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06_境外及港澳台调查报告 · 整合分片 part02

本片含 64 份报告。

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FD062642026_港澳台_火灾相关性筛选清单.md2026燃气/爆炸
FD062652026_港澳台_采集进度实时清单.md2026燃气/爆炸;危化/自燃
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FD062762005_英国邦斯菲尔德油库_12·11_火灾_调查报告.md2005化工/石化燃气/爆炸
FD062772005_英国邦斯菲尔德油库爆炸_12·11_火灾_调查报告.md2005化工/石化燃气/爆炸
FD062782009_英国_伦敦消防局_拉克纳尔公寓楼_火灾调查报告(英文).md2009电气
FD062792013_英国_train-fire-at-south-gosforth__18_2013_South_Gosforth.pdf2013
FD062802014_英国_uncontrolled-evacuation-of-a-london-underground-train-at-holland-park-station__R162014_140.pdf2014
FD062812015_英国_arcing-and-fire-at-windsor-eaton-riverside18_2015_WindsorEton_Riverside.pdf2015
FD062822015_英国_train-driver-receiving-a-severe-electric-shock-at-sutton-weaver__R072015_150624_Sutton_Wea.pdf2015
FD062832015_英国伦敦格伦费尔公寓大楼6·14火灾事故调查报告.md2015焊接/动火
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FD06222 | 2025_港澳台_香港大埔宏福苑-特别重大火灾事故调查报告(廉政公署完整报告).pdf

分类:06_境外及港澳台调查报告 | 年份:2025 | 地域:香港 | 严重程度:特别重大 | 场所: | 起火原因: | 来源格式:pdf

INDEPENDENT COMMISSION AGAINST CORRUPTION HONG KONG SPECIAL ADMINISTRATIVE REGION Report for the Independent Committee in relation to fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po January 2026

TABLE OF CONTENTS

Paragraph 1. THE ROLE OF THE ICAC

Statutory Responsibilities and Purview of ICAC 1 – 2

The Three-pronged Approach 3

Independent Oversight 4 – 5

The Nature of Corruption 6

CORRUPTION IN BUILDING RENOVATION WORKS Multiple Stakeholders 7 – 15

The Building Renovation Market 16 – 26

ICAC’s Strategy and Efforts in Combatting Corruption in Building Renovation Works 27

 Community Relations Department: Publicity and Educational Efforts 28

 Corruption Prevention Department: Systemic Prevention Work 29 – 32

 Operations Department: Law Enforcement Efforts 33 – 97

CONCLUSION Conclusion 98 – 101

1 CORRUPTION IN LARGE-SCALE BUILDING MAINTENANCE AND RENOVATION WORKS

THE ROLE OF THE ICAC Statutory Responsibilities and Purview of ICAC

The ICAC was established in 1974 under the Independent Commission Against Corruption Ordinance (Cap. 204) (ICACO) to combat corruption. Guaranteed by Article 57 of the Basic Law, the ICAC functions independently of the civil service and the Commissioner is directly accountable to the Chief Executive.

According to section 12 of the ICACO, the statutory duties of the ICAC include (a) to investigate complaints alleging corrupt practices, or alleged or suspected offences under the ICACO and the Prevention of Bribery Ordinance (Cap. 201) (POBO); (b) to examine the practices and procedures of Government departments and public bodies in order to facilitate the discovery of corrupt practices and to secure revision of work method or procedures which may be conducive to corrupt practices; and instruct, advise and assist any person, on the latter’s request, on ways in which corrupt practices may be eliminated; and (c) to educate the public against the evils of corruption, and enlist and foster public support in combatting corruption. In order to enhance the effectiveness of law enforcement work in combatting corruption, the ICAC is empowered under ICACO to also deal with certain scheduled offences (e.g. fraud, false accounting and conspiracy to defraud) and offences connected with or facilitated by corruption.

The Three-pronged Approach

In fulfilment of these statutory duties, the ICAC has since its establishment adopted a holistic three-pronged strategy in fighting corruption

2 through law enforcement, systemic corruption prevention and community education via the three functional departments, viz Operations Department, Corruption Prevention Department (CPD) and Community Relations Department (CRD). Over the past 50 years, this time-tested strategy which seeks to address both the symptoms and the root causes of corruption has kept Hong Kong’s corruption under control and built up a culture of probity with zero tolerance against corruption.

Independent Oversight

The work of the ICAC is scrutinised by four independent advisory committees each comprising, on top of a few ex-officio members, non-official chairman and members appointed by the Chief Executive. The Advisory Committee on Corruption oversees the overall operation and policy matters of the Commission, the Operations Review Committee (ORC) on the investigative work of the Operations Department, and the Corruption Prevention Advisory Committee and the Citizens Advisory Committee on Community Relations respectively on the preventive and education work of CPD and CRD1. All corruption investigations must be reported to the ORC for scrutiny. No investigation is concluded without the endorsement of the ORC.

This report delineates the enforcement, prevention and education work of the ICAC on large-scale building maintenance and renovation works2 (hereafter referred to as building renovations), identifies and examines the issues in the sector.

1 Reports of ICAC Advisory Committees included in the 2024 ICAC Annual Report https://www.icac.org.hk/icac/annual-report/2024/pdf/Reports_of_ICAC_Advisory_Committees.pdf 2 According to the amended Building Management Ordinance, which became effective on 13 July 2025, “large-scale maintenance procurement”, is defined as those with a proposed value exceeding, or likely to exceed, $30,000 per flat. These high-value procurements are governed by stricter statutory rules, including a threshold for in-person owner voting.

3 The Nature of Corruption

Before considering the relevant issues, it is first necessary to understand the nature of corruption. Corruption is seldom an end in itself, but rather a means to an end. It is usually a tool used by criminals to achieve their ultimate objectives. By its very nature, corruption is a secretive and insidious crime, and most people would never notice its existence. Unlike traditional crimes like murder or robbery, there is often no crime scene or readily apparent victim. The true victim of corruption, which is society as a whole, is generally unaware of being victimised. Invariably, both parties to a bribe, the offeror and the acceptor, stand to gain from corrupt quid pro quo arrangements. Both are satisfied customers and would have no incentive to disclose their corrupt dealings to outsiders. As can be seen in the case studies on ICAC’s enforcement efforts (paragraphs 44-96 below), these features take on their most extreme form in the building renovation sector, rendering corruption in the sector particularly difficult to crack. Before examining how criminals target that sector, the underlying landscape and its key features are discussed in detail below.

CORRUPTION IN BUILDING RENOVATION WORKS Multiple Stakeholders

The majority of Hong Kong’s seven and a half million inhabitants live and work in tens of thousands of densely populated multi-owned buildings. The ownership, rights and obligations between owners in the buildings (including scope of common areas), are set out in the relevant Deed of Mutual Covenant (DMC)3. Common areas (e.g. entrance lobbies) and facilities (e.g. fire service installations) in the buildings are co-owned by all owners, who are responsible for their maintenance

3 A DMC is a private contract entered into by the developer, the first purchaser and the property manager. It is registered in the Land Registry and binds all subsequent owners and property managers appointed from time to time.

4 and renovation. In addition to the owners, there are other stakeholders involved in building management and maintenance (BMM) matters4.

Property Owners and Owners’ Corporations

Property owners bear a collective responsibility for properly managing and maintaining the common areas of their buildings, and Owners’ Corporations (OCs) are usually formed as an independent corporate body set up under the Building Management Ordinance (Cap. 344) (BMO) to handle such matters. A Management Committee (MC) is elected by the OC to act on its behalf. In addition to the contractual obligations arising from the DMC, the BMO, a legal framework for the formation of OCs and MCs, sets out the powers and duties of OCs in respect of the management of the common parts of their buildings. MC members should be owners of units in the building. However, the secretary and treasurer need not be owners. Where a corporate property owner is appointed as an MC member, that corporate entity may appoint any person to act as its “authorised representative”5 who can be appointed key roles such as Chairman.

To assist OCs and MCs in carrying out their duties, the Home Affairs Department (HAD) has published “A Guide on Building Management Ordinance (Cap. 344)” 6, which outlines the main provisions of the BMO in layman’s terms.

Property Management Companies

In view of the wide range of matters arising in BMM, many OCs engage a property management company (PMC) to assist in the management of their buildings. As of early 2025, nearly 800 licensed PMCs and approximately 15,000

4 Building management oversees a building’s overall operation, including finances and other basic security and cleanliness aspects. Building maintenance focuses specifically on the physical upkeep of a building. Building management and maintenance are two closely related issues. https://www.bd.gov.hk/doc/en/resources/codes-and-references/code-and-design-manuals/bmg/ch3-1.pdf 5 Paragraph 11 of Schedule 2 of the BMO refers. 6https://www.buildingmgt.gov.hk/file_manager/en/documents/bmo_guide/a_guide_on_building_managemen t_ordinance_cap344_en.pdf

5 PMC staff provide property management services to over 2.4 million units of various types of properties in Hong Kong7, indicating a strong demand and reliance on property management services by property owners.

PMCs either are appointed as managers under the DMC or are appointed by owners on a service contract basis (i.e. management agreements) to undertake BMM responsibilities. Similar to OCs, PMCs must comply with financial and procurement-related requirements under the BMO. Schedule 7 of the BMO sets out the requirements with regard to the general duties of a PMC, which include financial arrangements and communications between owners, as well as the arrangements for procurement of goods, supplies and services. As such, PMCs are subject to statutory obligations under the BMO and the Property Management Services Ordinance (Cap. 626) (PMSO), as well as contractual duties under DMCs and management agreements with owners.

The PMSO, enacted in 2019, established a mandatory licensing regime for PMCs and all managerial or supervisory staff of PMCs, also referred to as Property Management Practitioners (PMPs). A PMC providing property management services to the buildings in Hong Kong is required to hold licences8 issued by the Property Management Services Authority (PMSA), which was established under PMSO to implement PMSO, ensuring PMCs and their PMPs meet prescribed standards of competence and integrity. PMSA also issues codes of practice and best practices, prescribes training requirements and carries out regulatory actions (e.g. revocation of licence) on disciplinary offences 9 , e.g. contravention of conditions imposed on the licence, misconduct or neglect in a

7 PMSA Annual Report 2024-2025, page 15 https://www.pmsa.org.hk/ebook/202405/en/15/ 8 PMSO prescribes seven categories of property management services, including (i) general management services; (ii) management of the environment; (iii) repair, maintenance and improvement; (iv) finance and asset management; (v) facility management; (vi) human resources management relating to personnel involved in the management of a property; (vii) legal services relating to the management of a property. PMCs providing two or more categories of services are required to be licensed. 9 In 2024-25, PMSA held in public a total of eight disciplinary hearings. Disciplinary actions taken including verbal warning, written reprimand, severe written reprimand and fine, etc. PMSA Annual Report 2024-2025, page 5 https://www.pmsa.org.hk/ebook/202405/en/4/

6 professional respect, thereby supporting the Government’s objective of professionalising the sector.

In the context of building renovation projects, PMCs and PMC staff play key roles alongside other stakeholders. Their operational proximity to both building renovations and day-to-day building management functions, such as coordinating OC meetings and related voting arrangements, as well as administering tendering processes, places them in positions of considerable influence over procurement decisions.

Consultants and Contractors

In view of the complexity of building renovation works, OCs always engage a consultant to carry out inspections to assess the condition of a building, determine the scope of repairs, manage tender selection exercises and oversee the renovation works at the site. For renovation works subject to statutory notices issued under the Mandatory Building Inspection Scheme (MBIS) 10, a Registered Inspector (RI) must be engaged to take up the role and fulfil the statutory duties as stipulated in the Buildings Ordinance (Cap.123) (BO), the Building (Minor Works) Regulation (Cap. 123N), the Buildings (Inspection and Repair) Regulation (Cap. 123P) (B(I&R)R) (paragraph 21 refers). Contractors are responsible for carrying out the actual renovation works. Pursuant to BO, contractors carrying out prescribed repair under MBIS must also be Buildings Department’s registered contractors (RCs), which must meet the technical requirements prescribed by the Buildings Department (BD)11.

10 https://www.bd.gov.hk/en/safety-inspection/mbis/index.html 11 The BO also requires building renovation works to be carried out by either Registered General Building Contractors or Registered Minor Works Contractors which must meet the technical requirements imposed by the BD for admission and retention onto the registers.

7 Other Stakeholders

In addition to those with direct involvement as mentioned above, the ecosystem surrounding building renovations involves a number of other stakeholders, including Government departments and public bodies. The ICAC deals with corruption and related criminal offences, whereas the Hong Kong Police Force (the Police) deals with criminal activities that are found in building renovations, such as triad involvement, and the Competition Commission (CC)12 deals with bid-rigging activities. The Urban Renewal Authority (URA) is responsible for implementing various supporting schemes to facilitate building rehabilitation. Other stakeholders include BD, HAD and PMSA, whose roles are mentioned in the respective parts of the report.

The Building Renovation Market

As buildings age, they naturally require regular maintenance and, on occasion, large-scale renovations. Owners may choose to undertake such renovations of their own volition, or be required to do so in accordance with existing legislation. The legal and regulatory regime mainly governing building renovations can be found in the BO, B(I&R)R and BMO. The BD is the custodian of the BO and its subsidiary regulations. HAD is the custodian of the BMO.

To tackle the long-standing problem of building neglect, the Government has launched various mandatory inspection schemes and subsidy schemes13 designed to ensure that private building owners discharge their legal

12 A Memorandum of Understanding (MOU) was signed between the ICAC and CC in December 2024 to facilitate future collaboration, which has included capacity building training and joint operations – see Case Study 3. 13 Other statutorily required building maintenance/improvement works include those on fire service installation and fire safety construction measures (enforced by the Fire Services Department and BD), lifts and escalators (by the Electrical and Mechanical Services Department), waterworks (by the Water Supplies Department), sewerage system (by Environmental Protection Department), etc. According to the information of the Development Bureau in 2023, the Government, since 2018, has injected over $19 billion through a number of subsidy schemes to assist property owners to carry out maintenance works in compliance with these statutory orders. https://www.devb.gov.hk/en/home/my_blog/index_id_1529.html?y=2023&p=1

8 statutory responsibilities for maintaining building safety. This report focuses on the framework established by the MBIS and its associated subsidy scheme Operation Building Bright (OBB) 2.0, which were launched in 2012 and 2018 respectively.

Under MBIS, BD selects target buildings aged 30 years or above (except domestic buildings not exceeding three storeys) using a risk-based approach with key factors such as building age, condition, and potential risk to the public. Owners of the selected buildings are issued with statutory notices requiring them to carry out prescribed inspections and repairs. Since the inception of MBIS, around 9,000 buildings, out of 20,000 buildings aged 30 years above in Hong Kong14, have been issued with MBIS statutory notices. In the past three years, around 600 MBIS notices were issued annually.15

OBB was first launched in 2009 to provide financial assistance to owners of old buildings to carry out repair works. In 2018, the Government tasked URA to implement OBB 2.0 16 to provide another round of subsidies. The Government has so far injected a total of $6 billion under OBB 2.0, and its third round of applications closed in September 2023.

OBB 2.0 aims to provide financial support for owner-occupiers of properties with a relatively low average annual rateable value17 to act in compliance with MBIS. Owners of buildings aged 40 or above can apply for OBB 2.0 subsidies regardless of whether the building is subject to MBIS order. Eligible applicants will be subsidised 80 per cent of the cost subject to a cap of $40,000 per unit. For elderly applicants aged 60 or above, they will be subsidised 100 per cent of the cost subject to a cap of $50,000 per unit. Under OBB 2.0, there are Category 1 buildings and

14 Secretary for Development’s opening speech at a Legislative Council meeting on 15.1.2026 https://www.info.gov.hk/gia/general/202601/15/P2026011500259.htm 15 BD’s Controlling Officer’s Report for the 2025/26 financial year, paragraph 7 https://www.budget.gov.hk/2025/eng/pdf/head082.pdf 16 https://www.brplatform.org.hk/en/subsidy-and-assistance/operation-building-bright-2-0 17 The average annual rateable value of domestic units in the building which sited in urban areas should not exceed HK$187,000 or should not exceed HK$143,000 if the building sited in the New Territories.

9 Category 2 buildings 18, with BD taking a more proactive role in the latter by exercising its statutory power to carry out the requisite inspection and repair works in default of owners who have difficulties in co-ordinating the works in compliance with MBIS.

Registered Inspectors (RI)

To implement the MBIS, the Government has since 2011 established the RI scheme specifically to provide a pool of accredited professionals comprising surveyors, engineers and architects. The intention of the RI scheme is to ensure the inspections and repairs mandated under the MBIS are carried out with technical rigour by qualified practitioners. The BO and B(I&R)R prescribe the provisions for the registration, appointment, control and duties of RIs. A Code of Practice 19 specifies the technical standards and procedural requirements for RIs when conducting inspections and repairs. As can be seen from BD’s publication “Layman’s Guide on Mandatory Building Inspection Scheme (Common Parts)”20, the RI plays arguably the most critical role before, during and after building renovations under the MBIS regime, which also means that he is most vulnerable to corrupt or other undue influence. According to the registers maintained by BD on its website, as at December 2025, about 600 persons were registered as RIs, of whom only 128 RIs had expressed an interest in providing MBIS services.21 The small pool of RIs available in the building renovation market heightens their vulnerability.

18 https://www.brplatform.org.hk/f/upload/13481/AN-OBB2.0_OO-ENG.pdf 19 https://www.bd.gov.hk/doc/en/resources/codes-and-references/code-and-design- manuals/CoP_MBIS_MWISe.pdf 20 https://www.bd.gov.hk/doc/en/resources/pamphlets-and-videos/LGMBISCP_e.pdf 21 https://www.bd.gov.hk/en/resources/online-tools/registers- search/registrationsearch.html?reg_type=RI(A),RI(E),RI(S)

10 Smart Tender Building Rehabilitation Facilitating Services Scheme

In 2016, the URA launched the “Smart Tender Building Rehabilitation Facilitating Services Scheme” (Smart Tender)22, a fee-based service scheme to provide technical support to owners in building rehabilitation projects. All private residential or composite (for both commercial and residential use) buildings not in single ownership (except buildings of three storeys or less and New Territories Exempted Houses) may use the Smart Tender services.

URA mandates the use of Smart Tender service for projects receiving Government subsidies. However, property owners not receiving Government subsidies can also use Smart Tender to procure service providers to carry out inspection services and repair works.

Under Smart Tender, URA provides a DIY toolkit that offers guidance on organising building repair and maintenance works. It also features an electronic tendering platform to facilitate the procurement of consultants and contractors. URA handles tender collection through a centralised and electronic approach, with a professional accountant (or independent professional) administering tender opening procedures. URA also engages independent professionals under term contracts, i.e. Building Surveying Consultants, to offer general advice during the tender stage, such as providing cost estimates for OCs’ reference.

To further address the issue of property owners or OCs lacking professional knowledge and experience in selecting service providers to carry out renovation works, and also the prolonged process for reaching a consensus, the URA launched a prequalification list of consultants and contractors in 2024.

Currently, the prequalification list comprises 71 consultancy firms and 108 contractors. Consultancy firms and contractors aiming for prequalification must

22 https://www.brplatform.org.hk/en/subsidy-and-assistance/smart-tender

11 meet a number of requirements, covering areas of technical competencies as well as certain integrity standards, such as no conviction records in the past five years under specified legislation, including POBO. However, the requirements rely largely on the applicant’s self-declaration.

ICAC’s Strategy and Efforts in Combatting Corruption in Building Renovation Works

Prevention is better than cure, and a comprehensive anti-corruption strategy cannot rely on enforcement actions alone. It must include the elements of education and prevention as core principles. The work of CRD and CPD in the building renovation sector is described below.

Community Relations Department: Publicity and Educational Efforts

CRD’s publicity and educational efforts on BMM aim to enhance stakeholders’ awareness and strengthen their ability to address corruption risks. On average, over 4,600 people from over 870 building management bodies including OCs were reached each year. The following initiatives are of note:

(a) CRD conducts proactive outreach to stakeholders in need, including newly established OCs, buildings served with repair orders, fire safety instructions, statutory notices for mandatory building inspections, and those that have successfully applied for various building safety and rehabilitation subsidy schemes, with a view to providing anti-corruption information and services. Over the past three years, CRD has issued over 4,000 letters to building management bodies, but the average response rate has remained low. It reflects the generally low level of interest in BMM matters among property owners and other stakeholders;

12 (b) There is active collaboration between the ICAC and HAD to disseminate probity messages to building management bodies and property owners with briefing sessions through HAD’s Central Platform on Building Management, district seminars, and feature articles in district Building Management Newsletter. In addition, the ICAC also proactively engages 18 District Councils, and OCs’ associations/alliances at the district level to promote integrity and gather feedback on the ICAC services;

(c) CRD has joined hands with the PMSA to enhance the professional ethics of the industry, and cooperates with relevant Government departments / organisations, including the BD, the Police, the URA, and other professional bodies, to promote integrity in BMM;

(d) CRD produces a wide range of reference materials, including toolkits, training videos, self-learning packages, feature articles, leaflets, and poster sets. These materials are uploaded to the ICAC’s “Integrity and Quality Building Management” thematic website to meet different stakeholders’ needs23;

(e) Enforcement actions are publicised through press releases and live- streamed press conferences where appropriate, to raise public awareness and vigilance against potential corruption risks in building renovations;

(f) In a recent drama series, ICAC Investigators (2024), one of the episodes featured the theme of building renovations in order to educate the general public against the evils of corruption in the sector;

(g) Advisory services are also available through the Integrity in Building Management Enquiry Hotline and its regional offices; and

23 ICAC Website “Integrity and Quality Building Management” https://bm.icac.hk/?lang=en

13 (h) Mindful of the fact that problems in the sector are long-standing and multi- faceted involving many stakeholders, the ICAC in June 2025 hosted the first ever Building Management Summit. This pulled together over 300 stakeholders, including representatives from a number of relevant Government departments, regulatory and professional bodies24 , District Council members from all 18 districts, OCs, property owners, and property management professionals. The summit served as a platform for direct exchange and cross-sector collaboration to tackle the problems.

Corruption Prevention Department: Systemic Prevention Work

CPD provides proactive and early-stage corruption prevention advice to relevant Government departments and public bodies in respect of their policies and initiatives regarding building renovations. This includes advice on registration of building professionals and contractors, as well as administration of the MBIS. CPD has also provided recommendations to HAD on legislative amendments to the BMO, including enhancement to procurement requirements (e.g. declarations of conflict of interest by stakeholders in tender exercises, particularly for building renovation projects) and improvements to proxy arrangements to prevent manipulation and falsification.

In situations where deeper systemic risks are identified (e.g. matters involving significant public interest, complex operational arrangements), CPD conducts targeted and comprehensive reviews of work systems and procedures of the Government departments and public bodies, through assignment studies. Such in‑depth studies are undertaken in accordance with CPD’s strategy of prioritising areas where systemic improvements can generate significant preventive impact, with the objective of enhancing governance and overall corruption‑prevention capability.

24 Buildings Department, Home Affairs Department, Hong Kong Police Force, Competition Commission, Property Management Services Authority, Urban Renewal Authority, Hong Kong Institute of Architects, Hong Kong Institution of Engineers and Hong Kong Institute of Surveyors.

14 31.

To support frontline implementation, CPD has developed a range of industry-specific preventive guidelines, toolkits and pamphlets that provide step‑by‑step guidance for OCs, PMCs and property owners on planning and managing building renovation projects 25 . These materials incorporate good-governance and integrity elements consistent with CPD’s partnership approach with regulatory authorities and professional bodies, and leverage the influence of these organisations to promote such principles to property owners. CPD has also organised training programmes to directly promote these integrity elements through active engagement with the sector, and help stakeholders implement sound governance practice.

However, no amount of educational material or preventative measures can be completely effective if unscrupulous elements deliberately circumvent the relevant requirements and guidelines. When that happens, it easily leads to complaints and allegations of corruption, bid-rigging, fraud and other illegal activities or improper conduct from property owners and others whose lives and livelihood are impacted by these criminals.

Operations Department: Law Enforcement Efforts

Corruption complaints concerning building renovations

Corruption complaints regarding BMM issues, which impact on the livelihood and well-being of the whole of the Hong Kong community, have for many years accounted for about 25% of all complaints made to the ICAC each year. Complaints relating to BMM can be divided into three main categories: building renovations, other maintenance and repair projects, and general property management matters (e.g. staff issues, building security, cleaning etc.). Most BMM

25 The CPD publications include (i) Building Maintenance Toolkit; (ii) Building Financial Management Toolkit; (iii) Building Management Toolkit; (iv) Property Management Corruption Prevention Red Flag; (v) Corruption Prevention Guide for Property Management Companies; and (vi) Corruption Prevention 101 – Building Maintenance Tips for Owners https://bm.icac.hk/Building_Maintenance_Toolkit.html?lang=en; https://bm.icac.hk/Pamphlets.html?lang=en

15 complaints comprise nothing more than the allegation based on suspicion, and generally lack any substantive supporting information.

The statistics below refer to complaints in respect of building renovations, which are the focus of this report, for the period 2023-2025.

Complaints

*A complaint may refer to a single block, or a single residential estate that comprises multiple blocks, and there may be more than one complaint about the same building / estate concerning different allegations.

Within the Operations Department, there is a dedicated group comprising around 50 investigating officers to deal with corruption complaints concerning BMM (including those relating to building renovations). Where necessary, officers from other investigation groups may be drawn to assist, or a task force may be set up to deal with major cases.

After the Operations Department receives a corruption complaint, a categorisation process takes place each working day at a meeting of the department’s directorate officers. Pursuable corruption complaints will be passed onto the investigation sections, while non-pursuable and non-corruption complaints may be referred to relevant departments or agencies for necessary actions, as appropriate.

In order to encourage the public to report corruption and because of the insidious nature of corruption as mentioned above, a low threshold is deliberately adopted for classification of pursuable complaints. Members of the public may report corruption simply based on their own suspicions, without the need to supply any corroborating evidence to support their allegations. Anonymous complaints may 2023 2024 2025 No. of corruption complaints* 76 63 100 No. of pursuable complaints* 70 57 93

16 also be investigated by investigation sections, depending on the level of information provided.

Focusing on the complaints regarding building renovations over the last three years (2023-2025), the figures above show that the Operations Department launched formal investigations in respect of 220 out of 239 complaints (or 92%). Due to the low threshold of launching an investigation, many complaints were investigated despite limited substance. This is because it is difficult to judge the substance of a case based merely on the surface of an allegation, so the ICAC will normally open an investigation when a traceable complainant makes a corruption allegation. Whether a case merits the allocation of more resources and subsequent in-depth investigation depends on the amount and reliability of information provided by the complainant, the findings of preliminary enquiries, and other factors such as previous investigations or other useful intelligence.

The role of the investigation sections is to find out whether the corruption allegation has substance and if so, who is involved, with the aim of gathering evidence to determine whether a criminal prosecution should be mounted.

For the purpose of investigation into corruption and its related offences, investigating officers are empowered by the law or, where appropriate, with court authorisation, to exercise powers of arrest, detention, search, access to accounts and tax records, restraint on assets, etc.

Under Article 63 of the Basic Law, the Department of Justice (DoJ) shall control criminal prosecutions, free from any interference. By the separation of investigation and prosecutions powers, the ICAC conducts investigations and analyses, and then forwards the case evidence to the DoJ for consideration of mounting a prosecution. Under the POBO, the consent of the Secretary for Justice is required for the prosecution of the offences listed in Part II of the POBO, which includes the main corruption offences of solicitation or acceptance of advantages,

17 bribery, corrupt transactions with agents and possession of unexplained property. Figures in relation to arrests and prosecutions concerning building renovations for the last three years are shown below.

Arrests and Prosecutions

*The number of persons prosecuted may may not refer to the persons arrested in the same year as it takes time to proceed from investigation to prosecution.

Early Intervention

According to the Prosecution Code, there must be legally sufficient evidence to support a prosecution, i.e. the evidence is admissible and reliable, and demonstrate that there is a reasonable prospect of conviction. This is a high threshold. The prosecution rates shown above reflect inherent challenges in investigating these cases. Therefore, the ICAC has to assess the likelihood of securing sufficient evidence to charge suspects, and balance this against the interests of the building owners. So, beyond conducting investigations and mounting prosecutions, the Operations Department also adopts early intervention tactics, when issues appear to be looming in a particular building or estate but where, despite suspicion, evidence is unlikely to be obtained. The aim is to alert building owners to possible risks of corruption, bid-rigging and/or other fraudulent activities, and to deter and frustrate criminal syndicates from pursuing their illicit plan. Over the last three years, the ICAC carried out early intervention in a total of 20 cases, involving 32 buildings / estates, in order to frustrate impending corrupt activities in the building renovation sector.

2023 2024 2025 No. of persons arrested 58 34 45 No. of persons prosecuted* 24 0 0

18 43.

The case studies below are a sample of the investigations conducted by ICAC into the building renovation sector. They highlight the nature of corruption and other criminal and illicit activities in the sector.

Case Study 1

In July 2013, a building renovation project of a private residential estate was awarded to a contractor at $262M. After that, a number of property owners made complaints to the ICAC alleging possible corruption in the project. However, the allegations were based mainly on the high contract price of the project and no useful information was provided to support the suspicion. Investigation of these complaints did not yield any fruitful results.

A few months later, a middleman came forward to make a report to the ICAC. Under caution, the middleman admitted his role in assisting the contractor to secure the renovation project. According to the middleman, other parties involved included some PMC staff, MC members as well as the consultant, who had secured his appointment for the project at an unreasonably low price of $880,000 (i.e. 0.34% of the project sum). Most bribe payments would be paid in cash and through middlemen. A number of dummy companies were also set up to participate and rig the tender exercises. The abovementioned compromised parties would allegedly share kickbacks from the contractor totalling around 17.5% of the project sum, i.e. $46 million. The middleman confessed that he reported the matter to the ICAC after failing to obtain his share of the payment.

During his report to the ICAC, the middleman further admitted involvement in scams at two other residential estates involving different syndicates. Similar deceptive and corrupt means were said to be employed by the other two syndicates.

Protracted enquiries by the ICAC identified the suspects and more associates, as well as some suspicious fund flows. An arrest and search operation

19 was mounted. Examination of voluminous seizures revealed that possible false accounting and business records were used to conceal suspected bribe payments. However, no witnesses were available to give evidence about the records, or otherwise against the syndicate.

Follow up investigation revealed suspicious bank transactions between an associate of the contractor and a maintenance manager of the PMC of the estate. Under caution, the maintenance manager admitted having accepted $200,000 for disclosing the tender information of other bidders to the associate, who however denied the allegation.

The middleman and the maintenance manager were charged with corruption offences and convicted upon their own guilty plea. The middleman, who was involved in corruption schemes across three residential estates, was sentenced to 35 months’ imprisonment after pleading guilty to four corruption charges. The maintenance manager was sentenced to six months’ imprisonment.

Subsequently, the middleman provided a non-prejudicial statement seeking to implicate other syndicate members. However, as his evidence was uncorroborated, and given his dubious credibility, the DoJ considered there was no reasonable prospect of convicting his accomplices, and hence did not advise prosecution.

This case exposed deeply embedded, organized crime in the building renovation sector. Criminals used cash, middlemen, dummy firms, and false records to evade detection. Protracted enquiries could not gather direct evidence against key syndicate members and, even when resorting to evidence from an accomplice, such evidence was tainted and considered unreliable for prosecution.

While most culprits escaped justice, the case was widely publicised and reported in the media, thus raising public awareness of possible corruption and bid- 20 rigging activities in the building renovation sector. On the other hand, the suspected bogus business transactions were subsequently referred to the Inland Revenue Department for follow-up on tax matters, in an effort to deter such financial fraud. Case Study 2 Paragraphs 53-59 refer to Operation “Fire Net”. Cases are pending trial and the contents of these paragraphs are sub-judice. ICAC Press Conferences: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6CDPv2uHm3w https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-Ih8vLJPlA Case Study 3 Paragraphs 60-66 refer to Operation “Shotgun”. Investigation is ongoing and disclosure of these paragraphs may prejudice ongoing enquiries. ICAC Press Conference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K53MSR4QZfI ICAC Press Releases at Annexes A and B Case Study 4 67. This case involved a public housing estate under the Tenants Purchase Scheme, whereby 84% of the flats at the estate were sold to the tenants while the remainder were owned by the Government, represented by the Housing Department (HD), for public rental purposes. As a representative of the Government, one HD officer was a member of the MC of the estate, but HD policy was that the officer would refrain from voting on routine management matters so as to remain neutral.

21 68.

In June 2021, upon receipt of an MBIS order, the MC of the estate resolved to conduct a building renovation project and to conduct an open tender, instead of using the Smart Tender services of URA, to select consultant and contractor for the project. The MC conducted the tender exercise and appointed a consultancy firm to supervise the contract. The consultant subsequently gave an estimated cost of $171 million for the project. During the owners’ meeting for the selection of a contractor, many property owners considered that the price was unreasonably high and criticised the MC for not using the Smart Tender scheme of URA. Some property owners suspected proxy manipulation was involved in the owners’ meeting, which was then called off after much dispute.

At the same time, the ICAC received complaints from some property owners, alleging possible corruption between the MC members, including the Chairman and the consultant, based on the property owners’ dissatisfaction with the project as mentioned above. Meanwhile, due to strong opposition from property owners, no further owners’ meeting could be convened to select the contractor. On the other hand, property owners also reported to the Police suspected fraudulent activities related to the alleged proxy manipulation.

Protracted enquiries by the ICAC revealed that on several occasions, two triad members, who had business ties with the consultancy firm and some of the contractors bidding for the project, had met certain MC Members and a middleman. The triad pair might have given advice on how to convene an owners’ meeting to ensure that the tender exercise would result in the selection of the contractor that they had favoured. It also transpired that the pair might have assisted the MC Members to collect proxies from some property owners, in order to facilitate them to manipulate voting at the owners’ meetings to achieve outcomes in their favour.

Knowing that there would be no turning back once a contractor was selected, and that no amount of subsequent enforcement action would be able to protect the well-being of the property owners, ICAC apprised HD of the situation.

22 HD eventually agreed to participate in the vote at an owners’ meeting. In the end, the property owners resolved by a majority of votes to terminate the contract with the consultancy firm and re-tender for the project through the Smart Tender platform.

An arrest and search operation was then mounted by the ICAC. No useful evidence was unearthed during the operation and legal advice precluded prosecution due to a lack of evidence to prove corruption or other crimes. Afterwards, the case was referred to HAD and the HD for their actions in respect of the proxy management matter. In respect of the investigation by the Police on proxy manipulation, it was understood that no prosecution was initiated as there was no evidence to prove who had handled or submitted the proxies in question.

This case showed how undue influence could be exerted on an MC by triad members. In addition, it demonstrated that in Tenants Purchase Scheme estates, HD as a major landlord can play an important proactive role in safeguarding the integrity of building renovation projects. In this case, although extensive investigation could not secure sufficient evidence to prosecute the suspects, HD had exercised its voting rights in order to frustrate the syndicate in the execution of its scheme, thereby triggering a re-tender for the project using the Smart Tender platform. While Smart Tender is not fool-proof, the fact that the syndicate had tried every means to avoid using it suggested that it could be a useful barrier to some criminals.

Case Study 5

Paragraphs 74-78 refer to an ongoing ICAC investigation. Disclosure of these paragraphs may prejudice ongoing enquiries.

Case Study 6

Paragraphs 79-83 refer to an ongoing ICAC investigation. Disclosure of these paragraphs may prejudice ongoing enquiries.

23 Case Study 7

The PMC of one old private residential building also managed several other aged private residential buildings where renovation projects were being carried out or about to be carried out. In December 2023, the ICAC received an anonymous complaint alleging that the proprietor of the PMC had solicited or accepted bribes of 3% to 5% of the project sums from the consultants and contractors, in return for his assistance in securing renovation projects for the latter. According to the complaint, in order to facilitate the corrupt arrangement, the proprietor of the PMC required the contractors to purchase certain materials for the project from a designated supplier at an inflated price, with the inflated amount to be reverted as bribes to the proprietor. Based on ICAC’s assessment, an investigation was opened even though the complainant was anonymous.

Investigation revealed that, in a renovation project of the first building, the contractor had in fact purchased the materials from the designated supplier, and that a family member of the PMC proprietor had a financial interest in that supplier. However, protracted enquiries could not reveal any payment of bribes or suspicious contacts between the proprietor of the PMC, and the relevant consultants and contractors some of whom had triad background.

ICAC did not reveal any evidence to implicate the suspects in the corrupt arrangement. With regard to the potential conflict of interest arising from the financial interest of the PMC proprietor’s family in the materials supplier, the MC confirmed that they had no system in place to deal with such conflicts of interest.

Knowing that tender exercises were ongoing for renovation projects at four other private residential buildings managed by the PMC, the ICAC proactively approached the MCs of these buildings and alerted them to the risks of corruption involved in the tender exercises.

24 88.

Although the investigation was based on information supplied anonymously, it revealed possible corrupt involvement of the proprietor of a PMC in the tender exercises. The investigation could not secure sufficient evidence to initiate a prosecution, so an early intervention strategy was adopted to alert the MCs of the four other buildings managed by the same PMC to the risks of corruption. The MC also lacked the relevant knowledge to implement a system to deal with potential conflicts of interest26. Some of the buildings in this case also involved the MBIS, OBB 2.0 funding and use of the Smart Tender platform.

Case Study 8

Paragraphs 89-94 refer to an ongoing ICAC investigation. Disclosure of these paragraphs may prejudice ongoing enquiries. ICAC Press Release at Annex C

Summary

Even though the Smart Tender scheme was deployed in several of the renovation projects involved in these investigations, there was ample evidence of blatant manipulation of tender exercises to appoint consultants to oversee the projects, with the bids consistently being unreasonably low. On occasion, the RI appointed by the consultant to oversee the project was in fact a mere dummy, who exercised little or no supervision over the project, and was only appointed to satisfy the statutory requirements imposed under the BO. In many instances the contractor was often part of a crime syndicate with triad connection, who would collude with the consultant and other contractors to rig the bids, corrupt members of the MC and PMC, or deploy other illegal means (e.g. faking proxies) in order to manipulate the selection of the contractor for the project.

26 This situation has been overtaken by events since the BMO amendments that took effect on 13 July 2025. Now a responsible person for the procurement of large-scale building renovations has to make a declaration of any pecuniary or other personal interest in relevant suppliers.

25 96.

However, as will have become obvious from the investigations described, criminal activities in building renovations are inherently difficult to investigate and prosecute despite protracted investigative efforts, due to its secretive and syndicated nature. Corruption, undeclared conflicts of interest, fraud and bid- rigging are often hidden behind layers of intermediaries and shell companies. Infights and disputes always complicate the issue. The illicit payments are customarily made in cash making it difficult to trace illicit funds, let alone proving its corrupt purpose. Potential witnesses, if any (including property owners or junior staff members of contractors, consultants and PMCs), may fear retaliation especially when triads are involved. They are therefore often reluctant to come forward to assist. When there is not enough evidence to meet the high standard of proof required, criminal prosecution becomes impossible. Therefore, the ICAC also adopts a proactive approach intervention strategy to disrupt impending illegal activities taking into account the overall interests of property owners.

The ICAC has on different occasions learnt from senior office bearers of the professional bodies representing surveyors, engineers and architects registered in Hong Kong that their members are unwilling to join the building renovation industry. These and other similar anecdotal accounts strongly suggest that the industry is dominated by unscrupulous operators, many with triad or dubious background, which has deterred ordinary and innocent professionals from joining the industry due to intimidation and unfair competition (i.e. unrealistically low consultancy fees).

CONCLUSION

The building renovation sector in Hong Kong has become a huge and highly lucrative market, as a result of the confluence of legal and regulatory maintenance requirements and the continual funding sustained by property owners’ contributions and substantial Government subsidies under various rehabilitation

26 schemes. This high-value environment operates largely within a framework that is built on an honour system, which relies on trust and integrity on the part of the consultants and contractors to function. It however contains inherent and apparent structural vulnerabilities. The primary legal responsibility for maintenance of building lies with the property owners but, through no fault of their own, they often lack the specialized technical expertise and experience required to plan and oversee complex renovation projects. As a loose entity with collective responsibility, it is also challenging for property owners to reach a consensus and hence disputes are not uncommon.

This combination of high financial incentives and structural gaps has allowed the market to be infiltrated by unscrupulous operators. Organized syndicates, employing illicit methods such as corruption, triad tactics, bid-rigging and fraud to manipulate the tendering processes, are driven by the potential profits to seek a dominant market share. The presence and tactics of these actors have created an uneven playing field, leading many honest and reputable professionals to actively decline participating in the market because of concerns over unfair competition and professional integrity.

The result is a self-perpetuating cycle: the withdrawal of ethical professionals further distorts the ecosystem in favour of nefarious elements, limiting choices for property owners and entrenching the dominance of problematic service providers. This cycle cannot be broken and reversed without targeted intervention. Therefore, any proposed measures to rectify the situation must be designed to disrupt and drive out the bad players on one hand, and on the other to create a fair and attractive environment that encourages good players to join the industry, so as to rebuild public confidence. 27 101. For its part, the ICAC will continue to adopt the three-pronged strategy. Community education and systemic prevention work remain vital for strengthening the capacity and resilience of property owners and others to fight corruption and bid- rigging, by raising public awareness and strengthening procedural safeguards to plug loopholes in the system. On the enforcement side, the overall objective is to make corruption in the building renovation sector a high-risk crime which will create the deterrent effect to drive out the bad players. Despite inherent challenges in dealing with complex and syndicated crime in the sector, ICAC will continue to proactively and vigilantly investigate all allegations of corruption and seek to prosecute the offenders whenever possible. At the same time, early intervention strategies will also be actively deployed when appropriate to frustrate corrupt schemes before they can negatively impact on property owners. Given that we are fighting a multi-faceted problem, enhanced inter-agency collaboration and intelligence exchange with the CC and other stakeholder agencies will also be key priorities.

Independent Commission Against Corruption January 2026

Post-report note: Between February and May 2026, the ICAC mounted three major law enforcement operations against corrupt syndicates targeting building maintenance projects, including Operation “Lion Rock” and Joint Operation “Scabbard” with the Police (ICAC Press Releases at Annexes D to F). For Case Study 3, a further Press Release in relation to charging of suspects was issued by the ICAC on 25 March 2026 (Annex G).

INDEPENDENT COMMISSION AGAINST CORRUPTION 廉政 公 署 2024 年4 月18 日 新聞稿 聯合新聞稿:廉署與競委會首次採取聯合行動 搗破樓宇維修工程 貪污及圍標集團拘20 人 廉政公署(廉署)與競爭事務委員會(競委會)過去兩日(4 月16 日及17 日) 首次採取聯合行動,搗破一個新冒起的樓宇維修工程貪污及圍標 集團。廉署在聯合行動中拘捕20 名人士,分別為17 男3 女,年齡介 乎36 歲至70 歲,包括該集團的主腦及骨幹成員,涉及工程承辦商、 工程顧問、中間人、業主立案法團成員以及物業管理公司職員。 廉署與競委會於聯合行動中,根據法庭手令搜查了共約40 個處所, 包括多間工程承辦商、顧問公司及物業管理公司的辦公室,以及涉 案人士的住所等,並檢走多項證物,包括多部電腦及手提電話,以 及與樓宇維修工程相關的招標文件等。 在今次行動中,競委會行使了其強制權力,除了持法庭手令搜查處 所,亦要求有關各方交出文件和資料。行動期間,有個別人士拒絕 提供有關資料,妨礙競委會的調查工作,此為《競爭條例》第52 條 及第54 條所訂明的刑事罪行,競委會會作出跟進。 涉案公司及人士涉嫌行賄受賄以及從事反競爭行為,藉此操控樓宇 維修工程的招標程序,將工程標價誇大,協助與集團有關的承辦商 取得工程及顧問合約,並操控監督維修工程及發放工程費用,違反 《防止賄賂條例》第9 條及《競爭條例》的「第一行為守則」。 行動共涉及兩個位於港島的住宅屋苑及商住樓宇,以及四個位於新 界的住宅屋苑及工業大廈的多項維修工程項目,合約總值約1.8 億元, 個別合約金額由數百萬元至數千萬元不等。個別工程項目懷疑涉及 賄款逾100 萬元。其中一半涉案的維修工程合約仍未批出,而其餘的 維修工程則早於廉署及競委會展開調查前已經開始進行。 …/2 Annex A

廉署及競委會相信集團已被瓦解,但由於調查仍在進行,不排除再 採取執法行動。廉署及競委會現階段不會就有關案件作進一步評論。 今次廉署與競委會首次採取聯合行動,充分展現出雙方決心打擊涉 及樓宇維修的貪污及潛在反競爭行為。廉署及競委會會繼續與其他 執法部門及相關機構保持緊密聯繫,確保樓宇維修業的廉潔及公平 競爭,保障業主權益。

調查源自有熱心市民早前向廉署舉報涉及樓宇維修的貪污投訴,廉 署經深入調查後發現上述貪污及圍標集團,並揭發該集團涉及其他 屋苑/樓宇的維修工程。而競委會早前亦接獲情報,指有涉案的公 司於多個樓宇維修工程中,從事反競爭行為。競委會及後深入跟進, 並信納有合理因由懷疑有關項目已成為合謀的目標,因而將個案提 升至調查階段。

廉署呼籲,如業主或任何人士懷疑樓宇維修工程涉及貪污,應立即 向廉署舉報或查詢。廉署24 小時貪污舉報熱線:25 266 366。

競委會呼籲任何人士,如可就個案或有關反競爭行為提供資料,請 盡快透過電話(3462 2118)或電郵(complaints@compcomm.hk)與競 委會聯絡。競委會會將收到的所有資料保密,包括資料提供者的身 份。而認為自己可能已從事或牽涉入合謀行為的人士,則應盡快聯 絡競委會申請寬待或提供合作(寬待熱線:3996 8010、電郵: leniency@compcomm.hk)。

廉署一直以執法、預防及教育的「三管齊下」策略,打擊涉及樓宇 管理業的貪污情況。廉署繼續主動接觸大廈管理組織,呼籲業主積 極參與樓宇管理事務,對維修項目的貪污風險提高警惕。此外,廉 署與相關政府部門、監管機構、專業團體及商會等合辦各類誠信培 訓,加強業界人士的防貪能力建設,拒絕貪污誘惑。廉署亦製作了 多元實用的防貪教育資源並上載於廉署「誠信優質樓宇管理」專題 網站(bm.icac.hk),同時亦設有誠信樓宇管理諮詢熱線2929 4555, 歡迎市民查詢。

廉署最近編製了《防貪攻略 – 樓宇維修》業主篇單張,列出在樓宇 維修工程中業主要留意的事項,並提供相關防貪建議及有用資料。 市民現可於廉署防貪諮詢服務網頁(cpas.icac.hk)下載有關單張。

…/3

Annex A

樓宇維修是全港業主非常關心的議題,競委會一直主動跟進涉及相 關市場的個案。包括圍標在內的合謀行為,在《競爭條例》下屬於 嚴重反競爭行為,除了採取執法行動外,競委會一直積極推行宣傳 教育,以提升公眾對圍標這議題的認知,及協助採購人員加強防範, 當中包括於網站推出一系列教育資源,同時亦積極接觸各區人士, 出席由不同政府部門、區議會及公營機構舉辦的地區活動,向業主 及物業管理人員作講解。 另外,競委會亦推出了一套「不合謀條款」範本,供採購人員加入 其招標文件及採購合約內,以減低他們在採購過程中面對反競爭行 爲的風險。該條款旨在警告競投者不得作出反競爭安排,以及作出 這些安排的後果,一旦有違反條款的情況,亦可為採購方提供清晰、 直接的合約保障。

(完)

April 18, 2024

Press release

Joint press release: Twenty netted, syndicate smashed in ICAC and Competition Commission first joint operation against corruption and tender- rigging over building maintenance

The ICAC and the Competition Commission conducted their first joint operation in the past two days (April 16 and 17), neutralising a newly-rising syndicate engaging in corruption and tender-rigging in relation to building maintenance. In the joint operation, the ICAC arrested 20 persons, namely 17 men and three women aged between 36 and 70, including the mastermind and backbone members of the syndicate. The arrestees included project contractors, project consultants, middlemen, members of Incorporated Owners and members of property management companies.

In the joint operation, search warrants were executed by the ICAC and the Competition Commission to conduct searches at about 40 premises, including offices of the aforementioned project contractors, consultancies and property management companies, as well as residences of the individuals concerned. Various exhibits were also seized, including computers, mobile phones, and tendering documents relating to building maintenance projects, etc. …/4 Annex A

The Competition Commission has exercised its compulsory powers in the operation. In addition to searching premises with warrants, it also requested relevant parties to produce documents and information. During the course of the operation, certain individuals had refused to provide relevant information. The Competition Commission will follow up on this obstruction of its investigation powers, which is criminal in nature under Sections 52 and 54 of the Competition Ordinance. The companies and individuals concerned were alleged to have engaged in corruption and anti-competitive activities, contravening Section 9 of the Prevention of Bribery Ordinance and the First Conduct Rule of the Competition Ordinance. Through bribery means, they had allegedly manipulated the tendering exercises of building maintenance projects, exaggerated contracts sums, assisted associated contractors to secure maintenance projects and consultancy contracts, and manipulated project supervision and project payment release.

The operation involved renovation projects of a residential estate and a residential- commercial composite building on Hong Kong Island, as well as four residential estates and industrial buildings in the New Territories. Individual contracts of such renovation projects worth from several millions to several tens of millions dollars, totalling around $180 million. It is alleged that bribe payments of individual projects amounted to over $1 million. Half of the renovation projects were yet to be awarded, while works of the remaining projects had been launched prior to the commencement of the ICAC and Competition Commission investigations.

The ICAC and the Competition Commission believe that the syndicate concerned has been neutralised. As inquiries are ongoing, further law enforcement actions will not be ruled out. No further comment on the case will be made by the ICAC and the Competition Commission at this stage.

The joint operation conducted by the ICAC and the Competition Commission demonstrated the determination of the two agencies in cracking down corruption and potential anti-competitive activities in building maintenance. The two agencies will continue to maintain close liaison with other law enforcement agencies and related authorities to ensure a clean and level-playing field for the building maintenance industry and to safeguard the rights of property owners.

…/5

Annex A

The investigations arose from a corruption complaint in relation to building maintenance lodged with the ICAC by members of the public. In-depth inquiries by the ICAC uncovered the aforementioned syndicate and their alleged involvement in other residential estates and buildings. Meanwhile, the Competition Commission had also received intelligence earlier alleging anti-competitive conduct in relation to various building maintenance projects. The Competition Commission followed up on the case and was satisfied that there was reasonable cause to suspect that the concerned projects had been the target of collusion. The Competition Commission therefore decided to escalate the case to the investigation phase. The ICAC calls on property owners and members of the public that, should they suspect corruption is involved in building maintenance, they should make enquiries or report to the ICAC. The ICAC’s report corruption hotline: 25 266 366.

The Competition Commission calls on anyone who can provide information on the matter or the relevant practices to contact the Competition Commission as soon as possible by telephone on 3462 2118 or by e-mail at complaints@compcomm.hk. The Competition Commission will keep any information provided, including the identity of informants, confidential. Those who consider that they may have engaged or been involved in cartel conduct should approach the Commission as soon as possible for leniency or co-operation (Leniency Hotline: 3996 8010; e-mail: leniency@compcomm.hk).

The ICAC has adopted a three-pronged approach of enforcement, prevention and education in fighting corruption in relation to the building management industry. The ICAC will continue to proactively approach building management bodies and encourage flat owners to stay vigilant against corruption in renovation works through active participation in building management. In collaboration with different government departments, professional bodies, regulators and trade associations, the ICAC will continue to organise integrity training to enhance practitioners’ anti- corruption capacity and resistance to bribery temptations. The ICAC has also produced a wide range of practical education resources which are available in the Integrity and Quality Building Management website (bm.icac.hk). Citizens are also welcome to call the Integrity Building Management Enquiry Hotline at 2929 4555 for ICAC services.

…/6

Annex A

The ICAC has recently compiled the “Corruption Prevention 101 – Building Maintenance Tips for Owners” leaflet, which lists out the key points-to-note in relation to building maintenance projects, and provides relevant corruption prevention suggestions and information. Members of the public can now download the leaflet from the ICAC Corruption Prevention Advisory Service webpage (cpas.icac.hk). Building maintenance has been a matter of great concern for property owners in Hong Kong, and the Competition Commission has been proactively following up on cases in the relevant market. Cartel conduct such as bid-rigging, is specified as a serious anti-competitive conduct under the Competition Ordinance. In addition to enforcement actions, the Competition Commission has been actively launching publicity and educational initiatives to raise public awareness of such anti- competitive conduct, and to assist procurers in strengthening their preventive efforts. Apart from rolling out a series of educational resources on its website, the Competition Commission also reaches out to the community by speaking at briefings organised by different government departments, District Councils and public bodies targeting property owners and property management practitioners across different districts in Hong Kong.

Separately, the Competition Commission has also published a set of model “Non- collusion Clauses” for procurers to incorporate into their invitation to bid documents and contracts, with a view to reducing their exposure to anti-competitive conduct during procurement exercises. In essence, the “Non-collusion Clauses” serve to warn bidders of the prohibition against, and consequences of, entering into anti- competitive arrangements, as well as to provide a clear and straightforward contractual remedy for procurers in the event that these clauses have been breached.

X X X Annex A

INDEPENDENT COMMISSION AGAINST CORRUPTION 廉政 公 署 2024 年8 月26 日 新聞稿 廉署與競委會再度展開聯合行動 打擊樓宇維修工程貪污圍標 廉政公署(廉署)與競爭事務委員會(競委會)一連兩日(8 月21 日及22 日)展開聯合行動。今次行動是繼4 月中兩個機構首次進行代號「獵 槍」的聯合行動打擊一個新冒起的貪污圍標集團後,經過四個月深 入調查,詳細分析所收集到的證據,發現該集團有其他涉嫌貪污和 圍標行為,遂展開進一步執法行動。 廉署於是次行動再拘捕5 人和會見22 人,包括工程承辦商、工程顧 問、中間人、物業管理公司及業主立案法團成員。 兩個機構在聯合行動中根據法庭手令搜查了共約20 個地點,包括多 間工程承辦商及顧問公司的辦公室,涉案人士的住所等,並檢走多 項證物。競委會亦行使了其強制權力,要求有關公司和人士交出文 件和資料,以及出席競委會的聆訊以提供相關資料。 涉案公司及人士涉嫌行賄受賄以及從事反競爭行為,藉此操控樓宇 維修工程的招標程序,將工程標價誇大,協助與集團有關的承辦商 取得工程合約。 是次廉署調查,主要針對兩個位於港島的住宅屋苑之維修工程,懷 疑涉及貪污罪行,工程合約合共約1.4 億港元。兩個屋苑均有該集團 骨幹成員涉嫌透過中間人,向業主立案法團成員提供利益,以確保 該集團控制的兩間建築工程公司,分別取得兩個屋苑的維修工程合 約,涉嫌違反《防止賄賂條例》第9 條。涉案的維修工程並未執行。 而競委會今次行動涉及38 個分別位於港島、九龍及新界的住宅屋苑/ 大廈及工業大廈的維修工程,涉案工程合約總值逾10 億港元,個別 合約金額達2.6 億港元,部份維修工程合約仍未批出,部份合約則已 被推翻,而個別維修工程早於競委會展開調查前已經開始進行。 …/2 Annex B

在該38 個住宅屋苑/大廈及工廈的維修工程招標期間,涉案公司及人 士涉嫌直接,或透過中間人交換並協調投標價格,部分工程承辦商 則作掩護式投標,以操控投標結果。有關行為構成圍標、合謀定價 及交換影響競爭的敏感資料,違反《競爭條例》下的「第一行為守 則」。 由於調查仍在進行,廉署及競委會現階段不會就有關案件作進一步 評論。

連串的聯合執法行動,展現了廉署與競委會決心捍衛樓宇維修業界 廉潔及公平競爭的環境,絕不姑息有關貪污和反競爭行為。兩個機 構會繼續與其他執法部門及相關機構緊密合作,竭力打擊相關的犯 罪份子,保障全港業主的權益。

廉署呼籲,如業主或任何人士懷疑樓宇維修工程涉及貪污,應立即 向廉署舉報或查詢。廉署24 小時貪污舉報熱線:25 266 366。競委 會呼籲任何人士,如可就個案或有關反競爭行為提供資料,請盡快 透過電話(3462 2118)或電郵(complaints@compcomm.hk)與競委會 聯絡,而認為自己可能已從事或牽涉入合謀行為的人士,則應盡快 聯絡競委會申請寬待或提供合作(寬待熱線:3996 8010、電郵: leniency@compcomm.hk)。

廉署一直嚴厲執法打擊涉及樓宇管理界的貪污問題,同時以制度預 防及宣傳教育,加强樓宇管理組織及業主抵禦貪污的能力。廉署將 繼續主動接觸大廈管理組織,及早介入懷疑有貪污風險的大廈維修 工程,呼籲業主積極參與樓宇管理事務,對維修項目的貪污風險提 高警惕。針對樓宇維修工程中常見的貪污風險,廉署編製及派發了 《防貪攻略–樓宇維修》單張,為業主提供防貪建議及相關資料。 市民可於廉署防貪諮詢服務網頁(cpas.icac.hk)下載有關單張。此外, 廉署與相關政府部門、監管機構、專業團體及商會等合辦各類培訓 及講座,提升業界人士的專業誠信水平,提醒他們應堅拒貪污誘惑。 廉署亦製作了多元實用的防貪教育資源並上載於廉署「誠信優質樓 宇管理」專題網站(bm.icac.hk),同時亦設有誠信樓宇管理諮詢熱線 2929 4555,歡迎市民查詢。

除執法外,競委會一直透過宣傳教育,加強公眾對圍標及其他合謀 行為的認知,同時亦協助採購人員加強防範,當中包括於網站推出 一系列教育資源,並積極接觸各區人士。過去一年,競委會出席了 19 個關於樓宇維修及管理的講座,接觸不同地區的業主、物業管理 人員,以及相關政府部門及公營機構,重點宣揚打擊圍標的訊息。 …/3 Annex B

此外,競委會亦推出了一套「不合謀條款」範本,供採購人員加入 其招標文件及採購合約內,以減低他們在採購過程中面對反競爭行 爲的風險。該條款旨在警告競投者不得作出反競爭安排,以及作出 這些安排的後果,一旦出現違反條款的情況,亦可為採購方提供清 晰、直接的合約保障。該範本備有中、英文版本,採購人員可於競 委會網站www.compcomm.hk 下載使用。 (完)

August 26, 2024

Press release

ICAC and Competition Commission conduct second joint operation against corruption and bid-rigging over building maintenance

The ICAC and the Competition Commission conducted a joint operation code- named “Shotgun” for two consecutive days on August 21 and 22, following the two agencies’ first collaborated action in mid-April against a newly-rising syndicate engaging in corruption and bid-rigging. After a four-month in-depth investigation and detailed analysis of evidence collected, the two agencies discovered that the syndicate might have been involved in other suspected corruption and bid-rigging activities and therefore took further enforcement actions.

The ICAC further arrested five persons and interviewed 22 persons during this operation, including project contractors, project consultants, middlemen, members of property management companies, and members of Incorporated Owners (IO).

In the joint operation, search warrants were executed by the ICAC and the Competition Commission to conduct searches at around 20 premises, including the offices of various project contractors, consultancies, as well as residences of the individuals concerned. Various exhibits were seized. The Competition Commission has also exercised its compulsory powers in the operation, requesting relevant companies and individuals to produce documents and information, and to attend before the Competition Commission to provide information relating to the case.

…/4

Annex B

The companies and individuals concerned were alleged to have solicited and accepted bribes and engaged in anti-competitive activities in order to manipulate the tendering exercises of building maintenance projects. They were also alleged to have exaggerated contract sums and assisted associated contractors in securing contracts of the projects. The investigation of ICAC mainly targeted renovation projects of two residential estates in Hong Kong Island, whereby corruption was suspected. The value of the two renovation project contracts was worth about $140 million in total. It is alleged that the backbone members of the syndicate, through a middle man, might have offered advantages to the IO members in order to ensure that the associated project contractors controlled by the syndicate would be awarded the renovation contracts of the two residential estates respectively, thus contravening section 9 of the Prevention of Bribery Ordinance (POBO). The renovation projects concerned have yet to be executed.

Meanwhile, the investigation conducted by the Competition Commission concerned renovation projects of 38 residential estates / buildings, and industrial buildings in Hong Kong Island, Kowloon and the New Territories. The value of the relevant renovation contracts totalled over $1 billion, with individual contracts worth as much as $260 million. Some of the renovation contracts concerned have yet to be awarded and some had been overturned, while works of individual projects had commenced prior to the commencement of the Competition Commission’s investigations.

During the tendering of renovation projects for the 38 aforementioned buildings, the companies and individuals concerned had allegedly manipulated the tender results by exchanging and coordinating bidding prices, either directly or through intermediaries, while some contractors had submitted cover bids. Such conduct would amount to bid-rigging, price-fixing and exchange of competitively sensitive information, contravening the First Conduct Rule of the Competition Ordinance.

As investigation is ongoing, no further comment on the case will be made by the ICAC and the Competition Commission at this stage.

…/5

Annex B

The series of joint operations conducted by the ICAC and the Competition Commission demonstrate the determination of the two agencies in safeguarding a clean and level-playing field for the building maintenance industry, and that no corruption and anti-competitive conduct will be tolerated. The two agencies will continue to maintain close collaboration with other law enforcement agencies and related authorities to crack down on illegal activities and to safeguard the rights of property owners. The ICAC calls on property owners and members of the public that, should they suspect corruption is involved in building maintenance, they should make enquiries or report to the ICAC without delay. The ICAC’s report corruption hotline: 25 266

  1. The Competition Commission calls on anyone who can provide information

on the matter or the relevant practices to contact the Competition Commission as soon as possible by telephone on 3462 2118 or by e-mail at complaints@compcomm.hk. Those who consider that they may have engaged or been involved in cartel conduct should approach the Commission as soon as possible for leniency or co-operation (Leniency Hotline: 3996 8010; e-mail: leniency@compcomm.hk).

The ICAC has all along been taking stringent enforcement action against corruption in the building management sector. The ICAC also actively supports flat owners and building management bodies (BMBs) in enhancing their anti-corruption capability through corruption prevention and education. The ICAC will continue to proactively approach BMBs and adopt an early intervention strategy, as well as to encourage flat owners to stay vigilant against corruption in renovation works through active participation in building management. To address the corruption risks in building maintenance projects, the ICAC has compiled and distributed the “Corruption Prevention 101 – Building Maintenance Tips” leaflet to provide corruption prevention suggestions and relevant information for owners. Members of the public can download the leaflet from the ICAC Corruption Prevention Advisory Service webpage (cpas.icac.hk). In collaboration with different government departments, regulators, professional bodies and trade associations, the ICAC will continue to organise integrity training to enhance practitioners’ professional conduct and resistance to bribery temptations. The ICAC has also produced a wide range of practical education resources which are available in the Integrity and Quality Building Management website (bm.icac.hk). Citizens are also welcome to call the Integrity Building Management Enquiry Hotline at 2929 4555 for ICAC services.

…/6

Annex B

Apart from enforcement actions, the Competition Commission has been actively launching publicity and educational initiatives to raise public awareness of bid- rigging and other anti-competitive conduct, and to assist procurers in strengthening their preventive efforts. In addition to rolling out a series of educational resources on its website, the Commission also spares no effort in engaging with the community. Over the past year, the Competition Commission has attended 19 briefings on building maintenance and management, reaching out to property owners and property managers in various districts, as well as relevant government departments and public bodies, to promote the message of combatting bid-rigging. Separately, the Competition Commission has also published a set of model “Non- collusion Clauses” for procurers to incorporate into their invitation to bid documents and contracts, with a view to reducing their exposure to anti-competitive conduct during procurement exercises. In essence, the “Non-collusion Clauses” serve to warn bidders of the prohibition against, and consequences of, entering into anti- competitive arrangements, as well as to provide a clear and straightforward contractual remedy for procurers in the event that these clauses have been breached. Both Chinese and English versions of the model clauses are available for downloading at www.compcomm.hk. X X X Annex B

INDEPENDENT COMMISSION AGAINST CORRUPTION 廉政 公 署 2026 年1 月2 日 新聞稿 廉署打擊樓宇維修貪污團夥涉兩屋苑拘捕21 人 廉署上星期採取執法行動,打擊一個有黑社會背景人士操縱的樓宇 維修貪污團夥,涉及觀塘區兩個屋苑的大維修工程,先後拘捕共21 名人士,包括該貪污團夥的骨幹成員。 被捕人士為15 名男子及六名女子,年齡介乎30 至81 歲,包括中間 人、工程顧問、工程承辦商及屋苑業主立案法團成員,部分人有黑 社會背景。 廉署人員在行動中搜查多個地點,包括涉案工程顧問及工程承辦商 的辦公室,並檢走多項證物,包括相關的招標文件。 行動涉及觀塘區兩個屋苑的大維修工程。就其中一項工程,涉案工 程承辦商涉嫌透過中間人行賄工程顧問及屋苑法團部分成員,以取 得總值約3,300 萬元的工程合約。另一項工程則仍在籌備階段,涉案 中間人懷疑藉貪污手段收集業主的「委任代表文書」(俗稱授權票), 企圖操控屋苑法團以協助日後取得相關維修工程合約。 廉署採取執法行動後,已主動聯絡兩個屋苑的相關持分者,提醒他 們在跟進涉案工程時需留意的貪污風險。 樓宇維修與廣大市民息息相關,牽涉不同持分者,廉署一直十分關 注相關貪污情況,採取結合專業執法、制度預防及社區教育的「三 管齊下」策略,透過嚴厲執法及適時主動介入,並與相關部門及機 構緊密合作和各司其職,全力打擊樓宇維修工程中可能涉及的貪污 及其他不法行為。此外,廉署為法團及業主提供實務指引,協助他 們規劃及管理樓宇維修項目,並舉辦專業培訓,協助業內各持分者 落實良好管治及有效內部管控制度。廉署又持續透過探訪、講座、 研討會等多元化渠道,向樓宇管理組織、地區治理團隊及業主講解 反貪法例,並鼓勵法團主動提升透明度,加強與業主溝通。 (完) …/2 Annex C

January 2, 2026 Press release

ICAC arrests 21 in crackdown on building maintenance corruption syndicate linked to two housing estates

In a law enforcement operation mounted last week, the ICAC neutralised a building maintenance corruption syndicate controlled by individuals with triad background. A total of 21 people linked to two grand renovation projects in Kwun Tong district, including backbone members of the corruption syndicate, were arrested.

The arrestees, comprising 15 men and six women aged between 30 and 81, included middlemen, project consultants, project contractors and members of incorporated owners (IO). Some of the arrestees have triad background.

During the operation, ICAC officers searched multiple locations, including offices of the project consultants and project contractors, and seized various exhibits, including relevant tender documents.

The operation targeted the grand renovation projects at two housing estates in Kwun Tong District. In one of the projects, the project contractor had allegedly bribed the project consultant and some IO members through middlemen to secure works contract worth a total sum of about $33 million. In another project, which was at the preparatory stage, middlemen had allegedly collected instruments of proxy from flat owners by corrupt means in an attempt to manipulate the IO of the estate, so that the relevant renovation works contracts could be secured in future.

Following the enforcement action, the ICAC had proactively contacted relevant stakeholders of the two housing estates, reminding them to stay vigilant to corruption risks when handling the projects concerned.

Building maintenance is closely related to the public and involves multiple stakeholders. The ICAC has always attached great importance to corruption in building maintenance, adopting a three-pronged strategy of law enforcement, systemic prevention and community education in tackling these cases. In combating corruption and other illegal acts in building maintenance works, the ICAC has carried out vigorous law enforcement, made timely and proactive interventions, and worked closely with other departments and organisations in accordance with a clear division of labour. In addition, the ICAC has offered step‑by‑step guidance for IOs and property owners on planning and managing building maintenance projects. …/3 Annex C

Professional training courses have also been organised to help different stakeholders in the sector implement good governance and robust internal control systems. The ICAC has also all along engaged with building management bodies, district governance teams and flat owners through various channels, including visits, talks and seminars, to explain to them the anti-corruption laws, and to encourage IOs to adopt proactive measures to enhance transparency and strengthen communication with flat owners. X X X Annex C

INDEPENDENT COMMISSION AGAINST CORRUPTION 廉 政 公 署 2026 年2 月13 日 新聞稿 廉署拘捕22 人涉七個屋苑及大廈樓宇大維修貪污阻截批出逾一 億元合約 廉政公署本星期初(2月9日及10日)採取代號為「獅子山」的執法 行動,打擊樓宇大維修工程涉嫌貪污及相關違法行為,涉及全港 多區七個屋苑及大廈,拘捕共22名人士。 被捕人士分別為17名男子及五名女子,年齡介乎36至78歲,包括 四間工程顧問公司及三間工程承辦商的董事及職員,以及部分 屋苑及大廈的業主立案法團(法團)主席。 廉署人員在行動中根據法庭手令搜查多個地點,包括涉案工程 顧問公司及工程承辦商的辦公室,並檢走多項證物,包括相關大 維修工程的招標和工程文件,以及銀行和會計紀錄。 行動涉及三個屋苑、三座單幢住宅大廈及一座工業大廈的大維 修工程,分布於全港多個地區,分別為荃灣、深水埗、大角咀、 新蒲崗、觀塘、上環及筲箕灣,工程合約金額介乎200萬元至逾 一億元,總值逾二億元。其中兩項總值逾一億元的工程仍在籌備 階段,廉署執法行動成功阻截批出工程合約。 廉署早前接獲貪污投訴,指有工程承辦商涉嫌藉貪污手段,行賄 工程顧問公司及法團成員以取得屋苑及大廈的大維修工程合約。 廉署調查發現,有工程顧問公司及工程承辦商的帳目懷疑造假 以掩飾不尋常收入及支出。調查又發現其中一名法團主席涉嫌 應入標工程顧問公司要求,洩露機密招標面試題目,協助對方成 功獲聘為相關工程的顧問。 相關貪污調查仍在進行,廉署不排除再有進一步執法行動。 廉署採取執法行動後,已主動聯絡有關屋苑及大廈的相關持分 者,提醒他們在跟進涉案工程時需留意的貪污風險。 Annex D

2 - 廉署一直密切關注涉及樓宇管理及維修的貪污情況,採取結合 執法、預防及教育的「三管齊下」的全方位策略,並會繼續與相 關政府部門及機構緊密合作,全力打擊樓宇維修工程中可能涉 及的貪污及其他不法行為。 廉署提醒公眾及相關業內人士,如懷疑任何與樓宇維修相關的 貪污行為,應立即向廉署舉報。廉署24小時舉報貪污熱線 : 25 266 366。 (完) February 13, 2026 Press release Twenty-two arrested by ICAC for suspected corruption in seven grand renovation projects preventing award of contracts worth over $100 million The ICAC mounted a law enforcement operation codenamed “Lion Rock” this week (February 9 and 10) to combat suspected corruption and other related illicit activities involving the grand renovation projects of seven housing estates and buildings across the territory, arresting a total of 22 individuals. The arrestees, aged between 36 and 78, are 17 men and five women, including the directors and staff members of four project consultancy firms and three project contractors, as well as some of the chairpersons of incorporated owners (IO) of the estates and buildings concerned. During the operation, search warrants were executed by ICAC officers to conduct searches at multiple locations, including offices of the project consultancy firms and project contractors. Various exhibits were also seized, including the relevant tender and works documents, as well as banking and accounting records. The operation involved the grand renovation projects at three housing estates, three residential buildings and an industrial building across the territory in Tsuen Wan, Sham Shui Po, Tai Kok Tsui, San Po Kong, Kwun Tong, Sheung Wan and Shau Kei Wan. The individual contract sum ranged from $2 million to over $100 million, while the total contract sum amounts to over $200 million. Two of the projects, worth totalling over $100 million, were still at the preparatory stage. The ICAC’s operation prevented the award of the two contracts concerned. Annex D

3 - The ICAC investigation arose from a corruption complaint alleging that certain project contractors might have offered bribes to project consultancy firms and IO members for securing the grand renovation projects of the housing estates and buildings by corrupt means. The ICAC investigation revealed that the project consultancy firms and the project contractors had fabricated their accounting records to cover up dubious incomes and expenses. The investigation also revealed that one of the IO chairpersons had allegedly divulged confidential tender interview questions upon the request of a project consultancy firm to assist the latter in securing a consultancy contract. As the relevant corruption investigation is continuing, the ICAC does not rule out further law enforcement actions. Following the enforcement action, the ICAC had proactively contacted relevant stakeholders of the housing estates and buildings concerned, reminding them to stay vigilant to corruption risks when handling the projects. The ICAC has always attached great importance to corruption in building management and maintenance, adopting a three-pronged strategy of law enforcement, systemic prevention and community education in tackling these cases. The ICAC will continue to work closely with other government departments and organisations in combating corruption and other illicit activities in building maintenance works. The ICAC urges members of the public and relevant industry practitioners that if they suspect corruption in building maintenance, they should report to the ICAC immediately through its 24-hour hotline (25 266 366). X X X Annex D

INDEPENDENT COMMISSION AGAINST CORRUPTION 廉 政 公 署 2026 年3 月30 日 新聞稿 廉署與警方採取聯合行動打擊黑社會滲透樓宇維修貪污拘42 人 廉政公署自去年中起陸續接獲市民貪污投訴,劍指一間工程顧 問公司涉嫌透過貪污賄賂,於不同屋苑協助工程承辦商取得樓 宇維修工程合約。 廉署進行詳細情報分析及深入調查後,發現該工程顧問公司涉 嫌先以不合理低價進場,獲取不同屋苑的樓宇維修工程顧問合 約,其後懷疑透過與其有關聯的黑社會人士充當中間人,以貪污 手段意圖操控工程招標程序,協助承辦商在個別屋苑獲取大額 工程合約。 有見及此,廉署及警方策劃部署聯合行動,上星期一連兩日(3月 26日及27日)採取代號為「劍鞘」的執法行動,聯手打擊黑社會 以貪污不法手段滲透樓宇維修工程,並掃蕩由相關黑社會操控 的非法場所。 廉署調查發現,涉案工程顧問公司涉嫌於2025年中獲得新界區 一個租者置其屋計劃屋邨的大維修工程顧問合約。該工程合約 估算逾1.6億元,而工程顧問公司以遠低於合理水平的價格(即合 約金額0.5%),取得該工程的顧問合約。廉署懷疑工程顧問公司 其後透過黑社會成員,暗中聯繫有意投標的工程承辦商,以行賄 受賄方式,意圖操控工程招標程序。由於相關招標工作仍在籌備, 廉署相信是次執法行動已及早阻止有關貪污勾當,成功堵截黑 社會染指該屋苑的大維修工程。(圖1) 另外,該工程顧問公司於2022年獲得港島區一座單幢住宅大廈 的大維修工程的顧問合約。一間工程承辦商後來以2,000萬元獲 取該項大維修工程。廉署調查發現,該工程承辦商有多筆總額達 數百萬元的不尋常支出。該工程顧問公司的註冊檢驗人員則涉 嫌沒有履行檢驗職責而簽署建築物檢驗報告。由於該工程已經 展開,基於安全考慮,廉署已將事件轉介屋宇署跟進檢視。(圖 2) Annex E

2 - 該工程顧問公司又涉嫌與九龍區一座單幢住宅大廈的物業管理 公司董事,從一名工程公司東主收賄,於2026年初游說各業主以 高於市價約一倍價格,即約140萬元,將消防安全改善工程合約 判授予該工程公司。由於合約尚未批出,廉署相信行動已阻截相 關不法勾當。(圖3) 廉署在行動中拘捕10名男子,年齡介乎28歲至61歲,包括該間工 程顧問公司的東主及註冊檢驗人員、多名有黑社會背景的中間 人、兩間工程承辦商的東主及一間物業管理公司的董事。 廉署人員又根據法庭手令搜查22個地點,包括涉案工程顧問公 司及工程承辦商的辦公室,以及涉案人士的住所等,並檢走大量 證物,包括與樓宇維修工程相關文件,以及銀行和會計紀錄等。 廉署連日檢視有關文件,初步發現涉案公司懷疑有不少帳目造 假的情況,用以掩飾不尋常收入及支出。 在廉署進行拘捕後,警方隨即迅速搜查新界區多個相信由上述 有黑社會背景人士操控的不法場所,並成功搗破兩個非法麻雀 檔及一個百家樂賭檔,並拘捕32人,分別為14男18女,年齡介乎 30歲至75歲,罪名包括「營辦賭博場所」及「在賭場以外任何場 所進行賭博」。 「劍鞘」行動後,廉署已主動聯絡涉案屋苑及大廈的相關持分者, 提醒他們在跟進涉案工程時需留意的貪污風險。 廉署發言人表示:「廉署一直密切關注樓宇管理及維修的貪污情 況,並會繼續與警方及其他政府部門和監管機構保持緊密合作, 因應合適個案及早介入,全力打擊及堵截樓宇維修工程中潛在 及可能涉及的貪污及其他不法行為。『劍鞘』行動中兩項總值逾 1.6億元的工程尚未批出。相關貪污調查仍在進行,廉署不排除 再有進一步執法行動。」 警方發言人表示:「警方高度重視有不法份子涉嫌利用非法手段 干預樓宇維修工程,並會嚴正追究任何違法行為。警方重申,打 擊三合會活動為警方首要行動項目之一,警方絕不容許任何非 法、暴力或三合會的活動在社會上發生,並會聯同廉署和其他相 關執法部門繼續大力打擊相關的犯罪行為及其收入來源。」 Annex E

3 - 廉署呼籲公眾以及樓宇管理及維修相關業內人士,如懷疑任何 貪污行為,應立即向廉署舉報。廉署24小時舉報貪污熱線:25 266 366。警方亦呼籲市民尤其是業主,應該積極參與樓宇管理 事務並向執法部門主動舉報任何違法行為。 (完) March 30, 2026 Press release ICAC and Police joint operation against corrupt triad infiltration in building maintenance, arrest 42 The Independent Commission Against Corruption (ICAC) has received corruption complaints from the public since mid-2025, alleging that a project consultancy firm had assisted construction contractors to secure building maintenance contracts in various residential estates through bribery. Detailed intelligence analyses and intensive investigations by the ICAC revealed that the project consultancy firm, which had allegedly secured consultancy contracts of various building maintenance projects at unreasonably low fees, had engaged triad members linked to the firm as middlemen to manipulate the tendering process of the projects through corrupt means, aiming to assist contractors in securing a high-priced contract in a residential estate. In view of the findings, the ICAC and the Police mounted a joint operation codenamed “Scabbard” for two consecutive days on March 26 and 27, joining hands to crack down on triad infiltration in building maintenance projects through corrupt means, raiding premises controlled by relevant triads for illicit activities. The ICAC investigation revealed that the project consultancy firm secured the consultancy contract of the grand renovation project of a housing estate under the Tenants Purchase Scheme in the New Territories in mid-2025. The project sum was estimated to be over $160 million and the consultancy firm secured the consultancy contract at a price far below a reasonable level (i.e. 0.5% of the contract sum). It is suspected that the project consultancy firm would subsequently contact potential bidders through triad members, and by means of bribery, manipulate the tendering process. While the relevant tendering exercise is still at preparatory stage, the ICAC’s early intervention is believed to have prevented the corrupt dealings from taking place and intercepted triad infiltration in the grand renovation project of the Annex E

4 - housing estate. (Diagram 1) In addition, the project consultancy firm secured the consultancy contract for the grand renovation project of a residential building on Hong Kong Island in 2022. The project was subsequently awarded at $20 million to a project contractor, which had various dubious expenditures totalling several million dollars. Investigation by the ICAC also found that a registered inspector of the project consultancy firm was suspected of failing to fulfil his inspection duties and signed on Building Inspection Reports without conducting any inspection. As the project has already commenced, the ICAC has referred the incident to the Buildings Department for further inspection due to safety concerns. (Diagram 2) The project consultancy firm, together with a director of the property management company of a residential building in Kowloon, is also suspected of accepting bribes from a project contractor for lobbying its flat owners to award the contract of a fire safety improvement project to the contractor at approximately twice the market price, i.e. $1.4 million, in early 2026. The contract is yet to be awarded and the enforcement action of the ICAC is believed to have thwarted the illicit dealings. (Diagram 3) In the operation, the ICAC arrested 10 men aged between 28 and 61, including the proprietor and a registered inspector of a project consultancy firm concerned, several middlemen with triad background, the proprietors of two project contractors and a property management company director. ICAC officers also executed search warrants to conduct searches at 22 locations, including offices of the project consultancy firm and project contractors, as well as residences of the arrestees. Voluminous exhibits were also seized, including documents relating to the building maintenance projects, as well as banking and accounting records. Reviewing those documents, initial findings by the ICAC suggested that the companies involved in the present case might have fabricated accounting records to cover up dubious incomes and expenses. Following the ICAC’s enforcement actions, the Police swiftly launched raids at multiple locations in the New Territories believed to be controlled by the abovementioned individuals with triad background, shutting down two unlawful Mahjong dens and an illegal baccarat gambling den. A total of 32 individuals, comprising 14 men and 18 women, aged between 30 and 75, were arrested by the Police for offences including “operating gambling establishments” and “gambling in any place not being a gambling establishment”. Annex E

5 - Following the Operation “Scabbard”, the ICAC had proactively contacted relevant stakeholders of the housing estate and buildings concerned, reminding them to stay vigilant to corruption risks when handling the projects. An ICAC spokesperson said, “The ICAC has been paying close attention to corruption in building management and maintenance. The Commission will continue to work closely with the Police as well as other government departments and regulatory bodies to combat potential and suspected corruption and other illicit activities in building maintenance projects by intervention at an early stage in cases deemed appropriate. Works contracts of two projects worth totalling over $160 million revealed in Operation ‘Scabbard’ are yet to be awarded. The relevant corruption investigation is ongoing, and the ICAC does not rule out further enforcement actions.” “The Police is highly concerned about suspected illegal interference in building maintenance and management projects by criminals. Any illegal activities will be pursued resolutely. The Police reiterates that combating triad activities is one of the Force’s top operational priorities. The Police does not tolerate any unlawful, violent, or triad-related activities in society, and will continue to co-operate with the ICAC and other law enforcement agencies to combat related crimes and cut the source of income of criminals,” a Police spokesperson noted. The ICAC urges members of the public and practitioners of the building management and maintenance industry to report suspected corruption to the ICAC immediately through its 24-hour hotline (25 266 366). The Police also calls on citizens, particularly property owners, to proactively participate in building management affairs and report any illegalities to law enforcement agencies. X X X Annex E

6 - 圖1 圖2 Annex E

7 - 圖3 Diagram 1 Annex E

8 - Diagram 2 Diagram 3 Annex E

INDEPENDENT COMMISSION AGAINST CORRUPTION 廉 政 公 署 2026 年5 月5 日 新聞稿 廉署拘七人圖奪樓宇大維修工程 法團主席疑涉貪包庇承辦商 工程顧問隱瞞雙重身分 廉署上星期(4月27日及28日)採取執法行動,打擊一個專門針對 單幢樓宇大維修工程的貪污集團,拘捕五男兩女,年齡介乎37歲 至75歲,當中包括業主立案法團主席、工程承辦商東主,以及工 程顧問公司的董事和聘用的註冊檢驗人員。 廉署早前接獲市民舉報,懷疑位於旺角一座商住大廈的大維修 工程招標過程可能涉及貪污。廉署調查揭發被捕承辦商東主,涉 嫌透過親友暗中持有涉案工程顧問公司,用低價取得工程顧問 合約,並在招標過程中隱瞞承辦商及工程顧問的雙重身分和利 益衝突,意圖誘使法團揀選其工程承辦商進行大維修。 廉署調查發現,該工程顧問公司並沒有按法團要求,申報與該工 程承辦商的利益衝突,而業主立案法團主席懷疑縱容包庇,可能 涉及貪污。因有業主對招標過程存疑,涉案承辦商最終未能獲取 該項價值約2,000萬元的工程合約。 廉署調查又發現被捕註冊檢驗人員正職從事金融業,懷疑她在 有關工程並沒有根據建築物條例履行檢驗職責而簽署建築物檢 驗報告。廉署已同步將相關建築物檢驗資料轉介屋宇署跟進。 廉署人員在行動中搜查多個地點,包括涉案工程顧問公司及工 程承辦商的辦公室,以及被捕人士的住所,並檢走相關樓宇維修 工程文件和會計紀錄。 廉署在行動中發現涉案工程顧問公司及承辦商亦試圖透過隱瞞 關係和利益衝突,以取得另外兩個位於大坑及深水埗的樓宇大 維修項目,有關工程正進行招標,合約價值共約600萬元。廉署 行動成功堵截有關非法行為,過程中亦已提醒相關業主代表在 判授合約時要留意的貪污風險。 Annex F

2 - 相關貪污調查仍在進行中,廉署不排除再有進一步執法行動。 廉署呼籲公眾以及從事樓宇維修及管理業人士,如有任何貪污 懷疑,應立即向廉署舉報。廉署24小時舉報貪污熱線:25 266 366。 (完) May 5, 2026 Press release Seven arrested by ICAC for alleged bribery for conniving at concealment of contractor’s dual role as consultant in grand maintenance projects Last week (April 27 and 28), the ICAC conducted an enforcement action against a corruption syndicate specifically targeting grand maintenance projects of single- block buildings, arresting five men and two women, aged between 37 and 75, including the chairman of an Incorporated Owners (IO), the proprietor of a project contractor, and directors of a project consultancy firm and a registered inspector employed by the firm. The ICAC received a public complaint alleging possible corruption in the tender exercise for the grand maintenance project of a single-block composite building in Mong Kok. Investigations revealed that the arrested project contractor’s proprietor allegedly controlled the project consultancy firm through his associates, secured the consultancy contract for the grand maintenance project at a low price, and concealed his dual roles as project contractor and consultant, along with his conflicting interests during the tendering process, with intent to induce the IO to select his company as the project contractor. ICAC enquiries found that the project consultancy firm concerned did not declare its conflicting interests with the project contractor as required by the IO, while the IO chairman was suspected of bribery for conniving at the concealment. As property owners surmised irregularities in the tender exercise, the project contractor eventually failed to secure the $20 million works contract. It was also revealed in the ICAC investigation that the arrested registered inspector, who maintained a full-time job in the finance industry, might not have discharged her inspection duties in accordance with the Buildings Ordinance when signing Building Inspection Reports. The ICAC has referred the relevant inspection information in parallel to the Buildings Department for follow-up action. Annex F

3 - ICAC officers conducted searches at multiple locations, including the offices of the project consultancy firm and the project contractor, as well as residences of the arrestees, seizing relevant documents related to the grand maintenance projects and accounting records. It was revealed in the ICAC operation that the project consultancy firm and project contractor also concealed their relationship and conflicting interests in two other grand maintenance projects currently undergoing tender exercises – one in Tai Hang and another in Sham Shui Po – to secure contracts with a total contract sum of about $6 million. The ICAC successfully intercepted these illicit activities and reminded property owners of potential corruption risks during contract awards. As the relevant corruption investigation is ongoing, the ICAC does not rule out further enforcement actions. The ICAC urges members of the public and practitioners in the building management and maintenance industry to report suspected corruption to the ICAC immediately through its 24-hour hotline at 25 266 366. X X X Annex F

4 - Annex F

INDEPENDENT COMMISSION AGAINST CORRUPTION 廉 政 公 署 2026 年3 月25 日 新聞稿 廉署持續打擊樓宇大維修工程貪污起訴五人涉三個屋苑 廉政公署持續打擊樓宇大維修工程貪污,星期一(3月23日)分三 宗案件落案起訴五名人士,控告他們涉嫌就三個屋苑的大維修 工程,行賄有關屋苑的業主立案法團(法團)成員及業主代表。三 個涉案屋苑的工程總值約9,000萬元。案件今早(3月25日)在東區 裁判法院提訊。 廉署一直密切關注涉及樓宇管理及維修的貪污情況,採取結合 執法、預防及教育的「三管齊下」的全方位策略,並持續與相關 政府部門及機構緊密合作,全力打擊樓宇維修工程中可能出現 的貪污及其他不法行為。 廉署早前與競爭事務委員會採取代號為「獵槍」的聯合行動,成 功搗破一個涉嫌透過貪污和圍標手段,以操控樓宇維修工程招 標程序的犯罪集團。經深入調查及徵詢法律意見後,廉署落案起 訴四男一女。 五名被告為張烱權、周淑霞及三名中間人黃湘豫、鄭國歡及江寶 材,年齡介乎42歲至70歲,共被控八項罪名,即七項向代理人提 供利益罪名,違反《防止賄賂條例》第9(2)(a)條,以及一項串謀 向代理人提供利益,違反《防止賄賂條例》第9(2)(a)條及《刑事 罪行條例》第159A條。 涉案三個屋苑分別為柴灣茵翠苑、堅尼地城海都樓及葵涌怡勝 花園,它們案發時正展開大維修工程。 首宗案件控罪指張烱權及茵翠苑時任法團秘書周淑霞涉嫌於 2022年9月至2023年2月期間,串謀向屋苑一名時任法團成員提 供一筆金額不詳的賄款,以協助與張烱權有聯繫的承辦商取得 該屋苑的大維修工程合約。該法團成員拒絕受賄,亦沒有協助相 關承辦商取得工程合約。案發時,茵翠苑業主大會通過以約3,900 萬元將相關大維修工程合約判給志富建築(集團)有限公司,但其 Annex G

2 - 後在另一業主大會推翻有關決定。周淑霞當時正為張烱權的一 間公司工作,而她出任茵翠苑法團秘書時,並非屋苑的業主或居 民。 另一宗案件涉及海都樓的大維修工程,最初居民通過決議,將有 關工程以約3,100萬元判給祥利建築公司(祥利),但部分海都樓 業主其後入稟土地審裁處,要求推翻該決議。相關三項控罪指鄭 國歡及江寶材涉嫌於2022年10月至2024年2月期間,先後向一名 海都樓業主代表提供一封未有指明金額的利是及兩筆分別為數 萬元及50萬元的賄款,以協助游說其他業主停止反對祥利獲批 該工程合約,及協助該宗土地審裁處案件達致庭外和解。該名業 主代表拒絕受賄,亦沒有向二人提供協助。向土地審裁處入稟要 求推翻決議的居民最終獲勝訴。 第三宗案件四項控罪指黃湘豫涉嫌於2020年7月至2024年4月期 間,先後四次向怡勝花園一名時任法團成員提供未有指明金額 的賭場籌碼及價值約50,000元的裝修服務,以協助黃湘豫推薦的 工程顧問及承辦商取得怡勝花園大維修顧問及工程合約。該法 團成員並沒有接受黃湘豫提供的利益,亦沒有協助相關工程顧 問或承辦商取得合約。怡勝花園大維修工程的工程顧問合約,最 終由鴻毅建築師有限公司獲得,而有關工程合約則由俊豪建築 工程有限公司取得,合約金額逾2,100萬元。 相關貪污調查仍在進行,廉署不排除會有更多人士被檢控。 廉署提醒公眾及樓宇管理及維修相關業內人士,如懷疑任何貪 污行為,應立即向廉署舉報。廉署24小時舉報貪污熱線:25 266 366。 (完) March 25, 2026 Press release Five linked to three housing estates charged in ICAC’s ongoing crackdown on corruption in grand renovation projects The ICAC, in its ongoing effort to crack down on corruption in grand renovation projects, charged five individuals in three cases on Monday (March 23) for allegedly Annex G

3 - offering bribes to members of incorporated owners (IO) and a representative of flat owners in relation to the grand renovation projects of three housing estates with project sums totalling about $90 million. The cases are set for mention at the Eastern Magistrates’ Courts this morning (March 25). Paying close attention to corruption in building management and maintenance, the ICAC adopts a three-pronged strategy of law enforcement, systemic prevention and community education, and works closely with other government departments and organisations in combating corruption and other illicit activities in building maintenance works. The ICAC had earlier mounted a joint operation codenamed “Shotgun” with the Competition Commission, resulting in the successful crackdown on a crime syndicate allegedly engaged in manipulating the tendering exercises of building maintenance projects through bribery and bid-rigging. After conducting intensive investigations and seeking legal advice, the ICAC yesterday charged four men and one woman. The five defendants, aged between 42 and 70, are Cheung Kwing-kuen and Chow Shuk-ha, and three middlemen, namely Wong Sheung-yu, Cheng Kwok-foon and Kong Po-choy. They face a total of eight charges – seven of offering an advantage to an agent, contrary to section 9(2)(a) of the Prevention of Bribery Ordinance (POBO), and one of conspiracy to offer an advantage to an agent, contrary to section 9(2)(a) of the POBO and section 159A of the Crimes Ordinance. The three housing estates in the present cases, Yan Tsui Court in Chai Wan, Hoi Tao Building in Kennedy Town and Victory Garden in Kwai Chung, were undergoing grand renovation projects at the material times. In the first case, the charge alleges that between September 2022 and February 2023, Cheung and Chow, then member secretary of the IO of Yan Tsui Court, conspired together to offer an unspecified sum of money to a then IO member to assist contractors associated with Cheung in securing the grand renovation contract of Yan Tsui Court. The IO member rejected bribes and did not assist the contractors to secure the works contract. At an owners’ meeting, Yan Tsui Court’s grand renovation contract was awarded to Chi Fu Construction (Group) Limited at $39 million by resolution. The resolution was subsequently overturned at another owners’ meeting. At the material time, Chow worked for a company of Cheung. When Cheung assumed the position of the IO’s secretary, she was neither a flat owner nor a resident of Yan Tsui Court. Annex G

4 - Another case concerns the grand renovation project of Hoi Tao Building. The works contract was originally awarded to a contractor, Cheung Lee Construction Co (Cheung Lee), at $3.1 million by resolution of flat owners. Some flat owners subsequently filed a case with the Lands Tribunal, requesting the overturning of the resolution. The three charges allege that between October 2022 and February 2024, Cheng and Kong, allegedly offered a red packet of an unspecified amount and two bribes of several tens of thousands of dollars and $500,000 respectively, to a representative of flat owners to assist in persuading other flat owners to stop opposing the award of the works contract to Cheung Lee, and to assist in reaching a settlement of the Lands Tribunal case. The representative did not accept the bribes and did not offer any assistance to the duo. The Lands Tribunal eventually ruled in favour of the flat owners who filed the case. In the third case, the four charges allege that on four occasions between July 2020 and April 2024, Wong offered an unspecified amount of casino chips and renovation services worth $50,000 to a then member of the IO of Victory Garden to assist the project consultants and contractors recommended by Wong in securing the consultant and works contracts of the grand renovation project of housing estate. The IO member did not accept the advantages offered by Wong and did not assist the project consultants or contractors in obtaining any contracts. The consultancy contract for the grand renovation project of Victory Garden was eventually awarded to Will Power Architects Company Limited while the relevant works contract worth over $21 million was awarded to Smart Goal Construction Engineering Limited. As the relevant corruption investigation is continuing, further prosecutions will not be ruled out. The ICAC urges members of the public and practitioners of the building management and maintenance industry to report suspected corruption to the ICAC immediately through its 24-hour hotline (25 266 366). X X X Annex G

FD06223 | 2025_港澳台_香港大埔宏福苑-特别重大火灾事故调查报告(政府开场陈词).pdf

分类:06_境外及港澳台调查报告 | 年份:2025 | 地域:香港 | 严重程度:特别重大 | 场所: | 起火原因: | 来源格式:pdf

Independent Committee in relation to the fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po Written Opening Submission of the Relevant Bureaux and Departments of the Government (English translation) A. Introduction 1. This Written Opening Submission is submitted by the Government’s relevant policy bureaux and departments1 to the Independent Committee established in relation to the fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po (the “Independent Committee”). This Submission aims at providing a preliminary background for the Independent Committee’s investigative work (the “Inquiry”), briefly setting out: (1) the Government’s stance on the Inquiry and how it is facilitating the same; (2) the basic background on the Wang Fuk Court estate and the course of the fire; (3) preliminary observations on the direct causes of the fire and systemic issues falling within item (1) of the Terms of Reference (the “ToR”); (4) preliminary observations on the systemic issues of conflicts of interest and irregularities in tendering falling within item (2) of the ToR; and (5) immediate and medium-to-long-term improvement measures taken or proposed to be taken by the relevant Government departments since the fire. 2. On 26 November 2025, a serious fire broke out at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po, claiming 168 precious lives, injuring a number of persons and causing severe damage to property. This is the deadliest fire disaster in Hong Kong in recent years and has caused immense grief to all Hong Kong citizens.

1 Namely (1) the Hong Kong Police Force, (2) the Fire Services Department, (3) the Home Affairs Department, (4) the Housing Department, (5) the Buildings Department and (6) the Labour Department

-2- The Government extends its deepest condolences to all those who perished in the fire, and expresses its most sincere sympathies to the families of all the casualties. 3. This tragedy serves as a stark reminder of the critical importance of building safety and fire safety in safeguarding the lives and property of Hong Kong citizens. The Government fully understands that the families of the deceased, the residents of Wang Fuk Court and the public at large all expect a fair, clear and comprehensive account through the work of the Independent Committee. The Inquiry not only aims to ascertain the causes of the Wang Fuk Court fire, but also bears the important responsibility of formulating improvement measures and making recommendations for the future to ensure that similar tragedies do not happen again. 4. The ToR of the Independent Committee cover the following four areas: (1) Term of Reference (1): Regarding the fire broken out at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po, its rapid spread and the resulting casualties and property damage, to examine - the causes and circumstances that led to the fire; the fire service installations and equipment in the buildings, and the supervision and responsibility for their effective operation; whether the construction safety requirements, standards, supervision and day-to-day maintenance regime for the building maintenance and renovation works were adequate; regarding the building maintenance and renovation works, whether the prevailing list of materials meeting safety standards is comprehensive, and whether the related verification and testing systems are effective; the roles and responsibilities of personnel with supervisory roles across all stages (including government officers, authorised professionals,

-3- contractors and others); and the liabilities arising from the aforementioned issues. (2) Term of Reference (2): Regarding large-scale building maintenance and renovation works, to examine - whether there were systemic problems such as undue connected interests, conflicts of roles, or improper collusion across all stages of the works; and whether bid- rigging corruption, or irregularities were involved in the tendering process of these works. (3) Term of Reference (3): Regarding the two matters above, to examine whether regulation and penalties under relevant existing laws are adequate. (4) Term of Reference (4): To make recommendations regarding matters in items (1) to (3) above. 5. The above ToR fully reflect the depth and breadth of the Inquiry, demonstrating the extremely heavy investigative burden borne by the Independent Committee. The Government fully appreciates that the scope of the Inquiry is extensive and the issues are complex. The adoption of this form of inquiry is aimed at ensuring that the investigative work can proceed in a more flexible and expeditious manner while upholding the principles of openness and transparency. The Government expressly supports the Independent Committee’s adoption of this mode of inquiry, and pledges its full support in response to the expectations of the families of the deceased, the residents of Wang Fuk Court and the public for a full account of the truth of this incident.

-4- B. The Government’s Stance and Approach 6. Following the Wang Fuk Court fire, the Chief Executive acted swiftly and established the Independent Committee in December 2025, demonstrating firm resolve to conduct a thorough investigation. Authorised by the Chief Executive, the Independent Committee immediately commenced its work and actively proceeded with its investigations. 7. The Government has adopted a proactive approach to cooperation in the Inquiry. Since the Independent Committee commenced its operations, Government departments have actively responded to letters issued by the Independent Committee’s legal team, and have simultaneously and proactively submitted documents, information and witness statements relevant to the ToR to the Independent Committee. As a guiding principle throughout the Independent Committee’s examination of the extensive range of investigative matters, the Government will raise and provide any information and documents it considers relevant to the Independent Committee’s reference, without waiting to be asked. 8. Furthermore, the Government understands that the depth and breadth of the Inquiry requires the continuous supply of information and documents from all parties throughout the investigative process, so as to enable the Independent Committee to conduct a comprehensive investigation and make findings on the basis of a full grasp of the relevant objective circumstances. Given the extensive scope and complexity of this matter, the collation of relevant documents and information has been an enormously demanding task, and all Government departments have been doing their utmost to cooperate within extremely tight timeframes, and have continued to do so.

-5- 9. Since the Independent Committee commenced its work in December 2025, the relevant Government departments have submitted a large volume of witness statements and documentary materials to the Independent Committee within a short period of time, which also reflects the high importance the Government attaches to the Inquiry and its full support for the work of the Independent Committee. 10. At the same time, the Independent Committee and its legal team have also reviewed the large volume of documents and materials submitted by the relevant Government departments and other parties, and have accordingly compiled the hearing bundles and drawn up witness lists for the Inquiry. The Government understands that the facts and background of the Inquiry are complex and intricate, and many details remain to be presented and clarified in the course of the Inquiry. In the upcoming public hearings of the Inquiry, the relevant witnesses will give evidence and be examined on their respective areas, which should help the public gain a more comprehensive understanding of the full circumstances of the incident. The Government will continue to cooperate fully with the work of the Independent Committee throughout the course of the hearings, so as to present an objective and complete picture of the incident to the Independent Committee and the public. C. Basic Background on Wang Fuk Court and the Course of the Fire Overview of Wang Fuk Court 11. Wang Fuk Court is a Home Ownership Scheme (“HOS”) estate in Hong Kong, completed in 1983, comprising eight residential blocks: Wang Yan House (Block A), Wang To House (Block B), Wang San House (Block C), Wang Kin House (Block D), Wang Tai House (Block E), Wang Cheong

-6- House (Block F), Wang Shing House (Block G) and Wang Chi House (Block H). 12. Each block has thirty-one floors, with each floor divided into eight residential units (numbered (1) to (8)) connected by a corridor, with the lift lobby located at the centre of the corridor. Opposite the lift lobby, there are two interlocking staircases (commonly known as “scissor stairs”) serving as means of escape in case of fire. Both staircases run from the thirty-first floor at the top down to the ground floor, but only one of them provides access to the rooftop. 13. Pursuant to the relevant provisions of the Housing Ordinance (Cap. 283) and the Buildings Ordinance (Cap. 123), Wang Fuk Court is subject to regulation under the Buildings Ordinance, and is regulated by the Independent Checking Unit (“ICU”) under the Office of the Permanent Secretary for Housing, which operates under the authority delegated by the Building Authority (i.e. the Director of Buildings) and in accordance with the Buildings Ordinance and the Building Authority’s policies and guidelines. Background to the Building Maintenance Works 14. Wang Fuk Court was selected as a target building under the Mandatory Building Inspection Scheme (“MBIS”) in 2014. 15. The ICU subsequently issued a pre-notification letter for the MBIS to the Incorporated Owners of Wang Fuk Court (“Wang Fuk Court IO”) on 29 April 2014, and on 10 June 2016 formally served the Statutory Notice on the Wang Fuk Court IO under section 30B(3) of the Buildings Ordinance requiring the carrying out of prescribed inspection and prescribed repair.

-7- 16. Thereafter, the ICU approved five extensions to the deadline of the statutory notice between June 2017 and October 2019. 17. The Wang Fuk Court IO appointed Will Power Architects Company Limited (“WP”) as the inspection consultant in January 2019. 18. In December 2021, WP was appointed by the Wang Fuk Court IO as the supervisory and repair consultant for the maintenance works. 19. In May 2023, the Wang Fuk Court IO commenced tendering for a contractor for the maintenance works. On 28 January 2024, Prestige Construction & Engineering Co. Limited (“PC&E”) was selected by the Wang Fuk Court IO as the contractor for the maintenance works. The maintenance works officially commenced in July 2024. Overview of the Course of the Fire 20. At 2:51 pm on 26 November 2025, the Fire Services Communications Centre of the Fire Services Department (“FSD”) received the first fire report, in which the caller stated that the external scaffolding of Wang Cheong House was on fire and there had been an explosion. The first fire appliance arrived at the scene at 2:56 pm. 21. In light of the rapid development of the fire and the increasing resources required for fire-fighting and Search and Rescue Operations, firefighters upgraded the fire to No. 3 Alarm Fire six minutes after arrival (i.e. at 3:02 pm). Firefighters subsequently further upgraded the fire to No. 4 Alarm Fire at 3:34 pm. Finally, the Deputy Director (Operations) upgraded the fire to No. 5 Alarm Fire at 6:22 pm and personally assumed overall command of the operations.

-8- 22. Based on the preliminary information currently available to the Government, it is believed that the fire spread rapidly upward along the re- entrant on the external walls of the affected blocks, with the manner of spread suspected to have been influenced by the “chimney effect”, whereby hot air, smoke and combustible gases rose rapidly within the re- entrant. In certain blocks, the fire spread from the lower floors to the rooftop within an extremely short period of time. The rapid development of the fire in certain blocks resulted in a continuous shower of burning bamboo scaffolding and debris falling from height, which accumulated on the ground and blocked the entrances and exits of Wang Cheong House and Wang Tai House; the fire also spread rapidly to other blocks due to weather conditions. 23. According to reports from frontline firefighters, thermal imaging cameras detected temperatures as high as 800 degrees Celsius in some of the affected units, while some corridors also reached approximately 400 degrees Celsius. 24. Throughout the operation, a total of nine firefighters who were carrying out fire-fighting and Search and Rescue Operations inside the blocks required hospitalisation due to heat exhaustion, physical exhaustion, breathing difficulties, smoke inhalation or being struck by falling objects. Most tragically, a firefighter who had entered the upper floors of Wang Tai House in the early stages of the fire lost his life in the line of duty. 25. Police officers also maintained order at the scene and assisted with the fire- fighting operations, before subsequently devoting themselves wholeheartedly to the follow-up evidential search, investigation and victim identification work.

-9- 26. Medical personnel also worked tirelessly to save every injured person, dedicating themselves to lifesaving and casualty treatment. Other frontline staff, civil servants and concerned citizens also spared no effort to participate in the rescue and subsequent relief operations. 27. The fire ultimately claimed 168 lives, and caused injury to a number of persons and severe damage to property. D. Preliminary Observations on the Causes of the Fire and Related Issues of Accountability 28. The ascertainment of the causes of the fire and related issues of accountability is the core of ToR item (1) and the most important aspect of the Inquiry. To assist the Independent Committee, the following paragraphs set out preliminary observations on the relevant causes and issues of accountability based on the preliminary information currently available to the Government. Naturally, as further evidence is disclosed, as witnesses and experts give their evidence, and as the Inquiry progresses, the Government will update or supplement these observations as appropriate. Detailed analysis will be reserved until after the relevant experts and witnesses have completed their evidence at the hearings, so as to enable the Independent Committee to make informed and comprehensive findings after full consideration of the submissions of all parties. 29. Prior to the Independent Committee commencing its work in December 2025, the FSD had already established an Inter-departmental Fire Investigation Task Force (the “Task Force”), comprising officers from the Hong Kong Police Force, the Buildings Department (“BD”), the Electrical and Mechanical Services Department, the ICU, the Labour Department (“LD”), the Government Laboratory and fire engineering professionals, to

-10- conduct an in-depth investigation into the causes of the fire. The findings of the Task Force will also provide reference and support for the Independent Committee in discharging its duties under ToR item (1). The investigation is currently ongoing and will continue to be updated as it progresses. 30. Meanwhile, in the course of preparing for the hearings, the relevant Government departments have submitted a large volume of documents, witness statements and technical materials to the Committee on the various issues covered by ToR item (1). 31. The causes of the fire and issues of accountability falling within ToR item (1) are believed to be capable of examination at two levels: first, the direct causes of the fire; and second, the systemic issues related to the fire and areas for improvement in the relevant systems. The two levels are complementary and together constitute the content of the Independent Committee’s investigation under ToR item (1). 32. The Government notes that, at the Direction Conference on 5 February 2026, Leading Counsel of the Independent Committee observed that the available information suggests that this incident involved a series of structural problems that cannot be overlooked. This observation also confirms the necessity of examining the fire at both levels: ascertaining the direct causes alone is insufficient to address the public’s deep concerns about this incident; only by also conducting an in-depth examination of the underlying systemic issues can result in effective forestalling of potential risks. Preliminary Observations on the Direct Causes

-11- 33. Based on information and footage provided by eyewitnesses, the fire is believed to have originated from the platform outside units 104 and 105 of Wang Cheong House. This finding was subsequently supported by evidence obtained by the Task Force through site inspections and investigations. 34. As regards the cause of ignition, the police have preliminarily ruled out arson, on the basis that forensic examination found no trace of accelerants at the source of ignition, and no suspicious behaviour by any person was observed in the vicinity prior to the fire. Having ruled out arson, the Task Force’s investigation has focused on accidental factors. The Task Force has preliminarily concluded that the fire was most likely accidental in nature, caused by a heat source igniting combustible materials. 35. In addition to ascertaining the cause of ignition, it is equally important to understand how the fire was able to spread throughout the entire estate within such a short period of time. 36. As regards casualties and property damage, in addition to the intensity of the fire itself, there are other factors of concern which warrant in-depth examination by the Independent Committee. 37. The Task Force set out preliminary conclusions on the causes and manner of spread of the fire in its interim investigation report dated February 2026. The Task Force will continue to conduct in-depth investigations into the details of the incident, including fire analysis and computational fluid dynamics simulation tests, and will provide a detailed analysis in its final report. The final report is provisionally scheduled to be completed in May 2026 and will be submitted to the Independent Committee upon completion.

-12- 38. Meanwhile, Professor Richard Yuen Kwok-kit, appointed as an expert by the Task Force, has also conducted relevant research work and analysis, including fire simulations, since the fire occurred. The FSD has also submitted Professor Yuen’s expert report dated 10 February 2026 to the Independent Committee for its consideration. 39. The above factors will be subjects for in-depth consideration by the Independent Committee at the hearings (together with the experts appointed by the Independent Committee, namely Professor Asif Sohail Usmani and Professor Jiang Liming). Preliminary Observations on Systemic Causes 40. Ascertaining the direct causes of the fire is merely the starting point, not the end point, of the Inquiry. ToR item (1) expressly provides that the Independent Committee is required to investigate “the circumstances that led to the fire”, a formulation of far-reaching significance that requires the Independent Committee not only to ascertain the direct cause of ignition, but also to conduct an in-depth examination of the deeper factors and systemic background that contributed to or exacerbated the outbreak and spread of the fire. In order to prevent similar tragedies from happening again, the more fundamental issue is to conduct an in-depth examination of whether the existing systems have any deficiencies or areas for improvement in preventing the occurrence of such type of incidents. 41. In this regard, ToR item (1) expressly lists a number of specific areas that the Committee is required to examine. 42. In examining the various systemic issues, the Independent Committee will need to have an appreciation of the historical background and technical complexity of Hong Kong’s system for regulating building management

-13- and maintenance works. The Government sets out a brief submission here in the hope that it will assist the Independent Committee. 43. The various existing systems relating to building maintenance works, site safety, building management and fire safety have not been established overnight, but have evolved over decades of policy development and legislative evolution, with building owners, the industry (including authorised professionals and contractors, among others) and various Government departments each playing their respective roles and working in a complementary fashion. The technical aspects involved in these systems – including construction works specifications, fire safety standards, building material requirements and site supervision mechanisms – all involve professional considerations. The Independent Committee will be able to, through the evidence of the relevant parties including Government departmental officers and expert witnesses – and in particular their detailed explanations on the above technical matters and systemic background – fully understand how the systems operate; and on that basis, objectively examine whether the existing arrangements have any deficiencies or areas for improvement, and assess the relevant roles and responsibilities of the various parties. 44. As shown by the records, the FSD had received notification from a registered fire service installation contractor prior to the fire that the fire hydrant/hose reel systems of the eight blocks of Wang Fuk Court were required to be shut down for maintenance. However, until the fire broke out, the FSD had not been notified of any need to shut down the fire alarm systems of the eight blocks of Wang Fuk Court. Nonetheless, preliminary indications suggest that at the time of the Wang Fuk Court fire, the fire alarm systems of at least seven of the eight affected blocks were not

-14- functioning effectively. The Independent Committee will therefore examine, under the existing system, the roles of Government departments, building owners, the industry (including authorised professionals and contractors, among others) and other stakeholders (including property management companies, among others), as well as the regulatory and relevant supervisory systems and areas for improvement, in respect of the effective operation of fire service installations. 45. Construction safety requirements, standards, supervision, site and building management and day-to-day maintenance regime for building maintenance works: The Independent Committee will be able to examine the existing legislative and regulatory framework, in particular regarding temporary construction measures used in external wall maintenance works on multi- storey buildings, including scaffolding, wooden planks, safety nets (commonly known as “scaffolding nets”) and toe-boards. This includes the roles of Government departments, building owners, the industry (including authorised professionals and contractors, among others) and other stakeholders (including property management companies, among others) under the existing system, as well as the regulatory and relevant supervisory systems and areas for improvement, including whether the existing safety standards (such as applicable fire-retardant standards) are sufficiently clear and specific, and whether the penalties carry sufficient deterrence. As regards the supervisory system, the Independent Committee may further examine whether the existing mechanisms can effectively ensure that specified building materials and construction procedures comply with the requirements of the relevant regulations and safety standards during the course of the works, and whether the existing supervision can achieve effective on-site verification and inspection of actual conditions on the construction site. Furthermore, the Independent

-15- Committee may assess, in terms of the overall design of the industry regulatory framework, site supervision, site and building management and day-to-day maintenance regime, and whether the relevant systems have structural gaps or deficiencies. 46. The prevailing list of materials meeting safety standards (such as applicable fire-retardant standards) and the verification and testing systems for the relevant building materials: As regards the requirements under the existing system for the use of materials meeting safety standards (such as applicable fire-retardant standards) in building maintenance works, whether such requirements are sufficiently clear, practically workable and conducive to proper site management, covering key categories of building materials in accordance with risk; and whether the existing inspection mechanism can effectively identify and intercept use of non-compliant materials at construction sites – these are matters on which the Independent Committee will be able to rely at the hearings on explanations from the relevant experts and persons with experience in material testing and works supervision (including officers of the relevant Government departments involved in the Wang Fuk Court maintenance works). 47. The roles and responsibilities of supervisory personnel, building owners and the industry across all stages: The safe implementation of building maintenance works is directly related to the ability of citizens to live and work in peace and contentment. As noted above, the regulatory landscape under the existing system – in which Government departments, building owners, the industry (including authorised professionals and contractors, among others) and other stakeholders (including property management companies, among others) work in a complementary and mutually supportive manner – has its historical development and objective technical

-16- reasons. The relevant Government departments will provide detailed explanations to the Independent Committee on the regulatory arrangements and specific implementation within their purview, rendering full assistance to the Independent Committee in clarifying the division of roles and responsibilities at each stage. E. Systemic Issues of Conflicts of Interest, Collusion and Irregularities in Tendering 48. Regarding the issues falling within ToR item (2), the Government agrees with the observation made by Leading Counsel of the Independent Committee at the Direction Conference on 5 February 2026 that these matters must be dealt with in the overriding interests of the public. In relation to the above matters, law enforcement agencies are also conducting independent criminal investigations and prosecution proceedings. It is in the public interest to ascertain the truth, establish accountability and ensure that legal proceedings are conducted fairly. It is certainly not in the public interest for those who ought to be held legally responsible to escape accountability. 49. Based on the information currently available, the involvement of the relevant Government departments in the tendering process for the Wang Fuk Court maintenance works appears, on a preliminary basis, to have not been significant. The relevant Government departments will uphold the principle of public interest above all else, maintain transparency throughout the Independent Committee’s investigation, and assist the Independent Committee in discharging its duties under the ToR. 50. Furthermore, the Government notes that Leading Counsel of the Independent Committee specifically emphasised at the Direction Conference that the scope of ToR item (2) is not limited to the individual

-17- Wang Fuk Court project itself, but extends to wider systemic issues. In this regard, the relevant Government departments will likewise cooperate with the Committee’s investigative work and provide information and assistance on the broader systemic issues. F. Improvement Measures 51. Following the Wang Fuk Court fire, the Government fully understands its responsibility to take immediate action to address public concerns and to drive reforms to the relevant systems, so as to ensure that similar tragedies do not happen again. The Chief Executive has also pledged that the investigation will hold all parties to full account, and has initiated the launching of improvement measures across all areas in support of and to assist the Independent Committee’s comprehensive review, with a view to completing the work as expeditiously as possible and implementing the systemic reforms. 52. ToR items (3) and (4) respectively require the Independent Committee to examine whether regulation and penalties under relevant existing laws are adequate, and to make recommendations on the matters covered by ToR items (1) to (3). These two ToR are expected to provide important directions for the Government’s push for reform in light of the issues revealed by the fire. The Government understands that the Independent Committee’s investigation findings and recommendations will provide important guidance for future systemic reforms. The relevant Government departments will also give serious consideration to and respond positively to the recommendations made by the Independent Committee in its final report on the above matters. 53. In the meantime, the Government has taken action on the various issues revealed by the fire at both the levels of immediate response and medium-

-18- to-long-term systemic reforms. The immediate measures aim to provide necessary safeguards for the most pressing issues in the existing system; the medium-to-long-term reform measures await implementation of systemic reforms on a more comprehensive basis. The following paragraphs set out an overview of some of the immediate and proposed medium-to-long-term measures taken by the relevant Government departments since the fire. 54. The relevant measures reflect both the Government’s serious concern about the various issues revealed by the fire and its commitment and determination to systemic reforms. The Government firmly believes that the Independent Committee’s investigative work will provide a solid foundation for driving more comprehensive and deeper systemic reforms in the future, and the Government will also respond positively and substantively after the Independent Committee has made its recommendations. Immediate Measures 55. In order to deal with fire service installation and equipment problems discovered during fire incidents in a timely and effective manner, the FSD has established a dedicated Quick Response Team operating on a round- the-clock standby basis since 4 December 2025. The Quick Response Team will be deployed to respond to all building fires to examine the operation of fire service installations during fires, and to take immediate follow-up or enforcement action where necessary. 56. Furthermore, in view of the potential fire risks that may arise from large- scale building maintenance / renovation works, the FSD immediately reallocated internal resources to establish a dedicated task force to conduct focused inspections of the fire service installation conditions of the

-19- relevant buildings. The inspection work has commenced since 4 December 2025. 57. With effect from 6 January 2026, the FSD introduced targeted measures to strengthen alerts on fire service installation failures, requiring all registered fire service installation contractors, when shutting down fire service installations, to fulfil their obligations to identify, assess and report the cascading effects on other installations, and to disclose the impairment of fire service installations to the building’s owners, occupants and property management company, thereby enhancing the overall fire safety of buildings. In addition, the FSD has optimised the management of fire service installation power supplies and introduced new requirements for the affixing of seals and management standards, whereby contractors are required to affix green or red seals to the power switches according to the power supply status of the fire service installations, so as to ensure that the building’s owners, occupants and property management company can immediately ascertain the status of the main fire service power supply. 58. Furthermore, in response to the problem of scaffolding nets of varying quality, the Development Bureau on 3 December 2025 ordered all scaffolding nets on buildings undergoing large-scale maintenance works to be removed within three working days, and immediately reviewed and reformed the arrangements for testing scaffolding nets, establishing multiple checkpoints in the system to ensure that only scaffolding nets that have passed tests may be used in the relevant maintenance works (details as set out in paragraph 60 below). 59. The BD also immediately launched a special operation to inspect approximately 400 private buildings undergoing large-scale maintenance works with scaffolding erected, to check fire-retardant test reports and

-20- certificates for scaffolding nets, and to collect samples of scaffolding nets on-site for testing by accredited laboratories. The BD also issued a circular to all registered building professionals and registered contractors on 27 November 2025, requiring all contractors to submit reports on the scaffolding nets / protective screens on the external walls of buildings under their charge, together with the relevant certificates and test reports from accredited laboratories, to confirm compliance with recognised fire- retardant standards and that the materials are in good condition. Subsequently, from late December 2025, the BD had also launched a special inspection operation to examine whether the maintenance and repair works at over 300 buildings were in proper compliance with the relevant fire safety precautionary measures, such as whether fire barriers (including fire doors and fire-resistant fixed windows) had been removed. The enhanced inspection of large-scale building maintenance sites has continued as a regular exercise after the completion of the above special operation. 60. To ensure that scaffolding protective materials comply with recognised standards and to effectively address the problem of forged test reports, the BD promulgated Practice Note for Registered Contractors No. 85 in mid- December 2025, introducing three main new requirements. First, registered contractors are required to obtain fire-retardant performance test reports provided with each batch of scaffolding nets received, and to keep them on the construction site for inspection by enforcement authorities at any time. Second, registered contractors are required to take samples of scaffolding nets for testing as required, including the requirement that, before commencing the relevant works on an existing building, samples of scaffolding nets must first be taken and a test report confirming compliance with recognised fire-retardant performance standards must be obtained

-21- before the scaffolding nets may be installed, thereby ensuring that scaffolding nets used on construction sites comply with fire-retardant performance standards. In addition, inspection of scaffolding nets must be conducted by Government-designated accredited laboratories, and test reports must be encrypted and digitally signed to ensure their authenticity and integrity. Third, upon receipt of a notification of scaffolding net installation, the BD will randomly select certain projects where scaffolding nets have been installed for on-site inspection. If it is found that a contractor has not complied with the requirements of the new system, or if the results of random sampling tests fail to meet the recognised fire- retardant standards, the BD will make an immediate cease work order and require the removal of non-compliant scaffolding nets, and will reserve the right to take other appropriate punitive action in accordance with the law. 61. The BD held a seminar in late January 2026 to remind the industry of the requirements under the new scaffolding net sampling and testing system, as well as the fire safety matters to be observed during building maintenance works. In early March, the BD also issued a circular letter to registered building professionals and registered contractors, once again reminding the industry of the need to observe and comply with the relevant fire safety codes and measures for buildings during large-scale building maintenance works. 62. Following the fire, the ICU immediately cooperated with the BD’s special operation to conduct on-site inspections of Home Ownership Scheme estates and Tenants Purchase Scheme estates undergoing large-scale repair and improvement works, and in response to the circular issued by the BD to all registered professionals and contractors on 27 November 2025, required the contractors of the relevant estates to submit relevant

-22- certificates and test reports on the scaffolding nets / protective screens installed on the external walls of buildings, to confirm compliance with recognised fire prevention standards and that the materials are in good condition. Following the Development Bureau’s order to remove scaffolding nets in early December 2025, the ICU has continued to conduct inspections of the scaffolding conditions of the above estates. 63. The LD also immediately launched a citywide special enforcement operation to inspect the fire prevention facilities and fire response arrangements at building maintenance construction sites with large scaffolding erected. The LD subsequently continued to follow up on the rectification of non-compliant sites and sites from which external wall scaffolding nets had been removed, so as to safeguard workers’ safety. 64. In terms of estate management, in response to the unprecedented management challenges faced by Wang Fuk Court following the fire, the Secretary for Home Affairs and Youth invoked section 31 of the Building Management Ordinance (Cap. 344) for the first time to apply to the Lands Tribunal to dissolve the management committee of the existing Incorporated Owners of Wang Fuk Court and to appoint Hop On Management Company Limited (“Hop On”), a subsidiary of the Chinachem Group, as the administrator. The Lands Tribunal granted the application on 6 January 2026, and Hop On has commenced its work. Medium-to-Long-Term Reform Measures 65. Fire Services Department: The FSD has established a “Mega-scale Fire Incidents Strategic Steering Committee” to review the effectiveness of operations in handling major fires and areas for improvement. The FSD will deepen rescue cooperation and coordination mechanism with the Guangdong-Hong Kong-Macao Greater Bay Area, incorporating major

-23- fire incidents into the scope of cooperation and drills, and optimising the coordination procedures for fire operations among the three places. Furthermore, in terms of technology application, the FSD will enhance the use of big data and artificial intelligence to analyse inspection-derived risk data and formulate targeted mitigation strategies, and will explore the adoption of the latest technology for continuous monitoring of the operational status of fire service installations. To further enhance overall fire safety, the FSD has established a “Legislative Amendment Working Group” to conduct a dedicated review of the existing legal framework for regulating fire service installations and equipment, regulating registered fire service installation contractors, and eliminating fire hazards, so as to identify areas suitable for amendment or update and to implement a series of legislative amendments. In terms of regulating fire service installations and equipment, the FSD proposes the introduction of a legislative provision requiring that the shutting down of fire service installations of a building must first obtain the Department’s approval, so as to strengthen the FSD’s regulatory function. In addition, it is proposed to introduce the statutory management responsibility of property management companies for fire service installations in buildings, making property management companies statutory responsible parties for fire safety in the system. In terms of regulating registered fire service installation contractors, it is proposed to significantly increase the penalties for registered contractors who issue false or misleading fire service installation and equipment certificates, so as to enhance the deterring effect. As regards offences related to fire hazards, it is proposed to introduce a fixed penalty system for certain readily verifiable contraventions, so as to enhance enforcement efficiency and the certainty and consistency of penalties.

-24- 66. Labour Department: The LD is amending legislation to implement a comprehensive smoking ban on construction sites, including requiring contractors to take all reasonable measures to implement a no-smoking policy on construction sites, and to penalise persons who smoke on construction sites with a fixed penalty, thereby improving safety levels at construction sites. At the same time, the LD is revising the Code of Practice relevant to scaffolding and setting out requirements for the materials used for what is commonly known as toe boards. 67. Development Bureau and Buildings Department: In terms of the regulatory framework, the scope of amendments to the Buildings Ordinance will be expanded to include: upgrading large-scale maintenance works from their current classification mainly as Class 2 minor works to Class 1 minor works, so as to enhance regulatory requirements by specifying that prescribed plans must be prepared and supervision conducted by a third- party professional; and making the safety standards for specified building materials currently promulgated by the BD through Practice Notes and other administrative means into statutory requirements, so as to enable direct prosecution for non-compliant materials and to increase penalties. It is also proposed to enhance regulation of registered building professionals and registered contractors, including increasing the maximum penalties for contraventions and strengthening the registration and disciplinary system – for example, so that future conviction under the Prevention of Bribery Ordinance may also give rise to disciplinary action and be taken into consideration as a factor in registration renewal. Additionally, the BD will strengthen audit checks and enforcement on a risk-based approach. 68. Furthermore, in order to reduce the risk of bid-rigging, the Development Bureau is working with the Urban Renewal Authority to formulate

-25- measures and plans to launch an enhanced “Smart Tender” service in the second half of this year, including: (1) formulating a more stringent pre- qualification list of consultants and contractors, which in addition to considering criminal and disciplinary records will also take into account more information reflecting past performance; consultants and contractors will also be required to pass background checks by the Police and Independent Commission Against Corruption before being included in the list and participating in tenders; (2) the Urban Renewal Authority will act as a gatekeeper for building owners in conducting tendering and evaluation work for engaging consultants and contractors; and (3) for buildings applying for Government maintenance subsidies, the Urban Renewal Authority will require consultants and contractors to report to the Urban Renewal Authority at important project milestones, such as significant changes in the scope of works or increases in project costs. so that the Urban Renewal Authority can provide independent advice to building owners. The 2026-27 Budget recently announced proposes to allocate a total of $300 million to the Urban Renewal Authority, of which $100 million is seed funding to enable the Urban Renewal Authority to establish a dedicated team to provide the enhanced “Smart Tender” service, and the remaining $200 million will be used as subsidies to encourage building owners to use the enhanced “Smart Tender” service. 69. ICU: The ICU will continue to carry out the relevant building control work in accordance with the regulatory framework of the BD and the safety requirements for building materials, including the newly established standards mentioned above. In addition, the ICU proposes to strengthen inter-departmental cooperation in respect of the relevant regulation of large-scale repair works, for example by jointly handling complaints and enquiries with broad impact. At the same time, the ICU will also discuss

-26- with the BD the feasibility of requiring professionals to submit on-site supervision records for large-scale repair works, so as to enhance the scrutiny of inspections. 70. Home Affairs Department: The Home Affairs Department will leverage its role in maintaining close liaison with owners’ corporations to facilitate communication and coordination between the relevant Government departments and owners’ corporations. In addition, the Home Affairs Department has preliminarily formulated five major directions for amendment to the Building Management Ordinance, including: raising the attendance and in-person voting thresholds for decisions on large-scale maintenance works and major procurement; enhancing the system for proxy instruments; enhancing the system for declaration of interests; clarifying meeting procedures; and strengthening the powers of the competent authority. 71. At the overall systemic level, the fire has also revealed that there is room for further optimisation of the existing inter-departmental collaboration mechanism. Each relevant department will systematically optimise its collaboration mechanism with other departments across four levels: policy formulation, day-to-day inspection, enforcement action and emergency crisis management. 72. The relevant Government bureaux and departments will strive to push forward and implement the above-announced improvement measures as early as possible, and to continuously review and study further measures, so that the system can be improved at the earliest opportunity and citizens can benefit from a better system as soon as possible. The Government will also make further improvements and refinements after the Independent Committee has completed its investigation and made its recommendations.

-27- G. Other Matters 73. As regards the roles, responsibilities and related legal issues of other parties involved in the Inquiry, subject to the further disclosure of relevant information by the Independent Committee and completion of evidence by the relevant witnesses and experts in the course of the hearings, the Government will make a comprehensive and full submission on its position.

-28- H. Conclusion 74. The Independent Committee’s investigation bears the important mission of ascertaining the truth, establishing accountability and driving reform. The Government fully understands that only through the Independent Committee’s comprehensive review, with objective, fair and comprehensive findings on the various issues revealed by the fire, can the heartfelt expectations of the families of the deceased, the residents of Wang Fuk Court and the public at large for a just account be truly met. 75. The Government will cooperate fully with the work of the Independent Committee throughout the investigative process, with a view to driving substantive and far-reaching reforms at the systemic level to prevent similar tragedies from happening again. The Government expects that, through the Inquiry and follow-up work thereafter, Hong Kong’s building safety and fire safety systems will be reviewed and improved, the safety protection afforded by the relevant systems will be substantively strengthened, and the reasonable expectations of the public will be duly met.

[Original Chinese version submitted to the Independent Committee in relation to the fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po on 9 March 2026] Jenkin Suen SC Calvin Cheuk Michael Lok Charlie Liu

FD06224 | 2025_港澳台_香港大埔宏福苑-特别重大火灾事故调查报告(政府结案陈词).pdf

分类:06_境外及港澳台调查报告 | 年份:2025 | 地域:香港 | 严重程度:特别重大 | 场所: | 起火原因: | 来源格式:pdf

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Independent Committee in relation to the fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po Written Closing Submissions of the Relevant Bureaux and Departments of the Government

PART I: INTRODUCTION ................................................................................................................ 9 A. THE WANG FUK COURT (“WFC”) FIRE ............................................................... 9 A1. THE WFC FIRE ....................................................................................................................... 9 A2. THE GOVERNMENT’S IMMEDIATE RESPONSE – THE THREE TASK FORCES ............................. 11 B. ESTABLISHMENT OF THE INDEPENDENT COMMITTEE ............................. 13 B1. THE CHIEF EXECUTIVE’S DECISION TO SET UP THE INDEPENDENT COMMITTEE (“COMMITTEE”) ................................................................................................................................ 13 B2. THE COMMITTEE’S TERMS OF REFERENCE (“TOR”) ............................................................. 15 B3. THE INVOLVED PARTIES ........................................................................................................ 17 B4. LEGAL REPRESENTATION OF THE INVOLVED GOVERNMENT BUREAUX / DEPARTMENTS ....... 18 B5. HOW THE INVOLVED GOVERNMENT BUREAUX / DEPARTMENTS HAVE ASSISTED THE COMMITTEE’S WORK, AND THEIR OVERALL APPROACH TO THE INQUIRY .......................................... 19 C. THE COMMITTEE’S TREATMENT OF EVIDENCE AND MAKING OF FINDINGS 21 C1. THE PURPOSE OF THE INQUIRY .............................................................................................. 21 C2. THE HANDLING OF EVIDENCE RECEIVED BY THE COMMITTEE ............................................... 22 C3. BURDEN/STANDARD OF PROOF ............................................................................................. 24 C4. “CAUSATION” IN THE LEGAL CONTEXT ................................................................................. 28 D. OVERVIEW OF THE GOVERNMENT’S CASE .................................................... 31 PART II: BACKGROUND TO WFC AND THE WFC FIRE ...................................................... 42 E. WFC ............................................................................................................................... 42 E1. WFC AND THE SURROUNDING AREA ..................................................................................... 42 E2. MANAGEMENT OF THE WFC AFFAIRS AT THE MATERIAL TIME ............................................. 44 (i) The PMC .......................................................................................................................... 44 (ii) The IO and MC ................................................................................................................ 46 E3. INTRODUCTION TO THE FSI SYSTEM AT WFC ....................................................................... 47 E4. STATUTORY CONTROL OF WFC BY THE ICU ........................................................................ 52 (i) The background of delegation from the BD to ICU ......................................................... 52 (ii) “Administrative control” vs. “statutory control” ........................................................... 56 (iii) The scope of delegation ................................................................................................... 58 E5. ISSUANCE OF THE STATUTORY NOTICES TO WFC UNDER THE MBIS..................................... 61 E6. THE WFC RENOVATION WORKS FOLLOWING COMPLETION OF THE MBIS INSPECTION – MAINLY GOVERNED BY THE MWCS ................................................................................................. 63 E7. BEFORE THE WFC FIRE – THE MARINERS’ CLUB INCIDENT (2023) AND CHINACHEM TOWER INCIDENT (OCTOBER 2025, SHORTLY BEFORE THE WFC FIRE) .......................................................... 64 F. THE REGULATORY FRAMEWORK UNDER EACH RELEVANT AREA AND STAKEHOLDERS’ ROLES AND RESPONSIBILITIES ............................................................ 69 F1. GENERAL BUILDING MANAGEMENT UNDER PRIVATE OWNERSHIP ......................................... 69

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(i) The regulatory framework and model.............................................................................. 69 (ii) The Government’s facilitative role (for the case of WFC) .............................................. 71 (iii) The other stakeholders’ responsibilities - owners and the PMC ..................................... 72 F2. OWNERS’ ENGAGEMENT OF PROFESSIONALS FOR MAINTENANCE OF THE FSI SYSTEM .......... 73 (i) The regulatory framework and model for ownership and maintenance of FSIs ............. 73 (ii) The Government’s facilitative role .................................................................................. 74 (iii) The other stakeholders’ responsibilities – owners, the PMC, contractors, consultant and RI .................................................................................................................................... 76 F3. OWNERS’ ENGAGEMENT OF BUILDING PROFESSIONALS FOR CARRYING OUT BUILDING- OR ESTATE-WIDE INSPECTIONS AND RENOVATION WORKS ...................................................................... 77 (i) The regulatory framework and model.............................................................................. 77 (ii) The Government’s facilitative role .................................................................................. 78 (iii) The other stakeholders’ responsibilities – owners and the PMC .................................... 80 F4. MANAGEMENT OF FIRE RISKS AND MAINTENANCE OF FSI ..................................................... 81 (i) The regulatory framework and model.............................................................................. 81 (ii) The Government’s supervisory role - the BD and FSD ................................................... 83 (iii) The other stakeholders’ responsibilities – owners, the PMC and RFSICs ...................... 88 F5. REGULATION AND SUPERVISION OF CONSTRUCTION METHODS, PROCEDURES AND USE OF MATERIALS UNDER THE MBIS AND MWCS...................................................................................... 89 (i) The regulatory framework and model.............................................................................. 89 (ii) The Government’s supervisory role ................................................................................. 92 (iii) The other stakeholders’ responsibilities – owners, the PMC and building professionals ........................................................................................................................................ 94 F6. REGULATION AND SUPERVISION OF BUILDING PROFESSIONALS – REGISTERED INSPECTORS (I.E. RI) UNDER THE MBIS AND REGISTERED CONTRACTORS (I.E. RC) FOR CARRYING OUT WORKS .. 95 (i) The regulatory framework and model.............................................................................. 95 (ii) The Government’s supervisory role ................................................................................. 97 F7. REGULATION AND SUPERVISION OF OCCUPATIONAL HEALTH AND SAFETY ......................... 100 (i) The regulatory framework and model............................................................................ 100 (ii) The Government’s supervisory role ............................................................................... 101 (iii) The other stakeholders’ responsibilities – owners, the PMC and building professionals ...................................................................................................................................... 103 PART III: TOR 1 ............................................................................................................................. 104 G. THE CAUSES AND ORIGIN OF THE FIRE, SPREAD OF FIRE AND HEAVY CASUALTIES - THE INTER-DEPARTMENTAL FIRE INVESTIGATION TASK FORCE’S GENERAL FINDINGS ................................................................................................................... 104 G1. A BRIEF CHRONOLOGY OF THE FIRE WITH ALL OF THE FACTORS CONTRIBUTING TO THE FIRE, SPREAD OF FIRE AND HEAVY CASUALTIES SUMMED UP .................................................................... 104 G2. THE INTER-DEPARTMENTAL FIRE INVESTIGATION TASK FORCE ......................................... 107 G3. THE IFITF’S GENERAL FINDINGS ON THE CAUSE AND ORIGIN OF THE FIRE .......................... 108 G4. THE IFITF’S GENERAL FINDINGS ON THE RAPID SPREAD OF THE FIRE ................................. 110 G5. THE IFITF’S GENERAL FINDINGS ON THE HEAVY CASUALTIES CAUSED BY THE FIRE ........... 115 G6. THE COMMITTEE’S INDEPENDENT EXPERT EVIDENCE AND AREAS OF AGREEMENT ............ 122 PART III(A): ON THE FIREFIGHTING AND RESCUE OPERATIONS .............................. 128 H. THE EVENTS FROM 26 TO 28 NOVEMBER 2025 ............................................. 128 H1. THE FSD ............................................................................................................................. 128

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H2. EVIDENCE ON THE FIREFIGHTING OPERATION – DIFFERENT PHASES OF THE WFC FIRE WITH REFERENCE TO THE FIRE ALARM LEVELS AND DEPLOYMENT OF RESOURCES ................................... 129 (i) Breakout of the fire (No. 1 Fire Alarm) ......................................................................... 129 (ii) No.3 Fire Alarm (including setting up of the Director’s Command Post) .................... 133 (iii) No.4 Fire Alarm ............................................................................................................. 136 (iv) No.5 Fire Alarm ............................................................................................................. 138 (v) Handover of command at 0935 hours on 2025.11.27 .................................................... 141 (vi) Declaration of the fire being “surrounded”, “under control” and delivery of the “STOP” message .......................................................................................................... 141 H3. EVIDENCE ON THE RESCUE OPERATION ............................................................................... 142 (i) Handling of 999 calls since the first call received ......................................................... 142 (ii) Evacuation at the early stages of the fire, in particular the status of the fire alarms at each of the eight blocks ................................................................................................ 145 (iii) The rescue operation...................................................................................................... 147 H4. EVIDENCE ON THE CHALLENGES AND DIFFICULTIES FACED BY THE FSD FRONTLINE OFFICERS

150 H5. EVIDENCE ON THE SETTING UP OF THE COMMAND POST FOR THE DISASTER VICTIM IDENTIFICATION UNIT (“DVIU”) ON 2025.11.28 AND DVIU’S OPERATION ................................... 155 H6. EVIDENCE ON CASUALTIES AND DAMAGE ........................................................................... 158 (i) The passing of Senior Fireman Ho Wai-ho ................................................................... 158 (ii) Other casualties and the Police’s Casualty Enquiry Unit (“CEU”) ............................. 161 (iii) Damage to property ....................................................................................................... 162 PART III(B): START OF THE FIRE ........................................................................................... 164 I. WORKERS SMOKING ONSITE ............................................................................ 164 I1. PREVALENCE OF WORKERS SMOKING ONSITE ...................................................................... 165 (i) The various complaints made by the WFC residents / IO to Prestige / Will Power, the PMC and LD ................................................................................................................. 165 (ii) The presence of photographic / video, contemporaneous and other factual evidence showing workers smoking onsite .................................................................................. 167 I2. HOW WORKERS SMOKING ONSITE RESULTED IN START OF THE FIRE .................................... 168 (i) The relevant factual evidence ........................................................................................ 168 (ii) The IFITF’s investigations ............................................................................................. 168 I3. THE PRIMARY AND SUPERVISORY RESPONSIBILITIES FOR SUCH CONTRIBUTING FACTOR ..... 169 (i) The regulatory and supervisory regime for workers smoking onsite ............................ 169 (ii) The primary responsibilities of Prestige and the PMC, including site management .... 171 (iii) The Government’s supervisory responsibilities ............................................................. 172 (iv) The actions taken by the LD at WFC ............................................................................. 174 (v) The role of the FSD ........................................................................................................ 175 I4. SYSTEMIC AND/OR OPERATIONAL WEAKNESSES ON THE REGULATORY LEVEL .................... 176 PART III(C): RAPID SPREAD OF THE FIRE ........................................................................... 180 J. THE USE OF SCAFFOLDING NETS UNCERTIFIED FOR FR PROPERTIES

180 J1. USE OF SCAFFOLDING NETS UNCERTIFIED FOR FR PROPERTIES AT WFC ............................. 180 (i) The various complaints made by the WFC residents / IO to Prestige / Will Power, the PMC and Government Departments ............................................................................ 184 (ii) The relevant conversation records and other factual evidence ..................................... 185 (iii) The unreliable test certificate presented by Prestige ..................................................... 186

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J2. HOW THE USE OF SCAFFOLDING NETS UNCERTIFIED FOR FR PROPERTIES RESULTED IN RAPID SPREAD OF THE FIRE ........................................................................................................................ 187 (i) The relevant factual evidence ........................................................................................ 187 (ii) The IFITF’s investigations and expert evidence ............................................................ 187 J3. THE PRIMARY AND SUPERVISORY RESPONSIBILITIES FOR SUCH CONTRIBUTING FACTOR ..... 188 (i) The FR standards and other requirements applicable to scaffolding nets administered by the BD ........................................................................................................................... 188 (ii) The primary responsibilities of Prestige and the RI ...................................................... 190 (iii) The Government’s supervisory responsibilities ............................................................. 192 (iv) The actions taken by the ICU at WFC, including the ICU’s practice of giving advance notice ............................................................................................................................ 193 (v) The actions taken by the LD at WFC ............................................................................. 197 J4. SYSTEMIC AND/OR OPERATIONAL WEAKNESSES ON THE REGULATORY LEVEL .................... 198 K. THE USE OF POLYVINYL CHLORIDE FOAM BOARDS AS COVERS ON WINDOWS AS TEMPORARY PROTECTION .......................................................................... 204 K1. EXTENSIVE USE OF FOAM BOARDS ...................................................................................... 205 (i) The various complaints made by the WFC residents / IO to Prestige / Will Power, the PMC and Government Departments ............................................................................ 207 (ii) The relevant conversation records and other factual evidence ..................................... 207 (iii) The actual manner of use of foam boards at WFC ........................................................ 209 K2. HOW THE EXTENSIVE USE OF FOAM BOARDS TO COVER UP WINDOWS RESULTED IN RAPID SPREAD OF THE FIRE AND HEAVY CASUALTIES ................................................................................ 210 (i) The relevant factual evidence ........................................................................................ 210 (ii) The IFITF’s investigations and expert evidence ............................................................ 210 K3. THE PRIMARY AND SUPERVISORY RESPONSIBILITIES FOR SUCH CONTRIBUTING FACTOR ..... 211 (i) The standards and requirements applicable to the use of foam boards as protection .. 211 (ii) The primary responsibilities of Prestige and the RI ...................................................... 214 (iii) The Government’s supervisory responsibilities ............................................................. 214 (iv) The actions taken by the ICU at WFC ........................................................................... 217 (v) The actions taken by the FSD at WFC ........................................................................... 219 K4. SYSTEMIC AND/OR OPERATIONAL WEAKNESSES ON THE REGULATORY LEVEL .................... 220 L. THE USE OF OTHER NON-FR CONSTRUCTION

MATERIALS

SPECIFICALLY, PLASTIC SHEETS / CANVAS ...................................................................... 225 L1. USE OF OTHER NON-FR CONSTRUCTION MATERIALS – THE RELEVANT EVIDENCE ............... 225 L2. HOW THE USE OF OTHER NON-FR CONSTRUCTION MATERIALS RESULTED IN RAPID SPREAD OF THE FIRE .......................................................................................................................................... 229 (i) Plastic sheets and canvas............................................................................................... 229 (ii) Toe-boards, wooden planks, nylon strips ...................................................................... 230 L3. THE PRIMARY AND SUPERVISORY RESPONSIBILITIES FOR SUCH CONTRIBUTING FACTOR ..... 231 (i) The FR standards and other requirements applicable to such other construction materials ....................................................................................................................... 231 (ii) The primary responsibilities of Prestige and the RI ...................................................... 232 (iii) The Government’s supervisory responsibilities on the use of such other construction materials ....................................................................................................................... 232 L4. SYSTEMIC AND/OR OPERATIONAL WEAKNESSES ON THE REGULATORY LEVEL .................... 233 PART III(D): OTHER FACTORS CONTRIBUTING TO THE HEAVY CASUALTIES ..... 236

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M. UNTENABILITY OF THE MEANS OF ESCAPE CAUSED BY CREATION OF ACCESSES 236 M1. CREATION OF WOODEN OR METALLIC ACCESSES AT ESCAPE STAIRCASES AT EVERY FIVE LEVELS OF WFC – THE RELEVANT CONVERSATION RECORDS AND OTHER FACTUAL EVIDENCE SHOWING THE MANNER OF CREATION OF SUCH ACCESSES AT WFC ................................................ 237 M2. HOW THE CREATION OF SUCH ACCESSES AT ESCAPE STAIRCASES RESULTED IN RAPID SPREAD, AS WELL AS SUCH HEAVY CASUALTIES ............................................................................................ 239 (i) The relevant factual evidence ........................................................................................ 239 (ii) The IFITF’s investigations ............................................................................................. 240 M3. THE PRIMARY AND SUPERVISORY RESPONSIBILITIES FOR SUCH CONTRIBUTING FACTOR ..... 240 (i) The standards and requirements applicable to the creation and use of such accesses and the LD’s occupational health and safety perspective ................................................... 240 (ii) The primary responsibilities of Prestige and the RI ...................................................... 243 (iii) The Government’s supervisory responsibilities ............................................................. 244 (iv) The actions taken by the ICU in the case of WFC ......................................................... 246 M4. SYSTEMIC AND/OR OPERATIONAL WEAKNESSES ON THE REGULATORY LEVEL .................... 246 N. THE FAILURE OF ALL FIRE ALARMS AT WFC ............................................. 250 N1. THE FAS AT EACH BLOCK OF WFC BEING SHUT DOWN ...................................................... 251 (i) The part of WFC renovation works touching on the FH/HR System ............................. 251 (ii) The engagement of China Status as the RFSIC ............................................................. 253 (iii) How the FAS was eventually deactivated by a staff member of the PMC ..................... 256 (iv) The maintenance and repair works carried out by Victory Fire at WFC from October to November 2025 up to the day of the fire ...................................................................... 259 N2. HOW THE SHUTDOWN OF THE FAS RESULTED IN SUCH HEAVY CASUALTIES ....................... 262 (i) The relevant factual evidence ........................................................................................ 262 (ii) The IFITF’s investigations and expert evidence ............................................................ 263 N3. THE PRIMARY AND SUPERVISORY RESPONSIBILITIES FOR SUCH CONTRIBUTING FACTOR ..... 264 (i) The regulatory and supervisory regime for the shutdown of FSI .................................. 264 (ii) The primary responsibilities of Prestige and the RI ...................................................... 267 (iii) The primary responsibilities of China Status................................................................. 269 (iv) The primary responsibilities of the PMC ....................................................................... 272 (v) The primary responsibilities of Victory Fire ................................................................. 274 (vi) The Government’s supervisory responsibilities: ........................................................... 275 (vii) The FSD’s handling of the FS251s and SDNs in the case of WFC and actions taken .. 280 N4. SYSTEMIC AND/OR OPERATIONAL WEAKNESSES ON THE REGULATORY LEVEL .................... 282 PART III(E): CONCERNS ON THE FIREFIGHTING AND RESCUE OPERATIONS ....... 291 O. THE GOVERNMENT’S REVIEW OF THE FIREFIGHTING AND RESCUE OPERATIONS ................................................................................................................................. 291 O1. THE TACTICAL CONSIDERATION TO CONTROL THE FIRE AT EACH AFFECTED BUILDING ACCORDING TO THE CIRCUMSTANCES AT THE EARLY STAGE OF THE FIRE INSTEAD OF DEPLOYING MANPOWER TO CARRY OUT EVACUATION ....................................................................................... 293 (i) The FSD’s understanding with the Police ..................................................................... 293 (ii) The FSD’s tactical consideration and difficulties in carrying out evacuation .............. 295 (iii) Whether sufficient weight had been given to the failure of the fire alarms in deciding not to deploy manpower on evacuation .............................................................................. 298

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(iv) Whether there was sufficient attention paid on the horizontal spread of fire from Wang Tai House to other blocks and inward spread of fire from the façade into the building ...................................................................................................................................... 299 O2. THE ESCALATION OF FIRE ALARM LEVELS ........................................................................... 300 (i) Whether the fire could be escalated to higher fire alarm levels earlier for deployment of further resources to the fire scene ................................................................................ 300 (ii) Whether the current fire alarm levels are capable of covering varying features at different fire scenes, e.g. the fire risks arising from large-scale renovation projects .. 304 O3. THE JOINT-HANDLING OF 999 CALLS BY THE POLICE AND FSD IN THE CASE OF FIRE .......... 305 (i) The discretion on the Police’s side to decide whether to refer a call to the FSD’s side305 (ii) The waiting time for some calls to be referred to the FSD ............................................ 307 (iii) The repetition of requests for information and questions on the FSD’s side ................ 308 (iv) The advice given to callers, in particular whether callers should generally be advised to evacuate ........................................................................................................................ 309 (v) The sharing of information within the FSD on requests for rescue, and the FSD’s recording of information .............................................................................................. 310 (vi) The call-back arrangement ............................................................................................ 311 O4. THE SUFFICIENCY OF THE FSD’S VARIOUS COMMUNICATION SYSTEMS AT THE FIRE SCENE AND BETWEEN THE FSD CALL CENTRE / DIRECTOR’S COMMAND POST AND THE FIRE SCENE ......... 312 O5. THE SAFETY AND TRACKING OF FIREFIGHTERS ENTERING THE BLAZE ................................. 314 (i) The sufficiency of breathing apparatus and other equipment generally used by firefighters at the fire scene .......................................................................................... 314 (ii) The sufficiency of the Firefighter Location System ........................................................ 316 (iii) The (lack of) ECP at the early stage of the fire ............................................................. 317 O6. RESPONSE TO OTHER QUERIES / CRITICISMS RAISED ............................................................ 317 (i) Coordination among different teams of the FSD at the scene to be enhanced? ............ 317 (ii) The bamboo scaffolds should be dismantled first? ........................................................ 319 (iii) The EAS should be invoked? .......................................................................................... 320 (iv) Helicopters and other advanced technologies such as drones should be used in the firefighting operation? .................................................................................................. 322 (v) Additional support from the Chinese Mainland should be sought? .............................. 324 O7. REVIEW ............................................................................................................................... 325 (i) Improvements already introduced ................................................................................. 325 (ii) Improvements to be introduced, and further studies to be conducted ........................... 327 PART III(F): SYSTEMIC ISSUES ................................................................................................ 330 P. ABUSE OF THE SYSTEM BY PROFESSIONALS AND OTHER NON- GOVERNMENTAL PARTIES ...................................................................................................... 330 P1. PRESTIGE CONSTRUCTION & ENGINEERING COMPANY LIMITED ........................................ 331 P2. WILL POWER (CONSULTANT PURPORTEDLY PROVIDING RI SERVICES) AND NG YEUK (THE RI)

333 P3. CHINA STATUS .................................................................................................................... 335 P4. VICTORY FIRE ..................................................................................................................... 336 P5. ISS (THE PMC) ................................................................................................................... 337 P6. RESIDENTS AS VICTIMS OF THE CUMULATIVE EFFECT OF PRIVATE-ACTOR FAILURE ............ 339 Q. SYSTEMIC ISSUES ACROSS KEY CONTRIBUTING FACTORS ................... 341 Q1. RELIANCE ON THE SELF-REGULATION OF PROFESSIONALS, AND SUFFICIENCY OF AUDIT CHECKS AND SITE INSPECTIONS ....................................................................................................... 343 Q2. SUPERVISION OF PROFESSIONALS – RCS, RIS AND RFSICS ................................................ 344

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Q3. SUFFICIENCY OF THE RELEVANT PROCEDURAL GUIDELINES, CODES OF PRACTICE, ETC. ...... 345 Q4. INTERNAL AND EXTERNAL COMMUNICATIONS .................................................................... 348 (i) Internal communications between the BD and ICU under the delegation arrangement ...................................................................................................................................... 348 (ii) Internal communications between the Police and FSD during the firefighting and rescue operations ..................................................................................................................... 348 (iii) Internal communications across departments and referrals of complaints / enquiries – the roles of the 1823 hotline, the HAD and other relevant Government Departments under ToR 1 in referring complaints and enquiries to the appropriate Department(s) for handling ........................................................................................................................ 349 (iv) External communications with residents ....................................................................... 350 (v) External communications with building professionals .................................................. 350 Q5. STATUS OF TECHNOLOGY APPLICATION .............................................................................. 351 R. THE GOVERNMENT’S SUBMISSIONS IN CONCLUSION OF TOR 1 ........... 353 R1. CONCLUSIONS ON THE DIRECT CAUSES OF THE FIRE, SPREAD OF FIRE AND HEAVY CASUALTIES

353 R2. CONCLUSIONS ON RESPONSIBILITIES OF PROFESSIONALS AND OTHER NON-GOVERNMENTAL PARTIES ........................................................................................................................................... 355 R3. CONCLUSIONS ON THE GOVERNMENT’S SYSTEMIC AND OPERATIONAL ISSUES ................... 356 (i) The weaknesses of the self-regulation regime for the supervision of building professionals under the MBIS and MWCS, and RFSICs .............................................. 357 (ii) Areas for improvement concerning the audit checks and inspections to identify risks and problems ....................................................................................................................... 358 (iii) Inadequacies in the relevant procedural guidelines, codes of practice, etc. ................. 359 (iv) Weaknesses in internal communications and exchanges between the BD and ICU under the delegation arrangement .......................................................................................... 359 (v) The trailing in the use of more advanced technologies to assist work and/or manage risks ............................................................................................................................... 359 R4. EXECUTIVE SUMMARY OF IMPROVEMENTS AND IMMEDIATE STEPS TAKEN BY THE GOVERNMENT AFTER THE FIRE ....................................................................................................... 360 R5. THE GOVERNMENT’S RESPONSE TO MEASURES RECOMMENDED BY THE COMMITTEE’S EXPERTS .......................................................................................................................................... 364 PART IV: TOR 2 ............................................................................................................................. 369 S. OUTLINE OF THE SYSTEMIC ISSUES AS IDENTIFIED FROM THE EVIDENCE 369 S1. BID-RIGGING AND OTHER ANTI-COMPETITIVE / UNLAWFUL CONDUCT – CONSULTANTS / RIS AND CONTRACTORS ......................................................................................................................... 370 S2. BRIBERY – CONSULTANTS / RIS AND CONTRACTORS BRIBING THE RELEVANT STAKEHOLDERS, E.G. THE PMC AND MEMBERS OF THE MC OF THE IO ...................................................................... 373 S3. OTHER MISCONDUCT OR DISHONEST CONDUCT IN THE TENDERING AND QUOTATION PROCESSES ...................................................................................................................................... 373 S4. ABUSE OF THE PROXY SYSTEM ............................................................................................ 374 S5. THE FAILURE OF THE PMCS IN DISCHARGING THEIR DUTIES ............................................... 375 T. THE INVOLVEMENT OF THE GOVERNMENT AND RELATED BODIES . 377 T1. THE URA ............................................................................................................................ 377 T2. THE COMPETITION COMMISSION ........................................................................................ 380 T3. THE ICAC........................................................................................................................... 382

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T4. THE POLICE......................................................................................................................... 384 U. THE ROLES AND RESPONSIBILITIES OF THE HAD ..................................... 387 U1. THE REGULATORY CONTEXT FOR THE HAD’S INVOLVEMENT ............................................. 387 (i) The HAD’s roles and responsibilities in facilitating building management.................. 387 (ii) The HAD’s powers under the Building Management Ordinance (Cap. 344) ................ 388 U2. THE CONDUCT OF THE RELEVANT WFC IO / DISPUTES AND CHALLENGES, AND THE HAD’S INVOLVEMENT AT DIFFERENT STAGES ............................................................................................. 389 (i) The stage of compliance with the MBIS and engagement of Will Power as the consultant providing RI services .................................................................................................... 389 (ii) The stage of renovation design and project procurement, and engagement of Will Power as the consultant for the subsequent renovation works ................................................ 390 (iii) The stage of contractor tendering and selection............................................................ 391 (iv) The stage of contract finalisation and execution ........................................................... 393 (v) The stage of re-election of the MC up to the fire ........................................................... 394 U3. SYSTEMIC AND/OR OPERATIONAL WEAKNESSES ON THE REGULATORY LEVEL .................... 396 V. IMPROVEMENT MEASURES (RELEVANT TO TOR 2) PROPOSED BY THE GOVERNMENT AS A WHOLE ................................................................................................... 404 PART V: ENDING REMARKS ..................................................................................................... 407 W. ENDING REMARKS ................................................................................................. 407

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PART I: INTRODUCTION A. THE WANG FUK COURT (“WFC”) FIRE A1. The WFC Fire 1. On 26 November 2025, a fire broke out at WFC, a Home Ownership Scheme (“HOS”) estate in Tai Po, New Territories, comprising eight high-rise residential blocks built in 1983. 2. At the time of the incident, all eight blocks were undergoing concurrent exterior maintenance and renovation works, and were enveloped in bamboo scaffolding and protective netting that wrapped the towers from the ground to the upper floors. The renovation project, valued at approximately HK$336 million, was entrusted to registered professionals and a registered contractor (“RC”) who bore primary statutory obligations under, inter alia, the Buildings Ordinance (Cap. 123) (“BO”), Fire Services Ordinance (Cap. 95) (“FSO”), Occupational Safety and Health Ordinance (Cap. 509) (“OSHO”), and Factories and Industrial Undertakings Ordinance (Cap. 59) (“FIUO”) to ensure that the works were carried out safely and in compliance with legal and regulatory requirements. They had each failed their responsibilities and the public’s expectations. 3. The fire was first reported to the Fire Services Communications Centre (“FSCC”) at 1451 hours. The caller reported a fire with explosion at scaffolding installed along the external wall of Wang Cheong House. On the evidence presently available to the Committee, the fire originated from the flat roof outside Flats 104 and 105 of Wang Cheong House. CCTV footage and videos taken by members of the public point consistently to that location as the place where the initial fire took hold.

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The fire spread with extraordinary speed. Within approximately 20 minutes of the first fire appliance arriving at the scene, the fire had spread from its point of origin to multiple locations across Wang Cheong House, extending to multiple façades and the open ground surrounding the building, and had reached Wang Tai House. In certain blocks, the fire spread across multiple levels within an extremely short period of time, driven by the chimney-like configuration of the re-entrant, which confined and directed hot air, smoke and combustible gases upward. Wind-carried embers then spread the fire horizontally from building to building. By the conclusion of the incident, 12 instances of rapid vertical fire spread were observed along the re-entrants across 6 buildings.

The fire burned for approximately 43 hours and was declared “surrounded” at 2131 hours on 27 November 2025, “under control” at 0315 hours on 28 November 2025, and largely extinguished at 1018 hours on 28 November 2025. At its peak, the response involved 174 fire engines, 47 ambulances, and 989 FS personnel, the largest deployment in the history of the Fire Services Department (“FSD”). Over the course of the entire 43-hour operation, the cumulative deployment comprised 581 fire appliances, 217 ambulances, and 3,531 FS personnel (including 2,643 firefighters, 224 fire officers, 585 ambulance personnel and 79 ambulance officers).

The scale and severity of the fire was without precedent in Hong Kong’s post- war history. With seven of the eight towers affected, thousands of residents lost their homes or found them uninhabitable due to fire damage, smoke, water and structural risks. The displacement of nearly 5,000 people created rehousing, welfare and support needs that required sustained Government attention. 11

A2. The Government’s immediate response – the three Task Forces 7. The Government responded swiftly and comprehensively to the incident. On 2 December 2025, the Chief Executive announced that three cross-bureau Task Forces had been established to coordinate the relief, investigation and rehousing work. 8. The first was the Task Force on Investigation and Regulation, led by the Chief Secretary for Administration, which was tasked with coordinating the technical and regulatory probes into the fire’s causes, performance of FSIs, and adequacy of construction safety and building maintenance practice. This Task Force brought together relevant bureaux and departments, including the FSD, Hong Kong Police Force (“Police”), Buildings Department (“BD”), Labour Department (“LD”) and other relevant regulators to investigate the fire scene, examine materials and design features, assess compliance with safety legislation, and identify immediate risks at similar construction sites across the territory, and formulate improvement measures to enhance the current regulatory system. The Inter-departmental Fire Investigation Task Force (“IFITF”), whose Final Investigation Report (May 2026) forms a primary evidential foundation for the Committee’s work under ToR 1, was established within this structure. 9. The second was the Task Force on Emergency Support and Fund-Raising, led by the Deputy Chief Secretary for Administration, which focused on immediate financial assistance, social welfare and community support. The Support Fund for WFC in Tai Po was established, seeded with HK$300 million in government capital and supplemented by public and corporate donations. An emergency subsidy of HK$10,000 per affected household was disbursed within days; by 2 December 2025, nearly 1,916 households had received this payment. A “one social worker per household” model was implemented, assigning dedicated case workers to coordinate welfare services, counselling and administrative support.

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An online platform (taipodonation.hk) was established to register and coordinate offers of supplies and donations from the public under the coordination of this Task Force. 10. The third was the Task Force on Emergency Accommodation Arrangements, led by the Deputy Financial Secretary, which addressed the logistical challenge of rehousing thousands of people. By early December 2025, over 1,000 residents had been placed in youth hostels, camps or hotel rooms, while over 1,600 had moved into transitional housing units or flats provided by the Hong Kong Housing Society. Temporary shelters were maintained, and the Government assessed residents’ actual needs and matched donated supplies accordingly. Tens of thousands of items were distributed to affected residents and temporary accommodation facilities. 11. These three Task Forces’ activities represented an immediate comprehensive crisis response combining operational firefighting and investigation, social and financial support, housing solutions, and legal facilitation. At the same time, given the scale and severity of the incident, the Government has gone above and beyond routine administrative follow-up and the Chief Executive took the swift initiative of establishing a mechanism for independent, public scrutiny, i.e. the setting up of the Independent Committee.

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B. ESTABLISHMENT OF THE INDEPENDENT COMMITTEE B1. The Chief Executive’s decision to set up the Independent Committee (“Committee”) 12. On 2 December 2025, while announcing updates on the three Task Forces, the Chief Executive stated that an Independent Committee would be established to examine the causes and related issues of the WFC fire. A formal Government announcement on 12 December 2025 confirmed that the Committee had been set up, with a clear mandate to complete its work within nine months. 13. In particular, the Chief Executive made clear that we are to ensure that justice is done, and to ensure that we will prevent such a tragedy from happening again. The Chief Executive made a call for a thorough investigation and serious reform, and promised to pursue accountability regardless of who he or she is. The primary aim is to uncover the truth, ensure that justice is served, let the deceased rest in peace and provide comfort to the living1. 14. On 19 December 2025, the Committee convened its first meeting and formally commenced its work. The decision to appoint a sitting High Court Judge as Chairman and to identify the body as “independent” was a deliberate measure to ensure impartiality and professionalism (which have unsurprisingly been demonstrated by the Committee in its work hitherto), drawing on Hong Kong’s established tradition of judge-led inquiries in major public safety incidents. 15. The Chief Executive emphasised that the Committee faced a substantial investigative task in examining two broad issues.

1 Remarks by the Chief Executive on matters related to the WFC fire in Tai Po at a media session on 2 December 2025 (https://www.info.gov.hk/gia/general/202512/02/P2025120200489.htm)

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  1. 1. The first related directly to the fire: the causes and circumstances that led

to the blaze, including FSIs and their supervision; the adequacy of construction safety requirements and supervision in building maintenance and renovation works; the comprehensiveness of safety-compliant materials lists; the effectiveness of verification and testing systems; the roles and responsibilities of government officers, authorised professionals, contractors and others; and the liabilities arising from the aforementioned issues. 15.2. The second concerned systemic problems in large-scale building maintenance and renovation, including undue connected interests, conflicts of roles, improper collusion, bid-rigging corruption and irregularities in tendering processes. 16. As to the legal nature of the Committee, the Chief Executive explained that rather than immediately invoking the Commissions of Inquiry Ordinance (Cap. 86), which provides statutory powers of compulsion, he had opted to appoint the Committee under the general executive authority. He stated that a reserve power had been given to the Committee: if, in the course of its work, it considered that exercising powers equivalent to a statutory Commission of Inquiry would help it complete its tasks, the Chief Executive would be “very willing to consider” 2 appointing it as such, following the legal procedures for a Commission of Inquiry under existing ordinances. 17. This formulation placed the Committee in a position whereby it operates as an executive-appointed body, relying primarily on voluntary cooperation and the authority of its composition for evidence gathering, while retaining the explicit potential for transition to a Commission of Inquiry exercising all such statutory

2 Remarks by CE on matters related to the WFC fire in Tai Po at a media session on 12 December 2025 (https://www.info.gov.hk/gia/general/202512/12/P2025121200776.htm)

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powers as are necessary. The adoption of this form of inquiry was aimed at ensuring that the investigative work could proceed in a more flexible and expeditious manner while upholding the principles of openness and transparency. 18. The Government expressly supports this mode of inquiry. The Government immediately pledged its full support, and continues to pledge its full support, to the work of the Committee, in order to fulfil the expectations of the families of the deceased, the residents of WFC and the wider public for a full account of the truth behind this fire. As it turned out, 27 factual witnesses being current or former officers and representatives from different Bureaux and Departments of the Government, gave oral evidence (in addition to numerous written statements/submissions filed over the course of the proceedings). 19. As the Chairman neatly put it, what the Committee is trying to do is to reassess the risks and try to make it as best as it can. The Committee cannot be overly idealistic – there are other considerations to be taken into account and what the Committee is suggesting is that it will set the path forward. Stakeholders’ interests will be debated and what the Committee is trying to do is to try to raise awareness of the whole public about the risks associated with large-scale building maintenance and renovation projects in the future [Day 27/101/2-13]. B2. The Committee’s Terms of Reference (“ToR”) 20. The Committee’s ToR, published on 12 December 2025, define the boundaries of the inquiry and illuminate its purpose. They may be summarised as identifying the Committee’s tasks in four parts. 21. ToR 1 concerns the events of 26 November 2025: what happened at WFC, why the fire occurred, and what factors led to the heavy casualties. This includes an examination of the initial ignition, the role of construction materials and design

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features in the fire’s rapid spread, the functioning and supervision of FSIs, the adequacy of construction safety requirements, standards, supervision and day-to- day maintenance for the building maintenance and renovation works, whether the prevailing list of materials meeting safety standards is comprehensive and whether the related verification and testing systems are effective, the roles and responsibilities of personnel with supervisory roles across all stages (including government officers, authorised professionals, contractors and others), and the liabilities arising from the aforementioned issues. 22. ToR 2 moves from the particular to the general, asking whether there exist wider systemic problems in large-scale building maintenance and renovation works, including undue connected interests, conflicts of roles, or improper collusion across all stages, and whether bid-rigging corruption or irregularities were involved in the tendering process. 23. ToR 3 requires the Committee to examine whether regulation and penalties under relevant existing laws are adequate in respect of both matters above. 24. ToR 4 requires the Committee to make recommendations regarding matters in ToR 1 to 3. 25. The ToR therefore position the Committee as a fact-finding body, with recommendations regarding the relevant matters to be made. A critical feature of the ToR, as addressed further below, is to clearly demarcate the role of the Committee and that of law enforcement agencies and relevant courts/tribunals, with the latter being responsible for addressing any questions and determinations of legal liability (which fall outside the scope of the ToR) [A1/4].

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B3. The involved parties 26. Given the complexity of the fire and breadth of the ToR, the Committee (rightly) adopted a structured approach to participation, identifying a category of “involved parties” which could participate in the evidential hearings, including rights to be legally represented, to call witnesses and/or to make submissions. The Rules of Procedure for the Evidential Hearing set out the mechanisms for parties to apply for participation and the logistical framework for hearings. 27. As at today, a total of 42 involved parties have been permitted by the Committee to participate in the Evidential Hearing. These comprise the following: 27.1. Six Government departments (the Police, FSD, LD, BD, Housing Department (“HD”, specifically the Independent Checking Unit (“ICU”)), and Home Affairs Department (“HAD”)); 27.2. Three statutory or regulatory bodies (the Competition Commission, Independent Commission Against Corruption (“ICAC”) and Urban Renewal Authority (“URA”)); 27.3. Ten residents of WFC (Ms Chow Yim Ling, Mr Lee Kwok Hung, Mr Leung Ho Hin, Ms Lo Hiu Kei, Mr Lo Hiu Kin, Mr Yip Ka Kui Sdanni, Mr Yip Shun Ting, Mr Yip Shun Yin, Mr So Hiu Fung and Ms Chong Sio Pek); 27.4. Fourteen current or former office-holders of the 12th MC of the IO of WFC (Mr Tsui Moon Come Tony as Chairperson, Mr Mak Chi Hung as Vice Chairperson, Mr Ho Chung Hang as Secretary, Ms Cheung Tsz Wan as Treasurer, and ten Members);

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  1. 5. Two property management entities (ISS and Hop On Management

Company Limited (“Hop On”)); 27.6. Victory Fire (an RFSIC); 27.7. Mr Leung Ping Kay (Director of China Status); 27.8. Mr Wong Hap Yin (Director of Will Power); 27.9. Mr Hau Wa Kin and Mr Ho Kin Yip (Directors of Prestige); 27.10. Mr Wong Chung Kee Steve (Authorised Signatory (“AS”) of Prestige); and 27.11. China Taiping Insurance (HK) Company Limited. 28. The inclusion of residents and former Management Committee members among the involved parties has demonstrably allowed them to articulate their concerns, present evidence on the handling of safety complaints and tendering process, and participate in the proceedings of the Committee (with some benefitting from legal assistance and representation). 29. The participation of the Competition Commission and ICAC is a recognition that the systemic dimension under ToR 2 includes potential breaches of competition and anti-corruption laws. Their involvement has evidently enriched the Committee’s evidentiary base on sector-wide practice and vulnerabilities. B4. Legal representation of the involved Government Bureaux / Departments 30. The relevant Government bureaux and departments — namely the Police, FSD, LD, BD, ICU of the HD, and HAD — are represented in these proceedings by (1) the Department of Justice and (2) a team of Counsel comprising Mr Jenkin Suen SC, Mr Calvin Cheuk SC, Mr Michael Lok and Mr Charlie Liu.

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B5. How the involved Government Bureaux / Departments have assisted the Committee’s work, and their overall approach to the inquiry 31. The Government has adopted a proactive approach to cooperate with and support the work of the Committee. Since the Committee was set up, various departments and bureaux have actively responded to letters and requests issued by the Committee’s legal team, whilst simultaneously and proactively taking the initiative of submitting documentary evidence, information as well as witness statements relevant to the ToR to the Committee before relevant requests were made on the Committee’s behalf. As illustration, the Government has, as recently as 29 June 2026, submitted a further witness statement dated 25 June 2026 in relation to the examination of plastic sheeting by Dr Lee Wing-man of the Government Laboratory to provide a fuller picture to the Committee. 32. The scale of cooperation has been substantial. Since the Committee commenced its work in December 2025, the relevant Government departments have submitted a large volume of witness statements and documentary materials within a short period. The Committee has received nearly one million individual documents from Government departments, law enforcement agencies, contractors and members of the public, along with hours of CCTV footage and digital materials. The total volume of data exceeds one terabyte. 33. Government departments have contributed to this evidential base in multiple ways. 33.1. They have provided formal witness statements and made witnesses available for oral evidence, in some cases over several days. Witness statements have been published on the Secretariat’s website subject to necessary redactions.

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  1. 2. In all, during the course of the evidential hearings, 31 witnesses from the

six Government departments represented in these proceedings and the IFITF gave oral evidence across 13 hearing days between 10 April and 25 June 2026. Of these, 19 witnesses were from the FSD and the IFITF, giving evidence over 8 hearing days (Days 10–12, 17–19 and 25–26), spanning every level of the organisation from frontline Senior Station Officers to the Director of Fire Services (“DFS”); 3 were from the LD, giving evidence on 1 hearing day (Day 16); 1 was from the BD, giving evidence on 1 hearing day (Day 20); 3 were from the HAD, giving evidence across 2 hearing days (Days 20 and 24); 3 were from the ICU of the HD, giving evidence across 3 hearing days (Days 22, 23 and 24); and 2 were from the Police, giving evidence on 1 hearing day (Day 12). 33.3. Witnesses have been examined by Counsel for the Committee and by other involved parties’ counsel on specific issues including the division of responsibility for assessing flammable materials, functioning and supervision of fire alarms, enforcement of occupational safety rules, and handling of building maintenance complaints. 33.4. In addition to those witnesses who gave oral evidence, a large number of Government witnesses provided witness statements to the Committee which were admitted into evidence without being called to give oral testimony. 33.5. They have also disclosed internal records relating to the supervision of the WFC maintenance works and their follow-up actions in response to complaints. 34. In tandem with the work of the Committee, the Government departments have begun implementing improvement measures even before the Committee’s final

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report, reflecting a proactive, learning-oriented stance. These measures are addressed in detail below. 35. The Government will continue to cooperate fully with the work of the Committee throughout the course of the hearings and beyond, so as to present an objective and complete picture of the incident to the Committee and the public. C. THE COMMITTEE’S TREATMENT OF EVIDENCE AND MAKING OF FINDINGS C1. The purpose of the inquiry 36. The purpose of the Committee’s inquiry is to investigate the matters set out under the ToR. It includes a fact-finding exercise based on the available evidence, with a view to making recommendations for the prevention of recurrence. 37. It is not an exercise in determining any party’s legal liabilities, civil or criminal. This distinction (from the role of law enforcement agencies and relevant courts/tribunals) is fundamental to the proper understanding of both the Government’s submissions and the Committee’s findings. Specifically, the Government takes the position that neither (1) the Government’s submissions in these proceedings nor (2) the Committee’s findings, assessments and conclusions should be understood to imply guilt or any civil, criminal or other legal liabilities on the part of any person or body. The issues relevant to legal liabilities are properly left for the relevant bodies to determine in other appropriate fora. 38. The Committee has itself recognised this distinction. The Note to the ToR expressly exclude determinations of legal liability from the scope of the inquiry [A1/4]. By way of illustration, Counsel for the Committee has explained that ongoing criminal investigations proceed in parallel, that if a prosecution is brought the determination of guilt will be a matter for the courts, and that the

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Committee’s role is to provide clarity and accountability rather than to substitute for judicial processes. 39. This separation ensures that the Government will have the benefit of the Committee’s findings and recommendations in considering further improvement measures without awaiting the conclusion of what may be protracted legal proceedings. C2. The handling of evidence received by the Committee 40. The Committee has received evidence in multiple forms: witness statements from government officers, contractors, consultants, property management staff, FSI contractors, residents and others; documentary exhibits including contracts, correspondence, photographs, meeting minutes, statutory submissions, circulars, codes of practice and legislation; CCTV footage from the day of the fire; digital communications records; expert reports; and the Final Investigation Report of the Inter-departmental Fire Investigation Task Force (May 2026). 41. The Committee conducted public evidential hearings over 27 hearing days (between 19 March and 25 June 2026), during which 73 factual witnesses and 7 expert / IFITF witnesses gave evidence and were examined on their respective areas. Witnesses were examined by Counsel for the Committee, Counsel for the involved parties, and by the Chairman and Members of the Committee. 42. The Government takes note of the Committee’s decision, announced by the Chairman on 22 June 2026, not to recommend to the Chief Executive that the Committee be converted into a statutory Commission of Inquiry under the Commissions of Inquiry Ordinance (Cap. 86). As the Chairman explained, the Committee reached this decision after careful consideration of five factors: (i) the Committee had already obtained sufficiently comprehensive information to

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identify what happened and why, and was confident it could analyse and draw conclusions on all matters within the ToR; (ii) conversion to a statutory inquiry would inevitably prolong the proceedings due to the procedural complexity inherent in statutory inquiries, at a time when the public interest demanded timely completion (with the UK’s Grenfell Tower Inquiry as a counter-example); (iii) conversion might affect or at least delay ongoing or subsequent criminal and civil proceedings, and could complicate the work of the law enforcement agencies; (iv) the current modus operandi afforded greater flexibility and openness in the conduct of the inquiry; and (v) investigations into bid-rigging or irregularities at WFC specifically were more appropriately pursued by the law enforcement agencies, which had already laid charges and had not ruled out further enforcement action. The Government respectfully supports the Committee’s approach which we believe cast a proper and appropriate balance between the need for completeness in the evidence and other relevant considerations such as timing. The Government particularly echoes the Committee’s position that this decision does not diminish the Committee’s ability to make factual findings and draw appropriate inferences from the evidence before it. After all, as has been made clear from the outset and emphasised throughout, it was and remains a matter for the Committee to determine what, if any, additional powers it may require in order to complete its work. 43. In particular, the absence of certain involved parties and/or their failure to give evidence before the Committee does not preclude the Committee from drawing (adverse) inferences from that absence or failure, and/or from making (adverse) factual findings based on the totality of the evidence available. Ultimately, and by way of illustration, whether any adverse inference is to be drawn “is or ought to be just a matter of ordinary rationality. So far as possible, tribunals should be free to draw, or decline to draw, inferences from the facts of the case before them using their common sense without the need to consult law books when doing so.

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Whether any positive significance should be attached to the fact that a person has not given evidence depends entirely on the context and particular circumstances”: ANZ Commodity Trading Pty Ltd v Excellence Raise Overseas Ltd [2025] HKCA 701 at §121 per Kwan VP; citing Efobi v Royal Mail Group Ltd [2021] 1 WLR 3863 at §41 per Lord Leggatt JSC. Echoing the above, as observed by the Chairman when explaining the Committee’s decision (per paragraph 42 above) on 22 June 2026: “On the other hand, even if the stakeholders have given up the opportunity to testify in front of the public, the Committee can still make an adverse finding against them with the information we have already had. In other words, even though witnesses refused or choose not to attend the hearing to give testimony, this will not affect our ruling in terms of roles and accountability” [Day 25/9/13-20]. 44. The Government submits that in the present case, where a party with knowledge of relevant facts has chosen not to give evidence (and a fortiori where they have declined an invitation by the Committee to do so), and the available evidence from other sources permits a finding of fact on the balance of probabilities, the Committee is fully entitled to make that finding insofar as is necessary. In any case, the Committee should be entitled to consider the totality of evidence (or its absence) before it to draw its conclusions using its common sense as appropriate. 45. The admissibility of and weight to be given to uncontested evidence, the inferences to be drawn from silence, and the assessment of credibility where accounts conflict are all matters for the Committee’s judgement, exercised in light of the circumstances of the case and gravity of the findings concerned. C3. Burden/Standard of Proof 46. The Committee is not constituted as a formal Commission of Inquiry under the Commissions of Inquiry Ordinance (Cap. 86). Nevertheless, its fact-finding

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function is materially akin to that of a statutory commission. The Government respectfully invites the Committee to consider and, where appropriate, apply the principles developed in the context of commissions of inquiry and analogous inquisitorial proceedings in Hong Kong, as summarised below. 47. As the Commission of Inquiry into the Construction Works at and near the Hung Hom Station Extension under the Shatin to Central Link Project stated in its Final Report at §115, while “parties before a commission of inquiry may not be required to discharge any formal burden of proof, a commission must come to its determinations according to the measure of objective standards.” This approach is consistent with the Court of Appeal’s decision in Securities and Futures Commission v Cheng Chak Ngok [2018] 4 HKLRD 612, in which Cheung JA held at §9.9 that “the orthodox approach that in an inquisitorial inquiry by a tribunal there is no place for the requirement of burden of proof is the guiding principle,” reasoning that “[i]f there are no adversaries as such then it is meaningless to talk about a party carrying a burden.” An analogous approach was taken in Riady, Tjondro Stephen v Insider Dealing Tribunal (unrep., CACV 310/2002, 9 January 2003), where Ma JA (as he then was) held that an Insider Dealing Tribunal “does not have parties before it in the sense of a prosecution and accused or a plaintiff and defendant. Its function is not to adjudicate between rival claims or positions but to inquire into the question of insider dealing. The proceedings are not accusatorial but inquisitorial. There is no lis as such.” 48. The Government respectfully submits that the Committee can adopt a similar approach. No party before the Committee carries a formal burden of proof. The Committee’s task is to inquire into the matters set out in the ToR, to receive and evaluate the evidence placed before it, and to make findings according to objective standards.

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As to the standard of proof, i.e. how the Committee may be satisfied that a finding of fact is sufficiently supported by the evidence (noting that there is no party which carries a formal burden of proof so that this is an exercise for the Committee with reference to the available evidence), the Committee may wish to note that the Commissions of Inquiry Ordinance (Cap. 86), whilst providing that a commission of inquiry is a “judicial proceeding” (s. 11(1)), makes no mention of the standard of proof to be applied.

Against such background, public inquiries have consistently reserved to themselves the flexibility to determine what standard of proof they require in order to make their findings. The standard of proof applicable to the Committee’s findings of fact is, in general, the civil standard: the balance of probabilities. A fact is established if the Committee is satisfied that it is more probable than not. This civil standard has been consistently adopted in Hong Kong public inquiries: the Report of the Commission of Inquiry on Allegations relating to The Hong Kong Institute of Education (2007) at §2.18; the Report of the Commission of Inquiry into the Collision of Vessels near Lamma Island on 1 October 2012 (2013) at §32; and the Final Report of the Commission of Inquiry into the Construction Works at and near the Hung Hom Station Extension under the Shatin to Central Link Project (2020) at §116.

The standard is not, however, applied mechanically. It calls for a degree of satisfaction which varies according to the gravity of the facts to be established. As the Court of Final Appeal explained in HKSAR v Lee Ming Tee (2003) 6 HKCFAR 336 at 361-362 per Sir Anthony Mason NPJ, and as Lord Nicholls held for the majority in Re H [1996] AC 563 at 586D-F: “The balance of probability standard means that a court is satisfied an event occurred if the court considers that, on the evidence, the occurrence of the event was more likely than not. When assessing the probabilities the court will have in 27

mind as a factor, to whatever extent is appropriate in the particular case, that the more serious the allegation the less likely it is the event occurred and, hence, the stronger should be the evidence before the court concludes that the allegation is established on the balance of probability. Fraud is usually less likely than negligence. Deliberate physical injury is usually less likely than accidental physical injury…… Built into the preponderance of probability standard is a generous degree of flexibility in respect of the seriousness of the allegation.” 52. Public inquiries may also, in appropriate circumstances, call for a higher standard for specific issues of particular gravity. “It has been observed that public inquiries ‘have consistently reserved to themselves the flexibility to determine what standard of proof they require in order to make their findings’, and the lack of any stipulation or guidance in the Ordinance tends to support the pragmatic principle of flexibility”: Commissions of Inquiry in Hong Kong at §7-24. 53. By way of illustration, in the Hung Hom Station Extension Commission of Inquiry, the Commission chose to adopt the civil standard of proof in general, save for the primary issue of structural safety. On that issue, the Commission adopted a standard akin to the criminal standard, stating at §117 as follows: “The Commission recognises that it would not be in the public interest - indeed it would manifestly be contrary to public interest - if it was to go no further than to determine that the structural works which are the subject of this expanded inquiry are more likely than not to be safe or unsafe. What (by clear inference) the Terms of Reference require, and what the public seeks, is an unequivocal assurance of safety or a clear statement of concern as to lack of safety. Accordingly, whatever language may conveniently be used in context, any and all findings as to structural safety will be made on the basis that, having given anxious consideration to all relevant evidence, the Commission is satisfied so that it is sure of such findings.” 54. In the present case, it is submitted that where the findings to be made involve attribution of responsibility or criticisms of the conduct of specific entities or stakeholders (whether in the construction industry, in property management, or

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in the supervisory regime, etc.), the Committee may consider whether it is satisfied, on the balance of probabilities, that such findings are supported by evidence commensurate with their gravity. A major distinction between the present case and the Hung Hom Station Extension Commission of Inquiry is that the latter adopted a standard akin to the criminal standard precisely because its Terms of Reference required it to address “concerns about public safety” (§29), a category of finding for which it may well be contrary to the public interest to go no further than to determine that the structural works were more likely than not to be safe or unsafe. 55. Conversely, where a finding concerns a systemic or structural deficiency (such as inadequacies or insufficiencies in industry standards, professional self-regulation, statutory control, regulatory and supervisory framework, contingency measures or resource allocation), it does not necessarily involve attribution of responsibility in the same sense and might not require the same degree of circumspection. The Government accepts that where the evidence demonstrates systemic weaknesses, the Committee should not hesitate to say so clearly. C4. “Causation” in the legal context 56. The ToR require the Committee to examine “the causes and circumstances that led to the fire” and the factors that led to the heavy casualties. This necessarily involves questions of causation: whether, and to what extent, particular acts, omissions or conditions contributed to the outbreak of the fire, its rapid spread, or the severity of casualties. 57. The Government recognises that the Committee’s inquiry is not litigation, and that questions of causation do not arise in the Committee’s proceedings in the same manner as they do in a civil action or a criminal prosecution. The Committee

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is not required to determine legal liability or to apportion fault in the technical legal sense. 58. Nevertheless, certain principles developed in the law of causation may, by analogy, provide a useful framework for the Committee’s analysis — particularly where the evidence discloses multiple contributing factors and the Committee is called upon to assess the relative significance of each of them. 59. In Stapley v Gypsum Mines Ltd [1953] AC 663, Lord Asquith of Bishopstone observed at 687 that “Courts of law must accept the fact that the philosophic doctrine of causation and the juridical doctrine of responsibility for the consequences of a negligent act diverge. To a philosopher… the whole legal doctrine of responsibility must seem anomalous. To him, if event C could not occur unless each of two previous events — A and B — had preceded it, it would be unmeaning to say that A was more responsible for the occurrence of C than was B, or that B was more responsible for its occurrence than was A. The whole modern doctrine of contributory negligence, however, proceeds on the contrary assumption… But the fission between law and strict logic goes deeper than that. For I am persuaded that it is still part of the law of this country that two causes may both be necessary pre-conditions of a particular result — damage to X — yet the one may, if the facts justify that conclusion, be treated as the real, substantial, direct or effective cause, and the other dismissed as at best a causa sine qua non and ignored for purposes of legal liability.” 60. Lord Reid expressed similar sentiments at 681: “To determine what caused an accident from the point of view of legal liability is a most difficult task. If there is any valid logical scientific theory of causation, it is quite irrelevant in this connection… The question must be determined by applying common sense to the facts of each particular case. One may find that as a matter of history several

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people have been at fault and that if any one of them had acted properly the accident would not have happened, but that does not mean that the accident must be regarded as having been caused by the faults of all of them. One must discriminate between those faults which must be discarded as being too remote and those which must not. Sometimes it is proper to discard all but one and to regard that one as the sole cause, but in other cases it is proper to regard two or more as having jointly caused the accident. I doubt whether any test can be applied generally.” 61. These passages were cited with approval by our Court of Appeal in Cheng Kin Ping v Woo Cho Wing John (unrep., CACV 252/1999, 26 January 2000) at 9-

  1. The Court further noted that no definitive test has been formulated to enable

questions of causation to be answered universally: the “but for” test might not be universally applicable, and it all depends on the facts of each case. 62. After all, the Government is confident that the Committee (chaired by a highly experienced High Court Judge) is well placed, having heard extensive evidence over many hearing days, to apply common sense to the facts and to discriminate between those factors which were the real, substantial and effective causes of the fire, its spread and the casualties, and those which (while they may have been background conditions or which, if remedied, might have reduced the probability or severity of the fire) were not causally decisive in the same way.

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D. OVERVIEW OF THE GOVERNMENT’S CASE 63. The evidence before the Committee paints a coherent and clear picture. A renovation project valued at approximately HK$336 million, affecting eight residential towers housing nearly 5,000 people, was entrusted to professionals and contractors who bore primary statutory and contractual obligations to ensure the safety and quality of the works. 64. It is now clear that those professionals and contractors have failed their duties and have abused the system through a combination of deliberate cheating, conspiracy, collaboration, neglect, contraventions and non-compliance that directly caused the fire, its rapid spread, and the death of 168 people. 65. The Government’s overall case may be summarised in the following terms. 66. The regulatory framework for building maintenance and renovation in Hong Kong has long been founded on a model of professional self-regulation, underpinned by statutory obligations, registration requirements, and supervisory mechanisms. This was based on the trust and confidence that the Government had reposed in the professionals in the construction industry. 67. This model was not developed in a vacuum; it has developed and modified over all the six terms of HKSAR Government. Over the years, there have been consistent calls from the industry, the legislature and indeed the public for the Government to streamline regulatory framework and procedures so as to reduce costs and delays for building owners, particularly in the context of building maintenance and minor works. 67.1. As informed to the Legislative Council during the development of the MWCS (first proposed in 2007 and fully implemented on 31 December

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2010), prior to its implementation the building control system under the BO applied to all building works regardless of their scale and complexity, requiring approval of building plans and consent to commence building works from the BA before commencement; and “the costs and time involved in complying with these requirements were often disproportionate to the scale of the works” with the result that “many minor building works were carried out without complying with BO, and therefore became unauthorized building works” (LC Paper No. CB(1)1116/11-12(08)3, §2). 67.2. The MWCS was introduced in 2010 precisely to “facilitate members of the public to carry out minor works in private buildings lawfully through simplified procedures and thereby improving building safety in Hong Kong” (LC Paper No. CB(1)1116/11-12(08), §3). 67.3. Similarly, the MBIS (first announced in 2007, enacted in 2011 and brought into full operation on 30 June 2012) was introduced following extensive Legislative Council scrutiny with the objective of ensuring that building owners would “undertake the responsibility for keeping their buildings in good conditions, including shouldering the financial commitment”, given that “[b]uilding neglect has been a long-standing problem in Hong Kong. The presence of aging buildings lacking proper care and maintenance poses potential threats to residents and the public at large” (LC Paper No. CB(1)343/13-14(04) 4 , §2), with the system relying on registered professionals to carry out and supervise the prescribed inspection and repair works. 67.4. The degree of reliance on professional self-regulation in both schemes was thus a considered policy decision, developed against a background of

3 https://www.legco.gov.hk/yr11-12/english/panels/dev/papers/dev0228cb1-1116-8-e.pdf 4 https://www.legco.gov.hk/yr13-14/english/panels/dev/papers/dev1126cb1-343-4-e.pdf

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sustained demand for a more efficient and business-facilitating regulatory environment, and endorsed by the legislature on the (not unreasonable) understanding and expectation that professionals would ordinarily and as a matter of principle honour and discharge their statutory obligations and that audit checks and disciplinary mechanisms would serve as sufficient safeguards against aberrations (and it was hardly envisioned that such professionals would, whether on their own or in collusion with one another, deliberately circumvent the system and the relevant authorities by active deception and manipulation). The bottom line is that these professionals who (i) should have requisite expertise and integrity, (ii) are bound by professional ethics or code of conduct, and (iii) would otherwise have their qualifications and reputation at stake, can be reasonably expected and relied upon to comply with the relevant legal and regulatory requirements. 68. Thus, this model entrusts and places the primary responsibility for the safety and quality of works squarely upon the registered professionals, contractors and other private actors engaged by building owners to plan, carry out and supervise such works. 69. The Government, in turn, sets standards, maintains registers, conducts audit checks and inspections, responds to and follows up on enquiries and complaints, liaises with the relevant parties and enforces where non-compliance is detected. 70. The model is premised on the integrity, competence and good faith of the professionals upon whom it confers responsibilities. 71. At WFC, that premise was systematically violated. 71.1. The main contractor, Prestige, chose not to appear in the Committee’s hearings. However, it is now clear that (among others):

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(1) It deliberately supplied and used, and directed the purchase and use, of scaffolding nets uncertified for FR properties to achieve greater profit margins and went as far as selectively replacing scaffolding nets uncertified for FR properties with compliant ones before inspections and furnishing a test certificate (which is at least suspected to have been fabricated) to frustrate governmental oversight and conceal the ongoing non-compliance. (2) It used combustible foam boards extensively and for a prolonged period to cover windows across the estate, in direct breach of its own express representation to the relevant Government officer to (i) use non-combustible foam boards (ii) for localised use (every 3 floors in turn) and (iii) for a transient period only. (3) It both created and directed the creation of access openings at escape staircases at regular five-floor intervals across all eight blocks at WFC, compromising the protected means of escape. (4) It (i) directed a non-RFSIC to drain the FS Water Tanks without supervision of an RFSIC which led to the shutdown of the main power switch controlling both the FH/HR System and FAS in all eight blocks, depriving residents of the fire warning they needed to evacuate; (ii) engaged non-RFSICs to undertake renovation works on rooftop FS Water Tanks which are integral components of the FH/HR System without supervision of an RFSIC (let alone the same RFSIC who signed the relevant Shutdown Notices (“SDNs”) and FS 251 forms (“FS251”) submitted to the FSD); and (iii) engaged an RFSIC on paper to undertake administrative works (submissions of SDNs and FS251 to the FSD) as a rubber stamp to create a false

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image of engagement of an RFSIC for the aforesaid repair works on the rooftop FS Water Tanks and to mislead and conceal the true picture from the FSD. (5) It failed to enforce an effective no-smoking regime on site despite repeated complaints from residents, despite its own in-house rules recognising the problem, and despite warnings from the LD. (6) And it failed to ensure frequent clearance of combustible construction debris from the point where the fire originated. 71.2. Will Power and its purported staff Ng Yeuk, respectively appointed as the consultant and Registered Inspector (“RI”) with primary statutory responsibility for supervising the works and ensuring compliance with the BO, similarly did not appear in the Committee’s hearings. The evidence demonstrates that Will Power and the RI have wholly neglected their duties and failed to discharge their supervisory obligations in any meaningful sense. The evidence before the Committee discloses no real or effective supervision by Will Power and the RI over any of the five contributing factors: the non-FR certified scaffolding nets, the extensive foam board use, the access openings at escape staircases, the site management failings that permitted smoking and debris accumulation, or the shutdown of FSIs. 71.3. China Status, the RFSIC engaged by Prestige to submit SDNs and FS251 to the FSD for the shutdown of the FH/HR System, admitted in oral evidence that it never visited the site, never independently assessed the need and consequences for shutdown of the relevant FSI systems, nor effected the shutdown of those FSI systems themselves, and functioned only as a “rubberstamp”. It submitted SDNs and thereby falsely represented to the FSD that it was the RFSIC carrying out the relevant

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repair works and that the shutdown of the relevant FSI systems was due to repairs needed as a result of “leakage of F.S water tank” (without mentioning “empty tanks”, let alone the plan to use the FS Water Tanks for other purposes). The SDNs were further submitted with only the FH/HR System box ticked (indicating that this was the only FSI being shut down while the FAS was and remained simultaneously inoperative), thereby misleading and concealing from the FSD albeit unknowingly the full extent of the condition / status of the FSI thereat. 71.4. Victory Fire, the long-standing RFSIC responsible for annual inspections, discovered in October and November 2025 during their repair works on the FH/HR System and FAS at WFC that WFC’s FS Water Tanks had been drained and the main power switches had been switched off, which would shut down the FAS. Yet, notwithstanding its knowledge that WFC’s FAS was shut down for a period of time (possibly well over a month, as accepted by Chung Kit-man of Victory Fire: [Day 6/89/3-6] and [Day 6/55/2-4 (Chinese transcript)]), and despite its admission that it considered such shutdown abnormal or unusual and needed to turn the main power switches back on to test their own repair works, Victory Fire made no attempt to notify the FSD of the FAS shutdown (let alone the empty FS Water Tanks which would jeopardise the fire safety of the whole building); nor did it ever contact and follow up with China Status, the RFSIC supposedly responsible for the FAS shutdown. 71.5. ISS, the licensed PMC, issued job orders directing its own unlicensed electrician to operate FSIs, failed to coordinate between two simultaneously engaged RFSICs, and confined its response to persistent fire safety complaints to the role of a passive intermediary.

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Following the fire, the Police and ICAC swiftly set up the largest joint investigation task force in recent years to conduct comprehensive investigations5. On 10 June 2026, the Police and ICAC laid charges against seven individuals (including the directors of Prestige and Will Power, and the RI Ng Yeuk) and two companies (Prestige and Will Power) with a total of 25 counts of offences, including manslaughter, conspiracy to defraud, dealing with property known or believed to represent proceeds of an indictable offence, attempting to pervert the course of public justice and tax evasion, in relation to the WFC fire and the renovation project. The Government notes that the relevant investigations are continuing and further law enforcement actions have not been ruled out. While the determination of guilt is a matter for the courts in due course, the laying of these charges confirms that there is at least a prima facie case of serious criminal wrongdoings on the part of the key private actors identified in these submissions.

Two features of this pattern of abuse warrant emphasis.

The first is the scale of the financial incentives involved. The WFC renovation contract was valued at approximately HK$336 million. Against rewards of this magnitude, the existing deterrents were insufficient. The maximum penalties for contravention of safety legislation, the disciplinary sanctions available under the BO, and the prospect of prosecution under occupational health and safety legislation may be modest in comparison with the profit that could be extracted from a project of this scale by cutting corners on materials, fabricating certificates, and circumventing safety requirements. When the potential gain from abuse vastly exceeds the cost of compliance and risk of sanction, the economic incentive for unscrupulous actors is to abuse the system rather than to comply with it (even at the expense of health and safety). 5 See Press Release from the Police dated 10 June 2026: https://www.police.gov.hk/ppp_en/03_police_message/pr/press- release-detail.html?refno=P202606100004

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The second is the collaborative nature of the abuse. The safeguards built into the regulatory framework depend for their efficacy on the integrity of the professionals to whom responsibilities are allocated and who are expected to regulate and supervise each other. Instead, they chose to collude with each other. When the RI who is supposed to supervise the works becomes a collaborator rather than a check on the contractor; when the RFSIC who is supposed to certify FSIs becomes a paid conduit for false notifications; when the PMC who is supposed to monitor fire safety becomes a passive issuer of job orders without enquiring whether the work requires specialist authorisation, the entire system of mutual checks ceases to function, and the regulatory framework can be significantly weakened in its function of protecting the public it was established to serve.

As with any system, the Government does not suggest that the existing regulatory and supervisory framework was without weaknesses and room for improvements. However, if the relevant parties colluded to circumvent the system with a clear and deliberate intention to bypass it, it would be difficult if not impossible for such system to have all systemic loopholes plugged whilst maintaining workable efficiency and appropriate checks and balances.

As the analysis in the sections that follow demonstrates, in light of such widespread and deceptive acts of circumvention, there can now be identified a number of areas susceptible to abuse in, for example, over-reliance on the self- regulation of professionals whose compliance was assumed rather than verified, the limited scope and frequency of audit checks and site inspections; inadequacies in prescriptive standards for certain construction materials; areas requiring improvements in inter-departmental communication; and a supervisory architecture that was not designed to address collaborative and coordinated concealment. The Government acknowledges these systemic weaknesses 39

candidly, and responded swiftly in reviewing the measures and practice in a number of crucial areas and took the initiative to introduce timely and comprehensive improvement measures. 78. The Government’s case is, however, that these areas for improvements (in and of themselves) should not be equated or identified as primary causes of the fire, its spread, or the casualties. The Government also acknowledges, as the Committee’s independent experts observed, that “strong firefighting performance and fast response from the FSD cannot fully compensate for weaknesses in building design, maintenance, management or user behaviour” (IC Expert Report §8.4.7(a) [ER3/2262]; [ER6/2740]). 79. The evidence of the Committee’s experts, and the exchanges between the Chairman and those experts during the evidential hearing, brought into focus a further observation. The Chairman stated directly: “regulation by itself is not the end... Even if they pass regulations, it may still cause --” [Day 27/73/14-17].6 In the same vein, the Committee’s experts agreed and explained: “since every building project is different and may have features that may throw up unforeseen challenges to occupant safety, a certain level of rigour and engineering judgement should be mandated through the approval process, whether it is for new projects or for building repair, rehabilitation or renovation projects” (IC Expert Report §7.5.2 [ER3/2256]). 80. The Government accepts these observations, which highlight the importance of risk assessment. A compliance-driven approach to fire safety, even where the regulations are themselves sound, cannot always account for the unique combination of risks presented by each individual project. The approach must be proportionate and practicable; as the Chairman observed, “we cannot make it

6 References to the oral evidence in these submissions are in the form [Day X/Y/Z], denoting the Day of the Evidential Hearing / page number / line number of the English transcript, unless otherwise stated.

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[foolproof] and use all costs, but we really have to look at the risk and assess the risks from a different angle” [Day 27/76/17-20]. 81. The primary causes remained the deceit, inaction and deliberate omissions of private actors who abused their positions of trust, statutory responsibility and public confidence. Whilst (with the benefit of hindsight) the system may have placed over-reliance on the self-regulation of professionals, no matter how well it may have been designed, it has to count on the people involved to run it; therefore it is not unreasonable (indeed it is necessary) for the Government and for any regulatory system to be founded upon the premise that those subject to it will comply with the relevant laws and regulations that govern their conduct. 82. In these submissions, the Government addresses each contributing factor and the primary responsibilities of the private actors, and discusses the need for improvement measures to enhance the Government’s supervisory role, in that order and with that emphasis in mind. 83. The Government then turns to the systemic issues that cut across the contributing factors, and the improvement measures already introduced. 84. Throughout, the Government maintains the distinction between direct causes (the five contributing factors) and other systemic weaknesses and areas for improvements, and between the facilitative role of the Government in certain areas and its supervisory role in others. The nature of the issues that can properly be attributed to the Government differs according to which role it was exercising in the respective areas. 85. The Government’s submission concludes with an account of the improvement measures that have been implemented since the fire and those currently underway. These measures are directed not merely at incremental enhancement of the pre-

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fire regime but at significant changes to the supervisory architecture for large- scale renovation works, designed to ensure that the system can no longer be undermined by the kind of organised, collaborative and deliberate abuse that occurred at WFC. 86. The Government respectfully invites the Committee to note that a number of the improvement measures which were mentioned during the evidential hearings as proposals or matters under consideration have, by the time of the submission of the Government’s Table of Improvement Measures on 15 June 2026, already been implemented; the Committee is invited to consider the progress in that regard as set out in the Table. 87. On top of the current improvement measures already undertaken by the Government (as set out in the Government’s Table of Improvement Measures), the Government will continue to review and act robustly on further improvement measures to address the problems including those to be identified by the Committee in due course.

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PART II: BACKGROUND TO WFC AND THE WFC FIRE E. WFC E1. WFC and the surrounding area 88. WFC is a HOS estate in Tai Po, New Territories, Hong Kong, completed in 1983 and comprising eight high-rise residential blocks. Each block is identified by both a letter designation and a Chinese name: Wang Yan House (Block A), Wang Tao House (Block B), Wang Sun House (Block C), Wang Kin House (Block D), Wang Tai House (Block E), Wang Cheong House (Block F), Wang Shing House (Block G) and Wang Chi House (Block H). 89. WFC is situated near the Tolo Highway in Tai Po, New Territories. To the north lies Kwong Fuk Estate, a public rental housing development, and Tai Po Baptist Public School, which is located within or immediately adjacent to the WFC estate grounds. The school served as the on-site command post during the firefighting operation. To the south, the estate connects to Tai Po Road and the Tolo Highway. The estate is bounded by Island House Lane to the east and Kwong Wang Street to the west. The proximity of the eight residential blocks to one another within the estate compound is relevant to the mechanisms of inter-building fire spread addressed in Section G below; the analysis of wind-carried embers and falling debris as vectors of horizontal spread was directly influenced by the spatial configuration of the estate. 90. Each block has thirty-one floors, with each floor divided into eight residential units (numbered 1 to 8) connected by a corridor, with the lift lobby located at the centre of the corridor. The estate comprises a total of approximately 1,984 flats. 91. According to the 2021 census data, there were some 4,600 residents in WFC, of whom more than one-third (approximately 1,700) were aged 65 or above, and

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approximately 420 residents were aged below 14. This demographic profile is significant: the high proportion of elderly residents materially affected the speed at which residents could respond to the fire and evacuate, a factor reflected in the casualty data which records that 114 of the 168 fatalities were individuals aged 65 or older (IFITF Report §9.3.1.2 [ER1/195]). 92. Opposite the lift lobby on each floor, there are two interlocking staircases (commonly known as ‘scissor stairs’) serving as means of escape in case of fire. Both staircases run from the thirty-first floor at the top down to the ground floor, but only one of them provides access to the rooftop. This design feature is directly relevant to the evacuation difficulties experienced during the fire, as addressed in Section M of these submissions. 93. A critical design feature of each block is the vertical re-entrant between the two wings, extending from the 1st floor to the roof. The IFITF found that this chimney- like configuration “naturally channelled rising smoke and hot gases” and “confined and directed their upward movement, allowing the fire to spread rapidly and engulf multiple floors in a short timeframe” (IFITF Report §6.2.1.6 [ER1/80]). There are four re-entrants surrounding each block, located between the building façades, with a flat roof on the first floor closed off via a metal gate. The fire originated from the flat roof at the bottom of the re-entrant outside Flats 104 and 105 of Wang Cheong House, as addressed in Section G below. 94. At the time of the incident, all eight blocks were undergoing concurrent exterior maintenance and renovation works, and were enveloped in bamboo scaffolding and protective netting that wrapped the towers from the ground to the upper floors. The renovation works had commenced in July 2024 with a final contract price of HK$336 million.

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The social context of the estate is relevant to the Committee’s assessment of the incident’s impact: WFC housed a long-standing community, and the displacement of nearly 5,000 people created complex rehousing, welfare and support needs that required sustained government attention. E2. Management of the WFC affairs at the material time (i) The PMC

ISS was the PMC responsible for the day-to-day management and administration of WFC at the material time. ISS is a subsidiary of the Denmark-based ISS group and held a licence under the Property Management Services Ordinance (Cap. 626).

The evidence before the Committee demonstrates that ISS occupied a central position in the management of the estate, with contractual responsibilities that placed it at the intersection between the residents, IO, and various contractors engaged for the renovation works.

ISS’s contractual obligations under the Property Management Agreement [H1- 1/1-24] included responsibilities that are directly relevant to the fire safety failures addressed in Sections I to N of these submissions. Cheng Tsz-ying of ISS confirmed in oral evidence that “in relation to fire risk complaints it seems ISS has a contractual obligation to record, investigate and liaise and follow up on the matter with the relevant government department” [Day 8/34/10-16]. The ISS Security Manual treated the identification of potential fire risks as a core purpose of security patrol [H1-3/6639]. These obligations placed ISS in a position where it bore responsibility for monitoring the fire safety environment of the estate, including during the renovation period when the fire risk was materially elevated. 45

The Property Management Services Authority (“PMSA”) Code of Conduct also specifically requires licensed PMCs to monitor the progress of the RFSIC’s work, follow up timely with the RFSIC on required rectifications, follow up timely with the RFSIC that it has notified the DFS of FSI shutdowns, and assist FSD officers during visits [B2/2631].

energisation of the FSIs at WFC. As addressed in detail in Section N of these submissions, Law Kwok-shui, an electrician employed by ISS, physically switched off the main power switches in the booster pump rooms of all eight blocks, simultaneously deactivating both the FH/HR System and FAS, on the instruction of Prestige to drain the FS Water Tanks without supervision of an RFSIC and pursuant to job orders issued by ISS management. The evidence establishes that ISS issued these job orders for work that required RFSIC engagement without ensuring that engagement was so made; this arrangement was “against the law” [Day 10/18/24 – 19/2].

contributed to the conditions in which the fire occurred: issuing job orders directing non-RFSIC staff to operate FSI; failing to coordinate between the two simultaneously engaged RFSICs; failing to ensure that FSIs were maintained in efficient working order; and confining its response to resident complaints about smoking and fire safety hazards to the role of a passive intermediary rather than an active safety monitor. The primary responsibility for the fire safety failures addressed in the contributing-factor sections of these submissions lies with the private actors identified in those sections; ISS’s failures compounded and facilitated those primary failures. 46

(ii) The IO and MC

  1. The IO of WFC was the legal entity responsible for the collective management

and maintenance of the estate’s common areas and facilities, operating under the framework established by the Building Management Ordinance (Cap. 344) (“BMO”) [G1-1/1-250].

  1. Under the BMO, the IO possesses powers including the power to engage and

remunerate staff, accountants, managers or other professionals; improve and maintain common areas; carry out renovation, improvement or decoration works on common parts; and act on behalf of the owners in matters of common interest. Individual owners have rights to monitor the work of the IO and its MC, including the right to inspect financial statements and to require the MC chairman to convene an OC general meeting for specified purposes at the request of not less than 5% of the owners.

  1. What emerges from the evidence is that the residents of WFC were not passive

in the face of the concerns many of which would later prove to have been well- founded. Residents questioned the appointment of Prestige, sought to exercise their statutory rights to convene meetings, raised concerns about proxy irregularities, challenged the adequacy of safety measures during the renovation, and raised numerous enquiries and complaints.

  1. Relatedly, the responses they received from the various government departments

and the extent to which those complaints were substantively addressed are matters examined in the systemic sections of these submissions.

  1. The critical point for the present background section is that the IO and MC

structure at WFC, while functioning within the BMO framework and having the professional assistance from a PMC, was confronted with a renovation project of

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exceptional scale and complexity that strained the capacity of lay MC members to exercise effective oversight, particularly in circumstances where, as the evidence has revealed, the consultant and contractor engaged to carry out the works failed to discharge their professional and statutory obligations.

  1. The key events are addressed in detail in Part IV (ToR 2) below.

E3. Introduction to the FSI system at WFC

  1. This section provides the descriptive foundation for understanding the FSIs at

WFC, how they were designed to operate, who was engaged to maintain them, and the state of the annual inspection regime immediately preceding the fire. It establishes the technical baseline against which the responsibilities and failures addressed in Section N are to be assessed.

  1. WFC comprises eight identical 31-storey domestic buildings, all of which share

an identical design [B11/5626-5627]. The required FSIs in each building are: a FAS, a FH/HR System, and fire extinguishers [B11/5627].

  1. The FSIs were installed in accordance with the 4th version of the Code of Practice

for Minimum Fire Service Installations and Equipment (November 1979), being the version in force when the first General Building Plan for the development of WFC was submitted in October 1980.

  1. The FAS at WFC is a manually-operated system. Each floor from the ground

floor to the 31st floor is equipped with one manual call point (a break-glass unit “BGU”) and one alarm bell, positioned adjacent to the hose reel [B11/5627]. An independent alarm panel was not required for a manually operated FAS under the 1979 Code of Practice. The mechanism is straightforward: breaking the glass releases a micro-switch, which actuates the alarm.

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level to the roof. Its major components comprise: a rooftop FS Water Tank (minimum effective firefighting quantity 18,200 litres [B2/1896]), which supplies hose reels and hydrant outlets; a ground-floor FS Transfer Tank (2,000 litres), which prevents backflow contamination; an upfeed pump on the ground floor, which relays water from the FS Transfer Tank up to the rooftop FS Water Tank; two FS/intermediate booster pumps on the ground floor (one duty and one standby), which pressurise water from both the FS inlet and FS Water Tank for the FH/HR System; an FS inlet; hydrant outlets at every staircase half-landing; and hose reel points on every floor from the ground floor to the 31st floor [B11/5628-5633].

operation. AD Keung Sai-ming of the FSD confirmed this during oral evidence: [Day 10/15/18 - 16/13]. The interconnection is deliberate: triggering the BGU also triggers the booster pump so that water is available when a fire is reported. The applicable Code of Practice provision (as referred to in AD Keung’s oral evidence) states that “the means of operating fire alarms shall be interconnected with the means of operating fixed fire pumps of fire hydrant/hose reel installations” [Day 10/15/18 - 16/13].

and a separate FS booster pump room [Day 10/7/5-8] [C1-2/1627]. 114.1. The general pump room houses the FS Transfer Tank, the upfeed pump, and three control panels. Of these, the red panel is the control panel of the FS upfeed pump; the white and green panels control the flushing-water system and fresh-water system respectively [Day 10/8/5-23] [C1-2/1651]. 49

  1. 2. The FS booster pump room houses the two booster pumps (duty and

standby), a larger control panel, and a separate, smaller main power switch. The larger control panel on the left-hand side controls the automatic operation of the FS booster pump [Day 5/92/1-4] [C1-2/1640-1642]. The smaller unit is the main power switch of the FS system [Day 10/10/5-7].

  1. The larger booster-pump panel carries individual controls including: pump 1 and

pump 2 isolator switches, a “silence alarm” switch, a normal-test switch, running and failure indicator lamps, a system reset, and three-phase power indicator lamps. AD Keung confirmed that “the on and off of the two pumps, even with main power connection on, these switches can control the on and off of the individual pumps” [Day 10/12/13-16] [C1-2/1640-1642].

  1. The single main power switch simultaneously controls the power supply to both

the FH/HR System (booster pumps) and FAS. Switching it to the “OFF” position deactivates both systems. AD Keung confirmed this unequivocally in oral evidence: when asked “to turn off the main power switch, the fire alarm system, booster pump and upfeed pump will all lose power?”, he answered “Right” [Day 10/10/14-17] [C1-2/1642].

  1. It is, however, possible to isolate the FH/HR System without cutting the main

power switch. The control panel is equipped with two pump isolator switches capable of interrupting power to the two pumps of the FH/HR System even when the main power switch remains in the “ON” position. AD Keung’s witness statement confirms that “it is possible to shut down solely the FH/HR system by simply switching off the pump isolators, rather than by switching off the main

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power switch, which would otherwise cut the power supply to both the FH/HR system and the FAS”7 [WS1/138] [C1-2/1641].

  1. To drain the rooftop FS Water Tank (which was the purpose of the renovation

works touching on the FH/HR System, addressed in Section N below), the technically necessary step is to switch off the upfeed pump in the main pump room and use the tank-side drain or gate valve on the roof. Nothing about the drainage process requires cutting the booster-pump main power switch. This is confirmed by both AD Keung [Day 10/16/14-18] and Chung Kit-man of Victory Fire [Day 6/29/9-11] [Day 9/27/17-24].

  1. Turning now to the inspections of FSI at WFC, Victory Fire was the RFSIC

engaged by ISS to conduct annual inspections of the FSIs at WFC. Victory Fire had held this role for approximately nine consecutive years (from about 2016), save for one intervening year8 [WS2/1270].

  1. The scope of Victory Fire’s annual contract included quarterly and annual FSI

inspections and submission of FS251 certificates to the FSD. The contract covered the emergency lighting, FH/HR System, FAS and fire extinguishers for all eight blocks9 [WS1/136]. As elaborated below, the FS251 certificate is the primary documentary mechanism by which the FSD monitors RFSIC performance.

  1. Victory Fire carried out the annual inspections of all eight blocks on 24 March

2025 (works 24 to 26 March) and issued FS251 certificates dated 31 March 2025 [B2/1440, 1484, 1505, 1579, 1604, 1671, 1707, 1770]. AD Keung’s witness statement records that “According to the FS251s dated 31.3.2025, all the FSIs

7 KEUNG Sai Ming 1st WS §10.3 8 鄭芷盈 (Cheng Tsz-ying, ISS) 1st WS §55 9 KEUNG Sai Ming 1st WS §9.1

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provided in Wang Fuk Court were in compliant with FSD requirements, certifying that all FSIs, including the FAS, should be operable” 10 [WS1/136].

  1. The March 2025 FS251s did, however, record several minor defects requiring

follow-up or repair action, including manual call point (a FAS component) defects at some locations11 [WS1/136]. A rectification contract to remedy these defects was awarded to Victory Fire in October 2025 following a separate tender exercise, and the rectification works were undertaken from 16 to 17 October 2025, and from 19 to 26 November 202512 [WS1/136; WS2/1270-1271; WS2/1529- 1530].

  1. The annual inspection was conducted using FSD-prescribed checklists. These

checklists need not be submitted with the FS251 to the FSD, but the RFSIC must retain them for seven years for potential FSD audit [Day 10/58/17-21]. The FSD’s audit of annual inspection checklists is conducted on a random sampling basis. AD Keung confirmed that approximately 300 checklists out of approximately 60,000 buildings per year (approximately 0.5%) are document-checked [Day 10/59/3 – 61/1]. Victory Fire’s WFC annual inspection checklists had not been selected for checking across approximately nine years [Day 10/59/3-9].

  1. The technical description set out above establishes three matters of particular

significance for the analysis in Section N below. 124.1. First, the FH/HR System and FAS share a single main power switch found in the booster pump room; switching it off deactivates both systems simultaneously, yet (by design and known to any qualified personnel) (i) the drainage of the FS Water Tank does not necessitate the switching off

10 KEUNG Sai Ming (AD Licensing & Certification of FSD) 1st WS §9.2 11 KEUNG Sai Ming 1st WS §9. 12 KEUNG Sai Ming 1st WS §9.3; Cheng Tsz-ying (ISS) 1st WS §§60-62; 鍾傑文 (Chung Kit-man, Victory Fire) 1st WS §§5-8

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of the FH/HR System (as opposed to the upfeed pump which is controlled, not by way of the single main power switch in the booster pump room, but by way of the upfeed switch found in the general pump room) and (ii) even if it does require the switching off of the FH/HR System, this does not (and should not) require the main power switch to be turned off at all. 124.2. Second, the system as designed places primary reliance on the RFSICs (Victory Fire and China Status, in the case of WFC) to inspect, certify and maintain the FSIs, with the FSD exercising a supervisory role through proactive audit check rather than continuous oversight. 124.3. Third, as at March 2025, Victory Fire certified all FSIs as operable; yet by 26 November 2025, the FAS in all eight blocks had been de-energised and incapable of alerting residents. The post-fire investigation by the FSD’s Fire Protection Facilities Supervision Division (“FPFS”) further revealed that the main power switches in seven of the eight blocks were found in the “OFF” position, and that the control fuses in the pump panels of all blocks (except Wang Cheong House) had blown. The consequence was that even after the main power switches were restored to the “ON” position, the FAS and intermediate booster pumps in the majority of blocks still could not be actuated [B11/5643]. How that transition occurred, and where responsibility for it lies, is the subject of Section N. E4. Statutory control of WFC by the ICU (i) The background of delegation from the BD to ICU

  1. The statutory control of WFC by the ICU, rather than by the BD directly, arises

from a delegation arrangement with a history spanning more than three decades since the early 1990s.

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it operates are essential to understanding the supervisory framework under which the WFC renovation works were conducted, and the boundaries of each body’s responsibility for the safety failures that the Committee has examined.

housing. The BO provides for the planning, design and construction of buildings and associated works, and for related safety requirements. However, section 41(1)(aa) of the BO exempts from its provisions “buildings upon any land vested in the Housing Authority or over which the Housing Authority has control and management,” subject to sections 18(2) and (3) of the Housing Ordinance (Cap. 283) (“HO”).

Housing Authority (“HA”) are not subject to the BO during the construction phase. The Government has been providing public housing since 1954, and when the HO was enacted in 1973 it also amended the BO to exempt public housing buildings designed and constructed by the HA from the application of the BO.

amended in 1978 so that the BO would apply to any HA building if, after its construction was completed, any part of it was sold or otherwise disposed of under section 17A of the HO 13 [WS1/725]. The consequence is that HOS buildings, once sold to private owners, become subject to the control of the BO. WFC, as a sold HOS estate built in 1983, therefore falls within this category: it was exempted from the BO under section 41(1)(aa) at the time when it was built, 13 PANG Yuk Lung, Michael (AD Corp Services, BD) 1st WS §40

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but came under the purview of the BO by virtue of section 18 of the HO after its units were sold to individual private owners14 [WS1/726].

  1. When sold HOS buildings first came under the BO following the 1978

amendment, building control was exercised by the then Buildings Ordinance Office (the predecessor of the BD, “BOO”). However, the BOO was not provided with as-built drawings of completed HOS blocks, which inhibited its enforcement of the BO. The HA, as the Deed of Mutual Covenant (“DMC”) manager, was better placed to exercise control by virtue of its powers under the DMC entered into by all flat owners at the time of purchase15 [WS1/726].

  1. Following a series of internal discussions and approvals, the formal delegation

process commenced. In June and July 1991, the BOO proposed the secondment of experienced BOO officers to assist the HA in achieving consistency in the interpretation of the BO. In February 1992, the HD provided a draft paper recommending that the HA take up building control of sold HOS buildings by way of authorisation under the BO for a trial period of three years, and this was endorsed by the BOO. On 1 June 1992, the then Secretary for Planning, Environment and Lands gave formal approval to the authorisation. The first authorisation instrument was issued on 25 June 1992, authorising certain officers of HD to act on behalf of the Building Authority (“BA”) in matters arising from specified provisions of the BO, including sections 22 to 28, 32A, 32B, 33 and 3416 [WS1/727-730].

  1. A further impetus for the development of the ICU came from a series of piling

scandals in the late 1990s, which triggered a fundamental reform of the HA’s construction quality assurance processes. AD Michael Pang of the BD confirmed

14 PANG Yuk Lung, Michael 1st WS §41 15 PANG Yuk Lung, Michael 1st WS §42 16 PANG Yuk Lung, Michael 1st WS §§44-51

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that in January 2000, the HA issued a paper entitled “Building Homes with Care” for public consultation, and in April 2000 approved a plan to implement 50 quality housing measures to enhance housing standards 17 [WS1/729]. To introduce independent third-party reviews of HA development projects, the HD established the ICU in November 2000, which reported directly to the Director of Housing over the conduct of third-party reviews of HA projects.

  1. Since 2004, the authorisation of HD officers under the BO to exercise building

control for sold HOS buildings has been redirected to officers of the ICU. The first authorisation instrument involving officers of ICU was issued on 28 April 2004, authorising officers to act on behalf of the BA in matters arising from an expanded list of BO provisions18 [WS1/730]. The delegation has been updated periodically since then. AD Michael Pang of the BD confirmed that the delegation instruments are renewed at intervals, with the most recent pre-fire instrument having been signed by the Director of Buildings on 12 December 2023, authorising officers of the ICU to act on behalf of the BA in matters arising from sections 22(1), 23, 24, 24A, 24AA, 24B, 24C, 25, 26, 26A, 27, 27A, 27B, 27C, 28, 29, 29A, 30, 30B, 30C, 31, 32A, 32B, 33, 34, 36C, 36F, 36G, 36H, 40(1BE), 44, 51, 52 and 53, and Schedule 7 of the BO, and all sections of the Building (Appeal) Regulation, and all matters arising under the BO in respect of alteration and addition (“A&A”) works, and minor works (“MW”) commenced under the simplified requirements19 [WS1/731].

  1. To underline its impartiality, the ICU was detached from the HD and placed under

the direct control of the Office of the Permanent Secretary for Transport and Housing (Housing) in 2015, and following a further government reorganisation

17 PANG Yuk Lung, Michael 1st WS §50 18 PANG Yuk Lung, Michael 1st WS §51 19 PANG Yuk Lung, Michael 1st WS §§54-55

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in July 2022, the ICU now reports to the Permanent Secretary for Housing20 [WS1/731]. AD Michael Pang of the BD confirmed that “the scope, extent and nature of the powers and duties delegated by DB to the officers of ICU are the same as that delegated to the officers of BD in handling all matters in connection with building control of existing buildings, the MBIS, the MWIS and the MWCS, as performed by the Existing Buildings Divisions 1 & 2, Mandatory Building Inspection Division and Corporate Services Division of BD” 21 [WS1/732].

  1. The conclusion to be drawn from this history is that the delegation arrangement

was not a temporary or expedient measure but the product of a deliberate, decades-long policy to concentrate building control of sold HOS estates within a specialised body that could draw upon the HA’s institutional knowledge of those estates while exercising the BA’s statutory powers. When the WFC renovation works were underway, it was the ICU that exercised statutory building control over the estate. (ii) “Administrative control” vs. “statutory control”

  1. The ICU’s work is divided into two distinct regimes, the distinction between

which is fundamental to understanding the nature and limits of its authority over WFC. Lau Fu-kwok, then Head of the ICU, explained these as the “administrative building control” regime and “statutory building control” regime22 [WS1/601].

  1. The administrative building control regime applies to HA buildings that remain

exempt from the BO, including new construction sites of the HA and existing public rental housing estates without any part sold or otherwise disposed of by the HA. For these buildings, the BO does not apply as a matter of law by virtue of section 41(1)(aa) of the BO read with section 18(2) of the HO. Nevertheless,

20 PANG Yuk Lung, Michael 1st WS §§54-55 21 PANG Yuk Lung, Michael 1st WS §56 22 LAU Fu Kwok (then Head of ICU) 1st WS §6

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by way of a Memorandum of Understanding between the Director of Housing and Director of Buildings (the latest version dated 1 July 2022) (“MOU”) [I1- 1/54-59], the HA and HD have committed administratively to adhering to the requirements under the BO, its subsidiary legislation and codes of practice and guidelines issued by the BD at all times for the design and construction of HA buildings. Pursuant to clause 2 of the MOU [I1-1/56], the ICU is responsible for this administrative building control in line with the BO and related requirements, covering the approval of building plans, the granting of consent to commencement of works, site monitoring for buildings under construction and existing buildings with A&A works in progress, and conducting final inspections for the issue of occupation permits or acknowledgement of completion.

  1. The statutory building control regime, by contrast, is the regime under which the

ICU exercises the BA’s delegated powers under the BO itself. This regime applies to buildings developed by the HA where any part has been sold or otherwise disposed of under sections 4(2)(a) and 17A of the HO, so that those buildings are brought within the BO by operation of section 18(3) of the HO23 [WS1/603-606]. The ICU’s evidence identifies these functions as including: processing building and structural plan submissions, consent applications and reports of completion for A&A works; carrying out site monitoring of A&A works and MW as necessary; implementing the MBIS and MWIS; processing MW submissions under the MWCS; exercising building control regarding unauthorised building works and dilapidated buildings and building elements; conducting planned surveys to identify UBW and building defects for follow-up actions; and providing emergency services related to building and drainage defects 24 [WS1/605-606].

23 LAU Fu Kwok 1st WS §§10-15 24 LAU Fu Kwok 1st WS §13

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(iii) The scope of delegation

  1. The scope of the delegation from the BA to the ICU is defined by the delegation

instruments issued under section 2(2) of the BO, the most recent of which (prior to the fire) was dated 12 December 2023 [I1-1/11-18]. As set out above, those instruments authorise officers of the ICU to exercise the BA’s powers under a comprehensive list of BO provisions, encompassing the full range of existing- building control functions.

  1. The delegation does not, however, extend to all functions of the BA. As noted

above, prosecution powers under section 40 and disciplinary powers under sections 7 and 13 of the BO have not been delegated to the ICU. Nor does the delegation extend to the regulation of registered building professionals and contractors as such; the registers of RIs and RCs are maintained by the BD, and the registration, renewal and de-registration processes are administered by the BD25 [WS1/607].

  1. The relationship between the BD and ICU is maintained through several

institutional mechanisms. 141.1. First, the ICU submits six-monthly reports to the BD covering its statutory building control activities, and a management-level liaison meeting between Head(ICU) and the Deputy Director of the BD is held at six- monthly intervals to discuss these reports. Lau Fu-kwok acknowledged, however, that “as the progress reports cover mainly policy or overall operational issues, hence details of individual projects (including the renovation details of Wang Fuk Court) would not be, and were not as a matter of fact, captured therein”26 [WS1/613]. The WFC renovation was

25 LAU Fu Kwok 1st WS §15 26 LAU Fu Kwok 1st WS §21

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never mentioned in the six-monthly reports, nor was it raised in the management-level liaison meetings. 141.2. Second, working-level meetings are held between specific teams: the MBIS Liaison Meeting between the MBIS teams of the ICU and BD; the MWCS Liaison Meeting between the MW teams; and Sectional Meetings attended by the Senior Building Surveyor seconded from the BD 27 [WS1/735]. These meetings serve to align policies, standards and practice, and to share experience or discuss difficult cases. AD Michael Pang of the BD confirmed that “BD was given to know that ICU has been following the BO and BD’s policies, standards and practices in exercising its delegated duties” 28 [WS1/737] through these channels. 141.3. Third, the BD seconds three senior professional officers to the ICU: a Senior Building Surveyor/Building Control (SBS/BC), a Senior Building Surveyor/Advisory (SBS/Adv), and a Senior Structural Engineer/Advisory (SSE/Adv) 29 [WS1/738-743]. These seconded officers provide guidance to the ICU on the interpretation of BO provisions and legislative requirements. The SBS/BC in post at the material time (25 April 2023 to 6 July 2025) was Mr Franco Tse Kam-ming, whose role in the foam board issue is addressed in Section K of these submissions. Mr Franco Tse gave evidence on Day 20. These seconded officers are under the direct supervision of Chief Maintenance Surveyor/ICU and Chief Structural Engineer/ICU respectively, with their performance appraised by their supervisors within the ICU rather than by the BD.

27 PANG Yuk Lung, Michael 1st WS §61 28 PANG Yuk Lung, Michael 1st WS §66 29 PANG Yuk Lung, Michael 1st WS §§67-74

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  1. 4. Fourth, clause 3.2 of the MOU [I1-1/58] provides that “BD may conduct

audit checks on ICU when necessary to ensure that the standards of checking by ICU are consistent with those of BD”. In practice, the audit function was discharged through the BD secondees serving as advisors within the ICU, who played the role of auditor as well during their daily work in relation to A&A works submissions, giving advice to the vetting team on the interpretation of the BO [Day 24/71/7 - 72/2]. While no separate formal audit checks were conducted by the BD on the ICU’s MBIS work specifically, the presence of BD secondees within the ICU provided a standing and practicable mechanism for ensuring alignment of standards and practice between the two bodies.

  1. The scope of the delegation, taken as a whole, gave the ICU the statutory authority

to exercise building control over WFC in the same manner as the BD exercises control over private buildings generally. The evidence demonstrates, however, that the delegation was accompanied by institutional constraints and resource pressures within the specialist teams. By way of illustration, the evidence of Andy Ku of the ICU provides a revealing account of the MBIST’s workload. 142.1. In 2025 alone, the team issued 21 MBIS statutory notices and nearly 17,000 MWIS statutory notices; handled approximately 32,000 MWIS submissions; issued 275 fixed penalty notices; investigated 25 prosecution cases under the MWIS; and handled 1,300 complaints or enquiries under the MBIS and MWIS (excluding verbal telephone enquiries) 30 [WS14/2129-2130]. 142.2. Ku confirmed that “almost 90% of the MBIST’s time and efforts is dedicated to the MWIS” 31 [WS14/2129-2131], and that in addition to

30 KU Siu Ping (Senior Maintenance Surveyor, ICU) 3rd WS §8 31 KU Siu Ping 3rd WS §§8-9

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newly issued statutory notices, the MBIST was required to attend to statutory notices previously issued but not yet complied with in 42 courts and estates at various stages of the process.

  1. The evidence demonstrates the significant resource constraints under which the

MBIST operated, and contextualises the level of attention that was available for any individual renovation project, including the WFC renovation. These constraints are relevant to the Committee’s assessment of the ICU’s supervisory performance during the WFC renovation works. As to the MWT, Yung Siu Lun of the ICU confirmed that in 2025, the MWT (comprising only 10 professional and technical staff in total) received 27,585 MW submissions, of which 1,425 (5.17%) were audited [WS14/2119]32. He stated that “on average, each PO handled over 350 audited MW submissions in 2025” and that “in addition to the random audit arrangement, MWT also conducted form screening for around 4,000 MW submissions related to windows and external wall repairs in 2025” [WS14/2119] 33. The MWT was also “responsible for performing other MWCS- related duties including handling enquiries/complaints, uploading signboard information online for public viewing and enhancing the Minor Works Management System” [WS14/2119] 34. As a matter of fairness, these constraints ought to be taken into account in the Committee’s assessment of the ICU’s supervisory performance during the WFC renovation works. E5. Issuance of the statutory notices to WFC under the MBIS

  1. WFC was selected as a target building under the MBIS in 2013. The secretary of

the ICU’s Selection Panel identified all HOS/TPS/BRO/GSH courts aged over 30 years, prepared building scores for each eligible building, and finalised a nomination list. The ICU nominated five courts; WFC ranked fourth with a score

32 YUNG Siu Lun (Senior Maintenance Surveyor, ICU) 2nd WS §10 33 YUNG Siu Lun 2nd WS §11 34 YUNG Siu Lun 2nd WS §12

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of 3235 [WS1/627-628]. The Selection Panel meeting was held on 13 December 2013; members did not raise any concern in relation to WFC 36 [WS1/628]. Following verification that WFC had not carried out inspection or prescribed repair works relevant to the MBIS, all eight blocks were selected as target buildings. The final list was approved by the then CMS/ICU on 12 March 201437 [WS1/629].

  1. Under the building score system then in force [I1-2/1632-1634], a higher score

was accorded to buildings with an OC on the basis that the prospect of compliance with MBIS notices would be better for such buildings. Ku confirmed in oral evidence that this scoring criterion has since been revised; under the current system [J1-2/4740-4742], higher scores are instead accorded to ‘three-nil’ buildings lacking proper building management [Day 22/9/14 - 10/24].

  1. The ICU sent a pre-notification letter for the MBIS to the WFC IO on 29 April

2014 [I1-2/1678-1685]. The statutory notices were issued on 10 June 2016, served on the WFC IO under section 30B(3) of the BO [I1-2/1686]. Following the issuance of the statutory notices, and given active progress by the WFC IO, the ICU approved extensions of time for compliance on five occasions between June 2017 and October 201938 [WS1/629].

  1. The WFC IO appointed Will Power as the inspection consultant (covering the

provision of RI services – as the RI must be an individual) in January 2019. Will Power engaged an individual known as Mr Shum Kui Chung to take up the duties of an RI (at least on paper, see e.g. Certificate of Building Inspection (Form MBI 3) of Wang Yan House [I1-2/1881]) and submit Inspection Reports together with

35 KU Siu Ping 1st WS §§15-16 36 KU Siu Ping 1st WS §17 37 KU Siu Ping 1st WS §18 38 KU Siu Ping 1st WS §20

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Forms MBI 3; the said Inspection Reports and Forms MBI 3 were submitted to the ICU on 10 December 2019. Of these eight submissions, the one for Block E was sampled for a full audit check (document audit and site audit) under the MBIS; the remaining seven were subject to preliminary and fundamental checks only. Both the document audit and site audit results for Block E were satisfactory39 [WS1/634]. E6. The WFC renovation works following completion of the MBIS inspection – mainly governed by the MWCS

  1. Based on Will Power’s Inspection Reports submitted in December 2019, the

proposed prescribed repair works for WFC comprised only MW and exempted works under the BO. No works requiring prior plan approval and consent from the BA were identified. The renovation works under the MBIS and those outside the scope of MBIS were therefore carried out principally under the MWCS, the regulatory framework and model of which are described in Section F below.

  1. At the time of the fire, there were 48 MW submissions related to renovation works

in the common areas of WFC that were still ongoing. These comprised 24 Forms MW01 (notices of commencement of Class I MW) and 24 Forms MW03 (notices of commencement of Class II MW). No certificate of completion had been received by the ICU before the fire, as the works were still in progress.

  1. Of these 48 submissions, two Class I MW submissions were randomly selected

for the Audit Fundamental Check (“AFC”) under the MWCS: MWB02504820 and MWB02504821, both submitted on 2 May 202540 [WS1/665]. These related to the erection of protective barriers and alteration of windows along the staircases of Blocks F and H respectively. The window works they covered were

39 KU Siu Ping 1st WS §34 40 YUNG Siu Lun 1st WS §31

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the very works that involved the replacement of staircase windows with the access openings addressed in Section M.

  1. The remaining 46 of the 48 submissions received no further check beyond the

Form Screening Check and Preliminary Check, because they either did not fulfil the criteria for priority selection or were not selected through the random ballot41 [WS1/668].

  1. The WFC renovation, valued at approximately HK$336 million and involving

extensive exterior modifications to eight 31-storey residential buildings housing thousands of residents, was classified and processed through the regulatory framework applicable to minor works, i.e. the MWCS. Whether this classification was adequate for a project of this scale and complexity is a systemic question addressed in Section Q. E7. Before the WFC fire – the Mariners’ Club incident (2023) and Chinachem Tower incident (October 2025, shortly before the WFC fire)

  1. Two significant fire incidents involving scaffolding on high-rise buildings

preceded the WFC fire and are relevant to the Committee’s assessment of the regulatory and supervisory response to known fire risks in renovation works. The first was a fire at the Mariners’ Club building in Tsim Sha Tsui in March 2023; the second was a fire at Chinachem Tower in Central on 18 October 2025, just five weeks before the WFC incident.

  1. The Mariners’ Club fire occurred on 2 to 3 March 2023 and involved a building

that was under construction with scaffolding erected at the upper levels. The fire was classified as a No. 4 alarm fire. It is relevant that the incident involved the

41 YUNG Siu Lun 1st WS §38

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spread of fire along scaffolding of a high-rise building, a mechanism of spread that would later prove catastrophic at WFC.

  1. The significance of the Mariners’ Club fire for the present inquiry lies in the

regulatory response it prompted. Following the Mariners’ Club fire: 155.1. The BD issued a circular letter to all prescribed building professionals and RCs on 21 March 2023 on the subject of “Use of Fire Retardant Protective Net/Screen/Tarpaulin/Plastic Sheeting on Façade of Buildings under Construction, Demolition, Repair or Minor Works” [J1-2/5915]. This circular letter specifically stated that “protective net, screen, tarpaulin/plastic sheeting installed to cover the façade of buildings under construction, demolition, repair or minor works should have appropriate fire retardant properties in compliance with a recognised standard,” and listed three examples of recognised standards: GB 5725-2009, BS 5867- 2:2008 (Type B performance requirements), and NFPA 701:2019 (Test Method 2) [J1-2/5915]. 155.2. In addition, the FSD issued Circular Letter No. 2/2024 dated 21 March 2024 [B2/1312-1317], which introduced revised requirements on fire protection measures in high-rise buildings under construction with a designed construction height of 30 metres or above. The circular required the provision of a closed-circuit type water relaying system and other fire protection measures to facilitate firefighting operations in such buildings. The circular further required the responsible registered general building contractor or authorised person to inform the local fire station of any circumstances that may lead to the unavailability of the system or the failure to maintain its performance, including defects and temporary shutdowns, and to adopt suitable alternative measures without delay. The

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FSD Circular Letter No. 2/2024 took effect from 1 July 2024 and applied to buildings under construction rather than existing buildings undergoing renovation.

  1. The Chinachem Tower fire on 18 October 2025 was a more proximate and

directly relevant precedent. Chinachem Tower, a commercial building in Hong Kong’s Central Business District, was undergoing renovation works when a fire broke out on exterior scaffolding. The fire was classified as a No. 3 alarm fire and spread rapidly along the exterior scaffolding, generating heavy smoke visible from across Victoria Harbour. At least four persons were hospitalised. The BD subsequently assessed the building as structurally sound, and the fire was brought under control without fatalities.

  1. The Chinachem Tower fire prompted a more intensive regulatory response than

the Mariners’ Club incident. On 21 October 2025, the BD issued a further circular letter [J1-2/6192-6193] to all PBPs and RCs, requiring them “to take immediate action to inspect and ascertain the fire-retardant property of the protective materials on the façade of buildings with building works under their charge”42 [WS1/825]. The circular letter stated that if contractors were found to be using protective materials with inadequate FR properties, the BD would take appropriate actions including consideration of instigating prosecution and disciplinary actions.

  1. Ku confirmed that the Chinachem Tower fire also prompted the ICU to take

proactive steps in relation to the courts / estates under its purview. On 23 October 2025, the ICU sent an email to the RIs appointed to the five courts / estates undergoing repair works under the watch of the MBIST, including the RI of WFC, reminding them “to give clear instruction to all parties including the contractors,

42 YUE Chak Sang (AD NB1, BD) 1st WS §41

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site supervision staff and their team members to prioritise fire safety” and “to ensure that the scaffolding was in good condition and that the fire-retardant properties of the scaffolding nets fully complied with the requirements of BD circular and the Code of Practice for Bamboo Scaffolding Safety issued by LD, given the scaffolding had been in use for an extended period and some scaffolding nets had been replaced after the typhoon”43 [Il-4/8903-8912] [WS1/645-646].

  1. The ICU also attached information regarding fire safety at construction sites

issued by the Construction Industry Council and an FSD’s circular letter regarding fire protection measures in high-rise buildings under construction. On 27 October 2025, the ICU sent a further email to the same group of RIs, reminding them to comply with the requirements set out in the BD’s circular letter of 21 October 202544 [Il-4/8913-8918] [WS1/646]. The site inspection at WFC on 28 October 2025, at which further quick tests of scaffolding nets were conducted, was partly prompted by this heightened concern following the Chinachem Tower incident45 [WS14/2140-2142].

  1. Following the Chinachem Tower fire, the FSD also offered to assist the BD in

conducting fire tests on scaffolding nets. AD Yung Kam-hung confirmed that “the FSD learned from the BD that they were conducting further reviews on the use of scaffolding nets, and offered to assist in the process. A fire test for scaffolding nets was subsequently scheduled for 12 December 2025 at the Fire and Ambulance Services Academy of the FSD. However, the test was withheld due to the fire incident at Wang Fuk Court on 26 November 2025”46 [WS1/98- 99]. AD Yung also confirmed that although no additional active fire safety provision was considered necessary for buildings under renovation following the

43 KU Siu Ping 1st WS §51 44 KU Siu Ping 1st WS §52 45 KU Siu Ping 3rd WS §§34-41 46 YUNG Kam Hung, Michael (AD Fire Safety of FSD) 1st WS §20.2

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Chinachem Tower fire, the FSD’s assistance to the BD in reviewing scaffolding nets represented inter-departmental cooperation on a matter that, while primarily within the BD’s regulatory purview, had direct implications for firefighting operations47 [WS1/99].

  1. The circular letters, reminder emails and site inspections that followed the

Chinachem Tower fire represented a measurably heightened level of regulatory attention. The two preceding fire incidents provided a clear warning; the question for the Committee is whether the regulatory response to those warnings was sufficient, and what systemic reforms are needed to ensure that comparable warnings produce more effective protective actions in a pre-emptive manner in the future.

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F. THE REGULATORY FRAMEWORK UNDER EACH RELEVANT AREA AND STAKEHOLDERS’ ROLES AND RESPONSIBILITIES (I) Areas in which the Government has a facilitative role F1. General building management under private ownership (i) The regulatory framework and model

  1. The regulatory framework for building management in Hong Kong is premised

on the principle of private ownership. The right to private property is enshrined in Articles 6 and 105 of the Basic Law of the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region. The Government takes the view that the right to private property carries with it the inherent responsibility for its proper management, including up- keeping and maintenance. Government intervention in private property management should be premised on safeguarding the public interest, and should be exercised with caution and restraint given the right of private ownership48 [WS1/486].

  1. The BMO provides the principal legislative framework. It is enacted to provide

for the IOs, and the management and maintenance of their buildings. The Secretary for Home and Youth Affairs (“SHYA”) is the Authority under the BMO, and the HAD is her executive arm [WS1/486]49. For a building in which owners hold undivided shares, the responsibility for managing the common parts is to be discharged collectively and jointly; the BMO provides the legal mechanism for owners to form a legal entity, namely the Owners’ Corporation OC, to assume and discharge their shared responsibility on building management50 [WS1/486].

48 TE Chi Wang (Deputy Director, HAD) 1st WS §7 49 See also section 2 of the BMO [G1/11] and [Day 24/8/26-35 (Chinese transcript)] 50 TE Chi Wang 1st WS §8

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management and maintenance of common parts of buildings. Pursuant to section 18(2) of the BMO, an OC possesses powers including the power to engage and remunerate staff, accountants, managers, or other professionals; to improve and maintain common areas; to carry out renovation, improvement or decoration works on common parts; and to act on behalf of the owners in matters of common interest. The BMO also confers on individual owners the rights to monitor the work of the OC and its MC, including the rights to inspect financial statements and, if applicable, accountants’ reports, and to require the MC chairman to convene an OC general meeting for specified purposes at the request of not less than 5% of the owners51 [WS1/486].

44(1)(b) of the BMO: the Code of Practice on Procurement of Supplies, Goods and Services [G-1/251-260] and Code of Practice on Building Management and Safety [G-1/261-284]. Recognising that MCs are often comprised of owners who are laymen and serve on a voluntary basis, these Codes of Practice provide practical guidelines and benchmarks for reasonable conduct in their respective areas52 [WS1/491]. While under section 44(2) of the BMO, a failure to follow any of the Codes does not of itself constitute a criminal offence, in any civil or criminal proceedings such a failure may be relied upon as admissible evidence relevant to establishing or disputing liability53 [WS1/491].

by a statutory framework that provides the mechanism for collective decision- making. The Government’s role is facilitative: to assist owners in forming OCs, 51 TE Chi Wang 1st WS §9 52 TE Chi Wang 1st WS §18 53 TE Chi Wang 1st WS §19

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to provide consultative and support services, and to intervene where public interest demands and the self-regulatory mechanisms are inadequate. (ii) The Government’s facilitative role (for the case of WFC)

  1. The HAD, through District Building Management Liaison Teams (“DBMLTs”)

in each of the 18 District Offices, provides a range of services to OCs and owners. These include: assisting in OC formation; attending owners’ meetings upon invitation and providing advice according to the BMO; advising parties of non- compliance and requesting rectification; answering BMO enquiries; and organising training and briefings for MC members and owners54 [WS1/487-488].

  1. In the case of WFC, the Tai Po District Office (“TPDO”) assisted owners in the

operation of the OC and dealing of building management matters, including attending owners’ meetings and providing information to owners as and when necessary (including meetings on 25 January 2019, 13 December 2019, 11 December 2021, 4 March 2023, 28 January 2024, 25 May 2024, 6 September 2024, 5 October 2024, 21 March 2025 and 13 September 2025); giving advice on operational procedures of meetings; handling enquiries and complaints relating to building management; and, for matters not under the BMO, referring complaints and requests to responsible departments and relevant bodies such as the BD, URA, and Competition Commission where appropriate55 [WS1/504].

  1. The HAD’s attendance at WFC meetings was in line with the usual role of HAD

representatives at owners’ meetings, namely “to observe the meeting to provide advice when any irregularity is spotted” 56 [WS1/504]. HAD representatives maintain impartiality and professionalism, offering advice solely on BMO

54 TE Chi Wang 1st WS §10 55 CHAN Hau Man (former DO Tai Po, HAD) 1st WS §7 56 CHAN Hau Man 1st WS §7

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provisions, especially those governing procedures relating to the conduct of owners’ meetings and the rights and powers of the IO and owners.

  1. Section 40A(1) of the BMO empowers the Authority (i.e. the SHYA) or an

authorised officer to inspect common parts of a building, attend OC general meetings, and inspect or obtain copies of OC budgets, accounts, documents and records, for the purpose of ascertaining how a building is being controlled, managed, or administered57 [WS1/492]. Given the HAD’s facilitative role, in most cases OCs and owners are willing to work with the HAD in a voluntary and cooperative manner, and section 40A serves mostly as a “last resort” for exceptional cases58 [WS1/492]. In the case of WFC, the buildings were at all material times managed by a functional MC, there was an elected body operating within the framework of the BMO with the assistance of a licensed PMC, and both the MC and PMC had been cooperative; accordingly the HAD did not see the need to trigger the powers under section 40A against WFC59 [WS1/493].

  1. The facilitative model had been operating effectively in the majority of

circumstances at WFC. Its systemic design which defines the HAD’s role, particularly in the context of large-scale renovation procurement where owners would face complex decisions without the benefit of specialist expertise, is addressed in Section U below. (iii) The other stakeholders’ responsibilities - owners and the PMC

  1. Under the BMO and regulatory model described above, it is the owners, acting

through the OC and MC, who bear primary responsibility for the management of their building. The decision whether to carry out renovation works, what scope of works to undertake, which consultant and contractor to engage, and how to

57 TE Chi Wang 1st WS §21 58 TE Chi Wang 1st WS §22 59 TE Chi Wang 1st WS §24

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supervise the works are all decisions that the BMO allocates to the owners collectively.

  1. Section 18(2)(fa) of the BMO stipulates that it is the OC’s duty to “carry out any

renovation, improvement or decoration work to the common parts” of the building60 [WS1/504]. Section 18(2)(g) states that the OC may act on behalf of the owners in respect of any other matter in which the owners have a common interest61 [WS1/504].

  1. The PMC engaged by the OC assumes responsibility for the day-to-day

management of the building on behalf of the OC.

  1. In the case of WFC, the owners made the decisions to engage Will Power as the

consultant providing RI services, to approve the renovation option, and to appoint Prestige as the main contractor. ISS served as the licensed PMC. Both of the above decisions, and the subsequent supervision of the works, were the primary responsibility of the owners (including through their IO/MC) and professionals they engaged; again, the Government’s role was facilitative. F2. Owners’ Engagement of professionals for maintenance of the FSI system (i) The regulatory framework and model for ownership and maintenance of FSIs

  1. The regulatory framework for ownership and maintenance of FSIs in residential

buildings is established by the FSO (Cap. 95) and its subsidiary legislation, principally the Fire Service (Installation Contractors) Regulations (Cap. 95A) and Fire Service (Installations and Equipment) Regulations (Cap. 95B)62 [WS1/104].

60 CHAN Hau Man 1st WS §7 61 CHAN Hau Man 1st WS §7 62 KEUNG Sai Ming 1st WS §5.3.1

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responsibility to keep such installation or equipment in efficient working order at all times, and shall arrange for inspection of such FSI by an RFSIC at least once every 12 months.

maintain, inspect, or repair any FSI that is required by or pursuant to law to be installed63 [WS1/105]. This requirement places the execution of FSI maintenance in the hands of professionally qualified contractors who are registered with and subject to the disciplinary oversight of the FSD, while the responsibility for engaging such a contractor and ensuring annual inspections are conducted rests with the building owners.

with RFSIC responsibility for execution: it is for the owners (or the OC, or in appropriate cases the PMC acting on the OC’s behalf) to select and engage a suitably registered RFSIC; it is for the RFSIC to carry out the maintenance, inspection or repair in accordance with the applicable Codes of Practice and to certify the result to the FSD by way of an FS251 certificate. (ii) The Government’s facilitative role

is primarily through the FS251 audit mechanism and SDN regime, addressed in Section F4 below. The FSD also maintains the register of RFSICs and makes it publicly accessible so that owners may select a contractor.

in engaging an RFSIC to inspect and maintain FSIs, and the contractual 63 KEUNG Sai Ming 1st WS §5.4.1

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arrangement between them. As AD Keung confirmed, the FSD “is not privy to the engagement process nor the contractual negotiations and therefore will not be directly involved in the technical content of the works”64 [WS8/1911]. The RFSIC engaged will inspect the FSI and, if there is a need for the FSI to be shut down for maintenance, modification or repair overnight or for more than 24 hours continuously, the RFSIC will notify the FSD of the shutdown. The notification system for FSI shutdown is not an approval mechanism; the RFSICs bear the ultimate responsibility in certifying the FSIs are in efficient working order and are expected to exercise their professional skills and judgement accordingly [WS8/1911].

  1. As part of its enforcement priority, the FSD focuses more on buildings that are

unable to have any RFSIC engaged for FSI maintenance, in which circumstances the FSD will take enforcement actions. AD Keung confirmed in oral evidence: “for our priorities, we are more worried that there’s no one doing annual maintenance. And if annual maintenance is being done, if no one is following up on the defects, it is also a problem” [Day 10/147/8-13]. WFC had a functioning OC, an engaged PMC (ISS), and an RFSIC (Victory Fire) under contract for annual inspections.

  1. In the case of WFC, Victory Fire was engaged, annual inspections were

conducted (March 2025), FS251 certificates were submitted, and the FSD received and processed them. The systemic problems that subsequently arose in the FSI regime stemmed from failures in the execution of primary responsibilities by private actors; these are addressed in Sections F4 and N.

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(iii) The other stakeholders’ responsibilities – owners, the PMC, contractors, consultant and RI

  1. As stated above, Regulation 8 of Cap. 95B imposes on the owner the legal

responsibility to keep the FSI in efficient working order at all times and to arrange for annual inspections by an RFSIC65 [WS1/108]. In practice, for an estate such as WFC where a PMC is engaged (i.e. ISS), the OC normally delegates the day- to-day management of the FSI (including the engagement of an RFSIC and follow-up on defects) to the PMC. The DMC typically stipulates that FSIs in common areas are common parts, and the OC is responsible for their maintenance66 [WS1/109].

  1. Under the Property Management Services Ordinance (Cap. 626), licensed PMCs

are required to comply with the codes of conduct issued by the PMSA. In the context of FSIs, the PMSA Code of Conduct for Handling Fire Safety Work [B2/2631-2633] requires the PMC to clearly stipulate in the RFSIC contract that the RFSIC must comply with the FSD requirements, to monitor the progress of the RFSIC’s work, to follow up timely with the RFSIC on required rectifications and keep relevant documents, to follow up timely with the RFSIC that it has to notify the DFS of any FSI shutdowns, and to assist FSD officers during visits, inspections or investigations67 [WS1/109].

  1. In the case of WFC, ISS engaged Victory Fire as the RFSIC for the annual

inspections and rectification works of the FSIs. In addition, to the knowledge of ISS, Prestige engaged China Status ostensibly as the RFSIC for renovation works of the FS Water Tanks (which were an integral part of the FSIs). Yet, ISS also received requests from Prestige to assist with the drainage of the FS Water Tanks, which led to the shutdown of the main power switch by ISS’s own electrician (a

65 KEUNG Sai Ming 1st WS §5.5.1 66 KEUNG Sai Ming 1st WS §5.5.3 67 KEUNG Sai Ming 1st WS §5.5.3

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non-RFSIC). The primary responsibility for ensuring that only an RFSIC operated the FSI, and for coordinating between the two simultaneously engaged RFSICs (Victory Fire and China Status), rested with ISS as the PMC, the OC as the owners of the FSI, Prestige as the contractor engaged by the owners to undertake renovation works of FS Water Tanks, and Will Power and Ng Yeuk appointed as consultant and RI for supervising the renovation works as a whole. Their failures in discharging these responsibilities are addressed in detail in Section N. F3. Owners’ engagement of building professionals for carrying out building- or estate-wide inspections and renovation works (i) The regulatory framework and model

  1. Under the MBIS introduced by the BO, building owners of private buildings aged

30 years or above who are served with a statutory notice are required to appoint a RI to carry out prescribed inspection and a RC to carry out any necessary rectification and repair works under the supervision of the RI68 [WS1/779]. The registers of RIs and RCs are maintained by the BD.

  1. The BA has no involvement in the appointment of the RI and RC. It is the IO’s

decision which RI and RC to engage; the IO is also responsible for deciding whether to employ a consultant, and if so, which one. The system is designed to respect the owners’ autonomy in making these commercial decisions, while requiring that whoever is appointed must be suitably registered and is qualified under the BO.

  1. There is no mandatory requirement under the BO for the employment of

consultants for the MBIS. It is the IO’s decision whether to employ any, and if so, the IO should also be responsible for taking the necessary steps for the

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engagement of the consultant. The BD or ICU has no role in reviewing or confirming the quality, reliability and integrity of consultants69 [WS1/626].

  1. The model is therefore one of owner-led procurement underpinned by

professional registration requirements. The BA sets the standards for registration and maintains the registers; the owners select from the registered pool; and the professionals bear primary statutory responsibility for the quality, safety and compliance of the works they carry out and supervise.

  1. Legislation and related mechanisms exist to guard against improper collusion,

bid-rigging corruption and other irregularities in the procurement process. These include the Prevention of Bribery Ordinance (Cap. 201), Competition Ordinance (Cap. 619), and Building Management (Amendment) Ordinance 2024 70 (effective July 2025) which introduces enhanced declaration of interest requirements for high-value procurement and a “voting-in-person” threshold for large-scale maintenance procurement. The Government’s approach recognises that the owners’ collective decision-making process is vulnerable to manipulation and provides legal safeguards while preserving the foundational principle that the decisions themselves are the owners’ to make. (ii) The Government’s facilitative role

  1. The Government’s facilitative role in the engagement of building professionals

for inspection and renovation works operates through multiple channels.

  1. The HAD, through the Central Platform on Building Management established

since 2018, organises monthly briefings for OCs and owners at which relevant

69 KU Siu Ping 1st WS §11 70 While these BMO amendments were in force at the time of the WFC fire, they post-dated the engagement of Will Power (2019) and Prestige (January 2024) and were therefore not applicable to the procurement decisions in the case of WFC.

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government departments (including the BD, FSD, Electrical and Mechanical Services Department (“EMSD”), LD and Police) and institutions (including the ICAC, URA and Competition Commission) may be invited to introduce their services and schemes on building management and maintenance, including details of services, application procedures, and channels for making further enquiries. These briefings are particularly directed at owners and OCs that have received MBIS notices71 [WS1/489-490; Day 24/3/17 – 4/13]. DBMLTs also organise seminars, workshops and briefings for OCs and owners in their respective districts by inviting the relevant departments and organisations to introduce information related to building management and maintenance, so owners can better fulfil their responsibilities in managing their buildings 72 [WS1/490].

  1. The URA provides further facilitative support through the Smart Tender scheme

(addressed in Section U1 below), which offers an e-tendering platform designed to reduce the risk of bid-rigging in contractor procurement. The HAD, through its Free Legal Advice Service on Building Management and dispute resolution services, provide mechanisms for owners facing disagreements about renovation decisions73 [WS1/489].

  1. The BD has also published guidance materials to assist owners in the appointment

of RIs and RCs, including the Practice Note for Mandatory Building and Window Inspection Schemes 2 (“PNBI-2”) [J1-2/4975-4977] on best practice for tendering procedures, a Fact Sheet on mechanisms for fostering a fair and healthy building inspection and repair service market [J1-2/5934-5935], and the Building Maintenance Guidebook [J1-1/1139-1467] [WS1/791-792]74. These publications

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provide comprehensive guidance on combatting corruption, preventing bid- rigging, and services in tender and contract management.

  1. The facilitative model is intended to equip owners with the information, services

and legal safeguards needed to make informed decisions about the professionals they engage for building maintenance and renovation, without the Government itself directing the commercial choices that owners make about their own property. (iii) The other stakeholders’ responsibilities – owners and the PMC

  1. The primary responsibility for the engagement of building professionals rests

with the owners acting through their OC and MC. They must decide which RI and RC to appoint, evaluate competing bids, and satisfy themselves as to the suitability and competence of the professionals they select. Where owners choose to engage a consultant to advise them on the procurement process, that too is their decision and their responsibility.

  1. In the case of WFC, the IO appointed Will Power as the consultant to provide,

among other things, RI services, and subsequently appointed Prestige as the main contractor, through owners’ meetings at which the decisions were approved by majority vote. Neither the HAD, nor the ICU, nor the BD had any involvement in these appointment decisions. The professionals so appointed bore the primary statutory obligations under the BO for the safety and compliance of the works; the owners bore the responsibility of having selected them.

  1. The evidence before the Committee demonstrates that in the building

maintenance sector, the procurement process is vulnerable to manipulation by organised syndicates, as documented by the Competition Commission, ICAC and Police (addressed in detail in Section S below). The Government’s facilitative

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model, while respecting the principle of private ownership, depends for its efficacy on the integrity of the professionals from whom owners must choose and on the enforcement mechanisms available when that integrity is absent. (II) Areas in which the Government has a supervisory role F4. Management of fire risks and maintenance of FSI (i) The regulatory framework and model

  1. The regulatory framework for FSIs is established by statute and designed to

ensure that all FSIs remain in efficient working order at all times. The FSD administers a framework that “clearly delineates responsibilities amongst the regulator, accredited contractors, and building owners or their agents” 75 [WS1/104]. The framework operates through three principal legislative instruments: section 16(1)(b) of the BO, which requires buildings to be provided with the minimum FSIs required for their intended use; the Fire Service (Installation Contractors) Regulations (Cap. 95A), which empowers the DFS to regulate the conduct of RFSICs; and the Fire Service (Installations and Equipment) Regulations (Cap. 95B), which empowers the DFS to control the installation, repair, maintenance and inspection of FSIs76 [WS1/104].

  1. The regulatory model distinguishes between passive fire safety provisions and

active fire safety provisions. As AD Keung and AD Yung of the FSD confirmed, to achieve the fire safety objective, there shall be active and passive fire safety provisions within every building77 [WS1/91, 104]. Reference can be made to the BD’s Code of Practice for Fire Safety in Building 2011 (2024 Edition) (“FS

75 KEUNG Sai Ming 1st WS §5.2 76 KEUNG Sai Ming 1st WS §5.3 77 YUNG Kam Hung 1st WS §6; KEUNG Sai Ming 1st WS §5.1

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Code”) [J1-2/3983], which recognises the distinction between passive and active fire safety provisions. 201.1. Passive fire safety provisions [J1-2/4008] “means permanent building features and architectural aspects of a building that prevent fire development and spread. Examples include required staircases, fire rated doors, spandrels, fire barriers, linings with low combustibility etc.” 201.2. Active fire safety provisions in turn concern FSIs and equipment (FAS, FH/HR System, sprinkler systems, fire detection systems, smoke extraction systems and the like), which fall primarily under the regulatory control of the FSD.

  1. AD Yung of FSD confirmed this division in both his witness statement and oral

evidence. His witness statement states that “From a technical perspective, fire safety in buildings can be divided into two main categories: ‘active fire safety provisions’ and ‘passive fire safety provisions’, both of which work together to ensure safety. In fact, it is clearly stated in the ‘Code of Practice for Fire Safety in Buildings 2011’ issued by the BD that fire safety provisions include active fire safety provisions and passive fire safety provisions” 78 [WS1/91]. In oral evidence, AD Yung confirmed that the FSD is responsible for regulating active fire safety provisions, while passive fire safety provisions fall primarily under the BD (and, for WFC, the ICU): “For these passive provisions or facilities, they would have a clear division of labour with the BD or the ICU. As I say in my witness statement, we focus on the active part” [Day 17/11/11-14]. AD Yung explained that the rationale for this division of work is to ensure that the most appropriate department with the relevant professional expertise handles the matter. As he put it, “It is because we need to have the most appropriate department to deal with

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it” [Day 17/41/6-7], elaborating that the BA has the professional expertise and oversight over construction practices, and the FSD lacks the expertise to determine whether certain construction arrangements (such as access openings) are warranted as part of the works, “They have the professional expertise and we need to look at the practice” [Day 17/43/15-16].

  1. Notwithstanding the above distinction as a matter of technical demarcation and

internal division of labour in general, however, AD Yung readily confirmed, that the FSD’s remit “goes beyond just active provisions” under section 7(c) of the FSO, which imposes a duty to give “advice on fire protection measures and fire hazards as occasion requires” [Day 17/9/17 - 10/1] [B2/82]. The definition of “fire hazard” under section 2 of the FSO (Cap. 95) is broad, encompassing “matter or circumstances which materially increases the likelihood of fire or other calamity or the danger to life or property” [Day 17/10/6-13] [B2/77].

  1. Under Regulation 8 of Cap. 95B [B2/177], the owner of any FSI has a legal

responsibility to keep such installation or equipment in efficient working order at all times, and shall arrange for inspection by an RFSIC at least once every 12 months. The FSD monitors compliance with this responsibility through the FS251 certificate mechanism and through visits and inspections conducted on a risk- based and complaint-driven basis. (ii) The Government’s supervisory role - the BD and FSD (1) Passive FSI

  1. The BD is generally the authority responsible for regulating the design and

construction of passive fire safety measures in private buildings. These include the design and construction of exit staircases, smoke lobbies, corridors, compartmentation, fire resisting ratings of fire barriers (walls, doors and fixed

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lights), and the design and construction of emergency vehicular access (“EVA”) and means of access for firefighting and rescue79 [WS1/807].

  1. The relevant statutory provisions, among others, are found in (1) Part V of the

Building (Planning) Regulations (Cap. 123F) (“B(P)R”) [J1-1/46-55], which e.g. provides for the provision of means of escape in case of fire (regulations 39 to 41) and means of access for firefighting and rescue (regulations 41A to 41D); and (2) Part 10 of the Building (Construction) Regulation (Cap. 123Q) (“B(C)R”) [J1- 2/5751], under which a building must be designed and constructed so as to inhibit the spread of fire within the building and to buildings nearby, provide adequate resistance to the spread of fire and smoke, maintain the stability of the building to allow adequate time for safe evacuation, rescue and firefighting, and avoid consequential damage to buildings nearby; as well as (3) section 16 of the B(C)R [J1-2/5735-5736], which requires that in carrying out building works or street works, appropriate construction methods and procedures must be adopted and appropriate precautionary measures must be taken. Section 16 is a provision of general application that governs not only the permanent design and construction of fire safety elements but also the manner in which works are carried out, including the precautionary measures that must be in place during the course of renovation to protect building occupants and the public from fire risk.

  1. The FS Code, published by the BD, provides the detailed prescriptive

requirements deemed to comply with the statutory requirements of the B(P)R and B(C)R. Parts B and C of the FS Code outline the prescriptive requirements on provision of means of escape and fire resisting construction of buildings respectively. Clause F5.6 of the FS Code [J1-2/4169-4170] stipulates that when carrying out alterations, additions, renovations and repair works, certain major fire safety requirements must be observed, including: all means of escape should

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be maintained at all times; alternative measures for ensuring adequate standard of fire safety should be provided if any means of escape, fire rated doors, fire barriers have to be temporarily removed; any inflammable and combustible materials should be stored under safe custody and accumulation in excessive quantity should be avoided.

  1. For buildings under the purview of the ICU (such as WFC, a sold HOS estate),

the BD’s regulatory functions with respect to passive fire safety measures are now exercised by the ICU under delegated authority. The nature and effect of this delegation arrangement is addressed in Section E4 above. It bears reiteration that WFC was constructed at a time when it was exempt from the provisions of the BO by virtue of section 41(1)(aa), as a building upon land vested in the HA. WFC was therefore not required to comply with the BO, its subsidiary legislation, or the relevant codes of practice and guidelines at the time of its design and construction (although they were in fact complied with on a voluntary basis). (2) Active FSI and their maintenance

  1. The FSD is the authority responsible for regulating active fire safety measures

involving FSIs and equipment. Active FSIs include FAS, FH/HR System, sprinkler systems, emergency lighting, fire detection systems, smoke extraction systems, staircase pressurisation systems, dry riser systems and water spray systems.

  1. Under section 21(6)(d) of the BO [B2/340], the BD will not issue an occupation

permit unless the DFS certifies that the required FSIs shown on the vetted building plans have been properly installed and are up to the required standard. Thereafter, the primary monitoring mechanism for the continued operability of FSIs is the mandatory FS251 certificate. Under Regulation 9(1) of Cap. 95B [B2/179], whenever an RFSIC installs, maintains, repairs or inspects any FSI, it

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must within 14 days after completion of the work issue a certificate to the person on whose instructions the work was undertaken and forward a copy to the DFS. The certificate must state the address, a description of the FSI concerned, the date of completion, the nature of the work, and whether the FSI is in efficient working order.

  1. The FSD monitors RFSIC performance through an audit-check mechanism

comprising three distinct activities: document review of FS251 certificates submitted by RFSICs to ensure compliance with statutory requirements; verification inspection to verify accuracy of the FS251 certificate; and functional test of FSI to ensure its efficient working order80 [WS1/107]. The FSD conducts proactive audit checks on a percentage of submitted FS251 certificates. For certificates indicating no defects, the local fire stations would also conduct a significant number of on-site verification inspections annually. Throughout the process, any defects or discrepancies identified are followed up, and instances of non-compliance or misconduct by RFSICs may be uncovered81 [WS1/107].

  1. Where FSIs are found defective and major defects are reported via FS251, the

local fire station visits the affected premises within 24 hours [B2/2191], conducts an on-site risk assessment for further formulation of contingency plan, issues an advisory letter to the FSI owner requiring provision of standby means and expedited rectification, and monitors compliance through a 72-hour re- inspection82 [WS1/115].

  1. In general, visits and inspections to a domestic estate such as WFC by various

units of the FSD are initiated from three aspects: fire hazard complaints, FSI-

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related visits and inspections, and proactive visits by local fire stations under the Risk-based Building Fire Safety Visit Programme83 [WS1/115].

  1. Between July 2024 and November 2025, the FSD conducted a total of 26

visits/inspections at WFC: 18 FSI-related visits/inspections (6 relating to defective installations and 12 relating to shutdowns), 7 complaint inspections (2 relating to EVA, 3 relating to means of escape, and 2 relating to other matters), and 1 proactive visit84 [WS1/116-118]. (3) The RFSICs

  1. The RFSIC registration system is governed by Cap. 95A. Three classes of

RFSICs are designated: Class 1 (for any FSI containing an electrical circuit or other apparatus for the detection and warning of smoke or fire); Class 2 (for any FSI containing pipes and fittings designed to carry water or some other fire extinguishing medium, or any type of electrical apparatus other than those in Class 1); and Class 3 (for any portable equipment)85 [WS1/105]. During the registration process, applicants and their proposed qualified persons must produce supporting documents, participate in an interview, and undergo a workshop inspection demonstrating the use of required equipment86 [WS1/105].

  1. For RFSICs who violate regulations, the FSD will initiate investigations,

prosecute the RFSICs concerned, and refer matters to the Registered Fire Service Installation Contractors Disciplinary Board for inquiry, with the maximum punishment being removal from the register 87[WS1/107]. The FSD mainly prosecutes RFSICs in breach of Regulation 9(1) (failing to issue the certificate), Regulation 9(2A) (signing a false or misleading certificate), and Regulation

83 KEUNG Sai Ming 1st WS §7.1.4 84 KEUNG Sai Ming 1st WS §7.2 85 KEUNG Sai Ming 1st WS §5.4.1 86 KEUNG Sai Ming 1st WS §5.4.1 87 KEUNG Sai Ming 1st WS §5.4.3

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9(3)(b) (issuing or forwarding a false or misleading certificate) of Cap. 95B88 [WS1/107] [B2/179].

  1. The FSD also operates a Demerit Points System for RFSICs. Under this system,

inspection levels are determined based on the accumulation of points. RFSICs prosecuted for violating ordinances or punished by the Disciplinary Board are assigned demerit points, as is a finding of non-compliance during an on-site inspection. RFSICs with higher accumulated points are subject to more on-site inspections and proactive audit functional tests89 [WS1/108]. (iii) The other stakeholders’ responsibilities – owners, the PMC and RFSICs

  1. The entire FSI regulatory regime involves responsibilities from multiple parties:

the owners and OC as the owners of FSIs with the ultimate responsibility to ensure that FSIs are in efficient working order at all times, the RFSICs engaged by owners (or other contractors in turn) as the party responsible for maintenance and execution of works over FSIs, and the FSD as the regulator. According to Regulation 8 of Cap. 95B [B2/177], the owner must have such installations inspected by an RFSIC at least once every 12 months. Where no FS251 has been received, it is a prima facie case of non-compliance by the owners, and the FSD will take necessary enforcement actions90 [WS1/109].

  1. The PMC, according to the Property Management Services Ordinance (Cap. 626)

and its Code of Conduct, has a responsibility to assist the OC in fulfilling these duties, including monitoring the progress of the RFSIC’s work, following up timely with the RFSIC on required rectifications, following up timely with the

88 KEUNG Sai Ming 1st WS §5.4.3 89 KEUNG Sai Ming 1st WS §5.4.4 90 KEUNG Sai Ming 1st WS §5.5.2

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RFSIC that it has to notify the DFS of any FSI shutdowns, and assisting FSD officers during visits, inspections or investigations91 [WS1/109].

  1. The RFSIC engaged by the owner bears the professional responsibility for the

proper execution of FSI maintenance, inspection and repair. Under Cap. 95B, only an RFSIC shall maintain, inspect or repair any FSI required to be installed in premises. It is the RFSIC’s obligation to inspect the FSI, to assess the need for shutdown, to notify the FSD via an SDN where shutdown is required, to carry out or supervise the repair works, and to certify completion via FS251. Where an RFSIC issues a certificate which is false or misleading in any material particular, it commits an offence under Regulation 9(2A) and 9(3) of Cap. 95B [B2/180].

  1. The evidence before the Committee demonstrates that at WFC, both RFSICs

engaged (albeit for different purposes) failed in their primary responsibilities, the PMC (ISS) failed in its duty to coordinate between the two RFSICs and to ensure FSI operability, and the contractor (Prestige), consultant (Will Power) and RI (Ng Yeuk) failed in their responsibility to oversee and ensure that renovation and maintenance works over FSIs were conducted only by an RFSIC. These failures are a direct and proximate cause of the FAS shutdown and are addressed in detail in Section N. F5. Regulation and supervision of construction methods, procedures and use of materials under the MBIS and MWCS (i) The regulatory framework and model (1) The MBIS

  1. The MBIS, introduced under the BO in 2012, applies to private buildings aged

30 years or above (except domestic buildings not exceeding three storeys in height). Under the MBIS, building owners served with a statutory notice are

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required to appoint an RI to carry out prescribed inspection and an RC to carry out any necessary rectification and repair works under the supervision of the RI.

  1. The building elements to be covered under the MBIS prescribed inspection are

clearly defined: external elements and other physical elements; structural elements; fire safety elements; drainage system; and identification of unauthorised building works in common parts of the building, on the exterior other than the common parts, or on the street on which the building fronts or abuts92 [WS1/780].

  1. A critical feature of the MBIS is that inspection does not necessarily lead to major

building repairs. Whether repair works are required, and if so, their extent, will be dependent on the outcome of the inspection as set out in the report submitted to the BA by the RI. The majority of prescribed repair works carried out under the MBIS should be MW or exempted building works under section 41 of the BO, and the repair proposal normally does not require the BA’s approval or consent before commencement of work.

  1. Under the MBIS regime, the ICU (for buildings under its statutory control, such

as WFC) conducts audit checks on the relevant submissions made by the RI at two points in time: upon completion and submission of the Inspection Report (Form MBI 3), and upon submission of the Completion Report after completion of the prescribed repair works (Form MBI 4) 93 [WS14/2128]. There is no statutory requirement for the ICU to supervise and conduct regular or ad hoc inspections of works during the course of inspection and renovation works.

  1. Under the MBIS, the ICU conducts preliminary check (verification of RI

registration status), fundamental check (ensuring reports and proposals have been

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duly completed and signed), and audit check (document audit and site audit on randomly sampled cases)94 [WS1/631-634].

  1. Specifically for audit check, it consists of document audit and site audit. For each

month, 16 cases are sampled for audit check; of the cases sampled for document audit, one-third further proceed to site audit95 [WS1/632-633]. (2) The MWCS

  1. For repair works that are relatively smaller in scale, less complex and of lower

risk, the works may follow the simplified procedures under MWCS introduced in 2010 without the need to obtain prior approval of plans and consent for commencement of works from the BA. There are currently 187 items of building works designated as MW under Part 3 of Schedule 1 to the Building (Minor Works) Regulation (Cap. 123N) (“B(MW)R”), classified into three classes according to their scale, complexity and risk to safety96 [WS1/656-658].

  1. For Class I MW, both Prescribed Building Professionals (“PBPs”) and Prescribed

Registered Contractors (“PRCs”) are required to be appointed, and they are required to submit notifications, plans and documents before commencement and after completion of works. For Class II MW, only a PRC is required who should also submit notifications, plans and documents before commencement and after completion of works. For Class III MW, only a PRC is required and submissions are made after completion rather than before commencement.

  1. As expressly stated as background in the BD’s manual on MW [J1-2/5139], “the

Minor Works Control System (MWCS) is a self regulatory system”. The spirit of the MWCS primarily relies on self-regulation of the construction industry’s

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professionals for its implementation, having regard to the relevant background and context.

  1. Under the MWCS, the PBPs and PRCs are required to supervise the carrying out

of MW, notify BA of any contraventions of the regulations which would result from the carrying out of MW, and comply with the BO. Sections 42 and 43 of the B(MW)R set out the duties of the PBPs and PRCs: they must give periodical and continuous supervision to ensure that there is no material divergence or deviation from the prescribed plans and details submitted, and are responsible for ensuring the works are carried out in accordance with the BO. (ii) The Government’s supervisory role

  1. The Government’s supervisory role in relation to construction methods,

procedures and use of materials operates at different intensities depending on the nature and risk level of the works.

  1. For works requiring the BA’s prior approval and consent (new buildings, A&A

and demolition works), the BD scrutinises and approves building plans, grants consent to commencement, conducts periodic surprise site inspections during construction, and inspects the completed works before issuing an occupation permit97 [WS1/715-716]. The BD regularly carries out inspections and audit checks to building works sites on a risk basis; high-risk activities such as demolition works are inspected every one to three weeks, while superstructure works are inspected every eight to sixteen weeks98 [WS1/718-719].

  1. For repair works under the MBIS, the Government’s supervisory role is exercised

through the audit-check mechanism described above. As confirmed by the BD, the submitted certificates on completion of prescribed building inspection or

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repair by RIs are sampled for audit checks comprising document audit and site audit, carried out in accordance with the MBI Manual99 [WS1/798]. The BD has adopted the ISO-2859-1 “Sampling Procedures for Inspection by Attributes” to guide the selection of MBIS submissions for audit checks, requiring successfully conducting a minimum of 315 samples of submissions in order to achieve an acceptable level of quality control over RIs’ and RCs’ performance under the BO100 [WS1/800].

  1. The ICU adopts the same ISO-based standard in determining the number of cases

selected for audit checks. As Lau Fu-kwok explained, the ICU’s practice of selecting 16 submissions per month for audit check was originally derived from the BD’s ISO-based ratio, applied pro rata to the ICU’s caseload; and for the final work audit check (approximately 1,725 cases per year), this was likewise based on the BD’s standards set on the basis of ISO, representing approximately one- fourth of the total caseload [Day 24/78/12 - 80/4].

  1. The degree of pre-works checking, audit checking during the course of works,

post-works checks and handling of complaints differs between the approval-and- consent system, the MBIS and MWCS. For the MWCS in particular, the simplified procedures mean that the BA does not vet, approve or consent to the works before they commence; its supervisory role is generally exercised before the commencement of works and after the completion of works through random audit sampling. Under the MBIS, no regular inspections during the course of works are required; site inspections would generally be arranged in response to complaints or enquiries. This design reflects the self-regulatory nature of the system, which places primary reliance on the registered professionals for supervision and compliance during the works period.

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under the BO. No plan submission for prior approval and consent by the ICU was required. The ICU’s supervisory role during the renovation under the MWCS was therefore limited to: processing MW submissions and conducting audit checks on those randomly selected; handling complaints and enquiries as they arose; and conducting site inspections in response to those complaints. Thus, for professionals who are minded to abuse or circumvent the systems, their proneness to abuse and the opportunity for such abuse exists from the very commencement of works. (iii) The other stakeholders’ responsibilities – owners, the PMC and building professionals

and materials comply with the BO rests with the PBPs and RCs. Under section 30D(4) of the BO, an RI appointed under the MBIS is responsible for providing proper supervision of the carrying out of the prescribed repair, ensuring that the repair materials to be used are not defective and comply with all relevant Ordinances and Regulations, codes of practice and practice notes, and ensuring the building is safe or has been rendered safe101 [WS14/2128].

in building works must be of a nature and quality suitable for their intended use, adequately tested by recognised tests, and appropriate construction methods and procedures must be adopted with appropriate precautionary measures taken. The PBPs and RCs are required to ensure that protective materials meeting the required standards are used in building works. 101 KU Siu Ping 3rd WS §4

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the Mandatory Window Inspection Scheme [J1-2/4746-4970], the RI and RC each has a role to play in safety and quality management during the course of rectification and repair works. The supervision and control to be exercised by RIs and RCs during the course of works shall cover adequate measures to ensure a safe working environment and adequate control on the sequence of rectification and repair works, the erection and maintenance of scaffolds. RIs and RCs “should fully understand the potential fire risks involved in the course of repair works and adopt appropriate precautionary measures accordingly in carrying out the works”102 [WS1/797].

the RI bore primary statutory responsibility for supervising the repair works and ensuring that materials and methods complied with the BO. Prestige (as RC) bore primary responsibility for carrying out the works in compliance with the BO and for ensuring that the part of the building for which it was appointed was rendered safe. The said parties were required to certify completion of works in compliance with the BO. The failures of such parties in these primary responsibilities are the central subject of Sections I through N below. F6. Regulation and supervision of building professionals – registered inspectors (i.e. RI) under the MBIS and registered contractors (i.e. RC) for carrying out works (i) The regulatory framework and model

control through which only suitably qualified professionals and contractors may undertake building works. The primary aim is to ensure that only competent professionals and contractors take up the roles, duties and obligations to prepare 102 CHEUNG Yuk Ching 1st WS §55

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plans, supervise, carry out and certify building works in accordance with the BO103 [WS1/709].

  1. The RI registration system under the BO permits registration of persons holding

the qualification of Authorised Person (“AP”), Registered Structural Engineer (“RSE”), Registered Architect, Registered Professional Engineer in specified disciplines, or Registered Professional Surveyor in specified divisions, provided they also possess the relevant practical experience in building construction, repair and maintenance104 [WS1/747-749]. It bears emphasis that the aforesaid persons are already subject to the registration requirements applicable to their professions as appropriate to begin with. Leaving that aside, for applicants who are not AP or RSE, they must attend an interview conducted by the Inspectors Registration Committee under section 3(5CB) of the BO, which examines qualifications and experience and advises the BA whether to accept, defer or reject the application.

  1. Registration for an RI is valid for five years. To renew registration, the RI must

apply within the time limits specified in section 3(9C)(b) of the BO. The BA shall refuse renewal unless the applicant continues to possess the necessary qualifications105 [WS1/750].

  1. For RCs, applicants must satisfy the BA as to the adequacy of their management

structure (if a corporation), the appropriate experience and qualifications of their personnel, their ability to have access to plant and resources, and the ability of the person appointed to act for the applicant to understand building works through relevant experience and a general knowledge of basic statutory requirements106 [WS1/754]. Applications are referred to a Contractors Registration Committee

103 PANG Yuk Lung 1st WS §9 104 PANG Yuk Lung 1st WS §§84-89 105 PANG Yuk Lung 1st WS §§91-92 106 PANG Yuk Lung 1st WS §106

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(“CRC”) for interview and assessment107 [WS1/752]. The validity period for registration is three years108 [WS1/756].

  1. The model therefore relies on a well-defined registration system serving as the

gatekeeper for professional competence, combined with statutory obligations during works, certification upon completion, random audit checking by the BA, and sanctions (prosecution, disciplinary action, or refusal of renewal) for non- compliance. However, the model’s gatekeeping role cannot be conflated with the primary responsibilities which rest on qualified professionals at all times. (ii) The Government’s supervisory role

  1. The BA’s supervisory role over registered professionals and contractors operates

through four mechanisms: the registration and renewal process itself (which serves as a periodic competence check); the audit-check system (which tests whether professionals are properly discharging their duties in the actual cases); the prosecution mechanism (for contraventions of the BO identified through audit checks, complaints or investigations); and the disciplinary mechanism (for misconduct or negligence rendering a professional unfit to remain on the register)109 [WS1/709-711, 721-723].

  1. On renewal of registration, the BD retrieves conviction, disciplinary and

suspension records covering the three years preceding the application date (or the current registration period preceding the date of submission of the renewal application). Where such records exist, the application is referred to the relevant registration committee for interview and assessment, and the BA may refuse

107 PANG Yuk Lung 1st WS §100 108 PANG Yuk Lung 1st WS §111 109 PANG Yuk Lung 1st WS §§8-10, 28-31

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renewal if satisfied that the contractor is no longer suitable for registration110 [WS1/756, 758-759].

  1. If PBPs or RCs are convicted of an offence relating to their professional duties or

building works respectively, or have failed to discharge the duties or abide by the imposed requirements under the BO, or have been negligent or have misconducted themselves, the BD may instigate disciplinary action by referring the case to the relevant disciplinary board set up under the BO. The board may order permanent or temporary removal from the register, a reprimand, or a fine of up to $250,000. From 2021 to November 2025, a total of 75 cases were referred to disciplinary boards for proceedings111 [WS1/722-723].

  1. Under the existing delegation arrangements, the ICU does not possess the

delegated authority to initiate prosecution of offences under section 40 of the BO or administrative disciplinary actions against RIs and RCs under sections 7 and 13 of the BO; those powers remain vested with the BD. If the ICU identifies any non-compliance of the BO, it refers the relevant cases to the BD for assessment of prosecution and disciplinary actions112 [WS1/607]. Between 2006 and 2025, the ICU referred 852 cases to the BD for prosecution, resulting in a total of 1,064 summonses 113 [WS1/745]. Five cases were referred for disciplinary action between 2023 and 2025114 [WS1/746].

  1. In the case of WFC, the RI appointed for the renovation was Ng Yeuk of Will

Power. He was included in the register of RI on 31 May 2019 by virtue of being

110 PANG Yuk Lung 1st WS §§111-112, 117-121 111 PANG Yuk Lung 1st WS §30-31 112 LAU Fu Kwok 1st WS §15 113 PANG Yuk Lung 1st WS §80 114 PANG Yuk Lung 1st WS §81

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an AP, and his registration was renewed on 22 March 2024 with expiry on 31 May 2029115 [WS1/761-762].

  1. Prestige was first registered as a Registered General Building Contractor

(“RGBC”) on 24 March 2006. In August 2023, it was disciplined under the BO for misconduct in building works, resulting in a fine of $50,000 and a four-month prohibition from certifying or undertaking any MW116 [WS1/762-763]. After Prestige’s application for renewal in December 2023, the AS who had been involved in the disciplinary matter failed the CRC interview on 6 March 2024; but since another AS with a clean record remained acting for Prestige, the renewal was granted on 21 March 2024 with the failed AS removed117 [WS1/763-764]. AD Karen Cheung of the BD confirmed in oral evidence that Prestige no longer holds any licence under the BD, as the relevant AS has since resigned.118

  1. Prestige had also previously been registered as a Registered Minor Works

Contractor (“RMWC”) (since 8 August 2013). During its application for renewal in May 2019, its AS was required to attend a CRC interview because of a record of 14 convictions on labour safety offences and 7 warning letters issued by the BD; the AS failed the interview and the application was refused, resulting in Prestige’s removal from the RMWC register on 4 October 2019119 [WS1/764].

  1. The evidence therefore demonstrates that the registration system did subject

Prestige to enhanced scrutiny at the point of renewal, and that on one occasion the renewal was refused. The broader question of whether the system could be

115 PANG Yuk Lung 1st WS §§126-129 116 PANG Yuk Lung 1st WS §130 117 PANG Yuk Lung 1st WS §131 118 [Day 20/10/24 (Chinese transcript; not reflected in the English transcript)] 119 PANG Yuk Lung 1st WS §132

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enhanced to better inform owners of contractors’ disciplinary histories is a systemic issue addressed in Section Q below. F7. Regulation and supervision of occupational health and safety (i) The regulatory framework and model

  1. The LD is responsible for administering and enforcing the OSHO and FIUO and

their subsidiary legislation.

  1. The LD’s primary mandate is to safeguard the occupational safety and health

(“OSH”) of employees at work. The professional expertise of the LD is in OSH120 [WS1/312-313, 325].

  1. The OSHO [D1/5-83] provides safety and health protection for employees in both

industrial and non-industrial workplaces, covering almost all workplaces including construction sites. The FIUO [D1/84-132] provides safety and health protection for workers in the industrial sectors, including construction works, and its subsidiary legislation includes the Construction Sites (Safety) Regulations (Cap. 59I) (“CSSR”) [D1/133-204] and the Factories and Industrial Undertakings (Safety Management) Regulation (Cap. 59AF).

  1. The general duty provisions of the legislation impose on employers (including

principal contractors) the obligation, so far as reasonably practicable, to ensure the safety and health at work of all their employees. This encompasses the provision and maintenance of safe plant and systems of work, the provision of information, instruction, training and supervision, and the maintenance of a working environment that is safe and without risks to health121 [WS1/315].

120 YUEN Tsz Lok, Murphy (Chief OSO, LD) §§6-7, 39 121 YUEN Tsz Lok 1st WS §12

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(“RMAA”) works to existing buildings, the OSHO, FIUO and their subsidiary legislation (in particular the CSSR) are applicable to the protection of construction workers’ safety and health at work122 [WS1/315].

Regulations 53 and 54 of the CSSR [D1/186]. 260.1. Regulation 53 empowers the Commissioner for Labour to issue a written order prohibiting smoking and the use of naked lights at a construction site where any flammable liquid or any mixture containing such liquid or any substance or thing involving danger from fire is used or intended to be used. 260.2. Regulation 54(1) requires the contractor responsible for a construction site to maintain in good condition and free from obstruction all the means of escape in case of fire and all fire-fighting appliances. The penalties for non- compliance are a maximum fine of $400,000 for a contractor and $150,000 for a worker. (ii) The Government’s supervisory role

(“OSOs”) are surprise inspections. No prior notice is given to renovation contractors, RIs or building management. This has long been a well-established practice 123 [WS13/2107-2018]; an internal LD email of 4 December 2024 reminded all divisional officers that “inspections of workplaces shall be surprise in nature. No inspection schedules shall be disclosed to any third party, including consultants, in advance” [D2/1981]. 122 YUEN Tsz Lok 1st WS §13 123 LAM Sau Ching 2nd WS §§5-6

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principles. Taking into account the nature and risk levels of work processes and scale of works, the inspection frequency is generally set at one to two months124 [WS1/338; Day 16/3/19-23]. OSOs conduct complaint investigations as soon as possible; even if a construction site is not yet due for inspection according to schedule, OSOs will advance the next site visit upon receiving OSH complaints 125 [WS1/338].

improvement notices and written warnings (by way of Construction Site Inspection Reports (“CSIRs”)). Officers exercise professional judgement, discretion and common sense in selecting the appropriate response based on the gravity of the offence.

readiness and proper use of fall arresting systems; competencies of workers engaging in scaffolding works; access to and egress from scaffolds; suitability and adequacy of planks to form working platforms; conditions of scaffolds and their scaffolding members; provision of catch-fans with suitable receptacle and nettings; and proper maintenance and inspection of scaffolds by competent persons 126 [WS1/339-340]. The focus is on the safety of workers at work; properties of construction materials used at the site (such as foam boards) are not the main focus of OSH inspections127 [WS1/332]. 124 LI Man Pong (Senior Div. OSO, LD) 1st WS §22 125 LI Man Pong 1st WS §22 126 LI Man Pong 1st WS §25 127 LI Man Pong 1st WS §7

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(iii) The other stakeholders’ responsibilities – owners, the PMC and building professionals

  1. Under section 6A of the FIUO and section 6(1) of the OSHO, the employer

(including the principal contractor) must, so far as reasonably practicable, ensure the safety and health at work of all the employer’s employees. Every employer must provide and maintain plant and systems of work that are safe and without risks to health, and must provide such information, instruction, training and supervision as may be necessary.

  1. In the case of WFC, Prestige bore the primary statutory duty as the principal

contractor to ensure the safety and health of its employees and others on site. This duty encompassed the provision of safe systems of work, provision of safety equipment, maintenance of scaffolding in safe condition, and management of fire risks at the construction site. The Factories and Industrial Undertakings (Safety Management) Regulation (Cap. 59AF) required Prestige as a specified contractor to develop, implement and maintain a safety management system containing an element of emergency preparedness.

  1. The PMC and building professionals also bear responsibilities. In occupied

buildings where construction works are carried out, the BD and FSD are the authorities responsible for enforcing fire safety construction aspects and FSIs which form common parts of the building, in accordance with the BO and Fire Safety (Buildings) Ordinance. The LD’s jurisdiction is directed at the safety of workers, while the BD and FSD are responsible for the safety of occupants in relation to passive and active fire safety provisions. This jurisdictional division is relevant to understanding the respective departments’ approaches to the contributing factors addressed below.

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PART III: TOR 1 G. THE CAUSES AND ORIGIN OF THE FIRE, SPREAD OF FIRE AND HEAVY CASUALTIES - THE INTER-DEPARTMENTAL FIRE INVESTIGATION TASK FORCE’S GENERAL FINDINGS

  1. The starting point for the Committee’s analysis under the ToR 1 is the work of

the IFITF, which has produced a comprehensive Final Investigation Report setting out the cause and origin of the fire, the mechanisms of its rapid spread, and the factors that contributed to the heavy casualties. This section summarises the IFITF’s general findings; the analysis of each contributing factor, and the establishment of causation for each factor, are addressed in Sections I to N below. G1. A brief chronology of the fire with all of the factors contributing to the fire, spread of fire and heavy casualties summed up

  1. The fire at WFC was first reported to the FSCC at 1451 hours on 26 November
  2. The caller reported “a fire with explosion occurred at scaffolding installed

along the external wall of Wang Cheong House” (IFITF Report §1.1.1, fn 1 [ER1/13]). A full No. 1 Alarm Fire Pre-determined Attendance (“PDA”), together with additional fire appliances dispatched in response to the renovation works and defective FSIs, was immediately mobilised.

  1. The evidence establishes, however, that the fire started earlier than 1451 hours.

CCTV footage captured embers falling onto the bicycle parking area of Wang Cheong House at approximately 1443 hours (IFITF Report §5.1.2 [ER1/40]). The IFITF concluded that the fire “started earlier, likely between 1430 hours and 1443 hours” and that “despite extensive efforts, the exact time of the fire’s occurrence could not be definitively determined” (IFITF Report §5.1.8 [ER1/41]).

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first emergency call may critically affect the stage at which firefighting operations can commence and, consequently, the prospects of limiting further fire spread” (IFITF Report §5.1.7 [ER1/41]). The significance of this observation lies in its illustration of the extreme rapidity of fire development: by the time the first fire appliance arrived at 1456 hours, the fire was already of substantial scale.

was extraordinary. Within approximately 20 minutes of the FSD’s arrival at the scene, the fire had spread from its point of origin on the flat roof of Wang Cheong House to multiple locations, including “the open ground surrounding Wang Cheong House, multiple façades of the building and different re-entrant spaces,” and had “progressed across buildings, reaching Wang Tai House and its re- entrant areas” (IFITF Report §5.2.3.6 [ER1/54]). The situation was “further exacerbated by flying scaffolding debris falling from the building, which blocked entrances and significantly obstructed firefighting efforts” (IFITF Report §5.2.3.6 [ER1/54]).

vertical fire spread across 6 of the 8 buildings at WFC (IFITF Report §8.7.2 [ER1/175]). A total of 1,736 flats were assessed, of which the interiors of 924 flats sustained varying degrees of fire damage (IFITF Report §5.3.1 [ER1/62]) (subject to the qualifications at §§436-437 below).

control at 0315 hours on 28 November 2025, and largely extinguished at 1018 hours on 28 November 2025 (IFITF Report §1.1.5 [ER1/13]). 106

Services member, namely Senior Fireman Ho Wai-ho (“SFn Ho”)128. Over 100 persons were rescued by the FSD during the operation (IFITF Report §1.1.5 [ER1/13]).

fatalities and injuries (IFITF Report §1.5.1 [ER1/15]). These are: 276.1. First, rapid and extensive fire spread driven by a combination of factors, which left residents with limited time to evacuate and increased the risk of entrapment; 276.2. Second, fire-damaged combustible envelope blocking exits; 276.3. Third, failure of fire alarms; 276.4. Fourth, polystyrene window covers obstructing residents’ awareness and contributing to fire spread; and 276.5. Fifth, compromised tenability in the means of escape.

responsibilities attaching to them, are addressed in detail in Sections I to N below. 128 SFn Ho was at the time of the WFC fire performing the duties of a Fireman (Fn), but he was posthumously awarded the honorary title of Senior Fireman in recognition of his outstanding service and selfless dedication to duty by the FSD.

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G2. The Inter-departmental Fire Investigation Task Force

  1. Due to the severity of the fire damage and large number of casualties and fatalities,

the IFITF was established on 28 November 2025 to investigate the incident (IFITF Report §2.1.1 [ER1/16]).

  1. The IFITF comprises representatives from the FSD, Police, BD, EMSD, ICU

under the HD, LD, and Government Laboratory, as well as fire engineering professionals (IFITF Report §2.1.2 [ER1/16]). The inclusion of an independent fire engineering professional, Prof Yuen Kwok-kit, Richard, together with the Government Laboratory’s independent analytical capability, ensured that the IFITF’s technical findings were subject to independent scientific scrutiny.

  1. The IFITF’s terms of reference focused on two primary objectives: investigating

the cause of the fire and how it spread, and determining the factors that led to heavy casualties (IFITF Report §2.3.1 [ER1/17]).

  1. The investigation was conducted with reference to international standards,

including XF/T 812-2008 and the National Fire Protection Association 921 “Guide for Fire and Explosion Investigations,” encompassing scene examination, evidence collection, witness interviews, and laboratory and expert analysis (IFITF Report §3.1.1 [ER1/18]). Collected samples were submitted to accredited laboratories for chemical analysis, material testing and combustion property testing. Bench-scale experiments, computer simulations and full-scale fire tests were also conducted, and autopsy reports were reviewed (IFITF Report §3.5.1 [ER1/18]). The full-scale fire tests, conducted in Sichuan, represent a notably thorough scientific validation exercise which confirmed the IFITF’s hypotheses regarding the mechanisms of fire spread.

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from that Interim Report have been incorporated into the Final Report. The Government acknowledges that the Report notes it “may require modification” if further information comes to light in other proceedings. G3. The IFITF’s general findings on the cause and origin of the fire

  1. The IFITF concluded that the fire originated from the flat roof outside Flats 104

and 105 of Wang Cheong House (IFITF Report §§1.3.1, 6.1.1 [ER1/14, 73]). Excavations at the suspected point of origin revealed debris up to 2 metres high, consisting of construction materials “such as safety nets, toe-boards, polystyrene window covers, carton paper boxes and backing paper from mosaic tiles” (IFITF Report §1.3.2 [ER1/14]). The accumulation of these combustible materials in the area “could have served as fuel for the fire” (IFITF Report §6.1.6 [ER1/74]).

  1. The IFITF ruled out deliberate acts, electrical faults and gas-related causes.

Neither traces of accelerants nor evidence of suspicious activity immediately prior to the fire were identified at the scene, and accordingly “a deliberate act with the use of accelerant is considered unlikely to be the cause of the fire” (IFITF Report §6.1.2 [ER1/73]). Post-fire inspections conducted by the EMSD “ruled out both electrical faults and Liquefied Petroleum Gas-related causes as potential causes of the fire” (IFITF Report §6.1.5 [ER1/73]).

  1. Two cigarette ends were discovered at the site (IFITF Report §1.3.2 [ER1/14]).

Evidence of smoking at the construction site was widespread: numerous cigarette ends were discovered on the bamboo scaffolding of Wang Chi House; CCTV footage captured construction workers smoking on the roof floor of Wang Cheong House; and at least five occupants of Wang Cheong House had occasionally noticed the smell of smoke or the presence of cigarette butts on the scaffolding (IFITF Report §6.1.8 [ER1/74]). More broadly, 105 out of 2,011

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residents who provided statements and questionnaires reported “witnessing smoking, smelling cigarette smoke or noticing cigarette ends within Wang Fuk Court during the renovation period” (IFITF Report §6.1.8, fn 64 [ER1/74]).

  1. Weather conditions on the day of the fire also materially contributed to the

ignitability of materials at the point of origin. The Hong Kong Observatory issued a Red Fire Danger Warning, with relative humidity levels measuring between 40% and 50% from 1500 to 1800 hours. The IFITF found that these “low humidity levels reduced the moisture content in materials, rendering them more prone to combustion and more conducive to fire spread” and “facilitated the development of smouldering fires, which may initially go unnoticed, but could later develop into open flames” (IFITF Report §6.1.9 [ER1/74]).

  1. Having excluded all other potential sources of ignition, the IFITF was satisfied

that the fire was most likely accidental in nature: “Most probably: A glowing source, such as a lit cigarette end, ignited combustible materials, such as carton paper boxes, at the scene” (IFITF Report §6.1.10 [ER1/75]). The IFITF further observed that “while the windy and dry weather conditions contributed to its development, it was the abundant presence of combustible materials that played a crucial role in allowing the fire to grow in size, intensify and rapidly spread further to other combustibles within the re-entrant” (IFITF Report §8.2.5.3 [ER1/130]).

  1. Prof Yuen confirmed in oral evidence that the fire at WFC necessarily started

small. “When you start a fire, it always starts small. So you always go through the stage when the fire is small” [Day 26/36/7-9]. He further stated: “we have reason to think that when the fire was small, it already ignited other combustible items nearby” [Day 26/36/17-18]. This confirms the IFITF’s finding that the progression from a small glowing source to a catastrophic conflagration was not

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inevitable but was enabled by the presence of (i) sizable amount of combustibles (such as carton boxes) that could be readily ignited by an ignition source (such as a lit cigarette end) and (ii) non-FR materials (such as safety nets and canvas) serving as a vertical plane that allowed the small fire to propagate and escalate to a size sufficient to ignite the bamboo scaffolding within the re-entrant, which represents the bulk (over 80%) of mass but is otherwise relatively difficult to ignite. G4. The IFITF’s general findings on the rapid spread of the fire

  1. The fire development at WFC was, in the IFITF’s assessment, “highly complex,

with the modes of fire spread exhibiting intricate and multifaceted behaviours” (IFITF Report §1.4.1 [ER1/14]).

  1. The IFITF identified three dominant and interconnected modes of fire spread

(IFITF Report §1.4.1 [ER1/14]): 290.1. First, rapid vertical fire spread along the re-entrant, driven by intense heat and flames; 290.2. Second, façade fire turning into interior fires through openings such as windows, exhaust fans or by radiant heat; and 290.3. Third, secondary ignitions via embers, flaming droplets and falling debris.

  1. These hypotheses were confirmed by full-scale fire tests conducted in Sichuan

(IFITF Report §8.5.1 [ER1/174]). The IFITF also made key additional observations regarding (i) the FR properties of safety nets; (ii) the FR properties of canvas; (iii) fire spread into units via radiation ignition; (iv) ignition at ground- level thereby further intensifying the fire and its damage; and (v) the extensive

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nature of the fire spread and involvement of multiple simultaneous outbreaks across numerous indoor units (IFITF Report §8.6 [ER1/174-175]).

  1. A critical structural feature of WFC was the vertical re-entrant between two wings

of each block, extending from the 1st floor to the roof (IFITF Report §4.1.3 [ER1/19]). This chimney-like configuration “naturally channelled rising smoke and hot gases” and “confined and directed their upward movement, allowing the fire to spread rapidly and engulf multiple floors in a short timeframe” (IFITF Report §6.2.1.6 [ER1/80]). A heat release rate study conducted as part of the investigation demonstrated that the re-entrant configuration increased the peak heat release rate to slightly over 3 MW, compared with approximately 1 MW for an open configuration, and “exhibited a significantly faster growth rate” (IFITF Report §7.2.3.2 [ER1/94]).

  1. The re-entrant design dates from 1983 and is therefore a pre-existing structural

condition of the building which amplified the consequences of the combustible loading created by the renovation works.

  1. The re-entrant contained large quantities of accumulated combustible materials

forming a continuous fuel source across multiple levels. These materials included bamboo scaffolding, safety nets, wooden planks, toe-boards, canvas, nylon strips, and polystyrene window covers (IFITF Report §6.2.1.3 [ER1/79]). Amongst these materials, bamboo, safety nets, toe-boards and wooden planks were identified, and the impact of these identified combustibles were evaluated in the fire severity analysis. The fire severity analysis demonstrated that “the fire reached extreme levels of severity even when only the identified materials were included,” with the peak heat release rate for a three-storey mockup reaching 29 MW, “comparable to the peak fire HRR of a bus or heavy goods vehicle in a tunnel fire” (IFITF Report §8.2.4.2 [ER1/128]).

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combustibles beyond those modelled, “the fire severity could have escalated dramatically” (IFITF Report §8.2.4.2 [ER1/128]).

required, bamboo could become a dominant fuel source, contributing nearly 78% of the total energy released, followed by wooden planks at 14%; however, the IFITF found that “other materials, such as safety nets, toe-boards and wooden planks, ignited first due to their relatively lower thermal resistance” (IFITF Report §7.2.3.7 [ER1/95]).

properties as a critical factor in the rapid spread. The IFITF observed that “if these nets were made of FR materials, even if ignited, the fire would likely have self- extinguished after the removal of the heat source, thereby minimizing the risk of igniting other combustible materials and reducing the overall spread of the fire” (IFITF Report §6.2.3.4 [ER1/86]). The “presence of safety nets potentially lacking FR properties, combined with dry and windy conditions created an ideal environment for the fire to spread and for embers to spark additional fires” (IFITF Report §6.2.3.5 [ER1/86]).

  1. 1. The IFITF noted that “the safety nets collected from Wang Chi House

exhibited a more rapid spread, even when compared to Sample 3 (Non-FR) safety nets…the safety nets collected from Wang Chi House were completely consumed by the end of the tests” (IFITF Report §7.2.3.9 [ER1/97]). 113

  1. 2. The IFITF concluded that “the use of safety nets and canvas with FR

properties is essential to effectively prevent the development and spread of fire” (IFITF Report §8.2.6.1 [ER1/130]). 298.3. The IFITF explained that “FR safety nets significantly reduced the likelihood of fire propagation by preventing secondary ignitions and self- extinguishing small fires once the external heat source was removed,” whereas “uncertified, non-FR safety nets and samples collected from Wang Chi House sustained small fire propagation and generated flaming droplets that ignited other combustible scaffolding components, such as nylon strips, toe-boards and wooden planks” (IFITF Report §8.6.1.1 [ER1/174]). 298.4. Computational fluid dynamics simulations demonstrated that in small fire size cases with FR-certified safety nets, “the fire could not sustain itself, with no rapid fire spread having occurred,” whereas with non-FR certified safety nets and samples collected from Wang Chi House, the result was “significant fire spread and severe fire development” (IFITF Report §7.3.5.2 [ER1/125]). 298.5. Dr To Chi-wing (expert witness of the FSD) also confirmed in oral evidence that had FR nets been used, the secondary ignition mechanism that spread the fire to adjacent blocks would likely not have operated [Day 26/71/16 - 72/7].

  1. Canvas lacking FR properties further accelerated the fire.
  2. 1. Laboratory examinations revealed that both types of canvas used at WFC

“were more susceptible to sustained burning after flame impingement than

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the safety nets, with some producing burning droplets” (IFITF Report §6.2.1.8 [ER1/81]). 299.2. The IFITF found that non-FR certified canvas used on catch-fans “allowed small fires in the re-entrant area to escalate into widespread, intense blazes capable of consuming nearly all combustibles and spreading rapidly across multiple levels” (IFITF Report §8.6.2.1 [ER1/174]), and that catch- fans “trapped flying embers, flaming droplets and burning debris” rather than performing their intended function of intercepting falling objects (IFITF Report §8.6.2.2 [ER1/174]).

  1. The fire spread from Wang Cheong House to adjacent blocks through secondary

ignitions caused by wind-carried embers, flaming droplets from melting safety nets, and falling burning debris (IFITF Report §§6.2.3.1–6.2.3.3 [ER1/85]). These mechanisms operated in a combustible environment created by the renovation works: the buildings’ external walls were “surrounded by scaffolding and construction related materials” which “created a combustible ‘envelope’ enclosing the buildings and provided an abundant fuel source for the fire” (IFITF Report §6.2.3.3 [ER1/85]). Within a two-hour period, 11 instances of rapid fire spread were observed at various re-entrants across multiple buildings, and “it is conservatively estimated that more than 470 units were affected by the fire within the two-hour timeframe” (IFITF Report §8.6.5.1 [ER1/175]).

  1. Wind conditions on the day of the fire were an environmental factor beyond

anyone’s control that materially amplified the spread. The average wind speed recorded at the Tai Po Kau Anemometer at 1500 hours was approximately 14 km/hr, blowing from the east to southeast (IFITF Report §7.3.2.1 [ER1/113]). Winds “intensified the fire’s progression by supplying additional oxygen to the

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flames, increasing the fire’s heat and causing it to grow more quickly and uncontrollably” (IFITF Report §6.2.3.7 [ER1/86]).

  1. The wind profile also explains why Wang Chi House was the only unaffected

building: “the wind did not carry embers towards Wang Chi House, which may account for its minimal damage” (IFITF Report §7.3.2.4 [ER1/117]).

  1. The three modes of fire spread were not independent phenomena but “amplified

and promoted the fire’s development through interconnected mechanisms” (IFITF Report §8.7.1 [ER1/175]). Rapid vertical spread along the re-entrant generated intense heat and flames which spread through windows and other openings or in some cases radiation ignition, transforming façade fires into interior fires; interior fires in turn ignited previously unaffected façades through the openings and windows of affected units; and burning fragments from intensifying fires ignited combustibles in nearby re-entrants, initiating new cycles of fire development.

  1. The IFITF characterised this as a self-reinforcing cycle that “made containment

significantly more difficult” (IFITF Report §8.7.2 [ER1/175]). By the conclusion of the incident, this cycle had produced 12 instances of rapid vertical fire spread across 6 buildings (IFITF Report §8.7.2 [ER1/175]). G5. The IFITF’s general findings on the heavy casualties caused by the fire

  1. The 168 fatalities comprised 58 males and 110 females, ranging in age from 6

months to 98 years. Notably, 114 of the fatalities were individuals aged 65 or older (IFITF Report §9.3.1.2 [ER1/195]).

  1. The causes of death were attributed to adverse effects of fire (65), inhalation of

fire fumes (91), inhalation of fire fumes and burns (4), inhalation of fire fumes

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and extensive burns (4), and multiple causes (4) (IFITF Report §9.3.1.3 [ER1/195]).

  1. Of the deceased, 103 were found inside residential units, 64 were discovered in

common areas or on the roof of the affected buildings, and 1 was located on the open ground outside a building (IFITF Report §9.3.1.4 [ER1/196]).

  1. Wang Cheong House and Wang Tai House suffered the highest number of

fatalities, with 81 and 82 lives lost respectively (IFITF Report §9.3.2.1 [ER1/196]).

  1. As mentioned above, the IFITF identified five critical factors that contributed to

the heavy casualties, working in combination to drastically compress the available evacuation window (IFITF Report §10.1.1 [ER1/203]). These are (IFITF Report §11.6 [ER1/239]): 309.1. Increased risk of entrapment due to rapid and extensive fire spread; 309.2. Fire-damaged combustible envelope blocking exits; 309.3. Failure of fire alarms; 309.4. Polystyrene window covers; and 309.5. Compromised tenability in means of escape.

  1. First, the extreme rate of vertical fire spread “left residents with limited time to

react, significantly reducing opportunities for safe evacuation and increasing the likelihood of entrapment” (IFITF Report §10.2.1 [ER1/203]). The IFITF recorded that “from a very early stage, the fire behaviour had already set a critical time pressure on both evacuees and first responders” (IFITF Report

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§10.2.2 [ER1/203]). The evidence of individual residents starkly illustrates how rapidly conditions deteriorated: one resident observed that the common corridor outside her unit was free of smoke when she initially opened her entrance door at approximately 1430 hours, but “upon reopening the door a couple seconds later, she observed that the corridor was filled with dense black smoke” (IFITF Report §10.2.5.1 [ER1/204]).

  1. Second, flaming bamboo scaffolding and other construction materials detached

from the upper levels during the fire, collapsing and accumulating at ground level and “resulting in flaming blockages at building entrances” (IFITF Report §10.3.1 [ER1/208]). As a result, “both escape for evacuees and access for firefighting personnel were obstructed and in turn delaying escape, rescue efforts and fire suppression” (IFITF Report §10.3.1 [ER1/208]). The front entrance and rear exit of Wang Cheong House were blocked by collapsed burning scaffolding at about 1505 and 1457 hours respectively; for Wang Tai House, the front entrance and rear exit were similarly obstructed at about 1520 and 1530 hours respectively (IFITF Report §10.3.3 [ER1/208]).

  1. Third, post-fire investigation revealed that the FAS of all eight blocks were shut

down before the fire (IFITF Report §§5.4.7.1, 10.4.1 [ER1/71, 215]). As a result, “residents did not receive timely warnings, leading to delayed evacuation” and once they became aware of the fire “the means of escape might have already been exposed to smoke and heat, which contributed to the heavy casualties” (IFITF Report §10.4.1 [ER1/215]).

  1. The IFITF recorded that Ms Chung Sui-ha, the security guard of Wang Cheong

House, attempted to manually activate the FAS at about 1448 hours, three minutes before the fire was officially reported to the FSD (IFITF Report §10.4.3 [ER1/215]). Her attempt was unsuccessful. The IFITF observed that had the

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system been operational, “Ms. CHUNG’s activation attempt at 1448 hours could have provided residents with a critical evacuation alert during the key escape window between 1448 hours and 1458 hours, when escape routes were still tenable” (IFITF Report §10.4.4 [ER1/215]). However, “as the FAS was not functional, residents remained unaware of the immediate danger until evacuation was no longer viable” (IFITF Report §10.4.5 [ER1/215]). The circumstances in which the FAS came to be shut down, and the responsibilities arising therefrom, are addressed in detail in Section N below.

  1. Fourth, polystyrene window covers installed during the renovation worked as a

protective measure from debris obstructed residents’ view of the external environment, “potentially hindering occupants from realizing the severity of the fire in neighbouring buildings as well as their own buildings, lowering their awareness and in turn delaying their response” (IFITF Report §10.5.1 [ER1/217]). The IFITF noted that among 291 witness statements, only 43 individuals (14.7%) reported seeing fire or smoke, and among 579 questionnaires, only 48 respondents (8.3%) indicated that they had witnessed the fire. The IFITF characterised these as “surprisingly low numbers for such a large fire” and concluded that “the installation of polystyrene window covers may have significantly hindered occupants’ ability to perceive the situation outside their units, thereby delaying their escape” (IFITF Report §10.5.3 [ER1/218]).

  1. In addition to obstructing awareness, the combustible polystyrene panels

“contributed to the vertical spread of the fire” and once windows were breached, “flames and smoke entered units easily and directly exposing residents to dangerous conditions” (IFITF Report §10.5.4 [ER1/218]). The combustion of polystyrene materials generated toxic gases including carbon monoxide. Toxicological reports indicated that 102 of the 168 fatalities had blood carbon

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monoxide saturation levels ranging from 15% to 80% (IFITF Report §10.5.4, fn 179 [ER1/218]).

  1. Fifth, two distinct mechanisms compromised the tenability of the means of

escape. 316.1. First, the upper ventilation parts of the windows in lift lobbies on some floors were left open during the fire, allowing smoke from the burning scaffolding to enter the lift lobbies and corridors and further shortening the time available for evacuation (IFITF Report §10.6.1.1 [ER1/225]). Security camera footage from Flat 1006 of Wang Tai House shows that the common corridor on the 10th floor was clear of smoke at 1516 hours, but “due to the rapid fire spread at the re-entrant adjacent to the lift lobby window,” the same corridor “was engulfed in dense smoke within the span of one minute” (IFITF Report §10.6.1.2 [ER1/225]). 316.2. Second, some windows in staircases were replaced with movable boards as access openings to the exterior scaffolding. During the fire, “these movable boards permitted smoke and heat to infiltrate the staircases” and “severe blackening of ceilings above the opening indicated heavy smoke penetration” (IFITF Report §10.6.2.1 [ER1/225]). The consequence was that “staircases intended to serve as protected escape routes were compromised, leaving residents without safe pathways for evacuation” (IFITF Report §10.6.2.1 [ER1/225]). The evidence demonstrates the effect of this compromise at Wang Tai House: of the 38 fatalities in the staircases and common areas of that building, 28 were found inside the staircase and the cause of death for all 28 was inhalation of fire fumes (IFITF Report §10.6.2.2 [ER1/225]; Corrigendum [ER9/2755]). The IFITF attributed this outcome to “the compromised openings in the staircase ... which allowed

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smoke and heat to infiltrate” and which “rendered the staircase, intended as a protected escape route and temporary place of safety, incapable of providing a safe environment for evacuation” (IFITF Report §10.6.2.2 [ER1/225]).

  1. Full-scale fire tests conducted in Sichuan confirmed that the wooden boards and

aluminium composite panels used as access opening covers at WFC were wholly unsuitable for protecting staircase openings (IFITF Report §10.6.2.4 [ER1/231]). 317.1. During the fire tests, the wooden board ignited at 4 minutes 40 seconds and the aluminium composite panel ignited at 7 minutes 49 seconds (IFITF Report §10.6.2.3 [ER1/230]). 317.2. By contrast, the fire-rated glass window “remained intact and maintained a lower interior temperature, therefore ensuring a safer environment for evacuation” (IFITF Report §10.6.2.4 [ER1/231]). 317.3. This scientific conclusion was corroborated by evidence: Ms Tse Yuk-wa, the occupant of Flat 204 of Wang Cheong House, observed during her evacuation at approximately 1455 hours “a reflection of fire immediately outside the fire-rated windows along the staircase,” providing “direct confirmation of the effectiveness of the fire-rated glass window installed along the escape staircase, which successfully served a fire separation component and prevented smoke infiltration into the staircase under fire conditions” (IFITF Report §10.6.2.5 [ER1/231]).

  1. The IFITF’s analysis confirms that the combination of the five factors “critically

affected both the ASET and the RSET” (IFITF Report §10.7.6 [ER1/236]).

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  1. 1. On the one hand, the rapid fire spread “developed at the re-entrants at an

exceptionally fast rate, simultaneously compromising the means of escape and causing blockages at building exits,” thereby reducing the Available Safe Egress Time (“ASET”) (IFITF Report §10.7.6 [ER1/236]). 318.2. On the other hand, the “failure of the fire alarm systems, combined with the presence of polystyrene window covers, further delayed occupant response and evacuation,” thereby increasing the Required Safe Egress Time (“RSET”) (IFITF Report §10.7.6 [ER1/236]). 318.3. The result was “an extremely limited escape window for evacuees, particularly for those occupants at Wang Cheong House and Wang Tai House,” who “were confronted with a dire situation during evacuation, as the means of escape had already been compromised at the very early stage of the fire” (IFITF Report §10.7.7 [ER1/237]).

  1. The IFITF’s conclusion is appropriately expressed in the following terms: “The

fire at Wang Fuk Court on 26.11.2025 was one of the most devastating incidents in recent history, resulting in 168 fatalities, including one FS member and 79 injuries. The scale and severity of the incident highlighted critical issues related to fire safety, building management and renovation practices, requiring attention to prevent similar incidents” (IFITF Report §11.1 [ER1/238]). The IFITF also recorded that “notwithstanding the rapid fire spread, over 100 individuals were rescued” and that “special arrangements were implemented, including early activation of the DCP, strengthening of the command structure and deployment of substantial rescue resources to manage the situation as effectively as possible” (IFITF Report §11.2 [ER1/238]).

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G6. The Committee’s Independent Expert Evidence and areas of agreement

  1. The Committee appointed Prof Asif Sohail Usmani and Prof Jiang Liming of the

Hong Kong Polytechnic University (“PolyU”) as independent fire engineering experts. Their expert report dated 15 June 2026 [ER3/2154-2265] sets out their independent findings based on their own experimental tests (conducted at the PolyU fire laboratory on samples provided by the Police), computational fluid dynamics simulations, and review of the available video, photographic and documentary evidence.

  1. The Committee’s experts and the IFITF’s expert (Prof Yuen) have worked

independently over several months, conducting separate tests and using their own methodologies to simulate the fire.

  1. Their conclusions129 are substantially consistent on all material matters.
  2. During the evidential hearing on Day 27, the Committee’s two experts confirmed

that the two teams had reached substantially similar conclusions in their respective reports [Day 27/84/3-8]. By way of illustration, the following key areas of agreement were also expressly confirmed (and which bear reiteration for present purposes):

129 For completeness, the Committee’s Expert Report at §5.3.6 (Table 5.1) [ER3/2241-2242] suggests that WFC may not have been fully compliant with the Code of Practice on the Provision of Means of Escape in Case of Fire 1976. The Government does not consider there to be non-compliance: as explored in cross-examination, the lift lobby configuration of WFC complies with Diagram 8 [B16/6373] of the Code [Day 27/93/11 – 97/21]. In any event, the Chairman indicated that the Committee would not make a finding of non-compliance: “If we are going into detailed interpretation as to whether this fulfil or not, since in this particular case it doesn't make a difference, we will not make any findings on that particular question … We note that there will be a difference of interpretation by the Government and the experts. That's it. We are not going to -- since in this case it does not make a difference” [Day 27/98/5-16].

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  1. 1. The lack of FR quality in the safety nets and canvases was an important

factor in the causation of fire in this instance (IC Expert Report §6.3.3 [ER3/2246]; confirmed at [Day 27/85/3 - 86/10]). 323.2. The re-entrant geometry created an uncontrolled chimney effect that was a key factor in the rapid vertical fire spread (IC Expert Report §6.2 [ER3/2245]; confirmed at [Day 27/84/13-23]). 323.3. The use of foam boards to cover windows was another important factor in the spread of fire and heavy casualties, despite their small mass (IC Expert Report §6.4.2 [ER3/2246]; confirmed at [Day 27/86/11 - 87/2]). 323.4. The alteration of staircase windows into access openings for workers was also an important factor in the spread of fire and heavy casualties (IC Expert Report §6.5.3 [ER3/2247]; confirmed at [Day 27/87/19 - 88/8]). The Committee’s experts agreed that fire and smoke infiltrated the staircases through gaps and holes in the movable boards for worker access openings, even before the boards were completely burned out, and that both wooden boards and aluminium composite panels were unsuitable for protecting staircase openings (IC Expert Report §6.5.3 [ER3/2247]; IFITF Report §10.6.2.1 [ER1/225]). 323.5. The unreported shutdown of the FAS lengthened the residents’ detection time of the fire. It was one of the contributing factors that led to heavy casualties because, together with the compromise of the means of escape through access openings and open lift lobby windows, it had reduced the time for escape of the residents in Wang Cheong House and Wang Tai House to practically zero (IC Expert Report §6.6.1 [ER3/2247]; IFITF Report §10.4.5 [ER1/215]).

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the safety nets and canvases at WFC had been fire-retardant, the initial fire may have self-extinguished and not caused the combustible materials inside the re- entrant to catch fire, so the fire might not have developed and the fire spread would have been much more minimal (IC Expert Report §6.3.3 [ER3/2245]). Prof Jiang confirmed this directly during his oral evidence when asked whether both teams agreed that the lack of FR quality in the safety nets and canvases was an important factor in the causation of fire in this instance: “Yes, correct” [Day 27/85/16]. Prof Usmani likewise confirmed: “That would be fair” [Day 27/86/10].

whether, assuming all other factors being equal and the only difference being that FR nets and canvas were used, the re-entrant fire at Wang Cheong House would have developed as it did, Prof Yuen stated: “According to my scientific analysis, the answer is no” [Day 26/38/3-4]. He further confirmed that with FR materials, the fire “would not be as severe” and that while it “may burn for a while, and some materials might be ignited... for the development, it would not be as severe” [Day 26/38/10-13].

with the IFITF’s conclusions. The experts noted that Tests 12 and 13 of the full- scale fire tests (which used identical safety nets from Wang Chi House but differed only in whether FR or non-FR canvas was used) yielded dramatically different outcomes: Test 12 (FR canvas) produced a peak heat release rate (“HRR”) of 0.62 MW with bamboo unaffected, whereas Test 13 (non-FR canvas) produced a peak HRR of 11.58 MW with bamboo sticks ignited (IC Expert Report §3.6.16 [ER3/2184]). The IFITF likewise concluded that “non-FR canvas accelerated fire growth, transforming limited and localized fires into a 125

widespread intense blaze with excessive heat release sufficient to ignite bamboo sticks” (IFITF Report §§7.2.3.19 & 8.6.2.1 [ER1/104 & 174]).

  1. Both teams therefore agree that non-FR canvas was a critical accelerant that

transformed small localised fires into uncontrollable conflagrations.

  1. In the specific context of the WFC fire, the original fire source was likely to come

from one or more cigarette. Further, the secondary fire spread from Wang Cheong House to adjacent blocks was caused by embers drifting [Day 26/62/14-19]. Those were relatively small sources of fire [Day 26/71/22-25]. As Prof Yuen put it, “When the fire started, barely anyone noticed. There were some droplets. At that point the fire was probably a small fire” [Day 26/36/20-22]. Echoing the above, Dr To Chi-wing confirmed that the small fire that came into contact with the combustibles on the flat roof outside Flats 104 and 105 of Wang Cheong House “would probably look more like the small fire scenario mentioned by Prof Yuen” [Day 26/63/10-15].

  1. In contrast, even in the so-called small fire conducted by Prof Yuen’s team (with

fire size below 1.5 MW or 1,500 KW), wooden cribs with 10 wooden sticks were used as the fire source (as in all other tests) [ER1/92, Photo 7-2(a), (b); ER2- 2/1423]. There is apparently little evidence to suggest that the fire source of the WFC fire (at least at the incipient stage) exceeds the scale of the set-up in Prof Yuen’s tests, which are thus at least comparable.

  1. As Prof Yuen explained, “We can talk about it at different stages. If it is a small

fire, if we assume that the combustibles have caught fire, at the incipient stage the situation would be similar because the fire started at a lower level. Even with a long shaft, the development has yet to take place. So at the initial stage it’s comparable” [Day 26/28/19-25].

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fire to self-extinguish, thereby preventing both the primary vertical fire spread within the re-entrant and the secondary fire spread to adjacent blocks. This is borne out by Test 11 conducted by Prof Yuen [ER1/106, Figure 7-4 & Photo 7- 6(a), (b)].

point: the re-entrant geometry is inherently prone to amplifying any fire that takes hold within it, regardless of the ignition source. Their CFD simulations demonstrated that for a 50 MW fire at the base of a re-entrant, flames exceeded 100 metres in height within seconds, whereas a single flat wall produced flames of only 33 metres under identical conditions (IC Expert Report §6.2.1, Appendix A §1.4 [ER3/2245, 2270-2272]).

threshold is exceeded, the re-entrant geometry drives exponential fire growth to the point where all combustibles are eventually consumed. The Committee experts’ simulations showed HRRs of 700–800 MW for a 31-storey building (IC Expert Report §3.7, Appendix A §1.5 [ER3/2187-2198, 2273-2275]); the IFITF’s CFD simulations produced comparable results of 755–834 MW across Cases 1 to 3 (IFITF Report §7.3.4.2 [ER1/122]).

conclusions, arrived at through separate methodologies, provides a robust scientific evidential foundation for the Committee’s findings on causation.

a small fire might self-extinguish and the use of FR materials would substantially reduce the probability of exponential growth of fire, he is naturally concerned that the consequence is grave once such probability materialises [Day 27/62/15 - 63/1- 127

9]. His concern is that once a certain threshold point is reached then all combustibles including bamboo will be burnt within a re-entrant. As Prof Usmani put it, risk is the product of probability and consequence [Day 27/50/21 - 51/7]. In the ideal world, of course all measures should be taken to address both, and the Committee’s Experts advocate use of non-combustible materials only at re- entrant spaces. Prof Usmani added that, if not, he would insist that all windows facing a re-entrant should be FR windows [Day 27/63/12-16]. That said, the Committee’s Experts fairly accepted that they said so from a fire engineering point of view, while other factors such as socio-economic considerations are also at stake [Day 27/99/1-9]. Whilst the Government will give serious considerations to all these, at this juncture the Committee may note that there are various measures (or combination of measures) at play. Some of them may affect both probability and consequence, whilst others target only one (but not both). For instance, FR materials could reduce probability of a big fire as well as its consequence (i.e. even if a fire is to fully develop, it would still need more time), whereas an uncompromised staircase (without opening) limits the consequence, i.e. it does not reduce the probability of a fire but effectively averts the consequence by affording residents a safe passageway for escape, thus substantially increasing the ASET. At the end of the day, it is a balancing exercise, and the question boils down to risk assessment: see Section R5 below.

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PART III(A): ON THE FIREFIGHTING AND RESCUE OPERATIONS H. THE EVENTS FROM 26 TO 28 NOVEMBER 2025 H1. The FSD

  1. The FSD is led by the DFS with the support of the Deputy Director (Operations)

(“DD(Ops)”) and Deputy Director (Public Safety and Corporate Strategy) (“DD(P&C)”). The senior management comprises 22 directorate officers, including 21 uniformed officers and one civilian officer130 [WS1/38].

  1. The organisational structure at the material time provided for four Operational

Commands: the Operational Support and Professional Development Command, Ambulance Command under DD(Ops), the Corporate Strategy Command, Fire Safety Command, Licensing and Certification Command and Administration Branch under DD(P&C) 131 [WS1/38].

  1. The firefighting and rescue operation at WFC involved a large number of FSD

officers across multiple ranks, units and commands. The evidence before the Committee includes witness statements and oral testimony from officers who served at every level of the command structure, from the initial attending crew to the DFS himself. DD Chan confirmed this was “the largest scale deployment ever” in the FSD’s history [Day 18/47/22 - 48/2].

  1. The Incident Occurrence Log at [B13/5734-6152] contains a granular record of

the entire firefighting and rescue operation from the FSD’s perspective, including all radio messages, resource deployments, and SAR updates. The Committee may wish to refer to the same for a comprehensive account of the timing and sequence of the operational decision, deployment and communication throughout the

130 TANG Wing Wah (AD NTN, FSD) 1st WS §5 131 TANG Wing Wah 1st WS §5

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incident; the narrative that follows draws upon that record together with the witness statements and oral evidence of the officers involved.

  1. In the narrative that follows, the Government draws upon the evidence of those

witnesses to present a chronological account of the operation organised by reference to the successive fire alarm levels. H2. Evidence on the firefighting operation – different phases of the WFC fire with reference to the fire alarm levels and deployment of resources (i) Breakout of the fire (No. 1 Fire Alarm)

  1. At 1451 hours on 26 November 2025, the FSCC received the first fire call. The

caller reported that a fire with explosion had occurred at scaffolding installed along the external wall of Wang Cheong House132 [WS1/40]. SStnO Hui Kin-on confirmed that the information relayed was: “fire involving scaffolding on external wall with explosion occurred”133 [WS2/987].

  1. Pursuant to the PDA for a No. 1 Alarm Fire [B2/2106], one Hydraulic Platform,

one Major Pump (“MP”), one Light Rescue Unit (“LRU”), one Turntable Ladder (“TL”) and one Ambulance were immediately dispatched.

  1. Additionally, by reason of the contingency plan for WFC dated 13 November

2024 [B2/2642-2649], one additional MP and one additional LRU were dispatched upon receipt of the first fire call.

  1. Furthermore, due to the shutdown of the FH/HR System at Wang Cheong House,

one additional MP was dispatched pursuant to the FSD Departmental Policy Instructions.

132 TANG Wing Wah 1st WS §8 133 HUI Kin On (SStnO, FSD) 1st WS §7

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and one LRU was dispatched at 1454 hours, together with one Reserve Heavy Pump134 [WS1/40].

during the initial stage. It was stated that “the magnitude of manpower deployment at that time had already reached around 80% of the PDA for a No. 3 Alarm Fire (i.e. 79 FS members)” 135 [WS1/41].

Po Fire Station) to arrive at WFC. He arrived at 1456 hours (five minutes after the first call) and became the initial Incident Commander136 [WS1/40; WS2/987]. There was no copy of the contingency plan on board the fire engine, but SStnO Hui was aware of its content from having been involved in its formulation [Day 11/8/6-10]. The mobile data terminal informed SStnO Hui of a defective FSI [Day 11/6/2-23].

facing Kwong Wang Street. A passer-by led SStnO Hui to the rear façade facing Island House Lane, where the scaffolding was “well alight” from the ground floor to approximately the 8th or 9th floor, measuring approximately 8 metres in width by 30 metres in height 137 [WS2/988]. “Well alight” is a professional term indicating a serious, intense fire [Day 19/7/20-25]. The fire was therefore already of enormous scale five minutes of the first call.

and deploy two water jets towards the lower portion of the scaffolding at the 134 TANG Wing Wah 1st WS §12 135 TANG Wing Wah 1st WS §14 136 TANG Wing Wah 1st WS §9; HUI Kin On 1st WS §5 137 HUI Kin On 1st WS §9

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exterior of Wang Cheong House facing Island House Lane. He observed that the fire was “vertically spreading upward along the scaffolding structure rapidly” and that “a large quantity of burning bamboo, wooden planks, and miscellaneous articles were falling from height of Wang Cheong House to the open ground on ground floor,”138 blocking the rear exit [WS2/990].

  1. At approximately 1459 hours, SStnO Hui returned to the roundabout and

observed that the fire had already spread from the rear façade of Wang Cheong House to its west façade via flying embers. At 1500 hours, he observed fire spread from Wang Cheong House to the east façade of Wang Tai House139 [WS2/989]. DD Chan confirmed in oral evidence that this building-to-building spread within approximately 10 minutes was “unprecedented” and that in his years of experience with the FSD he had “never” encountered a situation in which “within such a short space of time so many blocks would be involved” [Day 18/30/7-18]. He agreed that “everything was unprecedented” [Day 18/30/19–22].

  1. The fire appliance sirens were turned off after arrival at the scene. SStnO Hui

confirmed this was to prevent the substantial sound volume of the sirens from affecting proper communications between firefighters at the fire scene; the sirens had served its alerting function en route [Day 11/14/1-8] – particularly bearing in mind the arrival of numerous fire appliances one after another at the scene.

  1. No fire alarm sounded at Wang Cheong House or any other block. SStnO Hui

confirmed he did not hear any fire alarm [Day 11/21/18 - 22/4]. He attempted to gain access to activate the break-glass unit, but both the front entrance and rear exit of Wang Cheong House were blocked by falling burning debris. As SStnO Hui stated: “I tried to ask my colleagues to get in to the building to see why there was no fire alarm. A lot of times we were the ones who activate the fire alarm

138 HUI Kin On 1st WS §14 139 HUI Kin On 1st WS §11

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system. At the rear entrance of Wang Cheong House, we couldn’t get in, and when we went to the front entrance there were many burning debris falling from height... We couldn’t get in from the front entrance so we couldn’t get into Wang Cheong House to activate the fire alarm system” [Day 11/22/4-13].

  1. No representative of the PMC approached SStnO Hui or any other officer at the

scene during the period of SStnO Hui’s command [Day 11/21/10-17].

  1. At 1502 hours, SStnO Hui observed rapid fire spread among different façades of

Wang Cheong House, with the mid-lower level of the east façade of Wang Tai House “well alight.” Noting that there were no evacuees from the front entrance of Wang Cheong House, and in view of the fire development and potential large number of residents trapped therein, he upgraded the fire to No. 3 Alarm so as to request additional manpower and appliances resources to the scene140 [WS2/990]. The decision was made six minutes after SStnO Hui’s arrival and 11 minutes after the first call.

  1. AD Tang Wing-wah confirmed the initial firefighting tactics: two jets were

immediately deployed towards the scaffolding structures at the exterior of Wang Cheong House where the fire started and was vertically spreading, specifically at “the side where Rooms 104 and 105 are located”. At the material time, “the fire had spread to Wang Tai House” 141 [WS1/41]. This unit-specific reference cross- references the IFITF’s fire investigation findings on the point of origin addressed in Section G above.

  1. At approximately 1503 hours, immediately after upgrading to No. 3 Alarm,

SStnO Hui received a message from the FSCC of an assistance call at Room 2701 of Wang Cheong House. He ordered PStnO Liao Kong-lap, officer-in-charge of

140 HUI Kin On 1st WS §12 141 TANG Wing Wah 1st WS §15

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the Sha Tin Major Pump, to handle this assistance call. PStnO Liao then instructed PFn Chan Chun-man, officer-in-charge of the Sha Tin Light Rescue Unit to organise the rescue, who in turn instructed SFn Ho, Fn Yeung Ching and Fn Siu Tsz-ho to respond142 [WS2/990; WS15/2186 & 2190]. This is the direct chain of instruction leading to SFn Ho’s entry into the fire, addressed in detail at Section H6(i) below. (ii) No.3 Fire Alarm (including setting up of the Director’s Command Post)

  1. At 1519 hours, ADO Cheung Lok-hang arrived at the scene and took over as

Incident Commander143 [WS2/995]. Upon arrival, he observed that the northwest façade of Wang Cheong House and east façade of Wang Tai House were “well alight”, that the fire had spread to Wang Shing House with its southwest façade (middle to upper floors) also alight, and that burning bamboo sticks and debris were continuously falling from Wang Cheong House144 [WS2/995].

  1. At approximately 1523 hours, ADO Cheung met SStnO Hui at the roundabout

near Wang Tai House. SStnO Hui reported firefighting and rescue operations in progress at Wang Cheong, Wang Tai and Wang Shing Houses, and reported that a Mayday message was received at approximately 1522 hours via radiotelephone. The message content was muffled; the identity of the distressed member and building location could not be confirmed from the message145 [WS2/996].

  1. In response to the Mayday message, SStnO Hui formed four Emergency

Response Teams, with crew members of TP/MP and TP/HP directed to apply water jets to the front entrance of Wang Cheong House to suppress the fire and clear an access as quickly as possible for the rescue operation. A fifth Emergency

142 HUI Kin On 1st WS §13 143 CHEUNG Lok Hang (Stn Cmdr Tai Po, FSD) 1st WS §6 144 CHEUNG Lok Hang 1st WS §6 145 CHEUNG Lok Hang 1st WS §7

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Response Team (“ERT”) was subsequently formed on PStnO Liao’s request after Liao confirmed that the Mayday sender was SFn Ho of ST/LRU146 [WS2/991- 992]. The ERTs could not enter Wang Cheong House as both its front entrance and rear exit were blocked by burning bamboo sticks and debris147 [WS2/1001].

  1. At 1529 hours, DO Lam Ho-chun arrived at Tai Po Baptist Public School inside

WFC and took over as Incident Commander of the No. 3 Alarm Fire. At the material time, DO Lam noted that fire had scattered on the middle and upper portions of the scaffoldings installed along the external walls of the east façade of Wang Sun House and southeast façades of Wang Kin House and Wang Shing House, whilst fire had spread along the scaffoldings on the southwest façade of Wang Cheong House and east façade of Wang Tai House148 [WS2/1000-1001].

  1. Simultaneously with the No. 3 Alarm at 1520 hours, the DFS activated the

Director’s Command Post (“DCP”) at Tier 2 Response and mobilised approximately 80 uniformed members from non-operational units to establish a Support Centre with 18 dedicated hotlines149 [WS1/44]. In light of the rapid development of the fire and continued increase in assistance calls, DCP prioritised the immediate augmentation of rescue manpower: two additional Search and Rescue (“SAR”) teams were deployed through the FSCC at 1520 hours, four additional SAR teams at 1533 hours, and four further SAR teams at 1548 hours (totalling 10 additional SAR teams comprising 20 fire appliances with 105 FS members, all dispatched on the Director’s instruction) 150 [WS2/1016]. All 10 additional SAR teams were dispatched during the No. 3 Alarm period, before the No. 4 upgrade at 1534 hours.

146 HUI Kin On 1st WS §§19-21 147 LAM Ho Chun (Dep. Div. Cmdr NTE) 1st WS §7 148 LAM Ho Chun 1st WS §§5-6 149 TANG Wing Wah 1st WS §28 150 FOK Chun Ming (DCFO Corp Strategy, FSD) 1st WS §9

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Tai House, and the fire development at Wang Shing House, Wang Kin House and Wang Sun House, Lam upgraded the fire to No. 4 Alarm. He simultaneously tasked ADO Cheung to continue firefighting operations at Wang Kin House and Wang Sun House, ADO Chow Tsz-ho to assist with the Mayday rescue operation, and SSO Hui to tackle fire at Wang Shing House, Wang Cheong House and Wang Tai House and to gain clearer access for the ERTs into Wang Cheong House151 [WS2/1002].

torrent of burning bamboo sticks and debris cascading onto the open ground between Wang Cheong House and Wang Tai House. Lam made an immediate call to pull back all crew members from the impact zone. In approximately 30 seconds, crew members resumed firefighting operations with three jets in use at the open ground between the two buildings152 [WS2/1002].

the scene at 1535 hours, directed the FSCC to collaborate with the Public Safety and Communication Division to issue a Special Announcement via press release and FSD social media to alert the public about the fire 153 [WS2/1007]. At approximately 1539 hours, DCFO(NTN) Wong observed six buildings ablaze: Wang Shing House (southwest façade), Wang Cheong House (multiple façades, well alight), Wang Tai House (multiple façades, well alight), Wang Kin House (southwest façade), Wang Sun House (south façade) and Wang Tao House (middle-upper portion, southwest façade). The fire had just spread to Wang Tao 151 LAM Ho Chun 1st WS §8 152 LAM Ho Chun 1st WS §9 153 WONG King Man (DCFO NTN, FSD) 1st WS §7

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House. DCFO(NTN) Wong immediately ordered the attendance of three additional TLs154 [WS2/1007].

  1. The No. 3 Alarm firefighting tactics included three additional jets deployed at the

open ground outside Wang Cheong and Wang Tai Houses, and two jets deployed to Wang Kin and Wang Sun Houses. Two TLs were dispatched: the first arrived at 1504 hours and was positioned at the roundabout to suppress fire spread among Wang Cheong, Wang Tai and Wang Shing Houses; the second arrived at 1523 hours and was strategically repositioned to Tai Po Road near Wang Tai House155 [WS1/42]. Once the No. 3 Alarm was raised, the FSCC also deployed Compartment Fire Specialists, High-rise Building Firefighting Specialists, a BA Unit with specialists to monitor overall BA operations, and a Communications Support Team to maintain effective radio communication and battery checks156 [WS1/45]. (iii) No.4 Fire Alarm

  1. DCFO(NTN) Wong King-man assumed the role of Incident Commander of the

No. 4 Alarm Fire at 1550 hours, upon boarding the Mobile Command Unit (“MCU”) of Tsim Sha Tsui Fire Station. He immediately requested the MCU crew to provide a map detailing the names of the buildings at WFC to assist with planning the Incident Command System157 [WS2/1008].

  1. At approximately 1600 hours, the Water Supplies Department (“WSD”) opened

all relevant government water main valves, achieving a continuous water pressure of 7 to 7.5 bar at WSD street hydrants near WFC. This was significantly above the FSD’s minimum requirement of 1.7 bar, by a factor of 3.1 to 3.4 times. AD

154 WONG King Man 1st WS §8 155 TANG Wing Wah 1st WS §21 156 TANG Wing Wah 1st WS §29 157 WONG King Man 1st WS §11

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Tang confirmed that “the availability of water from those street hydrants did not pose a limitation on FSD’s firefighting efforts”158 [WS2/967].

  1. At 1610 hours, DD Chan arrived at the scene. The fire had already spread to seven

of the eight residential buildings, with Wang Chi House being the only block not yet directly involved by flame, and assistance calls were surging from multiple blocks. DD Chan promptly confirmed with DO Lam that occupants were evacuating from all blocks (with the help from the Police as per the usual understanding between the FSD and Police), and confirmed with the duty Senior Station Officer (Control) that the deployed manpower at that time (269 FS members) had already exceeded twice the PDA for a No. 5 Alarm (110 FS members)159 [WS8/1924].

  1. At 1618 hours, AD Tang took over as Incident Commander from DCFO(NTN)

Wong King-man. At 1623 hours, AD Tang assigned DCFO(NTN) Wong to take over the role of Rescue Officer and take charge of the overall Search and Rescue operations. AD Tang confirmed that assigning a DCFO to the Rescue Officer role was a first-ever initiative, reflecting the unprecedented scale of the SAR operation160 [WS2/968-969].

  1. At 1635 hours, DD Chan instructed AD Tang to implement a building-by-

building command strategy by setting up eight operation sectors (Ops 1 to 8), each corresponding to one of the residential buildings, each to be commanded by a Senior Officer responsible for firefighting, with one additional Senior Officer in each sector dedicated as SAR leader161 [WS8/1924].

158 TANG Wing Wah 2nd WS §6 159 CHAN Derek Armstrong (DD Ops, FSD) 1st WS §11 160 TANG Wing Wah 2nd WS §§10-12 161 CHAN Derek Armstrong 1st WS §12

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firefighting operations thereat: Wang Shing House (SDO Wong Wang-leong), Wang Cheong House (DO Cheng Chun-kit), Wang Tai House (SDO Lai Wai- hei), Wang Kin House (DO Lam Ho-chun), Wang Sun House (DO Lai King- leung, acting), Wang Tao House (DO Wong Chun-on), Wang Yan House (SDO Ho Chun-pong), and Wang Chi House (DO Chow Chin-choi for precautionary intervention) 162 [WS2/969]. The allocation of precautionary intervention to Wang Chi House (the only unaffected block) was a proactive decision that may have contributed to its remaining the sole building spared by the fire.

members had been dispatched to the scene. The deployed manpower had already reached approximately twice the PDA for a No. 5 Alarm Fire 163 [WS1/45]. Within approximately one hour of the fire outbreak (by 1551 hours), three TLs had arrived; within another half-hour (by 1621 hours), six TLs were at the scene; and before the No. 5 Alarm was raised, seven TLs were deployed at strategic locations along the EVA of WFC, Tai Po Road (Yuen Chau Tsai), Island House Lane and Yuen Shin Road164 [WS1/46]. (iv) No.5 Fire Alarm

calls had escalated to 82 units, and a total of 171 FS appliances with 718 FS members had been dispatched to WFC, with every building under the charge of designated Senior Officers for both firefighting and SAR operations. His written witness statement165 [WS8/1930-1931] explains the rationale for the upgrade in 162 TANG Wing Wah 2nd WS §15 163 TANG Wing Wah 1st WS §32 164 TANG Wing Wah 1st WS §34 165 CHAN Derek Armstrong 1st WS §24

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terms that make clear it was driven by command-structure considerations rather than resource inadequacy: “At the time of my arrival at 1610 hours on 26.11.2025, the manpower at scene (269 FS members) had already exceeded twice the PDA for a No. 5 Alarm (110 FS members), and by 1822 hours a total of 116 fire appliances and 55 ambulances with 718 FS members had been despatched, such that the cumulative manpower deployed already exceeded 6.5 times the PDA for a No. 5 Alarm... I considered it appropriate to upgrade the fire to No. 5 Alarm at 1822 hours and assume overall command as Incident Commander, so as to provide a clearly defined strategic command for the whole scene and to ensure that firefighting and SAR operations across all sectors were coordinated under a single incident-wide framework”

  1. The pattern is consistent across all three upgrade decisions: actual deployment

ran well ahead of the formal alarm level. As AD Tang confirmed in his oral evidence: “Each officer at their respective post will know what resources they need and they can make the request directly... Colleagues at their respective posts will do their best instead of being classified in their approach” [Day 19/32/15– 33/21].

  1. When asked whether “if the incident commander is of the view that they require

additional resources, say, for example, turntable ladders, regardless of the number of alarm, they can make that request,” AD Tang confirmed: “Yes. There are colleagues at different positions. At each block there is the sector officer, rescue officer and the incident commander. So each officer at their respective post will know what resources they need and they can make the request directly” [Day 19/32/25 - 33/5]. He further confirmed that in addition to the automatic PDA upon alarm escalation, “colleagues will, after taking into account the actual

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situation, ask for additional resources or additional appliances or reinforcement” [Day 19/33/16-21]. The Chairman confirmed his understanding of the design: “Every time when there was an upgrading of the level of alarm, you had established procedures as to the number of appliances to be deployed and therefore the commander at the scene already knew the number of appliances would be sent” [Day 19/28/21-25]. The effect of this established mechanism was that no officer needed to await a formal alarm upgrade before requesting specific resources.

  1. At 2230 hours on 26 November, a cumulative total of 221 FS appliances and 989

FS members had been dispatched, approximately nine times the PDA for a No. 5 Alarm Fire. At that material time, the appliances and manpower of the Fire and Rescue Corps of Guangdong Province were known to be present at Liantang Port. DD Chan assessed that additional manpower support from them was not required, for reasons of scene capacity and operational incompatibility addressed in detail at Section O6(v) below.

  1. Several unprecedented operational initiatives were implemented during the No. 5

Alarm period. AD Tang’s evidence records that these included: the DCP being activated at Tier 2 and led by AD(CS) at the very initial stage; both DD(Ops) and DD(P&C) proactively responding to the scene and EMSC respectively; the Support Centre making approximately 1,500 call-back calls; the assignment of a DCFO as Rescue Officer; the assignment of SDO or DO to lead both firefighting and SAR operations for all individual buildings; the deployment of AD(NTS) to monitor operational safety issues; the deployment of DCFO(FS) to facilitate SAR communications; and the presence of 25 Senior Officers and Directorate Officers

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at the scene by 2100 hours on 26 November, including ranks from DO through to Director166[WS1/50-52]; IFITF Report §5.4.6.1 [ER1/69-70]. (v) Handover of command at 0935 hours on 2025.11.27

  1. DD Chan served as overall Incident Commander from 1822 hours on 26

November through the overnight period to 0935 hours on 27 November, over 13 hours of continuous command. At 0935 hours, he handed over to DD(P&C) Wong Ka-wing. At 2100 hours on 27 November, DD Chan returned to WFC and resumed the role of Incident Commander167 [WS8/1929-1930].

  1. Proactive measures to sustain the prolonged operation included: a reserve of

approximately 220 BA cylinders maintained at the BA Main Control; compact portable pumps stationed at the staging area for immediate deployment to various sectors; Unmanned Aerial System (“UAS”) aerial surveillance from 1615 hours; special manpower relief arrangements with officers called in 1.5 hours early and coaches arranged to convey fresh crews to the scene at 0900 hours on 27 November; and the establishment of a temporary on-site mortuary coordinated with the Chief Ambulance Officer upon the discovery of multiple casualties168 [WS8/1927–1928]. (vi) Declaration of the fire being “surrounded”, “under control” and delivery of the “STOP” message

  1. “Fire surrounded” was declared at 2131 hours on 27 November 2025. At that

time the FSCC recorded assistance calls for 355 locations, with 320 locations (90.1%) successfully attended by FS members169 [WS8/1929].

166 TANG Wing Wah 1st WS §50 167 CHAN Derek Armstrong 1st WS §§21-22 168 CHAN Derek Armstrong 1st WS §§17-19 169 CHAN Derek Armstrong 1st WS §22

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the assistance calls for 364 locations, 356 had been attended by FS members, with 129 FS appliances and 541 FS members deployed170 [WS8/1930].

meaning further mobilisation of resources was no longer required. At that time 143 FS appliances and 635 FS members remained in attendance. As DD Chan explained: “We were dealing with a couple of things. For the affected units, we still had to spray water on them to prevent reignition. There were still officers on the scene and we had to keep an eye on the conveyance of the deceased. Firefighters would also be going upstairs to conduct thorough searches to make sure that we could locate all the deceased ones” [Day 18/47/12-21].

at 1451 hours on 26 November 2025 to the delivery of the “STOP” message at 1018 hours on 28 November 2025, was approximately 43 hours. H3. Evidence on the rescue operation (i) Handling of 999 calls since the first call received

one fire call, a SAR team was dispatched at 1454 hours pursuant to the established protocol: a SAR team is automatically dispatched when a building fire is reported by two or more callers, comprising one pumping appliance and one rescue appliance, together with one Reserve Heavy Pump equipped with a PPV Blower and one ambulance171 [WS1/40; WS1/61]. 170 CHAN Derek Armstrong 1st WS §23 171 TANG Wing Wah 1st WS §8; WONG Sze Lut, Sunny (DCFO OSPD, FSD) 1st WS §5.1.2

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SAR team comprising two fire appliances, as well as one MCU, and allocates an additional talk group exclusively for SAR operations172 [WS1/62]. Given the speed of call accumulation on 26 November, the MCU was effectively triggered at a very early stage of the incident.

first, console operators collect essential information from the caller, including the location of persons requiring assistance, the number of persons along with their gender and age, and a contact phone number; second, all assistance requests are recorded in the Computer Mobilising System and relayed to the SAR Team Leader immediately; third, if the caller has doubts about evacuation, appropriate safety advice is provided173 [WS1/62]. Essential information is disseminated to the Incident Commander, SAR Team Leader and officer-in-charge of the MCU via FSD Messenger, the Department’s internal instant messaging application174 [WS1/62-63].

separate from the 999 call system operated by the Police. Its function was to assist the FSCC in implementing the Call-back Mechanism thereby enabling the FSCC to maintain focus on receiving and handling incoming emergency calls while ensuring that callers who had reported their need for assistance would continue to receive attention and guidance in the changing circumstances175 [WS2/1023]. Upon termination of the three-way call involving the caller, FSCC and Police Control and Command Centre (“PCCC”), the Support Centre would call the caller back periodically to obtain updates on their situation and provide ongoing 172 WONG Sze Lut, Sunny 1st WS §5.1.4.1 173 WONG Sze Lut, Sunny 1st WS §5.1.3.1 174 WONG Sze Lut, Sunny 1st WS §5.1.5 175 WONG Sze Lut, Sunny 3rd WS §4.1.1

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safety advice176 [WS1/44; WS2/1023]. In total, approximately 1,500 call-back phone calls were made by the Support Centre to update the conditions and locations of affected residents 177 [WS1/51] [B13/1] [B15/1]. The Chairman specifically commended this mechanism at the hearing, observing that “callback is quite useful, as proven by this experience” [Day 12/108/12-16].

  1. Despite the surge in the volume of calls after the fire broke out, with the

establishment of the Support Centre, the FSCC was able to answer calls within an average of one minute for the rest of the day178 [WS1/164].

  1. The Government acknowledges, however, that the large volume of duplicated

calls “did cause difficulties to operations, underscoring the importance of effective filtering and streamlining processes in managing high-demand incidents” 179 [WS1/165]. The 4th Generation Mobilising System to be upgraded, currently in testing, will automate the transmission of assistance request information to all parties simultaneously, eliminating the manual steps of photographing and transmitting screen information that characterised the operation on 26 November 2025180 [WS1/166].

  1. At 1520 hours, the DCP directed deployment of two additional SAR teams; four

more at 1533 hours; four more at 1548 hours — totalling 10 additional SAR teams comprising 20 fire appliances with 105 FS members, all dispatched on the DFS’s instruction during the No. 3 Alarm period 181 [WS2/1016]. The proactive augmentation of SAR resources by the DCP significantly pre-dated the formal alarm escalation to No. 4 at 1534 hours.

176 TANG Wing Wah 1st WS §28; WONG Sze Lut, Sunny 3rd WS §4.1 177 TANG Wing Wah 1st WS §50.3 178 WONG Sze Lut, Sunny 2nd WS §4.5.1 179 WONG Sze Lut, Sunny 2nd WS §4.7.4 180 WONG Sze Lut, Sunny 2nd WS §4.8.2 181 FOK Chun Ming 1st WS §9

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(ii) Evacuation at the early stages of the fire, in particular the status of the fire alarms at each of the eight blocks

  1. The FAS failed to activate in seven of the eight buildings; only Wang Sun

House’s FAS was “momentarily actuated at the incipient phase of the fire” [B11/5643]. AD Tang confirmed that “during the fire, the manual fire alarm systems failed to be activated in 7 out of 8 buildings and hence affected the evacuation of residents in those buildings”182 [WS1/56]. This was identified as one of the principal challenges delaying evacuation.

  1. Crew members were sent to Wang Kin, Wang Sun and Wang Tao Houses to break

the break-glass units and activate the FAS, but this failed. SStnO Hui confirmed: “I asked the crew members to turn on the fire alarm system of other blocks. There were crew members who have entered Wang Kin, Wang Sun and Wang Tao House to break the break-glass unit to turn on the fire alarm system, but in vain. At that time I realised that the FAS of Wang Fuk Court was problematic.” He estimated this realisation came “at around 3.35, 3.40 pm” [Day 11/43/11-20].

  1. Over 250 residents from different buildings self-evacuated to the ground floor

with the assistance of the Police and FSD. AD Tang clarified that this figure was “a sum of all the best estimates that the initial attending officers were able to make while they were also carrying out their own operational duties during the initial stage of the fire against the urgent and everchanging situation at the time”183 [WS2/976]. It is a visual estimate under operational pressure, not a precise count.

  1. At the early stage of the fire, as the FSD’s first attending crews were largely

engaged in firefighting operations and clearance of obstructions at the entrances and exits of various buildings, particularly at Wang Cheong House and Wang Tai

182 TANG Wing Wah 1st WS §63 183 TANG Wing Wah 2nd WS §35

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House, assistance was sought from the Police to assist in evacuation. Police personnel used the Public Address system in police vehicles and loudhailers to urge residents to evacuate, and evacuees were guided to places of safety on the ground level by the combined efforts of both the FSD and Police personnel184 [WS6/1861]. Specifically, 13 officers of PTU X4 entered Wang Chi House and Wang Yan House between approximately 1613 and 1640 hours to assist in the evacuation of residents from upper floors, successfully evacuating nine residents 185 [WS17/2204-2207]. The FSD was informed of these evacuation initiatives186 [WS17/2205]. In addition, at approximately 1604 hours, the Police deployed a drone (DJI Matrice 30T) from the rooftop of the WFC car park, which was used to conduct aerial surveillance of the fire scene with live-streaming to the New Territories North Command Centre and simultaneously broadcast evacuation messages in Cantonese, urging WFC residents to evacuate.187

  1. The Emergency Alert System (“EAS”) was considered but not used. DD Chan

explained that he “considered the EAS unsuitable for this incident because, at the material time, this situation required localised, one-on-one communication with specific residents in the affected buildings rather than broadcast to the general public due to the unpredictability of the dynamic fire development. This specific

184 TANG Wing Wah 3rd WS §7 185 CHEUNG Lui (PTU X Cmdr, Police) 1st WS §§4-7. In addition to the 13 officers of PTU X4 (Column 1-2) mentioned at CHEUNG Lui’s 1st WS, 4 more officers of PTU X4 (Column 3) also assisted in the evacuation by attending the 9th, 10th, 14th and 15th floors of Wang Yan House, though yielding no results: see the police witness statements of SGT , SGT , PC and PC [7th Lists of Content submitted to the Committee by the Police, Part IX-A1-62, Part IX-A1-63, Part IX-A1-81, Part IX-A1-82]; and one officer of EU NTN attended Wang Tai House to assist the evacuation of a resident upon request by her family member: see the police witness statement of PC 7th Lists of Content submitted to the Committee by the Police, Part IX- A1-38. 186 CHEUNG Lui 1st WS §7 187 Police witness statements of SIP Liu Wai-keung and SIP Li Shing-hon [5th Lists of Content submitted to the Committee by the Police, Part IX-A1-4 and Part IX-A1-7], SGT and PC 7th Lists of Content submitted to the Committee by the Police, Part IX-A1-16 and Part IX-A1-26.

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need was met effectively by the Support Centre, which made approximately 1,500 callback phone calls”188 [WS8/1933].

  1. The safety advice given to callers was provided on a case-by-case basis, tailored

to the specific details each caller provided. As DCFO(OP) Wong Sze-lut, Sunny confirmed, the guiding principle was to avoid smoke: “If there is heavy smoke outside the unit, the caller will be advised to remain calm inside and seal the door gaps. On the other hand, if the corridor is clear of smoke, the caller will be advised to leave quickly using the nearest smoke-free staircase”189 [WS1/162].

  1. The overriding aim was to ensure safe egress from the fire scene; the FSD did not

specify particular evacuation routes or designate refuge locations within the building, as fire and smoke conditions could change rapidly190 [WS2/1024]. As to whether the rooftop was an advisable place of refuge, DCFO(OP) Wong confirmed there was “no hard and fast rule” — while the fire resulted in fatalities on rooftops, some casualties were also successfully rescued from rooftops191 [WS2/1024]. (iii) The rescue operation

  1. The fundamental principle governing SAR operations was operational feasibility

— specifically, whether prevailing conditions permitted SAR teams to safely access the locations where individuals required assistance. DCFO(NTN) Wong identified four primary determining factors: the status of firefighting progress; the availability of safe access and egress routes; the structural integrity and safety of the affected areas; and the clarity of the location information provided by the caller 192 [WS2/1010]. Order of receipt of assistant calls was not the only

188 CHAN Derek Armstrong 1st WS §28 189 WONG Sze Lut, Sunny 2nd WS §4.3.2 190 WONG Sze Lut, Sunny 3rd WS §4.2.1 191 WONG Sze Lut, Sunny 3rd WS §4.2.2 192 WONG King Man 1st WS §15

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consideration at the time; the SAR teams actively prioritised their deployment decisions based on operational feasibility.

  1. Rescue resources were prioritised for the most severely affected blocks; fewer

resources were allocated to less-affected blocks such as Wang Chi House. By way of illustration, as DCFO(NTN) Wong confirmed: “Wang Chi, we did not deploy as much resources/manpower to Wang Chi House, because it’s somewhat untouched” [Day 11/114/11-20].

  1. SAR teams made multiple attempts to surpass the floors undergoing firefighting

to effect rescue on upper floors. DCFO(NTN) Wong confirmed that “despite challenges from flames, heat, and dense smoke, SAR teams would and did take risks to advance whenever opportunities arose” 193 [WS2/1011]. AD Tang confirmed that “the SAR teams accepted heightened risks at times advancing through burning floors or delaying the use of Breathing Apparatus to expedite their ascent”194 [WS6/1866]. DD Chan further corroborated this, noting instances where “SAR team members accepted heightened levels of risk in order to reach persons reported in distress, including advancing through burning floors or delaying the use of BA while moving upward through staircases filled with hazardous gases”195 [WS8/1935].

  1. Prior to Sector Officers assuming their roles, the firefighting and SAR teams had

already undertaken snatch rescue attempts at various buildings. AD Tang recorded a specific example: “a first responding officer entered Wang Cheong House and attempted to conduct snatch rescues and evacuate residents. However, the officer was compelled to retreat upon reaching the half-staircase landing of the front staircase due to intense heat and smoke conditions and narrowly

193 WONG King Man 1st WS §17 194 TANG Wing Wah 3rd WS §16 195 CHAN Derek Armstrong 1st WS §33

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avoided being unable to withdraw when the front entrance of Wang Cheong House was subsequently blocked by fallen debris and engulfed in flames”196 [WS6/1866]. Separately, CCTV footage from the entrance of Wang Tai House [C6/1] played at the evidential hearing [Day 18/69/1-4], showed that at approximately 1516 hours FSD personnel entered Wang Tai House but were compelled to retreat almost immediately. These incidents illustrate how rapidly conditions deteriorated.

  1. At approximately 1540 hours, the first team cleared a narrow access route into

Wang Cheong House on the ground floor and rescued three unconscious residents from the ground-floor lobby — notwithstanding that the front entrance was being progressively obstructed by descending burning debris197 [WS6/1866; WS1/57]. This was the first confirmed internal rescue, achieved 49 minutes after the first call.

  1. Senior Officers assumed their designated roles as Sector Officers starting from

approximately 1630 hours. The incremental approach with tactical advancement strategy had been initiated at the outset and was consistently maintained throughout. At approximately 1730 hours, an access route to the 2nd floor became available in Wang Cheong House, and the SAR teams took the opportunity to rescue three residents in a unit on a lower floor198 [WS6/1867]. A turntable ladder was deployed to rescue three residents from Unit 202 of Wang Cheong House from outside the building [B10/5161; Day 19/19/22 - 20/17]. AD Tang explained that this rescue operation involved positioning the turntable ladder on a road that was not an EVA and extending the arm horizontally over a considerable distance

196 TANG Wing Wah 3rd WS §17 197 TANG Wing Wah 3rd WS §§16-18; 1st WS §64 198 TANG Wing Wah 3rd WS §§19-20

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to reach the unit, with the loading alarm activating during the operation, requiring the residents to be rescued one by one [Day 19/20/1-17].

  1. At Wang Tai House, at approximately 1930 hours and 2100 hours on 26

November, crews identified and acted upon rescue opportunities, conducting snatch rescues on the 10th floor and 14th floor respectively while fire on lower floors was still severe199[WS6/1867].

  1. In the whole operation, more than 100 persons were rescued from various

locations in the affected buildings. Apart from attending the 347 units reported as requiring FS assistance, all remaining units on all floors of all affected buildings were attended by FS members to check for possible casualties200 [WS1/49]. H4. Evidence on the challenges and difficulties faced by the FSD frontline officers

  1. The operational difficulties and challenges at WFC can be grouped under four

heads, each of which connects to the key contributing factors addressed below.

  1. The first challenge was the falling of bamboo scaffolding blocking entrances and

EVA. Large quantities of burning bamboo, wooden planks and miscellaneous articles continuously fell from height from Wang Cheong House and Wang Tai House, piling up at ground level, blocking front entrances and rear exits of both buildings at the initial stage, engulfing ground-floor lobbies in flames, and severely hindering both resident escape and firefighter access. 407.1. AD Tang recorded that the “process was challenging because fallen objects continued to reignite and advances made through the debris continued to be closed off by more fallen objects,” and that “two firefighters working on

199 TANG Wing Wah 3rd WS §20 200 TANG Wing Wah 1st WS §47

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the periphery were injured by falling objects and required treatment in hospital” 201 [WS1/53-54]. In oral evidence, AD Tang confirmed that falling debris also covered the EVA between the blocks, rendering the designated turntable ladder positions inaccessible. He explained that “in most of the buildings there are EVAs” but that “they have already been covered by debris and other things, and therefore the only location where we can position our TLs... such locations might not no longer be available” [Day 19/22/13-25]. He confirmed that the requirement for EVAs is that they must “be at a distance of no more than 10 metres away from the block” with appropriate loading for fire appliances, but that falling bamboo sticks and debris prevented appliances from accessing these positions [Day 19/22/15 - 24/20]. As a consequence, turntable ladders were positioned on roads around WFC rather than at their designated EVA locations [Day 19/23/1-3]. 407.2. Falling debris also covered part of the EVA, preventing turntable ladders from being positioned at their EVA-designated locations. The operational consequences of this were illustrated by the rescue at Unit 202 of Wang Cheong House described above: because the turntable ladder could not be positioned at the designated EVA close to the building, it had to be deployed on a road further away, requiring the arm to extend horizontally beyond its normal operating angle to reach the unit. AD Tang concluded that “given turntable ladders had already been deployed at available strategic positions for external firefighting around Wang Fuk Court and the EVA near the buildings became inaccessible due to fallen burning scaffolding materials and debris, further reinforcement of turntable ladders, regardless of their operational height, would not have effectively

201 TANG Wing Wah 1st WS §54

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met the operational objectives”202 [WS6/1873]. Two fire appliances were also damaged by falling debris during the operation203 [WS6/1865].

  1. The second challenge was heavy smoke and extreme heat penetrating buildings

via access openings at staircases. 408.1. The fire “spread rapidly into different parts of the buildings through windows of units and corridors suspected to be covered with polystyrene boards and the modified worker access points on staircases, resulting in ignitions and smoke-logging of multiple units and floors simultaneously”204 [WS1/54]. 408.2. Even worse, “the fire could spread with heavy black smoke rushing into the staircases through the modified worker access points on various floors” 205 [WS1/54]. 408.3. Corridors and staircases, the primary escape routes for residents and access routes for firefighters, were invaded by smoke and flames from the exterior at an early stage, in circumstances where the staircase design “should effectively block flame and smoke during fire, with smoke stop doors and fire resisting construction providing sufficient protection” 206 [WS1/55]. In this fire, however, “staircases were invaded by smoke and flames from the exterior early on that resulted in high temperature, dense smoke and very low visibility at the access routes within the buildings, making firefighting operations extremely difficult” 207 [WS1/55].

202 TANG Wing Wah 3rd WS §39 203 TANG Wing Wah 3rd WS §15 204 TANG Wing Wah 1st WS §55 205 TANG Wing Wah 1st WS §55 206 TANG Wing Wah 1st WS §57 207 TANG Wing Wah 1st WS §57

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  1. 4. Firefighters advancing to upper floors found that reignition occurred in

lower levels, “potentially cutting off the retreat routes and making firefighters more dangerous,” requiring them “to move repeatedly between different floors for firefighting” 208 [WS1/47].

  1. The third challenge was the failure of all fire alarms and impairment of the FH/HR

System. 409.1. The FH/HR System in the affected buildings were under repair and the associated pumps were non-functional during the fire. Water fed from pumping appliances through FS inlets on the ground floor “could not be effectively boosted up by the FH/HR systems to the upper floors (i.e. around 20–23/F upwards) for very effective firefighting”209 [WS2/974]. 409.2. To address this, numerous compact portable pumps (approximately 80 kg each) were deployed for water relay to upper floors. As AD Tang explained: “Bringing the compact portable pump (about 80 kg) to the upper floors, in addition to our basic personal protective equipment (about 23 kg), requires considerable physical effort from our frontline crews” 210 [WS2/974]. In oral evidence, AD Tang provided a more precise account of the operational constraint: without the building’s own booster pump, relying solely on the major pump, “the fire hose could still produce water up to the 20th floor. So for floors above the 20th floor, we needed to use portable pumps to pressurise the system so that the water could be used to put out the fire on floors above the 20th floor” [Day 19/18/4-11]. The portable pumps therefore needed to be transported “about 10-odd floors” up staircases that were only “1 metre wide” and “pitch dark” [Day 19/17/17-18/14]. When

208 TANG Wing Wah 1st WS §36 209 TANG Wing Wah 2nd WS §31 210 TANG Wing Wah 2nd WS §31

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asked whether the deactivation of the FH/HR System caused significant impact to the operation, AD Tang confirmed: “There was an impact, but it could be overcome. Yes. An impact that could be overcome” [Day 19/18/18-19].

  1. The fourth challenge was the unprecedented simultaneous multi-block external

façade fire. The fire quickly spread upward through the re-entrant, trapping hot air, flames and flammable gases, allowing them to rise rapidly from lower to upper floors within individual blocks before spreading laterally to adjacent blocks due to unfavourable weather conditions. On the day of the fire, an east to southeast wind was blowing at about 14 km/hr at Tai Po Kau wind station, relative humidity of 40% was recorded at 1500 hours, and the Hong Kong Observatory issued a Red Fire Danger Warning211 [WS1/56]. Normal building fire design assumes fire originates internally and relies on passive fire safety provisions to contain spread. At WFC the fire originated externally and bypassed these provisions entirely.

  1. Taken together, these four challenges created conditions never previously

encountered in Hong Kong. The firefighters gave everything during the firefighting and rescue operations; they rescued over 100 persons, attended all 347 reported assistance locations and all remaining units, sustained nine hospitalisations among their own ranks, and lost one of their own. That they could not prevent the rapid spread of fire and heavy casualties is attributable to the presence of the contributing factors addressed below, factors for which the primary responsibility lies overwhelmingly with private actors.

211 TANG Wing Wah 1st WS §61

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H5. Evidence on the setting up of the Command Post for the Disaster Victim Identification Unit (“DVIU”) on 2025.11.28 and DVIU’s operation

  1. The DVIU was established in 1975 and operates under the command of the

Detective Training Centre, following the mode and standard of operation set out by INTERPOL. Its duty is to assist the Consultant Forensic Pathologist-in-charge in the identification of disaster victims in major incidents for investigation and subsequent court proceedings212 [WS1/270]. The DVIU reserves are trained to discharge duties at Command Post (including administration and logistics support), Recovery Teams, Dead Body Collection Point and Mortuary Team. After training, members return to normal policing duties in their parent formations but are mobilised when necessary213 [WS1/271].

  1. For the WFC incident, a total of 605 DVIU officers were turned out: 1

Superintendent, 6 Chief Inspectors, 153 Senior Inspectors/Inspectors, 1 Police Station Sergeant, 71 Police Sergeants and 373 Police Constables214 [WS1/275]. On 28 November 2025, the Command Post was set up at Tai Po Baptist Public School with 64 members deployed; the Dead Body Collection Point was set up on the ground floor of the WFC Car Park with 64 members deployed; and the designated Mortuary was Fu Shan Public Mortuary in Tai Wai with 56 members deployed. A total of 94 Recovery Teams were formed, each comprising 4 members (1 Team Leader, 1 Recording Officer/Photographer and at least 2 Recovery Handlers), involving 376 officers215 [WS1/275].

  1. The recovery operation proceeded in structured phases.
  2. 1. Between 29 November and 3 December 2025, Recovery Teams were

deployed into the seven affected buildings to conduct the first and

212 CHENG Ka Chun (Supt, Det Training Centre, Police) 1st WS §§5-6 213 CHENG Ka Chun 1st WS §8 214 CHENG Ka Chun 1st WS §17 215 CHENG Ka Chun 1st WS §18

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preliminary search from the ground floor to the rooftop, covering all flats (except 41 flats with potential safety concerns pending clearance by the HA), electricity metre rooms, garbage rooms, corridors, staircases and all other common areas. Designated areas were assigned to 8 to 10 Recovery Teams, led by a Zone Leader, to coordinate search efforts and ensure thoroughness216 [WS1/275]. 414.2. On 3 December 2025, a second search was conducted against 12 flats where no missing persons had been found in the first search, together with the 41 previously inaccessible flats which had by then been cleared safe217 [WS1/275]. 414.3. Between 4 December and 9 December 2025, Recovery Teams searched for any body or body part covered in soot, fallen scaffoldings and rubble scattered around the estate grounds, and checked the lift shafts of the affected buildings. Scaffolding adhering to outer walls inaccessible to Recovery Teams was searched with the assistance of Small Unmanned Aircraft Teams from the Police218 [WS1/276].

  1. On 29 November 2025, no body or body part was recovered. From 30 November

to 9 December 2025, a total of 74 bodies and/or body parts were found: Wang Cheong House (31), Wang Tai House (36) and Wang Sun House (7). No body or body part was found at Wang Yan House, Wang Tao House, Wang Kin House or Wang Shing House219 [WS1/276].

  1. Each recovery was assigned a Unique Body Reference Number (“UBRN”).

Documentation was completed using either paper or electronic Disaster Victim

216 CHENG Ka Chun 1st WS §19 217 CHENG Ka Chun 1st WS §20 218 CHENG Ka Chun 1st WS §21 219 CHENG Ka Chun 1st WS §24

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Recovery Booklets linked to the Major Incident Investigation and Disaster Support System. Four tags bearing the UBRN were tied to a peg beside the body, the body itself, the inner body bag and the outer body bag respectively. Bodies were placed in an inner bag and then an outer bag before removal to the Dead Body Collection Point, where registry, initial pathological examination, photo- taking and documentary checking were conducted before transportation to Fu Shan Public Mortuary220 [WS1/272, 276].

  1. The breakdown of the 168 fatalities is as follows: 106 fatalities (including S/N

73) were recovered by the FSD; 61 fatalities were handled by the DVIU (S/N 103-153, 158-165, 167 and 168); and 1 fatality (S/N 166) was recovered by the forensic pathologist (not part of the DVIU) on 19 December 2025 221 [WS10/1952-1953].

  1. Of the 74 suspected human tissue samples collected by the DVIU, 12 were found

to be non-human (animal substance) and 2 were animal but not human tissues. Among the remaining 60, after further examination by pathologists, odontology experts and anthropologists, additional body parts were retrieved (that is, one bag of body and/or body parts carrying human tissues from more than one victim), resulting in a total of 65 identifiable bodies and/or body parts. Of these, 60 victims were identified by forensic methods of DNA and/or fingerprint comparison and/or odontology; 4 body parts were matched to 3 of those 60 victims (S/N 73, 112 and 119); and 1 body part (a skull found beside a body part confirmed by DNA to be S/N 112) was identified by circumstantial evidence as S/N 112’s daughter (S/N 167)222 [WS1/277-278; Day 12/151/18 - 152/15].

220 CHENG Ka Chun 1st WS §§11-12, 21-22 221 CHENG Ka Chun 2nd WS §§4-9 222 CHENG Ka Chun 1st WS §27

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toll does not exceed 168: “I think it’s impossible to find evidence that there is more than 168 victims. The reason is that excluding persons reported missing by their relatives, and also missing persons with no enquiries made, when we conducted this search... we have searched every inch of the scene... there would not be more than 168 victims” [Day 12/152/22 - 153/11]. H6. Evidence on casualties and damage (i) The passing of Senior Fireman Ho Wai-ho

line of duty during firefighting operations at WFC on 26 November 2025.

Wang Cheong House. The instruction came from PStnO Liao, who was himself directed by SStnO Hui in response to an FSCC assistance call message received at approximately 1503 hours223 [WS2/990].

than his assigned destination of Wang Cheong House. The evidence is that he had, out of compassion, stopped to assist an elderly resident in a wheelchair, became separated from his team, and mistook Wang Tai House for Wang Cheong House.

time SFn Ho entered. The standard ECP procedure (two floors below the rescue floor) could not yet be implemented because no BA team had been assigned to Wang Tai House at that stage; all attempts were directed at Wang Cheong House [Day 18/72/11-15]. 223 HUI Kin On 1st WS §13

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control point, his Firefighter Locator System (“FLS”) Personal Transmitter (“PT”) red magnetic key was not removed and his PT was not activated. Even if the PT had been activated, the signal from SFn Ho’s position on the 30th and 31st floors of Wang Tai House “might not have been received by the HHR on G/F of either Wang Cheong House or Wang Tai House due to the long transmission distance, as well as environmental conditions and anything that might cause interference or reflection of PT signal”224 [WS4/1811]. This constraint of the existing FLS system for high-rise scenarios is addressed in Section O5(ii) below.

no defects; the BA set was in good working condition225 [WS4/1808].

Mayday, Mayday, ...... 而家被困係30 樓”. SStnO Hui responded via R/T asking “你喺咩位置” but could not hear any response 226 [WS2/991]. PStnO Liao subsequently confirmed to SStnO Hui at the roundabout near Wang Cheong House that the Mayday sender was SFn Ho of ST/LRU227 [WS2/992].

conditions deteriorated rapidly shortly after Fn HO arrived on the 25/F” and that “Equipped with proper PPE and BA, Fn HO was fully capable of escaping from Wang Tai House upon noting the deteriorating situation. However, it is believed that he stayed in Wang Tai House in an attempt to assist the evacuation of others” (IFITF Report, §§9.2.8.4 and 9.2.8.5 [ER1/193]). At approximately 1555 hours, DO Lam, whilst conducting assessment of hazards at the roundabout near the 224 TUNG Wing Kei (Div. Officer BA, FSD) 1st WS §7.7 225 TUNG Wing Kei 1st WS §6.4 226 HUI Kin On 1st WS §19 227 HUI Kin On 1st WS §21

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northeast façade of Wang Tai House, noted SFn Ho unconscious, lying on a quantity of burning bamboo sticks and debris at the open ground in front of the front entrance of Wang Tai House228 [WS2/1002]. SFn Ho was believed to have exited the building via a broken window at the 31st Floor (IFITF Report, §9.2.8.6 [ER1/194]). At approximately 1600 hours, crew members removed SFn Ho from the burning debris and conveyed him to ambulance personnel229 [WS2/1003]. From the Mayday at 1522 hours to recovery at 1555 hours was 33 minutes; from recovery to removal was a further 5 minutes.

  1. Post-fire examination of SFn Ho’s BA set confirmed: the cylinder valve and

handwheel were damaged, consistent with severe impact; no burn marks appeared on the BA set; the BA Set Tally was still attached; the PT red magnetic key was still inserted; and the alphaSCOUT was found inoperable due to water damage. The BA set was recovered from the waterlogged Roof Floor of Wang Tai House at approximately 1733 hours on 27 November 2025, where the floor was submerged to a depth of approximately 10 to 20 cm. Rust accumulation and water infiltration into the alphaSCOUT motherboard were identified, consistent with approximately 16 hours of submersion230 [WS4/1808-1811]. The alphaSCOUT data is irrecoverably lost; the exact chronology of SFn Ho’s final minutes cannot be established.

  1. The IFITF concluded that:
  2. 1. “[T]he evidence indicates that [S]Fn HO was engaged in a valiant effort

to escape or obtain help under extreme conditions. His incapacitation — whether primarily due to smoke inhalation or traumatic injuries sustained

228 LAM Ho Chun 1st WS §10 229 LAM Ho Chun 1st WS §11 230 TUNG Wing Kei 1st WS §§6.4-6.6, 7.5-7.7

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during a fall — ultimately rendered him unable to remove himself from danger, leading to his tragic passing” (IFITF Report, §9.2.8.8 [ER1/194]); 429.2. The confirmed cause of death of [S]Fn HO was determined to be the adverse effects of fire and inhalation of fire fumes and smoke. Although the PPE was severely damaged due to prolonged contact with hot or burning objects, it continued to serve its intended purpose” (IFITF Report, §9.2.8.9 [ER1/194]); 429.3. “According to the Autopsy Report, [S]Fn HO died from inhalation of fire fumes and extensive burns, with head and neck injuries as other significant conditions contributing to the death.” (IFITF Report, §9.2.9.1 [ER1/194]).

  1. Finally, the Government endorses the IFITF’s final remark that “[S]Fn HO

demonstrated exceptional bravery and a deep sense of duty while responding to the incident. Despite the challenging and life-threatening conditions, he prioritized the safety of others over his own, exemplifying the highest standards of selflessness and dedication.” (IFITF Report, §9.2.9.2 [ER1/194]). (ii) Other casualties and the Police’s Casualty Enquiry Unit (“CEU”)

  1. Parallel to the DVIU’s physical recovery and identification work, the Police’s

CEU served as the public-facing interface between the families of those affected and investigative machinery. Its role was to receive, collate and act upon enquiries from members of the public who believed their relatives or friends may have been involved in the fire, and to match that information against the casualty data being generated by the DVIU, hospitals and other sources.

  1. As of 1800 hours on 13 January 2026, the CEU had received a total of 489

missing person reports. Of these: 196 reports related to 166 missing persons confirmed dead in the incident (165 by forensic examination, 1 by circumstantial

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evidence); 40 reports related to 37 missing persons confirmed injured; 31 reports were non-pursuable due to insufficient information for further investigation; 1 was a misunderstanding; 31 related to individuals confirmed to have passed away before the fire; 6 related to individuals who had left Hong Kong before the fire; and 184 were confirmed safe231 [WS1/238, 240-244].

  1. Nine firefighters who were carrying out firefighting and Search and Rescue

Operations inside the blocks required hospitalisation due to heat exhaustion, physical exhaustion, breathing difficulties, smoke inhalation or being struck by falling objects232 [WS1/55].

  1. The CEU operation was concluded on 26 January 2026, having operated

continuously for two months. The sustained operation of the CEU across three progressively scaled-down phases ensured that every pursuable missing person report was resolved, and that the families of the deceased and injured were identified and notified through a single, coordinated channel. (iii) Damage to property

  1. The fire caused extensive damage to property across the WFC estate. Seven of

the eight residential blocks were directly affected by fire; only Wang Chi House was spared from direct flame involvement, though it was not immune from the effects of smoke, water and falling debris in the surrounding area.

  1. Across the seven affected buildings, a total of 1,736 flats were assessed. The

IFITF Report records that the interiors of 924 flats sustained varying degrees of fire damage, while the interiors of the remaining 812 flats remained relatively unaffected, notwithstanding that the exterior of the buildings had been damaged by the high temperature with prolonged exposure to fire (IFITF Report §5.3.1

231 TSANG Shuk Yin (Chief Supt, CIIB, Police) §26, Annex 232 TANG Wing Wah 1st WS §60

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[ER1/62]). The damage ranged from total destruction of interior contents in units directly penetrated by fire, to severe smoke damage, water damage from firefighting operations, and structural concerns arising from prolonged exposure to extreme heat.

  1. The FSD conducted an internal assessment of all 1,736 units from a firefighting

perspective. The DFS confirmed that this assessment was “just from the angle of firefighting” and constituted “an internal assessment by the FSD” that did not examine the buildings from a structural perspective [Day 19/104/16 – 105/10]. The IFITF also makes clear that such “figures and information about the residential flats…are only recording the observations of the interior condition of the flats, but not the assessment on the overall habituality of the concerned flats and the entire Wang Fuk Court” (IFITF Report §5.3.4 [ER1/63]).

  1. Beyond the residential units, the fire caused significant damage to the common

areas of the estate, including corridors, staircases, lift lobbies and rooftops. The bamboo scaffolding enclosing the buildings was largely consumed by the fire or collapsed onto the ground and surrounding roadways. The estate’s communal facilities, landscaping and vehicular access areas were also affected by the accumulation of burnt debris, fire-suppression water and operational footprint of the extended firefighting and recovery operation. The scale of property damage rendered WFC uninhabitable in the immediate aftermath, displacing the residents and necessitating the emergency accommodation arrangements described above.

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PART III(B): START OF THE FIRE I. WORKERS SMOKING ONSITE

  1. As mentioned, the IFITF concluded that the fire was most likely accidental in

nature, caused by a glowing source such as a lit cigarette end igniting combustible materials at the flat roof outside Flats 104 and 105 of Wang Cheong House.

  1. This section examines the evidence on the prevalence of workers smoking at the

WFC construction site, the circumstantial link between smoking and the ignition of the fire, the primary responsibility of the contractor and PMC for site management, and the supervisory role of the LD.

  1. As will be seen, the primary responsibility for this contributing factor lies

squarely with Prestige as principal contractor, whose failure to enforce an effective no-smoking regime persisted despite repeated complaints from residents, documented observations by the PMC, and warnings issued by the LD.

  1. Nevertheless, having regard to the WFC Fire, the Government acknowledges that

the pre-fire regulatory framework warrants a review: smoking at construction sites was not an offence per se, and the threshold for the LD to exercise its prohibition power under Regulation 53 of the CSSR was high as it targets specific scenarios requiring the simultaneous presence threshold conditions. Such constraint in statutory control is being addressed through a legislative programme already underway.

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I1. Prevalence of workers smoking onsite (i) The various complaints made by the WFC residents / IO to Prestige / Will Power, the PMC and LD

  1. The evidence throughout the evidential hearings establishes that workers smoking

at the WFC construction site was a persistent and well-documented problem throughout the renovation period.

  1. The LD received nine complaints about smoking at the RMAA sites of WFC

before the fire, lodged via multiple channels including the OSH Complaint Platform, email, OSH complaint hotline, and 1823 hotline 233 [WS1/352; WS1/356-376].

  1. The PMC received repeated smoking complaints from residents, both by

telephone and in person. Lok Sin Ying of ISS confirmed that residents would “complain by phone sometimes, and they would come face to face sometimes” [Day 6/122/7 – 123/11]. The PMC maintained a standalone Renovation Complaint Record logbook which contained multiple smoking entries, including workers smoking on the scaffolding [C1-1/749]. The recorded follow-up against these was consistently limited to “Inform Prestige” [Day 7/99/17-23].

  1. Smoking complaints were raised in the WhatsApp group “宏福苑大維修” which

served as a communication platform among the IO, ISS, Prestige and Will Power, as evidenced by the messages at [F4/1041, 1131, 1134, 1166, 1263, 1268, 1269, 1284, 1285]. Tsui Moon Come, the then Chairperson of the MC, confirmed in oral evidence that “there were many complaints from residents” in this regard [Day 14/92/11-12].

233 LI Man Pong 1st WS §62; LAM Sau Ching (Div. OSO, LD) 1st WS §§6-79

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meetings, of which the PMC kept the minutes. These records document a persistent pattern across multiple months: on 12 September 2024, the IO raised workers smoking and proposed penalties with photo evidence; on 12 October 2024, Prestige blacklisted a scaffolder for smoking and not wearing a safety harness; on 4 January 2025, the IO again reminded Prestige to ensure no smoking on scaffolding; and on 15 March 2025, smoking was found to be persisting, and the IO gave Prestige one month to improve, with a designated smoking area to be set up and further breaches to be fined per occurrence234 [WS2/1268; C1-1/651]; [Day 8/44/22 - 45/15].

deadline, Cheng Tsz-ying (Security Supervisor of ISS) confirmed “Not much improvement” [Day 8/45/6-18].

Wong Pak-shing, a security guard, confirmed that from the start of the renovation works to the day of the fire, he personally took approximately four to five complaints about Prestige workers smoking onsite, and on one occasion went to Wang Yan House and found Prestige workers smoking near the 1st floor, shouting up from the ground floor to ask them to stop [WS2/1239]. Cheng confirmed that she “knew that there were construction workers smoking and there were complaints” and that she had personally seen “construction workers smoking” [Day 8/74/22 – 75/16]. 234 Cheng Tsz-ying 1st WS §10

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(ii) The presence of photographic / video, contemporaneous and other factual evidence showing workers smoking onsite

  1. Beyond the complaints, direct evidence of smoking at the site was recovered after

the fire. Prestige’s own in-house disciplinary measures provide further evidence of the recurring nature of the problem. Lam Sau-ching of the LD confirmed that Prestige had “in-house rules for prohibition of smoking on the site” under which “the worker would be fined by PC&E if he/she was found smoking on the site for the first time” and “if the worker was found smoking on the site again, he/she would not be allowed to work on the site anymore”235 [WS1/359]. SO-I Kwan of the LD was told by Prestige that “a worker had been banned from working on the site for violating the in-house rule of smoking” 236 [WS1/364]. The existence of these disciplinary measures confirms that smoking was sufficiently prevalent to require formal internal sanction.

  1. Lam’s witness statement stated that, on the basis of the observations made during

the inspections at WFC, “there is no cogent basis to suggest that smoking was prevalent in the renovation site at WFC” 237 [WS1/383]. Her evidence has to be understood in the context of the inspections conducted by reference to the narrow threshold requirements under Regulation 53 of the CSSR. In oral evidence, Lam candidly accepted the need for improvement in the initiative undertaken by the LD at WFC under existing legislation. When it was put to her that not personally seeing anyone smoking “doesn’t mean that nobody ever smoked there,” Lam fairly agreed. When it was further suggested that LD “could not gather the evidence successfully,” Lam confirmed: “Yes, you can put it this way. We could not get the evidence” [Day 16/13/19 - 14/11]. This is not to detract from the evidence from the complaints, CCTV footage, audio recording, Prestige’s own disciplinary record, and the PMC’s first-hand observations which now

235 LAM Sau Ching 1st WS §16 236 LAM Sau Ching 1st WS §33 237 LAM Sau Ching 1st WS §95

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collectively establishes that workers smoking at the WFC construction site was prevalent throughout the renovation period. However, the point remains that such evidence alone would not suffice for the purpose of Regulation 53 of the CSSR: see Section I4 below. I2. How workers smoking onsite resulted in start of the fire (i) The relevant factual evidence

  1. The fire originated from the flat roof outside Flats 104 and 105 of Wang Cheong

House. CCTV footage and videos taken by members of the public point consistently to that location as the place where the initial fire took hold.

  1. The debris excavated at the origin of the fire contained burnt remnants of carton

paper boxes and other rubbish, together with cigarette ends. The accumulation of combustible waste materials at the point of origin, combined with the presence of cigarette ends, provides the evidential link between smoking and the ignition of the fire. (ii) The IFITF’s investigations

  1. The fire originated from the flat roof outside Flats 104 and 105 of Wang Cheong

House. CCTV footage and videos taken by members of the public point consistently to that location as the place where the initial fire took hold.

  1. As summariesd above, the IFITF concluded that the fire originated from the flat

roof outside Flats 104 and 105 of Wang Cheong House (IFITF Report §§1.3.1, 6.1.1 [ER1/14, 73]). Excavations at the suspected point of origin revealed debris up to 2 metres high, consisting of construction materials “such as safety nets, toe- boards, polystyrene window covers, carton paper boxes and backing paper from mosaic tiles” (IFITF Report §1.3.2 [ER1/14]). The accumulation of these

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combustible materials in the area “could have served as fuel for the fire” (IFITF Report §6.1.6 [ER1/74]).

  1. Two cigarette ends were discovered at the site (IFITF Report §1.3.2 [ER1/14]).

Evidence of smoking at the construction site was widespread: numerous cigarette ends were discovered on the bamboo scaffolding of Wang Chi House; CCTV footage captured construction workers smoking on the roof floor of Wang Cheong House; and at least five occupants of Wang Cheong House had occasionally noticed the smell of smoke or the presence of cigarette butts on the scaffolding (IFITF Report §6.1.8 [ER1/74]). More broadly, 105 out of 2,011 residents who responded to statements and questionnaires reported “witnessing smoking, smelling cigarette smoke or noticing cigarette ends within Wang Fuk Court during the renovation period” (IFITF Report §6.1.8, fn 64 [ER1/74]). I3. The primary and supervisory responsibilities for such contributing factor (i) The regulatory and supervisory regime for workers smoking onsite

  1. The principal legislative provision governing smoking at construction sites at the

material time was Regulation 53 of the CSSR, which empowers the Commissioner for Labour to issue a written order prohibiting smoking and the use of naked lights at a construction site “where, in any construction site, any flammable liquid or any mixture containing any such liquid or any substance or thing which in the opinion of the Commissioner involves danger from fire is used or intended to be used.” A contractor responsible for a site in which such a prohibition is in effect must take “such steps to enforce the prohibition as the Commissioner may by notice direct.” Failure to comply is an offence punishable by a maximum fine of $400,000 for a contractor and $150,000 for a worker.

  1. The LD’s prevailing interpretation of Regulation 53 of the CSSR required the

coexistence of all three elements of the fire triangle (a source of ignition, fuel and

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oxygen) at the same place of work simultaneously. Li Man-pong of the LD stated: “According to OSOs’ training, ‘involves danger from fire’ in regulation 53 of the CSSR means that all three elements of a fire triangle (i.e. a source of ignition, fuel and oxygen) are found to coexist at the same time at a place of work”238 [WS1/347]. In actual daily operation, this refers to the coexistence of (i) flammable liquid / substance / thing and (ii) naked lights for hot work / heats / smoking, or them being in proximity of each other [WS1/347]. He further confirmed that “the coexistence of these conditions is rarely seen on site, making the issuance of prohibition notices for smoking quite uncommon” 239 [WS1/347].

  1. The consequence of this interpretation was a high threshold for enforcement. No

prosecutions have been initiated under Regulation 53 of the CSSR in the past decade240 [WS1/353]. When asked whether the ban had ever been imposed, Murphy Yuen of the LD confirmed from memory that it had been imposed on some occasion, but no prosecution had been initiated under Regulation 53 of the CSSR for the past decade [Day 16/94/19-22]. No prohibition of smoking notice was issued in respect of WFC241 [WS1/384].

  1. Li Man-pong confirmed in oral evidence that even the presence of foam boards

on the scaffolding would not, in the LD’s pre-fire analysis, have triggered the threshold for a smoking ban, because foam boards are “combustible but they’re not flammable materials” within the meaning of Regulation 53 of the CSSR [Day 16/69/20 - 70/2]. The pre-fire regulatory position was therefore that smoking at a construction site was not an offence per se; it could only be prohibited where flammable substances were present and danger from fire was involved.

238 LI Man-pong 1st WS §43 239 LI Man-pong 1st WS §44 240 LI Man-pong 1st WS §63 241 LAM Sau Ching 1st WS §96

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(ii) The primary responsibilities of Prestige and the PMC, including site management

  1. Under section 6A of the FIUO and section 6(1) of the OSHO, the employer,

including the principal contractor, must so far as reasonably practicable ensure the safety and health of all employees at work. This encompasses the provision and maintenance of safe systems of work, provision of information, instruction, training and supervision, and maintenance of a working environment that is safe and without risks to health.

  1. Prestige bore primary responsibility for site safety management at WFC. The

evidence establishes that Prestige had actual knowledge that workers continued to smoke outside the designated area notwithstanding the in-house rules. As mentioned in Section I1(i) above, smoking complaints were raised directly with Prestige through multiple channels: residents complained to the PMC by telephone and in person, and the PMC proceeded to liaise with Prestige; complaints were raised in the WhatsApp group which included Prestige as a participant; and smoking was raised repeatedly at the regular renovation works meetings attended by Prestige.

  1. Yet the smoking persisted throughout the renovation period; the PMC confirmed

“not much improvement” even after the March 2025 ultimatum imposed by the IO as mentioned above.

  1. More broadly, Lam Sau-ching of the LD confirmed that the contractor bears

responsibility for overall site safety management. It was “not acceptable” for workers not to have undergone safety induction training, and that “the contractors hire the safety officers, and the safety officers do have the duty about safety on site” [Day 16/12/18 – 13/5].

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combustible debris at the point of origin. The failure to ensure frequent clearance of construction garbage and debris from the flat roof adjacent to Flats 104 and 105 was a site management failure squarely within Prestige’s primary responsibility as principal contractor.

contractual obligations under the Property Management Agreement to identify and follow up on fire risks. Cheng of ISS confirmed that “in relation to fire risk complaints it seems ISS has a contractual obligation to record, investigate and liaise and follow up on the matter with the relevant government department” [Day 8/34/10-16]. The ISS Security Manual treated identification of potential fire risks as a core purpose of patrol [H1-3/6639]. However, ISS’s actual response to smoking complaints was limited to relaying them to Prestige. Wong Pak-shing of ISS agreed that the management office was “playing the role of passing on the message” [Day 7/100/21 - 101/11]. Cheng accepted: “We simply cannot control the Prestige workers. We cannot really dismiss them” [Day 8/47/13-25]. She further accepted that ISS “hasn’t taken any further action to deal with this” beyond referring complaints to Prestige [Day 8/48/1-5], and that ISS had “the responsibility to make sure everything is in order” [Day 8/52/2-7]. (iii) The Government’s supervisory responsibilities

health legislation to protect employees at work. Its professional expertise is in OSH, not building fire safety. As Murphy Yuen of the LD confirmed: “Materials such as foam boards used to seal residents’ windows are consequently not the focus of LD’s inspections. Also, fire safety measures in public places, including 173

firefighting equipment, fire alarms, staircases servicing as means of escape, etc., are not within LD’s purview”242 [WS1/325].

  1. The Chairman identified an apparent ‘oddity’ in this arrangement: “I find

something odd. So the Labour Department focuses on OSH, occupational safety and health, so it’s about protecting workers. But the fire hazard has to do with a different group of people: the residents. Getting the Labour Department to take charge of such matters at the policy level seems weird.” Li Man-pong responded by clarifying that he was speaking from the workers’ perspective: “a fire hazard for the public also means fire hazard for workers” [Day 16/66/5-17]. Counsel for the Committee agreed with Li that “fire prevention, if this responsibility is put on you, it’s not fair to the Labour Department” and that “government departments should collectively play a monitoring and supervisory role”; Li agreed [Day 16/67/9-15].

  1. The LD’s enforcement regime operates on a risk-based inspection model. Taking

into account the nature and risk levels of work processes and scale of works, the inspection frequency is generally set at one to two months243 [WS1/338; Day 16/3/19-23].

  1. For WFC specifically, OSOs conducted inspections in a frequency “higher than

the normal frequency of once every one to two months” (i.e. almost every month [Day 16/5/11-17]) as a result of the number of complaints received244 [WS1/339].

  1. The LD’s enforcement options range across four tiers: prosecution, suspension

notices, improvement notices, and warning letters. Officers exercise professional

242 YUEN Tsz Lok 1st WS §39 243 LI Man Pong 1st WS §22 244 LI Man Pong 1st WS §24

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judgment, discretion and common sense in selecting the appropriate response based on the gravity of the offence [D1/1724]. (iv) The actions taken by the LD at WFC

  1. The LD conducted 16 inspections plus one surprise surveillance visit at WFC

between July 2024 and 20 November 2025245 [WS1/356; WS13/2108].

  1. All inspections were conducted on a surprise basis; no prior notice was given to

contractors, RIs or building management246 [WS13/2107-2108]. This practice was confirmed by internal LD email: “inspections of workplaces shall be surprise in nature. No inspection schedules shall be disclosed to any third party, including consultants, in advance” [D2/1981].

  1. Regarding the smoking complaints specifically, the consistent finding on every

inspection was that no worker was observed smoking in working areas. Lam’s evidence is that “no worker was found smoking on the site during the inspection” 247 [WS1/357]. Workers were found smoking “at the designated smoking area set up by PC&E at the open ground between Wang Chi House and Wang Shing House”248 [WS1/359]. On some inspections, cigarette stubs were found in common areas of the estate, though it was unclear whether they were left by workers or others [Day 16/13/12-14].

  1. The LD issued three Construction Site Inspection Reports (CSIRs) dated 2

August 2024, 9 August 2024 and 2 September 2024 reminding Prestige that steps shall be taken to ensure that “smoking or the use of naked lights is prohibited in

245 LAM Sau Ching 1st WS §6; 3rd WS §7 246 LAM Sau Ching 3rd WS §§5-6 247 LAM Sau Ching 1st WS §10 248 LAM Sau Ching 1st WS §15

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a site where flammable liquid or any mixture containing such liquid or any substance or thing which involves danger from fire is used”249 [WS1/358–360].

  1. The LD also initiated criminal prosecution against Prestige and its scaffold sub-

contractor Gain Profit Shed Industry Limited (“GPSI”) for working-at-height offences, resulting in three summonses. On 3 October 2025, Prestige was convicted and fined $18,000, and GPSI was convicted and fined $12,000 250 [WS1/365]. (v) The role of the FSD

  1. Workers smoking at construction sites generally does not fall within the

enforcement purview of the FSD. When the LD referred 251 the smoking complaint to the FSD in July 2024, the FSD’s reply was that “the subject matter is not under the jurisdiction of FSD. You may wish to refer the case to the relevant department” [D1/930].

  1. AD Yung confirmed this position in oral evidence. When asked which

department should handle complaints about smoking on construction sites, he stated that such complaints should go to the LD [Day 17/6/22-23]. He acknowledged, however, that the FSD’s statutory concern under section 7(c) of the FSO “goes beyond just active provisions” and that the broad definition of “fire hazard” under section 2 of the FSO (Cap. 95) encompasses “matter or circumstances which materially increases the likelihood of fire or the danger to life or property” [Day 17/9/17-10/13]. AD Yung accepted that the FSD’s concern

249 LAM Sau Ching 1st WS §§13, 18, 23 250 LAM Sau Ching 1st WS fn 6 251 For the avoidance of doubt, the LD’s referral to FSD did not reflect any view on the LD’s part that smoking at construction sites fell outside its own purview. The referral to the FSD was made because the complainant had expressly invoked the Fire Services Ordinance in the complaint, as confirmed in Lam’s oral evidence [Day 16/16/8-10].

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therefore extends beyond active fire safety provisions to any matter that materially increases fire risk [Day 17/10/17-21]. I4. Systemic and/or operational weaknesses on the regulatory level

  1. The evidence reveals three areas requiring review and improvements.
  2. First, the high threshold under Regulation 53 of the CSSR meant that smoking

per se was not an offence at construction sites, and no enforcement tool was available to the LD unless the threshold conditions under Regulation 53 were simultaneously present. This was a structural design of the existing legislative framework with regard to the policy intent – the CSSR focuses on workers’ safety rather than smoking. No prosecutions have been initiated under Regulation 53 of the CSSR in the past decade252 [WS1/353], demonstrating that the threshold was consistently rarely met across the industry, not merely at WFC. The result was that the Government did not have a specific regulatory mechanism in place to tackle the fire risk posed by workers smoking on scaffolding as such.

  1. Second, the LD officers were unable to gather direct evidence of workers

smoking in working areas during surprise inspections. The nature of the act (transient, easily concealed upon the approach of inspectors) made detection inherently difficult during inspections that OSOs conducted. In this regard, whilst the “could not be justified” language used in the LD’s complaint-disposal records might appear inapt when considered on a standalone basis focusing on the act of smoking per se, properly construed the conclusion that a complaint “could not be justified” in the context of Regulation 53 of the CSSR reflected only that the specific statutory threshold for enforcement action was not met on the evidence

252 LI Man Pong 1st WS §63

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available at the time; it did not mean (albeit that it may be perceived to suggest) the complaint was baseless

  1. In direct response to the identified regulatory constraint, the Government has on

19 May 2026 introduced into the Legislative Council a comprehensive legislative package [D4/1988-2003, 2004], as also outlined in Murphy Yuen’s oral evidence [Day 16/92-93], proposing to: 482.1. amend the Smoking (Public Health) Ordinance (Cap. 371) to designate all construction sites, irrespective of size, as no-smoking areas and to impose a fixed penalty of HK$3,000 under the Fixed Penalty (Smoking Offences) Ordinance (Cap. 600) on any person smoking at a construction site [D4/1990-1991]. 482.2. amend the Fixed Penalty (Smoking Offences) Ordinance (Cap. 600) to empower an OSO to issue fix penalty notices to a person who is committing or has committed the smoking offence [D4/1992]. 482.3. amend Regulation 53 of the CSSR to impose a positive duty on contractors responsible for a construction site to take all reasonable measures to ensure that no person smokes or carries a lighted specified smoking product (e.g. cigarettes) or uses naked light to light a specified smoking product in a construction site [D4/1991].

  1. The combined effect of these improvement measures is expected to

fundamentally alter the enforcement landscape. 483.1. First and foremost, the constraint which was the principal obstacle to enforcement at WFC, namely that smoking per se was not an offence under the OSH legislation, requiring the LD to prove the simultaneous presence

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of flammable materials before any enforcement action could be taken [Day 16/30/25 - 31/5], is being addressed. As a result, enforcement actions may be taken by the LD once any person is found to be smoking at a construction site. It is no longer necessary for the threshold conditions under Regulation 53 of the CSSR to be established before the LD may take enforcement actions. 483.2. Secondly, even if the officers of LD could not see anyone smoking at a construction site or could not ascertain the identity of the person smoking at a construction site, they may still take enforcement actions if the contractors fail to take all reasonable measures to prevent smoking at a construction site. As Lam of the LD confirmed: “After the Construction Sites (Safety) Regulation is amended, with a smoking ban in effect on the construction site, the contractor will be under a duty to prevent smoking. Even when officers do not see any workers smoking, we can rely on photos from residents or other people, and that will be enough evidence for us to pursue prosecution” [Day 16/55/24 - 56/16]. 483.3. Thirdly, with the above obstacle of the threshold conditions removed, evidence of smoking (including photographic and video evidence from residents which could previously only serve as corroborative material [Day 16/31/17]) will become a sufficient basis for prosecution of the new offence [Day 16/100/10-12]. Yuen of the LD also confirmed the same: “If smoking is to be banned, then through the information given by the complainant, we can use the evidence as a basis to consider prosecution” [Day 16/100/10- 12].

  1. In terms of enforcement methodology, the LD is exploring the use of drones and

other technology to assist evidence-gathering for the new smoking ban [Day

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16/100/10-17] (Table of Improvement Measures, Item E1). The Chairman observed that “the government is looking into amending the law or maybe use drones in the future to help with enforcement” [Day 16/30/18-23].

  1. Member Au-yeung also echoed the point that “what is difficult at the moment is

that you need to see it with your own eyes. Other than raising the penalty, I do not see any changes made to enforcement” [Day 16/100/18-21]. In response to Member Au-yeung’s concern, the Government emphasises that the proposed improvement measures go beyond raising penalties: by making smoking per se an offence at construction sites and extending the liability to cover contractors’ failure to take all reasonable measures to prevent smoking, the expectation is to fundamentally change the enforcement landscape by removing the requirement to prove the coexistence of flammable materials, and by enabling the LD to rely on evidence from third parties (including residents’ photographs and videos) on top of direct observation by LD officers during inspections. For the avoidance of doubt, whilst it may be said that the LD could equally rely on evidence from third parties in the past, the point is that such evidence per se is not sufficient for prosecution in the past (and hence of limited value), whereas under the proposed new legislation, such evidence should suffice on its own to substantiate the bringing of prosecution. In this regard, the exploration of drone-assisted enforcement is also a direct response to this concern.

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PART III(C): RAPID SPREAD OF THE FIRE J. THE USE OF SCAFFOLDING NETS UNCERTIFIED FOR FR PROPERTIES

  1. The IFITF’s findings establish that the presence of scaffolding nets uncertified

for FR properties was one of the most critical contributing factors to the rapid spread of the fire. In small fire size cases, the CFD simulations demonstrated that with FR-certified nets, the fire could not sustain itself; with non-FR nets, the result was significant fire spread and severe fire development.

  1. This section examines the factual evidence on the use of such nets at WFC, the

complaints raised, the unreliable certificate presented by Prestige, the causal link to fire spread established by the IFITF, and the respective responsibilities of the contractor, RI, and relevant Government departments.

  1. The primary responsibility for this contributing factor lies with Prestige, which

deliberately directed the supply and use of nets that were non-FR certified (in contravention of the recognised standards) and furnished a test certificate (which is at least suspected to have been fabricated) to conceal the non-compliance, and with Will Power and the RI, who bore the statutory duty to ensure compliance and failed to discharge it.

  1. The Government also acknowledges that the supervisory mechanisms contained

areas requiring review and improvements that the evidence has exposed. These areas are addressed below, together with the improvement measures that have since been introduced. J1. Use of scaffolding nets uncertified for FR properties at WFC

nets were used at WFC. 181

(“Gain Profit”), a supplier engaged by Prestige) establishes the chain of instruction from Prestige to the supplier. Chan states that after the first typhoon in July 2025, Gordon (Ho Kin-yip, a director of Prestige) contacted him and asked him to procure replacement nets. When Chan explained that the WFC project required FR nets and suggested using FR nets (whose cost with shipping was not significantly different from ordinary nets), Gordon instructed him: “叫你訂就訂, 唔使講咁多,你訂阻燃網都唔會找數俾你” (just order what I tell you to order, don't say so much; if you order FR nets I won't pay you for them)253 [WS2/1437].

him to follow Gordon’s instructions. Chan accordingly procured 450 sheets of ordinary (non-FR certified) nets for Prestige254 [WS2/1437-1438].

Gordon again instructed Chan to order 4,500 sheets of ordinary nets, and when Chan once more explained that FR nets were required and that the price difference was modest, Gordon again insisted on ordinary nets255 [WS2/1438-1439].

urgently order 115 sheets of FR nets because of a LD inspection prompted by the Chinachem Tower fire, requiring Prestige to selectively replace ordinary nets with FR nets ahead of the inspection256 [WS2/1439-1440]. This is corroborated by a WhatsApp message from Sam Tam of Prestige to Hau Wa-kin on 27 October 2025 at 09:54 am stating: “(不公開)明天下午預 ICU 到地盤預要燒棚網 check 定邊啲 ok” (confidential: tomorrow afternoon expect ICU to come to site, 253 Chan Yiu-fai 1st WS §14 254 Chan Yiu-fai 1st WS §14 255 Chan Yiu-fai 1st WS §16 256 Chan Yiu-fai 1st WS §17

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expect they will burn-test the scaffolding nets, check which ones are ok) [A2/item 95]. This demonstrates that Prestige was not only aware the nets on site were non- FR, but was internally coordinating to identify which nets would pass testing and to selectively replace non-compliant nets with compliant ones specifically to deceive the regulatory authorities during the anticipated inspection.

  1. WeChat discussions between Chan and a Mainland manufacturer (濱州市源進

化纖繩網有限公司) in September 2025 confirm that Chan was actively seeking the supply of non-FR certified nets for WFC [A2/item 111]. 495.1. Chan placed an order expressly specified as “綠色不阻燃” (green, non- FR), 1.8 by 17 metres, in a quantity of 2,500 sheets at RMB 24 per sheet (totalling RMB 60,000), for delivery to Guangdong/Shenzhen [A2/item 111]. The manufacturer confirmed the order and arranged shipment, with delivery expected around 1 to 3 October 2025. 495.2. On 13 October 2025, approximately ten days after the delivery, Chan asked the same manufacturer whether there was any FR agent (“阻燃劑”) that could be applied to the nets after they had already been erected (“等網掛 上去,它要改阻燃的,有沒有那個阻燃劑可以賣給我”). The manufacturer replied: “不能後加. 這個都是一開始拉絲的時候添加進去 的” (it cannot be added afterwards; it has to be added at the stage of drawing the filaments). When Chan pressed further, asking whether there was any FR agent that could be sprayed on the nets after installation (“也 沒有那個阻燃劑可以後加噴一點在上面”), the manufacturer confirmed: “沒有那種的啊陳總” (there is no such thing). The manufacturer then suggested: “能不能跟工地商量一下,下次直接發阻燃的” (can you discuss with the site to just send FR ones next time) [A2/item 111]. This

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exchange demonstrates not only that the nets delivered in October 2025 were non-FR certified, but also that there was active consideration of how to disguise their non-compliance after installation, a consideration that was ultimately frustrated by the technical impossibility of retrofitting FR properties.

  1. Further, WhatsApp messages between Chan Yiu-fai and Zhong Fengping

(Chan’s wife) on 26 November 2025 (the day of the fire) provide further corroborating evidence that the nets which had been delivered to WFC were non- FR certified [A2/item 112]. 496.1. Zhong sent WhatsApp voice messages to Chan (her husband) stating: “宏 福苑火燭呀,你嗱嗱聲打電話搞掂佢啦” (Wang Fuk Court is on fire, hurry up and call to sort it out), followed immediately by: “仲有啊,我哋 後期送啲網過去,阿添叫你解畫,夾好口供解話打俾佢,因為我哋 嗰啲唔係阻燃網嚟㗎嘛” (Also, the nets we delivered later, Ah Tim is asking you to explain it away, align your story and call him, because ours are not FR nets) [A2/item 112]. 496.2. This message constitutes an admission that the nets supplied by Chan to WFC were not FR-certified, and further demonstrates an immediate attempt to coordinate a cover story upon learning of the fire.

  1. The forensic evidence from the Government Laboratory independently

corroborates the above. Dr Lee confirmed that of 5 samples tested from Wang Cheong House (the block where the fire originated), 4 had after-flame times exceeding the 4-second threshold under GB 5725-2009, meaning 80% of available samples failed the standard [Day 25/103/7-14]. Dr Lee explained the apparent anomaly that some samples from other blocks appeared compliant: there

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were constraints at the scene because non-FR nets are more easily consumed by fire. As Dr Lee confirmed: “the remaining samples, they can be tested. The percentage of them fulfilling the criteria would be high because all the non-FR nets might have already been burned through” [Day 25/100/18-23]. This selection limitation means that the proportion of non-FR nets actually present at WFC was likely significantly higher than the tested sample set indicates.

  1. Taken together, this evidence demonstrates that Prestige, through its directors and

its supply chain, knowingly supplied and used, and directed the purchase and use, of scaffolding nets uncertified for FR properties, and did so on multiple occasions including replacement batches supplied as recently as September 2025, just two months before the fire. The test certificate furnished to the LD and ICU purporting to demonstrate FR compliance did not correspond to the nets actually installed at WFC.

(i) The various complaints made by the WFC residents / IO to Prestige / Will Power, the PMC and Government Departments

  1. Multiple complaints were made to government departments raising concerns

about the FR properties of scaffolding nets at WFC.

  1. On 5 October 2024, the ICU was copied in an email in which “the enquirer raised

concerns on the fire risks of the WFC Renovation and stressed the importance of ensuring the fire-retardant properties of the scaffolding nets”257 [WS14/2134]. Around the same time, ICU also received “several other complaints and enquiries, covering issues including use of foam boards, quality of bamboo scaffolding, etc., pertaining to the WFC Renovation” 258 [WS14/2134].

257 KU Siu Ping 3rd WS §17 258 KU Siu Ping 3rd WS §17

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scaffolding nets following Typhoon Ragasa 259 [WS14/2141]. The ICU sent reminder emails to the RI and conducted a site inspection on 28 October 2025260 [WS14/2141-2142].

Inspection of the site on 22 July 2024, when SO-I Kwan “proactively requested PC&E to provide the relevant test report(s) of scaffolding nets to confirm their compliance with the fire-retardant standards stipulated in the Code of Practice for Bamboo Scaffolding Safety (5th Edition), which was not yet in force at the time”261 [WS1/378]. (ii) The relevant conversation records and other factual evidence

[D1/1550, 1599-1603]. 503.1. The report stated that the FR property of the scaffolding nets met the standard of GB 5725-2009, which is one of the acceptable standards stipulated in the 5th edition CoP [D1/709] [WS1/378]. 503.2. The certificate showed a specimen and manufacture date of 5 January 2024 and was issued on 8 January 2024. 503.3. SO-I Kwan also obtained a delivery note [D1/1604] from Prestige, which showed that the manufacturer made a direct delivery of the scaffolding nets to WFC after the FR test262 [WS1/379]. 259 KU Siu Ping 3rd WS §38 260 KU Siu Ping 3rd WS §§38-40 261 LAM Sau Ching 1st WS §81 262 LAM Sau Ching 1st WS §82

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  1. 4. On the face of the documentation, the certificate appeared regular: issued

by a laboratory purportedly testing against GB 5725-2009, with a traceable delivery chain.

  1. In view of the complaints and enquiries received involving multiple issues of

concern in September and October 2024, the ICU issued an email to the RI on 22 October 2024 “requiring that he took immediate actions to address such issues, as well as asking for the arrangement of a site inspection for ICU to better understand the circumstances” 263 [WS14/2134]. The date and time of the inspection (10:00 am on 28 October 2024) were confirmed the following day264 [WS14/2134].

  1. Following the Chinachem Tower fire in October 2025, the ICU took the initiative

to send reminder emails to the RIs of all five courts under its purview, including WFC, on 23 October 2025 and 27 October 2025, “reminding them to ensure that the scaffolding was in good condition and that the fire-retardant properties of the scaffolding nets remained fully in compliance with the requirements of BD’s circular and LD’s Code of Practice for Bamboo Scaffolding Safety” 265 [WS14/2140-2141]. (iii) The unreliable test certificate presented by Prestige

  1. It was only after the fire that the ICU discovered the test certificate provided by

Prestige was unreliable. Ku of the ICU confirmed: “After the fire there is a number and there is some discrepancy regarding two characters in the name of the agency” [Day 22/92/7-22]. Ku also accepted that “if you just rely on the

263 KU Siu Ping 3rd WS §18 264 KU Siu Ping 3rd WS §18 265 KU Siu Ping 3rd WS §§35-36

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certificate or the standard thereon, it’d be difficult for you to check whether the scaffolding nets were not authentic” [Day 22/105/23 - 106/1].

  1. From the LD’s perspective, the same test certificate was received a second time

on 20 November 2025, during the 16th inspection, when replacement nets were installed after typhoon damage [D1/1685-1689, 1693]. The LD “focused on the test result but did not notice at the material time that the report received was the same as the one LD received on 24 July 2024”266 [WS1/379]. Lam accepted in oral evidence that this was “an area that should have been improved” [Day 16/37/23 - 38/9]. J2. How the use of scaffolding nets uncertified for FR properties resulted in rapid spread of the fire (i) The relevant factual evidence

  1. Witness accounts and CCTV footage revealed that burning safety nets melted and

dripped as fire droplets onto lower floors, serving as an ignition source for other combustible materials on the scaffolding below. Wind-carried embers, including fragments of burning netting, travelled to nearby structures where they ignited safety nets, construction debris and other combustible materials on adjacent blocks (IFITF Report §§6.2.3.1-6.2.3.3 [ER1/85]) (ii) The IFITF’s investigations and expert evidence

  1. The IFITF’s investigations, addressed in detail in Section G4 above, established

that the presence of safety nets potentially lacking FR properties was a critical factor in the rapid spread. The IFITF Report concluded: “if these nets were made of FR materials, even if ignited, the fire would likely have self-extinguished after the removal of the heat source, thereby minimizing the risk of igniting other combustible materials and reducing the overall spread of the fire” (IFITF Report

266 LAM Sau Ching 1st WS §83

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§6.2.3.4 [ER1/86]). In small fire size cases, the CFD simulations confirmed that “the use of Sample 2 (FR) safety nets showed that the fire could not sustain itself, with no rapid fire spread having occurred. In contrast, the use of Sample 3 (non- FR) safety nets... resulted in significant fire spread and severe fire development” (IFITF Report §7.3.5.2 [ER1/125]).

  1. The full-scale fire tests conducted in Sichuan and CFD simulations “highlighted

the critical role of FR safety nets in mitigating fire risks. FR safety nets significantly reduced the likelihood of fire propagation by preventing secondary ignitions and self-extinguishing small fires once the external heat source was removed. In contrast, uncertified, non-FR safety nets and samples collected from Wang Chi House sustained small fire propagation and generated flaming droplets that ignited other combustible scaffolding components, such as nylon strips, toe-boards and wooden planks” (IFITF Report §8.6.1.1 [ER1/174]). J3. The primary and supervisory responsibilities for such contributing factor (i) The FR standards and other requirements applicable to scaffolding nets administered by the BD

  1. Before the fire, the BD’s regulatory framework (through multiple publications)

already required scaffolding protective materials to possess FR properties meeting recognised standards.

  1. The relevant publications included clause F5.6(e) of the FS Code [J1-2/4169],

paragraph 4(a) of PNAP APP-70 [J1-1/688], paragraph 4(a) of PNRC 26 [J1- 1/689], paragraph 6.15 under Part C of the Guidelines on the Design and Construction of Bamboo Scaffolds [J1-1/1983], clause 11.2.10 of the Technical Guidelines on the Minor Works Control System (2024 edition) [J1-1/2917], and

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the circular letter to PBPs and RCs dated 21 March 2023 267 [J1-2/5915] [WS1/766].

  1. The March 2023 circular letter, issued following the Mariners’ Club fire,

specifically stated that “protective net, screen, tarpaulin/plastic sheeting installed to cover the façade of buildings under construction, demolition, repair or minor works should have appropriate fire retardant properties in compliance with a recognised standard,” and listed three examples: GB 5725-2009, BS 5867- 2:2008 (Type B performance requirements), and NFPA 701:2019 (Test Method 2) [J1-2/5915].

  1. The LD’s Code of Practice for Bamboo Scaffolding Safety reinforced similar

standards. 514.1. The 4th edition (prevailing until October 2024) required protective screens to be of FR material, but only specified standards for tarpaulin, not for nylon nets [D1/654]. 514.2. The 5th edition, gazetted on 19 April 2024 and effective from 19 October 2024, explicitly extended the FR requirement to “protective net, screen, tarpaulin/plastic sheeting installed on the face” [D1/709] and specified examples of recognised standards including GB 5725-2009, BS 5867- 2:2008 and NFPA 701:2019. 514.3. The 5th edition was the product of inter-departmental collaboration: the BD was consulted on the proposed amendments [D1/1932-1934], and the LD incorporated the BD’s FR requirements to achieve “a set of unified

267 PANG Yuk-lung 1st WS §135

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requirements across the relevant government departments to facilitate the compliance of the industry”268 [WS1/321].

  1. Lam of the LD confirmed that comparing the two editions, the 5th edition was

“sufficiently clear” in extending the FR requirement to nylon nets [Day 16/42/11

  1. For WFC specifically, the building-safety regulation of scaffolding nets fell under

the ICU (not the BD directly) by virtue of the ICU’s delegated authority under the BO for sold HOS buildings. Ku confirmed that the BD’s circular letter of 21 March 2023 set out the recognised FR standards and that “the test report we received demonstrated compliance with the GB 5725-2009 standard” 269 [WS14/2138]. (ii) The primary responsibilities of Prestige and the RI

  1. Under the BO regulatory regime, the primary statutory obligation to ensure

scaffolding protective materials met FR requirements lay with the RC and RI.

  1. Sections 3 and 16 of the B(C)R require that all materials used in building works

must be of a nature and quality suitable for their intended use, adequately tested by recognised tests, and that appropriate precautionary measures must be taken [J1-2/5727, 5735-5736]. As AD Lawsons Yue of the BD confirmed: “PBPs and RCs are required to ensure that protective materials meeting the required fire retardant standards are used in building works under sections 3 and 16 of the B(C)R”270 [WS1/822].

268 YUEN Tsz Lok 1st WS §31 269 KU Siu Ping 3rd WS §28 270 YUE Chak Sang 1st WS §35

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30D of the BO, an appointed RI “is responsible for providing proper supervision of the carrying out of the MBIS-prescribed repair and ensuring that the repair materials to be used are not defective and comply with all relevant Ordinances and Regulations, as well as codes of practice and practice notes”271 [WS14/2128].

“Given the RI’s responsibility to ensure compliance of the materials with the relevant standards, there is no separate or additional requirement to seek approval from the ICU regarding the choice and use of building materials. Further, in line with BD’s practice, the ICU does not verify and certify building materials or carry out sample testing and periodical checks on the building materials used”272 [WS1/640].

§§490-497 above (directing the supply and use of nets that were not FR-certified, furnishing an unreliable test certificate and, as the evidence indicates, selectively replacing nets to deceive inspectors), if proven, goes to the heart of primary responsibility. Ku stated: “We however could not have imagined and it was not foreseeable at that time that the RI / RC would deceive ICU or resort to the deliberate calculated moves through selective replacements of nets, noting that doing so would have required considerable effort and expense in sourcing and installing compliant nets specifically for the purpose of deceiving ICU. Such conduct, if proven, would represent a serious and deliberate subversion of the inspection process that ICU could not reasonably have been expected to anticipate or guard against”273 [WS14/2143]. 271 KU Siu Ping 3rd WS §4 272 KU Siu Ping 1st WS §47 273 KU Siu Ping 3rd WS §43

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(iii) The Government’s supervisory responsibilities

  1. The ICU agreed that issues relating to scaffolding net fire risks fall within its

purview [Day 22/38/6-8]. The ICU’s supervisory role is exercised through complaint-handling and audit checks. As Ku confirmed: “A documentary audit will not enable you to spot whether the construction method is compliant or not; you can’t tell from a documentary check... You rely on the RI... Under the system” [Day 22/29/16-24].

  1. The ICU had not met the RI (Ng Yeuk) at any point and received no replies from

him directly [Day 22/53/24 - 54/1]. Under the MBIS regime, “there is no statutory requirement for the ICU to supervise and conduct regular/ad hoc inspections of works” 274 [WS1/638]. The system is designed as a two-point monitoring mechanism: the ICU monitors the RI at submission of the inspection report and at completion; “there is no one monitoring the RI during the construction process unless there are complaints against RI” [Day 22/30/5-8]. Ku of the ICU confirmed this directly, “For the MBIS, one document would cover the entire housing estate... Under the MBIS from the start to the end of works, there is no requirement regarding regular inspections. It mainly targets complaints, about the handling of complaints” [Day 22/30/5-8].

  1. From the LD’s perspective, the supervisory role was complementary. The LD’s

primary responsibility for scaffolding nets derives from the Code of Practice for Bamboo Scaffolding Safety and Regulation 49 of the CSSR, requiring contractors to provide FR protective nets on the faces of scaffolds. Inspection of FR certificates is conducted “on a need basis. If fire is a prevailing risk on site or there is any complaint in relation to fire risks on scaffolding, contractors will be requested to provide fire retardant certificates of scaffolding nets to confirm their

274 KU Siu Ping 1st WS §43

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compliance”275 [WS1/341]. The LD’s frontline officers “do not have the requisite expertise to authenticate or verify the certificates” issued by specialist laboratories276 [WS1/342]. Lam of the LD confirmed: “we don’t have the relevant professional expertise. We do not do any sampling, we do not take this for testing” [Day 16/38/20-22].

  1. The LD’s position is that the BD, as the authority setting the FR standards for

scaffolding protective nets, “should also be the authority taking the lead in specifying whether and how checks and inspections, such as fire-retardant test or sample taking of protective nets for testing by recognised laboratories, should be conducted to ensure compliance of the relevant requirement in a coherent manner”277 [WS1/322]. (iv) The actions taken by the ICU at WFC, including the ICU’s practice of giving advance notice

  1. The ICU conducted three site inspections involving scaffolding net quick tests:

28 October 2024, 18 November 2024, and 28 October 2025. Ku confirmed: “a total of 17 spots were randomly picked by me for conducting quick tests. No prior notice of the precise location of such spots was given to the RI/RC” 278 [WS14/2133-2134].

  1. The ICU primarily relied on the (now known to be unreliable) test certificate; the

quick tests “served to provide a practical (albeit rough) indication of the fire- retardancy of the scaffolding nets under actual site conditions” and were “conducted to provide a further quick reference, as they could be administered

275 LI Man Pong 1st WS §28 276 LI Man Pong 1st WS §30 277 LI Man Pong 1st WS §32 278 KU Siu Ping 3rd WS §16

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readily without much time and costs as a handy cross-check”279 [WS14/2135- 2136].

  1. On 28 October 2024, the first quick test on the rooftop showed the net igniting

for more than 10 seconds. Ku of the ICU confirmed in oral evidence that this was “problematic” at the time [Day 22/82/1-2], but before any further action could be considered, the RC’s representative immediately blew out the flame and re-tested the same piece twice; for both subsequent attempts the sample was not ignited [Day 22/81/8 - 83/11]. Quick tests conducted at two other locations of WFC were also satisfactory on that day. Importantly, as Ku explained, there was room for improvement (such as what resulted from time constraints) in the inspection on 28 October 2024 which was concerned with a host of other issues. Hence, Ku took the initiative to conduct a more focused inspection on 18 November 2024 to conduct 12 additional quick tests of nets on random locations at WFC to verify the result and allay his concern. It is thus not entirely fair to expect Ku to focus only on a single quick test result whilst ignoring the rest especially given the immediacy of the re-tests on the same piece of sample. Even if one is to focus on the single quick test result alone, Ku explained that “we considered such arrangement acceptable since it is not uncommon to re-test the same sample to confirm the test result after a failed attempt for the first time” 280 [WS14/2137]. Given that the two re-tests produced negative results, and coupled with the test report provided by the RC’s representative and further quick tests conducted at a larger scale on 18 November 2024, the ICU did not raise further concerns on the whole. Whilst there is room for improvements, in fairness the matter should also be viewed holistically and in context. Further, without shying away from the above, the mitigation is that the underlying cause was deliberate deception

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through selective net replacement, which could not reasonably have been detected by a quick test alone.

  1. As mentioned, to allay Ku’s concern, on 18 November 2024, the ICU conducted

12 further quick tests across five blocks. Ku confirmed: “We had no specific concerns on all of the 12 samples tested. Taken together with our earlier review of the test report... the cumulative results of the quick tests across the inspections provided no ground to question the fire-retardant properties of the scaffolding nets at the time” 281 [WS14/2139-2140].

  1. Thereafter, concerns over scaffolding nets resurfaced following the destruction

of nets by typhoon and the Chinachem Tower fire in October 2025. These led to initiatives taken by the ICU itself, alongside complaints made by Mr Kong [WS2/1354-1358], a resident of WFC. They culminated in the inspection on 28 October 2025 which focused on the conditions and protective function of the old scaffolding nets. Other than that, quick tests on a few samples were also conducted as a cross-check. There were no specific concerns on the test results during this inspection282 [WS14/2142].

  1. As to the ICU’s practice of giving advance notice before site inspections upon

receipt of complaints: 531.1. Ku explained that “the purpose of such site inspections was to address complaints and enquiries, and that the RI is the responsible party under the MBIS regime and the Registered Contractor is the one who carries out actual works, it is imperative that the RI and/or RC (or their representatives) are present” so that ICU could “better understand the actual situation,” “assess whether the subject matter being complained or

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enquired about could be substantiated,” and “request the RI and/or RC... to give explanations as well as make improvements/rectifications as necessary”283 [WS14/2131]. 531.2. Ku further stated that “this inspection was not a site audit under the MBIS regime” and that “one of the priorities at the time was for the multitude of issues to be brought to the immediate attention of the RI and RC such that they could be addressed and dealt with sooner rather than later, with a view to protecting the interest of residents and the public”284 [WS14/2135].

  1. The Government strenuously denies any allegation of collusion or intentional

misconduct by the ICU in giving advance notice (although we understand from the examination stage that this does not seem to be the position being advanced by Counsel for the Committee). There is in any event no evidence before the Committee, whether direct or circumstantial, to support such a serious allegation. To the contrary, the evidence positively negates it. 532.1. First, Ku’s stated rationale for giving advance notice is not unreasonable on its face: the purpose of the site inspections was to address complaints and enquiries, which required the RI and/or RC (or their representatives) to be present so that the ICU could understand the actual situation, assess whether the complaint could be substantiated, and request explanations or rectifications as necessary. This is consistent with the self-regulatory spirit of the MBIS, under which the ICU’s role is to hold the RI to account rather than to conduct its own independent works supervision. 532.2. Second, the suggestion of collusion is wholly inconsistent with the affirmative steps the ICU took. If the ICU were colluding with the RC,

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there would have been no reason for Ku to conduct quick tests at 17 randomly selected locations, to raise fire hazard concerns directly with the RC at the 28 October 2024 inspection, to review the test certificate, to send reminder emails to the RI following the Chinachem Tower fire, or to conduct the further inspection on 28 October 2025. The totality of the ICU’s conduct is that of a supervisory body engaging actively, within the constraints of its system, with the issue as it understood it to be. 532.3. Third, the implausibility of collusion given the steps the ICU affirmatively took (quick tests, certificate review, follow-up inspections at 17 locations, reminder emails to the RI); and 532.4. Fourth, the deliberate deception by Prestige, through selective replacement of nets requiring “considerable effort and expense in sourcing and installing compliant nets specifically for the purpose of deceiving ICU” 285 [WS14/2143], constituted a “serious and deliberate subversion of the inspection process that ICU could not reasonably have been expected to anticipate or guard against” 286 [WS14/2143–2144]. (v) The actions taken by the LD at WFC

  1. The LD conducted 16 site inspections and one surprise surveillance visit at WFC

between July 2024 and 20 November 2025. On 22 July 2024, SO-I Kwan proactively requested the FR test certificate from Prestige. Upon receipt, the LD verified that the stated standard (GB 5725-2009) was one of the recognised standards. The LD also obtained the delivery note establishing a traceable supply chain287 [WS1/379]. On 11 November 2024, the LD made a referral to the ICU by memo, raising “the fire-retardant properties of scaffolding nets arising from

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previous complaints” and stating that “the case is referred to you for any actions you may deem necessary” 288 [WS1/365]. J4. Systemic and/or operational weaknesses on the regulatory level

  1. The MBIS has not required onsite inspections by the ICU in the course of works.

This is not an ICU operational choice. The then Head of ICU, Lau Fu-kwok, accepted this directly: when asked whether the system at the time had provision for auditing or vetting the RI, Lau fairly accepted that in hindsight, the system had not addressed this “in terms of the design” [Day 24/64/4-14].

  1. The ICU’s practice of carrying out inspections with advance notice given to the

RI/RC did not align with the BD’s own practice. Both the FSD and BD conduct inspections without prior notification upon receipt of complaints [Day 22/61/8 - 62/23]. Ku accepted he was not aware of the non-alignment of the ICU’s practice [Day 22/61/8 - 62/23]. Lau accepted in oral evidence that “in hindsight” he should have taken a closer look at the inspection practice discrepancy [Day 24/82/24 - 83/5]. After the fire, the ICU changed its practice: “most of our checks will be conducted in a surprise manner. We will not disclose them in advance” [Day 24/80/23 - 82/23]. The Government acknowledges this was an operational area requiring improvements in terms of the discrepancy in practice. As with other aspects of the supervisory framework, the practice assumed good faith on the part of the professionals subject to it, an assumption that the evidence demonstrates was deviously exploited and undermined.

  1. As to the pre-fire practice in respect of verifying the fire retardancy of scaffolding

nets between the ICU and BD, there is apparent difference but the evidence is not unequivocal. On the one hand, the BD did not conduct any quick tests on scaffolding nets due to the uncertainty on the reliability of such tests, as they were

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not conducted in the laboratory under controlled conditions. In other words, they rely on the test certificates. In contrast, the ICU conducted quick tests as supplementary measure or reference, alongside the test certificates. Whilst much may be said about their limitations, it seems fair to say that such quick tests (albeit not comparable to laboratory testing introduced post-WFC Fire) did offer a degree of check and balance. On the other hand, as to the test certificates, the BD checked laboratory accreditation against HOKLAS or mutual recognition schemes [Day 20/31/7 - 33/20]. In this regard, Ku explained that the BD’s circular letter of March 2023 did not expressly require HOKLAS accreditation, and that “before the fire we need to have HOKLAS or a mutually recognised organisation for testing. We don’t see this in the guidelines or in the code” [Day 22/94/1-10]. Post-fire, the encrypted and digitally signed verification system introduced under PNRC 85 [J1-2/6200-6209] removes any uncertainty and addresses any such systemic vulnerability.

  1. As mentioned, the quick tests conducted by the ICU were merely an ancillary

reference – they were never intended as a substitute for laboratory testing. Ku accepted: “Whether the scaffolding nets meets fire retardancy requirements, that is GB 5725, we need to draw reference from the laboratory tests” [Day 22/106/19

was no established mechanism for the ICU to send scaffolding nets to the Government Laboratory for testing absent proof that the nets had been rigged or were otherwise non-compliant; in other words, if one could only rely on the certificate or the standard thereon, it would be difficult to check whether the scaffolding nets were not authentic [Day 22/105/5 - 106/1]. In this regard, Dr Lee confirmed in oral evidence that such on-site tests, while not equivalent to laboratory testing, can nonetheless serve as a reference: when discussing a burn test conducted on site, she observed that “if they want to have some reference” from such a test, they could have regard to the observable characteristics (such as

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the net being ignited, the flame lasting for a period of time, and flaming droplets): [Day 25/101/15-17; Day 25/102/4-9].

  1. Furthermore, as Ku fairly pointed out when Counsel for the Committee suggested

the quick tests gave residents a false sense of security: “Probably someone had rigged the scaffolding nets, not because we have conducted additional quick tests” [Day 22/107/11-21]. The false assurance arose from the rigged nets, not from the quick tests. The quick tests were a supplementary measure beyond what the system required; the fact that they could not serve as a definitive test is beside the point, as they are never intended as a substitute for laboratory tests; rather their purpose was to flag any obvious concerns, not to certify compliance as such.

  1. The Government also acknowledges that the ICU’s reply to a complaint received

in October 2025 about aging scaffolding nets following Typhoon Ragasa did not specifically address the fire retardancy concern raised by the complainant, as Ku of the ICU accepted during oral evidence [Day 22/104/9-16]. The reply to the complainant did not fully convey the specific follow-up actions being undertaken or address the particular concern raised, and there is room for improvement in this regard.

  1. The LD’s enforcement methodology also relied on checking contractor-supplied

FR certificates against the recognised standards, rather than independent sampling and testing. Li Man-pong explained: “Given the technical nature and variety of these requirements and standards, it is not feasible for OSOs, who do not have the relevant technical expertise, to conduct sampling and then re- examining of such plant, equipment or items to check for their compliance with all the standards mentioned in LD’s publications during inspections. Accordingly, inspection of testing certificates issued by laboratories and relevant authorities

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is the current method used by OSOs to perform compliance check”289 [WS1/345- 346]. This is an area for improvement of the LD’s enforcement framework, not specific to WFC.

  1. Despite awareness of the FR concern from at least July 2024, the LD did not

proceed further to consult the BD, ICU or the Government Laboratory about its lack of expertise in authenticating certificates [Day 16/39/13-19]. The Government acknowledges that consultation could have been made. The referral to the ICU on 11 November 2024 [D1/1162] was a partial response (in that it raised the FR issue with the ICU), it came approximately four months after the first certificate was received and was not accompanied by a request for laboratory testing.

  1. The 4 October 2024 email reply to a complainant stated that scaffolding nets did

not involve FR standards under safety regulations. Lam accepted in oral evidence that this statement was “incorrect” and that a complainant relying on the information would be “misled” [Day 16/48/6-25] – that said the Committee may note that well before such email reply the LD had in fact followed up and had asked for and obtained a FR test certificate beforehand (see Section J1 above). The email was written 15 days before the 5th edition CoP took effect; Lam had already (in July 2024) requested the FR certificate as a matter of practice and should have mentioned it, meaning there was an internal inconsistency between the LD’s own operational practice and the information given to the complainant. A corrective reply was later issued in December 2024 [D1/1096].

  1. Separately, the fact that LD did not notice in November 2025 that the FR

certificate submitted by Prestige for replacement nets was identical to the certificate submitted in July 2024 is also acknowledged as an operational area

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requiring improvements. Lam accepted that “looking back” this was “an area that should have been improved” [Day 16/37/23-38/9].

  1. Turning now to the improvements already and to be introduced, and further

studies to be conducted, the BD has introduced PNRC 85 [J1-2/6200-6209], promulgated in mid-December 2025, with three main new requirements 290 WS1/829. 544.1. First, RCs must obtain FR performance test reports with each batch of scaffolding nets received and keep them on site for inspection at any time. 544.2. Second, before commencing works on an existing building, samples must be taken and a test report confirming compliance obtained before nets may be installed; inspection must be conducted by Government-designated accredited laboratories, and test reports must be encrypted and digitally signed. 544.3. Third, upon receipt of notification of scaffolding net installation, the BD will randomly select projects for on-site inspection; non-compliance results in immediate cease work orders.

  1. The ICU has introduced site inspections at least once every four months for large-

scale MBIS renovation projects [Day 24/90/1-11]. The ICU has established a two-way communication channel with the FSD for large-scale renovation projects, under which the ICU provides lists to the FSD when works commence, and the FSD’s inspection findings are passed to the ICU for follow-up [Day 24/90/17 - 91/13]. The ICU now uses computer-randomised selection for inspection locations to prevent manipulation [Day 22/74/13-19]. The ICU also

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requires RIs to submit regular site supervision records during works 291 [WS1/618].

  1. Since May 2026, the ICU has also implemented project-based integrated control

for courts with large-scale renovation in progress. This approach is consistent with the risk-based methodology advocated by the experts before the Committee. Under this approach, the ICU conducts holistic risk assessments taking into account various minor works conducted in the same court concurrently, and formulates inspection and random check plans during the course of works based on the risk levels. These risk assessments and plans are regularly reviewed through internal meetings across teams chaired by ICU’s directorate staff (Table of Improvement Measures, Item B3(i)).

  1. The FSD has established a mechanism with the BD and ICU under which, every

two weeks, information is provided to the FSD on buildings with scaffolding nets. The DFS confirmed: “For the buildings with scaffolding nets, whenever there is any shutdown, we inform the BD or the Housing Department at once. We will not allow any works to continue because of the shutdown of the fire service system. There were five buildings having this situation and we already ordered works to be stopped” [Day 19/70/4-16]. As at April 2026, approximately 600 buildings under renovation have been inspected by the FSD [Day 19/71/12-13]. The FSD’s operational teams also formulate contingency plans with new elements specifically addressing the WFC scenario: “Having drawn reference from the Wang Fuk Court fire, if buildings nearby have scaffolding nets, in the contingency plan they need to detail how the fire will be handled in the case of any spread” [Day 19/70/22 - 71/5].

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[WS1/326] and has since January 2026 been deploying its staff to support the BD’s work in taking samples of scaffolding nets under PNRC 85 (Table of Improvement Measures, Item E4(ii)). The LD will also “explore opportunities to collaborate with BD and FSD for joint inspections to RMAA sites in respect of areas with common concern” 293 [WS1/327]. K. THE USE OF POLYVINYL CHLORIDE FOAM BOARDS AS COVERS ON WINDOWS AS TEMPORARY PROTECTION

obstructed residents’ awareness of the fire, delayed their response, and contributed to the vertical spread of fire. Toxicological reports indicated that 102 of the 168 fatalities had elevated blood carbon monoxide saturation levels, consistent with inhalation of toxic gases generated by the combustion of polystyrene materials.

complaints raised, the representations made by the contractor, the causal link to fire spread and casualties established by the IFITF, and the respective responsibilities of the contractor, RI and relevant Government departments.

both used and directed the use of combustible foam boards extensively and for a prolonged period in breach of its own express representation to use non- combustible materials in a specific manner, and with the RI (Ng Yeuk and Will Power which purportedly was engaged to provide RI services), who bore the 292 YUEN Tsz Lok 1st WS §43 293 YUEN Tsz Lok 1st WS §45

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statutory duty to ensure that construction methods complied with section 16 of the B(C)R.

  1. The Government acknowledges that the ICU, having raised the fire hazard

concern at the 28 October 2024 inspection, could have followed up on the matter in a more proactive manner; such operational weakness, together with the lack of more specific prescriptive standards for temporary window protection materials under the pre-fire regime, is addressed below. K1. Extensive use of foam boards

to cover windows at WFC.

meeting on 17 June 2024, Prestige proposed using foam boards despite Will Power’s express warning that foam boards are flammable objects and will cause a lot of smoke during fire and its suggestion to use protective boards instead. Prestige insisted on using foam boards, and Will Power stated that if the contractor insists, they have to bear their own risk.

foam boards [M1/240].

for foam boards. On 19 September 2024, Hoi Tak Construction Ltd (the sub- contractor responsible for the facade works of Wang Kin, Wang Tai and Wang Cheong Houses [WS2/1457]) ordered foam boards expressly specified as non- FR (“非阻燃”) [C1-2/1099]. 206

boards are further confirmed by the reply to the Committee by Yiu Kam-fai of Shing Construction Co., Limited, the sub-contractor responsible for the facade works of Wang Yan House and Wang Tao House. Yiu states that before commencing external wall repair works, Gordon Ho, a director of Prestige, orally instructed him to seal every household’s windows with foam boards to prevent stone debris from breaking residents’ glass windows during chiselling, and that the sealing had to be completed before any other external wall works could commence [WS2/1468].

through another sub-contractor, New Nam Fong Construction Limited [C1- 2/1128, 1130, 1132, 1134].

Prestige and the then MC Chairman Tsui Moon Come confirms that Prestige was aware that residents had strong objections to the foam boards (“居民覺得 FOAMBOARD 咁大意見”) and that the question of their fire retardancy was a live issue. Ho asked whether the second and third phases should switch to hollow boards instead. Tsui responded by asking whether foam boards that were less flammable could be found. Gordon replied: “我再問下廠,但即使佢話有我都 唔夠敢擔保一定有阻燃” (I’ll ask the factory again, but even if they say they have it, I wouldn’t dare guarantee it’s definitely fire-retardant). Tsui suggested that a video showing the board self-extinguishing after burning would suffice without needing a certificate. Gordon then confirmed: “收到,如我訂到可於第 二及三期工程轉用,但注意,第一期無法更換” (Understood. If I can order them, they can be used for phases 2 and 3, but note that phase 1 cannot be replaced). This exchange demonstrates that (at least) as at 2 October 2024, 207

Prestige knew the foam boards already installed in phase 1 did not demonstrate FR properties, and that they would remain in place without replacement. (i) The various complaints made by the WFC residents / IO to Prestige / Will Power, the PMC and Government Departments

  1. Multiple complaints were made to government departments raising concerns

about the use of foam boards to cover windows at WFC. The ICU received a total of three complaints relating to the use of foam boards as temporary window protection between 17 September and 17 October 2024294 [WS14/2144]. The first enquiry, received on 17 September 2024, was titled “有關反映大埔宏福苑正進 行大維修工程使用發泡膠封窗是否符合安全規定” [I1-4/8221-8228]; the second, received on 23 September 2024 [I1-4/8229-8251], was also referred to the FSD and BD by the 1823 hotline295 [WS1/650]. (ii) The relevant conversation records and other factual evidence

  1. The ICU’s site inspection on 25 September 2024 was its first direct observation.

Ku observed that “some materials labelled as ‘CO2 生態健廉地暖板’ were stored on ground floor” and that the ICU “also entered into a block and took the lift to one of the upper floors and observed that a foam board was used to cover the window of the lift lobby from outside”296 [WS14/2147]. For the three blocks with scaffolding nets erected, the ICU “were unable to see the condition of the windows of the domestic flats by looking from the outside” 297 [WS14/2147].

  1. The ICU’s site inspection on 28 October 2024 was the pivotal occasion. Ku asked

the RI’s assigned person and RC about the process of hacking off external finishes, and “expressed concern on the temporary protection that would affect natural

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lighting and ventilation, and the possible complaints from residents” 298 [WS14/2150]. The RC’s explanation was that “the RC’s workers would proceed with the hacking off works every three floors at a time, and the foam boards were only used for temporary protection of window glazing around each floor during hacking off, and would be removed immediately upon completion of the hacking off works around each floor” 299 [WS14/2150-2151]. On the basis of this explanation, “the use of foam boards appeared to be both limited in scope and short in duration, confined to the immediate vicinity of the works being carried out at any given time” 300 [WS14/2151].

  1. Critically, Ku also raised with the RC the concern “that the use of foam boards

could pose a fire hazard to residents.” 301 The RC responded that “they would use non-combustible material for such temporary protection” 302 [WS14/2151]. Additionally, Ku “pointed out that the foam boards were piled up too close to the buildings and requested them to be moved away from the buildings. The contractor agreed to follow up on this” 303 [WS1/651-652]. The RC’s representation was subsequently reduced to writing and made known to residents by way of a Q&A published by the WFC IO on 23 November 2024: “問:為何 現時窗邊已沒有保護?答:宏業表示打鑿時才會有保護,完成打鑿後會拆 除窗外保護物” 304 [I2/9630] [WS14/2145].

  1. After the three inspections in September to November 2024, the ICU received no

further foam board complaints and did not follow up further on the issue. Ku explained: “on 28 October we thought that it was not an issue anymore. That’s

298 KU Siu Ping 3rd WS §61 299 KU Siu Ping 3rd WS §61 300 KU Siu Ping 3rd WS §62 301 KU Siu Ping 3rd WS §63 302 KU Siu Ping 3rd WS §63 303 KU Siu Ping 1st WS §60(ii) 304 KU Siu Ping 3rd WS §45(b)

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why we did not notice that” [Day 22/130/14-18]. He further gave explanations for not detecting the extensive use: “There’s also one thing. Hacking and then removing the protective materials is an approach adopted by the trade. It is not infeasible” [Day 22/123/10-16]. (iii) The actual manner of use of foam boards at WFC

  1. The reality, as it emerged after the fire, was that the foam boards were in place

for far longer than the RC had represented. Ku accepted: “Looking at the papers, it has been more than a year” [Day 22/121/21 - 122/2]. When asked whether the ICU was unaware because there were no further complaints, Ku confirmed: “That’s one of the reasons. Afterwards, we saw from some documents in January 2025 — we saw exchanges between residents and the contractor. We wondered why the temporary protective materials were not there. The contractor said that that was there temporarily under the hacking process” [Day 22/122/11-19].

  1. The IFITF’s post-fire investigation confirmed the extent of foam board coverage.

The IFITF Report records that polystyrene window covers were “installed as a protective measure from debris on unit and common corridors windows” across the affected buildings (IFITF Report §10.5.1 [ER1/217]).

  1. The scale of coverage is evidenced by the IFITF’s finding that among 291 witness

statements, only 43 individuals (14.7%) reported seeing fire or smoke, and among 579 questionnaires, only 48 respondents (8.3%) indicated that they had witnessed the fire (IFITF Report §10.5.3 [ER1/218]). These figures are consistent with windows being covered on a widespread, not localised, basis across the estate.

  1. The ICU’s witness statements acknowledged that upon close-up review in

preparation of the witness statements, Ku identified that some windows in photographs from subsequent inspections (conducted for unrelated complaints

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such as A/C hoods and structural issues in January 2025 and June 2025) appeared to be covered by foam boards. However, at the time of those inspections, the ICU’s focus was on the subject matter of those complaints; the ICU did not pay particular attention to window covers because the RC had represented foam boards would be temporary, and no further foam board complaints had been received after October 2024 [WS1/623, 632-635]. K2. How the extensive use of foam boards to cover up windows resulted in rapid spread of the fire and heavy casualties (i) The relevant factual evidence

  1. The IFITF’s investigations, addressed in Section G5 above, established that

polystyrene window covers “obstructed residents’ view of the external environment... hindered occupants from realizing the severity of the fire in neighbouring buildings as well as their own buildings, lowering their awareness and in turn delaying their response” (IFITF Report §10.5.1 [ER1/217]). As mentioned above, among the 291 witness statements, only 43 individuals (14.7%) reported seeing fire or smoke; among the 579 questionnaires, only 48 respondents (8.3%) indicated they had witnessed the fire - “surprisingly low numbers for such a large fire” suggesting that the foam board covers “may have significantly hindered occupants’ ability to perceive the situation outside their units, thereby delaying their escape” (IFITF Report §10.5.3 [ER1/218]). (ii) The IFITF’s investigations and expert evidence

  1. Beyond obstructing awareness, the combustible polystyrene panels contributed

to the vertical spread of the fire. The IFITF identified four key mechanisms: fueling the external fire spread as the panels burned readily on the building façade; falling as ignited debris that sparked fires beneath windows; generating burning fragments light enough to travel significant distances and ignite secondary fires; and producing burning droplets that dripped onto nearby combustibles, igniting

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them and causing additional fire spread (IFITF Report §10.5.6 [ER1/218-219]). Dr To Chi-wing further confirmed in oral evidence that foam boards attached to windows, when ignited, could cause the breakage of the windows themselves, thereby facilitating the entry of fire and smoke into the units [Day 26/69/6-8, 17- 23]. “Once windows were breached, flames and smoke entered units easily and directly exposing residents to dangerous conditions, not to mention the combustion of such polystyrene materials generated toxic gases such as carbon monoxide” (IFITF Report §10.5.4 [ER1/218]). Toxicological reports indicated that 102 of the 168 fatalities had blood carbon monoxide saturation levels ranging from 15% to 80% (IFITF Report §10.5.4, fn 179) [ER1/218]). K3. The primary and supervisory responsibilities for such contributing factor (i) The standards and requirements applicable to the use of foam boards as protection

  1. Section 16(1) of the B(C)R [J1-2/5735] provides that “in carrying out building

works or street works — (a) appropriate construction methods and procedures must be adopted; and (b) appropriate precautionary measures must be taken.”

  1. This is a general provision that applies to all materials used in building works,

including temporary protective materials. The oral evidence of AD Karen Cheung of the BD is unequivocal: “Extensive use of foam boards to cover windows is an improper work procedure and that may be against section 16 of the Building (Construction) Regulation” [Day 20/41/10 - 42/5]. When asked directly whether the BD would approve the use of foam boards, AD Karen Cheung of the BD stated: “We won’t approve that. Instead, we would take enforcement actions” [Day 20/42/18 - 44/7].

  1. However, a degree of flexibility was identified in the other evidence. Franco Tse,

the BD secondee at the ICU from April 2023 to July 2025, gave evidence that

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short-term, localised use of foam boards during active chiselling might not contravene section 16: “When a certain floor is going through chiselling work, and let’s say you cover the windows with foam boards and you remove the foam boards after chiselling is completed, for such a short period of time I believe that it is not in contravention of any regulation or in contravention of section 16 of B(C)R. We need some sort of flexibility in our work” [Day 20/85/19 - 86/24]. The ICU’s Ku agreed with this view: “If it’s just a short time, several floors at a time, it doesn’t necessarily contravene section 16 of B(C)R” [Day 22/159/8-14].

  1. Notably, AD Lawsons Yue of the BD said in paragraph 72 of his Witness

Statement: “Subject to further investigation, the extensive use of foam boards at the external walls is in contravention with the above requirements.” 305 [WS1/836] It would appear that, in a similar vein, what AD Lawsons Yue of the BD took issue with is the “extensive use of foam boards” at the external walls, which leaves a degree of flexibility whether the use of the same for a short period at localised area might or might not contravene the law. He also opined that the foam boards “had brought about additional fire hazards to the buildings” and “might also have blocked the occupants’ sight of the severity of the fire and delayed their response to leave the buildings” 306 [WS1/836].

  1. The distinction identified by both the BD (Karen Cheung) and ICU (Franco Tse

and Andy Ku’s) position is therefore one of extent and duration: localised, short- term use during active chiselling may be acceptable under a flexible reading of section 16; extensive, prolonged use covering windows across multiple blocks for over a year is not. The ICU was deceived about the extent and duration of use at WFC. The RC’s representation (that foam boards would be used only “three floors at a time during active hacking and removed immediately upon completion”

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for a short period) was not simply false: it was an outright lie. The extensive and prolonged use was contrary to what the ICU was told, and constituted a further element of the wrongdoings by Prestige.

  1. A further point arises under clause F5.6(f) of the FS Code, which requires

inflammable and combustible materials in a building to be “stored under safe custody” [J1-2/4170]. Both Tse and Ku took the view that foam boards in use as window covers (as distinct from foam boards merely stored on site) do not fall within this “stored under safe custody” limb. Tse explained: “As the foam boards are not put in other places and yet it is already attached to the windows, I believe that this should not be regarded as needing to be stored under safe custody” [Day 20/89/4-8]. Ku agreed with Tse’s understanding [Day 22/161/20 - 162/23].

  1. Before the fire, no specific prescriptive standard for temporary window protection

materials existed in any regulation, code of practice or practice note. Ku confirmed: “the term ‘appropriate precautionary measures’ is a very broad concept, and there is no specific requirement in respect of the use or standards of foam board as temporary protection in statutory provisions”307 [WS1/648]. Ku was “unaware that there is any specific guideline on the use or standards of foam board in other documents (such as BD’s Code of Practice, Practice Notes for Authorized Persons, Registered Structural Engineers and Registered Geotechnical Engineers, Circular Letters, etc.), or any prosecution action taken previously against the use of foam board in contravention of section 16 of B(C)R” 308 [WS1/648]. This absence of specific guidance contextualises the regulatory environment in which the ICU and other departments were operating.

307 KU Siu Ping 1st WS §59 308 KU Siu Ping 1st WS §59

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(ii) The primary responsibilities of Prestige and the RI

  1. Under the MBIS Code, the RI and RC bear primary statutory responsibility for

ensuring repair materials comply with the BO: “the RI and RC shall comply with the BO and regulations and shall provide supervision to the rectification and repair works to ensure that the works are prepared, carried out and completed safely and up to the required standards” 309 [WS1/684-685]. The primary responsibility for the extensive and prolonged use of combustible foam boards to cover windows (in breach of the RC’s own express promise to use non- combustible materials) lies squarely with Prestige and Will Power / the RI (Ng Yeuk). (iii) The Government’s supervisory responsibilities

  1. Ku agreed that the question of whether foam board use contravenes section 16 of

the B(C)R falls within the ICU’s purview [Day 22/38/2-5]. However, there was “neither statutory provision on the fire-retardant properties under the BO prohibiting or restricting the use of foam boards as temporary protection, nor clear guidelines from BD of the same that ICU could rely on to act on,” and ICU “hence could hardly take further actions in this regard. ICU also had no basis to raise doubt or demand a test, as there was no standard to test against in the first place” 310 [WS1/686]. That said, Ku confirmed: had he “been aware that the foam boards were used for covering up windows extensively, we would and must have taken follow-up actions” 311 [WS14/2152].

  1. As to the FSD’s position, a complaint was received by the FSD on 23 September

2024 regarding polystyrene boards at WFC. The FSD inspected the site on 25 September 2024 and found polystyrene boards at open ground areas outside three

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blocks; the finding was recorded as “not irregularity concerning the FSD”312 [WS1/99]. The complainant was informed on 3 October 2024 that the issue of fixing polystyrene boards on building windows “was not under the purview of FSD” 313 [WS1/99]. As the complaint was also sent to the ICU, no further referral was made by the FSD314 [WS1/99]. However, as addressed below, the DFS accepted in oral evidence that the FSD’s statutory powers are not confined to active FSIs and that the division of work with the BD is not calcified.

  1. AD Yung accepted in oral evidence that, before the fire, the guidelines to frontline

staff on how to handle such enquiries were “by no means clear” [Day 17/20/3-4]. He confirmed that the FSD has since implemented a new referral mechanism: “From now on, this is being practised, whether it is complaints or enquiries, if the residents have any questions about fire safety issues, we would seek consent and for referral to be done to the relevant departments” and that the FSD would follow up with the receiving department to confirm receipt Day 17/18/17 - 19/7.

  1. The DFS addressed the inter-departmental division of work in relation to foam

boards and access openings in more detail during his own oral evidence. His evidence establishes three propositions of significance for the Committee’s assessment of the FSD’s role. 582.1. First, notwithstanding the inter-departmental division of work in general, the FSD’s statutory powers are not confined to active FSIs. The DFS confirmed that the powers of the FSD under sections 7 and 8 of the FSO are “extensive and comprehensive” and “are not confined to fire service installation and equipment or ‘non-building works’, which are only a few

312 YUNG Kam Hung 1st WS §21 313 YUNG Kam Hung 1st WS §22 314 YUNG Kam Hung 1st WS §22

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amongst many aspects of fire safety and firefighting” [Day 19/53/1-8]. When asked directly whether it was correct that “We can’t rigidly say that passive FSIs are not under your portfolio. You are only in charge of active ones,” the DFS confirmed: “Right” [Day 19/60/17-22]. He further confirmed: “when it comes to fire safety, you have the statutory role to protect life and property and roles on fire protection and fire hazards. So you can’t say that if it is a passive FSI then you don’t have a role to play, because saying so would be incorrect” [Day 19/61/10-15]. 582.2. Second, the division of work between the FSD and BD is “not calcified” and operates on a complementary, not exclusive, basis. The DFS stated: “our division of labour is not calcified. We do not have a silo portfolio; we share the same portfolio” [Day 19/58/3-4]. He confirmed that Wilson Chan J in the U Storage decision [A5/785] accepted that “when you both have power, your roles are complementary to each other” [Day 19/61/6-7]. The practical mechanism is sequential consultation: the FSD will “talk to the BD first” before issuing a Fire Hazard Abatement Notice on a matter within the BD’s regulatory portfolio, because the BD’s scope is wider and encompasses structural, lighting and ventilation considerations that the FSD would not independently assess [Day 19/84/14-19]. But this requirement for prior consultation does not negate the FSD’s power: “if you think there is a need to exercise the power, you will?” to which the DFS confirmed: “Yes” [Day 19/63/1-3]. 582.3. Third, the DFS accepted that the ultimate responsibility for fire safety rests with the FSD. When asked: “Under section 7 of the FSO the gatekeeping function of the FSD, after all, it is the FSD that is responsible for fire safety. You may have to consult other departments. But the ultimate responsibility of fire safety rests with the FSD; is that correct?” the DFS confirmed:

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“Correct” [Day 19/87/23 - 88/3]. He further confirmed: “after consultation with other departments concerning how to take law enforcement actions and remove the fire hazards, it is your responsibility; is that correct?” to which he answered: “Yes” [Day 19/88/4-8]. The Chairman also directly engaged with this point, observing: “I think, Director, you will agree that communication is very important. The BD may not be aware of all fire risks, so you’ll agree that enhanced communication is necessary?” to which the DFS again confirmed: “I agree” [Day 19/63/4-8].

  1. In relation to foam boards specifically, the DFS confirmed that “both departments

have the power to enforce the law” [Day 19/65/1-3]. He confirmed that the BD has since issued a circular letter in March 2026 stating that “foam boards should not be used to cover windows” and that “in this regard division of labour is clear. There are clear requirements that foam boards should not be used to seal windows, but we have a statutory duty. We will talk to the BD as to how it will be handled” [Day 19/65/8-13]. The FSD’s views summarised in §§581-583 are not only relevant to the issues dealt with in this Part K (use of foam boards), but also to other issues that are capable of bringing about significant fire risks. (iv) The actions taken by the ICU at WFC

  1. As mentioned above, the ICU conducted three inspections at which the foam

board issue was touched upon: 25 September 2024, 28 October 2024 and 18 November 2024315 [WS14/2144]. On 25 September 2024, Ku observed foam board materials stored on the ground floor and one foam board covering a lift lobby window. On 28 October 2024, he raised the fire hazard concern with the RC, who represented to use non-combustible materials. On 18 November 2024, Ku enquired whether follow-up actions had been taken since 28 October, and “the

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RC replied in the affirmative” 316 [WS14/2151-2152]. Thereafter, the ICU received no further foam board complaint. Ku stated that had he “been aware that the foam boards were used for covering up windows extensively, we would and must have taken follow-up actions” 317 [WS14/2152].

  1. As to the consultation with Franco Tse, the accounts of Ku and Tse diverge.
  2. 1. Ku’s account is that he “visited Mr Tse’s office after the inspection on 25

September 2024 to consult him whether there were any regulations or guidelines issued by BD regarding the use of foam boards to cover up the windows” 318 [WS14/2148-2149]. Ku stated he explained to Tse that his team had received an enquiry about the use of foam boards for temporary protection of windows, and that Tse “advised that the said use of foam boards was not considered as building works and that there was no requirement on the fire-retardant properties of the foam boards used” and that “as the said use of foam boards would not be considered as unauthorised buildings works, it would not be actionable”319 [WS14/2149]. Ku explained that he did not provide Tse with more detail because “I did not have information on the extent of the use of foam boards at that material time” 320 [WS14/2149]. 585.2. Tse’s account is that he is “not able to recall that Mr. Ku Siu Ping has verbally consulted me regarding the use of foam boards to cover up windows at Wang Fuk Court” [WS3/1682]. In his second letter, Tse stated that the advice attributed to him “is obviously unsound” [WS3/1682]. However, Tse also acknowledged that “the context of the statement... may

316 KU Siu Ping 3rd WS §66 317 KU Siu Ping 3rd WS §67 318 KU Siu Ping 3rd WS §57 319 KU Siu Ping 3rd WS §57 320 KU Siu Ping 3rd WS §58

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be acceptable given that the coverage of the foam boards is only confined to few individual flat or a particular floor and the duration is short” [WS16/2200]. Tse confirmed during his oral evidence that “I really do not remember whether he has asked me or in what kind of format he asked me. I can only say that I didn’t have any detailed information. I have not seen any photos, I do not know which estate he was referring to” [Day 20/85/2- 9].

  1. The Committee is not required to resolve the divergence between Ku and Tse as

to whether the consultation occurred as a matter of fact. Recollections may differ. Whether or not it did, the underlying operational concern remains: no written record was made of any such discussion, and insufficient background information was provided for the purposes of obtaining meaningful advice. Tse’s view that Ku “should have tried his utmost to obtain a full picture of the case” and could have verified the RC’s representation “by simply bring up the case for arranging further site re-inspection, say in 2 or 3 weeks time” [WS16/2201] is a valid point that the Government acknowledges: a follow-up inspection to verify the RC’s representation would have been better practice. (v) The actions taken by the FSD at WFC

  1. As mentioned above, the FSD conducted an inspection of the site on 25

September 2024 and did not consider the polystyrene boards found at the open ground areas per se to be an irregularity from the FSD’s perspective. The FSD’s response when consulted by the ICU was that foam boards were not dangerous goods. The FSD’s primary concern is with dangerous goods, not construction materials. The Government acknowledges that the FSD’s response, while reflecting the internal division of work, did not address the broader fire safety concern raised by the use of foam boards – that said the Committee may note that

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in context the matter was in fact taken up and followed up by the ICU who undertook inspections and acted upon the representations given by the contractor. K4. Systemic and/or operational weaknesses on the regulatory level

  1. No specific standard for foam board fire retardancy existed before the fire, and

section 16 of the B(C)R, while applicable, provides only a general requirement without prescriptive content321 [WS1/648; WS1/686]. The absence of specific standards or guidelines added to the difficulties on the ICU’s part to take decisive enforcement action: The ICU had no defined benchmark against which to measure the foam boards’ fire performance and no basis on which to demand a FR test (there being no standard to test against). The post-fire circular issued by the BD in March 2026 [B13/5714-5719], which expressly prohibits the use of combustible materials including foam boards on external walls or windows, directly addresses this gap.

  1. The operational area requiring improvements is equally clear: the ICU did not

proactively follow up thoroughly on the foam board issue despite multiple inspections and documents received after October 2024. The Chairman observed directly: “You did follow up, but you didn’t follow up thoroughly. For the foam boards, they have been used to seal up the windows and you didn’t follow up. You did follow up, as you said, but if you follow up more thoroughly, you must have picked this up.” Ku accepted: “It is with the benefit of hindsight, indeed there are areas that we could have done better” [Day 22/148/22 - 149/2].

  1. The lack of written records of the contractor’s promise at the 28 October 2024

inspection and of the Tse consultation (if it occurred) is a further operational area requiring improvements. Ku accepted: “With the benefit of hindsight, if we had

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the instructions written down, it would be a better approach” [Day 22/115/1-9]. The ICU now requires that “if safety or major concerns, high-risk issues or complaints are involved, then we ask our colleagues to compile comprehensive records, and when they do inspections, they need to complete the inspection forms” [Day 24/70/11-15].

  1. A further operational weakness concerns the fact that the ICU did not

communicate the RC’s representation on the manner of use of foam boards in its reply to the complainant or in any other correspondence with residents. 591.1. When the ICU replied to the complainant on 12 November 2024 [I1- 4/8251], the reply stated that foam boards were used as temporary protection measures and that there is no legislation or regulation to require such protection materials need to meet fire-retardant requirements. 591.2. The ICU did not inform the complainant of the specific representation made by the RC at the 28 October 2024 inspection that foam boards would be used only three floors at a time during active hacking and would be removed immediately upon completion of the hacking works around each floor. 591.3. If residents were informed of what the RC had represented, they would have a clear benchmark against which to assess whether the contractor’s practice on the ground matched its undertaking. Ku accepted in oral evidence that the unintended consequence of the way the reply was framed was that “no resident would complain to you and they told a lie” [Day 22/141/9-12]. He further accepted that “with the benefit of hindsight indeed, in answer to the residents, it would be far better to make things clearer” [Day 22/141/15-16].

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issue was a result of the pre-fire division of work, but not by any absence or abnegation of statutory power.

handle the matter” [Day 19/66/1-3], and that the FSD could in principle have issued a FHAN in relation to combustible foam boards as a fire hazard. However, the practical position was that the BD had specific legislation applicable to external wall materials and a wider expertise encompassing structural, lighting and ventilation considerations, and the FSD deferred to the BD’s lead regulatory role on this basis [Day 19/64/1-21].

of the BD” and that “what happens now is that if the foam boards are not removed, the contractor will be prosecuted. In the future we will talk to them about enforcement” [Day 19/64/12-14].

board issue. AD Karen Cheung of the BD confirmed: “combustibles include foam boards; they cannot be put on external walls or windows” [Day 20/45/9 - 46/24]. A limited exception is preserved for temporary covering of windows during active chiselling works: “if there is some temporary chiseling work to be done, (g) states that if it is a temporary covering of windows, it is allowed” [Day 20/46/6-9]. When asked whether this represented “a huge difference between the regulations before and after the fire,” AD Karen Cheung of the BD responded: “We just want to be clear” [Day 20/46/20-24]. The Government’s position is that the March 2026 circular clarified the regulatory context: the position that extensive foam board use was always in breach of section 16 of the B(C)R was correct both before and after the circular. 223

scale building repair works sites at least once every six months, with specific focus on whether combustible materials (such as foam boards) have been installed on windows (Table of Improvement Measures, Item B1).

including regular site inspections, enhanced record-keeping requirements, and inter-departmental communication channels, apply equally to the detection of foam board use and other non-compliant construction practice.

weekly information sharing with the BD/ICU and the FSD’s new referral-and- follow-up practice, are designed to ensure that fire safety concerns arising from construction practice are no longer left in a gap between departmental mandates.

mechanism (in April 2026) under which, for fire safety cases involving matters within the professional purview of other government departments (such as construction materials on external walls), the FSD will, with the complainant’s consent, proactively refer the case to the most appropriate department, confirm that the referral has been taken over by the relevant department, and follow up until completion. Should a department contest a referral, the case will be escalated to the Assistant Director or Deputy Director level for inter-departmental coordination. This mechanism directly addresses the pre-fire gap whereby the FSD’s response to the foam board complaint was limited to confirming that foam boards were not dangerous goods without addressing the broader fire safety concern (Table of Improvement Measures, Item A11).

renovation works, with the FSD’s specialised advice on firefighting and rescue 224

operations, dangerous goods handling, and FSIs incorporated (Table of Improvement Measures, Item A11) [B14/6327-6328]. This publication demonstrates the enhanced inter-departmental collaboration on fire safety matters arising from construction practice and provides accessible guidance to contractors, RIs and building owners in a single consolidated format.

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L. THE USE OF OTHER NON-FR CONSTRUCTION MATERIALS - SPECIFICALLY, PLASTIC SHEETS / CANVAS

  1. Beyond the scaffolding nets and foam boards addressed in Sections J and K, the

re-entrant at WFC contained a range of other combustible construction materials that contributed to the rapid spread of the fire. These included canvas used on catch-fans and working platforms, plastic sheeting, toe-boards, wooden planks and nylon strips.

  1. The primary responsibility for the use of non-compliant materials across the

scaffolding rests with Prestige and the RI under sections 3 and 16 of the B(C)R. The Government’s post-fire reforms, including the Secretary for Labour and Welfare’s announcement that the CoP will be revised to specify material requirements for toe-boards and the BD’s review of the BO to consider making non-compliance with material safety standards a new offence, directly address the identified inadequacies or gaps. L1. Use of other non-FR construction materials – the relevant evidence

  1. The IFITF Report established that two types of canvas were used at WFC,

“mainly made of polyethylene or a mixture of polyethylene and polypropylene”. Laboratory examinations revealed that “both types of canvas were more susceptible to sustained burning after flame impingement than the safety nets, with some producing burning droplets. Therefore, if a fire were to be initiated in the working platform, the canvas would easily ignite, quickly spreading the fire to nearby combustibles and leading to rapid fire development” (IFITF Report §6.2.1.8 [ER1/81]).

  1. These findings are corroborated by the independent laboratory analysis conducted

by Dr Lee [ER2-1/478-481].

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  1. 1. Dr Lee examined plastic sheeting samples seized from WFC and control

samples obtained from construction material suppliers associated with the renovation works. The examination revealed that the plastic sheeting used at WFC was made of mainly polyethylene, or a mixture of polyethylene and polypropylene, in multi-layered configurations. 604.2. Of the six samples of plastic sheeting examined from the construction material suppliers (Lab Ref. 26C0714/1-6), five (items 26C0714/1, 3-6) sustained burning after removal of a flame, with some specimens largely consumed with flame reaching the top edge and producing burning droplets. Only one sample (item 26C0714/2), which was allegedly FR, did not sustain burning after removal of the flame [ER2-1/481]. 604.3. The examination of plastic sheeting seized from the WFC scene itself produced consistent results. All five items of plastic sheeting tested with reference to Condition A of GB/T 5455-2014 were ignited, with average afterflame times ranging from 12.4 seconds to 30.7 seconds, substantially exceeding the 4-second threshold applicable to safety nets under GB 5725-

  1. Specimens from four of the five items were found to have burnt to

the top edge and were mostly consumed before extinguishing, with flaming droplets produced. Under the more stringent Condition B, average afterflame times ranged from 15.9 seconds to 41.1 seconds, again with specimens largely consumed and flaming droplets produced [ER2-1/485- 486, 499-500]. 604.4. Dr Lee confirmed in oral evidence that both types of canvas found at WFC were more susceptible to sustained burning than the safety nets: “even when the source of fire has been taken away, it continued to burn, and then it spread to the side and upward... basically it's spreading upward and then

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you can see the flame and droplets coming down all the time until the time when it's completely consumed” [Day 25/88/12 - 89/2]. When asked directly whether canvas was more combustible than safety nets, Dr Lee confirmed: “Yes... We didn't have to wait for 12 seconds. There are flames and they spread pretty rapidly and upwards. All the canvas, they were completely burned down” [Day 25/105/16-19]. Dr Lee described the fire performance of canvas as “dangerous” [Day 25/108/3] and confirmed that the use of such materials on scaffolding during renovation was “rather perilous in terms of fire risk” [Day 25/114/2-4].

  1. Dr Lee’s further statement dated 25 June 2026 [C19/2826-2835] extends the

analysis by comparing the plastic sheeting recovered from the WFC scene against control samples obtained from construction material suppliers associated with the renovation works, and by evaluating the burning behaviour of all samples upon surface ignition with reference to BS 5867-2:2008 (Type B performance requirements). 605.1. The comparison exercise established material links between the scene and the supply chain. The general appearance, weaving pattern, layer structure and chemical compositions of the green plastic sheeting recovered from the scene (items 25C2825/37, 40, 40A and 40B, from Wang Chi House) were found to agree with control samples from the supplier 林記建築材料 (items 26C0714/1 and 26C0714/4 respectively), suggesting that they could be of similar make. Similarly, the blue/white plastic sheeting recovered from the scene (items 25C2825/39, 40C and 41, from Wang Chi House) was found to agree with a control sample from 祥記帆布工程有限公司 (item 26C0714/5), again suggesting similar make [C19/2828-2829].

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  1. 2. Of the control samples tested, only two (items 26C0714/2 and 26C1071/1),

both alleged to be FR, were made of PVC-coated polyester fabric. These two samples did not sustain burning upon surface ignition: no part of any hole nor any part of the lowest boundary of any flame reached the top edge or either vertical edge, and no flaming debris droplets were observed [C19/2829]. 605.3. By contrast, all remaining plastic sheeting items (whether recovered from the scene or obtained from suppliers) were made of mainly polyethylene or a mixture of polypropylene and polyethylene. In burning behaviour tests conducted with reference to BS 5867-2:2008, holes and the lowest boundary of flame reached the top edge or either vertical edge in at least five out of the set of six test specimens for every non-FR sample; flaming debris droplets were observed in more than three out of the set of six test specimens; and most test specimens were consumed in the tests [C19/2829]. 605.4. An additional set of tests was conducted after cleaning the scene samples to remove surface-adhering foreign materials, with the same cleaning procedure applied to control samples for comparison. Dr Lee found no significant change in the burning test results with or without cleaning, confirming that the combustibility observed was an inherent property of the materials themselves rather than an artefact of contamination from the fire scene [C19/2829]. 605.5. Dr Lee concluded that the non-FR plastic sheeting items “were found to be easily ignited after surface impingement by a small flame with remarkable upward and/or lateral spread as well as generation of burning droplets which could aid the spread of fire” [C19/2829].

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L2. How the use of other non-FR construction materials resulted in rapid spread of the fire (i) Plastic sheets and canvas

  1. As recorded in Dr Lee’s statement, photographic evidence from the scene

confirmed that the plastic sheeting was “used extensively, such as covering construction materials and along the interior of the working platform” [ER2/486, 503]. In a similar vein, Dr To Chi-wing of the FSD confirmed, “[t]he buildings in Wang Fuk Court were undergoing major renovation at the time of the fire, which led to their external walls being surrounded by combustible construction materials. These materials included bamboo scaffolding, safety nets, polystyrene window covers, plastic skirting boards (toe-boards), canvas, wooden planks, etc. Together, these materials created a combustible ‘envelope’ enclosing the buildings and provided an abundant fuel source for the fire”322 [WS1/31]. By way of illustration, Dr To referred to a photograph of canvas used at Wang Tao House [B2/1865].

  1. The IFITF’s findings establish that canvas lacking FR properties “allowed small

fires in the re-entrant area to escalate into widespread, intense blazes capable of consuming nearly all combustibles and spreading rapidly across multiple levels” (IFITF Report §8.6.2.1 [ER1/174]). The catch-fans, designed to intercept falling debris, “trapped flying embers, flaming droplets and burning debris instead during the fire, especially with non-FR canvas used on the catch-fans, which increased the risk of ignition and enabled fires to spread horizontally along the catch-fans and onto the scaffolding” (IFITF Report §8.6.2.2 [ER1/174]).

  1. Dr Lee concluded that “the plastic sheeting seized from the scene were found to

be more susceptible to sustained burning after impingement of a flame than the safety nets,” and that “if a fire initiated in the working platform, the plastic

322 TO Chi-wing 1st WS §21.1

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sheeting materials would easily be ignited, spreading the fire quickly to the nearby combustibles leading to a fast development of fire” [ER2-1/486]. Prof Yuen’s Test 13 at Sichuan, which combined safety nets collected from Wang Chi House with non-FR canvas, corroborated this conclusion: the introduction of non- FR canvas “further accelerated the fire growth, transforming limited and localized fires into a widespread and intense blaze” and the “resulting excessive heat release was sufficient to ignite bamboo sticks on a large scale, significantly increasing the HRR” (IFITF Report §7.2.3.19 [ER1/104]). (ii) Toe-boards, wooden planks, nylon strips

  1. The IFITF Report identified that the re-entrant contained large quantities of

accumulated combustible materials forming a continuous fuel source across multiple levels, including “bamboo scaffolding, safety nets, wooden planks, toe- boards, canvas, nylon strips; and polystyrene window covers” (IFITF Report §6.2.1.3 [ER1/79]). The full-scale fire tests revealed that “bamboo was the dominant fuel source, contributing nearly 78% of the total energy released, followed by wooden planks (14%). Despite bamboo’s dominance as a fuel, the test revealed that other materials, such as safety nets, toe-boards and wooden planks, ignited first due to their relatively lower thermal resistance” (IFITF Report §7.2.3.7 [ER1/95]). The time-to-ignition data revealed that toe-boards (16s to 42s) and nylon strips (36s) exhibit relatively low TTI values, indicating a higher susceptibility to ignition, and that wooden planks ignite at about 58s to 79s while bamboo demonstrates a substantially higher TTI of over 110s (IFITF Report §7.2.3.16 [ER1/101]).

  1. The significance of this finding is that materials with lower thermal resistance

(specifically nylon strips, toe-boards and wooden planks) served as the ignition initiators that then spread fire to the dominant fuel (bamboo), creating the self- reinforcing cycle described in Section G4 above.

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L3. The primary and supervisory responsibilities for such contributing factor (i) The FR standards and other requirements applicable to such other construction materials

  1. The BD’s regulatory framework under sections 3 and 16 of the B(C)R provides

the legal basis for requiring compliant materials and appropriate construction methods; these apply to all materials used in building works.

  1. In relation to plastic sheeting used to cover scaffolding on the façade of buildings,

the requirement for FR properties has existed since 1995, when PNAP APP-70 was first issued [J1-1/688]. Paragraph 4(a) of APP-70 expressly advises that “flame-retardant sheeting should be used” when plastic sheeting is used to cover scaffolding erected around the walls of buildings. The March 2023 circular letter [J1-2/5915], built upon this long-standing requirement by specifying particular recognised FR standards (GB 5725-2009, BS 5867-2:2008 (Type B performance requirements), and NFPA 701:2019 (Test Method 2)) applicable to protective net, screen, tarpaulin and plastic sheeting installed on the façade of buildings under construction, demolition, repair or minor works. The LD’s 5th edition CoP, which became effective on 19 October 2024, also incorporated corresponding FR standard requirements (at paragraph 4.4.4(d)) [D1/709]).323

  1. The requirement that canvas and plastic sheeting on scaffolding must possess FR

properties was therefore not a post-fire innovation but a regulatory requirement

323 Paragraph 4.4.4(d) of LD’s 5th edition CoP [D1/709] applies expressly to canvas and prescribes specific standards as follows: “(d) On the face of the scaffold, suitable protective screen (such as nylon nets, plastic sheeting, canvas, etc.) should be provided to confine falling objects. Protective net, screen, tarpaulin/plastic sheeting installed on the face of the scaffold should have appropriate fire retardant properties in compliance with a recognised standard. Examples of recognised standards are listed below for reference: (i) GB 5725-2009 - Safety nets (or formerly GB 16909-1997 – Fine mesh safety vertical net); (ii) BS 5867-2:2008 (Type B performance requirements) – Fabrics for curtains, drapes and window blinds - Part 2: Flammability requirements - Specification; and (iii) NFPA 701:2019 (Test Method 2) - Standard methods of fire tests for flame propagation of textiles and films Other standards of equivalent fire retardant performance as per the above recognised standards may also be used.”

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of some three decades’ standing, with specific recognised standards identified from March 2023 onwards.

  1. However, no specific prescriptive FR standard existed for toe-boards, wooden

planks or nylon strips used as scaffolding components before the fire. The pre- fire regime relied on the general requirements of section 16 of the B(C)R without prescriptive content for these specific materials. (ii) The primary responsibilities of Prestige and the RI

  1. The same primary responsibility framework as applicable to scaffolding nets

applies to all other scaffolding protective materials. The primary obligation to ensure materials used in building works are of a nature and quality suitable for their intended use, and that appropriate precautionary measures are taken, rests with the RC and RI under sections 3 and 16 of the B(C)R. (iii) The Government’s supervisory responsibilities on the use of such other construction materials

  1. The ICU’s supervisory role under section 16 of the B(C)R extends in principle to

all construction materials and methods. However, under the MBIS, no proactive inspection or testing regime for materials was in place; the ICU relied on the RI’s compliance and complaints. No action was taken by the ICU concerning the combustibility or FR properties of plastic sheets, canvas, toe-boards or nylon strips at WFC: but this must be seen in the proper context that no complaints on these specific materials were received and the MBIS does not require onsite inspections in the course of works, or the testing of construction materials in the absence any complaint or enquiry.

  1. The LD had no enforcement power in relation to the FR properties of toe-boards

and wooden planks used on scaffolding prior to the announced CoP revision. The

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LD’s focus was on the physical condition and safe working order of scaffolding components (adequate to prevent falls) rather than their combustion properties.

  1. The explanation for no specific action having been taken concerning the

combustibility / FR properties of such other construction materials may lie in the regulatory framework: for toe-boards, no FR standard existed; for canvas and plastic sheeting, the FR requirement was set out in the BD’s circulars and LD’s CoP which was directed to contractors and RIs, with enforcement dependent on complaints or proactive site inspections by the BD/ICU. L4. Systemic and/or operational weaknesses on the regulatory level

  1. Before the fire, no legislation, CoP or practice note specified FR material

requirements for toe-boards, wooden planks or nylon strips used as scaffolding components. This was a constraint that applied across the industry. The MBIS does not require onsite inspections in the course of works, and there was no basis for testing construction materials absent a complaint or enquiry specifically raising the issue.

  1. For canvas and plastic sheeting, the FR requirement has existed in the BD’s

circulars and LD’s CoP, but verification depended on the same certificate-check methodology addressed in Section J above.

  1. The Secretary for Labour and Welfare has announced that the LD will revise the

CoP to specify material requirements for toe-boards 324 WS1/326. This is a direct and proportionate response to the identified regulatory inadequacy.

324 YUEN Tsz Lok 1st WS §42

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with “areas of common concern,” which (post-fire) includes the FR properties of all materials on scaffolding. Murphy Yuen confirmed: “after BD issued PNRC 85... BD is inviting LD to assist them in carrying out sample collecting work for scaffolding protective nets.” 325 [WS1/327].

encrypted digital certificates, sampling before installation, and random on-site inspections, extend to all protective materials on scaffolding, not only nets. The BD is reviewing the BO and considering legislative amendments to “empower BD to specify requirements over construction methods and procedures, and to clearly stipulate what constitutes ‘appropriate precautionary measures must be taken’ under current legislation” and will “include the safety requirements of building materials as statutory standards in BO and make non-compliance with such standards a new offence”326 [WS1/773]. These reforms address the general nature of section 16 of the B(C)R by providing specific prescriptive content that was previously lacking. More broadly, the Development Bureau (“DEVB”) and Construction Industry Council have commenced discussions with the industry on a roadmap to switch from bamboo scaffolding to metal scaffolding where appropriate, based on the needs of different work scenarios. Discussions commenced in December 2025 with a view to reaching consensus as soon as possible (Table of Improvement Measures, Item G2). The Construction Industry Council is also formulating a set of Good Practice Guidelines for the large-scale building maintenance industry, which will include recommendations on the subcontracting of such works to promote the healthy development of the 325 YUEN Tsz Lok 1st WS §45 326 PANG Yuk-lung 1st §144 (b) and (c)

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construction industry. The Guidelines are expected to be promulgated within 2026 (Table of Improvement Measures, Item G3).

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PART III(D): OTHER FACTORS CONTRIBUTING TO THE HEAVY CASUALTIES M. UNTENABILITY OF THE MEANS OF ESCAPE CAUSED BY CREATION OF ACCESSES

  1. The IFITF found that some windows in escape staircases were replaced with

movable wooden boards or aluminium composite panels as access openings to the exterior scaffolding.

  1. During the fire, these boards (and the openings left behind after the boards were

burnt off) permitted smoke and heat to infiltrate the staircases, rendering them incapable of providing a safe environment for evacuation and a safe route for firefighters to proceed to higher levels of the buildings.

  1. Of the 38 fatalities in the staircases and common areas of Wang Tai House, the

cause of death for 28 was inhalation of fire fumes. The full-scale fire tests confirmed that the wooden boards and aluminium composite panels ignited within minutes, whereas the fire-rated glass windows already installed in replacement of the original non-fire-rated windows remained intact and maintained a lower interior temperature.

  1. This section examines the evidence on the creation of access openings at WFC,

the causal link to the heavy casualties, and the respective responsibilities of the contractor, RI, and relevant Government departments. The primary responsibility lies with Prestige (as RC) and Will Power/Ng Yeuk (as the consultant and RI), who created or permitted the creation of access openings at regular five-floor intervals across all eight blocks in contravention of multiple provisions of the BO and the FS Code. The RI bore a specific statutory obligation to identify and report “unprotected openings at enclosure walls of exit routes” to the BA; this obligation was not discharged.

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requiring improvements: the MWCS classification of the window works as MW meant no prior plan approval or consent was required; the AFC checklist focused on procedural compliance rather than safety hazard identification; the ICU was not aware of the BD’s 20% site safety inspection practice for MW until after the fire; and the LD regarded the means of escape in occupied buildings as falling outside its OSH jurisdiction. The result was that no department had detected the access openings before the fire. This was also, as the Chairman observed, a situation in which “the workers’ interests and the residents’ interests seem to be on a collision course.” The Government’s post-fire improvement measures are directed at resolving this tension. M1. Creation of wooden or metallic accesses at escape staircases at every five levels of WFC – the relevant conversation records and other factual evidence showing the manner of creation of such accesses at WFC

the escape staircases were removed and replaced with movable wooden boards or aluminium composite panels at regular five-floor intervals across all eight blocks, creating access openings from the protected staircases to the exterior scaffolding. These openings permitted workers to enter and exit the scaffolding from the interior of the building without climbing the scaffolding itself.

Operation), a void was found between the scaffold and external wall outside the 25th floor of Wang Cheong House. The access to and egress from the bamboo scaffold was found unsafe since a worker “might be liable to fall more than 2 metres through the void.” As no worker was found working nearby, no prosecution was initiated. Two Improvement Notices were issued (one to Prestige and one to the scaffolding sub-contractor) requiring rectification of the hazardous 238

condition regarding access and egress within 14 days327 [WS1/370]. Li Man-pong confirmed in oral evidence that the LD’s action was directed at the fall risk for workers, not at the access openings [Day 16/81/2-9].

  1. On the ICU’s end, the access openings were visible in photographs submitted as

part of two Class I MW submissions for Blocks F and H (MWB02504820 and MWB02504821), which covered the erection of protective barriers and alteration of windows at escape staircases. They were randomly selected for AFC under the MWCS. The pre-commencement photographs (e.g. [I1-3/6227, 7971] showed windows already replaced by wooden boards with locks and warning signs, with some of the wooden boards partially opened.

  1. Yung, the ICU officer responsible for the AFC, explained the focus of the AFC

process in his evidence. “AFC is concerned with the final building product as it will stand upon completion”328 [WS14/2122]. The MW submissions in question had the particular intended purpose of replacing the original openable, non-fire- rated windows with fixed windows with fire-rated glass panels, a replacement regarded as an upgrade in terms of fire safety. Yung explained: “Since such replacement is regarded as an upgrade in terms of fire safety, the immediate existing condition of the original windows, which would be overtaken by event as they were meant to be replaced and would have been overtaken by the time the subject works were complete, was not a matter of primary concern during the relevant AFC. Consistent with the focus of AFC as described above, MWT's attention was directed at ensuring that the final building works resulted from the MW (i.e. the windows in replacement) would satisfy requirements under the BO” 329 [WS14/2124; Day 23/35/5 - 36/23]. In other words, the MWT’s primary

327 LAM Sau Ching 1st WS §56 328 YUNG Siu-lun 2nd WS §20 329 YUNG Siu-lun 2nd WS §25

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concern was whether the new fire-rated windows to be installed would comply with the BO, rather than the pre-existing condition of the windows being replaced.

  1. Notwithstanding the above, Yung explained that he examined the photographs

but interpreted the wooden boards as temporary protective measures for windows that were to be replaced, not as access openings. He explained: “At that time when we look at this photo, we find that this is some temporary protective measures on the windows.. At that time I don’t think it is an access for people to go in and out” [Day 23/30/24 - 33/9]. Yung further accepted that had he examined the photos more carefully during the AFC, he may not have concluded that the wooden boards were intended merely as temporary protection [Day 23/33/10-21].

  1. The BD received no complaints about access openings at WFC escape staircases

before the fire330 [WS1/834]. The BD’s post-fire special inspection found only 8 out of approximately 400 inspected buildings (approximately 2%) with access openings at escape staircases [Day 20/46/25 - 47/9]. M2. How the creation of such accesses at escape staircases resulted in rapid spread, as well as such heavy casualties (i) The relevant factual evidence

  1. Of the 38 fatalities in the staircases and common areas of Wang Tai House, 28

were found inside the staircase. The cause of death for all 28 was inhalation of fire fumes [ER9/2755]. The IFITF concluded: “This tragic outcome can likely be attributed to the compromised openings in the staircase... which allowed smoke and heat to infiltrate. These openings rendered the staircase, intended as a protected escape route and temporary place of safety, incapable of providing a safe environment for evacuation” (IFITF Report §10.6.2.2 [ER1/230]).

330 YUE Chak Sang 1st WS §67

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(ii) The IFITF’s investigations

  1. The IFITF’s findings, addressed in Section G5 above, established that the

movable boards replacing staircase windows “permitted smoke and heat to infiltrate the staircases” and that “severe blackening of ceilings above the opening indicated heavy smoke penetration. As a result, staircases intended to serve as protected escape routes were compromised, leaving residents without safe pathways for evacuation” (IFITF Report §10.6.2.1 [ER1/230]).

  1. The full-scale fire tests conducted in Sichuan demonstrated that “the wooden

board ignited at 4 min 40 sec and the aluminium composite panel ignited at 7 min 49 sec,” while the fire-rated glass window “remained intact and maintained a lower interior temperature, therefore ensuring a safer environment for evacuation” (IFITF Report §10.6.2.3-10.6.2.4 [ER1/230-231]). A resident’s account provided direct real-world corroboration. According to Ms Tse Yuk-wa, the occupant of Flat 204, Wang Cheong House, “during her evacuation at about 1455 hours, she observed a reflection of fire immediately outside the fire-rated windows along the staircase. Her experience provides direct confirmation of the effectiveness of the fire-rated glass window installed along the escape staircase, which successfully served a fire separation component and prevented smoke infiltration into the staircase under fire conditions” (IFITF Report §10.6.2.5 [ER1/231]). M3. The primary and supervisory responsibilities for such contributing factor (i) The standards and requirements applicable to the creation and use of such accesses and the LD’s occupational health and safety perspective

  1. The BD’s position on the legal status of the access openings is clear. AD Karen

Cheung of the BD confirmed that access openings affecting the structure of the fire escape staircase are “in contravention of regulations” [Day 20/48/10-16], that they breach section 16 of the B(C)R because they are “not an appropriate work

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procedure” [Day 20/49/3-8], and that they contravene clause F5.6(a) of the FS Code which requires that “all means of escape should be maintained at all times” [Day 20/49/9-16]. AD Lawsons Yue of the BD confirmed that when scaffolding was erected and “some windows of the exit staircases were removed and replaced with wooden access doors which are combustible, and the window openings are suspected to be misused for access of workers and delivery of materials to the scaffolding, all these allowed the exit route to communicate with the working area at the external wall, introducing additional fire hazard to, and adversely affecting the normal function of, the exit staircases”331 [WS1/833].

  1. The LD’s perspective on the access openings and that of the BD’s can be

summarised as below, reflecting their different mandate and the worker safety considerations that the access openings were intended to serve. 639.1. From an occupational safety standpoint, access openings might serve a worker safety function. Li Man-pong explained: “under the code of practice, it provides that we don’t allow the workers to climb on the scaffolding … In a High Court case 332 it says that climbing on the scaffolding would present danger” [Day 16/74/2-4, 74/6-7]. He confirmed that “the access openings would serve some purpose. In case there is fire on the scaffolding or the scaffolding is collapsing, the workers will have to flee, they don’t have to climb to the roof or down to the floor to escape” [Day 16/73/2-7]. When Counsel for the Committee asked whether access openings on the rear staircases presented any problems from the LD’s perspective, Li’s view was that “No, it’s not against the law” and that “how many they open and the way in which they do it, the Labour Department doesn’t impose any standard” [Day 16/73/8 - 74/20]. As the Chairman

331 YUE Chak Sang 1st WS §65 332 The judgment was subsequently submitted to the Committee [D3/1928-1987]

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followed upon, “having an access opening is all right in terms of occupational health and safety?... Because workers need to go up and down and they are not supposed to climb on the scaffolding to reach other floors?” Li confirmed: “Yes” [Day 16/81/10-23]. 639.2. At the policy level, Murphy Yuen provided a more nuanced position: “On the policy level, the access opening is not essential. The access opening is for exit and entry to the scaffolding, but there are many different ways to access the scaffolding.” He acknowledged that access openings have their use, “but we need to look at the location, the size, the number of openings. Contractors need to make a risk assessment and not just to make an opening where convenient. The access openings may involve structural problems and contractors may need to discuss this with the relevant departments before opening those accesses” [Day 16/97/19 - 98/20]. This framework represents the Government’s forward-looking position on how the competing safety interests identified by the Chairman should be balanced.

  1. The Government submits that, properly understood, the positions of the BD and

LD are consistent rather than divergent. 640.1. The BD’s position is that access openings at escape staircases contravene the BO because they compromise the fire resisting construction and the protected means of escape. The LD’s position is that workers require safe access to and egress from scaffolding and should not be required to climb the scaffolding itself. 640.2. These two positions are not in conflict: the LD’s occupational safety considerations identify a legitimate need for workers to access the scaffolding safely, but the BD’s position is that this legitimate need cannot

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be met by creating openings at the escape staircase, because to do so would compromise the very fire safety provisions upon which both workers and residents depend. 640.3. In other words, the need for safe access is acknowledged, but the escape staircase is not an acceptable location at which to provide it. (ii) The primary responsibilities of Prestige and the RI

  1. Under the MWCS, the primary responsibility for ensuring compliance rests with

the prescribed building professionals and prescribed registered contractors. They certified the MW submissions for the window works at WFC. Yung confirmed: the PBPs and PRCs “are required to supervise the carrying out of MW, notify BA of any contraventions of the regulations which would result from the carrying out of MW, and comply with the BO” 333 [WS14/2117]. The supervision plans submitted stated that the PBPs (Lai Ka Wing as AP and Chi Wuh Jian Joseph Duncan as RSE) would conduct weekly inspections, and the PRC representatives would conduct full-time and weekly inspections respectively334 [WS14/2125].

  1. The RI bears obligations in relation to access openings at two distinct stages.
  2. 1. First, at the inspection stage, the MBIS Code requires the RI to inspect fire

safety elements including “means of escape, means of access for fire fighting and rescue and fire resisting construction”335 [WS1/799]. The Code specifically requires that “unprotected openings at enclosure walls of exit routes or compartment walls, floors and ceilings” shall be identified and reported to the BA [J1-2/4774-4775]. Will Power, providing RI services for the WFC renovation and Ng Yeuk, i.e. the actual RI, bore

333 YUNG Siu Lun 2nd WS §30 334 YUNG Siu Lun 2nd WS §29 335 Cheung Yuk Ching 1st WS §58

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primary responsibility for identifying the access openings and reporting them as contraventions. AD Karen Cheung of the BD confirmed: “RI’s responsibility in their inspection, they would need to check whether there are any contraventions, to see whether access openings are made” [Day 20/50/19 - 51/7]. 642.2. Second, during the work process, Cheung confirmed that “RI has the responsibility to notify the BD when there are any contraventions” [Day 20/51/2-4].

  1. Will Power, providing RI services for the WFC renovation, and Ng Yeuk, i.e. the

actual RI, bore primary responsibility for notifying the ICU of such contraventions during the course of the works including the creation of access openings at escape staircases. This obligation was not discharged. (iii) The Government’s supervisory responsibilities

  1. As mentioned above, the ICU agreed that the question of whether access openings

at rear staircases contravene section 16 of the B(C)R falls within its purview. Yung confirmed that there were only discussions that access openings should not be formed in rear staircases after the fire. Prior to the fire, they did not consider the issue. When Member Chan asked: “with the benefit of hindsight you found it necessary?” Yung confirmed: “Yes” [Day 23/38/21 - 39/10].

  1. Under the MWCS, there is no requirement for the ICU to conduct regular

inspections during the course of works unless complaints are received [Day 23/22/22 - 23/14]. No complaint about the access openings had been received by the ICU.

  1. The AFC is a document check focused on procedural compliance of the B(MW)R;

it is not a safety hazard assessment. The relevant checklist items require only that

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photographs “have been provided/are clear” and that “the information... as shown on the plans/photographs tallies with the submitted form/are clear” 336 [WS14/2123; Day 23/34/9-14].

  1. Of the 48 MW submissions related to renovation works at WFC, only two (for

Blocks F and H) were randomly selected for AFC; the remaining 46 received no further check unless complaints were received [Day 23/24/15 - 25/4].

  1. An area calling for improvements lies in the BD-ICU communication gap

concerning site safety inspections. 648.1. The BD had been selecting 20% of Class I MW with supervision plans for immediate site safety inspections by the BD’s site monitoring team since April 2023; the ICU was not aware of such practice until December 2025. 648.2. Had the ICU followed the same practice, Yung confirmed there was “a fairly high chance that a site safety inspection could have been arranged by the ICU to the works site concerned (i.e. the windows along the staircases of Blocks F and H of Wang Fuk Court)”337 [WS1/671], because “the probability that one of the two Class I MW submissions of Wang Fuk Court... could have been selected for a site safety inspection is rather high”338 [WS1/671; Day 23/54 - 55/2]. 648.3. Lau also confirmed the BD-ICU communication gap directly: “Yes, there is a gap” [Day 24/73/19-22]. He accepted that “in hindsight, agree” and ICU should have aligned its practice with BD’s [Day 24/82/24 - 83/5].

336 YUNG Siu Lun 2nd WS §22 337 YUNG Siu Lun 1st WS §54 338 YUNG Siu Lun 1st WS §54

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to the BD. Yung made clear that this was not the intention: “Regarding communication with the BD, I am not passing the buck. It is just a case that after the incident, the site monitoring team made an enquiry and we found that the BD had this practice and we really did not know. I just wanted to explain this. It is not the case that I said we didn’t know and we didn’t do it. I’m just saying that if we had known this, we would have done so” [Day 23/58/5 - 59/5]. The Government is fully committed to supporting the Committee’s work in a full and frank manner, and the ICU would not conceal such communication gap from the Committee. In fact, once the ICU became aware of such communication gap, the ICU immediately aligned its practice with the BD from January 2026 onwards.

or are being put in place), there should be site safety inspection even for MW particularly in large-scale maintenance and renovation works. (iv) The actions taken by the ICU in the case of WFC

submissions (MWB02504820 and MWB02504821). The AFC checklist items were satisfied; the ICU’s Structural Vetting Team identified structural calculation issues which were resolved through correspondence with the PBP [WS1/666- 668]. However, the pre-commencement photographs showing the access openings were not identified as a safety concern during the AFC process. M4. Systemic and/or operational weaknesses on the regulatory level

  1. The design for window replacement works to be classified as MW subject to

control of the MWCS, without requiring prior plan approval or consent, meant there was no formal gateway for the ICU to review the design of the access

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openings before they were created as a matter of system design. AD Lawsons Yue confirmed: “replacement of fire-rated glass panels for exit staircase can be carried out under the simplified requirements of MWCS as long as the fire resisting construction for the original design of the exit staircase will not be prejudiced. Plan submission for prior approval and consent by ICU... is not required under the BO” 339 [WS1/835]. This is a design of the MWCS classification system in line with its rationale of simplifying the procedures for certain types of works with lower risks.

  1. The AFC checklist did not require identification of safety hazards visible in

photographs; it required only that photographs were provided, clear, and tallied with the submitted form. The Government acknowledges that this checklist design, while consistent with the AFC’s intended purpose (procedural compliance), was a weakness in terms of safety concerns that were visible on the face of the submissions. The photographs did contain indicators (locks, warning signs, a regular five-floor pattern) that could, on careful examination, have suggested the boards were functioning as doors rather than temporary window protection. Yung accepted that had he looked more closely, he may not have concluded the boards were temporary protection [Day 23/33/10-21; Day 23/44/17 - 45/2].

  1. Yung’s evidence was that he had never in 27 years of professional practice

encountered access openings at fire escape staircases340 [WS14/2124], that the submissions were for a replacement window project representing a fire safety upgrade341 [WS14/2124], and that the duration and manner of use of temporary protective works “are not matters required to be disclosed in MW submissions”342

339 YUE Chak Sang 1st WS §68 340 YUNG Siu Lun 2nd WS §26 341 YUNG Siu Lun 2nd WS §25 342 YUNG Siu Lun 2nd WS §28

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[WS14/2125]. These are contextualising factors, not a complete answer; but they are relevant to the characterisation of the issue.

  1. The BD-ICU communication gap on site safety inspections is an operational

weakness that affected the probability of detecting the access openings. Lau Fu- kwok accepted: “Yes, there is a gap” and confirmed that the ICU would “proactively reach out to BD to step up communications at different levels” [Day 24/73/19-22; Day 24/75/14-18].

  1. Yung accepted directly that “before the fire, the supervision of major renovation

seemed to be too lax”, though he qualified this by noting “I agree to the extent that we rely only on the contractors” [Day 23/13/23 - 14/15]. This acceptance, combined with the broader evidence that 46 out of 48 MW submissions received no audit whatsoever, and that the MWCS did not require site inspections during works, confirms that the pre-fire classification of major renovation as MW with minimal oversight may require reconsideration.

  1. The ICU implemented the BD’s 20% site safety inspection practice for Class I

MW with supervision plans in January 2026, immediately upon notification of the BD’s existing practice343 [WS1/671]. The ICU has increased the selection percentage to 30% for Class I minor works with supervision plans, effective since May 2026 ([Day 23/71/2-16]; Table of Improvement Measures, Item B3(ii)(c)). Enhanced inter-departmental communication has been established: BD-ICU quarterly meetings and a designated high-ranking professional liaison officer between BD’s SMT and ICU’s SMT [Day 24/97/15 - 98/5]. From the LD’s perspective, since 17 March 2026, the LD’s frontline staff has been directed to refer any non-conformity with the BD’s requirements on means of escape

343 YUNG Siu Lun 1st WS §44

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detected during site inspections to the BD and FSD for follow-up (Table of Improvement Measures, Item E5).

  1. The Committee’s observation at the hearing provides the constructive way

forward: “We need to try to strike a balance and plug the loopholes. There is a grey area at the moment. So in the future we need to discuss with the FSD how we can have the access openings yet ensure fire safety. The access opening should be fire-retardant, and if it is locked then it can block out some of the flames and the smoke” [Day 16/81/24 - 82/10]. The Government endorses this approach: the solution lies in collaborative multi-departmental design.

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N. THE FAILURE OF ALL FIRE ALARMS AT WFC

  1. The IFITF found that the FAS of all eight blocks of WFC were shut down before

the fire. Residents did not receive timely warnings, leading to delayed evacuation. Once they became aware of the fire, the means of escape had already been exposed to smoke and heat. The IFITF concluded that had the FAS in Wang Cheong House been operational, the security guard’s activation attempt at 1448 hours “could have provided residents with a critical evacuation alert during the key escape window between 1448 hours and 1458 hours, when escape routes were still tenable” (IFITF Report §10.4.4 [ER1/215]).

  1. This section examines how the FAS came to be shut down, the causal link

between that shutdown and the heavy casualties, the primary responsibilities of the private actors whose conduct caused the shutdown, and the supervisory role of the FSD.

  1. The primary responsibility for this contributing factor lies overwhelmingly with

private actors: Prestige, which directed an unlicensed person to drain the FS Water Tanks without supervision of an RFSIC which led to the switch off of the main power supply; China Status, which submitted SDNs to the FSD without ever visiting the site, without assessing the need and consequences for shutdown nor to effect the shutdown of the relevant FSI systems themselves, and without discovering, let alone, disclosing that the FAS had been deactivated; ISS (the PMC), which issued job orders directing its own non-RFSIC staff to illegally operate FSI and failed to coordinate between two simultaneously engaged RFSICs; and Victory Fire, which discovered the shutdown in November 2025 but failed to notify the FSD or contact and follow up with China Status.

  1. The Government also acknowledges that the FSD’s supervisory mechanisms

contained areas requiring improvements that the evidence has revealed,

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principally an SDN regime that was notification-based and absent of verification of the subject FSI / other remaining FSIs, the low audit rate for FS251 certificates, and absence of any mechanism to detect that a partial SDN concealed a wider FSI failure. These areas are addressed below together with the comprehensive reform programme that has since been initiated. N1. The FAS at each block of WFC being shut down (i) The part of WFC renovation works touching on the FH/HR System

  1. As described in Section E3 above, the FS Water Tanks at WFC are integral

components of the FH/HR System and are required to maintain a minimum water reserve of 18,200 litres for firefighting purposes [B2/1896]. The FS Water Tank is not a standalone structure; it is a named component of the FH/HR System under the applicable Code of Practice.

  1. The supply tank is expressly identified as one of the “major components” of the

FH/HR System under the Code of Practice for Minimum Fire Service Installations and Equipment (Specification of FH/HR System, para. 5.14(c)) [B2/860]. The consequence, as AD Keung confirmed, is that section 7(1) of Cap. 95B applies to the supply tank: any works on the supply tank that require the FH/HR System to be shut down must be carried out by, or under the direct supervision of, an RFSIC. It is contrary to the legislative intent for the installation, repair or maintenance of the supply tank to be carried out without the engagement and supervision of an RFSIC344 [WS9/1942]. It is also contrary to the legislative intent for the supply tank to be repaired by persons other than the RFSIC that is filing the relevant SDN; in other words, it is unacceptable for the RFSIC filing

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the SDN to be “just a paid rubber stamp to sign the corresponding SDN” while the actual works are carried out by non-RFSICs345 [WS9/1942-1943].

  1. For the avoidance of doubt, nothing in the FSD’s website [R3/3/1039-1040]

undermines the above. Whilst there is no “tick” of the appropriate classes of RFSICs in the entry under “Supply tank” in the “Table showing the systems/installations/equipment may be required to be installed in various premises under the “Code of Practice for Minimum Fire Service Installations and Equipment” and the appropriate classes of registered contractors for such works”, there is a “tick” in favour of Class 2 RFSICs in the entry under “fire hydrant/hose reel system” (which the “Supply tank” forms a component thereof) [WS9/1943].346 As explained by AD Keung of the FSD in his oral evidence, it is only if it is a standalone water tank not connected to any FS pipes (e.g. when the water tanks were constructed at the outset) that a RFSIC would not be required [Day10/173/25 – 174/2] – he nevertheless emphasized that even if the RFSIC has not been engaged at the time of pouring of concrete, the RFSIC should be there to inspect the process and also to check at the time of acceptance [Day10/173/14- 24]. In the case of WFC, one is not concerned with the construction phase, but rather renovation (and repair) works of FS Water Tanks which form part of the FH/HR System. As such, RFSICs must be engaged.

  1. Specifically, the renovation works at WFC included repair and re-tiling of the FS

Water Tanks, which required drainage of the tanks. This was agreed by the IO and Prestige as part of the renovation contract. Ms Lok Sin-ying of ISS confirmed that “the suggested approach was to renovate the FS water tank so that it could be used as a freshwater tank, a potable water tank” as a temporary measure while the freshwater tank was being repaired [Day 7/6/19-22].

345 KEUNG Sai Ming 5th WS §§19-20 346 KEUNG Sai Ming 5th WS §21

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water tank is unacceptable under the Code of Practice. The Code provides that, under normal circumstances, “the reserve water supply for fire fighting shall be contained in a supply tank,” meaning a water tank containing a specified quantity of water reserved solely for firefighting [B2/860]. Using an FS Water Tank simultaneously as a fresh water tank would diminish the quantity of water reserved for firefighting purposes by reason of consumption for domestic use. Changing the use of an FS Water Tank to a fresh water tank during the course of repair would also affect the entire FH/HR System and cause undue delay to the resumption of the system, and is therefore also unacceptable347 [WS9/1946]. The arrangement proposed by Prestige and accepted by ISS, whereby the FS Water Tank would be repurposed as a potable water tank while the freshwater tank was being repaired, was therefore contrary to the requirements of the Code of Practice from its inception.

Prestige reported FS Water Tank repair work would commence at Wang Tai House and Wang Chi House from 7 April 2025, that the FS Water Tanks would be suspended and an SDN submitted to the FSD, and that water-based fire extinguishers would be placed on odd floors [H1-3/6079-6080]. The decision to drain the FS Water Tanks was therefore a deliberate step in the renovation process. (ii) The engagement of China Status as the RFSIC

certificates348 to the FSD in connection with the FS Water Tank repair works. China Status did not personally inspect the FSI or supervise the drainage works. 347 KEUNG Sai Ming 5th WS §29 348 Wang Yan House (Block A) [B2/1419-1420]; Wang Tao House (Block B) [B2/1473-1774]; Wang Sun House (Block C) [B2/1499-1500]; Wang Kin House (Block D) [B2/1569-1570]; Wang Tai House (Block E) [B2/1627-

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in or around March 2025 he received a telephone call from Gordon Ho of Prestige “requesting a quote from China Status for submitting fire service installations Shutdown Notice(s) (‘SDN(s)’) to the Fire Services Department (‘FSD’) for the temporary shutdown of the fire hydrant or hose reel system (‘FH/HR System’) of 8 buildings in Wang Fuk Court, so that PC&E could carry out renovation works to the fire services water tanks of these 8 buildings”349 [WS2/1509].

representative of China Status attended Wang Fuk Court for the purposes of understanding first-hand the FH/HR System in place, the relevant renovation works proposed to be conducted there, the necessity of shutting down the FH/HR System for such renovation works, or the feasibility of putting in place additional fire services measures while the FH/HR System is shut down”350 [WS2/1514]. Leung also confirmed that he “did not attend Wang Fuk Court to personally shut down the FH/HR Systems” and that “no personnel of China Status did” 351 [WS2/1515].

go to Wang Fuk Court to check any of the FSIs and you did not independently make a judgment call in relation to the shutting down of the relevant FSIs” — “Yes” [Day 9/111/16-24]; “in relation to the submission of applications, no one from China Status have attended Wang Fuk Court to look at what the FH/HR system was like and why the system needed to be shut down, as well as whether it was 1628]; Wang Cheong House (Block F) [B2/1660-1661]; Wang Shing House (Block G) [B2/1696-1697]; Wang Chi House (Block H) [B2/1759-1760] 349 LEUNG Ping Kay (China Status) 1st WS §3 350 LEUNG Ping Kay (China Status) 1st WS §30 351 LEUNG Ping Kay (China Status) 1st WS §35. See also LEUNG Ping Kay (China Status) 2nd WS §63 [WS7/1886]

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necessary for the fire services still needed to be shut down” – “I never went there” [Day 9/115/16 – 116/4].

  1. When asked whether China Status, in submitting the SDN applications to the FSD,

was “just a rubberstamp” doing only what it was asked to do, Leung answered: “Yes” [Day 9/116/19-23].

  1. This concession is a significant adverse admission by China Status on the

question of RFSIC conduct.

  1. Leung was aware that the SDN regime required the filing RFSIC to have

personally inspected the FSI and assessed the need for shutdown: “the QP or AS of RFSIC should critically review the need for extension of FSI shutdown and personally confirm such need. You understand that requirement; right?” — “Yes” [Day 9/105/1-5]. He acknowledged that on the information provided in the SDN, the FSD would be “of the understanding that [he was] the contractor” and that “the information of the FSD would be incorrect” [Day 9/123/1-4]. When asked whether he agreed that “FSD would be of the view that [he was] the one to check the FS water tank”, he replied that “they wouldn’t know that someone else was responsible” [Day 9/123/23-25 – 124/1-2]. He further acknowledged that according to the SDN as submitted, “[he] said that [he] went to check [the FS water tank], [he] saw that there was water tank water leakage and there was a need to repair”, and replied in the affirmative when asked whether the FSD relied on the information provided in the SDN: “the FSD relied on the information provided to you by the FSD. Do you agree?” — “Yes” [Day 9/126/21 - 127/6].

  1. Although Leung initially insisted that it was “common practice” for one company

to help another company to submit documents for FS water tanks [Day 9/160/22

accountable for the acts committed by the other company [Day 9/164/19-25] and

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ultimately conceded that the RFSIC filing the SDN should take part in inspecting or repairing the relevant FSI: “So the circular letter was very clear. In seeing that if the registered FSI contractor is required to notify the FSD, it would be because they are engaged in the inspection or the maintenance work. They shouldn't act just like a rubberstamp to notify the FSD. Do you agree with that?” — “Yes” [Day 9/193/2-8].

  1. China Status had a prior disciplinary record [B2/2579]. In December 2021, China

Status was penalised by the FSD’s Disciplinary Board for failing to notify the FSD of an FSI shutdown at a building in Kwai Chung. Leung confirmed this: “that was about you breaching requirements on a shutdown notice?” — “Correct” [Day 9/95/11-13]. Despite this prior sanction, and despite the enhanced inspection regime that should have applied under the Demerit Points System following that sanction, China Status was not deterred from repeating the same conduct again at WFC.

  1. Importantly, the above not only implicates China Status, as it also implicates

Prestige which, not being itself an RFSIC 352 [WS9/1938], deliberately (i) engaged non-RFSIC to undertake renovation works of rooftop FS Water Tanks which are an integral part of the FH/HR System and yet (ii) approached and engaged China Status [R1/1-2] on paper to submit the SDNs to the FSD as a rubberstamp which created a false image of engagement of and supervision by an RFSIC and conceals the true picture from the FSD. (iii) How the FAS was eventually deactivated by a staff member of the PMC

  1. As mentioned above, the FH/HR System and FAS at WFC share a single main

power switch found in the booster pump room. The main power switch in the booster pump room of each of the eight blocks was physically switched off by

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Law Kwok-shui, an electrician employed by ISS (the PMC), as a result of the instruction of Prestige to drain the FS Water Tanks and pursuant to job orders issued by ISS management353 [WS2/1233-1234].

  1. Law’s witness statement sets out the three steps he understood to be required for

FS Water Tank drainage: turning off the upfeed switch to stop the upfeed pump; turning off the gate valves to drain the tanks at rooftop and ground floor; and closing the lever switch in the booster pump room to stop the booster pump. He understood this procedure from observations of Victory Fire during annual inspections354 [WS2/1234].

  1. Law knew that operating FSIs required an RFSIC licence. When asked why he

proceeded despite that knowledge, Law stated that he took the job order to Lok Sin-ying of the management office, who told him that “PC&E needed to empty the tanks and need my assistance because I have the electrician licence” [Day 7/85/21 - 86/10]. When pressed further — “since you know that you require a licence to operate the FSIs and even though Ms Lok told you to assist, you still did so. Why?” — Law answered: “Well, I just followed orders” [Day 7/86/11-16].

  1. AD Keung of the FSD confirmed that a non-licensed PMC switching off the main

power switch without the engagement of an RFSIC was contrary to law, unprecedented in his experience, and an elementary error: When asked whether there was any circumstance under which a PMC could turn on and off the switch without engaging a RFSIC, AD Keung answered: “That would be against the law.” When asked whether a third party turning off the switch was something rare or happened often, he confirmed: “I’d say the former... I’ve never seen somebody who does not belong to an RFSIC turning off the switch” [Day 10/18/24 - 19/12].

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He further confirmed: “just for draining the tank” there was no need to turn off the main switch, and that if a RFSIC had performed this act it would have been “a grave error” [Day 10/17/4 - 18/10].

  1. Lee Shing-foo, an ISS carpenter, assisted Law by opening the booster pump room

doors with the ISS master key on each occasion. Lee confirmed he did not enter the pump room and was unaware that the main switch controlled the FAS [Day 7/70/5-21].

  1. Between approximately May and August 2025, ISS received 8 job orders to assist

Prestige with FS Water Tank drainage across the 8 blocks. ISS currently holds only 3 copies H2/6779-6781355 [WS2/1255].

  1. There is a direct conflict of evidence between Law and Lok as to whether Law

raised the RFSIC licence requirement with Lok before proceeding. Law’s account is that he raised the issue and was told to proceed because he was an electrician356 [WS2/1233]. Lok’s account is: “I have no impression that they raised that” [Day 6/134/12-16]. On either version, ISS management issued job orders for work that required the engagement of an RFSIC without ensuring an RFSIC was so engaged.

  1. No proper record was kept of Prestige’s entry into the pump rooms to effect the

release of water. Cheng Tsz-ying of ISS confirmed that Prestige workers “did not really do the registration because they were stationed in the complex. They were all in uniform” [Day 8/60/11-22]. The consequence was that the FSI shutdown occurred without documentation: “If the procedure was followed, then there should have been a form stating that there was a drainage, working permits were

355 李承富 (Lee Shing-foo, ISS) 1st WS §17 356 LAW Kwok-shui 1st WS §19

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issued and the entry of whether the fire alarm system would be affected would be filled in” — “Prestige workers did not really do the registration” [Day 8/60/11- 19]. (iv) The maintenance and repair works carried out by Victory Fire at WFC from October to November 2025 up to the day of the fire

  1. Victory Fire’s annual inspections in March 2025 found no structural problems

with the FS Water Tanks. Wong Kin-wa (electrician of Victory Fire) confirmed: when asked whether during the March 2025 annual check anyone told him about leakage, he said “No”; when asked whether he found any structural problems with the water tanks on the rooftop, he said “No” [Day 5/97/14-17] [Day 5/106/11- 16].

  1. The rectification works contracted to Victory Fire in October 2025 concerned

defects in the FAS components (BGUs, alarm bells) and hose reel components identified in the March 2025 FS251s. They did not concern the FS Water Tanks themselves357 [WS2/1529].

  1. On 16 to 17 October 2025, Victory Fire’s plumbers attended WFC to replace hose

reel nozzles and gate valves. They discovered the FS Water Tanks in all 8 blocks were empty, having been drained as part of the renovation works. Chung Kit-man of Victory Fire was informed by his colleague Tong Hing-lun, who had been told by ISS’s Lam Man-yan that the tanks were empty due to ongoing renovation358 [WS2/1529]. Chung accepted that he could not complete testing of the replaced components without water in the FS Water Tanks [Day 6/30/19-25 – 31/1-2]. Notably, there is no contemporaneous evidence that Victory Fire asked Lam Man-yan for a copy of any SDN during their discussion on 16 October 2025 [Day 9/20/17-25 – 21/1-9], nor is there any contemporaneous evidence that Victory

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Fire asked Cheng Tsz-ying of ISS for a copy of any SDN during the alleged call to her on 17 October 2025 or until 17 November 2025 [Day 6/64/4-12, 66/7-25 – 67/1-21]. In the premises, it can be inferred on the available evidence that Victory Fire therefore made no attempt to verify the status of the FSI shutdown or to ascertain whether the FSD had been properly notified, despite having direct knowledge that the FS Water Tanks were empty across all eight blocks for more than one month and notwithstanding the hindrance it caused to the completion of their own repair works.

  1. On 19 November 2025, Victory Fire’s electricians Li Chun-yin and Wong Kin-

wa discovered that the main power switches in the booster pump rooms of all eight blocks had been switched off (not to mention that the upfeed pump was removed). Li Chun-yin found that in all eight blocks of WFC, the ground floor fire pump main power switch had been switched off, which caused the FAS and FH/HR System to be simultaneously inoperative359 [WS2/1538]. He immediately informed Cheng Tsz-ying of ISS. Cheng told them that due to large-scale renovation works the fire system had to be suspended, that an SDN had been submitted to the FSD, and that temporary fire extinguishers had been placed as required by the FSD360 [WS2/1530]. Chung Kit-man admitted in oral evidence that after what transpired after 19 November 2025, when told about the major maintenance works, he “thought it was more than that” because the part related to the upfeed pump was removed and that “if it was work relating to the repair of the FS tank, that would not be necessary” [Day 9/47/243-25 – 48/1-21]. Nonetheless, Victory Fire’s electricians were instructed by Chung Kit-man to continue the repair works and notwithstanding that a test could not be conducted with the main power switched off [Day 6/38/22-25 – 39/1-7]. Once again, there is no contemporaneous evidence that Victory Fire asked Cheng Tsz-ying for a

359 李俊賢 (LI Chun Yin, Victory Fire) 1st WS §5 360 CHUNG Kit-man 1st WS §8

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copy of the SDN on 19 November 2025 [Day 5/112/24-25 – 113/1-5] [Day 6/72/19-23] [Day 6/114/21-25], nor did Victory Fire take any steps to verify that the SDN covered the FAS (as distinct from merely the FH/HR System), despite its direct knowledge that the FAS had been shut down for a period of time (possibly for over a month since 16 October 2025 [Day 6/89/3-6]) and notwithstanding the hindrance it caused to the completion of their own repair works; they simply turned a blind eye.

  1. Contemporaneous documentary corroboration exists: at 11:51 to 11:54 am on 19

November 2025, Li Chun-yin sent WhatsApp messages to the block-specific WhatsApp groups stating the fire service pumps were switched off in relation to blocks B, A, C and others consecutively (e.g. [R1/686-692]).

  1. Cheng did not tell Victory Fire that the main switch controlled the FAS, did not

inform Victory Fire of the extent of the FSI shutdown, and did not pass the SDN documentation to Victory Fire. When asked why she did not show the SDN to Victory Fire or suggest coordination between the two contractors, Cheng answered: “it didn’t cross anyone’s mind that that needed to be done” [Day 8/70/17 - 71/13].

  1. On 26 November 2025, Victory Fire’s workers completed their rectification

works and left WFC by approximately 1:00 pm. No test of the FSI was conducted and no FS251 was issued. At 1:28 pm on the day of the fire, ISS’s Lam Man-yan called Chung Kit-man, who told him that for the connection system component, a certificate could not be issued because the FS Water Tanks had no water and the power supply to the water supply system and fire pump had been shut off361 [WS2/1531]. Less than two hours later, the fire broke out.

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N2. How the shutdown of the FAS resulted in such heavy casualties (i) The relevant factual evidence

  1. When the fire broke out at approximately 1451 hours on 26 November 2025, the

FAS in all eight blocks was de-energised. The fire alarms did not sound at any block during the critical early phase of the fire, depriving residents of the warning they needed to evacuate.

  1. Multiple resident witnesses confirmed they did not hear any fire alarm during the

fire. Residents only became aware of the fire through neighbours knocking on doors, smelling smoke, or seeing flames. Lam Man-yan of ISS attended the booster pump rooms of Wang Yan House, Wang Tao House and Wang Sun House on the afternoon of the fire and physically switched the main power switches back to “ON.” In Wang Yan House the fire alarm sounded; in Wang Tao House it did not; in Wang Sun House it sounded362 [WS2/1217-1218].

  1. The FSD’s FPFS arrived at WFC at approximately 1554 hours and attempted to

reactivate the FAS at Wang Yan House, Wang Tao House and Wang Chi House (the three blocks not yet significantly affected by fire). The FAS failed to reactivate even after the main power switch was turned to “ON” at Wang Yan House, Wang Tao House and Wang Chi House. Wang Chi House was unaffected by fire and the FAS should have remained intact, yet testing revealed it was non- functional363 [WS4/1799-1801].

  1. The comparative casualty data starkly illustrates the significance of the FAS

failure. AD Keung was asked whether the FAS failure was “definitely one major cause” for the difference in the number of deaths between Wang Sun House (which experienced momentary FAS activation and suffered only two deaths

362 Lam Man-yan 1st WS §§20-23 363 KEUNG Sai Ming 3rd WS §§4.1-4.8

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despite severe structural damage) and Wang Tai House (where the FAS never activated and over 80 persons perished) and a factor that “should be given some weight”. AD Keung answered: “I cannot rule this out” [Day 10/47/4 - 48/2].

  1. Had the FSD been notified of the FAS shutdown, particularly a shutdown of FAS

(which is critical) for an excessive period lasting for a few months, the FSD could have taken immediate enforcement measures such as issuance of FHAN and refusal of extensions of SDNs. Meanwhile and at the very least, the FSD would have updated the contingency plan to deploy additional appliances, notified the local fire station, and required the owner to implement standby measures and notify residents. None of this occurred. AD Keung confirmed by reference to the FSD’s Circular Letter No. 1/2021: “it is imperative that the FSD should be promptly notified of the FSI shutdown so that the units of the FSD may formulate appropriate contingency plan and advise the owners/occupiers of the premises to take additional fire safety measures during the shutdown period”364 [WS9/1939]. (ii) The IFITF’s investigations and expert evidence

  1. The IFITF’s findings on the FAS shutdown and its contribution to casualties are

addressed in Section G5 above. The IFITF concluded that the security guard’s attempt to activate the FAS at Wang Cheong House at 1448 hours, had the system been operational, “could have provided residents with a critical evacuation alert during the key escape window between 1448 hours and 1458 hours, when escape routes were still tenable” (IFITF Report §10.4.4 [ER1/215]). Instead, “as the FAS was not functional, residents remained unaware of the immediate danger until evacuation was no longer viable” (IFITF Report §10.4.5 [ER1/215]).

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N3. The primary and supervisory responsibilities for such contributing factor (i) The regulatory and supervisory regime for the shutdown of FSI (1) FS251, its filing and response / following up upon receipt

  1. Under Regulation 9(1) of Cap. 95B [B2/179], whenever an RFSIC installs,

maintains, repairs or inspects any FSI, it must within 14 days after completion of the work issue a certificate (FS251) to the person on whose instructions the work was undertaken and forward a copy to the DFS. The certificate must state the address, a description of the FSI concerned, the date of completion, the nature of the work, and whether the FSI is in efficient working order. An RFSIC who signs or issues a false or misleading certificate commits an offence under Regulation 9(2A) and 9(3) of Cap. 95B.

  1. The FSD’s processing of FS251s is predominantly manual and paper-based

(approximately 95% of submissions are by fax or post), subject to significant time lags between signing, submission and inputting into the Integrated Licensing Fire Safety and Prosecution System (“LIFIPS”). AD Keung accepted that in one documented case, an FS251 signed in December 2023 was not faxed to the FSD until August 2024 and not inputted into LIFIPS until November 2024 [Day 10/105/16-24].

  1. The FSD’s audit of FS251s operates on a random sampling basis. AD Keung

confirmed that only approximately 300 annual inspection checklists out of approximately 60,000 buildings per year (0.5%) are document-checked [Day 10/60/12-22]. Such audit of checklists is, however, only one component of the FSD’s overall monitoring activity. The FSD also conducts document reviews of

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FS251 certificates submitted by RFSICs, on-site verification inspections, and functional tests of FSI on a selective basis365 [WS1/107-108].

  1. AD Keung explained these components in detail during oral evidence.
  2. 1. For document review, the FSD selects approximately 15,000 out of

300,000 certificates submitted annually for checking, including all 20,000- odd certificates relating to licensed premises (restaurants, guesthouses, bed spaces, dangerous goods stores) and approximately 30,000 certificates reporting defects, which are followed up individually [Day 10/57/18-24; Day 10/61/11-19]366. In other words, a total of 65,000 out of 300,000 certificates received annually will be audited by the FSD for follow up. 703.2. For verification inspections, the FSD conducts approximately 10,000 random on-site inspections per year, approximately 2,000 follow-up inspections arising from defect certificates, and approximately 1,000 targeted inspections of contractors with accumulated demerit points [Day 10/62/2-18]. 703.3. For functional tests, the FSD conducts approximately 1,000 tests per year arising from reports of fire alarm mis-activation or actual fires, together with approximately 80 targeted functional tests of contractors with high demerit scores [Day 10/62/22 - 63/7].

365 KEUNG Sai Ming 1st WS §5.4.2 366 See Chinese transcript at [Day 10/31/29-34] for more clarity: “姜世明先生:係。咁剛才我講你入份證書畀我,我 會抽一萬五千份。此外,嗰三十萬證書裏面其實有兩萬份係關於一啲持牌處所、餐廳食肆、酒店賓館、危險倉 等等。咁嗰啲因為要同我哋續牌,或者係申請牌照呢,我哋都係份份都有所跟進。此外,三十萬份證書裏面約 有每年三萬份,佢會喺個證書嘅第三部分係寫咗有一啲損壞事項,咁呢三萬份損壞事項我哋都有所跟進,咁呢 個我將會歸落去我呢個(English Spoken)呢個類別。”

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  1. 4. AD Keung emphasised that these different activities should be viewed

collectively rather than in isolation [Day 10/60/20-24]. (2) The FSI SDN, its filing and response / following up upon receipt

  1. The SDN mechanism under the FSD’s Circular Letter No. 1/2021 [B2/1302] was

a notification (not approval) mechanism.

  1. When defects requiring overnight or continuous shutdown of more than 24 hours

are identified, the RFSIC is required to notify the FSD by submitting an SDN. Upon receipt, the local fire station must visit the premises within 24 hours, conduct a risk assessment, issue an advisory letter, and monitor progress. The system relies entirely on the accuracy / truthfulness and timeliness of the RFSIC’s reporting. AD Keung confirmed: “the whole mechanism is built on the contractor’s integrity and his effective and timely reporting of the shutdown” — “Agree”; “So if the contractor makes a mistake it’s not possible for the FSD to know” — “Well, unless it falls within the scope of random inspection” [Day 10/84/8-16].

  1. The FSD’s Circular Letter No. 1/2021 explains the rationale for the notification

system [B2/1302]: “it is imperative that the FSD should be promptly notified of the FSI shutdown so that the units of the FSD may formulate appropriate contingency plan and advise the owners/occupiers of the premises to take additional fire safety measures during the shutdown period, where necessary.” The RFSIC is identified as “the most appropriate person to notify the FSD accordingly” [B2/1302] because the RFSIC “will be engaged by the FSI owners to inspect FSIs to see whether they have to be shut down for maintenance/modification/repair”367 [WS9/1939].

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statement explains: “The FSD is not privy to the engagement process nor the contractual negotiations and therefore will not be directly involved in the technical content of the works. The RFSIC engaged will inspect the FSI and if there is a need for them to be shut down for maintenance / modification / repair overnight or for more than 24 hours continuously, the RFSIC will notify the FSD of the shutdown. However, the notification system for FSI shutdown is not an approval mechanism as the RFSICs should bear the ultimate responsibility in certifying the FSIs are in efficient working order”368 [WS8/1911].

the RFSIC is “actively and consciously making a professional assessment that an extension is required” and to enable the FSD to verify that repair works are being overseen by an RFSIC, to identify the latest RFSIC responsible, and to ascertain whether the RFSIC may have been removed from the register369 [WS8/1912].

“no further visit/inspection or duplicated risk assessment would be required” under the pre-fire regime. The rationale given is that “the initial risk assessment had already been completed, the necessary mitigation measures had been implemented, and the relevant stakeholders including residents had been informed of the shutdown”370 [WS1/113]. (ii) The primary responsibilities of Prestige and the RI

works of the FS Water Tanks which are an integral part of the FH/HR System without supervision of an RFSIC and (ii) directed the drainage of the FS Water 368 KEUNG Sai Ming 4th WS §9 369 KEUNG Sai Ming 4th WS §10 370 KEUNG Sai Ming 1st §6.8

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Tanks as part of the renovation works which eventually resulted in ISS (a non- RFSIC) performing the physical shutdown of the main power switch. Under section 7(1) of Cap. 95B, “no person other than a registered contractor shall maintain, inspect or repair any fire service installation or equipment which is installed in any premises.” Shutting down any FSI is considered an act that can only be carried out by an RFSIC371 [WS8/1911]. AD Keung stated that this arrangement was “unacceptable”372 [WS9/1944].

  1. When Prestige informed Leung Ping-kay of China Status at the outset that the

building management (ISS, a non-RFSIC) would “handle the physical shutting down of the FH/HR Systems,” Leung raised no objection and sought no clarification. When asked whether this struck him as legally impermissible, he replied: “I don’t know how to answer you” [Day 9/175/7-13]. When asked who would actually perform the shutdown, he said he was simply told “someone would make the arrangement” [Day 9/174/24 - 175/5].

  1. AD Keung confirmed that “from the FSD’s stance, under current law, it is explicit

that they have to personally monitor the shutting down of the FS system” and that allowing a non-RFSIC to perform the act was “against the law” and “something that one must never do” [Day 10/39/9-20].

  1. A further point requires emphasis. Prestige itself is not an RFSIC. AD Keung

confirmed that although a separate entity bearing a similar name, Prestige Construction & Fire Engineering Co Ltd, holds RFSIC registration (RC1/0563 and RC2/0744), that company is distinct from Prestige and did not carry out any FSI-related works at WFC 373 [WS9/1938]. Prestige therefore possessed no qualification whatsoever to direct, arrange or supervise any works touching on

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FSIs. The arrangement was one in which a non-RFSIC contractor engaged non- RFSIC to undertake renovation works on FSIs and directed a non-RFSIC PMC to operate FSIs as part of the renovation works, with a third-party RFSIC engaged solely to provide the paperwork.

  1. In short, every actor in this chain, save for the paper signatory, lacked the

statutory authority to do what they did. (iii) The primary responsibilities of China Status

  1. China Status submitted SDNs to the FSD without conducting any site

inspection 374 [WS2/1514], without personally assessing the need and consequences for shutdown375 [WS2/1517], without effecting the shutdown or verifying which FSI systems were actually being shut down376 [WS2/1515], and without ever discovering [Day 9/121/16-21], let alone, notifying the FSD that the FAS (as distinct from the FH/HR System) had been shut down.

  1. China Status’s SDNs consistently ticked only the FH/HR System box, leaving the

FAS box blank. Leung admitted this was because “we only knew that the water tanks was being worked on” and that he filled the forms out as Prestige asked him to [Day 9/121/16-21]. China Status never realised that the FAS had in fact been shut down, let alone, report it to the FSD because it never visited the site. As a result, the FSD received no notification that the FAS was also inoperative, and the contingency plan was never updated to reflect this critical additional risk.

  1. AD Keung’s assessment was unequivocal, China Status also misrepresented to

the FSD that it was the RFSIC carrying out the relevant repair works and that the repairs were needed as a result of leakage of the FS Water Tanks: “China Status

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not only failed the expectation of the public, but also breached the FSD’s trust by falsely representing to the FSD that it was the relevant RFSIC carrying out the relevant repair works based on the defect(s) as detected. Moreover, the relevant FS251s were not provided to the FSD with the corresponding SDNs until October 2025, and descriptions of defects in the concerned FS251s have misled the FSD by giving the impression that the shutdown of the FSI was due to repairs needed as a result of ‘leakage of FS water tanks’ (without mentioning ‘empty tanks’, let alone the plan to use the FS Water Tanks for other purposes, or indeed the shutdown of the FAS)”377 [WS8/1915]. Leung admitted that the FSD would be so misrepresented as to the identity of the RFSIC carrying out the relevant repair works [Day 9/122/13-18] [Day 9/123/1-4] [Day 9/123/19-25 – 124/1-2].

  1. Leung admitted frankly that he did not exercise his discipline in looking at

whether his acts breached the requirements in the circular letter [Day 9/136/3-16; Day 9/155/20 – 156/1], and that he “breached all of [his] obligations” shown to him in the circular letter [Day 9/156/2-5].

  1. It is “never part of the notification system and... unacceptable for one RFSIC to

sign the SDN while the actual works are carried out by another RFSIC (let alone, as it transpires in the case of Wang Fuk Court, by sub-contractors who are not even RFSICs). Such a practice circumvents statutory accountability and undermines the FSD’s ability to enforce disciplinary action against the responsible RFSIC should they fail to follow the relevant requirements” 378 [WS9/1939].

  1. When the FSD made enquiries of China Status in October 2025 following

multiple extension applications, Leung did not disclose to the FSD that China Status was playing a purely administrative role and was not the RFSIC

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conducting or supervising the works [Day 9/170/14-21]. The FSD therefore remained under the false impression throughout the relevant period that China Status was the responsible RFSIC inspecting, supervising and certifying the FSI works at WFC [Day 9/122/13-18] [Day 9/123/1-4] and that the works were necessitated by leakage of the FS Water Tanks [Day 9/123/19-25 – 124/1-2] [Day 9/126/21-25 – 127/1-6].

  1. Overall, AD Keung confirmed: it was “unacceptable for Tin Hung and Red Sun,

both not being RFSICs, to carry out the concrete works at the water tanks particularly when China Status is just a paid rubber stamp to sign the corresponding SDN” 379 [WS9/1942].

  1. AD Keung’s 5th Witness Statement elaborated on the specific obligations that

China Status failed to discharge. The Code of Practice for Inspection, Testing and Maintenance of Installations and Equipment requires at clause 1.16 that the RFSIC “shall advise the residents/occupants/property management company to take preventative measures to mitigate the risk during the works period when any FSI is defective or shut down for inspection, maintenance, modification or repair” [B2/884]. Without attending the site and supervising the works, an RFSIC cannot properly discharge this advisory obligation. The same Code further provides at Appendix 9, Item (I), that the “QP/AS of RFSIC should critically review the need for extension of FSI shutdown and personally confirm such need” [B2/961].

  1. Without attending the site, an RFSIC cannot critically review whether an

extension is required or whether the system should be resumed to normal operation. China Status did neither: it never attended the site, never advised the residents or PMC of preventative measures from its own assessment, and never personally confirmed the need for any of the 85 extensions it submitted for all 8

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blocks at WFC. Each extension was filed mechanically on the basis of information provided by Prestige, without any independent professional judgement and without any concern for the progress of the repair works. This was admitted by Leung: “You didn’t carry out any inspection, you just did what you were told to do, you didn’t explore for how long the system needed to be shut down and whether it could be shut down for a shorter period of time. And this is against the circular letter we went over just now. Do you agree? […] What does ‘mm’ mean? Does it mean you agree?” – “Yes” [Day 9/129/11-20]. (iv) The primary responsibilities of the PMC

  1. The PMSA Code of Conduct specifically requires licensed PMCs to monitor the

progress of the RFSIC’s work, follow up timely with the RFSIC on required rectifications, follow up timely with the RFSIC that it has notified the DFS of FSI shutdowns, and assist FSD officers during visits [B2/2631]. AD Keung confirmed: “had ISS monitored or checked the guidelines, then this should not have happened” — “I agree. It should not have happened” [Day 10/21/12-20].

  1. ISS bears the responsibility for: issuing job orders directing non-RFSIC staff to

operate FSI; failing to coordinate between the two engaged RFSICs (Victory Fire and China Status); and failing to ensure FSI were in efficient working order.

  1. Lok Sin-ying of ISS confirmed that she knew the water tank was part of the FSI:

“Did you know that the water tank is part of the FSI?” — “Yes” [Day 7/31/17- 19]. Yet when asked whether it occurred to her that draining the FS Water Tank should be done by a RFSIC rather than the property company, she answered: “No, it did not occur to me” [Day 7/33/19-24]. She did not ask Prestige whether they would engage a RFSIC [Day 7/33/14-18].

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responsibility to know when the fire systems were suspended and when they would be resumed, describing this as “a serious matter” [Day 8/40/25 - 41/4]. Yet despite this knowledge, she never followed up on the duration of the shutdown, never coordinated with Victory Fire, and never passed the SDN documentation to Victory Fire [Day 8/70/17 - 71/13].

SDN and did not know the tanks in all eight buildings were empty until the day of the fire. When asked “nobody told you?”, he answered: “Yes” [Day 7/141/5- 17]. He confirmed he did not have a chance to see any SDN documentation up to the point of the fire [Day 7/158/8-15]. This is reinforced by the evidence of the WhatsApp exchange between Lam and Chung Kit-man on the night of the fire: Lam asked Chung “how to get those forms because I’ve never downloaded them before” and asked whether there were any certificates in relation to WFC’s buildings [Day 7/147/11-25 - 148/1-2], and Chung texted Lam a link to the SDN standard form [H3/6798]. This is conduct consistent only with Lam never having previously seen or received any SDN documentation in relation to the FS Water Tank shutdown.

instances like this... coordination is very important. We haven’t really seen much problem with coordination before but we have seen in this incident coordination is an issue” [Day 10/28/23 - 29/19]. There was no express regulatory requirement compelling PMCs to coordinate between multiple simultaneously engaged RFSICs, and the evidence demonstrates that ISS did not do so. 274

(v) The primary responsibilities of Victory Fire

  1. Victory Fire was engaged for the annual inspection and rectification works at

WFC. When its staff discovered during their repair works on the FH/HR System and FAS at WFC that the FS Water Tanks were empty (16 October 2025) and the main power switches were switched off (19 November 2025), Victory Fire had an obligation under the FSD’s circular letter No. 1/2021 to notify the FSD. Not only did it fail to do so, it did nothing to reinstate both FSI systems even though their repair works on the FH/HR System [Day 6/30/19-25] and FAS could not be tested as a result [Day 5/108/22-25 – 109/1-5] [Day 6/38/22-25 – 39/1-7].

  1. AD Keung rejected Victory Fire’s position that it had done what it was “supposed

to do”: “I won’t accept what he said because, in this trade, we work with fire services installations and the ultimate goal is to protect residents. If the power supply is cut off, even if the system is operational, it does not achieve the intended effect. The alarm will not sound, there’s no water. And we have already reminded them in the circular letter to notify us so that we can implement other measures... deploy more appliances, notify the residents” [Day 10/32/5-24].

  1. By 16 October 2025, Chung Kit-man’s own evidence establishes that he knew

the FS Water Tanks in all eight blocks had no water and that the upfeed pumps had been switched off [Day 6/28/23 - 29/14]. He acknowledged that he had considered that the main switch could have already been shut off for more than one month from 16 October to 19 November; “And did you also think that the lever switch had been turned off for a month, since 16 October?” – “Yes” [Day 6/89/3-6]380.

  1. Yet Victory Fire took no steps to submit its own SDN, made no enquiry of China

Status, did not ask ISS to restore power before testing, and did not notify the FSD

380 More clearly reflected in Chinese transcript at [Day 6/55/2-4]

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of the FAS shutdown, let alone the empty water tank. When asked whether he considered conducting an inspection to check the situation during the one-month period between 17 October and 17 November 2025, Chung confirmed: “we didn’t consider this” [Day 6/63/12-18].

  1. When Victory Fire’s electricians discovered the lever switches were turned off

on 19 November 2025, Wong Kin-wa accepted the management office’s explanation without further enquiry: “we felt that, well, if a contractor was involved, the contractor should know what they were doing” [Day 5/126/14-21]. He confirmed he did not ask Prestige, and did not ask China Status directly [Day 5/114/19 – 115/4].

  1. AD Keung confirmed that the obligation to notify the FSD fell on both Victory

Fire and China Status: “Both of them” [Day 10/33/11 - 34/16]. Victory Fire could not shelter behind the existence of China Status’s SDN for the FH/HR System: quite apart from the issue of the empty water tank, it knew the FAS had been shut down for over 24 hours (and possibly for over a month) and yet did not obtain copies of the SDN to check whether the FAS was covered by them despite the admitted unusualness in the situation [Day 6/90/8-12]. (vi) The Government’s supervisory responsibilities: (1) The audit-check system for all submissions received, and the FSD’s focus

  1. The FSD’s monitoring of RFSIC performance operates through various distinct

mechanisms: document review of FS251s; verification inspection; and functional test of FSI. These are separate activities conducted on different occasions and on a selective basis.

  1. The FSD conducts proactive audit checks on a percentage of submitted FS251s.

For certificates indicating no defects, the local fire stations also conduct a

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significant number of on-site verification inspections annually. Throughout the process, any defects or discrepancies identified are followed up, and instances of non-compliance or misconduct by RFSICs may be uncovered381 [WS1/106-107].

  1. In general, visits and inspections to a domestic estate like WFC by various units

of the FSD are initiated from three aspects: fire hazard complaints, FSI-related visits and inspections, and proactive visits by local fire stations under the Risk- based Building Fire Safety Visit Programme382 [WS1/114-116].

  1. High-priority complaints (involving “imminent danger” to life such as locked

escape routes) trigger a response within 24 hours. Normal-priority cases trigger inspection within 10 working days383 [WS1/114].

  1. The Risk-based Building Fire Safety Visit Programme, launched in 2018,

provides for proactive risk-based visits across the territory to promote fire safety education. WFC was not selected under this programme during the renovation period [Day 10/96/13]. (2) The FSD’s response upon receipt of SDNs, complaints or enquiries, in particular when site inspections would be carried out

  1. AD Keung’s evidence established that the FSD visits and inspections at WFC

were initiated from three aspects: fire hazard complaints, FSI-related visits/inspections (including defective FSI and shutdown cases), and proactive visits by local fire stations [Day 10/95/10-16].

  1. Between July 2024 and November 2025, the FSD conducted a total of 26

visits/inspections at Wang Fuk Court: 18 FSI-related visits/inspections (6 relating to defective installations and 12 relating to shutdowns), 7 complaint inspections

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(2 relating to EVA, 3 relating to means of escape, and 2 relating to other matters), and 1 proactive visit384 [WS1/114-119].

  1. For complaint-driven inspections, the FSD operates under a priority classification

system. “High priority” complaints alleging imminent danger to life, such as locked escape routes, require investigation to commence within 24 hours, while “normal priority” cases trigger inspection within 10 working days385 [WS1/117; Day 10/69/20-25]. AD Keung confirmed that for complaint-led investigations, no prior notification is generally given because this could compromise the investigation386 [WS8/1909; Day 10/70/9-14].

  1. Among the complaint inspections at WFC, two related to matters other than the

means of escape or EVA. One concerned a public complaint via 1823 about the storage and potential use of large quantities of polystyrene boards (25 September 2024), and the other concerned a complaint about the installation of solar panels on the roof floor (17 November 2024)387 [WS1/118]. In each case, the FSD conducted a site inspection focused on the subject matter of the complaint. 744.1. For the complaint about the storage and potential use of the polystyrene boards, no breach of the FSO was found, and as the case had already been referred by 1823 to the ICU, no further referral was made by the case officer. 744.2. The solar panel complaint was referred to the ICU for follow-up.

  1. In relation to the complaint inspection on 25 September 2024, it was preceded by

another complaint inspection at or around the same period. The FSD received a

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complaint in the morning of 13 September 2024 that polystyrene boards were obstructing the means of escape and the FSD carried out inspection in the afternoon of 13 September 2024, finding that there was no obstruction to the means of escape or EVA [B2/1737-1739]. This was explained further by AD Yung in his oral evidence [Day 17/20/9 – 22/14].

  1. For the proactive visit to WFC, AD Keung explained in oral evidence that the

visit to WFC took place on 19 October 2025. During such visit, officers of the FSD checked whether the EVA was obstructed and tested the street fire hydrants [Day 10/96/1-25].

  1. In addition to FSI-related visits, complaint inspections and proactive visits, the

FSD also responded to enquiries from stakeholders. For example, the FSD organised a fire safety talk at Wang Fuk Court attended by approximately 100 residents. Station Commander Herman Hor explained that such talks are arranged upon application by members of the public and are not automatically triggered by major renovation works [Day 17/68/1-25].

  1. As to the response to SDNs, upon receipt of an SDN, the objectives of the on-site

risk assessment are twofold: “to assess the risk from an operational perspective” and “to assess the scale and type of additional fire safety measures to be taken by FSI owner(s) during the shutdown period” 388 [WS1/111]. The assessment focuses on building type, configuration, type of occupancies affected, availability of water supply for firefighting purposes, state of housekeeping, and information provided by the RFSIC about the types of FSI that are inoperative or shut down389 [WS1/112].

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designed to verify compliance with standby measures rather than to check the accuracy / truthfulness of the SDN or the condition of other FSI systems. AD Keung confirmed: “Because it’s just a partial shutdown, you would assume that other systems would still be in working order?” — “Correct” [Day 10/84/4-7].

declarations exploited.

as stated on the SDN and did not proceed further to verify the condition of the FAS or any other remaining parts of the FSI systems. AD Keung accepted: “before the incident, when a fire safety system is defective, the Fire Services Department has not checked other systems to see if they’re in working order... if you’re talking about that case, then that is true” [Day 10/86/5-11].

illustrates the operational weakness in the SDN regime. AD Keung explained that verifying FSI operability requires more than visual inspection: “You can’t just conduct visual inspection to check if the system is in efficient working order. You need to conduct functional tests, and for some buildings they may have not only two systems, but seven” [Day 10/85/7-14]. The SDN regime did not require the attending officer to enter the booster pump room, check whether the main switch was in the correct position, check the FAS independently, and verify the condition of the FS Water Tank; for other circumstances, the FSD had “other kinds of audits and check” [Day 10/86/9-11]. AD Keung accepted that the officer’s finding that “defects were the same as stated on the shutdown notice” was based on an assumption rather than independent verification [Day 10/122/16-25], and that 280

“based on the mechanism then, that was adequate, but we think there’s room for enhancement” [Day 10/123/7 - 124/2].

  1. The FSD conducted one proactive visit to WFC during the entire renovation

period (19 October 2025), and this visit was limited to checking the EVA and street fire hydrants; no inspection of FSI, pump rooms or main switches was conducted. AD Keung confirmed: “while Wang Fuk Court was undergoing major repairs, that was the only visit that was done” [Day 10/97/15-17] and that “before the fire in relation to Wang Fuk Court” there would not be a surprise check arising specifically from major renovations [Day 10/73/14-18].

  1. The Chairman observed: “Do you agree — of course with hindsight is what we’re

doing now — the fire risk of buildings under major renovation is almost the highest because, in addition to existing fire risks, there are also people living there?” AD Keung confirmed: “Well, speaking today, I agree with what you say” [Day 10/101/6-12]. The Government accepts this observation and acknowledges the absence of a specific arrangement for enhanced FSI inspection or surprise checks triggered by major renovation works as an area requiring improvements. (vii) The FSD’s handling of the FS251s and SDNs in the case of WFC and actions taken

  1. By way of illustration, China Status submitted the first SDN for Wang Tai House

on 7 April 2025 (estimated completion 20 April 2025). The FH/HR System remained suspended through 16 further extension notices until the day of the fire on 26 November 2025, a total shutdown period of approximately 7.5 months. The same pattern repeated at Wang Chi House (also 7 April 2025, 16 extensions). The

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FSD’s block-by-block response across all eight blocks is set out in detail in AD Keung’s witness statement390 [WS1/123-135].

  1. AD Keung did explain that under the pre-fire practice, the FSD may intervene if

there are extensions for a long time. However, he frankly admitted that based on the data available to the FSD, many works concerning FSIs may take more than several months to complete by reason of inter alia the time required for owners to engage RFSICs to undertake the work, etc. He also explained that what the FSD was most concerned with at the time were buildings which do not even have RFSICs or conduct annual inspections. Against such context, the FSD did not question the extension notices at WFC (including the 16 extension notices for Wang Tai House or Wang Chi House). Under the prevailing mechanism, as long as an RFSIC was shown to be engaged and submitting extensions, no further enquiry was initiated for up to one year. AD Keung accepted: “SDN being extended 16 times, if there were new SDNs being submitted... over seven months you did not ask how come it would take so long” — “Right” [Day 10/134/8-16]. When asked whether, regardless of the number of SDNs (85 across the estate), “there is no mechanism to follow up on the matter, even if the extension lasted for over a year,” AD Keung confirmed: “Agree.” He also acknowledged that such practice was “not ideal” [Day 10/146/12-22].

  1. The FSD was unaware that two RFSICs (Victory Fire and China Status) were

simultaneously engaged at WFC. AD Keung attributed this in part to the volume of paper-based submissions and time lags in LIFIPS, which prevented detection of the back-to-back submission of Victory Fire’s FS251 (31 March 2025) and China Status’s first SDN (7 April 2025). He acknowledged that “there is a large amount of certificates posted to our department, 300,000 every year” and that

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“there are still certificates being posted to us and there is a time lag” [Day 10/34/17 - 36/20].

  1. A further consequence of the FS251 processing lag was that the FSD could not

determine whether a “major defect” requiring enhanced enforcement action was involved. China Status did not submit its FS251 until October 2025, approximately six months after the SDN was filed in April 2025. AD Keung accepted: “in the six months nobody checked the certificate to see if a major defect [was involved]” — “Correct” [Day 10/138/16-18]. In the absence of timely FS251, the attending officer had to resort to calling China Status to ascertain the reason for the shutdown which resulted in the classification of the defect on the information provided by China Status in the telephone conversation [Day 10/136/13-15]. Putting aside the issue of an attending officer misclassifying water leakage as a “major defect” [Day 10/136/9-13], the result was that the FSD was put under the false impression that (1) the shutdown was necessitated by maintenance of the FS water tank (when this had not been assessed by China Status), and (2) that the shutdown and the relevant repair works were being carried out by an RFSIC (when China Status had no involvement), a misconception that influenced the level of enforcement follow-up that was otherwise required of the FSD. N4. Systemic and/or operational weaknesses on the regulatory level

  1. The evidence identifies the following systemic and operational areas requiring

improvement in the FSD’s supervisory role.

  1. First, the SDN mechanism was a notification, not approval, mechanism, and relies

on RFSIC integrity and their timely and accurate / truthful reporting. The regime enforced at the time did not require the FSD to carry out physical inspections of all FSI systems at a premises to detect an inaccurate / false SDN: the on-site risk

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assessment conducted upon receipt of an SDN was directed at formulating an appropriate contingency plan and assessing standby measures, rather than independently verifying the accuracy / truthfulness of the SDN or checking the condition of FSI systems beyond those identified in the notification.

  1. Second, the manual, paper-based FS251 processing system create substantial time

lags that render the document-checking function of limited effectiveness in real time. The 8-to-11-month lag between signing, faxing and inputting of FS251s identified in the evidence demonstrates that the existing system was unable to detect contemporaneous problems.

  1. Third, there was no arrangement for enhanced FSI inspection or surprise checks

specifically triggered by major renovation works [Day 10/72/22 – 73/2], despite the acknowledged reality that buildings under major renovation carry elevated fire risk by reason of the combination of combustible construction materials, partial FSI shutdowns, and continued residential occupation.

  1. Fourth, the standby measures specified in the applicable procedures (fire

extinguishers at alternate floors) are not fully adequate when both the FH/HR System and FAS are simultaneously inoperative. There is currently no equivalent backup measure for FAS failure. AD Keung accepted: “we need to implement other fire safety measures, but you’re right, we cannot really achieve the same effect” [Day 10/93/22 – 94/4].

  1. Fifth, the Code of Practice applicable to WFC’s FAS is the 1979/1982 version.

The 2022 version’s requirement for warning labels on the main power switch (stating “THIS SWITCH ALSO CONTROLS THE SUPPLY TO THE FIRE ALARM SYSTEM”) [B2/919] did not apply to WFC, and no equivalent labelling obligation was imposed under the earlier code. AD Keung accepted that such a

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warning label would “reduce the chance of unqualified personnel turning off the switch” [Day 10/154/10-17].

  1. Following the WFC fire, the FSD has implemented a comprehensive programme

of immediate and medium-to-long-term reforms to enhance the current regulatory arrangements and enforcement.

  1. In terms of immediate measures already implemented: the FSD engaged property

management stakeholders to elevate fire safety awareness; established that FSI should be inspected and repaired before major renovations commence; completed functional tests on FSIs in 461 buildings undergoing major renovation by January 2026 (in coordination with the ICU and BD); established a Quick Response Team to assess FSI operation during fires and test FSI post-operation; and issued FSD Circulars Nos. 1 and 2/2026 mandating prominent notices of FSI shutdowns (A3 size, laminated, at each lift lobby floor), mailbox notifications to residents, clear marking of non-operational installations, and sealing of FSI power switches by RFSICs with green (operational) or red (under repair) tamper-evident seals391 [WS8/1918-1919]. As of 27 May 2026, the Quick Response Team has been deployed 647 times (Table of Improvement Measures, Item A4).

  1. The FSD is also actively promoting the Fire Services Department Building

Emergency Responder training scheme, aiming to train 45,000 property management personnel, OC representatives, and residents within 2026 to help them identify and proactively report FSI abnormalities. As of 27 May 2026, approximately 10,000 property management personnel have been qualified under this scheme (Table of Improvement Measures, Item A7).

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Phase 1 (Operation Outpost), commencing on 19 January 2026, covered 1,500 higher-risk target buildings, with irregularities identified in 267 buildings resulting in 69 prosecutions and FHANs issued against 395 FSIs. Phase 2 commenced in April 2026 with a target to inspect 5,000 buildings within two years. As of 27 May 2026, 272 target buildings have been inspected under Phase 2 (Table of Improvement Measures, Item A6).

Architectural Services Department (“ArchSD”), Housing Department and ICU for large-scale renovation projects: when works commence, the ICU provides a list to the FSD, and the FSD conducts more frequent inspections accordingly. The DFS confirmed: “For the buildings with scaffolding nets, whenever there is any shutdown, we inform the BD or the Housing Department at once. We will not allow any works to continue because of the shutdown of the fire service system. There were five buildings having this situation and we already ordered works to be stopped” [Day 19/70/4 - 71/5].

specifically addressing the WFC scenario. The DFS confirmed: “A contingency plan is also formulated by the operational team. New elements are included, including the configuration and the operation of the fire systems. Having drawn reference from the Wang Fuk Court fire, if buildings nearby have scaffolding nets, in the contingency plan they need to detail how the fire will be handled in the case of any spread” [Day 19/70/23 - 71/5].

the FSD proposes requiring FSD approval for major FSI shutdowns prior to commencement (converting the notification mechanism to an approval-based 286

mechanism), with a 60-day cap and Fire Hazard Abatement Notices for non- compliance. The DFS confirmed: “We want to introduce provisions to mandate approval instead of just notification in relation to any shutdown of the fire service system” [Day 19/72/1-14].

  1. The DFS confirmed in oral evidence the scope and timetable of the proposed

legislative reform. 772.1. On the conversion from notification to approval: “We want to introduce provisions to mandate approval instead of just notification in relation to any shutdown of the fire service system. We will check whether there is any need to shut down the fire service system concerned and we will also see whether any facilities or equipment has been put in place in the interim, that is, replacement measures” [Day 19/72/1-11]. The Government has since proposed legislative amendments to upgrade the regulatory regime of major FSI shutdowns, bringing it up from administrative “post-event notification” to statutory “pre-approval” checks. The Government published a public consultation on the proposed amendments on 26 May 2026 (Table of Improvement Measures, Item A8) [B14/6272]. 772.2. On the 60-day cap: “We want to close the loopholes. If need be, the shutdown notices... the works need to be completed within 60 days. Otherwise, we will issue FHAN” [Day 19/72/12-14]. On the timetable: “In early May, we’re going to conduct consultation at the Legislative Council” [Day 19/72/3-4]. The relevant measures have been introduced in April 2026 (Table of Improvement Measures, Item A8). For shutdowns of major FSIs exceeding 60 days, the FSD will issue FHANs to the owners, requiring completion of repairs by a specified deadline; failure to comply will result in further enforcement action.

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SDN regime from a passive notification system to an active approval and monitoring mechanism.

  1. 1. On electronic FS251 submission: “In the coming two months, we are going

to issue a circular; we are going to ask all fire service contractors to submit the electronic version of FS251. Otherwise, we are going to invoke the existing legislation to handle the case by disciplinary hearing. We want to handle the situation where the submission is late” [Day 19/67/6-16]. That measure has since been implemented. The FSD issued a circular letter on 15 May 2026 notifying contractors of the mandatory submission of FS251 certificates via a designated electronic platform with effect from 1 July 2026 [B14/6257]. The upgraded online submission system was officially launched on 18 May 2026, with mandatory electronic submission commencing on 1 July 2026 (Table of Improvement Measures, Item A9). 774.2. On the penalty regime: “for contractors not submitting certificates or not conducting annual inspections or failure to report any defects, we’re going to increase the level of penalty by five times or even 10 times or even jail” [Day 19/69/1-5]. The proposed enhancement of penalties and criminal accountability for various offences has been included in the legislative amendments proposed by the Government in May 2026 (Table of Improvement Measures, Item A10(iv)) [B14/6285-6287]. 774.3. On RFSIC registration reform: “within three to five years, they have to apply for renewal once. The criteria include whether they have been prosecuted by the FSD or whether they score very high scores, and we consider this basket of factors. So we will not allow underperforming 288

contractors to apply for renewal” [Day 19/69/8-15]. The abovesaid legislative proposals in May 2026 include replacing the permanent registration of RFSICs into a renewal system, made subject to “fit and proper” assessments (Table of Improvement Measures, Item A10(iii)) [B14/6278]. 774.4. On the responsible person system: “the property management companies will be made the party responsible” [Day 19/69/7]. The abovesaid legislative proposals in May 2026 also propose to introduce the FSI “Responsible Persons” regime and to incorporate PMCs into the statutory responsibility chain alongside owners or occupiers (Table of Improvement Measures, Item A10(ii)) [B14/6275].

  1. These proposals, taken together with the fixed penalty regime for identifiable fire-

related offences and broader FSD investigation and enforcement powers, constitute a comprehensive statutory overhaul of the FSI regulatory framework.

  1. The DFS also confirmed that upon receipt of SDNs, the FSD now conducts

proactive checks beyond the system reported as shut down: “Regarding the new practice of SDNs, colleagues need to conduct inspections to check for alternate measures. At the same time, colleagues will also need to check two systems. One, the fire hydrant/hose reel system; and, two, the break-glass unit. That is the power of the BGU as well as the situation of the fire service tank. This practice has already started” [Day 19/73/7-13]. The relevant measures were introduced in April 2026 (Table of Improvement Measures, Item A8). This directly addresses the vulnerability that China Status’s SDNs - which identified only the FH/HR System as being shut down while omitting the FAS - exploited: under the new practice, the FSD independently verifies the condition of FSI systems beyond those reported as defective, eliminating the assumption that FSI systems not

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identified in the SDN remain in working order. RFSICs are also reminded of their responsibility to identify, assess, and report any chain effects that the shutdown of one FSI would have on other FSIs, e.g. if the shutdown of the FH/HR System would lead to the failure of the FAS: the FSD Circular Letter No. 2/2026 dated 8 January 2026 [B14/6249].

  1. A pilot programme testing fire alarms in 1,500 older residential buildings (pre-

1987) has been initiated and extended to 5,000 buildings, with a view to extending to 32,000 buildings territory-wide [Day 19/104/10-12]. As of 27 May 2026, 272 target buildings have been inspected (Table of Improvement Measures, Item A6). Research is also ongoing into temporary fire alarm systems for renovation sites, and the FSD is exploring FSI that can be installed on scaffolding to suppress or extinguish fire [Day 17/47/10-20]. In parallel, the FSD has promoted a voluntary fire alarm testing programme with stakeholders including the PMSA, Hong Kong Association of Property Management Companies Limited (“HKAPMC”), HA, Hong Kong Housing Society (“HS”), Real Estate Developers Association of Hong Kong (“REDA”), and the Association of Registered Fire Service Installation Contractors. Over 100 members of the HKAPMC have expressed support and will actively promote voluntary fire alarm testing in buildings under their management, covering more than 6,000 property projects. The HA has completed voluntary fire alarm testing or regular inspections of FSIs for about 1,300 public rental housing blocks (Table of Improvement Measures, Item A2).

  1. The Government submits that this reform programme directly addresses the

operational weaknesses and areas for improvements identified above. The conversion from notification to approval, electronic submission mandate, PMC Responsible Person System, enhanced penalty regime, and proactive inter- departmental communication channel collectively constitute a fundamental

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improvement of the FSI regulatory framework for buildings undergoing major renovation.

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PART III(E): CONCERNS ON THE FIREFIGHTING AND RESCUE OPERATIONS O. THE GOVERNMENT’S REVIEW OF THE FIREFIGHTING AND RESCUE OPERATIONS

  1. Section H above presents the chronological narrative of the firefighting and

rescue operations as they unfolded from 26 to 28 November 2025. This section constitutes the Government’s review of those operations: an assessment, informed by the evidence before the Committee, of specific aspects of the FSD’s operational response that have been the subject of questioning, criticism or concern during the evidential hearings.

  1. The Government’s primary position is that the firefighting and rescue operations

were conducted professionally, at unprecedented scale, under extraordinary conditions not previously encountered in Hong Kong or, in terms of simultaneous multi-block residential façade fire, anywhere in the comparable developed world. Over 100 persons were rescued; all 347 reported assistance locations and all remaining units were attended; and the operation was sustained over 43 hours with continuous command at the highest level.

  1. The Government also acknowledges candidly that the evidence discloses areas

where operational decisions and systemic arrangements could, with the benefit of hindsight and in light of the unprecedented circumstances that materialised, have been improved. These acknowledged areas for improvements are, in the Government’s submission, by no means individual failures by frontline officers operating under extreme pressure.

  1. Throughout this review, the overarching factual context must be borne in mind:

the firefighters could not prevent the rapid spread of fire and heavy casualties because of the presence of the five key contributing factors addressed above.

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Those factors, for which primary responsibility lies overwhelmingly with private actors, created conditions that no fire service could have fully overcome regardless of the operational decisions taken.

  1. This assessment is borne out by the evidence of the DFS. He stated that it was

“important to recognise the truly unprecedented nature of the Wang Fuk Court fire,” observing that it “involved the full-scale involvement of seven high-rise residential blocks in close succession” in which the buildings’ compartmentation, fire-resisting construction requirements and FSIs were “completely compromis[ed], such that once the fire reached a certain magnitude, it became self-sustaining”392 [WS2/1028]. His assessment was that “there is, at present, no obviously superior or fundamentally different operational approach that fire brigades elsewhere could realistically have adopted to contain such a conflagration effectively under the circumstances” 393 [WS2/1028].

  1. The DFS further observed that “for a fire of this scale and configuration, the

strategic focus should shift from how to extinguish the fully developed blaze to how to prevent its occurrence or limit its development at the very initial stage,” and emphasised that “the underlying causes and contributing factors of the Wang Fuk Court fire span across multiple domains beyond frontline firefighting operations” 394 [WS2/1028-1029]. This assessment is independently corroborated by the Committee’s experts, who concluded that “in practical terms very limited additional action that the FSD could have taken on site to materially alter the outcome” (IC Expert Report §8.1.5 [ER3/2257]). The Government adopts this analysis as the starting point of its submission in this section: the

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firefighting operation was conducted to the best of the FSD’s ability and resources. O1. The tactical consideration to control the fire at each affected building according to the circumstances at the early stage of the fire instead of deploying manpower to carry out evacuation (i) The FSD’s understanding with the Police

  1. The FSD and Police operate under an established understanding for fire incidents:

upon the arrival of police at a fire scene, they assist in evacuating and directing residents to places of safety, while the FSD concentrates on firefighting and rescue. This arrangement was activated from the earliest stage of the WFC fire.

  1. DD Chan confirmed in oral evidence: “according to our usual practice of

collaboration, the police would also help us to evacuate the residents in the neighbourhood and then we would try to fight the fire so that residents would be able to get the time to run out” [Day 18/33/20-24].

  1. This arrangement was put into practical effect. As set out in Section H above,

officers of PTU X4 entered Wang Chi House and Wang Yan House between approximately 16:13 and 16:40 hours on 26 November 2025 to assist in the evacuation of residents from upper floors. Nine residents were successfully evacuated, and the FSD was informed of the evacuation initiatives 395 [WS17/2204-2206].

  1. AD Tang confirmed in the context of the WFC fire: “As the FSD first attending

crews were largely engaged in the firefighting operations and clearance of obstructions at the entrances and exits of various buildings, particularly at Wang Cheong House and Wang Tai House during the initial stage, assistance was

395 CHEUNG Lui 1st WS §§4-7. See also footnote 185 above.

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sought from the Hong Kong Police Force (“HKPF”) personnel to assist in evacuation. To my knowledge, the HKPF personnel had used the Public Address system in police vehicle(s) to urge the evacuation of residents. Evacuees were guided to places of safety on the ground level by the combined efforts of both the FSD and HKPF personnel”396 [WS6/1861].

  1. The IFITF also noted that:
  2. 1. After the fire was raised to No.3 Alarm at 1502 hours, “Concurrently, the

residents from the unaffected blocks were evacuating to the ground level on their own. At 1515 hours, Police set up FCP at scene. In line with usual collaboration, the police took initiative in evacuating residents in the surrounding using vehicle’s public announcement system and loudhailers. Besides, Police Tactical Unit (PTU) entered Wang Chi House and Wang Yan House and successfully evacuated a total of 9 residents.53 FS crews were tasked to activate fire alarms in the three unaffected blocks (i.e. Wang Tao, Wang Sun and Wang Kin House). They discovered that the FAS of the three blocks were inoperative. To buy critical time for residents to evacuate, FSD concentrated most available manpower on fire suppression at Wang Cheong and Wang Tai Houses to slow its progression towards the remaining not yet affected blocks” (IFITF Report, §5.4.3.2 [ER1/65]); 789.2. “By prioritizing immediate fire suppression over other tasks, firefighters bought critical time for residents and maintained viable escape conditions that would have otherwise been compromised by flames spreading from the external scaffolding into the building interiors. This tactical prioritization

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likely delayed the fire spread, providing residents at Wang Sun House more time to evacuate” (IFITF Report, §9.3.2.8 [ER1/198]).

  1. For completeness, the Government notes that the FSD-Police arrangement is

described in the evidence as an established usual practice of collaboration [Day 18/33/13-24; 52/18-25]. (ii) The FSD’s tactical consideration and difficulties in carrying out evacuation

  1. The FSD’s tactical decision at the early stage was to concentrate available

resources on suppressing the fire at Wang Cheong House and Wang Tai House in order to prevent further spread, while relying on the Police to assist with evacuation of residents in less-affected areas. DD Chan explained the two options available to him in oral evidence [Day 18/51/25 - 53/13]: “In fact, at the time there were two options available to us. Given the manpower at the scene and also the scale of the fire, there were two options available to us. One, concentrating the resources to suppress the fire; at Wang Cheong, Wang Tai House, we can spray water at these two blocks. As I said, police already arrived at the scene at 3.30. And then, according to our tacit arrangement, they would try to help the residents to evacuate. That’s the first option. The second option would be to deploy some manpower to Wang Kin, Wang Sun, Wang Tao, Wang Yan or even Wang Shing Houses, to evacuate the residents there. But then, in doing so, the fire might have spread more rapidly and the blaze could become more serious and it could also affect the other blocks more quickly.”

  1. DD Chan acknowledged that with the benefit of hindsight, deploying manpower

to evacuate other blocks earlier was an option he could have taken: “If you look at what you just said, if you look at the number of casualties, my review afterwards was that that’s also an option that I could have taken” [Day 18/53/11-

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13]. The Government presents this candidly as the judgement of a senior commander facing unprecedented conditions. The question of which option would have produced the better outcome is one that even hindsight may not be able to provide a complete answer. The available evidence does not establish that earlier deployment of manpower to evacuation (at the cost of reduced fire suppression at Wang Cheong and Wang Tai Houses) would on balance have reduced overall casualties; the cause of those casualties was the combination of contributing factors that created conditions beyond what any resource allocation could have fully overcome.

  1. Indeed, a difficulty in executing evacuation was the complete failure of the FAS

across seven of eight blocks. DD Chan confirmed: “Given the resources available at the time, apparently there was no other device that would have worked like a fire alarm to effectively alert the residents in the units that there is a fire and you need to escape as soon as possible” [Day 18/49/13 – 50/1]. Without a functioning FAS there was no automated means of alerting residents estate-wide, and no substitute system available that could replicate the FAS’s coverage.

  1. Another difficulty was the blockage of entrances and exits to Wang Cheong

House and Wang Tai House by burning debris, which made forced evacuation of those blocks physically impossible at the initial stage and required firefighters to clear passages before any internal rescue could proceed. Shortly after FS arrival at 1456 hours (IFITF Report §5.2.2.1 [ER1/44]), blockage of entrances and exits to Wang Cheong House was observed by SStnO Hui at 1457 hours (rear exit) and 1505 hours (front entrance) (IFITF Report §10.3.3 [ER1/208]); after the fire was observed to have spread to Wang Tai House at around 1500 hours (IFITF Report §5.2.3.1 [ER1/53]), blockage of entrances and exits to Wang Tai House was observed by SStnO Hui at 1520 hours (front entrance) and 1530 hours (rear exit) (IFITF Report §10.3.3 [ER1/208]). AD Tang confirmed that “most of the

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casualties/deceased were located in Wang Cheong House and Wang Tai House” and that “evacuation was made difficult there because the entrances/exits to those buildings were engulfed in flames and blocked by fallen bamboo sticks and debris at the initial stage”397 [WS1/55-57].

  1. DCFO(NTN) Wong confirmed that the standard SAR protocol (sending one team

to the rooftop and one to the target flat) was not applicable to fully engulfed blocks such as Wang Cheong and Wang Tai Houses. He stated: “The guidelines that I just mentioned was for general fire. But for Wang Cheong/Wang Tai House, the fire engulfed the entire two blocks so we could not invoke the guidelines that I mentioned just now. All we could do was to come up with a plan with the firefighting officers. Because we could not put out the fire, we could not send firefighters there” [Day 11/117/1-22].

  1. There was no established written guideline for the FSD dealing with total FAS

failure across a multi-block estate. SStnO Hui confirmed that there was nothing “clearly written down” directing officers what to do to direct residents to leave in such circumstances [Day 11/23/19-23]. DO Lam similarly confirmed: “No, no such guidelines... if you’re talking about a general order, we don’t have that to teach us step by step what to do when that happens” [Day 11/94/19-24].

  1. Indeed, commenting on the evacuation efforts as a whole, the IFITF also noted

that “While the evacuation process was complex and challenging, it in fact reflected the necessity of adopting an ongoing dynamic assessment when evacuating during a fire due to the rapidly changing circumstances” (IFITF Report, §9.4.3.6 [ER1/202]).

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(iii) Whether sufficient weight had been given to the failure of the fire alarms in deciding not to deploy manpower on evacuation

  1. At the early stage of the fire, crew members were sent to three blocks (Wang Kin

House, Wang Sun House, Wang Tao House) to attempt break-glass activation at approximately 1530; by approximately 1535 to 1540, the estate-wide FAS failure was confirmed, as described in Section H above.

  1. DD Chan confirmed he was aware of the FAS failure before his arrival at 1610.

His evidence was that he considered the EAS unsuitable for this incident because the situation required localised, one-on-one communication with specific residents in the affected buildings, a need that was met by the call-back mechanism (approximately 1,500 phone calls to trapped residents made by the Support Centre) 398 [WS8/1933]. This mechanism made approximately 1,500 call-back calls during the operation, providing ongoing safety advice and updating frontline personnel on the conditions and locations of trapped residents [B13/5720] [B15/6329-6360].

  1. The Government acknowledges that the call-back mechanism necessarily

operated reactively (after residents called the FSD), not proactively (alerting residents who had not yet called). Residents who did not call 999 were not reached by call-backs. This constraint was inherent in the system which was predicated on 999 calls having been made to the FSD first. The reforms to address this inadequacy, including the potential reconfiguration of the EAS for localised use and public education on response, are addressed below (Table of Improvement Measures, Item A12(iv)).

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(iv) Whether there was sufficient attention paid on the horizontal spread of fire from Wang Tai House to other blocks and inward spread of fire from the façade into the building

  1. The fire spread horizontally from Wang Cheong House to Wang Tai House

within approximately 10 minutes, and then to five further blocks within approximately 45 minutes. DD Chan confirmed that this building-to-building spread was “unprecedented” and that he had “never” encountered a comparable situation [Day 18/30/7-22; Day 18/36/14-19]. He further confirmed: “We only knew that it was spreading unusually fast” [Day 18/80/3-4]. The mechanism of spread (flying embers carried by east-to-southeast wind) was not predictable from the initial stage.

  1. ADO Cheung Lok-hang confirmed that the fire’s external origin bypassed the

building’s passive fire safety provisions entirely: “In terms of design, in terms of the fire-resistant compartments, there should have been smoke-free staircase so that the fire would not escalate to such a scale. But for this case, the fire- resistance capabilities of the building was not up to par. Perhaps there were other reasons for why the fire spread so quickly” [Day 11/76/9-15].

  1. The inward spread, being fire penetrating from the external façade into residential

units, was the defining characteristic of this fire and fundamentally different from a standard internal building fire. The IFITF’s findings on this mechanism warrant emphasis. The IFITF observed that: “Our hypothesis posits that the fire predominantly spread into units through openings, such as broken or open windows. However, the test results from Sichuan revealed additional factors contributing to this fire spread. Apart from convective fire spread via broken windows, the radiant heat flux was sufficient to ignite combustibles inside the units. Notably, the time taken for the windows of the re-entrant to be broken by fire coincided with that for the combustibles inside units to be ignited by radiant heat. Even when windows were covered with polystyrene panels, these covers

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could potentially detach under intense heat, allowing radiation to penetrate and ignite materials within. Additionally, the investigation revealed that heat and smoke could also spread through other openings in kitchens and toilets, such as exhaust fans. These findings do not contradict our hypothesis but rather supplement it, revealing additional mechanisms of fire spread that need to be considered” (IFITF Report §8.3.2.1 [ER1/136]).

  1. The Government acknowledges that the unprecedented nature of the horizontal

and inward spread created a tactical challenge for which no established protocol existed. The FSD’s operational review, addressed below, is examining whether the contingency plan framework for renovation site fires should specifically address horizontal spread scenarios and what pre-positioned resources should be available for buildings undergoing large-scale renovation (Table of Improvement Measures, Item A12(iii)). O2. The escalation of fire alarm levels (i) Whether the fire could be escalated to higher fire alarm levels earlier for deployment of further resources to the fire scene

  1. The applicable FSD guideline provides that if the Incident Commander is not

confident the fire can be contained within a short period, the fire “should be upgraded immediately.” The governing principle is essentially: If in doubt, upgrade [B9/4858; Day 11/28/12-22; Day 11/42/9-13]. SStnO Hui confirmed his agreement with this principle.

  1. The critical context should be stated at the outset: the formal alarm level was not

the binding constraint on resource deployment at any stage of the WFC fire. At every stage, actual deployment significantly exceeded the formal alarm level. Officers at their posts could and did request additional resources directly through the FSCC, without in any way being constrained or hampered by the actual alarm

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level. AD Tang confirmed: “each officer at their respective post will know what resources they need and they can make the request directly... Colleagues at their respective posts will do their best instead of being classified in their approach” [Day 19/32/15 - 33/21].

  1. Further, the IFITF also noted that “Given the complexity and challenges of the

fire, the FSD recognized that the strategy could not rely solely on established action plans to address the situation. Instead, the strategy needed to adapt and respond dynamically as the incident evolved”, with “special arrangements…not covered under existing procedures and guidelines” which “helped operational efficiency of frontline Officers” (IFITF Report, §5.4.6.1 [ER1/69] with the relevant special arrangements and their details tabulated thereunder).

  1. As to the No. 1 to No. 3 upgrade: SStnO Hui upgraded the fire six minutes after

his arrival (at 1502 hours). His witness statement confirms the criterion was met at the time: “there was a rapid spread of fire among different façades of Wang Cheong House, and the mid-lower level of east façade of Wang Tai House was well alight. At the time of my arrival, I observed that there were no evacuees from the front entrance of Wang Cheong House. In view of the fire development and potential large number of residents trapped therein, I upgraded the fire to No. 3 Alarm”399 [WS2/990].

  1. SStnO Hui acknowledged in oral evidence that with the benefit of hindsight, he

may have upgraded immediately upon arriving: “If I had known of the consequences, then upon alighting the vehicle, I would have upgraded the fire immediately. The sooner the better” [Day 11/40/21 - 41/2]. The Chairman acknowledged the practical reality of the frontline officer’s position: “You need time to observe the environment before making the decision. You cannot upgrade

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the fire immediately upon alighting the vehicle; right?” to which SStnO Hui agreed [Day 11/42/4-8]. That said, the practical effect of such immediate upgrade may have been modest given that 12 appliances with 61 FS members were already dispatched and additional resources were already automatically triggered by the contingency plan.

  1. By the time of the No. 3 Alarm at 1502 hours, the initial deployment had already

reached approximately 80% of the PDA for a No. 3 Alarm Fire400 [WS1/41].

  1. As to the No. 3 to No. 4 upgrade: DD Chan acknowledged in oral evidence, with

hindsight, that upgrading to No. 4 Alarm earlier would have helped: “But it was quite some time afterwards when it was upgraded to No. 4 alarm. Of course with hindsight we might have asked a bit too much, but now, do you think that it would be a better time to escalate it to a No. 4 alarm earlier?” to which he answered “Yes, looking with hindsight, it would help if it had been upgraded to No. 4 alarm earlier.” When asked whether he would take that into consideration in a future review of guidelines, he confirmed “Yes” [Day 18/59/25 - 60/10].

  1. The Government further invites the Committee to take heed of two

contextualising matters. 812.1. First, by 1534 hours when the No. 4 upgrade occurred, 269 FS members had already been dispatched, approximately twice the PDA for a No. 5 Alarm 401 [WS1/45]. The practical resource gap that an earlier No. 4 upgrade might have addressed was already being filled by other means, including the DCP’s independent deployment of 10 additional SAR teams between 1520 and 1548 hours.

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  1. 2. Second, the above acknowledgements are made with the benefit of

hindsight and in the knowledge of a fire of unprecedented scale; the real- time decision is invariably made in less than ideal circumstances, and particularly so in the present conditions that no officer had previously encountered given the unprecedented nature and extent of the Tai Po fire.

  1. As to the No. 4 to No. 5 upgrade: DD Chan upgraded at 1822 hours. By that time,

cumulative deployment was 6.5 times the No. 5 Alarm PDA (718 FS members deployed against a PDA of 110). DD Chan’s evidence explains that the upgrade was for command-structure purposes rather than resource mobilisation: it was to “provide a clearly defined strategic command for the whole scene and to ensure that firefighting and SAR operations across all sectors were coordinated under a single incident-wide framework”402 [WS8/1930-1931].

  1. Critically, DD Chan had already arrived at the scene at 1610 hours (well before

the No. 5 upgrade) and had immediately begun providing on-site strategic advice, instructions and support to the Incident Commander. By 1635 hours, DD Chan had instructed the implementation of the building-by-building command strategy with eight operation sectors, each under a designated Senior Officer for firefighting and a separate Senior Officer as SAR leader403 [WS8/1923-1925]. The formal No. 5 upgrade at 1822 hours therefore formalised a command structure that was already substantively in place and operational, rather than representing the first point at which strategic-level direction was being exercised.

  1. Overall, the Government submits that the pattern across all three upgrade

decisions is consistent: actual deployment ran well ahead of the formal alarm level at every stage. The alarm level determined the automatic PDA deployment; it did not cap what could be requested on top of that. The Government commits

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to reviewing the alarm escalation guidelines to ensure that they accommodate and duly respond to the particular characteristics of large-scale renovation site fires. (ii) Whether the current fire alarm levels are capable of covering varying features at different fire scenes, e.g. the fire risks arising from large-scale renovation projects

  1. DD Chan confirmed that the contingency plan for WFC already provided

additional resources over the standard PDA at the No. 1 Alarm stage, and that he considered this to be more flexible than a fixed and automatic No. 2 Alarm classification for renovation sites: “Major renovation is temporary, not permanent. In relation to buildings undergoing major renovation, we will not treat it as a No. 2 fire alarm mobilisation at the start. However, we have put in place a contingency plan to add more appliances. This serves the same purpose but it is a temporary arrangement, not a permanent one, that is in the form of a contingency plan. Contingency plan gives us more flexibility because the local fire station can make assessments as to how many appliances should be added when they consider the sites under major renovation. There is more flexibility and it’s more suitable than rigidly setting it as a No. 2 fire to start” [Day 18/61/1- 20].

  1. AD Tang confirmed that the FSD’s post-fire operational review would examine

this question directly: “Every time after there’s a fire we would conduct an operational review and the Wang Fuk Court fire would be no exception. We also had relevant committees to review different aspects of the issue in order to draw experience or draw lessons from the incident so that in terms of our tactics, our strategies, in terms of the coverage and the depth or even the details that we could undertake in putting out the fire would also be studied” [Day 19/30/13-21]. While AD Tang opined that “internal firefighting remains the primary fire suppression

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strategy for building fires”404 [WS6/1873] and confirmed that in the case of Wang Fuk Court, turntable ladders had already been deployed at available strategic positions for external firefighting such that “further reinforcement of turntable ladders, regardless of their operational height, would not have effectively met the operational objectives” 405 [WS6/1873], when asked specifically whether the review would address whether more turntable ladders should arrive earlier for façade fires, AD Tang confirmed this “would be subject to the review” [Day 19/30/10-12].

  1. The Government acknowledges that the contingency plan approach, while more

flexible than a fixed alarm classification, in hindsight requires review given the scale and nature of what materialised at WFC. The FSD is thus conducting an operational review of all aspects of the firefighting response, including whether the contingency plan framework is adequate for façade fires at renovation sites (Table of Improvement Measures, Items A12(i) and (iii)). The Government supports a specific review of whether the current alarm level system should be amended to reflect the particular risks of buildings undergoing large-scale renovation works. O3. The joint-handling of 999 calls by the Police and FSD in the case of fire (i) The discretion on the Police’s side to decide whether to refer a call to the FSD’s side

  1. The 999 hotline is managed by the PCCC. Upon confirmation that a call relates

to fire or rescue, it is immediately transferred to the FSCC. The PCCC establishes a three-way phone conference connecting the caller, FSCC, and PCCC

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simultaneously, allowing the PCCC to continue providing support during the initial stages of the handover406 [WS1/161].

  1. The applicable Police guideline provides that where a caller “states an accident

involving injury has occurred or reports a fire, or requests provision of either an ambulance or fire appliance the caller will be immediately informed that the call will be connected to Ambulance/Fire Control” 407 [WS2/1144-1145]. While waiting for the call to be picked up by the FSD, the Police console operator may ask for further details. DCFO(OP) Wong confirmed this was helpful: “[t]he police has helped us tremendously in a three-party call, the police would not hang up immediately, they would wait and see if our dispatchers have obtained all the information successfully” [Day 12/121/13 - 122/10].

  1. DCFO(OP) Wong acknowledged, however, that in some cases on 26 November

2025, police operators collected information and asked questions before transferring calls to the FSD, which was a deviation from the intended design: “the police has already confirmed the caller’s details before forwarding the call to you and that’s not according the mechanism; is that right?” to which Wong answered “Correct” [Day 12/10/13 - 13/7].

  1. As the Committee may recall, in one documented case (Wang Cheong House,

17/F at 15:06 hours), a caller who stated she was in a fire, on the 17th floor with smoke entering the flat, was not transferred to the FSD. The police operator ended the call after asking if she needed FS assistance and accepting her decision to close windows and stay. DCFO(OP) Wong considered this was not handled correctly: “From my experience, we have never heard of these cases. But in

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relation to this case, I do think that it should not have been handled in this way” [Day 12/47/16 – 48/5].

  1. The Government acknowledges that the deviation between the intended design

(immediate transfer upon confirmation of a fire) and practice on 26 November 2025 (information collected first in some cases, and case(s) of non-transfer) is a joint FSD-Police issue to be addressed. A joint review of 999 call-handling procedures is being conducted. Having said the above, it bears reiteration that isolated deviation(s) from established procedures is not necessarily indicative of any systemic deficiency or failing in those procedures. (ii) The waiting time for some calls to be referred to the FSD

  1. On average, the FSCC answered transferred calls within approximately one

minute (58 seconds) for the rest of the day following the establishment of the Support Centre at 1520 hours. The FSD considers this an adequate response given the circumstances408 [WS1/164]. This figure measures the time from the moment the call was transferred by the Police to the moment it was picked up by the FSD; it does not include any waiting time before transfer. The total elapsed time for a caller from dialling 999 to speaking with the FSD was therefore longer than one minute in some cases.

  1. In one documented instance (Wang Shing House 2802), a longer gap existed

between the 999 call (2122 hours) and the FSD’s first record of the assistance request (2211 hours). DCFO(OP) Wong acknowledged that information transfer relied in part on fax or email: “… the police would still have a mechanism to refer the information to us... They would fax to us in paper copies” [Day 12/30/12-24]. He accepted that “[i]t’s better to have this system simply transfer the data to us.

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But when we developed the system, then there was no such technology” [Day 12/31/11-13].

  1. The Government acknowledges that the information transfer by fax was not

adequate for a large-scale incident involving hundreds of simultaneous calls. FSD will actively work with the Police to refine information exchange mechanisms, enhancing the efficiency of both departments in handling emergency calls (Table of Improvement Measures, Item A12(ii)). (iii) The repetition of requests for information and questions on the FSD’s side

  1. The FSD’s standing practice was to independently verify key information

(address, caller details) received from the Police, because the FSD has in the past made incorrect deployments by relying on unverified information from third parties. DCFO(OP) Wong explained: “This practice is longstanding. It is the result of many years of experience, which gives rise to this mechanism where both parties have to confirm the address of the call. All of the FSD dispatched has a bearing on life or death so we have to confirm the gender and age of the caller. But that’s not the most important thing. The most important things are the telephone number and the address” [Day 12/11/12-21].

  1. The Government maintains the FSD’s rationale for independent verification as

grounded in operational experience and safety. As mentioned by the DFS, the FSD and the Police are co-operating and working on the improvement of existing administrative measures [Day 19/78/22 – 79/3] in the hope that information could be obtained and passed between departments in a more seamless manner (Table of Improvement Measures, Item A12(ii)).

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(iv) The advice given to callers, in particular whether callers should generally be advised to evacuate

  1. The FSD’s safety advice to callers is given on a case-by-case basis. The guiding

principle is avoidance of smoke. Callers are advised to check the corridor before deciding whether to leave or stay. DCFO(OP) Wong explained: “As a matter of guiding principle, callers are advised to avoid smoke, as inhaling smoke can be fatal. In practice, this means the advice given depends on the conditions immediately outside the caller’s unit rather than their specific floor level. If there is heavy smoke outside the unit, the caller will be advised to remain calm inside and seal the door gaps. On the other hand, if the corridor is clear of smoke, the caller will be advised to leave quickly using the nearest smoke-free staircase”409 [WS1/162].

  1. The overriding aim is to ensure safe egress from the fire scene. The FSD does not

specify particular evacuation routes or designate refuge locations within the building, as fire and smoke conditions can change rapidly and vary significantly throughout different sections of the building410 [WS2/1024].

  1. DCFO(OP) Wong acknowledged in oral evidence that the call-back safety script

(Temporary Operational Guideline No. 05/2024, dated 29 November 2024) was intended for call-backs rather than initial calls. For initial calls, operators gave safety advice based on their training and judgment; there was no equivalent written script. Wong stated that safety advice “will not work if we put the requirements in black and white as a rigid rule” because operators must exercise judgement in the diverse circumstances of each caller [Day 12/84/21 - 85/14].

  1. The Government maintains that rigid scripting is not universally appropriate

given the diverse circumstances of callers, and that the principle-based approach

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(avoid smoke; check corridor; leave if clear, stay if not) is sound. The new 4th Generation Mobilising System will again assist with real-time information sharing to support operators in providing more targeted advice. (v) The sharing of information within the FSD on requests for rescue, and the FSD’s recording of information

  1. Information collected from callers requiring FS assistance was disseminated to

frontline personnel through three channels: radio (for immediate operational information); FSD Messenger (screenshot of the Computerised Mobilising System interface sent to commanders’ phones); and printed paper reports at the Mobile Command Unit411 [WS1/62-63; WS1/164-165].

  1. DCFO(OP) Wong confirmed: “Information collected from the callers requiring

FS assistance was immediately disseminated by FSCC to the frontline personnel via chat group set up in the FSD Messenger. All 347 locations reportedly seeking FS assistance were all attended to by the frontline personnel through the combined efforts of all sectors”412 [WS1/164].

  1. The Government acknowledges, however, that the FSD Messenger screenshot

mechanism involved significant manual work: frontline commanders received up to several hundred images in a single group chat, each of which had to be individually opened and read. DCFO(OP) Wong accepted that “the large volume of duplicated calls did cause difficulties to operations, underscoring the importance of effective filtering and streamlining processes in managing high- demand incidents”413 [WS1/165]. He further confirmed: “Currently, when FSCC operators forward assistance requests to frontline personnel, they use an official mobile phone to photograph the information displayed on the Computerized

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Mobilising System screen and then transmit it via the FSD Messenger. This process still involves a significant amount of manual work. The upgraded system, by contrast, will automate these procedures”414 [WS1/166].

  1. The Government acknowledges this as a weakness in the information relay

mechanism and notes that the upgraded system, once commissioned, will automate the transmission of assistance request information to all parties simultaneously, with a view to eliminating the manual steps that characterised the operation on 26 November 2025. (vi) The call-back arrangement

  1. The Support Centre, established at 1520 hours on the DFS’s instruction, made

approximately 1,500 call-back phone calls during the operation to update the conditions and locations of affected residents and to provide ongoing safety advice415 [WS1/51; WS2/1023] [B13/5720] [B15/6329-6360].

  1. The Chairman specifically commended this mechanism at the hearing: “Callback

is quite useful, as proven by this experience. And we had individuals talking to firefighters, count them down. Of course there is room for improvement, but I think there is some good out of it” [Day 12/108/12-16].

  1. The Government respectfully agrees with this assessment. The call-back

mechanism provided personalised, ongoing communication with trapped residents at a point where no estate-wide alerting system was available to provide safety advice. It was an initiative that proved its value under the most demanding circumstances.

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O4. The sufficiency of the FSD’s various communication systems at the fire scene and between the FSD call centre / Director’s Command Post and the fire scene

  1. The FSD’s radio telephone system uses separate talk groups for different

functions; separate fire-ground channels were allocated to the affected buildings; vehicle and portable repeaters were available for long-distance communication; and the Communications Support Team maintained effective radio communication and battery checks throughout416 [WS2/975].

  1. Communication challenges arose from the use of breathing apparatus with full-

face masks. AD Tang explained: “the VoiceCOM has its limitations, as it does not provide a direct link to our handheld radio. During the incident, we observed instances where VoiceCOM messages transmitted via handheld radio lacked clarity, particularly under noisy environment or while speaking amidst hurried breath, even though successful radio connections had been established. The communication can become more challenging when the receiver is also wearing BA with full-face mask, as the receiver’s ears are covered by a protective hood” 417 [WS2/975-976].

  1. This issue has been resolved. The new Interspiro BA system, placed into service

on 19 January 2026, “features a Spirocom system mounted onto each full-face mask (with a microphone inserted into the speech cone and a flexible speaker arm set the desired speaker position against the ear). The Spirocom system is directly connected to the handheld radio of each firefighter to facilitate effective communication” 418 [WS2/976].

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reports were compiled and disseminated to Directorate Officers and the Emergency Monitoring and Support Centre. Livestreaming of drone images to DCP was enabled from 1615 hours by the ICT Division. A Command Support System allowing remote data sharing between the on-site incident scene and DCP was also set up419 [WS2/1019].

features to filter duplicate calls. Once operators enter information into the system, it will be shared simultaneously with all parties involved in the operation, eliminating the need for the manual steps described above420 [WS1/165-166].

video evidence collection platform to allow the public to share footage of fire scenes with the FSD in real time [Day 12/61/20 - 62/25].

to 100 and mitigate the existing capacity constraint. 846.1. The DFS confirmed that the system is currently in testing and training, and acknowledged delays: “Coming back to the development of the 4th generation system, in between we encountered the pandemic and there were also the black riots and the contractors also delayed the delivery of some of the products and supplies and in fact there were some 24 subsystems. We are now in the stage of testing and training, and in between we have also spent a lot of time to urge the contractors to complete their 419 FOK Chun Ming 1st WS §13.4 420 WONG Sze Lut, Sunny 2nd WS §4,.7

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work. I fully agree that the earlier that the system can be commissioned, the better” [Day 19/78/4-13]. 846.2. In relation to the duplication of questions between the Police and FSD during call transfer, the DFS confirmed that “in terms of duplication of questions and also the cutting off of the lines and so on, some of these might have to do with communication problems and we will be working with the police in detail as to how we will be making sure that there would be no need to repeat the questions” [Day 19/78/22 - 79/3]. 846.3. In relation to the new system’s capability to relay information to frontline commanders, the DFS confirmed that “in the new system we have this thing called a portable device or the PD, and every commander will have access to that, so they would be holding this. It’s a handheld device and right away such messages can be transmitted to them” [Day 19/79/24 - 80/2]. 846.4. As to the filtering of duplicate calls by AI, the DFS struck a note of appropriate caution: “we’ve been looking into it. But then we would also have to be careful because for repeated calls, they might be repeating the address or there might be different people reporting the address, and if we haphazardly use AI to screen them out, then the consequence might be... you might have thought that it’s a repeated address or a repeated call, and if you screen that out, then some people who might be needing help might be screened out” [Day 19/80/13-23]. O5. The safety and tracking of firefighters entering the blaze (i) The sufficiency of breathing apparatus and other equipment generally used by firefighters at the fire scene

  1. The MSA 8-litre BA cylinders in service at the time of the fire (in use since May

2014) provide a theoretical working duration of 33 minutes. In a fire of this scale,

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with firefighters carrying BA plus personal protective equipment (approximately 23 kg) plus compact portable pumps (approximately 80 kg) to upper floors, the 33-minute working duration imposed significant operational constraints 421 [WS15/2196-2197; WS2/974-975].

  1. The FSD evaluated alternatives to the 8-litre cylinder and concluded that none

was suitable for high-rise firefighting operations at WFC. The Twin-Cylinder BA (56-minute duration) weighs 20.5 kg and its bulk “would have aggravated physical exertion during high-rise building firefighting operations and accelerated fatigue” 422 [WS15/2197-2198]. The Closed-Circuit BA (3-hour duration) “cannot be exposed to naked flames or high levels of radiant heat, which will shorten its effective air supply” 423 [WS15/2198]. The Airliner (unlimited duration) has an “air hose system highly susceptible to snagging, entanglement, or obstruction when navigating corners and staircases” and “its effective range is limited by its 90-metre hose length, making it impractical for operations on upper floors” 424 [WS15/2198].

  1. The new Interspiro BA system (in service from January 2026) retains 8-litre

cylinders (now slightly lighter at 7.1 kg), and adds a TeamTalk function for communication within the same BA team and an Emergency Breathing Safety System enabling air-sharing between BA team members425 [WS15/2197]. The air-sharing capability directly addresses the scenario where a team member exhausts their supply.

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(ii) The sufficiency of the Firefighter Location System

  1. The FLS deployed at the time of the fire used a single radio frequency. Above

approximately the 23rd floor in a high-rise building, concrete interference prevents the ground-floor receiver from detecting the signal. DO(BA) Tung confirmed: “even if… SFn HO had removed the red magnetic key of the PT and activated it, and the closest team and ECO on G/F had started searching for him, the signal from SFn HO’s PT on 30/F and 31/F of Wang Tai House might not have been received by the HHR on G/F of either Wang Cheong House or Wang Tai House due to the long transmission distance, as well as environmental conditions and anything that might cause interference or reflection of PT signal”426 [WS4/1811].

  1. A new FLS system using dual-frequency signals (including low-frequency for

better concrete penetration) was already in procurement before the WFC fire. DO(BA) Tung confirmed in response to a question from the Chairman: “This is also using radio signals, but it would be using two different signals. It has a high frequency and low frequency. The low frequency signal is good because it can penetrate better... It can also show the distance between me and the one being rescued. It would be useful in this case because it would show the height differential between me and the one being rescued... We tested the new and the old devices on the 23rd floor. The old system cannot receive any signal, not to mention 30th floor. For the new one, it can pick up the signal” [Day 18/15/1 - 16/8].

  1. The Government notes that the new FLS system addresses the constraint that

prevented location of SFn Ho. Its procurement was already underway before the fire, and testing confirms successful signal reception at the 23rd floor.

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(iii) The (lack of) ECP at the early stage of the fire

  1. No ECP was established at Wang Cheong House or Wang Tai House at the initial

stage of the fire. DD Chan explained: “It wasn’t set up yet. Because the place they needed to go to was Wang Cheong House. He was from Shatin LRU, he couldn’t enter Wang Cheong House, so they had to create an access on Wang Cheong House” [Day 18/72/11-15]. When asked whether “things were happening so fast that the entry control procedures were not set up and the colleagues already went in,” DD Chan confirmed: “Correct” [Day 18/72/16-19].

  1. The absence of an ECP at Wang Tai House meant that SFn Ho’s FLS Personal

Transmitter was not activated before his entry, directly affecting the ability to locate him after he issued his Mayday, as described in Section H above.

  1. The Government presents this as a consequence of the speed and chaos of the

initial stage rather than a systemic failure of ECP procedure. In a normal single- building fire, the ECP would be established before entry teams advance. At WFC, multiple entry points were being established simultaneously at different buildings by teams arriving from different stations. The FSD is reviewing ECP procedures to address multi-block fires, including improved block identification mechanisms for officers from other districts [Day 18/72/20-22]. O6. Response to other queries / criticisms raised (i) Coordination among different teams of the FSD at the scene to be enhanced?

  1. The suggestion that there was a lack of coordination among different teams of the

FSD at the scene is not borne out by the evidence. The FSD implemented a building-by-building command strategy with designated Sector Officers for firefighting and separate SAR leaders for each of the eight blocks, under overall direction from the Incident Commander and Rescue Officer. Each building was assigned both a Senior Officer (SDO or DO) responsible for firefighting

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operations and an additional Senior Officer dedicated as SAR leader, ensuring that life-saving efforts were prioritised and coordinated at the tactical level within each sector427 [WS8/1924].

  1. By 2100 hours on 26 November 2025, 22 Senior Officers and Directorate Officers

from both operational and non-operational units were present at the scene, “far beyond the required PDA of attendance for a No. 5 Alarm Fire, which normally required only a single-digit number of Senior/Directorate Officers”428 [WS1/51].

  1. The coordination framework extended beyond the sector structure. The DCP

provided continuous backend support from 1520 hours, compiling hourly situation reports disseminated to all Directorate Officers and the Emergency Monitoring and Support Centre429 [WS2/1019]. Livestreaming of drone images to the DCP was enabled from 1615 hours, and a Command Support System allowed remote data sharing between the on-site incident scene and the DCP430 [WS2/1019]. At the fire scene itself, the MCU served as the central coordination and briefing point: all arriving appliance teams were required to report to the MCU for briefing before deployment, at which point they received instructions on block identification, sector assignment, and operational priorities [Day 19/31/12-25].

  1. Officers from other districts, unfamiliar with WFC’s layout, might have faced

difficulty in identifying individual blocks. The difficulty might have been compounded by the fact that the blocks were enveloped in scaffolding nets, making visual identification of individual buildings more difficult from the outside, and that some officers might have arrived and entered the blocks before

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the MCU briefing system could assist them, given the extraordinary speed of the fire’s development.

  1. However, this was addressed through briefings at the MCU and the provision of

GIS maps and layout plans. AD Tang confirmed: “During the time when I was the incident commander, the person in charge of appliances at the scene had to go to the MCU for briefing. If the appliance team had arrived, if they were not familiar with the layout and position of the individual buildings, we would give them instructions. There is the geographical information system and various information on the MCU” [Day 19/31/12-25]. In addition to briefings at the MCU, AD Tang further confirmed that there were other means by which instructions were made available to frontline officers: “There is the MDT, the mobile data terminal, with information of the layout of the blocks. I don’t think that this creates serious obstacles to the colleagues working at the scene. You follow the access in the inner court, you find BA main control, you have another team, there is the forward command post. So they would obviously see the different posts or points in addition to the reserve areas. So these people manning these points will know the locations of individual blocks” [Day 19/31/22-25 – 32/1-9].

  1. The Government submits that the command structure established at WFC was

comprehensive and unprecedented in scale. The coordination arrangements, encompassing the eight-sector building-by-building strategy, the dual firefighting and SAR leadership at each sector, the DCP backend support, the MCU briefing process, and the presence of senior and directorate officers, collectively demonstrate a structured and effective command architecture. (ii) The bamboo scaffolds should be dismantled first?

  1. Complete dismantling of the burning scaffolding was operationally unfeasible

and counterproductive. DCFO(OP) Wong explained that dismantling would have

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required extensive manpower diverted from rescue; would have “exponentially increased the risk of falling debris, striking both firefighters and evacuating residents on the ground level and rekindling fires in the vicinity that had already been subdued or put out”; and the “massive structure, once dismantled, would have been reduced to nothing but a voluminous pile of burning bamboo sticks and scaffolding nets left on the ground, thereby causing further blockage to the vital entrances of the buildings from which they were torn”431 [WS1/80-81].

  1. The FSD’s paramount objective was “securing immediate interior access for

firefighting and victim rescue. Saving lives is always the first priority; however, this must occur alongside firefighting efforts, as effective fire suppression is essential to ensure the successful implementation of rescue procedures. In permissive environments, the tactical decision therefore focused on clearing only essential pathways at building entrances rather than attempting comprehensive scaffolding removal” 432 [WS1/81]. (iii) The EAS should be invoked?

  1. The EAS was considered but not used. DD Chan explained his reasoning: “The

EAS is a public dissemination system for time-critical messages via mobile networks. Activation criteria include territory-wide emergencies such as massive infrastructure breakdowns, large-scale riots or bomb disposals, rather than localised incidents. I considered the EAS unsuitable for this incident because, at the material time, this situation required localised, one-on-one communication with specific residents in the affected buildings rather than broadcast to the general public due to the unpredictability of the dynamic fire development”433 [WS8/1933].

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confined EAS use to territory-wide emergency matters.

a conscious choice: “From what we’ve heard from you, it was a conscious decision not to use it, it’s not that the system had been forgotten” to which he answered “That’s right” [Day 18/68/4-8]. When asked whether, looking back, it was not a wise decision, he reiterated the operational reasoning: “It’s not just about that. As I said, we would not know how the residents would react having received the alert. We all know about the conditions of the blocks. If residents tried to escape, they might be put in greater danger” [Day 18/66/4-9]. He confirmed that in future, “if the system is used, we will need to first look at the messages to be sent and put in place relevant public education” Day 18/67/16 - 18).

the FAS failure (Section N above) and the blockage of entrances and exits by burning debris, not the non-use of the EAS. The possibility of using the EAS is a possible area of improvement which merits the Government’s attention: the system was (at the time) not configured for localised use and there had been no public education on how to respond to an EAS alert. The Government has since initiated work to configure the EAS for localised use and to design a public education campaign (Table of Improvement Measures, Item A12(iv)). DD Chan confirmed: “Afterwards, the Government consider improving the EAS for the use of various government departments. Information from the public domain said that the system can be configured to be issued to a localised area” [Day 18/67/3-8]. 322

(iv) Helicopters and other advanced technologies such as drones should be used in the firefighting operation?

  1. Helicopters were not deployed for water bombing. DCFO(OP) Wong explained

the technical reasons: water dropped from height “would not be able to penetrate into the interior of the building where the fire was located. Instead, it would largely fall on exterior façades or rooftops, and would therefore have little or no direct effect on controlling fires within residential units”434 [WS1/73]. Helicopter downwash “can force smoke into buildings, thereby increasing the risk to occupants who are trapped inside. It may also drive additional air into the structure, potentially intensifying the fire” 435 [WS1/73]. A helicopter water bomb carrying up to one tonne of water “when released from height, can damage temporary structures such as bamboo scaffolding and wash debris to ground level, creating additional hazards” 436 [WS1/73].

  1. DCFO(NTN) Wong King-man also identified the steam risk from applying

external water jets into residential units where residents might be trapped: “When we apply water jet from the external environment, the control is at the bottom of the vehicle. We would not know about the conditions at the block or the interior environment... there is risk arising from applying water jet from the outside into the units of the blocks because if there are firefighters inside the building, they could be injured. They could sustain fire injury” [Day 11/122/4-22].

  1. One hundred-metre aerial ladder platforms were not deployed because they

require a 10-metre wide deployment footprint (wider than any EVA in Hong Kong), weigh more than 60 tonnes (exceeding the 30-tonne load-bearing capacity of Hong Kong EVAs), and even if deployed, the sole viable location (Tai Po Road, 46 metres from Wang Sun House) would have meant the rescue cage could not

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reach the building façade437 [WS1/66-69]. AD Tang concluded: “given turntable ladders had already been deployed at available strategic positions for external firefighting around Wang Fuk Court and the EVA near the buildings became inaccessible due to fallen burning scaffolding materials and debris, further reinforcement of turntable ladders, regardless of their operational height, would not have effectively met the operational objectives. More turntable ladders would not be able to get close enough to the buildings”438 [WS6/1873].

  1. As to firefighting drones: DCFO(OP) Wong confirmed that according to

information from the National Fire and Rescue Administration, “no firefighting drones are currently in operational use by Chinese Mainland fire departments, and using drones for firefighting is still at the research and development stage... Based on available information, there are currently no known fire departments that have utilized drones for direct fire suppression in actual fire incidents”439 [WS1/69]. In oral evidence he stated: “Frankly speaking, there are a lot of online videos showing that there are fire drones in use. Those are only videos produced by the manufacturers. They have gone through major editing. I won’t say they are completely useless, but in our actual firefighting operations, so far they are not mature enough to be deployed” [Day 12/110/12 - 112/7].

  1. However, drones were effectively deployed for other purposes. Ten FSD drones

equipped with live-streaming and thermal imaging capabilities were used for aerial surveillance, identifying two trapped persons on a rooftop, monitoring for reignition, and providing supplementary illumination at night. An additional 10 drones were borrowed from Guangdong Province. AD Tang recorded: “the UAS team identified the locations of the two persons trapped on a building rooftop who were out of sight from the ground crews. By continuously monitoring the

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situation via the drones, our rescue team identified a safe window of opportunity to reach them and successfully led both individuals to safety”440 [WS6/1864] [B17/6398]. The drone-assisted rooftop rescue is a concrete example of effective technology use during the fire. (v) Additional support from the Chinese Mainland should be sought?

  1. The decision not to accept additional firefighting manpower from Guangdong

Province was based on scene capacity constraints and operational incompatibilities. DD Chan assessed that additional resources were not required because the FSD had “already despatched over 220 FS appliances and 980 personnel to the scene, a deployment that exceeded the standard PDA for a No. 5 Alarm by approximately nine times” 441 [WS8/1931-1932] and that “due to the buildings’ structural limitations, including narrow staircases and restricted corridor space, as well as extreme heat conditions requiring a floor-by-floor advancement, there was a practical limit to the number of personnel who could be effectively and safely deployed at any one time”442 [WS8/1931-1932].

  1. DCFO(OP) Wong identified specific operational incompatibilities in BA

procedures, Mayday procedures, evacuation signals, hydrant coupling systems and portable pump designs. In his evidence, he illustrated these with a vivid example: “The terminology for issuing a Mayday message differs fundamentally between the Chinese Mainland and Hong Kong. Hong Kong firefighters follow local protocol by calling ‘Mayday, Mayday, Mayday’ in English to initiate their distress signal, while Chinese Mainland firefighters use ‘呼救、呼救、呼救’ in Putonghua. This linguistic divide means that when a Chinese Mainland firefighter trapped in a collapsed structure broadcasts his distress call in

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Putonghua, Hong Kong personnel may not immediately recognize it as an emergency signal”443 [WS1/75-76]. He further explained that evacuation horn blasts differ between the two jurisdictions: Hong Kong uses long blasts while the Mainland uses intermittent blasts, creating a life-critical risk of misunderstanding [Day 12/124/12 - 126/16].

  1. Cross-boundary equipment support was, however, accepted: ten UAS with

optical and thermal imaging and 20 sets of exoskeleton equipment were borrowed from Guangdong Province to support operations444 [WS2/1020; WS1/79].

  1. The distinction between declining personnel (operationally incompatible) and

accepting equipment (interoperable) reflects a professional safety assessment, not a political decision. The Guangdong-Hong Kong-Macao Emergency Management Cooperation Framework Agreement’s current phase focuses on natural disaster scenarios; work is underway to extend it to cover large-scale building fires. DCFO(OP) Wong confirmed: “the FSD will engage with its counterparts in Guangdong and Macao to explore the feasibility of expediting to operationalize mutual assistance arrangements for large-scale building fires”445 [WS1/79]. O7. Review (i) Improvements already introduced

  1. The following improvements had already been implemented by the time of the

evidential hearings:

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  1. 1. The new Interspiro BA system with Spirocom radio connectivity was

placed into service on 19 January 2026, resolving the communication limitation identified during the fire446 [WS2/976]. 877.2. A new referral mechanism has been established: for any fire safety enquiry or complaint, the FSD now proactively refers to the relevant department with the caller’s consent and follows up to confirm receipt Day 17/48/21

  1. 3. The DFS has also established a “Mega-scale Fire Incidents Strategic

Steering Committee” (Table of Improvement Measures, A12(i)). His second witness statement records that the Committee is “led by the Deputy Director (Operations), to conduct a comprehensive review of existing firefighting and rescue strategies, protocols and equipment for incidents of mega-scale and nature” and will “undertake a thorough examination of current operational strategies, drawing on the experience and good practices of Chinese Mainland and overseas counterparts, with a view to enhancing rapid response, command and deployment, firefighting and rescue tactics and evacuation effectiveness under large-scale and complex fireground conditions”447 [WS2/1029]. During oral evidence in specific response to Member Chan, the DFS confirmed that the Committee’s work encompasses “the command structure and also the firefighting strategies and tactics and so on, how we can make use of technology and equipment to fight fires and so on, that would be a continuous process to enhance our capabilities” [Day 19/106/6-14].

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(ii) Improvements to be introduced, and further studies to be conducted

  1. Beyond the immediate measures already in effect, the FSD has identified a series

of medium-to-long-term improvements to be introduced across four areas: technology and systems, equipment, inter-agency coordination, and operational guidelines.

  1. In terms of technology and communication systems:
  2. 1. The 4th Generation Mobilising System will increase the number of

incoming lines to 100 and automate information relay, eliminating the manual screenshot process that characterised the 26 November operation. Once operators enter information into the system, it will be shared simultaneously with all parties involved in the operation. The DFS confirmed that the system is currently in testing and training and that “the earlier that the system can be commissioned, the better” [Day 19/78/4-13]. Complementing the FSCC upgrade, the FSD is developing SMS location sharing for callers (enabling callers to share their GPS position via a link sent to their mobile phone) and a video evidence collection platform to allow the public to share footage of fire scenes with the FSD in real time [Day 12/61/20 - 62/25]. 879.2. The EAS is also being reconfigured for localised use so that alerts can be issued to a specific geographic area rather than territory-wide, and a public education campaign on how to respond to an EAS alert is being designed Day 18/67/3-8).

  1. In terms of equipment, a new FLS with dual-frequency signals (including low-

frequency for better concrete penetration) and a height differential display is in procurement. Testing confirms successful signal reception at the 23rd floor,

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directly addressing the limitation that prevented location of SFn Ho during the WFC fire [Day 18/15/1 - 16/8]. An electronic entry control clipboard is also being introduced to replace the paper BA log system, eliminating manual recording errors and ensuring automatic logging of firefighter entry and exit times [Day 18/24/10-18].

  1. In terms of inter-agency coordination, the cross-boundary cooperation framework

with Guangdong and Macao is being expedited to cover large-scale building fires. The current framework focuses on natural disaster scenarios; the FSD will engage with its counterparts in both jurisdictions “to explore the feasibility of expediting to operationalize mutual assistance arrangements for large-scale building fires”448 [WS1/79]. By way of example, a 3-day Guangdong-Hong Kong-Macao Greater Bay Area emergency response and rescue exercise took place in Macao from 20 to 22 May 2026 [B14/6263]. A joint review with the Police on 999 call- handling procedures is also being conducted, encompassing the elimination of duplicated questions Day 19/78/22 - 79/3).

  1. In terms of operational guidelines and research, guidelines are to be developed

for multi-block FAS failure scenarios (a situation for which no written guidance existed before the fire), and new ECP establishment protocols for multi-block fires are being formulated. Ongoing research is being conducted into temporary fire alarm systems for renovation sites and FSIs that can be installed on scaffolding to suppress or extinguish fire at an early stage [Day 17/47/10-25].

  1. The Government submits that this programme of reform, encompassing

immediate operational changes already in effect, medium-term legislative amendments before the legislature, and longer-term technology and research

448 WONG Sze Lut, Sunny 1st WS §12

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initiatives, represents a comprehensive and considered response to the operational challenges revealed by the WFC fire. The reforms are systemic in nature, addressing the structural inadequacies identified in this review rather than simply augmenting resources within the existing framework.

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PART III(F): SYSTEMIC ISSUES P. ABUSE OF THE SYSTEM BY PROFESSIONALS AND OTHER NON-GOVERNMENTAL PARTIES

  1. Before turning to the Government’s acknowledged systemic issues, it is necessary

to set out comprehensively the primary responsibilities of each private actor whose conduct directly caused the fire, its rapid spread and the heavy casualties.

  1. The evidence addressed in Sections I to N above, taken together, establishes that

the fire at WFC was not the product of a single act of negligence or a single regulatory weakness.

  1. It was the product of sustained, multi-faceted wrongdoings with deceit by

multiple private actors operating over a period of months, in circumstances where every actor bearing primary responsibility either actively participated in the creation of hazardous conditions or was grossly negligent in circumstances amounting to a complete abdication of professional duty. Worse still, it is evident that such wrongdoings specifically sought to circumvent and/or undermine the existing structural frameworks in place, thereby seriously hampering and undermining the Government’s supervisory function.

  1. As the evidence under ToR 2 further reveals (addressed in Part IV below), the

conduct observed at WFC was not an isolated aberration but reflects sector-wide patterns of non-compliance, collusion and exploitation of the self-regulatory model that have persisted in the building maintenance industry over a prolonged period (cf. paragraphs 929-930 below).

  1. This Part addresses each culpable party in turn, drawing together the threads of

their conduct across the contributing factors to demonstrate the cumulative weight of private-actor failure.

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P1. Prestige

  1. Prestige was the main contractor engaged for the WFC renovation works at a

contract price of approximately HK$336 million. It bore the primary statutory duty under the BO, FIUO, and OSHO to ensure the safety of the works, compliance of materials, and maintenance of safe systems of work. Its conduct in relation to each of the five contributing factors demonstrates a systematic pattern of non-compliance, concealment and disregard for the safety of the residents whose homes surrounded its works.

  1. As to the start of the fire: Prestige bore primary responsibility for site

management and carrying out of the works, including the enforcement of no- smoking rules, clearance of construction debris, and maintenance of a safe working environment.

  1. Despite repeated complaints from residents, documented observations by the

PMC, reminders at renovation works meetings, and warnings issued by the LD, Prestige failed to enforce an effective no-smoking regime. Prestige also failed to ensure frequent clearance of combustible construction waste from the flat roof at the point of origin, where debris had accumulated. The combination of uncontrolled smoking and accumulated combustible waste in a confined space created the conditions in which a discarded cigarette could ignite materials and start a fire.

  1. As to the use of scaffolding nets uncertified for FR properties: Prestige

deliberately supplied and used, and directed the purchase and use, of scaffolding nets uncertified for FR properties, i.e. scaffolding nets that are not certified for satisfying any of the FR standards as required by the BD’s circular letters, LD’s Code of Practice, and B(C)R. When asked to produce a test certificate, Prestige furnished a document that was subsequently found to be unreliable. The evidence

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further indicates that Prestige engaged in selective replacement of scaffolding nets in areas likely to be inspected. If such findings are made by the Committee, Prestige’s act would be deliberate and calculated deception directed at the regulatory body exercising supervisory authority over the works.

  1. As to the extensive use of foam boards: Prestige used combustible polyvinyl

chloride foam boards to cover windows across multiple blocks for a period exceeding one year. When the ICU raised the fire hazard concern at the 28 October 2024 site inspection, Prestige’s representative expressly represented that the foam boards would be used only temporarily during active hacking works (three floors at a time) and that non-combustible materials would be used for such temporary protection. This representation was false. The foam boards remained in place across the estate, obstructing residents’ awareness of the fire, delaying their evacuation response, and contributing to the vertical spread of fire and generation of toxic gases that caused the deaths of individuals by carbon monoxide inhalation.

  1. As to the creation of access openings at escape staircases: Prestige created and

directed the creation of access openings resulting in the removal of windows and replacement with movable wooden boards or aluminium composite panels at regular five-floor intervals across all eight blocks. These openings permitted smoke and heat to infiltrate the protected staircases during the fire, rendering them incapable of providing a safe environment for evacuation. Of the 38 fatalities in the staircases and common areas of Wang Tai House, 28 were found inside the staircase; the cause of death for all 28 was inhalation of fire fumes attributable to the compromised openings. The full-scale fire tests confirmed that the wooden boards ignited within minutes, whereas the fire-rated glass windows they replaced remained intact and maintained a lower interior temperature.

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Tanks as part of the renovation works which resulted in ISS (a non-RFSIC) physically switching off the main power switch in the booster pump rooms of all eight blocks, an act that simultaneously deactivated both the FH/HR System and FAS. Prestige arranged this despite the fact that the drainage of the FS Water Tanks did not require the main power switch to be turned off at all; the technically necessary steps were to switch off the upfeed pump and open the rooftop drain valve. Prestige engaged China Status to submit SDNs to the FSD, informed China Status that the building management company would “handle the physical shutting down,” and at no point ensured that an RFSIC was present to oversee the operation of FSIs. The consequence was that 168 people lived without a functioning fire alarm for months, and when the fire broke out, no warning sounded.

compliance. P2. Will Power (consultant purportedly providing RI services) and Ng Yeuk (the RI)

project (including the provision of Registered Inspector services) under the MBIS. The RI bears specific statutory responsibilities under section 30D of the BO: to provide proper supervision of the carrying out of prescribed repair works; to ensure that repair materials are not defective and comply with all relevant Ordinances, Regulations, codes of practice and practice notes; and to ensure that the building is safe or has been rendered safe. 334

any effective discharge, of these statutory responsibilities by the RI in relation to any of the five contributing factors.

scaffolding nets installed by Prestige, despite the existence of clear requirements in the BD’s circular letters and LD’s Code of Practice.

prolonged use of foam boards to cover windows, despite the obvious departure from the representation made to the ICU that they would be used only temporarily and in a localised manner.

escape staircases as a contravention of the BO, despite the MBIS Code’s specific requirement to identify and report “unprotected openings at enclosure walls of exit routes.”

requires the RI to certify, upon completion, that works have been carried out in compliance with the BO. The supervision plans submitted under the MWCS for the window replacement works stated that the PBPs would conduct weekly inspections. The totality of the evidence suggests that these representations to the regulatory authority were not matched by any substantive supervisory activity on the ground.

certain RIs in the building maintenance sector function as “mere dummies” who exercise “little or no supervision over the project” and are “only appointed to satisfy the statutory requirements imposed under the BO.” Whether or not that 335

characterisation applies to Will Power’s/the RI’s conduct at WFC is a matter for the Committee’s assessment; what the evidence does establish is that the RI’s statutory obligations were clearly not discharged. P3. China Status

  1. China Status was engaged by Prestige to submit SDNs and FS251 certificates to

the FSD in connection with the FS Water Tank repair works. The evidence establishes that China Status performed no substantive function beyond the administrative act of completing and submitting forms – which completely defeats the purpose of its appointment and serves to make a complete mockery of the system in place.

  1. China Status never visited the site. Its director admitted that no representative

attended WFC “for the purposes of understanding first-hand the FH/HR System in place, the relevant renovation works proposed to be conducted there, the necessity of shutting down the FH/HR System for such renovation works, or the feasibility of putting in place additional fire services measures while the FH/HR System is shut down.” When asked whether China Status was “just a rubberstamp,” the DFS answered: “Yes.”

  1. China Status submitted SDNs that consistently identified only the FH/HR System

as the subject of shutdown, leaving the FAS box blank. Because China Status never visited the site, never assessed the need and consequences for the shutdown of the FH/HR Systems, and never effected the shutdown of the relevant FSI themselves, it never knew and never realised that the FAS had also been deactivated. The FSD therefore received no notification that the FAS across all eight blocks were inoperative. Had the FSD been notified, it would have updated the contingency plan, required the owner to notify residents, and demanded

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implementation of standby measures. None of this occurred because China Status’s representations to the FSD were incomplete and misleading.

  1. China Status’ director admitted that he “breached all of his obligations” shown

to him in the FSD’s Circular Letter No. 1/2021. He admitted he did not exercise his discipline in considering whether his acts breached the requirements. The FSD’s assessment was that China Status “not only failed the expectation of the public, but also breached the FSD’s trust” by falsely representing to the FSD that the shutdown of the FH/HR Systems was due to repairs needed as a result of leakage of the FS Water Tank and that it was the responsible RFSIC carrying out the relevant repair works based on the defect(s) as detected.

  1. Had China Status discharged its obligation to supervise the works and critically

review the need for each extension, it would have noted the completion of the FS Water Tank repair works at certain blocks well before the fire. In the case of Wang Tai House, the works were completed by the end of October 2025; had China Status been aware of this, the filing of the last SDN dated 13 November 2025 would not have been necessary and the FH/HR System should have been resumed to normal operation. The same applies to other blocks where repair works were completed in September to November 2025. China Status’s failure to inquire into the progress of the works, or to attend the site at any point, meant that SDN extensions continued to be filed mechanically for works that had already been completed, prolonging the shutdown of the FSI beyond any legitimate need and maintaining a state of heightened fire risk for residents who had no knowledge that their FSIs remained inoperative. P4. Victory Fire

  1. Victory Fire was the long-standing RFSIC engaged by ISS for annual inspections

and rectification works at WFC. It had held this role for approximately nine

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consecutive years. In October and November 2025, Victory Fire’s staff discovered, first, that the FS Water Tanks in all eight blocks were empty (16 October 2025) and, second, that the main power switches controlling the power of both the FH/HR System and FAS of all eight blocks had been switched off (19 November 2025) when they were doing repair works on the very FH/HR Systems and FAS at WFC respectively. The second discovery meant that Victory Fire’s staff had direct knowledge that the FAS in all eight blocks were de-energised.

  1. Victory Fire failed to make any attempt to notify the FSD of this discovery. The

FSD’s Circular Letter No. 1/2021 expressly requires an RFSIC who discovers a defect involving one of 9 major FSIs (FH/HR systems and FAS included) to submit an SDN to the FSD. Victory Fire’s director conceded that this obligation existed; he sought to shelter behind the presence of China Status’s SDN for the FH/HR System, but that SDN did not cover the FAS.

  1. Victory Fire completed its rectification works and left the site at approximately

1:00 pm on 26 November 2025 without testing the FSIs it was engaged to rectify, without issuing an FS251 for the FSIs, and without notifying the FSD of the shutdown of the SDN, let alone the empty water tank, even though it discovered during the course of its works that the shutdown had lasted more than 24 hours. Less than two hours later, the fire broke out. P5. ISS (the PMC)

  1. ISS occupied a central position in the management of the estate, with contractual

responsibilities that placed it at the intersection between the residents, IO, and various contractors engaged for the renovation works. The PMSA Code of Conduct specifically requires licensed PMCs to monitor the progress of the RFSIC’s work, follow up timely with the RFSIC on required rectifications, follow

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up timely with the RFSIC that it has notified the DFS of FSI shutdowns, and assist FSD officers during visits.

  1. ISS failed in these obligations in several critical respects.
  2. First, ISS issued job orders directing its own unlicensed electrician to physically

operate FSIs, an act that was categorised by AD Keung as “against the law” and “something that one must never do.” ISS management did not enquire whether an RFSIC should be engaged for this work; its property officer accepted it “did not occur” to her that the drainage of the FS Water Tank should be done by a RFSIC rather than the property company.

  1. Second, ISS failed to coordinate between two simultaneously engaged RFSICs

(Victory Fire and China Status). When Victory Fire’s electricians discovered the FS Water Tanks were empty on 16 October 2025 and that the main power switches had been turned off on 19 November 2025, ISS’s property officer told them that an SDN had been submitted and temporary measures were in place, but did not show them the SDN, did not suggest coordination between the two contractors, and did not inform Victory Fire that the FAS had been deactivated. She confirmed that “it didn’t cross anyone’s mind that that needed to be done.”

  1. Third, ISS’s response to persistent fire safety complaints from residents was

limited to relaying them to Prestige without follow-up. Despite contractual obligations to “record, investigate and liaise and follow up on the matter with the relevant government department,” ISS’s actual practice was, as its own security guard confirmed, to play the role of “passing on the message.” ISS neither escalated unresolved complaints nor took independent steps to verify whether Prestige had remedied the hazards.

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registration or documentation, with the consequence that the FSI shutdown occurred without any contemporaneous record. ISS’s property officer accepted that had proper procedures been followed, “there should have been a form stating that there was a drainage, working permits were issued and the entry of whether the fire alarm system would be affected would be filled in.” P6. Residents as victims of the cumulative effect of private-actor failure

and to provide RI services (noting that the residents were never asked to directly engage the RI who must be an individual), and to appoint Prestige as the main contractor, through owners’ meetings at which the decisions were approved by majority vote.

later prove to have been well-founded. Complaints were made repeatedly and to multiple departments regarding fire safety, smoking, materials, and proxy irregularities. In this context, the residents and those IO/MC members who raised concerns can be properly characterised as persons adversely affected by the misconduct rather than contributors to it. The responsibility for the decisions that led to the engagement of Prestige and Will Power lies with those who manipulated the decision-making process, not with the owners who were similarly deceived.

emerges is one of a complete and simultaneous failure of every layer of private- actor responsibility. Each contributing factor to the fire, its spread and the heavy casualties traces directly to the acts and omissions of these private actors. 340

assumption that professionals would exercise a degree of integrity commensurate with the trust reposed in them and obligations imposed upon them by law. At WFC, that assumption was not borne out. It is against this background, and with this understanding of where primary responsibility lies, that the Government turns to address the systemic issues within its own supervisory framework. 341

Q. SYSTEMIC ISSUES ACROSS KEY CONTRIBUTING FACTORS

  1. This Part examines the systemic issues within the Government’s regulatory and

supervisory framework that cut across the contributing factors addressed above.

  1. These issues are distinct from the direct causes of the fire (which are addressed

in Sections I to N and the primary responsibilities summarised in Part P); they concern structural, procedural and operational characteristics of the Government’s own systems that permitted the private actors’ wrongdoings to go undetected before the incident.

  1. It is important to place these systemic issues in their proper historical context.

The regulatory frameworks involved include those which began in the 1960s and in 1992 well before the first term of the HKSAR Government and developed over all six terms of HKSAR Government. They had also been subject to the scrutiny of HKSAR’s legislature over the years, and were not hastily or carelessly constructed. 924.1. The delegation arrangement between the BD and ICU dates from 1992 and has been renewed and refined over more than three decades. 924.2. The FSI regulatory framework under the FSO has been developed incrementally since the 1960s, with the SDN mechanism formalised in 2021. 924.3. The MWCS was introduced in 2010 with the deliberate policy objective of simplifying procedures for lower-risk works while preserving professional accountability in response to calls for streamlined regulatory procedures. 924.4. The MBIS was introduced in 2012 following extensive consultation and Legislative Council scrutiny.

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considered to be the appropriate balance between regulatory oversight and professional self-governance. The systemic issues identified below are therefore not novel discoveries arising solely from the WFC fire. The question for the Committee is not whether these characteristics were unreasonable when adopted, but whether they remain adequate going forward, in light of what the evidence has revealed about the vulnerability of the system to organised and deliberate subversion.

professional self-regulation in the MBIS and MWCS was the product of a deliberate policy balancing exercise. The legislative history demonstrates that these frameworks were developed in response to sustained calls from building owners, the industry and the legislature to streamline regulatory procedures, reduce compliance costs, and avoid imposing disproportionate requirements on works of lower risk. As the Chairman observed in the context of the post-Grenfell reforms in the United Kingdom, the imposition of very strict requirements “imposes a lot of hardship on the developers and as a result a lot of developers cannot finish the projects” [Day 27/76/4-6]. The trust placed in registered professionals was thus the mechanism through which the legislature’s endorsed balance was struck: professionals would bear primary responsibility for planning, supervision and compliance, and the Government would exercise oversight through audit checks, complaint-driven responses and disciplinary mechanisms.

ToR 2 (addressed in Part IV below) demonstrates that the systemic vulnerabilities in the building maintenance sector (including bid-rigging, the misuse of the RI role, and the exploitation of the self-regulatory model) are not 343

recent developments but have persisted over a prolonged period, notwithstanding the progressive efforts of the relevant enforcement agencies. Q1. Reliance on the self-regulation of professionals, and sufficiency of audit checks and site inspections

  1. The pre-fire regulatory framework for building maintenance and renovation

relied heavily on the self-regulation of registered professionals and contractors for its implementation. The Government’s role is exercised through inter alia audit checking of submissions and in response to complaints.

  1. The system was designed to detect non-compliance on a statistical sampling basis,

not to provide continuous oversight of individual projects. Where a contractor and RI were actively collaborating to conceal non-compliance (as the evidence indicates was the case at WFC), the probability of detection through random audit alone was low. This was compounded by the absence of any statutory requirement for the ICU to conduct regular site inspections during the course of MBIS-related works; the ICU’s inspections at WFC were conducted solely in response to complaints and enquiries, not pursuant to any programmed monitoring regime.

  1. The Government acknowledges that this degree of reliance on professional self-

regulation, without more intensive verification during the works period, created a vulnerability that was deceptively exploited at WFC.

  1. The improvement measures already introduced and under consideration are

designed to address this vulnerability by introducing meaningful ongoing oversight during the works period rather than relying solely on pre-works and post-works certification.

  1. The recalibrated system preserves the role of registered professionals as the

primary actors responsible for compliance while introducing verification

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mechanisms with sufficient frequency and independence to detect the kind of systematic non-compliance that occurred at WFC. Q2. Supervision of professionals – RCs, RIs and RFSICs

  1. The registration systems for RIs, RCs and RFSICs serve as gateway controls

through which only suitably qualified professionals and contractors may undertake building works or FSI maintenance. The systems operate primarily at the point of entry (registration) and renewal, with prosecution and disciplinary action available as enforcement mechanisms for non-compliance detected subsequently.

  1. The evidence before the Committee reveals three areas for improvement in this

supervisory architecture as it operated before the fire.

  1. First, while the registration system did subject Prestige to enhanced scrutiny at

the point of renewal (including on one occasion refusing renewal of its RMWC registration in October 2019), the system operated as designed at the time did not preclude Prestige’s subsequent re-registration as an RGBC. The broader question is whether the system could be enhanced to better inform building owners of contractors' disciplinary histories at the point of engagement, and to enable more responsive regulatory action where serious incidents are involved. In this regard, the Government is actively pursuing legislative and administrative reforms, including (Table of Improvement Measures, Items B2(iii)-(iv); DEVB Paper §§3(d), 3(f), 7, 16 [WS23/2470, 2474, 2479]): 935.1. Empowering the BD to de-register PBPs and RCs directly without going through disciplinary procedures in cases of violations of the Prevention of Bribery Ordinance (Cap. 201) and Competition Ordinance (Cap. 619);

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  1. 2. Empowering the BD to renew registration of RCs for shorter periods and

with conditions for RCs involved in serious incidents; increasing the maximum penalty from $1 million to $10 million where works directly involved have caused serious cases of injury or death; and 935.3. Firming up information-sharing arrangements under which the URA will have access to conviction and disciplinary records for the purposes of compiling and maintaining pre-qualified lists under the enhanced Smart Tender service.

  1. Second, the supervision of RIs during the works period needed enhancement. The

current system expects that the RI will discharge the statutory duty; it provides no mechanism for detecting a failure to do so until completion (or until a complaint is received).

  1. Third, the supervision of RFSICs similarly relied on the integrity of their own

reporting. The FSD’s monitoring of RFSICs operated through the FS251 and SDN mechanisms, both of which depend on the accuracy / truthfulness and timeliness of the RFSIC’s submissions. The system was not designed to detect whether an SDN accurately described the FSI systems shut down or whether its corresponding FS251 accurately described the defects necessitating the repair works / shutdown. Neither was it designed to detect whether an RFSIC claiming to have conducted works had in fact visited the site, assessed the need and consequences for the shutdown, and effected the shutdown themselves. Q3. Sufficiency of the relevant procedural guidelines, codes of practice, etc.

  1. The evidence before the Committee identifies that private actors have sought to

create and/or invoke gaps and ambiguities in the prescriptive content of the regulatory framework so as to circumvent any such safeguards altogether. The

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Government reiterates that the intactness of the regulatory framework is not the primary cause of any contributing factor, but the Government acknowledges that there had arisen an environment in which private actors could exploit uncertainty and the current regulatory system needs clearer benchmarks for more proactive and immediate enforcement measures to be taken.

  1. In the area of construction materials: before the fire, no specific prescriptive

standard existed for temporary window protection materials (such as foam boards) in any regulation, code of practice or practice note. Section 16 of the B(C)R requires “appropriate precautionary measures” but provides no specific content as to what materials are or are not acceptable for temporary window protection. Similarly, before the fire, no specific FR standard existed for toe-boards, wooden planks or nylon strips used as scaffolding components.

  1. In the area of inter-departmental jurisdiction: no guideline clearly delineated

which department (the FSD, BD/ICU or LD) was responsible for addressing the fire safety implications of construction materials used on scaffolding. The result was that the fire safety concern raised by foam boards, canvas and other combustible materials used on the scaffolding did not receive a comprehensive response from any department.

  1. In the area of concurrent large-scale renovation works across multiple blocks:
  2. 1. Before the fire, no regulation, code of practice or practice note required a

risk assessment addressing the fire safety implications of simultaneous renovation works across multiple buildings in close proximity. AD Karen Cheung of the BD confirmed that there was no rigid requirement that works on multiple blocks in the same estate must be done separately or in phases; it depended on the contract and the works method [Day 20/36/4-7].

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  1. 2. She explained the rationale: blocks in the same complex share the same

DMC and land lease, were built around the same time with the same materials, and residents had given feedback that treating blocks differently within the same complex creates practical problems [Day 20/35/5-24]. 941.3. The Government notes, however, that the MBIS Code already required the RI and RC to provide proper supervision and control during the course of rectification and repair works, including “adequate measures to ensure a safe working environment” (clause 6.1.2(a)) and safety measures to “safeguard the workers, occupants and the public as well as the adjacent buildings” (clause 6.2.1) [J1-2/4907]. These existing obligations, properly discharged, would encompass a fire safety risk assessment appropriate to the nature and scale of the works, including the cumulative risks arising from concurrent renovation across multiple blocks. 941.4. After the fire, the BD issued a circular in March 2026 (paragraph 4) [B13/5714-5719] reminding contractors and professionals to conduct risk assessments before works start, including consideration of whether phased works are appropriate having regard to fire safety, and suggesting to owners that works be done by phases. AD Karen Cheung confirmed that some complexes have since adopted this phased approach [Day 20/36/13- 23]. 941.5. In addition, an inter-departmental working group comprising the LD, BD and FSD has been established to study the requirements regarding safety distance for buildings requiring erection of scaffolding for large-scale repair works. Subject to the findings of that study, it is proposed that the BA may prescribe requirements regarding the safety distance for buildings

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undergoing concurrent large-scale repair works (Table of Improvement Measures, Items B2(vi) and E4(i)). Q4. Internal and external communications (i) Internal communications between the BD and ICU under the delegation arrangement

  1. The delegation arrangement between the BD and ICU, while conferring on the

ICU the full statutory authority to exercise building control over sold HOS estates, was not invariably accompanied by communication mechanisms sufficient to ensure that developments in the BD’s practice were promptly conveyed to the ICU.

  1. In particular, the BD had adopted a practice of selecting 20% of Class I MW with

supervision plans for immediate site safety inspections by the site monitoring team from April 2023; the ICU was only informed of its existence until 22 December 2025, after the fire. The six-monthly liaison meetings between Head(ICU) and the Deputy Director of the BD covered mainly policy or overall operational issues and did not capture details of individual projects or new operational practice adopted by the BD’s teams. The Government acknowledges there is an area requiring improvements. (ii) Internal communications between the Police and FSD during the firefighting and rescue operations

  1. The evidence demonstrates that the intended design for 999 call-handling

(immediate transfer to the FSD upon confirmation that a call relates to fire or rescue) was not consistently followed on 26 November 2025. In some cases, police operators collected information and asked questions before transferring calls to the FSD, causing callers to repeat information.

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part on fax or email. FSD will actively work with the Police to refine information exchange mechanisms, enhancing the efficiency of both departments in handling emergency calls (Table of Improvement Measures, Item A12(ii)).

and actual practice is a joint FSD-Police issue requiring resolution. A joint review of 999 call-handling procedures is being conducted, encompassing the elimination of duplicated questions. (iii) Internal communications across departments and referrals of complaints / enquiries – the roles of the 1823 hotline, the HAD and other relevant Government Departments under ToR 1 in referring complaints and enquiries to the appropriate Department(s) for handling

multiple departments, each of which processed the complaint within its own jurisdictional mandate and, where appropriate, referred it to another department.

relevant departments. Departments also referred complaints laterally.

coordination mechanisms for large-scale renovation projects, including: the FSD's enhanced case referral and handling mechanism, under which the FSD will proactively refer fire safety cases to the most appropriate department (with the complainant’s consent), confirm that the referral has been taken over by the relevant department, and escalate any contested referral to Assistant Director or Deputy Director level for inter-departmental coordination (Table of Improvement Measures, Item A11); the newly-implemented notification mechanism between BD and LD whereby BD will regularly provide LD with information to facilitate 350

its timely safety inspections at buildings with scaffolding work and buildings issued with statutory notices (Table of Improvement Measures, Item E4(iii)); and the enhanced information-sharing within the RenoSafe framework. (iv) External communications with residents

  1. The residents of WFC made complaints to multiple departments about safety

concerns over a period of months. The Government acknowledges that more transparent, accurate and informative communication with complainants would have been desirable and would have maintained confidence in the regulatory system. The reforms include enhanced complaint-handling protocols and the commitment to substantive responses that address the specific concerns raised. (v) External communications with building professionals

  1. The primary mechanism for communicating regulatory requirements to building

professionals was through circular letters, practice notes and codes of practice published by the BD and LD. The evidence demonstrates that these communications were issued and updated (including after the Mariners’ Club and Chinachem Tower fires), and that reminder emails were sent to the RI of WFC specifically.

  1. These communications relied on compliance by the recipients. Where the RI was

not discharging his supervisory function, the communications did not produce the intended effect.

  1. The reforms address this by the ICU requiring RIs to submit regular site

supervision records during works (thereby creating a verifiable trail of supervisory activity) and by establishing regular ICU site inspections that provide an independent check on compliance during the works period.

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Q5. Status of technology application

  1. A recurring theme across the contributing factors and firefighting operation is the

extent to which critical processes relied on manual, paper-based or technologically outdated systems that were inadequate for the challenges presented by a large-scale renovation site and the incident that followed.

  1. In the area of FSI monitoring, despite the availability of an electronic submission

platform, the FSD’s FS251 processing was approximately 95% paper-based, with certificates submitted by hand, fax or post and subject to time lags of up to eleven months between signing and inputting into the LIFIPS database. The consequence was that the FSD’s monitoring system did not reflect the real-time status of FSIs at any given building, and anomalies such as the near-simultaneous submission of Victory Fire’s FS251 and China Status’s first SDN could not be detected in a timely manner. The SDN extension mechanism similarly operated through paper submissions without automated alerts or escalation triggers, such that 16 consecutive extensions over 7.5 months passed without generating any system- level flag.

  1. In the area of construction material verification, neither the ICU nor LD possessed

any technological tool for authenticating FR test certificates. Verification depended entirely on visual inspection of paper documents furnished by the contractor. No database of accredited laboratories, no digital signature verification, and no equivalent anti-forgery mechanism existed. A certificate bearing a slightly altered laboratory name and a plausible standard reference was sufficient to pass every check.

  1. In the area of site inspection, the ICU’s selection of inspection locations was

conducted manually rather than by computer-randomised allocation, creating at least a theoretical vulnerability to anticipation or manipulation by those subject

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to inspection. No digital monitoring tools were deployed for the ongoing supervision of scaffolding conditions, material usage or site safety at WFC or any comparable renovation site.

  1. In the area of firefighting operations, the information relay from the FSCC to

frontline commanders relied on manual photography of computer screens and transmission via an instant messaging application. Frontline commanders received up to several hundred images in a single chat group during the WFC fire, each requiring individual attention. The Firefighter Location System was incapable of penetrating concrete above approximately the 23rd floor, rendering it ineffective for high-rise operations. The breathing apparatus communication system (VoiceCOM) lacked a direct link to handheld radios, producing unclear transmissions under operational conditions.

  1. The Government acknowledges that earlier adoption of digital systems for FS251

processing, automated anomaly detection for SDN extensions, blockchain-based certificate verification, computer-randomised inspection selection, and enhanced firefighter communication and location systems would have been desirable. But for the delays in commissioning the 4th Generation Mobilising System, attributable in part to the pandemic and supply-chain disruptions, the 4th Generation Mobilising System would have been in service when the largest fire in Hong Kong’s history occurred.

  1. The reforms now in progress represent a deliberate shift from manual, paper-

based processes to digital systems capable of real-time monitoring and automated anomaly detection. These include the mandate for electronic FS251 submission with QR-code generation upon receipt; the PNRC 85 requirement for encrypted, digitally signed test certificates from Government-designated accredited laboratories; the LD’s corresponding amendment of the Code of Practice for

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Bamboo Scaffolding Safety to incorporate BD’s latest requirements under PNRC 85; the ICU’s adoption of computer-randomised selection for inspection locations; the new dual-frequency FLS with height-differential display; the Interspiro BA system with integrated Spirocom radio connectivity; the 4th Generation Mobilising System with 100 lines and automated simultaneous information relay; and the introduction of SMS location sharing and a video evidence collection platform for the public. Collectively, these reforms are designed to eliminate the manual vulnerabilities that the WFC fire exposed and to equip the regulatory and operational framework with technological capabilities commensurate with the risks it is required to manage. R. THE GOVERNMENT’S SUBMISSIONS IN CONCLUSION OF TOR 1 R1. Conclusions on the direct causes of the fire, spread of fire and heavy casualties

  1. On the basis of the evidence before the Committee, the Government submits that

the following conclusions are supported on the balance of probabilities.

  1. The fire most probably originated from a glowing source, such as a lit cigarette

end, igniting combustible materials accumulated on the flat roof outside Flats 104 and 105 of Wang Cheong House. The windy and dry weather conditions (relative humidity approximately 40%, Red Fire Danger Warning in effect, east-to- southeast wind approximately 14 km/hr) contributed to the development of the fire, but it was the abundant presence of combustible materials at the point of origin and the presence of suspected non-FR materials in the re-entrant space that allowed the fire to grow in size, intensify and rapidly spread.

  1. The rapid vertical spread of the fire was driven by the chimney-like configuration

of the re-entrant, which confined and directed rising smoke and hot gases upward, and by the large quantities of combustible materials and suspected non-FR

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materials accumulated within the re-entrant across multiple levels, including scaffolding nets that are uncertified for and potentially lacking FR properties, non-FR canvas on catch-fans, wooden planks, toe-boards and nylon strips. The presence of safety nets potentially lacking FR properties was a critical factor: in small fire size cases, the CFD simulations demonstrated that with FR-certified nets the fire could not sustain itself, whereas with non-FR nets the result was significant fire spread and severe fire development. The non-FR canvas on catch- fans allowed small fires to escalate into widespread, intense blazes, and trapped embers and burning debris rather than performing their intended protective function. Furthermore, the combustion of non-FR or potentially non-FR safety nets, canvas, toe-boards, and etc. generated flaming droplets which dripped onto lower levels, serving as ignition sources for other combustible materials below, while wind-carried embers (burning fragments light enough to travel considerable distances) were lifted by the intense flames from the re-entrants and carried to the façades of adjacent buildings, where they ignited safety nets, construction debris and other combustible materials.

  1. The horizontal spread of fire from Wang Cheong House to adjacent blocks was

caused by secondary ignitions via wind-carried embers, flaming droplets from melting safety nets, and falling burning debris. Within a two-hour period, 11 instances of rapid vertical fire spread were observed at various re-entrants across multiple buildings, and it is conservatively estimated that more than 470 units were affected within that timeframe.

  1. The heavy casualties resulted from the combination of five factors that drastically

shortened the available safe egress time while simultaneously increasing the required safe egress time: rapid and extensive fire spread leaving residents with limited time to evacuate; fire-damaged combustible scaffolding collapsing and blocking exits at ground level; failure of fire alarms in all eight blocks depriving

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residents of timely warning; polystyrene window covers obstructing residents’ awareness and delaying their response; and compromise of the means of escape through access openings in staircases that permitted smoke and heat to infiltrate protected escape routes.

  1. The re-entrant design of the buildings (dating from 1983) and wind conditions on

the day of the fire were environmental factors beyond anyone’s control that amplified the consequences. These factors explain why the fire, once started, developed with such extraordinary speed; they do not explain why the combustible loading, non-compliant materials, fire alarm shutdown and compromised escape routes existed in the first place. Those conditions were the result of human conduct. R2. Conclusions on responsibilities of professionals and other non-governmental parties

  1. The Government invites the Committee to find that the primary responsibility for

the direct causes of the fire, its rapid spread and the heavy casualties lies overwhelmingly with private actors, specifically: 967.1. Prestige as main contractor, whose multiple acts of non-compliance, deception and misrepresentation across all five contributing factors were the direct and proximate cause of the hazardous conditions; 967.2. Will Power purportedly providing RI services and Ng Yeuk, the RI, whose complete failure to discharge statutory supervisory obligations permitted Prestige’s wrongdoings to continue unchecked throughout the renovation period;

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  1. 3. China Status, whose submission of incomplete and misleading

notifications to the FSD concealed the full extent of the FSI failure from the regulatory authority; 967.4. Victory Fire, whose failure to notify the FSD upon discovering the empty water tank and fire alarm shutdown in October and November 2025 was a lost opportunity to trigger the FSD’s contingency measures during the critical weeks before the fire; and 967.5. ISS, whose issuance of unlawful job orders, failure to coordinate between RFSICs, and passive handling of complaints facilitated and compounded the primary failures.

  1. The Government further invites the Committee to find that these private-actor

failures were not isolated or coincidental but formed a pattern of collaborative and mutually reinforcing wrongdoings. R3. Conclusions on the Government’s systemic and operational issues

  1. The Government acknowledges that the evidence before the Committee reveals

areas requiring improvements in the regulatory and supervisory framework with the result that the private actors’ wrongdoings went undetected before the fire. These areas gave rise to conditions in which the primary causes could operate without detection or intervention.

  1. The Government sets out below its conclusions on the systemic issues, framed in

general terms as areas for improvement in the framework’s design or execution rather than as judgements on individual bureaux and departments. This framing reflects the Government’s position that the responsibility for systemic reform lies with the Government collectively, and that the reforms introduced since the fire have been developed and implemented on a cross-departmental basis.

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(i) The weaknesses of the self-regulation regime for the supervision of building professionals under the MBIS and MWCS, and RFSICs

  1. The self-regulation model, while sound in principle and effective in the majority

of cases, proved inadequate when confronted with professionals who were either actively complicit in the contractor’s wrongdoings and/or were negligent to the degree of complete abdication. The evidence demonstrates that in certain segments of the building maintenance sector, the role of RI has been reduced to a mere formality: a professional appointed to satisfy statutory requirements without exercising any or any meaningful supervision. This phenomenon, described in the evidence as reflective of an “industry practice” in certain areas, represents an area for improvement of the professional self-regulation on which the MBIS and MWCS depend.

  1. In the opening address [Day 2/73-83], the Committee was taken to evidence

illustrating this phenomenon in the case of the RI for WFC: 972.1. WhatsApp conversations between Ng Yeuk and his full-time employer in which he described his role at Will Power as being “limited primarily to signing prescribed forms and inspection reports that were made available to [him], rather than actively engaging in MBIS works or related repairs, including those for [WFC]” [A2/item 170]; 972.2. Conversations between Ng and a middleman discussing the arrangement of freelance RI work on the basis of ‘just going through the motions’ and backdating documents [A2/items 171, 173.1]; 972.3. A “Bonus List” file recording that between 1 October and 10 November 2025, Ng signed 84 forms involving 56 different projects, including WFC (listed at $150M with a $150,000 bonus), with the only activity recorded

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being the signing of various statutory forms on batch dates [A2/item 174]; and 972.4. The transfer of Will Power shares to Wong Hap Yin on the evening of the fire [A2/173.2, 175].

  1. This evidence, if accepted, demonstrates that the RI for WFC exercised no

meaningful supervision whatsoever over the renovation works, and that his appointment served solely to satisfy the statutory requirements on paper.

  1. The fact that the authority did not detect professionals’ wrongdoings is a result of

the audit rates and verification mechanisms described above. The unreliable test certificate provided by Prestige passed through the LD’s and ICU’s review without detection because neither body had the basis or mechanism to authenticate the document against the issuing laboratory. (ii) Areas for improvement concerning the audit checks and inspections to identify risks and problems

  1. The audit-check mechanisms under the MBIS, MWCS and FSI regimes operated

on statistical sampling bases with rates that, while appropriate for quality assurance in a population of generally compliant professionals, were insufficient to detect deliberate and coordinated concealment.

  1. The audit mechanisms were designed to assess compliance across the system as

a whole rather than to monitor individual projects. Where no complaint was received and no audit selection occurred, there was no sufficient mechanism for detection regardless of the severity of the non-compliance. The absence of any requirement for site inspections by the ICU during the course of MBIS-related works meant that the works period between commencement and completion was a period during which supervisory oversight was limited, filled only by

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complaint-driven responses. The practical consequence may have been that, in the absence of complaints, the system’s reliance on statistical sampling left owners and the IO as the only parties with day-to-day visibility of conditions on site. (iii) Inadequacies in the relevant procedural guidelines, codes of practice, etc.

that hindered enforcement. No specific standard existed for temporary window protection materials. No standard existed for toe-board fire retardancy. The general language of section 16 of the B(C)R (“appropriate precautionary measures”) provided insufficient specificity for compliance and enforcement actions in the absence of a defined benchmark. The 1979 Code of Practice applicable to WFC’s FAS did not require warning labels on the main power switch. (iv) Weaknesses in internal communications and exchanges between the BD and ICU under the delegation arrangement

building control over sold HOS estates, but the communication mechanisms accompanying that delegation were areas requiring improvements to ensure real- time alignment of operational practice. The six-monthly liaison meetings covered policy-level matters and did not descend to the operational detail necessary to identify practice divergences. (v) The trailing in the use of more advanced technologies to assist work and/or manage risks

and processing, the FSD information relay during operations, the ICU inspection location selection, firefighter location tracking in high-rise buildings) relied on 360

manual or technologically outdated systems that were inadequate for the challenges presented by a major incident at a large-scale renovation site. R4. Executive summary of improvements and immediate steps taken by the Government after the fire

  1. Since the fire on 26 November 2025, the Government has implemented a

comprehensive programme of immediate improvement measures while simultaneously developing medium-to-long-term structural changes. This paragraph provides a consolidated summary; the detail is set out in the relevant sections above and in the Government’s Table of Improvement Measures.

  1. In the area of FSI: the FSD has mandated prominent notices of FSI shutdowns at

each lift lobby floor and mailbox notifications to residents (Table of Improvement Measures, Item A8) [B14/6235]; required tamper-evident seals on FSI power switches (Table of Improvement Measures, Item A8) [B14/6235]; established that FSI must be inspected and repaired before major renovations commence (Table of Improvement Measures, Item A3); completed functional tests on FSIs in 461 buildings undergoing major renovation by January 2026 (Table of Improvement Measures, Item A3); mandated electronic submission of FS251 forms by circular (Table of Improvement Measures, Item A9) [B14/6257]; established a Quick Response Team for FSI assessment during fires (Table of Improvement Measures, Item A4); created a two-way communication channel with the BD, ArchSD, HD and ICU for large-scale renovation projects (Table of Improvement Measures, Item A3); and initiated a pilot programme testing fire alarms in 1,500 to 5,000 older residential buildings (Table of Improvement Measures, Item A6). Legislative amendments are proposed to convert the SDN notification mechanism to an approval-based mechanism with a 60-day cap, to introduce a Responsible Person System for PMCs, to revise RFSIC registration

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to require periodic renewal, and to increase penalties for false or misleading certificates (Table of Improvement Measures, Item A10) [B14/6268-6326].

  1. In the area of building safety and construction materials: the BD has issued PNRC

85 [J1-2/6200-6209] requiring encrypted and digitally signed digital test certificates for scaffolding nets, mandatory sampling before installation by Government-designated accredited laboratories, and random on-site inspection with immediate cease-work orders for non-compliance (Table of Improvement Measures, Item C1). The LD has since January 2026 been deploying its staff to support the BD’s work in taking samples of scaffolding protective nets (Table of Improvement Measures, Item E4(ii)). The BD has issued a circular in March 2026 [B13/5714-5719] expressly prohibiting the use of combustible materials including foam boards on external walls or windows (with a limited exception for temporary chiselling). The BD is reviewing the BO and considering legislative amendments to empower it to specify requirements over construction methods and make non-compliance with material safety standards a new offence (Table of Improvement Measures, Item B2(v)).

  1. In the area of the MBIS and MWCS: the ICU has introduced site inspections at

least once every four months for large-scale MBIS renovation projects and has implemented the BD’s 20% site safety inspection practice for Class I MW with supervision plans. The ICU has increased the selection percentage to 30% for Class I minor works with supervision plans, effective since May 2026 (Table of Improvement Measures, Item B3(ii)(c)). The BD has also since December 2025 stepped up surprise inspections of large-scale building repair works sites at least once every six months (Table of Improvement Measures, Item B1).

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Government is reviewing the BO and considering legislative amendments to require supervision of large-scale building repair works by third-party professionals, with submission of prescribed plans and supervision plans before commencement of works; to clarify the duties of building inspection and works supervision under the existing large-scale repair works regime with a view to breaking the chain of interests between inspection consultants and contractors; and to strengthen the causes for disciplinary actions and the factors for considering registration renewal for registered building professionals and contractors. The ICU has implemented measures mandating the submission of supervision proposals by RIs, stepped up random checks on RI site inspection records, and introduced regular in-person meetings with RIs and RCs to follow up on works progress and details (Table of Improvement Measures, Items B2(i), (iii), (iv) and B3(iv)). In addition, the BD, subject to further legal advice, aims to share BO convictions with Professional Registration Boards and professional bodies starting from the fourth quarter of 2026, thereby extending the existing referral mechanism which currently covers disciplinary records under the BO only (DEVB Paper §16 [WS23/2479]). The DEVB also agrees to the suggestion to require PBPs (including RIs) appointed to supervise repair works to declare before commencement of works that they have no conflict of interests with the RC appointed to carry out the prescribed repair; any false declaration may attract prosecution or disciplinary action and is considering to take this forward when reviewing the BO (DEVB Paper §21 [WS23/2481]).

ICU have strengthened their communication mechanism through multiple measures, including rationalising the consultation mechanism so that all consultations (including verbal consultations) require endorsement by a directorate-level officer from the BD and are recorded in a designated database 363

for reference by ICU staff; increasing the frequency of regular working-level liaison meetings from an annual basis to a quarterly basis to discuss annual enforcement targets, enforcement and implementation details, as well as specific cases, so as to ensure consistency between the practices of the ICU and BD; expanding the content of the bi-annual reports submitted by the ICU to the BD to include the handling of specific cases, the review of communication mechanisms and training matters as standing agenda items; and establishing a mutual secondment mechanism between the BD and ICU to enhance mutual understanding of each other’s standard practices and culture (Table of Improvement Measures, Item D1). The ICU and FSD have established the two- way communication channel for large-scale renovation projects. The LD, BD and FSD are developing joint inspection arrangements for RMAA sites. The RenoSafe framework is being enhanced with expanded information-sharing. The FSD is also working with the Police to refine information exchange and 999 call- handling arrangements.

  1. In the area of occupational safety and construction site management: the LD has

proposed a three-tier legislative reform to prohibit smoking at all construction sites and impose a fixed penalty of HK$3,000 on any person smoking at a construction site (amendment to Cap. 371), to empower an OSO to issue fixed penalty notices to a person who is committing or has committed the smoking offence (amendment to Cap. 600), and to impose a positive duty on contractors to take all reasonable measures to ensure that no person smokes or carries a lighted specified smoking product (e.g. cigarettes) or uses naked light to light a specified smoking product in a construction site (amendment to the CSSR) (Table of Improvement Measures, Item E1). The LD will revise the Code of Practice to specify material requirements for toe-boards and is exploring drone-assisted enforcement for the new smoking ban (Table of Improvement Measures, Items E1 and E2). Since 17 March 2026, the LD’s frontline staff has been directed to

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refer any non-conformity with the BD’s requirements on means of escape detected during site inspections to the BD and FSD for follow-up (Table of Improvement Measures, Item E5).

  1. In the area of firefighting technology and operations: the new Interspiro BA

system with Spirocom radio connectivity was placed into service in January 2026. A new dual-frequency FLS system is in procurement. The FSD added 18 and 20 additional telephone lines in April and June 2026 respectively, bringing the total number of available lines to 68 (Table of Improvement Measures, Item A12(ii)). The 4th Generation Mobilising System with automated information relay is in testing. The EAS is being reconfigured for localised use (Table of Improvement Measures, Item 12(iv)). A steering committee on high-rise firefighting strategies has been established under the Deputy Director’s chairmanship.

  1. The Government submits that this extensive cross-departmental programme of

improvement measures, in its breadth, its speed of implementation, and its structural ambition, demonstrates the Government’s commitment to ensuring that a fire of this nature cannot recur. The measures address not merely the specific failures exposed by the WFC fire but the underlying systemic vulnerabilities that permitted those failures to occur. They are designed to create a regulatory and supervisory framework that can withstand the deliberate and coordinated abuse of the kind that occurred at WFC, while preserving the foundational principles of private ownership and professional responsibility on which Hong Kong’s building management system is based. R5. The Government’s response to measures recommended by the Committee’s experts

  1. The Committee’s independent experts made a series of recommendations in their

expert report. The Government is giving serious consideration to these recommendations.

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collating views from industry stakeholders and professional bodies on the matters raised by the experts. As the Chairman observed: “whatever recommendation that we make will be based on different considerations” and “the most important thing is we have to change our culture and to look at our risk — reassess our risk” [Day 27/100/19-24]. As the Chairman put it, “what we are trying to do is we put our heads together and reassess the risks and then we try to make it as best as we can and we cannot make it too ideal in that sense. Of course the experts from the academic area, they have other consideration, but you can rest assured that what we are suggesting is that we set the path forward. It will be debated, stakeholders’ interests, whatever, but I think what we are trying to do is try to raise awareness of the whole public about the risks associated with this kind of project in the future, especially with many people living, still living in the buildings” [Day 27/101/2- 13]. The Chairman further indicated that the Committee’s recommendations “should not detach too much from reality” and that “every site is different” [Day 26/54/25 – 55/1, 55/10]. The Government respectfully agrees with this approach: recommendations must be grounded in practical reality while addressing the risks that this fire has exposed, and the Government will continue to bear such considerations in mind as and when the Government receives and comes to consider the Committee’s recommendations in due course.

central importance of risk assessment as the organising principle for future regulation of temporary works in occupied buildings.

designed risk-based methodology must be developed for approval of building maintenance and renovation works for all buildings in Hong Kong, enabling a bespoke building-specific temporary works solution to be implemented with 366

appropriate safety measures including potentially redundant fire safety installations” (IC Expert Report §7.4.1 [ER3/2255]). Prof Yuen endorsed the same principle: “in the area of risk assessment, I think it’s something that should be incorporated into monitoring, design and execution of work so that the parties will be alive to the risks in order to prevent incidents” [Day 26/51/10-13].

  1. The Chairman’s observation during the hearing encapsulates the rationale:

“regulation by itself is not the end... Even if they pass regulations, it may still cause … you are actually proposing an actual project, you have to have a risk assessment” [Day 27/73/14-20]. As Prof Usmani lamented, “in Grenfell, they were not violating the regulations; they had passed the test and it still happened” [Day 27/47/13-15]. In a similar vein, the Chairman rightly cautioned: “In a way I think Grenfell taught us even with all the best legislation, it can still happen” [Day 27/100/24 – 101/1]. The lesson of both WFC and the Grenfell Tower fire is that compliance with legislation and prescriptive standards, while crucial, might not be sufficient. It might be inadequate or inapt where the combination of site- specific factors creates additional risks. Hence, the key lies in raising awareness on risk assessment, both within the industry and socially.

  1. The risk assessment must not be a formulaic exercise. As Prof Usmani

emphasised: “Risk is a product of probability times consequence. So you cannot just look at — say the risk is reduced by reducing the probability of a fire happening. If you reduce the probability of a fire happening by fire-retardant materials, that’s fine. But if the consequence of a fire is going to be exceptionally high... then the risk is not just the probability that you have reduced but also the consequence” [Day 27/50/21 - 51/8]. Where the consequence of failure is catastrophic, the risk assessment must reflect that consequence irrespective of the assessed probability of ignition.

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inter alia, the prohibition of combustible materials in re-entrant spaces, a ban on simultaneous cladding of adjacent buildings, stricter approvals for renovation works involving re-entrants, fire-rated glazing for staircase and lift lobby windows facing re-entrant spaces, redundant FSI systems, enhanced monitoring, strengthened worker training, fire drills for occupants, and coordination with building management (IC Expert Report §§7.3.1(a)-(l) [ER3/2252-2255]). The experts also identified areas requiring further study and research, including the development of new lightweight non-combustible protective materials, bespoke redundant FSI systems for temporary works, and technology-driven monitoring solutions (IC Expert Report §§7.4-7.5 [ER3/2255-2256]).

perspective of fire engineering experts, as Prof Usmani confirmed: “this is our — essentially a view from our professional background” [Day 27/99/7-9]. As the Chairman observed, the Committee’s eventual recommendations will necessarily take into account other socioeconomic considerations [Day 27/99/4-6], and will require further consultation with stakeholders. Prof Usmani accepted this, confirming that the recommendations are “interim in nature and will need further considerations” [Day 27/98/23-24] and that implementation will depend on feasibility studies and practical constraints [Day 27/100/12-17].

already addressed by or consistent with the improvement measures set out in Section R4 above, including the BD’s prohibition on combustible materials on external walls or windows (March 2026 circular) [B13/5714-5719], the inter- departmental coordination mechanisms for buildings under renovation, and the enhanced site inspection regimes. Indeed, in a manner not dissimilar to the approach adopted by the Committee’s independent experts (by differentiating 368

into immediate and longer-term recommendations), the Government has introduced improvement measures which are categorized into short, medium and longer terms, many of which have already been introduced or are being introduced now, to avert the risk in future. The Government will also give careful and serious consideration to any eventual recommendations made by the Committee in its final report, and will continue to review and introduce further improvement measures as appropriate.

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PART IV: TOR 2 S. OUTLINE OF THE SYSTEMIC ISSUES AS IDENTIFIED FROM THE EVIDENCE

  1. Before addressing the involvement of each Government body and related

institution under ToR 2, it is appropriate to set out the systemic issues as they emerge from the totality of the evidence before the Committee.

  1. The Committee’s primary focus can properly be on the evidence available and

submissions made by the relevant parties.

  1. The Government recognises (as indicated by the Chairman) that there may be

difficulties in making specific factual findings regarding certain aspects of the WFC tendering process - particularly where persons who may have direct knowledge have declined to give evidence or where matters are sub judice.

  1. However, such difficulties need not prevent the Committee from discharging its

functions under ToR 2 and making relevant recommendations. This is consistent with the approach indicated by the Chairman at the evidential hearing on 8 May 2026, in which the Committee directed that the evidence received under ToR 2 mainly focuses on the WFC renovation works and does not cover other similar works in Hong Kong, and that the Committee will accordingly make reference to the conclusions of the reports submitted by relevant law enforcement agencies concerning ToR 2, and the information received from members of the public and organisations, as the basis for its findings of fact under this ToR.

  1. The systemic issues identified in this section are drawn from the reports, witness

statements and oral evidence of the Competition Commission, ICAC, Police, URA, and HAD. They are not limited to the individual WFC project but extend to broader sector-wide patterns.

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S1. Bid-rigging and other anti-competitive / unlawful conduct – consultants / RIs and contractors

  1. The evidence before the Committee establishes that bid-rigging in the building

maintenance sector is widespread, systematic and long-standing, encompassing multiple forms of anti-competitive conduct. The Competition Commission’s Report (“CC Report”) to the Committee states in terms: “The CC believes that there is indeed a widespread, systematic, and long-standing practice between some building maintenance contractors to affect the outcome of tenders for building maintenance works.” (CC Report to the Committee §12(1) [WS22/2451]).

  1. In his oral evidence, Wong Se King of the URA confirmed this assessment: the

building rehabilitation market in Hong Kong has long been exposed to anti- competition behaviour and a lot of contractors and consultants are involved. [Day 21/93/2-9].

  1. The Competition Commission has identified the following specific forms of anti-

competitive conduct in the sector: bid suppression (one or more contractors refraining from bidding); cover bidding (a pre-agreed “designated winner” supported by deliberately less attractive bids from others); bid rotation (a market- wide coordinated scheme in which members of syndicates facilitate each other’s chances of winning over a number of tenders); market sharing; information exchange; credential sharing; and phantom bidding (CC Report to the Committee §§12(1)(a)–(c), 12(3)(a)–(d) [WS22/2451-2453]).

  1. The Competition Commission has further found evidence of syndicate-led cartels

with organised systems of “registration,” dissemination of pricing instructions (referred to by the syndicates as “homework”), and the presence of ring-leaders and coordinators. These syndicate-led cartels may involve dozens of building maintenance contractors and consultants. In different cases, the Competition

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Commission has observed syndicates working with, as well as competing against, each other to affect the outcome of a tender (CC Report to the Committee §3(5) [WS22/2445]).

  1. A central structural feature of the problem identified by both the Competition

Commission and ICAC is the facilitation of contractor bid-rigging by consultants and RIs. The model operates as follows: a consultant wins appointment at below- cost fees, then steers the renovation contract to an affiliated contractor at an inflated price. The Competition Commission’s Report describes this practice: “These practices are sometimes facilitated by the consultants that are supposedly independently engaged by the owners / incorporated owners of a building. In these cases, the consultants may, in exchange for compensation (whether by way of outright payment or by taking a ‘cut’ from the final project works), agree to favourably recommend a building maintenance contractor for the owners and IO to select.” (CC Report to the Committee §12(2) [WS22/2451]).

  1. The ICAC’s Report confirms that in several of its investigated cases, “the RI

appointed by the consultant to oversee the project was in fact a mere dummy, who exercised little or no supervision over the project, and was only appointed to satisfy the statutory requirements imposed under the BO.” (ICAC Report §95 [WS10/1979]). Wong Se King of the URA confirmed in oral evidence that there is no effective mechanism to handle the situation where RIs use unreasonably low prices to win service contracts and then assist contractors to inflate the price. [Day 21/102/16-24].

  1. WFC is one of at least 11 housing estates and buildings targeted by the bid-rigging

syndicate in the Competition Commission’s March 2026 Competition Tribunal proceedings. The tender period alleged (April 2022–September 2023) corresponds to the period of contractor tendering at WFC. The total value of the

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relevant contracts across the 11 buildings is estimated at close to HK$700 million (CC Press Release (25 March 2026) [U2/164]).

  1. The Competition Commission confirms that all relevant consultancy and

contractor tenders at WFC contained non-collusion clauses (“NCCs”) and that most bidders executed non-collusive tendering certificates (NCTCs) (CC Report to the Committee §26 [WS22/2458]). The significance of this finding is that any person who was knowingly party to a collusive arrangement rendering the representations in the NCTC false may be criminally liable for conspiracy to defraud (CC Report to the Committee §§24–25 [WS22/2457-2458]). This demonstrates that preventive tools were in fact deployed at WFC; the wrongdoing is attributable to private actors who deliberately subverted the existing safeguards.

  1. The Competition Commission and ICAC, and Police, have identified triad

involvement in the building renovation sector. The Competition Commission has encountered cases where threats of or actual violence were used to compel bidders to withdraw or follow syndicate instructions, and where building maintenance contractors affiliated with the same triad society coordinated their bids (CC Report to the Committee §§12(4), 3(6) [WS22/2445-2446, 2453]). The ICAC’s assessment is that “organized syndicates, employing illicit methods such as corruption, triad tactics, bid-rigging and fraud to manipulate the tendering processes, are driven by the potential profits to seek a dominant market share.” (ICAC Report §99 [WS10/1980]).

  1. The Police also offer an important qualification: while triad involvement takes

many forms (direct involvement and discreet approaches through front persons, influence over “concern groups”, participation via indirect links with consultants or contractors), it may be inaccurate to assume triads are always the dominant driver. Many bid-rigging schemes are organised and executed by ordinary market

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players, with triad elements engaged only at particular stages, or not at all449 [WS1/287]. S2. Bribery – consultants / RIs and contractors bribing the relevant stakeholders, e.g. the PMC and members of the MC of the IO

  1. The ICAC’s evidence demonstrates a consistent pattern in which contractors

bribe PMC staff and MC members through cash payments, unreasonably low consultancy fees, kickbacks, and materials supplier arrangements. These payments are designed to corrupt the procurement decision-making process at the IO/MC level.

  1. The ICAC’s case studies provide detailed illustrations of this pattern. In one

investigated case involving a $262 million renovation project, a middleman admitted his role in assisting the contractor, confirming involvement of PMC staff, MC members and the consultant, with alleged kickbacks totalling approximately 17.5% of the project sum (approximately $46 million), paid in cash through middlemen and dummy companies (ICAC Report §§44–52 [WS20/2280-2282]).

  1. The ICAC observes that “corruption, undeclared conflicts of interest, fraud and

bid-rigging are often hidden behind layers of intermediaries and shell companies… The illicit payments are customarily made in cash making it difficult to trace illicit funds, let alone proving its corrupt purpose.” (ICAC Report §96 [WS20/2287]). S3. Other misconduct or dishonest conduct in the tendering and quotation processes

  1. Evidence from multiple sources identifies a range of dishonest conduct beyond

bribery and bid-rigging: preparation of inflated and misleading tender analysis

449 LAM Kai Chor (Supt, OCTB, Police) 1st WS §28

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reports; submission of false litigation records; use of below-cost consultant fees as a loss-leader to gain appointment and thereafter steer the renovation contract; unreasonably low manday estimates; use of dummy companies and shell companies; and false accounting records (ICAC Report §§45, 95 [WS20/2280, 2288]).

  1. The ICAC identifies the typical modus operandi: “the contractor was often part

of a crime syndicate with triad connection, who would collude with the consultant and other contractors to rig the bids, corrupt members of the MC and PMC, or deploy other illegal means (e.g. faking proxies) in order to manipulate the selection of the contractor for the project.” (ICAC Report §95 [WS20/2286]).

  1. In the context of WFC specifically, evidence before the Committee indicates that

Prestige submitted litigation records certified to show “no record of being sued by IOs and management companies” in the past seven years, but a post-fire litigation search returned 108 results including prior judgments and sentences; the submitted records “at least” appear incomplete450 [WS18/2221-2222]. S4. Abuse of the proxy system

  1. Both the ICAC and Police have identified manipulation and falsification of proxy

instruments at owners’ meetings as a common tool for achieving corrupt outcomes in contractor and consultant selection. The proxy system creates structural vulnerability given the collective decision-making framework of Owners’ Corporations.

  1. The ICAC reports that in one investigated case, suspects “might have assisted the

MC Members to collect proxies from some property owners, in order to facilitate them to manipulate voting at the owners’ meetings to achieve outcomes in their

450 WONG Se King Peter (Dir Building Rehab, URA) §§72-76

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favour.” (ICAC Report §§68–72 [WS20/2283-2284]). The same Report records that “in respect of the investigation by the Police on proxy manipulation, it was understood that no prosecution was initiated as there was no evidence to prove who had handled or submitted the proxies in question.” (ICAC Report §§68–72 [WS20/2283-2284]).

  1. The ICAC further observes that faking proxies is one of the “illegal means”

deployed by syndicates “in order to manipulate the selection of the contractor for the project.” (ICAC Report §95 [WS20/2286]).

  1. The Building Management (Amendment) Ordinance 2024 (effective 13 July 2025)

introduced enhanced requirements for declarations of interest in the context of large-scale procurement. The HAD has proposed further improvement measures to the proxy system, including a potential cap on the number of proxies an individual may hold and a posting requirement. These measures are addressed in Section U3(ii) below. S5. The failure of the PMCs in discharging their duties

  1. The ICAC identifies property management companies as structurally positioned

to exert corrupting influence over procurement decisions, given their operational proximity to OC meetings, voting arrangements, and tendering processes. The ICAC Report states: “In the context of building renovation projects, PMCs and PMC staff play key roles alongside other stakeholders. Their operational proximity to both building renovations and day-to-day building management functions, such as coordinating OC meetings and related voting arrangements, as well as administering tendering processes, places them in positions of considerable influence over procurement decisions.” (ICAC Report §13 [WS20/2268]).

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In one ICAC case study, “the MC confirmed that they had no system in place to deal with such conflicts of interest.” (ICAC Report §§84–88 [WS20/2285]). In another, a family member of the PMC proprietor had a financial interest in a materials supplier designated by the contractor (ICAC Report §§84–88 [WS20/2285]).

2025), which now requires a responsible person for the procurement of large- scale building renovations to make a declaration of any pecuniary or other personal interest in relevant suppliers, represents a direct response to this identified vulnerability (ICAC Report fn.26 [WS20/2286]).

consultants for their professional advice in terms of building inspection, identifying suitable work options, tender analysis and subsequent supervision of works. As a result, consultants and contractors are rife with collusion, corruption and ‘silent agreements’, commonly found between organized crime groups”451 [WS1/287]. This observation encapsulates the structural vulnerability that PMC failures compound. 451 LAM Kai Chor 1st WS §31

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T. THE INVOLVEMENT OF THE GOVERNMENT AND RELATED BODIES T1. The URA

  1. The URA is a statutory body established under the Urban Renewal Authority

Ordinance (Cap. 563), one of whose objectives under section 5 is to promote the maintenance and improvement of individual buildings in terms of structural stability, external finishes and fire safety452 [WS18/2209-2210].

  1. In 2016, the URA Board approved the launch of the Smart Tender scheme as a

fee-based service specifically designed to reduce the risk of bid-rigging faced by building owners and OCs. The scheme was designed to address five categories of misconduct spanning the entire tendering process: internal collusion between MC members and bidders; manipulation of tender documents to filter out non- colluding bidders; bid suppression through selective invitation and obstruction; manipulation of the bid return and opening process; and manipulation of the tender analysis report453 [WS18/2210].

  1. The WFC IO applied to join Smart Tender on 2 February 2018, and a bilateral

service agreement was signed on 16 June 2018 confirming the URA’s role as agent of the OC to assist in engaging the contractor454 [WS18/2224-2225]. RS Surveyors Limited (“RS Surveyors”) was assigned as the independent consultant under Smart Tender455 [WS18/2225].

  1. At the time WFC joined Smart Tender in 2018, the e-tendering platform did not

extend to the engagement of RIs or consultants. Accordingly, the URA had no involvement in the tendering for Will Power as consultant (noting that Will Power cannot be directly engaged as RI in any event) and had no knowledge of the

452 WONG Se King §§7-8 453 WONG Se King 1st WS §§11-13 454 CHAN Yat Ho Matthew (Case Mgr, URA) 1st WS §§9, 15 455 CHAN Yat Ho Matthew 1st WS §18

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tendering arrangements456 [WS18/2225-2226]. The URA provided only limited assistance for the RI engagement: posting the tendering notice on the URA’s platform, and preparing a one-page tender price summary based on 24 tender materials provided by the OC, without any assessment of reasonableness of prices457 [WS18/2225-2226].

  1. Similarly, the URA had no role in the tendering for the consultant in January 2020,

including preparation of tender documents, receiving and opening of tenders, and attending the bid opening on 20 January 2020. The OC also declined the URA’s offer to use the e-tendering platform for the consultant appointment 458 [WS18/2227].

  1. The role of RS Surveyors as independent consultant under Smart Tender appeared

to be defined and limited: to prepare preliminary assessment reports, an independent cost estimate (sealed until bid opening), and a returned tender analysis report. RS Surveyors did not comment on the reasonableness of optional works items, the choice of materials, or the pricing strategy of tendering consultants and contractors. RS Surveyors confirmed in its reply to the Committee that its role was “limited to preparing the cost estimate based on the draft tender documents” and that it did not conduct independent verification of tenderers’ backgrounds or connections, as “such verification falls outside the scope of our appointment as an independent consultant under the Smart Tender Scheme” [WS21/2341-2342]. Wong Se King confirmed in oral evidence that regarding anti-bid-rigging, the consultant had “very little role to play” because “at that stage tenders have already returned, we just need to make sure the tender is fair.” [Day 21/119/24 - 120/4]. He further confirmed that regarding collusion

456 CHAN Yat Ho Matthew 1st WS §§16, 20 457 CHAN Yat Ho Matthew 1st WS §§19, 22, 23 458 CHAN Yat Ho Matthew 1st WS §31-32

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to conduct unnecessary works, “the consultant could not prevent this from happening.” [Day 21/122/9-20].

  1. The Smart Tender e-tendering platform was used for the contractor procurement

in 2023. The advertisement went live on 16 May 2023; 99 contractors downloaded the final tender document; 57 tenders were submitted and opened on 5 July 2023 in the presence of a registered accountant and the OC’s representative; no tenders were withdrawn 459 [WS18/2230-2231]. The URA did not check associations among the 57 tendering companies in public records and accepted that this was not the URA’s responsibility; it relied entirely on the consultant (Will Power).

  1. After the fire, the URA is developing an enhanced Smart Tender service (“Smart

Tender 2.0”) incorporating: a pre-qualified contractor list based on police and ICAC background screening; URA-conducted tender vetting replacing reliance on the consultant; and disclosure requirements for contractor shareholding connections. Wong Se King stated: “In the future we will also get involved in the vetting of tenders… In Wang Fuk Court there were 57 tenders. In the future we will go through all 57 tenders. In the past we relied on Will Power, but in the future we will take matters into our own hands” [Day 21/139/3 - 140/15].

  1. In early December 2025, upon learning of law enforcement action against Will

Power and Prestige (including the arrest of their key personnel), the URA exercised its discretion under clause 13.1 of the Building Rehabilitation Company Registration Scheme Terms and Conditions Manual to remove their registrations in writing460 [WS18/2232].

459 CHAN Yat Ho Matthew 1st WS §§54, 57 460 CHAN Yat Ho Matthew 1st WS §

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T2. The Competition Commission

  1. The Competition Commission is the primary enforcement agency under the

Competition Ordinance (Cap. 619). In addition to its enforcement function, one of its statutory functions is to conduct market studies into matters affecting competition in markets in Hong Kong (CC Report to the Committee §§4–5 [WS22/2449]).

  1. The Competition Commission’s 2016 market study identified suspicious patterns

consistent with widespread bid-manipulation in the building maintenance sector, including bids by consultants priced below the minimum cost of providing services — suggesting remuneration through other, possibly nefarious, means — and statistically anomalous frequency of certain consultants working with certain contractors (CC Report to the Committee §7 [WS22/2449-2450]). These findings pre-date the full commencement of the Competition Ordinance and demonstrate that the structural problem in the sector was already well-documented well before the WFC fire.

  1. Between 2016 and 2019, the Competition Commission successfully brought three

enforcement actions against 18 undertakings and 5 individuals for anti- competitive conduct (price-fixing and market sharing) in the decoration and renovation sector, obtaining declarations of contraventions, pecuniary penalties, and director disqualification orders (CC Report to the Committee §9 [WS22/2450]).

  1. From 2022 onwards, the Competition Commission conducted five major

investigations into the large-scale building maintenance sector in coordination with the Police’s Organised Crime and Triad Bureau, covering at least 68 residential estates, 15 industrial estates, and 64 companies (CC Report to the Committee §10 [WS22/2450]).

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regarding a newly-rising syndicate and thereafter conducted two joint operations with the ICAC in April and August 2024, leading to the filing of proceedings in the Competition Tribunal in March 2026 (CC Press Release (25 March 2026) [U2/164]). WFC is one of the 11 named buildings in those proceedings.

bid-rigging syndicate comprised several contractors and middlemen, was operated by a mastermind who scouted for target building maintenance projects and selected syndicate contractors to bid for those tenders. In any given tender, contractors were assigned either to be the “main character” (the syndicate’s designated winner) or “helpers” (those responsible for providing cover bids), and pricing instructions (“homework”) were prepared and distributed (CC Press Release (25 March 2026) [U2/161]).

amending the Competition Ordinance to stipulate the civil standard of proof in pecuniary penalty proceedings; incorporating statutory presumptions; clarifying that the Commission need not prove bid-rigging was “not made known” to the tendering body; increasing penalties and director disqualification periods; and requiring Statutory Declarations in large-scale tenders to facilitate criminal prosecution (CC Report to the Committee §§28–32 [WS22/2458-2460]). The Competition Commission has also completed preparing an enhanced version of the NCCs (i.e. the Non-Collusion Clauses) for procurers to incorporate into their tender documents and procurement contracts, including adding a clause explicitly stating that violating the NCC may constitute a criminal offence, and introducing additional terms requiring bidders to make a Statutory Declaration affirming the warranties within the NCC. The enhanced NCC is expected to launch soon (Table of Improvement Measures, Item G4). 382

T3. The ICAC

  1. The ICAC has statutory responsibility under the ICAC Ordinance (Cap. 204) to

investigate corrupt practice, examine government procedures conducive to corruption, and educate the public against corruption (ICAC Report §§1–3 [WS20/2263-2264]). It has adopted a three-pronged strategy (enforcement, prevention, education), specifically targeting the building renovation sector.

  1. Corruption complaints regarding building management and maintenance issues

have for many years accounted for approximately 25% of all complaints made to the ICAC each year. Focusing on complaints regarding building renovations over the last three years (2023–2025), the ICAC received 239 complaints, of which 220 (92%) were formally investigated (ICAC Report §§33, 34, 38 [WS20/2276- 2278]).

  1. Despite 137 arrests in 2023–2025, criminal prosecution rates are low due to the

inherent nature of corruption in this sector. The ICAC explains: “Criminal activities in building renovations are inherently difficult to investigate and prosecute despite protracted investigative efforts, due to its secretive and syndicated nature. Corruption, undeclared conflicts of interest, fraud and bid- rigging are often hidden behind layers of intermediaries and shell companies. Infights and disputes always complicate the issue. The illicit payments are customarily made in cash making it difficult to trace illicit funds, let alone proving its corrupt purpose. Potential witnesses, if any (including property owners or junior staff members of contractors, consultants and PMCs), may fear retaliation especially when triads are involved.” (ICAC Report §96 [WS20/2287]).

  1. The ICAC’s Community Relations Department reached over 4,600 people from

over 870 building management bodies annually and issued over 4,000 letters to

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building management bodies over three years, though the average response rate has remained low — “reflect[ing] the generally low level of interest in BMM matters among property owners and other stakeholders.” ICAC Report §28 [WS20/2273]. The ICAC’s Corruption Prevention Department has provided recommendations to the HAD on legislative amendments to the BMO, including enhancement to procurement requirements and improvements to proxy arrangements (ICAC Report §29 [WS20/2275]).

  1. Because of the high threshold for prosecution, the ICAC also deploys early

intervention to alert building owners to risks and frustrate syndicates before they execute their schemes. Over three years, 20 early interventions were carried out covering 32 buildings and estates (ICAC Report §42 [WS20/2279]).

  1. The ICAC’s summary assessment is stark: “This high-value environment

operates largely within a framework that is built on an honour system, which relies on trust and integrity on the part of the consultants and contractors to function. It however contains inherent and apparent structural vulnerabilities.” (ICAC Report §98 [WS20/2288]). The result is “a self-perpetuating cycle: the withdrawal of ethical professionals further distorts the ecosystem in favour of nefarious elements, limiting choices for property owners and entrenching the dominance of problematic service providers. This cycle cannot be broken and reversed without targeted intervention.” (ICAC Report §100 [WS20/2288]).

  1. As at December 2025, based on the then available survey results only 128 out of

approximately 600 registered RIs had expressed interest in providing MBIS services. The small pool of RIs available in the building renovation market heightens their vulnerability (ICAC Report §21 [WS20/2271]).

  1. Further statistics of RIs providing services in the MBIS were submitted to the

Committee by the BD in its Third List of Documents dated 1 June 2026. In

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summary, according to the BD’s record as at 31 December 2025 [J3/7978], “there were 632 RIs, of whom some 400 had handled or are handling works related to MBIS notices. On average in the past five years, 233 different RIs submitted specified forms for the MBIS each year.”

  1. Between February and May 2026, the ICAC mounted three further major law

enforcement operations against corrupt syndicates targeting building maintenance projects, including Operation “Lion Rock” and Joint Operation “Scabbard” with the Police (ICAC Report post-report note [WS20/2289]).

  1. The Government notes the convergence of the ICAC’s analysis with that of the

Competition Commission and Police: the building renovation market is infiltrated by organised syndicates exploiting structural vulnerabilities in the regulatory and facilitative ecosystem. The ICAC’s three-pronged strategy is also consistent with the Government’s broader reform programme. T4. The Police

  1. The Police’s involvement in ToR 2 matters falls under the Organised Crime and

Triad Bureau (“OCTB”) and encompasses: the inter-departmental RenoSafe scheme; intelligence-gathering and referrals on organised crime and triad involvement in building maintenance; and their views on legislative reform461 [WS1/281].

  1. RenoSafe was launched on 4 September 2013 as an inter-departmental publicity

and education campaign by a working group initiated and chaired by the OCTB, in response to the potential infiltration of building maintenance works by criminals including triads462 [WS1/282]. Standing members of the working group

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currently comprise the Police, BD, Competition Commission, EMSD, FSD, HAD, ICAC, PMSA, and URA463 [WS1/282].

  1. RenoSafe members operate a risk assessment matrix (seven factors producing

high, medium and low risk ratings), a 24-hour police hotline (2527 7887), periodic inter-departmental briefings, and a building enrolment system. Since its launch in September 2013 until 31 January 2026, the Police paid visits to a total of 7,100 buildings, of which 3,055 were enrolled in RenoSafe; 148 briefing sessions were conducted; and 345 enquiries were received by the police hotline464 [WS1/283-286].

  1. The existence and growth of RenoSafe since 2013 evidences an inter-

departmental coordination mechanism for building maintenance-related crime has been in place for over a decade. RenoSafe’s remit was focused on publicity, education and crime prevention rather than more specifically on site safety supervision, and recent reviews have identified potential areas for improvement.

  1. The Police proposes enhanced information exchange among RenoSafe members

covering: large-scale maintenance works arising from statutory inspection and repair orders; tender information of subsidised building maintenance works; building maintenance works that repeatedly seek extensions of deadlines for compliance; and building management or maintenance work related complaints against building representatives465 [WS1/288-289].

  1. The Police’s view on organised crime and triad involvement, based on

observation, experience and reliable intelligence, is that triad involvement takes many forms but it would be inaccurate to assume triads are always the dominant

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driver. Many bid-rigging schemes are organised and executed by ordinary market players, with triad elements engaged only at particular stages or not at all. When the use of suppression or violence is essential, triads then become the “enforcer”. Intelligence indicates that a small number of triads had set up and were operating their own consultant and contractor companies466 [WS1/287].

  1. The Police considers that the current civil penalty regime under the Competition

Ordinance (Cap. 619) may not outweigh the potential gains from prohibited conduct, and proposes bespoke criminal legislation with clearly defines fiduciary duties for MCs, consultants and contractors. The Police further recommends immunity provisions and statutory informer protection to improve evidence gathering467 [WS1/289-290].

  1. The Government notes the convergence of the Police’s proposals with those of

the Competition Commission and ICAC.

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U. THE ROLES AND RESPONSIBILITIES OF THE HAD U1. The regulatory context for the HAD’s involvement (i) The HAD’s roles and responsibilities in facilitating building management

  1. The HAD’s role in building management is facilitative, not supervisory. The

foundational policy principle is that the right to private property carries with it the inherent responsibility for its proper management, including up-keeping and maintenance. Government intervention in private property management should be premised on safeguarding public interest, and should be exercised with caution and restraint given the right of private ownership468 [WS1/486].

  1. The SHYA is the statutory Authority under the Building Management Ordinance

(Cap. 344), and the HAD is her executive arm469 [WS1/486]. The HAD, through its DBMLTs in each of the 18 District Offices, provides the following services to OCs and owners: assisting in OC formation; attending owners’ meetings upon invitation and providing advice according to the BMO; advising parties of non- compliance and requesting rectification; answering BMO enquiries; and organising training and briefings for MC members and owners470 [WS1/487].

  1. The HAD has established a Central Platform on Building Management since 2018,

organising monthly briefings for OCs and owners at which relevant government departments (including the BD, FSD, EMSD, LD, and Police) and institutions (including the ICAC, URA and Competition Commission) introduce their services and schemes on building management and maintenance, including briefings on bid-rigging471 [WS1/489]; [Day 24/3/20 – 4/16].

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advisory panels. These services were made known to WFC owners but were not taken up by any resident or owner. [Day 24/5/4 – 6/4].

and professionalism, offering advice solely on BMO provisions, especially those governing procedures relating to the conduct of owners’ meetings and rights and powers of the IO and owners472 [WS1/505].

circumstances of the building. In the case of WFC, the HAD’s role was primarily to advise on meeting procedures and BMO matters. [Day 20/114/10-23]. (ii) The HAD’s powers under the Building Management Ordinance (Cap. 344)

common parts of a building, attend OC general meetings, and inspect or obtain copies of OC budgets, accounts, documents and records, for the purpose of ascertaining how a building is being controlled, managed or administered 473 [WS1/492]. This power serves mostly as a “last resort” for exceptional cases. Deputy Director Te Chi Wang confirmed in oral evidence that “under most circumstances, the parties would be cooperative, they would provide you with information, you do not need to invoke section 40A.” [Day 24/19/23 - 20/3].

(among others) the SHYA, to dissolve the MC and appoint an administrator. This power was invoked for the first time in relation to WFC on 6 January 2026, when Hop On (a subsidiary of the Chinachem Group) was appointed as administrator. 472 CHAN Hau-man 1st WS §7 473 TE Chi Wang 1st WS §§21-22

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DD Te confirmed: “I think this is unprecedented. That is the first time we invoked 31(1)(d).” [Day 24/21/5-19].

  1. The BMO does not confer on the HAD a power to compel the OC chairman to

convene a meeting. Where the chairman refuses, the remedy available to owners is to apply to the Lands Tribunal [Day 24/12/15-25]. Or Wai Yin acknowledged this: “if the chairman refused to hold a meeting, there was nothing you could do.” [Day 20/105/5-12]. This is a statutory constraint that manifested directly in the WFC experience.

  1. Similarly, the BMO does not confer on the HAD a prosecution power for general

non-compliance with building management obligations. The HAD’s enforcement tools are limited to advisory letters, verbal reminders, and (in the context of the present case) the exceptional resort to section 40A or section 31. [Day 24/24/22

U2. The conduct of the relevant WFC IO / disputes and challenges, and the HAD’s involvement at different stages (i) The stage of compliance with the MBIS and engagement of Will Power as the consultant providing RI services

  1. The Tai Po District Office (“TPDO”) attended the 21st Annual General Meeting

of the IO of WFC held on 25 January 2019, during which Will Power was appointed as the inspector. No irregularity was observed by the attending TPDO representative474 [WS1/507].

  1. TPDO was not involved in the appointment of Will Power or the conduct of the

MBIS inspection. According to file records and confirmation with the relevant TPDO colleagues, TPDO had no role in respect of Will Power’s appointment or

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the subsequent inspection carried out by that firm 475 [WS1/507]. This is consistent with the HAD’s facilitative role. (ii) The stage of renovation design and project procurement, and engagement of Will Power as the consultant for the subsequent renovation works

  1. TPDO was not consulted on and had no involvement in the tendering for Will

Power’s appointment as renovation consultant [WS1/508].

  1. According to file records, TPDO had not been “consulted or approached to seek

or ask to give advice in respect of the tendering process for appointment of consultant for the Wang Fuk Court Renovation and/or the eventual appointment of WP as consultant” 476 [WS1/508]. Nor did TPDO receive any complaints about the reasonableness or propriety of Will Power’s consultancy bid477 [WS1/508]. The HAD’s primary objective in this context is to safeguard the procedural transparency of the bid selection process; it was not in a position to form a view on the reasonableness of any bid or consultancy fee, but remained vigilant in referring reports of irregularities, had any been received, to the appropriate enforcement bodies478 [WS1/508].

  1. Earlier disputes among owners in the second half of 2021 were known to TPDO.

A group of owners dissatisfied with the then MC attempted to remove members of the MC by convening a meeting at the request of not less than 5% of owners. TPDO responded to 16 phone enquiries regarding meeting procedures 479 [WS1/508]. The resolution to remove MC members was not successful at the EGM held on 11 December 2021. It did not come to TPDO’s attention that there

475 CHAN Hau-man 1st WS §12 476 CHAN Hau-man 1st WS §14 477 CHAN Hau-man 1st WS §15 478 CHAN Hau-man 1st WS §15 479 CHAN Hau-man 1st WS §16

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was any irregularity regarding improper gathering of proxy votes or exclusion of residents from attendance at the meetings during this period480 [WS1/508-509]. (iii) The stage of contractor tendering and selection

  1. The EGM of 28 January 2024 was the critical juncture at which Prestige was

appointed as contractor for the WFC renovation works. The meeting was held at the basketball court in WFC and was attended by Or Wai Yin of TPDO481 [WS1/529].

  1. The resolution appointing Prestige was passed by a majority of 54.79% of the

owners’ votes482 [WS1/530]. At the same meeting, Option 3 for the renovation works (hacking off all original external claddings, carrying out concrete repair, adding waterproofing plastering, and covering external walls with new mosaic tiles and paint) was also passed by an 80.5% majority483 [WS1/530] [G1-1/1005].

  1. Or Wai Yin confirmed that neither the MC, the IO, nor any residents of WFC had

consulted, sought, or received advice from the HAD before or during the meeting in respect of the appointment of Prestige as contractor. As far as she could observe, she “did not see any irregularity or non-compliance with the procedural requirements under the Building Management Ordinance” during that meeting484 [WS1/530].

  1. Or Wai Yin’s attendance at the meeting followed the HAD’s standard practice.

She arrived approximately 15 minutes before the meeting to take a look at the background of the OC, checked whether notice postings were compliant, and observed registration to see “whether everything is smooth” and “whether there

480 CHAN Hau-man 1st WS §§16-17 481 OR Wai-yin (Liaison Officer, HAD) 1st WS §6 482 OR Wai-yin 1st WS §7 483 OR Wai-yin 1st WS §9 484 OR Wai-yin 1st WS §8

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is any suspicious behaviour” [Day 20/115/10-20]. She observed that 57 potential contractors were listed [Day 20/115/16-17].

  1. The initial attendee count of 293 was announced by the MC at the commencement

of the meeting [Day 20/93/2-7]. The subsequent increase in votes from the initial count of 293 to approximately 570–590 at the time of voting drew resident complaints. Or Wai Yin followed up with the management office and was told that the management office continued to register attendees after the initial quorum announcement; the figure of 293 represented the quorum count at approximately 1:50 pm, not the final registration total. Or Wai Yin confirmed she found this explanation acceptable [Day 20/93-95]. Or Wai Yin photographed approximately 280 proxy votes at the meeting [G4/2735]; she observed approximately 200 to 300 people in attendance and considered the number of proxies consistent with that observation [Day 20/95/8-18].

  1. As to the proxy mechanism: under paragraph 3(5)(b) of Schedule 3 to the BMO,

it is the chairman or, in his absence, the person who presides at the meeting, who determines the validity of a proxy instrument. The HAD has no statutory role in this determination.

  1. Chan Hau Man confirmed that the HAD’s position is that proxy voting is a proper

tool under the BMO for owners unable to attend meetings in person to participate in building management decisions: proxy instruments represent “a way to reflect the choice and decision of owners” and “the owner should choose a person they trust to get the proxy in order to make a decision for them” [Day 20/125/25 - 126/23]. The holding of proxies by an individual is not, of itself, a contravention of the BMO. Where allegations of criminal conduct in the obtaining of proxies arise, and specific information is provided, the appropriate course is referral to the enforcement authorities [Day 20/126/13-23; Day 20/128/21-25].

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which Prestige was selected as contractor, questioning the validity of proxies collected for the meeting 485 [WS1/510]. TPDO replied to complainants and followed up by referring and relaying the complaints and requests to the MC. A further 8 complaints questioned Prestige’s qualifications and suitability for appointment, carrying concerns over the validity of its licences and its previous conviction records; 4 of the 8 complaints were also lodged directly with the BD and URA by the complainants themselves486 [WS1/510].

January 2024 meeting [Day 20/103/5-8]. The evidence demonstrates that, at the time the contractor appointment decision was made, the HAD’s representatives had no information before them indicating that Prestige’s record raised concerns. (iv) The stage of contract finalisation and execution

supervision adequacy, and fire safety during works. TPDO did not have any other knowledge of these issues487 [WS1/512].

constructed. As no BMO irregularity was involved or observed, no action by the HAD was taken488 [WS1/512]. This is a consequence of the HAD’s facilitative mandate.

letters issued to the MC which were copied to TPDO among other departments. 485 CHAN Hau-man 1st WS §20 486 CHAN Hau-man 1st WS §21 487 CHAN Hau-man 1st WS §27 488 CHAN Hau-man 1st WS §28

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TPDO relayed the letters to the PMC for necessary follow-up actions and provided substantive reply to the complainant489 [WS1/513]. This referral and reply is consistent with the HAD’s complaint-handling mechanism: for complaints not within the BMO’s purview, the HAD confirms receipt, refers to the relevant body, and replies substantively to the complainant. (v) The stage of re-election of the MC up to the fire

  1. In February 2024, the then MC Chairman Tang was requested by not less than 5%

of the owners to convene an owners’ meeting. TPDO received complaints against Tang for failing to respond to the request within 14 days as required by paragraph 1(2) of Schedule 3 to the BMO.

  1. TPDO issued 4 advisory letters to Tang [G1-1/1312-1321] and also verbally

contacted him, reminding him to undertake his duties in accordance with the relevant BMO provisions 490 [WS1/511]. Or Wai Yin confirmed that if the chairman refused to hold a meeting, as a matter of practice there was nothing the HAD could do beyond issuing advisory letters [Day 20/105/5-12]. The first February 2024 request was ultimately withdrawn by the convener [Day 24/11/17- 19; Day 20/117/24-25].

  1. On 5 July 2024, Tang was again requested by not less than 5% of the owners to

convene an owners’ meeting, this time seeking to re-elect the MC and extend the payment schedule. TPDO maintained close liaison with Tang, issued another 4 advisory letters, and also verbally contacted him to remind him of his duties under the BMO 491 [WS1/511]. Or Wai Yin confirmed that the tone of the letters escalated: the 29 July 2024 letter [G1-1/1319-1320] was “more detailed” and the “tone is sterner” [Day 20/105/13 - 106/2]. When Tang expressed difficulty

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finding a venue that could accommodate the large number of owners, TPDO coordinated and facilitated the rental of the hall of CCC Fung Leung Kit Memorial Secondary School, located adjacent to WFC, for the owners’ meeting scheduled for 6 September 2024492 [WS1/511; Day 20/107/5-8].

  1. At the 6 September 2024 EGM, 1,243 owners attended in person and by proxy

[Day 20/107/9-12]. The HAD’s involvement was active and constructive. Or Wai Yin found that a significant number of owners were still queuing to register at the scheduled start time and suggested delaying the start to allow more owners to complete registration [Day 20/116/16-25]. She further suggested that a live broadcast to the outdoor playground be arranged so that owners who could not be accommodated inside the hall could participate [Day 20/116-117].

  1. During the meeting, Tang sought to adjourn the proceedings and left the venue.

The HAD representative intervened: she clarified that the decision to adjourn rested with the owners present at the meeting, and advised the owners of their rights under paragraph 3(1) of Schedule 3 to the BMO, which allowed them to appoint a substitute presiding person from among themselves if the chairman left the meeting493 [WS1/505; Day 20/113/2-12]. The meeting continued under a substitute presiding person, and the remaining items on the agenda were dealt with. The result of the meeting was that a majority voted in favour of dissolving the OC and the owners voted on, inter alia, the composition and membership of new MC [G1-1/1045-1046].

  1. The Government submits that the HAD’s intervention at the 6 September 2024

EGM demonstrates that the HAD did not passively observe even the most difficult situations. When the chairman abandoned the meeting in a manner that would have frustrated the owners’ statutory right to have their agenda items

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considered, the HAD representative acted promptly to ensure owners were informed of the procedural mechanism available to them. This intervention was entirely consistent with the facilitative role: advising on BMO procedure, maintaining impartiality between camps, and ensuring owners could exercise their statutory rights. The HAD did not take a side on the substance of any resolution; it ensured that the meeting could lawfully continue. U3. Systemic and/or operational weaknesses on the regulatory level

  1. The HAD’s mandate under the BMO does not extend to supervising construction

works, materials, or fire safety. Its jurisdiction is confined to building management procedures under the BMO. As Chan Hau Man confirmed: “When it comes to building management, it’s the rights and obligations of every owner. As to what choices they make, say, in the case of major renovation, the selection of contractors and details of the works, that would be the decision of owners” [Day 20/122/22 – 123/6].

  1. A central area as a matter of policy design identified in the evidence is the HAD’s

lack of statutory power to compel the OC chairman to convene a meeting. DD Te confirmed: “According to existing regulations, it’s true that the OC chairman has the power to convene a meeting. Owners, if the OC chairman does not convene meeting, can apply to the Lands Tribunal. That’s the design of the existing legislation” [Day 24/12/15-25]. In the WFC context, this resulted in 8 advisory letters being issued to Tang across two petition cycles without producing the required EGM within the statutory timeframe. The consequence for the owners was a protracted period during which concerns about the renovation could not be formally raised or resolved through the owners’ meeting mechanism.

  1. A further area for improvement is that the BMO complaint-handling mechanism

relies on the HAD identifying BMO-specific issues and referring others to the

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appropriate department. Where complaints crossed jurisdictional lines, the referral mechanism operated but was not always accompanied by proactive follow-up to ensure the receiving department had in fact taken substantive action. The Government acknowledges that, with the benefit of hindsight, more robust follow-through on inter-departmental referrals would have been desirable in a case of this complexity.

  1. The Government also acknowledges that in one instance, Or Wai Yin was unable

to open the audio files [G1/841-842] but she neither informed the complainant of this difficulty nor sought an alternative format [Day 20/111/10-19]. The appropriate course, had the recordings been accessible, would have been to follow up on the complaint. In any event, Chan Hau Man of the HAD confirmed that complaints involving allegations of unlawful conduct (such as fraudulent obtaining of proxy instruments) would be referred to law enforcement agencies rather than handled by the District Office itself [Day 20/128/21 – 129/1].

  1. The Government accepts that this ought to have been followed up. The singular

lapse should, however, also be viewed in its proper context. TPDO handled 44 relevant complaints in respect of WFC [Day 24/8/8-17], issued 8 advisory letters across two petition cycles, attended multiple owners’ meetings, facilitated the venue and live broadcast arrangements for the 6 September 2024 EGM, and intervened actively when the chairman abandoned that meeting. This was an isolated omission within an otherwise active pattern of engagement, and should not be treated as representative of the HAD’s overall handling of the matter.

  1. Overall, as DD Te acknowledged in oral evidence, in the specific context of large-

scale renovation work, the powers conferred on the SHYA under the current BMO regime were not adequate to address the difficulties encountered by owners arising from such works [Day 24/25/2]. The HAD lacked a mandate to intervene

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in the substance of owners’ decisions, whether as to the choice of contractor, the assessment of works quality, or the evaluation of professional advice. These were matters for the owners themselves, assisted by the professionals they engaged.

  1. As the Chairman observed, “I think it is a long-lasting and complex problem.

Since it is a private property, that’s why I can understand the position of the government. It is hard for government to make the decision on their behalf” [Day 24/29/24 – 30/3]. The Chairman further observed that “the residents do not have such subject knowledge. That’s why when they participate in the process, it will be very difficult” [Day 24/30/11–14] and identified the need for “more consultation or assistance so that they can understand better before they make the decision” [Day 24/31/6–9].

  1. The Government respectfully agrees with these observations and submits that

they identify the core challenge that the post-fire reform measures are designed to address: how to provide meaningful support and safeguards for owners facing complex decisions about large-scale renovation without overriding the foundational principle of private ownership and owners’ right to determine their own building management affairs.

  1. It was also observed by Member Chan that the OC system itself may be

structurally incapable of handling large-scale renovation and suggested greater reliance on property management companies, noting: “If the property management companies are treating the OC as an IO, it will be very different because the owners do not have to share this kind of legal responsibilities” [Day 24/32-35]. The Government notes this observation and submits that it reinforces the case for the reform measures described below, which include enhanced roles and accountability for licensed PMCs in the process.

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studies to be conducted, the Building Management (Amendment) Ordinance 2024, which came into effect in July 2025, represents a significant legislative advance in addressing the vulnerabilities exposed by the WFC experience. The Amendment Ordinance introduces defined categories for high-value procurement (Type 1, Type 2, and large-scale maintenance procurements) with corresponding tendering and declaration of interests and connections requirements. For large- scale maintenance procurement specifically, the Amendment Ordinance introduces a new “voting-in-person” threshold requiring that at least 5% of owners or 100 owners (whichever is less) cast their vote personally at the meeting494 [WS1/493; Day 24/38/22-39/15] [G5/2742]. This aims to encourage more owners to personally participate in owners’ meetings concerning large-scale maintenance procurement, thereby strengthening the protection of owners’ rights.

which have been the subject of consultation with the Legislative Council Panel on Home Affairs, Culture and Sports in February 2026 [G5/2738-2757]. These proposed amendments are as follows. 1104.1. First, in relation to decisions on large-scale maintenance works and high-value procurement, the HAD proposes to impose higher attendance requirements and voting thresholds. For Type 2 high-value procurement, it is proposed to impose a “voting-in-person” threshold requiring 5% of the owners or 100 owners (whichever is the lesser) to attend and vote in person. For large-scale maintenance procurement, it is proposed to introduce a tiered system for quorum and voting-in-person thresholds, with projects of higher per-owner cost attracting correspondingly higher thresholds. To align with the features of the enhanced Smart Tender of the URA, 494 TE Chi Wang 1st WS §§26-29

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corresponding amendments would be made to the procurement-related provisions of the BMO to allow exemptions for projects for which the URA conducts tenders on behalf of owners. It is further proposed that a briefing session shall be convened seven days prior to the owners’ meeting for the large-scale maintenance procurement resolution, allowing owners to fully understand the details of the project [G5/2742-2743]. 1104.2. Second, in relation to proxy instruments, the HAD proposes enhancing transparency through the following initiatives: imposing a ceiling on the number of proxy instruments a person may hold (for buildings with 50 or fewer units, a person may obtain only one proxy instrument; for buildings with more than 50 units, the number shall not exceed 2% of the total number of owners or 20 instruments, whichever is the lesser); requiring the public display within the building of a list of units whose owners have signed proxy instruments, with all instruments made available for inspection by owners prior to and at the owners’ meetings concerned; adding a section to the relevant proxy instruments for meetings concerning large-scale maintenance procurement to allow owners to voluntarily specify their voting instructions to their proxies; and adding a “declaration” section to the form of proxy instrument to explicitly require the owner to confirm that the meeting agenda has been noted and clearly state that making a false instrument constitutes a criminal offence and the associated penalties [G5/2743] . 1104.3. Third, in relation to declaration of interests, the HAD proposes that OCs be required to provide the works consultants and the contractors with designated declaration forms to disclose any conflict of interest between the two parties, with such declarations to be made publicly available to all owners. In cases where the declaration is refused, such refusal must also be

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disclosed to the owners. Any false declaration shall constitute a criminal offence [G5/2744]. 1104.4. Fourth, in relation to meeting procedures, the HAD proposes to clarify the arrangements for convening owners’ meetings, agenda setting, cancelling, postponing or suspending meetings. Specifically: where the Chairman of the MC refuses to convene an owners’ meeting at the request of 5% of the owners, it is proposed to empower 10% of owners to apply to the SHYA for the appointment of a specified person (e.g. an owner, a licensed PMC or a PMP) to convene the meeting on their behalf; the Chairman would be prohibited from making changes to the issued agenda without reasonable cause; if the Chairman cancels a meeting without reasonable grounds, 10% of owners may apply to the SHYA for the appointment of a specified person to reschedule and chair the meeting; unless there are reasonable grounds, the Chairman cannot alone decide to postpone or suspend a meeting after it has commenced, with any such decision to be put to a vote by the owners present; and in the event of handling an emergency, the notice period for convening an MC meeting or owners’ meeting may be shortened to at least 3 hours or 12 hours respectively [G5/2744-2745]. 1104.5. Fifth, in relation to the powers of the SHYA, it is proposed that in special circumstances where the MC cannot function normally or fails to handle the affairs of the OC (e.g. when all positions in the MC are vacant, or when all MC members cannot be contacted within a reasonable period), the SHYA should be granted powers to intervene and provide assistance. For example, upon application by 10% of the owners, the SHYA would have the power to appoint a specified person to assist in convening an owners' meeting to dissolve the current MC and re-elect a new MC. In

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conjunction with these proposals, a statutory appeal board (building management) would be established; if owners object to the decision of the SHYA, they may lodge an appeal, and any decision rendered on appeal shall be final [G5/2745].

  1. The Government consulted the Legislative Council Panel on Home Affairs,

Culture and Sports on these proposed amendments in February 2026 and has commenced consultations with the property management sector. A public consultation is planned for mid-2026, which will include collecting district views through the Working Groups on Building Management under the District Councils [G5/2748]. The Government will strive to submit the amendment bill to the Legislative Council for scrutiny as soon as practicable, with a view to further strengthening the legal framework (Table of Improvement Measures, Item F2).

  1. Of particular note is the proposal to empower the SHYA to direct a PMC to

convene a meeting where the OC chairman refuses to do so. DD Te stated: “We proposed to empower the authority to, upon receipt of 5 per cent owners’ request, identify a property management committee to convene a meeting if the OC chairman is not willing to organise such a meeting. That’s the proposed way forward” [Day 24/13/1-20]. He emphasised that the SHYA would assist in convening the meeting but would not participate in the decision-making process.

  1. The HAD is further committed to enhancing inter-departmental collaboration and

leveraging its role in liaising closely with OCs. Subject to the agreement of other relevant departments and institutions involved in building repairs and maintenance, the HAD stands ready to participate in joint initiatives for large- scale building maintenance and renovation works to facilitate communication and coordination between government departments and OCs on both regular and ad

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hoc bases495 [WS1/494]. DD Te confirmed his agreement with the Chairman’s suggestion that the HAD consider taking the lead in coordinating different organs to offer assistance to residents: “I completely agree with the chairman. There are a lot of cases we need to follow up after the fire. We have been working with the Development Bureau, also the URA. I think we are also engaging Hong Kong Institute of Surveyors. As an industry body, I hope they can offer some comments about how the cases shall be handled” [Day 24/31/16-23].

  1. The HAD’s directions for reform, addressing the proxy system, the voting-in-

person threshold, the chairman’s meeting-convening power, and the inter- departmental coordination role, represent a considered and proportionate response to the systemic issues revealed by the WFC experience. The Government will respond positively and substantively to any further recommendations the Committee may make in this area, and respectfully invites the Committee to note that the legislative and administrative reform process is already substantially advanced.

495 TE Chi Wang 1st WS §30

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V. IMPROVEMENT MEASURES (RELEVANT TO TOR 2) PROPOSED BY THE GOVERNMENT AS A WHOLE

  1. The systemic issues identified under ToR 2, encompassing bid-rigging, bribery,

proxy manipulation, conflicts of interest and PMC failures in the building maintenance sector, require a coordinated, multi-agency response. The Government has already taken concrete steps across these domains, and further measures are in progress.

  1. In the area of tendering and procurement reform, DEVB, in collaboration with

the URA, is preparing to launch an enhanced version of Smart Tender to assist OCs and owners in engaging consultants and contractors from pre-qualified lists to be established. A total of $300 million has been allocated to the URA for this purpose. The enhanced Smart Tender will incorporate more rigorous pre- qualified lists requiring consultants and contractors to pass background checks by the Police and ICAC before being eligible to participate in tendering; URA oversight of the tendering and tender evaluation processes; and, for buildings applying for government maintenance subsidies, URA will require consultants and contractors to report at critical project junctures so that URA may offer independent advice to owners. The Government aims to roll out the enhanced Smart Tender in the fourth quarter of 2026. In addition, DEVB is reviewing how to strengthen oversight of the performance of inspection consultants, supervision consultants, and contractors through legislative and administrative measures (Table of Improvement Measures, Item F1).

  1. In the area of building management legislation, the Home and Youth Affairs

Bureau is taking forward the next phase of amendments to the BMO. The five proposed amendment directions cover: raising the quorum and voting thresholds for decisions on large-scale maintenance works and high-value procurement; enhancing the handling of proxy instruments; enhancing the declaration of

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interests mechanism; clarifying meeting procedures; and enhancing the powers of the SHYA. The Government consulted the Legislative Council Panel on Home Affairs, Culture and Sports on the proposed amendments in February 2026 and has commenced consultations with the property management sector. A public consultation is planned for mid-2026, which will include collecting district views through the Working Groups on Building Management under the District Councils (Table of Improvement Measures, Item F2).

  1. In the area of competition law enforcement, as mentioned above, the Competition

Commission has completed preparing an enhanced version of the NCCs for procurers to incorporate into their tender documents and procurement contracts. The enhanced NCC includes adding a clause explicitly stating that violating the NCC may constitute a criminal offence, and introducing additional terms requiring bidders to make a Statutory Declaration affirming the warranties within the NCC. The enhanced NCC is expected to launch soon Moreover, the Commerce and Economic Development Bureau is working closely with the Competition Commission to review the Competition Ordinance from multiple perspectives and consider the need for legislative amendments, taking into account the implementation of the Ordinance to date and the experiences of other jurisdictions, with a view to strengthening deterrence against anti-competitive conduct (Table of Improvement Measures, Item G4).

  1. In the area of strengthening the regulation and supervision of building

professionals, the DEVB and BD are further reviewing the BO to strengthen the registration and disciplinary systems for contractors. Proposals include strengthening the causes for disciplinary actions and the factors for considering registration renewal for registered building professionals and contractors, and clarifying the duties of building inspection and works supervision under the existing large-scale repair works regime with a view to breaking the chain of

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interests between inspection consultants and contractors (Table of Improvement Measures, Item B2(iii)-(iv)).

  1. In the area of industry practice and good governance, the Construction Industry

Council is currently reviewing the practices and operations of the large-scale building maintenance industry, including its subcontracting system. The objective is to review and enhance the conduct and integrity of the sector, as well as to strengthen safety awareness and training for both management personnel and frontline workers. The Construction Industry Council is formulating a set of Good Practice Guidelines for the large-scale building maintenance industry, which will include recommendations on the subcontracting of such works to promote the healthy development of the construction industry. The Guidelines are expected to be promulgated within 2026 (Table of Improvement Measures, Item G3).

  1. These improvement measures aim at addressing the structural conditions that

permitted organised syndicates to infiltrate the building maintenance procurement process, while preserving the foundational principle that building management decisions are ultimately for the owners to make. The Government will continue to review and act robustly on further measures to address the problems identified by the Committee in due course.

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PART V: ENDING REMARKS W. ENDING REMARKS

  1. 168 lives were lost. SFn Ho gave his life in the service of others. Thousands of

residents were displaced from their homes. The scale of this incident weighs upon the Government as well as the community it serves.

  1. The evidence before the Committee establishes that the professionals and

contractors primarily entrusted with the safety and quality of the WFC renovation works abused the mechanisms designed to protect the public, betrayed the trust and expectations that the Government and regulatory framework placed in them, and through their deliberate wrongdoings and gross negligence caused the fire that took 168 lives.

  1. In the meantime, the Government readily acknowledges the systemic and

operational weaknesses in its own supervisory framework that permitted the abuse by those bearing primary responsibilities to go undetected.

  1. Thus, since the fire, the Government has responded swiftly in reviewing the

measures and practice in a number of crucial areas and took the initiative to introduce improvement measures to address immediately safety concerns. These improvement measures are set out in Section R4 above (and detailed in the table filed for the Government on 15 June 2026). They represent significant changes to the supervisory architecture, the verification mechanisms, the inter-departmental coordination arrangements, the penalty regimes and the technological infrastructure through which the Government oversees building safety.

  1. On top of the improvement measures already implemented or soon to be

implemented, the Government is fully aware that, subject to the Committee’s recommendations to become available in due course, there will be further efforts

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made on reviewing and introducing improvement measures in the major policy areas covering at least the MBIS, MWCS and establishment of concrete joint efforts in handling enquiries and complaints arising from or generally in connection with large-scale renovation works. The Government is committed to completing and implementing these reforms with the urgency that the expectations of the public demand.

  1. The Government respectfully invites the Committee to make such findings and

recommendations on the path forward as it considers appropriate in light of the evidence. The Government pledges to respond positively, substantively and expeditiously to those recommendations, and to ensure that the system is made resilient against the kind of organised abuse that resulted in this fire. Dated 7 July 2026. Jenkin Suen S.C. Calvin Cheuk S.C. Michael Lok Charlie Liu Counsel for the Relevant Bureaux and Departments of the Government

FD06225 | 2025_港澳台_香港大埔宏福苑-特别重大火灾事故调查报告(政府结案陈词摘要).pdf

分类:06_境外及港澳台调查报告 | 年份:2025 | 地域:香港 | 严重程度:特别重大 | 场所: | 起火原因:燃气/爆炸;焊接/动火 | 来源格式:pdf

就大埔宏福苑火災成立的獨立委員會 政府相關決策局與部門總結陳詞綱要 註:政府總結陳詞以英文書寫。此文件為政府總結陳詞的中文版綱要,以 求方便公眾人士理解。由於篇幅所限,本綱要只是概述政府總結陳詞的重 點,當中如與英文版內容有任何歧義,應以英文版為準。

I. 引言 1. 2025 年11 月26 日,大埔宏福苑發生嚴重火災。宏福苑為居者有其 屋計劃屋苑(「居屋屋苑」),由八幢於1983 年落成的高層住宅大 廈組成。事發時,所有八幢大廈正同時進行外牆維修及翻新工程, 整幢大廈由地面至天台均被竹棚及保護網包圍。 2. 大火持續焚燒約43 小時,奪去168 條人命(包括一名消防人員—— 消防隊目何偉豪),79 人受傷,逾100 人獲消防處救出。在行動高 峰期,共出動174 輛消防車、47 輛救護車及989 名消防人員,為消 防處歷來最大規模的部署。 3. 火警於下午2 時51 分首次接報,報案人稱宏昌閣外牆棚架起火並發 生爆炸。根據現有證據,火源位於宏昌閣104及105 室外的平台。火 勢以極其迅速的速度蔓延——在首輛消防車抵達後約20 分鐘內,火 勢已由起火點蔓延至宏昌閣多個外牆面及附近地面,並波及宏泰閣。 至事件結束時,共7 幢大廈遭波及。 4. 政府迅速成立三個跨政策局專責小組協調善後工作: (1) 由政務司司長領導的調查及規管工作組,負責統籌和協調技術 及規管層面的調查,以及制定改善措施以強化現有規管制度。 跨部門火警調查專責小組(「專責小組」)亦在調查及規管工

-2- 作組下成立,由消防處、警務處、屋宇署、機電工程署、房屋 局轄下的獨立審查組(「ICU」)、勞工處、政府化驗所及獨 立消防工程專家組成,負責調查大火成因。 (2) 由政務司副司長領導的緊急支援及募捐工作組,負責即時財政 援助、社會福利及社區支援,包括成立「大埔宏福苑援助基 金」、發放多項補助、作出多項寬免,以及透過「一戶一社工」 安排為每戶居民提供一站式支援服務; (3) 由財政司副司長領導的應急住宿安排工作組,處理數以千計居 民的臨時住宿安排,包括安排青年旅舍、營地、酒店房間、過 渡性房屋及房協單位等。 II. 成立獨立委員會 5. 行政長官於2025 年12 月2 日宣布會就大埔宏福苑火災成立的獨立委 員會(「獨立委員會」),並於12 月12 日宣布獨立委員會正式成 立,目標於九個月內完成工作。獨立委員會由現任高等法院法官出 任主席,在行政長官授權下運作。 6. 獨立委員會的職權範圍涵蓋以下四個方面: (1) 職權範圍(一):就大埔宏福苑起火、火勢迅速蔓延和造成的 人命傷亡及財產損毀,審視 – 成因和導致火災發生的情由;大 廈配置的消防裝置及設備,及其有效運作的監督和責任問題; 有關的樓宇維修工程的施工安全要求、標準、監督和日常維護 制度是否足夠;針對樓宇維修工程,現行安全標準的用料清單 是否全面,有關的驗證和檢測制度是否有效;各環節的監管人

-3- 員(包括政府部門人員、授權負責的專業人士及承建商等)的 角色和責任承擔;和上述問題相關的責任。 (2) 職權範圍(二):針對大型樓宇維修工程,審視 – 有關工程各 環節有否不適當的相連利益、角色衝突、不當的合謀串連等系 統性問題;及有關工程有否涉貪圍標,違規招標的問題。 (3) 職權範圍(三):就上述兩項事宜,檢視現行相關法律的規管 及懲罰是否足夠。 (4) 職權範圍(四):就上述(1)至(3)的事宜,提出建議。 7. 政府全力配合獨立委員會工作。自獨立委員會開始運作以來,政府 部門積極回應獨立委員會法律團隊所發出的信函和要求,並主動向 獨立委員會提交與委員會職權範圍相關的文件、資料及證人供詞。 在聽證會期間,來自六個政府部門及專責小組的31名證人於13個聆 訊日出庭作供。獨立委員會共接獲近百萬份文件,數據總量超過 1TB。 III. 獨立委員會如何處理證據及作出事實裁斷 8. 獨立委員會的調查目的為查明事實真相並提出建議,以防止同類事 件再次發生,而非裁定任何一方的法律責任。 9. 獨立委員會已於27 個聆訊日進行公開聽證,期間73 名事實證人及7 名專家/專責小組證人出庭作供。 10. 就未有出席聆訊或提供證供的涉事方,獨立委員會有權根據現有證 據的整體情況,按照常理作出事實裁斷及推論(包括不利的事實裁 斷及推論)。舉證準則方面,無任何一方承擔正式舉證責任。一般

-4- 適用民事舉證準則(即相對可能性的衡量)。就嚴重性較高的事實 裁斷,獨立委員會可考慮所需證據的說服力是否與指控的嚴重程度 相稱。就成因判斷,獨立委員會亦可考慮運用常理區分「真正、實 質、直接或有效的原因」與較為間接的背景條件。 IV. 政府的案情概要 (一)本港樓宇維修保養工程的監管架構及其演變 11. 香港樓宇維修保養工程的監管架構建基於專業人士自我監管的模式, 並以法定責任、註冊制度及監督機制為骨幹。此模式的基礎在於政 府對建築業專業人士所寄予的信任和信心。 12. 此模式自上世紀九十年代經歷多年來的演變,並在特區政府成立後 六屆任期逐步發展。在宏福苑大火之前,業界、立法會及公眾多年 來一直呼籲精簡監管程序、以降低業主負擔。樓宇失修的問題亦存 在已久,舊樓欠缺妥善維修保養,會對居民和普羅大眾構成潛在威 脅。 因應上述情況,政府於2010 年實施小型工程監管制度(「小型 工程監管制度」),並於2012 年實施強制驗樓計劃(「強制驗樓計 劃」)。有關制度均經立法會詳細審議,旨在為業主提供合法、簡 易、安全及便捷的途徑進行小型工程維修保養樓宇,並依靠註冊專 業人士確保工程的安全和質素。 13. 有關制度的核心設計,是將工程安全及質素的首要責任,明確施加 在獲業主委聘的註冊專業人士及承建商。政府則制定標準、維持註 冊名冊、進行審核抽查及巡查、處理投訴及查詢,並在發現違規時 採取執法行動。

-5- 14. 現行制度的前提是該等專業人士具備所需的專業知識及操守、並受 相關的專業操守守則約束、其資歷及聲譽均受制約,從而令政府及 公眾有合理期望及依賴他們遵守相關法律及規管要求。宏福苑大火 前就現行監管強度及精簡監管程序、降低業主負擔等之間的考量, 反映了多年制度發展過程中逐步形成的政策取捨及公眾利益的平衡。 (二)宏福苑涉及的系統性違規為是次大火的直接成因 15. 宏福苑維修工程造價約為3.36 億港元,由持有《建築物條例》(第 123章)(「《建築物條例》」)下法定責任的註冊專業人士及註冊 承建商負責執行。證據清楚顯示,若非負責宏福苑維修工程的專業 人士及承建商的一連串蓄意欺詐、合謀串連、疏忽及違法濫用行為, 是次大火不會發生。 16. 宏業建築工程有限公司(「宏業」)作為主承建商:蓄意購買及使 用未經阻燃認證的棚網以牟取更高利潤,並提供疑為偽造的測試證 書及在巡查前選擇性更換棚網以欺騙監管機構;大規模及長期使用 可燃發泡膠板封蓋窗戶,違反其向相關政府人員所作的明確陳述; 指示並允許在走火樓梯每隔約五層開設「生口」損害逃生通道;指 示非註冊消防裝置承辦商排放消防水缸,導致控制消防栓/喉轆系 統及火警警報系統的主電源開關被關閉;以及未能有效禁止工地吸 煙及清除可燃廢料。 17. 鴻毅建築師事務有限公司(「鴻毅」)及其註冊檢驗人員吳躍:完 全沒有履行監督職責,證據顯示並無就任何一項火災促成因素進行 任何真正或有效的監督。

-6- 18. 中華發展工程有限公司(「中華發展」,一間註冊消防裝置承辦 商):從未到訪現場、從未獨立評估關閉消防裝置的需要及後果、 僅作為「橡皮圖章」提交關閉通知書(「SDN」),令消防處無從 得知火警警報系統同時失效的事實。 19. 宏泰消防工程有限公司(「宏泰消防」,負責年檢的註冊消防裝置 承辦商):於2025 年10 月及11 月進行維修工作時發現消防水缸已 清空且主電源開關已被關閉,卻未有通知消防處或聯絡中華發展跟 進。 20. 置邦興業有限公司(「置邦」,持牌物業管理公司):發出工作指 示讓其非持牌電工操作消防裝置(屬違法行為)、未能協調兩間同 時受聘的消防裝置承辦商、對居民持續投訴僅扮演「傳話人」角色。 21. 是次系統性濫用有兩個顯著特點:其一為涉及的財務誘因規模巨大 (工程造價約3.36 億港元),遠超違規成本及被處分的風險;其二 為濫用行為的共謀性質,當本應互相監督的專業人士選擇合謀串連, 整個相互制衡的機制便告失效,導致有關違法行為及濫用難以被揭 示。 (三)特區政府已採取的改善措施 22. 政府承認現行規管及監督架構需要在監管強度及精簡監管程序之間 取得適當平衡,並已於火災後迅速採取全面的改善措施。相關改善 措施涵蓋消防裝置監管、建築物料安全、強制驗樓計劃及小型工程 監管制度、建築專業人士監管、跨部門溝通協調、工地安全管理及 科技應用等範疇(見下文第XII 部分)。

-7- V. 大埔宏福苑及大火的背景 23. 宏福苑位於新界大埔,共有約1,984 個單位,按2021 年人口普查約 有4,600 名居民,當中超過三分之一(約1,700 人)年齡在65 歲或以 上。每幢大廈31 層,設有兩組交叉走向的樓梯(「鉸剪梯」)作為 走火通道。大廈設計的關鍵特徵為兩翼之間的垂直「內角」(re- entrant),由一樓延伸至天台。 24. 宏福苑由隸屬房屋局常任秘書長辦公室的ICU 在屋宇署署長的授權 下進行《建築物條例》下的法定監管,此授權安排自1990 年代初沿 用至今逾三十年。 25. 宏福苑於2014 年被選定為強制驗樓計劃的目標樓宇。2019 年1 月, 鴻毅獲委任為檢驗顧問。維修工程主要依據小型工程監管制度進行, 無須事先取得建築事務監督批准。工程於2024 年7 月展開。 26. 在宏福苑大火之前,2023 年海員俱樂部大火及2025 年10 月華懋大 廈大火均涉及棚架高層建築物起火。屋宇署及ICU 在上述事件後曾 發出通告函件及/或提醒信函,要求建築專業人士確保棚網阻燃性能 符合要求。 VI. 各有關範圍下持份者的角色及責任 27. 宏福苑大火涉及多個監管範疇,各由不同法例規管,政府部門、業 主、業界及其他持份者在各範疇中各司其職、相輔相成。在部分範 疇中,政府的角色屬促進及推動性質(如私人建築物管理及業主委 聘專業人士);在其他範疇中,政府則擔當監督角色(如消防風險 管理、施工物料規管及職業安全)。

-8- 28. 下表概述各範疇的規管架構、政府角色及其他持份者的責任: 範疇 規管架構、政府角色及其他持份者 (1) 私人建 築物的管 理 a. 規管架構:《建築物管理條例》(第344 章) b. 政府角色(促進及推動): 民政事務總署協助業主 立案法團運作、出席業主大會提供建議、轉介投訴 c. 其他持份者: (i) 業主/業主立案法團:承擔管理首 要責任;(ii) 物業管理公司:受聘代為執行日常管理 (2) 消防裝 置及設備 的保養 a. 規管架構:《消防條例》(第95 章)及其附屬法 例 b. 政府角色(促進及推動): 消防處監察;維持註冊 消防裝置承辦商名冊 c. 其他持份者: (i) 業主/業主立案法團:有法定責任 保持消防裝置有效運作並安排每年檢驗;(ii) 物業管 理公司:按物業管理服務管理局守則監督承辦商工 作;(iii) 承建商、顧問及註冊檢驗人員:負責監督維 修工程期間涉及消防裝置的工作 (3) 業主委 聘專業人 士進行維 修工程 a. 規管架構:《建築物條例》下的強制驗樓計劃及小 型工程監管制度 b. 政府角色(促進及推動): 維持註冊名冊、提供指 引 、抽樣審查、處理投訴及查詢、發現違規時採取執 法行動

-9- c. 其他持份者: (i) 業主/業主立案法團:自主決定委 聘註冊檢驗人員及承建商;(ii) 註冊檢驗人員及承建 商:承擔法定首要責任 (4) 消防風 險管理及 消防裝置 的維護 a. 規管架構:《建築物條例》、《消防條例》及相關 守則 b. 政府角色(監督): 屋宇署/ICU 主要負責被動式 消防安全措施(如逃生通道、防火間隔的設計與建 造);消防處主要負責主動式消防裝置 c. 其他持份者: 註冊檢驗人員、承建商、物業管理公 司及業主各負相關責任 (5) 施工方 法及物料 規管 a. 規管架構:《建築物(建造)規例》等 b. 政府角色(監督): 屋宇署/ICU 透過審核抽查及 投訴處理機制監管 c. 其他持份者: 註冊檢驗人員及承建商:須確保物料 符合標準並採取適當預防措施 (6) 職業安 全及健康 a. 規管架構:《職業安全及健康條例》(第509 章) 及《工廠及工業經營條例》(第59 章)及相關附屬 法例 b. 政府角色(監督): 勞工處以風險為本的突擊巡查 (一至兩個月一次)、執法行動 c. 其他持份者: 承建商(包括總承建商):須在合理 切實可行範圍內確保僱員的工作安全及健康

職權範圍1

-10- VII. 專責小組就大火起因、火勢蔓延及造成重大傷亡因素的調查結果 29. 專責小組由消防處、警務處、屋宇署、機電工程署、ICU、勞工處、 政府化驗所及消防工程專業人士(袁國傑教授)組成。調查參照國 際標準進行,包括現場勘察、實驗室分析、電腦模擬及全尺寸火災 測試(於四川進行)。最終調查報告於2026 年5 月完成。 30. 專責小組的主要結論包括火災最有可能屬意外性質,由一個熱源 (如未熄滅的香煙)點燃宏昌閣104及105室外平台上的可燃物料引 起。急速垂直蔓延受大廈內角的「煙囪效應」驅動。 31. 造成重大傷亡的五個關鍵因素為:(一)火勢迅速蔓延致逃生時間 極短;(二)燃燒中的可燃物塌下堵塞出口;(三)火警警報系統 全數失效;(四)發泡膠板遮蔽居民視線並延誤反應;(五)走火 樓梯的逃生通道因「生口」而失去防護。 32. 獨立委員會委聘的專家(香港理工大學Asif Sohail Usmani 教授及江 黎明教授)與專責小組的專家分別獨立進行研究,在所有重要事項 上得出大致一致的結論:棚網及帆布缺乏阻燃性能是導致火災的重 要因素;若使用阻燃物料,初期火勢或可自行熄滅。 VIII. 由宏昌閣起火至大火被撲滅的發展 33. 主要事件時序如下: 時間 事件 約14:30-14:43 大火起源(閉路電視於14:43 拍到燃燒碎片墜 下)

-11- 14:51 消防通訊中心接獲首個火警報告 14:56 首輛消防車抵達(共12 輛消防車及61 名消防 人員於初段出動) 15:02 升為三級火警(抵達後6 分鐘) 15:20 消防處處長指揮部啟動、增派10 隊搜救隊 15:34 升為四級火警(已部署269 名消防人員,約為 五級火警標準部署的兩倍) 18:22 升為五級火警(已部署718 名消防人員) 22:30 累計出動221 輛消防車及989 名消防人員 2025.11.27 21:31 宣布火勢被圍 2025.11.28 03:15 宣布火勢受控 2025.11.28 10:18 發出「停止」訊息

救火及救援工作面對的困難包括:(一)燃燒中的竹棚塌下堵塞入 口及緊急車輛通道;(二)濃煙及高溫經走火樓梯的「生口」滲入 大廈;(三)消防栓/喉轆系統失效,消防人員須將約80 公斤的便 攜式水泵搬上20 樓以上;(四)史無前例的多座大廈同時外牆起火。

就消防隊目何偉豪殉職一事,根據委員會目前掌握的證據,何消防 隊目原奉命前往宏昌閣2701 室救援,因途中協助輪椅長者而與隊伍 分離,誤入宏泰閣。閉路電視顯示其於15:16 進入宏泰閣。其於 15:22 發出求救訊息,約15:55 被發現倒臥於宏泰閣前的燃燒碎片上。 專責小組認為:何消防隊目留在宏泰閣是為了嘗試協助他人疏散, 展現了非凡的勇氣和崇高的使命感。 IX. 大火起因、火勢蔓延及造成重大傷亡的促成因素 -12- (一)大火起因:工人在宏福苑工地範圍內吸煙 36. 工人在工地範圍內吸煙的情況持續且有充分記錄——居民多次投訴、 物管公司人員親眼目睹、閉路電視拍到工人吸煙、工程會議記錄反 覆提及、宏業自設內部罰則(證明問題嚴重)。起火源頭挖出的瓦 礫中發現煙頭。宏業作為總承建商,對工地安全管理負有首要法定 責任,明知工人吸煙問題持續卻未能有效制止。置邦的跟進僅限於 將投訴轉達宏業,未有採取進一步行動。 37. 就政府部門採取的行動而言,勞工處於2024 年7 月至2025 年11 月 期間進行16 次突擊巡查及1 次突擊監察,頻率高於一般標準。勞工 處在上述巡查及監察行動後沒有就工人吸煙問題採取進一步執法行 動,除因巡查期間未有目擊工人吸煙外,亦受大火前就工地吸煙的 監管框架所限。根據《建築地盤(安全)規例》第53 條,凡任何建 築地盤使用或擬使用易燃液體或涉及火警危險的物質等,勞工處處 長可發出書面「禁止吸煙命令」,禁止在該建築地盤吸煙。按大火 前的監管框架,除受「禁止吸煙命令」規管的建築地盤外,工人於 建築地盤吸煙本身並不違反職安健條例,而這亦反映大火前規管架 構在政策意圖上的結構性設計。就宏福苑而言,宏福苑建築地盤未 有具備發出「禁止吸煙命令」的特定條件,勞工處因此沒有向其發 出「禁止吸煙命令」。因此,工人吸煙本身沒有違反職安健條例, 故勞工處未能採取進一步執法行動。勞工處共發出了三份建築地盤 巡查報告提醒宏業。 (二)火勢蔓延促成因素:使用未經阻燃性能認證的棚架保護網 38. 於2025 年7 月,證據顯示宏業時任董事何建業明確指示供應商購買 非阻燃棚網,且儘管供應商有提出反建議,仍然拒絕購買阻燃棚網。

-13- 2025 年9 月颱風後再次訂購非阻燃棚網。WhatsApp 訊息亦顯示宏業 曾在ICU 巡查前緊急購入115 張阻燃棚網作選擇性替換。事後政府 化驗所對從宏昌閣(起火大廈)取得的5 個棚網樣本進行測試,其 中4 個(80%)的殘燃時間超過GB 5725-2009 標準下的4 秒門檻。 39. 《建築物(建造)規例》第3 及16 條要求所有用於建築工程的物料 須適合其預定用途並經認可測試,且須採取適當預防措施。註冊檢 驗人員在《建築物條例》第30D 條下負有法定責任,須確保修葺物 料符合所有相關條例的要求。相關的作業備考及通告函件亦要求所 有在外牆裝設的保護網應具備適當的阻燃特性,並符合認可標準。 宏業蓄意使用非阻燃棚網並提供不可靠的測試證書以掩飾違規;鴻 毅/吳躍完全沒有履行其監督職責,沒有採取任何步驟核實棚網的阻 燃性能是否符合屋宇署通告函件及勞工處工作守則中明確列出的認 可標準。 40. 就政府部門採取的行動而言,勞工處於2024 年7 月主動要求宏業提 供阻燃測試證書並獲提供(事後發現為不可靠文件)。ICU 進行三 次涉及棚網快速燃燒測試的巡查(2024 年10 月28 日、11 月18 日及 2025 年10 月28 日),共於17 個隨機抽選地點進行測試。ICU 於華 懋大廈火災後亦主動向五個屋苑的註冊檢驗人員發出提醒電郵。 41. 惟面對承建商通過選擇性更換棚網進行的蓄意欺騙,上述措施未能 發現有關違規行為和濫用。 (三)火勢蔓延促成因素:使用聚氯乙烯泡沫板(發泡膠板)封蓋窗戶作 臨時防護

-14- 42. 2024 年6 月的工程會議記錄顯示,鴻毅曾警告發泡膠板為可燃物質, 宏業仍堅持使用。分包商確認受宏業董事何建業口頭指示以發泡膠 板封蓋所有住戶窗戶。宏業與法團主席的WhatsApp 對話確認宏業知 悉第一期已安裝的發泡膠板不具阻燃性能。 43. 宏業曾向ICU 人員明確表示僅會臨時及小範圍地使用發泡膠板(每 次三層、打鑿完成即拆除),但發泡膠板實際上在全屋苑範圍內大 規模使用超過一年,直至火災發生之日仍然封蓋在窗戶上。宏業向 ICU 人員所作的陳述完全虛假。鴻毅/吳躍作為負責監督工程的顧問 及註冊檢驗人員,亦完全沒有就發泡膠板的廣泛及長期使用提出關 注或採取任何監督行動。 44. 就政府部門採取的行動而言,ICU 於2024 年9 月至11 月進行三次涉 及發泡膠板的巡查。ICU 接納並倚賴了宏業的陳述,因此未有進一 步跟進。 (四)火勢蔓延促成因素:使用其他沒有阻燃性能的建築物料(尤其包括 塑料帆布) 45. 政府化驗所分析確認,在宏福苑使用的兩類帆布(主要由聚乙烯或 聚乙烯與聚丙烯的混合物製成)比棚網更易持續燃燒,並產生燃燒 液滴。專責小組的火災測試證實,非阻燃帆布令內角區域的小火發 展成為能消耗幾乎所有可燃物的大範圍猛烈火災。 46. 《建築物(建造)規例》第3 及16 條要求所有用於建築工程的物料 須適合其預定用途並經認可測試,且須採取適當預防措施。相關的 作業備考及通告函件亦要求所有在外牆裝設的塑膠帆布應具備適當 的阻燃特性,並符合認可標準。宏業及鴻毅/吳躍作為註冊承建商及

-15- 註冊檢驗人員,負有確保所有建築物料符合相關標準的首要法定責 任。 47. 由於在火災前並未收到針對塑料帆布阻燃性能的投訴或查詢,政府 相關部門未有就此具體採取行動。 (五)造成重大傷亡促成因素:因在走火樓梯間開設「生口」導致逃生途 徑失去安全防護 48. 宏業在所有八幢大廈的走火樓梯約每隔五層開設或允許開設「生 口」,以可燃木板或鋁塑板取代窗戶,讓工人進出外牆棚架。宏泰 閣38 名在梯間及公共地方罹難者中,28 人在梯間被發現。火災測試 證實木板在4 分40 秒內被點燃,而防火玻璃窗則保持完整並維持較 低的內部溫度。 49. 屋宇署確認在走火樓梯開設「生口」違反多項規定,包括違反《建 築物(建造)規例》第16 條,及《建築物消防安全守則》F5.6(a)條, 該條要求所有逃生途徑必須經常保持暢通無阻。《強制驗樓計劃及 強制驗窗計劃作業守則》明確要求註冊檢驗人員識別及向建築事務 監督報告在出口路線圍封牆或分隔牆、樓層及天花板的無防護開口。 鴻毅/吳躍完全沒有履行此責任。 50. 就政府部門採取的行動而言,勞工處在2025 年2 月巡查時發現棚架 與外牆之間的空隙(工人可能墜落超過2 米),但其關注點在於高 處工作墜落風險而非走火樓梯的「生口」。ICU 對被隨機抽選進行 審核基本檢查的兩份第一類小型工程申請(其中一份涉及F 座的走 火樓梯窗戶更換工程)進行審核時,雖然施工前的照片顯示窗戶已

-16- 被木板或鋁塑板取代,但審核人員將木板或鋁塑板理解為待更換窗 戶的臨時保護措施,因此未有作出查詢或採取相應行動。 (六)造成重大傷亡促成因素:宏福苑各座消防警鐘失效 51. 宏福苑的消防栓/喉轆系統(「FH/HR 系統」)及火警警報系統 (「FAS」)共用一個主電源開關。置邦的電工應宏業的指示,關 閉了所有八幢大廈增壓泵房的主電源開關(以排放消防水缸進行翻 新),同時令FH/HR 系統和FAS 失效。然而,排放消防水缸的技術 操作根本無須關閉主電源開關。 52. 中華發展獲宏業聘用提交SDN,但從未到訪現場、從未評估關閉的 需要或後果、從未親自進行關閉。其提交的SDN 僅勾選FH/HR 系統 (未有勾選FAS),令消防處不知悉FAS 同時失效。中華發展的董 事在口頭證供中承認其僅為「橡皮圖章」,並承認違反了消防處通 函中的全部責任。 53. 宏業明知自身非註冊消防裝置承辦商,仍指示非註冊承辦商進行消 防水缸維修工程,並聘用中華發展僅作為提交文件的橡皮圖章。 54. 宏泰消防於2025 年10 月16 日發現消防水缸已清空,於11 月19 日 發現主電源開關已被關閉(即知悉FAS 已停止運作,可能已超過一 個月),但未有通知消防處、未有向中華發展查詢,亦未有要求恢 復電源以進行測試,僅按指示繼續維修工作。 55. 置邦發出工作指示讓非持牌人員操作消防裝置,未能協調兩間承辦 商。

-17- 56. 就政府部門採取的行動而言,消防處接獲中華發展提交的SDN 後, 按既定程序進行風險評估及巡查(涉及宏福苑期間共26 次視察/巡 查)。惟事前的SDN 制度屬通報性質而非審批機制,並依賴承辦商 如實申報。 X. 救火及救援工作的成效檢視 57. 是次救火及救援工作在前所未有的條件下專業地進行。行動規模為 消防處歷來之最,所有347 個報告求助地點及所有八幢大廈其餘單 位均獲消防人員到場處理,行動持續43 小時。 58. 事後回顧顯示若干範疇的操作決定及制度安排,在制度及操作層面 或有改善空間。消防處已成立「特大型火警事故策略督導委員會」, 全面檢討滅火及救援策略、裝備及科技應用。但與此同時,獨立委 員會的專家亦確認,消防處在現場實際上可採取的額外行動極為有 限,不足以實質改變結果。 59. 就先集中人手控制火勢而言,消防處在大火初段決定集中資源於宏 昌閣及宏泰閣滅火,同時警方協助附近範圍的疏散。此乃消防處與 警方之間行之有效的協作安排。當時雖可選擇抽調人手進入其他大 廈作疏散,惟此決定受制於火勢蔓延速度及大廈出入口可能被燃燒 棚架及雜物堵塞等安全考慮。 60. 就火警升級機制而言,各次升級決定均顯示實際部署大幅超前於正 式火警級別。升級為三級時已出動約80%的三級標準部署量;升為 四級時已出動約五級標準的兩倍。正式的火警級別並非限制資源調 配的因素。各崗位的指揮官可隨時直接透過消防通訊中心要求增派 資源,且事實上已經如此行動。

-18- 61. 就999 電話處理而言,消防通訊中心(經設立支援中心後)平均在 約一分鐘內接聽轉介電話,並進行約1,500 通回撥電話,為被困居民 提供持續的安全指引及情況更新。獨立委員會主席在聽證會中亦特 別肯定回撥機制的成效。另外,警方與消防處之間以傳真傳送部份 資訊的做法不適合處理大規模事故,正進行聯合檢討以優化信息交 流機制。 62. 就緊急警示系統而言,該系統曾被考慮但未使用,原因為當時系統 未配置作地區性使用,且缺乏公眾教育。政府已啟動將系統配置為 地區性使用的工作,並正設計相關公眾教育計劃。 63. 就消防人員安全而言,消防員定位系統在高於約23 樓的高層建築物 中具有無法接收信號的限制。新的消防員定位系統已在採購中,測 試確認可在23 樓成功接收信號。新呼吸器系統已於2026 年1 月投入 使用,具備隊員間空氣共享功能及直接連接手提無線電的通訊系統。 64. 就其他公眾質疑而言,政府亦在書面總結陳詞中逐一回應,包括: 不同消防隊伍之間的協調問題、應否先拆除竹棚(操作上不可行、 甚至會適得其反)、應否使用直升機灑水、以及應否接受內地額外 消防人手。 XI. 各相關專業人士及非政府方的系統性機制濫用 65. 是次火災並非單一疏忽或單一制度弱點的結果,而是多名持份者在 一段時間內持續作出多方面的蓄意違法行為所致。負有首要責任的 專業人士及其他私營持份者蓄意欺瞞和敷衍塞責。每一項促成因素, 均可追溯至該等持份者的作為或不作為。更甚者,該等違法行為刻 意規避及破壞現有制度框架,嚴重阻礙及削弱政府的監管職能。

-19- XII. 監管架構的弱點及已推行/即將推行的改善措施 66. 就制度歷史來由與發展而言,相關監管架構(包括消防裝置規管自 1960 年代起發展、屋宇署與ICU 的授權安排自1992 年回歸前起沿 用、小型工程監管制度及強制驗樓計劃分別於2010 年及2012 年實 施)均經審慎制定、大部分亦經立法會審議,反映有關政策乃於制 定之時已在規管監督與專業自治之間取得平衡,屬深思熟慮的政策 決定。政策始終為人所採用並加以執行,相關政策之原意及機制在 專業人士及其他私營持份者依法、適當地採用及執行的情況下並無 根本問題、政府部門之間有所分工亦無根本問題;整體而言,弱點 主要在於面對蓄意合謀或完全怠忽職守之情況時,有關機制不足以 揭示有關違法行為及濫用的情況。 67. 經總結,政府在書面陳詞中點明了現行制度存在的五個系統性弱點: (1) 制度設計依賴專業人士的操守和能力,惟在面對蓄意合謀或完 全怠忽職守之情況時,不足以揭示有關違法行為及濫用的情況; (2) 以統計抽樣為基礎的審核機制不足以偵測蓄意和有組織的隱瞞、 有關違法行為及濫用的情況; (3) 程序指引及工作守則存在改善空間; (4) 屋宇署與ICU 之間溝通機制存在弱點; (5) 科技應用存在滯後。 68. 政府自火災後已提出了改善措施(見政府於2026 年6 月15 日提交的 改善措施一覽表),包括以下範疇。

-20- (1) 就消防裝置而言,主要措施包括SDN 由通報改為審批機制 (設60 天上限)、強制電子提交FS251(2026 年7 月1 日生 效)、引入物業管理公司法定管理責任、將註冊消防裝置承辦 商的永久註冊改為續期制、大幅提高罰則、以及接獲SDN 後 須主動檢查其他消防系統。 (2) 就建築物料而言,主要措施包括推出PNRC 85,落實棚網就地 抽樣檢查新制度(規定加密數碼簽署測試報告、上架前取樣檢 驗、隨機實地抽查)、2026 年3 月通告函件明確禁止在外牆或 窗戶使用可燃物料(例如發泡膠板)、以及考慮修訂《建築物 條例》規定指定建築物料需要符合指明的安全標準。 (3) 就強制驗樓計劃及小型工程而言,主要措施包括ICU 引入大型 維修項目至少每四個月一次的工地巡查、工地安全巡查抽選比 例提高至30%、屋宇署加強突擊巡查大型樓宇維修工程地盤 (至少每六個月一次)、以及研究大型維修工程棚架安全相隔 距離要求。 (4) 就專業人士規管而言,主要措施包括檢視《建築物條例》以加 強紀律處分及註冊續期考量、ICU 要求註冊檢驗人員提交定期 現場監督記錄、以及定期與註冊檢驗人員及承建商進行面對面 會議。 (5) 就跨部門溝通而言,主要措施包括ICU 與屋宇署加強溝通機制 (季度會議、指定聯絡橋樑、互派人員借調機制)、ICU 與消 防處建立雙向溝通機制、勞工處與屋宇署及消防處發展聯合巡 查安排、以及消防處優化個案轉介及跟進機制。

-21- (6) 就工地安全而言,主要措施包括全面禁止建築地盤吸煙、以及 修訂工作守則為踢腳板訂定物料要求。 (7) 就科技應用而言,主要措施包括第四代調配系統(100 條線路、 自動同步傳送資訊)、新消防員定位系統、以及電子入場控制 板。 職權範圍2 XIII. 從涉及職權範圍2 的證據所見的系統性議題 69. 競爭事務委員會(「競委會」)、廉政公署(「廉署」)及警方的 證據一致顯示,大型樓宇維修業界的圍標問題相當普遍、屬系統性 且積弊已久。具體手法包括壓低投標(圍標者不投標)、掩護式標 書、輪流圍標、瓜分市場、信息交換、共用資歷及虛構投標。有組 織犯罪集團透過圍標、賄賂、操控委任代表文書及利益衝突等手段 侵蝕樓宇維修採購過程。 70. 宏福苑為競委會2026 年3 月向競爭事務審裁處提出法律程序中的11 個屋苑之一,涉及合約總值估計接近7 億港元。 71. 顧問公司及註冊檢驗人員的角色尤為關鍵——廉署確認在若干調查 個案中,顧問公司委任的註冊檢驗人員實際上只是一個空殼,對項 目幾乎不進行監督,僅為滿足《建築物條例》的法定要求而受聘。 廉署的整體評估為:大型樓宇維修行業在很大程度上建基於信譽制 度,包含固有及明顯的結構性漏洞,形成自我延續的惡性循環。 XIV. 政府及相關部門的角色

-22- 72. 市區重建局(「市建局」)於2016 年推出「招標妥」計劃以減低圍 標風險。在宏福苑的案例中,委聘鴻毅為顧問的招標程序不在「招 標妥」涵蓋範圍內;「招標妥」雖用於2023 年承建商招標程序,但 市建局當時不審核投標分析報告中對宏業的評分是否合理,而是依 賴顧問公司(即鴻毅)。火災後,市建局正開發加強版「招標妥 2.0」,包括經警方及廉署背景審查的預審名單及市建局親自進行標 書審核。 73. 競委會早於2016 年市場研究中已識別大型樓宇維修業界存在的問題, 2022 年起進行五項重大調查,當中包括與警方有組織罪案及三合會 調查科合作,並於2026 年3 月向競爭事務審裁處提出法律程序。競 委會建議的立法改革包括在罰款程序中明確規定民事舉證準則、加 入法定推定條文、增加罰則及取消董事資格年期、以及要求大型招 標使用法定聲明。 74. 廉署在過去三年(2023 至2025 年)接獲239 宗涉及樓宇維修的貪污 投訴,當中220 宗(92%)獲正式調查,137 人被捕。因案件性質隱 秘且涉及有組織犯罪,成功檢控門檻甚高。廉署亦透過早期介入機 制,主動向業主預警風險並阻撓犯罪集團的計劃。 75. 警務處透過「復安居計劃」(RenoSafe),自2013 年起進行宣傳、 教育及預防犯罪工作,至2026 年1 月曾到訪7,100 幢樓宇。警方建 議加強成員之間的信息交流、設立具刑事罰則的專門法例,以及引 入免罪條款和法定保護舉報人。 76. 民政事務總署在大廈管理方面的角色屬促進及推動性質。其職責範 圍限於《建築物管理條例》下的大廈管理程序事宜,不延伸至監督

-23- 施工工程、物料或消防安全。大埔民政事務處積極處理了44 宗涉及 宏福苑的相關投訴、發出多封勸喻信函、出席多次業主大會並就 《建築物管理條例》的程序提供建議。舉例而言,在2024 年9 月6 日特別業主大會上,當時的法團主席離場企圖終止會議,民政事務 處代表即時介入,向業主說明其在《建築物管理條例》下的權利, 確保會議得以合法繼續進行。 XV. 與職權範圍2 有關已推行/即將推行的改善措施 77. 就招標改革而言,發展局聯同市建局正部署推出加強版「招標妥」 (已批准撥款3 億元),包括推出通過警方及廉署背景審查,更嚴 謹的顧問及承建商「預審名單」,、市建局把關招標和評標工作、 以及要求顧問及承建商在重要工程節點向市建局報告,目標為2026 年第四季推出。 78. 就《建築物管理條例》修訂而言,民政及青年事務局正推進五大修 訂方向:(一)提高大型維修工程及大額採購決定的出席及投票門 檻(包括「親身投票」門檻)及規定在議決大型維修工程的業主大 會舉行前召開簡介會,以確保讓業主充分了解工程詳情;(二)完 善委任代表文書制度(包括設立限制持有代表文書的上限、進一步 增設公開名單張貼已簽署委任代表文書業主的要求、容許委任人自 願註明投票意向、加入聲明條款);(三)完善利益申報制度(包 括顧問及承建商須披露利益衝突、虛假申報屬刑事罪行);(四) 進一步保障業主在業主大會的召開、議程、取消、延期或暫停等會 議程序上的權益及確保法團依法行事(包括賦權民政及青年事務局 局長指派指定人士召開業主大會);(五)加強主管當局權力(在

-24- 特殊情況下介入協助)。上述方向已於2026 年2 月諮詢立法會,公 眾諮詢計劃於2026 年年中進行。 79. 就《競爭條例》(第619 章)檢討而言,商務及經濟發展局正與競 委會合作,從多個角度研究立法修訂需要,以加強對反競爭行為的 阻嚇力。競委會亦已完成制定加強版「非合謀條款」,包括明確指 出違反條款可構成刑事罪行及要求投標者作出法定聲明。 80. 就業界良好作業而言,建造業議會正制定大型樓宇維修業界良好作 業指引,包括就分包制度提出建議,預計於2026 年內公布。 XVI. 總結 81. 是次大火造成的嚴重人命傷亡令政府及整個社會深感沉痛。證據確 立,獲委以首要責任的專業人士及承建商濫用了旨在保障公眾的機 制,辜負了政府及監管架構對他們的信任和期望,並透過蓄意的違 法行為及嚴重疏忽,造成了這場大火。 82. 政府自火災後已迅速採取行動,就多個關鍵範疇檢討措施和做法, 並主動推行改善措施。政府懇請獨立委員會按其認為適當的方式, 根據證據作出事實裁斷及建議。政府承諾對獨立委員會的建議作出 實質的回應,以確保制度能夠抵禦宏福苑所發生的有組織、合謀式 蓄意濫用行為。 於2026 年7 月14 日向就大埔宏福苑火災成立的獨立委員會呈交 孫靖乾 資深大律師 卓元暢 資深大律師 陸栩然 大律師 劉逸冲 大律師 政府相關決策局與部門代表大律師

FD06226 | 2025_港澳台_香港大埔宏福苑-特别重大火灾事故调查报告(梁炳基结案陈词).pdf

分类:06_境外及港澳台调查报告 | 年份:2025 | 地域:香港 | 严重程度:特别重大 | 场所: | 起火原因: | 来源格式:pdf

1 Independent Committee in relation to the fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po

Written Closing Address of Mr Leung Ping Kay

[A/1/ §2]

Bundle A/Page 1/Paragraph 2

[T(C)/D1/2/3]

Chinese Transcript / Day 1 / Page 2 / Line 3

A. Introduction

At the outset, Mr. Leung wishes to express his deepest condolences to the families of those who lost their lives, and his deepest sympathy to all those who suffered injury, loss and distress as a result of this tragic incident.

Of his own volition, Mr. Leung has been willing throughout to assist the Independent Committee (“Committee”) in its search for the truth. It is for that reason that he testified personally before the Committee, and has provided all relevant documents and information within his possession.

By this written closing submission, Mr. Leung seeks to clarify certain matters arising from the live and documentary evidence, as well as to make some observations to hopefully assist the Committee in its fact-finding exercise.

B. Overview

This Committee was established by the Chief Executive to inquire into the matters set out in its Terms of Reference [A1/1-4], including the causes and circumstances of the fire at Wang Fuk Court on 26 November 2025 (the “Fire”), the reasons for its rapid spread, the resulting casualties and property damage, and to make recommendations arising therefrom. Issues concerning the legal liabilities of any person fall outside the Committee’s remit.

Mr. Leung participated in this inquiry in his personal capacity as an involved party. Although he is one of the directors of China Status Development and

2 Engineering Company Limited (“China Status”), he does not represent China Status in these proceedings, nor does he purport to represent any other person who has not participated in this inquiry.

statements: (a) 1st Witness Statement dated 2 March 2026 WS2/1509-1517;

(b) 2nd Witness Statement dated 2 April 2026 WS7/1875-1890; and

(c) 3rd Witness Statement dated 21 May 2026 WS21/2359-2361.

He also attended the evidential hearing and gave oral evidence before the Committee on 8 April 2026 [T(C)/D9].

Various experts have provided statements, reports and oral evidence to assist the Committee. Among them, the following are relevant to the issues relating to Mr. Leung. In particular:

(a) The Inter-Departmental Fire Investigation Task Force’s (“IFITF”) Expert Report (“IFITF’s Report”) published in May 2026 [ER1]; and

(b) the Expert Report dated 15 June 2026 (“IC’s Report”) by Prof. Asif Sohail Usmani and Prof. Jiang Liming (collectively the “IC Experts”), who were appointed by the Committee as experts [ER3]; and

(c) Mr. YIU Men-yeung’s oral evidence [T(C)/D26].

3 C. Issues relating to Mr. Leung

relating to Mr. Leung may be summarised as follows: (a) Whether China Status assumed any supervisory role in relation to the relevant fire service works, or merely assisted in the submission of the relevant documents to the Fire Services Department (“FSD”) (“Issue (a)”);

(b) Whether, under the applicable statutory and regulatory regime, the shutdown of the relevant fire service installations could properly be effected by a person other than the Registered Fire Service Installation Contractor (“RFSIC”) responsible for the shutdown applications (“Issue (b)”); and

(c) Whether China Status properly assessed the necessity for each application to extend the shutdown of the relevant fire service installations, particularly where the shutdown continued for a prolonged period (“Issue (c)”).

questioned Mr. Leung regarding his responsibility for the failure of the fire alarm system on the day of the incident [T(C)/D9/97]. Accordingly, these submissions also address: (d) The role of the fire alarm system in the Fire (“Issue (d)”).

observations on the above four issues, with a view to assisting the Committee’s fact-finding exercise. 4 D. Mr. Leung’s Case

Mr. Leung’s evidence is straightforward. He accepts that neither he nor, to his knowledge, any employee of China Status attended Wang Fuk Court to inspect the relevant fire service installations before the relevant SDN (“Shut Down Notice”) applications were submitted [WS2/1517/48]. However, that was not because he intended to circumvent, or assist any other person to circumvent, the applicable legal requirements.

Mr. Leung’s evidence is that he acted throughout in the honest belief that Prestige Construction & Engineering Co. Limited (宏業建築工程有限公司) (“PC&E”) was itself an RFSIC and that the necessary site inspections would be carried out by PC&E or those acting on its behalf before China Status submitted the relevant SDN applications [WS7/1884-1885/§§53-55].

E. Factual Background

Before addressing the four issues identified in Section C above, it would be beneficial to first consider the relevant factual background. In particular, it is necessary to understand the relationship between Mr. Leung and China Status, and between China Status and PC&E, in order to place the relevant events in their proper context.

Mr. Leung joined China Status in or around September 2014. China Status is an RFSIC registered under both Class 1 and Class 2 [WS7/1876/§7]. Mr. Leung is one of its directors and his duties include responsibility for the company’s administrative matters, including the preparation and submission of tenders and quotations, planning works under the Fire Safety (Buildings) Ordinance (Cap. 572), applying for SDNs, liaising with government departments and attending site inspections for quotation purposes [WS7/1877/§§11-12]. He is also an authorised signatory of China Status [WS7/1878/§13].

5

  1. Mr. Leung first became acquainted with PC&E whilst employed by his

previous employer, Marvel Fire Engineering Co. Ltd., in the course of a large- scale project where PC&E was responsible for the building works and Marvel Fire Engineering Co. Ltd. was responsible for the fire service installations [WS7/1881/§33]. From around 2017 onwards, Mr. Leung continued to have regular dealings with Gordon Ho, director of PC&E, in connection with projects requiring fire service installation works [WS7/1881/§§34-35]. Over the years, Mr. Leung and PC&E had established a good working relationship.

On a number of occasions, Mr. Leung attended tender interviews together with Gordon Ho. During those meetings, Mr. Leung understood PC&E to be undertaking projects involving fire service installation works, and Gordon always represented “Prestige” (“宏業”) as an RFSIC [WS7/1882/§39].

In relation to the project at Wang Fuk Court, China Status’s involvement included the provision of additional fire extinguishers [WS2/1509/§4] and the submission of the relevant SDN applications in connection with the repair of the fire service water tanks [WS7/1883/§§43-46]. China Status, in its line of business, did not itself carry out the concrete water tank repair works.

F. Analysis: Issues (a) - (c)

The first three issues identified in Section C overlap substantially and may conveniently be considered together. In substance, they give rise to two principal questions.

First, what was the legal and practical position concerning the division of responsibilities in relation to fire service installation works?

Secondly, what was China Status’s supervisory role, based on Mr. Leung’s knowledge, at the Wang Fuk Court project?

6 F1. Division of Responsibilities in Fire Service Installation Works

At the outset, it is important to clarify Mr. Leung’s position. Mr. Leung has never suggested that fire service installation works may be carried out without the involvement of an RFSIC. His evidence is that such works must either be carried out or supervised by an RFSIC [WS2/1515/§36; T(C)/D9/94/17-23]. He does not suggest that an RFSIC who signs and submits the relevant documents thereby becomes completely immune from liability merely because part of the works was carried out by another RFSIC [T(C)/D9/94/3-6].

During his oral evidence, when asked by the Chairman whether China Status, as the RFSIC which submitted the SDN, would remain responsible if something went wrong, notwithstanding that PC&E had been at fault in turning off the main power switch, Mr. Leung answered in the affirmative [T(C)/D9/90/30-36].

Mr. Leung’s stance is that the applicable legal framework permits one RFSIC to arrange for another RFSIC to undertake part of the relevant fire service installation works on its behalf.

That position is expressly reflected in Regulation 6A(3) of the Fire Service (Installation Contractors) Regulations (Cap. 95A) [B2/153-154], which provides:

“6A. Illness or absence from Hong Kong … (3) Nothing in paragraph (2) shall prohibit any work being undertaken on behalf of a registered contractor registered in class 1 or 2 by another registered contractor registered in the same class.”

on behalf of one RFSIC by another RFSIC. R.6A(3) is not relied upon for the illness-or-absence situation in paragraph (2). Its significance lies in what it 7 presupposes: the legislature would not have expressly provided that such delegation is not prohibited unless it were already an accepted and common practice. It follows that the FSD would have appreciated that the RFSIC signing an FS251 or SDN may not necessarily be the same entity carrying out every aspect of the physical works.

Reference was made during Mr. Leung’s oral evidence to FSD Circular Letter No. 1/2021 B2/1302-1311 [T(C)/D9/56-61]. However, it is submitted that, at most, the Circular Letter provides that the RFSIC which has inspected the relevant fire service installations is the most appropriate party to notify the FSD. It does not purport to address the situation where more than one RFSIC is involved in the same project or where part of the relevant works is undertaken by another RFSIC, such as the situation contemplated in R.6A(3). Accordingly, the Circular Letter does not detract from the statutory framework discussed above.

The same understanding is also reflected in the evidence of Mr. Keung of the FSD:

「關有禮大律師:所以你同唔同意其實消防處其實都認同即係個 維修個水缸,其實就個註冊承辦商未必真係要親自嚟做嗰個維修, 不過要監住嗰個維修工程?

姜世明先生:因為承辦商係公司,所以公司佢都係要有佢嘅認可 人士,佢要做好個監督嘅責任,一般要監督好自己嘅員工去做呢 啲嘢,唔該。

關有禮大律師:咁未必係自己嘅員工,即係可能係另外一個承辦 商,不過佢要監督住?

姜世明先生:同意,係。」(粗體後加,以資強調) [T(C)/D10/87/25-30]

8

  1. On this basis, it is submitted that the FSD accepts in practice that the RFSIC

submitting an FS251 and SDN may not necessarily be the same entity carrying out the physical repair works. The mere fact that China Status did not itself carry out the repair works is therefore not inconsistent with the applicable legal framework and practice.

F2. China Status and its Supervisory Role

supervisory role has to be considered against the circumstances of the present case. The nature and extent of supervision required necessarily varies depending on various factors such as the nature and complexity of the works, the experience and expertise of the person undertaking them, and the relationship between the parties. As such, supervisory role assumed by China Status in the Wang Fuk Court project should be assessed by reference to the circumstances known to Mr. Leung at the material time. The level of supervision required in the present case

In the present case, several features are material in determining the level of supervision required.

First, at the material time, Mr. Leung genuinely believed that PC&E was itself an RFSIC, although that belief turned out to be mistaken. Mr. Leung explained the basis for such a belief in his Second Statement [WS7/1882/§39]:

(a) First, Gordon Ho had consistently represented to him that “Prestige” was an RFSIC;

(b) Secondly, during tender interviews attended by Mr. Leung together with Gordon, “Prestige” was introduced as an RFSIC and documents used during those interviews likewise described “Prestige” as an RFSIC; and

9 (c) Thirdly, Mr. Leung recalled checking the List of Registered Fire Service Installation Contractors and believed that “Prestige” appeared on that list. (Although, during the preparation of the Second Statement, he noted that PC&E did not in fact appear on the list, another company with a highly similar name did [WS7/1882/§40].)

During Mr. Leung’s oral evidence, both Counsel for the Committee and ISS East Point Properties Ltd. challenged Mr. Leung’s assertion that he genuinely believed PC&E to be an RFSIC. Notwithstanding that questioning, Mr. Leung’s evidence remained consistent and unshaken [Exchange with Counsel for the Committee: T(C)/D9/88/25-33 & T(C)/D9/90/9-11, 26-29] [Exchange with Counsel for ISS East Point Properties Ltd.: T(C)/D9/100/13-25]. He maintained that he had checked the relevant list and genuinely believed that PC&E was an RFSIC [T(C)/D9/89/21-34].

Second, it should also be emphasised that, prior to the Wang Fuk Court project, the two companies had cooperated on a number of previous projects over several years, including projects at Mayland Court in Causeway Bay and Chung Sing Building in Tai Kok Tsui [WS7/1882-1883/§§41-42]. Those projects proceeded without issue. China Status and PC&E had established a good working relationship. It is submitted that this provided a good foundation, albeit mistaken, for Mr. Leung to proceed on the basis that the representations made by PC&E could be relied upon.

It is also submitted that, in those circumstances, the degree of supervision required from China Status was different from a case where the underlying works were carried out by an unfamiliar contractor or a non-RFSIC.

The supervisory role of China Status

not attend the site to inspect the fire service water tanks before the relevant SDN applications were submitted [WS2/1517/§48; T(C)/D9/63-64]. His evidence is that he proceeded in that manner because he genuinely, albeit 10 mistakenly, believed that PC&E was itself an RFSIC. Mr. Leung was also explicitly told by Mr. Cheung, the foreman of PC&E, that the physical shutdown would be arranged, and that China Status’s personnel would not be permitted to attend the premises [WS2/1515/§37].

Upon that understanding, together with the parties’ previous course of dealings, Mr. Leung proceeded on the assumption that the necessary site inspection and arrangements for the shutdown of the relevant fire service installations would be undertaken or supervised by an RFSIC.

It is nonetheless submitted that the question of whether China Status assumed a supervisory role should be assessed with regard to the steps taken by Mr. Leung and the circumstances known to him at the material time.

As stated in his Second Statement, before each renewal application, Mr. Leung contacted Mr. Cheung to enquire about the progress of the repair works and requested that he be notified immediately once the works had been completed [WS7/1885/§§60-61]. According to the telephone records, between mid- March 2025 and November 2025, Mr. Leung made 85 telephone calls to Mr. Cheung [WS21/2360-2361/§§9-10]. Despite his numerous and repeated enquiries regarding the progress of the repair works, Mr. Leung was never informed by PC&E that the works had been completed [WS7/1888/§74].

It is accepted that some of the SDNs remained in force for several months. However, that fact alone gave Mr. Leung no reason to suspect that the information provided by PC&E was inaccurate. Mr. Keung of FSD accepted that it is not unusual for repair works to fire service water tanks to take several months to complete [T(C)/D10/69/5-8]. It is submitted that there was nothing inherently unusual, from Mr. Leung’s perspective, in being informed that the repair works were still ongoing.

The witness statements of the workers of Red Sun Construct (Asia) Engineering Limited and Tin Hung Engineering Co. show that the repair works to the fire service water tanks in various blocks were completed

11 between September and November 2025 [C1-2/1191/§8; C1-2/1179/§6]. However, Mr. Leung’s evidence, which has not been contradicted, is that PC&E never informed him that those works had been completed, notwithstanding his repeated requests that he be notified immediately upon completion [WS7/1885/§61]. Likewise, Mr. Leung was never informed that certain repaired fire service water tanks had been converted for temporary fresh water use [WS7/1887/§72].

It should also be added that Counsel for the Committee suggested that it was implausible for PC&E, having secured a renovation project worth HK$300 million, to lack the manpower to deal with the SDN renewal paperwork every 14 days. Mr. Leung, however, was unequivocal that this was the explanation given to him by PC&E, and he had no reason at the time to disbelieve it [T(C)/D9/90/18-20].

In those circumstances, and having regard to the previous course of dealings and the good working relationship between China Status and PC&E, Mr. Leung had no reason to suspect that PC&E was withholding material information. PC&E likewise had no apparent commercial reason to prolong the SDNs unnecessarily, at least from Mr. Leung’s perspective.

The Quotation and the Fixed Fee

During the evidential hearing, attention was given to the quotation issued by China Status, which referred to an anticipated duration of “1 year”. Mr. Leung explained in both his Second Statement [WS7/1884/§49] and oral evidence [T(C)/D9/76/5-14] that this referred only to his general understanding of the anticipated duration of the Wang Fuk Court project as a whole, not that any individual SDN would remain valid for one year. That explanation is consistent with the SDN applications, which were submitted between April and September 2025 for different buildings at different times [WS2/1511/§16].

Mr. Leung was challenged regarding his evidence that China Status charged a fixed fee for the project regardless of the number of renewal applications

12 required [T(C)/D9/75/16-32]. It is respectfully submitted that fixed-fee quotations are not uncommon in commercial practice. Whether such an arrangement ultimately proves to be commercially advantageous or disadvantageous depends upon how the project unfolds, and that commercial risk is borne by China Status. The mere fact that China Status agreed to charge a fixed fee does not render Mr. Leung’s evidence improbable, nor does it suggest any improper motive for the renewal of the SDNs.

G. Matters arising from Mr. Leung’s Oral Evidence

from Mr. Leung’s oral evidence: namely, the “rubber stamp” allegation, and alleged inconsistency between Mr. Leung’s First and Second Statements. G1. The “Rubber Stamp” Allegation

During his oral evidence, Mr. Leung accepted Counsel for the Committee’s suggestion that China Status acted as a “rubber stamp” - it submitted the SDNs and the subsequent renewal applications as requested by PC&E. However, Mr. Leung’s acceptance must be understood in its proper context.

The relevant exchange is as follows:

「杜淦堃資深大律師:唔。所以個情況就係咁嘞,宏業叫你哋交 SDN,你哋就交,係咪?

梁秉基先生:係。

杜淦堃資深大律師:你哋冇諗過要做任何嘢,佢哋叫你做,你哋 就做,同唔同意?

梁秉基先生:同意,但係可唔可以講?

13 杜淦堃資深大律師:我知道你有解釋,你嘅解釋喺你第二份證人 供詞裏面講咗。我一陣間會慢慢同你探討你嘅解釋。

梁秉基先生:Okay。

杜淦堃資深大律師:但係就頭先嘅講法,即係事實上嚟講你係同 意嘅,係咪?

梁秉基先生:係,冇落過去嘅。

杜淦堃資深大律師:唔,只不過你係有解釋點解你咁去做,咁講 公唔公道?

梁秉基先生:係。

杜淦堃資深大律師:唔。咁你同唔同意呀?所以其實中華發展一 開始交 SDN 畀消防處去關閉有關嘅系統,到之後每一次嘅延期, 其實你哋都係好似一個橡皮圖章咁,人哋叫你做你就做,同意嘛?

梁秉基先生:係。」(粗體後加,以資強調)[T(C)/D9/64/4-18]

Immediately before putting the “rubber stamp” proposition to Mr. Leung, Counsel for the Committee invited Mr. Leung to answer the question on the footing that his explanation was to be left out of account. It was only in that context that Mr. Leung accepted that, viewed purely as a description of the sequence of events and without regard to his explanation, the expression “rubber stamp” objectively described China Status’s conduct.

The Committee is respectfully invited not to read Mr. Leung’s answer in isolation or as an acceptance that China Status acted without any basis.

14 G2. The Alleged Inconsistency between the First and Second Witness Statements

During his oral evidence, Counsel for the Committee suggested that Mr. Leung’s First and Second Statements were inconsistent [T(C)/D9/93/13-22]. In particular, it was suggested that, in the First Statement, Mr. Leung considered it proper to assist PC&E because PC&E had already engaged another RFSIC [WS2/1512-1513/§22], whereas in the Second Statement, he explained that he proceeded on the basis that he believed PC&E was itself an RFSIC [WS7/1882/§39].

It is submitted that this allegation arises from a misreading of the First Statement and, in particular, the question to which Mr. Leung was responding.

In the First Statement, Mr. Leung was asked by the Committee’s solicitors, Messrs. Lo & Lo, inter alia, why China Status had been engaged during the Wang Fuk Court renovation when another RFSIC, namely Victory Fire Engineering Limited (“Victory Fire”), had already been engaged:

“4. Please explain why it was necessary to engage China Status as a separate FSI Contractor during the Wang Fuk Court Renovation when another FSI contractor (which we understand to be Victory Fire Engineering Limited [“Victory Fire”]) had already been engaged to carry out annual inspection of fire installations and equipment in Wang Fuk Court.” (emphasis added)[WS2/1502/§4]

“Question 4

have already engaged another FSI contractor for the Wang Fuk Court Renovation, no explanation was provided by PC&E as to why China Status had to be engaged to make these FSD applications. However, I did not give much thought as to why services from a second FSI 15 contractor (such as China Status) would be required, nor did I speculate on this.” [WS2/1512-1513/§22]

Mr. Leung’s answer was directed solely to explaining why PC&E had engaged China Status notwithstanding the involvement of another RFSIC. There could have been numerous commercial explanations, for example, PC&E might have wanted to engage different RFSICs for different aspects of the project. The point, however, is that Mr. Leung simply did not know the reason and did not purport to speculate. More importantly, his answer did not purport to explain why he considered it proper for China Status to assist PC&E with the SDN applications. That issue was addressed in the Second Statement [WS7/1883/§44].

Properly understood, the two Statements address different questions and are entirely consistent with one another.

H. Issue (d): The role of the fire alarm system in the present incident

Mr. Leung accepts that, had the fire alarm system been operational at the material time, it is possible that the number of casualties might have been reduced [T(C)/D9/97/21-22]. Nevertheless, it is submitted that the role of the fire alarm system should be assessed together with the other factors specific to this particular incident.

Both the IFITF and the IC Experts identified a number of critical factors contributing to the high number of casualties. While the failure of the fire alarm system was one such factor [ER1/203/§10.1.1; ER3/2247/§6.6.1], it is submitted that the practical effectiveness of a fire alarm system might have been diminished by the rapid loss of the available means of evacuation and the residents’ impaired ability to appreciate the seriousness of the Fire.

16 H1. The rapidly compromised means of evacuation

It is submitted that the practical effectiveness of the fire alarm system in Wang Cheong House might have been significantly constrained by the rapid and swift deterioration of the means of evacuation. In reality, the evacuation window might have been much shorter than the theoretical evacuation window of no more than 10 minutes identified by the IFITF [ER1/215/§10.4.4].

A security guard attempted to activate the manual fire alarm at 1448 hours, approximately three minutes before the Fire was officially reported to the FSD at 1451 hours, but the attempt was unsuccessful [ER1/215/§10.4.3; ER2- 1/578/§2].

Mr. Yiu Men-yeung, leader of the IFITF, opined that since the fire engulfed the entire east re-entrant at 1458 hours, the staircase of Wang Cheong House also became untenable at that moment [WS6/1844/§20]. Echoing this opinion, the IFITF concluded that, had the fire alarm system been operational, residents might have received a warning during the key escape window of no more than 10 minutes between 1448 hours and 1458 hours:

“Had the FAS been operational, Ms. CHUNG’s activation attempt at 1448 hours could have provided residents with a critical evacuation alert during the key escape window between 1448 hours and 1458 hours, when escape routes were still tenable…” [ER1/215/§10.4.4]

had in fact become unsafe earlier. They referred to evidence that the staircase on the 14th floor of Wang Cheong House was already filled with thick black smoke between 1456 and 1457 hours [ER2-1/708/§4] and concluded that at 1456 hours, the staircase had ceased to function as a place of safety [ER3/2234/§4.4.14]. 17

  1. It is submitted that, in reality, residents may have had considerably less time

to evacuate safely than the theoretical evacuation window of no more than 10 minutes identified by the IFITF, for the following reasons:

(a) Given that the fire originated on the flat roof outside Flats 104 and 105 and spread upwards [ER1/14/§1.3.1; ER3/2167/§3.2.2], it follows that the staircase below the 14th floor would likely have been affected by smoke before 1456 hours;

(b) This is further supported by Professor Yuen’s observation, accepted by the IC Experts, that fire and smoke could infiltrate the staircase through gaps and openings in the movable boards even before those boards were completely burned through [ER2-2/1191/§2.6.7; ER3/2247/§6.5.3]; and

(c) Once smoke had entered the staircase, residents would effectively have no safe means of evacuation, as they should not evacuate through a smoke-filled staircase and should not use lifts during a fire [T(C)/D26/44/3-17].

H2. The effect of the polystyrene window coverings

The effectiveness of a fire alarm system also depends upon residents being able to assess the situation after hearing the alarm and decide whether evacuation is appropriate. It is submitted that, in the present case, that ability was materially impaired by the polystyrene window coverings.

It is neither realistic to assume nor advisable that residents should immediately evacuate solely upon hearing a fire alarm. As Mr. Yiu explained in his oral evidence, evacuation is not invariably the safest course of action. Depending upon the circumstances, remaining inside one’s own unit may be the safer option [T(C)/D26/44/11-12].

A resident hearing a fire alarm would naturally seek to assess the situation by reference to visible smoke or flames, the smell of burning, shouting, or other

18 indications of fire. However, the polystyrene window coverings substantially obstructed residents’ ability to observe the Fire. The IFITF’s survey findings likewise indicate that only an extremely small proportion of residents became aware of the fire through actually seeing the Fire:

“Among the 291 witness statements, only 43 individuals (14.7%) reported seeing fire or smoke. Similarly, among the 579 questionnaires, only 48 respondents (8.3%) indicated that they had witnessed the fire…” [ER1/218/10.5.3]

In those circumstances, even if the fire alarm system had functioned, residents might still have been unable to make a timely and informed decision as to whether evacuation was necessary or whether the available evacuation route remained safe.

Accordingly, whilst the failure of the fire alarm system undoubtedly formed part of the overall circumstances leading to this tragedy, its practical effectiveness might have been significantly curtailed by the rapidly deteriorating conditions within the staircases and the inability of many residents to appreciate the seriousness of the Fire. It follows that the failure of the fire alarm system should be considered together with those other critical factors, rather than in isolation.

H3. The integrity of the fire alarm system

Finally, it is submitted, when considering the role of the fire alarm system in the Fire, one should not too readily assume that the fire alarm system would have been operational during the Fire if the main switch (“刀掣”) had remained on.

Regarding Wang Chi House, which was only minimally affected by the Fire and in respect of which Mr. Keung opined that the fire alarm system should have remained intact and undamaged, the fire alarm system nevertheless could not be actuated during the post-fire investigation and was only restored to

19 operation after replacement of the fuses [WS1/140-141/§10.11; ER2-4/1811]. Mr. Keung accepted that he could not exclude the possibility that, even if the main switch of Wang Chi House had remained on during the Fire, the fire alarm system might still not have operated [T(C)/D10/80/27-30].

A similar observation could be made in respect of Wang Tao House, which was likewise “not affected or significantly affected” by the Fire [WS4/1800/§4.3]. There was evidence suggesting that the main switch had been restored during the Fire, yet the fire alarm system still could not be activated [ER2-4/1769/§7].

As regards Wang Kin House and Wang Shing House, which were more seriously affected by the Fire and whose fire alarm systems likewise could not be actuated during the post-fire investigation, similar observations may nevertheless be made. Although it is accepted that the Fire may have damaged the relevant circuitry, the post-fire investigation does not eliminate the possibility that the fire alarm systems were already not fully functional before the Fire.

It is further noted that, according to the post-fire investigation, the control fuses of the fire alarm systems in all buildings, with the exception of Wang Cheong House, were found to have blown [ER2-4/1816]. Mr. Keung testified that where the fuse is blown, a fire alarm cannot be activated whether the main switch is in the “ON” or “OFF” position [T(C)/D10/80/17-20].

It is accepted that the Fire may have caused those control fuses to blow. However, that is not the only possible explanation. Significantly, Wang Cheong House, despite sustaining the most severe fire damage, was the only building whose control fuse remained intact after the Fire. In those circumstances, the post-fire investigation does not permit a firm conclusion that the blown fuses in the other buildings were necessarily caused by the Fire.

The above is not intended to suggest that the fire alarm system would necessarily have failed, regardless of the position of the main switch. It simply

20 demonstrates that one should not too readily assume that, had the main switch remained on during the Fire, the fire alarm system would necessarily have operated. Caution should therefore be exercised before concluding that the position of the main switch was the sole factor determining whether the fire alarm system would have been functional during the Fire.

I. Conclusion

Fire. He respectfully hopes that the above observations will assist the Committee in its fact-finding exercise and in reaching a full, balanced and informed understanding of the matters relating to him. Dated this 6th day of July 2026.

Jonathan Kwan

Aaron Chan

Counsel for Leung Ping Kay

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These slides are extracted from the presentation by Prof. Asif Sohail Usmani and Prof. Jiang Liming, Fire Engineering Experts appointed by the Independent Committee, at the Evidential Hearing on 25 June 2026. They summarise the experts’ recommendations and are published with priority to facilitate public discussion.

Recommendations for immediate implementation

  1. Do not permit simultaneous cladding of high-rise buildings with combustible temporary works that are

adjacent or in the vicinity of each other.

  1. Architectural features such as the re-entrants in Wang Fuk Court should be considered as a part of the

building, as a special kind of the vertical shaft.

  1. For high-rise building facades under renovation a higher regulatory bar should be set where buildings remain

occupied during the works.

  1. In addition to the duration of the project, other considerations in approval of the repair/renovation works

should be any special features of the building, such as its geometry, distribution and locations of windows and openings and any exits and entrances, provision of refuge floors etc.

  1. Continuous monitoring of the site should be undertaken using currently available automated monitoring

systems based on computer vision with independent detection and potentially suppression systems.

  1. No combustibles should be allowed on any part of the building façade that could enable heat and smoke to

enter the building and block evacuation routes.

  1. No combustibles should be present above the ground level exits that could allow materials from the

temporary works to fall and block exits.

  1. Stricter oversight must be maintained to ensure that all the materials used in temporary works have been

adequately treated with fire retardant compounds with proper certification and source identification.

  1. Site workers must receive regular training to maintain awareness of fire hazards and remain vigilant.
  2. An intensive induction of occupants and workers must be conducted before the commencement of the

repair/renovation works followed by routine fire drills. 11.The building management structure (PMC/OC) and their coordination with HA and MBIS regimes should be reviewed. 81

Recommendations that require research

  1. A well thought-out and well-designed risk-based methodology must be developed for approval of

renovation/repair work for all buildings in Hong Kong enabling a bespoke building specific temporary works solution to be implemented with appropriate safety measures including redundant FSI.

  1. Development of new less combustible light-weight materials that could be used in temporary works.
  2. Development of bespoke redundant FSI systems especially for temporary works (such as temporary

sprinkler systems).

  1. Dedicated apps for each building should be developed to provide personal information, reporting

and alarm portal to each resident, including live video feeds. The more eyes the more the likelihood of early fire detection.

  1. In the longer term smarter technologies could enable real time monitoring of high-risk sites using

digital twins and identifying the most serious potential hazards and disaster scenarios in advance through AI based simulations and AI based automated building safety management. 82

Recommendations for policy level changes

  1. Building regulations, codes of practice, building codes and standards etc. provide essential guidance to

engineers and practitioners. Compliance with them ensures a certain level of assurance of safety against severe demands during the life of a building. The flip side of this is that often compliance with regulations and codes is seen as adequate by highly cost-conscious clients and the construction industry promoting a tick-box culture of ensuring safety against expected hazards that a building may face in its lifetime. As a society we must address this culture and promote more rigorous engineering analyses and judgement to be exercised, especially when making decisions that could have a bearing upon the life safety implications of an engineering design. Since every building project is different and may have features that may throw up unforeseen challenges to occupant safety, a certain level of rigour and engineering judgement should be mandated for each individual case.

  1. Without the risk of “throwing the baby out with the bathwater”, it is recommended that a committee is

formed to review Hong Kong building regulations and codes of practice to ensure that some level of responsibility is borne by stakeholders when things go wrong and compliance with regulations should not become a shield for them.

  1. “How to interpret and execute the public policy” and “how does the system check and ensure that the policy

is fully executed?” There is no effective mechanism to learn from past incidents and make changes to fire safety policy. Strategic level routine risk assessment of urban hazards should be mandated. HAD RE-ENTRANTS FACED THE SAME RESTRICTIONS AS LIFT WELLS (POST GARLEY BUILDING) THIS TRAGEDY COULD NOT OCCUR! 83

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1

Re. Independent Committee in relation to the fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po (“IC”)

Report of the Hong Kong Competition Commission (“CC”)

Introduction 1. This is the report of the CC to the IC in response to its request for submissions with regards to §§2 to 4 of the Terms of Reference (“ToR”). 2. This report is broken down into the following sections: (1) Part 1 sets out a general overview of the CC’s enforcement work relating to the building maintenance and renovation sector1; (2) Part 2 sets out the CC’s observations on the systematic problems in large-scale building maintenance works in Hong Kong (§2 ToR); (3) Part 3 sets out the CC’s observations on the adequacies of existing regulations and penalties to address the said systematic problems (§3 ToR); (4) Part 4 sets out the CC’s recommendations that are relevant to (2) and (3) above (§4 ToR); and (5) Part 5 sets out the CC’s concluding observations.

In summary, the CC’s position is as follows: Re. §2 ToR

(1) Based on the CC’s market study and investigations, there is indeed a widespread, systematic, and longstanding practice among a sizable number of building maintenance contractors to affect the outcome of tenders for building maintenance works.

(2) Such practices are sometimes (although not necessarily) facilitated by malpractices from supposedly independent consultants that have been engaged by the owners of the relevant building(s) concerned.

(3) Such practices extend beyond “bid-rigging” per se (as defined under s.2 of the Competition Ordinance (Cap. 619) (“CO”) [Tab-1]), but

1 For the purpose of this report, the phrase “building maintenance work” / “building maintenance sector” should be read to encompass renovation works and the renovation sector as well.

2

almost always involve other anticompetitive practices such as price- fixing and market-sharing.

(4) It is also not uncommon for building maintenance contractors to seek to influence the outcome of tenders through other means that do not constitute “bid-rigging” as defined in the CO. These methods may include:

(a) the exchange of competitively sensitive information (e.g. price) in circumstances that fall short of an actual agreement to rig-bids;

(b) engaging in an overarching market-sharing agreement where, for example, contractors would agree to not “enter” into each other’s “territory” ahead of any tender that may come about from buildings located in that territory;

(c) one building maintenance contractor “lending” its template letterheads, company credentials, and email accounts to another building maintenance contractor so that the latter may prepare and submit bids in the name of the other contractor as a “cover” for its own bid. This practice is colloquially known as “Credential Sharing”; and

(d) the setting up of ostensibly independent contractor companies that are, in effect, under the control of the same person / syndicate. These ostensibly independent contractors would, in turn, bid “against” each other in tenders to give the false impression that the underlying tendering process is a competitive one. This practice is colloquially known as “Phantom Bidding”.

(5) There exist syndicate-led cartels whereby there are clear systems of “registration”, dissemination of “homework”, and the presence of ring-leaders / coordinators. These syndicate-led cartels may involve dozens of building maintenance contractors and consultants. In different cases, the CC has observed syndicates working with, as well as competing against, each other to affect the outcome of a tender.

(6) A number of building maintenance contractors and consultants are believed to be affiliated with triad societies in Hong Kong who, in

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turn, may facilitate the operation / continuance of these anticompetitive practices through unlawful means (such as the use of threats or actual violence).

Re. §§3-4 ToR

(7) In terms of existing regulation, the CO provides a suite of powers to the CC and prescribes penalties which enable the CC to tackle anticompetitive conduct including those related to building maintenance under existing legal framework. In addition, with a view to reducing procurers’ exposure to anticompetitive conduct in the procurement process, in 2017 (later revised in 2023), the CC published a set of model non-collusion clauses (“NCC”) and non- collusive tendering certificate (“NCTC”) and encouraged procurers to include the same in their bidding documents and contracts. These have since been widely adopted in the public and private sectors.

(8) While it is still able to tackle building maintenance related anticompetitive conduct under existing legal framework, the CC believes that there is certainly room for legislative changes as well as additional administrative measures which would (1) enhance the effectiveness of CC’s enforcement work under the CO; (2) facilitate criminal prosecutions in appropriate cases; and (3) better deter would-be cartelists. In particular:

Enhancing CC’s enforcement effectiveness under the CO

(a) the CO should clearly stipulate that the relevant standard of proof which the CC must meet in cases where it seeks pecuniary penalties against undertakings and persons it suspects to have contravened the CO is that of the civil standard (i.e. balance of probabilities). Apart from being consistent with the “civil nature” of competition law that was passed by the Legislature in 2012, this would also render the investigative and enforcement work of the CO much more effective compared to the current status quo whereby the relevant standard is the criminal standard (i.e. beyond any reasonable doubt), in part because the CO is silent on what the appropriate standard of proof should be;

(b) the CO should clearly provide for certain statutory

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presumptions that are in line with well-established overseas jurisprudence. For example, where it is proven that competitors had exchanged competitively sensitive information, there should be a statutory presumption that the competitors had done so in order to influence each other’s behaviour on the relevant market and that such an exchange did, in fact, have that effect. This would negate the need for the CC to prove intent / causation which is inherently difficult especially under a criminal standard of proof; and

(c) the existing definition of “bid-rigging” (s.2 CO [Tab-1]) should expressly stipulate that it is not necessary for the CC to show that the relevant anticompetitive conduct was not made known to the person calling the tender in order to prove its case. If, in any case, a respondent wants to rely on the fact that it had made the relevant collusive arrangement known to the person calling the tender as a defense or mitigation, the burden should be on the respondent to prove the positive (that the arrangement was made known by “Bidder X” to “Tenderee Y”) rather than on the CC to prove the negative (that no one at “Bidder X” had made the arrangement known to anyone from “Tenderee Y”).

Facilitating criminal prosecutions / Increasing deterrence

(a) Under the existing laws of Hong Kong, where a building maintenance contractor / consultant had submitted bids that are arrived at by collusion in circumstances where it had expressly warranted by way of the NCTC that it had not engaged in anticompetitive conduct, the breaching of the NCTC could also lead to criminal prosecution under the common law offence of conspiracy to defraud.

(b) The CC fully supports any initiative that seeks to impose criminal sanctions and to increase deterrence against natural persons and undertakings that have been engaged in anticompetitive behaviour when tendering for building maintenance work. To this end, the CC has the following observations:

(i) In terms of short-term measures: that may be immediately

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taken, to the extent that this is not already done, in all large-scale building maintenance tenders involving public bodies, there should be a requirement for all bidders to execute NCTCs lest their bid will not be counted. If it subsequently transpires that the bidder has, in breach of the terms of the NCTC, in fact engaged in collusion prior to submitting its bid, the bidder can be referred to the relevant authorities for criminal prosecution under the common law offence of conspiracy to defraud.

(ii) Additionally, bidders in such large-scale building maintenance tenders could be required to execute a Statutory Declaration confirming the contents of the NCC / NCTCs which, if it is subsequently shown that it is knowingly false, would render the bidder criminally liable for the separate offence of having made a false declaration. The CC views this as being a sensible and effective addition that would make prospective criminal prosecutions easier.

(iii) In terms of mid-term measures: the execution of NCTCs / proposed Statutory Declarations could be required for all large-scale building maintenance tenders and not just for those involving the public sector.

(iv) In terms of long-term measures: amendments to the CO may be made to introduce a criminal regime whereby a specific statutory offence is created targeting natural persons to address anticompetitive behaviour in large- scale building maintenance works while preserving civil penalties for undertakings and natural persons engaged in less egregious conduct. In this regard, the relevant offence should be framed as being one that does not only cover “bid-rigging” per se but also capable of catching other anticompetitive conduct that aims to influence the outcome of the relevant tender (c.f. §3(4) above).

(v) Additionally, in civil cases, the maximum penalty for undertakings that have been found to have contravened the CO as well as the maximum period of director’s

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disqualification orders should be increased. Part 1: General Overview of the CC’s Enforcement Work in the Building Maintenance Sector 4. The CC is the primary law enforcement agency of the CO. In addition to its law enforcement work, one of the CC’s statutory functions is to conduct market studies into matters affecting competition in markets in Hong Kong.

The CO came into full commencement on 14 December 2015. Prior to the full commencement of the CO, the CC conducted an extensive market study into the building maintenance sector in Hong Kong. At the time, this was done, in part, to address the widespread perception that this sector was rife with anticompetitive behaviour.

In May 2016, the CC published its “Report on study into aspects of the market for residential building renovation and maintenance” Tab-2.

In the Report, the CC had sought and obtained from the Urban Renewal Authority (“URA”) and the Hong Kong Housing Society tender records from a number of tenders for building maintenance works. Applying structural and behavioural economic screening techniques that are commonly deployed by overseas competition agencies to the relevant records, the CC’s screening analysis did reveal suspicious patterns that are consistent with there being widespread bid-manipulation practices in Hong Kong. In particular:

(1) A substantial number of bids which supposedly independent consultants had submitted fell below the minimum cost of providing the relevant services. This would suggest that unless the consultants were willing to engage in loss-making behaviour (which generally makes no commercial sense), these consultants might have expected to be remunerated through other (possibly nefarious) means.

(2) In a number of instances, consultants were recorded as having priced their bids in circumstances that did not appear to have any meaningful correlation with the size of the project. This, in turn, suggests that these consultants might have priced their bids in circumstances that were unrelated to the projected costs in undertaking the relevant works.

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(3) Statistically, the frequency in which certain consultants would end up working with certain contractors would lend support to the existence of some form of vertical cooperation between the consultant and the chosen contractor.

As, at the time, the Report was based on analysis of bids submitted prior to the full commencement of the CO, the CC could not take any enforcement actions off the back of the findings of the Report.2

Between 2016 and 2019, the CC filed 3 enforcement actions against 18 undertakings and 5 individuals for engaging in anticompetitive conduct (price-fixing and market sharing) in the decoration and renovation sector in Hong Kong. In each of these actions, the CC was successful in securing declarations of contraventions, pecuniary penalties, and director disqualification orders against those persons holding office in the relevant companies.

In 2022, the CC conducted the first of five investigations into the building maintenance sector in Hong Kong in coordination with the Organized Crime and Triad Bureau of the Police. As of January 2026, the CC had five investigations relating to building maintenance works in Hong Kong covering at least:

(1) 68 residential estates;

(2) 15 industrial estates; and

(3) 64 companies.

The CC filed its first enforcement action concerning price-fixing, bid- rigging, and market-sharing in the large-scale building maintenance sector in March 2026. The CC has provided its Originating Notice of Application and the press-release materials corresponding to that case to the IC and understands that they will be made open to public. 2 It is also important to note that absent exceptional circumstances, proof of suspicious patterns alone will not be sufficient to find a case of “bid-rigging” for the purposes of the CO. Screening analysis of this sort are, instead, generally used to identify potential areas for investigation and to support the necessary statutory threshold which must be met before the CC may use its compulsory powers of investigation under the CO.

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Part 2: Systematic Problems in Large-Scale Building Maintenance and Renovation Works in Hong Kong (§2 ToR) 12. Based on the CC’s investigations, the following observations may be relevant for present purposes:

(1) The CC believes that there is indeed a widespread, systematic, and long-standing practice between some building maintenance contractors to affect the outcome of tenders for building maintenance works. Such practices can range from and are not limited to:

(a) a one-off agreement between building maintenance contractors whereby one / some would refrain / drop out from the bidding process (colloquially referred to as “bid- suppression”);

(b) a one-off agreement between building maintenance contractors whereby there would be a pre-agreed “designated winner” of the tender whose chances of winning would be supported by other building maintenance contractors who would purposely submit less attractive bids (colloquially referred to as “cover-bidding”); and

(c) a market-wide coordinated effort where members of syndicates of building maintenance contractors would agree to / “register” themselves to an overarching scheme where they would facilitate each other’s chances of winning over a number of tenders by systematically engaging in cover bidding if and when called upon (colloquially / loosely referred to as “bid-rotation”).

(2) These practices are sometimes facilitated by the consultants that are supposedly independently engaged by the owners / incorporated owners (“IO”) of a building. In these cases, the consultants may, in exchange for compensation (whether by way of outright payment or by taking a “cut” from the final project works), agree to favourably recommend a building maintenance contractor for the owners and IO to select.

(3) Aside from the practices referred to at §12(1)(a)-(c) above, there exist many other anticompetitive practices on the market for building

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maintenance works that while they may fall short of the definition of “bid-rigging” for the purposes of s.2 CO3 [Tab-1], are nevertheless capable of influencing the outcome of a tender. For example:

(a) an undertaking (whether it may be a bidder / consultant) may exchange competitively sensitive information concerning an ongoing / upcoming tender with an actual / potential bidder, in circumstances where there is no express evidence of an agreement as to how that information will be deployed. This practice is known as “information exchange” and while it is usually, in itself, a standalone contravention of competition law, this is generally not regarded as “bid-rigging’ per se;

(b) multiple undertakings may engage in a market-wide agreement to allocate territories amongst themselves such that they have agreed, in advance, not to “enter” into each other’s geographical market regardless of whatever tendering opportunities that may arise. In competition law, this is known as “market sharing” and is, in fact, separately defined as being a form of Serious Anti-competitive Conduct under s.2 CO [Tab- 1];

(c) one building maintenance contractor may agree to lend its company templates, credentials, email accounts to another building maintenance contractors to put in tender in the former’s name whenever convenient. This practice is known as “credential sharing” and depending on the extent of the first building maintenance contractor’s knowledge, may fall outside the definition of bid-rigging for the purposes of the CO4; and

(d) one building maintenance contractor may set up a number of ostensibly independent building maintenance contractors but which are under common de facto control. These contractors

3 Which, broadly speaking, is defined as: (1) the submission of a bid that have been arrived at by agreement that was not made known to the person calling the tender; or (2) an agreement to withdraw / refuse to bid that was not made known to the person calling the tender. It should be noted that for the purposes of the CO, “bid-rigging” is regarded as a Serious Anti-competitive Conduct that enables the CC to directly bring enforcement action before the Competition Tribunal (“Tribunal”) (c.f. s.2 CO [Tab-1]).

4 At present the CC has only encountered the practice of credential sharing in other industries. The CC however believes that there is no reason why cartelist will not also apply similar malpractices in the building maintenance sector.

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will “bid against” each other in tenders for building maintenance works to give the impression that the tender was a competitive one when, in fact, it was not. This practice is known as “phantom bidding” and depending on whether “phantom bidders” may be regarded as truly “separate” businesses, this practice may fall outside the definition of bid- rigging for the purposes of the CO if the Tribunal does not regard this arrangement as amounting to an agreement between undertakings.

(4) Finally, the CC has reasons to suspect that a number of building maintenance contractors and consultants are affiliated with triad societies in Hong Kong. In the past, the CC has encountered cases where there was evidence that:

(a) threats of or actual violence were used to compel a bidder for building maintenance works to withdraw from a tender or to follow the instructions of the triad societies on how to submit a tender;

(b) building maintenance contractors that are affiliated with the same triad society would coordinate their bids in accordance with instructions received from a senior member of that triad society; and

(c) even within the same tender for a particular building maintenance contract:

(i) building maintenance contractors from two triad societies would try to influence the outcome of the tender by coordinating the behaviour of their own affiliated building maintenance contractors in “competition” with the other triad society; or

(ii) two triad societies would work with each other by cover- bidding for each other.

The following live case studies are provided as illustrations of some of the above practices: 11

(1) Case Study 1: Bid-suppression with the involvement of triads

and suspected corrupt consultants

In one of the CC’s investigations, a building maintenance contractor was interested in bidding for a building maintenance project for a residential building that was the subject of a mandatory building inspection order.

The building maintenance contractor therefore reached out to the appointed consultant inquiring about the status of the tender. The building maintenance contractor and the appointed consultant agreed to meet to discuss the tender.

On the day of the meeting, the appointed consultant had invited two other men to attend as well. One of the men identified himself as being a bidder of the tender while the other claimed to be a member of a triad society.

The two men then, in the presence of the consultant, asked the building maintenance contractor to refrain from bidding and upon him refusing to do so, assaulted him. Subsequently the building maintenance contractor decided to not bid in the tender and reported the matter to the Police who then referred the matter to the CC.

(2) Case Study 2: Syndicate operated cover-bidding cartel

In another of the CC’s investigations, a person who is believed to be a senior office bearer of a triad society is the de facto owner of a building maintenance contractor.

Whenever there was a tender for building maintenance works on the market which this senior office bearer and/or his associates were interested in securing, these persons would “blow the whistle” (吹雞 ) to gather other building maintenance contractors (“Instructed Bidders”) to help rig the outcome of the tender.

This would be achieved by associates of the senior office bearer preparing individual pricing instructions for these Instructed Bidders to follow (which the syndicate refers to as “homework” (功課)). These “homework” would then be sent to the Instructed Bidders either through WhatsApp or fax.

The Instructed Bidders would then submit bids in accordance with the

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“homework” with the net result that a pre-determined bidder would end up submitting a more attractive bid than the other Instructed Bidders.

The CC believes that this syndicate has been operational since June 2020 until 2024 when the CC turned its investigation overt.

(3) Case Study 3: Cooperation between multiple syndicates to rig- bids

Finally, in one of CC’s investigations, in an attempt to rig the outcome of a tender for a particular building maintenance project, the ringleader / coordinator of one syndicate had sought and received assistance from members of another syndicate.

As a result, the CC believes that more than 20 building maintenance contractors were involved in attempting to rig the outcome of a single tender with all of this being centrally coordinated in a systematic fashion.

Against all of the above, the CC considers the above practice to be: (1) Widespread: in that geographically it covers buildings in the whole of Hong Kong and involves a substantial number of building maintenance contractors and consultants.

(2) Systematic: especially where syndicates are involved whereby there are clear systems of “registration”, dissemination of “homework” and existence of ring-leaders / coordinators.

(3) Long-standing: almost every witness who has been willing to attest to the above practices has attributed this to being a long-standing trade practice in Hong Kong. Some of the jargons used (e.g. 「豬標 」 and 「豬仔標」) are used by cartelists in other market sectors as well, such as the IT sector and the sector for installation and maintenance of large-scale air-conditioning works.

Part 3: Existing Regulations and Penalties (§3 ToR) Regulations and Penalties under the CO 15. Under the CO, undertakings are expressly prohibited from entering into any agreement / concerted practices that has the object or effect of harming

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competition in Hong Kong (referred to as the First Conduct Rule under s.6 CO [Tab-1]). This would include paradigmatic cases of bid-suppression, cover-bidding, and bid-rotation.

The maximum penalty for undertakings that have entered into anticompetitive agreements (such as bid-rigging) is capped at 10% of its Hong Kong turnover for a maximum of three years for each year the undertaking has contravened the CO (see. s.93(3) CO [Tab-1]).

For persons involved in the anticompetitive agreement (such as the relevant director / employee), the CO does not specify a maximum penalty as such. It is the CC’s position that the maximum penalty is unlimited in these circumstances.

Where a company has contravened the CO and if the Tribunal considers that a person’s conduct as a director makes the person unfit to be concerned in the management of a company, that person may be disqualified from being concerned in the management of a company for up to 5 years (see. ss.101-103 CO [Tab-1]).

The Tribunal has previously held that the applicable standard of proof in proceedings where the CC seeks a pecuniary penalty is that of the criminal standard. This is because:

(1) The CO itself is silent on the applicable standard of proof; and

(2) As proceedings involving the imposition of a pecuniary penalty involve a determination of a criminal charge for the purposes of Art. 11 of the Hong Kong Bill of Rights (“BOR”), absent express / implied legislative provisions to the contrary, the starting point for such proceedings would normally be the criminal standard of proof.

While the Court of Appeal has previously observed obiter that there is a “reasonably arguable basis” the Tribunal may not have had sufficient regard to the potential frustration of effective enforcement in assessing whether there had been a derogation of Art. 11 BOR by necessary implication, it declined to definitively come to a determination on this issue (see W. Hing Construction Company Limited [2021] 3 HKLRD 219 [Tab-3] at 240-244 [75]-[96], [84] in particular). 14

Regulations and Penalties under the General Laws of Hong Kong 21. It should be noted that bid-rigging per se (i.e. where supposedly competing undertakings agree to not compete with each other in response to a call for tender) is not a criminal offence, or at least does not constitute a conspiracy to defraud. In Chan Wai Yip (2010) 13 HKCFAR 842 [Tab-4], the Court of Final Appeal expressly held that persons attending an auction owed no obligation to the vendor to compete nor were they required by law to ensure that the vendor achieved the highest possible price, and an agreement not to compete in an auction had no deceptive element and hence not per se unlawful.

However, there was also an observation that if the person calling the tender in that case (the FEHD) wanted to protect itself, it could have required a written warranty from each of the potential bidders to the effect that in making a bid, the bidder warranted that he/she had not entered into any prior arrangement to refrain from competitive bidding (Chan Wai Yip supra at 854 [31] [Tab- 4]).

Against the above, in 2017, the CC recommended the adoption of certain model “non-collusion clauses” and “non-collusive tendering certificates” by both the private and public sectors so that any prospective bidders must expressly warrant that in bidding for the relevant tender, the bidder had independently prepared the bid and, in essence, had not colluded with any other persons. CC’s model NCC and NCTC was further revised in 2023 to enable procurers to more easily ascertain the ultimate beneficial owners of persons submitting bids in tenders containing these provisions.

Armed with the revised NCC / NCTC, the CC takes the view (supported by Counsel’s advice recently obtained) that where:

(1) a company has submitted a bid containing a signed NCTC; and

(2) it subsequently transpires that employees / agents / other persons relating to the company had engaged in any form of collusion that renders the representations contained in the NCTC a falsity;

any person that are knowingly parties to the collusive agreement that ultimately led to the submission of the bid which contains the false NCTC may be criminally liable for conspiracy to defraud.

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By way of illustration: (1) where a building maintenance contractor has submitted a bid containing an NCTC and the person executing the NCTC (e.g. the authorised signatory of a company) had colluded with a competitor or the consultant in an attempt to rig the outcome of the tender, any person that is party to the collusion may be criminally liable for a conspiracy to defraud; and

(2) conversely, even if the person executing the NCTC does not have actual knowledge of the underlying collusion that renders the representation false, although he will not be criminally liable, other employees within the company who intended that the NCTC be signed with false representations (e.g. because they were the relevant persons colluding with the relevant competitor / consultant) will still be liable for conspiracy to defraud - along with any persons who are knowingly involved at the other end of the collusion (e.g. the relevant employees working for the competitor / consultant).

Since its introduction in 2017, the CC’s model NCC and NCTC have been adopted by many Government bodies in Hong Kong, including the URA. As of today, the CC understands that all tenders that are called pursuant to the URA’s SMART Tender scheme contain the CC’s model NCC and corresponding bidders are required to provide an NCTC as part of their bid under the SMART Tender scheme. In the context of Wang Fuk Court, the CC understands that all of the relevant consultancy and contractor tenders contain NCCs and most of the bidders have, in turn, executed NCTCs.

In the circumstances and for the purposes of §3 ToR, the existing regulations in Hong Kong are capable of imposing criminal liability at common law on persons that are knowingly parties to bid-rigging in the building maintenance sector provided that there are means to require prospective bidders to provide the relevant written warranties to the procurers (such as an NCTC). Part 4: CC’s Recommendations Amendments to the CO

The CC considers that while it is able to tackle building maintenance related anticompetitive conduct under existing legal framework, there is always room for legislative changes which would enhance the effectiveness of CC’s enforcement work under the CO, facilitate criminal prosecutions in

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appropriate cases, and better deter would-be cartelists. 29. At present, the CC considers that amendments to the CO along the following lines will prove critical in enhancing the effectiveness of the competition law regime in Hong Kong. (1) First, on the question of “standard of proof” for proceedings where the CC is seeking a pecuniary penalty, the existing legislation (s.93 CO for example) should be amended so that it expressly provides that the relevant standard is that of the civil standard (i.e. balance of probabilities). This is not only in line with international best practices, but as the CC had submitted in W. Hing [83] – [84] [Tab- 3], there is a real prospect that a criminal standard would frustrate effective enforcement of competition law in Hong Kong. This is especially in cases that are complex, technical, and/or where the underlying conduct is well concealed (as one would expect in paradigmatic cases of cartel conduct). (2) Second (particularly important if the standard of proof is to remain that of the criminal standard in pecuniary penalty proceedings), the CO should expressly incorporate well-established overseas presumptions lest the criminal standard of proof renders the CC and the Tribunal unable to draw upon such well-established jurisprudences. For example, in a case of information exchange, where it is shown that a competitor (actual or potential) had transmitted competitively sensitive information to another competitor, this exchange should be presumed (subject to proof to the contrary) to have influenced each other’s market behavior (this is known as the Anic presumption in EU law). Such statutory presumption is, in effect, similar to that provided for in insider dealing regulations where similar presumption of “use” of information also exists. (3) Third, on the definition of bid-rigging, the CO should be amended to clearly provide that it is not necessary for the CC to show that the relevant anticompetitive conduct was not made known to the person calling the tender in order to prove its case. This will obviate any potential argument that, in any given bid-rigging case, the CC must prove the negative (i.e. that the suspected bid-riggers had not made their relevant arrangements known to any of the relevant persons within the tendering body) - something which will understandably require considerable time and effort on the part of the CC.

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(4) Finally, concerning the available sanctions against persons that have contravened the CO, the CC recommends that the relevant penalties / periods for director disqualification be increased in a meaningful manner. In doing so, the CC hopes that, together with the changes in (1)-(3) above, the CO is truly able to strike its message of deterrence at the “hearts” of would-be cartelists. 30. In terms of the actual wordings of the above proposed amendments, the CC, working in collaboration with the Commerce and Economic Development Bureau, will approach the Department of Justice on this matter in due course.

Finally, the CC recommends that in addition to requiring all prospective bidders to execute NCTCs in any given tender for large-scale building maintenance works, all prospective procurers should also require all bidders in large-scale tenders (including residential building maintenance works) to execute a Statutory Declaration in terms that are similar to the model NCTC.

In doing so, it is the CC’s intention to provide for the possibility of subsequent criminal prosecution against persons that have engaged in bid- rigging and have sworn the relevant Statutory Declaration to, further or alternative to the offence of a conspiracy to defraud, be charged for having made a false declaration under section 36 of the Crimes Ordinance (Cap. 200) [Tab-5].

“Criminalising Bid-rigging” 33. As to whether Hong Kong should expressly criminalise bid-rigging in order to sanction egregious cartelists and to deter persons from engaging in such conduct in future, the CC’s observations are as follows: (1) The CC fully supports any initiative that seeks to impose criminal sanctions and increase deterrence against persons and undertakings that have been engaged in anticompetitive behaviour when tendering for building maintenance work. (2) The CC is currently considering the legal and enforcement framework from other jurisdictions that have a dual-track civil and criminal competition regime (e.g. UK, Australia, and New Zealand) which allows differential enforcement routes against cartelists and to what extent the experiences from those jurisdiction may be readily

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applicable to Hong Kong. (3) Given that the overwhelming public concern is about all sorts of anticompetitive behaviour that are capable of influencing the outcome of a tender for building maintenance works, simply criminalising “bid-rigging” as defined by the CO may not be sufficient to address this concern. The criminal “net” must, in the circumstances, be cast wider to capture other forms of anticompetitive conduct that may fall short of / be different from “bid-rigging” (e.g. information exchange, market-sharing, credential sharing, and phantom bidding). (4) Finally, it would be prudent for any legislative attempt to “criminalise bid-rigging” to be complementary to (and not designed to supplant) any existing avenues that may already impose criminal liability on would-be cartelist (such as the offence of conspiracy to defraud and the making of false declarations etc.). 34. In this regard, the CC has also been working in collaboration with the Commerce and Economic Development Bureau on possible approaches to criminalization and will consult the Department of Justice on this matter in due course. Part 5: Concluding Observations 35. The CC hopes that this report will prove helpful to the IC in understanding the nature of the underlying problem at hand and the extent to which existing / future regulations may play a role in tackling this problem.

Dated the 14th day of May 2026

Competition Commission

Re. Independent Committee in relation to the fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po List of Documents 1. Sections 2, 6, 93, and 101-103 Competition Ordinance (Cap. 619). 2. Report on study into aspects of the market for residential building renovation and maintenance dated May 2016. 3. W. Hing Construction Company Limited [2021] 3 HKLRD 219. 4. Chan Wai Yip (2010) 13 HKCFAR 842. 5. Section 36 Crimes Ordinance (Cap. 200). Dated the 14th day of May 2026 Competition Commission

Chapter 619 Competition Ordinance 19/09/2019 2. Interpretation (1) In this Ordinance— agreement ( 協議) includes any agreement, arrangement, understanding, promise or undertaking, whether express or implied, written or oral, and whether or not enforceable or intended to be enforceable by legal proceedings; Commission ( 競委會) means the Competition Commission established by section 129; Communications Authority ( 通訊事務管理局) means the Communications Authority established by section 3 of the Communications Authority Ordinance (Cap. 616); company (公司), in addition to the meaning given by section 2(1) of the Companies Ordinance (Cap. 622), includes a non-Hong Kong company within the meaning of that Ordinance and a company registered under Part IX of the Companies Ordinance (Cap. 32) as in force from time to time before the commencement date* of section 2 of Schedule 9 to the Companies Ordinance (Cap. 622) or under Part 17 of the Companies Ordinance (Cap. 622); (Amended 28 of 2012 ss. 912 & 920 and L.N. 162 of 2013) company secretary (公司秘書) includes any person occupying the position of company secretary, by whatever name called; competition authority (競爭事務當局) means— (a) the Commission; or (b) the Communications Authority; competition matter ( 競爭事宜) means any matter involving or having a connection with— (a) a contravention or alleged contravention of a competition rule; or (b) any decision relating to a competition rule, that has been made or is to be made under this Ordinance; competition rule (競爭守則) means— (a) the first conduct rule; (b) the second conduct rule; or (c) the merger rule; conduct (行為) means any conduct, whether by act or omission; conduct rule (行為守則) means— (a) the first conduct rule; or (b) the second conduct rule; confidential information ( 機密資料) has the meaning given by section 123; contract of employment (僱傭合約) means any agreement, whether in writing or oral, express or implied, under which one person (an employer) agrees to employ another and that other agrees to serve the employer as an employee, and also includes a contract of apprenticeship; director ( 董事) includes any person occupying the position of director or involved in the management of a company, by whatever name called, and includes a shadow director; 2/27/26, 5:43 PM Hong Kong e-Legislation - Print Selected Documents https://www.elegislation.gov.hk/printhtml 1/6

document (文件) includes information recorded in any form; first conduct rule ( 第一行為守則) has the meaning given by section 6; functions (職能), except in section 130, includes powers and duties; funds of the Commission (競委會資金) means the funds of the Commission, as specified in section 21 of Schedule 5; Government (特區政府) does not include a company that is wholly or partly owned by the Government; information (資料) includes information contained in a document; infringement notice (違章通知書) means an infringement notice issued under section 67(2); investigation (調查) means an investigation conducted under Part 3; leniency agreement (寬待協議) means a leniency agreement made under section 80; member (委員), in relation to the Commission, means a member of the Commission appointed under section 2 of Schedule 5; merger (合併) has the meaning given by section 3 of Schedule 7 read together with section 5 of that Schedule; merger rule ( 合併守則) has the meaning given by section 3 of Schedule 7; person (人), in addition to the meaning given by section 3 of the Interpretation and General Clauses Ordinance (Cap. 1), includes an undertaking; President ( 主任法官) means the President of the Tribunal appointed under section 136; reviewable determination (可覆核裁定) has the meaning given by section 83; second conduct rule (第二行為守則) has the meaning given by section 21; serious anti-competitive conduct (嚴重反競爭行為) means any conduct that consists of any of the following or any combination of the following— (a) fixing, maintaining, increasing or controlling the price for the supply of goods or services; (b) allocating sales, territories, customers or markets for the production or supply of goods or services; (c) fixing, maintaining, controlling, preventing, limiting or eliminating the production or supply of goods or services; (d) bid-rigging; Note— See also subsection (2). shadow director (幕後董事), in relation to a company, means a person in accordance with whose directions or instructions all the directors or a majority of the directors of the company are accustomed to act, but a person is not to be regarded as a shadow director by reason only that all the directors or a majority of the directors act on advice given by that person in a professional capacity; statutory body (法定團體) means a body of persons, corporate or unincorporate, established or constituted by or under an Ordinance or appointed under an Ordinance, but does not include— 2/27/26, 5:43 PM Hong Kong e-Legislation - Print Selected Documents https://www.elegislation.gov.hk/printhtml 2/6

(a) a company; (b) a corporation of trustees incorporated under the Registered Trustees Incorporation Ordinance (Cap. 306); (c) a society registered under the Societies Ordinance (Cap. 151); (d) a co-operative society registered under the Co-operative Societies Ordinance (Cap. 33); or (e) a trade union registered under the Trade Unions Ordinance (Cap. 332); Tribunal (審裁處) means the Competition Tribunal established by section 134; undertaking (業務實體) means any entity, regardless of its legal status or the way in which it is financed, engaged in economic activity, and includes a natural person engaged in economic activity. (2) For the purposes of the definition of serious anti-competitive conduct— bid-rigging (圍標) means— (a) an agreement— (i) that is made between or among 2 or more undertakings whereby one or more of those undertakings agrees or undertakes not to submit a bid or tender in response to a call or request for bids or tenders, or agrees or undertakes to withdraw a bid or tender submitted in response to such a call or request; and (ii) that is not made known to the person calling for or requesting bids or tenders at or before the time when a bid or tender is submitted or withdrawn by a party to the agreement or by an entity controlled by any one or more of the parties to the agreement; or (b) a submission, in response to a call or request for bids or tenders, of bids or tenders that are arrived at by an agreement— (i) that is made between or among 2 or more undertakings; and (ii) that is not made known to the person calling for or requesting bids or tenders at or before the time when a bid or tender is submitted or withdrawn by a party to the agreement or by an entity controlled by any one or more of the parties to the agreement; goods (貨品) includes real property; price ( 價格) includes any discount, rebate, allowance, price concession or other advantage in relation to the supply of goods or services; supply (供應)— (a) in relation to goods, means sell, rent, lease or otherwise dispose of the goods, an interest in the goods or a right to the goods, or offer so to dispose of the goods or of such an interest or right; and (b) in relation to services, means sell, rent or otherwise provide the services or offer so to provide the services. 2/27/26, 5:43 PM Hong Kong e-Legislation - Print Selected Documents https://www.elegislation.gov.hk/printhtml 3/6

Chapter 619 Competition Ordinance 19/09/2019 Chapter 619 Competition Ordinance 19/09/2019 (3) A note located in the text of this Ordinance is provided for information only and has no legislative effect.

Editorial Note:

Prohibition of anti-competitive agreements, concerted practices and decisions (1) An undertaking must not— (a) make or give effect to an agreement; (b) engage in a concerted practice; or (c) as a member of an association of undertakings, make or give effect to a decision of the association, if the object or effect of the agreement, concerted practice or decision is to prevent, restrict or distort competition in Hong Kong. (2) Unless the context otherwise requires, a provision of this Ordinance which is expressed to apply to, or in relation to, an agreement is to be read as applying equally to, or in relation to, a concerted practice and a decision by an association of undertakings (but with any necessary modifications). (3) The prohibition imposed by subsection (1) is referred to in this Ordinance as the first conduct rule. 93. Tribunal may impose pecuniary penalty (1) If the Tribunal is satisfied, on application by the Commission under section 92, that a person has contravened or been involved in a contravention of a competition rule, it may order that person to pay to the Government a pecuniary penalty of any amount it considers appropriate. (2) Without limiting the matters that the Tribunal may have regard to, in determining the amount of the pecuniary penalty, the Tribunal must have regard to the following matters— (a) the nature and extent of the conduct that constitutes the contravention; (b) the loss or damage, if any, caused by the conduct; (c) the circumstance in which the conduct took place; and (d) whether the person has previously been found by the Tribunal to have contravened this Ordinance. (3) The amount of a pecuniary penalty imposed under subsection (1) in relation to conduct that constitutes a single contravention may not exceed in total— (a) subject to paragraph (b), 10% of the turnover of the undertaking concerned for each year in which the contravention occurred; or 2/27/26, 5:43 PM Hong Kong e-Legislation - Print Selected Documents https://www.elegislation.gov.hk/printhtml 4/6

Chapter 619 Competition Ordinance 19/09/2019 Chapter 619 Competition Ordinance 19/09/2019 Chapter 619 Competition Ordinance 19/09/2019 (b) if the contravention occurred in more than 3 years, 10% of the turnover of the undertaking concerned for the 3 years in which the contravention occurred that saw the highest, second highest and third highest turnover. (4) In this section— turnover (營業額) means the total gross revenues of an undertaking obtained in Hong Kong; year (年度) means the financial year of an undertaking or, if the undertaking does not have a financial year, a calendar year. 101. Disqualification order (1) In the circumstances specified in section 102, the Tribunal may, on application by the Commission, make a disqualification order against a person. (2) A disqualification order is an order that a person may not, without the leave of the Tribunal— (a) be, or continue to be, a director of a company; (b) be a liquidator or provisional liquidator of a company; (c) be a receiver or manager of a company’s property; or (d) in any way, whether directly or indirectly, be concerned or take part in the promotion, formation or management of a company, for a specified period, not exceeding 5 years, beginning with the date of the order. (3) In this section— specified (指明) means specified in the disqualification order. 102. Circumstances in which disqualification order may be made The Tribunal may only make a disqualification order against a person if both of the following conditions are satisfied in relation to that person— (a) it has determined that a company of which the person is a director has contravened a competition rule; and (b) it considers that the person’s conduct as a director makes the person unfit to be concerned in the management of a company. 103. Unfitness to be concerned in management of company (1) For the purpose of deciding under section 102(b) whether a person is unfit to be concerned in the management of a company, the Tribunal— (a) must have regard to whether subsection (2) applies to the person; and 2/27/26, 5:43 PM Hong Kong e-Legislation - Print Selected Documents https://www.elegislation.gov.hk/printhtml 5/6

(b) may have regard to the conduct of the person as the director of a company, in connection with any other contravention of a competition rule. (2) This subsection applies to a person if as a director of the company— (a) the person’s conduct contributed to the contravention of the competition rule; (b) the conduct of the person did not contribute to the contravention, but the person had reasonable grounds to suspect that the conduct of the company constituted the contravention and took no steps to prevent it; or (c) the person did not know but ought to have known that the conduct of the company constituted the contravention. 2/27/26, 5:43 PM Hong Kong e-Legislation - Print Selected Documents https://www.elegislation.gov.hk/printhtml 6/6

Report on study into aspects of the market for residential building renovation and maintenance May 2016

The market for residential building renovation and maintenance is an important market for the people of Hong Kong. Building renovation and maintenance costs are often a major expense for ordinary home owners 1, so that outcomes in this market have a signiϐicant impact on the family lives and standards of living of many ordinary people. Moreover, a wide variety of sources have expressed deep concern that there is widespread collusive activity in tenders for renovation and maintenance projects, to the detriment of home owners who must pay for the associated costs out of their savings. In view of these concerns, and to enable the Competition Commission to understand how this complex market operates so as to inform its future enforcement and advocacy efforts, the Commission undertook a study of certain aspects of the market for residential building renovation and maintenance since the spring of 2015. This report outlines the results of the Commission’s examination of certain activities in this market. The Commission’s general purpose and approach in conducting market studies

The Commission’s functions include “to conduct market studies into matters affecting competition in markets in Hong Kong” and “to advise the Government on competition matters in Hong Kong and outside Hong Kong”. 2

The Commission’s market study function provides the Commission with the opportunity to assess whether competition in a market is working effectively. This is particularly relevant where it is desirable to focus on the functioning of the market as a whole or on features of a market in more general terms rather than on a single aspect of it or the conduct of particular ϐirms within it. Market studies may examine any competition problem and may identify the market features causing the problem. A wide range of information may be studied and analysed during the course of a market study. Economic analysis techniques may be used to further identify issues. The use of “screening” techniques applied during this particular study is described in this report.

The main objective of a market study is to examine if competition within a market is working well or can be improved; it does not seek to establish general rules and obligations for ϐirms. The Commission can look at the conduct of ϐirms as it relates to the functioning of competition in the market generally, and it can also look for other causes of insufϐicient competition such as structural aspects of the market (including barriers to entry and expansion) or the conduct of customers. The purpose of a market study is not necessarily to look for contraventions of the Competition Ordinance, and subjects for a market study are not conϐined to issues that could be contraventions. 1 We would note that tenants will likely be affected in a similar way to home owners, because higher maintenance and renovation costs will likely be passed on to them to some extent. 2 Competition Ordinance, section 130. 1‧ Report on study into aspects of the market for residential building renovation and maintenance

Two things should be noted about the Commission’s study in this case. Firstly, and as a general point, the Commission does not have compulsory information gathering powers in conducting market studies unlike in the case of investigations of possible contraventions of the Competition Ordinance. Secondly, this market study relates to activities that occurred before the full commencement of the Competition Ordinance in any event. Thus, in contrast with market studies that the Commission might conduct in the future, the conduct studied would not likely constitute a contravention of the competition rules because they were not yet in force.

If the Commission identiϐies that there are systematic problems of insufϐicient competition in a market, it can take a number of steps. For instance, if the Commission identiϐies that there is problematic conduct potentially falling foul of the Competition Ordinance by a number of ϐirms in the market, it may identify that sector as meriting priority in enforcement case selection. Additionally, if the Commission identiϐies that there is a structural competition deϐicit within the market that may be solved through Government policies or action, it may make appropriate recommendations to the Government in accordance with its government advisory function. The Commission may also consider whether education of market participants would assist in resolving the problems identiϐied. Potential competition issues identiϐied in the market for residential building renovation and maintenance

The Commission undertook an examination of a segment of the market for residential building renovation and maintenance related to the common areas of residential buildings as it operated just prior to the Competition Ordinance coming into effect. To do this, the Commission sought information from a range of stakeholders and market participants. In particular, the Commission was greatly assisted in its understanding of the market by the Urban Renewal Authority (the URA) and the Hong Kong Housing Society (the HKHS), who provided the Commission with historical information on tenders for projects.

The appointment of ϐirms to undertake building renovation and maintenance work for home owners is usually done in a two-stage process. Commonly, the home owners ϐirst appoint a consultant to advise them on the type of work that needs to be done and to oversee a tender process for the appointment of a contractor. That ϐirm (that is, the consultant) must include an authorised person registered under the Buildings Ordinance (typically a registered architect, engineer, or surveyor). Second, the contractor – who will undertake the physical renovation and maintenance construction work – is appointed by way of a tender overseen by the consultant. ‧2

The Commission’s examination of the market in this case indicated that different types of bid-manipulation practices appear to be of particular concern in this two stage process. One type of bid-manipulation practice occurs where competing contractors engage in bid-rigging cartel conduct or other collusive behaviour intended to inϐluence the outcome of the tender for their services to their favour, typically resulting in an inϐlated contract price compared to a more competitive level. The consequence of the higher price is that the consumers of the contractors’ services, that is, the home owners who have to pay for the building work, pay more because of the collusive practice.

A second type of bid-manipulation practice (which may accompany or facilitate the conduct described in the preceding paragraph) occurs where a consultant and a contractor conspire with each other so that the particular consultant wins the bid to oversee the tender for the physical works (sometimes by putting in an extremely low bid for the consulting services), and then organises for its allied contractor to win the bid for the renovation work at an inϐlated price. Again, the ordinary home owner pays more because of this bid-manipulation practice.

These two practices are very likely not the only conduct engaged in for the purpose of bid-manipulation in this market. The Commission also notes that both practices – potentially in conjunction with other conduct – may be used in combination as part of a broader bid-manipulation scheme. The extent to which speciϐic instances of bid- manipulation could potentially contravene the Competition Ordinance depends on the facts of each case.

The Commission received substantial anecdotal and other market intelligence suggesting that bid-manipulation practices may have taken place regularly in Hong Kong in the recent past in relation to the market examined, to the detriment of Hong Kong consumers. The Commission therefore applied screening techniques to analyse the tender records of past actual projects. As explained in more detail below, screening can help competition authorities detect suspicious conduct and decide where to look more closely for evidence of competition law breaches. The screening carried out by the Commission can provide an indication of whether patterns in the data would be consistent with the widely suspected bid-manipulation practices. It also indicates whether the Commission would likely decide to investigate some of the observed patterns if they were encountered today using a more recent set of tender data. The Commission has undertaken detailed quantitative “screening” analysis on a wide range of projects

The Commission examined the past tender results of a wide range of speciϐic building maintenance projects which the URA and HKHS shared with the Commission on a conϐidential basis. Based on its analysis of these tender records, the Commission found patterns that would be consistent with the above mentioned bid- manipulation practices widely suspected in the building maintenance and renovation market.

3‧ Report on study into aspects of the market for residential building renovation and maintenance

The projects examined were those subsidised under the Operation Building Bright (OBB) scheme, a government subsidy scheme launched in 2009. OBB consisted of two rounds of funding with a total allocation of up to $3.5 billion. Buildings beneϐiting from the scheme are of a certain vintage (30 year-old or over). Geographically, the scheme covers Hong Kong Island, Kowloon and the New Territories and involves building works in the common area of buildings, typical of the works undertaken in most building renovation and maintenance projects initiated by owners in Hong Kong. Information on the tenders concerned was collected by the URA and the HKHS during the course of the scheme. The Commission analysed the results of around two hundred tenders for the appointment of consultants to plan and oversee OBB renovation projects, and of around ϐive hundred tenders for the appointment of contractors to carry out the renovation works.

The Commission examined these tender records by using a method known as screening. Originally proposed by academic economists, screening has been used by competition agencies around the world to facilitate cartel detection. Cartels cause signiϐicant economic harm and ϐighting them is a priority for competition authorities. However, cartels operate in secret and they are hard to detect. Leniency programmes that offer cartelists immunity or reductions in ϐines in exchange for information on cartel conduct have been used by many competition authorities with great success. Screens represent an additional tool competition authorities can use to uncover cartel behaviour and can – as such – complement leniency programmes and other detection techniques. Background information about screening

Generally, screens can be classiϐied into two types – structural and behavioural. 3 Structural screens are based on the structural characteristics of a market (e.g. the number of competitors and product homogeneity) and aim to identify markets that are more susceptible to collusion. Such structural screens can provide useful guidance to competition authorities in deciding which markets within the economy to prioritise when enforcing cartel prohibitions.

Behavioural screens, on the other hand, look for behaviour on the part of market participants within a speciϐic market that appears more likely to be consistent with collusion rather than competition. 4 These screens can again be classiϐied broadly into two categories: (1) screens that look for patterns that are very unlikely to occur under competition and (2) screens that look for patterns that appear inconsistent with some benchmark (for example, a market in another region or some measure of costs). In both cases the screen ϐlags behaviour/patterns that appear(s) inconsistent with competition, indicating that the market concerned may be affected by some form of collusion. The Commission has applied both types of behavioural screens in this market study. A brief review of screens applied elsewhere in the world below illustrates how such screens can work in practice. 3 OECD Directorate for Financial and Enterprise Affairs – Competition Committee (2014), Ex ofϐicio cartel investigations and the use of screens to detect cartels, Background Note by the Secretariat, p.225. Available at http://www.oecd.org/daf/competition/exofficio-cartel-investigation-2013.pdf 4 Ibid, p.20 ‧4

A prominent example internationally is the uncovering of collusive conduct in the setting of the LIBOR benchmark interest rate in the ϐinancial market through the use of screening techniques. 5 LIBOR is an important benchmark interest rate – that is, a price of borrowing money – used widely in ϐinancial markets. It was set daily in London by the British Bankers Association based on individual quotes on the costs of borrowing money from a number of banks. Journalists initially ϐlagged suspicious patterns in the LIBOR benchmark. Academics then followed up with more detailed screening analysis. One of the results of this screening was that many banks had submitted identical quotes for extended periods of time. This is a pattern that seems highly unlikely if the banks made their decisions independently of each other without any coordination. Subsequent investigations by competition authorities and ϐinancial regulators in several jurisdictions led to substantial penalties.

Screens have also been used to detect collusive behaviour in the construction sector. For example, the screening of highway paving project tenders in New York State in the United States suggested that certain known cartelists who had previously participated in bid-rigging rings elsewhere in New York State also rigged the tenders under study. 6 Speciϐically, the authors of the study looked into the relationship between the level and ranking of bids and the underlying costs of the bidders. They found that the level and ranking of bids submitted by the non-cartel ϐirms could be explained by relevant cost indicators while this was not the case for the bids submitted by the cartelists. The authors interpreted these results as an indicator of cover bidding – where bidders agree to submit bids with higher prices or less attractive (or unacceptable) terms as compared with the bid of the designated winner – by those parties with a prior history of cartel conduct. The results of the Commission’s use of screening techniques

The Commission applied a number of different and complementary screening techniques to the tender records it had obtained. One screen the Commission applied focused on tender participation and tender success. The motivation for this screen ϐlows directly from the forms of bid-manipulation widely suspected in this market and outlined above: if certain groups of bidders conspire to inϐluence tender outcomes in their favour, one might expect those groups of bidders to participate in the same tenders frequently. Furthermore, where such groups do participate in the same tender, group members’ chances of winning the tender should also increase. The Commission screened the tender data for such patterns.

More speciϐically, the Commission ϐirst looked for indications of consultants and/or contractors participating in the same tenders more often than would be expected if they were making their decisions to participate independently of each other. It is, of course, difϐicult to decide in practice which level of participation in the same tenders is consistent with independent decision making and which level is not. 5 See, for example, Abrantes-Metz, Rosa M., Michael Kraten, Albert D. Metz and Gim S. Seow (2012), LIBOR Manipulation?, Journal of Banking and Finance, 36(1), pp. 136-150. 6 Porter, Robert H. and Zona, J. Douglas (1993), Detection of Bid Rigging in Procurement Auctions, Journal of Political Economy, 101(3), pp. 518-538. 5‧ Report on study into aspects of the market for residential building renovation and maintenance

‧6

  1. The Commission therefore looked at different measures of participation. One measure

evaluated participation from a statistical perspective. The Commission ϐirst asked: how often would we expect to see consultant/contractor and contractor/contractor pairs in the same tender if participating together occurred at random (or put differently, if participation were statistically independent)? The Commission then compared this benchmark level of anticipated pairs with actual pairs in the data. It labelled pairs that appeared too frequently as being possibly associated. 7 A second measure of groups of contractors started from actual participation in tenders. The measure looked for groups of contractors where each group member (1) participated with some frequency in tenders in general and (2) satisϐied some threshold of participation in other group members’ tenders. Again, the Commission considered groups of contractors that fulϐilled these requirements as being possibly associated. As a result of these analyses, the Commission identiϐied possible associations in the data between certain consultants and contractors as well as between certain contractors.

  1. The Commission then went on to check whether the presence of an association between

bidders – as indicated by the above screening analysis – increased the prospect of winning a tender. The result is that it did. Contractors were more likely to win a tender where our screening indicated they were associated with the consultant organising the tender. Similarly, contractors were more likely to win a tender the higher the number of associated contractors – again, as indicated by the above screening analysis – participating in the tender.

  1. Overall, these results suggest that participation patterns in the tender data appear

consistent with the widely alleged bid-manipulation practices described at the outset of this report. While the results do not prove that such practices were present, they would – if encountered today using more recent data – likely lead the Commission to investigate particular tenders.

  1. In a separate analysis, the Commission screened for bid amounts that appear not to be

reϐlective of the costs of providing the underlying goods and services. The motivation for the screen is that in a competitive environment there should typically be a relationship between the cost of providing the goods and services and the bid submitted: the higher the costs underlying the bid, the higher the level of the bid. The Commission’s analyses indicate that bidding patterns of consultants often appear out of line with the underlying costs. There are two ways by which the Commission arrived at this conclusion.

  1. In the ϐirst part of the analysis, the Commission compared the values of consultants’ bids

with an estimate obtained from an industry expert of the minimum costs of providing the services associated with even the most basic consulting project. The ϐigure below illustrates this analysis. 7 The word “associated” as used in this paragraph is not intended to imply any legal association in a corporate sense. The word merely refers to the fact that particular parties appear together in particular tenders more often than might be anticipated if they made their decisions completely independently.

The ϐigure shows the distribution of consultants’ bids with respect to their value (the bid amount). The red line in the ϐigure indicates the minimum estimate of costs associated with even the most basic consultancy project as provided by an industry expert. More than 65% of the bids submitted by consultants fall below that estimate. This may suggest that consultants’ bids are suspiciously low in many projects. One possible interpretation would be that consultants bid aggressively low in order to win a project and subsequently beneϐit from awarding renovation work to particular contractors.

In the second part of the screening analysis of the costs underlying bids, the Commission analysed whether consultants’ bids increased with the size of a project. While genuine bids should show a relationship between project size and bid value, this need not necessarily be the case for cover bids that are not intended to win a project. The results indicate that some consultants’ bids did vary in line with project size, but other consultants’ bids did not (or at least much less). The ϐigure below illustrates the result. 7‧ Report on study into aspects of the market for residential building renovation and maintenance

The ϐigure shows the relationship between bid amounts and project size (approximated by the number of units in a building) for two consultants. The consultant on the left submitted bids that tend to increase with project size. This is a pattern one would expect under competition: the larger the project, the higher the associated costs and the higher the value of the bid. The consultant on the right, on the other hand, submitted bids that show no clear relationship with the size of the project (and often take on the same value for projects of very different size). One possible interpretation for this latter pattern is that certain consultants may have submitted bids that were unrelated to their costs in certain tenders.

Overall the results of the Commission’s screening analyses would be consistent with the widely alleged bid-manipulation practices outlined above having been present to an extent. They are, however, no proof of such activities having actually taken place; our screening analyses are neither suited nor intended to conclusively prove contraventions. The purpose of screens is primarily to identify patterns that are suspicious in order to focus an investigation and decide where to look more closely for additional evidence. As a consequence, the Commission has neither concluded that any speciϐic practices led to the patterns observed during the study, nor that the conduct underlying these patterns would have contravened the Competition Ordinance had it been in full effect at the relevant time. Nevertheless, if encountered today, the results would likely lead the Commission to initiate further investigations into certain aspects of this market. ‧8

The Commission will investigate future bid-rigging collusion that is now illegal under the Competition Ordinance

  1. The Competition Ordinance came into full effect on 14 December 2015. Under the First

Conduct Rule in the Ordinance, businesses must not make, give effect to or facilitate agreements that have the object or effect of preventing, restricting or distorting competition in Hong Kong. If the Commission were to encounter similar patterns detected in the context of this study today, it would likely raise concerns that there may be conduct underlying them that could contravene the First Conduct Rule and warrant further investigation. If such investigations eventually conϐirmed suspected contraventions of the First Conduct Rule, the conduct could be brought to the Competition Tribunal for the imposition of penalties. In particular, where there is evidence of collusion on bids between competing contractors as part of a bid-rigging cartel, the practices may constitute serious anti-competitive conduct as deϐined by the Competition Ordinance and may attract very serious penalties.

  1. Moreover, if a consultant conspires with, aids or is in any way knowingly

concerned in a bid-rigging cartel, the consultant is also exposed to pecuniary penalties under the Competition Ordinance. Market participants are advised to bid for projects on a competitive basis and to avoid collusive practices or conspiring with others in support of such practices now that the Competition Ordinance is in full force.

  1. The methods used in the Commission’s study of the building renovation and maintenance

sector have potential implications for future conϐidential investigations and law enforcement actions to be undertaken by the Commission. As a result, the Commission proposes to limit the amount of detail it provides on the methods employed in this case.

  1. The Commission’s enforcement and advocacy activities will be informed by the

results of the screening exercises in this study, as it attempts to uncover bid- rigging and other contraventions of the Competition Ordinance now that the law is in full force. To the extent that bid-rigging cartels, in particular, can be prevented, Hong Kong home owners and tax payers will beneϐit from more competitive contract prices.

  1. Home owners and other members of the public are encouraged to be alert to

the prospect of bid manipulation and are encouraged to come forward and report any speciϐic information to the Commission and other authorities for further examination. The Commission will be issuing educational materials about bid- rigging including brochures and videos. This will include detailed guidance to relevant stakeholders, such as procurement ofϐicers, on how to structure tenders to avoid potential bid manipulation and how to detect bid manipulation more readily. 9‧ Report on study into aspects of the market for residential building renovation and maintenance

The Commission supports the URA’s, the HKHS’s and the Government’s initiatives in this market

  1. The Commission wishes to acknowledge that in administering the OBB Scheme,

the URA and the HKHS have taken a number of important steps to address the problem of bid-rigging. Their formulation of OBB Maintenance Guidelines and New Tender Arrangements (“NTA”) in consultation with the ICAC has gained notable success in improving the competitiveness of the tender process for OBB projects.

Under the NTA, three tender procedures originally handled by the authorised person, building management company and/or owners’ corporation members of buildings under the OBB scheme were managed by an independent accounting ϐirm appointed by the URA or HKHS. The whole process from collecting, acknowledging and recording expressions of interest, distributing tender documents as well as collecting and opening the returned tenders was carried out and certiϐied by a certiϐied public accountant. In order to encourage more building contractors to take part in the tendering process and in line with the OBB Maintenance Guidelines, 10 additional registered general building contractors were selected by the appointed independent accounting ϐirm from a computer ballot to add to the list of tenderers. 8

Before and after the introduction of the NTA in September 2013, in the cases handled by URA, the average number of expressions of interest for an OBB project rose from around 20 to 50, and the number of bids submitted rose from around 16 to 29. The most striking change was an increase in the share of projects for which actual award prices were in line with independent consultants’ pre-tender estimates from around 54% to 93%.

The Commission also understands that the URA and the HKHS have referred suspected cases of bid-rigging with criminal elements to the Police and the ICAC.

Th e Government of the HKSAR has recently announced additional measures to combat bid-rigging. Speciϐically, on 10 May 2016 the URA launched the “Smart Tender” Building Rehabilitation Facilitating Services (pilot scheme) which will (1) set up an electronic bidding platform for property owners to invite bids and receive expressions of interest from contractors for building renovations, thereby keeping conϐidential the identity of the bidders until the bid opens, and (2) provide access for home owners to professional advice regarding the recommended scope of building renovation projects and estimated value of works. 9 8 See announcement by URA and HKHS, available at http://www.ura.org.hk/en/media/press- release/2013/20130918.aspx 9 See http://www.ura.org.hk/en/media/press-release/2016/20160510.aspx ‧10

The Commission supports and encourages these Government initiatives. Hong Kong home owners will beneϐit signiϐicantly if markets for this important expense operate competitively – home owners would receive better prices, better quality services, and more choices in building renovation and maintenance. The electronic bidding platform proposed by the Government can, by partly anonymising bids, help tenders operate more effectively and protect against the establishment of bid rigging cartels. Similarly, the access to the professional advisory services proposed by the Government can assist home owners to be better informed and more able to distinguish between legitimate and collusive bids, and assist them to make better, more informed and competitive choices as to how to spend their money on the renovation and maintenance of their homes. The Commission welcomes these positive outcomes. Going forward

The techniques developed in the context of this study could potentially be used to detect possible competition law violation going forward. The Commission now has the tools developed over the course of the study at its disposal. The ability to conduct a meaningful screening exercise depends very much on the amount and quality of data that are made available for analysis. In this connection, the Commission calls upon both the public and private sectors to work on collecting and building databanks of building maintenance- related tenders. For example, the Commission will explore with the Government the possibility of assessing data on different projects collected via the electronic bidding platform mentioned in paragraph 40 above.

As the tender process home owners use to award contracts may expose them to certain forms of bid-manipulation, information about how to prevent and detect bid-rigging is important. It is also important that consultants and contractors understand their obligations. The Commission has identiϐied the need to undertake further education and outreach activities on bid-rigging. The Commission is launching a series of brochures, videos and exhibitions on this topic, and all participants or would-be participants in tenders are urged to actively ϐind out more.

More generally the Commission could also see that there is considerable scope to work with stakeholders such as the URA and the ICAC and other government bodies to closely review the process of awarding work in this area and to recommend measures that could help protect home owners. This could, for example, involve recommended changes to the tendering process and tender documents. For example, consultants and contractors could be required to declare that no bid-rigging has occurred when submitting tenders. This would ensure that bidders turn their minds to the need to ensure no bid-rigging has occurred. Additionally, if the bid is subsequently found to be rigged the tenderer may be able to take private action in respect of the misleading declaration. 11‧ Report on study into aspects of the market for residential building renovation and maintenance

Consultants of different professions and contractors play an essential role in building maintenance projects. The market study has highlighted possible concerns about the participation of some of these players in bid-manipulation practices. In this connection, the Commission calls upon the relevant industries and professional bodies to develop and strengthen the codes of conduct for their members to give due regard to the competition rules. The Commission stands ready to facilitate these industries and professional bodies in such an exercise. Conclusion

This market study has considered the issue of bid-manipulation in residential building renovation and maintenance project tenders. The Commission’s use of screening techniques to analyse tender outcomes has revealed patterns that would be consistent with the wide-spread feeling among the public that there may have been problems in building renovation and maintenance markets. If the Commission were to obtain similar results today, it would very likely investigate further certain patterns highlighted by the analysis. The results of the study will be used to inform the Commission’s enforcement and advocacy activities now that the Competition Ordinance is in full effect.

Those who might be tempted to manipulate bids in contravention of the competition rules should know that the Commission is watching and it has at its disposal a number of different tools to detect such contraventions. The Commission understands what has been taking place, and it will investigate where it can. Those contemplating rigging a bid should abandon such projects. Those already involved in rigging bids should realise that they are involved in serious anti-competitive conduct and should do the right thing by approaching the Commission to apply for leniency under the Commission’s Leniency Programme to avoid the risk of facing substantial penalties and other sanctions. The Commission has identiϐied bid-rigging cartels as a priority for enforcement and will use the full extent of its powers to end bid-rigging cartels.

The study also provides an opportunity for the Commission to share knowledge with relevant government departments and public authorities to assist them to identify where potentially anti-competitive bid-rigging conduct has occurred, and measures that can be taken to minimise the risk of it occurring in the future. Additionally, where the Commission identiϐies bid-manipulation that is unlikely to contravene the Competition Ordinance, but may be an offence under other laws (e.g. anti-corruption or bribery laws) the Commission will refer relevant cases to the appropriate authorities such as the Police and the ICAC. 24 May 2016 ‧12

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Competition Commission and W Hing Construction Co Ltd (永興聯合建築有限公司) ———— [2021] HKCA 877 (Court of Appeal) (Civil Appeal No 257 of 2019) ———— Lam V-P, Barma and Au JJA 5 May, 18 June 2021 Competition law — Competition Tribunal — proceedings for breach of “first conduct rule” — proceedings against partnership for pecuniary penalty — liability of individual partners — no basis to import requirement of mens rea on part of individual partners — Competition Ordinance (Cap.619) Competition law — Competition Tribunal — proceedings for pecuniary penalty — standard of proof — inappropriate for Court of Appeal to determine issue at high level of abstraction — Competition Ordinance (Cap.619) Civil procedure — appeal — Court of Appeal — discretion to entertain appeal where lis between parties had gone — inappropriate to determine at high level of abstraction 競爭法 — 競爭事務審裁處 — 違反「第一行為守則」的法律程序 — 針 對合夥的金錢處罰的法律程序 — 個人合夥人的法律責任 — 沒有基礎去 引入個人合夥人該部分的犯罪意圖之要求 — 《競爭條例》(第619章) 競爭法 — 競爭事務審裁處 — 金錢處罰的相關法律程序 — 舉證標準 — 不適合由上訴法院於高度抽象的層面上裁定爭議 — 《競爭條例》(第619 章) 民事訴訟程序 — 上訴 — 上訴法院 — 在訴訟方之間的爭議已消失的情 況下受理上訴的酌情決定權 — 不適合於高度抽象的層面上裁定爭議 R4 was found by the Competition Tribunal (the Tribunal) to have contravened the “first conduct rule” under the Competition Ordinance (Cap.619) (the Ordinance). Subsequently, the Tribunal imposed sanction by way of pecuniary penalties. In the Originating Notice of Application, the Competition Commission (the Commission) had named R4 as “Cheung Yiu Fai Danny and Wong [2021] 3 HKLRD 219

Tung Hoi (in partnership trading as Tai Dou Building Contractor)”. Xs, the two named individual partners, appealed against their liability, submitting, inter alia, that: (i) since it was conceded before the Tribunal that the Commission was not proceeding against the unnamed partners, the Commission could not have been suing in respect of their joint liability stemming from the acts of the firm and was actually suing Xs as individuals regarding their own personal involvement in respect of the contravention of the first conduct rule; (ii) because the liability of the partners was joint, and not several, the proceedings were defective by virtue of the failure to join the unnamed partners; and (iii) taking into account the criminal nature of the proceedings, Xs should not have been held liable in the absence of personal acts or mens rea on their part constituting breach of the first conduct rule. Xs did not seek to disturb the Tribunal’s finding that the firm was liable. The Commission, by respondent’s notice, sought to challenge the determination that the standard of proof for proceedings for a pecuniary penalty under ss.92 and 93 of the Ordinance was proof beyond reasonable doubt. It contended, inter alia, that the Ordinance had impliedly derogated from the criminal standard, otherwise applicable pursuant to art.11 of the Hong Kong Bill of Rights, by necessary implication by virtue of potential frustration of effective enforcement. Held, dismissing the appeal and declining to address the respondent’s notice, that: (1) Although the naming of R4 in the Originating Notice of Application and its description therein was ambiguous, reading it as a whole and in context, the acts and conduct pleaded as contraventions of the first conduct rule were those of the partnership. In any event, all parties had proceeded in the Tribunal on the basis that the firm was R4, and Xs were proceeded against by virtue of their capacity as partners. There was no rigid rule that in advancing a claim on joint liability all parties jointly liable must be joined. (See paras.28, 34, 65, 67.) (2) Notwithstanding the application of criminal standard of proof by virtue of art.11 of the Hong Kong Bill of Rights in terms of procedural safeguards, on the proper construction of the Ordinance, proceedings in respect of contraventions of the first conduct rule did not involve the trial of a substantive statutory criminal offence. Accordingly, there was no basis to import the requirement of mens rea on the part of Xs; their liability flowed from the liability of partners for the civil obligations of a partnership (Competition Commission v TH Lee Book Co Ltd [2020] HKCT 12 approved; Secretary for Justice v Cheung Kai Yin [2016] 4 HKLRD 367 applied; R [2021] 3 HKLRD 219 HONG KONG LAW REPORTS & DIGEST 220

v W Stevenson & Sons (A Partnership) [2008] 2 Cr App R 14, Riley v Director of Public Prosecutions [2017] 1 WLR 505 distinguished). (See paras.39, 45–46, 57–58, 61.) (3) The Court was not persuaded that it should determine the implied derogation point in the respondent’s notice at a high level of abstraction, having dismissed Xs’ appeal on other grounds. The discretion to hear an appeal where the lis between the parties had gone was to be exercised with caution. In the absence of argument concerning potential frustration of enforcement objectives having been tested where the application of the criminal standard would have a real impact, it was not appropriate to determine the issue (R v Secretary of State for the Home Department, ex p Salem [1999] 1 AC 450, Chit Fai Motors Co Ltd v Commissioner for Transport [2004] 1 HKC 465 applied; Koon Wing Yee v Insider Dealing Tribunal (2008) 11 HKCFAR 170, Competition Commission v Nutanix Hong Kong Ltd [2019] HKCT 2, [2019] 3 HKC 307 considered). (See paras.76, 84, 86, 88–89, 94–96.) Appeal This was an appeal by two individual partners named in the title of the proceedings as the partners of a firm from the decision of Godfrey Lam J, sitting as the President of the Competition Tribunal, that the firm had contravened the “first conduct rule” under the Competition Ordinance (Cap.619) (see [2019] 3 HKLRD 46), and, by respondent’s notice, an appeal by the Competition Commission concerning the applicable standard of proof in proceedings for pecuniary penalties under that Ordinance. Mr Daniel Beard QC, Mr Abraham Chan SC and Mr Byron Chiu, instructed by King & Wood Mallesons, for the applicant. Mr Martin Hui SC, Mr Solomon Lam and Mr Joshua S Kanjanapas Wong, instructed by Henry Yu & Associates, for the 4th respondent. Legislation mentioned in the judgment Competition Ordinance (Cap.619) ss.6, 45, 45(3)(a), (b), 52–55, 93–96, 130, 133, 144, 147, 148, 148(3), 154, 155, 155A, 155A(2)(b), 171, 171(1), 172–175, Sch.3, 3 paras.1(b), (c), (d), (e), (g), (h), (j), (k), (l), (m), (n), (o), (p), (q), Pt.4 Divisions 1, 2, 3, 4, Pt.6 Divisions 2, 3, 5 Competition Tribunal Rules (Cap.619D, Sub.Leg.) s.4 Hong Kong Bill of Rights Ordinance (Cap.383) s.8 art.11, 11(1) Partnership Ordinance (Cap.38) s.11 Rules of the High Court (Cap.4A, Sub.Leg.) O.81 rr.1, 5 221 Competition Commission v W Hing Construction Co Ltd [2021] 3 HKLRD 219

Cases cited in the judgment Beghal v Director of Public Prosecutions [2015] UKSC 49, [2016] AC 88, [2015] 3 WLR 344, [2016] 1 All ER 483, [2015] 2 Cr App R 34 Chit Fai Motors Co Ltd v Commissioner for Transport [2004] 1 HKC 465 Competition Commission v Nutanix Hong Kong Ltd [2019] HKCT 2, [2019] 3 HKC 307 Competition Commission v TH Lee Book Co Ltd [2020] HKCT 12, [2021] 2 HKLRD E2, [2020] HKEC 4147 Hin Lin Yee v HKSAR (2010) 13 HKCFAR 142, [2010] 2 HKLRD 826, [2010] 3 HKC 403 JJB Sports PLC v Office Fair Trading [2004] CAT 17, [2005] Comp AR 29 Koon Wing Yee v Insider Dealing Tribunal (2008) 11 HKCFAR 170, [2008] 3 HKLRD 372 Kot See For v Lam Man Cheung [2021] 2 HKLRD 263, [2021] HKCA 348 Kulemesin v HKSAR (2013) 16 HKCFAR 195, [2014] 1 HKC 1 Napp Pharmaceutical Holding Ltd v Director General of Fair Trading [2002] CAT 1, [2002] ECC 13 R v Secretary of State for the Home Department, ex p Salem [1999] 1 AC 450, [1999] 2 WLR 483, [1999] 2 All ER 42, (1999) 11 Admin LR 194 R v Secretary of State for the Home Department, ex p Simms [2000] 2 AC 115, [1999] 3 WLR 328, [1999] 3 All ER 400, [1999] EMLR 689 R v W Stevenson & Sons (A Partnership) [2008] EWCA Crim 2732008] 2 Cr App R 14 Riley v Director of Public Prosecutions [2016] EWHC 2531 (Admin), [2017] 1 WLR 505 Robinson v Geisel [1894] 2 QB 685 Secretary for Justice v Cheung Kai Yin [2016] 4 HKLRD 367, [2016) 6 HKC 25 Other materials mentioned in the judgment Halsbury's Laws of England (5th ed., 2020), Vol.79, para.84 Hong Kong Civil Procedure 2021 Vol.1, para.81/1/10 Lindley & Banks on Partnership (20th ed.), paras.14-02, 14-43, 14-44 REASONS FOR JUDGMENT Lam V-P (giving the reasons for judgment of the Court) 1. This is an appeal by two individual partners named in the title of the proceedings as the partners of the firm Tai Dou Building [2021] 3 HKLRD 219 HONG KONG LAW REPORTS & DIGEST 222

Contractor (Tai Dou) against the judgment of 17 May 2019, [2019] HKCT 3 (the Judgment) by Godfrey Lam J sitting as the President of the Competition Tribunal. By that judgment, the learned President found that “the 4th respondent” contravened the first conduct rule under the Competition Ordinance (Cap.619) (the Ordinance). In light of the contentions before us, we shall have more to say as to the identity of the 4th respondent at the proceedings below as well as in this appeal. 2. We should also record that Mr Hui SC (who argued the appeal together with Mr Lam and Mr Wong) informed this Court at the hearing of the appeal that he only acted for the two named individuals Mr Cheung and Mr Wong. Counsel also said he had no instructions to act for the partnership firm Tai Dou. 3. Subsequent to the Judgment, the President imposed sanction by way of pecuniary penalties by another judgment of 29 April 2020, [2020] HKCT 1 (the Sanction Judgment). There is an appeal by the Commission in respect of the penalties in CACV 143/2020. That appeal is to be heard later. 4. This Court is only concerned with the appeal against liability in the present appeal. A. Background 5. The relevant factual background can be taken from the Judgment as there is no appeal against those findings, at least as far as Tai Dou is concerned.1 As we shall explain, the focus of Mr Hui is whether the two named individual partners Mr Cheung and Mr Wong should be held liable in light of the absence of personal acts or mens rea constituting the breach of the first conduct rule on their part. 6. At the hearing, Mr Hui also confirmed that he did not challenge the conclusion of the President that the partnership Tai Dou Building Contractor was liable. Counsel confined his arguments in the appeal to the personal liabilities of Mr Cheung and Mr Wong. 7. The case concerned anti-competition arrangements in 2016 of several decoration contractors appointed by the Housing Authority under its Decoration Contractor System to divide the market for three buildings in Phase 1 of On Tat Estate, Kwun Tong which was then a new public housing estate. The findings regarding the anti-competitive scheme by which the breach of the first conduct rule was carried out were set out at [330]–[332] of the Judgment: [330] Between June and November 2016, the respondents, each an Appointed DC in On Tat Estate (Phase 1), made 1 Insofar as there were paragraphs in the Amended Notice of Appeal suggesting that some findings of fact were challenged in a general manner, they have not been pursued at the hearing of the appeal. 223 Competition Commission v W Hing Construction Co Ltd [2021] 3 HKLRD 219 Lam V-P

and gave effect to an agreement — the Floor Allocation Arrangement — with one another, whereby they were each allocated 4 floors in each of the 3 buildings in the pattern set out in §29 above for the purposes of taking up decoration business. They agreed not to actively seek business from tenants on floors allocated to the other respondents. If approached by those tenants, they would direct them to the respondents who had been allocated the relevant floors and, unless the tenants insisted, they would decline business from them. This agreement was implemented, resulting in the pattern of distribution of the flats decorated by the respondents as shown in Appendix 2. Such conduct consisted of the allocation of market for the supply of services and hence constituted ‘serious anti-competitive conduct’. [331] During the same period of time, the respondents made and gave effect to an agreement — the Package Price Arrangement — with one another, whereby they agreed on the prices of the Packages to be put on a joint Flyer for On Tat Estate (Phase 1). Each of them agreed to and contributed financially to the printing of the Flyers. The Flyers were used by the respondents for promotional purposes and distributed to tenants. The prices in the Flyer served as a starting point or anchoring reference point for negotiations with many if not all customers where their requirements included the Package items. In a number of contracts, the prices in the Flyer were or were near the final prices. Such conduct consisted of fixing the price for the supply of services and therefore also constituted ‘serious anti-competitive conduct’. [332] Both the Floor Allocation Arrangement and the Package Price Arrangement had the object of preventing, restricting or distorting competition in Hong Kong. 8. The actual works done by the respondents in accordance with the Floor Allocation Arrangement were set out at [28]–[30] of the judgment: [28] Between June and November 2016, out of the total of 2,582 flats in the 3 buildings, the respondents carried out decoration works for 867 flats. It is not entirely clear how many tenants moved in without decoration, or decorated the flats by themselves or their friends or relatives, or engaged commercial decoration contractors other than the Appointed DCs (outside contractors). [2021] 3 HKLRD 219 HONG KONG LAW REPORTS & DIGEST 224

[29] It has since been discovered that the distribution of the vast majority of the flats decorated by the 10 respondents fell into a strikingly regular pattern. According to this pattern, each respondent worked on 4 and only 4 floors in each of the 3 buildings. The 4 floors each respondent worked on in each building are each 10 floors apart, so that the last digit of the floor number is constant. The pattern is shown in the following table: Floors worked in Shing Tat House Floors worked in Oi Tat House Floors worked in Chun Tat House Appointed DC 8, 18, 28, 38 4, 14, 24, 34 1, 11, 21, 31 W Hing (R1) 9, 19, 29, 39 5, 15, 25, 35 2, 12 , 22, 32 Sun Spark (R2) 10, 20, 30, 40 6, 16, 26, 36 3, 13, 23, 33 Mau Hang (R3) 1, 11, 21, 31 7, 17, 27, 37 4, 14, 24, 34 Tai Dou (R4) 2, 12 , 22, 32 8, 18, 28, 38 5, 15, 25, 35 Kam Kee (R5) 3, 13, 23, 33 9, 19, 29, 39 6, 16, 26, 36 Hip Yick (R6) 4, 14, 24, 34 10, 20, 30, 40 7, 17, 27, 37 Tai Wah (R7) 5, 15, 25, 35 1, 11, 21, 31 8, 18, 28, 38 Wai Sun (R8) 6, 16, 26, 36 2, 12 , 22, 32 9, 19, 29, 39 Wide Project (R9) 7, 17, 27, 37 3, 13, 23, 33 10, 20, 30, 40 Luen Hop (R10) 225 Competition Commission v W Hing Construction Co Ltd [2021] 3 HKLRD 219 Lam V-P

832 of the 867 flats worked by the respondents follow this pattern, while 35 flats do not. … 9. Tai Dou was one of these appointed decoration contractors found by the President to have participated in the anti-competitive conduct. 10. The business of Tai Dou and its organisation was discussed by the President at [324]–[328] of the Judgment: [324] Tai Dou (R4) is a partnership consisting of 4 partners, being the two persons named in the Originating Notice of Application (namely, Cheung Yiu Fai Danny and Wong Tung Hoi) as well as Mr Pacquet Wong and Madam To Suet Chun.[39] It attempted at a very late stage to raise a similar argument but, for the reasons set out in this Tribunal’s Reasons for Decision dated 31 October 2018, was not allowed to do so. In so far as counsel sought in closing submissions to run the sub-contractor defence on behalf of Tai Dou (R4), I consider that the argument is inadmissible. [325] On the basis of its existing Response (filed jointly with the 2nd, 3rd, 6th, 7th, 8th and 10th respondents), Tai Dou (R4) admits that it attended the worship ceremony at the Site Office on 16 June 2016 and that lots were drawn there (though it is averred it was for the purpose of allocating desks in the Site Office). From the evidence, it can be seen that Pacquet Wong, an undisputed partner of Tai Dou (R4), signed the reply accepting the appointment as an Appointed DC, signed the surety bond, signed the Licence, signed and submitted to HKHA a list of staff and workers, attended the briefing session on 20 August 2015 and named KC Ho as the contact person. The evidence shows that those working in On Tat Estate (Phase 1) in the name of Tai Dou (R4) included KC Ho and Ma Yick Yin. [326] A witness statement of KC Ho was originally filed on behalf of Tai Dou (R4), in which he described himself as the General Manager of Tai Dou (R4). In early October 2018, Tai Dou (R4), having replaced its previous lawyers, indicated that it would not be calling KC Ho. The 2nd, 3rd, 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th and 10th respondents then indicated their intention to call him and also filed a witness statement of Ma Yick Yin. Eventually, KC Ho was not called to testify, and his statement is therefore to be disregarded. Ma Yick Yin was called, and said that he considered KC Ho the general manager of Tai Dou (R4), [2021] 3 HKLRD 219 HONG KONG LAW REPORTS & DIGEST 226

that he worked in On Tat Estate (Phase 1) in accordance with KC Ho’s instructions, and that he and the workers used business cards with Tai Dou (R4)’s name. There are also receipts issued to tenants bearing an oval chop stating ‘Tai Dou Building Co’ in both Chinese and English. [327] Despite KC Ho’s absence, based on all the other evidence there is no doubt that KC Ho and the team working there in the name of Tai Dou (R4) had engaged in the Floor Allocation Arrangement and the Package Price Arrangement. Counsel’s argument that there is a possibility that Tai Dou (R4) did not enter into any arrangement with others but simply obtained decoration work from the remaining floors because they were not allocated to any of the other respondents, seems to me, with respect, to be wholly unrealistic. [328] It is clear that the undertaking operating in On Tat Estate (Phase 1) was the partnership Tai Dou. The two named persons each being a partner must be held responsible as persons comprised in the undertaking. Counsel’s argument that there is nothing to show that they personally took part in or were aware of the conduct impugned is beside the point. 11. At footnote 39 at [324], the President noted as follows: It is not clear why only two of the four partners have been named as respondents, but the Commission accepts that as such, only the two named persons can be subjected to any sanctions and orders imposed by the Tribunal in these proceedings. B. The appeal 12. In the context of the present appeal, this Court (Lam V-P and Au JA) held in a judgment of 16 November 2020, [2020] HKCA 930 (the Striking Out Judgment) that it was an abuse of process for the 4th respondent to attempt to revive the sub-contractor defence (which had been held by the President to be inadmissible due to case management reasons) in the appeal when there was no appeal against the President’s case management ruling as set out in the judgment of 31 October 2018, [2018] HKCT 6. Parts of the Notice of Appeal were struck out by the judgment of 16 November 2020. 13. The 4th respondent filed an amended Notice of Appeal on 4 February 2021 to reflect the outcome of the Striking Out Judgment. 227 Competition Commission v W Hing Construction Co Ltd [2021] 3 HKLRD 219 Lam V-P

In the Striking Out Judgment, this Court identified the permissible arguments to be entertained in this appeal at [34], [36] and [37]: [34] In our judgment, any attempt by the 4th Respondent to rely upon the sub-contractor defence without appealing the Dismissal Decision constitutes an abuse of process and should be struck out. Without the sub-contractor defence, and in light of the pleaded case of the 4th Respondent as outlined above, we agree with Mr Chiu that the 4th Respondent should not be permitted to rely on any arguments in the appeal challenging the attribution of the acts of Mr KC Ho to the Partnership by the Tribunal. … [36] The position regarding the other parts of the Notice of Appeal is different. To some extent, the position on the face of the Notice of Appeal was not very clear because of the inherent ambiguity in the reference to ‘the 4th Respondent’: it can either be taken as a reference to the Partnership (viz the firm) or a reference to Mr Danny Cheung and Mr Wong Tung Hoi personally. [37] Based on Mr Lam’s submissions, we understand that the arguments raised in paragraphs 8(b), (c) and 9 are directed not at the finding against the Partnership (the firm), but rather at the finding that the 4th Respondent (i.e. Mr Cheung and Mr TH Wong) should be held liable because of the finding against the Partnership. In that sense, paragraphs 8(b), (c) and 9 do not engage the impermissible challenge of attribution which Mr Cheung and Mr TH Wong are precluded by the Dismissal Decision from advancing in this appeal. C. The identity of the 4th respondent 15. After reading the respective submissions of Mr Hui and Mr Beard QC (who appeared with Mr Chan SC and Mr Chiu for the Commission), this Court discerned that a fundamental difference between the two sides stems from their respective understanding as to who were the 4th respondent in these proceedings. At the hearing, upon query by the Court, Mr Hui intimated that his team only acted for the two named individual partners and as mentioned above had no instruction to act for Tai Dou, the firm. 16. On the other hand, the stance of the Commission is that Tai Dou, the partnership firm, was the 4th respondent and parties had always proceeded on that basis in the Tribunal. [2021] 3 HKLRD 219 HONG KONG LAW REPORTS & DIGEST 228

We agree with the Commission and reject the submissions of Mr Hui that only the two named individual partners were the 4th respondent but not the firm Tai Dou. 18. There had been changes of solicitors acting for the 4th respondent. In the Tribunal and in this appeal, the 4th respondent was represented by different firms of solicitors at different stages. However, at every stage of the proceedings before the Tribunal it was clear to all parties that though Mr Cheung and Mr Wong were also named, the undertaking against which the proceedings were brought by way of the 4th respondent was Tai Dou the firm. The liabilities of the named partners flowed from their capacity as partners of that firm, not in their capacity as individuals distinct from the firm. 19. At the time of the appeal hearing, the 4th respondent was represented by Henry Yu & Associates. This firm of solicitors came on record in this appeal by a Notice of Change of Solicitors of 1 February 2021. 20. Mr Hui only came on record when he signed the Amended Notice of Appeal dated 4 February 2021 after the Striking Out Judgment. 21. His juniors, Mr Lam and Mr Wong, acted for the 4th respondent in the striking out application in this Court on the instructions of Bryan Chan & Co. Bryan Chan & Co were the solicitors on record for the 4th respondent in this appeal by a Notice of Change of Solicitors of 2 October 2019. 22. When the original Notice of Appeal was filed on 14 June 2019, the 4th respondent was represented by another firm of solicitors Chan & Associates with another team of leading and junior counsel. 23. The junior counsel signing the original Notice of Appeal, Ms Ng, was also the counsel who acted for the 4th respondent at the trial and sanction hearing before the Tribunal. She was however instructed by two different solicitor firms: by Bryan Chan & Co at the sanction hearing and by Henry Wan & Yeung at the trial. 24. Another counsel Mr Dong acted for the 4th respondent on instruction from Henry Wan & Yeung at the pre-trial review. The application for amendments of the Response (to enable the 4th respondent to take the sub-contractor defence) was made at that hearing and rejected by the Tribunal in a judgment of 31 October 2018, [2018] HKCT 6 (the Amendment Judgment). 25. Henry Wan & Yeung actually came on record by a Notice of Change of Solicitors on 14 September 2018. Before that, the solicitors acted for the 4th respondent was JCC Cheung & Co. 26. JCC Cheung & Co became solicitors for the 4th respondent on 25 June 2018 by a Notice of Change of Solicitors. Before that, the solicitors on the record for the 4th respondent was Littlewoods. 229 Competition Commission v W Hing Construction Co Ltd [2021] 3 HKLRD 219 Lam V-P

At the hearing before us, after taking instructions from his clients Mr Hui informed this Court that instructions were given by Mr Cheung and Mr Wong to Henry Wan & Yeung and Bryan Chan & Co. However, counsel could not confirm the identity of the person(s) who gave instructions to JCC Cheung & Co and Littlewoods. 28. Whilst the naming of the 4th respondent in the Originating Notice of Application of 14 August 2017 as “Cheung Yiu Fai Danny and Wong Tung Hoi (in partnership trading as [Tai Dou]” and its description at para.4(4) was ambiguous, upon reading this document as a whole and in context, there is no doubt that the proceedings were brought against Tai Dou the firm. Thus, at paras.22–24, it was pleaded that the respondents (including the 4th respondent) were the Appointed Contractors appointed by the Housing Authority and each of them had received letter from it and executed a Licence. Tai Dou was so appointed, received such letter and executed such Licence, not Mr Cheung nor Mr Wong. Paragraph 33(1) referred to the allocation of floors to Tai Dou, not Mr Cheung nor Mr Wong. Paragraphs 37 and 38 referred to the performance of decoration works by the respondents and paras.40 and 44 referred to the use of the flyers by the respondents to promote their services to the tenants: again Tai Dou did so, not Mr Cheung nor Mr Wong. On the whole, the acts and conduct pleaded as contraventions of the first conduct rule were those of Tai Dou, not the acts or conduct of the individuals. 29. The Response of the 4th respondent was in the same document as the Response of the 2nd, 3rd, 6th, 7th, 8th and 10th respondents which was prepared and filed by Littlewoods on 28 September 2017. The Statement of Truth in that document was signed by Mr KC Ho as “General Manager” of Tai Dou. Thus, Tai Dou was regarded as the 4th respondent, not the two named individuals. It is also plain from the reading of the Response that those acting for the 4th respondent understood that Tai Dou (the firm) was the 4th respondent instead of the two named individual partners. At para.19 of the Response, it was pleaded that the respondents (thus including the 4th respondent) agreed to observe the terms of the Licence (which was executed by Tai Dou). At para.22(a), there was the plea that it was more economical and costs saving for the respondents to carry out decoration works for the flats at the same floor and at paras.22(b) and 32 that the respondents would accept and conduct businesses with the tenants. In the context of the 4th respondent, these pleas had to be referring to Tai Dou, not Mr Cheung and Mr Wong who did not as individuals carry out decoration works or accept business at this estate. Paragraph 29(f) referred to the obligation of the respondents as Appointed Contractors and paras.44 and 46 referred to the use of the flyers by [2021] 3 HKLRD 219 HONG KONG LAW REPORTS & DIGEST 230

the respondents. In the context of the 4th respondent, such references had to be taken as referring to Tai Dou rather than Mr Cheung and Mr Wong as individuals. 30. Had it been the belief of Mr Cheung and Mr Wong that they were sued as individuals without having the firm being made a party to the proceedings, their Response would not need to refer to the affairs of the firm. Instead, they should have set out their own lack of participation in the business concerning the decoration works in question. In that case, it would indeed be inappropriate for such response to be verified by a statement of truth made by Mr KC Ho instead of themselves. 31. Not surprisingly, the witness statement of the 4th respondent was made by Mr KC Ho on behalf of Tai Dou and filed with the Tribunal on 19 April 2018: see [7] of the Amendment Judgment. The evidence was prepared on the basis that Tai Dou was the 4th respondent. 32. As mentioned above, there was a late application for amendment of the Response by the 4th respondent to run the sub-contractor defence. It was rejected by the Tribunal in the Amendment Judgment. That application was filed by Henry Wan & Yeung for the 4th respondent. As acknowledged by Mr Hui, at that stage instructions came from Mr Cheung and Mr Wong. The contents of the proposed amended response were set out at [12] and [13] of the Amendment Judgment. In that document, a distinction was drawn between the 4th respondent (which the President understood to be Tai Dou) and its partners. The application was presented on the basis that Tai Dou was the 4th respondent and it was supported by three new witness statements: from Mr Cheung, Mr Wong and another partner Pacquet Wong. 33. At [16] of the Amendment Judgment, the President referred to the explanation put on behalf of Tai Dou as the 4th respondent as regards the delay in making the application. Pacquet Wong, the unnamed partner, authorised Mr KC Ho to handle the defence of the 4th respondent. In [17]–[22], the President further alluded to the involvement of Pacquet Wong (as partner of Tai Dou) being informed of the developments in the litigation by Mr KC Ho. The tenor of the Amendment Judgment clearly bears out that at that stage it was common ground that Tai Dou was the 4th respondent. 34. With the rejection of the amended Response, the trial proceeded on the original Response which, as we have seen, treated Tai Dou as the 4th respondent. Hence, naturally the President regarded Tai Dou to be the 4th respondent in the Judgment, see in particular [324]–[328]. In the sealed judgment of 17 May 2019 (filed on 9 July 2019), it was Tai Dou that was adjudged (as the 4th respondent) to have contravened s.6 of the Ordinance. 231 Competition Commission v W Hing Construction Co Ltd [2021] 3 HKLRD 219 Lam V-P

D. The liabilities of Mr Cheung and Mr Wong as partners of Tai Dou 35. The President explained the practical consideration for naming Mr Cheung and Mr Wong as partners at [303]: [303] While the competition rules target undertakings, in accordance with general legal principles, applications brought in the Tribunal and orders made by the Tribunal are necessarily addressed to legal entities. Thus ss 92–94 of the Ordinance allow the Commission to apply for and the Tribunal to make orders against persons who have contravened or been involved in a contravention of a competition rule. Accordingly, when liability is to be attached for infringement by an undertaking, the infringement must be imputed to one or more person against whom legal proceedings may be instituted and on whom orders including financial penalties may be imposed.2 36. In the Sanction Judgment at [79]–87, the President found it necessary to address the same point in light of the arguments advanced on behalf of Mr Cheung and Mr Wong at the Sanction hearing that they as “salaried partner” and “silent partner” should not be liable for the pecuniary penalty. For present purposes, in light of the submissions of Mr Hui, it would be useful to refer to

In contrast with these two cases, we are not here concerned with criminal offences and mens rea. As explained in the Judgment, while the competition rules apply to undertakings, ss 92–94 of the Ordinance allow the Commission to apply for, and the Tribunal to make, orders against persons who have contravened or been involved in a contravention of a competition rule. ‘Person’ as defined in s 2 of the Ordinance, in addition to the meaning given by s 3 of the Interpretation and General Clauses Ordinance (Cap 1), includes an undertaking. Where a partnership, as an undertaking, has contravened the first conduct rule, it seems to me generally that its partners as such are persons who have contravened the rule. An agreement entered into by a partnership is an agreement to which the partners are 2 Similar analysis was given by the President in the course of closing submissions when he invited submissions from counsel for the 4th respondent on the naming of two instead of all four partners of Tai Dou, see transcript of Day 16 at Appeal Bundle G p.1313–1314, in particular internal pp.20–22. See also the submissions of Mr Beard before the Tribunal on Day 17 at Appeal Bundle G p.1358, internal pp.58–59. [2021] 3 HKLRD 219 HONG KONG LAW REPORTS & DIGEST 232

jointly party. Here, the persons specifically named in the Notice of Application are Mr Cheung and Mr TH Wong in partnership trading as Tai Dou. They were undoubtedly partners of Tai Dou and were proceeded against as such. As partners of Tai Dou, they joined in making and giving effect to the agreements in question which contravened the rule and therefore likewise contravened the rule: cf Clode v Barnes [1974] 1 WLR

  1. Whether the application could have been brought

against the partnership as a ‘person’ without naming any individuals does not strictly arise. 37. In addition to pecuniary penalties, under s.94 the Tribunal can impose other sanctions against a person who has contravened or been involved in a contravention of a competition rule by way of orders specified in Sch.3 to the Ordinance. Such orders include orders restraining or prohibiting some specified acts or conduct3 or orders requiring some specified acts to be done.4 Hence, insofar as the Commission may wish to apply for such orders against any individual partner(s), there is a practical need to name some individuals for each undertaking. 38. It is clear from these paragraphs that the President held Mr Cheung and Mr Wong to be liable for the penalties by virtue of their roles as partners of Tai Dou instead of any personal acts and conducts on their parts as individuals. 39. In our judgment, such legal consequence flowed from the law relating to the liabilities of a partner for the civil obligations of a partnership. 40. Under s.155A of the Ordinance, a pecuniary penalty imposed under s.93 can be enforced in the same manner as a judgment of the Court of First Instance for the payment of money. Subsection (2)(b) further provides that the Registrar is to enforce payment as a judgment debt due to the Registrar. In other words, such pecuniary penalty can be enforced as a civil liability. 41. By reason of s.11 of the Partnership Ordinance (Cap.38), every partner in a firm is liable jointly with the other partners for all debts and obligations of the firm incurred while he is a partner. Thus, Mr Cheung and Mr Wong are jointly liable (together with other partners) for the pecuniary penalty imposed on Tai Dou. 42. Mr Hui submitted that such analysis fails to take account of the criminal nature of the proceedings. Relying on Lindley & Banks on Partnership (20th ed.), para.14-02, R v W Stevenson & Sons [2008] 2 Cr App R 14, [30]–[31], counsel submitted that in the criminal context, partners should be treated as a separate entity 3 See paras.1(b), (d), (g), (j), (l), (m), (q) of Sch.3. 4 See paras.1(c), (e), (h), (k), (n), (o), (p) of Sch.3. 233 Competition Commission v W Hing Construction Co Ltd [2021] 3 HKLRD 219 Lam V-P

from the partnership and in the present case Mr Cheung and Mr Wong were named as individuals and they were the only parties identified as the 4th respondent in the proceedings before the Tribunal. Thus, Mr Hui submitted, the President erred in finding liability on the basis that the 4th respondent was the partnership, Tai Dou. He said though it was possible for the Commission to proceed against Tai Dou, this was not the course adopted and it is now bound by the choice it made when instigating the proceedings. 43. Based on that premise, Mr Hui relied on the presumption for the need to prove mens rea (citing Hin Lin Yee v HKSAR (2010) 13 HKCFAR 142, [10], and Kulemesin v HKSAR (2013) 16 HKCFAR 195, [41], and submitted that there was no evidence to establish the mens rea of Mr Cheung and Mr Wong in the contravention of the first conduct rule as found by the Tribunal. These partners should not be held criminally liable for the acts of another partner without proof of their own requisite mens rea for such contravention, see Riley v Director of Public Prosecutions [2017] 1 WLR 505, [32]. 44. With respect, these submissions are flawed and we cannot accept the same. 45. First and foremost, though the allegations of contravention are, as held by the President, to be classified as criminal charge for the purpose of s.8 art.11 of the Hong Kong Bill of Rights Ordinance (Cap.383) (art.11), it does not follow that the contravention of the first conduct rule is to be regarded as a criminal offence for the purpose of domestic law incorporating the requirement of mens rea as submitted by Mr Hui. Unlike the stricter standard of proof, the requirement of mens rea is not one of the safeguards prescribed by art.11. It is thus a matter of substantive criminal law and it depends on whether the legislature has created a statutory offence of contravention of the first conduct rule. 46. As submitted by Mr Beard, it is legally possible for such allegations to be determined in civil proceedings (as classified under domestic law) notwithstanding the attraction of art.11 protection based on the autonomous human right definition of criminal charge, see Secretary for Justice v Cheung Kai Yin [2016] 4 HKLRD 367, [36] and [37]. 47. In that case, this Court held at [25] that the applicability of a stricter standard of proof (by reason of the safeguard under art.11) is a separate question from determining if the proceedings is essentially criminal in character as a matter of domestic law. 48. Likewise, the attraction of the safeguards under art.11 (which guarantees the procedural fairness of a trial on a criminal charge by way of human right protection) is a distinct question from determining if the Ordinance has created an offence of contravention of the first conduct rule with all the incidental characteristics of a [2021] 3 HKLRD 219 HONG KONG LAW REPORTS & DIGEST 234

criminal offence. The latter is essentially a question of statutory construction. 49. Adopting such approach, it is plain to us that the Ordinance does not create an offence of contravention of the first conduct rule. The only criminal offences in the Ordinance are those specified in ss.52–55 and ss.172–175. Contravention of the first conduct rule is not included in those parts of the Ordinance. It is also provided specifically in s.171(1) that criminal proceedings for an offence under the Ordinance may not be brought in the Tribunal. Persons charged with such offences would be prosecuted in the criminal courts. It is also pertinent to note that the prosecution of such offences is not within the scope of function and power of the Commission under ss.130 and 133 of the Ordinance. 50. In contrast, proceedings for contravention of the first conduct rule must be brought in the Tribunal and application for pecuniary penalty is only to be brought by the Commission, see ss.92, 108 and 109 of the Ordinance. 51. Subject to modifications in the Competition Tribunal Rules (Cap.619D, Sub.Leg.) (the Rules), proceedings in the Tribunal are to follow the practice and procedure of the Court of First Instance in the exercise of its civil jurisdiction: see s.144 of the Ordinance and s.4 of the Rules (which provide for the application of the Rules of the High Court (Cap.4A, Sub.Leg.) to proceedings in the Tribunal). The appeal mechanism as set out in ss.154 and 155 is similar to the one for appeals from a civil judgment of the Court of First Instance, with leave requirement for interlocutory appeals. 52. Thus, there cannot be any prosecution by the Secretary for Justice in a criminal court in respect of the contravention of the first conduct rule. 53. Sections 45 and 148(3) of the Ordinance which provide for inadmissibility of answers given under compulsion in subsequent proceedings refer to criminal proceedings (under s.45(3)(b)) and proceedings for pecuniary penalty (under s.45(3)(a)) separately. Thus, the legislature did not regard proceedings for pecuniary penalty as criminal proceedings. 54. As we have already mentioned, the pecuniary penalty ordered by the Tribunal shall, as provided under s.155A, be enforced in the same way as a civil judgment. 55. As stated in the preamble to the Ordinance, the purpose of the legislation is to prohibit conduct that prevents, restricts or distorts competition and to prohibit mergers that substantially lessen competition. In respect of a contravention of the first conduct rule, the Ordinance provides various options and means to achieve such objective by way of enforcement actions by the Commission: 235 Competition Commission v W Hing Construction Co Ltd [2021] 3 HKLRD 219 Lam V-P

(a) Acceptance of a commitment by the Commission from a person and the enforcement of such commitment under Division 1 of Pt.4 of the Ordinance; (b) Issuance of infringement notices by the Commission under Division 2 of Pt.4 of the Ordinance offering not to bring proceedings on condition that the persons involved make a commitment to comply with the requirements of the notice; (c) The Commission may make a leniency agreement with a person in exchange for his co-operation in an investigation or in proceedings under Division 3 of Pt.4 of the Ordinance; (d) The Commission may under Division 4 of Pt.4 of the Ordinance issue a warning notice to an undertaking requiring it to cease its contravening conduct and not to repeat the same; (e) The Commission may apply to the Tribunal for pecuniary penalty under Division 2 of Pt.6 of the Ordinance; (f) Under s.94 in Division 3 of Pt.6, the Tribunal, whether or not it makes an order for pecuniary penalty, can make other types of order as specified in Sch.3 to the Ordinance; (g) Under s.95 in Division 3 of Pt.6, the Tribunal can also make interim orders pending its determination of an application under s.94; and (h) Under Division 5 of Pt.6, the Commission can apply to the Tribunal for disqualification order against a person to debar such person from being a director of a company or in any way be concerned or take part in the promotion, formation or management of a company for a specified period not exceeding 5 years if such person is a director of company which has contravened a competition rule and such person’s conduct as director makes him unfit. 56. Options (a)–(d) are enforcement options in the hands of the Commission and cannot be regarded as actions in prosecuting a criminal offence. As regards options (e)–(h), there will be proceedings in the Tribunal. Since the Tribunal does not have any criminal jurisdiction (as it has been made clear in s.171), the applications for such relief cannot be regarded as the prosecution of a criminal offence. 57. Reading the Ordinance as a whole, the contravention of the first conduct rule is not regarded as a criminal offence in the statutory scheme to combat anti-competitive conduct. This accords with the conclusions reached by the President in Competition Commission v TH Lee Book Co Ltd [2020] HKCT 12, [2021] 2 HKLRD E2, [2020] HKEC 4147, [7], and in the Sanction Judgment at [129]–[133]. [2021] 3 HKLRD 219 HONG KONG LAW REPORTS & DIGEST 236

There is therefore no basis for Mr Hui to import the requirement of mens rea on the part of the individual partners into proceedings for pecuniary penalty under s.93. There is no room for the application of the principle in R v W Stevenson & Sons and Riley v Director of Public Prosecutions (which concerned convictions and trials of criminal offences) and our analysis above5 as to the civil nature of the liabilities of each partner for the acts of the firm is not undermined by that case. 59. Lest it be thought that the President had not considered the state of knowledge of Tai Dou as to the anti-competition arrangements, such suggestion is refuted by a reference to [325]–[327] of the Judgment. In particular, the President made this finding at [327]: [327] Despite KC Ho’s absence, based on all the other evidence there is no doubt that KC Ho and the team working there in the name of Tai Dou (R4) had engaged in the Floor Allocation Arrangement and the Package Price Arrangement. Counsel’s argument that there is a possibility that Tai Dou (R4) did not enter into any arrangement with others but simply obtained decoration work from the remaining floors because they were not allocated to any of the other respondents, seems to me, with respect, to be wholly unrealistic. 60. Before us, Mr Hui did not challenge this finding and he accepted that there is no basis for disturbing the President’s conclusion on liability against Tai Dou. 61. Hence, with our rejection of the submission that the proceedings involved a trial of a criminal offence, it is plain that Mr Hui’s contention based on lack of finding of mens rea on the part of Mr Cheung and Mr Wong has no merit. E. Order 81 Rule 1 62. Coming back to the naming of the 4th respondent, Mr Hui referred to a commentary in Hong Kong Civil Procedure 2021, Vol.1 at para.81/1/10 which suggested that because the liability of partners is joint and not several, “a suit by or against an ordinary partnership would have been defective for want of parties unless all the partners were before the court”. 63. It follows, Mr Hui submitted, that the Commission could not have been suing in respect of the joint liability stemming from the acts of the Tai Dou the firm since it was conceded by Mr Beard before the Tribunal that the Commission was not proceeding against 5 At [39]–[41] above. 237 Competition Commission v W Hing Construction Co Ltd [2021] 3 HKLRD 219 Lam V-P

the other two unnamed partners.6 Therefore, the Commission was actually suing the two named partners as individuals regarding their own personal involvement in respect of the contravention of the first conduct rule. 64. With respect, we cannot accept these submissions. 65. Firstly, such submission ignored the reality as discussed in Section C above. All parties had proceeded in the Tribunal on the basis that Tai Dou the firm was the 4th respondent and Mr Cheung and Mr Wong were proceeded against by virtue of their capacity as partners of Tai Dou. In such circumstances, if there were irregularities in the naming of the 4th respondent, we see no difficulty in granting leave for such irregularities to be rectified insofar as it is necessary to do justice between the parties in light of the fact that Tai Dou had actually been party to the proceedings in substance and those acting for Mr Cheung and Mr Wong in the Tribunal were fully aware of the nature of the claims against them. 66. In so saying, we have not forgotten the concession of Mr Beard on Day 17 which was also taken up by the President at footnote 39 of the Judgment. However, the concession seemed to have been made on the basis it is legally permissible to sue in respect of the liability of the firm with the naming of some but not all the partners. Likewise, the President proceeded on that basis in the Judgment and the Sanction Judgment. As far as we are aware, no point had been taken before the Tribunal that one cannot pursue an application in respect of the liability of the firm without proceeding against all the partners. 67. This bring us to our second ground for rejecting Mr Hui’s submissions. As a matter of law, there is no rigid rule that in advancing a claim on a joint liability the plaintiff or applicant must join all the parties who were jointly liable to the proceedings. However, if objection is taken by a defendant that there were other parties who were jointly liable, the court may consider if such other persons should be joined as parties to the proceedings in the interest of justice. Thus, in Robinson v Geisel [1894] 2 QB 685, the English Court of Appeal refused to grant a stay of the action against some but not all of the joint guarantors because the plaintiff had done everything in his power to serve the remaining joint guarantor without success. In the context of legal proceedings against a partnership, it means that a plaintiff can sue some but not all the partners in respect of the liabilities arising from the business of the firm. Depending on the circumstances of the case, on the application of the defendants, the court may direct the other partners to be joined as parties, see Halsbury's Laws of England (5th ed., 2020), Vol.79, para.84; Lindley & Banks on Partnership (20th ed.), 6 As recorded in the transcript of Day 17 at Appeal Bundle G p.1358, internal p.58. [2021] 3 HKLRD 219 HONG KONG LAW REPORTS & DIGEST 238

paras.14-43 and 14-44. But the cause of action would not be defeated by non-joinder of parties. 68. As Mr Cheung and Mr Wong did not complain about non-joinder of the other two partners in the Tribunal and there was no application for staying the proceedings on that ground, it is not necessary for us to consider whether in the present case the other two partners should have been joined if such application were made. It suffices for us to hold that in light of the above analysis, Mr Cheung and Mr Wong cannot now rely on the omission to name the other two partners as a ground for challenging the finding of the Tribunal against them in respect of the contravention by Tai Dou. 69. The President did not find it necessary to address the question whether orders could be made against a firm under ss.93–96 as a “person” without naming any individuals. We are sure that the President has not overlooked O.81 r.1 which, as far as we can see, is applicable to proceedings in the Competition Tribunal by reason of s.4 of the Competition Tribunal Rules as there is nothing those rules negating such application. As explained by the President,7 the definition of “person” in the Ordinance is wide enough to cover a partnership. Hence, in terms of proceedings in the Tribunal in general, it is permissible to name a partnership as a respondent without naming all the partners. The effect would be the same as the naming of a firm in civil proceedings in the High Court, viz all the partners are treated to have been joined as respondents. 70. When the individual partners are not named, the enforcement of a judgment against the firm would be subject to the conditions laid down under O.81 r.5. 71. We believe that the President had the practicalities of enforcement of orders other than that of pecuniary penalty in mind (as alluded to by us at [37]) when he eschewed expressing a view on the feasibility of suing a firm without naming the partners. 72. In the present case, as far as we are aware, the Tribunal has only imposed sanction by way of pecuniary penalty. In such context, we cannot see any difficulty regarding enforcement pursuant to O.81 r.5 even if the individual partners were not named. 73. Mr Hui submitted that it was unjust that the Commission only targeted against Mr Cheung and Mr Wong in seeking pecuniary penalty. With respect, counsel failed to take account of: (a) As the penalty was ordered against the 4th respondent, the assets of the firm Tai Dou would be subject to execution; (b) Even assuming that enforcement actions were taken against the personal estates of Mr Cheung and Mr Wong, they would 7 At 87 of the Sanction Judgment, cited at [36] above. 239 Competition Commission v W Hing Construction Co Ltd [2021] 3 HKLRD 219 Lam V-P

have the right to seek indemnity or contribution from their partners under the general law of partnership; and (c) As partners of Tai Dou, there is no injustice in sanction being imposed against Mr Cheung and Mr Wong. F. Disposal of the appeal 74. For the above reasons, we dismissed the appeal with costs at the hearing on 5 May 2021. G. The Respondent’s Notice 75. By the Respondent’s Notice, the Commission asked this Court to reverse the President’s ruling on the standard of proof in proceedings for pecuniary penalty. In Competition Commission v Nutanix Hong Kong Ltd [2019] HKCT 2, [2019] 3 HKC 307, the President held that the standard of proof is proof beyond reasonable doubt. That judgment was handed down on the same date as the Judgment. At [39] of the Judgment, the President adopted the same view in the present case. The Commission sought to argue that the standard of proof should be the civil standard of balance of probabilities with cogent evidence being required commensurably with the seriousness of the allegations. 76. Notwithstanding the sustained efforts of Mr Beard, we were not persuaded that we should determine this issue in this appeal when we had already concluded that the appeal by Mr Cheung and Mr Wong should be dismissed on the other grounds set out above. As the Commission is understandably anxious to have the question of standard of proof to be reconsidered at the appellant level, we shall explain in greater detail the reasons for our refusal to determine the issue in this appeal. 77. We have read the judgment in Competition Commission v Nutanix Hong Kong Ltd and skeleton submissions of Mr Beard and Mr Hui and discussed the same amongst ourselves before the hearing. Our preliminary view was as follows. 78. Since it is common ground that proceedings for pecuniary penalty involved a determination of criminal charge for the purpose of art.11, the implication of art.11(1) on standard of proof as explained by the Court of Final Appeal in Koon Wing Yee v Insider Dealing Tribunal (2008) 11 HKCFAR 170 has to be considered. As mentioned in the course of hearing, one should start from the position that in order to be art.11 compliant criminal standard of proof is the norm for the determination of criminal charges. 79. It is possible to have a statute providing otherwise if the relaxation of standard of proof can be justified according to the proportionality test. However, it is also common ground that the Ordinance does not contain any provision which explicitly spells [2021] 3 HKLRD 219 HONG KONG LAW REPORTS & DIGEST 240

out the standard of proof for penalty proceedings. Hence, one must first consider if the Ordinance has laid down by necessary implication that the standard of proof should be the civil standard before one considers the proportionality of such relaxation. 80. In short, if one cannot conclude by way of statutory interpretation that the Ordinance has provided for the civil standard to apply, the criminal standard should be applicable by virtue of the principle of legality as explained by Lord Hoffmann in R v Secretary of State for the Home Department, ex p Simms [2000] 2 AC 115,

  1. If it is held that criminal standard of proof applies as a matter

of statutory interpretation, no issue of proportionality arises. 81. The relevant approach for determining by way of statutory construction if a fundamental right like the one provided for under art.11(1) has been impliedly abrogated was discussed by the Supreme Court in Beghal v Director of Public Prosecutions [2016] AC 88 and recently applied by this Court in Kot See For v Lam Man Cheung [2021] 2 HKLRD 263. At [42] of the latter case, the Court held that purposive construction should consider whether the statutory objective would be nullified if full effect is given to the fundamental right. 82. The question of implied abrogation or derogation was addressed by the President at [63]–[67] of Competition Commission v Nutanix Hong Kong Limited. He could not find such implication from the fact that civil procedure is adopted for the proceedings and the legislative materials. At [68]–[71], the President summarised the other points canvassed by the Commission but held that they were of no avail when there is no express provision or necessary implication for the application of civil standard. 83. One of these points was the difficulty in meeting the criminal standard of proof in the potentially complex and technical nature of the issues in competition proceedings, see [68]–[69]. On our reading of Mr Beard’s skeleton submissions, counsel relied strongly on this point to contend that the Ordinance has relaxed the standard of proof by necessary implication by virtue of the potential frustration of effective enforcement of competition law by a criminal standard of proof. 84. Whilst we can see that there is a reasonably arguable basis (and we put it no higher than that) for suggesting the President might not have given sufficient consideration to the potential frustration of effective enforcement in assessing if there is derogation by necessary implication (since he did not discuss this in the context of addressing the issue of necessary implication at [68]–[71] and this could be attributable to how the matter was argued before him by another leading counsel in Nutanix), we find it very difficult to assess the validity of this contention based on consideration of potential frustration on a high level of abstraction. With due respect, 241 Competition Commission v W Hing Construction Co Ltd [2021] 3 HKLRD 219 Lam V-P

we do not think it is sufficient for us to adopt some passages from the decisions of the UK Competition Appeal Tribunal8 or a textbook9 on competition law as making good this contention. 85. We are not suggesting Mr Beard intended to invite us to take such a course. Counsel indicated that he would need to take us through the scheme of the Ordinance and the elements that the Commission would have to establish in respect of each type of anti-competition conducts and the different types of evidence the Tribunal would have to assess. 86. Whilst we would not doubt that, with his immense experience in this field, Mr Beard could provide the Court with able assistance, and in so doing, the actual facts and evidence in the present appeal are also relevant to our assessment of whether this appeal afforded a good opportunity to embark on such exercise. On the facts, the President was able to conclude that the contravention of the first conduct rule was proved on the criminal standard. We could discern nothing in the evidence that had been adduced in the trial which can give rise to potential frustration of the enforcement objective because the criminal standard of proof was applied. 87. Mr Beard urged upon us that there are other cases in which the different standards of proof could make a difference, not only in respect of actual penalty proceedings but also in respect of the Commission’s investigation and decisions on enforcement options. 88. We took such submission into account. However, in the end, we came to the clear conclusion that it would be much better for the argument of potential frustration of enforcement objective to be tested in an actual case where the application of criminal standard of proof would have a real impact. And it would also be much better if the Competition Tribunal (with its expertise in handling competition cases) have had the opportunity of dealing with this issue squarely and fairly with regard to actual (instead of conceptual or notional) evidential assessment in regard to specific pieces of evidence on a particular competition issue before the point is considered by the Court of Appeal. 89. In this connection, we disagreed with Mr Beard’s concern as to the futility of re-arguing the issue of standard of proof before the Competition Tribunal in light of the judgments in Nutanix and the present case. As we have highlighted above, it would appear that the angle of potential frustration of enforcement objective had not been fully canvassed, perhaps not surprisingly in light of the evidence and the contentious issues in these cases. 90. Mr Beard also advanced arguments based on the statutory scheme of the Ordinance and its similarities with overseas competition regimes where civil standard of proof is applied. 8 Napp Pharmaceutical Holding Ltd v Director General of Fair Trading [2002] CAT 1; JJB Sports PLC v Office Fair Trading [2004] CAT 17. 9 Whish & Bailey, Competition Law (9th ed.). [2021] 3 HKLRD 219 HONG KONG LAW REPORTS & DIGEST 242

However, there are also some special features in our Ordinance which we have highlighted in our directions of 4 May 2021: (a) There is no parallel regime for criminal offence in respect of anti-competitive conduct as in England; and (b) In ss.45, 147 and 148, proceedings for pecuniary penalties are treated in the same manner as proceedings for other criminal offences under the Ordinance. 91. Also, at the time when the Competition Bill was debated, the legislature (and the administration which put forward the bill) was aware of the Court of Final Appeal’s judgment in Koon Wing Yee v Insider Dealing Tribunal. Though the President attached little weight to it, the criminal standard of proof and Koon Wing Yee had been alluded to during the legislative debates. Notwithstanding this, the legislature did not include any specific provision in the Ordinance to stipulate that civil standard of proof is to be applied. 92. We do not express any view on these matters as we have not heard counsel on whether these features would affect, and if so how, the assessment of the implied derogation point. However, these may require further research and arguments than those which have already been placed before us. 93. Mr Beard relied on the observations of the Ma CJHC (as he then was) in Chit Fai Motors Co Ltd v Commissioner for Transport [2004] 1 HKC 465, [20], to invite this Court to address the issue of standard of proof notwithstanding that we had been able to determine the appeal without doing so. In particular, counsel emphasised that this is a recurrent issue which has great public importance in relation to the development of competition law in Hong Kong. 94. We respectfully agree with Ma CJHC that this Court still retains a discretion to hear an appeal even though the lis between the parties has gone (whether by way of settlement or determination on other grounds). We also accept that there are cases where it is appropriate to exercise such discretion because of the great public interest in having the issue determined at the appellate level. However, the Court must still consider whether the appeal is the appropriate occasion to determine such important issue. 95. As highlighted by Lord Slynn of Hadley in R v Secretary of State for the Home Department, ex p Salem [1999] 1 AC 450, 457 (and cited by Ma CJHC at sub-para.(3) in [20] of Chit Fai), even in the public law context, the discretion must be exercised with caution. After all, it would not be in the public interest to have a highly controversial but important point determined when the Court does not find the underlying materials before it provides a solid basis for assessing the competing arguments. 243 Competition Commission v W Hing Construction Co Ltd [2021] 3 HKLRD 219 Lam V-P

Though the question of standard of proof, as analysed above, can be said to be a matter of statutory construction, for the reasons we have given above, the implied derogation point is not an issue which we found appropriate to be determined in the present appeal. We therefore declined to embark on such course. Certificate for three counsel 97. We have already ordered Mr Cheung and Mr Wong to pay the costs of the Commission in this appeal. The outstanding issue is whether there should be certificate for three counsel. 98. In light of our above reasons for determining the appeal and declining to address the question of standard of proof, we would only give the Commission certificate for two counsel. Reported by Robert Drake [2021] 3 HKLRD 219 HONG KONG LAW REPORTS & DIGEST 244

842 HKSAR and Chan Wai Yip Bokhary, Chan and Ribeiro PJJ, Litton and Sir Anthony Mason NPJJ Final Appeal No 4 of 2010 (Criminal) 25 November, 13 December 2010 Criminal law and procedure — conspiracy to defraud — auction by public body — restricted auction of cooked food stalls — secret pre-auction allotment and agreement by defendants not to bid against each other for stalls in order to knock down to reserve price — “knock out” agreements, that is agreements to keep price down, were lawful — valid and enforceable contract could not itself be “dishonest” for purposes of criminal conspiracy to defraud Ds were convicted of conspiracy to defraud. Ds, tenants of cooked food stalls, were given priority to bid for new stalls in a restricted auction held exclusively for them by the Food and Environmental Hygiene Department (FEHD). The reserve price for stalls was fixed at 75% of the market rent. Ds pre-allotted stalls amongst themselves and agreed that no one else would bid for the same stall. At the auction, there was no competitive bidding and each stall was knocked down to the sole bidder at the reserve price. Ds’ appeal against conviction was allowed by the Court of Appeal, which held that an agreement not to compete at an auction was valid and enforceable. At issue was whether a secret agreement between potential bidders not to compete at an auction, or such an agreement followed by participation by such bidders at the auction, fell within the formulation of the common law offence of conspiracy to defraud as formulated in Mo Yuk Ping v HKSAR (2007) 10 HKCFAR 386, with the focus on “dishonest means”. Held, dismissing the appeal, that: (Per Sir Anthony Mason NPJ) (1) A long line of English authorities, which went back almost 160 years, was to the effect that “knock out” agreements, that is agreements to keep the price down, were lawful. A contract which was valid and enforceable could not itself be “dishonest” for the purposes of criminal conspiracy to defraud. Not only had the relevant decisions stood for a very long time, they almost certainly had been taken to represent the law of conspiracy in Hong Kong. If there was to be a change, then it was a matter entirely for the legislature (Galton v Emuss [1844] 1 Coll 243, Re Carew’s Estate [1858] 26 Beav 187, Heffer v Martyn (1867) 36 LJ Ch 373, Jones v North (1874–75) LR 19 Eq 426, Rawlings v General Trading Co [1921] 1 KB 635, Cohen v Roche [1927] 1 KB

(2010) 13 HKCFAR 843 HKSAR v Chan Wai Yip Litton NPJ 169, Pallant v Morgan [1953] Ch 43, Harrop v Thompson & Another [1975] 1 WLR 545, Norris v Government of the United States of America [2008] 1 AC 920 applied). (See paras.54–75.) (2) “Knock-out” agreements in restraint of trade might be void and unenforceable as between the parties, but not illegal. So long as traders individually or collectively were pursuing their own business interests without infringing the rights of others or intending to do them harm, that pursuit was legitimate, even if, by deliberately lowering prices, it drove others out of business (Mogul Steamship Co Ltd v McGregor Gow & Co (1888) LR 21 QBD 544 (CA), Mogul Steamship Co Ltd v McGregor Gow & Co [1892] AC 25 (HL), Rawlings v General Trading Co [1921] 1 KB 635 applied; R v De Berenger (1814) 3 M & S 67, Scott v Brown, Doering, McNab & Co [1892] 2 QB 724 explained). (See paras.71–73.) (3) The FEHD could protect itself from “knock out” agreements by fixing a reserve (and not disclosing it) and reserving the right to bid and withdraw (Harrop v Thompson [1975] 1 WLR 545 applied). (See para.76.)  (Per Litton NPJ) (4) Where an agreement not to compete in an auction had no deceptive element, the fact that it was made in secret did not by itself render it dishonest in law: the potential purchasers had not set out to do something lawful by unlawful means. Persons attending an auction owed no obligation to the vendor to compete with each other; nor were they required by law to ensure the vendor achieved the highest possible price. Further, there was no suggestion that the pre-allotment arrangement was aimed at harming the FEHD’s economic interests. Ds were looking to their own economic interests (Rawlings v General Trading Co [1921] 1 KB 635 applied). (See paras.16, 24–27.) 刑法與刑事訴訟程序— 串謀欺詐罪— 公營機構舉行投標— 局限性競 投熟食檔位— 各名被告人於競投進行前私下分配檔位,並協定不會互 相就檔位出價,以期用底價投得檔位— 此等「壓價」協議乃屬合法— 就串謀欺詐的刑事罪行而言,有效和可予以強制執行的合約本身不能構 成「不誠實」 本案各名被告人經原審後被判串謀欺詐罪成立。案情指他們是各個熟食 檔位的租戶,而食物環境衛生署(下稱「食環署」)專為他們舉行一場局 限性投標,讓他們可優先競投新的熟食檔位。各個檔位的底價,定為市 值租金的75%。投標進行前,每名被告人自行認投一個檔位,而他們協 定無人會競投同一個檔位。投標過程中,每一個檔位均無人出價競投, 結果由唯一承價人以底價投得。各名被告人不服定罪,提出上訴,而上 訴法庭判處各人上訴得直,並裁定各人同意不在投標過程中出價競投的 協議有效和可予以強制執行。控方不服裁決,上訴至終審法院,所涉爭 議點為:參與投標人士私下協定不在投標過程中出價競投的秘密協議或 該等人士訂立該等協議後參與投標,是否合乎Mo Yuk Ping v HKSAR HKSAR v Chan Wai Yip

844 HONG KONG COURT OF FINAL APPEAL REPORTS (2010) 13 HKCFAR (2007) 10 HKCFAR 386一案對普通法下「串謀欺詐」罪行的表述,特別 是當中關於「不誠實方式」的元素? 裁決—駁回上訴(判詞由非常任法官梅師賢爵士作出): (1) 根據過往近160年的英國案例典據,「壓價」協議乃屬合法。就串謀 欺詐的刑事罪行而言,有效和可予以強制執行的合約本身不能構成 「不誠實」。有關的案例典據不但歷史悠久,而且幾乎肯定已被視 為代表關於串謀罪的香港法律。假如要改變這方面的法律,則須 由立法機關全權決定如何進行(引用Galton v Emuss [1844] 1 Coll  243,Re Carew’s Estate [1858] 26 Beav 187,Heffer v Martyn (1867) 36 LJ Ch 373,Jones v North (1874—75) LR 19 Eq 426,Rawlings v General Trading Co [1921] 1 KB 635,Cohen v Roche [1927] 1 KB 169,Pallant v Morgan [1953] Ch 43,Harrop v Thompson & Another [1975] 1 WLR 545,Norris v Government of the United States of America [2008] 1 AC 920)。(見第54至75段) (2) 用以限制貿易的「壓價」協議雖然在協議各方之間可能無效和不可 予以強制執行,但並非不合法。從商人士個別或集體地謀求本身 商業利益的做法,只要是沒有侵犯他人權利或意圖損害他人權益, 便屬合法,即使從商人士藉著故意降價而令其他競爭對手無法生 存,情況亦然(引用Mogul Steamship Co Ltd v McGregor Gow & Co (1888) LR 21 QBD 544 (CA),Mogul Steamship Co Ltd v McGregor Gow & Co [1892] AC 25 (HL),Rawlings v General Trading Co [1921] 1 KB 635;R v De Berenger (1814) 3 M & S 67,Scott v Brown, Doering, McNab & Co [1892] 2 QB 724予以解釋)。(見第71至73 段) (3) 為免受「壓價」協議影響,食環署可釐定而不披露投標項目的底 價,以及保留出價和撤回投標項目的權利(引用Harrop v Thompson [1975] 1 WLR 545)。(見第76段) (判詞由非常任法官烈顯倫作出) (4) 對於不在投標過程中出價競投的協議,假如該協議不帶有欺詐成 分,則該協議即使是秘密達成,本身也不會令該協議構成法律所 指的不誠實:準買家並未開始以不合法方式做合法的事情。出席 投標的人士並不對賣家負有互相競投的責任;法律亦沒有要求該等 人士確保賣家以可行範圍內的最高價格賣出投標項目。此外,案中 沒有證據顯示各名被告人於投標進行前自行認投檔位的用意是損害 食環署的經濟利益。各名被告人所關注的,不外是本身的經濟利益 (引用Rawlings v General Trading Co [1921] 1 KB 635)。(見第16、 24至27段) Mr Kevin Zervos SC, Director of Public Prosecutions, Mr Wesley Wong, Deputy Director of Public Prosecutions, and Mr Michael Wong, Senior Public Prosecutor (Manager), for the applicant. Mr Martin Lee SC, Mr Siu Him Lee and Ms Bonnie Tam, instructed by JCC Cheung & Co, for the third, fifth to ninth, thirteenth, fifteenth to seventeenth respondents. Mr Kenny Chan, instructed by Liu, Chan & Lam for the fourth, tenth and eleventh respondents.

(2010) 13 HKCFAR 845 HKSAR v Chan Wai Yip Litton NPJ HKSAR v Chan Wai Yip Mr Gibson Shaw, instructed by Lo, Wong & Tsui for the twelfth respondent. The first, second and fourteenth respondents in person (present). Legislation mentioned in the judgment Auctions (Bidding Agreements) Act 1927 [England] s.1(1) Crimes Ordinance (Cap.200) s.159C(6) Hong Kong Court of Final Appeal Ordinance (Cap.484) s.32(2) Magistrates Ordinance (Cap.227) s.118(1)(d) Prevention of Bribery Ordinance (Cap.201) s.7 Cases cited in the judgment Carew’s Estate, Re [1858] 26 Beav 187, (1861) 54 ER 894 Cohen v Roche [1927] 1 KB 169 Galton v Emuss (1844) 1 Coll 243, 63 ER 402 Harrop v Thompson [1975] 1 WLR 545, [1975] 2 All ER 94 Heffer v Martyn [1867] 36 LJ Ch 373 Jones v North (1874–1875) LR 19 Eq 426 Mo Yuk Ping v HKSAR (2007) 10 HKCFAR 386, [2007] 3 HKLRD 750, [2007] 4 HKC 107 Mogul Steamship Co Ltd v McGregor, Gow & Co (1889) 23 QBD 598 Mogul Steamship Co Ltd v McGregor, Gow & Co [1892] AC 25 Norris v Government of the USA [2008] UKHL 16, [2008] 1 AC 920, [2008] 2 WLR 673, [2008] 2 All ER 1103 Pallant v Morgan [1953] Ch 43, [1952] 2 All ER 951 R v De Berenger (1814) 3 M & S 67, 105 ER 536, [1814–23] All ER Rep 513 R v Ghosh [1982] 1 QB 1053, [1982] 3 WLR 110, [1982] 2 All ER 689 R v Goldshield Group Plc [2008] UKHL 17, [2009] 1 WLR 458, [2009] 2 All ER 737 Rawlings v General Trading Co [1920] 3 KB 30 Rawlings v General Trading Co [1921] 1 KB 635 Scott v Brown, Doering, McNab & Co [1892] 2 QB 724 Scott v Metropolitan Police Commissioner [1975] AC 819, [1974] 3 WLR 741, [1974] 3 All ER 1032 Shum Kwok Sher v HKSAR (2002) 5 HKCFAR 381, [2002] 2 HKLRD 793, [2002] 3 HKC 117 Wai Yu Tsang v R [1992] 1 AC 269, [1991] 3 WLR 100, [1991] 4 All ER 664 Welham v Director of Public Prosecutions [1961] AC 103, [1960] 2 WLR 669, [1960] 1 All ER 805 Wickens v Evans (1829) 3 Y & J 318, 148 ER 1201 Cases in the List of Authorities not cited in the judgment A-G for Northern Ireland’s Reference (No 1 of 1975), Re [1977] AC 105, [1976] 3 WLR 235, [1976] 2 All ER 937

846 HONG KONG COURT OF FINAL APPEAL REPORTS (2010) 13 HKCFAR A-G of the Commonwealth of Australia v Adelaide Steamship Co Ltd [1913] AC 781, [1911–13] All ER Rep 1120 Attorney-General v Suen Chun Kwong [1980] HKLR 543 Chou Shih Bin v HKSAR (2005) 8 HKCFAR 70, [2005] 1 HKLRD 838 Crofter Hand Woven Harris Tweed Co Ltd v Veitch [1942] AC 435, [1942] 1 All ER 142 Hamlyn & Co v Wood & Co [1891] 2 QB 488, [1891–94] All ER Rep 168 HKSAR v Chan Shu Hung [2001–2003] HKCLRT 325 HKSAR v Ho Yau Yin (2010) 13 HKCFAR 217, [2010] 4 HKC 160 HKSAR v Tse So So (2007) 10 HKCFAR 368, [2007] 3 HKLRD 932 HKSAR v Wong Shiu Fong (unrep., HCMA 1085/2003, [2004] 1 HKLRD A7) Johnson v Nobbs (unrep., Court of Appeal, 9 March 1983) Li Man Wai v Secretary for Justice (2003) 6 HKCFAR 466, [2003] 3 HKLRD 1037 Mogul Steamship Co Ltd v McGregor, Gow & Co (1888) 21 QBD 544 Moorcock, The (1889) 14 PD 64, [1886–90] All ER Rep 530 Norris v Government of the USA [2007] 1 WLR 1730, [2007] 2 All ER 29 North Western Salt Co Ltd v Electrolytic Alkali Co Ltd [1913] 3 KB 422 R v Arrowsmith [1975] QB 678, [1975] 2 WLR 484, [1975] 1 All ER 463 R v Chan Kang To [1997] HKLRD 412, [1997] 2 HKC 281 R v Gerald Cooper Chemicals Ltd [1978] Ch 262, [1978] 2 WLR 866, [1978] 2 All ER 49 R v Jones (Margaret) [2007] 1 AC 136, [2006] 2 WLR 772, [2006] 2 All ER 741 R v Lewis (1869) 11 Cox CC 404 R v Rimmington [2006] 1 AC 459, [2005] 3 WLR 982, [2006] 2 All ER 257 R v So Man King [1989] 1 HKLR 142 Shackleton, ex p Whittaker, Re (1874–1875) LR 10 Ch App 446 Smith v R [2000] 1 WLR 1644 So Wai Lun v HKSAR (2006) 9 HKCFAR 530, [2006] 3 HKLRD 394 So Yiu Fung v HKSAR (1999) 2 HKCFAR 539, [2000] 1 HKLRD 179, [2000] 1 HKC 348 Solicitor (24/07) v Law Society of Hong Kong (2008) 11 HKCFAR 117, [2008] 2 HKLRD 576, [2008] 2 HKC 1 Sorrell v Smith [1925] AC 700, [1925] All ER Rep 1 Union Bank of London v Munster (1888) 37 Ch D 51

(2010) 13 HKCFAR 847 HKSAR v Chan Wai Yip Bokhary PJ Other materials mentioned in the judgment Atiyah, Patrick, The Rise and Fall of Freedom of Contract (1979) pp.408– 413 Lever J and Pike J “Cartel Agreements, Criminal Conspiracy and the Statutory ‘Cartel Offence’: Part 1” (2005) 26(2) ECLR 90 Smith, ATH, “Auction Rings” [1981] Crim LR 86 Bokhary PJ 1.  I agree with the judgment of Sir Anthony Mason NPJ. Chan PJ 2.  I agree with the judgment of Sir Anthony Mason NPJ. Ribeiro PJ 3.  I agree with the judgment of Sir Anthony Mason NPJ. Litton NPJ Introduction 4.  This appeal raises important questions concerning the conduct of auctions. 5.  The essential facts fall within a narrow compass. They are as follows: (i) An auction of cooked food stalls at the new Tai Po Hui Market was held on 21 July 2004 by the Food and Environmental Hygiene Department (the Department) of the Hong Kong Government. (ii) This was a restricted auction. The only persons allowed to bid were the stall-holders at the old Tai Po Market: They were, in effect, being re-located to the new market. (iii) The Department had, some time before, notified the stall-holders of the reserve price for each stall, which the Department said had been fixed at 75% of the market price. (iv) Before the auction the Department sent to the stall-holders the Rules for the restricted auction. More will be said about these Rules later. (v) Prior to the auction, thirty six of the stall-holders had met together and had drawn lots with regard to the stall he or she would bid for at the auction. It was agreed that no-one else would bid for the same stall. The Department was unaware of such an agreement prior to the auction. (vi) The auction on 21 July 2004 was conducted by a Senior Health Inspector. Each stall was put up in turn. There was only one bid. The auctioneer announced the bid three times in the usual way. The stall was then knocked down to the bidder at the reserve price. This process was repeated a total

848 HONG KONG COURT OF FINAL APPEAL REPORTS (2010) 13 HKCFAR of 40 times. No bids were offered for 4 of the stalls. 36 of them were knocked down at the reserve price. Each time to a sole bidder. (vii) The bid price constituted the monthly rent for the stall, good for three years. (viii) Some time later, the 36 stall-holders were asked by the Department to sign the tenancy agreements for the stalls, which they did. They have been in possession to this day. 6.  Arising out of the facts as summarized above, nineteen of the stall-holders were charged with conspiracy to defraud, contrary to common law. 7.  The matter went before Deputy Magistrate Mr Eric Cheung Kwan-ming. The trial lasted over 50 days. They were all convicted and sentenced to terms of imprisonment ranging from 9 to 12 months. They all appealed (except for one who testified for the prosecution) and their appeals were referred by the High Court Judge to the Court of Appeal. By the time the Court of Appeal heard their appeal one of the appellants had died. The appeals were allowed. Hence it is the government which appears as the appellant in this Court, with seventeen respondents before us. The charge 8.  The particulars of the charge of conspiracy to defraud are as follows: … between a date unknown in June 2004 and the 21st day of July 2004, in Hong Kong, conspired together with AU Wing and other persons unknown, to defraud the Food and Environmental Hygiene Department (“the FEHD”), by dishonestly pre-allotting amongst themselves and their representatives the cooked food stalls at Tai Po Hui Market … prior to the auction held by the FEHD on the 21st day of July 2004 (“the Auction”) and agreeing amongst themselves and their representatives not to compete against one another in bidding the aforesaid cooked food stalls at the Auction, thereby deceiving the FEHD into believing that there was only one bid offered at the upset price for each of the aforesaid cooked food stalls and renting the aforesaid cooked food stalls at the upset prices to the aforesaid persons or their representatives. 9.  As can be seen the dishonesty as averred was this: The Department was (a) deceived into believing “that there was only one bid offered at the upset price for each of the aforesaid cooked food stalls” and (b) deceived into “renting the aforesaid cooked food stalls at the upset prices to the aforesaid persons or their representatives”.

(2010) 13 HKCFAR 849 HKSAR v Chan Wai Yip Litton NPJ 10.  As to the alleged deceit (a) above, that was, by the nature of the prosecution case, an impossibility: The very core of the Department’s complaint was that there was no competitive bidding. Each stall in turn was knocked down to the sole bidder at the reserve price. The Department could not have been deceived as alleged. 11.  As to the alleged deceit (b) above, the act of the Department in renting the stalls at the reserve price — that is to say, offering the tenancy agreements for signature to the respective bidders, with the rent set at the reserve price — simply flowed from the auction itself. Once the Department had accepted the bid, the “renting” was a simple administrative act. There could have been no intervening deceit which caused the Department to rent out the cooked food stall. 12.  If there was no deceit involved in the respondents’ “plot”, that is to say, the “pre-allotting” amongst the stall-holders as averred in the charge, and in the subsequent bids made at the auction, that was the end of the prosecution case. There was no dishonesty in the transaction which might have caused economic loss to the Department. The pre-auction agreement between the stall-holders could not be a criminal conspiracy. The Magistrate’s Approach 13.  Unfortunately, that was not the way the magistrate approached the case. Between §333 and §347 of his Statement of Findings he gave a long recital of his understanding of the law on conspiracy, without once adverting to the charge which he had to try. 14.  It is worth mentioning here this point: At the trial an Acting Chief Health Inspector was called as a prosecution witness (PW4). He produced a list of auctions of stalls by his Department at various locations which took place in the second half of 2004 (including the one held on 21 July, the subject of the charge). Over 320 stalls were involved: Virtually every one of them was knocked down at the reserve price. At the hearing before us Mr Zervos SC, counsel for the government, accepted that this must have been because, in each case, there was only one bidder. It is inconceivable that the Department was unaware of the fact that the bidders had agreed before hand that they would not bid against each other: And yet it went ahead and signed the tenancy agreements, giving possession of the stalls at the reserve price. The notion that the Department was deceived into renting the cooked food stalls to the various bidders at the reserve price is absurd. The First Question of Law 15.  The first point of law certified for our consideration is as follows:

850 HONG KONG COURT OF FINAL APPEAL REPORTS (2010) 13 HKCFAR Whether the formulation in Mo Yuk Ping v HKSAR (2007) 10 HKCFAR 386 is applicable to all forms of alleged conspiracy to defraud and ought also to be applied to a secret agreement not to compete at an auction as in any other cases or whether some aggravating feature as required in Norris v Government of the USA [2008] 1 AC 920 has to be present before such an agreement is indictable? 16.  I would simply answer it in this way: In Mo Yuk Ping v HKSAR (2007) 10 HKCFAR 386 a fraudulent scheme to manipulate the stock market was charged and proved: It was to artificially prop up the share price of a publicly-quoted company. In pursuance of the scheme, fictitious accounts were opened with many firms; the bank which had lent money on the security of those shares, and the investing public at large, were massively deceived, as the conspirators had intended. 17.  Where an agreement not to compete in an auction has no deceptive element in it, the fact that the agreement was made in secret does not by that fact alone render the agreement dishonest in the eyes of the law. Persons attending an auction owe no obligation to the vendor to compete with each other; nor are they required by law to so conduct themselves that the vendor achieves the highest possible price. As Atkin LJ said in Rawlings v General Trading Co [1921] 1 KB 635, 648: Why it should be illegal for two possible competitors to agree to a joint adventure in the purchase of an article offered for sale in any of the ways I have mentioned I cannot discern. One of the ways mentioned by him, earlier in the same passage of that judgment, was for one of the parties to absent himself from the auction or, being there, to refrain from bidding, thereby leaving the other party as the sole bidder. Atkin LJ went on to say that if there was any combination to make misrepresentations with intent to deceive the seller, the agreement would be illegal. Rawlings v General Trading Co was a civil case where the defendant had reneged on a prior agreement not to compete at an auction of surplus stores held by the government. The question was whether it was against public policy that parties should combine in this way prior to a public auction. The majority in the Court of Appeal (Bankes and Atkin LJJ) held that it was not. A later attempt to challenge this proposition in Harrop v Thompson [1975] 1 WLR 545 failed. At p.549B Templeman J said: If two potential bidders have entered into some form of agreement which results in one of them keeping his mouth shut at the auction, there is no method open to me in the light of the authorities to distinguish a good agreement from a bad agreement.

(2010) 13 HKCFAR 851 HKSAR v Chan Wai Yip Litton NPJ 18.  Misrepresentation and fraudulent conduct calculated to deceive would, of course, be an “aggravating feature”, thus rendering an otherwise innocent agreement illegal. 19.  In this regard, Mr Zervos SC counsel, for the appellant, relies on Rule 20 of the Rules of the auction which says: Any person who defrauds the Department by dishonest means (such as conspiring to refrain from competitive bidding causing everyone to win the bid for their stalls at the upset price) in the auction shall be prosecuted. This appears under the heading “Prevention of Bribery”, in the context of s.7 of the Prevention of Bribery Ordinance (Cap.201), which has no relevance to this case. But even assuming that this statement in Rule 20 was made in the context of the common law offence of conspiracy to defraud, it begs the very question: Is an agreement between the stall-holders “to refrain from competitive bidding causing everyone to win the bid for their stalls at the upset price”, without more, a crime? The answer must be No. 20.  Dishonesty is an essential element in the common law offence: see Mo Yuk Ping v HKSAR, 408F. None was present in this case. The Second Question of Law 21.  The second question certified for consideration by this Court is this: Whether the holding of an auction in a commercial context would by its nature necessarily imply that only competitive and genuine bids are acceptable, such as to prohibit any price fixing conduct in respect of it, and to render such conduct dishonest and prima facie indictable? 22.  The magistrate convicted the respondents on the basis of their statements to the police. In essence each of them said words to this effect: (i) They participated in the drawing of lots for the stalls. (ii) The purpose was to avoid competing with each other to drive up the price. (iii) The agreement would cause the Department to receive less rent for the stalls. (iv) The Department might have suffered a loss as a result. 23.  In some cases they agreed with the interviewer that the meaning of an auction was to have the item under the hammer to go to the

852 HONG KONG COURT OF FINAL APPEAL REPORTS (2010) 13 HKCFAR highest bidder. This lies, in effect, at the heart of the case as presented to this Court by the appellant. Mr Zervos SC argues thus: The deception on the Department was that this restrictive auction which the respondents attended was a genuine competitive auction without the bidders colluding among themselves. (Emphasis added.) Apart from the fact that the Department could not, by any stretch of the imagination, have been deceived (as to which see §§10 and 11 above), it begs the question: How was the expectation that this would be a “competitive auction” aroused? What made the Department believe that the stall-holders would compete with each other, so that the Department would get a higher price? By the sole fact that this was an “auction”? Or a “restrictive auction”? Or that the respondents had attended the auction? 24.  As Atkin LJ said in Rawlings v General Trading Co, 648: I see no principle upon which sales by auction differ from an offer of sale by tender or indeed by private treaty, except that at an auction without reserve the goods are offered to the purchaser who there and then offers the highest price. An auction, just as a sale by private treaty, involves mutual dealings. The purchaser’s interest is to obtain the goods at the lowest price: Does the vendor owe a duty to the purchaser that he gets the goods at the lowest price? If not, why should the purchaser owe a duty to the vendor that he sells at the highest price? Plainly, no such duty exists. 25.  A combination, as such, is not illegal. It is only where persons agree to do an unlawful act, or to do a lawful act by unlawful means, that it becomes a criminal conspiracy. As mentioned earlier, for potential purchasers to agree together, before an auction, that they would not compete with each other, is not per se unlawful. If the agreement involves no deception of any kind then they have not set out to do something lawful by unlawful means. This analysis of the law is, of course, made in the context of the charge in this case: The common law offence of conspiracy to defraud. It pays no regard to s.7 of the Prevention of Bribery Ordinance (Cap.201)1. It does not address the question whether X has offered an “advantage” (as 1 Section 7 (1) Any person who, without lawful authority or reasonable excuse, offers any advantage to any other person as an inducement to or reward for or otherwise an account of that other person’s refraining or having refrained from bidding at any auction conducted by or on behalf of any public body, shall be guilty of an offence. (2) Any person who, without lawful authority or reasonable excuse, solicits or accepts any advantage as an inducement to or reward for or otherwise on account of his refraining or having refrained from bidding at any auction conducted by or on behalf of any public body, shall be guilty of an offence.

(2010) 13 HKCFAR 853 HKSAR v Chan Wai Yip Litton NPJ defined in that Ordinance) to Y when he undertakes to Y not to bid against him when the item “pre-allotted” to Y comes under the hammer. Of course, the “advantage” is mutual, since Y has made an identical undertaking to X. The “advantages”, in a sense, cancel out each other. 26.  Note also this: In a case like the present, where Rule 8 of the auction rules allows the auctioneer to refuse to accept any bid without explanation, the stall-holders could do no more than to hope that, by their arrangement, each would get the allotted stall at the reserve price. Their agreement went no further than to mutually agree not to bid against each other. Full stop. There was no way they could have been sure that the pre-allotted stalls would be knocked down to them at the reserve price. The surprising thing in this case is that the auctioneer continued the auction when it became blindingly obvious very early on in the proceedings that the stall-holders had agreed not to bid against each other, as each stall was knocked down to a sole bidder. And if, as the Department now alleges, the auction was vitiated by fraud, it could have avoided the contract and refused to sign the tenancy agreement. 27.  Mr Zervos SC’s proposition (at §23 above) therefore boils down to this: By their bare conduct, that is to say, by attending the auction, nothing else, the respondents impliedly represented that they would make it “competitive”; that they would bid against each other; that they had formed no prior agreement to refrain from bidding against each other. 28.  Note this: There is no suggestion in Mr Zervos SC’s proposition that the pre-allotment arrangement was aimed at harming the economic interests of the Department. The stall-holders were looking to their own economic interests: If each stall was knocked down to them at the reserve price, so much the better for them (and, it might be added, for the consumers who frequented their stalls). 29.  Plainly, no such implication as proposed by the appellant can arise: neither by law, nor from the facts of the case. Serious criminal offences like conspiracy to defraud cannot crystallize from such shadowy propositions. The answer to the second question must necessarily be No. The Third Question of Law 30.  The third question is this: Whether the incorporation of an express condition in the auction rules to the effect that only competitive and genuine bids are acceptable would prohibit any price fixing conduct in respect of it, and render such conduct dishonest and prima facie indictable? 31.  For the appellant, this question fails in limine upon the facts of this case. Clause 20 of the Rules (referred to in §19 above) in no way

854 HONG KONG COURT OF FINAL APPEAL REPORTS (2010) 13 HKCFAR amounted to a representation by the stall-holders of any kind. It was simply a warning by the Department. As Tang V-P said (§78 of his judgment) the Department could have required a written warranty from each potential bidder. The warranty could have been to this effect: that, in making a bid, the bidder warranted that he/she had not entered into any prior arrangement to refrain from competitive bidding; each bid would then be accepted on that basis. In no way can Rule 20 be construed to operate in this way. Conclusion 32.  These are my reasons for agreeing that this appeal should be dismissed. Sir Anthony Mason NPJ Introduction 33.  19 defendants were charged with a single count of common law conspiracy to defraud, punishable under s.159C(6) of the Crimes Ordinance (Cap.200). The particulars of the offence charged were as follows: … between a date unknown in June 2004 and the 21st day of July 2004, in Hong Kong, conspired together with AU Wing and other persons unknown, to defraud the Food and Environmental Hygiene Department (the FEHD), by dishonestly pre-allotting amongst themselves and their representatives the cooked food stalls at Tai Po Hui Market at No 8 Heung Sze Wui Street, Tai Po prior to the auction held by the FEHD on the 21st day of July 2004 (the Auction) and agreeing amongst themselves and their representatives not to compete against one another in bidding the aforesaid cooked food stalls at the Auction, thereby deceiving the FEHD into believing that there was only one bid offered at the upset price for each of the aforesaid cooked food stalls and renting the aforesaid cooked food stalls at the upset prices to the aforesaid persons or their representatives. As will appear, the way in which the conspiracy is formulated is of critical importance in this appeal. 34.  The defendants other than the 1st defendant, who pleaded guilty, pleaded not guilty but were convicted by the Deputy Magistrate (as he then was) and sentenced to imprisonment ranging from 9  to 12 months. Their appeals against conviction and sentence were transferred to the Court of Appeal pursuant to s.118(1)(d) of the Magistrates Ordinance (Cap.227). The appeal by the 19th defendant, who died in the meantime, was abated on 2 March 2010. 35.  On 15 March 2010 the Court of Appeal allowed the appeal by the other defendants who pleaded not guilty (the respondents

(2010) 13 HKCFAR 855 HKSAR v Chan Wai Yip Sir Anthony Mason NPJ in this Court) and quashed the convictions. On 1 April 2010 the Court published its reasons for allowing the appeal. The principal judgment was delivered by Tang V-P, with Yeung JA and D Pang J agreeing. On 9 July 2010, the Appeal Committee extended the time for applying for leave to appeal and granted the prosecution leave to appeal out of time under s.32(2) of the Hong Kong Court of Final Appeal Ordinance (Cap.484), on the ground that points of law of great and general importance were involved. The prosecutor’s appeal to this Court is brought pursuant to that grant of leave. 36.  The three points of law on which the Appeal Committee granted leave to appeal are: (a) Whether the formulation in Mo Yuk Ping v HKSAR is applicable to all forms of alleged conspiracy to defraud and ought also to be applied to a secret agreement not to compete at an auction as in any other cases or whether some aggravating feature as required in Norris v Government of the USA [2008] 1 AC 920 has to be present before such an agreement is indictable. (b) Whether the holding of an auction in a commercial context would by its nature necessarily imply that only competitive and genuine bids are acceptable, such as to prohibit any price fixing conduct in respect of it, and to render such conduct dishonest and prima facie indictable. (c) Whether the incorporation of an express condition in the auction rules to the effect that only competitive and genuine bids are acceptable would prohibit any price fixing conduct in respect of it, and render such conduct dishonest and prima facie indictable. The facts 37.  The facts of the case are uncontested. I take them from the judgment of Tang V-P where they are summarised succinctly. The respondents were the tenants or assistants to the tenants of cooked food stalls at the former Tai Po Temporary Market (the Old Market). In 2004, the respondents and other tenants were required by the Food and Environmental Hygiene Department (FEHD) to move from the Old Market to the newly built Tai Po Hui Market (the New Market). They were given priority to bid for stalls at the New Market in a restricted auction (圍內競投) which was held exclusively for them. The bid price would become the rent to be paid. The upset prices for these stalls were fixed at 75% of the market rent as assessed by the Rating and Valuation Department. These upset reserved prices were made known by letters sent by FEHD to the potential bidders including the respondents in early June 2004. 38.  The prosecution’s case is that before attending the restricted auction, the respondents had attended a pre-allotment exercise held

856 HONG KONG COURT OF FINAL APPEAL REPORTS (2010) 13 HKCFAR among themselves and other tenants of the Old Market. The exercise was conducted by way of the drawing of lots. The numbers drawn in the first round would determine the sequence of the draw in the second round. A number drawn in the second round would be the number of the stall in the New Market allotted to the drawer of that number. The participants also agreed amongst themselves that each would only bid for the stall which had been allotted to him/her in this manner. 39.  The restricted auction was held on 21 July 2004 and was attended by 36 eligible bidders, including the respondents. 40 cooked food stalls were put up for auction. There was no competitive bidding during the auction and the stalls were knocked down to all the 36 bidders at the upset prices. Lack of competitive bidding was by no means confined to the auctions in question. From materials in evidence it seems to have been a fairly common feature of auctions conducted by the FEHD at this time, involving a single bid with lots sold at the upset price. 40.  Included in the documents sent to each of the stallholders who were potential bidders were the rules of the auction. Rule 4 provided that the basic principle of an auction was that the stalls would be knocked down to the highest bidder. Rule 8 provided that the participants of the auction “shall not in any way influence another person in bidding for a stall …”. Rule 20, which appears under the heading “Prevention of Bribery”, stated the effect of s.7 of the Prevention of Bribery Ordinance (Cap.201) (the PBO), without identifying the section or the Ordinance. The Rule then provided: Any person who defrauds the Department by dishonest means (such as conspiring to refrain from competitive bidding causing everyone to win the bid for their stalls at the upset prices) in the auction shall be prosecuted. This warning was directed to conspiracy to defraud rather than a breach of s.7. 41.  The Senior Health Inspector, Kwan Chi Hung (PW4), who conducted the auction, agreed in cross-examination, however, that he had not mentioned the auction rules before conducting the restricted auction. Nonetheless the stallholders who were potential bidders were notified of the rules and they formed part of the terms and conditions of the auction. I shall refer to r.20 later in these reasons. It is nevertheless clear that, at no stage of the proceedings, did the prosecutor rely on s.7 of the PBO. The Court of Appeal 42.  In the Court of Appeal, the prosecution (the appellant in this Court) relied on the pre-allotment and the agreement not to compete

(2010) 13 HKCFAR 857 HKSAR v Chan Wai Yip Sir Anthony Mason NPJ as the constituent elements of the common law offence of conspiracy to defraud. The prosecution, as at trial, did not rely on any additional element such as fraud, misrepresentation, violence, intimidation or inducement of breach of contract. Instead, the foundation of the prosecution case was Viscount Dilhorne’s statement in Scott v Metropolitan Police Commissioner [1975] AC 819, 840 that the law is: that an agreement by two or more by dishonesty to deprive a person of something which is his or to which he is or would be or might be entitled and an agreement by two or more by dishonesty to injure some proprietary right of his, suffices to constitute the offence of conspiracy to defraud. In addition to this proposition, Mr Terence Wai, who appeared for the prosecution in the courts below, submitted that FEHD suffered economic loss as a result of the respondents’ conduct. 43.  The respondents submitted that an agreement by which the parties agreed not to bid against each other at an auction has always been held to be valid and enforceable under English law and has never been held to be criminal. The Court of Appeal upheld this submission and rejected the argument of the prosecution. In doing so, the Court of Appeal relied on a long and consistent line of English authority, beginning with the judgment of Knight Bruce V-C in Galton v Emuss [1844] 1 Coll 243, 246 and culminating in the decisions of the House of Lords in Norris v Government of the United States of America [2008] 1 AC 920, 936B–E and R v Goldshield Group Plc [2009] 1 WLR 458. The Court of Appeal saw no inconsistency between Norris and the decision of this Court in Mo Yuk Ping v HKSAR. The arguments in this Court 44.  The appellant submits that Mo Yuk Ping v HKSAR authoritatively states the constituent elements of the offence of conspiracy to defraud in Hong Kong and that the offence is not limited to cases involving “the aggravating features” identified in Norris v Government of the United States of America. The appellant then submits that the essence of the restrictive auction was that it was a genuine competitive auction which would not involve any collusion by the bidders themselves. Yet there was collusion which resulted in deception and therefore dishonesty, falling within the Mo Yuk Ping formulation, so that it was not a case of mere price fixing, as the Court of Appeal found. 45.  The case for the respondents as argued in the Court of Appeal is that an agreement not to bid at an auction, without any of “the aggravating features” identified in Norris v Government of the United States of America, is neither criminal nor dishonest and therefore falls outside the scope of the offence of conspiracy as formulated in Mo

858 HONG KONG COURT OF FINAL APPEAL REPORTS (2010) 13 HKCFAR Yuk Ping v HKSAR. In any event, the respondents submit that an agreement not to bid at an auction is not, and never has been held to be dishonest or criminal at common law. The charge 46.  Before considering the arguments presented in this appeal, it is necessary to turn to the way in which the charge of conspiracy against the respondents was formulated and the consequences this may have for the disposition of the appeal. In the courts below no attention was given to the terms of the charge. In this Court, however, when Mr Kevin Zervos SC for the appellant was asked in argument how he formulated the elements of the alleged conspiracy, attention was directed to the terms of the charge. It alleged that the defendants conspired to defraud the FEHD by dishonestly pre-allotting among themselves the relevant food stalls so as not to bid against each other, thus (as it is particularised in the charge) deceiving the FEHD into believing that there was only one bid offered at the upset price for each of the aforesaid cooked food stalls and renting the aforesaid cooked food stalls at the upset prices to the aforesaid persons or their representatives. 47.  The case averred by the prosecution was therefore one of deception, namely that the pre-allotment and the agreement not to compete deceived the FEHD into believing that there was only one bid for each stall at the auction. There are three problems with the case as so pleaded. First, the FEHD was not aware of the pre-allotment and the agreement not to compete until some time after the auction. Secondly, there is no evidence that the pre-allotment on the agreement not to compete induced or deceived the FEHD into believing anything. Thirdly, no doubt the FEHD did believe that only one bid was offered at the upset price for each stall but that belief was founded on the FEHD’s knowledge of what in fact happened at the auction. The deception alleged simply cannot be substantiated. 48.  Mr Zervos SC frankly admitted that the charge was defective and put his case on two different bases. The first was that the pre-allotment and, in particular, the agreement not to compete amounted to a collusive arrangement intended to deprive the FEHD by dishonest means of a higher price, thereby causing economic loss. The second was that, by participating in the auction on the basis on which they did, the defendants made a false representation to the FEHD causing it loss. 49.  The problem with proceeding with the appeal is that we could not allow an appeal and convict the respondents on a charge of conspiracy which cannot be made out. Nor can we convict them of

(2010) 13 HKCFAR 859 HKSAR v Chan Wai Yip Sir Anthony Mason NPJ an offence of conspiracy to defraud which has never been charged. It follows that the appeal could not succeed. The Court made an order dismissing the appeal with costs at the end of the oral argument, stating that reasons would be handed down later. This judgment sets out my reasons for dismissing the appeal. 50.  As the principal issue argued in the appeal is of some importance, I shall deal with it on the two bases argued by the appellant. The common law offence of conspiracy to defraud 51.  In Mo Yuk Ping v HKSAR, this Court held that the essence of the offence of conspiracy to defraud was becoming a party to an agreement with another or others to use dishonest means (i) with the purpose of causing economic loss to, or putting at risk the economic interests of another; or (ii) with the realisation that the use of those means might cause such loss or put such interests at risk. In stating the elements of conspiracy to defraud in this way, this Court adopted earlier formulations of the offence in both the House of Lords (Welham v DPP [1961] AC 103; R v Scott [1975] AC 819) and the Privy Council on appeal from Hong Kong (Wai Yu Tsang v R [1992] 1 AC 269). The Court pointed out (at p.405D–E) that most cases of agreement to use dishonest means were cases of deceit. The Court rejected the argument that the offence, as formulated in Mo Yuk Ping v HKSAR, offended the principle of legal certainty. 52.  In Norris v Government of the United States of America, as well as R v Goldshield Group Plc, the House of Lords did not refer at all to the formulations in its two earlier decisions, though in R v Goldshield Group Plc there was a reference to Wai Yu Tsang v R. No doubt this was because their Lordships were directing their attention to the precise issue which arose for decision in the proceedings before them. In Norris v Government of the United States of America, that issue was whether the defendant’s alleged conduct in conspiring with producers of carbon products to operate a price fixing agreement or cartel in several countries, which was the subject of the conspiracy offence with which the defendant was charged in the United States, constituted common law conspiracy to defraud. In R v Goldshield Group Plc, the issue was whether arrangements to fix and maintain prices for drugs supplied and for manipulating the supply of drugs constituted such a conspiracy. 53.  It was in this context that the House of Lords held, after reviewing the relevant authorities, that: [t]he common law recognised that an agreement in restraint of trade might be unreasonable in the public interest, and in such cases the agreement would be held to be void and unenforceable. But unless there were aggravating features such as fraud, misrepresentation,

860 HONG KONG COURT OF FINAL APPEAL REPORTS (2010) 13 HKCFAR violence, intimidation or inducement of a breach of contract, such agreements were not actionable or indictable (Norris at 933F–G). 54.  Neither the appellant nor the respondents contend that Norris v Government of the United States of America is inconsistent with Mo Yuk Ping v HKSAR. Be this as it may, neither what was decided nor what was said in Norris v Government of the United States of America or R v Goldshield Group Plc constitutes any reason for this Court to depart from the general formulation of the offence of conspiracy to defraud as expressed in Mo Yuk Ping v HKSAR. On the issue of legal certainty, the Court’s approach in Mo Yuk Ping v HKSAR was consistent with the approach which it had adopted earlier in Shum Kwok Sher v HKSAR (2002) 5 HKCFAR 381. On the other hand, the discussion in Norris about the common law treatment of price fixing agreements, in particular the conclusion that, absent the so-called “aggravating features”, they did not involve dishonesty (see p.936C–E), is a matter that calls for close attention. The issue for decision in this appeal 55.  The issue argued in this Court therefore is whether a secret agreement between potential bidders not to compete at an auction, or such an agreement followed by participation by such bidders at the auction, falls within the formulation of the common law offence of conspiracy to defraud as formulated in Mo Yuk Ping v HKSAR. The focus of attention in that formulation was on the expression “by dishonest means”, where the word “dishonest” is to be understood in its ordinary sense (see R v Ghosh [1982] 1 QB 1053). The English authorities on agreements restricting bidding at auctions 56.  There is no doubt, as the Court of Appeal held, that there is strong English authority to support the proposition that an agreement by potential buyers not to bid at an auction, what is called in England a “knock out” agreement, in order to keep the price down, is neither unenforceable as being contrary to public policy nor criminal. Whether they go so far as to hold that such an agreement, if secret, is dishonest for the purposes of the law of conspiracy, is a question I leave for later consideration. 57.  Galton v Emuss [1844] 1 Coll 243, Re Carew’s Estate [1858] 26 Beav 187 and Heffer v Martyn [1867] 36 LJ Ch 373 were cases in which two potential buyers agreed that one would not bid against the other at an auction for valuable consideration. The agreement in each case was held to be valid and enforceable, resulting in Galton v Emuss and Heffer v Martyn in an order for specific performance. In Re Carew’s Estate the agreement was that the parties would divide

(2010) 13 HKCFAR 861 HKSAR v Chan Wai Yip Sir Anthony Mason NPJ the property between them if it was bought by the bidding party under the sale pursuant to a court order. On a summons to set aside the sale on the ground that the agreement was unlawful, Sir John Romilly MR said (at p.190) that “a mere agreement” between two persons not to bid against each other was not “sufficient to invalidate a sale to one of them”. 58.  In Jones v North (1875) 19 Eq 426, after a corporation had invited tenders for the supply of stone, A, B, C and D who were quarry owners agreed that A should buy stone at a fixed price from the other three and submit the lowest tender. B should not tender, that C and D should tender above A’s price and that B, C and D should not supply stone to the corporation during 1875. A purchased the stone as agreed but B sent in a tender, in breach of the agreement, and it was accepted. Bacon V-C held that the agreement was legal and valid. He also said (at p.429) that the case was “on one side at least, a very honest one”, a statement which has been doubted (Norris v Government of the United States of America [2007] 1 WLR 1730, para.50, (Auld LJ)), indeed criticized (Lever and Pike, “Cartel Agreements, Criminal Conspiracy and the Statutory ‘Cartel Offence’: Part 1” (2005) ECLR, 90–97). Bacon V-C rejected a submission that the plaintiff could not obtain equitable relief because the arrangement was a device to compel the authority, under the fiction of public competition, to accept tenders not representing the market price of the stone. He held (at p.430) that the agreement was “perfectly lawful”. 59.  In Norris v Government of the United States of America, their Lordships stated that Jones v North has never been overruled and treated it as representing the law to-day (see p.936C–E). 60.  In Rawlings v General Trading Co [1920] 3 KB 30, the question was whether on the sale of Government stores by public auction, where no reserve was fixed, two or more buyers could agree that one of them only would bid in order to keep down the price, and that they would then share the profits between them. At first instance Shearman J concluded (at p.34) that the agreement was one “which it is contrary to public policy to enforce”. 61.  On appeal (1921) 1 KB 635, the Court of Appeal by majority (Bankes and Atkin LJJ with Scrutton LJ dissenting) allowed the appeal. Scrutton LJ considered (at p.647) that “the agreement was contrary to public policy, as a restraint of trade contrary to the interests of the public”, though it was neither criminal nor actionable. On the other hand, Bankes and Atkin LJJ, on the basis of the long line of existing authorities, concluded (at pp.641 and 652 respectively) that the agreement was legal and enforceable. Atkin LJ said (at p.652): I can see no reason for saying that this contract is ex facie illegal. It would probably be sufficient to say that for nearly a century Courts

862 HONG KONG COURT OF FINAL APPEAL REPORTS (2010) 13 HKCFAR of equity have held similar agreements legal and enforceable by suit for specific performance. But apart from decided cases, as between the parties it appears to be plainly reasonable, and if the defendant wished to establish that the public interests suffered he should have so pleaded so as to give the plaintiff notice. 62.  Rawlings v General Trading Co was subsequently followed by McCardie J in Cohen v Roche [1927] 1 KB 169, 173. And the legality of a “knock out” agreement was assumed in Pallant v Morgan [1953] Ch 43 where a party to such an agreement who became the successful bidder refused to divide the property sold with the other party to the agreement as it provided. The Court declared that the successful party held the property sold for the other party to the agreement. 63.  Rawlings v General Trading Co was again followed by Templeman J (as he then was) in Harrop v Thompson [1975] 1 WLR

  1. There specific performance was ordered of an agreement for the

sale of two farms purchased at a public auction, despite the existence of an antecedent agreement between the purchaser and another potential bidder that the latter would not bid with the result that the purchaser obtained the property more cheaply. 64.  In that case, counsel for the first defendant invited the court to follow the path favoured by Shearman J and Scrutton LJ in Rawlings v General Trading Co and to conclude that an agreement not to bid, if not proved to be reasonable, is unenforceable and relieves the vendor from his contract. A “knock out” agreement, he submitted, is an interference with the liberty of the potential bidder to bid at the auction and ought not to be enforceable if the sole or primary object of the knock out agreement is to buy the property cheaply. Templeman J responded to this argument by saying (at pp.548H–549A): This submission tends to bring most contracts within the grasp of restraint of trade and therefore unenforceable unless proved to be reasonable, because most contracts interfere with liberty of action one way or another. I am not convinced that the agreement alleged in the present case was in restraint of trade. If it was in restraint of trade, I am not convinced that it therefore invalidated or affected the contract between the vendors and the purchaser. 65.  Templeman J went on to say (at p.549D): A vendor can protect himself by conditions under which he imposes a reserve and keeps the right to bid and to withdraw. A timid vendor need not sell by auction. The significance of this observation is a matter to which I shall return.

(2010) 13 HKCFAR 863 HKSAR v Chan Wai Yip Sir Anthony Mason NPJ 66.  In Norris v Government of the United States of America, Rawlings v General Trading Co, as well as Jones v North, was accepted as correctly stating the law. The other authorities which I have discussed were not referred to in Norris v Government of the United States of America, but if Rawlings v General Trading Co and Jones v North correctly state the law in England so do they. 67.  On the other hand, the common law has taken a different approach to agreements the purpose of which is to raise the market value of public funds and shares. In R v De Berenger (1814) 3 M & S 67 the defendants were charged with conspiring by false rumours to raise the price of public Government funds and were convicted. On a motion to arrest judgment, which was dismissed, Lord Ellenborough CJ said (at pp.72–73) that the purpose itself is mischievous, it strikes at the price of a vendible commodity in the market, and if it gives it a fictitious price, by means of false rumours, it is a fraud levelled against all the public … Bayley J and Dampier J were of a similar opinion, as was Le Blanc J who said (at p.74): the raising or lowering the price of public funds is not per se a crime … But if a number of persons conspire by false rumours to raise the funds on a particular day, that is an offence … 68.  In Scott v Brown, Doering, McNab & Co [1892] 2 QB 724 the Court of Appeal held that an agreement between two or more persons to purchase shares in a company in order to induce persons who might thereafter purchase shares in that company to believe, contrary to the fact, that there was a bona fide market for the shares, and that the shares were at a real premium, is an illegal transaction which may be made the subject of an indictment for conspiracy and no action can be maintained on the agreement or the purchase of the shares. The Court of Appeal followed R v De Berenger and held that the acts of the plaintiff in ordering shares to be bought for him at a premium was to deceive the public by leading the public to suppose that there were buyers of the shares at a premium on the Stock Exchange. The purchase of the shares was to be equated to a false representation. Assessment of the English authorities on agreements restricting bidding 69.  For present purposes, the English authorities establish that these agreements were lawful at common law. Although Jones v North is the only case which expressly holds that such agreements are “honest”.

864 HONG KONG COURT OF FINAL APPEAL REPORTS (2010) 13 HKCFAR The other cases by holding that they are lawful necessarily negate the possibility that they could be “dishonest” in the sense that they could be the subject of a conviction for conspiracy to defraud. A contract which is valid and enforceable cannot itself be “dishonest” for the purposes of criminal conspiracy to defraud. 70.  To an observer familiar with the modern law relating to restrictive trade practices and uninstructed in the way in which the law on this point developed, the proposition that “knock out” agreements are “honest” might seem somewhat surprising. The explanation lies no doubt in the nature of the capitalist economic philosophy which prevailed in England in the period 1800–1870, which strongly favoured freedom of trade and freedom of contract (see Atiyah, The Rise and Fall of Freedom of Contract (1979) pp.408– 412). One consequence of this approach was that the courts were not concerned with the effect of a contract on third parties but with the legal effect and enforcement of the contract as between the parties to it (see Atiyah, pp.412–413). This serves to explain why the impact of a “knock-out” agreement on the vendor at an auction was not considered in the cases which have been discussed. They were, of course, with the exception of Cohen v Roche, cases in which the vendor at an auction was not a party. 71.  The different treatment of an agreement to raise prices at an auction may be explained at two levels. First, they were cases which involved a misrepresentation by words or conduct, whereas a “knock out” agreement of itself did not, though it might lead to the making of such a misrepresentation. Secondly, there was a recognition that a false increase in market prices has an adverse impact on the public; such an impact may or may not occur in the case of a false lowering of auction prices. Although a “knock out” agreement may be in restraint of trade because it is restrictive of freedom of competition, it may not necessarily be contrary to the public interest, a matter that was acknowledged in Rawlings v General Trading Co (see para.61 above). 72.  Until Rawlings v General Trading Co, there was no suggestion that a “knock out” agreement might be in restraint of trade. In the period which the cases before Rawlings v General Trading Co were decided, the courts were not disposed to invalidate or treat as unenforceable agreements which were restrictive of competition on the ground that they were in restraint of trade. It seems to have been thought that restrictive agreements would not survive the pressure of freedom of competition (see, for example, Wickens v Evans (1829) 3 Y & J 318, 330; 148 ER 1201, 1206 which was cited with approval by Fry LJ in Mogul Steamship Co Ltd v McGregor, Gow & Co (1889) 23 QBD 598, 628, in a judgment upheld in the House of Lords [1892] AC 25). Jones v North itself was a striking illustration of how far the courts were prepared to go in enforcing contracts which, to modern eyes, might seem to be in restraint of trade. There, the court

(2010) 13 HKCFAR 865 HKSAR v Chan Wai Yip Sir Anthony Mason NPJ having rejected the argument that the agreement was in restraint of trade and an unlawful conspiracy, granted an injunction which prevented the defendant from carrying out his contract to supply the Birmingham Corporation to the detriment of its interests, though it was not a party to the proceedings. 73.  And even when, at the end of the 19th century, restraint of trade issues were litigated before the courts, arising out of combination, cartel and restrictive trade agreements, the courts were unwilling to hold that they were illegal. They might be void and unenforceable as between the parties but they were not illegal. That was the real point of the decision of both the Court of Appeal and the House of Lords in Mogul Steamship Co Ltd v McGregor, Gow & Co. Indeed, the underlying thrust of the reasoning both in the Court of Appeal and the House of Lords in that case was that, so long as traders individually or collectively were pursuing their own business interests without infringing the rights of others or intending to do them harm, that pursuit was legitimate, even if, by deliberately lowering prices, it drove others out of business. In this respect, Mogul Steamship Co Ltd v McGregor, Gow & Co is generally consistent with, and supports, the long line of decisions in the “knock out” cases and Jones v North. Should this Court follow the English authorities? 74.  The question which arises therefore is whether the Court should, in stating the law of conspiracy to defraud for Hong Kong, declare that the long line of decisions on “knock out” agreements, including Jones v North, no longer represents the law of Hong Kong. The argument for taking this course is that such agreements are dishonest and anti-competitive and strike at the very essence of a competitive auction. Even assuming that there is strong reason to take this course in an appropriate case, this is not such a case because the appeal must be dismissed for the reasons already given. 75.  And, in any event, to discard the long line of English authority to bring “knock out” agreements within the reach of the law of criminal conspiracy would be a step too far. Not only have the relevant decisions stood for a very long time — they go back more than 160 years — they almost certainly have been taken to represent the law of conspiracy in Hong Kong. For all we know, people in Hong Kong have relied on them. If there is to be a change, then in my view it is a matter entirely for the legislature. Other matters 76.  It is, of course, true that the FEHD can protect itself from “knock out” agreements by fixing a reserve (and not disclosing it) and reserving the right to bid and withdraw, as Templeman J pointed

866 HONG KONG COURT OF FINAL APPEAL REPORTS (2010) 13 HKCFAR in Harrop v Thompson, p.549D but this expedient leaves unresolved the question whether there should be a criminal sanction against the making of collusive “knock out” agreements. 77.  Finally a word about s.7 of the PBO. It seems that it has not been enforced in Hong Kong due to doubts about its efficacy. The section, though expressed in different terms, is broadly similar to s.1(1) of the Auctions (Bidding Agreements) Act 1927 (UK). Professor ATH Smith discusses the section in “Auction Rings” [1981] Crim LR 86 and identifies the problems associated with it. Conclusion 78.  These are my reasons for dismissing the appeal. Bokhary PJ 79.  At the conclusion of the hearing, the Court announced that the appeal was dismissed for reasons to be handed down in due course. The reasons given by Sir Anthony Mason NPJ constitute the reasons of the Court. Costs will be dealt with on written submissions as to which the parties should seek procedural directions from the Registrar.

Chapter 200 Crimes Ordinance 16/11/2017 36. [cf. 1911 c. 6 s. 5 U.K.] False statutory declarations and other false statements without oath Any person who knowingly and wilfully makes (otherwise than on oath) a statement false in a material particular, such statement being made— (a) in a statutory declaration; or (b) in an abstract, account, balance sheet, book, certificate, declaration, entry, estimate, inventory, notice, report, return or other document which he is authorized or required to make, attest or verify, by any enactment for the time being in force; or (c) in any oral declaration or oral answer which he is required to make by, under or in pursuance of any enactment for the time being in force, shall be guilty of an offence and shall be liable on conviction upon indictment to imprisonment for 2 years and to a fine. (21 of 1922 s. 7 incorporated. Amended 5 of 1924 Schedule) 1/8/26, 10:02 AM Hong Kong e-Legislation - Print Selected Documents https://www.elegislation.gov.hk/printhtml 1/1

FD06230 | 2025_港澳台_香港大埔宏福苑-特别重大火灾事故调查报告(竞争事务委员会改进措施建议).pdf

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Re. Independent Committee in relation to the fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po (“IC”)

Recommendations of the Competition Commission (“CC”) in relation to Terms of Reference (2) (“ToR (2)”)

Introduction

These are the submissions of the CC to the IC pursuant to: (1) the IC’s directions at the evidential hearing on 30 April 2026 concerning the legality and practicality of fee-scales for the consideration of residents;1 and

(2) its directions made on 8 May 2026 concerning any recommendations on improvement measures to ToR (1) and ToR (2).

These submissions are broken down into the following sections: (1) Part 1 will address the issue of fee-scales and its relevant legality and practicality;

(2) Part 2 will address any additional developments in terms of the CC’s overall recommendations to ToR(2); and

(3) Part 3 will set out the CC’s concluding observations.

In summary, the CC’s position is as follows: Fee-scales

(1) It is not unlawful for a statutory body such as the Urban Renewal Authority (“URA”) to compile a set of fee-scales whether generally or in order to provide some form of reference for residents in their determination of which consultant / contractor to select in carrying out large-scale building maintenance works.

(2) Save in exceptional circumstances, it is unlawful for members of an association of undertakings (like the Hong Kong Institute of Surveyors (“HKIS”)) to discuss and agree on a set of fee-scales. Such an arrangement (i.e. where competing undertakings discuss

1 [Day 21, 101:14-23]

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and agree on a set of prices they would likely charge for future works) is expressly prohibited by the First Conduct Rule (“FCR”) under the s.6 of the Competition Ordinance (Cap. 619) (“CO”) [Tab-1].

(3) In the event that the URA (or another statutory body) wishes to compile fee-scales of consultants for residents / property management companies to make reference to, the CC’s recommendations are as follows:

(a) if the fee-scales are compiled using the prices of previous bids as benchmark, care must be taken to ensure that the previous prices used for benchmarking purposes were, in the opinion of the statutory body, reasonable and competitive;

(b) although it may be suspicious for a consultant to put in an overly “low” bid for consultancy services, it cannot be discounted that there may be legitimate business reasons why a particular consultant may be bidding aggressively for a consultancy contract. This may, for example, be where:

(a) the consultant is willing to forego some of its profits to gain relevant staffing and project experiences especially if it is a new entrant to the consultancy market and needs to accrue such experience in order to meet the URA’s prequalification criteria; and/or

(b) the consultant has special technical know-how and expertise that enables it to carry out the relevant works in a manner that is more efficient / cost effective compared to its competitors. It is therefore able to lower its bidding prices without sacrificing its profits;

thus, rather than simply disqualifying a relevant consultancy bid for being priced at a very low level, it may be prudent for the residents / property management companies to make further inquiries to ascertain whether any legitimate reason is present lest they end up disqualifying a genuine competitive tender; and

(c) finally, while a set of fee-scales may be helpful in informing the residents / property management companies which bids

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are suspiciously cheap, it does not necessarily follow that those bids which are within the fee-scale / reference price range must be free from manipulation. The use of fee-scales must therefore not be the only form of due diligence which needs to be carried out.

Recommendation on Improvement Measures to ToR(2)

(4) In addition to the previous recommendations which the CC has proposed:

(a) the CC will shortly be publishing:

(i) a set of revised model Non-Collusion Clause (“NCC”) and Non-Collusive Tendering Certificate (“NCTC”) to strengthen its efficacy in deterring anticompetitive behaviour in the tendering for building maintenance works; and

(ii) a pro-forma statutory declaration for prospective procurers to incorporate into their tenders - requiring bidders in building maintenance works to confirm that they had not engaged in anticompetitive behavior prior to bidding;

which the CC recommends to be included as mandatory criteria in future bids for relevant large-scale building maintenance works;

(5) Finally, on the question of criminalisation and legislative reform, the CC has continued to work closely with the Commerce and Economic Development Bureau (“CEDB”), the Government’s Task Force on Investigation and Regulation, as well as other stakeholders such as the Hong Kong Bar Association on different options. Subject to any specific recommendations from the IC, the CC should be ready to propose a set of reforms to existing legislations with a view to enhancing the deterrent effect of the law and to better facilitate the detection and enforcement of the CO against cartelists in the building maintenance sector.

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Part 1: The legality and practicality of fee-scales

On day 21 of the Evidential Hearing (30 April 2026), a series of exchanges took place between the representative of the URA (Mr. Wong Se King (“Mr. Wong”)), Leading Counsel to the IC, and the Chairman of the IC concerning a set of fee-scales which was published by the HKIS.2 At the end of the exchange, the Chairman requested the CC to provide some assistance in respect of the legality and practicality of fee-scales noting, especially, that: “The public may want to have more information about this. Without violating the Competition Ordinance, how can we have more of such information?” 5. In order to address the Chairman’s question, the CC will:

(1) first, set out the relevant background of its exchanges with the HKIS in 2015 and 2016;

(2) second, set out the relevant principles of law and why it would be unlawful for members of a trade association (such as the HKIS) to discuss and agree on a set of fee-scales; and

(3) third, set out why it would not be unlawful for a statutory body (such as the URA) to compile such fee-scales and to provide the CC’s recommendations as to how that might be done in compliance with the CO.

Relevant Background

In 2015, as part of the CC’s initiative to prepare different Hong Kong trade associations for the commencement of the CO (which came into full effect on 14 December 2015), the CC had reviewed the practices of all trade associations in Hong Kong and upon discovering practices which may risk contravening the CO, notified these trade associations of the relevant compliance risks.

As part of this project, the CC had reviewed the practices of the HKIS and noted, in particular, that its publication of fee-scales in relation to “Professional Charges for Building Surveying Services”, the “Scale of Professional Charges for Land Surveying Services”, and the “Scale of

2 [Day 21, 96:19-101:23]

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Professional Charges for General Practice Services in Hong Kong” may contravene the FCR.

Between 2015 and 2016, the CC and HKIS engaged in numerous communications over the CC’s concerns and in 2016, the HKIS, through its solicitors, informed the CC that it was abolishing the said fee-scales.

According to HKIS’ own Annual Report for 2015/16 this was done upon the HKIS being advised by its own appointed legal advisors “that the Fee Scales… were in contravention of the [CO] and should be abolished.”: see. paragraph 4.7 of HKIS’ Annual Report for 2015/16 [Tab-2].

It was therefore in these circumstances that the HKIS had voluntarily removed the relevant fee-scales and their corresponding association rules.

Fee-Scales Compiled by Trade Associations - Relevant Legal Principles

Fundamental to the notion that competition generates consumer welfare is the idea that in a market economy, businesses operating independently will always seek to provide better goods and services and/or provide such services at lower prices and better quality compared to their rivals in order to win businesses from consumers. The more intense the rivalry, the greater the incentive for businesses to seek to capture their businesses by providing greater value to the consumer.

Correspondingly, the greater the degree of uncertainty amongst business as to how its rivals may conduct themselves on the relevant market (e.g. what prices they will charge), the stronger the competitive pressure would be on those businesses to offer greater value to consumers (see. in particular, paragraph 15 below).

Central to competition law is therefore the protection of this rivalry and feature of uncertainty through prohibiting any means by which businesses may directly or indirectly disclose their future market intent to each other.

As was observed by the Competition Tribunal in Competition Commission v Nutanix [2019] HKCT 2 [Tab-3]: “32. Any direct or indirect contact between economic operators of such a nature as to disclose to a competitor the course of conduct which they themselves have decided to adopt or contemplate adopting on the market, where the object or effect of such contact is to create conditions of competition which do not correspond to the normal

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conditions of the market in question, constitutes a concerted practice…

  1. In order to prove a concerted practice, it is not therefore necessary

to show that the competitor in question has formally undertaken to adopt a particular course of conduct. It is sufficient that, by its statement of intention, the competitor should have eliminated or, at the very least, substantially reduced uncertainty as to the conduct to expect of the other on the market…” [citations omitted] 15. The protection of this state of rivalry and uncertainty amongst bidders is all the more important in the context of bidding and tendering. This is because:

(1) in any given tender, the procurer will likely have little / no idea as to what the state of the market is, what is likely to be the best deal it can get, and what sort of terms it should expect to purchase the relevant goods or services;

(2) while the procurer can try to better understand the market through its own research and analysis, this will likely require substantial time and costs, especially where the goods or services are highly technical in nature;

(3) the procurer may try to engage multiple suppliers and to try and “play” each of their proposed terms against one another. However, in addition to being costly in terms of time, it would similarly be hard for the procurer to know if the number of suppliers it had contacted was enough for it to secure the best deal. This is especially the case where the projected contract sum is sizeable and suppliers may be quoting at wildly different terms / prices;

(4) the procurer may address this information asymmetry through conducting a competitive bidding process. Specifically, the procurer can invite a larger number of suppliers to submit their best offer at a designated date while, at the same time, letting the suppliers know that a large number of their rivals have also been invited to submit their best offers;

(5) as each supplier prepares its best offer for submission, they will know its own cost for providing the goods / services and may also have a reasonably good idea about the cost of its rivals. Its final offer will therefore be influenced by a combination of its own cost,

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its beliefs about its rivals’ cost, the number of rivals that have been invited to participate, and the profits it can expect to obtain (all of this information being otherwise unknown to the procurer);

(6) through the process of competitive tendering, the procurer is thus able to overcome the problem of its ignorance about the market - by requiring the suppliers to solve the problem through their own rivalry;

(7) the rivalry, which is essential to achieving what the procurer wants, is contrary to the joint interest of the suppliers. If a supplier is able to discover what other suppliers will do (e.g. what their terms of bid are), this will reduce their rivalry and allow the suppliers to increase their joint profits - especially if they can find a way to share the benefits of the reduced rivalry;

(8) the simultaneous consideration of offers by informed bidders, who know that they must prevail against similarly informed rivals in head-to-head competition in order to obtain the payoff (i.e. to win the bid), is a powerful market force which the procurer can pray-in- aid of even if it is uninformed about the relevant market characteristics;

(9) the intensity of the rivalry and the uncertainty among bidders is what encumbers the profits for the bidders. Collusion by the bidders, especially if it reduces this uncertainty, increases payoffs by suppressing that rivalry.

(c.f. The Economics of Collusion - Cartel and Bidding Rings at pp. 164- 166 [Tab-4]).

It is, in the circumstances, why collusion between businesses are universally condemned by competition law. To this end, section 6 of the CO [Tab-1] expressly prohibits: (1) undertakings (i.e. businesses) from entering into any agreement or concerted practices that has the object or effect of harming competition in Hong Kong; and

(2) specifically in the context of trade associations, members of those associations from making or giving effect to a decision of the association which has the object or effect of harming competition in Hong Kong.

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Fee-scales that are the result of members of a trade association discussing / agreeing on what a price they should charge for prospective works harm consumers because they are based on the incentives and profit maximizing aims of the associating members and not the interest of consumers. It is therefore unlikely to represent what a competitive price should be and may end up misleading consumers that it is.

Even if the fee-scales are stated to be “for general reference only” or that the association members are “free to depart from the fee-scale” it may still be capable of harming competition on the relevant market.

In the past, the argument that a set of fee-scales should not be regarded as being anticompetitive because it is of a non-binding nature and/or is intended to facilitate transparency for consumers has been rejected in the context of:

(1) fee guidelines issued by the Royal Institute of British Architects that were stated to be merely indicative and used only as a yardstick by which a client, who may be ignorant of what a reasonable charge is, can forecast the cost of the service;3

(2) a “list of average fees received by advocates” issued by the Rennes Bar for professional legal services that were rendered by its members on the basis that it was intended to act as a guide for clients;4

(3) a “Guideline on Fees” published by the Singapore Medical Association (“SMA”) which recommended a range of professional fees for a range of medical services to be provided by medical professionals in Singapore. This was despite the guidelines being recommendatory only and that they were meant to protect patients’

3 Royal Institute of British Architects, Case GP/908 (14 March 2003), OFT Competition Case closure summaries 1-31 March 2004 [Tab-5]. In particular, the Office of Fair Trade noted that: “Circulation of guidance on fees issued by an association of undertakings or a professional body may encourage tacit collusion as it is likely to provide a lead on prices which may hinder the ability or incentive of efficient firms to compete by reducing price to reflect their lower costs. It may also protect those who are less efficient and reduce the incentive to improve. The fact that the guidance was in the form of an indication rather than a binding decision did not prevent it from being a decision of an association of undertakings.”

4 Re. Fees Imposed by the Rennes Bar [1997] E.C.C. 469 [Tab-6]. In particular at [16] therein, the French Competition Council noted that “… by distributing the document in question the Rennes bar might have led its members to fix their fees on the basis of the figures reproduced in the list, instead of by reference to the terms and conditions of their own chambers” and then at [17] “although the [list of average fees] did not have the object of distorting competition in the market in question, it could have been used… as a reference by all advocates… Therefore the list, which was identifiable as a reference scale, constituted a concerted action which may have had the effect of distorting competition…”

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interest by reducing the information asymmetry between patients and medical practitioners.5

Finally, the publication of “guidance prices” 「指導價」; “base prices” 「 基準價」; “reference prices” 「參考價」; “recommended prices” 「推薦 價」; and “future prices” 「「預測價 」are also expressly regarded as being a “high risk activity” 「高風險行為 」for trade associations in the Chinese Mainland according to the guidance from the State Administration for Market Regulation.6

In view of all of the above, it was, and still is, the CC’s position that fee- scales which are the result of an agreement between members of a trade association will likely have the object of harming competition in Hong Kong and be unlawful under the FCR.7

The only exceptional situation in which fee-scales set by members of a trade association may not be in contravention of the FCR is if it can be demonstrated that it enhances overall economic efficiency pursuant to the conditions in s.1 Sch. 1 CO [Tab-1]. While each case must be assessed according to its own merits, the CC takes the view that fee-scales set by trade associations are unlikely to satisfy the requisite statutory criteria for the economic efficiency exclusion.8

Fee-Scales Compiled by Statutory Bodies - Relevant Legal Principles and CC’s Recommendations

Unlike the position of trade associations, statutory bodies stand on an entirely different footing both in terms of: 5 Application for Decision by the Singapore Medical Association in relation to its Guideline on Fees (Case number: CCS 400/001/09) (“SMA GOF Decision”) [Tab-7]. See. in particular [58] “… CCS is of the view that there is no reason for professional or trade associations to circulate recommended prices unless they intend to, at least, provide a reference for members and influence their independent pricing decisions”; [65] “… even recommendations that purport to be voluntary can have the object of restricting competition”; and then at [72] “… medical practitioners may argue that setting a minimum price helps to ensure that quality will not be compromised… Nevertheless, the jurisprudence is replete with judicial pronouncements rejecting such arguments, as there is no guarantee that, even with minimum price, quality level of services will necessarily be maintained.” 6 See. Article 10(2) of 国务院反垄断反不正当竞争委员会关于行业协会的反垄断指南 [Tab-8].

7 Guideline for the First Conduct Rule paras. 2.34 and 6.14 [Tab-9]

8 See, in this respect, CCS’ decision as to why it did not consider the SMA’s guideline of fees met the relevant criteria in Singapore’s equivalent of s.1 Sch. 1 CO: Part V of SMA GOF Decision [Tab-7].

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(1) jurisdiction; and

(2) theories of harm.

The FCR does not apply to statutory bodies in general

First, s.3 of the CO [Tab-1] expressly provides that the conduct rules (e.g. the FCR) does not apply to a statutory body unless they are expressly specified as such by the Chief Executive in Council.

As of today, only 6 statutory bodies have been expressly specified as such under the Competition (Application of Provisions) Regulation (Cap. 619A) [Tab-10]. They are namely:

(1) Ocean Park Corporation;

(2) Matilda and War Memorial Hospital;

(3) Kadoorie Farm and Botanic Garden Corporation;

(4) The Helena May;

(5) Federation of Hong Kong Industries; and

(6) The general committee of the Federation of Hong Kong Industries.

There is therefore no prospect of a statutory body, such as the URA, contravening the FCR should it decide to compile a fee-scale.9 The FCR does not apply where there is no collusion

Furthermore, fee-scales / reference prices that are compiled by a third-party (such as the URA) will not contravene the FCR if they do not involve collusion among competing businesses. 9 While not strictly relevant for present purposes, it should be made clear that there may be situations where the trade association is a statutory body but its members are not. In these situations, while the FCR may not apply to the trade association, it will continue to have application over its members. These members must therefore not, directly or indirectly, enter into any agreement / concerted practices / make or give effect to the decision of the association that has the object or effect of harming competition.

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In fact, the URA, itself, has through the Cost Reference Centre established by the Building Rehabilitation Platform, published a set of detailed “Reference Unit Rate” for “typical works items” in building rehabilitation works which are: (1) to be “used for reference in preparing the preliminary estimates for building rehabilitation works”;

(2) compiled using data “gathered periodically from the awarded contracts and returned tenders of building rehabilitation properties”; and

(3) intended to be updated “once a year for the reference of the public”.10

As the URA’s “Reference Unit Rate” does not involve / require building contractors to agree on a set of prospective fees, it will not contravene the FCR regardless of URA’s status as a statutory body. 11 CC’s recommendations

Notwithstanding the above, the CC has the following recommendations if a statutory body (such as the URA) wishes to compile a set of fee-scales / reference prices of consultants for the consideration of residents / property management companies: (1) first, if the fee-scales are compiled by benchmarking against previously awarded contracts, care must be taken to ensure that previous price actually reflects what is, in the opinion of the statutory body, reasonable and competitive and is not, itself, distorted (whether upwards or downwards) because of anti-competitive practices. It may, in this respect, be fallacious to simply assume that the market price is reflective of the competitive price if the market in question has been the subject of anticompetitive practices for a prolonged period of time;

(2) in the context of consultants that appear to be “undercharging” when compared with the fee-scale rates, it may be important for the

10 https://brplatform.org.hk/en/cost-reference-centre/reference-unit-rate

11 Notwithstanding the existence of such fee-scales, contractors on the relevant market must still independently determine their bidding prices in any given tender. Putting the point differently, any collusion amongst contractors to use the Reference Unit Rate as a form of focal point when bidding in tenders remains unlawful under the FCR.

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procuring residents to be adequately informed that there may, in certain circumstances, be legitimate business reasons why a particular consultant may be bidding aggressively or even seemingly at a loss. This may, for example, be where:

(a) the consultant is willing to forego some of its profit to gain relevant staffing and project experiences especially if it is a new entrant to the consultancy market and needs to accrue such experience in order to meet certain prequalification criteria; and/or

(b) the consultant has special technical know-how and expertise that enables it to carry out the relevant works in a manner that is more efficient / cost effective compared to its competitors. It is therefore able to lower its bidding prices without sacrificing its profits.

(3) stemming from (2) above, rather than simply disqualifying a relevant consultancy bid for being priced at a very low level, it may be prudent for the residents / property management companies to first ascertain whether any legitimate reason is present lest they end up disqualifying a genuine competitive tender; and

(4) finally, while a set of fee-scales may be helpful in informing the residents / property management companies which bids are suspiciously cheap, it does not necessarily follow that those bids which are within the fee-scale / reference price range must be free from manipulation. The use of fee-scales must therefore not be the only form of due diligence which needs to be carried out.

Conclusion on Fee-Scales

For the foregoing reasons, it is the CC’s position that: (1) fee-scales that are compiled by members of a trade association discussing / agreeing on prospective prices will likely contravene the FCR;

(2) fee-scales that are compiled by a statutory body (such as the URA) in circumstances that do not involve collusion between businesses will unlikely contravene the FCR; and

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(3) if a statutory body wishes to compile such a fee-scale, it should heed the issues raised at paragraph 30 above.

Part 2: CC’s recommendations that may be relevant to ToR(2)

The CC has previously provided its recommendations that may be relevant to ToR(2) in: (1) its written opening to the IC dated 9 March 2026 (in particular, paragraphs 27-33); and

(2) its written report to the IC dated 14 May 2026 (in particular, paragraphs 28-34);

the contents of which will not be repeated herein.

In terms of additional measures and developments since the filing of the above submissions, the IC may wish to note that: (1) the CC will shortly be publishing:

(a) a set of revised model NCC and NCTC to strengthen their efficacy in deterring anticompetitive behavior; and

(b) a pro-forma statutory declaration for prospective procurers to incorporate into their tenders - which will require bidders in building maintenance works to confirm, on oath, that they had not engaged in anticompetitive behavior prior to bidding.

which the CC recommends to be included as mandatory criteria in future bids for relevant large-scale building maintenance works; and

(3) on the question of criminalisation and legislative reform, the CC has continued to work closely with the CEDB, the Government’s Task Force on Investigation and Regulation, as well as other stakeholders such as the Hong Kong Bar Association on different options. Subject to any specific recommendations from the IC, the CC should be ready to propose a set of reform to existing legislations with a view to enhancing the deterrent effect of the law.

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Part 3: Concluding Remarks

The CC hopes that these submissions have adequately addressed the concerns of the IC (especially with regards to fee-scales) and will welcome any opportunity to further address / assist the IC. Dated the 17th day of June 2026.

Competition Commission

Re. Independent Committee in relation to the fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po (“IC”) List of Materials 1. Sections 3, 6, and s.1 Sch.1 of the Competition Ordinance (Cap. 619). 2. Para. 4.7 Annual Report of the Hong Kong Institute of Surveyors for 2015/16. 3. Competition Commission v Nutanix [2019] HKCT 2. 4. The Economics of Collusion - Cartel and Bidding Rings at pp. 164-166. 5. Royal Institute of British Architects, Case GP/908 (14 March 2003), OFT Competition Case closure summaries 1-31 March 2004. 6. Re. Fees Imposed by the Rennes Bar [1997] E.C.C. 469. 7. Application for Decision by the Singapore Medical Association in relation to its Guideline on Fees (Case number: CCS 400/001/09). 8. 国务院反垄断反不正当竞争委员会关于行业协会的反垄断指南. 9. Paras. 2.34 and 6.14 Guideline for the First Conduct Rule. 10. Competition (Application of Provisions) Regulation (Cap. 619A). Dated the 17th day of June 2026 Competition Commission

Chapter 619 Competition Ordinance 19/09/2019 Chapter 619 Competition Ordinance 19/09/2019 Chapter 619 Competition Ordinance 19/09/2019 3. Application to statutory bodies (1) The following provisions do not apply to a statutory body— (a) Part 2 (The conduct rules); (b) Part 4 (Enforcement powers of Commission); (c) Part 6 (Enforcement before Tribunal); and (d) Schedule 7 (Mergers). (2) Despite subsection (1), the provisions referred to in that subsection apply to— (a) a specified statutory body; and (b) a statutory body, to the extent that it is engaged in a specified activity. (3) In this section— (a) specified (指明) means specified in a regulation made for the purpose of this section by the Chief Executive in Council under section 5; and (b) a reference to a statutory body includes an employee or agent of the statutory body, acting in that capacity. 6. Prohibition of anti-competitive agreements, concerted practices and decisions (1) An undertaking must not— (a) make or give effect to an agreement; (b) engage in a concerted practice; or (c) as a member of an association of undertakings, make or give effect to a decision of the association, if the object or effect of the agreement, concerted practice or decision is to prevent, restrict or distort competition in Hong Kong. (2) Unless the context otherwise requires, a provision of this Ordinance which is expressed to apply to, or in relation to, an agreement is to be read as applying equally to, or in relation to, a concerted practice and a decision by an association of undertakings (but with any necessary modifications). (3) The prohibition imposed by subsection (1) is referred to in this Ordinance as the first conduct rule. Schedule 1 [ss. 9, 15, 24, 30, 36 & 163] General Exclusions from Conduct Rules 6/12/26, 5:17 PM Hong Kong e-Legislation - Print Selected Documents https://www.elegislation.gov.hk/printhtml 1/4

Agreements enhancing overall economic efficiency The first conduct rule does not apply to any agreement that— (a) contributes to— (i) improving production or distribution; or (ii) promoting technical or economic progress, while allowing consumers a fair share of the resulting benefit; (b) does not impose on the undertakings concerned restrictions that are not indispensable to the attainment of the objectives stated in paragraph (a); and (c) does not afford the undertakings concerned the possibility of eliminating competition in respect of a substantial part of the goods or services in question. 2. Compliance with legal requirements (1) The first conduct rule does not apply to an agreement to the extent that it is made for the purpose of complying with a legal requirement. (2) The second conduct rule does not apply to conduct to the extent that it is engaged in for the purpose of complying with a legal requirement. (3) In this section— legal requirement (法律規定) means a requirement— (a) imposed by or under any enactment in force in Hong Kong; or (b) imposed by any national law applying in Hong Kong. 3. Services of general economic interest etc. Neither the first conduct rule nor the second conduct rule applies to an undertaking entrusted by the Government with the operation of services of general economic interest in so far as the conduct rule would obstruct the performance, in law or in fact, of the particular tasks assigned to it. 4. Mergers (1) To the extent to which an agreement (either on its own or when taken together with another agreement) results in, or if carried out would result in, a merger, the first conduct rule does not apply to the agreement. (2) To the extent to which conduct (either on its own or when taken together with other conduct) results in, or if engaged in would result in, a merger, the second conduct rule does not apply to the conduct. 5. Agreements of lesser significance (1) The first conduct rule does not apply to— (a) an agreement between undertakings in any calendar year if the combined turnover of the undertakings for the turnover period does not exceed $200,000,000; 6/12/26, 5:17 PM Hong Kong e-Legislation - Print Selected Documents https://www.elegislation.gov.hk/printhtml 2/4

(b) a concerted practice engaged in by undertakings in any calendar year if the combined turnover of the undertakings for the turnover period does not exceed $200,000,000; or (c) a decision of an association of undertakings in any calendar year if the turnover of the association for the turnover period does not exceed $200,000,000. (2) Subsection (1) does not apply to an agreement, a concerted practice, or a decision of an association of undertakings, that involves serious anti-competitive conduct. (3) Subject to subsection (4), the turnover period of an undertaking is— (a) if the undertaking has a financial year, the financial year of the undertaking that ends in the preceding calendar year; or (b) if the undertaking does not have a financial year, the preceding calendar year. (4) The turnover period of an undertaking is the period specified as such for the purpose of this subsection in the regulations made under section 163(2) if— (a) for an undertaking that has a financial year— (i) the undertaking does not have a financial year that ends in the preceding calendar year; or (ii) the financial year of the undertaking that ends in the preceding calendar year is less than 12 months; or (b) for an undertaking that does not have a financial year— (i) the undertaking is not engaged in economic activity in the preceding calendar year; or (ii) the period in which the undertaking is engaged in economic activity in the preceding calendar year is less than 12 months. (5) In this section— preceding calendar year (對上公曆年) means the calendar year preceding the calendar year mentioned in subsection (1)(a), (b) or (c); turnover (營業額)— (a) in relation to an undertaking that is not an association of undertakings, means the total gross revenues of the undertaking whether obtained in Hong Kong or outside Hong Kong; and (b) in relation to an association of undertakings, means the total gross revenues of all the members of the association whether obtained in Hong Kong or outside Hong Kong. 6. Conduct of lesser significance (1) The second conduct rule does not apply to conduct engaged in by an undertaking the turnover of which does not exceed $40,000,000 for the turnover period. (2) Subject to subsection (3), the turnover period of an undertaking is— (a) if the undertaking has a financial year, the financial year of the undertaking that ends in the preceding calendar year; or 6/12/26, 5:17 PM Hong Kong e-Legislation - Print Selected Documents https://www.elegislation.gov.hk/printhtml 3/4

(b) if the undertaking does not have a financial year, the preceding calendar year. (3) The turnover period of an undertaking is the period specified as such for the purpose of this subsection in the regulations made under section 163(2) if— (a) for an undertaking that has a financial year— (i) the undertaking does not have a financial year that ends in the preceding calendar year; or (ii) the financial year of the undertaking that ends in the preceding calendar year is less than 12 months; or (b) for an undertaking that does not have a financial year— (i) the undertaking is not engaged in economic activity in the preceding calendar year; or (ii) the period in which the undertaking is engaged in economic activity in the preceding calendar year is less than 12 months. (4) In this section— preceding calendar year (對上公曆年) means the calendar year preceding the calendar year in which the conduct mentioned in subsection (1) is engaged in; turnover (營業額) means the total gross revenues of an undertaking whether obtained in Hong Kong or outside Hong Kong. 6/12/26, 5:17 PM Hong Kong e-Legislation - Print Selected Documents https://www.elegislation.gov.hk/printhtml 4/4

DIRECTORY AND ANNUAL REPORT 2015-2016

President's Report 34

  1. Members’ Communication and

Services We value members’ experience with the Institute. 4.1 Networking The HKIS Members’ Welfare Committee successfully held two drinks gatherings for members on 31 May and 1 December 2016, with 130 and 88 members in attendance respectively. These events provided invaluable networking opportunities for members across all grades and Divisions. 4.2 HKIS Archive An archive has been developed under the HKIS website to allow easier access to the Institute’s records, including its publications, reports and media coverage. 4.3 Wikipedia A Wikipedia page for the HKIS has been enhanced and updated with new contents to serve as a platform for the promotion of the Institute’s public stature. 4.4 Members’ Forums The Housing Policy Panel organised a discussion forum on “Elderly Housing Policy” on 17 June 2016. The forum reviewed the existing housing policy against the needs of the Elderly in Hong Kong. Speakers from different sectors shared their views on the role of the Government, NGOs and the private sector in this area, as well as issues surrounding the housing supply and demand situation in private and public housing. 4.5 Extraordinary General Meeting and Forum A discussion forum was held on 9 September 2016 to explain the rationale behind the resolutions on the proposed amendments to the HKIS Rules of Conduct, Constitution and Bye-Laws, the proposed revisions to annual subscriptions and application fees, and the ratification of Guidance Notes on Standards, before an Extraordinary General Meeting (EGM) was held to pass the resolutions. At the EGM held on 19 September, six out of seven resolutions were passed in respect of the amendments to the Rules of Conduct and Constitution relating to the Competition Ordinance, admission to membership and the ratification of Guidance Notes on Standards (namely the Rules of Conduct, Valuation Standards, Guidance Notes on Land Boundary Survey and Surveyors Acting As Experts in Commercial Rent Determination – A Joint Guidance Note with RICS Hong Kong) as well as the approval of an increase in the annual subscriptions and application fees for membership admission. The proposal to implement an automatic annual subscription adjustment mechanism was not passed. 4.6 Forum for the Creation of an Additional Post of Vice-President To cope with the growing demands and expectations arising from the development of the surveying profession, the General Council considered and agreed that it was necessary to add one additional post of Vice-President to the existing number of Office Bearers to assist in the affairs of the Institute. A discussion forum was organised by the General Council on 24 October 2016 to explain the rationale behind its decision. 4.7 Competition Ordinance A working group was formed to study the implications of the Scales of Professional Charges (or Fees Scales) and Rules 1.2.5 and 1.2.6 of the HKIS Rules of Conduct under the Competition Ordinance (Cap. 619). The HKIS was advised by the appointed legal advisors that the Fees Scales and the two Rules were in contravention of the Ordinance and should be abolished. Such abolition became effective at the EGM on 19 September. 4.8 Cooperation with Other Professional Institutes Regular meetings and liaison were held with four other professional institutes, the Hong Kong Institute of Architects, Hong Kong Institute of Planners, Hong Kong Institute of Landscape Architects and Hong Kong Institution of Engineers to exchange views and pursue subjects of common interest and concerns. The Institute participated in various functions of the Construction Industry Alliance in 2016 with an aim to promote the healthy growth of the construction industry in Hong Kong. We also exchanged views on subjects including membership reciprocity agreement and measures to better nurture our young members with the Royal Institution of Chartered Surveyors. We joined the

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V CTEA 1/2017 [2019] HKCT 2 IN THE COMPETITION TRIBUNAL OF THE HONG KONG SPECIAL ADMINISTRATIVE REGION COMPETITION TRIBUNAL ENFORCEMENT ACTION NO 1 OF 2017

BETWEEN COMPETITION COMMISSION Applicant

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NUTANIX HONG KONG LIMITED 1st Respondent BT HONG KONG LIMITED

2nd Respondent SIS INTERNATIONAL LIMITED 3rd Respondent INNOVIX DISTRIBUTION LIMITED 4th Respondent (trading as “INNOVIX DISTRIBUTION”) TECH‑21 SYSTEMS LIMITED 5th Respondent

Before: Hon G. Lam J, President of the Competition Tribunal Dates of Hearing: 20‑22, 25‑29 June, 3 July, 17‑20 September 2018 Date of Judgment: 17 May 2019

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V TABLE OF CONTENTS

Paragraph

A. INTRODUCTION··················································································· 1 B. LEGAL FRAMEWORK··········································································· 11

Statutory framework for prohibition and enforcement ························· 12

Warning notice················································································ 18

Guidelines issued by the Commission················································ 22

The first conduct rule········································································ 24

Agreement······················································································· 25

Concerted practice ··········································································· 28

Infringement by object······································································ 35

Vertical and horizontal agreements···················································· 40

Knowledge and foresight································································· 45 C. STANDARD OF PROOF········································································· 50

The parties’ contentions···································································· 51

The requirement of Art 11································································· 53

Is there derogation from the criminal standard of proof by statute?········ 63

Nature of competition proceedings and overseas jurisprudence ············ 68

Application of the applicable standard················································ 73 D. THE FACTS AND EVENTS···································································· 76

Nutanix’s hyper-converged system···················································· 77

Nutanix’s supply chain····································································· 80

Nutanix’s deal registration system····················································· 83

YWCA’s need for a new server system·············································· 88

YWCA’s procurement policy and procedures····································· 102

The first tender················································································ 105

The second tender············································································ 115

Submission of bids in the second tender············································· 138

a. Innovix··················································································· 141

b. SiS························································································· 149

c. Tech-21··················································································· 158

d. iCON······················································································ 166

The aftermath·················································································· 168

The third tender··············································································· 174

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V E. AGREEMENT BETWEEN NUTANIX AND BT······································· 181

The communications········································································ 183

Absence of Hung as witness····························································· 188

Whether the Commission may impugn Chan’s evidence······················ 196

Discussion······················································································· 200

Conclusion······················································································ 227 F. AGREEMENT BETWEEN NUTANIX AND SiS······································ 229 G. AGREEMENT BETWEEN NUTANIX, BT AND INNOVIX······················ 238 H. AGREEMENT BETWEEN NUTANIX AND TECH-21····························· 267 I. ATTRIBUTION OF CONDUCT AND KNOWLEDGE ····························· 288

The issue························································································· 288

The facts························································································· 290

a. The set-up within SiS······························································· 291

b. The second tender··································································· 297

c. Submitting the bid on 18 July 2016············································ 300

d. Meeting on 9 August 2016························································ 304

e. SiS’s company chop································································· 305

f. Shek’s motives········································································ 310

Special rule of attribution·································································· 315

The parties’ submissions··································································· 320

Overseas jurisprudence····································································· 323

a. EU ························································································ 323

b. UK ························································································ 332

c. Australia ················································································ 341

d. United States··········································································· 344

Section 91 of the Ordinance······························································ 346

Attribution for the first conduct rule··················································· 360

Application to the facts ···································································· 374

The Commission’s alternative case···················································· 378

Conclusion······················································································ 381 J. ANTI-COMPETITIVE OBJECT······························································ 382

General principles············································································ 382

Content and context of the agreements··············································· 392

Deal registration system··································································· 404

No inflated price·············································································· 408

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No quid pro quo··············································································· 413

Vertical vs horizontal······································································· 417

Subjective intentions········································································ 429

Knowledge of YWCA······································································ 435

Conclusion on “object” ···································································· 437 K. EXCLUSION UNDER SECTION 5 OF SCHEDULE 1······························ 440 L. WARNING NOTICE·············································································· 443

Section 82······················································································· 443

The relevant time for the purpose of s 82············································ 451

a. The pleadings·········································································· 451

b. The new point·········································································· 455

c. Objection to the new point························································ 458

d. Time for assessing existence of serious anti-competitive conduct under s 82················································································ 464

e. “Has reasonable cause to believe” ············································· 478

i. Subject matter of belief····················································· 479

ii. Subjective belief······························································ 486

iii. Objective basis································································ 490

Bid-rigging······················································································ 491 a. Statutory definition·································································· 491

b. Agreement·············································································· 494

c. Between 2 or more undertakings··············································· 497

d. Submission of bids or tenders arrived at by the agreement··········· 506

e. Agreement not made known····················································· 511

f. A further controlling quality? ··················································· 517

Whether made known to YWCA······················································· 519 a. The scope of the question························································· 520

b. Lok’s knowledge······································································ 524

c. Reasonable cause for belief as to knowledge······························ 545

The definition of bid-rigging applied·················································· 548 M. SUMMARY AND CONCLUSION··························································· 553

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V Abbreviations APD Administration and Procurement Department (YWCA) BT BT Hong Kong FLimited, the 2nd respondent Chan Mr CHAN Wai Ying Denis, Technical Pre‑Sales Manager of BT Cheung CHEUNG Kar Hay Danny, Assistant Product Manager of Innovix CJEU Court of Justice of the European Union Commission Competition Commission, the applicant EU European Union FAC Finance and Administration Committee (YWCA) Hung Mr Thomas HUNG, Territory Account Manager of Nutanix ICCPR International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights iCON iCON Business Systems Ltd Innovix Innovix Distribution Limited, the 4th respondent ISD Information System Department (YWCA) IT Information technology ITDC Information Technology Development Committee (YWCA) Li Mr Benny LI, Systems Engineer (YWCA) and assistant of Lok Lok Mr LOK Yiu Ying Alan, Head of ISD and Secretary of the ITDC (YWCA) Mak Mr MAK Pui Hing Harris, Administration and Procurement Manager of YWCA Nutanix Nutanix Hong Kong Limited, the 1st respondent Ordinance Competition Ordinance (Cap 619) Percy Ng Mr NG Tat Keung Percy, Alliance & Business Development Manager of BT Shek Mr SHEK Ka Kit Keith, Product Manager of SiS SiS SiS International Limited, the 3rd respondent Siu Mr SIU Kiu Fai Tommy, Product Manager of Innovix Steve Ng Mr NG Chi Hang Steve, Sales Manager of Tech‑21 Tech‑21 Tech‑21 Systems Limited, the 5th respondent TFEU Treaty for the Functioning of the European Union Tribunal Competition Tribunal UK United Kingdom Wong Mr WONG Ka Man Morris, Assistant Procurement Officer in the Administration and Procurement Department of YWCA YWCA Hong Kong Young Women’s Christian Association

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A. INTRODUCTION 1. In these proceedings, the Commission contends that the five respondents, in their conduct in relation to a call for tenders for IT equipment YWCA in July 2016, each contravened the first conduct rule (s 6(1) of the Ordinance) which prohibits agreements or concerted practices between undertakings the object or effect of which is to prevent, restrict or distort competition in Hong Kong. The Commission seeks against each of them declarations of contravention and orders for pecuniary penalty pursuant to s 93. 2. Broadly described, the Commission’s case is as follows. In July 2016, in response to YWCA’s invitation to tender for the supply and installation of a Nutanix cloud-based server system, BT planned to submit a bid. YWCA’s procurement policy required a minimum of five bids for this tender. Where fewer than five bids were received, special approval would be required before the contract could be awarded. A prior tender had failed because only one bid was received (from BT). For the second tender, to assist BT’s bid, Hung (Nutanix) agreed with Chan (BT) that Hung would obtain four “dummy bids” (in the sense of non-genuine bids) from friendly Nutanix channel partners. Chan gave BT’s completed bid including the bid prices to Hung. Hung prepared bids for SiS, Innovix, Tech-21 and another IT company (iCON) with substantially higher bid prices than BT’s, and separately agreed with Shek (SiS), Siu (Innovix) and Steve Ng (Tech-21) and a friend from iCON, for them to sign the bids which he arranged to be submitted. Pursuant to these agreements, SiS, Innovix and Tech‑21 (but not iCON) each submitted a dummy bid to YWCA, in addition to the bid submitted by BT.

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V 3. The Commission contends that the arrangements between Nutanix and BT, Nutanix and SiS, and Nutanix and Tech-21 respectively were vertical, bilateral agreements or concerted practices, and that the arrangement with Innovix was either a trilateral one between Nutanix, BT and Innovix or a bilateral one between Nutanix and Innovix. 4. The Commission contends that the respondents’ conduct constituted contravention of the first conduct rule, in that they made or gave effect to agreements or engaged in concerted practices with the object of preventing, restricting or distorting competition. 5. The Commission further contends that the respondents’ conduct constituted “bid‑rigging” and therefore “serious anti‑competitive conduct” as defined in the Ordinance and that therefore no warning notice was required to be issued to them before the commencement of these proceedings in the Tribunal. 6. In broad terms, the respondents have raised the following matters. Nutanix and BT dispute that they agreed to procure, and Innovix and Tech-21 dispute that they agreed to submit, non-genuine bids. They contend that the bids submitted were genuine bids with prospects (albeit low prospects) of success. SiS contends that it was a junior employee (Shek) who privately agreed to and did submit a bid in its name, and that his conduct was outside his scope of work and authority and not attributable to SiS, which carried on business as a distributor and had never taken part in end-users’ tenders. 7. The respondents contend that any such agreements or concerted practices as existed did not have the object of preventing, restricting or distorting competition.

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V 8. Further and in any event, the respondents contend that their conduct did not constitute “bid-rigging” for various reasons including that YWCA knew of their agreements. Accordingly, a warning notice was required before proceedings could be instituted against them and, since none was issued, the proceedings must be dismissed. 9. Separately, Tech-21 has argued that the first conduct rule is excluded by virtue of s 5 of Schedule 1 to the Ordinance on the ground that it has not been shown that the combined turnover of itself and Nutanix for the relevant year exceeds $200 million. 10. This judgment is structured as follows. Section B introduces the general legal framework and basic concepts in the Ordinance relevant to this case. Section C deals with the standard of proof the Commission has to meet in this application. Section D sets out the facts and events which are largely uncontroversial or supported by incontrovertible evidence. Sections E, F, G and H each deals with the agreements or concerted practices between Nutanix and BT, Nutanix and SiS, Nutanix and Innvoix (and BT), and Nutanix and Tech-21 respectively. Section I considers the question of attribution of Shek’s conduct to SiS. Section J is concerned with whether the agreements or concerted practices found had the object of preventing, restricting or distorting competition. Section K deals with the exclusion under s 5 of Schedule 1. Section L deals with the issues concerning warning notice, including whether there was bid-rigging and whether the agreements were made known to YWCA. A brief summary is set out in Section M.

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V B. LEGAL FRAMEWORK 11. In this section I shall outline the statutory scheme so far as relevant and explain in general some of the principal concepts that may be relevant in this case. (1) Statutory framework for prohibition and enforcement 12. The Ordinance lays down three prescriptive provisions called “competition rules”. They include two “conduct rules”, namely, the first conduct rule (s 6) and the second conduct rule (s 21), and a “merger rule” (Schedule 7, s 3). 13. Section 6, which lays down the first conduct rule, provides: “ (1) An undertaking must not— (a) make or give effect to an agreement; (b) engage in a concerted practice; or (c) as a member of an association of undertakings, make or give effect to a decision of the association, if the object or effect of the agreement, concerted practice or decision is to prevent, restrict or distort competition in Hong Kong. (2) Unless the context otherwise requires, a provision of this Ordinance which is expressed to apply to, or in relation to, an agreement is to be read as applying equally to, or in relation to, a concerted practice and a decision by an association of undertakings (but with any necessary modifications). (3) The prohibition imposed by subsection (1) is referred to in this Ordinance as the “first conduct rule”.” 14. In the present case the Commission alleges infringement of the first conduct rule “by object”. In this respect, s 6 has to be read together with s 7(1) and (2), which provide that:

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V (1) if an agreement, concerted practice or decision has more than one object, it falls within the first conduct rule if one of its objects is to prevent, restrict or distort competition (s 7(1)); and (2) the object of prevention, restriction or distortion of competition may be found even if it can be ascertained only by inference (s 7(2)). 15. Following such investigation as it considers appropriate, the Commission may apply under s 92 to this Tribunal for a pecuniary penalty to be imposed on any person it has reasonable cause to believe (a) has contravened a competition rule, or (b) has been involved in a contravention of a competition rule. In addition to pecuniary penalty, under s 94 the Tribunal has power to make a wide range of orders specified in Schedule 3. 16. The Tribunal is set up under the Ordinance as a superior court of record consisting only of the judges of the Court of First Instance: ss 134‑135. It has all the powers, rights and privileges of the Court of First Instance with respect to witnesses, production of documents and enforcement of its orders: s 143(1). It may receive any evidence whether or not admissible in a court of law and is not bound by the rules of evidence except in proceedings in which pecuniary or financial penalties are sought: ss 143(2) and 147. 17. Section 93(1) empowers the Tribunal, if it is satisfied on such application, that a person has contravened or been involved in a contravention of a competition rule, to order that person to pay to the Government a pecuniary penalty. Section 93(2)‑(4) make further provision for the determination of the amount of a pecuniary penalty. According to s 93(3), the penalty may not exceed in total 10% of the turnover of the undertaking

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V concerned for each year in which the contravention occurred, or, if it occurred in more than three years, 10% of the turnover for the highest three years. (2) Warning notice 18. Sections 92 and 93, however, have to be read subject to s 82. Section 82(1) provides: “ If the Commission has reasonable cause to believe that— (a) a contravention of the first conduct rule has occurred; and (b) the contravention does not involve serious anti‑competitive conduct, the Commission must, before bringing proceedings in the Tribunal against the undertaking whose conduct is alleged to constitute the contravention, issue a notice (a “warning notice”) to the undertaking.” 19. A warning notice has to state that the Commission requires the undertaking to cease the contravening conduct within the period specified in the notice, and not to repeat that conduct after that period: see s 82(2)(d)(i). It is only after the warning period has expired, where there is reasonable cause to believe that the contravening conduct has continued or is repeated, that the Commission may bring proceedings in the Tribunal, and then not in respect of any period preceding the warning period: see s 82(4) and (5). 20. “Serious anti‑competitive conduct” is defined in s 2(1) to mean: “ any conduct that consists of any of the following or any combination of the following— (a) fixing, maintaining, increasing or controlling the price for the supply of goods or services; (b) allocating sales, territories, customers or markets for the production or supply of goods or services; (c) fixing, maintaining, controlling, preventing, limiting or

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V eliminating the production or supply of goods or services; (d) bid‑rigging”. 21. Section 2(2) lays down a specific definition of “bid‑rigging” for the purposes of the definition of “serious anti‑competitive conduct”, which is set out in §491 below. (3) Guidelines issued by the Commission 22. Certain guidelines have been issued by the Commission as required by s 35(1) of the Ordinance, including the Guideline on the First Conduct Rule. These guidelines are not subsidiary legislation (see s 35(8)) but the Legislative Council must be consulted before they are issued or amended (see s 35(4)). They represent the Commission’s views and policies and provide guidance to the public, but have no binding legal effect on this Tribunal and the courts or indeed on anyone else. Thus s 35(6) of the Ordinance provides: “ A person does not incur any civil or criminal liability only because the person has contravened any guidelines issued under this section or any amendments made to them.” 23. However, s 35(7) goes on to provide that: “ If, in any legal proceedings, the Tribunal or any other court is satisfied that a guideline is relevant to determining a matter that is in issue— (a) the guideline is admissible in evidence in the proceedings; and (b) proof that a person contravened or did not contravene the guideline may be relied on by any party to the proceedings as tending to establish or negate the matter.”

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V (4) The first conduct rule 24. The first conduct rule is modelled on Art. 101(1) of the TFEU. 1 Both provisions are directed at undertakings; both target agreements, concerted practices and decisions of associations of undertakings; both refer to the object and effect of these arrangements in the alternative, in each case with regard to the prevention, restriction or distortion of competition. EU case law is of obvious value in relation to the interpretation and application of the first conduct rule. (5) Agreement 25. The present case is not concerned with decisions of associations of undertakings. Only agreements and concerted practices are relevant. An “agreement” is not required to be in any particular form and is not limited to a legally enforceable contract but is defined broadly in s 2(1) to include: “ any agreement, arrangement, understanding, promise or undertaking, whether express or implied, written or oral, and whether or not enforceable or intended to be enforceable by legal proceedings.” 26. It is not in dispute that the central component in the concept of agreement is a meeting of minds or a concurrence of wills between at least

1 Art. 101(1) of the TFEU provides:

“ The following shall be prohibited as incompatible with the internal market: all agreements between undertakings, decisions by associations of undertakings and concerted practices which may affect trade between Member States and which have as their object or effect the prevention, restriction or distortion of competition within the internal market, and in particular those which: (a) directly or indirectly fix purchase or selling prices or any other trading conditions; (b) limit or control production, markets, technical development, or investment; (c) share markets or sources of supply; (d) apply dissimilar conditions to equivalent transactions with other trading parties, thereby placing them at a competitive disadvantage; (e) make the conclusion of contracts subject to acceptance by the other parties of supplementary obligations which, by their nature or according to commercial usage, have no connection with the subject of such contracts.”

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V two parties. In Case T‑41/96 Bayer v Commission,2 the General Court of the EU, based on previous case law, stated (at §69) that the concept of agreement centres around the existence of a concurrence of wills between at least two parties, the form in which it is manifested being unimportant so long as it constitutes the faithful expression of the parties’ intention.3 It is sufficient that the undertakings in question should have expressed their common intention to conduct themselves on the market in a specific way (§67; on appeal to CJEU, at §97). For the purpose of the first conduct rule, an agreement does not, in my view, require the same certainty as would be necessary for the creation of a contract enforceable at law. 27. The concurrence of wills does not have to consist in an explicit offer and acceptance. An agreement can equally exist where an apparently unilateral anti‑competitive measure adopted by one party, constituting an invitation to another party, whether express or implied, to fulfil that goal jointly, receives the tacit acquiescence of that other party: Bayer v Commission, at §§71‑72, on appeal at §102. It is not essential to have direct evidence of express communications; the existence of an agreement can be deduced from the conduct of the parties (Bayer, on appeal, at §100), subject of course to meeting the applicable standard of proof. The inclusion of “understanding” in the statutory definition, in my view, reinforces that tacit dealings suffice and also shows that there can be an agreement even if there is nothing to prevent either party from going back on it. (6) Concerted practice

2 [2000] ECR II‑3383. 3 The passage was apparently approved by the Court of Justice on appeal: Joined Cases C‑2/01 & C‑3/01P [2004] ECR I‑23, §97.

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V 28. “Concerted practice” is not defined in the Ordinance. It is a concept borrowed from EU jurisprudence. A consistent line of decisions in the EU case law, starting with Case 48/69 etc ICI v Commission [1972] ECR 619,4 has held that a concerted practice is: “ a form of coordination between undertakings by which, without it having been taken to the stage where an agreement properly so‑called has been concluded, practical cooperation between them is knowingly substituted for the risks of competition.” 29. The criteria of coordination and cooperation do not require the working out of an actual plan, and must be understood in the light of the concept that each economic operator must determine independently the policy which he intends to adopt on the market: Suiker Unie, §§172‑173. Further (at §174): “ Although it is correct to say that this requirement of independence does not deprive economic operators of the right to adapt themselves intelligently to the existing and anticipated conduct of their competitors, it does however strictly preclude any direct or indirect contact between such operators, the object or effect whereof is either to influence the conduct on the market of an actual or potential competitor or to disclose to such a competitor the course of conduct which they themselves have decided to adopt or contemplate adopting on the market.” 30. Reciprocal contact between the undertakings in question is implied in the concept of “concerted practice”, in the sense that there is an element of acting in concert “where one competitor discloses its future intentions or conduct on the market to another when the latter requests it or, at the very least, accepts it …”: see Joined Cases T‑25/95 Cimenteries CBR v Commission, EU:T:2000:77, §1849.

4 Case 40/73 etc, Suiker Unie v Commission, EU:C:1975:174, [1975] ECR 1663, §191; Joined Cases C‑89/85 A. Ahlström Osakeyhtiö v Commission (Woodpulp II), EU:C:1993:120, [1993] ECR I‑1307, §63; Case C-8/08 T-Mobile, §26. The quotation is taken from T-Mobile at §26.

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V 31. The fact that only one participant reveals his future intentions or other competitive information is not sufficient to exclude the possibility of an agreement or concerted practice, since the recipient of the information in question cannot normally fail to take that information into account when formulating its policy on the market: Cases T‑202/98 etc Tate & Lyle plc v Commission [2001] ECR II‑2035.5 32. Any direct or indirect contact between economic operators of such a nature as to disclose to a competitor the course of conduct which they themselves have decided to adopt or contemplate adopting on the market, where the object or effect of such contact is to create conditions of competition which do not correspond to the normal conditions of the market in question, constitutes a concerted practice: Case C-49/92P Commission v Anic Partecipazioni SpA, EU:C:1999:356, §117; C-199/92P Hüls AG v Commission, §160. 33. In order to prove a concerted practice, it is not therefore necessary to show that the competitor in question has formally undertaken to adopt a particular course of conduct. It is sufficient that, by its statement of intention, the competitor should have eliminated or, at the very least, substantially reduced uncertainty as to the conduct to expect of the other on the market: Cimenteries at §1852. 34. There was some debate in this case concerning the distinction between agreements and concerted practices, and their relationship inter se. Ultimately it seems to me that the difference between the parties is simply a difference in focus and emphasis. That the two concepts are not synonymous

5 Upheld on appeal to the CJEU in Case C-359/01P British Sugar plc v Commission, ECLI:EU:C:2004:255, 29 April 2004.

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V is not in doubt. The fact that the legislature has employed two terms instead of one supports this. But the CJEU has stated that: (1) the relevant treaty provision is intended to apply to all collusion between undertakings, whatever the form it takes. “The only essential thing is the distinction between independent conduct, which is allowed, and collusion, which is not, regardless of any distinction between types of collusion”: Anic, §108; (2) the two concepts of agreement and concerted practice have partially different elements but are not mutually incompatible: Anic, §132; (3) the definitions of “agreement” and “concerted practice” are “ intended, from a subjective point of view, to catch forms of collusion having the same nature which are distinguishable from each other only by their intensity and the forms in which they manifest themselves”: see Case C‑8/08 T‑Mobile v Raad van bestuur van de Nederlandse Mededingingsautoriteit ECLI:EU:C:2009:343, at §23; Anic, §131; and (4) the distinction is made solely with the intention of catching such various forms of collusion: Case C‑194/14P AC‑Treuhand v Commission, ECLI:EU:C:2015:717, at §29. (7) Infringement by object 35. It is common ground that an anti‑competitive object and an anti‑competitive effect are alternative conditions in determining whether certain conduct is prohibited by the first conduct rule (see Case C‑56/65 Société Technique Minière v Maschinenbau Ulm, EU:C:1966:38, 249). In the present case the Commission only alleges infringement “by object” without

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V advancing a case of infringement “by effect”. Where it is established that an agreement has the object of preventing, distorting or restricting competition, it can be concluded there is an infringement of the first conduct rule without having to consider the actual effects of the agreement on competition. 36. In the leading EU case of Case C‑67/13P Groupement des cartes bancaires v Commission EU:C:2014:2204, the CJEU held that the General Court was wrong to find that the concept of restriction must not be interpreted “restrictively”, and that: “ The concept of restriction of competition “by object” can be applied only to certain types of coordination between undertakings which reveal a sufficient degree of harm to competition that it may be found that there is no need to examine their effects.” 37. Consistently with the case law that will be further discussed in section J below, the Commission’s Guideline on the First Conduct Rule (at §§3.2 – 3.6) explains that: (1) An arrangement which has the object of restricting competition is one that, by its nature, is harmful to competition. In relation to restrictions having the object of harming competition, there is no need to establish that they have anti-competitive effects. (2) In order to determine whether an agreement has the object of harming competition, regard must be had to the content of the agreement, the way it is implemented and its context (including both the economic and legal context). (3) Although determination of the object of an agreement essentially involves an objective assessment of its aims, there is nothing to prevent the parties’ subjective intention from being taken into account.

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V 38. Whether a concerted practice has an anti‑competitive object is judged by the same criteria as those applicable in the case of an agreement: T‑Mobile §24. 39. It is the contention of the Commission that the conduct in this case amounts to a prevention, restriction or distortion of competition by object and to bid‑rigging because it was intended to interfere with the proper competitive process of a tender. I shall return to these topics in sections J and L below. (8) Vertical and horizontal agreements 40. It is not in dispute that the first conduct rule applies not only to agreements between undertakings at the same level of the supply chain (horizontal agreements) but also agreements between undertakings at different levels (vertical agreements). 41. At a general level it is however correct to say that in many jurisdictions vertical agreements are viewed with less suspicion than horizontal agreements between competitors. Thus it is stated in the Commission’s Guideline on the First Conduct Rule that (omitting footnotes): “ 5.5 Vertical arrangements are, as a general matter, unlikely to be considered Serious Anti‑competitive Conduct although the definition of Serious Anti‑competitive Conduct does not preclude the possibility (there is no reference in the definition to “competitors”). 5.6 The Commission considers, however, that vertical arrangements may amount to Serious Anti‑competitive Conduct in certain cases. For example, in certain circumstances, resale price maintenance may be Serious Anti‑competitive Conduct.” 42. That said, whether a vertical agreement contravenes the first conduct rule in a particular case depends on the nature, content and context of

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V the agreement. As the CJEU stated in AC‑Treuhand at §35, the relevant prohibition refers generally to all agreements and concerted practices which, in either horizontal or vertical relationships, distort competition, irrespective of the market on which the parties operate. In the Commission’s Guideline on the First Conduct Rule it is stated: “ 6.6 While vertical agreements as compared with horizontal agreements are generally less harmful to competition, some vertical agreements may, nonetheless, cause harm to competition. 6.7 This may be the case where vertical agreements include restrictions which foreclose existing competition or limit the scope for market entry or expansion. In certain cases, vertical restrictions of competition may also serve to facilitate horizontal coordination between competing suppliers and/or downstream distributors.” 43. In Argos Ltd and Littlewoods Ltd v Office of Fair Trading [2006] EWCA Civ 1318, the English Court of Appeal also recognised the potential of vertical agreements to give rise to infringement of competition law. In terms of the general approach, the court stated: “ 28. The Chapter I prohibition catches agreements and concerted practices whether between undertakings at different levels or between those at the same level of commercial operation. An agreement between a supplier and a commercial customer, which may be called a vertical agreement, may breach the prohibition as much as an agreement between competing suppliers of the same product or the same type of product, which can be referred to as a horizontal agreement. 29. Each of these types of agreement may be a serious breach of the prohibition, but horizontal agreements have generally been regarded as more serious. It is unavoidable for a supplier and a customer to have dealings and agreements, though they ought not to be anti-competitive. It is not normal for competing undertakings to have dealings with each other, so that any dealings which they do have are regarded with greater suspicion. However, it may be in the interests of a supplier and several of its customers to restrict competition in relation to the supplier’s products, so that a serious breach of the Chapter I prohibition may be created by dealings between a supplier and two or more of its customers. …

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V 31. It is not in dispute that there could be a trilateral or multilateral agreement or concerted practice between two or more customers and their common supplier, nor that this might come about by virtue of indirect contact between the customers via that supplier. Equally it is clear that there could be a series of bilateral vertical agreements between one supplier and several of its customers, none of the customers being aware of the fact or nature of the agreements between the supplier and other customers, such that there would be no horizontal element to the customers’ agreements. If, on the other hand, each customer did know of the other agreements, it could be equivalent to a multilateral agreement between the supplier and each of the customers.” 44. In cases of that kind it is relevant to examine the structure of and parties to the agreement. In Argos Ltd and Littlewoods Ltd, the Court of Appeal considered the following scenario to fall within the case law of the CJEU on concerted practice (see §141): “ The proposition which, in our view, falls squarely within the Bayer judgment in the ECJ and which is sufficient to dispose of the point in the present appeal can be stated in more restricted terms: if (i) retailer A discloses to supplier B its future pricing intentions in circumstances where A may be taken to intend that B will make use of that information to influence market conditions by passing that information to other retailers (of whom C is or may be one), (ii) B does, in fact, pass that information to C in circumstances where C may be taken to know the circumstances in which the information was disclosed by A to B and (iii) C does, in fact, use the information in determining its own future pricing intentions, then A, B and C are all to be regarded as parties to a concerted practice having as its object the restriction or distortion of competition. The case is all the stronger where there is reciprocity: in the sense that C discloses to supplier B its future pricing intentions in circumstances where C may be taken to intend that B will make use of that information to influence market conditions by passing that information to (amongst others) A, and B does so.” (9) Knowledge and foresight 45. The Commission submitted that, in order to find that an undertaking participated in an anti‑competitive agreement or concerted practice, it is necessary to prove that the undertaking concerned intended to

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V contribute by its own conduct to the common objectives pursued by all the participants and that it was aware of the actual conduct planned or put into effect by other undertakings in pursuit of the same objectives or that it could reasonably have foreseen it and that it was prepared to take the risk: AC‑Treuhand, §30; see also Anic, §87, and C‑204/00P etc Aalborg Portland and Others v Commission, EU:C:2004:6, §83. 46. In Case T‑82/13 Panasonic Corp v Commission, the cartel lasted for a number of years and had a number of facets, and the different actors took part in different forms of collaboration with each other. The question arose whether Panasonic by virtue of its participation in certain forms of coordination could be held liable for the single and complex infringement as a whole. The General Court held that the mere fact that each undertaking takes part in the infringement in ways particular to it does not preclude responsibility for the entire infringement, including conduct put into effect by other undertakings sharing the same anti‑competitive object or effect (see §80). Panasonic could be held liable if it was aware of the other undertakings’ anti‑competitive activities or it could reasonably have foreseen them (§82). 47. In Case C‑542/14 VM Remonts v Konkurences padome, ECLI:EU:C:2016:578, three firms responded to a Latvian municipal council’s call for tenders for food supply. One firm, Pārtikas, had independently prepared a draft tender but had instructed another company providing legal services to prepare a formal tender and submit it on its behalf. That company had, in turn, engaged a sub‑contractor, MMD lietas, to perform this task. Without the knowledge of Pārtikas, MMD lietas had also undertaken to prepare the tenders of other two firms, VM Remonts and Ausma. An employee of MMD lietas used the price information received from Pārtikas as

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V a basis in preparing the bids of VM Remonts and Ausma, so that Ausma’s bid was approximately 5% lower than the Pārtikas’s and VM Remonts’ bid was in turn approximately 5% lower than Ausma’s. On a reference by the Latvian Supreme Court, the CJEU held (at §33) that an undertaking may, in principle, be held liable for a concerted practice on account of the acts of an independent service provider if (i) the service provider was in fact acting under the direction or control of the undertaking concerned, (ii) that undertaking was aware of the anti-competitive objectives pursued by its competitors and the service provider and intended to contribute to them by its own conduct, or (iii) that undertaking could reasonably have foreseen the anti‑competitive acts of its competitors and the service provider and was prepared to accept the risk which they entailed. 48. Precisely what an undertaking needs to be aware of or to expect will depend on the facts and evidence of the particular case. In the case of disclosure of commercially sensitive information, the English Court of Appeal considered in Argos Ltd and Littlewoods Ltd that there may be a concerted practice where A discloses to B its pricing intentions in circumstances where A foresees B would make use of the information to influence market conditions by passing it on to C, and B passes the information to C in circumstances where C appreciates that the information is being passed to him with A’s concurrence (see §§91 & 141). 49. There has been some debate between the parties in this case as to the relevance of reasonable foreseeability of the conduct of other parties. The respondents submitted that the approach taken in AC‑Treuhand and Panasonic is not applicable in the present kind of case and that VM Remonts should not be followed. On the view that I have taken of the evidence, it is unnecessary to deal with this debate.

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C. STANDARD OF PROOF 50. The Commission accepts, in my view correctly, having regard to the well‑known Engel criteria6 and the pecuniary penalties that the Tribunal is invited to impose, that these proceedings involve the determination of a criminal charge within the meaning of Arts. 10 and 11 of the Bill of Rights.7 The parties are in dispute, however, as to whether the standard of proof to be applied in these proceedings is the criminal standard of proof beyond reasonable doubt or the civil standard of proof on the balance of probabilities. (1) The parties’ contentions 51. The Commission acknowledges that because the proceedings involve the determination of a criminal charge, proof beyond reasonable doubt is the starting point. It contends, however, that the civil standard of proof nevertheless applies. Its submissions may be summarised as follows. A criminal classification for the purpose of Art. 11 of the Bill of Rights does not make the case a criminal one for all purposes under all laws. The precise implications of the classification must be determined on a case by case basis: see Han v Customs and Excise Commissioners [2001] 1 WLR 2253, §§84 and

  1. The applicable legislative rules indicate that these proceedings are

characterised internally as non‑criminal and that the rules of civil procedure should apply. Such internal classification and the application of civil procedure indicate that the legislature intended that the civil standard of proof

6 See Engel v The Netherlands (No 1) (1976) 1 EHRR 647 for the criteria, namely, (1) the classification of the offence under domestic law; (2) the nature of the offence; and (3) the nature and severity of the potential sanction. 7 Section 8 of the Hong Kong Bill of Rights Ordinance (Cap 383).

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V should apply. Applying the criminal standard might serve to frustrate the effective application of competition laws. The civil standard is applicable in other common law jurisdictions including Australia, Canada, New Zealand, Singapore and the UK, all of which (except Singapore) are state parties to the ICCPR. Application of the criminal standard of proof is not a “guaranteed” right under the Bill of Rights or ICCPR. Alternatively, if it is, then the application of the civil standard of proof in this particular case satisfies the proportionality test. 52. In contrast, the respondents contend that the criminal standard of proof should apply. Their submissions may broadly be summarised as follows. The Court of Final Appeal has decided in Koon Wing Yee that the criminal standard of proof is to be applied in proceedings involving the determination of a criminal charge under Hong Kong law, and that decision is binding on the Tribunal. There are legislative materials showing that the Administration’s intention was that the criminal standard should apply in proceedings where substantial pecuniary penalties were sought. In particular, SiS submitted that while it is in principle possible for the legislature to modify the standard of proof, any such modification must be prescribed by law and proportionate. Whether or not the legislature has in fact done so in a given case is a question of statutory construction governed by the principle of legality. The legislature has not modified the standard of proof in the Ordinance. (2) The requirement of Art 11 53. I begin with the question whether Art. 11 of the Bill of Rights requires the application of the criminal standard of proof. Art. 11(1), which is identical to Art. 14(2) of the ICCPR, provides:

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V “ Everyone charged with a criminal offence shall have the right to be presumed innocent until proved guilty according to law.” 54. While Art. 11 does not expressly stipulate any mandatory standard of proof, authoritative guidance has been laid down in Koon Wing Yee v Insider Dealing Tribunal (2008) 11 HKCFAR 170 as to what it requires. In that case, the Court of Final Appeal considered the question whether, in an inquiry conducted under the Securities (Insider Dealing) Ordinance (Cap 395), the Insider Dealing Tribunal was obliged to apply the criminal standard of proof. In his judgment, in which the other members of the court concurred, Sir Anthony Mason NPJ recognised that it was not clear that Art. 6(2) of the European Convention on Human Rights mandated the criminal standard of proof.8 His Lordship however noted that the position is clearer under Art. 14 of the ICCPR because General Comment No. 13 on Art. 14 of the ICCPR, which was later replaced by General Comment No. 32, stated: “No guilt can be presumed until the charge has been proved beyond reasonable doubt”. 55. In Koon Wing Yee, the relevant General Comment was No. 13 because the acts of infringements were committed and the tribunal inquiry took place both before 2007, when General Comment No. 32 was published. Nevertheless the court had regard to this later version which it considered to be a reinforcement of the criminal standard. General Comment No. 32 (para 30) stated: “ According to article 14, paragraph 2 everyone charged with a criminal offence shall have the right to be presumed innocent until proven guilty according to law. The presumption of innocence,

8 In Revenue and Customs Commissioners v Khawaja [2009] 1 WLR 398, decided after Koon Wing Yee, Mann J specifically held that the civil standard of proof applied in the UK in tax penalty cases despite the fact that Art. 6(2) was applicable; see also R (on the application of V) v Independent Appeal Panel for Tom Hood School [2010] EWCA Civ 142 at §33. In Jussila v Finland (2007) 45 EHRR 39 at §43, the European Court of Human Rights recognised that the criminal‑head guarantees will not necessarily apply “with their full stringency” to all proceedings classified as criminal by reference to the Engel criteria but which do not fall with the “hard core of criminal law”.

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V which is fundamental to the protection of human rights, imposes on the prosecution the burden of proving the charge, guarantees that no guilt can be presumed until the charge has been proved beyond reasonable doubt, ensures that the accused has the benefit of doubt, and requires that persons accused of a criminal act must be treated in accordance with this principle …” 56. Sir Anthony Mason NPJ continued to state in Koon Wing Yee (footnote omitted): “ 101. The General Comments are a valuable jurisprudential resource which is availed of by the Committee in its adjudicative role. While the General Comments are not binding on this Court, they provide influential guidance as to how the ICCPR is applied and will be applied by the Committee when sitting as a judicial body in making determinations.

  1. In Attorney‑General of Hong Kong v Lee Kwong‑kut, the

Privy Council regarded General Comment No.13 as indicating that the standard of proof beyond reasonable doubt was the general standard applicable for the purposes of art.14 of the ICCPR and art.11(1) of the BOR. The judgment of the Privy Council delivered by Lord Woolf makes it plain that art.14 of the ICCPR and art.11(1) of the BOR permit a degree of flexibility which allows a balance to be drawn between the interest of the person charged and the state so that sensible and reasonable deviations in certain situations are not proscribed. Lord Woolf is not to be understood, however, as suggesting that the substitution of the civil standard of proof for the criminal standard of proof in a proceeding classified as criminal would be a sensible or reasonable deviation.

  1. In my view, this Court should regard General Comment

No.13, in so far as it prescribed the standard of proof beyond reasonable doubt, as the appropriate standard to be applied for the purposes of art.11 of the BOR before it was replaced by General Comment No.32 (which then reinforced the application of that standard). In this respect, my view is strongly fortified by the fact that in our criminal jurisprudence proof beyond reasonable doubt is the standard to be applied once proceedings have been classified as involving the determination of a criminal charge.” 57. In the case before it, the Court of Final Appeal held that the criminal standard was applicable in the light of the criminal character of the proceedings which flowed from the presence of the power to impose the

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V penalty. Because it was impossible to say whether that standard had been applied by the tribunal, its findings were impaired. In the result, however, the Court held that the power to impose a penalty was invalid as being contrary to Arts. 10 and 11 of the Bill of Rights and, the reason for characterising the proceedings as criminal having been eliminated, the tribunal’s findings were reinstated and upheld. 58. In Attorney‑General of Hong Kong v Lee Kwong‑kut [1993] AC 951, the Privy Council had to consider whether certain statutory provisions creating offences9 were inconsistent with Art. 11 of the Hong Kong Bill of Rights in placing a burden of proof on the defendant. The parts of the judgment of Lord Woolf referred to by Sir Anthony Mason NPJ in Koon Wing Yee are as follows. At p 968B‑C, Lord Woolf, giving the advice of the Board, after quoting from General Comment No. 13, stated: “ However, it should not be assumed from this statement that the comparable article in the International Covenant to article 11(1) does not permit the degree of flexibility which is normally assumed to be implicit in any provision of general application which is of the same nature as article 11(1) of the Hong Kong Bill. Placing to one side for the moment the decisions in Canada all of the many decisions in different jurisdictions, to which their Lordships were referred, recognise that provisions similar to article 11(1) are always subject to implied limitations so that a contravention of the provisions does not automatically follow as a consequence of a burden on some issues being placed on a defendant at a criminal trial.” Further, at p 969D‑E, Lord Woolf stated: “ This implicit flexibility allows a balance to be drawn between the interest of the person charged and the state. There are situations where it is clearly sensible and reasonable that deviations should be allowed from the strict applications of the principle that the prosecution must prove the defendant’s guilt beyond reasonable doubt.”

9 Section 30 of the Summary Offences Ordinance (Cap 228) and s 25 of the Drug Trafficking (Recovery of Proceeds) Ordinance (Cap 405).

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V 59. There was argument before this Tribunal on the scope of the “flexibility” referred to by Lord Woolf and in particular whether such flexibility extended to the standard of proof applicable to a case as a whole. Upon fuller consideration of matter, I do not think the debate is open in this Tribunal. It seems to me that the tentative view I expressed obiter in Television Broadcasts Ltd v Communications Authority [2016] 2 HKLRD 41 (at §§290‑295) that Koon Wing Yee could be distinguished, was wrong. The ratio decidendi of Koon Wing Yee, consisting in the essential logical steps in the reasons for the conclusion (Saif Ali v Sydney Mitchell & Co [1978] 3 All ER 1033, 1040h‑j per Lord Diplock), seems to me to encompass the proposition that the appropriate standard of proof to be applied to proceedings classified as criminal for the purposes of Art. 11 is proof beyond reasonable doubt. It precludes this Tribunal from adopting the civil standard where pecuniary penalties are sought and the proceedings are to be classified as involving a determination of a criminal charge. 60. Every case is of course decided in the context of its facts, but it is in my view not open to this Tribunal to distinguish Koon Wing Yee on the basis that it involved insider dealing as opposed to an infraction of competition law. It is true that in earlier passages in his judgment 10 Sir Anthony Mason NPJ had referred to insider dealing as an “insidious mischief”, “very serious misconduct” and “a species of dishonest misconduct”, but these were stated as considerations favouring the classification of the proceedings as criminal (see §50), rather than as factors distinguishing insider dealing, for the purpose of standard of proof, from other conduct classified as criminal for Art. 11 purposes. In any event, there are also forms of competition law infringement, such as cartels and bid-rigging, that are viewed

10 Koon Wing Yee at §§45 and 46.

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V as serious misconduct and punishable as actual criminal offences in other jurisdictions including Australia, Canada, the UK and the United States. 61. Subsequent cases have reinforced the approach that Koon Wing Yee mandates. In Ng Po On v HKSAR (2008) 11 HKCFAR 91 at §22, Ribeiro PJ stated “there is a clear basis for suggesting that [the criminal] standard of proof is implicit within Article 11(1) of the Bill of Rights”. 62. In Wong Tak Wai v Commissioner of Correctional Services [2010] 4 HKLRD 409, the Court of Appeal held that prison disciplinary proceedings with the potential result of loss of remission for a serving prisoner involved the determination of a criminal charge for the purpose of Art. 11 of the Bill of Rights. Applying Koon Wing Yee, the Court of Appeal held that proof beyond reasonable doubt was required by Art. 11; see §100 of Kwan JA’s judgment with which Stock VP and A Cheung J (as they then were) agreed. (3) Is there derogation from the criminal standard of proof by statute? 63. It is common ground that even if Art. 11 mandates the criminal standard of proof, this requirement is not absolute and can be deviated from by proportionate legislation. The difficulty with the Commission’s submission that a civil standard of proof applies to all elements of liability, however, is that the Ordinance is silent on this matter, in contrast with other statutes (such as ss 218(7), 252(7) and 387 of the Securities and Futures Ordinance (Cap 571)) that expressly prescribe for the civil standard. It is well established that the legislature will not be taken to have intended any derogation from fundamental rights absent express and unambiguous language or necessary implication: A v Commissioner of Independent Commission

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V Against Corruption (2012) 15 HKCFAR 362, at §§28‑29, 67‑71; R v Secretary of State for the Home Department, ex parte Simms & Anor [2000] 2 AC 115, 131E. A necessary implication is one which necessarily follows from the express provisions of the statute construed in the context; it is a matter of express language and logic, not interpretation: R (on the application of Morgan Grenfell & Co Ltd) v Special Commissioner [2003] 1 AC 563 at §45. 64. The fact that s 144 of the Ordinance provides for civil procedure to be adopted by the Tribunal “in so far as it thinks fit” is not an indication of legislative intent that the civil standard of proof should apply, because it is perfectly possible for the applicable standard of proof to be the criminal one notwithstanding the proceedings take a civil mode with civil rules of procedure, as in the case of contempt of court: see Secretary for Justice v Cheung Kai Yin [2016] 4 HKLRD 367, §§25, 27 and 36; In re B (Children) (Care Proceedings: Standard of Proof) (CAFCASS intervening) [2009] 1 AC 11. It is unnecessary to examine the Competition Tribunal Rules or the Tribunal’s Practice Directions for the requisite legislative intent cannot be derived from them. 65. So far as legislative materials are concerned, the respondents relied on the proceedings of the 17th meeting of the Bills Committee on Competition Bill held on 21 June 2011 where it was stated: “ The Administration pointed out that contravention of the competition rules under the Bill would be subject to civil actions. If a substantial pecuniary penalty was to be imposed on a breach of the competition law, the criminal standard of proof would apply and criminal safeguards would be attracted to the legal proceedings.”11

11 LC Paper No. CB(1)3059/10-11, Appendix, p 8.

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V The context was, however, a discussion of the territorial application of the first conduct rule so that the sentence relied upon appears to have been a side comment made during the discussion of a different topic. 66. Reliance was also placed by the respondents on a speech by the Under‑Secretary for Commerce and Economic Development at a competition law forum in December 2009, which referred to the decision of the Court of Final Appeal in Koon Wing Yee and expressed the view that the criminal standard of proof had to be applied to meet the requirements of the Bill of Rights. 67. I do not regard these materials as of much significance. Their admissibility is in doubt. While legislative materials may be admitted to show the context in which a law was enacted, there is no need to rely on these materials to show that the administration and the legislature were aware of the decision in Koon Wing Yee. Nor do these materials go to the mischief at which the law was aimed. Beyond these established limits I am unable to see how these materials shed any light on the will of the legislature: PCCW-HKT Telephone Ltd v Telecommunications Authority (2005) 8 HKCFAR 337, §20. (4) Nature of competition proceedings and overseas jurisprudence 68. The Commission submitted that having regard to the potentially complex and technical nature of competition proceedings it would not be appropriate to apply the criminal standard. Reliance was placed on what the (UK) Competition Appeal Tribunal said in Napp Pharmaceutical Holding Ltd v Director General of Fair Trading [2002] CAT 1 at §106: “ We add that in many cases under the Act the factual issues before this Tribunal will often relate to such matters as determining the relevant market, whether dominance exists, and assessing whether

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V conduct characterised as an ‘abuse’ is economically justified. Issues of that kind involve a more or less complex assessment of mainly economic data and perhaps conflicting expert evidence. It seems to us more likely that Parliament would have intended us to apply the civil standard of proof to issues of this kind, rather than the time‑honoured criminal standard of ‘proof beyond reasonable doubt’.” 69. The Commission submitted that requiring the criminal standard of proof to be applied “might serve to frustrate the effective application of the competition laws”. A similar concern has been raised in relation to the proof of contravention of the equivalent of our second conduct rule in Whish & Bailey, Competition Law (9th ed), p 215, as follows: “If every case were to require the demonstration of anti‑competitive foreclosure effects beyond reasonable doubt, the enforcement of Article 102 might become all but impossible, which would bring one back to the problem of false negatives and false positives.” 70. The Commission further submitted that the civil standard of proof is also uniformly applied (either as a result of express statutory provisions or judicial decisions) in other common law jurisdictions in relation to the imposition of pecuniary penalties for contravention of competition law: (1) In Australia, Part IV of the Competition and Consumer Act 2010 lays down a number of prohibitions, including against anti- competitive contracts, arrangements and understandings. 12 Section 76(1)(a)(i) empowers the court to impose a pecuniary penalty if a person has contravened a provision of Part IV (other than criminal cartel offences). The standard of proof for breach of the competition provisions (other than in relation to criminal

12 For a summary, see Miller’s Australian Competition and Consumer Law Annotated (39th ed, 2017), pp 353‑354, 358‑361, 371‑380, 603‑607 and 611‑612.

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V proceedings for cartel offences13) is the civil standard of balance of probabilities: see s 140 Evidence Act 1995; Heating Centre Pty Ltd v Trade Practices Commission 65 ALR 429 at 435. (2) In Canada, issues before the Competition Tribunal are determined according to the civil standard of proof.14 The Competition Act contains provisions dealing with abuse of dominant position (ss 78 and 79). The application of these provisions lies with the Tribunal, which has power inter alia to impose significant financial penalties. 15 (3) In New Zealand, Part 2 of the Commerce Act 1986 deals with “restrictive trade practices”, including “contracts, arrangements, or understandings substantially lessening competition” (s 27) and “cartel provisions” (s 30A). The court may impose pecuniary penalties in relation to restrictive trade practices (s 80). The applicable standard of proof is the civil standard (s 79A). (4) In Singapore, the Competition Act (Cap 50B) prohibits agreements or concerted practices which have as their object or effect the prevention, restriction or distortion of competition (section 34 prohibition) and also prohibits the abuse of a dominant position (section 47 prohibition). Section 69(2)(d) empowers the Singapore Competition Commission to impose a financial penalty for the infringement of a section 34 or 47 prohibition. The standard of proof is the civil standard of balance of probabilities: see Konsortium Express and Tours Pte Ltd & Others v Competition Commission of Singapore [2011] SGCAB 1, §85. This standard has been consistently applied to bid‑rigging cases: Pang’s Motor Trading v Competition

13 See ss 45AF and 45AJ. 14 See Musgrove, Fundamentals of Canadian Competition Law (3rd ed), p 17. 15 See Musgrove, Fundamentals of Canadian Competition Law (3rd ed), p 255.

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V Commission of Singapore [2014] SGCAB 1 §40, though the issue was not argued in either case. (5) In the UK, while it is accepted that a finding of competition law infringement involves the determination of a criminal charge, the settled view is that the applicable standard of proof is the civil standard of balance of probabilities: Napp Pharmaceutical Holding Ltd v Director General of Fair Trading [2002] CAT 1, §§101‑106; JJB Sports v Office of Fair Trading [2004] CAT 17, §193; Chester City Council v Arriva [2007] EWHC 1373 (Ch), §10. This applies equally to cases involving bid rigging.16 71. Article 14 of the ICCPR (the equivalent of Art. 11 of the Bill of Rights) has not prevented the courts in Australia, Canada, New Zealand and the UK, all being state parties to the ICCPR, from applying the civil standard of proof to competition cases. As far as Art. 6 of the European Convention on Human Rights is concerned, proof beyond reasonable doubt is not even a concept to be found in many of the domestic systems of the party states, or in the jurisprudence of the courts of the EU.17 72. For the reasons I have given above, however, in the absence of express provision or necessary implication by statute, this Tribunal is not at liberty to apply any other standard than proof beyond reasonable doubt. The matters relied upon by the Commission are therefore not matters that can justify the application of the civil standard of proof by this Tribunal.

16 Eg see Makers UK Ltd v Office of Fair Trading [2007] CAT 11 §46; GMI Construction Holdings Plc v Office of Fair Trading [2011] CAT 12 §14; and Durkan Holdings Ltd v Office of Fair Trading [2011] CAT 6 §94. 17 See the summary of the position in the courts of the EU in Television Broadcasts Ltd v Communications Authority & Anor [2016] 2 HKLRD 41 at §§283‑284. There are, however, statements by the EU courts referring to the principle “in dubio pro reo” and that the “benefit of … doubt must be given to the undertakings accused of the infringement” of competition law: Case C-89/11P E.ON Energie AG v Commission, §§71-74.

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V (5) Application of the applicable standard 73. It is not in dispute what the applicable standard of proof requires. I would mention two aspects here. First, the Commission has submitted, and I do not understand it to be controverted by any respondent, that it is not necessary for every item of evidence produced to satisfy the standard of proof in relation to every aspect of the contravention. It is sufficient if the body of evidence relied on, viewed as a whole, satisfies the burden: Case C‑407/08P Knauf Gips v Commission EU:C:2010:389, §47; Myers v R [2015] UKPC 40, §46. 74. Secondly, there is no dispute that this Tribunal can, like any other trier of fact, draw appropriate inferences from facts. As noted by the CJEU in Case C-204/00 Aalborg Portland v Commission, in many competition cases the existence of the practice or agreement in question has to be inferred: “ 55. Since the prohibition on participating in anti-competitive agreements and the penalties which offenders may incur are well known, it is normal for the activities which those practices and those agreements entail to take place in a clandestine fashion, for meetings to be held in secret, most frequently in a non-member country, and for the associated documentation to be reduced to a minimum. 56. Even if the Commission discovers evidence explicitly showing unlawful contact between traders, such as the minutes of a meeting, it will normally be only fragmentary and sparse, so that it is often necessary to reconstitute certain details by deduction. 57. In most cases, the existence of an anti-competitive practice or agreement must be inferred from a number of coincidences and indicia which, taken together, may, in the absence of another plausible explanation, constitute evidence of an infringement of the competition rules.” 75. Equally clear is that where the criminal standard of proof applies, three conditions have to be satisfied for an inference to be drawn: (1) the inference must be grounded on clear findings of primary fact; (2) the inference

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V must be a logical consequence of those facts; and (3) the inference must be “irresistible”, that is, it must be the only inference that can reasonably be drawn on the basis of those facts: Winnie Lo v HKSAR (2012) 15 HKCFAR 16, §115.

D. THE FACTS AND EVENTS 76. This section sets out the background facts and the main events relating to YWCA’s tenders as found on the evidence. They are, for the most part, and unless otherwise specified, uncontroversial. (1) Nutanix’s hyper‑converged system 77. Founded in 2009 with its Hong Kong office established in December 2012, Nutanix is an IT infrastructure provider that sells “hyper‑converged infrastructure”. A hyper‑converged system is a new generation of servers. It is a software‑defined IT infrastructure that virtualizes all of the elements of the traditional “hardware‑defined” server system, including virtualized computing (a hypervisor), virtualized storage and virtualized networking, in a commodity hardware box. 78. Nutanix’s hyper‑converged system is a software product which can either be packaged and sold on Nutanix’s own branded hardware made by contract manufacturers, or on the tailored hardware of one of Nutanix’s OEM18 partners which included Dell and Lenovo at the time. These packaged

18 Original equipment manufacturer.

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V product combinations may be referred to as the Nutanix-NX solution, the Dell‑Nutanix solution and the Lenovo‑Nutanix solution respectively. The product can also be sold on a software‑only basis for use on compatible hardware provided by third party manufacturers. 79. Nutanix’s main competitors globally include traditional storage array vendors, traditional IT systems vendors which sell integrated systems, software providers such as VMware Inc, providers of public cloud infrastructure as well as a number of vendors which provide hyper‑converged infrastructure. (2) Nutanix’s supply chain 80. The Nutanix-NX solution is sold to end‑customers via Nutanix’s own network of distributors and resellers. In Hong Kong, as of July 2016, Nutanix had two non‑exclusive distributors, namely, Innovix and SiS, and around 23 approved resellers which were companies approved and authorised by Nutanix to re‑sell Nutanix products.19 Both BT and Tech‑21 were among these resellers. 81. Of the two distributors, Innovix mainly promoted and sold products to resellers, while it would also promote and sell to end‑users directly. SiS was permitted by its distributorship agreement to purchase Nutanix products for resale to both resellers and end‑users, but in practice it sold only to resellers and not directly to end‑users, with certain rare exceptions in special circumstances (see §291 below).

19 Innovix’s distributorship of Nutanix products has ceased since November 2017, but nothing turns on that.

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V 82. In Hong Kong, a reseller can only purchase the Nutanix-NX solution through a distributor, ie Innovix or SiS. For the Dell‑Nutanix or Lenovo‑Nutanix solution, the applicable hardware would have to be packaged with Nutanix software and then sold by the OEM partner, ie Dell or Lenovo, through its own sales teams or its network of channel partners, which may or may not also be channel partners of Nutanix. Dell or Lenovo would then pay Nutanix a royalty based on sales of Nutanix software as part of the combined product. In this particular case, as will be seen below, YWCA eventually purchased the equipment from a reseller of Dell. (3) Nutanix’s deal registration system 83. Nutanix runs a deal registration system to encourage its OEM partners, distributors and resellers to identify, cultivate and close sales opportunities. It allows business opportunities to be registered via an online platform with Nutanix who would provide discounted pricing exclusively for a specified period on the registered opportunity. Only one partner may register for each opportunity. Nutanix’s guidelines suggested that a deal registration could be granted to more than one partner for situations such as RFP20 or public sector requirements but this was considered non‑standard and an exception and required approval on a case‑by‑case basis. 84. With a deal registration in place, other interested partners are still free to pursue the opportunity and are generally entitled to a standard discount, but the registered deal discount is only available to the registered partner. In Nutanix’s published guidelines, the level of the registered deal discount is defined by the partner’s level and programme status in the Nutanix Channel Programme, product type and deal registration status, ranging between [●]%

20 “RFP” stands for “request for proposal”.

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V and [●]%. In practice, sales representatives are allowed flexibility to depart from the published levels. The actual registered deal discount is therefore a matter of discretion for the relevant sales representative on a case‑by‑case basis but generally does not exceed [●]%. 85. If the opportunity concerns solely a Nutanix-NX solution, it would either be the re‑seller registering for the opportunity or the distributor registering on behalf of the re‑seller. If the opportunity concerns a Dell‑Nutanix or Lenovo‑Nutanix product, Dell or Lenovo may register for the opportunity. 86. Upon receipt of a deal registration, Nutanix will validate the request which would include checking that there are no other active registrations for the same opportunity and that the partner is pursuing the opportunity in good faith. The registration, once recognised, will remain valid for 90 days, extendible at Nutanix’s discretion. 87. In the case of Dell‑Nutanix solutions or Lenovo‑Nutanix solutions, the integrated solution is sold by the OEM partner, i.e. Dell or Lenovo, directly, with a royalty paid to Nutanix. Where the OEM partner is registered with Nutanix for a particular opportunity, it may grant a discount to its channel partners of up to [●]% on the Nutanix component of the integrated solution, beyond which it will require special approval from Nutanix. (4) YWCA’s need for a new server system 88. In the first half of 2015, YWCA’s ISD was considering replacing the existing IT servers at YWCA Headquarters at MacDonnell Road, Mid‑Levels. The person responsible within YWCA for IT services was Lok,

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V the ISD Head. 89. At that time BT was working for YWCA on two other IT projects. One of them began in the third quarter of 2014, when BT was engaged to consult on a new Customer Relationship Management system to be used in YWCA centres. (For the implementation of the system, however, BT was outbidden by another company, though BT was later engaged to provide quality assurance checks on the implementation of that system in mid‑2015.) In the second project, BT was awarded a contract in March 2015 to set up an IT server room and to install the cables and Wi‑Fi routers for the YWCA Kowloon Centre in Ho Man Tin. In around the third quarter of 2015, BT was further awarded a contract to install the audio and visual equipment to be used at the YWCA Kowloon Centre, but this came later. 90. Percy Ng was the main person dealing with YWCA at that time. He was the Alliance & Business Development Manager of BT. His primary responsibility concerned the sales of BT’s IT products and services. Within his team, he was assisted by Chan, Technical Pre‑Sales Manager of BT. Percy Ng’s role was focused on more “commercial” matters involving pricing, customer relations, sales of products and internal BT approvals, whereas Chan was more concerned with the pre-sales technical matters such as the provision of technical support. 91. Whilst working on the server room project, Percy Ng enquired with Lok to see what server system YWCA intended to install in the server room in the Kowloon Centre and how the servers at YWCA’s Headquarters could support each other. Since YWCA also intended to replace the servers at the Headquarters, Lok asked for Percy Ng’s opinion and discussed with him YWCA’s server requirements. Percy Ng got Chan involved and together they

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V decided Nutanix’s cloud‑based server system would suit YWCA. In around mid‑2015 Percy Ng proposed to Lok that YWCA could consider using that system. 92. At around this time, between mid‑2015 and September 2015, BT registered the YWCA opportunity on Nutanix’s deal registration system. 93. In the initial stages BT was considering offering a Nutanix-NX solution to YWCA. On 28 July 2015, Chan sent an e‑mail to Siu (of Innovix) with the subject “YWCA quotation” for a quote based on Nutanix hardware. Siu in turn obtained quotes from Nutanix and, after a mark‑up, gave the quotes to Chan. When BT requested a lower quotation, Innovix provided a revised quotation but BT still complained (to both Innovix and Nutanix) that it was too expensive. On 5 August, after discussing with Chan, Hung wrote to Siu saying he would like to update him on the pricing strategy on YWCA. Shortly afterwards, Innovix provided another revised quote to BT for the equipment for YWCA. 94. At that stage, however, BT had not decided which Nutanix model to propose to YWCA. In late September 2015, Chan asked Hung for an update on which model BT should propose to YWCA. On 24 September 2015, Hung sent a bill of materials to Chan (copied to Siu and Cheung of Innovix) and stated the quotation was being prepared. 95. Following a meeting in early October 2015, BT considered the Dell‑Nutanix combination more suitable for YWCA having regard to their budget and storage configuration. YWCA’s ITDC (Information Technology Development Committee) also felt the Dell‑Nutanix solution would be better because they had confidence in Dell’s hardware and after‑sales maintenance.

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V 96. After further discussions, BT offered to arrange for the loaning of a Dell‑Nutanix hyper‑converged server to YWCA as part of BT’s “proof of concept” to test whether the server was capable of meeting YWCA’s needs. Such proof-of-concept exercise is common with clients making the switch from traditional IT infrastructure to hyper‑converged infrastructure. Three units of Dell‑Nutanix servers were later loaned (from Dell) to YWCA in late October 2015. 97. On 12 November 2015, Percy Ng and Chan delivered a presentation to YWCA’s ITDC to introduce the concept of a hyper‑converged system by using Nutanix’s system as an example. 98. On 5 January 2016, Cheung (Innovix) sent an e‑mail to Chan (BT) (copied to Siu) asking if there was anything else Innovix could do regarding “the Nutanix YWCA case”. Also in around early January 2016, Siu and Cheung learnt that YWCA’s preference had moved to a Dell‑Nutanix system. On 8 January 2016, Siu referred the YWCA matter to Innovix’s Dell team member Jacky Lee. 99. In late January or early February 2016, the deal registration for the YWCA opportunity was re‑registered with Nutanix through Dell. Dell registered it with reference to BT’s name, recognising that BT would derive some benefit of the deal registration for this opportunity. 100. BT helped YWCA with the proof-of-concept process, and also assisted Lok to deal with the queries that ITDC members had about the Nutanix system. On 7 January 2016, Eric Mak of Innovix was brought into the loop for the “p2v” troubleshooting (a physical‑to‑virtual process of migrating a physical server’s operating system, applications and data to a

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V virtual system). On 29 January 2016 Eric Mak forwarded an e‑mail chain to Siu from which it is clear that BT was conducting a proof-of-concept for YWCA. On 1 February 2016, Siu responded: “Ok, i will ask Dell HK order the OEM deal to us”. 101. While certain technical problems arose and various questions were raised by YWCA about the product and about Nutanix, the Dell‑Nutanix solution was eventually found to be suitable, and on 23 May 2016 the ITDC resolved that YWCA should procure Nutanix’s hyper‑converged system for Headquarters as well as for Kowloon Centre. ISD was to commence preparing for the procurement process. (5) YWCA’s procurement policy and procedures 102. Within YWCA, the APD (Administration and Procurement Department) is responsible for organising and overseeing the procurement of goods, services and works required by YWCA including through tender exercises. APD’s head was Mak, the Administration and Procurement Manager, who was assisted by Wong, an Assistant Procurement Officer. 103. Under YWCA’s procurement policy, contract for goods, services or works exceeding HK$50,000 must have written quotations from five companies. Procurement for goods exceeding HK$100,000, services exceeding HK$250,000 or works exceeding HK$500,000 must be conducted through a tender. Where the procurement involves a tender, the procurement decision must be approved by YWCA’s Tender Board, which is a sub‑committee of the FAC (Finance and Administration Committee). The Tender Board is composed of members from FAC, a member from the

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V relevant user department, and two Tender Board advisors selected from a list of external parties with relevant expertise. 104. The procurement policy required that at least five tender submissions be received from contractors or suppliers. If the requisite number of tenders is not obtained, approval from FAC and a report to YWCA’s board of directors are required before the contract can be awarded. (6) The first tender 105. Within YWCA, APD looked to ISD for preparing the technical specifications for the procurement exercise. ISD in turn received assistance from BT in preparing those specifications. Following discussions, Chan produced the first draft of the technical specifications which he sent to Lok on 10 June 2016. The specifications were for (i) Nutanix’s hyper‑converged system without specifying the brand of hardware to be used, together with (ii) hypervisors and (iii) backup software. At Lok’s suggestion, they had a meeting about the specifications on 16 June. 106. ISD then provided the revised draft technical specifications to APD, which prepared the other tender documents. On 20 June 2016, Wong e‑mailed Lok and his assistant, Li, the draft tender documents with a query on the technical specifications. Wong also asked Lok and Li to recommend suppliers for the purpose of completing the tenderers list. 107. Mak explained that this was on the basis that while it was APD that would make the final decision on which tenderers to invite, ISD was likely to have greater familiarity with the potential suppliers and was in a better position to ascertain the companies capable of supplying the server system.

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V 108. Li then made a call to Chan on the same day asking him to recommend the names of vendors in Hong Kong capable of supplying the Nutanix hyper‑converged system. Percy Ng then in turn sent a message to Hung saying he needed to provide vendors’ names for YWCA to issue the tender, listing six companies including BT and Tech‑21, and asked for Hung’s opinion. 109. As he was unable to reach Hung, Percy Ng decided to e‑mail to Li all the names of Nutanix’s suppliers that he knew, suggesting six companies including BT and Tech‑21 and mentioning four other companies that were on YWCA’s own suppliers list – a total of ten companies. 110. Li then gave this list to Lok. Based on the list, Lok sent a proposed tenderers list setting out those ten companies to APD for their consideration. 111. On 21 June, Hung asked Percy Ng: “Is it a dell Nutanix?” to which Percy Ng replied “yes”. Edward Yeung (Nutanix’s Managing Director – Hong Kong and Taiwan) suggested to Percy Ng that Expert Systems be removed from the list because they always “bugged” Nutanix for the best price. Percy Ng then asked Li to exclude Expert Systems. Hung also texted Percy Ng that morning, saying “I can assist to manage Tecg21 and basic bit” [sic]. Li then e‑mailed Wong (copied to Mak and Lok) asking him to exclude Expert Systems. Li later asked Wong to add one more company called ITRC. 112. With these revisions suggested by Li and additions made by Mak himself, the APD finalized a list of tenderers which included twelve companies. An invitation to tender was sent to them on 21 June 2016. The

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V twelve companies are as follows; they included BT and Tech‑21 but not

Nutanix, SiS or Innovix.

Afina Data Systems Ltd

Automated System Ltd

Basic Bit Technology Ltd

BT

HKT Ltd

ITRC

Microware Ltd

Nikoyo (HK) Ltd

Petabytes & Beyond Technology Ltd

Senco‑Masslink Technology Ltd

Tech‑21

Wafer Systems Ltd 113. Having received the invitation, on 21 June 2016 Chan wrote to his contacts in Dell, asking them for the latest quotation, with separate prices for product and maintenance items. 114. On 28 June 2016, after the tender deadline, it was found that only BT had submitted a bid while two other companies, namely, Basic Bit and ITRC, had written to YWCA to indicate that they declined to bid. (7) The second tender 115. In view of there being only one bid received, whereas YWCA’s procurement policy required at least five return bids, on about 30 June 2016, Gary Sze, Director of Finance and Administration of YWCA, together with Mak and Lok, decided to conduct a second tender for the Nutanix server system.

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V 116. In the next few days, in order to better organise the second tender, Mak and Wong contacted several of the companies which did not respond to the first tender to find out why they did not. The responses received included that the period for responding to the tender was too short, some of the mandatory items could not be supplied and that there were too many optional items listed. They passed on the feedback to Lok and asked him to prepare a new set of technical specifications for the second tender to make it easier for invitees to bid. 117. Quite a lot of activities took place on 5 July 2016, Tuesday: (1) At 09:20, Chan, who did not yet know the result of the first tender, texted to ask Lok whether there was any update on the first tender. (2) Lok telephoned Chan at 14:50 and they spoke for about six minutes. I find that in this conversation, Lok told Chan that the first tender failed because there were insufficient bids, that BT’s was the only bid, and that there would be a second tender. Lok did not positively deny this conversation; he only said he could not recall whether it was he or Li who told BT. In his first statement he said (at §18) that he told Chan on the phone. In this conversation Lok also asked Chan to provide names of companies who might be able to supply the equipment sought. (3) Chan called Hung at 15:37 and they spoke for ten minutes. In broad terms Chan and Hung agreed that Hung would get four friends of his who worked in Nutanix’s channel partners to submit bids in the second tender to make up the required minimum number of five. Chan asked Hung to provide him with

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V a list with contact details of the four bidders that day. What Chan and Hung agreed is dealt with in greater detail in section E below. (4) At 16:14, Chan sent Hung an e‑mail headed “YWCA tender docs” which set out in the body of the e‑mail the prices which BT proposed to include in its tender response. It also attached the tender documents sent out by YWCA. The e‑mail read: “ Hi Thomas, As discussed, attached is the tender spec document. This will change to just providing quotation for Nutanix HW and everything else like ESX license, Veeam license becomes optional so your friends don’t need to spend too much time on it. For our proposal, we are proposing the following the Dell XC630 model and price below. Anyway, once I finished the whole table, I will share it with you so you can give the quotation to your friend to just fill in. Thanks!” (5) At 16:22, Chan sent Lok an e‑mail stating: “ To make things simple, let’s get the quotation for Nutanix HW only and everything else becomes optional, e.g. ESX license, Veeam license, migration services etc. Also, please use the following updated spec for your new RFP HW requirement. Let’s catch up around 5 pm today to discuss further. Thanks.” The e‑mail further set out the technical specifications for the Nutanix server equipment, which were slightly different from those in the first tender. Since Lok was in a meeting, it is not clear whether he read the e‑mail at that time. (6) At 17:08 Chan texted Lok asking him to give him a call when he was free. At 17:15 Lok texted back saying he was still in a meeting and would call him once it finished. (7) At 18:18, Lok called Chan and they spoke for about 14 minutes. (8) At 18:56, Chan texted Hung, stating: “ Hi Thomas, please don’t forget to send me the list of vendors

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V today with contacts so I can give to ywca. tks!”, to which Hung replied at 19:01: “ Yep and will get you back after review and discuss with partner.” (9) At 19:25, Lok sent Mak and Wong the revised “scope of work”, including technical specifications based on what Chan had provided him at 16:22. Only the Nutanix server system would be mandatory and all the other items called for in the first tender would become optional. Lok went further and decided that the Nutanix server system for the Kowloon Centre would also become optional so that only the Headquarters system would be mandatory. (10) At 20:42, Chan sent an e‑mail to Lok stating that the number of cores that BT could provide without any change in the price was now ten cores (v4) instead of eight as stated in the specifications he had provided in the afternoon. (11) At 23:55 and 23:57, Chan sent the following messages to Percy Ng (who was on leave): “ For your information, we are the only one responded to the ywca nutanix rfp. They will re‑issue the rfp to just provide the server hw only and everything else become optional.” “ i’d asked Thomas to provide dummy bids from 4 of his partners…” 118. On 6 July, at 08:45, Lok e‑mailed the revised specifications (with the number of cores revised to 10) to Mak and Wong. 119. On 6 July, after being chased by Chan for the “vendor list”, Hung provided Chan with the names of four companies and the e‑mail addresses of the individuals: Shek (SiS), Cheung (Innovix), Mike Lam (iCON) and Steve

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V Ng (Tech‑21). These were understood by Chan to be the friends who would submit bids in the second tender. Chan immediately cut and pasted these names and addresses into an e‑mail to Lok and Li, stating: “Here is the vendor list”. 120. Lok in turn incorporated these names into the proposed vendors list he was preparing, which he sent to the APD by e‑mail on 7 July (containing eleven companies including BT, SiS, Innovix, Tech-21, iCON and 6 others, namely, Afina Data Systems Ltd, Automated System Ltd, Expert Systems Ltd, Microware Ltd, PCCW Ltd and Senco-Masslink Technology Ltd). Mak and Wong revised the list by removing four companies and adding two others. SiS, Innovix, Tech‑21 and iCON remained on the list. (Wong had also earlier, on 6 July, telephoned SiS and spoken to Priscilla Szeto: see §297 below.) 121. In the evening of 7 July, upon enquiry by Chan, Lok texted him that the second tender would be issued the next morning. 122. On 8 July, at 8:38am, Hung sent an internal e‑mail to his colleagues within Nutanix, referring to, inter alia, the YWCA project and stating: “ Last Tender fail, because only one partner response. Customer request 5 response on the tender. Nutanix assist to ask 4 NX partner for the re‑issue tender in coming two weeks to make sure Dell win the deal.” 123. On 8 July, after Lok had endorsed the revised drafts of the tender documents, the APD sent the Invitation to Tender and the tender documents to the nine companies in the list, namely:

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The invitation letter and e‑mail of 8 July 2016 enclosing the tender documents stated: “ To be acceptable as a tender, Technical Proposal (i.e. the content of Part D of Form of Tender and Supplier Profile Form), Fee Proposal (i.e. Form of Tender, Schedule of Rates and Compliance List) must be fully completed and furnished in duplicate. … The tender should be deposited in the tender box outside Room 405, 4/F, HKYWCA HQs, No. 1 MacDonnell Road, Hong Kong on or before 12:00 noon on 18 July 2016 (Closing date for the tender).” 125. The second tender therefore required tenderers to complete and submit four forms: (1) a Form of Tender; (2) a Schedule of Rates; (3) a Compliance List; and (4) a Supplier Profile Form and, in addition, to submit a Technical Proposal as required by Part D of the Form of Tender. 126. For the second tender, YWCA included a letter with the title “Request for Support from Principal” which stated, inter alia, that YWCA had

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V not authorised any IT company to be its “exclusive order fulfilment partner”, that YWCA respected the existing mechanism of the IT industry, particularly the business collaboration arrangements between manufacturers and their tiers of intermediary agents, and had no intention to interfere with their commercial decisions or collaboration relationship, and that YWCA needed “a fair-game tender exercise”. 127. On 8 July, at 12:03, Mike Lam of iCON, having received YWCA’s Invitation to Tender, emailed Hung: “ Boss Pls Help To Send Me Doc To Submit La.” 128. Shortly afterwards, at 14:39, Hung sent an e‑mail to Chan, forwarding Mike Lam’s e‑mail, adding: “ Hi Denis, Too many documents, send me one sample of what you will submit.” 129. Chan then telephoned and spoke to Lok that afternoon. 130. By e‑mail dated 10 July with the subject “Pricing template”, Chan responded to Hung’s request and sent him copies of BT’s completed Schedule of Rates with BT’s bid prices filled in and Compliance List, stating: “ Hi Thomas, Attached is the template I prepared for your friends to fill in. In particular, the one highlighted in Yellow. All others are optional and no need to fill in if they don’t want to. Also, I have attached our compliance list for your reference as well. Any queries please don’t hesitate to give me a call. Thanks a lot for your help!” 131. On 11 July, Chan sent another e‑mail to Hung, attaching BT’s

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V completed Schedule of Rates again with minor corrections, in both “excel” and “pdf” formats, stating: “ Hi Thomas, I found some minor mistake in my previous template and has corrected it. Also, I found that the excel file’s format might be different with different version of excel, I have print out a pdf version of what it should look like. If your friends run into any problem, I can help to pdf them if they can provide me with the figure. And don’t forget to markup at least 30% on top of mine. Also, there is another important doc that need to be filled in which is the ‘Form of Tender’, please ask your friends to fill in their info with the price. Thanks!” 132. On 12 July, Chan texted Hung saying: “Bro, lets spend an hour or so tomorrow to go thru this. I’m ok at 9:30 if you want to meet at my office …”. 133. On 13 July, Hung went to see Chan at BT’s office at 12:44pm to discuss what documents had to be submitted and how they should be filled out such that there would be five different tenderers responding. At 1:19pm, Chan sent Hung a further e‑mail headed “YWCA RFP submission” stating: “ Hi Thomas, To make life easy for your friends, here is what you need to submit in hardcopy by next Monday.” The body of the e‑mail set out a table of contents of BT’s Technical Proposal. The following documents were attached: (i) Form of Tender (filled in); (ii) Schedule of Rates (filled in); (iii) Compliance List (filled in); (iv) Supplier Profile Form (blank); (v) Dell XC Web‑scale Converged Appliances specifications sheet; and (vi) BT Supplement for Terms and Conditions of Contract.

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V 134. On around 14 July, Chan called Lok to ask for his advice on how the Compliance List should be completed (such as which items should be marked as compliant or non‑compliant). 135. Chan was going on holiday on 16 July. On 15 July, Friday, he submitted BT’s bid to YWCA. He texted Hung a photograph of the invitation to tender with the address and deadline circled in red. Later that day, at 19:14, Chan emailed Hung two Compliance Lists for SiS and Innovix respectively, which he had completed. The e‑mail stated: “ Hi Thomas, Here are two lists for your friends. Basically they are the same with some wording changes. I’ve put ‘Yes’ for most of them with a remark to state that this will require further discussions. This should provide indemnity against any legal responsibilities because you already stated that you did not commit. Those that are really obvious like ‘location’, I just put YES. If this is not Yes, then this will be very suspicious! I think for your other vendor friends, you can use similar approach. Thanks a lot!” 136. Shortly after sending this e‑mail, Chan also left audio messages for Hung, saying: “ Hey Thomas, just sent you two documents which are basically similar but some of the wordings are different. I put “Yes” on many sections, I’ve also reviewed the “T&C” and there is nothing much there. In case you have some worries so I put “subject to further discussion” which means you would not commit, that is, as expressly indicated, even you said “Yes” on these sections, it still requires discussion before it turns into something legal. So, I think you can refer to this for other vendors. If you put “No” on these sections, there are many sections which obviously cannot be “No”, which implied that you’ve no intention to submit the tender. For example, if you put “No” on the clause of delivery address that meant you’ve no intention to make delivery which I felt quite strange. So, if you see I have put “Yes” on some sections without any remark

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V that meant those sections must need to put “Yes”.”21 and a little later: “ Anyway, you can WhatsApp me if there is anything you want to clarify. Hope that you can submit before 12 on Monday otherwise all effort will be in vain.”22 137. On the same day at 23:34, Chan sent a “handover” e‑mail to Percy Ng who was coming back from leave, in which he reminded Percy Ng in red ink: “ By the way, YWCA Nutanix RFP is due on Monday before 12. Please check with Thomas to make sure that he will deliver all 4 folders before then! Otherwise all our effort will go to waste…” (8) Submission of bids in the second tender 138. Over the weekend and on Monday 18 July, Hung liaised with his friends with a view to their submitting bids in the second tender. The dealings

21 In Chinese original:

「喂Thomas,啱啱send 咗兩份欸document 畀你。佢哋基本上差唔多嘅,但啲wording 唔同 嘅啫。嗱,我就擺咗欸yes for都……即係都幾多嘅section嘅,但我睇過嗰啲T&C 呢其實嗰啲真係無 咩嘢嘅。

欸……欸如果即係我怕你驚呢,咁我都擺咗一個啲wording 呢就話係subject to further discussion嘅。咁呢個已經係……即係你欸唔會Commit 嘅啦,即係已經講咗明,even你話yes 呢,都 係要傾咗先至係變成一啲即係Legal 嘢嘅呢。所以我覺得你可以仿傚呢個……呢個做法,even for 你 嗰其他嗰幾個vendor 嘅。因為呢如果唔係呢你全部話no 呢。有好多呢即係好多呢好obvious 係無可 能no 嘅。如果你答no 呢即係基本上唔會報嘅。即係好似譬如你話連「跌」個delivery address 都話 no 嘅,咁你即係唔deliver,即係我覺得有少少好怪囉。

嚇,總之呢你見到呢,如果我有啲淨係寫咗yes,欸但係就無remark 嗰啲呢,嗰啲尤其是嗰 啲呢一定要寫yes 嘅呀。」 22 In Chinese original:「嗱,anyway 你如果你有咩嘢你……你想欸再Clarify 嘅呢,你可以 WhatsApp 我……哦咁欸……咁欸希望你禮拜一欸十二點鐘之前又即係遞呀……遞過去交交啦…如果唔係 就……就即係所有effort 都白費㗎喇。」

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V with them are set out separately below and further elaborated in sections F, G and H. 139. By 18 July 2016, Hung had prepared and largely filled in the tender documents for the four firms: SiS, Innovix, Tech‑21 and iCON. The key financial information of BT’s bid and each of the bids of SiS, Innovix, Tech‑21 and iCON as prepared by Hung may be seen from the following table:

BT SiS Innovix Tech-21 iCON Equipment Dell- Nutanix Nutanix- NX Dell- Nutanix Nutanix- NX Nutanix- NX Item 2.1 (Bid price of server for Headquarters — 3 nodes) $[●] $[●] $[●] $[●] $[●] % higher than BT

(for Item 2.1)

  1. 6%
  2. 6%
  3. 7%
  4. 7%

Annual maintenance for each of 4th and 5th years (optional) $[●] $[●] $[●] $[●] $[●] Item 3.1 (Bid price of server for Kowloon Centre — 3 nodes) (optional)

$[●]

Contingency sum $[●] $[●] $[●] $[●] $[●] Total (without optionals) $[●] $[●] $[●] $[●] $[●]

Hung had a very hectic morning on 18 July 2016. As described below, he e‑mailed to his friends the documents he had prepared and went successively to Innovix (Quarry Bay), SiS (Chai Wan), Tech‑21 (Kwun Tong) and YWCA (Mid‑levels) for the purposes of completing, collecting and submitting the tender documents.

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V (a) Innovix 141. On or around 14 July 2016, Hung and Siu (a Product Manager of Innovix) had a telephone conversation. Siu said that he had received a tender invitation from YWCA and Hung said that he would “handle it”. 142. On 15 July, Cheung forwarded to Siu the reminder email from YWCA (Wong) that mentioned the Monday deadline and requested for a tender. 143. On 18 July, at 07:56, Hung texted Cheung (an Assistant Product Manager of Innovix): “ Need your help on YWCA tender response, deadline today. I prepared the document and some need you to print and sign. V which will send you later. May I collect today before 11:00am? Will call you 10:00.” 144. At 08:34, Cheung replied: “For YWCA please kindly call Tommy, he is handling the tender”. Immediately, at 08:35, Hung sent the same message as above to Siu, to which Siu replied at 09:02: “Ok”. 145. At 09:16, Hung sent an e‑mail to Siu (cc Cheung) with the title “YWCA: Tender Deadlien [sic] today”, attaching the Form of Tender, Schedule of Rates and Compliance List already filled in, and stating: “ Hi Tommy, Can you please print out 2 copy each document with Sign and Chop. We help BT to bid for Dell deal. I will help to collect and pass submit today before 12:00pm. Thanks.”

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V 146. At 09:59, Hung sent a further e‑mail to Siu (cc Cheung), attaching the Supplier Profile Form which he had also filled in for Innovix. The e‑mail stated: “ One more document need. Please help.” 147. Hung then went about getting the documents signed and submitted. His first stop was Innovix. Shortly after 10:00, Hung arrived at Innovix’s office in Quarry Bay and met with Siu to finalise the bid documents. Siu signed the tender documents, except the Supplier Profile Form which was signed by Cheung. 148. Hung put the documents into a brown envelope he had prepared in advance, sealed it, and took it away with him. Siu did not keep a copy of the signed tender documents. (b) SiS 149. On 17 July 2016 (Sunday), Hung telephoned Shek (a Product Manager of SiS) and said that, as there were insufficient tenders for the YWCA deal, he wanted Shek to help submit a bid. Shek responded “Orr”, indicating his understanding. Hung did not tell Shek which other companies would submit bids. Shek’s oral evidence that it was a text message instead of a conversation must have been mistaken because there was no record of such written message. 150. On 18 July 2016, at 07:56, Hung sent a WhatsApp message to Shek, stating: “ Need your help on YWCA tender response, deadline today. I prepared the document and some need you to print and sign. V which will send you later. May I collect today before 11:00am?

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V Will call you 10:00.” 151. At 08:26, Shek replied “Ok”. 152. At 09:29, Hung e‑mailed Shek the tender documents he had drafted for SiS, including the Form of Tender, Schedule of Rates and Compliance List. The e‑mail stated: “ Hi Keith, Can you print two copies with sign and chop on the attachment.” 153. At 11:03, Hung sent to Shek by WhatsApp an image of the invitation to tender with the address for submission circled in red. Shek replied: “ wrte on the evelope? i havent got your other email only 3 document on hand.” 154. At 11:10, Hung sent another e‑mail to Shek, attaching a Supplier Profile Form: “ Last copy for print and sign. Need your contact information.” 155. At some time after 11:11, Hung arrived at SiS’s office in Chai Wan to finalise the documents with Shek. Hung told Shek where to sign and fill in the information required and Shek did so without making any changes to the information set out by Hung. Shek signed the documents, and also caused SiS’s company chop to be stamped on them.23

23 The circumstances in which SiS’s chop was applied to the documents are dealt with in §§305-309 below.

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V 156. Hung put the SiS bid documents into an envelope addressed to YWCA which Hung had brought with him. He then gave Shek that envelope and another sealed envelope also addressed to YWCA (which, I infer, contained Innovix’s bid) and told him to take a taxi to deliver them to YWCA, because Hung had to go to another company in Kwun Tong to handle that company’s bid documents. I infer that they parted before 11:24 because at that time Hung texted Shek “Take receipt and I pay you back” and then “Thanks and sorry for the sudden request”. 157. Shek boarded a taxi at 11:29 and alighted at 11:44. He submitted the bids to YWCA and at 11:49 told Hung he had done it. (c) Tech‑21 158. On 6 July 2016, Hung texted Steve Ng: “ May I have your help on one pig pig quotation. YWCA or YMCA I call you now?” 159. This was followed by a telephone conversation between them. 160. On 18 July 2016, at 07:56, Hung sent Steve Ng the same WhatsApp message he was sending at the same time to Shek and Cheung, stating: “ Need your help on YWCA tender response, deadline today. I prepared the document and some need you to print and sign. V which will send you later. May I collect today before 11:00am? Will call you 10:00am.” 161. At 08:14, Steve Ng replied: “ Send to me by 10 o’clock, ok?

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V I have a meeting with a client at 10 o’clock.” 162. After that, Hung and Steve Ng had a telephone conversation at 09:18. 163. At 09:20, Steve Ng sent an audio message to Hung: “ Does it require company stamp? I don’t know, it should require having company stamp for normal case. I’ll need to see and think as to what to do for you.”24 164. Meanwhile, at 10:23, Ivan Lau (a director of Tech‑21) replied to Wong’s reminder of 15 July and stated that Tech‑21 was not able to supply the required product in the tender. However, at 10:38, Ivan Lau e‑mailed Wong to apologise for the confusion and stated that Tech‑21 would be submitting a bid after all. 165. At 10:38, Hung e‑mailed the bid documents that he had drafted for Tech‑21 to Steve Ng (without the Compliance List). Steve Ng printed them off, signed and stamped them with Tech‑21’s company chop, without making any alteration to the documents. At 11:07 Steve Ng sent Hung by WhatsApp a photograph of the sealed envelope, followed by a message “Finished”, and a little later texted him an address in Kwun Tong. After leaving SiS, Hung went to Kwun Tong to collect the envelope from Steve Ng and then went to YWCA to submit it, arriving late at 12:15.

24 In Chinese original: 「喂要唔要扱公司印㗎?個簽名……我唔知呀,正常應該要揼公司印㗎 喎,我要睇嚇諗諗同你點樣搞呀。」

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V (d) iCON 166. Hung also sent an e‑mail to Mike Lam of iCON at 09:26 on 18 July, attaching a Form of Tender and Schedule of Rates he had largely filled in for iCON and stating: “ Hi Mike, Only two doc. Need your assist for sign and chop submission. Call you around 10:00am.” 167. Hung did not go to iCON’s office that morning and, as it turned out, iCON did not submit a bid to YWCA. (9) The aftermath 168. In the evening of 18 July 2016, Hung sent Chan a message that he had submitted three tenders from SiS, Innovix and Tech‑21 and that iCON had told him they would do it themselves (although iCON did not in fact submit a bid in YWCA’s second tender). Chan replied: “Great. Thanks a lot!” 169. After YWCA opened the tender on 18 July 2016, it was found that bids from four invitees had been received, namely, BT, SiS, Innovix and Tech‑21. Wong noticed that there were certain similarities between the tender submissions of these four companies. On Mak’s instruction, he compiled a table detailing these similarities. 170. On 21 July, Mak made a complaint on behalf of YWCA to the Commission about suspected bid‑rigging by the four companies. The complaint was kept confidential among a few senior people within YWCA.

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V The ISD was not informed. Mak told Lok there was a problem with the second tender because most tenderers did not put in a price for the optional items including the Nutanix server system for the Kowloon Centre. In response, on 26 July, Lok emailed Mak asking that the APD simply compare the tenderers’ prices of the mandatory items only and speed up the tender evaluation process, as there was urgency in installing the CRM and other new applications on the Nutanix platform. 171. Subsequently YWCA decided to hold a third tender for the supply of the Nutanix system. On 3 August, upon Percy Ng’s enquiry, Lok told him that it was likely YWCA would issue a third tender because not every return bid had submitted the answers YWCA required in the second tender, and asked for his opinion. Percy Ng told Lok that the easiest thing would be to ask those who had replied to provide the price of optional Nutanix equipment and nothing else, adding: “Then, we can help to ensure that a prompt response can happen timely.” 172. On 4 August, Percy Ng texted Lok: “ Alan, the Nutanix manager helping us on the tender will be away to US for next week. Please see if the clarifications can be out by tomorrow or not.” 173. On 4 August, Mak called Percy Ng and told him YWCA’s intention was to issue a third tender. (10) The third tender 174. On 28 July 2016, for the purposes of the third tender, Mak asked Erica Chan of Nutanix for a list of local dealers in Hong Kong to conduct a

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V tender exercise. On 29 July, Erica Chan replied to Mak (copied to Hung) with the contact details of BT, SiS, Innovix, Tech‑21 and Expert Systems Ltd. 175. On 2 August, Mak wrote again to Erica Chan saying it did not need to be the Dell‑Nutanix server and that the Lenovo‑Nutanix and Nutanix- NX server were also acceptable. He asked for a supplementary list of Nutanix’s authorised sellers or partners instead of the five names supplied on 29 July. 176. Meanwhile, Lok had revised the technical specifications for the third tender and asked the APD to put out the tender as soon as possible. In an effort to attract a greater number of bids, the scope of the third tender was narrowed down. Certain software elements included as optional items in the second tender were removed. 177. On 8 August, Erica Chan sent Mak a list of 41 firms. The APD selected a total of 17 firms to which an invitation to bid in the third tender was sent on 9 August. They included BT, SiS, Innovix and Tech‑21, as YWCA did not wish to alert them to the fact that YWCA suspected they had attempted bid‑rigging in the second tender, though YWCA would not consider any bids received from them. 178. On 9 August, the Commission executed a search warrant in SiS’s office. 179. Upon the closing date of 23 August, it was found that only one firm (IT Channel (Asia) Limited) had submitted a bid. The type of equipment offered was the Nutanix-NX solution at $[●] or $[●] per node ($[●] or $[●]

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V for three nodes) which was substantially higher than BT’s bid with the Dell- Nutanix solution in the second tender. 180. YWCA decided not to award the third tender or conduct a further tender exercise. Instead, with authorisation of the FAC, YWCA approached Dell directly to arrange the acquisition of the Dell‑Nutanix solution. Eventually, on about 16 November 2016, YWCA acquired three units of the Dell‑Nutanix solution for the Headquarters through a Dell re‑seller, CriticMission Data Limited, at $[●] per node ($[●] for three nodes). A month later, YWCA purchased another three nodes of Dell-Nutanix solution at a similar price for the Kowloon Centre. There were only minor differences between the technical specifications for the second tender and the eventual purchases. The ultimate purchases included a slightly different version of the processor (with no material difference), seven additional TBs of HDD capacity, and five instead of three years of maintenance support.

E. AGREEMENT BETWEEN NUTANIX AND BT 181. This section deals with the agreement Nutanix came to with BT. The next three sections will deal with the equivalent question with regard to SiS, Innovix and Tech‑21 respectively. 182. The Commission contends that there was an arrangement between Nutanix and BT whereby they agreed to distort the competitive process of the second tender by seeking to obtain a number of bids that were

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V not independently arrived at just to make up the numbers; BT provided commercially confidential information to Nutanix in order to assist; both the objective purpose and subjective intention of the arrangement were to procure four dummy bids (i.e. non-genuine bids) so as to assist BT in winning the second tender. (1) The communications 183. The principal facts have been set out in Section D(7) above. 184. The first tender failed because there was only one bid, by BT. On 5 July 2016, Chan learnt the result of the first tender and the reason. He was also asked by Lok to provide names of suppliers for the purposes of a second tender. Chan spoke with Hung and they agreed Hung would obtain bids from certain friends. Chan then followed up within an hour with an e‑mail to Hung that set out BT’s proposed bid prices for the server and for the 4th and 5th years’ maintenance, adding that once he finished the whole table, he would share it with Hung so that he could “give the quotation to [his friends] to just fill in”. At the end of that day, Chan texted Percy Ng that he (Chan) had asked Hung “to provide dummy bids from 4 of his partners”. 185. After the invitation to tender was issued on 8 July 2016, Hung asked Chan for a “sample” of what BT would submit, and in the next few days Chan sent him BT’s completed Schedule of Rates. Chan also offered to help prepare the documents for Hung’s friends if they could provide him with “the figure”, adding “don’t forget to markup at least 30% on top of mine”. On 13 July he provided Hung with a complete set of documents in order to “make life easy for [his] friends”.

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V 186. On 15 July, Friday, the day before he went on leave, Chan sent Hung two Compliance Lists for SiS and Innovix respectively which Chan had completed in such a way that the documents would not look “suspicious”. He told Hung to use the same approach for his other two friends. At the end of that day he reminded Hung to submit the bids before noon on Monday (18 July) or else “all effort will be in vain”. 187. Hung prepared the bids for SiS, Innovix and Tech-21 including the bid prices, procured them to be signed by Shek, Siu/Cheung and Steve Ng respectively and submitted them to YWCA on 18 July 2016. Hung reported to Chan that he had submitted three tenders from SiS, Innovix and Tech‑21 and that iCON had told him they would submit it themselves. (2) Absence of Hung as witness 188. Before discussing the evidence it is convenient at this point to deal with two evidential points. The first arises from the absence of Hung at the trial; the second is related to Chan’s status as a witness called by the Commission. 189. Hung was at all material times and up to around July 2017 an employee of Nutanix. Eventually he did not give evidence at the trial of this matter. It was accepted by the Commission that as a result, no weight should be attached to his interview records at all. Some of the respondents have, however, further submitted that (i) adverse inferences should be drawn against the Commission from its failure to call Hung; and (ii) any doubt arising from the absence of Hung should be resolved in favour of the respondents. To assess this submission, it is necessary to outline the relevant procedural steps.

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V 190. Hung was interviewed by the Commission pursuant to s 42 of the Ordinance on 21‑22 February 2017, accompanied by two solicitors from Latham & Watkins who have also been acting for Nutanix throughout these proceedings. The Commission’s Originating Notice of Application made references to certain statements made by Hung in the interview. There was subsequently a dispute as to whether the record of Hung’s interview was inadmissible against Nutanix in these proceedings by virtue of the prohibition against direct use in s 45(2). This Tribunal ruled that s 45(2) rendered Hung’s statements inadmissible against himself as the person compelled to answer questions but not inadmissible against his employer Nutanix: see the Tribunal’s decision dated 3 October 2017. 191. At an earlier stage of these proceedings there was some uncertainty as to whether and how the records of interview of various persons might be adduced as evidence. Upon the insistence of the respondents, the Commission indicated it was prepared to call Hung and applied for a witness summons for that purpose in December 2017, but as Hung did not provide a statement, the Commission applied by summons in April 2018 to adduce evidence from him without a statement. That application was not opposed by the respondents except SiS, who submitted, presciently, that it would be an “exercise in futility” because Hung would claim privilege and refuse to answer any questions at all. It was only in May 2018 that the Commission came to agreement in principle with Hung that he would provide a statement and give evidence at the trial in return for the Commission’s undertaking not to bring any proceedings against him under the Ordinance in connection with YWCA’s tender. 192. On 1 June 2018, the Commission’s lawyers provided a draft witness statement to Hung’s then lawyers (Sidley Austin), who reverted with

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V comments on 4 June in the form of extensive deletions from and additions to the draft. The Commission responded on 6 June stating that it “does not consider that the revised draft fully and truly reflects the answers provided in [Hung’s] two interviews with the Commission on 21 and 22 February 2017”. It was therefore not prepared to grant him immunity. The Commission declined Hung’s lawyers’ request to identify which of his comments were considered unacceptable, stating that its position was “self‑evident” from the draft it prepared. The Commission indicated that it would instead call Hung as a witness and examine him at trial without reliance upon a signed statement from him, whereupon Sidney Austin gave notice by a letter dated 15 June that Hung intended, when called upon to testify, “to invoke his claim for privilege against self‑incrimination as regards any questions directed at his involvement in the invitations to tender issued by YWCA in 2016”. 193. In the light of that indication, on the first day of the trial the Commission decided not to call Hung to testify, accepting that as a consequence no weight should be attached to his interview records at all. None of the respondents took up the opportunity offered to call or require Hung to be tendered for cross‑examination. Nor did the Tribunal propose to call Hung of its own motion. As a consequence Hung did not appear at trial to testify. 194. In these circumstances it would not, in my opinion, be justified to draw any adverse inference against the Commission from the decision not to call Hung as a witness. Granted that the Commission is a public body, not a private litigant, it was nevertheless not bound to put forward any statement that Hung had prepared if it believed that it did not properly reflect the information provided in his earlier interviews with the Commission. The Commission intended to call Hung without adopting his statement but, in light

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V of the intimation that he would claim privilege in relation to any questions about his involvement in the tender, the Commission was entitled ultimately to take the view that calling him would not be a useful exercise. Furthermore, the Commission’s position was subject to the caveat that if any of the respondents wished to question Hung, he should attend the trial. 195. While Hung was a central player in the events in question, I do not consider that his absence from the trial precludes the Tribunal altogether from drawing inferences, one way or another, in relation to matters of which he has knowledge. It seems to me the Tribunal should simply assess and evaluate the available evidence as a whole, drawing inferences from primary facts where it is appropriate to do so, but without taking account of Hung’s interview records. (3) Whether the Commission may impugn Chan’s evidence 196. Chan was at all material times and up to the time of trial an employee of BT. He had been on garden leave since the Commission’s investigation of BT began. 197. He was interviewed (in English) by the Commission under s 42 of the Ordinance on 25 January 2017 accompanied by a partner of Baker & McKenzie as BT’s external lawyer. He gave the Commission a signed witness statement (in English) dated 7 December 2017. There were certain passages in earlier drafts prepared by the Commission which he asked to remove. He was still in the employ of BT though he was not called by BT, but by the Commission, to give evidence at trial.

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V 198. Arguments were raised in closing submissions as to whether it was open to the Commission to advocate for a version of the facts which, according to the respondents, was contradicted by Chan’s evidence in chief or in re‑examination. I shall come to the specific points in issue further below but I set out here the principles by which I propose to be guided. 199. The legal position, so far as relevant, seems to me to this. There is nothing to prevent a party in the position of the Commission from calling a witness whose evidence is regarded as in part worthy of belief and reliable but not wholly reliable. A party, however, cannot (without obtaining leave to treat the witness as hostile) seek to discredit his witness, i.e. contend that evidence given in chief by a witness he has called is untruthful, though he may suggest, by calling contrary evidence or by inviting an inference, that such evidence, albeit honestly given, is mistaken, unreliable or an innocent exaggeration, provided that care is taken to avoid surprise and hence injustice to the other parties. Ultimately, the Tribunal is not bound to accept the evidence of any witness in full. There is nothing to prevent the Tribunal, upon evaluation, from accepting parts of a witness’s evidence and rejecting other parts, or placing different weight on different aspects of his evidence: The Filiatra Legacy [1991] 2 Ll R 337, §§361‑362; Secretary for Justice v Tang Sau Ling [2013] 2 HKLRD 174, §§36‑40; China Shanshui Cement Group Ltd & Others v Zhang Caikui & Anor [2018] HKCFI 444, §87. (4) Discussion 200. It is not in dispute that there was an agreement between Hung and Chan. As to what that agreement was, the principal source of evidence is Chan and the contemporaneous documents.

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V 201. Chan gave evidence both in his witness statement and in his answers during his interview by the Commission which he confirmed in evidence to be true unless corrected by his statement. In his witness statement (§27), Chan said: “ On the same day [i.e. 5 July 2016], I informed Thomas Hung of Nutanix (“Thomas”) that the return bid submitted by BT failed because it was the only bid submitted in response to the First Tender and that YWCA required a minimum of five tenders to be submitted. I therefore asked Thomas to help find four Nutanix partners to submit bids to make up the required minimum number of tenders. Thomas agreed to help and told me he would find a few friends who work in Nutanix’s distributors, resellers or systems integration partners to submit bids to do so. He asked me to provide him with the relevant information I had relating to the YWCA tender and to show him how to fill in the tender documents. I asked Thomas to provide me with a list with contact details of the four bidders that day. I cannot now recall whether this particular discussion took place at a meeting or over the telephone but Thomas and I had a few meetings at BT’s office and a number of telephone conversations to discuss matters relating this.” 202. It was submitted by the respondents that this paragraph of Chan’s statement (and his interview records) did not suggest there was any reference to “dummy bids” in his conversations with Hung. When his statement was being prepared, Chan declined to accept a sentence in the draft that read: “I therefore asked Thomas to help find four Nutanix partners to submit dummy bids to make sure BT wins this deal”. I note however that Chan appeared deeply embarrassed when he was testifying with regard to his communications with Hung. He had a clear motive to legitimise his actions and lessen his responsibility, apart from being still in BT’s employ. It is necessary to have regard to the totality of his evidence, the documents and intrinsic probabilities, and not just a particular passage or a specific omission in his statement in isolation.

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V 203. It is clear that Chan’s intention was that these bids from Hung’s friends would be “dummy bids”. Chan himself, in his message to Percy Ng on 5 July 2016, described his arrangement with Hung as being for “dummy bids from 4 of his partners …” (see §117 above). Chan accepted that when he sent this message to Percy Ng, he (Chan) knew that the bids that the four partners were to submit would be dummy bids.25 204. As to what Chan meant by dummy bids, he said in his statement at §31, which he re-confirmed in re-examination: “ When I referred to ‘dummy bids’, I meant that Thomas’s friends would be submitting bids as a favour to him just to make up the numbers, without any expectation of winning the bids and with the knowledge that the prospects of winning the bids would be low (although in the unlikely event that the bids had been successful, I would have expected that they would have been honoured).” 205. Chan had also explained in his interview as follows:26 “ Q: But you used ‘dummy bids’, what’s the meaning of ‘dummy bids’? A: There is a better description in Chinese, which is 陪跑bid [also‑ran bid], ok. So I don’t know how that in English, so that’s why. … Q: So from my understanding is if you say it’s 陪跑bid [also‑ran bid], then that means the chance to win the tender will be low. A: Yes, yes. Like I said, it is a natural sort of thing that I explained to you earlier. If a company don’t see any win chance, they simply would not bid, the whole reason why they bid is because they were doing a friend’s favour, that’s all there is. Q: So that’s, so that’s a dummy bid.

25 Chan’s interview record, §§1353‑1354. 26 Chan’s interview records, §§1342-1350.

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V A: Yes, yes.” 206. This is consistent with Percy Ng’s understanding of what Chan told him, namely, that Hung would help BT find four bidders who were willing to be “also rans” so that sufficient bids would be received by YWCA to fulfil the requirement of the tender. Percy Ng’s evidence in this regard was not challenged in cross‑examination. 207. Terms such as “low” prospects and “unlikely” event of winning involve questions of degree. As explained in his interview, Chan’s expectation was that the dummy bids were so unlikely to win that the bidders would not even want to “waste the taxi fare to physically go and submit” the bids and that instead Hung would collect the tenders and submit them to YWCA.27 It is to be noted that in fact, Hung offered to repay Shek his taxi fare for going to YWCA and that Hung delivered Tech-21’s bid to YWCA. 208. Chan’s understanding with Hung can further be seen from what he went on to do with Hung. Immediately after their conversation on 5 July 2016, by email at 16:14 Chan informed Hung of BT’s bid prices and also that BT would be tendering the Dell-Nutanix solution, and said he would share with Hung the whole table when finished so that he could “give the quotation to [his] friend to just fill in”. This can be contrasted with the email he sent Lok shortly afterwards at 16:22 in which he took care to set out only the technical specifications of the Nutanix node, and nothing on price. If Chan had wanted to send Hung only the specifications, he could have done it in the same way. By e‑mails dated 10 July and 11 July (see §§130-131 above), Chan sent Hung copies of BT’s completed Schedule of Rates (among other

27 Chan’s interview record, §§1669‑1680.

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V things), again with the actual prices that BT intended to submit to YWCA, saying it was the template he had prepared for Hung’s friends to fill in. 209. BT’s bid prices included not only the cost of the Nutanix software but also the cost of the Dell hardware and BT’s own mark-up margin on both components. Thus Chan was quite willing and indeed anticipated that the content and prices of his bid would be shown to the friends. As Chan accepted in his evidence, it would not be necessary for him to reveal BT’s prices if the agreement was simply to find four companies which would formulate and make their own bids. Nor was it necessary for him to send BT’s prices to Hung for any legitimate purposes between BT and Nutanix unrelated to friends’ bids. 210. Then there was also Chan’s e‑mail of 11 July to Hung (see §131 above), where Chan stated: “ If your friends run into any problem, I can help to pdf them if they can provide me with the figure. And don’t forget to markup at least 30% on top of mine.” In his evidence, Chan confirmed that the “figure” was the bid price that the friends would be submitting to YWCA. In the context of this e‑mail and the documents attached (in particular the Schedule of Rates filled in by BT), what was written was, on an objective and natural reading, clearly a request to ensure that Hung’s friends would tender prices that were at least 30% higher than BT’s bid prices. The documents attached to the e‑mail did not set out BT’s cost, but did set out the prices that BT was going to tender to YWCA. 211. In his interview and in his statement, however, Chan said that he made a mistake in the language and that what he really meant was to remind

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V Hung to mark up the prices that Nutanix would charge his friends by at least 30% over BT’s cost. 212. The respondents submitted that the Commission cannot disown or contradict the contents of Chan’s witness statements. Three points may be made here. First, I accept that on such a matter as what Chan meant by the words he used, it is difficult for the Commission to invite the Tribunal to reject the evidence on the ground that Chan’s memory was not reliable or that his evidence was mistaken. In submitting that Chan’s suggestion is “not credible”28 the Commission came close to saying Chan was untruthful on this point, which was not permissible. Further, no prior notice was given that the Commission intended to submit that Chan’s evidence on this point should be rejected as incredible. For these reasons, while I have grave doubt on the veracity of the explanation offered by Chan (who was very good at English), I shall proceed on the basis that he did in fact subjectively mean to remind Hung to mark up the prices that Nutanix would charge his friends by at least 30% over BT’s cost. 213. Secondly, whatever the subjective thinking of Chan might be, what the request objectively conveyed to Hung was clear, namely, a request to ensure his friends’ bid prices would be at least 30% higher than BT’s. This is entirely consistent with Chan’s evidence, which claimed he made a mistake in expression. 214. Thirdly, even on the basis that Chan requested Nutanix to mark up its price to the friends by at least 30% over BT’s cost, it would nonetheless be for the purpose of ensuring that the friends’ bids would not win — by

28 Applicant’s Closing §94b.

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V making sure that their bid prices would be higher than BT’s or at least not lower than BT’s by a sufficient margin to overcome BT’s other advantages. Chan explained in his evidence that even if the friends’ bid prices were lower than BT’s, then provided they were “very close” (within 1% or 5%), he was confident BT would still win. In Chan’s words during his interview, “as long as there is a 30 per cent difference between their cost and our cost, then we should be fine, so everyone should be safe, yes, if you know what I mean”. 29 In his evidence Chan also said the request was to satisfy Dell that it was given a deep discount but he did not say, nor I do not accept, that this was the sole purpose. 215. In his interview Chan also said that the request to make sure the other bidders’ cost would be at least 30% more than BT’s came from Dell, which I do not accept. But he also said he reasoned that Dell did not know they were dummy bids because “if they know it’s a dummy bid, they don’t have to remind me of this…”. 30 This shows that Chan intended that the dummy bids were not supposed to win. 216. Of course, to ensure everyone was “safe”, from Chan’s point of view the chances of BT being accidentally defeated by a dummy bid should be as “low” and as “unlikely” as possible, although obviously the dummy bids’ prices should not be so out of the range as to arouse suspicion on the part of YWCA. In the contemporaneous communication, Chan had referred to avoiding suspicion, albeit not in relation to pricing (see his e‑mail to Hung at 19:14 on 15 July 2016 and also the audio message on the same date referred to in §§135-136 above).

29 Chan’s interview record, §1513. 30 Chan’s interview record, §1539.

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V 217. Furthermore, Chan did not only provide his own bid prices to Hung and requested the mark-up for the friends, he also helped prepare documents for the friends. In his evidence,31 Chan explained that he sent Hung a set of largely completed tender documents that BT were going to submit “to help his friends to fill in those documents”, although he wanted BT to win the tender. From Chan’s point of view, he would not have gone to such lengths to assist Hung’s friends absent an arrangement with Hung that the friends would merely be submitting bids that were intended not to win but to help BT win. In his interview Chan accepted that he “prepared all these documents for Thomas to assist him to submit some dummy bids”.32 He also said that if Hung’s friends were submitting “a genuine bid”, he would not have helped them.33 218. Chan also explained in re-examination that he did not just leave it to SiS and Innovix to complete their own tender documents because he “knew that they would not spend any time at all to read these things”. He also said in his interview that if he did not help, they would not do it properly,34 and he was worried that Hung would “just copy and paste” what Chan had given him.35 In his statement, Chan states: “I deliberately changed the wording in each of the documents for Thomas because I wanted to avoid having identical documents submitted, as that would arouse suspicion with YWCA”. Quite plainly Chan considered that SiS and Innovix would not genuinely be submitting bids to compete and believed they knew they were to submit dummy bids just to make up the numbers. Chan knew what he and Hung agreed was not acceptable and would fail to mislead YWCA if it found out.

31 Chan (Re‑X) [Day 6/19:2-10]. 32 Chan’s interview record, §§1574‑1575. 33 Chan’s interview record, §§1735‑1740. 34 Chan’s interview record, §1611. 35 Chan’s interview record, §§1577‑1585.

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V 219. In his statement, Chan said he believed that each of SiS, Innovix and Tech-21 knew that the bids submitted by them were dummy bids in the sense he had described, and he suspected that Innovix also knew that this was to help BT win the tender. Leaving aside their evidential value on the knowledge of SiS, Innovix and Tech-21, these statements are clearly evidence of Chan’s own understanding as derived from his arrangements with Hung. 220. In his audio message to Hung and e‑mail to Percy Ng on 15 July 2016, Chan emphasised the need to submit all four bids by the deadline on 18 July, otherwise all the efforts would “go to waste” and be “in vain”. In his interview Chan explained that he was concerned that if the tender was not successful, there might be a third tender, and that BT might not be able to participate as “no company can afford to do one bid three times”.36 221. For their part, Nutanix submitted that the only agreement between Hung and Chan is that, in light of YWCA’s requirement of a minimum of five bidders, Hung agreed that he would try to find four Nutanix partners who would submit bids in the second tender.37 Nutanix submitted that there is no evidence to suggest that Chan and Hung had any meeting of minds that the bids would not be genuine.38 It was said that Hung knew YWCA had selected Nutanix software and in all probability Nutanix would receive an order from a partner for its software to be supplied to YWCA, and that there was little incentive or reason for Nutanix to engage in anti- competitive conduct.

36 Chan’s interview record, §§1647-1654. 37 Nutanix Closing para 132. 38 Nutanix Closing para 134.

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V 222. Having regard to the actual evidence, I am unable to accept this submission. Nutanix was very keen to make sure that BT would win the deal. On 5 October 2015, when there was still concern whether YWCA could afford to purchase a Nutanix solution, Edward Yeung (Nutanix’s Managing Director for Hong Kong and Taiwan) stated in an e‑mail to Percy Ng (copied to Chan and Hung) headed “YWCA”: “Just tell us how we can help you win … Whatsapp me what you need and will try to help”. A few days later, Edward Yeung sent an e‑mail to Hung headed “What do you need to close YWCA”, stating: “If we must win this with BT. How?” In early February 2016, Percy Ng e‑mailed Edward Yeung and Hung that BT had just lost a deal on Nutanix solutions: “It’s a pity to all of us. Let’s get some new wins in the new year of monkey shortly”, to which Edward Yeung replied (copied to Chan and Hung and other Nutanix staff): “Thanks for your efforts and the opportunity. It is a pity. Yes we need to win YWCA”. 223. It is plain that Hung agreed with Chan to make the arrangements not only to ensure there would be at least five bidders so that the second tender would not be abortive, but also that the friends’ bids were not intended to win or would not win. In Hung’s e‑mail on 8 July 2016 (§122 above), he told his colleagues he was assisting by asking four Nutanix channel partners to take part in the second tender “to make sure Dell win the deal”. In referring to Dell, Hung meant the BT/Dell bid. Hung knew that YWCA wanted the Dell- Nutanix solution. He had specifically learnt from Percy Ng in relation to the first tender on 21 June 2016 that YWCA wanted a Dell‑Nutanix solution. The proof-of-concept equipment on loan to YWCA was Dell‑Nutanix servers. Chan had also told Hung on 5 July that BT was proposing the Dell-Nutanix solution in the second tender. Yet, of the four sets of tenders Hung prepared for his friends, three offered the Nutanix-NX solution; only Innovix’s bid offered the Dell‑Nutanix solution. As for Innovix’s bid, in his e‑mail to Siu at

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V 09:16 on 18 July 2016, Hung made clear who was to win: “We help BT to bid for Dell deal”. Hung had also, of course, with knowledge of BT’s bid, determined the bid prices of SiS, Innovix, Tech‑21 and iCON that were, for the main item (2.1), 44.6%, 16.7%, 27.7% and 27.7% higher than BT’s respectively (see the table in §139 above). Innovix’s bid also had the highest price for the 4th and 5th year’s maintenance, which was exactly 20% higher than BT’s. 224. The contents of the tender documents Hung prepared for SiS, Innovix and Tech‑21 are also telling, as will be seen below. Had they been intended by Hung to be genuine bids representing those firms’ real attempt to win business, they would not have been such botched documents, as described in sections F, G and H below. For the Compliance List, he used those prepared by Chan for SiS and Innovix. He did not prepare a Compliance List for Tech-21 at all with the result that it was missing from its bid. 225. The respondents relied on the fact that in preparing his statement with the Commission, Chan had declined to include the words “submit dummy bids to make sure BT wins this deal” or to equate “dummy bids” with “non‑genuine bids”. From the totality of the evidence, however, it is entirely clear that it is both an objective and a subjective aim of the agreement to submit bids that would not be counted but would not win, the natural consequence of which was that BT would win. Further, while it could be said that the dummy bids were real in the sense that they were capable of being accepted by YWCA and, if accepted, would become binding on the bidders, they were not genuine in the sense that they were not intended to win. 226. The respondents also submitted that bidders often enter a tender with a low expectation and low prospects of winning, that there can be no

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V suggestion there is anything anti-competitive merely because bids were submitted with a low prospect of success, and that at least in the case of Siu (Innovix), his experience in practice was that out of the many quotations he provided, only a very few would end up in purchase orders. As can be seen from the evidence, however, this is far from the facts of the present case. (5) Conclusion 227. Taking account of all the evidence, I have no doubt that Chan and Hung came to an arrangement that bids were to be submitted from Hung’s friends solely to make up the numbers to make the second tender valid. The bids were not intended or supposed to win. They were to have such a low prospect of winning that it would be safe, and they would instead enable BT to win. The fact that, in the unlikely and wholly unintended event that a dummy bid won the tender, it would be honoured, does not mean that it was intended to win or was a genuine bid in the relevant sense. 228. In my view, the evidence overwhelmingly demonstrates, and I find, that there was an agreement or concerted practice between Chan and Hung: (1) Chan and Hung both knew YWCA had a requirement of a minimum of five bids and the first tender had failed because there was only one bid, from BT. (2) For the second tender Chan and Hung agreed to procure from four friendly Nutanix channel partners (i.e. SiS, Innovix, Tech-21 and iCON) a dummy bid each. (3) Chan and Hung were of one mind that these bids were not intended to win, were to have such low chance of winning that

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V they would make sure that BT win, and were submitted solely for the purpose of making up the numbers to meet the 5-bid requirement so that the second tender would be valid and BT’s bid would win. (4) Chan provided commercially confidential information (including BT’s own bid prices) to Hung for the purpose of their agreement, and, to make sure the friends’ bids would not outbid BT, he asked Hung to ensure the friends’ bid prices (or, in Chan’s mind, their cost) were marked up by 30%. (5) With knowledge of BT’s bid including the prices, Hung prepared the friends’ bids, inserting bid prices ranging from 16.7% to 44.6% higher than BT’s. (6) Chan and Hung also agreed to use the documents filled in by Chan (i.e. the Compliance List) for two of the friends (SiS and Innovix). (7) Chan and Hung intended that YWCA would, without its suspicion being aroused, take the dummy bids as genuine and count them towards the required number. (8) As agreed, Hung procured bids from SiS, Innovix and Tech-21 which were not genuine, but failed eventually to procure a bid from iCON.

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F. AGREEMENT BETWEEN NUTANIX AND SiS 229. This section deals with the agreement between Hung and Shek. The question whether Shek’s acts are attributable to SiS is dealt with in section I below. The Commission contends that Hung and Shek made an agreement for Shek to submit a non-genuine bid just to make up the numbers in the second tender. 230. The basic circumstances in which Shek came to submit a bid in the name of SiS are not in dispute. The telephone conversation between Hung and Shek on 17 July 2016 and what they did the following day have been set out in §§149-157 above. 231. Hung prepared the tender documents to be submitted in the name of SiS, including the prices in the Schedule of Rates. The bid offered Nutanix-NX equipment, not Dell-Nutanix. The price inserted for the main item (2.1) — as determined by Hung — was 44.6% higher than BT’s. Shek knew that YWCA wanted to purchase Dell-Nutanix equipment, and that Dell had a deal registration with Nutanix. 232. Shek printed off the documents from Hung’s e‑mails on the morning of 18 July 2016 but did nothing to them on his own until Hung arrived at SiS’s office in Chai Wan shortly after 11:10. When they met, time was short. Hung told Shek where to sign and fill in the information required, and Shek did so without making any changes to the information set out by

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V Hung. Shek looked at the documents but not in any detail. The whole process took only minutes — they had already parted by 11:24. They were in real haste because there was a deadline for submission of the tender at 12:00. Shek had to go to YWCA in Mid‑Levels to deliver SiS’s bid and another bid Hung entrusted him with (which was in fact Innovix’s), while Hung had to collect Tech‑21’s bid in Kwun Tong before taking it to YWCA. Hung offered to reimburse Shek for the taxi fare. 233. Shek said that his understanding was that SiS’s bid was “just to make up the required number”39 and that he had never thought of winning the tender. This is why the details (including the bid prices) were not of concern to him. Indeed, Shek said he believed Hung had put in very high bid prices in SiS’s bid so that it would not be selected by YWCA. Hung did not tell Shek, and Shek did not know, which other companies were also submitting bids. But Shek clearly knew there was some requirement in connection with the tender that there had to be a certain minimum number of bids. 234. I bear in mind that Shek was an immunised witness and that, as such, his evidence must as a general rule be approached with caution: HKSAR v Shek Ka-kwan (CACC 438/2014; 27 January 2017). Not surprisingly, Shek’s credibility has been heavily attacked by SiS but, importantly, not with respect to his evidence of what he had agreed to do with Hung. In SiS’s submission, the common theme around the matters on which Shek had been untruthful is that they either seek to tie SiS to his own wrongdoing, or else to minimise his own role in it.40

39 In his Chinese statement:「只是為了湊夠數」。 40 SiS Closing §134.

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V 235. Shek’s evidence on what Hung told him and asked of him on 17 and 18 July 2016, and his evidence on purpose of SiS’s bid and that he never intended or believed SiS’s bid would win, seems to me to be entirely consistent with the other facts. No one challenged Shek in cross‑examination with respect to that evidence. Indeed, in its pleaded case SiS relied on Shek’s evidence in that regard in order to explain why he concealed his actions from SiS.41 I accept that evidence. 236. Furthermore, as SiS pointed out, the tender documents Hung prepared for SiS were replete with errors: for example, the business registration filled in had an expired validity date; the technical proposal misstated SiS’s name as “SiS Distributor Limited” rather than “SiS International Limited”; the Supplier Profile Form stated SiS’s work schedule to be 30 days per month and 24 hours per day. This fortifies Shek’s evidence on the nature of the bid Hung told him to sign and submit. 237. On the evidence, I find that: (1) Pursuant to his agreement with Chan, Hung needed to procure Shek to submit a dummy bid in the name of SiS. (2) Shek knew that a certain minimum number of bids were required in the YWCA tender. (3) At Hung’s request, there was an agreement between Hung and Shek that Shek would submit a bid in SiS’s name to YWCA just to make up the numbers but not genuinely to compete in the tender. Neither of them had any intention or expectation that SiS’s bid would win.

41 SiS Closing §121.

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V (4) As they both knew, SiS’s bid documents, and in particular the bid prices, had been provided by Hung. They were not prepared by or in consultation with Shek or anyone else in SiS. (5) Hung knew BT’s bid prices and that YWCA preferred the Dell- Nutanix solution. He had prepared SiS’s bid in such a way that it would offer the Nutanix-NX solution and at a price 44.6% higher than BT’s bid. (6) Shek did not know BT’s bid prices or indeed that BT was bidding, but he knew SiS’s bid was not intended to win – it was submitted solely to help ensure the tender was valid and that someone else would win. (7) Both Hung and Shek intended that YWCA would treat SiS’s bid as a genuine bid and count it towards the required number.

G. AGREEMENT BETWEEN NUTANIX, BT AND INNOVIX 238. This section deals with the agreement involving Innovix. The basic facts concerning Innovix’s bid in the second tender are not in dispute and have been set out in section D(8)(a) above (§§141-148). The Commission contends that there was an agreement or concerted practice among Nutanix, BT and Innovix for Innovix to submit a non-genuine bid to YWCA to help BT win the tender. 239. Innovix raised an objection that it was not open to the Commission to advance a case of concerted practice because “concerted

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V practice” was not mentioned in the Originating Notice of Application. I reject this objection. While the Originating Notice of Application referred to an “arrangement” between Nutanix, BT and Innovix, the Commission’s Reply made it clear that it was alleging agreements or concerted practices. The basis of the Commission’s argument, both formal and substantive, was clear to Innovix on the pleadings. 240. Again, Hung had prepared the tender documents to be submitted by Innovix, including the prices in the Schedule of Rates. The prices inserted were 16.7% higher (for the main item – Item 2.1) and 20% higher (in respect of annual maintenance for the 4th and 5th years) than BT’s prices. Hung emailed the tender documents he had prepared to Siu and Cheung on 18 July

  1. Later, in Hung’s presence, Siu filled in the blanks and signed the tender

documents (except the Supplier Profile Form which was signed by Cheung). Hung took away the tender documents, which were eventually delivered by Shek to YWCA together with SiS’s bid. 241. Siu and Cheung were called by Innovix to give evidence at trial. Siu was a Product Manager of Innovix. He explained that Innovix was both a distributor and re‑seller of IT products. His team, being one of two such teams in Innovix, was responsible for a number of brands of products including Nutanix, and handled a large number of transactions every year (eg around 5,800 purchase orders in 2016) and several hundreds of requests for quotations and other enquiries from customers each week. Although he rarely came across tenders, he considered his role to be the same, ie to provide a quotation for the customer’s consideration. In the case of Nutanix products, Innovix had to ask Nutanix for a quote in order to pursue any business opportunity.

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V 242. Siu was involved in providing quotations for the Nutanix-NX solution to BT for the YWCA opportunity in the summer of 2015 (see §§93- 100 above), but by early January 2016 he had learnt that YWCA wanted a Dell‑Nutanix solution instead. He said that this meant the end of his team’s involvement because another team in Innovix (in particular, Jacky Lee’s) was responsible for Dell products. He said that after passing to Jacky Lee at the end of January 2016 the e‑mails on technical issues between Innovix, BT, Nutanix and YWCA, he did not have any further involvement with the YWCA opportunity until July 2016. He was not aware of the first tender. 243. Cheung received the invitation to the second tender from YWCA and passed the documents to Siu. As to the telephone conversation with Hung on around 14 July 2016 in which he mentioned YWCA’s tender invitation and Hung said he would “handle” it (see §141 above), Siu said he understood Hung to mean that Nutanix would decide whether to provide Innovix with a quotation and revert to him. 244. Siu explained that he was not feeling well on the morning of 18 July 2016 and arrived in his office at around 10:00. He said shortly after opening the attachments to Hung’s two e‑mails at 09:16 and 09:59 that morning, Hung arrived at Innovix’s office. In his statement he said he had no recollection of reading the sentence “We help BT to bid for Dell deal” which appeared in the first e‑mail or hearing it from Hung. In his oral evidence he positively said he did not read it. He further said in his statement: “Even now, after my attention has been drawn to this sentence, I do not understand what the phrase was intended to mean and I have no idea what Hung meant by that”. 245. Siu went through the tender documents with Hung in the meeting room (except the Technical Proposal which Hung prepared without showing

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V Siu). He said Hung was clearly in a rush and kept telling him to hurry in completing the papers. Siu said the entire process, lasting no more than 20 to 30 minutes, was quite hectic and he had to run around the office to obtain the missing information such as the business registration records and to ask Cheung to sign one of the documents. Siu did not change the prices filled in by Hung and although Siu did not recall discussing Innovix’s margin with Hung, he said he felt “comfortable” that Innovix would end up with room for its margin if it won the tender. Hung offered to deliver the tender documents to YWCA and, as Siu was not feeling well, he had no objection. 246. Siu said he was not at that time aware that BT was also a bidder in the second tender, that anyone had a deal registration with Nutanix relevant for the second tender or that YWCA’s procurement rules required at least five bids for a valid tender. He considered that whether anyone had a deal registration with Nutanix was not relevant to his decision‑making process when providing quotations for Nutanix products. He believed he had “properly considered and completed” the tender documents for Innovix and that, once submitted, they would constitute “a genuine bid with a good chance of winning”. 247. Cheung was an Assistant Product Manager of Innovix. He worked with Siu in handling Nutanix products from July 2015 to the end of June 2016. His evidence was that he found Hung very pushy, scary and difficult to work with and that he agreed to stay on in Innovix beyond June 2016 only after it was agreed that he need not work on Nutanix matters from July 2016. YWCA’s second tender therefore took place during his transition period.

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V 248. Cheung also recalled that in late 2015 he learnt that YWCA preferred the Dell‑Nutanix solution and considered that thereafter it would be a matter for Innovix’s Dell team. When he received the WhatsApp message from Hung at 07:56 on 18 July 2016 (see §143 above), he told Hung to contact Siu. He arrived in the office at about 09:15 and then went out with his colleagues for breakfast before returning to the office at about 10:00. He had not read the two e‑mails from Hung to Siu which were copied to him. He recalled that later that morning, Siu came to his desk and asked him to sign some papers, saying they were tender documents. Cheung signed them without paying any attention. 249. Cheung’s evidence was of peripheral relevance. As to Siu, I do not find him a reliable witness and in critical respects I do not believe his evidence. He was evasive during cross‑examination. His answers do not hang together. 250. The WhatsApp message Hung sent him at 08:35 on 18 July 2016 began with the phrase “Need your help”. Hung was asking Siu for help; he was not offering help to Innovix to bid for the YWCA business. Siu’s response that he did not find those words surprising because if Innovix won the deal Nutanix would also have business, does not sit well with their description of Hung as “scary”, “aggressive” and “pushy”, or with Siu’s evidence that he was simply expecting Hung to help him by providing him with a quotation. 251. Siu had not even attempted to fill in the tender documents by himself prior to 18 July 2016. Although Innovix had not requested or authorised Hung to prepare a tender for it, Hung had taken it upon himself to do so, and had gone to the lengths of filling in the forms as far as he could

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V including the prices. Siu’s claim that he was not surprised by this either was unrealistic if it was Innovix’s genuine bid. When asked whether it was a normal procedure at Innovix for an outsider such as Hung to draft Innovix’s tender submissions at his own initiative, Siu was unable to provide any credible explanation other than to say he found it “reasonable”. In fact he said he had rarely come across tenders, as opposed to requests for quotation. 252. The 09:16 e‑mail from Hung to Siu expressly stated “We help BT to bid for Dell deal”. The e‑mail also asked him to print two copies and he did so.42 Since he said he was a person who disliked hardcopies, he would not have printed off two copies of the attachments unless he had read the e‑mail. I do not find it credible either that he had no recollection of reading the sentence (as claimed in his statement) or that he did not read the e‑mail (as claimed in his oral evidence). He was not able to give a satisfactory answer to whether it was his practice to open attachments without reading the text of e‑mails. Just prior to the weekend, on around 14 July, Siu had asked Hung what should be done with regard to the YWCA tender which had a deadline of Monday 18 July noon. On 15 July, Friday, Cheung forwarded to Siu the reminder from YWCA (Wong) stating the Monday deadline and requesting for a tender. When he finally received Hung’s email on Monday he would have wanted to know how Hung wanted to “handle” the tender. I found that Siu did read it. 253. It is also not credible that Siu did not know what that sentence meant. It was a short, simple sentence. Siu admitted he knew what “BT” referred to. In writing it, Hung plainly thought that Siu would know what he meant. After all, Siu had been involved in helping BT with giving quotations

42 Siu said either he or Cheung (though he was not sure which) printed the documents but since Cheung had not read the e‑mails, it must be Siu who printed the attachments.

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V to YWCA for the Nutanix system, and later learnt that YWCA wanted the Dell-Nutanix solution instead of the Nutanix-NX solution. He received the invitation to the YWCA tender and had asked Hung what should be done with it. On Monday morning the email to him had the subject of “YWCA Tender deadline today”, told him to “help BT to bid for Dell deal”, and attached completed YWCA tender forms for him to sign. Siu accepted that he had wondered from time to time what Hung was getting at, but could offer no alternative meaning. His claim that even after the Commission’s investigation and the commencement of these proceedings, and even as he was testifying in the Tribunal, he still had “no idea” what Hung meant, is to my mind utterly beyond belief. Plainly, as he well understood, it indicated to him an arrangement whereby Innovix was to put in a bid to YWCA, not to win but to help BT’s bid win. 254. The Schedule of Rates had been completely filled in by Hung, leaving only the signature. Remarkably on his case, Siu did not know how much Innovix would itself have to pay for the product. His explanation was that he took a look at the price in the Schedule of Rates, guessed the cost price which he thought would be “a bit more than HK$200,000” per node, and thought the tender price should be “okay”. I find this explanation wholly incredible. 255. The mark‑up margin of Innovix is a matter for Innovix to decide. It is against business common sense that Innovix would submit a tender, with a price binding on itself, without even obtaining a quotation from the ultimate vendor. If Innovix’s bid was truly intended to be genuine, it is inconceivable that Siu would have taken no step at all to find out what Innovix would be charged for the product by Nutanix or Dell, particularly given the importance he attached to prices and numbers.

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V 256. Since Hung was there in Innovix’s office, there was no reason why Siu did not obtain a quotation from him, which was what he claimed he thought Hung would revert to him with. In cross‑examination, Siu said there was “not a word” discussed with Hung as regards the cost price for Innovix, but could not credibly explain why. Siu said he did not raise it with Hung because he (Siu) “did things based on trust”. He knew Hung would not let Innovix make a huge profit but trusted that he would give Innovix “at least a reasonable margin”. This is hard to believe given that, according to Siu, he did not like Hung very much at all and found him “pushy and aggressive”, and “scary and difficult to work with”.43 Hung had previously repeatedly made demands to Innovix which required “huge resources” from Innovix but with “all too little benefit” to it. 257. It is also incredible that Siu could “guess” the cost price, as he claimed, because the evidence was that it would differ depending on which kind of hardware was employed — Dell, Lenovo or Nutanix. At one point in his oral evidence Siu said the price would be similar whichever hardware was used, but just a little later he said he knew YWCA had earlier opted for Dell partly because of the difference in price between Dell hardware and Nutanix hardware. There is no explanation why he needed to “guess” when Hung was right there at the office with him. 258. What was offered in Innovix’s bid was in fact the Dell‑Nutanix combination, which means that Innovix would have had to source from Dell. The evidence from Nutanix (Frank Young III) was that for a Dell-Nutanix solution, the product (Dell hardware packaged with Nutanix software) would be sold by Dell directly who would pay a royalty to Nutanix for the software component. Siu did not know how much Dell would charge. In fact, on Siu’s

43 a description of Hung by Cheung with which Siu agreed.

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V evidence, what Dell would charge Innovix would never have entered Siu’s mind at all because he did not even notice that Innovix’s bid offered a Dell‑Nutanix solution; he thought it was a Nutanix-NX solution. 259. If the bid was genuine, it would be extraordinary that Siu, as he claimed, did not notice that the Schedule of Rates specified a Dell‑Nutanix solution rather than a Nutanix‑NX solution. The model numbers for the two products were completely different, and Siu said he was very familiar with Nutanix products. Even if Siu was a “computer geek” (in the words of Innovix’s counsel) who would not read the fine print of a tender document, and even assuming he was as busy as he claimed, he would at least have paid attention to what product he was offering to sell in the tender. On his own evidence, while he might not be too interested in the other information, the “most important” was the price and technical documents. 260. The only credible explanation for what happened was that he did not care. It was simply not a genuine bid. He had no expectation that Innovix would be called upon to deliver whatever was written there. There is no truth in his claim that he had carefully and properly considered the tender documents. 261. It is plain that Siu approached the tender documents in a “slap‑dash” manner. (1) In the Form of Tender, Siu filled in the initial numbers of Innovix’s business registration certificate and its date in the section intended to apply where a subsidiary of the tenderer will be submitting the bid and gave no particular thought as to whether it would be Innovix or its subsidiary that might take up the opportunity. Incidentally, the Form of Tender sent by Hung

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V to Siu (as one of two attachments to the 09:16 e‑mail) had Tech‑21’s website address and Steve Ng’s e‑mail address inserted. These were tippexed out when Siu completed the form with Hung. (2) Siu had read neither the Terms and Conditions of Tender nor the Technical Specifications before signing the Compliance List which provided what were supposed to be Innovix’s answers to questions about those documents. (3) As for the Supplier Profile Form: (a) It wrongly stated Innovix to be a “Partnership” (as opposed to “Private Corporation”). (b) None of the documents requested in the Supplier Profile Form, such as a brochure and the business registration certificate, was included with the tender. Nor was any banking information provided. In the space for the bank’s name, Hung had typed in the words: “Detail will provided when Tender Award” (sic). (c) Under “work schedule”, Hung had typed “5 Days/Month, 7 Days/Week, 24 Hours/Day”. Siu crossed out “5” and wrote down “30”, but even with the amendment the work schedule was still patently unrealistic. (4) Siu did not prepare and include any Technical Proposal which was prominently stated in Part D of the Form of Tender as a document required as part of the tender offer: “ The Tenderer is required to provide a Technical Proposal, which forms part of the Tender Offer, for the consideration of the [YWCA]. …”

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V Furthermore, YWCA’s invitation letter and e‑mail of 8 July 2016 had mentioned the Technical Proposal as one of the documents required for the tender to be acceptable. (5) Siu did not apply Innovix’s company chop to the tender documents. (6) Siu did not even keep a copy of the tender documents as filled in, amended, and signed. 262. While one does not necessarily expect perfection in the documentation, a company which had any desire of winning the tender would have taken some care with the preparation of the tender documents. Clause 1.8 of the Terms and Conditions of the tender expressly provided that tenders may not be considered if complete information was not given or if any of the particulars and data asked for in the Form of Tender, Schedule of Rates and/or Letter of Invitation were not furnished in full. This is not a simple quotation that Siu could provide by sending a short email. 263. Innovix submitted that there was no motive for Siu to agree to submit a non-genuine bid to YWCA. However, as the documents show, it was Hung’s request to Siu for help, which was in turn to help BT’s bid. I do not think that the absence of any specific financial or commercial reward shows the agreement to be improbable. After all, the parties were in a continuing relationship: Innovix was one of the only two distributors of Nutanix products in Hong Kong at the time, and despite being a relatively new entrant to the Hong Kong market, Nutanix products accounted for about 5% of the team sales of Siu. Nutanix was also a major player, if not the one with the biggest market share worldwide – for hyper-converged systems in 2015 to 2016.

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V 264. For its part, BT knew Innovix was one of the “friends” from whom Nutanix would procure dummy bids. I reject BT’s submission that “they had no knowledge that Nutanix were contacting Innovix”.44 On 5 July 2016 Chan already told Hung that once Chan finished the table (referring to the Schedule of Rates), “I will share it with you so you can give the quotation to your friend to just fill in”. On 6 July, Hung gave Chan four names including Innovix. On 10 July, Chan sent Hung BT’s completed Schedule of Rates saying: “Attached is the template I prepared for your friends to fill in”. In fact, on 15 July, Chan prepared and sent Hung a Compliance List with Innovix’s name filled in. 265. In my judgment, the evidence shows beyond doubt that: (1) Pursuant to his agreement with Chan, Hung needed Siu’s help to submit a dummy bid to YWCA in the name of Innovix to help make up the numbers so that BT would win the second tender. (2) BT knew that Innovix was one of the friends from whom Hung was to obtain a dummy bid, which was not intended to win but just to make up the numbers. (3) Siu agreed to help. He knew that BT was entering a bid and what Hung requested of him was intended to help BT win. (4) Siu knew that the bid for Innovix and, in particular, the bid prices, had been prepared by Hung and not by himself, without any reference to anyone in Innovix. Hung knew BT’s bid prices and that Innovix’s bid prices on the main item were 16.7% higher, though there is no evidence that he told Siu this. Nor did Hung tell Chan Innovix’s bid prices. But all three knew that Innovix’s

44 BT Closing §98.

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V bid was not intended to win and was submitted solely to help BT win, and they all had no expectation that Innovix would win. (5) They all intended that YWCA would treat Innovix’s bid as a genuine bid. 266. There was therefore a trilateral agreement between Nutanix, BT and Innovix for Innovix to submit a dummy bid to YWCA to help BT’s bid. Alternatively, they knowingly substituted practical cooperation for the risks of competition by procuring Innovix to submit a bid with no intention of winning but with the intention of helping BT, and thereby engaged in a concerted practice.

H. AGREEMENT BETWEEN NUTANIX AND TECH-21 267. This section deals with the agreement between Nutanix and Tech‑21. The Commission contends that there was an agreement or concerted practice between Nutanix and Tech-21 for Tech-21 to submit a non-genuine bid to YWCA. 268. The basic facts are again not in dispute (see section D(8)(c) above). On 6 July 2016, Hung sent a message to Steve Ng, Sales Manager of Tech-21, stating: “may I have your help on one pig pig quotation. YWCA or YMCA. I call you now?” They then had a telephone conversation. Tech-21 received the invitation to the second tender but its director, Ivan Lau, did not

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V originally intend to bid, and replied to YWCA to that effect at 10:23 on 18 July 2016. 269. Meanwhile, Hung had prepared the tender documents to be submitted by Tech‑21, including the prices in the Schedule of Rates. The price inserted for the main item (item 2.1) was 27.7% higher than BT’s. The product offered was a Nutanix-NX solution. Hung sent a message to Steve Ng at 07:56 on 18 July 2016 stating: “Need your help on YWCA tender response …” They had a telephone conversation at 09:18, which was followed by Steve Ng’s audio message to Hung at 09:20. There were further telephone calls from Hung to Steve Ng and then, at 10:38, Hung e‑mailed to Steve Ng (i) the Form of Tender, (ii) the Schedule of Rates, and (iii) the Supplier Profile Form, for him to complete and sign. By 11:07 Steve Ng had finished with the documents. After leaving SiS’s office in Chai Wan, Hung went to Kwun Tong and collected Tech‑21’s bid, which he submitted to YWCA late, at 12:15. Tech-21’s bid did not contain a Compliance List. 270. Tech‑21 called Steve Ng to give evidence. He explained that he had first approached Hung in around December 2015 to enquire about Nutanix products. Between then and mid 2016, Tech‑21 had three business dealings with Nutanix. He was on a long vacation between June and mid July

  1. He said that he was a bit confused by Hung’s WhatsApp messages at

07:56 on 18 July 2016 and therefore spoke to him on the telephone. He was under the impression that Nutanix had already done the pre‑sales preparatory work with YWCA and that Tech‑21’s chance of winning the tender was “high”. 271. Steve Ng said that he checked the price Hung put in the Schedule of Rates which he found to be similar to the price Tech‑21 usually offered. As

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V time was short, he had not gone through the details of the tender documents except the price. He signed and stamped the company chop on the tender documents, put them into an envelope and handed it to Hung in Kwun Tong. He had not seen the Technical Proposal submitted with Tech‑21’s bid, which must have been inserted by Hung himself after collecting the envelope. 272. Steve Ng said he adopted Hung’s price since his main concern was to win the tender. He thought that Nutanix would offer him “a good price” and that he “would be able to negotiate a good price from Nutanix and make some profit should Tech‑21 win the bid”. He thought the chance of winning the tender was “50/50”. He said some time after 18 July 2016 he called Hung and asked whether Tech‑21’s price was attractive and Hung said it was. Steve Ng said he had never heard of the company “BT Hong Kong Limited” and that he believed Tech‑21’s bid was a genuine bid. 273. Although Steve Ng had already left Tech‑21 by the time of trial, I do not find his evidence reliable. In my judgment the evidence establishes that Steve Ng knew that the bid submitted by Tech‑21 was not intended to win but was submitted simply as a favour to Hung. 274. Steve Ng claimed that he understood Hung was referring the YWCA tender opportunity to Tech-21. However, he accepted that in doing so, Hung would be helping him. But the WhatsApp message Hung sent him at 07:56 on 18 July 2016 started with “Need your help …”. This was not usual pleasantry, as Steve Ng claimed. Tech‑21 had received YWCA’s invitation to tender but did not intend to bid. Steve Ng’s boss, Ivan Lau, indeed replied to YWCA at 10:23 on the very same day that Tech‑21 would not be tendering. In truth, Steve Ng knew that he was being asked by Hung for help and that he

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V was helping Hung — rather than the other way round — by completing the tender documents. 275. This is fortified by the audio message Steve Ng sent Hung at 09:20, which ran: “ Does it require company stamp? I don’t know, it should require having company stamp for normal case. I need to see and think as to what to do for you.”45 276. Plainly Steve Ng knew that this was not a “normal case” and that he was doing something for Hung. When asked about this audio message, Steve Ng was unable to give any coherent explanation of what was abnormal about this case, as shown in the following exchanges: “ Q. Now, in that conversation you made it clear — I’m referring to the second sentence — that for the normal case a company stamp would be required? A. Right. Q. So what was abnormal about this case? A. That no company stamp was affixed, that no company chop was affixed, if there was no company chop affixed and I got flunked, so I will be dead. Q. So if this was just a normal transaction, why did you not arrange for the company chop to be used, as was the normal practice? A. So I said that the company stamp needed to be arranged. This here says that the company stamp needed to be arranged. Otherwise the customer might flunk me. Q. Did you arrange for the chop? A. Yes. Q. Was the chop used on the documents? A. Yes.

45 In Chinese original: 「喂要唔要扱公司印㗎?個簽名……我唔知呀,正常應該要揼公司印㗎 喎,我要睇嚇諗諗同你點樣搞呀。」

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V Q. Was there anything abnormal about this case that you had to ask that question? A. No. Q. In the end of that message you said to Mr Hung, ‘I’ll need to see and think as to what to do for you’. Do you see those words? A. Yes. Q. Was that in response to Mr Hung asking you for help? A. I would have to give him the reply that I would take the case. Q. He had asked you for help, and you were saying, ‘I’ll need to see and think as to what to do for you’? A. Right, correct.” 277. When the three tender documents were eventually sent to Steve Ng at 10:38, time was very short, and he also had a meeting at 11:00. There was clearly insufficient time for him to give proper consideration to the tender documents. Steve Ng also admitted he had not read the terms and conditions of tender before signing the tender documents without any alteration at all. 278. If Tech‑21 was serious about the tender, it was important that it submitted documentation satisfactory to those who had the task of awarding the tender. Steve Ng’s evidence disputing this seems to me incredible. It is however understandable why he denied it, since there were numerous problems with Tech‑21’s bid. 279. Prominently on the front page of the Form of Tender, Tech-21 did not fill in its business registration certificate number or the expiry date. Instead, the phrase “Please FILL‑in” appeared twice on that page as submitted, which had obviously been inserted by Hung (and highlighted in yellow for Steve Ng in the soft copy).

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V 280. Only one entry (in the space for seven numbered entries) was put in Part D of the Form of Tender, namely “Overall Company Profile with Technical Proposal”. However, Steve Ng had neither seen such Overall Company Profile nor Technical Proposal, even though he signed the page and stamped the company chop at the bottom. While a Technical Proposal was eventually submitted with Tech‑21’s bid, it is plain that Hung inserted it himself into the envelope after he collected it from Steve Ng. Steve Ng said he had not seen the Technical Proposal and had “no idea about this document at all”. On Tech-21’s case, it would be extraordinary that Steve Ng did not even think about the Technical Proposal, which, as stated in the Form of Tender, was a document required and formed part of the tender offer (see quoted words in §124 above). In fact, Steve Ng had no idea about the document because he was not serious about the tender. 281. Steve Ng said he did not have any discussion with Hung about the price. He simply signed and stamped the Schedule of Rates without making any changes. He thought the amount stated in the Schedule of Rates was the cost price to Tech‑21, and that if Tech‑21 really won the tender they would “become thick faced” and start asking Nutanix to offer a lower cost. I accept that Steve Ng did not discuss the price with Hung but I reject his explanation. (1) Steve Ng at first accepted that the “normal” procedure for Tech‑21 when tendering a price to an end-user was to include a figure with two elements: (i) acquisition cost to Tech‑21, and (ii) Tech‑21’s mark‑up margin. (2) When questioned as to why this transaction was any different, Steve Ng was unable to provide any coherent explanation. Instead, he was forced to say that there was “no difference” and

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V his “usual practice” was to give out a quote of “zero margin” and then “negotiate the price” with the vendor. This, he claimed, he did “all the time”. (3) This is wholly at odds with his statement, which stated that after he had received a price quote from the vendor, he could decide whether or not to mark up, and, if so, how much to mark up. (4) On Steve Ng’s new version, Tech‑21 would inevitably make a loss on its contract with YWCA unless Tech‑21 could subsequently negotiate a lower price with Nutanix, given that if it won, Tech‑21 had to provide a 3‑year onsite maintenance support warranty, third‑party liability and employee compensation insurance coverage, site supervision, site coordination with other parties, site protection, site cleaning and debris removal under item 1.0 in the Schedule of Rates. Yet Steve Ng simply signed it, without changing the rates and without even speaking to Hung about price at all. As a matter of business common sense, the evidence is not credible. (5) This is not a case where Steve Ng was given a quote by Hung of what Nutanix would charge Tech-21 and asked to make his own bid to YWCA. He was faced with a remarkable situation where Hung had, of his own motion, filled in the Schedule of Rates for Tech-21 and sent it to Steve Ng simply to print out and sign. There is no credible reason, if this was a genuine tender, why Steve Ng simply assumed the bid price filled in by Hung was Tech-21’s cost price, without speaking to Hung about the price at all. (6) Steve Ng’s explanation is therefore implausible even in the isolated context of the YWCA tender. It is wholly inconceivable that this was Tech‑21’s “usual practice” as he claimed.

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V (7) Steve Ng’s suggestion that he understood the price stated in the Schedule of Rates provided by Hung represented Tech-21’s cost is inconsistent with Siu’s suggestion that the price inserted by Hung represented Innovix’s cost plus a mark-up margin for Innovix (see §245 above). The truth is that neither explanation is credible. (8) Tech-21’s submission that this might be a naïve but innocent attempt on its part to win a customer is not realistic. The only reasonable inference in my view is that Steve Ng did not care about the price and did not discuss it with Hung because the bid was not intended to win and he did not expect Tech-21 would be called upon to supply the product to YWCA. 282. Tech-21 did not fill in the Supplier Profile Form properly. (1) The form wrongly stated Tech‑21 to be a “Partnership” (as opposed to “Private Corporation”). (2) It wrongly stated the total number of employees as “over 60” when there were only ten odd people in the company. (3) Under “work schedule”, Hung had typed “5 Days/Month, 7 Days/Week, 24 Hours/Day”, as in the form he had filled in for Innovix. Unlike Innovix’s bid, however, no amendment was made to “5 Days/Month” (see §261 above). The work schedule as submitted just did not make sense. (4) Under “Bank Name”, Hung had filled in: “Detail will provided when Tender Award” (sic), which Tech‑21 left to stand. 283. Furthermore, Tech‑21 did not submit a Compliance List with its tender. That means Steve Ng omitted both the Compliance List and the Technical Proposal even though YWCA’s invitation letter and e‑mail of

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V 8 July 2016 expressly specified both documents were required for the tender to be acceptable. 284. Tech-21 also did not bother to keep a copy of the signed tender documents. 285. Tech-21 submitted that between 18 July and 9 August 2016, Steve Ng followed up with Hung and asked whether the price offered by Tech-21 was attractive and whether they had the chance to win, and that Hung told him it was attractive and they did have a chance. However, as I have found the central part of Steve Ng’s story about the events on 18 July 2016 incredible, I do not consider this alleged subsequent conversation (albeit not dealt with by the Commission in cross-examination) can be given credence. 286. It is true that there is no evidence to show that Steve Ng was aware that YWCA required a certain minimum number of bids, or that Tech- 21’s bid was to make up a total of at least five bids, or that it was submitted to help BT win. There is no evidence that Steve Ng knew who the other bidders were. However, the way Tech-21 approached the tender is wholly incompatible with any intention on its part that the bid was a genuine one submitted with a view to winning the contract. On the contrary, the evidence shows that Steve Ng saw this as an abnormal case. He knew he was submitting a bid, which was not genuine and not intended to win, in cooperation with Nutanix. The plain intention is to create a false impression for YWCA that there was an independent genuine bid from Tech-21 competing in the tender. 287. On the evidence, I find that:

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V (1) Pursuant to his agreement with Chan, Hung needed to procure a dummy bid from Tech-21. (2) The bid documents had been provided by Hung; they were not prepared by or with reference to anyone in Tech-21, and Steve Ng knew that. Steve Ng also knew that the bid prices had already been inserted in the documents, but was not concerned about them because he did not intend or expect the bid to win. (3) Tech-21’s bid was submitted solely because of Hung’s request and as a favour, and Steve Ng knew that. (4) Steve Ng knew that Tech-21’s bid was not intended to win, and did not have any expectation it would win, but he intended that YWCA would receive Tech-21’s bid as a genuine bid and be led to believe that there was an independent genuine bid from Tech- 21 competing in the tender.

I. ATTRIBUTION OF CONDUCT AND KNOWLEDGE (1) The issue 288. The competition rules in the Ordinance focus on the conduct of undertakings. An undertaking, as defined in s 2: “ means any entity, regardless of its legal status or the way in which it is financed, engaged in economic activity, and includes a natural person engaged in economic activity”.

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V 289. It can be seen that an undertaking designates an economic unit. It does not correspond to the concept of a legal person. While undertakings may be natural persons, very often they are companies. Each of the five respondents in this case is a company. A company acts through human agents. There is no dispute that the conduct of Hung, Chan, Siu and Steve Ng was attributable to Nutanix, BT, Innovix and Tech-21 respectively. The issue has arisen, however, as to whether what Shek knew and did may be attributed to SiS. (2) The facts 290. The following facts are established by the evidence. (a) The set‑up within SiS 291. SiS was a wholly‑owned subsidiary of SiS International Holdings Ltd, a company listed on the Hong Kong Stock Exchange. The principal business of SiS involved the distribution of IT products, including computer storage, network and infrastructure products, in Hong Kong and Macau. This means that SiS would purchase products from the vendors and sell them to resellers who would on‑sell them to end‑users. It would also help vendors market and promote their products to resellers. As a distributor, SiS did not, with rare exceptions, sell directly to end users, and did not respond to tender invitations from end‑users. Exceptions occurred where, for example, resellers purchased products from SiS for their own use, thereby assuming the role of end-users, or a vendor had already signed a global contract with an end‑user and SiS was involved as a fulfilment hub to sell directly to the end‑user. 292. Thus although the terms of the International Distribution Agreement, whereby SiS was appointed a non‑exclusive distributor of

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V Nutanix products, allowed SiS to purchase Nutanix products for resale to both resellers and end‑users, SiS did not in fact sell directly to end‑users. In particular, SiS had never submitted a bid in the tender exercises of end‑users. This is consistent with the evidence that, on 6 July 2016, when Priscilla Szeto, Assistant Sales Manager of SiS, received a telephone call from Wong (of APD of YWCA) asking if SiS would be interested in submitting a tender to YWCA for a hyper‑converged system, she immediately replied in the negative, though she mentioned that she could forward his enquiry to resellers. She followed this up with an email of the same date to Wong in which she offered to remind some resellers to respond to the tender. 293. In cases involving response to a reseller’s request for quotation, SiS’s Sales Department would work with and obtain approval from the Product Marketing Department, Technical Department, and Finance Department before submitting the response to Raymond Au, Business Development Director and the head of SiS, for consideration, who would also pass the same to the Finance Department at the group level for the terms to be reviewed. No single member of staff within SiS could individually decide on the contents of a response to a request for proposal. 294. Within SiS there were well defined limits of employee responsibility. Shek was at the material time one of eleven Product Managers in SiS, who were relatively junior employees in the organisation, working under the supervision of Joe Lam, Senior Business Manager. Each Product Manager was responsible for approximately two vendors. One of those, in the case of Shek, was Nutanix, starting from October 2015. His job included providing product information to customers and organising promotional activities, but he did not have authority to make any major decisions. He was authorised to provide provisional quotations to resellers, but if a provisional

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V quotation was acceptable to the reseller, the matter still had to be approved by Shek’s superiors and other departments and eventually by Raymond Au. Shek had no authority to commit SiS to any expenditure, to sign any outgoing documents to bind SiS, or to enter into any formal agreement on behalf of SiS, including the tender submitted to YWCA. Shek accepted that the statement in the Form of Tender in SiS’s bid that he was the authorised personnel of SiS was false. 295. SiS published a Code of Conduct for its employees. The version current at the relevant time provided in clause 6: “ - We believe in vigorous, fair and legal competition. The anti‑trust laws (aka competition laws, consumer protection laws or unfair competition laws in some countries) prohibit business practices that limit competition improperly. Although the spirit of these laws is straightforward, their application to particular situations can be very complex. Always seek legal advice if

there is any doubt.

Agreements among competitors to fix prices, restrict output, allocate markets or customers, rig bids or violate fair bidding practices, or boycott the supplier or customer are prohibited and generally illegal.” 296. After Shek joined SiS, there had been at least two compliance training sessions for its employees on regulatory and compliance issues organised by SiS’s vendors. One of them was held in September 2015 and included topics on competition best practices, which explained that bid rigging (referred to as a scheme in which businesses collude so that a competing business can secure a contract for goods or services at a predetermined price) was prohibited. (b) The second tender 297. On 6 July, Wong called Priscilla Szeto and asked if SiS was a

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V distributor of Nutanix products, to which Szeto said yes, and whether SiS would be interested in submitting a tender to YWCA for a hyper-converged system, to which Szeto said no. She however offered to forward his enquiry to other resellers to see if they were interested. 298. Later that day, Szeto emailed Wong (cc Shek) and asked him to provide the tender document so that she could chase the resellers to reply. Wong replied (cc Shek), saying the detailed tender specifications were still a work in progress, but gave the basic information of what was required. Szeto then replied saying she would update Wong soon, which she did not because, she explained in her evidence, SiS would not sell directly to end-users anyway and she did not receive the tender document from Wong. 299. By an email dated 8 July 2016 sent to Shek, Wong sent SiS an invitation to the second tender. (c) Submitting the bid on 18 July 2016 300. According to Shek, on the morning of 18 July 2016, he had told Raymond Au and Joe Lam that Hung would be coming to SiS’s office and that Hung had asked SiS to submit a return bid as there were insufficient bids, and neither of them expressed any disapproval. I reject this evidence. In fact, on Au’s evidence, which was in the end unchallenged, he was on sick leave that morning and did not get back to the office until after both Hung and Shek had left, and could not therefore have had the conversation with Shek as alleged by him. Joe Lam was in the office and did catch sight of Hung just as he was about to leave, but I accept his evidence that he did not speak to Shek as alleged.

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V 301. Although there were other people in the office, Shek acted alone with Hung in filling in the tender documents in SiS’s office. Shek did manage to have SiS’s company chop applied to the tender documents. Precisely how this occurred was the subject of controversy, which I deal with below. 302. Shek took a taxi to YWCA to deliver SiS’s and Innovix’s bids. Hung offered to reimburse him for the taxi fare but Shek declined. Instead, Shek submitted the taxi receipt to SiS for reimbursement of the expense. For the claim, Shek stated that he went to “M Security” or “M Securities”, instead of YWCA. Shek was unable to identify which entity he meant to refer to by that name, or to offer any credible explanation for putting down that name which he had not heard of before. I do not believe the suggestion that by the time he filled in the expense form, he had forgotten where he had been that morning. It seems to me far more likely, and I find, that he put down a nondescript name because he did not want to reveal to SiS’s Finance Department his trip to YWCA on 18 July 2016. 303. Shek made no report of the bid to SiS; nor did he keep a hard copy of the documents submitted. I do not accept his claim that he kept a set of the documents next to his desk — it was not there when the Commission searched the office. The probable reason why he did not keep a copy was that he believed SiS would never win the tender. Since he was the sole contact person on the tender documents, he would have been the only one in SiS notified by YWCA when eventually the bid, as expected, failed. (d) The meeting on 9 August 2016 304. Shek did not report to anyone in SiS afterwards that he had submitted a bid to YWCA in the name of SiS. The first time that SiS’s

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V management learnt of the bid was 9 August 2016 when the Commission visited SiS’s office for investigation. After the Commission officers left, Raymond Au called a meeting with Shek, attended also by Joe Lam, Priscilla Szeto and one Alan Chan. When questioned why he submitted a bid to YWCA, Shek explained he did so because Hung asked him to do so. He said that the request came at very short notice and that he had submitted the tender “for reference only”. Au had a few choice words for Shek for what he had done and told him not to do it again. I reject Shek’s evidence that Au did not express any disapproval of his conduct. (e) SiS’s company chop 305. Regarding the use of SiS’s company chop on the tender documents, Shek’s evidence vacillated. In his statement dated 13 February 2017, Shek said he recalled placing a chop on the documents, which suggests it was he who stamped them. This is consistent with the Commission’s Reply which pleaded that Shek signed and chopped the documents. In his statement dated 19 October 2017, Shek said he brought the documents to the colleague who kept the company chop and asked her to stamp the documents with it. He said the colleague asked about the nature of the documents and his reply “should be” that they were tender documents, though he could not recall the exact answer he gave. He identified the colleague as Shirley Pang, head of the Operations Department, in his statement of 27 November 2017. His draft statements were likewise inconsistent. In oral evidence Shek initially said that the chop was applied by Shirley Pang and he did mention to her that it was a tender document, but later retreated to saying that if it was he himself who affixed the chop, it would have been in Pang’s presence and with her knowledge.

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V 306. I do not think Shek’s evidence that he told Shirley Pang about putting the chop on tender documents is reliable. His evidence in the October 2017 statement was tentative. In that same statement he claimed that no guidelines had ever been laid down by SiS on the use of the company chop, which he admitted at trial to be a false statement, because in fact Shirley Pang had issued a circular on 6 June 2016 on the use of the company chop which stated as follows: “ For security reason, please be reminded that you should put the company chop in a safe and proper place when you are away. For those who need the Chop for business purpose, you can get it from me by completing the requisition form with your department head’s approval.” The requisition form attached required the purpose to be filled in. 307. It is common ground that there was no requisition form filled in by Shek on 18 July 2016. But this could be due to the fact that Shek’s responsibilities included completing documents for obtaining import and export licences for products on a weekly basis, which Shek had to bring to Shirley Pang for stamping with the company chop. Raymond Au said that, as a consequence, Shek was in a somewhat special position, so that the policy on company chop was not strictly enforced in relation to him and approval could be obtained orally from Shirley Pang instead. 308. The Commission submitted that the Tribunal should draw an inference, adverse to SiS, from the fact that it did not produce Shirley Pang, who was still in its employ, as a witness. I noticed that Raymond Au was distinctly uneasy when asked why he did not mention Shirley Pang by name in his own statement and also when asked why she was not called. His answer to the latter question was that she “doesn’t really know how to speak”.

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V Further, SiS’s hearsay notice did not cover the paragraph in Raymond Au’s witness statement which stated that he had checked with the colleague in question who confirmed that it was Shek who took the chop and applied it to the tender documents. However, I decline to draw an inference that Shirley Pang knew that Shek applied the company chop to the tender documents, because: (1) While the Commission relied in its pleaded case on the fact that Shek was provided with access to SiS’s company chop, it did not advance a case that Shirley Pang or any other person responsible for the chop either knew or should have known that Shek applied it to the YWCA tender documents. (2) Shek’s evidence in his statement about what he said to Pang was tentative — using the phrase “should be” and saying he could not recall exactly what he told her. Also, for some unknown reason, like Raymond Au, he too was reluctant to name Shirley Pang in his witness statement. It was only in his oral evidence that he asserted definitely that he mentioned it to Pang. Further, his evidence, insofar as it sought to implicate others in SiS, has been shown to be unreliable. 309. It was possible that Shek gave Pang some broad, anodyne reason for requiring urgent access to the company chop, and was trusted by Pang with it. Shek made no claim that he explained to the meeting on 9 August 2016 that he had told Pang about submitting a tender, which one would have expected him to do upon being reprehended, if Pang was indeed in the know. At most, in my opinion, the evidence shows that Pang allowed Shek to have access to the company chop without herself ascertaining what the documents were.

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V (f) Shek’s motives 310. As to Shek’s motives, in his statement he said that he assisted Hung because it was in the interest of SiS, as one of Nutanix’s two distributors in Hong Kong, to maintain good relations with Nutanix and Hung. He was afraid that if he did not act as instructed, he would upset him and that might in turn indirectly affect future business cooperation between SiS and Nutanix. He also said that he made an expense claim for the taxi fare because he considered doing work for SiS’s vendors to be part of his day‑to‑day duties. 311. This in my view is not the complete picture. A very substantial proportion of Shek’s income from SiS in May and June 2016 consisted of commission for the sale of Nutanix products (Shek being entitled to a percentage of the revenue as his commission if certain conditions on sales volume and gross profit were met). His income in May 2016 was by far the highest he earned while in SiS. In addition, he was invited to a worldwide Nutanix function in Las Vegas between 20 and 24 June 2016 — his first trip to the United States — during which he socialised with Hung, among others, in events including a helicopter tour of the Grand Canyon (free of charge for Shek). 312. It seems to me that by July 2016, Hung held sway over Shek. In a way, Hung was “boss” (which was how Mike Lam (iCON) addressed him in an email: see §127 above). When Hung asked for a favour, Shek felt obliged to help. He was worried that if he did not, Hung would be very angry with him, and that could potentially affect the sales of Nutanix products through SiS and hence his own performance and commission income, even though Hung made no explicit threat of withdrawing business. He felt under great stress that morning because of the time pressure. He was, on his own

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V evidence, “very worried” that Hung would be “extremely angry” with him if he failed to deliver the bids on time. 313. I accept that keeping good relations with Nutanix would be of benefit to SiS too, but there was a formal distributorship agreement between the two companies and it is doubtful to my mind how much the personal relationship between Hung and Shek could affect, and was perceived by Shek as capable of affecting, the relationship between the two companies. Moreover, as evidenced by the taxi fare expense claim, Shek took steps to conceal the transaction from SiS. He knew what he did was not authorised or permitted by his employer. It seems to me Shek was actuated to do what he did by a desire to please Hung or avoid offending him. 314. SiS submitted that because it was essentially a distributor only, winning the YWCA tender might have jeopardised SiS’s commercial arrangements with vendors and resellers. However, I do not think these consequences entered Shek’s mind at the time because he had never intended or expected SiS to win the tender. In all likelihood, he thought that what he did would not cause any harm to SiS, but I do not think he acted primarily with a view to benefiting SiS. (3) Special rule of attribution 315. As explained by Lord Hoffmann in Meridian Global Funds Management Asia Ltd v Securities Commission [1995] 2 AC 500, apart from the primary rules of attribution found in a company’s constitution, typically the articles of association, and general rules of attribution in the form of the principles of agency and vicarious liability and the like, there is a third category of special rules of attribution which may be relied upon to determine

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V the rights and obligations of companies. In particular, Lord Hoffmann stated: “ But there will be many cases … in which the court considers that the law was intended to apply to companies and that, although it excludes ordinary vicarious liability, insistence on the primary rules of attribution would in practice defeat that intention. In such a case, the court must fashion a special rule of attribution for the particular substantive rule. This is always a matter of interpretation: given that it was intended to apply to a company, how was it intended to apply? Whose act (or knowledge, or state of mind) was for this purpose intended to count as the act etc. of the company? One finds the answer to this question by applying the usual canons of interpretation, taking into account the language of the rule (if it is a statute) and its content and policy.” 316. In Moulin Global Eyecare Trading Ltd v Commissioner of Inland Revenue (2014) 17 HKCFAR 218, Lord Walker of Gestingthorpe NPJ stated (at §78): “ The third category is sometimes referred to as special rules of attribution, which may give the impression that they are to be found in specific statutory provisions. Any such impression would be misleading. The way in which Lord Hoffmann himself put it (at p 507E) was that “In such a case, the court must fashion a special rule of attribution for the particular substantive rule.” Often the legislature will not have spelled out any rule of attribution in clear terms, and in those cases it is the court’s task to determine the intention of the legislature from the statutory language, purpose and context. …” 317. In HKSAR v Luk Kin Peter Joseph (2016) 19 HKCFAR 619, Lord Hoffmann NPJ (with whom all other members of the court agreed) stated (at §41): “ In my opinion it cannot be too strongly emphasized that there are no such ‘common law principles’ [ie uniform common law principles by which one attributes acts, knowledge, states of mind etc to a company]. The authorities since Meridian Global Funds Management Asia Ltd v Securities Commission [1995] 2 AC 500 and in particular the more recent cases of Moulin Global Eyecare Trading Ltd v Commissioner of Inland Revenue (2014) 17 HKCFAR 218 and Bilta (UK) Ltd (in liquidation) and others v Nazir and Ors (No 2) [2016] AC 1 make it clear that in every case the

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V criteria for attribution must be such as will give effect to the purpose and policy of the relevant substantive rule, whether that rule is contained in a statute or the common law.” 318. The Commission does not contend that Shek represented SiS on the basis of any primary rule of attribution found in SiS’s articles or the general principles of agency. For its part SiS accepts that there should be a special rule of attribution for the purposes of the first conduct rule that goes beyond the general rules. BT was also content to accept that it may be correct for the purposes of the Ordinance to fashion some special rule of attribution which goes beyond the primary rules and agency rules (although it submitted that for the purpose of the definition of bid rigging, the sole question is that of actual authority for the submission of the bid). Nutanix took a neutral stance on SiS’s defence. 319. It is common ground, therefore, that the issue involves fashioning a special rule of attribution for the purpose of the first conduct rule that is appropriate in light of the statutory scheme. One finds the answer by applying the usual canons of interpretation to the first conduct rule, taking into account its language, content and policy. (4) The parties’ submissions 320. The Commission’s primary position is that, as a matter of construction of the Ordinance, an undertaking is responsible for acts of its employees carried out during their employment which give rise to contraventions of the first conduct rule. It is a rule of attribution that depends on the act being committed within the temporal currency of the employment. 321. As an alternative case, the Commission contends, relying on a

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V number of specified matters which are discussed below, that there was a “sufficiently close connection” between Shek’s conduct and his employment with SiS or that Shek acted with the actual or ostensible authority of SiS, and that SiS should therefore be held liable for Shek’s conduct. 322. In contrast, SiS submitted that an undertaking can be liable for the wrongful acts of its employee provided that the employee, in so acting (albeit in a wrongful manner), was authorized to act on behalf of the undertaking. Whether the undertaking should actually be held liable involves a “multifactorial assessment”, taking into account, inter alia, the role and scope of authority of the employee and its proximity to the impugned conduct; whether the acts were done to benefit the undertaking or some other party; whether management (if not the perpetrator) was aware of the unlawful act, and whether it has been tolerated or tacitly approved; and whether the individuals responsible for the acts could separately be held liable under the Ordinance even if they are not attributable to the undertaking. (5) Overseas jurisprudence (a) EU 323. As the Commission submitted that its contention is consistent with the position in both EU and English case‑law in relation to similar prohibitions on anti‑competitive agreements, I shall first examine the jurisprudence of these two jurisdictions. 324. In Joined Cases 40/73 etc Suiker Unie and Others v Commission, it was argued, inter alia, that since the agreements in question had been entered into between the relevant applicants and their agents who were trade representatives, Art. 85 did not apply. The CJEU held (at §539) that if an

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V agent sells in the name and for the account of a producer or association of producers, he may in principle be regarded as an “auxiliary organ forming an integral part of the latter’s undertaking” bound to carry out his principal’s instructions and thus, “like a commercial employee, forms an economic unit with this undertaking”. 325. Suiker Unie did not concern liability for the acts of employees as such, but it illustrates that EU law approaches the question from the concept of undertaking. For many purposes EU law views employees as incorporated into the employer undertaking, and for that reason, does not consider employees themselves to constitute undertakings within the meaning of EU competition law: see Case C‑22/98 Becu and Others, EU:C:1999:419, §26. 326. In Joined Cases 100/80 to 103/80 Musique Diffusion française and Others v Commission EU:C:1983:158, a distributor of Pioneer Hi‑Fi equipment, Melchers, which was a partnership, was said to have engaged in a concerted practice with Pioneer and MDF, another distributor, to prevent the import of Pioneer products from Germany into France, infringing Art. 85(1) of the EEC Treaty. Melchers argued that acts committed by employees who have not received instructions from the partners in the undertaking may not be attributed to the undertaking (§5) and that it was not liable because it had not been shown that its partners intended to commit the alleged infringement or that they acted negligently (§96). Rejecting the argument, the CJEU held that for liability to attach, “ it is not necessary for there to have been action by, or even knowledge on the part of, the partners or principal managers of the undertaking concerned; action by a person who is authorized to act on behalf of the undertaking suffices.” (§97) At §98, the court added:

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V “ The applicant has not shown that the managers of the hi‑fi division of Melchers exceeded the powers which the partners conferred on them by employing them in those posts. …” 327. In Case T‑53/03 BPB plc v Commission, ECLI:EU:T:2008:254, it was found that the representatives of BPB and other companies had exchanged information on sales volumes and price increases and met with a view to sharing out or at least stabilising the plasterboard markets in various EU countries. It was argued by BPB that since its relevant employee, a Mr D who was a CEO of BPB46, continued the information exchanges even though it had prohibited them in March 1998, BPB could not be responsible for actions taken by an employee who was acting contrary to its instructions, and that any attributable infringement should therefore be held to have ended in March 1998. The Court of First Instance of the EU stated (at §360): “ [BPB’s] argument that its participation in the infringement would have already come to an end in March 1998 if Mr [D] had not disobeyed its instructions is irrelevant. An undertaking — that is to say an economic unit comprising personal, tangible and intangible elements (Case 19/61 Mannesmann v High Authority [1962] ECR 357, 371) — is directed by the organs provided for in its articles of association and any decision imposing a fine on it may be addressed to the management as provided for in those articles of association (management board, management committee, chairman, manager, and so on). The rules of competition would be easily circumvented if the Commission, faced with unlawful conduct on the part of an undertaking, were required to ascertain and to prove who is the author of the various activities, which could have the effect of preventing it from penalising the undertaking which benefited from the cartel.” 328. In Case T‑588/08 Dole Food Co Inc v Commission (affirmed on appeal: Case C‑286/13 P), a case concerning a concerted practice between undertakings in coordinating their quotation prices for bananas marketed in Northern Europe, it was argued that the employees who engaged in the

46 See §§95, 267.

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V impugned pre-pricing communications did not have authority to set, and did not in fact set, the quotation prices. The General Court, rejecting the argument, held (at §§581‑582) that “action by a person who is authorised to act on behalf of the undertaking suffices”, citing Musique Diffusion française. Since the applicants did not contest that their employees involved, being an Area Manager and a Sales Executive, were authorised to engage in the pre‑pricing communications, the fact that they did not have final responsibility for setting quotation prices was irrelevant. See also FSL Holdings v Commission Case T‑655/11, §§303‑304 to the same effect. 329. In Case C‑68/12 Protimonopolný úrad Slovenskej republiky v Slovenská sporiteľňa a.s. EU:C:2013:71 (which I shall refer to as the “Slovakian competition authority case”), the Slovakian competition authority found that three major banks had infringed Art. 81 by entering into an agreement to terminate the current accounts of Akcenta and to refrain from concluding new contracts with Akcenta, which was a non‑bank financial institution providing services comprising cashless foreign exchange transactions and needed to have current accounts in banks for its activities. One of the banks submitted that its employee who took part in the meeting of the representatives of the banks concerned had not been given authority to that effect (§24), though the Slovakian Supreme Court noted that the bank had “not distanced itself from the conduct of that employee”. The CJEU, answering a preliminary question posed by the Slovakian Supreme Court, stated: “ 25. The court observes in that regard that, for Article 101 TFEU to apply, it is not necessary for there to have been action by, or even knowledge on the part of, the partners or principal managers of the undertaking concerned; action by a person who is authorised to act on behalf of the undertaking suffices (Joined Cases 100/80 to 103/80, Musique Diffusion française and Others v Commission [1983] ECR 1825, paragraph 97).

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V 26. Furthermore, as the Commission has pointed out, participation in agreements that are prohibited by the FEU Treaty is more often than not clandestine and is not governed by any formal rules. It is rarely the case that an undertaking’s representative attends a meeting with a mandate to commit an infringement. … 28. … Article 101(1) TFEU must be interpreted as meaning that, in order to find that an agreement is restrictive of competition, it is not necessary to demonstrate personal conduct on the part of a representative authorised under the undertaking’s constitution or the personal assent, in the form of a mandate, of that representative to the conduct of an employee of the undertaking who has participated in an anti‑competitive meeting.” 330. In Case C-542/14 VM Remonts v Konkurences padome EU:C:2016:578, a case concerning attribution of the acts of an independent service provider to an undertaking, the facts of which I have described in §47 above, the CJEU nevertheless referred to the principles relating to attribution of the conduct of employees before distinguishing them from the principles on attribution of the acts of an independent service provider to an undertaking. The CJEU first noted that, in EU competition law, an undertaking is understood as designating an economic unit even if in law that economic unit consists of several persons, natural or legal (§22). The court went on to state, after citing Musique Diffusion française and the Slovakian competition authority case: “ An employee performs his duties for and under the direction of the undertaking for which he works and, thus, is considered to be incorporated into the economic unit comprised by that undertaking …” (§23) and that: “ For the purposes of a finding of infringement of EU competition law any anti‑competitive conduct on the part of an employee is thus attributable to the undertaking to which he belongs and that undertaking is, as a matter of principle, held liable for that conduct.” (§24)

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V 331. While the language of §24 of the judgment in VM Remonts appears very wide, it seems to me, with great respect, that the previous case law did not go that far. Musique Diffusion française concerned the acts of managers who had not apparently exceeded the powers conferred on them by the employment in their posts, and the court referred to the actions of “a person who is authorized to act on behalf of the undertaking”. In BPB the employee was the CEO. The employees in Dole Food were authorised to engage in the pre‑pricing communications which amounted to a concerted practice. VM Remonts itself is not an employee case. None of the cases cited to me is a decision that an undertaking is liable for the infringing acts of any employee regardless of his position and general responsibilities. (b) UK 332. In the UK, in the context of the old law under the Restrictive Trade Practices Act 1976, the question of attribution was considered by the House of Lords in Director General of Fair Trading v Pioneer Concrete (UK) Ltd and Another [1995] 1 AC 456. In that case, injunctions had been obtained by the Director General of Fair Trading from the Restrictive Practices Court against, inter alia, four companies, restraining them from giving effect to certain agreements in contravention of the 1976 Act. Subsequently, employees of those companies (including one Hayter, Unit Manager of Smiths, one of the four companies) made an agreement for the future allocation of supplies of concrete according to certain fixed percentages. The Director applied for remedies on the ground that the four companies were in contempt, having committed breaches of the injunction, and that their relevant employees aided and abetted the contempt. In defence, each company contended that express instructions had been given to each employee not to participate in arrangements of the kind that were concluded and that it had

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V adopted reasonable compliance systems to prevent such breaches. Two of the companies admitted contempt. The Restrictive Practices Court found in favour of the Director in relation to the other two companies but, on appeal by Smiths, the English Court of Appeal reversed the decision, holding that (in Smiths’ case) the agreement was entered into by Hayter personally, not on Smiths’ behalf, as he had made it clear to the other parties that he was forbidden by Smiths to do so and had no authority to do so on its behalf.47 The two companies who had admitted liability sought leave to appeal out of time and their appeals were also allowed by the Court of Appeal.48 333. On appeal of the Director from the decision in relation to these two companies, the House of Lords, however, rejected the Court of Appeal’s reasoning, and held that, under the Act, an employer was liable for the acts of its employees carried out during their employment, even if the acts were prohibited by the employer, known by the other parties to be so prohibited and thus beyond the ostensible authority of the employees. Lord Templeman, referring to the Court of Appeal’s reasoning, said at p 465: “ My Lords, I cannot accept this pronouncement. 49 It would allow a company to enjoy the benefit of restrictions outlawed by Parliament and the benefit of arrangements prohibited by the courts provided that the restrictions were accepted and implemented and the arrangements were negotiated by one or more employees who had been forbidden to do so by some superior employee identified in argument as a member of the ‘higher management’ of the company or by one or more directors of the company identified in argument as ‘the guiding will’ of the company. The decisions of the Court of Appeal in Smiths’ case and in the instant case infringe two principles. The first principle is that a company is an entity separate from its members but, not being a physical person is only capable of acting by its agents. The second

47 See In re Supply of Ready Mixed Concrete [1992] QB 213, 231, 235. 48 In re Supply of Ready Mixed Concrete (No 2) [1994] ICR 57. 49 Referring to the similar holding by the Court of Appeal in the decision allowing the other three companies to obtain leave to appeal out of time: [1994] ICR 57, 66‑67.

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V principle is that a company, in its capacity as supplier of goods, like any other person in the capacity of taxpayer, landlord or in any other capacity, falls to be judged by its actions and not by its language. An employee who acts for the company within the scope of his employment is the company. Directors may give instructions, top management may exhort, middle management may question and workers may listen attentively. But if a worker makes a defective product or a lower manager accepts or rejects an order, he is the company. … When Mr Hayter procured Smiths to implement the arrangement that he had made in breach of his instructions Smiths became a party to the arrangement and Mr Hayter aided and abetted Smiths to commit a breach of the Act of 1976 and a breach of the court orders which bound Smiths.” (emphasis added) 334. Similarly, Lord Nolan said at pp 472H‑473A: “ [E]ven in the case of a statute imposing criminal liability, and even without any express words to that effect, Parliament may be taken to have imposed a liability on an employer for the acts of his employees, provided that those acts were carried out in the course of the employment. Further, the liability may be imposed even though the acts in question were prohibited by the employer.” (emphasis added) and at pp 474G‑475E: “ A limited company, as such, cannot carry on business. It can only do so by employing human beings to act on its behalf. The actions of its employees, acting in the course of their employment, are what constitute the carrying on of business by the company. … It follows that, at any rate for the purposes of the Restrictive Trade Practices Act 1976, I am unable to accept that a prohibition at some senior level against the making of an agreement or arrangement which is ignored by the employees concerned is nonetheless sufficient to prevent the employing company from becoming a party to the agreement or arrangement when made. The Act is not concerned with what the employer says but with what the employee does in entering into business transactions in the course of his employment. The plain purpose of section 35(3) is to deter the implementation of agreements or arrangements by which the public interest is harmed, and the subsection can only achieve that purpose if it is applied to the actions of the individuals within the business organisation who make and give effect to the relevant agreement or arrangement on its behalf. This necessarily leads to the conclusion that if such an agreement is

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V found to have been made without the knowledge of the employer, any steps which the employer has taken to prevent it from being made will rank only as mitigation. Liability can only be escaped by completely effective preventive measures. How great a burden the devising of such measures will cast upon individual employers will depend upon the size and nature of the particular organisation. There are, of course, many areas of business life, not only in the consumer protection field, where it has become necessary for employers to devise strict compliance procedures. If the burden is in fact intolerable then the remedy must be for Parliament to introduce a statutory defence for those who can show that they have taken all reasonable preventive measures.” (emphasis added) 335. As Lord Hoffmann explained in Meridian at p 508G, the attribution rule in Pioneer Concrete was derived from a construction of the restriction by injunction or undertaking against the background of the Restrictive Trade Practices Act 1976: such restriction on corporations would be worth little if the company could avoid liability for what its employees had actually done by arguing that the board did not know about it. 336. The case therefore suggests that where an employee committed an act within the course of his employment that infringed a restriction against collusive agreement, an employer cannot avoid responsibility by relying on a prohibition on the employee against committing anti‑competitive acts generally or the specific infringing act in question. Hayter was a Unit Manager of Smiths with extensive responsibilities. From the findings made by the Restrictive Practices Court in that case50, one can see that there were six plant managers below him. He attended board meetings and made reports to the board. Although minimum prime gross margins were laid down for him, Hayter could intervene in pricing, he had a discretion in setting the target gross margin, he was in charge of the performance of the unit as a whole and of the individual plants within the unit and he generally had responsibility to

50 [1991] ICR 52, at 64‑66.

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V achieve results. His job specifications included “the efficient and profitable operation and control of all ready mixed concrete operations in the unit”. He had managerial responsibility for all of Smiths’ operations in the area covered by the agreement. He was nominally responsible for pricing (though in fact he did not intervene in pricing contracts), and for contracts and customer relations generally. His duties included meeting competitors. On this basis the court concluded that his participation in the prohibited agreements was an unauthorised mode of doing that which he was employed to do, i.e. to manage the unit, and that his attendance at the impugned meetings was in the course of his employment. 337. By referring to the scope or course of the employment, it seems to me that the House of Lords had in mind the kind of considerations relevant to the question of an employer’s vicarious liability for the tort of his employee. That was also the sense in which the phrase was used by the Restrictive Practices Court at first instance.51 Accordingly Pioneer Concrete does not support a purely temporal test that attaches liability to an employer simply on the basis that the act impugned was done during the employee’s working time. 338. As mentioned already, the Pioneer Concrete case was a decision under the Restrictive Trade Practices Act 1976, independent of EU competition law. Under the (UK) Competition Act 1998, s 60 of which seeks to ensure that the principles of competition law applied by the UK courts are consistent with those laid down by the CJEU, the approach in the UK is now aligned with that in EU law. In A H Willis and Sons Ltd v Office of Fair Trading [2011] CAT 13 at §§22‑26, the (UK) Competition Appeal Tribunal stated that following EU law, the relevant question under the (UK)

51 See [1992] ICR 52, 65D, 66G‑H.

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V Competition Act 1998 was whether the person who did the act was part of the undertaking, rather than whether the undertaking was liable upon the common law principles of ostensible authority or vicarious liability although these concepts could be useful by way of cross‑check. 339. In Tesco Stores Ltd v Office of Fair Trading [2012] CAT 31, which was concerned with concerted practices through the exchange of retail pricing intentions relating to cheeses, the (UK) Competition Appeal Tribunal held that the state of mind to be attributed to an undertaking should be determined as a matter of UK and, by virtue of s 60(2) of the 1998 Act, EU competition law, and that common law concepts of ostensible authority and vicarious liability are therefore “not relevant” (§60). The Tribunal went on to observe (at §62): “ In Suiker Unie, the Court of Justice stated, at paragraph 539, that employees form part of the same undertaking, or “economic unit”, with their employer. Employees are “auxiliary organs forming an integral part of the principal’s undertaking” (paragraph 542). It was on this basis that the Court of Justice attributed the employees’ collusive activities to their respective employers in the sugar industry. Since an undertaking comprising a body corporate can only act through the individuals employed by it, the acts or conduct of an undertaking are inevitably performed by those individuals. It follows that any act by any employee could, potentially, lead to an infringement attributable to their corporate employer, with whom they comprise the same undertaking.” (emphasis added) The Tribunal decided to proceed on the basis (at §74(a)) that: “ acts of any employee may be attributed to his or her corporate employer, with whom they comprise the same undertaking”. (emphasis added) 340. It should be noted, however, that on the facts of that case, there was no suggestion that any of the individuals in question “acted without authority or disobeyed instructions given to them” (§63). It should also be

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V noted that in the passages quoted above the Tribunal said “could, potentially, lead to” and “may be attributed to”. I do not read these passages as pronouncing a principle that employees’ acts, provided they were done during working hours, are inexorably attributable to the undertaking. (c) Australia 341. The question of attribution is expressly governed by statute in Australia. With regard to the attribution of conduct, the Competition and Consumer Act 2010 (Cth) provides in s 84(2) that:52 “ (2) Any conduct engaged in on behalf of a body corporate: (a) by a director, employee or agent of the body corporate within the scope of the person’s actual or apparent authority; or (b) by any other person at the direction or with the consent or agreement (whether express or implied) of a director, employee or agent of the body corporate, where the giving of the direction, consent or agreement is within the scope of the actual or apparent authority of the director, employee or agent; shall be deemed, for the purposes of this Act, to have been engaged in also by the body corporate.” Attribution of state of mind is governed by a similar provision in s 84(1). It can be seen that the Australian rule of attribution is, by statute, in part based on the common law concepts of actual and apparent authority. 342. By the time of closing submissions, SiS no longer relied on the Australian position, but BT submitted that the Australian approach was instructive. Reference was made in particular to Australian Competition and Consumer Commission v Leahy Petroleum (2004) FCA 1678 at §§99‑100 and

52 Formerly s 84 of the Trade Practices Act 1974.

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V the cases there cited which stated that, in determining whether an employee had relevant authority, it was not to the point to ask whether or not he had actual authority to enter into the particular unlawful transaction, but rather whether, in general, transactions of the sort in question were within the scope of his employment. 343. Although s 84(2) has been described as supplementing the common law position and not replacing it (see Australian Competition and Consumer Commission v Australian Safeway Stores Pty Ltd (No 3) [2001] FCA 1861), Australian cases have apparently focussed principally on the law of agency and not approached the matter as a question of finding a special rule of attribution: see Australian Competition and Consumer Commission v Prysmian Cavi E Sistemi SRL (No 12) [2016] FCA 822 at §§217‑229. For this reason the Australian jurisprudence on this question, whilst instructive, does not lend itself to direct application to the Ordinance. (d) United States 344. The antitrust law of the United States has adopted a comparable approach to the three jurisdictions considered above. In United States v Hilton Hotels Corp, 467 F 2d 1000 (9th Cir 1972), cert. denied, 409 US 1125 (1973), a hotel owner was prosecuted for violation of s 1 of the Sherman Act (15 USC §1) by agreeing with other hotels to prefer suppliers who paid money to help attract conventions to the City of Portland and not to purchase from suppliers who refused to pay. The company’s president testified that it would be contrary to the company’s policy for the manager of one of its hotels to condition purchases in that manner. The manager of the hotel in question and his assistant testified that it was the hotel’s policy to purchase supplies solely on the basis of price, quality, and service, and that they had told the hotel’s

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V purchasing agent to take no part in the boycott. The purchasing agent confirmed the receipt of these instructions, but admitted that, despite them, he had threatened a supplier with loss of the hotel’s business unless the supplier paid the contribution. He testified that he violated his instructions because of anger and personal pique toward the individual representing the supplier. 345. The US Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit stated that criminal liability for the acts of agents is more readily imposed under a statute directed at the prohibited act itself, one that does not make specific intent an element of the offence. This applies to the relevant offence under the Sherman Act since neither specific intent nor conscious wrongdoing is an element. The court stated: “ The breadth and critical character of the public interests protected by the Sherman Act, and the gravity of the threat to those interests that led to the enactment of the statute, support a construction holding business organizations accountable, as a general rule, for violations of the Act by their employees in the course of their businesses. In enacting the Sherman Act, ‘Congress was passing drastic legislation to remedy a threatening danger to the public welfare …’ United Mine Workers v. Coronado Coal Co, 259 U.S. 344, 392, 66 L. Ed. 975, 42 S. Ct. 570 (1922). The statute ‘was designed to be a comprehensive charter of economic liberty aimed at preserving free and unfettered competition as the rule of trade. It rests on the premise that the unrestrained interaction of competitive forces will yield the best allocation of our economic resources, the lowest prices, the highest quality and the greatest material progress, while at the same time providing an environment conducive to the preservation of our democratic political and social institutions.’ Northern Pacific Ry. v United States, supra, 356 U.S. at 4. With such important public interests at stake, it is reasonable to assume that Congress intended to impose liability upon business entities for the acts of those to whom they choose to delegate the conduct of their affairs, thus stimulating a maximum effort by owners and managers to assure adherence by such agents to the requirements of the Act. … In sum, identification of the particular agents responsible for a Sherman Act violation is especially difficult, and their conviction

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V and punishment is peculiarly ineffective as a deterrent. At the same time, conviction and punishment of the business entity itself is likely to be both appropriate and effective. For these reasons we conclude that as a general rule a corporation is liable under the Sherman Act for the acts of its agents in the scope of their employment, even though contrary to general corporate policy and express instructions to the agent.” (emphasis added) (6) Section 91 of the Ordinance 346. SiS submitted that the relatively strict approach to attribution adopted in the EU and UK should not be adopted in Hong Kong, because in those jurisdictions sanctions for anti‑competitive conduct may be imposed only on undertakings. Specifically, there is no provision there akin to s 91 of the Ordinance. This “key difference” means the case law in those jurisdictions is of limited value in Hong Kong, and that adoption of a less strict approach to attribution would not diminish the deterrent effect of the Ordinance. 347. To assess this submission it is necessary to examine the scope of the relevant provisions. I do so as briefly as possible because the application of s 91 does not directly arise in the present case and the Commission, whilst expressing “broad agreement” with SiS’s interpretation of that provision, has understandably refrained from advancing in detail any submissions on it, which is not free from difficulties. 348. Section 92 of the Ordinance provides that the Commission may apply for, and s 93 provides that the Tribunal may make, an order imposing a pecuniary penalty, not only on a person who has contravened a competition rule, but also a person who has been “involved in a contravention of a competition rule”. Section 91, which sets out the persons who are thus

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V involved, provides: “ A reference in this Part to a person being involved in a contravention of a competition rule means a person who— (a) attempts to contravene the rule; (b) aids, abets, counsels or procures any other person to contravene the rule; (c) induces or attempts to induce any other person, whether by threats or promises or otherwise, to contravene the rule; (d) is in any way, directly or indirectly, knowingly concerned in or a party to the contravention of the rule; or (e) conspires with any other person to contravene the rule.” 349. This provision, couched in language familiar in criminal law, is partly based on Australian legislation, incorporating elements of ss 75B and 76(1) of the Competition and Consumer Act 2010 (Cth),53 which are in turn derived from ss 5, 7A and 86 of the Crimes Act 1914 (Cth).54 350. SiS submitted that by targeting “persons” rather than “undertakings”, s 91 extends the net of liability to natural persons and corporations that either are not undertakings at all or, if they are undertakings, not the undertaking(s) liable for a primary violation of a competition rule. 351. SiS’s argument has to be premised on the notion that liability can be imposed on a person via s 91 independently of any contravention of a competition rule by an undertaking. Only if this is so can it be argued that the existence of s 91 “casts the net much wider” than regimes that only impose liability on undertakings.

53 The Competition and Consumer Act was called the Trade Practices Act 1974 (Cth) prior to 1 January 2011. 54 See Yorke v Lucas (1985) 158 CLR 661.

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V 352. It seems to me, however, that the premise is not entirely correct. First, s 91(b) and (d) concern accessorial liability, which is premised on a primary contravention of a competition rule, which can only be committed by an “undertaking”. As SiS accepted, proof of a contravention is logically necessary for liability under s 91(b) for aiding, abetting, counselling or procuring. 55 Likewise, SiS accepted that liability for being “knowingly concerned in or a party to the contravention of the rule” under s 91(d) and also under s 91(c) insofar as it refers to a person who induces another to contravene a competition rule, presupposes the existence of a “contravention”. 353. It follows, as SiS accepted, that if an undertaking is not liable because an employee’s acts are not attributed to it, then equally the employee cannot be held liable under s 91(b) and (d) for aiding and abetting or for being knowingly concerned in any contravention by that undertaking. Deterrence cannot be effected by imposing sanctions on the employee as an accessory of a non‑liable employer. 354. SiS offered two answers to this problem: first, that the employee can instead be made liable under s 91(a), (c) and (e), being forms of inchoate liability that, in its submission, do not depend on the existence of a primary contravention; secondly, the employee can be held liable as an accessory under s 91(b) and (d) in a contravention by an undertaking other than his employer.

55 It is unnecessary to discuss here whether under the Ordinance the primary “offender” has to have been held liable in proceedings. The Court of Final Appeal stated in Sze Kwan Lung v HKSAR (2004) 7 HKCFAR 475 at §19 that, under the common law principles of accessorial liability, in criminal proceedings “the person charged with aiding, abetting, counselling or procuring an offence can only be convicted if the principal offender, charged at the same trial, is found guilty of the relevant principal offence”. Contrast ACCC v Black on White Pty Ltd & Ors [2001] FCA 187 at §§46‑53, which suggests that it is only necessary for the court to make a finding that the principal offender has committed the contravention, and that the fact that the principal offender is a corporation which has been dissolved does not prevent an accessory from being found liable.

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V 355. Without going into details, it seems to me these “solutions” are themselves replete with difficulties. For example, as regards the first answer: (1) Can an employee be said to have attempted a contravention, or attempted to induce his employer to commit a contravention, in circumstances where the employer undertaking is not liable for any contravention? SiS submitted that liability for “inchoate” contravention such as attempting to contravene (s 91(a)) and attempting to induce another to contravene a competition rule (s 91(c)) does not depend on the existence of a primary contravention: ACCC v Australian Egg Corporation Ltd [2016] FCA 69 at §66.56 (2) However, the concept of “attempt to contravene” under s 91(a) seems to be targeted at an undertaking’s conduct that is more than merely preparatory to the commission of a contravention. It is doubtful if an employee of such an undertaking can be said to be responsible for attempting a contravention. (3) The concept of “attempt to induce any other person … to contravene” in s 91(c) seems equally inapt to an employee who has purported to act for his employer. It has been said by the Federal Court of Australia in Yorke v Lucas (1983) 80 FLR 143, 152 that “ Inducing a contravention in the context of para.75B(b) [of the Trade Practices Act 1974 (Cth)] connotes, in our view, some act of compulsion by force or threat of force or some act of persuasion or stimulation aimed at ensuring that an act is committed which constitutes a contravention. The word ‘incite’ is akin to ‘induce’, though ‘induce’ probably covers a wider field.

56 Upheld on appeal: [2017] FCAFC 152. Indeed, SiS submitted that liability for attempt cannot be established unless the actual substantive contravention has not been completed: Rogers v Arnott [1960] 2 QB 244.

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V ‘Incite’ is a word familiar to the criminal law and involves some deliberate act of rousing, stimulating, urging or spurring on: Young v. Cassels (1914) 33 N.Z.L.R. 852 per Stout, C.J. (at p.854).”57 (4) As for conspiracy to contravene a competition rule (s 91(e)), SiS submitted that, by analogy with s 159A of the Crimes Ordinance (Cap 200) 58 , conspiracy is an inchoate wrong that can be established even though no actual contravention of any competition rule exists. (5) But it is again difficult to see how the employee who has engaged in anti‑competitive conduct purportedly on behalf of the employer can be said to have conspired with the employer to contravene a competition rule. 356. As to SiS’s second answer, as can be illustrated with reference to the alleged facts of the present case, there are likewise problems with the notion that, even if SiS was held not to have contravened a competition rule, Shek could be held liable on the basis that he aided and abetted the contravention by the other respondents, or that he was knowingly concerned in, or a party to, such contravention, or that he conspired with Hung or Nutanix to contravene the first conduct rule. Shek’s entire involvement in the case was allegedly to submit a bid purportedly on behalf of SiS, at the request

57 On appeal, the High Court of Australia did not deal with the meaning of “induce”: (1985) 158 CLR 661. 58 Section 159A provides: “ (1) Subject to the following provisions of this Part, if a person agrees with any other person or persons that a course of conduct shall be pursued which, if the agreement is carried out in accordance with their intentions, either— (a) will necessarily amount to or involve the commission of any offence or offences by one or more of the parties to the agreement; or (b) would do so but for the existence of facts which render the commission of the offence or any of the offences impossible, he is guilty of conspiracy to commit the offence or offences in question.”

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V of Hung. If there was no agreement made by SiS, and therefore no liability on Nutanix for making an agreement with SiS, it is difficult to see how it can be said that Shek had aided and abetted some other contravention. It is also not straightforward, to say the least, to suggest that Shek conspired with Hung or Nutanix to contravene the first conduct rule under s 91(e), when Shek’s acts were, ex hypothesi, not attributable to SiS. 357. The task at hand is to devise a special rule of attribution based on the Meridian approach. That approach requires an exercise of statutory construction, taking into account the language, content and policy of the statute, to devise a rule that is workable for all instances where the statute applies, and not just on the facts in this particular case. 358. The tentative discussion above shows there must be a real concern that without attribution of conduct to undertakings, there can be no contravention by the undertaking in question, and that without a primary contravention, it is by no means clear that the employee can be held liable as a person involved in a contravention. Contrary to SiS’s argument, therefore, the accessory liability provisions in s 91 cannot “fill the gap” left by a lax rule of attribution. 359. Difficulties and complexities such as these militate against the suggestion that the legislature intended that the scope of attribution of acts to undertakings should be reduced because of the extension of liability to persons involved. I am unable to accept SiS’s assertion that the Ordinance would remain effective in the absence of attribution. Likewise I do not accept SiS’s submission in essence that there is a fundamental difference between the respective legal schemes such that the attribution rule in Hong Kong should be much narrower than that in the EU or the UK.

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V (7) Attribution for the first conduct rule 360. The essential policy aim of the first conduct rule is to deter anti‑competitive conduct relating to agreements, concerted practices and decisions of an association of undertakings. The deterrent effect is achieved primarily through the availability of financial sanctions under s 93, together with other orders under s 94 and Schedule 3. 361. The first conduct rule applies to and focusses on undertakings. The definition of “undertaking” in s 2(1) has been set out in §288 above. “Undertaking” is a key concept of EU competition law but it is a term unknown in other branches of Hong Kong law. In EU law employees are often regarded to be incorporated as part of an undertaking. They are distinguished from independent service providers who may be themselves functioning as undertakings. But no one has suggested that every act of an individual who is an employee of an undertaking is attributable to the undertaking. Neither the language of the first conduct rule nor that of the definition of “undertaking” sheds real light on the question as to when acts of an employee should be so attributed. 362. A fundamental consideration is the furtherance of the policy of the underlying rule which raises the question whether attribution is required to promote the policy of the substantive rule, and whether, if attribution is denied, that policy will be frustrated: see Moulin Global Eyecare Trading Ltd, §116. At the same time one must bear in mind the need for a proper balance between effectiveness in enforcement of competition law on the one hand, and avoiding hardship and injustice on the other hand.

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V 363. The approach the Commission primarily contends for is that an undertaking is responsible for the acts of its employees carried out during their employment which give rise to a contravention of the first conduct rule. SiS characterised this as the functional equivalent of absolute liability. Putting labels on one side, it is undeniably a strict approach which would hold an undertaking responsible so long as the acts in question were done while the employee was at work, irrespective of the responsibilities and authority normally conferred on that employee. This is illustrated by the Commission’s contention that SiS would be liable even where one of its messengers managed to submit a bid in its name stamped with the company chop. 364. While the question under consideration concerns the rules of attribution of conduct to undertakings, some assistance may be derived from the authorities on the imposition of strict liability cited by counsel, although in those cases the question was sometimes couched in terms of the requirement of mens rea, which is not apt in the present context. 365. In Reynolds v G H Austin & Sons [1951] 2 KB 135, 149‑150, Devlin J said: “ Thus a man may be made responsible for the acts of his servants, or even for defects in his business arrangements, because it can fairly be said that by such sanctions citizens are induced to keep themselves and their organizations up to the mark. … I think it a safe general principle to follow … that where the punishment of an individual will not promote the observance of the law either by that individual or by others whose conduct he may reasonably be expected to influence then, in the absence of clear and express words, such punishment is not intended.” 366. In a similar vein, in Lim Chin Aik v The Queen [1963] AC 160, 174, Lord Evershed, giving the Opinion of the Privy Council, said:

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V “ [I]t is not enough in their Lordships’ opinion merely to label the statute as one dealing with a grave social evil and from that to infer that strict liability was intended. It is pertinent also to inquire whether putting the defendant under strict liability will assist in the enforcement of the regulations. That means that there must be something he can do, directly or indirectly, by supervision or inspection, by improvement of his business methods or by exhorting those whom he may be expected to influence or control, which will promote the observance of the regulations. Unless this is so, there is no reason in penalising him, and it cannot be inferred that the legislature imposed strict liability merely in order to find a luckless victim.”59 367. In Hin Lin Yee v HKSAR (2010) 13 HKCFAR 142, Ribeiro PJ described certain situations when absolute liability might in principle be imposed. His Lordship considered that the imposition of absolute liability may have a justifiable utility in cases involving the statutory imposition of a duty on a person (which may be a corporate body) where the conduct or task which is the subject of the duty is in practice likely to be carried out by someone else, such as an employee or a contractor.60 The justifiable effect of imposing absolute liability in such circumstances is that it promotes proactive management and diligent supervision on his part to see that the duty is in fact being properly discharged. If the employer knows that he will be held to account, even without actual fault on his part, if his contractor or employee is slack or careless or incompetent on the job, he has every incentive to make sure that the job is properly done and to replace employees who are not up to the task.61

59 In the context of criminal liability in Hong Kong, Ribeiro PJ said in Hin Lin Yee v HKSAR (2010) 13 HKCFAR 142 at §151 that the principle should be supplemented by an additional condition, namely, that before concluding that the offence is one of absolute liability, the court should first determine whether the statutory purpose can sufficiently be met by construing the statute as creating an offence subject to the intermediate defence, which allows the accused to prove an exculpatory honest and reasonable belief on a balance of probabilities (see §136). 60 Hin Lin Yee, §156. 61 Hin Lin Yee, §158.

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V 368. I accept that anti‑competitive conduct is an issue of social concern and that the Ordinance has been enacted to address that concern and provide relevant regulation of economic activity for the public welfare. 369. The terms of the first conduct rule invite attention upon the economic activities of the undertaking in question and their impact on competition in Hong Kong. While s 91 extends the liability in applicable cases to relevant persons involved, it is undertakings that carry on economic activities and it is their conduct that may have the object or effect of preventing, restricting or distorting competition in Hong Kong. The statute deters such conduct by, inter alia, a pecuniary penalty on the person that constitutes the undertaking. The obligation is placed on the undertaking to provide effective preventive measures and to organise its affairs in such a way as to avoid infringements. 370. Undertakings often carry on their activities through employees. The business and economic activities of an undertaking are carried on by the actions of its employees, acting within the course of their employment. Holding undertakings liable for the acts of their employees in the course of their employment will serve to promote the objects of the statute by encouraging greater vigilance to prevent the commission of the prohibited acts. 371. The policy of the statute would be undermined if an undertaking is only liable for an employee’s acts that are specifically authorised by or known to senior management. Likewise, exonerating an employer simply on the basis that an employee’s anti-competitive conduct is contrary to or prohibited by the employer’s policies or instructions would allow the restriction placed on undertakings to be easily bypassed. As was pointed out in Pioneer Concrete, it would be fallacious to judge an undertaking simply by

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V what its management has said rather than by what its employees have done in the course of their employment. 372. But I do not consider that attributing all acts of all employees to an undertaking solely because they were done during the employees’ working hours is either just or necessary for the effective enforcement of competition law. There must be a sufficient connection between the acts of the employee in question and the undertaking so that the former can properly be regarded as part of the latter in the relevant context. Where the employer has put the employee in his position to do the kind of acts in question, it will often be fair to conclude that the employer has engaged in economic activity through the employee and is answerable for the manner in which the employee has conducted himself in that appointment. 373. The Commission, relying on BPB plc v Commission (see §327 above), submitted that effective implementation of the competition rules would be undermined if it was necessary to prove exactly which individual was responsible for the infringing act in the scope of his authority to act in that way. But BPB was a case where the undertaking argued that it was not liable because the employee in question, who was its CEO, had acted contrary to its instructions in continuing the information exchanges. In my respectful opinion, the court was not there making a general statement that competition law would be easily circumvented unless an undertaking is to be held liable for all the acts of all its employees done within their working hours without regard to any other circumstances.

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V (8) Application to the facts 374. Applying these principles to the facts of this case, should Shek be regarded as part of the undertaking, SiS, such that what he did on the morning of 18 July 2016 should be attributed to SiS? 375. As stated above, save for exceptional circumstances which did not apply here, SiS, as a distributor, did not compete in the market of supplying to end‑users such as YWCA. The highest the Commission put its case is that SiS was not prohibited by its contract with Nutanix from competing in the market for end‑users. Instead, SiS’s business was in the supply of products to resellers. It had never submitted a tender at the invitation of an end‑user. It was not within the job description of anyone in the company to be tendering in that market — lawfully or otherwise. On 6 July 2016, Priscilla Szeto had already decided that SiS would not take part in the second tender of YWCA. 376. It was not part of Shek’s general responsibility to deal with end- users or to submit tenders to them or to anyone else. Shek accepted he had no authority to commit SiS to liability even for a single dollar. He had no authority to set the price of any deal, even those within the business of SiS, whether upstream or down. As one of the Product Managers, his job involved liaising with upstream suppliers to obtain product information and passing it to the Sales Department for their discussion with resellers. He had no authority to sign any outgoing documents for SiS, which would require the approval of Raymond Au or other departments of SiS. Still less was it part of Shek’s job to agree with Hung to put in a bid in the name of SiS which was not intended to win the tender but simply to make up the numbers so as to facilitate a reseller’s bid for the contract.

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V 377. It boils down to a case where Shek, a relatively junior employee whose responsibility did not include submitting tenders, had gone rogue. Acting on his own, at the request of a vendor’s representative whom he felt obliged to obey, he submitted a dummy bid in a market in which SiS did not compete. He was not acting primarily with his employer’s interest in mind. Instead he concealed it from SiS. While Shek did the acts in question within his working hours, he was not acting in the course of his employment. He was not acting as part of SiS. (9) The Commission’s alternative case 378. The Commission’s alternative case is that there was a “sufficiently close connection” between Shek’s conduct and his employment with SiS or that Shek acted with the actual or ostensible authority of SiS, and that SiS should therefore be held liable for Shek’s conduct. For this case the Commission pleaded the following matters: (1) Shek was SiS’s Product Manager responsible for Nutanix products with responsibilities including the provision of product information to customers, conducting promotional activities and negotiating prices with vendors and customers. (2) Although distributors such as SiS would not generally sell products to end‑users directly, a distributor may in certain circumstances sell a product to an end‑user directly or participate in a tender submission. (3) The submission of ‘dummy” bids was a common practice in the IT industry in Hong Kong. (4) Shek was provided with access to SiS’s company chop and SiS’s tender was printed, signed and chopped by Shek at SiS’s office

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V during his working hours. Hung attended SiS’s office for this purpose. (5) Shek set out from SiS’s office to deposit the tenders at YWCA during his working hours. (6) Raymond Au and Joe Lam knew that Hung attended SiS’s office on 18 July 2016 and that Shek submitted a bid on behalf of SiS to “help” Hung. Neither of them raised any disapproval or questioned Shek’s authority to do so. (7) It was in the interests of SiS, as one of Nutanix’s two distributors in Hong Kong, to maintain good relations with Nutanix, otherwise its future business cooperation might be affected. 379. Based on my findings, it is plain that a number of these matters are not made out. (1) The first point is not wholly established in that even if Shek did negotiate prices, he was only authorised to provide provisional quotations to customers which were subject to approval by his seniors. (2) The second point is not made out because SiS would only supply to end‑users in exceptional circumstances which did not apply here, and SiS had never participated in any tender submissions of end‑users. (3) As to the third point, there is some evidence that the practice of submitting bids just to help make up the numbers happened from time to time. Priscilla Szeto accepted there was such practice. In June 2016 she had received an unsolicited email from a reseller, Basic Bit, about YWCA’s first tender, where the writer

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V anticipated that another reseller had already secured the deal registration and he (Basic Bit) wanted to see if he needed “to help to submit a higher bid” (emphasis added), which Szeto understood to involve bid‑rigging. I prefer her evidence when she said it was very likely that Raymond Au and Joe Lam knew that this sort of thing did occur, to their contrary evidence that they had never heard of it. While she disagreed with the suggestion that such practice happened “all the time” in the IT industry in Hong Kong, she accepted that anyone involved in the business must have been aware that it happened “from time to time”. There is no more detailed evidence, however, as to how prevalent this was in the IT industry in Hong Kong. (4) On the fourth point, it is established that the tender was printed, signed and chopped by Shek at SiS’s office during his working hours, but the way in which Shek came by the company chop was not sufficient to implicate anyone else in SiS: see §§305-309 above. (5) The fifth point is factually correct, but it should be noted that (i) Hung offered to reimburse Shek for the taxi fare; and (ii) Shek concealed the destination from SiS in his expense claim. (6) The sixth point is not made out on the evidence. (7) As for the seven point, as stated in §§310-314 above, I have found that Hung was in a position of ascendancy over Shek and that Shek was motivated by a desire to please Hung or avoid offending him. 380. On this basis, in my judgment the Commission’s alternative case against SiS also fails.

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V (10) Conclusion 381. For these reasons, the Commission has failed to establish that Shek’s conduct in relation to YWCA’s tender should be attributed to SiS. It follows that there was no relevant agreement made between Nutanix and SiS and that there was no contravention of the first conduct rule by either of them arising from the agreement between Hung and Shek.

J. ANTI‑COMPETITIVE OBJECT (1) General principles 382. As explained in section B(7) above, the Ordinance has adopted the same two‑prong structure as Art. 101(1) of the TFEU in prohibiting agreements that have the object or effect of restriction of competition in Hong Kong. If an agreement is a restriction by object, it is not necessary to consider its effects on competition: T‑Mobile, §§28 and 30; Cases C‑501/06 P etc GlaxoSmithKline Services and Others v Commission, EU:C:2009:610, §55. The Commission has in the present case only alleged that the relevant agreements infringed the first conduct rule “by object”. There is no effects case advanced. 383. The Commission submitted that the essential feature of a tendering process is the expectation on the part of the body calling for tenders that it will receive, as a response, a number of independently articulated bids formulated by contractors wholly independent of each other. The agreements

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V or concerted practices in the present case aimed to interfere with fundamental aspects of the tender process, leading to conditions of competition which do not correspond to normal market conditions. They were expressly intended to subvert the competitive nature of the tender process by leading YWCA to award the tender in the mistaken belief that there had been a genuine competition. Such arrangements, in the Commission’s submission, were by their nature harmful to competition and had the object of preventing, restricting or distorting competition in Hong Kong. 384. It is common ground that the leading EU authority on the approach to restriction by object is Case C-67/13P Groupement des cartes bancaires v Commission. That case concerned certain new rules proposed by a grouping of payment card issuers that required financial contribution from its members to finance the operating costs of the payment system and to avoid “free riding” by those which primarily issued cards but did little to ensure that merchants accepted the cards. The EU Commission and the General Court found that the rules constituted a restriction of competition by object, but the CJEU disagreed and remitted the case for consideration of the effects of the rules. The key holdings in that case include: (1) Certain types of coordination between undertakings reveal a sufficient degree of harm to competition for the examination of their effects to be considered unnecessary. This arises from the fact that certain forms of coordination between undertakings can be regarded, by their very nature, as being injurious to the proper functioning of normal competition: see §§49‑50. (2) The essential test for an object restriction is whether such coordination reveals in itself a sufficient degree of harm to competition: §57.

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V (3) In order to determine whether an agreement or concerted practice constitutes a restriction by object, regard must be had to the content of its provisions, its objectives and the economic and legal context of which it forms part. When determining that context, it is also necessary to take into consideration the nature of the goods or services affected, as well as the real conditions of the functioning and structure of the market or markets in question: see §53. (4) Although the parties’ intention is not a necessary factor in determining whether an agreement or concerted practice is restrictive, there is nothing prohibiting that factor from being taken into account: see §54. (5) The General Court was wrong in that case to find that the concept of restriction must not be interpreted “restrictively”. The concept of restriction of competition “by object” can be applied only to certain types of coordination between undertakings which reveal a sufficient degree of harm to competition that it may be found that there is no need to examine their effects: see §58. 385. The decision in Cartes Bancaires was subsequently applied by the Grand Chamber of the CJEU in Case C‑179/16 F. Hoffmann‑La Roche Ltd v Autorità Garante della Concorrenza e del Mercato, where it was held that an agreement between Roche and Novartis for the dissemination of misleading information to prevent the off‑label use of the lower‑priced product Avastin (marketed by Roche) in order to favour the sales of the higher-priced product Lucentis (marketed by Novartis) could be regarded as a restriction of competition by object.

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V 386. Whilst the CJEU referred in the case law to “types” of coordination, there is no exhaustive list of the categories of agreements that have the object of restriction of competition. As noted in Whish and Bailey, Competition Law (9th ed), p 131, the content of the “object box” is not capable of precise definition. Agreements not of a kind considered before may yet be found to be restrictive by object upon a proper assessment in light of their own content and context. 387. An agreement may be found to have an anti‑competitive object even if it also pursues legitimate aims. Thus in Case C‑209/07 Competition Authority v Beef Industry Development Society Ltd, the CJEU held that even if the parties to an agreement acted without any subjective intention of restricting competition but with the object of remedying the effects of a crisis in their sector, their agreement could still be found to have the object of restricting competition.62 In Cartes Bancaires, the CJEU held that the fact that the proposed new rules pursued the legitimate object of combatting “free riding” did not preclude their being regarded as having an object restrictive of competition.63 In Hong Kong, the Ordinance, by s 7(1), makes clear it is sufficient if one of the objects of an agreement is to prevent, restrict or distort competition. 388. Where it is alleged that an agreement has the effect of restricting competition, it is necessary to assess what the competitive position on the relevant market would have been in the absence of the alleged restrictive agreement — commonly referred to as the “counterfactual”, and to compare it with the position in the “actual” world: Case 56/65 Société Technique Minière v Maschinenbau Ulm GmbH [1966] ECR 235; Case T‑328/03 O2 (Germany)

62 See §21. 63 See §70.

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V GmbH v Commission, EU:T:2006:116, §§68‑73. Whilst in an “object” assessment the agreement has to be seen in its context, the whole point of prohibiting an object restriction is to avoid the need for an effects investigation. The requisite assessment for an object case is therefore to be distinguished from an effects investigation based on an extensive market analysis, which is not required for an assessment of the existence of a restriction by object. Nor is it necessarily required in such cases to define the market: see Whish & Bailey, Competition Law (9th ed), pp 28 & 121. 389. The agreement need not have been implemented in order for it to have an anti‑competitive object. This is clear from the wording of s 6(1)(a) of the Ordinance, which requires an undertaking not to “make” or “give effect to” an agreement. “Making” an agreement with an anti‑competitive object will contravene the first conduct rule, even if it is not given effect to. 390. Further, as the Commission submitted, in order for an agreement to be regarded as having an anti-competitive object, it is sufficient that it has the potential to have a negative impact on competition. As the CJEU held in Case C‑32/11 Allianz Hungária Biztosító Zrt and Others v Gazdasági Versenyhivatal, EU:C:2013:160, §38: “ … in order for the agreement to be regarded as having an anti- competitive object, it is sufficient that it has the potential to have a negative impact on competition, that is to say, that it be capable in an individual case of resulting in the prevention, restriction or distortion of competition within the internal market. Whether and to what extent, in fact, such an effect results can only be of relevance for determining the amount of any fine and assessing any claim for damages …” The emphasis in Allianz on potential impact is not inconsistent with Cartes Bancaires. The former case was cited in the latter. The focus of enquiry in an object case is not the concrete actual effects of an agreement as implemented

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V but the agreement’s potential effect on competition. It was in this context that the CJEU in Cartes Bancaires referred to a sufficient degree of harm to competition. 391. It is common ground that whether certain conduct falls within the definition of “serious anti‑competitive conduct” in the Ordinance and whether it contravenes the first conduct rule are distinct questions (see section L(1) below), with the latter turning on whether the Commission can establish that the conduct has the object or effect of restricting, preventing or distorting competition. (2) Content and context of the agreements 392. The agreements or concerted practices between (i) Nutanix and BT, (ii) Nutanix, BT and Innovix, and (iii) Nutanix and Tech‑21, have been set out in sections E, G and H above. As the Commission submitted, the whole point of the exercise was to mislead YWCA into awarding the tender under the mistaken belief that there had been a genuine competitive tender process. 393. It is relevant first to remind oneself what a tendering process is about. In Apex Asphalt and Paving Co Ltd v Office of Fair Trading [2005] CAT 4, there were concerted practices between contractors in relation to the making of bids for a tender for flat roofing contracts. Apex supplied figures to another tender invitee (Briggs) for a cover bid to be put in by Briggs for certain contracts (though Briggs in fact did not submit a tender). In relation to another set of contracts, Apex received the tender documents but decided not to carry out a full estimating exercise because the product specification gave a price advantage to another firm (Howard Evans) who, Apex knew, was likely

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V to bid, and also because of Apex’s own workload. Apex contacted Howard Evans for a cover price. Howard Evans provided prices to Apex who then bidded at those prices. Howard Evans won the tender. Dismissing the appeal from the decision of the Office of Fair Trading that Apex was liable for concerted practices with the object of restricting competition, the UK Competition Appeal Tribunal held: “ 208. The essential feature of a tendering process conducted by a local authority is the expectation on the part of the authority that it will receive, as a response to its tender, a number of independently articulated bids formulated by contractors wholly independent of each other. A tendering process is designed to produce competition in a very structured way. 209. The importance of the independent preparation of bids is sometimes recognised in tender documentation by imposing a requirement on the tenderers to certify that they have not had any contact with each other in the preparation of their bids. This is important from the standpoint of the customer, since the tendering process is designed to identify the contractor that is prepared to make the most cost-effective bid. The competitive tendering process may be interfered with if the tenders submitted are not the result of individual economic calculation but of knowledge of the tenders by other participants or concertation between participants. Such behaviour by undertakings leads to conditions of competition which do not correspond to the normal conditions of the market.” (emphasis added) 394. The notion that bids should be independently articulated finds support also in EU law. In Case T‑29/92 SPO v Commission, §119, the EU Court of First Instance stated that consultation by contractors regarding the manner in which they intend to respond to an invitation to tender is incompatible with Art. 85(1) of the TFEU, and that it is for each contractor to determine independently his conduct in the tender. This reflects the fundamental principle of competition law that “each economic operator must determine independently the policy which he intends to adopt on the … market”: Case 40/73 Suiker Unie v Commission, §173.

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V 395. The facts of both Apex and SPO concern horizontal contacts between potential bidders but the principle is in my view not confined to that setting. The topic of vertical and horizontal agreements will be further discussed below. 396. Nevertheless, whether an agreement or concerted practice has an anti-competitive object depends on a proper analysis of the agreement and the facts of the case. The nature of a tendering process does not warrant any presumption of anti-competitive object simply because the conduct impugned involves interference with that process by the submission of bids that have not been independently articulated. 397. In terms of the economic and legal context of their agreements, it is true that YWCA had selected a very specific brand of product, Nutanix’s hyper‑converged system (with three possible hardware combinations). Nevertheless, there is no suggestion that BT was the only entity capable of supplying this system. It could have been supplied by the other bidders in the second tender, or the sole bidder in the third tender, or by direct purchase. In other words, there was still actual and potential competition in the supply of this product, which would be precluded by the agreements if successfully implemented. If YWCA had only received BT’s bid in the second tender, it would have had decisions to make as to what to do next, on the basis of the true conditions of the market. The objective purpose of the respondents’ agreements was to interfere with that process, and to lead YWCA to believe it had received additional genuine bids and to award the tender on that mistaken basis. 398. The respondents also submit that YWCA had a close pre‑existing relationship with BT, which had successfully carried out the proof-of-concept

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V exercise. It does not follow, however, that YWCA would have chosen BT irrespective of the content or price of the other bids received. In fact, in spite of YWCA’s favourable experience with BT at the time, it decided to procure the Nutanix system through a competitive tender. There is no basis to suggest that the whole tendering process was intended to be a charade. Although Lok had a close working relationship with Percy Ng and Chan and had some influence in the procurement decision especially on the technical side, I do not think he would, or would be able to, dictate BT be chosen even if that was not supported by the outcome of the tendering process. It is to be recalled that despite BT was the consultant to YWCA on procuring a Customer Relationship Management system, it was eventually outbidden in the tender for the implementation of the system in late 2014 or 2015 (see §89 above). 399. Reliance has been placed by the respondents on the terms and conditions of the tender. It is said that not only was there no requirement for bidders to certify that they had not had contact with each other in the preparation of the bids, there was a statement in YWCA’s “Request for Support from Principal” that it “respects the existing mechanism of the IT industry, particularly the business collaboration arrangements made between IT manufacturers (principals) and their tiers of the intermediary agents (distributors/dealers)”. In my judgment, this cannot sensibly be read as indicating that YWCA expected there to be direct or indirect contact between bidders or expected there to be arrangements to provide non‑genuine bids just to meet its requirement of a minimum number of bids. On the contrary, in that letter YWCA made clear that it had not appointed any company to be its “exclusive order fulfilment partner” and that YWCA wanted “a fair-game tender exercise”. The requirement of a minimum of five bids shows that YWCA viewed as important the existence of genuine competition in its procurement exercises.

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V 400. The respondents also submitted that there was little competition for the supply of the Nutanix system to YWCA. In particular, only one response (from BT) was received in the first tender, showing that the invitees did not find it a particularly attractive opportunity. However, a tender can generate competition, by way of inviting competing bids from different bidders, which might otherwise be absent. The agreements in question were intended to bring the tendering and procurement process to an end, which had the potential effect of preventing further competition from being canvassed. After the second tender, Nutanix supplied a list of 41 firms that were its authorised sellers or partners, from which YWCA selected 17 firms (including the 2nd to 5th respondents) to be invited to take part in the third tender. As it happened, there was in fact one response (from IT Channel (Asia) Ltd) in the third tender. Eventually the contract was awarded by direct contact with Dell and a retailer CriticMission Data Ltd. This shows that while the level of interest in YWCA’s business was low, it cannot be said there was no potential or actual competition. BT was far from being the only possible supplier. 401. The respondents submitted that any coordination found could not have caused harm to competition if there was no competition to be restricted in the first place. The principle is recognised by the Commission, which stated in its Guideline on the First Conduct Rule (at §3.11): “ In examining the relevant context for an agreement, the following factors may show that an agreement does not have the object of harming competition: … (b) an examination of the relevant context reveals that at the relevant time there is in fact no competition in the market to be harmed; …”

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V 402. However, as stated above, it cannot be said here that competition was non‑existent. The cases relied upon by the respondents concern very different facts. In Bookmakers’ Afternoon Greyhound Services Ltd v Amalgamated Racing Ltd [2009] EWCA Civ 750, until 2007 the off‑course bookmakers had in place an arrangement to pay a distributor (formed by bookmakers) for the right to show live pictures of horseracing in LBO (licensed betting offices). From 2007 onwards, a number of racecourses formed a joint venture which would serve as a new distributor through another broadcasting channel. The racecourses licensed their own LBO media rights to the joint venture at higher prices. The bookmakers argued that the creation of the joint venture and its entry into the market was the result of an anti‑competitive agreement among the racecourses. However, the pre‑existing two‑sided market was one of a monopoly purchaser of broadcasting rights from racecourses and a monopoly supplier to LBOs. The new arrangements actually had the potential to increase competition in the market. It was in that context that the Court of Appeal (at §92) accepted the argument that there was no competition to be restricted in the first place. In contrast, in the present case, as explained above BT was by no means a monopolistic supplier of Nutanix products. 403. Case T‑374/94 European Night Services Ltd v Commission, EU:T:1998:198 concerned agreements by which ENS was formed by French, Dutch, German and British railway undertakings for the purpose of providing overnight Channel Tunnel passenger rail services as well as agreements by which ENS acquired certain services including traction, cleaning services and passenger‑handling services. The EU Commission concluded they restricted competition by effects, taking the view that there was potential competition among the parent undertakings or between them and ENS. The EU Court of

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V First Instance disagreed, noting that given the prohibitive cost of the investment required and the fact that there were no economies of scale in the operation of a single route, it would be unrealistic to postulate potential competition among parent undertakings and between them and ENS. Further, following publication of a Commission’s notice inviting interested parties to make representations, no third parties took any steps to submit representations as a potential competitor capable of being affected by the implementation of the agreements in question.64 It can readily be seen that the facts are quite different from those of the present case. (3) Deal registration system 404. A related point raised by the respondents is that because of the deal registration in place, BT would be able to benefit from a substantial discount from Nutanix and was therefore in an “unassailable” position to win the tender, or at least that was what Chan believed. 405. There is no doubt BT enjoyed certain advantages, but I do not find that it was, or that Chan understood it to be, in an unassailable position to win. The fact that BT (via Dell) had a deal registration with Nutanix in place for the second tender does not mean that there could be no competition for the tender. The discount BT could expect applied to the Nutanix software component of the integrated solution, and was not precisely quantified in evidence. Chan understood that only part of the discount obtained by Dell from Nutanix would be passed on to BT. The cost of the Nutanix software was only part of the bid price; the cost of the hardware component and the reseller’s own mark-up on both components would constitute the other parts. As an illustration, in relation to YWCA’s eventual purchase of the Dell-

64 See §§144-145.

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V Nutanix solution from CriticMission Data Ltd in November 2016, out of the total contract price of HK$[●], Nutanix received US$[●] net. Although YWCA had a preference for the Dell-Nutanix solution, it had specifically discussed with BT to ensure that all three types (Dell-Nutanix, Lenovo- Nutanix and Nutanix-NX) were capable of meeting YWCAs’s needs. A non‑deal‑registered reseller may be able to quote a low and competitive price if it is prepared to take a lower margin or is able to save costs in other aspects, which was accepted by Siu. If the exercise was purely meant to encourage a few other resellers or distributors to bid, Chan would not have needed to send Hung BT’s bid prices, and Hung would not have said to his colleagues he was assisting “to make sure Dell win the deal”65 and to Siu that they were to “help BT to bid for Dell deal”. There are also other factors apart from price which an end-user may consider when choosing a reseller, whose importance increases as the price difference decreases. Chan’s own evidence suggests that it was only if the received bids were “very close” in price that he was confident BT would win even if its bid was not the lowest. 406. Further, the fact that a particular bidder has a cost or other advantage does not mean that there is no restriction of competition if it enters into agreements with its supplier or other potential bidders to procure non- genuine bids and further enhance its prospects of success. In Apex Asphalt, Apex provided a cover bid precisely because (in part) it considered Howard Evans had a price advantage and was likely to bid. The fact that Howard Evans’s bid would have been successful even without Apex’s cover bid was not a defence, but simply a matter for mitigation.66

65 See §223 above for the context and meaning of that email. 66 See §263.

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V 407. The same point applies to the respondents’ argument that there was also no commercial rationale for BT to engage in bid‑rigging, because it already had a long‑standing relationship with YWCA and was therefore the favoured supplier for the Nutanix product anyway. As its own experience shows, even where it had been appointed by YWCA as the consultant for the CRM system, it did not succeed in the bid to implement the system. (4) No inflated price 408. Nutanix submitted that the agreements did not contain “typical” features of bid‑rigging, the first of which is increased or controlled pricing. Similarly, Innovix argued that the Commission must advance a theory of harm which is likely to result from the agreements explaining how they had, or were likely to have, an appreciable adverse impact on the parameters of competition such as price, output, product quality, product variety and innovation (citing the Guidelines on the Application of Article 81(3) issued by the EU Commission, at §§15‑16). 409. In my view, as Nutanix recognised, price inflation may be a common or typical feature of bid‑rigging, but it is by no means a necessary ingredient of a restriction by object or bid-rigging. Cover pricing 67, for example, does not necessarily involve any price increase or contribute to the fixing of the price eventually charged to the purchaser, but is generally regarded as an infringement of competition law. The absence of price

67 In Kier Group plc v Office of Fair Trading [2011] CAT 3 at §3, the UK Competition Appeal Tribunal explained that “simple” cover pricing occurs “where one of those invited to tender for a construction contract (Company A) does not wish to win the contract, but does not want to indicate its lack of interest to the client, for whose work it may wish to be invited to tender in the future. Company A therefore seeks a cover price from another company which is tendering for that contract (Company B). Company B will be seeking to win the contract and will have reached a view as to its own tender price. Indeed it may already have submitted its own tender to the client. The cover price which it provides to Company A will be at a level sufficiently high to ensure that Company A does not win. This price is submitted to the client by Company A as though it is a genuine tender. It should be noted that Company B does not reveal its own tender price to Company A – the cover price is an inflated price.”

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V inflation in BT’s second bid relative to the first is a matter of mitigation in BT’s favour, but it does not exonerate it from responsibility for contravention of the first conduct rule. 410. By considering whether there is evidence of increased or controlled pricing, one strays into an inquiry into the effects of the agreement. Yet restrictions by object reveal a sufficient degree of harm to competition in themselves, so that “there is no need to examine their effects”: Cartes Bancaires, at §49. The Guidelines on the Application of Article 81(3) referred to by Innovix actually the efficiency defence found in Art. 101(3) of the TFEU (the equivalent of s 1 of Schedule 1 to the Ordinance). In the Guidelines on the applicability of Article 101 to horizontal co-operation agreements (2011/C 11/01) issued by the EU Commission, it is under the section on “Restrictive effects on competition” that the discussion on the parameters of competition is located: “ 27. For an agreement to have restrictive effects on competition within the meaning of Article 101(1) it must have, or be likely to have, an appreciable adverse impact on at least one of the parameters of competition on the market, such as price, output, product quality, product variety or innovation. Agreements can have such effects by appreciably reducing competition between the parties to the agreement or between any one of them and third parties …” (emphasis added) 411. The vice of such practice as found in the present case is in its harm to competition. The concrete negative effects of these practices (if successfully implemented) can take various forms: see Apex Asphalt, at §251; Kier Group plc v Office of Fair Trading [2011] CAT 3, at §§95‑99. It is not necessary for the Commission to prove that YWCA suffered or would have suffered actual financial detriment in order to establish an infringement. To find an anti‑competitive object, it is generally not necessary to show that an

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V agreement entailed disadvantages for final consumers: Bellamy & Child, European Union Law of Competition (8th ed), §2.160. As the Commission submitted, the first conduct rule, in line with Art. 101 of the TFEU, should be interpreted as being intended to protect, among other things, the structure of competition. In Joined Cases C‑501/06P etc GlaxoSmithKline Services Unlimited v Commission, a case concerning parallel trade, the CJEU held (at para 63): “ First of all, there is nothing in that provision to indicate that only those agreements which deprive consumers of certain advantages may have an anti-competitive object. Secondly, it must be borne in mind that the Court has held that, like other competition rules laid down in the Treaty, Article 81 EC aims to protect not only the interests of competitors or of consumers, but also the structure of the market and, in so doing, competition as such. Consequently, for a finding that an agreement has an anti‑competitive object, it is not necessary that final consumers be deprived of the advantages of effective competition in terms of supply or price (see, by analogy, T- Mobile Netherlands and Others, cited above, paragraphs 38 and 39).” The same principle was repeated by the CJEU in Case C-286/13P Dole Food Company Inc v Commission ECLI:EU:C:2015:184 at §125 which was decided after Cartes Bancaires. 412. The focus on increased or controlled pricing misapprehends the essence of a tender which is a structured competitive process. The conduct in question is aimed at distorting that process. (5) No quid pro quo 413. Nutanix submitted that another typical feature of bid‑rigging is a trade‑off or quid pro quo for the other participants who, it is agreed, would not win the tender in question, and that there is no evidence of any quid pro quo for SiS, Innovix and Tech‑21 in this case. In my view, however, while a quid

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V pro quo is a common element in this kind of cases, it is not a necessary component for such an arrangement to be found a restriction of competition by object. Its absence may be a matter relevant to the plausibility of the agreement or to mitigation, but not to the question whether the agreement, if established, was a contravention by object. 414. Two cases were referred to by Nutanix: Kier Group and Case C‑440/11P Commission v Gosselin EU:C:2013:514. Kier Group involved both “simple” cover price cases, as well as infringements that involved compensation payments to the cover bidders. It was an appeal against penalties only which means there was no dispute that even “simple” cover price cases were a contravention. The cases involving compensation payments were considered by the Office of Fair Trading to be more serious than “simple” cover pricing, thereby meriting a higher starting point for the calculation of the appropriate penalty. There is nothing in the case, however, to suggest that quid pro quo was a necessary element of liability. 415. In Gosselin, the cartel was alleged to have taken various forms: agreement on prices, agreement on cover quotes and agreement on commissions (financial compensation for losing bids, ie quid pro quo). The General Court noted that this system was “based on the concept of quid pro quo, insofar as each undertaking which paid a commission or issued a cover quote expected to be able, in the future, to benefit itself from that system and obtain commissions or cover quotes. Therefore… those arrangements were ad hoc but displayed a link of complementarity”.68 The court, however, simply

68 Cases T-208/08 and T-212/08 Team Relocations NV v European Commission at §52.

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V analysed each agreement separately, finding each to be a restriction by object, without relying on the quid pro quo as a necessary constituent.69 416. Reciprocity may make agreements such as bid-rigging a repeated, systemic problem but it is not required as an element for liability in an individual case. There is nothing to prevent a one-off agreement, done simply as a favour, from being anti-competitive by object. (6) Vertical vs horizontal 417. On this Tribunal’s findings, the agreements in question, with the exception of the trilateral agreement between Nutanix, BT and Innovix, are each a bilateral agreement between a reseller and its supplier. The first conduct rule does not distinguish in terms between horizontal and vertical agreements, and in principle applies to any agreement irrespective of whether it is horizontal or vertical. It may be noted in this connection that the legislature has chosen not to exclude vertical agreements from the scope of the first conduct rule, in contrast to Singapore’s Competition Act which does exclude vertical agreements from the equivalent prohibition.70 418. Having said that, it is right to point out that in general, horizontal agreements are viewed by competition law with much greater vigilance and suspicion than vertical agreements, though it would be mistaken to think that

69 §§91-93. 70 Section 8 of the Third Schedule to the Competition Act provides that the section 34 prohibition shall not apply to any vertical agreement, other than such vertical agreement as may be specified by the responsible Minister. For this purpose, “vertical agreement” is defined to mean “any agreement entered into between 2 or more undertakings each of which operates, for the purposes of the agreement, at a different level of the production or distribution chain, and relating to the conditions under which the parties may purchase, sell or resell certain goods or services and includes provisions contained in such agreements which relate to the assignment to the buyer or use by the buyer of intellectual property rights, provided that those provisions do not constitute the primary object of the agreement and are directly related to the use, sale or resale of goods or services by the buyer or its customers”.

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V vertical agreements can never be held to have an anti‑competitive object. It depends on their specific content and context. 419. It is not in dispute that vertical discussions between the supplier and downstream undertakings such as a distributor or retailer concerning retail pricing do not in themselves contravene Art. 101 of the TFEU or the UK Chapter 1 prohibition. As stated by the UK Competition Appeal Tribunal in Makers UK Ltd v Office of Fair Trading [2007] CAT 11, §99: “ A simple disclosure of retail pricing information by a retailer to a supplier cannot be treated, without more, as an agreement to fix the retail price.” 420. Likewise, in Argos Ltd v Office of Fair Trading [2006] EWCA Civ 1318 at §106, Lloyd LJ, giving the judgment of the court, stated: “ Mr Lasok submitted that the Tribunal’s decision in the Football Shirts case has caused uncertainty in commercial circles, casting doubt on freedom of discussion on a vertical basis, above all between manufacturers and their principal customers, in relation to matters which both parties need reasonably to be able to discuss, including actual or likely retail prices, profit margins and wholesale prices or terms of sale. It seems to us that the present decision, and that of the Tribunal, ought not to be seen as casting any cloud of illegality over such discussions, so long as they are conducted on a bilateral basis and limited to discussions of the nature described …” (emphasis added) 421. In the case of a tender, as the respondents have submitted, there may be nothing anti‑competitive in a supplier requesting its customers to bid in a tender held by an end‑user and in such customers speaking individually to the supplier about costs or as to the level of their bids. If that is all there is, little competition law concern would be raised.

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V 422. But that is not the present case. The agreement between Chan and Hung was not about BT’s pricing or other parameters of BT’s bid, but about what Hung should procure other distributors or resellers to do in the second tender, thus taking on a horizontal dimension. The purpose of their agreement was that Hung would find four friends to put in a dummy bid each so as to ensure there were five bids in the second tender, in order to meet YWCA’s requirement so that the second tender would be valid and BT would win. In connection with this agreement Chan provided BT’s own bid prices to Hung, and Hung prepared four bids for SiS, Innovix, Tech‑21 and iCON respectively which he was certain would lose. 423. Equally the agreement between Hung on the one hand and Steve Ng on the other was not about “matters which both parties need reasonably to be able to discuss, including actual or likely retail prices, profit margins and wholesale prices or terms of sale”71, but about submitting a non- genuine bid for Hung’s purposes. Indeed it was the absence of any discussion of those things they should normally need to discuss that, inter alia, shows the non-genuineness of the bid. The objective aim of the agreement between Hung and Steve Ng was to put in a non-genuine bid in the name of Tech‑21 to help make up the numbers so as to meet the tender requirement for it to be valid. Hung of course knew more but Steve Ng knew or intended that the bid had been prepared by Hung at prices without input from Tech-21, was submitted purely as a favour to Hung, was not intended to win and would not win, but was intended to be taken by YWCA as genuine and to create a false impression for YWCA that there was an independent genuine bid from Tech- 21 competing in the tender.

71 per Lloyd LJ in Argos Ltd as quoted above.

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V 424. It should be noted that in Argos, the Court of Appeal went on in the same paragraph as the passage quoted above to state: “ … As the Tribunal said, there is a risk that discussions about possible prices, or about historic prices, can tend towards discussion of future prices, and agreement as to what they should be. Any party to such discussions on a vertical basis needs to be aware of that risk and to avoid it. But this case is not about such discussions at all. Nor does it outlaw complaints by a wholesale customer to its supplier in general, especially if they are directed at getting better terms for the business between those two parties. In the present case the complaints did not have that aim, and the discussions between manufacturer and customer had a strong and unusual context which makes it clear that there was a horizontal element in the subject of discussion. That is what makes what happened in the present case a breach of the Chapter I prohibition.” (emphasis added) 425. In my view the Commission is correct to submit that, consistently with Art. 101 of the TFEU, the first conduct rule is to be interpreted as applying “to all agreements and concerted practices which, in either horizontal or vertical relationships, distort competition …, irrespective of the market on which the parties operate, and … only the commercial conduct of one of the parties need be affected by the terms of the arrangements in question”: Case C‑194/14P AC Treuhand v Commission, §35. 426. It was submitted that in a bidding context, a bilateral vertical agreement has no effect on competition because it only has the effect of affecting the behaviour of that single retailer in question, without any impact on the behaviour of other bidders. It was said that either the tender would be successful and result in the award of the project to other bidders “whose actions were completely independent of and unaffected by this single agreement”, or the tender would be unsuccessful on the basis that, if the non- genuine bid were to be discounted, there would not be sufficient bids to meet the minimum requirement.

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V 427. I agree with the Commission that this argument misses the point. A bilateral vertical agreement to submit a non‑genuine bid in a tender process solely for the purpose of meeting the requirement of a minimum number of bids for the tender to be effective had, at the very least, the potential to result in the tender being awarded by the procurer in the false belief that it had in fact received the necessary number of genuine bids. The agreement is as such aimed at distorting the competitive process and preventing any further potential competition. In this particular context, the impact on competition occurs whether the submission of a dummy bid has resulted from a vertical or a horizontal agreement. 428. As to the trilateral agreement among Nutanix, BT and Innovix, it was clearly horizontal as between BT and Innovix, who were bidders or potential bidders in the second tender. The aim of the agreement was to put in a dummy bid in the name of Innovix to help make up the numbers so as to satisfy the tender requirement and so that BT would validly win the tender. As already explained, Hung and Chan knew more but Siu knew or intended that the bid had been prepared at prices without input from Innovix, was solely to help BT to win, was not itself intended to win and would not win, but was intended to be treated by YWCA as a genuine bid. (7) Subjective intentions 429. It was argued by Nutanix and BT that they merely intended to assist YWCA to meet its internal requirement for five bids, so that the second tender would not be abortive. However, this subjective intention, even if accepted, does not itself mean that the object of the agreements was not to prevent, restrict or distort competition.

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V 430. Determining whether an agreement has an anti‑competitive object is an objective exercise. The subjective intentions of the parties, while potentially relevant, are not determinative. The concept of a restriction by object does not presuppose that the parties to an agreement have the subjective intention of restricting competition, or even that they have actually considered the effect of their conduct on competition. 431. Agreements can be restrictive of competition by object even if the parties are able to show that restricting competition was not their aim or primary aim, or that they had other laudable motives: see Beef Industry Development Society cited in §387 above. 432. Likewise, it was argued in Apex Asphalt that the object of putting in the cover bids was to avoid the procuring entities “looking unkindly” on the parties who were invited to bid but failed to put in a bid, lest that they would not be invited on the next occasion. The Tribunal held that this explanation did not absolve Apex of liability. The subjective intentions of a party are immaterial where the obvious consequence of the conduct is to prevent, restrict or distort competition.72 433. In any event I do not accept that the parties were solely motivated by a desire to help YWCA. Plainly an abortive second tender would lead to further uncertainty not welcome to BT or Nutanix. Their cooperation with the help of Hung’s friends would substantially eliminate this uncertainty. In his interview by the Commission, Chan said he was concerned that if the second tender was not successful, there might be a third tender, and that BT might not be able to participate as “no company can afford to do one bid 3 times”. 73

72 See §§248-249. 73 Chan’s interview record, §§1647-1654.

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V Chan also said Hung’s friends were “doing this to help Thomas to close the deal. Because if we are stuck, Thomas is stuck. That means we can’t buy anything from Thomas, right. So everyone just at the same place, we’re not moving forward”.74 It is also to be recalled that Hung announced in his internal email on 8 July 2016 that Nutanix assisted “to make sure Dell75 win the deal”, and that he stated in his email to Siu on 18 July 2016 that what they were doing was to “help BT to bid for Dell deal”. 434. On the evidence, an examination of the subjective intentions of the parties reinforces the view that each of the agreements in question had the object of restricting, preventing or distorting competition. (8) Knowledge of YWCA 435. The respondents have pleaded the issue of YWCA’s knowledge of the impugned agreements only in relation to the definition of “bid-rigging” in connection with the warning notice requirement. The question of YWCA’s knowledge has arisen only in that context and is dealt with in section L(4) below. In closing, however, Nutanix and Innovix argued separately that the arrangements would not be anti-competitive by object if YWCA had knowledge of them. 436. It seems to me, first, that in theory this is a separate point. Secondly, however, it has not been raised by the respondents up to the opening and ought not to be dealt with separately now. Thirdly, the persons within YWCA whose knowledge is relevant to this question may well be different. For the specific purposes of the warning notice argument and for

74 Chan’s interview record, §§1370-1372. 75 As explained in §223 above, this was a reference to BT’s bid offering the Dell-Nutanix solution.

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V the reasons set out in section L(4)(a) below, I find that the Commission has accepted that Lok’s knowledge is attributable to YWCA, but, for the purposes of the anti-competitive object of the agreements, there may be an argument that the relevant knowledge is that of those in YWCA who were to decide on the outcome of the tender. There is no suggestion that members of the Tender Board or staff of APD had any relevant knowledge. Lok had influence (especially on technical matters) but was by no means the sole decision-maker. Fourthly and in any event, as explained in section L(4)(b) below, I find that Lok did not have the requisite knowledge. (9) Conclusion on “object” 437. In many object cases there would be a debate that the arrangements in question were intended to pursue a legitimate commercial goal rather than to restrict or distort competition. For example, in Cartes Bancaires, it was argued that the new rules were intended to promote the grouping’s acquisition of merchants’ acceptance, which closely interacted with the card-issuing activities of members because consumers would not wish to hold a card that was not accepted by a sufficient number of merchants. In contrast, on the Tribunal’s findings, there was no commercial justification in this case. The purpose of the agreements was to mislead YWCA into awarding the tender under the mistaken belief that there had been a genuine competitive tender process. They were aimed at giving YWCA a false impression of competition with additional independent bids to choose from. Their object was to interfere with fundamental aspects of the tender process and distort the true competitive process. The agreements had the potential of deceiving YWCA into awarding the contract simply based on the second tender, rather than to consider further steps in the procurement exercise. In

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V my view, the Commission has shown that the agreements have the object of preventing, restricting or distorting competition. 438. In Apex Asphalt the UK Competition Appeal Tribunal held (at §250) that: “ Concertation the object of which is to deceive the tenderee into thinking that a bid is genuine when it is not, plainly forms part of the mischief which section 2 of the Act is seeking to prevent.” In my opinion this is also true of the first conduct rule in the Ordinance. 439. Despite the many ingenious submissions made on behalf of the respondents, the conduct in the present case is not innocuous (as the respondents’ counsel sought to suggest), and in my view plainly had an object to prevent, restrict or distort competition, although there may be scope for debate as to its seriousness when it comes to the question of the orders to be made.

K. EXCLUSION UNDER SECTION 5 OF SCHEDULE 1 440. It is convenient to deal at this juncture with a point raised solely by Tech‑21. Tech‑21 submitted that there is no evidence before the Tribunal that the combined turnover of the Nutanix and Tech‑21 exceeded $200 million during the relevant turnover period. According to s 30 of the Ordinance and s 5(1) of Schedule 1 to the Ordinance, the first conduct rule does not apply to an agreement between or a concerted practice engaged in by undertakings if their combined turnover for the turnover period does not exceed $200 million.

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V Section 5(2) provides, however, that s 5(1) does not apply to an agreement or concerted practice that involves serious anti‑competitive conduct. Tech‑21 submitted that, therefore, unless the Commission proves serious anti‑competitive conduct, its case must be dismissed. 441. It is notable that this point was only raised by Tech‑21 and not the other respondents, and then only in its closing submissions for the first time. It was not mentioned or in any way hinted at in the Response it filed or in counsel’s opening submissions. It is Tech‑21 which seeks to assert that this exclusion applies. Given the lack of evidence, it is in my judgment not open to Tech‑21 to rely on this exclusion. 442. In any event, as acknowledged by Tech‑21, the exclusion does not benefit serious anti‑competitive conduct. This therefore simply brings one back to the question raised in the context of warning notice, namely, whether there was bid‑rigging in this case, which is dealt with in section L below.

L. WARNING NOTICE (1) Section 82 443. Section 82 of the Ordinance provides as follows: “ (1) If the Commission has reasonable cause to believe that— (a) a contravention of the first conduct rule has occurred; and (b) the contravention does not involve serious anti‑competitive conduct,

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V the Commission must, before bringing proceedings in the Tribunal against the undertaking whose conduct is alleged to constitute the contravention, issue a notice (a “warning notice”) to the undertaking. (2) A warning notice must— (a) describe the conduct (the “contravening conduct”) that is alleged to constitute the contravention; (b) identify the undertaking (the “contravening undertaking”) that has engaged in the contravening conduct; (c) identify the evidence or other materials that the Commission relies on in support of its allegations; (d) state— (i) that the Commission requires the contravening undertaking to cease the contravening conduct within the period (the “warning period”) specified in the notice, and not to repeat that conduct after the warning period; (ii) that, if the contravening conduct continues after the expiry of the warning period, the Commission may bring proceedings in the Tribunal against the contravening undertaking in respect of the contravening conduct; and (iii) that, if the contravening undertaking repeats the contravening conduct after the expiry of the warning period, the Commission may bring proceedings in the Tribunal against the contravening undertaking in respect of the contravening conduct and the repeated conduct; and (e) indicate the manner in which the contravening undertaking may cease the contravening conduct. (3) In determining the warning period, the Commission must have regard to the amount of time which the contravening undertaking is likely to require to cease the contravening conduct. (4) After the expiry of the warning period— (a) if the Commission has reasonable cause to believe that the contravening conduct continues after the expiry, the Commission may bring proceedings in the Tribunal against the contravening undertaking in respect of the contravening conduct; and (b) if the Commission has reasonable cause to believe that the contravening undertaking repeats the contravening

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V conduct after the expiry, the Commission may bring proceedings in the Tribunal against the contravening undertaking in respect of the contravening conduct and the repeated conduct. (5) To avoid doubt, proceedings under subsection (4) may not be brought in respect of any period that precedes the warning period. (6) The Commission may, either of its own volition or on application made to it in writing, extend the warning period specified in a warning notice if it considers that there is a good reason for doing so. (7) An application for an extension under subsection (6) must be made before the expiry of the period sought to be extended.” 444. Section 82 is a special feature of the Hong Kong competition law regime, not found in other jurisdictions. It requires a warning notice to be issued before any enforcement proceedings may be brought by the Commission in the Tribunal in specified circumstances, and precludes any proceedings from being brought in respect of any time preceding the warning period where applicable. 445. No warning notice was issued to any of the respondents in this case. The Commission’s position is that none was required as this case involved “serious anti‑competitive conduct” and in particular “bid‑rigging”. The respondents disagree and contend that the case should be dismissed on this ground alone. 446. It is common ground that the Tribunal has jurisdiction to consider the challenge raised by the respondents based on the absence of a warning notice, as a matter related to the Commission’s application with regard to alleged contraventions of the competition rules: s 142(1)(a) & (g). The Commission also accepts that if a warning notice was required in this case, then the proceedings should be dismissed because none was issued.

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V 447. The concept of “serious anti-competitive conduct” is a statutory creature. The definition has been set out in §20 above. Within the Ordinance, this concept is relevant for the following purposes: (1) in relation to an alleged contravention of the first conduct rule, whether the Commission must issue a warning notice under s 82 before bringing proceedings in the Tribunal (see s 82(1) & (5)); (2) whether the Commission may issue an infringement notice under s 67 in respect of a contravention of the first conduct rule (see s 67(1)((a)(i)); and (3) whether the exclusion of agreements of lesser significance from the first conduct rule in s 5 of Schedule 1 applies (see s 5(1) and (2) of Schedule 1). 448. Whether certain conduct is serious anti‑competitive conduct does not affect the meaning of the first conduct rule, or the question of whether a particular agreement has the object or effect of restriction of competition. Despite the label of “serious anti‑competitive conduct”, the Ordinance does not provide that such conduct is taken as a matter of law or presumed to be anti‑competitive by object or effect, seriously or otherwise. The Commission has expressed the same view in its Guideline on the First Conduct Rule at §5.7, where it is stated: “ Whether conduct is considered Serious Anti‑competitive Conduct is not part of the determination of whether the conduct contravenes the First Conduct Rule because it has the object or effect of harming competition. The issue of whether the conduct is considered Serious Anti‑competitive Conduct only arises after the Commission forms the view that the conduct contravenes the First Conduct Rule. Conduct that is Serious Anti‑competitive Conduct may contravene the First Conduct Rule where it has either the object or effect of harming competition.”

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V 449. The respondents agree with this approach. In the present case, the only relevance of “serious anti‑competitive conduct” is whether a warning notice was required and the implications under s 82.76 It does not affect the question whether the conduct infringed the first conduct rule. 450. Serious anti‑competitive conduct, as defined, includes several forms of conduct of which only “bid‑rigging” is relevant in the present case. The statutory definition of “bid‑rigging” is set out in §491 below. That definition has relevance only in the context of the definition of “serious anti‑competitive conduct” (see s 2(2)). As will be seen below, one of the components of bid‑rigging is that the agreement in question was not made known to the person who called for the tender, namely, YWCA in this case. It is in this context that the extent of YWCA’s knowledge of the respondents’ agreements has become an issue in these proceedings. (2) The relevant time for the purpose of s 82 (a) The pleadings 451. In the Commission’s Originating Notice of Application, it was stated: “ 80. The relevant arrangements were not known to YWCA, its Tender Board or any of its staff at or before the time when the bids were submitted by BT, SiS, Innovix and Tech‑21. In particular, Mr Lok Yiu Ying (also known as Alan Lok), Head of the Information System Department of YWCA (“Mr Lok”) has expressly denied knowledge of any arrangements to submit “dummy” bids in response to the Second Tender and states that he was not aware of any irregularity or communications among BT and other tender invitees in the Second Tender. 81. As the facts and matters above involved “serious anti‑competitive conduct”, no warning notice is required to be issued

76 The point on agreements of lesser significance is not open to Tech‑21, as stated in section K above.

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V by the Commission pursuant to section 82(1) of the Ordinance.” Reference was made in a footnote to §80 to the statements of Lok dated 21 December 2016 and 6 March 2017 respectively. 452. The respondents filed Responses which, broadly speaking, denied that YWCA had no knowledge of the alleged agreements. For example, Nutanix’s Response stated: “ The Applicant did not issue a warning notice to the 1st Respondent before bringing these proceedings. Accordingly, the Applicant must prove that the 1st Respondent’s alleged conduct constitutes serious anti‑competitive conduct. Otherwise, its case must be dismissed even if it can demonstrate that there is an independent contravention of the First Conduct Rule.” 453. The Commission’s Reply dated 7 July 2017 did not respond on this matter and made no mention of warning notices. 454. Prior to the trial, it would appear from the documents filed that the parties (except Innovix, see below) had been proceeding on the basis that the Commission needed to prove serious anti‑competitive conduct at trial or its application would have to be dismissed. (b) The new point 455. In its written opening dated 30 May 2018, the Commission submitted that even if the Tribunal does not at the end of the trial find serious anti‑competitive conduct, it can still make a finding of breach of the first conduct rule and make orders under ss 93‑94, because, prior to the commencement of the proceedings, the Commission “had reasonable cause to believe that YWCA had no knowledge of the alleged dummy bids”.

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V 456. As explained by counsel, the Commission’s stance is that, in relation to YWCA’s knowledge, only the evidential position before the commencement of proceedings is relevant to the need to issue a warning notice. The findings on YWCA’s knowledge based on all the evidence available at trial are not relevant to that question. Accordingly: (1) If the Tribunal finds that at the time of commencement of proceedings, the Commission had reasonable cause to believe that YWCA did not have knowledge of the dummy bids, then the Commission was not required to issue a warning notice, and the proceedings should not be dismissed pursuant to s 82 even if the Tribunal finds at the end that YWCA did have knowledge. Indeed, on this logic, the question whether or not (based on all the available evidence at trial) YWCA in fact had knowledge is immaterial and need not be determined by this Tribunal. (2) If the Tribunal finds that prior to the commencement of proceedings, the Commission did not have reasonable cause to believe that YWCA did not have knowledge, then the Commission accepts the Tribunal should dismiss the proceedings due to the failure to issue a warning notice. 457. It seems to me clear that this is a new point which the respondents could not have anticipated from the Commission’s pleadings. (c) Objection to the new point 458. Nutanix and BT submitted that this argument is not open to the Commission because it is a wholly new case which has not been pleaded or otherwise notified to the respondents in advance. The Commission has not

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V disputed that it is a new point, but argued that it is a legal argument which it should be allowed to run. 459. It is to some extent a legal argument, raising issues on the construction of s 82. But in my view it is not a discrete, pure point of law. As can be seen below, there are arguments about what it is that the Commission had to have reasonable cause to believe. The question of what materials were available to the Commission at the time of commencement of proceedings and what it had reasonable cause to believe at that time are clearly factual matters hitherto not the subject of attention. 460. Nutanix and BT complained that they were taken by surprise. They submitted that they were likely to have pursued a different approach in the evidential stage, particularly in terms of exploring the Commission’s state of knowledge prior to the commencement of proceedings. 461. Without determining the question of the respondents’ entitlement to discovery of documents or disclosure of information, it seems to me impossible within the present context to rule out that the respondents might have approached the disclosure procedures differently and that the evidentiary base for the trial on this question might have been different, if the Commission had taken the point at an earlier stage. 462. In these circumstances, I agree with Nutanix and BT that the point is not open to the Commission at this late stage. This appears also to be the position of Tech-21. The relevant issue for these respondents is therefore whether the Commission has proved serious anti-competitive conduct based on the evidence at trial. This does not mean the Tribunal will “misapply the law” but simply that it will decide the issues properly raised in the case.

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V 463. In contrast, Innovix submitted that on the Commission’s new argument, it had failed to show that at the time of commencement of proceedings it had no reasonable cause to believe YWCA knew of the alleged agreements. (This argument was adopted by Nutanix and BT as their fall‑back position if their objection did not prevail.) The Commission submitted that the same approach on this point should be adopted with respect to all respondents. However, Innovix’s argument has been its case as stated in its Response from the outset. There is no unfairness to the Commission in dealing with it provided it is based on a correct construction of the statute. (d) Time for assessing existence of serious anti‑competitive conduct under s 82 464. As already explained, the Commission’s (and Innovix’s) position is essentially that, for the purposes of s 82, it is its belief or grounds for belief in relation to serious anti‑competitive conduct that are relevant. In contrast, Nutanix and BT submit that the touchstone is whether serious anti‑competitive conduct is established at trial, irrespective of the Commission’s belief or grounds for belief at the time of commencement of proceedings. 465. Having regard to the wording of s 82(1), there is in my view considerable force in the Commission’s and Innovix’s contention. The warning notice, where required, has to be issued before the commencement of proceedings. The time for deciding whether a warning notice is necessary must therefore be that point in time. The bringing of an enforcement application in the Tribunal without having first issued a warning notice (where required) is in itself a breach of s 82(1), vitiating the proceedings from the start irrespective of the substantive merits.

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V 466. Conversely, where the Commission has acted correctly in not issuing a warning notice before bringing proceedings, even if it subsequently transpires that no serious anti‑competitive conduct is involved, there is nothing in s 82 to suggest that a warning notice would retrospectively become necessary or that the proceedings properly begun would be vitiated on that ground. Rather, the language and structure of s 82 suggest that the position is crystallised as at the commencement of proceedings. 467. Nutanix and BT submitted that that argument is incorrect as a matter of statutory interpretation because it is (a) contrary to the legislative purpose of s 82, and (b) unworkable in practice. 468. Turning first to legislative purpose, it may be noted that neither the warning notice mechanism nor the notion of serious anti‑competitive conduct appeared in the Competition Bill as gazetted in July 2010. As explained in the Report of the Bills Committee on the Competition Bill,77 the warning notice mechanism was introduced in response to concerns raised by the business sector and in particular small and medium enterprises over the possibility of being found to have inadvertently breached competition law for “non‑hardcore anti‑competitive activities”, which were of a less serious nature and for which “there is no hard and fast rule as to whether they may or may not give rise to competition concerns”. 469. The protection offered by the warning notice mechanism is two‑fold. By requiring a warning notice to be issued before commencement of proceedings, it provides a chance for the undertakings, within a limited period, to remedy its conduct, without being subjected to enforcement proceedings. Secondly, by virtue of s 82(5), it “limits their exposure to

77 See LC Paper No. CB(1)1919/11-12, §§27-35.

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V sanctions to the period starting from the commencement of the period prescribed in the warning notice”. 470. Another protection added to the law to allay the concerns of small and medium enterprises was an exclusion in respect of agreements of lesser significance, ie agreements between undertakings with a combined turnover not exceeding HK$200 million. 471. At the same time, however, it was considered that these concessions ought not to apply to “hard‑core anti‑competitive activities” which were widely recognised in other jurisdictions as activities that almost always had an adverse impact on competition. The concept of “serious anti‑competitive conduct”, comprising price‑fixing, market allocation, output control and bid‑rigging, was accordingly introduced.78 472. These purposes do not, in my view, stand against the Commission’s and Innovix’s interpretation of s 82. The materials demonstrate a legislative intention in principle to afford protection to undertakings by the warning notice mechanism. How the mechanism should work in detail does not appear to have been discussed (although there was discussion of the situation where a warning notice is wrongly issued 79). There is nothing in the legislative materials, which were couched in general terms, that is contrary to what appears to be the correct interpretation based on the words used in the statute. Indeed, the respondents have not offered any route of construction by which the language of the statute can be read to bear the meaning they advance.

78 See LC Paper No. CB(1)1919/11-12, §§27, 32, 33, 41(b). 79 See LC Paper No. CB(1)1919/11-12, §§36-37.

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V 473. It was submitted that the Commission’s and Innovix’s construction would give the Commission the power to decide for itself whether conduct which might not in fact be serious anti‑competitive conduct could nevertheless be proceeded against without a warning notice. It was even submitted that it would encourage the Commission to postpone as much as possible the evidence-gathering exercise until after the instigation of proceedings. 474. This is, with respect, an extreme submission. In using the phrase “[i]f the Commission has reasonable cause to believe”, the legislature plainly intends to make the Commission’s obligation to issue a warning notice — and the correlative right of the undertaking not to be proceeded against without one — dependent upon the Commission’s belief or grounds for belief. As with other situations in which statutory power is placed in the hands of public bodies through similar formulae, the legislature proceeds on the basis that the Commission is duty bound to and will act in good faith. Furthermore, even on the Commission’s construction, it is not up to it to form whatever belief it desires — the statutory words are “has reasonable cause to believe”, which, as is well established, import an objective standard as explained below. 475. Nutanix and BT also submitted that having a two‑stage inquiry would be cumbersome and burdensome and would render proceedings more complex and onerous. It was said that on the Commission’s and Innovix’s interpretation, in all cases on the first conduct rule where no warning notice has been issued but the respondent says it should have been, the Tribunal would be required not merely to consider whether breach of the first conduct rule is proved in the end, but also, in the same proceedings, to look at the material available (or potentially available) to the Commission at the commencement of proceedings, ignoring the evidence that has in fact been led

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V at trial, and reach a determination as to whether or not the Commission had reasonable cause to believe at that stage that serious anti‑competitive conduct had or had not occurred. Counsel submitted that it is hard to imagine a more unsatisfactory and wasteful procedure. 476. The need to investigate the evidential position at an earlier stage can indeed potentially make the trial more complex. Dealing with it as a preliminary issue has been mentioned as an alternative, but whether it would be appropriate to do so would be a matter to be decided in each particular case. But it seems to me such complexities, where they do arise, are the inexorable result of s 82 as formulated. On the other hand, such complications do not necessarily arise in every case on the first conduct rule. The present case, where the issue arises in connection with the knowledge of the person calling for the tender, is by no means a typical one. 477. I take the view therefore that the Commission’s and Innovix’s interpretation is correct. (e) “Has reasonable cause to believe” 478. The parties have in addition debated what has to be shown if the position is to be assessed as at the commencement of proceedings. (i) Subject matter of belief 479. The requirement of warning notice arises if the Commission has reasonable cause to believe that the contravention does not involve serious anti‑competitive conduct. In a case such as the present where no warning notice was issued, the Commission’s position is necessarily that the requirement did not arise, i.e. it did not have reasonable cause to believe that

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V the contravention did not involve serious anti‑competitive conduct. In the context of this case, the contravention would not have involved serious anti‑competitive conduct (viz bid‑rigging) if the agreement in question was made known to the person calling for tenders (YWCA). In other words, the Commission has to show it did not have reasonable cause to believe that it was made known to YWCA. 480. In its submissions the Commission stated that it had reasonable cause to believe that YWCA did not know. The respondents submitted that the Commission asked itself the wrong question, and that the correct question was whether there was reasonable cause to believe that YWCA did know. I accept that not having reasonable cause to believe “X” is not logically equivalent to having reasonable cause to believe “not X”, but I think the difference has been exaggerated in this case. 481. The fallacy in the respondents’ position is illustrated by the submission that, because the Commission has to show that it had no reasonable cause to believe YWCA knew, so long as there is some evidence tending to show that the alleged agreements had been made known to YWCA, the Commission fails. 80 A slight variant of that submission, advanced by Innovix and adopted by Nutanix, was that the materials available could provide reasonable cause both for believing that YWCA did not know and for believing that YWCA did know. I do not accept this submission. 482. Belief is more than idle wondering, conjecture and even suspicion. In George v Rockett (1990) 93 ALR 483, the High Court of

80 R3 Opening §§24-27; R4 Closing §30.

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V Australia distinguished the concept of “a reason to believe” from “a reason to suspect”. In a unanimous judgment, their Honours stated (at pp 490‑491): “ In Queensland Bacon Pty Ltd v Rees (1966) 115 CLR 266, a question was raised as to whether a payee had reason to suspect that the payer, a debtor, ‘was unable to pay [its] debts as they became due’ as that phrase was used in s 95(4) of the Bankruptcy Act 1924 (Cth). Kitto J said (at 303): ‘A suspicion that something exists is more than a mere idle wondering whether it exists or not; it is a positive feeling of actual apprehension or mistrust, amounting to ‘a slight opinion, but without sufficient evidence’, as Chambers’ Dictionary expresses it. Consequently, a reason to suspect that a fact exists is more than a reason to consider or look into the possibility of its existence. The notion which ‘reason to suspect’ expresses in sub‑s (4) is, I think, of something which in all the circumstances would create in the mind of a reasonable person in the position of the payee an actual apprehension or fear that the situation of the payer is in actual fact that which the sub‑section describes — a mistrust of the payer’s ability to pay his debts as they become due and of the effect which acceptance of the payment would have as between the payee and the other creditors.’ The objective circumstances sufficient to show a reason to believe something need to point more clearly to the subject matter of the belief, but that is not to say that the objective circumstances must establish on the balance of probabilities that the subject matter in fact occurred or exists: the assent of belief is given on more slender evidence than proof. Belief is an inclination of the mind towards assenting to, rather than rejecting, a proposition and the grounds which can reasonably induce that inclination of the mind may, depending on the circumstances, leave something to surmise or conjecture.” 483. Similarly, as Hely J stated in St George Bank Ltd v Rabo Australia Ltd (2004) 211 ALR 147 at 154 in relation to belief, “it is not sufficient to point to a mere possibility. The evidence must incline the mind towards the matter or fact in question”. 484. It can be seen that the legislature also differentiates between the two concepts in the Ordinance. It has used the phrase “reasonable cause to

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V believe” in s 82 81 in contradistinction to the term “reasonable cause to suspect” which may be found in ss 39 and 41 as the condition for exercising investigative powers. 485. The Commission’s belief – as an overall inclination – is to be formed by looking at the available material in the round. It is not an instantaneous reaction to each piece of evidence considered in isolation, changing from one moment to another as the Commission sifts through the material. What there is reasonable cause to believe should similarly be based on the entire body of material. If the material examined as a whole objectively gave reasonable cause for one to believe that the matter was not made known to YWCA, this effectively means it did not give reasonable cause to believe that it was made known to YWCA. (ii) Subjective belief 486. The respondents submitted that the condition in s 82(1) for not issuing a warning notice is partly subjective and partly objective: (1) the Commission must at the relevant time in fact not believe that the contravention did not involve serious anti‑competitive conduct; and (2) it must be reasonable for the Commission to hold such position on the evidence then available to it. 487. The Commission submitted that the test is purely objective. While the Commission is correct to point out that the language of the statute in Yeung May Wan & Others v HKSAR (2005) 8 HKCFAR 137 at §§71‑72 (“he reasonably believes”) is distinguishable, the other two cases cited,

81 and in ss 92, 97 and 99 in relation to commencement of proceedings.

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V namely, Inland Revenue Commissioners v Rossminster [1980] AC 952 at 1013D‑E and O’Hara v Chief Constable of the Royal Ulster Constabulary [1997] AC 286 at 298A‑E, both concern statutory language similar to the phrase “has reasonable cause to believe” in s 82(1). I am inclined to think that the phrase imports a subjective element as was the conclusion in those two cases. This may be contrasted with the different formula “there is reasonable cause to believe” which may well indicate a purely objective test: Hong Kong Archbold 2018, §41-19. 488. For the subjective part of the condition, the respondents submitted that the Commission has to lead evidence on its actual state of mind. I do not think that is the legislative intention. The cases cited above concern the power of arrest without warrant on the part of a police officer (O’Hara82 and Yeung May Wan83) and the power of seizure and removal on the part of an officer executing a search warrant (Rossminster84). In contrast, under the Ordinance, the person whose belief is relevant is the Commission, which is a statutory body consisting of up to 16 members and which makes decisions by a majority of the votes cast at meetings.85 The power to make an application to the Tribunal under s 92 is a non‑delegable function reserved to the Commission.86 It is therefore the collective belief of the majority of members

82 Section 12(1) of the Prevention of Terrorism (Temporary Provisions) Act 1984 provided: “… a constable may arrest without warrant a person whom he has reasonable grounds for suspecting to be … (b) a person who is or has been concerned in the commission, preparation or instigation of acts of terrorism …”. 83 Section 50(1) of the Police Force Ordinance (Cap 232) provided: “It shall be lawful for any police officer to apprehend any person who he reasonably believes will be charged with or whom he reasonably suspects of being guilty of: (a) any offence for which the sentences fixed by law or for which a person may (one a first conviction for that offence) be sentenced to imprisonment …”. 84 Section 20C(3) of the Taxes Management Act 1970 provided: “On entering the premises with a warrant under this section, the officer may seize and remove any things whatsoever found there which he has reasonable cause to believe may be required as evidence for the purposes of proceedings in respect of such an offence as is mentioned in subsection (1) above …”. 85 Schedule 5 to the Ordinance, ss 2(1), 15(4). 86 Schedule 5 to the Ordinance, s 31(2)(o).

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V who voted in favour of bringing proceedings under s 92 without first issuing a warning notice that is relevant. 489. The existence of such belief is in my view evidenced by the decision to file proceedings itself. It could not have been the legislative intention that the deliberation process and results and the subjective state of mind of each and every member who voted in favour of the decision should be probed into. I accept the Commission’s submission that there is a presumption as to the genuineness of its subjective belief: see Rossminster, at p 1009B‑D. (iii) Objective basis 490. The objective part asks whether there in fact existed reasonable grounds for the Commission to hold that position when it instituted proceedings without first issuing a warning notice. The grounds on which the Commission acted must be sufficient to induce in a reasonable person the required belief: Nakkuda Ali v Jayaratne [1951] AC 66, 77; Rossminster, at p 1000C‑D, 1011B‑D. This is an objective question of fact to be determined on the basis of all of the evidence and information known to the Commission before proceedings were issued. The material need not be limited to evidence admissible in an eventual trial: Secretary for Justice v Xu Aimin (HCMP 1072/2016; 29 August 2016), §16. (3) Bid‑rigging (a) Statutory definition 491. Section 2(2) provides that, for the purposes of the definition of “serious anti-competitive conduct” (quoted in §20 above), “bid‑rigging” means—

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V “ (a) an agreement— (i) that is made between or among 2 or more undertakings whereby one or more of those undertakings agrees or undertakes not to submit a bid or tender in response to a call or request for bids or tenders, or agrees or undertakes to withdraw a bid or tender submitted in response to such a call or request; and (ii) that is not made known to the person calling for or requesting bids or tenders at or before the time when a bid or tender is submitted or withdrawn by a party to the agreement or by an entity controlled by any one or more of the parties to the agreement; or (b) a submission, in response to a call or request for bids or tenders, of bids or tenders that are arrived at by an agreement— (i) that is made between or among 2 or more undertakings; and (ii) that is not made known to the person calling for or requesting bids or tenders at or before the time when a bid or tender is submitted or withdrawn by a party to the agreement or by an entity controlled by any one or more of the parties to the agreement” 492. The relevant limb of the definition in this case is (b). There are four basic elements to the definition in (b): (1) there is an agreement; (2) the agreement must be made between two or more undertakings; (3) there is a submission of bids or tenders that are arrived at by the agreement; and (4) the agreement is not made known to the person calling for or requesting the bids or tenders at or before the time when a bid or tender is submitted. 493. The definition of bid‑rigging in s 2(2) closely resembles (with one significant difference), and appears to have been derived from, s 47(1) of

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V the Competition Act of Canada (quoted in §497 below), 87 which was originally enacted in 1976 as s 32.2 of the Combines Investigation Act.88 (b) Agreement 494. Section 2(2)(b) refers to “agreement”. It will be recalled that the word has a wide definition, which includes any agreement, arrangement, understanding, promise or undertaking, whether express or implied, written or oral, and whether or not legally enforceable or intended to be legally enforceable (see s 2(1)). 495. In addition, s 6(2) provides: “ Unless the context otherwise requires, a provision of this Ordinance which is expressed to apply to, or in relation to, an agreement is to be read as applying equally to, or in relation to, a concerted practice and a decision by an association of undertakings (but with any necessary modifications).” 496. The respondents dispute the application of s 6(2) to the definition of bid‑rigging, but I do not see why the plain terms of this provision should not have effect or why the context requires it should not be applied. Section 6(2) is enacted in the context of the first conduct rule and the notion of bid‑rigging, as a form of serious anti‑competitive conduct, has relevance specifically for the first conduct rule. Accordingly, by virtue of s 6(2), “agreement” in the definition of bid‑rigging in s 2(2) includes “concerted practice”. It may be noted that BT submitted that the distinction is likely to be immaterial in the present case because “agreement” includes an understanding or arrangement.

87 R.S.C. 1985, c. C-34. 88 R.S.C. 1970, c. C-23; as am S.C. 1974-75-76, c. 76.

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V (c) Between 2 or more undertakings 497. Section 47(1) of the Competition Act of Canada (RSC, 1985, c C‑34), from which the definition of “bid‑rigging” in s 2(2) is apparently derived, provides: “ (1) In this section, bid‑rigging means (a) an agreement or arrangement between or among two or more persons whereby one or more of those persons agrees or undertakes not to submit a bid or tender in response to a call or request for bids or tenders, or agrees or undertakes to withdraw a bid or tender submitted in response to such a call or request, or (b) the submission, in response to a call or request for bids or tenders, of bids or tenders that are arrived at by agreement or arrangement between or among two or more bidders or tenderers, where the agreement or arrangement is not made known to the person calling for or requesting the bids or tenders at or before the time when any bid or tender is submitted or withdrawn, as the case may be, by any person who is a party to the agreement or arrangement.” (emphasis added) 498. In comparison with the Canadian statute (especially the words underlined above), it will be noted that the definition of bid‑rigging in the Ordinance does not expressly require the agreement to be between or among two or more bidders or tenderers, but simply two or more undertakings. The fact that Canadian law does not use the concept of “undertaking” does not explain why Hong Kong cannot retain the wording of “two or more bidders or tenderers”. 499. The requirement of two or more undertakings means that an agreement between two persons who form a single economic unit, and therefore one undertaking, does not fall within the definition. Nor does an agreement with an individual who is not himself an undertaking suffice,

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V unless this is attributable to the undertaking on whose behalf he has acted. It follows that the agreement between Hung and Shek does not satisfy the definition, as Shek’s conduct was not attributable to an undertaking (SiS). 500. It has been submitted on behalf of the respondents that vertical agreements are not caught by the definition of bid‑rigging, and that purely vertical agreements can never constitute bid‑rigging.89 They submitted that bid-rigging as commonly understood must involve a horizontal agreement between competitors. There is however no universal rule that vertical agreements can never give rise to or be characterised as bid‑rigging. 501. BT referred to the Commission’s Guideline on the First Conduct Rule at §6.26 which states that bid-rigging “generally involves two or more undertakings agreeing that they will not compete with one another for particular projects” and at §6.28 that: “Bid-rigging can take a number of forms, including undertakings agreeing: (a) that certain parties will not submit a bid or will withdraw a bid submitted previously (“bid suppression”); (b) to take turns at being the winning bidder (“bid rotation”); (c) that certain bidders will submit higher bid prices or less attractive terms than the supplier “chosen” to win the tender (“cover bidding”); or (d) to take other actions that reduce the competitive tension in the bidding process, such as by agreeing minimum bidding prices or agreeing that the winning bidder will reimburse other bidders’ bid costs.” In my view, these general, inclusive statements based on the experience that bid-rigging often involves agreements between competitors cannot be elevated to put a gloss on the statutory provisions so as to alter their meaning.

89 R1 Opening §59, R2 Opening §83.

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V 502. The legislature has conspicuously not confined the definition in the Ordinance to agreements between bidders. It is significant to bear in mind the peculiar context in which the definition is found in Hong Kong. While s 47(2) of the Canadian Act enacts a substantive offence of bid‑rigging punishable by a fine or imprisonment for up to 14 years, in Hong Kong the definition in s 2(2) is relevant only to the question whether there is serious anti‑competitive conduct, which is not a breach of any substantive rule as such but has relevance only for the specified purposes referred to in §447 above. Having regard to the different contexts, it is not surprising for the legislature to have adjusted the definition. 503. Moreover, much depends on the nature and content of the agreement. A purely vertical agreement between a reseller and his supplier as to how the reseller should respond to a tender exercise by way of his own bid is one thing. Contact by an undertaking with his supplier in a bidding situation, in relation to matters such as cost, profit margin and terms of sale, is normal and unobjectionable (see also §§419-423 above). But several “vertical” agreements between resellers and their common supplier respectively as to how each reseller should bid, with a view to putting in non- genuine bids or helping one of them win, would be a very different matter. Each case has to be examined on its own facts. 504. Nutanix submitted that even in situations involving a vertical player such as a supplier, there must, through that supplier, directly or indirectly, be a horizontal element. Even on this basis, it can be seen that, while the agreement between Nutanix and BT in the present case is structurally vertical, its content was not at all about the vertical relationship between them, but related to the submission of bids by other undertakings acting at the level of BT in the same tender. BT provided its own bid prices to

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V Nutanix not for the purpose of discussing that price with Nutanix. Nutanix then determined the bid prices of the others, who simply adopted them without paying any attention because these were not genuine bids. In the circumstances while the Nutanix/BT agreement was a vertical agreement, its content is about the conduct of BT’s horizontal counterparts and not about any vertical relationship (see also section J(6) above). 505. In any event the objection does not apply to the trilateral agreement between Nutanix, BT and Innovix, which involved a horizontal coordination between BT and Innovix. (d) Submission of bids or tenders arrived at by the agreement 506. The definition requires a submission (in response to a call or request) of bids or tenders that are arrived at by the agreement. In the Canadian case of R v Durward (2015), the trial judge directed the jury with respect to the requirement that the bids must be “arrived at” by the agreement, that: “ the outcome of the impermissible agreement or arrangement must lead to the bid and not simply relate to steps in the preparation of the bid.”90 507. R v McLellan Supply Ltd and Scott (SF) Manufacturing Company Ltd (No 2) [1986] AJ No 1715 was cited by the respondents. There a municipal authority issued an invitation to tender for the installation of chain‑link fences to a number of suppliers, including Scott and McLellan. McLellan was a supplier of chain‑link fence materials to Scott. McLellan would often submit its own bid whilst at the same time providing quotes to Scott which Scott used to formulate its bid, on the informal understanding that

90 R v Durward, Final Instructions to the Jury, Court File No 09-300-68, p 88.

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V McLellan would not “undercut” Scott. Following receipt of the tender, Scott sought quotes from McLellan for the required materials and they discussed “acceptable profit margins” on materials as well as labour costs. Subsequently McLellan gave Scott a cost price. Scott then prepared a bid based on the quote. McLellan also submitted a direct bid. 508. The court dismissed the charge of bid‑rigging under s 32.2 of the Combines Investigation Act against Scott and McLellan, but it seems to me to be a case on very different facts where (i) the final amount of Scott’s bids were not made known to McLellan at any time and vice versa, (ii) there was no agreement made to submit a bid of any particular nature or to bid at all on the project, (iii) there was no agreement affecting the calculation of the bids, and (iv) each accused submitted its own tender based on its own projection of costs.91 As such the case does not assist the respondents. Nor, with respect, does the case of Australian Competition and Consumer Commission v Olex Australia Pty Ltd [2017] FCA 222 assist, which is concerned with quite different statutory provisions in s 44ZZRD of Australia’s Competition and Consumer Act 2010 (Cth). 509. Nutanix and BT submitted that the opening words in s 2(2)(b) “a submission … of bids or tenders that are arrived at by an agreement” should be interpreted as only applying to a submission by a party to the agreement, and that since BT’s own bid was not arrived at by its agreement with Nutanix and the other bids were not submitted by a party to the agreement between Nutanix and BT, that agreement did not fall within bid-rigging. I agree with the Commission that this argument should be rejected:

91 See §§24‑25.

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V (1) First, no such limitation appears in the wording of s 2(2)(b) (unlike the Canadian Act). The provision should be applied in accordance with its plain wording, without reading in words. (2) The friends’ bids were arrived at by, inter alia, the agreement between Nutanix and BT. (3) The agreement was (on the Commission’s case) not made known to YWCA at or before the time when a bid was submitted by BT which was a party to the agreement, meeting the requirement of s 2(2)(b)(ii). 510. On the evidence, the bids of Innovix and Tech-21 (and the bid made by Shek in SiS’s name) would not have been submitted without the agreements in question. (e) Agreement not made known 511. The fourth element of s 2(2)(b) is that the agreement must not have been made known to the person calling for or requesting the bids or tenders at or before the time when a bid or tender is submitted or withdrawn by a party to the agreement. In Canada it appears that the concern that underlay the requirement of “not made known to” was that, otherwise, the law might unwittingly prohibit bids by joint ventures and similar groups, the purposes of which may be entirely legitimate and beneficial to the economy. 92 Canadian authorities on the equivalent provision suggest that express notification of the agreement to the person calling for tenders is required.

92 Debates of the Senate, Official Report (Hansard), 19 March 1975, p 680.

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V 512. In R v Travelways School Transit Ltd (1980) 52 CCC (2d) 399, Osler J rejected the argument that the agreement was made known to the person at the opening of the tender because it was obvious that the bids were identical and that the submission of identical bids was the result of an agreement. The court took the view that such an interpretation of the statute would give rise to an inappropriate lack of certainty in concluding if an agreement has been made known or not. Instead, Osler J held that: “ there is an affirmative obligation under those who join in such agreement not just to make it possible for the recipient of their bids to become aware that they had made an agreement but to affirmatively notify such persons in some manner other than the mere production of identical bids.”93 513. In R v Charterways Transportation Limited (1981) 32 OR (2d) 719,94 Dupont J adopted Osler J’s view and stated that a necessary inference that the bids were drawn pursuant to an agreement does not amount to making known as required by section 32.2(1) of the Combines Investigation Act. 514. In R v Lorne Wilson Transportation Ltd (1982) 138 DLR (3d) 690, on appeal from R v Charterways Transportation Limited, the Ontario Court of Appeal, rejecting an argument that the agreement was “made known” to the person requesting tenders because it could be inferred from the fact that identical tenders were submitted that they represented the product of an agreement between the tenderers, stated: “ As we construe the section, express notification of the agreement or arrangement is required. A person submitting a bid or tender which contravenes s 32.2(1)(a) or (b) must give actual notice of the agreement or arrangement to the person calling for or requesting the

93 This case concerns bid-rigging as an offence contrary to section 32.2(1) of the Combines Investigation Act (predecessor of section 47 of the Competition Act). 94 Osler J’s decision in R v Travelways School Transit Ltd was the decision on motions to quash the orders for committal while Dupont J’s was the decision after the trial.

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V bids or tenders at or before the time when the bid or tender is made in order to take advantage of the proviso in s 32.2(1).” 515. The same approach was adopted more recently in R v Durward where the judge directed the jury that the “made known” element “requires express notification to the person calling for bids or tenders” and that “[t]he person calling for bids or tenders must be aware of the impermissible agreement or arrangement”.95 516. In my respectful opinion, this interpretation of the phrase makes equal sense in the context of the Ordinance. When one comes to the stage of considering this element, the agreement is ex hypothesi one that is restrictive or distortive of competition and that falls within “bid-rigging” subject to the question whether it has been made known to the person calling for tenders. In my opinion it is sound law, and not an onerous burden, to require express notification of the agreement if it is to be exempted from being serious anti- competitive conduct on this ground. A different rule would introduce much uncertainty and create scope for unmeritorious argument such as that the person calling for bids or tenders must have believed, or could have guessed, or should have suspected, that the impermissible agreement existed. (f) A further controlling quality? 517. Nutanix submitted that there must be a further “controlling quality” of the agreement for it to amount to bid‑rigging, for not every agreement, even between competing undertakings, resulting in the submission of bids would, without more, be bid‑rigging. For example, it was said that an agreement between two undertakings that both would respond to a call for tenders will not, without more, be anti‑competitive.

95 R v Durward, Final Instructions to the Jury, Court File No 09‑300‑68, p 142.

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V 518. The contrary argument is that it is unnecessary to read any such additional element into the statute because the definition of bid‑rigging assumes that the first conduct rule is engaged. As explained above, serious anti‑competitive conduct is relevant only in the context of the first conduct rule. It is a sub‑set of conduct infringing the rule. The inquiry whether there is serious anti‑competitive conduct presupposes there is anti‑competitive conduct infringing the first conduct rule. The purpose of the inquiry would be one of those set out in §447 above. In the example postulated, the agreement would simply not infringe the first conduct rule in the first place, so that it would be unnecessary to consider whether it was bid‑rigging. In the end Nutanix accepted that the inquiries in both contexts would be similar, so that where, as in the present case, the agreements are held to be anti-competitive by object in the way established, I do not consider that any additional “controlling quality” should be required. (4) Whether made known to YWCA 519. The main factual issue relevant to the definition of bid-rigging is whether the agreements in question were made known to YWCA at or before the time when the bids were submitted in the second tender. (a) The scope of the question 520. YWCA is a large organisation. The invitation to tender was issued by APD (headed by Mak), with input from ISD (headed by Lok), after a decision to procure was made by ITDC. The contract was to be awarded by the Tender Board, a sub-committee of FAC. In principle there might be a question as to which individual’s knowledge constituted YWCA’s knowledge in this context, but it does not arise in this case because, as the respondents submitted and I accept, the parties had up to the commencement of the trial

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V proceeded on the basis that Mak’s and Lok’s knowledge was the relevant knowledge. There is no hint of an alternative case in the Commission’s pleadings or written opening that, even if the agreements were made known to Mak or Lok, it did not amount to YWCA’s knowledge. 521. Mak, who made the complaint on behalf of YWCA to the Commission and testified at trial, stated he had no knowledge and none of the respondents has suggested otherwise. 522. While Percy Ng and the chairman of ITDC, Rosaline Tam, knew each other as former colleagues in another company, there is no doubt that Lok, responsible for YWCA’s ISD, was, together with his assistant, Li, the primary contact point within YWCA for BT in relation to the project concerned. By agreement between the parties, Lok, but not Li, was called by the Commission to give evidence. 523. It would not be fair to permit the Commission to run a new case at trial that even if the agreements were made known to Lok, it did not matter because some other persons in YWCA did not know. The issue that arises in this case is therefore whether the agreements had been made known to, in the sense of having been expressly notified to, Lok. (b) Lok’s knowledge 524. Lok denied knowledge of the agreements in question. His evidence was the subject of vigorous attack by the respondents. I bear in mind that he has his own reputation and perhaps his position within YWCA to protect and as such cannot be regarded as wholly disinterested.

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V 525. In assessing the evidence of his knowledge I have borne in mind the good working relationship that existed between Lok and BT. It is clear that by the time of the tenders for the Nutanix solution, Lok had found BT’s work for YWCA, thus far, satisfactory and had a good working relationship with Percy Ng and Chan. BT had helped with the presentation of the proposed hyper-converged system to ITDC and with the proof-of-concept exercise. The evidence also shows that Lok and Li trusted Chan and were prepared to give him information and relied on him for assistance on certain matters relating to the procurement exercise: (1) In late 2015, Lok told BT that he thought YWCA had a budget of about $200,000 for each node of the Nutanix server. (2) On around 10 June 2016, as neither Lok nor Li was specifically trained on Nutanix’s products and the hyper-converged system was a new generation of servers, Lok let Chan prepare the first draft of the technical specifications for the first tender (see §105 above), which Lok adopted and provided to APD. (3) On 20‑21 June 2016, for the purposes of the first tender, Li asked Chan to suggest names of companies capable of supplying the Nutanix system. The names provided by Percy Ng were passed on by Lok to APD. Li later also adopted BT’s request (which originated from Nutanix) to remove one of the companies from the list (see §111 above). (It might be thought unusual for YWCA to ask BT to name any potential bidders, but this was due to the fact that at that time, the Nutanix product was very new on the market.96)

96 Chan’s interview record, §§1299-1304.

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V (4) On 5 July 2016, Lok told Chan the first tender had failed because there were insufficient bids and that there would be a second tender. (5) On 6 July 2016, Lok adopted the revised technical specifications prepared by Chan for the purpose of the second tender and passed them on to APD. The respondents submitted that Lok’s evidence that he checked the specifications were available on the market was incredible, but I do not think so. His statement did not mention that check, which was a minor matter, but did say he considered Chan’s suggestions with Li. Carrying out an online search to see a product was actually available would not be a difficult or lengthy exercise. (6) On the same date, Lok also accepted the four names suggested by Chan and included them in the list of potential suppliers he sent to APD for the purposes of the second tender. 526. There is also evidence that BT had in its possession a soft copy of the blank Compliance List in editable format that had been created by Wong. It was put to Lok that he had supplied it to BT but he denied it. There are the following points to note: (1) The metadata analysis of the file shows that its title had the number “TR16016MW” which was the reference number of the first tender. (2) While it may not have been entirely consistent with YWCA’s procurement practice, the provision of the soft copy suggests a readiness to accede to BT’s requests rather than an intention to facilitate anti‑competitive behaviour.

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V (3) As the Commission pointed out, if the suggestion is that the soft copy document was provided by Lok to Chan to facilitate the preparation of the second tender documents for Hung’s friends, there is no reason why the other documents (such as the Form of Tender, Supplier Profile Form and Schedule of Rates) would not have been provided also. 527. I accept Lok’s evidence that he did not himself provide the soft copy to BT but in any event, even if he did, I do not consider it to be evidence of any relevant knowledge of the agreement between Hung and Chan. 528. Lok knew about the deal registration system in the IT industry generally and that BT had registered the YWCA opportunity (although he was not sure whether it was with Dell or Nutanix). He believed that BT might be able to secure a more favourable discount than other IT companies because of the deal registration but there is no suggestion he knew the precise details. 529. The respondents suggest there was an urgent need to procure the system. There is some dispute on the evidence which ultimately seems to me a matter of degree. Clearly Lok wanted YWCA to be able to procure the equipment sooner rather than later. Some of YWCA’s data had been transferred to the proof-of-concept machines, which were on loan and had to be returned to Dell. However the pressure to return them, in my view, fell more on Chan than on Lok. By late July 2016, after the second tender, Lok told Mak there was urgency in installing applications on the Nutanix platform and asked him to speed up the process. 530. When it was suggested to Lok that he had agreed with Chan that BT would find other tenderers to make up the required minimum number of

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V bidders for the second tender, Lok admitted that either he or Li had contacted Chan for assistance in identifying other companies in the market who would be able to provide YWCA with the Nutanix solution. 531. Chan’s evidence was that on 5 July 2016, Lok told him that BT’s bid was the only bid received in the first tender and that there would be a second tender. Chan and Lok agreed to try to make the second tender successful. Chan said he would simplify the tender specifications. In a subsequent telephone conversation, Chan told Lok that Hung would locate partners to try to make up the minimum number of five responses in the second tender and Chan would supply a list of the partners to Lok. 532. I consider that Lok did understand that Chan contacted the supplier i.e. Nutanix (though Lok did not know Hung’s name) who would help and try to get some channel partners of Nutanix to submit bids in the second tender. To the extent he denied that I do not accept that evidence. 533. However, Lok was adamant that he believed the companies suggested by Chan would be capable of and genuinely interested in bidding in the second tender. He stated that he did not ask Chan or Percy Ng or any other person in BT for their assistance to find companies to submit dummy bids to YWCA, nor did Chan or Percy Ng tell him that they would do so or had done so. He said that had he known that a company intended to submit a dummy bid, he would have immediately reported this to APD. 534. Lok also categorically disagreed with the suggestion that he had agreed with Chan, whether on 5 July 2017 or otherwise, that BT would find companies to put in bids that would have no chance of winning.

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V 535. It should be noted that Lok added seven other companies to the four names suggested by Chan and gave a list of eleven to APD (see §120 above). Once the company names were given to APD, APD had its own mechanism to produce a list of invitees to tender. Although Priscilla Szeto had told Wong on 6 July 2016 that SiS would not bid, APD did not remove its name. According to Mak, whose evidence I accept, one of the reasons was that Lok wanted SiS on the list. This suggests that Lok thought SiS might well be encouraged to bid, but does not tend to show he was notified of any agreement to procure non-genuine bids. 536. Chan’s (unchallenged) evidence was that he did not tell Lok that either he (Chan) or Hung would obtain dummy bids. Indeed, BT did not put to Lok that he was made aware of an agreement to submit dummy bids in the sense referred to by the Commission, i.e. not genuine or not intended to win. 537. In the absence of any evidence of express notification to Lok, the respondents submit that he must have understood from the context that dummy bids would be submitted by the four companies Chan named to him. The high point of this argument is the evidence that Chan sought Lok’s advice on 14 July 2016 on how the Compliance List should be completed. This is what Chan said in his witness statement: “ … After Thomas mentioned to me how he was planning to complete the Compliance List, I asked Alan for his advice how the document should be completed (such as which items should be marked as compliant or non‑compliant). It is my belief that Alan would have known from this that I was assisting Thomas so that Thomas could help the other bidders to complete their bids. I did not expressly inform Alan that the other bids would be “dummy bids” in the sense I have mentioned above97, though I believe he may have known this from the context.”

97 This refers to the passage in his statement quoted in §204 above.

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V 538. This passage concerned what Chan believed Lok might have understood from the context. In submitting that the agreements in question had not in fact been made known to Lok, the Commission is not in my view in any way impermissibly seeking to discredit Chan. 539. When it was suggested to Lok in cross-examination that he should have known that Chan was assisting Hung to help other bidders to complete their bids, Lok rejected such suggestion. As to this: (1) Lok explained he did not know and could not remember having met Hung. The first time he learnt about Hung was when he gave his statement to the Commission. I accept this evidence. Lok and Hung clearly had no pre-existing relationship. The fact that Lok might in fact have met Hung on one prior occasion when Percy Ng took Hung to meet with YWCA staff is neither here nor there. It was not something Lok would necessarily have registered in his mind. It is notable that Percy Ng, in a message to Lok on 4 August 2016, wrote in terms of “the Nutanix manager helping us on the tender” rather than referred to Hung by name. (2) Further, while Lok relied on Chan for certain matters, Lok was after all an employee and a representative of YWCA, the client. Chan had been careful not to include Lok in his communications with Hung. Thus, for example, Chan did not send Lok his email to Hung of 5 July 2016 at 16:14 but sent Lok a different email at 16:22 to set out the specifications. Nor did Chan simply forward to Lok the email from Hung of 6 July 2016 setting out the four names, which would have contained in the chain Chan’s email to Hung. Instead, Chan composed a separate email to Lok giving him the names.

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V (3) Lok’s evidence of his understanding was that Chan needed his help on how to complete the Compliance List as Percy Ng was on leave at the time. Chan said he had received assistance and input from Percy Ng on the Compliance List in relation to the first tender, and that he did not himself require help from Lok on how to fill in the Compliance List for BT in relation to the second tender. There is no reason, however, that Lok should know that Chan had prepared BT’s Compliance List in the first tender or, even if he did, that Chan intended to submit for BT an identical Compliance List in the second tender. As Lok explained in his evidence, YWCA’s prior contracts with BT were Percy Ng’s responsibility. Lok understood Chan had come in as the deputy since Percy Ng was on leave and that the second tender was the first time Chan had to fill in such document. Percy Ng’s evidence also suggested that he would have dealt with the documents for the first tender but for the fact that he was going on leave on 25 June 2016. The invitation to the first tender had however already been sent out on 21 June 2016 (with the deadline of noon on 28 June) and there is no reason why Lok must have known that Percy Ng did not fill in the Compliance List before going on leave. (4) Lok’s evidence that if he had known that anyone intended to submit a dummy bid, he would have reported it to APD, seems to me to be genuine. He was keen for YWCA to procure the equipment, but had no reason to make sure that BT was the successful tenderer at all costs. There is no basis to doubt his loyalty to YWCA. Despite his reliance on and good working relationship with BT, obtaining more genuine bids might result in the receipt of a bid lower than BT’s, which would be for YWCA’s benefit. There is no suggestion Lok knew the precise deal

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V registration discount BT would get and I do not consider that he believed that no bids genuinely and independently formulated and submitted by any other company would have a chance to beat BT’s. I do not find it inherently probable that he would acquiesce in Chan procuring bids that were not intended to win but purely to make up the numbers so that BT’s bid would prevail. (5) For his part, Chan simply had a working relationship with Lok and had no control over him. It would be highly unlikely that Chan would wish Lok to know that Chan and Hung were arranging for non-genuine bids to be submitted to YWCA or that Chan had given Hung BT’s bid prices for the exercise. On the contrary, Chan was taking care to avoid suspicion on the part of YWCA (see his email to Hung dated 15 July 2016 set out in §135 above). Chan also said in his statement that he deliberately changed the wording in each of the Compliance Lists for SiS and Innovix respectively to avoid arousing “suspicion within YWCA”. He was concerned that what he was doing would not be acceptable to YWCA if it found out. (6) On Chan’s own evidence in the statement quoted in §537 above, he did not expressly inform Lok of the purposes of his enquiry about the Compliance List; nor did he tell Lok that he (Chan) and Hung were arranging for dummy bids to be submitted. (7) In cross-examination, Chan agreed with the suggestion put to him by counsel for Innovix that from the conversation about the Compliance List, Lok must have understood that the bidders found by BT “would not be putting in competitive bids”. However, he went on to explain that he said this because BT had a preferential discount with Nutanix and even if the prices were similar, BT would not lose because of the efforts it had already put in and the relationship with YWCA.

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V (8) When asked by the Tribunal to explain in his own words the relevant conversation he had with Lok, Chan said: “ Because at the time Thomas said to me that they would fill in most parts in the compliance list with ‘no’. So after a discussion with Alan, Alan told me that for some parts, they could not be filled in with a ‘no’, because if those parts were filled in with a ‘no’ then it would mean that they did not comply.” There was no suggestion Chan had actually told Lok that he was seeking advice on how the Compliance List should be filled in – not for BT – but for other tenderers that either BT or Nutanix was going to procure to put in tenders. (9) In his re-examination, Chan was asked by the Tribunal to clarify what he said Lok knew, and Chan’s answer was: “ That we helped find four other bidders to make up the five- bidder requirement.” When asked if there was anything else, he said “No”. 540. Innovix submitted that Lok had more relevant knowledge than Siu and that if it is found that Siu had sufficient knowledge to render Innovix privy to an agreement to submit a non-genuine bid, then there must be reasonable cause for the Commission to believe that Lok had sufficient knowledge to take the case out of the definition of bid-rigging. I do not accept this submission. The following critical facts were known to Siu but not to Lok: (1) Hung provided the completed tender documents to Innovix only on the morning of 18 July 2016 and asked Innovix to print and sign them to “help BT to bid for Dell deal”.

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V (2) Hung had already inserted the bid price for Innovix’s bid and virtually completed the documentation without reference to Innovix. (3) Hung had not sent any Technical Proposal to Siu (it was put into Innovix’s bid privately by Hung). (4) Siu did not know the cost price for Innovix of the product tendered and did not discuss it with Hung at all. (5) Siu dealt with the tender documents so perfunctorily that he did not even notice the product offered was a Dell-Nutanix solution. (6) Innovix’s bid was submitted with no intention on its part to win the tender but only for the purpose of helping BT. 541. Tech‑21 complained about the absence of discovery made from Lok’s mobile phone which was in fact seized by the police in July 2017 in connection with an offence committed by Lok at that time which was wholly unconnected with the subject matter of these proceedings. However, it has not been indicated how such disclosure would have any bearing on this case. Moreover, screenshots from Lok’s mobile phone were in fact disclosed to the respondents and the textual communication between Lok and Percy Ng and Chan had also been disclosed by BT. 542. On the evidence, I find that Lok did not understand from his conversation with Chan about the Compliance List that Chan was helping other companies to fill in the document. But even if Lok had understood from the context that Chan was seeking to help Nutanix to help the four named companies to tender with a view to meeting YWCA’s requirement of five bids, this would not prevent the agreements from constituting serious anti- competitive conduct, for it is common ground that one bidder can arrange for

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V independent, genuine bids to be submitted by others in response to a tender. It would not amount to express notification to Lok of the agreements to procure non-genuine bids. 543. I consider that Lok was truthful in saying that he had no knowledge that Chan or Hung was trying to procure dummy bids from the four other companies for the purposes of the second tender. I also accept Lok’s evidence that he believed the four companies suggested by Chan would be capable of and genuinely interested in bidding in the second tender. 544. On the evidence, the Commission has in my view established that it was not expressly notified to Lok, and that Lok was not aware, at any time before 18 July 2016, that there was any agreement to procure non-genuine bids just to make up the numbers. (c) Reasonable cause for belief as to knowledge 545. There remains the question, as between the Commission and Innovix, whether, at the time of commencement of these proceedings (23 March 2017), the Commission did not have reasonable cause to believe that the relevant agreements had been made known to YWCA. Again, the person that Innovix had focussed upon was Lok. 546. Based on the materials available to the Commission at that stage: (1) There was no contemporaneous document that indicated that YWCA was notified or in any way knew that it would receive non-genuine bids from SiS, Innovix, Tech‑21 or iCON. (2) Chan had been interviewed by the Commission though he had not made his statement yet. In his interview Chan suggested that

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V Lok knew that Hung had arranged for four companies to submit bids in the second tender, but he did not suggest that Lok was told or otherwise knew that these would be dummy bids, non- genuine bids, bids not intended to win, or bids whose prices were determined by Hung with knowledge of BT’s. (3) There was nothing to suggest that Lok was privy to any of the email communications between Chan and Hung, including those in which Chan gave Hung BT’s bid prices or requested the 30% mark-up for the friends. Nor was there anything to suggest Lok was privy to Chan’s email to Percy Ng in which Chan said he had asked Hung to provide “dummy bids”. (4) In his statements and interviews with the Commission, Lok was clear that he had no knowledge of any false bids. Innovix criticised as incredible Lok’s statement in the interview on 23 February 2017 that he “doubted he had much communicated with [Chan]” (emphasis added). It is, however, not surprising that Lok could not remember the number of communications he had with Denis Chan, nor is the context of that particular note entirely clear. Lok told the Commission he was “certain” he had not asked Chan to submit any “false” bid. His evidence on this has been consistent throughout. Innovix commented that the interview note did not say the agreements were not made known to Lok, but Chan had never suggested that any agreement to procure false bids was disclosed to Lok. (5) It was argued that since Lok gave BT preferential treatment and inside information and allowed BT to take part in the design of the technical specifications, he could not conceivably have understood BT or Nutanix would have procured “competitive bids” compared to BT. One can readily accept that Lok believed BT would have a good chance of winning, but this is no basis to

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V think that he was notified or otherwise knew that the other bids would be not genuine in the way already described. (6) The respondents submitted that in his interview with the Commission, Mak had mentioned his “suspicions” of potential involvement of employees in ISD. In fact the note said Mak and Gary Sze (Director of Finance and Administration) had “not discussed their suspicions with the IT department”. This was consistent with Mak’s explanation in his evidence, which I accept, that what he meant was he did not tell his colleagues in the IT department about the suspicious features found in the tender documents (such as spelling mistakes). While this was in a section headed “Potential Involvement of other employees in YWCA?” and shows that the Commission was indeed investigating that possibility with YWCA, I accept the Commission’s submission that there was no additional material there which overall gave YWCA basis for believing that any its employees were involved. (7) It was also submitted that the Commission must itself have suspected at some stage that ISD staff or Lok was involved. Even assuming this was the case, one must distinguish between pursuing all reasonable lines of suspicion or inquiries at the investigative stage and forming an overall belief based on the entire body of available material at the stage of commencement of proceedings. (8) Innovix further referred to the Request for Support from Principal (see §126 above). The evidence is that Mak decided to include that document in the second tender to try to maximise the number of responses, as he was concerned that potential tenderers might think YWCA had already chosen a seller. I do not think the document could give rise to any basis for the Commission to

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V believe that YWCA or its employees had knowledge of any anticompetitive arrangements. (9) The possibility that Lok might have asked Chan to get help from Nutanix or Hung to encourage more people to submit bids in the second tender does not tend to show that the agreements for dummy bids were made known to Lok. 547. Ultimately, it seems to me there was nothing that should have led the Commission to believe that Lok, let alone anyone else in YWCA, had been expressly notified of the alleged agreements. In my view there was no reasonable cause for the Commission, as at the date of commencement of proceedings, to believe that the agreements it intended to impugn had been made known to YWCA. (5) The definition of bid‑rigging applied 548. Accordingly, the elements of the definition of bid-rigging apply to the conduct in question as follows. 549. In respect of the agreement between Nutanix and BT: (1) There was an agreement. (2) It was made between two undertakings, namely, Nutanix and BT. (3) The bids of Innovix and Tech‑21 submitted to YWCA were the direct, intended result of the agreement. They were arrived at by that agreement (as well as by the individual agreements between Nutanix and each of Innovix and Tech‑21). (4) The agreement was not made known to YWCA before those bids were submitted.

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V 550. In respect of the agreement between Nutanix, BT and Innovix: (1) There was an agreement. (2) It was made between three undertakings, namely, Nutanix, BT and Innovix. (3) Innovix’s bid was arrived at by this agreement. (4) The agreement was not made known to YWCA before Innovix’s bid was submitted. 551. In respect of the agreement between Nutanix and Tech‑21: (1) There was an agreement. (2) It was made between two undertakings, namely, Nutanix and Tech‑21. (3) Tech‑21’s bid was arrived at by this agreement. (4) The agreement was not made known to YWCA before Tech-21’s bid was submitted. 552. Coupled with the fact that, as found above, the agreements, examined in the context of the second tender, had the object of preventing, restricting or distorting competition, it follows that the agreements in question constituted bid-rigging and thus serious anti-competitive conduct within the meaning of the Ordinance, and that no warning notice was required before the commencement of these proceedings.

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M. SUMMARY AND CONCLUSION 553. In summary, this Tribunal finds as follows. As these proceedings, which are brought by the Commission seeking orders for pecuniary penalties, involve the determination of a criminal charge within the meaning of Art. 11 of the Bill of Rights, the applicable standard of proof required of the Commission is proof beyond reasonable doubt. 554. Nutanix (through Hung) and BT (through Chan) made an agreement to procure the submission of four dummy bids (i.e. non-genuine bids) to YWCA in its second tender for Nutanix equipment in July 2016. BT knew Nutanix would approach SiS, Innovix, Tech-21 and one other firm to procure them to put in bids just to make up the numbers. BT provided Nutanix with BT’s own tender documents including its bid prices in order to assist. 555. Pursuant to that agreement, Hung approached Shek (SiS) with the tender documents he had prepared including the bid price which was substantially higher than BT’s. Shek agreed to submit the bid in the name of SiS. It was not intended to win but just to make up the numbers. Shek signed the tender documents and stamped them with SiS’s company chop. 556. Shek’s conduct, however, is not attributable to SiS. Shek was a junior employee whose general duties did not include submission of tender or even provision of any binding quotation, and had no authority to bind SiS in

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V relation to any commercial commitment. SiS was a distributor whose business did not include sale to end-users. The Commission also failed to show that Shek’s seniors were cognisant of his arrangements with Hung, as Shek alleged. The Commission’s application in relation to the alleged agreement between Nutanix and SiS must therefore be dismissed. 557. Pursuant to the agreement with BT, Nutanix approached Innovix with the tender documents already prepared including the bid price which was substantially higher than BT’s, stating in the email: “We help BT to bid for Dell deal”. Innovix agreed to submit the bid which was not intended to win but to help BT’s bid. Accordingly there was a trilateral agreement or concerted practice between Nutanix, BT and Innovix. 558. Pursuant to the agreement with BT, Nutanix approached Tech-21 with the tender documents already prepared including the bid price which was substantially higher than BT’s. Tech-21 agreed to submit a bid which was not intended to win but to help someone else’s bid. 559. The bilateral agreement between Nutanix and BT, the trilateral agreement between Nutanix, BT and Innovix, and the bilateral agreement between Nutanix and Tech-21, each had the object of preventing, restricting or distorting competition in Hong Kong. 560. The exclusion of agreements of lesser significance under s 5 of Schedule 1 to the Ordinance had not been properly raised and it was not open to Tech-21 to rely on it. 561. Further, each of the three agreements falls within the definition of “bid-rigging” and, as such, within the definition of “serious anti-competitive

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V conduct” in the Ordinance because, in particular, there was a submission of bids that were arrived at by these agreements which were made between two or more undertakings and had not been made known to YWCA before the submission of the bids. Nor did the Commission have reasonable cause to believe this was not the case at the time of commencement of the proceedings. Accordingly, the Commission was not required to issue a warning notice to any of the respondents before issuing proceedings, and these proceedings do not fail for want of a warning notice. 562. Nutanix, BT, Innovix and Tech-21 are therefore persons who have contravened the first conduct rule and liable to have orders made against them accordingly. The application as against SiS (and as against Nutanix in relation to the alleged agreement with SiS) is dismissed. The orders that should be made consequent upon the Tribunal’s findings and conclusions are to be dealt with in a further hearing.

(Godfrey Lam) President of the Competition Tribunal

Mr Mark Hoskins QC, Mr Peter Duncan SC and Ms Catrina Lam, instructed by Winston & Strawn, for the Applicant

Mr Matthew Gearing (Solicitor Advocate), instructed by Latham & Watkins, for the 1st Respondent

Mr Charles Hollander and Mr Law Man‑chung, instructed by Baker McKenzie, for the 2nd Respondent

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V Mr Gerard McCoy SC and Mr Timothy Parker, instructed by Norton Rose Fulbright, for the 3rd Respondent

Mr Paul Shieh SC, Ms Eva Sit and Mr Joshua Chan, instructed by Linklaters, for the 4th Respondent

Ms Cindy Kong, instructed by Fongs, for the 5th Respondent

' I ( : ! I The Economics of Collusion Cartels and Bidding Rings I \ Robert C. Marshall and Leslie M. Marx I ! t j } ', ! I , 1 I ! 1. ) ► l I l ·t' The MIT Press Cambridge, Massachusetts London, England

Title: Royal Institute of British Architects

Complainant:

Complaint against: Royal Institute of British Architects (RIBA) Case closed: 14 March 2003 Issue: Whether RIBA’s guidance to clients on fees restrict competition Relevant provision: Chapter I of CA98

Outline of the case

The Office of Fair Trading has concluded that the Royal Institute of British Architects (RIBA) has demonstrated that revisions to its guidance to clients on fees have addressed competition concerns highlighted in the OFT report ‘Competition in professions’ published in March 20011 and the subsequent progress statement.2 The report called on RIBA to justify its fee guidance as benefiting consumers or to remove it. The report indicated that the fee guidance issued by RIBA could facilitate collusion.

RIBA sought to justify the existence of its fee guidance on the basis that it could not restrict competition because it was merely indicative and that it was a useful yardstick by which clients who may be ignorant of what a reasonable charge was could forecast the cost of architectural services.

OFT considers that architects that are members of RIBA are likely to be undertakings within the terms of the Chapter I prohibition. RIBA is an association of these undertakings. Circulation of guidance on fees issued by an association of undertakings or a professional body may encourage tacit collusion as it is likely to provide a lead on prices which may hinder the ability or incentive of efficient firms to compete by reducing price to reflect their lower costs3. It may also protect those who are less efficient and reduce the incentive to improve. The fact that the guidance was in the form of an indication rather than a binding decision did not prevent it from being a decision by an association of undertakings.

RIBA has amended and revised its fee guidance. New fee guidance is based on historical information and the collation of price trends which do not provide a

1 OFT 328, at paragraph 50 2 OFT 385, at paragraph 38 3 This approach is apparent in a number of the European Commission and Court of Justice decisions e.g. Verband der Sachversicherer e.V. v Commission, Case C-45/85, point 26, Case C-8/72 Vereeiniging van Cementhandelaren v Commission [1972] ECR 977, [1973] CMLR 7, points 19-21, IV/34.983-FENEX.

lead on this year’s prices. The historical information is collated and aggregated by an independent body. OFT considers that this change meets the competition concerns expressed in the report and progress statement and in subsequent correspondence with RIBA.

OFT’s action: Case closed Case Officer: Grahame.Horgan@oft.gsi.gov.uk Juliette.Twumasi-Anokye@oft.gsi.gov.uk Case reference: GP/908

Title: Alleged price fixing of Volkswagen replacement spare parts

Complainant: A private consumer Complaint against: Volkswagen dealers and Volkswagen Group UK Limited Case closed: 19 March 2003 Issue: Whether agreements existed between Volkswagen and its franchised dealers to fix the resale prices of replacement parts to customers in the UK Relevant provision: Chapter I of CA’98

Outline of the case

In June 2002, the OFT received a complaint from a consumer about the price of spare parts, based on a letter he had received from a Volkswagen (VW) dealer. This letter stated that the prices charged by VW franchised dealers were governed and set by the manufacturer.

On the basis of this complaint, The OFT carried out an extensive investigation, obtaining evidence from a representative sample of VW franchised dealers throughout the UK.

The OFT has completed its investigation into this complaint, and has found no evidence of resale price maintenance.

OFT’s action: Case Closed Case Officer: Stephan.pukas@oft.gsi.gov.uk Geoffrey.kenton@oft.gsi.gov.uk Case reference: CE/1637/02

[1997] E.C.C. 469 RE FEES IMPOSED BY THE RENNES BAR (Decision 96-D-79) BEFORE THE CONSEIL DE LA CONCURRENCE (French Competition Council) 469 1996 Refees imposed by the Rennes Bar French Competition (The President, M. Barbeau; M. Cortesse, Vice-President; M. Rocca, Council Member) 3 December 1996 Restrictive practices. Anti-competitive practices. Advocates. List of fees earned. Procedure. Under section 13 of the Freedom of Prices and Competition Ordinance 1986, the Competition Council may order those concerned to discontinue anti- competitive practices within a specified period or may impose special conditions. It can order a defendant to refrain from compiling and distributing a fee scale. For the purpose of assessing the fine, the gravity of the practices must be assessed by reference to the fact that the document in question was circulated to all members of the bar, and that representation in certain proceedings by an avocat is mandatory. [18]-[21] In France the profession of avocat is organised into bars attached to every Tribunal de Grande Instance. Each bar is governed by a bar council and is responsible for dealing with all questions relating to the practice of the profession, in particular admission, discipline and etiquette. Any decision of the bar which is ultra vires or contrary to any statutory provision is, on the Public Prosecutor's application, annulled by the appeal court. Individual decisions may be appealed to the appeal court by the individual concerned. A vocats are free to fix their own fees. There are some scale fees, but otherwise, pursuant to the Advocates Act 1971, fees are to be agreed by the avocat with the client. Contingency fees are prohibited. Any disputes about fees are to be resolved by the bar council, from which decision there lies an appeal to the Court of Appeal. At the end of 1989, the Rennes Bar drew up and distributed a report on the profession, in which is listed the average fees received by members during 1988 for about 60 individual legal services. There was a declaration that the list had been compiled on the basis of taxation of costs results and that it had no binding force, but was intended as a guide for clients. The tariffs used were not shown, nor did the list go into details of what had had to be done to earn each fee. The Council found the bar to be guilty of anti-competitive practices and fined it 40,000 FF.

470 1996 Refees imposed by the Rennes Bar French Competition Council Decision EUROPEAN COMMERCIAL CASES No cases were referred to in the decision. DECISION I. Findings A. The profession of advocate [1] The profession of advocate is governed by the Act of 31 December 1971, as amended, reforming certain judicial and legal professions. The profession is organised in bars attached to every tribunal de grande instance.! Each bar is a civil-law person and is administered by a local bar council, the members of which are elected for three years by secret ballot of all the advocates admitted to the local bar, trainee advocates who have taken the oath before 1 January of the year during which the election is held, and honorary advocates belonging to the local bar. The local bar council is headed by a biitonnier who is elected for two years and who represents the bar in all civil-law matters. It falls to him to prevent or, as the case may be, attempt to settle professional disputes between members of the bar and to examine complaints by third parties. [2] The tasks of the local bar council are laid down by section 17 of the abovementioned Act. It is responsible for dealing with all questions connected with the practice of the profession, ensuring the fulfilment by advocates of their obligations and protecting their rights. In particular, it is required: to adopt and, if necessary, amend the internal rules, to decide on the admission of advocates to the bar ... to enforce discipline ... to uphold the principles of probity, impartiality, temperateness and fellowship upon which the profession rests and to exercise the supervision necessary for the sake of the reputation and in the interest of its members ... to ensure that advocates are punctilious at hearings and that their conduct befits responsible officers of the court ('auxi/iaires de justice') .... [3] On application by the Public Prosecutor, any resolution or decision of a local bar council which is ultra vires or contrary to provisions of statute law or subordinate legislation is annulled by the appeal court. Resolutions or decisions of a local bar council which are likely to damage the professional interests of an advocate may be referred to the appeal court on application by the person concerned. Likewise, decisions of a local bar council concerning inclusion on the roll of advocates or the register of trainees, or concerning the omission of or refusal to omit a name from the roll or the register may be referred to the appeal court by the Public Prosecutor or the person concerned. [3] Under sections 22 et seq. of the Act of 31 December 1971, the local bar council, sitting as a disciplinary council, has power to I First instance court with general jurisdiction in civil and commercial matters. Ed.

[1997] E.C.C. 469 prosecute and punish offences and misconduct by advocates who are on the roll or the register of trainees. It acts of its own motion or at the request of the Public Prosecutor or on the initiative of the batonnier. The local bar council may provisionally suspend from his duties an advocate against whom criminal or disciplinary proceedings are brought. It may terminate such suspension in the same way or at the request of the person concerned. Decisions of the local bar council in disciplinary matters may be referred to the appeal court by the advocate concerned or the Public Prosecutor. Any court which considers that an advocate has failed at a hearing to fulfil the obligations imposed on him by his oath may refer the matter to the Public Prosecutor with a view to prosecution before the council of the local bar to which the advocate belongs. [4] Pursuant to section 1 of the Ordinance of 1 December 1986, advocates are free to fix their fees. With the exception of the scale fees for dealing with procedural matters governed by the rules of civil procedure, section 10 of the Act of 31 December 1971 provides that: fees for consultation, assistance, advice, drafting private deeds and for oral pleadings shall be fixed by agreement with the client. In default of an agreement between the advocate and his client, the fee shall be fixed in accordance with custom, depending on the client's financial situation, the difficulty of the matter, the costs incurred by the advocate, his reputation and the care taken by him. It shall be prohibited to fix fees by reference solely to the outcome of proceedings. An agreement which, in addition to the remuneration for services supplied, provides for a supplementary fee to be fixed by reference to the result obtained or the service supplied, shall be lawful. [5] Disputes which may arise between an advocate and his client concerning the amount and the recovery of fees are regulated by sections 174 et seq. of the Decree of 27 Novemer 1991. Complaints are submitted to the batonnier by either party: there are no formal requirements. Under section 175, the biitonnier must acknowledge receipt of the complaint. He must take a decision within three months, failing which he must refer the dispute to the first. president of the appeal court. Pursuant to section 176, an appeal against the batonnier's decision may be made to the first president of the appeal court. If there is no appeal, the biitonnier's decision may be made enforceable by order of the president of the tribunal de grande instance on application by the advocate or his client. [6] Finally, section 183 ofthe Decree of 27 November 1991 provides that "any contravention of professional rules and any lapse from probity ... shall expose the advocate responsible to disciplinary sanctions". A list of the sanctions, which are imposed by the local bar council subject to review by the appeal court, is given in section 184 of the Decree. They range from warning and reprimand to a temporary prohibition on practising (which must not exceed three years), striking off the roll or the register of trainees, and the withdrawal of honorary membership. In short, the law gives the client a right of challenge which must be adjudicated upon by the bationnier, and failure to observe the 471 1996 Refees imposed by the Rennes Bar French Competition Council Decision

472 1996 Refees imposed by the Rennes Bar French Competition Council Decision EUROPEAN COMMERCIAL CASES duty of moderation with regard to the amount of fees may give rise to disciplinary proceedings by the local bar council. B. The facts to be assessed [7] At the end of 1989 the Rennes bar drew up and distributed a document entitled Ordre des Avocats a fa Cour d'Appef de Rennes, consisting of a general account of the profession of advocate, the members of the roll of advocates for the 1989 legal year, information on the permanent services of the local bar and a "list of average fees received by advocates of Rennes in the course of 1988 for different legal services". In this connection the document showed the fees for more than 60 kinds of legal service. Some of the details in the list are as follows: I. Fixed costs for each matter (not applied to procedural acts) Cost of opening the file: 500 FF Letters (court and by post): 22 FF Photocopies: 3 FF per sheet. Telephone: according to post office tariff. II. Taking steps Oral consultation: 350 FF Sending a report: 300 FF Lodging appeal (criminal): 400 FF III. Appeal court Civil, commercial or social chamber: 4,500 FF Criminal chamber: 3,000 FF Criminal chamber, with claim for damages by third party: 3,500 FF Summary proceedings before first president: 2,200 FF Judge preparing case for hearing: Advance for costs: 3,000 FF Other interlocutory matters: 2,000 FF IV. Administrative court Main issue: 4,500 FF Application in summary proceedings: 2,000 FF Defence in summary proceedings: 1,800 FF V. Tribunal de grande instance' General law matter: 4,000 FF Commercial property court: 4,000 FF XI. Industrial tribunal Conciliation: 1,800 FF Whether conciliation or decision: 3,000 FF Summary proceedings: 2,500 FF Judgment: 3,000 FF XII. Children's court Hearing in chambers: 1,800 FF Court: 2,500 FF Court, with claim for damages by third party: 3,000 FF

[1997] E.C.C. 469 XIII. Miscellaneous Attachment of salary: 1,000 FF Order for payment (without objection by debtor): 1,000 FF Obtaining evidence: 1,800 FF Meeting with expert (Rennes or district): 1,800 FF Travel expenses: 2 FF per kilometre [8] The document does not state whether the amounts shown for fees include or exclude taxes. [9] By declaration of 12 April 1994, the biitonnier in office at that date stated that the list of fees had been published in 1989 and that it had been drawn up by a "fees committee", functioning in the local bar council, with the authority of the biitonnier. It also appears from the declaration that the list was distributed "to all advocates belonging to the Rennes bar, and it could also have been supplied by the secretarial office of the bar to anyone requesting it". The biitonnier added that the fee list had been compiled on the basis of the results of taxations of costs, that it had no binding force and that it was intended "for clients ... as a first approach towards the proposed fees and for advocates as an incentive to exercise a certain moderation". Finally he observed that the list "could be applied to fees received by trainee advocates or assistants for their own clients". [10] By declaration of 20 November 1995 the biitonnier in office at that date stated that "the Rennes bar thought it would be appropriate to compile and distribute the document (in 7,000 copies) ... with the object of informing the public of the orders of magnitude of fees charged". He also pointed out that the list "shows fees recorded a posteriori. They are results recorded in a competitive market. The tariffs used by different colleagues are not distinguished individually. Averages of this kind certainly cannot be used as a reference for authorising the fixing of fees. The fees in every case depend on the extent of the measures to be taken and the complexity of the matter, the advocate's reputation, the client's financial situation, the interests at issue or legal proceedings, and the results obtained". [11] In its observations in reply to the notification of complaints, the Rennes bar stated that "the fees charged by an advocate depend on such diverse factors that, although quoting an average fee has the advantage of informing the public of an order of magnitude, it cannot constitute a useful criterion for the advocate ... Observation of the facts shows wide variations in the fees actually charged in matters of the same kind, which is not surprising in view of the criteria laid down by law and the very competitive nature of the market". The Rennes bar concludes from this that "these findings could lead us to question the advisability of publishing a list of fees showing, for the previous year, an average which in very many cases might appear rather remote from reality. However, ... with a view to transparency and as a one-off project, which has not been repeated, the local bar cQuncil of Rennes only aimed to give the public certain orders of magnitude". 473 19% Refees imposed by the Rennes Bar French Competition Council Decision

474 1996 Refees imposed by the Rennes Bar French Competition Council Decision EUROPEAN COMMERCIAL CASES II. On the basis of the foregoing findings, the council, With regard to the practices found: [12] At the end of 1989 the local bar council of Rennes compiled and distributed to its members a document entitled Ordre des A vocats a fa Cour d'Appef de Rennes, containing a "list of average fees received by advocates of Rennes in the course of 1988 for different legal services". This list showed more than 60 kinds of service which could be provided in connection with various legal proceedings, together with the "average fees", but without indicating whether these included taxes or not. [13] In reply to the notification of complaints, the local bar council stated that in 1989 it instructed "a committee to compile the list offees and to ascertain, on the basis of taxing orders made by the biitonnier or his representatives, the average fees charged in the course of the previous year", adding that "the method appeared reliable. Firstly, there are sufficient taxing orders to constitute an appropriate sample. Secondly, they are usually made at the request of advocates without objection from their clients, so that they are not connected with the files which might appear not to give much information". [14] However, the representative of the local bar council of Rennes stated at a sitting that the committee's work was based on 154 taxing orders made in 1988, and because of the number of services mentioned in the document in question and the size of the sample, the figures presented could not be identified in a list of fees, as the representative admitted at the sitting. [15] The local bar council points out that the document was brought to the notice of all the members of the Rennes bar and that, "with the object of informing the public of the orders of magnitude of fees charged", 7,000 copies were published and supplied by the secretarial office of the local bar council to anyone requesting a copy. It adds that "observation of the facts shows wide variations in the fees actually charged in matters of the same kind, which is not surprising in view of the criteria laid down by law and the very competitive nature of the market". Therefore, according to the local bar council, the fee scale could not have had an anti-competitive object or effect. [16] However, by distributing the document in question the Rennes bar might have led its members to fix their fees on the basis of the figures reproduced in the list, instead of by reference to the terms and conditions of their own chambers. Furthermore, in his statement of 12 April 1994 the bdtonnier observed that the list was intended "for clients ... as a first approach towards the proposed fees and for advocates as an incentive to exercise a certain moderation ... Bearing in mind that since 1 January 1992 it has been possible to pay advocates a salary, the list could be applied to fees received by trainee advocates or assistants for their own clients". In this way the list of fees could have had an anti-competitive effect. [17] Having regard to all the foregoing circumstances, it appears that

[1997] E.C.C. 469 although "the list of average fees received by advocates of Rennes in the course of 1988 for different legal services", which was compiled by the local bar council of Rennes, published in 7,000 copies and distributed to the members of the Rennes bar, did not have the object of distorting competition in the market in question, it could have been used at least until the beginning of 1992 as a reference by all advocates and could have been applied in particular to the fees received by trainee advocates or assistants. The biitonnier also admitted that the list of fees was for advocates "an incentive to exercise a certain moderation". Therefore the list, which was identifiable as a reference scale, constituted a concerted action which may have had the effect of distorting competition under conditions contrary to section 7 of the Ordinance of 1 December 1986. Sanctions [18] Pursuant to section 13 of the Ordinance of 1 December 1986: the Competition Council may order those concerned to discontinue anti-competitive practices within a specified period or may impose special conditions. It may impose a pecuniary sanction to apply immediately or in the event of failure to comply with injunctions. The pecuniary sanctions shall be proportionate to the gravity of the acts alleged, to the extent of the damage caused to the economy and to the size of the enterprise or organisation on which the sanction is imposed. Fines shall be determined individually for each enterprise or organisation on which sanctions are imposed and the grounds of each sanction shall be stated. For an enterprise, the maximum sanction shall be 5 per cent of the total turnover before taxes in France for the last complete accounting period. If the offender is not an enterprise, the maximum shall be 10 million FF ... The Competition Council may order publication of its decision in newspapers or publications designated by it, public notification in places specified by it and the inclusion of the decision in the report on the year's trading by the directors of the enterprise. Costs shall be paid by the person concerned. [19] In accordance with the above section 13, the local bar council of Rennes must be ordered to refrain from compiling and distributing a fee scale and informing the members of the bar thereof. [20] To assess the damage to the economy, it should be observed that the document in question gave the details of fees for some 60 services relating to the most common types of proceedings before different courts. [21] The gravity of the practices must be assessed by reference to the fact that the document entitled "list of average fees received" was distributed to all the members of the Rennes bar. Furthermore, representation by an advocate in different legal proceedings is mandatory. Finally, the local bar council of Rennes could not have been unaware of the Ordinance of 1 December 1986. [22] For the year 1995 the resources of the Rennes bar totalled 1,524,540 FF. On the basis of the factors assessed above, the Rennes bar must be ordered to pay a pecuniary sanction of 40,000 FF. 475 1996 Refees imposed by the Rennes Bar French Competition Council Decision

476 1996 Refees imposed by the Rennes Bar French Competition Council Decision EUROPEAN COMMERCIAL CASES [23] The Competition Council therefore decides: Article 1. It has been shown that the Rennes bar infringed section 7 of the Ordinance of 1 December 1986. Article 2. The Rennes bar is ordered, firstly, to refrain from compiling and distributing a "list of average fees received" and, secondly, to send a copy of this decision, by registered letter with acknowledgement of receipt, to all advocates constituting the Rennes bar, within two months of notification of the decision. Article 3. The Rennes bar is ordered to pay a pecuniary sanction of 40,OOOFF.

1

Section 44 of the Competition Act (Cap. 50B) Statement of Decision pursuant to Regulation 9 of the Competition Regulations 2007

Application for Decision by the Singapore Medical Association in relation to its Guideline on Fees pursuant to section 44 of the Competition Act

18 August 2010

(Case number: CCS 400/001/09)

I. INTRODUCTION 1. On 5 February 2009, the Competition Commission of Singapore (―CCS‖) received an application for decision (the ―Application‖) from the Singapore Medical Association (―SMA‖), filed under section 44 of the Competition Act (Cap. 50B) (the ―Act‖). The Application sought a decision from CCS as to whether the SMA‘s Guideline on Fees (―GOF‖), the fourth edition of which was issued in 2006, infringed Section 34 of the Act. Section 34 prohibits agreements between undertakings, decisions by associations of undertakings and concerted practices, which have as their object or effect the prevention, restriction or distortion of competition within Singapore, unless they are exempted or excluded (―the section 34 prohibition‖). 2. On 16 June 2010, CCS issued a Statement of Decision (Provisional) to SMA. In accordance with Regulation 11(1) of the Competition (Notification) Regulations 2007, SMA was given up to 30 July 2010 to make written representations to CCS. As no representation was received from SMA by the stipulated deadline, this Provisional Statement of Decision has now become a final Statement of Decision. As SMA has withdrawn the GOF since 1 April 2007, no further action or direction by CCS is required in respect of this Statement of Decision.

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SMA had also applied to the Minister for Trade and Industry on 28 October 2008 to exclude the GOF from the application of the section 34 prohibition of the Act on grounds of ―exceptional and compelling reasons of public policy‖. On 3 June 2010, the Minister for Trade and Industry, after careful consultation with the Ministry of Health, declined to exclude the GOF from the Act. II. BACKGROUND (a) SMA

SMA is an association of medical practitioners in Singapore, formed in

extending to non-medical practitioners. Figures furnished by SMA1 show that as at 31 January 2009, 4,602 2 of the 7,969 registered medical practitioners in Singapore were members of SMA. SMA thus claimed that it represents the majority of medical practitioners in Singapore3.

According to SMA, its objectives are to4: i) promote the medical and allied sciences in Singapore; ii) maintain the honour and interests of the medical profession; iii) foster and preserve the unity and aim of purpose of the medical profession as a whole; iv) voice its opinion and acquaint the Government and other relevant bodies with the policies and attitudes of the profession; v) support a higher standard of medical ethics and conduct; vi) enlighten and direct public opinion on problems of health in Singapore; and vii) publish papers, journals and other materials in furtherance of these objectives.

SMA is managed by the SMA Council, which is elected by and answerable to SMA‘s general membership at its Annual General Meetings 5 . The SMA Council appoints various committees to deal with a range of matters. One of these committees was the GOF Committee, which was tasked with developing and revising the GOF. (b) The GOF

The GOF recommended ranges of professional fees for an array of services 1 SMA‘s letter to CCS dated 28 May 2009, at ¶1.1. According to SMA, the figures were obtained from the Singapore Medical Council. 2 Of this figure, 2,132 were from private practice, 2,432 were from the public sector while 38 were from the National University of Singapore. 3 Form 1 filed by SMA on 5 February 2009, at ¶1.1.2. 4 Form 1 filed by SMA on 5 February 2009, at ¶1.1.3. 5 SMA‘s letter to CCS dated 28 May 2009, at ¶8.1.

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(e.g., consultation services, professional services, operations and anaesthesia services) provided by doctors in private practice in Singapore. According to SMA, a range of fees was recommended for most procedures or operations, rather than a fixed rate, as the actual fees to be charged to patients would depend on variable factors such as the level of expertise, complexity, or time required6. 8. The first edition of the GOF was published in 1987. According to SMA, the GOF was promulgated at that time following complaints from the public about over-charging by medical practitioners, following which the Ministry of Health (―MOH‖) agreed that there was a need for a schedule of recommended fees for private medical practitioners. According to SMA, the GOF was meant to provide patients with greater transparency on healthcare costs, thereby allowing patients to make an informed choice on private medical practitioners7. 9. Subsequent editions of the GOF were published in 1992, 2000 and March 2006 8. According to SMA, there was no explicit criterion for deciding to undertake each review of the GOF. When the SMA Council felt that business costs had increased to the point where the prevailing GOF faced the risk of being less relevant, the SMA Council would instruct the GOF Committee to undertake a review9. On average, the GOF was revised once every five years as SMA felt that five years was a reasonable time to re-look the GOF given that healthcare inflation has always been higher than general inflation10. 10. With each revision, various changes were made to reflect new procedures in light of advancements in medical science, remove obsolete procedures, reclassify procedures to take account of technological advancements and re-price the fee ranges of surgical groups to take account of rising business costs11. 11. The fourth edition of the GOF, published in March 2006, was the latest edition of the GOF. On 1 April 200712, SMA withdrew the GOF in view of concerns that it might potentially infringe the section 34 prohibition13. 12. The fourth edition of the GOF was extensive, covering more than a thousand procedures, with only the most esoteric operations being left out14. It categorized the recommended professional fees under three major parts: i) Part One: General Consultation Fees This sets out the recommended consultation fees for the general practitioner (―GP‖) and specialists, as well as for ICU consultations.

6 SMA‘s letter to CCS dated 28 May 2009, at ¶10.1. 7 Form 1 filed by SMA on 5 February 2009, at ¶3.1.2. 8 Form 1 filed by SMA on 5 February 2009, at ¶3.1.4. 9 SMA‘s letter to CCS dated 28 May 2009, at ¶13.1. 10 SMA‘s letter to CCS dated 24 July 2009, at ¶ 3.2. 11 SMA‘s letter to CCS dated 28 May 2009, at ¶15.1. 12 Source: http://www.sma.org.sg/position/Withdrawal_SMA_Guideline_on_Fees.pdf [Accessed on 30 April 2010] 13 Form 1 filed by SMA on 5 February 2009, at ¶3.1.4. 14 SMA‘s letter to CCS dated 28 May 2009, at ¶9.1.

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ii) Part Two: Professional Fees This sets out the recommended professional fees for office surgery and medical procedures, immunisation, medical examinations and reports, court attendance and preparation, as well as the recommended professional fees for certain services from each of the following specialist fields, namely obstetrics, paediatrics, cardiology, radiology, pathology and cytopathology. iii) Part Three: Fees for Operations and Anaesthesia This sets out the recommended fees for a wide range of surgical operations, for both the surgeon and the anaesthetist. Part Three was divided into 15 different sections with each section representing a different part of the anatomy. Each section was in turn divided into different groups (e.g., Group A to Group I) of operations, in order of increasing degree of complexity. 13. A copy of the fourth edition of the GOF is attached at Annex 1. (c) Role of the GOF Committee and processes for setting the GOF’s recommended fees 14. The GOF Committee was appointed by and answerable to the SMA Council. According to SMA, the role of the GOF Committee was to conduct studies, arrange for seminars, circulate questionnaires, deliberate findings, hold consultations with members of SMA, review other guidelines similar to the GOF and make recommendations in respect of the GOF15. 15. SMA explained that the recommended ranges within the GOF were arrived at by ―a survey of current rates/pricing‖16 charged by medical practitioners in the market, to identify reasonable price ranges that would protect the interests of patients, while ensuring that doctors were reasonably remunerated for their skills set, competence, experience, specialties and quality of services17. In developing and revising the GOF, the GOF Committee appointed subcommittees based on medical specialties. Each subcommittee would review the list of operations available, which were further assigned into groups according to complexity. A suggested price range was then attached to each group18. 16. Review of the recommended fees in the GOF was an iterative process. SMA would send circulars to the general SMA membership and to all specialty bodies 19 to seek feedback on charges, procedures or operations. In addition,

15 SMA‘s letter to CCS dated 28 May 2009, at ¶8.1-8.2. 16 Form 1 filed by SMA on 5 February 2009, at ¶¶3.3.1 and 5.1.32.

17 Form 1 filed by SMA on 5 February 2009, at ¶5.1.15 and 5.1.29.

18 SMA‘s letter to CCS dated 28 May 2009, at ¶9.1. 19 According to SMA, the specialist societies and specialist interest groups in the various hospitals would typically limit their leaders to a certain term period, so that it was unlikely that the same medical practitioners would represent their interest groups for reviews for multiple editions of the GOF (there being a time lag of

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specialist groups in different private hospitals were invited to submit their feedback. The GOF Committee would then review the feedback provided before arriving at the first draft of recommended fees for different procedures or operations in the form of fee ranges. Revised drafts of the recommended fees were then re-circulated to the general SMA membership and specialty bodies for further review and comments, before submission to the SMA Council for endorsement20. 17. In response to CCS‘ query as to whether SMA sought views from any organisation or body representing the interest of consumers or patients to ensure that the fees recommended in the GOF was reasonable, SMA replied that the list of contributors to the latest edition of the GOF was listed at the back of the 4th edition of the GOF. The contributors were individual doctors, SMA Council Members of the 41st to 46th Councils, specialist interest groups in East Shore Hospital, Gleneagles Hospital, Mount Elizabeth Hospital and Raffles Hospital, medical societies, and the Law Society of Singapore21. It is apparent from the list of contributors that no organisation or body specifically representing the interest of consumers or patients contributed to the formulation of the GOF. In addition, CCS also notes that both MOH and the Singapore Medical Council (―SMC‖) had also indicated that they were not involved in these discussions22. 18. While feedback on the GOF was only sought from both the SMA members and specialist societies, SMA submitted that there were several mechanisms in place that made it unlikely for medical fees to be raised unreasonably. These mechanisms included23: i) The GOF Committee gave speciality bodies more say than individuals. The GOF Committee felt that specialty bodies were less likely to unreasonably raise fees. ii) Procedures were classified into various groups based on increasing complexities and the only way to significantly increase fees would be to move the procedure from one group to a higher group, e.g., from Group B to Group C. This was rarely allowed unless there was good justification for the procedures to be moved across groups. iii) The GOF Committee might not be familiar with the details of certain procedures. But as members of the GOF Committee include doctors in various specialities, these members would at least have some idea of what each of these procedures involved. iv) The GOF Committee would ask for more details about procedures they were unfamiliar with.

some five to seven years between the reviews of each edition): see SMA‘s letter to CCS dated 28 May 2009, at ¶14.1. 20 SMA‘s letter to CCS dated 28 May 2009, at ¶10.1. 21 SMA‘s letter to CCS dated 24 July 2009, at ¶ 2.3. 22 MOH‘s letter to CCS dated 6 April 2009: MOH‘s response to Q9. 23 SMA‘s letter to CCS dated 24 July 2009, at ¶ 2.1.

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v) There was often more than one speciality body involved in relation to each procedure. For example, for a cardiac procedure, the GOF Committee could ask the respective cardiology specialty groups in Mount Elizabeth Hospital or Gleneagles Hospital, etc. The GOF Committee could also seek the opinion of the cardiothoracic speciality group in these hospitals. In addition, there was also the national speciality body, which was independent of the speciality bodies in the hospitals. vi) The first edition of the GOF also included the following text in the introduction page: ―… [the GOF was] the result of extensive study done jointly by SMA and [Association of Private Medical Practitioners of Singapore (APMPS)] over the past five years. Seminars were held, questionnaires were sent to members, subcommittees were formed and many discussions and consultations were held. Similar guidelines include Scheme of Charges for Government Medical Services, and the Medisave Table for Surgical Procedures and those in other countries were obtained and studied and, where appropriate incorporated.‖ III. OVERVIEW OF SINGAPORE’S HEALTHCARE SECTOR 19. It is widely accepted that there is market failure in the healthcare sector which does not allow free market forces to produce efficient outcomes24. On one hand, healthcare is seen by many as a basic necessity. On the other hand, there is information asymmetry, where patients do not know enough to fully comprehend their own health conditions and needs, and hence are unable to make an informed choice. Instead, they have to rely on doctors to advise them on their treatment options. This results in a ―principal-agent‖ situation which potentially leads to ―over-charging‖, ―over-treatment‖ and/or ―over-prescription‖ by doctors to reduce risk of any complaints of negligence or to increase their earnings (―supplier- induced demand‖)25. Coupled with the importance of healthcare to a person‘s survival or long term well-being, healthcare is thus a complex and often emotive issue for the patients and their families. 20. Against this backdrop, Singapore‘s healthcare system has managed to achieve high-quality but affordable medical services through a combination of

24The phenomenon of market failures in the healthcare sector was recognised in 1963 by Nobel Laureate Kenneth Arrow in the article ―Uncertainty and the Welfare Economics of Medical Care‖. Since then, health economists generally considered that the healthcare market is likely to suffer from varying degrees of market failure in the absence of government intervention. For more details on the case of Singapore, please refer to the book Economics in Public Policy: the Singapore Story, Chapter 6 – Healthcare published by Marshall Cavendish International (Singapore) Private Limited, 2009, section entitled ―Healthcare: Not Just Another Market‖ from pages 124 – 126. 25 The concept of the principal-agent problem which leads to supplier induced demand is covered extensively in the health economics literature. Specifically, please refer to the book The Economics of Health and Health Care, Fifth Edition, Chapter 15 – The Physician’s Practice published by Pearson Education International, 2007.

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policy measures aimed at addressing or mitigating these market failures26. MOH adopts the philosophy that good and affordable basic medical services should be provided for all Singaporeans and this is mainly achieved through government subsidies to the public healthcare facilities, including restructured hospitals, specialty centres and polyclinics27. At the same time, it also takes the view that there should be individual responsibility towards healthy living and consumption of scarce medical resources. Singapore‘s healthcare financing framework, which consists of Medisave, Medishield, ElderShield and Medifund, reflects this fundamental philosophy in that patients are expected to exercise their individual choice by co-paying for part of their medical expenses and to pay more if they demand a higher level of service28. 21. In the White Paper for Affordable Healthcare29 (the ―White Paper‖), MOH recognised that with growing affluence and rising expectations, some Singaporeans would want a higher level of medical care than the government can provide in its basic package. While recognising that Singapore should rely on competition and market forces to ―impel hospitals and clinics‖ to operate efficiently, improve services and offer patients value-for-money services, MOH also believed that the there would be market failure in the healthcare sector if the industry is left unregulated. Specifically, the White Paper stated that the government will intervene to prevent over-supply, moderate demand for medical services, and create incentives to keep healthcare costs under control. Primary Care30 in Singapore 22. Primary Care involves the provision of primary medical treatment, preventive healthcare and health education. In Singapore, Primary Care is provided through an island-wide network of outpatient polyclinics and private medical practitioners‘ clinics. Today, the private sector accounts for 80% of Primary Care, with the remaining 20% provided by polyclinics31. 23. In the White Paper, MOH had acknowledged that there is sufficient competition from the private sector in the area of Primary Care, while the public sector should maintain its current market share to cater to the lower income group and the training of Primary Care physicians32.

26 For more details, please refer to the book Economics in Public Policy: the Singapore Story, Chapter 6 – Healthcare published by Marshall Cavendish International (Singapore) Private Limited, 2009, section entitled ―Healthcare: Not Just Another Market‖ from pages 133 – 135. It was also mentioned that “Despite relatively low inputs, health outcomes in Singapore are comparable if not superior to many developed countries…. Furthermore, the World Health Organisation in 2000 had ranked Singapore as having the world’s sixth best overall health system performance while the equivalent rankings for the UK and the US were only 18th and 37th respectively.” 27 Source: http://www.moh.gov.sg/mohcorp/hcsystem.aspx?id=102 [Accessed on 30 April 2010] 28 Source: http://www.moh.gov.sg/mohcorp/programmes.aspx?id=202 [Accessed on 30 April 2010] 29 White Paper on Affordable healthcare at Chapter 2: Healthcare Philosophy, pages 18-19. 30 Source: http://www.moh.gov.sg/mohcorp/hcservices.aspx?id=392 [Accessed on 30 April 2010] 31 Ibid. 32 White Paper on Affordable healthcare at Chapter 4: Supply of Doctors and Hospitals, page 32.

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Hospital Care33 in Singapore 24. MOH currently classifies Hospital Care as including multi-disciplinary acute inpatient and specialist outpatient services and 24-hour emergency services provided by the general hospitals. In addition, Hospital Care also includes the six national specialty centres for cancer, heart, eye, skin, neuroscience and dental care. 25. The public sector is the predominant provider of Hospital Care34 for the local population. The public sector provides 80% of hospital services through restructured hospitals and specialty centres which are wholly-owned by the government35. The 16 hospitals in the private sector provide the remaining 20% Hospital Care services36. In terms of specialist outpatient services, roughly 60% of specialists work in the public sector whilst the remaining 40% work in the private sector37. MOH has stated that “[t]he Government’s role as the dominant health care provider allows the Government to influence the supply of hospital beds, the introduction of high-tech/high-cost medicine, and the rate of cost increases in the public sector which sets the bench mark in terms of pricing for the private sector”38. 26. This structure therefore allows the public sector to provide affordable Hospital Care to the general population, while relying on the private sector to compete for patients who prefer to seek medical services beyond those provided in the restructured hospitals39. Other forms of Healthcare in Singapore 27. According to MOH, other than Primary Care and Hospital Care, other aspects of the healthcare system in Singapore include intermediate and long term care and dental services. These other aspects have not been considered in this Statement, as the procedures found in the GOF pertained largely to the provision of Primary and Hospital Care. Improving price transparency in Singapore

33 A distinction was made between tertiary, secondary and community hospitals in MOH‘s White Paper on Affordable Healthcare, Ministry of Health, 1993 from pages 29-31, in descending order of sophistication in the range of services provided. Currently, MOH classifies both tertiary and secondary healthcare together with specialty centres, under ―Hospital Care‖. Source: http://www.moh.gov.sg/mohcorp/hcservices.aspx?id=394 [Accessed on 30 April 2010] 34 In terms of hospital beds, about 72% of the beds are in the 13 public hospitals and speciality centres with bed complements between 185 to 2,064 beds. On the other hand, the 16 private hospitals tend to be smaller, with capacity ranging from 20 to 505 beds. 35 Ibid at footnote 33 and footnote 28. 36 In contrast to the restructured hospitals, some of these private hospitals may not offer the full suite of services such as outpatient specialists‘ services or emergency care etc. 37 Source: Page 12 of the Singapore Medical Council‘s Annual Report 2008. 38 Ibid at footnote 33. 39 One can argue that quality of healthcare services in the public sector may not be inferior to the private sector, especially given its higher caseload and complexity of cases.

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To improve pricing transparency, MOH has also undertaken various measures in disseminating price information of medical services, such as: i) requiring all private medical clinics to display their common charges as indicated by the Guidelines under the Private Hospitals and Medical Clinics Act (1980) & Regulations (1991), thereby increasing pricing transparency for consultations; ii) publishing individual hospital bill sizes on the MOH website 40 and requiring hospitals to provide financial counselling to patients, thereby increasing pricing transparency before admissions to hospitals; and iii) requiring medical bills given to patients to be itemised as indicated by the Guidelines under the Private Hospitals and Medical Clinics Act (1980) & Regulations (1991). IV. CCS’ ASSESSMENT 29. CCS takes the view that the GOF infringed the section 34 prohibition. This section details CCS‘ assessment on each requisite element of the section 34 prohibition. The next section details why SMA has failed to establish that the net economic benefit (―NEB‖) exclusion applies. 30. CCS‘ assessment is largely based on information furnished by SMA, as well as information gathered from a market study commissioned by CCS and undertaken by a consortium of consultants (―the Consultant‖) led by Drew & Napier LLC (―the Market Study‖). The Market Study takes into account the inputs, captured through notes of interview (―NOI‖), of various stakeholders in Singapore, including MOH, SMC, the hospitals (both restructured and private), various private specialist and GP clinics, various insurance companies and the Consumer Association of Singapore (―CASE‖). (a) The Section 33(4) Exclusion 31. Section 33(4) of the Act provides, inter alia, that the prohibitions embodied in the Act shall not apply to any activity carried on by, any person acting on behalf of the Government or that statutory body in relation to that activity, agreement or conduct. It is CCS‘ view that, in order for a person to be regarded as acting ―on behalf of‖ the Government or a statutory body, there must be a relationship of agency, or a relationship akin thereto between that person and the Government or statutory body. As noted in paragraph 17 above, neither MOH nor SMC was involved in the discussion pertaining to the formulation and review of GOF fee ranges. 32. CCS also notes that it is not SMA‘s position that it was acting on behalf of

40 MOH also publishes bill sizes for Ward B1, B2 and C class as well. Source: http://www.moh.gov.sg/mohcorp/billsize.aspx?id=302. [Accessed on 30 April 2010]

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MOH in formulating, issuing and reviewing the GOF fee ranges. (b) The Section 34 Prohibition 33. Section 34 of the Act reads: (1) […] agreements between undertakings, decisions by associations of undertakings or concerted practices which have as their object or effect the prevention, restriction or distortion of competition within Singapore are prohibited unless they are exempt in accordance with the provisions of this Part. (2) For the purposes of subsection (1), agreements, decisions or concerted practices may, in particular, have the object or effect of preventing, restricting or distorting competition within Singapore if they – (a) directly or indirectly fix purchase or selling prices or any other trading conditions; […] 34. The section 34 prohibition is modeled after the Chapter I prohibition of the United Kingdom (―UK‖) Competition Act 1998 and Article 101 (previously Article 81) of the Treaty on European Union (the ―EC Treaty‖). Cases from the UK and the European Union (‗EU‖) may thus be persuasive or useful in assisting CCS in arriving at its conclusions, although the value of any foreign competition case law depends very much on the overall facts and context of the case before CCS, as well as the extent to which the facts of these foreign cases are applicable to the local context. 35. CCS has also reviewed the approaches taken by competition authorities in other jurisdictions on similar issues and these cases are summarized in Annex 2. (c) Theory of harm 36. The GOF can be viewed as an explicit form of price recommendation by a professional association (SMA) which constituted a decision by an association of undertakings pursuant to section 34 of the Act. 37. The GOF might have the object or effect of preventing, restricting or distorting competition in Singapore because price recommendations, even if non- binding, generally harm the competitive process by restricting independent pricing decisions and signaling to market players what their competitors are likely to charge. When market players are able to predict the prices of their competitors with a reasonable degree of certainty, a focal point is created for fees in the market to converge, regardless of the competitors‘ individual costs. (d) Market Definition 38. In CCS‘ deliberation on the Application, market definition serves two main purposes – first, to provide a reference for assessing whether the GOF restricted competition appreciably; second, to provide a reference for assessing whether the NEB exclusion applied to the GOF.

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SMA’s submission 39. SMA, in its submission, indicated that the relevant market for the purpose of the Application is the market for medical services and procedures provided by medical practitioners in Singapore41. Product Market 40. CCS first notes that the GOF is the subject of the Application which covered a wide range of medical services and procedures, and was targeted at the private-sector medical practitioners in Singapore. Accordingly, CCS identifies the provision of medical services and procedures by medical practitioners in the private sector as the focal product42. 41. CCS then considers whether the focal product needs to be sub-divided into narrower markets. In this regard, CCS notes that MOH broadly classifies the medical services and procedures covered by the GOF into Primary and Hospital Care (see paragraphs 22-26). 42. The nature of Primary and Hospital Care services are significantly different. Patients who seek Hospital Care are likely to require specialist and/or inpatient care; while Primary Care is provided on an outpatient basis by general practitioners. As such, CCS considers Primary and Hospital Care to be in separate markets. 43. CCS then considers whether medical services and procedures provided by the public sector should be included in the relevant market for Primary and Hospital Care respectively. Primary Care 44. There could be reasons to consider private-sector Primary Care services (i.e. GPs) to be in a separate market from the public sector (i.e. SingHealth and National Healthcare Groups Polyclinics), due to the perceptions and preferences of individual patients. Common considerations include proximity, waiting time, perceived quality of services and long-term relationship (especially for family practice). Given the subsequent analysis in the section on Appreciability, CCS notes that the inclusion of the public sector in the relevant market with respect to Primary Care does not affect CCS‘ conclusion on whether the GOF was appreciably anti-competitive and whether it benefited from the NEB exclusion with respect to Primary Care. As such, CCS proceeds on the conservative basis to include the public sector.

Hospital Care

41 Form 1 filed by SMA on 5 February 2009, at ¶4.2.1. 42 CCS Guidelines on Market Definition, at ¶2.1.

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In terms of Hospital Care (i.e. in-patient and specialist out-patient services), a chain of substitution43 may exist, with private-sector services being the focal product, unsubsidised public-sector services 44 being the next-best substitute, and subsidised public-sector services 45 being an indirect substitute. However, CCS is of the view that only unsubsidised public-sector services should be included in the relevant market with respect to Hospital Care, for three reasons.

First, the service level is different. Subsidised patients are not entitled to choose their preferred doctors. The Class B2 and C wards also have more beds per ward. For out-patients, the need to obtain referral from polyclinics to qualify for subsidised rates constitutes an additional hurdle, given the extra lead-time incurred46.

Second, from the demand-side point of view, those patients who have chosen the private sector are likely to be less price-conscious, because they have opted to pay a substantial premium over unsubsidised public-sector services. While their preferences for the private sector may be partly subjective, it is likely that many of them would view unsubsidised medical services in the public sector as a more comparable substitute to private sector medical services than subsidised medical services, should these patients consider the alternatives available to them given an increase in private-sector prices of around 10%.

Third, from the supply-side point of view, the public sector is facing capacity constraints in terms of medical services to unsubsidised patients. We understand from an interview with a public health cluster that, only 20% of its capacity caters to unsubsidised patients47. Given that the public-sector healthcare groups are established under the policy mandate to provide affordable and accessible healthcare services to the mass population in Singapore, they are unlikely to be able to switch their production capacities significantly from subsidised to unsubsidised services.

For the above reasons, CCS has excluded subsidised public-sector Hospital Care services from the relevant market. However, unsubsidised services has been 43 CCS Guidelines on Market Definition, at ¶3.13-¶3.15. In particular, the existence of a chain does not mean that the whole chain should be included in the relevant market, because even if Product A is a good substitute to Product B, and Product B is a good substitute to Product C, Product A could still be a poor substitute to Product C. 44 E.g. Class A wards, as well as certain classes of patients at specialist outpatient clinics of the restructured hospitals. Source: http://www.pqms.moh.gov.sg/apps/fcd_faqmain.aspx?qst=2fN7e274RAp%2bbUzLdEL%2fmJu3ZDKARR3p5 Nl92FNtJifw8iBZoOww9Gf8%2fdLi7cbTadpIw2tF7Fdn5I9r5Y9UM9XPY37bcAtM7ZvDLVsTJgDSks74Ew7 gnY0O7OPO5%2fzDG7VL1ugrF%2fa3wpwYm%2fLw8EgQTEN2HpITreQmMf2L2f0BUIH5nRwNLV5fvxT y5jHxoEd75Hgf8LI%3d# and https://www.moh.gov.sg/mohcorp/uploadedFiles/News/Press_Releases/2010/Press%20Release_subsidy%20dist inction_annex.pdf [Accessed on 30 April 2010] 45 E.g. Class B2 and C wards, as well as certain classes of patients at specialist outpatient clinics of the restructured hospitals. Source: Ibid 46 For more details, please refer to the book Picking the Right Hospital, Right Doctor in Singapore published by Rank Books, 2006, section entitled ―Understanding Medical Cost in Singapore: An Overview‖ from pages 2 - 7. 47 See NOI with Public Health Cluster II (dated 11 June 2009) at ¶9.

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conservatively included into the relevant market together with private-sector services, as CCS recognises that many people would regard the former as credible alternatives to the latter. Importantly, this inclusion does not affect CCS‘ conclusion on whether the GOF was appreciably anti-competitive and whether it benefited from the NEB exclusion with respect to Hospital Care. Geographic market 50. CCS agrees with SMA‘s submission that the relevant geographic market is Singapore. Conclusion on market definition 51. Having considered the above, CCS concludes that there are two relevant markets (the ―Relevant Markets‖) for the purpose of assessing whether the GOF infringed the section 34 prohibition in the Act, and whether it benefited from the NEB exclusion: i) The provision of Primary Care services by medical practitioners in Singapore (the ―Primary Care Market‖); ii) The provision of unsubsidised Hospital Care services by medical practitioners in Singapore (the ―Hospital Care Market‖); and (e) Decision by an Association of Undertakings 52. The term ―undertaking‖ is defined by the Act to mean any person, being an individual, a body corporate, an unincorporated body of persons or any other entity, capable of carrying on commercial or economic activities relating to goods or services. 53. It is clear that professionals engaged in private practice, including self- employed medical practitioners, can constitute undertakings 48. A professional association such as SMA thus constitutes an ―association of undertakings‖. The fact that some members of SMA are employees of the restructured hospitals or of incorporated healthcare groups, rather than self-employed doctors in private practice, does not detract from this fact, as SMA acted as an association of undertakings when it acted on behalf of medical practitioners in the private sector, with respect to the formulation, issuance and revision of the GOF49. 54. It is also clear that the GOF, being a recommendation by SMA on the professional fees that doctors should charge, constituted a ―decision‖ by an association of undertakings. In this respect, the CCS Guidelines on the Section 34 Prohibition state:

48 Pavel Pavlov and Ors v Stichting Pensioenfonds Medische Specialisten [2000] ECR I-06451, at ¶74 to ¶77. 49 Agreements between Irish Actors’ Equity SIPTU and the Institute of Advertising Practitioners in Ireland concerning the terms and conditions under which advertising agencies will hire actors, E/04/2002 at ¶ 2.10.

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  1. 13

A decision by an association may include … its recommendations. … The key consideration is whether the object or effect of the decision, whatever form it takes, is to influence the conduct or co-ordinate the activity of the members in some commercial matter. An association‘s coordination of its members‘ conduct in accordance with its constitution may also be a decision even if its recommendations are not binding on its members, and may not have been fully complied with. 55. An instructive case on this point would be the 1996 decision of the European Commission (―EC‖) in Fenex50. This case concerned a federation of Dutch forwarding organisations, Fenex, which had a tariffs committee that drew up and updated the tariffs annually for adoption by the board of directors. The document setting out the recommended tariffs was then sent to members. The EC found that the recommendation by Fenex as to the tariffs amounted to a decision by an association of undertakings, as : [T]he drawing-up and circulation of the tariffs recommended by Fenex must be interpreted as the faithful reflection of the association‘s resolve to coordinate the conduct of its members on the relevant market. 51 56. Similarly, the UK Office of Fair Trading (―OFT‖) considered a case involving fee guidelines issued by the Royal Institute of British Architects (―RIBA‖). Following intervention by the OFT, RIBA removed its guidelines. In a case closure summary dated 14 March 2003, the OFT stated: 52: Circulation of guidance on fees issued by an association of undertakings or a professional body may encourage tacit collusion as it is likely to provide a lead on prices which may hinder the ability or incentive of efficient firms to compete by reducing price to reflect their lower costs. It may also protect those who are less efficient and reduce the incentive to improve. The fact that the guidance was in the form of an indication rather than a binding decision did not prevent it from being a decision of an association of undertakings. (f) “Object” of Restricting Competition 57. In assessing the object of a decision, CCS considers the objective meaning and purpose of the decision in the economic context in which it is to be applied53. 58. Recommendations by trade or professional associations on the fees that their members should charge can be construed as having the object of restricting price competition. For example, in Verband54, the European Court of Justice (―ECJ‖) took the view that a recommendation that laid down in mandatory terms a collective, flat-rate and across the board increase in fire insurance premiums had been made with the object of restricting competition in the industrial fire and consequential loss insurance market. Indeed, CCS is of the view that there is no reason for professional or trade associations to circulate recommended prices

50 Case 96/438/EC. 51 Ibid. 52 Royal Institute of British Architects, Case GP/908 (14 March 2003), OFT Competition Case closure summaries 1-31 March 2004. 53 Compagnie Royale Asturienne des Mines SA and Rheinzink GmbH v Commission [1984] ECR 1679 at ¶26. 54 Verband der Sachversicherer e.V. v. Commission, [1987] ECR 405 at ¶30.

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unless they intend to, at least, provide a reference for members and influence their independent pricing decisions. In this aspect, CCS believes that the GOF is no different from other fee recommendations. GOF was promulgated with the objective of influencing prices 59. CCS notes that SMA had indicated in its submissions55 that: [The GOF] together with the SMA guidelines on drug pricing markups is designed to provide a transparent system of charging that is usual, customary and reasonable. It is designed to discourage doctors from charging apparently low fees in one (usually very visible area) but having a very high mark-up. (Emphasis added) 60. CCS further notes SMA‘s submission that the GOF was not intended to facilitate price-fixing between medical practitioners. Rather, it was meant to protect the patients‘ interest, by diminishing information asymmetry between patients and medical practitioners, thereby preventing over-charging of patients. Nevertheless, the recommended fees within the GOF were stipulated as a range, with both a maximum and a minimum. CCS‘ view is that if the GOF was primarily meant to protect patients against over-charging, then the stipulation of a minimum fee would contradict that objective. 61. SMA submitted that the GOF was not intended to be an instrument to protect medical practitioners‘ incomes56. However, SMA also conceded that the GOF helped to improve transparency for young doctors, in that medical professionals are not taught how to charge when they were students in medical schools or when they underwent training in public hospitals, unlike lawyers and accountants who have the benefit of a long apprenticeship in private firms. The GOF was thus useful in helping to educate young medical practitioners entering the private sector on how to charge57. Based on the aforementioned, it would appear that one of the objectives of the GOF was to influence pricing decisions of new entrants to the markets. In particular, CCS considers that younger doctors and new entrants into the private practice were more likely to be the ones who would have charged lower prices in the absence of the GOF. 62. SMA indicated that the recommended minimum fees in the GOF would help to protect patients, in that if minimum prices were absent, doctors might be encouraged to quote a low fee for medical services but recover costs through other avenues, such as significant drug mark-ups58. CCS cannot agree with SMA‘s reasoning. In a similar vein, acceptance of SMA‘s reasoning would mean that cartelists who engaged in price fixing will be allowed to participate in price-fixing agreements as such activities will help them to earn a reasonable return on the goods or services they provide so as to reduce their incentives to exploit customers through other means.

55 SMA‘s letter to CCS dated 24 July 2009 at ¶10.1. 56 Form 1 filed by SMA on 5 February 2009, at ¶2.3.5 and ¶3.1.3. 57 SMA‘s letter to CCS dated 28 May 2009, at ¶21.2. 58 SMA‘s letter to CCS dated 5 June 2009, at ¶4.2.

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It is important to note that SMA had reiterated at several points in its Application that the GOF also served to ensure that doctors were reasonably remunerated for their skills, competence, experience, specialties and service quality. During the course of the Market Study, feedback was obtained to the effect that the problems arising from the withdrawal of the GOF included ―both under-cutting and over-charging‖ (Emphasis added)59. There was also feedback that the medical industry tended to frown upon, and informally exert some peer pressure on, those who charged below the minimum fees in the GOF60. CCS is thus of the view that the purpose of the GOF was to influence prices in the private medical services sector so that they would likely be within an acceptable range to the medical practitioners themselves. GOF restricted competition even though compliance was voluntary

SMA submitted that the recommended fee ranges in the GOF were voluntary and that medical practitioners could choose to price above or below them61. Furthermore, the introduction to the fourth edition of the GOF stated:

The fee ranges are meant as a GUIDE and should be treated as such. The practitioner should satisfy himself that the fee charged is fair and reasonable, considering the particular circumstances of the case and the patient.

Practitioners who wish to charge outside this Guideline should inform their patients accordingly to avoid subsequent misunderstanding.

Practitioners are encouraged to continue their practice of reducing or waiving fees for patients who cannot afford to pay the usual fees.

Be that as it may, even recommendations that purport to be voluntary can have the object of restricting competition. In Cementhandelaren 62, the ECJ considered a system of voluntary target prices for cement that replaced an earlier system of imposed prices, and concluded that both systems equally contravened the Article 85 (now Article 101) of the EC Treaty63. In the case of target prices, the ECJ was of the view that ―the fixing of a price, even one which merely constitutes a target, affects competition because it enables all the participants to predict with a reasonable degree of certainty what the pricing policy pursued by their competitors will be‖64. In Verband65, the ECJ found that despite the fact that the recommendation to increase fire insurance was described by the association concerned as ―non-binding‖, the mandatory terms in which it was worded, together with the empowerment of the association to coordinate the activities of its members, meant that the recommendation had the object of restricting competition.

In the present case, SMA had an Ethics and Complaints Committee that 59 See NOI with Private Hospital II (dated 17 June 2009), at ¶12. 60 See NOI with Private Specialist Clinic (Obstetrics and Gynecology) (dated 30 June 2009), at ¶7. 61 Form 1 filed by SMA on 5 February 2009, at ¶3.3.2. 62 Vereeniging van Cementhandelaren v Commission [1972] ECR 977. 63 Cementhandelaren, at ¶19. 64 Cementhandelaren, at ¶21. 65 Ibid at footnote 54.

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dealt with complaints of over-charging. In particular, SMA submitted that66: Complaints on over-charging in the past were directed to the SMA Ethics Committee and subsequently to the Complaints Committee (which was formed as an independent committee in the year 2002). The Ethics and Complaints Committee would seek an explanation from the medical practitioner involved, as well as a breakdown of fees charged for consultation, each drug dispensed, and procedure performed etc. If the charges were found to exceed the GOF, the medical practitioner would be advised to refund the difference to the patient/ complainant. 67. SMA had further elaborated that the GOF in effect created a ―price ceiling‖, and alluded to ―pressure‖ for the medical practitioner to price at the recommended fee range because of the ―moral implications‖ of being seen as over-charging67. It is thus clear that although the GOF was stated to be voluntary, SMA had an objective mechanism in place to foster compliance. Although SMA submitted that it had no recourse ―in theory‖ for non-compliance by the ―offending‖ medical practitioner, SMA had no actual experience of a medical practitioner not following SMA‘s ―recommendation‖ to provide a refund68. GOF was not based on actual price data 68. As mentioned above, SMA indicated that the GOF fee ranges were ―usual, customary or reasonable‖. However, CCS notes that, based on the fee review mechanism submitted by SMA, it is arguable whether the GOF fee ranges can be seen as an objective reflection of historical or contemporary prices charged by private medical practitioners. First, the GOF Committee surveyed the professional fees stated by its members, rather than actual prices charged by them, let alone the actual operating costs of medical practitioners. Second, there was no objective and transparent methodology employed by the GOF Committee to derive the first draft of recommended fees from the survey responses. 69. Third and most importantly, various submissions from SMA clearly indicate that the purpose of the GOF was to recommend what prices should be, rather than to reflect what prices were. CCS also notes that the GOF did not take into account objective measures such as the actual operating costs of the practitioners in its recommendations. SMA explained that the GOF was meant to increase the transparency of, and educate the public about, costs. According to SMA, failure to include recommended minimum prices may ―communicate erroneously to the public that some services do not carry a cost, which is hardly the case,‖ although doctors may still waive their charges69. CCS does not agree with this argument as CCS finds it hard to believe that the public would expect that the services rendered do not carry a cost and were provided for free by the private medical practitioners.

66 SMA‘s letter to CCS dated 28 May 2009 at ¶32.1 and¶ 32.2. 67 Form 1 filed by SMA on 5 February 2009, at ¶5.1.27. 68 SMA‘s letter to CCS dated 28 May 2009, at ¶32.2. 69 SMA‘s letter to CCS dated 5 June 2009, at ¶4.1.

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It can also be seen from the following statement in SMA‘s submission70 that the GOF consisted of fees that may have been fashioned with a degree of self- interest: The GOF sets out a schedule of recommended fees for medical practitioners in private practice in Singapore, based on a survey of current rates charged by medical practitioners in the market to identify reasonable price ranges to protect the interests of patients while ensuring that doctors are reasonably remunerated for their skill sets, competence, experience, specialties and quality of services. The GOF was intended to provide greater transparency to patients and enable them to make an informed choice. [Emphasis added]

CCS is also of the view that as SMA is made up of doctors, there is an inherent conflict of interest for them to set prices71. In addition, CCS also notes that this view was also supported in a study cited in the US Federal Trade Commission‘s advisory opinion in American Society of Internal Medicine72. In the study, it was indicated that doctors, if forming part of the polled group to determine a relative value scale (―RVS‖)73, ―would have a financial stake in the outcome of the RVS determinations and thereby have a substantial conflict of interest if empanelled to determine an RVS‖74. GOF did not necessarily promote better service quality

CCS notes that medical practitioners may argue that setting a minimum price helps to ensure that quality will not be compromised. Indeed, arguments about how minimum prices serve to protect customers, through the maintenance of standards and prevention of substandard service, have often been raised in the history of competition law. Nevertheless, the jurisprudence is replete with judicial pronouncements rejecting such arguments, as there is no guarantee that, even with minimum prices, quality level of services will necessarily be maintained.

For example, in AROW/BNIC75, the EC considered an industry agreement on the minimum distribution price of mature brandy, which purported to maintain the traditional quality of cognac, and to assure the consumer that there would be no artificial reduction in prices to the detriment of the characteristics of the product. The EC noted that despite the stated objective of the agreement, the decision to fix minimum prices was in reality taken on the ground of the sales policy of the various parties represented by BNIC76, and had as their object and effect the prevention of free individual price formation by cognac producers77. As to the claimed benefits of the minimum pricing agreement, the EC noted78: 70 Form 1 filed by SMA on 5 February 2009, at ¶3.3.1. 71 This possibility was also noted by CASE. See NOI with CASE (dated 24 April 2009), at ¶16. 72 The advisory issued by the US FTC was dated 19 April 1985. 73 A relative value scale (―RVS‖) expresses the value of one professional service to another, and can be converted into a fee schedule by the application of a common conversion factor to all the values within the scale. 74 Berenson, Group Decision-Making Methods, cited in American Society of Internal Medicine, at page 18. 75 Case 82/896/EC, OJ L 379, 31/12/1982. 76 AROW/BNIC, at ¶52. 77 AROW/BNIC, at ¶60. 78 AROW/BNIC, from ¶69 to ¶71.

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The imposition of minimum prices can in no way be justified by reference to an alleged object of guaranteeing quality. Such a measure is both pointless and ineffective for that purpose. It is pointless because the legal requirements for the production, stocking, ageing and distributions of cognac allow sufficient policing of fraud. It is ineffective because it introduces no extra check on products sold at prices above the minimum imposed; if it were accepted that the legal requirements protecting the use of the registered designation of origin "cognac" were ineffective, the imposition of a minimum price would not prevent products which failed to meet the quality criteria laid down by those legal requirements from being sold with impunity at prices above the minimum imposed.

Furthermore, the measures at issue are in any event out of proportion to the object referred to, as they completely prevent the sale of spirits qualifying for the registered designation of origin "cognac" at prices below the minimum set by the industry agreement. There is no provision for proving that a product sold at a price below the minimum imposed nevertheless meets the quality criteria laid down by the legal requirements (1).

The consumer does not receive the benefit of an improvement in quality, as has been shown above. Neither does he benefit from the other hypothetical advantages alleged by the BNIC (see above, point 67), as the measures at issue have the consequence that prices are at a higher level than that which would result from the free interplay of supply and demand.

With respect to recommending maximum prices, SMA submitted that without the GOF, the problem of assessing quality would be exacerbated. SMA argued that due to the presence of information asymmetry, a patient often judges the quality of medical services (especially highly specialised services with few providers available) by price, i.e., the higher the price, the higher the perceived quality of services. Accordingly, without a recommended guideline on pricing through the GOF, medical practitioners may be motivated to charge increasingly higher prices to signal to the patient the quality of services that the medical practitioner is providing, without a corresponding increase in the actual quality of services provided79. SMA also stressed that while the GOF would not be able to eliminate all the contributory factors to the information asymmetry problem, the absence of the GOF would however exacerbate the issue of assessing quality.

CCS acknowledges that the signaling problem may be present amongst medical practitioners in the private sector, but is not convinced that the GOF can deter such practices, as medical practitioners can still use high prices as a signaling tool in the presence of the GOF. In fact, the GOF might even facilitate signaling, as deliberately charging above the GOF recommended prices could create an even more credible impression of better quality healthcare services than in the absence of the GOF. In particular, CCS notes that, according to SMA‘s definition80, a doctor is not over-charging so long as the patient is informed of the charges. Ironically, signaling inevitably involves informing the patient of the charges beforehand. 79 SMA‘s letter to CCS dated 28 May 2009, at ¶23.1. 80 SMA‘s letter to CCS dated 28 May 2009, at ¶28.1.

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Considering the above, it cannot be objectively construed that either the minimum or maximum recommended prices in the GOF promoted better quality of medical services. GOF can restrict competition even if it comprised recommended maximum fees

Even if the GOF comprised only recommended maximum fees (i.e. without recommended minimum fees), it would still be deemed to be anticompetitive in its nature.‖ In Maine Medical Association 81, the US Federal Trade Commission advised that a proposal for doctors to either freeze their fees or lower them by a particular percentage raised competition concerns, as the recommendation might serve as part of, or evolve into an agreement amongst member doctors to comply with the recommendation. The recommendation could also become coercive if the member doctors did not view it as purely advisory and voluntary.

That this is a real prospect in the present case can be inferred from SMA‘s submissions82: The SMA further submits that it is possible that the public will base its perception on the level of over-charging (or excessive pricing) by doctors on the GOF. Accordingly, the SMA is of the view that there may be medical practitioners who would adhere to the upper limit of the GOF as a price ceiling so as to avoid accusations of over-charging by the public. [Emphasis added]

The feedback received by CCS also indicated that the GOF was often used by doctors to justify their fees when queried by patients83. Conclusion

Based on the totality of factors considered above, CCS concludes that the GOF had the object of restricting competition. (g) “Effect” of Restricting Competition

Given CCS‘ conclusion that the GOF had the object of restricting competition, it is not necessary to consider if the GOF also had the effect of doing so84. Nonetheless, it appears from the facts of this case that the GOF had been effective in influencing prices.

CCS first notes SMA‘s submission that85: 81 Advisory Opinion to Maine Medical Association, 14 May 1984. 82 Form 1 filed by SMA on 5 February 2009, at ¶3.3.3. 83 See NOI with Private Hospital II (dated 17 June 2009), at ¶14; NOI with Private Hospital I (dated 16 June 2009), at ¶10; NOI with Private Hospital IV (dated 18 June 2009), at ¶11; NOI with Private Specialist Clinic (Obstetrics and Gynecology) (dated 30 June 2009), at ¶15; NOI with Private Specialist Clinic (Cardiology) (dated 17 June 2009), at ¶10. 84 Verband der Sachversicherer e.V. v. Commission, Case 45.85 [1987] ECR 405, at ¶39; Belgium Architects’ Association, Case Comp/38.549 (24 June 2004), at ¶94. 85 SMA‘s letter to CCS dated 28 May 2009, at ¶16.1.

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a best guess estimate is that at least 75 per cent of private medical practitioners charge within the GOF guidelines prior to its withdrawal [Emphasis added]. 83. In addition, CCS notes that the GOF was made available to non-members, at a price of $20 per copy (as opposed to $15 for members). SMA, by its own admission, also used the GOF to ‗counsel‘ errant doctors (including SMA members and non-SMA members) and adopted the same yardstick and criteria when processing over-charging complaints against them86. 84. Anecdotal evidence from interviews conducted by the Consultant also point to the GOF‘s widespread effect on medical prices, as doctors (including those who are non-SMA members) stated that they had used the GOF in the past to justify their prices and to address queries from patients on their charges. Other interviewees took the position that the GOF was especially useful to doctors that were new to private practice and who lacked knowledge of the prices charged by other private doctors87. This echoes SMA‘s argument in paragraph 61 that the GOF helped young medical professionals entering the private sector on how to charge. Results from the Market Study 85. In the Market Study, the Consultant opined that the GOF might be used as a mechanism for doctors to justify their prices to patients. The interviews suggested that consumers generally did not try to dispute prices when they had been informed that the prices were within the recommended range in the GOF. From the interviews conducted, the Consultant also highlighted that the doctors interviewed felt that medical practitioners commonly referred to the GOF as a benchmark for the fees they thought would be appropriate or reasonable in setting fees for their own private practice. 86. In order to quantify whether the GOF had the effect of restricting competition, a thorough analysis would have entailed how medical fees responded to the introduction of various versions of the GOF. However, fee information stretching back more than 20 years ago when the GOF was first introduced is not readily available. 87. Instead, the Consultant conducted a quantitative analysis88 on professional fees between July 2006 to June 2009 (the ―Period‖) to examine how medical fees had changed during the Period and assess if the changes could be attributed to the removal of the GOF in April 2007.

86 SMA‘s letter to CCS dated 24 July 2009, at ¶9.2. 87 See NOI with Private Specialist Clinic (Orthopaedics) (dated 24 June 2009), at ¶5; NOI with Private Specialist Clinic (Anaesthesia) (dated 30 June 2009) , at¶7; NOI with Private Specialist Clinic (Obstetrics and Gynecology) (dated 30 June 2009) , at ¶8; NOI with Private Specialist Clinic (ENT) (dated 13 July 2009), at ¶7; Phone interview with Private GP Clinic (Independent, 1 doctor) (dated 17 July 2009), at ¶15; 88 The analysis is based on data provided to CCS by two insurance companies from 1 July 2006 to 30 June 2009. The Consultant then selected 31 surgical procedures (with 10 observations or more) of which the procedure names could be matched with those in the GOF. Fees corresponding to subsidised services of the restructured hospitals were also excluded, since they fall outside the Relevant Markets.

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In terms of the effect of the GOF on price level, the data showed that professional fees charged by doctors in the the private sector (―private fees‖) had been increasing throughout the Period, both before and after the removal of the GOF89. However, after adjusting for CPI-Health90 which is a proxy for healthcare inflation91, the removal of the GOF did not contribute to the increase in private fees during the Period92.

In terms of the effect of the GOF on price uniformity, the Consultant found that the standard deviation of fees increased by 23.74% throughout the Period, suggesting that the GOF had led to price convergence when it was in force. (h) Appreciability

The CCS Guidelines on the Section 34 Prohibition also state: 2.18 An agreement will fall within the scope of the section 34 prohibition if it has as its object or effect the appreciable prevention, restriction or distortion of competition. [Emphasis added] Appreciability will depend largely on the influence which the parties to the agreement, or the members of the association whose decision is in issue, have on the market.93 This influence may be reflected by the market shares of the parties or members concerned94.This section sets out the reasons why CCS considers the influence of the GOF in the Relevant Markets to be appreciable.

According to SMA95, there are 3,032 registered medical practitioners in private practice, of which 2,132 are SMA members. Doctors interviewed in the Market Study96 suggested that price ranges in the GOF were usually taken into consideration in setting prices. In addition, SMA also indicated that the SMA Ethics and Complaints Committee processed complaints based on similar yardsticks for members and non-members97. Up until the withdrawal of the GOF in 2007, it had had no actual experience of a medical practitioner not following 89 The cumulative increase in professional fees charged by doctors in the private sector was 16.9% (¶425 of the Market Study). 90 Consumer Price Index–Health (―CPI-Health‖) covers the prices of medical treatment (which includes hospitalisation fees, medical consultations and specialist charges), dental treatment, proprietary medicines & supplies and medical health insurance. As such, professional fees are just one component of the CPI-Health. 91 The cumulative increase in CPI-Health during the Period was 13.1% (¶426 of the Market Study). 92 According to the Consultant‘s multivariate regression model, every 1% increase in CPI-Health corresponds to a 1.25% increase in private professional fees, while the removal of the GOF corresponds to a 2.6% decrease in fees, after controlling for other factors such as operation procedure and hospital type (¶453 and ¶454 of the Market Study). 93 See Fenex, supra, at ¶67-¶69. 94 See CCS Guidelines on the Section 34 Prohibition, at ¶2.19. 95 SMA‘s letter to CCS dated 28 May 2009, at ¶1.1. 96 See NOI with Private Specialist Clinic (ENT) (dated 13 July 2009), at ¶7. See NOI with Private Specialist Clinic (Orthopaedics) (dated 24 June 2009) at ¶5. See NOI with Private Specialist Clinic (Neurology) (dated 6 July 2009) at ¶14. See Phone Interview with Private GP Clinic (Independent, >1 doctor) (dated 12 August 2009) at ¶15. 97 SMA‘s letter to CCS dated 7 July 2009, at ¶9.2.

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the recommendations of SMA for a refund 98. Furthermore, as mentioned in paragraph 61, the GOF was also used to educate young doctors how to charge. These factors imply that the influence of GOF on professional fees spanned from SMA members to non-members and from actual to potential competitors. 92. Further, according to SMA‘s submission, at least 75% of the private medical practitioners charged within the range of the GOF99. 93. Given the totality of considerations above, CCS concludes that the influence of the GOF in the Relevant Markets was appreciable. (i) Conclusion on the section 34 prohibition 94. For the above reasons, CCS is of the view that the GOF infringed the section 34 prohibition, unless it can be shown that the GOF was either excluded or exempted under the Act. V. THE NET ECONOMIC BENEFIT EXCLUSION 95. SMA submitted that the GOF fell within the NEB exclusion in the Act100. The NEB exclusion is encapsulated in paragraph 9 of the Third Schedule to the Act, which reads: 9 Agreements with net economic benefit The section 34 prohibition shall not apply to any agreement which contributes to — (a) improving production or distribution; or (b) promoting technical or economic progress, but which does not — (i) impose on the undertakings concerned restrictions which are not indispensable to the attainment of those objectives; or (ii) afford the undertakings concerned the possibility of eliminating competition in respect of a substantial part of the goods or services in question. 96. The burden of proof in establishing the NEB exclusion lies on the party who claims it (i.e., SMA in this case)101. CCS is of the view that SMA has failed to establish that this exclusion applies to the GOF. (a) & (b): Improving Production or Distribution / Promoting Technical or Economic Progress SMA’s submissions 97. SMA submitted that the inherent characteristics of the healthcare market

98 SMA‘s letter to CCS dated 28 May 2009, at ¶32.2. 99 Ibid at ¶82. 100 Form 1 filed by SMA on 5 February 2009, at ¶2.5.2 and ¶5.1.4. 101 Unilever Bestfoods (Ireland) Ltd v Commission, Case C-552/03P, at ¶102; VBVB v Commission [1984] ECR 19 at ¶52.

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render it susceptible to market failure, such that free market principles applicable to other industries may not be applicable to medical services 102. Specifically, SMA explained that there is a high degree of information asymmetry between medical practitioners (i.e., the medical practitioner will have considerably more information than the patient as regards to the medical practitioner‘s efficiency and quality of care, as well as his business costs103) and patients, which affords the former the ability to overcharge the latter. Patients are unable to compare healthcare costs in order to make informed choices on pricing and quality of medical practitioners prior to consultation104. 98. As medical costs escalate, patients may choose to consume less (or even not to consume) medical services, resulting in consumption falling below socially and economically optimal levels105. The ill-effects that would follow include the occurrence of acute disease outbreaks and greater absenteeism from work and school106. Lack of treatment or immunization for diseases or illnesses would affect not only the health of the patient in question, but also that of others, through increased incidence of infections spreading. SMA submitted that these factors will ultimately lead to a fall in overall productivity of the economy107. 99. SMA also pointed out that over-charging will have an adverse impact on Singapore‘s medical tourism efforts, as higher costs would deter foreigners from seeking medical treatment in Singapore 108 . SMA also alluded to how the information asymmetry problem may be particularly acute for foreign patients, whom SMA argued would not have the time to shop around or to search for information to make an informed choice109.

  1. In light of the above, SMA claimed that ―a calibrated degree of

intervention‖ in the healthcare market is necessary to prevent uninhibited profiteering and the escalation of medical fees110. SMA submitted that the GOF helped to achieve this goal and protect patients‘ interests, by increasing the transparency of healthcare costs, diminishing the information asymmetry between patients and medical practitioners, allowing patients to make an informed choice of medical practitioner111, so that over-charging can be identified112 and curbed in the private sector113.

  1. SMA also highlighted that information searches on medical services are

102 Form 1 filed by SMA on 5 February 2009, at ¶5.1.3. 103 Form 1 filed by SMA on 5 February 2009, at ¶5.1.6. 104 Form 1 filed by SMA on 5 February 2009, at ¶5.1.9. 105 Form 1 filed by SMA on 5 February 2009, at ¶5.1.18-¶5.1.20. 106 SMA‘s letter to CCS dated 28 May 2009, at ¶25.1. 107 Form 1 filed by SMA on 5 February 2009, at ¶5.1.24. 108 Form 1 filed by SMA on 5 February 2009, at ¶5.1.25; SMA‘s letter to CCS dated 28 May 2009, at ¶40.3- ¶40.4. 109 Ibid 110 Form 1 filed by SMA on 5 February 2009, at ¶5.1.4. 111 Form 1 filed by SMA on 5 February 2009, at ¶3.1.2 and ¶3.3.1. 112 Form 1 filed by SMA on 5 February 2009, at ¶5.1.31. 113 Form 1 filed by SMA on 5 February 2009, at ¶5.1.15 to ¶5.1.17.

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difficult to perform as pricing information is not centrally published and in most instances, medical practitioners would either be unable or unwilling to provide a quote on the medical fees in advance of a consultation or diagnosis. In this regard, consultation fees may form a large part of the overall costs. Accordingly, it would not be economically realistic for patients to perform such information searches114. In particular, SMA referred to emergency-type cases, or one-off rather than recurring medical treatment, where the ability of patients to exercise choice is curtailed.

  1. SMA reasoned that by preventing over-charging, the GOF promoted the

consumption of medical services at socially and economically optimal levels. This in turn translated into increased investment in health capital and a boost in productivity115. SMA explained that as productivity is a component of economic growth116, the GOF would help to promote economic progress117.

  1. SMA‘s definition of ―over-charging‖ is one where the medical practitioner

had charged the patient above the GOF without informing the patient beforehand, and without extenuating circumstances (e.g., complications developed during an operation which necessitated further treatment)118.

  1. To this end, the GOF was used by SMA‘s Complaints Committee as a

primary reference for reviewing the public‘s complaints about over-charging by medical practitioners119. SMA submitted that with the removal of the GOF, the medical profession would not be able to identify when a medical practitioner is over-charging, even in the most extreme examples120. CCS’ assessment on information asymmetry and over-charging

  1. CCS is of the view that the extent or magnitude of the information

asymmetry and over-charging problems highlighted above by SMA differ from one relevant market to another. Therefore, the usefulness of the GOF has to be considered separately.

The Primary Care Market

  1. CCS notes that Primary Care services are generally homogeneous and less

complex in nature, given that patients frequently visit GP clinics for the common and recurring (but usually less serious) ailments such as diarrhea, common cough and influenza. As a result, prices in this segment are generally competitive.

114 Form 1 filed by SMA on 5 February 2009, at ¶5.1.14. 115 Form 1 filed by SMA on 5 February 2009, at ¶5.1.30. 116 Form 1 filed by SMA on 5 February 2009, at ¶5.1.22. 117 Form 1 filed by SMA on 5 February 2009, at ¶5.1.29-¶5.1.30. 118 SMA‘s letter to CCS dated 28 May 2009, at ¶28.1. 119 Form 1 filed by SMA on 5 February 2009, at ¶3.3.2. 120 Ibid at footnote 118

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Given the recurring nature of consumption of Primary Care, patients gain experience and basic knowledge of what kinds of treatment they need, and what constitutes a ―reasonable‖ price. Further, the easily accessible pricing information for Primary Care (as compared to Hospital Care) enables patients to compare prices and exercise choices (i.e. ability to switch if over-charged by a particular GP). Therefore, over-charging in the Primary Care Market is not a major concern. It follows that the need (and relevance) of the GOF is not established. The Primary Care Market is functioning well. There are no strong reasons to have a GOF in this market.

  1. Even SMA recognised in its submission that in cases of recurring

consumption of medical services, patients would be able to121 [C]onduct information searches on medical practitioners and source out better rates or higher quality of service, as they are able to anticipate with a degree of certainty the kind of medical services required.

  1. CCS also notes that SMA agreed that over-charging is not a major concern

in the Primary Care Market122 even following the withdrawal of the GOF. The SMA submits that price competition may be particularly important in the area of general practice. Many general practitioners (―GPs‖) compete mainly on price which has resulted in the low GP prices in Singapore. … Accordingly, GPs are not able to command a premium for such services. Hospital Care

  1. One may argue that information asymmetry is more severe in the Hospital

Care Market than in the Primary Care Market, given the complexity of the medical conditions. In addition, the monetary consideration for complicated treatment is much more substantial than Primary Care. Furthermore, some patients with serious illnesses may not be in the frame of mind to consider the financial issues when making choices. These may potentially lead to more over-charging incidents by private practitioners.

  1. To this end, CCS notes that the public sector is the major supplier of

Hospital Care in Singapore. For the mass population who may be concerned with over-charging by private practitioners, CCS is of the view that the restructured hospitals are either their first choices or credible alternatives to private hospitals123. Hospital in-patient and specialist outpatient services provided by the public sector did not refer to the GOF in setting prices. The GOF is irrelevant insofar as patients who choose the public sector for Hospital Care are concerned. The mission of the public sector is to provide good quality and affordable

121 Form 1 filed by SMA on 5 February 2009, at ¶5.1.13. 122 SMA‘s letter to CCS dated 28 May 2009, at ¶3.1. 123 Based on CCS‘ market definition, the mass population who choose subsidised public-sector Hospital Care services with or without the GOF falls outside the relevant market. These patients may regard subsidised public- sector services as good substitutes to private-sector services, but this is irrelevant to the question whether the GOF had the ability to appreciably restrict competition in the Hospital Care Market defined.

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healthcare services to the mass public. Therefore, over-charging should not be a concern for those patients who choose the public sector for Hospital Care. In addition, there is more price transparency through measures such as those as highlighted in paragraph 28. Patients who face financial difficulties can also apply for financial assistance under various schemes offered by the government.

  1. As for the usefulness of the GOF to patients who choose the private sector

for Hospital Care, SMA believed that the GOF was useful to patients as it provided them with greater transparency on private healthcare costs. A closer examination of the GOF, however, suggests that the GOF did not serve this purpose. Unlike the price information provided under the publication of hospital bill sizes on MOH‘s website, the GOF used highly technical medical terminologies which only doctors would be expected to understand. Hence, patients would not be able to identify or match the medical procedures by themselves, let alone estimate the likely size of the overall bill, based on the information provided in the GOF without any doctor‘s assistance.

  1. CCS therefore considers the GOF to be of limited use as patients are likely

to depend on referrals (either by their family doctor or through word-of-mouth). Others simply go to the restructured hospitals at the very first instance. They may also seek a second opinion before making a decision. If they seek a second opinion from the restructured hospitals, they would be able to estimate the level of premium that they can possibly bear if they switch to private medical practitioners. Even for those patients who are unable to source good pricing information from the above channels, the GOF would also offer little help due to its technical terminologies.

  1. Besides, for the GOF to be useful in preventing over-charging, the fees in

the GOF had to be ―correct‖ to begin with. Feedback received from the Market Study on the reasonableness of the GOF fee range was mixed. Some doctors viewed the fee ranges in the GOF as being fair 124 , some viewed them as generous125, while others viewed them as being too low126. Insurance companies appeared to take the view that the GOF‘s rates were reasonable, and could help to curb over-charging127.

  1. As noted in paragraphs 17-18, despite SMA‘s argument that various

safeguards were in place to ensure the reasonableness of the recommended fees in the GOF, there was no organisation or body specifically representing the interest of consumers or patients that contributed to formulation of the GOF. Besides,

124 See NOI with Private Hospital I (dated 16 June 2009), at ¶16; NOI with Private Specialist Clinic (ENT) (dated 13 July 2009), at ¶8-¶9; NOI with Private Specialist Clinic (Cardiology) (dated 17 June 2009), at ¶12. 125 See NOI with Private Specialist Clinic (Neurology) (dated 6 July 2009), at ¶15; NOI with Private Specialist Clinic (Opthalmology) (dated 11 June 2009), at ¶7. 126 See NOI with Private Hospital III (dated 22 June 2009), at ¶25; NOI with Private Specialist Clinic (Anaesthesia) (dated 30 June 2009), at ¶8; NOI with Private Specialist Clinic (Cardiology) (dated 17 June 2009), at ¶12; NOI with Private Specialist Clinic (Opthalmology) (dated 11 June 2009), at ¶7. 127 See NOI with Insurance Company II (dated 28 May 2009), at ¶8-¶10; NOI with Insurance Company IV (dated 28 May 2009), at ¶10-¶11 and Insurance Company III (Part 2) (dated 10 June 2009), at ¶6.

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neither MOH nor SMC were involved in the fee-setting discussions. Further, some of the national specialist societies claimed that they were not involved in the process, despite SMA‘s acknowledgment of their contributions to the GOF128.

  1. CCS also notes that the GOF, which primarily concerned prices, would not

alleviate the information asymmetry between doctors and patients with respect to the diagnosis of medical conditions and the likely consequences of different treatment options. Therefore, the GOF could not help a patient make an assessment of the appropriateness of the treatment he receives, which ultimately determines the medical costs that he has to incur.

  1. In response to SMA‘s argument that, without the GOF, doctors may be

motivated to charge increasingly higher prices to signal to the patient the quality of services that they are providing, without there being a corresponding increase in the actual quality of services provided129, as mentioned in paragraphs 72-76, CCS is of the view that the GOF is not useful in addressing this problem.

  1. As for SMA‘s claim that anecdotal evidence supported the phenomena of

price increases after the removal of the GOF, CCS notes that some respondents to the Market Study observed some increase in prices since the removal of the GOF130, but many of them were not able to confirm whether this was due to over- charging, or whether it was due to extraneous factors such as increases in costs or inflation131. SMA claimed that anecdotal evidence supported the phenomenon that doctors‘ fees are increasing after the removal of the GOF. CCS is of the view that this is consistent with healthcare inflation during the same period. CCS further notes that SMA‘s own position is that healthcare inflation has always been higher than general inflation132.

  1. Further, quantitative analysis from the Market Study also did not provide

support that the GOF was constraining doctors from overcharging 133 . More

128 CCS sought inputs from 4 specialist societies. Only the Obstetricians and Gynaecologists Society of Singapore had indicated that they were involved in the review of the GOF in 1996. The other 3 specialist societies who claimed that they were not involved in the setting of the GOF are Singapore Society for Hand Surgery, Singapore Society of Ophthalmology and Singapore Cardiac Society. See letter from Obstetricians and Gynaecologists Society of Singapore to CCS (dated 20 August 2009), letter from Singapore Society for Hand Surgery (dated 17 July 2009), letter from Singapore Society of Ophthalmology (dated 25 June 2009), and letter from Singapore Cardiac Society (dated 28 July 2009). 129 SMA‘s letter to CCS dated 28 May 2009, at ¶23.1. 130 See for example NOI with Private Hospital II (dated 17 June 2009), at ¶13; NOI with Private Hospital I (dated 16 June 2009), at ¶14; NOI with Insurance Company III (Part 2) (dated 10 June 2009), at ¶8; NOI with Private Specialist Clinic (Anesthesia) (dated 30 June 2009), at ¶9. 131 See NOI with Public Health Cluster I (dated 2 July 2009), at ¶19; NOI with Public Health Cluster II (dated 11 June 2009), at ¶10; NOI with Private Hospital III (dated 22 June 2009), at ¶26; NOI with Insurance Company III (dated 27 May 2009), at ¶13. 132 SMA‘s letter to CCS dated 24 July 2009, at ¶ 3.2. 133 According to the theory of harm proposed in the Market Study, if the GOF was effective in sanctioning high fees and preventing over-charging (defined as SMA as a case where doctors charge above the GOF range without informing patients before hand) one should expect to see a greater fraction of fees just below the maximum of the GOF range than just above the maximum of the GOF range when the GOF was in force, and that this difference in proportions would diminish when the GOF was removed. Instead, the quantitative analysis showed the opposite: there was a greater fraction of fees just below the maximum of the GOF range than just

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importantly, as shown from the regression results from paragraph 87, there is no evidence to suggest any systematic increase in the professional fees for the private sector because of the removal of the GOF, CCS considers that the evidence pertaining to more over-charging after the removal of the GOF to be weak.

  1. Furthermore, over-charging practices in the medical sector in Singapore

did not seem to be widespread. In its responses to CCS, SMA disclosed that it had only handled a total of 24 over-charging cases from 2007 to 2009. CASE, which also deals with complaints on over-charging by medical practitioners, gave inputs that complaints about over-charging by doctors had not increased significantly since the removal of the GOF and that the theoretical consumer protection benefits of the GOF were not borne out by the number of complaints134 it had received. MOH135 also indicated that if there is gross over-charging that amounts to unethical and unprofessional practice, the doctor concerned will be referred to SMC instead. Table 1: Information in relation to complaints received by SMA136 Period Number of Complaints 2006-2007 26 2007-2008 10 2008-2009 14

  1. CCS also finds SMA‘s definition of over-charging (see paragraph 103) to

be unhelpful. According to SMA‘s definition, so long as the doctor informed the patient of the fees beforehand, there would be no over-charging, regardless of the actual level of fees charged. As mentioned in paragraph 28, MOH requires private medical clinics to display their common charges. Since SMA‘s definition was adopted by its Ethics and Complaint Committee in handling over-charging complaints, the GOF was not useful in curbing over-charging. In particular, those doctors who used high prices as a signaling tool would likely have informed patients of their prices in advance.

  1. In any case, CCS is not convinced that the SMA method of deriving the

recommended fees in the GOF is the most objective method. The methodology explained by SMA shows that the process mainly involved doctors who were suppliers themselves and whose income depended directly on the fees charged. The fees listed in the GOF did not reflect the ―current‖ rates or actual prices.

above the maximum of the GOF range after the GOF was removed, but prior to its removal there was no significant difference in the proportion. See section 4.8 of the Market Study. 134 See NOI with CASE (dated 24 April 2009), at ¶2 and¶ 3. 135Source : http://www.pqms.moh.gov.sg/apps/fcd_faqmain.aspx?qst=2fN7e274RAp%2bbUzLdEL%2fmJu3ZDKARR3p5 Nl92FNtJiccWnX9%2bksdbTzPyVUGb13KTKxpM6TLUdyU%2f%2frHEDywnQRM7QvKtUZYhcfWKytiez uM7HH%2byfBWA29KOIcFIonQwtSKtqfdf7D1LjYSrXkoPDb7qh3jnvrDvRrKLk0%2bOuEATLMJ1MPs%2 fTbX9BsumQg%2b3hF0SbQt9Os%3d [Accessed on 30 April 2010] 136 SMA‘s letter to CCS dated 28th May 2009 at, ¶34.1.

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Instead, it laid out a set of fees which the GOF Committee deemed as what should be charged. The conflict of interest inherent in this process should not be dismissed.

  1. At the very least, the GOF fee ranges were no more credible and/or useful

than public-sector prices as a benchmark against over-charging. The specialist outpatient clinics in restructured hospitals are already publishing their consultation charges on their websites for ease of comparison. The charges include consultations for subsidised and unsubsidised patients as well as the charges incurred for the different consultants such as Senior Consultant, Consultant or Associate. In terms of Hospital Care, MOH also publishes on its website actual historical bill sizes of restructured hospitals for 70 common medical conditions and private hospital bills for 10 conditions. In paragraph 135, CCS further notes MOH‘s continuing efforts to enhance price transparency by compiling billing statistics from the private hospitals for publication in the future.

  1. One may argue that the prices in the public sector may not be apple-to-

apple comparisons to prices in the private sector due to actual or perceived differences137. CCS nonetheless considers that, even if patients find private and public services to be different, they can still make good use of the available pricing information to arrive at a more informed decision on the level of price premium they are willing to pay for private–sector services, if any 138. Such comparison provides a much more transparent, credible and unbiased benchmark for patients than the GOF did.

  1. Finally, CCS also notes that foreign patients who are able to plan for a trip

to Singapore for medical treatment would in most instances have the time and resources to compare prices in order to make an informed decision before they make the trip. As the nature of such medical services is usually one-off and involves specialised care, the foreign patients are likely to do some checks and comparison before making the trip. Furthermore, as noted above, foreign patients can also complain to SMC if they believe that there is gross-over-charging.

  1. In the case of medical emergencies, CCS recognises that it is almost

impossible for patients to shop around, since the conditions are life-threatening if treatment is not rendered immediately. In this regard, CCS notes that there are two types of ambulance services in Singapore, namely the ‗995‘ and ‗1777‘ services. The ‗995‘ service is operated by Singapore Civil Defence Force (―SCDF‖). When the ‗995‘ hotline is called, the SCDF ambulance will send the patient to the nearest restructured hospital, and will not entertain any request to be sent to private hospitals, in which case the GOF is irrelevant, since restructured hospitals have their own pricing and do not refer to the GOF. According to the SCDF,

137 In particular, CCS‘ market definition shows that subsidised Hospital Care services provided by the public sector are not good substitutes to private-sector Hospital Care services. 138 If patients are willing to pay substantial premium for private-sector services, the private and public sectors may constitute different markets in the antitrust context, but this does not affect the usefulness of public-sector prices as a benchmark upon which the premium is to be applied.

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there is no charge for any emergency case139 it conveys to hospitals.

  1. In contrast, the ‗1777‘ ambulance services operated by private providers

will send patients to their hospitals of choice, be it private or restructured. This service costs $60-$100140 for a one-way trip. These patients (or the caregiver) who wish to be treated at a private hospital would have consciously made such a decision independently of the GOF. Even in the private hospitals, financial counseling is provided to patients admitted as emergencies and depending on the patient‘s condition, the patient can be transferred to the restructured hospitals if the charges are of concern141.

  1. Besides emergencies which require immediate medical attention, there may

also be cases where patients have limited time to decide on an urgent treatment of a critical illness. However, with or without the GOF, CCS notes that public–sector Hospital Care would be a credible alternative for those patients who are nonetheless concerned with over-charging despite their urgent requirements142, as restructured hospitals and specialty centres do prioritise patients according to their medical conditions143. For those patients who opt for the private sector, CCS considers their decisions to be no less conscious than similar decisions made by most other patients.

  1. As such, CCS concludes that the scope of emergency cases where the

patient is genuinely exposed to the risk of over-charging, if any, is narrow, and would not justify the publication of recommended fees for an entire gamut of medical procedures and operations, pertaining to both emergency and non- emergency cases, for the stated purpose of curbing over-charging. CCS’ assessment on optimal consumption of medical services

  1. CCS notes that SMA has not furnished any evidence to establish that

medical services in Singapore will fall or has fallen below socially and economically optimal levels. Indeed, SMA submitted that any attempt to tell whether the consumption of medical services is below socially and economically optimal levels would necessarily be a ―complex endeavour‖144. Nevertheless, SMA referred to the government‘s decision to allow Medisave for outpatient treatment of chronic diseases and subsidised health screenings for the elderly, and identified this as a tacit recognition of the possibility of under-consumption of

139 However, with effect from 15 April 2005, the SCDF charges $165 for each non-emergency case that it ferries to hospital. It is for the receiving hospital to determine whether a patient qualifies as an emergency case. Source: http://www.scdf.gov.sg/general/information/emergency_ambulance_service.html#scdf_amb_charges [Accessed on 30 May 2010] 140 Source: http://www.scdf.gov.sg/general/information/1777_amb_charges.html [Accessed on 30 May 2010] 141 See NOI with Private Hospital III (dated 22 June 2009), at ¶20; NOI with Private Hospital I (dated 16 June 2009), at ¶7, ¶8 & ¶21. 142 Those patients who opt for subsidised Hospital Care services would fall outside the Relevant Markets defined by CCS. 143 Source: http://www.moh.gov.sg/mohcorp/pressreleases.aspx?id=964 [Accessed on 30 April 2010] 144 SMA‘s letter to CCS dated 28 May 2009, at ¶25.1.

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medical services.145

  1. First, CCS disagrees with SMA‘s argument that the level of consumption

of medical services is sub-optimal. As indicated in paragraphs 19-28, the government has put in place a healthcare system that is accessible and affordable to the public, with itself being a major supplier. Second, the government will intervene to prevent over-supply, moderate demand and create incentives to keep health care costs under control146, meaning that the government is as, if not more, concerned about over-consumption of medical services as under-consumption of medical services. Third, CCS is not satisfied that the GOF is the right tool to rectify any sub-optimal consumption of medical services as it may not be effective in addressing over-charging.

  1. CCS notes that the Consultant did not agree that a reduction in the

incidences of over-charging would lead to a significant impact on the average level of medical services utilization, since over-charging (as defined by SMA) only occurs after a patient has already received treatment. In addition, the Consultant also opined that, while patients may arguably reduce their willingness to seek medical treatments for fear of being overcharged, it could also be argued that patients generally seek medical help out of necessity and may in fact be more motivated to shop around to prevent themselves from being overcharged. Conclusion

  1. Considering the above, CCS is not of the view that the GOF has met the

requirements of either improving production or distribution, or promoting technical or economic progress, of medical services in Singapore to in order to qualify for an exclusion from the application of Section 34 of the Act. (i) Indispensability

  1. Given that the requisite conditions for the GOF to improve production or

distribution, or to promote technical or economic progress, are not satisfied, the question of the indispensability of the GOF does not arise. Notwithstanding this, CCS is not convinced by SMA‘s argument that the GOF is indispensable in achieving the objectives and economic benefits that SMA had claimed.

  1. On a broader level, it has to be recognised that the information asymmetry

issue is not unique to the medical services sector. It exists in many other markets. If the existence of information asymmetry could be used to justify an agreement between competitors on prices in the medical services sector, the same argument could be applied to a myriad of other relationships, including real estate agents and their clients, or between used car dealers and purchasers, to justify price agreements between competitors.

145 Ibid. 146 Ibid at ¶21.

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improve price transparency in the market, as such efforts would generally be pro- competitive. For instance, CCS agrees that the measures adopted by MOH, such as itemising medical bills and publishing condition specific hospital bill sizes, are useful in promoting price transparency and competition. CCS further notes MOH‘s continuing efforts to enhance price transparency by compiling billing statistics from the private hospitals for publication in the future. According to MOH, this will be done by amending the Medisave regulations to make it a requirement for Medisave accredited hospitals (including private hospitals) to submit their basic billing statistics when making Medisave claims for their patients. 147

SMA said:148 … the SMA is of the view that the reporting of historical information may not provide similar safeguards to the public interest against over-charging or low quality of medical services as recommendations on minimum and maximum prices. This is because historical information only represents pricing trends but provides no indication on whether the general pricing is reasonable. … [Emphasis added]

to be more reasonable than recommended prices. Price recommendation by an association of competitors is less effective in ensuring reasonable prices, yet more restrictive of competition, than publication of historical prices by individual medical practitioners or establishments.

alternative to the GOF would be for SMA to adopt a peer review mechanism (e.g., similar to the system used in the United States) to address the issue of over- charging by medical practitioners. In the United States, this mechanism has been expressly sanctioned by the US antitrust authorities, subject to certain safeguards, such as voluntary participation in the peer review program, the non-binding nature of the decisions of the peer review panel and confidentiality of the peer review process149. SMA submitted that while such a system is theoretically possible, it had concerns about the effort involved in organising such peer review committees to handle over-charging complaints (especially for highly specialised services with few doctors offering such services). SMA hence prefers the GOF as being a more expedient and objective way than peer review committees150 .

that amounts to unethical and unprofessional practice, the doctor concerned will 147 Source: http://www.channelnewsasia.com/stories/singaporelocalnews/view/1054075/1/.html [Accessed 03 May 2010] 148 SMA‘s letter to CCS dated 5 June 2009, at ¶3.2. 149 FTC advisory opinions in National Capital Society of Plastic and Reconstructive Surgeons, 23 April 1991, Tarrant County Medical Society 11 July 1984, American Podiatry Association, 18 August 1983. 150 SMA‘s reply to CCS dated 24 July 2009, at¶9.1. 151Ibid at ¶119.

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be referred to the SMC instead. CCS notes that SMC‘s disciplinary hearing is a mechanism of ex-post peer review152. CCS also notes that the recent changes made to the SMC‘s disciplinary processes 153 are aimed at improving SMC‘s ability to handle complaints of professional misconduct, which includes complaints of gross-overcharging, expeditiously and effectively.

  1. In general, the Consultant also did not consider that the GOF represented

the least restrictive way to achieve SMA‘s stated benefits. In particular, the Consultant considered that there are a number of other initiatives that might be undertaken by SMA, including maintaining a register of complaints relating to doctors who over-charged, educating consumers on what to look out for when searching for the appropriate medical practitioners and using historical price data. (ii) Elimination of competition in respect of a substantial part of the services in question

  1. Similar to the indispensability limb, the question of elimination of

competition in respect of a substantial part of the Relevant Markets does not arise, given that the GOF was not demonstrated to improve production or distribution, or to promote technical and economic progress, of medical services in Singapore.

  1. Nevertheless, as mentioned above, the GOF was meant to apply to

professional fees charged by medical practitioners in the private sector. As mentioned in paragraph 91, out of the 3,032 registered medical practitioners that are in private practice, 2,132 are SMA members. Further, SMA has indicated that the SMA Ethics and Complaints Committee had also processed complaints against non-SMA members and similar yardsticks were applied to them as for SMA members. Although SMA submits that it has no recourse in theory for non- compliance by the offending medical practitioner, until the withdrawal of the GOF in 2007, SMA had had no actual experience of a medical practitioner not following the recommendations of SMA for a refund.

  1. On SMA‘s argument that the GOF helped to educate young medical

practitioners entering the private sector on how to charge, as noted in paragraph 61, CCS finds this argument to be unconvincing. Any person venturing into the market is expected to do the necessary research before setting up his own

152 As an example of a peer-review process, when the Law Society of Singapore brings a case of overcharging against a lawyer, it needs to demonstrate that the lawyer had charged above what he or she was reasonably entitled to charge. On what is a reasonable charge, evidence may be led by an expert report prepared by another lawyer involved in the same area of practice who would opine what a reasonable charge would be in such a case , and whether the lawyer in question had overcharged the client in this instance. 153 The latest Amendment Bill to the Medical Registration Act included a review of SMC‘s disciplinary processes to strengthen and streamline these processes. The changes include increasing the number of people on the Complaints Committee, empowering SMC‘s Complaints Committee to appoint officers to carry out investigations, increasing the maximum penalty which can be imposed on the SMC on a medical practitioner for professional misconduct and having lawyers on the SMC‘s Disciplinary Tribunals to resolve questions of law which medical doctors may not have the expertise to address, hence hampering the disciplinary process. Source: www.moh.gov.sg/mohcorp/speeches.aspx?id=23652 and www.moh.gov.sg/mohcorp/speeches.aspx?id=23654 [Accessed on 30 April 2010]

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business, and be responsible for its own commercial decisions such as pricing. Allowing existing competitors to come together and educate new entrants on setting prices is apt to eliminate fresh competitive forces from being injected into the market.

  1. As such, given the extensive reach of the GOF and the mechanism used to

enforce it, CCS is of the view that competition will be eliminated in respect of a substantial part of the Relevant Markets. (d) Conclusion on the NEB exclusion

  1. In light of the above, CCS is satisfied that SMA has failed to establish that

the NEB exclusion applies. VI. THE STATEMENT OF DECISION

  1. CCS recognises that there are valid reasons why market forces alone may

not lead to efficient outcomes in the medical services sector. However, CCS‘ view is that the GOF did not contribute towards achieving better outcomes, and was instead anti-competitive. On the other hand, the restructured hospitals‘ direct involvement in Hospital Care and the government‘s efforts to improve pricing transparency are more effective, unrestrictive and unbiased ways to deal with the issues of information asymmetry, over-charging and optimal consumption of healthcare services. SMA can consider contributing to this by encouraging its members in the private sector to support greater transparency in healthcare charges by publishing their actual fees for their services, broken down or itemised in a meaningful way. It can also support SMC in the peer review disciplinary hearings.

  1. For the above reasons, CCS concludes in this Statement that the GOF

infringed the section 34 prohibition, and did not benefit from the NEB exclusion.

  1. In light of the fact that as of the April 2007, the GOF had already been

removed prior to any investigations initiated by CCS, there is no need for CCS to issue any direction under section 69 of the Act.

Teo Eng Cheong Chief Executive Competition Commission of Singapore

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ANNEX 2: OVERSEAS CASE STUDIES 1. The section provides a summary of medical fee recommendations/schedules considered by overseas competition authorities. It is important to note that value of any foreign competition case law depends very much on the overall facts and context of the case before CCS, as well as the extent to which the facts of these foreign cases are applicable to the local context. Overseas cases which are relevant to assessment of the GOF are stated directly in the main body of the Statement of Decision. 2. Based on a review of 9 overseas jurisdictions1 in the Market Study, guidelines on fees and recommended fee schedules of a prospective nature are generally considered to be anti-competitive regardless of whether compliance is mandatory or voluntary. 3. CCS notes that there are instances where competition authorities in other jurisdictions have permitted price schedules/recommendations on medical services. However, CCS notes that the facts of these cases may not be similar to the Application for Decision by the Singapore Medical Association. Some of these permitted price schedules/recommendations consist of (i) surveys on actual price information that are sufficiently historical and aggregated, (ii) price schedules that are deemed necessary for the provision of medical services under partnership/associate-ship/cooperative arrangements where there is a certain amount of risk sharing between medical practitioners and (iii) price schedules set by the government.

United Kingdom 4. British Medical Association (BMA) Guidelines – The UK CC found that, notwithstanding BMA‟s claim that the BMA Guidelines consisted of only recommended fees, 50% or more of the medical practitioners charged at or within 2 percent of the recommended fees. The UK CC concluded that the BMA Guidelines had prevented, restricted or distorted competition in the supply of private medical services. United States 5. The Statements of Antitrust Enforcement Policy in Health Care (Health Care Statements) issued jointly by the US Department of Justice (DOJ) and the Federal Trade Commission (FTC) set out the principles under which physician network ventures would be analysed by antitrust enforcement agencies: “In accord with general antitrust principles, physician network joint ventures will be analysed under the rule of reason and will not be viewed as per se illegal, if the physicians’ integrating through the network is likely to produce significant efficiencies that benefit consumers, and any price agreements (or other agreements that would otherwise be per se illegal) by network physicians are reasonably

1 The 9 selected jurisdictions are Australia, Finland, Germany, Hong Kong, Ireland, New Zealand, South Africa, United Kingdom and United States.

2

necessary to realise those efficiencies.2” 6. Five separate cases3 were deemed to be anticompetitive, mostly in the context of medical practitioners agreeing on prices for the purpose of negotiations with managed health care providers. In one case4, the Supreme Court clearly stated that it considered the fee arrangement to be per-se illegal. The others were likely to have been assessed and rejected under a rule of reason approach. However, in three instances, price schedules were allowed5.

Finland 7. Finnish Medical Association – the schedule of recommended maximum fees was prohibited as the Finnish Competition Authority‟s (FCA) studies showed that the use of the maximum fee schedule had led to uniform pricing where the recommended maximum prices were being used as minimum fees. The FCA further found that medical fees had increased rapidly in the 1980s which led the FCA to conclude that the fee recommendations had a harmful effect on price competition. Ireland 8. Irish Hospital Consultants Association (IHCA) – the IHCA has an agreement with the health insurers on a schedule of benefits to be paid out by health insurers to medical practitioners. This effectively sets the fees for the treatment of patients. The Irish Competition Authority (ICA) considered that the agreement has the object and/or effect to either directly or indirectly fix prices.

2 DOJ and FTC, Statements of Antitrust Enforcement Policy in Health Care, Statement 8, B.1. 3 The five cases are 1. US v Mountain Healthcare, P.A. Civil No. 1:02CV288-T, District Court of North Carolina, filed 13 December 2002

  1. Arizona v Maricopa County Medical Society, 457 U.S. 332 (1982)

FTC, Advisory Opinion to Maine Medical Association, 14 May 1984. 4. Minnesota Medical Association, 90 F.T.C. 337 (1977). 5. US vs Woman’s Hospital Foundation and Woman’s Physician Health Organisation, 15 U.S.C. §§ 1,2, filed April 23 1996. 4 Arizona v Maricopa County Medical Society, 457 U.S. 332 (1982). 5 The three cases are

  1. FTC, Advisory Opinion to Maryland Medical Associates (“MMEA”), P.A. May 15, 1987: Specifically,

the FTC believed that competition might be enhanced by offering a package of services to purchasers of eye care services that could not be offered by the medical practitioners individually. Further, FTC that the programme had only affected only a small percentage of medical practitioners‟ total patients and MMEA did not appear to have sufficient market power to affect the market price for eye services in the Baltimore area, nor did the restriction of output appear to be in danger.

  1. FTC, Advisory Opinion to South East Managed Care Organisation (“SEMCO”)/ Jackson Medical

Cooperative (“JMC”), July 5, 1994: FTC did not considered the proposed cooperation between SEMCO & JMC as anti-competitive as it appeared to involve substantial financial risk sharing between the participants and was within the 20% limit within the relevant market.

  1. US vs The American Society of Anesthesiologists (“ASA”), INC, No 75 Civ. 4640 (KYD), June 21, 1979:

The considerations taken by the District Court include that there is no monetary conversion factor to convert the Relative Value Guide (“RVG”) to a schedule of prices. The RVG was developed for use to negotiate for acceptable fees with third party carriers. There was substantial evidence that the inputs of ASA were frequently sought from the third party carriers before the derivation of the RVG.

3

New Zealand 9. Fee surveys by New Zealand Dental Association (NZDA) – fee surveys of its members were conducted by NZDA on an annual basis and the results were distributed to participating members only. The NZCC considered this practice could influence dentistry prices by providing a yardstick for dentists to set prices. While NZCC did not have specific evidence that dentists were utilizing the NZDA survey to set prices, it considered that several characteristics of the surveys would give rise to anticompetitive concerns. Amendments were subsequently made to the survey to address the NZCC‟s concerns, resulting in NZCC dropping the case.

  1. Dunedin City Primary Health Organisation – a group of GPs collectively put in

place a maximum fee for patients of 6 to 17 years old. NZCC found that 8 out of 31 practices had been charging at the maximum fee level while the rest were mostly charging less. Nevertheless, NZCC considered that the maximum fee policy had the potential to lead to higher prices than otherwise. NZCC therefore issued a warning to all the GPs advising them that they were likely to have engaged in price fixing if they attended the meeting to discuss the maximum fee policy.

  1. New Zealand Medical Association (NZMA) – NZMA has an agreement with the

Minister of Health to publish at six-monthly intervals, the range of usual total fees for paediatric consultations charged by medical practitioners in the region. NZCC considered that arrangement would not contravene the New Zealand Commerce Act as it was unlikely to have the purpose or effect of fixing, controlling or maintaining prices.

South Africa

  1. Benchmark tariffs for medical services – three separate associations were found

by the South African Competition Commission (SACC) to determine, recommend and publish benchmark tariffs for medical services on an annual basis. SACC found that the benchmark tariffs which were arrived at through collusion between members of the associations had the effect of fixing a selling price notwithstanding the fact that some medical practitioners might have priced slightly below or above the guidelines. SACC was also concerned that new entrants would be disincentivised to price below the guidelines. Ultimately, SACC was of the view that fee guidelines were not problematic per se if they were prepared by an independent person that was not a competitor and would not have a personal interest in the pricing of the market.

Australia

  1. The „List of Fees‟ of the Australian Medical Association (AMA) – The List of

Fees for more than 5000 medical procedures has been in place since 1973 in response to the recommendation of the Commonwealth Committee of Inquiry into Health Insurance. The List of Fees appears to have originated on direction of the Australian government for the purposes of calculating the Medical Benefits Schedule, a legislated requirement under the Australian Health Insurance Act 1973. The List of Fees is

4

updated annually by an independent consultant through an “indexing” of fees from the previous year, based on a number of cost and wage indices, without any involvement of medical practitioners. The ACCC has not made a formal decision on AMA‟s List of Fees.

  1. Canberra After Hours Locum Medical Services – involving a fee cap (or ceiling)

between the CALMS (a medical deputizing service owned and operated by a group of Canberra medical practitioners) and the Australian Capital Territories Health for the provision of after-hour medical services. The ACCC acknowledged that the arrangement was essentially a price fixing arrangement, but authorised the arrangement based on a number of mitigating factors.

  1. Royal Australian College of General Practitioners (RACGP) – Authorisation was

granted by ACCC to “GPs and other medical practitioners in general practice in associateships and partnerships, who operate as a team, where they share patient records, have common facilities, a common trading name and common policies and procedures”.6 Germany

  1. In Germany, there are two sets of medical fee schedules, namely the Catalogue

of Tariffs for Physicians (“GOÄ”) and Uniform Value Scale (“EBM”). The GOÄ is set by Germany‟s Ministry of Health and refers to the fees charged by medical practitioners to patients outside the Statutory Health Insurance („SHI‟) system, while the EBM is set collectively through negotiations between the medical practitioners and the insurance plans involved in providing SHI-related services. They are not subject to competition law scrutiny because they were put in place statutorily by the German government which deemed such fee control to be necessary for patient protection

6 See: ACCC Determination, Application for Revocation and Substitution of Determination A90795, 23 May 2007,

你的位置:首页 > 政务 > 政府信息公开 标 题:国务院反垄断反不正当竞争委员会关于行业协会的反垄断指南 索引号:11100000MB0143028R/2024-00001 主题分类:其他 文 号:双反委发〔2024〕2号 所属机构:反垄断执法一司 成文日期:2024年01月10日 发布日期:2024年01月12日 国务院反垄断反不正当竞争委员会 关于行业协会的反垄断指南 (2024年1月10日国务院反垄断反不正当竞争委员会印发)     第一条 目的和依据     为了预防和制止行业协会从事《中华人民共和国反垄断法》(以下简称《反垄断 法》)禁止的行为,发挥行业协会在促进行业规范健康持续发展、维护市场竞争秩 序等方面的积极作用,引导行业协会加强反垄断合规建设,根据《反垄断法》等法 律规定,制定本指南。     第二条 基本概念     本指南所称行业协会,是指由同行业经济组织和个人组成,行使行业服务和自律 管理职能的社会团体法人。     行业协会主要由具有竞争关系的经营者组成,也可能包括上下游经营者,或者具 有其他业务联系的经营者。     第三条 总体要求     行业协会应当加强行业自律,引导本行业的经营者依法竞争,合规经营,维护市 场竞争秩序。     行业协会不得违反《反垄断法》的规定,从事排除、限制竞争行为。     第四条 禁止组织从事垄断协议的一般规定     组织本行业的经营者从事垄断协议,是行业协会违反《反垄断法》的主要表现形 式。行业协会不得违反《反垄断法》第二十一条的规定,组织本行业的经营者从事 垄断协议行为。     前款所称从事,包括垄断协议的达成和实施。     第五条 垄断协议的形式     垄断协议是指排除、限制竞争的协议、决定或者其他协同行为。     协议、决定可以是书面、口头等形式。     其他协同行为是指经营者虽未明确订立协议或者决定,但实质上存在协调一致的 行为,有关经营者基于独立意思表示所作出的价格跟随等平行行为除外。     第六条 横向垄断协议     行业协会不得组织本行业具有竞争关系的经营者达成《反垄断法》第十七条禁止 的下列垄断协议:     (一)固定或者变更商品或者服务(以下统称商品)价格。行业协会不得以价格 自律、行业整顿、维护市场秩序等名义为本行业的经营者设定商品价格或者限制其 2026年06月11日 星期四 官方微信

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自主定价权,也不得组织本行业的经营者固定或者变更价格水平、价格变动幅度、 利润水平或者折扣、手续费等其他费用,约定采用据以计算价格的标准公式、算 法、平台规则等。     (二)限制商品的生产数量或者销售数量。行业协会不得对本行业的经营者作出 减产、停产、设定生产配额或者比例、限量供应、停止销售等关于商品生产数量或 者销售数量的决定,也不得组织本行业的经营者通过限制产量、固定产量、停止生 产等方式限制商品的生产数量,通过限制商品投放量等方式限制商品的销售数量 等。     (三)分割销售市场或者原材料采购市场。行业协会不得组织本行业的经营者划 分商品的销售地域、销售对象、市场份额、销售收入、销售利润或者销售商品的种 类、数量、时间,也不得组织本行业的经营者划分原材料的采购区域、供应商、种 类、数量、时间等。     (四)限制购买新技术、新设备或者限制开发新技术、新产品。行业协会不得组 织本行业的经营者限制购买、使用、租赁、投资、研发新技术、新工艺、新设备、 新产品,或者拒绝使用新技术、新工艺、新设备、新产品等。     (五)联合抵制交易。行业协会不得组织本行业的经营者联合拒绝向特定经营者 供应或者销售商品、联合拒绝采购或者销售特定经营者的商品,或者联合限定特定 经营者不得与其具有竞争关系的经营者进行交易等。     (六)国务院反垄断执法机构认定的其他垄断协议。     第七条 纵向垄断协议     行业协会不得组织本行业的经营者与交易相对人达成《反垄断法》第十八条禁止 的下列垄断协议:     (一)固定向第三人转售商品的价格。行业协会不得组织本行业的经营者固定向 第三人转售商品的价格水平、价格变动幅度、利润水平或者折扣、手续费等其他费 用。     (二)限定向第三人转售商品的最低价格。行业协会不得组织本行业的经营者限 定向第三人转售商品的最低价格,或者通过限定价格变动幅度、利润水平或者折 扣、手续费等其他费用限定向第三人转售商品的最低价格等。     (三)国务院反垄断执法机构认定的其他垄断协议。     对于前款第一项和第二项规定的协议,行业协会或者经营者能够证明协议不具有 排除、限制竞争效果的,不予禁止。     经营者能够证明其在相关市场的市场份额低于国务院反垄断执法机构规定的标 准,并符合国务院反垄断执法机构规定的其他条件的,不予禁止。     第八条 组织达成垄断协议的情形     行业协会不得通过下列行为组织本行业的经营者达成垄断协议:     (一)制定、发布含有排除、限制竞争内容的行业协会章程、规则、决定、通 知、意见、标准、自律公约等;     (二)通过会议、邮件、电话、函件、即时通讯工具等,召集、组织、推动经营 者以书面、口头等形式达成含有排除、限制竞争内容的协议、决议、纪要、备忘录 等;     (三)通过会议、邮件、电话、函件、即时通讯工具等,召集、组织、推动经营 者虽未订立协议或者决定,但达成排除、限制竞争的协调一致行为;     (四)其他组织经营者达成垄断协议的行为。     第九条 组织实施垄断协议的情形     行业协会不得通过下列行为组织本行业的经营者实施垄断协议:     (一)采取设置入会要求、没收保证金、设定违约金、限制会员权益、取消会员 资格、通报批评、联合抵制、暂停经营活动等惩戒措施,强迫经营者实施垄断协 议;     (二)采取将垄断协议实施情况与会员奖优评先挂钩等激励措施,引导经营者实 施垄断协议;     (三)行业协会自身或者通过第三方机构对经营者实施垄断协议情况进行监督监 测; 6/11/26, 10:05 AM 国务院反垄断反不正当竞争委员会关于行业协会的反垄断指南 https://www.samr.gov.cn/zw/zfxxgk/fdzdgknr/fldzfys/art/2024/art_3ce3a7fec76146cfb8a7927db10683b2.html 2/5

    (四)采取搭建平台、设立专班、建立协调机制等保障措施,为经营者实施垄断 协议提供便利性条件;     (五)其他组织经营者实施垄断协议的行为。     第十条 高风险行为     行业协会应当避免从事下列可能为本行业经营者达成、实施垄断协议提供便利性 条件的行为:     (一)推动本行业的经营者交换、讨论竞争性敏感信息或者通报竞争性敏感信 息;     (二)发布行业内指导价、基准价、参考价、推荐价、预测价等,或者制定供本 行业经营者参考的价格计算公式,引导本行业的经营者协调商品价格;     (三)发布不实或者夸大的成本趋势、供求状况等市场行情信息,引导本行业的 经营者协调商品价格。     前款所称竞争性敏感信息,是指商品的成本、价格、折扣、数量、质量、营业 额、利润或者利润率以及经营者的研发、投资、生产、营销计划、客户名单、未来 经营策略等与市场竞争密切相关的信息,但已公开披露或者可以通过公开渠道获取 的信息除外。     第十一条 垄断协议豁免     行业协会组织本行业的经营者达成的垄断协议,符合《反垄断法》第二十条规定 的情形和条件的,不予禁止。     行业协会可以就垄断协议是否符合《反垄断法》第二十条规定的情形和条件,为 本行业的经营者提供指导,并支持本行业的经营者向反垄断执法机构提出豁免申 请。     第十二条 行业协会的经营者身份     行业协会从事商品生产、经营或者提供服务,属于《反垄断法》第十五条规定的 经营者时,不得违反《反垄断法》规定,从事垄断协议、滥用市场支配地位行为以 及违法实施经营者集中。     第十三条 滥用行政权力排除、限制竞争     经法律、法规授权具有管理公共事务职能的行业协会不得违反《反垄断法》第五 章的规定,滥用行政权力实施限定交易、通过签订合作协议或备忘录等方式妨碍经 营者进入相关市场或对经营者实行不平等待遇、妨碍商品自由流通、排除或限制经 营者参加招投标等经营活动、限制或强制经营者设立分支机构、强制经营者从事垄 断行为、制定含有排除限制竞争内容的规定等排除、限制竞争行为。     第十四条 协助行政机关滥用行政权力排除、限制竞争     行业协会不得基于行政机关的要求、委托,或者通过与行政机关联合制定发布规 定、办法、决定、公告、通知、意见、函件、会议纪要,签订合作协议、备忘录等 方式,协助行政机关实施滥用行政权力排除、限制竞争行为。     第十五条 公平竞争审查     经法律、法规授权具有管理公共事务职能的行业协会制定涉及经营主体经济活动的 规范性文件、其他政策性文件以及“一事一议”形式的具体政策措施时,应当按照《反 垄断法》及相关规定的要求进行公平竞争审查,评估对市场竞争的影响,防止排除、 限制竞争。     第十六条 自律合规倡导     行业协会应当借助连接政府与经营主体的独特优势,发挥提供服务、反映诉求、 规范行为等职能,促进行业规范健康持续发展。     鼓励和支持行业协会充分发挥自律职能,加强自身反垄断合规建设,采取行业规 则、公约以及市场自治规则等方式,指导、帮助会员建立健全反垄断合规管理制 度,尽早识别、防范反垄断合规风险。     第十七条 内部合规管理     行业协会应当加强内部合规管理,避免从事或者被会员控制利用从事违反《反垄 断法》的行为,破坏市场竞争秩序。鼓励行业协会建立有效的反垄断合规管理制 度,或者在现有合规管理制度中加强反垄断合规管理,采取包括但不限于以下措 施: 6/11/26, 10:05 AM 国务院反垄断反不正当竞争委员会关于行业协会的反垄断指南 https://www.samr.gov.cn/zw/zfxxgk/fdzdgknr/fldzfys/art/2024/art_3ce3a7fec76146cfb8a7927db10683b2.html 3/5

    (一)制定反垄断合规行为准则;     (二)建立反垄断合规承诺机制;     (三)设置反垄断合规部门或者人员;     (四)建立反垄断合规奖惩制度;     (五)加强反垄断合规培训。     第十八条 合规风险识别与控制     行业协会可以根据法律规定、行业特征、市场情况等识别现实和潜在的反垄断合 规风险,并采取相应的预防措施。     鼓励行业协会制修订行业协会章程、规则、决定、通知、意见、标准、自律公约等 时,对是否涉嫌违反《反垄断法》及相关规定进行审查。涉嫌违反上述法律规定的, 不予发布或者调整至符合要求后发布。     鼓励行业协会建立反垄断合规举报机制,为协会工作人员、会员等举报涉嫌违反 《反垄断法》的行为提供便利,并承诺为举报人的信息保密、不因举报行为采取任 何对其不利的措施。     第十九条 加强沟通     鼓励行业协会主动与反垄断执法机构沟通,提供行业市场竞争状况、经营者情况 等材料,提出加强和改进反垄断执法的意见建议。     反垄断执法机构及其工作人员对执法过程中知悉的商业秘密、个人隐私和个人信 息,依法负有保密义务。     第二十条 加强合规指导     行业协会可以通过以下方式,预防和制止会员从事违反《反垄断法》的行为:     (一)指导会员加强反垄断合规管理;     (二)对会员开展反垄断合规培训,提示会员不得以行业协会为平台或者媒介从 事垄断行为;     (三)发现会员涉嫌从事垄断协议等违法行为时,采取告诫、通报、取消会员资 格等措施进行教育惩戒;     (四)其他指导会员加强反垄断合规的措施。     发生前款第三项情形的,鼓励行业协会及时向反垄断执法机构举报,或者指导会 员尽早向反垄断执法机构报告从事垄断协议的有关情况并提供重要证据,同时提醒 会员停止涉嫌违法行为并配合调查。对符合宽大适用条件的经营者,反垄断执法机 构可以依法减轻或者免除处罚。     第二十一条 配合调查     行业协会发现自身行为涉嫌违反《反垄断法》规定的,或者已被反垄断执法机构 依法立案或者启动调查程序的,应当立即停止相关行为,主动向反垄断执法机构报 告有关情况,并配合反垄断执法机构的后续调查,不得拒绝、阻碍反垄断执法机构 的调查。     第二十二条 配合约谈     行业协会及其会员涉嫌违反《反垄断法》规定的,反垄断执法机构可以对其法定 代表人或者负责人进行约谈。行业协会及其会员应当按照反垄断执法机构的要求予 以整改,提出消除行为后果的具体措施、履行时限等,并提交书面报告。     反垄断执法机构可以将约谈情况通报行业管理部门、社会团体登记管理机关,也 可以根据需要邀请上述部门共同实施约谈。     第二十三条 法律责任     行业协会从事或者组织本行业的经营者从事垄断行为,行业协会和经营者应当依 据《反垄断法》的规定分别承担相应的法律责任。     反垄断执法机构确定行业协会和经营者的法律责任时,应当考虑违法行为的性 质、程度、持续时间、消除违法行为后果的情况、行业协会发挥的作用、经营者发 挥的作用、垄断协议实施的情况等因素。     行业协会具有主动消除或者减轻违法行为危害后果、配合反垄断执法机构查处垄 断行为有立功表现等情形的,反垄断执法机构应当依法从轻或者减轻处罚。     行业协会具有胁迫会员达成垄断协议、阻止会员退出垄断协议、一年内因同一性 质违法行为受过行政处罚等情形的,反垄断执法机构可以依法从重处罚。 6/11/26, 10:05 AM 国务院反垄断反不正当竞争委员会关于行业协会的反垄断指南 https://www.samr.gov.cn/zw/zfxxgk/fdzdgknr/fldzfys/art/2024/art_3ce3a7fec76146cfb8a7927db10683b2.html 4/5

    第二十四条 信用惩戒     对因违反《反垄断法》被列入活动异常名录和严重违法失信名单的行业协会,反 垄断执法机构可以将其作为重点监管对象。     第二十五条 加强部门协调     反垄断执法机构与社会团体登记管理机关、行业管理部门等加强沟通协调,推进 竞争监管和市场准入、行业监管等更加紧密衔接,由监管执法的个案对接转向深层 次制度对接,提高监管执法效能,形成协同规制合力。     第二十六条 指南的解释     本指南由国务院反垄断反不正当竞争委员会办公室解释,自发布之日起施行。 中国政府网 国家药品监督管理局 相关链接 国务院部门 机关司局 联系方式 网站地图 网站声明 版权所有:国家市场监督管理总局 网站标识码bm30000012    京ICP备18022388号-1    京公网安备 11040102700165号 地址:北京市海淀区马甸东路9号    邮政编码:100088 官方微信 官方微博 6/11/26, 10:05 AM 国务院反垄断反不正当竞争委员会关于行业协会的反垄断指南 https://www.samr.gov.cn/zw/zfxxgk/fdzdgknr/fldzfys/art/2024/art_3ce3a7fec76146cfb8a7927db10683b2.html 5/5

The First Conduct Rule Guideline 27 July 2015

Page 13 of 75 2.33 The Commission considers that the prohibition in the First Conduct Rule of an undertaking making or giving effect to an anti-competitive decision of an association of undertakings is intended to prohibit indirect anti-competitive cooperation between undertakings through an association. 2.34 The reference to an association of undertakings in the First Conduct Rule is not limited to any particular kind of association. Examples of associations of undertakings include trade associations, cooperatives, professional associations or bodies, societies, associations without legal personality, associations of associations etc.15 The mere fact that a professional association has statutory or regulatory functions does not mean that it is not an association of undertakings or that its decisions do not have the object or effect of harming competition. 2.35 The Commission considers a decision of an association of undertakings to include, without limitation, the constitution of the association, rules of the association, resolutions, rulings, decisions, guidelines or recommendations of the association, whether made by the board, members, a committee or an employee of the association. 2.36 A decision of an association may fall within the First Conduct Rule even if it is non-binding. For example, recommended fee scales and “reference” prices of trade and professional associations are decisions of associations of undertakings which the Commission would likely consider as having the object of harming competition. 2.37 Where undertakings, as members of an association of undertakings, make or give effect to a decision of the association of undertakings which has the object or effect of harming competition, the undertakings and the association may both incur liability under the Ordinance. 15 An association of undertakings may also be an undertaking to the extent that it is engaged in economic activity (see paragraphs 2.2 and 2.3 of this Guideline), and may, in that capacity, contravene the First Conduct Rule by making or giving effect to an agreement or engaging in a concerted practice which has the object or effect of harming competition.

Page 25 of 75 6.11 Horizontal price fixing may take a number of forms. It may, for example, involve directly agreeing upon a specified price, the amount or percentage by which prices are to be increased or a price range. Price in this context includes any element of price and, in particular, includes any discount, rebate, allowance, price concession or other advantage in relation to the supply of products. An agreement with respect to an element of price amounts to price fixing. 6.12 Price fixing can be achieved by indirect means. This includes where, for example, undertakings agree not to quote a price without consulting competitors, or not to charge less than any other price in the market. Similarly, the exchange of information on future price intentions may be assessed as price fixing.24 6.13 An agreement concerning price may still amount to price fixing even if it does not entirely eliminate all price competition. Competition may, for example, be harmed despite the ability to grant discounts up to a certain agreed level on a published list price or notwithstanding that parties only fix one price component while competing on others. 6.14 Price fixing might arise through the activities of a trade association or professional body. For example, the association might issue a recommendation to members on prices and/or publish (possibly non-binding) fee scales for members. The non-binding price recommendations or fee scales of a trade association will likely be assessed as having the object of harming competition, as ultimately these arrangements may not differ in substance to a direct agreement or concerted practice between the members of the association. 6.15 The Commission considers that horizontal price fixing agreements are Serious Anti- competitive Conduct under the Ordinance. 6.16 The Commission notes that certain legitimate commercial arrangements may involve parties agreeing on pricing within the context of the relevant arrangements. For example, the parties to a production joint venture might agree that the joint venture will sell its jointly produced products at a particular price. In this respect, the Commission takes the view that the joint setting of the price of such products will not be considered as having the object of harming competition if, for example, the joint sales are necessary for the joint production to be implemented.25 24 See paragraphs 6.38 to 6.49 of this Guideline for a discussion of when exchanges of information may give rise to competition concerns. 25 See also paragraphs 3.28 to 3.33 of this Guideline which concern restrictions necessary for a legitimate commercial purpose.

Competition (Application of Provisions) Regulation (Cap. 619 sub. leg. A) Contents Section Page 1. (Omitted as spent) 2 2. Statutory bodies specified for purpose of section 3(2)(a) of Ordinance 2 Schedule Statutory Bodies Specified for Purpose of Section 3(2)(a) of Ordinance S-2 Last updated date 7.7.2015 Competition (Application of Provisions) Regulation T-2 Cap. 619A

Competition (Application of Provisions) Regulation (Cap. 619, section 5(1)(a)) (Enacting provision omitted—E.R. 2 of 2015)

[17 April 2015] L.N. 39 of 2015

(Omitted as spent—E.R. 2 of 2015)

Statutory bodies specified for purpose of section 3(2)(a) of Ordinance The provisions referred to in section 3(1) of the Ordinance apply to the statutory bodies specified in the Schedule. Last updated date 7.7.2015 Competition (Application of Provisions) Regulation

2 Section 1 Cap. 619A Verified Copy

Schedule [s. 2] Statutory Bodies Specified for Purpose of Section 3(2)(a) of Ordinance

Ocean Park Corporation.

Matilda and War Memorial Hospital.

Kadoorie Farm and Botanic Garden Corporation.

The Helena May.

Federation of Hong Kong Industries.

The general committee of the Federation of Hong Kong Industries. Last updated date 17.4.2015 Competition (Application of Provisions) Regulation Schedule S-2 Section 1 Cap. 619A Verified Copy

FD06231 | 2025_港澳台_香港大埔宏福苑-特别重大火灾事故调查报告(竞争事务委员会结案陈词).pdf

分类:06_境外及港澳台调查报告 | 年份:2025 | 地域:香港 | 严重程度:特别重大 | 场所: | 起火原因: | 来源格式:pdf

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Re. Independent Committee in relation to the fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po (“IC”)

Written Closing Address of the Competition Commission (“CC”)

Introduction

This is the written closing address of the CC with regards to §§2 to 4 of the Terms of Reference (“ToR”).

The CC has previously filed three sets of written submissions in these proceedings:

(1) the CC’s written opening address to the IC dated 9 March 2026 (“CC’s Opening”)1;

(2) the CC’s written report to the IC dated 14 May 2026 (“CC’s Written Report”) 2; and

(3) the CC’s recommendations in relation to ToR (2) dated 17 June 2026 (“CC’s Written Recommendations”).

In addition to providing an overview of what has already been submitted, these submissions will aim to provide the IC with the CC’s final observations on ToR (2)-(4).

In summary, the CC’s position (much of which has previously been set out) is as follows:

Re. ToR (2)

(1) There are widespread, systematic, and longstanding practices among a sizable number of building maintenance contractors to affect the outcome of tenders for building maintenance works.

(2) Such practices are sometimes (although not necessarily) facilitated by malpractices from supposedly independent consultants that have been engaged by the owners of the relevant buildings.

1 https://www.ic-wangfukcourtfire.gov.hk/pdf/docs/Opening-Address-CC_20260324.pdf 2 https://www.ic-wangfukcourtfire.gov.hk/pdf/docs/CC-report-for-IC.pdf

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(3) Such practices extend beyond “bid-rigging” as defined under s.2 of the Competition Ordinance (Cap. 619) (“CO”). In fact, they may include other forms of serious anti-competitive conduct such as:

(a) exchanging competitively sensitive information (e.g. price);

(b) engaging in an overarching market-sharing agreement; and

(c) sharing of company credentials so as to facilitate the submission of cover-bids.

(4) There exists the practice of phantom-bidding (e.g. where one undertaking sets up a number of ostensibly independent companies that end up bidding “against” one another). Depending on the extent to which the “phantom-bidders” may be regarded as truly “separate” businesses, this practice may fall outside the ambit of the CO if it is not regarded as involving an agreement between undertakings.

(5) There exist syndicate-led cartels whereby there are clear systems of “registration”, dissemination of “homework” (i.e. pricing and bidding instructions), and the presence of ring-leaders / coordinators. These syndicates may work with, as well as against, each other in any given tender.

(6) In line with the observations of the Police Force and the Independent Commission Against Corruption (“ICAC”), a number of building maintenance contractors and consultants are believed to be affiliated with triad societies in Hong Kong. Such triad involvement may, in turn, facilitate the operation / continuance of these anticompetitive practices through unlawful means (e.g. through the threat or use of violence). Re. ToR (3)-(4) (7) While anticompetitive agreements and concerted practices are currently captured by the CO and the submission of rigged-bids may, in certain circumstances, be caught by the offence of fraud / conspiracy to defraud, the existing regulatory framework and applicable penalties do not provide sufficient deterrence against would-be cartelists.

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(8) Accordingly, the CC is supportive of any measures that are capable of meaningfully enhancing the deterrent effect of regulation through:

(a) increasing the chances of detection and successful prosecution;

(b) strengthening the sanctions against both the businesses and the individuals that are involved; and

(c) through a combination of (a) and (b) above, ensuring that cartelists are unable to profit from their anticompetitive behaviour.

(9) To this end, the CC will be proposing:

(a) that the CO be amended to expressly provide for a “dual track” enforcement model such that:

(i) natural persons who are involved in serious anti- competitive conduct in relation to the calling of any bids / tenders in Hong Kong (such as by way of bid- rigging, price-fixing, market-sharing, and output limitation) may be criminally prosecuted and face severe custodial sentences. The civil regime shall remain intact such that depending on the severity of his/her conduct and the level of involvement, civil proceedings against natural persons involved in serious anti-competitive conduct may be opted for in lieu of criminal prosecution; and

(ii) at the same time, businesses that are found to have engaged in the same conduct will remain caught by the civil regime under the CO before the Competition Tribunal (“Tribunal”) and be liable for sweeping pecuniary penalties, the maximum of which will be uplifted through legislative amendment;

(b) insofar as civil proceedings for pecuniary penalties are concerned, the CO should expressly stipulate that the

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applicable standard of proof is the civil standard. This will ensure that this aspect of the CO’s enforcement is on par with international best practices in other developed economies. In short, there is no reason why our legislation should remain silent on such an important issue - which in turn, has rendered seeking pecuniary penalties against cartelists more difficult and almost impossible in cases involving complex economic analysis; and

(c) the CO should expressly incorporate certain statutory presumptions that are in line with well-established overseas jurisprudence. For example, where it is proven that competitors (e.g. building maintenance contractors) had exchanged competitively sensitive information (e.g. through the dissemination of “homework”), there should be a statutory presumption that they had done so in order to influence each other’s behaviour on the relevant market and that such an exchange did, in fact, have that effect. Re. Fee-Scales (10) Finally, in the event that the IC (or other Involved Parties) are minded to recommend the adoption of fee-scales, it is the CC’s recommendation that:

(a) the fee-scale be compiled in circumstances that do not involve concertation between consultants / contractors (i.e. between competitors);

(b) great care should be taken to ensure that the prices used for benchmarking purposes are reasonable and competitive; and

(c) the use of fee-scales should not be the only form of due diligence that needs to be carried out as:

(i) there may be legitimate reasons why a particular consultant will be bidding aggressively in any given tender; and

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(ii) conversely, just because a consultant’s bid is “within range”, this does not mean that the bid submitted must ipso facto be free from manipulation. Part 1: Systematic Problems in Large-Scale Building Maintenance and Renovation Works in Hong Kong (ToR (2))

In line with the observations of the Police Force and the ICAC, the CC is of the view that there are, indeed, widespread, systematic, and longstanding practices between some building maintenance contractors to affect the outcome of tenders for building maintenance works.3

Such practices are:

(1) Widespread: in that geographically it covers buildings in the whole of Hong Kong and involves a substantial number of building maintenance contractors and consultants.

(2) Systematic: especially where syndicates are involved whereby there are clear systems of “registration”, dissemination of “homework” and existence of ring-leaders / coordinators.

(3) Longstanding: almost every witness who has been willing to attest to the above practices has attributed this to being a longstanding trade practice in Hong Kong.

Below are some examples which the CC has uncovered concerning how such systematic problems may impact the building maintenance sector. The operation of bid-rigging syndicates

In Competition Commission v Cheung Kwing Kuen & 19 Others, CTEA 1 / 2026, the CC brought enforcement proceedings for pecuniary penalties, director disqualification orders etc. against 20 businesses and individuals after forming the view that they are part of a large-scale bid- rigging syndicate operating all over Hong Kong. 3 c.f. in particular: paragraph 28 (Police Force’s observations on involvement of triad involvement in the building maintenance works sector), Witness Statement of Lam Kai-Chor (“LKC W/S”): https://www.ic- wangfukcourtfire.gov.hk/pdf/docs/Witness-Statement-Lam_Kai_Chor.pdf; and paragraphs 33 (statistics of complaints to the ICAC), 43-97 (the ICAC case studies), and 98-101 (conclusions from the ICAC), ICAC’s Report for the Independent Committee in relation to fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po (January 2026) (“ICAC Report”): https://www.ic-wangfukcourtfire.gov.hk/pdf/docs/ICAC-report-for-IC.pdf.

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In particular, the CC has evidence to show that: (1) The 1st Respondent, Mr. Cheung Kwing Kuen (“Cheung”) also known by his alias “Dai B” (大B) had, himself and/or through various companies under his control operated as (or through) a syndicate and was involved in at least 11 tenders for building maintenance work spanning Hong Kong Island, Kowloon and New Territories over the course of 2 years.

(2) The modus operandi of the syndicate was highly sophisticated and organized - utilising and deploying various codes and jargons such as “homework” (i.e. pricing and bidding instructions), “main character” (i.e. the designated winner), “helper” (i.e. the designated cover-bidders), and “blow the whistle” (i.e. the summoning of other businesses / persons to assist).

(3) The scale and objective of the syndicate was, or at least had the potential to be, a sizable one. In one communication between Cheung and his associates, he opined that he was confident in securing a 25% market share on the relevant market.4

In terms of how the syndicate operated: upon Cheung and his associates identifying a particular tender opportunity which they wish to secure, Cheung and/or businesses under his control would prepare and distribute “homework” to selected building contractors. These building contractors would then either entirely “copy” the terms of the “homework” in their own bids in the relevant tender or at least make references to the terms therein - in both cases to ensure that the chances of the “main character” (the designated winner) winning the tender would be increased.

Finally, it is significant to note that the anticompetitive practices deployed by members of the syndicate extended well beyond just bid-rigging. In fact, almost in every project where the syndicate had tried to rig the outcome of a tender, it had also engaged in:

(1) Price-fixing;

(2) Exchanging competitively sensitive information; and

(3) Market allocation / sharing;

4 See. paragraph 28 of the CC’s Originating Notice of Application in CTEA 1 / 2026 (“ONA”): https://www.ic- wangfukcourtfire.gov.hk/pdf/docs/CC-originating-notice-of-application.pdf.

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all of which, along with bid-rigging, are also regarded as “serious anti- competitive conduct” under the CO.5

The CC would like to stress that the respondents in CTEA 1 / 2026 have yet to file their defence in the proceedings and that the allegations of the CC as set out above and in its ONA remain to be tested before the Tribunal.

Notwithstanding the above, CTEA 1 / 2026 represents one of the syndicates operating in the building maintenance sector which are under active investigation by the CC.

Involvement of triads / tainted consultants

With respect to the involvement of triads and tainted consultants, the CC’s own experiences and observations are ad idem with the general observations of the Police Force and the ICAC.6

As set out in one of the Case Studies provided by the CC in its Written Report, the CC has previously encountered cases where building maintenance contractors would, through concertation with the supposedly independent consultant, use threats of or actual violence to dissuade other contractors from bidding in tenders. On that occasion, the threat of and actual violence was delivered by a person claiming to be a member of a triad society.7

The potential presence / prevalence of tainted consultants was also alluded to by the CC’s own market study in 2016 which revealed suspicious patterns that are consistent with there being widespread bid-manipulation practices in Hong Kong. In particular:

5 c.f. paragraphs 53-71 ONA. 6 See. in particular: ICAC Report at [95] “[i]n many instances the contractor was often part of a crime syndicate with triad connection, who would collude with the consultant and other contractors to rig the bids… in order to manipulate the selection of the contractor for the project” and at [99] “[o]rganized syndicates, employing illicit methods such as corruption, triad tactics, bid-rigging and fraud to manipulate the tendering processes, are driven by the potential profits to seek a dominant market share.”; and LKC W/S at [28] “Triad involvement takes many forms, including direct involvement and discreet approaches through front persons, influence over “concern groups” or participation via indirect links with consultants or contractors. It may be inaccurate to assume that triads are always the dominant driver or that they are significant involved because many bid-rigging schemes are organized and executed by ordinary market players, with triad elements engaged only at particular stages, or not at all. When someone has to “do the dirty work" and the use of some forms of suppression and/or violence is essential, triads would then become the “enforcer". Having said that, intelligence indicated that a small number of triads had set up and were operating their own consultant and contractor companies to participate in building maintenance works.” 7 Case Study (1), paragraph 13, CC’s Written Report: https://www.ic-wangfukcourtfire.gov.hk/pdf/docs/CC- report-for-IC.pdf

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(1) A substantial number of bids which supposedly independent consultants had submitted fell below the minimum cost of providing the relevant services. This would suggest that unless the consultants were willing to engage in loss-making behaviour (which generally makes no commercial sense), these consultants might have expected to be remunerated through other (possibly nefarious) means.

(2) In a number of instances, consultants were recorded as having priced their bids in circumstances that did not appear to have any meaningful correlation with the size of the project. This, in turn, suggests that these consultants might have priced their bids in circumstances that were unrelated to the projected costs in undertaking the relevant works.

(3) Statistically, the frequency in which certain consultants would end up working with certain contractors would lend support to the existence of some form of vertical cooperation between the consultant and the chosen contractor.

In the foregoing circumstances, the CC supports and concurs with the views expressed by the Police Force and the ICAC on the prevalence of triad / corruption in the building maintenance sector. Phantom Bidding

Finally, the CC has observed that there exists the practice of phantom- bidding (e.g. where one undertaking sets up a number of ostensibly independent companies that end up bidding “against” one another).

Depending on the extent to which the “phantom-bidders” may be regarded as truly “separate” businesses, this practice may fall outside the ambit of the CO if it is not regarded as involving an agreement between undertakings.

Since this practice may be capable of misleading the procurer into believing that it is receiving independently articulated bids, it may be prudent for procurers to require any prospective bidders to make corresponding declarations of ultimate beneficial ownership so as to allow the procurer to easily ascertain which bidders may be under common de facto control / ownership.8

8 This being one of the primary purposes of the CC’s amendments to the model “Non-Collusion Clauses” in 2023. See also: paragraph 22 of CC’s Written Opening and paragraphs 23 - 24 of CC’s Written Report.

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Part 2: Existing Regulations and Penalties and the CC’s Recommendations (ToR (3) and (4)) ToR (3)

In terms of existing regulations and penalties, these have been extensively set out in: (1) paragraphs 14 - 26 of CC’s Written Opening; and

(2) paragraphs 15 - 27 of CC’s Written Report;

the contents of which will not be repeated herein.

Notwithstanding the fact that: (1) the CO has been in full commencement since December 2015 and that bid-rigging and related anticompetitive practices are clearly prohibited by the CO; and

(2) persons involved in rigging building maintenance tenders may, themselves, be criminally liable for fraud / conspiracy to defraud if they had knowingly made false representations in the course of bidding,

the CC is of the view that the existing regulatory framework and applicable penalties are not sufficiently deterrent against existing / would-be cartelists.

That this is the case may be the result of a host of factors most notably: (1) the highly lucrative reward for cartelists (c.f. the ICAC’s conclusion at paragraph 99 of the ICAC Report and paragraph 36 of LKC W/S);

(2) the perceived “weakness” in sanctions for breaching the CO - which has, time and again, been labeled as “only being civil in nature” (c.f. the Police Force’s conclusion at paragraph 36 of LKC W/S); and

(3) the secretive nature of such conduct (especially if the secrecy is backed up by threats from organized crime) and the corresponding high standard of proof required for criminal prosecution (c.f. paragraph 96 of the ICAC Report on both propositions; and

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paragraph 37 of LKC W/S on the secretive nature of collusive activities and ineffectiveness of traditional investigative tools).

ToR (4)

To address the systemic problems identified above (in particular at paragraph 23), the CC’s recommendations are as follows: Criminalisation

(1) First, the CC considers that it is high time for the CO to be amended to expressly criminalise any sort of serious anti-competitive conduct (as defined in the CO) that are capable of affecting the outcome of a bid / tender carried out in Hong Kong.

(2) This may be done with reference to / on top of the existing provisions under s.91 CO which already provides for liability for natural persons who are involved in a contravention of the conduct rules (including bid-rigging).

(3) Importantly, other forms of serious anti-competitive conduct should also be criminalised (not just bid-rigging) because, as set out at paragraph 11 above, bid-rigging seldom occurs alone. It is usually further or in addition to other forms of serious anti-competitive conduct which should also be criminalised lest there be any lacuna in the future legislation.

(4) The operation of criminal sanctions should be targeted against natural persons with severe maximum sentences that are capable of both general and specific deterrence. Existing provisions concerning civil sanctions against natural persons should, however, still be retained such that depending on the severity of his/her conduct and the level of involvement, civil proceedings against natural persons involved in serious anti-competitive conduct may be opted for in lieu of criminal prosecution.

(5) As for the underlying businesses, these should remain within the purview of the existing provisions of the CO such that, in any given case where the CC has proof that they have engaged in bid-rigging etc., they will be liable for sweeping pecuniary penalties. The effectiveness of the deterrence against these businesses should, in turn, be enhanced through the legislative amendments to the CO that will:

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(i) clarify the applicable standard of proof to be applied in proceedings involving pecuniary penalty; and

(ii) establish certain statutory presumptions in aid of prosecution.

c.f. paragraphs 24(7) - (8) below.

(6) The operation of this newly created criminal regime may be in a “dual track” format with appropriate safeguards (much like the “dual track” model adopted in the Securities and Futures Ordinance (Cap. 571)) to ensure that, in the interest of fairness, the same individual will not be prosecuted against twice in respect of the same conduct.

Other Amendments to the CO

(7) Secondly, the CO should be expressly amended to make clear that even in proceedings where the CC is seeking pecuniary penalties, the applicable standard of proof should be that of the civil standard. This will ensure that this aspect of the CO’s enforcement is on par with international best practices in other developed economies. 9 There is no discernable reason why our legislation should remain silent on such an important issue - which in turn, has had the unintended consequences of rendering seeking pecuniary penalties against cartelists more difficult and almost impossible in cases involving complex economic analysis.

(8) Thirdly, the CO should expressly incorporate certain statutory presumptions that are in line with well-established overseas jurisprudence. For example, where it is proven that competitors (e.g. building maintenance contractors) had exchanged competitively sensitive information (e.g. through the dissemination of “homework”), there should be a statutory presumption that they had done so in order to influence each other’s behaviour on the relevant market and that such an exchange did, in fact, have that effect.

(9) Finally, the maximum amount of pecuniary penalty (currently for an undertaking it is at 10% of its Hong Kong turnover for each year of contravention, up to a maximum of 3 years) and maximum period of

9 For example: the United Kingdom, Australia, European Union, Singapore, and New Zealand.

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director disqualification (currently at 5 years) should be substantially increased. This should obviously be without prejudice to any sort of considerations of inability to pay / undue harshness etc. which a respondent may still properly submit in mitigation.

Part 3: Fee-Scales 25. The CC has previously provided its written response at paragraphs 4 - 31 of CC’s Written Recommendations setting out why:

(1) fee-scales that are compiled by members of a trade association discussing / agreeing on prospective prices will likely contravene the First Conduct Rule under the CO (“FCR”); and

(2) fee-scales that are compiled by a statutory body (such as the Urban Renewal Authority) in circumstances that do not involve collusion between businesses will unlikely contravene the FCR.

If it is the intention of the IC (or other Involved Parties) to recommend the adoption of a set of fee-scales for future references, the CC repeats its recommendations that: (1) the fee-scale be compiled in circumstances that do not involve concertation between consultants / contractors (i.e. between competitors);

(2) great care should be taken to ensure that the prices used for benchmarking purposes are reasonable and competitive rather than distorted because of anti-competitive practices; and

(3) the use of fee-scales should not be the only form of due diligence that needs to be carried out as:

(i) there may be legitimate reasons why a particular consultant will be bidding aggressively in any given tender; and

(ii) conversely, just because a consultant’s bid is “within range”, this does not mean that the bid submitted must ipso facto be free from manipulation.

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Concluding Remarks

The CC was, and remains, one of the key stakeholders and parties responsible for rooting out all anticompetitive conduct in the building maintenance sector where the consumers (i.e. residents) may be particularly vulnerable given the peculiarities of the market.

The CC hopes that these submissions have adequately addressed ToR (2) - (4) and will welcome any opportunity to further address / assist the IC as may be required / necessary.

Dated the 7th day of July 2026.

Competition Commission

FD06232 | 2025_港澳台_香港大埔宏福苑-特别重大火灾事故调查程序规则.pdf

分类:06_境外及港澳台调查报告 | 年份:2025 | 地域:香港 | 严重程度:特别重大 | 场所: | 起火原因: | 来源格式:pdf

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(譯本) 就大埔宏福苑火災成立的獨立委員會

聽證會程序規則 (2026 年2 月5 日指示會議時作出)

獨立委員會(“委員會”)將就政府於2025 年12 月12 日公布 的委員會職權範圍中所列事項,聽取證據 (“聽證會”)。 I. 一般事宜 日期及時間 2. 聽證會將於香港中環愛丁堡廣場3 號展城館3 樓進行,並 將於2026 年3 月19 日上午10 時展開。 3. 聽證會將持續進行,但委員會可不時按需要考慮押後聽證 會。 4. 除非另有指示,聽證會的時間為星期一至五上午10 時至下 午1 時,以及下午2 時15 分至下午4 時30 分。委員會在 有需要時可指示在上文第2 及第3 段所述期間內的星期六 上午繼續進行聽證會。 參與及法律代表 5. 任何一方如欲(1)參與聽證會;(2)傳召證人;及/或(3)提 供任何證人供詞及/或資料用於聽證會之用途(而其尚未獲

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委員會批准參與聽證會)必須在2026 年2 月12 日或之前向 委員會提出書面申請(“參與申請”)並述明其申請理由。 6. 委員會可批准或不批准任何參與申請並在適當的情況下就 某方在聽證會的參與範圍施加限制及/或規定委員會將以 何等方式接收其證據。 7. 除非委員會另作指示,獲得委員會批准參與聽證會並在會 上傳召證人或提供證人供詞及/或資料的任何一方 (“涉事 一方”)必須: (1) 在2026 年2 月23 日或之前向委員會提交將予傳召的 證人的證人供詞及/或擬提供的資料;以及 (2) 在2026 年2 月23 日或之前向秘書處提供涉事一方代 表的姓名、職銜、電話號碼及電郵地址以供秘書處用 於發放有關聽證會後勤安排的信息。 8. 所有提供予委員會的申請、陳詞、證人供詞或資料均須交 予 秘 書 處 並 以 電 郵 發 送 至 ,或以傳真發送至23331302, 或以郵遞方式寄送至香港灣仔告士打道7 號入境事務大樓 10 樓。 公眾旁聽 9. 除非委員會另有指示,聽證會將開放予公眾人士。

  1. 在未經委員會授權下,一律不准聽證會進行期間在香港中

環愛丁堡廣場3 號展城館的聽證會場地範圍內以及在委員 會所設立的(所有)聆訊轉播區內拍照、錄音或錄影。

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II. 口頭聽證會程序 聽證會文件冊以及文件和資料的使用

  1. 秘書處將擬備文件冊以供在聽證會上使用。文件冊只以電

子方式提供予涉事各方並只載有委員會認為相關且適宜加 入的文件。委員會亦可對文件冊內文件的部分內容作出其 認為適當的遮蓋。

  1. 任何一方如欲在聽證會文件冊中加入其他文件,必須向秘

書處提出書面申請( 並同時須向委員會的律師送交一份副 本)。

  1. 所有由委員會提供予涉事各方的資料只能用於聽證會之用

途。在未經委員會書面批准下,不得向公眾發放任何該等 資料。任何人士及實體(不論有否法律代表)(“人士及實體”) 在委員會(及/或其法律代表)向其發放及提供任何資料的同 時,該等人士及實體,以及其律師及大律師(如該等人士及 實體有法律代表)亦被視為已作出承諾,即無論在任何情況 下,他們在未經委員會書面批准下均不得向任何其他涉事 各方、其他人士及/或其他實體,發放及/或披露該等資 料及其所載的資訊、內容及來源。

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開場陳詞

  1. 委員會的代表大律師可作出書面及口頭開場陳詞。任何涉

事一方如欲作出口頭開場陳詞,必須在2026 年3 月9 日或 之前向委員會提出申請(並隨申請附上一份不多於20 頁的 書面開場陳詞,字體大小須為14 號,頁面邊距須為1 吋)。

  1. 委員會可行使其酌情權決定該等口頭陳詞的先後次序及時

間,惟涉事各方的任何口頭開場陳詞不得超過30 分鐘,並 緊接在委員會的代表大律師陳詞完畢後隨即進行。

  1. 按委員會的酌情權及作出其認為適當的遮蓋下,任何提交

予委員會的書面開場陳詞,將被上載至委員會的網站。 收取證據

  1. 委員會不受證據規則約束,並可收取及考慮以口述證供、

書面陳述、文件或任何其他方式提供的材料,即使該等材 料在民事或刑事法律程序中不屬可接納的證據。

  1. 證人可按其屬意使用的語言或方言作供,但如果證人欲在

聽證會上使用英語、普通話或本地話以外的任何語言或方 言作供,則必須在2026 年3 月9 日前通知秘書處。委員會 將提供即時傳譯服務。

  1. 任何證人在作供前,須聲明其所作的證供盡其所知所悉及

所信均屬真實。

5

(1) 委員會將決定在聽證會中作出口述證供的先後次序,並 將在聽證會期間公布聽證時間表。 (2) 委員會的代表大律師會向委員會傳召的證人提問。任何 涉事一方如欲向該證人提問,並已獲委員會批准,可隨 後按委員會決定的先後次序提問。任何涉事一方如欲向 委員會的證人提問,須在委員會的代表大律師完成提問 後提出申請,並扼要說明擬提問的範圍。委員會的代表 大律師可覆問該證人。 (3) 如涉事某方傳召證人,則除非委員會另有批准,該涉事 一方的法律代表不可向該證人作出主問。在聽證會上, 委員會的代表大律師會向任何涉事一方傳召的證人提 問。任何其他涉事一方隨後如欲向涉事某方的證人提 問,並已獲委員會批准,可按委員會決定的先後次序提 問。任何其他涉事一方如欲向涉事某方的證人提問,須 在委員會的代表大律師完成提問後提出申請,並扼要說 明擬提問的範圍。最後,傳召證人的涉事某方的法律代 表可覆問該證人。 (4) 除非委員會另有指示,任何證人如屬意以其證人供詞作 為其證供(不論有否對該供詞作出修改或闡述),該證人 供詞的內容不會在聽證會上讀出。 (5) 在任何證人作出口述證供的過程中,委員會可隨時向該 口述證供的證人提問。

出的問題是否相關,並可隨時就任何證人的口述證供設定 6

時限。具體而言,委員會就涉事各方提問證人的申請作出 裁定時,將考慮包括證人供詞與相關涉事一方權益的相關 性、確保聽證會公平並有效進行的必要性,以及委員會認 為相關的其他因素。

  1. 委員會可再度傳召任何已作口述證供的人士回答進一步的

提問。 總結陳詞

  1. 委員會的代表大律師和涉事各方的代表大律師可作出書面

總結陳詞,並在委員會的指示下作出口述總結陳詞。委員 會可決定該等(書面及口述)陳詞的形式、先後次序及時間長 短。

  1. 按委員會的酌情權及作出其認為適當的遮蓋下,任何提交

予委員會的書面總結陳詞,將被上載至委員會的網站。 謄本

  1. 秘書處將為聽證會安排即時謄寫服務。任何涉事一方如欲

訂購即時謄寫服務,須在2026 年2 月27 日或之前,向委 員會秘書處提出書面申請,述明需訂購的數量和承諾支付 訂購費用。訂購者如欲在聽證會期間閱覽實時謄本,須使 用自己的便攜式電腦或筆記簿型電腦閱覽,並須直接與服 務提供者作出安排。

  1. 委員會取得每天聽證會的謄本後,便會向委員會的代表大

律師,以及獲批准參與聽證會的相關涉事各方的法律代 表,提供有關謄本的電子副本。按委員會的酌情權,有關 謄本會上載至委員會網站。

7

定。在整個聽證會過程中,代表委員會的大律師和律師均 會獲編配固定座位,但涉事各方的法律代表的座位編配, 則會視乎作供證人的身分、已獲許可向證人提問的各方, 以及任何秘書處認為相關的其他因素而定。

FD06233 | 2025_港澳台_香港宏福苑大火_CC-originating-notice-of-application.pdf

分类:06_境外及港澳台调查报告 | 年份:2025 | 地域:香港 | 严重程度: | 场所: | 起火原因: | 来源格式:pdf

74 Version for A, R 1 to R20 and the public IN THE HIGH COURT OF THE CTEA / /2026 ONG KONG SPECIAL ADMINISTRATIVE REGION OMPETITION TRIBUNAL ENFORCEMENT ACTION Z 5 MAR 2026 NO. \ OF 2026 BETWEEN COMPETITION COMMISSION and CHEUNG KWING KUEN (5tH!mm) SMART GOAL CONSTRUCTION ENGINEERING LIMITED ( 11~IfiN0 P}) (IN LIQUIDATION) LERMOND DEVELOPMENT GROUP LIMITED (fljU~ N0P]) DREAM BUILDING CONSTRUCTION ENGINEERING LIMITED (J~lfIfi1=F~N0P]) LAU SEK CHEUNG (iLJ£) (trading as CHEUNG LEE CONSTRUCTION co crtflJ0 P})) NGAI LAM BUILDING CONSTRUCTION CO. LIMITED (~;tf Iff1=F0-P]) WANG Y AT CONSTRUCTION LIMITED (;JE~_ful-g:mifif[~~ 0P]) WAI YIP DEVELOPMENT CONSTRUCTION LIMITED (fl* '§§~1[0 P}) CHUN HUNG CONSTRUCTION & ENGINEERING LIMITED (~)J,iifi~~~0 P}) CHAN KIN KEUNG (~JIW!)$) CHOW SHUK HA (mJ>tJ§) LEE WAI HUNG (*flit) SIU WING HONG (Ji7J<.~) WONG MING KEUNG (wBJl~$) LAU WING SUM (ILJ7J<.~) NGAI SANG WONG (ft±.Bf:) LAI KAM CHUEN (~jffl~) 1 Applicant 1st Respondent 2nd Respondent 3rd Respondent 4th Respondent 5th Respondent 6th Respondent 7th Respondent 8th Respondent 9th Respondent 1 oth Respondent 11 th Respondent 12th Respondent 13th Respondent 14th Respondent 15th Respondent 16th Respondent 17th Respondent

75 CHAN KA YUK (~*B3s:) CHAN HEUNG FAT (~CTfoJ~i) LI WAI HUNG ({l!t) 2 18th Respondent 19th Respondent 20th Respondent

76 ORIGINATING NOTICE OF APPLICATION TABLE OF CONTENTS A. THE PARTIES ............................................................................................................................. 4 B. THE SUBSTANCE OF THE APPLICATION ......................................................................... 9 C. GROUNDS ON WHICH THE RELIEF IS SOUGHT ........................................................... 16 Cl. THE RELEVANT LEGAL FRAMEWORK ..................................................................................... 16 CJ (a) Primary liability: contravention of the First Conduct Rule ............................................... 16 Tendering Process .............. .............. ............................................................................................... 21 Price fixing ................ ...................................................................................................................... 22 Bid-rigging ...................................................................................................................................... 23 Exchange of information ................................................................................................................. 24 Market Allocation I Sharing .. .......................................................................................................... 25 CJ (b) Personal liability: involvement in a contravention ........ .................................................... 2 7 CJ (c) Disqualification orders ....................................................................................................... 27 CJ(d) Standard ofproof. .............................................................................................................. 29 C2. BUILDING MAINTENANCE PROJECTS IN HONG KONG ............................................................ 30 C3. THE TENDERS .......................................................................................................................... 31 C3(a) Tsui Lam Estate .................................................................................................................. 32 C3(b) Tak Shun Industrial Building ............................................................................................. 35 C3(c) Neptune Terrace ................................................................................................................. 36 C3(d) Yen Che Building ................................................................................................................ 38 C3(e) Kwai Fung House ............................................................................................................... 40 CJ(!) Victory Garden ..................... .. ..................................................... ....................................... 42 C3(g) Chung Sing Building ........................................................ .................................................. 44 C3(h) 31 Yiu Wa Street ................................................................................................................. 45 C3(i) Tai Ping Industrial Centre, Block I ........................................ .................................... ....... 48 C3(j) Wang Fuk Court .......................................................................... ....................................... 49 C3(k) Alhambra Building ................. ..................................................................................... ....... 53 C4. THE 2ND TO 9m RESPONDENTS' CONTRAVENTION OF THE FIRST CONDUCT RULE ................. 54 C4(a) Contravention of the First Conduct Rule .................................... ........... ............................ 54 C4(b) Subject Arrangement constitutes a Serious Anti-Competitive Conduct ............................. 60 CS. INVOLVEMENT OF THE 1 ST, 10TH TO 20TH (EXCEPT 19m) RESPONDENTS IN THE CONTRAVENTION; CASE AGAINST THE 19TH RESPONDENT .................................................................. 61 C5(a) Involvement of Cheung (RIIDBU) ...................................................................................... 61 C5(b) Involvement of .KK Chan (RJ0/DBU) ................................................................................. 62 C5(c) Involvement of Suki Chow (Rll/DBU) ............................................................................ ... 63 C5(d) Involvement of Hugo Lee (Rl2/DBU) .............................................................. .. ................ 64 C5(e) Involvement of Marvin Siu (RI 3/DBU) .............................................................................. 64 C5(f) Involvement of MK Wong (Rf 4/DBU) ............................... .......... ....................................... 65 C5(g) Involvement of WS Lau (RI 5/Cheung Lee) ................................... ..................................... 66 C5 (h) Involvement of SW Ngai (RI 6/Ngai Lam) .......................................................... ................ 67 C5(i) Involvement of KC Lai (RI 7 /Wang Yat) ............................................................................. 68 C5(J) Involvement of Yuki Chan (RI 8/Wai Yip) ........................................................................... 69 C5(k) HF Chan (R19/Wai Yip) ................................................. ........................ .............. .............. 70 C5(l) Involvement of WH Li (R20/Chun Hung) .................................... ....................................... 71 D. THE RELIEF SOUGHT ........................................................................................................... 71 3

77 1. This application is made under ss.92(1), 94(1), 96(1) and 101(1) of the Competition Ordinance (Cap. 619) ("Ordinance"). A. 2. THE PARTIES The Applicant is the Competition Commission ("Commission"), a body corporate established under s.129 of the Ordinance. The Commission's address is 19/F, South Island Place, 8 Wong Chuk Hang Road, Wong Chuk Hang, Hong Kong. 3. The 1st Respondent, Cheung Kwing Kuen ("Cheung (Rl/DBU)"), also known by his alias "Dai B" (:X B), is: (1) A shadow director I and/or a director (being a person involved in the management 2 ) of the 2nd Respondent, Smart Goal Construction Engineering Limited (in liquidation) ("Smart Goal (R2/DBU)"), since June 2022. (a) Cheung (Rl/DBU) financed the acquisition of (i) 50% shares in Smart Goal (R2/DBU) from Chow Kam Hon ("Chris Chow") and (ii) 50% shares in Smart Goal (R2/DBU) from Leung Chit Ho Boris by Ho Tsui Fan ("TF Ho") between June and August 2022. (i) TF Ho became the sole shareholder of Smart Goal (R2/DBU) since 29 August 2022. She was a director of Smart Goal (R2/DBU) between 21 July 2022 and 18 September 2025. She was also a signatory of Smart Goal (R2/DBU)'s tender documents. 1 Under s.2(1) of the Ordinance, "shadow director' (¥1fiif-$), "in relation to a company, means a person in accordance with whose directions or instructions all the directors or a majority of the directors of the company are accustomed to act, but a person is not to be regarded as a shadow director by reason only that all the directors or a majority of the directors act on advice given by that person in a professional capacity". 2 Under s.2(1) of the Ordinance, "director" Ci:$ ) "includes any person occupying the position of director or involved in the management of a company, by whatever name called, and includes a shadow director" . 4

78 (ii) TF Ho was at all material times Cheung (Rl/DBU)'s nominee and/or under Cheung's supervision and/or control in relation to the operations of Smart Goal. (iii) Chris Chow handed over his work in Smart Goal to Cheung since July 2022. (b) Cheung (Rl/DBU) exercised de facto control over Smart Goal (R2/DBU)' s operations, including (i) establishing the corporate structure of Smart Goal (R2/DBU) as well as directing and determining the roles and responsibilities of the key individuals involved; and (ii) deciding on the use and allocation of financial resources and on commercial strategy. Cheung exercised such de facto control since June 2022; by way of illustration, as pleaded below, Cheung was involved in Smart Goal's submission of bid in relation to the Tsui Lam Tender (defined below) in June 2022. (c) Cheung (Rl/DBU) represented to be, and was treated as, the ultimate owner of Smart Goal (R2/DBU). (2) A director and sole shareholder of the yct Respondent, Lermond Development Group Limited ("Lermond Development (R3/DBU)"), since 28 December 2020. (3) A director and sole shareholder of the 4th Respondent, Dream Building Construction Engineering Limited ("Dream Building Construction (R4/DBU)"), since 12 June 2020. 4. The 2nd Respondent, Smart Goal (R2/DBU): (I) Was a limited liability company incorporated in Hong Kong on 25 September 2000, having a registered office address at "Flat/ Rm A-D" of "26/F, Block B, Billion Centre, 1 Wang Kwong Road, Kowloon Bay, Kowloon, Hong Kong" ("26/F Billion Centre"). 5

79 (2) Was at all material times a Registered General Building Contractor ("RGBC") registered with the Buildings Department ("BD"), and qualified to bid for contractor tenders generally in building maintenance projects in Hong Kong. (3) Was wound up by the Court pursuant to a winding-up order granted on 27 August 2025. On 16 January 2026, Mr Cheung Hok Hin, Alan and Mr Suen Fuk Yuen, Bernie, both of Wing United CPA Limited, were appointed as the Joint and Several Liquidators of Smart Goal (R2/DBU) as a result. Pursuant to the Order of Master J Wong dated 18 March 2026, the Commission was granted leave to commence and proceed with the present enforcement action against Smart Goal (R2/DBU). 5. At all material times, the yct Respondent (Lermond Development (R3/DBU)) was, and still is, a limited liability company incorporated in Hong Kong on 13 January

  1. Since 6 March 2020, its registered office address has been at "Unit A" of

26/F Billion Centre. At all material times, it was, and still is, a building sub- contractor, in particular but not exclusively of Smart Goal (R2/DBU), but has no RGBC status. 6. At all material times, the 4th Respondent (Dream Building Construction (R4/DBU)) was, and still is, a limited liability company incorporated in Hong Kong on 9 December 2011. Since 29 April 2021, its registered office address has been at "Unit D" of 26/F Billion Centre. At all material times, it was, and still is, a building sub-contractor, in particular but not exclusively of Smart Goal (R2/DBU), but has no RGBC status. 7. At all material times, the 5th Respondent ("SC Lau") was, and still is, a sole proprietorship in Hong Kong trading as Cheung Lee Construction Co ("Cheung Lee (RS)"), having a business registration address at Flat/Room H, I 6/F, Wing Hong Factory Buil~ing, 18-26 Kwai Fung Crescent, Kwai Chung, New Territories, Hong Kong. At all material times, it was, and still is, an RGBC 6

80 registered with the BD, and qualified to bid for contractor tenders generally in building maintenance projects in Hong Kong. 8. At all material times, the 6th Respondent ("Ngai Lam (R6)") was, and still is, a limited liability company incorporated in Hong Kong on 27 August 2008. Since 29 April 2025, its registered office address has been at Room 816, 8/F ., Peninsula Centre, 67 Mody Road, Tsim Sha Tsui, Hong Kong. It was, and still is, at all material times, an RGBC registered with the BD, and qualified to bid for contractor tenders generally in building maintenance projects in Hong Kong. 9. At all material times, the 7th Respondent ("Wang Yat (R7)") was, and still is, a limited liability company incorporated in Hong Kong on 30 May 2008. Since 1 January 2026, its registered office address has been at Unit D, 3/F, Freder Centre, 62-68 Sung Wong Toi Road, To Kwa Wan, Hong Kong. It was, and still is, at all material times, an RGBC registered with the BD, and qualified to bid for contractor tenders generally in building maintenance projects in Hong Kong. 10. At all material times, the 8th Respondent ("Wai Yip (RS)") was, and still is, a limited liability company incorporated in Hong Kong on 20 July 2005. Since 3 December 2018, its registered office address has been at Room 312, 3/F, Brill Plaza, 82-84 To Kwa Wan Road, To Kwa Wan, Kowloon, Hong Kong. It was, and still is, at all material times, an RGBC registered with the BD, and qualified to bid for contractor tenders generally in building maintenance projects in Hong Kong. 11 . At all material times, the 9th Respondent ("Chun Hung (R9)") was, and still is, a limited liability company incorporated in Hong Kong on 26 October 2010. Since 13 March 2025, its registered office address has been at Room 06, 10/F, International Plaza, 20 Sheung Yuet Road, Kowloon Bay, Kowloon, Hong Kong. It was, and still is, at all material times, an RGBC registered with the BD, and qualified to bid for contractor tenders generally in building maintenance projects in Hong Kong. 7

81 12. The 10th Respondent ("KK Chan (RlO/DBU)"), also known by his aliases "Ah Keung" (r□Bi), "Ah Dee", and "Bar Tsz Keung" G&:rsi), was, and still is, a senior project manager of Dream Building Architects & Surveyors Limited ("Dream Building Architects"). Dream Building Architects was, and still is, at all material times, a limited company incorporated in Hong Kong, the registered office address of which is at "Unit A" of 26/F Billion Centre. KK Chan (Rl0/DBU) acted for and on behalf of, and/or provided services to, the Dream Building Undertaking ( defined below) and/or under the "Dream Building" brand. 13. The 11 th Respondent ("Suki Chow (Rll/DBU)") was an employee of and/or worked for Cheung (Rl/DBU) between around 2023 and April 2024. She acted for and on behalf of, and/or provided services to, the Dream Building Undertaking (defined below) and/or under the "Dream Building" brand. 14. The 12th Respondent ("Hugo Lee (Rl2/DBU)") was an employee of and/or worked for Cheung (Rl/DBU) between 2020 and 2023. He acted for and on behalf of, and/or provided services to, the Dream Building Undertaking (defined below) and/or under the "Dream Building" brand. 15. The 13th Respondent ("Marvin Siu (R13/DBU)") was an employee of and/or worked for Cheung (Rl/DBU). He acted for and on behalf of, and/or provided services to, the Dream Building Undertaking (defined below) and/or under the "Dream Building" brand. 16. The 14th Respondent ("MK Wong (Rl4/DBU)") founded Dynamics Architect Limited (:=EtJJjJ}t~@ffi1'f~li0'oJ, "Dynamics Architect") on 24 August 2016. He was at all material times and is a director and 50% shareholder of Dynamics Architect. He acted for and on behalf of, and/or provided services to, the Dream Building Undertaking (defined below) and/or under the "Dream Building" brand. 17. The 15th Respondent ("WS Lau (Rl5/Cheung Lee)") was, and still is, at all material times, the project manager of Cheung Lee (R5). He is the son of SC Lau, the sole proprietor trading as Cheung Lee (R5). 8

82 18. The 16th Respondent ("SW Ngai (Rl6/Ngai Lam)") was at all material times and is (1) a director ofNgai Lam (R6); and (2) the sole shareholder ofNgai Lam (R6) until 25 October 2024 (when he became a 50% shareholder), and the authorized signatory ofNgai Lam (R6) as an RGBC. 19. The 17th Respondent ("KC Lai (Rl 7/Wang Yat)") was, and still is, at all material times, the general manager (and hence additionally a "director")3 of Wang Yat (R7). His ex-wife, Ms Zhang Yu, at all material times since December 2019 held shares in Wang Yat (R7) on behalf of KC Lai (RI 7/Wang Yat). 20. The 18th Respondent ("Yuki Chan (R18/Wai Yip)") was the administrative manager responsible for the daily business and accounting matters ( and hence additionally a "director")4 of Wai Yip (R8) between May 2014 and November

  1. She is also a daughter of HF Chan (R19/Wai Yip).

The 19th Respondent ("HF Chan (R19/Wai Yip)") was, and still is, at all material times, a director of Wai Yip (R8). He is the father ofYuki Chan (Rl8/Wai Yip). 22. The 20th Respondent ("WH Li (R20/Chun Hung)"), also known by his alias "Satay" ()y ai), was, and still is, at all material times, the sole director and sole shareholder of Chun Hung (R9). B. THE SUBSTANCE OF THE APPLICATION 23. The present application concerns the following 11 tenders ("Tenders"; each a "Tender") for the supply of construction services for the maintenance and repair of the common parts of residential and industrial buildings in Hong Kong ("Services"). 3 Per the definition of "director" under s.2(1) of the Ordinance. 4 Per the definition of"director" under s.2(1) of the Ordinance. 9

83 (1) Tsui Lam Estate (11 Tsui Lam Road, Tseung Kwan 0, New Territories) ("Tsui Lam Tender") (Tender closing date: 24 June 2022); (2) Tak Shun Industrial Building (154 Wai Yip Street, Kwun Tong, Kowloon) ("Tak Shun Tender") (Tender closing date: 30 August 2022); (3) Neptune Terrace (11-15 Tai Man Street, Chai Wan, Hong Kong) ("Neptune Terrace Tender") (Tender closing date: 12 October 2022); (4) Yen Che Building (27-31 Kowloon City Road, To Kwa Wan, Kowloon) ("Yen Che Tender") (Tender closing date: 16 December 2022); (5) Kwai Fung House 5 (No. 5-11, Ping Lai Path, Kwai Chung, New Territories) ("Kwai Fung Tender") (Tender closing date: 29 December 2022); (6) Victory Garden6 (153 Tai Loong Street, Kwai Chung, New Territories) ("Victory Garden Tender") (Tender closing date: 14 February 2023); (7) Chung Sing Building (57-59 Chung Wui Street and 69-71 Kok Cheung Street, Tai Kok Tsui, Kowloon) ("Chung Sing Tender") (Tender closing date: 2 May 2023); (8) 31 Yiu Wa Street (Causeway Bay, Hong Kong) ("Yiu Wa Tender") (Tender closing date: 26 May 2023); (9) Tai Ping Industrial Centre, Block 17 (57 Ting Kok Road, Tai Po, New Territories) ("Tai Ping Tender") (Tender closing date: 14 April 2023); 5 Smart Goal (R2/DBU) won this Tender. 6 Smart Goal (R2/DBU) won this Tender. 7 Smart Goal (R2/DBU) won this Tender. 10

84 (10) Wang Fuk Court (3821 Tai Po Road (Yuen Chau Tsai), Tai Po, New Territories) ("Wang Fuk Tender") (Tender closing date: 4 July 2023); and (11) Alhambra Building (383-389 Nathan Road, Yau Ma Tei, Kowloon) ("Alhambra Tender") (Tender closing date: 27 September 2023). 24. Smart Goal (R2/DBU), Cheung Lee (R5), Ngai Lam (R6), Wang Yat (R7), Wai Yip (R8) and Chun Hung (R9) were at all material times RGBCs and competitors in providing the Services in Hong Kong. (1) Smart Goal (R2/DBU) submitted bids to each of the Tenders. (2) Cheung Lee (R5), Ngai Lam (R6), Wang Yat (R7), Wai Yip (R8) and Chun Hung (R9) submitted bids to one or more of the Tenders. 8 25. As set out at paragraph 145 below, Smart Goal (R2/DBU), Lermond Development (R3/DBU) and Dream Building Construction (R4/DBU) formed a single economic unit given the organizational and/or economic and/or legal links that support common control ("Dream Building Undertaking" or "DBU"). Cheung (Rl/DBU) was at all material times the de facto controller of the Dream Building Undertaking. 26. Through Cheung (Rl/DBU) and other associates, 9 the Dream Building Undertaking prepared and/or distributed individual pricing instructions (generally known or understood as "homework" I "JjJi:Jt') to selected building contractors ("Instructed Bidders") 10 for each of the Tenders. Such "homework" contained bidding prices or a part thereof for building maintenance projects under the 8 For the avoidance of doubt, the Commission reserves all rights in respect of other tenders to which Smart Goal (R2/DBU), Cheung Lee (RS), Ngai Lam (R6), Wang Yat (R7), Wai Yip (R8), and/or Chun Hung (R9) submitted bids. This is not intended to be an exhaustive list of tenders whereby the Commission considers their conduct objectionable. 9 Including KK Chan (RIO/DBU), Suki Chow (Rl 1/DBU), Hugo Lee (R12/DBU), Marvin Siu (Rl3/DBU) and MK Wong (R14/DBU). 10 Namely one or more of Cheung Lee (RS), Ngai Lam (R6), Wang Yat (R7), Wai Yip (R8) and Chun Hung (R9), as the case may be, for specific Tenders. 11

85 Tenders. In respect of each Tender, there is an agreement11 or concerted practice ("Subject Arrangement") between the Dream Building Undertaking and each of the Instructed Bidders (as the case may be for each Tender) that involved: (1) The Instructed Bidder(s) pricing its/their bids for one or more of the Tenders in accordance with or by reference to the "homework" distributed to it/them, whether in part or in full. (2) Further or alternatively, the Instructed Bidder(s) being requested to submit bids for Tenders which, but for an agreement or understanding between the relevant Instructed Bidder(s) and the Dream Building Undertaking, the relevant Instructed Bidder(s) would not have bid for. 27. In competition law terms, the Subject Arrangement involved: (I) Fixing the price for the supply of Services by the Instructed Bidders (being the bid amount); (2) Bid-rigging in that there was "a submission ... of bids or tenders that are arrived at by an agreement- (i) that is made between or among 2 or more undertakings [i.e. between DBU and each of the Instructed Bidders, as the case may be]; and (ii) that is not ,nade known to the person calling for or requesting bids or tenders at or before the time when a bid or tender is submitted or withdrawn by a party to the agreement or by an entity controlled by any one or more of the parties to the agreement"12 ; (3) The exchange of competitively sensitive information in respect of the bidding price for each of the Tenders; and/or 11 As defined in s.2(1) of the Ordinance, namely "any agreement, arrangement, understanding, promise or undertaking, whether express or implied, written or oral, and whether or not enforceable or intended to be enforceable by legal proceedings". 12 As defined in s.2(2)(b) of the Ordinance. 12

86 (4) Market allocation/sharing in that the Tenders (and consequently (a) the tendering consumers and (b) the eventual contracts for the supply of Services with those consumers) are being allocated, or intended to be allocated, to Smart Goal (R2) and/or an Instructed Bidder. In other words, by reason of the Subject Arrangement, Smart Goal (R2) and/or an Instructed Bidder ( as the case may be) is designated a higher chance to be selected in the tendering exercise and awarded the eventual contract in respect of the Tenders. 28. With the Subject Arrangement in place, Smart Goal (R2/DBU) won 3 of the 11 Tenders - the Kwai Fung Tender, the Victory Garden Tender and the Tai Ping Tender. 29. Without prejudice to the specific averments herein: (1) The objectionable conduct constituting the Contravention(s) (defined below) was widespread and prevalent in the construction industry, with the 11 Tenders geographically spanning Hong Kong Island, Kowloon and New Territories; (2) The objectionable conduct was systematic in that across all Tenders, there was a clear pattern ( or modus operandi) of how competition was prevented, restricted and/or distorted. It was highly sophisticated and organized, and involved the deployment of codes such as "homework" (JJJiJ), "main character" (-=t.~), "helper" (.-f-), and "blow the whistle" (□.Xii). (3) Cheung (Rl/DBU) and/or the DBU operated as or through a syndicate, and were involved in at least each of the 11 Tenders over the course of 2 years. They were the mastermind of the cartel, and were very active in the construction industry. ( 4) As pleaded further below, Cheung (Rl/DBU) and/or the DBU devised and deployed this systematic scheme with an objective to secure a significant 13

87 market share in the industry. In addressing the DBU, Cheung (Rl/DBU) stated that he was confident in challenging the 25% market share threshold, and that in the past, the contract sums were large but the volume was low, but in the future, their volume will be multiple ten-folds of that today. ("ft fJ!tt, J[:s"J~{§ 1Li\, :r}t!f'.!x 25%rpt~{~1f$, 11mJft1135i!'.HiI!tk :l:Y, ** flt{r5B"J:I:, @tt9:K~ ~+{~, {§ft"). (5) The Subject Arrangement involved the making of repeated false representations in the form ofNon-collusive Tendering Certificates ("NCTCs"), which (a) were plainly designed to advance public interest in preventing competition contraventions and protect the tendering party, and (b) Smart Goal (R2/DBU) and a number of the Instructed Bidders signed in respect of a number of the Tenders. 30. As detailed below, the Commission seeks relief under the Ordinance as against Smart Goal (R2/DBU), Lermond Development (R3/DBU), Dream Building Construction (R4/DBU), Cheung Lee (R5), Ngai Lam (R6), Wang Yat (R7), Wai Yip (R8) and Chun Hung (R9) on the basis that, in respect of each Tender, (a) the DBU and (b) each of the 5th to 9th Respondents (as the case may be for each Tender) have contravened the First Conduct Rule ("FCR") under s.6 of the Ordinance by making and/or giving effect to an agreement, and/or engaging in a concerted practice, the object of which was to prevent, restrict or distort competition in Hong Kong: (1) The DBU and Cheung Lee (R5) made and/or gave effect to and/or engaged in the Subject Arrangement in respect of (i) Tsui Lam Tender; (ii) Tak Shun Tender; (iii) Neptune Terrace Tender; (iv) Yen Che Tender; (v) Kwai Fung Tender; (vi) Victory Garden Tender; (vii) Chung Sing Tender; (viii) Yiu Wa Tender; (ix) Tai Ping Tender; (x) Wang Fuk Tender; an~ (xi) Alhambra Tender, each being a contravention of the FCR. (2) The DBU and Ngai Lam (R6) made and/or gave effect to and/or engaged in the Subject Arrangement in respect of (i) Tsui Lam Tender; (ii) Neptune 14

88 Terrace Tender; (iii) Kwai Fung Tender; (iv) Victory Garden Tender; (v) Chung Sing Tender; and (vi) Wang Fuk Tender, each being a contravention oftheFCR. (3) The DBU and Wang Yat (R7) made and/or gave effect to and/or engaged in the Subject Arrangement in respect of (i) Tsui Lam Tender; (ii) Neptune Terrace Tender; (iii) Victory Garden Tender; and (iv) Wang Fuk Tender, each being a contravention of the FCR. (4) The DBU and Wai Yip (R8) made and/or gave effect to and/or engaged in the Subject Arrangement in respect of the Tsui Lam Tender, being a contravention of the FCR. (5) The DBU and Chun Hung (R9) made and/or gave effect to and/or engaged in the Subject Arrangement in respect of the Neptune Terrace Tender, being a contravention of the FCR. ( each a "Contravention") 31. The Commission also seeks relief under the Ordinance as against Cheung (Rl/DBU), KK Chan(Rl0/DBU), Suki Chow (Rl 1/DBU), Hugo Lee (Rl2/DBU), Marvin Siu (Rl3/DBU), MK Wong (Rl4/DBU), WS Lau (R15/Cheung Lee), SW Ngai (R16/Ngai Lam), KC Lai (RI 7/Wang Yat), Yuki Chan (R18/Wai Yip) and WH Li (R20/Chun Hung) for their respective involvement in the respective Contravention(s) by having been directly or indirectly, knowingly concerned in or a party to the Contravention(s) pursuant to s.91(d) of the Ordinance and/or aiding, abetting, counselling or procuring any other person in respect of the Contravention(s) pursuant to s.9l(b) of the Ordinance. 32. In the event the Competition Tribunal ("Tribunal") determines that Wai Yip (R8) has contravened a competition rule, the Commission further seeks relief under the Ordinance against HF Chan (R19/Wai Yip) for a disqualification order pursuant to s.101 of the Ordinance as (1) he is a director of a company that has contravened 15

89 a competition rule, 13 and (2) his conduct as a director makes him unfit to be concerned in the management of a company. 14 3 3. The relief sought by the Commission is set out in section D below. C. GROUNDS ON WHICH THE RELIEF IS SOUGHT Cl. The Relevant Legal Framework Cl(a) Primary liability: contravention of the First Conduct Rule 34. The first conduct rule, i.e., the "FCR", is set out at s.6 of the Ordinance and provides that: "(1) An undertaking must not - (a) make or give effect to an agreement; (b) engage in a concerted practice; or (c) as a member of an association of undertakings, make or give effect to a decision of the association, if the object or effect of the agreement, concerted practice or decision is to prevent, restrict or distort competition in Hong Kong. " 3 5. Since the FCR is modelled on Article 101 ( 1) of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union, the Tribunal has held that EU case law is of "obvious value" in relation to the interpretation and application of the FCR. 15 13 See requirement ins. l 02(a) of the Ordinance. 14 See requirement in s.102(b) and s.103 of the Ordinance. 15 Competition Commission v Nutanix Hong Kong Limited and others ("Nutanix") [2019] HKCT 2 at §24. 16

90 Undertaking 36. Pursuant to s.2(1) of the Ordinance, an undertaking means "any entity, regardless of its legal status or the way in which it is financed, engaged in economic activity, and includes a natural person engaged in economic activity." 3 7. The Court of Appeal has emphasised that, "Even though the determination of pecuniary penalties is a 'localised affair', it must be recognised that the concept of an undertaking lies at the heart of the competition law in Hong Kong and this is derived from EU jurisprudence." 16 The concept of an undertaking "must be understood as designating an economic unit even if in law that economic unit consists of several persons, natural or legal .. . ". 17 3 8. The court will have regard to the evidence on ( 1) the economic, organisational and legal links that connect the two legal entities; and (2) the existence of a specific link between the economic activity of the entities in question and the subject matter of the infringement. 18 39. Similarly, the acts of an agent may be attributed to its principal, and those of a commercial representative to the firm it represents. Various factors may be relevant to the question and different factors may attract different weight in different situations. One approach is to ask whether or not there is unity of conduct of the relevant entities on the market. Whether third parties perceive the principal and agent as forming a single economic entity is a relevant factor. 19 40. The acts of an employee may also be imputed to an employer undertaking for the purposes of the FCR. In order to determine whether an employee's actions are attributable to an employer undertaking, "[t}here must be a sufficient connection between the acts of the employee in question and the undertaking so that the 16 Competition Commission v W Hing Construction Company Limited and others(" W. Hing') [2022] HKCA 786, [2022] 5 HKC 121 at §41. 11 W Hing [2019] HKCT 3 §302. 18 C-882/19 Suma! SL v Mercedes Benz Trucks Espana SL [2022] 5 CMLR 1 at §§51-52. 19 W Hing [2019] HKCT 3 §§304-307. 17

91 former can properly be regarded as part of the latter in the relevant context. Where the employer has put the employee in his position to do the kind of acts in question, it will often be fair to conclude that the employer has engaged in economic activity through the employee and is answerable for the manner in which the employee has conducted himself in that appointment." 20 41. Where an undertaking contravenes a competition rule, it is for the undertaking to answer for the infringement. Pecuniary penalties, while ultimately payable by legal or natural persons, are imposed and determined with reference to economic activities and conduct of undertakings. Persons constituting the undertaking are jointly and severally liable for the infringement of the competition rule, and in turn the pecuniary penalty which is imposed on the undertaking. 21 42. It has been held under EU jurisprudence that "if the undertakings responsible for damage caused by infringement of the EU competition rules could escape liability by simply changing their identity through restructurings, sales or other legal or organisational changes, the objective pursued by that system and the effectiveness of those rules would be jeopardised". 22 Collusion 43. The forms of collusive conduct prohibited under the FCR - i.e., the concepts of "agreement" and "concerted practice" - are framed broadly and "are intended ... to catch forms of collusion having the same nature and are only distinguishable from each other by their intensity and the forms in which they manifest themselves. "23 44. The term "agreement" is defined under s.2(1) of the Ordinance as including "any agreement, arrangement, understanding, promise or undertaking, whether express or implied, written or oral, and whether or not enforceable or intended to 20 Nutanix [2019] HKCT 2 at §§368-372, and §372 in particular. 21 Competition Commission v Fungs E&M Engineering Co Ltd and others [2022] 3 HKLRD 84 at §§33, 41. 22 C- 724/17 Vantaan kaupunki v Skanska Industrial Solutions Oy and others, at §46. 23 Nutanix [2019] HKCT 2 at §34. 18

92 be enforceable by legal proceedings". The Tribunal has explained that "the concept of agreement centres around the existence of a concurrence of wills between at least two parties, the form in which it is manifested being unimportant so long as it constitutes the faithful expression of the parties ' intention. It is sufficient that the undertakings in question should have expressed their common intention to conduct themselves on the market in a specific way." 24 45. A "concerted practice" is not defined in the Ordinance but is a concept borrowed from EU jurisprudence and has been held to constitute an even looser but still prohibited form of collusion, i.e., "a form of coordination between undertakings by which, without it having been taken to the stage where an agreement properly so-called has been concluded, practical cooperation between them is knowingly substituted for the risks of competition." 25 46. These broad definitions intend to capture "all collusion between undertakings, whatever the form it takes", since "the distinction [between "agreement" and concerted practice"} is made solely with the intention of catching such various forms of collusion". 26 For example, any direct or indirect contact between economic operators of such a nature as to disclose to a competitor the course of conduct which they themselves have decided to adopt or contemplate adopting on the market, where the object or effect of such contact is to create conditions of competition which do not correspond to the normal conditions of the market in question, constitutes a concerted practice. It is not therefore necessary to show that the competitor in question has formally undertaken to adopt a particular course of conduct. It is sufficient for only one participant to reveal its future intentions or other competitive information, since the recipient cannot normally fail to take that information into account when formulating its policy on the market. 27 24 Nutanix [2019] HKCT 2 at §26 25 Nutanix [2019] HKCT 2 at §28 26 Nutanix [2019] HKCT 2 at §34(1), (4). 27 Nutanix [2019] HKCT 2 at §§31-33 19

93 Anti-competitive object 47. It is well established that an anti-competitive object and an anti-competitive effect are alternative conditions in determining whether certain conduct is prohibited by the FCR. 28 Certain types of coordination between undertakings reveal a sufficient degree of harm to competition, by their very nature, for the examination of their effects to be considered unnecessary. 29 Accordingly, where it is established that an agreement has the "object" of preventing, distorting or restricting competition, it can be concluded there is an infringement of the FCR without having to consider the actual effects of the agreement on competition. 30 48. In order to determine whether an agreement or concerted practice constitutes a restriction by object, regard must be had to the content of its provisions, its objectives and the economic and legal context of which it forms part. 31 However, this does not require a full examination of economic effects, which would defeat the purpose of proscribing restriction of competition by object in the first place. 32 The matter is assessed objectively: although the parties' subjective intention is not a necessary factor, there is nothing prohibiting that factor from being taken into account. 33 49. An agreement may be found to have an anti-competitive object even if it also pursues legitimate aims/objects, and it is sufficient if one of its objects is to prevent, restrict or distort competition. 34 So too, the agreement need not have been implemented in order for it to have an anticompetitive object. It is sufficient that the agreement has the potential (as against actual) negative impact on competition. 35 28 Nutanix [2019] HKCT 2 at §35. 29 Nutanix [2019] HKCT 2 at §384(1)-(2). 30 Nutanix [2019] HKCT 2 at §35. 31 Nutanix [2019] HKCT 2 at §§37-38, 384(3); W Hing [2019] HKCT 3 at §105. 32 W Hing [2019] HKCT 3 at §108. 33 Nutanix [2019] HKCT 2 at §384(4). 34 Ordinance s.7(1); Nutanix [2019] HKCT 2 at §387; W. Hing [2019] HKCT 3 at §§115-121. 35 Nutanix [2019] HKCT 2 at §§389-390. 20

94 50. An undertaking may be taken to have made or given effect to an agreement that has as its object the prevention, restriction or distortion of competition even if that object can be ascertained only by inference. 36 51. The Tribunal has previously found price-fixing, 37 customer allocation/market sharing, 38 bid-rigging 39 and the sharing of details of quotations (including pricing information) 40 as having the object of preventing, restricting or distorting competition. Tendering Process 52. The essential feature of a tendering process conducted by a customer is the expectation on the part of the customer that it will receive, as a response to its tender, a number of independently articulated bids formulated by contractors wholly independent of each other. A tendering process is designed to produce competition in a very structured way. The importance of the independent preparation of bids is sometimes recognised in tender documentation by imposing a requirement on the tenderers to certify that they have not had any contact with each other in the preparation of their bids. This is important from the standpoint of the customer, since the tendering process is designed to identify the contractor that is prepared to make the most cost-effective bid. The competitive tendering process may be interfered with if the tenders submitted are not the result of individual economic calculation but of knowledge of the tenders by other participants or concertation between participants. Such behaviour by undertakings leads to conditions of competition which do not correspond to the normal conditions of the market.41 36 Ordinances. 7(2). 31 W Hing [2019] HKCT 3 at §§142-146. 38 W Hing [2019] HKCT 3 at §§135-136. 39 Nutanix [2019] HKCT 2 at §§437-439. 4° Competition Commission v Quanlr Ltd and Cheung Man Kit [2020] HKCT 10 at §8. 41 Nutanix [2019] HKCT 2 at §393 (citing Apex Asphalt and Paving Co Ltd v Office of Fair Trading [2005] CAT 4 at §§208-209) 21

95 Price fixing 53. Agreements between competitors with the aim of fixing, maintaining, increasing or otherwise controlling prices (generally termed price fixing agreements) are examples of agreements with the object of harming competition.42 54. In §6.11 of the FCR Guideline, it is stated that" ... price fixing may take a number of forms. It may, for example, involve directly agreeing upon a specified price, the amount or percentage by which prices are to be increased or a price range. Price in this context includes any element of price and, in particular, includes any discount, rebate, allowance, price concession or other advantage in relation to the supply of products. An agreement with respect to an element of price amounts to price fixing". 55. It has been held that agreements on cover quotes have as their object the restriction of competition, and they are amongst the most serious restrictions of competition as they can be classified as "agreements on prices and customer-sharing".43 56. Further, price fixing can be achieved by indirect means. This includes where, for example, undertakings agree not to quote a price without consulting competitors, or not to charge less than any other price in the market. Similarly, the exchange of information on future price intentions may be assessed as price fixing. 44 57. In addition to being regarded as being anti-competitive by object, price-fixing also falls within the definition of "serious anti-competitive conduct" in s.2 of the Ordinance ("SAC"). 42 For example, in W. Hing (supra), an agreement between decoration contractors to adopt the same "package prices" for standardized renovation packages in their respective promotion flyers was held as having the object of harming competition. 43 C-440/11 P Commission v Stichting Administratiekantoor Portielje EU:C:2013:514 at §§ 10, 95, 111. 44 FCR Guideline, §6.12. 22

96 Bid-rigging 58. Bid-rigging is defined in s.2(2)(b) of the Ordinance to mean, inter alia, "(b) a submission, in response to a call or request for bids or tenders, of bids or tenders that are arrived at by an agreement - (i) that is made between or among 2 or more undertakings; and (ii) that is not made known to the person calling for or requesting bids or tenders at or before the time when a bid or tender is submitted or withdrawn by a party to the agreement or by an entity controlled by any one or more of the parties to the agreement". 59. There are four basic elements to the statutory definition in (b): (1) there is an agreement; (2) the agreement must be made between two or more undertakings; (3) there is a submission of bids or tenders that are arrived at by the agreement; and ( 4) the agreement is not made known to the person calling for or requesting the bids or tenders at or before the time when a bid or tender is submitted. 45 60. In particular, the statutory definition requires a submission (in response to a call or request) of bids or tenders that are arrived at by the agreement. With respect to the requirement that the bids must be "arrived at" by the agreement, "the outcome of the impermissible agreement or arrangement must lead to the bid and not simply relate to steps in the preparation of the bid. "46 61. That statutory definition has relevance only in the context of the definition of "serious anti-competitive conduct" .47 62. The notion of bid-rigging that contravenes the FCR is broader than (but includes) that statutory definition. It may take a number of forms, including undertakings agreeing to bid suppression, bid rotation, and cover bidding and/or take other action that reduce the competitive tension in the bidding process, such as by 45 Nutanix [2019] HKCT 2 §492. 46 Nutanix [2019] HKCT 2 §506. 47 See s.2(2) of the Ordinance and Nutanix [2019] HKCT 2 at §450 23

97 agreeing mm1mum bidding prices or agreeing that the winning bidder will reimburse other bidders' bid costs. 48 Exchange of information 63. An agreement or concerted practice with the object of harming competition may involve an exchange of competitively sensitive information. 49 In this context, "competitively sensitive information" includes information relating to price, elements of price or price strategies, customers, production costs, quantities, turnover, sales, capacity, product quality, marketing plans, risks, investments, technologies and innovations. Information relating to price and quantities is generally considered to be the most competitively sensitive. 50 64. An exchange of information which is capable of removing uncertainty between participants as regards the timing, extent and details of the modifications to be adopted by the undertakings concerned in their conduct on the market must be regarded as pursuing an anti-competitive object. 51 If competitors share information in private on their future individual intentions or plans with respect to price, such exchange has the object of harming competition.52 65. A causal connection between the concerted practice and the market conduct of the undertakings concerned may be presumed or inferred, even if the concerted action is the result of a single meeting. 53 Subject to proof to the contrary, the presumption or inference is that undertakings taking part in the concerted action and remaining 48 FCR Guideline §§6.27-6.28. 49 FCR Guideline, §2.28-2.30. 5° FCR Guideline, §6.39. 51 Case C-286/13 P, Dole Food Company Inc, & Dole Fresh Fruit Europe vEuropean Commission [2015) 4 CMLR 16 at§§ 122, 127. 52 FCR Guideline at §6.40; Joined cases T-202/98, T-204/98, and T-207/98 Tate & Lyle [2001] ECR II-2035, §§58 and 60; Rhone Poulenc v European Commission, EU:T: 1991:56, §§122 - 124. 53 Case C-8/08 T-Mobile Netherlands BV, KPN Mobile NV. Orange Nederland NV and Vodafone Libertel NV v Raad van bestuur van de Nederlandse Mededingingsautoriteit ECLI:EU:C:2009:343 at §53 and 62. 24

98 active on the market take account of the information exchanged with their competitors for the purposes of determining their conduct on that market. 54 66. The FCR Guideline provides at §§2.28 to 2.30: (1) The Commission will likely conclude that there exists a concerted practice with the object of harming competition where competitively sensitive information such as an undertaking's planned prices or planned pricing strategy is exchanged between competitors in circumstances where: (a) the information is given with the expectation or intention that the recipient will act on the information when determining its conduct in the market; and (b) the recipient does act or intends to act on the information. (2) Without a legitimate business reason for an information exchange of this kind, the Commission will likely infer from the information exchange that the party providing the relevant information had the requisite expectation or intention to influence a competitor's conduct in the market. (3) Similarly, absent a legitimate business reason for taking receipt of the information exchanged or other evidence showing that the recipient did not act or intend to act on the information when determining its conduct in the market, the Commission will likely infer that the recipient undertaking acted on or intended to act on the information exchanged. Market Allocation / Sharing 67. At §6.17 of the FCR Guideline, it is stated that: "Market sharing agreements are agreements between competitors that seek to allocate sales, territories, customers or markets for the production or supply of particular products. Market sharing entails competing undertakings agreeing to divide up a market so that the 54 Case C-199/92 P, Hiils AG v Commission [1999] ECR I-4287 at §162. 25

99 undertakings are 'sheltered' from competition in their allotted portion of the market." 68. Market allocation/ sharing agreements are paradigmatic cases and clearly prime examples of conduct that fall within the category of infringement by object and are regarded by their very nature as being harmful to the proper functioning of normal competition. 55 69. Market sharing arrangements eliminate or reduce competition in respect of the aspect of the market being shared. It is a particularly pernicious form of anti-competitive conduct: it removes or reduces choice for customers and insulates the suppliers from the dynamic effects of rivalry between themselves. The serious nature of the distortion of competition by a market allocation arrangement has been marked in the Ordinance by classifying such conduct ( amongst others) as "serious anti-competitive conduct". 56 Serious anti-competitive conduct 70. Under s.2(1) of the Ordinance, SAC means "any conduct that consists of any of the following or any combination of the following - (a) fixing, maintaining, increasing or controlling the price for the supply of goods or services; (b) allocating sales, territories, customers or markets for the production or supply of goods or services; ... (d) bid-rigging". 57 71. Whether conduct constitutes SAC is a separate consideration from whether it contravenes the FCR or has the object or effect of harming competition. 58 55 W. Hing [2019] HKCT 3 at §§110-111, 135 56 W Hing [2019] HKCT 3 at §§124-125 57 Ordinance s.2(1) (definitions). 58 Nutanix [2019] HKCT 2 at ~448. 26

100 Cl(b) Personal liability: involvement in a contravention 72. The Commission is empowered to apply for a pecuniary penalty to be imposed on any person it has reasonable cause to believe: (1) has contravened a competition rule (including the FCR); or (2) has been involved in a contravention of a competition rule. 59 If the Tribunal is satisfied that the person has so contravened or been involved in such a contravention, it may also make any order it considers appropriate (including all or any of the orders specified in Schedule 3 to the Ordinance). 60 73. S.91 of the Ordinance provides that a person being "involved" in a contravention of a competition rule - a definition which includes the FCR - means a person who: (a) attempts to contravene the rule; (b) aids, abets, counsels or procures any other person to contravene the rule; ( c) induces or attempts to induce any other person, whether by threats or promises or otherwise, to contravene the rule; (d) is in any way, directly or indirectly, knowingly concerned in or a party to the contravention of the rule; or ( e) conspires with any other person to contravene the rule. 74. This form of accessory liability is dependent on establishing primary liability, i.e., a contravention of s. 6 of the Ordinance. 61 Cl(c) Disqualification orders 75. On application by the Commission, the Tribunal may make a disqualification order against a person, but only if both: (1) the Tribunal has determined that a company of which the person is a director has contravened a competition rule (including the 59 Ordinance s.92(l)(a)-(b). 60 Ordinance s.94(1). 61 Nutanix [2019] HKCT 2 at ~352. 27

101 FCR); and (2) the Tribunal considers that the person's conduct makes that person unfit to be concerned in the management of a company. 62 76. Under s.2(1) of the Ordinance, "director" "includes any person occupying the position of director or involved in the management of a company, by whatever name called, and includes a shadow director". 77. A disqualification order is an order that a person may not, without the leave of the Tribunal: 63 (a) be, or continue to be, a director of a company; (b) be a liquidator or provisional liquidator of a company; (c) be a receiver or manager of a company's property; or (d) in any way, whether directly or indirectly, be concerned or take part in the promotion, formation or management of a company, for a period, not exceeding 5 years, specified in and beginning with the date of the disqualification order. 78. For the purpose of deciding whether a person is unfit to be concerned in the management of a company, the Tribunal: (1) must have regard to certain matters, including whether the person's conduct contributed to the contravention of the competition rule; or where the conduct of the person did not contribute to the contravention, but the person had reasonable grounds to suspect that the conduct of the company constituted the contravention and took no steps to prevent it; or where the person did not know but ought to have known that the conduct of the company constituted the contravention; and (2) may have regard to the conduct of 62 Ordinance s.101(1), 102. 63 Ordinance s.101(2)-(3). 28

102 the person as a director of a company in connection with any other contravention of a competition rule. 64 Cl(d) Standard of proof 79. As stated at paragraph 72 above, the Commission may apply for pecuniary penalties against persons contravening the FCR or involved in a contravention of the FCR. 80. In cases where the Commission seeks pecuniary penalties, the Tribunal has held that the applicable standard of proof is the criminal standard of beyond reasonable doubt. 65 However, the Court of Appeal has since stated obiter that there is a "reasonably arguable basis" for suggesting that the Tribunal might have erred in its ruling on the standard of proof. 66 81. Without prejudice to the foregoing, in applying the criminal standard of proof, the Tribunal also held that: (1) It is not necessary for every item of evidence produced to satisfy the standard of proof in relation to every aspect of the contravention. It is sufficient if the body of evidence relied on, viewed as a whole, satisfies the burden. 67 (2) The Tribunal can, like any other trier of fact, draw appropriate inferences from facts. Indeed, since it is normal for anticompetitive conduct to take place in secret and with the minimum of documentation, in many competition cases the existence of the practice or agreement in question has to be inferred. 68 64 Ordinance s .10 3. 65 W Hing [2019] HKCT 3 at §39. 66 W Hing [2021] HKCA 877, [2021] 3 HKLRD 219 at §84. 67 Nutanix [2019] HKCT 2 at §73. 68 Nutanix [2019] HKCT 2 at §§74-75; and s.7(2) of the Ordinance ("An undertaking may be taken to have made or given effect to an agreement or decision or to have engaged in a concerted practice that has as its object the prevention, restriction or distortion of competition even if that object can be ascertained only by inference."). 29

103 82. In these proceedings, the Commission contends that the applicable standard of proof, in respect of proceedings against the Respondents in respect of whom the Commission seeks pecuniary penalties, is that of the civil standard (i.e., on the balance of probabilities). If, which is denied, the correct standard remains the criminal standard, the Commission avers that its case is also met on that standard. 83. In the case of HF Chan (Rl9/Wai Yip), against whom the Commission does not seek pecuniary penalties, the Commission contends that the applicable standard of proof is that of the civil standard. C2. Building Maintenance Projects in Hong Kong 84. By way of general overview of the context in which the Tenders took place, a typical / commonplace set of arrangements and procedures in respect of a building maintenance project in Hong Kong would involve the following features: (1) The building owners (such as the Incorporated Owners ("IO") of a building) would appoint a building consultant usually through a tendering process to carry out the prescribed inspection and supervise the prescribed repair works. (2) The selected building consultant would then conduct a building inspection (with building professionals under its employment) to identify the defects in need of repair and then prepare the building contractor tender to select a building contractor accordingly. (3) The building owners, whether through the appointed building consultant or otherwise, would invite tenders from building contractors for a specified scope of maintenance work. The method of invitation may be by way of open tendering ( such as putting advertisement in newspapers) or selective / restricted tendering (where tenders are invited from only a predetermined 30

104 list of limited number of contractors drawn up using a certain method and/or based on certain criteria). 69 ( 4) The tender invitation documents would normally request for submissions of, inter alia, the estimated quantities and breakdown of tender prices for individual major works items. (5) Building contractors would compete amongst themselves in bidding for the relevant building maintenance project. A crucial, if not often determinative, consideration for the building owners in deciding whether or not to award the tender to a specific building contractor is the tender price. ( 6) Upon receipt of the tenders by the relevant deadline, building owners would, through their respective building consultants or otherwise, collate the information from the bids in question and evaluate the tenders received. (7) In general, tenders for building maintenance contracts would be assessed using a lowest price conforming tender approach, under which tenders from contractors who have fulfilled the mandatory/qualifying requirements and submitted conforming tenders would be ranked in accordance with the tender prices, i.e. the conforming tender with the lowest price would be ranked first, and so on. (8) Maintenance works would normally commence after a building contractor is selected by the owners of the building, followed by the subsequent supervision, quality check by the building consultant until completion. C3. The Tenders 85. As pleaded above, this Application concerns the Tenders in respect of 11 building maintenance projects. 69 All Tenders are open tenders save and except the Kwai Fung Tender. 31

105 C3(a) Tsui Lam Estate 86. On 29 April 2022, the IO of Tsui Lam Estate advertised and published a tender invitation notice by way of newspaper advertisement. Interested tenderers were asked to submit a letter of intent, pre-qualification documents, and the curriculum vitae of responsible persons. 30 qualified tenderers submitted the requested documents. 87. On 10 June 2022, the IO issued tender documents to all 30 tenderers. 88. In June 2022, Smart Goal (R2/DBU), Cheung Lee (R5), Ngai Lam (R6), Wang Y at (R 7), Wai Yip (RS) and Chun Hung (R9) each submitted a bid to the Tsui Lam Tender. 89. On or about 21 June 2022 (i.e. prior to the tender closing date on 24 June 2022), Cheung (Rl/DBU) expressed to Leung Chin Pang (who subsequently became a director of Smart Goal (R2/DBU) on 5 September 2022) that it was confirmed that Smart Goal (R2/DBU) would rank number 1 (i.e., it was to be the lowest priced bidder) in the Tsui Lam Tender. 90. In respect of Cheung Lee (RS). it was agreed and/or otherwise understood between DBU and Cheung Lee (R5) that Cheung Lee (R5) would be and was given pricing instructions (i.e. "homework"), and Cheung Lee (R5) would price its bid for the Tsui Lam Tender in accordance with or by reference to the "homework" distributed to it, whether in part or in full. (1) On or about 21 June 2022, KK Chan (RlO/DBU) sent a PDF document titled "Tsui Lam - Cheung" (~ifif-rn to WS Lau (R15/Cheung Lee) containing tender pricing infonnation at HK$166,002,750 (for items 1.0- 12.0 with specific breakdowns). (2) WS Lau (Rl5/Cheung Lee) acknowledged that these were "homework", but complained that the numbers were not rounded up such that copying them onto the tender document would be tedious. In response, KK Chan 32

106 (RlO/DBU) stated that this was done on purpose -there were so many sets of "homework", and it was difficult to have so many rounded figures. (3) Eventually, Cheung Lee (R5) submitted a bid with tender price at HK$178,501,642 (for items 1.0-12.0). There is an exact match between the tender prices of those items and the corresponding items in the "homework", save for items 4 and 6.1.70 ( 4) Cheung Lee (R5) did not have technical or managerial capability to take up the project. It submitted the bid tender submission only to make up the numbers. 91. In respect of Wai Yip (R8), it was agreed and/or otherwise understood between DBU and Wai Yip (R8) that Wai Yip (R8) would be and was given pricing instructions (i.e. "homework"), and Wai Yip (R8) would price its bids for the Tsui Lam Tender in accordance with or by reference to the "homework" distributed to it, whether in part or in full. (1) On or about 22 June 2022, Cheung (Rl/DBU) sent a PDF document titled "Tsui Lam - Wai Yip (New)" (~{,f - lf~ ( fJr ) ) to Yuki Chan (R18/Wai Yip) containing tender pricing information at HK$163,586,209 (for items 1.0-12.0 with specific breakdowns). Cheung (Rl/DBU) instructed Yuki Chan (Rl 8/Wai Yip) to follow these instructions and not to make mistakes. Yuki Chan (R18/Wai Yip) acknowledged. (2) Eventually, Wai Yip (R8) submitted a bid with tender pnce at HK$176,238,066 (for items 1.0-12.0). There is an exact match between the 7° For item 4, the "homework'' price is HK$396,550 whereas the tender price was HK$12,895,442; for item 6.1, which is an optional item, the "homeworlc' price was HK$ 14,238,300 whereas the tender price was HK$ I 5,265,440. 33

107 tender prices of those items and their corresponding pnces in the "homework", save for items 4 and 6.1.71 92. It is the Commission's case that Ngai Lam (R6) and Wang Yat (R7) similarly and respectively agreed with DBU (through KK Chan (RlO/DBU) or otherwise), and/or it was understood amongst them, that they would be and were given pricing instructions (i.e. "homework"), and they would price their bids for the Tsui Lam Tender in accordance with or by reference to the "homework" distributed to them, whether in part or in full. (1) Ngai Lam (R6) submitted a bid with tender price at HK$183,041,352 (for items 1.0-12.0). (2) Wang Yat (R7) submitted a bid with tender price at HK$183,907,936 (for items 1.0-12.0). (3) The Commission reserves the right to amend this ONA and/or provide further particulars upon discovery and/or administration of interrogatories (if so advised). 93. Smart Goal (R2/DBU) submitted a bid with tender price at HK$172,690,394 for the Tsui Lam Tender. According to the tender analysis report, Smart Goal (R2/DBU) was ranked the first as having submitted the lowest overall bid. 94. In the event, the Tsui Lam Estate Tender was not awarded to any bidder but was re-tendered. 7 1 For item 4, the "homework:' price is HK$253,500 whereas the tender price was HK$12,905,357; for item 6.1, which is an optional item, the "homework:' price was HK$14,364,980 whereas the tender price was HK$13,005,000. 34

108 C3(b) Tak Shun Industrial Building 95. On 5 July 2022, the IO of Tak Shun Industrial Building advertised and published a pre-qualification tender invitation notice by way of newspaper advertisement. Interested tenderers were asked to submit, inter alia, pre-qualification documents. 96. In respect of Cheung Lee (R5). it was agreed and/or otherwise understood between DBU and Cheung Lee (R5) that Cheung Lee (RS) would be given pricing instructions (i.e. "homework"), and Cheung Lee (R5) would price its bids for the Tak Shun Tender in accordance with or by reference to the "homework" distributed to it, whether in part or in full. 97. In July 2022, MK Wong (Rl 4/DBU) agreed with WS Lau (RI 5/Cheung Lee) that: (1) Cheung Lee (R5) would submit an expression of interest to the Tak Shun Tender (with DBU reimbursing Cheung Lee (R5) the tender administration fees). (2) MK Wong (Rl4/DBU) further agreed with WS Lau (Rl5/Cheung Lee) that he would (a) send someone to help Cheung Lee (R5) make the submission, and (b) assist Cheung Lee (R5) to change from the status of "helper" CM +) to "main character" (.:t.~) in the Tak Shun Tender. 98. On or about 29 August 2022: (1) WS Lau (Rl5/Cheung Lee) clarified with KK Chan (RI0/DBU) whether KK Chan (RI0/DBU) summoned Cheung Lee (R5) regarding the Tak Shun Tender, to which KK Chan (RI 0/DBU) confirmed affirmatively. (2) KK Chan (RI 0/DBU) forwarded a PDF document titled "Tak Shun - Project budget-BQ.pdj' ( {t {§ - Project budget-BQ.pdf) to WS Lau (R15/Cheung Lee) and stated the "homework". The PDF document contained tender pricing information with a tender price at HK$4,556,000. 35

109 99. In August 2022, Smart Goal (R2/DBU) and Cheung Lee (R5) each submitted a bid to the Tak Shun Tender. (1) Cheung Lee (R5) submitted a bid with tender price at HK$4,556,000. This exactly matched the "homework". (2) Smart Goal (R2/DBU) submitted a bid with tender price at HK$4,363,600. It was the lowest priced bid amongst Cheung Lee (R5) and Smart Goal (R2/DBU). 100. In the event, another bidder was awarded the Tak Shun Tender. C3(c) Neptune Terrace 101. On 29 August 2022, the IO of Neptune Terrace advertised and published a tender invitation notice by way of newspaper advertisement. 102. In respect of Cheung Lee (R5). it was agreed and/or otherwise understood between DBU and Cheung Lee (R5) that Cheung Lee (R5) would be and was given pricing instructions (i.e. "homework"), and Cheung Lee (R5) would price its bid for the Neptune Terrace Tender in accordance with or by reference to the "homework" distributed to it, whether in part or in full. (1) On or about 9 October 2022, KK Chan (RlO/DBU) sent WS Lau (Rl5/Cheung Lee) a PDF document on WhatsApp titled "Neptune Terrace

deadline on Wednesday" (~Jt)l=l M~) and "Good position" (ij~f:fr). (2) The PDF document contained tender pricing information with the tender price at HK$99,189,035 (for items 1 to 13) and HK$8,985,140 (for items 14 to 16). 36

110 (3) Eventually, Cheung Lee (R5) submitted a bid with tender pnce at HK$99,189,035 (for items 1 to 13) and HK$8,985,140 (for items 14 to 16). There is an exact match with the "homewodc'. 103. It is the Commission's case that Ngai Lam (R6), Wang Yat (R7) and Chun Hung (R9) similarly and respectively agreed with DBU, and/or it was understood amongst them, that they would be and were given pricing instructions (i.e. "homework"), and they would price their bids for the Neptune Terrace Tender in accordance with or by reference to the "homework" distributed to them, whether in part or in full. (1) Ngai Lam (R6) submitted a bid with tender price at HK$99,677,725 (items 1 to 13) and HK$8,405,300 (items 14 to 16). (a)

This is an exact match with a PDF document titled "Neptune Terrace

Ngai Lam", containing tender pricing information at HK$99,677,725 (for items 1 to 13) and HK$8,405,300 (for items 14 to 16). (b) This PDF document was sent from KK Chan (Rl 0/DBU) to one Lai Yee Ki ("Janelle Lai") (who worked for Dream Building Construction (R4/DBU) ( or at the very least, a company under the "Dream Building" brand) and claimed that Cheung (Rl/DBU) was her employer). ( c) The irresistible inference to be drawn is that this document was eventually sent to Ngai Lam (R6), and Ngai Lam (R6) priced its bid in accordance with this piece of "homework". (2) Wang Yat (R7) submitted a bid with tender price at HK$99,415,665 (items 1 to 13) and HK$7,328,925 (items 14 to 16). (3) Chun Hung (R9) submitted a bid with tender price at HK$98,279,555 (items 1 to 13) and HK$8,265,500 (items 14 to 16). 37

111 (4) The Commission reserves the right to amend this ONA and/or provide further particulars upon discovery and/or administration of interrogatories (if so advised). 104. Smart Goal (R2/DBU) submitted a bid with tender price at HK$87 ,522,050 (items 1 to 13) and HK$8,591,505 (items 14 to 16) for the Neptune Terrace Tender. It was the lowest priced bid amongst Smart Goal (R2/DBU), Cheung Lee (RS), Ngai Lam (R6), Wang Yat (R7) and Chun Hung (R9). 105. In the event, another bidder was awarded the Neptune Terrace Tender. CJ(d) Yen Che Building 106. On 14 November 2022, the IO of Yen Che Building advertised and published a tender invitation notice by way of newspaper advertisement. 107. In respect of Cheung Lee (RS), it was agreed and/or otherwise understood between DBU and Cheung Lee (R5) that Cheung Lee (RS) would be and was given pricing instructions (i.e. "homework"), and Cheung Lee (RS) would price its bid for the Yen Che Tender in accordance with or by reference to the "homework" distributed to it, whether in part or in full. (1) On or about 15 November 2022, Hugo Lee (Rl2/DBU) requested WS Lau (RI 5/Cheung Lee) to obtain and submit tender documents for the Yen Che Tender, to which WS Lau (Rl5/Cheung Lee) acknowledged the intended arrangement. (2) On or about 12 December 2022, Hugo Lee (Rl2/DBU) indicated to WS Lau (Rl5/Cheung Lee) that "homework" would be given to Cheung Lee (RS) soon. WS Lau (Rl5/Cheung Lee) acknowledged the intended arrangement. (3) On 15 December 2022 (the day after Smart Goal (R2/DBU) submitted its bid on 14 December 2022), Hugo Lee (Rl2/DBU) stated to WS Lau 38

112 (Rl5/Cheung Lee) that he would calculate the sub-items and give WS Lau (R15/Cheung Lee) the "homework" later. (4) On 15 December 2022, Hugo Lee (R12/DBU) sent a PDF document titled "SKMC360i22121516580.pdf' to WS Lau (Rl5/Cheung Lee), and texted him "Yen Che homework" and ''please submit by 17:00 tomorrow". The PDF document contained tender pricing information with a tender price at HK$2,699,541.20 (Plan 1). (5) Eventually, Cheung Lee (RS) submitted a bid with tender price at HK$2,699,541.20 (Plan 1) and HK$5,104,887.20 (Plan 2), with HK$854,500.00 (for the optional item). There is an exact match between the tender price of Plan 1 with that in the "homework". 108. On 14 December 2022, Smart Goal (R2/DBU) submitted a bid with tender price at HK$2,158,845 (Plan 1) and HK$4,259,695 (Plan 2), with HK$733,150 (for the optional item). 109. For completeness, the Yen Che Tender was awarded to Wang Yat (R7), who submitted a bid with tender price at HK$2,590,010 (Plan 1) and HK$4,922,030 (Plan 2), with HK$826,000 (for the optional item). According to the tender analysis report: (1) Cheung Lee (R5) ranked 7th out of 25 with a score of 92; (2) Smart Goal (R2/DBU) ranked 2nd out of25 with a score of 102; and (3) Wang Yat (R7) ranked 1st out of25 with a score of 103. The Commission reserves the right to amend this ONA and/or provide further particulars upon discovery and/ or administration of interrogatories (if so advised). 39

113 C3(e) Kwai Fung House 110. On 14 December 2022, the IO of K wai Fung House invited tenders from RGBCs on a closed tender basis (i.e. the Kwai Fung Tender). 111. The building consultant engaged by the IO ofK wai Fung House for the K wai Fung Tender was Dynamics Architect, whom KK Chan (RlO/DBU) described as "one of us" (Dtf {I Rffl FpiJ¥vt~of*itt □tili0 oJ Df ' ~l}JJJt~r pittt atjft § e,D~ ' 01:fOfb~oirttt □tilin 0lfflf't?f~Df) when facilitating the Subject Arrangement. 112. In respect of Cheung Lee (RS), it was agreed and/ or otherwise understood between DBU and Cheung Lee (R5) that Cheung Lee (R5) would be and was given pricing instructions (i.e. "homework"), and Cheung Lee (R5) would price its bid for the Kwai Fung Tender in accordance with or by reference to the "homework" distributed to it, whether in part or in full. (1) On or about 28 December 2022, MK Wong (Rl4/DBU) sent a PDF document entitled "20221227194347" to WS Lau (Rl5/Cheung Lee) containing tender pricing information at HK$5,963,058 (with breakdown for items 1 to 6). (2) On the same day, Cheung Lee (RS) submitted its bid with tender price at HK$5,974,958 (for items 1 to 6). There is an exact match with the "homework" insofar as items 1 to 5 are concerned.72 113. In respect of Ngai Lam (R6): ( 1) It is the Commission's case that Ngai Lam (R6) similarly agreed with DBU, and/or it was understood between them, that: (a) Ngai Lam (R6) would be and were given pricing instructions (i.e. "homework"), and it would price its bid for the Kwai Fung Tender 72 In respect of item 6, the "'homewor!c' price was HK$1,63 l,300; the tender price was HK$1,643,200. 40

114 in accordance with or by reference to the "homework" distributed to it, whether in part or in full. (b) Alternatively, Ngai Lam (R6) would submit a bid in response to the Kwai Fung Tender when it would otherwise not have submitted but for the agreement or understanding between Ngai Lam (R6) and DBU. (2) In particular, between 20 December 2022 and 23 December 2022, KK Chan (Rl0/DBU) and SW Ngai (Rl6/Ngai Lam) engaged in discussions where KK Chan (RlO/DBU) indicated that "We want to submit this tender" (iz □ftl! lEl~ □lb~-Rf~D;f) and requested SW Ngai (Rl6/Ngai Lam) to give him a cheque for the Kwai Fung Tender, and offered to help submit company information in relation to the Kwai Fung Tender. SWNgai (Rl6/Ngai Lam) sent documents relating to Ngai Lam (R6)'s company information to KK Chan (Rl0/DBU), and offered to give him a new bank proof. (3) Eventually, Ngai Lam (R6) submitted a bid with tender price at HK$5,813,l 10. ( 4) The irresistible inference is that Ngai Lam (R6)' s submission of the bid in response to the Kwai Fung Tender was arrived at by an agreement or understanding between Ngai Lam (R6) and DBU. (5) The Commission reserves the right to amend this ONA and/or provide further particulars upon discovery and/or administration of interrogatories (if so advised). 114. Smart Goal (R2/DBU) submitted a bid with tender price at HK$5,158,510. It was the lowest priced bid amongst Smart Goal (R2/DBU), Cheung Lee (RS) and Ngai Lam (R6). On 10 July 2023, the Kwai Fung Tender was awarded to Smart Goal (R2/DBU), with the final contract price negotiated down to HK$5,150,000. 41

115 C3(f) Victory Garden 115. On 21 December 2022, the IO of Victory Garden invited tenders for building maintenance works at Victory Garden (i.e. the Victory Garden Tender). 116. In respect of Cheung Lee (R5), it was agreed and/or otherwise understood between DBU and Cheung Lee (R5) that Cheung Lee (R5) would be and was given pricing instructions (i.e. "homeworlc'), and Cheung Lee (R5) would price its bid for the Victory Garden Tender in accordance with or by reference to the "homework" distributed to it, whether in part or in full. (1) On or about 10 February 2023, KK Chan (RIO/DBU) sent to WS Lau (Rl5/Cheung Lee) a PDF document titled "Victory Garden - Cheung.pd/' ( tEt Mf-1$ .pdf) containing pricing information, and sent him a voice message, which, inter alia, reminded him of the tender submission deadline and stated that Cheung Lee (R5) is "in a good position" ( ft!~fil.D~~!JHfI.). The "homework" prices were as follows: (a) Total tender price for key items: HK$16,686,881 (b) Total tender price for fire safety order work: HK$2,506,485 (2) Eventually, Cheung Lee (R5) submitted a bid with tender price exactly matching the "homework" price. 117. It is the Commission's case that gai Lam (R6) and Wang Yat (R7) similarly and respectively agreed with DBU, and/or it was understood amongst them, that they would be and were given pricing instructions (i.e. "homework"), and they would price their bids for the Victory Garden Tender in accordance with or by reference to the "homework" distributed to them, whether in part or in full. (1) Ngai Lam (R6) submitted a bid with tender price as follows: (a) Total tender price for key items: HK$16,388,744 42

116 (b) Total tender price for fire safety order work: HK$2,424,415 (2) Wang Yat (R7) submitted a bid with tender price as follows: (a) Total tender price for key items: HK$16,434,981 (b) Total tender price for fire safety order work: HK$2,489,265 (3) Further, in respect of Wang Yat (R7)'s submission of bid: (a) On or about 25 October 2023, Tang Ho Fai, a sub-contractor of Wang Yat (R7), asked KC Lai (Rl 7/Wang Yat) on WhatsApp "Victory Garden" (tEtij9J:7i;~I), "Lai Sir. Are you following others' homework? You didn't calculate price?" (~ Sir al¥) ... {t □Fcf.t{Dg f)._ □tfuf~m~tfm □~ ? § 2i11~*t~ □~ ? ) (b) KC Lai (Rl 7/Wang Yat) responded "homework" (]).J!J). (4) The Commission reserves the right to amend this ONA and/or provide further particulars upon discovery and/or administration of interrogatories (if so advised). 118. Smart Goal (R2/DBU) submitted a bid with tender price at HK$15,951,689 (for key items) and HK$2,376,545 (for fire safety order work). It was the lowest priced bid amongst Smart Goal (R2/DBU), Cheung Lee (RS), Ngai Lam (R6) and Wang Yat (R7). 119. Eventually, the Victory Garden Tender was awarded to Smart Goal (R2/DBU), but the contract was executed on 3 February 2024 at a price of HK$23,455,612 (comprising reserve fund). 43

117 C3(g) Chung Sing Building 120. On 22 March 2023, the IO of Chung Sing Building invited tenders for building maintenance works at Chung Sing Building (i.e. the Chung Sing Tender). 121. In respect of Cheung Lee (R5), it was agreed and/or otherwise understood between DBU and Cheung Lee (R5) that Cheung Lee (R5) would be and was given pricing instructions (i.e. "homework"), and Cheung Lee (R5) would price its bid for the Chung Sing Tender in accordance with or by reference to the "homework" distributed to it, whether in part or in full. (1) On or about 27 April 2023, Hugo Lee (Rl2/DBU) informed WS Lau (Rl 5/Cheung Lee) that Cheung Lee (R5) was also a "main character" (.±. ftEI), and Hugo Lee (R12/DBU) would have information in the afternoon to prepare "homework" and send him after the calculations were done. (2) Eventually, Cheung Lee (R5) submitted a bid with a lump sum tender price of HK$18,377,650. This matches the document which Hugo Lee (Rl2/DBU) sent WS Lau (Rl5/Cheung Lee) on 29 April 2023, i.e. a PDF document titled "0144_001.pdf' and referred to by Hugo Lee (Rl2/DBU) as "Chung Sing homework" - it contained tender pricing information with the tender price at HK$18,377,650 (identical to the bid submitted). 122. In respect of Ngai Lam (R6): ( 1) It is the Commission's case that Ngai Lam (R6) similarly agreed with DBU, and/or it was understood between them, that: (a) Ngai Lam (R6) would be and was given pricing instructions (i.e. "homework"), and it would price its bid for the Chung Sing Tender in accordance with or by reference to the "homework" distributed to it, whether in part or in full. 44

118 (b) Alternatively, Ngai Lam (R6) would submit a bid in response to the Chung Sing Tender when it would otherwise not have submitted one but for the agreement or understanding between Ngai Lam (R6) and DBU. (2) In particular, Ngai Lam (R6) gave requisite documents/credentials to Marvin Siu (Rl3/DBU), including via a OneDrive link titled "Chung Sing Building", so that Marvin Siu (R13/DBU) could submit tender for Ngai Lam (R6). (3) Eventually, Ngai Lam (R6) submitted a bid with a lump sum tender price at HK$19,231,950. ( 4) The irresistible inference is that Ngai Lam (R6)' s submission of the bid in response to the Chung Sing Tender was arrived at by an agreement or understanding between Ngai Lam (R6) and DBU. (5) The Commission reserves the right to amend this ONA and/or provide further particulars upon discovery and/or administration of interrogatories (if so advised). 123. Smart Goal (R2/DBU) submitted a bid with a lump sum tender price at HK$13,994,039 (before amendment) and HK$17,059,179 (after amendment). It was the lowest priced bid amongst Smart Goal (R2/DBU), Cheung Lee (R5) and Ngai Lam (R6). 124. In the event, the Chung Sing Tender was awarded to another bidder. C3(h) 31 Yiu Wa Street 125. On 5 January 2023, the owners of properties at 31 Yiu Wa Street advertised and published a tender invitation notice by way of newspaper advertisement (i.e. the Yiu Wa Tender). 45

119 126. In respect of Cheung Lee (RS), it was agreed and/or otherwise understood between DBU and Cheung Lee (RS) that Cheung Lee (RS) would be and was given pricing instructions (i.e. "homeworlc'), and Cheung Lee (RS) would price its bid for the Yiu Wa Tender in accordance with or by reference to the "homework" distributed to it, whether in part or in full. (1) On 23 May 2023, Hugo Lee (R12/DBU) sent to WS Lau (Rl5/Cheung Lee) a photo containing tender pricing information with tender price at HK$1,298,250, and stated "31 Yiu Wa Street, homework, deadline is on 25th". WS Lau (Rl5/Cheung Lee) acknowledged receipt. (2) On or about 23 May 2023, WS Lau (Rl 5/Cheung Lee) forwarded the tender pricing information sent by Hugo Lee (Rl2/DBU) to Chan Yuen Man Yammi ("Yammi Chan"), secretary of Cheung Lee (RS), who replied "OK". (3) The "homework" pricing was as follows: (a) Item 1: HK$163,000 (b) Item 2: HK$185,200 (c) Item 3: HK$54,000 (d) Item 4: HK$110,500 (e) Item 5: HK$644,700 (f) Item 6: HK$1 l,250 (g) Item 7: HK$98,100 (h) Item 8: HK$3 l ,500 (i) Item 9: HK$192,900 46

120 (j) Total price: HK$1,298,250 (items 1 to 8); or HK$1,491,150 (items 1 to 8, including optional item 9) ( 4) The actual tender price of Cheung Lee (RS) was as follows: (a) Item 1: HK$ l 57,960 (b) Item 2: HK$150,340 (c) Item 3: HK$3 l ,800 (d) Item 4: HK$95,960 (e) Item 5: HK$591,600 (f) Item 6: HK$ l 4,600 (g) Item 7: HK$90,200 (h) Item 8: HK$38,520 (i) Item 9: HK$143,640 (j) Total price: HK$1,170,980 (items 1 to 8); HK$1,314,620 (items 1 to 8, including optional item 9) (k) Total price after discount for items 1 to 8: HK$1,159,000. (5) Cheung Lee (R5) priced its tender price with reference to the "homework" distributed to it. At the very least, the "homework" was a starting or anchoring reference point for Cheung Lee (R5)'s actual tender price. In any event, having received the "homework" from DBU, Cheung Lee (R5) cannot have failed to take that information into account when formulating its policy on the market when submitting its bid for the Yiu Wa Tender. 47

121 127. Smart Goal (R2/DBU) submitted with tender prices at HK$1,259,600 (for items 1 to 8) and HK$1,380,100 (for items 1 to 8, including optional item 9). 128. In the event, another bidder was awarded the Yiu Wa Tender. C3(i) Tai Ping Industrial Centre, Block 1 129. On 3 April 2023, the IO of Tai Ping Industrial Centre, Block I advertised and published a pre-qualification tender invitation notice by way of newspaper advertisement. Interested tenderers were asked to submit, inter alia, pre- qualification documents, together with the curriculum vitae of responsible persons. 130. On 12 May 2023, after assessing the pre-qualification documents, Multiway Consultants Limited, as building consultants engaged by the IO of Tai Ping Industrial Centre, Block 1, wrote to, inter alia, Smart Goal (R2/DBU), Cheung Lee (RS), Wang Yat (R7) and Chun Hung (R9) inviting them to submit tender documents for the Tai Ping Tender. 131. In respect of Cheung Lee (R5). it was agreed and/or otherwise understood between DBU and Cheung Lee (R5) that Cheung Lee (R5) would be and was given pricing instructions (i.e. "homework"), and Cheung Lee (R5) would price its bid for the Tai Ping Tender in accordance with or by reference to the "homework" distributed to it, whether in part or in full. (1) On 1 June 2023, KK Chan (RIO/DBU) forwarded to WS Lau (R15/Cheung Lee) a PDF document titled "Cheung Lee.pdj' (lfl[J.pdf) and stated "Tai Ping". The document set out a breakdown of tender prices (for items 1 to 7), purportedly totalling HK$9,875,000. (a) Item 1: HK$1,365,000 (b) Item 2: HK$2,875,000 48

122 (c) Item 3: HK$2,160,000 (d) Item 4: HK$2,960,000 (e) Item 5: HK$240,000 (f) Item 6: HK$195,000 (g) Item 7: HK$80,000 (h) Total price: HK$9,875,000 (2) On or about 5 June 2023, WS Lau (Rl5/Cheung Lee) asked KK Chan (RlO/DBU) about item 6, stating that the numbers did not add up. In response, KK Chan (Rl0/DBU) asked WS Lau (Rl5/Cheung Lee) to ask" i/fi-l!/' as the "homework" was from him. (3) Eventually, Cheung Lee (R5) submitted a bid with tender prices as follows

HK$10,000 deviation from the "homework" price for item l; there was a HK$122,000 deviation from the "homework" price for item 6. 132. Smart Goal (R2/DBU) submitted a bid with tender price at HK$9,130,500 (for items 1 to 7). It was the lower priced bid as between Smart Goal (R2/DBU) and Cheung Lee (R5). Smart Goal (R2/DBU) was eventually awarded the Tai Ping Tender. C3(j) Wang Fuk Court 133. On or about 16 May 2023, the IO of Wang Fuk Court invited tenders for building maintenance works at Wang Fuk Court (i.e. the Wang Fuk Tender). 134. In respect of Cheung Lee (RS). it was agreed and/or otherwise understood between DBU and Cheung Lee (R5) that Cheung Lee (R5) would be and was given pricing 49

123 instructions (i.e. "homework"), and Cheung Lee (R5) would price its bids for the Wang Fuk Tender in accordance with or by reference to the "homework" distributed to it, whether in part or in full. (1) On or about 1 July 2023, KK Chan (Rl0/DBU) sent WS Lau (Rl5/Cheung Lee) a PDF document titled "Wang Fuk - Cheung" ( ;e ti- t-F) on WhatsApp. The PDF document contained tender pricing information with, amongst others, the tender price at HK$176,426,896 (total) (mandatory items) with a breakdown for items. (2) Eventually, Cheung Lee (R5) submitted a bid with tender pnce for individual price items (apart from item 6 of the mandatory items73) exactly matching the "homework'' price. 135. In respect ofNgai Lam (R6), it was agreed and/or otherwise understood between DBU and Ngai Lam (R6) that Ngai Lam (R6) would be and was given pricing instructions (i.e. "homework"), and Ngai Lam (R6) would price its bids for the Wang Fuk Tender in accordance with or by reference to the "homework" distributed to it, whether in part or in full. (1) On or about 2 July 2023, Marvin Siu (R13/DBU) forwarded a PDF document titled "Wang Fuk - Ngai.pdf' (~ti -~.pdf) to SW Ngai (Rl6/Ngai Lam). The PDF document contained tender pricing information with, amongst others, the tender price at HK$171,934,470 (total) (mandatory items). Marvin Siu (R13/DBU) further stated to SW Ngai (R16/Ngai Lam) that that was the tender pricing information, asked him to have a look and requested that he ask his nephew to reply with the cover letter. 73 The "homewor/c' price for item 6 was HK$9,362,880, whereas the submitted tender price for item 6 was HK$9,362,288. This is an inconsequential discrepancy, whether as a result of Cheung Lee (RS)'s inadvertent mistake when copying "homework' or otherwise. 50

124 (2) On or about 3 July 2023, SW Ngai (Rl6/Ngai Lam) sent Marvin Siu (R13/DBU) a PDF document titled "CoverLetter.pdf', which was Ngai Lam (R6)'s cover letter to its tender submission to the Wang Fuk Tender. (3) Eventually, Ngai Lam (R6) submitted a bid with, amongst others, tender prices as follows: (a) Total price for Option I (Paint Brand AKA): HK$171,934,470 (b) Total price for Option 1 (Paint Brand SKK): HK$175,740,059 (4) The total price for Option I (Paint Brand AKA) matches with the "homework" total price. 136. In respect of Wang Yat (R7). it is the Commission's case that: (1) It was agreed and/or otherwise understood between DBU and Wang Yat (R 7) that Wang Y at (R 7) would be and was given pricing instructions (i.e. "homework"), and Wang Yat (R7) would price its bid for the Wang Fuk Tender in accordance with or by reference to the "homework" distributed to it, whether in part or in full. (2) Alternatively, Wang Yat (R7) exchanged competitively sensitive information with DBU. (3) On or about 11 May 2023, KK Chan (RIO/DBU) messaged KC Lai (RI 7/Wang Yat) on WhatsApp "Tai Po Wang Fuk Court, 16/05 tender for a building contractor", to which KC Lai (RI 7/Wang Yat) replied with the "OK'' emoji. (4) On or about 29 June 2023, KC Lai (R17/Wang Yat) sent a PDF document titled "Wang Fuk quotation.pd/' (5ftiflH'1.pdf) to KK Chan (Rl0/DBU). The PDF document contains tender pricing information with the tender prices at HK$165,290,924 (total). 51

125 (5) Wang Yat (R7) eventually submitted a bid with tender prices as follows: (a) Total price for Option 1 (Paint Brand AKA): HK$173,467,188 (b) Total price for Option 1 (Paint Brand SKK): HKI 77,774,399 137. Smart Goal (R2/DBU) submitted a bid with tender prices as follows: (1) Total price for Option I (Paint Brand AKA): HK$168,016,788 (2) Total price for Option 1 (Paint Brand SKK): HK$172,727,817 It was the lowest priced bid amongst Smart Goal (R2/DBU), Cheung Lee (R5), Ngai Lam (R6) and Wang Yat (R7). 138. For completeness, the Commission also avers that: (1) On or around 2 July 2023, Wong Wing Hong ("WH Wong") of Pacific Glory Management Limited asked Cheung (Rl/DBU) on WhatsApp "is there homework for Wang Fuk Court?" (i~fJ:fl;J~l□,~?) and "how many do you need" (:8,{4). (2) Cheung (Rl/DBU) replied "three" and "there will be homework tomorrow morning" ( ~ ~ ~ -m gf ), and repeated that "ask three [building contractors}, will give homework tomorrow morning, and submit a bid the day after" ( □W -{4UffI ' ft~JjtcJ}Jgf ' f~ E3 :>(:;& ). (3) WH Wong replied "/will try my best, it's so late!" ({it.1JD,f!J , Ptfjl ! ) (4) The arrangement discussed between Cheung (Rl/DBU) and WH Wong did not ultimately materialize. However, there was a clear collusive scheme in contemplation. 139. In the event, the Wang Fuk Tender was awarded to another bidder. 52

126 C3(k) Alhambra Building 140. On or about 21 August 2023, the IO of Alhambra Building invited tenders for building maintenance works at Alhambra Building (i.e. the Alhambra Tender). 141. In respect of Cheung Lee (R5). it was agreed and/or otherwise understood between DBU and Cheung Lee (R5) that Cheung Lee (R5) would be and was given pricing instructions (i.e. "homework"), and Cheung Lee (R5) would price its bid for the Alhambra Tender in accordance with or by reference to the "homework" distributed to it, whether in part or in full. (1) On or around 8 September 2023, Suki Chow (Rl 1/DBU) forwarded the tender notice for the Alhambra Tender to WS Lau (R15/Cheung Lee) and asked, amongst other things, whether Cheung Lee (R5) had been approached for the Alhambra Tender because she forgot to "blow the whistle" to summon bidders Offi □ic[!Xii), and stated that they intend to ask 1 or 2 contractors to submit a bid. Discussions ensued as to how to price and/or submit a bid. (2) On or about 22 September 2023, WS Lau (R15/Cheung Lee) sent to Suki Chow (Rl 1/DBU) a PDF document titled "Alhambra Building (provided a quotation - subcontractor price).pdf' ( .5:j2. ~ 7C ti ( E ¥~ {I -ti fif[ ~ ) .pdf). The PDF document contained tender pricing information in relation to the Alhambra Tender, with the tender price at HK$30,553,966. (3) Thereafter, Suki Chow (RI 1/DBU) sent an Excel document titled "Alhambra Building 2.xlsx" to WS Lau (Rl5/Cheung Lee), and asked him to take a look at it. It contained tender pricing information in relation to the Alhambra Tender, with the tender price at HK$49,172,790. (4) WS Lau (Rl5/Cheung Lee) asked Suki Chow (Rll/DBU) "are we able to inflate the price this much" (~Dg~¥Ll~j(_D;f), "256 units, 49 million" and "190, 000 per unit". 53

127 (5) Suki Chow (Rl 1/DBU) replied "I'm thinking that the price of the contractors after you would be over 50 million. If you want, you can reduce the price by a bit. The goal of winning a tender is not to win cheap (t:p{l, {tlj:f □faffl t:pfj ' {t~ □reE83~tt □g{-{~ El fj~ □f □ffl). There appears to be many works items to do. If you want, you can cut the price by 3 million and price it at 46 million. We just won one tender. There were 36 units, and the price was over 200,000 per unit. It's like this. Tomorrow I can send you another one, if you are scared. $170,000 per unit, okay? It's about that price." (6) WS Lau (R15/Cheung Lee) responded: "let me have a look at it", to which Suki Chow (Rl 1/DBU) replied: "I intend that the tender prices of Smart Goal [(RI IDBU)J and Ngai Lam [(R6/DBU)J to be even higher" (f\t'~ {i ~ , ~fn)({q:i ~{q:i~as'guf , {q:i* □B'gtI;f{ill~). Suki Chow (Rl 1/DBU) also said: "ff okay, 160,000 per unit, you go first, then 170,000, then 180, 000. I will send you after I revise it." (7) Eventually, Cheung Lee (R5) submitted a bid with tender pnce at HK$49,172,790. This exactly matches the "homework" price. 142. Smart Goal (R2/DBU) also submitted a bid for the Alhambra Tender with tender price at HK$42,199,835. It was the lower priced bid as between Smart Goal (R2/DBU) and Cheung Lee (R5). 143. In the event, the Alhambra Tender was awarded to another bidder. C4. The 2nd to 9th Respondents' Contravention of the First Conduct Rule C4(a) Contravention of the First Conduct Rule 144. By reason of the matters pleaded above: 54

128 (1) The object of the Subject Arrangement was to restrict or distort competition amongst the building contractors who submitted bids in respect of each of the Tenders. (2) The Subject Arrangement involved, inter alia, fixing, maintaining, increasing and/or controlling the tender price (be it the price for individual sub-items or the total tender price) for the supply of Services by Smart Goal (R2/DBU) and/or the Instructed Bidders (as the case may be for each Tender). (a) At minimum, the "homework" distributed by DBU to the Instructed Bidders served as a starting or anchoring reference point, if not the price fixed, for the tender prices submitted for the Tenders. (b) In addition, in relation to all but the Yiu Wa Tender, the Instructed Bidders' bids appear to be "cover" quotes, designed to make Smart Goal (R2/DBU)'s bid appear to be priced lower. As to the Yiu Wa Tender, the "homework" given to the Instructed Bidder (i.e. Cheung Lee (R5)) contained a higher tender price than Smart Goal (R2)'s tender price. In other words, it was at least intended that Cheung Lee (R5)'s bid would be a "cover" quote, designed to make Smart Goal (R2/DBU)'s bid appear to be priced lower. ( c) There is also an exchange of information of price intentions as amongst Smart Goal (R2/DBU) and each of the Instructed Bidders (as the case may be for each Tender). (3) For the same reasons, the Subject Arrangement also involved, inter alia, submissions of bids or tenders that are arrived at by an agreement made between DBU and each of the Instructed Bidders (as the case may be for each Tender) and not known to the relevant building owners in respect of each of the Tenders. 55

129 ( 4) Further, the exchange of competitively sensitive information amongst Smart Goal (R2/DBU), Lermond Development (R3/DBU), Dream Building Construction (R4/DBU), Cheung Lee (RS), Ngai Lam (R6), Wang Yat (R7), Wai Yip (RS) and Chun Hung (R9) (as the case may be for each of the Tenders) in respect of the tender prices by the respective tenderers (as well as the indicated role of the respective tenderer - whether it would be a "main character" or "helper" - in the tendering process) reduced uncertainty for each of the tenderers as to the foreseeable conduct of competitors, thereby preventing or restricting competition between the respective tenderers. (5) Further, the Subject Arrangement also involved allocation (or at least intended allocation) of Tenders (and consequently (a) the tendering consumers and (b) the eventual contracts for the supply of Services with those consumers) to Smart Goal (R2) and/or an Instructed Bidder. In other words, by reason of the Subject Arrangement, Smart Goal (R2) and/or an Instructed Bidder (as the case may be) is designated a higher chance of being selected in the tendering exercise and awarded the eventual contract in respect of the Tenders. (6) The Subject Arrangement was by nature harmful to the proper functioning of normal competition given the economic and legal context in which it took place. It created conditions of competition that did not correspond to the normal conditions on the market by directly and/or indirectly affecting (a) the number of participants in the tendering process (and in turn the "choices" the building owners have); and (b) the tender prices submitted to and received by the building owners (and in tum, the actual price they pay for the relevant Services). (7) Further, as a result of the Subject Arrangement, the Tenders did not receive independently articulated bids (a) formulated by contractors wholly independent of each other and/or (b) as a result of individual economic calculation and independent preparation. 56

130 (8) In the premises, Smart Goal (R2/DBU), Lermond Development (R3/DBU), Dream Building Construction (R4/DBU), Cheung Lee (R5), Ngai Lam (R6), Wang Yat (R7), Wai Yip (R8) and Chun Hung (R9) (as the case may be for each of the Tenders) accordingly made and/or gave effect to an agreement or concerted practice with the object of preventing or restricting or distorting competition in Hong Kong in contravention of the FCR. 145. Lermond Development (R3/DBU) and Dream Building Construction (R4/DBU) are, together with Smart Goal (R2/DBU), liable as a single economic unit for the Contraventions. They form a single economic unit and are therefore the same undertaking for the reasons pleaded above and further particularized below: (1) Cheung (Rl/DBU) is the de facto controller of Smart Goal (R2/DBU), Lermond Development (R3/DBU) and Dream Building Construction (R4/DBU). (a) He is a director and sole shareholder of the latter two companies. He was regarded as the "boss". (b) He financed the acquisition of shares in Smart Goal (R2/DBU) and exercised de facto control of Smart Goal (R2/DBU), including over Smart Goal (R2/DBU)'s financial resources and commercial strategy, as well as all decisions related to tendering. TF Ho's role was nominal, and was the personal assistant of Cheung (Rl/DBU). He had influenced and dictated the intended transfer of shares in Smart Goal (R2/DBU) in 2023 - 2024 from TF Ho to others. (2) Cheung (Rl/DBU) set out Smart Goal (R2/DBU)'s corporate structure and mentions his acquisition of Smart Goal (R2/DBU) in WhatsApp groups, the names of which are referrable to the "Dream Building" (J~.11.) brand: (a) "Sure win. Dream Building Party" (!j'ij~::fij93', &~Jij~ltt); (b) "Tiger and wolf. Dream Building Party" (J}~Jl~zgm S ~Jij~M;)"). 57

131 (3) Suki Chow (Rl 1/DBU) assisted Cheung (Rl/DBU) with his business at the "Dream Building" (JfUI) office. ( 4) Cheung (Rl/DBU) arranged for Lermond Development (R3/DBU) to make payments for the acquisition of Smart Goal (R2/DBU). (5) Smart Goal (R2/DBU) would sub-contract building maintenance works to Lermond Development (R3/DBU) and accordingly pay Lermond Development (R3/DBU). (6) Lermond Development (R3/DBU) and/or Dream Building Construction (R4/DBU) would provide tender prices to one or more of Cheung Lee (R5), Ngai Lam (R6), Wang Yat (R7), Wai Yip (R8) and Chun Hung (R9), for the latter to submit bids to tender(s) (including but not limited to the Tenders), with the intention that works would be sub-contracted to Lermond Development (R3/DBU) and/or Dream Building Construction (R4/DBU). Personnel providing such tender prices on behalf of Lermond Development (R3/DBU) and/or Dream Building Construction (R4/DBU) did so in the capacity as a "Dream Building" staff. (7) Their registered offices are all located on 26/F Billion Centre. (a) According to Cheung (Rl/DBU), a headquarters will be set up at 26/F Billion Centre, with a liaison department specifically representing him to contact companies in the industry to automatically "blow the whistle" and coordinate. ("26 fl, TI~tt ~i~m, ~F~1fJt~tt~ti6tr~0PJfr, 13 tn°~ittht7~ "). (b) In the same series of text messages, Cheung (Rl/DBU) stated that he was now confident to challenge the 25% market share threshold, that in the past, the contract sums were large but the volume was low, and in the future, their volume will be multiple ten-folds of that 58

132 today. ("ffJJU±, Jlt1"1~{g1Ci\, rJtil 25%$:i:JMr!i~$, 1ffmft'fr,i~ niitk ;&, **tt1r,s"1I:, ~tt~J(~~+{~, {gft"). (8) Janelle Lai, an employee of Dream Building Construction (R4/DBU) (or at the very least, a company under the "Dream Building" brand), worked for Cheung (Rl/DBU) in handling "homework" (see paragraph 103(1 )(b) above). (9) The Dream Building Undertaking acted via, inter alia, Cheung (RI/DBU), KK Chan (RIO/DBU), Suki Chow (RI 1/DBU), Hugo Lee (RI2/DBU), Marvin Siu (Rl3/DBU) and MK Wong (R14/DBU). (10) The Commission reserves the right to amend this ONA and/or provide further particulars in respect of the DBU, as a single economic unit, comprising Smart Goal (R2/DBU), Lermond Development (R3/DBU) and Dream Building Construction (R4/DBU), upon completion of discovery and/or administration of interrogatories (if so advised). 146. By reason of the matters pleaded herein: ( 1) In respect of the DBU: (a) There is sufficient connection between the aforesaid acts of KK Chan (RI0/DBU), Suki Chow (RI 1/DBU), Hugo Lee (R12/DBU), Marvin Siu (Rl3/DBU) and MK Wong (R14/DBU) (as well as Janelle Lai) with the DBU; (b) These individuals held out as representing (and/or represented) the DBU, and/or ( c) The DBU has engaged in the economic activities pleaded above through these individuals and is answerable for the manner in which these individuals conducted themselves. 59

133 (2) In respect of each of Cheung Lee (RS), Ngai Lam (R6), Wang Yat (R7) Wai Yip (R8) and/or Chun Hung (R9): (a) There is sufficient connection between the aforesaid acts ofWS Lau (Rl5/Cheung Lee), SWNgai (Rl6/Ngai Lam), KC Lai (Rl7/Wang Yat), Yuki Chan (Rl8/Wai Yip) and WH Li (R20/Chun Hung) with Cheung Lee (R5), Ngai Lam (R6), Wang Yat (R7) Wai Yip (R8) and/or Chun Hung (R9) (as the case may be); (b) These aforesaid individuals held out as representing (and/or represented) Cheung Lee (R5), Ngai Lam (R6), Wang Yat (R7) Wai Yip (R8) and Chun Hung (R9) (as the case may be); and/or (c) Cheung Lee (R5), Ngai Lam (R6), Wang Yat (R7) Wai Yip (R8) and/or Chun Hung (R9) has engaged in the economic activities pleaded above through the aforesaid individuals and are respectively answerable for the manner in which these individuals conducted themselves. C4(b) Subject Arrangement constitutes a Serious Anti-Competitive Conduct 147. For the same reasons as set out above, the Subject Arrangement is a price-fixing agreement and/or a market-sharing agreement which constitutes SAC within the meaning of s.2(1) of the Ordinance, as well as a bid-rigging arrangement which constitutes an SAC within the meaning of s.2( 1) and s.2(2)(b) of the Ordinance. 148. Conversely, there is no factual or legal basis for the Commission to have a reasonable cause to believe that, for the purposes of s.82(1) of the Ordinance, the Subject Arrangement does not involve SAC. 149. For the avoidance of doubt: ( 1) Whether certain conduct is SAC does not affect the meaning of, or question of whether the conduct infringed, the FCR; the purpose of introducing the 60

134 statutorily defined concept of SAC is procedural in nature for the purposes of s.82 of the Ordinance (regarding warning notices): Competition Commission v Nutanix & Ors [2019] HKCT 2; [2019] 3 HKC 307 at §§448-449. (2) The correct approach in construing the statutory definition of SAC is to construe it widely, insofar as the statutory wording permits, having regard to (a) the procedural nature of the concept of SAC and (b) legislative intention for the concept of SAC to cover hard-core activities (including price-fixing, market allocation and bid-rigging) which are widely recognized in, inter alia, the European and English competition law as anti- competitive activities that will always have an adverse impact on competition. See Competition Commission v Nutanix & Ors [2019] HKCT 2; [2019] 3 HKC 307 at §§448-449, 468-469, 471; see also Bills Committee on Competition Bill (LC Paper No. CB(l)l 919/11-12) (Ref: CBl/BC/12/09) at §§25, 32. (3) To this extent, while the assessment of SAC is a distinct exercise from that of determining whether there is a contravention of the FCR, the same analytical approach should be adopted as long as the wording of the Ordinance would not render such a construction impossible in any particular case. CS. Involvement of the Pt, 10th to 20th (except 19th) Respondents in the Contravention(s); Case against the 19th Respondent CS(a) Involvement of Cheung (Rl/DBU) 150. By reason of his involvement in the relevant Contravention(s), Cheung (Rl/DBU) is directly or indirectly knowingly concerned in the contravention of the FCR. 151. As pleaded above, Cheung (Rl/DBU) is the de facto controller of the Dream Building Undertaking. Because of this, and by reason also of the matters pleaded above (including Smart Goal (R2/DBU)'s participation in each of the Tenders in 61

135 circumstances described above), Cheung (Rl/DBU) had, in respect of each of the Tenders, actual knowledge of the Subject Arrangement, contributed to the relevant Contravention(s) or alternatively took no steps to prevent it. He was, therefore, directly or indirectly knowingly concerned in the relevant Contravention(s). 152. Without prejudice to the generality of the foregoing, Cheung (Rl/DBU) was also directly involved in respect of the Tsui Lam Tender in disseminating "homework". 153. The Commission reserves the right to amend this ONA and/or provide further particulars in respect of the involvement of Cheung (Rl/DBU) upon completion of discovery and/or administration of interrogatories (if so advised). 154. Further, in the event the Tribunal determines that the Dream Building Undertaking ( or any of Smart Goal (R2/DBU), Lermond Development (R3/DBU) and Dream Building Construction (R4/DBU)) has contravened the FCR, it is averred that the conduct of Cheung (Rl/DBU) (as a "director" of any and each of Smart Goal (R2/DBU), Lermond Development (R3/DBU) and Dream Building Construction (R4/DBU)) as pleaded makes him unfit to be concerned in the management of a company. 155. The Commission therefore also seeks a disqualification order against Cheung (Rl/DBU) pursuant to ss.101 and 102 of the Ordinance for such period (not exceeding 5 years) as the Tribunal deems fit. CS(b) Involvement of KK Chan (RlO/DBU) 156. By reason of his involvement in the relevant Contravention(s), KK Chan (Rl 0/DBU) is directly or indirectly knowingly concerned in the contravention of the FCR (as per s.91(d) of the Ordinance). Alternatively, he aided, abetted, counselled and/or procured the contravention by DBU and each of Cheung Lee (R5), Ngai Lam (R6) and Wang Yat (R7), Wai Yip (R8) and Chun Hung (R9) (as the case may be for each Tender set out in paragraph 157 below) (as per s.9l(b) of the Ordinance). 62

136 157. According to the corporate structure of Smart Goal (R2/DBU) set out by Cheung (Rl/DBU), KK Chan (Rl0/DBU) was mainly in charge of calculating tenders, submitting tenders and attending tender interviews (.±.JJ§ffj@JtjJUj). Further, as pleaded above, KK Chan (RlO/DBU) facilitated and/or was directly or indirectly involved in the dissemination of "homework" in respect of the (a) Tsui Lam Tender; (b) Tak Shun Tender; (c) Neptune Terrace Tender; (d) Kwai Fung Tender; (e) Victory Garden Tender; (f) Tai Ping Tender; and (g) Wang Fuk Tender. 158. The Commission reserves the right to amend this ONA and/or provide further particulars in respect of the involvement ofKK Chan (Rl0/DBU) upon completion of discovery and/or administration of interrogatories (if so advised). 159. In the premises, in each of the Tenders (this being the Commission's primary case) or alternatively in respect of each of the aforesaid Tenders set out in paragraph 157 above (this being the Commission's alternative case), KK Chan (RlO/DBU) had actual knowledge of the Subject Arrangement, contributed to and/or facilitated the relevant Contravention(s) or alternatively took no steps to prevent it. CS(c) Involvement of Suki Chow (Rll/DBU) 160. By reason of her involvement in the relevant Contravention(s), Suki Chow (RI 1/DBU) is directly or indirectly knowingly concerned in the contravention of the FCR (as per s.9l(d) of the Ordinance). Alternatively, she aided, abetted, counselled and/or procured the contravention by DBU and each of Cheung Lee (R5), Ngai Lam (R6), Wang Yat (R7), Wai Yip (R8) and Chun Hung (R9) (as the case may be for each Tender set out in paragraph 161 below) (as per s.9l(b) of the Ordinance). 161. As pleaded above, Suki Chow (Rl 1/DBU) facilitated and/or was directly or indirectly involved in the dissemination of"homework" in respect of the Alhambra Tender. 63

137 162. The Commission reserves the right to amend this ONA and/or provide further particulars in respect of the involvement of Suki Chow (Rl 1/DBU) upon completion of discovery and/or administration of interrogatories (if so advised). 163. In the premises, in respect of the aforesaid Tender, Suki Chow (Rl 1/DBU) had actual knowledge of the Subject Arrangement, contributed to and/or facilitated the relevant Contravention(s) or alternatively took no steps to prevent it. C5(d) Involvement of Hugo Lee (Rl2/DBU) 164. By reason of his involvement in the relevant Contravention(s), Hugo Lee (Rl2/DBU) is directly or indirectly knowingly concerned in the contravention of the FCR (as per s.9l(d) of the Ordinance). Alternatively, he aided, abetted, counselled and/or procured the contravention by DBU and each of Cheung Lee (R5), Ngai Lam (R6), Wang Yat (R7), Wai Yip (R8) and Chun Hung (R9) (as the case may be for each Tender set out in paragraph 165 below) (as per s.9l(b) of the Ordinance). 165. As pleaded above, Hugo Lee (R12/DBU) facilitated and/or was directly or indirectly involved in the dissemination of "homework" in respect of the (a) Yen Che Tender; (b) Chung Sing Tender; and (c) Yiu Wa Tender. 166. The Commission reserves the right to amend this ONA and/or provide further particulars in respect of the involvement of Hugo Lee (R12/DBU) upon completion of discovery and/or administration of interrogatories (if so advised). 167. In the premises, in respect of each of the aforesaid Tenders, Hugo Lee (R12/DBU) had actual knowledge of the Subject Arrangement, contributed to and/or facilitated the relevant Contravention(s) or alternatively took no steps to prevent it. C5(e) Involvement of Marvin Siu (R13/DBU) 168. By reason of his involvement in the relevant Contravention(s), Marvin Siu (R13/DBU) is directly or indirectly knowingly concerned in the contravention of 64

138 the FCR (as per s.91(d) of the Ordinance). Alternatively, he aided, abetted, counselled and/or procured the contravention by DBU and each of Cheung Lee (RS), Ngai Lam (R6), Wang Yat (R7), Wai Yip (R8) and Chun Hung (R9) (as the case may be for each Tender set out in paragraph 169 below) (as per s.91(b) of the Ordinance). 169. As pleaded above, Marvin Siu (R13/DBU) facilitated and/or was directly or indirectly involved in the dissemination of "homework" in respect of the Wang Fuk Tender, and was involved in requesting and receiving requisite documents from Ngai Lam (R6) via a OneDrive link titled "Chung Sing Building", so that Marvin Siu (R13/DBU) could submit tender for Ngai Lam (R6) in respect of the Chung Sing Tender. 170. The Commission reserves the right to amend this ONA and/or provide further particulars in respect of the involvement of Marvin Siu (R13/DBU) upon completion of discovery and/or administration of interrogatories (if so advised). 171. In the premises, in respect of each of the aforesaid Tenders, Marvin Siu (RI 3/DBU) had actual knowledge of the Subject Arrangement, contributed to and/or facilitated the relevant Contravention(s) or alternatively took no steps to prevent it. C5(f) Involvement of MK Wong (Rl4/DBU) 172. By reason of his involvement in the relevant Contravention(s), MK Wong (RI 4/DBU) is directly or indirectly knowingly concerned in the contravention of the FCR (as per s.9l(d) of the Ordinance). Alternatively, he aided, abetted, counselled and/or procured the contravention by DBU and each of Cheung Lee (RS), Ngai Lam (R6), Wang Yat (R7), Wai Yip (R8) and Chun Hung (R9) (as the case may be for each Tender set out in paragraph 173 below) (as per s.9l(b) of the Ordinance). 173. As pleaded above, MK Wong (Rl4/DBU) facilitated and/or was directly or indirectly involved in the dissemination of "homework'' in respect of the Kwai 65

139 Fung Tender, and was involved in initiating the Subject Arrangement between DBU and Cheung Lee (R5) in respect of the Tak Shun Tender and assisting Cheung Lee (R5) to make the relevant submission. 174. The Commission reserves the right to amend this ONA and/or provide further particulars in respect of the involvement of MK Wong (Rl4/DBU) upon completion of discovery and/or administration of interrogatories (if so advised). 175. In the premises, in respect of each of the aforesaid Tenders, MK Wong (Rl4/DBU) had actual knowledge of the Subject Arrangement, contributed to and/or facilitated the relevant Contravention(s) or alternatively took no steps to prevent it. CS(g) Involvement of WS Lau (R15/Cheung Lee) 176. Insofar as Cheung Lee (R5) is held to have contravened the FCR, by reason of his role as the project manager of Cheung Lee (R5) since 2012, WS Lau (R15/Cheung Lee) is directly or indirectly knowingly concerned in Cheung Lee (R5)' s contravention of the FCR as pleaded above (as per s.9l(d) of the Ordinance). Alternatively, he aided, abetted, counselled and/or procured the contravention by DBU and Cheung Lee (R5) as pleaded above (as per s.9l(b) of the Ordinance). 177. In addition, WS Lau (R15/Cheung Lee) was involved in all 11 Tenders in the manner pleaded above. 178. The Commission reserves the right to amend this ONA and/or provide further particulars in respect of the involvement of WS Lau (Rl5/Cheung Lee) upon completion of discovery and/or administration of interrogatories (if so advised). 179. In the premises, in respect of each of the Tenders whereby Cheung Lee (R5) contravened the FCR, and in respect of all the Tenders in which WS Lau (Rl5/Cheung Lee) was involved as pleaded above, WS Lau (Rl5/Cheung Lee) had actual knowledge of the Subject Arrangement, contributed to and/or facilitated the relevant Contravention(s) or alternatively took no steps to prevent it. 66

140 C5(h) Involvement of SW Ngai (R16/Ngai Lam) 180. Insofar as Ngai Lam (R6) is held to have contravened the FCR, by reason of his role as the sole director and sole shareholder of Ngai Lam (R6) (at all material times prior to 25 October 2024), SW Ngai (Rl 6/Ngai Lam) is directly or indirectly knowingly concerned in Ngai Lam (R6)'s contravention of the FCR as pleaded above (as per s.9l(d) of the Ordinance). Alternatively, he aided, abetted, counselled and/or procured the contravention by DBU and Ngai Lam (R6) as pleaded above (as per s.91(b) of the Ordinance). 181. In addition, SW Ngai (R16/Ngai Lam) was involved in the (a) Kwai Fung Tender; (b) Chung Sing Tender and (c) Wang Fuk Tender in the manner pleaded above. 182. The Commission reserves the right to amend this ONA and/or provide further particulars in respect of the involvement of SW Ngai (Rl6/Ngai Lam) upon completion of discovery and/or administration of interrogatories (if so advised). 183. In the premises, in respect of each of the Tenders whereby Ngai Lam (R6) contravened the FCR, and in respect of the aforesaid Tenders pleaded in paragraph 181 above, SW Ngai (Rl6/Ngai Lam) had actual knowledge of the Subject Arrangement, contributed to and/or facilitated the relevant Contravention(s) or alternatively took no steps to prevent it. 184. Further, in the event the Tribunal detennines that Ngai Lam (R6) has contravened the FCR, it is averred that the conduct of SW Ngai (Rl6/Ngai Lam) (as a director ofNgai Lam (R6)) as pleaded makes him unfit to be concerned in the management of a company. 185. The Commission therefore also seeks a disqualification order against SW Ngai (RI 6/Ngai Lam) pursuant to ss. l O 1 and 102 of the Ordinance for such period (not exceeding 5 years) as the Tribunal deems fit. 67

141 CS(i) Involvement of KC Lai (Rl 7 /Wang Y at) 186. Insofar as Wang Yat (R7) is held to have contravened the FCR, by reason of his role as the general manager (and thus additionally a "director"74) of Wang Yat (R 7) and his responsibility for all matters relating to Wang Y at (R 7)' s tender submissions, KC Lai (Rl7/Wang Yat) is directly or indirectly knowingly concerned in Wang Y at (R 7) 's contravention of the FCR as pleaded above ( as per s.9l(d) of the Ordinance). Alternatively, he aided, abetted, counselled and/or procured the contravention by DBU and Wang Yat (R7) as pleaded above (as per s.9l(b) of the Ordinance). 187. In addition, KC Lai (Rl 7/Wang Yat) was involved in the Victory Garden Tender and the Wang Fuk Tender in the manner pleaded above. 188. The Commission reserves the right to amend this ONA and/or provide further particulars in respect of the involvement of KC Lai (Rl 7/Wang Yat) upon completion of discovery and/or administration of interrogatories (if so advised). 189. In the premises, in respect of each of the Tenders whereby Wang Yat (R7) contravened the FCR, and in respect of the Wang Fuk Tender as pleaded above, KC Lai (Rl 7/Wang Yat) had actual knowledge of the Subject Arrangement, contributed to and/or facilitated the relevant Contravention(s) or alternatively took no steps to prevent it. 190. Further, in the event the Tribunal determines that Wang Yat (R7) has contravened the FCR, it is averred that the conduct of KC Lai (Rl 7/Wang Yat) (as a "director"75 of Wang Yat (R7)) as pleaded makes him unfit to be concerned in the management of a company. 74 Per the definition of "director" under s.2( 1) of the Ordinance. 75 Per the definition of ''director" under s.2(1) of the Ordinance. 68

142 191. The Commission therefore also seeks a disqualification order against KC Lai (Rl7/Wang Yat) pursuant to ss.101 and 102 of the Ordinance for such period (not exceeding 5 years) as the Tribunal deems fit. CS(j) Involvement of Yuki Chan (Rl8/Wai Yip) 192. Insofar as Wai Yip (RS) is held to have contravened the FCR, by reason of her role as the administrative manager (and thus additionally a "director "76) of Wai Yip (RS) as pleaded above, Yuki Chan (R18/Wai Yip) is directly or indirectly knowingly concerned in Wai Yip (R8)'s contravention of the FCR as pleaded above (as per s.91(d) of the Ordinance). Alternatively, she aided, abetted, counselled and/or procured the contravention by DBU and Wai Yip (R8) as pleaded above (as per s.91(b) of the Ordinance). 193. In addition, Yuki Chan (R18/Wai Yip) was involved in the Tsui Lam Tender in the manner pleaded above. 194. The Commission reserves the right to amend this ONA and/or provide further particulars in respect of the involvement of Yuki Chan (R l S/Wai Yip) upon completion of discovery and/or administration of interrogatories (if so advised). 195. In the premises, in respect of the Tsui Lam Tender whereby Wai Yip (R8) contravened the FCR, Yuki Chan (RlS/Wai Yip) had actual knowledge of the Subject Arrangement, contributed to and/or facilitated the relevant Contravention or alternatively took no steps to prevent it. 196. Further, in the event the Tribunal determines that Wai Yip (R8) has contravened the FCR, it is averred that the conduct of Yuki Chan (RlS/Wai Yip) (as a "director"77 of Wai Yip (R8)) as pleaded makes her unfit to be concerned in the management of a company. 76 Per the definition of"director>' under s.2(1) of the Ordinance. 77 Per the definition of "director" under s.2(1) of the Ordinance. 69

143 197. The Commission therefore also seeks a disqualification order against Yuki Chan (Rl8/Wai Yip) pursuant to ss.101 and 102 of the Ordinance for such period (not exceeding 5 years) as the Tribunal deems fit. CS(k) HF Chan (R19/Wai Yip) 198. At all material times, HF Chan (R19/Wai Yip) is a director of Wai Yip (R8). 199. In the event the Tribunal determines that Wai Yip (R8) has contravened the FCR above, the Commission further seeks relief under the Ordinance against HF Chan (R19/Wai Yip) for a disqualification order pursuant to s.101 of the Ordinance as (I) He is a director of a company that has contravened a competition rule; 78 and (2) His conduct as a director makes him unfit to be concerned m the management of a company. 79 200. Further to paragraph 199(2) above, HF Chan (R19/Wai Yip) was fully responsible for tender pricing. In circumstances where Wai Yip (R8) is determined to have contravened the FCR in respect of Tsui Lam Tender, HF Chan (Rl9/Wai Yip) turned a blind eye and/or knew or ought to have known about Wai Yip (R8)'s Contravention, it is averred that the conduct of HF Chan (RI 9/Wai Yip) as pleaded makes him unfit to be concerned in the management of a company. 201. The Commission therefore also seeks a disqualification order against HF Chan (Rl9/Wai Yip) pursuant to ss.101 and 102 of the Ordinance for such period (not exceeding 5 years) as the Tribunal deems fit. 78 See requirement ins. l 02(a) of the Ordinance. 79 See requirement in s. I 02(b) and s. l 03 of the Ordinance. 70

144 CS(l) Involvement of WH Li (R20/Chun Hung) 202. Insofar as Chun Hung (R9) is held to have contravened the FCR, by reason of his role as the sole director and sole shareholder of Chun Hung (R9), WH Li (R20/Chun Hung) is directly or indirectly knowingly concerned in Chun Hung (R9)'s contravention of the FCR as pleaded above (as per s.9l(d) of the Ordinance). Alternatively, he aided, abetted, counselled and/or procured the contravention by DBU and Chun Hung (R9) as pleaded above (as per s.9l(b) of the Ordinance). 203. The Commission reserves the right to amend this ONA and/or provide further particulars in respect of the involvement of WH Li (R20/Chun Hung) upon completion of discovery and/or administration of interrogatories (if so advised). 204. In the premises, in respect of Neptune Terrace Tender whereby Chun Hung (R9) contravened the FCR, WH Li (R20/Chun Hung) had actual knowledge of the Subject Arrangement, contributed to and/or facilitated the relevant Contravention or alternatively took no steps to prevent it. 205. Further, in the event the Tribunal determines that Chun Hung (R9) has contravened the FCR, it is averred that the conduct of WH Li (R20/Chun Hung) (as a director of Chun Hung (R9)) as pleaded makes him unfit to be concerned in the management of a company. 206. The Commission therefore also seeks a disqualification order against WH Li (R20/Chun Hung) pursuant to ss.101 and 102 of the Ordinance for such period (not exceeding 5 years) as the Tribunal deems fit. D. THE RELIEF SOUGHT 207. Based on the facts and matters set out above, the Commission has reasonable cause to believe that the contravention of the FCR by the 2nd to 9th Respondents involves SAC such that the Commission is not required to issue a Warning Notice before bringing the present enforcement action. 71

145 208. The Commission seeks the following relief under the Ordinance: (1) As against the 2nd to 9th Respondents: (a) a declaration under s.94(1) of, and/or,paragraph l(a) of Schedule 3 to, the Ordinance that each of the 2nd to 9th Respondents has contravened the FCR; (b) an order under s.93(1) of the Ordinance that, in respect of each Contravention, (i) the 2nd to 4th Respondents shall jointly and severally; and (ii) each of the 5th to 9th Respondents (as the case may be for each Contravention in respect of each Tender as pleaded above) shall, pay to the Government a pecuniary penalty in such amount as the Tribunal considers appropriate; and (c) an order under s.96(1) of the Ordinance that the 2nd to 9th Respondents shall jointly and severally pay to the Government an amount equal to the reasonably incurred costs of and incidental to the Commission's investigation into their respective conduct or affairs, to be assessed; (2) As against the 3rd to 9th Respondents: (a) an order under s.94(1) of, and/or paragraph l(c) of Schedule 3 to, the Ordinance requiring each of the 3rd to 9th Respondents to adopt and to implement, to the reasonable satisfaction of the Commission, an effective competition compliance programme in such time period and manner as the Tribunal shall determine; (3) As against the 15\ 10th to 20th Respondents (except the 19th Respondent): (a) a declaration under s.94(1) of the Ordinance that he or she has been involved in a contravention of the FCR; and 72

146 (b) an order under s.93(1) of the Ordinance that he or she shall pay to the Government a pecuniary penalty in such amount as the Tribunal considers appropriate; ( 4) As against the 151, 16th to 20th Respondents, a disqualification order under s.101(1) of the Ordinance; (5) As against each of the Respondents: ( a) orders pursuant to the Tribunal's jurisdiction under s.144(1) of the Ordinance that each shall pay the Commission's costs of and incidental to this Application, to be assessed; and (b) such further or other relief as the Tribunal considers appropriate. 209. In connection with the pecuniary penalties and disqualification orders sought against the Respondents, in formulating its recommendations to the Tribunal on the appropriate amounts of pecuniary penalties as well as the period of disqualification, without prejudice to the Commission's right to refer to further circumstances, the Commission will likely have regard to, amongst others, the following aggravating circumstances (as particularized in paragraph 29 above): (1) the Subject Arrangement is widespread, systematic and/or prevalent; (2) the Subject Arrangement involved repeated false representations being made through the NCTCs which are plainly designed to advance public interest in preventing competition contraventions and protect the tendering party;and (3) the Subject Arrangement is operated by a syndicate and/or highly sophisticated, with an objective to secure a significant market share in the industry. 73

147 210. The Commission reserves the right to amend this ONA and/or provide further particulars upon discovery and/or administration of interrogatories. Dated this 25th day of March 2026 74 ABRAHAM CHAN SC BYRON CHIU Counsel for the Applicant KING & WOOD MALLESONS Solicitors for the Applicant

148 STATEMENT OF TRUTH The Applicant believes the facts stated in this Originating Notice of Application are true. I, Au Wai Leok, Head (Investigations III), am duly authorised to sign this statement on behalf of the Applicant. Position: Head (Investigations III) Date: 2'; March 2026 75

149 Name and address of the solicitors for the Applicant in Hong Kong for service: King & Wood Mallesons, 13/F Gloucester Tower, The Landmark, 15 Queen's Road Central, Central, Hong Kong. (Ref: EW/SKH:800-0034018) To: The Registrar, Competition Tribunal 38 Queensway, Hong Kong and Cheung Kwing Kuen (~f~ff), the 1st Respondent, and Smart Goal Construction Engineering Limited ({~~~~I fj ~ ~~ 0 P}) (In Liquidation), the 2nd Respondent, Flat/ Rm A-D of 26/F, Block B, Billion Centre, 1 Wang Kwong Road, Kowloon Bay, Kowloon, Hong Kong; c/o Cheung Hok Hin, Alan and Suen Fuk Yuen, Bernie of Wing United CPA Limited, the Joint and Several Liquidators of the 2nd Respondent, Suite 708, 7/F., Greenfield Tower, Concordia Plaza, 1 Science Museum Road, Tsim Sha Tsui, Kowloon, Hong Kong and Lermond Development Group Limited ( :flj ~EU~~~ ~ ~~ 0 P} ), the 3rd Respondent, Unit A, 26/F, Block B, Billion Centre, I Wang Kwong Road, Kowloon Bay, Kowloon, Hong Kong and 76

150 Dream Building Construction Engineering Limited (J.f4'.l'.}t~.Ifi%~&0 "§'J), the 4th Respondent, Unit D, 26/F, Block B, Billion Centre, 1 Wang Kwong Road, Kowloon Bay, Kowloon, Hong Kong and Lau Sek Cheung (Jijj~lj[) (trading as Cheung Lee Construction Co (l¥fU}t~0 o])), the 5th Respondent, Flat/Room H, 16/F, Wing Hong Factory Building, 18-26 Kwai Fung Crescent, Kwai Chung, New Territories, Hong Kong and Ngai Lam Building Construction Co. Limited (@f,f}tm.Ifi%~&0 o]), the 6th Respondent, Room 816, 8/F., Peninsula Centre, 67 Mody Road, Tsim Sha Tsui, Kowloon, Hong Kong and Wang Yat Construction Limited (:$).:fuig:m.Ifi%~N0o.J), the 7th Respondent, Unit D, 3/F, Freder Centre, 62-68 Sung Wong Toi Road, To Kwa Wan, Hong Kong and Wai Yip Development Construction Limited (Jf~j}-)&}t~%~N0"§'J), the 8th Respondent, Room 312, 3/F, Brill Plaza, 82-84 To Kwa Wan Road, To Kwa Wan, Kowloon, Hong Kong and Chun Hung Construction & Engineering Limited (trf>J,~.Iff %~&0 o]), the 9th Respondent, Room 06, 10/F, International Plaza, 20 Sheung Yuet Road, Kowloon Bay, Kowloon, Hong Kong 77

151 and Chan Kin Keung (~J!:[f~)~), the 10th Respondent and Chow Shuk Ha (JsJ>fJff), the 11 th Respondent, and Lee Wai Hung C*fl:fz;!), the 12th Respondent and Siu Wing Hong (ffifik~), the 13th Responden and Wong Ming Keung (~BJH~), the 14th Respondent and Lau Wing Sum (iU7J<.~), the 15th Respondent, and 78

152 Ngai Sang Wong (B_I), the 16th Respondent and Lai Kam Chuen (~ii~), the 17th Respondent and Chan Ka Yuk (~I), the 18th Respondent and Chan Heung Fat (~fU[Pjjj), the 19th Respondent and Li Wai Hung (l:{f;fz;!), the 20th Respondent Issued from the Registry of the Competition Tribunal this 25th day of March 2026. Note: This Notice may not be served later than 6 months beginning with the above date unless its validity is extended by the Competition Tribunal. Registrar 79

153 Version for A, RI to R20 and the public CTEA / / 2026 IN THE HIGH COURT OF THE HONG KONG SPECIAL ADMINISTRATIVE REGION COMPETITION TRIBUNAL ENFORCEMENT ACTION NO. / OF 2026 BETWEEN COMPETITION COMMISSION and CHEUNG KWING KUEN (5tHfciJtf) SMART GOAL CONSTRUCTION ENGINEERING LIMITED ({~fi~ ~Ifi&0P]) (IN LIQUIDATION) LERMOND DEVELOPMENT GROUP LIMITED (5flj ~ilJ~mllJ~ ~&0P]) DREAM BUILDING CONSTRUCTION ENGINEERING LIMITED (rn~Ifi&0 P]) LAU SEK CHEUNG (iUffl~) (trading as CHEUNG LEE CONSTRUCTION CO Ct¥5f1J0 P])) NGAI LAM BUILDING CONSTRUCTION CO LIMITED (~ f*}tIfi~~&0 P]) WANG Y AT CONSTRUCTION LIMITED (mifi&0 P]) WAI YIP DEVELOPMENT CONSTRUCTION LIMITED (ft~ 3j~~~~~&0 P]) CHUN HUNG CONSTRUCTION & ENGINEERING LIMITED (fti~I fi1§~&0 P_]) CHAN KIN KEUNG (~f~5j) CHOW SHUK HA (}Bj§) LEE WAI HUNG (.:$:{fit) SIU WING HONG (Jij}:~) WONG MING KEUNG (5~) Applicant 1st Respondent 2nd Respondent 3rd Respondent 4th Respondent 5th Respondent 6th Respondent 7th Respondent 8th Respondent 9th Respondent 10th Respondent 11 th Respondent 12th Respondent 13th Respondent 14 111 Respondent

154 LAU WING SUM (iU71<-~) NGAI SANG WONG (~§::BJ:) LAI KAM CHUEN (~jffj~) CHAN KA YUK (~J~-=Is.) CHAN HEUNG FAT (~JD[o]!}) LI WAI HUNG (-~{f;tz;t) 151h Respondent 16th Respondent 17th Respondent 18th Respondent 191h Respondent 201h Respondent ORIGINATING NOTICE OF APPLICATION Dated the 25th day of March 2026 Filed on the 25th day of March 2026 KING & WOOD MALLESONS Solicitors for the Applicant 13th Floor, Gloucester Tower The Landmark 15 Queen's Road Central, Hong Kong Tel: 3443 1000 Fax: 3443 1299 Ref: EW/SKH:800-0034018 PT

FD06234 | 2025_港澳台_香港宏福苑大火_CC-press-release-(Chi).pdf

分类:06_境外及港澳台调查报告 | 年份:2025 | 地域:香港 | 严重程度: | 场所: | 起火原因: | 来源格式:pdf

桗㳭涁䦷☏涁䦷☏弑 唝6RXWK,VODQG3ODFH 㣑 )6RXWK,VODQG3ODFH:RQJ&KXN+DQJ5RDG :RQJ&KXN+DQJ+21.21 7) :HEVLWHZZZFRPSFRPPKN 2026 ⸜3 㚰25 㖍 ⌛㗪䘤ⶫ

䪞䇕ḳ⊁⥼⒉㚫⯙㦻⬯䵕ᾖ⎰媨㟰ẞℍ䧇䪞䇕ḳ⊁⮑塩嗽 㴱ℐ㷗11 ⯳剹⍲⣏⹰ġ ⎰䲬䷥ῤ䲬7 €㷗⃫

䪞䇕ḳ⊁⥼⒉㚫炷䪞⥼㚫炸Ṳ㖍ℍ䧇䪞䇕ḳ⊁⮑塩嗽炷⮑塩嗽炸炻⎹6攻㤕⊁⮎橼⍲12⎵Ṣ ⢓⯽攳㱽⼳䦳⸷ˤṾᾹ㗗烉

㴱㟰㤕⊁⮎橼 㴱㟰Ṣ⢓1

  1. ὲ尒⺢䭱ⶍ䦳㚱旸℔⎠2炷ὲ尒炸;

⇑㮹∝⺢普⛀㚱旸℔⎠炷⇑㮹∝⺢炸; ⍲ 枪寸⺢䭱ⶍ䦳㚱旸℔⎠炷枪寸⺢䭱炸 炷䴙䧙枪寸炸

  1. 䤍⇑⺢䭱℔⎠

炷䤍⇑炻䓙∱拓䪈⃰ 䓇䌐屯䴻䆇炸

  1. 喅㜿⺢䭱ⶍ䦳㚱旸℔⎠炷喅㜿炸
  2. ⬷㹊䆇忈ⶍ䦳㚱旸℔⎠炷⬷㹊炸
  3. 䏳㤕䘤⯽⺢䭱㚱旸℔⎠炷䏳㤕炸
  4. 䪋泣ⶍ䦳㚱旸℔⎠炷䪋泣炸
  5. ⻝䂙㪲⃰

䓇

  1. 昛‍⻟⃰

䓇

  1. ␐㵹曆⤛⢓
  2. 㛶῱晬⃰

䓇

  1. 唕㯠⹟⃰

䓇

  1. 湫㖶⻟⃰

䓇

  1. ∱㯠㢖⃰

䓇

  1. 櫷䓇㖢⃰

䓇

  1. 湶拎ℐ⃰

䓇

  1. 昛▱䌱⤛⢓
  2. 昛⑵䘤⃰

䓇

  1. 㛶῱晬⃰

䓇

㛔㟰㴱⍲ᶨᾳ㦻⬯䵕ᾖⶍ䦳⚵㧁普⛀炻㕤2022 ⸜ 4 㚰军 2023 ⸜ 9 㚰炻⛐军⮹11 ᾳ⯳剹⍲ ⣏⹰ 3䘬䵕ᾖⶍ䦳㊃㧁㛇攻炻㴱⩴⽆ḳ忽⍵˪䪞䇕㡅ἳ˫炷˪㡅ἳ˫炸䘬埴䁢ˤ䚠斄ⶍ䦳↮ ⶫ㷗ˣḅˣ㕘䓴ℙ8 ᾳ⛘⋨炻⎰䲬䷥ῤ4⎰ℙ役7 €㷗⃫ ˤ

䪞⥼㚫℔ⶫ䘬㟰ね㊯↢炻娚⚵㧁普⛀䓙⣂ᾳⶍ䦳㈧彎⓮⍲ᷕ 攻Ṣ䳬ㆸ炻普⛀ᷣ 儎㚫⃰ 䈑刚䚖 㧁ⶍ䦳枭䚖炻᷎ 怠⭂普⛀ℏ℞Ṿ㈧彎⓮ 5 ℍ㧁ˤ忁ṃ㈧彎⓮㚫䌚⬱㌺㑼ảˬᷣ 奺˭炷⌛普⛀ 䘬枸姕ᷕ 㧁侭炸ㆾˬ⸓ㇳ˭炷屈屔㍸ὃ㍑嬟⺷㈽㧁炸炻ℵ䓙ᷣ 儎奒冒ㆾ㊯㳦℞Ṿᷕ 攻Ṣ䁢⬫ Ᾱ㸾⁁⍲炾ㆾ↮䘤ℍ㧁₡㟤㊯䣢炷ẍˬ≇婚˭ἄ䁢㘿嘇炸ˤ㑼䔞ˬ⸓ㇳ˭䘬㈧彎⓮㚫ὅ⽆ㆾ ⍫䄏ℐ悐ㆾ悐↮₡㟤㊯䣢炻᷎ ㍸Ṍ㧁㚠炻⽆侴⋼≑ˬᷣ 奺˭ᷕ 㧁ˤ

䪞⥼㚫㚱⎰䎮⚈䓙䚠ᾉ炻㚱斄埴䁢㥳ㆸⰔ♜慵⍵䪞䇕埴䁢䘬⚵㧁ˣ⎰媨⭂₡ˣ䒄↮ⶪ⟜炻⍲ 炾ㆾṌ㎃⼙枧䪞䇕䘬㓷デ屯㕁炻忽⍵˪㡅ἳ˫ᶳ䘬 ˬ䫔ᶨ埴䁢⬰⇯˭ˤ

1 䚠斄Ṣ⢓䘬奺刚炻婳⍫教㟰ẞ屯㕁ˤ 2 ὲ尒䚖⇵㬋⛐㶭䚌䦳⸷䔞ᷕ ˤ䪞⥼㚫⛐婧㞍㛇攻䘤䎦炻ὲ尒㕤2025 ⸜8 㚰27 㖍塓⍇姇㱽⹕≺Ẍ㶭䚌ˤ䪞⥼ 㚫㕤2026 ⸜3 㚰18 㖍䌚㱽⹕㈡Ⅾ⮵ὲ尒⯽攳⍲忚埴㗗㫉姜姇ˤ 3 㚱斄㴱㟰⯳剹⍲⣏⹰䘬屯㕁炻婳⍫教㟰ẞ屯㕁ˤ 4 慹柵忋⎴⼴≈ⶍ䦳ˤ⎎䓙㕤℞ᷕ ᶨᾳ㴱㟰⯳剹䘬ⶍ䦳⎰䲬军Ṳṵ㛒㈡↢炻℞慹柵㊱ⶍ䦳Ộῤ妰䬿ˤ 5 ⌛䤍⇑ˣ喅㜿ˣ⬷㹊ˣ䏳㤕⍲䪋泣䔞ᷕ 炻㚨⮹ᶨ攻㈧彎⓮炻婧㞍栗䣢ᶵ⎴枭䚖㚱ᶵ⎴⬱㌺ˤ 155

桗㳭涁䦷☏涁䦷☏弑 唝6RXWK,VODQG3ODFH 㣑 )6RXWK,VODQG3ODFH:RQJ&KXN+DQJ5RDG :RQJ&KXN+DQJ+21.21 7) :HEVLWHZZZFRPSFRPPKN 䪞⥼㚫䎦㬋⎹⮑塩嗽䓛婳␥Ẍ炻⊭㊔烉

x ⭋ⶫ6 ᾳ㤕⊁⮎橼⍲11 ⎵Ṣ⢓6忽⍵ㆾ䈥㴱ℍ忽⍵䫔ᶨ埴䁢⬰⇯炻᷎ ⎹ṾᾹ㕥≈优㫦烊 x ⎹6 ⎵Ṣ⢓7䘤↢⍾㴰吋ḳ屯㟤Ẍˤ

䓙㕤㚱ᾳ⇍Ṣ⢓㕤婧㞍㛇攻炻㛒㚱思⽆䪞⥼㚫䘬⻟⇞㪲≃㍸ὃ䚠斄屯㕁炻㬌冱⎗傥⸚䉗Ḯ ˪㡅ἳ˫䫔 52 㡅⍲䫔 54 㡅㇨妪㖶䘬↹ḳ伒埴炻䪞⥼㚫⶚⮯ᾳ㟰廱ṳḰ嬎㕡ἄ↹ḳ婧㞍ˤ㬌 ⢾炻䪞⥼㚫䘤䎦㚱㴱㟰㈧彎⓮⛐㈽㧁㗪炻䯥会Ḯ䓙䪞⥼㚫㍐↢䘬ˬᶵ⎰媨㈽㧁䡢娵㚠˭炷䡢 娵㚠炸8炻䚠斄Ṣ⢓㚱⎗傥⚈ἄ↢嘃`昛徘侴⸚䉗ᷚ 媨㫢姸伒埴 9炻䪞⥼㚫⮯㚫廱ṳḰ㚱斄➟ 㱽悐攨ἄ↹ḳ婧㞍ˤ

䪞⥼㚫埴㓧䷥塩䔊ẚ㖶⃰ 䓇堐䣢烉ˬ䪞⥼㚫ᶨ䚜檀⹎斄㲐㦻⬯䵕ᾖ䘬⚵㧁⓷柴炻役⸜⃰ ⼴㍉ ⍾Ḯ5 㫉⣏夷㧉䘬㏄㞍埴≽ˤ䚠斄埴≽⮵䪞⥼㚫䘬婧㞍ⶍἄ炻ẍ⍲彭忇ㇻ㑲ᶨṃ⍫冯⚵㧁䘬 Ṣ⢓炻㚱朆ⷠ ⣏䘬⸓≑ˤ˭

ˬㆹᾹṲ㖍ℍ䧇崟姜䘬炻㗗ᶨᾳ役⸜℺崟⎴㗪朆ⷠ 㳣帵䘬⚵㧁普⛀ˤ⛐㏄嫱㛇攻炻ㆹᾹ⍾⼿ 娚普⛀䘬ℏ悐忂妲炻栗䣢℞慶⽫㗗天⇑䓐ᶵ㱽ㇳ㭝炻Ỽ㒂ℐ㷗㦻⬯䵕ᾖⶪ⟜⚃↮ᷳ ᶨ䘬ⶪ⟜ Ỽ㚱䌯炻⍵㗈℞嗽⽫䧵ㄖ␴㤝⹎屒⨒䘬⽫ンˤ忁⬿㟰ẞṎㆸ䁢ᶨᾳ慵天䘬䨩䟜溆炻嬻ㆹᾹ⛐ ⼴临婧㞍ᷕ ㎕䘤㚜⣂⚵㧁普⛀䘬⬀⛐⍲ㇳ㱽ˤṲ㖍ℍ䧇⮑塩嗽炻㧁娴叿䪞⥼㚫⯙㦻⬯䵕ᾖ䘬 ➟㱽ⶍἄ忚ℍ崟姜昶㭝炻ㆹ⽭枰⻟婧炻忁㫉ℍ䧇⎒㗗攳⥳炻䪞⥼㚫晐⼴⮯映临⮵ᶵ⎴䘬⚵㧁 普⛀ἄ↢崟姜ˤ˭

䪞⥼㚫␤䰚㇨㚱ẩ㤕ᶵ天⽆ḳ⍵䪞䇕埴䁢炻侴⶚䈥㴱ℍ⎰媨埴䁢䘬Ṣ⢓炻ㅱ䚉⾓倗䴉䪞⥼ 㚫䓛婳⮔⼭ㆾ㍸ὃ⎰ἄˤ

6 ⌛⻝䂙㪲ˣ昛‍⻟ˣ␐㵹曆ˣ㛶῱晬ˣ唕㯠⹟ˣ湫㖶⻟ˣ∱㯠㢖ˣ櫷䓇㖢ˣ湶拎ℐˣ昛▱䌱⍲㛶῱晬ˤ 7 ⌛⻝䂙㪲ˣ櫷䓇㖢ˣ湶拎ℐˣ昛▱䌱ˣ昛⑵䘤⍲㛶῱晬ˤġ 8 䪞⥼㚫㕤2017 ⸜㍐↢Ḯˬᶵ⎰媨㡅㫦˭⍲ˬᶵ⎰媨㈽㧁䡢娵㚠˭䭬㛔炻ὃ㍉岤㕡≈ℍ℞㊃㧁㔯ẞ⍲㍉岤⎰䲬 ℏ炻ẍ㷃Ỷ⛐㍉岤忶䦳ᷕ 朊⮵⍵䪞䇕埴䇚䘬桐晒ˤ䯥会Ḯ䡢娵㚠䘬䪞㈽侭炻⤪忽⍵䡢娵㚠ℏ⭡炻⽆ḳ⚵㧁䫱⎰ 媨埴䁢炻夾᷶ 㟰ね炻㚱㨇㚫㥳ㆸˬᷚ 媨㫢姸˭伒炻ᶨ䴻⭂伒炻㚨檀⎗塓⇌嗽䚋䤩14 ⸜ˤ 9 枰夾᷶ 㭷⬿㟰ẞ䘬㟰ね侴⭂ˤ 156

桗㳭涁䦷☏涁䦷☏弑 唝6RXWK,VODQG3ODFH 㣑 )6RXWK,VODQG3ODFH:RQJ&KXN+DQJ5RDG :RQJ&KXN+DQJ+21.21 7) :HEVLWHZZZFRPSFRPPKN 㟰ẞ屯㕁

側㘗

䪞䇕ḳ⊁⥼⒉㚫炷䪞⥼㚫炸⛐2024 ⸜1 㚰㍍䌚⹱㓧℔会炷⹱会炸廱ṳ炻㊯ᶨᾳ㕘℺崟䘬⚵㧁普⛀ ⯙⣂枭㦻⬯䵕ᾖⶍ䦳䘬㊃㧁炻⽆ḳ屒㰉⍲⍵䪞䇕埴䁢ˤ䪞⥼㚫℞⼴㬋⺷⯽攳婧㞍炻᷎ ↮⇍⛐ 2024 ⸜4 㚰⍲8 㚰炻ℑ⹎冯⹱会㍉⍾倗⎰埴≽炻ㆸ≇㏄䌚㛔㟰䘬斄挝嫱㒂ˤ晐叿䪞⥼㚫ℍ䧇 ⮑塩嗽炻䚠ᾉ⶚ㆸ≇䒎妋娚普⛀ˤ

㴱㟰⯳剹/⣏⹰

䪞⥼㚫℔ⶫ䘬㟰ね㊯↢炻㕤2022 ⸜ 4 㚰军 2023 ⸜ 9 㚰炻娚⚵㧁普⛀⛐军⮹11 ᾳ⯳剹/⣏⹰ 炷夳ᶳ堐炸䘬䵕ᾖⶍ䦳㊃㧁㛇攻炻㴱⩴⽆ḳ⍵䪞䇕埴䁢ˤ䚠斄⎰䲬ㆾⶍ䦳Ộῤ⎰ℙ役7 €㷗⃫ ˤ

㴱㟰⯳剹/⣏⹰ ⛘⋨ ⶍ䦳䉨ン (㇒军2026 ⸜3 㚰20 㖍) 1. ⮯幵㽛侈㜿恐 大届⋨ ㊃㧁塓㍐侣炻慵㕘㊃㧁⼴䎦㗪ṵ㛒㈡↢ 2. 奨⠀⽟ᾉⶍ㤕⣏⹰ 奨⠀⋨ ⶚⬴ㆸ 3. 㞜䀋㦪侈冢 㜙⋨ ㈡↢⎰䲬⼴塓㍐侣炻慵㕘㊃㧁⼴䎦㗪ṵ 㛒㈡↢ 4. ⛇䒄䀋ṩ㘢⣏⹰ ḅ漵❶⋨ ⶚⬴ㆸ 5. 吝㴴吝寸㦻* 吝曺⋨ ⶚⬴ㆸ 6. 吝㴴⿉⊅剙⚺* 吝曺⋨ ⶚㙓䶑 7. ⣏奺␨ᷕ 㗇㦻 㱡⮾㖢⋨ ⶚⬴ㆸ 8. 戭搤䀋侨厗埿31 嘇 䀋Ṽ⋨ 㬋⛐㕥ⶍ 9. ⣏❼⣒⸛ⶍ㤕ᷕ ⽫䫔ᶨ⹏* ⣏❼⋨ ⶚⬴ㆸ 10. ⣏❼⬷䤷剹 ⣏❼⋨ ᶵ怑䓐 11. 㱡湣⛘⸛⬱⣏㦻 㱡⮾㖢⋨ 㬋⛐㕥ⶍ

*䓙⚵㧁普⛀ㆸ⒉——ὲ尒⺢䭱ⶍ䦳㚱旸℔⎠ᷕ 㧁

㴱㟰㤕⊁⮎橼⍲Ṣ⢓

䪞⥼㚫ℍ䧇䪞䇕ḳ⊁⮑塩嗽炷⮑塩嗽炸炻⎹ẍᶳ6 攻㤕⊁⮎橼⍲12 ⎵Ṣ⢓⯽攳㱽⼳䦳⸷ˤ

㴱㟰㤕⊁⮎橼

旸℔⎠炷枪寸⺢䭱炸炷䴙䧙枪寸炸烊

䓇䌐屯䴻䆇炸烊

157

桗㳭涁䦷☏涁䦷☏弑 唝6RXWK,VODQG3ODFH 㣑 )6RXWK,VODQG3ODFH:RQJ&KXN+DQJ5RDG :RQJ&KXN+DQJ+21.21 7) :HEVLWHZZZFRPSFRPPKN 㴱㟰Ṣ⢓

⥻⎵ 奺刚 娛ね 1. ⻝䂙㪲⃰ 䓇 普⛀ᷣ 儎 ὲ尒ⷽ ⼴㑵䷙Ṣˣ⇑㮹∝⺢⍲枪寸⺢䭱䘬吋ḳ⍲ⓗᶨ偉㜙 2. 昛‍⻟⃰ 䓇 ᷕ 攻Ṣ 枪寸⺢䭱⍲㷔慷ⷓ埴檀䳂枭䚖䴻䎮 3. ␐㵹曆⤛⢓ ᷕ 攻Ṣ ⻝䂙㪲ᷳ ⇵ₙ⒉ 4. 㛶῱晬⃰ 䓇 ᷕ 攻Ṣ ⻝䂙㪲ᷳ ⇵ₙ⒉ 5. 唕㯠⹟⃰ 䓇 ᷕ 攻Ṣ ⻝䂙㪲ᷳ ⇵ₙ⒉ 6. 湫㖶⻟⃰ 䓇 ᷕ 攻Ṣ ⻝䂙㪲ᷳ ⇵ₙ⒉ 7. ∱㯠㢖⃰ 䓇 ⶍ䦳㈧彎⓮Ṣ⒉ 䤍⇑枭䚖䴻䎮 8. 櫷䓇㖢⃰ 䓇 ⶍ䦳㈧彎⓮Ṣ⒉ 喅㜿吋ḳ⍲⇵偉㜙 9. 湶拎ℐ⃰ 䓇 ⶍ䦳㈧彎⓮Ṣ⒉ ⬷㹊䷥䴻䎮 10. 昛▱䌱⤛⢓ ⶍ䦳㈧彎⓮Ṣ⒉ 䏳㤕⇵埴㓧䴻䎮 11. 昛⑵䘤⃰ 䓇 ⶍ䦳㈧彎⓮Ṣ⒉ 䏳㤕吋ḳ 12. 㛶῱晬⃰ 䓇 ⶍ䦳㈧彎⓮Ṣ⒉ 䪋泣ⓗᶨ吋ḳ⍲ⓗᶨ偉㜙

忽⍵˪䪞䇕㡅ἳ˫䘬㚨檀优⇯ġ ġ 忽⍵˪䪞䇕㡅ἳ˫䘬㤕⊁⮎橼⎗塓䪞䇕ḳ⊁⮑塩嗽⇌嗽优㫦炻㭷枭忽ἳḳ枭䘬优㫦慹柵㚨檀⎗忼 娚㤕⊁⮎橼⛐楁㷗䘬⸜⹎䆇㤕柵䘬 10%炻㚨攟⎗忼 3 ⸜ˤ

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158

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㟰ẞ䳘䭨炷䭨抬炸 㟰ẞ䳘䭨炷䭨抬炸 普⛀㤝⹎屒⨒炻シ⚾⇑䓐ᶵ㱽ㇳ㭝炻Ỽ㒂ℐ㷗㦻⬯ 䵕ᾖⶪ⟜ġijĶĦġỼ㚱䌯 普⛀ㆸ⒉ᷳ 攻ẍ䈡⭂㘿嘇㹅忂炻 ἳ⤪烉 Ŀᷣ 奺ġľġ普⛀䘬枸姕ᷕ 㧁侭 Ŀ ⸓ㇳġľġ屈屔㍸ὃ㍑嬟⺷㈽㧁 Ŀ ≇婚ġľġ₡㟤㊯䣢ᷣ 奺ℍ㧁₡ ䷥㔠HK$87,522,050 普⛀ℏ ↢₡㚨Ỷ ⸓ㇳA≇婚İ ℍ㧁₡ ℍ㧁₡ ䷥㔠HK$99,189,035 ⸓ㇳB≇婚İ ℍ㧁₡ ℍ㧁₡ ䷥㔠HK$99,677,725 ˬ≇婚˭ℏ䘬㈽㧁₡䱦㸾军 ᾳỵ㔠 㚱≇婚╶烎天⸦⣂ẞ ⎓ᶱẞ┎炻倥㛅㭼≇婚 ⼴㖍Ṍ堐 XXXⶍ䦳㊃㧁 ≇婚 Ὢ␩׀┎ᷕ 㧁炻 Ἀ⸛▭娙⯙ⒼὪᶨᾳ 䚖㧁♇׀┎ 䄚Ⓖ䄚⇘䤩⣏⏨ ⽆⇵ㆹᾹ戨䡤⣏慷⮹炻㛒Ἦ ㆹᾹ䘬慷炻㚫㭼Ṳ⣑⣂⸦⋩ ᾵炻ᾉㆹ 㚫⺢䩳倗䴉悐炻⮰攨ẋ堐ㆹ ⍣倗䴉㇨㚱℔⎠埴⭞炻冒≽ ⏡暆⋼婧 ㆹ䎦⛐炻䛇䘬㚱ᾉ⽫炻 ㊹㇘25%ⶪ⟜Ỽ㚱䌯 160

FD06235 | 2025_港澳台_香港宏福苑大火_CC-report-for-IC.pdf

分类:06_境外及港澳台调查报告 | 年份:2025 | 地域:香港 | 严重程度: | 场所: | 起火原因: | 来源格式:pdf

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Re. Independent Committee in relation to the fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po (“IC”)

Report of the Hong Kong Competition Commission (“CC”)

Introduction 1. This is the report of the CC to the IC in response to its request for submissions with regards to §§2 to 4 of the Terms of Reference (“ToR”). 2. This report is broken down into the following sections: (1) Part 1 sets out a general overview of the CC’s enforcement work relating to the building maintenance and renovation sector1; (2) Part 2 sets out the CC’s observations on the systematic problems in large-scale building maintenance works in Hong Kong (§2 ToR); (3) Part 3 sets out the CC’s observations on the adequacies of existing regulations and penalties to address the said systematic problems (§3 ToR); (4) Part 4 sets out the CC’s recommendations that are relevant to (2) and (3) above (§4 ToR); and (5) Part 5 sets out the CC’s concluding observations.

In summary, the CC’s position is as follows: Re. §2 ToR

(1) Based on the CC’s market study and investigations, there is indeed a widespread, systematic, and longstanding practice among a sizable number of building maintenance contractors to affect the outcome of tenders for building maintenance works.

(2) Such practices are sometimes (although not necessarily) facilitated by malpractices from supposedly independent consultants that have been engaged by the owners of the relevant building(s) concerned.

(3) Such practices extend beyond “bid-rigging” per se (as defined under s.2 of the Competition Ordinance (Cap. 619) (“CO”) [Tab-1]), but

1 For the purpose of this report, the phrase “building maintenance work” / “building maintenance sector” should be read to encompass renovation works and the renovation sector as well.

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almost always involve other anticompetitive practices such as price- fixing and market-sharing.

(4) It is also not uncommon for building maintenance contractors to seek to influence the outcome of tenders through other means that do not constitute “bid-rigging” as defined in the CO. These methods may include:

(a) the exchange of competitively sensitive information (e.g. price) in circumstances that fall short of an actual agreement to rig-bids;

(b) engaging in an overarching market-sharing agreement where, for example, contractors would agree to not “enter” into each other’s “territory” ahead of any tender that may come about from buildings located in that territory;

(c) one building maintenance contractor “lending” its template letterheads, company credentials, and email accounts to another building maintenance contractor so that the latter may prepare and submit bids in the name of the other contractor as a “cover” for its own bid. This practice is colloquially known as “Credential Sharing”; and

(d) the setting up of ostensibly independent contractor companies that are, in effect, under the control of the same person / syndicate. These ostensibly independent contractors would, in turn, bid “against” each other in tenders to give the false impression that the underlying tendering process is a competitive one. This practice is colloquially known as “Phantom Bidding”.

(5) There exist syndicate-led cartels whereby there are clear systems of “registration”, dissemination of “homework”, and the presence of ring-leaders / coordinators. These syndicate-led cartels may involve dozens of building maintenance contractors and consultants. In different cases, the CC has observed syndicates working with, as well as competing against, each other to affect the outcome of a tender.

(6) A number of building maintenance contractors and consultants are believed to be affiliated with triad societies in Hong Kong who, in

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turn, may facilitate the operation / continuance of these anticompetitive practices through unlawful means (such as the use of threats or actual violence).

Re. §§3-4 ToR

(7) In terms of existing regulation, the CO provides a suite of powers to the CC and prescribes penalties which enable the CC to tackle anticompetitive conduct including those related to building maintenance under existing legal framework. In addition, with a view to reducing procurers’ exposure to anticompetitive conduct in the procurement process, in 2017 (later revised in 2023), the CC published a set of model non-collusion clauses (“NCC”) and non- collusive tendering certificate (“NCTC”) and encouraged procurers to include the same in their bidding documents and contracts. These have since been widely adopted in the public and private sectors.

(8) While it is still able to tackle building maintenance related anticompetitive conduct under existing legal framework, the CC believes that there is certainly room for legislative changes as well as additional administrative measures which would (1) enhance the effectiveness of CC’s enforcement work under the CO; (2) facilitate criminal prosecutions in appropriate cases; and (3) better deter would-be cartelists. In particular:

Enhancing CC’s enforcement effectiveness under the CO

(a) the CO should clearly stipulate that the relevant standard of proof which the CC must meet in cases where it seeks pecuniary penalties against undertakings and persons it suspects to have contravened the CO is that of the civil standard (i.e. balance of probabilities). Apart from being consistent with the “civil nature” of competition law that was passed by the Legislature in 2012, this would also render the investigative and enforcement work of the CO much more effective compared to the current status quo whereby the relevant standard is the criminal standard (i.e. beyond any reasonable doubt), in part because the CO is silent on what the appropriate standard of proof should be;

(b) the CO should clearly provide for certain statutory

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presumptions that are in line with well-established overseas jurisprudence. For example, where it is proven that competitors had exchanged competitively sensitive information, there should be a statutory presumption that the competitors had done so in order to influence each other’s behaviour on the relevant market and that such an exchange did, in fact, have that effect. This would negate the need for the CC to prove intent / causation which is inherently difficult especially under a criminal standard of proof; and

(c) the existing definition of “bid-rigging” (s.2 CO [Tab-1]) should expressly stipulate that it is not necessary for the CC to show that the relevant anticompetitive conduct was not made known to the person calling the tender in order to prove its case. If, in any case, a respondent wants to rely on the fact that it had made the relevant collusive arrangement known to the person calling the tender as a defense or mitigation, the burden should be on the respondent to prove the positive (that the arrangement was made known by “Bidder X” to “Tenderee Y”) rather than on the CC to prove the negative (that no one at “Bidder X” had made the arrangement known to anyone from “Tenderee Y”).

Facilitating criminal prosecutions / Increasing deterrence

(a) Under the existing laws of Hong Kong, where a building maintenance contractor / consultant had submitted bids that are arrived at by collusion in circumstances where it had expressly warranted by way of the NCTC that it had not engaged in anticompetitive conduct, the breaching of the NCTC could also lead to criminal prosecution under the common law offence of conspiracy to defraud.

(b) The CC fully supports any initiative that seeks to impose criminal sanctions and to increase deterrence against natural persons and undertakings that have been engaged in anticompetitive behaviour when tendering for building maintenance work. To this end, the CC has the following observations:

(i) In terms of short-term measures: that may be immediately

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taken, to the extent that this is not already done, in all large-scale building maintenance tenders involving public bodies, there should be a requirement for all bidders to execute NCTCs lest their bid will not be counted. If it subsequently transpires that the bidder has, in breach of the terms of the NCTC, in fact engaged in collusion prior to submitting its bid, the bidder can be referred to the relevant authorities for criminal prosecution under the common law offence of conspiracy to defraud.

(ii) Additionally, bidders in such large-scale building maintenance tenders could be required to execute a Statutory Declaration confirming the contents of the NCC / NCTCs which, if it is subsequently shown that it is knowingly false, would render the bidder criminally liable for the separate offence of having made a false declaration. The CC views this as being a sensible and effective addition that would make prospective criminal prosecutions easier.

(iii) In terms of mid-term measures: the execution of NCTCs / proposed Statutory Declarations could be required for all large-scale building maintenance tenders and not just for those involving the public sector.

(iv) In terms of long-term measures: amendments to the CO may be made to introduce a criminal regime whereby a specific statutory offence is created targeting natural persons to address anticompetitive behaviour in large- scale building maintenance works while preserving civil penalties for undertakings and natural persons engaged in less egregious conduct. In this regard, the relevant offence should be framed as being one that does not only cover “bid-rigging” per se but also capable of catching other anticompetitive conduct that aims to influence the outcome of the relevant tender (c.f. §3(4) above).

(v) Additionally, in civil cases, the maximum penalty for undertakings that have been found to have contravened the CO as well as the maximum period of director’s

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disqualification orders should be increased. Part 1: General Overview of the CC’s Enforcement Work in the Building Maintenance Sector 4. The CC is the primary law enforcement agency of the CO. In addition to its law enforcement work, one of the CC’s statutory functions is to conduct market studies into matters affecting competition in markets in Hong Kong.

The CO came into full commencement on 14 December 2015. Prior to the full commencement of the CO, the CC conducted an extensive market study into the building maintenance sector in Hong Kong. At the time, this was done, in part, to address the widespread perception that this sector was rife with anticompetitive behaviour.

In May 2016, the CC published its “Report on study into aspects of the market for residential building renovation and maintenance” Tab-2.

In the Report, the CC had sought and obtained from the Urban Renewal Authority (“URA”) and the Hong Kong Housing Society tender records from a number of tenders for building maintenance works. Applying structural and behavioural economic screening techniques that are commonly deployed by overseas competition agencies to the relevant records, the CC’s screening analysis did reveal suspicious patterns that are consistent with there being widespread bid-manipulation practices in Hong Kong. In particular:

(1) A substantial number of bids which supposedly independent consultants had submitted fell below the minimum cost of providing the relevant services. This would suggest that unless the consultants were willing to engage in loss-making behaviour (which generally makes no commercial sense), these consultants might have expected to be remunerated through other (possibly nefarious) means.

(2) In a number of instances, consultants were recorded as having priced their bids in circumstances that did not appear to have any meaningful correlation with the size of the project. This, in turn, suggests that these consultants might have priced their bids in circumstances that were unrelated to the projected costs in undertaking the relevant works.

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(3) Statistically, the frequency in which certain consultants would end up working with certain contractors would lend support to the existence of some form of vertical cooperation between the consultant and the chosen contractor.

As, at the time, the Report was based on analysis of bids submitted prior to the full commencement of the CO, the CC could not take any enforcement actions off the back of the findings of the Report.2

Between 2016 and 2019, the CC filed 3 enforcement actions against 18 undertakings and 5 individuals for engaging in anticompetitive conduct (price-fixing and market sharing) in the decoration and renovation sector in Hong Kong. In each of these actions, the CC was successful in securing declarations of contraventions, pecuniary penalties, and director disqualification orders against those persons holding office in the relevant companies.

In 2022, the CC conducted the first of five investigations into the building maintenance sector in Hong Kong in coordination with the Organized Crime and Triad Bureau of the Police. As of January 2026, the CC had five investigations relating to building maintenance works in Hong Kong covering at least:

(1) 68 residential estates;

(2) 15 industrial estates; and

(3) 64 companies.

The CC filed its first enforcement action concerning price-fixing, bid- rigging, and market-sharing in the large-scale building maintenance sector in March 2026. The CC has provided its Originating Notice of Application and the press-release materials corresponding to that case to the IC and understands that they will be made open to public. 2 It is also important to note that absent exceptional circumstances, proof of suspicious patterns alone will not be sufficient to find a case of “bid-rigging” for the purposes of the CO. Screening analysis of this sort are, instead, generally used to identify potential areas for investigation and to support the necessary statutory threshold which must be met before the CC may use its compulsory powers of investigation under the CO.

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Part 2: Systematic Problems in Large-Scale Building Maintenance and Renovation Works in Hong Kong (§2 ToR) 12. Based on the CC’s investigations, the following observations may be relevant for present purposes:

(1) The CC believes that there is indeed a widespread, systematic, and long-standing practice between some building maintenance contractors to affect the outcome of tenders for building maintenance works. Such practices can range from and are not limited to:

(a) a one-off agreement between building maintenance contractors whereby one / some would refrain / drop out from the bidding process (colloquially referred to as “bid- suppression”);

(b) a one-off agreement between building maintenance contractors whereby there would be a pre-agreed “designated winner” of the tender whose chances of winning would be supported by other building maintenance contractors who would purposely submit less attractive bids (colloquially referred to as “cover-bidding”); and

(c) a market-wide coordinated effort where members of syndicates of building maintenance contractors would agree to / “register” themselves to an overarching scheme where they would facilitate each other’s chances of winning over a number of tenders by systematically engaging in cover bidding if and when called upon (colloquially / loosely referred to as “bid-rotation”).

(2) These practices are sometimes facilitated by the consultants that are supposedly independently engaged by the owners / incorporated owners (“IO”) of a building. In these cases, the consultants may, in exchange for compensation (whether by way of outright payment or by taking a “cut” from the final project works), agree to favourably recommend a building maintenance contractor for the owners and IO to select.

(3) Aside from the practices referred to at §12(1)(a)-(c) above, there exist many other anticompetitive practices on the market for building

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maintenance works that while they may fall short of the definition of “bid-rigging” for the purposes of s.2 CO3 [Tab-1], are nevertheless capable of influencing the outcome of a tender. For example:

(a) an undertaking (whether it may be a bidder / consultant) may exchange competitively sensitive information concerning an ongoing / upcoming tender with an actual / potential bidder, in circumstances where there is no express evidence of an agreement as to how that information will be deployed. This practice is known as “information exchange” and while it is usually, in itself, a standalone contravention of competition law, this is generally not regarded as “bid-rigging’ per se;

(b) multiple undertakings may engage in a market-wide agreement to allocate territories amongst themselves such that they have agreed, in advance, not to “enter” into each other’s geographical market regardless of whatever tendering opportunities that may arise. In competition law, this is known as “market sharing” and is, in fact, separately defined as being a form of Serious Anti-competitive Conduct under s.2 CO [Tab- 1];

(c) one building maintenance contractor may agree to lend its company templates, credentials, email accounts to another building maintenance contractors to put in tender in the former’s name whenever convenient. This practice is known as “credential sharing” and depending on the extent of the first building maintenance contractor’s knowledge, may fall outside the definition of bid-rigging for the purposes of the CO4; and

(d) one building maintenance contractor may set up a number of ostensibly independent building maintenance contractors but which are under common de facto control. These contractors

3 Which, broadly speaking, is defined as: (1) the submission of a bid that have been arrived at by agreement that was not made known to the person calling the tender; or (2) an agreement to withdraw / refuse to bid that was not made known to the person calling the tender. It should be noted that for the purposes of the CO, “bid-rigging” is regarded as a Serious Anti-competitive Conduct that enables the CC to directly bring enforcement action before the Competition Tribunal (“Tribunal”) (c.f. s.2 CO [Tab-1]).

4 At present the CC has only encountered the practice of credential sharing in other industries. The CC however believes that there is no reason why cartelist will not also apply similar malpractices in the building maintenance sector.

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will “bid against” each other in tenders for building maintenance works to give the impression that the tender was a competitive one when, in fact, it was not. This practice is known as “phantom bidding” and depending on whether “phantom bidders” may be regarded as truly “separate” businesses, this practice may fall outside the definition of bid- rigging for the purposes of the CO if the Tribunal does not regard this arrangement as amounting to an agreement between undertakings.

(4) Finally, the CC has reasons to suspect that a number of building maintenance contractors and consultants are affiliated with triad societies in Hong Kong. In the past, the CC has encountered cases where there was evidence that:

(a) threats of or actual violence were used to compel a bidder for building maintenance works to withdraw from a tender or to follow the instructions of the triad societies on how to submit a tender;

(b) building maintenance contractors that are affiliated with the same triad society would coordinate their bids in accordance with instructions received from a senior member of that triad society; and

(c) even within the same tender for a particular building maintenance contract:

(i) building maintenance contractors from two triad societies would try to influence the outcome of the tender by coordinating the behaviour of their own affiliated building maintenance contractors in “competition” with the other triad society; or

(ii) two triad societies would work with each other by cover- bidding for each other.

The following live case studies are provided as illustrations of some of the above practices: 11

(1) Case Study 1: Bid-suppression with the involvement of triads

and suspected corrupt consultants

In one of the CC’s investigations, a building maintenance contractor was interested in bidding for a building maintenance project for a residential building that was the subject of a mandatory building inspection order.

The building maintenance contractor therefore reached out to the appointed consultant inquiring about the status of the tender. The building maintenance contractor and the appointed consultant agreed to meet to discuss the tender.

On the day of the meeting, the appointed consultant had invited two other men to attend as well. One of the men identified himself as being a bidder of the tender while the other claimed to be a member of a triad society.

The two men then, in the presence of the consultant, asked the building maintenance contractor to refrain from bidding and upon him refusing to do so, assaulted him. Subsequently the building maintenance contractor decided to not bid in the tender and reported the matter to the Police who then referred the matter to the CC.

(2) Case Study 2: Syndicate operated cover-bidding cartel

In another of the CC’s investigations, a person who is believed to be a senior office bearer of a triad society is the de facto owner of a building maintenance contractor.

Whenever there was a tender for building maintenance works on the market which this senior office bearer and/or his associates were interested in securing, these persons would “blow the whistle” (吹雞 ) to gather other building maintenance contractors (“Instructed Bidders”) to help rig the outcome of the tender.

This would be achieved by associates of the senior office bearer preparing individual pricing instructions for these Instructed Bidders to follow (which the syndicate refers to as “homework” (功課)). These “homework” would then be sent to the Instructed Bidders either through WhatsApp or fax.

The Instructed Bidders would then submit bids in accordance with the

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“homework” with the net result that a pre-determined bidder would end up submitting a more attractive bid than the other Instructed Bidders.

The CC believes that this syndicate has been operational since June 2020 until 2024 when the CC turned its investigation overt.

(3) Case Study 3: Cooperation between multiple syndicates to rig- bids

Finally, in one of CC’s investigations, in an attempt to rig the outcome of a tender for a particular building maintenance project, the ringleader / coordinator of one syndicate had sought and received assistance from members of another syndicate.

As a result, the CC believes that more than 20 building maintenance contractors were involved in attempting to rig the outcome of a single tender with all of this being centrally coordinated in a systematic fashion.

Against all of the above, the CC considers the above practice to be: (1) Widespread: in that geographically it covers buildings in the whole of Hong Kong and involves a substantial number of building maintenance contractors and consultants.

(2) Systematic: especially where syndicates are involved whereby there are clear systems of “registration”, dissemination of “homework” and existence of ring-leaders / coordinators.

(3) Long-standing: almost every witness who has been willing to attest to the above practices has attributed this to being a long-standing trade practice in Hong Kong. Some of the jargons used (e.g. 「豬標 」 and 「豬仔標」) are used by cartelists in other market sectors as well, such as the IT sector and the sector for installation and maintenance of large-scale air-conditioning works.

Part 3: Existing Regulations and Penalties (§3 ToR) Regulations and Penalties under the CO 15. Under the CO, undertakings are expressly prohibited from entering into any agreement / concerted practices that has the object or effect of harming

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competition in Hong Kong (referred to as the First Conduct Rule under s.6 CO [Tab-1]). This would include paradigmatic cases of bid-suppression, cover-bidding, and bid-rotation.

The maximum penalty for undertakings that have entered into anticompetitive agreements (such as bid-rigging) is capped at 10% of its Hong Kong turnover for a maximum of three years for each year the undertaking has contravened the CO (see. s.93(3) CO [Tab-1]).

For persons involved in the anticompetitive agreement (such as the relevant director / employee), the CO does not specify a maximum penalty as such. It is the CC’s position that the maximum penalty is unlimited in these circumstances.

Where a company has contravened the CO and if the Tribunal considers that a person’s conduct as a director makes the person unfit to be concerned in the management of a company, that person may be disqualified from being concerned in the management of a company for up to 5 years (see. ss.101-103 CO [Tab-1]).

The Tribunal has previously held that the applicable standard of proof in proceedings where the CC seeks a pecuniary penalty is that of the criminal standard. This is because:

(1) The CO itself is silent on the applicable standard of proof; and

(2) As proceedings involving the imposition of a pecuniary penalty involve a determination of a criminal charge for the purposes of Art. 11 of the Hong Kong Bill of Rights (“BOR”), absent express / implied legislative provisions to the contrary, the starting point for such proceedings would normally be the criminal standard of proof.

While the Court of Appeal has previously observed obiter that there is a “reasonably arguable basis” the Tribunal may not have had sufficient regard to the potential frustration of effective enforcement in assessing whether there had been a derogation of Art. 11 BOR by necessary implication, it declined to definitively come to a determination on this issue (see W. Hing Construction Company Limited [2021] 3 HKLRD 219 [Tab-3] at 240-244 [75]-[96], [84] in particular). 14

Regulations and Penalties under the General Laws of Hong Kong 21. It should be noted that bid-rigging per se (i.e. where supposedly competing undertakings agree to not compete with each other in response to a call for tender) is not a criminal offence, or at least does not constitute a conspiracy to defraud. In Chan Wai Yip (2010) 13 HKCFAR 842 [Tab-4], the Court of Final Appeal expressly held that persons attending an auction owed no obligation to the vendor to compete nor were they required by law to ensure that the vendor achieved the highest possible price, and an agreement not to compete in an auction had no deceptive element and hence not per se unlawful.

However, there was also an observation that if the person calling the tender in that case (the FEHD) wanted to protect itself, it could have required a written warranty from each of the potential bidders to the effect that in making a bid, the bidder warranted that he/she had not entered into any prior arrangement to refrain from competitive bidding (Chan Wai Yip supra at 854 [31] [Tab- 4]).

Against the above, in 2017, the CC recommended the adoption of certain model “non-collusion clauses” and “non-collusive tendering certificates” by both the private and public sectors so that any prospective bidders must expressly warrant that in bidding for the relevant tender, the bidder had independently prepared the bid and, in essence, had not colluded with any other persons. CC’s model NCC and NCTC was further revised in 2023 to enable procurers to more easily ascertain the ultimate beneficial owners of persons submitting bids in tenders containing these provisions.

Armed with the revised NCC / NCTC, the CC takes the view (supported by Counsel’s advice recently obtained) that where:

(1) a company has submitted a bid containing a signed NCTC; and

(2) it subsequently transpires that employees / agents / other persons relating to the company had engaged in any form of collusion that renders the representations contained in the NCTC a falsity;

any person that are knowingly parties to the collusive agreement that ultimately led to the submission of the bid which contains the false NCTC may be criminally liable for conspiracy to defraud.

15

By way of illustration: (1) where a building maintenance contractor has submitted a bid containing an NCTC and the person executing the NCTC (e.g. the authorised signatory of a company) had colluded with a competitor or the consultant in an attempt to rig the outcome of the tender, any person that is party to the collusion may be criminally liable for a conspiracy to defraud; and

(2) conversely, even if the person executing the NCTC does not have actual knowledge of the underlying collusion that renders the representation false, although he will not be criminally liable, other employees within the company who intended that the NCTC be signed with false representations (e.g. because they were the relevant persons colluding with the relevant competitor / consultant) will still be liable for conspiracy to defraud - along with any persons who are knowingly involved at the other end of the collusion (e.g. the relevant employees working for the competitor / consultant).

Since its introduction in 2017, the CC’s model NCC and NCTC have been adopted by many Government bodies in Hong Kong, including the URA. As of today, the CC understands that all tenders that are called pursuant to the URA’s SMART Tender scheme contain the CC’s model NCC and corresponding bidders are required to provide an NCTC as part of their bid under the SMART Tender scheme. In the context of Wang Fuk Court, the CC understands that all of the relevant consultancy and contractor tenders contain NCCs and most of the bidders have, in turn, executed NCTCs.

In the circumstances and for the purposes of §3 ToR, the existing regulations in Hong Kong are capable of imposing criminal liability at common law on persons that are knowingly parties to bid-rigging in the building maintenance sector provided that there are means to require prospective bidders to provide the relevant written warranties to the procurers (such as an NCTC). Part 4: CC’s Recommendations Amendments to the CO

The CC considers that while it is able to tackle building maintenance related anticompetitive conduct under existing legal framework, there is always room for legislative changes which would enhance the effectiveness of CC’s enforcement work under the CO, facilitate criminal prosecutions in

16

appropriate cases, and better deter would-be cartelists. 29. At present, the CC considers that amendments to the CO along the following lines will prove critical in enhancing the effectiveness of the competition law regime in Hong Kong. (1) First, on the question of “standard of proof” for proceedings where the CC is seeking a pecuniary penalty, the existing legislation (s.93 CO for example) should be amended so that it expressly provides that the relevant standard is that of the civil standard (i.e. balance of probabilities). This is not only in line with international best practices, but as the CC had submitted in W. Hing [83] – [84] [Tab- 3], there is a real prospect that a criminal standard would frustrate effective enforcement of competition law in Hong Kong. This is especially in cases that are complex, technical, and/or where the underlying conduct is well concealed (as one would expect in paradigmatic cases of cartel conduct). (2) Second (particularly important if the standard of proof is to remain that of the criminal standard in pecuniary penalty proceedings), the CO should expressly incorporate well-established overseas presumptions lest the criminal standard of proof renders the CC and the Tribunal unable to draw upon such well-established jurisprudences. For example, in a case of information exchange, where it is shown that a competitor (actual or potential) had transmitted competitively sensitive information to another competitor, this exchange should be presumed (subject to proof to the contrary) to have influenced each other’s market behavior (this is known as the Anic presumption in EU law). Such statutory presumption is, in effect, similar to that provided for in insider dealing regulations where similar presumption of “use” of information also exists. (3) Third, on the definition of bid-rigging, the CO should be amended to clearly provide that it is not necessary for the CC to show that the relevant anticompetitive conduct was not made known to the person calling the tender in order to prove its case. This will obviate any potential argument that, in any given bid-rigging case, the CC must prove the negative (i.e. that the suspected bid-riggers had not made their relevant arrangements known to any of the relevant persons within the tendering body) - something which will understandably require considerable time and effort on the part of the CC.

17

(4) Finally, concerning the available sanctions against persons that have contravened the CO, the CC recommends that the relevant penalties / periods for director disqualification be increased in a meaningful manner. In doing so, the CC hopes that, together with the changes in (1)-(3) above, the CO is truly able to strike its message of deterrence at the “hearts” of would-be cartelists. 30. In terms of the actual wordings of the above proposed amendments, the CC, working in collaboration with the Commerce and Economic Development Bureau, will approach the Department of Justice on this matter in due course.

Finally, the CC recommends that in addition to requiring all prospective bidders to execute NCTCs in any given tender for large-scale building maintenance works, all prospective procurers should also require all bidders in large-scale tenders (including residential building maintenance works) to execute a Statutory Declaration in terms that are similar to the model NCTC.

In doing so, it is the CC’s intention to provide for the possibility of subsequent criminal prosecution against persons that have engaged in bid- rigging and have sworn the relevant Statutory Declaration to, further or alternative to the offence of a conspiracy to defraud, be charged for having made a false declaration under section 36 of the Crimes Ordinance (Cap. 200) [Tab-5].

“Criminalising Bid-rigging” 33. As to whether Hong Kong should expressly criminalise bid-rigging in order to sanction egregious cartelists and to deter persons from engaging in such conduct in future, the CC’s observations are as follows: (1) The CC fully supports any initiative that seeks to impose criminal sanctions and increase deterrence against persons and undertakings that have been engaged in anticompetitive behaviour when tendering for building maintenance work. (2) The CC is currently considering the legal and enforcement framework from other jurisdictions that have a dual-track civil and criminal competition regime (e.g. UK, Australia, and New Zealand) which allows differential enforcement routes against cartelists and to what extent the experiences from those jurisdiction may be readily

18

applicable to Hong Kong. (3) Given that the overwhelming public concern is about all sorts of anticompetitive behaviour that are capable of influencing the outcome of a tender for building maintenance works, simply criminalising “bid-rigging” as defined by the CO may not be sufficient to address this concern. The criminal “net” must, in the circumstances, be cast wider to capture other forms of anticompetitive conduct that may fall short of / be different from “bid-rigging” (e.g. information exchange, market-sharing, credential sharing, and phantom bidding). (4) Finally, it would be prudent for any legislative attempt to “criminalise bid-rigging” to be complementary to (and not designed to supplant) any existing avenues that may already impose criminal liability on would-be cartelist (such as the offence of conspiracy to defraud and the making of false declarations etc.). 34. In this regard, the CC has also been working in collaboration with the Commerce and Economic Development Bureau on possible approaches to criminalization and will consult the Department of Justice on this matter in due course. Part 5: Concluding Observations 35. The CC hopes that this report will prove helpful to the IC in understanding the nature of the underlying problem at hand and the extent to which existing / future regulations may play a role in tackling this problem.

Dated the 14th day of May 2026

Competition Commission

Re. Independent Committee in relation to the fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po List of Documents 1. Sections 2, 6, 93, and 101-103 Competition Ordinance (Cap. 619). 2. Report on study into aspects of the market for residential building renovation and maintenance dated May 2016. 3. W. Hing Construction Company Limited [2021] 3 HKLRD 219. 4. Chan Wai Yip (2010) 13 HKCFAR 842. 5. Section 36 Crimes Ordinance (Cap. 200). Dated the 14th day of May 2026 Competition Commission

Chapter 619 Competition Ordinance 19/09/2019 2. Interpretation (1) In this Ordinance— agreement ( 協議) includes any agreement, arrangement, understanding, promise or undertaking, whether express or implied, written or oral, and whether or not enforceable or intended to be enforceable by legal proceedings; Commission ( 競委會) means the Competition Commission established by section 129; Communications Authority ( 通訊事務管理局) means the Communications Authority established by section 3 of the Communications Authority Ordinance (Cap. 616); company (公司), in addition to the meaning given by section 2(1) of the Companies Ordinance (Cap. 622), includes a non-Hong Kong company within the meaning of that Ordinance and a company registered under Part IX of the Companies Ordinance (Cap. 32) as in force from time to time before the commencement date* of section 2 of Schedule 9 to the Companies Ordinance (Cap. 622) or under Part 17 of the Companies Ordinance (Cap. 622); (Amended 28 of 2012 ss. 912 & 920 and L.N. 162 of 2013) company secretary (公司秘書) includes any person occupying the position of company secretary, by whatever name called; competition authority (競爭事務當局) means— (a) the Commission; or (b) the Communications Authority; competition matter ( 競爭事宜) means any matter involving or having a connection with— (a) a contravention or alleged contravention of a competition rule; or (b) any decision relating to a competition rule, that has been made or is to be made under this Ordinance; competition rule (競爭守則) means— (a) the first conduct rule; (b) the second conduct rule; or (c) the merger rule; conduct (行為) means any conduct, whether by act or omission; conduct rule (行為守則) means— (a) the first conduct rule; or (b) the second conduct rule; confidential information ( 機密資料) has the meaning given by section 123; contract of employment (僱傭合約) means any agreement, whether in writing or oral, express or implied, under which one person (an employer) agrees to employ another and that other agrees to serve the employer as an employee, and also includes a contract of apprenticeship; director ( 董事) includes any person occupying the position of director or involved in the management of a company, by whatever name called, and includes a shadow director; 2/27/26, 5:43 PM Hong Kong e-Legislation - Print Selected Documents https://www.elegislation.gov.hk/printhtml 1/6

document (文件) includes information recorded in any form; first conduct rule ( 第一行為守則) has the meaning given by section 6; functions (職能), except in section 130, includes powers and duties; funds of the Commission (競委會資金) means the funds of the Commission, as specified in section 21 of Schedule 5; Government (特區政府) does not include a company that is wholly or partly owned by the Government; information (資料) includes information contained in a document; infringement notice (違章通知書) means an infringement notice issued under section 67(2); investigation (調查) means an investigation conducted under Part 3; leniency agreement (寬待協議) means a leniency agreement made under section 80; member (委員), in relation to the Commission, means a member of the Commission appointed under section 2 of Schedule 5; merger (合併) has the meaning given by section 3 of Schedule 7 read together with section 5 of that Schedule; merger rule ( 合併守則) has the meaning given by section 3 of Schedule 7; person (人), in addition to the meaning given by section 3 of the Interpretation and General Clauses Ordinance (Cap. 1), includes an undertaking; President ( 主任法官) means the President of the Tribunal appointed under section 136; reviewable determination (可覆核裁定) has the meaning given by section 83; second conduct rule (第二行為守則) has the meaning given by section 21; serious anti-competitive conduct (嚴重反競爭行為) means any conduct that consists of any of the following or any combination of the following— (a) fixing, maintaining, increasing or controlling the price for the supply of goods or services; (b) allocating sales, territories, customers or markets for the production or supply of goods or services; (c) fixing, maintaining, controlling, preventing, limiting or eliminating the production or supply of goods or services; (d) bid-rigging; Note— See also subsection (2). shadow director (幕後董事), in relation to a company, means a person in accordance with whose directions or instructions all the directors or a majority of the directors of the company are accustomed to act, but a person is not to be regarded as a shadow director by reason only that all the directors or a majority of the directors act on advice given by that person in a professional capacity; statutory body (法定團體) means a body of persons, corporate or unincorporate, established or constituted by or under an Ordinance or appointed under an Ordinance, but does not include— 2/27/26, 5:43 PM Hong Kong e-Legislation - Print Selected Documents https://www.elegislation.gov.hk/printhtml 2/6

(a) a company; (b) a corporation of trustees incorporated under the Registered Trustees Incorporation Ordinance (Cap. 306); (c) a society registered under the Societies Ordinance (Cap. 151); (d) a co-operative society registered under the Co-operative Societies Ordinance (Cap. 33); or (e) a trade union registered under the Trade Unions Ordinance (Cap. 332); Tribunal (審裁處) means the Competition Tribunal established by section 134; undertaking (業務實體) means any entity, regardless of its legal status or the way in which it is financed, engaged in economic activity, and includes a natural person engaged in economic activity. (2) For the purposes of the definition of serious anti-competitive conduct— bid-rigging (圍標) means— (a) an agreement— (i) that is made between or among 2 or more undertakings whereby one or more of those undertakings agrees or undertakes not to submit a bid or tender in response to a call or request for bids or tenders, or agrees or undertakes to withdraw a bid or tender submitted in response to such a call or request; and (ii) that is not made known to the person calling for or requesting bids or tenders at or before the time when a bid or tender is submitted or withdrawn by a party to the agreement or by an entity controlled by any one or more of the parties to the agreement; or (b) a submission, in response to a call or request for bids or tenders, of bids or tenders that are arrived at by an agreement— (i) that is made between or among 2 or more undertakings; and (ii) that is not made known to the person calling for or requesting bids or tenders at or before the time when a bid or tender is submitted or withdrawn by a party to the agreement or by an entity controlled by any one or more of the parties to the agreement; goods (貨品) includes real property; price ( 價格) includes any discount, rebate, allowance, price concession or other advantage in relation to the supply of goods or services; supply (供應)— (a) in relation to goods, means sell, rent, lease or otherwise dispose of the goods, an interest in the goods or a right to the goods, or offer so to dispose of the goods or of such an interest or right; and (b) in relation to services, means sell, rent or otherwise provide the services or offer so to provide the services. 2/27/26, 5:43 PM Hong Kong e-Legislation - Print Selected Documents https://www.elegislation.gov.hk/printhtml 3/6

Chapter 619 Competition Ordinance 19/09/2019 Chapter 619 Competition Ordinance 19/09/2019 (3) A note located in the text of this Ordinance is provided for information only and has no legislative effect.

Editorial Note:

Prohibition of anti-competitive agreements, concerted practices and decisions (1) An undertaking must not— (a) make or give effect to an agreement; (b) engage in a concerted practice; or (c) as a member of an association of undertakings, make or give effect to a decision of the association, if the object or effect of the agreement, concerted practice or decision is to prevent, restrict or distort competition in Hong Kong. (2) Unless the context otherwise requires, a provision of this Ordinance which is expressed to apply to, or in relation to, an agreement is to be read as applying equally to, or in relation to, a concerted practice and a decision by an association of undertakings (but with any necessary modifications). (3) The prohibition imposed by subsection (1) is referred to in this Ordinance as the first conduct rule. 93. Tribunal may impose pecuniary penalty (1) If the Tribunal is satisfied, on application by the Commission under section 92, that a person has contravened or been involved in a contravention of a competition rule, it may order that person to pay to the Government a pecuniary penalty of any amount it considers appropriate. (2) Without limiting the matters that the Tribunal may have regard to, in determining the amount of the pecuniary penalty, the Tribunal must have regard to the following matters— (a) the nature and extent of the conduct that constitutes the contravention; (b) the loss or damage, if any, caused by the conduct; (c) the circumstance in which the conduct took place; and (d) whether the person has previously been found by the Tribunal to have contravened this Ordinance. (3) The amount of a pecuniary penalty imposed under subsection (1) in relation to conduct that constitutes a single contravention may not exceed in total— (a) subject to paragraph (b), 10% of the turnover of the undertaking concerned for each year in which the contravention occurred; or 2/27/26, 5:43 PM Hong Kong e-Legislation - Print Selected Documents https://www.elegislation.gov.hk/printhtml 4/6

Chapter 619 Competition Ordinance 19/09/2019 Chapter 619 Competition Ordinance 19/09/2019 Chapter 619 Competition Ordinance 19/09/2019 (b) if the contravention occurred in more than 3 years, 10% of the turnover of the undertaking concerned for the 3 years in which the contravention occurred that saw the highest, second highest and third highest turnover. (4) In this section— turnover (營業額) means the total gross revenues of an undertaking obtained in Hong Kong; year (年度) means the financial year of an undertaking or, if the undertaking does not have a financial year, a calendar year. 101. Disqualification order (1) In the circumstances specified in section 102, the Tribunal may, on application by the Commission, make a disqualification order against a person. (2) A disqualification order is an order that a person may not, without the leave of the Tribunal— (a) be, or continue to be, a director of a company; (b) be a liquidator or provisional liquidator of a company; (c) be a receiver or manager of a company’s property; or (d) in any way, whether directly or indirectly, be concerned or take part in the promotion, formation or management of a company, for a specified period, not exceeding 5 years, beginning with the date of the order. (3) In this section— specified (指明) means specified in the disqualification order. 102. Circumstances in which disqualification order may be made The Tribunal may only make a disqualification order against a person if both of the following conditions are satisfied in relation to that person— (a) it has determined that a company of which the person is a director has contravened a competition rule; and (b) it considers that the person’s conduct as a director makes the person unfit to be concerned in the management of a company. 103. Unfitness to be concerned in management of company (1) For the purpose of deciding under section 102(b) whether a person is unfit to be concerned in the management of a company, the Tribunal— (a) must have regard to whether subsection (2) applies to the person; and 2/27/26, 5:43 PM Hong Kong e-Legislation - Print Selected Documents https://www.elegislation.gov.hk/printhtml 5/6

(b) may have regard to the conduct of the person as the director of a company, in connection with any other contravention of a competition rule. (2) This subsection applies to a person if as a director of the company— (a) the person’s conduct contributed to the contravention of the competition rule; (b) the conduct of the person did not contribute to the contravention, but the person had reasonable grounds to suspect that the conduct of the company constituted the contravention and took no steps to prevent it; or (c) the person did not know but ought to have known that the conduct of the company constituted the contravention. 2/27/26, 5:43 PM Hong Kong e-Legislation - Print Selected Documents https://www.elegislation.gov.hk/printhtml 6/6

Report on study into aspects of the market for residential building renovation and maintenance May 2016

The market for residential building renovation and maintenance is an important market for the people of Hong Kong. Building renovation and maintenance costs are often a major expense for ordinary home owners 1, so that outcomes in this market have a signiϐicant impact on the family lives and standards of living of many ordinary people. Moreover, a wide variety of sources have expressed deep concern that there is widespread collusive activity in tenders for renovation and maintenance projects, to the detriment of home owners who must pay for the associated costs out of their savings. In view of these concerns, and to enable the Competition Commission to understand how this complex market operates so as to inform its future enforcement and advocacy efforts, the Commission undertook a study of certain aspects of the market for residential building renovation and maintenance since the spring of 2015. This report outlines the results of the Commission’s examination of certain activities in this market. The Commission’s general purpose and approach in conducting market studies

The Commission’s functions include “to conduct market studies into matters affecting competition in markets in Hong Kong” and “to advise the Government on competition matters in Hong Kong and outside Hong Kong”. 2

The Commission’s market study function provides the Commission with the opportunity to assess whether competition in a market is working effectively. This is particularly relevant where it is desirable to focus on the functioning of the market as a whole or on features of a market in more general terms rather than on a single aspect of it or the conduct of particular ϐirms within it. Market studies may examine any competition problem and may identify the market features causing the problem. A wide range of information may be studied and analysed during the course of a market study. Economic analysis techniques may be used to further identify issues. The use of “screening” techniques applied during this particular study is described in this report.

The main objective of a market study is to examine if competition within a market is working well or can be improved; it does not seek to establish general rules and obligations for ϐirms. The Commission can look at the conduct of ϐirms as it relates to the functioning of competition in the market generally, and it can also look for other causes of insufϐicient competition such as structural aspects of the market (including barriers to entry and expansion) or the conduct of customers. The purpose of a market study is not necessarily to look for contraventions of the Competition Ordinance, and subjects for a market study are not conϐined to issues that could be contraventions. 1 We would note that tenants will likely be affected in a similar way to home owners, because higher maintenance and renovation costs will likely be passed on to them to some extent. 2 Competition Ordinance, section 130. 1‧ Report on study into aspects of the market for residential building renovation and maintenance

Two things should be noted about the Commission’s study in this case. Firstly, and as a general point, the Commission does not have compulsory information gathering powers in conducting market studies unlike in the case of investigations of possible contraventions of the Competition Ordinance. Secondly, this market study relates to activities that occurred before the full commencement of the Competition Ordinance in any event. Thus, in contrast with market studies that the Commission might conduct in the future, the conduct studied would not likely constitute a contravention of the competition rules because they were not yet in force.

If the Commission identiϐies that there are systematic problems of insufϐicient competition in a market, it can take a number of steps. For instance, if the Commission identiϐies that there is problematic conduct potentially falling foul of the Competition Ordinance by a number of ϐirms in the market, it may identify that sector as meriting priority in enforcement case selection. Additionally, if the Commission identiϐies that there is a structural competition deϐicit within the market that may be solved through Government policies or action, it may make appropriate recommendations to the Government in accordance with its government advisory function. The Commission may also consider whether education of market participants would assist in resolving the problems identiϐied. Potential competition issues identiϐied in the market for residential building renovation and maintenance

The Commission undertook an examination of a segment of the market for residential building renovation and maintenance related to the common areas of residential buildings as it operated just prior to the Competition Ordinance coming into effect. To do this, the Commission sought information from a range of stakeholders and market participants. In particular, the Commission was greatly assisted in its understanding of the market by the Urban Renewal Authority (the URA) and the Hong Kong Housing Society (the HKHS), who provided the Commission with historical information on tenders for projects.

The appointment of ϐirms to undertake building renovation and maintenance work for home owners is usually done in a two-stage process. Commonly, the home owners ϐirst appoint a consultant to advise them on the type of work that needs to be done and to oversee a tender process for the appointment of a contractor. That ϐirm (that is, the consultant) must include an authorised person registered under the Buildings Ordinance (typically a registered architect, engineer, or surveyor). Second, the contractor – who will undertake the physical renovation and maintenance construction work – is appointed by way of a tender overseen by the consultant. ‧2

The Commission’s examination of the market in this case indicated that different types of bid-manipulation practices appear to be of particular concern in this two stage process. One type of bid-manipulation practice occurs where competing contractors engage in bid-rigging cartel conduct or other collusive behaviour intended to inϐluence the outcome of the tender for their services to their favour, typically resulting in an inϐlated contract price compared to a more competitive level. The consequence of the higher price is that the consumers of the contractors’ services, that is, the home owners who have to pay for the building work, pay more because of the collusive practice.

A second type of bid-manipulation practice (which may accompany or facilitate the conduct described in the preceding paragraph) occurs where a consultant and a contractor conspire with each other so that the particular consultant wins the bid to oversee the tender for the physical works (sometimes by putting in an extremely low bid for the consulting services), and then organises for its allied contractor to win the bid for the renovation work at an inϐlated price. Again, the ordinary home owner pays more because of this bid-manipulation practice.

These two practices are very likely not the only conduct engaged in for the purpose of bid-manipulation in this market. The Commission also notes that both practices – potentially in conjunction with other conduct – may be used in combination as part of a broader bid-manipulation scheme. The extent to which speciϐic instances of bid- manipulation could potentially contravene the Competition Ordinance depends on the facts of each case.

The Commission received substantial anecdotal and other market intelligence suggesting that bid-manipulation practices may have taken place regularly in Hong Kong in the recent past in relation to the market examined, to the detriment of Hong Kong consumers. The Commission therefore applied screening techniques to analyse the tender records of past actual projects. As explained in more detail below, screening can help competition authorities detect suspicious conduct and decide where to look more closely for evidence of competition law breaches. The screening carried out by the Commission can provide an indication of whether patterns in the data would be consistent with the widely suspected bid-manipulation practices. It also indicates whether the Commission would likely decide to investigate some of the observed patterns if they were encountered today using a more recent set of tender data. The Commission has undertaken detailed quantitative “screening” analysis on a wide range of projects

The Commission examined the past tender results of a wide range of speciϐic building maintenance projects which the URA and HKHS shared with the Commission on a conϐidential basis. Based on its analysis of these tender records, the Commission found patterns that would be consistent with the above mentioned bid- manipulation practices widely suspected in the building maintenance and renovation market.

3‧ Report on study into aspects of the market for residential building renovation and maintenance

The projects examined were those subsidised under the Operation Building Bright (OBB) scheme, a government subsidy scheme launched in 2009. OBB consisted of two rounds of funding with a total allocation of up to $3.5 billion. Buildings beneϐiting from the scheme are of a certain vintage (30 year-old or over). Geographically, the scheme covers Hong Kong Island, Kowloon and the New Territories and involves building works in the common area of buildings, typical of the works undertaken in most building renovation and maintenance projects initiated by owners in Hong Kong. Information on the tenders concerned was collected by the URA and the HKHS during the course of the scheme. The Commission analysed the results of around two hundred tenders for the appointment of consultants to plan and oversee OBB renovation projects, and of around ϐive hundred tenders for the appointment of contractors to carry out the renovation works.

The Commission examined these tender records by using a method known as screening. Originally proposed by academic economists, screening has been used by competition agencies around the world to facilitate cartel detection. Cartels cause signiϐicant economic harm and ϐighting them is a priority for competition authorities. However, cartels operate in secret and they are hard to detect. Leniency programmes that offer cartelists immunity or reductions in ϐines in exchange for information on cartel conduct have been used by many competition authorities with great success. Screens represent an additional tool competition authorities can use to uncover cartel behaviour and can – as such – complement leniency programmes and other detection techniques. Background information about screening

Generally, screens can be classiϐied into two types – structural and behavioural. 3 Structural screens are based on the structural characteristics of a market (e.g. the number of competitors and product homogeneity) and aim to identify markets that are more susceptible to collusion. Such structural screens can provide useful guidance to competition authorities in deciding which markets within the economy to prioritise when enforcing cartel prohibitions.

Behavioural screens, on the other hand, look for behaviour on the part of market participants within a speciϐic market that appears more likely to be consistent with collusion rather than competition. 4 These screens can again be classiϐied broadly into two categories: (1) screens that look for patterns that are very unlikely to occur under competition and (2) screens that look for patterns that appear inconsistent with some benchmark (for example, a market in another region or some measure of costs). In both cases the screen ϐlags behaviour/patterns that appear(s) inconsistent with competition, indicating that the market concerned may be affected by some form of collusion. The Commission has applied both types of behavioural screens in this market study. A brief review of screens applied elsewhere in the world below illustrates how such screens can work in practice. 3 OECD Directorate for Financial and Enterprise Affairs – Competition Committee (2014), Ex ofϐicio cartel investigations and the use of screens to detect cartels, Background Note by the Secretariat, p.225. Available at http://www.oecd.org/daf/competition/exofficio-cartel-investigation-2013.pdf 4 Ibid, p.20 ‧4

A prominent example internationally is the uncovering of collusive conduct in the setting of the LIBOR benchmark interest rate in the ϐinancial market through the use of screening techniques. 5 LIBOR is an important benchmark interest rate – that is, a price of borrowing money – used widely in ϐinancial markets. It was set daily in London by the British Bankers Association based on individual quotes on the costs of borrowing money from a number of banks. Journalists initially ϐlagged suspicious patterns in the LIBOR benchmark. Academics then followed up with more detailed screening analysis. One of the results of this screening was that many banks had submitted identical quotes for extended periods of time. This is a pattern that seems highly unlikely if the banks made their decisions independently of each other without any coordination. Subsequent investigations by competition authorities and ϐinancial regulators in several jurisdictions led to substantial penalties.

Screens have also been used to detect collusive behaviour in the construction sector. For example, the screening of highway paving project tenders in New York State in the United States suggested that certain known cartelists who had previously participated in bid-rigging rings elsewhere in New York State also rigged the tenders under study. 6 Speciϐically, the authors of the study looked into the relationship between the level and ranking of bids and the underlying costs of the bidders. They found that the level and ranking of bids submitted by the non-cartel ϐirms could be explained by relevant cost indicators while this was not the case for the bids submitted by the cartelists. The authors interpreted these results as an indicator of cover bidding – where bidders agree to submit bids with higher prices or less attractive (or unacceptable) terms as compared with the bid of the designated winner – by those parties with a prior history of cartel conduct. The results of the Commission’s use of screening techniques

The Commission applied a number of different and complementary screening techniques to the tender records it had obtained. One screen the Commission applied focused on tender participation and tender success. The motivation for this screen ϐlows directly from the forms of bid-manipulation widely suspected in this market and outlined above: if certain groups of bidders conspire to inϐluence tender outcomes in their favour, one might expect those groups of bidders to participate in the same tenders frequently. Furthermore, where such groups do participate in the same tender, group members’ chances of winning the tender should also increase. The Commission screened the tender data for such patterns.

More speciϐically, the Commission ϐirst looked for indications of consultants and/or contractors participating in the same tenders more often than would be expected if they were making their decisions to participate independently of each other. It is, of course, difϐicult to decide in practice which level of participation in the same tenders is consistent with independent decision making and which level is not. 5 See, for example, Abrantes-Metz, Rosa M., Michael Kraten, Albert D. Metz and Gim S. Seow (2012), LIBOR Manipulation?, Journal of Banking and Finance, 36(1), pp. 136-150. 6 Porter, Robert H. and Zona, J. Douglas (1993), Detection of Bid Rigging in Procurement Auctions, Journal of Political Economy, 101(3), pp. 518-538. 5‧ Report on study into aspects of the market for residential building renovation and maintenance

‧6

  1. The Commission therefore looked at different measures of participation. One measure

evaluated participation from a statistical perspective. The Commission ϐirst asked: how often would we expect to see consultant/contractor and contractor/contractor pairs in the same tender if participating together occurred at random (or put differently, if participation were statistically independent)? The Commission then compared this benchmark level of anticipated pairs with actual pairs in the data. It labelled pairs that appeared too frequently as being possibly associated. 7 A second measure of groups of contractors started from actual participation in tenders. The measure looked for groups of contractors where each group member (1) participated with some frequency in tenders in general and (2) satisϐied some threshold of participation in other group members’ tenders. Again, the Commission considered groups of contractors that fulϐilled these requirements as being possibly associated. As a result of these analyses, the Commission identiϐied possible associations in the data between certain consultants and contractors as well as between certain contractors.

  1. The Commission then went on to check whether the presence of an association between

bidders – as indicated by the above screening analysis – increased the prospect of winning a tender. The result is that it did. Contractors were more likely to win a tender where our screening indicated they were associated with the consultant organising the tender. Similarly, contractors were more likely to win a tender the higher the number of associated contractors – again, as indicated by the above screening analysis – participating in the tender.

  1. Overall, these results suggest that participation patterns in the tender data appear

consistent with the widely alleged bid-manipulation practices described at the outset of this report. While the results do not prove that such practices were present, they would – if encountered today using more recent data – likely lead the Commission to investigate particular tenders.

  1. In a separate analysis, the Commission screened for bid amounts that appear not to be

reϐlective of the costs of providing the underlying goods and services. The motivation for the screen is that in a competitive environment there should typically be a relationship between the cost of providing the goods and services and the bid submitted: the higher the costs underlying the bid, the higher the level of the bid. The Commission’s analyses indicate that bidding patterns of consultants often appear out of line with the underlying costs. There are two ways by which the Commission arrived at this conclusion.

  1. In the ϐirst part of the analysis, the Commission compared the values of consultants’ bids

with an estimate obtained from an industry expert of the minimum costs of providing the services associated with even the most basic consulting project. The ϐigure below illustrates this analysis. 7 The word “associated” as used in this paragraph is not intended to imply any legal association in a corporate sense. The word merely refers to the fact that particular parties appear together in particular tenders more often than might be anticipated if they made their decisions completely independently.

The ϐigure shows the distribution of consultants’ bids with respect to their value (the bid amount). The red line in the ϐigure indicates the minimum estimate of costs associated with even the most basic consultancy project as provided by an industry expert. More than 65% of the bids submitted by consultants fall below that estimate. This may suggest that consultants’ bids are suspiciously low in many projects. One possible interpretation would be that consultants bid aggressively low in order to win a project and subsequently beneϐit from awarding renovation work to particular contractors.

In the second part of the screening analysis of the costs underlying bids, the Commission analysed whether consultants’ bids increased with the size of a project. While genuine bids should show a relationship between project size and bid value, this need not necessarily be the case for cover bids that are not intended to win a project. The results indicate that some consultants’ bids did vary in line with project size, but other consultants’ bids did not (or at least much less). The ϐigure below illustrates the result. 7‧ Report on study into aspects of the market for residential building renovation and maintenance

The ϐigure shows the relationship between bid amounts and project size (approximated by the number of units in a building) for two consultants. The consultant on the left submitted bids that tend to increase with project size. This is a pattern one would expect under competition: the larger the project, the higher the associated costs and the higher the value of the bid. The consultant on the right, on the other hand, submitted bids that show no clear relationship with the size of the project (and often take on the same value for projects of very different size). One possible interpretation for this latter pattern is that certain consultants may have submitted bids that were unrelated to their costs in certain tenders.

Overall the results of the Commission’s screening analyses would be consistent with the widely alleged bid-manipulation practices outlined above having been present to an extent. They are, however, no proof of such activities having actually taken place; our screening analyses are neither suited nor intended to conclusively prove contraventions. The purpose of screens is primarily to identify patterns that are suspicious in order to focus an investigation and decide where to look more closely for additional evidence. As a consequence, the Commission has neither concluded that any speciϐic practices led to the patterns observed during the study, nor that the conduct underlying these patterns would have contravened the Competition Ordinance had it been in full effect at the relevant time. Nevertheless, if encountered today, the results would likely lead the Commission to initiate further investigations into certain aspects of this market. ‧8

The Commission will investigate future bid-rigging collusion that is now illegal under the Competition Ordinance

  1. The Competition Ordinance came into full effect on 14 December 2015. Under the First

Conduct Rule in the Ordinance, businesses must not make, give effect to or facilitate agreements that have the object or effect of preventing, restricting or distorting competition in Hong Kong. If the Commission were to encounter similar patterns detected in the context of this study today, it would likely raise concerns that there may be conduct underlying them that could contravene the First Conduct Rule and warrant further investigation. If such investigations eventually conϐirmed suspected contraventions of the First Conduct Rule, the conduct could be brought to the Competition Tribunal for the imposition of penalties. In particular, where there is evidence of collusion on bids between competing contractors as part of a bid-rigging cartel, the practices may constitute serious anti-competitive conduct as deϐined by the Competition Ordinance and may attract very serious penalties.

  1. Moreover, if a consultant conspires with, aids or is in any way knowingly

concerned in a bid-rigging cartel, the consultant is also exposed to pecuniary penalties under the Competition Ordinance. Market participants are advised to bid for projects on a competitive basis and to avoid collusive practices or conspiring with others in support of such practices now that the Competition Ordinance is in full force.

  1. The methods used in the Commission’s study of the building renovation and maintenance

sector have potential implications for future conϐidential investigations and law enforcement actions to be undertaken by the Commission. As a result, the Commission proposes to limit the amount of detail it provides on the methods employed in this case.

  1. The Commission’s enforcement and advocacy activities will be informed by the

results of the screening exercises in this study, as it attempts to uncover bid- rigging and other contraventions of the Competition Ordinance now that the law is in full force. To the extent that bid-rigging cartels, in particular, can be prevented, Hong Kong home owners and tax payers will beneϐit from more competitive contract prices.

  1. Home owners and other members of the public are encouraged to be alert to

the prospect of bid manipulation and are encouraged to come forward and report any speciϐic information to the Commission and other authorities for further examination. The Commission will be issuing educational materials about bid- rigging including brochures and videos. This will include detailed guidance to relevant stakeholders, such as procurement ofϐicers, on how to structure tenders to avoid potential bid manipulation and how to detect bid manipulation more readily. 9‧ Report on study into aspects of the market for residential building renovation and maintenance

The Commission supports the URA’s, the HKHS’s and the Government’s initiatives in this market

  1. The Commission wishes to acknowledge that in administering the OBB Scheme,

the URA and the HKHS have taken a number of important steps to address the problem of bid-rigging. Their formulation of OBB Maintenance Guidelines and New Tender Arrangements (“NTA”) in consultation with the ICAC has gained notable success in improving the competitiveness of the tender process for OBB projects.

Under the NTA, three tender procedures originally handled by the authorised person, building management company and/or owners’ corporation members of buildings under the OBB scheme were managed by an independent accounting ϐirm appointed by the URA or HKHS. The whole process from collecting, acknowledging and recording expressions of interest, distributing tender documents as well as collecting and opening the returned tenders was carried out and certiϐied by a certiϐied public accountant. In order to encourage more building contractors to take part in the tendering process and in line with the OBB Maintenance Guidelines, 10 additional registered general building contractors were selected by the appointed independent accounting ϐirm from a computer ballot to add to the list of tenderers. 8

Before and after the introduction of the NTA in September 2013, in the cases handled by URA, the average number of expressions of interest for an OBB project rose from around 20 to 50, and the number of bids submitted rose from around 16 to 29. The most striking change was an increase in the share of projects for which actual award prices were in line with independent consultants’ pre-tender estimates from around 54% to 93%.

The Commission also understands that the URA and the HKHS have referred suspected cases of bid-rigging with criminal elements to the Police and the ICAC.

Th e Government of the HKSAR has recently announced additional measures to combat bid-rigging. Speciϐically, on 10 May 2016 the URA launched the “Smart Tender” Building Rehabilitation Facilitating Services (pilot scheme) which will (1) set up an electronic bidding platform for property owners to invite bids and receive expressions of interest from contractors for building renovations, thereby keeping conϐidential the identity of the bidders until the bid opens, and (2) provide access for home owners to professional advice regarding the recommended scope of building renovation projects and estimated value of works. 9 8 See announcement by URA and HKHS, available at http://www.ura.org.hk/en/media/press- release/2013/20130918.aspx 9 See http://www.ura.org.hk/en/media/press-release/2016/20160510.aspx ‧10

The Commission supports and encourages these Government initiatives. Hong Kong home owners will beneϐit signiϐicantly if markets for this important expense operate competitively – home owners would receive better prices, better quality services, and more choices in building renovation and maintenance. The electronic bidding platform proposed by the Government can, by partly anonymising bids, help tenders operate more effectively and protect against the establishment of bid rigging cartels. Similarly, the access to the professional advisory services proposed by the Government can assist home owners to be better informed and more able to distinguish between legitimate and collusive bids, and assist them to make better, more informed and competitive choices as to how to spend their money on the renovation and maintenance of their homes. The Commission welcomes these positive outcomes. Going forward

The techniques developed in the context of this study could potentially be used to detect possible competition law violation going forward. The Commission now has the tools developed over the course of the study at its disposal. The ability to conduct a meaningful screening exercise depends very much on the amount and quality of data that are made available for analysis. In this connection, the Commission calls upon both the public and private sectors to work on collecting and building databanks of building maintenance- related tenders. For example, the Commission will explore with the Government the possibility of assessing data on different projects collected via the electronic bidding platform mentioned in paragraph 40 above.

As the tender process home owners use to award contracts may expose them to certain forms of bid-manipulation, information about how to prevent and detect bid-rigging is important. It is also important that consultants and contractors understand their obligations. The Commission has identiϐied the need to undertake further education and outreach activities on bid-rigging. The Commission is launching a series of brochures, videos and exhibitions on this topic, and all participants or would-be participants in tenders are urged to actively ϐind out more.

More generally the Commission could also see that there is considerable scope to work with stakeholders such as the URA and the ICAC and other government bodies to closely review the process of awarding work in this area and to recommend measures that could help protect home owners. This could, for example, involve recommended changes to the tendering process and tender documents. For example, consultants and contractors could be required to declare that no bid-rigging has occurred when submitting tenders. This would ensure that bidders turn their minds to the need to ensure no bid-rigging has occurred. Additionally, if the bid is subsequently found to be rigged the tenderer may be able to take private action in respect of the misleading declaration. 11‧ Report on study into aspects of the market for residential building renovation and maintenance

Consultants of different professions and contractors play an essential role in building maintenance projects. The market study has highlighted possible concerns about the participation of some of these players in bid-manipulation practices. In this connection, the Commission calls upon the relevant industries and professional bodies to develop and strengthen the codes of conduct for their members to give due regard to the competition rules. The Commission stands ready to facilitate these industries and professional bodies in such an exercise. Conclusion

This market study has considered the issue of bid-manipulation in residential building renovation and maintenance project tenders. The Commission’s use of screening techniques to analyse tender outcomes has revealed patterns that would be consistent with the wide-spread feeling among the public that there may have been problems in building renovation and maintenance markets. If the Commission were to obtain similar results today, it would very likely investigate further certain patterns highlighted by the analysis. The results of the study will be used to inform the Commission’s enforcement and advocacy activities now that the Competition Ordinance is in full effect.

Those who might be tempted to manipulate bids in contravention of the competition rules should know that the Commission is watching and it has at its disposal a number of different tools to detect such contraventions. The Commission understands what has been taking place, and it will investigate where it can. Those contemplating rigging a bid should abandon such projects. Those already involved in rigging bids should realise that they are involved in serious anti-competitive conduct and should do the right thing by approaching the Commission to apply for leniency under the Commission’s Leniency Programme to avoid the risk of facing substantial penalties and other sanctions. The Commission has identiϐied bid-rigging cartels as a priority for enforcement and will use the full extent of its powers to end bid-rigging cartels.

The study also provides an opportunity for the Commission to share knowledge with relevant government departments and public authorities to assist them to identify where potentially anti-competitive bid-rigging conduct has occurred, and measures that can be taken to minimise the risk of it occurring in the future. Additionally, where the Commission identiϐies bid-manipulation that is unlikely to contravene the Competition Ordinance, but may be an offence under other laws (e.g. anti-corruption or bribery laws) the Commission will refer relevant cases to the appropriate authorities such as the Police and the ICAC. 24 May 2016 ‧12

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Competition Commission and W Hing Construction Co Ltd (永興聯合建築有限公司) ———— [2021] HKCA 877 (Court of Appeal) (Civil Appeal No 257 of 2019) ———— Lam V-P, Barma and Au JJA 5 May, 18 June 2021 Competition law — Competition Tribunal — proceedings for breach of “first conduct rule” — proceedings against partnership for pecuniary penalty — liability of individual partners — no basis to import requirement of mens rea on part of individual partners — Competition Ordinance (Cap.619) Competition law — Competition Tribunal — proceedings for pecuniary penalty — standard of proof — inappropriate for Court of Appeal to determine issue at high level of abstraction — Competition Ordinance (Cap.619) Civil procedure — appeal — Court of Appeal — discretion to entertain appeal where lis between parties had gone — inappropriate to determine at high level of abstraction 競爭法 — 競爭事務審裁處 — 違反「第一行為守則」的法律程序 — 針 對合夥的金錢處罰的法律程序 — 個人合夥人的法律責任 — 沒有基礎去 引入個人合夥人該部分的犯罪意圖之要求 — 《競爭條例》(第619章) 競爭法 — 競爭事務審裁處 — 金錢處罰的相關法律程序 — 舉證標準 — 不適合由上訴法院於高度抽象的層面上裁定爭議 — 《競爭條例》(第619 章) 民事訴訟程序 — 上訴 — 上訴法院 — 在訴訟方之間的爭議已消失的情 況下受理上訴的酌情決定權 — 不適合於高度抽象的層面上裁定爭議 R4 was found by the Competition Tribunal (the Tribunal) to have contravened the “first conduct rule” under the Competition Ordinance (Cap.619) (the Ordinance). Subsequently, the Tribunal imposed sanction by way of pecuniary penalties. In the Originating Notice of Application, the Competition Commission (the Commission) had named R4 as “Cheung Yiu Fai Danny and Wong [2021] 3 HKLRD 219

Tung Hoi (in partnership trading as Tai Dou Building Contractor)”. Xs, the two named individual partners, appealed against their liability, submitting, inter alia, that: (i) since it was conceded before the Tribunal that the Commission was not proceeding against the unnamed partners, the Commission could not have been suing in respect of their joint liability stemming from the acts of the firm and was actually suing Xs as individuals regarding their own personal involvement in respect of the contravention of the first conduct rule; (ii) because the liability of the partners was joint, and not several, the proceedings were defective by virtue of the failure to join the unnamed partners; and (iii) taking into account the criminal nature of the proceedings, Xs should not have been held liable in the absence of personal acts or mens rea on their part constituting breach of the first conduct rule. Xs did not seek to disturb the Tribunal’s finding that the firm was liable. The Commission, by respondent’s notice, sought to challenge the determination that the standard of proof for proceedings for a pecuniary penalty under ss.92 and 93 of the Ordinance was proof beyond reasonable doubt. It contended, inter alia, that the Ordinance had impliedly derogated from the criminal standard, otherwise applicable pursuant to art.11 of the Hong Kong Bill of Rights, by necessary implication by virtue of potential frustration of effective enforcement. Held, dismissing the appeal and declining to address the respondent’s notice, that: (1) Although the naming of R4 in the Originating Notice of Application and its description therein was ambiguous, reading it as a whole and in context, the acts and conduct pleaded as contraventions of the first conduct rule were those of the partnership. In any event, all parties had proceeded in the Tribunal on the basis that the firm was R4, and Xs were proceeded against by virtue of their capacity as partners. There was no rigid rule that in advancing a claim on joint liability all parties jointly liable must be joined. (See paras.28, 34, 65, 67.) (2) Notwithstanding the application of criminal standard of proof by virtue of art.11 of the Hong Kong Bill of Rights in terms of procedural safeguards, on the proper construction of the Ordinance, proceedings in respect of contraventions of the first conduct rule did not involve the trial of a substantive statutory criminal offence. Accordingly, there was no basis to import the requirement of mens rea on the part of Xs; their liability flowed from the liability of partners for the civil obligations of a partnership (Competition Commission v TH Lee Book Co Ltd [2020] HKCT 12 approved; Secretary for Justice v Cheung Kai Yin [2016] 4 HKLRD 367 applied; R [2021] 3 HKLRD 219 HONG KONG LAW REPORTS & DIGEST 220

v W Stevenson & Sons (A Partnership) [2008] 2 Cr App R 14, Riley v Director of Public Prosecutions [2017] 1 WLR 505 distinguished). (See paras.39, 45–46, 57–58, 61.) (3) The Court was not persuaded that it should determine the implied derogation point in the respondent’s notice at a high level of abstraction, having dismissed Xs’ appeal on other grounds. The discretion to hear an appeal where the lis between the parties had gone was to be exercised with caution. In the absence of argument concerning potential frustration of enforcement objectives having been tested where the application of the criminal standard would have a real impact, it was not appropriate to determine the issue (R v Secretary of State for the Home Department, ex p Salem [1999] 1 AC 450, Chit Fai Motors Co Ltd v Commissioner for Transport [2004] 1 HKC 465 applied; Koon Wing Yee v Insider Dealing Tribunal (2008) 11 HKCFAR 170, Competition Commission v Nutanix Hong Kong Ltd [2019] HKCT 2, [2019] 3 HKC 307 considered). (See paras.76, 84, 86, 88–89, 94–96.) Appeal This was an appeal by two individual partners named in the title of the proceedings as the partners of a firm from the decision of Godfrey Lam J, sitting as the President of the Competition Tribunal, that the firm had contravened the “first conduct rule” under the Competition Ordinance (Cap.619) (see [2019] 3 HKLRD 46), and, by respondent’s notice, an appeal by the Competition Commission concerning the applicable standard of proof in proceedings for pecuniary penalties under that Ordinance. Mr Daniel Beard QC, Mr Abraham Chan SC and Mr Byron Chiu, instructed by King & Wood Mallesons, for the applicant. Mr Martin Hui SC, Mr Solomon Lam and Mr Joshua S Kanjanapas Wong, instructed by Henry Yu & Associates, for the 4th respondent. Legislation mentioned in the judgment Competition Ordinance (Cap.619) ss.6, 45, 45(3)(a), (b), 52–55, 93–96, 130, 133, 144, 147, 148, 148(3), 154, 155, 155A, 155A(2)(b), 171, 171(1), 172–175, Sch.3, 3 paras.1(b), (c), (d), (e), (g), (h), (j), (k), (l), (m), (n), (o), (p), (q), Pt.4 Divisions 1, 2, 3, 4, Pt.6 Divisions 2, 3, 5 Competition Tribunal Rules (Cap.619D, Sub.Leg.) s.4 Hong Kong Bill of Rights Ordinance (Cap.383) s.8 art.11, 11(1) Partnership Ordinance (Cap.38) s.11 Rules of the High Court (Cap.4A, Sub.Leg.) O.81 rr.1, 5 221 Competition Commission v W Hing Construction Co Ltd [2021] 3 HKLRD 219

Cases cited in the judgment Beghal v Director of Public Prosecutions [2015] UKSC 49, [2016] AC 88, [2015] 3 WLR 344, [2016] 1 All ER 483, [2015] 2 Cr App R 34 Chit Fai Motors Co Ltd v Commissioner for Transport [2004] 1 HKC 465 Competition Commission v Nutanix Hong Kong Ltd [2019] HKCT 2, [2019] 3 HKC 307 Competition Commission v TH Lee Book Co Ltd [2020] HKCT 12, [2021] 2 HKLRD E2, [2020] HKEC 4147 Hin Lin Yee v HKSAR (2010) 13 HKCFAR 142, [2010] 2 HKLRD 826, [2010] 3 HKC 403 JJB Sports PLC v Office Fair Trading [2004] CAT 17, [2005] Comp AR 29 Koon Wing Yee v Insider Dealing Tribunal (2008) 11 HKCFAR 170, [2008] 3 HKLRD 372 Kot See For v Lam Man Cheung [2021] 2 HKLRD 263, [2021] HKCA 348 Kulemesin v HKSAR (2013) 16 HKCFAR 195, [2014] 1 HKC 1 Napp Pharmaceutical Holding Ltd v Director General of Fair Trading [2002] CAT 1, [2002] ECC 13 R v Secretary of State for the Home Department, ex p Salem [1999] 1 AC 450, [1999] 2 WLR 483, [1999] 2 All ER 42, (1999) 11 Admin LR 194 R v Secretary of State for the Home Department, ex p Simms [2000] 2 AC 115, [1999] 3 WLR 328, [1999] 3 All ER 400, [1999] EMLR 689 R v W Stevenson & Sons (A Partnership) [2008] EWCA Crim 2732008] 2 Cr App R 14 Riley v Director of Public Prosecutions [2016] EWHC 2531 (Admin), [2017] 1 WLR 505 Robinson v Geisel [1894] 2 QB 685 Secretary for Justice v Cheung Kai Yin [2016] 4 HKLRD 367, [2016) 6 HKC 25 Other materials mentioned in the judgment Halsbury's Laws of England (5th ed., 2020), Vol.79, para.84 Hong Kong Civil Procedure 2021 Vol.1, para.81/1/10 Lindley & Banks on Partnership (20th ed.), paras.14-02, 14-43, 14-44 REASONS FOR JUDGMENT Lam V-P (giving the reasons for judgment of the Court) 1. This is an appeal by two individual partners named in the title of the proceedings as the partners of the firm Tai Dou Building [2021] 3 HKLRD 219 HONG KONG LAW REPORTS & DIGEST 222

Contractor (Tai Dou) against the judgment of 17 May 2019, [2019] HKCT 3 (the Judgment) by Godfrey Lam J sitting as the President of the Competition Tribunal. By that judgment, the learned President found that “the 4th respondent” contravened the first conduct rule under the Competition Ordinance (Cap.619) (the Ordinance). In light of the contentions before us, we shall have more to say as to the identity of the 4th respondent at the proceedings below as well as in this appeal. 2. We should also record that Mr Hui SC (who argued the appeal together with Mr Lam and Mr Wong) informed this Court at the hearing of the appeal that he only acted for the two named individuals Mr Cheung and Mr Wong. Counsel also said he had no instructions to act for the partnership firm Tai Dou. 3. Subsequent to the Judgment, the President imposed sanction by way of pecuniary penalties by another judgment of 29 April 2020, [2020] HKCT 1 (the Sanction Judgment). There is an appeal by the Commission in respect of the penalties in CACV 143/2020. That appeal is to be heard later. 4. This Court is only concerned with the appeal against liability in the present appeal. A. Background 5. The relevant factual background can be taken from the Judgment as there is no appeal against those findings, at least as far as Tai Dou is concerned.1 As we shall explain, the focus of Mr Hui is whether the two named individual partners Mr Cheung and Mr Wong should be held liable in light of the absence of personal acts or mens rea constituting the breach of the first conduct rule on their part. 6. At the hearing, Mr Hui also confirmed that he did not challenge the conclusion of the President that the partnership Tai Dou Building Contractor was liable. Counsel confined his arguments in the appeal to the personal liabilities of Mr Cheung and Mr Wong. 7. The case concerned anti-competition arrangements in 2016 of several decoration contractors appointed by the Housing Authority under its Decoration Contractor System to divide the market for three buildings in Phase 1 of On Tat Estate, Kwun Tong which was then a new public housing estate. The findings regarding the anti-competitive scheme by which the breach of the first conduct rule was carried out were set out at [330]–[332] of the Judgment: [330] Between June and November 2016, the respondents, each an Appointed DC in On Tat Estate (Phase 1), made 1 Insofar as there were paragraphs in the Amended Notice of Appeal suggesting that some findings of fact were challenged in a general manner, they have not been pursued at the hearing of the appeal. 223 Competition Commission v W Hing Construction Co Ltd [2021] 3 HKLRD 219 Lam V-P

and gave effect to an agreement — the Floor Allocation Arrangement — with one another, whereby they were each allocated 4 floors in each of the 3 buildings in the pattern set out in §29 above for the purposes of taking up decoration business. They agreed not to actively seek business from tenants on floors allocated to the other respondents. If approached by those tenants, they would direct them to the respondents who had been allocated the relevant floors and, unless the tenants insisted, they would decline business from them. This agreement was implemented, resulting in the pattern of distribution of the flats decorated by the respondents as shown in Appendix 2. Such conduct consisted of the allocation of market for the supply of services and hence constituted ‘serious anti-competitive conduct’. [331] During the same period of time, the respondents made and gave effect to an agreement — the Package Price Arrangement — with one another, whereby they agreed on the prices of the Packages to be put on a joint Flyer for On Tat Estate (Phase 1). Each of them agreed to and contributed financially to the printing of the Flyers. The Flyers were used by the respondents for promotional purposes and distributed to tenants. The prices in the Flyer served as a starting point or anchoring reference point for negotiations with many if not all customers where their requirements included the Package items. In a number of contracts, the prices in the Flyer were or were near the final prices. Such conduct consisted of fixing the price for the supply of services and therefore also constituted ‘serious anti-competitive conduct’. [332] Both the Floor Allocation Arrangement and the Package Price Arrangement had the object of preventing, restricting or distorting competition in Hong Kong. 8. The actual works done by the respondents in accordance with the Floor Allocation Arrangement were set out at [28]–[30] of the judgment: [28] Between June and November 2016, out of the total of 2,582 flats in the 3 buildings, the respondents carried out decoration works for 867 flats. It is not entirely clear how many tenants moved in without decoration, or decorated the flats by themselves or their friends or relatives, or engaged commercial decoration contractors other than the Appointed DCs (outside contractors). [2021] 3 HKLRD 219 HONG KONG LAW REPORTS & DIGEST 224

[29] It has since been discovered that the distribution of the vast majority of the flats decorated by the 10 respondents fell into a strikingly regular pattern. According to this pattern, each respondent worked on 4 and only 4 floors in each of the 3 buildings. The 4 floors each respondent worked on in each building are each 10 floors apart, so that the last digit of the floor number is constant. The pattern is shown in the following table: Floors worked in Shing Tat House Floors worked in Oi Tat House Floors worked in Chun Tat House Appointed DC 8, 18, 28, 38 4, 14, 24, 34 1, 11, 21, 31 W Hing (R1) 9, 19, 29, 39 5, 15, 25, 35 2, 12 , 22, 32 Sun Spark (R2) 10, 20, 30, 40 6, 16, 26, 36 3, 13, 23, 33 Mau Hang (R3) 1, 11, 21, 31 7, 17, 27, 37 4, 14, 24, 34 Tai Dou (R4) 2, 12 , 22, 32 8, 18, 28, 38 5, 15, 25, 35 Kam Kee (R5) 3, 13, 23, 33 9, 19, 29, 39 6, 16, 26, 36 Hip Yick (R6) 4, 14, 24, 34 10, 20, 30, 40 7, 17, 27, 37 Tai Wah (R7) 5, 15, 25, 35 1, 11, 21, 31 8, 18, 28, 38 Wai Sun (R8) 6, 16, 26, 36 2, 12 , 22, 32 9, 19, 29, 39 Wide Project (R9) 7, 17, 27, 37 3, 13, 23, 33 10, 20, 30, 40 Luen Hop (R10) 225 Competition Commission v W Hing Construction Co Ltd [2021] 3 HKLRD 219 Lam V-P

832 of the 867 flats worked by the respondents follow this pattern, while 35 flats do not. … 9. Tai Dou was one of these appointed decoration contractors found by the President to have participated in the anti-competitive conduct. 10. The business of Tai Dou and its organisation was discussed by the President at [324]–[328] of the Judgment: [324] Tai Dou (R4) is a partnership consisting of 4 partners, being the two persons named in the Originating Notice of Application (namely, Cheung Yiu Fai Danny and Wong Tung Hoi) as well as Mr Pacquet Wong and Madam To Suet Chun.[39] It attempted at a very late stage to raise a similar argument but, for the reasons set out in this Tribunal’s Reasons for Decision dated 31 October 2018, was not allowed to do so. In so far as counsel sought in closing submissions to run the sub-contractor defence on behalf of Tai Dou (R4), I consider that the argument is inadmissible. [325] On the basis of its existing Response (filed jointly with the 2nd, 3rd, 6th, 7th, 8th and 10th respondents), Tai Dou (R4) admits that it attended the worship ceremony at the Site Office on 16 June 2016 and that lots were drawn there (though it is averred it was for the purpose of allocating desks in the Site Office). From the evidence, it can be seen that Pacquet Wong, an undisputed partner of Tai Dou (R4), signed the reply accepting the appointment as an Appointed DC, signed the surety bond, signed the Licence, signed and submitted to HKHA a list of staff and workers, attended the briefing session on 20 August 2015 and named KC Ho as the contact person. The evidence shows that those working in On Tat Estate (Phase 1) in the name of Tai Dou (R4) included KC Ho and Ma Yick Yin. [326] A witness statement of KC Ho was originally filed on behalf of Tai Dou (R4), in which he described himself as the General Manager of Tai Dou (R4). In early October 2018, Tai Dou (R4), having replaced its previous lawyers, indicated that it would not be calling KC Ho. The 2nd, 3rd, 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th and 10th respondents then indicated their intention to call him and also filed a witness statement of Ma Yick Yin. Eventually, KC Ho was not called to testify, and his statement is therefore to be disregarded. Ma Yick Yin was called, and said that he considered KC Ho the general manager of Tai Dou (R4), [2021] 3 HKLRD 219 HONG KONG LAW REPORTS & DIGEST 226

that he worked in On Tat Estate (Phase 1) in accordance with KC Ho’s instructions, and that he and the workers used business cards with Tai Dou (R4)’s name. There are also receipts issued to tenants bearing an oval chop stating ‘Tai Dou Building Co’ in both Chinese and English. [327] Despite KC Ho’s absence, based on all the other evidence there is no doubt that KC Ho and the team working there in the name of Tai Dou (R4) had engaged in the Floor Allocation Arrangement and the Package Price Arrangement. Counsel’s argument that there is a possibility that Tai Dou (R4) did not enter into any arrangement with others but simply obtained decoration work from the remaining floors because they were not allocated to any of the other respondents, seems to me, with respect, to be wholly unrealistic. [328] It is clear that the undertaking operating in On Tat Estate (Phase 1) was the partnership Tai Dou. The two named persons each being a partner must be held responsible as persons comprised in the undertaking. Counsel’s argument that there is nothing to show that they personally took part in or were aware of the conduct impugned is beside the point. 11. At footnote 39 at [324], the President noted as follows: It is not clear why only two of the four partners have been named as respondents, but the Commission accepts that as such, only the two named persons can be subjected to any sanctions and orders imposed by the Tribunal in these proceedings. B. The appeal 12. In the context of the present appeal, this Court (Lam V-P and Au JA) held in a judgment of 16 November 2020, [2020] HKCA 930 (the Striking Out Judgment) that it was an abuse of process for the 4th respondent to attempt to revive the sub-contractor defence (which had been held by the President to be inadmissible due to case management reasons) in the appeal when there was no appeal against the President’s case management ruling as set out in the judgment of 31 October 2018, [2018] HKCT 6. Parts of the Notice of Appeal were struck out by the judgment of 16 November 2020. 13. The 4th respondent filed an amended Notice of Appeal on 4 February 2021 to reflect the outcome of the Striking Out Judgment. 227 Competition Commission v W Hing Construction Co Ltd [2021] 3 HKLRD 219 Lam V-P

In the Striking Out Judgment, this Court identified the permissible arguments to be entertained in this appeal at [34], [36] and [37]: [34] In our judgment, any attempt by the 4th Respondent to rely upon the sub-contractor defence without appealing the Dismissal Decision constitutes an abuse of process and should be struck out. Without the sub-contractor defence, and in light of the pleaded case of the 4th Respondent as outlined above, we agree with Mr Chiu that the 4th Respondent should not be permitted to rely on any arguments in the appeal challenging the attribution of the acts of Mr KC Ho to the Partnership by the Tribunal. … [36] The position regarding the other parts of the Notice of Appeal is different. To some extent, the position on the face of the Notice of Appeal was not very clear because of the inherent ambiguity in the reference to ‘the 4th Respondent’: it can either be taken as a reference to the Partnership (viz the firm) or a reference to Mr Danny Cheung and Mr Wong Tung Hoi personally. [37] Based on Mr Lam’s submissions, we understand that the arguments raised in paragraphs 8(b), (c) and 9 are directed not at the finding against the Partnership (the firm), but rather at the finding that the 4th Respondent (i.e. Mr Cheung and Mr TH Wong) should be held liable because of the finding against the Partnership. In that sense, paragraphs 8(b), (c) and 9 do not engage the impermissible challenge of attribution which Mr Cheung and Mr TH Wong are precluded by the Dismissal Decision from advancing in this appeal. C. The identity of the 4th respondent 15. After reading the respective submissions of Mr Hui and Mr Beard QC (who appeared with Mr Chan SC and Mr Chiu for the Commission), this Court discerned that a fundamental difference between the two sides stems from their respective understanding as to who were the 4th respondent in these proceedings. At the hearing, upon query by the Court, Mr Hui intimated that his team only acted for the two named individual partners and as mentioned above had no instruction to act for Tai Dou, the firm. 16. On the other hand, the stance of the Commission is that Tai Dou, the partnership firm, was the 4th respondent and parties had always proceeded on that basis in the Tribunal. [2021] 3 HKLRD 219 HONG KONG LAW REPORTS & DIGEST 228

We agree with the Commission and reject the submissions of Mr Hui that only the two named individual partners were the 4th respondent but not the firm Tai Dou. 18. There had been changes of solicitors acting for the 4th respondent. In the Tribunal and in this appeal, the 4th respondent was represented by different firms of solicitors at different stages. However, at every stage of the proceedings before the Tribunal it was clear to all parties that though Mr Cheung and Mr Wong were also named, the undertaking against which the proceedings were brought by way of the 4th respondent was Tai Dou the firm. The liabilities of the named partners flowed from their capacity as partners of that firm, not in their capacity as individuals distinct from the firm. 19. At the time of the appeal hearing, the 4th respondent was represented by Henry Yu & Associates. This firm of solicitors came on record in this appeal by a Notice of Change of Solicitors of 1 February 2021. 20. Mr Hui only came on record when he signed the Amended Notice of Appeal dated 4 February 2021 after the Striking Out Judgment. 21. His juniors, Mr Lam and Mr Wong, acted for the 4th respondent in the striking out application in this Court on the instructions of Bryan Chan & Co. Bryan Chan & Co were the solicitors on record for the 4th respondent in this appeal by a Notice of Change of Solicitors of 2 October 2019. 22. When the original Notice of Appeal was filed on 14 June 2019, the 4th respondent was represented by another firm of solicitors Chan & Associates with another team of leading and junior counsel. 23. The junior counsel signing the original Notice of Appeal, Ms Ng, was also the counsel who acted for the 4th respondent at the trial and sanction hearing before the Tribunal. She was however instructed by two different solicitor firms: by Bryan Chan & Co at the sanction hearing and by Henry Wan & Yeung at the trial. 24. Another counsel Mr Dong acted for the 4th respondent on instruction from Henry Wan & Yeung at the pre-trial review. The application for amendments of the Response (to enable the 4th respondent to take the sub-contractor defence) was made at that hearing and rejected by the Tribunal in a judgment of 31 October 2018, [2018] HKCT 6 (the Amendment Judgment). 25. Henry Wan & Yeung actually came on record by a Notice of Change of Solicitors on 14 September 2018. Before that, the solicitors acted for the 4th respondent was JCC Cheung & Co. 26. JCC Cheung & Co became solicitors for the 4th respondent on 25 June 2018 by a Notice of Change of Solicitors. Before that, the solicitors on the record for the 4th respondent was Littlewoods. 229 Competition Commission v W Hing Construction Co Ltd [2021] 3 HKLRD 219 Lam V-P

At the hearing before us, after taking instructions from his clients Mr Hui informed this Court that instructions were given by Mr Cheung and Mr Wong to Henry Wan & Yeung and Bryan Chan & Co. However, counsel could not confirm the identity of the person(s) who gave instructions to JCC Cheung & Co and Littlewoods. 28. Whilst the naming of the 4th respondent in the Originating Notice of Application of 14 August 2017 as “Cheung Yiu Fai Danny and Wong Tung Hoi (in partnership trading as [Tai Dou]” and its description at para.4(4) was ambiguous, upon reading this document as a whole and in context, there is no doubt that the proceedings were brought against Tai Dou the firm. Thus, at paras.22–24, it was pleaded that the respondents (including the 4th respondent) were the Appointed Contractors appointed by the Housing Authority and each of them had received letter from it and executed a Licence. Tai Dou was so appointed, received such letter and executed such Licence, not Mr Cheung nor Mr Wong. Paragraph 33(1) referred to the allocation of floors to Tai Dou, not Mr Cheung nor Mr Wong. Paragraphs 37 and 38 referred to the performance of decoration works by the respondents and paras.40 and 44 referred to the use of the flyers by the respondents to promote their services to the tenants: again Tai Dou did so, not Mr Cheung nor Mr Wong. On the whole, the acts and conduct pleaded as contraventions of the first conduct rule were those of Tai Dou, not the acts or conduct of the individuals. 29. The Response of the 4th respondent was in the same document as the Response of the 2nd, 3rd, 6th, 7th, 8th and 10th respondents which was prepared and filed by Littlewoods on 28 September 2017. The Statement of Truth in that document was signed by Mr KC Ho as “General Manager” of Tai Dou. Thus, Tai Dou was regarded as the 4th respondent, not the two named individuals. It is also plain from the reading of the Response that those acting for the 4th respondent understood that Tai Dou (the firm) was the 4th respondent instead of the two named individual partners. At para.19 of the Response, it was pleaded that the respondents (thus including the 4th respondent) agreed to observe the terms of the Licence (which was executed by Tai Dou). At para.22(a), there was the plea that it was more economical and costs saving for the respondents to carry out decoration works for the flats at the same floor and at paras.22(b) and 32 that the respondents would accept and conduct businesses with the tenants. In the context of the 4th respondent, these pleas had to be referring to Tai Dou, not Mr Cheung and Mr Wong who did not as individuals carry out decoration works or accept business at this estate. Paragraph 29(f) referred to the obligation of the respondents as Appointed Contractors and paras.44 and 46 referred to the use of the flyers by [2021] 3 HKLRD 219 HONG KONG LAW REPORTS & DIGEST 230

the respondents. In the context of the 4th respondent, such references had to be taken as referring to Tai Dou rather than Mr Cheung and Mr Wong as individuals. 30. Had it been the belief of Mr Cheung and Mr Wong that they were sued as individuals without having the firm being made a party to the proceedings, their Response would not need to refer to the affairs of the firm. Instead, they should have set out their own lack of participation in the business concerning the decoration works in question. In that case, it would indeed be inappropriate for such response to be verified by a statement of truth made by Mr KC Ho instead of themselves. 31. Not surprisingly, the witness statement of the 4th respondent was made by Mr KC Ho on behalf of Tai Dou and filed with the Tribunal on 19 April 2018: see [7] of the Amendment Judgment. The evidence was prepared on the basis that Tai Dou was the 4th respondent. 32. As mentioned above, there was a late application for amendment of the Response by the 4th respondent to run the sub-contractor defence. It was rejected by the Tribunal in the Amendment Judgment. That application was filed by Henry Wan & Yeung for the 4th respondent. As acknowledged by Mr Hui, at that stage instructions came from Mr Cheung and Mr Wong. The contents of the proposed amended response were set out at [12] and [13] of the Amendment Judgment. In that document, a distinction was drawn between the 4th respondent (which the President understood to be Tai Dou) and its partners. The application was presented on the basis that Tai Dou was the 4th respondent and it was supported by three new witness statements: from Mr Cheung, Mr Wong and another partner Pacquet Wong. 33. At [16] of the Amendment Judgment, the President referred to the explanation put on behalf of Tai Dou as the 4th respondent as regards the delay in making the application. Pacquet Wong, the unnamed partner, authorised Mr KC Ho to handle the defence of the 4th respondent. In [17]–[22], the President further alluded to the involvement of Pacquet Wong (as partner of Tai Dou) being informed of the developments in the litigation by Mr KC Ho. The tenor of the Amendment Judgment clearly bears out that at that stage it was common ground that Tai Dou was the 4th respondent. 34. With the rejection of the amended Response, the trial proceeded on the original Response which, as we have seen, treated Tai Dou as the 4th respondent. Hence, naturally the President regarded Tai Dou to be the 4th respondent in the Judgment, see in particular [324]–[328]. In the sealed judgment of 17 May 2019 (filed on 9 July 2019), it was Tai Dou that was adjudged (as the 4th respondent) to have contravened s.6 of the Ordinance. 231 Competition Commission v W Hing Construction Co Ltd [2021] 3 HKLRD 219 Lam V-P

D. The liabilities of Mr Cheung and Mr Wong as partners of Tai Dou 35. The President explained the practical consideration for naming Mr Cheung and Mr Wong as partners at [303]: [303] While the competition rules target undertakings, in accordance with general legal principles, applications brought in the Tribunal and orders made by the Tribunal are necessarily addressed to legal entities. Thus ss 92–94 of the Ordinance allow the Commission to apply for and the Tribunal to make orders against persons who have contravened or been involved in a contravention of a competition rule. Accordingly, when liability is to be attached for infringement by an undertaking, the infringement must be imputed to one or more person against whom legal proceedings may be instituted and on whom orders including financial penalties may be imposed.2 36. In the Sanction Judgment at [79]–87, the President found it necessary to address the same point in light of the arguments advanced on behalf of Mr Cheung and Mr Wong at the Sanction hearing that they as “salaried partner” and “silent partner” should not be liable for the pecuniary penalty. For present purposes, in light of the submissions of Mr Hui, it would be useful to refer to

In contrast with these two cases, we are not here concerned with criminal offences and mens rea. As explained in the Judgment, while the competition rules apply to undertakings, ss 92–94 of the Ordinance allow the Commission to apply for, and the Tribunal to make, orders against persons who have contravened or been involved in a contravention of a competition rule. ‘Person’ as defined in s 2 of the Ordinance, in addition to the meaning given by s 3 of the Interpretation and General Clauses Ordinance (Cap 1), includes an undertaking. Where a partnership, as an undertaking, has contravened the first conduct rule, it seems to me generally that its partners as such are persons who have contravened the rule. An agreement entered into by a partnership is an agreement to which the partners are 2 Similar analysis was given by the President in the course of closing submissions when he invited submissions from counsel for the 4th respondent on the naming of two instead of all four partners of Tai Dou, see transcript of Day 16 at Appeal Bundle G p.1313–1314, in particular internal pp.20–22. See also the submissions of Mr Beard before the Tribunal on Day 17 at Appeal Bundle G p.1358, internal pp.58–59. [2021] 3 HKLRD 219 HONG KONG LAW REPORTS & DIGEST 232

jointly party. Here, the persons specifically named in the Notice of Application are Mr Cheung and Mr TH Wong in partnership trading as Tai Dou. They were undoubtedly partners of Tai Dou and were proceeded against as such. As partners of Tai Dou, they joined in making and giving effect to the agreements in question which contravened the rule and therefore likewise contravened the rule: cf Clode v Barnes [1974] 1 WLR

  1. Whether the application could have been brought

against the partnership as a ‘person’ without naming any individuals does not strictly arise. 37. In addition to pecuniary penalties, under s.94 the Tribunal can impose other sanctions against a person who has contravened or been involved in a contravention of a competition rule by way of orders specified in Sch.3 to the Ordinance. Such orders include orders restraining or prohibiting some specified acts or conduct3 or orders requiring some specified acts to be done.4 Hence, insofar as the Commission may wish to apply for such orders against any individual partner(s), there is a practical need to name some individuals for each undertaking. 38. It is clear from these paragraphs that the President held Mr Cheung and Mr Wong to be liable for the penalties by virtue of their roles as partners of Tai Dou instead of any personal acts and conducts on their parts as individuals. 39. In our judgment, such legal consequence flowed from the law relating to the liabilities of a partner for the civil obligations of a partnership. 40. Under s.155A of the Ordinance, a pecuniary penalty imposed under s.93 can be enforced in the same manner as a judgment of the Court of First Instance for the payment of money. Subsection (2)(b) further provides that the Registrar is to enforce payment as a judgment debt due to the Registrar. In other words, such pecuniary penalty can be enforced as a civil liability. 41. By reason of s.11 of the Partnership Ordinance (Cap.38), every partner in a firm is liable jointly with the other partners for all debts and obligations of the firm incurred while he is a partner. Thus, Mr Cheung and Mr Wong are jointly liable (together with other partners) for the pecuniary penalty imposed on Tai Dou. 42. Mr Hui submitted that such analysis fails to take account of the criminal nature of the proceedings. Relying on Lindley & Banks on Partnership (20th ed.), para.14-02, R v W Stevenson & Sons [2008] 2 Cr App R 14, [30]–[31], counsel submitted that in the criminal context, partners should be treated as a separate entity 3 See paras.1(b), (d), (g), (j), (l), (m), (q) of Sch.3. 4 See paras.1(c), (e), (h), (k), (n), (o), (p) of Sch.3. 233 Competition Commission v W Hing Construction Co Ltd [2021] 3 HKLRD 219 Lam V-P

from the partnership and in the present case Mr Cheung and Mr Wong were named as individuals and they were the only parties identified as the 4th respondent in the proceedings before the Tribunal. Thus, Mr Hui submitted, the President erred in finding liability on the basis that the 4th respondent was the partnership, Tai Dou. He said though it was possible for the Commission to proceed against Tai Dou, this was not the course adopted and it is now bound by the choice it made when instigating the proceedings. 43. Based on that premise, Mr Hui relied on the presumption for the need to prove mens rea (citing Hin Lin Yee v HKSAR (2010) 13 HKCFAR 142, [10], and Kulemesin v HKSAR (2013) 16 HKCFAR 195, [41], and submitted that there was no evidence to establish the mens rea of Mr Cheung and Mr Wong in the contravention of the first conduct rule as found by the Tribunal. These partners should not be held criminally liable for the acts of another partner without proof of their own requisite mens rea for such contravention, see Riley v Director of Public Prosecutions [2017] 1 WLR 505, [32]. 44. With respect, these submissions are flawed and we cannot accept the same. 45. First and foremost, though the allegations of contravention are, as held by the President, to be classified as criminal charge for the purpose of s.8 art.11 of the Hong Kong Bill of Rights Ordinance (Cap.383) (art.11), it does not follow that the contravention of the first conduct rule is to be regarded as a criminal offence for the purpose of domestic law incorporating the requirement of mens rea as submitted by Mr Hui. Unlike the stricter standard of proof, the requirement of mens rea is not one of the safeguards prescribed by art.11. It is thus a matter of substantive criminal law and it depends on whether the legislature has created a statutory offence of contravention of the first conduct rule. 46. As submitted by Mr Beard, it is legally possible for such allegations to be determined in civil proceedings (as classified under domestic law) notwithstanding the attraction of art.11 protection based on the autonomous human right definition of criminal charge, see Secretary for Justice v Cheung Kai Yin [2016] 4 HKLRD 367, [36] and [37]. 47. In that case, this Court held at [25] that the applicability of a stricter standard of proof (by reason of the safeguard under art.11) is a separate question from determining if the proceedings is essentially criminal in character as a matter of domestic law. 48. Likewise, the attraction of the safeguards under art.11 (which guarantees the procedural fairness of a trial on a criminal charge by way of human right protection) is a distinct question from determining if the Ordinance has created an offence of contravention of the first conduct rule with all the incidental characteristics of a [2021] 3 HKLRD 219 HONG KONG LAW REPORTS & DIGEST 234

criminal offence. The latter is essentially a question of statutory construction. 49. Adopting such approach, it is plain to us that the Ordinance does not create an offence of contravention of the first conduct rule. The only criminal offences in the Ordinance are those specified in ss.52–55 and ss.172–175. Contravention of the first conduct rule is not included in those parts of the Ordinance. It is also provided specifically in s.171(1) that criminal proceedings for an offence under the Ordinance may not be brought in the Tribunal. Persons charged with such offences would be prosecuted in the criminal courts. It is also pertinent to note that the prosecution of such offences is not within the scope of function and power of the Commission under ss.130 and 133 of the Ordinance. 50. In contrast, proceedings for contravention of the first conduct rule must be brought in the Tribunal and application for pecuniary penalty is only to be brought by the Commission, see ss.92, 108 and 109 of the Ordinance. 51. Subject to modifications in the Competition Tribunal Rules (Cap.619D, Sub.Leg.) (the Rules), proceedings in the Tribunal are to follow the practice and procedure of the Court of First Instance in the exercise of its civil jurisdiction: see s.144 of the Ordinance and s.4 of the Rules (which provide for the application of the Rules of the High Court (Cap.4A, Sub.Leg.) to proceedings in the Tribunal). The appeal mechanism as set out in ss.154 and 155 is similar to the one for appeals from a civil judgment of the Court of First Instance, with leave requirement for interlocutory appeals. 52. Thus, there cannot be any prosecution by the Secretary for Justice in a criminal court in respect of the contravention of the first conduct rule. 53. Sections 45 and 148(3) of the Ordinance which provide for inadmissibility of answers given under compulsion in subsequent proceedings refer to criminal proceedings (under s.45(3)(b)) and proceedings for pecuniary penalty (under s.45(3)(a)) separately. Thus, the legislature did not regard proceedings for pecuniary penalty as criminal proceedings. 54. As we have already mentioned, the pecuniary penalty ordered by the Tribunal shall, as provided under s.155A, be enforced in the same way as a civil judgment. 55. As stated in the preamble to the Ordinance, the purpose of the legislation is to prohibit conduct that prevents, restricts or distorts competition and to prohibit mergers that substantially lessen competition. In respect of a contravention of the first conduct rule, the Ordinance provides various options and means to achieve such objective by way of enforcement actions by the Commission: 235 Competition Commission v W Hing Construction Co Ltd [2021] 3 HKLRD 219 Lam V-P

(a) Acceptance of a commitment by the Commission from a person and the enforcement of such commitment under Division 1 of Pt.4 of the Ordinance; (b) Issuance of infringement notices by the Commission under Division 2 of Pt.4 of the Ordinance offering not to bring proceedings on condition that the persons involved make a commitment to comply with the requirements of the notice; (c) The Commission may make a leniency agreement with a person in exchange for his co-operation in an investigation or in proceedings under Division 3 of Pt.4 of the Ordinance; (d) The Commission may under Division 4 of Pt.4 of the Ordinance issue a warning notice to an undertaking requiring it to cease its contravening conduct and not to repeat the same; (e) The Commission may apply to the Tribunal for pecuniary penalty under Division 2 of Pt.6 of the Ordinance; (f) Under s.94 in Division 3 of Pt.6, the Tribunal, whether or not it makes an order for pecuniary penalty, can make other types of order as specified in Sch.3 to the Ordinance; (g) Under s.95 in Division 3 of Pt.6, the Tribunal can also make interim orders pending its determination of an application under s.94; and (h) Under Division 5 of Pt.6, the Commission can apply to the Tribunal for disqualification order against a person to debar such person from being a director of a company or in any way be concerned or take part in the promotion, formation or management of a company for a specified period not exceeding 5 years if such person is a director of company which has contravened a competition rule and such person’s conduct as director makes him unfit. 56. Options (a)–(d) are enforcement options in the hands of the Commission and cannot be regarded as actions in prosecuting a criminal offence. As regards options (e)–(h), there will be proceedings in the Tribunal. Since the Tribunal does not have any criminal jurisdiction (as it has been made clear in s.171), the applications for such relief cannot be regarded as the prosecution of a criminal offence. 57. Reading the Ordinance as a whole, the contravention of the first conduct rule is not regarded as a criminal offence in the statutory scheme to combat anti-competitive conduct. This accords with the conclusions reached by the President in Competition Commission v TH Lee Book Co Ltd [2020] HKCT 12, [2021] 2 HKLRD E2, [2020] HKEC 4147, [7], and in the Sanction Judgment at [129]–[133]. [2021] 3 HKLRD 219 HONG KONG LAW REPORTS & DIGEST 236

There is therefore no basis for Mr Hui to import the requirement of mens rea on the part of the individual partners into proceedings for pecuniary penalty under s.93. There is no room for the application of the principle in R v W Stevenson & Sons and Riley v Director of Public Prosecutions (which concerned convictions and trials of criminal offences) and our analysis above5 as to the civil nature of the liabilities of each partner for the acts of the firm is not undermined by that case. 59. Lest it be thought that the President had not considered the state of knowledge of Tai Dou as to the anti-competition arrangements, such suggestion is refuted by a reference to [325]–[327] of the Judgment. In particular, the President made this finding at [327]: [327] Despite KC Ho’s absence, based on all the other evidence there is no doubt that KC Ho and the team working there in the name of Tai Dou (R4) had engaged in the Floor Allocation Arrangement and the Package Price Arrangement. Counsel’s argument that there is a possibility that Tai Dou (R4) did not enter into any arrangement with others but simply obtained decoration work from the remaining floors because they were not allocated to any of the other respondents, seems to me, with respect, to be wholly unrealistic. 60. Before us, Mr Hui did not challenge this finding and he accepted that there is no basis for disturbing the President’s conclusion on liability against Tai Dou. 61. Hence, with our rejection of the submission that the proceedings involved a trial of a criminal offence, it is plain that Mr Hui’s contention based on lack of finding of mens rea on the part of Mr Cheung and Mr Wong has no merit. E. Order 81 Rule 1 62. Coming back to the naming of the 4th respondent, Mr Hui referred to a commentary in Hong Kong Civil Procedure 2021, Vol.1 at para.81/1/10 which suggested that because the liability of partners is joint and not several, “a suit by or against an ordinary partnership would have been defective for want of parties unless all the partners were before the court”. 63. It follows, Mr Hui submitted, that the Commission could not have been suing in respect of the joint liability stemming from the acts of the Tai Dou the firm since it was conceded by Mr Beard before the Tribunal that the Commission was not proceeding against 5 At [39]–[41] above. 237 Competition Commission v W Hing Construction Co Ltd [2021] 3 HKLRD 219 Lam V-P

the other two unnamed partners.6 Therefore, the Commission was actually suing the two named partners as individuals regarding their own personal involvement in respect of the contravention of the first conduct rule. 64. With respect, we cannot accept these submissions. 65. Firstly, such submission ignored the reality as discussed in Section C above. All parties had proceeded in the Tribunal on the basis that Tai Dou the firm was the 4th respondent and Mr Cheung and Mr Wong were proceeded against by virtue of their capacity as partners of Tai Dou. In such circumstances, if there were irregularities in the naming of the 4th respondent, we see no difficulty in granting leave for such irregularities to be rectified insofar as it is necessary to do justice between the parties in light of the fact that Tai Dou had actually been party to the proceedings in substance and those acting for Mr Cheung and Mr Wong in the Tribunal were fully aware of the nature of the claims against them. 66. In so saying, we have not forgotten the concession of Mr Beard on Day 17 which was also taken up by the President at footnote 39 of the Judgment. However, the concession seemed to have been made on the basis it is legally permissible to sue in respect of the liability of the firm with the naming of some but not all the partners. Likewise, the President proceeded on that basis in the Judgment and the Sanction Judgment. As far as we are aware, no point had been taken before the Tribunal that one cannot pursue an application in respect of the liability of the firm without proceeding against all the partners. 67. This bring us to our second ground for rejecting Mr Hui’s submissions. As a matter of law, there is no rigid rule that in advancing a claim on a joint liability the plaintiff or applicant must join all the parties who were jointly liable to the proceedings. However, if objection is taken by a defendant that there were other parties who were jointly liable, the court may consider if such other persons should be joined as parties to the proceedings in the interest of justice. Thus, in Robinson v Geisel [1894] 2 QB 685, the English Court of Appeal refused to grant a stay of the action against some but not all of the joint guarantors because the plaintiff had done everything in his power to serve the remaining joint guarantor without success. In the context of legal proceedings against a partnership, it means that a plaintiff can sue some but not all the partners in respect of the liabilities arising from the business of the firm. Depending on the circumstances of the case, on the application of the defendants, the court may direct the other partners to be joined as parties, see Halsbury's Laws of England (5th ed., 2020), Vol.79, para.84; Lindley & Banks on Partnership (20th ed.), 6 As recorded in the transcript of Day 17 at Appeal Bundle G p.1358, internal p.58. [2021] 3 HKLRD 219 HONG KONG LAW REPORTS & DIGEST 238

paras.14-43 and 14-44. But the cause of action would not be defeated by non-joinder of parties. 68. As Mr Cheung and Mr Wong did not complain about non-joinder of the other two partners in the Tribunal and there was no application for staying the proceedings on that ground, it is not necessary for us to consider whether in the present case the other two partners should have been joined if such application were made. It suffices for us to hold that in light of the above analysis, Mr Cheung and Mr Wong cannot now rely on the omission to name the other two partners as a ground for challenging the finding of the Tribunal against them in respect of the contravention by Tai Dou. 69. The President did not find it necessary to address the question whether orders could be made against a firm under ss.93–96 as a “person” without naming any individuals. We are sure that the President has not overlooked O.81 r.1 which, as far as we can see, is applicable to proceedings in the Competition Tribunal by reason of s.4 of the Competition Tribunal Rules as there is nothing those rules negating such application. As explained by the President,7 the definition of “person” in the Ordinance is wide enough to cover a partnership. Hence, in terms of proceedings in the Tribunal in general, it is permissible to name a partnership as a respondent without naming all the partners. The effect would be the same as the naming of a firm in civil proceedings in the High Court, viz all the partners are treated to have been joined as respondents. 70. When the individual partners are not named, the enforcement of a judgment against the firm would be subject to the conditions laid down under O.81 r.5. 71. We believe that the President had the practicalities of enforcement of orders other than that of pecuniary penalty in mind (as alluded to by us at [37]) when he eschewed expressing a view on the feasibility of suing a firm without naming the partners. 72. In the present case, as far as we are aware, the Tribunal has only imposed sanction by way of pecuniary penalty. In such context, we cannot see any difficulty regarding enforcement pursuant to O.81 r.5 even if the individual partners were not named. 73. Mr Hui submitted that it was unjust that the Commission only targeted against Mr Cheung and Mr Wong in seeking pecuniary penalty. With respect, counsel failed to take account of: (a) As the penalty was ordered against the 4th respondent, the assets of the firm Tai Dou would be subject to execution; (b) Even assuming that enforcement actions were taken against the personal estates of Mr Cheung and Mr Wong, they would 7 At 87 of the Sanction Judgment, cited at [36] above. 239 Competition Commission v W Hing Construction Co Ltd [2021] 3 HKLRD 219 Lam V-P

have the right to seek indemnity or contribution from their partners under the general law of partnership; and (c) As partners of Tai Dou, there is no injustice in sanction being imposed against Mr Cheung and Mr Wong. F. Disposal of the appeal 74. For the above reasons, we dismissed the appeal with costs at the hearing on 5 May 2021. G. The Respondent’s Notice 75. By the Respondent’s Notice, the Commission asked this Court to reverse the President’s ruling on the standard of proof in proceedings for pecuniary penalty. In Competition Commission v Nutanix Hong Kong Ltd [2019] HKCT 2, [2019] 3 HKC 307, the President held that the standard of proof is proof beyond reasonable doubt. That judgment was handed down on the same date as the Judgment. At [39] of the Judgment, the President adopted the same view in the present case. The Commission sought to argue that the standard of proof should be the civil standard of balance of probabilities with cogent evidence being required commensurably with the seriousness of the allegations. 76. Notwithstanding the sustained efforts of Mr Beard, we were not persuaded that we should determine this issue in this appeal when we had already concluded that the appeal by Mr Cheung and Mr Wong should be dismissed on the other grounds set out above. As the Commission is understandably anxious to have the question of standard of proof to be reconsidered at the appellant level, we shall explain in greater detail the reasons for our refusal to determine the issue in this appeal. 77. We have read the judgment in Competition Commission v Nutanix Hong Kong Ltd and skeleton submissions of Mr Beard and Mr Hui and discussed the same amongst ourselves before the hearing. Our preliminary view was as follows. 78. Since it is common ground that proceedings for pecuniary penalty involved a determination of criminal charge for the purpose of art.11, the implication of art.11(1) on standard of proof as explained by the Court of Final Appeal in Koon Wing Yee v Insider Dealing Tribunal (2008) 11 HKCFAR 170 has to be considered. As mentioned in the course of hearing, one should start from the position that in order to be art.11 compliant criminal standard of proof is the norm for the determination of criminal charges. 79. It is possible to have a statute providing otherwise if the relaxation of standard of proof can be justified according to the proportionality test. However, it is also common ground that the Ordinance does not contain any provision which explicitly spells [2021] 3 HKLRD 219 HONG KONG LAW REPORTS & DIGEST 240

out the standard of proof for penalty proceedings. Hence, one must first consider if the Ordinance has laid down by necessary implication that the standard of proof should be the civil standard before one considers the proportionality of such relaxation. 80. In short, if one cannot conclude by way of statutory interpretation that the Ordinance has provided for the civil standard to apply, the criminal standard should be applicable by virtue of the principle of legality as explained by Lord Hoffmann in R v Secretary of State for the Home Department, ex p Simms [2000] 2 AC 115,

  1. If it is held that criminal standard of proof applies as a matter

of statutory interpretation, no issue of proportionality arises. 81. The relevant approach for determining by way of statutory construction if a fundamental right like the one provided for under art.11(1) has been impliedly abrogated was discussed by the Supreme Court in Beghal v Director of Public Prosecutions [2016] AC 88 and recently applied by this Court in Kot See For v Lam Man Cheung [2021] 2 HKLRD 263. At [42] of the latter case, the Court held that purposive construction should consider whether the statutory objective would be nullified if full effect is given to the fundamental right. 82. The question of implied abrogation or derogation was addressed by the President at [63]–[67] of Competition Commission v Nutanix Hong Kong Limited. He could not find such implication from the fact that civil procedure is adopted for the proceedings and the legislative materials. At [68]–[71], the President summarised the other points canvassed by the Commission but held that they were of no avail when there is no express provision or necessary implication for the application of civil standard. 83. One of these points was the difficulty in meeting the criminal standard of proof in the potentially complex and technical nature of the issues in competition proceedings, see [68]–[69]. On our reading of Mr Beard’s skeleton submissions, counsel relied strongly on this point to contend that the Ordinance has relaxed the standard of proof by necessary implication by virtue of the potential frustration of effective enforcement of competition law by a criminal standard of proof. 84. Whilst we can see that there is a reasonably arguable basis (and we put it no higher than that) for suggesting the President might not have given sufficient consideration to the potential frustration of effective enforcement in assessing if there is derogation by necessary implication (since he did not discuss this in the context of addressing the issue of necessary implication at [68]–[71] and this could be attributable to how the matter was argued before him by another leading counsel in Nutanix), we find it very difficult to assess the validity of this contention based on consideration of potential frustration on a high level of abstraction. With due respect, 241 Competition Commission v W Hing Construction Co Ltd [2021] 3 HKLRD 219 Lam V-P

we do not think it is sufficient for us to adopt some passages from the decisions of the UK Competition Appeal Tribunal8 or a textbook9 on competition law as making good this contention. 85. We are not suggesting Mr Beard intended to invite us to take such a course. Counsel indicated that he would need to take us through the scheme of the Ordinance and the elements that the Commission would have to establish in respect of each type of anti-competition conducts and the different types of evidence the Tribunal would have to assess. 86. Whilst we would not doubt that, with his immense experience in this field, Mr Beard could provide the Court with able assistance, and in so doing, the actual facts and evidence in the present appeal are also relevant to our assessment of whether this appeal afforded a good opportunity to embark on such exercise. On the facts, the President was able to conclude that the contravention of the first conduct rule was proved on the criminal standard. We could discern nothing in the evidence that had been adduced in the trial which can give rise to potential frustration of the enforcement objective because the criminal standard of proof was applied. 87. Mr Beard urged upon us that there are other cases in which the different standards of proof could make a difference, not only in respect of actual penalty proceedings but also in respect of the Commission’s investigation and decisions on enforcement options. 88. We took such submission into account. However, in the end, we came to the clear conclusion that it would be much better for the argument of potential frustration of enforcement objective to be tested in an actual case where the application of criminal standard of proof would have a real impact. And it would also be much better if the Competition Tribunal (with its expertise in handling competition cases) have had the opportunity of dealing with this issue squarely and fairly with regard to actual (instead of conceptual or notional) evidential assessment in regard to specific pieces of evidence on a particular competition issue before the point is considered by the Court of Appeal. 89. In this connection, we disagreed with Mr Beard’s concern as to the futility of re-arguing the issue of standard of proof before the Competition Tribunal in light of the judgments in Nutanix and the present case. As we have highlighted above, it would appear that the angle of potential frustration of enforcement objective had not been fully canvassed, perhaps not surprisingly in light of the evidence and the contentious issues in these cases. 90. Mr Beard also advanced arguments based on the statutory scheme of the Ordinance and its similarities with overseas competition regimes where civil standard of proof is applied. 8 Napp Pharmaceutical Holding Ltd v Director General of Fair Trading [2002] CAT 1; JJB Sports PLC v Office Fair Trading [2004] CAT 17. 9 Whish & Bailey, Competition Law (9th ed.). [2021] 3 HKLRD 219 HONG KONG LAW REPORTS & DIGEST 242

However, there are also some special features in our Ordinance which we have highlighted in our directions of 4 May 2021: (a) There is no parallel regime for criminal offence in respect of anti-competitive conduct as in England; and (b) In ss.45, 147 and 148, proceedings for pecuniary penalties are treated in the same manner as proceedings for other criminal offences under the Ordinance. 91. Also, at the time when the Competition Bill was debated, the legislature (and the administration which put forward the bill) was aware of the Court of Final Appeal’s judgment in Koon Wing Yee v Insider Dealing Tribunal. Though the President attached little weight to it, the criminal standard of proof and Koon Wing Yee had been alluded to during the legislative debates. Notwithstanding this, the legislature did not include any specific provision in the Ordinance to stipulate that civil standard of proof is to be applied. 92. We do not express any view on these matters as we have not heard counsel on whether these features would affect, and if so how, the assessment of the implied derogation point. However, these may require further research and arguments than those which have already been placed before us. 93. Mr Beard relied on the observations of the Ma CJHC (as he then was) in Chit Fai Motors Co Ltd v Commissioner for Transport [2004] 1 HKC 465, [20], to invite this Court to address the issue of standard of proof notwithstanding that we had been able to determine the appeal without doing so. In particular, counsel emphasised that this is a recurrent issue which has great public importance in relation to the development of competition law in Hong Kong. 94. We respectfully agree with Ma CJHC that this Court still retains a discretion to hear an appeal even though the lis between the parties has gone (whether by way of settlement or determination on other grounds). We also accept that there are cases where it is appropriate to exercise such discretion because of the great public interest in having the issue determined at the appellate level. However, the Court must still consider whether the appeal is the appropriate occasion to determine such important issue. 95. As highlighted by Lord Slynn of Hadley in R v Secretary of State for the Home Department, ex p Salem [1999] 1 AC 450, 457 (and cited by Ma CJHC at sub-para.(3) in [20] of Chit Fai), even in the public law context, the discretion must be exercised with caution. After all, it would not be in the public interest to have a highly controversial but important point determined when the Court does not find the underlying materials before it provides a solid basis for assessing the competing arguments. 243 Competition Commission v W Hing Construction Co Ltd [2021] 3 HKLRD 219 Lam V-P

Though the question of standard of proof, as analysed above, can be said to be a matter of statutory construction, for the reasons we have given above, the implied derogation point is not an issue which we found appropriate to be determined in the present appeal. We therefore declined to embark on such course. Certificate for three counsel 97. We have already ordered Mr Cheung and Mr Wong to pay the costs of the Commission in this appeal. The outstanding issue is whether there should be certificate for three counsel. 98. In light of our above reasons for determining the appeal and declining to address the question of standard of proof, we would only give the Commission certificate for two counsel. Reported by Robert Drake [2021] 3 HKLRD 219 HONG KONG LAW REPORTS & DIGEST 244

842 HKSAR and Chan Wai Yip Bokhary, Chan and Ribeiro PJJ, Litton and Sir Anthony Mason NPJJ Final Appeal No 4 of 2010 (Criminal) 25 November, 13 December 2010 Criminal law and procedure — conspiracy to defraud — auction by public body — restricted auction of cooked food stalls — secret pre-auction allotment and agreement by defendants not to bid against each other for stalls in order to knock down to reserve price — “knock out” agreements, that is agreements to keep price down, were lawful — valid and enforceable contract could not itself be “dishonest” for purposes of criminal conspiracy to defraud Ds were convicted of conspiracy to defraud. Ds, tenants of cooked food stalls, were given priority to bid for new stalls in a restricted auction held exclusively for them by the Food and Environmental Hygiene Department (FEHD). The reserve price for stalls was fixed at 75% of the market rent. Ds pre-allotted stalls amongst themselves and agreed that no one else would bid for the same stall. At the auction, there was no competitive bidding and each stall was knocked down to the sole bidder at the reserve price. Ds’ appeal against conviction was allowed by the Court of Appeal, which held that an agreement not to compete at an auction was valid and enforceable. At issue was whether a secret agreement between potential bidders not to compete at an auction, or such an agreement followed by participation by such bidders at the auction, fell within the formulation of the common law offence of conspiracy to defraud as formulated in Mo Yuk Ping v HKSAR (2007) 10 HKCFAR 386, with the focus on “dishonest means”. Held, dismissing the appeal, that: (Per Sir Anthony Mason NPJ) (1) A long line of English authorities, which went back almost 160 years, was to the effect that “knock out” agreements, that is agreements to keep the price down, were lawful. A contract which was valid and enforceable could not itself be “dishonest” for the purposes of criminal conspiracy to defraud. Not only had the relevant decisions stood for a very long time, they almost certainly had been taken to represent the law of conspiracy in Hong Kong. If there was to be a change, then it was a matter entirely for the legislature (Galton v Emuss [1844] 1 Coll 243, Re Carew’s Estate [1858] 26 Beav 187, Heffer v Martyn (1867) 36 LJ Ch 373, Jones v North (1874–75) LR 19 Eq 426, Rawlings v General Trading Co [1921] 1 KB 635, Cohen v Roche [1927] 1 KB

(2010) 13 HKCFAR 843 HKSAR v Chan Wai Yip Litton NPJ 169, Pallant v Morgan [1953] Ch 43, Harrop v Thompson & Another [1975] 1 WLR 545, Norris v Government of the United States of America [2008] 1 AC 920 applied). (See paras.54–75.) (2) “Knock-out” agreements in restraint of trade might be void and unenforceable as between the parties, but not illegal. So long as traders individually or collectively were pursuing their own business interests without infringing the rights of others or intending to do them harm, that pursuit was legitimate, even if, by deliberately lowering prices, it drove others out of business (Mogul Steamship Co Ltd v McGregor Gow & Co (1888) LR 21 QBD 544 (CA), Mogul Steamship Co Ltd v McGregor Gow & Co [1892] AC 25 (HL), Rawlings v General Trading Co [1921] 1 KB 635 applied; R v De Berenger (1814) 3 M & S 67, Scott v Brown, Doering, McNab & Co [1892] 2 QB 724 explained). (See paras.71–73.) (3) The FEHD could protect itself from “knock out” agreements by fixing a reserve (and not disclosing it) and reserving the right to bid and withdraw (Harrop v Thompson [1975] 1 WLR 545 applied). (See para.76.)  (Per Litton NPJ) (4) Where an agreement not to compete in an auction had no deceptive element, the fact that it was made in secret did not by itself render it dishonest in law: the potential purchasers had not set out to do something lawful by unlawful means. Persons attending an auction owed no obligation to the vendor to compete with each other; nor were they required by law to ensure the vendor achieved the highest possible price. Further, there was no suggestion that the pre-allotment arrangement was aimed at harming the FEHD’s economic interests. Ds were looking to their own economic interests (Rawlings v General Trading Co [1921] 1 KB 635 applied). (See paras.16, 24–27.) 刑法與刑事訴訟程序— 串謀欺詐罪— 公營機構舉行投標— 局限性競 投熟食檔位— 各名被告人於競投進行前私下分配檔位,並協定不會互 相就檔位出價,以期用底價投得檔位— 此等「壓價」協議乃屬合法— 就串謀欺詐的刑事罪行而言,有效和可予以強制執行的合約本身不能構 成「不誠實」 本案各名被告人經原審後被判串謀欺詐罪成立。案情指他們是各個熟食 檔位的租戶,而食物環境衛生署(下稱「食環署」)專為他們舉行一場局 限性投標,讓他們可優先競投新的熟食檔位。各個檔位的底價,定為市 值租金的75%。投標進行前,每名被告人自行認投一個檔位,而他們協 定無人會競投同一個檔位。投標過程中,每一個檔位均無人出價競投, 結果由唯一承價人以底價投得。各名被告人不服定罪,提出上訴,而上 訴法庭判處各人上訴得直,並裁定各人同意不在投標過程中出價競投的 協議有效和可予以強制執行。控方不服裁決,上訴至終審法院,所涉爭 議點為:參與投標人士私下協定不在投標過程中出價競投的秘密協議或 該等人士訂立該等協議後參與投標,是否合乎Mo Yuk Ping v HKSAR HKSAR v Chan Wai Yip

844 HONG KONG COURT OF FINAL APPEAL REPORTS (2010) 13 HKCFAR (2007) 10 HKCFAR 386一案對普通法下「串謀欺詐」罪行的表述,特別 是當中關於「不誠實方式」的元素? 裁決—駁回上訴(判詞由非常任法官梅師賢爵士作出): (1) 根據過往近160年的英國案例典據,「壓價」協議乃屬合法。就串謀 欺詐的刑事罪行而言,有效和可予以強制執行的合約本身不能構成 「不誠實」。有關的案例典據不但歷史悠久,而且幾乎肯定已被視 為代表關於串謀罪的香港法律。假如要改變這方面的法律,則須 由立法機關全權決定如何進行(引用Galton v Emuss [1844] 1 Coll  243,Re Carew’s Estate [1858] 26 Beav 187,Heffer v Martyn (1867) 36 LJ Ch 373,Jones v North (1874—75) LR 19 Eq 426,Rawlings v General Trading Co [1921] 1 KB 635,Cohen v Roche [1927] 1 KB 169,Pallant v Morgan [1953] Ch 43,Harrop v Thompson & Another [1975] 1 WLR 545,Norris v Government of the United States of America [2008] 1 AC 920)。(見第54至75段) (2) 用以限制貿易的「壓價」協議雖然在協議各方之間可能無效和不可 予以強制執行,但並非不合法。從商人士個別或集體地謀求本身 商業利益的做法,只要是沒有侵犯他人權利或意圖損害他人權益, 便屬合法,即使從商人士藉著故意降價而令其他競爭對手無法生 存,情況亦然(引用Mogul Steamship Co Ltd v McGregor Gow & Co (1888) LR 21 QBD 544 (CA),Mogul Steamship Co Ltd v McGregor Gow & Co [1892] AC 25 (HL),Rawlings v General Trading Co [1921] 1 KB 635;R v De Berenger (1814) 3 M & S 67,Scott v Brown, Doering, McNab & Co [1892] 2 QB 724予以解釋)。(見第71至73 段) (3) 為免受「壓價」協議影響,食環署可釐定而不披露投標項目的底 價,以及保留出價和撤回投標項目的權利(引用Harrop v Thompson [1975] 1 WLR 545)。(見第76段) (判詞由非常任法官烈顯倫作出) (4) 對於不在投標過程中出價競投的協議,假如該協議不帶有欺詐成 分,則該協議即使是秘密達成,本身也不會令該協議構成法律所 指的不誠實:準買家並未開始以不合法方式做合法的事情。出席 投標的人士並不對賣家負有互相競投的責任;法律亦沒有要求該等 人士確保賣家以可行範圍內的最高價格賣出投標項目。此外,案中 沒有證據顯示各名被告人於投標進行前自行認投檔位的用意是損害 食環署的經濟利益。各名被告人所關注的,不外是本身的經濟利益 (引用Rawlings v General Trading Co [1921] 1 KB 635)。(見第16、 24至27段) Mr Kevin Zervos SC, Director of Public Prosecutions, Mr Wesley Wong, Deputy Director of Public Prosecutions, and Mr Michael Wong, Senior Public Prosecutor (Manager), for the applicant. Mr Martin Lee SC, Mr Siu Him Lee and Ms Bonnie Tam, instructed by JCC Cheung & Co, for the third, fifth to ninth, thirteenth, fifteenth to seventeenth respondents. Mr Kenny Chan, instructed by Liu, Chan & Lam for the fourth, tenth and eleventh respondents.

(2010) 13 HKCFAR 845 HKSAR v Chan Wai Yip Litton NPJ HKSAR v Chan Wai Yip Mr Gibson Shaw, instructed by Lo, Wong & Tsui for the twelfth respondent. The first, second and fourteenth respondents in person (present). Legislation mentioned in the judgment Auctions (Bidding Agreements) Act 1927 [England] s.1(1) Crimes Ordinance (Cap.200) s.159C(6) Hong Kong Court of Final Appeal Ordinance (Cap.484) s.32(2) Magistrates Ordinance (Cap.227) s.118(1)(d) Prevention of Bribery Ordinance (Cap.201) s.7 Cases cited in the judgment Carew’s Estate, Re [1858] 26 Beav 187, (1861) 54 ER 894 Cohen v Roche [1927] 1 KB 169 Galton v Emuss (1844) 1 Coll 243, 63 ER 402 Harrop v Thompson [1975] 1 WLR 545, [1975] 2 All ER 94 Heffer v Martyn [1867] 36 LJ Ch 373 Jones v North (1874–1875) LR 19 Eq 426 Mo Yuk Ping v HKSAR (2007) 10 HKCFAR 386, [2007] 3 HKLRD 750, [2007] 4 HKC 107 Mogul Steamship Co Ltd v McGregor, Gow & Co (1889) 23 QBD 598 Mogul Steamship Co Ltd v McGregor, Gow & Co [1892] AC 25 Norris v Government of the USA [2008] UKHL 16, [2008] 1 AC 920, [2008] 2 WLR 673, [2008] 2 All ER 1103 Pallant v Morgan [1953] Ch 43, [1952] 2 All ER 951 R v De Berenger (1814) 3 M & S 67, 105 ER 536, [1814–23] All ER Rep 513 R v Ghosh [1982] 1 QB 1053, [1982] 3 WLR 110, [1982] 2 All ER 689 R v Goldshield Group Plc [2008] UKHL 17, [2009] 1 WLR 458, [2009] 2 All ER 737 Rawlings v General Trading Co [1920] 3 KB 30 Rawlings v General Trading Co [1921] 1 KB 635 Scott v Brown, Doering, McNab & Co [1892] 2 QB 724 Scott v Metropolitan Police Commissioner [1975] AC 819, [1974] 3 WLR 741, [1974] 3 All ER 1032 Shum Kwok Sher v HKSAR (2002) 5 HKCFAR 381, [2002] 2 HKLRD 793, [2002] 3 HKC 117 Wai Yu Tsang v R [1992] 1 AC 269, [1991] 3 WLR 100, [1991] 4 All ER 664 Welham v Director of Public Prosecutions [1961] AC 103, [1960] 2 WLR 669, [1960] 1 All ER 805 Wickens v Evans (1829) 3 Y & J 318, 148 ER 1201 Cases in the List of Authorities not cited in the judgment A-G for Northern Ireland’s Reference (No 1 of 1975), Re [1977] AC 105, [1976] 3 WLR 235, [1976] 2 All ER 937

846 HONG KONG COURT OF FINAL APPEAL REPORTS (2010) 13 HKCFAR A-G of the Commonwealth of Australia v Adelaide Steamship Co Ltd [1913] AC 781, [1911–13] All ER Rep 1120 Attorney-General v Suen Chun Kwong [1980] HKLR 543 Chou Shih Bin v HKSAR (2005) 8 HKCFAR 70, [2005] 1 HKLRD 838 Crofter Hand Woven Harris Tweed Co Ltd v Veitch [1942] AC 435, [1942] 1 All ER 142 Hamlyn & Co v Wood & Co [1891] 2 QB 488, [1891–94] All ER Rep 168 HKSAR v Chan Shu Hung [2001–2003] HKCLRT 325 HKSAR v Ho Yau Yin (2010) 13 HKCFAR 217, [2010] 4 HKC 160 HKSAR v Tse So So (2007) 10 HKCFAR 368, [2007] 3 HKLRD 932 HKSAR v Wong Shiu Fong (unrep., HCMA 1085/2003, [2004] 1 HKLRD A7) Johnson v Nobbs (unrep., Court of Appeal, 9 March 1983) Li Man Wai v Secretary for Justice (2003) 6 HKCFAR 466, [2003] 3 HKLRD 1037 Mogul Steamship Co Ltd v McGregor, Gow & Co (1888) 21 QBD 544 Moorcock, The (1889) 14 PD 64, [1886–90] All ER Rep 530 Norris v Government of the USA [2007] 1 WLR 1730, [2007] 2 All ER 29 North Western Salt Co Ltd v Electrolytic Alkali Co Ltd [1913] 3 KB 422 R v Arrowsmith [1975] QB 678, [1975] 2 WLR 484, [1975] 1 All ER 463 R v Chan Kang To [1997] HKLRD 412, [1997] 2 HKC 281 R v Gerald Cooper Chemicals Ltd [1978] Ch 262, [1978] 2 WLR 866, [1978] 2 All ER 49 R v Jones (Margaret) [2007] 1 AC 136, [2006] 2 WLR 772, [2006] 2 All ER 741 R v Lewis (1869) 11 Cox CC 404 R v Rimmington [2006] 1 AC 459, [2005] 3 WLR 982, [2006] 2 All ER 257 R v So Man King [1989] 1 HKLR 142 Shackleton, ex p Whittaker, Re (1874–1875) LR 10 Ch App 446 Smith v R [2000] 1 WLR 1644 So Wai Lun v HKSAR (2006) 9 HKCFAR 530, [2006] 3 HKLRD 394 So Yiu Fung v HKSAR (1999) 2 HKCFAR 539, [2000] 1 HKLRD 179, [2000] 1 HKC 348 Solicitor (24/07) v Law Society of Hong Kong (2008) 11 HKCFAR 117, [2008] 2 HKLRD 576, [2008] 2 HKC 1 Sorrell v Smith [1925] AC 700, [1925] All ER Rep 1 Union Bank of London v Munster (1888) 37 Ch D 51

(2010) 13 HKCFAR 847 HKSAR v Chan Wai Yip Bokhary PJ Other materials mentioned in the judgment Atiyah, Patrick, The Rise and Fall of Freedom of Contract (1979) pp.408– 413 Lever J and Pike J “Cartel Agreements, Criminal Conspiracy and the Statutory ‘Cartel Offence’: Part 1” (2005) 26(2) ECLR 90 Smith, ATH, “Auction Rings” [1981] Crim LR 86 Bokhary PJ 1.  I agree with the judgment of Sir Anthony Mason NPJ. Chan PJ 2.  I agree with the judgment of Sir Anthony Mason NPJ. Ribeiro PJ 3.  I agree with the judgment of Sir Anthony Mason NPJ. Litton NPJ Introduction 4.  This appeal raises important questions concerning the conduct of auctions. 5.  The essential facts fall within a narrow compass. They are as follows: (i) An auction of cooked food stalls at the new Tai Po Hui Market was held on 21 July 2004 by the Food and Environmental Hygiene Department (the Department) of the Hong Kong Government. (ii) This was a restricted auction. The only persons allowed to bid were the stall-holders at the old Tai Po Market: They were, in effect, being re-located to the new market. (iii) The Department had, some time before, notified the stall-holders of the reserve price for each stall, which the Department said had been fixed at 75% of the market price. (iv) Before the auction the Department sent to the stall-holders the Rules for the restricted auction. More will be said about these Rules later. (v) Prior to the auction, thirty six of the stall-holders had met together and had drawn lots with regard to the stall he or she would bid for at the auction. It was agreed that no-one else would bid for the same stall. The Department was unaware of such an agreement prior to the auction. (vi) The auction on 21 July 2004 was conducted by a Senior Health Inspector. Each stall was put up in turn. There was only one bid. The auctioneer announced the bid three times in the usual way. The stall was then knocked down to the bidder at the reserve price. This process was repeated a total

848 HONG KONG COURT OF FINAL APPEAL REPORTS (2010) 13 HKCFAR of 40 times. No bids were offered for 4 of the stalls. 36 of them were knocked down at the reserve price. Each time to a sole bidder. (vii) The bid price constituted the monthly rent for the stall, good for three years. (viii) Some time later, the 36 stall-holders were asked by the Department to sign the tenancy agreements for the stalls, which they did. They have been in possession to this day. 6.  Arising out of the facts as summarized above, nineteen of the stall-holders were charged with conspiracy to defraud, contrary to common law. 7.  The matter went before Deputy Magistrate Mr Eric Cheung Kwan-ming. The trial lasted over 50 days. They were all convicted and sentenced to terms of imprisonment ranging from 9 to 12 months. They all appealed (except for one who testified for the prosecution) and their appeals were referred by the High Court Judge to the Court of Appeal. By the time the Court of Appeal heard their appeal one of the appellants had died. The appeals were allowed. Hence it is the government which appears as the appellant in this Court, with seventeen respondents before us. The charge 8.  The particulars of the charge of conspiracy to defraud are as follows: … between a date unknown in June 2004 and the 21st day of July 2004, in Hong Kong, conspired together with AU Wing and other persons unknown, to defraud the Food and Environmental Hygiene Department (“the FEHD”), by dishonestly pre-allotting amongst themselves and their representatives the cooked food stalls at Tai Po Hui Market … prior to the auction held by the FEHD on the 21st day of July 2004 (“the Auction”) and agreeing amongst themselves and their representatives not to compete against one another in bidding the aforesaid cooked food stalls at the Auction, thereby deceiving the FEHD into believing that there was only one bid offered at the upset price for each of the aforesaid cooked food stalls and renting the aforesaid cooked food stalls at the upset prices to the aforesaid persons or their representatives. 9.  As can be seen the dishonesty as averred was this: The Department was (a) deceived into believing “that there was only one bid offered at the upset price for each of the aforesaid cooked food stalls” and (b) deceived into “renting the aforesaid cooked food stalls at the upset prices to the aforesaid persons or their representatives”.

(2010) 13 HKCFAR 849 HKSAR v Chan Wai Yip Litton NPJ 10.  As to the alleged deceit (a) above, that was, by the nature of the prosecution case, an impossibility: The very core of the Department’s complaint was that there was no competitive bidding. Each stall in turn was knocked down to the sole bidder at the reserve price. The Department could not have been deceived as alleged. 11.  As to the alleged deceit (b) above, the act of the Department in renting the stalls at the reserve price — that is to say, offering the tenancy agreements for signature to the respective bidders, with the rent set at the reserve price — simply flowed from the auction itself. Once the Department had accepted the bid, the “renting” was a simple administrative act. There could have been no intervening deceit which caused the Department to rent out the cooked food stall. 12.  If there was no deceit involved in the respondents’ “plot”, that is to say, the “pre-allotting” amongst the stall-holders as averred in the charge, and in the subsequent bids made at the auction, that was the end of the prosecution case. There was no dishonesty in the transaction which might have caused economic loss to the Department. The pre-auction agreement between the stall-holders could not be a criminal conspiracy. The Magistrate’s Approach 13.  Unfortunately, that was not the way the magistrate approached the case. Between §333 and §347 of his Statement of Findings he gave a long recital of his understanding of the law on conspiracy, without once adverting to the charge which he had to try. 14.  It is worth mentioning here this point: At the trial an Acting Chief Health Inspector was called as a prosecution witness (PW4). He produced a list of auctions of stalls by his Department at various locations which took place in the second half of 2004 (including the one held on 21 July, the subject of the charge). Over 320 stalls were involved: Virtually every one of them was knocked down at the reserve price. At the hearing before us Mr Zervos SC, counsel for the government, accepted that this must have been because, in each case, there was only one bidder. It is inconceivable that the Department was unaware of the fact that the bidders had agreed before hand that they would not bid against each other: And yet it went ahead and signed the tenancy agreements, giving possession of the stalls at the reserve price. The notion that the Department was deceived into renting the cooked food stalls to the various bidders at the reserve price is absurd. The First Question of Law 15.  The first point of law certified for our consideration is as follows:

850 HONG KONG COURT OF FINAL APPEAL REPORTS (2010) 13 HKCFAR Whether the formulation in Mo Yuk Ping v HKSAR (2007) 10 HKCFAR 386 is applicable to all forms of alleged conspiracy to defraud and ought also to be applied to a secret agreement not to compete at an auction as in any other cases or whether some aggravating feature as required in Norris v Government of the USA [2008] 1 AC 920 has to be present before such an agreement is indictable? 16.  I would simply answer it in this way: In Mo Yuk Ping v HKSAR (2007) 10 HKCFAR 386 a fraudulent scheme to manipulate the stock market was charged and proved: It was to artificially prop up the share price of a publicly-quoted company. In pursuance of the scheme, fictitious accounts were opened with many firms; the bank which had lent money on the security of those shares, and the investing public at large, were massively deceived, as the conspirators had intended. 17.  Where an agreement not to compete in an auction has no deceptive element in it, the fact that the agreement was made in secret does not by that fact alone render the agreement dishonest in the eyes of the law. Persons attending an auction owe no obligation to the vendor to compete with each other; nor are they required by law to so conduct themselves that the vendor achieves the highest possible price. As Atkin LJ said in Rawlings v General Trading Co [1921] 1 KB 635, 648: Why it should be illegal for two possible competitors to agree to a joint adventure in the purchase of an article offered for sale in any of the ways I have mentioned I cannot discern. One of the ways mentioned by him, earlier in the same passage of that judgment, was for one of the parties to absent himself from the auction or, being there, to refrain from bidding, thereby leaving the other party as the sole bidder. Atkin LJ went on to say that if there was any combination to make misrepresentations with intent to deceive the seller, the agreement would be illegal. Rawlings v General Trading Co was a civil case where the defendant had reneged on a prior agreement not to compete at an auction of surplus stores held by the government. The question was whether it was against public policy that parties should combine in this way prior to a public auction. The majority in the Court of Appeal (Bankes and Atkin LJJ) held that it was not. A later attempt to challenge this proposition in Harrop v Thompson [1975] 1 WLR 545 failed. At p.549B Templeman J said: If two potential bidders have entered into some form of agreement which results in one of them keeping his mouth shut at the auction, there is no method open to me in the light of the authorities to distinguish a good agreement from a bad agreement.

(2010) 13 HKCFAR 851 HKSAR v Chan Wai Yip Litton NPJ 18.  Misrepresentation and fraudulent conduct calculated to deceive would, of course, be an “aggravating feature”, thus rendering an otherwise innocent agreement illegal. 19.  In this regard, Mr Zervos SC counsel, for the appellant, relies on Rule 20 of the Rules of the auction which says: Any person who defrauds the Department by dishonest means (such as conspiring to refrain from competitive bidding causing everyone to win the bid for their stalls at the upset price) in the auction shall be prosecuted. This appears under the heading “Prevention of Bribery”, in the context of s.7 of the Prevention of Bribery Ordinance (Cap.201), which has no relevance to this case. But even assuming that this statement in Rule 20 was made in the context of the common law offence of conspiracy to defraud, it begs the very question: Is an agreement between the stall-holders “to refrain from competitive bidding causing everyone to win the bid for their stalls at the upset price”, without more, a crime? The answer must be No. 20.  Dishonesty is an essential element in the common law offence: see Mo Yuk Ping v HKSAR, 408F. None was present in this case. The Second Question of Law 21.  The second question certified for consideration by this Court is this: Whether the holding of an auction in a commercial context would by its nature necessarily imply that only competitive and genuine bids are acceptable, such as to prohibit any price fixing conduct in respect of it, and to render such conduct dishonest and prima facie indictable? 22.  The magistrate convicted the respondents on the basis of their statements to the police. In essence each of them said words to this effect: (i) They participated in the drawing of lots for the stalls. (ii) The purpose was to avoid competing with each other to drive up the price. (iii) The agreement would cause the Department to receive less rent for the stalls. (iv) The Department might have suffered a loss as a result. 23.  In some cases they agreed with the interviewer that the meaning of an auction was to have the item under the hammer to go to the

852 HONG KONG COURT OF FINAL APPEAL REPORTS (2010) 13 HKCFAR highest bidder. This lies, in effect, at the heart of the case as presented to this Court by the appellant. Mr Zervos SC argues thus: The deception on the Department was that this restrictive auction which the respondents attended was a genuine competitive auction without the bidders colluding among themselves. (Emphasis added.) Apart from the fact that the Department could not, by any stretch of the imagination, have been deceived (as to which see §§10 and 11 above), it begs the question: How was the expectation that this would be a “competitive auction” aroused? What made the Department believe that the stall-holders would compete with each other, so that the Department would get a higher price? By the sole fact that this was an “auction”? Or a “restrictive auction”? Or that the respondents had attended the auction? 24.  As Atkin LJ said in Rawlings v General Trading Co, 648: I see no principle upon which sales by auction differ from an offer of sale by tender or indeed by private treaty, except that at an auction without reserve the goods are offered to the purchaser who there and then offers the highest price. An auction, just as a sale by private treaty, involves mutual dealings. The purchaser’s interest is to obtain the goods at the lowest price: Does the vendor owe a duty to the purchaser that he gets the goods at the lowest price? If not, why should the purchaser owe a duty to the vendor that he sells at the highest price? Plainly, no such duty exists. 25.  A combination, as such, is not illegal. It is only where persons agree to do an unlawful act, or to do a lawful act by unlawful means, that it becomes a criminal conspiracy. As mentioned earlier, for potential purchasers to agree together, before an auction, that they would not compete with each other, is not per se unlawful. If the agreement involves no deception of any kind then they have not set out to do something lawful by unlawful means. This analysis of the law is, of course, made in the context of the charge in this case: The common law offence of conspiracy to defraud. It pays no regard to s.7 of the Prevention of Bribery Ordinance (Cap.201)1. It does not address the question whether X has offered an “advantage” (as 1 Section 7 (1) Any person who, without lawful authority or reasonable excuse, offers any advantage to any other person as an inducement to or reward for or otherwise an account of that other person’s refraining or having refrained from bidding at any auction conducted by or on behalf of any public body, shall be guilty of an offence. (2) Any person who, without lawful authority or reasonable excuse, solicits or accepts any advantage as an inducement to or reward for or otherwise on account of his refraining or having refrained from bidding at any auction conducted by or on behalf of any public body, shall be guilty of an offence.

(2010) 13 HKCFAR 853 HKSAR v Chan Wai Yip Litton NPJ defined in that Ordinance) to Y when he undertakes to Y not to bid against him when the item “pre-allotted” to Y comes under the hammer. Of course, the “advantage” is mutual, since Y has made an identical undertaking to X. The “advantages”, in a sense, cancel out each other. 26.  Note also this: In a case like the present, where Rule 8 of the auction rules allows the auctioneer to refuse to accept any bid without explanation, the stall-holders could do no more than to hope that, by their arrangement, each would get the allotted stall at the reserve price. Their agreement went no further than to mutually agree not to bid against each other. Full stop. There was no way they could have been sure that the pre-allotted stalls would be knocked down to them at the reserve price. The surprising thing in this case is that the auctioneer continued the auction when it became blindingly obvious very early on in the proceedings that the stall-holders had agreed not to bid against each other, as each stall was knocked down to a sole bidder. And if, as the Department now alleges, the auction was vitiated by fraud, it could have avoided the contract and refused to sign the tenancy agreement. 27.  Mr Zervos SC’s proposition (at §23 above) therefore boils down to this: By their bare conduct, that is to say, by attending the auction, nothing else, the respondents impliedly represented that they would make it “competitive”; that they would bid against each other; that they had formed no prior agreement to refrain from bidding against each other. 28.  Note this: There is no suggestion in Mr Zervos SC’s proposition that the pre-allotment arrangement was aimed at harming the economic interests of the Department. The stall-holders were looking to their own economic interests: If each stall was knocked down to them at the reserve price, so much the better for them (and, it might be added, for the consumers who frequented their stalls). 29.  Plainly, no such implication as proposed by the appellant can arise: neither by law, nor from the facts of the case. Serious criminal offences like conspiracy to defraud cannot crystallize from such shadowy propositions. The answer to the second question must necessarily be No. The Third Question of Law 30.  The third question is this: Whether the incorporation of an express condition in the auction rules to the effect that only competitive and genuine bids are acceptable would prohibit any price fixing conduct in respect of it, and render such conduct dishonest and prima facie indictable? 31.  For the appellant, this question fails in limine upon the facts of this case. Clause 20 of the Rules (referred to in §19 above) in no way

854 HONG KONG COURT OF FINAL APPEAL REPORTS (2010) 13 HKCFAR amounted to a representation by the stall-holders of any kind. It was simply a warning by the Department. As Tang V-P said (§78 of his judgment) the Department could have required a written warranty from each potential bidder. The warranty could have been to this effect: that, in making a bid, the bidder warranted that he/she had not entered into any prior arrangement to refrain from competitive bidding; each bid would then be accepted on that basis. In no way can Rule 20 be construed to operate in this way. Conclusion 32.  These are my reasons for agreeing that this appeal should be dismissed. Sir Anthony Mason NPJ Introduction 33.  19 defendants were charged with a single count of common law conspiracy to defraud, punishable under s.159C(6) of the Crimes Ordinance (Cap.200). The particulars of the offence charged were as follows: … between a date unknown in June 2004 and the 21st day of July 2004, in Hong Kong, conspired together with AU Wing and other persons unknown, to defraud the Food and Environmental Hygiene Department (the FEHD), by dishonestly pre-allotting amongst themselves and their representatives the cooked food stalls at Tai Po Hui Market at No 8 Heung Sze Wui Street, Tai Po prior to the auction held by the FEHD on the 21st day of July 2004 (the Auction) and agreeing amongst themselves and their representatives not to compete against one another in bidding the aforesaid cooked food stalls at the Auction, thereby deceiving the FEHD into believing that there was only one bid offered at the upset price for each of the aforesaid cooked food stalls and renting the aforesaid cooked food stalls at the upset prices to the aforesaid persons or their representatives. As will appear, the way in which the conspiracy is formulated is of critical importance in this appeal. 34.  The defendants other than the 1st defendant, who pleaded guilty, pleaded not guilty but were convicted by the Deputy Magistrate (as he then was) and sentenced to imprisonment ranging from 9  to 12 months. Their appeals against conviction and sentence were transferred to the Court of Appeal pursuant to s.118(1)(d) of the Magistrates Ordinance (Cap.227). The appeal by the 19th defendant, who died in the meantime, was abated on 2 March 2010. 35.  On 15 March 2010 the Court of Appeal allowed the appeal by the other defendants who pleaded not guilty (the respondents

(2010) 13 HKCFAR 855 HKSAR v Chan Wai Yip Sir Anthony Mason NPJ in this Court) and quashed the convictions. On 1 April 2010 the Court published its reasons for allowing the appeal. The principal judgment was delivered by Tang V-P, with Yeung JA and D Pang J agreeing. On 9 July 2010, the Appeal Committee extended the time for applying for leave to appeal and granted the prosecution leave to appeal out of time under s.32(2) of the Hong Kong Court of Final Appeal Ordinance (Cap.484), on the ground that points of law of great and general importance were involved. The prosecutor’s appeal to this Court is brought pursuant to that grant of leave. 36.  The three points of law on which the Appeal Committee granted leave to appeal are: (a) Whether the formulation in Mo Yuk Ping v HKSAR is applicable to all forms of alleged conspiracy to defraud and ought also to be applied to a secret agreement not to compete at an auction as in any other cases or whether some aggravating feature as required in Norris v Government of the USA [2008] 1 AC 920 has to be present before such an agreement is indictable. (b) Whether the holding of an auction in a commercial context would by its nature necessarily imply that only competitive and genuine bids are acceptable, such as to prohibit any price fixing conduct in respect of it, and to render such conduct dishonest and prima facie indictable. (c) Whether the incorporation of an express condition in the auction rules to the effect that only competitive and genuine bids are acceptable would prohibit any price fixing conduct in respect of it, and render such conduct dishonest and prima facie indictable. The facts 37.  The facts of the case are uncontested. I take them from the judgment of Tang V-P where they are summarised succinctly. The respondents were the tenants or assistants to the tenants of cooked food stalls at the former Tai Po Temporary Market (the Old Market). In 2004, the respondents and other tenants were required by the Food and Environmental Hygiene Department (FEHD) to move from the Old Market to the newly built Tai Po Hui Market (the New Market). They were given priority to bid for stalls at the New Market in a restricted auction (圍內競投) which was held exclusively for them. The bid price would become the rent to be paid. The upset prices for these stalls were fixed at 75% of the market rent as assessed by the Rating and Valuation Department. These upset reserved prices were made known by letters sent by FEHD to the potential bidders including the respondents in early June 2004. 38.  The prosecution’s case is that before attending the restricted auction, the respondents had attended a pre-allotment exercise held

856 HONG KONG COURT OF FINAL APPEAL REPORTS (2010) 13 HKCFAR among themselves and other tenants of the Old Market. The exercise was conducted by way of the drawing of lots. The numbers drawn in the first round would determine the sequence of the draw in the second round. A number drawn in the second round would be the number of the stall in the New Market allotted to the drawer of that number. The participants also agreed amongst themselves that each would only bid for the stall which had been allotted to him/her in this manner. 39.  The restricted auction was held on 21 July 2004 and was attended by 36 eligible bidders, including the respondents. 40 cooked food stalls were put up for auction. There was no competitive bidding during the auction and the stalls were knocked down to all the 36 bidders at the upset prices. Lack of competitive bidding was by no means confined to the auctions in question. From materials in evidence it seems to have been a fairly common feature of auctions conducted by the FEHD at this time, involving a single bid with lots sold at the upset price. 40.  Included in the documents sent to each of the stallholders who were potential bidders were the rules of the auction. Rule 4 provided that the basic principle of an auction was that the stalls would be knocked down to the highest bidder. Rule 8 provided that the participants of the auction “shall not in any way influence another person in bidding for a stall …”. Rule 20, which appears under the heading “Prevention of Bribery”, stated the effect of s.7 of the Prevention of Bribery Ordinance (Cap.201) (the PBO), without identifying the section or the Ordinance. The Rule then provided: Any person who defrauds the Department by dishonest means (such as conspiring to refrain from competitive bidding causing everyone to win the bid for their stalls at the upset prices) in the auction shall be prosecuted. This warning was directed to conspiracy to defraud rather than a breach of s.7. 41.  The Senior Health Inspector, Kwan Chi Hung (PW4), who conducted the auction, agreed in cross-examination, however, that he had not mentioned the auction rules before conducting the restricted auction. Nonetheless the stallholders who were potential bidders were notified of the rules and they formed part of the terms and conditions of the auction. I shall refer to r.20 later in these reasons. It is nevertheless clear that, at no stage of the proceedings, did the prosecutor rely on s.7 of the PBO. The Court of Appeal 42.  In the Court of Appeal, the prosecution (the appellant in this Court) relied on the pre-allotment and the agreement not to compete

(2010) 13 HKCFAR 857 HKSAR v Chan Wai Yip Sir Anthony Mason NPJ as the constituent elements of the common law offence of conspiracy to defraud. The prosecution, as at trial, did not rely on any additional element such as fraud, misrepresentation, violence, intimidation or inducement of breach of contract. Instead, the foundation of the prosecution case was Viscount Dilhorne’s statement in Scott v Metropolitan Police Commissioner [1975] AC 819, 840 that the law is: that an agreement by two or more by dishonesty to deprive a person of something which is his or to which he is or would be or might be entitled and an agreement by two or more by dishonesty to injure some proprietary right of his, suffices to constitute the offence of conspiracy to defraud. In addition to this proposition, Mr Terence Wai, who appeared for the prosecution in the courts below, submitted that FEHD suffered economic loss as a result of the respondents’ conduct. 43.  The respondents submitted that an agreement by which the parties agreed not to bid against each other at an auction has always been held to be valid and enforceable under English law and has never been held to be criminal. The Court of Appeal upheld this submission and rejected the argument of the prosecution. In doing so, the Court of Appeal relied on a long and consistent line of English authority, beginning with the judgment of Knight Bruce V-C in Galton v Emuss [1844] 1 Coll 243, 246 and culminating in the decisions of the House of Lords in Norris v Government of the United States of America [2008] 1 AC 920, 936B–E and R v Goldshield Group Plc [2009] 1 WLR 458. The Court of Appeal saw no inconsistency between Norris and the decision of this Court in Mo Yuk Ping v HKSAR. The arguments in this Court 44.  The appellant submits that Mo Yuk Ping v HKSAR authoritatively states the constituent elements of the offence of conspiracy to defraud in Hong Kong and that the offence is not limited to cases involving “the aggravating features” identified in Norris v Government of the United States of America. The appellant then submits that the essence of the restrictive auction was that it was a genuine competitive auction which would not involve any collusion by the bidders themselves. Yet there was collusion which resulted in deception and therefore dishonesty, falling within the Mo Yuk Ping formulation, so that it was not a case of mere price fixing, as the Court of Appeal found. 45.  The case for the respondents as argued in the Court of Appeal is that an agreement not to bid at an auction, without any of “the aggravating features” identified in Norris v Government of the United States of America, is neither criminal nor dishonest and therefore falls outside the scope of the offence of conspiracy as formulated in Mo

858 HONG KONG COURT OF FINAL APPEAL REPORTS (2010) 13 HKCFAR Yuk Ping v HKSAR. In any event, the respondents submit that an agreement not to bid at an auction is not, and never has been held to be dishonest or criminal at common law. The charge 46.  Before considering the arguments presented in this appeal, it is necessary to turn to the way in which the charge of conspiracy against the respondents was formulated and the consequences this may have for the disposition of the appeal. In the courts below no attention was given to the terms of the charge. In this Court, however, when Mr Kevin Zervos SC for the appellant was asked in argument how he formulated the elements of the alleged conspiracy, attention was directed to the terms of the charge. It alleged that the defendants conspired to defraud the FEHD by dishonestly pre-allotting among themselves the relevant food stalls so as not to bid against each other, thus (as it is particularised in the charge) deceiving the FEHD into believing that there was only one bid offered at the upset price for each of the aforesaid cooked food stalls and renting the aforesaid cooked food stalls at the upset prices to the aforesaid persons or their representatives. 47.  The case averred by the prosecution was therefore one of deception, namely that the pre-allotment and the agreement not to compete deceived the FEHD into believing that there was only one bid for each stall at the auction. There are three problems with the case as so pleaded. First, the FEHD was not aware of the pre-allotment and the agreement not to compete until some time after the auction. Secondly, there is no evidence that the pre-allotment on the agreement not to compete induced or deceived the FEHD into believing anything. Thirdly, no doubt the FEHD did believe that only one bid was offered at the upset price for each stall but that belief was founded on the FEHD’s knowledge of what in fact happened at the auction. The deception alleged simply cannot be substantiated. 48.  Mr Zervos SC frankly admitted that the charge was defective and put his case on two different bases. The first was that the pre-allotment and, in particular, the agreement not to compete amounted to a collusive arrangement intended to deprive the FEHD by dishonest means of a higher price, thereby causing economic loss. The second was that, by participating in the auction on the basis on which they did, the defendants made a false representation to the FEHD causing it loss. 49.  The problem with proceeding with the appeal is that we could not allow an appeal and convict the respondents on a charge of conspiracy which cannot be made out. Nor can we convict them of

(2010) 13 HKCFAR 859 HKSAR v Chan Wai Yip Sir Anthony Mason NPJ an offence of conspiracy to defraud which has never been charged. It follows that the appeal could not succeed. The Court made an order dismissing the appeal with costs at the end of the oral argument, stating that reasons would be handed down later. This judgment sets out my reasons for dismissing the appeal. 50.  As the principal issue argued in the appeal is of some importance, I shall deal with it on the two bases argued by the appellant. The common law offence of conspiracy to defraud 51.  In Mo Yuk Ping v HKSAR, this Court held that the essence of the offence of conspiracy to defraud was becoming a party to an agreement with another or others to use dishonest means (i) with the purpose of causing economic loss to, or putting at risk the economic interests of another; or (ii) with the realisation that the use of those means might cause such loss or put such interests at risk. In stating the elements of conspiracy to defraud in this way, this Court adopted earlier formulations of the offence in both the House of Lords (Welham v DPP [1961] AC 103; R v Scott [1975] AC 819) and the Privy Council on appeal from Hong Kong (Wai Yu Tsang v R [1992] 1 AC 269). The Court pointed out (at p.405D–E) that most cases of agreement to use dishonest means were cases of deceit. The Court rejected the argument that the offence, as formulated in Mo Yuk Ping v HKSAR, offended the principle of legal certainty. 52.  In Norris v Government of the United States of America, as well as R v Goldshield Group Plc, the House of Lords did not refer at all to the formulations in its two earlier decisions, though in R v Goldshield Group Plc there was a reference to Wai Yu Tsang v R. No doubt this was because their Lordships were directing their attention to the precise issue which arose for decision in the proceedings before them. In Norris v Government of the United States of America, that issue was whether the defendant’s alleged conduct in conspiring with producers of carbon products to operate a price fixing agreement or cartel in several countries, which was the subject of the conspiracy offence with which the defendant was charged in the United States, constituted common law conspiracy to defraud. In R v Goldshield Group Plc, the issue was whether arrangements to fix and maintain prices for drugs supplied and for manipulating the supply of drugs constituted such a conspiracy. 53.  It was in this context that the House of Lords held, after reviewing the relevant authorities, that: [t]he common law recognised that an agreement in restraint of trade might be unreasonable in the public interest, and in such cases the agreement would be held to be void and unenforceable. But unless there were aggravating features such as fraud, misrepresentation,

860 HONG KONG COURT OF FINAL APPEAL REPORTS (2010) 13 HKCFAR violence, intimidation or inducement of a breach of contract, such agreements were not actionable or indictable (Norris at 933F–G). 54.  Neither the appellant nor the respondents contend that Norris v Government of the United States of America is inconsistent with Mo Yuk Ping v HKSAR. Be this as it may, neither what was decided nor what was said in Norris v Government of the United States of America or R v Goldshield Group Plc constitutes any reason for this Court to depart from the general formulation of the offence of conspiracy to defraud as expressed in Mo Yuk Ping v HKSAR. On the issue of legal certainty, the Court’s approach in Mo Yuk Ping v HKSAR was consistent with the approach which it had adopted earlier in Shum Kwok Sher v HKSAR (2002) 5 HKCFAR 381. On the other hand, the discussion in Norris about the common law treatment of price fixing agreements, in particular the conclusion that, absent the so-called “aggravating features”, they did not involve dishonesty (see p.936C–E), is a matter that calls for close attention. The issue for decision in this appeal 55.  The issue argued in this Court therefore is whether a secret agreement between potential bidders not to compete at an auction, or such an agreement followed by participation by such bidders at the auction, falls within the formulation of the common law offence of conspiracy to defraud as formulated in Mo Yuk Ping v HKSAR. The focus of attention in that formulation was on the expression “by dishonest means”, where the word “dishonest” is to be understood in its ordinary sense (see R v Ghosh [1982] 1 QB 1053). The English authorities on agreements restricting bidding at auctions 56.  There is no doubt, as the Court of Appeal held, that there is strong English authority to support the proposition that an agreement by potential buyers not to bid at an auction, what is called in England a “knock out” agreement, in order to keep the price down, is neither unenforceable as being contrary to public policy nor criminal. Whether they go so far as to hold that such an agreement, if secret, is dishonest for the purposes of the law of conspiracy, is a question I leave for later consideration. 57.  Galton v Emuss [1844] 1 Coll 243, Re Carew’s Estate [1858] 26 Beav 187 and Heffer v Martyn [1867] 36 LJ Ch 373 were cases in which two potential buyers agreed that one would not bid against the other at an auction for valuable consideration. The agreement in each case was held to be valid and enforceable, resulting in Galton v Emuss and Heffer v Martyn in an order for specific performance. In Re Carew’s Estate the agreement was that the parties would divide

(2010) 13 HKCFAR 861 HKSAR v Chan Wai Yip Sir Anthony Mason NPJ the property between them if it was bought by the bidding party under the sale pursuant to a court order. On a summons to set aside the sale on the ground that the agreement was unlawful, Sir John Romilly MR said (at p.190) that “a mere agreement” between two persons not to bid against each other was not “sufficient to invalidate a sale to one of them”. 58.  In Jones v North (1875) 19 Eq 426, after a corporation had invited tenders for the supply of stone, A, B, C and D who were quarry owners agreed that A should buy stone at a fixed price from the other three and submit the lowest tender. B should not tender, that C and D should tender above A’s price and that B, C and D should not supply stone to the corporation during 1875. A purchased the stone as agreed but B sent in a tender, in breach of the agreement, and it was accepted. Bacon V-C held that the agreement was legal and valid. He also said (at p.429) that the case was “on one side at least, a very honest one”, a statement which has been doubted (Norris v Government of the United States of America [2007] 1 WLR 1730, para.50, (Auld LJ)), indeed criticized (Lever and Pike, “Cartel Agreements, Criminal Conspiracy and the Statutory ‘Cartel Offence’: Part 1” (2005) ECLR, 90–97). Bacon V-C rejected a submission that the plaintiff could not obtain equitable relief because the arrangement was a device to compel the authority, under the fiction of public competition, to accept tenders not representing the market price of the stone. He held (at p.430) that the agreement was “perfectly lawful”. 59.  In Norris v Government of the United States of America, their Lordships stated that Jones v North has never been overruled and treated it as representing the law to-day (see p.936C–E). 60.  In Rawlings v General Trading Co [1920] 3 KB 30, the question was whether on the sale of Government stores by public auction, where no reserve was fixed, two or more buyers could agree that one of them only would bid in order to keep down the price, and that they would then share the profits between them. At first instance Shearman J concluded (at p.34) that the agreement was one “which it is contrary to public policy to enforce”. 61.  On appeal (1921) 1 KB 635, the Court of Appeal by majority (Bankes and Atkin LJJ with Scrutton LJ dissenting) allowed the appeal. Scrutton LJ considered (at p.647) that “the agreement was contrary to public policy, as a restraint of trade contrary to the interests of the public”, though it was neither criminal nor actionable. On the other hand, Bankes and Atkin LJJ, on the basis of the long line of existing authorities, concluded (at pp.641 and 652 respectively) that the agreement was legal and enforceable. Atkin LJ said (at p.652): I can see no reason for saying that this contract is ex facie illegal. It would probably be sufficient to say that for nearly a century Courts

862 HONG KONG COURT OF FINAL APPEAL REPORTS (2010) 13 HKCFAR of equity have held similar agreements legal and enforceable by suit for specific performance. But apart from decided cases, as between the parties it appears to be plainly reasonable, and if the defendant wished to establish that the public interests suffered he should have so pleaded so as to give the plaintiff notice. 62.  Rawlings v General Trading Co was subsequently followed by McCardie J in Cohen v Roche [1927] 1 KB 169, 173. And the legality of a “knock out” agreement was assumed in Pallant v Morgan [1953] Ch 43 where a party to such an agreement who became the successful bidder refused to divide the property sold with the other party to the agreement as it provided. The Court declared that the successful party held the property sold for the other party to the agreement. 63.  Rawlings v General Trading Co was again followed by Templeman J (as he then was) in Harrop v Thompson [1975] 1 WLR

  1. There specific performance was ordered of an agreement for the

sale of two farms purchased at a public auction, despite the existence of an antecedent agreement between the purchaser and another potential bidder that the latter would not bid with the result that the purchaser obtained the property more cheaply. 64.  In that case, counsel for the first defendant invited the court to follow the path favoured by Shearman J and Scrutton LJ in Rawlings v General Trading Co and to conclude that an agreement not to bid, if not proved to be reasonable, is unenforceable and relieves the vendor from his contract. A “knock out” agreement, he submitted, is an interference with the liberty of the potential bidder to bid at the auction and ought not to be enforceable if the sole or primary object of the knock out agreement is to buy the property cheaply. Templeman J responded to this argument by saying (at pp.548H–549A): This submission tends to bring most contracts within the grasp of restraint of trade and therefore unenforceable unless proved to be reasonable, because most contracts interfere with liberty of action one way or another. I am not convinced that the agreement alleged in the present case was in restraint of trade. If it was in restraint of trade, I am not convinced that it therefore invalidated or affected the contract between the vendors and the purchaser. 65.  Templeman J went on to say (at p.549D): A vendor can protect himself by conditions under which he imposes a reserve and keeps the right to bid and to withdraw. A timid vendor need not sell by auction. The significance of this observation is a matter to which I shall return.

(2010) 13 HKCFAR 863 HKSAR v Chan Wai Yip Sir Anthony Mason NPJ 66.  In Norris v Government of the United States of America, Rawlings v General Trading Co, as well as Jones v North, was accepted as correctly stating the law. The other authorities which I have discussed were not referred to in Norris v Government of the United States of America, but if Rawlings v General Trading Co and Jones v North correctly state the law in England so do they. 67.  On the other hand, the common law has taken a different approach to agreements the purpose of which is to raise the market value of public funds and shares. In R v De Berenger (1814) 3 M & S 67 the defendants were charged with conspiring by false rumours to raise the price of public Government funds and were convicted. On a motion to arrest judgment, which was dismissed, Lord Ellenborough CJ said (at pp.72–73) that the purpose itself is mischievous, it strikes at the price of a vendible commodity in the market, and if it gives it a fictitious price, by means of false rumours, it is a fraud levelled against all the public … Bayley J and Dampier J were of a similar opinion, as was Le Blanc J who said (at p.74): the raising or lowering the price of public funds is not per se a crime … But if a number of persons conspire by false rumours to raise the funds on a particular day, that is an offence … 68.  In Scott v Brown, Doering, McNab & Co [1892] 2 QB 724 the Court of Appeal held that an agreement between two or more persons to purchase shares in a company in order to induce persons who might thereafter purchase shares in that company to believe, contrary to the fact, that there was a bona fide market for the shares, and that the shares were at a real premium, is an illegal transaction which may be made the subject of an indictment for conspiracy and no action can be maintained on the agreement or the purchase of the shares. The Court of Appeal followed R v De Berenger and held that the acts of the plaintiff in ordering shares to be bought for him at a premium was to deceive the public by leading the public to suppose that there were buyers of the shares at a premium on the Stock Exchange. The purchase of the shares was to be equated to a false representation. Assessment of the English authorities on agreements restricting bidding 69.  For present purposes, the English authorities establish that these agreements were lawful at common law. Although Jones v North is the only case which expressly holds that such agreements are “honest”.

864 HONG KONG COURT OF FINAL APPEAL REPORTS (2010) 13 HKCFAR The other cases by holding that they are lawful necessarily negate the possibility that they could be “dishonest” in the sense that they could be the subject of a conviction for conspiracy to defraud. A contract which is valid and enforceable cannot itself be “dishonest” for the purposes of criminal conspiracy to defraud. 70.  To an observer familiar with the modern law relating to restrictive trade practices and uninstructed in the way in which the law on this point developed, the proposition that “knock out” agreements are “honest” might seem somewhat surprising. The explanation lies no doubt in the nature of the capitalist economic philosophy which prevailed in England in the period 1800–1870, which strongly favoured freedom of trade and freedom of contract (see Atiyah, The Rise and Fall of Freedom of Contract (1979) pp.408– 412). One consequence of this approach was that the courts were not concerned with the effect of a contract on third parties but with the legal effect and enforcement of the contract as between the parties to it (see Atiyah, pp.412–413). This serves to explain why the impact of a “knock-out” agreement on the vendor at an auction was not considered in the cases which have been discussed. They were, of course, with the exception of Cohen v Roche, cases in which the vendor at an auction was not a party. 71.  The different treatment of an agreement to raise prices at an auction may be explained at two levels. First, they were cases which involved a misrepresentation by words or conduct, whereas a “knock out” agreement of itself did not, though it might lead to the making of such a misrepresentation. Secondly, there was a recognition that a false increase in market prices has an adverse impact on the public; such an impact may or may not occur in the case of a false lowering of auction prices. Although a “knock out” agreement may be in restraint of trade because it is restrictive of freedom of competition, it may not necessarily be contrary to the public interest, a matter that was acknowledged in Rawlings v General Trading Co (see para.61 above). 72.  Until Rawlings v General Trading Co, there was no suggestion that a “knock out” agreement might be in restraint of trade. In the period which the cases before Rawlings v General Trading Co were decided, the courts were not disposed to invalidate or treat as unenforceable agreements which were restrictive of competition on the ground that they were in restraint of trade. It seems to have been thought that restrictive agreements would not survive the pressure of freedom of competition (see, for example, Wickens v Evans (1829) 3 Y & J 318, 330; 148 ER 1201, 1206 which was cited with approval by Fry LJ in Mogul Steamship Co Ltd v McGregor, Gow & Co (1889) 23 QBD 598, 628, in a judgment upheld in the House of Lords [1892] AC 25). Jones v North itself was a striking illustration of how far the courts were prepared to go in enforcing contracts which, to modern eyes, might seem to be in restraint of trade. There, the court

(2010) 13 HKCFAR 865 HKSAR v Chan Wai Yip Sir Anthony Mason NPJ having rejected the argument that the agreement was in restraint of trade and an unlawful conspiracy, granted an injunction which prevented the defendant from carrying out his contract to supply the Birmingham Corporation to the detriment of its interests, though it was not a party to the proceedings. 73.  And even when, at the end of the 19th century, restraint of trade issues were litigated before the courts, arising out of combination, cartel and restrictive trade agreements, the courts were unwilling to hold that they were illegal. They might be void and unenforceable as between the parties but they were not illegal. That was the real point of the decision of both the Court of Appeal and the House of Lords in Mogul Steamship Co Ltd v McGregor, Gow & Co. Indeed, the underlying thrust of the reasoning both in the Court of Appeal and the House of Lords in that case was that, so long as traders individually or collectively were pursuing their own business interests without infringing the rights of others or intending to do them harm, that pursuit was legitimate, even if, by deliberately lowering prices, it drove others out of business. In this respect, Mogul Steamship Co Ltd v McGregor, Gow & Co is generally consistent with, and supports, the long line of decisions in the “knock out” cases and Jones v North. Should this Court follow the English authorities? 74.  The question which arises therefore is whether the Court should, in stating the law of conspiracy to defraud for Hong Kong, declare that the long line of decisions on “knock out” agreements, including Jones v North, no longer represents the law of Hong Kong. The argument for taking this course is that such agreements are dishonest and anti-competitive and strike at the very essence of a competitive auction. Even assuming that there is strong reason to take this course in an appropriate case, this is not such a case because the appeal must be dismissed for the reasons already given. 75.  And, in any event, to discard the long line of English authority to bring “knock out” agreements within the reach of the law of criminal conspiracy would be a step too far. Not only have the relevant decisions stood for a very long time — they go back more than 160 years — they almost certainly have been taken to represent the law of conspiracy in Hong Kong. For all we know, people in Hong Kong have relied on them. If there is to be a change, then in my view it is a matter entirely for the legislature. Other matters 76.  It is, of course, true that the FEHD can protect itself from “knock out” agreements by fixing a reserve (and not disclosing it) and reserving the right to bid and withdraw, as Templeman J pointed

866 HONG KONG COURT OF FINAL APPEAL REPORTS (2010) 13 HKCFAR in Harrop v Thompson, p.549D but this expedient leaves unresolved the question whether there should be a criminal sanction against the making of collusive “knock out” agreements. 77.  Finally a word about s.7 of the PBO. It seems that it has not been enforced in Hong Kong due to doubts about its efficacy. The section, though expressed in different terms, is broadly similar to s.1(1) of the Auctions (Bidding Agreements) Act 1927 (UK). Professor ATH Smith discusses the section in “Auction Rings” [1981] Crim LR 86 and identifies the problems associated with it. Conclusion 78.  These are my reasons for dismissing the appeal. Bokhary PJ 79.  At the conclusion of the hearing, the Court announced that the appeal was dismissed for reasons to be handed down in due course. The reasons given by Sir Anthony Mason NPJ constitute the reasons of the Court. Costs will be dealt with on written submissions as to which the parties should seek procedural directions from the Registrar.

Chapter 200 Crimes Ordinance 16/11/2017 36. [cf. 1911 c. 6 s. 5 U.K.] False statutory declarations and other false statements without oath Any person who knowingly and wilfully makes (otherwise than on oath) a statement false in a material particular, such statement being made— (a) in a statutory declaration; or (b) in an abstract, account, balance sheet, book, certificate, declaration, entry, estimate, inventory, notice, report, return or other document which he is authorized or required to make, attest or verify, by any enactment for the time being in force; or (c) in any oral declaration or oral answer which he is required to make by, under or in pursuance of any enactment for the time being in force, shall be guilty of an offence and shall be liable on conviction upon indictment to imprisonment for 2 years and to a fine. (21 of 1922 s. 7 incorporated. Amended 5 of 1924 Schedule) 1/8/26, 10:02 AM Hong Kong e-Legislation - Print Selected Documents https://www.elegislation.gov.hk/printhtml 1/1

FD06236 | 2025_港澳台_香港宏福苑大火_ICAC-report-for-IC.pdf

分类:06_境外及港澳台调查报告 | 年份:2025 | 地域:香港 | 严重程度: | 场所: | 起火原因: | 来源格式:pdf

INDEPENDENT COMMISSION AGAINST CORRUPTION HONG KONG SPECIAL ADMINISTRATIVE REGION Report for the Independent Committee in relation to fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po January 2026

TABLE OF CONTENTS

Paragraph 1. THE ROLE OF THE ICAC

Statutory Responsibilities and Purview of ICAC 1 – 2

The Three-pronged Approach 3

Independent Oversight 4 – 5

The Nature of Corruption 6

CORRUPTION IN BUILDING RENOVATION WORKS Multiple Stakeholders 7 – 15

The Building Renovation Market 16 – 26

ICAC’s Strategy and Efforts in Combatting Corruption in Building Renovation Works 27

 Community Relations Department: Publicity and Educational Efforts 28

 Corruption Prevention Department: Systemic Prevention Work 29 – 32

 Operations Department: Law Enforcement Efforts 33 – 97

CONCLUSION Conclusion 98 – 101

1 CORRUPTION IN LARGE-SCALE BUILDING MAINTENANCE AND RENOVATION WORKS

THE ROLE OF THE ICAC Statutory Responsibilities and Purview of ICAC

The ICAC was established in 1974 under the Independent Commission Against Corruption Ordinance (Cap. 204) (ICACO) to combat corruption. Guaranteed by Article 57 of the Basic Law, the ICAC functions independently of the civil service and the Commissioner is directly accountable to the Chief Executive.

According to section 12 of the ICACO, the statutory duties of the ICAC include (a) to investigate complaints alleging corrupt practices, or alleged or suspected offences under the ICACO and the Prevention of Bribery Ordinance (Cap. 201) (POBO); (b) to examine the practices and procedures of Government departments and public bodies in order to facilitate the discovery of corrupt practices and to secure revision of work method or procedures which may be conducive to corrupt practices; and instruct, advise and assist any person, on the latter’s request, on ways in which corrupt practices may be eliminated; and (c) to educate the public against the evils of corruption, and enlist and foster public support in combatting corruption. In order to enhance the effectiveness of law enforcement work in combatting corruption, the ICAC is empowered under ICACO to also deal with certain scheduled offences (e.g. fraud, false accounting and conspiracy to defraud) and offences connected with or facilitated by corruption.

The Three-pronged Approach

In fulfilment of these statutory duties, the ICAC has since its establishment adopted a holistic three-pronged strategy in fighting corruption

2 through law enforcement, systemic corruption prevention and community education via the three functional departments, viz Operations Department, Corruption Prevention Department (CPD) and Community Relations Department (CRD). Over the past 50 years, this time-tested strategy which seeks to address both the symptoms and the root causes of corruption has kept Hong Kong’s corruption under control and built up a culture of probity with zero tolerance against corruption.

Independent Oversight

The work of the ICAC is scrutinised by four independent advisory committees each comprising, on top of a few ex-officio members, non-official chairman and members appointed by the Chief Executive. The Advisory Committee on Corruption oversees the overall operation and policy matters of the Commission, the Operations Review Committee (ORC) on the investigative work of the Operations Department, and the Corruption Prevention Advisory Committee and the Citizens Advisory Committee on Community Relations respectively on the preventive and education work of CPD and CRD1. All corruption investigations must be reported to the ORC for scrutiny. No investigation is concluded without the endorsement of the ORC.

This report delineates the enforcement, prevention and education work of the ICAC on large-scale building maintenance and renovation works2 (hereafter referred to as building renovations), identifies and examines the issues in the sector.

1 Reports of ICAC Advisory Committees included in the 2024 ICAC Annual Report https://www.icac.org.hk/icac/annual-report/2024/pdf/Reports_of_ICAC_Advisory_Committees.pdf 2 According to the amended Building Management Ordinance, which became effective on 13 July 2025, “large-scale maintenance procurement”, is defined as those with a proposed value exceeding, or likely to exceed, $30,000 per flat. These high-value procurements are governed by stricter statutory rules, including a threshold for in-person owner voting.

3 The Nature of Corruption

Before considering the relevant issues, it is first necessary to understand the nature of corruption. Corruption is seldom an end in itself, but rather a means to an end. It is usually a tool used by criminals to achieve their ultimate objectives. By its very nature, corruption is a secretive and insidious crime, and most people would never notice its existence. Unlike traditional crimes like murder or robbery, there is often no crime scene or readily apparent victim. The true victim of corruption, which is society as a whole, is generally unaware of being victimised. Invariably, both parties to a bribe, the offeror and the acceptor, stand to gain from corrupt quid pro quo arrangements. Both are satisfied customers and would have no incentive to disclose their corrupt dealings to outsiders. As can be seen in the case studies on ICAC’s enforcement efforts (paragraphs 44-96 below), these features take on their most extreme form in the building renovation sector, rendering corruption in the sector particularly difficult to crack. Before examining how criminals target that sector, the underlying landscape and its key features are discussed in detail below.

CORRUPTION IN BUILDING RENOVATION WORKS Multiple Stakeholders

The majority of Hong Kong’s seven and a half million inhabitants live and work in tens of thousands of densely populated multi-owned buildings. The ownership, rights and obligations between owners in the buildings (including scope of common areas), are set out in the relevant Deed of Mutual Covenant (DMC)3. Common areas (e.g. entrance lobbies) and facilities (e.g. fire service installations) in the buildings are co-owned by all owners, who are responsible for their maintenance

3 A DMC is a private contract entered into by the developer, the first purchaser and the property manager. It is registered in the Land Registry and binds all subsequent owners and property managers appointed from time to time.

4 and renovation. In addition to the owners, there are other stakeholders involved in building management and maintenance (BMM) matters4.

Property Owners and Owners’ Corporations

Property owners bear a collective responsibility for properly managing and maintaining the common areas of their buildings, and Owners’ Corporations (OCs) are usually formed as an independent corporate body set up under the Building Management Ordinance (Cap. 344) (BMO) to handle such matters. A Management Committee (MC) is elected by the OC to act on its behalf. In addition to the contractual obligations arising from the DMC, the BMO, a legal framework for the formation of OCs and MCs, sets out the powers and duties of OCs in respect of the management of the common parts of their buildings. MC members should be owners of units in the building. However, the secretary and treasurer need not be owners. Where a corporate property owner is appointed as an MC member, that corporate entity may appoint any person to act as its “authorised representative”5 who can be appointed key roles such as Chairman.

To assist OCs and MCs in carrying out their duties, the Home Affairs Department (HAD) has published “A Guide on Building Management Ordinance (Cap. 344)” 6, which outlines the main provisions of the BMO in layman’s terms.

Property Management Companies

In view of the wide range of matters arising in BMM, many OCs engage a property management company (PMC) to assist in the management of their buildings. As of early 2025, nearly 800 licensed PMCs and approximately 15,000

4 Building management oversees a building’s overall operation, including finances and other basic security and cleanliness aspects. Building maintenance focuses specifically on the physical upkeep of a building. Building management and maintenance are two closely related issues. https://www.bd.gov.hk/doc/en/resources/codes-and-references/code-and-design-manuals/bmg/ch3-1.pdf 5 Paragraph 11 of Schedule 2 of the BMO refers. 6https://www.buildingmgt.gov.hk/file_manager/en/documents/bmo_guide/a_guide_on_building_managemen t_ordinance_cap344_en.pdf

5 PMC staff provide property management services to over 2.4 million units of various types of properties in Hong Kong7, indicating a strong demand and reliance on property management services by property owners.

PMCs either are appointed as managers under the DMC or are appointed by owners on a service contract basis (i.e. management agreements) to undertake BMM responsibilities. Similar to OCs, PMCs must comply with financial and procurement-related requirements under the BMO. Schedule 7 of the BMO sets out the requirements with regard to the general duties of a PMC, which include financial arrangements and communications between owners, as well as the arrangements for procurement of goods, supplies and services. As such, PMCs are subject to statutory obligations under the BMO and the Property Management Services Ordinance (Cap. 626) (PMSO), as well as contractual duties under DMCs and management agreements with owners.

The PMSO, enacted in 2019, established a mandatory licensing regime for PMCs and all managerial or supervisory staff of PMCs, also referred to as Property Management Practitioners (PMPs). A PMC providing property management services to the buildings in Hong Kong is required to hold licences8 issued by the Property Management Services Authority (PMSA), which was established under PMSO to implement PMSO, ensuring PMCs and their PMPs meet prescribed standards of competence and integrity. PMSA also issues codes of practice and best practices, prescribes training requirements and carries out regulatory actions (e.g. revocation of licence) on disciplinary offences 9 , e.g. contravention of conditions imposed on the licence, misconduct or neglect in a

7 PMSA Annual Report 2024-2025, page 15 https://www.pmsa.org.hk/ebook/202405/en/15/ 8 PMSO prescribes seven categories of property management services, including (i) general management services; (ii) management of the environment; (iii) repair, maintenance and improvement; (iv) finance and asset management; (v) facility management; (vi) human resources management relating to personnel involved in the management of a property; (vii) legal services relating to the management of a property. PMCs providing two or more categories of services are required to be licensed. 9 In 2024-25, PMSA held in public a total of eight disciplinary hearings. Disciplinary actions taken including verbal warning, written reprimand, severe written reprimand and fine, etc. PMSA Annual Report 2024-2025, page 5 https://www.pmsa.org.hk/ebook/202405/en/4/

6 professional respect, thereby supporting the Government’s objective of professionalising the sector.

In the context of building renovation projects, PMCs and PMC staff play key roles alongside other stakeholders. Their operational proximity to both building renovations and day-to-day building management functions, such as coordinating OC meetings and related voting arrangements, as well as administering tendering processes, places them in positions of considerable influence over procurement decisions.

Consultants and Contractors

In view of the complexity of building renovation works, OCs always engage a consultant to carry out inspections to assess the condition of a building, determine the scope of repairs, manage tender selection exercises and oversee the renovation works at the site. For renovation works subject to statutory notices issued under the Mandatory Building Inspection Scheme (MBIS) 10, a Registered Inspector (RI) must be engaged to take up the role and fulfil the statutory duties as stipulated in the Buildings Ordinance (Cap.123) (BO), the Building (Minor Works) Regulation (Cap. 123N), the Buildings (Inspection and Repair) Regulation (Cap. 123P) (B(I&R)R) (paragraph 21 refers). Contractors are responsible for carrying out the actual renovation works. Pursuant to BO, contractors carrying out prescribed repair under MBIS must also be Buildings Department’s registered contractors (RCs), which must meet the technical requirements prescribed by the Buildings Department (BD)11.

10 https://www.bd.gov.hk/en/safety-inspection/mbis/index.html 11 The BO also requires building renovation works to be carried out by either Registered General Building Contractors or Registered Minor Works Contractors which must meet the technical requirements imposed by the BD for admission and retention onto the registers.

7 Other Stakeholders

In addition to those with direct involvement as mentioned above, the ecosystem surrounding building renovations involves a number of other stakeholders, including Government departments and public bodies. The ICAC deals with corruption and related criminal offences, whereas the Hong Kong Police Force (the Police) deals with criminal activities that are found in building renovations, such as triad involvement, and the Competition Commission (CC)12 deals with bid-rigging activities. The Urban Renewal Authority (URA) is responsible for implementing various supporting schemes to facilitate building rehabilitation. Other stakeholders include BD, HAD and PMSA, whose roles are mentioned in the respective parts of the report.

The Building Renovation Market

As buildings age, they naturally require regular maintenance and, on occasion, large-scale renovations. Owners may choose to undertake such renovations of their own volition, or be required to do so in accordance with existing legislation. The legal and regulatory regime mainly governing building renovations can be found in the BO, B(I&R)R and BMO. The BD is the custodian of the BO and its subsidiary regulations. HAD is the custodian of the BMO.

To tackle the long-standing problem of building neglect, the Government has launched various mandatory inspection schemes and subsidy schemes13 designed to ensure that private building owners discharge their legal

12 A Memorandum of Understanding (MOU) was signed between the ICAC and CC in December 2024 to facilitate future collaboration, which has included capacity building training and joint operations – see Case Study 3. 13 Other statutorily required building maintenance/improvement works include those on fire service installation and fire safety construction measures (enforced by the Fire Services Department and BD), lifts and escalators (by the Electrical and Mechanical Services Department), waterworks (by the Water Supplies Department), sewerage system (by Environmental Protection Department), etc. According to the information of the Development Bureau in 2023, the Government, since 2018, has injected over $19 billion through a number of subsidy schemes to assist property owners to carry out maintenance works in compliance with these statutory orders. https://www.devb.gov.hk/en/home/my_blog/index_id_1529.html?y=2023&p=1

8 statutory responsibilities for maintaining building safety. This report focuses on the framework established by the MBIS and its associated subsidy scheme Operation Building Bright (OBB) 2.0, which were launched in 2012 and 2018 respectively.

Under MBIS, BD selects target buildings aged 30 years or above (except domestic buildings not exceeding three storeys) using a risk-based approach with key factors such as building age, condition, and potential risk to the public. Owners of the selected buildings are issued with statutory notices requiring them to carry out prescribed inspections and repairs. Since the inception of MBIS, around 9,000 buildings, out of 20,000 buildings aged 30 years above in Hong Kong14, have been issued with MBIS statutory notices. In the past three years, around 600 MBIS notices were issued annually.15

OBB was first launched in 2009 to provide financial assistance to owners of old buildings to carry out repair works. In 2018, the Government tasked URA to implement OBB 2.0 16 to provide another round of subsidies. The Government has so far injected a total of $6 billion under OBB 2.0, and its third round of applications closed in September 2023.

OBB 2.0 aims to provide financial support for owner-occupiers of properties with a relatively low average annual rateable value17 to act in compliance with MBIS. Owners of buildings aged 40 or above can apply for OBB 2.0 subsidies regardless of whether the building is subject to MBIS order. Eligible applicants will be subsidised 80 per cent of the cost subject to a cap of $40,000 per unit. For elderly applicants aged 60 or above, they will be subsidised 100 per cent of the cost subject to a cap of $50,000 per unit. Under OBB 2.0, there are Category 1 buildings and

14 Secretary for Development’s opening speech at a Legislative Council meeting on 15.1.2026 https://www.info.gov.hk/gia/general/202601/15/P2026011500259.htm 15 BD’s Controlling Officer’s Report for the 2025/26 financial year, paragraph 7 https://www.budget.gov.hk/2025/eng/pdf/head082.pdf 16 https://www.brplatform.org.hk/en/subsidy-and-assistance/operation-building-bright-2-0 17 The average annual rateable value of domestic units in the building which sited in urban areas should not exceed HK$187,000 or should not exceed HK$143,000 if the building sited in the New Territories.

9 Category 2 buildings 18, with BD taking a more proactive role in the latter by exercising its statutory power to carry out the requisite inspection and repair works in default of owners who have difficulties in co-ordinating the works in compliance with MBIS.

Registered Inspectors (RI)

To implement the MBIS, the Government has since 2011 established the RI scheme specifically to provide a pool of accredited professionals comprising surveyors, engineers and architects. The intention of the RI scheme is to ensure the inspections and repairs mandated under the MBIS are carried out with technical rigour by qualified practitioners. The BO and B(I&R)R prescribe the provisions for the registration, appointment, control and duties of RIs. A Code of Practice 19 specifies the technical standards and procedural requirements for RIs when conducting inspections and repairs. As can be seen from BD’s publication “Layman’s Guide on Mandatory Building Inspection Scheme (Common Parts)”20, the RI plays arguably the most critical role before, during and after building renovations under the MBIS regime, which also means that he is most vulnerable to corrupt or other undue influence. According to the registers maintained by BD on its website, as at December 2025, about 600 persons were registered as RIs, of whom only 128 RIs had expressed an interest in providing MBIS services.21 The small pool of RIs available in the building renovation market heightens their vulnerability.

18 https://www.brplatform.org.hk/f/upload/13481/AN-OBB2.0_OO-ENG.pdf 19 https://www.bd.gov.hk/doc/en/resources/codes-and-references/code-and-design- manuals/CoP_MBIS_MWISe.pdf 20 https://www.bd.gov.hk/doc/en/resources/pamphlets-and-videos/LGMBISCP_e.pdf 21 https://www.bd.gov.hk/en/resources/online-tools/registers- search/registrationsearch.html?reg_type=RI(A),RI(E),RI(S)

10 Smart Tender Building Rehabilitation Facilitating Services Scheme

In 2016, the URA launched the “Smart Tender Building Rehabilitation Facilitating Services Scheme” (Smart Tender)22, a fee-based service scheme to provide technical support to owners in building rehabilitation projects. All private residential or composite (for both commercial and residential use) buildings not in single ownership (except buildings of three storeys or less and New Territories Exempted Houses) may use the Smart Tender services.

URA mandates the use of Smart Tender service for projects receiving Government subsidies. However, property owners not receiving Government subsidies can also use Smart Tender to procure service providers to carry out inspection services and repair works.

Under Smart Tender, URA provides a DIY toolkit that offers guidance on organising building repair and maintenance works. It also features an electronic tendering platform to facilitate the procurement of consultants and contractors. URA handles tender collection through a centralised and electronic approach, with a professional accountant (or independent professional) administering tender opening procedures. URA also engages independent professionals under term contracts, i.e. Building Surveying Consultants, to offer general advice during the tender stage, such as providing cost estimates for OCs’ reference.

To further address the issue of property owners or OCs lacking professional knowledge and experience in selecting service providers to carry out renovation works, and also the prolonged process for reaching a consensus, the URA launched a prequalification list of consultants and contractors in 2024.

Currently, the prequalification list comprises 71 consultancy firms and 108 contractors. Consultancy firms and contractors aiming for prequalification must

22 https://www.brplatform.org.hk/en/subsidy-and-assistance/smart-tender

11 meet a number of requirements, covering areas of technical competencies as well as certain integrity standards, such as no conviction records in the past five years under specified legislation, including POBO. However, the requirements rely largely on the applicant’s self-declaration.

ICAC’s Strategy and Efforts in Combatting Corruption in Building Renovation Works

Prevention is better than cure, and a comprehensive anti-corruption strategy cannot rely on enforcement actions alone. It must include the elements of education and prevention as core principles. The work of CRD and CPD in the building renovation sector is described below.

Community Relations Department: Publicity and Educational Efforts

CRD’s publicity and educational efforts on BMM aim to enhance stakeholders’ awareness and strengthen their ability to address corruption risks. On average, over 4,600 people from over 870 building management bodies including OCs were reached each year. The following initiatives are of note:

(a) CRD conducts proactive outreach to stakeholders in need, including newly established OCs, buildings served with repair orders, fire safety instructions, statutory notices for mandatory building inspections, and those that have successfully applied for various building safety and rehabilitation subsidy schemes, with a view to providing anti-corruption information and services. Over the past three years, CRD has issued over 4,000 letters to building management bodies, but the average response rate has remained low. It reflects the generally low level of interest in BMM matters among property owners and other stakeholders;

12 (b) There is active collaboration between the ICAC and HAD to disseminate probity messages to building management bodies and property owners with briefing sessions through HAD’s Central Platform on Building Management, district seminars, and feature articles in district Building Management Newsletter. In addition, the ICAC also proactively engages 18 District Councils, and OCs’ associations/alliances at the district level to promote integrity and gather feedback on the ICAC services;

(c) CRD has joined hands with the PMSA to enhance the professional ethics of the industry, and cooperates with relevant Government departments / organisations, including the BD, the Police, the URA, and other professional bodies, to promote integrity in BMM;

(d) CRD produces a wide range of reference materials, including toolkits, training videos, self-learning packages, feature articles, leaflets, and poster sets. These materials are uploaded to the ICAC’s “Integrity and Quality Building Management” thematic website to meet different stakeholders’ needs23;

(e) Enforcement actions are publicised through press releases and live- streamed press conferences where appropriate, to raise public awareness and vigilance against potential corruption risks in building renovations;

(f) In a recent drama series, ICAC Investigators (2024), one of the episodes featured the theme of building renovations in order to educate the general public against the evils of corruption in the sector;

(g) Advisory services are also available through the Integrity in Building Management Enquiry Hotline and its regional offices; and

23 ICAC Website “Integrity and Quality Building Management” https://bm.icac.hk/?lang=en

13 (h) Mindful of the fact that problems in the sector are long-standing and multi- faceted involving many stakeholders, the ICAC in June 2025 hosted the first ever Building Management Summit. This pulled together over 300 stakeholders, including representatives from a number of relevant Government departments, regulatory and professional bodies24 , District Council members from all 18 districts, OCs, property owners, and property management professionals. The summit served as a platform for direct exchange and cross-sector collaboration to tackle the problems.

Corruption Prevention Department: Systemic Prevention Work

CPD provides proactive and early-stage corruption prevention advice to relevant Government departments and public bodies in respect of their policies and initiatives regarding building renovations. This includes advice on registration of building professionals and contractors, as well as administration of the MBIS. CPD has also provided recommendations to HAD on legislative amendments to the BMO, including enhancement to procurement requirements (e.g. declarations of conflict of interest by stakeholders in tender exercises, particularly for building renovation projects) and improvements to proxy arrangements to prevent manipulation and falsification.

In situations where deeper systemic risks are identified (e.g. matters involving significant public interest, complex operational arrangements), CPD conducts targeted and comprehensive reviews of work systems and procedures of the Government departments and public bodies, through assignment studies. Such in‑depth studies are undertaken in accordance with CPD’s strategy of prioritising areas where systemic improvements can generate significant preventive impact, with the objective of enhancing governance and overall corruption‑prevention capability.

24 Buildings Department, Home Affairs Department, Hong Kong Police Force, Competition Commission, Property Management Services Authority, Urban Renewal Authority, Hong Kong Institute of Architects, Hong Kong Institution of Engineers and Hong Kong Institute of Surveyors.

14 31.

To support frontline implementation, CPD has developed a range of industry-specific preventive guidelines, toolkits and pamphlets that provide step‑by‑step guidance for OCs, PMCs and property owners on planning and managing building renovation projects 25 . These materials incorporate good-governance and integrity elements consistent with CPD’s partnership approach with regulatory authorities and professional bodies, and leverage the influence of these organisations to promote such principles to property owners. CPD has also organised training programmes to directly promote these integrity elements through active engagement with the sector, and help stakeholders implement sound governance practice.

However, no amount of educational material or preventative measures can be completely effective if unscrupulous elements deliberately circumvent the relevant requirements and guidelines. When that happens, it easily leads to complaints and allegations of corruption, bid-rigging, fraud and other illegal activities or improper conduct from property owners and others whose lives and livelihood are impacted by these criminals.

Operations Department: Law Enforcement Efforts

Corruption complaints concerning building renovations

Corruption complaints regarding BMM issues, which impact on the livelihood and well-being of the whole of the Hong Kong community, have for many years accounted for about 25% of all complaints made to the ICAC each year. Complaints relating to BMM can be divided into three main categories: building renovations, other maintenance and repair projects, and general property management matters (e.g. staff issues, building security, cleaning etc.). Most BMM

25 The CPD publications include (i) Building Maintenance Toolkit; (ii) Building Financial Management Toolkit; (iii) Building Management Toolkit; (iv) Property Management Corruption Prevention Red Flag; (v) Corruption Prevention Guide for Property Management Companies; and (vi) Corruption Prevention 101 – Building Maintenance Tips for Owners https://bm.icac.hk/Building_Maintenance_Toolkit.html?lang=en; https://bm.icac.hk/Pamphlets.html?lang=en

15 complaints comprise nothing more than the allegation based on suspicion, and generally lack any substantive supporting information.

The statistics below refer to complaints in respect of building renovations, which are the focus of this report, for the period 2023-2025.

Complaints

*A complaint may refer to a single block, or a single residential estate that comprises multiple blocks, and there may be more than one complaint about the same building / estate concerning different allegations.

Within the Operations Department, there is a dedicated group comprising around 50 investigating officers to deal with corruption complaints concerning BMM (including those relating to building renovations). Where necessary, officers from other investigation groups may be drawn to assist, or a task force may be set up to deal with major cases.

After the Operations Department receives a corruption complaint, a categorisation process takes place each working day at a meeting of the department’s directorate officers. Pursuable corruption complaints will be passed onto the investigation sections, while non-pursuable and non-corruption complaints may be referred to relevant departments or agencies for necessary actions, as appropriate.

In order to encourage the public to report corruption and because of the insidious nature of corruption as mentioned above, a low threshold is deliberately adopted for classification of pursuable complaints. Members of the public may report corruption simply based on their own suspicions, without the need to supply any corroborating evidence to support their allegations. Anonymous complaints may 2023 2024 2025 No. of corruption complaints* 76 63 100 No. of pursuable complaints* 70 57 93

16 also be investigated by investigation sections, depending on the level of information provided.

Focusing on the complaints regarding building renovations over the last three years (2023-2025), the figures above show that the Operations Department launched formal investigations in respect of 220 out of 239 complaints (or 92%). Due to the low threshold of launching an investigation, many complaints were investigated despite limited substance. This is because it is difficult to judge the substance of a case based merely on the surface of an allegation, so the ICAC will normally open an investigation when a traceable complainant makes a corruption allegation. Whether a case merits the allocation of more resources and subsequent in-depth investigation depends on the amount and reliability of information provided by the complainant, the findings of preliminary enquiries, and other factors such as previous investigations or other useful intelligence.

The role of the investigation sections is to find out whether the corruption allegation has substance and if so, who is involved, with the aim of gathering evidence to determine whether a criminal prosecution should be mounted.

For the purpose of investigation into corruption and its related offences, investigating officers are empowered by the law or, where appropriate, with court authorisation, to exercise powers of arrest, detention, search, access to accounts and tax records, restraint on assets, etc.

Under Article 63 of the Basic Law, the Department of Justice (DoJ) shall control criminal prosecutions, free from any interference. By the separation of investigation and prosecutions powers, the ICAC conducts investigations and analyses, and then forwards the case evidence to the DoJ for consideration of mounting a prosecution. Under the POBO, the consent of the Secretary for Justice is required for the prosecution of the offences listed in Part II of the POBO, which includes the main corruption offences of solicitation or acceptance of advantages,

17 bribery, corrupt transactions with agents and possession of unexplained property. Figures in relation to arrests and prosecutions concerning building renovations for the last three years are shown below.

Arrests and Prosecutions

*The number of persons prosecuted may may not refer to the persons arrested in the same year as it takes time to proceed from investigation to prosecution.

Early Intervention

According to the Prosecution Code, there must be legally sufficient evidence to support a prosecution, i.e. the evidence is admissible and reliable, and demonstrate that there is a reasonable prospect of conviction. This is a high threshold. The prosecution rates shown above reflect inherent challenges in investigating these cases. Therefore, the ICAC has to assess the likelihood of securing sufficient evidence to charge suspects, and balance this against the interests of the building owners. So, beyond conducting investigations and mounting prosecutions, the Operations Department also adopts early intervention tactics, when issues appear to be looming in a particular building or estate but where, despite suspicion, evidence is unlikely to be obtained. The aim is to alert building owners to possible risks of corruption, bid-rigging and/or other fraudulent activities, and to deter and frustrate criminal syndicates from pursuing their illicit plan. Over the last three years, the ICAC carried out early intervention in a total of 20 cases, involving 32 buildings / estates, in order to frustrate impending corrupt activities in the building renovation sector.

2023 2024 2025 No. of persons arrested 58 34 45 No. of persons prosecuted* 24 0 0

18 43.

The case studies below are a sample of the investigations conducted by ICAC into the building renovation sector. They highlight the nature of corruption and other criminal and illicit activities in the sector.

Case Study 1

In July 2013, a building renovation project of a private residential estate was awarded to a contractor at $262M. After that, a number of property owners made complaints to the ICAC alleging possible corruption in the project. However, the allegations were based mainly on the high contract price of the project and no useful information was provided to support the suspicion. Investigation of these complaints did not yield any fruitful results.

A few months later, a middleman came forward to make a report to the ICAC. Under caution, the middleman admitted his role in assisting the contractor to secure the renovation project. According to the middleman, other parties involved included some PMC staff, MC members as well as the consultant, who had secured his appointment for the project at an unreasonably low price of $880,000 (i.e. 0.34% of the project sum). Most bribe payments would be paid in cash and through middlemen. A number of dummy companies were also set up to participate and rig the tender exercises. The abovementioned compromised parties would allegedly share kickbacks from the contractor totalling around 17.5% of the project sum, i.e. $46 million. The middleman confessed that he reported the matter to the ICAC after failing to obtain his share of the payment.

During his report to the ICAC, the middleman further admitted involvement in scams at two other residential estates involving different syndicates. Similar deceptive and corrupt means were said to be employed by the other two syndicates.

Protracted enquiries by the ICAC identified the suspects and more associates, as well as some suspicious fund flows. An arrest and search operation

19 was mounted. Examination of voluminous seizures revealed that possible false accounting and business records were used to conceal suspected bribe payments. However, no witnesses were available to give evidence about the records, or otherwise against the syndicate.

Follow up investigation revealed suspicious bank transactions between an associate of the contractor and a maintenance manager of the PMC of the estate. Under caution, the maintenance manager admitted having accepted $200,000 for disclosing the tender information of other bidders to the associate, who however denied the allegation.

The middleman and the maintenance manager were charged with corruption offences and convicted upon their own guilty plea. The middleman, who was involved in corruption schemes across three residential estates, was sentenced to 35 months’ imprisonment after pleading guilty to four corruption charges. The maintenance manager was sentenced to six months’ imprisonment.

Subsequently, the middleman provided a non-prejudicial statement seeking to implicate other syndicate members. However, as his evidence was uncorroborated, and given his dubious credibility, the DoJ considered there was no reasonable prospect of convicting his accomplices, and hence did not advise prosecution.

This case exposed deeply embedded, organized crime in the building renovation sector. Criminals used cash, middlemen, dummy firms, and false records to evade detection. Protracted enquiries could not gather direct evidence against key syndicate members and, even when resorting to evidence from an accomplice, such evidence was tainted and considered unreliable for prosecution.

While most culprits escaped justice, the case was widely publicised and reported in the media, thus raising public awareness of possible corruption and bid- 20 rigging activities in the building renovation sector. On the other hand, the suspected bogus business transactions were subsequently referred to the Inland Revenue Department for follow-up on tax matters, in an effort to deter such financial fraud. Case Study 2 Paragraphs 53-59 refer to Operation “Fire Net”. Cases are pending trial and the contents of these paragraphs are sub-judice. ICAC Press Conferences: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6CDPv2uHm3w https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-Ih8vLJPlA Case Study 3 Paragraphs 60-66 refer to Operation “Shotgun”. Investigation is ongoing and disclosure of these paragraphs may prejudice ongoing enquiries. ICAC Press Conference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K53MSR4QZfI ICAC Press Releases at Annexes A and B Case Study 4 67. This case involved a public housing estate under the Tenants Purchase Scheme, whereby 84% of the flats at the estate were sold to the tenants while the remainder were owned by the Government, represented by the Housing Department (HD), for public rental purposes. As a representative of the Government, one HD officer was a member of the MC of the estate, but HD policy was that the officer would refrain from voting on routine management matters so as to remain neutral.

21 68.

In June 2021, upon receipt of an MBIS order, the MC of the estate resolved to conduct a building renovation project and to conduct an open tender, instead of using the Smart Tender services of URA, to select consultant and contractor for the project. The MC conducted the tender exercise and appointed a consultancy firm to supervise the contract. The consultant subsequently gave an estimated cost of $171 million for the project. During the owners’ meeting for the selection of a contractor, many property owners considered that the price was unreasonably high and criticised the MC for not using the Smart Tender scheme of URA. Some property owners suspected proxy manipulation was involved in the owners’ meeting, which was then called off after much dispute.

At the same time, the ICAC received complaints from some property owners, alleging possible corruption between the MC members, including the Chairman and the consultant, based on the property owners’ dissatisfaction with the project as mentioned above. Meanwhile, due to strong opposition from property owners, no further owners’ meeting could be convened to select the contractor. On the other hand, property owners also reported to the Police suspected fraudulent activities related to the alleged proxy manipulation.

Protracted enquiries by the ICAC revealed that on several occasions, two triad members, who had business ties with the consultancy firm and some of the contractors bidding for the project, had met certain MC Members and a middleman. The triad pair might have given advice on how to convene an owners’ meeting to ensure that the tender exercise would result in the selection of the contractor that they had favoured. It also transpired that the pair might have assisted the MC Members to collect proxies from some property owners, in order to facilitate them to manipulate voting at the owners’ meetings to achieve outcomes in their favour.

Knowing that there would be no turning back once a contractor was selected, and that no amount of subsequent enforcement action would be able to protect the well-being of the property owners, ICAC apprised HD of the situation.

22 HD eventually agreed to participate in the vote at an owners’ meeting. In the end, the property owners resolved by a majority of votes to terminate the contract with the consultancy firm and re-tender for the project through the Smart Tender platform.

An arrest and search operation was then mounted by the ICAC. No useful evidence was unearthed during the operation and legal advice precluded prosecution due to a lack of evidence to prove corruption or other crimes. Afterwards, the case was referred to HAD and the HD for their actions in respect of the proxy management matter. In respect of the investigation by the Police on proxy manipulation, it was understood that no prosecution was initiated as there was no evidence to prove who had handled or submitted the proxies in question.

This case showed how undue influence could be exerted on an MC by triad members. In addition, it demonstrated that in Tenants Purchase Scheme estates, HD as a major landlord can play an important proactive role in safeguarding the integrity of building renovation projects. In this case, although extensive investigation could not secure sufficient evidence to prosecute the suspects, HD had exercised its voting rights in order to frustrate the syndicate in the execution of its scheme, thereby triggering a re-tender for the project using the Smart Tender platform. While Smart Tender is not fool-proof, the fact that the syndicate had tried every means to avoid using it suggested that it could be a useful barrier to some criminals.

Case Study 5

Paragraphs 74-78 refer to an ongoing ICAC investigation. Disclosure of these paragraphs may prejudice ongoing enquiries.

Case Study 6

Paragraphs 79-83 refer to an ongoing ICAC investigation. Disclosure of these paragraphs may prejudice ongoing enquiries.

23 Case Study 7

The PMC of one old private residential building also managed several other aged private residential buildings where renovation projects were being carried out or about to be carried out. In December 2023, the ICAC received an anonymous complaint alleging that the proprietor of the PMC had solicited or accepted bribes of 3% to 5% of the project sums from the consultants and contractors, in return for his assistance in securing renovation projects for the latter. According to the complaint, in order to facilitate the corrupt arrangement, the proprietor of the PMC required the contractors to purchase certain materials for the project from a designated supplier at an inflated price, with the inflated amount to be reverted as bribes to the proprietor. Based on ICAC’s assessment, an investigation was opened even though the complainant was anonymous.

Investigation revealed that, in a renovation project of the first building, the contractor had in fact purchased the materials from the designated supplier, and that a family member of the PMC proprietor had a financial interest in that supplier. However, protracted enquiries could not reveal any payment of bribes or suspicious contacts between the proprietor of the PMC, and the relevant consultants and contractors some of whom had triad background.

ICAC did not reveal any evidence to implicate the suspects in the corrupt arrangement. With regard to the potential conflict of interest arising from the financial interest of the PMC proprietor’s family in the materials supplier, the MC confirmed that they had no system in place to deal with such conflicts of interest.

Knowing that tender exercises were ongoing for renovation projects at four other private residential buildings managed by the PMC, the ICAC proactively approached the MCs of these buildings and alerted them to the risks of corruption involved in the tender exercises.

24 88.

Although the investigation was based on information supplied anonymously, it revealed possible corrupt involvement of the proprietor of a PMC in the tender exercises. The investigation could not secure sufficient evidence to initiate a prosecution, so an early intervention strategy was adopted to alert the MCs of the four other buildings managed by the same PMC to the risks of corruption. The MC also lacked the relevant knowledge to implement a system to deal with potential conflicts of interest26. Some of the buildings in this case also involved the MBIS, OBB 2.0 funding and use of the Smart Tender platform.

Case Study 8

Paragraphs 89-94 refer to an ongoing ICAC investigation. Disclosure of these paragraphs may prejudice ongoing enquiries. ICAC Press Release at Annex C

Summary

Even though the Smart Tender scheme was deployed in several of the renovation projects involved in these investigations, there was ample evidence of blatant manipulation of tender exercises to appoint consultants to oversee the projects, with the bids consistently being unreasonably low. On occasion, the RI appointed by the consultant to oversee the project was in fact a mere dummy, who exercised little or no supervision over the project, and was only appointed to satisfy the statutory requirements imposed under the BO. In many instances the contractor was often part of a crime syndicate with triad connection, who would collude with the consultant and other contractors to rig the bids, corrupt members of the MC and PMC, or deploy other illegal means (e.g. faking proxies) in order to manipulate the selection of the contractor for the project.

26 This situation has been overtaken by events since the BMO amendments that took effect on 13 July 2025. Now a responsible person for the procurement of large-scale building renovations has to make a declaration of any pecuniary or other personal interest in relevant suppliers.

25 96.

However, as will have become obvious from the investigations described, criminal activities in building renovations are inherently difficult to investigate and prosecute despite protracted investigative efforts, due to its secretive and syndicated nature. Corruption, undeclared conflicts of interest, fraud and bid- rigging are often hidden behind layers of intermediaries and shell companies. Infights and disputes always complicate the issue. The illicit payments are customarily made in cash making it difficult to trace illicit funds, let alone proving its corrupt purpose. Potential witnesses, if any (including property owners or junior staff members of contractors, consultants and PMCs), may fear retaliation especially when triads are involved. They are therefore often reluctant to come forward to assist. When there is not enough evidence to meet the high standard of proof required, criminal prosecution becomes impossible. Therefore, the ICAC also adopts a proactive approach intervention strategy to disrupt impending illegal activities taking into account the overall interests of property owners.

The ICAC has on different occasions learnt from senior office bearers of the professional bodies representing surveyors, engineers and architects registered in Hong Kong that their members are unwilling to join the building renovation industry. These and other similar anecdotal accounts strongly suggest that the industry is dominated by unscrupulous operators, many with triad or dubious background, which has deterred ordinary and innocent professionals from joining the industry due to intimidation and unfair competition (i.e. unrealistically low consultancy fees).

CONCLUSION

The building renovation sector in Hong Kong has become a huge and highly lucrative market, as a result of the confluence of legal and regulatory maintenance requirements and the continual funding sustained by property owners’ contributions and substantial Government subsidies under various rehabilitation

26 schemes. This high-value environment operates largely within a framework that is built on an honour system, which relies on trust and integrity on the part of the consultants and contractors to function. It however contains inherent and apparent structural vulnerabilities. The primary legal responsibility for maintenance of building lies with the property owners but, through no fault of their own, they often lack the specialized technical expertise and experience required to plan and oversee complex renovation projects. As a loose entity with collective responsibility, it is also challenging for property owners to reach a consensus and hence disputes are not uncommon.

This combination of high financial incentives and structural gaps has allowed the market to be infiltrated by unscrupulous operators. Organized syndicates, employing illicit methods such as corruption, triad tactics, bid-rigging and fraud to manipulate the tendering processes, are driven by the potential profits to seek a dominant market share. The presence and tactics of these actors have created an uneven playing field, leading many honest and reputable professionals to actively decline participating in the market because of concerns over unfair competition and professional integrity.

The result is a self-perpetuating cycle: the withdrawal of ethical professionals further distorts the ecosystem in favour of nefarious elements, limiting choices for property owners and entrenching the dominance of problematic service providers. This cycle cannot be broken and reversed without targeted intervention. Therefore, any proposed measures to rectify the situation must be designed to disrupt and drive out the bad players on one hand, and on the other to create a fair and attractive environment that encourages good players to join the industry, so as to rebuild public confidence. 27 101. For its part, the ICAC will continue to adopt the three-pronged strategy. Community education and systemic prevention work remain vital for strengthening the capacity and resilience of property owners and others to fight corruption and bid- rigging, by raising public awareness and strengthening procedural safeguards to plug loopholes in the system. On the enforcement side, the overall objective is to make corruption in the building renovation sector a high-risk crime which will create the deterrent effect to drive out the bad players. Despite inherent challenges in dealing with complex and syndicated crime in the sector, ICAC will continue to proactively and vigilantly investigate all allegations of corruption and seek to prosecute the offenders whenever possible. At the same time, early intervention strategies will also be actively deployed when appropriate to frustrate corrupt schemes before they can negatively impact on property owners. Given that we are fighting a multi-faceted problem, enhanced inter-agency collaboration and intelligence exchange with the CC and other stakeholder agencies will also be key priorities.

Independent Commission Against Corruption January 2026

Post-report note: Between February and May 2026, the ICAC mounted three major law enforcement operations against corrupt syndicates targeting building maintenance projects, including Operation “Lion Rock” and Joint Operation “Scabbard” with the Police (ICAC Press Releases at Annexes D to F). For Case Study 3, a further Press Release in relation to charging of suspects was issued by the ICAC on 25 March 2026 (Annex G).

INDEPENDENT COMMISSION AGAINST CORRUPTION 廉政 公 署 2024 年4 月18 日 新聞稿 聯合新聞稿:廉署與競委會首次採取聯合行動 搗破樓宇維修工程 貪污及圍標集團拘20 人 廉政公署(廉署)與競爭事務委員會(競委會)過去兩日(4 月16 日及17 日) 首次採取聯合行動,搗破一個新冒起的樓宇維修工程貪污及圍標 集團。廉署在聯合行動中拘捕20 名人士,分別為17 男3 女,年齡介 乎36 歲至70 歲,包括該集團的主腦及骨幹成員,涉及工程承辦商、 工程顧問、中間人、業主立案法團成員以及物業管理公司職員。 廉署與競委會於聯合行動中,根據法庭手令搜查了共約40 個處所, 包括多間工程承辦商、顧問公司及物業管理公司的辦公室,以及涉 案人士的住所等,並檢走多項證物,包括多部電腦及手提電話,以 及與樓宇維修工程相關的招標文件等。 在今次行動中,競委會行使了其強制權力,除了持法庭手令搜查處 所,亦要求有關各方交出文件和資料。行動期間,有個別人士拒絕 提供有關資料,妨礙競委會的調查工作,此為《競爭條例》第52 條 及第54 條所訂明的刑事罪行,競委會會作出跟進。 涉案公司及人士涉嫌行賄受賄以及從事反競爭行為,藉此操控樓宇 維修工程的招標程序,將工程標價誇大,協助與集團有關的承辦商 取得工程及顧問合約,並操控監督維修工程及發放工程費用,違反 《防止賄賂條例》第9 條及《競爭條例》的「第一行為守則」。 行動共涉及兩個位於港島的住宅屋苑及商住樓宇,以及四個位於新 界的住宅屋苑及工業大廈的多項維修工程項目,合約總值約1.8 億元, 個別合約金額由數百萬元至數千萬元不等。個別工程項目懷疑涉及 賄款逾100 萬元。其中一半涉案的維修工程合約仍未批出,而其餘的 維修工程則早於廉署及競委會展開調查前已經開始進行。 …/2 Annex A

廉署及競委會相信集團已被瓦解,但由於調查仍在進行,不排除再 採取執法行動。廉署及競委會現階段不會就有關案件作進一步評論。 今次廉署與競委會首次採取聯合行動,充分展現出雙方決心打擊涉 及樓宇維修的貪污及潛在反競爭行為。廉署及競委會會繼續與其他 執法部門及相關機構保持緊密聯繫,確保樓宇維修業的廉潔及公平 競爭,保障業主權益。

調查源自有熱心市民早前向廉署舉報涉及樓宇維修的貪污投訴,廉 署經深入調查後發現上述貪污及圍標集團,並揭發該集團涉及其他 屋苑/樓宇的維修工程。而競委會早前亦接獲情報,指有涉案的公 司於多個樓宇維修工程中,從事反競爭行為。競委會及後深入跟進, 並信納有合理因由懷疑有關項目已成為合謀的目標,因而將個案提 升至調查階段。

廉署呼籲,如業主或任何人士懷疑樓宇維修工程涉及貪污,應立即 向廉署舉報或查詢。廉署24 小時貪污舉報熱線:25 266 366。

競委會呼籲任何人士,如可就個案或有關反競爭行為提供資料,請 盡快透過電話(3462 2118)或電郵(complaints@compcomm.hk)與競 委會聯絡。競委會會將收到的所有資料保密,包括資料提供者的身 份。而認為自己可能已從事或牽涉入合謀行為的人士,則應盡快聯 絡競委會申請寬待或提供合作(寬待熱線:3996 8010、電郵: leniency@compcomm.hk)。

廉署一直以執法、預防及教育的「三管齊下」策略,打擊涉及樓宇 管理業的貪污情況。廉署繼續主動接觸大廈管理組織,呼籲業主積 極參與樓宇管理事務,對維修項目的貪污風險提高警惕。此外,廉 署與相關政府部門、監管機構、專業團體及商會等合辦各類誠信培 訓,加強業界人士的防貪能力建設,拒絕貪污誘惑。廉署亦製作了 多元實用的防貪教育資源並上載於廉署「誠信優質樓宇管理」專題 網站(bm.icac.hk),同時亦設有誠信樓宇管理諮詢熱線2929 4555, 歡迎市民查詢。

廉署最近編製了《防貪攻略 – 樓宇維修》業主篇單張,列出在樓宇 維修工程中業主要留意的事項,並提供相關防貪建議及有用資料。 市民現可於廉署防貪諮詢服務網頁(cpas.icac.hk)下載有關單張。

…/3

Annex A

樓宇維修是全港業主非常關心的議題,競委會一直主動跟進涉及相 關市場的個案。包括圍標在內的合謀行為,在《競爭條例》下屬於 嚴重反競爭行為,除了採取執法行動外,競委會一直積極推行宣傳 教育,以提升公眾對圍標這議題的認知,及協助採購人員加強防範, 當中包括於網站推出一系列教育資源,同時亦積極接觸各區人士, 出席由不同政府部門、區議會及公營機構舉辦的地區活動,向業主 及物業管理人員作講解。 另外,競委會亦推出了一套「不合謀條款」範本,供採購人員加入 其招標文件及採購合約內,以減低他們在採購過程中面對反競爭行 爲的風險。該條款旨在警告競投者不得作出反競爭安排,以及作出 這些安排的後果,一旦有違反條款的情況,亦可為採購方提供清晰、 直接的合約保障。

(完)

April 18, 2024

Press release

Joint press release: Twenty netted, syndicate smashed in ICAC and Competition Commission first joint operation against corruption and tender- rigging over building maintenance

The ICAC and the Competition Commission conducted their first joint operation in the past two days (April 16 and 17), neutralising a newly-rising syndicate engaging in corruption and tender-rigging in relation to building maintenance. In the joint operation, the ICAC arrested 20 persons, namely 17 men and three women aged between 36 and 70, including the mastermind and backbone members of the syndicate. The arrestees included project contractors, project consultants, middlemen, members of Incorporated Owners and members of property management companies.

In the joint operation, search warrants were executed by the ICAC and the Competition Commission to conduct searches at about 40 premises, including offices of the aforementioned project contractors, consultancies and property management companies, as well as residences of the individuals concerned. Various exhibits were also seized, including computers, mobile phones, and tendering documents relating to building maintenance projects, etc. …/4 Annex A

The Competition Commission has exercised its compulsory powers in the operation. In addition to searching premises with warrants, it also requested relevant parties to produce documents and information. During the course of the operation, certain individuals had refused to provide relevant information. The Competition Commission will follow up on this obstruction of its investigation powers, which is criminal in nature under Sections 52 and 54 of the Competition Ordinance. The companies and individuals concerned were alleged to have engaged in corruption and anti-competitive activities, contravening Section 9 of the Prevention of Bribery Ordinance and the First Conduct Rule of the Competition Ordinance. Through bribery means, they had allegedly manipulated the tendering exercises of building maintenance projects, exaggerated contracts sums, assisted associated contractors to secure maintenance projects and consultancy contracts, and manipulated project supervision and project payment release.

The operation involved renovation projects of a residential estate and a residential- commercial composite building on Hong Kong Island, as well as four residential estates and industrial buildings in the New Territories. Individual contracts of such renovation projects worth from several millions to several tens of millions dollars, totalling around $180 million. It is alleged that bribe payments of individual projects amounted to over $1 million. Half of the renovation projects were yet to be awarded, while works of the remaining projects had been launched prior to the commencement of the ICAC and Competition Commission investigations.

The ICAC and the Competition Commission believe that the syndicate concerned has been neutralised. As inquiries are ongoing, further law enforcement actions will not be ruled out. No further comment on the case will be made by the ICAC and the Competition Commission at this stage.

The joint operation conducted by the ICAC and the Competition Commission demonstrated the determination of the two agencies in cracking down corruption and potential anti-competitive activities in building maintenance. The two agencies will continue to maintain close liaison with other law enforcement agencies and related authorities to ensure a clean and level-playing field for the building maintenance industry and to safeguard the rights of property owners.

…/5

Annex A

The investigations arose from a corruption complaint in relation to building maintenance lodged with the ICAC by members of the public. In-depth inquiries by the ICAC uncovered the aforementioned syndicate and their alleged involvement in other residential estates and buildings. Meanwhile, the Competition Commission had also received intelligence earlier alleging anti-competitive conduct in relation to various building maintenance projects. The Competition Commission followed up on the case and was satisfied that there was reasonable cause to suspect that the concerned projects had been the target of collusion. The Competition Commission therefore decided to escalate the case to the investigation phase. The ICAC calls on property owners and members of the public that, should they suspect corruption is involved in building maintenance, they should make enquiries or report to the ICAC. The ICAC’s report corruption hotline: 25 266 366.

The Competition Commission calls on anyone who can provide information on the matter or the relevant practices to contact the Competition Commission as soon as possible by telephone on 3462 2118 or by e-mail at complaints@compcomm.hk. The Competition Commission will keep any information provided, including the identity of informants, confidential. Those who consider that they may have engaged or been involved in cartel conduct should approach the Commission as soon as possible for leniency or co-operation (Leniency Hotline: 3996 8010; e-mail: leniency@compcomm.hk).

The ICAC has adopted a three-pronged approach of enforcement, prevention and education in fighting corruption in relation to the building management industry. The ICAC will continue to proactively approach building management bodies and encourage flat owners to stay vigilant against corruption in renovation works through active participation in building management. In collaboration with different government departments, professional bodies, regulators and trade associations, the ICAC will continue to organise integrity training to enhance practitioners’ anti- corruption capacity and resistance to bribery temptations. The ICAC has also produced a wide range of practical education resources which are available in the Integrity and Quality Building Management website (bm.icac.hk). Citizens are also welcome to call the Integrity Building Management Enquiry Hotline at 2929 4555 for ICAC services.

…/6

Annex A

The ICAC has recently compiled the “Corruption Prevention 101 – Building Maintenance Tips for Owners” leaflet, which lists out the key points-to-note in relation to building maintenance projects, and provides relevant corruption prevention suggestions and information. Members of the public can now download the leaflet from the ICAC Corruption Prevention Advisory Service webpage (cpas.icac.hk). Building maintenance has been a matter of great concern for property owners in Hong Kong, and the Competition Commission has been proactively following up on cases in the relevant market. Cartel conduct such as bid-rigging, is specified as a serious anti-competitive conduct under the Competition Ordinance. In addition to enforcement actions, the Competition Commission has been actively launching publicity and educational initiatives to raise public awareness of such anti- competitive conduct, and to assist procurers in strengthening their preventive efforts. Apart from rolling out a series of educational resources on its website, the Competition Commission also reaches out to the community by speaking at briefings organised by different government departments, District Councils and public bodies targeting property owners and property management practitioners across different districts in Hong Kong.

Separately, the Competition Commission has also published a set of model “Non- collusion Clauses” for procurers to incorporate into their invitation to bid documents and contracts, with a view to reducing their exposure to anti-competitive conduct during procurement exercises. In essence, the “Non-collusion Clauses” serve to warn bidders of the prohibition against, and consequences of, entering into anti- competitive arrangements, as well as to provide a clear and straightforward contractual remedy for procurers in the event that these clauses have been breached.

X X X Annex A

INDEPENDENT COMMISSION AGAINST CORRUPTION 廉政 公 署 2024 年8 月26 日 新聞稿 廉署與競委會再度展開聯合行動 打擊樓宇維修工程貪污圍標 廉政公署(廉署)與競爭事務委員會(競委會)一連兩日(8 月21 日及22 日)展開聯合行動。今次行動是繼4 月中兩個機構首次進行代號「獵 槍」的聯合行動打擊一個新冒起的貪污圍標集團後,經過四個月深 入調查,詳細分析所收集到的證據,發現該集團有其他涉嫌貪污和 圍標行為,遂展開進一步執法行動。 廉署於是次行動再拘捕5 人和會見22 人,包括工程承辦商、工程顧 問、中間人、物業管理公司及業主立案法團成員。 兩個機構在聯合行動中根據法庭手令搜查了共約20 個地點,包括多 間工程承辦商及顧問公司的辦公室,涉案人士的住所等,並檢走多 項證物。競委會亦行使了其強制權力,要求有關公司和人士交出文 件和資料,以及出席競委會的聆訊以提供相關資料。 涉案公司及人士涉嫌行賄受賄以及從事反競爭行為,藉此操控樓宇 維修工程的招標程序,將工程標價誇大,協助與集團有關的承辦商 取得工程合約。 是次廉署調查,主要針對兩個位於港島的住宅屋苑之維修工程,懷 疑涉及貪污罪行,工程合約合共約1.4 億港元。兩個屋苑均有該集團 骨幹成員涉嫌透過中間人,向業主立案法團成員提供利益,以確保 該集團控制的兩間建築工程公司,分別取得兩個屋苑的維修工程合 約,涉嫌違反《防止賄賂條例》第9 條。涉案的維修工程並未執行。 而競委會今次行動涉及38 個分別位於港島、九龍及新界的住宅屋苑/ 大廈及工業大廈的維修工程,涉案工程合約總值逾10 億港元,個別 合約金額達2.6 億港元,部份維修工程合約仍未批出,部份合約則已 被推翻,而個別維修工程早於競委會展開調查前已經開始進行。 …/2 Annex B

在該38 個住宅屋苑/大廈及工廈的維修工程招標期間,涉案公司及人 士涉嫌直接,或透過中間人交換並協調投標價格,部分工程承辦商 則作掩護式投標,以操控投標結果。有關行為構成圍標、合謀定價 及交換影響競爭的敏感資料,違反《競爭條例》下的「第一行為守 則」。 由於調查仍在進行,廉署及競委會現階段不會就有關案件作進一步 評論。

連串的聯合執法行動,展現了廉署與競委會決心捍衛樓宇維修業界 廉潔及公平競爭的環境,絕不姑息有關貪污和反競爭行為。兩個機 構會繼續與其他執法部門及相關機構緊密合作,竭力打擊相關的犯 罪份子,保障全港業主的權益。

廉署呼籲,如業主或任何人士懷疑樓宇維修工程涉及貪污,應立即 向廉署舉報或查詢。廉署24 小時貪污舉報熱線:25 266 366。競委 會呼籲任何人士,如可就個案或有關反競爭行為提供資料,請盡快 透過電話(3462 2118)或電郵(complaints@compcomm.hk)與競委會 聯絡,而認為自己可能已從事或牽涉入合謀行為的人士,則應盡快 聯絡競委會申請寬待或提供合作(寬待熱線:3996 8010、電郵: leniency@compcomm.hk)。

廉署一直嚴厲執法打擊涉及樓宇管理界的貪污問題,同時以制度預 防及宣傳教育,加强樓宇管理組織及業主抵禦貪污的能力。廉署將 繼續主動接觸大廈管理組織,及早介入懷疑有貪污風險的大廈維修 工程,呼籲業主積極參與樓宇管理事務,對維修項目的貪污風險提 高警惕。針對樓宇維修工程中常見的貪污風險,廉署編製及派發了 《防貪攻略–樓宇維修》單張,為業主提供防貪建議及相關資料。 市民可於廉署防貪諮詢服務網頁(cpas.icac.hk)下載有關單張。此外, 廉署與相關政府部門、監管機構、專業團體及商會等合辦各類培訓 及講座,提升業界人士的專業誠信水平,提醒他們應堅拒貪污誘惑。 廉署亦製作了多元實用的防貪教育資源並上載於廉署「誠信優質樓 宇管理」專題網站(bm.icac.hk),同時亦設有誠信樓宇管理諮詢熱線 2929 4555,歡迎市民查詢。

除執法外,競委會一直透過宣傳教育,加強公眾對圍標及其他合謀 行為的認知,同時亦協助採購人員加強防範,當中包括於網站推出 一系列教育資源,並積極接觸各區人士。過去一年,競委會出席了 19 個關於樓宇維修及管理的講座,接觸不同地區的業主、物業管理 人員,以及相關政府部門及公營機構,重點宣揚打擊圍標的訊息。 …/3 Annex B

此外,競委會亦推出了一套「不合謀條款」範本,供採購人員加入 其招標文件及採購合約內,以減低他們在採購過程中面對反競爭行 爲的風險。該條款旨在警告競投者不得作出反競爭安排,以及作出 這些安排的後果,一旦出現違反條款的情況,亦可為採購方提供清 晰、直接的合約保障。該範本備有中、英文版本,採購人員可於競 委會網站www.compcomm.hk 下載使用。 (完)

August 26, 2024

Press release

ICAC and Competition Commission conduct second joint operation against corruption and bid-rigging over building maintenance

The ICAC and the Competition Commission conducted a joint operation code- named “Shotgun” for two consecutive days on August 21 and 22, following the two agencies’ first collaborated action in mid-April against a newly-rising syndicate engaging in corruption and bid-rigging. After a four-month in-depth investigation and detailed analysis of evidence collected, the two agencies discovered that the syndicate might have been involved in other suspected corruption and bid-rigging activities and therefore took further enforcement actions.

The ICAC further arrested five persons and interviewed 22 persons during this operation, including project contractors, project consultants, middlemen, members of property management companies, and members of Incorporated Owners (IO).

In the joint operation, search warrants were executed by the ICAC and the Competition Commission to conduct searches at around 20 premises, including the offices of various project contractors, consultancies, as well as residences of the individuals concerned. Various exhibits were seized. The Competition Commission has also exercised its compulsory powers in the operation, requesting relevant companies and individuals to produce documents and information, and to attend before the Competition Commission to provide information relating to the case.

…/4

Annex B

The companies and individuals concerned were alleged to have solicited and accepted bribes and engaged in anti-competitive activities in order to manipulate the tendering exercises of building maintenance projects. They were also alleged to have exaggerated contract sums and assisted associated contractors in securing contracts of the projects. The investigation of ICAC mainly targeted renovation projects of two residential estates in Hong Kong Island, whereby corruption was suspected. The value of the two renovation project contracts was worth about $140 million in total. It is alleged that the backbone members of the syndicate, through a middle man, might have offered advantages to the IO members in order to ensure that the associated project contractors controlled by the syndicate would be awarded the renovation contracts of the two residential estates respectively, thus contravening section 9 of the Prevention of Bribery Ordinance (POBO). The renovation projects concerned have yet to be executed.

Meanwhile, the investigation conducted by the Competition Commission concerned renovation projects of 38 residential estates / buildings, and industrial buildings in Hong Kong Island, Kowloon and the New Territories. The value of the relevant renovation contracts totalled over $1 billion, with individual contracts worth as much as $260 million. Some of the renovation contracts concerned have yet to be awarded and some had been overturned, while works of individual projects had commenced prior to the commencement of the Competition Commission’s investigations.

During the tendering of renovation projects for the 38 aforementioned buildings, the companies and individuals concerned had allegedly manipulated the tender results by exchanging and coordinating bidding prices, either directly or through intermediaries, while some contractors had submitted cover bids. Such conduct would amount to bid-rigging, price-fixing and exchange of competitively sensitive information, contravening the First Conduct Rule of the Competition Ordinance.

As investigation is ongoing, no further comment on the case will be made by the ICAC and the Competition Commission at this stage.

…/5

Annex B

The series of joint operations conducted by the ICAC and the Competition Commission demonstrate the determination of the two agencies in safeguarding a clean and level-playing field for the building maintenance industry, and that no corruption and anti-competitive conduct will be tolerated. The two agencies will continue to maintain close collaboration with other law enforcement agencies and related authorities to crack down on illegal activities and to safeguard the rights of property owners. The ICAC calls on property owners and members of the public that, should they suspect corruption is involved in building maintenance, they should make enquiries or report to the ICAC without delay. The ICAC’s report corruption hotline: 25 266

  1. The Competition Commission calls on anyone who can provide information

on the matter or the relevant practices to contact the Competition Commission as soon as possible by telephone on 3462 2118 or by e-mail at complaints@compcomm.hk. Those who consider that they may have engaged or been involved in cartel conduct should approach the Commission as soon as possible for leniency or co-operation (Leniency Hotline: 3996 8010; e-mail: leniency@compcomm.hk).

The ICAC has all along been taking stringent enforcement action against corruption in the building management sector. The ICAC also actively supports flat owners and building management bodies (BMBs) in enhancing their anti-corruption capability through corruption prevention and education. The ICAC will continue to proactively approach BMBs and adopt an early intervention strategy, as well as to encourage flat owners to stay vigilant against corruption in renovation works through active participation in building management. To address the corruption risks in building maintenance projects, the ICAC has compiled and distributed the “Corruption Prevention 101 – Building Maintenance Tips” leaflet to provide corruption prevention suggestions and relevant information for owners. Members of the public can download the leaflet from the ICAC Corruption Prevention Advisory Service webpage (cpas.icac.hk). In collaboration with different government departments, regulators, professional bodies and trade associations, the ICAC will continue to organise integrity training to enhance practitioners’ professional conduct and resistance to bribery temptations. The ICAC has also produced a wide range of practical education resources which are available in the Integrity and Quality Building Management website (bm.icac.hk). Citizens are also welcome to call the Integrity Building Management Enquiry Hotline at 2929 4555 for ICAC services.

…/6

Annex B

Apart from enforcement actions, the Competition Commission has been actively launching publicity and educational initiatives to raise public awareness of bid- rigging and other anti-competitive conduct, and to assist procurers in strengthening their preventive efforts. In addition to rolling out a series of educational resources on its website, the Commission also spares no effort in engaging with the community. Over the past year, the Competition Commission has attended 19 briefings on building maintenance and management, reaching out to property owners and property managers in various districts, as well as relevant government departments and public bodies, to promote the message of combatting bid-rigging. Separately, the Competition Commission has also published a set of model “Non- collusion Clauses” for procurers to incorporate into their invitation to bid documents and contracts, with a view to reducing their exposure to anti-competitive conduct during procurement exercises. In essence, the “Non-collusion Clauses” serve to warn bidders of the prohibition against, and consequences of, entering into anti- competitive arrangements, as well as to provide a clear and straightforward contractual remedy for procurers in the event that these clauses have been breached. Both Chinese and English versions of the model clauses are available for downloading at www.compcomm.hk. X X X Annex B

INDEPENDENT COMMISSION AGAINST CORRUPTION 廉政 公 署 2026 年1 月2 日 新聞稿 廉署打擊樓宇維修貪污團夥涉兩屋苑拘捕21 人 廉署上星期採取執法行動,打擊一個有黑社會背景人士操縱的樓宇 維修貪污團夥,涉及觀塘區兩個屋苑的大維修工程,先後拘捕共21 名人士,包括該貪污團夥的骨幹成員。 被捕人士為15 名男子及六名女子,年齡介乎30 至81 歲,包括中間 人、工程顧問、工程承辦商及屋苑業主立案法團成員,部分人有黑 社會背景。 廉署人員在行動中搜查多個地點,包括涉案工程顧問及工程承辦商 的辦公室,並檢走多項證物,包括相關的招標文件。 行動涉及觀塘區兩個屋苑的大維修工程。就其中一項工程,涉案工 程承辦商涉嫌透過中間人行賄工程顧問及屋苑法團部分成員,以取 得總值約3,300 萬元的工程合約。另一項工程則仍在籌備階段,涉案 中間人懷疑藉貪污手段收集業主的「委任代表文書」(俗稱授權票), 企圖操控屋苑法團以協助日後取得相關維修工程合約。 廉署採取執法行動後,已主動聯絡兩個屋苑的相關持分者,提醒他 們在跟進涉案工程時需留意的貪污風險。 樓宇維修與廣大市民息息相關,牽涉不同持分者,廉署一直十分關 注相關貪污情況,採取結合專業執法、制度預防及社區教育的「三 管齊下」策略,透過嚴厲執法及適時主動介入,並與相關部門及機 構緊密合作和各司其職,全力打擊樓宇維修工程中可能涉及的貪污 及其他不法行為。此外,廉署為法團及業主提供實務指引,協助他 們規劃及管理樓宇維修項目,並舉辦專業培訓,協助業內各持分者 落實良好管治及有效內部管控制度。廉署又持續透過探訪、講座、 研討會等多元化渠道,向樓宇管理組織、地區治理團隊及業主講解 反貪法例,並鼓勵法團主動提升透明度,加強與業主溝通。 (完) …/2 Annex C

January 2, 2026 Press release

ICAC arrests 21 in crackdown on building maintenance corruption syndicate linked to two housing estates

In a law enforcement operation mounted last week, the ICAC neutralised a building maintenance corruption syndicate controlled by individuals with triad background. A total of 21 people linked to two grand renovation projects in Kwun Tong district, including backbone members of the corruption syndicate, were arrested.

The arrestees, comprising 15 men and six women aged between 30 and 81, included middlemen, project consultants, project contractors and members of incorporated owners (IO). Some of the arrestees have triad background.

During the operation, ICAC officers searched multiple locations, including offices of the project consultants and project contractors, and seized various exhibits, including relevant tender documents.

The operation targeted the grand renovation projects at two housing estates in Kwun Tong District. In one of the projects, the project contractor had allegedly bribed the project consultant and some IO members through middlemen to secure works contract worth a total sum of about $33 million. In another project, which was at the preparatory stage, middlemen had allegedly collected instruments of proxy from flat owners by corrupt means in an attempt to manipulate the IO of the estate, so that the relevant renovation works contracts could be secured in future.

Following the enforcement action, the ICAC had proactively contacted relevant stakeholders of the two housing estates, reminding them to stay vigilant to corruption risks when handling the projects concerned.

Building maintenance is closely related to the public and involves multiple stakeholders. The ICAC has always attached great importance to corruption in building maintenance, adopting a three-pronged strategy of law enforcement, systemic prevention and community education in tackling these cases. In combating corruption and other illegal acts in building maintenance works, the ICAC has carried out vigorous law enforcement, made timely and proactive interventions, and worked closely with other departments and organisations in accordance with a clear division of labour. In addition, the ICAC has offered step‑by‑step guidance for IOs and property owners on planning and managing building maintenance projects. …/3 Annex C

Professional training courses have also been organised to help different stakeholders in the sector implement good governance and robust internal control systems. The ICAC has also all along engaged with building management bodies, district governance teams and flat owners through various channels, including visits, talks and seminars, to explain to them the anti-corruption laws, and to encourage IOs to adopt proactive measures to enhance transparency and strengthen communication with flat owners. X X X Annex C

INDEPENDENT COMMISSION AGAINST CORRUPTION 廉 政 公 署 2026 年2 月13 日 新聞稿 廉署拘捕22 人涉七個屋苑及大廈樓宇大維修貪污阻截批出逾一 億元合約 廉政公署本星期初(2月9日及10日)採取代號為「獅子山」的執法 行動,打擊樓宇大維修工程涉嫌貪污及相關違法行為,涉及全港 多區七個屋苑及大廈,拘捕共22名人士。 被捕人士分別為17名男子及五名女子,年齡介乎36至78歲,包括 四間工程顧問公司及三間工程承辦商的董事及職員,以及部分 屋苑及大廈的業主立案法團(法團)主席。 廉署人員在行動中根據法庭手令搜查多個地點,包括涉案工程 顧問公司及工程承辦商的辦公室,並檢走多項證物,包括相關大 維修工程的招標和工程文件,以及銀行和會計紀錄。 行動涉及三個屋苑、三座單幢住宅大廈及一座工業大廈的大維 修工程,分布於全港多個地區,分別為荃灣、深水埗、大角咀、 新蒲崗、觀塘、上環及筲箕灣,工程合約金額介乎200萬元至逾 一億元,總值逾二億元。其中兩項總值逾一億元的工程仍在籌備 階段,廉署執法行動成功阻截批出工程合約。 廉署早前接獲貪污投訴,指有工程承辦商涉嫌藉貪污手段,行賄 工程顧問公司及法團成員以取得屋苑及大廈的大維修工程合約。 廉署調查發現,有工程顧問公司及工程承辦商的帳目懷疑造假 以掩飾不尋常收入及支出。調查又發現其中一名法團主席涉嫌 應入標工程顧問公司要求,洩露機密招標面試題目,協助對方成 功獲聘為相關工程的顧問。 相關貪污調查仍在進行,廉署不排除再有進一步執法行動。 廉署採取執法行動後,已主動聯絡有關屋苑及大廈的相關持分 者,提醒他們在跟進涉案工程時需留意的貪污風險。 Annex D

2 - 廉署一直密切關注涉及樓宇管理及維修的貪污情況,採取結合 執法、預防及教育的「三管齊下」的全方位策略,並會繼續與相 關政府部門及機構緊密合作,全力打擊樓宇維修工程中可能涉 及的貪污及其他不法行為。 廉署提醒公眾及相關業內人士,如懷疑任何與樓宇維修相關的 貪污行為,應立即向廉署舉報。廉署24小時舉報貪污熱線 : 25 266 366。 (完) February 13, 2026 Press release Twenty-two arrested by ICAC for suspected corruption in seven grand renovation projects preventing award of contracts worth over $100 million The ICAC mounted a law enforcement operation codenamed “Lion Rock” this week (February 9 and 10) to combat suspected corruption and other related illicit activities involving the grand renovation projects of seven housing estates and buildings across the territory, arresting a total of 22 individuals. The arrestees, aged between 36 and 78, are 17 men and five women, including the directors and staff members of four project consultancy firms and three project contractors, as well as some of the chairpersons of incorporated owners (IO) of the estates and buildings concerned. During the operation, search warrants were executed by ICAC officers to conduct searches at multiple locations, including offices of the project consultancy firms and project contractors. Various exhibits were also seized, including the relevant tender and works documents, as well as banking and accounting records. The operation involved the grand renovation projects at three housing estates, three residential buildings and an industrial building across the territory in Tsuen Wan, Sham Shui Po, Tai Kok Tsui, San Po Kong, Kwun Tong, Sheung Wan and Shau Kei Wan. The individual contract sum ranged from $2 million to over $100 million, while the total contract sum amounts to over $200 million. Two of the projects, worth totalling over $100 million, were still at the preparatory stage. The ICAC’s operation prevented the award of the two contracts concerned. Annex D

3 - The ICAC investigation arose from a corruption complaint alleging that certain project contractors might have offered bribes to project consultancy firms and IO members for securing the grand renovation projects of the housing estates and buildings by corrupt means. The ICAC investigation revealed that the project consultancy firms and the project contractors had fabricated their accounting records to cover up dubious incomes and expenses. The investigation also revealed that one of the IO chairpersons had allegedly divulged confidential tender interview questions upon the request of a project consultancy firm to assist the latter in securing a consultancy contract. As the relevant corruption investigation is continuing, the ICAC does not rule out further law enforcement actions. Following the enforcement action, the ICAC had proactively contacted relevant stakeholders of the housing estates and buildings concerned, reminding them to stay vigilant to corruption risks when handling the projects. The ICAC has always attached great importance to corruption in building management and maintenance, adopting a three-pronged strategy of law enforcement, systemic prevention and community education in tackling these cases. The ICAC will continue to work closely with other government departments and organisations in combating corruption and other illicit activities in building maintenance works. The ICAC urges members of the public and relevant industry practitioners that if they suspect corruption in building maintenance, they should report to the ICAC immediately through its 24-hour hotline (25 266 366). X X X Annex D

INDEPENDENT COMMISSION AGAINST CORRUPTION 廉 政 公 署 2026 年3 月30 日 新聞稿 廉署與警方採取聯合行動打擊黑社會滲透樓宇維修貪污拘42 人 廉政公署自去年中起陸續接獲市民貪污投訴,劍指一間工程顧 問公司涉嫌透過貪污賄賂,於不同屋苑協助工程承辦商取得樓 宇維修工程合約。 廉署進行詳細情報分析及深入調查後,發現該工程顧問公司涉 嫌先以不合理低價進場,獲取不同屋苑的樓宇維修工程顧問合 約,其後懷疑透過與其有關聯的黑社會人士充當中間人,以貪污 手段意圖操控工程招標程序,協助承辦商在個別屋苑獲取大額 工程合約。 有見及此,廉署及警方策劃部署聯合行動,上星期一連兩日(3月 26日及27日)採取代號為「劍鞘」的執法行動,聯手打擊黑社會 以貪污不法手段滲透樓宇維修工程,並掃蕩由相關黑社會操控 的非法場所。 廉署調查發現,涉案工程顧問公司涉嫌於2025年中獲得新界區 一個租者置其屋計劃屋邨的大維修工程顧問合約。該工程合約 估算逾1.6億元,而工程顧問公司以遠低於合理水平的價格(即合 約金額0.5%),取得該工程的顧問合約。廉署懷疑工程顧問公司 其後透過黑社會成員,暗中聯繫有意投標的工程承辦商,以行賄 受賄方式,意圖操控工程招標程序。由於相關招標工作仍在籌備, 廉署相信是次執法行動已及早阻止有關貪污勾當,成功堵截黑 社會染指該屋苑的大維修工程。(圖1) 另外,該工程顧問公司於2022年獲得港島區一座單幢住宅大廈 的大維修工程的顧問合約。一間工程承辦商後來以2,000萬元獲 取該項大維修工程。廉署調查發現,該工程承辦商有多筆總額達 數百萬元的不尋常支出。該工程顧問公司的註冊檢驗人員則涉 嫌沒有履行檢驗職責而簽署建築物檢驗報告。由於該工程已經 展開,基於安全考慮,廉署已將事件轉介屋宇署跟進檢視。(圖 2) Annex E

2 - 該工程顧問公司又涉嫌與九龍區一座單幢住宅大廈的物業管理 公司董事,從一名工程公司東主收賄,於2026年初游說各業主以 高於市價約一倍價格,即約140萬元,將消防安全改善工程合約 判授予該工程公司。由於合約尚未批出,廉署相信行動已阻截相 關不法勾當。(圖3) 廉署在行動中拘捕10名男子,年齡介乎28歲至61歲,包括該間工 程顧問公司的東主及註冊檢驗人員、多名有黑社會背景的中間 人、兩間工程承辦商的東主及一間物業管理公司的董事。 廉署人員又根據法庭手令搜查22個地點,包括涉案工程顧問公 司及工程承辦商的辦公室,以及涉案人士的住所等,並檢走大量 證物,包括與樓宇維修工程相關文件,以及銀行和會計紀錄等。 廉署連日檢視有關文件,初步發現涉案公司懷疑有不少帳目造 假的情況,用以掩飾不尋常收入及支出。 在廉署進行拘捕後,警方隨即迅速搜查新界區多個相信由上述 有黑社會背景人士操控的不法場所,並成功搗破兩個非法麻雀 檔及一個百家樂賭檔,並拘捕32人,分別為14男18女,年齡介乎 30歲至75歲,罪名包括「營辦賭博場所」及「在賭場以外任何場 所進行賭博」。 「劍鞘」行動後,廉署已主動聯絡涉案屋苑及大廈的相關持分者, 提醒他們在跟進涉案工程時需留意的貪污風險。 廉署發言人表示:「廉署一直密切關注樓宇管理及維修的貪污情 況,並會繼續與警方及其他政府部門和監管機構保持緊密合作, 因應合適個案及早介入,全力打擊及堵截樓宇維修工程中潛在 及可能涉及的貪污及其他不法行為。『劍鞘』行動中兩項總值逾 1.6億元的工程尚未批出。相關貪污調查仍在進行,廉署不排除 再有進一步執法行動。」 警方發言人表示:「警方高度重視有不法份子涉嫌利用非法手段 干預樓宇維修工程,並會嚴正追究任何違法行為。警方重申,打 擊三合會活動為警方首要行動項目之一,警方絕不容許任何非 法、暴力或三合會的活動在社會上發生,並會聯同廉署和其他相 關執法部門繼續大力打擊相關的犯罪行為及其收入來源。」 Annex E

3 - 廉署呼籲公眾以及樓宇管理及維修相關業內人士,如懷疑任何 貪污行為,應立即向廉署舉報。廉署24小時舉報貪污熱線:25 266 366。警方亦呼籲市民尤其是業主,應該積極參與樓宇管理 事務並向執法部門主動舉報任何違法行為。 (完) March 30, 2026 Press release ICAC and Police joint operation against corrupt triad infiltration in building maintenance, arrest 42 The Independent Commission Against Corruption (ICAC) has received corruption complaints from the public since mid-2025, alleging that a project consultancy firm had assisted construction contractors to secure building maintenance contracts in various residential estates through bribery. Detailed intelligence analyses and intensive investigations by the ICAC revealed that the project consultancy firm, which had allegedly secured consultancy contracts of various building maintenance projects at unreasonably low fees, had engaged triad members linked to the firm as middlemen to manipulate the tendering process of the projects through corrupt means, aiming to assist contractors in securing a high-priced contract in a residential estate. In view of the findings, the ICAC and the Police mounted a joint operation codenamed “Scabbard” for two consecutive days on March 26 and 27, joining hands to crack down on triad infiltration in building maintenance projects through corrupt means, raiding premises controlled by relevant triads for illicit activities. The ICAC investigation revealed that the project consultancy firm secured the consultancy contract of the grand renovation project of a housing estate under the Tenants Purchase Scheme in the New Territories in mid-2025. The project sum was estimated to be over $160 million and the consultancy firm secured the consultancy contract at a price far below a reasonable level (i.e. 0.5% of the contract sum). It is suspected that the project consultancy firm would subsequently contact potential bidders through triad members, and by means of bribery, manipulate the tendering process. While the relevant tendering exercise is still at preparatory stage, the ICAC’s early intervention is believed to have prevented the corrupt dealings from taking place and intercepted triad infiltration in the grand renovation project of the Annex E

4 - housing estate. (Diagram 1) In addition, the project consultancy firm secured the consultancy contract for the grand renovation project of a residential building on Hong Kong Island in 2022. The project was subsequently awarded at $20 million to a project contractor, which had various dubious expenditures totalling several million dollars. Investigation by the ICAC also found that a registered inspector of the project consultancy firm was suspected of failing to fulfil his inspection duties and signed on Building Inspection Reports without conducting any inspection. As the project has already commenced, the ICAC has referred the incident to the Buildings Department for further inspection due to safety concerns. (Diagram 2) The project consultancy firm, together with a director of the property management company of a residential building in Kowloon, is also suspected of accepting bribes from a project contractor for lobbying its flat owners to award the contract of a fire safety improvement project to the contractor at approximately twice the market price, i.e. $1.4 million, in early 2026. The contract is yet to be awarded and the enforcement action of the ICAC is believed to have thwarted the illicit dealings. (Diagram 3) In the operation, the ICAC arrested 10 men aged between 28 and 61, including the proprietor and a registered inspector of a project consultancy firm concerned, several middlemen with triad background, the proprietors of two project contractors and a property management company director. ICAC officers also executed search warrants to conduct searches at 22 locations, including offices of the project consultancy firm and project contractors, as well as residences of the arrestees. Voluminous exhibits were also seized, including documents relating to the building maintenance projects, as well as banking and accounting records. Reviewing those documents, initial findings by the ICAC suggested that the companies involved in the present case might have fabricated accounting records to cover up dubious incomes and expenses. Following the ICAC’s enforcement actions, the Police swiftly launched raids at multiple locations in the New Territories believed to be controlled by the abovementioned individuals with triad background, shutting down two unlawful Mahjong dens and an illegal baccarat gambling den. A total of 32 individuals, comprising 14 men and 18 women, aged between 30 and 75, were arrested by the Police for offences including “operating gambling establishments” and “gambling in any place not being a gambling establishment”. Annex E

5 - Following the Operation “Scabbard”, the ICAC had proactively contacted relevant stakeholders of the housing estate and buildings concerned, reminding them to stay vigilant to corruption risks when handling the projects. An ICAC spokesperson said, “The ICAC has been paying close attention to corruption in building management and maintenance. The Commission will continue to work closely with the Police as well as other government departments and regulatory bodies to combat potential and suspected corruption and other illicit activities in building maintenance projects by intervention at an early stage in cases deemed appropriate. Works contracts of two projects worth totalling over $160 million revealed in Operation ‘Scabbard’ are yet to be awarded. The relevant corruption investigation is ongoing, and the ICAC does not rule out further enforcement actions.” “The Police is highly concerned about suspected illegal interference in building maintenance and management projects by criminals. Any illegal activities will be pursued resolutely. The Police reiterates that combating triad activities is one of the Force’s top operational priorities. The Police does not tolerate any unlawful, violent, or triad-related activities in society, and will continue to co-operate with the ICAC and other law enforcement agencies to combat related crimes and cut the source of income of criminals,” a Police spokesperson noted. The ICAC urges members of the public and practitioners of the building management and maintenance industry to report suspected corruption to the ICAC immediately through its 24-hour hotline (25 266 366). The Police also calls on citizens, particularly property owners, to proactively participate in building management affairs and report any illegalities to law enforcement agencies. X X X Annex E

6 - 圖1 圖2 Annex E

7 - 圖3 Diagram 1 Annex E

8 - Diagram 2 Diagram 3 Annex E

INDEPENDENT COMMISSION AGAINST CORRUPTION 廉 政 公 署 2026 年5 月5 日 新聞稿 廉署拘七人圖奪樓宇大維修工程 法團主席疑涉貪包庇承辦商 工程顧問隱瞞雙重身分 廉署上星期(4月27日及28日)採取執法行動,打擊一個專門針對 單幢樓宇大維修工程的貪污集團,拘捕五男兩女,年齡介乎37歲 至75歲,當中包括業主立案法團主席、工程承辦商東主,以及工 程顧問公司的董事和聘用的註冊檢驗人員。 廉署早前接獲市民舉報,懷疑位於旺角一座商住大廈的大維修 工程招標過程可能涉及貪污。廉署調查揭發被捕承辦商東主,涉 嫌透過親友暗中持有涉案工程顧問公司,用低價取得工程顧問 合約,並在招標過程中隱瞞承辦商及工程顧問的雙重身分和利 益衝突,意圖誘使法團揀選其工程承辦商進行大維修。 廉署調查發現,該工程顧問公司並沒有按法團要求,申報與該工 程承辦商的利益衝突,而業主立案法團主席懷疑縱容包庇,可能 涉及貪污。因有業主對招標過程存疑,涉案承辦商最終未能獲取 該項價值約2,000萬元的工程合約。 廉署調查又發現被捕註冊檢驗人員正職從事金融業,懷疑她在 有關工程並沒有根據建築物條例履行檢驗職責而簽署建築物檢 驗報告。廉署已同步將相關建築物檢驗資料轉介屋宇署跟進。 廉署人員在行動中搜查多個地點,包括涉案工程顧問公司及工 程承辦商的辦公室,以及被捕人士的住所,並檢走相關樓宇維修 工程文件和會計紀錄。 廉署在行動中發現涉案工程顧問公司及承辦商亦試圖透過隱瞞 關係和利益衝突,以取得另外兩個位於大坑及深水埗的樓宇大 維修項目,有關工程正進行招標,合約價值共約600萬元。廉署 行動成功堵截有關非法行為,過程中亦已提醒相關業主代表在 判授合約時要留意的貪污風險。 Annex F

2 - 相關貪污調查仍在進行中,廉署不排除再有進一步執法行動。 廉署呼籲公眾以及從事樓宇維修及管理業人士,如有任何貪污 懷疑,應立即向廉署舉報。廉署24小時舉報貪污熱線:25 266 366。 (完) May 5, 2026 Press release Seven arrested by ICAC for alleged bribery for conniving at concealment of contractor’s dual role as consultant in grand maintenance projects Last week (April 27 and 28), the ICAC conducted an enforcement action against a corruption syndicate specifically targeting grand maintenance projects of single- block buildings, arresting five men and two women, aged between 37 and 75, including the chairman of an Incorporated Owners (IO), the proprietor of a project contractor, and directors of a project consultancy firm and a registered inspector employed by the firm. The ICAC received a public complaint alleging possible corruption in the tender exercise for the grand maintenance project of a single-block composite building in Mong Kok. Investigations revealed that the arrested project contractor’s proprietor allegedly controlled the project consultancy firm through his associates, secured the consultancy contract for the grand maintenance project at a low price, and concealed his dual roles as project contractor and consultant, along with his conflicting interests during the tendering process, with intent to induce the IO to select his company as the project contractor. ICAC enquiries found that the project consultancy firm concerned did not declare its conflicting interests with the project contractor as required by the IO, while the IO chairman was suspected of bribery for conniving at the concealment. As property owners surmised irregularities in the tender exercise, the project contractor eventually failed to secure the $20 million works contract. It was also revealed in the ICAC investigation that the arrested registered inspector, who maintained a full-time job in the finance industry, might not have discharged her inspection duties in accordance with the Buildings Ordinance when signing Building Inspection Reports. The ICAC has referred the relevant inspection information in parallel to the Buildings Department for follow-up action. Annex F

3 - ICAC officers conducted searches at multiple locations, including the offices of the project consultancy firm and the project contractor, as well as residences of the arrestees, seizing relevant documents related to the grand maintenance projects and accounting records. It was revealed in the ICAC operation that the project consultancy firm and project contractor also concealed their relationship and conflicting interests in two other grand maintenance projects currently undergoing tender exercises – one in Tai Hang and another in Sham Shui Po – to secure contracts with a total contract sum of about $6 million. The ICAC successfully intercepted these illicit activities and reminded property owners of potential corruption risks during contract awards. As the relevant corruption investigation is ongoing, the ICAC does not rule out further enforcement actions. The ICAC urges members of the public and practitioners in the building management and maintenance industry to report suspected corruption to the ICAC immediately through its 24-hour hotline at 25 266 366. X X X Annex F

4 - Annex F

INDEPENDENT COMMISSION AGAINST CORRUPTION 廉 政 公 署 2026 年3 月25 日 新聞稿 廉署持續打擊樓宇大維修工程貪污起訴五人涉三個屋苑 廉政公署持續打擊樓宇大維修工程貪污,星期一(3月23日)分三 宗案件落案起訴五名人士,控告他們涉嫌就三個屋苑的大維修 工程,行賄有關屋苑的業主立案法團(法團)成員及業主代表。三 個涉案屋苑的工程總值約9,000萬元。案件今早(3月25日)在東區 裁判法院提訊。 廉署一直密切關注涉及樓宇管理及維修的貪污情況,採取結合 執法、預防及教育的「三管齊下」的全方位策略,並持續與相關 政府部門及機構緊密合作,全力打擊樓宇維修工程中可能出現 的貪污及其他不法行為。 廉署早前與競爭事務委員會採取代號為「獵槍」的聯合行動,成 功搗破一個涉嫌透過貪污和圍標手段,以操控樓宇維修工程招 標程序的犯罪集團。經深入調查及徵詢法律意見後,廉署落案起 訴四男一女。 五名被告為張烱權、周淑霞及三名中間人黃湘豫、鄭國歡及江寶 材,年齡介乎42歲至70歲,共被控八項罪名,即七項向代理人提 供利益罪名,違反《防止賄賂條例》第9(2)(a)條,以及一項串謀 向代理人提供利益,違反《防止賄賂條例》第9(2)(a)條及《刑事 罪行條例》第159A條。 涉案三個屋苑分別為柴灣茵翠苑、堅尼地城海都樓及葵涌怡勝 花園,它們案發時正展開大維修工程。 首宗案件控罪指張烱權及茵翠苑時任法團秘書周淑霞涉嫌於 2022年9月至2023年2月期間,串謀向屋苑一名時任法團成員提 供一筆金額不詳的賄款,以協助與張烱權有聯繫的承辦商取得 該屋苑的大維修工程合約。該法團成員拒絕受賄,亦沒有協助相 關承辦商取得工程合約。案發時,茵翠苑業主大會通過以約3,900 萬元將相關大維修工程合約判給志富建築(集團)有限公司,但其 Annex G

2 - 後在另一業主大會推翻有關決定。周淑霞當時正為張烱權的一 間公司工作,而她出任茵翠苑法團秘書時,並非屋苑的業主或居 民。 另一宗案件涉及海都樓的大維修工程,最初居民通過決議,將有 關工程以約3,100萬元判給祥利建築公司(祥利),但部分海都樓 業主其後入稟土地審裁處,要求推翻該決議。相關三項控罪指鄭 國歡及江寶材涉嫌於2022年10月至2024年2月期間,先後向一名 海都樓業主代表提供一封未有指明金額的利是及兩筆分別為數 萬元及50萬元的賄款,以協助游說其他業主停止反對祥利獲批 該工程合約,及協助該宗土地審裁處案件達致庭外和解。該名業 主代表拒絕受賄,亦沒有向二人提供協助。向土地審裁處入稟要 求推翻決議的居民最終獲勝訴。 第三宗案件四項控罪指黃湘豫涉嫌於2020年7月至2024年4月期 間,先後四次向怡勝花園一名時任法團成員提供未有指明金額 的賭場籌碼及價值約50,000元的裝修服務,以協助黃湘豫推薦的 工程顧問及承辦商取得怡勝花園大維修顧問及工程合約。該法 團成員並沒有接受黃湘豫提供的利益,亦沒有協助相關工程顧 問或承辦商取得合約。怡勝花園大維修工程的工程顧問合約,最 終由鴻毅建築師有限公司獲得,而有關工程合約則由俊豪建築 工程有限公司取得,合約金額逾2,100萬元。 相關貪污調查仍在進行,廉署不排除會有更多人士被檢控。 廉署提醒公眾及樓宇管理及維修相關業內人士,如懷疑任何貪 污行為,應立即向廉署舉報。廉署24小時舉報貪污熱線:25 266 366。 (完) March 25, 2026 Press release Five linked to three housing estates charged in ICAC’s ongoing crackdown on corruption in grand renovation projects The ICAC, in its ongoing effort to crack down on corruption in grand renovation projects, charged five individuals in three cases on Monday (March 23) for allegedly Annex G

3 - offering bribes to members of incorporated owners (IO) and a representative of flat owners in relation to the grand renovation projects of three housing estates with project sums totalling about $90 million. The cases are set for mention at the Eastern Magistrates’ Courts this morning (March 25). Paying close attention to corruption in building management and maintenance, the ICAC adopts a three-pronged strategy of law enforcement, systemic prevention and community education, and works closely with other government departments and organisations in combating corruption and other illicit activities in building maintenance works. The ICAC had earlier mounted a joint operation codenamed “Shotgun” with the Competition Commission, resulting in the successful crackdown on a crime syndicate allegedly engaged in manipulating the tendering exercises of building maintenance projects through bribery and bid-rigging. After conducting intensive investigations and seeking legal advice, the ICAC yesterday charged four men and one woman. The five defendants, aged between 42 and 70, are Cheung Kwing-kuen and Chow Shuk-ha, and three middlemen, namely Wong Sheung-yu, Cheng Kwok-foon and Kong Po-choy. They face a total of eight charges – seven of offering an advantage to an agent, contrary to section 9(2)(a) of the Prevention of Bribery Ordinance (POBO), and one of conspiracy to offer an advantage to an agent, contrary to section 9(2)(a) of the POBO and section 159A of the Crimes Ordinance. The three housing estates in the present cases, Yan Tsui Court in Chai Wan, Hoi Tao Building in Kennedy Town and Victory Garden in Kwai Chung, were undergoing grand renovation projects at the material times. In the first case, the charge alleges that between September 2022 and February 2023, Cheung and Chow, then member secretary of the IO of Yan Tsui Court, conspired together to offer an unspecified sum of money to a then IO member to assist contractors associated with Cheung in securing the grand renovation contract of Yan Tsui Court. The IO member rejected bribes and did not assist the contractors to secure the works contract. At an owners’ meeting, Yan Tsui Court’s grand renovation contract was awarded to Chi Fu Construction (Group) Limited at $39 million by resolution. The resolution was subsequently overturned at another owners’ meeting. At the material time, Chow worked for a company of Cheung. When Cheung assumed the position of the IO’s secretary, she was neither a flat owner nor a resident of Yan Tsui Court. Annex G

4 - Another case concerns the grand renovation project of Hoi Tao Building. The works contract was originally awarded to a contractor, Cheung Lee Construction Co (Cheung Lee), at $3.1 million by resolution of flat owners. Some flat owners subsequently filed a case with the Lands Tribunal, requesting the overturning of the resolution. The three charges allege that between October 2022 and February 2024, Cheng and Kong, allegedly offered a red packet of an unspecified amount and two bribes of several tens of thousands of dollars and $500,000 respectively, to a representative of flat owners to assist in persuading other flat owners to stop opposing the award of the works contract to Cheung Lee, and to assist in reaching a settlement of the Lands Tribunal case. The representative did not accept the bribes and did not offer any assistance to the duo. The Lands Tribunal eventually ruled in favour of the flat owners who filed the case. In the third case, the four charges allege that on four occasions between July 2020 and April 2024, Wong offered an unspecified amount of casino chips and renovation services worth $50,000 to a then member of the IO of Victory Garden to assist the project consultants and contractors recommended by Wong in securing the consultant and works contracts of the grand renovation project of housing estate. The IO member did not accept the advantages offered by Wong and did not assist the project consultants or contractors in obtaining any contracts. The consultancy contract for the grand renovation project of Victory Garden was eventually awarded to Will Power Architects Company Limited while the relevant works contract worth over $21 million was awarded to Smart Goal Construction Engineering Limited. As the relevant corruption investigation is continuing, further prosecutions will not be ruled out. The ICAC urges members of the public and practitioners of the building management and maintenance industry to report suspected corruption to the ICAC immediately through its 24-hour hotline (25 266 366). X X X Annex G

FD06237 | 2025_港澳台_香港宏福苑大火_Opening-Address-(Chi)-Committee-Counsel_20260319.pdf

分类:06_境外及港澳台调查报告 | 年份:2025 | 地域:香港 | 严重程度: | 场所: | 起火原因:焊接/动火 | 来源格式:pdf

就大埔宏福苑火災成立的獨立委員會 獨立委員會代表大律師書面開場陳詞 A. 引言 1. 2025 年11 月26 日發生的宏福苑火災是香港歷史上最嚴重的 慘劇之一,亦是本港自1948 年以來死傷最慘重的火災。大火 持續焚燒超過43 小時,吞噬7 幢住宅樓宇,導致168 人不幸 罹難及4 000 多名居民流離失所。事發數月以來,全港各界 無不為死難者哀悼。 2. 這場慘劇在我們的集體回憶中留下永難磨滅的傷痕。我們謹 代表整個法律團隊,向每個受影響的家庭致以最深切的慰問。 3. 如此嚴重的災難竟在香港發生,實在令人費解。我們必須以 這場火災為鑑,仔細審視大型維修工程在施工和監督方面存 在的漏洞與不足。 4. 為此,行政長官於2025 年12 月2 日宣布就大埔宏福苑火災 成立獨立委員會(委員會)。 5. 委員會的職權範圍涵蓋四個範疇,分四段逐一說明。總括而 言,職權範圍第一段關乎釐清2025 年11 月26 日在宏福苑發 生何事、釀成慘劇的原因,以及導致重大人命傷亡的因素。 第二段旨在審視樓宇保養及維修業界是否存在涉及面更廣的 系統性問題。第三段和第四段集中檢視現行規管和懲罰是否 足夠,並提出改善建議。 6. 委員會的工作旨在釐清事實和責任承擔,特別是向遇難者遺 屬和倖存者作出交代。 7. 重大傷亡事故發生後,通常都會引發連串法律程序。刑事調 查一直與委員會的工作同步進行。如須提出檢控,最終罪成 與否將由刑事法庭裁定。確立民事或刑事責任不屬委員會的 工作。因此,委員會的職權範圍並不包括有關法律責任的事 宜。

委員會將在符合上述限制的情況下,以全面、公平且具透明 度的方式審視職權範圍內的事宜。

批評性的結論。對於須予批評之處,委員會將直言不諱。為 求公平,我們須讓任何可能受影響的一方有機會發表意見。 為此,委員會准許以下相關各方參與聽證會: 9.1. 政府部門1:由律政司委聘孫靖乾資深大律師、卓元暢 大律師、陸栩然大律師和劉逸冲大律師作為代表。 9.2. 競爭事務委員會(競委會)和廉政公署(廉署)。 9.3. 市區重建局(市建局):由高露雲律師行委聘呂世杰資深 大律師和阮文躍大律師作為代表。 9.4. 置邦興業有限公司(置邦),即宏福苑的物業管理公司: 由霍金路偉律師行委聘許偉強資深大律師、何卓衡大 律師和楊志聰大律師作為代表。 9.5 宏福苑維修工程顧問鴻毅建築師有限公司(鴻毅)的董 事2:由韓潤燊律師樓委聘劉日成大律師作為代表。 9.6 宏福苑維修工程主要承辦商宏業建築工程有限公司(宏 業)的董事及授權簽署人3:由劉豹律師行代表。 9.7 宏福苑註冊消防裝置承辦商之一宏泰消防工程有限公 司(宏泰消防):由文禮律師行代表。 9.8 宏福苑業主立案法團(法團)第十二屆管理委員會委員4: 由謝延豐律師行委聘李律仁資深大律師和柯愷欣大律 師作為代表。 9.9 宏福苑法團管理人合安管理有限公司。 1 具體而言,涉事部門是消防處、警務處、勞工處、民政事務總署、房屋署和屋宇署。 2 韓潤燊律師樓代表黃俠然先生。 3 劉豹律師行代表侯華健先生、何建業先生和黃忠基先生。 4 委員是徐滿柑先生、麥志雄先生、何仲行先生、張梓雲女士、林慧敏女士、蘇倩婷女士、馮靜欣女 士、謝寶森先生、陳文浩先生、麥致誠先生、李日興先生、鄧嘉恩女士和羅詠麟先生。

  1. 10 宏福苑部分居民:何謝韋律師事務所代表6 名居民5,

另外2 名居民並無律師代表6。 B. 委員會至今的工作

  1. 委員會自2025 年12 月12 日成立以來與其法律團隊進行了

大量工作: 10.1 2025 年12 月23 日,委員會及其法律團隊到宏福苑實 地視察。 10.2 2026 年1 月26 日,委員會公布,邀請市民就起火和火 勢迅速蔓延的成因和情由及相關事宜提供資料。 10.3 2026 年2 月5 日,委員會舉行指示會議,並於同日發 布《程序規則》。 10.4 2026 年2 月13 日,委員會委任Asif Usmani 教授和江 黎明教授擔任獨立專家,協助委員會的工作。 10.5 過去數月,委員會多次要求政府部門、承建商和顧問公 司提交資料,各方已按要求提供大量證據。

  1. 委員會自2025 年12 月以來審閱了大量證據,所涉數據量及

範圍極廣。 11.1 委員會從政府部門、執法機關、承建商和公眾收到近百 萬份獨立文件(包括大量照片和影片),以數據量計算超 過1TB。 11.2 委員會取得執法機關檢取的資料,包括火災當日多個 小時的閉路電視影片、從宏福苑管理處檢取的資料,以 及承建商之間具證據價值的即時訊息。

5 由何謝韋律師事務所代表的居民是江祥發先生、羅曉琪女士、羅曉健先生、葉家駒先生、葉信霆先 生和李國鴻先生。 6 無律師代表的居民是梁浩軒先生和周炎玲女士。

  1. 3 政府亦已公開內部記錄,披露有關工程的監督工作,以

及接獲宏福苑居民就維修工程提出的眾多投訴後曾採 取的跟進行動。 11.4 委員會收到宏福苑居民、保安人員、建築工人、警務人 員和消防員合共數百份供詞,並收集到超過350 份公 眾意見表格。政府部門和承建商亦已提交正式的證人 陳述書。

  1. 委員會及其法律團隊在過去數月竭盡心力,檢視了大量證據。

委員會已要求可能與調查有關的各方提供證據,並在有需要 時進一步索取資料,以作核實、釐清和補充。

  1. 這些工作目前仍然持續。委員會將邀請公眾就樓宇保養及維

修業界的涉貪圍標、不當合謀串連和其他系統性問題提供資 料。即使聽證會舉行期間,委員會仍可能提出進一步收集資 料的要求。 C. 聽證會

  1. 聽證會於2026 年3 月19 日展開。在首數天,委員會代表大

律師會展示證據,協助委員會和公眾了解所調查的事宜。

  1. 開場陳詞結束後,委員會將聆聽居民、遇難者遺屬、消防員、

警務人員、承建商、分包商、物業管理人員,以及相關政府 部門和機構人員的供詞。預計會有超過50 名證人到場作證。

  1. 委員會也會聽取政府專家和委員會專家所提出的意見證詞,

從而剖析起火成因,以及火勢迅速蔓延導致人命傷亡和財產 損毀的原因。

  1. 以下陳詞旨在簡介聽證會上將會探討的主要事宜,當中的內

容不應被視為委員會對任何爭議事項的意見。 D. 大火及火勢迅速蔓延

  1. 2025 年11 月26 日,內部油漆及維修工程大致完成,而

全部8 座樓宇的外牆磁磚更換工程正在進行。事發當日 天氣相對乾燥,吹微風,紅色火災危險警告信號已經發 出。

台首先起火。閉路電視的片段和市民拍攝的影片一致顯 示,該處正是起火源頭。

14:42 至14:45 之間由工人首先發現。第一通報案電話約 於14:50 撥打至999。

滅的香煙在宏昌閣104 及105 單位外平台引燃了附近的 可燃物。在得出任何最終結論前,委員會需要一併考慮調 查專組的最終報告,以及政府專家和委員會獨立專家提 供的證據。

因可能是有人吸煙。 22.1. 在火頭位置挖出的瓦礫中有燒焦的紙箱和其他垃 圾的殘留物,亦有煙蒂。 22.2. 火警發生前不久在現場錄下的音頻中,可聽見一名 工人說「邊個食煙… 呀?」。 22.3. 閉路電視證明火災當天有工人曾經吸煙,而事發前 居民亦多次投訴棚架上有人吸煙。

場大火為何演變至如此嚴重的災難。

  1. 1. 到了14:56,大火沿宏昌閣天井迅速攀升。
  2. 2. 過了不久,大火蔓延至宏昌閣其餘各面外牆。
  3. 3. 只消數分鐘,火勢波及宏泰閣,再擴及宏盛閣、宏

建閣、宏新閣、宏道閣和宏仁閣。 24.4 約至16:04,8 幢樓宇中已有7 幢起火。 24.5. 多幢樓宇的大火由外牆燒進單位內,通宵焚燒直至 翌日。滅火行動最終要到2025 年11 月28 日上午 10:18 才告結束。大火持續焚燒超過43 個小時。

  1. 宏昌閣和宏泰閣的內部情況極速惡化。有證據顯示,宏昌

閣的走廊和梯間約至 14:55 已滿布濃煙,宏泰閣則在 15:14 過後不久出現同樣情況,某些樓層的環境在數分鐘 內變得非常惡劣。

  1. 委員會將從閉路電視片段、居民、消防員和專家獲取進一

步的證據,以了解大火的蔓延情況。 E. 嚴重人命傷亡及財產損毁

  1. 並非每場火災均會導致災難級的人命傷亡。不少火警因

意外而起,要消除所有潛在火源並不可能。2024 年內共 有5 222 場破壞性火災,當中33 人罹難及449 人受傷。

  1. 與上述統計數字相比,宏福苑的傷亡數字令人震驚。警方

與消防處的證據顯示,是次事故造成168 人喪生及79 人 受傷。

  1. 168 名死者包括居民、家庭傭工、建築工人、訪客和1 名

消防員,年齡介乎6 個月至98 歲。傷亡個案的分布亦具 重大意義,稍後會在聽證會期間詳細檢視: 29.1 絕大部分傷亡個案(163 名死者及47 名傷者)發生在 最先起火的宏昌閣和宏泰閣。 29.2 宏昌閣和宏泰閣很多遺體均在單位內被發現,但亦 有不少在梯間被發現。 29.3 相比之下,宏新閣雖被嚴重焚燒,惟死亡個案相對 較少。宏盛閣、宏建閣和宏仁閣只有少數傷亡個案, 可能原因包括大火較遲蔓延至該處和可供逃生的 時間有別。

  1. 大火造成大規模的財產損毁。在7 幢受影響樓宇共1 736

個單位中,有924 個單位被焚燒,損毁程度不一。部分單 位完全焚毁,但隔鄰單位則未受波及。

應保障性命的消防安全措施嚴重失效。經檢視的證據帶 出至少以下幾方面的嚴肅問題: 31.1. 在8 幢樓宇中,有7 幢的火警警報系統被關閉。系 統失效延誤了向居民發出警報,縮短了可供安全疏 散的時間。 31.2. 梯間窗戶被暫時拆除,作為工人進出外牆棚架的開 口。根據現有證據,這個做法似乎導致濃煙和火勢 進入至居民賴以逃生的通道並蔓延。 31.3. 有證據顯示消防栓/喉轆系統連月關閉。居民曾嘗 試使用喉轆,但不成功。 31.4. 有證據顯示樓宇外牆有大量易燃物。棚架安全網因 颱風損毀後被更換為可燃網,而非法例規定的阻燃 網。窗戶以易燃發泡膠板遮封,可能助長火勢蔓延 至單位內。

煙和火勢早已遍及樓梯和走廊,可供安全逃生的時間便 會驟減。若因火警警報系統失效而延遲發出警報,或居民 因無法看見窗外火光而延遲察覺火警發生,安全逃生所 需的時間便會相應增加。 F. 緊急應變

約於14:50 撥出,當時派出7 輛消防車,包括1 輛旋轉台 鋼梯車。這些消防車約於14:56 至15:01 之間抵達,隨後 有更多消防車到場。火警於15:02 升為三級、於15:34 升 為四級,並於18:22 升為五級。截至22:30,共有174 輛 消防車和47 輛救護車被派往現場,涉及989 名消防員。

求助電話的處理,以及滅火行動本身,有些重要問題仍待 解答。例如: 34.1 委員會將檢視是否本可或本應採取更多措施提醒 宏昌閣以外各座的居民、是否有其他警報系統可 用,以及警鐘普遍失效是否實質上延遲了疏散。 34.2 委員會亦會檢視電話中心在事發之初當大量來電 必然湧至時對999 求助電話的處理,以及延遲接聽 或會議轉接是否有可能對被困居民產生實際影響。 34.3 委員會還會檢視派出消防車和人員到宏福苑的部 署,考慮是否本可或本應採取更多措施,阻止火勢 在樓宇之間蔓延,或在更短時間內撲滅火災。

  1. 最後,委員會將聽取關於消防員何偉豪殉職的證據。何先

生在執行職務期間犧牲性命,他的離世令人深感悲痛。委 員會將適當地以謹慎和尊重的態度,仔細考慮他被困的 情形和離世前面臨的狀況。 G. 各方在物料運用及消防安全方面的角色

  1. 委員會根據其職權範圍,審視各方的角色與責任,特別是

維修工程是否受到充分監管,以及建造安全的要求和標 準是否充足。

  1. 至今經審視的證據已揭示若干系統性問題,而這些問題

不可接受,亦不容忽視。 G1. 在工地吸煙

  1. 不論火災是否因點燃香煙而起,工人吸煙問題已再三引

起居民憂慮。

  1. 承建商已張貼告示嚴禁工人吸煙,並列明一旦被發現違

規所招致的後果,惟工人吸煙情況持續。

  1. 委員會將檢視下列證據:居民拍攝到工人在棚架內及附

近吸煙的照片和影片、顯示起火前不久有一名工人正在 吸煙的閉路電視片段,以及居民作出的多次投訴。

  1. 勞工處早在2024 年7 月獲悉有關情況,並多次到場調查,

惟因在視察期間未曾目睹工人吸煙而一再斷定居民投訴

「理據不足」。勞工處亦強調,公眾安全不屬其管轄的職 業安全法例範疇。

  1. 其中一宗投訴獲轉介至消防處,但處方回覆指事件不屬

其管轄範圍。

  1. 結果造成監管真空。如勞工處不處理工人在棚架上吸煙

所引致的風險,而消防處亦不處理,到底責任誰屬? G2. 建築物料及規管架構

  1. 根據職權範圍,委員會須審視現行符合安全標準的用料

清單是否全面,以及有關驗證和檢測制度是否有效。按照 現有證據,上述兩項目標到底是否達到,存在重大疑問。

  1. 宏福苑的維修項目被歸類為「小型工程」和「豁免工程」。

換言之,工程展開前無須就建築物料的選用或使用提交 政府批准或審核。有關制度依賴私營註冊專業人士和承 建商自我規管。

  1. 有關臨時建築物料的問題尤為嚴重。視乎專家證詞,現有

證據顯示,許多用於輔助施工的物料或為可燃物,例如竹 棚、安全網、木板、踢腳板、尼龍帶和發泡膠板。除針對 安全網和帆布的若干規定外,對於類似宏福苑起火時包 圍樓宇的多種臨時物料,似乎並無具體的阻燃標準或規 定。

  1. 這不是說一般法律規定(例如《建築物(建造)規例》(第

123Q 章))並不適用於可燃臨時建築物料的使用。一如我 們稍後聽取的證供,政府各部門採取的立場互相矛盾。房 屋署獨立審查組曾表示臨時物料不屬於「建築工程」,因 此不受阻燃規定所規管。相反,屋宇署的證據指出,把易 燃物料固定在住宅樓宇外牆,顯然會增加火警風險,可能 違反法定要求。 G3. 棚網

  1. 自1995 年5 月起,棚架上的保護網和帆布一直受阻燃規

定所規管。有關規定在業界廣為人知,而宏福苑工程承建 商亦知悉該規定。

已有大量證據顯示,2025 年7 月和9 月颱風損毁圍網後, 有人大量購入較便宜的非阻燃網以作替代。此事已獲分 包商(盈利豐棚業有限公司)及其供應商承認,也有警方檢 獲的材料佐證。

另有證據顯示,事件涉及隱瞞事實或失實陳述。現有材料 顯示,有人或曾多次以過期或不適用的證書充當合規證 明。更有證據顯示,有人曾在獨立審查組前往視察之前不 久,緊急購入阻燃網,且有證據顯示,與承建商有聯繫的 人士事先獲悉有關視察。上述事情值得關注,並會在聽證 會上審視。

視察制度本身同樣引起重大關注。有直接證據(包括視察 期間的錄影片段)顯示,獨立審查組的視察過程有潛在缺 失。

聽證會將檢視採用非阻燃網的因由和經過、何人知情、是 否存在刻意隱瞞,以及為何勞工處和獨立審查組均未能 發現或阻止。 G4. 使用發泡膠板遮封窗戶

使用發泡膠板遮封窗戶是另一個令人關注的問題。根據 宏業、鴻毅和法團代表開會的記錄,早於2024 年6 月17 日已有居民提出發泡膠板易燃,一旦發生火警便會產生 大量濃煙的關注。然而,總承建商宏業堅持使用發泡膠 板,而鴻毅亦批准使用。

居民曾多次投訴發泡膠板問題,甚至自行進行燃燒測試 並拍攝影片。有關投訴已提交1823、消防處、獨立審查 組和其他部門。

當局的回應再次顯得零散不全。消防處表示,在進行外牆 維修期間將聚苯乙烯(polystyrene) 板固定於建築物窗戶 上的做法,不屬其職權範圍。一如上文所述,獨立審查組 認為使用臨時發泡膠板並不構成「建築工程」,因此無須 符合任何阻燃標準。各部門均沒有對發泡膠板的易燃性 進行測試,似乎都認為此事屬於其他部門的責任。

聽證會將檢視發泡膠板在多大程度上助長火勢蔓延至單 位內及阻礙居民察覺室外濃煙和火光,以致在關鍵時刻 延誤疏散。 G5. 消防裝置

主動式消防安全設備失效是證據揭示的核心問題之一。 宏福苑每幢樓宇均配備火警警報系統和消防栓/喉轆系 統。然而,證據顯示火災當日大多數樓宇的警鐘不能運 作,而消防栓/喉轆系統亦被關閉。

宏泰消防的證供顯示,該公司在2025 年10 月和11 月進 行維修工程時,發現消防水缸是空的,其後發現所有8 棟 樓宇的消防泵的電源開關總掣都被關閉。據其理解,電源 開關總掣也同時關閉了火警警報系統。在此情況下,宏泰 消防是否應該採取進一步行動以確保火警警報系統能夠 運作,或至少把系統關閉一事通知消防處?

中華發展工程有限公司(中華發展)的證供令人更感不安。 該公司獲委聘提交消防栓/喉轆系統關閉通知書,以便 維修漏水水缸。其董事承認,在提交該等通知書之前,沒 有任何公司代表前往宏福苑親自了解現場系統的情況、 擬議工程的性質或關閉系統的必要性。該公司只是填寫 並提交文件而已。

其後,中華發展多次向消防處提交延期申請並獲批准,令 消防栓/喉轆系統連月關閉。此事帶出中華發展有否妥 為檢視延期申請這個嚴肅問題。中華發展如曾真正查核 維修工程的進展,很可能便會發現長期關閉系統並無必 要,而火警警報系統也被關閉。

消防處收到關閉通知書後,需要進行實地風險評估和監 督。聽證會將探討監督工作是否足夠、消防系統關閉的持 續時間是否妥為控制,以及消防處是否理應發現火警警 報系統已被關閉。

置邦的角色亦相當重要。該公司的工人承認,是他本人關 閉所有8 棟樓宇的消防電源開關總掣,按其理解,為進行

維修而清空水缸便須關閉總掣。然而,他不是註冊消防裝 置承辦商。聽證會將檢視置邦在這方面的責任。

  1. 總括而言,表面證據顯示,消防裝置管理在每個階段均出

錯:沒有考慮關閉消防裝置是否真正必要;沒有留意、報 告或防止火警警報系統被關閉;沒有加快維修工作;以及 沒有確保及時恢復或重新開啟必要消防系統。 G6. 樓梯及逃生通道的開口

  1. 逃生樓梯的開口是特別重要的議題。該等樓梯是火警發

生時供居民通往安全地點的防護通道。然而,證據顯示樓 梯的窗戶被拆除並以臨時木門取代,讓工人和物料在樓 宇內部與外牆棚架之間進出。分包商形容這是常見做法。

  1. 根據所得證據,這些開口每五層設置一個,而臨時門由可

燃物料製成。這些門在白天通常保持開啟,包括大火發生 之時。這個做法的結果是,外部火災產生的濃煙和熱力可 直接進入梯間,對本應受防護的逃生通道構成潛在危害。

  1. 屋宇署的證據顯示,在梯間設置開口或已違反多項消防

安全規定。然而,沒有政府部門,包括曾進行多次實地視 察的獨立審查組和勞工處,指出這些開口或作出報告。這 種集體遺漏令人不滿。聽證會將審視就此等監管失效提 出的解釋,以及其在多大程度上導致居民面對險境。 H. 圍標、合謀串連及系統性事宜 H1. 涉及面更廣的系統性狀況

  1. 根據職權範圍第二段,委員會須審視在大型樓宇維修工

程中是否存在系統性問題。委員會不可能亦不宜就香港 每一宗圍標或不當的合謀串連個案作出結論,而裁定涉 及宏福苑工程的民事或刑事法律責任亦非委員會的職 能,應由執法機關和法院處理。

  1. 然而,審視相關證據以了解該等問題如何發生、保障機制

為何失效,以及可能需要進行哪些改革以免重蹈覆轍,正 是委員會職權範圍內的工作。

會、廉署及警方提供協助。這些資料指向同一方向:大型 樓宇維修市場的問題或已相當普遍、屬系統性且積弊已 久。

不少的樓宇維修承建商操控樓宇維修工程的招標結果, 並形容做法相當普遍、屬系統性且積弊已久。有時,有表 面上獨立但實際上可能與特定承建商勾結的人士助長這 些行為。其手法不僅限於圍標,還包括合謀定價、瓜分市 場、提交掩護式標書,以及利用關連公司營造競爭假象。

或涉貪污風險;專業人員為數不多,易受不當影響;亦有 情報或經驗顯示,市場的若干部分或已受有組織或集團 主導的手法影響。

然而,至今經檢視的資料清楚顯示,困擾大型維修工程市 場的系統性問題需要嚴肅和持續關注。 H2. 以宏福苑為例審視相關問題

題的具體例子。事情始於鴻毅在強制驗樓計劃下獲委任 為註冊檢驗人員,其後獲委任為工程顧問,兩次委任的中 標價均大幅低於相關投標的平均入標價。

為嚴重。工程項目吸引大批投標者入標。呈交委員會的資 料顯示,部分投標者與最終中標的承建商即宏業互有關 聯,但鴻毅撰寫的標書分析報告對此未予披露。宏福苑居 民理應受誠實、透明的招標過程所保障。委員會將會聽取 證供,以判斷居民是否獲此保障。

於宏業過去8 年沒有訴訟記錄,於是在訴訟或定罪記錄 一項給予滿分。這與事實完全不符。宏業在2017 至2023 年期間因違反職安健罪行而被定罪 24 次,更於2023 年 因涉及非法建築工程的不當行為而被定罪。上述定罪記 錄均為公共記錄事項。

  1. 令人更感不安的是,鴻毅一名項目經理供稱,報告在敲定

前刪除了宏業涉及訴訟或紀律處分的記項,並修改了評 分。若此證供獲得接納,則呈交業主的資料不僅是不完 整,更是遭到蓄意操弄。

  1. 就委任宏業而召開的特別業主大會備受爭議。居民就點

票數目、授權投票書的取得與使用、不准提問,以及對宏 業背景問題的處理方式等事項,提出質疑。他們其後向多 個政府部門投訴,但這些投訴大致只在各部門之間轉介, 又或交回法團處理,沒有實質結果。

  1. 市建局的角色同樣備受質疑。宏福苑參加了市建局的「招

標妥」計劃,但該局並不審核招標文件以檢查鴻毅對宏業 的評分是否合理。市建局解釋,該局並非執法機構,只擔 當「協助者」的角色,但承認「招標妥」計劃旨在盡量減低 圍標風險。當居民被隱瞞的定罪記錄及承建商之間的關 聯所誤導,該計劃又能否符合上述宗旨?整體而言,市建 局的參與似乎反而令本身有缺陷的程序增添公信力,而 相關程序至今仍然易因不當干預、合謀串連、操弄和圍標 而被濫用。 H3. 工程顧問及註冊檢驗人員的角色

  1. 關於鴻毅所涉角色的證據,令人深感不安。
  2. 事發時,吳躍先生是鴻毅的董事,亦是公司唯一的註冊檢

驗人員。

  1. 有證據顯示,吳先生在擔任鴻毅唯一註冊檢驗人員期間,

同時亦是另一家公司的全職僱員。此事帶出一個嚴肅問 題:他是否以特約形式受聘取酬,負責簽署法定表格及報 告,而非真正監督有關工程?委員會將在聽證會詳細檢 視這方面的證據,包括所檢取的通訊記錄。

  1. 事件的影響遠不止於宏福苑。法定機制的運作建基於註

冊檢驗人員以獨立的合資格專業人員身分,親身履行監 督職責。若註冊檢驗人員淪為橡皮圖章,沒有真正監督承

建商的工程,這將嚴重削弱制度的誠信,損害業主的權 益。因此,委員會須考慮的不僅是宏福苑發生何事,還有 證據所示導致有關制度易遭濫用的系統性漏洞。

委員會代表大律師: 杜淦堃資深大律師 李澍桓大律師 俞匡庭大律師 李俊軒大律師 張天風大律師 馮天榮大律師 委員會代表律師: 羅文錦律師樓

2026 年3 月17 日

FD06238 | 2025_港澳台_香港宏福苑大火_Opening-Address-(Chi)-Relevant-Bureaux-and-Departments-of-Government_20260324.pdf

分类:06_境外及港澳台调查报告 | 年份:2025 | 地域:香港 | 严重程度: | 场所: | 起火原因:燃气/爆炸;焊接/动火 | 来源格式:pdf

就大埔宏福苑火災成立的獨立委員會 政府相關政策局與部門書面開場陳詞 A. 引言 1. 本書面開場陳詞由政府相關政策局與部門1向就大埔宏福苑火災成立 的獨立委員會(下稱「獨立委員會」)提交。本陳詞旨在就獨立委 員會的調查工作(下稱「本調查」)提供初步背景,簡述 (1) 政府就 本調查所持的立場及配合方式;(2) 宏福苑屋苑及火災經過的基本背 景;(3) 就獨立委員會職權範圍(下稱「職權範圍」)第(一)項所 涉及的火災直接成因及系統性問題的初步觀察;(4) 就職權範圍第 (二)項所涉及的利益衝突及違規招標等系統性問題的初步觀察; 以及 (5) 政府相關部門自火災發生後已採取或擬採取的即時及中長期 改善措施。 2. 2025 年11 月26 日,大埔宏福苑發生嚴重火災,奪去168 條寶貴人 命,並造成多人受傷及財產嚴重損毀。這是香港近年來傷亡最為慘 重的火災事故,令全港市民極為痛心。政府謹向所有在是次火災中 不幸罹難的市民致以最深切的哀悼,並向所有死傷者的家屬表示最 衷誠的慰問。 3. 是次慘劇深刻提醒我們,樓宇安全及消防安全對香港市民的生命及 財產安全保障至關重要。政府深明,罹難者家屬、宏福苑居民及廣 大市民均期望透過今次獨立委員會的調查工作,得到公正、清晰而 全面的交代。本調查不僅旨在查明宏福苑火災的成因,更肩負着為

1 即 (1) 警務處、(2) 消防處、(3) 民政事務總署、(4) 房屋署、(5) 屋宇署及 (6) 勞工處

-2- 未來制訂改善措施、建言獻策的重大責任,以確保同類悲劇不再發 生。 4. 獨立委員會的職權範圍涵蓋以下四個方面: (1) 職權範圍(一):就大埔宏福苑起火、火勢迅速蔓延和造成的 人命傷亡及財產損毀,審視 – 成因和導致火災發生的情由; 大廈配置的消防裝置及設備,及其有效運作的監督和責任問題; 有關的樓宇維修工程的施工安全要求、標準、監督和日常維護 制度是否足夠;針對樓宇維修工程,現行安全標準的用料清單 是否全面,有關的驗證和檢測制度是否有效;各環節的監管人 員(包括政府部門人員、授權負責的專業人士及承建商等)的 角色和責任承擔;和上述問題相關的責任。 (2) 職權範圍(二):針對大型樓宇維修工程,審視 – 有關工程 各環節有否不適當的相連利益、角色衝突、不當的合謀串連等 系統性問題;及有關工程有否涉貪圍標,違規招標的問題。 (3) 職權範圍(三):就上述兩項事宜,檢視現行相關法律的規管 及懲罰是否足夠。 (4) 職權範圍(四):就上述(1)至(3)的事宜,提出建議。 5. 上述職權範圍充分反映本調查的深度與廣度,可見獨立委員會肩負 的調查工作極為繁重。政府充分理解本調查範圍廣泛、問題複雜, 選用此形式旨在確保調查工作能夠更靈活、更迅速地進行,同時維 持公開透明的原則。政府明確支持獨立委員會採用此種調查方式, 並承諾給予全力支持,以此回應罹難者家屬、宏福苑居民及社會大 眾對今次事件真相的期待。

-3- B. 政府的立場及配合方式 6. 宏福苑火災發生後,行政長官迅速採取行動,於2025 年12 月成立獨 立委員會,展現了徹查事件的堅定決心。獨立委員會在行政長官授 權下,隨即展開工作,積極展開調查工作。 7. 政府於本調查採取的是主動式的配合方式。自獨立委員會開始運作 以來,政府部門積極回應獨立委員會法律團隊所發出的信函,並且 與此同時主動向獨立委員會提交與職權範圍相關的文件、資料及證 人供詞。在獨立委員會審視範圍廣泛的調查事宜過程中,作為一項 指導性原則,凡政府認為相關資料及文件可供獨立委員會參考,均 會提出及提供,不假等候。 8. 此外,政府理解,本調查的深度與廣度,有賴各方在調查過程中持 續提供資料及文件,讓獨立委員會可在充份掌握相關客觀情況的前 提下作出全面的調查和裁斷。由於本案涉及的範圍廣泛、問題複雜, 相關文件及資料的整理工作極為繁重,各政府部門均在極為緊迫的 時間內全力配合,至今仍持續進行。 9. 自獨立委員會於2025 年12月展開工作起,政府相關部門已在短時間 內向獨立委員會提交大量的證人供詞及文件資料,亦體現了政府對 本調查的高度重視及對獨立委員會工作的全力支持。 10. 與此同時,獨立委員會及其法律團隊亦已就政府各相關部門及其他 當事方所提交的大量文件及資料進行審閱,並據此整理本調查之聆 訊文件冊及擬定證人名單等。政府明白,本調查涉及的事實及背景 錯綜複雜,諸多細節有待在聽證會過程中進一步呈現及釐清。在即 將展開的公開聽證會中,相關證人將就各自範疇作出陳述及接受提

-4- 問,相信屆時將有助公眾更全面了解事件的來龍去脈。政府在整個 聽證會過程中亦會繼續全力配合獨立委員會的工作,務求為獨立委 員會及公眾呈現事件的客觀全貌。 C. 宏福苑屋苑及火災經過的基本背景 宏福苑概況 11. 宏福苑是香港的居屋屋苑(即「居者有其屋計劃屋苑」,簡稱「居 屋屋苑」),於1983 年落成,由八幢住宅大廈組成,分別為:宏仁 閣(A 座)、宏道閣(B 座)、宏新閣(C 座)、宏健閣(D 座)、 宏泰閣(E 座)、宏昌閣(F 座)、宏盛閣(G 座)及宏志閣(H 座)。 12. 每幢大廈均設有三十一層,每層劃分為八個住宅單位(編號(一) 1 至 (八) 8),並以走廊相連,升降機大堂位於走廊中央。在升降機大堂 對面,設有兩組交叉走向的樓梯,俗稱「鉸剪梯」,作為走火通道。 兩組樓梯均可由三十一樓頂層通往地面,惟只有其中一組可通往天 台。 13. 根據香港法例第283章《房屋條例》和香港法例第123章《建築物條 例》的相關規定,宏福苑受《建築物條例》監管,並由隸屬房屋局 常任秘書長辦公室的獨立審查組(下稱「ICU」)在建築事務監督 (即屋宇署署長)的授權下,按照《建築物條例》及建築事務監督 的政策和指引,對宏福苑進行《建築物條例》下的法定監管。 大廈維修工程背景

-5- 14. 宏福苑於2014 年被選定為強制驗樓計劃(下稱「MBIS」)下的目 標樓宇之一。 15. ICU 隨後於2014 年4 月29 日向宏福苑業主立案法團(下稱「宏福苑 立案法團」)發出MBIS 的預先通知函件,並於2016 年6 月10 日正 式向宏福苑立案法團發出《建築物條例》第30B(3)條下進行訂明檢 驗及訂明修葺的法定通知。 16. 此後,ICU 於2017 年6 月至2019 年10 月期間五度批准延長法定通 知的期限。 17. 宏福苑立案法團於2019 年1 月委任了鴻毅建築師事務有限公司 (Will Power Architects Company Limited,「鴻毅」)擔任檢驗顧問 公司。 18. 2021 年12 月,鴻毅被宏福苑立案法團委任為維修工程的監管及維修 顧問公司。 19. 2023 年5 月,宏福苑立案法團就維修工程之承建商開始招標。2024 年1 月28 日,宏業建築工程有限公司(Prestige Construction & Engineering Co. Limited,「宏業」)被宏福苑立案法團選為維修工 程承建商。維修工程於2024 年7 月正式展開。 火災經過概述 20. 2025 年11 月26 日下午2 時51 分,消防處屬下消防通訊中心接獲第 一個火警報告,報案人稱宏昌閣外牆棚架起火並發生爆炸。 首輛消 防車隨即於下午2 時56 分抵達現場。

-6- 21. 鑑於火勢迅速發展及滅火和搜救行動所需資源增加,消防人員於抵 達後6 分鐘(即下午3 時02 分)將火警升級為三級火警。 其後,消 防人員於下午3 時34 分進一步將火警升級為四級火警。 最終,消防 處副處長(行動)於晚上6 時22 分將火警升級為五級火警,並親自 統領整體指揮工作。 22. 基於政府現時初步掌握的資料,相信火勢迅速沿涉事大廈外牆的內 角(re-entrant)向上蔓延,其擴散方式疑受「煙囪效應」影響,熱 空氣、煙氣及可燃氣體,於內角內急速上升。在個別大廈,火焰在 極短時間內由低層迅速蔓延至天台。火勢在個別大廈的急速發展, 導致大量燃燒中的竹枝及殘骸不斷從高處墜下,堆積於地面,阻塞 了宏昌閣及宏泰閣的出入口,火勢並因天氣因素影響,快速蔓延到 其他大廈。 23. 根據前線消防人員匯報,熱能顯像機偵測到部分起火單位的溫度高 達攝氏800 度,部分走廊亦達約攝氏400 度。 24. 在整個行動期間,共有九名在大廈內執行滅火及搜救任務的消防人 員因熱衰竭、體力透支、呼吸困難、吸入濃煙或被墜下物擊中而需 送院治療。尤為沉痛者,一名消防人員在火警初段進入宏泰閣高層 後,在執行職務期間以身殉職。 25. 警務人員亦在現場維持秩序,配合救火工作,其後全速投入後續搜 證、調查及遺體辨認等工作。

-7- 26. 醫護人員亦盡心盡力搶救每一位傷者,投入拯救生命及救助傷者的 工作。此外,還有其他不辭勞苦的前線人員、公務員和熱心市民參 與救援行動及後續善後工作。 27. 是次火災最終奪去168 條人命,並造成多人受傷及財產嚴重損毀。 D. 火災成因及相關的責任問題之初步觀察 28. 查明火災成因及相關的責任問題是職權範圍第(一)項的核心所在, 亦是本調查的重中之重。為了協助獨立委員會,以下各段將基於政 府現時初步掌握的資料,就相關成因及責任問題提出初步觀察。當 然,隨著證據的進一步披露、各方證人或專家作供及本調查的深入 進行,政府將就有關觀察作出適當更新或補充。詳細分析將留待聽 證會相關專家及證人完成其證供後作出,以便獨立委員會在考慮各 方充分陳詞後,作出知情而全面的裁斷。 29. 在獨立委員會於2025 年12月開始運作之前,消防處已成立一個跨部 門專責小組(「專責小組」),包括警務處、屋宇署、機電工程署、 ICU、勞工處、政府化驗所人員等以及消防工程專業人士,就火災 發生成因進行深入調查,其調查結果亦將為獨立委員會履行職權範 圍(一)的職責提供參考與支持。調查工作目前仍在進行之中,並 將隨調查推進而持續更新。 30. 與此同時,在籌備聽證會的過程中,相關政府部門已就職權範圍 (一)所涵蓋的各項議題,向委員會提交了大量文件、證人供詞及 技術資料。

-8- 31. 就職權範圍(一)所涉及的火災成因及責任問題,相信可從兩個層 次加以審視:其一,是今次火災的直接成因;其二,則是與火災相 關的系統性問題及制度改善空間。兩者相輔相成,共同構成獨立委 員會就職權範圍(一)所作調查的內容。 32. 政府留意到,獨立委員會的首席大律師在2026 年2 月5 日的指示會 議上指出,現有資料顯示今次事件涉及一系列結構性問題,情況不 容忽視。此一觀察亦印證了從以上兩個層次審視今次火災的必要性: 單憑查明直接成因,並不足以回應社會公眾對今次事件的深切關注; 唯有同時深入審視背後的系統性問題,方能有效防患於未然。 直接成因之初步觀察 33. 根據目擊者提供的資訊及影片,火災相信是起源於宏昌閣104 及105 室外的平台。此項發現其後獲專責小組進行實地視察及調查後所取 得的證據支持。 34. 就起火原因,警方已初步排除人為蓄意放火的可能性,理由是經科 學鑑證,現場起火源頭既無發現助燃劑的痕跡,在火災發生前亦無 發現任何人有可疑的行為。在排除人為蓄意放火後,專責小組的調 查聚焦於意外因素。專責小組初步認為,今次火災最可能屬意外性 質,由一個熱源點燃可燃物料所引發。 35. 查明起火原因之外,同等重要的是理解火勢何以能在短時間內蔓延 至整個屋苑。 36. 就人命傷亡及財產損毀的問題,除火勢本身的猛烈程度外,亦有其 他值得關注的因素,有待獨立委員會深入審視。

-9- 37. 專責小組在其日期為2026 年2 月的中期調查報告中,就火災成因及 蔓延方式提出初步結論。專責小組將繼續就事故詳情展開深入調查, 包括進行火災分析及電腦流體力學模擬測試,並於最後報告中提供 詳細分析。最後報告暫定於2026 年5 月完成,並將於完成後提交獨 立委員會。 38. 與此同時,專責小組所委任的袁國傑教授作為專家亦於火災發生後 進行了包括火災模擬在內的相關研究工作及分析。消防處亦已經向 獨立委員會提交袁教授日期為2026 年2 月10 日的專家報告,以供獨 立委員會考慮。 39. 上述各項因素,將會是獨立委員會在聽證會中(聯同包括獨立委員 會所委任的專家,即Professor Asif Sohail Usmani 和江黎明教授)深 入考慮的課題。 系統性成因之初步觀察 40. 火災直接成因的查明,僅是本調查的起點,而非終點。職權範圍第 (一)項明確指出獨立委員會需調查「導致火災發生的情由」,此 措辭涵義深遠,要求獨立委員會不僅查明起火的直接原因,更須深 入審視促成或加劇火災發生及蔓延的更深層因素及制度背景。若要 防患未然、避免同類悲劇重演,更為根本的課題,是深入審視現行 制度在防範此類事故發生方面是否存在不足或可改善的空間。 41. 就此,職權範圍第(一)項明確羅列了委員會須審視的若干具體範 疇。

-10- 42. 獨立委員會在審視各項系統性問題時,須對香港樓宇管理及維修規 管制度的歷史背景及技術複雜性有所認識。我們在此扼要陳詞,希 望可以協助獨立委員會。 43. 現行涉及樓宇維修工程、工地安全、大廈管理及消防安全的各項制 度,均非一朝一夕建立,而是歷經數十年的政策演變及立法發展, 由業主、業界(包括授權負責的專業人士及承建商等)和政府多個 部門相輔相成,各司其職。相關制度所涉及的技術層面,包括建築 工程規格、消防安全標準、建築物料要求及工地監督機制等,均涉 及專業層面的考量。獨立委員會將可透過相關當事方包括政府部門 人員及專家證人的證供,特別是就上述技術事宜及制度背景作出的 詳盡說明,以充分理解制度運作;並在此基礎上,客觀審視現行安 排是否存在不足或可改善的空間,並評估各方的相關角色與責任。 44. 根據紀錄,消防處在火警發生前已接獲消防裝置承辦商的通知,宏 福苑八座大廈的消防栓╱喉轆系統因維修而需要關閉,但直至火警 發生時,消防處並沒有接獲宏福苑八座大廈的火警警報系統需要關 閉的通知。然而,初步顯示,在宏福苑火災發生之際,涉事的八座 大廈中至少有七座大廈的火警警報系統未能有效運作。因此,獨立 委員會將會就消防裝置有效運作審視現行制度下的政府部門、業主、 業界(包括授權負責的專業人士及承建商等)和其他持分者(包括 物業管理公司等)的角色、規管與相關監管制度及其可改善的空間。 45. 樓宇維修工程的施工安全要求、標準、監督、工地及樓宇管理和日 常維護制度:獨立委員會將可審視現行法規及規管框架,尤其是針 對多層樓宇外牆維修工程所使用的臨時施工措施,包括棚架、木板 及鋪設的保護網(俗稱棚網)及底護板,現行制度下的政府部門、

-11- 業主、業界(包括授權負責的專業人士及承建商等)和其他持分者 (包括物業管理公司等)的角色、規管與相關監管制度及其可改善 的空間,包括現行安全標準(如適用的阻燃標準等)是否足夠明確、 具體且罰則具有足夠的阻嚇力等事宜。就監督制度而言,獨立委員 會亦可以進一步審視工程進行期間,現行機制能否有效確保指明的 建築物料及施工程序符合相關法規及安全標準的要求,以及現行的 監督能否對工地的實際施工情況進行有效的實地監察核查。此外, 獨立委員會也可以就業界規管、工程監督、工地及樓宇管理和日常 維護制度的整體設計,評估相關制度是否存在結構性的漏洞或不足。 46. 相關建築物料的現行安全標準(如適用的阻燃標準等)的用料清單 及驗證、檢測制度:針對現行制度下,就樓宇維修工程中須使用符 合安全標準(如適用的阻燃標準等)物料的規定而言,有關規定是 否足夠清晰,並合乎實際情況及配合妥善工地管理,按風險涵蓋關 鍵的建築物料類別;現行的查驗機制能否有效識別及攔截不合規物 料在工地使用;這些問題,獨立委員會將可以在聽證會中依賴相關 專家及具備物料測試及工程規管經驗人士(包括涉及宏福苑維修工 程的有關政府部門工作人員)作出解說。 47. 各環節監管人員、業主和業界的角色及責任承擔:樓宇維修工程的 安全施行直接關乎市民能否安居樂業。如上所述,現行制度下的政 府部門、業主、業界(包括授權負責的專業人士及承建商等)和其 他持分者(包括物業管理公司等)相互配合與分工的規管格局有其 歷史沿革及技術上的客觀原因。政府相關部門將就各自職責範疇內 的監管制度安排及具體執行情況,向獨立委員會作出詳盡說明,全 力協助獨立委員會釐清各環節的角色分工與責任承擔。

-12- E. 利益衝突、合謀串連及違規招標等系統性問題 48. 針對調查職權範圍第(二)項所涉及的問題,政府同意獨立委員會 的首席大律師在2026 年2 月5 日的指示會議上作出的觀察,即其須 在公眾利益的大前提下處理。就上述事宜,執法機關現亦正進行獨 立的刑事調查及檢控程序。查明真相、追究責任,以及確保法律程 序得以公正進行,均符合公眾利益。讓本應承擔法律責任的人士得 以逍遙法外,絕非公眾之福。 49. 根據現有資料,政府相關部門在宏福苑維修工程招標程序中的參與 程度,初步而言並不顯著。政府各相關部門將秉持公眾利益至上的 原則,在獨立委員會調查過程中繼續保持透明,協助獨立委員會履 行其職權範圍下的職責。 50. 此外,政府亦注意到,獨立委員會首席大律師在指示會議上特別強 調,職權範圍第(二)項所涵蓋的範圍,並不局限於宏福苑個別項 目本身,而是涉及更廣泛的系統性問題。就此,政府相關部門同樣 會配合委員會的調查工作,就更宏觀的制度層面問題,提供資料及 協助。 F. 改善措施 51. 宏福苑火災發生後,政府深明有責任立即採取行動,回應市民的關 切,並推動相關制度的改革,以確保同類悲劇不再發生。行政長官 亦曾承諾,調查工作必定一問到底、問責到底,並動議提出開展各 領域的改善措施,支持和協助獨立委員會的全面審視,為求盡快完 成工作,並推行系統性改革。

-13- 52. 獨立委員會職權範圍第(三)項及第(四)項分別要求獨立委員會 審視現行相關法律的規管及懲罰是否足夠,以及就職權範圍(一) 至(三)所涵蓋的各項事宜提出建議。上述兩項職權範圍,相信會 為政府就今次火災所揭示的問題推動改革提供重要的方向。政府明 白,獨立委員會的調查結論及建議,將為日後制度改革提供重要指 引。政府相關部門亦定將認真考慮並積極回應獨立委員會於最後報 告中就上述各項事宜所提出的建議。 53. 與此同時,政府已就今次火災所揭示的各項問題,分別從即時應對 及中長期制度改革兩個層面採取行動。即時措施旨在針對現行制度 中最為迫切的議題提供必要的保障;中長期改革措施則有待在更全 面的基礎上推動系統性改革。以下各段,將概述部分相關政府部門 自火災發生後已採取的即時及擬採取的中長期措施。 54. 相關措施既反映政府對今次火災所揭示的各項問題的嚴肅關注,亦 展示政府在制度改革上的誠意與決心。政府深信,今次獨立委員會 的調查工作,將為日後推動更全面、更深層的系統性改革提供堅實 基礎,而政府亦必將在獨立委員會提出建議後,作出積極而切實的 回應。 即時措施 55. 為及時有效地處理火警事故中發現的消防裝置及設備問題,消防處 自2025 年12 月4 日起設立專責快速應變小隊,以全天候候命形式運 作。快速應變小隊會出動應對所有樓宇火警,以檢視消防裝置在火 警時的運作情況,並於有需要時即時採取跟進或執法行動。

-14- 56. 此外,鑑於因樓宇大型維修╱翻新工程項目而可能引起的潛在火警 風險,消防處亦即時調配內部資源,成立專責隊,對相關樓宇的消 防裝置狀況重點巡查。相關的巡查工作已於2025 年12 月4 日起展 開。 57. 自2026 年1 月6 日起,消防處推出針對措施以加強消防裝置失效警 示,要求所有註冊消防裝置承辦商在關閉消防裝置時,必須對其他 裝置產生的連鎖影響履行識別、評估及呈報責任,並須要向大廈的 業主、佔用人及物業管理公司等人士披露相關消防裝置的損壞,從 而提升大廈的整體消防安全。另外,消防處亦優化消防裝置電源管 理及新增相關封條張貼標準與管理要求,承辦商須根據消防裝置電 源的供電狀態,使用綠色或紅色的封條緊貼電源開關掣,以確保大 廈業主、佔用人及物業管理公司能即時知悉消防總電源的狀態。 58. 此外,針對良莠不齊的棚網,發展局於2025 年12 月3 日指令所有進 行大型維修的樓宇棚網在三個工作天內下架,並即時檢討和改革棚 網檢測安排,在制度上增設多重關卡確保只有通過合格檢測的棚網 才可在相關維修工程使用(詳情請見下文第60 段)。 59. 屋宇署亦即時展開特別行動,巡查約400 幢正進行大型維修工程並 已搭建棚架的私人樓宇,檢查棚網的阻燃標準測試報告及證書,並 從現場收集棚網樣本送交認可實驗室化驗。屋宇署亦於2025 年11月 27 日向所有註冊建築專業人士及註冊承建商發出通告,要求所有承 建商就其負責的樓宇外牆棚網╱保護幕等提交報告,連同來自認可 實驗所的相關證書及測試報告,以確認符合認可阻燃標準及狀況良 好。隨後,自2025 年12月下旬起,屋宇署亦展開特別巡查行動,檢 視超過300 幢樓宇的維修修葺工程是否妥善遵從相關的消防安全預

-15- 防措施,例如防火屏障(包括防火門及防火固定窗)有否被拆除, 加強巡查大型樓宇維修地盤的工作於上述特別行動完成後亦繼續恆 常執行。 60. 為確保棚架防護材料符合認可標準並有效應對偽造測試報告問題, 屋宇署於2025 年12月中公佈《註冊承建商作業備考》85,主要有三 個新要求。第一,註冊承建商須取得每批棚網來貨時提供的阻燃效 能測試報告,並保存於地盤,以供執法當局隨時檢查。第二,規定 註冊承建商須按要求取樣檢驗棚網,包括在現存樓宇進行相關工程 前,必須先按要求抽取棚網樣本並取得符合認可阻燃效能標準的測 試報告後,方可將棚網上架,確保工地使用的棚網符合阻燃效能標 準。此外,棚網檢驗須由政府指定的認可實驗所進行,測試報告亦 須通過加密和數碼簽署,以確保真確性和完整性。第三,屋宇署收 到棚網上架通知後會隨機選取個別已上架的項目進行實地抽查。如 發現承建商未有遵從新制度的要求,又或隨機抽樣測試結果未能達 到認可阻燃標準,屋宇署將命令即時停工及要求拆除不符合標準的 棚網,並保留權利依法作出其他合適懲處。 61. 屋宇署於2026 年1 月下旬舉辦講座,提醒業界須遵守棚網抽樣檢測 新制度的要求,以及大廈維修工程進行期間須遵從的消防安全事 項,署方亦於3 月初向註冊建築專業人士及註冊承建商發出通告函 件,再次提醒業界在進行大型樓宇維修工程期間,必須注意並遵從 相關建築物消防安全守則及措施。 62. 火警後,ICU 亦即時配合屋宇署的特別行動,對正在進行大型修葺 及改善工程的居屋屋苑及租者置其屋計劃屋苑進行實地巡查,以及 因應屋宇署於2025 年11 月27 日向所有註冊專業人士及承建商發出

-16- 的通告,要求相關屋苑的承建商就樓宇外牆裝設棚網╱保護幕等提 交相關證書及測試報告,以確認符合認可防火標準及材料狀況良好。 發展局於2025 年12 月初下令拆除棚網後,ICU 亦持續對上述屋苑的 棚架狀況進行巡查。 63. 勞工處亦即時展開全港性的特別執法行動,巡查架設有大型棚架的 樓宇維修工程地盤的防火設施及火災應變安排。勞工處及後繼續跟 進違規地盤的改善情況及已移除樓宇外牆棚網的工地,以保障工人 工作安全。 64. 在屋苑管理方面,因應大火後宏福苑的管理面臨前所未有的挑戰, 民政及青年事務局局長首次引用香港法例第344 章《建築物管理條 例》第31 條,向土地審裁處申請解散宏福苑法團原有的管委會,並 委任華懋集團旗下的合安管理有限公司(「合安」)為管理人。土 地審裁處已於今年1 月6 日批准申請,而合安亦已投入工作。 中長期改革措施 65. 消防處:消防處成立「特大型火警事故策略督導委員會」,檢討處 理特大型火警的行動成效及可改善的地方。消防處將深化粵港澳大 灣區的救援合作以及協調機制,將特大型火警事故納入合作及演練 內容,並且優化三地消防行動配合程序。此外,在科技應用方面, 消防處將加強運用大數據及人工智能分析巡查所得的風險數據,制 定針對性的緩解策略;並探索採用最新技術以持續監察消防裝置的 運作狀況。為進一步加強整體消防安全,消防處成立「法例修訂工 作組」,對規管消防裝置及設備、規管消防裝置承辦商,以及消除 火警危險的現行法律框架進行專項檢討,以識別適宜修訂或更新的

-17- 範疇,推行一系列立法修訂。在規管消防裝置及設備方面,消防處 建議加入大廈消防裝置關閉前必須得到處方批准的法律條文,以強 化消防處的規管職能。此外,建議引入物業管理公司對大廈消防設 施的法定管理責任,令物業管理公司在制度上成為消防安全的法定 責任人。在規管消防裝置承辦商方面,大幅提高註冊承辦商簽發虛 假或誤導性消防裝置及設備證書的罰則,以提高阻嚇力。而與火警 危險相關的罪行方面,建議就一些易於核實的違規行為引入定額罰 款制度,從而加強執法效率和罰則的確定性和一致性。 66. 勞工處:勞工處正修訂法例,落實在建築地盤全面禁煙,包括要求 承建商採取所有合理措施在建築地盤內實施禁煙;以及以定額罰款 方式懲罰在建築地盤吸煙的人,從而提高地盤的安全水平。與此同 時,勞工處正修訂有關棚架的工作守則,並為俗稱「踢腳板」所使 用的物料訂定要求。 67. 發展局及屋宇署:在規管框架方面,《建築物條例》的修例範圍將 擴大,包括將大型維修工程由目前主要為第二級小型工程提升至第 一級小型工程,以便提升規管要求,指明須由第三方專業人士制訂 訂明圖則和進行監工;將屋宇署目前透過作業備考和其他行政方式 頒布的指明的建築物料標準訂明為法定要求,以便可就不合標物料 更直接作出檢控,並提高罰則。此外,亦建議加強對註冊建築專業 人士和註冊承建商的規管,包括提高違規的最高刑罰、強化註冊和 紀律處分制度等,例如日後干犯《防止賄賂條例》亦可進行紀律處 分和作為註冊續期的考慮因素之一。另外,屋宇署會按風險為本原 則加強抽查和執法。

-18- 68. 此外,為減低圍標風險,發展局正與市區重建局制定措施,計畫於 今年下半年推出加強版「招標妥」服務,包括:(1) 制定更嚴謹的顧 問及承建商「預審名單」,除考慮犯罪和紀律處分紀錄,亦會考慮 更多可反映過往表現的資料,顧問和承建商亦須通過警方和廉政公 署的背景審查,才能納入名單並參與投標;(2) 市區重建局會把關為 業主就聘用顧問和承建商進行招標和評標工作;(3) 就申領政府維修 資助的大廈,市區重建局會要求顧問和承建商在重要工程節點,例 如大幅修改工程範圍或增加工程費用等,向市區重建局報告,以便 市區重建局向業主給予獨立意見。剛公布的2026-27年度財政預算案 建議向市區重建局撥款共三億元,當中一億元是起動資金,讓市區 重建局成立專責團隊提供加強版「招標妥」服務;另外二億元資助 業主鼓勵他們使用加強版「招標妥」。 69. ICU:ICU 會繼續根據屋宇署的規管框架及建築材料安全要求,包括 上述新訂定的標準,進行相關的屋宇管制。此外,ICU 建議就大型 修葺工程的相關規管加強跨部門合作,例如聯合處理具廣泛影響的 投訴及查詢。同時,ICU 亦會與屋宇署探討就 大型修葺工程要求專 業人員提交現場監督記錄,加強審核巡查。 70. 民政事務總署:民政事務總署將發揮其與業主立案法團保持緊密聯 繫的角色優勢,促進相關政府部門與法團之間的溝通及協調。此外, 民政事務總署亦就《建築物管理條例》初步擬定五大修訂方向,包 括提高大型維修工程及大額採購決定的出席及投票門檻;完善委任 代表文書制度;完善利益申報制度;清晰會議程序加強主管當局權 力。

-19- 71. 從整體制度層面而言,是次火災亦揭示了現行跨部門協作機制存在 進一步優化的空間。各相關部門將從政策制訂、日常巡查、執法行 動及緊急危機等四個層面,系統性地優化與其他部門之間的協作機 制。 72. 政府各有關政策局及部門會爭取時間盡早推展並落實上述已公布的 改善措施並持續檢討及研究進一步的措施,讓制度早日完善、市民 早日受惠於更佳的制度。政府亦將在獨立委員會完成調查並提出建 議後,作進一步完善和優化。 G. 其他事項 73. 就其他涉事方在今次調查中的角色、責任及相關法律問題,政府的 立場有待獨立委員會進一步披露相關資料,以及在聆訊過程中相關 證人及專家完成證供後,再作出全面而充分的陳述。

-20- H. 結論 74. 今次獨立委員會的調查工作,肩負着查明真相、釐清責任、推動改 革的重大使命。政府深明,唯有在獨立委員會的全面審視下,對今 次火災所揭示的各項問題作出客觀、公正而全面的認定,方能真正 回應罹難者家屬、宏福苑居民及廣大市民對公正交代的殷切期望。 75. 政府將在整個調查過程中,全力配合獨立委員會的工作,以期在制 度層面推動切實而深遠的改革,防止同類悲劇重演。政府期望,透 過今次調查及其後的跟進工作,香港的樓宇安全及消防安全制度能 夠得到審視與完善,使相關制度的安全保障得到切實加強,並符合 社會公眾的合理期望。

於2026 年3 月9 日向就大埔宏福苑火災成立的獨立委員會呈交 孫靖乾 資深大律師 卓元暢 大律師 陸栩然 大律師 劉逸冲 大律師

FD06239 | 2025_港澳台_香港宏福苑大火_The-Government-Submission-on-Improvement-Measures.pdf

分类:06_境外及港澳台调查报告 | 年份:2025 | 地域:香港 | 严重程度: | 场所: | 起火原因: | 来源格式:pdf

Independent Committee in relation to the fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po

The Government’s Submission on Improvement Measures (as at 15 June 2026)

At the Evidential Hearing on 8 May 2026, the Chairman of the Independent Committee made (inter alia) the following direction (“the Direction”), “Should involved parties have any recommendations on improvement measures in relation to the matters under ToR(1) and (2) of the Independent Committee, they must submit to the Independent Committee in writing on or before 15 June 2026.”

Subsequent to the fire, the Government responded swiftly in reviewing the measures and practice in a number of crucial areas and took the initiative to introduce timely and comprehensive remedial measures to address immediate safety concerns. The Department of Justice, representing the Hong Kong Police Force, the Fire Services Department, the Labour Department, the Buildings Department, the Housing Department and the Home Affairs Department in the proceedings of the Independent Committee has compiled a table which sets out a host of improvement measures already implemented by the relevant Government Departments or policy Bureaux in these critical areas as well as measures in progress (“the Table”). The Table is attached hereto at Annex.

Pursuant to the Direction, involved parties are to submit any “recommendations on improvement measures” to the Independent Committee. Unlike the other involved parties, the position of the Government Departments as involved parties is obviously different in this regard. The improvement measures as set out in the

Table are the result of proactive steps taken by relevant Government Departments and policy Bureaux to address various issues in a number of critical areas. These measures are not “recommendations” but rather concrete steps already implemented or otherwise work in progress on the part of the Government.

The Government would welcome the Independent Committee to make its own recommendations on top of those improvement measures already undertaken by the Government. In the meantime, on top of the measures set out in the Table, the Government will continue to review and act robustly on further improvement measures to address the problems including those to be identified by the Independent Committee in due course. Department of Justice 15 June 2026

Annex

Page 1 of 32 The Government’s1 Table of Improvement Measures

Improvement Measure Implementation Timeline A. Fire service installations (FSI) and equipment in buildings, the supervision and responsibility for their effective operation, and the roles and responsibilities of personnel with supervisory roles across all stages (including government officers, authorised professionals, contractors and others) 1. Fire Services Department (FSD) maintains close collaboration with property management organisations to enhance building fire safety

FSD has earlier engaged in in-depth exchanges with the Property Management Services Authority (PMSA), the Hong Kong Association of Property Management Companies Limited (HKAPMC), the Hong Kong Housing Authority (HA), the Hong Kong Housing Society (HS), and the Real Estate Developers Association of Hong Kong (REDA). FSD reminded property management personnel to proactively discharge their management duties and assist owners in properly maintaining fire service installations and equipment (FSIs) in common areas to ensure their continuous and effective operation.

Key focus areas include:

(i) Security and Management of Facility: Strengthen security over critical areas such as fire control rooms and F.S. pump rooms, The PMSA and HKAPMC issued letters to the industry on 10 and 19 December 2025, reminding them to fulfill their responsibilities by strengthening daily management and preventive measures, and enhancing fire safety awareness and response capabilities among staff and residents.

On 29 December 2025, FSD provided "Fire Services Department Building Emergency Responder" training to approximately 100 management personnel of the Housing Department.

In collaboration with the PMSA, FSD conducted a dedicated seminar on 21

1 While the Department of Justice is representing 6 Government Bureaux / Departments in these proceedings (see paragraph 2 of the cover submission), this table of improvement measures also covers improvement measures implemented or to be implemented by the Commerce and Economic Development Bureau.

Annex

Page 2 of 32 Improvement Measure Implementation Timeline maintain a clean environment, ensure effective operation of FSIs, and conduct regular inspections in accordance with regulations;

(ii) Regular Inspections: Inspect FSIs regularly during daily work and assist owners and owners' corporations (OCs) in timely handling of damaged or malfunctions of FSIs;

(iii) Supervision of Major Renovation Works: Ensure that FSI are functional with defects repaired before major renovation works begin. During major renovation works, increase inspection frequency, coordinate various work processes, and eliminate fire hazards arising during the renovation period; and

(iv) Fire Safety Awareness and Responsiveness: Enhance training for frontline property management staff and proactively promote fire safety to residents to improve overall awareness and emergency response capabilities.

Currently, FSD is actively promoting the "Fire Services Department Building Emergency Responder" training scheme, aiming to train 45,000 property management personnel, OC representatives, and residents within 2026 to help them identify and proactively report FSI abnormalities.

The Government has proposed legislative amendments to introduce the FSI "Responsible Persons" regime, explicitly incorporating property management companies (PMCs) into the statutory responsibility chain. January 2026 for Holders of Property Management Practitioner Licence and industry professionals titled "Fire Safety Compliance, Prevention and Response: Professional Role and Responsibilities of the Property Management Industry". The session covered the effective operation of FSIs, statutory requirement for fire safety compliance, preventive measures, and building emergency response arrangements.

On 23 and 24 February 2026, FSD held two sessions of "Fire Services Department Building Emergency Responder" training, which trained approximately 360 property management personnel.

The PMSA and HKAPMC further collaborated to organize a four-week training series comprising four sessions for property management personnel starting on 24 March 2026. The first session was completed on 24 March with approximately 2,200 participants;

Annex

Page 3 of 32 Improvement Measure Implementation Timeline Under this system, PMCs will become statutory fire safety gatekeepers, sharing responsibility with owners and OCs.

the second on 1 April with approximately 2,100 participants; the third on 8 April with approximately 1,800 participants; and the final session on 14 April with approximately 1,400 participants. These training sessions will be regularized in the future.

As of 27 May 2026, approximately 10,000 property management personnel have been qualified as "Fire Services Department Building Emergency Responder". 2. FSD Promotes voluntary fire alarm testing with stakeholders

FSD has earlier held in-depth discussions with the PMSA, HKAPMC, HA, HS, and REDA. To address public concerns regarding the performance of building fire alarms, these stakeholders—including the HA, HS, REDA, and the Association of Registered Fire Service Installation Contractors— have agreed to fully support and promote voluntary fire alarm testing to safeguard public safety.

The scope of the voluntary fire alarm testing includes:

(i) Checking that manual call points are intact and capable of activating the fire alarm system; Ongoing implementation since 4 December 2025 (FSD issued a press release on 16 December 2025)

Over 100 members of the HKAPMC have expressed support and will actively promote voluntary fire alarm testing in buildings under their management.

More than 6,000 property projects are expected to participate, covering residential, commercial, industrial, and composite buildings. Most participated buildings

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(ii) Ensuring stable power supply to FSIs and reliable operation of standby power supply; and

(iii) Verifying that signal transmitted from fire control panels are normal with no false alarms or failures.

are currently making arrangements with contractors for testing.

HA has completed voluntary fire alarm testing or regular inspections of FSIs for about 1,300 public rental housing blocks. HS has also carried out voluntary testing or regular FSI inspections for the majority of its managed residential projects. 3. FSD Strengthens inspections of building FSIs

FSD has redeployed internal resources to establish a dedicated task force to inspect buildings under major renovation works (where scaffolding and protective netting have been or are about to be erected, referred to as "scaffold-netted buildings"). During the inspections, functional testing of the fire alarm system and visual inspection of operation status of fire control panel will be conducted. Where any FSI in those buildings are found to be non-operational, the task force will ascertain whether appropriate additional fire safety measures have been put in place. Should any non-compliance be identified, FSD will take corresponding enforcement actions or make referrals to the relevant departments immediately, as appropriate.

In April 2026, FSD implemented a new monitoring system and administrative measures for shutdown of FSI. A referral mechanism was FSD completed inspections of 461 higher-risk buildings on 25 January 2026.

Irregularities to FSIs were identified in 48 buildings, leading to further investigations and enforcement. Fire Hazard Abatement Notices (FHANs) were issued for 63 FSIs where irregularities were identified, requiring responsible persons to take immediate remedial measures.

Among these, 45 FSIs have been restored, while 18 systems resulted in

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Page 5 of 32 Improvement Measure Implementation Timeline also established with the Buildings Department (BD), Architectural Services Department (ArchSD), Housing Department (HD), and the Independent Checking Unit of the Housing Bureau (ICU). Upon receiving the list of "scaffold-netted buildings" from these departments, FSD would conduct inspections. If major FSIs are found not to be in efficient working order, the relevant departments may consider issuing cease works order to registered contractors (RCs) until the FSIs are restored to an effective state, ensuring the protection of lives and property during the major renovation works. prosecution due to non-compliance of FHANs. 4. FSD Establishes quick response team to promptly follow up irregularities to FSIs in buildings

To promptly address irregularities to building FSIs identified at fire incidents, FSD has established a Quick Response Team (QRT) operating on a round-the-clock standby basis, with effect from 4 December 2025. Upon the occurrence of a building fire, the QRT will be deployed to attend in order to inspect the condition of FSIs and to take enforcement action where necessary. This work is currently ongoing.

As of 27 May 2026, the QRT has been deployed 647 times. 5. Sustained inspection and enforcement for commercial buildings with business activities

Special inspections and enforcement operations continue for commercial buildings with higher fire risks and with a higher number of licensed premises (such as restaurants). These actions aim to eliminate hazards such as wedged-open smoke stop doors, obstructed or locked means of escape, Since December 2025, a total of 266 commercial buildings have been inspected, resulting in the issuance of 503 FHANs and 102 prosecutions.

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Page 6 of 32 Improvement Measure Implementation Timeline accumulation of combustible materials, and FSIs not being kept in efficient working order. Responsible persons are required to take immediate remedial measures for any irregularities. FSD personnel conduct these inspections in plainclothes.

Noting instances of recidivism, FSD will continue its inspection and enforcement efforts, particularly during high-risk periods such as long holidays, to mitigate risks in commercial buildings with concentrated licensed premises. 6. Risk-based building FSI inspection programme

Subject to available resources, the “Risk-based Building FSI Inspection Programme” has been regularised to target higher-risk buildings— primarily those with residential parts built before 2002 and buildings undergoing major renovation works. The operation will involve inspections and functional testing of FSIs, with particular focus on the performance of fire alarm systems. If any FSIs are found not to be in efficient working order, FSD will require responsible persons to take immediate remedial measures and will take decisive enforcement actions. Phase 1 ("Operation Outpost"): Commenced on 19 January 2026, covering 1,500 higher-risk target buildings. Irregularities were identified in 267 buildings (resulting in 69 prosecutions and FHANs issued against 395 FSIs where irregularities were identified), with investigations and enforcement actions initiated and immediate remedial measures required from responsible persons.

Phase 2: Commenced in April 2026 with a target to inspect 5,000 buildings within two years. As of 27 May 2026, 272 target buildings have been inspected.

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Page 7 of 32 Improvement Measure Implementation Timeline 7. Joint inspection and enforcement operation against industrial buildings by FSD and BD

FSD and BD have launched joint inspection and enforcement operations targeting industrial buildings in the New Territories and Kowloon.

From 29 to 31 December 2025, FSD and BD conducted joint inspection and enforcement operations targeting industrial buildings.

The departments inspected 9 industrial buildings in the New Territories and Kowloon, identifying 261 irregularities.

FSD initiated 3 prosecutions for obstruction of means of escape, and 55 FHANs issued for other irregularities were complied with within the specified timeframe.

The next round of inspection and enforcement operations against industrial buildings is scheduled to commence in the Q3 of 2026. 8. Monitoring mechanism for shutdown of FSIs

Following the fire incident, FSD has issued two circular letters to strengthen warnings to residents during defects/shutdown of FSIs, enhance FSIs power supply management, and remind Registered Fire Service Installation Contractors (RFSICs) of their reporting duties and the

The relevant measures were introduced in January 2026.

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Page 8 of 32 Improvement Measure Implementation Timeline necessity to assess potential chain effects on other FSIs before shutting down any FSIs.

Simultaneously, FSD has redeployed internal resources to enhance the follow-up mechanism for FSI shutdowns. Each case is monitored by dedicated personnel, warning letters will be issued immediately to relevant owners, and RFSICs will be required to submit Certificates of Fire Service Installation and Equipment (FS251 certificates). To enhance supervision, upon receiving a major FSI shutdown notification, FSD personnel conduct on-site inspections within 24 hours and formulate contingency plans as needed; they also inspect critical components of FSIs including the main power switches, fire alarms, and water level of F.S. supply tanks. FSD reviews the necessity of every shutdown and continuously monitors repair progress to safeguard fire safety for residents. For shutdowns of major FSIs exceeding 60 days, FSD will issue FHANs to the owners, requiring completion of repairs by a specified deadline; failure to comply will result in further enforcement action.

In addition to the inspections, FSD also assists owners and residents in conducting fire drills and distributes disaster and emergency preparedness kits to residents in need. However, building fire safety ultimately depends on PMCs and contractors fulfilling their gatekeeping responsibilities. Therefore, amending the law to strengthen the legal liabilities of PMCs and contractors is a critical step in safeguarding public safety.

To enhance overall fire safety protection and avoid "protective gaps", the Government has proposed legislative amendments to upgrade the

The relevant measures were introduced in April 2026.

The Government launched a public consultation on the proposed amendments on 26 May 2026.

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Page 9 of 32 Improvement Measure Implementation Timeline regulatory regime of major FSI shutdowns, bringing it up from administrative “post-event notification” to statutory “pre-approval” checks. Specifically, RFSICs seeking to shut down major FSIs for a specified duration must apply for prior approval from FSD after obtaining authorization from the "Responsible Person". Relevant circular letters or Code of Practice will also be amended in due course. Following the consultation, the proposed amendments will be finalized as soon as possible, with the goal of submitting the relevant bill to the Legislative Council for scrutiny within this year. 9. Supervision mechanism for FS251 certificate

Currently, in addition to monitoring whether owners of FSIs arrange for annual inspections and ensure that equipment is kept in efficient working order at all times, FSD audits the work of contractors through various means. Based on risk assessments, FSD samples approximately 80,000 FS251 certificates annually (representing 27% of the average 300,000 certificates received each year) for document review (about 65,000 cases) or site inspection (about 15,000 cases). Functional tests are also conducted during some site inspections to ensure the professional quality and service standards of RFSICs.

Following the fire incident, FSD has upgraded the "Online Preparation and Submission System for Certificate of Fire Service Installation and Equipment". FSD issued a circular letter on 15 May 2026, notifying contractors the mandatory submission of FS251 certificates via a designated electronic platform with effect from 1 July 2026. This will facilitate more timely tracking of the inspection, defect, and maintenance status of FSIs by FSD, thereby enhancing the efficiency of subsequent emergency response and follow-up actions. A new version of FS 251

The upgraded online submission system officially launched on 18 May 2026, with mandatory electronic submission commencing on 1 July 2026.

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Page 10 of 32 Improvement Measure Implementation Timeline electronic certificate, embedded with an anti-counterfeiting QR code, will be introduced. Members of the public and relevant stakeholders may scan the QR code to verify the certificate information and confirm its authenticity.

Furthermore, the Government has proposed legislative amendments to require all FS251 certificates to be submitted via an electronic system designated by FSD and is exploring the possibility of proportionately shortening the submission timeframe.

The Government launched a public consultation on the proposed amendments on 26 May 2026. Following the consultation, the proposed amendments will be finalized as soon as possible, with the goal of submitting the relevant bill to the Legislative Council for scrutiny within this year. 10. Amending existing fire safety legislation to enhance fire safety governance capabilities Two stakeholder briefings were held in April, followed by consultation with the Legislative Council Panel on Security in May.

A one-month public consultation was launched in late May.

The Security Bureau aims to submit the bill to the Legislative Council for first reading in December 2026.

(i) Strengthening the regulatory regime for FSIs. It is proposed to introduce a pre-approval mechanism for the major FSI shutdown, bringing it up from administrative “post-event notification” to statutory “pre-approval” checks. Additionally, a new offence for interfering with FSI will be introduced, along with a mandatory notification mechanism requiring major FSI defects to be reported within 24 hours. These measures will allow FSD to stay informed about building fire safety levels and effectively mitigate various risks.

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Page 11 of 32 Improvement Measure Implementation Timeline (ii) Introducing the FSI "Responsible Persons" regime. PMCs will be explicitly incorporated into the statutory responsibility chain alongside owners or occupiers. This institutionalises the role of PMCs as a statutory fire safety controller, sharing joint responsibility with the owners and OCs to strengthen daily management and preventive measures. Furthermore, Responsible Persons must arrange fire alarm inspections every six months, provide additional fire safety measures during FSI shutdowns or defects, and display Annual Inspection Certificates. It is also proposed to elevate PMCs' duties of conducting annual fire drills and carrying out regular patrol of means of escape into statutory requirements. (iii) Reforming the RFSIC registration and disciplinary regime. Proposals include replacing the permanent registration of RFSICs with a five-year renewal system and subject to "fit and proper" assessments. Requirements of academic and continuous professional development for qualified persons (QPs) will be enhanced, and a new Registered Fire Service Installation Technician (RFSIT) qualification system will be introduced to elevate the professional status of frontline technicians. By codifying the duties of QPs and RFSITs, every FSI work must be verified to meet professional standards. The Disciplinary Board’s powers will be expanded to include imposing fines and demerit points, providing more flexible disciplinary sanctions. Furthermore, we propose requiring all FS251 certificates to be submitted via an electronic system designated by FSD. We will also explore the possibility of proportionately shortening the submission timeframe.

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Page 12 of 32 Improvement Measure Implementation Timeline (iv) Enhancing penalties and criminal accountability. It is proposed to substantially increase penalties for various offences. For instance, the maximum penalty for issuing false certificates will be raised from $50,000 to $3,000,000 and three years’ imprisonment. Management criminal liability provisions will also be introduced: if an offence is proved to be committed with the consent, connivance, neglect or omission of a director or other officer concerned in the management of the company, QPs or authorised signatories, that person shall be guilty of the like offence. (v) Introducing a fixed penalty regime and streamlining the fire hazards abatement workflow. A fixed penalty regime will be introduced for offences that are straightforward to verify and involve clear-cut liability. Additionally, it is proposed to empower FSD to immediately abate fire hazards posing imminent or significant risks—regardless of whether direct prosecution has been initiated or a fixed penalty notice has been issued— and to recover the costs from relevant parties to more rapidly safeguard residents. (vi) Enhancing FSD’s Enforcement Powers. To tackle complex cases such as the issuance of false FS251 certificates, we will refine FSD’s power of investigation when entering premises, and propose granting authorized FSD officers arrest power under specified circumstances. 11. Optimising the cooperation mechanism between FSD and Other Departments

The relevant work is ongoing.

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Page 13 of 32 Improvement Measure Implementation Timeline Building on the existing "three-tier framework"—comprising legislation, codes of practice and standards, as well as inter-departmental communication—FSD has enhanced its coordination mechanism to strengthen cross-departmental collaboration and close regulatory gaps.

Regarding the handling of complaints and enquiries, FSD has further improved its case referral handling mechanism. For fire safety cases involving matters within the professional purview of other government departments, FSD will, with the complainant’s/enquirer's consent, proactively refer the case to the most appropriate department. FSD will confirm that the referral has been taken over by the relevant department until completion. Should a department contest a referral, the case will be escalated to the Assistant Director or even Deputy Director level for inter- departmental coordination, with follow-up work executed based on the outcome. This measure strengthens the overall monitoring of complaints and enquiries to better address public expectations regarding fire safety.

BD has issued a fire safety guideline pamphlet for major renovation works, with FSD’s specialized advice on firefighting and rescue operations, dangerous goods handling, and FSIs incorporated.

FSD announced the optimised case referral and handling mechanism in April 2026. 12. Review of firefighting and rescue operations

(i) Operational Strategies for Mega-scale Fire Incidents

Through the Mega-scale Fire Incidents Strategic Steering Committee, FSD is conducting a comprehensive review of the following five areas:

The Committee has held multiple meetings since January 2026.

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(a) Mobilisation;

(b) Firefighting and search and rescue strategies;

(c) Personal gear, fire appliances, and equipment;

(d) Application of technology; and

(e) Cross-boundary cooperation and coordination mechanisms. (ii) Emergency Communications and Mobilisation

Regarding mobilisation, FSD plans to increase the number of emergency telephone lines at Fire Services Communications Centre (FSCC) to significantly reduce waiting times for callers.

Furthermore, FSD will actively work with the Police to refine information exchange mechanisms, enhancing the efficiency of both departments in handling emergency calls.

FSD added 18 and 20 additional telephone lines in April and June 2026 respectively, bringing the total number of available lines to 68. (iii) Firefighting and Rescue Contingency Plans and Evacuation Strategies (Operational Deployment for Buildings Undergoing Major Renovations)

FSD has implemented a series of enhanced measures targeting buildings undergoing major renovations: First, conducting proactive, targeted inspections based on lists of "scaffold-netted buildings" regularly updated

FSD implemented these measures on 1 May 2026.

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Page 15 of 32 Improvement Measure Implementation Timeline by BD, ArchSD, HD, and ICU, and formulating building-specific contingency plans; second, immediately dispatching additional fire service resources for any fire incidents involving "scaffold-netted buildings"; and third, if adjacent buildings are also found to be "scaffold-netted," two additional fire appliances will be deployed specifically to monitor fire spread and, if necessary, initiate early evacuation to enhance risk control and safeguard residents. (iv) Emergency Alert System (EAS)

The Government has upgraded the EAS to allow bureaux and departments to send alerts to individual or multiple districts among the 18 districts. For wide-spread fires requiring the immediate evacuation of residents within a district, the Security Bureau and FSD are refining internal guidelines for activating the EAS. Meanwhile, the Government is also formulating pre- set messages applicable to fires and other specific emergency situations.

Relevant details are currently being finalized. B. Construction safety requirements, standards, supervision and day-to-day maintenance regime for the building maintenance and renovation works, and the roles and responsibilities of personnel with supervisory roles across all stages (including government officers, authorised professionals, contractors and others) 1. In the past, the risk-based site inspection arrangements for site inspections adopted by BD focused primarily on new building works. Building repair works are classified as minor works, given their nature, scale, complexity and long-term structural safety risks are relatively low. The general practice in the past was to conduct on-site inspections when irregularities were identified during random checks of documents submitted by BD has stepped up inspections since December 2025.

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Page 16 of 32 Improvement Measure Implementation Timeline contractors upon completion of works, or in response to reports/submissions.

Since December last year, BD has stepped up inspections of sites of large- scale building repair works, carrying out surprise inspections at least once every six months (i.e. without prior notice) to check whether sites have adequate fire resisting construction, whether fire barriers (including fire rated doors and fire rated fixed lights) have been removed, and whether combustible materials (such as foam boards) have been installed on windows, etc. 2. In early 2025, the Development Bureau (DEVB) conducted a public consultation on proposed amendments to the Buildings Ordinance. Proposals put forward at that time included increasing penalties for registered building professionals or registered contractors contravening relevant regulations. The maximum penalty is recommended to be raised from currently $1 million to $10 million if the works they were directly involved in have caused serious cases of injury or death. In addition, DEVB proposed strengthening the registration and disciplinary systems for contractors, including allowing the Disciplinary Board to impose more than one sanction (in addition to increasing the fine from currently $250,000 to $400,000, the Disciplinary Board may also consider ordering a reprimand and/or removing the contractor from the register) to enhance deterrence.

In light of the Tai Po fire incident, DEVB and BD are further reviewing the Buildings Ordinance along the following directions: It is planned to table the amendment legislation at the Legislative Council for scrutiny in December 2026, following a review of the earlier proposals.

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Page 17 of 32 Improvement Measure Implementation Timeline (i) Enhancing regulation of works: it is proposed to upgrade large-scale building repairs works that are normally Class II minor works under the existing regime, such that the regulation and penalty will be more stringent, including supervision of works by third-party professionals and submission of prescribed plans and supervision plans before commencement of works;

(ii) Enhancing regulation of temporary precautionary measures and fire safety protective measures: amending the Building (Construction) Regulation to empower the Building Authority to prescribe requirements for temporary precautionary measures and fire safety protective measures for large-scale building repair works;

(iii) Clarifying the duties of building inspection and works supervision: reviewing the duties of building inspection and works supervision under existing large-scale repair works for clarifying duties and breaking the chain of interests;

(iv) Strengthening regulation of registered building professionals and contractors: further strengthening the regulation of both parties based on the original proposals, including strengthening the causes for disciplinary actions and factors for considering registration renewal;

(v) Enhancing regulation of specified building materials: it is proposed to add provisions stipulating the requirement to comply with the safety standards of specified building materials to be specified by the Building Authority,

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Page 18 of 32 Improvement Measure Implementation Timeline and empowering the Building Authority to impose direct sanctions and raise penalty for non-compliance; and (vi) Empowering the Building Authority to prescribe safety building distances and requirements for large-scale repair works: subject to findings of the study conducted jointly by FSD and BD, prescribing requirements regarding the safety distance for buildings requiring erection of scaffolding for undergoing large-scale repair works.

ICU of the Housing Bureau has since December last year stepped up inspections on buildings with large-scale renovation works in progress under its purview, including five courts under the Home Ownership Scheme and estates under the Tenants Purchase Scheme, involving a total of 29 buildings. As of May 2026, ICU has conducted a total of 245 inspections on the aforesaid courts/estates, including 225 inspections on scaffolding and 20 surprise inspections on whether sufficient fire resisting construction was provided on site, whether fire barriers (including fire rated doors and fire rated fixed light) had been removed, whether any combustible materials (such as foam boards) had been affixed to the windows, etc. If any irregularities (e.g. scaffolding structures erected in escape staircases and debris obstructing fire escapes) are uncovered, ICU will immediately issue warnings for rectification and request follow-up by relevant registered building professionals/RCs. ICU will also report the non-compliant behaviours of the relevant persons to the BD and recommend for its consideration of disciplinary actions and/or prosecution as appropriate. Since December 2025, ICU has stepped up inspections and progressively implemented various improvement measures:

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ICU has actively taken forward a series of reform. In particular, it has implemented an array of improvement measures in respect of the monitoring and workflow of large-scale renovation works related to the Mandatory Building Inspection Scheme (MBIS), including - (i) Project-based integrated control for courts with large-scale renovation in progress

ICU will conduct holistic risk assessments taking into account various minor works conducted in the same court concurrently, and formulate inspection/random check plans during the course of the works based on the risk levels. It will, through internal meetings across teams chaired by its directorate staff, regularly review such risk assessments and inspection/random check plans. (i) Since May 2026. (ii) Stepping up inspections, reviews and random checks in a multi-pronged manner

(a) Introducing regular inspections: ICU has already set the frequency of site inspection at least once every four months (while BD’s current required frequency is once every six months), and will step up its inspection efforts having regard to actual circumstances on site.

(b) Strengthening monitoring against non-compliances or irregularities: ICU has enhanced its inspection arrangements and will not notify/make appointment with registered inspectors (RIs)/RCs in advance. Even if

(ii)(a) Since December 2025.

(ii)(b) Since December 2025.

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Page 20 of 32 Improvement Measure Implementation Timeline the circumstances of an individual case warrant an advance notice, ICU will shorten the notice period and will not reveal the details of the inspection.

(c) ICU has introduced a new mechanism for its Audit Fundamental Check for minor works, under which another team would be responsible for audit reviews and would conduct site inspections targeting minor works with higher risks (such as those concerning alterations to fire escapes and escape staircases). For works site of Class I minor works with supervision plans, ICU would also increase the percentage of random checks to 30% (while BD’s current required percentage of random checks is 20%).

(ii)(c) Since May 2026. (iii)

Leveraging technology to combat falsification

When conducting random checks on site, ICU staff will make use of technology to randomly select details to be inspected (such as buildings or locations for sampling scaffolding nets) on the spot. ICU is also optimising its computer systems to introduce more random check tools, so as to combat possible falsifications; (iii) Since May 2026. (iv) Stepping up monitoring of RIs and RCs

ICU mandates submission of supervision proposals by RIs, steps up random checks on their site inspection records, as well as regularly meets with the RIs in person as well as the RCs to follow up on the works progress and details. ICU would also report RIs and RCs with unsatisfactory (iv) Since April 2026.

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Page 21 of 32 Improvement Measure Implementation Timeline performance to law enforcement agencies for their disciplinary actions and/or prosecution; (v) Standardising practice to reduce safety risks

In accordance with BD’s latest circular which serves as a reminder to the trade, ICU requests that RIs and RCs conduct safety risk assessments before commencement of works, suitably plan and formulate the details of the works, refrain from affixing combustible materials (such as foam boards) to external walls and windows of buildings, as well as ensure the accessibility and proper functioning of means of escapes throughout the course of the works, etc. ICU also requests, in addition to the requirements in the said circular, that for large-scale renovation works of a court involving more than one building, all repair of external walls must be carried out in phases, so as to reduce the risk of fire spreading in case of a fire. (v) Since April 2026. (vi) Stepping up regulation of scaffolding nets

ICU, in accordance with BD’s Practice Note for Registered Contractors 85 (PNRC 85), requests that RCs conduct sampling and testing on scaffolding nets in specified ways. It will also use computer systems to randomly select individual items already installed for random check on site; and (vi) Since December 2025, after BD promulgated the Practice Note. (vii)

Stepping up inter-departmental collaboration

(vii)(a) Since the first quarter of 2026.

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Page 22 of 32 Improvement Measure Implementation Timeline (a) ICU has stepped up liaison with BD and increased the frequency of meetings amongst different teams (including the MBIS Team, the Minor Works Team and the Site Monitoring Team), so as to expedite and ensure an effective exchange of information.

(b) As buildings with large-scale renovation in progress involve relatively higher risks, Head and directorate staff of ICU will proactively step up communication and collaboration with relevant departments in enforcement and operation, including reflecting ICU’s observations in handling different cases to BD, and taking the initiative to convene inter-departmental meetings to discuss how best to handle individual cases with relevant departments.

(c) ICU has requested BD to arrange more experiential sharing and training on building control matters for ICU staff.

(d) ICU will step up publicity and education for PMCs and residents regarding the information and requirements of individual items, and encourage them to report inappropriate behaviours of various construction staff, with a view to monitoring and detecting non- compliances through more means and channels.

(e) ICU has established a two-way reporting mechanism with the Fire Services Department for regular exchange of information on buildings with large-scale renovation, so as to assess the fire safety risks of such buildings and follow up suitably.

(vii)(b) Since the third quarter of 2026.

(vii)(c) Since the third quarter of 2026.

(vii)(d) Since the third quarter of 2026.

(vii)(e) Since the second quarter of 2026.

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Page 23 of 32 Improvement Measure Implementation Timeline (f) ICU is exploring with the Labour Department the establishment of a mechanism for regular exchange of information of buildings with large- scale renovation in progress to facilitate follow-up. (vii)(f) Since the third quarter of 2026. C. The prevailing list of materials meeting safety standards and the related verification and testing systems for the building maintenance and renovation works, and the roles and responsibilities of personnel with supervisory roles across all stages (including government officers, authorised professionals, contractors and others)

BD issued a practice note (i.e. PNRC 85) to RCs on 19 December to implement the new mechanism for sampling and testing of scaffolding nets in Hong Kong. In addition to scaffolding nets used in building repair works, the new mechanism also applies to those used in new building works. The new mechanism comprises three components: (1) RCs should provide fire retardant performance test reports of scaffolding nets; (2) RCs should conduct sampling of each lot of scaffolding nets in the specified manner for testing. Tests should be conducted by accredited laboratories designated by the Government. If any sample of a lot fails to meet the standards, the entire lot must not be used. Only when all the samples have met the standards can the lot be installed on scaffolding; (3) registered contractors may commence works after installing the nets that have passed the tests on scaffolding, and they should notify BD. BD will randomly select individual projects with scaffolding nets installed for site audit on each elevation. If a sample from an individual elevation fails to meet the standards, it means that the scaffolding nets on the entire elevation are non- The new mechanism was announced on 11 December 2025, and the practice note was issued on 19 December 2025.

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Page 24 of 32 Improvement Measure Implementation Timeline compliant with the recognised standards and should be removed in entirety. BD will allow flexibility for new buildings considering that they are yet to be occupied or in use and that the risk is of a relatively lower level. Contractors may choose to first install the scaffolding nets before conducting sampling and testing, so as to avoid affecting the progress of works.

Taking into account the space constraint of some building repair works sites or construction sites of new buildings, BD allows on-site or off-site sampling. Contractors are required to establish a tracking system to the satisfaction of BD so as to ensure that the scaffolding nets eventually installed are from the lots that have passed laboratory testing. D. The communication mechanism between BD and ICU 1. Suggestions for strengthening the communication mechanism between BD and ICU include the following: BD has strengthened suggestion item (ii) since early 2026 and will discuss with ICU on the implementation details in other items. (i) Rationalising the current consultation mechanism so that all consultations (including verbal consultations) require endorsement by a directorate-level officer from BD and be recorded in a designated database for reference by ICU staff; enhancing training to ensure that ICU staff can participate in relevant courses and experience-sharing sessions; (ii) Increasing the frequency of regular working-level liaison meetings from an annual basis to a quarterly basis to discuss annual enforcement targets, enforcement and implementation details, as well as specific cases, so as to ensure consistency between the practices of ICU and BD;

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Page 25 of 32 Improvement Measure Implementation Timeline (iii) Expanding the content of the bi-annual reports submitted by ICU to BD to include the handling of specific cases, the review of communication mechanisms and training matters as standing agenda items; and (iv) Establishing a mutual secondment mechanism between BD and ICU to enhance mutual understanding of each other’s standard practices and culture. E. Construction site safety 1. To further reduce fire risk and enhance construction site safety, the Labour Department (LD) is expeditiously seeking to amend the relevant legislations, proposing to designate “construction site” as a statutory no smoking area in order to prohibit any person from smoking at construction sites and to impose clear legal obligations on principal contractors and sub- contractors, requiring them to take all reasonable steps to enforce the smoking ban at construction sites, for implementing a smoking ban at construction sites with a view to enhancing the site safety standard.

The amended legislations will explicitly specify that smoking by any person is prohibited at construction sites. Upon the enactment of the amended legislations, LD’s frontline staff will be empowered to issue a fixed penalty notice to or initiate a prosecution against a person who is found smoking at a construction site. The relevant proposed legislative amendments were introduced into the Legislative Council in May 2026.

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Page 26 of 32 Improvement Measure Implementation Timeline Besides, LD is now exploring the use of innovation technology to assist its law enforcement work, including the use of small unmanned aircraft to conduct remote surveillance for detecting smoking activities at construction sites. 2. LD is now revising the Codes of Practice for Scaffolding Safety to explicitly require that all protective screens (including protective nets, tarpaulin, plastic sheeting and canvas) installed on scaffolds should have appropriate fire retardant properties, and be in compliance with a recognised standard as well as the relevant requirements of PNRC 85 issued by BD, so as to ensure that protective materials fulfil the required fire retardant standard; and to specify the material requirements for toe- boards, ensuing that their strength is adequate for preventing fall of person and materials, while not increasing the risk of fire. Consultation work has started on 28 May 2026, and the revision of the relevant Codes of Practice is expected to complete in Q3 this year. 3. LD has launched a special inspection and enforcement operation, targeting toe-boards installed on scaffolds to ensure that toe-boards used by contractors are in compliance with the provisions in the Construction Sites (Safety) Regulations and the Codes of Practice on scaffolding safety. The relevant special inspection and enforcement operation commenced on 9 January 2026. As at 28 May 2026, LD inspected 1,411 construction sites with scaffolding erected, with 436 improvement notices issued and 33 prosecutions initiated. 4. LD has enhanced inter-departmental collaboration to improve site safety of large-scale building maintenance works, including:

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Page 27 of 32 Improvement Measure Implementation Timeline (i) Joining an inter-departmental working group with BD and FSD to study the requirements regarding the safety distance for buildings for requiring erection of scaffolding for undergoing large-scale repair works (please refer to Item 2(vi) of Part B for details); (i) The relevant work has started in April 2026.

(ii) Deploying staff members to support BD in taking samples of scaffolding protective nets (please refer to Item 1 of Part C for details); (ii) The relevant work has been implemented, starting from January 2026 onwards. (iii) Establishing a regular notification mechanism with BD whereby BD would forward the following building lists to LD at bi-weekly intervals to facilitate its timely safety inspections at the relevant buildings:

(a) list of buildings with Notification Form of completion of scaffolding or change of scaffolding protective materials under PNRC 85; and

(b) list of buildings issued with statutory notices of BD under the MBIS requiring prescribed repair after inspection. (iii) The relevant mechanism has been implemented since April 2026. 5. In response to the circular letter issued by BD to the industry on 16 March 2026 in respect of the fire safety precautionary measures to be taken for the large scale building repair work (including that any access opening in escape staircases should be protected by a temporary fire barrier with a fire rating property equivalent to that of the original provision), LD’s frontline staff has been asked to refer any non-conformity with BD’s requirements Effective since 17 March 2026.

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Page 28 of 32 Improvement Measure Implementation Timeline on means of escape detected during site inspections to BD and FSD for follow-up. Frontline officers of LD would be regularly reminded of the relevant requirements and arrangements. 6. LD is reviewing and further enhancing its internal mechanism for handling occupational safety and health complaints, with the aim of ensuring that its frontline staff can handle the persistent complaints more effectively and refer appropriate cases to relevant departments to follow up. The revision of the relevant internal guidelines is in progress and the new guidelines are expected to be put into effect in Q3 of 2026. F. Systemic issues relating to undue connected interests, conflicts of roles, improper collusion etc. in large-scale building maintenance and renovation works 1. DEVB, in collaboration with the Urban Renewal Authority (URA), is preparing to launch an enhanced version of “Smart Tender” to assist OCs and owners in engaging consultants and contractors from the “pre-qualified lists” to be established in future to properly carry out building repair works. To this end, we have allocated a total of $300 million to URA, and the relevant commitment has been approved in the recently passed Budget.

The enhanced version of “Smart Tender” includes (i) launching more rigorous “pre-qualified lists” of consultants and contractors. In addition to considering criminal and disciplinary records alongside past performance, consultants and contractors must pass background checks by the Hong Kong Police Force and the Independent Commission Against Corruption before they can be included in the lists and are eligible to participate in tendering, (ii) URA will oversee the tendering and tender evaluation processes for owners to engage consultants and contractors, and (iii) for The plan is to report proposed detailed arrangements to the Panel on Development of the Legislative Council in the middle of this year, so as to strive for rolling out the enhanced version of “Smart Tender” in the fourth quarter of this year.

Annex

Page 29 of 32 Improvement Measure Implementation Timeline buildings applying for government maintenance subsidies, after commencement of works, URA will require consultants and contractors to report to URA at critical project junctures, so that URA may offer independent advice to owners.

In addition, DEVB is reviewing how to strengthen oversight of the performance of inspection consultants, supervision consultants, and contractors through legislative and administrative measures. 2. On the front of building management, the Home and Youth Affairs Bureau is taking forward the next phase of amendments to the Building Management Ordinance (Cap. 344). The five proposed amendment directions cover:

(a) raising the quorum and voting thresholds for decisions on large-scale maintenance works and high-value procurement;

(b) enhancing the handling of proxy instruments;

(c) enhancing the declaration of interests mechanism;

(d) clarifying meeting procedures; and

(e) enhancing the powers of the Authority.

The Government consulted the Legislative Council Panel on Home Affairs, Culture and Sports on the proposed amendments in February 2026 and has commenced consultations with the property management sector. It also plans to conduct a public consultation on the amendment proposals in mid-2026, which will include collecting district views through the Working Groups on Building Management under the District Councils. The Government will then will strive to submit the amendment bill to the Legislative Council for scrutiny as soon as practicable, with a view to further strengthening the legal framework.

Annex

Page 30 of 32 Improvement Measure Implementation Timeline G. Other improvement measures

DEVB attaches great importance to the regulation of material quality in construction works. In addition to focusing on scaffolding nets at external walls, DEVB, in collaboration with BD, will review the existing testing mechanism for the specification of construction materials. Given the wide variety of materials involved in construction projects, DEVB and BD will adopt a risk-based approach and set priorities in examining the current mechanism to identify whether the regulatory requirements for certain categories of materials need to be further strengthened, for example through enhanced certification, inspections, on-site sampling and testing, etc. DEVB and BD commenced the review in January 2026, and the work is currently underway. The relevant practice notes and contract specifications will be updated at suitable juncture, taking into account the findings of the review.

DEVB and the Construction Industry Council started the discussion with the industry on the roadmap to switch from bamboo scaffolding to metal scaffolding where appropriate, based on the needs of different work scenario. The main tasks mentioned above include identifying the work scenarios in new building construction and large-scale building repair projects which metal scaffolding could be used (considering factors such as the sufficiency of space or structural capacity), and developing a roadmap for projects that meet these scenarios to switch to metal scaffolding. Factors to be considered include: (i) the capability of bamboo scaffolders and bamboo scaffolding specialized contractors to withstand the transition and assisting them in a smooth transition; (ii) a stable and sufficient supply of metal DEVB has started the discussion on the arrangement and the roadmap with the industry in December 2025, hoping to reach a consensus as soon as possible.

Annex

Page 31 of 32 Improvement Measure Implementation Timeline scaffolding; and (iii) the transportation and storage arrangements for metal scaffolding. 3. The Construction Industry Council is currently reviewing the practices / operations of the large-scale building maintenance industry (including its subcontracting system). The objective is to review and enhance the conduct and integrity of the sector, as well as to strengthen safety awareness and training for both management personnel and frontline workers. The Construction Industry Council is formulating a set of Good Practice Guidelines for large-scale building maintenance industry, which will include recommendations on the subcontracting of such works to promote the healthy development of the construction industry. It is expected that the Construction Industry Council will promulgate the Good Practice Guidelines within this year. 4. In terms of competition policy, the Competition Commission (Commission) has completed preparing an enhanced version of the Non- Collusion Clauses (NCC) for procurers to incorporate into their tender documents and procurement contracts, in order to further prevent collusive conduct including bid-rigging. The enhanced NCC includes adding a clause to explicitly state that violating the NCC may constitute a criminal offence, as well as introducing additional terms requiring bidders to make a Statutory Declaration affirming the warranties within the NCC, so as to increase deterrent effect. The implementation of relevant measures does not involve legislative amendments.

Moreover, the Commerce and Economic Development Bureau is working closely with the Commission to review the Competition Ordinance (Ordinance) from multiple perspectives and consider the need for The Commission expects to launch the enhanced NCC in June.

We will finalise the recommendations for amending the Ordinance after considering the IC’s views.

Annex

Page 32 of 32 Improvement Measure Implementation Timeline legislative amendments, taking into account the implementation of the Ordinance to date and the experiences of other jurisdictions, with a view to strengthening deterrence against anti-competitive conduct.

FD06240 | 2025_港澳台_香港宏福苑大火_Transcript-(Chinese)_20260205.pdf

分类:06_境外及港澳台调查报告 | 年份:2025 | 地域:香港 | 严重程度: | 场所: | 起火原因: | 来源格式:pdf

1 本謄本由 Epiq 編製,於指示會議中使用的英文詞句由獨立委員會秘書處補充。

就大埔宏福苑火災成立的獨立委員會

指示會議

高等法院原訟法庭陸啟康法官 陳健波議員 歐陽伯權博士

日期: 2026 年2 月5 日

杜淦堃資深大律師、李澍桓大律師、俞匡庭大律師、李俊軒大律師、張天 風大律師及馮天榮大律師代表獨立委員會

何卓衡大律師代表置邦興業有限公司

孫靖乾資深大律師、陸栩然大律師及劉逸冲大律師代表政府

呂世杰資深大律師及阮文躍大律師代表市區重建局

劉日成大律師代表黃俠然先生

律政司代表

競爭事務委員會代表

廉政公署代表

2 本謄本由 Epiq 編製,於指示會議中使用的英文詞句由獨立委員會秘書處補充。

1

2

3 以下內容乃指示會議數碼錄音謄本 4

5 10 時00 分指示會議開始 6

7 陸啟康法官:今日係我哋調查大埔宏福苑火災獨立委員會嘅指示會議。咁喺開始之前,我們 8 想爲我哋喺今次火災入面嘅死難者,係默哀一分鐘,請大家起立。 9 工作人員:默哀完畢,請就坐。 10 陸啟康法官:喺去年11 月26 號,喺大埔宏福苑發生咗一場,奪去咗168 名生命嘅致命火 11 災。火災之後,行政長官喺12 月2 日宣佈,成立一個由法官主持嘅獨立委員會, 12 審視宏福苑火災嘅起火同埋迅速蔓延嘅原因,同埋相關嘅問題。喺12 月12 號,行 13 政長官委任咗我出任獨立委員會嘅主席,成員係包括:陳健波先生同埋歐陽伯權先 14 生。 15 行政長官亦都爲我哋訂立咗呢個獨立委員會,訂立咗我哋職權嘅範圍,咁大家 16 可以從呢一個嘅,睇得到我哋嘅職權範圍主要嚟講係有四點: 17 第(1),就係就大埔宏福苑嘅起火,火勢迅速蔓延同埋造成人命傷亡,同埋財 18 產損毀。關於呢方面,我哋需要審視成因同埋導致火災發生嘅情由。大廈配置嘅消 19 防裝置同埋設備,及佢有效運作嘅監督同埋責任嘅問題;有關嘅樓宇維修工程嘅施 20 工安全要求、標準、監督同埋日常維護制度是否足夠;針對樓宇維修工程,現行安 21 全標準嘅用料清單是否全面,有關嘅驗證同埋檢測制度是否有效;各環節嘅監管人 22 員(包括政府部門人員、授權負責的專業人士及承建商)嘅角色同埋責任嘅承擔; 23 同埋上述問題嘅相關責任。 24 而第(2)個職權範圍就係針對大型樓宇維修工程,係審視有關工程各個環節有 25 否不適當的相連利益、角色衝突、不當的合謀、串連等嘅系統性問題;及有關工程 26 有否涉貪圍標,違規招標呢個問題。 27 第(3)就係就上述兩項嘅事宜,係檢視現行相關法律的規管及懲罰是否足夠。 28 而第四就係就上述(1)至(3)嘅事宜係提出建議。咁所以大家都可以睇得 29 到,其實我哋主要嘅調查係有兩個大嘅範圍,就係我哋職權範圍嘅第一點,就係就 30 呢個宏福苑嘅火災嘅原因同埋嗰個嘅蔓延,同埋造成傷亡相關嘅問題。而第二就睇 31 到第(2)個職權範圍就係關於大型嘅樓宇維修有冇一啲嘅問題,包括係圍標咁。而 32 第(3)同第(4)項只係圍繞住第(1)同埋第(2)項嗰個嘅職權範圍,要作出- 33 -睇下呢啲嘅法律監管是否足夠,同埋係提出建議。所以我哋嘅調查方向主要係有兩 34 大方面嘅。 35 咁亦都喺我哋職權嘅範圍注(1),第一個係寫咗關於2025 年11 月26 日嗰 36 個火災發生嘅所涉人士嘅法律責任等嘅事宜,我哋係會交由執法部門進行調查,呢 37 個係不屬於委員會的職權範圍。而注(2),如果喺審視工作嘅過程之中,獨立委員 38

3 本謄本由 Epiq 編製,於指示會議中使用的英文詞句由獨立委員會秘書處補充。

會就特定嘅議題或個別環節,認為有需要獲賦予《調查委員會條例》(香港法例第 1 86 章)下成立的調查委員會相同的法定權力進行調查嘅話,獨立委員會可以向行政 2 長官提出建議。行政長官會同行政會議經考慮後可以決定係根據《調查委員會條 3 例》就該個議題或者環節的相關嘅事宜,畀獨立委員會--讓呢個獨立委員會成為法 4 定嘅調查委員會,行使相關嘅權力。 5 咁喺委任之後,委員會已經全速進行籌備嘅調查工作,包括籌辦我哋喺灣仔入 6 境事務大樓嘅辦公室,委任咗我哋律師、委員會嘅律師團隊,包括就係我哋今次委 7 員會的律師羅文錦律師事務所。喺度值得一提嘅,就係羅文錦律師事務所喺過往幾 8 個重要嘅調查委員會都係擔任委員會嘅律師嘅。 9 我哋都係委任大律師嘅團隊,先後係包括杜淦堃資深大律師、李澍桓大律師、 10 俞匡庭大律師、李俊軒大律師、張天風大律師,同埋馮天榮大律師。委員會喺12 11 月19 日進行咗我哋第一次嘅會議,並且喺12 月23 號到宏福苑嘅火災現場視察, 12 瞭解實際嘅情況。委員會嘅律師團隊亦都係發信畀各個涉事嘅政府部門、團體同埋 13 個別人士,知會佢哋我哋委員會今次嘅調查,同埋要求佢哋向委員會提供我哋所需 14 要嘅資料同埋文件。 15 當然,因爲今次嘅調查範圍非常之廣泛,問題亦都係非常之複雜,有關嘅部 16 門、團體同埋個人都需要一定嘅時間向委員會提供文件。委員會都已經陸續收到佢 17 哋所提供嘅文件同埋資料,並且進行詳細嘅分析。委員會亦都喺1 月15 號到兩個 18 分別係使用竹棚同埋金屬棚架嘅地盤視察,瞭解兩種棚架嘅分別同埋使用情況。 19 係呢度我哋都想解釋下委員會調查嘅性質。我哋每一次有重大事故嘅時候,政 20 府都係有可能會成立委員會去進行公衆調查,英文我哋叫做“ public 21 enquiry”。主要嘅有兩種嘅形式,第一種就係根據香港法例(第86 章)成立嘅 22 法定調查委員會,呢個法定調查委員係會有法定嘅權力,包括傳召證人嘅權力,同 23 埋要求受查人士提供文件嘅權力。但係呢個條例亦都定明,所有嘅調查程序都係法 24 律嘅程序,證人作供要宣誓啦。雖然佢哋嘅權力係比較大,但係因爲法律程序,各 25 方都可以提出好多法律上嘅爭議或者程序上嘅爭議,或者問題,從而令到嗰個程序 26 係會比較長。以我哋嘅經驗,如果係我哋今次類似嘅調查,可能需要演練去完成呢 27 個調查。 28 另外一種,就係我哋唔係根據法例成立嘅獨立委員會,其實即係都係兩種委員 29 會,只係一種係法定,一種唔係法定。咁但係爲咗清楚界別兩種,我們通常都會話 30 唔係法定嘅成立就叫做獨立委員會。而今次我哋亦都係用呢種方式去進行調查嘅。 31 當然呢個獨立委員會係冇呢個法定嘅權力,但因爲個程序唔係法律程序,所以處理 32 係比較靈活。因爲今次調查嘅範圍廣泛啦,事情亦都比較複雜,所以行政長官係決 33 定用呢一個嘅調查方式。但係行政長官亦都表明如果有需要嘅話,委員會係覺得有- 34 -需要呢個法定嘅權力,委員會係可以向行政長官提出建議,行政長官喺同呢個行政 35 會議經考慮之後,係可以根據法例就某些議題或環節同相關事宜,讓呢個獨立嘅委 36 員會成爲法定嘅調查委員會行使相關嘅權力。 37 今次嘅事故係非常之嚴重,公衆對調查工作儘快完成同埋得出結果有非常之高 38

4 本謄本由 Epiq 編製,於指示會議中使用的英文詞句由獨立委員會秘書處補充。

嘅期望。所以我哋委員會都認爲應該做--可以喺今次呢個調查使用呢個嶄新嘅方式 1 嘗試。但是我哋現階段唔排除任何嘅可能性,而家喺我哋搜集文件嘅期間,如果我 2 哋遇到一啲問題係解決唔到嘅話,我們係保留向行政長官要求成立呢個法定調查委 3 員會,繼續我哋嘅工作。但係即使我哋唔係一個法定調查,所有嘅呢啲公衆調查都 4 根據《普通法》嘅法律原則,需要遵守一啲嘅原則嘅,以下有四點: 5 第一,無論呢個係法定或者唔法定嘅調查,聽證係應該儘量公開。當然,我們 6 有權力係聽某些證據嘅情況之下係唔公開聆訊,但係一般情況嘅之下,嗰個聽證係 7 應該儘量公開。 8 第二,無論係邊種方法調查,委員會都會有自己嘅律師團隊,佢哋係會爲委員 9 會提供法律嘅意見,佢哋嘅主要工作就係蒐集證據,對證據進行有系統嘅分析同埋 10 排列,向證人同埋文件提出質詢,令到委員會明白事件嘅真相。 11 第三個原則,就係我哋對所有受查一方都要公平,我哋要畀佢哋有機會提供證 12 供,同埋質疑對方嘅證供嘅機會,我哋亦都有畀佢哋有機會對佢哋嘅指控係進行答 13 辯。 14 第四個原則,無論呢啲係法定或者非法定嘅調查,委員會都會用合適嘅方式邀 15 請公衆對我哋調查嘅事項提供證據,或者係意見。 16 今次,我亦都希望喺呢度同大家解釋,喺一般嘅重大事故,除咗呢個公衆聆訊 17 之外,通常係有幾種嘅法律程序係同時進行嘅,咁主要來講係有三種: 18 第一種就係公衆調查,即係我哋而家呢一個嘅調查。我哋會調查事故嘅原因、 19 制度嘅檢討、監管人員嘅角色同埋責任嘅問題。不過,呢個委員會係唔會處理個別 20 人士嘅法律責任問題,或者係政府官員嘅懲處,呢啲都會係交由行政長--行政機關 21 去處理嘅。 22 第二種嘅法律程序就係刑事調查同埋民事嘅索償,咁呢啲法律程序就會處理個 23 別人士嘅法律責任,包括係刑事同埋民事責任。咁佢哋嘅法律責任就會喺有關法律 24 程序入面去決定。 25 委員會一定會盡量我哋所能去完成我哋嘅調查工作,但係我哋都希望對其他嘅 26 法律程序嘅影響係減到最少。當事人都可以喺佢哋嘅--面對佢哋個人嘅刑事調查或 27 者民事索償,係得到一個公平嘅審訊。換句話講,我哋亦都唔希望呢啲被告人或者 28 係被追索嘅人士因爲我哋嘅調查而去話佢哋得唔到一個公平審訊,而導致脫罪或者 29 係脫責的。 30 第三個程序就係死因研訊。咁根據香港嘅法例,死亡事件都會係交由呢個死因 31 裁判官去決定會不會展開呢個死因研訊嘅,咁呢個嘅決定係完全係死因裁判官嘅決 32 定。 33 呢三種嘅程序都會係獨立由唔同嘅機構係去負責同埋進行,互不影響。但我亦 34 都喺度強調,即使如此,我哋嘅調查工作亦需要考慮到其他嘅法律程序係同時一起 35 進行。我哋一定要--喺我哋一定要完成我哋嘅職責範圍嘅調查工作之餘,我哋亦都 36 希望我哋係減少對其他法律程序嘅影響。 37 今日係我哋嘅指示嘅會議,目的就係爲咗我哋之後嘅聽證會發出指示,希望令 38

5 本謄本由 Epiq 編製,於指示會議中使用的英文詞句由獨立委員會秘書處補充。

到我哋嘅聽證會係可以順利進行。咁今次係都係第一次有機會,畀有意參加或者參 1 與我哋今次調查工作嘅各方係出席,包括佢哋個人出席,或者係派佢哋嘅律師出 2 席,咁我哋今日都會有政府嘅代表啦、有市建局嘅代表、置邦物業管理公司嘅代 3 表,咁亦都有競爭事務委員會啦、廉政公署啦,合安管理有限公司嘅代表都喺度。 4 今日亦都有個別人士嘅代表嘅,咁我就唔喺度詳細盡錄啦。 5 今日我哋就會進行呢個指示聆訊啦,咁根據我哋而家要調查嘅--睇到嘅文件同 6 埋嗰方向,其實要喺九個月之內完成呢個調查工作確實係一個挑戰。咁喺聽證會之 7 前,其實我哋要蒐集大量嘅資料同埋整理,研究需唔需要搵一啲專家去就某哋嘅議 8 題去表達意見。我哋亦都同時要考慮到公衆人士提供畀我哋嘅資料同埋意見,喺呢 9 件事上面,我哋相信都會係幾多嘅。 10 咁但係即使遇到呢個困難都好啦,我哋同律師團隊商量咗之後,都係計劃係我 11 哋會盡快進行呢個聽證會,我哋計劃喺3 月19 號進行呢個聽證會。咁關於我哋以 12 下嘅調查嘅方向,或者係我哋點樣進行呢個日後嘅程序,我們而家想請我哋嘅委員 13 會嘅首席嘅代表資深大律師,杜淦堃資深大律師向我哋委員會陳述佢哋對呢啲嘢嘅 14 睇法,請杜淦堃資深大律師。 15 杜淦堃資深大律師:各位委員,喺去年11 月26 日,宏福苑嘅一場大火,釀成一宗令全香港 16 社會痛心疾首嘅悲劇,我謹代表整個法律團隊向所有受影響嘅家庭致以最深切嘅慰 17 問。我哋明白任何嘅說話都不足以撫平佢哋承受嘅哀痛。然而,我哋希望獨立委員 18 會嘅工作喺日後時日推移之中會爲事件帶來清晰嘅交代,同埋應該有嘅問責。 19 獨立委員會肩負一項極其重要而莊嚴嘅使命,我哋嘅首要任務係就火災嘅成因 20 同相關嘅情況進行調查,並向政府提出建議,確保呢一類型嘅悲劇唔會喺香港再次 21 發生。我哋法律團隊每日都深切體會到呢項責任嘅重要性,並將以最高度嘅勤勉、 22 獨立同埋審慎,全力協助獨立委員會履行你哋嘅職責。 23 正如主席剛剛指出,獨立委員會成立以來,我哋喺短時間內已收到非常大量嘅 24 資料,而法律團隊亦都全力以赴致力審閱整理相關嘅資料。當然相關嘅工作係進行 25 中,並將延續至我哋之後聆訊嘅每一個階段,但我哋有充分嘅信心能夠按時、全面 26 地協助獨立委員會履行你哋嘅職責。 27 我想強調喺呢個階段收到嘅證據嚟睇,我哋已經掌握到非常有用同埋重要嘅證 28 據,就火災嘅成因,同埋相關嘅事實,以及系統性嘅問題有相當嘅瞭解。喺過去一 29 個月,不同嘅政府部門同埋相關機構已經向委員會提供咗非常之多嘅文件,當中有 30 非常關鍵嘅線索,而我哋認爲相關嘅證據係要喺日後嘅聆訊向公衆披露同埋解釋。 31 我藉住呢個機會繼續呼籲相關嘅政府部門同埋、有關的機構、相關嘅人士毫無 32 保留咁向我哋提供有關嘅資料。 33 主席、各位委員,雖然我哋今日主要係處理程序上嘅問題,但是喺呢一個階段 34 我哋都想透露,綜合我哋目前嘅分析,已經顯示咗有一系列結構性嘅問題係似乎存 35 在嘅,呢啲問題既唔可以接受,亦都不容忽視。主席今日喺呢個指示會議上高,作 36 爲你哋嘅法律代表,我哋希望重點討論兩件事: 37 第一,係關於獨立調查委員會嘅職權範疇,特別係職權範圍(1)同埋(2)嘅 38

6 本謄本由 Epiq 編製,於指示會議中使用的英文詞句由獨立委員會秘書處補充。

工作。 1 第二,就係有關我哋未來嘅工作。簡述由而家至到證據聆訊嘅整體路線圖,同 2 埋將部分與草擬程序有關嘅規則,我知道呢個主席之後會向大家解釋,所以呢個我 3 哋會容後處理。 4 而家首先容許我講一講獨立委員會嘅職權範圍,因爲委員會嘅職權範圍係指任 5 委員會工作結構同埋權限嘅出發點。正如主席頭先所講簡單而言,第(1)項嘅職權 6 範圍,大家睇到銀幕上高打咗出嚟啦,係針對宏福苑所發生嘅悲劇本身。呢個職權 7 範圍要求獨立委員會查明宏福苑火災嘅起因,火災點解會迅速蔓延?並導致大規模 8 嘅人命傷亡同埋財物損毀。我哋都要審視消防安全系統、建築標準、用料監督同埋 9 保養係咪足夠? 10 此外,呢一個職權範圍亦都要求委員會去釐清因爲宏福苑火災相關問題而牽涉 11 具監督職責嘅人員,包括政府人士、專業人士、承建商同埋其他人士,佢哋嘅角 12 色、責任同埋相關嘅責任承擔。 13 換言之,第(1)項職權範圍嘅焦點係在於宏福苑呢一宗具體事件本身以及可能 14 釀成今次災難規模嘅各項因素。相比之下,第(2)個職權範圍所牽涉嘅層面係更加 15 宏觀嘅,第(2)項職權範圍所關注嘅並唔係限於宏福苑本身樓宇嘅維修工程,而係 16 涵蓋香港所有大型屋苑維修同埋翻新工程整體。 17 我哋見到第(2 )項職權範圍,佢開首所用嘅字眼“ 針對大型樓宇維修工 18 程…”,而當中所提及有關工程各環節有否--跟住我們睇到佢講“系統性問題”, 19 你哋見到已經清楚表明獨立委員會係需要審視整個行業,以及大型維修及翻新工程 20 嘅各個階段當中有冇一啲系統性嘅問題?而家嘅監管制度係咪足夠?同埋進一步考 21 慮制度係咪需要作出修訂或者改善? 22 大家亦都見到第(2)項職權範圍最後嘅部分,當中提及該等工程一個特定階 23 段,當中係提到招標程序同埋招標程序相關嘅具體問題,我哋見到包括涉貪圍標、 24 違規招標,呢啲嘅內容應該係理解爲針對香港所有大型樓宇及維修工程嘅整體,而 25 非限於某一個工程項目嘅本身。 26 當然,與此同時,我哋都會利用宏福苑作爲一個具體例子去檢視有關樓宇維修 27 及翻新工程裏面,工程係咪涉及咗第(2)項職權範圍所提及嘅一哋系統性問題,同 28 埋去睇下係咪真係有一啲更廣泛嘅系統性問題,所以宏福苑會係作爲一個例子。 29 當然,喺實際嘅操作上高,我哋大家都會明白,我哋去探討第(1)同第(2) 30 項職權範圍,我哋唔可以完全分割開兩件事咁去睇,當委員會你哋去審視第(1)項 31 職權範圍嘅時候,相關嘅證據包括調查火災本身,樓宇嘅維修情況同埋各項--現行 32 各項嘅系統性問題,有關嘅證據喺第(1)同第(2)個職權範圍裏面好可能會重疊 33 嘅。當中包括宏福苑維修工程階段裏面各方之間嘅關聯、關聯利益啦,或者相互關 34 係同埋佢哋嘅角色。 35 然而喺我哋之後嘅證據聆訊裏面,口頭嘅證據、焦點往往都會可能係放喺第 36 (1)項職權範圍,因爲喺呢個時候呈交畀獨立委員會嘅證據材料主要係集中火災本 37 身同埋佢哋嘅直接背景,所以口頭證據裏面,第(2)項職權範圍呢個議題或許唔會 38

7 本謄本由 Epiq 編製,於指示會議中使用的英文詞句由獨立委員會秘書處補充。

好似第(1)項職權範圍同樣咁突出,但是呢個並唔代表第(2)項職權範圍係會被 1 忽視。剛剛相反,其實第(2)項職權範圍將會喺獨立委員會嘅報告裏面得到全面嘅 2 審視,並將依據而家有嘅證據同埋職權範圍所要求廣泛分析作出討論。 3 需要注意嘅係職權範圍明確咁排除咗委員會、個人、公司或者相關嘅機構,作 4 出一啲民事或者刑事嘅裁定,主席剛剛亦都解釋咗呢一件事,但係基於呢件事嘅重 5 要性,請容許我哋向公衆再一次解釋。 6 呢啲嘅事情其實應該係由法院去裁定,而喺其他普通法、司法管轄區的案例裏 7 面,我哋可以見到公衆調查一般係都是禁止或者冇權力去裁定民事或者刑事相關嘅 8 責任。獨立委員會亦都需要確保調查過程唔會對日後提交畀法院嘅起訴或者其他法 9 律程序造成一啲不利嘅影響。 10 大家喺媒體裏邊都睇到,警方、廉政公署同埋其他嘅執法機構其實連日來已經 11 採取咗一啲拘捕嘅行動。大家或者見到前幾日競委會亦都作出咗一啲嘅行動同埋搜 12 查。其中有一系列嘅人士已經被捕,同埋有啲係被涉嫌干犯咗一啲嚴重嘅罪行,包 13 括誤殺。如果獨立委員會對宏福苑維修工程涉及嘅特定人士作出一啲譬如貪污、勾 14 結或者圍標,或其他不當行爲嘅事實裁定,呢個極會有可能影響同埋觸及相關嘅刑 15 事調查嘅範疇。 16 我哋相信獨立委員會亦都會認同,如果委員會嘅工作導致潛在嘅訴訟或者法律 17 程序受到影響,尤其應該承擔民事或者刑事責任嘅人可以逍遙法外嘅話,呢個係絕 18 對唔符合公衆利益。 19 儘管如此,我哋想強調我哋亦都有充分嘅信心,獨立調查委員會會喺處理第 20 (2)項職權範疇工作嘅時候,有充足嘅資料可以讓你哋提供到分析,包括公開資 21 料、各政府部門同埋相關機構提供嘅文件,以及其他嘅證據。呢啲資料將令到你哋 22 能夠,第一,決定係咪有存在系統性嘅問題呢個議題作出結論,亦都可以識別出可 23 能令社會關注嘅市場運作模式啦、結構性弱點或者特徵,以及就呢啲嘅事情向政府 24 提出一啲建議。 25 主席閣下,總結而言,第(1)項職權範疇指示咗今次嘅調查去揭示宏福苑火災 26 嘅始末,以及相關災難嘅原因。而第(2)項職權範疇就指示咗調查委員會考察樓宇 27 維修同埋翻新行業是否存在更廣泛性嘅系統性問題。呢兩項嘅任務都有重大嘅公衆 28 利益,並需嚴謹嘅態度進行。我哋亦都會喺尊重職權範疇嘅權限底下全力協助委員 29 會。 30 喺呢個階段,我哋想解釋,或者我哋嘅陳詞係咁多,多謝主席。 31 陸啟康法官:多謝杜淦堃資深大律師。咁係我哋未邀請其他法律代表發言之前,我首先喺呢 32 度想講一講我哋嘅聽證會嘅一啲嘅程序規則。因爲每一次嘅聽證會,我哋都會有一 33 啲調查規則嘅,咁因爲我哋都係要我哋去遵守啦。咁首先我係喺度就會…呢個係我 34 哋嘅草擬本啦,最終嘅版本我會係聽咗各個嘅出席嘅代表佢哋陳詞之後,我哋再出 35 最終嘅版本嘅。 36 首先我就講,我哋第一就會有聽證會啦。咁第二,我哋講呢個聽證會將會喺我 37 哋呢個地方,即係中環愛丁堡廣場3 號展城館3 樓進行。並且將於2026 年3 月 38

8 本謄本由 Epiq 編製,於指示會議中使用的英文詞句由獨立委員會秘書處補充。

19 日上晝10 點鐘展開。咁聽證會係會持續進行嘅,但委員會可不時按需要係考慮 1 押後聽證會。咁呢個亦都係根據我哋嘅過往經驗,因爲喺嗰個聽證會入邊,中間亦 2 都有好多嘢發生,證人嘅安排,我哋會未必會日日都係--我哋會繼續完成,但未必 3 係每一日都會有聽證會嘅,我哋會睇時間嘅時間表去考慮會唔會喺適當時候押後呢 4 個嘅聽證會。 5 咁除非另有指示啦,聽證會嘅時間是由星期一到五上晝嘅10 點到下午1 點, 6 以及下晝2 點15 分直到係下晝嘅4 點半。咁委員會有需要時可以指示喺上文第 7 2、第3 段所述嘅期間裏邊嘅星期六上午繼續進行呢個聽證會嘅。 8 如果任何一方係想參與呢個聽證會,傳召證人,或者係提供任何嘅證人供詞或 9 者資料,用於係呢個聽證會嘅用途嘅話,必須係喺2026 年2 月12 號或之前向委 10 員會提出書面嘅申請,簡稱“參與申請”,並述明其中申請嘅理由。 11 第六,就係委員會可以批准同埋唔批准任何參與申請,並在適當嘅情況之下就 12 某方係聽證會嘅參與嘅範圍係施加一啲限制,或者係規定委員會將以任何嘅方式接 13 收佢哋嘅證供。 14 第七,除非委員會另作指示啦,獲得委員會批准參與聽證會並且係會上傳召證 15 人,或者提供證人供詞或者資料嘅任何一方,必須第一,係喺2026 年2 月23 日 16 或之前向委員會提交將予傳召證人嘅證人供詞同埋擬提供嘅資料。第二,喺2026 17 年2 月23 號或者之前,向秘書處提供涉事一方嘅代表嘅姓名、職銜、電話號碼、 18 電郵地址,以供秘書處可以用於發放有關聽證會嘅後勤安排嘅訊息。 19 第八,就係所有提供畀委員會嘅申請、陳詞、證人供詞同埋資料,須係交畀秘 20 書處,並以電郵嘅方式發送畀大家睇到個電郵地址啦,或者係以傳真發送畀 21 23331302。或者係以電郵方式,係寄畀香港灣仔告士打道7 號入境事務大樓10 22 樓。 23 咁第九,就係除非委員會另有指示,聽證會係會開放畀公衆人士嘅,咁當然頭 24 先亦都講過啦,我哋係有保留番有一啲嘅證據,如果我哋覺得係唔應該公開嘅時 25 候,我哋係會可能唔喺公開嘅情況之下聽證嘅。 26 在未經委員會授權之下,一筆--一律係唔准喺聽證會入面進行期間,喺我哋香 27 港中環愛丁堡廣場呢個展城館聽證會嘅場地嘅範圍之內,以及委員會所設立嘅所有 28 聆訊嘅轉播區入面拍照、錄影,錄音或者錄影。 29 第十一,就係秘書處,擬將所有嘅文件冊,以供喺聽證會入面使用啦。文件冊 30 係會以電子嘅方式提供畀涉事各方,並載有委員會認爲相關,而且適宜加入嘅文 31 件。委員會亦都可以對文件冊入面嘅文件部分,內容,係作出認爲適當嘅遮蓋。 32 咁入面都提一提啦,喺呢度講一講,大家都見到啦,因爲我哋今次涉及嘅文件 33 係非常之多,咁所以我哋今次,我哋係會用電子檔案嘅模式去做嘅,咁所以你見到 34 我哋大家每一個委員面前都會有好多部電腦,就我哋會用呢個電腦文件冊嘅方式, 35 即係好似喺法庭都會有用嘅呢個系統,係去用呢一套系統嘅。 36 咁任何一方如果喺聽證會嘅文件冊中想加入其他文件,必須係向秘書處提供書 37 面嘅申請。並同時,須向委員會嘅律師,送交一份嘅副本。 38

9 本謄本由 Epiq 編製,於指示會議中使用的英文詞句由獨立委員會秘書處補充。

第十三,就所有委員會提供嘅事實方面嘅資料,只能用於聽證會嘅用途,呢個 1 非常之重要。在未經委員會嘅書面批准之下,唔可以向公衆發放任何呢啲嘅資料, 2 任何人士或者嘅實體向委員會或者佢嘅代表,或者向佢發放或者提供任何資料嘅同 3 時,該等人士嘅實體以及佢嘅律師或者大律師都會被視作,作出一個承諾,即係無 4 論喺任何情況之下,佢哋未經委員會書面批准之下,係唔可以向其他涉事嘅各方、 5 其他人士或者其他實體發放或者披露呢啲資料,或者所載嘅呢啲資料嘅內容同埋來 6 源。咁當然,喺聽證會入面聽到嘅資料,嗰啲全部都係公開嘅。 7 第十四,委員會嘅代表大律師係可以作出書面同埋口頭嘅開場陳詞,任何涉事 8 一方,如果係希望想作出口頭開場陳詞嘅話,係必須喺2026 年3 月9 日或之前向 9 委員會提出申請,並隨申請係附上一份唔多於20 頁嘅書面開場陳詞,字體大小, 10 須爲14 號啦,而頁面邊距亦都係1 寸,即係我哋對陳詞嘅長短係有限制,因爲我 11 哋都要顧及,我哋要喺呢一個嘅短嘅時間之內完成啦,所以我哋對一啲陳詞嘅長 12 短,我哋係有一啲嘅限制嘅。 13 委員會,係可以行使佢哋嘅酌情權,決定,該等口頭陳詞嘅先後次序同埋時 14 間,爲涉事嘅各方嘅任何口頭開場陳詞唔能夠超過30 分鐘,並緊按喺委員會代表 15 律師,代表大律師陳詞完畢後,係隨即進行。咁按委員會的酌情權同埋其他認爲適 16 當嘅遮蓋下,任何提交予委員會嘅書面開場陳詞,將會上載到我哋委員會嘅網站。 17 收取證據方面。十七,委員會係唔受呢個證據規則嘅約束嘅,我哋係可以收取 18 考慮以口述證供啦、書面陳述、文件或者其他方式提供嘅材料,即使該等嘅材料喺 19 民事或者刑事法律程序中,係唔獲接納嘅證據。 20 第十八,證人係可以按其屬意,使用語言或者方言係作供。但係如果證人希望 21 喺聽證會上使用英語、普通話或者本地話以外嘅任何語言或者方言作供,就請你哋 22 喺2026 年3 月9 日之前,係通知秘書處,咁委員會係會可以提供即時嘅翻譯服務 23 嘅。 24 如何證人喺作供時--或者亦都我喺度提一提啦,我哋嘅聆訊就會係以--主要係 25 以中文進行,咁但是如果牽涉到可能一啲係英語嘅證人嘅時候,我哋可能嗰段時 26 間,就會係用英語進行或者係用英語提問一啲嘅問題,咁所以我哋會係主要以中文 27 爲主,廣東話爲主,但係喺適當嘅時候,我哋可能係會用英文嘅作供嘅。 28 任何證人喺作供之前,須要聲明佢嘅所作嘅證供係盡其所知,所屬所信,均屬 29 係爲真實嘅。 30 委員會喺收取口述證供嘅程序係如下嘅: 31 第一,委員會將決定喺聽證會入面,作出口述證供嘅先後次序啦,並將喺呢個 32 聽證會期間公佈嘅聽證嘅時間表。咁我哋係會盡量係會喺適當嘅時限,亦是喺可行 33 嘅情況之下,會喺我哋網站係會公佈我哋嘅日程嘅時間表,即係當日會有邊個證人 34 作供,咁但係呢個都會要視乎一般嘅情況與進度係點樣樣嘅,咁但係呢個我哋係會 35 盡量安排。 36 第二,就委員會嘅代表大律師係會向委員會傳召證人提問,任何涉事一方如果 37 想向該個證人提問,並已獲委員會嘅批准,可以隨後按委員會嘅決定先後嘅次序去 38

10 本謄本由 Epiq 編製,於指示會議中使用的英文詞句由獨立委員會秘書處補充。

提問,任何涉事一方如果想向委員會嘅證人提問,須在委員會代表大律師完成提問 1 之後去提出申請,並扼要說明佢哋擬提問嘅範圍,委員會嘅代表大律師跟住係可以 2 再覆問該個證人嘅。 3 如果涉事嘅某方傳召證人嘅話,則除非委員會另有批准,該涉事一方嘅法律代 4 表係唔可以向該個證人作出主問。在聽證會上面,委員會嘅代表大律師係會向任何 5 涉事一方傳召證人提問,任何其他涉事嘅一方隨後如果想向呢個涉事某方嘅證人提 6 問嘅話,亦都獲得咗委員會嘅批准,就可以按委員會決定嘅先後次序係提問嘅。任 7 何其他涉事一方如果想向涉事嘅某一方嘅證人提問,須要喺委員會嘅代表大律師完 8 成提問之後係提出申請,並扼要說出呢個佢擬提出問嘅--提問嘅一啲範圍,最後, 9 傳召證人嘅涉事嘅某方嘅法律代表係可以覆問該個證人嘅。 10 第四,就除非委員會另有指示啦,任何證人如屬意,以其證人供詞嘅作爲證供 11 嘅話,不論佢有否嗰個供詞作出修改或者展述嘅話,該個證人嘅供詞嘅內容都唔會 12 喺呢個聽證會上面讀出嘅。喺任何證人作出口述嘅證供嘅過程之中,委員會可以隨 13 時向嗰個口述嘅證供嘅證人係提問。 14 委員會將會決定任何涉事一方的代表所提供嘅證據或者佢哋所提出嘅問題是否 15 相關,並可隨時就任何證人嘅口述證供,係設定一個時限嘅。具體而言,委員會就 16 涉事各方提問證人嘅申請作出裁定嘅時候,將會考慮包括證人供詞與相關涉事一方 17 嘅權益嘅相關性,確保呢個聽證會係可以喺公平並且係有效進行嘅必要性,以及委 18 員會認爲相關嘅一啲其他因素。委員會可再度傳召任何已作咗口述證供嘅人士回答 19 進一步嘅提問。 20 咁到總結陳詞啦。咁委員會嘅代表大律師同埋涉事各方嘅代表大律師都可以作 21 出書面嘅總結陳詞,並且喺委員會嘅指示下作出口述嘅總結陳詞,委員會可以決定 22 該等書面或者口述嘅陳詞嘅形式、先後次序同埋時間嘅長短。按委員會嘅酌情權同 23 埋作出其認爲適當嘅遮蓋之下,任何提交畀委員會嘅書面總結陳詞,都會上載到委 24 員會嘅網站。 25 最後就係謄本喇,咁秘書處係將會--將爲呢個聽證會安排即時係作呢個謄寫嘅 26 服務,任何涉事一方,如果想訂購呢個即時嘅謄寫服務,須在2026 年2 月27 日 27 或之前,向委員會秘書處提出書面申請,述明需要訂購嘅數量同埋承諾支付嘅訂購 28 費用,訂購者如果係喺聽證會期間想閱覽呢個實時嘅謄本,需要係使用自己便攜式 29 電腦同埋書記簿型嘅電腦審閱,並且係直接同呢個服務提供者作出呢個安排,呢個 30 係即時傳譯嘅謄本,我頭先講嘅。 31 咁但是另外,委員會喺取得每日聽證會嘅謄本之後,亦都係會向委員會嘅代表 32 大律師以及係獲批准參與聽證會同埋相關涉事各方嘅法律代表,提供有關嘅謄本嘅 33 電子副本。按委員會嘅酌情權,有關嘅謄本會上載到委員會嘅網站。 34 喺聽證會進行期間嘅座位安排,會由秘書處按每日嘅情況決定,喺整個聽證會 35 嘅過程中,代表委員會嘅大律師同埋律師會獲編配固定嘅座位,但係涉事各方嘅法 36 律代表嘅座位編配,則會視乎作供證人嘅身份,已獲許向證人提問嘅各方以及任何 37 秘書處認爲相關嘅其他因素嚟決定嘅。最後,委員會係可以喺適當嘅時候,對呢個 38

11 本謄本由 Epiq 編製,於指示會議中使用的英文詞句由獨立委員會秘書處補充。

嘅程序嘅規則作出呢個修訂同埋補充。 1 咁呢一個嘅聽證會嘅程序規則就由我哋法律律師團隊係幫我哋協助呢個嘅撰寫 2 嘅,現階段我想問我哋嘅律師團隊嘅首席大律師唔知有冇關於呢一個嘅聽證程序規 3 則嘅條文,有冇需要發言? 4 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,主席,多謝主席。正如主席頭先所講,其實今次指示會議其中一個 5 目的係爲咗聽證會訂立番一套程序規則,具體嘅規則同埋關鍵嘅日期,主席會喺聽 6 取今日涉事各方代表律師陳詞之後進一步討論啦。但是喺涉事各方發言之前,因爲 7 當中涉及一啲比較重要嘅關鍵日期,所以主席請容許我可能會爲咗公衆利益前提底 8 下,重複一啲有關嘅重點。 9 第一個關鍵日期,其實就係各方申請參與聽證會嘅截止日期。喺今次指示會議 10 之前,其實我哋已經致函相關嘅涉事人士啦,部門或者機構,尋求佢哋嘅協助。喺 11 唔影響今次聆訊嘅公正性同埋公平性嘅前提底下,我哋通知咗佢哋委員會工作過程 12 裏面可能會對佢哋作出嘅一啲嘅批評。 13 今日有若干涉事方亦都出席咗今日我哋呢個指示會議啦,亦都表示咗希望佢哋 14 會參與委員會嘅聽證會嘅。今日出席嘅涉事方既有政府嘅代表啦,亦都有啲非政府 15 機構同埋個別人士,當中包括宏福苑物業管理公司嘅代表啦,同埋宏福苑大廈維修 16 顧問公司嘅董事代表,我哋當然唔可以排除之後有其他人士或者機構被邀請或者主 17 動申請參加聽證會。申請人可唔可以參加聽證會正如主席所講喇,係由委員會作最 18 終嘅決定,委員會藉此對任何有意協助我哋工作嘅人士表示謝意啦,但係鑑於其實 19 相關你哋要分析嘅資料,其實個數量相當之龐大,同埋你哋要喺九個月之內完成工 20 作,同埋向公衆提供有關嘅報告。委員會係有需要對各方參與聽證會安排作出有效 21 率嘅管理,例如如果涉事一方提供嘅證據其實同現有證據已經有一啲嘅重疊嘅話, 22 有關嘅涉事方可能冇需要提供相關證據或者出席聽證會。簡單咁去講,設立呢個截 23 止日期嘅目的係去確保委員會對有意參與嘅人士給予適當嘅通知。同埋有規範咁樣 24 去指示佢哋參與嘅方式,可以讓聽證會係有序、有效率而且公正咁去進行。 25 對於今日有出席相關嘅涉事方,獨立委員會喺指示會議結束後,當然會明確咁 26 去表示佢哋係咪被批准參與聽證會啦,若果委員會批准,亦都將同時決定有關嘅涉 27 事方參與程度同埋相關嘅範疇。如果憑喺每一個階段,如果委員會覺得就相關你已 28 經收到嘅資料,你哋可能喺某個範疇裏面冇辦法作出一啲全面嘅裁定,委員會當然 29 會致函相關嘅涉事方,邀請佢哋喺2 月12 日截止之前提出正式嘅申請,所以其實 30 你哋係有一個主動權去邀請有關嘅人士參加。 31 至於,如果只希望就部分嘅職權範疇,例如第(2)項職權範疇參與嘅話,或者 32 你只係想基於對於某個職權範疇,你有一啲嘅參加嘅理由,但係你唔想每一日都出 33 席聆訊,你只係想嚟聽,只係想嚟參與嘅話,或者你唔係其實想作出一啲盤問嘅, 34 你只係想作出一啲有限度嘅參與,呢啲都係容許嘅,亦都之前係請佢哋同委員會律 35 師或者委員會去提出相關你考慮到你角色相關嘅參與程度。呢個係第一個關鍵日 36 期。 37 第二個關鍵日期就係獲得獨立委員會批准嘅相關涉事方,向委員會提交證據同 38

12 本謄本由 Epiq 編製,於指示會議中使用的英文詞句由獨立委員會秘書處補充。

埋資料嘅限期,呢個截止日期目前我哋喺第(7)條係定咗喺2 月23 日,呢個限期 1 當然對於一啲已提交咗文件嘅涉事方,例如一啲政府部門或者機構,可能係唔係最 2 適用啦,因爲你已經提交咗。但是基於事件本身會繼續發展,而我哋亦都見到其實 3 係絕對有可能有補充資料嘅提交。相關嘅涉事方其實應該預期喺上述嘅日子裏面, 4 就大部分你有嘅資料,你覺得有用嘅資料,其實係應該喺相關嘅日期之前提交。 5 同樣重要嘅係除非獨立委員會事先同意呢啲資料須作保密處理,否則呢啲嘅證 6 據其實有可能係會與其他嘅涉事方披露,亦都可能構成聽證會文件冊嘅一部分,因 7 此雖然獨立委員會歡迎相關涉事方儘可能提供協助,但我哋都想提醒大家,提交資 8 料嘅時候應該自行謹慎咁樣判斷披露後嘅法律效果,呢啲證據或者資料喺獨立委員 9 會酌情嘅考慮下,可能構成聽證會公開盤問證人嘅書面依據。 10 對於已經向獨立委員會提交資料嘅相關涉事方,如果認爲部分資料不宜披露嘅 11 話,請你哋都喺同一個截止日期之前,同委員會講清楚相關唔應該披露嘅理由。 12 鑑於已經提交咗嘅文件資料相當龐大,同埋可能涉及敏感嘅內容。我哋啱啱都 13 講咗唔係所有資料都會喺文件冊裏面出現,或者喺最後嘅報告裏面引用。事實上, 14 亦都冇可能引用或者採納全部嘅資料。 15 我哋知道委員會嘅責任對於所有參與聽證會嘅涉事方公正行事,所以我哋會遵 16 守自然公義同埋程序公義嘅原則去進行呢一次嘅聆訊。如果委員會收到某一些資料 17 可能會導致委員會喺工作過程或者喺最後嘅報告裏面,對某涉事方作出一啲嘅批 18 評,委員會係會向該涉事方披露,同埋畀你哋充分嘅機會去回應有關嘅指控。換句 19 話講,雖然呢個唔係一個我哋平時嘅法庭程序,我哋冇法庭裏面嘅文件,但是我再 20 想一次強調,基於程序公義,基於自然公義嘅問題,喺我哋對你作出指控之前,你 21 哋係會有機會向委員會解釋。 22 講到第三個關鍵日期,即係我哋3 月19 日開始聽證會,喺現階段嚟講,聽證 23 會具體安排上高,的確係存在咗一啲嘅不確定性,其實過往嘅聽證會都係有呢啲情 24 況嘅,而家我哋好難確定邊一個個體或者團體係會參加聽證會,相關證人嘅數目 25 啦、聽證會用嘅文件範疇啦,我哋知道公衆都好想知道呢啲嘅資料,但係基於現階 26 段我哋仲係收集緊相關資料,喺呢個階段我諗我哋未可以作出進一步嘅披露。當 27 然,獨立委員會我哋會喺適當嘅時候作出相關嘅指示,包括證人出席個順序啦,同 28 埋有關嘅時間啦,我哋務必會讓涉事各方同埋公衆提前去知道呢一啲嘅資料。 29 關於聽證會,本身我哋都想強調幾點嘅: 30 第一,正如主席已經講咗,我哋涉及非常重要嘅公衆利益,所以聆訊基本上會 31 係公開,其實個安排會係同今日相似嘅,我哋會確保調查係公開同埋有透明度。但 32 是正如主席解釋,當我哋處理有關敏感資料嘅時候,委員會同埋法律團隊會考慮我 33 哋有冇需要係用第二啲嘅安排進行。 34 喺聽證會開始嘅時候,我哋作爲委員會嘅代表律師,我哋會提交書面嘅開場陳 35 詞,根據獨立委員會嘅決定,如果涉事各方提交相關書面嘅陳詞,其實以過往嘅做 36 法,我哋係會上載到去委員會嘅網站,涉事各方當然你有個權利,就係決定向唔向 37 委員會申請書面嘅陳詞,當然,呢個喺整件事上高嘅角色啦,你哋嘅定位都會係有 38

13 本謄本由 Epiq 編製,於指示會議中使用的英文詞句由獨立委員會秘書處補充。

關係。喺聽證會裏面,我哋作爲委員會律師,除了作開案陳詞之外,我哋書面開案 1 陳詞之外,我哋都會作一啲口頭嘅陳詞,好讓公衆去明白或者去睇一啲重要嘅證 2 據。隨後我哋就會有收取口述證據嘅程序,接納證據,正如主席所講係一個莊嚴嘅 3 程序,證人需要聲明佢哋所作嘅證據是盡佢哋嘅所知、所悉同埋所信,均屬真實。 4 所以獨立委員會期望所有證人係如實咁全面咁樣去提供佢哋嘅證據。亦都強調一 5 次,雖然唔係法律程序,但係如果證人或者個別人士喺委員會履行公共職責嘅時候 6 故意作出一啲嘅誤導,佢哋亦都可能面對相關嘅法律責任。 7 就委員會傳召嘅證人而言,委員會嘅代表律師,即係我哋會首先提問啦。之後 8 經委員會批准,涉事各方係可以作出盤問,而最後再由我哋去問補充嘅問題。喺呢 9 一步我哋想強調有別於法庭程序,可能唔係涉事各方都可以喺冇規範嘅情況之下作 10 出盤問,相關嘅範疇同埋申請會喺適時由委員會決定。 11 如果涉事各方傳召證人,其實係須經委員會批准。涉事各方喺傳召或批准傳召 12 證人之後,可以首先向證人提問,之後由委員會嘅代表律師進行詢問,然後就同樣 13 經委員會批准啦,涉事各方去進行詢問,最後就會由傳召該證人一方嘅法律代表提 14 出補充嘅問題。剛剛嘅描述,在場有好多位法律代表,我哋知道可能同法庭採納證 15 供嘅形式相似,但係基於唔係法律程序,我哋亦都再想強調喺程序上高會有更大嘅 16 彈性,去確保我哋喺一個公正同埋有效率呢兩方面之間取得平衡。 17 最後係《程序規則》第23 條,委員會聽取有關證據之後,你哋會決定由邊一 18 位代表律師同埋涉事各方喺幾時作出結案陳詞,相關嘅模式同埋次序,我哋相信喺 19 聽取證供之後,我哋再作有關嘅討論。 20 主席,當然最後一個而係非常重要嘅指標日期係發表報告嘅日期。我相信委員 21 會喺適當嘅時機會依據聽證會裏面呈現嘅證據,其實係會着手開始撰寫報告,務求 22 向公衆提供全面而透明嘅結果,並提出建議,係防止有關嘅悲劇再次發生。 23 除咗我以上嘅觀察之外,我哋完全同意主席對程序規則嘅解釋同埋處理方法, 24 喺唔影響其他涉事方嘅程序,對程序規則提交嘅意見程序底下,喺在我哋再聽取進 25 一步陳詞之下,我哋希望主席今日可以決定有關嘅程序管理規則嘅框架,喺現階段 26 我哋想解釋係咁多,多謝主席。 27 陸啟康法官:多謝杜律師。咁喺或者未聽涉事各方對呢一個程序規則嘅陳詞之前,我亦都想 28 特別提一提頭先阿杜淦堃大律師提一點,我亦都想同公衆解釋,如果有任何人想參 29 與我哋嘅調查,如果你因爲係同個事件係有關,或者有個英文我哋叫做有 30 interest,即係你係有個利益喺度嘅話,可以即使係你哋唔派律師代表,但係你 31 哋係想出席,或者你哋唔同情況嘅參與,你哋都應該亦都可以寫畀我哋秘書處,咁 32 我哋係會即係睇你嘅申請同埋作出安排嘅。甚至乎你係覺得我淨係想嚟,因爲我係 33 嗰個任何涉事一方係有利益嘅話,我哋都係會接受申請嘅。 34 咁或者對其他涉事一方嘅代表大律師,你哋想喺現階段,我哋就諗住--你哋對 35 呢一個程序嘅規則或者係對於我哋今日嘅調查任何一方、任何一個問題,或者你哋 36 有冇咩現階段嘅一啲嘅陳詞想同大家講嘅呢?我想問政府孫靖乾大律師、資深大律 37 師,你有冇嘢想現階段講?因爲我想喺--因爲我哋都可能會係有一個小休啦,咁你 38

14 本謄本由 Epiq 編製,於指示會議中使用的英文詞句由獨立委員會秘書處補充。

想喺小休睇完,研究咗呢啲咁嘅規則之後,聽咗之後你哋先決定有咩想同我哋陳 1 詞? 2 孫靖乾資深大律師:好,唔該晒主席同埋兩位委員,同埋呢一個獨立委員會嘅大律師團隊。 3 咁我相信如果有一個小休嘅話,可能我哋認爲喺個小休之後,我哋再睇下有冇需要 4 有任何嘅陳詞,咁我哋再去儘量協助呢個獨立委員會。 5 陸啟康法官:或者我哋亦都要有啲任何一方或者今日出席嘅,可能有幾方我哋唔需要你哋再 6 作出參與申請,即係確定你哋已經係參與咗嗰個調查程序,咁我諗就或者我哋可以 7 喺小休之後決定,如果係決定咗邊幾個涉事方,其實佢哋已經係今日出席咗,亦都 8 係表示咗係興趣參與嘅話,其實我哋可能就唔需要你哋某幾方再作出申請,好唔 9 好?咁我哋而家現階段小休十五分鐘,好唔好?十五分鐘。 10

11 11 時04 分會議押後 12 11 時20 分會議恢復 13

14 陸啟康法官:首先,我想講講我哋今朝處理咗好多事情,關於我哋嗰個調查方向啦,同埋嗰 15 個嘅規則嘅。咁我想問下涉事嘅各方,即係今日有出席嘅,唔知各方有冇陳詞係想 16 現階段同委員會講?係,孫資深大律師。 17 孫靖乾資深大律師:唔該晒主席,唔該晒兩位委員。我係代表呢個政府嘅有關嘅決策局同埋 18 部門,咁我哋係純粹有一個好簡短嘅陳詞啦。咁首先就係我想講一講我哋代表嘅有 19 關嘅決策局同埋部門,就包括目前爲止就係警務處、消防處、民政事務總處、房屋 20 署、屋宇署以及呢個勞工處。咁我哋嗰個大律師團隊除咗我本人之外,另外有三位 21 大律師啦,就包括卓元暢大律師、陸栩然大律師,同埋劉逸冲大律師嘅。咁喺呢度 22 我哋都係再次感謝就係呢個主席同埋兩位委員,以及呢一個獨立委員會嘅大律師團 23 隊啦,就今次嘅呢個嘅指示,同埋呢個嘅聽證會程序規則係作出嘅努力,咁我哋係 24 考慮過嗰個程序規則之後,我哋都冇進一步嘅意見。咁我哋純粹喺度係想重申,就 25 係政府亦都係高度重視今次呢一個嘅調查,我哋會全力去配合同埋協助呢一個獨立 26 嘅調查,獨立委員會嘅,唔該晒。 27 陸啟康法官:唔該。咁或者呂資深大律師有冇嘢想講,代表市區重建局。 28 呂世杰資深大律師:係,我哋代表市建局嘅。係,除咗我本人之外,亦都有阮文躍大律師 29 啦。除咗就今朝委員會嗰個指示,我哋冇任何其他嘅陳詞。 30 陸啟康法官:咁或者置邦管理公司,有冇? 31 置邦興業有限公司代表:係,主席、委員好。我係代表置邦物業管理公司嘅。咁首先,置邦 32 同埋佢嘅法律團隊想向所有因爲呢場大火悲劇受影響嘅人士同埋家庭致以最深切嘅 33 慰問嘅。 34 咁我哋感謝委員會嘅工作,亦都同埋感謝委員會草擬嘅程序規則。不論喺之前 35 嘅文件提交環節定係後續嘅程序,我哋都願意盡力去配合委員會嘅工作。咁我哋置 36 邦都確認佢會參與呢個聽證會啦,同埋佢會盡佢所能協助委員會工作,咁暫時我哋 37 對於規則就冇其他嘅意見嘅,感謝。 38

15 本謄本由 Epiq 編製,於指示會議中使用的英文詞句由獨立委員會秘書處補充。

陸啟康法官:其他個別人士,有冇想陳詞? 1 競爭事務委員會代表:係,早晨主席。我係代表競爭事務委員會嘅,我哋有一個好簡短嘅陳 2 詞。咁首先,就住今次慘劇嘅死者、傷者同埋佢哋嘅家屬,我哋一定要致以最深切 3 嘅慰問嘅。 4 競委會作爲競爭條例嘅最主要執法部門,其實我哋由十多年前成立至今,我哋 5 都就住大型維修潛在嘅反競爭行爲,包括圍標、合謀定價、瓜分市場,我哋都高度 6 關注嘅,我哋有之前作出一系列嘅調查啦,同埋亦都有做過研究嘅。 7 喺嚟緊數月啦,咁競委會係願意全力協助委員會就住呢方面嘅工作,我哋現階 8 段見到有三個地方競委會係可以協助委員會嘅:第一個地方就係喺法律可行嘅情況 9 之下,競委會係絕對願意同委員會分享我哋嘅調查嘅經驗,同埋喺法律可行嘅情況 10 之下甚至乎分享我哋調查嘅結果同埋我哋學術研究嘅結果。喺第二點,第二點就係 11 就住執行《競爭法》同埋確保或者杜絕反競爭行爲嘅事宜,競委會亦都願意係作出 12 陳詞,關於喺現有嘅規管同埋刑罰下,有啲乜嘢嘅改善空間。咁第三點就係當然如 13 果委員會有任何嘅就住特定嘅問題,希望、希望競委會協助嘅,我哋都一定會全力 14 配合嘅。 15 就住今日喺席前嗰個草擬嘅程序規、規矩,競委會有一個好簡短嘅陳詞啫,就 16 係正如杜資深大律師所講,其實競委會相信我哋最主要參與嘅部分係職權範圍第 17 (2)至(4)部分,咁我哋亦都確認,當然職權範圍(1)嘅情況之下,有啲情況 18 競委會都可能需要出席嘅。但如果有啲日子或者有啲證人畀緊口供嘅時候,競委會 19 係認爲不需要競委會出席嘅,好讓我哋可以聚焦咁協助委員會,我哋希望喺草擬嗰 20 個程序下面,容許我哋可以提出一個書面申請喺某啲日子、某啲部分就申請缺席 21 嘅,咁除此之外,我哋冇其他陳詞㗎喇,感謝。 22 陸啟康法官:仲有冇其他涉事一方想陳詞?如果冇嘅話,關於頭先嗰個參與申請,喺呢度我 23 諗有幾個頭先發言咗嘅機構,包括代表政府啦,代表呢個市建局(市區重建局), 24 包括呢個代表管理公司同埋競委會。咁呢四方我哋係唔需要佢哋再提出呢個參與申 25 請,但請你哋同我哋秘書處保持聯絡啦,譬如好似競委會,你邊日會出席或者點樣 26 樣,我哋會畀個日程你,通知你,然後到時睇下你嚟唔嚟。至於其他各方或者甚至 27 乎今日有律師代表,因爲你哋嘅參與程度都唔係話好清楚,所以現階段我哋希望你 28 哋,除咗我頭先所提嘅四個機構之外,其他係會需要你哋再同我哋申請參與呢個嘅 29 調查,等我哋係可以清楚你哋係想個參與嘅程度同埋參與嘅情況係點樣樣,大家清 30 唔清楚?如果--仲有冇其他嘢需要處理? 31 如果冇嘅話,最後我想講一樣嘢嘅,就係其實我哋委員會頭先講過喇,我哋會 32 邀請公衆係提供資料畀我哋嘅,咁所以就住呢個起火嘅起因同埋迅速蔓延嘅成因、 33 情由同埋相關事宜,其實我哋已經出咗一個公告,係請公衆提供資料,包括證據同 34 埋意見畀我哋嘅。咁我哋嘅--因爲我哋一定好多時間要睇你哋啲資料啦,咁所以我 35 哋就定咗個限期係2 月10 號,咁我都好希望各位係可以跟呢個嘅,因爲我哋實在 36 有太多文件要睇喇,所以早啲交畀我哋,就係對我哋嘅調查工作係有相當大嘅幫 37 助。 38

16 本謄本由 Epiq 編製,於指示會議中使用的英文詞句由獨立委員會秘書處補充。

但係如果你哋所提交嘅資料--因爲我哋都有表格,有個文字限制啦。如果你哋 1 覺得個文字限制係唔夠嘅,咁或者我亦都知道譬如有一啲嘅商會或者專業團體亦都 2 係就今次我哋要調查嘅議題係做一啲嘅個別研究,咁當然佢哋未必可能喺2 月10 3 號之前可以提交嘅,咁但係唔緊要嘅,請你哋同我哋嘅律師、我哋嘅秘書處聯絡, 4 你哋有乜嘢嘅資料同埋文件儘早交畀我哋。如果真係喺2 月10 號之前,大家係做 5 唔到嘅話,都希望你儘早交畀我哋。 6 我哋亦都喺呢度承諾,你哋所有公衆人士,包括宏福苑火災嘅災民提供畀我哋 7 嘅資料,我哋都會認真考慮,所以我會建議大家真係利用呢個機會向我哋嘅秘書處 8 提供我哋所需要調查嘅資料,有助我哋係瞭解嗰個火災嘅成因同埋點解蔓延得咁 9 快。所以我好希望,亦都喺度作出一個呼籲,請大家儘量儘早,亦都係2 月10 號 10 之前,就算唔得,我哋請你哋有乜嘢同我哋秘書處保持聯絡。如果冇其他事項嘅 11 話,我哋今日嘅聆訊就中止,好唔好? 12

13 11 時28 分會議押後 14

FD06241 | 2025_港澳台_香港宏福苑大火_Transcript-(Chinese)_20260320.pdf

分类:06_境外及港澳台调查报告 | 年份:2025 | 地域:香港 | 严重程度: | 场所: | 起火原因: | 来源格式:pdf

Evidential Hearing in relation to fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po

A Court Reporting Transcript by Epiq 1

就大埔宏福苑火災成立的獨立委員會

聽證會

高等法院原訟法庭陸啟康法官 陳健波議員 歐陽伯權博士

日期

第二天 2026 年3 月20 日

杜淦堃資深大律師, 李澍桓大律師, 俞匡庭大律師, 馮天榮大律師, 張天風大 律師, 李俊軒大律師, 陳佩恩律師, 許振軒律師 (受羅文錦律師樓指示代表 獨立委員會)

許偉強資深大律師代表置邦興業有限公司

孫靖乾資深大律師, 卓元暢大律師及劉逸冲大律師代表政府

李律仁資深大律師及柯愷欣大律師代表宏福苑業主立案法團第十二屆管理 委員會

Evidential Hearing in relation to fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po

A Court Reporting Transcript by Epiq 2

呂世杰資深大律師及阮文躍大律師代表市區重建局

何卓衡大律師代表置邦興業有限公司

劉思遠先生、張錦慧女士代表律政司

李曉亮先生代表競爭事務委員會

林子衡律師(受胡關李羅律師行指示) 代表合安管理有限公司

梁采寧律師及黎麗珊律師(受文禮律師行指示)代表宏泰消防工程有限公司

關有禮大律師代表梁秉基先生

鐘浩怡律師及何光偉律師(受韓潤燊律師樓指示) 代表黃俠然先生

譚俊傑大律師及李峰琦大律師代表宏福苑居民

Evidential Hearing in relation to fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po

A Court Reporting Transcript by Epiq 3

1 以下內容乃聆訊數碼錄音謄本 2

3 10 時00 分聆訊恢復 4

5 陸啟康法官:喺未開始陳詞之前咧,我有幾句説話想講嘅,雖然今日我嘅聲就唔係好清楚,但其 6 實今日我想希望講嘅嘢都係比較重要嘅。琴日我睇到有啲報道令我有少少不安嘅,我想 7 喺呢度講幾句説話。我希望傳媒嘅朋友咧都係準確幫我哋咧,發放我而家想講嘅説話, 8 將呢個信息係發放出去嘅。其實昨天我哋開案陳詞嗰度咧,我哋係聽到好多現階段我哋 9 嘅掌握到嘅新證供,或者係好多我哋以前未聽過嘅證供。但我發覺好多人好似就住呢啲 10 新嘅證供證供,對我哋今次嘅調查就已經作出新嘅結論,呢個就係我擔心嘅地方。昨天 11 我講過我哋委員會應該以公開公平同埋不偏不倚嘅態度去完成我哋嘅工作。我哋做到公 12 平、我哋做到公開,我哋將我哋現階段所有嘅資料話畀大家聽。但係我哋喺未聽審或者 13 未正審,亦都未聽受查方嘅解釋之前就作出結論咧,呢個唔係公平一個公平嘅做法,亦 14 都有違不偏不倚嘅原則。委員會嘅代表律師琴日嘅陳詞咧係必要咁將我哋現階段掌握到 15 嘅證據係攞出嚟,亦都係等證據有機會畀受查方知道點樣回應呢個嘅指控。但係咧呢個 16 調查,或者而家嘅證據,或者係代表律師團隊佢哋要求我哋去考慮啲事咧,唔代表係委 17 員會嘅最終結論。我哋呢個調查一定要公平,我哋要對死難者公平,我哋亦都要對受查 18 者公平。所以我希望大家…我哋係好明白,呢個係好理所當然,因為我哋聽到呢啲證據 19 之後,我哋大家對今次嗰個情緒、有好多情緒,亦都係我哋今次嘅痛苦真係好深。咁都 20 係咁樣嘅情況之下,我係好理解大家嘅感受,但我都希望大家保持客觀,係去看待我哋 21 今次嘅調查。我哋喺、一定喺現階段我們只係…一方面我哋掌握嘅證供,我哋最終嘅調 22 查咧,我哋都要聽埋受查方嘅回應,所以我都係希望大家對案件嘅責任問題唔好太早作 23 出最終嘅結論。咁呢個就係我喺今日係度段想講嘅説法,現階段就繼續係呢度繼續我哋 24 個陳詞,跟住就請代表委員會嘅律師繼續陳詞。 25 孫靖乾資深大律師:主席、兩位委員,我想睇我有冇呢個機會,都想代表政府就頭先主席嘅澄 26 清,我都想有一啲補充嘅,如果可以嘅話。咁我亦都代表政府就係就昨天即係獨立委員 27 會嘅律師團隊嘅開場嘅陳詞係有幾點係好簡短,但係我哋覺得係有重要性嘅關注,都希 28 望畀委員會同埋公眾去參考。正如主席頭先都講到,我哋亦都留意到社會各界嘅傳媒就 29 就獨立委員會代表大律師嘅開案陳詞係作出咗相當廣泛嘅報道,我哋對此存在一定嘅關 30 注,原因係在於呢啲報道喺有令到公眾之間造成錯誤嘅印象,以為獨立委員會已就火警 31 嘅起因、火勢蔓延嘅經過,以及導致重大傷亡嘅因素作出了結論同埋裁斷,而部分嘅報 32 道亦都對相關證據作出頗為詳盡嘅分析,並推論若干存在嘅影響、責任所在。政府係需 33

Evidential Hearing in relation to fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po

A Court Reporting Transcript by Epiq 4

要明確澄清啦,喺現階段作出上述嘅理解實屬言之尚早。時至今日,獨立委員會係尚未 1 有機會正式去聆聽任何涉事方嘅證據,以及喺一啲相關事件人士佢哋嘅陳述同埋證供 2 嘅。咁我哋呢一方面嘅關注亦都並非沒有基礎,因為喺獨立委員會嘅大律師嘅開案陳詞 3 嗰方面,傳媒係有非常廣泛同埋詳盡嘅報道,確實有可能令到一啲公眾誤以為相關嘅論 4 述已經構成獨立委員部分嘅調查結論。當然,我哋相信呢個絕對唔係獨立委員會嘅代表 5 大律師嘅原意,或者係本意,但係政府係覺得鑑於傳媒嘅報道,係有必要喺呢度鄭重去 6 澄清。而且當聆訊進入一個聽證會索取證據嘅階段嘅時候咧,政府同埋各涉事方均將有 7 充分嘅機會去傳召證人,就其他各方嘅證人進行詢問以及提交適當嘅陳詞。而獨立委員 8 會同時亦會聽取專家嘅證供,所以喺聽證會第一日,如果咁早嘅階段,任何人士包括傳 9 媒作出結論或者判斷,又或者被外界假定為已經作出一啲判斷係唔恰當嘅。咁有鑑於 10 此,我哋都非常之歡迎頭先主席喺作出嘅一個、就此作出關注同埋去提醒,咁我哋係非 11 常之歡迎。咁我哋最後就係想懇請即係各位留意,就是獨立委員會嘅律師團隊開場陳詞 12 所涵蓋嘅只係其中部分嘅材料,其他嘅若干嘅事項尚待更完整嘅背景同埋説明。而事實 13 上政府或者係其他嘅涉事方會對相關事宜有一個解釋或者説明,我哋都會喺我哋嘅開案 14 陳詞係會做一個簡略嘅説明同埋澄清,同埋係其後透過正式的證據咧逐一嘅加以繼續解 15 釋同埋説明嘅。因此,我哋再次強調咧,喺聽證會未完整聆取所有相關證據之前,任何 16 人如果喺去倉促下任何嘅結論咧,對涉事各方來講係有失公平同公允。咁最後,政府係 17 完全理解社會大眾對今次事件係有好強烈嘅關切,同埋係佢哋係感到非常之痛心,我哋 18 都十分充分去尊重。我哋只係懇切希望大家可以保持一個公平、公開同埋內心嘅立場, 19 等到獨立嘅調查可以依照正常嘅程序公平去呈現所有嘅證據,唯有咁樣做咧,最終嘅結 20 論同埋判斷咧先至可以建立喺一個完整、客觀嘅事實之上,既對呢一個宏福苑大火不幸 21 罹難嘅逝者以及傷者負責,亦都係對社會同埋其他持份者公平或者公正的。感謝獨立委 22 員會同埋各位。 23 陸啟康法官:我絕對理解會代表政府律師嘅立場或者聲明,呢個亦都係我嘅睇法。咁所以我喺呢 24 度強調,今次香港史無前例有咁大嘅災害,對我哋好多人真係好痛心,咁所以其實我哋 25 好多人係有情緒,我哋係可以理解嘅。但我諗呢個做法亦都好理所當然,同埋好正常。 26 咁但我覺得有啲嘢我哋都要喺適當提醒番各位同埋公眾嘅。咁所以其實我覺得呢啲呢樣 27 嘢大家都唔需要太過在意,但係呢個係重要嘅,我哋一定要保持客觀中立,我們真係聽 28 曬啲證供,我哋先可以對所有人公平公開、不偏不倚作出結論,我哋所有最終嘅結論會 29 喺報告書寫出嚟,亦都會有理解解釋,亦都會畀公眾監察嘅。咁所以大家一定要對我哋 30 有信心,我哋以公開公平同埋不偏不倚。但係之前,我都希望各位保持客觀,因為呢樣 31 嘢喺調查入邊係非常重要嘅,多謝各位。請杜資深大律師。 32 杜淦堃資深大律師:多謝主席。我諗委員會律師團隊同埋政府嘅律師團隊同主席閣下頭先所發表 33 嘅意見咧,其實個睇法都係一致。正如我哋喺之前指示會議所講,成個程序當然唔係日 34

Evidential Hearing in relation to fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po

A Court Reporting Transcript by Epiq 5

常發生嘅法庭程序,但係喺大原則方面受自然公義同埋程序公義相關嘅原則咧,我哋都 1 會牢牢緊記,例如對每一個涉事方,我哋會畀佢哋有充分嘅機會同埋時間去理解相關嘅 2 證據,同埋有可能需要佢哋回應嘅地方。所以就係因為咁,我哋喺開案陳詞嘅時候,我 3 哋務必要將有關主要、我哋覺得佢哋需要去回答嘅一啲地方,有關嘅證據攞出嚟,等大 4 家可以見到同埋有足夠嘅時間去回應。我諗冇人想見到嘅係我哋喺聆訊嘅最後階段先至 5 將一啲新嘅指控攞出嚟,呢個係第一件事。第二件事,就係可以用琴日其中陳詞一方面 6 作為一個例子,主席你會記得我都提過,喺因為時間嘅關係,因為我們都係琴日提過收 7 到海量文件,我哋冇可能喺開案陳詞裏邊全部都攞曬出嚟逐一一份、一份咁去研究嘅。 8 所以係呢個階段,我哋只可以將我哋認為最有用嘅證據、最關鍵嘅證據攞出嚟,等大家 9 可以去考慮。一個好好嘅例子就係琴日我哋提到消防員何偉豪嗰個情況,當然大家明白 10 他係為咗拯救災民英勇咁樣殉職,而係琴日嘅證據顯示,其實他係由25 樓出𨋢去嘗試拯 11 救27 樓被困市民嘅時候,最終喺31 樓、去到31 樓,再係大廈外面跌落嚟。有一啲嘅 12 揣測我們覺得可能對佢都係唔公平嘅,例如點解佢會一個人行啦?點解一個人上樓啦? 13 係咪單獨行事咧?係咪冇跟一定嘅指令咧?琴日我哋都講得很清楚,當時其實嗰情況係 14 相當混亂嘅,大家都理解。我想用呢個機會播多一條片畀大家睇,就係琴日我哋見到三 15 個消防員經過嗰個單車棚之後嘅一啲片段,之前嘅一啲片段,麻煩而家播出嚟(播放短 16 片)。大家稍候會見到三位消防員經過,最後一位係…大家見到仲留喺熒幕嗰位我哋相 17 信喺何偉豪,點解佢停低咗咧?其實佢係停低咗去幫助當時疏散緊嘅一啲居民。大家睇 18 過而家呢個片段琴日,我想只係用嚟做一個例子,就係當然我哋有海量嘅證據我哋唔會 19 逐一探討啦,喺開案陳詞嘅階段。但係對於何消防員當時點解可能係單獨行事咧,其實 20 有一個解釋,其實他都想幫疏散緊嘅一啲災民,咁之後我哋認為佢應該係想盡快追番佢 21 嘅同事,但係結果就走散咗,呢一度我諗我哋到此為止,因為之後同消防亦都會探討相 22 關嘅事宜啦,所以喺我繼續之前,我諗有第三點,相信主席同埋大家都會同意,我哋呢 23 啲説話其實絕對唔係想去幹預媒體或者新聞報道我哋有關呢個委員會聆訊所發生嘅程序 24 同埋證據,我哋好尊重媒體佢哋嘅報道,但係唔可否認因為事件可能觸動到大家嘅一啲 25 嘅神經,或者引起一啲嘅回憶,所以引起咗好多其他嘅揣測,準確嘅報道當然對委員會 26 嘅工作,對於大眾都係非常之重要,我諗呢一點大家都係同意嘅。 27 陸啟康法官:其實我諗我真係要重新再解釋,呢個係一個好理所當然嘅做法,咁慘痛嘅一場火災 28 令到咁多,我哋一定係有情緒,廣泛關注、報道係應該嘅,亦都係理所當然嘅。但因 29 為、因為呢啲情緒咧,其實我哋好多時就會睇到有啲問題出咗嚟,我哋都係希望喺現階 30 段提醒,亦都希望各位公眾保持客觀睇曬成事件嘅事實,咁我哋先至做出最終一啲嘅, 31 就最終責任問題作出最終嘅結論。 32 杜淦堃資深大律師:多謝主席。喺現階段,我想番番去琴日完結陳詞之前提到嘅下一個題目,我 33 哋會審視發泡膠板嘅問題。有證據顯示承建商為保護宏福苑各單位嘅窗户,免受外牆鑽 34

Evidential Hearing in relation to fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po

A Court Reporting Transcript by Epiq 6

孔或者維修工程之後遭到損壞,廣泛使用發泡膠板覆蓋窗户,相信有關嘅證據係非常之 1 清楚。委員會當然會聽取專家就發泡膠點樣去助燃、助長火勢嘅蔓延,同埋嗰個實質嘅 2 影響去作出有關嘅裁定,我哋將會同專家探討發泡膠係咪使火勢喺建築物外牆打破有關 3 嘅窗户,蔓延去單位室內嘅其中一個原因。我哋已經提及咗其實大量嘅住户係喺單位內 4 喪生嘅,發泡膠品係咪加速咗外牆火勢去各單位,呢個係一個我哋需要審視嘅地方。大 5 火當日承建商使用嘅發泡膠板遮蓋咗窗户,亦都有另外一個後果,亦都有遮蓋咗室內住 6 户嘅視線,佢哋睇唔到火勢嘅發展,見不到外面嘅情況,亦都會影響佢哋嗰個疏散。我 7 哋已經提過關於維修、樓宇維修裏面可燃材料使用一般嘅規則同埋各政府部門對呢啲規 8 則是否適用於發泡膠板上高持有一啲唔同嘅意見,我哋認為不論現行嘅法律或者規則如 9 何理解,其實樓宇維修工程裏邊使用一啲易燃嘅臨時材料,例如一啲棚架腳板,或者發 10 泡膠板去遮住有關嘅窗户,其實都應該受到合適嘅監管。從一開始我哋睇到其實承建商 11 係明白到用發泡膠板遮蓋窗户係有一定嘅風險嘅,我哋翻查咗喺2024 年6 月17 日嘅工 12 作會議記錄,喺第10 段有咁嘅記載嘅:“當宏業決定使用發泡膠板遮蓋窗户,而當時顧 13 問,即係鴻毅就表示發泡膠板為易燃物品,並於火災時產生大量濃煙,應儘量避免使 14 用,並建議改用隔板裝置。”所以喺一早、喺比較初嘅階段嘅時候其實已經有提出過。 15 而宏業嘅回應就話“隔板喺保護窗户方面不如發泡膠板理想。”所以佢哋堅持使用發泡 16 膠板。最後鴻毅係咁講嘅:“各樣物料均有其好壞處,但始終認為發泡膠板存較大嘅風 17 險,如承建商堅持使用,必須自行考慮風險及制定應變方案。”接住落嚟喺之後一個 18 月,7 月17 號,宏業就致函鴻毅,佢哋指出喺7 月16 號嘅工作會議上高已經批准使用 19 發泡膠板去遮蓋呢啲窗户。我哋冇揾到7 月16 號嘅工作會議嘅記錄,但我哋注意到喺7 20 月18 號咧,鴻毅係簽署咗有關嘅文件嘅。接住落嚟第一批發泡膠板就喺之後嗰個月, 21 2024 年8 月嘅下旬就落單,我哋喺警方檢取文件裏邊瞭解到以下幾項事情:第一,海德 22 營造工程有限公司係喺2024 年8 月26 日、9 月13 日同埋9 月19 日向供應商湖北宇博 23 節能新材料有限公司落咗三個發泡膠板嘅訂單。海德係分包商,佢哋係負責宏建、宏 24 泰、宏昌嘅外牆粉飾工程。值得注意嘅係,喺9 月19 號嘅訂單其實係明確咁寫咗,海 25 德所訂嘅發泡膠板係非阻燃。雖然另外兩個訂單其實未有註明發泡膠板係咪具阻燃功 26 能,但係我哋留意到佢哋單價同9 月19 號呢個訂單都係一樣嘅,即係每立方米人民幣 27 350-360 蚊。證據亦都顯示海德嘅聯繫…同佢聯繫、同佢有關嘅公司恆豐營造有限公司 28 將部分發泡膠板就轉售畀一家叫做新南方建築有限公司(音)。新南方係工程嘅二判, 29 負責宏新、宏盛同埋宏志閣嘅外牆維修工程。主席、兩位委員,具體嘅情況係咁樣嘅, 30 根據恆豐一名文員嘅説法,一位嚴楚基(音)先生係恆豐同埋海德嘅老闆,恆豐係向新 31 南方出售發泡膠板,我們都揾到4 張嘅發票,發票嘅日期分別為8 月27 日、9 月3 日、 32 9 月9 日同埋9 月17 日。我哋因此相信,或者有理由相信,海德得到嗰啲任何嘅易燃嘅 33 發泡膠板應該唔只係單單用咗喺宏建、宏泰同埋宏昌,亦都有可能喺宏新、宏盛同埋宏 34

Evidential Hearing in relation to fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po

A Court Reporting Transcript by Epiq 7

志閣同樣有使用。接着落嚟係9 月12 日一個工作會議記錄上高,出席者有ISS 啦、宏 1 業啦、鴻毅、業主立案法團主席同埋市建局嘅代表。我想帶大家睇一睇記錄嘅第19 段, 2 大家睇到管理委員會收到居民嘅提供嘅影片,顯示遮蓋窗户嘅發泡膠板係可燃嘅物料, 3 亦都附帶咗一啲錄影(播放短片)。宏業嘅解釋就話喺嗰個階段使用嘅發泡膠板係唔會 4 因為用煙頭而被燃燒嘅,但如果明火持續燃燒則另作別論。呢個係透過WhatsApp 通知 5 管理委員會嘅內容,大家見到右手邊:“如果用明火當然會令好多物料燃燒,包括竹棚 6 或棚網。”宏業亦都進一步表示咗:“喺法例沒有定明不能使用相關物料,以往維修工 7 程都會使用。”呢個係佢哋嘅講法。同時宏業表示會提供影片證據,去支持發泡膠板唔 8 會因為煙頭而被燃點嘅。嗱,業主立案法團向我哋嘅委員會提供咗影片,顯示煙頭燃點 9 發泡膠板嘅測試結果,睇嚟係唔易燃嘅(播放影片)。主席,但係喺另一方面有居民喺 10 Facebook 發佈影片顯示發泡膠板極易燃,我哋可以用其中一位居民譯音王國希(音)先 11 生喺9 月23 號向1823 投訴熱線提交嘅影片截圖。佢嘅標題係,大家會見到“封窗膠版 12 係易燃物”,嗱,我哋當然睇到居民、有居民嘅關注,承建商當然有承建商嘅説法,中 13 間存在咗一啲嘅矛盾,所以喺當時喺情況,就喺10 月10 號一個工作會議上高,宏業表 14 示“新一批發泡膠板將於之後嗰個禮拜送達,到時會對該材料咧進行呢個燃燒測試 15 嘅。”大家見到當時嘅記錄。但係可能大家未喺公開嘅文件裏面睇到嘅就係,喺呢個工 16 作會議之前,當時嘅立案法團主席徐滿柑先生喺10 月2 日曾經透過WhatsApp 同宏業嘅 17 Gordon(何建業)先生其實有一個討論嘅。我想大家睇一睇佢哋嘅討論,其中重點如 18 下:大家會見到何建業問:“我想問清楚,既然居民覺得FOAM BOARD 咁大意見,第二 19 及第三期會否更改2.5mm 厚啲中空板?”徐滿柑話:可否都係揾FOAM BOARD,但冇咁 20 易燃?”何建業:“我再問嚇廠,但即使有的話我都唔夠膽擔保一定、係一定有阻燃 21 的。”徐滿柑:“影段片,燒完會自己熄就可以,不用(English Spoken)。當然,影 22 嗰時唔好咁流。”何建業:“收到,如我訂到可於第二期、第三期工程轉用。但注意, 23 第一期無法更換。”嗱,當然,呢一個WhatsApp 可能係有前文後理,可能佢哋之間有 24 一啲嘅對話係冇喺我哋見到嘅資料裏面反映啦,但係相信如果就咁睇,我哋見到嘅證 25 據,至少徐滿柑先生同埋宏業都係知道新一批發泡膠板可能並冇阻燃嘅保證。即使真係 26 訂咗新一批嘅阻燃發泡膠板,亦都係只可以安裝喺一啲尚未有發泡膠板嘅窗户上高,換 27 句話裝咗嗰啲咧就會繼續係冇阻燃能力㗎喇。去到10 月26 日嘅工作會議上高,宏業表 28 示新一批嘅發泡膠板已經送到,佢哋説明物料已到,宏業亦即場用火機測試是不能燃點 29 的。呢一個講法似乎同其他證據都係相符,喺2024 年嘅10 月初,負責宏仁閣同埋宏道 30 閣外牆維修嘅分包商城造工程有限公司嘅姚錦輝先生,佢係從供應商王志明(音),一 31 位來自武漢漢樹新材料有限公司,嗰度取得一塊發泡膠嘅樣本,嗰一批物料附近有湖北 32 省建築材料節能測試中心嘅簽發嘅阻燃證書。喺同年嘅10 月20 日,我哋知道海德係向 33 武漢漢高(音)訂購咗一批發泡膠板,訂單其實係好清楚咁列明咗為阻燃發泡膠板,嗰 34

Evidential Hearing in relation to fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po

A Court Reporting Transcript by Epiq 8

單價係每0.02 立方米人民幣16.5 元。呢個係我們頭先提過湖北宇博供應嘅非阻燃發泡 1 膠板有關嗰個定價咧,如果計番每平方尺或者每平方米咧是雙倍嘅價錢嘅。隨後海德將 2 部分呢啲新訂購嘅發泡膠亦都係轉售咗畀新南方。去到舊年,2024 年嘅12 月9 日,城 3 造工程嘅姚錦輝先生亦都進一步向武漢公司訂購咗發泡膠板,大家見到有關武漢公司嘅 4 阻燃證書。我哋可以從現有嘅證據推斷到以下嘅事情,喺2024 年10 月後訂購嘅新批阻 5 燃發泡膠板,其實只會安裝喺未覆蓋有發泡膠板嘅商户上高,我哋都可以推論裝咗發泡 6 膠板,而係唔具備阻燃功能嘅發泡膠嘅窗户,佢哋會繼續用之前訂購嘅,情況同棚網可 7 能有少少類似,宏業似乎將一啲有阻燃性能,比較貴嘅物料,同一啲冇阻燃性能,比較 8 平嘅物料混合使用。無論如何,對於每批發泡膠板係咪真係有阻燃功能同埋可唔可以使 9 用喺、可以使用其他物料去代替呢啲發泡膠板?呢啲係、當然係嚴肅同埋嚴重嘅問題, 10 亦都係有待專家之後向委員會説明嘅。與此同時,我哋喺另一方面就見到其實宏福苑嘅 11 居民亦都有向有關部門反映佢哋對於呢2010 年個問題嘅擔心同埋憂慮,尤其是係消防 12 處同埋ICU,我哋之後會睇一睇嚇佢哋嘅投訴同埋當時嘅處理方法。首先係消防處,消 13 防處喺2024 年9 月25 日派員到場檢查有關大批發泡膠囤積嘅投訴,所以當時嘅投訴就 14 係嗰個量同埋有關嘅囤積。我哋已經提及有一位譯音王國希先生係喺2024 年9 月23 日 15 向1823 投訴啦,佢亦都附上咗發泡膠嘅膠片,我哋可以睇一睇佢當時嘅投訴。而佢特 16 別,大家亦都見到佢嘅投訴信息裏邊亦都好清楚咁講咗:“有居民自行拿了屋旁碎料發 17 泡膠進行測試,發現這些發泡膠是易燃物料,不是有阻燃特性。”我哋跟住睇一睇當時 18 消防處嘅回應,根據消防處助理處長翁錦雄(音)先生,佢提供畀委員會嘅證人陳述書 19 第21 同埋第22 段,佢嘅講法係消防處喺9 月25 號下午4 時40 分係到場巡查,發現宏 20 福苑內有一定數量嘅發泡膠板啦,消防處認為,而佢嘅原文就係:“佢哋認為呢一個並 21 唔係一個不尋常嘅情況。”所以佢哋喺2024 年10 月3 日就用電話通知投訴人王先生, 22 就指出有建築物窗外固定發泡膠板呢個問題咧似乎就唔屬於佢哋管轄嘅範疇啦。而當 23 日,消防處就結束咗呢一個投訴嘅調查或者檔案。喺大概兩個星期之後,即係2024 年 24 10 月4 號,前業主立案法團副主席一位麥志雄(音)先生(English Spoken),佢向 25 消防處再次投訴,佢指出:“窗户被高度易燃嘅發泡膠板遮蓋,有極高風險,佢想請求 26 消防處協助調查同埋測試有關嘅物料。”大家睇到佢用英文撰寫嘅電郵。就呢個投訴, 27 消防處一名高級消防隊長,譯音吳永光(音)先生喺佢嘅證人供詞陳述書裏邊回應咗呢 28 個投訴,我哋睇一睇第7 段,注意到可能係佢嘅電郵、佢呢段嘅中間基本上就係話,佢 29 嘅原文就係話“佢認為呢一個並不是消防處所處理嘅管轄範圍。”當然,消防處稍候有 30 關嘅證人同埋代表律師都回向委員會陳述佢哋就呢個發泡膠問題上高嘅立場啦,我哋喺 31 現階段想向委員會陳述嘅係根據消防條例第7 條,消防處係有責任按情況所需就防火措 32 施及火警危險提供意見。所以基於呢一條條例第7 條,消防處嘅回應,委員會覺得係咪 33 恰當或者佢有冇其他嘅考慮咧?我諗稍候我哋會有進一步嘅證據。我想轉一轉去睇下 34

Evidential Hearing in relation to fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po

A Court Reporting Transcript by Epiq 9

ICU 嘅回應,大家琴日聽過ICU 處理呢件事上高有一位古小平先生(音),佢喺9 月25 1 日去到現場,佢見到發泡膠板標識為CO2 生態健康地暖板,存放咗喺地面層,亦都見到 2 貼咗喺電梯大堂個窗户上高嘅。古先生嘅證詞,大家喺螢幕上高會睇到啦,佢嘅講法就 3 係“佢隨後向被ICU 借調嘅屋宇署顧問,一位(English Spoken)謝先生”,好似有少 4 少故障,唔緊要。我可以、有少少技術上嘅問題,但我可以同委員會口頭陳述佢嘅講 5 法,我諗喺現階段。古先生嘅證詞就係話:“佢向被借調到ICU 嘅屋宇署顧問一位謝先 6 生去諮詢,當時古先生係獲告知使用發泡膠板遮蓋窗户嘅做法不屬於建築工程,英文係 7 “(English Spoken)”,亦不需要符合阻燃嘅要求,所以做法唔會被視為未經批准嘅 8 建築工程。”呢個係佢喺第一份證人供詞第60 段(i)嘅講法。因為佢呢個講法,我哋 9 後來亦都攞到(English Spoken)謝先生嘅回覆,佢喺、其實喺剛剛一個多星期之前, 10 3 月11 號謝先生回覆咗指示我哋嘅律師樓嘅答案嘅來信,大家可以睇到佢嘅答案有幾個 11 重點嘅:第一,我用中文略略咁去解釋,謝先生表示佢冇印象古小平先生曾經就宏福苑 12 發泡膠板嘅問題向佢作出口頭嘅諮詢。謝先生嘅講法就係按照政府慣例,公務員如果就 13 涉及生命安全嘅問題尋求正式意見,必須保留書面記錄或確認。佢認為對於古先生所謂 14 冇一個書面記錄嘅講法咧,對佢可能唔係好公平。第二、第二點大家可能喺熒幕光都睇 15 到喇,古先生聲稱係謝先生話畀佢知使用發泡膠板遮蓋窗户咧係並唔規定禁止嘅,但係 16 謝先生嘅講法就係從一個專業角度嚟睇咧,佢唔覺得係一個成立嘅講法。佢講到自己曾 17 經係政府嘅指定官員,協助調查香港對2017 年英國格倫費爾大火大廈嘅應對,政府有 18 研究嗰件事情嘅影響。嗰次嘅火災有一個關鍵嘅原因,就係建築外牆嘅材料裏面有高度 19 易燃嘅發泡膠材料。謝先生嘅講法就是基於佢呢個經歷,佢對外牆使用發泡膠物料其實 20 係非常謹慎,因此佢覺得佢係唔可能建議任何人使用發泡膠板係一個可以接受嘅做法。 21 第三點,古先生亦都認為臨時使用嘅發泡膠板不受規管,但係謝先生就認為其實係應該 22 有法律規管嘅。嗱,我哋睇過有關建築物建造條例第16 條(1)(b)嘅規定,承造商 23 喺進行工程嘅時候必須使用適當嘅預防措施,而謝先生又指出發泡膠板因為可燃並增加 24 火險,將佢用於遮蓋窗户不應視為適當嘅預防措施。所以因此即使發泡膠板係臨時咁樣 25 去使用,佢嘅睇法係:“呢個都係違反第16 條(1)(b)嘅相關規定。”大家睇到謝 26 先生畀我哋嘅回覆同埋古先生嘅陳述,表面嚟睇係有衝突,呢啲問題我哋一定要喺呢個 27 聽證裏邊會加以驗證。如果謝先生嘅講法正確,則意味着可燃嘅發泡膠板固定喺大廈外 28 牆極度危險,呢個亦都係一個鮮為人知嘅風險,唔係一個鮮為人知嘅風險,因為喺英國 29 嘅格倫費爾火災,其實呢一樣嘢已經係公開咗㗎喇。當然我哋去研究呢件事嘅時候,我 30 哋都要去考慮古先生嘅立場,對ICU,對當時相關法例嘅理解係唔係正確咧?相關嘅法 31 規有冇嚴格執行咧?如我哋所見建築物建造規例第8 部分裏面提到外牆以及外牆覆蓋物 32 必須採用不可燃物料,第16 條亦都要求承建商喺建築工程時採取適當嘅預防措施。我哋 33 相信呢啲係基本嘅防火保障,目的係防止外牆可以造成火勢蔓延嘅風險。當然,ICU 就 34

Evidential Hearing in relation to fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po

A Court Reporting Transcript by Epiq 10

似乎認為有關嘅規定唔受現行法例去規管,因為有關嘅發泡膠板係臨時使用嘅,但係我 1 哋知道本案裏面有關嘅發泡膠板係一路使用咗15 個月。值得考慮嘅就係如果按照ICU 2 嘅解釋,我哋對於一幢其實無人居住而重建嘅大廈嘅結構工程裏面會有非常嚴格嘅法律 3 去規管,然而同樣嘅法例同埋規則其實係唔適用於一啲睇可能臨時工程,但係工地係住 4 滿居民嘅住宅裏面。呢一個問題係我哋需要深究嘅問題,點解一座無人住嘅大廈受到嘅 5 保障似乎比一幢有人住、住滿居民嘅大廈為高咧?有關嘅邏輯同埋有關嘅法規,之後相 6 信聽完有關證人供詞之後,大家都會作進一步嘅陳詞。另一點值得注意嘅就係喺2024 7 年11 月12 日,ICU 嘅劉嘉敏(English Spoken)佢發送去1823 公共郵件嘅裏邊佢係 8 咁樣講嘅:“我哋瞭解到…”,大家睇第4 段:“我哋瞭解到現時並沒有相關條例要求 9 臨時保護材料據阻燃標準,然而我哋得知承建商正在嘗試使用具阻燃標準發泡膠作為窗 10 户臨時保護。”值得留意嘅係佢呢一個講法其實係唔係當時經ICU 已經核實咧?嗱,首 11 先我哋知道似乎現有嘅證據睇到,ICU 係連用打火機對發泡膠進行簡單嘅測試都似乎係 12 冇做過嘅。再者向委員會披露嘅證據裏邊都冇顯示ICU 曾經攞過任何文件去核實發泡膠 13 板嘅可燃性,我哋亦都未見到任何嘅證據顯示ICU 曾經向承建商索取有關發泡膠板嘅證 14 書啦、測試報告啦,或者合規性嘅文件,如果有相關嘅文件,我哋亦都希望儘快披露。 15 ICU 喺嗰一年嘅11 月到…即係24 年11 月到25 年6 月期間咧另外進行咗四次現場嘅巡 16 查嘅,而記錄表示咧,佢哋啲講法就係佢哋並冇特別留意呢啲易燃嘅發泡膠板,因為巡 17 查嘅目的係針對其他投訴,並非針對發泡膠板。主席、兩位委員,發泡膠板嘅問題其實 18 似乎喺工程嘅期間喺一路都係困擾住大家,而有關部門亦都知悉居民係有呢個關注。對 19 於呢啲投訴嘅處理方法同埋消防處、同埋ICU 就呢啲問題嘅回覆咧,相信喺日後嘅證供 20 裏面佢哋會向委員會去交代。以上係我哋對發泡膠板嘅陳詞。接下嚟我想去到另一個題 21 目,我哋探討過外牆使用物料,我想轉去討論所謂FSI 消防裝置同埋設備上高嘅監管同 22 埋責任問題。有關嘅FSI 其實係有兩方面嘅:第一方面係火警警報系統,我哋俗、英文 23 簡寫“(English Spoken)”,正如大家都留意到宏福苑8 座大廈嘅火警警報系統早前 24 被關閉,其中一至兩座嘅系統則由ISS 先生嘅林文恩(音)先生後來係啓動咗消防、泵 25 房用嘅手動方式去開番嘅。我哋較早前亦都見過有一啲居民嘗試去用嗰個有關佢嘅樓層 26 裏面嘅警報系統,但係係失效嘅。大家都知道喺逃走時候系統嘅重要性,我哋唔重複 27 喇。其次大家琴日都睇過資料顯示消防栓同埋喉轆亦都未能運作,有居民嘗試用喉轆亦 28 都浪費咗疏散嘅時間。有關嘅防火法規係咁樣講嘅:“根據消防裝置及設備條例第95B 29 章第8 條,建築物業主或者業主立案法團係有責任確保所有消防裝置同埋設備時刻保持 30 有效運作,並聘用註冊嘅消防設備承辦商每年至少全面檢查一次建築物嘅系統。有關承 31 辦商英文簡寫係(English Spoken).年度檢查之後,註冊嘅消防承辦商會向消防處提 32 交一份消防裝置及設備證書,有關簡稱FS-251,呢個就好似消防物消防系統,如果講得 33 禮俗小小,每年好似做個(English Spoken)咁樣去睇下佢哋嘅運作。每次註冊消防裝 34

Evidential Hearing in relation to fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po

A Court Reporting Transcript by Epiq 11

置嘅承辦商檢查系統嘅時候咧必須簽發呢張FS-251 嘅證書,如果有關嘅承辦商發現主 1 要消防嘅裝置同埋設備,例如嗰水泵、火警警報系統失效咧,佢哋要係FS-251 上去註 2 明有損壞,同埋列出未完成、未完成嗰個項目嗰個故障嗰個原因啦,即係未整番嗰個原 3 因。建築物嘅業主都有責任聘請承辦商進行有關嘅修理嘅。另外一方面,如果維修工程 4 需要將主要嘅消防裝置同埋設備通宵關閉或者連超過24 小時關閉咧,佢哋亦都需要嚴格 5 咁樣遵守消防處通函第2021 年1 號,即係我哋英語就係(English Spoken),嗰責任 6 要係24 小時內向消防處提交消防設備嘅關閉通知書,有關嗰個文件叫做SDN。消防處喺 7 收到SDN 之後,就近嘅消防人員會喺24 小時裏面進行一個現場嘅風險評估,確定大廈 8 管理方係採取咗需要嘅臨時措施啦,例如大廈管理方面提供額外嘅、一啲額外嘅滅火器 9 或者安排一啲24 小時嘅消防巡查。而當註冊嘅消防裝置承辦商對損壞嘅消防裝置設備進 10 行維修之後咧,佢哋係要提交另外兩份文件嘅,第一,(English Spoken)表格有一個 11 最後一個部分,叫做第三部分:恢復消防裝置,呢個係一個聲明去講出FSI 已經停用結 12 束,即係開始番喇。我哋喺呢個工程裏面其實都見過有關嘅證據,大家見到嘅就係宏泰 13 消防工程有限公司(English Spoken)喺2022 年5 月6 日提交嘅(English Spoken) 14 表格。Sorry,要講清楚啲嘅就係頭先有個口誤,係佢哋去籤嘅,呢間公司籤嘅其中一 15 份表格,唔係呢個工程佢哋籤嘅表格,所以只係同一間公司。佢哋都有提交一份、另外 16 一份我哋頭先睇過嘅FS-251 證書證明系統已經經過測試並恢復正常。嗱,各位,我哋 17 已經調查咗當日火警警報系統同埋消防栓,同埋喉轆停用嘅情況,而當時嘅細節亦都係 18 非常重要。我想用呢個機會,用少少時間向委員會陳述。宏福苑其實係有兩間註冊消防 19 裝置嘅承辦商,第一就係我哋提過、啱啱提過嘅宏泰(English Spoken),第二就係中 20 華發展工程有限公司,我哋用一個順時序嘅方法去睇一睇佢哋嘅工作。首先睇一睇宏泰 21 嘅角色同埋責任,喺2025 年3 月5 號,ISS 聘請咗宏泰作為宏福苑8 座大廈嘅消防裝置 22 同埋設備年度嘅、進行年度嘅檢測,所以係ISS 聘請佢哋嘅。有關嘅檢測係2025 年3 23 月24 號到26 號進行,喺2025 年嘅3 月31 日,宏泰就完成咗年度嘅檢查,當時佢哋發 24 現宏福苑8 座大廈嘅消防裝備大致符合消防安全要求,但係有個別嘅裝置係有損壞,需 25 要維修嘅,呢個情況當然不足為奇。譬如我哋見到有關嘅證據就提到ISS 係表示咗有啲 26 消防栓同埋喉轆系統咧係某些樓層相關嘅噴嘴係要更嘅。宏泰亦都認為咧天台嘅消防水 27 缸當時係並冇滲漏嘅情況,呢一方面係值得留意嘅。好喇,我哋去到2025 年10 月2 28 日,ISS 聘請咗宏泰就年度檢查裏面發現嘅缺陷進行一啲嘅維修工程,相關嘅工程喺10 29 月16 號展開。宏泰提交嘅證人陳述書裏面其實好清楚咁講到有關維修工程嘅情況,根據 30 宏泰員工一位唐慶倫先生所描述,維修工程嘅第一階段係喺10 月16 號、17 號進行,做 31 咗兩日。當時佢係同另外兩位同事前往宏福苑,更換特定嘅消防喉轆嘅嗰個閂掣。修復 32 工程之後咧,佢同同事蔡金龍先生就被派去天台重新打開消防水缸嘅水閘掣,係測試嘅 33 時候佢哋發現有關嘅消防喉係冇水流出,所以佢哋去天台就去檢視有關嘅水缸,當時佢 34

Evidential Hearing in relation to fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po

A Court Reporting Transcript by Epiq 12

哋發現水缸冇水,而佢哋發現水缸係曾經完成一啲瓷磚嘅工程,所以隨後ISS 嘅林文恩 1 先生同佢哋講,其實8 座嘅水箱工程都有進行維修,所以佢哋放咗水箱裏面啲水。呢個 2 係16 號同17 號嘅情況,喺及後11 月17 日亦都有咁樣嘅事情發生,係呢段時間宏泰嘅 3 外判商,一位梁頌文(音)先生對逃生樓梯嘅緊急照明系統同埋消防喉轆嘅噴嘴、拉 4 輪、噴水箱都進行咗維修嘅。當時咧,與本案最相關嘅係宏泰亦都對火警警報系統進行 5 咗維修。喺11 月19 號李俊賢先生同埋王福華(音)先生去咗宏福苑對警鐘同埋警報系 6 統,我哋俗稱嗰個“撳手”,當時咧佢哋嘅講法就係維修期間為咗避免觸電,維修人員 7 必須關閉消防泵房裏邊嘅消防泵總電掣,所以總電掣係因為咁樣而熄咗。隨後李俊賢先 8 生就前往宏福苑8 座大廈地下嘅消防泵總電掣,發現其實呢啲電掣全部都係被關閉,李 9 先生嘅講法係佢理解消防泵總電掣同時都控制咗火警警報系統嗰個電源,意味着8 座大 10 廈嘅水泵同埋火警警報系統全部都係停止咗運作嘅。接住落嚟,李俊賢先生係隨即透過 11 WhatsApp 向宏泰報告咗宏福苑消防泵被關呢一件事,大家睇到左下角。隨後李先生就向 12 ISS 管理處一位鄭紫盈(音)女士進行查詢,當時佢獲告知嘅就係大廈處於大維修工 13 程,8 座大廈嘅消防裝置同埋設備都係暫停運作,並且已經向消防處提交咗消防設備關 14 閉通知書,即係我哋頭先講嘅SDN,佢哋俗稱“掛牌”。另外一名證人王建華先生,佢 15 同李俊賢先生嘅講法其實係類似嘅,佢補充就講到鄭紫盈女士同佢解釋,消防水缸當時 16 係被維修當中,所以承辦商要求大廈係關閉消防泵總電掣,呢個係當時佢獲告知嘅説 17 法,大家可以睇到有關係熒幕上高佢第一聲嘅講法。過兩日,11 月21 日,李俊賢先生 18 就再返到去宏福苑,繼續喺H 座嘅火警警報系統同埋嗰個撳手嗰個維修工程進行修復嘅 19 工作,完成咗之後咧,佢將維修嘅情況同埋照片發咗畀宏泰做報告嘅,大家見到佢當時 20 拍低嘅照片。綜觀頭先睇過唔同證人嘅講法同埋相關嘅記錄有幾點我哋可以留意嘅,如 21 果我重組一下。2025 年10 月16 同埋17 日,宏泰發現消防栓喉轆系統係冇辦法運作, 22 原因係因為消防水缸冇水。第二,火警警報系統,宏泰喺11 月19 日發現消防泵總電掣 23 係閂咗,同時咧這個導致火警警報系統都係停止使用。第三,宏泰就並未就消防栓喉轆 24 系統或者火警警報系統嘅停止使用向消防處去提交我哋頭先提供、講述嗰個SDN。呢個 25 情況我哋可以想象到,宏泰其實係唔係應該喺嗰個時候交一個SDN 咧?第四,如果宏泰 26 明知道消防泵總電掣關閉係因為嗰水箱有復修工程,佢係咪應該去查證或者進一步探討 27 呢一個講法呢?係咪淨係從ISS 員工得知呢個事件後就停落嚟唔繼續跟進咧?關於最後 28 一點,我哋係消防處裏邊亦都睇到有關關鍵嘅證據,消防處的證據係一位姜世明(音) 29 先生嘅證人陳述書裏邊,係咁樣講嘅,或者我歸納以下兩點啦:第一,消防栓同埋喉轆 30 系統,同埋火警警報系統其實係共用同一個電源,如果消防泵電掣嘅處於Off(即係關 31 閉)嘅位置咧,兩套系統都會冇電,使用唔到。另外一方面咧,我哋亦都係留意到一 32 點,實際嗰個控制板面上高其實係有兩個開關嘅:第一個叫做水泵開關掣,英文叫做 33 (English Spoken),另一個叫做控制主用泵,另一個叫做控制備用泵(English 34

Evidential Hearing in relation to fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po

A Court Reporting Transcript by Epiq 13

Spoken)。如果係需要維修水管或者水箱,其實係應該保持消防泵總掣處於開關嘅狀 1 態,適用嘅做法其實係只係關閉兩個水泵嘅開關。如果佢哋係用咗呢一個做法,雖然水 2 泵嘅電源被中斷,其實係有方法繼續保持火警警報系統嘅運作,換句話講唔需要閂個大 3 掣,可以閂個獨立嘅掣。有關呢一方面嘅事情,相信其後宏泰同埋消防處嘅口供會對呢 4 件事有關鍵嘅影響。另一個註冊消防裝置嘅承辦商喺今次調查裏面會有重要角色嘅係一 5 間叫做中華發展(English Spoken)嘅公司,中華發展亦都配合咗我哋嘅工作,提交咗 6 佢哋董事梁秉基先生嘅證人陳述書啦,另外仲有一位係嚴才華(音)嘅證人陳述書。如 7 果簡單咁講,梁先生同埋嚴先生其實喺證人陳述書很坦率咗、咁樣去承認咗事情中間係 8 發現咗一啲比較大嘅疏失。基於兩份陳述書其實嗰個內容重疊比較多,我想帶大家只係 9 睇其中一份,睇一睇梁先生嗰一份。有四個主要方面我想委員會留意嘅:首先,我哋講 10 一講關於消防處事先通知消防裝備停用嘅問題,正如我哋頭先所提到嗰註冊消防裝備註 11 冊承辦商如果有意關閉有關嘅系統咧,消防栓喉轆系統嘅時候,應該向消防處提供一個 12 SDN。梁先生嘅證供就話喺2025 年3 月,宏業聯絡咗中華發展,並詢問提交SDN 及消防 13 處嘅報價,因為做呢樣嘢要錢嘅。佢哋當時嘅報價係要暫停宏福苑8 座大廈嘅消防栓同 14 埋喉轆系統,從而進行消防水缸嘅維修工程。中華發展其實喺當時3 月25 日提交咗有 15 關嘅報價單,大家可以睇到嗰報價單,大家睇到內容涉及一啲我哋已經提及過嘅證書 16 啦,第一就係向消防處提交FS-251,第三項。通知需要對消防裝置嘅裝備進行復修啦, 17 第二就係提交消防裝置關閉關閉通知書,即係SDN 佢哋都報咗價,通知佢停用啦。大家 18 見到:“貴司預計停一年。”跟住(c)提及供應額外嘅滅火器。嗱,呢個報價報咗冇幾 19 耐係被接受嘅,問題就係中華發展有冇真係擔當過任何監督嘅角色?事實上,佢係咪淨 20 係為宏業提供有關嘅文件畀消防處,即係FS-251 同埋SDN?嗱,例如中華發展喺2025 21 年4 月7 日提交E 座嘅FS-251 同埋SDN 可以造成一個好好嘅例子,如果我哋睇番梁先 22 生第30 段證人供詞裏邊所提到嘅事情,相信大家會清楚當時佢哋嘅做法。基本上佢嗰講 23 法就係話申請提交之前,中華發展其實冇親自到宏福苑瞭解現有嘅消防栓或者喉轆系 24 統,或者進行相關嘅維修工程。為咗呢啲工程系統去考慮嗰個必要性,或者當時需要啲 25 乜嘢額外嘅消防措施。換句話講,問題係喺證據裏邊我哋睇唔到有任何註冊消防裝置嘅 26 承辦商曾經對暫停使用呢啲消防栓同喉轆系統嘅必要性進行任何評估。亦都冇人去考慮 27 過關閉有關消防泵總掣嘅需要,更惶論有冇考慮過如果閂咗呢個總掣對於火警警報系統 28 FS 嘅影響。亦都令人引起疑問嘅就係其實中華發展其實多次接受宏業委託,就宏福苑以 29 外嘅其他地盤咧係掛名咁樣去處理消防裝置嘅承辦。係警方提交畀我哋嘅證據裏邊,我 30 哋發現警方檢獲咗梁秉基先生喺2023 年9 月嘅WhatsApp,Sorry,2023 年11 月嘅 31 WhatsApp,當時大家見到佢係咁講嘅,大家見到第一個(English Spoken),鍾文慰: 32 “宏業要停系統,佢哋自己放滅火筒及貼停系統紙在大堂,我哋只需要入畀消防處,收 33 佢哋3000。”或者其實有關嘅工程係實際有檢視過相關嘅風險而去作出呢啲嘅申請,或 34

Evidential Hearing in relation to fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po

A Court Reporting Transcript by Epiq 14

者考慮相關嘅措施,定係只係掛名求其咁去做咧?呢個係我哋之後要探討嘅問題。主 1 席、兩位,之後我想檢視有關消防系統同埋裝備、同埋設備最後實際停用嗰個情況。梁 2 先生嘅證人陳述書其實亦都好清楚咁承認咗,根據法定嘅規定,消防栓同埋喉轆系統必 3 須由註冊消防裝置嘅承辦商親自停用。換句話講唔係你自己話停就停,佢停用其實都有 4 要求要邊個去做。而佢亦都承認中華發展其實冇派過人員咁樣去做,佢嘅解釋係因為宏 5 業話畀中華發展聽,停用方面係會由宏福苑嘅物業管理方,即係ISS 負責,呢個講法喺 6 有關規例之下可唔可以接受咧?呢個需要佢哋去解釋喇。第三,有關火警警報系統嘅停 7 用亦都係有一連串嘅錯誤,喺消防栓喉轆系統同埋火警系統停用之後,我哋見到消防水 8 缸嘅維修工程亦都係隨即展開啦,當時承建商係叫做一家叫做太陽建設亞洲有限公司, 9 英文係(English Spoken),佢哋係負責E 座、C 座同埋B 座嘅水缸維修。我諗大家都 10 唔會奇怪就係E 座嘅工程持續咗、持續超出咗佢首份SND14 日嘅限期,呢個淨淨就係宏 11 業要中華發展提交進一步SDN 現場使用、停用時間嗰個原因,換句話講做耐咗就要再 12 入。但係如果我哋睇番有關嘅SND,註腳2 嗰度顯示咗有關嘅要求,大家見到:一般而 13 言係每次消防裝置同埋設備嘅關閉,延長嘅時間其實唔應該超過14 日。當然,呢個係有 14 例外啦,如果有法例上高個要求,呢個係可以。呢個有關嘅規定,大家都會可以理解到 15 喇,你停用嘅時間越短越安全,一般嚟講超過14 日風險會相應增加。梁先生證據顯示中 16 華發展似乎係冇去查明點解系統要一而再,再而三咁停用,呢個停用係咪合理?佢嘅證 17 供提到宏業每14 日就會通知中華發展申請延長停用,而中華發展就依照有關嘅指示提交 18 SDN 將有關嘅系統停用繼續延長。我想、我估計大家會有個疑問就係呢個咁嘅申請提交 19 咗幾多次咧?現有證據顯示一共提交咗16 次,到火災發生嘅時候,大廈嘅消防系統其實 20 係停用咗超過半年。大家有證據可以睇到啦,當然每一次繼續去申請延長,中華發展似 21 乎係冇去考慮個實質需要,亦都冇落去實地檢視一下情況係點樣,點解要申請咁多次? 22 相反佢都係依照報價。令人亦都感到驚訝嘅就係其實喺第一次報價嘅時候,大家睇到相 23 關嘅要求,其實個停用係要持續一年。喺呢個情況之下,中華發展需要同大家交代佢哋 24 係咪只係為咗相關報酬去一而再,再而三咁進行申請,而冇考慮佢哋實際嘅責任同埋當 25 時嘅火警風險。如果中華發展作為註冊消防嘅裝置嘅承辦商,履行咗佢哋嘅責任,我哋 26 嘅睇法係其實佢哋會知道其實冇必要停用有關係統咁耐嘅。有關嘅證據顯示到乜嘢咧? 27 第一,太陽建設就表示其實宏福苑D 座、E 座嘅防水缸維修工程咧2015 年10 月底已經 28 做好㗎喇,Sorry,2025 年10 月底。而C 座同埋B 座嘅維修其實喺11 月初已經完成, 29 淨番落嚟嘅工作係水喉安裝、水閘或者浮波呢啲設施。如果、我哋嘅問題就係:如果中 30 華發展係有跟進嘅,佢哋會唔會留意到其實淨下落嚟嘅工程,其實嗰個數量同埋真係完 31 成嘅時間其實係好短嘅,佢哋應唔應該敦促宏業儘快完成呢一個工程,使到消防系統可 32 以重開咧?綜觀現在嘅證據嚟睇,似乎因為呢個系統警報造成一個非常…系統嘅停用的 33 確造成咗一個非常危險嘅情況。另外我哋都想委員會考慮一下,針對有關嘅申請、多次 34

Evidential Hearing in relation to fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po

A Court Reporting Transcript by Epiq 15

嘅申請,消防處有冇向中華發展多次提交有關嘅申請作出任何疑問咧?正如我哋剛剛所 1 講,有關嘅承辦商需要停用系統就要交SDN,消防處應該喺應該24 小時之內到場進行風 2 險評估。就宏福苑嘅個案,消防處喺2025 年4 月到9 月係有12 次類似嘅到訪,喺呢啲 3 到訪期間,消防處嘅人員有冇留意到火警系統已經被關閉?佢哋係咪假設咗當時嘅系統 4 仍然係正常運作?呢啲係及後消防要向大家去探討嘅題目。嗱,消防處人員嘅口供點講 5 咧?佢哋嘅內容喺2025 年4 月到5 月到訪期間,消防人員係並未進入消防泵房,亦從 6 未、亦都未有檢查電控制板,亦都冇確認承辦商係咪隔離水泵,而唔係去閂咗嗰個總 7 掣,因而導致整個消防系統係暫停使用嘅。有關第3 段大家見到佢嘅講法:“我車人到 8 宏福苑調查緊急車輛出入口,去到宏福苑管理處,向管理員查詢宏建閣嘅消防栓喉轆系 9 統是否已經關閉?獲回覆宏建閣嘅消防栓喉轆系統已經關閉後便離開,返回消防局。” 10 似乎佢哋向管理處查詢系統有冇正常運作、有冇關閉之後,係冇引致佢哋去作出任何嘅 11 調查。另外啦,就消防處去允許嗰消防栓同埋喉轆系統嘅停用,因為嗰個SDN 係涉及嗰 12 啲系統,點解要批准咁多次咧?法例要求14 日做一次申請當然係有佢哋嘅原因,FSD 自 13 己喺2021 年第一號嘅通函裏邊亦都規定關閉消防裝置對正常操作嘅應該係應該減至最 14 低,大家應該記得有提過應該儘快恢復正常。有關嘅通函,大家見到亦都指出咗另外一 15 點嘅,喺第6 頁係有咁講嘅,消防裝置工程出現任何不當,任意或蓄意延誤可構成不當 16 或疏忽行為,而消防處處長可將承辦商提交紀律委員會處理。點解當時冇對多次嘅延期 17 申請作出任何嘅查詢?呢個會係一個重要嘅議題。我哋揾到當時嘅記錄咧,似乎係有一 18 個咁嘅情況嘅,佢哋提供嘅資料顯示咧,如果我哋睇番有關嘅(English Spoken),大 19 家見到當時處理呢件事記錄嘅人員就似乎咁講:“跟進(English Spoken),已收到消 20 防承辦商通知,上指工程仍在進行中,需要延長關閉消防裝置,(English Spoken)已 21 填妥,(English Spoken)收到,此個案於4 個月後再跟進。”記錄比較簡單,但我諗 22 佢哋都要解釋點解一個每14 日跟進一次嘅系統點解會有呢一類型嘅記錄係度,點解係4 23 個月之後先跟進?接住落嚟我哋想睇一睇ISS 嘅責任,可能呢個係一個適當時間去做一 24 個早休。 25 陸啟康法官:我哋休…呢一個聽證會係休息10 分鐘。 26

27 11 時22 分聆訊押後 28 11 時32 分聆訊恢復 29

30 陸啟康法官:請繼續。 31 杜淦堃資深大律師:主席,頭先喺小休之前我哋考慮到,我一路喺度講有關工程嘅承辦商叫做宏 32 泰,有同事提醒咗我哋可能因為同宏泰閣嘅名一樣,我唔想造成混亂,所以可能之後我 33 哋用番嗰英文名,叫番佢作victory fire 可能會比較清晰。另一方面可能想重申一次 34

Evidential Hearing in relation to fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po

A Court Reporting Transcript by Epiq 16

嘅就係,我們講緊嘅係有兩套唔同嘅消防系統,一套係消防栓同埋喉轆系統,另外一套 1 係火警警報系統,多次申請嗰一套係消防栓同喉轆系統,而當時並未發覺其實都被關閉 2 嘅就係火警警報系統,所以希望咁樣,消防鍾即係消防處未發現(English Spoken). 3 正如頭先所講,我哋轉去睇ISS 嘅角色,我哋頭先提到關閉個消防喉轆同消防栓系統, 4 同埋FAS 系統嗰個總掣嘅問題,當時係由ISS 去操作,ISS 維修部有一位羅國瑞(音) 5 先生佢提供咗有關嘅證據,證據顯示咗喺2025 年4 月開始,他不時從管理處收到有關 6 工作嘅指示,因為宏業需要維修消防水缸,佢協助宏業去放水。羅先生嘅證據顯示佢同 7 另外一名ISS 維修部嘅工人李誠富(音)先生喺大堂同宏業會合咗就一齊去消防泵房, 8 正如佢明確咁承認佢係當時負責關閉8 座大廈消防系統總電源嘅人士。佢點解要咁做 9 咧?佢話當時嘅原因就係根據佢自己嘅經驗同埋認知,如果喺消防泵缺水嘅情況下運 10 作,水泵係可能會燃燒,所以有必要關閉有關我嗰個總掣。他交畀委員會嘅陳述書第21 11 (c)段,冇?Okay。喺21(c)段佢係咁講,或者我讀出來:“如果水缸裏沒有水,而 12 加壓泵繼續運作,加壓泵與水缸之間嘅摩擦可能會影響加壓泵嘅運作,引致事故。” 13 嗱,呢一個講法同消防處助理處長姜世明先生嘅説法其實唔一樣,所以佢哋之間佢嘅理 14 解同消防處嘅理解係有出入嘅。無論如何,我諗問題亦都係顯而易見,我哋頭先見到如 15 果要關閉有關嘅系統,喺法例上高應該有註冊消防裝置嘅承辦商自己去關閉,而唔係物 16 業管理公司嘅員工去關閉,所以嚴格嚟講佢其實係冇資格去關閉有關FSI 系統。顯然, 17 ISS 雖然關閉咗呢個掣,可能佢哋並未意識到火警警報系統係停用。喺宏業3 月31 號發 18 出嘅通知裏面,其實只係提到消防水缸會喺4 月7 號維修直至完成,當時佢哋係冇發出 19 公告,提到有關嘅火警警報系統FAS 係會關閉。喺今次嘅聽證會里面,我哋會將、當然 20 會進一步審視羅國瑞先生同埋佢僱主喺事件中嘅角色啦。我哋注意到有報道指ISS 喺一 21 名宏福苑工作姓王嘅保安員大約喺2025 年5 月曾經向上級表達消防系統長期關住呢一 22 件事係有唔妥嘅地方,長期關閉,但係佢嘅投訴或者佢個關注並未獲得重視,而該名保 23 安員係喺兩週內辭職以示抗議嘅,而呢一個説法當然亦都需要去交代。ISS 喺本案的角 24 色並唔係侷限於我哋探討過嘅問題。之前提及過有一位林文恩先生,其實佢喺得知火警 25 發生之後,其實佢係好努力咁嘗試去手動咁樣去啓動番有關嘅火警系統,林先生預計會 26 喺聽證會里面作供,我哋當然會探討下當時佢去嘗試再去開番有關係統嘅情況啦,同埋 27 佢喺嘗試途中因為火警嘅情況畀警方阻止繼續開啓另外一啲情況嗰個實際嘅情況同埋佢 28 嘅講法。主席,讓我綜合咁樣去歸納以下幾點,就火警警報系統咧,其實喺多個環節裏 29 面都出現咗一啲不幸,同埋係某些情況下人為嘅過失。第一,我哋睇到承辦商其實係未 30 有妥善咁評估維修消防水缸嘅必要性,從而決定消防裝置、同埋決定停用有關消防裝置 31 同設備,呢個係第一個問題。第二,消防處同埋中華發展都似乎未有注意到火警警報系 32 統係關閉咗嘅。而Victory Fire 亦都冇向消防處申報有關火警系統嘅關閉。第三,物 33 業管理公司ISS 佢哋亦都係關閉咗消防嘅總電掣,無意中將火警系統都係關閉咗,正如 34

Evidential Hearing in relation to fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po

A Court Reporting Transcript by Epiq 17

我頭先所講,呢個應該由承辦商去處理。第四,承辦商亦都冇加快消防裝置嘅維修嘅進 1 度,亦都冇去監管有關嘅進度。第五,當然呢個可能係比較困難,火警當日係咪能夠快 2 一啲去啓動有關嘅裝置咧?當時。呢個都係我哋之後會探討嘅題目。 3 陸啟康法官:我哋再提醒各位,呢啲係我哋委員會律師要求我哋探討嘅範圍,唔係最終嘅結論。 4 杜淦堃資深大律師:冇錯。所以綜合呢啲嘅評估,我哋嘅睇法就係無論只係一個環節嘅過失,同 5 埋全部環節嘅過失加起嚟,其實對整件事件都會有相當大嘅影響,正如主席所講呢啲係 6 我哋之後要探討嘅題目。下一個想探討嘅題目係一個琴日已經用咗一啲時間去介紹嘅問 7 題——生口,大家知道呢個係重要議題,有關用樓梯逃走係一個我哋經常喺媒體裏邊睇 8 到嘅説法,大家可能亦都聽過,亦都很多人會問,乜火警走火唔係應該走樓梯,係應該 9 搭𨋢嘅咩?但係喺呢一個情況底下大家昨日都聽到了,大部分居民其實係用𨋢走嘅,所 10 以有關當時嘅情況,點解會用咗𨋢而唔係用樓梯咧,呢個我哋覺得同當時逃生樓梯同埋 11 呢個生口有極大嘅關係。證據顯示、亦都顯示咗,琴日我哋都睇咗一啲,其實樓梯裏邊 12 好快就充滿咗濃煙,我哋見到其中一個主因係因為有關嘅生口令到濃煙由大廈外牆進入 13 咗走火樓梯。我哋獲取咗宏福苑外牆維修有關外判商一啲嘅資料,有關嘅記錄係咁樣 14 嘅,A 座宏仁閣嘅外判商係權城工程有限公司,B 座宏道閣係明旺工程有限公司(音), 15 C 座就係有兩間:安創工程公司(音)同王華添(音)工程公司,D 座、E 座、F 座,即 16 係宏建、宏泰同埋宏昌就係港鵬工程公司(音),G 座即係宏盛閣亦都係王華添工程公 17 司。而宏志閣H 座即係安創工程公司(音)。我哋用宏仁閣A 座為例,當時權城係大約 18 喺2025 年10 月開始工程嘅,而有關嘅證據顯示到其實權城嘅工人喺接到宏業嘅指示, 19 叫移除逃生樓梯窗口去開設呢一啲嘅通道嘅時候,當時咧其實15 樓已經有個通道,而宏 20 業嘅要求就係每隔5 層開一個呢啲生口。大家見到當時嘅指示即係5 樓、10 樓、20 21 樓、25 樓。權城亦都有佢哋嘅代表王聯權(音)先生佢係咁樣去解釋嘅,佢話生口其實 22 係指我哋拆除咗樓梯位置嗰窗口,整成一個出入口,用作工人或物料運輸之用。我們通 23 常會先拆除個窗玻璃,之後留住個窗架,再用鋁塑膠板上成為門開關之用。同時會裝一 24 個密碼鎖,一般係早上9 時工人到達開工時自行打開,下午6 時工程完畢後,完畢就會 25 鎖上,而每5 層做一個生口嘅做法,係呢個打莊同埋清拆大廈外牆瓦仔工程嘅時候係一 26 般嘅做法。其他大廈嘅分判商嗰供詞其實大致上都係吻合嘅,分判商工程嘅有關嘅證據 27 指出,C 座、G 座、H 座嘅生口其實已經被安置、已經被設置好嘅,所以有關分判商就話 28 唔係佢哋做,佢哋入場嘅時候已經開設咗啦。至於B 座咧,佢哋嘅講法係“明旺係按照 29 宏業嘅指示用這個鋁板做生口,但因為鋁板後來經常破裂,之後就變咗用木板。”大家 30 可以見到,當然可以想象到用木板嘅問題。所以歸納咗有關分判商嘅證據,其實大致上 31 都係一致嘅,佢哋都係話宏業叫佢哋開生口,或者到場已經有個生口,每5 層一個,多 32 數用鋁板,有時會變成木板,呢個係相關嘅證據。大家知道火警發生嘅時間其實係施工 33 嘅時間,所以當時我哋有理由相信大部分嘅生口相關嘅嗰個安全嘅門,無論係鋁也好, 34

Evidential Hearing in relation to fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po

A Court Reporting Transcript by Epiq 18

木也好,應該大部分都係完全被打開,所以呢一個係濃煙攻入樓梯嘅主要原因。至於生 1 口如果用木板作為臨時門,呢一個我哋嘅分析係其實喺違反咗多項嘅消防條例。屋宇署 2 喺建築物安全消防守則2011 年,喺最新嘅2024 版規定咗建築物料應該點樣去具備防火 3 能力。大家見到F5.6 有關嘅規定:“基本上喺進行改裝、翻新或者維修工程嘅時候, 4 所有嘅逃生路徑必須保持暢通無阻,如因施工需要暫時移去防火門或防火屏障,必須提 5 供其他施助替代,以確保消防安全標準到達。”嗱,屋宇署嘅證據、喺提交畀委員會嘅 6 證據指出以木板替代窗户其實係令到逃生通道直接通至高度易燃嘅外牆棚架,呢個係大 7 大增加咗火災風險,因為呢個徹底破壞咗逃生樓梯嘅原有功能。另外我哋都審視過建築 8 物消防安全守則,“第E/13.1(a)條規定:“防護出口包括樓梯內嘅內牆、天花及裝 9 飾飾面層必須具備歐洲分類C 嘅防火性能。”所以有關物料嘅防火性能亦都係有規定。 10 屋宇署嘅證據就指出喺逃生樓梯裏面直接安裝可燃嘅木製通門其實係違反咗上述物料耐 11 火性嘅規定。再者,我哋都留意到建築物建造規則第123Q 第16 條,簡單嚟講第16 條 12 嘅規定就係必須採用適當嘅建造方法同埋程序,並需採取適當嘅預防措施。大家可以想 13 象到可燃嘅木板如果破壞咗逃生通道,令到當然方便工人出入,但呢一個係顯然唔係一 14 個適當嘅建造方法,亦都唔係一個可以接受嘅預防措施。此外,屋宇署嘅證據亦都指 15 出:你用一啲唔透明嘅木板去取代咗樓梯所需要嘅自然採光亦都係有問題。大家可以想 16 象到大火嘅時候,如果樓梯係完全、自然光完全被遮蓋嘅話,呢個對逃生都係會造成一 17 啲嘅影響。所以屋宇署嘅證據係同意生口係違反多項嘅規定。而屋宇署有關嘅講法咧, 18 其實喺第8.5.4 段,我哋而家睇到佢哋嘅證人供詞亦都講得相當清楚,呢一段我想喺記 19 錄裏讀出嚟:“建築就認為“要維持到呢一啲逃生樓梯喺工程時候嘅功能,佢哋需要冇 20 任何阻隔物,而且係冇再加任何嘅風險嘅。另外,將呢啲嘅防火,一定要保護呢啲逃生 21 嘅出口,因為將一啲易燃嘅木板啦,將佢擺咗落去呢一度咧,就會令到、等到工人出到 22 地盤,就會令到呢一個逃生方式或者逃生門咧係有更多的風險嘅。所以話呢個施工方法 23 同埋預防嘅措施都係不妥善。”之前我哋聽過ICU 嘅責任,ICU 係咪有責任去監督有關 24 嘅規定,去審視呢個係咪合理呢?嗱,我哋嘅證據睇到以下嘅情況,為求合法更改樓梯 25 嘅窗户,承辦商其實係喺2025 年5 月至7 月期間向ICU 提交咗小型工程嘅申請表嘅。 26 正如我哋之前所講啦有兩類、工程開始前有兩類唔同嘅檢查:第一,就係佢哋叫做 27 (English Spoken)審計基本檢查,呢個純粹係一個佢哋叫(English Spoken),其 28 實係睇下有關文件,喺辦公室裏面,去核對一下有關交出嚟嘅文件、照片係咪齊全,係 29 咪合乎程序?第二類大家都可以想象到了,佢哋叫(English Spoken),係施工前實地 30 審計檢查,即係由檢查人員喺工程開始前親身到場去睇一睇當時嘅情況,去確保係安 31 全。ICU 係承認就宏福苑窗户嘅小型工程申請,佢哋係隨機抽樣文件、做咗隨機抽樣文 32 件嘅審核檢查,做咗個(English Spoken),並未被篩選中嘅實地進行檢查,即係佢哋 33 係冇去過做(English Spoken)。由於ICU 係只係僅限於喺辦公室審閲文件,相信佢哋 34

Evidential Hearing in relation to fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po

A Court Reporting Transcript by Epiq 19

可能並未瞭解到呢一個改動嘅情況同埋帶嚟嘅後果。而呢個由、本身由一個窗改成一個 1 木門嘅違規情況似乎係未被ICU 發覺嘅。無論如何啦,我哋睇到用呢個(English 2 Spoken)嘅檢查,如果你睇番當時提交嘅照片,你應該睇到其實部分嘅窗户咧其實都係 3 畀木板封咗嘅,我哋亦都有向ICU 查詢點解佢哋冇喺啲相片裏面識別到生口用木板呢一 4 個問題,佢哋嘅解釋係“我哋審查係僅限於文件嘅審查,重點係放係程序是否合規同埋 5 結構計算上高。”呢一個講法根據ICU 高級屋宇保養測量師容永倫(音)先生嘅説法, 6 基礎審核檢查、用嘅檢查只係要求照片是否清晰?所以ICU 喺審核通道工程嘅審查時候 7 就未標記去、未有留意到呢一啲違規嘅情況。所以就算有關嘅規定係違反咗呢啲嘅要 8 求,ICU 係察覺唔到嘅。另一方面,大家都會知道勞工署亦都有佢哋嘅角色,佢哋對宏 9 福苑進行咗多次嘅審查,就勞工署方面似乎呢一個問題,佢哋亦都係冇處理,但係佢哋 10 有佢哋嘅説法嘅。勞工署個辯解係:“宏福苑屬於有人居住嘅建築物,所以咧屋苑嘅樓 11 梯係屬於屋宇署同埋消防處嘅管轄範圍,而並非勞工署嘅責任。”佢哋表示:“勞工署 12 人員對其他部門嘅規例缺乏專業知識,所以就無法識別消防安全規例違規嘅情況。”大 13 家睇到相關嘅證據。 14 陸啟康法官:都有啲嘢澄清,其實我睇到啲文件,其實BD 或者ICU 佢哋都強調咗其實有好多 15 嘢,我哋香港嗰個嘅而家嘅機制都係靠嗰個承建商本身去執行佢嘅責任嘅。 16 杜淦堃資深大律師:冇錯。當然喺佢哋證人供詞嘅講法,如果好籠統咁講會有幾個啦,佢哋要考 17 慮佢哋部門法規底下,自己部門嘅責任啦,邊一條規例係屬於佢哋監管,而係邊一個機 18 制裏邊有關承建商嘅責任同埋政府部門之間嘅責任。當然有關嘅做法理唔理解,同埋只 19 係依賴承建商自己去申報,呢個做法喺系統性上高有冇問題?呢個當然係委員會去考慮 20 嘅問題。另外仲有幾條有關嘅規例,我都想喺記錄上高去強調嘅。第一,根據建築地盤 21 安全規則,即係我哋嘅法例第59/I 章第54(1)條“負責建築工地嘅承建商需使設備在 22 建築地盤的所有走火通道及滅火器保持良好狀況,避免受阻礙。”所以承建商正如主席 23 所講係有有關嘅責任啦。第二,建造地盤安全規例第54(2)條規定:“任何人不得故 24 意更改、損壞、阻礙或以其他方式損壞上述走火通道或滅火器具,如果有關嘅規定係被 25 違反,係喺54(2)條屬刑事罪行。”再另外有關嘅法例亦都係包括建築地盤安全規 26 則,並未對、呢個對並未對有人居住嘅建築物或者冇人居住嘅建築物中間作出任何區分 27 嘅,所以有關條例唔係用呢個作為分水嶺。規則裏邊亦都冇説明如果有居民居住嘅話情 28 況係會有任何例外嘅。有關呢一啲嘅規則,當然勞工署有冇責任或者有冇權限去執法 29 咧?呢個係之後佢哋會同我哋探討嘅問題。生口顯然係喺呢個逃生嘅過程裏邊一個重要 30 嘅環節,邊一個部門負責去監管有關嘅審批,邊一個部門去檢視呢一個做法妥唔妥當? 31 定係只係依賴承建商?正如主席所講會係一個我哋需要審視嘅題目。主席,我哋就昨日 32 同今日,就我哋要檢視喺我哋TOR-1 嘅議題裏面,其實我哋喺開案陳詞想強調嘅相關證 33 據已經完成。接下落嚟,我會去到我哋俗稱TOR-2 嘅一個範疇,大家會知道呢一個職權 34

Evidential Hearing in relation to fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po

A Court Reporting Transcript by Epiq 20

範疇同第一個範疇有好大嘅分別。我哋過去嗰一日半主要係探討咗職權範疇第一段裏 1 邊,主要嘅集中點就係宏福苑火警嘅經過、蔓延同埋傷勢。職權範疇二探討嘅係可以話 2 係更加廣、更加具系統性問題,但係另一個角度去睇,喺宏福苑本身嘅情況嘅處理方法 3 可能會有啲唔同。我哋建議嘅處理方法係咁樣樣。我哋會以宏福苑作為香港樓宇維修裏 4 面廣泛,出現廣泛問題裏面作為其中一個例子,因為宏福苑就係我哋本次委員會調查嘅 5 核心。當我哋審視相關嘅證據,探討宏業同埋鴻毅嘅委任過程裏面,去探討下招標程序 6 有冇潛在風險?貪污或者其他不當行為有冇機會發生嘅時候,我哋會睇到其實係香港其 7 他同類型工程亦都可能有同樣嘅問題。我哋會審視我哋收到所有嘅書面資料,探討每一 8 個工程階段裏面可能出現嘅系統性問題,當中大家都可能聽過呢一啲嘅詞彙,有冇關連 9 交易?(English Spoken),有冇角色衝突(English Spoken)?或者有冇一啲我哋 10 所謂嘅不當勾結?以及其他工程喺招標過程裏面有冇涉及圍標喇,或者其他嘅不當情 11 況?喺宏福苑一案而言,委員會其實已經就職權範圍嘅第二段向有關人士索取咗大量資 12 料,我哋可以喺呢個時間透露嘅就係收到嘅資料係包括宏業嘅董事在內,侯華健先生同 13 埋何建業先生亦都向委員會提交咗證人陳述書,但係佢哋拒絕出庭提供口頭證供。委員 14 會亦都有向其他人士索取資料,例如大埔區南區區議員,曾經擔任宏福苑業主法團法團 15 顧問嘅黃碧嬌女士。至於職權範疇第二段所指嘅系統性問題,委員會顯然唔可能,亦都 16 唔係適當去就香港現時每一宗嘅圍標或者、或者每一個有關呢啲勾結嘅不當行為同埋個 17 案作出一啲嘅結論,呢個唔屬於我哋委員會嘅職權範疇。因為大家會留意到第二段要求 18 委員會審視嘅係香港大型樓宇維修工程市場係咪存在系統性問題?佢哋冇要求委員會就 19 每一個圍標嘅個案作出特定嘅結論。而事實上就算有咁嘅要求亦都係冇可能做到嘅,因 20 為大家知道喺法律上高,委員會除咗喺我哋嘅職權範疇之外,宏福苑維修工程有啲乜嘢 21 不當嘅行為,同埋有一啲圍標貪污嘅情況唔止係呢個委員會關注嘅範疇,其實有其他執 22 法部門亦都有同樣關注。大家知道單單就宏福苑呢個情況,已經有一啲人士係被拘捕, 23 而之前我哋都講過,刑事同埋民事法庭都有佢哋嘅責任。所以委員會探討嘅我哋一再強 24 調係系統性問題,而宏福苑裏邊嘅案情同埋有關嘅證據會係我哋今次探討系統性問題裏 25 面,可以話係一個強而有力嘅例子。大家亦都會留意到之前委員會亦都透露,我哋將會 26 發布一啲嘅表格,邀請公眾再次就職權範圍提供佢哋嘅意見,今次我哋所牽涉嘅係第二 27 段涉及所有系統性問題嘅資料。我哋都想喺呢度提到我哋都獲有關嘅執法部門提供咗大 28 量嘅資料,幫助我哋去研究呢個題目,當中包括競爭事務委員會、廉政公署,佢哋就大 29 型維修工程市場所面對系統性問題其實已經提交咗相當寶貴嘅意見。大家可以想象到問 30 題可能唔係一朝一夕,其實佢哋已經係做咗大量資料蒐集同埋工作。當中可以提到嘅就 31 係就競爭事務委員會提交嘅開案陳詞裏面亦都提到以下幾點,我哋覺得喺呢個階段亦都 32 值得去重複嘅。第一,根據競爭事務委員會嘅市場研究同埋調查,確實顯示有一批相當 33 數量嘅樓宇維修承建商之間長期咁存在住一種廣泛而有系統性嘅做法,繼而影響維修工 34

Evidential Hearing in relation to fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po

A Court Reporting Transcript by Epiq 21

程嘅招標結果,呢個係第一點。第二點,就係呢一啲嘅做法有時,我哋強調“有時”, 1 因為未必一定有需要嘅,係會因相關樓宇業主所聘用理應獨立嘅顧問而做出嘅行為係受 2 到助長,所以顧問嘅角色喺整件事情裏面係相當嘅重要。第三,呢啲行為所涉及嘅範 3 疇,唔僅限於喺我哋熟悉嘅圍標本身,幾乎同時亦都會涉及其他所謂反競爭嘅行為,例 4 如合謀定價同埋瓜分市場。委員會會審視各方提交嘅資料去了解呢啲問題有幾普遍啦, 5 同時會研究有乜嘢措施可以打擊大型樓宇工程裏邊嘅不當行為。喺呢個時候我想講番宏 6 福苑一案,喺呢一件事裏面我哋又睇到啲乜嘢咧?正如琴日提到事件嘅本身嘅開始,我 7 哋要走番去2016 年6 月10 日,當時ICU 根據“強制驗樓計劃(俗稱MBIS)”向宏福 8 苑8 座全部發出法定通知,簡單啲嚟講就係當樓宇樓齡到達30 年嘅時候,業主有需要 9 請註冊專業人士去檢查大廈用嘅公用部分同外牆,睇下有冇危險缺陷?要唔要進行修 10 葺?因為呢個法定通知,業主立案法團嘅代表喺2018 年嘅1 月2 日就申請咗採用市建 11 局嘅“招標妥”計劃,呢個計劃係一個電子平台同埋支援服務,佢嘅目的係保護業主喺 12 招標過程裏面避免受到圍標嘅影響。作為服務嘅一個部分,市建局亦都安排咗一間獨立 13 嘅顧問,喺呢個案例裏面係富邦測量師行(音)作為業主嘅顧問去提供意見同埋支援。 14 跟住我哋就講到喺呢個過程入面另外一個重要嘅角色,業主立案法團需要聘請一名註冊 15 嘅檢驗人員,一名我們叫做RI 去進行強制驗樓計劃嘅檢測。所以佢哋喺2018 年9 月3 16 日就進行咗公開招標,邀請承建商投標,結果我哋琴日都提過啦,收到24 份標書,根據 17 市建局回標價目嘅價目表去睇,我哋而家喺熒幕上高打咗出嚟,可能細少少,但係大家 18 會見到圈住咗,喺24 名投票者裏邊,鴻毅提供嘅報價係第六低,報價為22 萬港元。負 19 責檢查包括全部8 座大廈。主席,你可能會留意到,雖然投標嘅價格會受市場或者其他 20 不同嘅因素影響,但係我哋見到媒體嘅報道亦都反映咗一啲公眾嘅意見,22 萬呢個報價 21 其實我哋知道係比同類工程市場嘅價格係為低嘅,從我哋呢個回標價嘅價目表睇到,鴻 22 毅嘅報價係比平均市場價格50 萬,平均喺呢一個、呢一個,或者用呢一個表去計算嘅市 23 場價格50 萬係為低嘅。亦都有證據顯示22 萬呢個標價其實原本係24 萬嘅入標價,但 24 係後來調低咗2 萬所致。需要解釋嘅就係我哋見唔到有證據顯示當時法團係有要求佢哋 25 減價,所以點解由24 萬減到22 萬咧?呢個可能之後嘅證據會探討。喺接住2019 年1 26 月25 日,宏福苑嘅業主投票決定聘請鴻毅作為呢個計劃嘅驗樓人員啦,我哋睇番喺同日 27 立案法團嘅記錄,結果顯示到嘅就係大多數業主係支持鴻毅,佢有2,999 票,佔 28 67.5%。而得第二票高嘅公司遠東建築師樓有限公司其實只係得342 票,只係得7.7%。 29 值得留意係鴻毅中標價其實係高過遠東個啵,遠東當時係18.8 萬。到2019 年底,鴻毅 30 完成對宏福苑嘅實地檢查,2019 年12 月佢哋向ICU 提交咗驗樓報告同埋一份統稱為 31 MBI3 表格,正式報告各個樓宇需要修葺、進行修葺。嗱,喺個流程嘅下一步佢哋要揾一 32 位建築師負責同埋監督成個維修工程,喺2020 年嘅1 月,之後1 個月立案法團就刊登 33 招標公告聘請顧問,佢哋一共係收到35 份標書,我哋再睇一睇市建局就呢一次標書嘅回 34

Evidential Hearing in relation to fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po

A Court Reporting Transcript by Epiq 22

標價,大家可能雖然未必好清楚咁睇到個表格上高嘅名稱,但我哋可以同大家講鴻毅嘅 1 報價係排第11 低,投標價係38.8 萬港元。同樣咧,我哋留意到有傳媒報道,呢個報價 2 亦都有指控話係比市場低嘅,我哋之後亦都會探討呢個問題啦。目前可以嚟講,如果你 3 睇番呢個表,嗰個定價、中間定價嘅平均數大概係55 萬,跟住我哋睇一睇回標價目嗰個 4 簡報表。我哋睇到總共嗰個308,000 投標價嘅細項分配,其中248,000 係用於強制驗樓 5 計劃相關維修工程嘅顧問工作嘅,大家見到呢一度,譬如初步計劃28,000 處理嗰啲招 6 標文件,有4 萬,有唔同嘅報價嘅。所以我哋會睇到其實鴻毅就強制驗樓計劃下,其實 7 佢哋如果加曬呢啲有關嘅日子嚟講咧,其實係需要用149 日嘅維修工程作為一個基礎, 8 提出248000 蚊嘅費用,如果除番平均嘅話,呢個數、得出嚟嘅平均數係每日2,000 蚊 9 到。嗱,鴻毅亦都有就佢哋提出嘅價格較低作出解釋嘅,我哋睇到佢喺2020 年2 月28 10 日寫信畀立案法團,佢哋話表示佢哋因為之前做過驗樓嘅檢驗工作,對宏福苑嘅情況瞭 11 解,所以佢就可以用一個比較相宜嘅價格去處理啦。我哋知道跟住喺2021 年11 月11 12 日亦都召開咗業主特別大會啦,投票決定聘請鴻毅作為顧問,其後雙方喺2021 年嘅12 13 月22 日簽訂咗合約嘅。喺呢啲證據睇到,同埋委員會需要關注嘅有以下兩點:第一,宏 14 福苑喺呢個強制驗樓計劃嘅第一階段,做驗樓人員嘅時候有冇用低過平均價嘅價格,或 15 者一個合理嘅價格去投得有關嘅工作咧?你哋都會留意到之後佢哋都係用一個偏低嘅價 16 格去投到第二階段顧問嘅工作。接住落嚟我哋睇到鴻毅成功做咗維修工程顧問之後,佢 17 哋有需要訂立招標規則啦,評估每一件競投嘅公司啦,之後再監督承建商嘅工作。當 18 然,理論上高居民係要依賴佢哋嘅專業意見去處理呢啲嘅工作,居民本身係、可能冇… 19 通常都唔會有專業知識協助處理呢啲工作或者監督佢哋嘅。就由呢一個階段我哋睇到越 20 嚟越多宏福苑嘅居民對承建商嘅招標過程提出投訴,而證據亦都顯示咗喺投訴裏面都見 21 到一啲可能不當嘅行為。我哋首先由承建商嘅招標程序講起,正如頭先所講,其實喺呢 22 個工程裏面,宏福苑係加入咗市建局嘅“招標妥”計劃嘅。根據市建局嘅講法咧,佢哋 23 只係喺招標行政上邊做一個協助者,佢哋用的字眼係一個(English Spoken)。佢哋提 24 供電子招標嘅平台,防止實體標書畀人去做手腳,並且聘請咗一間獨立顧問,即係富邦 25 測量師行作為業主提供基本技術嘅支援。喺2023 年5 月,市建局係佢哋嘅平台上高招 26 標提供咗三個方案嘅:方案一就係維修紙皮石啦,方案二就係維修…第一個方案係用 27 AKA 品牌維修紙皮石,第二個就係用一個SKK 嘅品牌維修紙皮石,而第三個方案就係重 28 新進行外牆批蕩同埋紙皮石工程,所以佢哋一共有三個唔同嘅方案。到2023 年7 月5 29 號市建局嘅人員同一名執業嘅會計師一齊監察開票,一共有57 間承建商投標,之後市建 30 局就將呢57 份標書交畀鴻毅去分析。到同年9 月,鴻毅就向市建局同埋業主立案法團 31 提供咗佢哋嘅分析報告。首先我哋想留意嘅就係呢份報告係由鴻毅當時唯一嘅註冊檢驗 32 人員,一位吳若(音)(English Spoken)吳先生簽署嘅。嗱,呢一點我想大家留意喺 33 我哋講述投標工程裏面,呢一點係有佢嘅重要性,因為我哋之後審視嘅證據顯示吳先生 34

Evidential Hearing in relation to fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po

A Court Reporting Transcript by Epiq 23

喺宏福苑嘅維修項目裏面,係有可能冇履行過任何註冊人員檢驗嘅工作。而且似乎佢只 1 係一個“橡皮圖章”,對提交畀佢嘅文件進行簽署。委員會或者已經知悉有媒體報道, 2 係懷疑承建商分析嘅、投標分析嘅報告第4 至第6 頁所列出嘅57 間公司裏面,有部分 3 公司,投標嘅公司同埋最終中標嘅公司係有關聯嘅。我哋或者睇一睇呢一個我哋準備嘅 4 關係圖。主席、兩位委員,我想首先請大家留意嘅萬嘉建築工程有限公司(English 5 Spoken),大家見到右上角,呢間公司前身係宏業工程國際有限公司,名稱同宏業建築 6 工程有限公司當然相近啦,多咗“國際”兩個字,呢間公司喺2015 年改名成為 7 (English Spoken),當時係有一位林祖新(音)先生入股呢間公司。根據公司註冊處 8 嘅文件,林先生嘅登記地址係邊度咧?第一,張燕琴女士,即係宏業董事、同埋主要股 9 東侯華健先生嘅太太,係侯太太嘅註冊物業。第二,張燕琴女士亦都持有另外一間公 10 司,有另外一個物業,萬嘉建造本身嘅註冊辦事處亦都係位於張女士所設嘅公司架構下 11 嘅物業。第二,我想大家去睇另外右手邊第四間,民星營造有限公司,呢間公司嘅大股 12 東譚子文先生係喺2018 年9 月同埋侯華健先生共同成立咗一間叫做利來拓展有限公司 13 (English Spoken),即係中間灰色嗰一間。譚先生同侯先生各擁有利來拓展50%嘅股 14 權,而利來拓展呢間公司同民星嘅註冊辦事處係同一個地址。至於民星嘅小股東王小紅 15 (音)先生咧,佢又成立咗另一間公司,叫做集風創建公司(音),呢間公司我哋冇喺 16 呢個表上高顯示嘅,但係我可以同委員會講,嗰間公司有咩關係咧?因為嗰間公司股東 17 之一亦都係張燕琴女士,亦就是侯太。跟住我想大家留意偉利建築工程有限公司 18 (English Spoken),即係第二間。偉利嘅其中一名公司是梁炳耀先生,大概喺2005 19 年起,佢曾經係宏業嘅董事長,時間長達9 年,佢期間同時兼任宏業同埋偉利兩間公司 20 董事,呢個重疊時間都係有4 年。主席、兩位委員,我哋見到呢一啲關聯之後,我哋曾 21 經去信畀侯華健先生,要求他對幾間公司、有間份投標嘅公司同宏業之間嘅關聯作出解 22 釋,侯先生係喺今年3 月2 日向委員會提交咗陳述書,佢嘅證詞裏面有以下嘅解釋,第 23 27 段,首先(English Spoken),佢對於萬嘉,佢就話萬嘉同佢之間嘅關係只係屬於 24 租客同業主之間嘅關係,不過佢解釋嘅內容大家見到比較簡單,亦都冇詳細交代例如佢 25 哋點相識吖?萬嘉點樣成為佢嘅租客吖?同埋亦都冇解釋過萬嘉既然係侯先生嘅租客, 26 同時係宏福苑其中一箇中標者,呢個情況係咪只係一個巧合咧?我哋見唔到解釋裏面有 27 任何可以協助到我哋嘅地方。至於我哋去睇民星喇,28 段。侯先生表示民星嘅董事即係 28 譚子文先生曾經係佢嘅僱主,其後他同譚先生分開咗,各自成立咗公司啦。不過佢並冇 29 解釋點解佢哋同一時間亦都係共同成立咗利來拓展。至於佢太太同王少紅先生嘅關係 30 咧,侯先生確認佢太太其實都係頭先我們提到嗰間集風創建公司嘅投資者,但係嗰解釋 31 就到呢一度啦。我哋可以睇下26 段佢點講偉利咧?侯先生就確認譚炳耀(口誤,應為梁 32 炳耀)確實咧喺2025 年(口誤,應為2005 年)至2014 年做過宏業嘅董事,不過佢話 33 佢哋其後關係轉差,所以梁先生離開咗宏業,自己成立偉利,所以偉利亦都成為宏業嘅 34

Evidential Hearing in relation to fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po

A Court Reporting Transcript by Epiq 24

主要競爭對手。呢一啲嘅講法可唔可以令到大家信服咧?我哋留意到偉利曾經參與過牛 1 頭角安基苑嘅大型維修工程,而鴻毅正正係嗰個工程嘅項目顧問,兩者之間有冇角色重 2 疊或者利益衝突咧?呢個的確係一個需要去探討嘅問題。順帶一提,根據一份香港01 嘅 3 報道,偉利喺2025 年嘅11 月30 日進行過一次棚架安全網嘅現場測試喎,當時佢哋點 4 解要咁做咧?亦都係用來熄除安基苑居民嘅一啲疑慮,但測試結果就顯示部分安全網燒 5 咗幾耐咧?燒咗1 分30 秒,所以呢次嘅結果其實就冇平息到當時居民嘅疑慮,就反而 6 增加咗當時居民嘅擔憂。我們可以睇到宏業同埋其他相關嘅公司喺維修工程裏面其實有 7 冇好好地真的去處理棚網阻燃嘅問題,同埋呢方面嘅角色係咪真嘅妥當咧?呢啲都係我 8 哋之後會索取有關證據嘅範疇。喺致函畀侯華健先生之後,我哋發現咗侯先生亦都似乎 9 同另外兩間公司有關聯,第一間叫做新開明建築工程有限公司,大家見到右下角嗰一 10 間。嗰間公司有一名董事同股東李植開先生,佢曾經係侯華健先生喺巨豐(音)有限公 11 司嗰度共同擔任過董事同埋股東。另外一間信豪(集團)工程有限公司(English 12 Spoken),最低嗰一間,右手邊。我們留意到嗰間公司有一名董事同埋股東蔡文鳴先 13 生,佢亦都同侯先生喺巨豐共同擔任過董事同埋股東。總括嚟講,我哋而家睇到嘅證據 14 就係侯先生似乎同5 間同樣競投宏福苑翻新工程嘅工作係有關聯或者聯繫。正如我哋呢 15 個表上高睇到啦,佢哋分別係偉利、萬嘉、新開明、信豪同埋民星營造。我哋都整合咗 16 佢哋表述嘅資料同埋鴻毅喺呢份佢哋嘅有關投標工程分析報告裏邊所獲到嘅等級同埋評 17 分嘅,大家可以睇到以上嘅資料,喺6 間裏面有3 間被列為次選考慮,而1 間即係宏業 18 就被列為首選。當然啦,好清楚嘅就係喺投標嘅過程,喺呢啲有關嘅分析裏面我哋見唔 19 到就我哋頭先講出嘅關係有進行任何嘅披露,有關當事人都冇主動交代過佢同其他競爭 20 對手有關係啦,呢一個當然可能佢哋有佢哋嘅解釋,但就而家睇到嘅證據的確係令人有 21 擔憂嘅地方。喺我哋休息午飯之前,主席,我想再去探討多一個亦都曾經受一啲報道嘅 22 問題。 23 陸啟康法官:我想問一問咧,究竟(English Spoken),(English Spoken)係得一間? 24 杜淦堃資深大律師:得1 間。 25 陸啟康法官:(English Spoken)有幾多間? 26 杜淦堃資深大律師:3 間、8 間,有8 間,另外仲有5 間嘅,即係同佢哋似乎冇關聯嘅公司。 27 陸啟康法官:明白。 28 杜淦堃資深大律師:主席,我想同大家探討嘅問題係咁樣,鴻毅篩選咗14 間承建商進行面試,並 29 將佢哋篩選嗰個會面同埋篩選嘅結果交畀居民考慮,佢哋篩選嘅準則係基於鴻毅嘅分析 30 同埋評分啦,喺我哋現階段睇到嘅證據嚟講,我哋覺得其實居民已經可能係被誤導嘅。 31 我哋睇番承建商分析報告,鴻毅採取嘅評分機制其實係涉及兩個方面:第一,公司背 32 景,有一個背景分析。第二,價格分析,即係嗰個叫做回標價嘅分析。嗱,我哋睇一睇 33 背景分析,呢個係有關報告16 頁,大家見到第一件可以明顯睇到嘅嘢就係,大家見到呢 34

Evidential Hearing in relation to fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po

A Court Reporting Transcript by Epiq 25

度講宏業係冇法律訴訟,同埋過往8 年冇訴訟記錄嗰兩行裏面其實佢係攞到滿分嘅。大 1 家再睇第14 頁吖,冇14 頁?Okay.嗱,第14 頁其實我哋已經(English Spoken)上 2 嚟。第14 頁嘅解釋係咩咧?3 分就會畀冇訴訟記錄嘅,如果你真係冇訴訟記錄嘅話可以 3 獲得3 分,而另外嗰3 分就係似乎近兩年由執業律師發出冇法律訴訟文件證明,有兩個 4 唔同嘅文件去要求,令到佢哋得到6 分嘅。另外3 分就係過往3 年由核數師簽署財務報 5 告及近6 個月由銀行發出嘅財務證明,所以呢個係解釋咗嗰個評分嘅。大家見到8 同9 6 係我哋而家留意嘅關鍵,第7 係關於財政、財務嘅情況。鴻毅最終喺背景分析嘅部分係 7 得到20 分,其中6 分係來自冇法律訴訟記錄。呢一個直接令到宏業成為最高嘅、得到 8 最高分數嘅投標者,亦都成為其實佢哋係唯一一間評為B 級嘅投標公司,主席,冇公司 9 攞到A 級,係佢攞到B 級啫。呢個評級同埋有關嘅記錄似乎同我哋見到嘅事實不符。第 10 一,鴻毅聲稱宏業過去8 年冇訴訟記錄,其實勞工署每季都會係自己嘅網頁公佈定罪記 11 錄,呢啲記錄見到宏業喺2017 至2023 年期間,其實有24 次因為違反職業安全同埋健 12 康法例而被定罪,例如係未能防止工人從高處墮下,以及未能確保佩戴安全頭盔,大家 13 見到我哋揾到有關嘅記錄。另外,值得關注嘅係喺2023 年8 月,即係鴻毅提交報告前 14 嘅一個月,屋宇署紀律委員會其實係裁定咗宏業係違反咗建築工程方面相關嘅條例,其 15 實佢哋對於相關嘅違反咧,係判做一個5 萬元嘅罰款,亦都禁止咗佢哋喺4 個月裏面再 16 承接小型嘅工程。呢一個記錄喺2023 年嘅8 月11 號咧係曾經刊見,亦都喺屋宇署嘅網 17 站嗰度睇到嘅。 18 陸啟康法官:我想問一問你哋有冇做到分析,即係話佢嗰訴訟記錄,佢會不會話即係訴訟只係包 19 括民事訴訟抑或刑事訴訟?我們有冇睇到其實其他嗰啲訴訟、或者其他公司嗰啲訴訟, 20 因為訴訟減分係因為有刑事訴訟咧? 21 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋睇番頭先攞出嚟之後嗰個表。嗱首先,呢一個咧,你見到係(English 22 Spoken)嚟嘅,所以係刑事嘅訴訟嚟嘅。主席、兩位,我相信大家都會睇到有關嘅問 23 題,如果反映宏業嘅正確訴訟記錄,宏業嘅基本評分會減咗6 分,佢會只係得14 分。 24 雖然宏業喺價格表裏面都會係A 級,基於佢嘅報價,同樣價格可能喺嗰個範疇會係一個 25 A 級嘅投標者,但係呢一個評級嘅話亦都唔係只有宏業一個係A 級嘅,因為係價格方面 26 亦都有第二啲公司係A 級嘅投票者。所以佢嘅背景同埋嗰個訴訟嘅記錄其實係直接影響 27 咗喺整個評估裏面,佢應唔應該中標。嗱,個問題唔係淨係停咗喺呢一度,個問題就係 28 我哋而家見到嘅記錄裏面亦都反映咗喺宏業發表咗嗰份承建商分析報告之前,當中關於 29 宏業嘅定罪記錄,喺報告裏面似乎有被更改過。根據警方提供嘅資料,我哋見到有一位 30 孔世傑(音)先生,佢係鴻毅嘅項目經理,佢係負責其實撰寫報告初稿嘅。佢喺證人陳 31 述書係咁講嘅:佢話“佢係2023 年年中完成宏福苑嘅回標分析,將分析嘅資料交畀黃 32 俠然先生,之後佢就喺2023 年8 月份,黃俠然先生將分析交回畀我,要求我核對資 33 料,以及查詢頁碼有冇錯誤。當時我發現該分析表與我當時、當初提交報告有所出入, 34

Evidential Hearing in relation to fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po

A Court Reporting Transcript by Epiq 26

例如「宏業建築有限公司」法律訴訟一欄嘅分數由無分變成有分,仲有詳情當中本來提 1 及嘅訴訟個案被擦除,以及他們過往不良新聞亦被刪除,最終導致本來「宏業工程有限 2 公司」由冇評價變成首選。其次有幾間承辦商嘅評級被降低或調高,當時我曾就有關事 3 情詢問黃俠然先生,佢叫我不用理會,繼續使用最新版本。”如果孔先生所言屬實,即 4 係代表鴻毅嘅黃俠然先生可能係蓄意篡改咗有關嘅定罪記錄。大家可想而知其實當時個 5 情況,可以話係比較難以想象,因為佢篡改嘅資料基本上係由一啲公開嘅資料裏面所獲 6 得,而如果孔先生嘅講法屬實,其實嗰啲公開嘅資料本來係有、係在報告裏邊會反映到 7 嘅,但係就有人蓄意去隱瞞呢一啲嘅事實。呢一啲問題稍候當然我哋會作出進一步審 8 視。市建局嘅證據顯示咧,佢哋收到鴻毅就宏業所作出嘅報告之後,並冇再查核屋宇署 9 或者勞工署網站,即係佢哋冇去再核實有關資料。佢哋都冇就宏業嘅定罪記錄去做出任 10 何查詢,市建局其實嘅做法基本上就係接納咗宏業提交經律師樓發出嘅信件,可以講其 11 實佢哋係照單全收啦。但是律師樓發出嘅信件亦都有特別嘅地方嘅,大家可以睇到呢一 12 份係有一間(English Spoken)、有一間律師樓發關於鴻毅嘅信件,呢度寫就係話“上 13 述嘅公司就係冇任何嘅記錄係畀業主立案法團或者管理公司過去七年係控告嘅。”這個 14 用字係相當審慎,其實嗰封信只係確定過去7 年冇受到有關…其實係呢個業主立案法團 15 或者物業管理公司提出嘅訴訟,其實係相當狹窄。而明顯地點解封信裏面冇提到屋宇署 16 或者勞工署處分記錄?大家之後會當然聽到市建局嘅立場,佢哋嘅立場就係佢哋只係招 17 標過程嘅代理人,佢哋認為佢哋冇責任去核實投標者所提交資料嘅準確性。無論如何 18 啦,我哋認為居民對於顧問冇公開,亦都冇去反映有關定罪記錄,呢個問題其實對於整 19 件事情裏邊係有重大嘅影響,呢一個情況普唔普遍?呢一個情況係其他嘅維修工程裏邊 20 會不會都經常發生咧?呢啲都係相當嚴重同埋嚴肅嘅問題。法官閣下,我會去…主席同 21 埋各位,我會去到另外一個題目嘅,可唔可以喺呢一個階段稍作或者早一點去進行我哋 22 中午嘅休息,我而家嘅進度應該比我琴日講嘅係快,我今日晏晝係會完嘅。 23 陸啟康法官:我哋押後到下晝2 點15 分。 24

25 12 時43 分聆訊押後 26 14 時15 分聆訊恢復 27

28 陸啟康法官:請繼續。 29 杜淦堃資深大律師:主席,喺我繼續講喺2024 年居民對於工程嘅反映之前,我想再播番頭先食 30 晏之前一張圖片,呢個係講咗當時嘅報價,大家見到第二同埋第三個銀碼咧,我哋頭先 31 作出一點修改嘅,嗰兩個銀碼唔應該係一樣嘅,就頭先嗰個打錯咗嗰個銀碼,希望未造 32 成不便,但我哋想講嘅論點冇受嗰個銀碼所影響。跟住我哋會講到喺2024 年初,業主 33 立案法團就舉行咗特別業主大會,正式就維修方案進行投票。當時,居民就呢一次嘅業 34

Evidential Hearing in relation to fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po

A Court Reporting Transcript by Epiq 27

主大會同埋投票其實都係有相當之多嘅爭議嘅。首先,我哋睇到嘅第一個問題就係大會 1 大約有293 人出席,呢個係包括親身出席同埋委託代表出席嘅,但投票嘅時候,結果係 2 有570 票出咗嚟。居民亦都有對授權票嘅方式提出咗關注,大家睇到其中有一啲嘅投訴 3 喇。有居民表示:第一,佢根本就冇授權任何人投票,但係出現咗佢哋嘅授權票。第二 4 個問題就係,喺2024 年9 月舉行嘅另一場業主特別大會,有居、部分居民亦都話曾經 5 有區議員以協助居民申請補貼為名四維走訪啲居民,實際上佢哋做緊啲乜咧?實際上係 6 收授權票,嗱,呢啲係當時一啲嘅指控。另外亦都有居民就、就鴻毅嗰個投標分析報告 7 裏面冇提及宏業嘅紀律記錄,呢一方面提出咗一啲質疑嘅。例如有居民喺2 月21 號咧 8 以電郵方式投訴咗喺屋宇署嗰度,大家可以睇到佢呢度講話佢係宏福苑嘅業主啦,有一 9 系列嘅事件佢覺得非常之有問題,佢講到喺業主大會舉行前有業主、街坊喺網上討論數 10 間承建商嘅背景資料,提到宏業時發覺承建商嘅牌照到期日及在屋宇署網站顯示出正式 11 接受紀律處分,導致有機會不能續牌,咁接住落嚟下半部亦都講出咗佢哋就呢件事嘅關 12 注。當然,呢啲係值得關注嘅問題,亦都有、當時有業主反映點解業主立案法團要幫宏 13 業去解釋佢哋相關所提供嘅紀律記錄咧?其實業主立案法團或者出席特別業主大會嘅人 14 士又知唔知道宏業有關呢一啲嘅不良記錄咧?如果知道嘅話,點解當時冇提供畀居民參 15 考咧?另外一個投訴就係當佢哋開會嘅時候有好多人反映,就係佢哋根本冇權問問題, 16 連問答環節都冇。亦都有居民指出,曾經轟動全香港嘅翠湖花園圍標案,我哋之後睇 17 ICAC 畀我哋嘅資料裏面亦都可能會提到呢件事情。佢哋提到話宏業有份參與投標,另外 18 宏業喺元朗一項工程提交嘅投票價竟然與另外一間公司四福建築(音)係完全一樣嘅。 19 就呢啲各種嘅問題,佢哋都曾經、居民亦都曾經提出過疑慮。佢哋嘅質疑係話點解有關 20 嘅承建商投標分析報告裏邊完全冇提及呢一啲資料?雖然有各種各樣嘅爭議,特別業主 21 大會亦都係照常投票,最終大會以80.5%嘅票數通過咗維修方案,佢哋通過嘅我哋叫做 22 維修方案三,拆除原有外牆嘅嗰個覆蓋層,以鋪設新嘅馬賽克瓷磚。而大會亦都以 23 54.79%嘅投票通過宏業建築作為有限公司嘅主承建商,當時金額係330,000,000。就呢 24 啲問題大家可以想象到有關投訴唔係停留喺業主之間嘅討論或者法庭嘅層面啦,佢哋亦 25 都有嘗試向有關政府部門投訴,其中一宗投訴,屋宇署回覆,我哋見到喺有關嘅電郵, 26 屋宇署指出宏福苑原本係公營房屋,係屬於ICU 嘅管轄範圍,所以屋宇署表示透過市建 27 局“招標妥”進行嘅商業招標唔係屋宇署嘅法律管轄範圍內。我哋見到呢一個3 月11 28 號嘅上高嗰個電郵。另外亦都有關嘅投訴唔係淨係屋宇署嘅,民政處亦都有收到有關假 29 代理人同埋圍標嘅投訴。我哋知道佢當時嘅態度就係佢哋唔應該係佢哋進行有關調查, 30 所以佢哋轉交咗畀市建局、競爭事務委員會,同埋有趣嘅係轉交咗宏福苑管理委員會。 31 但有關嘅投訴大家有留意到,管理委員會本身都係被投訴嘅對象嚟嘅,佢哋亦都建議有 32 關嘅業主自己尋求法律意見。大家而家睇到嘅係喺3 月18 號嘅另一宗轉交屋宇署嘅投 33 訴,大家見到呢一宗嘅,係民政事務署轉交屋宇署嘅投訴裏邊就咁樣表示嘅,如果用中 34

Evidential Hearing in relation to fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po

A Court Reporting Transcript by Epiq 28

文讀出嚟就係:“本署收到一宗有關一名註冊一般建築承建商同埋註冊專門承建商註冊 1 及履行職務嘅投訴,詳情請參閲前述電郵,內容註明由於事件涉及可能屋宇署或獨立調 2 查組管轄範圍,轉交貴處相關法例指引跟進,請直接回復投訴人。”另外我哋都見到喺 3 2024 年2 月15 號咧,2 月16 號,民政事務署亦都透過電郵回覆一名投訴人,表示關注 4 事件,但係就係叫佢哋應該向法團反映嘅。大家見到有關嘅電郵。喺2024 年1 月23 號 5 到4 月8 號期間,市建局一共收到7 封來自宏福苑嘅查詢電郵,關注大廈維修工程同埋 6 管理嘅問題,不過市建局對每封電郵嘅回覆基本上都係冇實質回應,市建局認為佢哋嘅 7 法定職權係唔包括監督樓宇管理、確保維修工程嘅質素同安全,或者解決呢啲問題產生 8 嘅議題,我哋以下睇到嘅就係其中一封市建局嘅回覆。可能係、就係因為有關嘅投訴未 9 得到任何政府部門嘅協助啦,喺2024 年嘅2 月宏福苑嘅業主結果就儲夠5%嘅業權,要 10 求召開緊急業主大會,重新選出管理委員會,解讀物業顧問公司,以及想推翻 11 330,000,000 元嘅工程合約,不過當時管理委員會主席鄧國權先生拒絕喺14 日內召開有 12 關嘅大會。因為呢件事有居民寫信去民政事務總署,要求民政事務總署插手、出手介入 13 啦。就呢一方面我哋見到根據《物業管理條例》第40A 條:民政事務總署有權介入管理 14 失效嘅樓宇、檢查佢哋嘅記錄同埋採取必要嘅行動,但當時民政事務總署就冇履行有關 15 嘅權力,佢哋嘅理由就係40A 條係佢哋所講嘅最後手段(English Spoken)。而喺呢個 16 情況,佢哋見到佢哋嘅解釋就係物業、管理委員會同管理公司仍然下配合到,會向民政 17 署提供基本嘅預算資料。我哋見到之後民政事務署大埔區辦事處其實係向鄧國權主席發 18 出四封勸予信(音)(English Spoken)提醒佢履行責任。主席、兩位委員,喺我哋見 19 到嘅爭議之下,結果有關嘅維修工程都係由鄧先生喺2 月16 日2024 年簽署咗嘅。接住 20 落嚟喺2024 年嘅6 月初,管理委員會就向業主發出付款安排嘅通知書,要求業主先行 21 繳付17 萬至18 萬元作為工程嘅預付款。當然,大家可以想象到有好多業主為呢件事表 22 達不滿,亦都喺7 月5 號再次聯署,要求召開大會重新選出管理委員會同埋延長付款嘅 23 安排。但當時身為主席嘅鄧國權亦都再一次冇理會呢個要求,喺14 日、喺法定嘅14 日 24 里面召開有關嘅會議。嗱,喺呢個情況底下,民政署亦都收到大量嘅投訴,佢哋依然係 25 向鄧國權發出勸予信。喺2024 年6 月至9 月期間,大埔區辦事處亦都收到另外19 宗書 26 面投訴,涉及嘅範疇係會議程序啦,同埋工程範圍同代理人票嘅問題。同時間,工程喺 27 2024 年7 月16 號正式展開,工程一度進行,投訴亦都不斷增加,當中包括一啲付款安 28 排嘅不滿啦,宏業未諮詢業主就將外牆嘅瓷磚改為、由紙皮石改為瓦仔啦。以及投訴宏 29 業向業主立案法團要求支付額外嘅費用,呢啲費用喺毅佢哋來講,佢哋聲稱係額外工 30 程,但係業主認為應該包入原本工程嘅項目裏面嘅。喺呢個問題上高,鴻毅最終係撤回 31 佢哋認為需要做呢啲額外工程嘅立場。喺呢一啲嘅郵件,我諗之後證人出庭作供嘅時 32 候,我哋會去睇一部分有關嘅投訴。好多居民覺得鴻毅作為工程顧問,本應係保障業主 33 嘅利益,但係喺眾多投訴面前,佢哋嘅感覺反而係偏幫咗宏業。呢個問題帶到我哋去火 34

Evidential Hearing in relation to fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po

A Court Reporting Transcript by Epiq 29

災之後嘅調查,呢啲嘅證據係現階段來講,我哋睇到係揭示咗好明顯嘅一個睇法,就係 1 鴻毅一直嘅所作所為係存在相當之大嘅問題。首先我哋睇到佢哋提交畀ICU 嘅一份叫做 2 MBI-1 嘅表格。我哋頭先提到嗰位吳先生(吳若),佢係宏福苑註冊檢驗人員,即係我 3 哋一路叫做RI。正如我哋之前所講,佢喺2023 年嘅12 月,吳若先生亦都係鴻毅嘅董事 4 同埋唯一嘅RI,所以吳若先生就肩負着宏福苑工程嘅監督責任,可想而知佢嘅角色係相 5 當於重要。因此就吳若先生嘅工作,尤其係考慮到業主大量嘅投訴,的確令大家出現咗 6 一個疑問。同時,鑑於之前工程使用物料呢啲一系列嘅基本問題,有人亦都質疑吳先生 7 怎樣監督宏福苑呢個工程。喺呢一度,委員會已經掌握咗吳若先生畀警方檢獲佢嘅電話 8 裏面一啲嘅WhatsApp 通信,我哋想喺呢個階段睇一睇相關嘅記錄,睇下當時他係點樣 9 樣被邀請去參加有關嘅工作。我喺呢度或者略略咁去解釋,呢一段WhatsApp 嘅內容似 10 乎係吳若先生早前所寫畀佢嘅全職僱主,佢解釋啲乜嘢咧?佢解釋點解會接咗兼職或者 11 佢所講嘅(English Spoken)嘅工作。我哋留意到呢段信息係由一個叫做(English 12 Spoken)所發出啦,所以呢個我哋相信係屬於(English Spoken),即係吳若先生嘅另 13 一部手機發出嘅信息嚟嘅。根據我哋嘅理解,吳若先生至少喺2019 年3 月前全職受僱 14 於太古地產,而且相關事件發生嘅時候,佢亦都應該仲係該公司嘅員工。重點係吳若先 15 生一開始就表示,佢想自己同最近大埔宏福苑嚴重火災事件關係做一個陳述,之後我哋 16 見到佢嘅有關嘅WhatsApp 陳述有幾點嘅:第一,佢承認根據宏福苑嘅強制驗樓計劃, 17 工程嘅MBI-1 表格,表面上顯示係佢獲任為該工程嘅註冊檢驗人員,即係佢係當時嘅 18 RI。不過佢又咁講哦,佢話:“我對錶格上簽名嘅合法性存疑,因為我並唔清楚該簽名 19 幾時或者係點樣籤嘅。”第二,即係所以我哋睇咗呢一個講法,我哋嘅質疑就係佢係咪 20 暗示有人偽造佢嘅簽名?佢係咪想同佢嘅僱主講,佢並唔係當時嘅RI 咧?嗱,但是佢又 21 咁講哦,之後佢講:佢承認同鴻毅之間顧問公司有聯繫,佢提到鴻毅原本嘅註冊檢驗人 22 員,有關嘅ROI 去世之後,鴻毅其中有位仍然在任嘅董事曾經同佢接觸,邀請佢以 23 (English Spoken)嘅身份協助擔任RI 嘅工作,佢表示佢係每個月獲得15,000 蚊嘅報 24 酬,作為自己名義及承擔責任履行註冊檢驗人員職務嘅報酬。另外,佢都提到有個別工 25 程完成嘅情況咧,佢係會得到一啲獎金嘅,雖然雙方並冇書面嘅合約,但直至嗰個時候 26 為止,佢係收咗190,000 嘅,大家睇到中間第二個格仔裏面係咁樣講嘅。吳先生亦都表 27 示,佢參與係只限於簽署提供畀佢嘅指定表格同埋檢驗報告,並非實際參與強制驗樓計 28 劃嘅相關工作或者維修,包括宏福苑項目。佢其後喺呢啲通信裏邊亦都表示:對於未有 29 申報呢段關係同埋相關報道因此亦可能對我哋公司,佢講嘅係(English Spoken)造成 30 嘅影響,向佢當時嘅僱主致歉。所以我哋睇到佢其實係同佢嘅僱主表示佢有收取鴻毅嘅 31 酬勞,自己當時的的確確名義上係RI。但係如果聽照佢同佢哋僱主嘅描述,佢明顯地係 32 一個“橡皮圖章”。由於當時吳先生係宏福苑同鴻毅唯一嘅註冊檢驗人員,佢呢一個説 33 法當然令人相當之憂慮,如果佢嘅説法屬實,喺法例底下要求RI 做嘅工作,佢有可能係 34

Evidential Hearing in relation to fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po

A Court Reporting Transcript by Epiq 30

完全冇履行過。接着落嚟我哋想播一段就係吳先生喺2025 年11 月同一名中間人嘅對 1 話,似乎係就一份新嘅呢的(English Spoken)工作嘅協商嚟嘅(播放短片)。啱啱聽 2 到嘅就係嗰箇中間人向佢提出有關呢個工作嘅安排,大家聽到佢嘅講法,其實基本上就 3 係邀請吳先生,大家聽到有啲用字“齋籤文件”或者“扮下嘢去應付屋宇署嘅檢查。” 4 我哋再聽落去,吳先生唔係拒絕嘅,佢係表示有興趣嘅,不過當然,價錢係一個問題。 5 (播放短片)大家聽到呢度,相信都會明白到點解我哋會揀呢段錄音出嚟,大家明顯地 6 睇到呢箇中間人向佢嘅提議,不僅佢要(English Spoken)一啲文件,籤咗一啲其實已 7 經係用一個較早前日期倒籤、倒籤日期去籤一啲文件,當中亦都提到其實唔係只係佢有 8 興趣,當然我哋唔知呢個真定假,提到有其他AP(English Spoken)認可人士亦都對 9 呢個工程有興趣。當然,正如我哋之前所講,宏福苑係一個例子,委員會要審視一下係 10 呢行裏邊呢啲嘅做法普唔普遍咧?所以呢一個係有關作為一個例子嘅證據。 11 陸啟康法官:其實我想同你澄清一下,因為其實呢個、即係如果呢啲指控成立,代表可能嗰個RI 12 冇做到佢嘅工作喇,同埋呢個行規,但係同圍標同埋不當行為係兩件事,係咪? 13 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢個唔係一個直接嘅證據係有圍標嘅,當然。呢個嘅重點就係當時RI 有冇履 14 行佢個責任?佢對呢個工程或者對其他相關嘅工程,人哋對佢嘅要求同佢個工作範圍究 15 竟係啲乜嘢咧?當然呢個亦都係引申咗一個非常之令人擔心嘅情況,如果RI 只不過係一 16 個“橡皮圖章”嘅話,邊個負責去監督有關嘅工程咧?跟住落嚟,我哋想去睇一睇同埋 17 下一份嘅證據,呢個係吳先生同埋王合賢(音)先生關於有關嘅一啲工程嘅對話(播放 18 短片)。我諗有幾方面我哋可以作出一啲嘅補充:第一,並唔係好似吳先生同佢僱主所 19 講,佢完全一啲都冇參與過嘅,起碼我哋最少揾到有至少一個範疇,王合賢係同佢有啲 20 來來往往嘅。但是除咗呢一點之外,我哋係見到其他嘅證據裏邊,我哋就再揾唔到其實 21 有其他嘅通信係關於佢係宏福苑作為RI 嘅工作。換句話講,佢有冇真係履行佢嘅職責? 22 呢個係一個非常之大嘅疑問,如果就係睇而家揾到有限嘅證據咧,嗰答案我哋話、我哋 23 嘅陳詞個答案就係顯而易見嘅。第二,你亦都見到,到最尾其實只係、都係得番一啲來 24 來往往,譬如銀行嘅入數紙嘅圖片嘅啫,就冇其他關於工程其他範疇嘅資料可以揾到㗎 25 喇。委員會亦都掌握到,其實吳先生係點樣接咗鴻毅呢啲(English Spoken)嘅工作 26 嘅?當時吳先生係透過一位洪國偉(音)先生係得悉鴻毅有關嘅工作,而我哋而家見到 27 嘅資料裏邊,呢位洪國偉似乎同鴻毅有非同尋常嘅關係。以下係洪國偉先生被警方檢獲 28 手機裏邊嘅WhatsApp 通訊,顯示洪國偉曾經聯絡吳若先生,向吳若先生提出有關嘅 29 (English Spoken)嘅工作(播放短片),大家留意最上一格,大家見到中間,係喇, 30 嗰度提到有一個月薪啦,就係話包括公司嘅市建局上名、籤屋宇署等表格、驗樓報告、 31 舞台外廊伸出物嘅報告等,所有圖則設計、入則另計,跟住講到其他薪金。我哋需要考 32 慮嘅就係睇呢啲嘅信息裏邊我哋提到,其實佢係咪只係負責簽署相關嘅表格?只係每當 33 有額外檢驗嘅工作時候先至再另付一啲嘅額外酬金畀佢咧?此外,我哋亦都檢驗咗吳若 34

Evidential Hearing in relation to fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po

A Court Reporting Transcript by Epiq 31

先生作為RI 嘅另外一啲嘅記錄嘅,我哋睇到啲乜嘢咧?其實有關嘅WhatsApp 記錄睇 1 到,似乎佢並唔係有一個習性去話呢一份工作係、就算佢全職或者兼職嘅工作也好,佢 2 係全面就每一方面都會去處理,只係有零碎咁有事嘅時候係會有人通知佢哋,或者揾下 3 佢嘅啫。另外一啲信息會顯示呢一點,例如喺12 點06 分54 秒,最上高。你見到佢 4 講:“偉哥,你好,今晚可以,我正在更新工作列表,最近幾次簽了不少新工程,今晚 5 幾點跟你聯絡?”似乎我哋見到嘅情況就係會係儲埋、儲埋一堆文件,你嚟一次過籤曬 6 佢。而喺3 點52 分48 秒,我哋亦都見到一啲發放獎金嘅清單畀佢嘅,大家會見到有啲 7 (English Spoken)喺嗰啲WhatsApp 嘅短信嗰度。呢啲獎金嘅清單嘅作者其實我哋睇 8 到有關嘅資料,作者就係Wilson Ng 佢自己,內容就係列出多份嘅表格,全部都由吳若 9 先生以註冊人員RI 嘅身份參與,當中包括宏福苑。你見到中間,我哋見到嗰行:“總獎 10 金係150,000 元。”而喺呢啲嘅列表度我哋睇到啲咩咧?由2025 年嘅10 月1 日直到 11 11 月10 日期間,吳若先生簽署咗84 份表格,當中涉及56 個不同嘅項目,對一名本身 12 已經有全職工作,淨係用(English Spoken)身份為鴻毅擔任檢測人員嘅人士嚟講,的 13 的確確大家都會有一個懷疑,係佢點可以喺56 個項目裏面都去簽署相關法定文件?佢有 14 冇可能就咁大量嘅項目進行適當嘅監督?另外我哋都見到一啲WhatsApp 係講到係洪國 15 偉先生話畀吳若聽,ICU 可能會聯絡佢,因為呢個有關日子喺11 月26 號下午3 點39 16 分,時間大家見到喺右邊。大家如果見到最中間嗰行,59 分,15 點39 分,再拉過左手 17 邊你會見到“ICU 可能會聯絡閣下。”如果你向下兩行,你會睇到、會提到“三級火? 18 仲未救熄?”再落去你會睇到嘅就係“請問事實是否如此啦?”跟住佢就話:“承建商 19 係責任最大,但係顧問都會被查問有否做足工地安全監督。”其後我哋知道吳先生同洪 20 國偉先生安排咗見面,喺火警當晚嘅10 點44 分,洪國偉向吳先生送達咗一份簽署咗股 21 權轉讓文件,呢份文件嗌嚟做乜?就是將吳先生係鴻毅嘅股份轉畀王合賢先生。我哋見 22 到呢一啲嘅文件,相信會令我哋產生更加多嘅疑問,大家亦都會可能想到吳先生嘅行為 23 會不會需要負上民事或者刑事嘅責任?但正如主席一再強調,呢一個唔係我哋職權範疇 24 想研究嘅項目,但對於有冇一啲係維修工程裏邊嘅不當行為?呢一啲嘅證據係非常之關 25 鍵嘅。頭先睇到嘅證據,我諗我哋可以歸納為幾個情況去會做一個總結:第一就係招標 26 過程裏面我哋見到出現咗好多不當嘅情況,包括鴻毅刻意隱瞞宏業嘅訴訟記錄同定罪記 27 錄啦,呢樣嘢令到宏業好似表面上顯得更加吸引。喺有關嘅業主大會里面,佢哋本身嘅 28 程序係咪有問題咧?呢個直接影響到招標程序嘅公正性。與此同時,大家過去嗰半小時 29 亦都睇到負責監督工程嘅註冊人員吳若先生似乎實際上只係一個“橡皮圖章”,最令人 30 擔心嘅就係佢點可以係同一時間做50 幾個工程?我哋可以講我哋見到宏福苑嘅問題喺大 31 型屋苑維修裏面相信唔係第一次出現。我哋亦都有理由相信呢啲嘅情況唔係罕見嘅。點 32 解我哋咁講咧?其實委員會已經喺較早前收到多個執法部門就大型維修工程市場圍標 33 啦、貪污啦、不當嘅關聯利益啦,或者其他嘅不當行為提供、所提供嘅寶貴意見。總括 34

Evidential Hearing in relation to fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po

A Court Reporting Transcript by Epiq 32

嚟講,執法部門交畀委員會嘅資料信息係一致嘅,問題係廣泛而普遍,而係必須嚴肅咁 1 樣去處理。我哋留意到競委會喺開案陳詞裏面有幾個觀察。為咗在場冇睇過有關文件嘅 2 人士,我想強調以下幾點:第一,根據競委會嘅市場研究同埋調查,發現有相當多嘅樓 3 宇維修工程之間存在普遍、系統化同埋長期嘅做法,旨在操控樓宇維修工程裏面嘅招標 4 結果。佢哋話呢啲做法有時,但未必會係因為相關樓宇業主所聘用,同埋理應獨立顧問 5 作出嘅不當行為而助長嘅。我哋過去嗰一個小時睇到宏福苑嘅例子,我相信係表面上高 6 最少我哋可以話係有呢啲嘅憂慮。呢啲做法包括乜嘢咧?第一,圍標啦(English 7 Spoken),即係承建商之間達成協議,其中一方同意唔投標或者應一方嘅要求撤回佢嘅 8 標書,或者兩個或以上嘅承建商之間透過協議達成有關嘅投標價格。點解咁做咧?有時 9 佢哋係、唔係每一次都要中標,因為有一個合謀喺度,佢哋可以用呢個靈活性去控制邊 10 一次用邊間公司中標。另外一啲嘅普遍做法,包括交換商業上高競爭性嘅敏感資料啦, 11 例如有冇協議實際操控情況之下交換佢哋投標嘅價格或者標書嘅內容啦。另外一個普遍 12 嘅做法佢哋提到係瓜分市場,你去做呢個區,我做第二個區,我哋照投,但我哋避免直 13 接嘅競爭,你分一份,我分一份。另外一個普遍嘅做法就係借用名義去操控投標,有關 14 嘅做法可能係牽涉到一間承建商只係借出自己嘅信紙,借出所謂嘅(English 15 Spoken),你用我嘅名義去做啦,公司嘅履歷同埋電郵賬户有時都畀埋另外一個承建商 16 去使用,可以等佢哋用呢個方案去投標,去掩飾自己嘅投標價。事實上好多時呢啲情 17 況,啲公司表面上係互相獨立嘅,但係實際上其實係由一個人或者一班人去操控相關嘅 18 承建商,然後係用呢啲表面上獨立嘅公司投標。我哋見到喺本案裏邊亦都有一系列嘅公 19 司似乎係有關聯嘅,而呢啲嘅關聯係咪恰當咧?有待佢哋去解釋。市場上高亦都存在集 20 團主導嘅圍標集團,英文嘅名詞係(English Spoken),佢哋當中有清晰嘅運作機制 21 啦,例如登記制度,有啲佢哋叫做分派功課啦,以及有帶頭人或者統領者負責協調,呢 22 啲集團往往牽涉幾十間維修同埋顧問公司。佢哋亦都提到有部分樓宇維修工程同顧問公 23 司其實係被指與三合會組織有聯繫,而呢啲組織亦都可能透過非法手段,例如威嚇甚至 24 唔排除使用暴力去促成有關嘅反競爭行為。競委會嘅研究有相當數量上嘅表面上嘅證據 25 睇到,喺獨立顧問呢一個範疇,佢哋提交嘅價格其實係遠低於去做有關項目所需嘅成 26 本,佢哋獲取報酬嘅方式其實就唔係靠有關合約嘅價格當中去獲取。當中好可能係牽涉 27 其他嘅利益輸送,喺今次嘅案件裏面亦都有人懷疑鴻毅作為工程顧問所提交嘅標價係異 28 常咁低。至於警方方面,警方嘅證人亦都向我哋提供咗相當有用嘅資料,經過警方嘅觀 29 察、經驗同埋可靠情報,佢哋係咁講嘅:“有少數三合會背景人士成立並經營顧問公司 30 同建築承建商公司參與維修工程,有關嘅證人亦都指出顧問同承建商之間充斥着串通、 31 貪污、秘密共識,而呢啲嘅情況亦都係普遍嘅。”我哋之後再、有關嘅資料唔喺頭先顯 32 示嗰段,我哋之後再提供番有關嘅段落畀委員會。最後我哋想提一提廉政公署提交畀我 33 哋嘅一啲嘅資料,廉政公署其實提供咗喺過往就大型維修工程招標裏面涉及貪污同埋圍 34

Evidential Hearing in relation to fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po

A Court Reporting Transcript by Epiq 33

標行為嘅調查,以及佢哋作出嘅檢控為例,所以佢哋提供嘅資料有、其實有好大一部分 1 係一啲公開資料,同埋佢哋有一啲就當然係查緊嘅案,所以資料比較保密。廉署特別指 2 出,係註冊檢測人員,即係我哋頭先提到嘅RI 嗰方面,佢哋可以喺建築工程嘅前、中、 3 後都扮演關鍵嘅角色,所以佢哋呢一個角色係最容易受到貪污或者其他不當嘅行為所影 4 響。直至2025 年12 月,屋宇署登記嘅註冊檢驗人員有600 人,其中其實只有128 人表 5 示有興趣參與強制驗樓計劃嘅服務,因為相關嘅人數偏少,有興趣做呢啲工程嘅註冊人 6 員並唔多,佢哋覺得呢個亦都覺得大大咁加大相關嘅風險、貪污嘅風險同埋其他嘅不當 7 行為。廉署亦都提到佢哋亦都有證據去顯示有一啲測量師、工程師同埋建築師其實係唔 8 願意加入呢一個大廈樓宇維修嘅市場,原因係因為佢哋亦都會擔心被一啲不良嘅經營者 9 恐嚇啦,喺佢哋嘅理解裏邊,呢啲嘅壞分子包括一啲三合會同埋有背景嘅人士,佢哋亦 10 都擔心去做呢啲嘅工程,你嘅競爭對手往往係會一啲採取恐嚇或者不公平嘅競爭手法去 11 令到佢哋卻步,基本上佢哋嘅睇法係呢類型嘅工程佢哋唔值得去做。廉署嘅睇法就係其 12 實呢個係一個惡性循環來嘅,沒新血加入,大型樓宇維修項目工程市場就往往畀同一班 13 人,好多時係有一啲有背景嘅人士所操控同埋影響,導致市場嘅參與者好多時被牽制。 14 廉署嘅意見係我哋一定要想辦法打破呢一啲嘅問題,用一啲針對性嘅方法去逆轉呢一啲 15 情況,呢一個係廉署嘅意見。主席,我想喺呢個階段去睇番你嘅職權範圍,大家見到過 16 去嗰差不多兩日,我哋就職權範圍一其實已經向大家展示咗我哋而家初步睇到嘅一啲情 17 況,對於宏福苑起火,火勢迅速蔓延,造成大量人命傷亡嘅成因,從有關影片、從我哋 18 見到當時嘅錄影,我哋相信大家都有一個基本嘅認知。至於大廈裝置嘅消防系統設備以 19 及其他運作嘅監督同埋監管問題,我哋喺今日較早前亦都就唔同嘅方面向委員會作出咗 20 陳述。就呢方面,我哋嘅陳述牽涉咗有關法例嘅要求啦、監管制度啦、準備當時使用嘅 21 物料啦,同埋每個唔同持份者嘅角色,就職權範圍一而言,正如主席一路都有提過,無 22 論喺之前嘅指示會議或者開案時候,我哋都有提過,可能大家覺得職權範圍一喺嚟緊星 23 期裏面聽嘅證供會比較多,呢個唔係代表我哋只係關注職權範圍一,我哋再想強調嘅就 24 係分析過有關嘅證據嚟講,職權範圍一里面的的確確有一啲證人、有一啲嘅資料,我哋 25 覺得需要喺我哋而家嘅聽證會里邊慢慢咁向公眾陳述嘅。所以之後,喺開案陳詞之後, 26 大家首先會聽到一啲當時喺宏福苑嘅居民向我哋去解釋當時嘅情況。我亦都想喺呢度去 27 強調,唔係每一位嘅居民,我哋都會邀請佢嚟去作供。當然,有一啲因為自己嘅理由唔 28 想再複述當時嘅情況,呢個我哋係相當之理解。另外一啲居民嘅情況可能佢同我哋已經 29 叫咗、我哋已經安排咗嘅證人嘅資料重疊,或者證據方面我哋從其他範疇睇到,所以我 30 哋係並冇邀請有關嘅人士,當然,我哋希望佢哋明白呢個唔係對佢哋嘅不敬或者唔尊 31 重。另一個主要嘅範疇就係有關持份者嘅證供,之後大家會聽到政府部門啦,同埋其他 32 持份者嘅證人,好多其實已經向委員會提供咗相當重要嘅證據,例如過去嗰兩日見到我 33 哋顯示嘅部分嘅證人陳述書,其實相關人士提供嘅證人陳述書係往往令我哋感到意外 34

Evidential Hearing in relation to fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po

A Court Reporting Transcript by Epiq 34

嘅,因為就當時發生嘅事件,好多證人陳述書都相當全面,而且大家都睇到啦。當中可 1 能有一啲比較敏感或者可能涉及不當行為,有關人士其實都係照直咁樣、全面咁講咗出 2 嚟。有少部分人士當然提交咗證人陳述書,但係佢哋提到佢哋唔想出庭作供(口供), 3 出嚟我哋呢個委員會作供,呢個佢哋有自己嘅理由,每個相關人士嘅情況都唔同,但係 4 我哋嘅大原則就係如果我哋對有關人士係有特別嘅指控,我哋係會畀機會,第一,畀佢 5 知道我哋嘅指控係啲乜嘢,同埋將有關證據向佢哋質詢嘅,所以其實係過往嘅3 個月委 6 員會已經、委員會嘅律師已經向有關嘅人士作出咗大量嘅書信來往,有相關嘅單位其實 7 係收到唔止一封質詢,我哋係、有啲係問到第6 封、第7 封嘅。所以我哋想提出嘅就係 8 雖然有一啲人士,大家喺之後嘅聆訊唔會聽到佢哋出庭作供,但呢個唔代表佢哋冇提供 9 重要嘅資料。喺適當嘅時候,我哋會將佢哋嘅資料繼續喺委員會嘅聆訊裏邊同大家分 10 享。最後一方面就係專家證人,喺專家證人嗰方面,大家都知道除咗政府有佢哋嘅專家 11 之外,委員會亦都有聘請咗理工大學嘅兩位專家,佢哋而家亦都係好忙碌咁去繼續進行 12 分析,因為有關、有一啲嘅資料或者可能有一啲研究,佢哋仍然係分析中,有一啲實驗 13 佢哋會繼續會做嘅。我哋秉持嘅原則都係當我哋攞到佢哋相關嘅結果之後,我哋一定會 14 第一時間同受影響嘅持份者去分享佢哋有關嘅報告同埋結果。至於職權範疇二,過去嗰 15 半小時我都略略咁樣同大家展述過,喺之後證人嘅盤問裏面,我哋見到其實有好多證 16 人,你唔可以好清楚咁分開佢嘅證供只係涉及職權範圍一或者職權範圍二嘅,所以有部 17 分嘅證供的的確確係會帶到去範疇二。最後我想重複一個重要嘅原則,就係因為呢一個 18 唔係我哋平時可能好多在座同時處理開嘅民事或者刑事訴訟,大家其實係要面對職權範 19 疇嘅議題,去向委員會表達我哋嘅陳詞啦,同埋提供相關嘅證據。我哋委員會律師團隊 20 嘅原則就係我哋一定會讓各涉事方有足夠時間去分析我哋會利用嘅證據,如果對你哋有 21 任何指控,喺你哋證人出庭之前,我哋會將有關嘅指控向你徹底咁樣去解釋,令到你哋 22 有時間去處理有關嘅指控。主席,我琴日提到我嘅陳詞可能係要去到下星期二,通常我 23 哋喺法庭早講完係唔會受到法官嘅斥責,超時通常法庭唔係好開心,希望法官閣下對於 24 我哋早完係冇特別不滿嘅意見。多謝曬。 25 陸啟康法官:好,但係因為我哋都有嗰個時間嘅限制啦。 26 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白。 27 陸啟康法官:咁我想問一問,其實我哋可唔可以今日,我哋而家休息一陣之後,會唔會有各方面 28 其他嘅可以今日作出陳詞咧? 29 孫靖乾資深大律師:主席,或者我首先代表政府即係講一講,我諗我哋都會希望,尤其首先多謝 30 呢個獨立委員會嘅代表大律師團隊啦,咁係佢哋嘅開場嘅陳詞。我哋都會係好慎重咁去 31 考慮,所以希望亦都可以係我哋直接係下個星期二就係進行,代表政府方面嘅開場陳 32 詞。咁可能我只係需要有一個好簡短,可能係1 分鐘,我純粹講一下我哋會交代乜嘢, 33 咁但係就、其他嘅內容我就希望我哋喺下星期二嘅時候就去處理,我可能、唔知主席唔 34

Evidential Hearing in relation to fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po

A Court Reporting Transcript by Epiq 35

會想聽一聽其他嘅涉事方佢哋嘅立場? 1 陸啟康法官:所以我諗簡單來講,政府就想要點時間去消化? 2 孫靖乾資深大律師:我諗都係一次過,下個星期二,我諗對成件事來講會更加適合嘅,係喇。 3 陸啟康法官:有冇其他嘅涉事方想喺今日做陳詞?都係想喺下星期。 4 孫靖乾資深大律師:如果係…主席係咁嘅情況,可唔可以允許我用一個好短嘅時間,純粹係…即 5 係我諗係交代下我下個星期係想講嘅嗰個內容,好簡單,一分鐘嘅啫。 6 陸啟康法官:一分鐘,得,但是我哋需唔需要考慮一下,我哋會唔會提早傳召證人? 7 孫靖乾資深大律師:可以,我們都會想… 8 陸啟康法官:會不會考慮一下咧? 9 杜淦堃資深大律師:主席,其實… 10 陸啟康法官:我哋而家小休一陣,然後先至大家決定我哋下星期應該點樣。 11 杜淦堃資深大律師:主席,基於我哋今早睇到進度,我哋其實已經有討論可能會提早傳召證人, 12 但係喺呢個階段我哋未能確實回覆幾時可以開始,因為相關嘅證人我哋要同佢去聯絡, 13 更改佢來到委員會作供嘅時間,但係我哋、協助我哋嘅律師事務所其實已經開始同佢哋 14 聯絡咗。 15 陸啟康法官:不如咁啦,我諗現階段我哋冇一個實際嘅…我明白嘅,因為你聯絡證人。但係我都 16 係度做一個,或者有興趣聽審嘅朋友,或者傳媒朋友都好,我哋係有機會、我只可以講 17 有機會,我哋可能會提早傳召證人,我可唔可以咁講咧? 18 杜淦堃資深大律師:主席,甚至如果可以安排到嘅話,如果另外在場嘅涉事方大家都會依照之前 19 嘅估計喺半小時之內完成佢哋嘅開案陳詞,我哋甚至可以考慮星期二得唔得,當然要睇 20 一睇有關證人有冇時間。 21 陸啟康法官:明白,我哋現階段不會作出任何嘅,我希望現階段或者通知聲啦,如果嗰一日先至 22 通知可能有啲遲。 23 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,如果知道嘅話,我哋會同各涉事方溝通。 24 陸啟康法官:因為我諗即係公眾都會好、好想知道幾時會有呢件事。我哋現階段唔可以作準,但 25 係我哋有機會喺下個星期二嘅下晝傳召證人。我想問一問孫資深大律師你有冇嘢想講, 26 即係而家係… 27 孫靖乾資深大律師:如果主席同埋兩位委員,如果冇其他事,或者我好快就下個星期二,我諗住 28 會覆蓋嘅內容好簡短嘅講一講。咁至於證人方面我哋都會歡迎,如果係早啲,我哋係獨 29 立委員會嘅代表大律師知道嘅情況就可以話畀我哋知,同埋話畀其他嘅涉事方知道,咁 30 我哋都可以作出相應嘅準備嘅。咁關於下個星期二嘅開案陳詞,我淨係想講我哋都、呢 31 兩日聽到呢個獨立委員會嘅代表大律師嘅開場陳詞,咁開場陳詞嗰個覆蓋嘅範圍係相當 32 之廣泛,亦都涉及要調查範圍裏邊嘅好多重要嘅議題,亦都係包含咗一啲新嘅證據同埋 33 材料,社會各界對此亦都有廣泛嘅關注。咁所以正如我頭先所講,考慮到呢啲咁嘅情 34

Evidential Hearing in relation to fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po

A Court Reporting Transcript by Epiq 36

況,我哋希望代表政府就係下週二一次過去就係進行口頭嘅開場陳詞。咁我哋將會尤其 1 就呢個強制驗樓計劃、小型工程嘅監管制度等等嘅現行機制、相關嘅歷史背景同埋實施 2 嘅情況亦都會向委員會作出一個介紹同埋説明,相信呢個對委員會喺你哋職權範圍裏邊 3 去審視各方嘅角色等等都有幫助。咁當然,我哋都理解喺口頭陳詞嘅時間限制之下,無 4 論係獨立委員會以至係政府或者其他涉事方嘅律師團隊,都未必能夠就每一項嘅事宜去 5 作一個完整嘅陳詞。咁政府嘅開場陳詞都會喺就若干我哋認為係喺現階段需要補充嘅背 6 景事項啦,提供我哋認為係適切嘅,或者更為重要嘅陳述。咁同時如果我哋認為有一些 7 遺漏或者未盡準確嘅地方咧,我哋都會希望儘可能喺嗰個時間範圍以內重點咁樣係讓獨 8 立委員會同埋社會公眾可以聽取更為平衡同埋完整嘅陳述。咁我暫時要交代嘅就係咁多 9 啦。 10 陸啟康法官:咁我哋今日嘅聆訊到此為止,我哋會喺下星期二。 11 李律仁資深大律師:主席、兩位委員,委員會知道我係代表第二任嘅管委會,管委會中間曾經換 12 過、換過人啦,第二任管委會15 位委員有一位過世,剩番14 位,我代表佢哋13 位 13 嘅。委員會可能知道呢個第二任管委會嘅主席有一個簡單嘅陳詞,我哋基本上嘅諗法係 14 唔需要法律代表作陳詞,我哋亦都唔會有好多、好多嘅嘢想講,我哋理解到委員會嘅程 15 序其實越早展開,我哋越早能夠還原真相,其實對管委會仲在生嘅成員,同埋所有災 16 民,無論在世定屋企人過咗世嘅居民都係好重要嘅一件事,既然考慮到呢一度,如果主 17 席同兩位委員覺得適合嘅,我會提議畀第二任管委會嘅主任徐先生直接同委員講佢簡單 18 嘅,我唔想叫做開案陳詞,一個簡單嘅陳詞,希望能夠用盡今日嘅時間,其實佢幾分鐘 19 嘅啫,咁星期二就可以聽其他涉事方,委員覺得好唔好啊? 20 陸啟康法官:我哋…如果係咁,不如我哋押後十分鐘,跟住我哋聽佢嘅陳詞。 21 李律仁資深大律師:多謝主席,多謝委員。 22

23 15 時26 分聆訊押後 24 15 時35 分聆訊恢復 25

26 陸啟康法官:係,徐先生,你係想作開案陳詞?係嘛? 27 徐滿柑:係,多謝主席。 28 陸啟康法官:好,你而家可以開始。 29 徐滿柑:好。主席,兩位委員,同埋各位街坊,我喺徐滿柑,我係宏福苑嘅第十二屆業主立案法 30 團管委會嘅第二任主席。我謹代表15 位尚存嘅,其中15 位成員尚在14 位嘅其中13 位 31 代表出席呢個聽證會。咁好多謝委員會畀呢個機會我喺度講出呢個真相,我哋會竭盡所 32 能將我哋知嘅記得嘅都講曬畀大家聽,希望還原個真相畀大家,好嗎?我諗大家都知 33 道,其實我哋第十二屆管委會其實有兩任嘅,咁其實當初上一任咧就已經批出咗嗰個大 34

Evidential Hearing in relation to fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po

A Court Reporting Transcript by Epiq 37

維修嘅合約,咁當中都會有好多爭議。咁當期時就我啦,同埋、連埋其他街坊就覺得需 1 要去、去了解,咁所以我哋決定出嚟,咁就去簽署呢個5%,就去開呢個業主大會,最後 2 就成立咗而家第二任嘅業主立案法團。咁咁其實宏福苑咧就係我哋委員嘅一個屋企啦, 3 咁1983 年開始我吖爸就買咗嗰度,咁我嗰陣時手抱已經係住咗入嚟,一住就住到直情 4 着火之後,咁當中好多回憶。咁、咁其實…唔好意思。其實宏福苑裏面即係除咗係我哋 5 住嘅一個地方,包含住我哋好多唔同嘅回憶。唔好意思。咁我哋一啲委員其實都係由細 6 住到大,咁亦都有啲委員最後都揀咗宏福苑做佢哋嘅家,所以就買咗入嚟,我哋一班嘅 7 委員咁就坐埋一起,我哋一起爭取我哋爭取嘅嘢。當中裏面嘅地方… 8 陸啟康法官:徐生,如果你需要休息,我哋可以… 9 徐滿柑:對唔住,仲有好多我哋忘記唔到嘅棚架、滑滑梯,細個所有嘢都喺曬呢度。好,咁我哋 10 講番11 月26 號發生咗個史無前例嘅火災,我哋嘅摯友、我哋嘅朋友,甚至乎一哋認為 11 我哋認為好親嘅親人都喺呢個火災度離世,仲有我好朋友嘅太太,我陪佢先生一齊等候 12 消防員救佢太太,陪住我哋至親嘅人,啲家屬一齊等,我哋好親好親嘅人。呢個時候發 13 生火災,我哋既係災民,亦都係管委會,我又要照顧我嘅屋企,我哋同啲委員安頓咗屋 14 企人之後,仲留守喺馮梁結嗰度繼續去幫助其他災民。就算佢哋受盡指責,我哋都冇 15 理。我哋淨係做我哋認為應該要做嘅嘢,繼續、繼續24 小時都喺馮梁結去安排居民。我 16 哋、我哋…所以我哋今日嚟到都希望可以盡我哋能力將我哋知嘅可以話到畀各位,希望 17 委員會可以揾到一個真相出嚟。宏福苑收到呢個強制驗樓令喺2024 年4 月16 號嗰陣 18 時,由第一任嘅委員同埋呢個承建商簽訂合同,喺4 月份,就喺6 月份就收到一個律師 19 信,就叫我哋大概7 個半月分6 期交15 至18 萬。我哋當時覺得好睏惑,即係我哋一般 20 市民,短短半年我哋要籌十幾萬,我哋打個突,所以我哋特別去關注出嚟,就組成而家 21 我哋呢一班嘅委員。當我哋成功接任呢一個委員之後,我哋即刻就已經係開嗰啲工程 22 會,每個星期六我哋都有開工程會,啲居民都係自由參與,畀佢哋自己自由入嚟,我哋 23 冇話唔畀佢哋發言,冇話佢係居民定係業主,我哋都畀佢去。我哋仲搞好多次,12 次解 24 説會、交流會,482 日里邊我哋開咗68 次會議,差不多7 日就一個會議。然後我哋仲將 25 所有嗰啲文件、嗰啲月結報告、會議記錄,全部都放曬上網,亦都有做呢個直播嘅解説 26 會,希望畀其他居民可以一同參與。即係我想表達就係我哋管委會即係唔係呢個、呢方 27 面嘅專家,但我哋都真係盡曬力,儘量將我哋啲嘢都同大家講,希望大家都可以一齊參 28 與。雖然我哋即係咁辛苦,但係我哋一係唔做,我哋又唔想咁求其,所以盡咗、盡我哋 29 能力,就算而家發生到呢個事,我哋都唔想逃避。我希望可以配合到調查,盡番我哋應 30 有嘅責任。主席,宏福苑呢一場悲劇我哋係成為一個最、最直接關係嘅一個代表,就算 31 我哋而家面對呢個困難,但係我哋都堅持,但係其實我哋而家、我哋咁講可以話叫做面 32 對好大、好沉重嘅,可能財政壓力吖,或者係專業知識嘅,根本我哋都係冇一啲法律 33 嘅、嘅知識。喺呢個咁、呢個咁困難嘅時間,我好感謝有一班律師嘅團隊肯幫忙去、代 34

Evidential Hearing in relation to fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po

A Court Reporting Transcript by Epiq 38

表我哋去出席呢一個聽證會。我希望可以幫到今次嘅聽證會查出真相。但係因為資源上 1 嘅落差,容許我哋未必、法律團隊每一日都可以留喺度,希望大家可以理解。喺呢個火 2 災之後,其實外界都對我哋有好多唔同嘅揣測吖、評論。咁我好多謝委員會畀呢個機會 3 我,可以講番我哋所知嘅真相出嚟,可以釐清番個事實。我哋較早前都將我哋而家揾番 4 出嚟嘅資料都2021 年呈交咗畀委員會喇,咁希望可以幫到大家手。咁呢幾日裏面我哋 5 都聽到一啲係委員會調查、公佈出嚟嘅資訊,咁能夠咁短時間可以歸納成一個今日、呢 6 兩日嘅一個簡報,我覺得係、同埋揾出重點出嚟,我覺得委員會好犀利,付出咗好多, 7 好多謝你哋將個真相呈現畀大家聽,我會有信心委員會可以幫到我哋宏福苑居民同埋市 8 民,有一個真相可以畀到大家。咁時間所限,我唔能夠逐一多謝曾經幫過宏福苑嘅各 9 界,或者、甚至乎係可能、可能支持下我哋嗰啲所有其他大眾市民啊、捐款所有人,雖 10 然我唔能夠逐一多謝,但我希望呢一種互相扶持,守望相助嘅呢一顆心係成為、繼續成 11 為我哋香港人嘅核心價值,多謝各位。 12 陸啟康法官:好多謝徐先生嘅發言。咁唔知仲有冇其他嘅涉事方想喺今日發言?如果冇,我多謝 13 徐先生嘅發言喇。咁我哋嘅聆訊就會喺下星期二朝頭早10 點鐘繼續進行。多謝各位。 14

15 15 時50 分聆訊押後 16 (聆訊將於2026 年3 月24 日10 時00 分繼續) 17

FD06242 | 2025_港澳台_香港宏福苑大火_Transcript-(Chinese)_20260324.pdf

分类:06_境外及港澳台调查报告 | 年份:2025 | 地域:香港 | 严重程度: | 场所: | 起火原因: | 来源格式:pdf

Evidential Hearing in relation to fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po

A Court Reporting Transcript by Epiq 1

就大埔宏福苑火災成立的獨立委員會

聽證會

高等法院原訟法庭陸啟康法官 陳健波議員 歐陽伯權博士

日期

第三天 2026 年3 月24 日

杜淦堃資深大律師, 李澍桓大律師, 俞匡庭大律師, 馮天榮大律師, 張天風大 律師, 李俊軒大律師, 陳佩恩律師, 許振軒律師 (受羅文錦律師樓指示代表 獨立委員會)

許偉強資深大律師代表置邦興業有限公司

孫靖乾資深大律師, 卓元暢大律師及劉逸冲大律師代表政府

李律仁資深大律師及柯愷欣大律師代表宏福苑業主立案法團第十二屆管理 委員會

Evidential Hearing in relation to fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po

A Court Reporting Transcript by Epiq 2

呂世杰資深大律師及阮文躍大律師代表市區重建局

何卓衡大律師代表置邦興業有限公司

劉思遠先生、張錦慧女士代表律政司

李曉亮先生、蕭雅怡女士、劉女士代表競爭事務委員會

林子衡律師、文國灝大律師代表合安管理有限公司

黎麗珊律師、梁采寧實習律師代表宏泰消防工程有限公司

關有禮大律師代表梁秉基先生

鍾浩怡律師、朱殷彤律師代表黃俠然先生

譚俊傑大律師及劉晉安大律師代表宏福苑居民

Evidential Hearing in relation to fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po

A Court Reporting Transcript by Epiq 3

1 以下內容乃聆訊數碼錄音謄本 2

3 10 時00 分聆訊恢復 4 10 時00 分孫靖乾資深大律師代表政府作開場陳詞 5

6 陸啟康法官:咁今日我哋想請呢個代表各個政府嘅資深大律師孫資深大律師,請你作出陳詞。 7 孫靖乾資深大律師:早晨,主席、兩位委員。今日我會代表政府進行口頭嘅開場陳詞。首先喺嗰 8 個時間方面咧,我亦都較早前同委員會嘅代表大律師交代咧,我喺大概需要1 小時30 9 分鐘,亦就是話可能去到我哋早上小休左右嘅時間。政府嘅口頭開場陳詞總共會分為五 10 個部分:第一部分,關於委員會嘅調查精神同埋方向;第二個部分,係就事發當日消防 11 處以及警務處嘅緊急應變同埋救援行動作出説明;第三部分,係關於宏福苑維修工程所 12 適用嘅制度框架;第四部分,係關於火災嘅成因;而第五部分係政府各部門已採取嘅即 13 時措施以及未來嘅改革方向。但當然,最終我哋都係要由委員會去喺報告中定奪。主 14 席、兩位委員,大埔宏福苑火災係奪去咗168 條生命,對多個大廈都造成嚴重嘅破壞。 15 政府完全係明白到呢個事件係對各不幸離世,或者是喪失自身嘅受災者及香港社會造成 16 巨大嘅衝擊,並喺度向各受災者同埋佢哋嘅家屬致以最深切嘅慰問。特首係宣佈成立獨 17 立委員會徹查呢件事件嘅開始以來,多次亦表明係要調查到底,無論涉及乜嘢人都係一 18 查到底、追責到底,認真改革。要等到真相係水落石出,令到公義可以得以伸張,讓逝 19 者安息,讓生者安身。事實上,政府係委員會工作啓動以來,一直係全力配合調查工 20 作,採取全面開誠佈公嘅態度,喺回答委員會嘅各項問題以及向委員會提交證據嘅時 21 候,無論情況或者證據係咪對政府嘅部門有利定係不利,皆毫無隱瞞。相信委員會各成 22 員都可以透過委員會代表資深大律師係首兩天嘅口頭開案陳詞裏面感受得到。政府一方 23 面係全力協助委員會去尋找真相,另一方面亦已經同步全速檢視現行機制同埋做法上需 24 要優化嘅地方,及時採取一啲嘅改善措施,或者因應需要作出更加深入嘅檢討同埋諮 25 詢。由此之中政府堅守兩大原則:一、主動性,所有政府部門都有責任主動去協助調 26 查,而唔係被動等待查詢;二、係全面坦誠去提供資料,只要調查範圍、係同調查範圍 27 相關必須如實提供。同時政府法律代表嘅角色並唔係為任何人士辯護,而係向委員會呈 28 現事件嘅全貌,協助委員會查清真相,並坦誠去面對制度上嘅不足同埋改革。因此,政 29 府亦都從來未迴避以下三點:一、有關制度存在不足之處;二、政府喺監督方面責無旁 30 貸;三、政府會推行系統性改革。我哋希望委員會同埋公眾理解,政府參與今次調查嘅 31 態度係真誠、積極、全力配合嘅。調查涉及嘅事實及背景錯綜複雜,好多細節係要等聽 32 證會嘅過程裏面進一步去澄清同埋釐清嘅,政府係整個聽證會過程裏邊會繼續全力配合 33

Evidential Hearing in relation to fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po

A Court Reporting Transcript by Epiq 4

委員會工作,相關證人亦都會就佢哋各自嘅範疇作出陳述同埋接受提問,務求向委員會 1 同公眾呈現事件嘅客觀全貌。與此同時,當然民事嘅法庭同埋刑事嘅法庭佢哋亦都會按 2 照佢哋嘅程序同埋適用嘅法律去發揮佢哋相應嘅職能。政府非常明白唔單止係受災者, 3 社會各界都非常之希望委員會嘅調查可以儘快有結果,傳媒同埋社會人士對研訊嘅內容 4 表達強烈關注係可以理解嘅。不過與此同時,調查同埋進行研訊嘅過程亦需要對所有嘅 5 涉事者係保持公道,委員會以及社會各界係呢個關鍵時刻更加需要保持客觀持平嘅態 6 度,認真審視各項嘅證據,嚴謹處理各涉事者嘅回應。政府希望社會各界可以有一啲耐 7 性,令到委員會可以喺公平、公正、公開嘅情況下客觀完成聽證程序,並且依據各相關 8 證據就宏福苑大火同其造成重大傷亡嘅各項成因作出判斷。嗱,相信各涉事方同埋在場 9 內場外嘅各位傳媒朋友都清楚聽到上星期五係研訊開始嘅最初嘅時候主席所講嘅一番説 10 話。委員會亦都留意到其代表大律師喺第一日嘅口頭開場陳詞透露咗唔少已經掌握到嘅 11 證據,但係有關陳詞迅即被誤解,成為委員會已經就各項事宜作出一啲嘅結論,事實並 12 非如此。而主席亦都提醒咗大家,而家研訊仲係處於開場陳詞嘅階段,尚未進入各涉事 13 人士作供對各項疑問作出回應嘅階段,委員會係要保持公平、公開同不偏不倚嘅態度去 14 完成佢嘅工作。委員會既要對受害者公平,亦需要對各涉事人士公平,所以大家唔應該 15 亦都唔好對大火責任誰屬問題過早作出結論。喺之後嘅陳詞,委員會嘅代表大律師亦都 16 表示佢係會緊記自然公義以及程序公義嘅相關原則,等到各個涉事人士係有充分嘅機 17 會、時間去作出解釋同埋回應。而佢喺有限時間內,喺開場陳詞所展示嘅證據,其目的 18 只係讓各涉事人士及早掌握需要作出回應嘅事宜,並唔係作出結論之意。政府對主席及 19 時嘅提醒以及委員會代表大律師嘅澄清表示認同同感謝。咁當然,喺上星期五,我亦都 20 喺主席作出提醒之後作出一個簡短嘅陳詞,提到今次嘅聽證會開始以嚟,傳媒以及社會 21 嘅某些人士就委員會代表大律師嘅陳詞作出咗廣泛嘅報道同埋討論,當中更對所展示嘅 22 部分證據作出非常深入嘅推斷以及分析,甚至已經就責任誰屬作出咗啲點名嘅明示或者 23 喺暗示嘅推論,令到公眾產生錯誤印象,以為委員會已經就有關事宜嘅因由、責任誰屬 24 定下咗結論、作出判斷,呢啲既非事實亦都唔恰當。更有甚者,有啲報道係具指明嘅指 25 控,亦都令到涉事政府人員及其家人遭受“起底”,我亦都係上星期曾經指出,會喺今 26 日嘅口頭開場陳詞裏邊,就委員會代表大律師口頭開場陳詞當中嘅一啲內容提出澄清, 27 以正視聽。但我亦都要強調,我嘅用意絕對唔係針對委員會嘅工作,而係有見現在似乎 28 已經出現嘅一啲錯誤嘅印象、觀感或者疑似嘅指控,作為政府嘅法律代表實在係有責 29 任、有必要,客觀及及早啲喺開場陳詞嘅階段,就一啲比較重大嘅事實偏差或者針對個 30 人較嚴重嘅疑似指控作出一啲需要嘅澄清。當然,我嘅口頭開場陳詞時間有限,實在冇 31 可能就每一個議題或者每一個疑似嘅指控都去作出回應,政府部門以及各涉事人士就相 32 關問題嘅回應更適合係留待喺證人作供嘅階段向委員會提出。更重要嘅係我期望喺作出 33 必須嘅回應之後,係可以令到日後嘅研訊得以喺委員會以及社會各界對有關事宜背景嘅 34

Evidential Hearing in relation to fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po

A Court Reporting Transcript by Epiq 5

一個正確理解下進行落去,開展審視證據嘅階段,避免一啲喺不必要或者似是而非嘅問 1 題上面再加糾纏。最後,當然係委員會成員具有廣泛嘅專業同埋知識、同埋經驗嘅情況 2 下,結合各方法律嘅團隊嘅陳詞,我哋相信委員會最終係可以就制度改革作出有深度同 3 有見地嘅建議,咁呢個就係第一個部分。第二部分,我會就事發當日消防處以及警務處 4 嘅緊急應變同埋救援行動作出一個簡要嘅説明。上星期,委員會嘅代表大律師亦有喺佢 5 嘅開場陳詞提及消防處同埋警務處係大火發生時候嘅部署,我認為政府有必要係親自向 6 委員會交代消防處同警務處嘅一哋嘅關鍵部署同安排,使到佢嘅理解更加全面同埋充 7 分。而委員會當然之後都可以聽取有關證人嘅證供,包括係消防處、警務處等等。時序 8 方面,2025 年11 月26 日下午2 點51 分,消防通信中心係接獲首個報警嘅電話,係報 9 稱宏昌樓外牆棚架起火,係度我想講嘅係,由於一啲預先已經知道嘅機制,一啲 10 (English Spoken)嘅機制。知道:第一,宏福苑係喺度進行緊維修工程,所以係有一 11 個預定製定嘅應急嘅計劃,額外調配咗一架主泵車,亦都係一架消防車啦同埋一輛輕型 12 嘅搶救車。同時亦都係因為預先亦都知道當時宏昌樓嘅消防喉轆、消防栓系統停用,亦 13 都額外係調派咗一架主泵車前往去支援。咁所以係一個預定嘅機制下邊其實喺增派咗支 14 援。當然,消防處亦都可以因應情況隨時係再增加其他嘅資源。然後去到第14:56 嘅 15 時間,即係2 點56 分,大埔消防站嘅液壓台係抵達現場,由高級消防站長擔任現場指 16 揮。而由於火勢嘅迅速蔓延,現場指揮官好快係喺幾分鐘之後,15:02 嘅時候將火警升 17 至三級。此後火勢進一步擴展至臨近嘅多座大廈,消防處喺到15:34 嘅時候再升到四 18 級火警,並喺18:22 嘅時候升至五級火警。而消防處喺今次嘅事故入邊應對規模實屬 19 係前所未見嘅,充分體現咗前線消防人員嘅專業精神同埋付出。而事實上消防處嘅超常 20 規、超常規嘅部署喺貫穿咗整個救援行動嘅始終。消防處處長早喺火警升至三級後不 21 久,即係大約係3 點20 分就指示啓動咗設於消防處總部大樓嘅一個處長指揮室,由助 22 理處長主持,負責監察火場嘅情況,確保資源適時去調配,並且提供一個協調、聯絡同 23 埋後勤嘅支援。而早喺火警升至四級嘅時候,亦即係話3 點34 分,消防處當時已經調 24 派喺咗一共48 輛嘅消防車、13 輛嘅救護車,合共係169 名消防人員到場,呢一個數字 25 已經其實相當於五級火警預定出動人數110 名嘅兩倍以上。到五級火警宣告,亦即係下 26 午6 點22 分嘅時候,消防處已經調配總共116 輛消防車以及55 輛的救護車,合共718 27 名消防員到場,相當於五級火警預定出動人數嘅6.5 倍。而到到晚上10 時30 分,累計 28 所調派嘅已經有174 輛消防車、47 輛救護車,合共989 名消防員,呢一個數字就相當於 29 五級火警預定嘅出動人數嘅9 倍。而消防處亦都採取咗一系列前所未見嘅特別嘅應對措 30 施。主席、兩位委員,今次滅火同埋搜救行動係面臨嘅挑戰極為嚴峻,而消防人員需要 31 喺種種困難下去奮力搶救。舉例而言:第一,當時宏福苑相關嘅大廈嘅走廊同埋樓梯空 32 間狹窄、煙霧瀰漫、温度極高,根據一啲熱成像嘅攝影機所錄得嘅温度,喺部分燃燒嘅 33 單位高達攝氏800 度,而部分走廊亦達攝氏400 度。消防員喺咁樣嘅情況之下只能夠由 34

Evidential Hearing in relation to fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po

A Court Reporting Transcript by Epiq 6

地面逐層向上推進進行滅火,同埋強行進入單位嘅搜救工作。其次,火勢相信係通過煙 1 囱效應沿大廈嘅凹入位置,亦即係委員會代表大律師所講嘅“光井”迅速由地下向上蔓 2 延,短時間內已經由低層係蔓延至到天台,並進一步擴展至臨近嘅其他嘅大廈。大量嘅 3 燃燒中的竹棚、碎片啦同埋雜物持續由高處墮下,而喺宏昌樓以及宏泰樓嘅出入口尤其 4 喺堆積,嚴重咁妨礙咗居民嘅疏散以及消防人員進入大廈。而兩名在周邊工作嘅消防員 5 亦都因為墮落物擊中而需要入院治療,事後所知當時傷亡最為嚴重嘅地方正正就喺呢兩 6 座大廈出入口被圍封嘅情況。而第三,由於火勢喺消防人員向上層推進嘅時候,較低層 7 嘅樓層去重新燃起,有可能去截斷消防人員嘅退路,所以消防人員亦都不得不喺唔同嘅 8 樓層之間反覆移動去滅火,以保安全。第四,由於宏福苑嘅消防喉轆同埋消防栓系統因 9 維修而停用,消防處因此亦都需要增派人手同埋協調水務處提升附近消防喉嘅水壓同埋 10 流量,並部署一啲嘅手提式嘅水泵,以確保高層滅火嘅水源供應。而就消防裝置停用通 11 知而言,消防處所收到嘅有關停用通知之後咧,亦都按程序採用咗、採取咗相應嘅加強 12 措施。但值得注意嘅係喺所有相關停用嘅通知表格,亦即係(English Spoken)裏邊咧 13 從來冇申報過火警嘅警報系統,即係(English Spoken),亦即係個警鐘都已經停用。 14 涉及到嗰個火警警報系統嘅嗰一欄全部都係空白,冇填上話停用嘅,咁有關嘅詳情亦都 15 會喺證人嘅作供階段進一步陳述。面對上述嘅種種挑戰,消防人員係仍然奮不顧身,堅 16 持執行搜救嘅任務。然而悲劇亦都不幸喺今次嘅火災中發生,正如委員會代表大律師喺 17 開場陳詞提及,消防員何偉豪喺宏泰樓上層執行搜救任務嘅時候不幸殉職,另有9 名消 18 防人員亦都因為熱衰竭、體力透支、呼吸困難、吸入濃煙,或者係被物件擊中而需要入 19 院治療。政府向犧牲嘅消防員及其家人致以最崇高嘅敬意,並向所有受傷嘅消防人員致 20 以慰問。政府亦都注意到,社會上就消防處喺今次嘅事故中嘅應對有一啲具體嘅關注, 21 包括無人機嘅使用啦、同內地消防當局嘅聯絡、協調,燃燒咗嘅棚架係咪應該拆卸處理 22 啊?以及緊急警示系統嘅啓動嘅問題等等。政府希望令到委員會同埋公眾知悉,消防處 23 喺佢哋嘅相關證人供詞裏面係就上述種種事宜嘅決策過程,以及其背後一啲嘅考量其實 24 都作出咗陳述,咁希望屆時亦都佢哋可以向委員會同埋公眾提供全面同埋充分嘅回應 25 嘅。主席、兩位委員,警務處喺今次嘅事故之中,佢哋嘅應對亦都係非常之迅速同全面 26 嘅,喺現場行動方面咧,當日警務處嘅衝鋒隊,即係EU,同埋警察機動部隊PTU 嘅人員 27 係喺下午嘅2 點59 分開始陸續抵達現場去處理交通管制、人流或者人羣管理,以及一 28 啲嘅疏散協助等等嘅工作。而當時新界北嘅最高指揮中心亦都喺3 點40 分啓動,去統 29 籌同埋協同各項嘅資源調配同各部門嘅聯絡工作,並同前線嘅指揮部保持緊密嘅溝通。 30 而助理處長、行動嘅助理處長喺5 點31 分宣佈事故為重大事故(English Spoken), 31 並且係指示咧啓動呢個傷亡查詢組,即係CEU。係傷亡調查同埋死者身份鑑定方面,警 32 務處嘅災難遇害者辨認組,亦即係DVIU,總共動員咗605 名嘅警務人員喺2025 年11 月 33 28 日展開工作。搜索嘅行動喺11 月29 日至12 月9 日進行,搜索對對7 座宏福苑受影 34

Evidential Hearing in relation to fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po

A Court Reporting Transcript by Epiq 7

響嘅大廈由地面至天台嘅所有單位公用地方進行搜索,整個行動去到2026 年1 月23 日 1 係結束。而喺傷亡查詢嘅方面,傷亡查詢中心熱線喺2025 年11 月26 日當天嘅6 點32 2 分係正式啓用,全天候運作,直至到2026 年1 月26 日。而CU 係總共係接收到489 份 3 失蹤人士嘅報告,當中166 名嘅失聯人士被確認係不幸罹難,37 名被確認受傷,184 名 4 被確認事後平安,其餘係因為一啲資料不足等原因係無法跟進。整個調查工作龐大而繁 5 複嘅任務都係有賴警務處等人員全力投入。接住落嚟,我會去到第三部分,委員會喺接 6 下嚟嘅聽證會係要有效咁去審視同埋處理多項嘅因素同埋多項嘅證據,政府認為呢個要 7 立足喺一個正確嘅認知基礎上邊,釐清相關監管機制同埋各項嘅要求。所以我第三部分 8 嘅陳詞係會就宏福苑維修工程所適用嘅制度框架去作出一個説明。宏福苑喺大火前進行 9 嘅工程係喺強制驗樓之後,按小型工程嘅監管制度係受呢個ICU 去監督。因此咧,委員 10 會亦都有必要去了解相關制度嘅原意啦、各項嘅審查制度,從而去衡量該制度或者喺執 11 行上面係咪有不足嘅地方,而準確去理解現行嘅制度咧,相信亦都係去討論如何去向前 12 去進行改革嘅一個前提。嗱,首先咧需要解釋嘅咧係強制驗樓計劃同小型工程監管制 13 度,佢哋其實係涉及兩套唔同嘅法律嘅制度嘅。當然,強制驗樓計劃之後如果係引申出 14 嚟嘅一啲嘅修葺工程好多都會係同樣涉及到小型工程、同樣係受到小型工程嘅制度所管 15 轄。具體嚟講,宏福苑嘅項目就係涵蓋兩個程序,第一個,就係頭先所講嘅強制驗樓計 16 劃,英文嘅簡稱係MBIS。簡單來講就好似對宏福苑進行一個所謂嘅“身體檢查”,睇下 17 宏福苑有冇一啲地方係需要進行修葺。其二咧,喺檢查後對需要修葺嘅項目去進行維 18 修,而住户亦都可以係進行唔屬於上述修葺工程嘅範圍其他嘅一啲自願嘅額外工程。一 19 般嚟講呢一類維修嘅工程嘅性質係比去重新起過一啲新嘅大樓係為簡單,因此通過屬於 20 建築物條例第41 條下面嘅小型工程,亦就係(English Spoken)嘅程序去進行。而以 21 上兩個程序,即係包括(English Spoken)同埋(English Spoken)咧,係宏福苑嘅 22 住户都係需要聘請專業人士進行呢個監察,政府亦都會同時進行監察,而有關嘅部門就 23 係頭先所講嘅ICU,亦就係獨立審查組。委員會代表大律師喺開場陳詞中亦都有簡略提 24 及到ICU 嘅背景,佢係喺2000 年11 月成立,係香港房屋委員會推行嘅其中一項房屋措 25 施,呢個ICU 或者係獨立審查組係參照建築物條例以及建築事務監督嘅政策同埋指引, 26 去監管房委會一啲新發展嘅工程。亦係2001 年2 月起咧,其實呢個獨立審查組就已經 27 去開始監管房委會嘅建築小組委員會,自從2000 年5 月以嚟核准嘅一啲新發展工程項 28 目。而且咧由2003 年嘅5 月開始咧,由房委會發展嘅一啲現存嘅樓宇,即係話已經起 29 好咗嘅樓宇,亦都一併納入樓宇嘅監管範圍以內。設立呢個審查組嘅原意係善用公共嘅 30 資源,由於屋宇署即係(English Spoken)佢本身係沒有參與公營房屋嘅興建同埋管 31 理,因此由一啲對公營房屋標準同埋樓宇狀況較為熟悉嘅機構,例如房委會底下設立嘅 32 一個獨立審查組ICU,承擔相關嘅監管職能,係希望更有效去為公眾服務嘅。而由於宏 33 福苑係居屋,其部分單位亦都係私人嘅市場轉售,因此咧法律上宏福苑嘅住宅單位已經 34

Evidential Hearing in relation to fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po

A Court Reporting Transcript by Epiq 8

納入咗建築物條例嘅規管範圍。而喺執法層面方面,建築事務監督係委派咗呢個ICU 而 1 唔係屋宇署本身,係去負責相關嘅監管工作。因此咧喺宏福苑監管嘅問題上,ICU 咧係 2 仍然具有責任嘅。而佢嘅職責係包括監督小型工程啦,處理小型工程提交嘅文件,視察 3 建築工程等等。與此同時咧,屋宇署係仍然負責根據建築物條例係會提起檢控,即係話 4 檢控嘅工作會由屋宇署繼續負責,以及對一啲嘅註冊專業人士進行規管,兩個部門係有 5 一個不同職責嘅分工。背景上,喺2014 年嘅時候宏福苑係被選定為強制驗樓計劃下嘅 6 目標樓宇之一,而獨立審查組亦都喺2014 年嘅4 月29 日咧係向宏福苑嘅業主立案法團 7 發出一個MBIS,即係強制驗樓計劃嘅預先通知函件。並且喺2016 年的6 月10 號,根據 8 建築物條例第30B(3)條係正式發出要進行呢一個訂明嘅檢驗,同埋訂明嘅修葺嘅法定 9 通知,亦即係話呢個係一個強制要求。而MBIS 嘅適用範圍係會包括一啲樓齡係達到30 10 年或者以上嘅私人樓宇,除非咧相關嘅住宅樓宇係唔超過三層高。而實際嘅操作層面來 11 講,正如我頭先所講啦,係MBIS 下邊進行嘅大部分嘅修葺嘅工程咧係有別於其他新建 12 或者一啲結構性嘅大型工程嘅,性質上係較為簡單,屬於建築物條例第41 條下邊嘅小型 13 工程啦,或者係一啲獲豁免嘅建築工程,即係一啲(English Spoken)嘅工程。而法例 14 嘅原意係提供一個相對簡便嘅機制,等到市民可以進行一啲性質上較為簡單嘅工程,因 15 此喺呢個機制下面開展工程之前係唔需要、唔需要事先獲得事務監督,亦即係屋宇署嘅 16 批准圖則,亦都唔須喺開展工程之前獲得署方嘅同意。換句話嚟講,其他一啲可能新建 17 嘅樓宇,佢哋係需要首先入則,同埋得到屋宇署對嗰個相關圖則或者是相關工序係同意 18 先至可以展開嘅。有關小型工程嘅問題,喺委員會代表大律師嘅開場陳詞亦都有涉及, 19 我哋都睇到傳媒係對宏福苑維修工程涉及嘅小型工程有一個廣泛嘅報道。其實,呢個小 20 型工程嘅監管制度英文叫做(English Spoken),或者我哋簡稱叫做MWCS,係喺2010 21 年嘅年底,12 月31 號係全面實施嘅。佢嘅背景咧就係因為係修訂嗰個建築物條例之 22 前,無論你係講緊一個最大型嘅建築工程,又或者係一啲家居小型嘅,例如喺外牆安裝 23 晾衫架等等咧,都係同樣地係要遵守同一套嚴格嘅規管程序,包括事先獲得屋宇署批准 24 圖則同埋同意,以及聘用認可人士即係(English Spoken)去監督工程。可以想像喺咁 25 嘅情況下,實際上有好多人因為可能嗰個、呢個咁樣嘅程序嘅費用啦,又或者係個時間 26 等等咧,佢哋係沒有遵從法例係去預先入則申請批准。所以,當時係考慮有咁多咁樣嘅 27 人嘅唔遵從法例啦,以及有關嘅規管方式對一啲規模較小、安全風險較低嘅工程而言係 28 過於嚴苛,喺執行上同埋監管性存在困難,亦都係間接造成大量嘅違例建築物嘅情況, 29 所以係引用咗呢個咁樣嘅小型工程嘅監管制度,希望去改善好多時係有法不依嘅情況。 30 而喺MWCS 下邊,小型工程雖然係有別於大型嘅工程,仍然係會按照佢哋嘅工程性質係 31 分做三個級別,咁呢啲喺委員會代表大律師亦都有解釋過。分別係第一個級別,就係話 32 喺小型工程裏面較為複雜嘅,例如喺兩層樓梯之間我哋加建一個室內嘅樓梯,呢個就係 33 其中一個例子。第二個級別就係一啲複雜程度同安全風險較低嘅小型工程,例如去修葺 34

Evidential Hearing in relation to fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po

A Court Reporting Transcript by Epiq 9

一啲非承重嘅外牆。第三個級別就會係一般家居嘅小型工程,譬如安裝一啲冷氣機支 1 架、晾衫架等等。喺度有一點係值得特別説明嘅咧,就係根據現有嘅機制、當時嘅機制 2 哈,小型工程嘅界定係按照嗰個工程本身嘅性質,譬如你做呢個工序,你要去起嗰個樓 3 梯或者晾衫架,而呢個工地嘅性質而唔係工程嘅本身嗰個數量啦、規模啦,或者涉及嘅 4 大廈嘅數目去作出釐訂,當時嘅制度係咁樣。如果工程嘅性質係相對簡單,加上專業人 5 士嘅監管,法例嘅原意哈係相信機制喺可以足夠保障公眾安全。因此雖然喺宏福苑佢哋 6 牽涉嘅維修大廈數目相對係多,但係相比起新建大廈需要嘅複雜技術同埋工序,性質 7 上、性質上係仍然相對簡單,所以係屬、仍然係屬於小型工程嘅範圍。而呢個小型工程 8 MWCS 嘅主要特點係可以歸納做四樣嘢、四個:第一就係我頭先所講,佢會用一個簡化嘅 9 法定程序,業主唔需要事先獲得屋宇署嘅批准圖則同埋書面同意,可以按照簡化嘅規定 10 去展開有關嘅工程,呢個制度嘅設計係為咗方便業主減輕一啲合規嘅成本,亦都係符合 11 當時立法會委員同埋社會各各界嘅廣泛共識;第二,小型工程監管嘅制度咧,本身係一 12 個因應小型工程佢嗰個風險而較側重於業界嘅自律,更多去依賴一啲建築專業人士,包 13 括我哋所講嘅訂明嘅建築專業人士,亦就係叫做(English Spoken),訂明嘅註冊承建 14 商,亦即係一啲嘅(English Spoken)嘅專業監管同埋監督,從而亦都係減免政府嘅直 15 接介入,包括政府各部門對工程去作出審批又或者一啲實地檢測嘅要求,呢個係制度設 16 計上嘅核心取向。第三,為咗確保建築專業人士嘅監督嘅質量,無論係喺呢一個嘅小型 17 工程(English Spoken)即係MWCS 或者強制驗樓MBIS 嘅兩個制度嘅下邊咧,都有就相 18 關嘅專業人士係設立一個註冊嘅制度。如果有關人員係未能夠盡責咧,係可以被檢控 19 啦,又或者係作出紀律處分嘅。第四咧,自從呢個小型工程嘅制度實施以嚟咧,其實小 20 型工程每年嘅提交量已經由若3.5 萬宗係增加到大約係15 萬宗,呢個亦都係表明咗呢 21 個小型工程嘅制度自從推行以嚟咧,整體上獲得業界接受,實務上係具有參考嘅價值。 22 我哋認為委員會進一步去查究有關專業人士以及相關部門嘅責任同埋工作嘅時候咧,係 23 必須要以呢個背景作為一個嘅、起碼一個出發點(English Spoken)。而宏福苑喺大火 24 之前佢哋進行緊嘅各項工程,當時嚟講佢哋嘅最高風險其實係都只屬小型嘅工程,而小 25 型工程監管制度本身正如我頭先所講咧,佢嘅設計就係因應工程風險較側重業界承擔責 26 任、履行自律,減免政府各部門對工程作出審批同埋實地檢測嘅要求嘅一個制度。當 27 然,委員會或者可以提出疑問,有關嘅監管制度喺進行大型嘅修葺工程嘅情況之下,係 28 咪有需要加強檢視工程各範圍嘅安全性咧?嗱,當然,呢個我哋係完全理解,但係為咗 29 理解呢個制度性問題所在咧,我哋當然亦都需要去首先了解現行制度嘅歷史背景同埋演 30 變,呢個係我頭先所作出説明嘅一個原因。而就宏福苑大火一事而言,呢一個監管制度 31 的確係屬於當時嘅事實背景同埋制度安排,有佢本身嘅內在嘅邏輯,而就ICU 人員對監 32 管制度嘅更多理解同埋執行監管嘅細節,委員會係可以透過佢哋嘅口頭證供係作出更加 33 深入嘅理解嘅。同時,政府其實亦都已經着手去考慮改革現行嘅制度,方向如下:日後 34

Evidential Hearing in relation to fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po

A Court Reporting Transcript by Epiq 10

咧,作為第一級別嘅小型工程咧,除咗係一啲訂明嘅註冊承建商之外,即係除咗由一個 1 註冊嘅承建商去進行之外咧,進行該工程亦都需要委任獨立於嗰個訂明註冊嘅承建商嘅 2 一個第三方嘅訂明建築專業人士向屋宇署或者ICU 提交一個訂明嘅圖則,即係我哋會要 3 求有一個第三方嘅獨立嘅建築專業人士係去交嗰個圖則,以涵蓋更加詳細嘅安全嘅預防 4 措施以及一啲嘅監督計劃,亦即係(English Spoken),去列明現場監督人員嘅配置、 5 安排。而屋宇署亦都會根據所提交嘅訂明圖則同埋係監督計劃去加強審核、抽查同埋執 6 法嘅行動。咁當然,我哋亦都會期望委員會就以上去進行審視同埋提出相關嘅建議。此 7 外咧,我亦都要喺度係就委員會代表大律師嘅開場陳詞提到關於ICU 進行工地審查嘅一 8 啲嘅情況去進行一啲澄清。其中一個就係關於嗰個百分比,我相信委員會都會記得,上 9 星期委員會嘅代表大律師係有比較過,就係話係屋宇署一個20%同埋ICU 一個0.1%嗰個 10 百分比嘅比較。嗱,咁喺談及呢個澄清嘅內容之前,可能我要對相關嘅背景係作出一啲 11 解釋先。喺MWCS 即係小型工程制度之下頭先講過有三個級別,裏面只有一個、第一個 12 級別喺當時嘅制度下係要求訂明建築專業人士啦,又或者一哋訂明嘅註冊承建商去製備 13 同埋簽署相關嘅圖則。而有關嘅工程嘅程序以及佢哋嘅用料係唔需要經過監管部門嘅審 14 核,而喺相關嘅時間咧監管部門係只會喺展開工程嘅時候就會抽樣進行一啲嘅文件審 15 查,以及喺完工之後,亦都係喺同樣嘅抽樣機制下邊去進行一個實地嘅審查。而針對呢 16 啲唔同嘅巡查嘅機制,屋宇署同埋ICU 嘅證人會向委員會作出進一步嘅介紹。為咗方便 17 起見,我哋可以好簡單咁去解釋,有三類嘅:第一類,就係文件審查,亦都係佢哋叫做 18 (English Spoken),咁就係簡稱做AFC,呢個AFC 就唔牽涉一啲實地嘅檢測,而ICU 19 喺2025 年就總共係進行咗1176 宗嘅文件嘅審查AFC,比例就大約係4.3%嘅。第二類, 20 係一啲完工之後,即係完成咗嗰工程之後嘅一個視察,佢哋叫做(English Spoken)或 21 者叫做SAC,呢個就係工程完成咗之後就會做一個實地檢測,而佢嗰個目的咧或者嗰個 22 目標咧,就係去睇下佢哋做嗰個修葺工程係咪真係符合佢哋喺小型工程深部裏邊所列進 23 行嘅嗰個修葺嘅工程。而當時喺2025 年,ICU 進行咗224 宗嘅SAC,呢個比例係大約 24 0.8%。第三類就係所謂嘅施工前嘅視察,佢哋叫做PSAC,呢個咧就喺工程開始之前就係 25 進行,亦即係話佢係未展開工程之前,每年就係應該有25 宗嘅,咁係佔小型工程提交總 26 數嘅大約0.1%,而目的咧其實係去確保相關嘅承建商佢哋冇偷步去開工,因為佢哋通常 27 要係畀咗嗰個相關嘅(English Spoken)或者文件之後嘅7 天后去開工。所以呢個亦都 28 係委員會代表大律師提及到嘅0.1%,其實係針對有冇偷步開工嘅情況所作嘅一個抽查嘅 29 視察。咁另一方面咧,針對一啲可能係抽中咗進行文件審查,亦即係頭先講嘅呢個 30 AFC,亦都提交咗一個施工嘅監督計劃(English Spoken)嘅第一級別嘅小型工程裏 31 面,喺呢個範圍裏面,其實屋宇署咧係會再抽出係不少於20%,20%係喺施工期間作出安 32 全檢查。所以呢個20%咧,其實講緊嘅係喺做呢個AFC 亦都有一個施工監督計劃,即係 33 可能係喺嗰幾個percent 裏邊再去抽20%,咁變成嗰個百分比係可能會再細一啲啦。所 34

Evidential Hearing in relation to fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po

A Court Reporting Transcript by Epiq 11

以咧喺上星期委員會代表大律師提到咧,話ICU 嘅施工前視察數目係25 宗,佔小型工 1 程嘅總提交數目係0.1%,而將呢個同上述嘅20%,即係屋宇署嗰個所謂20%嘅工地視察 2 目標係相比較咧,呢個係唔係好適合嘅。因為呢度其實係涉及兩種唔同性質嘅視察,唔 3 能夠混為一談。而實際上咧根據ICU 嘅供詞所講咧,如果我哋睇番屋宇署嘅數字,佢哋 4 每年進行嘅嗰個PSAC,即係話施工前睇下有冇偷步嘅嗰個檢測、嗰個視察咧,其實佢哋 5 都定喺大約100 宗。相比起屋宇署所有小型工程嘅數字來講,同樣都佔大約0.1%,所以 6 呢個ICU 嘅比例如果係就一啲偷步嘅視察咧其實同屋宇署嘅標準係相符合嘅。啊而頭先 7 我講過,有關20%嗰個數字係針對一啲已經抽中咗做文件審查,同埋提交咗一啲施工監 8 督計劃裏邊嘅第一級別嘅小型工程裏面嘅20%。所以ICU 喺管理同埋監督佢哋嘅轄下樓 9 宇嘅工作工作上邊,基本上遵循咗屋宇署所定嘅相關指引同埋行常制度同埋做法,包括 10 小型工程監督制度下面嘅一啲嘅巡查機制。喺相關嘅時間咧,根據當時ICU 嘅機制咧, 11 鑑於宏福苑維修工程所涉及嘅小型工程嘅性質,ICU 當時按照嗰制度咧都係唔須,亦都 12 的確沒有喺宏福苑嘅工程期間,即係進行嘅期間去主動行常咁去做一啲工地嘅視察。咁 13 監督部門咧,主要係針對第一,係喺做工程之前所呈交嘅文件會抽樣做一個文件審查, 14 以及完成咗工序之後呈交嘅文件都會有部分嘅工程抽出嚟作一個實地視察。換言之當時 15 制度下邊嘅施工期間嘅視察工作主要係限於回應居民嘅投訴。嗱,當然,政府係歡迎委 16 員會檢視現行嘅制度並作出適當嘅改革,但必須説明就係,呢個亦都係因為當時小型工 17 程嘅背景,佢嗰個目標所引致嘅一個制度下面嘅情況。當然,委員會亦都有可能係就各 18 項審查下面嘅抽樣比率啦,或者實際檢測嘅各項數字係咪足夠作出一啲提問,委員會亦 19 都可以以一個開放同埋持平嘅態度去考慮相關嘅證據,從而評估無論係ICU 又好,屋宇 20 署又好,佢哋嘅抽樣嘅比率啦,係咪同屋宇署嗰個都係一致或者係有一個嘅進一步檢視 21 嘅空間。頭先我用咗一啲時間就係去釐清宏福苑工程所涉及嘅監管制度,包括喺強制驗 22 樓同埋小型工程,以及當中小型工程中唔同嘅審查制度。事實上ICU 亦都係按相關時 23 間,佢哋所理解嘅小型工程嘅監管制度下面嘅要求咧,係對宏福苑嘅工程進行監督。而 24 其他嘅政府部門,包括譬如勞工署啊、消防處等等,亦都按佢哋嘅個別職權範圍監督佢 25 哋所管轄嘅議題。當然,無論喺香港以至喺世界各地,亦都無論喺政府部門之間又好, 26 又或者政府同其他持份者之間都好,其實亦都會存在某個程度上分工嘅。問題本身唔應 27 該係需唔需要或者係應唔應該有分工,而係點樣令到呢個分工咧係做得更好、更全面, 28 相信呢個都係委員會會去探討嘅角度。接住落嚟,第四個部分我會想講講關於嗰個宏福 29 苑火災嗰個嘅成因,當然,呢個係要有待委員會去審視一啲嘅事實啦,或者係專家嘅證 30 供,然之後再去作出一個查究同埋結論。嗱,現階段咧我哋可以話縱觀是次嘅大火,佢 31 起火、蔓延同埋造成嘅重大傷亡,委員會可能係需要釐清大火嘅直接成因,即係一啲 32 (English Spoken)嘅直接成因,以及一啲可能係制度啊或者監管上面嘅成因,即係有 33 兩個方面、兩個唔同嘅範疇。正如主席喺上星期五,喺委員會大律師進行開場陳詞嘅期 34

Evidential Hearing in relation to fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po

A Court Reporting Transcript by Epiq 12

間亦都有提及,根據謄本有咁樣講,話主席係睇到一啲嘅文件,其實BD 即係屋宇署,或 1 者ICU 即係獨立審查組,佢哋都強調咗好多嘢,我哋香港嘅而家嘅機制都係靠嗰個承建 2 商本身去執行佢嘅責任。當然,機制講求嘅業界人士承擔責任、履行自律,自動去了解 3 同埋遵守相關具體又或者一啲較為籠統嘅法律法規,以及設立工程嘅監督制度、配合監 4 管部門不時進行審查等等,都不表示政府各相關嘅監管部門可以放任不理。不過,喺今 5 次嘅事件中,我哋亦都係要指出,委員會亦應該考慮係咪會存在有啲人為咗節省成本, 6 逃避規管,甚至刻意採取一啲客觀上屬於瞞騙嘅手段,以圖矇混過關,以致有關部門嘅 7 監管成效降低嘅情況。亦根據上星期委員會嘅代表大律師嘅開場陳詞嘅內容,以及其展 8 示嘅一啲證據,今次大火起火蔓延同造成重大傷亡嘅成因有可能、有可能涉及業界啦, 9 涵蓋專業嘅、註冊嘅專業人士,以至係地盤工人嘅種種行為。包括譬如工地嘅違規食煙 10 啊、施工期間忽視一啲建築嘅程序以及物料安全,並且喺監管部門作出巡查或者測試嘅 11 時候意圖瞞騙有關人員,註冊嘅消防裝置承辦商喺監督消防裝置關閉嘅問題上失責,或 12 者監督工程嘅RI,即係話呢個註冊嘅檢驗人員佢哋係掛名啊,甚至淪為一啲橡皮圖章, 13 以至有關人士造假圍標等等嘅不法行為嘅可能性。當然,相關嘅證據會要留待聽證會證 14 人作供時候進一步去呈現。而政府亦都一直強調,今次大火我哋係需要嚴肅去處理,有 15 關部門未能夠喺今次大火發生之前把握一啲唔同嘅機會,去察覺以上嘅問題,反映咗佢 16 哋嘅監督制度係存在一定嘅漏洞同埋法規執行嘅不力,特別喺投訴機制顯著不足。而喺 17 2023 至到2025 年期間,本港亦都有發生過多場涉及棚網起火嘅火警,有關嘅火險隱患 18 理應早被察覺,各相關部門亦都應該引以為戒同埋及早防範。以上嘅種種情況或者係可 19 以透過各監管部門完善佢哋嘅監管制度,例如係釐清一啲施工程序啦,或者一啲嘅物料 20 要求,又或者去加強一啲嘅執法力度,同埋去進行跨部門聯合處理投訴同埋巡查,以致 21 各項風險能夠去得到全面嘅考慮等等嘅措施去、儘可能去避免嘅。縱使未能去完全破滅 22 火險嘅隱患,相信亦都可以有效減輕災情。政府對完善監管機制實屬責無旁貸,亦都必 23 須引以為戒,以防止悲劇重演。當然,政府部門喺制度監管上係咪有缺失吖等等,都係 24 有待委員會透過審視各項證據同埋聽取證人供詞之後作出全面嘅查究。而另一方面咧, 25 正如我頭先所講咧,委員會代表大律師喺佢嘅開場陳詞裏面亦都就各項嘅議題咧係展示 26 咗一部分嘅證據。佢嘅原意係希望令到各涉事人士及早去早我佢哋需要作出回應嘅一啲 27 事宜,不過好遺憾咧係畀一啲人誤解咗,以為委員會已經就有關議題落咗一啲嘅結論, 28 作出過一個判斷。頭先亦都講到,有一啲媒體加以非常深入嘅分析,指名道姓去指指控 29 個別嘅政府人員,甚至導致佢哋或者佢哋嘅家人被起底或者威嚇。係呢度我再次重申, 30 委員會尚未就任何議題定下任何嘅結論,作出任何嘅判斷,而證人亦都尚未作供,未就 31 委員會提出嘅各項事宜或者問題喺聽證會里邊做出解釋同埋回應。而現時嘅情況彷彿已 32 經喺公眾層面營造一種責任已經被確定嘅觀感,因此政府亦都有必要針對委員會代表大 33 律師開場陳詞裏面較為嚴重嘅疑似嘅指控作出一啲澄清,以免被人一個委員會係未審先 34

Evidential Hearing in relation to fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po

A Court Reporting Transcript by Epiq 13

判嘅錯誤的觀感。咁喺度,我唔會有可能就所有方面都會作出澄清,但我可能會就其中 1 比較主要嘅三個方面係有一個澄清嘅。第一個係就委員會代表大律師喺上星期四,第一 2 日開場陳詞裏面提到,ICU 人員喺收到嗰個投訴之後,係到工地進行檢測,係事先透過 3 呢個WhatsApp 聯絡RI,亦即係註冊嘅檢驗人員去商討檢測嘅日期同埋時間。政府注意 4 到委員會代表大律師就呢個ICU 係咪應該喺收到投訴之後作出一個突擊嘅巡查啦,係以 5 防不法分子提前作出準備意圖瞞騙政府人員,呢一個方面提出過一個質疑。尤其喺委員 6 會嘅大律師就有關議題展示咗一系列嘅信息嘅記錄,即係頭先我講嘅WhatsApp 記錄, 7 包括相關嘅ICU 人員預約時間嘅對話記錄。咁有關人員就隨即喺唔同嘅傳媒報道評論裏 8 面被描繪成為“打龍通啊,通風報信啊”等等呢啲涉及串通、串謀造假嘅字眼,呢啲我 9 哋認為係一個毫無客觀根據,同埋嚴重偏離事實嘅指控。就ICU 作出預約嘅原因,主要 10 係因為ICU 人員係需要呢個RI,亦即係呢個註冊檢驗人員,喺法律上佢哋要負責監督 11 嘅,註冊檢驗人員。佢哋嘅代表在場去協助進行採樣,以進行一個測試,而按ICU 現時 12 嘅理解,屋宇署同樣都可能會因為需要做一個需要採樣,去同呢個RI,呢個註冊檢驗人 13 員或者註冊承建商進行一個預約。而RI 佢哋委派嘅代表喺檢測時在場咧,令到佢哋可以 14 就任何嘅問題係作出即時嘅回應,亦都可以令到ICU 嘅人員去判斷係咪需要去即時作出 15 一啲跟進,去睇下嗰個投訴係咪成立。而且ICU 嘅人員同埋呢啲RI 註冊檢驗人員去溝 16 通嘅時候,實際上佢哋嗰個信息嘅溝通同實際現場視察嘅時間只係相差一日,所以咧, 17 其實佢哋亦都係儘量將嗰個時間亦都係壓縮咗,係有呢個考慮喺度。無論如何,我哋政 18 府亦都希望委員會同各界人士保持一個持平嘅態度,關乎委員會代表大律師佢哋已經展 19 示咗,又或者尚未展示嘅其他證據咧,從而去考慮係咪真係有客觀嘅基礎去針對有關嘅 20 人員作出上述一啲咁嚴重嘅指控,更多嘅細節亦都會喺證人作供嘅階段係去呈現。第二 21 個喺委員會代表大律師咧第一日嘅開場陳詞中亦都有提到,ICU 嘅人員喺20…喺2024 22 年11 月18 號嘅現場視察係、只係選取比較方便觸及嘅位置去採樣一個棚網嘅樣本,係 23 令到RI,即係話呢個註冊檢驗人員,或者RC 即係註冊嘅承建商較多機會去幹預嗰個測 24 試結果。咁呢度首先客觀地嚟講咧,委員會應該考慮到就呢個是次嘅現場視察,ICU 人 25 員當日只係喺上午作出過通知,而佢哋下午已經到達現場,相關人士包括呢個RI 同RC 26 啦,實際上係咪有足夠時間可以做到所謂的“做手腳”嘅行為?呢個係其中考慮。其 27 次,即使ICU 嘅證據有指出採樣工程係喺大廈嘅底層或者頂層去進行,位置上或許係較 28 為方便去觸及,但係個棚網嘅範圍亦都係大嘅,再加上極少嘅準備時間,同樣喇,委員 29 會亦都可以考慮RI 同埋RC 係咪可以預計ICU 會喺邊一個位置去採樣?以及在咁短時間 30 內大幅咁購入同埋置換合規嘅棚網嘅合規可能性等等,當然,呢啲嘅細節都會喺證人作 31 供階段係呈現。第三,就委員會代表大律師喺第二日嘅開場陳詞例如面亦都有提到咧, 32 ICU 係有透過1823,即係一個電話收到嘅投訴,佢係涉及使用發泡膠板去遮蓋嗰個宏福 33 苑嘅窗户,喺用電郵去作出回應嘅時候咧,就係話未經進行任何測試核實發泡膠板嘅可 34

Evidential Hearing in relation to fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po

A Court Reporting Transcript by Epiq 14

燃性下表示,得知承建商正在使用具阻燃標準發泡膠作為窗户嘅臨時保護。嗱,當然有 1 關嘅事情會喺證人作供時候會更詳細去探討啦,但係我哋而家留意到咧,就係呢一個講 2 法嘅就有可能被誤解,係認為有關人員係沒有認真核實發泡膠板阻燃性能投訴下,就投 3 訴作出一個馬虎嘅回應。咁希望政府,希望呢個委員會係喺考慮相關嘅指控嘅時候,屆 4 時亦都會考慮相關政府人員已經提交咗嘅證人供詞,以及證人其後喺聽證會佢哋所作嘅 5 證供。例如作為一個例子咧,事實上ICU 所提供嘅證詞亦都顯示,其實佢哋喺2024 年 6 10 月28 日咧,其實係因應就使用呢個易燃發泡膠板嘅投訴,係有去宏福苑作出一個現 7 場嘅視察。當時咧ICU 嘅人員雖然係有提到使用發泡膠板係冇一個特別,即係一個 8 (English Spoken)嘅阻燃標準嘅理解。但係亦都有同時係指出咧,發泡膠板係可能帶 9 嚟一個火險嘅。並且咧係有就承建商係咪會採用一個阻燃性嘅發泡膠板啊?同埋係會分 10 開可能幾層幾層咁樣去做呢個工程而去更換嗰個發泡膠板咧係作出一些查詢跟進嘅。而 11 當時RI 委派嘅代表亦都表示佢哋會使用一啲非易燃嘅發泡膠板會遮蓋窗户以作保護,同 12 埋就會幾層幾層咁樣去做。咁加上當時喺10 月28 號嘅巡查嘅時候咧,或者視察嘅時 13 候,其實嗰啲相關嘅發泡膠板仍然尚未貼喺窗户上面嘅,當時係未貼上去。所以喺ICU 14 嘅人員嘅角度嚟講,當時係無從透過該次嘅現場視察,得悉其後承建商或者RC 係會廣泛 15 同埋長時間使用發泡膠板去覆蓋窗户,亦因此冇即時採取更多嘅跟進嘅行動。例如…因 16 此如果喺考慮到ICU 人員喺11 月12 日就投訴所作出嘅回應咧,委員會係應該考慮呢個 17 係咪反、只係反映出ICU 當時係只係對發泡膠板係冇特別阻燃標準嘅理解,同埋去複述 18 番佢所收到嘅一個回覆,即係由承建商裏邊收到嘅回覆。但無論如何更多嘅細節,包括 19 ICU 所作出嘅其他嘅跟進工作就會喺證人作供階段係會呈現嘅。以上係政府對幾個較廣 20 泛被可能誤解啦,或者係扭曲成疑嘅一啲嘅疑似嘅指控,甚至作出結論嘅一啲初步回 21 應。我哋會喺其後就委員會同埋公眾關心嘅其他問題,包括譬如第一,ICU 係現場進行 22 棚網阻燃性嘅情況同埋考慮啦;第二,ICU 就有關小型工程申報文件中可以見到一啲涉 23 及使用生口嘅照片嘅理解同埋考慮啦;以至第三,勞工署人員喺進行現場視察後就棚網 24 阻燃性作出嘅書面回覆等等嘅議題,呢啲的確值得更深入嘅探討,以揭示當中可能存在 25 嘅一啲制度啊或者喺監管嘅問題。不過都相信委員會喺會保持耐性,亦都希望公眾人士 26 係保持耐性,避免過早去作出一啲嘅猜度,等到各涉事方全面呈現相關證據同充分作出 27 解釋之後先至作出判斷嘅。咁同時咧,關於嗰個火災嘅成因咧,我哋都想提及咧,政府 28 亦都係想籍呢個機會向委員會介紹政府嘅專家證人,亦都係香港城市大學建築同埋土木 29 工程學系建築工程講座教授袁國傑教授,袁教授嘅專業背景深厚,同埋係國際學術界享 30 有卓越嘅聲譽。佢嘅研究領域亦都係涵蓋消防嘅安全同埋工程燃燒學,以至係電腦流體 31 力學嘅模擬等等,同今次調查嘅核心議題喺高度切合嘅。而袁教授咧係會就佢專業範圍 32 內嘅相關事宜會向委員會提交書面報告啦,同埋按委員會嘅需要同埋要求咧去出席呢個 33 聽證會。袁教授履行佢嘅職責嘅原則係會以一個獨立、客觀嘅態度協助委員會,就佢專 34

Evidential Hearing in relation to fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po

A Court Reporting Transcript by Epiq 15

業範疇裏面嘅事宜咧係提供一個公正嘅意見。另外,就政府嘅跨部門調查工作而言咧, 1 其實政府早喺2025 年嘅11 月28 日,亦即係話大火發生之後嘅兩天就成立咗一個由消 2 防處去牽頭嘅跨部門嘅調查專組,成員係有包括嚟自警務處啦、屋宇署啦、機電工程署 3 啦,房屋局下轄嘅獨立審查組啦,勞工署、政府化驗所嘅人員以及消防工程嘅專業人 4 士。跨部門嘅調查專組係喺今年嘅2 月份就發表咗佢哋嘅一箇中期嘅調查報告,就火災 5 嘅成因啊、蔓延嘅方式提出咗一個初步嘅結論。嗱,雖然我哋冇辦法去重現事發當日嘅 6 場景,但呢個專組嘅人員佢哋都已經竭力,透過好多方式去模擬同埋去還原番當時嘅情 7 況,以求咧儘可能去接近番嗰個事實嘅真相。而且佢哋係用咗好多唔同嘅方法,包括用 8 咗一個譬如話超大型嘅錐形量熱儀去對涉案建築物嘅材料、唔同嘅材料去進行一啲嘅測 9 試,以評估嗰啲嘅物料佢哋嘅燃燒特性,以及對火勢蔓延嘅影響,呢個相信亦都係調查 10 工作其中嘅一個重要一環。而中期報告亦都有就個棚架嘅嗰個搭建方式咧係作出嘅分析 11 嘅,初步係睇得到棚架嘅結構,佢哋嘅佈局咧係加劇咗所謂嘅煙囱效應嘅形成,火勢亦 12 都直指沿番嗰個大廈凹入嘅嗰個光井嘅位置咧係迅速咁樣向上喘升,喺短時間內由低層 13 蔓延至天台,並擴展至其他臨近大廈,造成難以節制嘅一個效果。跨部門嘅調查專組會 14 繼續就事故詳情繼續展開深入調查,包括了進行一啲火災嘅分析,同埋電腦流體力學嘅 15 模擬測試,佢哋會喺最終嘅報告提供詳細分析,而呢個最終報告暫定會喺今年嘅5 月份 16 完成,屆時亦都會盡快去提交畀委員會嘅。跟住我會去到政府嘅陳詞嘅第五部分,係關 17 於政府已經採取嘅即時嘅措施以及未來嘅改革方向。政府明白到大火嘅災難係揭示咗現 18 行制度係存有不足之處。正如我剛才已經重申,政府對完善監管機制實屬責無旁貸,必 19 須引以為戒,以防止悲劇重演。政府亦都已經係積極採取咗行動,分別喺從即時嘅應對 20 啦,以及中長期制度改革兩個層面去回應所揭示嘅問題,亦即係話其實就算喺今次呢個 21 獨立委員會未作出報告之前,我哋都會爭分奪秒儘快係可以去改善嘅地方,都會首先提 22 出去改善。即時措施方面咧,消防處喺2025 年12 月份已經設立咗一個專責嘅快速應變 23 小隊,喺以全天候嘅形式去運作嘅。佢哋會出動應對所有嘅樓宇火警啦,檢視一啲嘅消 24 防裝置,即是所謂嘅FSI 嘅運作嘅情況,並且喺有需要嘅時候係會即時採取執法嘅行 25 動。消防處亦都有即時調配資源成立一個專責隊伍,重點咁樣去巡查正正喺度進行緊大 26 型維修工程嘅樓宇。而自從2026 年,即係今年嘅1 月開始咧,消防處亦都推出咗針對 27 一啲、一啲針對性嘅措施去加強嗰個消防裝置失效嘅警示,要求所有嘅消防裝置承辦商 28 佢哋喺關閉相關嘅一啲消防裝置嘅同時咧,佢哋係需要咧有責任咧,要去識別、去評估 29 同埋係去呈報對其他嘅裝置會唔會有一啲連鎖嘅影響?並且要向大廈業主啦、佔用人 30 啦,以至係物業嘅管理公司去披露相關情況,等到佢哋都要知悉同埋作出相應準備。同 31 時亦都新增咗一啲嘅封條張貼嘅要求,要用一啲綠色或者紅色嘅封條標示消防總電源嘅 32 供電狀態,以確保相關人士能夠即時去知悉。另一方面,屋宇署亦有展開咗特別嘅行 33 動,巡查大約400 幢正進行大型維修工程嘅一啲私人樓宇,收集棚網嘅樣本送交一啲認 34

Evidential Hearing in relation to fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po

A Court Reporting Transcript by Epiq 16

可嘅實驗室去做化驗,並且向所有註冊咗嘅建築專業人士同埋註冊承建商去發出通告, 1 要求佢哋咧要提供棚網阻燃標準嘅相關證書以及係測試嘅報告。而發展局亦都喺2025 2 年嘅12 月3 日係指令咧,係所有當時嚟講係做緊一啲大型維修嘅樓宇嘅棚網要喺3 個 3 工作天裏邊即時下架,然後屋宇署其後公佈一個註冊承建商嘅作業備考85,喺制度上增 4 設多重嘅關卡,包括咧喺要求承建商喺棚網上番架之前必須取得一啲認可嘅阻燃測試報 5 告,而測試需要由政府指定嘅認可實驗所進行,報告亦都需要加密同埋數碼簽署,並設 6 有一個實地抽查機制。呢啲都係去確保當時嚟講係儘快、儘快去移除或者減免關於棚網 7 嘅火險。而勞工署亦都係即時展開咗香港、全港嘅、全港性嘅一個特別行動,去巡查架 8 設有大型棚架嘅維修工程嘅地盤嘅防火設施,同埋火災嘅應變安排。至於喺中長期嘅改 9 革方面咧,政府喺我哋嘅書面嘅開場陳詞裏面亦都有詳細去列明各項嘅措施,呢個係橫 10 跨多個政府部門同埋監管嘅範疇,主要嘅方向就包括以下幾點嘅:修訂建築物條例啦, 11 將大型維修工程由第二級嘅小型工程提升至第一級,去將相關嗰個規管要求亦都係將佢 12 提升。加強對棚網物料嘅一定法定阻燃標準嘅一啲要求,以及相關嘅檢控機制,加強對 13 註冊建築專業人士同埋註冊嘅承建商嘅規管,包括係提高一啲違規嘅法則同埋強化一啲 14 紀律處分嘅制度。建議喺大廈嘅消防裝置關閉之前,佢哋要首先取得消防處嘅批准,而 15 唔係淨係去通知消防處。並且引入一啲物業管理公司對大廈消防設施嘅一啲法定管理嘅 16 責任,以及透過加強版嘅“招標妥”嘅服務去減低大型維修工程一啲圍標嘅風險。而此 17 外,各部門亦都會喺四個層面:一、政策嘅制定啦;二、日常嘅巡查啦;三、執法嘅行 18 動啦;四、一啲緊急嘅危機嘅應對等等,係會作出一啲系統性嘅優化,呢個跨部門協作 19 嘅機制。主席、兩位委員,政府理解委員會亦都會喺完整嘅事實查找之後,係會考慮就 20 改革喺作出建議,所以政府亦都係歡迎並且係期待委員會嘅建議,亦將會認真去考慮同 21 埋跟進。而我哋可以預期啦,政府部門已經提出嘅部分嘅改善嘅建議,例如一啲限制工 22 程嘅規模吖,施工嘅流程吖,物流質量嘅合規要求等等咧,因應工程規模嘅強化審核等 23 等,係會對日後嘅工程成本、施工嘅時間或者其他實際上嘅考慮係會有所影響嘅。而政 24 府嘅部門或者就呢啲改善建議作出相應嘅諮詢,尋求業界以及其他社會界別嘅共識嘅。 25 主席、兩位委員,喺最後政府希望再次強調,喺今次嘅調查裏面咧,政府嘅態度係誠 26 懇、開放同埋全力配合,我哋期待透過本次嘅調查,係可以吸取深刻以及沉痛嘅、沉重 27 嘅教訓,加強監管,完善制度,去推動真正有意義嘅制度改革。多謝主席同埋兩位委 28 員。 29 陸啟康法官:多謝代表政府各個部門嘅孫資深大律師。咁我哋而家嘅時間,我諗都係一個適合嘅 30 時間做一個早休啦。咁我諗我哋會喺幾方面發言嘅。我或者講一講次序方面,好不好 31 啊?我諗係咪下一部分應該會係市建局會做陳詞,跟住我諗係應該到呢一個嘅…你哋會 32 想由呢個競爭事務委員會嗰邊做,亦或者ISS 或者合安? 33 許偉強資深大律師:主席,我冇咩特別嘅安排,不過我相信避免你推我讓咧,或者我可以開始先 34

Evidential Hearing in relation to fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po

A Court Reporting Transcript by Epiq 17

嘅。 1 陸啟康法官:但係你會喺市建局之後。 2 許偉強資深大律師:市建局之後,唔該。 3 陸啟康法官:Okay,跟着或者可能合安做埋先,先至最後到…因為呢個競爭事務委員會嗰個 4 會…… 5 杜淦堃資深大律師:法官閣下,我哋獲通知,合安嘅大律師代表咧可能要我哋下午預少少時間畀 6 佢哋,因為係排期嘅問題。我哋可以建議或者做咗其他涉事方先,係下午預留小小時間 7 畀佢。 8 陸啟康法官:或者我哋就市建局,跟住係ISS,然後跟住就係競爭事務委員,然後最後合安嗰 9 邊,好嗎?Okay,而家係朝頭早小休嘅時間,10 分鐘。 10

11 11 時18 分聆訊押後 12 11 時30 分聆訊恢復 13 11 時30 分呂世杰資深大律師代表市區重建局作開場陳詞 14

15 陸啟康法官:請市區重建局嘅呂資深大律師陳詞。 16 呂世杰資深大律師:主席、兩位委員,首先我謹代表市建局全體同仁以及法律團隊向所有受宏福 17 苑火災影響嘅家庭同埋個別人士致以最深切嘅慰問。我哋相信罹難者會永遠係我哋香港 18 人嘅懷念當中,請大家節哀。市建局團隊亦都喺呢度莊嚴咁向委員會同埋社會大眾保 19 證,我哋會竭盡所能用務實、謙卑嘅態度,以及致力服務香港社會嘅責任協助委員會完 20 成調查,並就如何優化現行制度提出建議。社會大眾會問,究竟市建局喺今次導致宏福 21 苑火災嘅大型樓宇維修工程裏面所接觸嘅範疇係乜嘢?以及市建局係該等範疇嘅參與程 22 度又有幾多?嚟緊以下嘅陳詞,我會扼要咁説明呢啲事項,同時強調一系列係今次市建 23 局認為大家必須牢牢謹記嘅要點。眾所周知,市建局其中一個職能係促進以及推廣樓宇 24 維修保養。自2001 年成立,25 年嚟,市建局按照市區重建局條例賦予嘅角色以及職能 25 推廣樓宇復修。用倡導以及促進嘅手法,透過提供財政資源以及技術援助,鼓勵協助業 26 主適時保養維修樓宇。喺呢度、呢度我會帶出、帶出第一個要點,喺樓宇維修保養嘅範 27 疇,市建局從來只係扮演一個“促進者(English Spoken)”嘅角色。2011 年香港政 28 府公佈市區重建策略,市區重建策略係政府嘅政策,由市建局同其他持份者參與執行。 29 市建局以備業務綱領嘅時候喺必須依從市區重建策略嘅指引,喺政策嘅框架底下,亦都 30 係政策嘅層面,市建局喺樓宇復修方面從來嘅角色都係促進者。同樣喺法律嘅層面,喺 31 市建局條例涵蓋嘅市建局職能係並不包括直接參與私人樓宇嘅復修工作。上星期五委員 32 會律師指出市建局嘅講法,係佢哋只係招標行政上做協助,我哋必須強調呢個唔係市建 33 局憑空捏造嘅講法,呢個係政策框架,呢個係法律規範。有關招標,喺早年協助業主籌 34

Evidential Hearing in relation to fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po

A Court Reporting Transcript by Epiq 18

組維修嘅過程裏面,市建局留意到有不法分子操控招標嘅情況,例如只有個別嘅承建商 1 能夠收到招標文件,或者用不法嘅手段逼使其他有意入標嘅承建商,或者截標後逼退有 2 意入標嘅承建商,或者係截標之後刻意遺失部分表述,更加嚴重嘅甚至喺包括篡改開 3 標、評標嘅結果,或者決定判標嘅時候刻意忽略較低價嘅標書等等。有鑑及此,市建局 4 喺2013 年為進行大廈維修嘅業主提供一個叫做“新招標”嘅安排,將原本由業主立案 5 法團顧問或者物業管理公司負責嘅招標程序改由市建局委任嘅獨立會計師事務所處理。 6 服務包括收集承建商嘅投標意向書、派發招標文件、處理回標以及開標嘅程序,整個過 7 程由獨立註冊會計師用公開、公正嘅方式進行以及核實,既保障投標者身份唔會被泄 8 露,亦確保招標過程公平、公正以及具競爭性。又見市場上持份者嘅非常正面嘅反映, 9 市建局喺3 年後之後,2016 年5 月推出“招標妥”服務,喺較早前呢個新招標安排嘅基 10 礎上加強對業主喺招標過程嘅支援,宏福苑業主立案法團係喺2018 年嘅2 月2 號提交 11 申請參加“招標妥”,大家喺熒光幕見到嘅文件係市建局喺2018 年派發畀成功申請人 12 士嘅自助工具手冊。“招標妥”提供三項支援:一、電子招標平台,呢個平台令所有有 13 興趣投標嘅合資格承建商末都可以收到招標通知,下載所有招標文件同埋入標。第二係 14 一個修標、開標嘅服務,市建局設立中央標箱,為收到嘅標書提供保安,同時安排註冊 15 會計師進行開標;第三,大家喺熒光幕見到獨立專業人士,就係第二嗰個…頭先我啱啱 16 講嘅收標、開標服務,第三點係獨立顧問嘅服務,亦就係熒幕見到嘅第一點,獨立工程 17 評估服務。市建局會安排獨立顧問為業主提供第三方嘅獨立專業意見同埋支援,協助業 18 主審閲佢哋自行聘用嘅工程顧問草擬嘅樓宇勘察報告以及招標文件,並且喺招標嘅階段 19 為相關嘅項目提供工程費嘅估算畀所有業主參考。以獨立顧問亦都會就工程顧問草擬嘅 20 評標報告給予意見,協助業主揀選合適嘅承辦商。就宏福苑而言,市建局安排咗富邦測 21 量師行(English Spoken)作為佢哋喺“招標妥”計劃下邊嘅獨立顧問,並且喺2018 22 年3 月6 日向業主立案法團發出“招標妥”嘅服務協議通知書。概括嚟講,大廈樓宇維 23 修嘅工程牽扯三大工作:第一,認可人士或者註冊檢驗人員進行勘測;第二,認可人士 24 或者註冊檢驗人員用工程顧問嘅身份就承建商嘅招標過程向業主提供服務;第三,由註 25 冊承建商做維修工程。嗱,喺宏福苑呢個案件,當然宏業就係承建商,而鴻毅就係我哋 26 頭先講嘅第一點同第二點嘅註冊認可人士或者註冊檢驗人員,佢哋做咗勘察,亦都係以 27 一個工程顧問嘅身份被業主委任。喺呢個框架底下,市建局安排嘅獨立顧問嘅角色又係 28 乜嘢咧?而家我哋喺熒光幕見到一個2018 年會派發畀成功申請人士嘅申請須知,文件 29 嘅第5 頁用咗一個好簡單嘅流程表解釋咗獨立顧問嘅參與。呢個就係當時嘅流程表,左 30 邊係業主組織需要進行嘅程序,右邊係“招標妥”計劃嘅服務流程。第一,左邊成功嘅 31 申請人同市建局簽署,簽訂一個服務協議,而喺呢個階段之後,獨立工程、獨立顧問就 32 會按申請人樓宇嘅公用地方所需要進行嘅工程項目提供粗略估算。跟住成功嘅申請人會 33 聘請認可人士或者註冊檢驗人員,喺呢個步驟完成之後,“招標妥”嘅獨立顧問就會就 34

Evidential Hearing in relation to fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po

A Court Reporting Transcript by Epiq 19

申請人聘用嘅認可人士、註冊檢驗人員所提交嘅樓宇勘察報告、工程標書同埋工程估算 1 提供意見同埋工程費用嘅估算。下一步左邊,成功嘅申請人招聘註冊一般嘅建築承建 2 商,當然亦都係我哋案件中嘅宏業。然後右邊透過電子招標平台進行註冊一般承建商嘅 3 招標工作,最後成功嘅申請人會揀選佢哋心儀嘅建築承建商,而喺呢個步驟之前咧,當 4 然即係業主投票之前咧,獨立嘅顧問就會就申請人聘用嘅認可人士同埋檢驗人員所提交 5 嘅標書分析報告提供意見。提供完呢個意見之後,等業主佢哋揀完承建商,“招標妥” 6 嘅服務就會完結。瞭解咗嗰流程後我想強調三個要點:第一,就宏福苑嚟講,市建局 7 對… 8 陸啟康法官:我想問下呂資深大律師,呢個流程表係咪喺文件夾入面? 9 呂世杰資深大律師:喺文件夾嘅。 10 陸啟康法官:可唔可以畀個(English Spoken)我? 11 呂世杰資深大律師:可以。呢個申請須知係喺URA 嘅381 頁,而右上角你會見到喺我哋的文件會 12 有386 頁,就係呢個流程表。 13 陸啟康法官:Okay,唔該曬。 14 呂世杰資深大律師:呢個流程表其實可以講多兩句,就係喺當時2018 年嘅流程表,喺市建局向 15 委員會提交嘅所有、兩個證人供詞,其實裏邊講咗,喺所有由2016 年開始,其實市建 16 局係不斷咁擴展呢個服務平台嗰個範圍嘅。我稍候應該會提到呢一點,就係我而家講到 17 嘅第一點。就宏福苑嚟講,市建局對招聘鴻毅嘅過程、同埋認知、同埋參與係極度有 18 限。鴻毅無論作為勘察人員或者工程顧問都唔係通過“招標妥”作出招聘,理由係咁 19 嘅,業主立案法團喺2018 年2 月申請參加“招標妥”嘅時候,“招標妥”嘅計劃只係 20 提供電子招標平台嘅服務去支援招聘承建商,即係其後我哋、即係其後業主聘用嘅宏 21 業。其實申請書嘅第1 頁申請須知大家都會見到,佢嗰度講:“招標妥”呢個計劃係一 22 項收費服務計劃,旨在根據大廈及建築物管理條例而成立嘅業主組織,為樓宇提供工 23 程、提供支援服務,並透過“招標妥”平台招聘註冊一般承建商以進行樓宇公用地方嘅 24 維修工程,當時係唔包括工程顧問。事實就係要去到2018 年嘅7 月,即係大概4、5 個 25 月之後,市建局先至擴充“招標妥”嘅服務,先至開始提供電子招標平台服務去支援招 26 聘工程顧問,呢個係第一點。第二點,基於契約自由嘅重要原則,市建局多年嚟其中一 27 個重要嘅政策考量就係唔可以干預業主喺招標過程裏面嘅考慮同埋決定。市建局嘅職能 28 在於以促進者同埋資訊提供者嘅角色盡力協助業主揀選合適嘅工程顧問或者承建商。市 29 建局嘅職能係唔包括直接參與復修工作,物業係業主擁有嘅私人資產,市建局絕對唔可 30 以越俎代庖,取代業主做任何決定,市建局當然唔會偏袒任何投標者,更加唔想畀市場 31 上嘅業主一個印象,就係市建局係會偏袒任何一方嘅。技術上有啲問題,我想畀委員會 32 睇一睇申請須知嘅第6 頁,因為當中第8.1 同8.2 段清楚列明呢一點。主席,唔好意 33 思,少少嘅時間。係。熒光幕見到喺頭先嘅申請須知嘅聲明部分,8.1 市建局嘅服務係 34

Evidential Hearing in relation to fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po

A Court Reporting Transcript by Epiq 20

安排為成功嘅申請人聘請獨立專業人士,以代理人為成功嘅申請人聘請電子招標平台服 1 務提供者同埋註冊會計師,為成功嘅申請人提供技術協助同埋專業意見,以不會取代成 2 功申請人所聘請嘅認可人士、註冊檢驗人員嘅原有角色同埋責任。8.2.市建局係唔會介 3 入或者干預業主喺揀選認可人士、註冊檢驗人員及註冊一般承建商嘅決定,業主可以按 4 其意願選擇最合適者,若業主喺過程中發現有任何涉及刑事或不公平嘅情況,應該向有 5 關政府部門或專責機構反映同埋報道。呢個亦都係正如我講,反映咗市建局多年以嚟一 6 個很重要嘅政策上嘅考量。第三點,基於財政同埋人力資源嘅規限,市建局根本唔可能 7 實際去直接參與收復工作,包括審核所有投標者提供嘅資料。市建局嘅財政同埋人力資 8 源規劃係按政策框架同埋法律規範而訂立,市建局實際上係冇預留任何人力資源去直接 9 參與樓宇嘅復修工作。熒光幕顯示到,市建局喺2018 至2019 年度,一路直到2023 至 10 2024 年度,喺“招標妥”計劃底下需要處理嘅個案。大家見到喺呢六個季度裏邊係有4 11 倍嘅增加。由2018 年嘅1760 宗/年直去到2023、2024 年度去到6841 宗。當時一路直 12 到去2024 年第三季之前,市建局亦都提交咗證據,就係指出佢哋大概有120 個個案負 13 責人員,每個人員會由始至終咁處理每一個案件,而每個人員需要同一時間處理差不多 14 成57 個案件,資源嘅緊缺不言而喻。上星期五,委員會律師向大家指出有關宏業喺投標 15 過程中嘅、提供嘅訴訟記錄,嗰啲記錄係有律師樓發出嘅信件做確認,委員會律師形容 16 市建局的立場係“照單全收”,市建局不敢苟同。如果有人有心合謀提供虛假嘅訴訟記 17 錄,市建局冇可能喺正常“招標妥”嘅操作下偵測到異常,更何況宏業,鴻毅只係喺嗰 18 此招標裏面、57 間招標公司嘅其中一間投標者。市建局期盼社會同埋委員會喺審視市建 19 局立場嘅時候會充分咁去認識、理解政策同埋法律框架下對市建局職能上嘅規範,市建 20 局喺“招標妥”計劃中扮演嘅角色,市建局喺資源上嘅規限等等。我哋認為明示或者暗 21 示市建局並冇盡忠職守嘅説法實在有欠公允。指出以上嘅要點係因為市建局認為所有人 22 必須用持平嘅態度去正確理解現行制度嘅各項細節,包括政策層面嘅細節同埋執行上嘅 23 細節,先至喺、能夠喺呢個聽證會全面審視現行制度嘅不足,從而提出可行以及有效嘅 24 改善建議。宏福苑火災揭示咗樓宇維修整個作業流程積弊已深,業主可能面對合謀貪腐 25 嘅風險,再次敲響咗系統性圍標問題嘅警號。因應事件,市建局同政府認同有需要以更 26 加針對業主係籌組大型維修工程所缺乏嘅能力以及知識,加強“招標妥”服務嘅協助。 27 市建局現正同政府敲定加強版“招標妥”嘅具體措施同埋執行細節,其實較早前已經新 28 聞公告有策略嘅描述,但是喺過程中仲有一啲商討,實際落實措施將會適時公佈。最 29 後,任何制度都無法做到萬無一失,即使加強版“招標妥”亦未必能夠杜絕圍標嘅手 30 段,更加唔應該被視為解決所有違規違法行為嘅靈丹妙藥。樓宇維修作業流程涉及嘅工 31 序同埋項目多而繁複,參與嘅持份者亦非常廣泛,市建局並非執法或者有權利調查嘅機 32 構,唔可能憑一己之力去處理涉及貪污、圍標、承建商或工程顧問作虛假聲明,或者其 33 他方面嘅違規行為。解決樓宇維修嘅亂象必須從整個體系以及作業流程,以更加宏觀同 34

Evidential Hearing in relation to fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po

A Court Reporting Transcript by Epiq 21

埋全面嘅策略着手,我哋期盼政府、監管機構、業界同埋業主會共同努力,引導樓宇維 1 修市場操作重回正軌。多謝主席。 2

3 11 時49 分許偉強資深大律師代表置邦興業有限公司作開場陳詞 4

5 陸啟康法官:多謝呂資深大律師嘅陳詞,跟住我下一階段想請ISS 管理公司嘅代表大律師陳詞。 6 許偉強資深大律師:唔該。主席、兩位委員,我連通何大律師同埋楊大律師受霍金路偉律師行, 7 委聘喺今次聽證會代表ISS 全名為(English Spoken)置邦興業有限公司。接下來我會 8 簡稱佢為ISS 或者係管理公司。我首先謹代表ISS 同埋我哋整個律師團隊再一次對呢一 9 場火災慘劇表示極度悲痛,並對災難者所有罹難者嘅家屬,同埋其他受影響嘅居民致以 10 最深切嘅慰問。作為今次聽證會其中一個涉事方,ISS 完全明確呢一個調查工作嘅重要 11 性同埋涉及嘅巨大公眾利益。喺獨立委員會成立同埋開展咗調查工作之後,管理公司由 12 管理層直至佢哋嘅前線員工都非常嚴肅處理同埋認真地處理有關調查嘅工作,並盡一切 13 嘅努力積極並且坦誠咁配合同埋協助委員會嘅工作。直至目前為止,管理公司就已經向 14 委員會提出咗兩輪嘅書面回應,同埋亦都係提交咗總共有7 份證人口供,亦都附上咗有 15 關嘅文件。而係今次嘅聽證會入邊,管理公司會繼續全力配合有關委員會嘅工作,我哋 16 都會細心地、虛心地聆聽各方面嘅陳詞、證供同埋建議,正視所有可能關乎管理公司嘅 17 議題並適時作出回應,我哋希望透過今次調查、學習同埋了解是否在某些方面係需要改 18 善,以避免同類悲劇再次發生。主席、兩位委員,我今日嘅陳詞主要係分為三個部分: 19 第一,我想講一講就係宏福苑有關物業管理嘅機制,其中會包括有關消防嘅安排,同埋 20 喺大廈翻新工程入邊呢個管理公司嘅角色。第二,就係就住大廈翻新工程裏面有關消防 21 呢個、消防缸有關嘅工程入面管理公司所作出嘅協助同埋配合,當然呢個包括咗委員會 22 大律師曾經有提及過喺消防泵房入邊管理公司派出、派出有兩名師傅作出嘅一啲協助, 23 呢個協助亦都係因應宏業嘅要求而提出嘅協助同埋配合。第三,就係想講一講就係火災 24 當日嘅情況同埋管理公司當時所作出嘅一啲舉措。就住機制方面,第一個、第一個部 25 分,ISS 係從1997 年已經開始係宏福苑嘅管理公司,根據ISS 同埋宏福苑業主立案法團 26 最近期嘅一份管理合約,當時係訂明咗聘用期為3 年,就係由2023 年嘅1 月直至2025 27 年嘅12 月,根據物業管理嘅合約,ISS 嘅職權其實都係同一般住宅大廈管理公司嘅職權 28 係類似,但係呢度咧我有幾點係特別希望向委員會指出。首先,有關宏福苑喺2024 年5 29 月開始進行嘅大廈翻新維修工程,我哋都知道屋苑嘅法團係聘用咗鴻毅作為工程顧問, 30 並由宏業作為總承建商,因此翻新過程嘅監督、施工同埋進度咧都係由佢哋負責。但是 31 管理公司喺呢個過程入邊咧喺有需要嘅時候提供一啲協助同埋配合,喺呢一方面我稍候 32 會有進一步嘅陳述。第二,有關消防裝置方面,管理公司按照法例要求聘請咗Victory 33 Fire,即係宏泰作為註冊消防裝置承辦商,檢視保養同埋維修大廈嘅消防裝置,其中包 34

Evidential Hearing in relation to fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po

A Court Reporting Transcript by Epiq 22

括火警鐘、緊急照明、消防喉轆同埋滅火筒等等。同委員會大律師嘅建議一樣,為咗避 1 免同宏泰閣有任何混淆咧,我都會將呢個消防裝置承辦商簡稱為“Victory Fire”。喺 2 火災發生之前,Victory Fire 喺2025 年嘅3 月份完成咗宏福苑各座大廈嘅年度檢查, 3 同埋亦都係向消防處提交咗我哋而家所知道FS-251 呢一個文件,即係有關消防規例下 4 所需要提交嘅消防裝置及設備證書。或者如果我哋可以好快睇一睇喺2025 年呢一個年 5 檢有關Victory Fire 向消防處提交嘅FS-251,如果我哋可以先睇一睇H13/6703 列出 6 咗有關宏道閣發現嘅一些問題,我哋可以睇到最後第三部分,我哋可以見到咧有些係 7 “未修缺點”有一欄嘅,第三部分,唔該。入邊我哋見到咧有啲未修嘅缺點發現到嘅喺 8 有關一啲緊急嘅照明燈,另外亦都有關於(English Spoken),即係我哋所講嘅嗰個扲 9 手,同埋有關(English Spoken),即係火警鐘一啲嘅缺陷嘅。咁另外我哋可以睇一下 10 6705,有關宏建閣,同樣我哋睇到有啲類似嘅一啲缺點係發現到嘅。而6709 有關宏志 11 閣亦都係當時喺2025 年3 月份嘅年檢嗰陣時亦都揾到一啲有關緊急照明燈(English 12 Spoken)同埋呢個火警鐘嘅一啲缺陷嘅。根據管理公司同埋Victory Fire 所提供嘅資 13 料咧,維修呢啲咁嘅損壞工程喺2025 年10 月同埋11 月都有繼續進行,我一陣間亦都 14 會帶委員會睇一睇當時發生嘅情況。第三,有關宏福苑翻新大廈維修工程入面所涉及防 15 火水缸嘅工程咧,宏業委聘咗一間註冊消防裝置承辦商中華發展(English Spoken)嚟 16 到處理。主席、兩位委員,我喺呢度想值得講清楚嘅咧就係中華發展就係就當時大廈翻 17 新,嗰個大維修工程入面涉及防火水缸所聘用、被聘用嘅消防裝置承辦商,而我剛才提 18 及嘅Victory Fire 就係喺宏福苑一般嘅嗰個防火裝置入面係擔任註冊嘅承辦商。另 19 外,我想簡單提一提嘅咧就係有關宏福苑維新大維修過程中工人吸煙嘅問題。管理公司 20 都已經提交咗資料同埋證供講出我哋當時採取嘅措施,其中包括有關記錄居民嘅投訴, 21 同埋同宏業跟進有關工人吸煙嘅問題啦,喺大廈張貼禁煙告示等等,同埋如果有管理員 22 見到有工人吸煙作出勸予同埋制止,喺呢一方面咧我哋都聽到委員會大律師嘅陳詞入邊 23 都已經提及咗呢啲舉措,所以我唔會再重複。而家我想去到第二部分,就係有關大廈翻 24 新維修工程嘅時候,管理公司所作出嘅配合同埋協助。2025 年5 月至到8 月期間,宏業 25 係需要就宏福苑消防缸防水工程係進行排水嘅工作,為咗呢一項工程咧,當時宏業係請 26 求ISS 管理處提供協助。根據宏業嘅請求咧,管理處其實發出咗總共有8 張工作單。但 27 係而家我哋管理公司手頭係有3 張,而我哋提供嘅3 張管理嗰個工作單我哋可以喺度睇 28 一睇,就係H2/6779,6779 呢度我哋見到係7 月份,2025 年7 月8 號我哋發出有關宏 29 道閣排水工作嘅呢個工作單。如果我哋去到6780 咧,我們可以、下一頁我哋可以見到 30 咧,就係2025 年8 月18 號有關宏昌閣嘅類似嘅工作。6781 就係8 月28 號就住宏仁閣 31 嘅有關工作單。喺回應委員會嘅查詢嘅時候,管理公司對有關佢哋前線嘅員工當時為咗 32 因應呢一個宏業嘅要求而協助就住呢一個消防水缸進行排水事宜咧作出咗調查,而我哋 33 得知咗調查結果之後,亦都係第一時間通知咗委員會有關嘅情況。管理公司當時曾經協 34

Evidential Hearing in relation to fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po

A Court Reporting Transcript by Epiq 23

助宏業進行排水事宜嘅兩位員工,即係委員會大律師有提過嘅李承富(音)先生同埋羅 1 國瑞(音)先生兩位,佢哋分別係ISS 喺宏福苑工程部門嘅木工同埋電工,而佢哋兩位 2 都係坦誠咁樣敍述咗佢哋當時係協助宏業喺每一座大廈嘅主要泵房同埋消防泵房所提供 3 嘅協助同埋配合。其中尤其係是羅師傅,佢亦都講述咗當時佢就宏業喺呢個消防泵房在 4 做出排水工程嘅時候,佢係刪咗呢一個消防泵嘅總掣,佢係坦誠啲講出咗呢一點嘅。李 5 師傅同羅師傅兩位都已經向委員會提交咗佢哋嘅證人供詞,希望儘可能協助委員會嘅調 6 查工作。就住李師傅同埋羅師傅當時同宏業嘅人員喺兩個泵房嘅工作過程,羅師傅關掉 7 消防加壓泵總掣嘅原因同埋羅師傅就關咗嗰個總掣對於消防警報系統佢嘅認知,呢幾方 8 面當然我相信一定係喺委員會往後嘅聽證會入面,係希望進一步瞭解嘅問題。而呢兩位 9 師傅亦都會喺聽證會向大家交代。然而喺呢一方面除咗考慮呢兩位師傅嘅證供同埋其他 10 管理公司人員嘅證供之外咧,我哋都希望提出幾點以供委員會考慮。其中有不少已經喺 11 委員會大律師嘅陳詞入邊有提過,不過我可以再贅述番有幾點。第一,正如我之前所 12 講,宏業委聘嘅中華發展(English Spoken)喺作為負責消防水缸維修工程嘅註冊消防 13 裝置承辦商。中華發展亦都就工程係向消防處發出咗我哋知道嘅(English Spoken)。 14 但係咧當有關排水工程係涉及消防加壓泵房嘅時候,我哋當然係需要了解究竟 15 (English Spoken)是否曾經參與過有關任何工作嘅任何設定或者係安排,同埋有冇就 16 住呢方面嘅工作向宏業或者向管理公司提供任何指示或者指引?而正如委員會大律師有 17 提及啦,我哋而家知道其實呢啲(English Spoken)亦都只係就住消防喉轆嘅問題所發 18 出,而係冇就住消防警鐘方面發出嘅。第二點,根據李師傅同埋羅師傅嘅證供,佢哋就 19 8 座大廈排水工程向宏業提供協助嘅時候咧,呢個成個情況其實喺2025 年8 月底已經完 20 成㗎喇,即係佢哋嘅協助同埋配合。而呢個係同其他文件我哋見到嘅時序係吻合嘅。因 21 此,喺2025 年8 月底至到11 月26 日發生火災整整大概3 個月期間,是否有任何人注 22 意到或者應該注意到消防加壓泵嘅總掣嘅狀況係點樣?呢度有幾點我想就住現時我哋喺 23 文件夾入邊有啲文件咧,我都想邀請委員會去考慮一下。首先,負責8 座大廈消防水缸 24 工程,尤其是係水泥同埋呢個油漆工程,總共有兩個二判,名為太陽建設亞洲工程有限 25 公司,同埋天虹工程有限公司(音)。每一間二判分別係負責4 座大廈嘅有關工程嘅。 26 根據太陽建設油漆工人馮偉業向警方提供嘅口供,呢度喺C1/21186/第8 段入邊提及。 27 呢位馮師傅就講到啦,佢就係太陽建設嘅油漆工人。佢有提到就係有關宏道閣、宏新 28 閣、宏建閣同埋宏泰閣呢4 座大廈防火水缸維修工程其實已經喺2025 年11 月頭完成。 29 呢個係佢嘅講法,另外,如果我們睇一下1179 頁,喺天虹工程公司嘅泥水工人呂時龍 30 向警方所提供嘅口供,第6 段入邊所講,有一個表嘅,呢度我哋睇到咧宏盛閣嘅有關工 31 程喺嗰個表嘅第二欄可以見到,宏盛閣有關工程喺2025 年9 月份就已經完成。而宏仁 32 閣嘅工程亦都喺2025 年11 月21 日完成。至於未完成嘅工程,我哋可以見到宏志閣同 33 埋宏昌閣,就住宏志閣我哋可以從文件嘅內容見到:“已完成防水油漆,但試水後有漏 34

Evidential Hearing in relation to fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po

A Court Reporting Transcript by Epiq 24

水。”呢度係我哋見到工人所敍述嘅情況。喺呢啲情況下,有關我哋而家呢度見到“已 1 完成嘅工程”,喺工程完成之後同埋未完成嘅工程係需要進行試水嘅過程中,宏業或者 2 中華發展是否曾經係需要重新啓動防火系統同埋有關嘅電源,而喺呢個過程中,是否有 3 或者應該注意到防火加壓泵房嘅總掣嘅狀況?呢啲問題我相信委員會之後都會去探討。 4 嗱,此外,根據Victory Fire 所提供嘅資料,佢哋喺2025 年10 月同埋11 月,多次就 5 住我剛才提到嘅3 月份嗰個年檢所發現嗰啲缺失嘅問題咧,就係進行咗維修嘅。 6 Victory Fire 負責維修消防系統水喉嘅其中一名技工唐慶倫喺佢嘅證人口供都提及過, 7 就係喺2025 年10 月16 同埋17 日,在更換各座大廈消防喉嘅嘅相關工作中,喺準備進 8 行消防喉測試嘅時候,發現消防喉係冇水出,而水缸內… 9 陸啟康法官:可唔可以再畀番個?呢個(English Spoken)係? 10 許偉強資深大律師:好啊,呢個(English Spoken)係C1/2/1290 頁嘅第5 同埋第6 段,主 11 席。 12 陸啟康法官:1290 同埋? 13 許偉強資深大律師:1290 頁的第5 同埋第6 段。 14 陸啟康法官:唔該。 15 許偉強資深大律師:唔該。究竟當時如果發生呢種情況嘅時候,Victory Fire 是否留意到或者係 16 咪應該有留意到消防加壓泵房總掣嘅狀況咧?另外有更清晰嘅資料我哋見到,其實喺 17 2025 年11 月19 號,即係火災發生之前啱啱好喺一個星期之前,Victory Fire 派咗兩 18 名工程人員,李俊賢先生同埋黃健華先生係負責更換同埋維修防火系統嘅(English 19 Spoken),同埋有關水泵嘅斷容器,即係俗稱嘅(English Spoken)嘅工程。我哋而家 20 可以睇一睇其中一名師傅喺WS2/1538 第5 段所講,佢呢度我哋可以睇到佢哋喺第四 21 句:“喺呢個執修期間,因為要更換消防警鐘同埋個扲手,有機會有觸電風險,所以要 22 關閉消防泵總電掣先至可以施工。本人自己一個人巡查咗宏福苑全部8 座大廈地下嘅消 23 防泵總電掣,發現都已關閉,因為宏福苑嘅消防泵總電掣係同時接駁消防水泵同埋消防 24 警鐘。”等等…跟住… 25 陸啟康法官:1538?1538? 26 許偉強資深大律師:呢個係、呢個係WS2/1538 嘅第5 段。 27 陸啟康法官:哦,WS2,唔該、唔該。 28 許偉強資深大律師:咁而根據呢一位李俊賢師傅所講咧,佢發現咗之後,佢亦都有係同管理公司 29 嘅一名鄭小姐有聯絡過,而鄭小姐係都係本次聽證會管理公司所提供嘅其中一名證人。 30 如果我哋再睇一睇之後發生嘅事情,喺兩日之後,如果我哋睇一睇WS2/1538 嘅第6 31 段:“11 月21 日大概下午1 點半,本人再次到達宏福苑H 座18 樓更換消防警鐘同埋 32 24 樓更換扲手,大約喺1 點45 分,本人經巡查後發現H 座嘅消防泵總電掣仍被關上, 33 本人當日並沒有再檢查其餘7 座。”等等。所以亦都係再一次確認當時Victory Fire 34

Evidential Hearing in relation to fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po

A Court Reporting Transcript by Epiq 25

嘅同事係、亦都係意識到嗰個消防泵房總掣嘅狀況。另外,根據Victory Fire 所提供 1 另外一份證人口供,喺WS2/1531,WS2/1531 第11 段及呢個係Victory Fire 其中一名 2 董事所作嘅證供,呢度亦都有講出咧,喺火災發生當天,正正就係11 月26 日嘅時候, 3 佢哋負責維修嘅工程係剛好在當天完成,但係由於消防泵總掣仍在關掉狀態,所以未能 4 對工程進行測試。有關我哋剛才見到就10 月、11 月,Victory Fire 就多次喺進行維修 5 過程中發現嘅問題,尤其是對於消防泵總掣狀況發現嘅問題,我哋覺得呢個可能衍生以 6 下有幾個關鍵嘅問題:第一,就係Victory Fire 作為宏福苑註冊消防裝置承辦商,喺 7 發現消防泵總電源已經關閉,以至8 幢大廈消防警鐘停止運作嘅情況下,究竟考慮同埋 8 採取咗乜嘢步驟或者設施,以確保消防警鐘儘快恢復正常運作?第二,Victory Fire 喺 9 知悉有關總掣已經被關掉情況下,是否有責任向消防處申報或者跟進呢個問題?呢個當 10 然亦都牽涉Victory Fire 係咪有責任就呢個事情向消防處係作出通知?而我相信委員 11 會喺探討火警期間,消防警鐘失效呢一個問題上面咧必定係會客觀地、公平地就住以上 12 嘅問題咧作出充分嘅考慮,以作結論。最後咧係我第三個部分,就係想講一講火災當日 13 所發生嘅情況。我想簡短咁樣講兩個問題,第一,火警發生嘅時候,管理公司所作出嘅 14 應變同埋舉措。嗱,就此我想邀請大家睇一睇ISS 工程主任林文恩先生,亦都係委員會 15 大律師曾經有提過佢嘅證供嘅。喺WS2/1217 第20 至到22 段,正如委員會大律師喺陳 16 詞入面有提述過,就係林文恩先生喺火警時候咧,佢先喺宏仁閣嘗試用手打破 17 (English Spoken),但係警鐘唔響,由於當時情況緊急啦,佢就嘗試去開啓消防加壓 18 泵房嘅總掣,之後聽見防火警鐘響起。然而當佢去到宏道閣嘗試用同一個方法啓動消防 19 警鐘嘅時候呢卻未能成功,而佢最後到宏新閣嘗試用同一個方法啓動消防警鐘咧,亦都 20 再次令警鐘響起。呢個方面我哋留意到消防處亦都有報告咧,就住警鐘嘅問題,有幾點 21 我覺得喺現階段值得注意嘅。我想邀請委員會睇一睇B2/1893 至1894,喺1893/3.3 嗰 22 度咧,我哋可以見到根據消防處有關嘅報告咧,我哋見到就係8 座大廈其中7 座嘅 23 (English Spoken)都係斷咗嘅。我哋見到第一就係喺未被大火影響嘅宏志閣、宏志 24 閣,係喇,宏志閣,宏志閣嘅情況咧,就係雖然佢係冇被大火影響,但係佢嘅 25 (English Spoken)被發現依然都係斷咗嘅。第二,宏仁閣如果我哋向上睇番嗰測試情 26 況,就係宏仁閣就算係更換咗(English Spoken)之後咧,仍然係未能重啓消防加壓泵 27 房嘅系統。第三,如果我哋可以睇一睇1894 頁嘅Ⅲ嗰度有提及,就係有關宏盛閣嘅情 28 況發現(English Spoken)發毛,而警鐘系統於消防處測試期間,當然呢個就係火警之 29 後所進行嘅測試期間亦都無法啓動。上述情況同埋林文恩先生佢話喺宏道閣嘗試開啓番 30 嗰個總掣之後,但嗰個火警鐘都冇再着番,呢個情況有冇關聯咧?可能相信亦都係可能 31 係委員會希望調查嘅方向。另外,呢啲問題可能關乎到(English Spoken)同埋呢個消 32 防警鐘本身嘅系統係咪存在任何設計上或者功能上嘅問題,呢個可能都需要我哋探討。 33 我琴晚深夜嘅時候,我哋都收到有一份喺消防處江先生所提供最新嘅一份證人口供,佢 34

Evidential Hearing in relation to fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po

A Court Reporting Transcript by Epiq 26

喺6.2 同埋6.3 段亦都有提過嗰個(English Spoken)嘅問題,佢亦都再次講出有關嘅 1 (English Spoken)係同埋嗰個警鐘嗰個系統嘅關係啦,同埋斷咗(English 2 Spoken)對於警鐘嗰個影響。而喺6.2 段咧,佢亦都有提到嗰啲(English Spoken)係 3 受到高熱所引致一啲非常嚴重嘅損壞嘅,所以佢當時喺證人口供都有提到,如果就算嗰 4 個電源係啓動番咧,由於嗰個(English Spoken)嘅問題咧,可能嗰個警鐘都係無法正 5 常運作嘅。所以就住呢個問題,我相信都係一個調查嘅方向。此外咧,管理公司嘅證人 6 證供入邊都提到,管理處嘅職員喺火災發生嘅時候,佢哋有用擴音器係呼籲居民疏散, 7 然後由於火勢持續,所以管理人員咧都被要求離開現場,呢個喺大律師嘅陳詞都有提 8 及。主席、兩位委員,我以上嘅陳詞主要係涉及委員會職權範圍第一個事項。至於有關 9 第二個事項,管理公司亦都係佢哋向委員會提交嘅資料入邊有提過,就係喺有關委聘顧 10 問、建築顧問同埋承建商嘅過程裏面,管理公司嘅參與係較為有限,最主要嘅工作係一 11 啲行政上面嘅工作,包括整理文件、出席有關法團嘅會議同埋跟進有關會議嘅記錄等 12 等。所以我喺現階段唔打算就呢一方面作進一步嘅陳詞。當然如果有需要,管理公司係 13 樂意喺聽證會提供一切嘅協助。最後,我想重申管理公司係深明呢一次調查工作對遇難 14 者家屬,對於受影響嘅災民,同埋對於整個社會嘅重要性。所以喺往後嘅聽證會入面, 15 管理公司都係必定會盡力就委員會嘅工作提供進一步嘅協助同埋配合,多謝。 16

17 12 時23 分李曉亮先生代表競爭事務委員會作開場陳詞 18

19 陸啟康法官:唔該曬ISS 嘅法律代表,咁下一個輪住嘅就應該會係競爭事務委員會嘅律師代表, 20 唔該。 21 李曉亮先生:感謝主席。主席、兩位委員,我謹代表競委會希望作出以下非常之簡短嘅陳詞。今 22 次協助我嘅有競委會嘅蕭雅怡女士,亦都有劉女士嘅。其實競委會喺我哋開案陳詞就住 23 職權範圍2 嗰方面嘅説法,喺上星期五委員會嘅資深大律師亦都好詳盡咁同委員會解釋 24 過一次,我哋都唔打算今日將呢啲陳詞去重複嘅。但係我哋希望就住職權範圍2、3 同4 25 希望作出小小嘅補充睇法。首先就住職權範圍2,競委會喺的而且確就住香港嘅樓宇復 26 修市場見到喺長期出現有系統性同埋廣泛性嘅嚴重反競爭行為,呢啲行為並不只限於圍 27 標咁簡單,呢啲行為通常都會涉及其他嚴重反競爭行為,包括合謀定價,例如兩個或以 28 上嘅承辦商,佢哋可能之間協議冇話喺邊個就住呢個標書應該要贏,但佢哋協議話大家 29 都唔好以低過某一個價格去入標。呢一個好使就算邊個將來贏標都好佢都可以謀取暴 30 利。第二個做法,我哋見到係瓜分市場嘅做法,譬如多過一個承辦商,佢哋可能之間協 31 議就住香港嘅地域瓜分市場,我做九龍,你做新界。係咁個情況之下,根本就住呢啲地 32 域上之後出現嘅招標過程,佢都唔需要再額外去再傾、再合謀,因為佢哋已經有一個概 33 括性嘅瓜分市場協議,喺咁個情況之下,呢個都係一個嚴重違反競爭行為。第三,就係 34

Evidential Hearing in relation to fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po

A Court Reporting Transcript by Epiq 27

我哋見到嘅(English Spoken),簡單啲嚟講係一個承辦商將自己嘅文件範本甚至乎電 1 郵交給予另一個友好嘅承辦商,好使呢個承辦商將來想入標嘅過程當中,可以用呢啲範 2 本嚟營造一個有競爭嘅假象。第四點就係我哋俗稱嘅“幽靈標”,簡單地來講一個業務 3 實體喺市場上成立多間公司,看似獨立,但係其實佢哋實際上都係受到同一個業務實體 4 操控,而當呢啲公司想喺市場上營造一個競爭嘅假象,佢就會安排呢啲涉事嘅公司一起 5 入標,但係“塘水滾塘魚”,到最後邊一個贏標都好,最終得益嘅都係呢個業務實體。 6 甚至乎就住圍標本身都有見到唔同嘅做法,首先我哋見到有我哋俗稱嘅(English 7 Spoken)“壓抑投標”,簡單嚟講係一個招標者同另一個招標者協定,我就住呢一個投 8 標我唔入標,或者我已經入咗個標,我撤回我張標書。其次嘅我哋見到就係一個俗稱嘅 9 (English Spoken)掩護式投標,或者坊間俗稱嘅“誅標”(音),呢啲嘅運作係點樣 10 咧?呢啲運作喺可能有兩個或以上嘅承辦商,佢哋中間已經協定咗呢一個招標過程邊一 11 個應該勝出,咁其他人負責做啲乜嘢咧?其他人咧就負責都入標,但佢哋會確保自己入 12 標嘅條件喺比擬定咗會贏嗰個投標者條件比較差。比如擬定咗會贏嗰個入標者,可能佢 13 嗰工程費用係1,000 萬嘅,其他掩護、掩護呢一個擬定咗會贏嘅入標者可能會入2,000 14 萬、3,000 萬、4,000 萬。呢個係好似當呢一個擬定咗會贏嗰個入標者嗰個標書會比相 15 關嘅顧問分析,或者相關嘅(English Spoken)去分析嘅時候會更加突出、更加容易跑 16 出。而到最後我哋見到就係坊間所稱嘅“圍標集團”,呢啲圍標集團嘅運作一般都係由 17 多個承辦商或者多個工程顧問自己組成或者加入一個圍標集團,而集團裏面會有主腦、 18 會有頭目,而呢個主腦、呢個頭目當見到市場上係有一個招標佢哋係想贏取嘅話,佢就 19 會安排喺集團旗下嘅承辦商一起入標。而呢個頭目就會主動去發放點樣入標嘅指示畀佢 20 嘅集團下邊嘅承辦商,呢個就係我哋見到坊間所稱嘅“派功課”,我派個功課畀你,你 21 之後走去交。我以下亦都希望用一啲簡單、高層次嘅案例去展述出呢個咁樣嘅圍標行為 22 喺點樣出現咧?首先,就住上星期五委員會資深大律師係同委員會展出,可能我哋見到 23 呢件案件疑似係個工程顧問篡改嗰個報告,好讓有一個佢應該希望跑出嘅承辦商喺跑 24 出。但我哋亦都見到有其他情況之下有另外一個做法,就係應該要獨立嘅工程顧問去通 25 水,話畀佢哋想贏、心怡嗰個承包商聽,呢其他嘅競爭對手如下,好讓呢個佢想贏出嘅 26 承辦商自己勸退其他有份入標嘅競爭者。呢個競委會認為係典型嘅一個“(English 27 Spoken)壓抑投標”,但亦都係一個典型嘅做法,係牽涉一個獨立或者疑似獨立嘅工程 28 顧問係有瀆職嘅行為出現。喺更加大規模嘅情況底下,競委會都見到、都曾經見到圍標 29 集團嘅運作,而呢啲集團嘅運作嘅模式正如我頭先所講,就係當集團嘅頭目佢見到有個 30 招標出現,佢喺想贏取呢個招標,佢就會“派功課”,安排集團旗下嘅承辦商根據嗰啲 31 功課去入標,而嗰啲功課最終想達至嘅目的就係掩護式嘅入標,好讓集團旗下擬定應該 32 勝出嗰個承辦商能夠喺呢個招標集團嘅勝算提高。到到最後,我哋見到曾經、我哋見到 33 亦都有更大規模嘅情況出現,就係當市場上可能出現一個大規模嘅樓宇復修嘅招標過 34

Evidential Hearing in relation to fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po

A Court Reporting Transcript by Epiq 28

程,係有時會出現多過一個圍標集團喺相關嘅招標過程運作。呢啲圍標集團有時可能係 1 分開運作,諷刺嘅佢哋可能係同大家競爭緊,但亦都有情況之下我哋見到嘅係圍標集團 2 與圍標集團之間一齊合作,一個圍標集團覺得我自己旗下嘅承辦商不夠去確保我今次勝 3 出嘅機會,所以我會問其他圍標集團去借用佢集團旗下嘅承辦商。呢啲我哋都見到,或 4 者係過往我哋自己嘅調查見到出現嘅情況。有見及此,競委會認為相關嘅嚴重反競爭行 5 為係廣泛嘅,牽扯嘅地域係全香港九龍、新界都出現,牽涉嘅承辦商數量非常多,牽涉 6 嘅工程顧問數量亦都不少。呢一個做法係有系統性嘅,我哋見到有註冊派功課嘅過程期 7 間,呢啲都係非常之有系統性咁樣進行,相關嘅參與者係不言自明咁樣識得去點樣做。 8 而到最後,我哋都見到呢一個喺一個喺市場上出現咗若干時間嘅陋習來嘅,基本上每一 9 個肯同競委會解釋相關事宜嘅證人,都不約而同同競委會講話“其實呢啲喺市場上出現 10 咗好耐㗎喇,呢啲行為。”當然,打擊大型樓宇復修嘅反競爭行為,呢個係競委會嘅執 11 法重點。喺2024 年至今,競委喺有五個調查進行中,調查牽涉68 個私人屋苑、15 個工 12 業大廈同埋64 間公司,而每一次喺競委會將我哋嘅行動曝光之後,例如我哋同法庭申請 13 咗搜查令,去行使搜查權力之後,競委會嘅一般做法都會喺去主動接觸相關嘅業主、相 14 關嘅業主立案法團,好讓佢哋能夠首先協助競委會調查。而第二就係希望喺法例容許情 15 況下,唔好畀呢啲業主、業主立案法團被矇在鼓裏。喺來緊嘅日子,競委會將會就住一 16 系列嘅我哋見到、我哋調查下邊嘅圍標集團,希望同、儘快同競爭事務審裁處提出訴 17 訟。我哋嘅訴訟策略最主要有兩點:第一,我哋希望就住所有涉事嘅公司同個人,向審 18 裁處申請同佢哋施加罰款。首先呢個除咗係要確保條例係有足夠阻嚇性之外,我哋亦都 19 唔希望呢啲不法之徒可以透過自己嘅不法手段去從中獲利。我哋希望透過罰款嘅形式, 20 確保佢哋喺呢個不法手段下賺取嘅每一蚊都要交番出嚟。第二個執法策略就係所有涉事 21 公司相關嘅管理人員,競委會一貫嘅人員都會同法庭申請將佢哋嘅董事資格取消。因為 22 競委會唔希望呢啲害羣之馬可以喺市場上、最少短期內繼續運作。而競委會希望喺陸續 23 我哋提交法庭嘅申請、申訴嘅期間,若然委員會係覺得能夠協助嘅話,我哋都非常之樂 24 意就住我哋狀書寫出嘅指控逐一同委員會分析。接來落嚟,我希望就職權範圍3 同4 進 25 行非常之簡短嘅陳述。同好多嚴重違反競爭行為一樣,圍標或者招標涉及嘅反競爭行為 26 係非常難偵破同埋檢控,理由好簡單,涉事嘅人員通常都係相當小心、相當精密咁樣將 27 佢哋自己嘅行蹤去掩蓋。正正係因為咁,其實競委會自己嘅調查裏邊亦都多次係有賴其 28 他執法部門嘅合作。正如我頭先同委員會所講,競委會嘅五個調查裏面其中有一個係同 29 警方嘅聯合調查,而其他嘅調查亦都其中有涉及同廉政公署嘅聯合調查,我哋喺非常感 30 謝其他執法部門嘅協助。就住檢控嗰個方面,呢一個亦都係對競委會有若干嘅挑戰,因 31 為雖然競爭條例係一個以民事訴訟為範本嘅一個條例,但係其實當競委會需要向競爭事 32 務審裁處申請私家罰款嗰陣時,案例指出競委會係需要喺毫無合理疑點下證明佢自己嘅 33 指控,即係呢個係一個刑事嘅舉證標準。亦都引申到嘅問題,所有證據上嘅推論一定要 34

Evidential Hearing in relation to fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po

A Court Reporting Transcript by Epiq 29

喺毫無…Sorry,一定要喺唯一不能抗拒嘅情況之下先能夠要求審裁處作出推論。呢一 1 點我希望指出嘅,呢一個係同其他司法管轄區,係有別於其他司法管轄區嘅做法,其他 2 司法管轄區我哋見到包括英國、歐盟、澳洲在內,佢哋嘅做法都係鑑於知道呢啲合謀行 3 為係難偵查、鑑於知道呢啲合謀行為係難去檢控嘅,佢都相對要求執法部門嗰個舉證去 4 到民事嗰個標準。有鑑及此,其實委員會都會見到競委會就住職權範圍4 都有立法上邊 5 嘅多方面嘅建議,其實呢啲建議都無非想做兩點:第一點,我哋唔希望從事圍標或者反 6 競爭行為嘅人係能夠逍遙法外,我哋要將佢哋能夠逃避法律制裁嘅機會減到最低。第 7 二,我哋希望將佢哋圍標或者從事反競爭行行為嘅風險成本提高。有鑑及此,競委會嘅 8 一系列嘅立法建議,包括首先我哋希望競爭條例明確地指出競委會需要喺罰款嘅訴訟嘅 9 階段嗰陣時,究竟個舉證標準應該係民事定刑事?當然競委會希望係有民事基礎去做呢 10 個訴訟。第二,我哋希望競爭條例可以引入一啲外國行之有效嘅法律假定嚟…香港嘅法 11 律嗰度可以引用。譬如如果一個競爭對手喺市場上收到另外一個競爭對手告知一啲競爭 12 性或者具競爭性敏感嘅資料,我哋希望法律可以有一個好簡單嘅假定,就係除非呢一個 13 接受資訊嘅業務實體佢出嚟解話:點解你會接收呢啲資訊,或者點解就算你接收呢啲資 14 訊,或者點解就算你接受呢啲資訊你去市場上都冇呢個引用嘅話,我哋希望法律有一個 15 好其實邏輯性嘅假定,就是佢真係有接收呢啲資料,係為咗從事一啲反競爭行為。而到 16 到最後,我哋希望喺競爭條例下邊嘅相關嘅罰款的刑法亦都希望大大提高,好讓我哋可 17 以真係達致一個具阻嚇性嘅,或者更具阻嚇性嘅一個條例。到到最後,其實競委會都留 18 意到坊間就住圍標應唔應該刑事化有好激烈嘅討論。首先,競委會希望重申,競委會其 19 實係理解同埋支持任何用立法手段去提高圍標者、反競爭行為參與者嘅風險成本。但係 20 我哋呢一度我哋希望大家留意到要小心處理,問題唔係淨係圍標咁簡單。如果刑事法只 21 係針對圍標嘅話,就會做到有小小見樹不見林嘅效果。因為當中牽涉嘅陋習唔係淨係圍 22 標咁簡單,正如我頭先所講,可以牽涉合謀定價,瓜分市場,(English Spoken)幽靈 23 標,呢啲其他陋習都應該一概被納入究不究竟刑事化呢個討論當中。主席、委員,其實 24 正如我喺指示聆訊嘅陳述一樣,競委會係高度重視今次呢個委員會嘅聆訊,我哋嘅行政 25 總裁畢仲明先生亦都多次同我提及,競委會係一定要全力同埋全面協助委員會嘅工作。 26 如果日後委員會有啲乜嘢地方需要競委會作出進一步嘅陳詞,我哋係非常之樂意配合。 27 除非有其他地方可以協助到委員會,謹此澄清。 28 陸啟康法官:唔該曬競委會嘅律師代表嘅陳詞,咁我都開心聽到我哋呢個委員係得到好多方面嘅 29 協助,我們先可以做到我哋嘅工作。咁大家亦都聽到其實我哋嘅工作仲有好多嘢要處 30 理,咁我哋今日聽到好多陳詞,我哋都要消化下,咁我哋知道合安係會喺下晝先至可以 31 畀到陳詞我哋,所以現階段我哋就會早啲啦,講好咗我哋打算2 點15 分,我哋今日下 32 晝就會開始聽呢個證人嘅供詞,我哋首先會有幾位宏福苑嘅災民係會畀證供嘅,咁我哋 33 而家押後到下晝嘅2 點15 分。 34

Evidential Hearing in relation to fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po

A Court Reporting Transcript by Epiq 30

1 12 時40 分聆訊押後 2 14 時15 分聆訊恢復 3 14 時15 分文國灝大律師代表合安管理有限公司作開場陳詞 4

5 陸啟康法官:請合安管理有限公司嘅法律代表陳詞。 6 文國灝大律師:主席閣下、各位委員,我謹代表宏福苑業主立案法團管理人:合安管理有限公司 7 就獨立委員會就宏福苑火災舉行嘅聽證會作出開場陳述。火災於2025 年12 月26 日發 8 生,合安於2026 年1 月6 日,即係事後一個幾月獲土地審裁處委任宏福苑業主立案法 9 團嘅獨立第三方管理人。土地審裁處於判案書中明顯指出,火災為屋苑管理帶領前所未 10 有嘅嚴重衝擊,災後重整工作艱鉅而且刻不容緩。法官考慮到合安具備專業知識、管理 11 經驗以及充足嘅人力物力資源,認為相對以自願性質同埋非全職出任管委會委員的業主 12 意願,合安更具備處理繁重同埋複雜災後重整工作嘅條件。合安係一家成立於1974 年 13 嘅持牌物業管理公司,…合安擁有一支由111 名持牌物業管理人組成嘅專業團隊,法官 14 喺判案書中肯定引入合安嘅專業團隊有利於為業主提供重要資訊同埋專業意見,使其能 15 夠就屋苑事宜作出充分諮詢同埋知情嘅選擇。根據香港法例第334 章建築物管理條例第 16 32 條,合安須履行管理委員會及其主席、秘書司賦嘅全部權力同埋職責,並處理大廈公 17 用部分同埋業主有共同權益嘅事務。管理人行事會以所有業主整體利益為依歸,就宏福 18 苑火災嘅善後事宜,正如土地審裁處頒發嘅判案書所指出,合安作為獨立第三方管理 19 人,需要處理火災後衍生涉及法團嘅法律、保安、工程、建築、財務等等嘅專業議題, 20 過程中合安尋求獨立嘅專業建議,由此產生嘅費用係由龔如心慈善管理有限公司嘅捐款 21 支持,業主無須承擔任何費用。自從被委任以來,合安一直秉承專業精神,致力履行其 22 法定職責,就宏福苑大維修工程承辦商提交嘅履約保證金事宜,合安已經由為該工程提 23 供履約保證金的銀行提取相關嘅款項,扣除銀行行政費及開支之後,金額為港幣 24 31,519,185 元。現時,該筆款項已經存放於宏福苑業主立案法團嘅銀行賬户裏邊。此 25 外,合安已經於多個地點派發市區重建局樓宇更新大行動2.0 嘅資助支票畀超過1000 26 多户合資格嘅業主,合安亦都委聘咗合資格承辦商同埋相關專業人員前往宏志閣進行現 27 場勘察,以評估公共設施現況並擬定修葺範圍。相關資料整理完成之後,合安將會向相 28 關業主公佈詳情。合安作為法庭委任嘅管理人,正系統地接受並接收前任管理公司置邦 29 興業有限公司移交嘅大量文件,其中包括一個容量為4TB 嘅硬碟。雖然合安喺掌握火災 30 發生前嘅實時資料方面存在客觀侷限,但我哋正動用專業資源全力審閲該等數據,竭誠 31 配合協助獨立委員會查明事實。於2026 年1 月15 日,合安以宏福苑業主立案法團管理 32 人身份接獲獨立委員會律師嘅要求,提供有關宏福苑火警同埋火勢迅速蔓延成因嘅45 項 33 查詢,包括涵蓋大廈配置、消防裝置及配備、樓宇維修工程施工等範疇。合安一直全力 34

Evidential Hearing in relation to fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po

A Court Reporting Transcript by Epiq 31

整理審閲並逐步提交文件,至今,合安已經提交咗超過100 份文件畀委員會參考,並將 1 繼續審閲同埋定期提供所需資料,以配合委員會嘅持續工作。合安代表立案法團支持委 2 員會就事件作出全面同埋公正嘅調查,以查明真相,並反對任何失實同埋欠缺事實根據 3 嘅指控。喺獨立委員會完成調查,並就火災嘅前因後果發表報告之後,合安將會視乎情 4 況採取適當行動,以維護業主立案法團嘅整體利益。合安對此次火災造成嘅人命傷亡同 5 埋財務損失深表哀悼同埋關注,並對受影響嘅業户致以誠意嘅慰問。合安作為法團管理 6 人將會恪守建築物管理條例所賦予管理人嘅法定責任。合安懇請獨立委員會、宏福苑各 7 業户、社會各界理解合安係資料掌握方面嘅客觀侷限,並衷心感謝各業户係過去一段時 8 間對合安嘅諒解同埋支持,亦都感謝公眾對宏福苑社羣嘅關注,合安將繼續以專業、審 9 慎同埋負責任的態度履行建築物管理條例嘅法定責任,妥善維護業主立案法團同埋全體 10 業主嘅共同權益。謹此致謝主席同埋各位委員。 11 陸啟康法官:唔該曬文大律師。咁我哋各方面想做口頭或陳述嘅涉事方已經做出咗口頭陳述啦, 12 係現階段係咪杜資深大律師我哋應該係傳召證人嘅時間? 13 杜淦堃資深大律師:主席,現階段我哋安排咗有關嘅證人來到委員會席前畀口頭證供。正如之前 14 所公佈,今天下午係有三位當時宏福苑嘅居民會嚟到畀口頭證供委員會嘅。喺佢哋、喺 15 我哋傳召佢之前有兩點想補充嘅啫。我哋留意到第一日開案陳詞嘅時候我哋提到有9 名 16 嘅外籍家庭傭工係火災中不幸喪生,我哋翻查番記錄,的的確確有9 名嘅外籍家庭傭工 17 同佢哋嘅僱主一齊遭遇不測,但其實有第10 位,係佢當時係自己喺一個單位裏面,所以 18 嗰總數應該係10 個。就呢一方面,我哋再一次對當時盡忠職守嘅各位外籍家庭傭工係呢 19 個大火中遭遇不幸感到難過。第二方面就係關於證人,今日下午同埋稍候會有多位宏福 20 苑嘅居民出嚟講述佢哋當時嘅情況,大家都會明白我哋唔能夠叫當時受影響嘅每一位居 21 民出嚟畀口供,再者有好多居民亦都表示唔想再憶述當時發生嘅事,呢個係絕對可以理 22 解嘅。我哋都想留意嘅就係,佢哋嚟到委員會席前作供其實對於我哋嘅工作係提供到重 23 大嘅幫助,喺我哋索取證據嘅過程,我哋係向所有受影響嘅居民係發出咗問卷,我哋喺 24 當中留意到有一啲嘅居民,其實佢哋嘅證供可能比較有代表性啦,或者有特別嘅地方, 25 所以我哋邀請咗有關嘅居民出嚟。佢哋出嚟再憶述當日所發生嘅事亦都好不容易,都佢 26 哋嚟講亦都可能造成某程度嘅壓力甚至乎係傷害嘅,所以我都希望呼籲一下在場或者喺 27 場館以外嘅傳媒朋友,我明白大家都好想可能去對佢哋進行一啲嘅採訪,但我都希望佢 28 哋離開場館嘅時候,大家可以尊重佢哋自己嘅意願,或者都可以藉着佢哋自己嘅意願留 29 小小空間畀佢哋,我哋想補充或者呼籲各位嘅事情係以上兩點。主席,除非你有其他嘅 30 指示,我哋想傳召第一位。 31 陸啟康法官:我諗你頭先所講嘅呼籲,我哋委員會會同意同埋作出同樣嘅呼籲。咁就係大家希望 32 今次即係有呢批嘅證人,其實佢哋都係災民,咁其實佢哋因為今次呢個嘅大火,要佢哋 33 今次出嚟作供亦都唔係一個容易嘅事。咁我希望各位傳媒朋友喺採訪嘅時間,可能需要 34

Evidential Hearing in relation to fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po

A Court Reporting Transcript by Epiq 32

敏感一啲,同埋尊重佢哋嘅一啲嘅情況。咁希望各位,我明白大家對佢哋係會有一啲, 1 即係可能係想去採訪嘅,但我都希望各位真係敏感少少。正如我所講,今次呢啲獨立調 2 查真係唔係一個容易嘅事,因為我哋好多人都會因為今次嘅事件即係會有一啲好痛嘅感 3 覺,情緒一定有。但我好希望大家都會係、真係公正公平,同埋咧係不偏不倚,去客觀 4 對待每一樣嘢。咁我希望各位傳媒,特別係一陣間完咗之後採訪方面,大家需要敏感少 5 少。 6 杜淦堃資深大律師:多謝主席,主席,我哋第一位證人係梁浩軒先生。 7

8 14 時28 分宏福苑居民梁浩軒先生開始作供 9

10 杜淦堃資深大律師:梁先生,你面前有個簡短嘅誓詞,麻煩你讀出嚟,或者聲明。 11 梁先生:本人梁浩軒聲明,本人所作啲證供盡本人之所知所悉同埋所信,均屬真實。 12 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔該曬你梁先生,你可以坐低 13 陸啟康法官:梁先生,好多謝你今日出嚟畀證供。 14 杜淦堃資深大律師:梁先生,資料顯示你係大火當日你是居住喺宏盛閣303 室嘅,係咪? 15 梁先生:係。 16 杜淦堃資深大律師:除咗你之外,居住喺該單位嘅仲有邊一位屋企人呢? 17 梁先生:仲有我嘅媽媽,兩個嘅啫。 18 杜淦堃資深大律師:想問一問你喺大火當日,當時你第一次知道發生火警嘅時候,你身處喺邊度 19 咧?同埋你點到底係有火警嘅? 20 梁先生:當我確實知道有火警嘅時候其實我喺我間房嘅,時間應該係3 點10 分左右嘅時間,係 21 由呢個、係由呢個有親戚嘅WhatsApp Group 嗰度,同埋唔同人都有Send 啲信息,就知 22 道原來宏福苑嗰陣時係有火災嘅。 23 杜淦堃資深大律師:當時你第一個反應係點咧?你做咗啲乜嘢咧?知道有火災之後。 24 梁先生:我當時其實有試過望番出去窗外面啦,睇嚇有冇哋嘢咁樣。因為其實喺確實知道有火警 25 之前咧,我已經係聽到有啲雜物跌落嚟嘅聲㗎喇,但係其實我好早,已經可能係3 點 26 前,即係可能2 點50 幾分我都有聽到嘅。但是因為嗰陣時候我望向嗰個位唔係最初火 27 場發生嘅位置啦,所以我只係聽到啲聲音,而我見唔到任何嘅工人嘅走動啊,又或者可 28 能係警車啊,乜都冇嘅,淨係聽到一啲聲音嘅啫。而其實我嗰日本身都係喺屋企休息, 29 因為我病咗啦,唔舒服嘅,所以我都冇諗咁多,都係以為係工人係可能係佢整跌咗啲嘢 30 啊咁樣。但是當我知道原來係火警嘅時候咧,我係有嘗試過喺網上揾啲資料啦,亦都揾 31 到,因為嗰時候仍然係可以上到網,有電嘅。但係當我試去電視嗰度,睇下有冇、開電 32 視有冇新聞嘅時候咧都已經冇咗電視信號㗎喇,所以除咗網絡之外,我就只可以靠… 33 Sorry,除了我可能開窗淨係聽到聲,因為嗰陣時仲未聞到有味嘅。之外咧我就可以靠 34

Evidential Hearing in relation to fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po

A Court Reporting Transcript by Epiq 33

網上知道火警的資訊咁樣。 1 杜淦堃資深大律師:你可唔可以講到咧你嘗試打開電視,開唔到電視嗰陣大概係幾多點啊? 2 梁先生:應該係3 點半左右㗎喇。 3 杜淦堃資深大律師:你當時3 點半左右嘅時候都係睇唔到出邊有任何嘅情況,係咪? 4 梁先生:淨係聽到呢個聲音,同埋主要都係聲音為主嘅啫,係未聞到有任何燒焦嘅味道嘅,嗰陣 5 時。 6 杜淦堃資深大律師:而你3 點半聽到嗰啲聲音,正如你頭先所進,到係只係雜物跌落嚟嘅聲音, 7 係咪? 8 梁先生:係,冇錯。 9 杜淦堃資深大律師:好啦,我想問下你,咁你當時或者稍候嘅時間有冇聽到火警鐘或者救火車嘅 10 聲音? 11 梁先生:完全冇火警鐘嘅聲音嘅。事實上我、當我知道有火警嘅時候我都曾經、好似頭先提過, 12 我曾經嘗試再開多少少,因為我本身開咗啲窗透氣嘅,但係我開多啲,我係聽到有啲車 13 聲嘅。但因為當下其實屋企人都有提我話,你駛唔駛離開落去睇下?而當時我點解冇選 14 擇落去嘅原因就係,我嗰陣時係知道樓下嘅垃圾站,即係我棟樓對出嘅垃圾站,同埋隔 15 離係宏昌,係咪宏昌?係宏昌閣火燭嘅啫,咁我嗰下就覺得咁其實我落去對件事冇乜特 16 別幫助㗎嘛,所以我就選擇留喺屋企,睇下有冇更加多的資訊再作判斷咁樣。 17 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁你係幾耐之後決定離開你嘅單位? 18 梁先生:咁嗰陣時我離開咗…即係我係間房啦,稍尾我去咗大廳嗰度去做少少嘢咁樣。咁期間我 19 聽過出邊,即係大門口出邊有啲噪音咁樣啦,咁我屋企嘅門口喺有個電子嘅貓眼嘅,咁 20 我扲開嚟睇下,就見到應該係一對夫婦來嘅,係咪同層我就唔確定啦。佢就動過嗰消防 21 喉轆,亦都有拉過,疑似嘗試去救水嘅,去救火嘅,但我就見不到有任何嘅水啦,因為 22 正常來講應該可能有啲水滴落嚟,或者可能條喉會脹咗,比較…唔會軟賴賴咁樣嘅,但 23 係佢就冇。而收尾佢就過咗一陣喇,佢哋就好有公德心咁樣將佢收番好,然後就走咗 24 啦。我嗰陣時都有諗下係咪要走啦,然後我有試下開咗我客廳嘅窗,咁樣嗰陣時我就聞 25 到有味㗎喇,應該約莫4 點左右,已經係。咁然後我見到、我我聞到有味,我就再加上 26 知道有火災,我當時其實已經準備執定啲逃生要用嘅物品,咁樣準備離開嘅,咁期間亦 27 都有留意下睇下出邊有冇煙啦。正當我準備執好啲嘢走嗰時候咧,我就見到,透過嘅貓 28 眼見到開始有啲暗,見到有啲煙咁樣飄緊過嚟,當下我就知道其實已經唔可以再等了, 29 因為可能就已經再走不到,我就即係拎到我拎到嘅嘢,連件衫都冇拎,即係拎咗最重 30 要,即係嗰啲求生三寶嗰啲之外咧,跟住我就開門嘅時候就已經準備離開,其實嗰下已 31 經係、啲煙開始攻到我嘅上半身㗎喇,咁我就掩住嗰毛巾,咁樣鎖門之後就跑落去,即 32 係隔離嘅逃生樓梯嗰度跑落去大堂。 33 杜淦堃資深大律師:喺你繼續講之前,你可唔可以準確咁話到畀我哋知,你離開你單位嗰時候大 34

Evidential Hearing in relation to fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po

A Court Reporting Transcript by Epiq 34

概係幾多點? 1 梁先生:嗰陣時應該已經係4 點十幾分㗎喇。 2 杜淦堃資深大律師:你點知道、記得咁清楚呢個時間? 3 梁先生:因為我事後有、都有再睇番啲通話記錄,咁我離開咗嘅時候我有即刻通知屋企人,其實 4 嗰陣時已經係4 點20…唔好意思,我睇一睇番嗰個通話記錄,就係4 點嘅23 分,嗰陣 5 時打畀屋企人就通知平安咁樣嘅。 6 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想你憶述番你走出你嘅屋企外面,而去到電梯大堂,直至到你離開你棟大 7 廈,你可不可以解釋畀我哋聽當時嘅情況係咁樣咧? 8 梁先生:當我離開咗、即係離開去到走廊嘅時候已經有煙啦,咁我就選擇行樓梯去走嘅。咁亦都 9 好好彩嘅,嗰陣時嘅後樓梯,因為我知道嗰樓梯係直通大堂嘅,咁嗰陣時嗰樓梯都係冇 10 煙,所以我就選擇咗係個樓梯度跑落去。咁當我跑到落去地下大堂嘅時候,我都留意到 11 其實係好暗㗎喇,應該就已經冇咗燈嘅,咁我就打算行出去睇一睇情況先,咁我唔係即 12 刻走咗嘅,我行出去就見到地下已經有一攤,消防已經噴咗啲水,就有一堆黑色嘅水堆 13 係嗰度,嗰陣時就諗一諗,部署下係跑番上去屋企等,定係係樓下大堂嗰度等消防員過 14 來。咁我就望一望,見到地下大堂出去左手邊有泊單車嘅地方,我就已經見到係火光紅 15 紅㗎喇,已經冇可能喺嗰度走到嘅。咁我就行番入去嗰大堂,可能諗咗十幾秒左右,咁 16 我最尾就決定就係沿番嗰個大堂嗰度跑番出去公園嗰度去逃生。咁當我跑出去嗰陣時我 17 就已經見到有、嗰邊應該係7、8 號單位,已經有啲棚網已經跌緊落嚟,我就掩住個頭, 18 最尾就喺警察嘅指示之下跑去一個安全嘅地方。 19 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想請問下你,就係當時你走到出去大堂,到你再走到出去,你頭先指安全 20 嘅地方,嗰個相隔咗大概幾耐啊? 21 梁先生:應該都係2、3 分鐘左右嘅啫。 22 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白,好喇,你啱啱講咗當日發生嘅經過。我想你講一講喺當日大火之前, 23 你有冇擔心過大廈維修工程會造成一啲任何嘅危險,或者你有冇向任何人投訴過嘅? 24 梁先生:咁其實我哋,唔單止我啦,我同埋屋企人都有問過,因為有陣時、因為本身係封閉㗎 25 嘛,但是我哋想可能想透一透氣咁樣,有陣時會開一開窗。屋企人都留意到嗰啲窗已經 26 畀發泡膠覆蓋住嘅。有時可能我番到嚟嘅時間都會機會聞到一啲煙味,雖然我哋就冇親 27 自話去做一個投訴,但我哋都有同番可能其他街坊講過,其實係咪有工人係度食煙?因 28 為正常可能我哋居民就算真係要食煙,都唔會特登開住個窗咁樣將啲煙噴出去咁樣㗎 29 嘛,所以我哋都有留意過係咪真係有人食煙呢件事?但係我、即係據我所知啦,我自己 30 或者我嘅屋企人就冇因為呢件事去特登可能去投訴過咁樣嘅。 31 杜淦堃資深大律師:另外一方面,睇下你可唔可以幫到我哋,你提到嗰窗係被髮泡膠封咗嘅,你 32 記唔記得呢啲嗰單位幾時開始係被髮泡膠封窗嘅? 33 梁先生:我哋嗰座係最早開始搭棚架嗰兩座嚟嘅,所以嗰陣時搭完棚架之後,因為有段時間其實 34

Evidential Hearing in relation to fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po

A Court Reporting Transcript by Epiq 35

我哋就唔係喺度住,我哋(English Spoken)順便就裝修咗嘅,所以我記得番嚟嘅時候 1 就已經有封咗窗呢件事㗎喇,但實際嘅日期我就唔可以,我就唔清楚喇。 2 杜淦堃資深大律師:嗯,會唔會講到你係幾時搬番去嗰單位嗰度,大概? 3 梁先生:就係1 月嘅時候,2025 年1 月嘅時候。 4 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁你係幾時搬離你嘅單位? 5 梁先生:嗰個應該係啱啱好11 月左右,因為我們做裝修係用咗3 個月嘅。 6 杜淦堃資深大律師:所以你就係、應該如果聽你咁講,係2024 年11 月你就搬離咗呢啲嘅單位, 7 2025 年1 月返到去,當時嗰個窗就封咗嘅? 8 梁先生:大約係。 9 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白,你有冇其他嘅嘢想同、用呢個機會同委員會講? 10 梁先生:我都想趁呢個機會咁簡單講一講,就可能、就未必係、真同火嘅本身有關。可能之後啲 11 一啲辛路歷程啦。咁自從嗰火災發生咗之後,咁我其實都係、一路都喺宏福苑居住同埋 12 長大。咁喺火災發生之後,我相信在場嘅一啲居民其實都有諗過點解係我哋?明明即係 13 有好多時候,我哋有做過,好多人都有投訴過,雖然我自己親自冇啦。但係我哋都留意 14 到有人去食煙啦,或者可能嗰陣時喺大維修之前,啱啱開始話要做呢件嘢嘅時候,其實 15 都有人關注我哋呢個3 億嘅維修,點解要揀呢個3 億嘅一個計劃啦?其實本人都係因為 16 嗰陣時候知道要做呢件事,所以先處理番法律上嘅文件,都係為咗攞番一個資助。所以 17 其實之前我哋一路都係冇辦法喺業主大會嗰度投票啦,某種程度上來講我哋俗稱“硬 18 食”嘅呢一個,其實係。可能其他有啲,或者對我哋嚟講係啦。咁我哋大家本身都可能 19 只係、尤其係我們嗰座預計3 月,即係可能呢個時候就已經完成曬大部分嘅一個工程, 20 因為開始拆棚網,可以重見天日去望番出邊心目中嘅家園吖,或者同街坊一齊玩笑,一 21 齊去玩,一齊去分享自己嘅一個生活。但係就因為呢件事啦,我唔理佢究竟係咩原因, 22 總之火災之後大家就各散東西,有啲可能、可能之前見過嘅街坊都未必之後再生活係嗰 23 度,再有交集咁樣。咁其實我哋曾經有好多機會可能去改變呢個事實,但係奈何呢件事 24 已經發生咗喇,亦都冇辦法再改變。所以雖然唔係好關呢件事,但我希望大家真係珍惜 25 自己眼前人,唔好令自己有任何後悔嘅事。 26 杜淦堃資深大律師:多謝你,梁先生,主席,我哋冇其他嘅問題。 27 陸啟康法官:好多謝梁先生,我想澄清一個問題,我想問喺火災嗰日,其實你哋個窗係咪都仲係 28 封住嘅? 29 梁先生:係啊,我只不過係因為嗰日我頭先講了我病咗,所以我開了小小窗去透一透氣,都係因 30 為呢個原因,我先有留意到係有呢一個物品跌落嚟嘅聲音啦。只不過我當時冇特登去留 31 意到,因為始終我嗰個單位望出去嘅方向係完全睇唔到任何火災嘅嗰個位置嘅,淨係聽 32 到聲音嘅啫。 33 歐陽伯權博士:唔該主席,多謝梁生你畀咗啲消息我哋。頭先你提到咧喺呢個貓眼嗰度你見到有 34

Evidential Hearing in relation to fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po

A Court Reporting Transcript by Epiq 36

兩個人士係好似嘗試救火,嗰個時間你有冇聞到煙味或者見到一啲火嘅機會呢? 1 梁先生:即係來講透過貓眼嘅時候? 2 歐陽伯權博士:係。 3 梁先生:冇嘅,我淨係見到一男一女係試過鬱過個喉轆,咁拉到過去電梯大堂、即係我哋嘅電梯 4 嗰邊,但是我就冇見到有任何火光嘅。 5 歐陽伯權博士:唔該曬你,唔該,唔該主席。 6 陸啟康法官:我想問下其他涉事方,有冇任何涉事方想提問?冇。 7 杜淦堃資深大律師:梁先生,多謝你。 8 陸啟康法官:好多謝你今日嚟到,你嘅證供一定幫到我哋去了解呢個事情嘅發生,多謝你。 9

10 14 時43 分宏福苑居民證人梁浩軒先生作供完畢 11 14 時43 分宏福苑居民證人謝玉華女士開始作供 12

13 杜淦堃資深大律師:主席,下一位證人係謝玉華小姐。 14 謝女士:你好。 15 杜淦堃資深大律師:謝小姐,我都麻煩企起身讀一讀頭先你見到上一位證人讀嗰個聲明出嚟吖。 16 謝女士:本人謝玉華聲明,本人所作之證供盡本人所知、所悉及所信,均屬真實。 17 陸啟康法官:謝女士,好多謝你嚟到法庭嗰度作供。 18 杜淦堃資深大律師:謝小姐,資料顯示你嘅屋企喺宏昌閣204 號單位? 19 謝女士:係。 20 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋嘅證據顯示,你嘅單位同我哋懷疑火警首先發生嘅地方係比較近嘅,所 21 以就呢方面,你嘅證供係會對我哋非常之有用。想你首先講一講,當然你係嗰度嘅、你 22 住喺嗰個單位,除咗你之外,有冇其他家人同住? 23 謝女士:我同我先生都係住喺嗰度。 24 杜淦堃資深大律師:你住咗喺宏福苑幾多年啊? 25 謝女士:十幾年。 26 杜淦堃資深大律師:喺講當日之前,不如我哋講一講大維修。 27 謝女士:好。 28 杜淦堃資深大律師:嗰過程裏邊。喺大維修過程裏面有冇、你而家記唔記得你有冇啲咩觀察,令 29 到你對火警嘅可能性或者火警嘅風險會有一啲記憶啊,或者你做過乜嘢投訴?我都想你 30 講一講畀委員會聽。 31 謝女士:我記得佢哋一開始搭棚架嘅時候啦,咁我已經、曾經影到有啲工人喺出面食煙啦,其實 32 當其時都會擔心會唔會火燭咧?因為除咗佢哋食煙之外,因為我本身對煙味好敏感嘅, 33 咁我都經常聞到嗰單位裏邊有煙味。咁我冇作出投訴,但係我知道好多嘅街坊都有去投 34

Evidential Hearing in relation to fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po

A Court Reporting Transcript by Epiq 37

訴嘅,呢一個。咁其次就係到搭棚之後發泡膠封窗,咁發泡膠封窗咧我記得我當其時睇 1 住嗰啲工人姐姐去做嗰個封窗嘅過程咧,佢哋將嗰發泡膠黐咗係窗上邊之後咧,佢哋就 2 會跟住個窗嘅框戒咗多餘嘅部分出嚟。咁多餘嘅部分咧就咁掟咗係側邊。之後我都曾經 3 試過開窗,因為嗰陣時仲可以開窗,我開窗就望一望,就發現出面係好多垃圾吖,嗰啲 4 發泡膠嗰啲戒淨番落嚟啊,或者其他好多垃圾,總之就我事後好少開窗嘅,因為出邊嘅 5 環境基本上唔令到可以開窗,因為太惡劣啦。 6 杜淦堃資深大律師:你單位望出去,你應該望到你嘅樓下104、105 單位出邊有一個天井嘅平 7 台,係咪? 8 謝女士:係。 9 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想問下,係封窗之前你有冇留意到嗰個平台嘅情況? 10 謝女士:封窗之前,其實由搭棚開始咧已經係好多垃圾㗎喇。因為我印象中封窗,我哋…佢好似 11 仲有一個叫做戒窗邊,因為佢起紙皮石嘅過程,之前係做一個戒窗邊嘅工序。咁總之我 12 自己都周不時會影低出邊嘅情況,因為我覺得出邊由工程開始第一日就已經好多垃圾喺 13 棚架出面,各樣咁樣囉。 14 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋頭先所講嘅嗰個天井位,你頭先講過你留意到有垃圾啦。 15 謝女士:係。 16 杜淦堃資深大律師:你有冇見到嗰度譬如有啲工人喺嗰個位出現咧? 17 謝女士:之前未封窗嘅時候我會見到嘅,因為見到佢哋喺棚度做嘢,係啦,都會見到佢哋係出 18 邊。咁我有裝(音)過嘅,但都係同我嘅屋其他範圍一樣都係好多垃圾咁樣囉。 19 杜淦堃資深大律師:你自己有冇見過工人食煙啊? 20 謝女士:有。 21 杜淦堃資深大律師:喺邊度食煙? 22 謝女士:搭緊棚嘅時候。 23 杜淦堃資深大律師:你可唔可以講到呢個係咪一個常見嘅情況? 24 謝女士:係。 25 杜淦堃資深大律師:你可唔可以話到畀我哋知咧,嗱我頭先問到喺你個窗封之前你對於嗰個天井 26 嘅觀察。 27 謝女士:嗯。 28 杜淦堃資深大律師:你講唔講到你嘅單位個窗係大概幾時封咗㗎? 29 謝女士:我睇一睇手機。我睇番應該係2024 年9 月30 號左右嘅時間。 30 杜淦堃資深大律師:點解你咁肯定係嗰日? 31 謝女士:因為咧,事發嘅前幾日啦,佢哋係進行緊一個戒窗邊嘅工程。咁當其時咧,佢做緊戒窗 32 邊嘅時候咧,我冇諗過佢哋做嘅時候我成間屋係畀粉塵入曬嚟,煙霧瀰漫,咁當其時我 33 唔知發生乜嘢事,冇諗過做大維修係會咁樣嘅,我就即刻打電話落管理處,咁當其時有 34

Evidential Hearing in relation to fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po

A Court Reporting Transcript by Epiq 38

工人上來,就話叫我落樓下唞,因為我間屋太大煙喇,咁樣。咁但係我冇辦法,因為我 1 有兩隻貓,好老嘅,我冇辦法帶埋佢哋一起,我就唯有留喺單位度。之後啲粉塵開始散 2 咗嘅時候,其實全間屋摸落去所有嘢都係塵嚟嘅。咁之後就到佢哋封、戒嗰個風 3 (English Spoken)黐窗,自從嗰一次嘅事件發生,我就每一次有啲乜嘢我都有影住相 4 啊、咁樣會記錄番咁個樣。 5 杜淦堃資深大律師:所以你而家嘅記錄話到畀你知,你居住嘅單位喺2024 年9 月30 號咧就畀嗰 6 啲風(English Spoken)黐實咗窗門,就見唔到出邊了? 7 謝女士:嗯,因為9 月30 號影低嘅相咧係風(English Spoken)黐完之後戒剩番落嚟,係我嗰 8 單位個窗出邊,咁我覺得呢個係唔好嘅,唔係好理想囉,因為咁多垃圾同埋嗰啲風 9 (English Spoken),我唔知會不會着火啊嗰樣嘢。 10 杜淦堃資深大律師:嗰啲風(English Spoken)黐埋住呢嘅窗,一路黐到幾時啊?直至到火警當 11 日仲係咪黐住? 12 謝女士:火警當時咧嘅前一兩個星期,我唔係好印象記得,但我肯定嘅就係我嘅單位有一半係冇 13 畀風(English Spoken)黐住嘅。本來係全部都黐住嘅,但我似聽番話,我哋嗰座佢哋 14 開始要求我哋會裝番房部冷氣,而將廳、客廳部冷氣拆落嚟。咁所以咧,喺火燭之前嗰 15 幾個禮拜咧曾經進行有洗牆嘅工序咁樣。咁與此同時咧,就大概喺嗰啲時間啦,我就見 16 到我嗰間屋由03 單位開始嗰幅牆,嗰堆窗咧,我客廳嘅窗啦,細房嘅窗啦,主人房嘅冷 17 氣機下面嘅窗都冇畀風(English Spoken)黐住嘅,係喇。但係其餘廚房啦、廁所啦, 18 同埋主人房向着火位置嗰邊嘅窗咧都依然畀風(English Spoken)黐住嘅。 19 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白,即係靠近天井位嗰啲窗係係仍然有風(English Spoken)嘅? 20 謝女士:係。 21 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔該曬你。我想問一問你火警當日嘅經過。 22 謝女士:係。 23 杜淦堃資深大律師:你當時係身處喺你嘅單位裏邊啦,係咪? 24 謝女士:係。 25 杜淦堃資深大律師:你係乜嘢時候覺得出現咗問題,或者覺得係可能會有危險嘅? 26 謝女士:我當其時咧,我嗰日我記得我唔舒服,我留咗喺屋企。咁我2 點鐘我已經喺廚房嘅位置 27 㗎喇。咁嗰日我想洗衫啊,我記得,但因為咧我廚房嘅位置咧每一日都會好似山泥傾瀉 28 咁嘅聲嘅,日日都會有嗰啲嘢冧落嚟嗰啲聲嘅。因為我洗衫就要用乾衣機,我嘅乾衣機 29 嘅喉管就對住嘅窗出邊。所以我聽到呢啲冧落嚟嘅山泥聲咧我就唔敢開乾衣機,驚啲塵 30 入曬嚟。咁我當日咧我喺廚房等咗好耐,諗住睇下佢哋會不會停啦,即係唔做我呢邊 31 啦。咁等咗冇耐咧,我就聽到出面好嘈嘅,我記得嗰一日,同平時唔同。平時咧如果工 32 人佢哋傾計啊,係棚架咧我哋會聽到講,佢哋有時會好大聲講嘢,但我嗰日我聽到有一 33 堆人感覺係喺我廚房天井下面嘅嗰個位置,但我就聽唔到講乜嘢,我覺得係、我可能覺 34

Evidential Hearing in relation to fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po

A Court Reporting Transcript by Epiq 39

得可能有工程要做,(English Spoken),我都沒留意,總之隱約聽到一堆人好嘈吵咁 1 樣啦。 2 杜淦堃資深大律師:嗰個嘈吵嗰個時間大概係幾多點? 3 謝女士:兩點幾,2 點半前,係喇。咁直到我覺得都唔使洗衫嘅喇,因為都不停聽到嗰啲冧山泥 4 聲咁樣。咁我就衝咗杯中藥,去咗客廳度,突然間就聽到廚房好大聲,梆一聲,我一聽 5 到嘅時候我就即刻衝去廚房度睇啦。我望一望嘅時候我就發現我嘅廚房好多煙咁樣衝入 6 嚟。咁我當其時嗰一刻並未意識到係火燭嘅,因為之前曾經啲粉塵咁樣入嚟我間屋咧, 7 我以為啊,可能又、又一次咁樣啦。咁我即時將廚房門閂咗佢,然之後我就打電話去管 8 理處,我就問管理處出邊做緊啲乜嘢工程?我而家成個廚房出曬煙。管理處就答我: 9 “我哋都唔知,我哋揾人上嚟睇啦,你等我哋一陣啦。”咁我就係間屋度等。當我等嘅 10 時候咧,我就突然間覺得,我都要拍低佢,因為我要畀宏業嗰邊知道我個單位又一次咁 11 樣喇。咁我拍低佢嘅情況嘅時候咧我就覺得有小小…因為我嗰日我見到咁嘅情況,我聞 12 唔到味,所以我冇意識過係火燭,我仲喺度拍。咁拍完之後咧我就見到點解啲煙係向上 13 嘅咧?因為我嘅認知粉塵可能係向下沉啦,咁我就覺得好似有啲唔尋常,但都未意識到 14 火燭嘅,我仲、我仲開始咳啦,咁諗諗下唔好喇,不如打開大木門散一散,因為成間屋 15 都密不透風。咁就打開道門,當我打開個門探個頭出去望一望嘅時候,我都仲覺得有少 16 少濛濛地哦,死喇,係咪我單位啲塵搞到走廊都污糟埋添?唔好意思咁樣啦。我就繼續 17 係個單位度等,等管理人,因為佢哋話有人上來。咁我等等下,突然間聽到嗰走廊有個 18 好微弱嘅聲,但我聽到佢好急速,喺度敲,敲好細弱咁樣(證人模擬急促嘅敲擊聲), 19 然之後就“火燭,快啲走啊”咁樣,我就即刻望一望,行去走廊嗰度望一望啦,我就見 20 到有一個管理員嘅身影走咗。當其時我個人仲喺度諗“火燭?應該唔會卦?因為警鐘冇 21 響。”咁我就諗,應該唔會火燭卦?咁我就打畀我先生,我同佢講好似有火燭哦!咁佢 22 就話,咁你落去睇下啦”咁樣。咁我就即刻將我兩隻貓擺咗落去嗰籠度,咁我就孭住個 23 袋,我就着咗對鞋就走啦。走之前因為我知我隔離嗰鄰居有個媽咪同埋兩個小朋友喺度 24 嘅,平時,咁我就…咁叫埋佢哋一起啦,但係我聽咗一陣就冇聲,咁我諗住佢哋未放學 25 啦,咁樣。我就捧起個籠走喇,但因為我捧起個籠嘅時候就冇手拍門,所以我唔可以叫 26 我啲鄰居。咁我一路行,經過…Sorry。我經過1 號、2 號單位,我見到2 號單位個鄰居 27 開咗少少門,我同佢講“好似話火燭,快啲落去睇下。”其實當其時我嘅心態係冇諗過 28 咁大件事,純粹係落去睇下乜嘢事嘅啫。咁我經過𨋢,跟住就到7 號、8 號單位,我見 29 到8 號單位,我知道婆婆同埋工人當其時喺屋企,因為我睇到佢哋冇閂鐵閘,同埋佢哋 30 嘅拖鞋都係門口,但因為我捧住個籠,我冇辦法拍佢哋。同埋當其時我嘅意識係覺得應 31 該唔係咁大件事嘅啫,落去睇下,我好快可以,就算有啲乜嘢我都可以上嚟叫佢哋嘅。 32 咁我就落樓梯,當我落樓梯落到1 樓嘅時候我就見到有個婆婆佢就同我講,佢話…我見 33 到佢有啲唔知行好定唔行好。咁我就話,當其時已經有啲煙㗎喇,我就問嗰婆婆,我就 34

Evidential Hearing in relation to fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po

A Court Reporting Transcript by Epiq 40

話好似話火燭哦!佢就話“係囉,好似聽到火燭哦。”我就同佢講話,不如你同我一齊 1 落去睇下乜嘢事啦。”咁樣,我就拉住佢同我一起行。當我係1 樓落去宏昌閣地下嗰個 2 樓梯嘅時候,我先知道原來當日嘅火勢已經好大,因為喺個窗出面已經見到好大、好大 3 嘅火,直頭係成個環境都係火,好多煙咁樣湧入嚟,跟住個牆好熱,我根本冇辦法可以 4 係嗰個樓梯嘅正中咁樣行,都需要偏埋一邊,咁我就帶住婆婆快快趣咁樣行落去。行到 5 落去嗰大堂、宏昌閣大堂嘅時候冇人嘅,成個過程都係冇人嘅,得我同婆婆嘅啫。咁落 6 到去宏昌閣大堂我就帶住婆婆即刻衝出嚟啦,咁嗰一刻我已經意識到大件事喇,因為冇 7 人知,成個過程得我同婆婆,成個走廊、各樣嘢、所有嘢都某人,而出面嘅火原來係咁 8 大火。咁我就即刻諗我要放低兩隻貓衝上去叫其他鄰居。咁當我同婆婆咧一離開咗嗰個 9 宏昌閣搭𨋢嗰個大堂出邊之後,當其時嗰棚架嗰個棚網已經燒到好似啲火球咁樣,係咁 10 跌落嚟。咁我就捧住嗰貓籠同婆婆講“我哋要快啲走啦,因為我驚嗰棚會冧。我就即刻 11 帶住佢、即刻行咗去前邊宏業嗰個辦公室,臨時嗰棟,嗰度有個公園。當其時我係好 12 急,我好想快啲擺低佢哋之後,我要即刻衝上去,因為我見到我啲鄰居全部仲喺上面, 13 而且成個過程冇任何人去走嘅。但係我一回望嘅時候,已經見到成幢宏昌閣出曬煙,個 14 天台好似嗰火爐咁樣,我見到嗰、我衝出嚟嗰個大堂已經有好多煙衝出嚟,我亦都冇辦 15 法再行番入去,嗰陣時我已經呆咗,企喺嗰公園度。因為我已經做唔到任何,淨係知道 16 啲鄰居繼續喺上邊,係喇。咁之後開始見到消防員嚟到啦,消防員嚟到,起初其實都唔 17 係話好快,因為可能始終望落去,我哋個邨一入去對住宏昌閣咧,其實淨係見到天台嗰 18 堆火。過火源應該係我們後邊吐露港嗰邊。所以成幢大廈基本上係出曬黑煙,上面有個 19 火爐咁樣。咁後尾就見到一啲消防員開始好快咁樣跑拉喉啊咁樣,但因為我當時需要行 20 遠小,希望冇住嗰消防員做嘢,當其時個心係希望可以儘快…因為其實嗰陣時冇警鐘, 21 有好多人都唔知道,成幢大廈冇人走,我已經意識到個情況會好差。跟住喺公園仲撞到 22 一個媽媽衝過來哭住同我講,佢就係我隔離屋個媽媽,佢同我講佢先生仲喺屋企訓緊 23 覺。我當其時好自責,因為我覺得我上唔番去救佢哋,我知道佢哋全部人都係屋企,但 24 是我真係冇諗過係咁嚴重。咁之後咧我就一路睇住、喺公園嗰度睇住場火燒,但我意識 25 到咧當其時啲棚網不斷燒跌落嚟,因為佢仲着緊火嘅,我見到突然間一陣風吹,陣風吹 26 嘅時候列就見到佢黐住咗喺宏盛、宏盛嘅棚網嗰度,我就見到宏盛嘅棚網有一點火開始 27 着喇,嗰一刻我就突然諗起我朋友佢老爺奶奶住係宏盛,我就即刻打畀佢,同佢講,你 28 快啲叫你老爺奶奶走,我覺得會着火嘅。佢就打畀佢老爺奶奶通知佢哋,最後我知道佢 29 老爺奶奶係走到嘅,但係我只能夠睇住場火一路喺度燒。 30 杜淦堃資深大律師:謝小姐,我想你講番畀我哋聽,你頭先講到你嗰窗廚房嗰度,你聽到一聲巨 31 響。你廚房個窗嗰陣係開定係閂埋? 32 謝女士:閂住嘅。 33 杜淦堃資深大律師:閂住嘅? 34

Evidential Hearing in relation to fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po

A Court Reporting Transcript by Epiq 41

謝女士:同埋我除咗閂住之外咧,因為嗰個粉塵事件,我仲將、封埋嗰啲皺紋膠紙喺嗰啲窗嗰 1 度。 2 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想問你,你見到廚房好大煙嘅時候,你有冇留意窗嘅狀況?當時。 3 謝女士:冇,因為我見到佢突然梆一聲,咁大煙入嚟,我已經…當其時我唔諗過係煙,我係諗係 4 粉塵。所以我就即係閂住嗰廚房門,就咁樣望一望我就行遠哋,因為我上次吸咗粉塵之 5 後,我咳得好犀利,所以我就…係喇。 6 杜淦堃資深大律師:另外,你可唔可以話畀我哋知,你離開你嘅單位嘅時候應該係幾多點? 7 謝女士:我2 點51 分打電話去管理處,2 點59 分、2 點53 分喺屋企拍咗條片,2 點59 分打電話 8 畀我先生,同佢講火燭,跟住我就離開。我到公園嘅時候再影低宏盛有啲火光,當其時 9 喺3 點02 分,咁我應該大概3 點鐘左右落到公園啦,我估計。 10 杜淦堃資深大律師:換句話講,我想確認清楚就係你見到個棚網着火,你頭先講飄去宏盛,嗰個 11 時間你嘅記錄係3 點02 分,係咪? 12 謝女士:係,我睇多次。係3 點05 分。 13 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁你有冇留意到你見到嗰點火光,後來有冇令到宏盛閣嗰個火勢,直接蔓延 14 咗去宏盛? 15 謝女士:有,因為我見到…我冇再拍片之後,我見到啲風一吹,嗰啲火球就黐住喺個棚網,咁就 16 有其他地方就開始着喇,咁樣囉。 17 杜淦堃資深大律師:你頭先提過你逃走嗰陣,其實你去到單位外就已經見到有煙㗎喇,咁你一路 18 落樓梯,後樓梯有冇煙咧? 19 謝女士:有。 20 杜淦堃資深大律師:有煙。除咗頭先我問過你嘅事項之外,你有冇其他嘢想同委員會講? 21 謝女士:我希望我今次出嚟可以幫到我啲鄰居,因為我知道我自己嗰層其實除咗我一個人當日可 22 以自己離開之外,其他好多鄰居都…一係消防員救咗佢哋,一係就已經離開咗,所以我 23 都真係好希望今次可以將宏福苑今次呢個事件嘅真相可以出嚟囉。 24 杜淦堃資深大律師:主席,我哋冇其他問題。 25 陳健波議員:多謝主席,謝小姐,我諗首先多謝你作供啦,但我覺得你真係唔好怪責自己,因為 26 你已經盡咗力喇,我認為。我哋委員會曾經去過現場,我們去宏昌閣104、105 室,我 27 哋睇到成間屋係燒到熔熔爛爛嘅。但我哋理解當時嗰兩個户主咧就因為佢對住嘅天井咧 28 垃圾太多同埋太吵,所以佢哋搬、搬走咗嘅。咁即係話咧其實當時嗰個垃圾堆積或者嗰 29 個危險性好高嘅,我想問一問你本人有冇就呢件垃圾堆積,好易發生火警啦,向管理處 30 投訴咧? 31 謝女士:冇。 32 陳健波議員:你冇投訴,有冇咩原因啊?我諗又有味喇,又有人吵喇咁樣。 33 謝女士:因為其實都知道咧,不斷以嚟啲街坊都不停係度投訴㗎喇,所以我都冇特登為咗呢樣嘢 34

Evidential Hearing in relation to fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po

A Court Reporting Transcript by Epiq 42

再投訴。 1 陳健波議員:另外我想問,你有冇瞭解到,因為我哋覺得嗰度可能就係嗰起火地點,咁嗰度就我 2 哋留意到有一條梯可以上去嗰個天井畀工人休息、食煙,當然嗰度唔應該係咁,因為嗰 3 度有個閘嘅嘛,應該,但佢哋就喺果度做呢啲事啦,你有冇親眼見過或者聽到,某一個 4 時間就會非常之嘈啊、有煙味,有冇留意呢個特別嘅現象? 5 謝女士:其他個窗封咗基本上我睇唔到。 6 陳健波議員:即係唔會聞到,亦都唔會睇到? 7 謝女士:但是我知道佢哋基本上喺除咗你頭先講嘅位置,我哋宏昌閣下面有個單車位㗎嘛,單車 8 嘅位置都會搭咗畀佢哋作休息,都見到佢哋都會喺嗰度食煙咁樣囉。 9 陳健波議員:如果聽你咁講,食煙真係好普遍嘅哦,即係喺嗰個地盤食煙,喺嗰個工場食煙。我 10 冇第二啲問題,多謝你。 11 陸啟康法官:咁想請問有冇其他涉事方想提問?如果冇咧,就好多謝謝小姐你嚟畀證供,呢啲證 12 供對我哋呢件案,瞭解呢件案嘅案情亦都非常之有幫助。我亦都同陳委員一樣,即係唔 13 好太過責怪自己,有啲嘢、好多嘢只係一剎那嘅。咁希望、你今日上嚟已經好勇敢咁面 14 對呢件事,多謝你今日能夠親自出席,你嘅證供對我哋非常之重要,多謝。 15 杜淦堃資深大律師:多謝,你可以離開。 16 謝女士:唔該。 17

18 15 時10 分宏福苑居民證人謝玉華女士作供完畢 19 15 時10 分宏福苑居民證人高以蕾女士開始作供 20

21 杜淦堃資深大律師:主席,第三位證人係高以蕾小姐。高小姐,你好,麻煩你同頭先兩位證人一 22 樣,麻煩你企起身讀一讀有關嘅聲明。 23 高女士:本人高以蕾聲明,本人所作的啲證供盡本人所知、所悉及所信,均屬真實。 24 陸啟康法官:請坐吖,高女士。 25 杜淦堃資深大律師:高小姐,我哋知道你係宏昌閣2405 單位嘅居民,除咗你之外,仲有乜嘢屋 26 企人一齊住喺嗰個單位? 27 高女士:呢兩年幾都係我一個人主要住喺嗰單位度。 28 杜淦堃資深大律師:除咗你自己住喺嗰個單位,你仲有冇任何親戚係住喺宏福苑嘅? 29 高女士:我有父母係住喺另外一座。 30 杜淦堃資深大律師:佢哋住係邊座嘅? 31 高女士:宏志閣。 32 杜淦堃資深大律師:好,我知道火警嘅時候,你喺你嘅單位裏面,你可唔可以講一講,當時你係 33 做咗啲乜,以及你幾時發現有問題嘅? 34

Evidential Hearing in relation to fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po

A Court Reporting Transcript by Epiq 43

高女士:當時…因為我2 點零度就番到屋企喇,咁就開咗電視,咁就本身因為我係諗住、plan 咗 1 係3 點先出門口嘅,我諗住出去食啲嘢咁樣囉。咁就所以…當時我係開咗電視,喺電腦 2 度做緊啲嘢,係喇,對住電腦做緊自己嘢咁樣。咁咧坐坐下咧,我諗大概53 分度,我本 3 身衝咗杯嘢飲,咁就坐咗喺度,跟住嗰電視就… 4 杜淦堃資深大律師:係2 點53 分? 5 高女士:係,跟住個電視突然之間冇咗(English Spoken),但畫面係有嘅,係啦。跟住我冇諗 6 咁多,因為之前試過間唔中係冇(English Spoken)嘅。諗住可能過一陣間會有番啦, 7 跟住冇理到佢嘅,跟住就做自己嘢,但就開始聞到𤓓味,係喇。咁就聞到𤓓味我就…因 8 為嗰陣時我記得咧,因為每日大堂嗰度都黐住啲(English Spoken),即係每日會寫第 9 二日係邊層做緊工程嘅。我就記得嗰日就應該係21、22 樓大概嗰啲位置係做緊工程 10 嘅,我聞到𤓓味咧我就…本身我所有窗都封曬嘅,但因為日之前咧,打完風之後,我屋 11 企因為未鋪紙皮石就入水濕曬啦,我亦就落嗰宏業度,因為佢鑽穿咗我屋企幅牆,全部 12 都滲水嘅,我就落宏業度問佢哋,呢啲點樣跟進啊?咁跟住佢嗰陣時上門check,而所 13 以就開咗一個窗嘅,所以就有一個窗係開到嘅。咁我就係,我當時坐喺度係開咗條罅 14 嘅),因為要通風。就係廳,係後邊嗰個窗嗰度咧聞到𤓓味我就出去打開窗去望,咁就 15 向海嗰邊聽方向啦。咁我望出去聞到好大𤓓味,但係見唔到煙,見唔到火,係啦,跟住 16 我就覺得係佢哋燒焊嘅味,因為我覺得唔出奇嘅,於是我閂咗嗰窗,就坐番係電視前 17 邊。 18 杜淦堃資深大律師:你點解咁清楚記得你冇咗電視信號係2 點53 分? 19 高女士:因為我、我準備出門口啦,我本身plan 咗3 點鐘就落街嘅,大概呢個時間,係喇。同 20 埋我睇番即係我落到街,我影第一張同我走大概係呢個時段。 21 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係你推斷番? 22 高女士:係,大概係囉,咁樣。 23 杜淦堃資深大律師:你望出去,你啱啱描述咗你望出去嘅情況,咁跟住發生咩事咧? 24 高女士:我閂咗窗就…唔對路哦,𤓓味越來越勁。跟住就諗住咁啊,嗱嗱臨洗咗只杯,就諗住出 25 門口啦。咁跟住,其實我係行咗兩次出去,行咗第一次出去跟住冇嘢嘅,跟住再拎只杯 26 出去洗。因為本身咧,因為之前我都試過有粉塵入屋,同埋嗰日打風,我連抽油煙機中 27 間都塞咗一塊,枱布咁樣,因為我驚我出街返嚟全部都係塵,因為我連窗,宣佈都用膠 28 紙黐實曬,中間夾塊布咁樣,抽油煙機又夾塊布,咁嗰日我就第二次再行出去,就見到 29 抽油煙機同嗰枱布中間一軋煙咁樣涉入嚟囉,係喇。 30 杜淦堃資深大律師:嗰時幾多點? 31 高女士:我諗係55 分度啦,大概。 32 杜淦堃資深大律師:你見到呢個情況,你之後點做? 33 高女士:我初初,即係冇諗過係火燭㗎嘛,因為…我仲諗緊“又煲燶嘢啊”,因為之前都曾經試 34

Evidential Hearing in relation to fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po

A Court Reporting Transcript by Epiq 44

過深夜有消防拍門,聞到𤓓味,跟住就、我就以為係喇,我諗今次煲燶嘢係咪、就好似 1 係附近咁樣,真係有好多煙衝上嚟。我就諗、我就諗住嗱嗱臨、嗱嗱臨落去通知看更, 2 或者問下係咪有人煲燶嘢咁樣。咁我就都冇諗,冇諗就開咗對門,咁就開咗對門,就見 3 到成個走廊都係煙囉。 4 杜淦堃資深大律師:你會唔會推斷到你見到成個走廊都係煙係幾多點啊? 5 高女士:我55 分喺廚房,即係都係大概嗰個時候,我即刻開門。 6 杜淦堃資深大律師:你見到成個走廊都係煙,你之後點樣做咧? 7 高女士:我見到係煙我就…因為嗰陣煙好厚,一開門右手邊就已經係走火通道喇。因為防煙門有 8 個玻璃嘅,係喇,咁你會望到落去乜嘢情況咁樣。即係你開門望到煙,會望走火通道 9 啦,所謂嘅,裏邊都係白濛濛,睇唔到嘢,即係都係煙囉,嗰一刻就諗唔到咁多嘢喇, 10 我連係咪逃生三寶,即係濕毛巾都冇時間攞,因為本身嗰電話就喺條頸度,就揦咗嗰袋 11 就、穿着鞋就行出去喇。 12 杜淦堃資深大律師:你點樣逃走㗎? 13 高女士:冇得揀,因為冇得番入屋。 14 杜淦堃資深大律師:所以你係點走㗎? 15 高女士:搭𨋢。 16 杜淦堃資深大律師:你搭𨋢係咪直接落到大堂? 17 高女士:係。 18 杜淦堃資深大律師:中間有冇停過? 19 高女士:冇。 20 杜淦堃資深大律師:你落到大堂情況係點? 21 高女士:我一落到大堂就即刻見到有個送貨入嚟嘅男士,推住架車,跟住我就話,唔好入去喇, 22 我20 幾樓屋企入緊煙啊,唔知道乜嘢事,叫佢唔好搭𨋢喇。跟住我落到樓我見到保安姐 23 姐,咁我見佢應該都係未知乜嘢嘅,係喇。跟住再者就有一個應該係管理處嘅女士跑入 24 嚟,就話“大件事喇”,跟住快啲唔知刪啲乜嘢,我聽唔清楚嘅隻字,佢講咗一句嘢, 25 跟住佢話大件事啦,叫保安姐姐快啲閂唔知啲乜嘢咁樣,咁我聽到大件事,我就好快就 26 走咗出去喇。 27 杜淦堃資深大律師:走咗出去見到啲乜嘢? 28 高女士:走咗出去有零星嘅人企喺地下嘅,總之一走出去我就轉身,轉身一望未有火嘅。但係就 29 係我廚房向嗰方向,你望住嗰棟大廈就係我、我落去影咗一幅相,你見到係嗰個方向一 30 堆煙就向後邊嗰度、向天一陣好濃嘅煙囉,跟住你就、係喇,仲好快,我影咗一幅,打 31 咗個電話再睇,上面一堆火爆嘅,咁就唔識反應,就企係度。 32 杜淦堃資深大律師:當時係大概幾多點到? 33 高女士:基本上一轉面我就影咗第一張相,57 分,係喇。 34

Evidential Hearing in relation to fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po

A Court Reporting Transcript by Epiq 45

杜淦堃資深大律師:你頭先講過你父母住喺宏志,係咪? 1 高女士:係。 2 杜淦堃資深大律師:你之後有冇嘗試打電話畀佢哋? 3 高女士:有,我一落去就打畀佢哋,就話火燭啊,我走咗落嚟啦。跟住就、跟住就你哋都落嚟 4 啦,咁樣,係喇。 5 杜淦堃資深大律師:你逃走嘅過程有冇聽到火警鐘或者消防車嘅聲音? 6 高女士:冇。 7 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想畀張相你睇一睇,429。 8 高女士:嗯。 9 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢個係…主席,喺Bundle E1/429,呢張相係咪你影㗎? 10 陸啟康法官:Bundle E? 11 杜淦堃資深大律師:Bundle E1/429,呢張相係咪你影㗎?你認唔認到? 12 高女士:係。 13 杜淦堃資深大律師:係咪你啱先所講嗰張? 14 高女士:係。 15 杜淦堃資深大律師:係你啱啱逃離呢棟大廈望番轉頭影嘅? 16 高女士:嗯。 17 杜淦堃資深大律師:好喇,我想問一問你,喺大維修嘅過程途中有冇啲關於大廈火警安全問題係 18 你特別關注,或者你作出過投訴? 19 高女士:我投訴冇做過,只不過佢哋因為佢有鑽穿我牆,同埋未黐紙皮石滲曬水嗰樣嘢有落去問 20 過,亦都因為佢哋冇跟進過。而且因為打風之後咧我整幅牆濕曬,起曬水pop,跟住佢 21 哋話會跟進,但去到11 月都冇人跟進。跟住我就、火災前一排就…早幾日就直情落去 22 問,點解冇人跟進上次滲水問題?你話有人跟進,咁跟住佢哋話“係咩,冇咩?”跟住 23 check 咗都係冇,跟住…但都係你黐哋痴咗紙皮石口喇哦。 24 杜淦堃資深大律師:另外我想問下你嘅就係,你記得舊年9 月係打過風㗎嘛,係咪? 25 高女士:係。 26 杜淦堃資深大律師:打風之後有冇留意到啲乜嘢咧? 27 高女士:打風之後好多棚網穿曬窿,爛曬嘅,即係好多棚網係冇咗囉。 28 杜淦堃資深大律師:嗯哼,仲有冇留意到啲咩?啲棚網有冇被更換,或者你有冇第二啲嘅觀察? 29 高女士:有被更換,之後係換咗一批淺色啲綠色嘅棚網,所以你喺樓梯望落去就係一幅幅唔同顏 30 色,有深有淺咁樣,之後換嗰批係淺色啲嘅。 31 杜淦堃資深大律師:另外食煙嘅問題,你自己有冇見過工人食煙? 32 高女士:有。 33 杜淦堃資深大律師:情況據你記憶普唔普遍? 34

Evidential Hearing in relation to fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po

A Court Reporting Transcript by Epiq 46

高女士:普遍。 1 杜淦堃資深大律師:你喺邊度見到佢哋食煙? 2 高女士:我主要係喺大廈地下嘅,即係佢哋中意係側邊嘅地方,就係圍住大廈側邊嘅位置,喺地 3 下。但係我喺屋企有聞過煙味,但我冇打開咗窗望過。 4 杜淦堃資深大律師:你有冇投訴過工人食煙? 5 高女士:冇。 6 杜淦堃資深大律師:你知唔知其他街坊有冇投訴過? 7 高女士:我唔知道,但係因為。基本上我覺得好多人投訴都管唔到佢哋,佢哋都係會照食囉。 8 杜淦堃資深大律師:你有冇其他嘅事情想同、用呢個機會同委員會講? 9 高女士:我想講,因為我聽到好多,即係譬如你話啲消防系統全部閂曬呢樣嘢,我諗唔到、想象 10 唔到當時啲人係幾無助。因為我自己都覺得自己只係好彩走到落嚟仲搭到𨋢,但我自己 11 都好後悔,我冇拍到一個門。咁你想象人哋仲喺嗰度冇消防設施嘅時候,幾…係咪可以 12 做得好啲咧?即係到由、你會聽到好多、因為我自己嗰棟,好多我認得嘅人我都見唔到 13 喇,而我自己都做得唔好。咁你哋係咪可以、真係可以做得好啲,揾番個真相出嚟咧? 14 杜淦堃資深大律師:多謝你,高小姐,有冇其他嘅事情想補充? 15 高女士:我諗、我希望大家都珍惜,因為珍惜唔係咁容易,你一瞬間你望住嗰啲嘢發生,就係嗰 16 一分鐘,係。 17 杜淦堃資深大律師:多謝你,主席,我冇其他嘅問題。 18 陳健波議員:高小姐,即係又係啦,希望你放低呢件事啦,因為其實責任唔喺你度㗎嘛,當然你 19 可以救好多人,但現實都係你走出嚟已經好難得㗎喇,你都嘗試幫人喇。我想問一個問 20 題,你可以話係少數,都睇到成件事㗎,係咪,我想問你喺幾點鐘離開宏福苑? 21 高女士:你意思離開係走? 22 陳健波議員:走咗,即係大概咩時候?即係夜晚7 點、8 點定係咁樣? 23 高女士:係差不多,應該係差不多6 點幾7 點。 24 陳健波議員:Okay,重點就係話咧,如果係咁嘅話,你目擊由佢起火到成個過程,呢個過程覺唔 25 覺得佢發展特別快,同埋好快傳咗另外一棟? 26 高女士:係吖。 27 陳健波議員:你覺得係,你覺得有乜嘢原因令到咁?係風大、乾燥定係點? 28 高女士:風大係其中一個,因為我自己都影咗啲相,其實都證明到棚網中間喺好多、佢哋啲發泡 29 膠就咁擺喺棚架度嘅。 30 陳健波議員:你睇到發泡膠係燒着嘅,係咪? 31 高女士:我睇唔到,因為我嗰陣時落咗嚟喇嘛。同埋我見到、見到成個煙,跟住就上面爆,火 32 啦,跟住下面好快有火啦。講緊下邊,因為我事發前都見到下面有很多雜物、污水、污 33 漬,一灘唔知乜嘢嘅水冇人處理嘅,咁嗰啲都有可能是咁快去蔓延嘅原因囉。 34

Evidential Hearing in relation to fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po

A Court Reporting Transcript by Epiq 47

陳健波議員:咁重點係我哋好少見到擴散得咁快嘅火燭,你對消防員嘅救火方法有冇印象?佢哋 1 盡曬力定係佢哋已經係?嚴重到佢哋控制唔到,你自己會有咩睇法? 2 高女士:其實我一落嚟就睇住第一架消防車入嚟嘅,跟住因為一路爆,火屑就一路飛,咁我就越 3 褪越出、越褪越出,跟住之後好快有5、6 架已經入咗嚟㗎喇,就已經塞曬裏邊嗰條路㗎 4 喇。之後我再又行咗過宏志閣後邊廣福邨嗰邊,其實已經駁緊,其實我覺得佢哋都好盡 5 力。 6 陳健波議員:同埋佢哋好大嘅困難,因為竹棚一路燒一路跌㗎嘛,佢根本入唔到嗰個宏昌樓嗰 7 個、嗰個入口,救唔到人,你係咪見到同樣嘅、類似嘅問題? 8 高女士:我見到嘅就係,因為一開始消防車5、6 架已經塞滿咗中間、中間位嗰度,就算出邊嘅消 9 防車入唔到去嘅。 10 陳健波議員:多啲消防車都唔會有幫助嘅? 11 高女士:係喇。 12 陳健波議員:但是你知道,因為普通人唔知點樣救火,你覺得邊啲位可以做得好啲咧?你覺得? 13 或者你覺得如果有警鐘會唔會好好多?有警鐘響一定會救番好多人。 14 高女士:當然啦,因為冇聽過有警鐘,就算我一路褪出去,我都…即係嗰範圍逗留嘅時間,我都 15 冇聽到警鐘響。 16 陳健波議員:多謝,我冇其他問題了。 17 歐陽伯權博士:唔該主席。高小姐,同一個問題咁上下。頭先律師問你,你話你冇聽過消防車嘅 18 聲音。請問你由、喺屋企又聞到𤓓味,直到離開現場,,有冇聽過啲擴音器啊咁上下嘅 19 嘢講畀居民聽係火燭咧? 20 高女士:我喺屋企時間冇,落到嚟嗰段時間都冇。 21 歐陽伯權博士:Okay.唔該,唔該,唔該主席。 22 陸啟康法官:同一樣嘢啦,高小姐,我諗都唔需要怪則自己嘅,你今日咁勇敢行出嚟交代咗呢件 23 事,話畀我哋聽,你嘅證供對我哋瞭解件事係非常之重要,我亦都可以話畀你聽,我哋 24 委員會一定會以最公開、最公平,不偏不倚咁樣盡我哋嘅能力去揾出今次事件嘅真相, 25 多謝你。 26 杜淦堃資深大律師:主席,或者我哋都問一問有冇其他涉事方? 27 陸啟康法官:我知道,請問其他涉事方唔知有冇其他問題想提問?嗯。喺呢度我想再重申番,我 28 諗可以…高小姐,多謝你。 29

30 15 時32 分宏福苑居民證人高以蕾女士作供完畢 31

32 陸啟康法官:其實我諗今日同證人嘅口供,我哋都睇到火災最大嘅一嗰,好不幸有好多居民自 33 責。咁我希望我喺度再重申,不幸嘅事發生咗,只係幾秒鐘嘅時間。所以其實真係唔需 34

Evidential Hearing in relation to fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po

A Court Reporting Transcript by Epiq 48

要怪責自己,我喺度希望亦都重申,講番我頭先所講嘅嘢。今日我哋嗰個聆訊就會完 1 結,但我希望喺完結之後,我哋今日幾位證人都好勇敢咁走出嚟,佢哋都係受到唔同程 2 度上嘅心理壓力,希望各位傳媒朋友畀少少空間佢哋,尊重佢哋嘅意願。咁我哋今日嘅 3 聆訊就到呢度結束,咁我哋就會喺下個星期四、呢個星期四繼續嘅。咁到時你會安排其 4 他嘅證人,係咪?Okay,我哋今日嘅聆訊就會喺呢度結束,多謝各位。 5

6 15 時33 分聆訊押後 7 (聆訊將於2026 年3 月26 日10 時00 分繼續) 8

9

FD06243 | 2025_港澳台_香港宏福苑大火_Transcript-(Chinese)_20260326.pdf

分类:06_境外及港澳台调查报告 | 年份:2025 | 地域:香港 | 严重程度: | 场所: | 起火原因: | 来源格式:pdf

Evidential Hearing in relation to fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po

A Court Reporting Transcript by Epiq 1

就大埔宏福苑火災成立的獨立委員會

聽證會

高等法院原訟法庭陸啟康法官 陳健波議員 歐陽伯權博士

日期

第四天 2026 年3 月26 日

杜淦堃資深大律師, 李澍桓大律師, 俞匡庭大律師, 馮天榮大律師, 張天風大律師, 李俊軒大律師代表獨立委員會

許偉強資深大律師, 何卓衡大律師及楊志聰大律師代表置邦興業有限公司

孫靖乾資深大律師, 卓元暢大律師及劉逸冲大律師代表政府

呂世杰資深大律師及阮文躍大律師代表市區重建局

律政司代表

Evidential Hearing in relation to fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po

A Court Reporting Transcript by Epiq 2

競爭事務委員會代表

合安管理有限公司代表律師

譚俊傑大律師及劉晉安大律師代表宏福苑居民

黃俠然先生代表律師

Evidential Hearing in relation to fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po

A Court Reporting Transcript by Epiq 3

以下內容乃聆訊數碼錄音謄本 1

2 10 時10 分聆訊恢復 3

4 陸啟康法官:今日我哋遲咗少少開始,據我所知係法律團隊需要同--喺嗰個證人安排需要少 5 少時間,我哋係可以理解嘅,我哋請杜資深大律師。 6 杜淦堃資深大律師:主席、兩位委員,我哋今日會繼續傳召一啲宏福苑嘅居民,第一位證人 7 係吳靄詩小姐。早晨,吳女士,你前面有個聲明,麻煩你可唔可以企起身讀一讀。 8

9 10 時11 分宏福苑居民吳靄詩女士開始作供 10

11 吳女士:本人吳靄詩聲明,本人所作的證供盡本人所知、所悉及所信,均屬真實。 12 陸啟康法官:請坐。 13 杜淦堃資深大律師:吳女士,資料顯示你係住喺宏昌閣305 號單位,你幾時搬入去㗎? 14 吳女士:1983 年11 月。 15 杜淦堃資深大律師:案發嘅時候除咗你仲有冇其他家人住喺單位嗰度? 16 吳女士:冇。 17 杜淦堃資深大律師:我知道你火警發生嗰日係--較早嘅時間係離開咗宏福苑,你可唔可以講 18 一講畀我哋聽嗰一日你去咗邊同埋幾時返到去發現有火警嗰個經過? 19 吳女士:我嗰日朝頭早七點幾離開屋企,大約兩點零鐘喺沙田第一城搭呢個806A 小巴返屋 20 企。 21 杜淦堃資深大律師:你幾時發現宏福苑係有火警? 22 吳女士:係喺小巴上面,司機話「宏福苑火燭」,咁我去到濾水廠個天橋嗰度就見到山後 23 面,即係我屋企嗰個方向嘅天空好多濃煙。 24 杜淦堃資深大律師:見到當時大概係幾多點? 25 吳女士:大約係差唔多3 點。 26 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想請問下你喺大火之前,你就大廈大維修嘅過程裏面一啲嘅觀察,第 27 一件事我想問下你,就係你屋企嗰度其實應係會睇到宏昌閣1 樓嗰度有個天井平台 28 嘅? 29 吳女士:係。 30 杜淦堃資深大律師:就嗰個平台,你有冇留意到啲乜嘢呢? 31 吳女士:個平台其實係睇唔到1 樓嗰度嘅,因為係每一層都有個棚架,打橫有通道,有啲板 32 搭住,有個通道,畀佢哋氹氹𡃈喺個建築物出面行走。 33

Evidential Hearing in relation to fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po

A Court Reporting Transcript by Epiq 4

杜淦堃資深大律師:咁你知唔知道個平台上高有冇垃圾或者多唔多垃圾? 1 吳女士:應該好多垃圾嘅,因為我每一日都聽到有嘢跌落去嘅。 2 杜淦堃資深大律師:你啱啱提到聽到,但係你見唔到嗰啲係啲咩嚟,係咪? 3 吳女士:聽到啲聲,憑啲聲聽到會係石屎嗰啲碎片、一啲建築材料着地嘅聲音。 4 杜淦堃資深大律師:幾時開始呀呢個情況,你會唔會講到畀我哋聽? 5 吳女士:呢個好耐㗎嘞,自大維修開始其實都有。 6 杜淦堃資深大律師:你知唔知道嗰個平台除咗有垃圾之外,你有冇見過工人喺嗰度出沒? 7 吳女士:我見唔到嘅,不過我聽到好多人聲。 8 杜淦堃資深大律師:你聽到人聲呢個情況有幾密呀? 9 吳女士:每日都有。 10 杜淦堃資深大律師:每日都有,而喺嗰個位傳上嚟嘅? 11 吳女士:係。 12 杜淦堃資深大律師:你知唔知道喺大維修過程期間你有冇見過或者從其他途徑得悉有工人食 13 煙? 14 吳女士:我見唔到,不過我聞到。 15 杜淦堃資深大律師:你喺邊度聞到? 16 吳女士:圍繞我間屋,由我個廚房個窗、我個廳個窗、我睡房個窗、甚至廁所個窗、我個大 17 門,都係聞到有煙吹入嚟。 18 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢個情況喺大維修之前有冇出現過? 19 吳女士:有嘅,不過好少,會係夜晚黑,唔係日頭工作時間。 20 杜淦堃資深大律師:你自己喺宏福苑地下度,大維修期間有冇見過譬如煙頭或者其他你想同 21 我哋講嘅雜物? 22 吳女士:有煙頭、有建築廢物。 23 杜淦堃資深大律師:你提到建築廢物,建築廢物你喺邊度見到,邊個位置? 24 吳女士:我伸個頭出窗就會見到㗎。 25 杜淦堃資深大律師:喺邊個位,嗰啲建築廢物? 26 吳女士:我廚房、我大門口,即係嗰個玄關嗰個窗、我廳個窗,我伸個頭出去望呢,我打開 27 隻窗,伸個頭出去望就會見到。 28 杜淦堃資深大律師:嗰啲廢物喺邊度? 29 吳女士:落喺啲竹棚中間𢲲住,或者係個窗嗰個窗台。 30 杜淦堃資深大律師:嗰啲係一啲乜嘢嘅建築廢物? 31 吳女士:有紮竹棚嗰啲黑色嗰啲帶、有一啲竹、有啲發泡膠,即係𠝹咗出嚟嗰啲發泡膠,係 32 喇,紙皮嗰啲,類似嗰啲囉。 33 杜淦堃資深大律師:除咗喺你窗門外面,或者個棚上高,喺宏福苑嘅地下你都有冇留意到有 34

Evidential Hearing in relation to fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po

A Court Reporting Transcript by Epiq 5

冇建築廢物堆積嘅情況? 1 吳女士:間中會有。 2 杜淦堃資深大律師:係喺咩嘢位置? 3 吳女士:喺個竹棚同我哋個外牆中間,地下嗰度。 4 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢啲建築廢物,其實你係經常見到、偶爾見到,有幾密呀見到? 5 吳女士:偶爾會見到。 6 杜淦堃資深大律師:喺火災發生之前,我哋知道11 月26 日係火災,火災之前嗰幾日有冇見 7 到? 8 吳女士:有,嗰排係比較密㗎,即係朝頭早聽見-- 每朝八點幾就已經聽見上面有好多嘢 9 「噓」落嚟。 10 杜淦堃資深大律師:另外,我想問你嘅一個題目就係後樓梯,後樓梯嘅防煙門或者通往地下 11 大堂嘅任何一個嗰啲門,係咪通常都係可以打開㗎? 12 吳女士:係。 13 杜淦堃資深大律師:有冇試過有情況係上咗鎖,你開唔到? 14 吳女士:冇鎖㗎。 15 杜淦堃資深大律師:冇鎖,全部都冇鎖嘅? 16 吳女士:嗄,嗰啲防煙門冇鎖。 17 杜淦堃資深大律師:大堂出去出面個位置呢,有冇啲門係鎖咗㗎? 18 吳女士:我嗰邊地下外出嗰個係--我唔知佢有冇鎖,但係我係㧬唔到出去,即係唔可以由我 19 嗰邊出去。 20 杜淦堃資深大律師:你幾時試過㧬,出唔到去呀? 21 吳女士:咁好耐嘞。 22 杜淦堃資深大律師:好耐。 23 吳女士:好耐。 24 杜淦堃資深大律師:試過一次定多次? 25 吳女士:試過一、兩次。 26 杜淦堃資深大律師:Okay。有冇其他嘢你想同委員會講,就今次嘅事件? 27 吳女士:(搖頭) 28 杜淦堃資深大律師:我冇其他問題。 29 陸啟康法官:吳女士,好多謝你今次嚟作供,我知道都係好傷感嘅一件事,不過,我諗你嘅 30 證供對我哋個調查非常之重要,好多謝你今日出席,多謝。我想問其他有冇涉事方 31 想提問?冇。請下一位證人。 32

33 10 時21 分宏福苑居民吳靄詩女士作供完畢 34

Evidential Hearing in relation to fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po

A Court Reporting Transcript by Epiq 6

10 時21 分宏福苑居民王嘉婉女士開始作供 1

2 杜淦堃資深大律師:下一位證人係王嘉婉女士。王小姐,早晨。 3 王女士:早晨。 4 杜淦堃資深大律師:你面前應該有個聲明,麻煩你企起身讀一讀,唔該你。 5 王女士:本人王嘉婉聲明本人所作的證供,盡本人所知、所悉及所信,均屬真實。 6 陸啟康法官:請坐,王女士。 7 杜淦堃資深大律師:麻煩你今日嚟到提供你嘅證供。資料顯示你係住喺宏昌閣1005 號單 8 位。 9 王女士:係。 10 杜淦堃資深大律師:當時除咗你之外,屋企仲有啲咩嘢人住喺呢個單位? 11 王女士:住喺呢個單位,有先生、同埋兩個小朋友。 12 杜淦堃資深大律師:你係幾時搬去宏福苑㗎? 13 王女士:大概16 年年尾,17 年年頭。 14 杜淦堃資深大律師:從你嘅證據顯示就大維修個過程,你都有一啲嘅觀察嘅,有幾方面想你 15 幫一幫我哋。第一,就係食煙嘅情況,你可唔可以話畀我哋知你有冇見到食煙,同 16 埋知道喺維修期間有冇工人食煙? 17 王女士:我冇見過佢哋食煙,不過個窗出面自從搭咗棚之後就會有啲煙味傳入嚟。 18 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢個情況普唔普遍,發生得密唔密? 19 王女士:有陣時囉。 20 杜淦堃資深大律師:有冇話屋企邊個地方會比較多啲聞到煙味?定係全部都差唔多? 21 王女士:全部都差唔多。 22 杜淦堃資深大律師:你有冇投訴過呀就呢件事? 23 王女士:冇,不過見到𨋢度成日都黐晒啲通告,就係有好多居民投訴嗰啲工人食煙。 24 杜淦堃資深大律師:跟住想問下你火警當日嘅經過,我哋知道火警係喺11 月26 號當日下午 25 發生,當時你喺邊度? 26 王女士:當時喺屋企。 27 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁你係幾時知道出咗事有火警? 28 王女士:我係2 點50 分聞到有煙味,咁我喺度搵,搵下會唔會頭先--因為我啱啱煮完嘢, 29 我睇下自己有冇唔記得熄爐,咁就係冇,熄好晒爐,完全搵唔到喺邊度。跟住之後 30 就聽到棚出面有個工人嗌「火燭」,跟住就開窗見到,但係唔係好大嘅,少少煙, 31 跟住我就閂窗就走。 32 杜淦堃資深大律師:你聽到工人除咗嗌「火燭」之外,你仲有冇聽到佢哋講其他嘢,當時? 33 王女士:冇。 34

Evidential Hearing in relation to fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po

A Court Reporting Transcript by Epiq 7

杜淦堃資深大律師:打開個窗除咗見到煙之外,你有冇見過火光,當時? 1 王女士:冇。 2 杜淦堃資深大律師:好,知道有煙,閂番埋個窗,之後你點做呢? 3 王女士:之後我走,出門口,見到--我首先見到有一個男人拎住個銀包喺另一邊跑過嚟,因 4 為我哋嗰邊嗰啲鄰居我全部都認得嘅,喺另一邊--佢即係佢自己條樓梯冇行,行我 5 嗰邊條樓梯,喺我前面,因為我一出門口就係樓梯嚟㗎嘞。咁佢就冇出聲,就咁就 6 行咗落樓梯,跟住之後我就見到我對面嗰兩戶鄰居一齊開門,我就行過去問佢, 7 「啊,你哋聞唔聞到好臭呀?」咁樣,咁佢就--有其中一位就話畀我知,佢打落管 8 理處,管理處話畀佢聽個棚焫著咗啲嘢咁樣樣。跟住我話「吓,咁咪即係火燭 9 囉」。跟住佢就--我就話「吓,咁我哋要打999 喎,我哋走嘞喎」,跟住佢話 10 「你不如你打去管理處度問下搞定咗未先喇」,我話「吓,我唔打管理處,我打 11 999。」於是我就打咗999。跟住打999,我等咗好耐先至有人聽電話,第一次打 12 999 竟然係「線路繁忙,請你等一等」。 13 杜淦堃資深大律師:當然,你而家好難講到等咗幾耐,但係你個印象係你聽到佢講「線路繁 14 忙」聽咗幾多次? 15 王女士:聽咗兩三次,但係我印象中好似係廣東話、英文同普通話我都聽咗兩三次,但係我 16 真係唔知大概佢有冇咁耐。 17 杜淦堃資深大律師:資料顯示你係第一個打999 嘅居民嚟嘅。 18 王女士:但係點解會線路繁忙呢? 19 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢個我哋之後... 20 王女士:我真係等咗好耐,我冇諗過我打999 竟然係線路繁忙。 21 杜淦堃資深大律師:好,你打999,接通咗之後,你會唔會講到畀我哋聽你提供咗啲咩嘢資 22 料? 23 王女士:我同佢講我喺邊度囉,我喺--即係「我而家喺宏昌閣10 樓,跟住有--我聞到好 24 臭」咁樣樣囉。跟住之後,我嗰時喺走廊係見唔到煙同火嘅,淨係開窗嗰時先見到 25 有煙嘅啫,跟住之後佢就叫我沿樓梯行落去逃生。但係我當時唔記得咗敲火警鐘, 26 佢哋都冇提我,我就走咗。 27 杜淦堃資深大律師:你嘅999 電話嗰個錄音呢,我哋喺委員會之前嘅聆訊其實都播過,所以 28 我哋聽過,咁我想你講番嘅就係,你打完嗰個電話之後,你係點走㗎? 29 王女士:我係行樓梯走。 30 杜淦堃資深大律師:你走嘅時候見唔見到或者聞唔聞到煙? 31 王女士:我聞到有味,但係冇見到煙同火。直至到去到--其實我仲係--因為我覺得冇迫切- 32 -未有好迫切性去跑,我又驚跑又跌親。跟住我用一個平常嘅速度去行,直到去去到 33 唔知邊一層,因為我冇睇住幾多樓,直至到去到唔知邊一層,我就見到後樓梯個窗 34

Evidential Hearing in relation to fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po

A Court Reporting Transcript by Epiq 8

變咗紅色,嗰一刻我就真係開始驚,跟住真係衝落去,衝落下面,跟住點知都係仲 1 有一隻紅色嘅窗,再落多一層,都仲有一隻紅色嘅窗,跟住再落,終於冇嘞,跟住 2 就「呯」一聲開門就已經係大堂。 3 杜淦堃資深大律師:你去到--你講唔講到你去到幾多樓見到個窗外面係紅色嘅煙? 4 王女士:總之我見到三隻窗。 5 杜淦堃資深大律師:你見到嗰啲窗係喺後樓梯嘅窗? 6 王女士:後樓梯嘅窗。 7 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁你見到嗰個窗... 8 王女士:即係其實喺我側邊,係嘞。 9 杜淦堃資深大律師:嗰啲窗係平時你後樓梯嗰啲窗定係經過改動過㗎,你有冇留意? 10 王女士:當時紅色嘅窗係已經換咗新嘅窗,係嘞,但係我嗰層就應該變咗做木板,即係10 11 樓嗰隻。 12 杜淦堃資深大律師:你10 樓後--你指後樓梯嘅窗? 13 王女士:係嘞,10 樓後樓梯嘅窗係... 14 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係你逃走嗰陣仲係木板嚟嘅? 15 王女士:咩嘢呀? 16 杜淦堃資深大律師:你逃走嗰陣見到就仲係木板嚟嘅,係咪? 17 王女士:唔係,我逃走嘅時候,因為我係行呢邊呀已經,就唔係行嗰邊。 18 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白。 19 王女士:因為佢係交叉睇。 20 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係你逃走個過程係見到有窗係換咗木板嘅,有冇見到? 21 王女士:冇見到。 22 杜淦堃資深大律師:冇見到,你頭先所指你嗰層係木板。 23 王女士:係。 24 杜淦堃資深大律師:你個意思唔係逃走當日見到嘅,係另外一啲時間見到? 25 王女士:係,冇錯。 26 杜淦堃資深大律師:你係幾時見到換咗木板? 27 王女士:裝修之後。 28 杜淦堃資深大律師:裝修之後。 29 王女士:係。 30 杜淦堃資深大律師:換句話講,由你離開屋企到你落到大堂,其實你有冇遇到啲呼吸困難嘅 31 情況? 32 王女士:冇。 33 杜淦堃資深大律師:冇。你落到去大堂嘅時候,你會唔會講到畀我哋知大概係幾多點? 34

Evidential Hearing in relation to fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po

A Court Reporting Transcript by Epiq 9

王女士:落到大堂,因為我落到大堂之後再跑出去,差唔多公園嗰個位置嘅時候我係打畀屋 1 企人嘅,應該據個電話記錄,去到公園打電話嘅時候應該就係55 分。 2 杜淦堃資深大律師:2 點55 分? 3 王女士:係,2 點55 分,應該話大堂嗰陣54 左右,53? 4 杜淦堃資深大律師:你離開大堂之後,你有冇見到--你去咗邊?即係去到公園之後,跟住你 5 去咗邊? 6 王女士:我可唔可以講下我喺大堂見到啲乜嘢? 7 杜淦堃資深大律師:大堂講咗先。 8 王女士:我去到大堂「砰」一聲開門吖嘛,跟住我就見到有兩個等--一個等緊𨋢嘅女人、一 9 個扶住單車--推緊單車入嚟大堂,準備搭𨋢嘅人都有、一個保安,同埋一個嗰個叫 10 做--嗰個叫咩?死嘞,突然之間唔記得添,一個管理處嘅職員。 11 杜淦堃資深大律師:係。 12 王女士:係嘞。跟住見到我「砰」一聲好驚咁樣樣,跟住佢哋就四個人望住我,跟住我就好 13 驚咁望住佢,然之後我大嗌「火燭」,跟住我就走咗。跟住我又見到管理處嗰個職 14 員係教緊個保安唔知喺度整嗰個--總之佢個位嗰啲嘢,但我唔知佢整乜嘢,咁樣 15 樣。 16 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白,跟住你就走咗去公園? 17 王女士:係嘞,因為我跑出去。 18 杜淦堃資深大律師:去到公園之後發生咩嘢事? 19 王女士:去到公園之後打畀屋企人話畀佢聽我屋企火燭,跟住我擰番轉頭睇,嗰個火已經高 20 過宏昌閣。 21 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係已經燒咗去頂? 22 王女士:已經燒咗去頂嘞。 23 杜淦堃資深大律師:你跟住去咗邊度? 24 王女士:跟住去我我阿媽屋企,喺廣福邨廣𧙗樓。 25 杜淦堃資深大律師:去到媽媽屋企之後,我哋知道廣福邨係喺宏福苑隔籬。 26 王女士:係。 27 杜淦堃資深大律師:媽媽屋企睇唔睇到宏福苑嘅情況? 28 王女士:可以睇到,好清楚。 29 杜淦堃資深大律師:媽媽住幾多樓呀? 30 王女士:13 樓。 31 杜淦堃資深大律師:你可唔可以同委員會講,你去到媽媽屋企之後見到啲乜嘢? 32 王女士:去到佢屋企之後,見到個火已經燒過咗個--喺後面已經燒過咗個--高過個宏昌閣, 33 跟住之後就見到消防員開始救火,開頭啲火呢其實--唔係,即係水呢,可以1 樓都 34

Evidential Hearing in relation to fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po

A Court Reporting Transcript by Epiq 10

--1 樓,啱啱好啡到,但係2 樓已經救唔到。跟住宏昌閣嘅1 樓嗰個單位,個窗就 1 開始成個單位著火,成個框框都係橙色、紅色。跟住過多一陣,因為啲水去唔到, 2 跟住就去就去到2 樓,又著咗,成個橙色嘅正方、長方形,跟住上升咗上3 樓,跟 3 住隔一陣嗰啲棚網就燒著咗,然之後就飄過咗隔籬大廈,成棟著咗,再過多一陣就 4 連再隔籬嗰棟都著咗,就係咁樣。 5 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係換句話講,你去到媽媽屋企就見到個火勢一樣嘅發展。你見到由宏 6 昌閣飄去另外一棟大廈,令到另外一棟大廈都起火嘅時候,你講唔講到大概係幾 7 時?你去咗媽媽屋企之後幾耐? 8 王女士:我冇特別留意睇佢飄嘅時係幾多點。 9 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白。你一路喺媽媽屋企觀察個火警嘅情況,我相信你都一路留喺度睇 10 咗好耐,係咪? 11 王女士:係,直至到佢都要疏散。 12 杜淦堃資深大律師:媽媽屋企嗰度有冇疏散到? 13 王女士:有。 14 杜淦堃資深大律師:大概係幾多點疏散? 15 王女士:4 點幾?5 點幾? 16 杜淦堃資深大律師:當時係廣福邨,你可唔可以重複一次係廣咩嘢樓? 17 王女士:廣祐樓。 18 杜淦堃資深大律師:廣祐樓。呢個如果你話到畀我哋知就講,你係見到火種喺宏昌飄去隔籬 19 嗰一棟大廈,係邊一棟大廈你所指嘅係? 20 王女士:係飄完一棟再一棟。 21 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔,明白。你有冇其他嘢想同委員會講? 22 王女士:我希望--希望--可能好渺茫,但係可能可以搵番點解會火燭,邊個做成呢個火,引 23 致呢個火警嘅原因,又或者其他唔同嘅消防處,其他嗰啲處都好,可以搵到點解, 24 點解當時唔夠水壓救火,如果佢一開始救到火就已經可以--個火災冇蔓延得咁快。 25 杜淦堃資深大律師:主席,我冇其他嘅問題。 26 陸啟康法官:王女士,即係我諗要你今日講番嗰日睇到嘅嘢一定係相當困難,亦都一定會係 27 好傷心,但係今日你嘅證供對我哋調查係非常之有用,我亦都好多謝你出席今日呢 28 一個嘅聆訊。但係喺呢個之前,我想再confirm,你哋已經做咗,佢係--阿王女 29 士個電話係第一個999 嘅電話? 30 杜淦堃資深大律師:(點頭) 31 陸啟康法官:咁其他涉事方有冇問題想提問? 32 杜淦堃資深大律師:主席,佢係第一位打999 嘅居民,之前喺委員會嘅聆訊就知道有位途人 33 係先打,就居民嚟講,王小姐係第一位。 34

Evidential Hearing in relation to fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po

A Court Reporting Transcript by Epiq 11

陸啟康法官:好,唔該晒你,王小姐。 1

2

3 10 時36 分宏福苑居民王嘉婉女士作供完畢 4 10 時37 分宏福苑居民冼善卿女士開始作供 5

6 杜淦堃資深大律師:主席,下一位主任係冼善卿女士。 7 冼女士:各位早晨。 8 杜淦堃資深大律師:冼女士,你好,頭先我見你,你叫我講嘢大聲啲,你聽唔聽到我講嘢? 9 冼女士:聽到,聽到。 10 杜淦堃資深大律師:多謝你。 11 冼女士:唔好意思,因為我個耳嘅聽覺退化咗,我需要大家要問我嘅嘢時候呢,我要你哋稍 12 為大聲啲,同埋慢啲,拜托晒。 13 陸啟康法官:冇問題,冇問題。 14 冼女士:本人冼善卿聲明,本人所作嘅證供盡本人所知、所悉及所信,均屬真實。 15 陸啟康法官:冼女士,如果你聽唔到我哋嘅問題,你就記得叫我哋重複,好唔好呀?唔該晒 16 你。 17 冼女士:好,唔該晒。 18 杜淦堃資深大律師:冼女士,我哋知道你住喺宏泰1406 單位嘅,係咪? 19 冼女士:對嘅。 20 杜淦堃資深大律師:你喺火警當日,除咗你仲有冇其他人係住喺嗰個單位㗎? 21 冼女士:有,我個細嘅女。 22 杜淦堃資深大律師:冼女士,我哋可能在座都有睇過你曾經接受過一啲媒體嘅訪問,你對於 23 你火警當日逃生嘅經過講得非常之清晰嘅。 24 冼女士:唔。 25 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係我哋都要麻煩你嚟講多一次畀委員會聽,所以我係想就你喺宏福苑 26 大火之前一啲嘅觀察,同埋你逃生嗰日嘅經過,想你慢慢咁講畀主席同兩位委員聽 27 嘅。 28 冼女士:好嘅。 29 杜淦堃資深大律師:好,首先,我想問一問你嘅就係,你曾經係擔任過法團委員會嘅司庫 30 㗎,係咪呀? 31 冼女士:係,啱嘅。 32 杜淦堃資深大律師:係喺邊一年呀,你講唔講到? 33 冼女士:呢樣嘢比較遺憾,我只記得自己係我做過三屆,但係喺邊一年入去,我就唔係好準 34

Evidential Hearing in relation to fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po

A Court Reporting Transcript by Epiq 12

確。我係63 歲--唔係,63 歲退休嘅,咁應該係66 歲嘅時間入去嘅,大概係咁上 1 下,我唔準確嘅,我係靠記憶嘅啫。 2 杜淦堃資深大律師:你介唔介意我問你退咗休幾耐? 3 冼女士:65 歲退休,即係二十年。 4 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔好意思,我間接披露你嘅年齡,希望你唔好介意。 5 冼女士:其實我仲係個數盲,好輪盡。 6 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔係,你好清楚㗎嘞。我想問一問你嘅就係,大火當日我知道你喺屋企 7 嘅? 8 冼女士:係,冇錯。 9 杜淦堃資深大律師:你係點樣樣發覺有火警㗎? 10 冼女士:我係一個都幾buy 回收嘅人,我係喺屋企整理緊我措埋嘅紙張、碎嘅膠袋、同埋膠 11 樽、玻璃樽、嗰啲鋁罐咁樣嘅。我整理好咗,就用架車仔--嗰日係禮拜二嚟嘅,我 12 應該冇記錯,因為我要搭嗰架71K 出去大埔街市,佢又有個流動嘅回收站喺嗰度, 13 我一落車就對正個站就好方便,我一定係選嗰一日出去回收,我因為自己拎個車 14 仔,唔係好大嗰啲,回收個物件好多,所以我要整理得整齊啲先至裝得晒入去嘅。 15 我係開門嘅時候預備出去,點解嗰個電梯大堂會有黑色嘅煙一縷縷喺度遊走呢?我 16 心話「唔通係火燭?」,咁我就拿拿聲閂埋隻門,就諗住戒條話要塞門罅,畀啲濕 17 毛巾,咁呀𠓼𠓼𠓼𠓼,就諗住擔張凳上去擒高去𠓼上邊,但係我唔知會唔會跌落嚟 18 喎,如果我跌落嚟暈咗咪冇得救囉,咁我就放棄咗。咁呀睇住嗰啲煙一縷縷咁樣喺 19 個上邊門罅入嚟。我話「死喇,煙會焗死我喎,火到未到佢已經焗死咗我」,我心 20 係咁諗。 21 杜淦堃資深大律師:冼女士,我停一停你,你可唔可以幫一幫我哋,話畀我哋知你知唔知道 22 你係幾多點--大概幾多點發覺有煙? 23 冼女士:呢樣嘢比較模糊,當時我覺得自己好似係點零兩點鐘嘅,但係後來聽到啲報導話兩 24 點鐘先起火,可能我自己就記錯咗個時間。咁後來我見到個煙--我繼續講埋個故 25 仔,好唔好呀? 26 杜淦堃資深大律師:好,你繼續講。 27 冼女士:咁見到一縷縷煙入嚟就我知道要點算呢?呢樣嘢就係呢一次宏福苑好多個小錯畀咗 28 一個機會我逃生,因為佢冇警鐘響,所以我屋企有電。我諗下我屋企有好多抽--我 29 有個抽油煙機、兩個抽氣扇,我開晒佢,幫手吹--即係抽咁啲黑煙咁嘅意思嘅,咁 30 我就開晒佢,開埋啲窗,諗下,嘩,唔知夠唔夠喎,拎埋兩把活動風扇對住個窗吹 31 出去,我坐定喺度等,都唔知點諗,我心諗住個火警,人哋嗰啲消防員救熄咗之後 32 佢會拍門就搵我哋喇,咪乖乖地坐喺度囉。但係嗰啲煙一縷縷咁入嚟,經過我屋 33 企,咁又出咗窗口。我話「咦,得喎,原來呢樣嘢。」咁喺度等囉,但係等下又見 34

Evidential Hearing in relation to fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po

A Court Reporting Transcript by Epiq 13

對面「砰砰」聲一個--燒得好緊要,我個廁所嗰邊又有火燒過嚟,我心諗「呢次點 1 算呢?」唔係嘞,都係話其實我當初覺得有煙嘅時候,我已經打電話落去畀管理處 2 嘅,管理處冇人接聽,咁我就意識到佢哋出嚟做嘢,後來我坐得悶悶地,唔係嘞, 3 都係999 好啲。咁呀打電話畀999。其實我打咗好--呢個災情嗰個期間,我打咗 4 有成十次八次999,但係我比剛才嗰位小姐順利啲,我冇一次話叫我等下嘅,次次 5 都接通。咁後來,你仲想聽落去嗎? 6 杜淦堃資深大律師:我問一問你呢個問題,睇下幫唔幫你吖?你應係該喺3 點36 分打999 7 嘅。咁如果喺3 點36 分打999,你會唔會推斷到你係喺打呢個電話之前幾耐首先 8 發現有火警呢? 9 冼女士:咁如果係咁就應該喺兩點鐘,雖然我都不停喺度轉圈睇下點樣救自己,大家都知道 10 我拎啲水淋下啲竹棚,又去攞個噴水壺去噴熄嗰啲網,但係好僥倖就係我個網係冇 11 畀颱風打咗去嘅,即係唔需要換新網我個位置。即係話而家事後孔明,就知道嗰個 12 係網係正規嘅網,後面加嗰啲先至係會易燃嗰啲,因為我睇住啲新網「砰砰」聲喺 13 度燒。咁我竹棚--我由頭--都諗過,大家都知道我有諗過要爬--落去竹棚,諗下 14 唔係喎,佢咁大支竹跌落嚟,梗係人哋對面嗰個棚冧喇。咁佢冧,我呢個都可能冧 15 㗎嘛,我就唔敢落去,我驚住跌咗落街,我耐心啲等囉。 16 因為好多親戚打電話嚟,包括外國嘅,咁我接得佢就漏咗嗰個--即係第一批嚟 17 救我嘅人,我唔知道有人,又冇人拍過門,我又唔知道原來要聽「嗶嗶」聲,所以 18 我唔知道。直至後來我同999 嗰個接線員有少少衝突,呢一樣我都希望喺度同佢道 19 歉,我係心情唔好,所以咁講。 20 咁後來佢同我接入去,當時嗰個接線嗰個應該係個警察嚟嘅,呢個警察真係好 21 有--好有呢種技巧,佢畀一種好和平嘅語氣話畀你聽「我好快就會嚟到,你應該點 22 做,你唔好掛斷電話,我會再同你通電,直至你離開火場」,我當時嗰個緊張心情 23 降落咗一啲,即係冇咁緊張,就耐心喺度等,佢真係好快有第二個電話嚟,佢話畀 24 我聽,叫我聽住嗰啲「嗶嗶」聲,你就去開門。咁我聽到有「嗶嗶」聲,我咪去開 25 門囉,我問有冇人,但係冇人應我,出面黑到呢,你真係一啲嘢都睇唔到,咁濃嘅 26 煙,第一件事我梗係將隻門閂番佢,咁呀再靜心嚟聽,電話再響,佢話「你有冇聽 27 到嗶嗶聲?」我話「聽到一次,但係唔知--而家又冇咗」。佢話「你耐心啲聽,你 28 定啲聽,一定會上嚟,佢上緊嚟」咁我就再聽,呢次有,有,我又再開門,係咪有 29 人?佢話「快啲閂門,快啲閂門,你幾多號?」我心話「咁黑,你點睇到我幾多號 30 呀?」諗諗下點呢?出大打抌隻門,佢聽到囉,佢好快脆就話畀我聽話「得嘞,我 31 知你喺度嘞,你而家可以開門嘞」,咁我就開門,佢四個人入咗嚟,戴住一個罩, 32 呢度有盞燈。佢第一件事就將同一個罩笠落我個頭嗰度,呢度有盞燈嗰啲。佢話 33 「婆婆,點解你間屋冇煙嘅?」我介紹佢認識我用呢個方法處理,佢哋送咗四個手 34

Evidential Hearing in relation to fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po

A Court Reporting Transcript by Epiq 14

指公畀我。咁就話畀我聽要行14 樓落去,因為冇電梯,得唔得?我話我要生命 1 呀。 2 杜淦堃資深大律師:婆婆,你停一停,我想你睇一睇張相。呢個係你屋企? 3 冼女士:係呀,係呀,係呀。冇錯,點解淨係嗰度黑咗嘅? 4 杜淦堃資深大律師:你睇你前面嗰個。 5 冼女士:哦,唔好意思。係呀,冇錯,啱。 6 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋知道你個單位個情況喺呢個火災裏面... 7 冼女士:都算良好。 8 杜淦堃資深大律師:...就見到咁樣樣,你頭先所講個風扇就我哋而家見到嗰個,係咪? 9 冼女士:係,冇錯,係嘞,擺咗喺度,吹向窗出面。 10 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔好意思,我頭先打斷你,你講到消防員嚟咗,你話咗畀佢知你用個風 11 扇嚟吹走啲煙,跟住發生咩嘢事呀? 12 冼女士:佢就叫我--話畀我聽要用腳落去14 樓,問我得唔得?咁我答佢「我要生存,唔得 13 都要得喇,係咪呀?」咁佢話「好,不過12 樓有個大公仔,你唔使驚,唔係,你 14 𨂾過佢,因住小心佢𠽤到你,你唔使驚。」咁佢話有個大公仔,我都冇乜意識,可 15 能有啲人,或者唔知啲細路哥玩啲--走嗰時帶個玩具都唔定,我都未--我未有呢種 16 意識。但係佢叫我唔使驚,我覺得出奇,做乜要驚呢?我話唔通有一個遺體喺嗰 17 度?我心就係咁諗,我話「哦」。咁我就跟住佢行。一行到出去真係好黑,但係我 18 對到正正近住嗰面𨋢口嗰個單位,就燒咗一個咁大嘅窿,個火仲喺度燒緊嘅。咁我 19 隔籬嗰度,我個連牆嗰度已經有條裂痕,我就已經知道隔籬係燒緊㗎嘞。但係行到 20 出去嗰陣時,嗰度其實有嗰位先生咁遠嘅嗰道門,但係你呢度都覺得㷫嘅。咁我就 21 意識到佢喺度燒緊。 22 咁就我唔好理咁多,跟住啲消防員就走,落到--佢一路帶到我落12 樓嘅時 23 候,佢話「婆婆,個大公仔阻住你㗎,你𨂾過佢喇」。咁佢𨂾--我𨂾過佢之後,得 24 嘞,佢話「你安全㗎嘞」咁,我覺得後面兩個消防員耷低個頭,我知道佢係將嗰個 25 遺體帶走。我而家都好感動,我覺得香港真係好驕傲,好專業嘅消防員,雖然佢死 26 咗,但係早啲帶離個現場,佢家人會好過啲,如果唔係佢會畀第二次--第三次去蹂 27 躪佢個屍體,呢個係我嘅想法。所以我都--嗰啲記者都好幫忙,係將呢個信息話畀 28 大家聽,雖然我唔知佢四個係邊個,但係我喺呢度好多謝佢,包括嗰個警察,同我 29 接線嗰個,佢真係使人哋好安慰,會將嗰啲好繃緊嘅情緒撫平落嚟嘅,我好多謝佢 30 哋。唔好意思。 31 咁落到下邊嘅時候,佢第一個拖住我,我唔知係有咗佢扶住我、秤住我嘅,落 32 到去下邊嘅時候,帶住我行先嗰個消防--嗰個救護員就話畀我聽,下邊有好多嗰啲 33 水管,係愛嚟救火嗰啲水管係脹滿水嘅水管,佢話「你小心踩落去,試下先,如果 34

Evidential Hearing in relation to fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po

A Court Reporting Transcript by Epiq 15

唔係會屈嚫腳。咁我都遞隻腳落去,所謂試下先,都係一遞落去想踩落地,原來係 1 畀條水管𠽤住,所以幾乎仆喺度。咁後面秤住我嗰個救護員就好大力咁樣秤到我 2 實,咁我都好彩冇跌到,咁一路佢拖住我就行出去平地嗰度,佢話「安全嘞,你就 3 跟佢兩個去救護車,我就處理呢個遺體。」呢一場經歷畀我--喺人生裏面,我估計 4 我呢一生人雖然未必會長,但係會永遠記得,係香港嘅驕傲。多謝晒。 5 杜淦堃資深大律師:冼女士,我想問一問你,講唔講到畀我哋聽,你獲救嘅時候大概係幾多 6 點,知唔知?消防員拍你門。 7 冼女士:應--估計--我估計係超過9 點。 8 杜淦堃資深大律師:另外一方面,我想問下你,你獲救嗰陣,其實你講到你開咗窗--開咗個 9 風扇,開咗嗰啲空氣清新機、抽油煙機。屋裏面大唔大煙嗰陣? 10 冼女士:冇煙㗎嘞。 11 杜淦堃資深大律師:冇煙㗎嘞,係。 12 冼女士:冇煙,嗰幾個救護員都話「點解你屋企冇煙」,佢因為喺上邊經過,就由窗戶出咗 13 去。 14 杜淦堃資深大律師:另外想問下你另外一方面,火警之前大廈大維修嘅情況,當時你有冇見 15 到一啲嘢令到你係會擔心有火警嘅? 16 冼女士:其實我呢樣嘢真係好抱歉,我冇呢個意識話去防火,因為我已經入住嗰個地方成四 17 十年,咁我咁熟悉嘅地方,我覺得自己好似幾開心咁,我最開心就係咩嘢,買完餸 18 返嚟一身大汗,一入個苑--一入嗰條通道就好清涼嘅,所以我係好鍾意呢個地方。 19 佢雖然唔係人哋咩嘢華廈,但係佢有一個小小嘅公園,其實業主立案--我好似讚緊 20 我自己,業主立案法團做到好多嘢係好好嘅,佢有三個兒童遊樂場,有一個籃球 21 場,另外有兩個--一個有兩件器械,一個有三件器械嘅長者或者人嘅器械操嗰啲場 22 地。咁呢啲都--我都榮耀下我自己,其實我有部分係有參與過建議做呢啲嘢嘅,咁 23 我覺得呢個地方係我永遠安居嘅地方,我已經好心足,而且個園林都唔弱,雖然係 24 細嘅,但係佢啲樹木品類,四季都有適合生長嘅植物嘅,所以嗰個花園係好靚,我 25 認為。 26 杜淦堃資深大律師:冼女士,就呢次事件,你仲有冇其他嘢想同委員會講嘅? 27 冼女士:呢個係我嘅疑慮嚟嘅,因為我初上任嘅時候有啲好奇怪嘅事我冇辦法忘記,有一個 28 人就會嚟我度面前講,話要用淡水沖廁,我話「冇理由,政府唔准用淡水沖廁㗎 29 嘛,要用咸水㗎嘛。」咁佢就用一啲言語嘅技巧帶我提到嗰個科學井,咁我哋係個 30 屋苑冇資格去攞嗰個牌,因為我唔係醫院,唔係學校,唔係嗰啲咁大設施先可以申 31 請攞個牌去做嗰個地下井㗎嘛。咁佢見我好似講得到呢樣嘢出嚟,佢就託詞話有電 32 話就離開我,就再冇接觸過我。 33 咁第二個,就話我哋要攞番個權番嚟,我哋將八座大廈成立八個業主立案法 34

Evidential Hearing in relation to fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po

A Court Reporting Transcript by Epiq 16

團。咁我問佢點解,佢話申請做工程嘅時候如果唔超過$50 萬,就唔使同政府報, 1 咁我話「你做乜咁怕同政府報啫?我報咗畀佢,話畀佢聽我要做呢啲嘢,我起碼佢 2 知道我做乜嘢吖嘛,係咪呀?」咁佢又唔理我,又再冇嚟騷擾我。 3 第三個,就係我--因為佢告佢哋嗰個組合,佢課咗好多錢去告呢個--嗰個主 4 席,已故主席冼城卓(譯音),咁佢告佢話佢貪污,其實嚟過三次廉政公署去查 5 數,都認為冇呢啲事,但係佢繼續要告。咁我就想了解個情況,我就去聽審,咁我 6 見佢坐喺大堂度等,我就問佢,我話「點解你要告主席?」佢話「佢涉嫌貪污嘛, 7 我覺得佢乜乜乜。」我話「你告主席好似告唔入個噃」,我話「因為主席係依你哋 8 會員大會揀選落嚟嘅嘢,你撮--佢去執行㗎嘛,咁佢係有免責條款㗎嘛」,我話 9 「你告佢告唔到個喎。」佢話「點解呀?」我話「人哋係咁嘅條例㗎嘛。」咁佢話 10 「要點告呀?」我話「你一係告管理公司,一係就告晒成個業主立案法團」,咁我 11 話「你先至可以行使呢個方法囉。」佢話「我真係冇咁笨,如果業主立案法團,咪 12 要用我哋嗰啲錢,置邦咁大,我哋邊度夠錢同佢打官司呀?」咁我冇嘢好講,咁我 13 惟有入去法庭度聽,嗰個法官,原來講我同樣嘅話,我原來係啱咗嘅,佢都仍然要 14 告,咁到後來輸咗,輸咗咁佢哋個個有簽名去做呢件事嘅人,就夾30,000 鈫畀堂 15 費。但係呢個去提告嗰個人唔肯畀,咁我哋梗係追佢,我話「講明,如果你唔肯 16 畀,我釘你契㗎」,係咪?「你賣層樓你要還番畀我哋先得㗎嘛」,係咪?咁後來 17 黃-- 唔知講唔講得,當時個區議員黃碧嬌就嚟同我講,佢話「我同佢畀律師費 18 喇。」我話「咩嘢理由呀?政府畀你用嗰啲錢係愛嚟造福呢度社區嗰啲福利、活動 19 或者買啲乜嘢送畀--時節送畀老人家,或者幫一啲弱勢嘅家庭咁樣㗎嘛」,我話 20 「你點解同佢畀律師費啫?佢自己犯錯,應該佢畀,佢唔夠錢,佢可以同銀行貸款 21 嚟畀㗎嘛,你慢慢還囉」,啱唔啱?我意識就係咁囉,但係卒之都係黃碧嬌畀咗 22 嘅。咁我呢樣嘢係諗極都唔明,所以呢三個問題一直都喺度纏繞緊我,而家咁嘅情 23 況暴露出嚟,到底係咪佢哋真係部署--我多餘講嘅,唔好記錄呀大家,呢個係我多 24 餘講嘅。我覺得係咪真係咁有耐性部署咁耐,係奪咗呢個權?我就係咁諗。 25 杜淦堃資深大律師:法官閣下,我冇其他問題問冼女士。冼女士,多謝你。 26 陸啟康法官:有冇其他嘅涉事方想問問題?冼女士,我覺得你都係香港嘅驕傲。 27 冼女士:有愧,有愧。 28 陸啟康法官:你喺咁危急嘅時候,你可以諗到咁多方法,可以去保障你自己,你都好叻。同 29 埋你嘅證供幫我哋之餘,亦都可以帶一啲正能量,喺今次我哋咁悲痛嘅一件事入 30 面,帶啲正能量畀香港,我都覺得好了不起,多謝你今日出席。 31 冼女士:過譽,過譽。 32 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔該晒你。 33 冼女士:唔該晒咁多位。 34

Evidential Hearing in relation to fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po

A Court Reporting Transcript by Epiq 17

杜淦堃資深大律師:主席,因為證人嘅安排,我希望我哋今日可以提早少少我哋嘅小休,同 1 埋可以要長少少嘅時間,因為我哋想... 2 陸啟康法官:你想要幾耐時間? 3 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋可唔可以要二十五分鐘咁樣? 4 陸啟康法官:二十五,好,咁我哋二十五分鐘之後先繼續我哋嘅聆訊。 5

6 11 時03 分聆訊押後 7 11 時28 分聆訊恢復 8

9 陸啟康法官:係,杜律師。 10 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,主席,下一位證人係陳全先生。 11

12 11 時29 分宏福苑居民證人陳全先生開始作供 13

14 杜淦堃資深大律師:陳先生,你好。 15 陳先生:係。 16 杜淦堃資深大律師:你面前應該有一份聲明,麻煩你企起身讀一讀出嚟先。 17 陳先生:本人陳全聲明,本人所作的證供盡本人所知、所悉及所信,均屬真實。 18 陸啟康法官:請坐,陳生。 19 杜淦堃資深大律師:陳先生,多謝你嚟到呢一度講述當時嘅情況,資料顯示你係住喺宏昌閣 20 605 號單位,係咪? 21 陳先生:冇錯。 22 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,除咗你之外,有啲咩嘢家人同住? 23 陳先生:我同太太一齊住嘅。 24 杜淦堃資深大律師:根據你畀警方嘅口供,你當日一早,11 月26 日火警當日一早你就同一 25 啲你喺單位外工作嘅地盤,即係做緊維修嘅工人有啲接觸嘅,你可唔可以講一講畀 26 我哋聽當天早上嘅情況? 27 陳先生:喺事發當日,大約八點零九點鐘,我就聽到外面有啲聲,咁我知道有啲工人就將會 28 喺我外牆嗰度鋪紙皮石嘅,咁我就八卦,打開窗問一問啲師傅「要做幾耐呀?」咁 29 樣,咁師傅就答我就「我哋四個人就會做一日就可以完成嘞」咁樣,咁我就問咗佢 30 之後,我就「係呀?咁樣呀?」就閂番隻窗,咁就由得佢哋做,冇再問。 31 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢個係咪唯一一次你同喺外牆工作嘅工人溝通? 32 陳先生:係,冇錯。 33 杜淦堃資深大律師:好,講番火警發生嘅時候個情況,你當時係幾時,同埋點樣發覺有火 34

Evidential Hearing in relation to fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po

A Court Reporting Transcript by Epiq 18

警? 1 陳先生:發生嘅情況,就係當日下晝我都喺屋企嚟嘅,咁大約2 點51 分嘅時候,我就聞到 2 有少少味道,好似啲燒焦嘅味道,咁我就即刻就打電話去管理處通知當值嘅管理員- 3 -人員,就話畀佢聽呢個情況,希望佢哋睇下了解下咩嘢事發生。跟住我就收線,咁 4 隔咗三幾分鐘之後,就發覺外牆嗰度有啲少少啲火咁樣,我已經約莫就--我喺呢個 5 2 點51 分,感覺到即係有問題,好嚴重,應該管理處嗰度都控制唔到,可能有啲 6 嘢,咁即刻就打三條九,咁通知當值嘅警務人員,就咁樣,咁話畀佢聽個情況,同 7 埋留意到喺我廚房嗰個位置就好多煙,初頭有啲白色嘅煙就變咗做黑色嘅,好快 8 脆,好快脆,即係其實個時間都係我諗一兩分鐘嘅時間,係好快脆已經入咗屋。 9 杜淦堃資深大律師:當時你仲有冇聽到啲咩嘢聲? 10 陳先生:喺嗰段期間,我打咗畀--報咗警嘅時候,我就聽到佢哋就有啲人講嘢話「個火救唔 11 到嘞,快啲走嘞」咁樣,但係我都係喺--即係聽到窗外面嘅聲嘅啫,喺邊度講我就 12 唔知道。 13 杜淦堃資深大律師:根據我哋紀錄,我哋知道你喺下午2 點56 分就打咗個999 嘅電話,警 14 方係喺三十二秒之後接聽嘅,你講唔講到當時打呢個電話嘅時候,你同有關警員或 15 者消防員嘅對話,有冇啲咩嘢你係記得㗎? 16 陳先生:我就話咗個地址畀佢聽,話發覺有火警發生,就咁樣,同埋發覺有啲煙已經入咗我 17 屋㗎嘞已經,我同佢咁樣講,我話我都要走,我睇到個情況。 18 杜淦堃資深大律師:好,跟住你就講完呢個電話,你就開始逃離你嘅單位,係咪? 19 陳先生:係,冇錯。咁期間我... 20 杜淦堃資深大律師:你見到個情況係點? 21 陳先生:就啲煙就由初頭白色嘅煙就變晒做黑色㗎嘞,係好濃烈嘅煙嚟嘅,即係好似拍戲嗰 22 啲咁嘅情況,係好濃烈嘅煙,係黑色嘅,全部黑色嘅煙嚟,喺當日我睇到。咁其實 23 佢可能啲... 24 杜淦堃資深大律師:你頭先指嗰啲煙其實已經係攻咗入你單位定係喺走廊,定係邊度睇到? 25 陳先生:喺我廚房個位置,已經入到我玄關位置。咁我就即係諗到個情況就即係都好嚴重, 26 咁都要走㗎嘞,咁我隨即我就攞起我--因為我朝頭早我就有出過街,咁我有個袋就 27 擺喺個玄關位置嗰度,咁我隨手就攞咗個袋走,咁就我臨走嘅時候,因為我嗰個門 28 需要用鎖匙鎖,咁我再返轉頭想話鎖番--攞番條鎖匙閂個門,我都一開門嘅時候, 29 我睇到啲煙已經入到我廳嗰個範圍,好多煙,好多煙,我都唔敢再攞、再逗留,咁 30 我都閂門走,我都冇鎖門。咁期間我自己眼鏡、鎖匙我都冇攞到,就要走。 31 杜淦堃資深大律師:你啱啱講述好多煙,啲煙係喺邊度飄入嚟? 32 陳先生:喺個廚房嗰個位置。 33 杜淦堃資深大律師:走廊有冇煙,出到去? 34

Evidential Hearing in relation to fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po

A Court Reporting Transcript by Epiq 19

陳先生:出到去走廊嗰度就冇咁犀利。 1 杜淦堃資深大律師:你係點走㗎? 2 陳先生:沿住走火梯走,由6 樓一路落到地下,通往大堂嗰度出去。 3 杜淦堃資深大律師:走火途中,樓梯有冇煙? 4 陳先生:就因為可能我當其時我冇為意,因為我都趕住諗住快啲逃離嗰個現場,所以我都冇 5 留意周圍個環境,但係有少少嘅味,有少少味,就唔係話好濃烈,比起我喺屋企嗰 6 度就即係輕微咗好多㗎嘞。 7 杜淦堃資深大律師:由6 樓落到地下嘅過程,有冇見到其他人士? 8 陳先生:落樓嘅期間我就遇到一個街坊,我同佢一齊走嘅,遇到嗰個街坊一齊走,我同佢一 9 齊,咁行到半路,佢又話好似好辛苦咁,我就一、二、三就落咗去嘅時候,行行下 10 唔見佢,我就返番轉頭,我扶住佢一齊再走。 11 杜淦堃資深大律師:走嘅過程有冇聽過火警鐘? 12 陳先生:喺期間就完全冇,冇火警鐘,任何嘢都冇聽到。 13 杜淦堃資深大律師:你走到落大堂嘅情況係點,可唔可以講一講畀我哋聽? 14 陳先生:其實落到大堂嘅時候,我就唔係見好多人,咁我落到大堂,就隨即就過咗去隔籬嗰 15 座嗰度,即係宏泰嗰度,嗰個位置嗰度,咁我回望番去我宏昌閣嘅時候,睇到即係 16 當其時都係十個人都冇,即係我心諗我都即係算係早一批走落--走咗出嚟嘅人,感 17 覺,咁相當都冷清,好難去忘記嗰個情景。 18 杜淦堃資深大律師:當時我哋知道你係影咗張相嘅,我哋想你睇一睇呢張相,你前面嘅螢幕 19 睇到。呢張係你拍攝之後提供畀警方嘅相。 20 陳先生:係,嗄,嗄。 21 杜淦堃資深大律師:幾時影㗎呢張相? 22 陳先生:呢張相就係我去咗--喺宏泰閣行番出去出面嘅時候,去到頭一座,回望番去轉頭嘅 23 時間,但係嗰個火已經係燒到去正門,而我個單位就喺個火嘅背脊嚟嘅,即係換言 24 之嗰個火就係蔓延得係相當相當之快。 25 杜淦堃資深大律師:你有冇記錄呢張相係幾多點影? 26 陳先生:差唔多3 點09 分喥,好似係,3 點09 分。 27 杜淦堃資深大律師:好,講完火災當日,我想問一問你就喺火警之前,就呢個大維修嗰個有 28 關防火或者火警安全嘅情況,你有冇啲咩嘢資料可以提供畀委員會? 29 陳先生:其實即係喺呢個階段,係呢個大廈維修嘅階段,我都見過好多--有兩次,我係喺印 30 象中係見到啲工人係食煙,喺工作期間係食煙,有一次係好深刻,因為我--點解 31 呢,因為我見到佢揸住架鏟車運送啲物資嘅時候,物料,嘅時候,就啗住口煙喺度 32 做工作,另外一次就有一個就喺大廈嘅地下嘅位置,啗住口煙,但係因為呢啲就唔 33 係我嘅職責範圍,我又唔會去話人即時,係咪?所以就即係睇到都擰擰頭。所以感 34

Evidential Hearing in relation to fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po

A Court Reporting Transcript by Epiq 20

覺佢呢間承判商嗰個監管真係好大問題。 1 杜淦堃資深大律師:多謝你,有冇其他嘢你想同委員會講,用呢個機會? 2 陳先生:最令我深刻,就係我走嘅時係好靜,感覺到,完全冇任何啲警鐘聲、任何啲人叫 3 聲,或者係叫人走火警,完全都冇。落到地下嘅時候,其實應該會做得好啲嘅,譬 4 如或者係管理處又好,應該即時攞個大聲公出嚟嗌,叫啲人走呀咁樣先係吖嘛,但 5 係完全都冇呢啲咁嘅聽到,我發覺。 6 另外嗰個消防嗰個panel,點解會冇警鐘?我諗呢個日後大廈維修,或者有咁 7 嘅同樣情況,亦都需要檢討一下,冇咗一個警覺性,造成今次死傷咁嚴重,就係冇 8 咗呢個alarm,disable 咗呢個alarm panel,居然可以係完全--我哋居民完 9 全冇任何嘅信息嘅,我諗相信日後大廈維修呢一類型一定要作出檢討或者係做一個 10 預防,或者係有咩嘢器材或者係其他設施係可以替代到佢,臨時都要做得到先得, 11 咁先至防止到有同類嘅事件發生,咁呢個係我自己本人嘅感受。 12 同埋即係我自己大廈傷亡咗咁多人,自己啲街坊,我哋見到我哋都一殼眼淚, 13 真係。由當日我喺社區會堂等,我識得有個街坊,三點幾鐘,一直係咁等,等到夜 14 晚,佢個先生都未有出現過。喺日後嗰啲日子我撞到佢,就問番佢情況,先知道原 15 來佢個先生過咗身。以前見到佢哋三仔乸,佢哋三個人,有個小朋友讀緊中學,開 16 開心心,但係真係再睇唔到呢個畫面,好傷感。所以真係唔希望再有同類嘅事件發 17 生。 18 再者即係仲有一樣嘢,我都覺得我哋嗰個屋苑只係得嗰三十幾層樓咋嘛,而家 19 啲高樓大廈更加多層數,嗰個防火措施或者設施足唔足夠?我諗呢個應該喺呢個建 20 築署或者係其他啲部門亦都要一個考慮,因為有啲成六七十層都有㗎嘛,而家啲樓 21 好高、好高,佢哋走火措施或者設施足唔足夠?我諗即係啲--有認識或者有--嘅人 22 士應該會諗得到。我所講嘅就係咁多,唔該晒。 23 杜淦堃資深大律師:多謝你。主席,我冇其他問題。 24 陸啟康法官:有冇其他涉事方想問問題?如果冇,我哋當然可以理解,心情真係相當痛苦, 25 即係見到嗰日發生嘅事,但係無論點,你嘅證供對我哋係好有幫助,我哋委員會希 26 望通過呢個調查,我哋係可以令到呢啲事唔好再發生,咁我哋會盡力完成呢個調 27 查,就唔好辜負各位嘅期望嘅,多謝你今日作供。 28 杜淦堃資深大律師:多謝你,陳先生。 29

30 11 時43 分宏福苑居民證人陳全先生作供完畢 31 11 時43 分宏福苑居民證人張次濓先生開始作供 32

33 杜淦堃資深大律師:主席,下一位證人係張次濓先生。張先生,你好,我知你行動少少唔方 34

Evidential Hearing in relation to fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po

A Court Reporting Transcript by Epiq 21

便隻腳,如果主席唔介意,我諗你可以坐喺度讀出有關嘅聲明。前面有張紙,有個 1 聲明,麻煩你讀出嚟。 2 張先生:本人張次濓聲明,本人所作的證供盡本人所知、所悉及所信,均屬證實。 3 杜淦堃資深大律師:張先生,你好,資料顯示你係住喺宏泰1006 室嘅。 4 張先生:係,啱嘅。 5 杜淦堃資深大律師:屋企除咗你,仲有邊位家人係同住喺呢個地址? 6 張先生:同住係我同我太太,同埋我個19 歲嘅仔。 7 杜淦堃資深大律師:你幾時搬入宏福苑㗎? 8 張先生:我係第一手搬入去,係應該1983 年我就已經入咗伙,住到而家。 9 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋知道火警當日你同太太都係喺單位裏面嘅,你可唔可以講一講你哋 10 首先點樣發覺係有火警嘅? 11 張先生:當時我喺屋企瞓緊晏覺,咁我個電話個WhatsApp 就響咗,咁我係好清楚記得,因 12 為有時間顯示嘅,係應該係3 點07 分收到個訊息,由朋友影畀我一幅相,就係 13 「宏福苑好大煙」,佢打訊息畀我就話「喂,宏福苑好大煙,你睇下咩嘢事。」咁 14 我就即刻開咗個窗,就望落去睇下,因為我06 單位就係對住宏昌、宏盛嘅,中間 15 有一個迴旋處,一個垃圾收集站,嗰啲大型嘅物件收集站,咁當時我見到個垃圾站 16 著咗火,咁有消防車停喺度,就係著咗兩眼紅燈嘅,但係冇警號嘅,即係冇「嗚 17 嗚」聲嘅,咁又聽唔到有警鐘聲,亦聽唔到有人大聲嗌「火燭」,咁我就係以為佢 18 燒垃圾站,咁我當時我同老婆講,我話「咦,個垃圾站著咗火喎」,我話「咦」, 19 我話「都幾大火喎」咁樣。跟住我再望遠啲,望過去宏昌閣嗰度,就見到個天上面 20 就有啲火屑飄落嚟,即係好多啲火點嗰啲,燒著嗰啲網嗰啲,飄落嚟我個單位嗰 21 度,就响我個網嗰度黐咗喺度,咁當時我就一望,我話「老婆」,我話「唔掂嘞, 22 我著咗火呀,我窗門著咗火喎」咁樣,我話「我哋去救火呀」咁樣。咁我叫我老婆 23 去廁所度就攞水出嚟,咁佢搵啲桶就裝水出嚟,我就打開個廳個窗,當時我擒咗出 24 去出面嘅,就扶住個棚架嚟係救火,搵水淋熄咗,咁淋到去--我一路行到去尾嗰 25 度,我左手邊就望到係1005 個單位,嗰個廁所個窗嗰度嗰個網係著咗火嘅,係好 26 大火嘅,跟住我再行番返嚟就望到我1007 個單位嗰個睡房又係著咗火,嗰個網, 27 即係講個網,裏面應該係冇著火嘅,跟住上面有好多火跌落嚟,個火屑就跌落我個 28 頭嗰度㗎嘞,咁我頭髮都燒燶咗少少,我當時我一手就撥開頭髮,跟住我就擒咗返 29 去個單位裏面,我話「老婆,唔得嘞,我要走嘞」,咁閂埋窗,咁我哋就準備開門 30 走。 31 杜淦堃資深大律師:當時你係拍咗條片嘅,係咪? 32 張先生:係,個片我哋都有睇,當時係冇辦法走,係一分鐘時間,我哋可以睇睇個片都得 33 㗎。 34

Evidential Hearing in relation to fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po

A Court Reporting Transcript by Epiq 22

杜淦堃資深大律師:睇睇個片。喺前面。 1 張先生:呢一個就係我望落去嗰個垃圾站嘅,當時我發覺就打開個窗望落去個情況就咁樣, 2 隔個網影落去就都幾大火下嘅。 3 (播放短片) 4 〔男聲:嘩,...(聽不清)陰公,...(聽不清)哎吔,我哋出面著咗火呀,媽咪,攞水 5 救,快啲,嗱,嗱嗱聲,裝桶水畀我。〕 6 張先生:係,咁我老婆攞水,咁我就擒咗出去棚架度嘞。 7 〔男聲:哎吔,死嘞,我屋企著咗火呀,仆街呀呢次。哎,媽咪,攞水嚟,打電話去管理 8 處,你而家即刻打電話管理處。 9 女聲:係,知道。〕 10 (短片播放完畢) 11 張先生:咁呢個係第一個片段嚟嘅。 12 杜淦堃資深大律師:之後我哋都會播一啲相片同片段,因為你當時好機警咁樣樣就拍低咗一 13 啲嘅情況,但係就呢一段,你嘅紀錄顯示到係幾多點拍,你記唔記得? 14 張先生:有冇片睇?你有片睇? 15 杜淦堃資深大律師:頭先嗰條片。頭先嗰條片你記唔記得幾時拍? 16 張先生:我就係--我睇嗰個WhatsApp 嗰陣時,因為個朋友send 畀我,15 點07 分,咁 17 我收到之後,我即刻打開個窗,就立即影㗎嘞,咁應該係一兩分鐘時間,我諗09 18 分咁上下,一兩分鐘時間。 19 杜淦堃資深大律師:好,咁當你發覺唔可以撲滅呢個火種嘅時候,你就開始逃離單位,同太 20 太,係咪? 21 張先生:係,冇錯,就準備走㗎嘞。 22 杜淦堃資深大律師:可唔可以講述一下跟住發生咩嘢事? 23 張先生:我個門鐘就用個小米嗰個門鐘,一郁就會影到個影像嘅,咁我開咗門出去嗰陣時, 24 同老婆走,咁我就諗起1005 有一個單位,咁就新搬嚟嘅住客應該住咗年零嘅啫, 25 裝修過嘅,咁我後來先知道佢姓葉嘅,咁就佢係行動不便,就同我咁上下年紀,73 26 歲。咁我當時我就諗起佢喺度,我就拍門,就睇下佢喺唔喺裏面,咁我拍門嗰陣時 27 我就諗過「你唔好應門」,個心就諗,咁佢如果唔好應門嘅話,佢冇應門就證明佢 28 唔喺屋企㗎嘞,咁點不知佢應咗道門,就開咗個門出嚟,我就話「走嘞,走火警, 29 火燭呀」,咁我就叫我老婆帶佢响嗰個防火門度走,因為佢05 一出嚟,右手邊就 30 係嗰個防火門樓梯嚟嘅。咁佢開咗門之後,就已經同我講話「唔得嘞」,嗰個阿姑 31 話「嘩,好大煙」,佢話「好似嗰啲雪糕筒咁卷上嚟,個煙呀,一路卷上嚟。」咁 32 佢即刻閂埋道門嘞。 33 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想畀一條片你睇,呢條片我哋喺我哋委員會聆訊開案陳詞嘅時候睇過 34

Evidential Hearing in relation to fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po

A Court Reporting Transcript by Epiq 23

嘅,我想你睇一睇番呢條片先。 1 張先生:係,okay。 2 (播放短片) 3 〔女聲:嘩,對面--對面...(聽不清)冇人呀,前面嗰間冇人呀,...(聽不清)〕 4 (短片播放完畢) 5 張先生:呢段片就係15 點16 分,我門鐘顯示嘅,我就開咗道門,準備逃生,咁當時係完全 6 係冇煙嘅,係好清晰嘅嗰個走廊,係睇得到嘅,係。 7 杜淦堃資深大律師:好,跟住發生咩嘢事? 8 張先生:跟住佢拍咗門之後,我叫阿姑出嚟,咁開咗個門,嗰個防火門就好大煙,咁我跟住 9 叫我老婆,我話「你帶嗰個阿姑响另一個消防門」,因為我係做建築,我知道我哋 10 嘅設計係叫做鉸剪梯,喺我呢道門個樓梯有煙,對面後面嗰道門嘅樓梯未必會有煙 11 嘅,咁因為我着緊鞋,咁我就叫我老婆帶佢去咁,我老婆就可能心急,佢一個人就 12 走過去,咁佢一轉咗彎之後,就好快,跟住走番轉頭就同我講,佢話「唔得嘞,唔 13 得嘞,好大煙呀」咁樣,跟住我就見到佢後面就係一拃黑煙跟住佢嚟嘅,跟住佢尾 14 過嚟㗎嘞,嗰陣時係咁情況嘅。 15 杜淦堃資深大律師:嗰陣應該係頭先我哋睇到呢個貓眼片段之後嘅冇幾耐? 16 張先生:應該係一分鐘時間喥。 17 杜淦堃資深大律師:當時即係兩條樓梯都有煙? 18 張先生:係,係,兩條樓梯都有煙嘅。 19 杜淦堃資深大律師:據你就當時嗰個情況嘅了解,你有冇辦法得知啲煙係點樣進入個樓梯? 20 張先生:呢個我係唔清楚,不過我估計,應該就係個𨋢口對正嗰個窗門,因為我哋個窗門對 21 正,就上面有個氣窗,大概係六吋至八吋喥,就可以推出去嘅,咁嗰個氣窗就我見 22 經常都係開咗嘅,即係個走廊焗,咁可能因為嗰陣時話煙通效應,唔知係咪著咗 23 火,响嗰度個窗攻入嚟,就唔知係咪有可能係嗰個窗嘅。 24 杜淦堃資深大律師:你喺火警之前見到嗰啲氣窗大部分時間係打開定係閂埋,定係兩... 25 張先生:係打開,因為就算你閂埋都冇用,因為嗰個走廊好焗吖嘛,咁都係經常會打開咗。 26 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋可以播之後嗰段片想畀你睇一睇。 27 張先生:Okay,好。 28 (播放短片) 29 〔女聲:入嚟吖,入嚟吖。〕 30 (短片播放完畢) 31 張先生:呢個片就15 點17 分,就一分鐘後嘅啫,咁我就將隔籬個阿姑就帶咗去我個單位, 32 入門口影到已經係冇得走㗎嘞,個煙係好犀利,係冇得走,一定入單位度自保、自 33 救咁樣嘅情況。 34

Evidential Hearing in relation to fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po

A Court Reporting Transcript by Epiq 24

杜淦堃資深大律師:返到入去你點做? 1 張先生:返到入去咁就我同我老婆仍然係救火,咁打開個窗,咁就我老婆一樣係攞啲水出 2 嚟,咁我就淋落去樓下嘅,因為希望淋濕啲網,就個火唔好咁大,唔好咁快燒上 3 嚟。咁嗰個阿姑因為佢不良於行,就佢係坐咗喺我個廳嗰度,咁我老婆又搵啲布, 4 又塞下啲門罅咁樣,即係做呢個動作,一路去淋水,咁淋到大概係廿分鐘喥,就突 5 然間我單位就停咗電嘅,就黑𠵼𠵼,咁只係靠感覺去,咁仍然係救緊嘅,咁再救咗 6 一段時間之後,我老婆就大聲嗌,佢話「老公」,佢話「冇水呀,停水呀」咁樣, 7 咁我知道我哋個設計,我係用緊個水箱水,係天台個水箱水,10 樓,咁個水箱應該 8 係冇水㗎嘞,咁聽到「噓」--個水喉就「噓噓」聲,「噓噓」聲,即係有啲氣出 9 嚟,冇水,咁我當時我問我老婆,我話「仲有幾多水?」咁樣,佢話「一桶」,我 10 話「嗰桶唔好搞嘞,要嚟救命嘅。」咁當時我就閂埋個窗,就坐咗我哋個廳度,就 11 自保。 12 杜淦堃資深大律師:你--我哋知道你有打過999 救助嘅,你係幾時打電話去? 13 張先生:呢個我係唔清楚,咁我老婆又打過,我老--我又打過,咁嗰個過嚟單位嗰個阿姑佢 14 都有打過嘅。咁佢啲屋企人亦不停打電話入嚟我哋--我屋企人都係嘅,咁佢哋其實 15 都有幫我打嘅,咁消防員就亦不時覆番我電話嘅,就問我個單位「你有幾多人,幾 16 多歲,男定女,而家喺咩嘢位置?」咁樣,就不停咁同我保持聯絡,我諗一個鐘頭 17 起碼都有四五個電話打畀我或者我老婆,或者係嗰個隔籬嗰個阿姑嘅。 18 杜淦堃資深大律師:跟住之後我哋知道你都有做低錄影嘅紀錄,你再有拍片嘅,我想你睇一 19 睇。 20 張先生:係。(播放短片)咁呢個時間,就係大概係四點零五點鐘喥,因為嗰陣時好黑,咁 21 我就想睇下外面個情況係點樣,咁打開個窗,我就搵個手機影影,呢個就係1007 22 嘅單位個睡房外面嘅,係著咗火嘅。 23 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋睇多一次,係,係,畀你嘅。 24 張先生:係,1007 著咗火嘅,1007 嗰個睡房個單位嘅。 25 杜淦堃資深大律師:你可唔可以講得到畀我哋聽,你望住火勢比較大嗰度。 26 張先生:係。 27 杜淦堃資深大律師:嗰個方向見到著咗嗰度係顯示咗啲乜嘢?喺邊個位著咗火? 28 張先生:1007 係睡房外面嗰個棚架著咗火嘅。 29 杜淦堃資深大律師:當時你屋企裏面應該都係有煙嘅,係咪? 30 張先生:係好大煙,咁我哋已經係做咗啲係塞門罅,但係個問題都塞唔到咁多,因為個煙就 31 我估計就應該喺廚房嘅排氣扇或者係嗰個抽油煙機嗰度入嚟,响嗰度攻入嚟嘅,就 32 好大煙,當時就已經係黑晒。咁到咗五點鐘喥,我老婆就同我講,佢話「不如咁樣 33 喇」,佢話「我匿入去廁所,你同嗰個阿姑就匿入去睡房先」咁樣,就分咗半桶水 34

Evidential Hearing in relation to fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po

A Court Reporting Transcript by Epiq 25

畀我哋,我就匿入去入面,就係等救援。咁當時嗰個環境好惡劣嘅,我哋係睇唔到 1 嘢,係好黑㗎,咁嗰條毛巾濕咗水擺咗落嘴嗰度係好快就會乾嘅,即係我諗幾分鐘 2 又乾,又要濕水。咁當時我就坐响個地下嗰度,因為個阿姑個腳唔方便,佢坐唔到 3 地下,我就安排佢坐喺我張牀嗰度,我仲叫佢,我話「不如你瞓低」咁樣,咁佢就 4 冇瞓到嘅,佢一路坐响度,我一路畀毛巾佢,就幫佢濕水,就响度等救援。 5 杜淦堃資深大律師:好,直至到大概幾時你哋先被救出,你知唔知道? 6 張先生:救過程之中我都想講一講,係話我哋絕望嘅時候就應該係六點半,個人已經係放棄 7 咗,咁點解呢?嗰個阿姑同我講,佢話「張生,我唞唔到氣呀,我好辛苦呀,我頂 8 唔順呀。」咁同我講呢啲說話。當時我自己都迷迷糊糊,我都話「我都好辛苦。」 9 當時我老婆聽到我哋講嘢,咁佢响廁所度就同我哋祈禱,鼓勵我哋,佢話「我哋一 10 定得救㗎,將我哋交託畀天父。」咁講嗰句說話。 11 咁消防員畀電話嗰陣時,我係有發過啲脾氣,佢又係問我一個問我一個問題, 12 「又係你有幾多人呀?喺邊度?」當時我話「你問嚟問去都係問呢啲問題,都唔嚟 13 救我哋,而家我印象中係死咗四十三人嘅,因為我睇到上網,你再唔上嚟,你同我 14 加多三個人上去吖,四十六人。」我就收咗線。 15 一路响咁嘅情況之下迷迷糊糊,就到八點鐘,因為我老婆係比較清醒,佢後嚟 16 話畀我聽話「八點鐘。」當其時八點鐘,我就聽到係有人敲門聲,但我個人就好 17 攰,就想瞓覺,就唔想起身去開門,咁我仲叫我老婆去開門,我話「喂,點解你唔 18 去開門呀?」即係其實我嗰陣時都係瘟瘟沌沌。咁我再聽到個門好大聲之後,我突 19 然間心就諗一諗「喂,唔得喎,我道門幾千鈫喎,你撞我道門,撞爛點樣呀?」咁 20 樣,我當時成個人就札醒咗,我走去開門,當時我出呢度就係睇唔到嘢嘅,只係靠 21 摸出去,摸到個鋼琴,知道呢個鋼琴,再摸下呢個係餐檯,我遞直隻手向前,摸摸 22 下,就摸到道門,就焫手嘅,一摸道門就焫手嘅,係成隻手縮番轉頭,跟住我想去 23 開把門鎖,但係開唔到個門鎖,好緊,即係撳唔到落去,跟住我就聽到撞門聲,我 24 就大聲講,我話「喂,你唔好撞我道門喇,唔好撞我把鎖,好貴㗎,幾千鈫㗎,我 25 畀密碼你開呀。」當時我好清楚講呢句說話嘅。 26 咁當時呯一聲道門就開咗,咁一個熱氣就攻入嚟,咁我當時就好奇怪,我望到 27 係有五六個天使喺度,因為我係基督教,我話「點解會有咁多天使喺度嘅呢?」咁 28 樣,因為天使個頭有光環嘅,咁原來係消防員頭頂眼燈嚟㗎,我係睇到頭頂眼燈, 29 我見到天使,當時我自己諗,我係唔係死咗咁樣,因為點解咁快見到天使咁樣。突 30 然間個消防員就喝我一聲,佢話「有冇人受傷?嗰啲人喺邊度?」咁我又醒咗。咁 31 醒咗我就都係迷迷糊糊,究竟畀邊個走先呢?我喺門口,係唔係我走先咁樣,我帶 32 咗阿姑過嚟,我有責任去保護佢,不如畀阿姑走先喇,我諗得好快當時,唔得喎, 33 如果阿姑走先嘅,咁𢭃住佢行,佢不良於行嘅,塞咗喺樓梯我兩公婆又點樣咁樣, 34

Evidential Hearing in relation to fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po

A Court Reporting Transcript by Epiq 26

咁又等死,唔掂,我就話「救我老婆先」,因為我老婆係最清醒,我話「廁所有個 1 人,救咗佢先。」咁突然間我聽到有把聲,佢話「我喺你旁邊」,原來我老婆喺我 2 側邊,我都睇唔到,「我喺側邊。」跟住個消防員一手就擝咗佢走。跟住佢再問我 3 「仲有人咩?」我話「睡房有一個。」佢又入咗去睡房,就𢭃咗個阿姑出嚟就走 4 咗。 5 到最後嗰陣時我已經係冇晒力,我第一句說話同消防員講,我話「你有冇氧氣 6 呀?我唞唔到氣,好辛苦。」咁消防員就畀咗個罩吸住我個嘴,就笠住我個頭,係 7 冇氧氣嘅,一個罩嚟嘅,即係透明嗰啲罩咁吸住個嘴,即係吸番自己嘅空氣。佢就 8 叫我,佢話「你趴喺我個背脊度,我孭你走。」當時我都趴唔到嘅,隻腳都冇力, 9 手都冇力,沓咗喺度。咁嘗試睇下,睇唔到嘢,佢响後樓梯就帶我走,消防員都好 10 辛苦,因為落咗幾級佢就已經跌低,連我都跌咗响嗰個樓梯度。呢個景象我係到而 11 家都係抽唔番出嚟嘅,喺我心目中,係一個歷史嚟。咁當時沖落嚟個樓梯水就好似 12 我哋去溫泉嗰啲水,好熱好熱嘅。個消防員話「你再爬上嚟。」我爬唔上去,我就 13 想話幫下手扶下啲嘢去爬上去佢嘅背脊,但係我摸落埲牆係焫手嘅,係冇辦法嘅。 14 如是者我爬咗上去佢又行幾步又跌,我又感覺上有人拉住我隻腳喺樓梯度扯落去, 15 咁扯落9 樓嗰度平嗰啲,佢又叫我爬上去,我又爬上去,咁行行下之後佢都有機會 16 又跌我落嚟,如是者都扯下落呀,咁樣就咗幾層,落咗幾層我就問佢,我話「仲有 17 幾快到呀?」,佢話「就快,就快。」當時我就想同佢講話「你唔好理我,你擺低 18 我响度,我好眼瞓,你走喇,我好眼瞓、好攰呀。」即係嗰陣時我意識係已經咁 19 樣。咁始終就落咗落去之後,就佢叫我遞起隻腳,佢話「你遞唔遞到隻腳呀?」咁 20 我嘗試,但係我唔知隻腳係碰到啲乜嘢嘢,只係碰到一條條圓形,我感覺上好係消 21 防喉,係唔係都唔知,我係碰到啲嘢,咁到時落咗樓下之後,就有救護員就抬咗一 22 路咁入去ICU。 23 我喺呢度就係好多謝消防員,真係好勇敢。入到ICU,個情況真係好恐怖,呢 24 度我都唔想講即係救我嗰個情況,係好恐怖嘅,係好多謝佢哋救番我條命,呢個我 25 好真心講。 26 杜淦堃資深大律師:麻煩你,我哋仲睇到有啲其他嘅相片同影片係當時記錄低你屋企個情況 27 嘅。你知唔知呢個係邊個拍攝㗎? 28 張先生:呢個應該係--好似唔係我嗰個單位嚟個喎,因為好似冇咁多嘢。其實而家呢個情況 29 就同我屋企差唔多,應該係個房嚟嘅,整咗發泡膠,呢個我冇乜印象,呢個我冇乜 30 印象我都。 31 杜淦堃資深大律師:好,我哋再去睇一睇你講完當日嘅情況之後,因為你本身係做過工程。 32 張先生:係。 33 杜淦堃資深大律師:你退咗休未? 34

Evidential Hearing in relation to fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po

A Court Reporting Transcript by Epiq 27

張先生:我就退咗休,我係18 年係退咗休。 1 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係我相信因為你對維修工程比較敏感,我都想你幫一幫我哋。喺火災 2 之前就大廈維修嘅情況,包括一啲防火嘅安排或者措施,你有冇一啲嘅觀察或者你 3 之前有冇提出過任何嘅問題? 4 張先生:有嘅,我其實都係有做啲嘢係幫啲居民嘅。咁因為就新法團嗰陣時,我都提出咗有 5 好多嘢嘅。同佢講過,我話「一次過八座樓圍一個網嚟做,相當危險,如果一著 6 火,就會火燒連環船。」我提出過呢個問題嘅。呢個問題我相信係嗰個新嘅業主立 7 案法團都應該會同政府反映過嘅,我知道嘅。我都建議過話「可唔可以做第1 座、 8 第4 座,留番兩座先?咁做完之後再做第2、第5 座,隔疏佢」咁樣,呢個我有提 9 出。 10 發泡膠我亦講過,同埋嗰個生口,喺樓梯個生口我亦都提出過,即係我都有同 11 法團提出過,同宏業去提出過嘅,係咁樣做係唔得嘅,係唔安全嘅,同埋就係食煙 12 嘅問題。同埋嗰啲生口嗰度我老婆就係做健身,佢經常鍾意跑樓梯嘅,就落去地下 13 跑到上三十幾樓咁樣,差唔多一個禮拜都兩三日,我同佢係有做過健身,我記得我 14 係10 樓同11 樓之間就有個生口嘅,仲有啲係叫可樂樽就擺咗喺度,就裝咗有啲 15 水,裏面就好多煙頭,同埋打開嗰個樓梯門,因為我哋係唔食煙嘅,所以我聞到有 16 好多煙味,呢啲情況我係同呢個宏業都講過。同埋因為以前我影咗有啲煙盒喺個棚 17 架度,都落去宏建閣嗰個宏業嗰度同佢哋傾,我話「有煙盒喺度,好危險個喎。」 18 佢哋只係答我話會跟進,跟住佢話「個煙盒喺棚架嗰度,都唔係代表係我哋啲工人 19 喺度食煙嘅,可能會係樓上掟落嚟」,答咗我。跟住之後過咗幾個月,佢就上嚟我 20 度拆啲冷氣就要維修個窗台,咁拆咗個冷氣之後,响我哋窗台都發現有個煙盒擺咗 21 喺度,當時我都係同宏業反映過,咁佢有管工亦影咗片嘅,我同講話「擺喺嗰個窗 22 台嘅煙盒就肯定樓上掟唔到入嚟嘅」,我同佢講過,呢個情況我都同佢傾過。 23 杜淦堃資深大律師:發泡膠問題你同邊個反映過? 24 張先生:同呢個新嘅法團,因為好多時佢哋話喺公園就夜晚要坐埋一班人喺度傾偈,即係好 25 似話大家傾偈咁樣,有咩嘢就可以大家去傾,我哋都同佢講過啲發泡膠即係咁樣唔 26 得,啲生口,幾棟嘅樓一齊維修,佢哋應該係有投訴過,即係我知道佢哋有做過嘢 27 嘅。 28 杜淦堃資深大律師:多謝你。除咗火警當日嘅事情,你之前一啲嘅觀察或者投訴,你有冇其 29 他嘢想同委員會講? 30 張先生:要講嘅話,就係希望將個事實反映出去,就搵出個真相,因為希望政府就係面對呢 31 個事件,因為投訴過咁多次,政府部門都好似係又話唔關呢個部門事,嗰個唔關呢 32 個部門事,我哋宏福苑嘅居民其實就好無奈,呢個犧牲真係好大,死咗一百六十幾 33 人,全部都係家破,甚至有人亡,呢個代價相當大。先呼籲咗政府,而家先至將人 34

Evidential Hearing in relation to fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po

A Court Reporting Transcript by Epiq 28

哋啲棚架落晒網,又話要防火,做咗好多嘢,甚至而家又去告人,咁呢個代價真係 1 相當大,希望委員會就搵出呢個真相,希望政府可以承擔面對,呢件事係唔可以再 2 發生,再發生真係唔掂。 3 我亦希望就喺呢度同宏福苑嘅居民講,我哋要振作啲、要努力啲,要渡過呢個 4 難關。真係好慘、好慘,我係其中一個受害人,我而家都要睇精神科,我嘅健康係 5 輸晒嘅。以前退咗休我仲有兼職,我都有兩萬零鈫一個月,而家我返唔到工,我老 6 婆教瑜伽都教唔到,所以我哋個家庭其實都係影響好大,整個影響好大。同埋消防 7 員、救護人員嗰啲我好感謝佢,救咗我一命。同埋就感謝天父,祈禱救咗我哋嘅 8 命。同埋話傳媒方面,我都好多謝佢哋,佢哋好努力去有好多真相同我哋報導,但 9 係我希望我一陣間走嘅時候,就佢哋唔好訪問我,因為我會再次傷害,同埋對宏福 10 苑嘅居民係好傷害嘅,有機會嘅話我先慢慢將件事講出嚟。其實呢件事可以拍一套 11 戲出嚟嘅,我希望傳媒體諒我,就等我安安靜靜走咗,如果唔係又傷害多一次。多 12 謝。 13 杜淦堃資深大律師:我相信傳媒朋友聽到你嘅呼籲。主席,我哋冇其他問題,多謝。 14 陸啟康法官:其他各個涉事方有冇問題想問? 15 譚俊傑大律師:張生,我係代表幾位居民嘅,我有少少問題想澄清。你頭先啱啱最後嗰度講 16 到,就話你去咗投訴幾次,跟住之後講到啲政府部門,我想釐清番你係向邊一位投 17 訴,向宏業投訴定係向咗一啲政府部門投訴? 18 張先生:宏業我亦有投訴過,我就同呢個新嘅立案法團亦係大家討論呢啲問題,我就係記得 19 係話有時啲政府部門嗰啲會議我哋都有提出過,即係响會堂開啲會議咁樣,甚至係 20 話嗰啲係區議員咁樣,我哋都講過呢啲問題嘅。 21 譚俊傑大律師:你自己又向邊度投訴? 22 張先生:我自己只係向宏業同埋呢個新嘅立案法團,佢哋會覆我嘅,新嘅立案法團又覆過我 23 話佢哋去投訴過,就係咁樣嘅。 24 譚俊傑大律師:我明白,冇其他問題。 25 陸啟康法官:其他涉事方有冇其他問題?咁我哋聽得係非常之清楚,我哋深知道今日要你再 26 講番呢件事係相當之困難,但係我可以同你講,你嘅證供係對我哋嘅調查非常之重 27 要,我哋會盡我哋全力去搵出個事實嘅真相,令到呢個悲劇唔好再發生。今日好感 28 謝你好勇敢上嚟,一個咁慘痛嘅經歷再講一次,但係你嘅證供對我哋嚟講係非常重 29 要。好多謝你今日出席。 30 張先生:多謝晒,其實我今日想同我太太出席,因為我唔想佢再次傷害,所以我唔畀佢出 31 席。多謝晒,唔好意思。 32 陸啟康法官:我相信你頭先同傳媒呼籲,我諗佢哋都會聽到。多謝你。 33 張先生:係,多謝各位。 34

Evidential Hearing in relation to fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po

A Court Reporting Transcript by Epiq 29

陸啟康法官:多謝。 1

2 12 時12 分宏福苑居民證人張次濂先生作供完畢 3 12 時12 分宏福苑居民證人鄭敬熙先生𨴂始作供 4

5 杜淦堃資深大律師:主席,下一位證人係鄭敬熙先生。鄭先生,麻煩你讀出你面前嘅聲明。 6 鄭先生:Okay。本人鄭敬熙,聲明本人所作之證供盡本人所知、所悉、所信,均屬真實。 7 杜淦堃資深大律師:鄭先生,多謝你。 8 陸啟康法官:請坐,鄭生。 9 杜淦堃資深大律師:資料顯示你係住喺宏泰閣108 號單位,所以你嘅單位係比較低層嘅? 10 鄭先生:係,冇錯。 11 杜淦堃資深大律師:火警嘅時候,你有冇屋企人同住? 12 鄭先生:火警當日就冇,因為我太太係好幸運,佢喺11 月25 號朝頭早我送咗佢去中國內地 13 旅遊,我個仔喺25 號嗰晚佢亦都留喺朋友屋企,屋企只係剩番我同埋我隻貴婦狗 14 拖肥。 15 杜淦堃資深大律師:喺大維修嘅時候,你對於維修期間可能導致火警風險呢一個範疇,你有 16 冇啲咩觀察或者作出過任何投訴? 17 鄭先生:我曾經就喺2024 年大概都係復活節前後,同埋係喺呢個12 月29 號過年之前, 18 咁通常我都注意下我窗邊,因為窗邊隔籬佢有鑿啲牆仔,我個窗所有地方佢都係用 19 發泡膠鋪滿咗,變咗我感覺上嚟講,發泡膠就係一個易燃嘅物體,係非常之有易燃 20 嘅風險,故此嚟講,我好多時都會睇,睇邊啲地方呢?睇我廚房窗對出有個我哋常 21 叫話所謂係天井位;跟住我個廁所旁邊有個窗,我亦都會開窗嚟睇下嗰個地方有冇 22 垃圾;跟住我個房窗,大房窗旁邊常常見到好多垃圾,咁樣亦都見到有好多用剩 23 嘅,因為佢要批--𠝹嗰啲防火膠鋪嗰啲窗門,好多嗰啲樹葉都會撇落喺嗰個棚架旁 24 邊、天井旁邊,甚至行嘅橋旁邊,我唔記得曾經係唔係一兩次或者三次,因為我知 25 道宏福苑係由呢個宏業做,咁佢有個通訊地方,我用WhatsApp 同佢哋有一位何先 26 生話「唔掂喎啲嘢,你可唔可以教育下你啲員工每日收工之前做一個清理?起碼嚟 27 講我作為一個用者、一個住戶比較安心啲。」跟住佢一位地盤嘅主管譚生亦都答覆 28 我,佢話「佢會安排。」事實上呢件事佢哋有做,兩次佢都有做,都有即時清潔啲 29 垃圾同埋清潔埋嗰啲易燃嘅發泡膠。咁變咗嚟講,不過呢個習慣耐唔耐我都會㧬開 30 個窗嚟睇睇,如果有問題嘅話,我一定會通知佢哋。我感覺上嚟講,發泡膠對於我 31 喺個大維修裏面係一個好關注、好關注嘅易燃風險,其中一個好大嘅risk 畀到我 32 嘅,但係我會...(聽不清),不過而家嚟講冇機會已經。 33 杜淦堃資深大律師:除咗見到有啲發泡膠或者其他易燃物件喺天井嗰度,你知唔知道嗰度會 34

Evidential Hearing in relation to fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po

A Court Reporting Transcript by Epiq 30

唔會有工人聚集嘅平時? 1 鄭先生:我平時見到佢哋做嘢、聽到佢哋做嘢,甚至有時我開窗睇到佢哋做緊嘢,但係冇見 2 到佢做其他所謂嘅食煙呢啲嘢我冇見到,如果我有見到,我即時會鬧佢添,即時要 3 佢stop,即時會report 畀佢宏業主管聽,因為呢個係導致到我係第一個受害 4 者,我一定會做呢樣嘢。 5 杜淦堃資深大律師:就你嗰個單位而言,你記唔記得大概幾時被發泡膠遮蓋住嗰啲窗門? 6 鄭先生:大概都係喺呢個12 月、11 月之間--之後芒嘅,但係因為佢哋已經鑿緊石仔,喺嗰 7 個時候我哋開始咗啲masking cap 捆晒啲邊,因為啲塵好犀利,係咪先?變咗有 8 陣時好似喺屋屋嚟講,好似喺沙漠裏面透唔到氣咁嘅款,除咗靠廁所個窗,因為個 9 抽氣扇佢唔敢封之外,初初佢話想封埋,我話「封埋變咗我點呀?」遲早變咗喺個 10 所謂叫做係真空嘅地方,咁我死緊,係咪先?故此,佢就冇封嗰個廁所抽氣嗰度, 11 加埋廚房嗰個抽氣扇上面佢都係冇封嘅,嗰兩個地方我耐唔耐我都會開風扇,開自 12 己抽氣,係咪先?等有一個流通性。 13 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想問你火警當日,其實嗰啲發泡膠係唔全部都仲係遮蓋住你個單位嘅 14 窗戶,定係...(聽不清) 15 鄭先生:冇錯,冇錯,我個窗自從佢用發泡膠覆蓋之後,直至我喺11 月26 號大概都係十二 16 點三十幾分,我同隻狗落樓下,仍然係封閉住嘅。 17 杜淦堃資深大律師:好,我想你講一講火警發生當日嘅情況。你係喺邊個地方知道宏福苑發 18 生咗火警? 19 鄭先生:頭先我講過,當日我喺12 點--我太太就喺25 號出咗國內旅行,我個仔就喺出面 20 留宿跟住返工,冇返嚟。我就喺12 點38 分,我習慣性逢係出門口我都要影張相 21 嘅,當其時就係12 點38 分,我隻狗落到樓下,往陣時佢就好想出嘅,就直接行去 22 宏泰閣後面大小二便,跟住就上樓。當日佢有一個怪現象,真係嘅,佢就繞過咗宏 23 昌閣,喺後面出咗個後閘,跟住當日因為天氣好靚,就喺個元洲仔公園玩耍、影 24 相,我有影埋。跟住佢亦都唔肯返屋企住,跟住上番去天橋,過埋個林村河,去到 25 對面河邊,沿住北上去嗰個大埔中心,都唔肯返去,係咁樣繞過一輪番之後,就返 26 番轉頭就過番去嗰個寶湖,出呢個廣福道。當時我諗住都玩夠,幾個鐘頭,係咪 27 先?就帶佢啱啱返到去宏福苑隔籬個廣福邨,3 點鐘就聽到消防車聲,消防車成日 28 聽到係咪先?只不過經過。點知一離開個廣福邨街市,見到出面好多人喺度影相, 29 我亦都唔執輸,又都喺度影相,只係見到喺遠處,因為我哋畀間學校、畀嗰個停車 30 場遮住咗,只係見到一股好大嘅黑煙,喺好遠、好遠,大概都係五六座之間嘅方 31 向。變咗嚟講我嗰陣時都唔確定係邊度火燭,只知道應該喺嗰附近,跟住行番去我 32 哋宏福苑嗰條馬路嗰度,遠處見到宏昌閣嗰陣時都係好大黑煙,有少少火,見到有- 33 -可能頭先我聽到嘅消防車已經到咗,亦都有警員喺度,咁小火一定救到。見到當時 34

Evidential Hearing in relation to fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po

A Court Reporting Transcript by Epiq 31

嘅邨民好多都好似當拍戲咁樣影相,我亦都唔執輸。 1 不過越影越唔對,個方向就當其時由呢個第7、第6 座咁樣吹過嚟,跟住5、 2 4、3、2、1,大概當其時我去到嗰陣時15 點03 分,我越行就越入,跟住越行就 3 越出,見到個方向,十零分鐘之後,大概都係十零分鐘之後,嘩,啲火呯聲升上 4 去,好似煙囪效應,嗰陣時唔走唔得。我一路行就一路同邨民講「快啲走呀,你唔 5 走,你分分鐘冇命呀。」我見到有啲姐姐拖住嗰啲婆婆喺嗰個--你知道宏福苑同廣 6 福邨之間有條天橋嘅,就坐喺度,我話「你唔好坐嘞,走嘞。」我亦都唔執輸,我 7 都走,一直走埋去,過埋去廣福邨嗰度天橋邊--嗰個路邊睇番住宏泰閣、宏昌閣, 8 見到啲火就越整越犀利,初初呯聲之後影響到宏泰閣,跟住就見到啲火跟住去到第 9 4 座,我係第5 座,我宏泰閣1 樓8 號單位,呢個就首當其衝,見到啲火嗶哩呯隆 10 跌晒落去嗰度,咁我見到欲哭無淚,係咪先?咁咪惟有就走咗去廣福邨裏裏面匿 11 埋,喺2 樓個窗邊影相。嗰陣時啲仔女--我個細仔、大仔,兒女電話乒乒呯呯,我 12 的朋友乒乒呯呯畀我,「鄭生,做乜嘢呀?仲唔走呀?」變燒豬喎,係咪先?我冇 13 計,走去邊度。跟住就有啲職員叫「不如你去嗰個社區會堂。」我話「社區會堂咪 14 仲危險,啲火咁樣跌過去就已經冇得救,係咪先?」跟住我去到廣福邨2 樓裏面, 15 終於畀警察清場,唔清場唔得,你都要走,跟住我一路行,嗰啲人話「你唔好入去 16 嗰個會堂,走嘞已經,唔好入去裏面嘞,係咪先?寧願行遠啲。終我就喺大概都係 17 四點幾、五點鐘喥,我個大仔嚟到,放工嘞,佢唔放工都唔得閒嚟搵我,我就走, 18 情形就係咁情形。 19 杜淦堃資深大律師:多謝你。除咗火警發生之前你呢個嘅觀察,同埋當日嗰個情況之外,你 20 有冇其他嘢想同委員會講? 21 鄭先生:我都希望能夠藉呢個機會將我所見到嘅嘢,好似嗰啲發泡膠、啲雜物,亦督促當地 22 嗰啲工作人員養成一種好習慣,每日收工前都清理下,垃圾一定有,廢物就一定 23 有,唔係做到一塵不染,冇可能,只係唔好堆積,如果少啲堆積就少啲著火嘅機 24 會,變咗嚟講我就希望能夠所有嗰啲工作人員養成一個習慣,即日工作完,即日要 25 清番嗰個嘢。 26 其次,亦都希望能夠委員會幫我哋,為我哋曾經已經死咗嗰百幾人搵個真相, 27 做好將來,守望將來。我亦都希望能夠在生所有逃過一劫嘅邨民,大家振作啲,係 28 咁多。 29 杜淦堃資深大律師:主席,我冇其他問題。 30 陸啟康法官:有冇其他嘅涉事方想提問?我諗鄭生你嘅呼籲好多人都聽得到,好多謝你今日 31 上嚟,你嘅證供對我哋好有幫助。 32 鄭先生:我期盼--初初我諗住嚟聽都冇用,事情發生咗。不過,既然有信邀請我嚟,我惟有 33 我都嚟,我啲仔女都叫我「你諗清楚」,係先先?而家嚟到可能得個「聽」字,做 34

Evidential Hearing in relation to fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po

A Court Reporting Transcript by Epiq 32

唔做到嘢就靠你哋,靠你哋攞到個真材實料,希望能夠唔好為嗰批人,嗰批人已經 1 過咗身,不過希望能夠安息,將來唔好有重蹈覆轍。 2 陸啟康法官:我哋聽得好清楚,委員會亦都將你嘅信息銘記於心,我哋會盡力完成我哋嘅工 3 作。 4 鄭先生:多謝,多謝你哋。 5 陸啟康法官:多謝。 6

7 12 時27 分宏福苑居民證人鄭敬熙先生作供完畢 8

9 杜淦堃資深大律師:主席,我哋上午係安排咗呢六位證人嘅,但係因為基於我哋而家有少少 10 時間,我哋知道競委會嘅法律代表係有同本次調查有關嘅事情想向委員會報告,咁 11 呢個時間我哋交畀競委會。 12 陸啟康法官:係,唔該競委會嘅代表律師。 13

14 12 時27 分李曉亮律師陳詞 15

16 李曉亮:感謝主席、兩位委員。我哋競委會希望今日作出一個非常之簡短嘅陳詞,因為相信 17 主席、委員同埋身邊好多人都知道,競委會昨日就住一個樓宇復修嘅圍標集團,我 18 哋係正式向競爭事務審裁處作出提控嘅,呢一件案件牽涉六個業務實體、八間公 19 司,十二個個人,我哋嘅指控係圍標、合謀定價、瓜分市場同埋交換敏感資料。 20 我今日希望代表競委會作出三個重要嘅陳詞嘅:第一,首先就係呢件案件現階 21 段係競委會嘅指控,答辯人係仲未有機會透過佢哋嘅抗辯書,透過佢哋嘅陳詞去講 22 述番自己嗰一套嘅說法。不過,競委會拭目以待,想睇下答辯人點樣解釋,點解佢 23 哋會有收功課、交功課;點解會有主角,點解會有幫手。點解競爭者與充競爭者之 24 間收到功課,即係價格嘅提示,會照咁樣去將呢啲功課去提交畀招標者,呢個競委 25 會係拭目以待。 26 呢件案件競委會高度關注,我哋已經聘請咗相當我哋認為有實力嘅本地大律 27 師、本地律師。除此之外,我哋亦都聘請咗御用大律師去幫競委會就住呢件案件作 28 出提控。因為如果呢件將競委會嘅說法係屬實嘅,競委會嘅證據係屬實嘅,呢件將 29 會係香港第一單喺《競爭條例》下面檢控嘅圍標集團。呢個圍標集團佢哋嘅手法精 30 密,佢哋有交換功課,佢哋有系統性就住每一個招標已經內定選擇邊一個會贏。同 31 埋呢個圍標集團我哋見到牽涉嘅十一個招標裏面,雖然佢哋唔係張張標都贏,但係 32 佢哋呢啲標加埋嘅涉案金額非常之龐大,高達7 億元。 33 第二點,我哋非常鄭重提出,正如有啲朋友可能見到我哋競委會新聞稿裏面提 34

Evidential Hearing in relation to fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po

A Court Reporting Transcript by Epiq 33

及,我哋亦都將呢件案件懷疑出現嘅串謀欺詐行為轉交畀相關嘅執法部門,理由係 1 如下嘅,其實坊間有一個說法,就係話圍標都只不過係刑事,干犯咗圍標最多咪罰 2 錢,最多咪賠錢... 3 陸啟康法官:民事。 4 李曉亮:民事,對唔住,抱歉。呢一個說法技術上正確嘅,不過喺2010 年,其實正如競委 5 會喺我哋開案書面陳詞所講,終審庭同埋較早前嘅上訴庭嘅鄧國楨,當年仲係副庭 6 長,終審庭嘅列顯倫法官都講過,如果一個招標者想保障自己嘅招標過程,佢係可 7 以要求投標者清晰、明確咁樣表達話「我喺投標過程我並沒有合謀。」 8 喺呢件案件我哋見到涉事嘅招標者係有將我哋競委會喺2017 年建議政府同埋 9 建議其他商業機構,將佢哋嘅招標過程加入我哋競委會一個叫做不合謀確認書 10 (Non-collusive Tendering Certificate )」寫咗落去佢哋嘅招標文件 11 裏面,個意思係乜嘢呢?所有嘅招標者都要明確陳詞作出一個聲明,就係話「我喺 12 入標嗰陣時,我並沒有合謀。」競委會嘅說法好簡單,如果呢啲入標者係透過呢啲 13 虛假陳述去從而嘗試獲得呢一張標嘅話,呢個就正如列顯倫法官、鄧國楨法官所 14 講,呢個就有可能構成一個串謀詐騙嘅行為出現。所以競委會亦都將將相關嘅案件 15 轉交有關執法部門。其實呢啲唔係啲乜嘢石破天驚嘅說法,一個生意人係唔可以透 16 過虛假陳述嘗試去攞到一個生意機會,呢一啲係希望係不言自明嘅道理。到到最 17 後,相信大家都留意到我哋喺呢個檢控裏面,我哋係沒有包括呢件案件相關嘅或者 18 可以咁講兩個主角,即係鴻毅同埋宏業。 19 現階段競委會只可以咁講,我哋就住宏福苑發生嘅事,就住宏福苑呢張標,我 20 哋嘅調查仲未完,我哋唔排除宏福苑係出現一個兩個或以上嘅圍標集團運作嘅事 21 宜,而我哋亦都唔排除喺日後嘅日子,我哋會喺呢一個標上面作出進一步嘅檢控, 22 希望委員會又好,或者市民大眾又好,都畀少少耐性我哋。 23 主席、兩位委員,其實今日嘅委員會聆訊又好,我哋嘅提控又好,或者之後如 24 果真係有立法嘅修改又好,其實我諗都好清晰帶出個信息,就係我哋已經真係到咗 25 一個轉捩點嘅,呢一啲圍標者或者參與啲反競爭行為嘅人,佢哋以前嗰個思維話圍 26 標都只不過罰錢,圍標只不過係民事,呢啲思維已經唔再適用,遊戲規則已經改奱 27 咗,the rules of the game have changed。 28 我哋知道委員會嘅律師而家正在安排將我哋狀書同埋我哋相關新聞發稿,同埋 29 相關嘅資料,應該就會係喺稍後時間就會給予各方去參閱,亦都希望稍後嘅時間都 30 給予主席同埋兩位委員去細閱。到時如果大家即係消化完、分析完之後,有啲乜嘢 31 需要競委會進一步協助,我哋係非常之樂意,除非有其他地方可以協助到委員會嘅 32 話,謹此陳詞。 33 陸啟康法官:我諗現階段都係調查,因為指控未可以先判嘅,我相信我哋在座嘅所有人士都 34

Evidential Hearing in relation to fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po

A Court Reporting Transcript by Epiq 34

希望執法嘅部門係可以跟進呢啲事件,係繼續作出調查,亦都係搵出個真相,好多 1 人都想等番呢個真相嘅。調查我都相信有一定嘅困難,但係我相信執法部門亦都唔 2 好氣餒,繼續係去跟進呢一啲投訴係唔係成立。當然現階段我再重申呢啲都係調 3 查,現階段未有任何結果,大家亦都唔可以係未審先判。 4 我哋而家就會係中午嘅時間,之前我哋今日聽到好多活生生嘅一啲經歷或者一 5 啲嘅故事,嗰啲證人上到嚟今日畀證供真係唔係一個容易嘅事情,大家想像你要諗 6 番嗰日發生嘅事,係一個相當之--對佢哋嚟講真係相當大嘅沉重嘅負一個擔嚟嚟 7 嘅。我喺呢度再重申番我前幾日呼籲,請各位,我哋深知道大家對今次火災呢個嘅 8 聽證係非常高度關注,但係我都希望大家係對於我哋今日作供嘅所有嘅證人,同埋 9 佢哋經歷過呢啲慘痛嘅經歷時候,請大家敏感一啲,如果佢哋係唔想接受訪問嘅, 10 請大家唔好騷擾佢哋。我諗頭先幾位證人真係都呼籲過,我覺得佢哋講嘅嘢都係真 11 心代表我哋委員會嘅同一個睇法。我喺呢度好多謝今日朝頭早上晝出席嘅所有嘅證 12 人,你哋嘅證供一定會對我哋嘅調查有好大嘅幫助。我一次過講過,我哋知道好多 13 人對我哋嘅期望,我哋會盡我哋嘅能力去完成我哋嘅工作。 14 我哋而家會押後到下晝2 點15 分,2 點15 分繼續我哋聆訊。 15

16 12 時36 分聆訊押後 17 14 時16 分聆訊恢復 18

19 陸啟康法官:係。 20 杜淦堃資深大律師:主席、兩位委員,我哋今日下午第一位證人係阮仲文先生。阮先生,你 21 好,可唔可以麻煩你企起身讀一讀之前嗰份聲明。 22

23 14 時17 分宏福苑居民阮仲文先生開始作供 24

25 阮先生:本人阮仲文聲明,本人所作的證供盡本人所知、所悉及所信,均屬真實。 26 陸啟康法官:請坐,阮生。 27 杜淦堃資深大律師:阮生,你係宏福苑嘅居民,你住嗰個單位係幾多號呀? 28 阮先生:宏泰閣2602。 29 杜淦堃資深大律師:你幾時搬入去? 30 阮先生:02 室,我就大約06 年定07 年左右嘅。 31 杜淦堃資深大律師:我知道你嘅父母都係住係宏福嘅。 32 阮先生:係。 33 杜淦堃資深大律師:佢哋住喺邊個單位? 34

Evidential Hearing in relation to fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po

A Court Reporting Transcript by Epiq 35

阮先生:宏泰閣2606。 1 杜淦堃資深大律師:你自己本身都喺宏泰閣住㗎,係咪? 2 阮先生:係。 3 杜淦堃資深大律師:你係宏福苑住咗幾多年? 4 阮先生:我有記憶以嚟已經喺嗰度住㗎嘞。 5 杜淦堃資深大律師:你喺嗰度長大? 6 阮先生:係。 7 杜淦堃資深大律師:我知道你父母喺今次火災裏面係遭遇不測嘅。 8 阮先生:係。 9 杜淦堃資深大律師:當日發生火警之前,就我哋探討呢啲問題之前,我都想問一問你,你嘅- 10 -你係做盛行㗎? 11 阮先生:我係做食肆牌照申請嘅。 12 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想問一問你喺火警之前,我哋講之前,你有冇留意到就大廈維修可能 13 出現嘅一啲風險、一啲問題,你有啲咩嘢觀察? 14 阮先生:喺後樓梯我見到有啲防火窗拆咗,轉咗做啲生口。 15 杜淦堃資深大律師:你當時見到,你嘅感覺係點? 16 阮先生:覺得係有問題。 17 杜淦堃資深大律師:點解你會覺得有問題呢? 18 阮先生:因為個防火窗理論上係愛嚟防煙防火,你拆咗成條樓梯就冇咗個本身功用囉,走火 19 嘅功用。 20 杜淦堃資深大律師:你點解會對呢方面有呢啲認知同埋敏感? 21 阮先生:因為我本身做食肆牌照申請,食肆牌照申請都要經食環署、消防處嗰邊批核嘅,所 22 以都有少少認識。 23 杜淦堃資深大律師:你仲會唔會有其他政府部門你都有接觸,喺你工作裏面? 24 阮先生:BD、ICU 都有。 25 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白,我哋除咗呢一個問題之外,你有冇留意到其他問題喺大維修嘅過 26 程? 27 阮先生:啲窗口畀啲發泡膠板封咗囉,我哋每個單位嘅窗口都封咗,係。 28 杜淦堃資深大律師:你覺得唔妥嘅地方喺邊呢當時? 29 阮先生:首先,我望唔到屋外咩嘢環境先,係嘞,二嚟我唔知佢啲用嚟封窗物料係唔係防 30 火。 31 杜淦堃資深大律師:就呢啲問題,你哋有冇--據你所知,你或者其他你嘅街坊有冇提出過一 32 啲嘅意見或者提出投訴? 33 阮先生:我本人冇嘅,但係我知道有街坊係有去投訴嘅。 34

Evidential Hearing in relation to fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po

A Court Reporting Transcript by Epiq 36

杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋略略咁講番火警當日嘅情況,你係幾點知道發生咗事? 1 阮先生:大概3 點左右。 2 杜淦堃資深大律師:當時你喺邊度? 3 阮先生:我喺德福花園。 4 杜淦堃資深大律師:你知道發生咗火警之後,你點做? 5 阮先生:我即刻搭車返大埔嘅。 6 杜淦堃資深大律師:你搭車返大埔之後個情況係點,你可唔可以略略咁同委員會講一講? 7 阮先生:基本上落咗車見到即係好大火,咁其實都係喺附近,喺度不斷搵我父母,咁打電 8 話,但係都冇回音冇盛。其實都搵咗好耐,即係喺附近,不斷喺廣福邨、社區會堂 9 嗰啲地方係咁行嚟行去嗰度搵囉。 10 杜淦堃資深大律師:最後我哋提到個生口個問題,即係當然你對呢一方面有個認知。 11 阮先生:係。 12 杜淦堃資深大律師:你有冇去研究過個生口或者有冇埋去睇過嗰個用料嘅問題? 13 阮先生:木板嚟嘅。 14 杜淦堃資深大律師:就呢一方面你有冇啲咩嘢睇法呢,當時? 15 阮先生:木板就肯定唔防火㗎嘞,因為本身佢係愛嚟擋火、擋煙,咁你木板一燒就著,基本 16 上冇用。 17 杜淦堃資深大律師:你有冇其他嘅嘢想同委員會補充? 18 阮先生:想講番其實當時開業主立案法團會議嗰時,投票揀維修公司嗰時,因為以我嗰時觀 19 察,就附近嘅街坊大部分都唔想揀中標嗰間嘅,但係唔知點解開票嗰時佢係最高 20 票,而係仲要多好多添嘅,以我所知就。係嘞,係有啲--即係嗰時都覺得係--即係 21 一定係背後有啲嘢我哋唔清楚囉。 22 杜淦堃資深大律師:有冇其他嘢補充仲? 23 阮先生:都冇嘞。 24 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔該晒你,阮先生。等一等,主席有啲問題。 25 陸啟康法官:請問其他嘅涉事方有冇人想提問,冇嘅話,阮生,就節哀順變,就今日好多謝 26 你提供非常之重要嘅證供畀我哋,多謝。 27

28 14 時23 分宏福苑居民阮仲文先生作供完畢 29 14 時23 分宏福苑居民文家峻先生開始作供 30

31 杜淦堃資深大律師:下一位證人係文家峻先生。文先生,多謝你今日嚟到協助我哋嘅工作。 32 你前面有份聲明,麻煩你企起身讀出嚟。 33 文先生:本人文家峻聲明,本人所作之證供盡本人所知、所悉及所信,均屬真實。 34

Evidential Hearing in relation to fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po

A Court Reporting Transcript by Epiq 37

杜淦堃資深大律師:多謝你,文先生。主席,我同文先生商討過之後,佢同我哋提出,佢比 1 較想用佢自己嘅方法去讀出佢想話畀委員會知嘅證供,呢一個有佢之前畀我哋嘅嗰 2 個表格裏面面嘅資料同埋佢都有一啲嘅補充,所以如果你係允許嘅,我諗我哋等文 3 先生自己讀出嚟。 4 陸啟康法官:係,可以,文先生,請你有咩想同委員會講,請你講。 5 文先生:Okay,明白。 6 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋會將佢之前表格嘅資料打上大銀幕,但係你有其他想補充你都可 7 以。 8 文先生:明白。當時嘅事發係無法確認嘅,呢個時間係未必準確,相信係有偏差嘅。因為我 9 全程冇機會去留意時間,而我當時係坐喺屋企房間內電腦檯前,鍵盤位置係有擺放 10 電筒嘅,由於全屋嘅飯廳、客廳、兩間房間、廁所、廚房嘅窗戶係貼上發泡膠,基 11 本上可以打開嘅幅度係有限,唔會開得盡嘅。基本上有工程、有灰塵或者大聲響 12 呢,就會閂實個窗或者淨係開一條好細嘅罅,等間屋冇咁局促。屋企係要長期開燈 13 照明嘅,出面咩嘢情況係唔會知。而屋苑對住嘅係吐露港,不時就會有消防車嘅 14 聲,下意識係會認為出面只係--只係出面有交通意外,唔會聯想到係當刻係自己屋 15 苑有事。再加上當時即使係你打開咗個窗,你都隔住個綠色圍網,係睇唔清嘅。 16 當時事發時,我聞到燶味,同埋聽到屋外有大聲響,霹靂拍嘞咁嘅聲。因為未 17 知發生咩嘢事,我下意識係拎起電筒巡全間屋嘅內部,幾秒後又聽到大量消防車 18 聲。咁我就叫屋企人準備走,屋企人本身仲諗住着拖鞋落街睇下咩嘢事。咁我着好 19 鞋,拎好隨身物品之後,就巡多轉屋企嘅窗外,發現單位廚房對出嘅竹棚嘅綠色圍 20 網係穿咗個窿,size 大約係一個掛牆時鐘,或者係有偏差,因為有距離嘅。個窿 21 究竟係之前係火燒穿定還是之前已經穿,我唔知道,一開窗已經見到係咁。當刻係 22 見到個窿嘅下方竹棚係有三至四袋建築材料嘅包裝袋係分別燃燒緊同埋開始蔓延, 23 以及係有火屑掉落下層。竹棚本身一向係有擺放建築材料嘅,之前係幾版紙皮石, 24 當日係幾袋泥。 25 嗰陣我即刻叫屋企人着波鞋同拎袋要走,屋企人就開大門拍隔籬屋通知佢哋, 26 當時嘅資訊只係呢一棟樓宏建閣呢一層30 樓嘅03 室係有--對出嘅竹棚係有火要 27 走,出面咩嘢環境仲係完全唔知道,嗰一刻淨係同鄰居講眼見嘅事,冇人有時間用 28 電話或者睇電視,確實時間係唔會--唔知道嘅。由於我見到細火,我就嘗試喺廚房 29 嘅位置淋水救,試過幾次之後發現火源有一定嘅距離,個火喺竹棚嘅最邊邊位,係 30 貼住個綠色網嘅。用水淋唔到之後,我就有再淋兩轉水落樓下,驚個火蔓延落去, 31 然後我就即時叫所有人走,唔留得。 32 當時開門完全冇煙,所以冇人用濕毛巾。第一認知係小型火警,冇任何目測-- 33 目視嘅濃煙或大型火頭,當然,我行成棟樓嘅過程係有發現唔少火頭嘅。見屋企人 34

Evidential Hearing in relation to fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po

A Court Reporting Transcript by Epiq 38

同其他人已經離開,事後得知佢哋係搭升降機走嘅。咁警鐘扑同撳過都冇反應,我 1 就決定再試,用單位對出幾部內嘅消防喉嘗試救火。擝咗條喉出嚟,拉咗掣--唔 2 係,扭咗入面嗰個掣再開喉,都係得極少水量,個水量係愛嚟洗手得,淋濕身係完 3 全唔得。甚至當刻我以為係條喉太耐冇用𠽤實晒,咁我就拉埋去廚房入面再扭掣開 4 水確認,都係同樣水量,當刻我就解決撤離,我驚條喉會影響到其他人逃生,我圈 5 番晒成條喉放番入櫃,再行一圈該個樓層,睇下有冇人需要幫手先落樓梯。我住30 6 樓,行樓梯走火警嗰陣近乎層層都行一圈...(聽不清)大廈火警,同見火警鐘就 7 扑,當然係仍然冇反應。我記唔清我扑或者撳過幾多個火警鐘。 8 我想補充番,唔好意思,我冇受過相關訓練,喺混亂同自身亦要逃生嘅情況底 9 下無法同時做到多重事項,亦未能夠做到行緊每一層樓再去每一戶拍門大嗌「火 10 警」,但當時有行經嘅樓層就儘做,同埋實有敲警鐘,當時冇得我諗咁多,基本上 11 係本能反應,所有行為三至四秒去決定,係好混亂,我亦冇時間同能力確保每一個 12 行經嘅樓梯嘅每一戶都逃生。我淨係想儘量通知人,冇人係應該因為咁樣有事。 13 而全棟樓嘅警鐘最少係有兩款,第一,係要扑玻璃先響,第二係就咁撳掣就 14 響。由我離開屋企開始就手持個電筒,因為我唔知其他樓層係咩嘢情況,亦都唔知 15 會唔會停電,甚至做咗最壞打算要畀消防救,或者更嚴重。見到警鐘第一反應就拎 16 電筒嚟扑,然後再手撳,冇時間慢慢諗係邊一款,見到就扑咗先算,我係好想佢 17 響,總之有行經嘅樓層就一定有扑警鐘同扲個掣。 18 而樓梯內嘅牆係油晒白油,冇標示樓層,再加上當時係逃生嘅狀態,你係冇可 19 能知道行到幾多樓嘅。樓梯有部分樓層嘅窗係拆走,當時行經嘅防煙門係正常運 20 作,冇任何雜物阻擋,但係行到部分樓層嘅樓梯係有白煙,最少兩至三層。由樓梯 21 內嘅窗係完全拆走咗嘅,即使係我呢個身形都可以爬得到出去嘅,望出去對出竹棚 22 係有物品燃燒緊,燒緊咩我真係冇停低詳細睇。由上下兩層嘅房煙門望入去走廊係 23 冇煙,甚至之後我喺其中一層冇咁大--樓梯冇咁大煙嘅情況底下我入番走廊,走廊 24 入面都係冇煙。樓梯同走廊係冇任何嘢燃燒緊,呢段就係宏建閣CCTV 片段嘅描 25 述,我已經記唔清係邊面樓梯行落去嗰一層,幾樓我答唔到,因為真係思考唔到 26 嘅,淨係知要走,要儘量通知人。 27 我行到嗰一層見到消防喉拉咗出嚟,然後有個女士話火燭,我就行入去佢哋單 28 位入面,望向廚房就見到個男士用消防喉嘗試救火,佢都係話冇水嘅。起火位置係 29 該單位嘅廚房對上層嘅竹棚,確實燒緊咩我睇唔清。我話高--我就同佢哋講,我話 30 「高層都燒緊,救唔到,快啲走」。然後佢就話冇水,問咗好多次「有冇滅火筒? 31 有冇滅火筒?」我嗌多次要走,跟住我就行埋去警鐘嗰度扑個警鐘,想試下今次會 32 唔會響,由於見到有人嘅關係,我更加要確保逃生路線係咪仲安全,所以我就行入 33 樓梯開電筒照。 34

Evidential Hearing in relation to fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po

A Court Reporting Transcript by Epiq 39

跟住聽到上一層係有聲,我諗係冧嘢嘅聲,我就上咗去睇,發現冇嘢、冇人。 1 呢度我想更正番,由於當時好混亂,我喺樓宇內係不停行圈,一邊樓梯行經樓層行 2 去另外一邊,想儘量拍門、敲警鐘通知人,然後行落下一層,我有好大機會係行錯 3 樓層,冇再返去片段嗰個樓層,亦誤會嗰兩個老人家係已經成功逃生,對唔住。 4 然後我就繼續逃生同埋儘量通知其他人。落到大堂嗰時,有一名保安同一名軍 5 裝警,同佢哋短暫溝通之後就目擊大廈外係有雜物墮下,我想喺呢度同佢哋兩位講 6 聲唔好意思,因為當時情緒激動,有機會同佢溝通嗰陣係語氣重咗。 7 等待一陣之後,喺外面嘅消防員示意安全,我就同另外一個青年跑出去,跑到 8 管理處附近先係停,因為前往屋苑閘口嘅行人路係堆滿人群。當刻連有輪椅經過係 9 都冇讓開嘅佢哋。我再行前去到廣宏街天橋嘅救護站--廣宏街天橋底嘅巴士站,即 10 係我相信係當時嘅救護分流站,自行檢查自己有冇受傷之後就聯絡屋企人報平安, 11 全程冇機會留意時間。我成功逃生同屋企人報平安嘅時間大約15:40 左右。 12 我想補充番一樣嘢,由於我當刻係冇被困同冇受傷,而且得知大量消防員已經 13 到場,個情況都唔會樂觀,預期係會有好多人需要救援,所以我唔想佔用資源,我 14 冇打到999。而同時,因為已經其他住戶係得知已經發生咗火災嘅情況底下搭升降 15 機走,即係早過我。而我當時仍然喺樓宇內,我以為佢哋會逃生之後係通知相關人 16 員。係咁多,唔該。 17 杜淦堃資深大律師:多謝你嘅證供,其實相當全面。我知道你第一日聆訊嗰陣你都喺度,我 18 哋播過一條片係喺宏建閣21 樓,你嘗試去啟動火警鐘個扲手。我哋知道當時係晏 19 晝嘅3 點23 分,從呢一個時間去推斷番,你一開始發現火警嘅時候,你個推斷係 20 大概係幾多點喥應該係? 21 文先生:我嘅推斷應該係15:05 至到15:10,因為通常呢段時間嘅之前,我平時就係做運 22 動嘅,我係當刻已經係做完運動,準備係換衫,執拾行裝,諗住出街嗰啲嘅,我相 23 信係呢段時間。 24 杜淦堃資深大律師:麻煩你,最後你仲有冇其他嘅事情想補充,或者同委員會講? 25 文先生:我想補充番一個資訊,宏昌閣同宏盛閣兩棟樓宇後方,即係係有個行人閘口嘅,向 26 嗰個行人閘口係行去元洲仔或者大王爺廟嗰面嘅,而佢哋附近係擺放咗大量嘅建築 27 材料嘅,當日或者事發前一個星期嘅情況,我唔知,但以往佢哋係堆晒一大堆建築 28 材料喺附近嘅,即係樓宇同樓宇中間,以往係一啲凳畀老人家休息嘅,佢哋就喺嗰 29 度擺晒啲建築材料,係好大量嘅。同埋因為嗰條路係可以畀佢哋啲貨車泊喺嗰度落 30 貨,所以係有一大堆嘢嘅。我點解咁有印象?因為係以往跑步就必經嗰個位去元洲 31 仔,然後跑出去海濱。 32 杜淦堃資深大律師:畀少少時間我哋,我嘗試將嗰幅圖片影像--你可唔可以話到畀我哋知大 33 概邊個位呢你所指嘅係?而家你用... 34

Evidential Hearing in relation to fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po

A Court Reporting Transcript by Epiq 40

文先生:F 係宏昌。 1 杜淦堃資深大律師:係。 2 文先生:然後G 就係宏盛。 3 杜淦堃資深大律師:係。 4 文先生:大概係F,F 座嗰個--嗰個尖啄位嗰度,嗰度係有個行人閘口㗎,行去元州仔嗰面 5 嘅。 6 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢個應該係懷疑起火嗰個位置。 7 文先生:係。 8 杜淦堃資深大律師:多謝晒你。主席,我冇其他問題。 9 陸啟康法官:唔該,其他涉事方有冇其他問題想提問?如果冇,文生,我諗即係從你口供都 10 覺得你好多時都會諗番會唔會做得--可以做得更多,但係我相信我哋坐喺度每一個 11 人都覺得你當日已經做得好好,好多謝你今日出席畀呢啲證供,令到我哋可以了解 12 火災嘅情況,多謝你。 13 文先生:明白,明白,唔該。 14 杜淦堃資深大律師:多謝晒。 15

16 14 時42 分宏福苑居民文家峻先生作供完畢 17 14 時42 分宏福苑居民王淑蘭女士開始作供 18

19 杜淦堃資深大律師:主席,我哋證人上高有啲調動,下一位證人係王淑蘭女士。王女士,你 20 好,麻煩你將你面前嘅聲明,企起身幫我哋讀一次出嚟。 21 王女士:本人王淑蘭聲明,本人所作的證供盡本人所知、所悉及所信,均屬真實。 22 杜淦堃資深大律師:多謝你。 23 陸啟康法官:請坐,王女士。 24 杜淦堃資深大律師:王女士,資料顯示你住喺宏志403,係咪? 25 王女士:係。 26 杜淦堃資深大律師:你係同邊位家人同住? 27 王女士:我同我個仔。 28 杜淦堃資深大律師:你可唔可以話畀我哋知,你係喺邊度工作? 29 王女士:我喺大埔街市接替我媽媽嘅--因為佢係舊檔主嚟嘅,佢死咗,我就可以去繼承嘅, 30 咁佢走嘅時候交帶我去接嘅,咁我就一路都喺街市嗰度工作,係。 31 杜淦堃資深大律師:所以你都喺街市嗰度有好多機會同啲街坊接觸,我相信。 32 王女士:係,我應該係我中學嘅時候已經喺街市,舊街市遷上新街市,其實有好多人就佢哋 33 識我,我都唔係好識佢哋咁樣。 34

Evidential Hearing in relation to fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po

A Court Reporting Transcript by Epiq 41

杜淦堃資深大律師:多謝你。咁你喺宏福苑住咗幾耐? 1 王女士:我大學畢業之後,因為富戶政策,我哋三倍租,我哋就買咗宏福苑,大概都有幾十 2 年,係應該係廿--我出嚟做咗嘢幾年之後,應該係廿幾歲嘅時候,我而家51, 3 係,廿年左右。 4 杜淦堃資深大律師:我嘅理解係喺大維修之前,其實因為你住4 樓,所以有時你會用到樓梯 5 出入,同埋你會有機會去開到嗰啲同樓梯連接嘅防煙門,或者通往大堂或者後樓梯 6 嗰道門嘅,我想你講一講畀我哋聽個情況係點,會唔會有時開唔到或者鎖住,或者 7 有其他你覺得係比較奇怪嘅情況? 8 王女士:我喺403 單位一出右手面就係向後樓梯嗰個門嚟,咁我因為--如果電梯壞咗或者 9 未到,我急我就會行樓梯衝落去嘅,但係因為個反應就係好急,咁就唔會特登行嗰 10 邊,又醒唔起行嗰邊,咁就成日行錯咗去後樓梯嗰個門,我係未試過開到門嘅, 11 係,每一次都去到嗰度都會博懵偷雞㧬開道門嘅,我知道會響alarm,嗰度成日, 12 但係未試過響過alarm,亦都未試過開到過個門,只係有一次就係咁啱去開嘅時 13 候,就出面有個清潔嘅大媽,佢講普話嘅音嘅,咁佢開畀我嘅。 14 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係換句話講,呢道門其實你嘅理解,開嘅時候就會有嗰個警鐘,但係 15 未試過著嘅,你亦都未試過開到,你嘅意思係? 16 王女士:係,係。 17 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白。我都知根據你嘅提交嘅資料,你都嘗試過去參加一啲業主立案法 18 團嘅會議嘅。 19 王女士:係。 20 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係有時係唔成功嘅,即係參加唔到嘅,你可唔可以都講一講? 21 王女士:係,因為我唔係業主,業主登記係用我細佬個名登記嘅,但係我哋就係一家人咁樣 22 一齊住,咁我細佬因為同我--要照顧我爸爸,就喺林村嗰邊,就唔喺呢面嘅,咁佢 23 唔喺度嘅時候就開唔到,佢指定一定要業主。跟住同埋佢仲有一個問題,就係佢要 24 攞人哋身份證號碼,咁我覺得係我私隱嚟嘅,我覺得住喺宏福苑已經好冇安全感, 25 因為我哋有陣時講少少嘢,總之唔係佢哋嘅畀我哋嘅動作嘅時候,已經有人會鬧我 26 哋,或者保安對我哋態度都會好差嘅,咁我哋係唔去開囉,因為我唔想啲私人資料 27 流出去。 28 杜淦堃資深大律師:另外你都提到你有聽過有啲街坊係畀人收咗個授權書,但係--或者佢冇 29 授權過任何人投票,但係最屘係有人幫佢投咗票,你可唔可以講一講呢個情況? 30 王女士:因為我個工作地點係喺街市,咁好多街坊都可以即係接觸我,或者佢哋有啲咩嘢 31 嘢,都會好似會嚟傾--買餸或者傾開都會講嘅,咁佢哋話有黃碧嬌嘅義工去到佢哋 32 嗰度攞一啲授權信,因為老人家有陣時好多時都會怕事,咁畀咗佢,或者如果可能 33 夜晚黑,後生返嚟會講番個情況,但係現場其實係混亂嘅,我都見過黃碧嬌同佢啲 34

Evidential Hearing in relation to fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po

A Court Reporting Transcript by Epiq 42

義工定係一啲人入嚟係鬧交嘅,同我哋屋苑就我哋維修嗰啲事鬧得好犀利,因為我 1 返工,我好多時見到個情況,但係我唔會直接參與嘅。咁亦都聽過佢哋同我講就話 2 有假嘅授權票,咩嘢叫「假嘅授權票」,即係業主其實係冇授權過任何人,到佢親 3 身去授--投票嘅時候,就發現已經被人用咗佢嗰個住戶個身分去投咗票嘅。 4 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白,呢啲嘢係你自己聽番嚟,你自己本身冇...(聽不清) 5 王女士:我冇目擊到。 6 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白,即係都喺街市聽番嚟? 7 王女士:係。 8 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白。好,我冇其他問題,你有冇其他問題想--其他事情想同委員會 9 講? 10 王女士:我想講,其實由頭到尾,喺呢個火災嘅招標嘅過程,我都覺得好黑暗嘅,我哋其實 11 係爭取亦都反對好多嘢嘅。第一,個造價真係好貴,但係我哋永遠都係失敗嘅,亦 12 都有好多人係干擾我哋。到到火災之後,一路,因為啲街坊都知道我個情況,咁好 13 多都係喺其他地方嚟嘅,佢哋同我講,我哋呢次火災犧牲咁多人,但係救番佢哋屋 14 苑,說話係好難聽。就算到到而家,我哋大埔8 號花園個造價,唔知點解突然間會 15 有人走出嚟講話$30 萬一戶,亦都入面會關乎喺--又係有民建聯嘅,我都唔明白, 16 我哋好似任人宰割咁樣。但係因為我哋嘅出事之後,佢哋比較警惕啲,亦都佢哋大 17 家會商量好多方案去應對嘅,個情況就係政府亦都而家有ICAC 參與去拉一啲人嘅 18 時候,好似令到佢哋暫時安全落嚟咁樣。 19 杜淦堃資深大律師:多謝你。主席,我冇其他問題。 20 陸啟康法官:各個涉事方有冇其他問題想問?如果冇嘅話,王女士,多謝,非常多謝你嘅證 21 供。 22 王女士:唔該。 23 陸啟康法官:咁亦都喺度想提一提,其實我哋就第二個嘅議題,即係我哋職權範圍嘅第二個 24 嘅範疇,即係包括圍標,或者有任何不當嘅行為,我哋嘅公眾諮詢就會開始㗎嘞。 25 咁我哋如果有乜嘢公眾方面有任何嘅資料,或者任何嘅證據或者資料,想可以協助 26 委員會去做出呢個調查,請你哋真係喺呢個時間嗰度提交呢啲文件畀我哋,我哋知 27 道時間唔係好長,但我哋希望大家都可以理解,因為我哋委員會嘅工作係有一定嘅 28 時限嘅緊迫性,所以我希望各位可以利用呢一個時間,如果係有任何資料可以提交 29 畀我哋去調查呢個圍標或者不當行為,請你哋係--我哋--跟我哋秘書處所發出嘅通 30 告,喺嗰個時間之內,請你哋提交呢啲資訊畀我哋,多謝各位。 31 杜淦堃資深大律師:主席,跟住落嚟李澍桓大律師會引導餘下兩位證人。 32 陸啟康法官:唔該。 33

34

Evidential Hearing in relation to fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po

A Court Reporting Transcript by Epiq 43

14 時52 分宏福苑居民證人王淑蘭女士作供完畢 1 14 時52 分外牆清潔工人黃足蓮女士開始作供 2

3 李澍桓大律師:主席,跟住我哋會傳召嘅係黃足蓮女士,咁佢係當日喺宏福苑工作嘅其中一 4 個工人嚟嘅。黃女士,喺我未同你進一步探討當日嘅情況之前,喺你面前有一張卡 5 嘅,咁麻煩你先讀咗嗰個聲明。 6 黃女士:本人黃足蓮聲明,本人所作的證供盡本人所知...(聽不清)及所言的,屬真實。 7 陸啟康法官:請坐,黃女士。 8 李澍桓大律師:黃女士,我哋知道喺宏福苑大火當日,其實你就喺現場工作緊嘅。 9 黃女士:係。 10 李澍桓大律師:工作嘅地點其實當時就喺宏昌閣嘅棚架上面,係咪? 11 黃女士:係。 12 李澍桓大律師:咁我哋都知道,喺大火發生咗之後,其實你係冇辦法即時逃離宏福苑,你係 13 要去到第二日,即係11 月27 號先至有消防員可以喺天台度救番你走嘅,係咪? 14 黃女士:係,係。 15 李澍桓大律師:我一陣間我會再詳細少少問你關於你工作上同埋火警發生嘅時候嘅一啲事 16 情。不過我想先都等主席同埋兩位委員可以了解多你個背景多少少,就係你應該係 17 喺大概2013、14 年喥,就加入建築業做呢個所謂外牆嘅清潔工人,係咪? 18 黃女士:係。 19 李澍桓大律師:亦即係好多時行內會叫你哋做一啲洗石嘅師傅,係咪? 20 黃女士:係。 21 李澍桓大律師:咁即係所以去到2026 年--2025 年嘅時候,其實你都做咗呢一行有差唔多 22 十二年? 23 黃女士:係。 24 李澍桓大律師:就住宏福苑呢一個工作,我嘅理解就應該係你一位工友叫做友哥,姚順友, 25 就搵你去幫手,係咪? 26 黃女士:係。 27 李澍桓大律師:咁當時你嘅工作嗰個情況就係用一個散工日薪咁樣嘅方式,係咪? 28 黃女士:係。 29 李澍桓大律師:我哋知道你係事後向警方提供咗一份口供嘅,咁所以我而家有一啲資料,我 30 唔去考你記性,咁我就直接喺個口供度同你確認,如果你認為係有錯嘅,你就話番 31 畀我知,好唔好? 32 黃女士:係。 33 李澍桓大律師:我嘅理解就係你講,其實你最先喺宏福苑嗰度工作,就應該係14 號11 月, 34

Evidential Hearing in relation to fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po

A Court Reporting Transcript by Epiq 44

係咪? 1 黃女士:係,係。 2 李澍桓大律師:當時你頭嗰兩日,14、15 號去到就其實都主要係上一啲安全課,就上咗大 3 概一個鐘,係咪? 4 黃女士:係。 5 李澍桓大律師:你記唔記得呢一個安全課入面,譬如講到一啲所謂安全嘅...(聽不清)或 6 者安全嘅措施嘅時候,呢一個安全課同你講啲乜? 7 黃女士:佢講係出去做嘢要着安全帶,要帶齊嗰啲安全帽,係出去開工。 8 李澍桓大律師:呢個係講緊即係所謂「出去做嘢」就係話上棚架嘅時候,係咪? 9 黃女士:出去做嘢,上棚架。 10 李澍桓大律師:喺上棚架嗰度,佢有冇比較仔細咁同你講,例如話講解畀你知,每隔幾層其 11 實有個生口,你哋可以喺嗰度出入,有冇講到呢一方面嘅嘢? 12 黃女士:以前喺安全冇講,係嗰個係賴總(譯音),賴總講過。 13 李澍桓大律師:呢個賴總,我所知就其實係一個管工,係咪? 14 黃女士:係。 15 李澍桓大律師:你應該唔知佢個全名,係咪? 16 黃女士:唔知。 17 李澍桓大律師:賴總除咗--因為我知道你有同警方都交代過,佢主要就去管理你哋每日返工 18 放工去拍卡,即係睇住你哋有冇遲到。岔開少少,喺成--譬如整日工作入面,你有 19 冇見過,除咗返工、放工嗰陣時,你仲有冇見過賴總? 20 黃女士:係見過一次,係佢喺天面交帶我哋做嘢,係做邊度開始做到邊度,交帶我哋。 21 李澍桓大律師:即係每日開始嘅時候就畀個指示你? 22 黃女士:唔係,就係見過一次。 23 李澍桓大律師:淨係見過一次? 24 黃女士:唔。 25 李澍桓大律師:即係話唔會話喺棚架,你做做下嘢,你會見到佢去巡視,睇下你哋有冇偷 26 懶,就冇見到呢啲情況嘅? 27 黃女士:冇,冇,冇。 28 李澍桓大律師:生口,咁佢--賴總同你講呢個生口係愛嚟做乜?有冇解釋畀你知? 29 黃女士:生口,佢有講過,但係我哋照基本我哋開工,都係從上面做下落嘅,就好少經過嗰 30 度。 31 李澍桓大律師:我知道,因為你解釋過畀警方知,就因為你哋要有水喉各樣嘢,喺天台度落 32 棚。 33 黃女士:係。 34

Evidential Hearing in relation to fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po

A Court Reporting Transcript by Epiq 45

李澍桓大律師:但係我就係想知道,賴總同你講生口,佢實際上同你講啲乜?佢有冇話畀你 1 知呢個生口係做咩嘢作用? 2 黃女士:佢冇同我講過,佢應該係提過,佢提過下,佢提過。 3 李澍桓大律師:提過係愛嚟做乜,佢話呢個生口? 4 黃女士:佢係--唔知,佢話出入㗎。 5 李澍桓大律師:出入嘅。 6 黃女士:唔。 7 李澍桓大律師:喺呢個安全課入面,有冇同你講過一啲消防設備,譬如話邊度可以--如果有 8 火警要點樣做,有冇講及呢啲嘢? 9 黃女士:呢個佢就係上安全堂,佢叫我哋去簡單去講下安全知識嗰啲,係自己要安全帶、安 10 全帽、嗰啲防盜扣,係嗰啲叫做注意--叫我哋注意安全。 11 李澍桓大律師:有冇講過--除咗呢啲注意安全之外,有冇同你講過話火燭要--譬如舉個例, 12 如果個棚架著火,你哋應該要即時點做,有冇講過呢樣嘢? 13 黃女士:冇講過,就係話唔好食煙嗰啲,咁樣講,唔好去嗰啲竹棚嗰度,衞生嗰啲嘢唔好 14 做,就咁樣講。 15 李澍桓大律師:就住食煙嘅呢個議題,我又想問下你,佢話唔好食煙,咁我知道你本身同友 16 哥都唔食煙嘅? 17 黃女士:唔食。 18 李澍桓大律師:你有冇--即係佢有冇進一步講如果要食煙嘅話去邊度食?有冇講呢啲指示? 19 黃女士:冇,我哋講咗一下我哋話冇食煙,佢就冇講。 20 李澍桓大律師:上呢個安全課嘅時候係淨係得你同友哥,定還是仲有其他嘅工人? 21 黃女士:就係我哋兩個。 22 李澍桓大律師:淨係你哋兩個。 23 黃女士:唔。 24 李澍桓大律師:有一個--另外一個我相信都涉及安全嘅一個議題,就係我知道你哋洗牆嘅時 25 候就要用一啲洗石水,係咪? 26 黃女士:洗石水同埋清水。 27 李澍桓大律師:係,呢個洗石水就係要溝落啲清水度,溝稀釋佢嚟用嘅,係咪? 28 黃女士:唔。 29 李澍桓大律師:你知唔知--因為你都好有經驗,呢啲洗石水嘅成分,你知唔知係咩嘢嚟? 30 黃女士:成分,呢啲洗石水成分係嗰啲係有嗰啲鹽酸嗰啲,要溝稀佢攞去洗嗰啲外牆,就各 31 有各施,係我哋係洗得郁,溝淡咗洗得郁就得㗎嘞。 32 李澍桓大律師:我見友哥佢有講過就通常係七比三咁樣嘅比例,係咪? 33 黃女士:洗得郁就得㗎嘞,即係你係太過淡又洗唔郁,太濃又唔得,各有各施,佢自己溝到 34

Evidential Hearing in relation to fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po

A Court Reporting Transcript by Epiq 46

洗得郁就得。 1 李澍桓大律師:即係其實呢啲洗石水亦都本身有一啲腐蝕嘅成分喺度,係咪?即係有個咁嘅 2 作用,先至愛嚟揦走嗰啲漬,係咪? 3 黃女士:揦走嗰啲英泥漬。 4 李澍桓大律師:唔。所以點解--我知道你哋都有交代過,就係話通常到你要做洗牆或者洗石 5 嘅呢個部分嘅時候,其實基本上個棚架喺你哋嗰邊就唔會有其他工人喺度㗎嘞? 6 黃女士:冇㗎嘞,唔。 7 李澍桓大律師:唔。我知道你講過,14、15 號就都係做一啲搬運、上安全課嘅工作,就未 8 正式上棚架去洗牆,係咪? 9 黃女士:係,搬架生過去。 10 李澍桓大律師:嗄,搬架生。 11 黃女士:唔。 12 李澍桓大律師:16 號,我睇番日曆就星期日嚟嘅,所以就唔需要開工,係咪? 13 黃女士:唔,唔。 14 李澍桓大律師:17 號就應該係第一日開始喺宏昌閣,就係做工程,做洗石嘅--洗牆嘅工 15 夫,係咪? 16 黃女士:係。 17 李澍桓大律師:唔。而家我方便你,因為我知道你曾經喺張圖度做過一啲註解畀警方嘅,咁 18 我不如用番嗰張圖嚟畀你睇番。首先,喺未睇呢張圖之前,我問一問你,就係宏昌 19 閣應該就喺宏福苑入面你第一個接觸做嘅大廈嚟嘅,係咪? 20 黃女士:係,第六座。 21 李澍桓大律師:唔。好,如果我睇呢張圖,你見到喺上面每一座有一個室嘅單位嘅,即係單 22 位嗰個號碼嘅,如果你留意1 嗰度,跟住我見到你有畫咗一個三角形,隔籬2 嗰度 23 亦都畫咗個三角形。 24 黃女士:係。 25 李澍桓大律師:跟住對上去,向左手邊上,我哋都見到你甚至乎去到2 號同3 號單位中間嗰 26 個所謂“光井”嘅外牆,你哋都已經係做咗一個洗牆嘅部分㗎嘞,係咪? 27 黃女士:係,係。 28 李澍桓大律師:所以去到11 月26 號嘅時候,我嘅理解就係你哋原本就係準備做3 號單位 29 嗰兩幅嘅外牆嘅洗石工夫嘅,係咪? 30 黃女士:係,係。 31 李澍桓大律師:唔。所以喺呢張圖上面,我哋嘅理解就係你用咗星星嚟代表,就係當日就負 32 責洗嗰兩幅嘅外牆,係咪? 33 黃女士:唔,唔。 34

Evidential Hearing in relation to fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po

A Court Reporting Transcript by Epiq 47

李澍桓大律師:問一問你,因為我嘅理解就係你哋做得洗牆呢一個步驟,基本上就係個工程 1 上面最後嘅一個工序嚟㗎嘞? 2 黃女士:係。 3 李澍桓大律師:所以我睇到你嘅資料就係話,其實應該到你哋做得洗牆,個窗口上面就已經 4 冇咗發泡膠遮住啲窗㗎嘞,係咪? 5 黃女士:冇。 6 李澍桓大律師:唔。喺2 號同3 號單位中間嗰度我哋見到有個類似天井或者我哋叫「光井」 7 嘅位,嗰度你嘅--而家嘅記憶,係咪當你做洗牆嘅時候,亦都已經冇咗嗰啲發泡膠 8 㗎嘞? 9 黃女士:冇。 10 李澍桓大律師:唔。咁我相信當你喺26 號當日早上,你哋開始做3 號單位嘅時候,嗰啲發 11 泡膠都應該已經係拆走咗,係咪? 12 黃女士:係,冇。 13 李澍桓大律師:唔。我哋知道,頭先都講過,洗牆嘅時候就只會得你同友哥負責洗牆嘅工 14 夫。但係我哋知道其實當時嘅棚架上面都仲有其他工人嘅,你記唔記得其實係當日 15 有其他工人喺棚架嘅其他部分? 16 黃女士:我哋朝早開咗工上去,一直都喺天面㗎嘞,就到下晝十二點幾一點鐘開工都喺天 17 面。 18 李澍桓大律師:唔,「天面」嘅意思係天台? 19 黃女士:天台,係。就我哋就冇去行,冇去其他地方行。 20 李澍桓大律師:咁你知唔知道棚架上面有冇其他嘅工人,其他位置,唔係3 號嗰個外牆嗰 21 度,你唔知? 22 黃女士:唔知。 23 李澍桓大律師:唔。跟住去到大概火警發生嘅時間,我哋知道就係喺大概兩點半左右,似乎 24 就開始有工人發現著火。 25 黃女士:我哋都唔知。 26 李澍桓大律師:你哋都唔知,係咪? 27 黃女士:係聽到地下有人嗌幾聲「火燭」,我哋就睇下就--走唔到,就爬上去,就一直走唔 28 到。 29 李澍桓大律師:唔。我知道你同警方講,你就話除咗聽到有人叫「火燭」,你仲聞到一啲你 30 個... 31 黃女士:嗰啲膠味。 32 李澍桓大律師:...口供講「燒膠嘅味道」,係咪? 33 黃女士:係,好輕微,唔係好重,好輕微。 34

Evidential Hearing in relation to fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po

A Court Reporting Transcript by Epiq 48

李澍桓大律師:唔。 1 黃女士:係。 2 李澍桓大律師:你就當其時應該係--如果我哋睇番呢張圖,你就應該喺... 3 黃女士:3 號,角... 4 李澍桓大律師:...3 號牆,隔咗4 號牆嗰度,嗰個棚面度做緊嘢,係咪? 5 黃女士:係,就冇到4 號,都喺3 號嘅角位嗰度。 6 李澍桓大律師:係。 7 黃女士:唔。 8 李澍桓大律師:你係咪好似就係話聽到有人叫「火燭」嘅時候,你就所以行咗上去呢張圖上 9 面畫住圓圈嗰個位置,嘗試去了解發生咩嘢事,係咪? 10 黃女士:係,就係行過去睇到一啲煙,睇到啲煙,就過唔到去,要爬上去。 11 李澍桓大律師:即係你行到去圓形嗰個位置角落頭,就見到好多煙,你就話想行過去都行唔 12 到? 13 黃女士:唔。 14 李澍桓大律師:除咗煙之外,你見唔見到有火? 15 黃女士:嗰時仲未,仲未,仲未睇到,就係睇到少少煙,喺嗰個網嗰度,...(聽不清)出 16 嚟。 17 李澍桓大律師:唔,當其時你記唔記得大概係咪應該就係去到27 樓嘅時候,即係同友哥做 18 到大概27 樓嗰個位置,係咪? 19 黃女士:差唔多,差唔多。 20 李澍桓大律師:咁你跟住就係--係咪就係通知番友哥話火燭? 21 黃女士:係,我話嗰度好大煙,我話「爬竹棚上喇」,我咁樣講。 22 李澍桓大律師:唔。 23 黃女士:唔,就兩個人爬上去天面。 24 李澍桓大律師:你講嘅「天面」即係天台,最高嗰層? 25 黃女士:天台,唔,唔。 26 李澍桓大律師:上到天台嘅時候有冇諗過喺天台嗰度跟住離開宏昌閣? 27 黃女士:都有,嗰時兩個人都諗住走,後屘去後樓梯嗰度睇到好煙,就走唔到。 28 李澍桓大律師:係。 29 黃女士:後樓梯嗰度好大煙,就走唔到。 30 李澍桓大律師:你講緊個「後樓梯」係你由天台行入去嗰個後樓梯定還是你行咗入去下面樓 31 層? 32 黃女士:冇,冇,打到一啲門,開來就好大煙,喺樓梯嗰度上嚟,走唔到。 33 李澍桓大律師:係,即係其實由天台一打開門就已經好多煙? 34

Evidential Hearing in relation to fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po

A Court Reporting Transcript by Epiq 49

黃女士:係,走唔到。 1 李澍桓大律師:咁你打開門見到好多煙,跟住你點做? 2 黃女士:跟住走唔到,走唔到就倒番去我哋嗰度天台嗰度,嗰度睇到有火就𢳂啲水去撥嗰啲 3 火。 4 李澍桓大律師:天台除咗你同友哥,當其時仲有冇其他工人喺度? 5 黃女士:冇,冇。 6 李澍桓大律師:得你同友哥兩個? 7 黃女士:唔,多數都係我哋兩個。 8 李澍桓大律師:唔。 9 黃女士:嗰啲唔喺嗰度做,就係我哋兩個喺嗰度拉喉吖嘛。 10 李澍桓大律師:唔。跟住我哋當然知道,就你喺上面同友哥就惟有係過咗一晚,等到第二朝 11 消防員嚟救你? 12 黃女士:係。 13 李澍桓大律師:少少一般嘅議題,睇下你幫唔幫到我哋。因為委員會其中一個我哋想做到嘅 14 就係了解番當日發生嘅情況同埋開工嘅時間一啲情況。頭先有講過,即係有一啲安 15 全課,講咗畀你知一啲要做地盤注意嘅地方,我嘅理解就你哋應該個工作時間就朝 16 九晚五,係咪? 17 黃女士:係。 18 李澍桓大律師:有午飯時間? 19 黃女士:我哋係帶飯去天台嗰度食嘅。 20 李澍桓大律師:天台係唔係都算係一個即係譬如除咗你之外,其他工人都一個經常所謂用嚟 21 休息嘅地方嚟嘅,係咪呀?食飯呀。 22 黃女士:都唔係嘅,佢唔需要去喺嗰度,佢咪唔需要上去,係我哋需要去嗰度出嗰啲喉攞 23 水,先係需要去天台。 24 李澍桓大律師:午飯大概係幾多點時間? 25 黃女士:我哋都冇規定嘅,好似有時你做晒落去,十一點幾可以食完,又可以開工咁樣。 26 李澍桓大律師:晏晝會唔會有個小休,譬如3 點鐘食下午茶時間、小休時間,有冇㗎? 27 黃女士:都冇。 28 李澍桓大律師:以你所知,其他工人係唔係都係一個咁樣嘅即係作息嘅時間? 29 黃女士:係。 30 李澍桓大律師:即係佢哋總之就自己9 點鐘就上棚做嘢,有佢哋自己嘅食晏時間、休息時 31 間? 32 黃女士:唔,唔。 33 李澍桓大律師:喺你14 號開始,到26 號,即係大概唔夠兩個星期嘅呢一個宏福苑工作嘅期 34

Evidential Hearing in relation to fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po

A Court Reporting Transcript by Epiq 50

間,有冇見到其他工人喺宏福苑嘅範圍入面食煙㗎? 1 黃女士:冇,我哋就係兩個人一上咗去,即係你見到有人,即係打下招呼,人家要走嘅,去 2 做工嘅,就係就打下招呼早晨咁樣,都唔知道人哋姓乜名乜。 3 李澍桓大律師:賴總就見過一次? 4 黃女士:係。 5 李澍桓大律師:主席,我冇其他問題。 6 陸啟康法官:唔知其他涉事方有冇人想提出任何問題?如果冇,黃女士,多謝你今日出庭, 7 出嚟呢個聽證會作供,多謝你。而家我哋會仲有幾多位證人今日? 8 李澍桓大律師:仲有兩位。 9 陸啟康法官:你想而家係小休? 10 李澍桓大律師:所以而家係一個合適嘅時間。 11 陸啟康法官:我哋休息十分鐘。 12

13 15 時13 分聆訊押後 14 15 時23 分聆訊恢復 15

16 李澍桓大律師:主席,下一位證人係姚順友先生。 17 陸啟康法官:唔緊要,姚先生,或者你先企起身,然之後我請隔籬嘅同事,你跟住佢,佢講 18 一句你讀一句,好唔好? 19 姚先生:唔。 20 陸啟康法官:或者你先企一企起身,我哋做咗呢個宣誓先。 21 姚先生:本人姚順友,聲明本人所作的證供盡本人所知、所悉及所信,均屬誠實--均屬真 22 實。 23 陸啟康法官:請坐,姚先生,請坐。姚生,你知道今日嚟我哋作供,我哋嗰個聲明就要求你 24 係如實作供嘅,你清楚吖嘛? 25 姚先生:係,知道。 26 李澍桓大律師:姚先生,我知道你喺宏福苑大火,即係11 月26 號嗰一日,你就係同你嘅工 27 友阿蓮,亦即係頭先作供嘅黃足蓮女士就一齊喺棚架上面原本係做緊洗外牆嘅工 28 作,係咪? 29 姚先生:係。 30 李澍桓大律師:我哋亦都知道到最後大火發生嘅時候,你哋係被困咗喺天台度,要等到27 31 號先至獲救嘅? 32 姚先生:係。 33 李澍桓大律師:我知道呢個唔係一個愉快嘅經歷嚟嘅,不過希望你明白,就住你嗰個工作嘅 34

Evidential Hearing in relation to fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po

A Court Reporting Transcript by Epiq 51

過程上面上面發生嘅嘢同埋大火嗰陣時發生嘅嘢,呢個都會好幫到委員會去了解嘗 1 試搵番當日發生啲咩嘢事嘅,所以我首先多謝你今日嚟呢度作供。 2 姚先生:係。 3 李澍桓大律師:咁等主席同埋委員認識多你少少,姚先生,我知道你就其實大概喺95 年嘅 4 時候,就已經入行做呢個所謂洗石師傅,做洗外牆嘅工作,係咪? 5 姚先生:係。 6 李澍桓大律師:所以去到火警當日,其實你做咗有超過三十年嘅呢一個工作,係咪? 7 姚先生:係。 8 李澍桓大律師:我知道你應該喺2020 年就正式受一間叫做海德營造工程有限公司,就用月 9 薪嘅方式請你做呢個洗石師傅嘅,係咪? 10 姚先生:係。 11 李澍桓大律師:問一問你關於海德營造你嘅老闆先,應該你嘅老闆其中一個就係叫做光頭 12 基,係咪呀? 13 姚先生:係。 14 李澍桓大律師:花名光頭基嘅,應該係嚴生,嚴楚基先生,係咪呀? 15 姚先生:係。 16 李澍桓大律師:我亦都知道喺你公司應該仲有一位當日喺宏福苑其實負責做你哋管工嘅,應 17 該姓賴嘅先生嘅,係咪呀? 18 姚先生:係,賴總。 19 李澍桓大律師:叫賴總? 20 姚先生:唔。 21 李澍桓大律師:有冇聽過其實除咗你哋海德之外,其實仲有一間可能叫做三判嘅公司,就叫 22 做廣鵬工程公司,有冇聽過? 23 姚先生:冇聽過。 24 李澍桓大律師:有冇聽過一個叫做四眼坤(譯音)嘅人? 25 姚先生:冇聽過四眼坤。 26 李澍桓大律師:好,我哋一陣間返轉頭再講講當日26 號嘅嘢。 27 姚先生:係。 28 李澍桓大律師:不過喺未講26 號之前,我哋頭先聽蓮姐,黃女士講,我哋都知道你就係 29 14、15 號左右就開始喺宏福苑嗰度工作嘅,你記唔記得? 30 姚先生:記得。 31 李澍桓大律師:咁就一開始嘅時候,就先上一個叫做安全課,跟住就做一啲搬運架生嘅工 32 夫,係咪? 33 姚先生:係。 34

Evidential Hearing in relation to fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po

A Court Reporting Transcript by Epiq 52

李澍桓大律師:喺呢個安全課入面,有冇記得佢有同你講過一啲關於發生火警嘅時候要留意 1 嘅地方? 2 姚先生:都係冇咩嘢講嘅。 3 李澍桓大律師:冇咩嘢講。有冇同你講食煙嘅嘢? 4 姚先生:都冇咩嘢講,多數都係講安全措施嘅。 5 李澍桓大律師:即係出入棚架記得要戴安全帶、求生繩。 6 姚先生:係。 7 李澍桓大律師:有冇同你講生口嘅問題? 8 姚先生:冇乜嘅。 9 李澍桓大律師:你喺嗰度工作期間有冇留意到其實個棚架上面去到某一啲層數會有生口,咁 10 你知唔知? 11 姚先生:冇乜留意,我哋打天面落,打地下走嘅,跟住搭𨋢上嚟嘅。 12 李澍桓大律師:聽你提供,即係畀警方嘅口供,就係17 號開始喺宏昌上面正式做洗石嘅工 13 夫,係咪? 14 姚先生:係,係。 15 李澍桓大律師:就我而家方便大家去跟你嗰個證供,我想你睇番一張圖,咁呢張圖就係當其 16 時你提供畀警方嘅,作口供嘅時候。 17 姚先生:係。 18 李澍桓大律師:係唔係應該最先做就做1 座,跟住2 座,跟住就到第--即係我講座,即係單 19 位,1 號單位、2 號單位,跟住26 號當日就做到去第3 號單位嗰個外牆? 20 姚先生:係。 21 李澍桓大律師:喺呢幾個單位當你要做洗石嘅時候,你有冇留意到其實喺個棚架上面仲有其 22 他工人? 23 姚先生:我哋冇嘅,冇留意到,因為我哋一日到黑都一人一條水喉長啡嘅,冇其他人埋到 24 去。 25 李澍桓大律師:我知,你嗰邊冇人埋到去。 26 姚先生:係。 27 李澍桓大律師:有冇見到宏昌閣有其他嘅工人出現? 28 姚先生:冇咩嘢見到嘅。 29 李澍桓大律師:你哋自己望唔到? 30 姚先生:我哋一開工就負責洗石,就冇留意其他嗰啲。 31 李澍桓大律師:亦都冇同其他工人有接觸嘅? 32 姚先生:冇嘅,冇嘅,好少,極少嘅。 33 李澍桓大律師:但係我相信你都同意就係宏福苑,甚至乎就係宏昌閣唔會淨係得你兩個工人 34

Evidential Hearing in relation to fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po

A Court Reporting Transcript by Epiq 53

喺度,即係你同阿蓮喺度開工㗎嘛? 1 姚先生:我哋兩個淨係負責洗石,其他我哋都睇唔到、見唔到。 2 李澍桓大律師:睇唔到、見唔到有其他工人? 3 姚先生:即係其他嗰啲工人我哋好少同佢哋接觸,我哋係負責洗石,佢哋其他行業,我哋唔 4 知㗎。 5 李澍桓大律師:我哋試下一步步嚟,因為都好小心,我哋要搞清楚你嘅證供。 6 姚先生:係。 7 李澍桓大律師:你有見到有其他工人嘅,同唔同意?係唔係咁嘅情況?不過就冇同佢哋有接 8 觸,冇交往嘅,... 9 姚先生:冇嘅。 10 李澍桓大律師:...我呢個講法公道嘛? 11 姚先生:係。 12 李澍桓大律師:不過冇同佢哋接觸,冇交往嘅,我呢個講法公道嗎? 13 姚先生:係。 14 李澍桓大律師:喺你做到嗰個下午,即係話大概開始聽到有人哋話火警嘅時候,你自己就應 15 該冇走到過去睇發生咩嘢事嘅,係咪? 16 姚先生:睇唔到咩嘢事,我哋聽到下面有一個人嗌火燭,跟住有少少燶味,跟住即係懷疑係 17 火燭,跟住個喉都抌咗,嗰度又爬緊上。 18 李澍桓大律師:你記唔記得當時係唔係應該做到大概係27 樓? 19 姚先生:係,係咁上下。 20 李澍桓大律師:跟住從棚架就爬番上去天台? 21 姚先生:係。 22 李澍桓大律師:天台有冇嘗試過搵方法離開嗰座大廈? 23 姚先生:冇辦法離開到。 24 李澍桓大律師:點解冇辦法? 25 姚先生:因為我行過去樓梯口,嗰個防火門嗰度打開嚟,嗰啲煙冚冚聲出嚟。 26 李澍桓大律師:呢度講緊仲喺天面,即係你哋仲喺天台? 27 姚先生:係,我哋要天面落,就冇辦法,維生。 28 李澍桓大律師:即係話由天台想行番入個大廈入面都行唔到? 29 姚先生:行唔到㗎嘞,全部畀煙圍困咗。 30 李澍桓大律師:安全課嘅時候有冇同你哋講話譬如遇到火警嘅時候要點樣處理? 31 姚先生:有,佢有唔知講咩嘢下面咩嘢地方集合嘅,即係有火警嗰個問題,但係我哋逃生唔 32 到。 33 李澍桓大律師:有冇同你哋講譬如如果係嘗試要救火嘅話,有啲乜嘢消防設備畀你哋去用? 34

Evidential Hearing in relation to fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po

A Court Reporting Transcript by Epiq 54

姚先生:我哋冇消防設備嘅,我哋自己攞水嚟撥。 1 李澍桓大律師:天台咁你...(聽不清) 2 姚先生:天台著咗火。 3 李澍桓大律師:有冇滅火筒喺度? 4 姚先生:冇嘅,我睇唔到有。 5 李澍桓大律師:主席,我冇其他嘅問題。 6 陸啟康法官:請問其他涉事方有冇人想提問?如果冇嘅話,姚生,今日好多謝你出庭作供。 7 姚先生:我補充一句,大致上我兩個人同樣一個問題,就係咁多。 8 陸啟康法官:Okay,唔該晒。 9 姚先生:我哋出出入入都係兩個,做嘢又係兩個,冇其他,唔該晒你。 10 陸啟康法官:Okay,唔該晒你,唔該。 11

12 15 時34 分海德營造工程有限公司外牆清潔工人姚順友先生作供完畢 13 15 時34 分宏福苑居民證人羅曉琪女士開始作供 14

15 杜淦堃資深大律師:主席。 16 陸啟康法官:係。 17 杜淦堃資深大律師:主席,今日最後一位證人係羅曉琪女士。羅女士,麻煩你面前有個聲 18 明,請你企起身讀出嚟。 19 羅女士:本人羅曉琪,聲明本人所作的證供盡本人所知、所悉及所信,均屬真實。 20 陸啟康法官:請坐,羅小姐。 21 杜淦堃資深大律師:羅小姐,資料顯示你媽媽同哥哥係喺宏昌808 嘅,居住嘅。 22 羅女士:係。 23 杜淦堃資深大律師:而喺今次嘅火災裏面,你媽媽不幸地遇難嘅? 24 羅女士:係。 25 杜淦堃資深大律師:為咗今次嘅協助委員會,你都係做咗一份比較詳細嘅證人供詞嘅。 26 羅女士:係。 27 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋或者可以喺螢光幕嗰度稍候都會展示出嚟,咁除咗一啲個人資料, 28 其實你都講低咗你想講嘅事情,有幾點我想同你睇一睇嘅。就係當日你提到你係3 29 點02 分喺你家庭嘅WhatsApp 群組裏面知道宏昌閣有火警,係咪? 30 羅女士:係。 31 杜淦堃資深大律師:你知道呢個消息之後,你哋點做? 32 羅女士:當日係媽咪喺我哋三人群組,我同哥哥同佢嘅群組裏面send 咗一個訊息就話火 33 燭,咁哥哥跟住就回覆問「邊度?」然後媽咪就話「喺屋企。」跟住我打電話畀媽 34

Evidential Hearing in relation to fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po

A Court Reporting Transcript by Epiq 55

咪嘅。 1 杜淦堃資深大律師:你喺你嘅證人供詞第9 段有描述呢個情況,你打去你係搵到你媽咪嘅, 2 係咪? 3 羅女士:搵到嘅,係。 4 杜淦堃資深大律師:你可唔可以重複你同媽咪之後嘅對話? 5 羅女士:我當其時都即係問下佢「咩嘢事?邊度火燭?」咁媽咪當時聲音都比較驚嘅,就話 6 打開大門都有煙,見到有好大煙,我話叫佢搵毛巾𠓼住個大門,佢自己都仲係好清 7 醒咁答到我話𠓼到下面又𠓼唔到上面,我假設啲煙已經係喺上面攻緊入嚟,跟住我 8 嘗試都係叫佢冷靜啲,因為驚起上嚟好慌張嘅,即係乜都做唔到咁樣,我叫佢「冷 9 靜啲,你不如你睇下啲火喺邊度嚟喇?」我相信佢係有去檢查,我有問佢嘅,即係 10 係廚房見到火定係喺廳,因為我哋屋企有幾面嘅窗,亦都有廚房、廁所唔同嘅方向 11 嘅窗,我嘗試幫佢諗下即係啲火其實喺邊度嚟嘅,佢都話「死嘞,死嘞,即係今次 12 死嘞,即係啲」--佢有話畀我知話「周圍都見到有火光同埋有煙」。 13 杜淦堃資深大律師:而你亦都記錄低,喺第10 段嗰度見到你媽媽同你講嘅說話,係咪? 14 羅女士:係,我最初就真係叫佢--我諗住同佢講話「你攞濕毛巾掩口鼻喇」,因為佢走唔 15 到,佢同我表示,佢走唔到嘅時候,咁你用濕毛巾掩口鼻匿廁所,我仲教佢,我都 16 唔知啱唔啱,要等人嚟救。咁嗰陣時就媽咪之後最後就係講話叫我同哥哥好好生 17 活,咁跟住我就話「我而家返嚟」,咁樣跟住所以就收咗線嘅。 18 杜淦堃資深大律師:因為你同你媽媽有對話,你亦都轉述咗當時個情況,所以時間比較緊 19 要。你知道呢啲時間係因為你應該電話度有記錄低,你及後都有核實過嘅? 20 羅女士:冇錯,係。 21 杜淦堃資深大律師:所以根據你咁講,其實15:03 嘅時候,應該你媽媽嘅單位裏面係已經 22 被濃煙係攻陷咗,係咪? 23 羅女士:係,冇錯。 24 杜淦堃資深大律師:而你亦都提到整個過程你同媽媽講咗大約五分鐘,係咪? 25 羅女士:係。 26 杜淦堃資深大律師:你都聽唔到有火警鐘,係咪? 27 羅女士:聽唔到。 28 杜淦堃資深大律師:你之後大概幾多點去到宏昌? 29 羅女士:我當其時同佢收咗線之後,我喺觀塘嘅,我喺觀塘就馬上坐的士返屋企,咁途中都 30 好心急,所以喺途中都有不斷嘗試打電話,所以都有電話紀錄究竟我幾時打過畀 31 佢,我就記得因為最後我係搭的士返到去石油氣站,屋企對出嗰個石油氣站嗰度落 32 車,因為塞滿晒車,咁我落車嘅時候,就係馬上影低咗一啲相同埋片段,所以就清 33 楚記得嗰陣時係三點半,而且我落車嘅時候已經有一啲火屎係由宏福苑嗰度彈到過 34

Evidential Hearing in relation to fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po

A Court Reporting Transcript by Epiq 56

嚟,所以其實係好犀利已經燒得。 1 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想問一問你另外一方面嘅問題,就喺大廈維修期間,有冇啲關於火警 2 風險嘅嘢你哋討論過或者你哋作出過投訴? 3 羅女士:正式投訴應該冇嘅,但係我哋當其時只係覺得我哋成座大廈都封晒發泡膠板,又封 4 晒嗰啲綠色嘅圍網,咁其實呢啲窗又唔係好打得開,同埋早期嘅時候,其實都係好 5 大塵同埋好大煙,空氣質素好差,咁所以我哋淨係覺得係喺屋企裏面成日都睇唔到 6 出面,即係心情就好差,會覺得好depress,即係唔想留喺屋企裏面咁樣囉。 7 杜淦堃資深大律師:多謝你。除咗你嘅證人供詞同你頭先補充嘅事情之外,有冇其他嘢你想 8 同委員會係趁呢個機會去表達? 9 杜淦堃資深大律師:好,主席同埋委員,即係首先係好感謝你哋去有今次呢一個調查,我自 10 己作為遇難者嘅家屬,其實係好想搵出真相,好想知道點解--即係我最後同我媽咪 11 講嘢只講咗幾分鐘,幾分鐘之後就咁大煙、咁大火,究竟係乜嘢原因令到個火警咁 12 嚴重,又冇警鐘,火警嗰個水缸又冇水,令到救火好困難,其實係好多樣嘢造成今 13 次嘅大火,我相信即係死一個人我哋都係嫌多,今次仲一百六十幾人,如果呢度一 14 百六十幾人嘅人命先至可以喚醒香港,我覺得真係實在係太大嘅代價。 15 我嚟呢個委員會之前,我申請做涉事方,係因為我真係好想知道真相,本身對 16 委員會其實冇咩嘢期望講真,因為唔敢--唔知道究竟其實大家係有幾認真去對待呢 17 件事。但係我由第一日嘅聽證會坐到而家,我係感受到大家係好認真對待呢件事, 18 好多文件要睇好長嘅時間,我係相信委員會係有咁樣嘅能力,同埋你哋會徹查到 19 底。如果法例上面係有漏洞嘅,咁一定要填補,因為唔會再有一個宏福苑要犧牲, 20 所以即係要搵出原因嘅同時一定要填補呢啲漏洞,同埋要搵到係邊啲人去造成今次 21 嘅大火,佢哋嘅疏忽佢哋有冇責任。 22 我早兩日嗰啲居民出嚟,每個人都好自責,佢哋都覺得自己可以承擔更加多, 23 咁喺呢件事上面關事嘅單位,政府部門同埋一啲建築商人,佢哋係咪都應該負上責 24 任呢?所以我好希望懇請委員會可以畀到我哋遇難者同埋一千九百幾戶人嘅一個公 25 道。多謝你哋。 26 杜淦堃資深大律師:多謝你,羅小姐。主席,我冇其他問題。 27 陸啟康法官:咁其他涉事方有冇其他提問? 28 譚俊傑大律師:係,我就有一條問題要補充嘅啫。請你睇番16 段嗰度,你就話你有確認到 29 母親嘅說法正確,因為你曾到808 室探望母親,係咪? 30 羅女士:係。 31 譚俊傑大律師:你喺事發之前最後一次去到808 室係幾時? 32 羅女士:最後一次係11 月19 號。 33 譚俊傑大律師:好,唔該晒。 34

Evidential Hearing in relation to fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po

A Court Reporting Transcript by Epiq 57

陸啟康法官:唔該晒,羅小姐作供。我哋亦都喺社交媒體見到你接受訪問,我哋都覺得對你 1 媽咪而離去感到非常之--希望你節哀順便。我諗唯一我哋可以畀番你媽咪嘅就係我 2 哋會全力做番一個公正同埋全面嘅調查,話番畀你聽究竟係發生咗咩嘢事,我哋會 3 盡我哋嘅力嘅。 4 羅女士:多謝你。 5 陸啟康法官:請你放心。 6

7 15 時44 分宏福苑居民證人羅曉琪女士作供完畢 8

9 杜淦堃資深大律師:主席,我哋今日安排嘅證人已經作供完畢。 10 陸啟康法官:咁我哋下一次就會下個星期一? 11 杜淦堃資深大律師:冇錯。 12 陸啟康法官:就仲有四日,咁仲會有啲宏福苑嘅居民嘅? 13 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,會有宏福苑嘅居民,跟住就會去到其他嘅單位,同一日晏晝應該會 14 開始其他嘅單位。 15 陸啟康法官:Okay。而家嘅進度都係? 16 杜淦堃資深大律師:進度都係合預期嘅。 17 陸啟康法官:合預期,okay。好,咁我哋而家就會--喺我哋今日完結之前,我諗我都係作 18 出同樣嘅呼籲,我諗我哋都見到傳媒嘅朋友係非常之合作嘅,我哋亦都多謝你合作 19 同埋你哋嘅理解。但係我諗我都--容許我再囉嗦都好,都係再提醒一次,希望各位 20 係尊重各位今日出席作供嘅宏福苑嘅災民,如果佢哋係想接受訪問嘅,咁可以;如 21 果佢哋唔想接受訪問,希望大家理解。 22 我哋今日聆訊就完結,到到下個星期一朝頭早10 點鐘係繼續。 23

24 15 時45 分聆訊押後 25 (聆訊將於2026 年3 月30 日10 時00 分繼續) 26

27

FD06244 | 2025_港澳台_香港宏福苑大火_Transcript-(Chinese)_20260330.pdf

分类:06_境外及港澳台调查报告 | 年份:2025 | 地域:香港 | 严重程度: | 场所: | 起火原因: | 来源格式:pdf

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第五天 本謄本由Epiq 編製

就大埔宏福苑火災成立的獨立委員會

聽證會

高等法院原訟法庭陸啟康法官 陳健波議員 歐陽伯權博士

日期: 第五天 2026 年3 月30 日

俞匡庭大律師, 李澍桓大律師, 杜淦堃資深大律師,馮天榮大律師, 張天風大律師及李俊軒大律師代表獨立委員會

許偉強資深大律師, 何卓衡大律師及楊志聰大律師代表置邦興業有限公司

卓元暢大律師, 孫靖乾資深大律師及劉逸冲大律師代表政府

林樂夫大律師代表宏泰消防工程有限公司

律政司代表

呂世杰資深大律師及阮文躍大律師代表市區重建局

譚俊傑大律師及李峰琦大律師代表宏福苑居民

競爭事務委員會代表

合安管理有限公司代表律師

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第五天 1 本謄本由Epiq 編製

以下內容乃聆訊數碼錄音謄本 1

2 10 時00 分聆訊恢復 3 10 時01 分宏福苑居民證人葉家駒先生開始作供 4

5 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,主席、兩位委員,今日我哋會繼續有幾位元宏福苑嘅居民,首先會 6 嚟協助我哋嘅,第一位係葉家駒先生。早晨,葉先生。 7 葉家駒先生:早晨。 8 杜淦堃資深大律師:葉先生,首先可唔可以麻煩你企一企起身讀出你前面嘅聲明。 9 葉家駒先生:本人葉家駒聲明,本人所作嘅證供,盡本人所知、所悉及所信,均屬真實。 10 杜淦堃資深大律師:多謝你,葉生。葉先生,我哋知道你之前都接受過一啲媒體嘅訪問。 11 葉家駒先生:係。 12 杜淦堃資深大律師:我諗可能在座有好多人都有睇過或者接觸過,我哋亦都知道你太太不幸 13 咁喺今次嘅火災裏面遇難,我哋知道呢個情況對你嚟講好困難,亦都特別多謝你喺 14 呢個情況之下都嚟到幫助我哋。葉生,你嘅律師幫你做咗一份頗詳細嘅證人陳述書 15 嘅。我想帶你去睇你證人陳述書裏面嘅一啲段落。 16 葉家駒先生:好。 17 杜淦堃資深大律師:睇下你有冇補充,同埋有冇啲咩你想講一講。 18 葉家駒先生:好。 19 杜淦堃資深大律師:麻煩將葉先生嘅證人陳述書展示出嚟。 20 陸啟康法官:係咪喺...(聽不清) 21 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,Bundle 2,O107--O107/1361。葉生喺1-6 段,我哋慢慢掃 22 落去就會睇到其實都係講述咗一啲你背景同埋你家庭嘅情況,我哋知道你住喺宏泰 23 1701 室? 24 葉家駒先生:係。 25 杜淦堃資深大律師:而火警當日你係同你太太居住喺嗰個單位嘅? 26 葉家駒先生:係。 27 杜淦堃資深大律師:你嘅幼子同你嘅媳婦都係住喺宏昌閣,佢哋住喺607? 28 葉家駒先生:係,佢哋結咗婚之後搬咗出去,咁佢哋喺宏昌嗰度買咗個單位。 29 杜淦堃資深大律師:你係邊一年搬去宏泰閣嗰個單位? 30 葉家駒先生:2003 年左右。 31 杜淦堃資深大律師:喺你講述咗背景之後,由第7 段開始,我哋而家見到螢光幕就講出咗當 32 時發現火警嘅經過,你提到你太太打開咗個窗就睇到宏昌閣起火,就呢一段你同你 33 太太當時嘅對話,你可唔可以講畀我哋知當時嘅情況係點發生火警嘅時候? 34

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第五天 2 本謄本由Epiq 編製 葉家駒先生:其實嗰陣時我仲喺睡房嗰度瞓緊,咁我太太就淨係話「好似火燭喎」咁,咁跟 1 住我就起身同佢一齊,我先睇一睇我哋自己屋企有冇嘢,然後佢聞到好大陣火噥 2 味,因為我哋(English Spoken)嗰個窗推開之後就係望到宏昌閣,亦都望到 3 吐露港。咁佢打開個窗,就見到佢話嗰度好多煙,佢話畀我聽嗰度好似火燭,其實 4 喺嗰一刻佢都唔係好肯定究竟係唔係火燭,佢只係覺得嗰度係火燭。 5 杜淦堃資深大律師:你哋之後就發覺咗,其實宏昌閣個火勢好犀利,我哋見到第8 段開始。 6 你可唔可以都講一講畀大家聽,你當時係留意到邊度著火? 7 葉家駒先生:我太太叫我落去睇究竟係咪真係火燭,咁我一落去嘅時候,我喺宏泰閣個大門 8 一出去,因為嗰陣時係有一個搭咗築棚嘅一個通道,所以我要行出個通道我先睇 9 到,個位置其實都幾近宏昌嘅,我見到係喺宏昌後邊嗰面有啲火好犀利,係--係喺 10 --喺嗰個時候我見到係喺宏昌後邊嗰度嘅火嚟嘅,嗰陣時我已經見到啲火係湧緊過 11 嚟,同埋嗰個高度係越嚟越高,火燒到,見到佢。 12 杜淦堃資深大律師:換句話講,你喺離開你個單位嗰陣,其實你睇唔到嗰個火警,係咪? 13 葉家駒先生:我係唔知道係火警嘅,因為喺嗰嗰陣時,我當係落街去了解下究竟發生咩嘢 14 事。 15 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋喺閉路電視睇到,你係大概1.0--3.0,我哋而家睇到,呢個係唔 16 係你嚟㗎? 17 葉家駒先生:係,係。 18 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,我哋見到3:03 分你落𨋢嘅。 19 葉家駒先生:係。 20 杜淦堃資深大律師:之後你提到你經過嗰個單車棚嗰度嘅,係咪? 21 葉家駒先生:嗰度係-- 嗰陣時係我已經--因為有警察開始話--佢話嗰度好多嘢跌落嚟開 22 始,佢話嗰度好危險,叫我哋離開嗰度去一個安全嘅地方。咁喺嗰陣時,我係行-- 23 因為喺嗰度,我係褪番入去,經過單車棚行番出去唸住,咁喺嗰陣我係已經係要打 24 電話畀我太太,我覺得係佢應該要走。 25 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋亦都睇到喺3 點04 分宏昌閣個閉路電視見到呢個畫面,呢個相信 26 都你嚟嘅。 27 葉家駒先生:係。 28 杜淦堃資深大律師:跟住你喺你嘅證人陳述書第8 段及之後,你描述嗰個火勢嘅。我哋去呢 29 度之前,基於啱啱打咗條片出嚟,我都想問一問你,我哋見到呢個影,你都同我哋 30 提過,你之前我哋喺呢個聽證會較早階段嘅時候播過呢條片嘅。 31 葉家駒先生:係。 32 杜淦堃資深大律師:你係見到你自己? 33 葉家駒先生:係。 34 杜淦堃資深大律師:而家螢光幕見到係咪你? 35 葉家駒先生:係我嚟嘅。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第五天 3 本謄本由Epiq 編製 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢個就係你啱啱所講稍後你行過呢個位置? 1 葉家駒先生:係,我其實喺嗰陣時你會見到隔籬嗰位(English Spoken)佢係開始趕我 2 走,其實佢喺出面已經趕我走㗎嘞,佢要我離開個現場,佢話嗰度好危險。其實我 3 想返番上去都唔可以返上去。 4 杜淦堃資深大律師:你證人供詞提到你企咗喺一個位嗰度觀察個火勢嘅。 5 葉家駒先生:係。 6 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想畀你睇一睇有一個地圖,A2/IC3,你講唔講到大概喺邊個位? 7 葉家駒先生:可以,我點指示到? 8 杜淦堃資深大律師:首先,你講畀我哋聽。 9 葉家駒先生:E 座呢個係宏泰。 10 杜淦堃資深大律師:係。 11 葉家駒先生:藍點就係我哋個出口,即係我哋所謂大門。 12 杜淦堃資深大律師:係。 13 葉家駒先生:咁F 座就宏昌。 14 杜淦堃資深大律師:係。 15 葉家駒先生:咁我個位置應該藍點對出少少嗰度。 16 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,呢度,係咪? 17 葉家駒先生:後番少少,係,差唔多。 18 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,所以你第8 段證人供詞裏面你講到你觀察火勢大概喺頭先你指出呢 19 個位,係咪? 20 葉家駒先生:係。 21 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔該晒。你8 段嗰度形容你見到啲火屑從宏昌閣跌落地下,亦都燒著咗 22 地下嘅一啲物品嘅。 23 葉家駒先生:係。 24 杜淦堃資深大律師:你可唔可以都就呢一段同我哋講一講你當時嘅觀察? 25 葉家駒先生:我嗰陣時見到嗰啲火已經開始慢慢向住宏泰嘅呢個方向蔓延過嚟,亦都見到好 26 多火屑,嗰陣時見到,其實我見唔到嗰啲係乜嘢嚟,但係見到好多--佢彈出嚟嘅時 27 候,跟住佢有條煙,有條煙咁嘅尾,係好明顯,咁佢周圍彈嘅,我見到有啲彈咗落 28 花叢,即係話呢度有條紅線呢個位置,下面呢度,下面。 29 杜淦堃資深大律師:下面。 30 葉家駒先生:係嘞,係嘞,即係彈過嚟呢面花叢,另外有啲就彈咗過去G 座嗰面,我見到佢 31 彈咗落個棚網嗰度嘅時候,係睇住啲棚網即時著火,而且個火勢係好大嘅。 32 杜淦堃資深大律師:你個證人供詞提到火屑係四圍亂彈。 33 葉家駒先生:係。 34 杜淦堃資深大律師:你見到佢彈咗去G 座嗰度。 35 葉家駒先生:有。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第五天 4 本謄本由Epiq 編製 杜淦堃資深大律師:可唔可以話畀我哋知道嗰個高度大概係幾多?高層、中層、低層? 1 葉家駒先生:嗰度睇--我記憶嘅就係大概係4 至5 樓左右。 2 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔,除咗G 座呢個位,你仲有冇見到彈去第二度? 3 葉家駒先生:草叢嗰面囉,同埋垃圾站。 4 杜淦堃資深大律師:有冇見到燒著其他嘢? 5 葉家駒先生:有,草叢即時著火。 6 杜淦堃資深大律師:草叢著咗火? 7 葉家駒先生:嗄,同埋喺F 座嗰個對住公路呢面佢有棵大樹,嗰棵大樹都著火。 8 杜淦堃資深大律師:邊個位呀大概嗰棵大樹? 9 葉家駒先生:唔係呢度,唔係呢度,過啲,我點講?個平面呢度,呢個係再通過嚟呢面,係 10 嘞,係嘞,係嘞,大概高少少。呢個平面呢個位。 11 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢個位? 12 葉家駒先生:唔係,呢面,下低,下低,係,呢個對出少少,係嘞,大概呢個位置。 13 杜淦堃資深大律師:你第8 段亦都講到好快你就見到宏泰閣個正門當時係唔可以離開,係 14 咪? 15 葉家駒先生:係,因為我見到嗰棵樹著咗火之後,跟住就更加多嘅嘢跌咗落地下,喺嗰個時 16 候個地下係即時好似個火海咁樣,係好快脆,即係一個好短嘅時候就「馮」一聲成 17 個火海咁。咁而呢啲火係好快速咁向住呢個宏泰閣蔓延,亦都燒著咗宏泰出面嗰個 18 通道嗰啲棚網。其實喺呢個時候我已經退到後D 座嗰個位置㗎嘞。 19 杜淦堃資深大律師:之後你睇,如果我哋睇番你嘅證人供詞第9 段,你描述到你同你太太嘅 20 對話嘅,當時。 21 葉家駒先生:係。 22 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁你嘗試打畀你太太喇。 23 葉家駒先生:呢個係第一次打電話㗎嘞,因為我見到嗰啲火已經蔓延得好快,燒到去宏泰嗰 24 個出口,基本上我喺我嗰個角度見到係已經封住咗出口,係冇可能喺嗰度行出去, 25 所以我再打電話畀佢,我叫佢唔好落嚟,因為落到嚟佢都出唔到去,我喺嗰個時 26 候,我覺得佢返屋企係最安全嘅。 27 杜淦堃資深大律師:你打畀太太嘅時候係幾多點?你知唔知? 28 葉家駒先生:呢一個我記憶應該係十幾分嘅。 29 杜淦堃資深大律師:你提供咗一張照片畀警察嘅,係喺第6 個Bundle,B5/47,Bundle 30 6/B5/47,係呢張,係咪? 31 葉家駒先生:係。 32 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢個係你打完電話畀太太之後先影嘅,係咪,第二次? 33 葉家駒先生:呢個係我第二次打畀我太太之後影嘅,sorry,應該係我影完之後先打畀我太 34 太,因為我將呢張相係發咗去我哋家族群組,我其實想話畀我細仔聽,佢嗰度著火 35 火燭。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第五天 5 本謄本由Epiq 編製 杜淦堃資深大律師:好嘞,我哋睇番你嘅證人供詞,你喺第11 段開始就講述咗你太太捨身 1 救人嗰個經過嘅,你提到你災後你同屋企人排隊攞津貼嘅時候,遇到同層1706 嘅 2 鄰居同埋另外1703 嘅鄰居,你可唔可以都講一講畀大家知嗰個情況? 3 葉家駒先生:其實唔係我遇到1703 嘅,係1706 嗰陣時佢同我講,佢話最後見到我太太嘅 4 人應該係03 嘅個家姐,佢話係佢喺東窗(譯音)嗰度見到家姐,家姐同佢講番, 5 當日我太太拍佢門叫佢走,其實呢個我係喺一個好偶然嘅機會,同埋事後先知道嘅 6 呢件事。 7 杜淦堃資深大律師:你事後知道嗰位--你所講嗰位年輕女士係邊一位咁樣? 8 葉家駒先生:林小姐。 9 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,林燕明小姐? 10 葉家駒先生:係。 11 杜淦堃資深大律師:第11 同12 段好詳細咁講述咗你發現你太太救人個經過嘅,你會唔會想 12 讀一讀出嚟畀大家聽? 13 葉家駒先生:其實我淨係想講一樣嘢,我太太去拍門只係一個好普通,一個佢認為作為隔籬 14 鄰舍應該要有嘅一個舉動,我相信其實喺其他嘅街坊聽佢哋講番,佢哋都有做相同 15 嘅動作,喺我嚟講其實呢一個一個係好簡單、好普通,而一個一般人都會做嘅一個 16 動作。 17 杜淦堃資深大律師:你喺當日你除咗搵你太太之外,我相信你有同警方、同消防都有接觸過 18 嘅?有打過電話嘅? 19 葉家駒先生:有,我打咗警察嗰個緊急熱線,唔知18 咩嘢999 嗰個,我打咗好多次,亦都 20 報咗好多次我太太嘅資料、地址,其實喺報呢個警察緊急熱線之前,頭先喺段片見 21 到嘅嗰個(English Spoken),我係第一個同佢報嘅,佢亦都用佢身上面嗰個 22 對講機同我報咗上去,咁佢同我講,佢話「我已經報咗上去㗎嘞,你放心,有人會 23 救佢㗎嘞」。咁跟住我就離開咗。 24 杜淦堃資深大律師:葉生,你喺--慢慢。 25 葉家駒先生:冇事,冇事。 26 杜淦堃資深大律師:喺13 段打後,我哋見到13、14、15 段,你就開始講述當時一啲施工 27 嘅情況嘅。 28 葉家駒先生:係。 29 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋留意到其實你都講得好清楚,發泡膠遮窗嘅日子嘅。 30 葉家駒先生:係,因為我哋有影到相,嗰個日子我哋係憑影相嗰個資料記得番嘅。 31 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想你睇一睇有幾張相嘅,應該係由你同-- 或者你嘅家人拍攝嘅, 32 O1/B1/63 頁開始。 33 葉家駒先生:係,呢個係我個仔個單位,呢個係一間房嚟嘅,呢個都係。 34 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋一路睇65 到68 頁。 35 葉家駒先生:呢度喺我嗰面個單位嚟嘅。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第五天 6 本謄本由Epiq 編製 杜淦堃資深大律師:係嘞,63、64 就係你仔仔宏昌607 嗰度,係咪? 1 葉家駒先生:係。 2 杜淦堃資深大律師:而65 開始呢,就係你宏泰... 3 葉家駒先生:宏泰1701,同埋有一張係1702 嘅。 4 杜淦堃資深大律師:係。所以你喺證人供詞14 段中就提,你就話搭棚工程喺7 月開始喇。 5 葉家駒先生:係。 6 杜淦堃資深大律師:跟住然之後,你亦都繼續講到喺9 月28 號,工人就將啲發泡膠板貼咗 7 喺你仔仔嗰個住所個窗戶上高? 8 葉家駒先生:係。 9 杜淦堃資深大律師:而就宏泰方面,你就講到搭棚工程係喺2024 年9 月開始。 10 葉家駒先生:係。 11 杜淦堃資深大律師:而係喺11 月24 日貼上發泡膠板嘅。 12 葉家駒先生:係。 13 杜淦堃資深大律師:你知唔知道大約2024 年9 月到10 月,有幾多座貼咗發泡膠板,你有 14 冇留意? 15 葉家駒先生:呢個我唔能夠好準確咁講到。 16 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔,但係你仔仔嗰度就好清楚。 17 葉家駒先生:係,冇錯,因為佢住得比較低層,我估計佢哋上面嗰度應該都貼晒㗎嘞,因為 18 佢由上面做茖嚟。 19 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係貼發泡膠板呢個工程係由上而下? 20 葉家駒先生:係。 21 杜淦堃資深大律師:你好清楚記得呢樣嘢嘅? 22 葉家駒先生:係。 23 杜淦堃資深大律師:去你嘅證人供詞第18 段,你呢度講到話你印象中,宏業嘅代表曾經話 24 畀你哋聽發泡膠板係喺你哋單位外牆附近打鑿嘅時候貼上係一個保護嘅作用,打鑿 25 完係會移走嘅,係咪呀? 26 葉家駒先生:係,佢哋係咁講過,呢一個只係一個臨時,喺佢哋打鑿嘅時候,為咗防止嗰啲 27 碎石打爛我哋嘅玻璃而做嘅一個保護作用。 28 杜淦堃資深大律師:你記唔記得呢個對話大概係幾時發生?貼咗未㗎嗰陣你個單位? 29 葉家駒先生:未,未。 30 杜淦堃資深大律師:未,唔。你記唔記得係同邊個講嘅呢,呢番對話? 31 葉家駒先生:我記得應該就喺工程會上面,宏業嘅人講嘅。 32 杜淦堃資深大律師:你幫唔幫到我哋大概係幾時?當時譬如你仔仔個單位貼咗未? 33 葉家駒先生:未,嗰陣時應該係未開始貼呢個發泡膠板嘅。 34 杜淦堃資深大律師:跟住如果我哋去睇番20 段,你就提到吸煙嘅問題。 35 葉家駒先生:係。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第五天 7 本謄本由Epiq 編製 杜淦堃資深大律師:你一直都有投訴吸煙嘅問題,係咪? 1 葉家駒先生:唔,我嗰陣時已經有去參與佢哋嘅工程會,咁其實喺工程會嗰度好早嘅時候已 2 經開始有人投訴,亦都有討論過,咁其實呢個狀態下持續咗一段好長嘅時間,即係 3 話不斷都有人投訴,但係就好似不斷都持續。 4 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋知道你都影咗啲相嘅。 5 葉家駒先生:係,我影咗一張。 6 杜淦堃資深大律師:如果我哋睇番Bundle O1/B4/70 頁。你自己影咗啲煙頭嘅相,呢個 7 喺邊度? 8 葉家駒先生:呢個係我(English Spoken)嗰個窗推開嗰個所謂窗尾上面,我係影到, 9 見到有支咁嘅煙仔,而呢一隻咁嘅煙,我覺得應該唔係我哋香港人會食嘅煙嚟嘅。 10 杜淦堃資深大律師:之後你有冇跟進你嘅投訴? 11 葉家駒先生:我喺工程會嘅時候交咗--即係我畀咗宏業嘅代表睇過,佢都覺得呢啲煙好似係 12 佢哋啲工人嘅煙嚟嘅,佢話會幫我跟進。 13 杜淦堃資深大律師:你投訴之後,喺工程期間,你覺得吸煙嘅問題有冇改善過? 14 葉家駒先生:冇,雖然我冇見過,但係陸陸續續都有好多唔同嘅街坊都有講,亦都有提過, 15 我哋甚至乎喺夜晚有陣時落中央公園嗰度,大家都會攞嚟講嘅。 16 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢個就係食煙嘅問題,之後你都提到棚網嘅問題,去番你證人供詞第22 17 段,你提到喺颱風華加沙侵襲之後,有啲棚網受到損毀,你都講到有啲棚網係被更 18 換,你話留意到嗰個顏色有落差係咪,新舊嘅網? 19 葉家駒先生:係,係,嗰個顏色係相差好遠㗎。 20 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔嗯,你提到新棚網係比較淺色? 21 葉家駒先生:淺色,同埋單薄,我感覺係好單薄,即係話嗰個棚網嘅網線,我睇落去同以前 22 棚網個網線係冇咁粗嘅,係幼身啲㗎,個網眼都好似大啲嘅。 23 杜淦堃資深大律師:你亦都提到,你話之後有一次工程會議,你有出席到,你亦都有將呢件 24 事攞出嚟討論嘅,係咪? 25 葉家駒先生:嗰個唔算係討論,嗰個差唔多係工程會議完咗,我同Gordon 講,我畀張相佢 26 睇,佢就係笑笑口,冇回應。 27 杜淦堃資深大律師:之後據你所知,你或者你嘅街坊有冇更進呢件事? 28 葉家駒先生:呢個我唔清楚,我只係估計法團應該有跟進。 29 杜淦堃資深大律師:你影咗張相畀Gordon 睇嘅? 30 葉家駒先生:係。 31 杜淦堃資深大律師:喺O1/B5/71 頁,呢張係你指嗰張相,係咪呀? 32 葉家駒先生:係。以前最早期落咗棚網,我係唔能夠清晰咁望到窗外風嘅景嘅,咁呢一張棚 33 網我可以睇到外面個形狀係乜嘢。 34 杜淦堃資深大律師:除咗頭先講到呢幾方面,就大維修嘅其他事情,你有冇一啲觀察或者就 35 嗰個火警風險同大家討論過或者作出過任何投訴? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第五天 8 本謄本由Epiq 編製 葉家駒先生:就火警風險,我係冇作出過任何投訴嘅。但係對於大維修工程,我哋係有好多 1 意見同埋問題。 2 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔。你第25 段打後呢,你嘅證人陳述書你就提到開業主大會嘅一啲問 3 題。 4 葉家駒先生:係。 5 杜淦堃資深大律師:如果我哋睇26 段,你首先就講授權票嘅問題。 6 葉家駒先生:唔。 7 杜淦堃資深大律師:你提到你話發覺有大量嘅授權票就放咗入個投票箱,你哋呢啲授權票邊 8 度嚟就唔清楚嘅,呢一個問題喺--你可唔可以都講講畀我哋知,喺街坊或者居民之 9 間一啲嘅討論。 10 葉家駒先生:或者我咁樣講,喺成個業主大會嗰個有議程要議決嘅時候,一般嚟講親身出席 11 嘅業主就會係用身份證登記,然之後就攞到一份所謂投票嘅嗰啲票,咁而授權票則 12 被授權嘅人係會有另外一條隊,喺嗰度亦都係要憑身份證去攞番佢所擁有嘅票,所 13 以換句話講,係每一個人喺進入會場之前其實都已經係攞咗啲票口㗎嘞,然之後先 14 再入會場嗰度喺現場投票。但係我哋見到嘅就係當喺投票嘅過程中--進行中,置邦 15 嗰啲人--職員佢哋會攞住一個透明嘅箱畀我哋將啲票抌入去。咁我哋見到嘅唔係一 16 個正常坐喺嗰度,或--就算佢係被授權嘅人,佢都應該係坐喺嗰度去投票,而我哋 17 見到嘅並唔係咁樣,係當個票箱差唔多我哋現場嘅人投晒票之後,佢搦上去台準備 18 點票嘅時候係有人喺嗰度抌落去嘅。 19 杜淦堃資深大律師:而嗰個數量係多唔多? 20 葉家駒先生:好多,一疊。 21 杜淦堃資深大律師:你喺27 段就提到曾經都被拒絕進入呢啲業主大會,係咪? 22 葉家駒先生:係。 23 杜淦堃資深大律師:當時嘅情況係點? 24 葉家駒先生:嗰次我大概喺邊次,我唔記得嘞,應該係對上我哋做呢個污水渠嘅時候,咁我 25 同太太係--因為佢7 點鐘開始,咁我哋係6 點接近7 點鐘去到,其實喺嗰陣時, 26 我哋已經見到好多街坊係喺個社區會堂出面,嗰陣時個社區會堂佢嗰個玻璃大門係 27 閂咗,佢話入面已經坐滿人嘞,我哋唔能夠入去。其實喺嗰時候我哋都有鼓噪嘅, 28 我哋就係話點解我哋係業主唔入得,而咁我哋亦都--因為嗰個係玻璃門嚟,我哋係 29 可以喺出面望到入面嘅情況,我哋見到好多人其實我哋係唔識嘅。 30 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢件事之後有冇人跟進過? 31 葉家駒先生:冇,因為其實可以咁樣講,當嗰啲需要議決嘅事項係比較重要啲嘅時候,好多 32 時候都係有咁嘅情況出現嘅。 33 杜淦堃資深大律師:至於入唔到會場參加呢啲會議,除咗你本人之外,有冇聽過街坊--其他 34 街坊都有類似嘅情況? 35 葉家駒先生:有。當時其實喺我... 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第五天 9 本謄本由Epiq 編製 杜淦堃資深大律師:普唔普遍? 1 葉家駒先生:普唔普遍,因為我之後我哋都冇再去嘞,我覺得其實呢啲咁樣嘅業主大會我哋 2 係起唔到咩嘢作用,因為就算我--即係除非我真係好早入咁去,如果唔係嘅話,我 3 其實根本入唔到去。 4 杜淦堃資深大律師:接住落嚟,我想你睇一睇第30 段,你講到--你提到就係喺2024 年1 5 月28 日呢個特別業主大會之前,收唔收到報價呢個問題,即係知唔知個工程? 6 葉家駒先生:唔知嘅。 7 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁你係幾時先知道係要總工程價格同埋每戶嗰個要夾幾多錢? 8 葉家駒先生:係佢出--用律師出咗一封信通知我哋,話畀我哋聽係分幾多期,每期分幾多 9 錢,總數幾多錢,嗰陣時我哋先知嘅。 10 杜淦堃資深大律師:根據法團嘅紀錄,如果我哋睇G1/2/46/1506 頁,法團嘅紀錄就話到 11 鴻毅曾經喺2023 年12 月19 日向每一戶派發咗呢個投標價格嘅總括一覽表嘅。 12 葉家駒先生:唔,我唔記得。 13 杜淦堃資深大律師:而亦都提過就話,資料提到就話有五十七間承建商,投標資料喺2024 14 年1 月15 至17 日,亦都有喺會議室嗰度展示嘅。 15 葉家駒先生:呢個有可能,但係呢啲對於我哋嚟講係一啲資料,其實我哋係完全冇idea 究 16 竟係咩嘢嚟。 17 杜淦堃資深大律師:如果睇番你嘅證人供詞第32 段開始,你就提到新管委會嘅問題。 18 葉家駒先生:係。 19 杜淦堃資深大律師:你提到舊管委會被罷免,新委員會上任,之後嘅情況係點樣樣,有冇改 20 善,你可唔可以解一解釋畀我哋聽? 21 葉家駒先生:喺新任--即係新管委會上任咗之後,係好多嘢係我哋可以參與到嗰個程度係大 22 咗嘅,咁喺我哋嗰陣時,大家都好著意同埋好關心大維修嘅事,咁所以亦都係因為 23 通過新任管委會,我哋先至可以攞到嗰份合約返屋企慢慢睇、慢慢研究。 24 杜淦堃資深大律師:接下來你證人供詞就講到,喺37 段開始你就有一個投訴就係話,你話 25 鴻毅喺工程會議上畀人嘅感覺係強烈偏袒宏業嘅。 26 葉家駒先生:係。 27 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁你提出咗兩個例子嘅,一個就係個外牆用料嘅爭議。 28 葉家駒先生:係。 29 杜淦堃資深大律師:另外個例子就係嗰個窗眉嗰個問題,個鋼筋嘅問題。 30 葉家駒先生:係。 31 杜淦堃資深大律師:你可唔可以略略咁講一講畀委員會聽?我知道你證人供詞都提咗,但係 32 如果你想解釋一下。 33 葉家駒先生:其實喺工程合約原本就係以紙皮石作為呢個外牆飾面,咁亦都係我哋本身座大 34 廈原本都係用紙皮石,咁喺舊法團,我用「舊法團」去形容,佢哋簽咗呢份合約之 35 後唔係好耐嘅時候,咁佢哋就同我哋講,當然,呢個我係聽番嚟嘅,話宏業同佢哋 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第五天 10 本謄本由Epiq 編製 講呢啲紙皮石已經停產咗,咁係要轉一隻叫做二四吋瓦仔。但係我哋就會覺得如果 1 一早停產咗,咁宏業又點可以有一個實際嘅報價出到嚟嘅?咁呢度3 億3 佢又憑乜 2 嘢去計算出嚟嘅?咁我哋係第一個質疑嚟嘅。 3 跟住宏業就佢哋自己就即刻出咗一個聲明,佢就話唔係佢哋話要去轉二四吋瓦 4 仔,亦都講咗並冇停產,佢話喺國內係有工廠可以幫佢哋起模重新做嘅。咁喺呢件 5 事上面,我哋已經係覺得法團有法團嘅講法,宏業有宏業嘅講法,咁到最後法團係 6 轉咗佢嘅講法,佢話係因為有啲業主想靚啲,所以要求轉二四吋瓦仔,咁呢個前後 7 不一嘅講法,我哋就已經覺得係好有問題㗎嘞,咁最主要一樣嘢就係喺成個過程裏 8 面鴻毅所擔當嘅角色,佢係幫宏業係做晒一連串嘅所謂比較價錢,各方面嘅嘢,咁 9 喺佢嗰個比較上面,我哋見得到嘅就係佢係將二四吋瓦仔講到非常之好,紙皮石係 10 一文不值。甚至乎佢畀咗我哋睇嘅報價,紙皮石嘅報價有三個,有晒品牌,有晒產 11 地,紙皮石報價得一個,冇品牌,冇產地。 12 杜淦堃資深大律師:瓦仔三個,係咪?你嗰三個報價係瓦仔,係咪? 13 葉家駒先生:瓦仔,係,紙皮石得一個,冇品牌、冇產地。 14 杜淦堃資深大律師:好,另外你都提出咗個窗眉嘅問題,你可唔可以都講一講? 15 葉家駒先生:係,窗眉嗰度,佢最--佢就話畀我哋聽,最初嗰度係牽涉到三樣嘢,係冷氣機 16 台、窗眉同埋窗扇,咁佢就同我哋講佢打鑿咗之後,佢發覺呢三個地方嘅兩邊都有 17 唔同程度嘅缺失,即係話短咗,佢話呢個短咗係原先喺起樓嘅時候就已經係咁㗎 18 嘞,但係嗰個短咗嘅程度係各個單位都唔同嘅,咁當然佢咁樣講,亦都我知道法團 19 都曾經向呢個屋宇署問過,去呢個房委會問過,但係佢嗰陣時係講番出嚟係話,好 20 似即係佢ICU 嗰陣時,我哋起樓嗰陣時ICU 都未有嘅,所以佢都冇辦法答我哋呢 21 個問題。咁喺呢度,佢係畀咗三個方案畀我哋去選擇,有一個就係由得佢,即係短 22 咗就短咗。但係佢就加咗一句「我哋會可能違反公契」。 23 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢個係邊個同你講? 24 葉家駒先生:鴻毅佢做嗰個表出嚟嘅時候講嘅,佢話如果我哋咁做,有機會違反公契。另外 25 第二個就係補番佢,即係短咗幾多就補番幾多,咁佢就有個價錢畀我哋去計算。第 26 三個就叫我哋拆咗佢。 27 杜淦堃資深大律師:就你見到一啲你哋覺得有問題嘅事情,你第38 段嗰度提到你同埋江先 28 生,江祥發先生同李國雄(譯音)先生,係咪? 29 葉家駒先生:係。 30 杜淦堃資深大律師:曾經喺2025 年2 月14 號去咗市區重建局個辦公室度投訴嘅。 31 葉家駒先生:係。 32 杜淦堃資深大律師:你可唔可以都講一講嗰日嘅情況畀我哋聽? 33 葉家駒先生:嗰日--其實喺嗰日之前,李生、江生同埋我,我哋攞咗份合約之後發覺好多唔 34 合理嘅地方,好多我哋覺得係濫收嘅地方,咁李生就(english spoken)晒所 35 有嘢,圈住我哋覺得有咩嘢問題嘅地方,咁我哋就當時我哋同埋新法團嘅副主席同 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第五天 11 本謄本由Epiq 編製 埋司庫一齊去長沙灣市政局嗰度去見嗰位--一位任生同埋佢另外仲有一個經理。 1 杜淦堃資深大律師:應該係--係咪一位陳先生? 2 葉家駒先生:應該係,佢有兩位人去接見我哋。咁我哋當時就畀佢睇番嗰啲我哋準備咗嘅文 3 件畀佢睇,我哋話畀佢聽邊度唔合理,邊度有問題,咁佢當時話佢將嗰啲文件攞咗 4 去影印,然之後就同我哋講佢會將呢啲文件交畀市建局,有兩位獨立嘅顧問,幫佢 5 哋去睇一睇,然之後再約下一次開會同我哋再傾嘅。 6 杜淦堃資深大律師:之後有咩嘢事發生? 7 葉家駒先生:之後就係冇之後,之後話係--佢係直接同法團聯絡,同法團講,佢哋市建局只 8 係負責資助,呢一類咁嘅情況佢哋係唔理嘅,叫我哋直接搵番顧問。 9 杜淦堃資深大律師:個問題喺邊度,你當時覺得? 10 葉家駒先生:問題就係我哋去投訴嘅就係顧問,你又叫我搵番顧問,咁我可以點做? 11 杜淦堃資深大律師:葉先生,你頭先略略咁解釋咗你嘅證人供詞裏面一啲嘅證據,你喺第61 12 段做咗個總結係關於你太太嘅。 13 葉家駒先生:係。 14 杜淦堃資深大律師:委員會會當然睇到你呢個總結,我想問你嘅就係除咗證人供詞裏面講嘅 15 嘢之外,你有冇其他嘅事情想用呢個機會同委員會講?親身。 16 葉家駒先生:有,我可唔可以睇住? 17 杜淦堃資深大律師:可以。 18 葉家駒先生:首先,我多謝你畀個機會我喺度講,其實我真係有啲嘢想同委員會講。由杜大 19 律師喺開案--開場陳詞嗰度,我已經隱約見到真相好似慢慢咁浮出水面,但係我哋 20 希望得到嘅唔單單係還原真相,而係要一個交代,我哋對委員會係絕對信賴,得到 21 一個真實嘅真相畀我哋一個交代,還我哋一個公義,我相信係所有宏福苑嘅人所熱 22 切期盼嘅。 23 喺過去咁多日,我都聽到好多街坊不停咁自責,話自己做得唔夠好,甚至乎我 24 都覺得我做得唔夠好,如果我早一分鐘打電話畀我太太,佢可能會冇事,但係我就 25 見到有一班應該要負責嘅人就千方百計咁去迴避。我係相信政府係願意深入咁改 26 革,但係如果用1984 戶嘅流離失所,168 條寶貴生命,七十幾個要面對漫長復康 27 之路嚟到做交學費,呢個代價太大。 28 而令到更加可惜嘅就係,政府代表律師嘅陳詞有畀我覺得,原來一貫做法、恒 29 常做法,照足程序,法例冇講,依然係根深蒂固咁樣存在嘅一個陋習,成為咗公務 30 員辦事嘅準則。喺佢嘅專業領域裏面佢都唔願意行多一步,冇發揮好佢哋應該要有 31 嘅功能,唔單只係侮辱咗佢哋自己嘅職責,仲侮辱咗佢嘅專業。喺優秀嘅公務員團 32 隊裏面,唔係淨係做咗件事,係要做好件事。換句話講,如果我嘅理解就係,喺某 33 一件事上面,某一個部門佢嘅工作範疇可能因為佢嘅職權或者條例所限,佢覺得佢 34 唔夠,做唔到,唔關佢事。但係調番轉講可唔可以咁樣去諗,喺佢個職責範圍、功 35 能裏面,有乜嘢係關佢事嘅,佢係咪應該去諗下佢有乜嘢係可以做得好啲?而唔係 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第五天 12 本謄本由Epiq 編製 淨係話「唔關我事」就算數。 1 喺成個火災裏面,就係由一連串嘅疏失而導致,少做少錯,唔做唔錯,呢啲咁 2 樣嘅陋習到咗今日,如果需要負責嘅人仍然喺度選擇推卸責任,試問佢點可以畀宏 3 福苑嘅居民一個交代?檢討今次呢個災難,改革陋習,防止悲劇再次發生,好重 4 要。但係有份令到呢件災難發生嘅人如果仲可以輕輕帶過,咁佢點樣向我哋交代? 5 我記得特首曾經講過「無論職位再大,權力再大,要負責嘅人就要負責到底」,我 6 希望係能夠真正落實。 7 同埋我覺得而家對於建築條例可能係有好多唔同程度嘅規管,但係似乎都只係 8 針對緊係一啲新起嘅樓宇,而對於一啲好似我哋宏福苑呢類咁樣大維修,喺做緊工 9 程嘅同時,裏面--有人喺裏面住嘅,嗰個規管係咪應該更加嚴格、要求要更加高? 10 打個比方,可能喺現時所有嘅條例裏面係冇規管到封窗呢樣嘢,因為喺新起嘅大 11 廈,我相信係唔會封窗嘅。但係有冇人去審視過,其實當呢個工程進行時候,裏面 12 係有人喺度居住、有人喺度生活嘅時候,啲條例其實夠唔夠? 13 我想借呢個機會,我係感謝杜大律師團隊佢花咗好多時間,為我哋去還原個真 14 相。我哋都好感謝譚大律師團隊、文律師團隊,佢哋支持我哋,協助我哋。同埋我 15 仲想講多一樣嘢,我想向當日喺火災現場嘅所有前線嘅消防員、救護員、警務人員 16 致敬,佢哋辛苦呀,多謝。 17 杜淦堃資深大律師:主席,我哋冇其他問題。 18 陸啟康法官:有冇其他涉事方想提問? 19 阮文躍大律師:係,主席、兩位委員,我有一個好簡短嘅問題,就想有少少嘅提問。葉先 20 生,你好,咁我係代表市建局嘅。 21 葉家駒先生:Sorry,聽唔清楚。 22 阮文躍大律師:我係代表市建局嘅。咁頭先你提到就係,或者可以睇番第38 段,咁有少少 23 問題想同你澄清。 24 葉家駒先生:係。 25 阮文躍大律師:你38 段就提及到,你同有啲嘅業主同埋副主席、召庫,上到市建局去裏面 26 就作出投訴嘅。裏面嘅其實當時你哋討論嘅內容,就係牽涉到同宏業個合約裏面有 27 啲嘅條款,係咪? 28 葉家駒先生:係。 29 阮文躍大律師:裏面包括咗保險,係咪? 30 葉家駒先生:係。 31 阮文躍大律師:包括窗眉? 32 葉家駒先生:係。 33 阮文躍大律師:亦包括水電嘅接駁? 34 葉家駒先生:係。 35 阮文躍大律師:你喺38 段亦提到,你哋知道市建局之後有作出回覆嘅? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第五天 13 本謄本由Epiq 編製 葉家駒先生:係。 1 阮文躍大律師:你知唔知道嗰個回覆係直接回覆--係一個電郵嘅方式回覆嘅? 2 葉家駒先生:呢個我唔清楚,呢個只係法團同我哋講番「冇下一次開會嘞」。 3 阮文躍大律師:明白。咁你知唔知道其實裏面個電郵個回覆,就住頭先提及水電、接駁、窗 4 眉,同埋呢一個嘅保險,亦有一定嘅答覆畀番你哋嘅業主立案法團嘅,你知唔知道 5 裏面嘅內容? 6 葉家駒先生:我係唔知道嘅。 7 阮文躍大律師:好。我冇其他問題,但係我會攞取指示之後,可能會將有關嘅電郵提供番畀 8 委員會嘅,唔該晒。 9 陸啟康法官:唔該晒。葉生,我諗你頭先你所講嘅說話,大家都聽得好清楚。我諗你同你太 10 太嘅遭遇,我諗相信都係令到我哋--敲響我哋好多人嘅--香港人嘅心,咁亦都喺傳 11 媒嗰度都睇到你嘅無奈,我哋深深感受得到。我哋好多謝你對委員會嘅信任,亦都 12 好多謝你今日咁勇敢出嚟,亦都咁辛苦要將件事再講過一次。我哋冇咩嘢可以講, 13 我哋只可以話畀你聽,我哋委員會一定會盡力,用心去完成我哋嘅調查工作,所以 14 今日好多謝你出席,多謝。 15

16 10 時49 分宏福苑居民證人葉家駒先生作供完畢 17 10 時50 分宏福苑居民證人林燕明女士開始作供 18

19 陸啟康法官:我喺度提一提,各個涉事方如果想提問嘅時候,根據呢個嘅通則,其實我哋係 20 要申請嘅,睇下你問嘅問題有冇關係。但係我諗如果你問問題係短嘅話,就唔需 21 要,因為我諗可以--你同我講得完,你都可能問完。如果各位係諗住係要有一個比 22 較長時間嘅盤問或者問問題嘅話,就請你哋跟番個指示係作出或者畀個理由我哋, 23 但係如果好似頭先咁就唔需要嘞,不過我提一提醒你哋係有一個嘅--喺嗰個我哋個 24 程序嗰個章程係有咁嘅規定嘅。係,可以傳召下一位證人。 25 杜淦堃資深大律師:主席,下一位證人係林燕明小姐。係,林小姐早晨,同之前證人一樣, 26 我都要麻煩你企起身讀一讀前面嗰份聲明。 27 林燕明女士:本人林燕明聲明,本人所作的證供,盡本人所知、所悉及所信,均屬事實。 28 杜淦堃資深大律師:麻煩你,林小姐,請坐。林小姐,我哋知道你係住喺宏泰1703 嘅。 29 林燕明女士:冇錯。 30 杜淦堃資深大律師:換句話講,你係頭先嗰位葉先生嘅鄰居? 31 林燕明女士:係。 32 杜淦堃資深大律師:火警發生嘅時候,你喺屋企嘅? 33 林燕明女士:冇錯。 34 杜淦堃資深大律師:你可唔可以同大家解釋一下,當時你係點樣知道有火警,同埋你之後所 35 遇到嘅事情? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第五天 14 本謄本由Epiq 編製 林燕明女士:當日我喺屋企,咁就喺屋企聽到走廊好嘈,所以我就開咗門,開門嘅時候,我 1 見到葉太講緊電話,同埋我隔籬屋嘅鄰居都開咗門,咁佢哋兩個係對話緊嘅。咁葉 2 太見到我開咗門之後就同我講話「家姐,宏昌閣火燭,好大火好大煙,你快啲返屋 3 企閂番好啲窗」咁樣。咁就我之後閂番門之後就入咗屋企個洗手間,咁就開咗個細 4 窗,諗住望一望,睇下會唔會睇到宏昌閣究竟發生咩嘢事,咁就開咗窗之後乜都睇 5 唔到,因為有啲竹棚同埋欄網遮住咗,但係開咗窗之後就聞到少少嘅煙味,咁嗰陣 6 時我就打算換衫,咁就落一落樓睇下究竟發生咩嘢事,咁就但係未意識得到係咁大 7 件事。咁隔咗一陣我換咗衫之後,就再聽到走廊都係葉太把聲,咁我再開門,葉太 8 就同我講話「家姐,你可能要執定嘢」咁樣。之後我閂番門之後,我就帶埋隻狗出 9 就再門口,出門口嗰刻我就見到隔籬屋嘅鄰居都係啱啱準備出門口,但係我就見唔 10 到葉太喺條走廊度。之後就由17 樓行樓梯落到樓下大堂... 11 杜淦堃資深大律師:我停一停你先,我哋知道葉生、葉太係1701 單位嘅住戶。 12 林燕明女士:冇錯。 13 杜淦堃資深大律師:你頭先提到見到另外嘅鄰居係邊個單位? 14 林燕明女士:正正我隔籬嗰個單位。 15 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係1704? 16 林燕明女士:係,冇錯。 17 杜淦堃資深大律師:你見到有幾多位鄰居嗰陣? 18 林燕明女士:我見到應該係有兩個大人、一個小朋友,應該係嫲嫲同埋工人姐姐,再加一個 19 小朋友咁樣。係嘞,咁就我一直行樓梯落去都半信半疑,因為係我唔見到有人,聞 20 唔到煙味,亦都冇警鐘,咁就直至我落到樓下大堂,都係好似冇事,點知我一開大 21 堂個門,就見到宏昌閣好大火,係連個花槽都著咗火,咁就好大煙,我喺正門行唔 22 到出去,所以我轉咗左邊擺單車位嗰個位置,咁發覺有十幾個街坊已經企咗喺嗰 23 度,又入唔到屋,又出唔到去,因為當時非常大煙,同埋不停有啲著咗火嘅紙屑跌 24 緊落嚟,咁所以我哋就喺嗰度停留咗一陣咁樣。 25 杜淦堃資深大律師:打斷你一下先,我哋螢光幕見到一個畫面,我哋相信係當時你同你隻狗 26 嚟嘅? 27 林燕明女士:冇錯。 28 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋推斷番,呢個係3 點12 分,其實係早咗一分鐘嘅應該係,如果用 29 呢個時間去推斷番,你聽到葉太話有火警嘅時候大概會係幾時? 30 林燕明女士:我諗應該3 點--2 點55 分左右,佢同我講宏昌閣著火嘅時候。 31 杜淦堃資深大律師:換句話講,如果講番你初初知道有火警嘅時候,你應該係見到葉太兩次 32 嘅,係咪? 33 林燕明女士:冇錯。 34 杜淦堃資深大律師:喺第二次見完葉太之後,你同隻狗就離開咗? 35 林燕明女士:冇錯。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第五天 15 本謄本由Epiq 編製 杜淦堃資深大律師:你冇見過葉太,係咪? 1 林燕明女士:我就--係,因為我一出門口,個樓梯嘅大門就喺我屋企對面,咁我冇轉去--我 2 冇行出去嗰條走廊嗰度望到,望下葉太走咗未,嗰刻喺我屋企對出嘅走廊我就見唔 3 到葉太喺度,所以我就以為佢走咗。 4 杜淦堃資深大律師:你提到--喺你畀委員會嘅資料裏面提到你係由樓梯走嘅,正如你頭先所 5 講。 6 林燕明女士:冇錯。 7 杜淦堃資深大律師:走嘅時候,你啱啱講咗你冇聽到火警鐘嘅? 8 林燕明女士:冇聽到。 9 杜淦堃資深大律師:你另外有一個觀察嘅,就係其實你一路走嗰陣,你知唔知自己走到第幾 10 樓? 11 林燕明女士:唔知道。 12 杜淦堃資深大律師:點解呢?你可唔可以講一講? 13 林燕明女士:因為我隻狗其實嗰個行動都唔係好好,咁佢行得好辛苦,咁我又睇到我究竟行 14 到一層,我發覺係冇咗個樓層嘅字數,一路行我都係見唔到樓層嘅字數,我唔知點 15 解會冇咗樓層嘅字數,如果唔係因為呢件事,我唔會無端端去行樓梯,我就係嗰一 16 刻我先發覺原來嗰啲樓層嘅字數唔知係唔係畀人用白油油走咗。 17 杜淦堃資深大律師:好嘞,你頭先講到你成功離開咗宏泰閣之後發生嘅事,我打斷咗你,你 18 可唔可以繼續講當日及後嘅情況? 19 林燕明女士:及後就喺宏泰閣放單車嗰個位置,咁我哋就停留咗喺度,都見到有班街坊企咗 20 喺度,因為好大煙同埋好多火屑跌緊落嚟,大家都唔知應該點個囉,咁嗰陣時我有 21 一刻係想抱番隻狗行番入大堂,可唔可以避下啲煙,咁又有另外一個街坊同我哋講 22 話「我哋唔好跑番入去嘞」咁樣。跟住之後宏泰閣佢有個垃圾房嘅位置,有條好窄 23 好窄嘅通道,佢就帶咗我哋一齊喺嗰個位置度跑咗出去,就係咁。 24 杜淦堃資深大律師:你有養狗㗎? 25 林燕明女士:冇錯。 26 杜淦堃資深大律師:我相信有養狗嘅人都知道你要帶隻狗可能喺宏福苑嘅附近會去行下平 27 時。 28 林燕明女士:係。 29 杜淦堃資深大律師:喺大維修嘅過程你有經常出入屋苑,亦都有經常喺屋苑附近行? 30 林燕明女士:冇錯。 31 杜淦堃資深大律師:你對於當時有冇咩嘢特別嘅觀察呢?對於呢個大維修。 32 林燕明女士:當時其實管理處喺維修中途有一啲意見書,我曾經係投訴過,因為我每一日六 33 點幾、七點就會落去放狗,咁一定會經過宏昌閣,宏昌閣後面有個通道可以直接行 34 出去吐露港嘅,我每朝早六點幾、七點嘅時候就會見到有一班工人每朝早都會喺宏 35 昌閣隔籬嘅石凳嗰度聚集同埋食煙,咁佢哋每次嗰啲煙頭都會放咗喺--都會擗咗喺 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第五天 16 本謄本由Epiq 編製 宏昌閣對出--宏昌閣出面佢哋會擺咗啲竹棚同欄網喺下面嘅,咁佢哋每次我都會見 1 到好多煙頭擺咗喺側邊,所以我就喺嗰個意見書嗰度寫過,投訴過。 2 杜淦堃資深大律師:你投訴咗之後,有冇改善過? 3 林燕明女士:投訴咗之後,我見到多咗--因為石凳側邊我見到就多咗一個好似一個桶咁樣, 4 畀佢哋裝煙頭,多咗個桶畀佢哋裝煙頭,但係我每一日見到嘅其實都仍然係擗咗喺 5 啲竹棚同埋欄網嗰度,都係喺宏昌閣附近。 6 杜淦堃資深大律師:多謝你。除咗你啱啱講咗畀我哋知當日嘅經過同埋你之前嘅投訴之外, 7 你有冇其他嘢想藉住呢個機會同委員會講? 8 林燕明女士:我好想藉呢個機會多謝葉太同埋佢一家人,我希望可以呢件事搵到一個真相, 9 還葉太同埋其他街坊--葉太一個咁善良同埋咁好嘅人,唔應該最後得到咁嘅遭遇, 10 我希望可以搵到一個真相還佢哋一個公道。 11 杜淦堃資深大律師:主席,我冇其他問題。 12 陸啟康法官:有冇其他涉事方想問問題?我諗其實你頭先所講嘅嘢,葉生同埋佢嘅家人都聽 13 到嘅,我哋委員會亦都會盡力完成我哋嘅工作,去還原番個事實出嚟。多謝你喺今 14 日咁困難嘅時候再要嚟到複述一次呢個慘痛嘅經歷,不過但係你嘅作供對我哋非常 15 之有用。多謝你今日出席。 16

17 10 時59 分宏福苑居民證人林燕明女士作供完畢 18 11 時00 分宏福苑居民證人羅德沛先生開始作供 19

20 杜淦堃資深大律師:主席,接住落嚟下一位證人係羅德沛先生。 21 陸啟康法官:我諗羅生可以坐喺度讀佢個聲明。 22 杜淦堃資深大律師:多謝主席。羅生,你可以坐喺度。你見到你前面有個聲明,慢慢你。 23 係,麻煩你將聲明讀出。 24 羅德沛先生:本人羅德沛聲明,本人所作的證供盡本人所知、所悉及所信,均屬真實。 25 杜淦堃資深大律師:多謝你,羅先生。資料顯示你係住喺宏泰2008 室嘅,請問你係邊一年 26 搬入宏福苑嘅? 27 羅德沛先生:確實嘅年齡就講唔到,但係我只係知道我個仔六年級嘅時候我就搬入去,即係 28 而家我個仔四十幾歲,即係大約㗎咋,我記唔到幾時搬入去。 29 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白。換句話講,你喺宏福苑都住咗好多年,即係都係老街坊。 30 羅德沛先生:起碼都過咗廿年。 31 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想問一問你嘅就係當日發現火警嘅時候,從你提供嘅資料,我哋知道 32 你唔喺你嘅單位裏面,你出咗街,係咪? 33 羅德沛先生:正確。 34 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想畀你睇一睇以下呢張相,呢個係你嚟嘅,係咪? 35 羅德沛先生:係,正確。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第五天 17 本謄本由Epiq 編製 杜淦堃資深大律師:換句話講,我哋搵到嘅照片,就閉路電視紀錄睇到你應該係2 點53 分 1 落樓嘅,呢個快咗一分鐘,所以應該係2 點52 分落樓嘅,你點樣發現有火警落咗 2 樓之後? 3 羅德沛先生:我落咗去樓下大堂,出到門口之後,行到去垃圾站,大約係兩分零鐘喥,就聽 4 到宏昌閣嗰個方向有聲音,哩哩嘞嘞咁嘅聲,咁我擰轉頭望嘅時候,當其時宏昌已 5 經係燒到3 樓咁上下嘅,咁我跟住就睇到佢係冇十分鐘,睇到佢已經燒咗差唔多一 6 半,即係半棟樓咁上下,點解我會大約因到呢,因為我住20 樓,我住宏泰20 樓, 7 我睇到佢嗰個燒火嗰個高度同我哋20 樓唔係差得太遠,即係我估佢當其時已經係 8 燒到十幾樓已經。 9 杜淦堃資深大律師:我畀你睇一睇一幅地圖,A2/IC3,你可唔可以話到畀我哋知當日你發 10 現火警嘅時候,你企喺邊個位? 11 羅德沛先生:我企喺嗰個垃圾站,即係啱啱係近住學校,對住垃圾站嗰個方向,即係啱啱橫 12 線嗰個位置。 13 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢一度,係咪? 14 羅德沛先生:唔係,呢度,呢度,呢度,佢呢個垃圾站。 15 杜淦堃資深大律師:右邊? 16 羅德沛先生:係嘞,右邊呢個垃圾站,啱啱你而家紅色𡃈住嗰條嘅橫線。 17 杜淦堃資深大律師:𡃈住嗰度? 18 羅德沛先生:係嘞,係嗰個位置。 19 杜淦堃資深大律師:而家箭嘴嗰個位啱唔啱? 20 羅德沛先生:啱㗎嘞,差唔多係嗰個位。 21 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係換句話講,你會喺嗰個位睇到D 座同G 座嘅,係咪? 22 羅德沛先生:睇到宏昌,睇到宏昌啱啱嗰個正門,因為我哋宏泰同宏昌個正門大家係相對 23 嘅,我企嗰個位置就啱啱係望到宏昌個正門,同埋睇到喺後面嗰啲火係湧上去嘅, 24 當其時未燒到正門嗰邊嘅,淨係見到啲火喺後面嗰面上嘅。 25 杜淦堃資深大律師:你頭先描述咗個火燒得好快,你都提到有啲火屑嘅。 26 羅德沛先生:係,冇錯。 27 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想問下你,就係你見到啲火屑由邊一棟飄去邊一棟? 28 羅德沛先生:喺宏昌嗰度飄過去宏泰。 29 杜淦堃資深大律師:幾多樓大概個火屑飄過去? 30 羅德沛先生:如果你話講嗰個火屑飄到去呢,已經係去到10 樓以上。 31 杜淦堃資深大律師:你見到嘅火屑飄過去嗰陣,你有冇留意到有消防員在場? 32 羅德沛先生:當其時消防員就好快到咗。 33 杜淦堃資深大律師:換句話講,你見到火屑飄嗰陣,其實消防員已經到咗一段時間,係咪? 34 羅德沛先生:應該唔係好耐,唔係好耐。 35 杜淦堃資深大律師:除咗見到火屑由一棟樓飄去第二棟,你仲可唔可以幫到我哋講一講你有 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第五天 18 本謄本由Epiq 編製 冇其他嘅觀察呢,關於嗰個火勢? 1 羅德沛先生:嗰個火屑見到佢飄過去宏泰燒嘅時候,嗰啲棚網係冇熄到,係一路咁燒住,都 2 差唔多分幾鐘都冇熄過,嗰啲棚網嗰啲火種。咁就睇到佢嗰啲火屑一路向上飄,嗰 3 個火屑越嚟越高單位,一路高樓層單位都畀佢燒著。 4 杜淦堃資深大律師:你頭先提過--或者你喺聽之前嘅證人都有提到,就有啲棚網比較深色, 5 有啲比較淺色嘅,你知唔知? 6 羅德沛先生:係,正確,知道,見到嘅。因為佢之前鋪嗰啲棚網係深色到我哋基本上唔係好 7 睇到外面嘅街景,但係後期打完風之後鋪嗰啲就見到好疏,見到外面啲街景嘅。 8 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁你見到燒著嗰啲你有冇留意到係深色定係淺色,定係咩嘢都有? 9 羅德沛先生:因為我當其時睇到佢燒著嘅時候,因為我喺地下嚟,地面嚟嘅,我望番上去, 10 大約即係分唔到佢係深色定淺色嘅。 11 杜淦堃資深大律師:好嘞,我想問下你走嘅過程裏面有冇聽過火警鐘聲? 12 羅德沛先生:冇聽到。 13 杜淦堃資深大律師:相信你會聽到消防車嘅聲? 14 羅德沛先生:有,聽到。 15 杜淦堃資深大律師:有冇聽到有人叫人疏散? 16 羅德沛先生:我就聽唔到有人嗌疏散,淨係見到嗰啲保安員就嗌啲人走,唔好返轉頭。 17 杜淦堃資深大律師:另外我想問下你嘅就係喺大維修工程期間,有冇一啲就火警嘅事情你係 18 好擔心或者你投訴過嘅? 19 羅德沛先生:因為我係大約喺4 月尾喥,我收到第一張係管理處同埋法團聯合出嘅通告,而 20 嗰個通告就講話會閂咗個火警鐘同消防掣。 21 杜淦堃資深大律師:你等一等,我想睇下你指嘅通告係唔係呢一張。主席,R1/4/78 頁。 22 係唔係類似咁嘅通告? 23 羅德沛先生:係,正確,冇錯。 24 杜淦堃資深大律師:你想講嘅係--你頭先想講我打斷咗你。 25 羅德沛先生:因為我睇到呢一張通告,佢寫就話因為個工程而閂咗呢個消防掣同火警鐘、嗰 26 個水泵嗰啲問題,我覺得係好大問題嘅,因為當其時我亦都即刻落去保安嗰個座頭 27 問過個保安,確認咗佢係有呢件事同呢個通告。我亦都返番上樓去後樓梯望過冇消 28 防嗰個滅火器裝置,冇喺度嘅。當時我亦有打電話去問過管理處,管理處話因為個 29 工程所以先咁做,但係佢當其時亦都冇講過話呢工程而閂呢個消防掣係要閂幾耐嘅 30 時間,冇講過呢樣嘢。因為當其時係4 月,我冇諗過佢會閂呢個消防鐘,因為呢一 31 輪先聽到嗰個證詞講話佢陸陸續續閂咗半年,我冇諗過佢會閂咁耐時間。 32 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白。我哋見到呢一個通告裏面,就見到承辦商嗰個名稱係中華發展工 33 程有限公司,有個緊急聯絡電話。下面就睇到,佢講到明就係消防栓同埋個喉轆系 34 統涉及由地下到嗰個天台係閂咗嘅,至於有一系列其他嘅消防裝置就係呢度冇提到 35 係會被關閉嘅,例如火警警報系統。我想問你嘅係除咗呢一張之外,因為我哋見到 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第五天 19 本謄本由Epiq 編製 呢一張只係2025 年4 月2 號去到20 號嘅--即係7 號去到20 號,唔好意思,十 1 四日嘅啫。你哋有冇收過--呢啲咁嘅通告係成日收,定係以你嘅記憶淨係收過一 2 次? 3 羅德沛先生:我係淨係記得係收過一次。 4 杜淦堃資深大律師:係。 5 羅德沛先生:所以我冇諗過佢閂咗半年咁耐,我淨係覺得佢係唔係淨係嗰一次嘅工程而要閂 6 呢個消防系統。 7 杜淦堃資深大律師:除咗呢個關閉消防系統之外,有冇其他嘢你係曾經作出過投訴或者當時 8 係好擔心? 9 羅德沛先生:擔心就係頭先嗰啲街坊講食煙仔嘅問題,嗰個煙頭由佢工程第一日開始直至到 10 發生事之前,我日日都見到有煙頭嘅,我從冇話冇見過,尤其而家宏昌光井嗰䭅起 11 火點,我時常--因為我朝頭早係會出去行晨運,我會經嗰個位置去單車徑,日日都 12 見到一大堆煙頭喺度,我就從冇見到佢少過。就咁樣嘅,因為我見好多人都走去投 13 訴呢樣嘢,但係都好似完全冇改進過、冇變過咁囉,就覺得好似投訴都冇用。 14 杜淦堃資深大律師:多謝你。有冇其他嘢你想藉住呢個機會同委員會講? 15 羅德沛先生:我想借呢個機會就係講出,今次點解嗰啲街坊有百幾人死咗,而係我覺得今次 16 呢件事有好多方面係鋪咗呢條死亡之路喺度,法團主席佢知道嗰啲發泡膠會唔阻 17 燃,佢知嘅,咁點解佢會同我哋全部業主做咗決定係繼續會鋪呢個發泡膠落去呢? 18 點解唔將呢個決定權交番畀我哋業主決定,或者我哋決定換晒佢呢,係咪? 19 好嘞,管理公司我諗會有專業人士亦都會知道呢啲發泡膠唔阻燃,點解管理公 20 司嘅職責冇同我哋業主交代呢個問題呢?因為呢個問題我覺得係非常之嚴重,對今 21 次呢件事裏面,係咪?所以我覺得如果要講追究責任,除咗鴻毅同宏業要承擔責 22 任,管理公司同埋現任嘅業主法團主席都一樣要負呢個責任喺度,因為佢哋根本就 23 同我哋鋪咗呢個死亡之路,係咪?佢如果通過業主法團去投票,決定咗係唔改變, 24 咁大家業主就無話可說。但係完全佢冇做過呢個步驟,就同我哋業主決定咗繼續去 25 鋪呢個發泡膠,亦都冇同我哋解釋過,冇講解過話因為發泡膠係唔阻燃呢個問題, 26 冇講過。我相信聽證會今次會--應該會好顯現到呢個事實出嚟,同埋追究涉事人嘅 27 責任同埋單位。 28 同埋我亦都聽到呢一輪嘅證詞講,所有嘅涉及嘅政府部門都只係為咗佢哋呢個 29 制度去辯護,係冇一個政府部門會承認係佢哋嘅過錯,冇。只係辯護就辯護佢而家 30 嘅制度,但係喺而家呢個制度裏面呢,好似屋宇署同獨立審裁組已經嚴厲改咗嗰個 31 法規,但係點解唔會落到獨立審查組度,而獨立審查組只係依照舊嗰份規則去做 32 呢?咁呢個就係政府部門與部門之間大家唔可以通達到,係咪? 33 好似消防處,消防處聽佢證詞講就冇接過消防話會暫停消防鐘呢個通告,冇接 34 過。但根據呢個消防裝置承辦商講,佢十六次走去延期,我就覺得好出奇,消防處 35 就話冇接過呢個通告,而你承辦商嗰個講就話十六次通告,因為佢十四日、十四日 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第五天 20 本謄本由Epiq 編製 咁樣延續個通告。我就覺得就奇,一個就講冇收過通告,一個就話講咗十六次嘅通 1 告,咁實質個問題喺邊度呢?係邊一方面去弄虛作假呢?咁呢個問題你一定要追番 2 個原因出嚟,如果唔係,我覺得呢百幾人走咗,極其無辜,對佢哋自己嘅家屬亦都 3 係一個創傷同埋一個好嚴重嘅,因為佢哋咁樣弄虛作假,同埋大家嗰個法例唔可以 4 通達,而令到佢哋係第二次傷害,係咪?咁我表達係咁多,講完。 5 杜淦堃資深大律師:多謝你。 6 陸啟康法官:有冇其他涉事方想問?如果冇呢,我諗羅生你頭先所講嘅嘢大家聽到,呢個係 7 我哋獨立委員會會調查嘅方向,我哋聽咗頭先開案陳詞列出各樣嘢,我哋一定係會 8 查落去,搵出原因喺邊一度。 9 羅德沛先生:好,唔該,唔該。 10 陸啟康法官:現階段我哋仲要睇埋好多方面嘅解釋,睇下佢哋,我哋先可以作最終嘅結論 11 嘅。多謝你羅生今日出席。 12 羅德沛先生:好,唔該。 13

14 11 時17 分宏福苑居民證人羅德沛先生作供完畢 15

16 杜淦堃資深大律師:主席,我相信呢個可能係一個適當嘅時候小休,可唔可以要二十分鐘? 17 因為安排一啲錄音。 18 陸啟康法官:而家我哋個聆訊係休息二十分鐘。 19

20 11 時17 分聆訊押後 21 12 時06 分聆訊恢復 22

23 陸啟康法官:其實大家都可能好感慨,如果事發嗰日宏福苑個警鐘係響就好嘞,亦都可以睇 24 到警鐘嘅重要性。我哋亦都可以睇到消防嘅車好快嚟到,咁所以可能都係一個好好 25 嘅--畀我哋反省一下今次呢件事。咁我哋可以繼續我哋嘅聆訊。 26

27 12 時07 分宏福苑居民證人蘇曉峯先生開始作供 28

29 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,多謝主席。下一位嚟到協助我哋嘅係蘇曉峯先生。蘇先生,你好。 30 蘇曉峯先生:你好。 31 杜淦堃資深大律師:麻煩你企一企起身,將你面前嘅聲明讀出嚟。 32 蘇曉峯先生:本人蘇曉峯聲明,本人所作的證供,盡本人所知、所悉及所信,均屬真實。 33 陸啟康法官:喺未作供之前我提一提,請坐,請坐。我哋係可以叫個證人喺嗰度mark 嘅, 34 如果有需要嘅話,佢應該係有支筆可以喺圖嗰度mark 咗佢做呢個證物嘅,如果有 35 需要可以用呢一個嘅。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第五天 21 本謄本由Epiq 編製 杜淦堃資深大律師:多謝主席。蘇先生,你好,資料顯示你係住喺宏志604 室嘅? 1 蘇曉峯先生:係,冇錯。 2 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係我哋睇到其實你父母當時係宏昌2701? 3 蘇曉峯先生:係,冇錯。 4 杜淦堃資深大律師:嗰度--爸爸媽媽都係因為喺呢次火災嗰度不幸遇難。 5 蘇曉峯先生:係。 6 杜淦堃資深大律師:多謝你嚟協助我哋。你本身幾時搬入宏福苑嘅? 7 蘇曉峯先生:我本身1984 年至85 年左右? 8 杜淦堃資深大律師:本來係同父母同住? 9 蘇曉峯先生:係,搬入嚟之後直都一直同父母同住,直至結咗婚之後,我哋就買咗隔籬宏 10 志。 11 杜淦堃資深大律師:喺大維修過程裏面呢,我哋嘅理解係其實你同父母都有討論過一啲擔 12 心,同埋作出過一啲嘅投訴嘅? 13 蘇曉峯先生:係,冇錯。 14 杜淦堃資深大律師:首先,你可唔可以講一講你哋兩個單位,你哋曾經喺大維修嘅過程裏面 15 討論過一啲咩嘢問題? 16 蘇曉峯先生:早期係發泡膠比較多,因為知道發泡膠係一種易燃嘅物件,咁我亦都打過去消 17 防處嗰度查詢關於發泡膠嗰個問題。 18 杜淦堃資深大律師:除咗發泡膠嘅問題之外,有冇就第二個範疇都有類似嘅擔心? 19 蘇曉峯先生:後期當上年華懋大廈棚網大火之後都擔心過啲棚網係易燃嘅。咁我爹哋佢八十 20 幾歲,佢冇相關消防經驗佢都知嗰啲棚網係非常易燃,佢亦都同我哋講如果呢度發 21 生咁嘅事情,佢哋就死梗嘞。 22 杜淦堃資深大律師:就個發泡膠嘅問題,我哋從證據得知你係曾經有作出過投訴嘅? 23 蘇曉峯先生:係,冇錯。 24 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想你聽一聽一段錄音,跟住幫一幫我哋。 25 蘇曉峯先生:Okay。 26

27 (播放錄音) 28 [男聲:你好,消防處一般查詢及投訴熱線。 29 蘇曉峯先生:你好呀,姓蘇㗎。 30 男聲:係,蘇生你好。 31 蘇曉峯先生:冇,我想查詢關於我哋屋苑做緊一啲大維修。 32 男聲:唔。 33 蘇曉峯先生:咁我見嗰啲師傅就用咗啲發泡膠嚟封嗰啲窗呀,其實會唔會有問題呢? 34 男聲:唔,你講--你考慮嘅點係? 35 蘇曉峯先生:即係發泡膠比較易燃呢,會唔會--佢攞嚟做封窗會唔會有危險,定係啲乜嘢咁 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第五天 22 本謄本由Epiq 編製 樣呢? 1 男聲:等一等呀,你嗰度個地址...(聽不清) 2 男聲:大埔宏福苑。 3 蘇曉峯先生:宏福苑。 4 男聲:佢嗰度係做緊啲咩嘢工程? 5 蘇曉峯先生:做一啲即係大維修--屋苑大維修嗰啲工程。 6 男聲:唔明,屋苑個大維修嘅工程,即係外牆有啲工程? 7 蘇曉峯先生:係呀,外牆工程囉。 8 男聲:唔。 9 蘇曉峯先生:我諗佢要保護住啲窗,唔好整花或者乜嘢,咁佢攞咗啲發泡膠嚟封。咁啲居民 10 可能都會有個擔憂就係話,喂,嗰啲發泡膠都係易燃嘅物料嚟㗎嘛,咁會唔會有問 11 題呢?係,就係咁樣。 12 男聲:而家我呢度睇呢,即係你問--我呢度見喇,就話窗嗰--窗--關於窗戶嗰啲嘅--即係 13 關於窗戶上面用咗啲咩嘢封--用啲咩嘢物料封住嗰啲呢,咁我呢度睇就應該係冇特 14 別話有啲乜嘢規管嘅,係嘞。咁但係如果你有嗰個--你有個擔憂嘅話,咁你都可以 15 做個即係投訴,咁我哋都可以安排番人過嚟睇睇,係嘞。 16 蘇曉峯先生:係。 17 男聲:係嘞,你可以作出一個投訴,咁我哋呢度--即係覺得佢嗰個物料嗰度唔合規格呀即係 18 有啲,咁可以--我哋都可以安排番人嚟睇嘅,咁如果你有需要嘅可以作出一個投 19 訴,咁你而家需唔要做呢個投訴? 20 蘇曉峯先生:咁我叫法團搞,因為我唔係法團嗰啲人。 21 男聲:明白,明白,明白嘅。 22 蘇曉峯先生:好。 23 男聲:好,好。 24 蘇曉峯先生:唔該你先。 25 男聲:好,唔該你,唔該。 26 蘇曉峯先生:唔該,拜拜。 27 男聲:拜拜。] 28 (錄音播放完畢) 29

30 陸啟康法官:我想問,呢段錄音都係政府提供畀我哋嘅? 31 杜淦堃資深大律師:消防處提供。講番呢段錄音,資料顯示係喺2024 年9 月13 日你打畀 32 消防處嘅,嗰陣係咩嘢驅使你嗰日打去呢? 33 蘇曉峯先生:因為嗰日應該係封緊--即係做緊,封緊發泡膠囉開始,我記得就係,所以都係 34 一個擔憂。 35 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋知道居民有啲WhatsApp 嘅群組係同大維修有關嘅,其中一個叫做 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第五天 23 本謄本由Epiq 編製 「宏福大維修監察組」,而你係有加入呢個群組嘅? 1 蘇曉峯先生:係。 2 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋想你睇一睇就呢個WhatsApp 群組裏面嘅一啲紀錄。我哋而家顯示 3 嘅紀錄呢,係一啲喺9 月--2024 年9 月13 日一啲你哋發畀大家嘅訊息,其中有 4 一個電話我哋將部電話最屘嗰四個字就遮蓋咗,但係我哋見到呢,喺大螢幕中間有 5 一個「6382」字頭嘅電話,你可唔可以確認嗰個係你個電話? 6 蘇曉峯先生:係,冇錯。 7 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋見到你喺嗰個群組裏面亦都講咗一啲信息,呢個就係我哋啱啱聽完 8 你打去消防處之後嗰日發出嘅資訊嘅,我哋見到喺大銀幕上高睇到你提過「用中空 9 板應該好過用發泡膠」,你見到嗎? 10 蘇曉峯先生:係,冇錯。 11 杜淦堃資深大律師:你亦都提到「問下宏業有冇得改?」跟住你話「再唔係問消防用發泡膠 12 得唔得?」跟住有人話「中空板貴好多」,呢度你自己咗嘞,「問咗消防處,佢哋 13 話可以作出投訴,佢哋會搵人過嚟睇睇。」 14 蘇曉峯先生:係。 15 杜淦堃資深大律師:就你呢啲訊息,你作出投訴之後,你知唔知道之後有冇跟進呢? 16 蘇曉峯先生:我記得喺9 月30 號嗰陣時,我最後一次問消防,再打去問消防處嗰邊,佢嘅 17 答覆係「冇相關條例規管呢一樣嘢」。 18 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋都有--消防處都提供咗嗰個錄音嘅。 19 蘇曉峯先生:係。 20 杜淦堃資深大律師:我都想你聽一聽,幫一幫我哋。 21

22 (播放錄音) 23 [女聲:消防處一般查詢投訴熱線,有咩嘢幫到你。 24 蘇曉峯先生:係,早晨,你好,姓蘇㗎。 25 女聲:係。 26 蘇曉峯先生:咁我哋屋苑就做緊呢個大廈嘅外牆嘅大維修。 27 女聲:係。 28 蘇曉峯先生:咁個承建商就攞啲我唔知發泡膠定乜嘢呢嚟封--即係嚟遮住個窗。 29 女聲:係。 30 蘇曉峯先生:即係每一戶都係㗎嘞,遮住個窗。 31 女聲:係。 32 蘇曉峯先生:可能應該係保護個窗,唔好整花個窗咁喇。 33 女聲:係。 34 蘇曉峯先生:咁但係我哋就比較擔心嗰啲物料呢,會唔會係佢比較易--易燃呀。 35 女聲:係。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第五天 24 本謄本由Epiq 編製 蘇曉峯先生:比較容易著火呀。 1 女聲:係。 2 蘇曉峯先生:嗄,係嘞。 3 女聲:你等我一陣先呀。即係--即係其實你哋單位出面嗰個窗? 4 蘇曉峯先生:係呀,每個單位,即係每一隻窗囉可以講,嗄。 5 女聲:哦,你等等先呀。喂,先生。 6 蘇曉峯先生:係。 7 女聲:因為我哋消防處就冇任何即係條例就規定即係你窗可以點樣封住或者唔可以點樣封住 8 嘅。咁或者你可以問下屋宇署佢哋嗰邊有冇啲咩嘢可以幫到你哋呢個層面。 9 蘇曉峯先生:...(聽不清) 10 女聲:係嘞,係嘞,冇錯。 11 蘇曉峯先生:但係嗰啲物料易燃--唔知易唔易燃㗎喎,我哋比較係擔心好似英國嗰個大廈大 12 火咁樣,燒咗成棟一齊咁呀。 13 女聲:唔,唔,唔,唔,明白晒,因為... 14 蘇曉峯先生:係驚--係擔心呢樣嘢啫。 15 女聲:唔,唔,唔,但係因為我哋嘅層面就冇任何--即係因為佢哋做大廈維修嗰啲呢,其實 16 都係跟番屋宇署嗰啲規定去做嘅。 17 蘇曉峯先生:嗄。 18 女聲:係嘞,係嘞,咁你可以問下屋宇署佢哋相關嘅規定或者佢哋可以點樣幫你哋檢查佢嗰 19 啲物料係咪即係合乎佢哋嘅規格囉。 20 蘇曉峯先生:哦,哦, 21 女聲:係嘞,係嘞,係嘞。 22 蘇曉峯先生:咁好吖,唔該你先。 23 女聲:唔,好,唔該你先,蘇生,多謝你電話。 24 蘇曉峯先生:唔該,拜拜。 25 女聲:拜拜。] 26 (錄音播放完畢) 27

28 杜淦堃資深大律師:蘇先生,我想問下有咩嘢驅使你嗰日又打去消防再作出一個投訴? 29 蘇曉峯先生:佢未有一個正式答覆畀我嘛,我咪打多次囉。 30 杜淦堃資深大律師:你當時屋企個窗封咗未? 31 蘇曉峯先生:當時好似--宏志嗰面好似未,但係我爹哋媽咪嗰邊封咗。 32 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔,我想問下你WhatsApp 裏面提到「中空板貼喺窗就好過發泡膠」, 33 你點解會有一呢個概念或者點解你會咁講? 34 蘇曉峯先生:一個建議啫,係呀,我都唔識其實,都係一個建議囉。 35 杜淦堃資深大律師:你有冇同法團反映過呢啲問題? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第五天 25 本謄本由Epiq 編製 蘇曉峯先生:WhatsApp 呢度囉。 1 杜淦堃資深大律師:WhatsApp 呢度 2 蘇曉峯先生:WhatsApp 呢度,嗄。 3 杜淦堃資深大律師:好嘞,打完第二個電話之後,你有冇同其他政府部門跟進過呢? 4 蘇曉峯先生:冇。 5 杜淦堃資深大律師:你及後有冇參加過同大維修有關嘅會議? 6 蘇曉峯先生:你講係維修嗰啲?冇。 7 杜淦堃資深大律師:法團嗰啲,你父母呢,你父母有冇參加,你知唔知? 8 蘇曉峯先生:佢落去開會嗰啲會有囉,即係投票,投票嗰啲我都有。 9 杜淦堃資深大律師:除咗發泡膠同埋你頭先提過棚網嗰啲問題之外,你仲有冇同父母傾過另 10 外一啲同火警有關嘅問題或者再作出過其他嘅投訴? 11 蘇曉峯先生:主要都係--最後期主要都係擔心棚網同發泡膠都係。 12 杜淦堃資深大律師:好嘞,我想去問一問你火警當日嘅情況,你當日係點樣知道有火警同埋 13 係大概幾多點? 14 蘇曉峯先生:喺3 點07 分嘅時候我媽媽打畀我話呢度火燭,佢同爹哋而家落樓。 15 杜淦堃資深大律師:你呢個對話除咗講頭先以上嘅事情,仲有冇其他嘅資料可以話到畀我哋 16 知? 17 蘇曉峯先生:隔咗冇幾耐,我聽到我媽媽講「今次--唉,今次死嘞」,之後我就再聽唔到佢 18 嘅聲嘞。個電話一直都冇斷到,直至四點十左右囉。 19 杜淦堃資深大律師:你一路都同佢保持? 20 蘇曉峯先生:一路都係,但係一路都--叫佢都聽唔到。 21 杜淦堃資深大律師:你一路都同媽媽去溝通嘅? 22 蘇曉峯先生:媽媽,係。 23 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想問你,咁你嗰日有冇打999? 24 蘇曉峯先生:應該好夜先至打,因為我當場直接見到差人就同佢講咗我爹哋媽咪喺27 樓, 25 跟住我同消防都講過。 26 杜淦堃資深大律師:根據你提供嘅紀錄,你再冇機會見到你父母。 27 蘇曉峯先生:冇嘞。 28 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋知道喺聽證會嘅第一日我哋播咗一段999 嘅錄音,係你父母打去求 29 助嘅。 30 蘇曉峯先生:係。 31 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋都討論過,如果你稍候你情緒平復,你想聽番嘅,我哋可以安排。 32 但係今日我哋唔會再播嗰段錄音,你有冇其他嘢想同委員會講? 33 蘇曉峯先生:有嘅。喺聽證會第一日我知道爹哋媽咪佢哋打電話報咗警,之後媽咪打電話畀 34 我話而家落樓,我冇辦法想像佢哋當時幾咁彷徨無助。佢哋已經好叻、好勇敢,與 35 此同時當日嘅聴證會我亦都知道消防員何偉豪先生係接到order 上去救我爹哋媽 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第五天 26 本謄本由Epiq 編製 咪。我聽到呢個消息之後,個心好難過,好唔開心。當所有人逃離火場嘅時候,消 1 防嘅前線就係衝入火場,所謂嘅就係拯救生命,呢啲消防嘅前線喺我心目中絕對係 2 百分百真英雄。我好想多謝佢哋,但係請容許我講一句「對唔住」,請何偉豪先生 3 嘅屋企人好好保重。 4 今次呢場聽證會唔單止係事實嘅追尋,更是一面照出制度漏洞、人性光輝同埋 5 集體創傷嘅一面鏡子,今次嘅災難係系統性失靈嘅必然結果。證據顯示所有保障生 6 命安全嘅設施徹底失效,產生出嚟嘅結果就係168 位人士付出咗沉痛嘅生命代價, 7 以及1984 戶家庭流離失所。 8 之前有人同我講,話我哋貪得無厭,係,我的確承認嘅,我哋貪嘅係一個真 9 相,我哋貪嘅係一個公義,我哋希望還死者一個公道。當知道真相之後,我哋希望 10 能夠改善制度嘅漏洞,冇人想再次發生同類嘅災難,宏福苑只能示範一次,希望所 11 有有關人士引以為戒。 12 四個月前嘅大火奪去咗我父母,奪去咗我嘅家,呢四個月係我人生入面最艱 13 難、最痛苦嘅日子,有幸得到身邊好多朋友、親戚嘅鼓勵同埋安慰,心情可以得到 14 暫時嘅舒暢。我喺呢度亦好衷心咁多謝一啲幫過我哋宏福苑嘅人士,無論係金錢、 15 物資或者心靈上支援我哋嘅朋友。 16 近排聽聽證會或者上樓嘅安排,可能會帶番畀一啲居民嘅一啲衝擊,一啲創傷 17 後遺症有機會陸續浮現出嚟,所以千祈千祈唔好收埋自己,儘快尋求有關嘅支援。 18 身為宏福苑嘅街坊,雖然大家都有唔同嘅困難,但係我哋都係坐同一條船,我希望 19 大家好似之前咁團結,團結先有機會爭取到各自嘅所需嘅一切,亦都希望大家可以 20 好快咁過番正常嘅生活,各位街坊加油。好多謝杜律師,好多謝主席。 21 陸啟康法官:請問各位涉事方有冇人想提問? 22 李峰琦大律師:主席,我有少少問題係想關於啲工程解說會嘅想問一問蘇先生。 23 蘇先生,你好,我代表幾位居民嘅,有啲關於工程解說會嘅問題,想向你了解 24 下個情況嘅。我哋睇到資料顯示,喺2024 年嘅7 月19 號,宏業同鴻毅係喺浸信 25 會嗰度,就住宏志閣係有一個工程嘅解說會嘅,我想了解下當天你有冇出席嗰個解 26 說會? 27 蘇曉峯先生:我有㗎,夜晚嚟㗎嘛嗰個好似,有嘅。 28 李峰琦大律師:我睇番啲通告,嗰晚係咪係有啲爭執,同埋啲唔愉快嘅事情發生,你可唔可 29 以講述下其實嗰晚係發生咩嘢事? 30 蘇曉峯先生:好似係佢哋啲--嗰陣時仲係舊法團,冇記錯,係唔畀我哋啲居民入去。 31 李峰琦大律師:仲有冇可以講多少少個情況? 32 蘇曉峯先生:佢哋攔住個門口話--詳細都唔係好記得太清楚,總之係唔畀我哋--即係其實入 33 邊仲有位嘅我知道,但係佢好似係指定係宏志先入得定唔知係點樣,就唔畀其他人 34 入去。 35 李峰琦大律師:係咪之後仲發生咗個報警嘅事件,有冇認知? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第五天 27 本謄本由Epiq 編製 蘇曉峯先生:呢個有印象。 1 李峰琦大律師:可唔可以再講下你個認知係點樣樣? 2 蘇曉峯先生:警察嚟到,跟住--真係唔係好記得,唔好意思。 3 李峰琦大律師:好,係,好,唔緊要,唔該你,蘇先生,我冇其他問題。 4 陸啟康法官:仲有冇其他問題?冇,咁蘇生,我諗其實聽完你嘅作供,同埋好多宏福苑居民 5 嘅作供,我諗相信喺度--我諗大概咁講,其實我哋好多人都應該為宏福苑嘅居民鼓 6 掌。咁我覺得你哋好勇敢去面對呢件事,即使係即係家人離去,都係好勇敢去面 7 對。咁我哋只可以話節哀順變,我哋一定會去搵出個事實真相,同埋我亦都好相信 8 你頭先講嘅說話,香港所有嘅消防員同埋何偉豪先生嘅家人都會聽得到嘅,好多謝 9 羅(蘇?)先生你今日嚟證供,多謝你。 10

11 12 時29 分宏福苑居民證人蘇曉峯先生作供完畢 12 12 時29 分宏福苑居民證人周志偉先生開始作供 13

14 杜淦堃資深大律師:主席,下一位嚟協助我哋嘅居民係周志偉先生。周先生,麻煩你企起身 15 讀一讀你面前嘅聲明。 16 周志偉先生:本人周志偉聲明,本人喺呢度所講嘅證供,全部係現場憶述我所知嘅嘢,全部 17 屬實,並無虛言。 18 陸啟康法官:請坐,周生。 19 杜淦堃資深大律師:你好,周先生,資料顯示你嘅單位係喺宏昌閣207 號室? 20 周志偉先生:係。 21 杜淦堃資深大律師:你喺火警嘅時候,你同邊位屋企人同住嘅係? 22 周志偉先生:喺火警發生嘅時間,我同我太太都喺現場嘅。 23 杜淦堃資深大律師:好,我哋未講火警當日,我想你講一講火警之前一啲你嘅觀察,或者你 24 擔心嘅地方,因為你單位位置,所以可能你會睇到一啲對於委員會有用嘅事情嘅, 25 麻煩你一一講出嚟。 26 周志偉先生:當時我就喺間屋度,我老婆就去咗沖涼。 27 杜淦堃資深大律師:我係想--唔好意思,打斷你。我係想你講一講喺火警之前,... 28 周志偉先生:係火警之前嘅。 29 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,對於--唔係火警當日,你對呢個維修有啲咩嘢觀察,有啲咩嘢令到 30 你哋擔心?尤其是火警風險嗰個範疇。 31 周志偉先生:維修嗰啲就我哋通常佢就--我哋都唔理㗎喇,佢就咪--就三億三做--我哋都 32 唔理佢,咁佢就初初就同我哋講就分三期嚟大維修嘅,即係我哋嗰座就係F 座,跟 33 住--我哋嗰度宏昌,跟住宏盛、宏志,三座做嘅。咁搭棚,就搭晒棚,嗰三座,做 34 咗個零月,就全部成個屋苑又搭晒棚喎,咁你之前你同我哋講話分三期㗎嘛,咁點 35 解會全部做晒呢?咪搞到咁樣,火燭咪全部火燒連環船,如果三座嚟做,就我相信 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第五天 28 本謄本由Epiq 編製 就唔會燒晒成個屋苑,呢啲係我嘅感覺。 1 但係嗰個法團,個新法團,我哋有投訴佢,我話點解你嗰陣時嗰個大維修嗰個 2 宏業話分三期做㗎嘛,點解你容許佢畀佢一次過搭晒棚?咁佢亦冇咁多人做,我哋 3 之後我哋嗰啲都丟空咗喺度,嗰啲工人就走去做出面嗰幾座,即係做宏仁、宏道、 4 宏新嗰啲,我哋宏昌嗰啲、宏盛嗰啲就擺喺度,咁後期發生呢件咁嘅嘢火燭,一燒 5 咪全部燒晒囉,如果佢唔係全部搭晒棚,我相信就唔會惹到人哋嗰啲嘅。 6 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想問一問你,你個單位嗰度應該係會見到1 樓嗰個光井平台,係咪? 7 周志偉先生:睇就睇唔到,我嗰度睇唔到嘅,但係知道嗰度起火,嗰度有火走上嚟,咁我想 8 講講個現場情況你聽,好唔好? 9 杜淦堃資深大律師:好。 10 周志偉先生:個現場就我當時我就喺屋度,我老婆就見到話「點解個天咁紅嘅」咁,我話 11 「個天咁紅?」我話「冇理由㗎」,咁我--跟住我就喺番個廳度,突然間聽到出面 12 就好嘈,即係啲垃圾同埋好大風咁吹,咁我打開個窗睇,嘩,嗰啲竹棚同埋啲樹枝 13 周圍飛,同埋見到有少少嗰啲火屑喎,咁我之後就閂番個窗,即刻打電話去管理 14 處,管理處就唔係即時聽嘅,等得好耐,我話「有冇搞錯,喂,上面工人係咪做嘢 15 啲嘢係咁擗落嚟?」佢話「唔係擗落嚟呀,係火燭呀」咁,我話「火燭,點解你嗰 16 個警鐘唔響呀?」我就鬧鬼佢,佢又冇出聲,咁之後就收咗線。咁我之後就返番-- 17 跟住我就再睇下個廁所同埋個大房,因為嗰度好似好紅。 18 杜淦堃資深大律師:停一停先,停一停先,你會唔會講到畀我哋知,你大約幾多點打落管理 19 處? 20 周志偉先生:應該嗰陣時係差唔多挨住3 點,應該係兩點十至十一,兩點十至兩點十一喥, 21 大約,就唔敢肯定。 22 杜淦堃資深大律師:好,好,我打斷你先,你想講一講你之後見到嘅情況,你繼續。 23 周志偉先生:之後就我就見到佢咁樣,咁我就走咗入去廁所嗰度睇下個環境同埋個大房,見 24 到嗰啲發泡膠著火喎,睇住佢著火嘅,跟住就燒爆咗我哋啲玻璃,啲火想湧入嚟, 25 即係我第一時間就喺個廁所嗰度,咁我就嘗試用個花灑嗰條喉嚟用水嚟救,但係好 26 犀利啲火,搶得好犀利。跟住到我大房嗰度,因為嗰個廁所同個大房喺隔籬,又係 27 咁樣嘅情形,咁我老婆見到好驚,就攬住我「走呀,走呀」,咁我話「好呀,好 28 呀,走嘞,走嘞,冇得𢺳嘞,冇得𢺳嘞,救唔到呀。」咁我連手機又冇攞,荷包又 29 冇攞,鎖匙又冇,淨係攞咗條毛巾,兩公婆一人掩住個鼻走出去。走出去之後,就 30 嗰條走廊好大煙,好大煙我老婆就好似好驚,又驚又盛。咁我哋走咗去--本應沿住 31 嗰條樓梯落嘅,即係慣習嗰條樓梯落大堂嘅,點知我哋見到嗰面好大煙,同埋好似 32 好多人,我哋就行咗嗰面個樓梯,即係行咗203、204 嗰面個樓梯落。 33 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢個係落後門嘅,係咪? 34 周志偉先生:係,嗰條落後門嘅,但係我哋冇落到,我哋一路嗌,喺條樓--喺條走廊嗌「火 35 燭呀,火燭呀」,拍隔籬嗰啲街坊嗰啲屋,咁畀我哋拍到隔籬嗰啲都冇人--冇回 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第五天 29 本謄本由Epiq 編製 應,咁拍到嗰個203 嗰個後生仔姓李嘅,就開門畀我入去,我兩公婆入去,我話 1 「火燭呀,我哋快啲入嚟先,入嚟」,因為嗰陣時已經好大煙,我都頂唔順嘞,好 2 咳呀,我哋跟住入咗去即刻閂門,咁喺佢入面嗰度逗留咗都有兩三個鐘頭,咁我喺 3 佢嗰度,喺佢間屋望出去就冇呢啲,風平浪靜,冇乜事,因為佢嗰間屋同我嗰間屋 4 係與我嘅--我係7 號單位,佢係3 號單位,咁即係打對角,佢嗰面應該未有咁嚴 5 重。 6 咁之後,咁我話「火燭得好犀利,我哋好大煙,我都唔敢攞嘢,冇嘢,乜都冇 7 攞。」之後佢話「嘩,死喇,咁點呀?」咁佢就越嚟越驚咁樣,都係後生仔嚟嘅。 8 我話「唔使驚喎,大家後生,怕咩嘢呀?」咁,之後佢話--我就話「我哋唔會死喺 9 呢度嘅」,我話「定啲嚟」,因為我平時都有做運動,我話「唔會死喺度㗎」,我 10 話「快啲攞螺絲批嚟,拆晒啲窗花先」,我話「必要時,就擒出去竹棚嗰度落樓 11 梯」,我話「出面出唔到去㗎嘞,好大煙呀」,我話「有可能係著咗火呀,下面嗰 12 度」,我話「喺窗口走」,咁之後就拆完窗就見到有火燭車喺佢嗰度樓下嗰度,即 13 係大約有50 米喥,有火燭車,有幾個嗰啲消防員喺度行行下咁樣。我哋猛拍啲玻 14 璃,拍到手都痛埋,我話「救人,救命,救命」咁樣,佢就睇我哋唔到,褸屘嗰個 15 姓李嗰個戶主又開埋閃光燈照佢哋,等跟住讓畀佢睇到,都係睇唔到,拍到後--褸 16 屘,咁我話「唔好嘞」,我話「如果好似而家我望過斜對面間屋」,即係應該嗰度 17 係6 號單位,就開始有火,我話「死嘞,越嚟越逼埋嚟喎」,我話「唔好嘞,李 18 仔」,我話「我哋戴晒帽,著厚啲嘅衫,着埋鞋,綁緊啲自己,必要時喺樓--喺窗 19 門出去」,我話「嗰啲消防員睇我哋唔到呀」,褸屘後期就我哋--我老婆就嘗試係 20 咁拍啲玻璃,拍得好犀利,拍到褸屘後期好似畀佢睇到,睇到喎,之後點,... 21 杜淦堃資深大律師:「畀佢睇到」即係畀邊個睇到? 22 周志偉先生:睇到我哋有人喺度叫救命呀。 23 杜淦堃資深大律師:畀係消防員睇到,係咪? 24 周志偉先生:睇到我哋,咁嗰個消防員都好醒目,即刻同啲同僚講,係咪?「喂,嗰度叫救 25 命喎」,咁我哋話,我哋就打開個窗,佢都聽到我哋講嘢嘅應該,咁我哋就話「救 26 命,救命,我呢度出唔到去,我哋出面火燭」,咁佢就伸支長臂猿,跟住我哋見到 27 嗰支係有長臂猿嚟嘅,伸支長臂猿埋去我哋嗰個203 個窗口嗰度,我哋逐個爬出 28 去,爬出去,逐個逐個救落嚟,就畀佢啡到成身都濕晒,逐個逐個,只可以--每一 29 次只可以載一個人,三次喇。 30 同埋有一件好感動,啱啱未爬出去之前,我話「李生,你唔好唔出嚟」,我話 31 「你話晒你都係喺嗰度救咗我,我都係喺你嗰度暫避」,我話「你唔好唔出嚟」, 32 咁佢就喺個電話度講咗啲好感人嘅嘢,打畀佢老婆,佢話「老婆,你睇住啲細路 33 呀,我同你道別呀」,諗住要死喺嗰度,我話「唔使驚喎」,我話「我哋最多喺度 34 爬落去咋喎,佢--消防睇我哋唔到我哋咪爬落去囉,我哋嗰度2 樓咋嘛,2 樓咋 35 嘛,嗰度爬落去唔死得嘅」我話。之後消防就搵一啲長臂猿救咗我哋落去地下嗰 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第五天 30 本謄本由Epiq 編製 度,件事就咁樣。 1 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白。呢個係火警當日嗰個... 2 周志偉先生:當日嘅現場,係嘞。 3 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想問番你喺火燭之前,你有喺屋苑度行,途徑一啲位置係望到1 樓天 4 井,係咪? 5 周志偉先生:望唔到嘅。 6 杜淦堃資深大律師:你出面都望唔到,你意思係? 7 周志偉先生:望唔到,淨係可以望到嗰啲街景,即係我哋出面係園景嚟嘅,即係望到吐露港 8 單車徑嘅。 9 杜淦堃資深大律師:我唔係講緊你喺單位裏面,你有出出入入,係咪? 10 周志偉先生:係。 11 杜淦堃資深大律師:你有冇喺個屋苑度行下? 12 周志偉先生:有。 13 杜淦堃資深大律師:你喺屋苑行下嘅時候,你係唔係曾經見過嗰個天井嘅情況? 14 周志偉先生:天井嘅情況就咁樣,通常嗰啲天井嘅情況就係嗰啲工人喺嗰度出出入入嘅,因 15 為我哋大堂嗰度就即係唔畀佢喺嗰度出入,因為佢又攞住啲架生,呢度又繩又嘢, 16 佢就通常就喺嗰條後樓梯嗰度出入嘅,同埋喺個天井嗰度出入。咁又點解呢,我又 17 補充番一句,我哋開嗰個窗出去望呢,佢嗰個工作台,即係佢搭咗棚,就好多垃圾 18 嘅,嗰個垃圾一路環繞住--佢又黐紙皮石,啲紙皮石咪搣咗啲紙皮嘅,咪掉到冚𠾴 19 唥都係,成個竹棚都係,佢就冇清掃嘅,佢就一層推落一層,我哋低層吖嘛,佢喺 20 上面掉落嚟,變咗我哋低層咪好似個垃圾崗咁囉,個天井咪堆晒好似個山仔咁囉, 21 佢一食煙,啲煙頭掉落去,我就唔話佢喇,即係就係起火,就係食煙嘅應該就,一 22 焫著就全部燒,由我哋嗰度低層一路燒上去。 23 杜淦堃資深大律師:你可唔可以話畀委員會知--講清楚少少,你頭先講嘅紙皮石,跟住另外 24 仲係你話有啲紙皮嘅,係咪?嗰啲紙皮係做紙皮石工程嘅時候,你見到一層層跌落 25 嚟嘅,係咪? 26 周志偉先生:嗰啲紙皮石就係佢未鋪上去就𠮨住塊紙皮嘅,即係一呎丁方喥,咁當佢黐咗落 27 埲牆,佢就濕咗水㗎嘛,咁佢要搣番塊紙皮出嚟,搣番出嚟咪好多紙皮,好多嗰啲 28 紙皮石啲紙皮,咪掉到工作台冚𠾴唥都係。同埋佢哋食咗,啲餐具、飯盒、水掉到 29 冚𠾴唥都係,我哋見到佢咁多垃圾嘅,咁後期就火燭。 30 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔該晒你,周先生,我冇其他問題。 31 周志偉先生:好,好,好。 32 杜淦堃資深大律師:主席,我冇其他問題。 33 陸啟康法官:有冇其他涉事方想問問題? 34 周志偉先生:就問我,係咪? 35 杜淦堃資深大律師:你有冇其他嘢想同委員會講或者? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第五天 31 本謄本由Epiq 編製 周志偉先生:就咁樣,我就覺得呢個大維修導致今次火燭,即係個問題癥結都有幾樣嘢,一 1 來嗰個管理處嗰個火警鐘唔響,完全唔響,我亦聽唔到有火燭車聲,聽唔到嘅,即 2 係我係實話實講,聽唔到。但係唔知係咪我位置嘅問題,我嗰個單位望落去就冇火 3 燭車嘅,有可能嗰啲火燭車埋唔到去,就喺嗰個姓李嗰個單位就望到。咁佢個消防 4 鐘唔響呢,就對於我哋嚟逃生係好大問題嘅,我哋個個都唔知道,有啲仲瞓緊覺。 5 好似我隔籬單位嗰個靚女,咁佢做保安嘅,都喺嗰度燒死咗。我隔籬印傭同埋嗰個 6 阿婆行動不便都--我嗰層都燒死咗四個人咁樣。 7 即係令我最大感慨就係呢個立案法團,即係點解啲市民成日都投訴話即係啲人 8 喺度食煙喎,佢又置之不理;佢用發泡膠喎,佢又唔理;仲有你分三期做大維修, 9 點解一次過搭晒棚,佢又唔理。呢個姓徐嘅,我唔好講佢個名,佢姓徐嘅,佢未選 10 嗰陣時,即係個舊法團喺度,話要推走佢哋,咁佢喺公園仔嗰度就舉手舉腳,又點 11 樣着埋制服。當佢選咗之後佢即係變咗第二個人,兩面人,即係唔知係唔係受到有 12 好處呢啲,我估啫。咁就完全當啲市民講嗰啲嘢完全都冇表態、冇反映、冇做嘢, 13 直情唔睬我哋,咁導致今次火燭佢都有好大責任嘅,同埋呢個管理處都好大責任, 14 唔使講嗰個承建商都好多問題,咪係呀?就係咁,我所講嘅嘢就咁多。 15 陸啟康法官:有冇其他任何人想提問?如果冇,就好多謝周生你今日出席畀證供,唔該晒 16 你。 17 周志偉先生:好,好,多謝你哋。 18

19 12 時47 分宏福苑居民證人周志偉先生作供完畢 20 12 時48 分宏福苑居民證人黃盛勤先生開始作供 21

22 杜淦堃資深大律師:主席,下一位證人係黃盛勤先生。 23 陸啟康法官:唔該。 24 杜淦堃資深大律師:黃先生,你好。 25 黃盛勤先生:係,你好。 26 杜淦堃資深大律師:麻煩你讀出你前面嘅聲明。 27 黃盛勤先生:好,好。本人黃盛勤聲明,本人所作的證供盡本人所知、所悉及所信,均屬真 28 實。 29 杜淦堃資深大律師:黃先生,你好。 30 黃盛勤先生:你好。 31 杜淦堃資深大律師:請坐。資料顯示你係宏建閣2108 號嘅居民? 32 黃盛勤先生:係,冇錯。 33 杜淦堃資深大律師:你幾時搬入宏福苑? 34 黃盛勤先生:應該差唔多98 年左右,係。 35 杜淦堃資深大律師:我嘅理解係喺大廈大維修工程期間,其實你都有啲擔心嘅地方,亦都作 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第五天 32 本謄本由Epiq 編製 出咗過一啲投訴嘅,你可唔可以用呢個機會話畀委員會聽? 1 黃盛勤先生:係咁嘅,即係我個太太就佢曾經喺2024 年嘅年尾,就喺我哋嗰個廳個窗嘅出 2 面見到個煙頭嘅,咁佢影咗張相同嗰個管理處嗰度反映,但係管理處嗰度就話會跟 3 進,但係之後都好似冇乜下文,主要係呢件嘢,其他其實就冇乜。 4 杜淦堃資深大律師:你都有--如果你記得嘅話,你都有提過後喺樓梯嗰啲窗換咗嘅問題,你 5 可唔可以講一講?個生口嗰個問題。 6 黃盛勤先生:生口嘅問題,嗰個窗嗰度就好似換咗啲木板係釘咗即係原本喺窗嘅位置,其實 7 當時我都唔係太為意嘅,因為我哋諗住佢哋可能係即係需要喺嗰度做一啲工程,可 8 能臨時嗰啲木板遮住嗰個窗位,所以嗰樣嘢我冇咩嘢行動。 9 杜淦堃資深大律師:講番火警當日,你係點樣首先發現有火警? 10 黃盛勤先生:當日初初就聽到樓下啲乒鈴嘭唥嗰啲聲,我初初以為係樓下收嗰啲舊家私喺度 11 搬嘢嗰啲聲,乒鈴嘭唥。跟住過咗一陣間,我就聞到好似膠燒著嗰啲味,跟住我就 12 試下開個窗去睇,但係都睇唔到啲乜嘢,因為啲網遮住咗。跟住但係個味道就好似 13 都幾大嘅,咁我打電話,根據個電話紀錄就3 點14 分,11 月26 號打咗兩個電話 14 畀管理處,但係都係打唔通,當時兩個電話都打唔通。跟住冇幾耐,應該一兩分鐘 15 之後,我隔籬嗰個王(譯音)太,就2107 單位嗰個王太佢就拍我個門,佢同我講 16 話佢嗰個廚房出面有火苗,跟住我當時好驚,做乜有火苗咁大件事,我就推開個門 17 就出去,同王太去佢嗰個廚房嗰度睇下咩嘢事,見到出面真係有啲火喺嗰個網度燒 18 下燒下,嗰個size 我都提過,就係差唔多即係10cm 乘10cm 約莫咁大,有幾處 19 嘅。 20 跟住我同王太拿拿聲去嗰個消防喉嘅位置,即係我哋嗰層樓嗰個走廊嗰個消防 21 喉嘅位置拉嗰條條消防喉,跟住打開消防喉個頭嗰個掣,冇水,跟住就又去嗰個消 22 防喉嗰度睇下,即係拉消防喉出嚟嗰個箱嗰度睇睇有啲咩嘢可以開關諸有此類嘅 23 嘢,跟住發覺嗰度真係有個水龍頭,扭咗之後都係冇水,跟住我哋就去咗廚房,有 24 個水喉,咁就𢳂啲水倒出去,但係都冇乜作用。後屘王太喺出面就搵咗即係嗰個滅 25 火筒返嚟,滅火筒本身佢本身有個釘嘅,其實我都唔係好識用,但係好彩王太佢識 26 得將個釘唔知點樣擝開咗跟住我哋就將個滅火筒對住嗰啲火係咁噴噴噴噴噴,就差 27 唔多全部都噴熄咗,但係就遠處嗰啲應該係2106 號單位嗰邊都係有啲火苗,嗰邊 28 嗰啲我哋就救唔到,同埋嗰個滅火筒入面嗰啲液體都噴晒出嚟,冇嘢可以噴到出 29 嚟,大致係咁。 30 杜淦堃資深大律師:噴唔到嘞,你用晒嘞... 31 黃盛勤先生:冇晒即係嗰啲嘢嘞。 32 杜淦堃資深大律師:...之後你點做? 33 黃盛勤先生:之後我哋搵啲水--𢳂啲水去--睇下可唔可以用啲水即係整到呢個火嗰邊,睇下 34 可唔可以即係滅咗啲火佢。 35 杜淦堃資深大律師:跟住呢? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第五天 33 本謄本由Epiq 編製 黃盛勤先生:跟住王太佢就搵咗--喺佢嗰個廁所嗰度搵咗花灑出嚟,跟住駁落去嗰個廚房嗰 1 個水龍頭,跟住唔夠力噴唔到,跟住王太佢屋企人就打電話畀佢,佢講完個電話之 2 後,佢就同我講,佢話佢屋企人叫佢拿拿聲走。 3 杜淦堃資深大律師:你係唔係同佢一齊走跟住? 4 黃盛勤先生:我哋各自返屋企執嘢,即係諗住如果係火燭,萬一如果係著起上嚟,即係睇下 5 屋企有冇輕擎嗰啲同埋貴重嗰啲拿拿聲拎走。 6 杜淦堃資深大律師:你係點走㗎? 7 黃盛勤先生:我係經後樓梯行落去。我走之前我有撳王太即係隔籬佢個鐘,因為當時我以為 8 佢喺屋企執嘢,點知佢冇反應,所以我就知道佢可能已經係自己行咗落去,跟住我 9 就沿住我哋嗰個電梯大堂嗰個走廊就行,即係一路行經隔籬嗰啲,就撳嗰啲鐘,冇 10 人反應,跟住我就行咗落去,即係沿住個樓梯一路行落去。 11 杜淦堃資深大律師:你沿住樓梯喺宏建樓行落去,有冇煙樓梯? 12 黃盛勤先生:樓梯冇煙嘅,當時冇煙嘅,同埋都睇到樓梯級嘅,我就冇留意係燈光定係乜 13 嘢,但係就係我行落去都好順利嘅,冇煙嘅。但係我當時有戴個口罩,我落到大堂 14 嗰陣時--唔係,我出咗去火場之後,攞個口罩出嚟,發覺個口罩黑𠵼𠵼嘅。 15 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想問下你,你講唔講到畀我哋聽你係幾時開始逃走嘅,離開你個單 16 位? 17 黃盛勤先生:個時間我就係跟番嗰個電話紀錄嗰度,就係我當時執嘢嗰陣時就約莫3 點43 18 分,前前後後嗰五分至十分鐘,跟住因為嗰陣時我個仔有打過電話畀我嘅,佢叫我 19 儘快走。我就4 點20 分就出咗火場,就走嘅時間我估計應該係4 點10 分鐘左 20 右,離開我屋企21 樓,離開宏建閣21 樓。4 點20 分嗰陣時我就行到去隔籬嗰個 21 廣福邨商場嗰邊,我就打咗個電話同我個仔報平安。 22 杜淦堃資深大律師:多謝你。 23 黃盛勤先生:係。 24 杜淦堃資深大律師:你有冇其他嘢同委員會講?用呢個機會。 25 黃盛勤先生:其他居民都差唔多講晒嗰啲嘢,我想講佢哋講晒。 26 杜淦堃資深大律師:多謝你。主席。 27 陸啟康法官:請問其他涉事方有冇其他提問?如果冇嘅,黃生。 28 黃盛勤先生:係。 29 陸啟康法官:非常多謝你今日能夠出席,你嘅證供對我哋調查非常之有用。 30 杜淦堃資深大律師:法官閣下,我諗我哋可以晏晝繼續。 31 陸啟康法官:我哋押後到下晝2 點15 分。 32

33 12 時29 分宏福苑居民證人周志偉先生作供完畢 34

35 12 時59 分聆訊押後 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第五天 34 本謄本由Epiq 編製 14 時15 分聆訊恢復 1

2 陸啟康法官:係,杜律師。 3 杜淦堃資深大律師:主席,今日最後一位嚟協助我哋嘅居民係王惠琛。 4

5 14 時16 分宏福苑居民證人王惠琛先生開始作供 6

7 杜淦堃資深大律師:王先生,你好。 8 王惠琛先生:係。 9 杜淦堃資深大律師:王先生,你面前有一份聲明,麻煩你企起身讀出嚟。 10 王惠琛先生:本人王惠琛聲明,本人所作的證供,盡本人所知、所悉及所信,均屬真實。 11 杜淦堃資深大律師:麻煩你。 12 陸啟康法官:請坐,王生。 13 杜淦堃資深大律師:王先生,資料顯示你係住喺宏建閣樓1807 室,係咪? 14 王惠琛先生:係。 15 杜淦堃資深大律師:你有咩屋企人係同住㗎? 16 王惠琛先生:我太太同我。 17 杜淦堃資深大律師:火警發生當日,你係首先點樣發現有火警嘅呢? 18 王惠琛先生:嗰日大概3 點鐘到,我太太就話聽到好多嘈雜聲,「霹靂拍嘞」聲,咁我仲同 19 佢講話「係咪嗰啲建築公司倒嗰啲廢料,成日都倒嗰啲廢料,霹靂拍嘞聲㗎咁」, 20 佢話「唔係喎,有𤓓味喎咁,同埋好多警車啲火燭車嗰啲聲,就停咗我哋樓下」, 21 我就喺個廳度開窗望出去睇下咩嘢事,咁就睇到對面宏盛閣大概10 樓至12 樓度有 22 啲火,就係--跟住我再望去宏昌嗰邊好多煙,同埋嗰啲棚網嗰啲火屑就全部飛去宏 23 昌嗰邊--飛去宏盛嗰邊10 至12 樓。咁我太太就喺房望向宏泰--宏昌嗰邊,個窗 24 度開窗一睇佢話嗰度,佢話「哎吔,嗰度燒--火燭燒呀」咁,嗰啲火就已經燒到差 25 唔多成10 樓至12 樓之間。咁我同太太講話「好危險,啲火屎周圍飛」。跟住就閂 26 窗,閂好晒啲窗,跟住同太太講「你唔好喺度--留低喺度,你不如,你落街睇喇」 27 咁樣。咁跟住我哋落街。 28 杜淦堃資深大律師:你同佢一齊落,係咪呀? 29 王惠琛先生:兩個一齊落,即刻出去搭𨋢,搭𨋢落,落去大概三點兩個字喥,行到出門口, 30 就見啲消防員已經喺宏建閣對出嗰個消防栓嗰度準備開喉救嘅,佢第一次--我見啲 31 消防員擰嗰個掣開係冇水出嘅。我同我太太一路行,一路行就行到去公園中間喥就 32 擰番轉頭就望下,就影咗幾幅相,影咗啲(English Spoken)。咁啲火就一路 33 已經燒,宏昌嗰度,第一次影相嘅時間都仲係16、17 樓喥嘅啫,跟住多一兩分鐘 34 啲火已經燒到好犀利,燒到上頂。咁我就一路行,行到去出面巴士站嗰度望番轉 35 頭,一路一路睇,到三點四個字喥,好似係啲風向又變,啲風由宏昌嗰邊吹去宏 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第五天 35 本謄本由Epiq 編製 泰,咁就有啲火,即係棚網嗰啲碎連埋啲火就已經焫著咗宏泰高層嘅地方,有啲已 1 經吹咗去宏建,咁我話「死嘞,又燒埋我哋嗰層嘞」咁講。咁亦都最始見到即係消 2 防喉開到就水射到,射到喺宏建大約我住嗰層,咁上下喥嘅位置嘅最多,即係只係 3 射到嗰個位置,咁我就個心好似定啲咁,因為我以為即係已經消防喉開始救嘞已 4 經,因為嗰段時間啲水--個水泵車喺宏福--即係宏--廣福邨巴士站隔籬嗰度嗰個 5 水龍頭嗰度駁水,一路駁到入去開到水射,咁我睇到三點半,我就下晝要去覆診。 6 杜淦堃資深大律師:你提到你聽到消防車嘅聲? 7 王惠琛先生:係,係。 8 杜淦堃資深大律師:你有冇聽過火警鐘嘅聲?喺你嗰棟。 9 王惠琛先生:冇。 10 杜淦堃資深大律師:你可唔可以講到畀我哋聽,你落樓嘅時間大概係幾多點? 11 王惠琛先生:三點一個幾字喥,唔,唔。 12 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔。你走嘅時候有冇--你棟大廈裏面你有冇聞到--再聞到有煙味或者睇 13 到有煙? 14 王惠琛先生:冇。 15 杜淦堃資深大律師:落到到電梯大堂嗰個情況,我哋回一回帶,返去較早前嘅情況,係咪好 16 多人走緊,亂唔亂呢嗰陣? 17 王惠琛先生:聽唔到。 18 杜淦堃資深大律師:係咪好多人走緊呢你去--你走嘅時候,亂唔亂呢? 19 王惠琛先生:係,已經有好多人離開座大廈,嗰個看更都開晒個大閘等啲人即係唔使撳掣即 20 刻可以出去,亦都有消防員入嚟我哋嗰座好似。 21 杜淦堃資深大律師:好嘞,我想講一講番火警之前,大維修期間。 22 王惠琛先生:係。 23 杜淦堃資深大律師:喺大維修期間,你有冇啲咩嘢嘅觀察令到你擔心火警安全嘅問題呢? 24 王惠琛先生:之後係--之後我有個(English Spoken)囉,就係我有好多次都有參加嗰 25 啲解說會。 26 杜淦堃資深大律師:火警之前呢? 27 王惠琛先生:火警之前,火警之前。 28 杜淦堃資深大律師:係。 29 王惠琛先生:咁佢有一次解說會就話,即係第一個就講話分三期進行大維修,咁先做一座, 30 睇下個情況點樣,跟住再做其他,做完之後先再做埋咁樣。我心諗咪要做成兩年囉 31 咁樣,以我咁計條數,呢個第一點。第二點就佢話要封窗,因為要保護啲窗,即係 32 驚鑿磚仔嘅時間會撞爛啲窗或者整花啲窗,咁封窗嘅時間會用一啲叫鋁塑板,我話 33 鋁塑板係咩嘢嚟(口架)?當時宏業就有個人畀塊板,灰色嘅鋁塑板嘅嘢,咁我話 34 「咩嘢係鋁塑板嚟㗎?」咁當時嗰個--宏業有個人就畀番一板係嗰啲灰色嘅一個 35 板,鋁塑板,就話會用呢啲愛嚟做護個窗㗎咁。但係一到封窗嘅時間就全部變晒發 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第五天 36 本謄本由Epiq 編製 泡膠,咁呢個我已經有個擔心。咁但係即係--跟住屋苑裏面已經好多人已經討論呢 1 樣嘢,所以我冇參與討論,呢個就已經係之後嘅嘢嚟㗎嘞已經。 2 杜淦堃資深大律師:棚網嘅問題你哋當時有冇討論過或者有冇作出過投訴呢? 3 王惠琛先生:都冇。 4 杜淦堃資深大律師:你有冇留意到啲棚網有冇咩嘢特別嘅地方,你想講畀委員會聽? 5 王惠琛先生:棚網係經過兩次,十號風球打風爛咗棚網補棚網之後,我就已經有發覺嗰啲棚 6 網有啲補番嚟嗰啲係顏色唔同,同埋佢補呢就好技巧地喺中間補嘅,即係唔係由頂 7 到底嘅,係中間咁一段補到去5、6 樓就停嘞,一段一段咁樣補,就唔係由頂到底 8 嘅咁樣。 9 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔。我冇其他問題,多謝你,王先生。 10 王惠琛先生:係。 11 陸啟康法官:有冇其他人,涉事方想提問?如果冇嘅,王先生,好多謝你今日嚟畀證供,多 12 謝你。 13 王惠琛先生:其實即係我--即係呢件事仲有一個--即係仲有幾個問題囉,即係我心裏面成日 14 覺得。第一個就係個顧問公司個問題,第二個就係嗰個授權票嘅問題。由對上兩 15 屆,即係鄧國權最後做嗰屆選立案法團嘅時間,有幾個委員嗰啲票係一模一樣嘅, 16 即係我哋--即係選票唔係計戶數口架嘛,係計單位幾多㗎,即係一個unit 係十 17 四,一啲十六咁樣,有三個委員係一模一樣嘅,五千幾嘅,全部即係已經配咗票。 18 咁再到顧問公司,即係我有疑問就係話請鴻毅做顧問公司,即係$22 萬--做一個顧 19 問公司,一萬幾千鈫做一個顧問公司,即係咁平㗎咁樣,做到啲乜嘢呢咁樣。到由 20 鋁塑板到八座一齊維修,呢個咁嘅排列,顧問公司就--第一就講話「咁樣咪減--縮 21 短咗個施工期,咁你哋唔使焗住焗咁耐囉」咁樣。即係個顧問公司全部即係只係會 22 偏向嗰個建築公司嗰方面。 23 你話圍標個問題,上個禮拜先話畀人告嗰個,其中一間偉豪(譯音)--其實喺 24 宏福苑裏面而家居民揀最高票就係宏業,第二高票就是偉豪。即係其實圍標一個問 25 題,第二就係配票,即係攞晒啲授權票,然後啲咩嘢配票。即係點樣都會圍標嗰 26 啲,同埋鴻毅(English Spoken)嗰個合約,咁佢會唔會可以隱藏咗一啲屋苑 27 暗嘅問題,留番中標嗰間公司,之後就話發現呢個問題,發現嗰個問題,就可以加 28 呢樣、加嗰樣,就攞埋即係嗰個維修裏面有5%(English Spoken)儲備嘅。可 29 以攞埋嗰個,好似話鏟嗰啲牆嘅時間,發覺嗰啲橫眉裏面有啲崩,即係想掘埋嗰嚿 30 錢,即係個顧問公司嗰個角色其實喺個大維修裏面,點樣去監察住呢樣嘢囉。即係 31 嗰個會唔會係一個中間人,佢攞咗-- 即係佢係攞到晒呢一啲內幕嘅資料去 32 (English Spoken)一張(English Spoken)然後點去派--配票,即係呢 33 個我一路都係有(English Spoken)呢樣嘢,去問,咁其實都冇途徑去問。即 34 係我一路都係講,(English Spoken)呢樣,但係冇--冇任何途徑去發表。係 35 咁多。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第五天 37 本謄本由Epiq 編製 陸啟康法官:有冇其他嘢,其他涉事方冇提問?冇嘅話,王先生好多謝你。 1 王惠琛先生:多謝。 2 陸啟康法官:你嘅證供會對我哋嘅調查好有幫助嘅。 3 王惠琛先生:Okay,唔該晒。 4 陸啟康法官:唔該。 5

6 14 時29 分宏福苑居民證人王惠琛先生作供完畢 7

8 杜淦堃資深大律師:主席,我哋... 9 陸啟康法官:係,杜律師。 10 杜淦堃資深大律師:主席,今日晏晝我哋安排咗三位Victory Fire 宏泰嘅僱員嚟作供 11 嘅,呢三位證人會係李大律師去處理。 12 李澍桓大律師:主席,下一位證人係黃健華先生。係,黃先生,喺你面前應該有一張聲明詞 13 嘅。 14 黃健華先生:見到。 15 李澍桓大律師:麻煩你企起身讀出聲明。 16

17 14 時30 分宏泰消防工程有限公司電工證人黃健華先生開始作供 18

19 黃健華先生:本人黃健華聲明,本人所作的證供,盡本人所知、所悉及所信,均屬真實。 20 李澍桓大律師:好,請坐。黃先生,我哋知道你係一間叫做宏泰消防工程嘅一個雇員,係 21 咪? 22 黃健華先生:係。 23 李澍桓大律師:你嘅職位其實就係一個電工。 24 黃健華先生:係。 25 李澍桓大律師:咁而呢間公司呢,我哋知道應該直接啲講老闆就應該係一位叫鍾傑文先生, 26 係咪? 27 黃健華先生:係,係。 28 李澍桓大律師:就住宏福苑大火嘅今次呢個事件呢,我哋知道你係第一,首先係向警方曾經 29 作出過一份口供嘅,係咪? 30 黃健華先生:係。 31 李澍桓大律師:另外,你亦都因應今次呢個聽證會向獨立委員會就提供過一份書面嘅供詞, 32 係咪? 33 黃健華先生:係。 34 李澍桓大律師:我相信呢兩份口供,即係畀警方嘅又好,畀獨立委員會嘅又好,你都可以確 35 認入面講嘅嘢係以你所知係準確真實,係咪? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第五天 38 本謄本由Epiq 編製 黃健華先生:係。 1 李澍桓大律師:先認識多你同埋公司多少少先。 2 黃健華先生:好呀。 3 李澍桓大律師:等我哋知道宏泰消防嗰個角色,剛才所講你就係電工,就應該係2010 年加 4 入宏泰消防。 5 黃健華先生:大約,係嘞。 6 李澍桓大律師:你應該同樣地做電嘅呢,其實仲有一位可能年資冇你咁長嘅同事,就叫做李 7 俊賢先生,係咪? 8 黃健華先生:李俊賢,係。 9 李澍桓大律師:李俊賢,佢都係做電工。可唔可以咁講,你就係李先生嘅主管? 10 黃健華先生:可以嘅。 11 李澍桓大律師:正如我剛才所講話鍾先生就係宏泰消防嘅老闆。 12 黃健華先生:僱主,係嘞。 13 李澍桓大律師:主要日常嗰個工作嘅安排係咪都係鍾先生畀指示你,然之後你再做進一步嘅 14 安排? 15 黃健華先生:唔可以話係全部。 16 李澍桓大律師:係。 17 黃健華先生:係嘞,有時鍾生會同公司個小姐會可能要約啲客戶嘅時間,嗰啲我未必知嘅。 18 李澍桓大律師:係。 19 黃健華先生:我諗係大約知道最近幾日,或者--唔係,未來幾日或者下個禮拜嘅工作,我就 20 會自己去諗一諗,睇下點樣安排咁樣。 21 李澍桓大律師:係咪應該你講「公司嗰位小姐」係咪一位張... 22 黃健華先生:嘉敏。 23 李澍桓大律師:張嘉敏小姐,係咪呀? 24 黃健華先生:張小姐,係嘞。 25 李澍桓大律師:我哋知道宏泰消防就住宏福苑嗰個工作方面呢,佢應該係2016 年開始,就 26 有參與宏福苑消防裝備嘅年檢工作嘅。 27 黃健華先生:實際年份我唔係好記得,我諗大約都有十年八年呢個時間。 28 李澍桓大律師:一定唔係2025 年先開始喇,係咪呀? 29 黃健華先生:係,係。 30 李澍桓大律師:因為根據鍾先生畀我哋資料,就應該喺2016 年開始,就除咗2024 年嗰一 31 年之外呢,去到2025 年都係由宏泰消防負責去做年檢嘅? 32 黃健華先生:應該係。 33 李澍桓大律師:你可唔可以都確認,即係其實你就唔係2025 年先至第一次接觸宏福苑嗰個 34 工程? 35 黃健華先生:可以,可以確認。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第五天 39 本謄本由Epiq 編製 李澍桓大律師:即係你之前都一路有參與嗰個年檢嘅工作,係咪? 1 黃健華先生:有,有。 2 李澍桓大律師:所以可唔可以咁理解?你其實對於宏福苑嗰個消防嘅設備呢,其實你都有一 3 定嘅認識嘅,係咪? 4 黃健華先生:可以。 5 李澍桓大律師:唔,我就只係識啲皮毛嘅啫,所以我睇下我嘅理解,你話番畀我知,我嘅理 6 解啱唔啱嘞。 7 黃健華先生:Okay。 8 李澍桓大律師:喺一個--譬如以宏福苑住宅樓宇為例呢,其實有兩套嘅所謂消防裝備嘅,一 9 套就似乎個講法就應該係咪叫做主動式嘅一個消防裝備,即係例如喉轆、警鐘呢啲 10 咁樣嘅裝備,係咪呀? 11 黃健華先生:係。 12 李澍桓大律師:另一個就當然係我哋所理解,應該就叫做被動式,即係話可能係啲防火門、 13 樓梯要幾闊、後樓梯要幾闊,呢啲就係屬於一啲建築結構上面要處理嘅,係咪呀? 14 黃健華先生:係。 15 李澍桓大律師:所以喺宏泰消防去做年檢嘅工作呢,主要就係... 16 黃健華先生:主動式。 17 李澍桓大律師:...主動式嗰啲警鐘、喉轆呀嗰啲咁嘅情況嘅,係咪? 18 黃健華先生:係。 19 李澍桓大律師:因為正如我所講,我哋知嘅,起碼我本人就好皮毛嘅啫,所以我想就住呢個 20 主動式嘅呢啲消防裝備,透過黃生你幫一幫我哋去了解每一個地方嘅嗰啲作用,好 21 唔好呀? 22 黃健華先生:可以。 23 李澍桓大律師:我一陣間會同埋畀啲相你睇嘅。不過,我想先確認就係當你去做年檢嘅時 24 候,係咪你都有個習慣就係如果發覺邊度有問題,需要可能係報告要更換嘅呢,你 25 都會影低張相嘅,係咪? 26 黃健華先生:正常係嘅。 27 李澍桓大律師:所以2025 年我哋知道宏泰消防就喺3 月24 到26 號呢幾日入面做咗--替宏 28 福苑八座大廈入面做咗個消防裝備嘅年檢,係咪? 29 黃健華先生:係。 30 李澍桓大律師:期間你亦都有影咗一啲相,做咗一啲報告就話邊啲設備需要更換,係咪? 31 黃健華先生:係。 32 李澍桓大律師:嗰個消防裝備,我想由天台開始講起,好唔好呀? 33 黃健華先生:可以。 34 李澍桓大律師:天台,我哋知道就應該有一個叫做消防水缸嘅,係咪? 35 黃健華先生:係。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第五天 40 本謄本由Epiq 編製 李澍桓大律師:呢個消防水缸顧名思義就係愛嚟儲水嘅。 1 黃健華先生:係。 2 李澍桓大律師:你記唔記得呢個消防水缸,以我喺現場去過睇過呢,你31 樓再上一層就係 3 個天台,係咪? 4 黃健華先生:天面。 5 李澍桓大律師:佢哋叫天面。但係個水缸就唔係直接喺個天面上面嘅,因為佢仲有另一個建 6 構物呢,就要上幾條樓梯,先至去到個水缸嘅。 7 黃健華先生:係,上幾層樓梯再要擒條貓梯先到個水缸面。 8 李澍桓大律師:係。 9 黃健華先生:係嘞。 10 李澍桓大律師:我想問呢個水缸係純粹消防水缸,即係咁樣架高咗吖,定還是我哋知道有-- 11 應該仲有食水缸、鹹水缸㗎係咪上面? 12 黃健華先生:現場係有嘅,但係食水缸同鹹水缸我就冇細心去留意,我知道係有嘅。 13 李澍桓大律師:係。所以我個理解就係其實嗰個--即係天面嗰個消防水缸呢,就唔係直接貼 14 住31 樓嗰個天花板嘅? 15 黃健華先生:係。 16 李澍桓大律師:呢個我未有相畀你睇嘅,不過跟住落嚟,由天台落去樓層,就開始有啲相片 17 我想你幫一幫手確認一下。 18 黃健華先生:可以。 19 李澍桓大律師:我先講樓層嘅走廊,如果我用宏志閣為例,即係H 座。 20 黃健華先生:唔。 21 李澍桓大律師:首先或者我哋睇一睇嗰個文件冊R1/第238 頁,喺你面前嗰個螢光幕都應該 22 會睇到。 23 黃健華先生:Okay,好。 24 李澍桓大律師:首先,第一個所謂消防設備就係火警鐘,係咪呀? 25 黃健華先生:係。 26 李澍桓大律師:火警鐘,如果我哋跟住睇237 頁。 27 黃健華先生:237 頁。 28 李澍桓大律師:我哋會轉㗎嘞。 29 黃健華先生:Okay。 30 李澍桓大律師:237 頁我哋見到底下嗰兩張相,我哋就見到所謂有一個叫做「扲手」,係咪 31 呀? 32 黃健華先生:係。 33 李澍桓大律師:呢個其實就係如果喺火警嘅時候呢,你就係去將佢撳著佢,就觸發嗰個火警 34 警報,係咪咁樣? 35 黃健華先生:係,打爛塊玻璃佢就正常就會響。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第五天 41 本謄本由Epiq 編製 李澍桓大律師:我哋見到其實有兩種,左手邊嗰種24 樓嗰個呢,就應該係塊玻璃嘅,係咪 1 呀? 2 黃健華先生:唔,唔。 3 李澍桓大律師:就要敲爛塊玻璃先至觸及到嗰個掣,係咪呀? 4 黃健華先生:係。 5 李澍桓大律師:另外,右手邊30 樓嗰個呢,就應該係就咁樣係冇玻璃,就咁樣撳掣嘅? 6 黃健華先生:都有玻璃嘅,有玻璃㗎,都有玻璃。 7 李澍桓大律師:都有玻璃嘅? 8 黃健華先生:係嘞。 9 李澍桓大律師:其實嗰塊玻璃係咩嘢作用㗎? 10 黃健華先生:嗰個玻璃其實佢就係我哋叫做頂住一個叫(English Spoken )掣,一個 11 掣,係,當塊玻璃爛,個掣彈咗出嚟,咁就會令到個消防泵行,同埋個警鐘會響。 12 李澍桓大律師:即係話其實你唔需要另外再撳掣,只要塊玻璃一爛咗,個掣一彈出嚟,即係 13 嗰個控制嘅方式就唔係話撳個掣落去,係等個掣彈出嚟,係咪咁? 14 黃健華先生:可以咁講,因為個--兩個扲手嗰個方法會有少少唔同,但大致上個原理就係咁 15 樣。 16 李澍桓大律師:呢個警鐘同埋個--即係火警鐘同埋個扲手,我哋都知道都喺走廊嘅嗰個... 17 黃健華先生:喉轆位附近,係。 18 李澍桓大律師:跟住再睇如果第234 頁,234 我哋就見到右下角嗰個2 樓嗰度,我哋見到 19 有部分就係呢個喉轆,係咪? 20 黃健華先生:係。 21 李澍桓大律師:咁如果喉轆,我哋睇235 頁,另外仲有包含住有啲唔同嘅部分嘅。如果我哋 22 睇235 頁,呢個影入去就係喉轆嘅部分,我哋右手邊,基本上呢度四張相都係講 23 緊,右手邊就比較清晰,就係有一個叫做閘掣,呢個其實就係即係或者俗話所講嘅 24 「蓮花掣」,係咪? 25 黃健華先生:我諗我叫--我比較會稱--常叫就叫閘掣。 26 李澍桓大律師:呢個就基本上長期應該開住泵水嘅? 27 黃健華先生:長期關嘅。 28 李澍桓大律師:長期關嘅。如果當有火警要用呢個喉轆嘅時候,咁我哋知道就如果睇237 29 頁,右上角就有一個叫做射嘴,呢個就黐住嗰個喉轆嗰條喉嘅。 30 黃健華先生:係。 31 李澍桓大律師:咁究竟應該係我就咁樣開呢個喉轆,係咪呢個噴嘴會有一個掣畀我開,就會 32 射水出嚟?定要開個閘掣? 33 黃健華先生:要先開閘掣,跟住--咁開個閘掣,咁呢個喉轆條膠喉就會沖咗水入去,正常個 34 泵行嘅情況下就會加壓,咁先會有水壓入咗個喉轆,跟住就將條喉轆拉到去個火場 35 附近,或者你想去救個火嗰個位置,跟住先開個射嘴,咁啲水就會噴出嚟。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第五天 42 本謄本由Epiq 編製 李澍桓大律師:係,所以個閘掣就平時應該係停咗個供水嘅? 1 黃健華先生:係,長閂嘅。 2 李澍桓大律師:有火警嘅時候,就使用嘅話就要自己手動去開? 3 黃健華先生:要自己手動開,係。 4 李澍桓大律師:同樣地,喉轆嘅呢一組設備,都係喺走廊,應該就喺個水錶房或者有個水錶 5 箱上面嘅? 6 黃健華先生:係。 7 李澍桓大律師:呢個就講緊走廊,跟住我想睇一睇後樓梯,就睇可能--我哋要睇宏道閣第 8 200 頁有一張相,第200 頁我哋左上角就見到有個17 樓嗰個,其實係影緊部分一 9 個叫做消防栓,係咪? 10 黃健華先生:係。 11 李澍桓大律師:呢個就其實係每一層嘅後樓梯都有嘅,係咪? 12 黃健華先生:係。 13 李澍桓大律師:個作用就係當消防員要入去火場,入咗大廈入面救火,佢哋可能要攞水嘅時 14 候就會喺後樓梯嘅呢個消防栓度攞水嘞? 15 黃健華先生:係。 16 李澍桓大律師:所以如果個消防栓係有損壞,好似你呢度所講,話有啲膠圈要損壞,咁同樣 17 地都係由年檢時候要睇埋,然之後就要跟住作出一個修補嘅? 18 黃健華先生:係。 19 李澍桓大律師:咁呢個就講緊樓層。 20 黃健華先生:唔嗯。 21 李澍桓大律師:好,咁我跟住落嚟就想問一問你關於地下,因為地下似乎就好似比較多啲唔 22 同嘅一啲裝備要做年檢嘅。 23 黃健華先生:唔。 24 李澍桓大律師:咁首先我想你睇一睇一個關於叫做水泵嘅問題,喺地下嗰度係咪有一個叫做- 25 -所謂叫做上水泵嘅機器、裝置? 26 黃健華先生:係。 27 李澍桓大律師:呢個上水泵以我嘅理解其實就係將喺地下,如果嗰個天面嘅嗰個消防水缸用 28 咗啲水,佢低過某一個水位嘅話,咁當然就要補充番啲水上去,因為佢係供應個喉 29 轆出水救火㗎嘛? 30 黃健華先生:你指係天台個消防缸? 31 李澍桓大律師:天台嗰個消防缸。 32 黃健華先生:係。 33 李澍桓大律師:所以就要喺地下嘅上水泵就扯啲水上去天面,去注滿番呢一個消防水缸,係 34 咪? 35 黃健華先生:係,係。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第五天 43 本謄本由Epiq 編製 李澍桓大律師:所以如果--而個天面嗰個水缸係咪有個裝置就有個浮波跌咗去某一個水位嘅 1 話,其實就會自動啟動呢個上水泵,再泵啲水上番去,正常運作嘅情況之下? 2 黃健華先生:係,有個叫做豬膽掣或者係浮波。 3 李澍桓大律師:另外有一個就應該叫做加壓泵,消防嘅加壓泵,呢個就唔係上水泵嘅作用㗎 4 嘞? 5 黃健華先生:係。 6 李澍桓大律師:呢個加壓嘅消防泵係愛嚟做乜,就係當真係消防員嚟救火嘅時候,由於一般 7 我哋家用嘅水喉嗰個水力可能唔夠,所以就要開動呢一個加壓泵,加大個水壓,愛 8 嚟幫助救火嘅? 9 黃健華先生:可以咁講。 10 李澍桓大律師:係咪?即係一般嘅理解就係? 11 黃健華先生:係。 12 李澍桓大律師:一陣間我再返轉頭講番呢兩個水泵。呢啲水泵喺地下嘅呢啲水泵就有地方要 13 擺嘅,所以... 14 黃健華先生:Sorry,有地方? 15 李澍桓大律師:要搵地方擺㗎嘛。 16 黃健華先生:係,係。 17 李澍桓大律師:所以我第一樣嘢,我想先問你就有一個叫做泵房嘅地方,係咪? 18 黃健華先生:佢有兩--啱啱你所講嘅,消防上水泵同加壓泵,佢係分開兩個地方擺嘅。 19 李澍桓大律師:所以我想講嘅就係其實有兩個泵房嘅? 20 黃健華先生:係。 21 李澍桓大律師:係咪?我哋先睇一個我叫佢做普通嘅泵房先,好唔好?如果我哋睇第B2 文 22 件冊/第1883 頁。 23 陸啟康法官:B2。 24 李澍桓大律師:如果我哋睇最頂嗰個,呢個就我哋由消防提供畀我哋嘅一啲資料,首先雖然 25 唔係影到成個,但係呢個就喺地下嘅一個--第一張相,最頂嗰張相,就係地下嘅嗰 26 個叫做運轉缸。 27 黃健華先生:係。 28 李澍桓大律師:消防嘅運轉缸,係咪? 29 黃健華先生:係。 30 李澍桓大律師:中間嗰個,其實即係我哋睇到入面嘅一個情況,呢個其實就係天面所講嘅消 31 防缸? 32 黃健華先生:係。 33 李澍桓大律師:你見到(English Spoken) 34 黃健華先生:(English Spoken) 35 李澍桓大律師:跟住下面嗰個,我哋見到就有一個叫做(English Spoken),其實應該 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第五天 44 本謄本由Epiq 編製 就係上水泵,係咪? 1 黃健華先生:係。 2 李澍桓大律師:呢一個就喺普通嘅一個泵房入面嘅,係咪? 3 黃健華先生:係,佢同食水、咸水個上水泵都係同一個泵房。 4 李澍桓大律師:如果我哋再睇C1 號文件冊part 3,第3 部分,C5(h)嗰度,我哋有啲 5 相,如果我哋睇C5(h)-2-5,應該係1643 頁開始嘅。 6 陸啟康法官:C1-2。 7 李澍桓大律師:我諗如果簡單啲應該係C1-2,就去到個頁碼就係1643 開始,咁我哋見到 8 呢度就係嗰個所謂泵房嘅情況。如果我哋揭後一頁1644,我哋見到就係泵房入面 9 嘅一啲其中一個角度睇到㗎喇。跟住再睇1645 頁,呢個就係咪應該就係嗰個上水 10 泵嘅? 11 黃健華先生:呢個我睇應該唔似係消防上水泵。 12 李澍桓大律師:唔似?如果咁你睇呢個係一個乜嘢嘅泵嚟? 13 黃健華先生:我--呢個可能係--我可以肯定話畀你知,呢個一定唔係消防上水泵,點解咁 14 講,因為你見到有個消防水缸,即係後面石屎有啲裂紋嗰個,咁佢有兩個掣喺個缸 15 度出嚟嘅,咁佢而家兩個掣出嚟就駁咗去兩台泵,咁呢個就肯定唔係消防上水缸, 16 因為消防只係得一台上水泵嘅啫,咁佢唔會有兩個掣出嚟嘅,我睇相估唔到佢係食 17 水定咸水。 18 李澍桓大律師:如果1646 頁呢?如果我哋睇後面嗰張,有個牌仔黐住喺個牆嗰度。 19 黃健華先生:係。 20 李澍桓大律師:其實我哋就見到佢寫住「消防」... 21 黃健華先生:哦,見到,見到嗰個指示牌。 22 李澍桓大律師:跟住見到前面應該有兩個黑色,然後有個膠桶反轉咗喺度嘅,咁呢一組會唔 23 會有機會就係個上水泵? 24 黃健華先生:應該都唔係,呢個喺兩台泵嘅後面,嗰度佢消防上水泵我冇記錯佢係橫身嘅, 25 佢唔係企身嘅。 26 李澍桓大律師:睇後一張相,1647。呢度見唔見到嗰個... 27 黃健華先生:呢度見到嘞,呢度見到。 28 李澍桓大律師:就係黐住嗰埲牆,有個喺近底部有個藍色掣,黑色掣,即係扭嘅掣嗰度,係 29 咪? 30 黃健華先生:係,應該係,嗰個係個消防轉運缸個出水閘掣。 31 陸啟康法官:呢個就係上水泵? 32 黃健華先生:上水泵。 33 李澍桓大律師:如果我哋再睇1651 頁,呢個以我理解都仍然係喺個--頭先我哋所謂嗰個泵 34 房裏面嘅一啲控制面板嚟嘅。 35 黃健華先生:係。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第五天 45 本謄本由Epiq 編製 李澍桓大律師:如果我哋睇右手邊綠色嗰個就應該係控制一個沖廁水嘅水泵。 1 黃健華先生:係。 2 李澍桓大律師:中間嗰個以你所知係一個乜嘢嘅泵嚟? 3 黃健華先生:我睇相估應該係食水嘅上水泵(English Spoken ),控制(English 4 Spoken)。 5 李澍桓大律師:左手邊紅色嗰個呢? 6 黃健華先生:消防上水泵。 7 李澍桓大律師:消防嘅上水泵。如果你睇1654 頁,我哋可能有個較為清楚啲嘅,喺呢一個 8 紅色消防上水泵嘅呢一個控制箱上面,我可唔可以請你首先睇,我哋有--最頂有三 9 個燈。 10 黃健華先生:係。 11 李澍桓大律師:跟住落嚟我哋就見到有一個好似指標咁樣嘅一個白色嘅面板。 12 黃健華先生:係。 13 李澍桓大律師:隔籬跟住有個「危險」嘅貼紙,再隔籬好似有一個掣嘅。 14 黃健華先生:見到。 15 李澍桓大律師:呢個掣係控制啲咩嘢?好似一個逼迫掣咁樣嘅。 16 黃健華先生:呢個掣係控制個上水泵嘅電源。 17 李澍桓大律師:係。而家呢一個你見到嘅呢一個狀態,即係佢似乎個掣係㧬咗向上,係代表 18 開定閂? 19 黃健華先生:係,開咗。 20 李澍桓大律師:開咗。因為我哋似乎都合理,因為上面嗰三眼燈好似著咗。 21 黃健華先生:係。 22 李澍桓大律師:如果閂咗呢一個掣嘅話,我嘅理解係咪個消防上水泵就會閂咗㗎嘞,就冇電 23 源㗎嘞? 24 黃健華先生:你意思係嗰個黑色嗰個細細嗰個掣? 25 李澍桓大律師:係。 26 黃健華先生:係。 27 李澍桓大律師:亦都即係話,如果天面嘅嗰個消防缸係啲水位下降都好,而由於下面嘅--假 28 如呢個消防上水泵係閂咗嘅話,我嘅理解就係理所當然就唔會有水注番上去個天面 29 嘅消防水缸度? 30 黃健華先生:係。 31 李澍桓大律師:如果我哋好快咁睇埋就係下面仲有一啲--似乎有一個按鈕喺左手邊,即係消 32 防用水泵嗰塊牌下面,就有一個叫做「發動」,綠色嘅掣,呢個掣係做咩嘢? 33 黃健華先生:呢個唔係掣,呢個係燈嚟。 34 李澍桓大律師:燈嚟嘅,okay。 35 黃健華先生:係。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第五天 46 本謄本由Epiq 編製 李澍桓大律師:左手邊紅色嗰個都係燈? 1 黃健華先生:都係燈,係。 2 李澍桓大律師:即係過載,係有咩嘢情況出現? 3 黃健華先生:你嘅意思係如果呢盞--嗰盞燈著咗,有咩嘢情況?台泵會唔行。 4 李澍桓大律師:係。跟住我哋再見綠色同紅色燈中間有一個好似--係咪都係一個掣?扭嘅 5 掣? 6 黃健華先生:呢個係一個選擇掣,咁就佢嘅作用如果我睇現場呢幅圖,就應該係睇--攞嚟選 7 擇畀--可能要上番少少幅相,唔好意思。 8 李澍桓大律師:係。 9 黃健華先生:有個好大個白色嗰個「機」字,有個錶,有個指針錶咁樣嘅,呢個就係攞嚟扭 10 嗰個,你要睇嗰個--呢個係三相泵,睇每一相個電流,佢就要扭,你想睇第一相, 11 咁就--或者我哋叫紅相,咁就要扭去紅相,咁個指針就會話畀佢知紅相係有幾多-- 12 行緊幾多嘅電流。咁佢有三檔嘅,一、二、三,就講緊三相電,咁零就應該就係冇 13 嘅。 14 李澍桓大律師:平時需唔需要--即係喺一個正常運作,呢個泵--假如係正常運作、有電源嘅 15 情況之下,需唔需要每日或者每一段時間要入去擰下呢啲掣,需唔需要? 16 黃健華先生:唔需要嘅。 17 李澍桓大律師:咁你做年檢嘅時候,呢一個咁樣嘅泵或者呢一個控制嘅面板,我叫佢。 18 黃健華先生:唔。 19 李澍桓大律師:屬唔屬於你年檢嘅即係範圍一部分? 20 黃健華先生:屬於。 21 李澍桓大律師:係,咁要檢查啲咩嘢,其實就住呢個上水泵? 22 黃健華先生:我哋首先要檢查啱啱你所講個天台水缸,佢有個豬膽掣,咁我哋會模擬佢冇水 23 嘅,咁就可能會抽乾個豬膽掣,模擬佢冇水,咁睇下個上水泵會唔會喺個自動狀態 24 下識唔識上水。跟住我哋都會可能會手動,因為佢再下面有個選擇掣嘅。 25 李澍桓大律師:係。 26 黃健華先生:跟住睇睇個--有個手動,咁我哋試下手動,個泵會唔會可以喺手動狀態下佢自 27 己行,係,跟住就會睇下啲指示燈有冇燒,跟住或者我哋要檢查埋個轉運缸有冇水 28 咁樣。 29 李澍桓大律師:當然,嗰個食水或者咸水嗰度就唔係你檢查? 30 黃健華先生:係。 31 李澍桓大律師:平時呢一個紅色呢個面板控制呢個消防上水泵,以你所知係咪任何一個人都 32 可以入去控制定還是需要啲咩嘢資格先可以控制? 33 黃健華先生:呢個係消防裝置,理應應該由消防承辦商去做嘅。 34 李澍桓大律師:係。即係宏泰消防就係其中一個持牌嘅承辦商可以... 35 黃健華先生:係,其中一個,係。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第五天 47 本謄本由Epiq 編製 李澍桓大律師:即係有資格去... 1 黃健華先生:係,檢查或者... 2 李澍桓大律師:...掂或者檢查呢個面板。其實我相信唔係淨係呢個面板,所有嘅消防裝 3 備,我頭先我哋睇過嘅警鐘、喉轆、噴嘴呢啲,其實嚴格上嚟講都要係由一個註冊 4 嘅消防裝備承辦商去負責做年檢同埋去做維修咁樣? 5 黃健華先生:係,年檢、維修一定係。 6 李澍桓大律師:即係我唔可以喺街邊求其搵個水電師傅就叫佢去整下呢啲裝備嘅? 7 黃健華先生:唔可以。 8 李澍桓大律師:不能夠嘅? 9 黃健華先生:係。 10 李澍桓大律師:跟住我想你睇一睇1635 頁,頭先我哋講咗一個我叫普通嘅泵房,咁我想你 11 睇睇另外一個。1635 頁,我哋見到個門嗰度其實就已經印住,呢個就叫做「消防 12 加壓泵房」。 13 黃健華先生:見到。 14 李澍桓大律師:係咪? 15 黃健華先生:係。 16 李澍桓大律師:呢個就係--係咪就係入面其中愛嚟設置咗,就係我哋頭先有講過嘅一個消防 17 嘅加壓泵,就係加大水壓嗰個裝置? 18 黃健華先生:係。 19 李澍桓大律師:所以如果我哋喺1637 頁,我哋就開始見到跟住嗰兩--1638 嗰張相都係, 20 其實就係嗰個加壓泵,係咪? 21 黃健華先生:係。 22 李澍桓大律師:如果我哋放大少少,同樣地嗰個加壓泵都有兩--起碼兩處位置其實掛住張警 23 告牌嘅。 24 黃健華先生:警告牌。 25 李澍桓大律師:嗰張警告牌應該就係話如果唔係合資格嘅人士,就唔可以去干擾呢一個裝 26 備,係咪? 27 黃健華先生:係,同埋有個檢查日期。 28 李澍桓大律師:係。1639,我哋見到呢個加壓泵房入面,又有一啲控制嘅裝置喺度,一啲面 29 板喺度,如果我哋先睇1641 頁,就係其實而家呢一頁入面左手邊大嗰個箱嚟嘅。 30 黃健華先生:見到。 31 李澍桓大律師:呢個箱可唔可以講一講其實係做啲咩嘢,有啲咩嘢作用? 32 黃健華先生:呢個箱佢有兩個功用,第一就係控制個消防加壓泵自動行,係,自動行,同埋 33 入面有個--呢度面板可能睇唔到,入面會有啲組件係當收到個樓層個消防扲手畀人 34 打爛咗,咁正常就會個警鐘會響,同埋自動個消防泵會行,咁係喺入面先會睇到嗰 35 啲組件嘅有機會。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第五天 48 本謄本由Epiq 編製 李澍桓大律:呢一個平時喺一般嘅情況入面,日常如果佢係正常運作嘅話,需唔需要每日入 1 去做一啲開關?即係純粹大呢個箱。 2 黃健華先生:你意思係每日? 3 李澍桓大律師:嗄,即係或者需唔需要每定時要做開關咁樣? 4 黃健華先生:你嘅「開關」意思係?唔係好明。 5 李澍桓大律師:開著某一啲--呢個加壓泵。 6 黃健華先生:每年最少一次。 7 李澍桓大律師:每年最少一次。但係日常即係你開住咗,開住咗佢就唔需要熄㗎嘛,唔需要 8 每日去熄㗎嘛,係咪? 9 黃健華先生:個電源掣係要長期保持開啟嘅,每日都要保持開啟。 10 李澍桓大律師:呢度睇唔睇到個電源掣? 11 黃健華先生:見到。 12 李澍桓大律師:即係喺呢個大箱上面喎? 13 黃健華先生:見到,有一號泵同二號泵,有兩個掣嘅。 14 李澍桓大律師:如果我哋睇中間嗰個--中間嗰度,上面呢度左手邊我哋見到有個銀色一條 15 嘢,類似一個鎖頭咁樣嘅嘢。 16 黃健華先生:係。 17 李澍桓大律師:跟住我哋見到就應該有一個--隱約見到就應該係「1 號泵掣」。 18 黃健華先生:泵掣,係。 19 李澍桓大律師:跟住係應該(English Spoken)。 20 黃健華先生:係。 21 李澍桓大律師:佢呢度都有一個掣嘅,係咪? 22 黃健華先生:係。 23 李澍桓大律師:我哋見到而家就似乎應該係處於一個... 24 黃健華先生:閂咗。 25 李澍桓大律師:...即係關嘅位置,off 嘅位置,係咪? 26 黃健華先生:向上係閂定開呢? 27 李澍桓大律師:唔緊要,如果唔清楚嘅話,我哋睇埋相片右手邊同一行,同一個水平。 28 黃健華先生:係。 29 李澍桓大律師:我哋見到「(English Spoken)2 號泵掣」,呢個就好明顯嗰個標示就 30 寫住“off”。 31 黃健華先生:見到。 32 李澍桓大律師:個掣就係似乎㧬咗去上面。 33 黃健華先生:係。 34 李澍桓大律師:如果咁樣嘅顯示,我嘅理解就應該係1 號同2 號泵都熄咗嘅,我嘅理解啱唔 35 啱? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第五天 49 本謄本由Epiq 編製 黃健華先生:應該,我唔肯定,因為有機會有啲掣係上熄或者係向下熄先係熄嘅,而家咁樣 1 睇,我估應該係熄嘅,佢show 咗個off 出嚟。 2 李澍桓大律師:因為我諗嗰個指示就係話畀你知個掣處於乜嘢嘅狀態,係咪? 3 黃健華先生:可以,認同。 4 李澍桓大律師:咁我想問呢兩個,即係1 號泵、2 號泵嘅呢兩個掣,其實係控制啲乜嘢嘢? 5 黃健華先生:呢兩個掣其實顧名思義,即係控制嗰佢上面嗰塊牌寫嗰個泵嘅,咁就兩個掣, 6 左手邊有一個1 號泵掣,跟住呢個閂咗,1 號消防泵係唔會識運行嘅。咁2 號泵個 7 掣一樣,如果閂咗情況下,個2 號泵係唔識運行嘅。 8 李澍桓大律師:但係佢呢個泵係--因我哋之前有講過有個上水泵,就喺一個普通嘅泵房入 9 面,咁呢一個就其實係控制嗰兩個... 10 黃健華先生:消防加壓泵。 11 李澍桓大律師:加壓泵係唔係有一個定兩個? 12 黃健華先生:兩個。 13 李澍桓大律師:點解要有兩個嘅? 14 黃健華先生:因為當時起樓嘅設計,同埋我諗佢嘅主要個目的就係當一個泵壞咗,佢會有一 15 個士啤泵嘅作用。 16 李澍桓大律師:但係如果根據你剛剛解釋畀我哋知,就算乜嘢原因都好,我要閂咗呢個加壓 17 泵,我喺應該大呢個箱嘅版面上面其實係唔係可以控制到佢開關嘅? 18 黃健華先生:你意思淨係個泵? 19 李澍桓大律師:淨係個泵。 20 黃健華先生:可以。 21 李澍桓大律師:呢個版面你有冇見到佢仲控制其他嘢或者標示其他嘢? 22 黃健華先生:有嘅,當然有其他泵--或者可能2 號泵上面有個叫做「警鐘靜止掣」嘅,如果 23 呢個掣係扭咗嘅情況下,個警鐘係唔識響嘅。 24 李澍桓大律師:你講嘅警鐘係即係每... 25 黃健華先生:樓層。 26 李澍桓大律師:...一個樓層,頭先睇過嗰啲警鐘,係咪? 27 黃健華先生:係嘞。 28 李澍桓大律師:如果呢個即係話我可以獨立去閂咗個警鐘嘅? 29 黃健華先生:呢個扭咗就個警鐘會唔響,可以,可以咁講,即係扭咗個掣,個鐘係唔會響 30 嘅。 31 李澍桓大律師:係。而家我哋就用緊宏志閣睇呢一個控制嘅版面,以你所知係唔係每一座, 32 即係宏福苑八座入面其實嗰個設計都係相類似,就係有一個咁樣嘅版面,嗰啲掣係 33 可以喺版面上面--假如係當係一個合資格嘅人士去到要開要閂,其實就喺個版面度 34 控制到嘅? 35 黃健華先生:可以嘅。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第五天 50 本謄本由Epiq 編製 李澍桓大律師:即係八座都係咁樣嘅設計? 1 黃健華先生:相同設計,差唔多咁樣樣。 2 李澍桓大律師:因為我知有一樣嘢可能係有少少分別嘅,就係如果我哋睇1642 頁,我哋就 3 見到喺呢個大嘅版面入面,其實隔籬就有呢個細嘅版面,同埋好簡單,就似乎得一 4 個掣,呢個係一個乜嘢嘅裝置? 5 黃健華先生:係,呢個係消防泵嘅總掣,總電掣。 6 李澍桓大律師:你講消防泵,因為我哋... 7 黃健華先生:消防加壓泵。 8 李澍桓大律師:加壓泵? 9 黃健華先生:係。 10 李澍桓大律師:嘅總電掣? 11 黃健華先生:係。 12 李澍桓大律師:咁即係話我可以選擇即係頭先我哋大版面上面1 號泵、2 號泵嗰個掣,亦都 13 可以選擇喺呢度直接閂咗個泵佢? 14 黃健華先生:要睇你個目的性係咩嘢。 15 李澍桓大律師:有啲咩嘢目的或者咩嘢情況之下,你覺得係需要閂呢一個總電掣呢? 16 黃健華先生:因為我想講一講,呢個總電掣除咗係控制個消防泵之外,會個警鐘扲手個電源 17 都係呢個掣畀出去嘅。 18 李澍桓大律師:係。 19 黃健華先生:係嘞,如果我唔想--我唔使兩台泵行,淨係可以閂咗兩台泵嗰兩個細掣,如果 20 你想連埋個警鐘扲手要停,或者可能一啲工程我唔知可能有其他工程,想可能要維 21 修呢個(English Spoken)箱嘅,可能要閂咗呢個總掣,咁就cut 咗隔籬嗰啲 22 電。 23 李澍桓大律師:咁如果--總結一下先,即係如果我淨係想個上水泵唔運作嘅話呢,我就去番 24 嗰個另一個泵房度就閂咗個上水泵佢,係咪? 25 黃健華先生:係。 26 李澍桓大律師:如果我淨係想個加壓泵唔運作嘅,咁就喺呢一個加壓泵房度就熄咗 27 (English Spoken)? 28 黃健華先生:係。 29 李澍桓大律師:如果我想唔搞個泵,但係我淨係想大廈嗰個消防響鬧裝置熄咗佢嘅,我就喺 30 大個面版度就... 31 黃健華先生:(English Spoken)咗個總... 32 李澍桓大律師:Mute 咗佢,即係靜音咗佢? 33 黃健華先生:我補充少少,因為你大廈消防警鐘,如果你淨係純粹想換個警鐘嘅時候,你可 34 以(English Spoken )到個鐘掣嘅,但係如果你要換一個(English 35 Spoken),即係我講緊個扲手掣就唔可以嘅,即係一定要閂個掣先換到嘅。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第五天 51 本謄本由Epiq 編製 李澍桓大律師:因為1641 我哋就見到有頭先所講嘅所謂靜音掣,1642 我哋就見到有個總 1 掣,你意思就係如果我要換扲手嘅時候,即係打爛塊玻璃嗰兩個嘢嘅時候,就要閂 2 呢一個總掣? 3 黃健華先生:係嘅。 4 李澍桓大律師:喺度停一停,就住閂總掣,同樣地,係咪任何一個人都可以有權入去--即係 5 有資格入去閂㗎? 6 黃健華先生:以我理解,唔係。 7 李澍桓大律師:咁以你嘅理解係? 8 黃健華先生:應該係消防承辦商。 9 李澍桓大律師:即係例如宏泰消防就有咁嘅資格可以去閂? 10 黃健華先生:係。 11 李澍桓大律師:譬如就咁講閂呢個總掣,作為都喺宏泰消防做咗咁耐,以你所知,有冇法例 12 上或者消防處有冇一啲規定要做啲咩嘢嘢,你先可以即係關咗呢一個總掣? 13 黃健華先生:相關工程。 14 李澍桓大律師:相關... 15 黃健華先生:唔好意思,可唔可以再問多一次? 16 李澍桓大律師:即係我可唔可以就咁樣唔話畀任何人知,簡單講得白啲,我自己走入去閂咗 17 個總掣佢,得唔得? 18 黃健華先生:如果唔係做緊工程,唔可以。 19 李澍桓大律師:就算做緊工程嘅時候,以我所知,係唔係要通知消防處? 20 黃健華先生:維修係唔使嘅。 21 李澍桓大律師:維修唔使? 22 黃健華先生:係嘞。 23 李澍桓大律師:即係維修嗰個裝置本身唔使? 24 黃健華先生:係,因為正常咁講,當我哋去做維修,咁係一個好短暫嘅工程,可能一個鐘、 25 兩個鐘,我哋可以閂咗,維修員開番,咁唔使再通知消防處嘅。 26 李澍桓大律師:舉個例,譬如話我某一個樓層,頭先你所講個扲手我要換,咁你個講法就係 27 就一定要閂個總掣,即係靜音都唔得? 28 黃健華先生:係。 29 李澍桓大律師:咁我去閂呢個總掣換個扲手嘅時候,你嘅講法就係我唔需要通知消防? 30 黃健華先生:係。 31 李澍桓大律師:我哋喺呢個聽證會入面期間都有聽過有一啲文件叫做(English 32 Spoken),SDN,關閉嘅通知書,呢一樣嘢如果係咁樣,幾時先要用? 33 黃健華先生:關閉呢個電掣超過廿四小時或者(English Spoken ),先要去入嗰張 34 (English Spoken)。 35 李澍桓大律師:所以如果以你嘅經驗,就係話如果我可以當日已經完成咗換呢個扲手嘅,即 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第五天 52 本謄本由Epiq 編製 係用番我頭先嘅例子,其實可能一個鐘、兩個鐘都已經完成咗嗰個工程,咁可以跟 1 住開番佢,咁呢個情況之下就唔需要額外通知消防嘅? 2 黃健華先生:消防處,係。 3 李澍桓大律師:同樣地想了解多少少啫,呢一個消防加壓泵,你係點樣去測試佢個運作係咪 4 正常㿋㗎? 5 黃健華先生:點樣測試佢運作係咪正常? 6 李澍桓大律師:即係做年檢嗰陣時。 7 黃健華先生:首先我哋會去現場,咁就試一試佢個手動係唔係可以--個泵係唔係識正常轉 8 動,跟住我哋就會去試一啲相關連嘅測試,咁係啲咩嘢呢?可能就正如啱啱講過打 9 爛個(English Spoken ),咁個泵就應該自動會行。跟住就會試一試個消防 10 鐘,睇下個消防鐘係唔係會響,大致上係呢啲。咁同埋會睇睇個(English 11 Spoken)面可能會唔會有啲明顯嘅損壞,啲燈掣燒咗唔著咁樣。 12 李澍桓大律師:我哋講番宏泰消防同埋黃生你本人。 13 黃健華先生:唔。 14 李澍桓大律師:我哋知道2025 年嘅話,就喺3 月24 號到26 號做咗一個年檢嘅? 15 黃健華先生:係。 16 李澍桓大律師:咁我哋亦都知道你係影咗啲相,就話某一--每一座大廈需要更換嘅一啲設備 17 呢,咁你就向你嘅老闆做咗個紀錄,亦都匯報咗嘅,係咪? 18 黃健華先生:係。 19 李澍桓大律師:我一陣間會再同你講多少少關於嗰個年檢上面一啲細節。但係純粹一般性嚟 20 講,當你做完呢個年檢,你話咗所謂報告畀鍾生聽,我嘅理解係唔係鍾生跟住就要 21 做番一份表格上報番畀消防處嘅? 22 黃健華先生:你個表格係? 23 李澍桓大律師:係唔係好似有一份叫251 咁樣嘅? 24 黃健華先生:251 嗰張係一張證書嚟嘅。另外應該有啲叫做消防核對表,咁年檢嘅要求要一 25 齊交埋去消防處嘅。 26 李澍桓大律師:咁消防處就要收到呢一份表格之後,通常因為我見到喺呢件案入面,我哋就 27 有啲地方係需要註明咗,就話要要修理嘅。 28 黃健華先生:係。 29 李澍桓大律師:消防處有冇規定話幾時個業主就一定要修理好呢一啲損毀咗嘅裝備? 30 黃健華先生:呢個我唔太清楚即係個期限要幾耐。 31 李澍桓大律師:係。 32 黃健華先生:大約... 33 李澍桓大律師:咁另外一樣嘢,當你要去做呢個所謂維修,我相信或者你未必直接知道,但 34 係我相信就中間都要經宏福苑去做一啲報價,然之後佢哋批准咗,你哋先可以去 35 做,係咪? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第五天 53 本謄本由Epiq 編製 黃健華先生:係。 1 李澍桓大律師:所以以我哋知道嗰個資料就似乎應該係就住一啲水喉工嘅修補工作,就應該 2 係2025 年10 月喥,就係你哋做一啲水喉嘅同事開始去做,係咪? 3 黃健華先生:係。 4 李澍桓大律師:佢哋處理完呢啲水喉工程之後,你就應該係唔係11 月19 號開始就去做另 5 外...(聽不清)嗰啲裝置? 6 黃健華先生:係。 7 李澍桓大律師:應該係唔係仲有牽涉到有一位梁先生? 8 黃健華先生:梁先生,係,佢係個外判商,咁佢就負責換啲後樓梯啲緊急照明燈,或者可能 9 一啲射嘴嗰啲可能好簡單嘅工程。 10 李澍桓大律師:喺水缸嘅呢個問題上面。 11 黃健華先生:係。 12 李澍桓大律師:跳番少少,去番2025 年3 月嗰個年檢。 13 黃健華先生:唔。 14 李澍桓大律師:以你所記得,你做完個檢查,或者你同你嘅同事做完檢查之後,天面嘅消防 15 水缸有冇發覺有問題需要做一啲修葺、維修嘅工程? 16 黃健華先生:冇發覺。 17 李澍桓大律師:通常就住天面嘅水缸,你哋要做乜嘢檢查? 18 黃健華先生:我哋會試下佢係唔係一個自動會上水嘅狀態。 19 李澍桓大律師:係。 20 黃健華先生:係嘞。 21 李澍桓大律師:除此之外,譬如水缸如果有人話漏水,你使唔使去睇㗎? 22 黃健華先生:如果收到人話個水缸漏水,我哋會去望。 23 李澍桓大律師:咁喺2025 年3 月嘅時候,你去做呢個年檢,有冇任何人畀過指示你話就住 24 水缸嘅問題係出現咗漏水,叫你去檢查? 25 黃健華先生:冇。 26 李澍桓大律師:我想你去睇一睇有一個文件,都係喺R1 嗰個文件冊,頁碼係361 頁,呢個 27 首先第一,係唔係就係你所講其中一個所謂叫做核對表? 28 黃健華先生:係。 29 李澍桓大律師:另外我哋都可以再睇埋305 頁,咁呢個又係有一個供水系統年檢核對表,咁 30 同我哋頭先睇到--係,等一等吓。而家呢張我哋見到305 頁,我哋見到個頂頂嗰 31 度就寫住「供水系統年檢核對表」,睇多少少,我哋就見到係3 月24 號有關於宏 32 仁閣A 座嘅一個表格嚟嘅,係咪? 33 黃健華先生:唔。 34 李澍桓大律師:我哋見到年檢嘅日期就3 月24,跟住入面就有好多格格,是、否、不適用 35 咁樣嘅,有好多欄目嘅,呢張表格係邊個做㗎? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第五天 54 本謄本由Epiq 編製 黃健華先生:我剔嘅。 1 李澍桓大律師:你剔嘅? 2 黃健華先生:係。 3 李澍桓大律師:即係黃生你做嘅? 4 黃健華先生:係。 5 李澍桓大律師:咁呢個係唔係反映到你當時就係做年檢嗰陣時嗰個實際嘅情況? 6 黃健華先生:係。 7 李澍桓大律師:我哋頭先講,就有另一張嘅表格相類似嘅,我哋如果睇361 頁,跟住我哋又 8 見到個頂頂嗰度,呢度就寫住「消防栓/喉轆系統年檢核對表」,同樣都係宏仁 9 閣,3 月24 號。 10 黃健華先生:係。 11 李澍桓大律師:呢一個我嘅理解其實係唔係就係同之前睇嗰張相類似,不過檢查嘅裝置唔同, 12 所以有唔同嘅表格要填? 13 黃健華先生:係。 14 李澍桓大律師:咁我可唔可以理解呢一個都係由你去負責制備呢一個咁樣嘅表格,係咪? 15 黃健華先生:個表格唔係我哋制定嘅,消防處制定嘅。 16 李澍桓大律師:但係剔嗰啲係你剔呢? 17 黃健華先生:係我剔嘅。 18 李澍桓大律師:你剔嘅,就係因應做你去做個檢查時候,個結果係點,你就係咁剔,係咪 19 黃健華先生:係。 20 李澍桓大律師:如果係咁,譬如舉個例,362 頁,喺第5 項嗰個欄目上面呢,我哋見到就係 21 關於消防喉轆,跟住5(a),我就見到你剔咗個「否」嘅,咁呢度係代表啲咩嘢意 22 思? 23 黃健華先生:反映到我哋年檢喺就住呢個消防喉轆入面,咁佢下半寫住包括主體有一堆可能 24 膠喉、射嘴,... (聽不清)玻璃之類嘅,咁我哋發現有損壞,我哋就要剔個 25 「否」喇。 26 李澍桓大律師:咁做完呢個表格之後,就住你哋年檢上面仲有啲乜嘢嘢要處理㗎? 27 黃健華先生:要出個F.S.251。 28 李澍桓大律師:係,就係你剛才講嗰個證書? 29 黃健華先生:係。 30 李澍桓大律師:譬如我哋啲第657 頁,咁我哋呢度見到又係關於宏仁閣嘅一張表格,咁如果 31 我哋見到個--佢三部分嘅,第一部分又列出咗一啲嘢,你可唔可以先講第一部分紫 32 色用於年檢事項,跟住下面有啲代號,11、16、13,呢個係代表啲乜嘢意思㗎? 33 黃健華先生:呢方面我唔係好熟悉,因為我好少處理呢啲文件嘅。 34 李澍桓大律師:呢啲文件唔係你做嘅? 35 黃健華先生:唔係我做嘅。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第五天 55 本謄本由Epiq 編製 李澍桓大律師:咁我留番,似乎應該就係鍾生做,咁我留番問鍾生。做完呢個年檢,我哋-- 1 正如剛才所講,你就應該係2025 年11 月19 號嘅時候,就再次喺宏福苑出現, 2 因為要做一啲維修嘅工作,係咪? 3 黃健華先生:係。 4 李澍桓大律師:咁你都曾經喺你嘅口供入面有講過,就需要先去--原本因為你要閂咗個電 5 掣,係咪? 6 黃健華先生:唔係我,李俊賢。 7 李澍桓大律師:因為個原因就係好似驚會有漏電嘅風險? 8 黃健華先生:係嘞,因為正如所講,我哋要換(English Spoken),所以就要閂咗個總 9 掣,咁先可以安全情況下換個(English Spoken)嘅。 10 李澍桓大律師:即係我哋之前睇到加壓泵房入面細嗰個紅色板面嗰個,係唔係你哋叫刀仔? 11 黃健華先生:刀仔。 12 李澍桓大律師:咁就要閂咗佢,但係一閂咗就會連個消防嗰個響鬧裝置都會閂埋個囉喎? 13 黃健華先生:係,但係唔係我哋閂嘅。 14 李澍桓大律師:呢度我就想問多少少,因為我知道個資料顯示,就係話李生去到嘅時候,就 15 發覺八座個刀仔都已經畀人閂咗,係咪? 16 黃健華先生:係。 17 李澍桓大律師:咁我哋亦都見到似乎應該係鍾生提供番畀我哋,就係話有一啲WhatsApp, 18 就係即時係唔係應該李生就影低咗相,就喺你哋群組上面有匯報番嗰啲掣畀人閂咗 19 咁樣,你記唔記得? 20 黃健華先生:唔記得,你講李俊賢先生,係咪? 21 李澍桓大律師:係,不如咁講,我試下--我問得唔好。喺你哋做11 月呢一個維修工作嘅時 22 候呢,你記唔記得其實你哋自己同事,即係包括鍾生係唔係應該有一個WhatsApp 23 群組? 24 黃健華先生:好似係。 25 李澍桓大律師:每一座都有? 26 黃健華先生:應該係,我印象中好似係。 27 李澍桓大律師:我不如畀番個WhatsApp 紀錄你睇,我哋可以。主席,因為我諗我都要啲時 28 間搵番嗰啲WhatsApp,唔知好唔好而家係一個方便嘅時間? 29 陸啟康法官:係,我哋而家休庭十分鐘。 30

31 15 時23 分聆訊押後 32 15 時34 分聆訊繼續 33

34 陸啟康法官:李律師,請繼續。 35 李澍桓大律師:唔該,主席。黃先生,我想你再睇頭先我哋睇過嗰啲版面嗰啲掣呢。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第五天 56 本謄本由Epiq 編製 黃健華先生:好。 1 李澍桓大律師:我跳去下一個題目之前,我想你再睇多一張,1579 頁,C1 嗰個文件冊。你 2 見到呢一個相類似嘅一大一細嘅設計,隔籬嗰個就都係一個我哋之前睇過嘅嗰個控 3 制嘅版面,係咪? 4 黃健華先生:係。 5 李澍桓大律師:咁基本上都一樣㗎嘞,我哋見到就似乎呢個好似打開咗,但係我哋都見到有 6 所謂(English Spoken)同(English Spoken)嘅(English Spoken) 7 嗰啲掣,係咪? 8 黃健華先生:係。 9 李澍桓大律師:以你理解,你頭先都講過,就係其實都係--應該個設計都係大致一樣? 10 黃健華先生:係。 11 李澍桓大律師:都係可以喺個版面度控制佢開關,係咪? 12 黃健華先生:係。 13 李澍桓大律師:亦都上面有一個所謂消防警鐘嘅靜音掣,係咪呀? 14 黃健華先生:係。 15 李澍桓大律師:喺嗰左手邊,呢個就好似有少少同嗰個細嘅,之前睇過嘅就唔同嘞,但係呢 16 個都係--以我理解都係一個總掣嘅刀掣嚟嘅。 17 黃健華先生:正確。 18 李澍桓大律師:只不過呢個就係向上向下拉推嘅一個裝置? 19 黃健華先生:係。 20 李澍桓大律師:就同之前向左右擰嘅就有唔同。 21 黃健華先生:係。 22 李澍桓大律師:但係同樣地我哋而家喺宏建閣,呢張相見到嘅呢個裝置呢,細嘅呢個箱都係 23 如果一閂咗嘅話,就消防鐘、泵嗰個電源都會係切斷? 24 黃健華先生:正確。 25 李澍桓大律師:同樣地,如果你去要做宏建閣嗰個修補工程嘅時候,當要熄個總掣你就係熄 26 呢一個宏建閣嘅呢個刀掣,係咪呀? 27 黃健華先生:係。 28 李澍桓大律師:問多你一樣嘢,大嗰個控制版面,其實嗰個箱係可以就咁樣開到出嚟,係咪 29 呀?有個... 30 黃健華先生:可以,可以,可以,用少少力其實可以開到個面板出嚟。 31 李澍桓大律師:係,唔需要鎖匙,咩嘢都唔需要? 32 黃健華先生:呢個唔需要嘅。 33 李澍桓大律師:係。我剛才就有講過話一啲--想你睇一睇一啲WhatsApp 嘅截圖嘅。 34 黃健華先生:唔。 35 李澍桓大律師:如果我哋睇R1/686 頁為例,你見到頂嗰度就寫住,個群組個名,似乎就係 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第五天 57 本謄本由Epiq 編製 宏福苑A 座,宏仁閣喇? 1 黃健華先生: 2 李澍桓大律師:咁如果我哋睇R1 嗰個文件冊第686 頁為例呢,咁你見到頂嗰度就寫住,嗰 3 群組嘅名似乎就係「宏福苑A 座宏仁閣」? 4 黃健華先生:係。 5 李澍桓大律師:嗰啲最--之前嗰兩張相應該就係換咗一啲零件之後做一個... 6 黃健華先生:紀錄。 7 李澍桓大律師:...紀錄嘅一啲相片。跟住我哋見到接近個尾,即係頁底嗰度,我哋就見到 8 11 月19 號星期三。 9 黃健華先生:係。 10 李澍桓大律師:跟住有一個「9757」,我哋就劃咗嗰個阿Jack 嘅電話嚟嘅。 11 黃健華先生:係。 12 李澍桓大律師:阿Jack 係你定係李生呀? 13 黃健華先生:9757 應該係李生電話。 14 李澍桓大律師:係,跟住我哋見到呢個頁底嗰度有一個訊息,就寫住「消防泵被關」。11 點 15 54 分? 16 黃健華先生:係,係。 17 李澍桓大律師:呢個係咪就係你所講,當日11 月19 號諗住去做維修,即係做裝備嗰個切換 18 嘅時候就發覺個總掣已經畀人閂咗? 19 黃健華先生:係,李生發現嘅。 20 李澍桓大律師:以你所知,呢個消防泵係--我哋知道有兩個㗎嘛,一個上水泵、一個加壓 21 泵,佢所講「消防泵被關」。 22 黃健華先生:加壓泵。 23 李澍桓大律師:加壓泵。 24 黃健華先生:係。 25 李澍桓大律師:即係話我哋頭先睇到兩個版面,一大一細嘅嗰個泵? 26 黃健華先生:係。 27 李澍桓大律師:除咗喺呢個訊息上面,李生有冇另外再同你講究竟呢個消防泵被關係純粹-- 28 因為我哋頭先都睇到,大嗰個版面可以閂個泵㗎咋嘛,佢係話畀你知嗰個泵閂咗 29 吖,定係個總掣? 30 黃健華先生:總掣。 31 李澍桓大律師:總掣閂咗? 32 黃健華先生:係。 33 李澍桓大律師:但係呢度,佢淨係純粹講消防泵咋嘛。 34 黃健華先生:係。 35 李澍桓大律師:你點知係講緊... 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第五天 58 本謄本由Epiq 編製 黃健華先生:我嗰日19 號我有落現場,咁我大約十一點零、十二點鐘咁去到見到李生,佢 1 就同我講話個消防泵總掣畀人閂咗。 2 李澍桓大律師:呢一個群組呢,因為如果你其實揭去後一頁,687 我哋見到有另一個群組 3 嘅,就係「宏福苑B 座宏道閣」,其實如此類推,一路落去,似乎每一個,除咗D 4 座呢度冇提供到出嚟,一路每一座都似乎你哋都有一個WhatsApp 嘅群組嘅? 5 黃健華先生:係。 6 李澍桓大律師:係咪?你都記得有呢樣嘢? 7 黃健華先生:我想講一講,呢個群組,我唔喺入面嘅。 8 李澍桓大律師:你唔喺入面嘅? 9 黃健華先生:係,我唔喺入面嚟嘅。 10 李澍桓大律師:係,咁即係應該淨係得阿Jack,即係李生? 11 黃健華先生:我想講講,阿Jack 就係講緊嗰個梁生。 12 李澍桓大律師:梁生。 13 黃健華先生:係嘞,梁生,9575 就係係李生,跟住5542,呢個應該我哋有個學徒嘅,應該 14 都喺入面嘅。 15 李澍桓大律師:係,咁鍾生喺唔喺咪呢個群組嗰度㗎? 16 黃健華先生:應該唔喺。 17 李澍桓大律師:係。 18 生唔見佢嘅電話,係嘞,鍾意唔見佢個電話,係嘞。 19 李澍桓大律師:Okay,或者我一陣間先再問阿李生,但係如果我想你睇692 頁呢,首先 20 692 頁(English Spoken)上水泵房,跟住張相上面攞住一個零件,呢個係咩 21 嘢零件嚟㗎? 22 黃健華先生:(English Spoken)斷容器。 23 李澍桓大律師:即係--或者斷容器,係咪呀? 24 黃健華先生:係嘞。 25 李澍桓大律師:係換喺邊度嘅一個? 26 黃健華先生:喺上水泵個控制箱入面一啲組件嚟嘅,一啲(English Spoken)嚟嘅。 27 李澍桓大律師:係,喺同一頁上面,即係692 頁,你見到個頂頂宏福苑H 座宏志閣,就你頭 28 先都講,有個5542 嘅呢個電話就應該係一位學徒嘅電話。 29 黃健華先生:係。 30 李澍桓大律師:9757 就係李生。 31 黃健華先生:係。 32 李澍桓大律師:Jack 係叫做梁文仲(譯音)先生。 33 黃健華先生:梁生,係。 34 李澍桓大律師:呢個你呢,其實因為呢個WhatsApp 嘅截圖其實係鍾生提供畀我哋嘅,即係 35 提供畀消防嘅亦都有。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第五天 59 本謄本由Epiq 編製 黃健華先生:係。 1 李澍桓大律師:所以我估,就反為倒番轉,你頭先講可能係啱嘅,你自己本人,黃生你就唔 2 喺群組入面嘅? 3 黃健華先生:係。 4 李澍桓大律師:唔。就住水缸,我頭先再講水缸嗰個問題呢,事後我哋有一啲--委員會收到 5 一啲證據或者一啲口供呢,佢就話其實個水缸呢,即係天面嗰八個水缸呢。 6 黃健華先生:唔。 7 李澍桓大律師:出現有結構性嘅問題、有漏水、入面有好多啲沉積物,對於呢一個嘅講法, 8 你有冇啲乜嘢回應,同唔同意呢個講法? 9 黃健華先生:我冇見過以上情況。 10 李澍桓大律師:你冇見過,即係唔同意呢個講法? 11 黃健華先生:麻煩可唔可以問多次? 12 李澍桓大律師:有人話上面個水缸其實漏水嘅? 13 黃健華先生:係。 14 李澍桓大律師:當然,佢講嘅時候似乎就係2025 年9 月。你做年檢2025 年3 月嘅時候, 15 有冇人同你表示過話有漏水嘅問題? 16 黃健華先生:冇。 17 李澍桓大律師:當你檢查入面嘅時候,嗰個天面嗰個消防水缸呢,有冇發覺入面個結構係有 18 問題? 19 黃健華先生:冇發覺。 20 李澍桓大律師:到臨屘兩個嘅議題,首先,第一,喺11 月26 號呢,大火當日,我哋知道你 21 就因應鍾生嘅要求呢,原本你走咗㗎嘞。 22

23 黃健華先生:係。 24 李澍桓大律師:中午喥就完成咗你嘅維修嘅工程。 25 黃健華先生:係。 26 李澍桓大律師:但係大火嘅時候你旁晚就返番去宏福苑睇下有咩嘢幫到手嘅,係咪? 27 黃健華先生:係。 28 李澍桓大律師:似乎根據你嘅講法,你記唔記得就係返到去嘅時候你有嘗試問番置邦嗰邊嘅 29 一啲管理人員呢,就好似話想問番佢哋攞嗰啲所謂叫做(English Spoken), 30 係咪? 31 黃健華先生:係。 32 李澍桓大律師:當然我哋而家知道呢一個(English Spoken)係由2025 年4 月左右由另一間 33 消防裝備嘅註冊承辦商去入嘅,係咪,中華發展。 34 黃健華先生:係。 35 李澍桓大律師:你當要問阿王小姐佢哋囉--鄭小姐佢哋攞番呢一啲咁樣嘅文件,有冇咩嘢特 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第五天 60 本謄本由Epiq 編製 別原因? 1 黃健華先生:就係想係咪真係有消防公司去暫停咗個消防系統。 2 李澍桓大律師:係。 3 黃健華先生:想求證。 4 李澍桓大律師:但係你應該喺較早前已經有人話咗畀你知,因為有維修嘅工程,所以就掛咗 5 牌。 6 黃健華先生:係。 7 李澍桓大律師:已經停咗㗎喇嘛。 8 黃健華先生:係。 9 李澍桓大律師:咁呢個亦都唔係由你去入㗎嘛? 10 黃健華先生:唔係我哋入嘅。 11 李澍桓大律師:所以其實嚴格上嚟講,照道理,對於你哋宏泰消防都冇乜緊要㗎,有冇呢一 12 張(English Spoken),因為根據你哋嘅講法,唔關你哋事㗎嘛? 13 黃健華先生:因為我哋見到佢個系--即係個消防總掣畀人閂咗,咁我唔知佢哋知唔知道。 14 李澍桓大律師:係。 15 黃健華先生:係嘞,咁我就走去搵阿鄭小姐問佢知唔知咁嘅情況。 16 李澍桓大律師:係。 17 黃健華先生:咁佢就回覆話係佢哋有消防工程做緊,咁就要閂咗個總掣,跟住因為個消防-- 18 佢話個宏業,即係嗰間大判就請咗佢哋嘅消防公司承辦商去暫停咗個系統,跟住我 19 走去問佢,「如果你暫停系統有冇掛牌呀?」即係我意思就係咁講,SDN 有冇掛 20 牌,佢就話佢哋有掛牌嘅。同埋... 21 李澍桓大律師:呢個係喺11 月19 號你知悉咗個總掣畀人閂咗嘅時候問,定係11 月26 22 號...(聽不清) 23 黃健華先生:19 號,19 號。 24 李澍桓大律師:19 號你已經問咗? 25 黃健華先生:係嘞。 26 李澍桓大律師:咁你當時就已經有向佢要求過話睇嗰啲SDN? 27 黃健華先生:係。 28 李澍桓大律師:但係佢畀唔畀到你呀? 29 黃健華先生:佢話搵唔到,即係嗰一刻搵唔到。 30 李澍桓大律師:係,就甚至乎根據你嘅講法就去到11 月26 號大火嘅時間。 31 黃健華先生:佢都畀唔到我哋睇。 32 李澍桓大律師:佢都仲係畀唔到你? 33 黃健華先生:係。 34 李澍桓大律師:另一個議題就係,你哋25 年10 月又好、25 年11 月又好,當返去替呢一 35 啲消防裝備做維修嘅時候,睇下我理解啱唔啱,其實個工作就包括兩部分嘅,第一 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第五天 61 本謄本由Epiq 編製 當然係更換啲損壞咗嘅零件,係咪? 1 黃健華先生:係。 2 李澍桓大律師:第二個,同埋我覺得都重要嘅工作呢,就係替換咗呢一啲零件之後,就去做 3 一啲測試。 4 黃健華先生:係。 5 李澍桓大律師:因為換完你都要知道(English Spoken)唔(English Spoken )㗎 6 嘛。 7 黃健華先生:(English Spoken)唔(English Spoken)。 8 李澍桓大律師:但由於舉個例,你頭先都講到,譬如個扲手換完,但係由於個總掣畀人熄 9 咗,所以其實你哋換完都好,測試唔到個新嘅扲手係咪(English Spoken)㗎 10 喎。 11 黃健華先生:係。 12 李澍桓大律師:同唔同意我嘅講法,無論個原因係喺邊度嚟都好,你嘅工作其實未做完㗎 13 喎,同唔同意呀?因為你未測試吖嘛。 14 黃健華先生:同意。 15 李澍桓大律師:你做完嗰個更換嘅程序之後呢,換咗新零件之後呢,有冇當你同鄭小姐任何 16 時間話「喂,我哋要測試,叫佢開番個總掣」? 17 黃健華先生:我冇叫過。 18 李澍桓大律師:有冇乜嘢原因令到你唔去提出呢個要求? 19 黃健華先生:因為佢同我講係有一間消防承辦商閂咗個掣,咁我唔知道佢閂咗個掣嘅目的係 20 乜嘢? 21 李澍桓大律師:咁你有冇問過另一間嘅消防承辦商點解佢哋要閂咗個掣? 22 黃健華先生:佢話因為要做個水缸,所以要閂咗個總掣。 23 李澍桓大律師:即係你有問? 24 黃健華先生:我有問。 25 李澍桓大律師:你問邊一個? 26 黃健華先生:鄭小姐。 27 李澍桓大律師:我個意思係--我個問題係有冇問過中華發展? 28 黃健華先生:冇,sorry,冇。。 29 李澍桓大律師:有冇問過宏業? 30 黃健華先生:冇。 31 李澍桓大律師:係。咁所以去到--即係去到你哋火警嘅時候,某個程度上就算開番個掣,某 32 部分嘅消防裝備係咪運作正常,你都唔知㗎喎? 33 黃健華先生:你講火警,26 號當日? 34 李澍桓大律師:26 號當日,因為你換完之後都未試吖嘛。 35 黃健華先生:係。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第五天 62 本謄本由Epiq 編製 李澍桓大律師:唔。主席,冇其他問題。 1 陸啟康法官:我諗今次有涉事方想問問題,係咪?咁我諗我都可以理解嘅,我批准你盤問。 2 許偉強資深大律師:唔該,唔該。黃先生,我係代表ISS,即係管理公司嘅。 3 黃健華先生:明白。 4 許偉強資深大律師:有幾個問題希望同你提出。首先麻煩你,我想睇一睇你為咗呢一次委員 5 會作嘅證人口供,麻煩你喺WS2/1545 頁,如果我哋去一去1546 頁,你嘅第6 6 段,剛才委員會大律師都有同你探討過,就住2025 年11 月19 號,當時你去到 7 宏福苑,希望作進一步嘅執修工程所發現嘅事項嘅。嗱,首先我想問一問呢,就係 8 喺你嘅口供入面提到,李俊賢就發現八座嘅呢一個總電掣,即係我哋所稱嗰個消防 9 泵房嗰個總電掣。 10 黃健華先生:加壓泵房。 11 許偉強資深大律師:係嘞,加壓泵房個總電掣。 12 黃健華先生:Okay。 13 許偉強資深大律師:已經被閂咗喇,呢個就係李俊賢佢發現先嘅? 14 黃健華先生:係。 15 許偉強資深大律師:然後佢就通知你嘅,當時? 16 黃健華先生:係。 17 許偉強資深大律師:你哋知道咗之後,有冇第一時都通知番Victory Fire 嘅其中一個老 18 闆,即係鍾先生,當時有冇通知佢㗎? 19 黃健華先生:我好似有打過電話畀佢嘅。 20 許偉強資深大律師:當時對於作為一個好似你咁樣有經驗同埋有資格去處理呢啲消防裝置工 21 程嘅技術人員嚟講,如果當時你發現到八座個消防泵總電掣都係閂咗,你覺唔覺得 22 詫異呀? 23 黃健華先生:覺得。 24 許偉強資深大律師:當時你同埋你公司有冇其他人係有討論過,需唔需要調查一下閂咗呢個 25 總掣個原因喺邊度呀? 26 黃健華先生:有。 27 許偉強資深大律師:當時有冇你或者係你公司啲人要希望調查一下幾時開始係咁樣嘅情況, 28 即係幾時開始呢個總掣係被閂咗嘅,有冇討論過呢個問題? 29 黃健華先生:唔好意思,問多次。 30 許偉強資深大律師:當時--11 月19 號發現呢個總掣被關上之後,你或者你公司任何同事有 31 冇去考慮要調查下呢一個總掣係大概幾時被關上,即係閂咗幾耐呢? 32 黃健華先生:唔--有冇考慮過?我哋有考慮過問阿鄭小姐知唔知? 33 許偉強資深大律師:唔。你自己就冇特別去問鄭小姐幾時開始閂咗呢個總掣嘅,同唔同意 34 呀? 35 黃健華先生:同意。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第五天 63 本謄本由Epiq 編製 許偉強資深大律師:唔。就住你個證人口供呢度所講,我哋睇下最後嗰四行,或者五行, 1 「其後」開始,「我立即向宏福苑管理處鄭小姐當面查詢,並得知宏福苑共八座大 2 廈當時正在進行大維修工程,其中包括維修水缸,故需要暫停消防,故需要暫停消 3 防系統,並已就此向消防處掛牌,即係向消防處填入消防裝置關閉通知書,下稱 4 『掛牌』」。我哋停一停呢度先,呢度你當時同--喺當日同鄭小姐嘅談話入面,你 5 呢度講出咗就話知道鄭小姐有個回應,就係話八座大廈就做緊大維修工程,包括維 6 修水缸,所以就需要暫停消防系統嘅。呢度你冇特別提到有關嗰個加壓泵房入面個 7 總電掣被關上呢個問題嘅,睇唔睇到? 8 黃健華先生:見到。 9 許偉強資深大律師:我想問一問你,你而家記番起,你當時同鄭小姐嘅對話入面有冇特別係 10 提到有關呢一個總電掣被關上嘅問題定係你... 11 黃健華先生:有。 12 許偉強資深大律師:好,唔該。我想問下你呢一度講及就係話需要暫停呢個消防系統,同埋 13 向消防處掛牌。你呢一度講緊11 月19 號,你有冇直接向鄭小姐問過有關掛牌嗰啲 14 文件,叫佢畀你睇? 15 黃健華先生:有。 16 許偉強資深大律師:但係我哋從你第6 段呢度就睇唔到你當時同鄭小姐係有查詢過或者問過 17 佢,要提供有關嘅文件喎,同唔同意? 18 黃健華先生:呢份文件。 19 許偉強資深大律師:呢個係你嘅證人供詞入面就冇特別提到你當天--好似你剛才咁講,係有 20 直接問過鄭小姐,叫佢提供有關呢啲掛牌嘅文件。 21 黃健華先生:呢度冇顯示出嚟。 22 許偉強資深大律師:如果我哋睇番你同呢一個委員會提供嘅口供入面,你呢一度提過嘅消防 23 系統,剛才我哋討論過,就冇特別去指出有關嗰個泵房,加壓泵房個總掣嗰個問題 24 嘅。呢個問題其實直至到你喺向警方所提出嘅口供入面,我哋先至見到你當時有提 25 出呢個問題。而家我哋睇下你同警方嗰邊嘅口供C1-2/1152、1153,喺第6 段呢 26 度你就咁樣講嘅,我哋如果睇下最尾嗰四行,呢度都係講緊11 月19 號所發生嘅 27 事,鄭小姐表示由於上址正進行大維修,當中包括維修消防水缸事宜,所以由負責 28 嘅另一間消防維修公司要求關閉消防泵總電掣,呢次就係如果我哋比較你剛才嗰份 29 口供,就喺呢一份入面你有提過呢個關閉消防泵總電掣呢件事,跟住你就「而我從 30 鄭小姐口中得知,該間消防維修公司亦都已經通知消防處,俗稱『掛牌』,同埋加 31 置咗呢個臨時嘅滅火筒,鄭小姐並冇提及邊一間公司,而我亦都冇追問,直至維修 32 工程完成之前,我再冇入過宏福苑去了解嗰個有關嘅事情嘞。」你呢度都有講到就 33 話,鄭小姐同你提過有另外一間公司做咗掛牌,你冇追問,所以我想問多你一次, 34 就係其實喺11 月19 號,你並冇向鄭小姐要求佢提供有關掛牌嘅文件,你同唔同 35 意? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第五天 64 本謄本由Epiq 編製 黃健華先生:唔同意。 1 許偉強資深大律師:另外就係,其實--因為鄭小姐遲啲都會嚟作供嘅,如果我同你講話,其 2 實當時你同鄭小姐嗰個交談入面,鄭小姐係冇特別提到有關消防泵房總電掣閂咗呢 3 個問題,你同唔同意? 4 黃健華先生:麻煩你講多次,唔好意思。 5 許偉強資深大律師:好。喺11 月19 號,你同鄭小姐嘅交談入面,鄭小姐其實係冇特別去提 6 到有關呢個消防泵總電掣被關上呢個情況,佢係冇提到嘅? 7 黃健華先生:佢有提過。 8 許偉強資深大律師:我最後有一個問題想問一問你,就係你作為一個合資格處理消防裝置嘅 9 技術人員,你應該都了解係咪消防處都會有一啲守則係需要遵守嘅,就住維修、檢 10 查呢啲咁嘅裝置,你知唔知有呢個咁嘅守則? 11 黃健華先生:係,知道。 12 許偉強資深大律師:或者我哋可以好快咁去睇一睇守則其中有一部分,呢個守則係B2 嘅 13 880,如果我哋--呢個就係有關檢查、測試同埋維修有關呢啲消防裝置系統嘅時候 14 嘅一個守則嚟嘅。呢個係2022 年9 月份嘅版本,如果我哋可以睇一睇第912 15 頁,呢個就係一個守則入面嘅附件4 ,附件4 就係關於一個測試入面嘅一個 16 (English Spoken)。 17 咁就入面如果我哋可以睇一睇第919 頁,3.8.2 呢度就有一個咁樣嘅要求 18 嘅,就係佢話“ (English Spoken )” ,即係我哋啱啱睇過嘅一啲裝置, 19 (English Spoken)同埋(English Spoken),咁佢就話如果你必須要喺一 20 啲未經授權嘅人士係唔可以進入嘅情況,同埋一啲未經授權嘅一啲行動都唔可以係 21 掂到或者去處理呢啲咁嘅(English Spoken )或者(English Spoken )。 22 (c)嗰度我哋見到就係話如果有呢啲咁嘅裝置,係需要(English Spoken), 23 即係話你要畀啲標籤佢嘅。咁(c)嗰度其中一個就係(English Spoken),就 24 係一個警告,就係「此電掣同時控制火警警報系統電源」。 25 我想帶一帶你去睇一睇一啲相片,就係喺B2,B2 嘅1902 頁先。呢個我哋剛 26 才委員會大律師都有向你展示過,呢個就係嗰個加壓泵房入面嘅總掣。如果我哋睇 27 一張清楚少少嘅圖,1910,睇到嘛?黃生。 28 黃健華先生:見到。 29 許偉強資深大律師:呢度我哋如果純粹喺個照片度睇,我哋就睇唔到有任何一啲警告嘅一個 30 顯示,就話即係呢一個電掣係同時控制呢一個火警電報系統電源嘅。首先我想問一 31 問你,就係我相信都唔會有爭議,就係呢一個總電掣都係會控制到呢個火警警報系 32 統嘅電源嘅,同意嘛? 33 黃健華先生:係,同意。 34 許偉強資深大律師:咁你剛才喺回答委員會大律師嘅問題嗰陣時都有講過,就係喺2025 年 35 3 月做呢個年檢之前,其實你都有參與過呢一個屋苑嘅年檢嘅一啲工作嘅? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第五天 65 本謄本由Epiq 編製 黃健華先生:有。 1 許偉強資深大律師:咁我想問一問你,就住呢一個總掣入面,冇附上或者冇一個標籤,入面 2 寫上係一個警告嘅一啲嘅字句,就講明呢一個電掣同時控制係火警警報系統嘅電 3 源,即係好似守則入面所要求嘅一個咁嘅標籤,你覺得冇一個咁嘅標籤,喺咁嘅情 4 況係咪唔係好適當?係咪應該有一個咁嘅標籤係較為安全? 5 黃健華先生:同意。 6 許偉強資深大律師:唔該,我冇其他問題。 7 李澍桓大律師:主席,唔好意思,就住剛剛嗰個問題,我想做一個好快嘅跟進啫。 8 就睇番呢度呢張相,剛才大律師都問過你,就冇一個標籤就似乎唔係咁恰當。 9 我頭先問漏咗,我自己,呢一個加壓泵房入面我哋見到有道門㗎嘛。 10 黃健華先生:你講個泵房門? 11 李澍桓大律師:嗄。 12 黃健華先生:Okay。 13 李澍桓大律師:嗰道門平時係應該鎖埋定係打開? 14 黃健華先生:鎖,上鎖。 15 李澍桓大律師:鎖匙喺邊個度? 16 黃健華先生:應該喺管理處嘅。 17 李澍桓大律師:如果你哋要進入去嘅時候,你要去邊度攞鎖匙先可以入到去? 18 黃健華先生:管理處借鎖匙。 19 李澍桓大律師:冇其他問題,主席。 20 陸啟康法官:或者(English Spoken),你有冇嘢想跟進? 21 許偉強資深大律師:我冇跟進嘅問題,唔該主席。 22 孫靖乾資深大律師:主席,我會有啲問題問黃先生。 23 主席:好。 24 孫靖乾資深大律師:黃先生,首先我就想睇番你嗰個證人供詞--黃先生,咁我就係代表政府 25 嘅大律師,咁你嗰個證人供詞裏面,喺WS2/1546 頁,咁頭先就係許資深大律師亦 26 都有問過。1546 頁嗰度,我亦都想去番呢個第6 段嘅最屘嗰四行,呢度係關於喺 27 10 月19 號,就係首先就係李先生就發現咗嗰個嘅總掣,即係話嗰個消防嘅加壓泵 28 房裏面嗰個總掣係八座大廈都閂晒,咁亦都通知咗你,你頭先都有咁講過,係咪? 29 黃健華先生:係。 30 許偉強資深大律師:然之後你就話你有親自去到宏福苑嘅現場去睇過,係咪? 31 黃健華先生:你嘅意思係睇嗰八座? 32 許偉強資深大律師:係。 33 黃健華先生:我冇睇過嗰八座。 34 許偉強資深大律師:你話你有--親自去到宏福苑嘅現場,喺19 號? 35 黃健華先生:係,我有去過宏福苑,19 號。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第五天 66 本謄本由Epiq 編製 許偉強資深大律師:咁你去到宏福苑嘅現場嘅時候,你係冇睇過嗰八座嘅加壓泵房? 1 黃健華先生:係。 2 許偉強資深大律師:咁你係直接地係做過啲咩嘢?你就係同呢個管理處鄭小姐? 3 黃健華先生:唔係,我--因為李俊賢先生同我講過佢八座大樓嘅消防泵總掣畀人閂咗,咁我 4 就打咗電話畀我老闆鍾生,跟住鍾生就叫我「喂,如果咁樣,不如就睇埋個上水系 5 統,即係個上水泵,係,咁我就走咗去睇咗其中三座嘅上水泵,發覺都係畀人閂咗 6 嘅,個電源掣。 7 孫靖乾資深大律師:唔嗯。 8 黃健華先生:係,跟住我就見到咁嘅情況,咁我就直接就再去搵咗鄭小姐。 9 孫靖乾資深大律師:頭先你都有講過,作為一個即係喺呢一方面,即係我哋叫(English 10 Spoken),即係關於一啲嘅消防設備嘅一個註冊嘅承辦商,你亦都係有呢一方面 11 嘅一個嘅即係叫做係專業嘅知識,係咪? 12 黃健華先生:可以咁講。 13 孫靖乾資深大律師:所以你都知道嗰個總掣閂咗嘅時候,係會令嗰個警鐘系統,即係嗰個 14 (English Spoken)都會係關閉嘅? 15 黃健華先生:係。 16 孫靖乾資深大律師:咁你就--根據你呢個證供,你就係話你同咗管理處嘅鄭小姐去查詢,咁 17 就知道當時嗰八座大廈都喺度進行緊一個大廈嘅維修工程,就包括係呢個維修個水 18 缸嘅,係咪? 19 黃健華先生:係。 20 孫靖乾資深大律師:咁首先你應該知道喺當日嚟講,其實呢一個宏泰其實就正正係負責就係 21 針對係包括就係呢個警鐘嘅系統,係有一啲嘅工程或者有一啲嘅替換工程去做,係 22 咪? 23 黃健華先生:係。 24 孫靖乾資深大律師:係,咁如果係咁,你有冇去同其他呢一個宏泰嘅同事去傾過,就係話如 25 果係要去維修水缸嘅話,其實照道理係唔需要係去關閉嗰個總掣或者唔需要去關閉 26 咗嗰個嘅警鐘系統嘅呢? 27 黃健華先生:我同我老闆傾過,鍾生。 28 孫靖乾資深大律師:你同你老闆傾過,就係話即係如果用,如果係維修個水缸,係正常嚟講 29 應該唔需要去閂咗一個總掣,令到嗰個警鐘系統都係運作唔到,係咪? 30 黃健華先生:係。 31 孫靖乾資深大律師:咁我想請問咁你同你個老闆傾過之後,咁你哋係當日係--可唔可以講一 32 講畀我哋聽嗰個討論嘅內容先? 33 黃健華先生:我同老闆,係咪? 34 孫靖乾資深大律師:係,冇錯。 35 黃健華先生:咁就當我知道李俊賢發覺嗰八座個消防總掣畀人閂咗,跟住就我就亦都走去睇 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第五天 67 本謄本由Epiq 編製 咗個上水--其中三座嘅上水泵個電掣都係畀人閂咗,咁就同老闆溝通過之後就話, 1 正常情況下唔應該個總掣畀人閂嘅,淨係可以閂咗嗰兩個(English 2 Spoken),即係消防泵嗰兩個(English Spoken)。 3 孫靖乾資深大律師:係。 4 黃健華先生:咁發覺好似係有啲問題,咁就老闆就叫我去搵鄭小姐,問下佢知唔知道係呢啲 5 系統畀人閂晒咁樣。 6 孫靖乾資深大律師:既然係咁,你哋都傾咗,知道係有問題,亦都問鄭小姐,咁鄭小姐--咁 7 你有冇--問鄭小姐嘅時候,有冇問點解如果係只係做一個維修呢個水箱嗰個--消防 8 水箱個工程,係需要閂個總掣呢? 9 黃健華先生:冇。 10 孫靖乾資深大律師:又有冇問其實係邊一個嘅承建商去負責處理嗰個水箱嘅工程? 11 黃健華先生:我有問過佢係咪搵個消防承辦商去閂嘅。 12 孫靖乾資深大律師:咁你問佢有冇搵個消防承辦商去閂,佢就話畀你知「有」? 13 黃健華先生:係。 14 孫靖乾資深大律師:但係你就冇問嗰個承辦商係邊一位? 15 黃健華先生:冇。 16 孫靖乾資深大律師:係。當時既然你哋宏泰都覺得呢個係有問題,咁有冇啲咩嘢原因,你哋 17 唔會去搵嗰個承辦商去問一問,點解只係進行一個水箱嘅工程,係需要熄到個--閂 18 到個總掣? 19 黃健華先生:因為我當時得知鄭小姐同我講佢哋搵咗一間承辦商去閂,咁我哋就覺得佢搵得 20 嗰個承辦商去閂,咁佢應該知道自己閂咗啲乜嘢,咁我就冇再追問落去。 21 孫靖乾資深大律師:但係即使即係話你知道係唔係淨係閂咗嗰個(English Spoken), 22 係閂埋個總掣,你就冇再進一步去問佢? 23 黃健華先生:係。 24 孫靖乾資深大律師:咁另一方面,就係你哋作為一個嘅--即係都係一個註冊嘅消防裝備嗰個 25 承辦商,咁喺當時嚟講,如果唔係有其他人閂咗嗰個總掣嘅時候,其實你哋都係需 26 要閂嗰個總掣去替換嗰個叫做嗰個(English Spoken),係咪?即係嗰個警鐘 27 系統裏面其中一個玻璃,係咪? 28 黃健華先生:麻煩可唔可以再問多次? 29 孫靖乾資深大律師:當時你亦都有講過你係要去替換嗰個警鐘系統裏面嗰個玻璃,即係嗰個 30 警鐘裏面有嗰個扲手個玻璃嗰部分。 31 黃健華先生:係。 32 孫靖乾資深大律師:係,所以如果喺嗰個情況嚟講,就係需要去閂嗰個總掣,但係係閂一個 33 好短嘅時間。 34 黃健華先生:係。 35 孫靖乾資深大律師:咁由於係閂一個好短嘅時間,就根據有關嘅一啲嘅規定,你哋當時如果 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第五天 68 本謄本由Epiq 編製 係撳好短嘅時間,如果唔超過二十四小時,或者唔係過夜嘅時候,就唔需要去入嗰 1 個(English Spoken)? 2 黃健華先生:係。 3 孫靖乾資深大律師:係,即係亦都唔需要去掛牌? 4 黃健華先生:係。 5 孫靖乾資深大律師:係。但係你都知道係當時係講個情況就係已經發現嗰個總掣係閂咗? 6 黃健華先生:係。 7 孫靖乾資深大律師:而且喺基於當時嘅情況,你亦都會知道其實應該閂咗會係即係超過呢個 8 二十四小時或者係過夜,係咪? 9 黃健華先生:當時我哋唔知佢幾時畀人閂嘅。 10 孫靖乾資深大律師:你當時唔知佢幾時畀人閂,但係你知道你仲有啲嘅--譬如話頭先測試嗰 11 個警鐘系統呢個未做,你知道嘅? 12 黃健華先生:係。 13 孫靖乾資深大律師:咁你亦都知道,即係如果係咁,你係--嘅工程你係未完成嘅? 14 黃健華先生:係。 15 孫靖乾資深大律師:如果你唔去將嗰個嘅總掣開番嘅時候,咁其實個總掣就會繼續係持--處 16 於一個關閉嘅狀態? 17 黃健華先生:係。 18 孫靖乾資深大律師:係。咁呢個亦都將會係超過二十四小時,即係可能係過咗19 號之後? 19 黃健華先生:係。 20 孫靖乾資深大律師:有冇諗過喺嗰陣時候係需要向呢個消防處係入番一個嘅(English 21 Spoken),話畀佢知其實一個咁重要嘅警鐘系統原來係會係多過二十四小時或者 22 過夜係會持續地係處於一個關閉嘅狀態? 23 黃健華先生:冇諗過會入嘅。 24 孫靖乾資深大律師:係。咁而最後就我想問一問,頭先你有講過就話有問鄭小姐去攞嗰個嘅 25 (English Spoken),即係你話係即係有,咁佢當時就畀唔到文件畀你? 26 黃健華先生:係。 27 孫靖乾資深大律師:咁有冇諗過直接問佢究竟嗰個有關嘅嗰個另一個嘅消防嘅註冊裝置嘅承 28 辦商係邊一位,咁從而可以聯絡佢哋,去睇下個(English Spoken)? 29 黃健華先生:當時冇考慮過要問另外一間承辦商攞嘅。 30 孫靖乾資深大律師:好,唔該晒主席、兩位委員。 31 陸啟康法官:唔該,仲有冇其他想跟進? 32 林樂夫大律師:主席,我係代表Victory Fire 嘅,我淨係得兩個問題想覆問嘅,係。 33 係,黃生,第一個問題就係關於你畀兩份口供嘅時序嘅。第一個就麻煩你睇下C1- 34 2 警察嘅口供,係第1152 頁嘅,係,我哋去番頂嗰度,係嘞,咁我哋會見到喺個 35 螢光幕較底嘅位置,呢個係你嘅證人口供,係畀員警嘅,係咪? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第五天 69 本謄本由Epiq 編製 黃健華先生:係。 1 林樂夫大律師:咁日期我哋見到2025 年12 月1 號,見唔見到? 2 黃健華先生:見到。 3 林樂夫大律師:係,咁我哋對比下呢,你為咗呢一個委員會嘅證人陳述書,咁我哋去睇係 4 WS2 嘅1545 頁,我哋見到第一頁有你嘅名,係咪? 5 黃健華先生:見到。 6 林樂夫大律師:咁我哋去到第1547 頁,個底個位置,簽名嘅位,我哋見到為咗呢個委員會 7 證人口供就係2026 年2 月25 號,係咪? 8 黃健華先生:係。 9 林樂夫大律師:咁即係我哋會見到日子嘅對比,就係你做咗員警證人口供先嘅,係咪? 10 黃健華先生:係。 11 林樂夫大律師:即係我哋會見到日子嗰度,就係你做咗個警察嘅證人口供先嘅,係咪? 12 黃健華先生:係。 13 林樂夫大律師:呢個第一個嘅問題。第二個問題就係啱啱政府嘅孫資深大律師就問你,你係 14 有冇諗過係用一個SDN 通知消防嘅? 15 黃健華先生:冇諗過。 16 林樂夫大律師:係嘞,點解? 17 黃健華先生:因為個掣唔係我哋閂,所以我哋唔可以入個SDN,因為SDN 入面係要填關閉日 18 期,咁我哋唔知道個關閉日期,我哋係填唔到個資料,所以畀唔到消防處嘅。 19 林樂夫大律師:唔該晒。主席,我冇其他問題,唔該。 20 陸啟康法官:仲有冇其他涉事方想提問?如果冇嘅,唔該晒你黃先生,你可以離開。 21 黃健華先生:Thank you。 22

23 16 時14 分宏泰消防工程有限公司電工證人黃健華先生作供完畢 24 16 時14 分宏泰消防工程有限公司董事及工程師證人鍾傑文先生開始作供 25

26 李澍桓大律師:主席,為咗善用時間,下一位係鍾傑文先生。 27 陸啟康法官:好。 28 李澍桓大律師:鍾生,首先麻煩你喺作供之前先企起身,喺你面前有一張聲明詞嘅,就麻煩 29 你讀出嚟。 30 鍾傑文先生:本人鍾傑文聲明,本人所作的證供盡本人所知、所悉及所信,均屬真實。 31 李澍桓大律師:係,請坐。我哋先搞清楚個時序,就你因應今次宏福苑大火事件入面,你曾 32 經向警方就提供咗一份口供。 33 鍾傑文先生:冇錯嘅。 34 李澍桓大律師:個時間就係2025 年12 月1 號嘅。 35 鍾傑文先生:係嘅。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第五天 70 本謄本由Epiq 編製 李澍桓大律師:咁亦都喺事後因應呢個獨立委員會嘅要求,你就透過律師呈交咗一個你自己 1 嘅書面口供,咁個時間就係2026 年2 月25 號嘅,係咪? 2 鍾傑文先生:正確。 3 李澍桓大律師:我相信兩份口供入面你所講--提供嘅資料都係以你所知係真實、準確,係 4 咪? 5 鍾傑文先生:冇錯,冇錯。 6 李澍桓大律師:好快講一講你個背景,我哋知道你就係宏泰消防工程有限公司嘅一個董事, 7 係咪? 8 鍾傑文先生:冇錯。 9 李澍桓大律師:你亦都係一個自己本身喺個教育上面係有一個電機工程系嘅博士嘅學歷,係 10 咪? 11 鍾傑文先生:冇錯。 12 李澍桓大律師:喺你呢一間公司,即係宏泰消防,你就大概係2010 年加入? 13 鍾傑文先生:冇錯。 14 李澍桓大律師:就喺12 年左右,係唔係應該--一兩年之後就正式做咗董事? 15 鍾傑文先生:13 年嘅3 月。 16 李澍桓大律師:13 年? 17 鍾傑文先生:冇錯。 18 李澍桓大律師:咁除咗日常處理即係實際一啲消防裝備工程之外,我相信你嘅工作亦都要包 19 埋就係去應對客戶,亦都就住某一啲啲可能要求你哋做嘅工程就做一啲報價咁樣嘅 20 工作嘅? 21 鍾傑文先生:冇錯嘅。 22 李澍桓大律師:剛才都講過,16 年開始,其實宏泰消防就開始替宏福苑做呢個裝備嘅年檢, 23 一直去到2025 年,即係除咗2024 年一年你哋應該冇做嘅? 24 鍾傑文先生:冇錯。 25 李澍桓大律師:有冇乜嘢原因,點解2024 年你哋冇做㗎? 26 鍾傑文先生:其實就2024 年我哋畀咗個報價佢,但係就我冇收到佢簽返嚟,直到就2025 27 年3 月嘅時候,林文恩工程主任就send 咗呢一份簽回嘅報價畀我,就話原來24 28 年就批咗畀我哋,我話「我冇見過喎,我唔認㗎。」跟住後屘應該4 號或者5 號 29 喥,黎經理,黎永利就打畀我,就同我講話「哎吔,個委員會批咗㗎嘞」點樣點 30 樣,咁想我哋做年檢。 31 李澍桓大律師:咁但係就斬一斬斷你。咁到最後,其實2024 年宏泰消防有冇做? 32 鍾傑文先生:冇做過嘅。 33 李澍桓大律師:冇做到。就係直至到2025 年我哋知道3 月嘅時候就做番嗰個年檢? 34 鍾傑文先生:冇錯,冇錯。 35 李澍桓大律師:我想你--因為頭先嗰個年檢嘅工作,消防裝備,你個同事黃生都好仔細畀咗 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第五天 71 本謄本由Epiq 編製 證供我哋,我哋知道喺做完年檢嘅時候,有啲所謂叫做核對表,就要做咗交畀嘅? 1 鍾傑文先生:係,冇錯。 2 李澍桓大律師:你就根據呢啲年檢嘅核對表,即係佢哋年檢嘅一啲結果,你就要做另一份文 3 件就叫做F.S.251 嘅證書嘅,係咪? 4 鍾傑文先生:冇錯。 5 李澍桓大律師:我想你而家睇一睇呢個R1 嘅文件冊第657 頁,呢度我哋見到就係其中一張 6 所謂叫做F.S.251 嘅一個表格,係咪? 7 鍾傑文先生:冇錯。 8 李澍桓大律師:喺上面我哋見到呢一張就係關於A 座宏仁閣嘅一個證書? 9 鍾傑文先生:係呀。 10 李澍桓大律師:我哋跟住喺入面見到有三個方格,就有三部分,第一部分就係話你哋年檢嘅 11 事項嘅,咁有啲代號,有啲裝置嘅類型,你可唔可以好快講一講其實第一格呢度想 12 表達啲咩? 13 鍾傑文先生:第一格嗰度就係只可以年檢嘅時候填,年檢完之後,你要填番嗰個系統類型, 14 同埋你檢查嘅位置,同埋狀況評述。如果完全冇問題,我哋就會寫「(English 15 Spoken)」,咁如果有問題就會括弧加埋「(English Spoken)」,咁裏面 16 會寫番就係完成日期,24 年--3 月2025 年,下次到期嘅檢查日期。 17 李澍桓大律師:所以我哋舉個例,譬如你第一個格見到代號就係“ 11 ",裝置類型就係 18 (English Spoken)。 19 鍾傑文先生:冇錯。 20 李澍桓大律師:跟住嗰個情況就係全座位置,你嘅講法就係話都符合消防條例,不過除咗有 21 有一啲喺第三部註明嘅一啲瑕疵或者一啲損毀,咁嗰個就係修理㗎嘞? 22 鍾傑文先生:冇錯。 23 李澍桓大律師:中間第二部分,裝置改裝、修理、檢查工作,呢個我見係留白咗寫「冇」 24 嘅,係乜嘢意思? 25 鍾傑文先生:呢一個就係話你做呢一單工程,如果有啲乜嘢維修,乜嘢做完就要填呢個 26 (English Spoken),我哋行內就叫(English Spoken)。 27 李澍桓大律師:第三部分,損壞事項,係咪就係要顧名思義,將你嗰座見到有損壞咗嘅一啲 28 零件裝備就要喺呢度列明? 29 鍾傑文先生:冇錯。 30 李澍桓大律師:以你作為一個註冊嘅持牌人士,即係就住呢個消防裝備,有冇講話第三部分 31 呢度要幾耐--即係有冇法例上或者消防處有冇一啲限時要你幾時做完㗎? 32 鍾傑文先生:其實消防處就要儘快嘅,儘快到基本上係越快越好嘅,如果唔係以我所知,就 33 違反95 章B 咁樣。 34 李澍桓大律師:但係喺呢個案件入面,我哋起碼知道你25 年3 月最遲26 號就做完年檢, 35 而其實開始去做執修就2025 年10 月開始做嘅? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第五天 72 本謄本由Epiq 編製 鍾傑文先生:係,冇錯。 1 李澍桓大律師:咁呢一個相差咗有六七個月時間,呢度係一個可接受,定還是以你所知係唔 2 合規矩嘅一個做法? 3 鍾傑文先生:唔理想嘅,不過理解,即係我哋知道就好多都係會咁,因為大廈可能招標所有 4 嘢咁樣囉。 5 李澍桓大律師:另一個議題,就想問一問你水缸嘅問題。 6 鍾傑文先生:係。 7 李澍桓大律師:我哋知道天面有個叫做消防水缸嘅? 8 鍾傑文先生:冇錯。 9 李澍桓大律師:如果呢個消防水缸假設係結構上有問題,唔符合消防處嘅一啲裝備嘅規定, 10 喺呢張表格上面,你需唔需要註明? 11 鍾傑文先生:需要。 12 李澍桓大律師:咁如果我睇過咁多張表格都冇睇個水缸有問題,我可唔可以理解就係個年檢 13 嘅結果,就係個水缸冇嘢需要執修? 14 鍾傑文先生:可以。 15 李澍桓大律師:呢張其實同其他嘅十幾張251 呢張表格,我如果冇錯嘅話,個日期我哋喺右 16 下角睇到係2025 年3 月31 日嘅,係咪? 17 鍾傑文先生:冇錯。 18 李澍桓大律師:咁就上面我見到有鍾生你嘅簽名同埋公司蓋印? 19 鍾傑文先生:冇錯。 20 李澍桓大律師:呢張文件跟住會點要處理?交去邊度? 21 鍾傑文先生:我哋會副本寄畀消防處。 22 李澍桓大律師:係。 23 鍾傑文先生:十四日內。 24 李澍桓大律師:消防處有冇邊一個特定部門定係當區嘅消防局去收嘅? 25 鍾傑文先生:冇嘅,佢哋一概都會寄去消防總處,尖沙咀嗰個,用郵寄嘅方法。 26 李澍桓大律師:Okay,我哋記住2025 年3 月31 號。另外,我想有一張文件唔係你做嘅, 27 但係我都想你睇一睇嘅。就係如果我哋睇一間叫做--你有聽過一間叫做中華發展嘅 28 公司,係咪? 29 鍾傑文先生:係。 30 李澍桓大律師:想你睇番就係佢哋有一啲所謂叫(English Spoken ),我想你睇一睇 31 嘅。 32 鍾傑文先生:可以。 33 李澍桓大律師:喺同樣都係R1 嘅第62 頁,咁你見到呢一張就叫做2025 年4 月7 號,左 34 上角,如果唔係我哋放大少少。跟住我哋見到呢一張就係一個消防裝置關閉通知書 35 嘅。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第五天 73 本謄本由Epiq 編製 鍾傑文先生:冇錯。 1 李澍桓大律師:上面講咗其中宏志閣,然之後跟住佢就有講需要某一啲裝置就閂超過二十四 2 個小時,就其中譬如以呢張為例,我哋見到嗰格就剔咗消防栓/喉轆系統嘅。 3 鍾傑文先生:冇錯。 4 李澍桓大律師:咁我哋喺呢件案件入面,其實我哋都知道,即係宏福苑呢個個案入面呢,其 5 實呢啲咁樣嘅裝置嘅關閉通知書就一路由呢一間中華發展向消防處稟報,就話要延 6 期。 7 鍾傑文先生:冇錯。 8 李澍桓大律師:即使去到11 月26 號大火當日,其實都仲係處於一個延期嘅狀態嘅。 9 鍾傑文先生:係。 10 李澍桓大律師:呢張通知書就4 月7 號由另一間承辦商入嘅,你嗰嗰張251 就喺一個禮拜 11 前,3 月31 號就寄出嘅? 12 鍾傑文先生:冇錯。 13 李澍桓大律師:4 月7 號到11 月26 號中間嘅呢段時間,消防處有冇接觸過你關於點解要 14 閂咗個消防裝備? 15 鍾傑文先生:冇。 16 李澍桓大律師:有冇人懷疑過消防處話你嗰個年檢係咪有問題? 17 鍾傑文先生:冇。 18 李澍桓大律師:點解而家要維修咁耐? 19 鍾傑文先生:冇。 20 李澍桓大律師:喺中華發展又好或者置邦又好,當佢哋要入呢張裝置關閉通知書嘅時候,佢 21 哋有冇通知你話「我哋要做呢樣嘢」? 22 鍾傑文先生:冇。 23 李澍桓大律師:我哋知道第一部分嘅執修工作就喺2025 年10 月先由你做水工嘅同事先進 24 行,係咪? 25 鍾傑文先生:冇錯,14、16。 26 李澍桓大律師:做水喉工嘅同事,就唔係頭先嗰位黃先生負責嘅? 27 鍾傑文先生:冇錯。 28 李澍桓大律師:其中一樣嘢佢要換嗰啲所謂頭先我哋見到一啲噴嘴、喉轆、閘掣嗰啲咁樣嘅 29 工作,係咪? 30 鍾傑文先生:冇錯。 31 李澍桓大律師:睇下我嘅理解啱唔啱,要做呢個工程嘅話,首先第一,就要將天面嗰個消防 32 缸嗰個出水掣就閂咗佢先嘅? 33 鍾傑文先生:正確。 34 李澍桓大律師:因為你可能跟住就要開下面嗰啲喉轆嚟做更換吖嘛? 35 鍾傑文先生:冇錯。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第五天 74 本謄本由Epiq 編製 李澍桓大律師:閂咗個水箱嘅目的就係等佢唔好有水出嚟? 1 鍾傑文先生:冇錯。 2 李澍桓大律師:喺當日,即係10 月份嘅時候,當你嘅同事去到原本做呢啲水喉工程嘅時 3 候,係咪已經告知咗你就話個水缸嗰個出水嗰度係冇水出? 4 鍾傑文先生:係,五點幾嘅時候。 5 李澍桓大律師:佢哋有冇話畀你知或者你知唔知點解個水缸冇水? 6 鍾傑文先生:有,佢有話畀我聽。 7 李澍桓大律師:邊個話畀你知? 8 鍾傑文先生:我嘅伙計。 9 李澍桓大律師:邊位? 10 鍾傑文先生:唐小明(譯音)或者唐慶倫(譯音)。 11 李澍桓大律師:佢同你講乜嘢? 12 鍾傑文先生:佢問我--佢話個水缸嗰度冇水,我話「吓,點解呀?」佢話佢問過現場,咁就 13 做緊水缸大維修,咁所以就--跟住「有冇掛牌呀?」咁問佢,有問過佢有冇掛牌, 14 「有」,我話“okay"。 15 李澍桓大律師:你講「掛牌」意思就即係話入SDN? 16 鍾傑文先生:入SDN,係嘞。 17 李澍桓大律師:你嘅同事我哋知道佢就照做呢啲維修,更換部件嘅呢啲工作嘅? 18 鍾傑文先生:係。 19 李澍桓大律師:同唔同意更換係一個程序,其實之後要做檢測,都係一個重要嘅步驟嚟嘅? 20 鍾傑文先生:絶對重要,最重要嘅步驟。 21 李澍桓大律師:而喺呢個水喉嘅工序上面呢,佢換完啲部件,由於水缸冇水,你哋或者你嘅 22 同事,即係宏泰消防嘅同事係冇就呢啲裝備做到測試嘅? 23 鍾傑文先生:係,冇錯。 24 李澍桓大律師:如果我嘅講法話所以呢一部分嘅工作其實係未做完嘅? 25 鍾傑文先生:冇錯。 26 李澍桓大律師:公道吖嘛? 27 鍾傑文先生:公道,我哋未出F.S.251 作實㗎嘛。 28 李澍桓大律師:主席,我留意到個時間,我會跳落去下一個部分,我唔知我哋係咪一個適當 29 嘅時間? 30 陸啟康法官:都會有啲時間,係咪? 31 李澍桓大律師:有啲時間,可能有十至十五分鐘喥。 32 陸啟康法官:Okay。咁我諗如果係咁,我哋今日就完,好唔好?咁我哋押後到聽日10 點鐘 33 繼續我哋嘅聽證會。 34 李澍桓大律師:鍾先生,麻煩你明天早上再返嚟。 35 鍾傑文先生:可以,冇問題。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第五天 75 本謄本由Epiq 編製 陸啟康法官:Okay,唔該。 1

2 16 時29 分聆訊押後 3 (聆訊將於2026 年3 月31 日10 時00 分繼續) 4

FD06245 | 2025_港澳台_香港宏福苑大火_Transcript-(Chinese)_20260331.pdf

分类:06_境外及港澳台调查报告 | 年份:2025 | 地域:香港 | 严重程度: | 场所: | 起火原因: | 来源格式:pdf

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第六天

本謄本由Epiq 編製

就大埔宏福苑火災成立的獨立委員會

聽證會

高等法院原訟法庭陸啟康法官 陳健波議員 歐陽伯權博士

日期:

第六天 2026 年3 月31 日

杜淦堃資深大律師, 俞匡庭大律師, 李澍桓大律師, 馮天榮大律師, 張天風大律師及李俊軒大律師代表獨立委員會

許偉強資深大律師, 何卓衡大律師及楊志聰大律師代表置邦興業有限公司

孫靖乾資深大律師,卓元暢大律師及劉逸冲大律師代表政府

林樂夫大律師代表宏泰消防工程有限公司

律政司代表

呂世杰資深大律師及阮文躍大律師代表市區重建局

柯愷欣大律師代表宏福苑業主立案法團第十二屆管理委員會

譚俊傑大律師代表宏福苑居民

競爭事務委員會代表

文國灝大律師代表合安管理有限公司

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第六天

1 本謄本由Epiq 編製

以下內容乃聆訊數碼錄音謄本 1

2 10 時00 分聆訊恢復 3

4 10 時00 分宏泰消防工程有限公司董事及工程師證人鍾傑文先生恢復作供 5

6 陸啟康法官:請大律師。 7 李澍桓大律師:今日鍾傑文先生會繼續作供。 8 陸啟康法官:係,唔該,鍾生。 9 李澍桓大律師:鍾生,琴日喺休會作結,啱啱之前呢就講緊,你都好公道咁樣同意咗其實你 10 哋嘅工作未做完,因為未做個測試。 11 鍾傑文先生:冇錯。 12 李澍桓大律師:當然,我都聽到你有補咗一句就話,所以你就冇出嗰個滿意紙,即嗰個251 13 嘅。 14 鍾傑文先生:冇錯。 15 李澍桓大律師:呢句我聽到嘅。我一陣間我會返轉頭再去同你討論呢一個議題。 16 鍾傑文先生:好嘅。 17 李澍桓大律師:不過,喺我未再同你講下一個議題之前呢,咁我同事都提醒咗我喇,可能有 18 兩個議題,啲涉事方可能係或者有個潛在對你哋一啲指控,我覺得都應該值得去同 19 你探討一下,睇你有咩嘢回應嘅。第一個我想你討論或者睇下有冇回應嘅地方喇, 20 就關於火警警報系統(English Spoken)嘅一啲年檢或者嗰個裝備嘅問題嘅。 21 我第一樣嘢想你睇嘅就係第三份,由姜世明先生,姜先生係就係消防處助理處長, 22 佢應該係主管呢一個牌照同埋證書組嘅。我想你睇一睇佢嗰個口供,第三份口供 23 呢,其中6.1 到6.2 嗰個段落。一陣間我同你講。 24 陸啟康法官:代表政府孫大律師,你同意佢可以--你想你問抑或佢問呢? 25 孫靖乾資深大律師:係,主席、兩位委員,我諗其實我諗我哋係唔介意獨立委員會嘅代表大 26 律師去問,因為其實我哋都係想尋求個真相,所以如果李大律師問完之後,如果我 27 哋覺得有需要補充,當然,我哋會補充嘅。 28 陸啟康法官:多謝你嘅澄清,請繼續。 29 李澍桓大律師:應該係6.1、6.2,咁嗰度呢就有--英文你可以睇得明吖嘛?鍾生。 30 鍾傑文先生:我想而家睇一睇,得唔得呀? 31 李澍桓大律師:好,你慢慢睇。 32 鍾傑文先生:(English Spoken)睇得明第6.1 嘅。 33 李澍桓大律師:係,你睇埋6.2 段。 34

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第六天

2 本謄本由Epiq 編製 鍾傑文先生:睇得明。 1 李澍桓大律師:為咗謄本都有個記錄,我用中文我嘅意解呢,關於呢兩段,消防處嘅姜助理 2 處長基本上佢個講法就係話呢個火警警報系統其實係包含好多嘢,當然由佢電源一 3 路到每一層嘅警鐘個扲手,即係嗰個啟動掣呢,其實都係由一個所謂電路咁樣去連 4 結起嚟嘅。 5 鍾傑文先生:唔嗯。 6 李澍桓大律師:咁所以中間簡單啲嚟講,就住連結呢一個成個警報系統嘅嗰啲電線,其實都 7 屬於一個緊要嘅部分嚟嘅。 8 鍾傑文先生:絕對。 9 李澍桓大律師:因為如果根據佢所講,一陣間我會再畀埋有關嘅作業首則你睇,似乎佢就話 10 喺6.2 段之後呢,佢哋火災之後去做咗個調查,咁就發覺呢,基本上所有嘅警報系 11 統,除咗宏志閣之外,都係因為呢一個火災引致嘅熱力而損毀咗呢個警報系統嘅呢 12 一啲電線嘅? 13 鍾傑文先生:冇錯。 14 李澍桓大律師:而似乎佢嘅講法就係不合規嘅。 15 鍾傑文先生:唔嗯。 16 李澍桓大律師:第二個文件我想畀你睇嘅呢,就係我頭先講到嘅一個作業守則,就係由消防 17 處提供嘅。我哋就可以睇應該係B/882 頁開始,咁如果我哋去--應該,你等一等 18 我睇番嗰個段落,應該係888 頁2.15,同樣都係英文嘅,我畀少少時間你去睇。 19 鍾傑文先生:好。 20 李澍桓大律師:呢度講緊嘅就係關於電線上面,喺消防裝備上面,電線上面一啲抗火嘅一個 21 作業守則嚟嘅。 22 鍾傑文先生:幾多年出㗎?想問呢一份。 23 李澍桓大律師:2022,應該係。 24 鍾傑文先生:Okay。我係睇2.15 項(i)同埋(ii),即係1、2 項咁樣? 25 李澍桓大律師:係,1、2 項。 26 鍾傑文先生:Okay,okay。 27 李澍桓大律師:同樣地,等謄本記錄,中文意釋我嘅理解就係話其實喺呢度就講緊嗰個抗火 28 嘅一個情況。 29 鍾傑文先生:唔嗯。 30 李澍桓大律師:佢就話其實呢,根據羅馬數字I 嗰個段落,佢就話其實呢啲電線被視為呢一 31 個消防裝備嘅一部分嚟嘅,所以必須要有一啲所謂合格嘅證書符合某一啲嘅標準 32 嘅。咁而喺羅馬數字II ,關於(English Spoken )即係檢查、(English 33 Spoken)測試、(English Spoken)維修、保養嘅呢個情況之下呢,咁佢就 34 話呢一啲抗火嘅所謂電線呢,都會被視為呢個消防裝備一個重要嘅核心嘅一部分嚟 35 嘅。所以呢啲電線都需要去檢查,去保養,喺一個安全同埋滿意嘅情況。而呢個檢 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第六天

3 本謄本由Epiq 編製 查呢一個保養呢,係必須要由一個註冊嘅消防裝備承辦商去做嘅,所以簡單啲嚟講 1 就係話,我相信如果根據呢一個講法呢,年檢嘅時候就應該要驗埋啲電線嘅。呢個 2 係咪你嘅理解? 3 鍾傑文先生:我可唔可以--咁樣講嘅,我同一個問題我都問過消防處嘅,因為消防處喺呢幾 4 年就出咗個... 5 李澍桓大律師:你唔好答我住,因為我對你公道,... 6 鍾傑文先生:係。 7 李澍桓大律師:...我有第三套文件想畀你睇嘅。 8 鍾傑文先生:好嘅。 9 李澍桓大律師:好唔好呀?你睇埋呢套文件,你然之後先至一次過去解釋畀我哋知。 10 鍾傑文先生:好呀。 11 李澍桓大律師:我就想你第一個關於消防警鐘系統嘅一個年檢嘅核對表。 12 鍾傑文先生:唔嗯。 13 李澍桓大律師:喺R1 呢個Bundle 入面呢,呢個文件冊呢,我諗我哋可以睇537 呢一頁, 14 可以做一個例子嘅,喺你前面嘅屏幕都會睇到㗎嘞。頂嗰度我哋見到呢個係關於火 15 警警報系統一個年檢嘅核對表喇。 16 鍾傑文先生:唔嗯。 17 李澍桓大律師:咁呢啲類似嘅核對表,我哋之前都睇過,我想先問清楚,我嘅理解,呢張核 18 對表係由消防處去設定入面嘅內容㗎嘛,係咪呀? 19 鍾傑文先生:冇錯。 20 李澍桓大律師:咁所以唔係話你想寫啲乜喺入面就寫啲乜嘅? 21 鍾傑文先生:冇錯。 22 李澍桓大律師:你去交呢張251 嘅時候,需唔需要將呢張核對表都一併交畀消防處? 23 鍾傑文先生:唔需要,但係佢哋要求我哋就要keep 七年嘅。 24 李澍桓大律師:係。 25 鍾傑文先生:係必須嘅。 26 李澍桓大律師:即係佢哋隨時會有機會抽查睇呢個核對表嘅? 27 鍾傑文先生:唔,冇錯。 28 李澍桓大律師:好嘞,我哋見到關537 頁嘅呢一張違例呢,我哋見到就係關於宏仁閣A 座, 29 2025 年3 月24 號嗰個年檢嘅嘅情況嘅。 30 鍾傑文先生:唔嗯,係。 31 李澍桓大律師:如果我想你揭去538 頁,537 頁我哋見到第二部分就係講緊嗰個手動嘅啟動 32 裝置嘅一啲檢查項目。 33 鍾傑文先生:唔嗯。 34 李澍桓大律師:如果揭去538 頁延續呢一個第二項嘅一個列表,喺最褸屘一欄我哋就見到有 35 電線、電線管、線槽、線架等等。然之後個剔就剔咗一個「是」嘅。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第六天

4 本謄本由Epiq 編製 鍾傑文先生:冇錯。 1 李澍桓大律師:當然,我知道就唔係你落去做年檢,係咪呀? 2 鍾傑文先生:唔係我落去做年檢。 3 李澍桓大律師:咁但係呢一張,根據呢一張文件嘅紀錄似乎就係有檢驗過關於手動啟動裝 4 置,即係扲手,嗰個電線呢度就寫咗係符合個電線一啲要求嘅。 5 鍾傑文先生:佢--我嘅理解,喺呢一度佢話「電線及電線管、線槽、線架、疏篩,完好並裝 6 穩,接駁妥當且沒有過度耗損」。 7 李澍桓大律師:耗損。 8 鍾傑文先生:我需唔需要再回應落去? 9 李澍桓大律師:我不如畀你睇埋另外兩度?你一次過。 10 鍾傑文先生:因為我覺得呢... 11 李澍桓大律師:我仲有兩度,呢個表格我等你一次過睇完,... 12 鍾傑文先生:好呀。 13 李澍桓大律師:可能對你公道啲。第三,下一個格我哋見到就係火警警報裝置。 14 鍾傑文先生:唔嗯。 15 李澍桓大律師:呢個就應該係講緊嗰個警鐘嘞。 16 鍾傑文先生:係。 17 李澍桓大律師:喺3.1 之下呢,跟住你見到(c)嗰度呢,又係有相類似涉及關於電線嗰個敘 18 述嘅。 19 鍾傑文先生:唔,冇錯。 20 李澍桓大律師:咁根據呢度個檢驗結果都係剔咗「是」,即係應該係滿意嘅。 21 鍾傑文先生:冇錯。 22 李澍桓大律師:你一次過睇埋539 頁第4 項,跟住你見到電力組件,個頂嗰度。 23 鍾傑文先生:係,見到。 24 李澍桓大律師:如果你睇(d)嗰個欄目,根據呢度我讀出嚟,就係「要須符合英國標準 25 5839-1:2002+A2:2008 或英國標準5839-1:2017 及相關通函規定嘅系統而 26 言,系統嘅電線包括線碼,如作下述用途均具有規定耐火時效嘅防火電線」,跟住 27 講咗一啲用嘅地方喇,(如適用)。我關注嘅似乎呢度首先就係講緊嗰個電線嘅一 28 啲標準。 29 鐘傑文先生:冇錯。 30 李澍桓大律師:一啲耐燃、抗燃嘅一個要求。但係我如果睇個表格上面,呢度跟住就跟咗 31 「不適用」嘅。 32 鐘傑文先生:冇錯。 33 李澍桓大律師:好嘞,你睇過三份文件,姜助理處長嘅一啲睇法,作業守則嘅一啲規定,同 34 埋你哋曾經做過嘅一個年檢核對表嘞,你剛才有講過話有同消防處有溝通過,有一 35 啲嘢想講,我而家畀你講。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第六天

5 本謄本由Epiq 編製 鐘傑文先生:好嘅。其實呢個核對表就當時我哋收到喇,我哋業界都好多問題㗎,因為我哋 1 究竟跟最新2022 年嘅例吖,定還是跟佢當年,1984 年起好嘅例去檢查呢?因為 2 起個唔係我哋嚟㗎,我哋只係做個年檢。如果即係整個(English Spoken)差 3 唔有幾十年,消防處嗰個條例越嚟越好,越嚟越改善,究竟係年檢個部分需唔需要 4 跟到最新呢?我哋知道維修要嘅,我哋喺我哋維修嘅過程裏面我哋會㗎。消防處當 5 時就咁講,都係跟番落成年份,如果唔適用嘅填番不適用。所以我哋喺嗰啲電線嗰 6 度我哋係填咗不適用嘅,即係嗰啲符合標準喇,因為我哋冇辦法可以知道嗰條電線 7 係咪真係符合標準。 8 李澍桓大律師:即係所以你--我睇下我嘅理解有冇錯。 9 鍾傑文先生:係。 10 李澍桓大律師:即係你嘅證供嘅意思就即係話其實層樓就唔係2022 年先起。 11 鍾傑文先生:冇錯。 12 李澍桓大律師:你就用2022 年要我跟一啲當時嘅標準,但係就唔係好--呢個消防裝置就幾 13 十年前已經--起樓嘅時候已經有埋喺度嘞? 14 鍾傑文先生:係嘞。 15 李澍桓大律師:咁究竟我做年檢嘅時候,我係咪要叫佢全座。 16 鍾傑文先生:冇錯。 17 李澍桓大律師:如果要換嘅話,咁2023 年又有一個新標準。 18 鍾傑文先生:係嘞。 19 李澍桓大律師:佢係咪又要... 20 鍾傑文先生:係嘞。 21 李澍桓大律師:你頭先咪有問過消防處好多次嘅。 22 鍾傑文先生:好多次。 23 李澍桓大律師:咁你嘅回覆,佢有冇畀過回覆你㗎? 24 鍾傑文先生:佢哋有㗎,佢就話都係跟番落成當年嗰個標準,咁自己睇番呀咁樣,即係你哋- 25 -我哋就係咁樣囉,以我哋所知嘅,我哋就填嗰樣嘢囉。 26 李澍桓大律師:簡單啲嚟講,即係話如果有損毀真係要換嘞,你就要跟現時現行嘅標準去做 27 嘞? 28 鍾傑文先生:係嘞,冇錯嘞。 29 李澍桓大律師:但係如果純粹年檢,佢冇耗損,唔需要換嘅話呢,咁以你嘅理解就應該跟番 30 一九八幾年佢起樓嗰陣時嗰個標準? 31 鍾傑文先生:個標準,冇錯嘞。 32 李澍桓大律師:好,呢個係第一個議題要畀你有個回應嘅。第二個議題就係關於尋日我有問 33 過做完年檢3 月,點解去到10 月、11 月先開始做執修,你記得我問過你喇。 34 鍾傑文先生:記得。 35 李澍桓大律師:你其實喺個證供入面就有講過話,「哦,我都理解嘅,佢哋要投標各樣嘢, 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第六天

6 本謄本由Epiq 編製 所以要啲時間」,就消防處梗係想越快越好,你記得你個回應吖嘛? 1 鍾傑文先生:記得。 2 李澍桓大律師:我純粹想話聲畀你知呢,似乎ISS,即係置邦嗰邊其中有證人個講法呢,佢 3 就話其實係有要求過你早啲做嘅。 4 鍾傑文先生:係呀。 5 李澍桓大律師:不過你就因為個零件嘅問題,你就話開頭冇辦法10 月嗰陣時去做,係咪? 6 鍾傑文先生:冇錯,佢10 月2 號簽畀我哋。 7 李澍桓大律師:咁呢個係咪--所以點解解釋會先做咗水喉嗰一部分。 8 鍾傑文先生:可以咁講。 9 李澍桓大律師:就然之後11 月先至做電嗰部分。 10 鍾傑文先生:係嘞,當我哋收到嗰啲緊急照明燈,因為我哋嗰張維修單呢,絕大部分就係換 11 緊急照明燈,85 支。 12 李澍桓大律師:係。 13 鍾傑文先生:係嘞。咁個(English Spoken)話冇貨,要到11 月中先有,咁我當時嚟 14 講都同佢咁樣溝通嘅。 15 李澍桓大律師:好,呢個我畀你處理咗嘞,咁我講番我想問你嘅嘢嘞。 16 鍾傑文先生:好呀。 17 李澍桓大律師:尋日你都--應該黃先生,你嘅同事作供嘅時候,你都有坐喺度聽到佢嘅證 18 供? 19 鍾傑文先生:有。 20 李澍桓大律師:因為佢都好詳細解釋咗一啲技術上嘅嘢,個系統點樣運作,你都聽到嗰部分 21 嘅證供,係咪? 22 鍾傑文先生:聽到。 23 李澍桓大律師:我睇下你同唔同意佢嘅證供。因為始終嗰啲係佢嘅證供。 24 鍾傑文先生:好,明白。 25 李澍桓大律師:咁我都要畀個機會你睇下。就住主動消防裝備,即係(English 26 Spoken)嘅呢一個議題喇,其實我得出嘅就應該係有三點嘅:首先第一,有一個 27 叫做上水泵。 28 鍾傑文先生:冇錯。 29 李澍桓大律師:上水泵就係同天面嘅水缸同埋喉轆,佢可以咁講係一個配備嚟嘅,即係一齊 30 要運作嘅,係咪? 31 鍾傑文先生:係。 32 李澍桓大律師:而呢個上水泵就係安置喺地下一個叫做泵房嘅地方嘅? 33 鍾傑文先生:同意。 34 李澍桓大律師:唔。第二點就有一個叫做消防加壓泵。 35 鍾傑文先生:冇錯。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第六天

7 本謄本由Epiq 編製 李澍桓大律師:呢個加壓泵就係配合後樓梯入面,我哋見到嗰個消防栓嚟運作嘅? 1 鍾傑文先生:冇錯。 2 李澍桓大律師:因為呢個就係愛嚟畀消防員駁喉落去救火嘅,係咪? 3 鍾傑文先生:唔嗯,係。 4 李澍桓大律師:而呢個消防嘅加壓泵就係擺喺另一個房,叫做--可能叫做消房加壓泵房或者 5 消防泵房嘅地方嘅。 6 鍾傑文先生:冇錯。 7 李澍桓大律師:呢個就係宏福苑八座呢個都係咁樣嘅情況,係咪? 8 鍾傑文先生:冇錯。 9 李澍桓大律師:而第三個喺消防嘅加壓泵房入面,我哋琴日都有見過就仲有一個叫做總電源 10 掣嘅。 11 鍾傑文先生:係。 12 李澍桓大律師:亦係俗所稱嘅「刀掣」。 13 鍾傑文先生:係。 14 李澍桓大律師:呢個刀掣就係控制晒全套消防裝備,包括上水泵、加壓泵? 15 鍾傑文先生:唔同意。 16 李澍桓大律師:唔同意? 17 鍾傑文先生:唔同意。 18 李澍桓大律師:佢係淨係控制消防加壓泵加警報系統。 19 鍾傑文先生:冇錯。 20 李澍桓大律師:如果閂咗呢一個刀掣嘅話,即係刪咗個電源嘅話呢,加壓泵同警報系統就唔 21 會運作? 22 鍾傑文先生:冇錯。 23 李澍桓大律師:唔,咁所以基本上--但係呢一個總電源掣都喺個加壓泵房入面嘅? 24 鍾傑文先生:冇錯。 25 李澍桓大律師:唔。好嘞,咁即係所以你大致上你都同意阿黃生嗰個證供? 26 鍾傑文先生:同意。 27 李澍桓大律師:我相信佢都應該係一個幾資深嘅員工嚟㗎嘞,係咪呀? 28 鍾傑文先生:係。 29 李澍桓大律師:我相信好多時你都信賴佢嘅工作。 30 鍾傑文先生:絕對。 31 李澍桓大律師:唔好介意我咁問你。 32 鍾傑文先生:係。 33 李澍桓大律師:25 年3 月呢個年檢,鍾先生你自己有冇到場去過宏福苑㗎? 34 鍾傑文先生:冇嘅。 35 李澍桓大律師:25 年執修水喉嗰部分,10 月19 號,喺嗰段時間你有冇落過宏福苑㗎? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第六天

8 本謄本由Epiq 編製 鍾傑文先生:冇嘅。 1 李澍桓大律師:25 年11 月做電工嗰方面嘅執修,你有冇落過宏福苑? 2 鍾傑文先生:冇嘅。 3 李澍桓大律師:唔。咁即係你都係依靠員工畀你一啲訊息。 4 鍾傑文先生:(點頭) 5 李澍桓大律師:你岋頭即係同意? 6 鍾傑文先生:我哋亦都全部有相,同埋遇到問題--係嘞,同意嘅。 7 李澍桓大律師:我唔係批評你呀。 8 鍾傑文先生:係。 9 李澍桓大律師:我純粹想確認你係即係要依靠同事話畀你知在地現場嘅一啲情況。 10 鍾傑文先生:係。 11 李澍桓大律師:咁當然,我唔係話你唔進行監督,我相信因應某一啲情況就畀一啲適當嘅指 12 示你啲同事,係咪? 13 鍾傑文先生:係,冇錯。 14 李澍桓大律師:唔。想問多你關於少少年檢上面,關於水缸嘅啫。 15 鍾傑文先生:係。 16 李澍桓大律師:喺呢度我想你先睇--用個例子就係我哋睇R1 第379 頁。你見到呢個我哋係 17 --頭先我哋睇過火警警鐘喇,咁呢個就係關於消防水缸嘅。 18 鍾傑文先生:係。 19 李澍桓大律師:咁都係一個核對表,我相信同你剛才解釋一樣喇,你哋要--唔需要交畀消防 20 處。 21 鍾傑文先生:冇錯。 22 李澍桓大律師:但係就要保留一個記錄? 23 鍾傑文先生:冇錯。 24 李澍桓大律師:呢個我做個例子就係A 座宏仁閣嘅一個核對表。 25 鍾傑文先生:唔嗯。 26 李澍桓大律師:咁你見到,如果我哋睇第一個格就係水缸結構。 27 鍾傑文先生:係。 28 李澍桓大律師:我哋睇A 嗰度就話水缸個整體係咪結構,包括貓梯係完好,冇滲漏同埋明顯 29 嘅破損,呢度我哋見到剔咗「是」嘅。 30 鍾傑文先生:冇錯嘅。 31 李澍桓大律師:然之後如果我哋揭到380 頁,下一頁,我想你睇第三,「存水」嗰度,B 同 32 埋D 嗰兩個項目,我見到都剔咗「否」嘅。 33 鍾傑文先生:係。 34 李澍桓大律師:首先我個理解呢,呢度就講緊其實呢個消防水缸,天面嘅呢個消防水缸對於 35 佢個儲水能力有一定嘅要求嘅? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第六天

9 本謄本由Epiq 編製 鍾傑文先生:係。 1 李澍桓大律師:佢平時一定要儲不少於90%嘅儲水量。 2 鍾傑文先生:係。 3 李澍桓大律師:一跌過90%嘅話,佢應該要識得自動由個上水泵抽水上去儲番滿呢個天面嘅 4 消防缸,係咪? 5 鍾傑文先生:係,冇錯。 6 李澍桓大律師:呢個係個要求,因為呢個消防缸就係愛嚟供應個喉轆救火嘅一個主要嘅水嘅 7 來源嚟㗎嘛。 8 鍾傑文先生:係嘞。 9 李澍桓大律師:我見到呢度剔咗就「否」,咁係咪即係話其實係咪佢嘅儲水能力或者佢個注 10 水能力係出現問題? 11 鍾傑文先生:「水缸內的水位不低於所需儲水量90%」。 12 李澍桓大律師:跟住佢就話「否」喎,咪即係唔合格。 13 鍾傑文先生:我諗可能我哋填錯,係呀,當時可能...(聽不清)。 14 李澍桓大律師:咁D 呢? 15 鍾傑文先生:水位下降不超過所需儲水量的10%時,浮球閥或上水泵向水缸注水。佢應該係 16 --如果剔咗否係當時嚟講可能有問題,但係我睇番(English Spoken)係冇。 17 李澍桓大律師:但你就根據呢張年檢表去做嗰個251㗎嘛? 18 鍾傑文先生:其實就... 19 李澍桓大律師:你不如先答咗我係咪。 20 鍾傑文先生:你問...(聽不清) 21 李澍桓大律師:你係根據呢一個年檢嘅結果,然之後去製備嗰張證書FS251㗎嘛。 22 鍾傑文先生:製備嗰方面,打個(English Spoken),最後我簽名嘅。 23 李澍桓大律師:係。 24 鍾傑文先生:但係就係嗰個叫做整個成個(English Spoken)就個小姐整嘅,當時嚟講 25 我就咁對囉,我就冇留意到。 26 李澍桓大律師:你如果睇381 頁。 27 鍾傑文先生:係。 28 李澍桓大律師:似乎製備呢張文件就係3 月31 號至少簽發嘅日子。 29 鍾傑文先生:係。 30 李澍桓大律師:就有鍾生你個名。 31 鍾傑文先生:係。 32 李澍桓大律師:RC 嗰啲我相信就係啲牌照嘅編號。 33 鍾傑文先生:冇錯。 34 李澍桓大律師:咁然之後嗰個係咪你嘅你簽名? 35 鍾傑文先生:係我個簽名嚟。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第六天

10 本謄本由Epiq 編製 李澍桓大律師:所以你簽嘅時候應該係知悉入面個內容㗎嘛? 1 鍾傑文先生:知,係。 2 李澍桓大律師:你睇過先簽㗎嘛? 3 鍾傑文先生:係。 4 李澍桓大律師:咁你睇到三-- 呢度有兩個似乎有問題嘅地方,你有冇作跟進問下同事, 5 「喂,係咪唔合格呀?」 6 鍾傑文先生:當時我冇留意到。 7 李澍桓大律師:冇留意到? 8 鍾傑文先生:係呀。 9 李澍桓大律師:因為我留意到,如果你跟住睇番呢一個相應嘅FS251,咁我哋可以去睇657 10 頁,呢個就係宏仁閣,即係我哋剛才睇A 座嘅相應嘅FS251 嗰張表格,係咪? 11 鍾傑文先生:係。 12 李澍桓大律師:下面第三部分就有列出咗一啲所謂損壞嘅一啲事項。 13 鍾傑文先生:係。 14 李澍桓大律師:如果我理解16 就係關於喉轆同消防栓嘅嗰個系統喇? 15 鍾傑文先生:冇錯嘅。 16 李澍桓大律師:呢度似乎就冇講過話要處理存水嗰個問題喎。 17 鍾傑文先生:係,冇錯。 18 李澍桓大律師:究竟邊張啱呀? 19 鍾傑文先生:證書。 20 李澍桓大律師:證書啱? 21 鍾傑文先生:唔。 22 李澍桓大律師:咁你加嗰個存水量嗰個,即係頭先我哋睇到嗰啲問題落去,係你因為唔理嗰 23 個年檢表,定還是你做咗跟進,定係點樣呀? 24 鍾傑文先生:我睇唔到。 25 李澍桓大律師:你睇唔到意思係? 26 鍾傑文先生:意思我簽嘅時我冇留意到呢一樣嘢? 27 李澍桓大律師:冇留意到嗰個年檢表有呢個問題? 28 鍾傑文先生:係嘞,係嘞。 29 陸啟康法官:咁但係你點可以肯定當時水缸真係冇問題呢? 30 鍾傑文先生:佢會揭出嚟睇一睇。睇一睇,其實你話90%(English Spoken)我哋真係 31 好難去度得到,個水缸就睇一睇滿水,跟住我哋就okay㗎嘞其實。跟住當然會試 32 一試個豬膽睇下識唔識行喇。 33 陸啟康法官:我知道,但係你--因為你嗰個核對表係有--好似有問題咁樣樣,你又冇跟進 34 過,咁點--我哋--你點樣可以肯定其實嗰個水缸係冇漏水呢? 35 鍾傑文先生:我點可以肯定個水缸冇漏水,因為水缸漏水就好明顯睇得到嘅,同埋通常我哋 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第六天

11 本謄本由Epiq 編製 嘅經驗呢,都係管理處都會通知我哋「喂,有人漏水,有人投訴」咁樣嘅。咁我哋 1 基本上見到--如果真係見到冇乜水嘅,我哋望一望,冇漏水,因為個水漬會睇到。 2 當時宏福苑嗰個結構,我自己都有去過,我記得都要上個貓梯,咁如果佢漏水呢, 3 (English Spoken)啲水就會向下流喇,就會見到個天台濕晒喇,咁樣囉。 4 陸啟康法官:咁你點知道嗰個巡視,即係當日你--唔係你去巡視? 5 鍾傑文先生:係。 6 陸啟康法官:嗰個應該都係黃生? 7 鍾傑文先生:黃生嚟嘅。 8 陸啟康法官:佢係冇--即係肯定佢係... 9 鍾傑文先生:我問過佢,冇,呢個係我事後再問過佢,嗄。 10 陸啟康法官:因為當然其實有一個--另外一個--帶出咗另一個問題,我哋三位都覺得有啲奇 11 怪就係點解個註冊嘅承辦商去睇過,冇問題之後,突然間幾日之後就話有問題,要 12 進行一個工程?呢個工程係咪必須?同埋嗰個程序係點樣樣?其實我哋可能會--喺 13 呢方面可能會有啲嘅即係推斷嘅,所以我喺度亦都--即係呢個推斷我哋都即係要公 14 道,話畀各個即係涉事方知道可能我哋喺呢方面會作出一個跟進。 15 李澍桓大律師:主席,放心,因為我哋當然係知道有呢個問題存在,所以我哋亦都會透過證 16 人,希望可以處理到呢個議題。 17 陸啟康法官:唔該。 18 李澍桓大律師:我哋... 19 孫靖乾資深大律師:主席、兩位委員,我啱啱聽到頭先主席問嗰個問題,咁因為今日我再聽 20 到鍾先生嗰個作證嘅嗰個內容,咁似乎鍾先生佢係對嗰個宏福苑嗰個設備佢本身就 21 冇親自去睇過,所以如果頭先主席同兩位委員有呢一方面嘅考慮嘅話,我就--當然 22 可能係等呢個獨立委員會嘅代表大律師再睇下有冇需要即係--似乎應該係可能係黃 23 先生。 24 陸啟康法官:其實黃生就話睇過冇嘅。 25 孫靖乾資深大律師:係。 26 陸啟康法官:我記得個證供尋日佢講過係冇嘅。 27 孫靖乾資深大律師:係,即係所以我... 28 陸啟康法官:但係即係變咗--其實證供就喺度㗎嘞。 29 孫靖乾資深大律師:係。 30 陸啟康法官:但係即係究竟即係發生咗咩嘢事?如果係真係冇嘅話,咁係黃生睇錯抑或係即 31 係之後其實個工程係點樣樣? 32 孫靖乾資深大律師:係,我純粹個意思即係話可能要等--即係如果係即係有一啲進一步嘅問 33 題,係真係仲需要同譬如話黃先生澄清嘅時候,我記得喺嗰個程序裏面,如果需要 34 嘅時候,獨立委員會嘅代表大律師係可以再傳召某一啲證人去澄清或者等佢哋去回 35 答呢啲嘅問題,係。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第六天

12 本謄本由Epiq 編製 陸啟康法官:多謝協助。 1 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋會考慮呢一個可能性,但係正如主席所講,其實嗰個問題同個答案 2 係問咗同答咗,暫時係,我哋睇到,(English Spoken)。 3 李澍桓大律師:或者我哋再睇多一個例子,好嘛? 4 鍾傑文先生:好。 5 李澍桓大律師:如果你睇另一個核對表喺533 頁,咁呢個就係關於宏志閣。 6 鍾傑文先生:係。 7 李澍桓大律師:H 座嘅。 8 鍾傑文先生:係。 9 李澍桓大律師:你見到上面都係一個水缸嘅年檢核對表。 10 鍾傑文先生:係。 11 李澍桓大律師:咁我--上面寫咗係「宏志閣」,咁我哋直接跳去534 頁,同一個部分,第 12 三,存水,B 同D 嗰度同樣地又係似乎有兩個唔合格嘅地方,見唔見到? 13 鍾傑文先生:唔嗯。 14 李澍桓大律師:你「唔嗯」係見到吖嘛? 15 鍾傑文先生:我見到嘅。 16 李澍桓大律師:嗄。一次過等你睇埋相對應嘅251,咁我哋可以喺664 頁嗰度睇到嘅。呢個 17 係我哋見到係宏志閣。 18 鍾傑文先生:唔嗯。 19 李澍桓大律師:年檢嗰陣時嘅FS251,如果我哋又係一跳跳落去,睇最低第三部分話損壞咗 20 嘅事項,16 號代碼,跟住隔籬我哋就睇到就係喉轆同埋消防栓嗰個系統,同樣地, 21 似乎我根據我嘅理解,就冇提及過水缸存水嗰度嘅能力有問題需要修理嘅。 22 鍾傑文先生:係。 23 李澍桓大律師:咁下面我哋亦都見到係鍾生你簽名。 24 鍾傑文先生:冇錯。 25 李澍桓大律師:係咪?咁你個解釋係咪同頭先A 座嘅情況一樣? 26 鍾傑文先生:一樣。 27 李澍桓大律師:你遺漏咗、睇漏咗? 28 鍾傑文先生:係,係。 29 李澍桓大律師:咁其實即係而家如果問你係要修理定唔需要修理,其實你都唔知個囉喎? 30 鍾傑文先生:咁樣講,如果你話存水量係90%,係覺得係水缸漏水,我覺得又籠統,咁可能 31 即係當時嚟講,我亦都冇去查證係究竟個... 32 李澍桓大律師:停一停先,我問緊唔係漏水嘅問題。 33 鍾傑文先生:Okay。 34 李澍桓大律師:我問緊係似乎呢一部分係針對有冇存水嘅能力,同埋如果跌過某一個水位, 35 係咪會注滿番嗰個能力,因為第一部分我哋就睇到漏水嗰度就好明顯佢話冇漏水, 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第六天

13 本謄本由Epiq 編製 結構冇問題。 1 鍾傑文先生:係。 2 李澍桓大律師:但係即係似乎呢個就關於嗰個上水泵嗰個問題吖嘛? 3 鍾傑文先生:係。 4 李澍桓大律師:咁似乎你而家呢張251 嘅講法同A 座一樣就冇嘢需要修理吖嘛? 5 鍾傑文先生:係。 6 李澍桓大律師:咁我剛才嘅問題就話A 座又好,H 座又好,你就睇漏咗,但係其實你自己就 7 唔知道究竟有冇嘢需要修理㗎嘛? 8 鍾傑文先生:我哋除咗睇證書之外,其實我哋都有相嗰啲,所以就我哋當時嚟講係睇個相去 9 做一個--因為我哋--即係我哋公司一直以嚟,你可能見到我哋都好多嗰啲相,咁全 10 部就係有咩嘢(English Spoken)就會影相,咁我睇相,落個報價,我都係咁 11 樣做,係。所以我認同嘅,呢兩個--251 同埋核對表,佢所講嘅(English 12 Spoken)係唔(English Spoken)嘅,係。 13 李澍桓大律師:我如果--因為我知道你嗰啲相就係由你哋提供畀警方。 14 鍾傑文先生:係。 15 李澍桓大律師:同埋呢個委員會。 16 鍾傑文先生:係,冇錯。 17 李澍桓大律師:咁我就有機會睇漏,不過我啲同事就應該唔會嘅,我睇過嗰四十九張檢查過 18 話有問題嘅相片。 19 鍾傑文先生:唔嗯。 20 李澍桓大律師:我似乎睇唔到有任何一張相片係講個水缸--影個水缸喎。 21 鍾傑文先生:係,因為冇(English Spoken)。 22 李澍桓大律師:咁就跳番落去原先嘅問題,個年檢表點解會有人剔咗話有(English 23 Spoken),有損壞? 24 鍾傑文先生:我唔知點解黃健華會咁樣剔,亦都我當時嚟講,當然係我嘅責任嚟嘅,我冇睇 25 清楚。 26 李澍桓大律師:係。但係無論如何點都好,你嘅講法似乎就係話個水缸嘅結構就一定冇問題 27 嘅? 28 鍾傑文先生:係。 29 李澍桓大律師:就冇漏水嘅?剛才你亦都回答咗主席,係咪? 30 鍾傑文先生:係,係,冇錯。 31 李澍桓大律師:我想你或者都紀錄在案你嘅提供畀委員會嘅嗰個證人口供第1535 頁第19 32 段,你就係咁講嘅。我由第二句嗰度開始講,第19 段,獨立紀錄就係呢個係你 33 2026 年2 月25 號你簽署嘅一個證人口供,係咪? 34 鍾傑文先生:係,冇錯。 35 李澍桓大律師:第二句嗰度就話「況且以本人嘅認知,一般修復消防水缸係無需鋪設磚仔 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第六天

14 本謄本由Epiq 編製 (瓷磚),因消防水缸內的儲水係用來滅火的,無需保持特別潔淨,所以本人不明 1 白如此安排的原因,此外,修復水缸也不需要三個月的時間。」你確認呢個都仍然 2 係你今日嘅證供,係咪? 3 鍾傑文先生:係,我信我相信嘅嘢。 4 李澍桓大律師:即係簡單啲嚟講,鋪瓷磚嘅呢一個做法其實你覺得係多餘嘅? 5 鍾傑文先生:唔係,我覺得唔(English Spoken)。 6 李澍桓大律師:我想你--我問下一個問題之前,我畀你睇埋另外一個文件先,就係一張今次 7 維修嘅合約嚟嘅。 8 鍾傑文先生:唔。 9 李澍桓大律師:其實如果我哋去呢個應該係H 嘅一個文件冊,喺55 頁,你見到--純粹等你 10 知道我哋睇緊啲咩嘢文件。 11 鍾傑文先生:唔。 12 李澍桓大律師:呢份就係關於宏福苑嘅修葺工程合約嚟嘅。 13 鍾傑文先生:係。 14 李澍桓大律師:咁你見到上面就係關於宏福苑,橙色嗰度。 15 鍾傑文先生:唔。 16 李澍桓大律師:跟住你見到委託人就係立案法團,跟住工程顧問同埋認可人士我哋見到鴻 17 毅,同埋有一位叫吳曜嘅建築師,跟住總承建商就宏業嘅。 18 鍾傑文先生:係。 19 李澍桓大律師:咁我哋其實可以直接跟住跳去137 頁,咁呢個係合約其中一部分,叫做單價 20 細數表嘅,咁即係話佢將基本上每一個工程項目佢有一個報價喺度嘅。 21 鍾傑文先生:係。 22 李澍桓大律師:有列出咗個價錢,唔係報價,因為簽咗合約㗎嘞。 23 鍾傑文先生:Okay。 24 李澍桓大律師:然之後我想你睇155 頁,呢度佢就係第六部分,叫做雜項工程,最頂嗰度。 25 鍾傑文先生:Okay。 26 李澍桓大律師:6.2,我想你花少少時間你睇一睇,尤其是第6 點,你睇完之後話我知。 27 鍾傑文先生:我係全部都要睇,但係尤其是第6 點,係咪? 28 李澍桓大律師:係,冇錯。 29 鍾傑文先生:Okay。Okay,睇咗。 30 李澍桓大律師:係,呢度--當然我嘅理解佢就唔係淨係講緊天面嗰個消防水缸嘅。 31 鍾傑文先生:唔。 32 李澍桓大律師:佢似乎講緊一概嘅水缸嘅。 33 鍾傑文先生:係,冇錯。 34 李澍桓大律師:但係你呢個你睇到,似乎第6 點尤其是,即係講緊話水缸飾面。 35 鍾傑文先生:係。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第六天

15 本謄本由Epiq 編製 李澍桓大律師:6.2A,落番少少,第6,就話要做批蕩,跟住用白階磚。 1 鍾傑文先生:係。 2 李澍桓大律師:如果根據你剛才嘅講法,似乎就係你唔同意,認為呢一個唔常見嘅一個做 3 法,係咪? 4 鍾傑文先生:我覺得係唔常見啫,係。 5 李澍桓大律師:咁你有冇喺你過往嗰做咗咁多年註冊承辦商嘅經驗,係有做過要求去維修水 6 缸並且做鋪磚呢一個動作? 7 鍾傑文先生:冇。我公道啲咁講,我哋冇做維修水缸嘅,咁呢啲係屬於(English 8 Spoken)嘢咁樣,但係我哋建水缸就冇,你話天台消防水缸。 9 李澍桓大律師:你嘅講法就即係其實話既然都冇漏水,就冇必要去做入面一啲任何工程? 10 鍾傑文先生:或者咁樣講,即係我嘅理解嚟嘅。消防水缸係攞嚟救火嘅。 11 李澍桓大律師:係。 12 鍾傑文先生:咁入面佢畀咩嘢水,就係水務署佢認為畀咩嘢水你畀咩嘢水,可以係咸水、食 13 水、嗰啲環保水都可以。咁我嘅理解就唔需要飲用嘅級數嘅,咁通常我哋見到食水 14 缸飲用嗰啲就會用瓦仔多。即係當然,用咗係好嘅,咁樣囉。 15 李澍桓大律師:好,睇完呢個合約,呢一個部分,咁我想跳落去下一個議題。就無論點都 16 好,即係如果當個法團或者邊個人決定話要維修水缸嘅話,咁尤其是要做到即係內 17 裏結構話要鋪磚嘅呢個動作。 18 鍾傑文先生:唔嗯。 19 李澍桓大律師:咁亦都配合番黃生同你嘅證供,似乎定必然第一,要清空咗水缸先,係咪? 20 鍾傑文先生:係,冇錯。 21 李澍桓大律師:因為有水就做唔到? 22 鍾傑文先生:唔嗯。 23 李澍桓大律師:咁當然,原本就可以就咁樣喺個天面嘅水缸度扭開個掣,咪放晒啲水佢,係 24 咪? 25 鍾傑文先生:唔嗯,冇錯。 26 李澍桓大律師:但係有個問題嘅,因為個水缸就連接咗個上水泵嘅系統㗎嘛? 27 鍾傑文先生:係,冇錯。 28 李澍桓大律師:所以如果你淨係齋放水,只會不斷扯番啲水上去,係咪? 29 鍾傑文先生:係,冇錯,冇錯。 30 李澍桓大律師:所以定必然你要去清水缸嘅時候,同時間就要熄咗個上水泵? 31 鍾傑文先生:係,冇錯。 32 李澍桓大律師:因為咁樣,就先至令個水缸完全去放清啲水? 33 鍾傑文先生:冇錯。 34 李澍桓大律師:所以要閂嘅就要閂嗰個上水泵,係咪? 35 鍾傑文先生:係,上水泵一定係要閂嘅,係。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第六天

16 本謄本由Epiq 編製 李澍桓大律師:就係我哋見到喺即係一般泵房嗰個上水泵? 1 鍾傑文先生:係。 2 李澍桓大律師:就唔係去閂個加壓泵? 3 鍾傑文先生:(English Spoken)係嘅,(English Spoken)係嘅,冇錯。 4 李澍桓大律師:你講(English Spoken)即係實際上係要咁做,係咪? 5 鍾傑文先生:係一定要閂上水泵。 6 李澍桓大律師:你唔會閂個加壓泵㗎嘛?因為加壓泵係關消防栓事㗎嘛? 7 鍾傑文先生:我點解講話(English Spoken)係?咁好多時候就即係我哋都理解坊間都 8 有種做法,就係因為佢哋如果冇晒水缸嘅水,佢哋都要去入SDN,因為個系統停 9 咗,咁成個消防栓系統都停用,咁可能都基於呢個安全理由,都會個消防泵都會閂 10 咁樣。但係你問我個人係咪必須?我覺得喺成個工序上面都未必係一個必須,咁 11 樣。 12 李澍桓大律師:所以你嘅講法就(English Spoken)就應該淨係閂個上水泵? 13 鍾傑文先生:係。 14 李澍桓大律師:好。咁我就--我哋睇一睇10 月落去做執修嗰陣時嗰個情況。咁喺呢度... 15 陸啟康法官:我唔係好明,我唔係好明個答案。 16 鍾傑文先生:係。 17 陸啟康法官:即係其實橫掂我都閂咗上水泵,我就閂埋加壓泵? 18 鍾傑文先生:唔可以咁樣講。畀我詳細少少講一講個運作,好唔好?即係如果消防員要救 19 火,咁佢都會打爛個(English Spoken),響鐘嘅時候,消防泵都啟動嘅,係 20 令到個水壓加大,但係如果嗰啲水喺邊度嚟,就係個水缸嗰度嚟。如果個水缸冇晒 21 水,咁冇水,咁第一,冇水嘅情況同埋泵嘅作用,就算開咗可能都冇用,咁亦都會 22 行空泵都會損壞,咁樣。 23 陸啟康法官:所以其實咁嘅做法都可以理解? 24 鍾傑文先生:可以理解,就係咁解。 25 陸啟康法官:明白,明白。 26 李澍桓大律師:但係就淨係閂個泵?即係加壓泵。 27 鍾傑文先生:當然,當然。 28 李澍桓大律師:我哋知道先做水喉嗰部分就應該係有水喉工,我哋知道有三位同事,係咪? 29 應該係唐慶麟先生,一位叫做唐小明先生,同埋仲有一個兼職嘅工人就叫蔡金龍? 30 鍾傑文先生:冇錯嘅。 31 李澍桓大律師:就係呢三位同事就先喺--應該第一日就係16 號? 32 鍾傑文先生:係。 33 李澍桓大律師:25 年就做水喉嗰部分? 34 鍾傑文先生:係。 35 李澍桓大律師:實際啲嚟講就係去換一啲喉轆上面嘅一啲閘掣、換嗰啲噴咀嗰啲咁樣嘅工 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第六天

17 本謄本由Epiq 編製 序,係咪? 1 鍾傑文先生:冇錯,係。 2 李澍桓大律師:喺呢度我想你睇一睇唐先生,唐慶麟先生佢提供畀警方嗰份口供入面嘅一個 3 段落,咁就喺189 頁嘅,我想你睇第5 段,尤其是,睇下你同唔同意佢嘅講法,首 4 先第一句佢就話「朝頭早10 月16 日上午10 點,我」--即係唐生... 5 陸啟康法官:邊個文件夾189? 6 李澍桓大律師:R1。咁呢個就係唐生嘅口供,畀警方,佢就喺2025 年10 月16 日上午10 7 點鐘,「我」--即係唐生,「同兼職水喉工蔡金龍同埋全職嘅水喉工唐小明就去咗 8 宏福苑就做呢個喉轆、閘掣嘅更換工作」,如果我跳過幾行,大概一、二、三、 9 四、五、六,去到第六行,上面數落嚟第六行讀,咁佢就話「我到天台就」--即係 10 唐生就到天台關閉消防水缸嘅出水閘掣。 11 鍾傑文先生:係。 12 李澍桓大律師:佢跟住解釋,佢就話「以避免更換消防喉轆同埋嗰個閘掣嘅時候會有大量水 13 湧出。」 14 鍾傑文先生:係。 15 李澍桓大律師:「而當時個閘掣係打開嘅。」 16 鍾傑文先生:唔。 17 李澍桓大律師:即係供緊水,係咪? 18 鍾傑文先生:唔。 19 李澍桓大律師:咁就「我就冇檢查到個消防水缸入面有冇水」,咁似乎佢嘗試講嘅就係話喺 20 未做呢啲更換工程之前,佢就需要閂咗個消防水缸,即係天面嗰個水缸嗰個供水 21 嘅? 22 鍾傑文先生:係。 23 李澍桓大律師:呢個係一個合適、適當嘅做法嚟嘅? 24 鍾傑文先生:啱。 25 李澍桓大律師:咁佢就--跟住再讀落去,佢就話另外「當完成咗呢一個宏仁閣、宏道閣同埋 26 宏新閣嘅維修工程之後,就會拍照存檔,然之後蔡金龍就會到每座天台打開消防水 27 缸嘅出水閘掣,讓我進行測試,但我未見消防水喉有水出。」咁個--停一停。 28 鍾傑文先生:唔。 29 李澍桓大律師:呢個亦都係一個正常嘅做法? 30 鍾傑文先生:係。 31 李澍桓大律師:換完,咁都要睇下啲部件係咪... 32 鍾傑文先生:係。 33 李澍桓大律師:...運作㗎嘛? 34 鍾傑文先生:當然。 35 李澍桓大律師:咁呢個就要開番水,試下開個譬如噴嘴係咪有水出,係咪? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第六天

18 本謄本由Epiq 編製 鍾傑文先生:係。 1 李澍桓大律師:所以呢個--唐生嘅呢個描述都係一個正常嘅一個做法嚟嘅? 2 鍾傑文先生:冇錯。 3 李澍桓大律師:好,跟住佢話「由於冇見到消防喉有水出,所以唐生自己就再去宏仁閣、宏 4 道閣同宏新閣嘅天台檢查消防水缸同埋消防水缸嘅出水閘掣。」 5 鍾傑文先生:唔嗯。 6 李澍桓大律師:佢就話「期間唐生發現,上述三座嘅消防水缸內都冇水,缸內就應該曾經進 7 行鋪磚嘅工程。咁之後我就向宏福苑嘅工程主管林先生就查詢,得知宏福苑八座嘅 8 消防水缸都有執修工程嘅關係,所以放掉消防儲水缸內嘅水。因此,我將上述事宜 9 告知老闆鍾先生後,同日下午5 時向管理處報告便離開。」你睇到呢段? 10 鍾傑文先生:啱。 11 李澍桓大律師:首先,我想你確認嘅,你係咪喺當日有同呢位唐先生有過一個通話? 12 鍾傑文先生:冇錯,冇錯。 13 李澍桓大律師:係用乜嘢方式? 14 鍾傑文先生:打電話嘅。 15 李澍桓大律師:打電話嘅。佢話畀你知「老闆,啲水缸冇水喎,放晒啲水喎,係咪?」 16 鍾傑文先生:係,冇錯。 17 李澍桓大律師:咁你有冇畀啲咩嘢指示佢? 18 鍾傑文先生:有,就「你有冇同管理處--問過管理處?」佢話「有,佢哋做嗰啲消防水缸工 19 程,咁就放晒啲水。」「咁有冇掛牌㗎佢哋?」佢話「有嘅」,佢問咗嘅,係。 20 李澍桓大律師:撇開有冇掛牌呢個問題先,因為嗰個唔係你處理。 21 鍾傑文先生:唔。 22 李澍桓大律師:可唔可以咁講,喺2025 年10 月16 號5 點前嘅呢段時間,當你同唐先生 23 通完呢個電話之後,你至少知道有三座嘅消防水缸係冇水嘅? 24 鍾傑文先生:係。 25 李澍桓大律師:同唔同意? 26 鍾傑文先生:同意。 27 李澍桓大律師:而要令到個--而冇水嘅原因就係因為佢哋要做鋪磚執修嘅工程,係咪? 28 鍾傑文先生:係,冇錯。 29 李澍桓大律師:剛才我哋都講過,要令到唔係淨係佢冇水,而係唔會再有水注滿番呢個水 30 缸,就必然要停咗個上水泵嘅? 31 鍾傑文先生:冇錯。 32 李澍桓大律師:所以起碼喺10 月16 號2025 年,其實照道理,你已經知道係停咗個上水 33 泵個囉喎? 34 鍾傑文先生:係,可以咁講。 35 李澍桓大律師:唔係可唔可以咁講。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第六天

19 本謄本由Epiq 編製 鍾傑文先生:係。 1 李澍桓大律師:你知唔知? 2 鍾傑文先生:我推測到,都可以講話知嘅。 3 李澍桓大律師:唔停嘅話,... 4 鍾傑文先生:做唔到呢件事。 5 李澍桓大律師:...就只會不斷注水㗎咋嘛? 6 鍾傑文先生:係,冇錯。 7 李澍桓大律師:所以如果你--你有消防裝備嘅經驗㗎嘛,你係專家嚟㗎嘛? 8 鍾傑文先生:係,係。 9 李澍桓大律師:所以如果佢要放清個水缸整入面,定必然起碼要閂咗個上水泵㗎嘛? 10 鍾傑文先生:冇錯,冇錯。 11 李澍桓大律師:你嘅講法就話分分鐘閂埋個加壓泵添? 12 鍾傑文先生:係。 13 李澍桓大律師:所以10 月16 號,呢個就係你知道嘅事情? 14 鍾傑文先生:冇錯。 15 李澍桓大律師:我哋再睇落去第6 段,就我哋知道就係10 月17 號就繼續,簡單啲嚟講就 16 佢同其他同事就去做埋另外剩番落嚟嗰五座嘅工程,係咪? 17 鍾傑文先生:係,係,冇錯。 18 李澍桓大律師:同樣地,佢都話咗畀你知,另外嗰五座個水缸都冇水嘅,係咪? 19 鍾傑文先生:佢冇話畀我聽。 20 李澍桓大律師:佢冇話畀你知? 21 鍾傑文先生:係。 22 李澍桓大律師:咁你有冇問? 23 鍾傑文先生:我有問,不過就唔係問佢哋。 24 李澍桓大律師:你問邊個? 25 鍾傑文先生:我問管理處鄭小姐。 26 李澍桓大律師:幾時問? 27 鍾傑文先生:10 月17 號。 28 李澍桓大律師:幾點? 29 鍾傑文先生:12 點06 分。 30 李澍桓大律師:係,用乜嘢方式去問? 31 鍾傑文先生:打電話。 32 李澍桓大律師:打畀置邦嘅鄭小姐? 33 鍾傑文先生:冇錯。 34 李澍桓大律師:係,你問啲乜嘢? 35 鍾傑文先生:我話「嗰度掛咗牌,係咪?」佢話「係,嗰度做啲水缸工程,一樣咁樣。」咁 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第六天

20 本謄本由Epiq 編製 我同佢講「你做完之後,你要畀番個除牌紙我」,即係SDN 嘅第三部分,恢復完個 1 系統,連埋相關嘅251。我喺呢一度我係喺呢一段時間我先諗起,我嗰陣時整呢樣 2 嘢嘅時候,我都諗唔起呢一件事嘅,直到我去打電話去查番個紀錄,所以我好肯定 3 係12 點06 分。 4 李澍桓大律師:所以其實喺2025 年10 月16 號,你就知道其實似乎有個整水缸嘅工程? 5 鍾傑文先生:係。 6 李澍桓大律師:仲要講緊嘅似乎唔係三座,係全個屋苑都做,係咪? 7 鍾傑文先生:係。 8 李澍桓大律師:所以定必然你都可以理解到,你換完呢啲部件,其實你係冇辦法進行測試 9 嘅? 10 鍾傑文先生:冇錯,哪怕... 11 李澍桓大律師:聽--對你公平啲,不如試下聽我問題回答? 12 鍾傑文先生:好。 13 李澍桓大律師:我哋喺呢個聽證會入面聽過其中一個居民嘗試去救火嘅時候。 14 鍾傑文先生:係。 15 李澍桓大律師:佢就話個喉轆開咗,啲水洗手都仲可能可以,沖身就一定唔能夠,呢個係一 16 個唔理想嘅情況,係咪? 17 鍾傑文先生:肯定。 18 李澍桓大律師:雖然我知道呢個掛牌唔係你做嘅。10 月16 號,當你知道我做咗一橛,係冇 19 辦法做埋另一部分嘅工作嘅時候,有冇諗過直接同置邦講「喂,我唔做得呢個工 20 程,我做完試唔到嘅話,好大劑嘅」? 21 鍾傑文先生:我當時嚟講冇諗到。 22 陸啟康法官:我想問一問,你頭先好強調你10 月17 號你同鄭小姐通過電話。 23 鍾傑文先生:係。 24 陸啟康法官:就以前諗唔到嘅,佢話你睇番紀錄,你有冇嗰個同鄭小姐通話嗰個時間? 25 鍾傑文先生:有,有,12 點06 分。 26 陸啟康法官:有電話? 27 鍾傑文先生:有電話。 28 陸啟康法官:可唔可以畀我哋睇? 29 鍾傑文先生:可以。 30 李澍桓大律師:主席,我可以一陣間一次過處理,因為我仲有另外一啲紀錄我會試下。 31 陸啟康法官:明白,如果你會處理就得。 32 李澍桓大律師:好,但係正如我剛才所講,到最後我哋知道決定都係照做,16、17 號換咗 33 啲水喉嘅嗰啲有關相關部分嘅零件先,係咪? 34 鍾傑文先生:係。 35 李澍桓大律師:但係唔理想,因為測試唔到。下一個執修嘅工程,我哋知道就去到11 月。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第六天

21 本謄本由Epiq 編製 鍾傑文先生:係,冇錯。 1 李澍桓大律師:咁呢度我知道有另一位同事李俊賢先生一陣間都會作供嘅。 2 鍾傑文先生:係。 3 李澍桓大律師:不過我都想你睇一睇佢喺提供畀委員會嗰個供詞上面嘅一啲講法先。 4 鍾傑文先生:好。 5 李澍桓大律師:咁喺個文件冊第1537 頁,我哋見到就係李生嘅供詞。咁然之後如果我哋去 6 睇1538 頁第5 段,咁基本上佢講緊就係11 月19 號上午11 點,佢就同黃健華 7 到達宏福苑進行執修工程,咁當日主要職責就係替換宏福苑嘅消防警鐘同埋警報啟 8 動裝置,俗稱「扲手」,及大廈地下上水泵嘅斷容器,呢個即係一個斷路掣,係 9 咪? 10 鍾傑文先生:係嘞。 11 李澍桓大律師:咁就喺執修期間因為要更換消防警鐘及扲手,有機會有觸電風險,所以要關 12 閉消防泵總電掣才可以施工。喺呢度停一停,首先就住李先生所講嘅呢一個供詞話 13 要閂總電掣,以你嘅理解,當然我哋會再問佢,佢講緊嘅係唔係就係嗰個刀掣? 14 鍾傑文先生:冇錯。 15 李澍桓大律師:佢話一定要閂咗呢一個總電源先至做得到呢個工程,你同唔同意佢嘅做法? 16 鍾傑文先生:同意。 17 李澍桓大律師:即係呢個係一個合適嘅做法? 18 鍾傑文先生:適合嘅。 19 李澍桓大律師:跟住佢再講「本人自己一個人巡查咗宏福苑全部八座大廈地下嘅消防泵總電 20 掣,發現都已關閉,因為宏福苑嘅消防泵總電掣係同時接駁消防水泵同埋消防警鐘 21 電源,而每一棟大廈嘅警鐘都全棟相連,因此全部八棟大廈嘅消防水泵及警鐘必定 22 冇電及停止運作。」剛才我哋講過,呢度停一停,就係閂咗刀掣電源嘅話呢,個加 23 壓泵同個警鐘都唔會運作? 24 鍾傑文先生:係,冇錯。 25 李澍桓大律師:所以佢嘅講法都合理嘅? 26 鍾傑文先生:合理嘅。 27 李澍桓大律師:「本人立即將以上情況告知喺現場嘅黃健華」,即係黃生。 28 鍾傑文先生:係。 29 李澍桓大律師:「宏泰董事鍾傑文」,即係鍾生你,及宏泰嘅張小姐。呢度我想停一停,我 30 哋知道你提供咗有七張WhatsApp 嘅截圖。 31 鍾傑文先生:係。 32 李澍桓大律師:咁嗰個我嘅理解就一個群組入面。 33 鍾傑文先生:係。 34 李澍桓大律師:就你唔喺度嘅。 35 鍾傑文先生:我唔喺度嘅。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第六天

22 本謄本由Epiq 編製 李澍桓大律師:即係你唔喺嗰個群組入面嘅,咁點樣得知有呢個群組㗎? 1 鍾傑文先生:張小姐最後就話畀我聽有呢個群組嘅,而群組入面個「你」字,嗰個就係張小 2 姐,係嘞。 3 李澍桓大律師:咁不如我哋就睇睇嗰啲WhatsApp,R1/686 到692 頁嘅,我哋由686 開 4 開始睇。如果我哋最頂嗰度,呢一個為例,就係宏福苑A 座宏仁閣。 5 鍾傑文先生:唔嗯。 6 李澍桓大律師:然之後我哋見到有一啲細字嘅,9757 有個電話,我哋知道呢個就應該係李 7 俊賢先生嘅電話? 8 鍾傑文先生:係。 9 李澍桓大律師:Jack(譯音)就係應該一位兼職工叫梁文仲(譯音)或者梁仲文(譯音), 10 係咪? 11 鍾傑文先生:係。 12 李澍桓大律師:梁文仲先生,係咪? 13 鍾傑文先生:梁文仲。 14 李澍桓大律師:佢就應該係負責當日去換嗰啲照明系統嘅? 15 鍾傑文先生:係,冇錯。 16 李澍桓大律師:你頭先講就係「你」就係張小姐,嗰個文員,係咪? 17 鍾傑文先生:冇錯。 18 李澍桓大律師:如果我哋上番呢個WhatsApp 嘅頂頂嗰度,我想睇番原本呢度就講緊更換咗 19 嘅一啲喉嘴嗰個存檔嗰啲照片,係咪? 20 鍾傑文先生:冇錯。 21 李澍桓大律師:下一張都係一啲新舊喉噴嘴嘅一個情況。 22 鍾傑文先生:𠼘嗯。 23 李澍桓大律師:咁所以如果上面呢兩張似乎就係講緊10 月份嘅時間? 24 鍾傑文先生:未必,應該係11 月17 至18 呢段時間,因為我哋就做呢個維修,就電嗰部分 25 係由17 號到到26 號嘅,當時嚟講,就係淨係梁文仲去做,然後19 號嘅時候,就 26 李俊賢先落去做警鐘、扲手咁樣。當時嚟講去開呢個WhatsApp 嘅紀錄係純粹畀張 27 嘉文(譯音)去整番個員工報告咁樣。 28 李澍桓大律師:好,理解。 29 鍾傑文先生:係。 30 李澍桓大律師:所以你就話--跟住我哋再睇,碌落少少,我哋就見到11 月19 日(週 31 三),即係星期三。 32 鍾傑文先生:唔。 33 李澍桓大律師:然之後我哋見到就加入咗李生入去呢個群組,係咪? 34 鍾傑文先生:係,冇錯。 35 李澍桓大律師:然之後李生喺11 點54 分嘅時候,就寫咗一句「消防泵被關」,係咪? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第六天

23 本謄本由Epiq 編製 鍾傑文先生:冇錯。 1 李澍桓大律師:咁我其實喺呢啲WhatsApp,呢七張入面基本都係一個同樣嘅訊息,就係消 2 防泵被關」,我老實講,我自己睇呢個訊息嘅話,佢就淨係話畀我知閂咗個消防泵 3 啫,就冇話到閂到個總電掣,咁呢個係唔係都係當時你嘅理解? 4 鍾傑文先生:唔係。 5 李澍桓大律師:我一陣間再問你,既然你話唔係淨係閂消防泵。呢個訊息我哋見到,譬如去 6 番頭先即係第一張嗰度為例,我哋見到就係話去到11 點54 分出咗一個咁樣嘅資訊 7 之後,以你所知,其實之後仲有冇訊息? 8 鍾傑文先生:我係事後先知有呢個群組,所以當時嚟講... 9 李澍桓大律師:唔係我問你嘅問題。 10 鍾傑文先生:係。 11 李澍桓大律師:我問你嘅問題係你事後知道有呢個群組,你睇過㗎嘛? 12 鍾傑文先生:係。 13 李澍桓大律師:你睇過先決定,然之後將有關嘅資料提交畀獨立委員會,亦都喺較早時你應 14 該都畀咗警方㗎嘛? 15 鍾傑文先生:係,冇錯。 16 李澍桓大律師:我個問題係就以686 頁呢一個截圖為例,11:54 嘅呢個訊息之後,以你所 17 記得呢個群組入面仲有冇其他訊息? 18 鍾傑文先生:呢個群組關於消防泵被關,冇。 19 李澍桓大律師:關於任何嘢喇,因為呢個群組似乎為工作而製備出嚟成立㗎嘛? 20 鍾傑文先生:係。 21 李澍桓大律師:講嘅定必然係宏福苑A 座嘅情況。 22 鍾傑文先生:冇錯,係。 23 李澍桓大律師:如此類推,其他嗰啲就係B 座、C 座嗰啲群組,唔會講約去宵夜盛,係咪? 24 鍾傑文先生:當然唔會。 25 李澍桓大律師:所以呢個11:54 嘅訊息之後,我個問題好簡單,你有睇過呢個群組嘅?以 26 你所記得,11:54 之後仲有冇其他嘅訊息? 27 鍾傑文先生:我可唔可以澄清,就係我唔喺呢個群組入面,我冇睇入面之後仲有冇訊息,我 28 真係答唔到呢個問題。 29 李澍桓大律師:我哋或者一陣間留低,問下李生可唔可以幫到我哋。 30 鍾傑文先生:好,好。 31 李澍桓大律師:剛才我閘斷咗你嘅,你就話你嘅理解雖然個訊息就淨係話「消防泵被關」, 32 你嘅理解就係話其實唔係淨係閂咗消防泵嘅,咁你不如解釋畀我哋知你仲知道啲乜 33 同埋點解會知道? 34 鍾傑文先生:因為張嘉文係話咗畀我聽嘅,咁李俊賢佢首先係打畀張嘉文,「佢咁仲繼唔繼 35 續做㗎?」講個情況畀佢聽,然後張嘉文就話畀我聽。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第六天

24 本謄本由Epiq 編製 李澍桓大律師:等一等,你剛才話李生就要等應唔應該繼續做? 1 鍾傑文先生:係。 2 李澍桓大律師:即係佢都覺得可能唔應該繼續做落去? 3 鍾傑文先生:係,咁畀人閂咗,睇下究竟係點樣,因為佢要同我哋報告。咁我當時嚟講,我 4 就同張嘉文講「你叫佢睇下係唔係八座都閂晒。」咁佢講得好清楚係個刀掣閂咗 5 嘅,因為我哋亦都係有嗰方面嘅資訊,就知道閂咗刀掣,個警鐘扲手先停,而佢係 6 做警鐘扲手,所以我哋好肯定個資訊係閂嗰個刀掣嘅。 7 李澍桓大律師:咁佢就問攞指示,即係總之到最後你亦都... 8 鍾傑文先生:我畀咗兩個指示佢。 9 李澍桓大律師:「咁個刀掣閂咗,總電源閂咗,仲繼唔繼續做?鍾老闆。」你畀咩嘢指示? 10 鍾傑文先生:我雖然冇直接講,但係我意思係畀佢繼續做維修嘅。 11 李澍桓大律師:首先你冇直接講,即係你冇講出嚟,冇人知你諗乜,定係你有同人講過,唔 12 係直接同佢講? 13 鍾傑文先生:我唔肯定,我一定唔係同佢講,我係同張嘉文講嘅,咁佢可能喺個過程裏面係 14 都問過,我可能答咗嘅,總之當時嚟講我唔反對佢,我唔會叫佢唔做,呢個都係我 15 認同嘅。 16 李澍桓大律師:所以19 號如果簡單啲嚟講,你可唔可以都確認無論直接、間接又好,你畀 17 咗個指示就係話,就住閂咗個總掣都繼續做? 18 鍾傑文先生:係。 19 李澍桓大律師:呢個係你畀嘅指示? 20 鍾傑文先生:係。 21 李澍桓大律師:而你亦都知道做完呢一個更換嘅部件嘅程序之後,尋日都講過,就做唔到測 22 試嘅。 23 鍾傑文先生:係。 24 李澍桓大律師:不如而家問下你,回想番,起碼如果唔係10 月嘅,11 月19 號當日我唔做 25 嘅話,起碼就唔關你事先,冇人可以埋怨你先,同唔同意? 26 鍾傑文先生:唔同意。 27 李澍桓大律師:咁又唔係你去閂總掣,根據你嘅講法,咁你亦都知道我個工作冇辦法完成 28 嘅,因為有一部分我係做唔到,又可能會引致一啲責任,係咪? 29 鍾傑文先生:唔會。 30 李澍桓大律師:唔會? 31 鍾傑文先生:係,你繼續問。 32 李澍桓大律師:即係你覺得冇問題,照做咗先? 33 鍾傑文先生:係,因為我哋未測試,唔係唔測試。 34 李澍桓大律師:第二樣嘢我想畀你睇嘅,如果咁講,你嘅講法就係話我知道嗰個總電掣係畀 35 人閂咗嘅,你話因為有個電話或者同張小姐、李生溝通咗嘅。有另一個似乎資料來 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第六天

25 本謄本由Epiq 編製 源當時係畀咗你嘅,有兩個錄影嘅片段都係提交咗警方,亦都提交咗畀我哋委員 1 會,係咪? 2 鍾傑文先生:係。 3 李澍桓大律師:你之前有睇過㗎嘛? 4 鍾傑文先生:有。 5 李澍桓大律師:我想你睇一睇呢兩個片段。第一個片段,以我所知就係關於F 座。 6 鍾傑文先生:係。 7 (播放短片) 8 [男聲:呢個宏福苑F 座個上水泵都係閂咗㗎嘞,咁我估佢應該全部閂晒嘅,而家有G、 9 H、F 都係閂咗嘅。] 10 (短片播放完畢) 11 李澍桓大律師:首先... 12 陸啟康法官:呢個係個(English Spoken)喺? 13 李澍桓大律師:都係R1 嗰個文件冊。 14 陸啟康法官:R1 嘅? 15 李澍桓大律師:因為呢個係一個影片檔,所以佢唔係喺嗰個文件冊入面。 16 陸啟康法官:明白。 17 李澍桓大律師:係喺有一個R1 嘅(English Spoken ),應該係寫住(English 18 Spoken)嘅。就住呢條片段,我哋睇你可唔可以確認。首先,第一係黃生錄緊片 19 段? 20 鍾傑文先生:唔嗯。 21 李澍桓大律師:根據我哋睇到嘅就係2025 年11 月19 日影嘅一個片段嚟嘅。 22 鍾傑文先生:冇錯。 23 李澍桓大律師:我哋睇緊嘅係個泵房,唔係加壓泵房? 24 鍾傑文先生:認同。 25 李澍桓大律師:我哋睇緊嗰個係個上水泵,係咪? 26 鍾傑文先生:冇錯,冇錯。 27 李澍桓大律師:第二條片段係關於G 座嘅。 28 鍾傑文先生:唔。 29 (播放短片) 30 [男聲:咁電掣電源就閂咗嘅,呢座應該係“G"irl 座,個電掣就off 咗嘅,咁同埋上水 31 泵就拆開咗㗎嘞,佢應該就可能換掣,換呢啲掣,就未駁通嘅,而家斷咗口嘅個 32 水。] 33 (短片播放完畢) 34 李澍桓大律師:同樣地,我哋睇緊呢條片段入面都係11 月19 號由黃健華先生影嘅,係咪? 35 鍾傑文先生:冇錯。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第六天

26 本謄本由Epiq 編製 李澍桓大律師:睇緊嘅係G座入面嘅泵房,並非加壓泵房? 1 鍾傑文先生:冇錯。 2 李澍桓大律師:睇緊嘅係上水泵? 3 鍾傑文先生:係。 4 李澍桓大律師:頭先佢影過一個板面,就係話個電源閂咗嘅? 5 鍾傑文先生:係。 6 李澍桓大律師:嗰個係個上水泵嘅一個獨立電源,我哋而家畫面見到紅色版面嗰個掣? 7 鍾傑文先生:係,冇錯。 8 李澍桓大律師:首先第一,似乎佢講緊嘅都唔係講緊話個刀掣嘅情況個喎? 9 鍾傑文先生:係。 10 李澍桓大律師:但係我哋剛才都講到,其實早於10 月19 號,係唔係應該係你做水喉執修? 11 鍾傑文先生:10 月16 號同埋19 號。 12 李澍桓大律師:16 號,做水喉執修嘅時候,其實呢個唔係新鮮事,你都應該理解到八座水缸 13 要做,八座嘅上水泵都應該係閂咗㗎喇嘛? 14 鍾傑文先生:係。 15 李澍桓大律師:點解會去到11 月19 號好似--唔好介意我咁講,發現新大陸咁樣要影出嚟 16 呢? 17 鍾傑文先生:喺呢度我講一講,個背景係我叫黃健華去了解嗰件事,咁佢睇咗個G 座之後, 18 佢就個結論就係話畀我聽佢哋唔只淨係做水缸,因為連個上水喉嗰個泵入水都拆埋 19 做咗,我哋真係唔知佢入面仲有咩嘢其他工程做,即係所以我哋當時嚟講,我哋亦 20 都唔知道究竟成個維修工程會涉及啲乜嘢嘢,咁就知道有人掛咗牌,唔只淨係講個 21 水缸個問題,所以我就叫佢將呢個情況講畀鄭小姐聽,係所有系統都閂咗。 22 李澍桓大律師:但係我關注嘅地方就係11 月19 號,唔好講10 月,講11 月19 號,你發 23 現原來似乎而家先發現上水泵都已經有個咁嘅間題,根據你所講,就唔只淨係上水 24 泵,即係總電掣都畀人閂埋,係咪? 25 鍾傑文先生:係。 26 李澍桓大律師:你當時都仍然似乎而家先發現上水泵已經有咁嘅問題,根據你所講唔就唔只 27 淨係上水泵添,總電掣都畀人閂埋,係咪? 28 鍾傑文先生:係。 29 李澍桓大律師:你當時都仍然做一個決定,就係唔好理,試唔到就試唔,做咗先囉? 30 鍾傑文先生:其實--我可唔可以詳細少少回應? 31 李澍桓大律師:當然可以。 32 鍾傑文先生:我哋一般嘅做法係點樣呢?我哋知道有人哋掛咗牌,停咗個系統,(English 33 Spoken)停咗,喺呢段期間裏面我哋唔會做完工測試,原因係咩嘢呢?如果我做 34 咗個員工測試,我要完工,我要十四日裏面出證書。但係我明知佢而家個系統係停 35 緊,哪怕我開咗佢做完,你點知佢幾時會完成。即係(English Spoken)係有 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第六天

27 本謄本由Epiq 編製 一個矛盾點喺度,所以我哋一路個做法就係等你完工,畀埋文件我哋,係除咗牌, 1 你哋嗰度完咗,我哋再安排測試,就係咁樣。 2 李澍桓大律師:呢個係你全面嘅想畀委員會嘅一個了解嚟嘅? 3 鍾傑文先生:係,一般做法,所以點解會有咁嘅行動。 4 李澍桓大律師:我講嘅唔係一般做法,我講嘅係我哋針對宏福苑嘅做法,好唔好? 5 鍾傑文先生:係,好。 6 李澍桓大律師:睇下你同唔同意我一啲理解或者啲睇法。 7 鍾傑文先生:唔。 8 李澍桓大律師:做完年檢,作為註冊消防裝備嘅承辦商,檢查完,做番張證書報備番邊啲出 9 錯,邊啲要維修。嚴格上嚟講,宏泰消防嘅工作就住年檢就完成㗎嘞? 10 鍾傑文先生:冇錯。 11 李澍桓大律師:除非你嘅檢測工作出錯,如果唔係嘅話,消防系統有啲咩嘢問題就唔關宏泰 12 消防事,係咪? 13 鍾傑文先生:冇錯。 14 李澍桓大律師:當你落標亦都跟住接受去置邦嘅聘請,10 月、11 月做執修嘅呢個工程嘅時 15 候,唔好介意我好似好粗俗咁講「唔掂就好地地」,你一接觸呢個裝備去進行維修- 16 -執修,你就要承擔一個責任,係咪? 17 鍾傑文先生:唔嗯。 18 李澍桓大律師:你「唔嗯」,同唔同意? 19 鍾傑文先生:同意。 20 李澍桓大律師:因為我哋都知道尤其是喺處理呢啲消防裝備上面,唔係話我求其搵個電工、 21 水工就可以做㗎嘛? 22 鍾傑文先生:係,冇錯。 23 李澍桓大律師:要好似鍾生你有專業牌照監督之下先可以做㗎嘛? 24 鍾傑文先生:係。 25 李澍桓大律師:你更換完,如果個部件假設之下有問題,不能運作,你就有責任要去更換, 26 要確保大廈消防安全? 27 鍾傑文先生:冇錯,係。 28 李澍桓大律師:咁呢個當然就係測試到嘅情況。 29 鍾傑文先生:唔嗯。 30 李澍桓大律師:測試唔到,你就接觸咗呢個消防裝備系統,做咗維修,但係又唔知佢係唔係 31 運作正常,我睇下你同唔同意或者你自己覺唔覺得其實都有一個好大嘅責任喺度個 32 喎? 33 鍾傑文先生:我唔同意有個好大嘅責任,原因係咩嘢呢?我哋做呢個維修工程係佢本--即係 34 我哋發現佢嘅時候已經係(English Spoken )咗嘅狀態,我哋換完,佢都係 35 (English Spoken)嘅狀態,但係其實會更好。我可唔可以再講多少少? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第六天

28 本謄本由Epiq 編製 李澍桓大律師:當然,當然,可以。 1 鍾傑文先生:因為發生咗火警之後有個消防員打過畀我,佢想用個入水掣,佢見到新「確 2 確」嘅,我當時就話畀佢聽,「阿Sir,用得㗎,雖然我冇出證書。」如果我嗰陣 3 時冇換到嘅話,亦都個系統閂咗,消防會唔會用呀?我唔清楚。所以我個人覺得喺 4 做呢個維修嘅工程只有可以改善,雖然冇證書去作實。 5 李澍桓大律師:即係我唔知中文點講,即係如果以你嘅講法就係「(English 6 Spoken)」? 7 鍾傑文先生:我認為係。 8 李澍桓大律師:喺11 月份嗰個執修工程入面,10 月我哋知道你冇落過去。 9 鍾傑文先生:係。 10 李澍桓大律師:去到26 號大火當日,似乎都仲你哋宏泰消防係有工人喺嗰度嘅,係咪? 11 鍾傑文先生:冇錯。 12 李澍桓大律師:19 號就星期三,20 號、21 號、22 號似乎都應該要開工嘅? 13 鍾傑文先生:係。 14 李澍桓大律師:你哋係唔係嗰幾日都有進行執修? 15 鍾傑文先生:冇錯,係,除咗星期日。 16 李澍桓大律師:24 號就星期一,25 號星期二,26 號不幸地火災當日就星期三,我哋知道 17 就去到中午喥嘅時間你哋就清場,就執嘢走嘅。知道你哋就清場執嘢走?111940 18 鍾傑文先生:係,冇錯。 19 李澍桓大律師:喺夾埋六日半嘅時間,鍾生,你作為有牌照嘅人士有冇落過現場,尤其是當 20 你知道原來呢個系統又閂,嗰個系統又閂,你有冇親自落去現場了解過? 21 鍾傑文先生:冇嘅。 22 李澍桓大律師:有冇咩嘢原因你唔落去? 23 鍾傑文先生:都有嘅,喺呢一度我都想講,就係當時真係個心情係好差,我亦都唔係好記得 24 到晒所有嘢,直到即係睇到個bundle,睇到啲證供嘅時候,我就再諗下其實我幾 25 時有聯絡過,我記得我係有聯絡過,因為我哋一般程序係會問佢拎個除牌紙,攞 26 (English Spoken)。然後到我知道咗嘅時候,我就睇番啲WhatsApp 紀錄, 27 喺11 月21 號嘅時候,鄭小姐send 咗水缸相畀我,嗰啲信缸相就係啲轉運缸、 28 消防缸,有個牌寫住幾時維修好,都係好耐咁樣。然後我就畀咗個電話佢--因為其 29 實我真係唔係好記得咗,但係直到我查到個電話紀錄,我畀咗個電話佢,其實我就 30 係話「你做完之後畀番個除牌紙我,畀番個(English Spoken)我,我哋就再 31 做跟住做測試」咁樣。 32 李澍桓大律師:你講緊同鄭小姐嘅呢個對話係大火當日,之前定係... 33 鍾傑文先生:唔係,之前。 34 李澍桓大律師:之前? 35 鍾傑文先生:21 號,11 月21 號。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第六天

29 本謄本由Epiq 編製 李澍桓大律師:佢就話做完,你叫佢畀番啲除牌紙畀你,係咪? 1 鍾傑文先生:係嘞,係嘞。 2 李澍桓大律師:所以其實我係知道嘅,即係我知道咗成件事係咁樣,我哋一路都等個文件。 3 李澍桓大律師:頭先睇嗰兩條片段,根據你嘅口供,你自己講,你就話其實係由黃生喺一個 4 宏泰嘅WhatsApp,即係宏泰消防嘅WhatsApp 群組,佢係透過嗰個群組送畀你 5 嘅? 6 鍾傑文先生:係,冇錯。 7 李澍桓大律師:我相信同樣地,呢個宏泰WhatsApp 群組入面都係主要講工作上面嘅嘢? 8 鍾傑文先生:係,冇錯。 9 李澍桓大律師:當然可能有啲唔關宏福苑嘅嘢,但係有冇咩嘢原因你淨係抽呢兩條片段出 10 嚟,但係唔將相關WhatsApp 紀錄提交畀警方或者畀委員會? 11 鍾傑文先生:冇,冇咩嘢特別隱瞞。 12 李澍桓大律師:如果即係我問你會唔會落意將呢啲群組交番畀我哋,你可以透過你律師交畀 13 委員會? 14 鍾傑文先生:可以,可以。 15 李澍桓大律師:主席,我留意到個時間,可唔可以我哋做個小休,然之後我睇下覆核一下仲 16 有冇遺漏嘅議題。 17 陸啟康法官:我哋個聽證會休息十分鐘。 18

19 11 時23 分聆訊押後 20 11 時33 分聆訊恢復 21

22 李澍桓大律師:鍾先生,我而家嚟到基本上我提問嘅最後一個環節㗎嘞。 23 鍾傑文先生:好嘅。 24 李澍桓大律師:我想講一講關於大火時候同埋之後發生嘅嘢。我哋根據你提供畀委員會嘅書 25 面口供呢,你就有講到,首先喺大概11 月26 號,我睇緊第11 段,或者畀你睇 26 番。如果根據個時間性,應該仲係講緊大火之前,因為我哋知道大概兩點零先至起 27 火。 28 鍾傑文先生:冇錯。 29 李澍桓大律師:喺下晝1 點28 分嘅時候,你就話林先生,我相信呢個講緊置邦林文欣先 30 生,係咪? 31 鍾傑文先生:冇錯。 32 李澍桓大律師:就因為見到宏泰嘅師傅完工,即係你哋宏泰嘅消防嗰啲師傅走喇,咁就打咗 33 電話畀你就話要儘快出呢一個251 嘅證書嘅。 34 鍾傑文先生:冇錯。 35 李澍桓大律師:跟住你就話「因為消防處就向佢追問」,而你就答番佢「由於連接系統部分 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第六天

30 本謄本由Epiq 編製 不能出證書,因為警鐘扲手、消防栓、消防喉系統,因為宏泰工人喺檢查發現嘅時 1 候,消防水缸就冇儲水,而供水以及消防泵嘅電源都已經被關閉」。咁所以你就話 2 「喺呢個通話過程入面,林先生就知道消防泵已被大維修師傅關掉。」 3 鍾傑文先生:唔。 4 李澍桓大律師:你就當時有向佢要求提供掛牌紙,即係消防裝置嘅關閉通知書,佢就未能即 5 時提供,就表示會稍後交番畀你嘅。 6 鍾傑文先生:係。 7 李澍桓大律師:咁呢個以你嘅講法其實就係喺大火之前最後一次同置邦嗰邊有接觸嘅一個通 8 訊嘞? 9 鍾傑文先生:係,冇錯。 10 李澍桓大律師:呢個係咪用電話? 11 鍾傑文先生:冇錯。 12 李澍桓大律師:跟住下一段落開始,第12 段你標題就係火災之後勒,咁似乎就喺大概3 點 13 10 分,你嘅講法就係林先生就再次打畀你就話畀你知有火警發生,對話中佢就詢問 14 如何重新啟動個消防系統,你就建議番佢聯絡宏業所聘用嘅註冊消防承辦商,因為 15 佢哋先至係掛牌同埋關閉電源嘅人。 16 李澍桓大律師:咁跟住我哋再見到幾個段落,你都係有講及就係叫黃生返番去會堂嗰度,宏 17 福苑嘅現場,睇下有冇嘢可以幫手,係咪? 18 鍾傑文先生:唔。 19 李澍桓大律師:「唔」嘅意思「係」? 20 鍾傑文先生:係,冇錯。 21 李澍桓大律師:其中譬如第14 段或者你之前都講,就其實一路你都似乎要追問攞呢個掛牌 22 紙,你講緊係咪原先停嗰個裝置嘅掛牌紙,定還是係講緊恢復番個系統,嗰個251 23 嗰張證書呀? 24 鍾傑文先生:佢哋係同一樣嚟㗎。 25 李澍桓大律師:吓? 26 鍾傑文先生:係同一份(English Spoken)嚟嘅。 27 李澍桓大律師:同一份(English Spoken)? 28 鍾傑文先生:係嘞。 29 李澍桓大律師:唔。即係就係第二欄嗰度話要納修啲乜嘢嘢。 30 鍾傑文先生:第三欄,第三部分,第二欄係延期。 31 李澍桓大律師:係。所以呢一張文件對於你嚟講其實有啲乜嘢咁重要呢?因為其實最先申請 32 或者通知消防停個裝置,其實唔係你㗎嘛,好似你咁講。 33 鍾傑文先生:啱呀,冇錯。 34 李澍桓大律師:其實你要知道嘅就係幾時完咗個掛牌,咁我咪去做番個測試咋嘛,如果根據 35 你嘅講法,係咪? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第六天

31 本謄本由Epiq 編製 鍾傑文先生:冇錯,我就係要做番個測試,出番個FS251,我要佢完咗先,我唔可以喺佢個 1 系統officially 暫停緊嘅時候,我做呢個測試,我覺得咁樣做係自欺欺人嘅, 2 我認為係咁。 3 李澍桓大律師:我相信即係同好多市民一樣,去到起碼--如果唔係之前嘅,你去到26 號當 4 日6 點、6 點零,其實都知道個火勢係好猛烈㗎嘞,係咪呀? 5 李澍桓大律師:係呀。 6 鍾傑文先生:亦都知道燒嘅唔係一座大廈喇。 7 鍾傑文先生:冇錯。 8 李澍桓大律師:唔。咁我相信你都會--之後我哋見到你都配合警方嘅調查,做咗個口供喇。 9 鍾傑文先生:冇錯。 10 李澍桓大律師:亦都配合委員會調查做咗個口供喇。 11 鍾傑文先生:冇錯。 12 李澍桓大律師:儘量將你所知嘅嘢都交代。 13 鍾傑文先生:冇錯,冇錯。 14 李澍桓大律師:呢個其實都係對你公道,雖然唔係我哋原先所知嘅嘢嘅,我就想你睇一睇有 15 一個通訊嘅截圖。 16 鍾傑文先生:唔。 17 李澍桓大律師:呢個應該係H3,第6393 頁。 18 鍾傑文先生:唔。 19 李澍桓大律師:6793 頁,6797 頁,係。因為你嘅書面口供就冇交代過11 月27 號嘅嘢。 20 鍾傑文先生:係呀,係呀。 21 李澍桓大律師:但係我哋經置邦提交嘅一個截圖信訊息呢。 22 鍾傑文先生:唔。 23 李澍桓大律師:即係訊息截圖呢,呢個就係係由林文欣先生嘅手機截圖出嚟嘅。 24 鍾傑文先生:唔。 25 李澍桓大律師:如果你睇11 月27 日週四,即係大火嘅第二日,我哋見到就“Hi”,就係 26 上午1 點25 分。跟住1 點27 分就「鍾生麻煩你睇下有冇宏泰申請掛牌啲 27 form,如果有send 畀我,thanks。」,咁1 點27 分,跟住我哋見到1 點29 28 分就有一個語音通話,就五十七分鐘嘅。 29 鍾傑文先生:係。 30 李澍桓大律師:首先,因為如果根據我哋目前嘅了解,其實申請掛牌從來都唔係宏泰消防, 31 係咪呀? 32 鍾傑文先生:冇錯。 33 李澍桓大律師:當然或者少少對你唔公道,其實你所了解佢問你攞掛牌啲form 嘅時候,其 34 實係究竟問緊你攞乜㗎? 35 鍾傑文先生:我呢度可能詳細少少講,因為個時間係1 點25 分sent 畀我,當時嚟講我睇 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第六天

32 本謄本由Epiq 編製 唔到,我訓緊覺。 1 李澍桓大律師:係,係。 2 鍾傑文先生:直到去打呢個電話,1 點29 分鐘打畀我嘅時候,嘈醒咗我嘅。然後呢我--佢 3 係咪淨係畀咗呢一份你,下面嗰啲嘢冇㗎? 4 李澍桓大律師:有嘅,不過,我想暫時係畀... 5 鍾傑文先生:好呀。 6 李澍桓大律師:我畀你睇埋下一頁先,因為佢應該有兩三頁。 7 鍾傑文先生:係嘞。 8 李澍桓大律師:跟住就再落去,你見到跟住... 9 鍾傑文先生:Okay,呢一頁都okay㗎嘞,可以咁樣㗎嘞。 10 李澍桓大律師:係。 11 鍾傑文先生:你留意下個時間,1 點29 分鐘打畀我,傾咗五十七分鐘,而家我1 點45 分 12 鐘至到1 點55 分鐘,我sent 咗兩樣嘢畀佢。個過程究竟講啲咩嘢呢?佢一開頭 13 就話「喂,你有冇宏泰或者平時掛牌嗰啲SDN 呀?我想睇下」咁樣,因為佢--然 14 後我話「吓,冇喎,我訓緊覺喎,咩嘢事呀?」咁樣。佢話「咁有冇啲(English 15 Spoken)嗰啲form 呀?」我話「我打幾個字畀你喇,你上網搵都得㗎嘞。」咁 16 所以我一路WhatsApp 個電話嘅時候,我一路打消防裝置關閉通知書,然後再講下 17 佢就話「不如你搵埋畀我喇」。我話「好」,咁我咪搵到嗰條(English 18 Spoken)咁sent 畀佢囉,一分blank 嘅form,that’s all。 19 李澍桓大律師:即係呢個就係... 20 鍾傑文先生:當時嗰個情況。 21 李澍桓大律師:五十七分鐘嘅呢個對話?講咗五十七分鐘㗎喎。 22 鍾傑文先生:係呀,部分嘅內容。 23 李澍桓大律師:你記唔記得其實另外仲有講過啲乜㗎? 24 鍾傑文先生:相關嗰啲嘢,其實佢都係講佢嘅感受嘅,咁佢話好驚咁樣囉。 25 李澍桓大律師:佢驚啲乜? 26 鍾傑文先生:佢可能--我唔清楚佢驚啲咩嘢喇,亦都講話咁其實我--因為我當時嚟講,我哋 27 問咗佢咁多次掛牌,我又冇見過嗰張掛牌紙,其實你哋有冇掛到牌,我真係見唔到 28 喎。 29 李澍桓大律師:唔。 30 鍾傑文先生:咁佢話佢有,咁我仲講唔講其他內容落去? 31 李澍桓大律師:因為我... 32 鍾傑文先生:想知道。 33 李澍桓大律師:...想了解嗰五十七分鐘其實發生咗咩嘢,因為唔係一個短嘅對話嚟㗎。 34 鍾傑文先生:係呀,唔係一個短。 35 李澍桓大律師:都接近一個小時可能。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第六天

33 本謄本由Epiq 編製 鍾傑文先生:呢個我記得嘅嘢喇,佢就講話佢好驚,然後就我記得真係有睇過個掛牌紙㗎喎 1 佢話,但係唔係佢見--佢嗰陣時咁樣表達。咁我話--我開住嗰份form,我同佢講 2 「你真係有掛?」佢話「係呀」,「喂,咁而家嗰個警鐘唔響,其實你哋有冇剔到 3 個火警警報系統㗎?有個欄有得剔㗎喎」,佢話「死勒,好似真係唔覺喎」。跟住 4 就--呢個就我記得。 5 李澍桓大律師:呢度停一停呀。 6 鍾傑文先生:係。 7 李澍桓大律師:因為我諗如果我... 8 鍾傑文先生:係,所以我問你。 9 李澍桓大律師:亦都可對對你唔公道,叫你就咁庭上即席去講。因為我相信,第一,可能置 10 邦嗰邊都或者會有相關問題問你喇,我唔知。有幾樣嘢我想睇下你可唔可以協助到 11 委員會嘅。 12 鍾傑文先生:可以。 13 李澍桓大律師:因為暫時我哋就淨係見到兩個信息嘅一啲紀錄。 14 鍾傑文先生:係。 15 李澍桓大律師:一個就係--或者七個群組關於宏泰,但係冇你份嘅。 16 鍾傑文先生:係。 17 李澍桓大律師:即係李生、張小姐嗰啲咁。可唔可以嘗試透過你個律師交番畀委員會,就係 18 嗰幾個群組嘅一個全面嘅通訊紀錄,好唔好呀? 19 鍾傑文先生:可以,可以,可以。 20 李澍桓大律師:第二樣嘢就剛才主席都有問過你,就似乎喺唔同間,你有同呢件--呢個大火 21 相關嘅牽涉方有唔同嘅人士可能有通過電話。 22 鍾傑文先生:唔嗯。 23 李澍桓大律師:未必係文字訊息嘅。 24 鍾傑文先生:唔。 25 李澍桓大律師:咁起碼可唔可以將有關嘅通話紀錄交番畀我哋。 26 鍾傑文先生:可以。 27 李澍桓大律師:等我哋有個可能較為完整嘅時間線... 28 鍾傑文先生:可以,可以呀。 29 李澍桓大律師:...知道邊樣嘢。 30 鍾傑文先生:可以呀。 31 李澍桓大律師:第三,似乎如果係咁嘅,你同置邦嘅林生,其實兩個都應該有一個 32 WhatsApp 嘅溝通嘅一個渠道嘅。 33 鍾傑文先生:係,係呀。 34 李澍桓大律師:同樣地,WhatsApp 又好、嗰啲叫WeChat,微信又好喇。 35 鍾傑文先生:冇微信溝通過。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第六天

34 本謄本由Epiq 編製 李澍桓大律師:即係任何你哋如果有溝通嘅,或者同鄭小姐其他嘅,你都睇下可唔可以搵番 1 個紀錄,透過你個律師交番畀委員會。 2 鍾傑文先生:可以。 3 李澍桓大律師:好唔好呀? 4 鍾傑文先生:可以。 5 李澍桓大律師:另外,我諗如果你話有一啲好似呢個五十七分鐘咁長,其實你都記得有啲內 6 容,但係我覺得對你唔公道,叫你坐喺度講。 7 鍾傑文先生:唔。 8 李澍桓大律師:你睇下可唔可以同你律師商量下,做一個進一步嘅證人口供交代番可能,因 9 為你有機會坐低用文字交代出嚟,可能對你就公道啲,好唔好呀? 10 鍾傑文先生:可以呀。 11 李澍桓大律師:咁我哋靜待你律師同我哋聯絡。主席,就住鍾先生,我冇其他提問。 12 陸啟康法官:各個涉事方,唔該。 13 許偉強資深大律師:主席,ISS 今日可能會有較多嘅問題,但係我想時間上我估計大概可能 14 一個鐘頭左右。 15 陸啟康法官:理解,絕對理解。 16 許偉強資深大律師:唔該。鍾先生,就你尋日同埋今日都作咗供喇。 17 鍾傑文先生:係。 18 許偉強資深大律師:我想--我哋返番去你尋日喺我哋聽證會結束之前你作嘅某啲供詞喇。 19 鍾傑文先生:係。 20 許偉強資深大律師:我想理解多少少。 21 鍾傑文先生:可以呀。 22 許偉強資深大律師:尤其是就住你尋日同哋講2024 年冇做到年檢嗰個問題呢,我想了解多 23 啲。 24 鍾傑文先生:係,好呀,可以。 25 許偉強資深大律師:或者我哋睇一睇尋日我哋個謄本,喺我哋尋日嘅謄本嘅第70 頁,第23 26 行嗰度開始,委員會李大律師當時就咁樣問你嘅,剛才都講過「16 年開始,其實宏 27 泰消防就開始替宏福苑做呢一個裝備嘅年檢」,我哋都冇異議就係你都係由16 年 28 開始幫宏福苑做嘅。 29 鍾傑文先生:係呀,係。 30 許偉強資深大律師:一直到2025 年,除咗2024 年你就應該冇做。咁你嘅答案係「冇 31 錯」。有冇咩嘢原因點解2024 年冇做呢咁樣?然後你就講出咗個原因,我哋呢度 32 睇到呢,第一,你係講話「2024 年你哋報咗個價,不過你就冇收到對方」,即係 33 我哋喇就簽番返嚟,所以就基本上就住2024 年嗰個年檢,如果我嘅理解你個證供 34 係正確呢,就應該你嘅證供就話就住2024 年就冇一個大家係同意咗個合同,啱唔 35 啱? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第六天

35 本謄本由Epiq 編製 鍾傑文先生:係呀。 1 許偉強資深大律師:呢度你亦都講喇,就話「直到2025 年3 月,林文欣工程主任就sent 2 咗一份報價畀我咁,然後就有跟進2025 年3 月做嗰個年檢。」係咪呀? 3 鍾傑文先生:唔嗯。 4 許偉強資深大律師:呢度我想問一問你嘅,就係有關2024 年冇做年檢呢一個解釋,... 5 鍾傑文先生:唔。 6 許偉強資深大律師:...從來冇喺你個證人供詞解釋過嘅,同意嗎? 7 鍾傑文先生:同意嘅。 8 許偉強資深大律師:就2024 年呢一個冇做年檢呢一樣嘢,我想問下你,除咗你話冇一個大 9 家同意咗嘅合同之外,其實你嘅證供係咪即係話就住2024 一整年你都冇就宏福苑 10 嘅消防裝置做過檢測,同意嗎? 11 鍾傑文先生:我有協助過--如果冇檢測呀,我真係唔係好記得。因為其實我都係睇番啲文 12 件,我哋先去--我詳細少少得唔得㗎? 13 許偉強資深大律師:唔。 14 鍾傑文先生:因為我哋對上一次,除咗25 年3 月,咁就是23 年嘅10 月喥嘅就做年檢,其 15 實呢啲合約呢,我哋--即係對我哋嚟講呢,係即係做--去搵咗你去做年檢,咁你一 16 年內佢哋搵你呢,我哋都覺得我哋會去應佢個要求去做嘢咁樣嘅,唔係話,啊,做 17 完年檢,你合約1 月1 號到期喎,我哋就唔再嚟咁樣囉,但係當然喇,就好多我哋 18 再額外做嗰啲嘢都會有報價咁樣囉。 19 許偉強資深大律師:明白。 20 鍾傑文先生:係。 21 許偉強資深大律師:即係話簡單啲嚟講喇,就住我剛才嘅問題。 22 鍾傑文先生:係,係。 23 許偉強資深大律師:2024 年究竟你有冇同宏福苑做過任何有關消防裝置嘅檢查,你就唔係 24 好清楚個細節,係咪呀? 25 鍾傑文先生:係嘞,係嘞,係嘞,係嘞,我唔係好清楚。 26 許偉強資深大律師:我帶你去睇一睇喺H1/31 嗰份文件。 27 鍾傑文先生:係,係,係。 28 許偉強資深大律師:呢份文件呢,我哋可以見到有一個fax 嘅時間嘅,呢個就係2023 年 29 10 月26 號。但係根據我哋嘅資料,呢一個時間應該就係公司當時就邀請各方去到 30 投標嗰個時間。 31 鍾傑文先生:唔,唔。 32 許偉強資深大律師:就並不是簽約嘅時間。 33 鍾傑文先生:係,係。 34 許偉強資深大律師:如果我哋睇下呢一張合同就寫住係一個(English Spoken),咁呢 35 度都係寫住宏福苑。呢度呢,第一句我哋可以睇到呢一份合同就係ISS 同埋 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第六天

36 本謄本由Epiq 編製 Victory Fire 就作嘅一個協議嚟嘅。 1 鍾傑文先生:唔。 2 許偉強資深大律師:呢度亦都講咗喇,就係就住呢啲消防系統,你哋係需要做一個呢度所嘅 3 「(English Spoken)」,見到嗎? 4 鍾傑文先生:唔。 5 許偉強資深大律師:「(English Spoken)」,第二段都有講到嗰個就住嗰啲工程要做 6 啲乜嘢喇,同埋嗰個(English Spoken)個收費等等,呢度都有寫嘅。如果我 7 哋去落少少,去到第--呢度應該有四--總共有四頁嘅,一路去到最尾嗰頁。呢度就 8 咁講嘅,最後嗰度就有講話「(English Spoken )」即係我哋公司喇,就 9 (English Spoken),即係你哋「(English Spoken)」幾多錢等等喇。 10 鍾傑文先生:唔。 11 許偉強資深大律師:第二行(English Spoken ),即係由2024 年1 月1 號開始 12 「(English Spoken)」,咁呢度亦都我哋睇到,亦都係有宏福苑管理處喺右 13 邊嗰個簽名,亦都係有Victory Fire 個蓋章同埋你哋個簽名,如果我哋可以落 14 少少可能見到嗰個簽署人,係嘞。呢度似乎我哋可以睇到就住喺2024 年1 月開始 15 係有一個連續兩年嘅合約,即係應該差唔多係去到2026 年嘅1 月呢段時間。 16 鍾傑文先生:係。 17 許偉強資深大律師:咁同你昨天作個口供就似乎唔係好一致,就話「就住2024 年係沒有一 18 份大家同意咗嘅合約。」 19 鍾傑文先生:係呀。 20 許偉強資深大律師:你覺得你需唔需要糾正一下你尋日嘅口供呢? 21 鍾傑文先生:我琴日嘅口供我都有講過㗎,就係25 年嘅3 月我就收到呢一份嘅文件,佢就 22 話24 年簽咗畀我哋,咁所以我就講喇,即係24 年都過咗嘞,係咪?即係我嘅理 23 解。 24 許偉強資深大律師:對唔住,我停一停先。你尋日嘅口供應該從來冇提過一份2023 年你見 25 到個合同。 26 鍾傑文先生:我可能當時嚟講,被問嘅時候搞錯咗個時間,其實我所指嘅就係23 年10 月呢 27 一份,因為佢for 24 年做吖嘛,可能我就住講嗰個時間,我exactly 就係指呢 28 一份,呢一個文件我唔係第一次見。我第一次見到嘅時候就係林文欣先生 29 WhatsApp 畀我,我亦都可以畀到嗰啲資料你哋睇到係3 月份㗎,咁樣囉。 30 許偉強資深大律師:唔,咁講吖,就主你尋日畀嘅口供。 31 鍾傑文先生:係呀,唔。 32 許偉強資深大律師:你好清楚同我哋講話其實2024 年你哋做咗一個報價,咁但係呢,冇收 33 到佢哋簽番嚟喎,所以就冇一個正式嘅合同,呢個係咪唔正確架? 34 鍾傑文先生:唔正確㗎,我所指嘅24 年合同係呢一個。 35 許偉強資深大律師:即係其實24 年係有一個合同嘅,同意嗎? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第六天

37 本謄本由Epiq 編製 鍾傑文先生:唔同意。 1 許偉強資深大律師:唔緊要,我哋都可以睇到嗰個文件嘅。第二樣嘢,我想帶你睇一睇就係 2 睇下G2/2193,呢度就係宏福苑業主立案法團第二十四次全體委員會會議記錄。呢 3 個日期就係2024 年4 月22 日星期一。如果去到呢度可以望落少少,去到2197 4 段,sorry,2197 頁,9.2 段,呢度咁寫嘅,呢度第9 段講嘅就係關於商討及議 5 決更換滅火筒事宜,9.2 就講話,呢度應該咁講,9.1 就係「管理處報告經消防季 6 檢後,有部分滅火筒將於未來三個月到期,需要按照法例更換確保安全。」然後 7 9.2 都有講到,就係話嗰個更換滅火筒個情況,呢度亦都有講到就係話有關個報 8 價,承辦商喺第三嗰一欄嗰度寫住宏泰消防你哋嘅報價係幾多,然後有粒星嘅,嗰 9 粒星呢,下面亦都寫住「現有保養服務承辦商」,呢個係講緊2024 年4 月,咁呢 10 度嘅紀錄就係2024 年4 月根據呢個業主立案法團嘅會議,你哋當時係做緊一個現 11 有--關於呢個消防系統一個現有嘅保養服務承辦商,同意嗎? 12 陸啟康法官:Page 幾? 13 鍾傑文先生:我同意呢個文件囉,佢寫嘅嘢囉,但係我哋唔知囉。 14 許偉強資深大律師:你唔知? 15 鍾傑文先生:我完全唔知,我冇出席過。 16 許偉強資深大律師:唔知,唔。你尋日畀口供嗰陣時同大家講話2024 年係冇一個合同覆蓋 17 你向宏福苑做嘅檢測,你喺講呢樣嘢之前你有冇查閱番一啲文件,睇下,喂,2024 18 年究竟我哋做緊咩嘢㗎?我哋有冇同佢哋做呀?有冇查閱過呀? 19 鍾傑文先生:我查閱過下嘅,就我哋做過一個(English Spoken)。但係呢,就係23 20 年至24 年一年內,(English Spoken)即係火警演習咁樣囉。 21 許偉強資深大律師:唔,得。我去另一個問題。 22 鍾傑文先生:係。 23 許偉強資深大律師:你今日剛才就住李大律師問你個問題嗰陣時時,記得有同委員會討論過 24 有關2025 年10 月16 同埋17 號,就住八個屋苑入面發現個水缸冇水,要試嗰個 25 消防喉轆就試唔到,又冇水嗰個情況,記得嘛? 26 鍾傑文先生:記得,記得。 27 許偉強資深大律師:記得,係。你又睇下你嗰個證人口供,我畀你睇番你嗰個講法。 28 鍾傑文先生:唔。 29 許偉強資深大律師:如果你去第5 同埋第6 段,之前可能你都有睇過唐慶麟嘅口供。 30 鍾傑文先生:係。 31 許偉強資深大律師:其實都大同小異,大家講啲嘢。 32 鍾傑文先生:係,係。 33 許偉強資深大律師:第5 段就講緊10 月16 號,就住有三座見到嘅情況,A、B、C。第6 34 段就係講緊10 月17 號,就住另外嗰五座所發現嘅情況,記得嘛? 35 鍾傑文先生:係,冇錯,記得。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第六天

38 本謄本由Epiq 編製 許偉強資深大律師:咁當時所發現嘅情況都係--即係嗰個消防水缸冇水嗰個情況。咁我想問 1 一問呢度,就係就住例如16 號咁講先。 2 鍾傑文先生:好。 3 許偉強資深大律師:有兩位唐先生,唐慶麟、唐小明同埋蔡金龍先生,佢哋發現到水箱冇 4 水,第一時間通知你,係邊一位通知你,記唔記得? 5 鍾傑文先生:唔係好記得,即係總之有打過電話畀我,係佢兩個之一。 6 許偉強資深大律師:記唔記得用咩嘢方法通知你,例如打電話畀你... 7 鍾傑文先生:打電話,打電話。 8 許偉強資深大律師:...定係有冇WhatsApp 你? 9 鍾傑文先生:冇,冇。 10 許偉強資深大律師:冇嘅,冇WhatsApp 紀錄? 11 鍾傑文先生:冇WhatsApp,佢哋唔鐘意用WhatsApp 嘅。 12 許偉強資深大律師:好,打電話話畀你知,好。 13 鍾傑文先生:然後就喺你講及關於10 月16 號嗰度,就你有講到話喺最尾嗰五行左右,「唐 14 慶麟即時向宏福苑的工程主任林先生查詢,並得知宏福苑共八座的消防水缸因出現 15 漏水情況,當時正進行維修工程」,呢個就係你了解到唐先生同林先生嗰個對話嘅 16 情況,係咪? 17 鍾傑文先生:係,係。 18 許偉強資深大律師:當時你就自己冇直接向林先生詢問,係咪? 19 鍾傑文先生:我冇直接落去,冇嘅。 20 許偉強資深大律師:好。然後我哋睇下第6 段,第6 段都係講番嗰個相關嘅情況,然後我哋 21 睇下最尾嗰三行,「由於唐慶麟前一日已獲告知所有消防水缸正進行維修工程,水 22 缸裏的水已被放掉,是日便沒有再對消防水缸作進一步檢查。其後唐慶麟、唐小 23 明、蔡金龍完成了當日的工程後,便於當日下午6 時離開宏福苑。」我哋去下一 24 頁,下一頁就已經係去到2025 年11 月17 號嘅事情。我哋而家停一停先,從 25 2025 年10 月17 至到2025 年11 月17 號整整一個月呢個期間,根據你嘅口 26 供,你同唔同意喺你個口供入面從來冇提及過你或者Victory Fire 任何職員曾 27 經查詢過就住呢啲咁嘅消防水缸嘅工程,究竟需要暫停邊啲消防裝置?你冇提及 28 過,喺度。 29 鍾傑文先生:我喺個口供裏面,我同意嘅。 30 許偉強資深大律師:係。另外,喺你口供亦都冇提過,你或者係Victory Fire 任何職 31 員,就住幾時開始暫停任何呢啲消防裝置,作過任何嘅調查,喺你口供亦都絕冇提 32 及,同意嘛? 33 鍾傑文先生:同意。 34 許偉強資深大律師:亦都喺你嘅口供從來冇提過,你或者Victory Fire 任何職員有查詢 35 過,呢啲停咗嘅消防裝置幾時可以開番,冇提及過嘅? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第六天

39 本謄本由Epiq 編製 鍾傑文先生:冇提及過嘅。 1 許偉強資深大律師:同意嘛? 2 鍾傑文先生:冇錯。 3 許偉強資深大律師:當時你知道嗰個水缸冇水嗰個情況咁。 4 鍾傑文先生:唔嗯。 5 許偉強資深大律師:大家有冇--你或者任何Victory Fire 嘅職員有冇考慮過話巡查一 6 下,睇下個情況係點?其實一個簡單嘅巡查可能都會讓你知道嗰個消防加壓泵房嗰 7 個總掣係已經被關掉呢個情況,你同意嘛? 8 鍾傑文先生:我哋係冇考慮過呢方面,真係。 9 許偉強資深大律師:好。另外,如果你睇番你嘅口供,最後嗰度1533 頁開始。呢度就係你 10 做緊口供嘅時候,你就有睇過有關嗰啲SDN,然後你最後得出嘅結論喺下一頁, 11 1535 頁,你就呢度講就話「睇完之後就覺得每次掛牌有效就唔應該超過十四日, 12 如果有關嘅消防裝置係該期限內未能夠恢復正常」等等等等,「咁就應該係要另行 13 明確去申請延長,如果關閉嘅時間持續不斷,就要同消防處嗰邊去跟進嘅。」係咪 14 咁? 15 鍾傑文先生:係,係。 16 許偉強資深大律師:咁亦都係我哋都睇到,喺你嘅口供度,10 月17 至11 月17 號呢整整 17 一個月嘅時間,你都冇提及過話你有冇見過任何SDN 知道其實搞咗幾耐,有冇延長 18 到,你都冇提過呢樣嘢,同意嘛? 19 鍾傑文先生:我提過問攞囉。 20 許偉強資深大律師:吓? 21 鍾傑文先生:我提過問攞。 22 許偉強資深大律師:嗯? 23 鍾傑文先生:我提過問攞。 24 許偉強資深大律師:係,我話你嘅證供度冇提過。 25 鍾傑文先生:哦,證供係冇提過。 26 許偉強資深大律師:同意嘛? 27 鍾傑文先生:同意。 28 許偉強資深大律師:你今日第一次--今朝第一次,就住李大律師嘅問題就話「唔係喎,我 29 10 月17 號有問過管理公司嘅鄭小姐。」 30 鍾傑文先生:係。 31 許偉強資深大律師:咁你畀我哋嗰個情況就話「因為我做口供嗰陣時就可能冇好仔細咁樣查 32 過我同佢嗰啲電話紀錄」,記唔記得? 33 鍾傑文先生:係,記得,記得。 34 許偉強資深大律師:我哋睇番你嘅口供,睇番你嘅口供,第1531 頁,如果我哋睇第十--由 35 第11 段開始。其實每一段你就住話同邊個人講過嘢,你都有一個好正確嘅時間, 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第六天

40 本謄本由Epiq 編製 11 月26 號下午1 點28 分,咁第12 段11 月26 號下午3 點10 分,2025 年- 1 -13 段,11 月26 號,下午3 點48 分,再落,14 呢度你仲講埋就話「黃健華依 2 照本人嘅指示就係向鄭小姐當面要求佢提供掛牌紙」,呢度係講緊火災之後,11 月 3 26 號嘅下午6 點鐘。然後就住你同鄭小姐嘅對話喺15 段,你亦都好清楚講咗話 4 2025 年11 月26 號下午6 點21 分,本人致電鄭小姐詢問佢有關係咪真係有掛 5 牌,等等等等。其實你做呢份口供嗰陣時,都查過晒你電話紀錄㗎喇,係咪? 6 鍾傑文先生:係,iPhone 嘅電話紀錄。咁其實有啲相,即係好似11 月26 號6 點21 7 分,咁我喺-- 即係都知道警方會落嚟同我落口供嘅時候,我(English 8 Spoken)咗圖,咁我搵到嗰啲圖。咁當時嚟講,我就真係唔知道原來可以打電話 9 去電訊公司查番半年嘅電話紀錄,我係有個印象,係我有件咁嘅事,但係我覺得我 10 唔知道咩嘢時間,我唔知大概日期係幾時。我都基本上我所以就--當時嚟講我就冇 11 刻意去準備落去,但係我--即係我有個印象喺度咁樣。跟住直到,唔係喎,點解好 12 似啲口供好似有啲唔(English Spoken )咁嘅,咁我就再刻意去諗呢件事咁 13 樣。 14 許偉強資深大律師:簡單啲嚟講,做呢份口供嗰陣時,你係有機會去查過你同其他人,包括 15 鄭小姐嗰啲電話嗰啲談話啲紀錄幾點幾點,不過咁啱就係10 月17 號嗰個你就可能 16 遺漏咗,同唔同意? 17 鍾傑文先生:都唔同意,因為11 月21 號我都其實冇刻意去睇鄭小姐。 18 許偉強資深大律師:我而家唔係同你講緊11 月21 號,我同你講緊10 月17 號。 19 鍾傑文先生:因為我連11 月21 號我都冇擺落去。 20 許偉強資深大律師:我而家同你講緊係,你做呢份口供嗰陣時有冇去查過10 月17 號你哋嗰 21 個電話紀錄? 22 鍾傑文先生:冇。 23 許偉強資深大律師:係咁簡單啫。 24 鍾傑文先生:冇。 25 許偉強資深大律師:冇吖嘛?Okay。好,其實啱啱喺好短個小休嘅時間,我哋都問咗鄭小姐 26 個有關嗰個情況,鄭小姐都好坦白同我哋講咗,10 月17 號佢確實係同你有一個電 27 話紀錄,嗰個電話紀錄係大概1 分06 秒左右,我哋冇時間再考究嗰個內容喺邊 28 度。不過我想問下你,你而家--喺你畀警方嘅口供,畀委員會嘅口供,都從來隻字 29 冇提過呢個10 月17 號同鄭小姐嘅電話紀錄,今日你第一次就講話「喺呢個電話紀 30 錄嗰陣時,我有問佢攞嗰啲咁嘅SDN」,記唔記得? 31 鍾傑文先生:記得。 32 許偉強資深大律師:記得。你問佢攞SDN 當時,你覺得係咪一個好緊要嘅嘢?你好緊張想知 33 道,剛才我問你嗰啲問題就係「嗰啲消防裝置停咗幾耐?點解要停?」 34 鍾傑文先生:我緊張㗎。 35 許偉強資深大律師:一定緊張要問佢,係咪? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第六天

41 本謄本由Epiq 編製 鍾傑文先生:我緊張唔係因為覺得嗰個係我責任。 1 許偉強資深大律師:我唔係講緊你嘅責任。 2 鍾傑文先生:Okay。 3 許偉強資深大律師:你緊張你係想知道--我完全冇話過係你責任,唔使擔心先。 4 鍾傑文先生:Okay,係。 5 許偉強資深大律師:我係講緊你係想知道當時發生嘅事,同唔同意?點解水缸冇水、有冇... 6 鍾傑文先生:唔同意。 7 許偉強資深大律師:唔同意。 8 鍾傑文先生:係。 9 許偉強資深大律師:我讓你講下,你想攞SDN 當時你有咩嘢原因? 10 鍾傑文先生:因為我要做--完成呢個測試,我係要知道--我係要收到佢完工嗰份SDN,即係 11 完成晒,我先可以做--出證書。亦佢之前同我WhatsApp 嗰啲對話啲紀錄就係話 12 「10 月2 號要簽畀我哋,你可唔可以快啲開工?」所以即係佢哋都好緊張呢件 13 事,我要知道我幾時可以做完工測試。 14 許偉強資深大律師:可以做完工證? 15 鍾傑文先生:係,係。 16 許偉強資深大律師:好。咁好嘞,你呢度今日你第一次同我哋講話,10 月17 號同鄭小姐嗰 17 個電話個交談入面就有問佢攞SDN。 18 鍾傑文先生:係。 19 許偉強資深大律師:咁佢點回應你? 20 鍾傑文先生:佢話「唔喺手,要搵喎。」 21 許偉強資深大律師:要搵,係咪? 22 鍾傑文先生:係,係。 23 許偉強資深大律師:好。咁又睇番呢個整整一個月嘅時間,10 月17 去到11 月17。 24 鍾傑文先生:唔。 25 許偉強資深大律師:你就話「我嗰陣時問咗鄭小姐,佢話要搵」,證供入面都係冇講過有任 26 何跟進嘅事宜,如果你又知道要去攞SDN,佢又知道要去攞SDN,點解成個月喺你 27 嘅口供冇任何跟進嘅工作? 28 鍾傑文先生:你呢個月係幾時?指幾時? 29 許偉強資深大律師:10 月17 至到11 月17。 30 鍾傑文先生:哦,係,喺我口供裏面冇。 31 許偉強資深大律師:咁係冇,... 32 鍾傑文先生:喺我口供裏面冇。 33 許偉強資深大律師:你之後都冇跟進到,其實事實上,你都冇跟進到,同意嘛? 34 鍾傑文先生:傾完電話之後冇跟進到,係,冇錯。 35 許偉強資深大律師:好。我哋又睇下你嘅證人口供入面1530 頁,而家我哋睇下11 月17 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第六天

42 本謄本由Epiq 編製 號所發生嘅事情,呢度11 月17 去到11 月26,你就喺八座大廈就更換嗰個照明 1 系統。我哋特別留意下11 月19 號發生嘅事情,好嘛?11 月19 號你都知道就係 2 李俊賢同埋黃健華當時就去到做一啲更換嗰個消防警鐘一啲裝置,同埋嗰個扲手嗰 3 啲工程。咁我哋而家大家都知道當時因為可能會有觸電嘅風險,所以就需要閂咗嗰 4 個消防泵房嗰個總掣。 5 鍾傑文先生:唔。 6 許偉強資深大律師:咁當時就發現到原來消防個總掣係閂咗,同意嘛? 7 鍾傑文先生:係,同意,同意。 8 許偉強資深大律師:係。咁呢個亦都係邊個通知你? 9 鍾傑文先生:第一個通知我就係張小姐,我哋公司。 10 許偉強資深大律師:係。 11 鍾傑文先生:因為李俊賢通知咗佢,咁佢通知我。 12 許偉強資深大律師:係,都係打電話通知你嘅? 13 鍾傑文先生:有,打電話。 14 許偉強資深大律師:就呢件事,即係話李師傅同埋黃師傅佢哋喺現場發現到呢個總掣被關掉 15 呢個咁嘅狀況,有冇人用WhatsApp 通知過你呢樣嘢,記唔記得? 16 鍾傑文先生:WhatsApp 通知過我,張嘉文都有WhatsApp 通知過我嘅,係。 17 許偉強資深大律師:明白。你當時你... 18 鍾傑文先生:你講緊係置邦嘅人,係咪? 19 許偉強資深大律師:我講緊係你公司嘅人。 20 鍾傑文先生:哦,係,係,張嘉文有WhatsApp 過我。 21 許偉強資深大律師:有WhatsApp 過你嘅。 22 鍾傑文先生:係,係。 23 許偉強資深大律師:係咪?唔。呢個WhatsApp 紀錄你有冇向委員會提供? 24 鍾傑文先生:冇。佢同樣地有打電話畀我。 25 許偉強資深大律師:唔。 26 鍾傑文先生:Okay。 27 許偉強資深大律師:得。當你一開頭知道咗工人發現呢一個消防泵房嘅總電掣被關掉呢一個 28 狀況,當你知道咗之後,你有冇覺得有啲詫異? 29 鍾傑文先生:有,有。 30 許偉強資深大律師:一定係一件需要跟進嘅事? 31 鍾傑文先生:我其實--我哋嘅工程冇喺呢樣嘢涉及,不過我覺得就詫異嘅,所以我都想跟進 32 嘅,就算冇人叫我跟進,但係我覺得至少我要將個情況講畀管理處聽,(English 33 Spoken)佢唔知咁樣。 34 許偉強資深大律師:鍾生,首先我哋唔--都係撇開你而家諗緊嗰個責任問題先,我唔係問緊 35 你有冇責任呢個問題。就係話你作為一個即係專業人士,咁你知道咗有工人向你指 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第六天

43 本謄本由Epiq 編製 出當時嗰個總電掣被關掉,你一定亦都會醒覺就係話,呢個情況究竟係咩嘢原因? 1 會唔會即係需要去處理?你都會諗呢啲問題,係咪? 2 鍾傑文先生:最主要--我係最--當時嗰刻嘅感受,最緊要係咪有合資格嘅承辦商幫佢做咗? 3 咁樣,我當時係咁,就係咁樣。 4 許偉強資深大律師:尋日你都聽到黃先生嘅口供,佢都係講話--如果啲消防裝置,假設好似 5 個電掣咁,佢當時要去閂,如果閂唔超過廿四小時,都唔需要即係通知消防處嘅。 6 鍾傑文先生:係,冇錯。 7 許偉強資深大律師:但係如果超過嘅話,就可能要即係需要咁諗,係咪?你同唔同意? 8 鍾傑文先生:做嗰單工程,係,做嗰單工程係。 9 許偉強資深大律師:即係嗰單工程需要諗下? 10 鍾傑文先生:係,係。 11 許偉強資深大律師:你當時知道咗呢個總電掣被關上嘅情況,你都係冇任何資料就係話,其 12 實呢個電掣被關上咗幾耐,你冇呢方面嘅資料,你當時,係咪? 13 鍾傑文先生:係,冇㗎。 14 許偉強資深大律師:有機會可能已被關上超過二十四小時咁樣? 15 鍾傑文先生:係,係。 16 許偉強資深大律師:係咪?嗄。好,咁呢度你有提過,喺第8 段你有提過同--係,呢度最後 17 嗰幾句,應該由第--一、二、三、四,最後嗰五句,最後嗰度係「其後,李俊賢及 18 黃健華即時通知宏福苑管理處主任鄭小姐上述情況,鄭小姐都告知因為大維修需要 19 暫停消防系統,及表示已向消防處掛牌,咁就亦已應消防處要求加裝臨時滅火筒」 20 咁樣,我想首先問下你,就係呢度你提及李先生同埋黃先生就係有同鄭小姐聯絡呢 21 樣嘢。 22 鍾傑文先生:係。 23 許偉強資深大律師:呢個咁樣嘅對話,你應該就冇參與,係咪? 24 鍾傑文先生:冇參與,冇錯。 25 許偉強資深大律師:即係你哋都係從李先生同埋黃先生嘅資料,就得知佢哋有同鄭小姐傾過 26 呢個問題? 27 鍾傑文先生:黃先生唔同意嘅,因為黃先生其實佢去搵佢前、搵佢後,都有打畀我,即係得 28 到我指示,我同佢強調「你一定要同佢講清楚,當面。」 29 許偉強資深大律師:你--唔好意思,你最後嗰度係點話? 30 鍾傑文先生:我同佢... 31 許偉強資深大律師:你同黃先生點樣強調咩嘢? 32 鍾傑文先生:我強調話晒畀佢聽過所有系統都閂晒,咁--係,咁佢--因為其實... 33 許偉強資深大律師:黃先生都知,黃先生喺現場㗎嘛。 34 鍾傑文先生:係,係。 35 許偉強資深大律師:佢知道所有系統閂晒。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第六天

44 本謄本由Epiq 編製 鍾傑文先生:因為佢搵佢之前有打畀我,先同我講呢件事,係,佢就話「喂」,因為其實我 1 哋個--即係我哋都係知道雖然有人處理咗,但係我哋都唔想管理公司即係--冇人通 2 知消防處,我哋覺得係有問題,咁樣,即係我哋係想將我哋知道嘅資料講畀管理處 3 聽,等佢作出個決定。 4 許偉強資深大律師:明白,明白,明白。 5 鍾傑文先生:係,咁樣。 6 許偉強資深大律師:即係你都覺得有需要就住你哋知道呢一個消防個總掣,即係個消防泵房 7 個總掣被關掉呢一個狀況,你覺得係有需要通知管理處嘅,係咪? 8 鍾傑文先生:係,我覺得有需要通知佢,即係至少話畀佢聽咁樣。 9 許偉強資深大律師:係,係,因為即係其實好簡單就係,因為呢個情況可能都係涉及安全㗎 10 嘛呢樣嘢。 11 鍾傑文先生:係,我唔係覺得係責任問題,而係我覺得「喂,閂晒喎」,咁起碼管理處知道 12 晒,講畀佢聽喇梗係,咁樣,純粹係咁嘅啫。 13 許偉強資深大律師:好,好,明白,明白。喺呢度,尋日黃先生個口供亦都同你有啲類似, 14 喺尋日都係第一次同委員會講出,就係話佢11 月19 號,其實佢係有問過鄭小姐攞 15 SDN,雖然佢兩份口供都冇提過呢樣嘢,不過尋日第一次就話畀我哋聽,就話佢有 16 問鄭小姐攞SDN 嘅咁。我想問下你,你攞SDN 呢一個咁嘅動作,係咪你指示黃先 17 生去做? 18 鍾傑文先生:係。 19 許偉強資深大律師:係咪?亦都喺你個口供從來你冇提過,你話指示黃先生問鄭小姐攞 20 SDN。其實你個口供度從來冇提過喺火災之前有問過任何人攞SDN,同唔同意? 21 鍾傑文先生:好似11 月26 號同林生嗰度有,唔可以話從來冇。 22 許偉強資深大律師:我哋等陣--好,就住呢一個11 月19 號發生嘅事,你覺得你畀呢個指 23 示畀黃先生,問鄭小姐攞SDN 呢樣嘢緊要㗎嘛? 24 鍾傑文先生:緊要。 25 許偉強資深大律師:緊要吖嘛。完全喺你兩份口供,畀警方嘅口供、畀委員會嘅口供,隻字 26 都冇提過你有提過任何人11 月19 號去攞SDN,同意嘛? 27 鍾傑文先生:都同意嘅。 28 許偉強資深大律師:亦都喺你嘅口供度,似乎都冇提及過,你話要同管理處去講出你哋發現 29 咗呢一個閂咗消防泵房總掣呢件事,但係似乎你冇提及過你或者任何Victory 30 Fire 嘅職員,有向過管理處提出話「喂,呢個咁嘅總掣應該點搞喎,你係咪要同 31 其他人跟進呀?」有冇提過? 32 鍾傑文先生:冇提過。 33 許偉強資深大律師:冇提過,係。呢度我想停一停問一問你一個問題先。 34 鍾傑文先生:係。 35 許偉強資深大律師:就係尋日黃先生畀口供嗰陣時,委員--應該孫大律師問佢有個問題,就 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第六天

45 本謄本由Epiq 編製 係問有關嗰個「如果要做嗰啲防水工程,是否真係需要閂嗰個消防泵房個總掣?」 1 呢個問題,有問過黃先生嘅,黃先生畀我哋嗰個答覆就係話佢有同你商量過呢個問 2 題,不過你都--大家都認為係唔需要閂呢個總掣,同意嘛? 3 鍾傑文先生:係,如果淨係做水缸,冇錯。 4 許偉強資深大律師:係。所以即係話其實可以唔使閂個總掣,只可以要閂啲獨立嘅掣都已經 5 足夠? 6 鍾傑文先生:冇錯,冇錯。 7 許偉強資深大律師:係咪?唔。即係呢個你覺得都係一個--你認為係一個應該嘅做法嚟嘅, 8 即係閂一啲獨立嘅掣,係咪? 9 鍾傑文先生:係,我認同,我認同。 10 許偉強資深大律師:就住呢個問題,咁你就話向管理處提出咗有關你哋發現呢個有關電掣-- 11 即係總電掣被關上呢個問題。你哋有冇提及過就係話「喂,其實唔使閂嗰個總掣個 12 喎,其實你閂番啲獨立嘅掣都okay 個囉喎」,你哋有冇提過呢樣嘢? 13 鍾傑文先生:冇提及過。 14 許偉強資深大律師:冇提過。你--我想問下,鍾生。你就話「我」--你要就住呢個閂咗消防 15 泵房總掣呢樣嘢要話畀管理處聽,咁基本上都係希望佢哋跟進。 16 鍾傑文先生:係。 17 許偉強資深大律師:咁你都好明白就係就住消防裝置呢啲嘢,如果管理處嘅人員係冇專業嘅 18 知識嘅,基本上佢哋唔可以處理嗰啲裝置。 19 鍾傑文先生:你講管理處咩嘢人? 20 許偉強資深大律師:管理處嘅職員。 21 鍾傑文先生:職員。咁我覺得就跟消防嗰啲,佢都應該--我個人咋,我覺得佢都會了解嘅, 22 大部分,咁操作可能未必知,但係嗰啲咩嘢裝置、有咩嘢系統嗰啲,我諗都應該明 23 白啩,係,即係我個人覺得。 24 許偉強資深大律師:咁你覺得就住呢個電掣,而家係關咗咁嘅狀況,佢應該跟住落嚟點樣去 25 跟進?應該開番佢定係唔應該開番佢,呢啲一定係要由專業嘅消防裝置嘅承辦商去 26 決定呢個問題,同唔同意? 27 鍾傑文先生:唔完全同意,我覺得應該由掛牌嗰間公司做。 28 許偉強資深大律師:掛牌嗰間都係... 29 鍾傑文先生:都係專業,但係唔係所有專業。 30 許偉強資深大律師:...專業嘅消防裝置承辦商嚟嘅。 31 鍾傑文先生:係,係。 32 許偉強資深大律師:所以都係要由專業人士去考慮點做,同意嘛? 33 鍾傑文先生:係,當然,同意。 34 許偉強資深大律師:我哋睇一睇你嗰個畀警方嗰邊個口供。 35 鍾傑文先生:唔。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第六天

46 本謄本由Epiq 編製 許偉強資深大律師:C12/1150,係問題一--答案一嗰度,我想你睇一睇。警方當時咁樣問 1 你嘅,「如果你發現消防泵總電掣關閉,你有冇責任通知消防處?」你嘅答案就係 2 「冇,因為已經有其他消防公司已作掛牌,所以我冇再重複通知。」呢個就係你個 3 答案。 4 鍾傑文先生:係。 5 許偉強資深大律師:我想問下,大火經過咗都四個月,相信你都有即考慮過好多個問題,亦 6 都即係作供等等,呢兩日你都接受咗盤問,你仍然維持你呢一個睇法嘛? 7 鍾傑文先生:我維持「冇」囉。 8 許偉強資深大律師:維持係冇呢個責任通知消防處? 9 鍾傑文先生:係,冇錯。 10 許偉強資深大律師:咁我又同你睇呢個問題,啱啱我哋係講到11 月19 號嗰個情況,我哋睇 11 下11 月21 號嗰個情況,睇下你證人口供入面所講。11 月21 號就係咁嘅,就係 12 2025 年11 月21 號,李俊賢再次到達宏福苑H 座18 樓更換消防警鐘同埋24 樓 13 更換呢個扲手,亦都發現咗總電掣被關上,其後佢繼續完成更換工作、拍照,然後 14 就現隨本證人陳述書附上佢嘅WhatsApp,有關已完成更換消防警鐘同埋扲手嘅照 15 片咁樣。呢度其實去到21 號,又過咗兩日,19 號發現總掣被關掉,21 號好明顯 16 都仍然係冇開番,都做唔到測試嘅工程,係咪? 17 鍾傑文先生:係,冇錯。 18 許偉強資深大律師:好,又過咗兩日,呢啲消防裝置有關嘅水電亦都係再停咗兩日,喺咁嘅 19 情況,你有冇再考慮下點呀?管理處嗰邊點呀?定係我需唔需要畀啲意見,就住呢 20 一個消防泵嗰個總掣嘅問題?咁樣搞落去唔得個喎,即係我都畀啲意見。唔好理你 21 有冇責住通知消防處先,就住你一路知道咗呢個咁嘅狀況,你覺得--如果你又話你 22 通知管理處,你有冇覺得點都應該畀啲意見,就住嗰個安全個係數畀下意見,睇下 23 點樣去解決呢個事情呢? 24 鍾傑文先生:例如係乜嘢意見可以解決呢個事情? 25 許偉強資深大律師:例如而家咁樣嘅消防嗰個總電掣被關掉都一段時間,係咪? 26 鍾傑文先生:係。 27 許偉強資深大律師:喺咁嘅情況,你作為消防裝置註冊承辦商,你都會覺得如果繼續係咁嘅 28 情況嘅話,唔理想,係咪? 29 鍾傑文先生:係。 30 許偉強資深大律師:咁你有冇作過任何建議?我想問下。 31 鍾傑文先生:我得到個資訊,就佢已經搵咗另外一間做,咁可能我哋行內即係畀嗰種根深蒂 32 固嗰種影響得好緊要,唔好教人做嘢,唔係自己嘅嘢。我自己覺得唔妥都好,有人 33 咁樣做,我只能夠提醒我要做番啲標準,呢個就係當時我哋嘅諗法,我哋一直以嚟 34 都係咁,我哋...(聽不清) 35 許偉強資深大律師:其實呢個問題唔係淨係牽涉人哋,其實都關你事,因為點解呢,如果一 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第六天

47 本謄本由Epiq 編製 路喺咁嘅狀況嘅話,你需要做嗰啲維修工程冇辦法做到測試,一樣做唔到,係咪? 1 鍾傑文先生:係。 2 許偉強資深大律師:亦都會影響到你工作? 3 鍾傑文先生:係。 4 許偉強資深大律師:你亦都冇諗下話我點可以即係跟進呢方面,睇下點解決呢件事咩? 5 鍾傑文先生:其實就冇得快,喺我角度,除咗追佢哋之外,咁追佢哋嗰個責任又唔喺我度, 6 亦都唔喺我權限度,我同管理處賓主關係,即係理論上佢叫我做嘢㗎咋嘛,我已經 7 多事咗,喺我個人角度。 8 許偉強資深大律師:好,明白。另外,我想就帶一帶你去睇番啱啱委員會大律師李律師都有 9 問過你嘅問題,就係就住2025 年11 月16 號--對唔住,11 月26 號。 10 鍾傑文先生:係。 11 許偉強資深大律師:睇下第10 段,第10 段呢度就係講話11 月26 號下晝12 點,咁同21 12 號又隔多咗五日,黃健華又到咗宏福苑清理有關嗰啲舊嘅物料,黃健華迅速將舊物 13 料搬上車,並於當1 點鐘離開宏福苑,黃健華當日就沒有進行任何消防系統嘅測 14 試,亦沒有親眼睇到當時嗰個消防泵總電掣嘅狀況。 15 鍾傑文先生:係。 16 許偉強資深大律師:即係其實我哋而家都知,其實就算係講緊11 月26 號火災發生當天,其 17 實消防泵嗰個總電掣嗰個狀況其實都冇轉到,都係一樣,係咪? 18 鍾傑文先生:唔嗯。 19 許偉強資深大律師:但係去到11 月26 號,如果我問你,鍾先生,可能你都係同一個答案。 20 就係話亦都時間一路一路咁過,咁亦都知道咗呢一個總掣被關上嘅情況,其實個時 21 間越嚟越長,我亦都睇唔到話你有任何係一啲建議或者一啲提議,就住呢個問題應 22 該如何去解決或者改進嘅,你嘅答案都係同一樣,係咪?都係話因為有其他人做 23 緊,所以你就唔方便畀意見? 24 鍾傑文先生:可以咁講。 25 許偉強資深大律師:11 段,2025 年11 月26 日下午1 點28 分,就林先生--你呢度講緊 26 就係管理處嗰邊嗰個林文欣先生,就因為...(聽不清)師傅員工就致電本人表示 27 要儘快發出F.S.251 證書。喺呢度停一停先,呢度其實你個講法就係話下午1 點 28 28 分,即係話火災之前,... 29 鍾傑文先生:冇錯。 30 許偉強資深大律師:...你致電林文欣先生... 31 鍾傑文先生:唔係我致電,林文欣先生... 32 許偉強資深大律師:對唔住,林文欣先生致電你就發出有關F.S.251 嘅證書,佢講應該就 33 住話就住你宏泰嗰度做咗嗰啲維修工程,要去消防處去即係攞番嗰個F.S.251 證 34 書,係咪? 35 鍾傑文先生:冇錯。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第六天

48 本謄本由Epiq 編製 許偉強資深大律師:但係呢度就話因為你嗰個系統都出唔到個證書等等,但係啱啱我哋睇 1 到,就係其實有關嗰個林文欣先生問你攞宏泰呢方面嘅證書,其實我哋啱啱睇到嗰 2 個... 3 鍾傑文先生:證書。 4 許偉強資深大律師:...有關林文欣先生自己嘅WhatsApp 紀錄,我哋可以睇番嗰個--呢 5 個紀錄,呢個就係11 月27 號嘅淩晨,啱啱都講緊你瞓緊覺嘅時候。 6 鍾傑文先生:係,係,係。 7 陸啟康法官:係邊個資料夾? 8 許偉強資深大律師:呢度應該而家喺H3/69--我睇下先。應該係... 9 陸啟康法官:H3/6797? 10 許偉強資深大律師:應該係H3/6797,係,唔該。 11 陸啟康法官:睇到,睇到。 12 許偉強資深大律師:好,呢個就係我哋剛才睇過有關林文欣先生喺火災之後嗰個淩晨向你發 13 出嘅,呢度似乎佢呢度問你嘅「就睇下有冇宏泰申請掛牌嘅form?如果有就send 14 畀我」咁樣。咁呢度似乎係以你嘅理解就係空白form 嚟嘅? 15 鍾傑文先生:唔係。 16 許偉強資深大律師:你理解嗰啲係咩嘢form? 17 鍾傑文先生:當然嗰個form 就係SDN。 18 許偉強資深大律師:SDN? 19 鍾傑文先生:係。 20 許偉強資深大律師:就住宏泰,你哋就冇入過SDN㗎嘛? 21 鍾傑文先生:係,冇。 22 許偉強資深大律師:其實你會唔會記憶番就係其實林文欣先生有問過你有關宏泰提交畀消防 23 處嗰啲文件,無論SDN 又好,或者其他嘅form 都好,其實係喺火災之後嗰個淩晨 24 先至向你提出嘅,你同意嘛? 25 鍾傑文先生:唔同意,唔同意。 26 許偉強資深大律師:如果我哋睇一睇林文欣先生嗰個口供,我哋睇下SW2/1213--我哋去 27 1216,麻煩你睇一睇第17 段,鍾生。 28 鍾傑文先生:係。 29 許偉強資深大律師:呢度亦都係林文欣先生敘述番喺火災之前同你嘅一個對話嘅。 30 鍾傑文先生:唔。 31 許偉強資深大律師:佢嘅對話喺1217 頁入面有講到,就係「本人致電鍾先生確認相關工程 32 是否已經完成,並查詢宏泰甚麼時候能就此工程提供消防裝置及設備證書 33 F.S.251。一般來說,宏泰提交嘅消防裝置同埋設備證明一式兩份等等。當時鍾先 34 生表示宏泰暫時無法發出證書,因為係水缸冇水,因此未能就水源嗰個項目進行測 35 試,完成相關測試之後,宏泰之前就冇辦法就簽發呢個證書,首次知道有關水源嗰 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第六天

49 本謄本由Epiq 編製 個問題。」你同唔同意咁講呢?就係其實喺火災之前你同林先生嘅對話入面,大家 1 係冇提及到嗰個有關消防泵房個總電掣被關掉呢個問題嘅,同唔同意? 2 鍾傑文先生:我諗--其實當時嚟講個對話內容係點樣呢?完全用咩嘢字眼我就記唔晒,就大 3 概係四分鐘喥嘅,當時我都勞氣,我唔肯定我當時有冇提過個電源掣。 4 許偉強資深大律師:好。 5 鍾傑文先生:但係我就強調一樣嘢,我哋係--你喺掛緊牌嘅過程裏面,我哋唔會出呢啲測試 6 嘅,唔會出F.S.251 畀你嘅。 7 許偉強資深大律師:另外,如果我哋睇番你嘅證人口供第... 8 鍾傑文先生:我意思一定係有嘅,即係(English Spoken)係點樣去強調就係話你閂咗 9 電源掣,警鐘扲手閂晒,我一定係有講過個電源掣閂咗。 10 許偉強資深大律師:得,我聽到,唔該。我哋睇番你證人口供。 11 鍾傑文先生:係。 12 許偉強資深大律師:1531,1531 第12 段,呢度你又講話「2025 年11 月26 日下午3 13 點10 分,林先生致電本人通知有火警發生,對話中他詢問我如何重新啟動消防系 14 統,本人建議聯絡宏業所聘用的註冊消防承辦商,因為他們掛牌並關閉消防泵電 15 源。」我哋停一停呢度先,呢度你係話林文欣先生發生大火嗰陣時,緊急嘅時候向 16 你請教應該點樣去啟動番呢個消防系統,你就話「我建議去搵宏業嗰啲人,去睇下 17 佢點搞。」你剛才都一路有同委員會有講過,就係話因為呢啲咁嘅有關嗰啲防水工 18 程,所以可能會暫停咗嗰啲咁嘅防火裝置,因為有另外一個承辦商做,所以你都唔 19 方便畀啲咩嘢意見,係咪? 20 鍾傑文先生:係,係。 21 許偉強資深大律師:就住火災發生之前,你知道咗嗰個水泵--嗰個消防泵房總電掣被關掉都 22 有一段時間,你係唔係都冇提議過話你哋可以搵邊個去問下,有關應該點樣去解決 23 呢一個消防泵房總掣被關上呢一個情況可能產生嘅問題,你都冇提議過呢樣嘢㗎 24 嘛? 25 鍾傑文先生:冇提議過嘅。 26 許偉強資深大律師:好,呢度你就話叫佢搵宏業,因為林先生都會畀口供,林先生個口供就 27 話當時因為佢去到火災嘅現場,咁喺其中有三座入面,佢都係情急智生咁樣就試下 28 可唔可以開番嗰個總掣,睇下可唔可以因為咁啟動番消防警鐘嗰個系統嘅,佢係咁 29 同我哋講,佢就冇同我哋有講過就係話係問過你之後先去知道咁樣做嘅? 30 鍾傑文先生:係。 31 許偉強資深大律師:而家你嘅講法,如果你知道林先生係咁樣講法,你會唔會同意佢嘅講 32 法? 33 鍾傑文先生:我唔同意,因為佢真係有打過畀我,當時嚟講,佢都話消防員在場,好大火咁 34 樣,肯定佢有打過電話畀我。 35 許偉強資深大律師:好,我哋再睇番林先生同你嗰個WhatsApp 紀錄,11 月27 號嗰個紀 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第六天

50 本謄本由Epiq 編製 錄。啱啱你同委員會講話佢打畀你嗰陣時--我想知道大火發生當日,你知道咗之 1 後,你有冇去過現場? 2 鍾傑文先生:我想去,咁去到半路,六點幾嘅時候我就打畀鄭小姐,其實我知道黃健華去 3 到,跟住後屘佢話都入唔到去,就係咁樣,跟住我就返番轉頭。 4 許偉強資深大律師:我哋睇到你嘅證供亦都顯示大火發生咗之後,你就確實係有啲證供講咗 5 話你問咗鄭小姐去攞嗰啲SDN 嘅,係咪? 6 鍾傑文先生:係,係。 7 許偉強資深大律師:有冇咩嘢原因你又當時喺大火發生之後,你又想去問鄭小姐攞SDN 嚟睇 8 呢? 9 鍾傑文先生:其實我都擔心管理處嘅。 10 許偉強資深大律師:你擔心管理處? 11 鍾傑文先生:係。 12 許偉強資深大律師:好,咁大個火災,當晚亦都好多新聞報道,你都一定有睇完先瞓覺㗎? 13 鍾傑文先生:係,一路睇,其實都瞓得唔好,係。 14 許偉強資深大律師:你就話林先生打畀你就話佢好驚,係咪? 15 鍾傑文先生:唔。 16 許偉強資深大律師:你自己有冇擔心過你自己嘅責任? 17 鍾傑文先生:我有擔心過㗎。 18 許偉強資深大律師:你都有,係咪呀? 19 鍾傑文先生:我有擔心過。 20 許偉強資深大律師:你自己都會擔心? 21 鍾傑文先生:擔心。 22 許偉強資深大律師:有冇啲乜嘢做得唔好,可唔可以咁講? 23 鍾傑文先生:其實我當時個心情就好複雜嘅,即係我諗每一個香港人都見到咁嘅情況都好唔 24 開心。然後我當時嚟講,我都未諗到去擔心自己先嘅,咁我因為一路睇唔到有份 25 SDN,我係擔心管理處多啲,因為我自問當時嚟講,我都唔覺得自己有咩嘢問題, 26 因為我知道好大鑊。 27 許偉強資深大律師:其實當時其實個事實就係你係喺11 月26 號嗰日,其實先至第一次去問 28 去攞SDN,同意嘛? 29 鍾傑文先生:唔係,唔同意。 30 許偉強資深大律師:因為喺火災發生咗之後,你更加催促鄭小姐攞SDN,係唔係就係因為你 31 想研究下自己有冇一個責任嘅問題,同意嘛? 32 鍾傑文先生:我係唔完全同意嘅,因為第一,嗰個電掣真係唔係我關架嘛,我係擔心管理處 33 冇跟程序多。不過,我嗰陣時當然我都奇怪嘅,消防處有加滅火筒,冇理由咁樣 34 囉,即係但係你又冇見到,咁有啲所謂個擔心,都係其實即係畀個WhatsApp 佢, 35 正如一個電話咁樣,我亦都--係喇,就係咁。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第六天

51 本謄本由Epiq 編製 許偉強資深大律師:好,我諗最後一個問題我想問下你,就係我尋日都有問過黃先生呢個問 1 題。 2 鍾傑文先生:係。 3 許偉強資深大律師:就住嗰啲《實務守則》,嗰啲(English Spoken),咁我有問過佢 4 一個問題嘅,就係如果--麻煩可以大家去睇一睇B2/912。B2/912 就係有一個 5 (English Spoken ),(English Spoken )以我哋理解就係一個 6 (English Spoken),就係有關即係檢查嗰個裝置嗰陣時嘅一個清單嚟嘅。 7 鍾傑文先生:唔。 8 許偉強資深大律師:咁喺第919 頁,919 頁呢度有講過,寫住3.8 嗰度有個(English 9 Spoken),我諗你琴日都有聽過我問黃先生呢個問題。 10 鍾傑文先生:係。 11 許偉強資深大律師:3.8.2 就係「(English Spoken)」,咁(c)嗰度我哋睇到就係嗰 12 個(English Spoken),就有個警告,應該要有個咁嘅標籤,就係「此電掣同 13 時控制火警警報系統電源」。就住呢個問題,我想你睇番你嗰個畀警方嘅口供。 14 鍾傑文先生:唔。 15 許偉強資深大律師:畀警方嘅口供喺C12/1148 嗰度,對落,等陣先,應該係喺下一頁。睇 16 下先,係,第4 段,冇錯。 17 鍾傑文先生:唔。 18 許偉強資深大律師:第4 段呢度你係咁寫嘅,就2016 至到2023 同埋2025 年,置邦管理 19 理公司邀請你哋做個周年檢查,宏福苑八座,根據過往公司嗰個紀錄等等,確認每 20 座大廈擁有獨立消防系統,呢度係咁寫「包括消防水泵系統及火警鐘系統,而上述 21 兩部分系統為同一種電源掣供電,即如果其中一系統關閉,另外一個系統亦會關 22 閉。」即係呢個應該就係你咁多年最測試嗰陣時你都知道有咁嘅情況,係咪? 23 鍾傑文先生:係。 24 許偉強資深大律師:我哋都睇到啲圖,就住嗰個消防泵房嗰個總掣就冇一個特別好似喺 25 (English Spoken)要求嘅一個警告,就話呢個電掣可能牽連到其他系統,例 26 如警鐘系統等等,就冇一個咁嘅警告嘅,...(聽不清) 27 鍾傑文先生:我想問個(English Spoken)係邊一年? 28 許偉強資深大律師:2022 年嘅。 29 鍾傑文先生:Okay。當時1984 年起嘅時候,跟嗰個(English Spoken)可能冇加都唔 30 唔出奇嘅。 31 許偉強資深大律師:好,咁多年你一路做嘅時候,咁你一路做都會跟番當時做年檢時候嘅 32 (English Spoken)照計,係咪? 33 鍾傑文先生:我哋--呢個答案之前我回應過。 34 許偉強資深大律師:係,係,我想問多你一次。 35 鍾傑文先生:(English Spoken)其實咁講,係講緊起、測試之類嗰啲嘢,守則,以番 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第六天

52 本謄本由Epiq 編製 嗰一年年份。你講嗰樣嘢例如佢可能冇呢個告示牌,我哋需唔需要貼呢,其實我哋 1 都係跟核對表,核對表係冇嘅,係嘞,咁樣。因為有太多年份有唔同嗰啲嘢,其實 2 嗰個都係啲師傅,黃師傅中三畢業,李俊賢都係中五畢業,我諗全香港嘅消防公司 3 都未必做得到。 4 許偉強資深大律師:黃師傅中三畢業,佢尋日答我問題嗰陣時,佢都好坦誠咁講咗話如果有 5 一個咁嘅警告嘅話,係會安全啲嘅。 6 鍾傑文先生:認同嘅,呢點係認同嘅,認同嘅,我都認同,唔好話黃師傅。 7 許偉強資深大律師:但係你就話咁多年嘅檢測入面,你冇特別帶出呢個問題,就唔係你嘅責 8 任嚟嘅。 9 鍾傑文先生:係,冇帶出呢個問題。係,因為(English Spoken)2022。 10 許偉強資深大律師:明白,我聽到你講。唔該,主席,我冇其他問題。 11 陸啟康法官:其他涉事方?涉事方唔該。 12 孫靖乾資深大律師:係,主席,我都會有一啲問題,不過我留意到而家個時間,咁其實有一 13 啲嘅問題其實許大律師問咗,我諗可能我想--我哋睇下會唔會可以--即係而家仲有 14 十分鐘,我哋提前少少有個即係午休,因為其實有可能我想檢視下有啲問題,如果 15 係許大律師問咗,我就唔一定需要重複,就想慳番少少委員會嘅時間。 16 陸啟康法官:明白。最後可能就係Victory Fire 代表係都會有啲問題? 17 林樂夫大律師:主席,暫時有兩個覆問嘅,唔係好長嘅。 18 陸啟康法官:冇其他人士想?Okay。一係咁我哋就提早休息,我哋2 點15 分繼續。 19

20 12 時49 分聆訊押後 21 14 時15 分聆訊恢復 22

23 陸啟康法官:係,孫大律師。 24 孫靖乾資深大律師:好,多謝主席,多謝兩位委員。午安,鍾先生。 25 鍾傑文先生:你好。 26 孫靖乾資深大律師:我其實有少少問題想同你繼續去澄清,我想首先去可能睇番你嘅證人供 27 詞喺WS2/1529 頁,喺WS2/1529 頁裏面,或者我哋可能等一等,係嘞,首先, 28 喺第5 段嗰度你係講到關於喺10 月16 號發生嘅情況。 29 鍾傑文先生:係嘅。 30 孫靖乾資深大律師:係。頭先就喺呢一個嘅獨立委員會以及係呢一個ISS 嘅代表大律師都有 31 問過你10 月16 號發生嘅一啲嘅情況。 32 鍾傑文先生:唔。 33 孫靖乾資深大律師:我而家有啲問題想同你再跟進一下。你喺10 月16 號呢度講到就係話有 34 同事,你就可能唔記得係邊一位,一下就係唐慶麟先生或者唐小明先生就話畀你 35 知,就係喺嗰個天台上面消防嗰個水缸就係冇水嘅情況。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第六天

53 本謄本由Epiq 編製 鍾傑文先生:係。 1 孫靖乾資深大律師:係,呢個消防水缸冇水嘅情況係咪--你都知道其實根據有關一啲消防處 2 一啲嘅規則以及就係有一個通函,個通函就係我哋叫做2021 年1 號嘅嗰個通函。 3 鍾傑文先生:係。 4 孫靖乾資深大律師:就話有九樣嘅--最主要有九樣唔同嘅,九大系統裏面,如果係有一個關 5 掉嗰九大系統都係需要去知會呢個消防處,即係入嗰個所謂叫做(English 6 Spoken)嘅,係咪? 7 鍾傑文先生:係。 8 孫靖乾資深大律師:係,如果嗰個消防嘅水缸裏面係冇水,呢個都會係其中一個情況,係 9 咪? 10 鍾傑文先生:冇錯。 11 孫靖乾資深大律師:咁所以相信當時,根據你嘅理解,... 12 鍾傑文先生:唔嗯。 13 孫靖乾資深大律師:...因為你都係一個註冊嘅即係消防裝備嘅承建商--承辦商。 14 鍾傑文先生:係。 15 孫靖乾資深大律師:所以你應該都會即係相信照道理係會有一個同你相類似嘅承辦商,你會 16 假設係會做咗一個嘅可能(English Spoken),係咪呀? 17 鍾傑文先生:係。 18 孫靖乾資深大律師:咁所以如果係咁,當時話你當時嘅情況嚟講,你起碼你知道係針對一啲 19 消防水缸或者喺一啲嘅泵房裏面,包括上水泵,以致有可能就係頭先講到就係話嗰 20 個消防加壓泵都有可能係佢哋關掉,然之後做咗一啲有關嘅(English 21 Spoken)。 22 鍾傑文先生:係。 23 孫靖乾資深大律師:據你當時嘅推測。 24 鍾傑文先生:係呀,冇錯。 25 孫靖乾資深大律師:係,好,跟住就--你亦都知道其實相關嘅工程呢,即係或者係其他人去 26 進行嘅工程就係針對一個大廈,嗰八棟大廈上面嗰個消防水缸,就係有一個鋪設一 27 啲可能係一啲嘅磚或者瓦嘅情況,等等嘅工程。 28 鍾傑文先生:等等,即係個表面嘅工--係喇。 29 孫靖乾資深大律師:好,咁我亦都會想問一問你嘞,就係喺呢個時候,你就話你有同呢一個 30 嘅ISS,即係管理處嘅同事,應該係鄭小姐。 31 鍾傑文先生:冇錯。 32 孫靖乾資深大律師:你就有講話你-- 根據你所講,就你要求佢去畀嗰個(English 33 Spoken)畀你去睇嘅? 34 鍾傑文先生:冇錯。 35 孫靖乾資深大律師:係。我想問,當時嚟講你有冇問過佢其實有關嗰個嘅承建商係邊一間公 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第六天

54 本謄本由Epiq 編製 司呀? 1 鍾傑文先生:冇。 2 孫靖乾資深大律師:冇。好,跟住我亦都會想問一問你,我哋見到就係10 月16 號,跟住你 3 嘅證人供詞第6 段就係講10 月17 號嘅情況,17 號嘅情況都仍然一樣,即係我哋 4 見就係即係有做一啲嘅工程,然後如果我哋去到你個證人供詞嘅下一頁,下一頁就 5 係講到第7 段,你頭先講到就係由11 月17 號開始就有一位姓梁嘅,嗰個應該係 6 梁文仲(譯音)先生,就唔係宏泰嘅員工嚟嘅。 7 鍾傑文先生:冇錯,冇錯。 8 孫靖乾資深大律師:係嘞,即係等如係一啲可能係叫做外判嘅工人。 9 鍾傑文先生:冇錯。 10 孫靖乾資深大律師:就係去進行一啲--可能係一啲嘅--你當係一啲嘅維修或者一啲嘅工程。 11 鍾傑文先生:唔嗯。 12 孫靖乾資深大律師:係。然後睇第8 段,就去到11 月19 號就係宏泰嘅李俊賢以及黃健華 13 就有去到宏福苑現場進行一啲嘅執修工程? 14 鍾傑文先生:冇錯嘅。 15 孫靖乾資深大律師:而其實佢哋兩個去進行嘅執修工程亦都係包括嗰個九大系統其中之一, 16 就是嗰個FAS,即係嗰個嘅我哋叫做消防嘅火警鐘。 17 鍾傑文先生:冇錯,係。 18 孫靖乾資深大律師:係。咁當時首先係呢個李俊賢就發現到其實原來八棟大廈嗰個嘅刀掣, 19 即係話我哋叫嗰個總掣,係關掉。 20 鍾傑文先生:係,係呀。 21 孫靖乾資深大律師:然後就話咗畀黃健華知。 22 鍾傑文先生:係。 23 孫靖乾資深大律師:然後就再透過可能係宏泰嘅張小姐,亦都係話咗畀你知? 24 鍾傑文先生:係。 25 孫靖乾資深大律師:係。咁我有幾個問題想問你。 26 鍾傑文先生:係。 27 孫靖乾資深大律師:第一,當時據你哋嘅所知,即係據你嘅版本,你應該係喺11 月19 號嘅 28 時候,就第一次知道嗰八座大廈嘅刀掣都閂咗? 29 鍾傑文先生:係呀,係呀。 30 孫靖乾資深大律師:係。而據你了解,你之前喺10 月份嘅時候,一個月前,你已經知道其 31 實大廈係做緊一啲嘅消防水缸嘅工程? 32 鍾傑文先生:係。 33 孫靖乾資深大律師:如果喺咁嘅情況,你會唔會同意當時嚟講,你應該唔會諗到點解或者你 34 會覺得有懷疑點解做一啲消防水缸嘅工程,竟然係要閂咗嗰個嘅刀掣,係咪有咁樣 35 疑? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第六天

55 本謄本由Epiq 編製 鍾傑文先生:有諗過㗎,有㗎。 1 孫靖乾資深大律師:係,而且係咪應都一個諗法,有可能呢個刀掣係喺10 月16 號開始至到 2 當時11 月19 號已經關閉超過一個月。 3 鍾傑文先生:同意。 4 孫靖乾資深大律師:而且實際上,你哋當時係做緊一啲關於嗰個FAS 警鐘嘅一啲嘅維修工 5 程? 6 鍾傑文先生:係嘅。 7 孫靖乾資深大律師:你並冇知悉有其他嘅承建商係針對嗰個警鐘系統進行緊維修,即係你當 8 時冇得悉有個咁嘅訊息㗎嘛,係咪? 9 鍾傑文先生:當時嚟講係冇正確咁樣同你講得好清楚,淨係講話有人做緊嘢囉。大維修嗰啲 10 做緊嘢。 11 孫靖乾資深大律師:唔,而據你所知就係關於嗰個天台嘅水箱或者水缸,係咪? 12 鍾傑文先生:係囉,唔。 13 孫靖乾資深大律師:係嘞。你亦都冇再去問點解咁嘅--或者你有冇問過管理處點解咁嘅情況 14 要閂咗個刀掣,你有冇問過? 15 鍾傑文先生:冇。 16 孫靖乾資深大律師:昨天黃健華先生就喺作供時候就話,其實佢都覺得,針對嗰樣嘢覺得好 17 詫異,或者係即係覺得係好唔明白點解係要閂個刀掣,佢話有同你係一齊去討論 18 嘅。我想問喺討論咗嘅時候,你有冇覺得如果呢個情況,你都講咗,有可能嗰個刀 19 掣係關掉咗差唔多超過一個月,有呢個咁嘅可能性,問題可以係好嚴重㗎? 20 鍾傑文先生:有架,我哋做消防係有㗎。 21 孫靖乾資深大律師:正常如果你要做嗰個警鐘嘅話,就算你係話要換警鐘,其實好多時,甚 22 至乎係唔需要係入到(English Spoken),因為往往其實一日之內,24 小時之 23 內都可以完成,即係如果你要更換一啲零件,同唔同意呀? 24 鍾傑文先生:係。 25 孫靖乾資深大律師:所以如果係要就嗰個警鐘係唔--即係嗰個刀掣閂咗咁耐,你個警鐘係唔 26 會發揮任何作用,而係超過一個咁長嘅時間,呢個係好唔尋常,同唔同意呀? 27 鍾傑文先生:係呀。 28 孫靖乾資深大律師:好。咁你話你有問管理處,你都話你擔心管理處,問佢攞呢個 29 (English Spoken),除咗問佢攞(English Spoken),據你所講,有冇 30 同佢哋講過話其實係唔應該閂個刀掣或者如果閂咗刀掣嘅時候有啲乜嘢嘅影響等 31 等,有冇講過?你或者宏泰任何人。 32 鍾傑文先生:我喺呢啲準備口供嘅時候,我都同黃健華佢哋講,最緊要講個真實你記得嘅 33 嘢,佢當時同我講嘅時候就係話,佢喺管理處入面同鄭小姐傾大概五至十分鐘,而 34 佢同我對話嘅時候,係佢好清楚同我講佢哋係閂咗個警鐘扲手㗎。即係我幾 35 (English Spoken),係黃健華佢唔肯定自己係咪真係有講過,因為佢當時好 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第六天

56 本謄本由Epiq 編製 強調所有系統閂晒,因為當時嗰一刻嚟講,我覺得唔係警鐘扲手咁簡單,係所有。 1 所以呢個就係--然後我都,我可唔可以再講多關於呢個內容呀嗰啲呢? 2 孫靖乾資深大律師:可以,可以。 3 鍾傑文先生:因為我點解話有討論呢?當時嚟講呢,我係覺得係咪技術上可以開到㗎咁樣? 4 咁我叫佢理解下跟下喇,佢睇咗上水泵房嗰啲喉管有拆到,我覺得個工程唔止係呢 5 樣,我哋亦都唔知道究竟係啲乜嘢人去做,做啲咩嘢工程,真係唔知道。如果我哋 6 或者提議人哋去貿貿然開番呢,係會做成危險,亦都唔知個工期做幾耐,因為都好 7 耐下。所以我哋都係強調一樣嘢,咁傾計嘅對話其實都可能話,雖然我唔喺現場, 8 不過次次都係有冇...(聽不清)咁樣。咁所以我諗佢當時嚟講就表達咗,好吖, 9 有間消防公司跟,正如我咁講,咁人哋咁樣做,我又唔知詳情,咁嘅情況我哋只能 10 夠盡力做到呢一樣嘢,話畀佢聽個情況而家係咁樣囉。 11 孫靖乾資深大律師:好,鍾先生,咁我繼續。跟住另外就頭先我哋都睇番你個證人供詞。 12 鍾傑文先生:唔。 13 孫靖乾資深大律師:證人供詞,我哋頭先睇到就係第8 段嘅時候講11 月19 號,頭先許大 14 律師都好詳細問咗好多嘢,我就唔重複嘞。 15 鍾傑文先生:係。 16 孫靖乾資深大律師:但係我就係想你再睇一睇第9 段嘅,第9 段嘅時候呢,我哋見到喺11 17 月21 號嘅時候,李俊賢先生亦都有再去到宏福苑,當時亦都係發現起碼個H 座嗰 18 個嘅--即係個刀掣都仍然係畀關上。咁所以即係站在你嘅角度或者係宏泰嘅角度嚟 19 講,就唔止知道有可能係由10 月16 號開始,其實由11 月嘅19 至21 日,至少 20 呢三日期間都一直係持續地關閉嘅。 21 鍾傑文先生:係。 22 孫靖乾資深大律師:跟住我就會有啲問題就會想再同你去澄清下,第一樣嘢我想問一問你, 23 就係想你睇一睇係關於呢個宏志閣嗰個警鐘系統。 24 鍾傑文先生:唔。 25 孫靖乾資深大律師:就麻煩你就睇一睇呢一個R1,R1,應該係第642 頁嘅。 26 鍾傑文先生:係。 27 孫靖乾資深大律師:呢個R1/642 頁,呢個就係你喺2025 年3 月嘅時候做年檢,其實針對 28 八棟大廈,你都有針對嗰個警報系統就有個年檢嘅核對表係做咗出嚟嘅,你記得 29 喇? 30 鍾傑文先生:係,記得。 31 孫靖乾資深大律師:係,係。咁而我哋特別而家睇到呢個係關於宏志閣嘅,如果有關宏志閣 32 嘅,我哋一路睇一睇落去。我哋可以睇到就係喺第2(a)嗰度就有講過就係其中有 33 啲地方,即係譬如話嗰個手動嘅啟動裝置係咪完好無損,安裝穩妥。呢度就係有個 34 「否」字我哋見到。 35 鍾傑文先生:係嘅。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第六天

57 本謄本由Epiq 編製 孫靖乾資深大律師:再睇落去,第643 頁,咁就大部分都係話係「是」,即係話係冇問題 1 嘅,就除咗係嗰個(c)嗰個部分就係唔適用,即係不適用。 2 鍾傑文先生:唔。 3 孫靖乾資深大律師:係嘞,跟住我哋睇下嗰個火警個警報裝置,亦都見到,其實第3.1 嗰度 4 呢,就除咗係(a)嗰度,亦都係話嗰個火警警報裝置係咪即係叫做個聲響係完好無 5 損,安裝穩妥嗰度就有個「否」,但係其他呢,其實都係我哋見到係寫住係個 6 「是」。即(b) 同(c) 。然我跟住想你再睇一睇就係第664 頁,同樣都係 7 R1/664,呢個R1/664 都係針對番宏志閣,同樣都係呢個宏志閣,即係呢個H 8 座,喺佢嘅消防裝置同埋個設備裏面有一個叫FS251 嚟嘅應該。 9 鍾傑文先生:係,冇錯。 10 孫靖乾資深大律師:係嘞,如果我哋睇一睇就係話,如果第一部分基本上都係話即係你做嗰 11 個年檢嘅情況,咁我哋睇到有包括埋就係嗰個即係(English Spoken)嘅,咁 12 係話其實都係滿足到有關嘅消防要求,除咗喺第三部分所注明嘅一啲(English 13 Spoken)即係或者喺裏面有呢一啲嘅即係可能即係叫做唔完備嘅地方。 14 鍾傑文先生:唔嗯。 15 孫靖乾資深大律師:咁我哋睇一睇跟住嗰個Part 3,即係第三部分。其實第三部分如果針 16 對嗰個嘅警鐘,FS,即係個(English Spoken)嚟講。似乎當時呀,據你哋宏 17 泰所做咗個年檢之後嘅結果,其實只係有以下嘅情況,就係喺第24 樓同埋30 樓, 18 就係話嗰個(English Spoken),即係嗰個玻璃係有兩個係有問題嘅,或者係 19 失效嘅。另外就喺18 樓同31 樓就有兩個嘅(English Spoken),即係嗰個警 20 鐘係失效嘅。所以即係話如果以31 層樓嚟講呢,基本上即係話係超過九成都係冇 21 問題嘅。 22 鍾傑文先生:冇錯。 23 孫靖乾資深大律師:係,咁但係我哋都從而家嗰啲證據睇到,就係喺嗰個宏福苑11 月26 號 24 嘅大火之後,雖然呢個宏志閣,宏志閣就冇著火嘅。但係都有一啲證據就話其實相 25 關嗰個警鐘系統就係即係都係失靈,都係--就算譬如話將嗰個刀掣係整番,即係整 26 番著個刀掣,開番刀掣,依然嗰個警鐘系統都係失靈嘅。我想問呢個你會唔會有啲 27 乜嘢嘅你會唔會有回應,即係有冇啲咩嘢原因,即係其實你哋都做完年檢,但係即 28 係會係整個嗰個警鐘系統,全棟大廈嗰個警鐘系統其實都會失靈嘅呢? 29 鍾傑文先生:其實真係有好多原因都可以導致到呢件事。即係個設計上,可能我講會長少 30 少。 31 孫靖乾資深大律師:係。 32 鍾傑文先生:成個警鐘扲手嗰個系統,由電源--呢個畀電源佢,然後經過燈喉,經過線路, 33 然後就串聯嘅方式或者並聯實際上,手拖手。每個扲手、每個警鐘,其中一笪地 34 方,喺三十一個位置,其中一個地方可能有一刻過載,佢就會燒fuse,短路。咁 35 有人哪怕一開頭一個狀態,佢去閂咗佢,然後可能當時嚟講有好多危急嘅嘢或者之 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第六天

58 本謄本由Epiq 編製 前有人郁過、開過,而有一刻某啲位係斷路都會導致佢有問題,所以點解要根本 1 囉,係囉,咁樣囉。即係要再細心再去調查究竟係咪某啲線路、某個樓層係損壞 2 呢?推測番究竟係咁樣囉。所以好難講,因為都一個好長嘅時間,亦都有咁多人鬥 3 過。當中如果要人--以設計嚟講呢,我哋即係都知道都幾耐下咁樣,咁所以都唔係 4 一個好新嘅系統,容易出現問題嘅嘢都會多啲。 5 孫靖乾資深大律師:好,同樣地,我想你睇一睇就係林文欣先生嘅證人供詞。 6 鍾傑文先生:係。 7 孫靖乾資深大律師:林文欣先生證人供詞就喺WS2,我想你睇就係第1217 頁嘅。1217 頁 8 呢就係講到,就係話喺嗰個11 月26 號發生火警嘅時候,咁即係大約係兩點半之後 9 嘅一個情況,尤其我哋睇到就係第21 段,即係最下面。咁根據林先生所講呢,就 10 係話佢喺發生咗火警之後呢,咁佢係--佢話喺宏仁閣,佢就去咗宏仁閣嗰度,咁就 11 開番個刀掣,個消防鐘係響起。但係跟住佢就去到呢個宏道閣,佢同樣地就係嘗試 12 用手就係即係打破消防嘅扲手掣,就發覺聽唔到嗰個響聲。於是乎佢就開咗嗰個加 13 壓泵房,即係消防個加壓泵個房門,然之後亦都係重新啟動番嗰個刀掣,但係佢記 14 得嗰個刀掣啟動之後就冇聽見呢個消防鐘聲響起。 15 如果我問你相同嘅問題,即係當時喺火警發生冇幾耐,已經係林先生儘快就係 16 去嗰個宏道閣嗰度就係打開番嗰個刀掣,點解嗰個警鐘系統都係唔能夠去--即係都 17 係唔響嘅呢?呢個其實我諗你嘅答案都會差唔多。 18 鍾傑文先生:係嘞,冇錯。 19 孫靖乾資深大律師:我跟住就要問你,如果係咁嘅情況,兩樣嘢,第一,頭先許大律師問你 20 嘅時候,都有提過就係話,原來喺宏泰其實係有一個嘅合同嘅,即係同埋呢一個嘅 21 管理公司,就係話其實一個為期兩年嘅合同。 22 鍾傑文先生:唔嗯。 23 孫靖乾資深大律師:咁頭先去睇個合同嘅時候呢,我留意到好似都有講就係話其實要按一個 24 (English Spoken)。 25 鍾傑文先生:係。 26 孫靖乾資深大律師:即係話每三個月嘅時間係要去即係做一啲嘅檢視,係咪有咁樣嘅情況? 27 鍾傑文先生:我頭先都講得好清楚,咁就--係囉,佢係我收到嘅時候係3 月份,係囉。咁- 28 -然後我哋係大家認同咗嗰份唔計嘞,我淨係報價同你做一次年檢,一樣係20,000 29 鈫,我哋有喺個紀錄嗰度將呢一份報價同埋發票就夾埋一齊,我哋亦都收到置邦嘅 30 找數嘅,係2 萬鈫嘅,係嘞,咁樣囉。 31 孫靖乾資深大律師:我哋或者對你公道少少,我哋睇一睇番嗰個相關嘅頁數。 32 鍾傑文先生:係。 33 孫靖乾資深大律師:應該喺H1/33 頁,H1/33 頁,我哋見到就係呢度其實係有寫,係嘞, 34 係嘞,呢度我哋可以睇到其實係有寫到有個係「(English Spoken)」,咁嗰 35 個「(English Spoken)」,係嘞,我哋可能33 頁繼續落番去先,33 頁嗰 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第六天

59 本謄本由Epiq 編製 度,其實個(English Spoken)嗰度呢,我哋見到其實係包括就係要去叫做去 1 即係(English Spoken),即係話你都係去睇一睇或者去check 一check, 2 就係包括有一啲可能係(English Spoken),即係嗰個都係警鐘裏面個玻璃同 3 埋一啲嘅(English Spoken)。我想問下實際上宏泰有冇係喺3 月嗰個年檢之 4 後係以一個(English Spoken),即係譬如話每三個月嘅情況再去針對呢啲咁 5 樣嘅消防設備係進行一啲嘅檢查㗎? 6 鍾傑文先生:冇。 7 孫靖乾資深大律師:係,好。第二樣嘢我亦都想問,頭先你亦都喺作供嘅時候就話因為有一 8 啲配件係即係未有,所以就係10 月份嘅時候就首先做咗啲水喉嘅工程,就去到11 9 月嘅時候先做嗰個警鐘,或者係其他一啲,即係關於嗰個FAS 嘅一啲修補嘅工程。 10 喺11 月去做嘅時候,據你所知你亦都知道當時嚟講嗰個大掣係停咗,你話要等到 11 佢係恢復番啲消防設備嘅時候,你先至可以做嗰個測試。 12 鍾傑文先生:係。 13 孫靖乾資深大律師:係嘞,但係頭先許大律師問你,你就冇問過佢哋會幾時係會恢復番嗰個 14 消防設備,或者預計幾時完工,你冇問過喇,係咪呀? 15 鍾傑文先生:唔嗯。 16 孫靖乾資深大律師:所以其實就算只係站在宏泰嘅角度嚟講,你同唔同意都會係--有可能係 17 首先就係由10 月份開始,最遲,10 月份,咁佢係搵你哋即係去做嗰個叫做修補嘅 18 工程。咁因為零件係未有,拖到去11 月,以至由11 月份,你唔知道佢幾時係完 19 工,冇得進行測試,其實都會有一個長時間你係唔會知道有關嗰個警鐘系統係咪會 20 失靈或者係咪能夠即係如常運作,同唔同意? 21 鍾傑文先生:係呀。 22 孫靖乾資深大律師:咁跟住我亦都想問一問你,就係我哋睇到你做嗰個--宏泰做個年檢係 23 2025 年嘅3 月份。 24 鍾傑文先生:冇錯。 25 孫靖乾資深大律師:有關嘅文件顯示,就係管理公司就去到2025 年10 月份左右,即係過 26 咗大約你當係七個月,或者六、七個月,就係要求大家係去即係做嗰個招標。 27 鍾傑文先生:唔。 28 孫靖乾資深大律師:咁你哋去即係報價等等嘅。 29 鍾傑文先生:係。 30 孫靖乾資深大律師:我想問,即係喺你嘅認知裏面,即係做一個年檢,然之後係過咗六、七 31 個月時間先至再做番一啲嘅修補嘅工作,呢個係普唔普遍嘅呢? 32 鍾傑文先生:普唔普遍? 33 孫靖乾資深大律師:或者即係呢樣嘢係咪會即係,時不時都會有發生,即係好少見定係點, 34 可唔可以講一講? 35 鍾傑文先生:唔(English Spoken),不如咁講,唔(English Spoken) 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第六天

60 本謄本由Epiq 編製 孫靖乾資深大律師:唔(English Spoken),即係唔係一個特別嘅情況? 1 鍾傑文先生:係呀,唔係一個特別即係好罕有嘅情況我覺得。 2 孫靖乾資深大律師:係,我再問你兩個問題。 3 鍾傑文先生:係。 4 孫靖乾資深大律師:你自己就本身冇落過去現場,即係宏福苑。 5 鍾傑文先生:唔。 6 孫靖乾資深大律師:咁我想問,據你啲同事有落過去現場,即係包括就係可能係李俊賢,又 7 或者係可能係黃生等等,仲有其他嘅一啲嘅可能嘅員工。有冇人同你講過話喺宏福 8 苑嘅大廈裏面係見到譬如話大堂有張貼過一啲即係關於(English Spoken)嘅 9 情況? 10 鍾傑文先生:冇,有留意過,冇嘅。 11 孫靖乾資深大律師:即係係佢同你講過呢個情況,話係冇見到? 12 鍾傑文先生:係,冇見到。 13 孫靖乾資深大律師:好,咁最後一樣嘢我就想問埋你,就係想你睇一睇另外係呢個ISS 嘅其 14 中一位證人嘅供詞,就係羅先生,羅國瑞先生,咁就想你睇一睇呢個文件夾WS2/ 15 第1234 頁。好,呢度我就想你睇一睇喺第21 段嗰個證人供詞,羅先生有一個講 16 法,佢就話佢之前就未試過即係進行過一個消防水缸嘅放水,但係佢就曾經喺一啲 17 嘅註冊嘅消防承辦商,例如宏泰消防工程有限公司進行年檢嘅時候,從佢哋係理解 18 過係點樣樣去進行呢一個消防水缸嘅放水,咁亦都係有講過就係話有涉及一啲即係 19 唔同嘅步驟。咁我純粹想同你問一問,即係對於羅先生呢個講法,你知唔知道呢個 20 情況嘅? 21 鍾傑文先生:我哋係完全唔知道,唔知道。 22 孫靖乾資深大律師:你「完全唔知道」嘅意思係?不如咁,首先,因為宏泰都有--除咗你之 23 外,有唔同嘅同事,首先講你自己先。 24 鍾傑文先生:係。 25 孫靖乾資深大律師:你自己有--知唔知道有咁嘅情況?係你唔知定係話你可以好肯定冇發生 26 過,定係點樣樣?淨係針對你自己嚟講。 27 鍾傑文先生:我唔知佢哋曾經點樣理解過我哋放水。 28 孫靖乾資深大律師:唔。 29 鍾傑文先生:係。 30 孫靖乾資深大律師:即係呢個你唔知? 31 鍾傑文先生:我唔知道。 32 孫靖乾資深大律師:如果從你啲員工身上有冇即係得知過? 33 鍾傑文先生:冇聽過。 34 孫靖乾資深大律師:冇聽過。 35 好,主席,可能容許我好少嘅時間,我check 一check 睇下有冇遺漏,有冇 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第六天

61 本謄本由Epiq 編製 其他問題。 1 我淨係想問多你一樣嘢,如果你嗰個--睇番你嗰個證人供詞,咁就係喺呢一個 2 WS2,就去到係第1532 頁。唔好意思,係要再去後啲,去到最後1535 頁嘅。我 3 純粹想同你了解下,呢度第18 段你就話「據你所知喺正常程序下,每次嗰個掛牌 4 嘅有效期一般就係不應超過十四天」。 5 鍾傑文先生:冇錯。 6 孫靖乾資深大律師:呢個你呢度嘅講法係咪都係根據番其實相關嘅消防處佢亦都有一啲嘅規 7 定,或者係包括個通函,就係話... 8 鍾傑文先生:冇錯。 9 孫靖乾資深大律師:...喺一般嘅情況嚟講,每次其實掛牌就係都會係即係唔超過十四天, 10 如果超過十四天,佢哋係要再去攞一個現場(English Spoken)? 11 鍾傑文先生:冇錯。 12 孫靖乾資深大律師:係,好。 13 好,唔該晒主席、兩位委員,我冇其他問題。 14 陸啟康法官:唔該晒孫大律師,跟住到林大律師,係咪? 15 林樂夫大律師:係,唔該晒主席,我有兩個範疇嘅。 16 鍾生,咁就我哋一齊去睇番嗰個合約,H1 嘅34 頁。係,咁34 頁我哋可以睇 17 落少少就有簽名,左面個簽名係咪你嘅簽名嚟? 18 鍾傑文先生:冇錯。 19 林樂夫大律師:咁我想問下,你係幾時簽? 20 鍾傑文先生:2023 年10 月幾嘅,好快,應該就佢(English Spoken)完過嚟之後幾日 21 內,確實日期唔記得,應該就唔會超過11 月。 22 林樂夫大律師:咁係你--因為我哋見到右手面有另一個簽名。 23 鍾傑文先生:係。 24 林樂夫大律師:咁你23 年簽嘅時候,有冇右手面嗰個管理處嗰個簽名? 25 鍾傑文先生:冇。 26 林樂夫大律師:咁你收到一份有兩個簽名嘅文件係幾時? 27 鍾傑文先生:2025 年3 月4 號或者5 號,林文欣先生send 畀我,第一次睇到,我亦都當 28 時問咗我哋嘅小姐「公司有冇收過」,佢話冇。 29 林樂夫大律師:你講嘅「小姐」係咪張小姐? 30 鍾傑文先生:冇錯。 31 林樂夫大律師:好,咁我哋睇第35 頁。因為啱啱你較早前,今日晏晝就有提過話你都收咗 32 錢㗎嘛,係咪? 33 鍾傑文先生:係。 34 林樂夫大律師:係,咁我哋睇一睇35 頁,係咪你講嗰個20,000 鈫,就係你收咗呢筆 35 20,000 鈫? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第六天

62 本謄本由Epiq 編製 鍾傑文先生:冇錯。 1 林樂夫大律師:我哋睇番日期係25 年5 月24 號,係咪? 2 鍾傑文先生:係。 3 林樂夫大律師:咁呢個就係相關喺25 年3 月做嘅年檢嘅費用,係咪? 4 鍾傑文先生:係。 5 林樂夫大律師:咁我想問下你,咁24 年你有冇同樣地收到20,000 鈫? 6 鍾傑文先生:冇。 7 林樂夫大律師:好,咁我哋去另一個範疇,因為鍾生你其實喺呢兩日證供都提過有SDN 嘅第 8 三部分,係咪? 9 鍾傑文先生:係。 10 林樂夫大律師:不如我哋睇一睇文件,即係睇下可唔可以等大家清楚下嗰個第三部分你所指 11 嘅係咩嘢?咁麻煩去R1/72 ,係,呢張就-- 係,72 ,呢張就唔係Victory 12 Fire 嘅,但係我哋見到嗰個消防裝置關閉通知書嗰個嘅格式都一樣,係咪? 13 鍾傑文先生:全部一樣。 14 林樂夫大律師:咁你所講嘅第三部分,係咪就係我哋而家喺第R1/72 頁見到下面有一個第 15 三部分,叫做「恢復消防裝置」? 16 鍾傑文先生:冇錯。 17 林樂夫大律師:咁不如你講下呢個第三部分,即係喺一般嘅消防承辦商係點樣--幾時先填咁 18 樣? 19 鍾傑文先生:好,好似以宏福苑呢個情況咁,中華發展佢入咗,然後佢個工程完晒,佢就要 20 填番工程完成日期,連埋嗰個相關嘅(English Spoken)FS251,裏面就係第 21 二部分,而呢個第二部分嘅項目要對應番佢喺第一部分入嘅FS251,去證明佢呢個 22 期間,喺呢一日已經完成咗咁樣。而入呢一份form 嘅時候,嗰個承辦商係有責任 23 都要係恢復呢個系統嘅。 24 林樂夫大律師:唔該晒,鍾生。 25 主席,我冇其他問題。 26 陸啟康法官:唔該晒,冇其他涉事方想問題?就多謝你畀證供,鍾生。 27 鍾傑文先生:好。 28 陸啟康法官:你作供完畢㗎嘞,唔該晒你。 29 林樂夫大律師:係,主席,有關於鍾生,因為有委員會嘅大律師李大律師就邀請鍾生去做一 30 個補充證人陳述書,係關於五十七分鐘鍾生同林生嘅對話,咁我問咗指示律師,我 31 哋希望係後日可以提供到,咁就淨係講呢五十七分鐘嘅事情。 32 陸啟康法官:冇問題吖嘛? 33 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋冇反對,我哋會同林大律師嘅--指示佢嘅律師樓去跟進呢件事。唔 34 該晒。 35 林樂夫大律師:唔該晒。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第六天

63 本謄本由Epiq 編製 陸啟康法官:得,鍾生你可以離開,唔該。 1

2 14 時49 分宏泰消防工程有限公司董事及工程師證人鍾傑文先生作供完畢 3 14 時49 分宏泰消防工程有限公司電工證人李俊賢先生開始作供 4

5 陸啟康法官:係。 6 李澍桓大律師:主席,下一位證人係李俊賢先生。係,李生,喺你面前有一張聲明詞,麻煩 7 你先企起身讀出嗰個聲明詞。 8 李俊賢先生:本人李俊賢聲明,本人所作證供,盡本人所知、所悉及所信,均屬真實。 9 李澍桓大律師:係,請坐。李生,我哋知道你就係喺大概18 年嘅時候,就係受聘於宏泰消 10 防Victory Fire。 11 李俊賢先生:係。 12 李澍桓大律師:就做一個電工,係咪? 13 李俊賢先生:係。 14 李澍桓大律師:咁就住今次我哋都知道25 年11 月26 號宏福苑大火嘅呢個事件,你事後第 15 一就向警方做咗一份口供,個日期就係25 年12 月1 號。 16 李俊賢先生:係。 17 李澍桓大律師:咁亦都隨住成立咗呢個獨立委員會,你亦都就住呢個獨立委員會嘅要求做咗 18 一份證人嘅陳述書,咁嗰個日期就係26 年2 月25 號嘅。 19 李俊賢先生:係。 20 李澍桓大律師:咁我相信兩份文件你都有機會睇過,係咪? 21 李俊賢先生:有。 22 李澍桓大律師:咁我亦都相信你可以確認你入面所講及嘅一啲事件都係以你所知係真實? 23 李俊賢先生:係。 24 李澍桓大律師:好,我其實提問唔長嘅,只有兩個主要嘅方面想問你嘅啫。第一就係關於你 25 嗰個口供,兩份口供都其實分別講咗,你其實參與宏福苑嗰個所謂執修嗰個時間, 26 其實應該就係第一,就係25 年3 月做年檢嗰陣時,係咪? 27 李俊賢先生:係。 28 李澍桓大律師:當其時,我相信就應該係你同黃健華先生,你嘅主管一齊去做嘅? 29 李俊賢先生:係。 30 李澍桓大律師:咁我哋都喺今日,其實都有作供期間睇過一啲相,我相信嗰啲年檢嘅時候, 31 你嘅習慣就係如果要做維修,要跟進嘅項目,你就會影低相做存檔嘅,係咪? 32 李俊賢先生:係。 33 李澍桓大律師:如果反過來講,即係其實就算有驗過都好,但係驗完冇問題嗰啲你就唔會特 34 登去影相,係咪? 35 李俊賢先生:冇錯。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第六天

64 本謄本由Epiq 編製 李澍桓大律師:有一個我哋所謂核對表,你都有見過? 1 李俊賢先生:有見過,但就唔係我負責去填嘅。 2 李澍桓大律師:我就係想講,你其實實際上喺呢個年檢嘅過程入面,你實際上會參與嘅工作 3 係乜? 4 李俊賢先生:會去每一層試一試佢啲扲手、警鐘響唔響,同埋個喉轆有冇水。 5 李澍桓大律師:你做呢一個過程,即係呢個動作,呢個檢查嘅時候,係你自己一個人做,定 6 還是同黃生會一齊做,佢做紀錄,你去做測試咁? 7 李俊賢先生:會分開嘅,佢有時就會--即係我可能就帶埋個學師咁就一齊去做嘅,因為佢上 8 面都多嘢睇嘅,同埋仲有啲緊急照明燈嗰啲,係。 9 李澍桓大律師:所以個照片就係緊要,因為呢個就係你記錄嘅方式,係咪? 10 李俊賢先生:係,係。 11 李澍桓大律師:即係所以一檢查到有問題嘅,就即刻影低相,就做個記號係邊一層樓有問題 12 咁? 13 李俊賢先生:係。 14 李澍桓大律師:喺嗰個年檢入面,相信其中一個檢查嘅地方就係八座樓,每一座樓上面嘅所 15 謂天面嘅消防水缸,係咪? 16 李俊賢先生:係。 17 李澍桓大律師:你檢查嘅時候,年檢嘅時候,需唔需要望入去個水缸入面睇個情況? 18 李俊賢先生:要。 19 李澍桓大律師:你記唔記得2025 年3 月你睇個水缸嘅時候,入面係石屎定係鋪咗磚,係乜 20 嘢嘅狀態? 21 李俊賢先生:石屎,冇鋪磚嘅。 22 李澍桓大律師:即係冇磚嘅? 23 李俊賢先生:係。 24 李澍桓大律師:我哋聽過黃先生嘅證供,咁亦都睇過相關嘅一啲年檢嘅紀錄或者核對表,咁 25 基本上佢認為八座樓入面,個水缸起碼就冇出現漏水,冇必要要去做維修嘅情況 26 嘅,你同唔同意呢個講法? 27 李俊賢先生:同意。 28 李澍桓大律師:好,跟住第二個範疇想問你就係關於執修嗰個情況,咁我哋知道水喉工就應 29 該係2025 年10 月開始做? 30 李俊賢先生:係。 31 李澍桓大律師:當時你就冇參與嘅? 32 李俊賢先生:我冇參與嘅。 33 李澍桓大律師:你如果根據你提供畀委員會同埋警方嘅資料都係,其實你參與咗只係--首先 34 日數嚟講就兩日? 35 李俊賢先生:係。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第六天

65 本謄本由Epiq 編製 李澍桓大律師:第一日你參與嘅就係11 月19 號2025 年? 1 李俊賢先生:係。 2 李澍桓大律師:根據你所講就係大概11 點鐘到達宏福苑,去同黃先生一齊做一啲檢查嘅工 3 作,係咪?即係執修嘅工作? 4 李俊賢先生:係。 5 李澍桓大律師:如果我睇你嘅口供,你其實應該當日做到大概兩點半喥,就離開咗宏福苑? 6 李俊賢先生:冇錯。 7 李澍桓大律師:第二日你有參與嘅就喺25 年11 月21 號? 8 李俊賢先生:係。 9 李澍桓大律師:你到達嘅時間就1 點30 分? 10 李俊賢先生:係。 11 李澍桓大律師:離開就大概3 點30 分? 12 李俊賢先生:係。 13 李澍桓大律師:所以其實你參與呢個執修嘅呢兩日,我計埋就其實兩日加埋都係大概六個半 14 小時喥嘅啫,係咪? 15 李俊賢先生:係,差唔多。 16 李澍桓大律師:其中,當然,喺你執修入面,你嘅證供係緊要嘅就係似乎喺11 月19 號,似 17 乎你係宏泰消防第一位嘅員工,發現咗八座大廈入面嗰個電源嘅總掣,即係所謂嗰 18 個刀掣係閂咗嘅,係咪? 19 李俊賢先生:係。 20 李澍桓大律師:咁我見到你就話都有跟住向黃先生,亦都有向鍾老闆,亦都有向張小姐匯報 21 咗呢件事,係咪? 22 李俊賢先生:係。 23 李澍桓大律師:我想你睇番一個我哋之前睇過嘅一啲WhatsApp,就喺R1/686 到692 24 頁,咁都睇過好多次,最頂嗰度其實我哋就見到宏福苑A 座宏仁閣嘅一個群組,係 25 咪? 26 李俊賢先生:係。 27 李澍桓大律師:就其中我哋睇到“9757”,頭嗰四個字嗰個,其實我哋知道就應該係你嘅電 28 話嚟,係咪? 29 李俊賢先生:冇錯。 30 李澍桓大律師:我哋直接唔累贅,跳落去下面少少,喺11 月19 日週三,跟住我哋見到你喺 31 11 點54 分就講咗「消防泵被關」。 32 李俊賢先生:係。 33 李澍桓大律師:因為我哋首先知道--因為呢個係你--作者你寫嘅訊息,其餘嗰幾個群組我哋 34 知道都係基本上個訊息一樣嘅。 35 李俊賢先生:係。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第六天

66 本謄本由Epiq 編製 李澍桓大律師:喺你講「消防泵」嘅時候,其實你係講邊個消防泵? 1 李俊賢先生:消防加壓泵。 2 李澍桓大律師:加壓泵? 3 李俊賢先生:係。 4 李澍桓大律師:我哋之前有聽過黃先生嘅證供,可能你都有聽過。 5 李俊賢先生:係。 6 李澍桓大律師:我哋睇過嗰個板面,其實個消防加壓泵喺大嗰個板面上面都有一個開關嘅控 7 制嘅。 8 李俊賢先生:係。 9 李澍桓大律師:所以當你--其實因為你係睇過,你亦都發出呢個訊息,其實你呢度係想嘗試 10 交代係嗰個大嘅板面嘅加壓泵畀人閂咗,定係刀掣畀人閂咗? 11 李俊賢先生:刀掣。 12 李澍桓大律師:係。所以其實呢個訊息就可能唔係話真係完全反映到你想表達嘅嘢,同唔同 13 意? 14 李俊賢先生:同意。 15 李澍桓大律師:因為你好明顯--起碼我見到就你喺11 月19 號就出咗呢一個訊息,以你所 16 記得,喺呢個群組入面,呢個係咪就係成個群組最後一個訊息嚟? 17 李俊賢先生:如果淨係A 座嘅話就係。 18 李澍桓大律師:即係11 點54 分,你發完呢個訊息之後,冇人有回覆過呢個訊息? 19 李俊賢先生:係。 20 李澍桓大律師:不如我哋睇埋B 座,咁同樣地,11 點51 分你發完呢個訊息,以你所記得, 21 B 座呢度有冇其他訊息? 22 李俊賢先生:B 座打後就--之後應該有嘅。 23 李澍桓大律師:係。 24 李俊賢先生:係。 25 李澍桓大律師:C 座同樣地,我哋見到就有一個11 點58 分嘅訊息,跟住就繼續有你--係 26 咪應該你影㗎啲相係? 27 李俊賢先生:係,係,我就上咗去更換嗰隻扲手。 28 李澍桓大律師:可唔可以咁講?即係其實你發完呢個訊息之後,你就其實都係繼續進行你嘅 29 工作? 30 李俊賢先生:工作,係。 31 李澍桓大律師:因為我哋見到似乎你係11 點54 分就發係咪應該最早A 座嗰個訊息? 32 李俊賢先生:最早就應該係B 座先嘅。 33 李澍桓大律師:B 座。 34 李俊賢先生:係。 35 李澍桓大律師:我哋睇番你嗰個訊息,就11 點51 分? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第六天

67 本謄本由Epiq 編製 李俊賢先生:係。 1 李澍桓大律師:跟住你就行去第二座,就然之後睇A 座,A 座又發覺閂埋,就發A 座嘅訊 2 息? 3 李俊賢先生:係。 4 李澍桓大律師:期間你一路有冇人就住你--首先,你點解要將呢個訊息發放喺呢個群組度? 5 李俊賢先生:因為鍾生就之前我發現咗,咁就同鍾生匯報,即係同公司匯報,同張小姐,跟 6 住張小姐就覆番我話鍾生就叫我check 晒咁多座。 7 李澍桓大律師:你第一座去check 發覺個刀掣係閂咗,其實係邊一座? 8 李俊賢先生:B 座。 9 李澍桓大律師:B 座。 10 李俊賢先生:係。 11 李澍桓大律師:咁你B 座發覺有問題,閂咗個刀掣,你其實第一時間做嘅係咩嘢?係出咗訊 12 息定打電話定係點樣? 13 李俊賢先生:即刻打電話返公司。 14 李澍桓大律師:你打畀邊個? 15 李俊賢先生:打畀張小姐。 16 李澍桓大律師:係。打返去係目的係乜? 17 李俊賢先生:話畀佢聽個消防泵總掣畀人閂咗,咁就會冇咗警鐘、扲手都會冇電嘅。 18 李澍桓大律師:係。 19 李俊賢先生:係。 20 李澍桓大律師:咁呢個當然,第一,我哋就知道正正係你需要嘅嘢,因為你要換扲手,嗰個 21 掣要閂咗佢㗎嘛。 22 李俊賢先生:係,係。 23 李澍桓大律師:咁張小姐聽完之有冇回覆你? 24 李俊賢先生:咁我就--佢話會通知鍾生,跟住我就等佢回覆,我先做嘢。 25 李澍桓大律師:咁你等到幾時,有冇回覆,邊一個回覆你? 26 李俊賢先生:跟住到十一點半左右,張小姐就回覆我,就話可--要問下嗰個鄭小姐。 27 李澍桓大律師:鄭小姐。 28 李俊賢先生:謝小姐? 29 李澍桓大律師:係,對你公道,你個口供紙就有講過話去問管理處一位鄭小姐。 30 李俊賢先生:係嘞。 31 李澍桓大律師:係咪? 32 李俊賢先生:係。 33 李澍桓大律師:問啲乜嘢? 34 李俊賢先生:問下佢知唔知咩嘢事閂咗? 35 李澍桓大律師:咁你有冇--即係根據你嘅口供就話知道話掛咗牌,係咪? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第六天

68 本謄本由Epiq 編製 李俊賢先生:係,咁開頭朝頭早就搵唔到佢嘅,因為佢唔喺位,咁就佢晏啲就再覆番我嘅。 1 李澍桓大律師:你講「晏啲」係晏到幾時? 2 李俊賢先生:12 點至到十二點九中間。 3 李澍桓大律師:咁你未搵到鄭小姐之前,同你發現咗個刀掣原來八座都畀人閂咗,中間我哋 4 見到你係似乎有繼續進行個執修嘅工作,係咪? 5 李俊賢先生:係,係。 6 李澍桓大律師:咁呢個係你自己自發地「唔好喺度等,不如我都照做嘢」,定還是係有人畀 7 指示你? 8 李俊賢先生:鍾生--即係公司叫番我,即係張小姐覆番我就話「你繼續喇」,係,跟住我就 9 一路巡落去,一路做執修。 10 李澍桓大律師:係。咁就到到19 號,正如剛才所講,你做到大概兩點半喥,咁你就完咗當 11 日嘅工作。 12 李俊賢先生:係,冇錯。 13 李澍桓大律師:喺你走之前,當然我哋知道就換完其實仲要做測試㗎嘛? 14 李俊賢先生:係。 15 李澍桓大律師:咁就住冇得測試嘅呢個問題,你有冇向任何人攞過指示? 16 李俊賢先生:冇。 17 李澍桓大律師:但係你一般嘅做法係咪換完晒整座大廈之後,其實都應該就要試一試譬如個 18 警鐘響唔響,扲手響唔響? 19 李俊賢先生:係。 20 李澍桓大律師:咁你好明顯當日係我哋知道客觀事實就係冇試過? 21 李俊賢先生:冇錯。 22 李澍桓大律師:咁呢個同你一般嗰個檢查,或者你執修嘅嗰個程序係有唔同,係咪? 23 李俊賢先生:係。 24 李澍桓大律師:咁你有冇向你嘅主管,即係黃先生問過「黃生,點算,我哋點做」? 25 李俊賢先生:因為呢個就之前就交咗畀公司溝通,咁我就做晒、換晒,我有同佢講話「我差 26 唔多時間要做下一單嘞」咁囉。 27 李澍桓大律師:咁我想問就住測試呢個問題,其實有冇人--因為呢個我要搞得好清楚,係你 28 自己覺得「我唔需要做測試」定係有人話畀你知唔需要做測試?你其實做完、換 29 完,我哋似乎都接納,你都接納,一般嚟講係要做測試嘅? 30 李俊賢先生:係。 31 李澍桓大律師:咁當日客觀事實就冇做到測試嘅? 32 李俊賢先生:係。 33 李澍桓大律師:點解你冇做到測試? 34 李俊賢先生:因為台泵開唔到,所以就測試唔到。 35 李澍桓大律師:咁你呢個情況係匯報咗畀公司知㗎嘛? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第六天

69 本謄本由Epiq 編製 李俊賢先生:係。 1 李澍桓大律師:咁你有冇咁問公司「個泵開唔到,我做唔到測試,點算?」有冇咁問? 2 李俊賢先生:冇。 3 李澍桓大律師:即係你自己決定,都知道個泵開唔到㗎嘞? 4 李俊賢先生:係。 5 李澍桓大律師:咁就不如唔好測試嘞? 6 李俊賢先生:咁就我都有同黃生講「咁我做完,換咗㗎嘞」,因為佢--第一日我落去,19 7 號就啲嘢未換晒,係,咁就我就同佢講話「咁我今日就係換住咁多嘅啫。」 8 李澍桓大律師:你講緊... 9 李俊賢先生:個泵又開唔到,所以就... 10 李澍桓大律師:你講緊嘅呢個係邊一座? 11 李俊賢先生:我由一... 12 李澍桓大律師:即係你最先做。 13 李俊賢先生:由A--B 座開始一路換過去H 座嘅,咁H 座就仲𧶄一個扲手同警鐘就未換,要 14 21 號換嘅。 15 李澍桓大律師:係,所以即係當你喺19 號兩點半離開宏福苑嘅時候,其實你基本上由A 座 16 開始做? 17 李俊賢先生:係。 18 李澍桓大律師:就已經做到去H 座㗎嘞? 19 李俊賢先生:係。 20 李澍桓大律師:除咗有一部分H 座未做完? 21 李俊賢先生:係。 22 李澍桓大律師:係咪?即係你係順序A、B、C、D、E、F、G、H 咁做? 23 李俊賢先生:B 座開始。 24 李澍桓大律師:B 座,嗄。 25 李俊賢先生:B 座,跟住A 座因為冇嘢換。 26 李澍桓大律師:係。 27 李俊賢先生:係。 28 李澍桓大律師:咁H 座總之就最褸屘一座處理嘅? 29 李俊賢先生:冇錯。 30 李澍桓大律師:係。咁即係話你做完頭嗰七座,其實都冇辦法做到個測試嘅? 31 李俊賢先生:係。 32 李澍桓大律師:H 座,你走嘅時候係仲有乜嘢未做完? 33 李俊賢先生:仲𧶄一隻扲手同埋一個警鐘。 34 李澍桓大律師:而呢一樣嘢係需要閂咗個主電源嚟去做嘅,係咪? 35 李俊賢先生:係。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第六天

70 本謄本由Epiq 編製 李澍桓大律師:即係話你要--如果咁講,就唔係淨係過夜個囉喎,即係過兩日要21 號你先 1 做到? 2 李俊賢先生:哦,唔使,因為可以--我哋如果正常要做,我哋就唔使--我哋可以開番佢㗎 3 嘛,我走之前開番佢。 4 李澍桓大律師:開番? 5 李俊賢先生:如果我哋正常做換扲手,咁我哋要... 6 李澍桓大律師:閂咗個總掣。 7 李俊賢先生:係,閂咗佢先,如果我哋今日換唔到,咁我哋咪開番個總掣,跟住先走,就唔 8 會... 9 李澍桓大律師:係,咁19 號,11 月19 號兩點半,你離開宏福苑之前,以你自己,唔好講 10 估人哋有冇,你自己有冇去開番個總掣? 11 李俊賢先生:冇。 12 李澍桓大律師:到21 號再去做嘅時候,咁你都係先查下H 座有冇閂到個總電源先? 13 李俊賢先生:係。 14 李澍桓大律師:咁做完,你換咗你要換嘅嘢,離開宏福苑嘅時候,你有冇將H 座嘅總電源開 15 番佢? 16 李俊賢先生:冇。 17 李澍桓大律師:因為我哋--正如所講,我哋有七張嘅WhatsApp 嘅截圖,咁而因為我哋知 18 道係李生你就係其中群組嘅一個成員,鍾生就唔係嘅。 19 李俊賢先生:係。 20 李澍桓大律師:呢啲群組入面嘅訊息嘅紀錄,你仲有冇保存? 21 李俊賢先生:有。 22 李澍桓大律師:有。咁同樣地,你願唔願意--即係因為你都講,其實有啲群組其實之後都仲 23 有一啲訊息嘅。 24 李俊賢先生:係。 25 李澍桓大律師:我相信呢啲訊息就唔牽涉私人嘅事務,都係關於宏福苑工作上嘅嘢,係咪? 26 李俊賢先生:係,冇錯。 27 李澍桓大律師:咁你願唔願意向委員會提供番一個全面嘅呢啲群組訊息嘅紀錄? 28 李俊賢先生:可以。 29 李澍桓大律師:咁或者我呢度我哋之後同代表宏泰消防嘅律師我哋去處理呢一個工作,好唔 30 好? 31 李俊賢先生:好。 32 李澍桓大律師:主席,我冇其他問題。 33 許偉強資深大律師:主席,我淨係得幾個問題,應該十分鐘可以完成。李生,我就想你睇一 34 睇你嘅證人口供1537,呢份就係你向委員會提交嘅證人口供嚟嘅,睇到嘛? 35 李俊賢先生:係。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第六天

71 本謄本由Epiq 編製 許偉強資深大律師:係,咁我想你睇一睇1538 頁,第5 段嗰度,呢度其實我哋都--今日都 1 睇過,有關你喺2025 年11 月19 號喺宏福苑發現到有關呢個消防嗰個加壓泵房 2 嘅總掣被關掉呢一個咁嘅狀況,我亦都有問過鍾先生。我淨係想同你討論下你最後 3 嗰幾句,就係最後嗰四句,你就話「其後,本人向宏福苑管理處鄭小姐查詢,得知 4 宏福苑共八棟大廈因為大維修需要暫停消防系統,並已經向消防處掛牌。」咁就呢 5 度你就寫「(即向消防處傳入消防裝置關閉通知書,下稱『掛牌』)其後,本人完 6 成當日嘅工程之後,就喺當日大概下午兩點半離開宏福苑」。 7 李俊賢先生:係。 8 許偉強資深大律師:呢度我就睇番你呢一份口供,就冇特別話同鄭小姐有去討論過關於呢啲 9 大廈大維修,邊啲消防系統需要暫停呢樣嘢,係咪冇特別同鄭小姐有傾過? 10 李俊賢先生:有。 11 許偉強資深大律師:有傾過,但係只不過你呢度冇特別寫出嚟? 12 李俊賢先生:係。 13 許偉強資深大律師:至於你話喺呢一個同鄭小姐呢個談話入面,你呢一度口供亦冇特別提 14 到,你有冇向佢查詢過關於幾時開始暫停呢個消防系統,我想問下你,事實上你哋 15 嘅溝通入面有冇討論過幾時開始暫停咗呢啲消防系統? 16 李俊賢先生:冇。 17 許偉強資深大律師:第三,我想問下你就係喺你嘅口供亦都冇提到,同鄭小姐有提過大概根 18 據佢嘅認知,幾時可以啟動番呢啲暫停咗嘅消防系統。我想問下你,事實上你哋有 19 冇討論過呢個幾時可能可以啟動到嗰個消防系統嘅問題? 20 李俊賢先生:冇。 21 許偉強資深大律師:另外,喺呢度你嘅口供亦都冇提到你向鄭小姐有詢問過,叫佢提交一啲 22 我哋所知道嘅呢個SDN 嘅。我想問下你事實上其實係咪你同佢喺交談入面,係冇同 23 佢要求攞SDN 嘅? 24 李俊賢先生:冇。 25 許偉強資深大律師:唔該。我想畀你睇一睇有一個通知,如果你睇下B2,B2/1311。我哋 26 睇一睇,呢個就係我哋理解,就係根據消防處佢所發出一啲通告入面,就一啲嘅要 27 求嚟嘅,就係話如果有啲消防裝置可能因為某啲原因係需要暫停嘅話,通常喺個裝 28 置附近就要擺一個咁樣嘅通知喺度嘅,你知唔知有咁嘅情況? 29 李俊賢先生:知道。 30 許偉強資深大律師:你知有咁嘅要求。咁我想問一問,李生,你就住你例如喺11 月19 號同 31 埋11 月21 號,就住呢一個你喺宏福苑當時進行緊呢啲維修嘅工程,你有冇睇到有 32 任何消防裝置嘅附近有掛咗一個咁樣嘅牌喺度? 33 李俊賢先生:唔係好覺。 34 許偉強資深大律師:明白。好,咁我另外最後想問下你嘅,就係由11 月19 號,你同我哋所 35 講話同鄭小姐有過交談,直至到發生火警嗰日,即係11 月26 號呢一個禮拜,係咪 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第六天

72 本謄本由Epiq 編製 都冇再同鄭小姐跟進過你之前19 號查詢嗰啲問題? 1 李俊賢先生:冇。 2 許偉強資深大律師:唔該,我冇其他問題,唔該。 3 陸啟康法官:唔該,孫大律師。 4 孫靖乾資深大律師:係,唔該晒主席、兩位委員。 5 李先生,我只係有一個問題想同你跟進,其他問咗嘅我唔重複。我想都係去睇 6 番你嗰個證人供詞,喺呢個WS2/1538 頁,第5 段嘅最後四行,頭先許大律師都 7 問咗你幾個問題,我唔重複。我只係想問一問你,就剛才你作證嘅時候,你都有講 8 過,你係首先發現B 座嘅時候嗰個刀掣係閂咗,係咪? 9 李俊賢先生:係,係。 10 孫靖乾資深大律師:然後就係你去睇晒其他嗰七座,所以係發現到八座嘅情況都係一樣,就 11 係個刀掣都係閂咗? 12 李俊賢先生:係。 13 孫靖乾資深大律師:咁我就想問一問,你喺你個證人供詞第5 段講到,當日11 月嘅19 14 號,你係向呢一個嘅管理處鄭小姐去查詢嘅時候,你有冇話畀管理處鄭小姐知,其 15 實八座大廈佢哋嗰個刀掣都係閂咗? 16 李俊賢先生:有。 17 孫靖乾資深大律師:咁你有冇話畀佢知個刀掣閂咗,係會令到嗰個FAS,即係話警鐘系統都 18 唔會響? 19 李俊賢先生:呢個唔係好記得。 20 孫靖乾資深大律師:咁你話咗畀鄭小姐知個刀掣閂咗之後,鄭小姐有冇啲乜嘢嘅回應? 21 李俊賢先生:佢話佢知道嘅,跟住佢哋大維修閂咗。 22 孫靖乾資深大律師:即係佢知道個刀掣閂咗? 23 李俊賢先生:係。 24 孫靖乾資深大律師:好。主席,咁我冇其他問題,唔該。 25 陸啟康法官:林大律師,唔該。 26 林樂夫大律師:主席,冇覆問,唔該。 27 陸啟康法官:等我一陣吓。咁我哋而家應該係一個適當嘅時候休息。 28 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,我諗如果呢位證人完畢之後,會去到ISS 嘅證人,所以呢個係一個 29 好嘅時候。 30 陸啟康法官:Okay,唔該,李生,你作供完畢㗎嘞。 31 李俊賢先生:好,唔該。 32

33 15 時17 分宏泰消防工程有限公司電工證人李俊賢先生作供完畢 34

35 陸啟康法官:我哋而家休息十分鐘。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第六天

73 本謄本由Epiq 編製

1 15 時17 分聆訊押後 2 15 時27 分聆訊恢復 3

4 15 時28 分置邦興業有限公司文員證人駱倩盈女士開始作供 5

6 陸啟康法官:係,杜大律師。 7 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,主席--兩位委員,下一位證人係駱倩盈女士。駱小姐,你好,你面 8 前應該有一份聲明,麻煩你企起身讀出嚟。 9 駱倩盈女士:本人駱倩盈聲明,本人所作的證供,盡本人所知、所悉及所信,均屬真實。 10 杜淦堃資深大律師:請坐。駱小姐,你現時應該受僱於置邦興業,係任職文員,係咪? 11 駱倩盈女士:係。 12 杜淦堃資深大律師:喺大火之前你係喺宏福苑管理處工作嘅? 13 駱倩盈女士:係。 14 杜淦堃資深大律師:你提供咗兩份證供嘅,第一份係提供畀委員會嘅證人供詞,我相信你睇 15 過。 16 駱倩盈女士:係。 17 杜淦堃資深大律師:而你亦都落咗份口供畀警方嘅? 18 駱倩盈女士:係。 19 杜淦堃資深大律師:我都相信你有機會睇過呢兩份文件,亦都可以確認佢哋嘅內容係準確 20 嘅,係咪? 21 駱倩盈女士:係。 22 杜淦堃資深大律師:多謝你。我知道你其實大火當日,喺宏福苑都工作咗一段長嘅時間,所 23 以對於講番當日嘅事,對你嚟講可能都係一啲困難嘅事嚟嘅。 24 駱倩盈女士:唔。 25 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係--所以我哋都多謝你嚟協助委員會,希望你明白我哋嘅職責係從你 26 嘅證據裏面去搵番當日所發生嘅事情同埋大火之前一啲嘅做法。 27 駱倩盈女士:明白。 28 杜淦堃資深大律師:麻煩你儘量協助我哋。 29 駱倩盈女士:好。 30 杜淦堃資深大律師:根據你證人供詞第7 段所講,主席,呢個喺WS2/1222 頁。你係2007 31 年初次加入ISS,你加入嘅時候已經喺宏福苑工作,係咪? 32 駱倩盈女士:係。 33 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁你喺2019 年離開,但係喺之後嗰年就加入番ISS 嘅? 34 駱倩盈女士:係。 35 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁據你所講,你24 年嘅8 月,又--六個月之後你又離職,24 年8 月 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第六天

74 本謄本由Epiq 編製 亦都再次加入嘅? 1 駱倩盈女士:係。 2 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想你確認一下,其實一路都係喺宏福苑做嘅,喺ISS 嘅時候,係咪? 3 駱倩盈女士:冇錯。 4 杜淦堃資深大律師:所以其實你前前後後喺宏福苑做咗十幾年? 5 駱倩盈女士:係。 6 杜淦堃資深大律師:對於喺宏福苑工作嘅時候,你其實係咪大部分時間都係喺管理處嗰度? 7 定係... 8 駱倩盈女士:如果喺行政工作上面,係。但係我嘅工作會成個屋苑周圍走。 9 杜淦堃資深大律師:所以其實對於屋苑好多居民,或者對於屋苑裏面所發生嘅事情,對於屋 10 苑裏面嘅設施,其實你有十幾年嘅時間,你其實應該都係相當熟悉,可唔可以咁 11 講? 12 駱倩盈女士:某啲,唔可以話全部熟悉。 13 杜淦堃資深大律師:當然。 14 駱倩盈女士:即係我職責會去到嗰個位置嘅,我就會好熟悉。 15 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁你可唔可以即係等我哋有個好啲嘅概念,你呢十幾年裏面嘅職責有冇 16 變過,或者你可唔可以介紹一下,你邊段時間係做啲乜嘢? 17 駱倩盈女士:有嘅,咁最初就07 年就係物業助理,咁當時就主要--我可以話好雜項嘅工 18 作,可能舉辦一啲活動、興趣班、出通告、樂陶園、單車位、投訴,有時協助收管 19 理費。因為當時亦都有保安藍卡,如果喺保安員唔夠人嘅時候,有機會去頂座頭, 20 係,好雜項嘅嘢。 21 杜淦堃資深大律師:07 年開始一路都係? 22 駱倩盈女士:係,去到第二次,20 年再加入,其實都係差唔多。跟住去到24 年8 月,即係 23 呢次,咁係做一個文員嘅職位,咁就有別於我之前兩次入職嘅。我係咪需要再講今 24 次入職?Okay,咁今次入職主要係協助居民就大維修,去幫助佢哋申請一啲資助, 25 填寫表格,幫佢哋對下有啲咩嘢文件係需要遞交。即係簡單,屋宇署嘅樓宇嗰個叫 26 2.0,係4 萬、5 萬、8 萬或者屋宇署貸款嘅嘢,因為個名太長,我唔記得而家。 27 咁另外就係亦都會處理一啲居民就大維修衍生出嚟嘅投訴,亦都由24 年9 月6 號 28 轉咗法團之後,我亦都會參與埋涉及大維修工程嘅會議,另外仲會負責去出信追收 29 大維修集資嘅逾期費用。 30 杜淦堃資深大律師:你都講得好全面,我哋或者螢光幕都睇一睇第8 段,其實你喺第8 段都 31 有一啲嘅解釋嘅,咁頭先你講得比較--正如我啱啱所講,比你嘅第8 段講得更加全 32 面。我哋見到(a),申請嗰個樓宇更新大行動2.0,呢個係同市建局嗰個,咁你 33 亦都講咗喺翻新大維修裏面相關嘅投訴。跟住(c)我哋見到你亦都講咗話撰寫一啲 34 會議紀錄。(d )嗰度就有一項特別嘅工作,就係個Job Order ,呢個Job 35 Order 我陣間再問一問你呢方面嘅問題。為咗讓我哋更加清楚當時嘅管理架構,如 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第六天

75 本謄本由Epiq 編製 果我可以勞煩同事將Bundle H1/第54 頁嗰個管理架構表投射上螢光幕。我哋見 1 到呢個管理架構表,呢個就係喺大火前嘅隊伍,喺管理處底下,我哋見到有1 名助 2 理屋苑嘅主任,呢度寫住「空缺」,物業助理、文員同埋維修文員。喺呢度就係-- 3 你嘅職責就係維修文員。 4 駱倩盈女士:冇「維修」兩個字。 5 杜淦堃資深大律師:係咪?即係所以其實你--我想--你今日之前有冇見過呢個表? 6 駱倩盈女士:呢個表冇,第一次見。 7 杜淦堃資深大律師:第一次見,okay,冇問題,呢個當然係你嘅僱主提供。 8 駱倩盈女士:唔。 9 杜淦堃資深大律師:你頭先提到你嘅職責嘅時候,你有講過,其中你有一個職責係處理或者 10 記錄居民嘅投訴嘅? 11 駱倩盈女士:係。 12 杜淦堃資深大律師:你最後一次加入ISS 時候,當然就係主要處理大維修相關嘅事情? 13 駱倩盈女士:係。 14 杜淦堃資深大律師:所以你指嘅可能係大維修相關嘅投訴,係咪? 15 駱倩盈女士:冇錯。 16 杜淦堃資深大律師:就呢啲投訴而言,居民我相信有時係會用電話投訴,係咪? 17 駱倩盈女士:唔。 18 杜淦堃資深大律師:佢哋會--有時我相信會面對面佢會走落嚟同你講,係咪? 19 駱倩盈女士:係。 20 杜淦堃資深大律師:其實好多街坊都識你嘅應該,係咪? 21 駱倩盈女士:唔。 22 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁而呢啲投訴,你哋會當然有個文件記錄低,係咪? 23 駱倩盈女士:係。 24 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想問下,除咗電話同埋面對面之外,佢哋有冇第二啲方法記錄佢哋嘅 25 投訴?有冇啲譬如--會唔會用email 或者用WhatsApp? 26 駱倩盈女士:有email,WhatsApp 本身管理處係冇嘅。 27 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係有時都會--管理處有管理處嘅email,所以居民就會send 嚟管 28 理處畀你? 29 駱倩盈女士:係,係。 30 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋或者可以參考,即係為咗幫助你記得番當時嘅情況,Bundle C1- 31 1/749 頁開始。我相信你見過呢份文件,係咪? 32 駱倩盈女士:係。 33 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢個係我--個題目睇到「大維修投訴紀錄」。啱? 34 駱倩盈女士:係。 35 杜淦堃資深大律師:裏面一啲嘅內容係--相信係你去輸入,係咪? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第六天

76 本謄本由Epiq 編製 駱倩盈女士:冇錯。 1 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋見到,裏面有各種各樣嘅投訴,譬如除咗我哋見到佢有啲關於食煙 2 嘅投訴,但係舉幾個例子,譬如第4 項咁我哋見到佢哋有時會講係話,試過係搬運 3 物料時候有巨響? 4 駱倩盈女士:係。 5 杜淦堃資深大律師:如果我哋睇第--落去--一路落去睇第20 項,你會見到佢哋有投訴過啲 6 棚架嘅射燈太光、太猛烈? 7 駱倩盈女士:唔。 8 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢啲全部都係應該係你去處理,係咪?當時,你係咪唯一一個處理呢啲 9 投訴? 10 駱倩盈女士:我唔係唯一一個去處理呢個,但係呢個表係我--得我去輸入電腦。 11 杜淦堃資深大律師:而我相信你收過嘅所有投訴,你都會輸入嘅,係咪? 12 駱倩盈女士:唔可以咁講。 13 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔。 14 駱倩盈女士:只要有落嗰本大維修投訴紀錄簿嘅,我先會輸入呢個表格度。 15 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係有另外一本簿? 16 駱倩盈女士:嗰本簿係一本藍色嘅簿,因為係廿四小時擺喺控制室入面,因為投訴唔一定搵 17 我嘅,任何一個同事都可以接到投訴,接咗投訴就要寫落嗰本簿度,咁我就會不定 18 時將簿入面嘅文字輸入落電腦。 19 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白。咁你個人收到嘅任何投訴,無論係口頭,或者email,你係咪都 20 會全部喺嗰本簿度記錄低? 21 駱倩盈女士:係。 22 杜淦堃資深大律師:根據我哋而家收到嘅文件同證人嘅口供,我哋見到居民其實對今次大維 23 修施工嘅物料,相信你都知道,棚網、發泡膠,佢哋係有憂慮同有投訴過,係咪? 24 駱倩盈女士:唔,有。 25 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋喺呢度就見唔到投訴得好密,或者有好多嘅投訴,但係我哋喺第二 26 啲文件度都見到相關嘅投訴,例如畀你睇另一份文件,Bundle H1-3/6116 頁, 27 呢度係有一份係2025 年9 月27 日,係維修工程嘅進度會議。你呢份文件睇到管 28 理處就似乎派咗你同埋黎經理去開呢個會。 29 駱倩盈女士:冇錯。 30 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,「駱小姐」就係你。我哋睇到第三段「法團」--佢係咁寫嘅,「法 31 團查詢會否全面更換棚網,宏業回覆只會更換已損毀及已失去保護性棚網」,你見 32 到呢個? 33 駱倩盈女士:係。 34 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢個文件係咪你準備? 35 駱倩盈女士:係。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第六天

77 本謄本由Epiq 編製 杜淦堃資深大律師:我相信呢一項係因為--正如第二項嗰度所講,因為颱風嘅關係所衍生嘅 1 問題,係咪? 2 駱倩盈女士:唔,係。 3 杜淦堃資深大律師:如果我哋睇落去第11 段,你見到法團要求,你會見到最後嗰項亦都提 4 出過一啲鴻毅,「要求鴻毅檢查棚網並出信,說明棚網是否安全。鴻毅表示下星期 5 會先安排檢查B、C、E 座」,你記得呢個要求同埋你嘅紀錄,係咪? 6 駱倩盈女士:唔,係。 7 杜淦堃資深大律師:好,呢個就係棚網嘅一啲資料,因為有好多,我都唔花時間逐份畀你 8 睇,呢個只係幫助你去記得番當時嘅情況。另外一方面就係發泡膠嘅問題,如果我 9 哋睇6014 頁,有一個叫做「五方會議紀錄」,你見到嘛? 10 駱倩盈女士:見到。 11 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋都見到你個名,喺而家嗰個... 12 駱倩盈女士:係。 13 杜淦堃資深大律師:...顯示嗰度,呢份係咪都係你準備嘅文件? 14 駱倩盈女士:係。 15 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋見到呢個係2025 年9 月12 日嘅會議--2024 年。你如果睇第 16 19 段,呢度有提到話管理委員會表示就收到有啲住戶,呢個係燃燒保護窗口嘅玻璃 17 所用嘅發泡膠嘅影片,佢哋向宏業查詢,咁宏業亦都解釋佢哋係唔會畀煙頭燒著, 18 但係用明火持續燃燒就另作別論。佢哋跟住就講「法例沒有訂明不能使用相關物 19 料」,咁一路都講呢個問題,亦都之後亦都講到譬如棚架上嘅剩餘物料、垃圾,而 20 繼續都講咗一啲安全嘅問題,你都記得呢啲嘅投訴同埋你作嘅紀錄,係咪? 21 駱倩盈女士:係。 22 杜淦堃資深大律師:而我相信發泡膠同埋棚網嘅投訴,其實如果睇番現有嘅紀錄,呢兩個係 23 投訴得幾密嘅事情嚟嘅,都係普遍嘅事情,係咪? 24 駱倩盈女士:唔。或者咁講,係有咁嘅投訴,但係喺我自己印象中,多數接到呢類嘅投訴反 25 映,通常就係喺一啲工程交流會或者工程會上面,啲街坊即時向現場即係宏業、鴻 26 毅或者法團佢哋即時提出嚟嘅。咁喺呢個交流會或者工程會上面提出出嚟嘅所謂嘅 27 投訴反映,我就唔會落落嗰個大維修投訴紀錄簿。 28 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白。所以唔同嘅文件因為有唔同嘅做法,而我想--頭先可能想問清楚 29 啲嘅,就係雖然個工程紀錄簿嗰度唔係見到好多,即係之前嗰份文件,我哋知道你 30 準備嗰份大維修投訴紀錄,喺嗰度雖然見唔到好多關於棚網同發泡膠嘅投訴,但係 31 喺一啲工程嘅會議,其實係有好多呢啲投訴? 32 駱倩盈女士:多嘅。 33 杜淦堃資深大律師:例如我啱啱畀你睇呢兩個例子都係反映到,呢個講法啱? 34 駱倩盈女士:係,啱。 35 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔該晒你。我想你幫一幫我另外一個範疇,如果管理處發現維修嘅工程 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第六天

78 本謄本由Epiq 編製 上高,有一啲安全嘅風險或者有啲火災嘅風險,你嘅理解係你收到呢啲投訴之後, 1 你會點做,你會點去跟進?公司有冇畀啲咩嘢指引你? 2 駱倩盈女士:公司會有指引嘅,但係我冇去好細心咁睇公司嘅任何指引。 3 杜淦堃資深大律師:嗰啲指引應該會幫到你嘅工作嘅,但係你當時冇好細心咁去睇? 4 駱倩盈女士:冇。 5 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白。頭先我哋睇你嘅證人供詞裏面,你提到另外一份文件嘅,你提到 6 有啲維修工作單,即係叫job order。 7 駱倩盈女士:係。 8 杜淦堃資深大律師:發出呢個工作單其實係為咗指示你哋公司另外一啲嘅同事去處理嗰啲工 9 作嘅? 10 駱倩盈女士:冇錯。 11 杜淦堃資深大律師:你有時都會出呢啲工作單? 12 駱倩盈女士:係。 13 杜淦堃資深大律師:雖然唔係淨係得你一個出,但係你有份出,係咪? 14 駱倩盈女士:冇錯。 15 杜淦堃資深大律師:相信呢啲工作單係有人叫你出,唔係你自己決定去做,係咪? 16 駱倩盈女士:視乎嗰樣係咩嘢喎。 17 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係有時有人同你講有啲嘢需要做,你就可以有權去出嗰啲工作單,係 18 啲同事去處理嘅,係咪? 19 駱倩盈女士:係,冇錯。 20 杜淦堃資深大律師:睇番你嘅證人供詞WS2/1226 頁14(b),呢個係講緊工作單嘅情 21 況,而家你哋提供咗三張有關嘅工作單副本,當中有兩張就係由黃百盛先生發出 22 嘅,有一張係你發出嘅。當時有嘅梗係唔止呢三張,係咪? 23 駱倩盈女士:唔肯定。 24 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係你哋搵到嘅就係得呢三張,喺宏福苑? 25 駱倩盈女士:呢三張工作單係警方搵到出嚟畀我哋嘅。 26 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係就你嘅記憶,應該你唔止淨係處理過一張工作單,係咪? 27 駱倩盈女士:唔止。 28 杜淦堃資深大律師:係嘞,而就你返到去,即係你最屘嗰幾個月喺宏福苑,你處理過嘅工作 29 單應該都係唔止呢三張,係咪?或者你見過嘅工作單。我想攞個概念啫。 30 駱倩盈女士:唔多囉,即係我唔理嗰張工作單嘅內容係乜嘢先首先,我發--今次再入則嘅, 31 由我發出嘅工作單可能得幾張,係嘞,咁樣。 32 杜淦堃資深大律師:總之就應該唔止呢三張,當時你返到去之後嘅工作單,係咪? 33 駱倩盈女士:係,呢三張其中一張係我發出嘅。 34 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白。我哋去睇一睇嗰啲工作單,文件夾C1-2/1265 頁,我哋見到右 35 上角寫得好清楚「宏福苑工作單」,你見到呢個係一個指定格式? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第六天

79 本謄本由Epiq 編製 駱倩盈女士:係。 1 杜淦堃資深大律師:上高手寫就係視乎張工作單邊個出? 2 駱倩盈女士:唔。 3 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋見到1267 譬如,呢個係你發出嘅維修工作單,係咪? 4 駱倩盈女士:冇錯。 5 杜淦堃資深大律師:而我哋見到工作單嘅內容,因為你嘅字,麻煩你讀出嚟。 6 駱倩盈女士:「宏道消防缸防水,14-7-2025,星期一,上午九點半在宏道地下大堂等宏 7 業職員」。 8 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢個內容,我哋見到下低就有一項係「工作完成」,有就係Yes,上述 9 工作完成;No 就係有啲(English Spoken)佢寫「見備註」嘅。我哋睇番呢張 10 工作單就剔咗完成嘅,呢個都係你剔嘅,係咪? 11 駱倩盈女士:唔係。 12 杜淦堃資深大律師:邊個剔㗎? 13 駱倩盈女士:應該係兩位師傅。 14 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係處理工作單嘅同事去剔? 15 駱倩盈女士:冇錯。 16 杜淦堃資深大律師:係唔係就係下低(English Spoken)完工者嗰兩位? 17 駱倩盈女士:應該係。 18 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁我想問下你嘅,就係除咗我哋見到有完工嘅日期、時間,我哋睇呢張 19 工作單,我哋應該點樣去理解,呢張工作單應該只係你哋ISS 嘅工作完成,即係協 20 助放水完成定係宏業嗰個維修消防水缸嗰個工作完成? 21 駱倩盈女士:呢張單唔關宏業事嘅。 22 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢張單關邊個事? 23 駱倩盈女士:置邦喺宏福苑嘅工程部。 24 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係換句話講,呢張單所指示嘅就係你哋工程部嘅同事佢哋要去做一啲 25 事項,喺呢度就係「地下大堂等宏業職員」,其實佢哋嘅工作就只係幫助將消防水 26 缸放水,係咪? 27 駱倩盈女士:冇錯。 28 杜淦堃資深大律師:你話唔關宏業事,就係呢張單要處理嗰個內容有冇做完呢樣嘢,其實就 29 只係去睇你哋嘅同事有冇做完佢哋被指派去做嘅工作? 30 駱倩盈女士:冇錯。 31 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔該你。好,我哋睇番同一個資料夾1255 頁,呢一份係你畀警方嘅口 32 供,如果睇番前,或者等你清楚知道我哋睇緊乜嘢。你睇番前幾頁,我哋如果去番 33 呢份口供第1 頁你見到,呢份係你畀警務處嘅口供,你嚟畀證供之前,我相信你睇 34 過。 35 駱倩盈女士:唔。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第六天

80 本謄本由Epiq 編製 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想你去睇第4 至第8 個問題同答案,你望一望,好快咁。 1 駱倩盈女士:Okay。 2 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想你幫一幫我哋嘅就係第8 項,其實一個比較簡單嘅問題想澄清番。 3 你見到第8 條問題,附件1 編號2 上,「點解會寫宏道閣係2025 年7 月15 日開 4 始進行工程呢?」你就話「我唔清楚,宏業張生通知我嗰日,當日唔會拎埋通告過 5 嚟,我哋管理處唔會檢查佢哋嘅日子,就好似附件2 編號3,宏業嘅人係7 月8 號 6 打嚟,佢哋話要7 月14 號放水,好多時係14 號前幾日先至拎呢張附件1 編號2 7 嘅通告去管理處蓋章,而我哋管理處係唔會睇番維修單同通告日子啱唔啱。」你睇 8 到呢度嘅問題同答案? 9 駱倩盈女士:唔,睇到。 10 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢度講嗰個通告,我哋去1258 頁,呢個係你所指嘅通告? 11 駱倩盈女士:係。 12 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋見到呢度其實警察問你係通告講緊7 月15 日開始呢個消防水缸工 13 程,同附件2 編號3 嗰個工作單嗰度寫咗7 月14 日有少少出入嘅。 14 駱倩盈女士:係。 15 杜淦堃資深大律師:所以你嗰個第8 號答案,你頭先就咁講,其實你哋係唔會睇番通告單嗰 16 個日子啱唔啱,係咪? 17 駱倩盈女士:係。 18 杜淦堃資深大律師:我咁講啱唔啱?管理處其實就唔會睇下,實際去研究下宏業係邊日開 19 工,而佢哋亦都唔會去跟進宏業係有冇喺通告裏面。你見到呢個通告寫7 月15 號 20 至9 月15 號,係咪? 21 駱倩盈女士:係。 22 杜淦堃資深大律師:管理處嘅職責就唔包括去睇下佢哋係咪真係如期完工嘅,係咪? 23 駱倩盈女士:呢個問題我代表唔到成個管理處答,我只可以代表自己答。 24 杜淦堃資深大律師:你唔理先? 25 駱倩盈女士:我唔會。 26 杜淦堃資深大律師:至於有冇同事去跟進,呢個就你唔清楚,係咪? 27 駱倩盈女士:冇錯。 28 杜淦堃資深大律師:好,另外一個範疇想你幫一幫手嘅,如果管理處發現防火設施係損壞或 29 者有其他嘅問題,你公司有冇指引係點樣去跟住嘅? 30 駱倩盈女士:唔清楚。 31 杜淦堃資深大律師:你有冇見過任何嘅指引,定係可能有指引,不過你冇睇過,好似頭先咁 32 講? 33 駱倩盈女士:係。 34 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋用番頭先嗰個例子,我相信你都唔會去留意,如果譬如頭先做嗰啲 35 水缸工程,有冇一個我哋過去嗰幾日提到嘅(English Spoken),呢個唔係你 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第六天

81 本謄本由Epiq 編製 關心嘅範疇,係咪? 1 駱倩盈女士:冇錯。 2 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁至於頭先嗰個job order 裏面,宏業話要你哋幫手,因為有工程要 3 做,叫你啲師傅防水,點解要防水同埋有冇實際需要都唔係你考慮,佢叫你,你就 4 去做,係咪? 5 駱倩盈女士:因為我喺工程會知道佢哋消防水缸係需要做一個工程,係必須放晒入面嘅水, 6 所以宏業提出話想我安排兩個師傅幫手放水,我冇去特登問佢點解要我哋師傅放水 7 或者要佢哋做啲咩嘢,我冇問過佢。 8 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係換句話講,你知道有個工程關於嗰個消防缸? 9 駱倩盈女士:係。 10 杜淦堃資深大律師:所以佢哋叫你放水,你就叫師傅去放,可唔可以咁講? 11 駱倩盈女士:應該係咁講,其實佢係問兩位師傅可唔可以幫幫手,但係實際所謂幫幫手,其 12 實係做啲咩嘢我冇考究過,亦都冇問過。 13 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白。總之你覺得聽落去似乎要求合理,你就叫你師傅去做,可唔可以 14 咁講? 15 駱倩盈女士:唔可以咁講,因為佢唔係我做,我唔會評論呢樣嘢合唔合理,我只會收到佢嘅 16 要求,我咪問師傅,咁師傅話okay 咪okay,唔okay 嘅就唔okay。 17 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白。即係唔係去考慮有冇需要做呢啲,唔係你嘅職責範圍? 18 駱倩盈女士:係。 19 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋睇番資料夾C1-2/1267 頁,睇番嗰張水缸放水嘅工作單,我哋了 20 解應該係有八張呢啲嘅工作單,每座應該都有一張嘅,你知唔知? 21 駱倩盈女士:正常係。 22 杜淦堃資深大律師:但你就唔清楚? 23 駱倩盈女士:唔肯定。 24 杜淦堃資深大律師:點解你話正常係? 25 駱倩盈女士:你正常一座咪開一張order? 26 杜淦堃資深大律師:而你嘅理解係八座都要做,所以應該有八張? 27 駱倩盈女士:係。 28 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白。接住落嚟相關同呢個job order 有關嘅事情,我想你睇一睇番 29 你嘅證人供詞第 20 段--sorry ,唔好意思,我畀錯咗個(English 30 Spoken ),應該你去睇一睇李承富先生嘅證人供詞,喺bundle WS2/1256 31 頁。我想你睇一睇,你有冇睇過呢份供詞之前? 32 駱倩盈女士:冇。 33 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想你用心咁睇一睇第20 段。 34 駱倩盈女士:睇完。 35 杜淦堃資深大律師:你識李先生,係咪? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第六天

82 本謄本由Epiq 編製 駱倩盈女士:係。 1 杜淦堃資深大律師:佢係木工? 2 駱倩盈女士:我所知係技工啫。 3 杜淦堃資深大律師:佢喺呢度就話佢當時理解操作消防裝置係要通知消防處,佢就話「因 4 此,執行消防水缸放水工作時,佢都同羅先生提出處理消防水缸係需要消防牌照先 5 可以操作,羅先生就回應,接到工作單就要根據執行。」李先生就係一個技工,羅 6 先生你嘅理解係? 7 駱倩盈女士:電工。 8 杜淦堃資深大律師:電工。我想問你嘅係李先生或者羅先生就20 段呢一個問題有冇問過 9 你? 10 駱倩盈女士:冇印象佢哋提出過。 11 杜淦堃資深大律師:就呢段--就呢個問題,我相信你嚟畀證供之前,你會探討過、你會考慮 12 過,係咪? 13 駱倩盈女士:係。 14 杜淦堃資深大律師:我亦都相信有人問過你記唔記得佢哋咁講過,係咪? 15 駱倩盈女士:有。 16 杜淦堃資深大律師:因為我想你幫我嘅係,如果你睇羅先生嘅證供WS2 第1233 頁,我想你 17 幫一幫我哋去睇第19 段,如果你唔介意,不如你幫我哋讀19 段出嚟。 18 駱倩盈女士:可以。 19 杜淦堃資深大律師:慢慢。 20 駱倩盈女士:「在收到上述工作單的時候,警員從管理處的同事理解到消防水缸放水是大維 21 修工作的一部分。另外,我理解通常操作消防裝置是需要通知消防處的,因此在收 22 到第一份就消防水缸放水的工作單時,我也向管理處的同事駱倩盈小姐提出,處理 23 消防水缸是需要有消防牌照才能操作,駱倩盈小姐向我指出,由於我是電工,而這 24 是宏業的要求,因此我需要陪同宏業的工作人員以協助宏業將消防水缸放水」。 25 杜淦堃資深大律師:好,我想你幫一幫我哋嘅就係,因為而家羅先生有一個好清晰嘅講法, 26 就係處理呢啲消防水缸嘅事情要有牌先至去做嘅,你明白嘛? 27 駱倩盈女士:明白。 28 杜淦堃資深大律師:而因為佢呢個理解呢,佢係去問過你關於呢個事情。而佢嘅記憶就係你 29 同佢講「宏業需要做就叫佢去做」,你係咪話畀我哋知佢冇可能咁樣問過你,定係 30 佢有可能咁樣問過你,不過你完全冇印象? 31 駱倩盈女士:其實我都幾肯定我冇收過呢樣內容囉。 32 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係你肯定羅先生係冇咁問過你嘅? 33 駱倩盈女士:係。 34 杜淦堃資深大律師:好,羅先生稍候會作證,羅先生係你嘅同事,換句話講,你同你嘅同事 35 就咁呢一個獨特嘅事情有完全不同嘅記憶? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第六天

83 本謄本由Epiq 編製 駱倩盈女士:同意。 1 杜淦堃資深大律師:而我想--即係你唔好介意我咁問一問,聽你頭先嘅答案,你係有好清晰 2 嘅印象,就唔係佢有可能問過你,不過你唔記得,你而家好清晰咁話畀委員會聽, 3 喺你嘅認知裏面,佢係冇可能咁問過你,係咪咁呀? 4 駱倩盈女士:冇錯。 5 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁你覺得羅先生點解要咁講? 6 駱倩盈女士:唔清楚。 7 杜淦堃資深大律師:你而家嘅講法呢,如果我睇番你嘅證人供詞第17 段。 8 駱倩盈女士:呢份唔係我。 9 杜淦堃資深大律師:你嘅講法同你證人供詞嘅第17 段,即係對你公道啲,係一致嘅,因為 10 你話你冇相關嘅消防知識,所以其實呢啲嘢都唔應該問你,係咪? 11 駱倩盈女士:係。 12 杜淦堃資深大律師:你係一個文職人員嚟嘅只係? 13 駱倩盈女士:冇錯。 14 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁你覺得羅先生如果要問,佢應該問邊個? 15 駱倩盈女士:我覺得佢應該係問我嘅上司。 16 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係邊位? 17 駱倩盈女士:黎經理又或者問宏業。 18 杜淦堃資深大律師:對於呢一個講法... 19 駱倩盈女士:等等,仲有佢哋工程部嘅上司林生。 20 杜淦堃資深大律師:羅先生基本上而家嘅講法,如果講得籠統啲,就係佢問過你,講得簡單 21 少少或者白少少,就係你叫佢做,佢就要做,呢個講法你係完全唔認同,係咪? 22 駱倩盈女士:冇錯。 23 杜淦堃資深大律師:大火之前,你知唔知道呢一點呢,其實佢哋係唔應該去處理嗰啲消防裝 24 置嘅,因為佢哋唔係註冊嘅承辦商,你知唔知呢樣嘢? 25 駱倩盈女士:我會有概念,呢一part 消防系統係應該由註冊承辦商去做。 26 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係你知? 27 駱倩盈女士:係。 28 杜淦堃資深大律師:如果嗰兩位師傅,即係羅生或者李生問你,你應該係會請示你嘅上司, 29 係咪? 30 駱倩盈女士:冇錯。 31 杜淦堃資深大律師:想你幫一幫我哋去探討另外一方面嘅問題,我哋知道發出咗呢一張工作 32 單之後呢,宏業係將嗰個消防栓同喉轆系統關閉超過四個月,當時你知唔知? 33 駱倩盈女士:知。 34 杜淦堃資深大律師:就呢個事情,我想你睇番你證人供詞第15 同埋第16 段,不如畀啲時間 35 你睇一睇。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第六天

84 本謄本由Epiq 編製 駱倩盈女士:可以。 1 杜淦堃資深大律師:你話你其後睇到中華發展發出嗰個我哋知道叫做「消防裝置關閉通知 2 書」,即係我哋講緊嘅(English Spoken),係咪? 3 駱倩盈女士:係。 4 杜淦堃資深大律師:你喺今次火警發生之前,你熟唔熟悉呢個文件? 5 駱倩盈女士:唔熟悉。 6 杜淦堃資深大律師:你最早幾時知道有人提交咗一個(English Spoken)? 7 駱倩盈女士:呢一刻我答你唔到,我要睇番WhatsApp 嘅對話紀錄。 8 杜淦堃資深大律師:管理處如果有呢啲(English Spoken),管理處應該會知,係咪? 9 駱倩盈女士:我有(English Spoken),但係代唔代每個同事知,我就唔肯定。 10 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁如果有(English Spoken),當然你話你負責存檔做(English 11 Spoken),咁你會唔會留意裏面嘅內容呢? 12 駱倩盈女士:我會睇日期。 13 杜淦堃資深大律師:睇完日期你會唔會有啲咩嘢跟進? 14 駱倩盈女士:如果佢就嚟到期或者已經過咗期,宏業有要提供新嘅日期嘅,我會追佢。 15 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢個係你責任,係咪? 16 駱倩盈女士:冇人講過係我嘅責任,但係因為我知道有份咁嘅文件,而亦知道消防水缸係維 17 修緊,所以你當我多事,冇任何人叫我跟進呢樣嘢,但係我會留意日期上面嘅呢樣 18 嘢。 19 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁你有冇留意到係停用咩嘢裝置?如果你收嘅時候。 20 駱倩盈女士:水,消防水。 21 杜淦堃資深大律師:你知嘅當時? 22 駱倩盈女士:知道。 23 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁你知唔知會影響消防鐘? 24 駱倩盈女士:唔知道。 25 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想問你,你同你嘅同事之間有冇討論過長期停用呢個消防裝置可能會 26 產生嘅問題? 27 駱倩盈女士:冇。 28 杜淦堃資深大律師:如果管理處同事冇討論過,或者即係當然你哋只係留意嗰個(English 29 Spoken )有冇過期,管理處應該都係冇一個意識話要叫宏業做快啲,等 30 (English Spoken)個時間唔好咁長? 31 駱倩盈女士:冇。 32 杜淦堃資深大律師:據你了解,呢啲係邊個處理嘅問題應該? 33 駱倩盈女士:喺我個人嘅了解,係因為鴻毅係監督,宏業去做工程,而宏業本身亦都有安全 34 主任,我出於相信佢哋嘅專業,所以我個人係唔會去質疑佢哋呢一方面嘅嘢。 35 杜淦堃資深大律師:至於公司ISS 有冇要求管理處去考慮或者處理呢啲事情,喺佢哋畀你嘅 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第六天

85 本謄本由Epiq 編製 指引裏面,有冇啲咁嘅指引你係唔知嘅,因為你冇...(聽不清) 1 駱倩盈女士:我真係冇好細心去睇,我唔排除有,亦都唔肯定有冇。 2 杜淦堃資深大律師:你知道因為水缸維修嘅問題喺大廈嗰度係加咗滅火筒,呢個你知嘅,係 3 咪? 4 駱倩盈女士:知道。 5 杜淦堃資深大律師:至於呢個做法係唔係足夠去處理有關嘅風險,聽你咁講,都唔係你哋會 6 考慮嘅範圍,係咪? 7 駱倩盈女士:只有信宏業同鴻毅喺開會嘅時候話因為冇水,所以按消防法例需要係每隔一層 8 放一個滅火筒,咁我就冇質疑佢哋呢個安排。 9 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想你幫一幫我另一個範疇,就係你哋有冇收過保安員、住戶或者任何 10 嘅人士,對於停用個消防系統咁耐感覺到擔憂? 11 駱倩盈女士:只有一位我有印象,幾肯定嘅,係住宏泰閣3 樓嘅一位先生,佢就係話佢知道 12 係冇消防水,亦都知道樓層係有放置滅火筒,佢曾經反映過滅火筒放置嘅位置唔就 13 手,要求改善。 14 杜淦堃資深大律師:而呢啲問題聽你頭先所講,你哋都係覺得宏業同鴻毅嘅問題,係咪? 15 駱倩盈女士:並唔係,因為就我而家睇緊呢位先生嘅投訴,其實我係即時同保安員了解過, 16 究竟其實啲滅火筒喺咩嘢情況底下任何人攞得到,原來係打開一個叫細水錶房嘅 17 門,咁上面係喉轆嚟嘅,其實你打開喉轆都會見到,只不過係可能有啲細水錶房門 18 係鎖咗,變相如果有人真係要用到個滅火筒嘅時候,道門未必開到。所以事後就即 19 時安排所有-- 巡樓嘅保安同事,就出(English Spoken ),即係內部嘅小便 20 條,唔係一個好正式嘅通告。叫佢哋將所有單數樓層,即係擺咗滅火筒嘅細水標房 21 門全部長期開鎖,所以亦都有做巡查,亦都會確保嗰道門隨時打得開嘅,有做呢個 22 即時嘅處理。 23 杜淦堃資深大律師:換句話講,即係或者有個例子,對於呢啲設施嘅投訴,管理處係會去處 24 理嘅? 25 駱倩盈女士:如果處理得到嘅我會處理,就好似頭先嗰個咁。 26 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白。另外一啲你哋覺得處理唔到嘅就係宏業同鴻毅嘅問題,係咪?即 27 係譬如個(English Spoken)幾耐? 28 駱倩盈女士:係,我只會睇嗰個日期究竟到期未囉。 29 杜淦堃資深大律師:至於嗰個日期係咪太長,呢個唔係你關注嘅事情,呢個係唔係你上司關 30 注嘅事情,定係你覺得係宏業同鴻毅關注嘅事情? 31 駱倩盈女士:我代唔到佢哋答。 32 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白。我想你幫我,幫一幫我哋去解釋另外一個題目,就係火警當日嘅 33 情況,因為你第一身都接觸到起火嗰個情況。你當時11 月26 號下午,你應該係喺 34 管理處嗰度嘅,宏昌閣,係咪? 35 駱倩盈女士:宏仁閣。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第六天

86 本謄本由Epiq 編製 杜淦堃資深大律師:你喺宏仁。你點知道火燭㗎? 1 駱倩盈女士:我當時喺宏仁閣嘅保安控制室,咁跟住就經對講機聽到宏昌閣嘅座頭阿鍾女士 2 嗌宏昌閣後面有火,咁我就即時嗌晒所有喺保安室嘅保安員去到現場。 3 杜淦堃資深大律師:而當時你係有報警嘅?我哋資料顯示。 4 駱倩盈女士:有。 5 杜淦堃資深大律師:你打咗999 之後,你亦都通知咗宏業,係咪? 6 駱倩盈女士:冇錯。 7 杜淦堃資深大律師:據資料顯示,你係第二位就呢個火警打999 嘅人士嚟嘅,我哋睇過你打 8 去畀999 熱線事後嘅謄本,我讀一讀畀你聽,因為我想提番你,你當時係咁講嘅。 9 我哋點知道係你呢?你當時就話你係宏福苑管理處,你姓羅嘅,你話第6 座嗰度懷 10 疑有火燭,因為有好多人打電話嚟。所以當時你打999 嘅時候,已經應該係收到好 11 多居民嘅電話,係咪咁? 12 駱倩盈女士:冇錯。 13 杜淦堃資深大律師:你從發現--即係對講聽到有火警到打999 應該係好短嘅時間㗎咋? 14 駱倩盈女士:好短嘅時間,但係幾短呢,我答唔到。 15 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白。但係個電話已經不停響,係咪? 16 駱倩盈女士:冇錯。 17 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁喺你打999 之前,除咗收到居民電話同埋喺嗰個對講機裏面聽到之 18 外,有冇維修工人或者判頭同你哋講話火燭? 19 駱倩盈女士:冇。 20 杜淦堃資深大律師:睇番你嘅證人供詞嘅第18 段,你睇一睇。 21 駱倩盈女士:Okay。可以。 22 杜淦堃資深大律師:你講到下午2 時50 分,你就知道有火警,跟住你哋就留咗喺嗰度接聽 23 居民嘅電話,你記唔記得你留咗喺度聽咗幾耐先至離開? 24 駱倩盈女士:冇留意時間。 25 杜淦堃資深大律師:之後你有用擴音器呼籲居民離開宏福苑,係咪? 26 駱倩盈女士:係。 27 杜淦堃資深大律師:當時我諗大家都同意,冇火警鐘嘅? 28 駱倩盈女士:我聽唔到。 29 杜淦堃資深大律師:而據你所講,你當時應該係唔清楚個火警警報系統熄咗,係咪? 30 駱倩盈女士:冇錯。 31 杜淦堃資深大律師:你講唔到你幾時用個擴音器叫居民離開,嗰個擴音器其實喺個管理處裏 32 面,所以你攞咗嚟用,係唔係好似大聲公即係? 33 駱倩盈女士:即係人哋喺隧道口(English Spoken)嗰啲流動擴音器。 34 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係一個可能... 35 駱倩盈女士:都高高地嘅,係嘞,有兩支咪咁樣。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第六天

87 本謄本由Epiq 編製 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁你就攞住嗌嘞? 1 駱倩盈女士:係呀。 2 杜淦堃資深大律師:你喺邊度嗌呀?可唔可以講到畀我哋聽之後嘅行為? 3 駱倩盈女士:詳細少少,就係其實除咗聽電話之外,咁當時應該係話我見到唔記得係經理定 4 主任去完現場再返嚟管理處,咁跟住我唔記--我唔肯定究竟係有人叫我攞擴音器定 5 係經過我個位見到部擴音器,我就認為既然有同事返咗嚟幫手聽電話,咁我就拿拿 6 聲攞部擴音器行到去管理處門口,即係宏仁閣(第1 座)同宏道閣中間,一路嗌, 7 嗌到去宏仁閣,直至到嗰個屋苑嘅車路嗰個位置,係嘞,即係淨係喺呢一路嘅位置 8 係咁嗌。 9 杜淦堃資深大律師:我知道好難記得準確個時間,你呢個不停咁嗌,嗌咗幾耐喥? 10 駱倩盈女士:我諗十至十五分--十鐘內,因為唔長嘅個時間,因為點解我會有咁嘅印象?就 11 係因為我企喺第1 座,咁拎對講機出去嗰一刻,其實都係--直至到嗰一刻我先知道 12 原來火勢係咁猛烈嘅,因為管理處門口封咗條通道,我喺control 入面根本就見 13 唔到出面究竟個煙、個火勢係點,直至到我拎到擴音機出去,我背住宏昌閣,即係 14 起火嗰邊,就向住宏仁閣馬路嗰邊嗌。咁我發現不停有啲灰,越嚟越多灰係飛過我 15 面前,咁我當下決定將支咪同個擴音器交咗畀一個當時應該佢着住一啲類似關愛隊 16 背心嘅人士,拜託佢繼續幫我嗌。我即刻跑番管理處叫我哋啲同事執好嘢,帶好晒 17 所有嘢準備隨時撤退。 18 杜淦堃資深大律師:跟住你入咗管理處交帶咗自己啲同事之後? 19 駱倩盈女士:跟住其實都係不停係咁聽電話,講電話,係嘞。 20 杜淦堃資深大律師:直至到... 21 駱倩盈女士:直至到我記得就係警方先後兩次要求我哋離開,第一次我冇理到,因為真係好 22 多電話。第二次個阿Sir 比較嚴厲啲「你哋必須要立即離開」,係嘞,即刻離開。 23 杜淦堃資深大律師:你去咗邊跟住? 24 駱倩盈女士:Sorry,我當中記番起少少。我嗌完擴音機之後,返入管理處,其實我再嗌對 25 講機叫所有保安同事返嚟管理處集合先嘅,跟住之後我就拎咗份當值,嗰日嘅日更 26 嘅當值人員名單,叫啲同事幫我數齊同事嘅人數,跟住之後喺警方第二次要求我哋 27 必須離開管理處入面嘅時候,我哋就同啲居民一樣去咗廣福社區會堂集合。而去到 28 廣福社區會堂未入去之前,我再點多次我哋職員人數究竟齊唔齊人,同埋叫佢哋打 29 電話畀屋企人報平安先。 30 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白。嗰時係幾多點? 31 駱倩盈女士:冇印象。 32 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白。剩番少少時間,我唔打算同你去探討一個新嘅題目。但係我唔想 33 你誤會,所以我諗我哋如果睇番頭先我同你探討一個問題,羅國瑞先生佢證人供詞 34 第19 段所講嘅嗰番說話,喺第1233 頁,因為呢度你都明白因為有個直接嘅... 35 駱倩盈女士:知道。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第六天

88 本謄本由Epiq 編製 杜淦堃資深大律師:...對你唔可以話有一個指控,但係佢有一個講法,而係因為佢係你嘅 1 同事,而佢同你嘅講法係截然不同嘅。 2 駱倩盈女士:係。 3 杜淦堃資深大律師:駱小姐,我想你明白我唔係話你講大話。 4 駱倩盈女士:知道。 5 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係我哋係想知道個真相啫。 6 駱倩盈女士:係。 7 杜淦堃資深大律師:所以對你同對羅先生我都覺得需要公平起見,但係我相信喺你哋有好好 8 嘅律師團隊嚟畀口供之前,我相信你有同羅先生亦都會傾過係唔係真係有件咁嘅 9 事,即係準備證人供詞嘅時候。 10 駱倩盈女士:就證人供詞我冇同羅先生傾過。 11 杜淦堃資深大律師:你完全冇同羅先生傾過? 12 駱倩盈女士:冇。 13 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係羅先生呢個講法,我相信你今日唔係第一次聽,係咪? 14 駱倩盈女士:我有睇過嘅事前。 15 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白。請你唔好講出同律師對話嘅內容畀我哋聽。 16 駱倩盈女士:係。 17 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係我就係想因呢個問題係比較重要嘅,所以我都想問多你一次。 18 駱倩盈女士:係。 19 杜淦堃資深大律師:你可唔可以話到畀我哋知,你會唔會理解到羅先生點解會咁講? 20 駱倩盈女士:唔理解。 21 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白。主席,呢個係適當嘅時候,我會去另一個題目,嗰個題目關於 22 (English Spoken),所以可能聽日繼續比較合適。 23 陸啟康法官:仲要少少時間? 24 杜淦堃資深大律師:我相信我哋仲需要二十分鐘--二十五分鐘。 25 陸啟康法官:咁好,我哋押後到聽日,麻煩你駱小姐聽日都要返嚟,10 點鐘。特別想喺呢度 26 提一提所有傳媒朋友,喺嗰個採訪過程之中,我知道大家對我哋今日畀證供嘅人士 27 可能想採訪,但係我希望大家都可以敏感啲,同埋尊重佢哋嘅情況,如果佢哋即係 28 願意接受訪問就接受,如果唔係嘅話,即係唔好有過度嘅騷擾,希望各位傳媒朋友 29 可以配合。 30 我哋聽日10 點鐘繼續,好唔好? 31

32 16 時25 分聆訊押後 33 (聆訊將於2026 年4 月1 日10 時00 分繼續) 34

FD06246 | 2025_港澳台_香港宏福苑大火_Transcript-(Chinese)_20260401.pdf

分类:06_境外及港澳台调查报告 | 年份:2025 | 地域:香港 | 严重程度: | 场所: | 起火原因: | 来源格式:pdf

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第七天

本謄本由Epiq 編製

就大埔宏福苑火災成立的獨立委員會

聽證會

高等法院原訟法庭陸啟康法官 陳健波議員 歐陽伯權博士

日期:

第七天 2026 年4 月1 日

杜淦堃資深大律師, 俞匡庭大律師, 李澍桓大律師, 馮天榮大律師, 張天風大律師及李俊軒大律師代表獨立委員會

許偉強資深大律師, 何卓衡大律師及楊志聰大律師代表置邦興業有限公司

孫靖乾資深大律師, 卓元暢大律師及陸栩然大律師代表政府

林樂夫大律師代表宏泰消防工程有限公司

律政司代表

呂世杰資深大律師及阮文躍大律師代表市區重建局

柯愷欣大律師代表宏福苑業主立案法團第十二屆管理委員會

譚俊傑大律師及李峰琦大律師代表宏福苑居民

競爭事務委員會代表

陳熾龍大律師代表梁秉基先生

文國灝大律師代表合安管理有限公司

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第七天

1 本謄本由Epiq 編製

以下內容乃聆訊數碼錄音謄本 1

2 10 時00 分聆訊恢復 3

4 10 時00 分置邦興業有限公司文員證人駱倩盈女士恢復作供 5

6 陸啟康法官:杜大律師,我諗呢一兩日都會係處理主要係置邦嘅證人,係咪? 7 杜淦堃資深大律師:冇錯,主席。駱小姐,早晨。 8 駱倩盈女士:早晨。 9 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋尋日喺休息之前你協助緊我哋就去解釋,喺證供上高你同羅先生可 10 能唔係好脗合嘅地方。我都想問一問你,因為你喺宏福苑工作咗好長一段時間,你 11 嘅證供都提到其實你參加咗好多佢哋嗰啲同維修有關嘅會議。 12 駱倩盈女士:係。 13 杜淦堃資深大律師:而有好多啲會議紀錄係你本人去撰寫嘅,係咪呀? 14 駱倩盈女士:係。 15 杜淦堃資深大律師:所以就嗰啲問題,我想你幫一幫我哋。 16 駱倩盈女士:好。 17 杜淦堃資深大律師:我明白你可能有啲事情係你唔知道嘅,但係因為你有份參與,所以都想 18 儘量請你幫一幫忙。我想問一問你,琴日可能你都喺度,關於嗰個消防水缸嘅問 19 題,你知道喺天面位有個水缸? 20 駱倩盈女士:唔。 21 杜淦堃資深大律師:就唔係黐住大廈天面,係𢲲起咗嘅。 22 駱倩盈女士:係。 23 杜淦堃資深大律師:你有上過去㗎,係咪呀? 24 駱倩盈女士:如果你指係要擒天台嗰貓梯上去嘅一個,稱之為高天面嘅地方,我有上過。 25 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,我想你幫一幫我哋睇一睇呢一份文件先,喺H1-1/155 頁,我哋知 26 道喺宏福苑嘅維修工程裏面,業主同宏業嘅合約呢,係有包括維修呢啲水缸嘅,你 27 見到6.2(a)。 28 駱倩盈女士:係。 29 杜淦堃資深大律師:首先,你知道工程有一部分係同維修消防水缸有關,係咪?喺你處理過 30 嘅文件裏面你應該曾經見過? 31 駱倩盈女士:有。 32 杜淦堃資深大律師:你有冇見過呢份合約,你有冇睇過㗎? 33 駱倩盈女士:呢份合約我有擸過,但係冇仔細咁睇。 34

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第七天

2 本謄本由Epiq 編製 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白,6.2 (a)呢一度,你見到呢個工程係為數唔細嘅工程嚟嘅, 1 $616 萬嘅。 2 駱倩盈女士:係。 3 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢個應該係咁多座加埋嘅,係咪? 4 駱倩盈女士:唔清楚。 5 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔,明白。你見到呢度講,佢係所有公用石屎水缸,但包括不--但不限 6 於泵房內嘅水缸,高天面嘅水缸等修葺工程。高天面嘅水缸就係我哋頭先講,你講 7 嗰個喇,係咪?爬貓梯上去嗰個? 8 駱倩盈女士:係,我估係,因為爬貓梯上上面,有幾個蓋,我唔知道個打邊個。 9 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔,係嘞,我哋睇到呢一項,其實如果我哋掃落去1,2,3,4,5, 10 6,7,8,咁呀有唔同嘅工程都係關於啲水缸嘅。琴日Victory Fire 嘅代表喺 11 庭上作供嘅時候,你都喺度喇,係咪? 12 駱倩盈女士:喺度。 13 杜淦堃資深大律師:你都有聽到佢講關於要鋪番啲磚喺嗰個消防缸嗰一段嘅證據,係咪? 14 駱倩盈女士:係。 15 杜淦堃資深大律師:對於要做消防缸呢個工程呢,似乎喺換咗法團代表之後,管委會之後 16 呢,大家係有一啲意見係其實我哋需唔需要做咁多呢啲工程嘅,你記唔記得? 17 駱倩盈女士:記得。 18 杜淦堃資深大律師:而當時IO 嘅代表係有嘗試因應居民嘅要求,似乎把工程嘅範圍係縮細 19 嘅? 20 駱倩盈女士:係。 21 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係大家去睇下係咪真係要做㗎,如果唔使做嗰啲,cut 啲,慳番啲 22 錢,咁講啱唔啱? 23 駱倩盈女士:啱。 24 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想你幫一幫我哋睇一份可能都係你準備嘅記錄,H1-3/6033 頁,我 25 哋見到呢一個係2024 年11 月13 號嘅紀錄,喺宏志閣會議室,而出席嘅有法 26 團、管理處、鴻毅同埋宏業嘅,呢一個紀錄係唔係--似唔似係你做嘅紀錄? 27 駱倩盈女士:係。 28 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋見到喺6033 頁一開始就話「法團就個別刪除項目逐一與宏業及鴻 29 毅討論。細項同埋結論詳見大維修工程另外有個表格」,但係我想你睇一睇嘅就係 30 喺下一頁6034,你見到而家螢光幕較下部分有個「天台儲水缸呢個題目」嘅。 31 駱倩盈女士:係。 32 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢度就提到,法團將申請水務處推行呢個水安全計劃嘅資助喇,咁就話 33 叫宏業可唔可以暫時停止打鑿天台儲水缸喇。咁呢度講咗個程序,你見到呢度當時 34 係你做嘅紀錄,係咪? 35 駱倩盈女士:係。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第七天

3 本謄本由Epiq 編製 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋講完呢個程式之後,下一段係咁講「宏業只可先做消防缸,再整咸 1 水及淡水缸,屆時要借用消防缸」,跟住就話「此項目特定先由宏業嘅侯生介紹水 2 喉匠」你記得有呢個討論㗎,係咪? 3 駱倩盈女士:有。 4 杜淦堃資深大律師:你可唔可以講到畀我哋聽,以你嘅記憶,當時個討論應該就係話居民表 5 達其實啲天台嘅呢啲水缸可唔可以唔整?但似乎宏業表示都係要整,你個印象係咪 6 咁呀? 7 駱倩盈女士:係。 8 杜淦堃資深大律師:你仲可唔可以幫到我哋,你記唔記得當時有冇啲乜嘢嘅解說話點解要整 9 呀?同埋其他嘅細節?因為你有參加會議,所以想麻煩你幫一幫忙? 10 駱倩盈女士:真係有印象嘅就係--因為始終太耐。 11 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白。 12 駱倩盈女士:我記得有講過就係話水缸入面有啲配件可能損毀咗或者失效咗,咁亦都有可能 13 有啲水管係生鏽,咁對於一個食水缸,畀人飲用嘅,水質唔係咁理想,所以會有呢 14 個工程去做,喺印象中我係咁。 15 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢個印象係關於嗰個食水缸。 16 駱倩盈女士:係。 17 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋頭先講咗生鏽,你記唔記得有冇咩嘢理由係要整個消防缸? 18 駱倩盈女士:有,因為食水缸要整嘅情況底下,你必須要搵一個臨時嘅替代缸,所以照呢份 19 字面解釋就係話可以先維修個消防缸,維修完消防缸之後,消防缸就會轉做臨時嘅 20 食水缸,到時真正嘅食水缸就可以做維修。 21 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔,呢個似乎文件都係顯示到呢一樣嘢嘅,因為如果你睇--我再帶你去 22 睇6080 頁,你睇番之前嗰頁你就會--6079 呢個係大廈大維修工程嘅進度會議摘 23 要,我哋見到管理處有兩個代表,你都係喺度。當時法團就有徐滿柑主席同埋副主 24 席,同埋江祥發先生,你記得呢個文件應該都係咁做,係咪? 25 駱倩盈女士:唔,冇錯。 26 杜淦堃資深大律師:如果你去睇番下一頁,第8 項,呢度咁講「宏業報告會於2025 年4 月 27 7 日起進行宏泰閣、宏志閣嘅消防缸防水工程,屆時消防缸會暫停運作,及向消防 28 處申請掛牌,另外,亦會於單數單位--單數層嘅樓層擺放防水--擺放水劑及滅火 29 筒」,你都記得有呢個討論,係咪? 30 駱倩盈女士:有。 31 杜淦堃資深大律師:聽你咁講同埋文件顯示,似乎當時建議嘅做法就係將嗰個消防缸去翻 32 新,令到佢做到可以裝食水? 33 駱倩盈女士:係。 34 杜淦堃資深大律師:而呢個係一個臨時做法,而佢哋話要咁做,係因為整食水缸嗰陣可以用 35 個消防缸嚟頂住先,係咪咁? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第七天

4 本謄本由Epiq 編製 駱倩盈女士:冇錯。 1 杜淦堃資深大律師:有冇人質疑過呢個做法係咪唯一嘅做法或者係咪合適嘅做法? 2 駱倩盈女士:我記得有人提議過好多唔同嘅做法嘅,但係而家呢一刻,因為喺開會嘅期間, 3 其實會有其他街坊列席,又或者有好多承辦商嘅人都會一齊,嗰啲商討期間嗰啲唔 4 係一啲結果嘅嘢我冇--冇記憶係,係嘞。 5 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白,亦都一段時間之前,所以都係想你儘量協助我哋。我睇番呢個文 6 件,如果去番之前嗰頁,我哋留意到個日期係3 月29 日嘅,如果我哋睇番呢個文 7 件夾6113 頁,我哋睇到過幾個月發生咩嘢事。去到8 月嘅時候,我哋睇番呢個文 8 件應該都係顯示一個你有出席嘅會議? 9 駱倩盈女士:係。 10 杜淦堃資深大律師:見到你同埋黎經理嘅名,呢份文件都係你做㗎喇應該? 11 駱倩盈女士:冇錯。 12 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,咁我哋睇番6113,睇第6 項,嗰度講咗個消防缸個進度,呢度咁 13 講,「G、H 座消防缸維修工程已完成,將會與管理處商討消防缸轉為臨時食水缸嘅 14 安排」,跟住又講到「D 唔、E、F 座消防缸維修工程仍然進行中」,呢個就同我哋 15 頭先睇嗰個文件,基本上就係記錄番同一個處理方法,同埋嗰個進程嘅進度勒。 16 駱倩盈女士:係。 17 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔,似乎文件顯示到就係,因為要做呢啲工程呢,嗰個消防栓同喉轆系 18 統係長期咁樣去關閉嘅? 19 駱倩盈女士:係。 20 杜淦堃資深大律師:而呢一個--睇下你幫唔幫到我哋,亦都可能解釋到,我哋去Bundle 21 R1/第1 頁,我哋之前喺聽證會都顯示過呢個文件出嚟,呢個係中華發展,即係另 22 外嗰個消防工程嘅承辦商嘅發票嚟嘅,呢啲文件你可能都會見過,係咪? 23 駱倩盈女士:我冇見過。 24 杜淦堃資深大律師:你冇見過,但係如果我哋睇番第三項,如果我哋一路落去,你見到第二 25 項嗰度,我哋之前都提過呢一點嘅,其實係喺呢一日,上少少會見到日期嘅,就係 26 你哋頭先開--我睇過一個會議記錄就係3 月29 號,其實3 月28 號,即係之前嗰 27 日有張咁嘅發票,裏面就講咗話第二項消防工程關閉係要每次十四日,嗰陣已經預 28 咗一年㗎嘞。似乎我哋睇到個情況就係因為有人提議用個消防缸嚟代替--做臨時食 29 水缸,所以要做呢啲嘅工程,而似乎係要做好耐,所以一開始已經因為呢個做法就 30 關閉一年。你有冇印象喺開會嘅時候有討論呢啲問題? 31 駱倩盈女士:冇印象。 32 杜淦堃資深大律師:另外一樣嘢,我哋喺啲相度睇到嘅琴日就係,似乎有啲同消防缸連接嘅 33 喉管係有啲工程係進行中嘅喺大火嘅時候,而有啲喉管似乎係被拆除,琴日我哋睇 34 到啲相,似乎呢個都係同--將呢個消防缸做臨時食水缸有關嘅,你對於呢一樣嘢又 35 有冇印象? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第七天

5 本謄本由Epiq 編製 駱倩盈女士:我對於關於呢個消防缸嘅維修,涉及啲咩嘢部分係完全唔清楚,我淨係知道會 1 冇水。 2 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔。另外一方面想你記一記,睇下幫唔幫到我哋嘅。八座都有消防缸 3 㗎,有啲證據顯示有人話有漏水,但係亦都有人質疑其實係冇漏水,冇必要去做呢 4 個工程,你記唔記得有冇呢啲嘅討論? 5 駱倩盈女士:有。 6 杜淦堃資深大律師:你記得啲乜嘢,可唔可以講畀委員會聽? 7 駱倩盈女士:都係嗰句,印象中嘅啫。 8 杜淦堃資深大律師:冇問題。 9 駱倩盈女士:係嘞,因為有啲31 樓嘅住戶,即係最高層樓上就係天台嘅住戶,個天花係會 10 有滲漏,為數都唔係話兩三隻咁少嘅,每一座。咁嗰陣時我記得有傾過究竟係啲水- 11 -天台水缸漏水吖,定係因為個天台地面防水層有損壞。亦都有講過,宏業嗰邊亦都 12 有講過就係話好大機會係嗰陣時做天台嗰個太陽能板工程,係嘞,導致個--因為做 13 呢個太陽能板工程嘅時候,我唔在職,我都係聽番佢哋講。佢哋就話嗰個太陽能板 14 工程做嘅時候係包括天面層,即係天台我哋行嘅位置去做一個防水,咁嗰個防水 15 呢,根據佢哋工程經驗係做得唔理想嘅,所以嗰個防水層有機會其實係已經損壞 16 咗,係嘞,咁所以喺會議之中有要求過再聯絡番太陽能板嘅工程公司嚟再睇下可唔 17 可以做多次天面防水,從而再睇下住戶單位上面嘅天花究竟會唔會有好轉呢個情 18 況,主要講關於天台滲水嘅係呢樣嘢,對於水缸有冇漏水,呢個我冇乜印象。 19 杜淦堃資深大律師:駱小姐,都想你諗一諗呢樣嘢,因為你--你都會理解我哋而家探討嘅其 20 中一個問題就係有冇一啲其實唔需要做嘅工程,喺某些其他原因之下就做咗,咁令 21 到啲業主可能做咗一啲其實冇需要嘅嘢,你會明白就係31 樓嘅住戶滲水,呢個唔 22 等於啲消防缸漏水嘅。 23 駱倩盈女士:同意。 24 杜淦堃資深大律師:係嘞,佢嗰個天面防水工程做得唔好係其中一個理由。 25 駱倩盈女士:冇錯。 26 杜淦堃資深大律師:同埋因為啲消防缸係𢲲起咗㗎嘛。 27 駱倩盈女士:係。 28 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,咁所以我想問下就係有冇人就質疑就係話31 樓居民個單位可能有 29 漏水嘅情況,但係呢個同消防缸冇關㗎喎,有冇人去睇清楚消防缸其實係咪真係漏 30 水呢?同埋係咪八座都漏水? 31 駱倩盈女士:喺我印象中冇人可以好斷定咁樣話31 樓住戶天花嘅漏水究竟係真係天面防水 32 層破損,定係水缸有損壞而導致,係嘞。 33 陸啟康法官:或者我想問一問有冇人嗰陣時--首先,多謝你解釋咗我尋日嗰個疑問。有冇人 34 解釋過畀居民聽,如果用咁嘅方法,其實佢嗰個消防嘅缸係會一個長時間係用唔 35 到,而係可能喺如果有火災嘅情況之下危險,有冇人解釋過呢一個危險性畀居民 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第七天

6 本謄本由Epiq 編製 聽? 1 駱倩盈女士:印象中係有出過通告嘅,但係你話張通告係咪貼咗好長時間或者係咪一個大家 2 認為好顯眼嘅位,我唔敢肯定。咁但係另外喺... 3 陸啟康法官:唔該,個通告講乜嘢? 4 駱倩盈女士:張通告就係話因應嗰個消防水缸一個工程,所以而家就會喺單數樓層擺滅火筒 5 喺個水錶房度。 6 杜淦堃資深大律師:都想問埋你最幾條問題,睇下你記唔記得。事實上高有冇人講過話 7 「啊,睇過嘞,消防水缸真係漏水,所以要整」? 8 駱倩盈女士:印象中冇。 9 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔該晒你。接住落嚟我想問一問你一啲有關開會嘅情況,因為好多時, 10 我見到開會你都有參與,呢啲包括一啲周年大會或者一啲叫EGM,即係唔係周年 11 嘅,就係或者係平時特別召開嘅會議。好多時我哋知道有啲業主冇嚟,但係有啲授 12 權票或者委任文件委任其他人幫佢哋去投票嘅。 13 駱倩盈女士:冇錯。 14 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢個情況本身冇問題嘅。 15 駱倩盈女士:係。 16 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係你見過呢啲情況出現當然? 17 駱倩盈女士:係。 18 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔,我想問下你一般嚟講,喺宏福苑就大維修工程裏面有人用授權票嚟 19 投票,普唔普遍呀?你嘅記憶。 20 駱倩盈女士:你指係投選大維修承辦商嗰次,定係唔好理邊次? 21 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔好理邊次,我想講...(聽不清) 22 駱倩盈女士:普遍嘅。 23 杜淦堃資深大律師:普遍嘅。 24 駱倩盈女士:唔。 25 杜淦堃資深大律師:有證據顯示係喺有關維修工程係好多授權票嘅,即係我哋講唔到幾多, 26 所以想你憑一憑你嘅印象講畀我哋聽。 27 駱倩盈女士:過百㗎,過百㗎,甚至乎印象中喺譬如9 月6 號,即係轉法團成員嗰屆,成二 28 百幾、三百添,係呀,多㗎。 29 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔。咁去譬如另外揀選邊個承辦商、揀選顧問,嗰啲全部都有開會㗎 30 嘛? 31 駱倩盈女士:係。 32 杜淦堃資深大律師:嗰啲會嘅授權票多唔多? 33 駱倩盈女士:揀選顧問公司嘅時候,我係在職嘅。咁嗰陣時應該--因為每次大會都係百零張 34 喇,呢個基本嘅。係嘞,但係你話揀選大維修承辦商,即係選宏業出嚟嗰陣時,我 35 就唔在職,所以呢個我答你唔到。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第七天

7 本謄本由Epiq 編製 杜淦堃資深大律師:你嘅在職期間,就收到個驗樓--強制驗樓通知書嘅,係咪呀? 1 駱倩盈女士:係。 2 杜淦堃資深大律師:揀註冊檢驗人員,即係個RI 嘅時候你都喺度嘅? 3 駱倩盈女士:係。 4 陳健波議員:駱小姐,我想問一問呢,因為我哋比較關注嗰啲授權書嘅問題,因為我哋屋苑 5 都好困擾呢樣嘢。 6 駱倩盈女士:係。 7 陳健波議員:我想問一問你,你大概--頭先你話有過百,佔個總比例幾多,即係個授權書? 8 駱倩盈女士:我哋全苑1,984,咁過百嘅,基本上--或者簡單啲咁講,基本上只要被授權嘅 9 人嚟到簽到晒,其實個會已經夠人數開㗎嘞。 10 陳健波議員:係呀,但係我想知呢,即係頭先你講,因為你只係計嗰個分數,即係唔... 11 (聽不清) 12 駱倩盈女士:唔,唔,唔,係。 13 陳健波議員:...嗰個--喺呢個公契嘅分數去計㗎嘛,即係我想就係佔--譬如授權票佔七成 14 吖、五成吖、定係三成?即係授權票係咪一個影響好大嘅因素呢? 15 駱倩盈女士:喺宏福苑嚟講係。 16 陳健波議員:即係會佔七成呀,頭先如果你用百四同埋一百嗰個...(聽不清) 17 駱倩盈女士:你話個percentage 我真係答你唔到。但係喺我即係過去參與嘅業主大會, 18 總之有投票嗰啲嘢嘢,其實授權書嗰個佔嘅--令到個結果出嚟,我覺得係好明顯 19 嘅。 20 陳健波議員:即係會超過一半,你會唔會講係超過一半呀? 21 駱倩盈女士:可以咁講。 22 陳健波議員:Okay,咁我想問... 23 駱倩盈女士:但係呢個係印象啫,事實上係咪,我真係唔知,係呀。 24 陳健波議員:係,明白。我都想問呢,咁你哋有冇check 嗰個授權書係咪真假呢?因為有 25 啲屋苑會點做呢?譬如你有授權書,佢會抽查,譬如抽查三成,打電話畀嗰個業 26 主,問下你係咪真係簽過一張咁嘅授權書,咁你哋有冇做呢個抽查嘅工作呀? 27 駱倩盈女士:喺我在任嘅期間,我就冇做抽查嘅工作,我只會跟番嗰張授權書上面核對個業 28 主名... 29 陳健波議員:個名... 30 駱倩盈女士:...同埋個單位,同埋佢個... 31 陳健波議員:核對個簽名咁,係咪呀? 32 駱倩盈女士:簽名冇得對㗎,講真。 33 陳健波議員:...(聽不清)你淨係檢對個單位咋嘛。 34 駱倩盈女士:打個交叉我都當佢簽咗名㗎嘞,係呀。除非佢張授權書係漏咗一啲資料,可能 35 佢冇寫樓層或者係真係冇簽名,咁我就會聯絡番嗰個業主,「啊,我哋收到張咁嘅 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第七天

8 本謄本由Epiq 編製 嘢,想確認係咪你㗎?哦,如果係你嘅,其實我而家見到某一啲位置,可能有啲嘢 1 未齊喎,咁你需唔需要補充番?」咁樣囉,係嘞。 2 陳健波議員:即係如果資料足夠呢,你係唔會跟查,亦都唔會去打--抽查問你係唔係佢簽 3 嘅,你唔會做呢個工作㗎嘛? 4 駱倩盈女士:唔會,只會發一張法定嘅所謂收據,由秘書簽署嘅收據畀番嗰個--嗰戶人囉。 5 陳健波議員:即係個事後... 6 駱倩盈女士:咁嗰戶人如果收到嗰個--都唔算事後,喺大會開之前必須發番呢張回條畀嗰個 7 住客嘅。咁如果嗰個住客收到呢張嘢,而佢認為我冇交過授權書,點解你會畀呢張 8 嘢我,咁我哋--係有發生㗎,不過唔多。咁我哋就會即刻check 番嗰個業主先。 9 首先佢話佢係業主啫,咁我哋都要check 番㗎,如果核實咗佢係業主身份,我哋 10 就會𠳕番佢嗰個單位我哋收到嘅授權書,畀番佢睇,係呢張喎,會唔會係多於一個 11 業主去簽而你哋唔知呀?有咁嘅發生嘅,係嘞。 12 陳健波議員:即係呢個程序係都有發生過,有啲人係唔認嗰張係佢簽嘅...(聽不清)。 13 駱倩盈女士:係,冇錯,冇錯,係嘞。 14 陳健波議員:咁你最多取消嗰張授權書嘅啫,係咪? 15 駱倩盈女士:唔係㗎,因為有啲人會堅持佢--有人冒佢簽名做一個假嘅文書出嚟吖嘛,咁我 16 哋通常就會首先建議佢問清楚屋企人先喇,係嘞,第二就係話會建議佢考慮需唔需 17 要報警處理,係嘞。 18 陳健波議員:有冇知道有冇啲真係報警㗎,有冇㗎? 19 駱倩盈女士:以我所知,冇。 20 陳健波議員:冇,哦。 21 駱倩盈女士:係嘞。經我手嘅冇囉只可以話,佢有冇自己去報警,我唔知。 22 陳健波議員:Okay,我想問呢,你覺得--因為呢個都係香港嘅整體一個問題,都係我哋檢 23 討嘅方向,即係點樣改善個授權書嘅制度,呢個可以造成好多問題,你會唔會有啲 24 咩嘢--因為你做咗咁耐,又經歷咗咁多,你覺得有咩嘢方法可以即係令到嗰個授權 25 書嘅制度更加係--即係一方面授權書係需要嘅,因為有時你唔夠人根本就開唔到 26 會,但係都畀人濫用咗,或者畀人去即係做咗啲非法嘅行為,咁你覺得點樣可以加 27 強控制?我哋冇可能百分之一百控制,但係我哋點樣去提高嗰個控制嗰個水平,令 28 到佢更加正路咁去做呢件事? 29 駱倩盈女士:如果可以嘅話,首先業主要個業權改咗名,或者有所改變嘅情況,第一時間通 30 知番管理處先。 31 陳健波議員:係。 32 駱倩盈女士:因為喺宏福苑,舉個例,其實有好多好多單位可能爸爸媽媽離開咗,仔女冇去 33 搞個業權,變相我哋喺查冊嘅名冊上面都係已經離開咗嘅人,咁佢哋嘅仔女就冇權 34 去代佢爸爸媽媽去做投票呢樣嘢,呢樣嘢喺宏福苑嚟講係好普遍嘅。係,咁第二樣 35 嘢就係話睇下有冇可能物管公司或者立例,可能要提供一份(English 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第七天

9 本謄本由Epiq 編製 Spoken)嘅業主嘅文件,上面係有業主嘅簽名模式。 1 陳健波議員:係。 2 駱倩盈女士:咁變相作為物管公司或者法團都好,喺收到呢個單位上面就可以拎番呢個業主 3 嘅簽名樣式去核對,我覺得起碼唔會真係打個交叉,潦隻龜,我就已經可以當佢係 4 一份正式簽署嘅文件。同埋可以--學你話齋,隨機抽查,可能收到一百份,我抽其 5 中十五份出嚟打電話問下係咪囉,咁樣。但係因為而家冇呢樣規定,但係有陣時亦 6 都係曾經宏福苑發生,亦都係我個人發生嘅,就係話見到一啲授權書資料唔齊,我 7 咪打電話上去同個業主講,你想--譬如欠簽名,「咁你需唔需要加簽番?」咁樣, 8 咁個住客話「好」咁樣,咁我話「咁你想你落嚟定係我拎上嚟畀你加簽?」咁有陣 9 時多老人家「你上嚟喇」咁樣,咁可能佢都識我咁樣,咁我就拎上去佢單位,咁畀- 10 -喺門口同佢對一對個身份證,雖然就算我知道佢係一定係業主,但係我都會對身份 11 證嘅,咁我亦都會出示我個員工證,咁就喺門口度畀佢加簽,簽完,我就會拎番去 12 寫字樓。但係喺呢段期間,曾經有一啲住客可能唔清楚或者本身對法團或者對管理 13 處本身個印象都唔係咁好,就話「管理處駱小姐上門收授權書,騙阿婆簽名」,係 14 有發生過呢啲嘢嘅,係,咁樣。咁我覺得喺呢一(English Spoken)度,唔會 15 係得宏福苑曾經發生呢樣嘢,我諗全港屋苑或者物管公司都曾經會經歷過呢樣嘢。 16 係,因為呢樣嘢係好普遍。 17 陳健波議員:多謝你寶貴意見。 18 杜淦堃資深大律師:如果可以跟進咁問一問,我哋知道呢啲嘢係有法例規管,但係就宏福苑 19 嚟講,嗰啲授權票係要開會之前幾耐交到你哋手上? 20 駱倩盈女士:四十八小時。 21 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁你哋去核實或者你去Check 嗰啲授權票有冇問題,係相信係喺嗰四 22 十八小時裏面做完,係咪? 23 駱倩盈女士:必須要。 24 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁你嘅意思就係,你哋雖然唔會每一個居民都打去問下「喂,你哋係咪 25 真係授權咗第二位嚟投票?」 26 駱倩盈女士:係,唔會。 27 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係你哋見到有問題嗰啲,你哋會跟進? 28 駱倩盈女士:冇錯。 29 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白。而你哋一路嘅做法都係管理處幫手,物業管理公司去處理呢一 30 part 嘅工作,係咪? 31 駱倩盈女士:係。 32 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想問一問你開會本身,個會,邊個可以入去嗰個會場,係你哋用咩嘢 33 方法去核實嗰個身分? 34 駱倩盈女士:其實好多時都唔限個喎,你鍾意入嚟咪入嚟。 35 杜淦堃資深大律師:所以入到嚟開會,即係啲居民大會,其實就都好多人,有時。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第七天

10 本謄本由Epiq 編製 駱倩盈女士:係。 1 杜淦堃資深大律師:就似乎就係邊個嚟就入得,就冇話要居民、要業主先入得,係咪? 2 駱倩盈女士:都係--照用番,譬如好似9 月6 號咁,新舊法團有機會係改變,咁嗰下因為其 3 實喺開會之前,啲居民嘅反應係寧舍熱烈嘅,咁係--咁場地上面亦都有所限制,因 4 為都驚話會人多擠逼,所以當時係限咗如果你係業主,確認咗你係業主嘅,或者你 5 係正式一個被授權人嘅,就上樓上主會場一個禮堂,如果你都係業主,但係禮堂已 6 經爆咗一個人數,而業主本身帶一個可能工人姐姐,或者佢嘅唔係業主嘅朋友或者 7 屋企人,你就可以坐樓下嘅雨天操場。咁簡單啲嚟講,你要入嚟嘅,而有業主帶你 8 入嚟嘅,其實我哋都冇權拒絕。 9 杜淦堃資深大律師:你會知道有一個講法,就係喺有啲重要嘅會議裏面,有可能有好多唔係 10 居民嘅人入咗去,搞到啲居民入唔到,聽你咁講,即係呢個係有可能嘅? 11 駱倩盈女士:有。 12 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係個原因就唔知? 13 駱倩盈女士:唔。 14 杜淦堃資深大律師:而除咗你講9 月6 號嗰次,其他一啲嘅要投票嘅大會,如果我理解你嘅 15 證據冇錯,就係好多時都係冇核實身份,但係就可以--嚟到就可以入嘅? 16 駱倩盈女士:係,冇錯。 17 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係呢個唔係一個批評,但係真係咁樣發生? 18 駱倩盈女士:係,真嘅。 19 杜淦堃資深大律師:就嗰個授權票問多你一樣嘢,睇下可唔可以幫到我哋,有冇一個--有一 20 個指控就係話,有好多時好多張授權票係授權畀一個人或者幾個人嘅,你記唔記得 21 有啲咁嘅情況? 22 駱倩盈女士:會有。 23 杜淦堃資深大律師:你有冇印象,有冇一啲記憶係特別多人授權啲乜嘢人? 24 駱倩盈女士:通常都係主席、副主席呢啲,係,委員,係。 25 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係有邊個可能收得特別多,你就冇乜記憶? 26 駱倩盈女士:通常都係主席、副主席。 27 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔該。我想問下你,我哋知道就管委會同可能鴻毅或者宏業去揀呢啲顧 28 問或者承判商嘅時候有安排過一啲面試,你有冇參加嗰啲面試? 29 駱倩盈女士:冇。 30 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁你頭先所講2021 年12 月11 號嗰個特別業主大會,去委任鴻毅做 31 顧問,嗰次你喺度,係咪? 32 駱倩盈女士:係。 33 杜淦堃資深大律師:嗰次個爭議大唔大,你嘅記憶? 34 駱倩盈女士:其實每次業主大會爭議都好大。 35 杜淦堃資深大律師:而照你嘅印象,主要爭議嘅內容係啲乜嘢?即係唔滿意嘅係啲乜嘢? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第七天

11 本謄本由Epiq 編製 駱倩盈女士:唔滿意嘅係,有啲住客會認為資料唔全面,未清晰嘅情況底下就要投票。 1 杜淦堃資深大律師:仲有呢?有冇其他你有印象? 2 駱倩盈女士:對於個金額,因為其實每次可能一啲工程嘅金額,最低同最高上落都會好大分 3 別。咁通常主要就係居民,因為始終佢哋係畀錢嘅一方,咁佢哋會覺得同一個內容 4 嘅報價,點解落差會咁大?唔同公司,所以佢哋好多時就會喺業主大會上面好想問 5 清楚呢樣嘢,點解會有落差咁大,但係內容一樣嘅工作。係,但係因為奈何業主大 6 會時間係有限制,有啲時候係睇住時間就局住要開始投票咁樣。 7 杜淦堃資深大律師:就你嘅觀察,你覺得居民呢啲嘅投訴合唔合理? 8 駱倩盈女士:合理嘅,但係又咁講,居民畀每一筆錢需要了解多啲嘅,我覺得好合理。我作 9 為自己屋苑嘅居民,我都會覺得需要了解多啲嘅。但係其實可以--因為其實任何業 10 主大會,甚至乎唔好話業主大會,一啲管理委員會嘅會議,其實都會張貼議程喺大 11 堂,業主大會嘅議程甚至乎會派入信箱,十四日前,其實喺你收到呢個議程同業主 12 大會開始投票嘅中間,你多除少補有十三日、十二日,其實居民可以喺呢十幾日入 13 面去就嗰個會議入面嘅內容去問清楚,而唔需要逼到喺業主大會嗰兩三個鐘頭先去 14 問。 15 杜淦堃資深大律師:據你所知,你話開會之前嗰十四日都可以問,有冇啲居民投訴就唔知問 16 邊個,或者問完之後都冇一個合理嘅答覆? 17 駱倩盈女士:居民就通常點都嚟管理處先㗎嘞,不論佢嗰樣嘢係咪管理處--或者有啲居民會 18 問法團,因為可能法團有啲定期會議,點都見到法團,同埋法團成員住喺屋苑㗎 19 嘛,係,你都會問佢嘅。如果要睇文件,其實都會指示佢嚟管理處。如果係法團批 20 准嘅情況底下,其實任何文件管理處都開放畀居民隨時嚟睇,但係唔可以帶走。 21 杜淦堃資深大律師:最後我想問一問你,就係其實可能係更正番證人供詞裏面一啲嘅時間, 22 因為鄭芷盈小姐佢嘅證人供詞第28 段就係話你係置邦團隊嘅一員,亦都話你曾經 23 協助2024 年1 月28 日嗰次嘅會議嘅行政工作,準備文件,出席登記。但係你嗰 24 陣應該冇參與,係咪? 25 駱倩盈女士:24 年1 月? 26 杜淦堃資深大律師:28。 27 駱倩盈女士:我應該係未入職,24 年。 28 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,你應該係2020 或者2021 離開咗,2024 年8 月先返嚟嘅。 29 駱倩盈女士:係。 30 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係所以佢呢個講法可能係記錯咗? 31 駱倩盈女士:係,係。嗰次係--聽番同事講應該喺籃球場,如果係嗰次嘅話,就我諗同事記 32 錯咗。 33 杜淦堃資深大律師:最後就一啲--即係當然你公司有公司嘅立場,居民關於大維修嘅一啲問 34 題,公司有冇指示你哋點樣去處理或者點樣去解答,或者搵邊個? 35 駱倩盈女士:公司只會--其實唔好話公司,上司就係話「肯定嘅先可以答」。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第七天

12 本謄本由Epiq 編製 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白。 1 駱倩盈女士:同埋工程會入面都有--其中一份有講過就係話,如果住客問工程嘅嘢,就轉介 2 番畀宏業,或者直接叫佢聯絡搵職員,管理處淨係答番管理處嘅日常工作就算。 3 杜淦堃資深大律師:駱小姐,多謝你。最後我想問你呢條問題,我問你因為你喺宏福苑工作 4 時間好長。 5 駱倩盈女士:唔。 6 杜淦堃資深大律師:同埋我諗大家都會同意,你嘅答案好清晰,我想畀個機會你,就呢一次 7 事件,你有冇其他嘢想同委員會講? 8 駱倩盈女士:同委員會講就冇,但係因為尋日我曾經作過供,網上面都好多唔係咁公平嘅。 9 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白。 10 駱倩盈女士:有好、有唔好嘅嘢,我反而想同居民講,唔知容唔容許。第一,雖然尋日話我 11 同另外一位同事羅先生嘅證供有好大嘅出入,但係希望大家知道,始終過咗咁耐, 12 我唔排除我自己又或者我同事,其實個記憶有機會係出現錯亂。唔可以喺我同事未 13 作供之前,就斷定我哋任何一方係想卸責,或者已經斷定我哋係呢件火災嘅其中一 14 個製造者。 15 同埋另外亦都有居民--我肯定佢係居民嘅,就話想知道火災當日其實管理處嘅 16 職員做過啲乜,因為有居民就話「火災走咗之後,管理處嘅職員消失晒」,喺度, 17 我想用一分鐘嘅時間去講多少少,當日火災其實我哋管理處職員係做咗啲乜。我唔 18 係話我哋管理處做過啲乜,想話去努力維護我哋自己,我唔係咁。係因為有居民真 19 係想知道。除咗琴日我作供嘅,話拎個大聲公、聽電話,其實我哋每座嘅保安員, 20 係,甚至乎喺(English Spoken)嘅保安員,其實係好自發性跑上一啲佢哋認 21 為未有危險嘅樓層,每座大廈,佢哋真係有拍門㗎。只不過可能佢哋真係上到好低 22 層,真係濃煙嚟到,佢哋冇得再上,而冇拍到你屋企門口。 23 另外就係話,當下警方有要求我哋聯絡承辦商去剪棚網,當然,火勢咁大,我 24 唔知究竟承辦商跟咗警察入去火場入面之後,有冇能力去做到呢樣嘢。另外就係 25 話,喺管理處職員撤離管理處嘅時候,其實我哋係帶走咗兩本全苑嘅業主聯絡嘅 26 簿,去到社區會堂嘅時候,亦都即時同警察講,話我哋有呢兩本聯絡簿,睇下警察 27 有冇用,係,我哋並唔係因為火災而唔理大家囉,我哋冇囉,係。 28 杜淦堃資深大律師:駱小姐,我想講兩點,第一,即係你明白我哋嘅職責係嘗試重組當日發 29 生嘅事,同埋尋找個真相。所以琴日我哋都講得好清楚,都希望大家留意,我哋係 30 冇向你指出你嘅證供係唔正確或者係一個大話,而證人嘅證供唔吻合其實可能有好 31 多嘅理由,所以我哋嘅立場亦都唔係話喺你同埋羅先生個版本唔同嘅時候係一個大 32 話,咁我想--如果有人覺得可能有呢個理解,我想講出呢個理解係唔正確嘅。 33 第二件事,你嘅證供裏面都睇到,其實火警發生之後,你琴日都交代咗,你哋 34 係有盡力去協助通知啲居民嘅,呢一點我哋係留意到。 35 主席... 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第七天

13 本謄本由Epiq 編製 陸啟康法官:我諗未問問題之前,咁我諗我都想講幾句說話。其實我諗今次做呢個聽證會最 1 困難,或者調查,係情緒,因為今次呢件事我哋--實在對我哋好多人都好痛,亦都 2 係情緒,呢個係絕對可以理解,亦都係理所當然嘅。我哋都好希望藉住呢個聽證會 3 可以畀好多人可以講番佢心入面想講嘅嘢,解開我哋嘅心結。 4 但係我亦都好希望各位真係可以好--比較客觀同埋理性咁去對待所有嘅事,責 5 任有責任,但係都有啲人係付出咗好多嘅。所以我希望各位真係可以理性咁去看 6 待,同埋喺處理--我哋其實最怕就係一啲起底、公審,呢啲其實就係其中都係一個 7 原因我哋唔想網上直播嘅一個原因嚟嘅,呢個係一個--有個危險性喺度。 8 而今次呢件事情,我哋都睇得到係真係有呢個危險性喺度,咁我好希望即係各 9 位,我喺度再呼籲傳媒或者公眾,真係可以理性咁去儘量客觀去分析件事本身,而 10 係唔好過早對任何事情作出任何嘅睇法。譬如我尋日嘅睇法,都可能今日認為解釋 11 咗,譬如我尋日問點解要做,其實嗰個缸嗰度,其實原來佢哋個業主係一早已經決 12 定咗咁做。咁我哋個--要調查嘅方向就有少少唔同。所以其實大家一定要--我希望 13 各位可以好理性咁去,同埋唔好--對所有出席嘅人士都有一個尊重,同埋就--因為 14 我哋見譬如喺採訪嘅時間,有啲即係可能即係走幾條街或者--咁,咁我諗都希望大 15 家有少少--因為我諗對於任何出席聆訊嘅人都係一個相當之大嘅壓力嘅,咁亦都係 16 --我諗個個都有啲心結嘅,咁我諗希望大家都可以真係好理性咁去--係情緒可以理 17 解,但係希望各位真係可以理性咁去對待今次呢個聆訊。 18 咁但係你未走得住,咁而家我哋就到會--亦都係其他涉事方問問題嘅時間,咁 19 我諗相信富邦應該會最後,係咪?咁仲有冇其他涉事方會有其他問題? 20 孫靖乾資深大律師:主席同埋兩位委員,我都會有啲問題係會想問一問駱小姐。 21 陸啟康法官:你遲啲可唔可以? 22 譚俊傑大律師:我就大約五至十分鐘嘅問題嘅啫。 23 陸啟康法官:咁政府問先。 24 譚俊傑大律師:好。 25 孫靖乾資深大律師:好。 26 係,早晨,駱小姐,我係代表政府都係有一啲問題想同你去了解番同澄清番 27 嘅。咁首先我諗可能即係比較容易就睇番你嗰個證人供詞,咁我係就其中嘅一啲嘅 28 段落去問你澄清。咁第一,就係我想你睇一睇就係嗰個WS2 第1223 頁嘅。 29 駱倩盈女士:係。 30 孫靖乾資深大律師:係,呢度你喺--我哋可能1223 我哋去到下面9(b)嗰度,9(b)嗰 31 度你就話你都知道就係有一家係稱為呢個中華--我哋而家知道係一個中華發展公司 32 就係去協助嗰個宏業去處理呢個有關呢個宏福苑嗰個消防水缸嗰個工程嘅。咁你就 33 亦都有講,你就係喺宏業提供嘅文件中就知道佢個全名,你就話你唔係好清楚中華 34 發展喺嗰個大維修個工程裏面實際負責嘅工作,同埋你就同呢個中華發展就冇直接 35 嘅接觸,唔係--唔認識佢嘅員工嘅。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第七天

14 本謄本由Epiq 編製 咁呢度我就有少少問題想問一問番你嘅。第一樣嘢,就係我留意到就係其中都 1 係置邦嘅另外一位嘅同事就有做過一個證人供詞,如果我可能畀你睇一睇就係林文 2 欣先生佢個證人供詞,如果麻煩就係可能我哋去一去1217 頁,呢度就我喺呢度想 3 --上面17 段,最上面嗰度,1217 嗰度,咁呢度林文欣先生其實就有講過,就話 4 一般嚟講,喺第三行,就話宏泰,宏泰就係呢一個宏福苑係聘請佢做一個消防裝置 5 嘅年檢嘅一個承辦商,咁就話一般嚟講,宏泰佢提交嘅嗰啲消防裝置同埋設備嘅證 6 書會係一式兩份,一份就會提交過消防,一份就會存放喺嗰個管理處。咁我首先會 7 想問下,宏泰佢哋做嘅一啲嘅--向消防處去提交嗰啲咁樣嘅證書,即係譬如呢個 8 FS251,咁你係咪當時嚟講,你都會知道係有一份係存放咗喺管理處? 9 駱倩盈女士:宏泰消防嘅嘢,我就完全係冇接觸過同處理過嘅。 10 孫靖乾資深大律師:你完全冇接觸過,明白。如果係去番頭先你嗰個證人供詞,關於嗰個中 11 華嚟講,你會唔會知道會唔會係--即係你會唔會知道都好似宏泰咁,係會可能一式 12 兩份,如果佢有入過一啲嘢畀消防處,咁就可能會有一份喺管理處?定係話你其實 13 係唔知道個情況? 14 駱倩盈女士:我淨係知道宏業嘅職員會透過WhatsApp 提交一份嗰啲你哋講嘅消防設備關閉 15 通知書,即係有𢲩印、有日期嘅畀我哋,係,畀一個群組,個群組入面係有大維-- 16 有宏業、有鴻毅、有管理處喺度。 17 孫靖乾資深大律師:Okay,即係我諗我哋了解番先。宏泰嗰啲你就唔清楚? 18 駱倩盈女士:係。 19 孫靖乾資深大律師:但係如果係關於嗰個消防裝備個關閉通知書,即係我哋而家知道係由中 20 華發展去呈交嘅,咁就係應該係由嗰個宏業就會透過一個WhatsApp 嘅群組就會係 21 即係發畀你哋? 22 駱倩盈女士:係。 23 孫靖乾資深大律師:咁嗰個WhatsApp 群組你會唔會記得--你自己係咪嗰個WhatsApp 群 24 組裏面嘅其中一個成員? 25 駱倩盈女士:係。 26 孫靖乾資深大律師:係,仲會有啲咩嘢成員,嗰個WhatsApp 群組? 27 駱倩盈女士:鴻毅有三四個人,宏業最少都有四個人,跟住管理處就得我同黎經理嘅啫。 28 孫靖乾資深大律師:即係得你同埋黎經理,明白。 29 駱倩盈女士:黎經理,係,跟住就應該冇其他人。 30 孫靖乾資深大律師:係,咁或者我都問埋你,咁我哋都知道呢一個宏泰佢哋琴日同埋再之前 31 係作供嘅時候有提過,就有問過呢個管理處嘅鄭小姐,咁鄭小姐就唔喺嗰個 32 WhatsApp 群組裏面嘅? 33 駱倩盈女士:唔喺。 34 孫靖乾資深大律師:咁鄭小姐會唔會--據你所理解,佢會唔會知道其實係有一個咁樣嘅消防 35 裝置嗰個關閉通知書係曾經喺呢個群組裏面發過出嚟,有冇向佢提及過,或者佢會 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第七天

15 本謄本由Epiq 編製 唔會知道? 1 駱倩盈女士:我冇向鄭小姐提及過有呢樣嘢。 2 孫靖乾資深大律師:佢有冇向你提及過? 3 駱倩盈女士:但係有同過--即係因為其實個office 好細嘅啫,其實我淨係知道--可能我 4 喺收到所謂掛牌嗰張紙,即係通知書,咁我就會喺我自己個位度「我今日收到宏仁 5 閣嗰張關閉通知書嘞」咁樣,咁我唔會話特登同經理講定主任講,就係我會喺個位 6 度咁樣講出嚟。 7 孫靖乾資深大律師:所以你相信因為其實前後講緊有八座,你會即係--如果咁樣講公唔公 8 道,即係你會認為管理處嘅--大家坐喺同一個寫字樓嘅員工,即係包括鄭小姐佢應 9 該會知道管理處係曾經收過一啲咁樣嘅類型。 10 駱倩盈女士:會知道掛牌。 11 孫靖乾資深大律師:會知道掛牌? 12 駱倩盈女士:係嘞,但係掛牌嘅內容,鄭小姐應該係冇睇過,即係最好問番鄭小姐。 13 孫靖乾資深大律師:好,唔該晒。跟住我就想再問一問,頭先就係杜大律師就同你睇過一啲 14 文件,就都係講緊喺2025 年嘅3 月份左右係有啲會議,我都係跟番個時間即係同 15 你問一問。我就想你睇一睇,就應該係喺嗰個--我諗係應該去睇番呢個H1,跟住 16 係3,然後就係--你等一等。係,H1-3,我哋首先可能麻煩你去睇一睇第6076 17 頁,呢一個就係喺2025 年3 月15 號嗰個大維修工程進度會議,你會唔會記得其 18 實喺呢個時間,即係講緊3 月中嘅時間,亦都係同時間係呢個宏泰亦都喺3 月份就 19 係針對呢一個宏福苑係進行一啲年檢嘅工作? 20 駱倩盈女士:我本人冇留意宏泰幾時會喺屋苑做嘢。 21 孫靖乾資深大律師:如果你冇留意,你會唔會知道喺譬如管理處或者係置邦嚟講,有邊位同 22 事係會比較清楚關於宏泰嘅事情? 23 駱倩盈女士:工程主任同埋經理主任。 24 孫靖乾資深大律師:好,明白。 25 駱倩盈女士:我就係記得主要我睇到有張消防檢查嘅通告,我咪會知道。 26 孫靖乾資深大律師:可能我同你睇兩個文件,我再問一問你問題。而家呢個文件裏面,如果 27 我哋睇一睇,就係你去到第6077 頁,6077 頁如果你睇一睇第12 段,第12 段裏 28 面就有講過,就話係宏業表示就會去進行嗰個消防缸嘅防水工程,咁就嗰個施工嘅 29 時間大概就會係個半月呢度,即係講淨係針對消防缸嘅防水工程。然之後我同你再 30 睇多一個文件,就係下一個會議,就喺6079 頁,6079 頁就係即係過咗兩個星期 31 之後嘅一個星期六,咁係另一個大維修工程嘅進度會議,頭先杜大律師亦都有同你 32 睇過嘅,如果我哋望一望譬如第8 段,咁你就會睇到就係呢度都有講過,就係話宏 33 業係報告喺2025 年4 月7 號就會係進行呢個宏泰閣同埋宏志閣消防缸嘅防水工 34 程,而且就係話消防缸會暫停運作同埋會向消防處申請呢個掛牌嘅,咁你都見到 35 嘞? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第七天

16 本謄本由Epiq 編製 駱倩盈女士:係。 1 孫靖乾資深大律師:好,所以因為你就冇負責去聯絡呢個宏泰,咁如果我問你當時呢個管理 2 處有冇諗過既然呢個宏泰都做緊年檢,去徵詢下呢個宏泰對呢一方面有冇啲咩嘢意 3 見,或者覺得咁樣嘅安排係唔係合適,即係呢樣嘢應該或者都係唔係你負責? 4 駱倩盈女士:我冇考慮過呢樣嘢。 5 孫靖乾資深大律師:跟住我就想同你講一講你琴日嘅作供時候,就有講過係我哋叫做一啲 6 job order? 7 駱倩盈女士:係。 8 孫靖乾資深大律師:我諗我哋亦都唔使睇嗰個文件,因為你應該記得我哋琴日問過,就亦都 9 你有簽署過一啲嘅job order。你記得琴日杜資深大律師問你嘅時候,你有答過 10 就係話其實宏業係要求即係你哋係去協助即係可能嗰個天台消防水缸放水工程嘅時 11 候,呢樣嘢係唔係合理你就覺得應該都係留番畀嗰啲師傅佢哋自己去決定嘅? 12 駱倩盈女士:冇錯。 13 孫靖乾資深大律師:我就想純粹同你澄清下,如果根據你頭先--即係你琴日作供嘅時候個講 14 法,你頭先亦都確認咗係等啲師傅去決定,咁你去出嗰個job order 之前,你會 15 唔會有有同過譬如話羅師傅或者係另外一位就應該係李師傅,係有問過佢哋其實呢 16 個宏業方面有個咁樣嘅要求係唔係合理嘅呢?即係你出個job order 之前有冇同 17 佢哋問過或者溝通過,你記唔記得? 18 駱倩盈女士:我出--寫嗰張紙之前,我會有問過羅師傅,我就直接轉述,就係話「宏業張生 19 話下個」--我假設「下個禮拜二第3 座消防水缸想幫手褪水,你o 唔okay?」我 20 淨係咁樣問佢,佢就答我「Okay 嘅。」我咪覆番宏業張生「羅師傅話okay 喎, 21 咁到時大堂等喇。」咁當中我冇問過佢哋究竟要做啲乜,要幫手做啲乜,咁印象中 22 佢哋亦都冇問過我嗰日要幫手做啲乜,咁冇嘞。 23 孫靖乾資深大律師:好,明白。我亦都會想問你,當時嚟講,你會唔會知道其實嗰個消防水 24 缸其實都係我哋所謂嘅消防裝備嘅其中一種,你有冇呢方面嘅認知? 25 駱倩盈女士:我同意。 26 孫靖乾資深大律師:你同意嘅,係。可能如果係咁,我問一問你兩樣嘢。第一個就係--或者 27 我哋可能去睇一睇--請稍等。好,我就想同你睇一睇就係呢個B2 嘅文件冊,我想 28 同你睇睇一睇就係第177 頁嘅,呢個就係關於嗰個消防裝置同埋設備嘅規例,如果 29 左手面就係第7 條嗰度,第7 條你就見到佢有講話係消防裝置設備同埋設備嘅保 30 養、檢查同埋修理,咁喺嗰個第一小段嗰度就有咁講話「任何非註冊承辦商嘅人就 31 均不得保養、檢查或修理裝置,在任何處所內嘅任何消防裝置及設備」。咁我想問 32 當時嚟講,你會唔會知道其實喺即係有關呢個法例裏面係有一個咁樣嘅規定,即係 33 如果你唔係一個註冊承辦商嘅人,就唔可以去保養、檢查或者去修理一啲嘅消防裝 34 置? 35 駱倩盈女士:我冇睇過呢啲條文,係嘞,但係我本身係認同消防裝置應該係由註冊承辦商啲 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第七天

17 本謄本由Epiq 編製 人去處理。 1 孫靖乾資深大律師:我再同你睇多一樣嘢,然之後跟住我再問你一啲問題。另一個,物管局 2 其實有一個文件嘅,嗰個文件其實個英文嘅版本就而家已經喺我哋文件案係有㗎 3 嘞。係,呢個英文版本就應該係喺B2/2625 頁,好,你呢度會見到一份係物業管 4 理業監管局,我就咁簡稱就叫做即係「物管局」,呢度就係話一個關於(English 5 Spoken)一個咁樣嘅(English Spoken)嘅文件。其實我哋應該係有一個中 6 文嘅版本嘅,我想睇下我哋可唔可以--即係呢個中文版本似乎好似唔喺嗰個文件冊 7 裏面,但係呢個應該係一個公開文件。 8 主席,我了解可能嗰個中文版本我哋需要少少時間,可能我哋暫時而階段睇住 9 個英文版本先。 10 我哋可能去一去就係下一頁,2626 頁,呢度見到就係有個關於背景,然之後 11 我哋跟住再去就應該裏面有一個係--我睇一睇個頁數。我諗可能要再褪多去呢個 12 2630,係嘞,2630 頁--可能2631,唔該,2631。咁2631 裏面就我哋會見到 13 就係有一啲嘅(English Spoken),佢就會係用A(I)、A(II)等等嘅。然後 14 我就麻煩去到2632 頁,我哋就睇一睇嗰個A(III),其實我自己有個中文版本, 15 呢個就係英文版本,可能我讀一讀出嚟,如果需要嘅時候,我哋稍候再提供番個中 16 文版本。嗰個A(III)裏面就係咁樣寫嘅,個中文版本就係話「根據消防裝置及設 17 備規例第95B 章第7(1)條,任何非註冊承辦商的人,均不得保養、檢查或修理裝 18 置在任何處所內的任何消防裝置或設備,因此持牌物管公司、業主組織及業主需委 19 聘註冊承辦商保養、檢查或修理物業公用部分的消防裝置及設備。」我呢度就想問 20 一問你,就可能係兩三個問題。 21 即係第一個,就係當時宏業佢提出就想你哋去幫手係針對嗰個消防水缸去做嗰 22 個放水嘅一啲工序嘅時候,第一樣嘢,你有冇去問過譬如宏業佢本身,或者佢係唔 23 係會搵一個都係呢啲頭先我所講一啲嘅註冊承辦商去進行嗰個消防水缸嘅工程,即 24 係有冇同佢查詢過? 25 駱倩盈女士:冇。 26 孫靖乾資深大律師:第二樣嘢,有冇當時係有諗過,如果要做到關於消防水缸嗰個放水嘅時 27 候,會唔會未必適合係由管理處嘅同事去做,可能都應該係要搵番呢啲咁樣嘅承辦 28 商去做,有冇咁樣諗過? 29 駱倩盈女士:冇。 30 孫靖乾資深大律師:冇嘅,係。好,跟住就我想問一問,就係頭先你講過,就係你哋會有個 31 WhatsApp 嘅群組,就會收到係宏福苑嗰八座前後嘅一啲即係都係消防裝置關閉嘅 32 通知書,我想問你哋呢啲咁嘅通知書,你哋話WhatsApp 收到,你印象中有冇即係 33 亦都係有一啲直情打印咗出嚟,或者有啲副本你哋係即係擺喺個管理處嗰度,即係 34 除咗WhatsApp,有冇即係譬如話係列印咗出嚟,或者係有去存檔等等嘅呢? 35 駱倩盈女士:我冇列印過出嚟,同事我就唔知。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第七天

18 本謄本由Epiq 編製 孫靖乾資深大律師:好,請你等一等。主席,可能我睇下仲有冇其他嘅問題。 1 駱小姐,我就想問一問你,即係如果係你頭先提到嗰啲WhatsApp,係唔係印 2 象中好似應該未喺今次嗰個聽證會裏面披露㗎,定係你會唔會知道? 3 駱倩盈女士:應該冇披露過。 4 孫靖乾資深大律師:你會唔會即係可以或者願意去搵番嗰啲有關嘅WhatsApp,睇下可唔可 5 以係都披露到出嚟,即係畀呢個獨立委員會去睇嘅呢? 6 駱倩盈女士:可以,可以。 7 孫靖乾資深大律師:好。 8 駱倩盈女士:不過因為當中涉及有好多跟進過個別單位嘅嘢,可能涉及一啲住戶嘅私人資 9 料,所以... 10 孫靖乾資深大律師:可能淨係即係需要嘅時候...(聽不清) 11 駱倩盈女士:我覺得你哋睇情況去公開出嚟。 12 孫靖乾資深大律師:...(聽不清)獨立委員會嘅代表大律師再去跟進。 13 陸啟康法官:我諗你可以同置邦嘅代表律師可以跟進呢個問題。 14 孫靖乾資深大律師:好,我哋都可以跟進。我就再有少少問題再問一問你,第一個,就係我 15 想你睇睇R1/第78 頁嘅。呢度係其中一個嘅例子,我哋見到就係有一個嘅消防裝 16 置嘅關閉通告嘅,呢度係--而家呢一張我哋睇到就係喺2025 年4 月7 號至2025 17 年4 月20 號,就係進行呢個消防裝置嘅保養,咁個承辦商嘅名稱就係「中華發 18 展」,亦都有聯絡電話,下面就係寫住關於個消防栓同喉轆系統。我想問一問你, 19 呢啲咁樣嘅通告你會唔會--係邊個負責去黏呢啲通告?都係呢個管理處? 20 駱倩盈女士:唔係,如果係關於宏業嗰啲,係宏業安排去黏嘅。 21 孫靖乾資深大律師:Okay,即係宏業佢安排去黏嘅。咁宏業安排去黏呢啲通告嘅時候,佢哋 22 會唔會都即係通知管理處,就話佢係黏咗啲通告或者喺咩嘢地方去黏呢啲通告? 23 駱倩盈女士:宏業黏通告之前就必須得到鴻毅同埋法團嘅批准,過咗目先始終,任何通告 24 喇,我唔針對呢張黃色嘅通告。 25 孫靖乾資深大律師:係,係。 26 駱倩盈女士:咁得到佢哋嘅同意之後,佢哋就會有職員拎嗰張通告入嚟管理處,喺張通告上 27 面𢲩一個管理處嘅圓印仔,宏業先可以將嗰張𢲩咗圓印仔嘅通告黏出去大堂。 28 孫靖乾資深大律師:我想問一問就係幾樣嘢,第一,就係有冇問過話呢啲通告係唔係應該由 29 其實係由譬如中華發展呢間公司,即係我哋見到個承辦商係去張貼嘅呢?或者有冇 30 嘗試去即係聯絡下中華發展呢個承辦商,去了解一下個情況呢? 31 駱倩盈女士:我從嚟都冇接觸過中華發展,咁但係因為通常--呢張通告我有見過嘅,亦都係 32 經WhatsApp,宏業嘅職員send 過出嚟。咁我印象中,我有問過佢一次嘅,就係 33 話「呢張嘢你哋係唔係會搵人黐番喺呢度?」佢話「係。」咁我亦都有曾經問過 34 「會黐喺邊呀?」「黐番喺個水缸囉」咁樣,佢咁樣答咗我,我就不以為意,咁就 35 冇再去睇究竟佢係唔係真係黐咗喺水缸,又或者去了解番呢張通告其實要黐喺邊個 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第七天

19 本謄本由Epiq 編製 位置。 1 孫靖乾資深大律師:即係你頭先就係話你問過一次,佢哋就話會黐喺水缸,但係你就唔知道 2 實際上佢係黐喺邊度或者係唔係真係黐喺個水缸個位置? 3 駱倩盈女士:係,冇錯。 4 孫靖乾資深大律師:呢個咁樣嘅通告,當時你嘅理解,你有冇一個認知就係其實呢個係要話 5 畀嗰啲居民知會係閂咗一啲相關嘅消防裝置? 6 駱倩盈女士:我冇了解過。 7 孫靖乾資深大律師:咁如果你話嗰個通告係由宏業黏咗喺個水缸嗰度,其實水缸你意思,即 8 係譬如就係喺天面嗰個水缸,咁其實一般情況即係話啲居民都唔會去到嗰個地方個 9 喎? 10 駱倩盈女士:唔。 11 孫靖乾資深大律師:咁喺其他當眼,譬如話係大廈大堂等等,就冇貼過呢啲咁嘅通告? 12 駱倩盈女士:呢張冇,但係頭先我亦都有講過,我哋管理處係有出過通告,就係話因應個消 13 防水缸冇咗水,所以喺單數嘅樓層擺咗滅火筒。 14 孫靖乾資深大律師:明白。 15 駱倩盈女士:係有一張咁嘅通告,另外本身宏業都會有一張通告,就係話--個標題係點寫-- 16 總之都係話消防水缸維修咁樣,都有咁嘅通告。 17 孫靖乾資深大律師:我就想再問埋,咁嗰啲通告就會係張貼喺--即係頭先你講嗰類型嘅通告 18 就會張貼喺大堂? 19 駱倩盈女士:係,地下大堂。 20 孫靖乾資深大律師:即係每一座宏福苑,八座嘅地下大堂? 21 駱倩盈女士:係。 22 孫靖乾資深大律師:嗰個張貼時間你會唔會記得--我哋見到最早有啲就其中可能喺4 月份已 23 經開始,你會唔會記得係唔係即係如果佢開始有關嘅工程,一路係張貼到譬如話嗰 24 個2025 年11 月定係乜嘢嘅情況呢? 25 駱倩盈女士:我冇留意張通告會黐幾耐。 26 孫靖乾資深大律師:如果係咁,我可能最後一個問題同你澄清番,就想番你嗰個證人供詞 27 WS2/1226 頁,喺第15 段裏面,你就有講過話你係有睇過由宏業提供嘅中華發展 28 喺2025 年4 月7 號至到11 月期間向消防處發出一啲嘅消防裝置關閉通知書,但 29 係你唔係好肯定睇到啲通知書嗰個確實時間。根據你頭先所講,第一,就應該你收 30 到呢啲通知書嘅方式就係通過頭先講嗰個WhatsApp 嘅群組? 31 駱倩盈女士:係。 32 孫靖乾資深大律師:你會唔會記得收到嘅時間,即係譬如如果嗰個裝置關閉通知書係某一個 33 日子嘅,咁會係喺大概乜嘢時間,即係譬如話同一日,又或者可能係好快,即係譬 34 如幾日內係會通過個WhatsApp 群組去收到嗰個通知書,大概個時間相隔係幾耐同 35 佢原本嘅日期? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第七天

20 本謄本由Epiq 編製 駱倩盈女士:我諗我都係要睇番啲對話紀錄先可以答到。 1 孫靖乾資深大律師:好,唔該晒你,我冇其他問題。 2 陸啟康法官:唔該。譚大律師。 3 譚俊傑大律師:主席,我見到個時間,但係我絶對樂意可以問埋啲問題,因為唔係好長。 4 陸啟康法官:...(聽不清) 5 譚俊傑大律師:首先,我係想--駱小姐,我係代表居民嘅,我想你睇睇I1-4/8756 頁,呢 6 個係一個電郵嚟嘅,我首先想問,你見到副本抄送有一個係「(English 7 Spoken)」,你見唔見到? 8 駱倩盈女士:見到。 9 譚俊傑大律師:請問你係見唔見到--你係有冇可以睇到呢一個電郵箱? 10 駱倩盈女士:我會睇到。 11 譚俊傑大律師:你會睇到嘅,係咪?呢個係2025 年1 月17 號嘅,我相信係關於投訴一啲 12 窗眉或者係啲冷氣機台縮短嘅問題,因為如果你睇睇當天下面嗰個電郵係都有講過 13 啲投訴嘅內容,喺8757,我哋好快睇一睇。就咁望一望,係關於窗楣暴露鋼筋咁 14 嘅投訴,係咪? 15 駱倩盈女士:係。 16 譚俊傑大律師:我哋返番去8756,我見到其實實際--呢度就係獨立調查組嘅劉嘉敏小姐就 17 寫咗畀鴻毅,就係話獨立調查組係希望喺禮拜一或者禮拜二嘅晏晝係去實地視察, 18 到最後你記唔記得係唔係禮拜二去咗? 19 駱倩盈女士:唔可以好肯定。 20 譚俊傑大律師:好,唔緊要。或者我哋好快咁--我相信唔會有爭議,因為古小平先生喺佢自 21 己嘅證供就係WS1/678,你睇睇14 段,呢個係古先生嘅供詞。第14 段佢都講到 22 喺2025 年1 月21 號佢與劉小姐同埋李先生去咗做一個實地視察,你見到嘛? 23 駱倩盈女士:唔。 24 譚俊傑大律師:係,見到,好。即係其實呢一次就應該係一個四天嘅通知,係咪?我哋返番 25 去8756,1 月17 號下午5 點46 分,你就收到呢個電郵,係咪? 26 駱倩盈女士:係。 27 譚俊傑大律師:係,好,咁我想畀多另外一個例子,因為其實我淨係會問一啲ISS 呢個電郵 28 都收到嘅一啲嘅資訊,就係8760 頁,呢一個就係一個2025 年5 月29 號,即係 29 另外一次,駱小姐。 30 駱倩盈女士:係。 31 譚俊傑大律師:又係劉嘉敏小姐,今次就淨係寫咗畀鴻毅同埋ISS 嘅,你見到就係話佢哋會 32 喺6 月3 號上晝十點半就會有一個嘅實地視察,係咪? 33 駱倩盈女士:係。 34 譚俊傑大律師:咁我亦都想問下,其實以你所知,即係你2024 年8 月至到大火當時,其實 35 過往,以你所知得架嘞,獨立調查組係通常會畀一個幾耐嘅通知鴻毅呢個會嚟實地 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第七天

21 本謄本由Epiq 編製 視察?請問。 1 駱倩盈女士:好,第一樣嘢,其實通常收到呢啲咁嘅電郵,我見到個標題(English 2 Spoken )嗰度,其實我唔會好仔細咁樣睇個內容,我只會叫經理,ICU 有 3 email,咁叫佢睇嘅啫。 4 譚俊傑大律師:係。 5 駱倩盈女士:係,另外第二樣嘢,就係話你話通常ICU 嚟屋苑會提早幾耐通知,你撇除呢兩 6 個電郵,其實喺我記憶所及,喺工程會議入面,好多時鴻毅出席嘅職員都會講話 7 「我下個禮拜約咗Amanda。」即係可能就係呢個姓劉嘅女士嚟屋苑睇嘢咁樣,跟 8 住--其實都講過幾次,咁你話佢嚟睇啲咩嘢呢?佢冇仔細咁講,淨係話佢都成日同 9 Amanda 保持聯絡咁樣,亦都真係發生過會提早幾日,我諗幾日,可能禮拜六開完 10 會,「我下個禮拜約咗Amanda 咁樣嚟屋苑。」但係究竟呢個政府部門嚟幾多次屋 11 苑,我哋冇紀錄。 12 譚俊傑大律師:明白。我冇其他問題。 13 陸啟康法官:唔該。 14 柯愷欣大律師:委員會,唔好意思,因為頭先聽到政府嘅孫大律師提及過有--駱小姐提及過 15 有兩張通告嘅,咁嗰兩張通告係關於呢一個樓層放置滅火筒嗰個事宜,似乎喺我哋 16 而家嘅嗰啲(English Spoken)嗰度沒有嘅,但係我代表嘅呢一個第二屆嗰個 17 IO,其實我哋係有兩張咁樣嘅通告,唔知會唔會可以協助到委員會,如果我哋可以 18 將呢張通告去畀駱小姐睇一睇,去確認呢一張通告係唔係就係駱小姐口頭上面提及 19 嘅嗰一張通告呢? 20 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋冇反對。 21 陸啟康法官:可以。 22 柯愷欣大律師:或者可能都因為嗰個IT 方面要有少少嘅... 23 陸啟康法官:不如我哋而家就早休,我諗變咗亦都可以置邦嗰面個律師有啲時間準備個問 24 題,或者我等呢個時間十分鐘,你可以安排呢一樣嘢,好唔好? 25 柯愷欣大律師:好,好。 26 陸啟康法官:我哋而家正式休息十分鐘。 27

28 11 時21 分聆訊押後 29 11 時33 分聆訊恢復 30

31 孫靖乾資深大律師:主席、兩位委員,頭先小休之後我哋同柯大律師就係溝通過,就係話我 32 哋應該可能仲有一兩個問題我哋發覺可能係需要同駱小姐再去澄清一下,柯大律師 33 都即係同意可以畀我問咗嗰啲問題先,咁去再繼續,係。 34 陸啟康法官:我哋一路調查個過程之中,我哋其實真係發覺都有好多嘢要跟進嘅,呢個我哋 35 都可以理解。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第七天

22 本謄本由Epiq 編製 孫靖乾資深大律師:係,唔該晒。 1 陸啟康法官:所以我哋一啲嘅所謂(English Spoken),即係有啲彈性去處理嘅。 2 孫靖乾資深大律師:係,明白。駱小姐,其實都係有兩個問題。第一個問題,我就係想問一 3 問你,你就頭先亦都講過話你係知道係有一啲消防裝置嘅關閉通知書嘅,我就想針 4 對呢樣嘢就想問一問,管理處首先有冇係針對一啲管理處嘅員工,包括可能係一啲 5 每一座嘅座頭係同佢哋去解釋咗就係有關嗰個消防裝置,包括譬如話嗰個消防喉轆 6 其實係閂咗或者唔會有水㗎嘞,呢個佢哋會唔會係清楚,之前有冇同佢哋交代過, 7 解釋過畀佢哋知? 8 駱倩盈女士:有講過嘅,但係我本人唔係每一個講,我又係打張紙,一張非正式嘅通告,一 9 張memo 紙。因為點解我會咁講呢?就係話因為佢喺單嘅數樓層嘅細水錶房入面放 10 咗滅火筒,咁我就要求同事,係嘞,我會突擊叫同事去check 每一支滅火筒究竟 11 喺唔喺度。亦都會同--啊,因為而家消防水泵冇水,所以要擺滅火筒喺度,咁樣 12 囉。即係好簡單講,你話好詳細咁解釋,我係冇嘅。 13 孫靖乾資深大律師:明白,明白,其實我問個問題個原因最主要係想睇下即係當時火災嘅時 14 候,置邦嗰啲嘅員工係咪已經預先係知道咗譬如其實個消防喉轆係冇水嘅,佢哋就 15 唔需要嘥時間即係嘗試去操作消防喉轆。所以我就問你即係有冇呢方面嘅即係預先 16 同嗰個員工講咗? 17 駱倩盈女士:有。 18 孫靖乾資深大律師:第二,就係如果係針對居民方面,就主要應該係靠頭先你講嘅通知易, 19 我相信應該稍候柯大律師就會將有關嘅文件就會畀你睇嘅,係咪呀? 20 駱倩盈女士:係。 21 孫靖乾資深大律師:除咗個通知之外,有冇用其他嘅譬如話係用其他方式係話過畀居民知嘅 22 呢? 23 駱倩盈女士:印象中就冇。 24 孫靖乾資深大律師:好,最後就要問埋你,就係頭先我哋講到係關於嗰個消防裝置,我同你 25 睇過一啲有關嘅法例嘅條文,亦都有睇過呢個物業管理嗰個,即係物管局有啲嘅 26 Code of Conduct,係,我亦都想問一問,據你當時所知,除咗呢啲譬如話有關 27 嘅條例或者物管局嘅一啲嘅Code of Conduct 之外,你哋喺嗰個管理處裏面, 28 如果係要牽涉到處理一啲消防裝置嘅時候,有冇話係有一啲流程或者係有啲嘅做 29 法,你哋係需要去做,即係喺個管理公司裏面或者喺個管理處裏面。即係有冇話如 30 果係逢係針對一啲消防裝置嘅事宜嘅時候,咁有一個指引或者有個流程話要點樣做 31 㗎? 32 駱倩盈女士:唔明,唔明白你嘅問題。 33 孫靖乾資深大律師:唔係咁明白。即係譬如如果有牽涉到有任何嘅情況,話譬如如果你要睇 34 一睇某啲消防裝置或者譬如話要去睇下嗰個--或者要去驗下嗰個譬如消防水缸,又 35 或者嗰個消防嘅譬如話加壓泵房裏面嘅一啲掣呀等等。有冇任何關於呢啲咁嘅消防 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第七天

23 本謄本由Epiq 編製 裝置,如果係要去針對佢哋去進行任何嘅程序,個流程應該點呀?係咪需要預先係 1 問過一啲嘅承辦商呀?即係呢一方面我想問有冇係公司有出過一啲嘅指引,或者係 2 同你講過話如果咁嘅情況你哋應該點做? 3 駱倩盈女士:會有嘅,但係唔會話好詳細,只會一個類似聯絡表嘅嘢,即係可能如果譬如韞 4 𨋢,你要打電話畀邊間公司嘅邊一個,如果係消防嘅嘢你要打畀邊一個承辦商,因 5 為有時唔係辦公時間嘅,咁保安同事就唔會聯絡到我哋,我哋喺度嘅辦公時間,佢 6 哋就會聯絡我哋喇,即係聯絡寫字樓職員或者工程主任。 7 孫靖乾資深大律師:明白。 8 駱倩盈女士:係嘞,如果係非辦公時間,真係冇文職人員喺度嘅,其實佢哋會有個聯絡表。 9 孫靖乾資深大律師:唔,明白,好,咁唔該晒。 10 駱倩盈女士:就唔會自己去鬥呢個。 11 孫靖乾資深大律師:好,唔該晒主席,,唔該晒兩位委員。 12 陸啟康法官:柯大律師。 13

14 柯愷欣大律師:係,主席,兩位委員,多謝委員會畀嘅時間。駱小姐,我係代表呢個第二任 15 嘅第十二屆管理委員會嘅,咁想畀張通告你睇一睇。係,請問你見唔見到呢張通告 16 呀? 17 駱倩盈女士:見到。 18 柯愷欣大律師:呢張通告個日期係2025 年4 月3 號,我代表嘅第二任IO 我簡稱。 19 駱倩盈女士:係。 20 柯愷欣大律師:咁去到呢度淨係搵到兩張通告嘅啫。 21 駱倩盈女士:唔。 22 柯愷欣大律師:咁但係我相信可能呢一張通告本身係置邦興業嗰邊出嚟㗎喇。 23 駱倩盈女士:係。 24 柯愷欣大律師:咁呢一張通告會唔會就係剛才你提及嘅個嗰一張通告,係擺放滅火筒嗰張 25 呀? 26 駱倩盈女士:係,係。 27 柯愷欣大律師:係。咁呢一張就係其中嘅一張通告喇,咁就係放喺應該宏志閣嘅。 28 駱倩盈女士:唔。 29 柯愷欣大律師:另外,仲有一張通告嘅。呢張都同樣係2025 年4 月3 日嘅。 30 駱倩盈女士:係。 31 柯愷欣大律師:呢張我見到應該係放喺宏泰閣,係咪呀? 32 駱倩盈女士:係。 33 柯愷欣大律師:我哋淨係搵到呢兩張通告啫。但係你會唔會可以話到畀我哋聽,當時你有冇 34 印象呢兩張通告係放喺大廈嘅咩嘢位置㗎? 35 駱倩盈女士:地下大堂。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第七天

24 本謄本由Epiq 編製 柯愷欣大律師:地下大堂,咁係地下大堂--具體少少咩嘢位置,講唔講到畀我哋聽? 1 駱倩盈女士:如果係呢類型嘅通告,你話當時好肯定放嘅位置,我真係唔會答到,但係如果 2 而家呢一刻宏福苑要出呢張通告嘅話,係會黏喺𨋢嘅撳手,𨋢嘅撳手,即係地下大 3 堂Ground Floor 有三部𨋢嘅,𨋢,一埲牆,𨋢,一埲牆,𨋢,一埲牆,就會黏 4 喺𨋢與𨋢之間嗰埲牆嘅其中一埲牆。 5 柯愷欣大律師:明白。唔該晒你,我沒有其他問題。 6 駱倩盈女士:唔。 7 陸啟康法官:我想問下柯大律師,你呢兩張通告會用咩嘢方式擺入去個bundle?如果冇嘅 8 話,係咪我哋將佢mark 咗做頭先--有冇辦法係mark exhibit 呀? 9 柯愷欣大律師:或者可能mark 咗做(English Spoken)先,我哋稍候會提供番畀委員 10 會。 11 陸啟康法官:好唔好呀? 12 杜淦堃資深大律師:或者,主席,我哋同柯大律師一方傾一傾或者就咁躉喺其中一個 13 Bundle 度可能會方便啲。 14 陸啟康法官:Okay,唔該。 15 柯愷欣大律師:唔該。 16 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋處理。 17 陸啟康法官:係。跟住係置邦嘅大律師。 18 許偉強資深大律師:係,主席,兩位委員,我哋呢邊係冇覆問嘅。 19 陸啟康法官:冇覆問。 20 許偉強資深大律師:係,就至於剛才孫大律師有同駱小姐提過,會唔會有啲其他嘅通訊紀錄 21 可以提交,駱小姐亦都係表示願意嘅,喺呢方面,我相信個流程將會係--如果係有 22 需要嘅話,我哋會將呢啲文件直接係交畀委員會律師嗰邊,佢哋處理咗啲文件之 23 後,就會向其他涉事方作出適當嘅安排,唔該。 24 陸啟康法官:唔該晒大律師。 25 杜淦堃資深大律師:主席,我哋有一條問題想同駱小姐駱小姐澄清一下嘅啫。如果睇番 26 Bundle R1/78 頁,駱小姐,頭先你睇過孫大律師畀你睇呢張通告,你頭先似乎 27 係講到話呢個會貼喺嗰個天台嗰度,係咪? 28 駱倩盈女士:當時宏業職員係咁樣答我。 29 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,因為證據顯示第五日聽證會有位居民叫做羅德沛,佢喺當日,我畀 30 呢張通告佢睇嘅時候,佢話佢哋有收過嘅啲居民。你除咗張貼喺--你嘅記憶係除咗 31 張貼喺天台嗰度,其實係咪都係有第二啲方法將呢啲通告畀啲居民知道嘅呢?你記 32 唔記得? 33 駱倩盈女士:喺我哋管理處嘅操作入面,我哋冇貼過呢張通告。至於居民喺咩嘢途徑見過呢 34 張通告呢,我就真係唔知。 35 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔該晒你,冇其他問題。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第七天

25 本謄本由Epiq 編製 陸啟康法官:好,唔該晒,駱小姐,多謝你出席。 1 駱倩盈女士:唔該。 2

3 11 時42 分置邦興業有限公司文員證人駱倩盈女士作供完畢 4 11 時43 分置邦興業有限公司管理員證人鍾瑞霞女士開始作供 5

6 杜淦堃資深大律師:主席、兩位委員,下一位嚟協助我哋嘅人係鍾瑞霞女士。鍾女士,你 7 好。 8 鍾瑞霞女士:你好,早晨。 9 杜淦堃資深大律師:麻煩你可以企一企起身讀一讀你面前嗰份聲明。 10 鍾瑞霞女士:係。本人鍾瑞霞聲明,本人所作的證供,盡本人所知、所悉及所信,均屬真 11 實。 12 杜淦堃資深大律師:麻煩你,鍾女士,可以坐低。 13 陸啟康法官:鍾女士,你係有啲緊張,係咪呀? 14 鍾瑞霞女士:係。 15 陸啟康法官:但係唔緊要嘅,你放鬆,即係我哋想聽番件事本身嘅啫,所以你唔使咁擔心 16 嘅,總之你盡你所知講番件事出嚟畀我哋聽就得㗎嘞。 17 杜淦堃資深大律師:鍾女士,我都可以同你講我睇完你哋嘅證供之後,其實我哋最主要係想 18 問番你火警當日你所見到嘅一啲嘢。 19 鍾瑞霞女士:係。 20 杜淦堃資深大律師:你唔使擔心我哋冇咩嘢特別嘅事情係覺得--就睇到嘅證據係覺得你做錯 21 嘢,我係想知道你見到同睇到啲乜嘢嘅啫,好唔好呀? 22 鍾瑞霞女士:明白,好。 23 杜淦堃資深大律師:所以你放心回答我哋嘅問題。 24 鍾瑞霞女士:係。 25 杜淦堃資深大律師:你畀咗兩份證供,一份係你代表你公司嘅律師畀委員會嘅一份證人供 26 詞。 27 鍾瑞霞女士:係。 28 杜淦堃資深大律師:相信你睇過? 29 鍾瑞霞女士:睇過。 30 杜淦堃資深大律師:之前你都喺警方度落咗份口供嘅? 31 鍾瑞霞女士:係。 32 杜淦堃資深大律師:我都相信你會可以確認就係你兩份嘅內容都係真實同埋準確嘅,係咪? 33 鍾瑞霞女士:係。 34 杜淦堃資深大律師:好嘞,我知道你係喺宏福苑做保安員,亦都叫做「座頭」,係咪? 35 鍾瑞霞女士:係。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第七天

26 本謄本由Epiq 編製 杜淦堃資深大律師:你係由2010 年5 月到火災當日都係宏昌閣日間嘅座頭嚟㗎,係咪? 1 鍾瑞霞女士:係。 2 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想問一問你,你喺大堂坐嘅位置睇唔睇到嗰個閣路電視㗎,個CCTV 3 㗎? 4 鍾瑞霞女士:座頭嗰度有嘅。 5 杜淦堃資深大律師:有嘅。 6 鍾瑞霞女士:喺單車位同埋--係嘞,嗰個𨋢嘅--係,三部𨋢嘅CCTV 都睇到,係。 7 杜淦堃資深大律師:係嘞,唔。所以你--火警嘅時候你--發現火警嘅時候,你係喺個座頭度 8 㗎,係咪? 9 鍾瑞霞女士:係。 10 杜淦堃資深大律師:我都想問一問你就係當時發現火警嘅經過,但係講呢樣嘢之前,可唔可 11 以麻煩你講兩樣嘢畀我哋聽,你巡邏嘅時候係有行樓梯㗎嘛,係咪? 12 鍾瑞霞女士:係。 13 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,我想問下你行樓梯嘅時候,維修嗰陣你應該知道其實開咗一啲我哋 14 叫做「生口」嘅。 15 鍾瑞霞女士:係。 16 杜淦堃資深大律師:啲工人喺度出出入入嘅? 17 鍾瑞霞女士:係。 18 杜淦堃資深大律師:公司有冇畀任何指示你哋對於嗰啲生口,你哋要留意啲乜嘢?或者有咩 19 嘢要處理㗎? 20 鍾瑞霞女士:冇。 21 杜淦堃資深大律師:因為置邦有一個講法,你哋--有指示過你哋就係話如果個生口未上鎖 22 呢,喺基於保安嘅理由,其實有時係要鎖番佢嘅。 23 鍾瑞霞女士:呢個有,係。 24 杜淦堃資深大律師:係嘞,收工嘅時候會咁做,係咪呀啲工人? 25 鍾瑞霞女士:係嘞。 26 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白。另外一樣嘢,我都想問下你,就係你都聽過好多居民就擔心發泡 27 膠呢一樣嘢喇,係咪? 28 鍾瑞霞女士:係。 29 杜淦堃資深大律師:黐住啲窗嗰啲呢。 30 鍾瑞霞女士:係。 31 杜淦堃資深大律師:係嘞,你講唔講到畀我哋聽,就你工作嘅宏昌閣而言。幾時上㗎啲發泡 32 膠,幾時黐架? 33 鍾瑞霞女士:大概係搭完棚之後囉,即係9 月、10 月,大概係嗰個時候。 34 杜淦堃資深大律師:2024,係咪? 35 鍾瑞霞女士:係嘞,係嘞。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第七天

27 本謄本由Epiq 編製 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想問個火警當日,係啲發泡膠仲係黐住晒吖,定係有啲拆咗,定係 1 點? 2 鍾瑞霞女士:聽嗰啲居民,佢就話好少部分,佢話佢嗰度拆咗,大部分都話未拆咁樣囉。 3 杜淦堃資深大律師:另外,想問下你喺大維修期間,我哋都聽到有啲居民話有工人食煙呢一 4 個問題,你自己有冇留意到啲工人食煙呀? 5 鍾瑞霞女士:我睇唔到,但係曾經有一次係佢哋收工落到嚟大堂呢,就見到有一個工人喺個 6 口就係--係嘞,含住一支煙嘅。我第一時間就話畀佢聽「唔可以,喂,唔可以食煙 7 喎」咁樣囉,佢話窒番我話「冇點著,阿姐」咁樣囉,係嘞。 8 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔,咁我想問下你巡邏嘅時候有冇發覺有煙頭呢地下有時? 9 鍾瑞霞女士:唔多覺。 10 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔,我想問你另外一樣嘢,就係嗰啲建築材料或者廢物,你巡邏嘅時 11 候,喺附近有冇見到都擺放咗好多建築嗰啲材料或者有好多垃圾? 12 鍾瑞霞女士:垃圾,佢哋開緊工嗰陣時都會有啲,但係佢哋--如果下晝我巡樓就見到佢哋會 13 喺度清垃圾咁樣囉,係嘞,嗰啲建築材料地下係有嘅,因為佢哋預備材料嗰啲。 14 杜淦堃資深大律師:啲居民有冇同你投訴? 15 鍾瑞霞女士:印象中唔--冇乜--冇乜投訴話啲垃圾點樣樣喎,係嘞,咁樣囉。 16 杜淦堃資深大律師:有啲居民話見過喺啲樓梯生口附近有陣時有啲水樽,裏面有啲煙頭,應 17 該有人食完煙抌落去,呢個你有冇見過? 18 鍾瑞霞女士:我又冇見過,記得都冇人同我咁樣講。 19 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白。我想問你另外一樣嘢,你知道宏昌閣呢,你巡邏嘅時候,你亦都 20 喺嗰度做咗咁耐,你知道有四個天井位嘅,或者光井位嘅。 21 鍾瑞霞女士:係,係。 22 杜淦堃資深大律師:有個平台喇。 23 鍾瑞霞女士:係。 24 杜淦堃資深大律師:而有個鐵閘喺外面欄住嘅。 25 鍾瑞霞女士:係。 26 杜淦堃資深大律師:係嘞,你巡邏嘅時候有冇望下嗰一度嘅情況㗎,維修緊嗰陣? 27 鍾瑞霞女士:望到㗎,因為喺樓梯嗰度佢有個玻璃窗,就係嗰個望到,其他望唔到。 28 杜淦堃資深大律師:係呀,我想問下嗰個閘係平時鎖住㗎,係咪呀? 29 鍾瑞霞女士:係。 30 杜淦堃資深大律師:你有冇鎖匙㗎? 31 鍾瑞霞女士:我有,喺座頭嗰度。 32 杜淦堃資深大律師:座頭有鎖匙。 33 鍾瑞霞女士:係。 34 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想問下你,你望到嘅時候,你見唔見到個光井位嗰個情況?因為有啲 35 人話就其實都幾亂,有啲廢物呀,有啲人就話有工人喺度食煙,有啲就話--甚至乎 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第七天

28 本謄本由Epiq 編製 話有啲工人喺嗰度煮食。 1 鍾瑞霞女士:未見過。 2 杜淦堃資深大律師:你見到啲乜嘢? 3 鍾瑞霞女士:未見講過,係。 4 杜淦堃資深大律師:未見--你未見過乜嘢呀? 5 鍾瑞霞女士:即係你頭先講嗰啲囉,係嘞。 6 杜淦堃資深大律師:建築廢... 7 鍾瑞霞女士:建築個垃圾行嗰度過都唔係好多,即係話少少喇,嗰啲「滅仔」呀咁有時或者 8 會... 9 杜淦堃資深大律師:嗰啲咩嘢話? 10 鍾瑞霞女士:滅仔呀。 11 杜淦堃資深大律師:哦,即係綁住啲竹棚嗰啲。 12 鍾瑞霞女士:係囉,因為佢有--係嘞,嗰啲咁樣遮住就--係嘞,同埋係囉,係嘞,係嘞,嗰 13 啲玻璃窗呢,佢就唔係睇得好清楚嘅,因為佢係有花紋嘅,唔係睇得好清楚嘅,係 14 嘞。 15 杜淦堃資深大律師:你冇喺外面望上去過?你都... 16 鍾瑞霞女士:外面望唔到嘅。 17 杜淦堃資深大律師:係。我想問下你,我哋同委員會去過宏福苑之後--火災之後,我哋都見 18 過其實係有啲竹棚做嘅樓梯係可以畀啲工人喺外面行上去嗰個天井嗰度嘅,你有冇 19 見過呢樣嘢? 20 鍾瑞霞女士:但係佢個樓梯係咪通上天井嗰度,我唔知,但係佢嗰度係有條樓梯出大廈門口 21 嘅左手邊嗰度係有條樓梯上。 22 杜淦堃資深大律師:你講緊呢個係大廈嘅一部分嚟嘅,室內嘅樓梯嚟㗎,係咪呀? 23 鍾瑞霞女士:室外。 24 杜淦堃資深大律師:竹造嘅? 25 鍾瑞霞女士:竹造,室外嘅,係嘞。 26 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白,同我哋所知嘅應該係同一條嚟嘅,我想特別問下你就係104、 27 105 號單位出面有個天井平台嘅。 28 鍾瑞霞女士:係。 29 杜淦堃資深大律師:你知我講邊個? 30 鍾瑞霞女士:我知。 31 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係而家話可能火燭喺嗰度起碼嗰度。 32 鍾瑞霞女士:我知,係嘞。 33 杜淦堃資深大律師:就嗰個天井平台,你有冇見過啲工人喺嗰度聚集或者工人喺嗰度工作? 34 鍾瑞霞女士:冇見到。 35 杜淦堃資深大律師:好嘞,想問下你另外一個問題,你知道宏昌閣地下有啲消防嘅泵房,係 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第七天

29 本謄本由Epiq 編製 咪? 1 鍾瑞霞女士:係。 2 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔嗯。個泵房房門據你嘅理解係應該鎖住嘅,係咪? 3 鍾瑞霞女士:鎖住嘅。 4 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔。你巡邏嘅時候會唔會睇下有冇鎖呀? 5 鍾瑞霞女士:有。 6 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔,座頭有鎖匙開嗰條--開到個泵房,係咪呀?? 7 鍾瑞霞女士:有。 8 杜淦堃資深大律師:如果你巡邏嘅時候發覺個泵房冇鎖,你會點做呀? 9 鍾瑞霞女士:我會通知管理處泵房冇鎖,然之後攞鎖匙去鎖番,如果我係--如果係要--發覺 10 冇鎖嘅話我會咁做,但係未見過話冇鎖㗎囉。 11 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係你完全冇見過。 12 鍾瑞霞女士:係。 13 杜淦堃資深大律師:因為我想問一問你,就係因為消防處嘅資料顯示,... 14 鍾瑞霞女士:係。 15 杜淦堃資深大律師:...喺火警當日宏昌閣嗰個泵房係冇鎖嘅。 16 鍾瑞霞女士:佢有人借鎖匙去開咗做緊嘢咪冇鎖囉,應該係咁嘞,即係我嘅認知就,係嘞。 17 杜淦堃資深大律師:你見到泵房冇鎖呢個情況,你咪同我講從來都未見過呀你? 18 鍾瑞霞女士:我以為你話我巡樓嗰陣,sorry,我誤會咗,我以為你問我巡樓嗰陣。 19 杜淦堃資深大律師:係。 20 鍾瑞霞女士:係。 21 杜淦堃資深大律師:你見到有冇鎖都要你經過先見到㗎,係咪? 22 鍾瑞霞女士:係。 23 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁你有冇試過巡樓嘅時候或者你咩嘢原因都好,經過個泵房見到冇鎖 24 呀? 25 鍾瑞霞女士:咪就係佢哋--係嘞,做緊嘢嗰陣囉。 26 杜淦堃資深大律師:都會發生嘅? 27 鍾瑞霞女士:我知道佢哋有冇借鎖匙囉,如果知道佢哋係借鎖匙,咁就知係佢哋做緊嘢囉。 28 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔。佢哋借鎖匙係嚟座頭問你借嘅,係咪? 29 鍾瑞霞女士:係。 30 杜淦堃資深大律師:借鎖匙要有本簿記錄低邊個借嘅,係咪呀? 31 鍾瑞霞女士:係。 32 杜淦堃資深大律師:你要mark 番嘅? 33 鍾瑞霞女士:係。 34 杜淦堃資深大律師:係嘞,嗰本借匙嘅記錄簿係放喺邊度?放喺邊度㗎? 35 鍾瑞霞女士:放喺座頭嘅。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第七天

30 本謄本由Epiq 編製 杜淦堃資深大律師:係。如果維修工人要借鎖匙會問邊個㗎?問你定係問你啲同事? 1 鍾瑞霞女士:如果我响度就問我,如果我行開咗就問我--係嘞,喺度頂我位嗰個同事,咁樣 2 樣。 3 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋知道呢,2025 年,舊年5 月到8 月期間有啲消防水缸嘅工程,有 4 啲工人係要入嗰個泵房嘅,你知唔知道呢件事? 5 鍾瑞霞女士:點講呢?佢哋消防嚟同我借鎖匙,咁我呀知道係消防做緊嘢,但係佢哋做乜 6 嘢,我又唔知,佢哋要借鎖匙,咁我咪登記佢哋嘅資料,然之後借鎖匙畀佢囉。 7 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係你記得喺25 年有啲做消防工程嘅人問你借鎖匙,你就登記咗,係 8 咪? 9 鍾瑞霞女士:係嘞,係嘞。 10 杜淦堃資深大律師:除咗你嗰條呢,其實屋苑裏面負責--你哋公司負責工程嘅一位李承富先 11 生佢有另外一條鎖匙開到啲泵房嘅,你知唔知呀? 12 鍾瑞霞女士:我唔知喎。 13 杜淦堃資深大律師:你都唔知呢件事。 14 鍾瑞霞女士:係呀。 15 杜淦堃資深大律師:好嘞,我想問番你火警當日嗰個情況,我明白有啲嘢未必記得,但係請 16 你儘量答我哋,因為你嘅證據都好緊要。你嗰日好似平時咁七點半返工,係咪? 17 鍾瑞霞女士:係。 18 杜淦堃資深大律師:你應該都有--唔係淨係坐喺座頭度,你有巡邏㗎嘛火警之前,係咪呀? 19 有冇行過呀嗰日? 20 鍾瑞霞女士:嗰日未到我巡樓。 21 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔。當日你嘅證人供詞其實都幾詳細記錄咗當日你留意到出出入入嗰啲 22 人嘅,我麻煩你睇第18 段。 23 鍾瑞霞女士:係。 24 杜淦堃資深大律師:你呢度第18 段有--你見到喇,前面a、b 一路落去,如果睇下一頁 25 c、d、e、f,咁你講,基本上你就解釋咗當日你見到嘅一啲嘢喇。我同你慢慢睇, 26 你a 段話,8 點鐘左右有啲工人同埋周女士就登記喇,係咪? 27 鍾瑞霞女士:唔。 28 杜淦堃資深大律師:跟住b 嗰度,你就話8 點20 分有四個負責維修嘅工人嚟喇。 29 鍾瑞霞女士:係。 30 杜淦堃資深大律師:你都認得佢哋喇。 31 鍾瑞霞女士:認得。 32 杜淦堃資深大律師:冇咩嘢事發生,所以你都冇叫佢哋登記,係咪?因為都熟口熟面嘞,咁 33 就入去嘞。 34 鍾瑞霞女士:我有再睇,因為我認得佢哋嗰幾個,然之後就搵番琴日佢幾個再寫番落嚟,咁 35 樣樣。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第七天

31 本謄本由Epiq 編製 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白,唔好擔心,我只係想知道發生咩嘢事啫。跟住你之後講,其實都 1 有啲工人出出入入。 2 鍾瑞霞女士:係。 3 杜淦堃資深大律師:去到d 嗰度,你就講到下晝,呢度差唔多起火嘅時候,你話有一個年約 4 60 歲嘅男士就走嚟同你講,宏昌閣後面起火。 5 鍾瑞霞女士:係。 6 杜淦堃資深大律師:你唔認得佢嘅,係咪呀? 7 鍾瑞霞女士:我唔識佢。 8 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係似乎係工人嚟嘅? 9 鍾瑞霞女士:佢唔係着宏業嗰啲衫,係着個街坊衫,即係嗰啲T 恤,淡黃色嘅T 恤衫,係 10 嘞。 11 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,但係你唔知道佢--你未見過,唔認得佢,係咪? 12 鍾瑞霞女士:我唔認得佢。 13 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔,唔。你座頭嗰個閉路電視呢係睇到後面泊單車嗰度㗎嘛,係咪? 14 鍾瑞霞女士:後面泊單車位,睇到。 15 杜淦堃資深大律師:係呀,我想問下你有冇望過嗰度嘅情況呀?喺起火前後。 16 鍾瑞霞女士:都有望,冇乜特別嘢。 17 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔嗯。我哋嘅資料就係喺嗰日晏晝2 點48 分喥呢,... 18 鍾瑞霞女士:係。 19 杜淦堃資深大律師:...咁嗰個閉路電視就熄咗,因為可能有啲線路嘅問題,或者有啲燒到 20 啲線,你記唔記得有一個階段你再睇唔到閉路電視呀?我想你... 21 鍾瑞霞女士:我哋單車位冇嘢呀。 22 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔,即係你留唔留意到閉路電視熄咗呀無端端? 23 鍾瑞霞女士:冇熄喎。 24 杜淦堃資深大律師:你唔記得有啲咁嘅事,係咪? 25 鍾瑞霞女士:係。 26 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想你睇18(d)呢度,咁你講咗你見到嗰位男士喇。 27 鍾瑞霞女士:係。 28 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁你就同佢一齊就跑去後面睇下個火喇,係咪? 29 鍾瑞霞女士:係。 30 杜淦堃資深大律師:你就話見到4 樓同5--4 號同5 號單位之間個天井位有火喇,係咪? 31 鍾瑞霞女士:係。 32 杜淦堃資深大律師:佢就同你講話嗰個棚網著咗火喇。你見到嗰陣,似乎個火勢唔係好大 33 嘅,係咪呀? 34 鍾瑞霞女士:唔大,淨係焫着咗咁樣樣,係嘞。即係見到嗰啲綠色嗰啲網咁樣攣住去咁樣樣 35 囉,咁樣慢慢慢慢一路攣咁樣樣嘅情況囉。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第七天

32 本謄本由Epiq 編製 杜淦堃資深大律師:個火燒得快唔快,你嘅觀察嗰陣? 1 鍾瑞霞女士:嗰陣時唔快嘅,就係咁攣--一路--係嘞,嗰啲火就咁係咁攣嗰啲綠色嗰啲嘢咁 2 樣攣住去囉,係嘞。 3 杜淦堃資深大律師:好嘞,著火喇,咁四圍啲人嘅反應你睇唔睇到?譬如有冇啲工人嗌或者 4 走,或者再有人嚟搵你? 5 鍾瑞霞女士:我印象中我見唔到有工人,係嘞。 6 杜淦堃資深大律師:你之後用對講機就話畀控制室知有火? 7 鍾瑞霞女士:係。 8 杜淦堃資深大律師:之後黃百盛先生同埋其他保安就到場,係咪? 9 鍾瑞霞女士:係。 10 杜淦堃資深大律師:之後你就返番--我哋睇(e)段,你好快就返番去宏昌閣嗰度叫大家儘快 11 離開同唔好再上去,係咪? 12 鍾瑞霞女士:係,因為我話畀佢哋聽後面著咗火,咁呀大家先唔同上樓住,我話等一等,睇 13 下救熄咗火先咁樣樣囉,同埋入大堂嗌嗰啲人儘快出番去先,咁樣樣囉。 14 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想話之後就跑去1 樓試過撳嗰個--打爛嗰個消防鐘,撳個扲手,但係 15 就冇火警鐘,係咪? 16 鍾瑞霞女士:係。 17 杜淦堃資深大律師:跟住你之後又跑去3 樓試下整著個火警鐘,但係當然都係整唔著喇,係 18 咪?你跑緊嗰陣有冇煙呀,你記唔記得? 19 鍾瑞霞女士:我上1 樓嗰陣時,嗰個樓梯佢有個好大嘅玻璃窗已經係睇嗰啲火係咁燒,我都 20 估唔到係--即係當時我咁--點解咁快呀?即係我自己都話啲火點解咁快,當時我發 21 現嗰陣時係微微燒咁樣樣,即係嗰啲綠色棚網燒即係嗰幾--係囉,三兩分鐘,點解 22 燒得咁大火呀咁囉,嗰陣時先發覺係嘞,因為個玻璃窗睇到出面係好大火。 23 杜淦堃資深大律師:個樓梯嗰陣有煙未呀?你跑上去1 樓同埋3 樓嗰陣? 24 鍾瑞霞女士:嗰陣都仲未有煙,淨係見到火同--即係玻璃窗出面嘅火同埋聽到啪啪聲。 25 杜淦堃資深大律師:我知道你嘗試上去拍門,係咪呀? 26 鍾瑞霞女士:因為打警鐘嗰陣時呢,咁我望到嗰啲煙開始喺上面嗰度樓梯落緊嚟,因為我上 27 到3 樓,4 樓,5 樓嗰個--有個生口呀所謂,佢哋嗰啲工人出去做嘢嗰個口。係 28 嘞,我就個--總之個樓梯,可能--我懷疑喺嗰度入嚟嗰啲煙,係開始入嚟嘞啲煙。 29 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係你係喺樓梯嗰度,你冇去到5 樓見到嗰個生口? 30 鍾瑞霞女士:冇上到嗰度。 31 杜淦堃資深大律師:你係懷疑嗰啲煙喺嗰度入嚟咁樣? 32 鍾瑞霞女士:係嘞,係嘞。 33 杜淦堃資深大律師:你去到幾多樓呀?係咪去到3 樓? 34 鍾瑞霞女士:3 樓,係。 35 杜淦堃資深大律師:跟住你就返番落大堂,係咪? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第七天

33 本謄本由Epiq 編製 鍾瑞霞女士:係。 1 杜淦堃資深大律師:你話畀--當時你就話畀鄭小姐聽冇火警鐘喇,係咪? 2 鍾瑞霞女士:係,...(聽不清)係,因為落到嚟我見到鄭小姐,鄭小姐話,係囉,打警鐘 3 唔響呀。 4 杜淦堃資深大律師:有啲居民話呢,大概當日2 點55 分,有送貨嘅人想走入宏昌閣,但係 5 管理處有人就叫佢唔好入嚟嘞,你記唔記得嗰個係咪你呀?你係咪試過?可唔可以 6 同我哋講? 7 鍾瑞霞女士:我已經唔知係邊個,總之係人我都趕佢哋出去,唔畀佢哋入囉。 8 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔嗯。 9 鍾瑞霞女士:即係係咩嘢人,我都唔記得咗,佢哋係咁攞住啲乜嘢,我已經唔記得咗。 10 杜淦堃資深大律師:你講到3 點喥,消防同埋警察就嚟到宏昌閣之後,係咪? 11 鍾瑞霞女士:係。大概喇,即係時間我唔知,係嘞。 12 杜淦堃資深大律師:大概喇,係。咁呀當時佢哋叫你哋走,係咪? 13 鍾瑞霞女士:係。 14 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係你就決定留低叫啲居民走,係咪? 15 鍾瑞霞女士:係。 16 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁你幾時走㗎? 17 鍾瑞霞女士:因為期間我都有返番去大堂,睇下有冇人留喺大堂,跟住--係喇,總言之我走 18 嗰陣啲火已經燒到大門上面,係嘞,即係可以講話啲火已經係圍到過嚟門口呢度, 19 咁佢正正喺後面嗰度著吖嘛,即係已經燒到嚟門口呢度,嗰陣時,係,咁我係最-- 20 可以講話係我望--我一路疏散住嗰啲人走,跟住連埋宏昌,總之係人我都嗌佢哋 21 走,咁一路轉頭望,睇下仲有冇人喺後面,嗰陣時我唔知係幾多點。 22 杜淦堃資深大律師:你會唔會記得你離開嗰陣,大堂仲有冇電? 23 鍾瑞霞女士:大堂有冇電? 24 杜淦堃資深大律師:有冇燈? 25 鍾瑞霞女士:嗰啲係燈--係電--好似冇電,好似有嗰啲話--嗰隻LED 燈,冇電佢可以著一 26 陣嗰啲。唔係好記得。 27 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔。鄭女士,我哋知道你有嘗試叫啲居民走嘅,所以你都唔好太難過。 28 主席,我冇其他問題。 29 陸啟康法官:請問各個涉事方有冇問題? 30 孫靖乾資深大律師:主席,我只係有一個問題。 31 係,鍾女士,首先都好多謝你嚟畀證供去協助呢個獨立委員會,我其實只係有 32 一個問題想問一問你嘅。 33 鍾瑞霞女士:係。 34 孫靖乾資深大律師:因為你喺你嘅證人供詞裏面,我舉個例子,喺WS2/1246 頁,咁就係喺 35 第11 段裏面,你有講過就係話,你係有喺個宏昌閣嘅大堂通告裏面就知道一啲事 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第七天

34 本謄本由Epiq 編製 情嘅,咁你有講到話呢個宏昌閣嘅大堂通告,咁我淨係想問一問你,你作為嗰個宏 1 昌閣嘅座頭。 2 鍾瑞霞女士:係。 3 孫靖乾資深大律師:咁你有冇透過一啲嘅宏昌閣嘅大堂通告,係知道就係有啲消防裝置,譬 4 如話嗰個消防喉轆係關閉,你哋有冇留意到有啲咁嘅通告? 5 鍾瑞霞女士:有留意到,但係嗰啲通告有個日期嘅,到日期就清咗,但係我唔知幾時恢復。 6 孫靖乾資深大律師:明白。即係你都會唔會有印象,呢啲通告係張貼咗幾耐,你有冇印象? 7 鍾瑞霞女士:冇印象,總之--係,嗰啲貼嘅--即係話貼到至到幾時為止,咁檢查咗,佢到日 8 期,咁就--係,會清咗咁樣樣。 9 孫靖乾資深大律師:同埋我淨係想問多一樣嘢,就係除咗呢啲通告之外,有冇一啲係管理處 10 嘅同事係會同你哋交帶過就係話其實有關一啲嘅消防嘅裝置,譬如係嗰個消防喉轆 11 係當時嚟講係停用,即係有冇人係即係喺管理處係會話過畀你知呢個情況? 12 鍾瑞霞女士:我唔記得。 13 孫靖乾資深大律師:你唔記得,好,唔該晒,我冇其他問題。 14 陸啟康法官:有冇其他?置邦。 15 許偉強資深大律師:主席,我哋冇覆問。 16 陸啟康法官:冇覆問,唔該,冇其他問題。咁鍾女士,其實我諗--我知道我哋--我諗我哋委 17 員會知道你今日上嚟個壓力都好大,但係你嘅證供對我哋了解件事非常之重要,咁 18 亦都係我諗你嘅證供亦都可以幫我哋還原,等我哋可以調查,還我哋即係嗰日咁多 19 死者一個公道,所以亦都唔使太過自責,咁總之我哋明白嘅,咁你嘅證供係對呢個 20 調查非常之有作用,多謝你今日出席,鍾女士。 21 鍾瑞霞女士:我有個要求,可唔可以借呢個機會畀少少時間我講一樣嘢? 22 陸啟康法官:請講。 23 鍾瑞霞女士:我係想為我自己澄清,因為有街坊話我係第一時間離開--第一時間最快離開, 24 我想話畀大家聽,我冇咁做到,我係有喺度一路協助啲人走,同埋一路--可以講話 25 我係最屘離開,我一路疏散嗰啲人,同啲同事--唔係,同其他同事一路疏散到去呢 26 個中央公園都還未-- 都--喺中央公園我都仲逗留咗好耐,同駱-- 唔係,同鄭主 27 任,我哋鄭主任一路疏散埋其他座嗰啲居民。係,就係呢樣嘢,因為--係囉,佢話 28 我係走得最快嗰個。係,冇嘢,係呢樣嘢,我想係為我自己澄清呢點。唔該晒。 29 陸啟康法官:鍾女士,我諗大家都聽到嘅,我諗大家可能都會有情緒,可能都會有一啲--可 30 能都會--我亦都希望你都要理解,可能真係有啲人會有啲咁嘅,但係我相信你做嘅 31 嘢或者你係會--係知嘅,所以我希望即係總之... 32 鍾瑞霞女士:唔該晒。 33 陸啟康法官:我亦都喺度好希望大家,再重申一次,我都講多次,即係希望大家喺採訪嘅時 34 間真係畀番少少--大家其實我諗都可以睇得到每一個人,尤其是喺宏福苑工作嘅 35 人,其實我諗大家--佢哋嘅情緒,大家可以想像得到嘅,咁我都希望大家可以將心 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第七天

35 本謄本由Epiq 編製 比己,睇睇--真係可以企喺佢嘅立場去諗一諗,咁喺咁嘅情況之下,請大家真係留 1 番少少空間畀我哋所有作供嘅人士,佢哋今日上得嚟,其實佢哋嘅壓力,我諗係唔 2 係一般人可以想像得到嘅,請各位可以理解。多謝鍾女士。 3 鍾瑞霞女士:唔該晒,多謝晒。 4

5 12 時11 分置邦興業有限公司管理員證人鍾瑞霞女士作供完畢 6 12 時12 分置邦興業有限公司木工證人李承富先生開始作供 7

8 杜淦堃資深大律師:下一位嚟協助我哋嘅證人係李承富先生。 9 李先生,你好。 10 李承富先生:你好。 11 杜淦堃資深大律師:麻煩你企起身讀一讀面前份聲明。 12 李承富先生:本人李承富聲明,本人作證供,盡本人所知、所屬、所信,均屬真實。 13 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔該,李先生,請坐。你現時都係受僱於ISS,你係木工維修嘅做? 14 李承富先生:係。 15 杜淦堃資深大律師:喺大火之前,你就喺宏福苑工作? 16 李承富先生:係。 17 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋知道你提供咗兩份嘅供詞,一份就係ISS 嘅律師提供畀委員會? 18 李承富先生:係。 19 杜淦堃資深大律師:另外一份就係你畀警方嘅口供? 20 李承富先生:係。 21 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,相信你都確認兩份供詞嘅內容都係真確? 22 李承富先生:係。 23 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋從你證人供詞睇到,你係負責宏福苑裏面一啲非電工嘅維修嘅,即 24 係主要係做同木有關,可唔可以咁講? 25 李承富先生:係。 26 杜淦堃資深大律師:或者可唔可以咁講,總之唔係涉及電嘅嘢都係你去搞嘅,係咪? 27 李承富先生:係,冇錯。 28 杜淦堃資深大律師:係咪成個屋苑都係你負責? 29 李承富先生:我同羅師傅單獨負責嘅。 30 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔,拍檔。 31 李承富先生:係。 32 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係你哋維修工人宏福苑,基本上就係你同埋羅師傅,係咪? 33 李承富先生:係。 34 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁你哋平時要報告,你哋嘅老闆係咪林文欣先生? 35 李承富先生:係,我上司。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第七天

36 本謄本由Epiq 編製 杜淦堃資深大律師:係。你上司林生,我哋知道佢2025 年4 月到9 月嗰段時間就冇喺宏福 1 苑嘅,係咪? 2 李承富先生:係。 3 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁嗰幾個月你就同黎永利經理匯報,係咪? 4 李承富先生:係。 5 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋根據你嘅證人供詞第13 段嗰度睇到,我可以打出嚟,畀委員會嘅 6 證人供詞。我哋知道你哋工程部有條匙,有條通鎖匙係可以開晒宏福苑八座大廈嗰 7 啲消防泵房嘅? 8 李承富先生:係。 9 杜淦堃資深大律師:嗰條鎖匙係你保管,係咪? 10 李承富先生:我有一條。 11 杜淦堃資深大律師:你有一條。 12 李承富先生:係。 13 杜淦堃資深大律師:羅師傅呢? 14 李承富先生:都有嘅。 15 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係你各自有一條? 16 李承富先生:係,係。 17 杜淦堃資深大律師:如果有外判工人要入泵房,咁通常你哋點做?你哋開畀佢定係佢要去座 18 頭借? 19 李承富先生:我哋叫佢去座頭借鎖匙。 20 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋知道有個鎖匙登記簿嘅,如果畀你睇一睇Bundle B5/2748 頁, 21 你會唔會見過? 22 李承富先生:我冇睇過。 23 杜淦堃資深大律師:你冇睇過,但係因為即係呢個係管理處嘅問題? 24 李承富先生:係。 25 杜淦堃資深大律師:但我想你睇睇第15、第16 項,我哋見到宏仁閣地下嘅泵房匙,或者地 26 下嘅消防加壓泵房匙,即係呢啲就係我哋所講嘅有關嘅鎖匙。而我想同你確認嘅就 27 係,座頭有鎖匙開到呢啲泵房,但係你哋袋住嗰條都開到嘅,係咪? 28 李承富先生:係。 29 杜淦堃資深大律師:而要佢哋去借嘅原因就係因為如果佢哋去借就會落簿,係咪? 30 李承富先生:係。 31 杜淦堃資深大律師:你都提到,你嘅證人供詞第17 段你提到2025 年5 月到8 月期間,工 32 程部收到八份嗰啲工作單,job order ,話你哋去協助宏業去宏福閣(原文照 33 錄)八座大廈嘅消防水缸度放水嘅,你記得嘛? 34 李承富先生:記得。 35 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋而家搵到三份有關嘅工作單,如果我哋去Bundle H2,麻煩。你 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第七天

37 本謄本由Epiq 編製 去H2 就會睇到6779 頁,呢啲係你哋平時處理嘅工作單,係咪? 1 李承富先生:係。 2 杜淦堃資深大律師:對面工作單嘅內容,呢啲係寫字樓同事寫出嚟,係咪? 3 李承富先生:係,冇錯。 4 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁下低我哋見到工作完成,有冇一個剔,嗰一個剔係咪你哋去剔㗎通 5 常? 6 李承富先生:係。 7 杜淦堃資深大律師:跟住我哋見到下低有寫住「完工者」同埋「查核者」,我想問下,完工 8 者嗰個係邊個嘅簽名,你知唔知? 9 李承富先生:有一個係我寫嘅,嗰個姓羅嗰個都係我寫嘅,因為我當時張單喺我手,咁我就 10 問過羅師傅「我幫你寫落去,好唔好?」呢個係姓名嚟嘅啫。 11 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔,咁下低有個查核者嗰個係邊個簽? 12 李承富先生:呢個唔知。 13 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係你交番去寫字樓?佢哋... 14 李承富先生:係,寫字樓,係。 15 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋見到有個「完工者」隔籬有個日期及時間,嗰個係咪你哋寫? 16 李承富先生:係。 17 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁下低「核實者」嗰個日期及時間你就唔知邊個寫,係咪? 18 李承富先生:係。 19 杜淦堃資深大律師:知唔知邊個寫? 20 李承富先生:唔知。 21 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋嘅理解,宏業係要求你哋工程部幫手做一啲消防缸放水嘅工作,因 22 為第一,佢哋冇消防泵房嘅鎖匙,同埋佢哋唔知道邊個掣係用嚟放水,係咪? 23 李承富先生:係。 24 杜淦堃資深大律師:所以要靠你哋幫手? 25 李承富先生:係。 26 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想話喺當時,個情況係咪咁?你哋冇叫佢哋返去借座頭嗰條鎖匙,你 27 收到張工作單,其實係你哋用你哋條鎖匙去幫佢哋做呢樣嘢? 28 李承富先生:係。 29 杜淦堃資深大律師:而當日你哋係帶埋佢哋去,係咪? 30 李承富先生:係。 31 杜淦堃資深大律師:點解唔叫佢哋去座頭借,等有番個紀錄? 32 李承富先生:因為佢呢度寫住,我哋約咗時間喺個地下大堂嗰度等,咁我哋一齊就去個泵房 33 嗰度,所以我就協助佢開咗條鎖匙--開門。 34 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白。你嘅--去番你嘅證人供詞,我想麻煩你幫一幫我哋睇一睇第20 35 段,不如由19 段開始睇,等你清楚啲個內容。你呢度咁講嘅,你話你哋按照咗當 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第七天

38 本謄本由Epiq 編製 時嘅理解,消防水缸維修係翻新大維修工程嘅一部分,而宏業係要將水缸裏面嘅水 1 放出嚟,如上述提到因為每一座大廈都有兩個消防嘅水缸,而兩個水缸都係由水管 2 連接,所以兩個消防水缸都要放水。呢個係你嘅證供? 3 李承富先生:係。 4 杜淦堃資深大律師:如果睇番20 段,你咁講,你話你當時理解操作消防裝置通常係需要通 5 知消防處,因此喺執行消防水缸放水工作單時,你有同羅先生就提出處理消防水缸 6 係要有牌先可以做呢個操作,羅先生就話接到單就要根據工作單去執行。你係好清 7 楚你有咁同佢講過,係咪? 8 李承富先生:係。 9 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想問一問你嘅理解,你係點知道操作嗰個消防泵房裏面嘅裝置要有牌 10 先做得? 11 李承富先生:因為做嚫消防裝置或維修,一定係有消防牌先可以做到。 12 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係你哋而家係入去幫佢去扭開佢,唔係做維修,點解你覺得需要消防 13 牌? 14 李承富先生:總之掂嚫消防系統嘅嘢都係要有消防牌先可以做到。 15 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白。據你所講,你就同羅先生講,你係面對面同佢講,係咪? 16 李承富先生:係。 17 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢個係你哋見到宏業啲工人之前講,係咪? 18 李承富先生:呢度應該係之後講嘅,睇下先,我諗下先。 19 杜淦堃資深大律師:你講到你收到張單之後。 20 李承富先生:哦。 21 杜淦堃資深大律師:你19 段嗰度你就講話,你個理解工作係咩嘢,20 段你就講話你嗰個操 22 作消防裝置呢個理解嘅,你可唔可以諗一諗其實係當時係收到張單講或者之後幾耐 23 講? 24 李承富先生:當時收到張單之後講。 25 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係係未去幫佢哋放水之前? 26 李承富先生:係,冇錯。 27 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁你同羅先生講完,佢係即刻答你定係佢係去咗攞指示定係點? 28 李承富先生:佢係即刻答。 29 杜淦堃資深大律師:麻煩你跟住睇第22 段,22 段你之後就講你點去做呢個工作,你就話打 30 開咗--你用你嘅鎖匙打開咗嗰個加壓泵房,宏業啲人同埋羅先生就入咗去,你就喺 31 個加壓泵房嘅門口外面等佢哋做呢個放水嘅工作,你冇入過去嘅? 32 李承富先生:係。 33 杜淦堃資深大律師:所以入面發生咩嘢事,你係唔知嘅,係咪? 34 李承富先生:係。 35 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係你喺呢次之前,你應該係有入過個泵房嘅? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第七天

39 本謄本由Epiq 編製 李承富先生:之前係我入職嗰陣,因為羅師傅帶我睇過嘅。 1 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係換句話講,呢一次帶宏業啲人去嘅時候,入去開同埋關任何掣,你 2 係唔清楚嘅,係咪? 3 李承富先生:係。 4 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想問下你,我哋知道入面有個刀掣係開關嗰個系統嘅,你知道嘛? 5 李承富先生:應該知道。 6 杜淦堃資深大律師:係唔係八座嘅情況都係咁?即係你八座都冇入過去個加壓泵房? 7 李承富先生:係。 8 杜淦堃資深大律師:你冇鬥過啲嘢? 9 李承富先生:係。 10 杜淦堃資深大律師:如果我哋睇番22、23 段,其實你做--據你所講,你係做啲咩嘢?你係 11 主要幫手喺另外一個位置扭動個泵房裏面嗰個塘環,係咪? 12 李承富先生:係。 13 杜淦堃資深大律師:而羅先生就關閉咗嗰個街喉上水掣,係咪? 14 李承富先生:係。 15 杜淦堃資深大律師:我都想同你澄清另外一樣嘢嘅,呢個就係喺另外一個泵房裏面發生嘅 16 事,係咪?因為有兩個泵房,我哋知道。 17 李承富先生:係,係,冇錯。 18 杜淦堃資深大律師:羅先生佢喺佢畀警方嘅口供,主席,記錄喺Bundle C1-2/1223 19 頁,我可以同你講羅先生係咁講嘅,佢話宏福苑八座嘅水缸維修工程,放水過程都 20 基本上係用佢解釋嘅流程去做,如果佢有返工,就會由佢去關閉消防系統嘅總掣同 21 埋消防用嘅水泵掣,佢話如果佢放假,就會由你去處理,由李師傅去處理,咁得一 22 個李師傅,應該係你,係咪? 23 李承富先生:嗄。 24 杜淦堃資深大律師:你印象中有冇試過係佢放假,所以係由你去處理嗰個加壓泵房裏面嗰啲 25 工作? 26 李承富先生:係冇嘅。因為我記得有一單係星期三羅師傅放假嘅,跟住羅師傅冇返工就改咗 27 期。 28 杜淦堃資深大律師:好,我想問一問你,你幫手處理咗嗰個--做完嗰個塘環之後,如果返番 29 去你嘅證人供詞第24 段,你講到話你之後同宏業嘅人員上咗天台消防水缸,天台 30 消防水缸都有一個塘環嘅,喺個棚架上高,咁你就叫佢自己上去轉嗰個塘環,係 31 咪? 32 李承富先生:係。 33 杜淦堃資深大律師:跟住25 段你搞完八座你就走咗嘞,八座嘅情況都係咁,係咪? 34 李承富先生:係。 35 杜淦堃資深大律師:扭嗰個塘環,佢做完嗰個--佢要扭番去--扭完--扭開咗佢,應該要扭 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第七天

40 本謄本由Epiq 編製 番閂埋佢嘅,做完,係咪? 1 李承富先生:冇,佢冇閂到。 2 杜淦堃資深大律師:佢冇閂到嘅? 3 李承富先生:係。 4 杜淦堃資深大律師:另外我想問下你個泵房個鎖嘅問題,泵房係應該有個鎖塔鎖住嘅,係 5 咪? 6 李承富先生:係。 7 杜淦堃資深大律師:平時應該係一路都係上鎖? 8 李承富先生:係。 9 杜淦堃資深大律師:你有冇留意到,喺嗰幾個月,有冇啲情況你經過,發覺冇鎖? 10 李承富先生:有。 11 杜淦堃資深大律師:個情況係點,你可唔可以講一講畀我哋聽? 12 李承富先生:我臨收工嗰陣睇到宏泰出面嗰個大泵房係冇鎖嘅。 13 杜淦堃資深大律師:你冇鎖--見到冇鎖,跟住點? 14 李承富先生:係,我見到冇鎖。 15 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁你點做? 16 李承富先生:咁我嘗試過有一兩次鎖咗,鎖番,但係我都通知咗佢哋,話畀佢聽冇鎖,咁佢 17 哋話會跟進。 18 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想問下你知唔知點解,邊個開咗跟住冇鎖番? 19 李承富先生:應該佢哋啲工人。 20 杜淦堃資深大律師:宏泰? 21 李承富先生:係。 22 杜淦堃資深大律師:點解你覺得係宏泰啲工人? 23 李承富先生:因為佢哋喺裏面做工程。 24 杜淦堃資深大律師:大概係幾時,嗰個情況係?你如果用大火之前嚟計幾多個月? 25 李承富先生:應該大火之前兩三個月喥。 26 杜淦堃資深大律師:你幾多次見過冇上鎖? 27 李承富先生:一兩次。 28 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔該晒你,我冇其他問題,唔該主席。 29 陸啟康法官:唔該。其他涉事方,唔該。 30 林樂夫大律師:係,主席,我有少少問題想問李生。 31 李生,啱啱你講宏泰定宏業? 32 李承富先生:宏泰--咩嘢... 33 林樂夫大律師:宏泰就係消防年檢嗰個分判商,宏... 34 李承富先生:唔係,唔係,宏業呀,...(聽不清)宏業。 35 林樂夫大律師:宏業,係咪?你啱啱講係宏業,做大維修嗰個? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第七天

41 本謄本由Epiq 編製 李承富先生:係。 1 林樂夫大律師:就做工程之後就冇閂... 2 李承富先生:鎖番。 3 林樂夫大律師:冇鎖番,係咪? 4 李承富先生:係,係。 5 林樂夫大律師:宏業,係咪? 6 李承富先生:係,宏業。 7 林樂夫大律師:係,係。跟住仲有少少問題,咁就係喺你嘅證人口供WS2 嘅第20 段,係, 8 第20 段,咁就想問下你係咪八次你都有同羅師傅一齊去,喺唔同日子去協助宏業 9 係放消防水缸水? 10 李承富先生:係。 11 林樂夫大律師:咁你呢度第20 段講話「提醒羅師傅話消防水缸要處理就要有消防牌照」, 12 係淨係第一次有提醒羅師傅定係八次都有提醒? 13 李承富先生:第一次。 14 林樂夫大律師:淨係第一次? 15 李承富先生:係。 16 林樂夫大律師:你係從乜嘢嘅途徑知道處理消防水缸係--或者裝置,要需要有消防牌照? 17 李承富先生:我嘅認知係知道啫。 18 林樂夫大律師:係咪因為有入職嘅訓練定點? 19 李承富先生:即係有時睇過下啲廣告嗰啲,同埋之前做過啲盤,都知道下嘅。 20 林樂夫大律師:即係工作經驗? 21 李承富先生:係。 22 林樂夫大律師:係。咁啱啱你都有提過話你知道喺個加壓泵房入面有刀掣,係咪? 23 李承富先生:係。 24 林樂夫大律師:「刀掣」即係一個總電掣開關,係咪? 25 李承富先生:嗄,嗄。 26 林樂夫大律師:咁你知唔知一閂咗刀掣,係連消防警鐘都會閂埋? 27 李承富先生:唔知。 28 林樂夫大律師:喺你最初入職嘅時候,羅師傅帶你入去呢個加壓消防泵房嘅時候,羅師傅有 29 冇同你講解每一個消防裝置入面嘅功用? 30 李承富先生:冇。 31 林樂夫大律師:淨係帶你入去嘅啫? 32 李承富先生:係,係。 33 林樂夫大律師:但係你就知道有個刀掣喺入面? 34 李承富先生:係,嗄。 35 林樂夫大律師:唔該晒,主席,我冇其他問題,係。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第七天

42 本謄本由Epiq 編製 陸啟康法官:其他涉事方有冇其他問題? 1 孫靖乾資深大律師:係,主席、兩位委員,我會有一啲問題。 2 李先生,我都係代表政府嘅大律師,有少少問題想同你去澄清番嘅。 3 李承富先生:好。 4 孫靖乾資深大律師:咁首先你就有講過,就話喺2025 年嘅4 月至到9 月期間,就係應該係 5 當時嚟講就係呢個林文欣先生嗰陣時就唔係喺宏福苑工作緊嘅? 6 李承富先生:係。 7 孫靖乾資深大律師:所以即係變咗如果當時你嗰個上司或者係直屬嘅上司,就唔會係林文欣 8 先生,就會係變咗係嗰個宏福苑嘅直接就係個黎經理? 9 李承富先生:係。 10 孫靖乾資深大律師:係。咁我就想問一問,頭先都問過你,就係你嗰個證人供詞第20 段, 11 第20 段就喺WS2/1256 頁,咁1256 頁嘅時候,你就話係你有係同羅先生提出處 12 理消防水缸係需要消防牌照係先至能夠去操作嘅。咁頭先就係代表宏泰嘅林大律師 13 有問過你,咁你就話應該係第--喺嗰八座裏面做第一座嘅時候,咁嘅放水嘅時候, 14 咁你先至係有同羅先生咁講。咁當時據你記得係咪應該就係大約係2025 年嘅7 月 15 份左右,即係我哋見到嗰啲其中一啲工作單,有啲係7 月份定係咩嘢時間? 16 李承富先生:應該早之前有幾張工作單嘅。 17 孫靖乾資深大律師:早之前嘅工作單? 18 李承富先生:嗄,嗄。 19 孫靖乾資深大律師:咁你同羅師傅去講嘅時候,當時嚟講,係咪應該係林文欣先生其實就已 20 經--喺當時嚟講,你記唔記得林文欣先生係咪唔喺宏福苑工作? 21 李承富先生:係。 22 孫靖乾資深大律師:咁除咗同羅師傅講之餘,針對你第20 段講嘅呢個情況,即係話只係有 23 呢一個牌嘅承辦商先至可以去掂嗰啲消防裝置,你有冇當時有諗過係要同你嘅上司 24 去報告,或者係去諮詢下你個上司點樣去做? 25 李承富先生:冇,冇。 26 孫靖乾資深大律師:同埋我就想問,就呢個係咪你第一次係有去協助譬如任何其他嘅承辦商 27 係去做嗰個消防水缸嗰個放水嘅工作? 28 李承富先生:係。 29 孫靖乾資深大律師:係。咁你當時嚟講,係咪應該都知道其實宏泰,其實一直以嚟都係呢一 30 個宏福苑所委派嘅一個關於消防裝置嘅承辦商,呢樣嘢你係知唔知道? 31 李承富先生:都知道。 32 孫靖乾資深大律師:係。咁有冇喺嗰陣時係諗過,其實係可以譬如去聯絡下宏泰,或者打個 33 電話畀佢哋,去問下佢哋,或者睇下點樣去做,即係了解下,有冇咁樣諗過? 34 李承富先生:冇諗過。 35 孫靖乾資深大律師:咁最後你千祈唔好介意,即係你同羅師傅傾,又或者你問佢即係話「呢 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第七天

43 本謄本由Epiq 編製 啲消防裝置應該係要有牌嘅人先至可以去做個喎」咁,咁當時你記唔記得羅師傅, 1 即係除咗話--即係或者直接咁講,羅師傅有冇啲咩嘢特別嘅回應,你可唔可以再講 2 一講畀我哋聽? 3 李承富先生:冇乜特別回應。 4 孫靖乾資深大律師:喺當刻你有冇考慮過,如果咁做會唔會有可能係會違反咗一啲嘅可能法 5 例或者規則,有冇呢個考慮,有冇諗過? 6 李承富先生:冇。 7 孫靖乾資深大律師:冇嘅,好。好,唔該晒李先生。我冇其他問題。 8 陸啟康法官:係,置邦。 9 許偉強資深大律師:李師傅,我就就住你口供,剛才委員會大律師杜大律師問過你一個問 10 題,我想同你澄清下嘅啫,就係如果我哋睇番你嘅口供第22 至到24 段,麻煩你等 11 一等,唔該。喺22 段至到24 段,其實你都係同我哋講番你當時同羅師傅就住去協 12 助宏業嗰啲工作嘅時候嗰個流程嘅,咁第22 段你就講話係先去到嗰個消防加壓泵 13 房,第23 段,就跟住就去個主要泵房,24 段就係話之後就去咗天台嗰個防火水缸 14 嗰個位置。我想問下呢一個咁嘅流程,呢個咁嘅程序,因為你哋做咗八座都係提供 15 咗類似嘅協助,我想問一問呢一個咁嘅流程,即係話去咗邊一個泵房先,呢一個流 16 墋,八座係咪都係一樣定係八座個情況有時會唔同? 17 李承富先生:八座嘅情況會有啲唔同嘅。 18 許偉強資深大律師:明白。 19 李承富先生:係。 20 許偉強資深大律師:有冇咩嘢特別原因係有唔同? 21 李承富先生:都冇乜嘅。 22 許偉強資深大律師:唔。通常都係跟邊一個指示去做? 23 李承富先生:羅師傅帶住我哋去做。 24 許偉強資深大律師:明白。好,唔該晒,冇其他問題。 25 陸啟康法官:係,冇其他問題,咁李先生,多謝你今日出席,你嘅證供對我哋嘅調查非常之 26 有幫助,多謝你。 27 李承富先生:唔該晒。 28

29 12 時36 分置邦興業有限公司木工證人李承富先生作供完畢 30 12 時36 分置邦興業有限公司電工證人羅國瑞先生開始作供 31

32 杜淦堃資深大律師:主席,下一位證人係羅國瑞先生。麻煩你讀一讀你面前嘅聲明,羅先 33 生。 34 羅國瑞先生:本人羅國瑞聲明,本人所作的證供,盡本人所知、所悉及所信,均屬正確、真 35 實。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第七天

44 本謄本由Epiq 編製 杜淦堃資深大律師:羅生,你好,請坐。 1 羅國瑞先生:好,唔該。 2 杜淦堃資深大律師:你喺宏福苑都做咗二十年電工,係咪? 3 羅國瑞先生:係。 4 杜淦堃資深大律師:你一路都有電工牌,係咪? 5 羅國瑞先生:係。 6 杜淦堃資深大律師:你平時就係向林文欣先生匯報,係咪? 7 羅國瑞先生:係 8 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋知道2025 年有幾個月佢就唔喺度,咁你嘅上司就奱咗黎永利經 9 理,係咪? 10 羅國瑞先生:係。 11 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想麻煩你睇番你嘅證人供詞,呢份係--你前面個螢光幕睇到,你證人 12 供詞嘅第1 頁,如果我哋去第9 段,睇得清唔清楚你而家? 13 羅國瑞先生:係。 14 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋見到第9 段講你係宏福苑嘅電工? 15 羅國瑞先生:係。 16 杜淦堃資深大律師:你一般嘅職責係修理同埋同電力有關嘅工作。 17 羅國瑞先生:唔。 18 杜淦堃資深大律師:維修同埋維護啲照明系統。 19 羅國瑞先生:係。 20 杜淦堃資深大律師:處理公共區域嘅一般維修同埋做一啲根據需要--咁好啲,係咪?清楚 21 啲。 22 羅國瑞先生:唔。 23 杜淦堃資深大律師:做其他電力嘅維護工作嘅。 24 羅國瑞先生:係,照明嗰啲。 25 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想問你同埋另外一位李師傅,係唔係你嘅拍檔? 26 羅國瑞先生:係。 27 杜淦堃資深大律師:佢就冇電工牌嘅? 28 羅國瑞先生:係。 29 杜淦堃資深大律師:係唔係可以咁分,即係同電有關嗰啲嘢就你去處理,其他嗰啲嘢就佢 30 搞? 31 羅國瑞先生:係,係。 32 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係呢度講你都有處理一般維修嘅。 33 羅國瑞先生:係。 34 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想問下你,如果譬如啲水箱漏水嗰啲,你會唔會去處理嘅呢? 35 羅國瑞先生:水箱漏水唔關我哋事。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第七天

45 本謄本由Epiq 編製 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係譬如呢個天台嗰啲水缸會唔會係你哋去睇嘅呢? 1 羅國瑞先生:食水同埋鹹水嗰啲會跟進下。 2 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係換句話講,如果有水缸漏水嘅情況,其實管理處或者寫字樓都會通 3 知你兩位,係咪? 4 羅國瑞先生:係,係。 5 杜淦堃資深大律師:你兩個都會一齊去睇睇,係咪? 6 羅國瑞先生:係。 7 杜淦堃資深大律師:喺你嘅證人供詞第10 段,你講咗你唔負責屋苑管理、住戶聯絡、承辦 8 商嘅工作,你亦都唔會負責消防裝置同埋設備,包括消防水缸同其他相關嘅系統呢 9 一啲合規嘅事情,係咪? 10 羅國瑞先生:係。 11 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁你講得好清楚,呢啲事情係需要一啲持牌嘅人士去跟進,係咪? 12 羅國瑞先生:唔。 13 杜淦堃資深大律師:你喺宏福苑工作咁耐,你知道消防設備嗰個承辦商係邊間公司嘛? 14 羅國瑞先生:承辦商最近就應該係嗰個叫做宏泰,之前第二間我都唔記得咗乜嘢。 15 杜淦堃資深大律師:一般嚟講,因為你呢個認知,我相信你唔會去鬥嗰啲消防系統裝置嘅, 16 係咪? 17 羅國瑞先生:係,一定。 18 杜淦堃資深大律師:開關你都唔會去搞,係咪? 19 羅國瑞先生:係,係。 20 杜淦堃資深大律師:喺2025 年之前,相信可唔可以咁講?你都冇嘗試去就嗰啲系統嘅開 21 關,你自己走去做,你都係交畀承辦商搞嘅,係咪? 22 羅國瑞先生:係。 23 杜淦堃資深大律師:第15 段嗰度我哋就睇到,你講得好清楚每座大廈有兩個泵房,一個主 24 要泵房同一個加壓泵房,係咪? 25 羅國瑞先生:係。 26 杜淦堃資深大律師:裏面泵房啲設施你應該都係熟悉嘅,係咪? 27 羅國瑞先生:熟悉。 28 杜淦堃資深大律師:或者幫一幫我哋去睇一睇,如果bundle C1-2/1619,呢個係第一個 29 --有兩個泵房嘅,呢個係個主要泵房,係咪? 30 羅國瑞先生:呢個大泵房。 31 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,呢度我哋見到有處理食水、鹹水,同埋消防上水嗰個泵嘅,係咪? 32 羅國瑞先生:係。 33 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋叫咗佢做運轉水缸。 34 羅國瑞先生:咩嘢叫運轉水缸? 35 杜淦堃資深大律師:有三個設施嘅,一個係處理食水,一個係處理鹹水,係咪? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第七天

46 本謄本由Epiq 編製 羅國瑞先生:唔,唔。 1 杜淦堃資深大律師:一個就係個消防上水泵,係咪? 2 羅國瑞先生:唔。 3 杜淦堃資深大律師:如果我哋睇番-- 呢個係第一個泵房,另外有個消防加壓泵房嘅,睇 4 1641 頁,1641、1642 我哋就見到有啲裝置,呢個係加壓泵房裏面見到,係咪? 5 羅國瑞先生:唔。 6 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢啲裝置你都--因為同電有關,所以你應該都熟悉嘅? 7 羅國瑞先生:係,見過,見過。 8 杜淦堃資深大律師:換句話講,你唔會操作佢哋,... 9 羅國瑞先生:唔會。 10 杜淦堃資深大律師:...但係因為你係有電工牌嘅,呢啲設施你邊嚿打邊嚿,佢哋愛嚟做乜 11 你應該係知嘅,係咪? 12 羅國瑞先生:知。 13 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋睇番之前嘅一頁,呢度。 14 羅國瑞先生:唔。 15 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢個係加壓泵房裏面嘅設施,之前嘅證人似乎係咁講嘅,如果我哋睇番 16 呢個板面,我哋見到有一個1 號泵,如果放大少少,你見到左手邊同右手邊分別有 17 1 號泵同2 號泵掣嘅,英文叫(English Spoken),你知道有呢兩個泵掣嘅, 18 而家寫住“off"嘅,O-F-F 嘅。 19 羅國瑞先生:我唔知,我淨係知道嗰個係一個總掣。 20 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢啲即係板面上高呢啲掣你唔清楚嘅? 21 羅國瑞先生:唔清楚。 22 杜淦堃資深大律師:你話知道個總掣,你嘅意思係唔係指--如果睇下一頁,你總掣係唔係指 23 呢個? 24 羅國瑞先生:係嘞,指呢個就係。 25 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係你嘅理解,就係頭先紅色嗰個板面上高邊個掣打邊個,你就唔理解 26 嘅? 27 羅國瑞先生:唔理解嘅。 28 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係個總掣你就知嘅? 29 羅國瑞先生:唔。 30 杜淦堃資深大律師:如果我哋需要閂嗰啲泵嘅話,閂咗呢個掣啲泵就會冇電,係咪? 31 羅國瑞先生:係。 32 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想問你,你知唔知道閂咗呢個掣,其實嗰個火警鐘都會冇電? 33 羅國瑞先生:唔知道。 34 杜淦堃資深大律師:你唔知道。消防處有一個講法嘅,佢哋就話其實閂啲泵就唔使閂呢個掣 35 嘅,其實板面上高有其他掣係可以閂咗啲消防水泵,呢個刀掣唔使閂嘅,你知唔知 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第七天

47 本謄本由Epiq 編製 道? 1 羅國瑞先生:唔知。 2 杜淦堃資深大律師:睇番你個證人供詞第18 段,你呢度提到喺大維修期間,2025 年7 月 3 到8 月,你就收到啲工作單要幫宏業去做一啲消防水缸放水嘅工程,係咪? 4 羅國瑞先生:係。 5 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想問下你,因為你呢度就係講7 月至8 月,你曾經同警方講過係4 月 6 至8 月嘅,我知道有時可能好難記邊個月打邊個月,... 7 羅國瑞先生:係,記唔到。 8 杜淦堃資深大律師:...但係你可唔可以--而家如果我問你,我哋知道個火警係11 月尾, 9 推斷番之前,你應該係邊個月開始幫宏業做呢啲放水嘅工作? 10 羅國瑞先生:我已經忘記咗,睇番單就知。 11 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想問下你,管理處如果畀單你,佢係點樣畀你嘅,即係佢叫你去收 12 咁? 13 羅國瑞先生:我返工嗰陣時,佢嗰啲單夾喺個打卡機上面,咁我同李師傅邊個早就邊個去收 14 嘅。 15 杜淦堃資深大律師:李師傅係你拍檔,... 16 羅國瑞先生:拍檔。 17 杜淦堃資深大律師:...你識咗好多年,係咪? 18 羅國瑞先生:係,一入職入嚟就識。 19 杜淦堃資深大律師:入嚟就識,即係識咗好多年已經? 20 羅國瑞先生:總之佢入職我先識佢。 21 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想話你幫一幫我哋一樣嘢,因為李師傅有一個講法嘅,佢話收到要放 22 水嗰個工作單嘅時候,佢就話--你識睇--證人供詞所有中文你睇到? 23 羅國瑞先生:睇到。 24 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想麻煩你,咁你去睇一睇李師傅嘅供詞,(English Spoken)/第 25 1256 頁。李師傅咁講嘅,佢話佢理解去操作呢啲消防裝置係要通知消防處,所以 26 執行呢啲消防水缸放水工作單嘅時候,佢曾經同你講過係處理消防水缸應該要有消 27 防牌先做嘅,... 28 羅國瑞先生:係。 29 杜淦堃資深大律師:...你就話「接到單就做喇」。 30 羅國瑞先生:係。 31 杜淦堃資深大律師:你記唔記得佢有咁同你講過? 32 羅國瑞先生:記得。 33 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁我想問下當時你嘅理解係唔係都係同佢一樣,其實去操作呢啲消防裝 34 置要有牌先做得嘅? 35 羅國瑞先生:係。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第七天

48 本謄本由Epiq 編製 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁點解佢同你講完之後,你就話「接到單就做」,你唔去問下「喂,有 1 牌先鬥得個喎,我哋唔好搞喎」? 2 羅國瑞先生:我咪拎張單去管理處問囉。 3 杜淦堃資深大律師:你搦張單去管理處問邊位? 4 羅國瑞先生:問嗰啲同事同埋駱小姐。 5 杜淦堃資深大律師:可唔可以話畀我知你問駱小姐嘅時候,佢點同你講? 6 羅國瑞先生:佢話「即係今次係宏業要放水,叫我哋協助。」咁我有電動牌,所以咪要協助 7 佢囉。 8 杜淦堃資深大律師:羅先生,我知道發生咗事情,大家都唔想。 9 羅國瑞先生:唔想。 10 杜淦堃資深大律師:我都想同你講清楚,我唔係話你講大話,因為有唔同嘅記憶,好多唔同 11 嘅理由。 12 羅國瑞先生:唔。 13 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係我想問你嘅,就係當時既然你理解係要消防牌至做,駱小姐咁同你 14 講,你都應該知道係唔啱,係咪? 15 羅國瑞先生:係。 16 杜淦堃資深大律師:佢咁同你講完之後,你點做? 17 羅國瑞先生:咪照張單做囉。 18 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係既然你知道駱小姐呢個講法唔啱,點解你依然照做? 19 羅國瑞先生:因為張單出咗,我驚我嗰個咩嘢--工作... 20 杜淦堃資深大律師:慢慢。 21 羅國瑞先生:...驚有處分同埋... 22 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想問清楚你,其實駱小姐唔係你老闆嚟㗎嘛,你平時唔係向佢匯報㗎 23 嘛? 24 羅國瑞先生:唔係。 25 杜淦堃資深大律師:點解唔同老闆講--同你嘅上司講? 26 羅國瑞先生:我上司林文欣唔因為唔喺度。 27 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁有冇諗過問一問黎經理,咁做唔係好妥當喎? 28 羅國瑞先生:都有諗過,但係冇做。 29 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想你睇一睇你證人供詞第21 段,你講出放水嗰三個步驟,係咪? 30 羅國瑞先生:係。 31 杜淦堃資深大律師:第一,就係喺個主要嘅泵房閂咗個水掣;第二,就係將水缸嘅水通過嗰 32 個塘環就喺水缸度排出,係咪? 33 羅國瑞先生:唔。 34 杜淦堃資深大律師:第三,就係要閂咗嗰個加壓泵房嘅刀掣,係咪? 35 羅國瑞先生:係。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第七天

49 本謄本由Epiq 編製 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋留意到你亦都有澄清番嘅,你係未做過呢個水缸放水嘅工作,係 1 咪? 2 羅國瑞先生:係。 3 杜淦堃資深大律師:所以你呢個都係喺同宏泰工作嘅時候知道,係咪? 4 羅國瑞先生:係。 5 杜淦堃資深大律師:做年檢嗰陣? 6 羅國瑞先生:維修年檢。 7 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係維修年檢嗰陣應該都係宏泰做,佢應該都係唔使你幫手嘅,係咪? 8 羅國瑞先生:唔使。 9 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁如果你冇參與,你點解會知道嘅? 10 羅國瑞先生:佢有講過,即係有了解過。 11 杜淦堃資深大律師:我都要講清楚,頭先我畀你睇過你話你同駱小姐有個對話,咁你知道駱 12 小姐個講法就係佢真係話你冇咁同佢講過嘅,我要重複一次,我唔係話你係講大 13 話,但係你係唔係肯定你講嗰個係駱小姐同埋你有咁同佢講呀? 14 羅國瑞先生:我收第一張單嗰陣時我係講過嘅。 15 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係你記得好清楚,你係有同佢講嘅? 16 羅國瑞先生:係,提及過嘅。 17 杜淦堃資深大律師:有一個講法,就係其實你去做放水唔使閂個刀掣,你頭先都講你係唔知 18 道呢樣嘢,係咪? 19 羅國瑞先生:你再講多次? 20 杜淦堃資深大律師:有一個講法,消防處嘅講法,就係話其實放水,你想熄個泵係唔使閂個 21 刀掣嘅,你頭先講咗畀我哋聽呢樣嘢你係唔知嘅,係咪? 22 羅國瑞先生:即係嗰個泵一定要閂個掣,唔係你行空泵冇水發生事故㗎嘛。 23 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係你嘅講法就係話你認為如果要熄個泵,就要熄埋個刀掣嘅? 24 羅國瑞先生:係要閂咗個掣。 25 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢個係你點知?邊個講你聽㗎? 26 羅國瑞先生:我個認知。 27 杜淦堃資深大律師:你呢個認知,你可唔可以話畀我哋知喺邊度嚟㗎? 28 羅國瑞先生:係嗰啲叫做咩嘢?嗰啲消防承辦商嗰啲咁講。 29 杜淦堃資深大律師:佢哋點同你講,你可唔可以解一解畀我哋聽?你頭先講過行空泵呢一樣 30 嘢。 31 羅國瑞先生:即係根本你放晒啲水,冇水,譬如個泵行,變咗咪燒泵。即係等如汽車,你個 32 水箱冇水咪揦車頭,即係咁。 33 杜淦堃資深大律師:而你嘅講法係你唔知道熄嗰個刀掣會影響到個火警鐘嘅,係咪? 34 羅國瑞先生:係,冇錯。 35 杜淦堃資深大律師:如果你知道,你會唔會熄? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第七天

50 本謄本由Epiq 編製 羅國瑞先生:如果知道梗係唔會熄。 1 杜淦堃資深大律師:你同警方講過,如果係放水熄掣嗰啲問題,你如果喺度就你去處理,你 2 放假就李師傅處理。但係就宏福苑八座去處理呢個水缸放水,熄呢啲掣嘅問題都係 3 其實你做,係咪?你放假嘅時候,李師傅做咗嘅,你同唔同意? 4 羅國瑞先生:同意。 5 杜淦堃資深大律師:同意,係咪? 6 羅國瑞先生:唔係,你再講一次。 7 杜淦堃資深大律師:你同警方講過,就係話如果宏福苑裏面八座嘅水缸維修工程個放水時 8 候,要熄嗰個消防系統個總掣,如果你放假就係李師傅去處理嘅呢一樣嘢? 9 羅國瑞先生:係。 10 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係就今次呢八座熄掣呢個問題,你同唔同意其實都係你去處理,李師 11 傅冇處理過? 12 羅國瑞先生:係,一齊去處理。 13 杜淦堃資深大律師:李師傅嘅講法係佢冇入泵房嘅,佢係喺門口嘅? 14 羅國瑞先生:係。 15 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係所以入去閂個掣對於你個講法,其實係你去閂嘅,係咪? 16 羅國瑞先生:係。 17 杜淦堃資深大律師:其實你都好坦白,喺今年1 月15 號你畀警方嘅口供裏面,你都承認咗 18 其實呢八座嗰個刀掣都係你自己去關閉佢,個原因係你唔知道會熄到個消防系統, 19 係咪? 20 羅國瑞先生:係,係。 21 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁你熄咗嗰個刀掣去畀佢哋做工程,你有冇同佢哋傾過幾時開番,之後 22 點跟進嘅問題? 23 羅國瑞先生:冇,我淨係簽番張工作單交番管理處,因為嗰啲工程嘅嘢唔係我負責㗎嘛。 24 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁你覺唔覺得其實熄咗你都要開番,咁邊個去做呢樣嘢? 25 羅國瑞先生:唔知就係,應該係佢哋承辦商做,我上一次都係協助佢,我做協助㗎咋嘛。 26 杜淦堃資深大律師:好,羅師傅,唔該晒你。 27 羅國瑞先生:唔使,唔好客氣。 28 陸啟康法官:有冇人--即係我仲有少少時間,睇下可唔可以--有冇問題? 29 孫靖乾資深大律師:主席、兩位委員,我諗我同埋應該係林大律師都有少少問題,但係我應 30 該唔多,因為都大部分其實獨音委員會嘅杜大律師問咗,咁我淨係想問少少,係 31 嘞。係,羅師傅,我淨係可能有兩三個問題係想問一問你嘅。第一個問題,就係我 32 想你睇番你嘅證人供詞嘅第21 段,咁係喺呢個WS2/1234 頁。呢度就你有講過話 33 你未做過呢個消防水缸嗰個放水,但係你曾經就係喺一啲註冊消防承辦商係進行年 34 檢嘅時候就理解過。 35 羅國瑞先生:係。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第七天

51 本謄本由Epiq 編製 孫靖乾資深大律師:就話例如係宏泰,你會唔會記得譬如話宏泰邊一位同事有同你講過,你 1 有冇印象? 2 羅國瑞先生:嗰啲我唔識個喎,因為我都唔識嗰啲人,即係大家傾偈咁傾,佢講畀我聽。 3 孫靖乾資深大律師:第二個問題,就係我都會想問番你,即係頭先我亦都問過李師傅,就係 4 話當你係接到嗰個job order,即係嗰個工作單,咁而李師傅亦都同你講咗話其 5 實應該係要有一啲即係註冊承辦商先至可以去做或者去掂呢啲消防裝置嘅時候,你 6 有冇諗過係去接觸下呢個譬如宏泰,亦都去問下佢哋個情況,有冇咁樣諗過當時? 7 羅國瑞先生:因為我唔識嗰啲人,我哋唔識宏泰承辦商嗰啲人㗎嘛。 8 孫靖乾資深大律師:係,明白。即係你意思係當時就冇咁樣諗,因為其實你唔特別認識宏泰 9 嗰啲嘅職員? 10 羅國瑞先生:係。 11 孫靖乾資深大律師:或者亦都冇佢哋嘅聯絡電話? 12 羅國瑞先生:冇。 13 孫靖乾資深大律師:咁就冇諗過更進一步,即係譬如話要問下呢啲管理處嘅同事可唔可以聯 14 絡宏泰,就冇諗到嗰一步應該? 15 羅國瑞先生:冇,冇。 16 孫靖乾資深大律師:係,明白。跟住我都想問一問你,就係頭先杜大律師都有問過,即係你 17 有冇再諗去同譬如話經理黎先生,就係再去同佢講或者係匯報,咁你都解釋咗就話 18 你有諗過,但係冇咁樣去做。但係我淨係想問你,咁一開始嘅時候,李師傅同你講 19 咗,而你都同樣地覺得係要有持牌嘅人先至可以去掂呢啲嘅消防裝置嘅時候,咁喺 20 嗰一刻點解你會首先問咗駱小姐先呢?純粹係唔係因為嗰個係佢去簽job 21 order?定係咩嘢原因呢? 22 羅國瑞先生:佢係發單人吖嘛。 23 孫靖乾資深大律師:佢係發單人,係。好,唔該晒,羅師傅。我冇其他問題。 24 林樂夫大律師:主席,我都係得兩三個問題,會好快嘅。唔該晒,主席。羅師傅,我哋睇一 25 睇李師傅嘅證人口供,WS2/1255,第17 段。1255 頁,係嘞,第17 段,純粹時 26 間性嘅啫,因為李師傅就話喺2025 年5 月及8 月期間入面有八個呢啲job 27 order,咁所以你同唔同意其實就係大約喺2025 年5 月,你第一次入去呢個加壓 28 泵房放水呢?放消防水缸嘅水。 29 羅國瑞先生:我已經忘記咗,我要睇番單先知道時間。 30 林樂夫大律師:係,明白。跟住就再問,就係你閂咗刀掣之後,八棟刀掣都係咁閂,除咗 31 你,仲有邊位ISS 同事係知道刀掣已經閂咗? 32 羅國瑞先生:唔知。 33 林樂夫大律師:淨係得你知? 34 羅國瑞先生:同埋李師傅知。 35 林樂夫大律師:李師傅知。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第七天

52 本謄本由Epiq 編製 羅國瑞先生:同埋呢個--嗰個叫咩嘢?宏業喇。 1 林樂夫大律師:宏業。 2 羅國瑞先生:宏業嗌我哋去做嘢嗰個。 3 林樂夫大律師:即係你冇特別同其他同事交代? 4 羅國瑞先生:冇。 5 林樂夫大律師:跟住就最後一個問題,就係因為林生,你上司唔再喺公司做嘅時候,你係直 6 屬黎經理,係咪? 7 羅國瑞先生:係。 8 林樂夫大律師:咁黎經理佢管唔管電力、消防嗰啲嘢? 9 羅國瑞先生:咁我又唔清楚佢管乜,即係佢係管我。 10 林樂夫大律師:管你? 11 羅國瑞先生:係。 12 林樂夫大律師:咁你就係管電力? 13 羅國瑞先生:係。 14 林樂夫大律師:好,唔該晒。我冇其他問題,唔該。 15 陳熾龍大律師:主席,如果時間容許嘅話,可唔可以--我今日代表梁秉基(譯音)先生嘅, 16 如果可以嘅話想簡單問多兩個問題,幾分鐘嘅啫,如果時間容許嘅話。 17 陸啟康法官:你問幾耐? 18 陳熾龍大律師:兩三個問題,幾分鐘就可以,如果時間容許。 19 陸啟康法官:我畀你問。 20 陳熾龍大律師:多謝主席。羅先生,你證供都提及過,你係陪同宏業嘅工人一齊去,你係協 21 助佢哋去關呢個--去做呢個消防放水缸呢個行為,咁去到呢個加壓泵房嘅時候,你 22 哋一齊入去㗎嘛? 23 羅國瑞先生:係。 24 陳熾龍大律師:我想問佢哋有冇畀咩嘢指示係話佢哋想做啲咩嘢?即係佢哋係就咁同講話佢 25 想放水,定還是有同你講話麻煩你幫手閂咗乜嘢掣咁樣? 26 羅國瑞先生:佢話放水。 27 梁秉基代表:佢係淨係同你講放水嘅? 28 羅國瑞先生:唔。 29 梁秉基代表:好,唔該晒。冇其他問題。 30 許偉強資深大律師:主席,就有兩個問題想澄清下嘅。羅師傅,就我想問一問你,就係根據 31 你嘅證人口供,剛才我哋睇過,喺17 段嗰度有講,雖然你同我哋講而家嗰個實際 32 嘅時間可能你真係唔記得,根據你口供應該係就住呢八座,你協助呢啲放水工程應 33 該係一路做到差唔多8 月份,大概差唔多係8 月份,根據你嘅口供。我想問下呢八 34 座你協助宏業進行呢啲放水工程之後,你仲有冇再去過呢一個消防嘅加壓泵房? 35 羅國瑞先生:冇。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第七天

53 本謄本由Epiq 編製 許偉強資深大律師:另外一個問題,就係睇番你嘅證人口供第21 段,剛才杜大律師都有問 1 過你,關於呢一個當時你哋協助放水嗰個工作嗰䭅程序,呢度你都話先就就係去咗 2 嗰個主要嘅泵房先,然後就去天台,跟住就先至去呢個加壓泵房,我都有問過李師 3 傅關於呢個程序,其實八座係唔係都會有唔同嘅,即係未必係一定係梗咗呢個程序 4 嘅,咁李師傅就話八座都可能會唔同嘅,你同唔同意佢嘅講法? 5 羅國瑞先生:同意。 6 許偉強資深大律師:最後一個問題,就係就住你剛才講話收到第一個工作單,就因為你考慮 7 過呢啲咁嘅工作係唔係應該由一啲消防承辦商去做呢,所以提出咗疑問嘅,你記 8 得? 9 羅國瑞先生:係,記得。 10 許偉強資深大律師:咁你當時去到個管理處提出過呢樣嘢,係咪? 11 羅國瑞先生:係,係。 12 許偉強資深大律師:當時管理處係唔係除咗駱小姐,仲有其他職員喺度㗎? 13 羅國瑞先生:仲有其他職員嘅。 14 許偉強資深大律師:你記唔記得你係唔係都有--除咗駱小姐之外,都會有同其他職員提過呢 15 一個咁嘅考慮㗎? 16 羅國瑞先生:提過咁又唔記得。 17 許偉強資深大律師:記唔記? 18 羅國瑞先生:記唔到。 19 許偉強資深大律師:記唔到。我就想問下,你實際上當時同駱小姐,即係實際上,你講嗰啲 20 字眼、用字,你而家仲記唔記得,定係隔咗咁耐唔係好記得自己講過嗰啲字眼係乜 21 嘢? 22 羅國瑞先生:忘記咗嘞,咁耐。 23 許偉強資深大律師:唔該。我冇其他問題。 24 陸啟康法官:唔該晒。冇其他問題? 25 杜淦堃資深大律師:羅師傅,為咗公平起見,我都想同你澄清番一樣嘢,李師傅頭先畀口供 26 嘅時候,我咪畀你睇過個證人供詞其中一段話佢同你講過呢啲工程係熄掣呢啲嘢要 27 由消防承辦商做嘅,咁佢嘅證供就係佢話你其實即刻答佢話「收到單就做」,當時 28 係唔係咁,佢一問你你已經即刻答佢,定係你走咗去問咗寫字樓先? 29 羅國瑞先生:梗係問咗寫字樓先。 30 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係佢同你講完之後,你係冇即刻回應? 31 羅國瑞先生:冇,冇。 32 杜淦堃資深大律師:冇。 33 陸啟康法官:好多謝晒羅先生你嚟到聽證會畀證供。我作出同一嘅呼籲,咁就我唔需要再重 34 複。我哋押後到2 點15 分繼續。 35

36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第七天

54 本謄本由Epiq 編製

1 13 時08 分置邦興業有限公司電工證人羅國瑞先生作供完畢 2

3 13 時08 分聆訊押後 4 14 時15 分聆訊恢復 5

6 14 時15 分置邦興業有限公司高級管理員證人黃百盛先生開始作供 7

8 陸啟康法官:係,杜律師。 9 杜淦堃資深大律師:主席,下一位證人係黃百盛先生。黃先生,午安,你見到你前面有一份 10 聲明,麻煩你企起身讀出嚟。 11 黃百盛先生:本人黃百盛聲明,本人所作的證供,盡本人所知、所悉及所信,均屬真實。 12 杜淦堃資深大律師:麻煩你坐低。黃先生,你係現時都係受僱於置邦興業,任職高級嘅保安 13 員,係咪呀? 14 黃百盛先生:係。 15 杜淦堃資深大律師:喺大火之前你都係喺宏福苑工作喇? 16 黃百盛先生:係。 17 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋見到你提交咗幾份證供嘅,第一份就係你僱主律師為你準備提交畀 18 委員會嘅證供。而你同警方都係落咗兩份口供嘅。 19 黃百盛先生:係。 20 杜淦堃資深大律師:相信你都可以確認呢三份嘅文件裏面嘅內容都係準確,係咪? 21 黃百盛先生:係。 22 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想睇一睇你畀委員會嘅證供。第7 段就提到其實你係喺2009 年嘅6 23 月份就係入職擔任宏福苑嘅高級管理員喇。 24 黃百盛先生:係。 25 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係負責保安工作喇? 26 黃百盛先生:係。 27 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢個係一路到火災嗰一日嘅。 28 黃百盛先生:係,冇錯。 29 杜淦堃資深大律師:所以你係宏福苑工作咗好耐㗎嘞。 30 黃百盛先生:係喇。 31 杜淦堃資深大律師:第8 段就講到其中一樣嘢,就係你主要係管理處嘅控制室嗰度工作,係 32 咪呀? 33 黃百盛先生:係,冇錯。 34 杜淦堃資深大律師:嗰個控制室喺屋苑邊個位? 35 黃百盛先生:喺宏仁閣第1 座3 號位。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第七天

55 本謄本由Epiq 編製 杜淦堃資深大律師:同一段你講到你負責屋苑嘅一般保安工作。 1 黃百盛先生:係。 2 杜淦堃資深大律師:包括處理屋苑住戶嘅投訴同埋突發事件,同埋協助編排更表等等嘅。 3 黃百盛先生:係。 4 杜淦堃資深大律師:就投訴嚟講,多數居民嘅投訴係咪都係口頭打嚟控制室㗎? 5 黃百盛先生:用電話打嚟。 6 杜淦堃資深大律師:係。另外,我哋知道你哋係有電郵嘅,有時佢哋都用電郵投訴,係咪? 7 黃百盛先生:係,但係電郵嗰啲係屬於裏面文職嗰啲人員睇到,我哋睇唔到。 8 杜淦堃資深大律師:所以就你嚟講,你最主要處理嘅投訴就係打嚟喇。 9 黃百盛先生:係嘞。 10 杜淦堃資深大律師:同埋你會撞到啲街坊,係咪? 11 黃百盛先生:係嘞。 12 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,相信你做咗咁多年,其實好多街坊都識你喇,係咪? 13 黃百盛先生:係,冇錯。 14 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想同你睇一睇幾類型投訴嘅,當時大家都知道宏福苑做緊大維修,你 15 睇你嘅證人供詞第10 段,如果睇落去。提到你接過一啲有關吸煙嘅投--工人吸煙 16 嘅投訴,係咪? 17 黃百盛先生:係嘞。 18 杜淦堃資深大律師:而收到啲投訴之後你會記錄低,係咪? 19 黃百盛先生:冇錯。 20 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢份記錄就喺有一個叫大維修投訴紀錄嗰度喇,我哋之前都睇過嘅。 21 黃百盛先生:大維修紀錄簿嗰度。 22 杜淦堃資深大律師:係嘞,Bundle C1-1/749 頁,你見到,如果放大少少呢,你都會見 23 到其實有啲都係關食煙事嘅?譬如5 號。 24 黃百盛先生:係。 25 杜淦堃資深大律師:工人喺棚架時候食煙,落去37、38 都同食煙有關嘅。你好多時喺跟進 26 嗰度我哋都見到你寫住就係「通知宏業」嘅。 27 黃百盛先生:係。 28 杜淦堃資深大律師:基本上你管理處收到嘅投訴,其實係因為工人係宏業嘅工人,係咪?所 29 以你都會交畀佢哋處理? 30 黃百盛先生:係,冇錯。 31 杜淦堃資深大律師:你知唔知道宏業點樣跟進? 32 黃百盛先生:佢淨係通知我「得嘞,佢會知道嘞」。 33 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔。即係至於宏業點樣處理工人吸煙嘅問題,其實你知唔知㗎? 34 黃百盛先生:唔清楚。 35 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔。你供詞同一段講過話,其實你都親自聽見有住戶喺管理處外討論吸 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第七天

56 本謄本由Epiq 編製 煙嘅問題,咁你就去宏仁閣視察過嘅,係咪?你記得嘛? 1 黃百盛先生:記得。 2 杜淦堃資深大律師:係囉。你見到工人食煙嘞,當時,係咪? 3 黃百盛先生:係嘞。 4 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁你叫佢唔好食喇,你... 5 黃百盛先生:大聲喝上去,因為當時佢喺棚架度,1 樓至2 樓之間。 6 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔嗯。咁其實你都係勸佢啫? 7 黃百盛先生:係,冇錯。 8 杜淦堃資深大律師:你會唔會同意咁講呀?居民有居民投訴,你哋又同咗宏業講,但係似乎 9 我哋見唔到喺大維修期間,食煙呢個情況係有改善嘅,你同唔同意呢個講法? 10 黃百盛先生:同意。 11 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁你作為物業管理公司,其實你哋自己內部或者同你嘅上司有冇討論過 12 「喂,我不停同宏業講,但係個情況都係一樣,你哋駛唔使做啲其他嘅措施或者點 13 同宏業再跟進」,有冇咁做過呢? 14 黃百盛先生:冇。 15 杜淦堃資深大律師:點解冇咁做? 16 黃百盛先生:因為宏業嘅工人係屬於宏業管理嘅,但係我哋係置邦嘅,就唔同關係公司,所 17 以我哋交番畀宏業跟進就最重要。 18 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁你哋公司做嘅嘢好似傳聲筒咁咋喎,同唔同意? 19 黃百盛先生:同意。 20 杜淦堃資深大律師:另外一樣嘢,我想問你嘅,就係後樓梯--走火樓梯嗰啲生口,你知我講 21 緊咩嘢喇? 22 黃百盛先生:明白。 23 杜淦堃資深大律師:每5 層就有個生口。 24 黃百盛先生:係嘞,冇錯,5 樓,10 樓。 25 杜淦堃資深大律師:大家都知道有呢啲生口,當時有冇居民同你提過話呢個危險呀? 26 黃百盛先生:冇講過。冇收過任何嘢。 27 杜淦堃資深大律師:你哋自己覺唔覺得有危險? 28 黃百盛先生:冇咁樣意識到。 29 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔。所以管理處都冇跟進過嘞全完,係咪呀? 30 黃百盛先生:冇。 31 杜淦堃資深大律師:另外一樣嘢,我想問你嘅就係喺你畀警方嘅口供,你都有提過每座地下 32 泵房有鎖匙喇,我哋知道佢係放喺大堂嘅座頭。 33 黃百盛先生:係。 34 杜淦堃資深大律師:管理處都係有後備匙嘅,係咪? 35 黃百盛先生:有後備匙。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第七天

57 本謄本由Epiq 編製 杜淦堃資深大律師:你嘅口供講話如果同事巡樓嘅時候發覺加壓泵房冇鎖就會鎖番,係咪? 1 黃百盛先生:係。 2 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢個都係你哋工作指引畀員工嘅指示喇,係咪? 3 黃百盛先生:冇錯。 4 杜淦堃資深大律師:係咪你哋所有嘅前線同事都知道呢個職責? 5 黃百盛先生:全部知道。 6 杜淦堃資深大律師:據你所知,喺大維修期間,呢個情況有冇發生過?即係冇鎖番個泵房。 7 黃百盛先生:冇人通知過,即係冇。 8 杜淦堃資深大律師:另外一樣嘢,我想你幫幫手嘅,就係你嘅證人供詞亦都提咗處理消防設 9 備嘅工作,我想你幫一幫我哋嘅就係有啲維修工作單嘅,係咪? 10 黃百盛先生:唔。 11 杜淦堃資深大律師:你有處理過呢啲文件,係咪? 12 黃百盛先生:有。 13 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔。你亦都提過,你話你有時會收到座頭嘅報告話啲消防設備壞咗嘅, 14 係咪?而當值嘅人員包括你就會通知消防設備嘅承辦商,係咪咁呀? 15 黃百盛先生:啱。 16 杜淦堃資深大律師:你自己有冇收過呢啲投訴,有冇處理過呢一啲嘅維修? 17 黃百盛先生:譬如消防喉漏水呀,咁我就有。 18 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔,咁都係你負責通知宏泰,係咪? 19 黃百盛先生:我會通知工程主任,然後通知宏泰嚟維修。 20 杜淦堃資深大律師:工程主任就林先生,係咪? 21 黃百盛先生:係嘞。 22 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想問下你自己,你知唔知道其實處理呢啲消防裝置係要承辦商先可以 23 處理㗎? 24 黃百盛先生:心裏面知道。 25 杜淦堃資深大律師:你點知道㗎? 26 黃百盛先生:嗯? 27 杜淦堃資深大律師:你點知㗎,邊個同你講㗎? 28 黃百盛先生:呢啲基本知識嚟㗎嘛。 29 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係你都講唔到邊個同你講,係咪呀? 30 黃百盛先生:嗄。 31 杜淦堃資深大律師:總之你知道嘅? 32 黃百盛先生:知道。 33 杜淦堃資深大律師:你嘅證人供詞裏面都提過呢,關於消防水缸排水呢件事嘅,喺第14 段 34 開始有講,見唔見到? 35 黃百盛先生:見到。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第七天

58 本謄本由Epiq 編製 杜淦堃資深大律師:你當時亦都有處理過一啲嘅工作單嘅,偶爾,係咪? 1 黃百盛先生:係,處理過兩張。 2 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,出過,我哋睇過嗰啲工作單嘅。 3 黃百盛先生:係。 4 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁你嗰啲工作單就通常發畀屋苑裏面你嗰兩位同事,羅師傅同李師傅, 5 係咪? 6 黃百盛先生:嗄,嗄,冇錯。 7 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔。你出啲單畀佢,佢哋會唔會走番嚟同你澄清或者佢問你「喂,應唔 8 應該做?或者點做㗎?」 9 黃百盛先生:未有打過嚟。 10 杜淦堃資深大律師:總之你出,佢哋就會做嘅? 11 黃百盛先生:係嘞。 12 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋知道你發出過我哋而家搵到嗰三張工作單裏面呢,有兩張係你發出 13 嘅,相信你睇過喇,係咪? 14 黃百盛先生:係。 15 杜淦堃資深大律師:喺H2,麻煩,6780 頁。6780 同埋之後嗰頁6781,你睇一睇。 16 黃百盛先生:係,冇錯。 17 杜淦堃資深大律師:我相信你睇過兩張工作單喇。邊個叫你出呢個工作單㗎流程上高?唔係 18 你自己決定㗎喇,係咪? 19 黃百盛先生:通常由宏業通知裏面,然後我哋就--裏面就叫佢哋出呢張工作單嘅。 20 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔嗯。我想問下你出呢啲同消防有關嘅工作單時候,你有冇聽過啲師傅 21 會問話「喂,同消防有關,要搵承辦商」? 22 黃百盛先生:冇聽過。 23 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢啲講法你冇聽過,係咪? 24 黃百盛先生:冇聽過。 25 杜淦堃資深大律師:你出咗兩張單之後有冇跟進嗰兩張單做成點呀?幾時做完,係咪你嘅工 26 作範圍? 27 黃百盛先生:係,冇錯。 28 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔,咁就呢兩張單而言,你收番師傅交番嚟時候,我哋見到下低有一個 29 「查核者」嘅,嗰個簽名係邊個? 30 黃百盛先生:係我。 31 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁你點去查核佢哋有冇做完或者幾時做完呀? 32 黃百盛先生:我係以師傅--李師傅同羅師傅簽咗名為核實。 33 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係佢哋簽番嚟,你就認為做完嘞? 34 黃百盛先生:係嘞。 35 杜淦堃資深大律師:所以佢簽完名,你就簽名? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第七天

59 本謄本由Epiq 編製 黃百盛先生:係嘞。 1 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔,即係你冇獨立地去核實係咪真係有做完嘅,係咪?咁講啱唔啱? 2 黃百盛先生:啱。 3 杜淦堃資深大律師:跟住你個供詞就講到大火當日嗰個情況嘅,你話其實喺宏昌閣個座頭嘅 4 鍾瑞霞用對講機講話起火,係咪? 5 黃百盛先生:係嘞。 6 杜淦堃資深大律師:你就好快趕到大堂,係咪? 7 黃百盛先生:唔。 8 杜淦堃資深大律師:你有冇走出去睇下個火勢當時即刻? 9 黃百盛先生:我走出去睇個火勢嗰陣時,已經差唔多去到天台燒到去。 10 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔。 11 黃百盛先生:所以我即刻就返去座頭嗰度,就由1 樓就拍到去6 樓就拍門叫啲人儘快走咁解 12 啫。 13 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係你由1 樓走到上6 樓? 14 黃百盛先生:嗄。 15 杜淦堃資深大律師:你走上去嗰陣樓梯有冇煙㗎? 16 黃百盛先生:冇,只不過見到玻璃--出面就已經燒緊,所以我哋儘快就走去1 至6 樓。 17 杜淦堃資深大律師:如果你去到6 樓,你應該經過5 樓嗰個生口? 18 黃百盛先生:嗄。 19 杜淦堃資深大律師:見唔見到有煙入嚟嗰度? 20 黃百盛先生:暫時未見到。 21 杜淦堃資深大律師:你跑過去所以未見到? 22 黃百盛先生:未見到我走過嗰陣時。 23 杜淦堃資深大律師:去到6 樓,跟住點呀?講一講畀我哋聽。 24 黃百盛先生:去到6 樓之後呢,就叫咗6 樓嗰啲住戶走,跟住我又打開咗嗰個防煙門,叫佢 25 哋盡快落去,點知啲煙呢,不斷咁攻上嚟,我哋呀跟住落去,落番去1 樓座頭地 26 下,叫人哋疏散出去嘞,要走嘞。 27 杜淦堃資深大律師:跟住呢,你自己呢? 28 黃百盛先生:跟住我喺座頭留咗一陣間,見啲火舌一路去到5 座、4 座,咁我都要走嘞,當 29 時我走嗰陣時仲有電嘅,電梯亦都郁得。 30 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白。 31 黃百盛先生:跟住有啲住戶喺31 樓落嚟都可以走,都可以落到地下。 32 杜淦堃資深大律師:你離開嘅時候係幾多點?你有冇留意到? 33 黃百盛先生:唔記得嘞,大概三點零鐘,3 點05 分左右,3 點05 分至3 點10 分左右。 34 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白。黃先生,唔該晒你,我冇其他問題。主席。 35 陸啟康法官:唔該,其他涉事方。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第七天

60 本謄本由Epiq 編製 孫靖乾資深大律師:主席,兩位委員,我會有啲問題問一問黃先生。 1 陸啟康法官:孫大律師。 2

3 孫靖乾資深大律師:黃先生,想睇番你個證人供詞,喺WS2 嘅第1238 頁,可能有少少嘅技 4 術嘅--需要我哋要等一等。 5 陸啟康法官:冇問題。 6 孫靖乾資深大律師:好,咁我就想同你睇一睇第8 段裏面,第8 段就你去--我哋去睇一睇番 7 第1238 頁先,好,咁可能要麻煩放大少少嘞。好,黃先生,咁如果你睇呢一度 8 呢,你有講過就係話你會按照管理處嘅需要,第三行開始,就協助一啲雜項嘅工 9 作,就係包括出嗰啲維修工作單,就係頭先杜大律師問你嘅嗰啲工作單。 10 黃百盛先生:冇錯。 11 孫靖乾資深大律師:係,然後你亦都話會向你發出呢啲咁嘅指示嘅管理處嘅人員係會包括, 12 譬如係鄭芷盈小姐,文員就係駱倩盈小姐嘞,又或者係其他管理處當值嘅職員嘅, 13 係咪? 14 黃百盛先生:係。 15 孫靖乾資深大律師:除此之外,頭先你亦都有講過就係話針對而家關於嗰個消防水缸嗰兩張 16 由你去發出嘅嗰個工作單呢,我想問呢個係宏業--頭先你講宏業就係去搵,係宏業 17 直接去搵你吖,定係話其實都係宏業通過一啲管理處嘅人員,然之後就係同你講 18 㗎? 19 黃百盛先生:係宏業通知裏面管理處人員同我講嘅,如果係宏業叫我開嘅話呢,我唔會開 20 嘅,因為佢唔係我哋公司人員。 21 孫靖乾資深大律師:明白,咁即係話應該就係管理處嘅人員,即係包括你呢度提到的譬如可 22 能係鄭小姐或者駱小姐,佢哋收到宏業嘅要求,... 23 黃百盛先生:係嘞。 24 孫靖乾資深大律師:咁然後佢就會同黃生你講,咁你就會去發出嗰個工作單嘞? 25 黃百盛先生:冇錯。 26 孫靖乾資深大律師:係,好。我想問如果譬如話係經過鄭小姐或者駱小姐等等去發出,即係 27 叫你去發出嗰個工作單,你會發出工作單嘅時候,如果係阿林先生,即係講緊林文 28 欣先生,如果佢係喺宏福苑工作嘅時候,有冇一個機制係會話畀或者匯報番畀林先 29 生聽㗎? 30 黃百盛先生:唔清楚,冇呢樣。 31 孫靖乾資深大律師:唔清楚嘅,係。跟住我就想同你了解下就係你喺呢個第8 段嘅最屘嗰四 32 行亦都有講,就話假如管理處係收到座頭嘅報告,係喺巡樓嘅時發現嗰個消防嘅裝 33 置或者嗰個設備嘅外部係有損壞,例如係個消防喉轆突然間出現滴水嘅情況,咁就 34 會係管理處當時在場嘅職員,有時係你自己,就會話畀工程部嘅工程主任林文欣先 35 生聽,就等佢去聯絡嗰個宏福苑嗰個消防裝置承辦商宏泰嘅。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第七天

61 本謄本由Epiq 編製 黃百盛先生:係,冇錯。 1 孫靖乾資深大律師:第一樣嘢我就想問一問,就係呢一個咁樣嘅做法呢,係有冇一啲嘅指引 2 話咁樣做?定係話係純粹係你哋自己即係遇到咁嘅情況,你就自己諗住用呢個方面 3 去做,即係有冇一個指引或者有冇話係有一啲嘅流程,話你如果咁嘅情況,遇到消 4 防裝置係有咁嘅損壞,你就要咁樣做嘅? 5 黃百盛先生:冇。 6 孫靖乾資深大律師:即係冇一個流程? 7 黃百盛先生:只不過係工程嘅嘢,我哋係負責林生--係負責林--由林生負責,所以我一定要 8 report 番畀林生聽咁解啫。 9 孫靖乾資深大律師:明白,所以你意思都係話因為係牽涉一啲嘅工程,尤其係一啲嘅消防裝 10 置喇。 11 黃百盛先生:係嘞。 12 孫靖乾資深大律師:你好自然地你就會同林生講? 13 黃百盛先生:係。 14 孫靖乾資深大律師:然之後,林生就可以--亦都佢就要--就可以再去聯絡番呢個宏泰? 15 黃百盛先生:係,冇錯。 16 孫靖乾資深大律師:係,明白。好,如果係咁,當林生唔喺度,即係話係喺2025 年4 月份 17 至到9 月份嘅時間,咁又會係點呢?會係同邊個講呢? 18 黃百盛先生:我會report 番主任或者經理。 19 孫靖乾資深大律師:主任或者經理就係黎先生,主任係邊位呀即係? 20 黃百盛先生:鄭芷盈小姐。 21 孫靖乾資深大律師:就係鄭小姐,明白。我想問當時嚟講,如果據你自己本人所知,譬如係 22 講緊2025 年,有冇試過一啲情況真係有發現過嗰個消防裝置有一啲損壞,然之後 23 你同林生,又或者係黎經理,又或者鄭小--鄭主任去講,有冇咁樣嘅情況發生過? 24 黃百盛先生:冇收過任何嘢。 25 孫靖乾資深大律師:冇收過任何嘢。好,咁我跟住就要再跟進番,就係頭先你就有講就係話 26 宏業就係應該經過管理處嘅職員,就係講話需要管理處去派人去協助就係嗰個消防 27 水缸放水嘅情況,咁喺嗰陣時你記唔記得係邊一個同你講?即係管理處邊一位職員 28 同你講? 29 黃百盛先生:唔記得。 30 孫靖乾資深大律師:唔記得。咁你會唔會都記得當時同你講嘅時候,係咪應該就係咁啱嗰時 31 林先生就係唔喺宏福苑,呢個你定係唔記得? 32 黃百盛先生:唔記得。 33 孫靖乾資深大律師:好。咁我跟住就要想問一問,就係另外你嗰個證人供詞我要問多其中一 34 段裏面有啲嘅問題。我哋可能睇番頭先嘅第1240 頁,第1240 頁如果我哋睇一睇 35 第14(b)嗰段,第14(b)嗰段你就有講過,就係話我哋見到你就係講過話「當 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第七天

62 本謄本由Epiq 編製 時如果工程人員係沒有拒絕協助,當值管理處職員就會發出相關嘅工作嘅工作單 1 嘅」。如果我哋睇番上面(a)嗰度,你係話「管理處收到宏業嘅請求之後,係會聯 2 絡工程部嘅嗰個電工,詢問佢哋係咪可以提供協助」嘅。我想問其實宏業有請求過 3 工程部或者請求過呢個管理處係去協助,係咪只係發生過一次,淨係關於消防--即 4 係淨係針對消防水缸呢個事宜發生過? 5 黃百盛先生:係。 6 孫靖乾資深大律師:係。咁喺呢一個宏業作出呢個要求之前,有冇試過係有一啲其他嘅一啲 7 嘅承辦商,係要求過管理處或者係一啲嘅工程部嘅羅先生或者李先生去協助,有冇 8 咁嘅情況出現過? 9 黃百盛先生:我記憶之中就冇。 10 孫靖乾資深大律師:記憶中冇,所以呢個係--即係其實都係唯一一次,或者係都係唯一係針 11 對呢一件事,即係消防消缸有發生過呢個咁嘅要求? 12 黃百盛先生:係,係,冇錯。 13 孫靖乾資深大律師:係咪?係。所以其實都冇一個流程話,如果咁嘅情況,係咪要問過個師 14 傅,因為呢個其實都係唯一一次,但係你記得好似就係應該係會有問過啲師傅,係 15 咪咁嘅情況? 16 黃百盛先生:係。 17 孫靖乾資深大律師:咁唔係你本人去問嘅? 18 黃百盛先生:我本人去問嘅。 19 孫靖乾資深大律師:你本人去問嘅,okay。你去問嘅時候,你就知道都係關於嗰個消防水 20 缸? 21 黃百盛先生:係。 22 孫靖乾資深大律師:咁頭先你作供嘅時候,你就講過話你都知道一啲嘅消防嘅裝置一定係要 23 持牌嘅人士或者係承辦商先至可以去處理嘅?係。你頭先個講法就話你覺得--杜大 24 律師問你點解會得知,你話覺得呢個係一個基本嘅常識,記得喇嘛? 25 黃百盛先生:(點頭) 26 孫靖乾資深大律師:係。咁我就想問下,咁頭先你亦都有講就話,工程部嘅羅先生同李先 27 生,你同佢講嘅時候,佢哋就--根據你證供,佢哋就冇再去問或者係去提出一啲嘅 28 任何嘅... 29 黃百盛先生:佢哋冇拒絕工作。 30 孫靖乾資深大律師:冇拒絕,係。咁我就想問下你就係一個問題嘅啫,你話其實你都知道呢 31 啲消防裝置就係應該係持牌人士先至可以去做,咁撇除話羅先生同埋李先生,佢哋 32 有冇拒絕或者有冇問,咁你去問佢哋或者要求佢哋會唔會做呢樣嘢嘅時候,你自己 33 有冇諗過--因為呢個係牽涉一個消防嘅裝置,其實係唔係好應該係由呢個工程部嘅 34 同事去協助或者去處理嘅?有冇諗過? 35 黃百盛先生:心裏面有諗過。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第七天

63 本謄本由Epiq 編製 孫靖乾資深大律師:心裏面有諗過。 1 黃百盛先生:但係羅師傅同李師傅佢都冇拒絕,咁咪照做囉,咁解咋嘛。 2 孫靖乾資深大律師:咁即係你心裏面有諗過,但係就因為啲師傅冇拒絕? 3 黃百盛先生:嗄。 4 孫靖乾資深大律師:咁你心裏面有諗過嘅時候,無論係管理處邊位同事同你轉達呢個宏業嘅 5 嗰個要求都好,你有冇諗過去問番嗰位同事,叫佢同呢個宏業反映下?有冇諗過應 6 該? 7 黃百盛先生:冇。 8 孫靖乾資深大律師:唔。同埋你之前有講過,就係話如果遇到一啲嘅消防裝置係損壞嘅時 9 候,咁你都係會聯絡番即係一係就係林先生,或者如果佢唔喺度嘅時候就係黎經 10 理,或者就係鄭主任,就等佢哋可以再去聯絡番呢個宏泰嘅。所以今次係牽涉到就 11 係有關呢個消防水缸嘅情況,咁你有冇諗過係要同佢哋是但一位係去講番個情況, 12 或者問下佢哋係咪應該要去再聯絡番呢個宏泰? 13 黃百盛先生:冇呢樣,冇。 14 孫靖乾資深大律師:即係冇咁樣諗到? 15 黃百盛先生:冇。 16 孫靖乾資深大律師:係。 17 黃百盛先生:純粹真係羅師傅同李師傅冇拒絕過,就照做。 18 孫靖乾資深大律師:明白,明白。好,可能最後同你澄清多一樣嘢,即係應該據你嘅證供嚟 19 講,就你自己本人就從來冇直接係同宏泰去接觸? 20 黃百盛先生:冇。 21 孫靖乾資深大律師:係。咁而係據你所知,都係一係就係通過林先生、黎經理或者鄭主任, 22 佢哋就再去接觸宏泰?係。 23 好,唔該晒,主席,我冇其他嘅問題。 24 陸啟康法官:其他涉事方有冇其他問題?如果冇,置邦。 25 許偉強資深大律師:主席,有少少覆問嘅。 26 黃生,啱啱就住委員會大律師杜大律師問過你,有關管理處處理吸煙投訴嗰個 27 問題,我想問一問,就係啱啱你回答杜律師嘅時候都有講到,就係你哋會同宏業嗰 28 度跟進? 29 黃百盛先生:係。 30 許偉強資深大律師:咁而你作為管理人員嘅,如果你見到有人食煙,亦都會當場作出制止、 31 勸喻咁喇? 32 黃百盛先生:係,冇錯。 33 許偉強資深大律師:我想畀你睇一睇就係鄭小姐,即係物業主任鄭小姐嗰份口供入面有提過 34 嘅,呢個問題,喺佢嘅第50 頁,最後嗰四行喥,黃生你睇一睇呢度就係鄭小姐講 35 「我及黎先生會向管理員作出指示,如果管理員在巡查當中注意到有建築工人吸 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第七天

64 本謄本由Epiq 編製 煙,管理員應該要求建築工人停止吸煙」,呢個剛才你有同我哋提過嘅,「同時我 1 理解管理員也在宏福苑的公眾位置貼上『禁止吸煙』的通告」,呢個通告你係咪都 2 有見過? 3 黃百盛先生:有。 4 許偉強資深大律師:咁你有冇都幫手貼呢啲通告? 5 黃百盛先生:冇。 6 許偉強資深大律師:冇,好,唔該晒。冇嘞,唔該。 7 陸啟康法官:有冇其他問題?如果冇,就唔該晒你,黃生,咁你可以作供完畢,唔該。 8

9 14 時44 分置邦興業有限公司高級管理員證人黃百盛先生作供完畢 10 14 時44 分置邦興業有限公司工程主任證人林文欣先生開始作供 11

12 杜淦堃資深大律師:主席,下一位證人係林文欣先生。 13 林先生,你好。 14 林文欣先生:係。 15 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,麻煩你將你面前嘅聲明企起身讀出嚟。 16 林文欣先生:本人林文欣聲明,本人所作出的證供,盡本人所知、所悉及所信,均屬真實。 17 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔該晒你,林先生,請坐。你現時都係受僱於置邦興業做工程主任,係 18 咪? 19 林文欣先生:係。 20 杜淦堃資深大律師:你要大聲少少。 21 林文欣先生:冇錯,係,係。 22 杜淦堃資深大律師:你喺大火之前係喺宏福苑工作,係咪? 23 林文欣先生:係。 24 杜淦堃資深大律師:你提供咗兩份供詞,一份就係你畀委員會嘅證供,另外一份就係你向警 25 方提供嘅證供。相信你都會同意,兩份都係準確? 26 林文欣先生:同意。 27 杜淦堃資深大律師:你喺你嘅證供裏面第三段提到,如果我哋去一去,呢度提到你喺19 年 28 7 月開始做你而家份工作,2025 年4 月,其實你離開過嘅。 29 林文欣先生:係。 30 杜淦堃資深大律師:到10 月8 號先至係再一次加入你而家嘅公司,係咪? 31 林文欣先生:冇錯。 32 杜淦堃資深大律師:而你一路嘅工作地點都係喺宏福苑嘅? 33 林文欣先生:係。 34 杜淦堃資深大律師:你持有電工牌嘅,係咪? 35 林文欣先生:有。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第七天

65 本謄本由Epiq 編製 杜淦堃資深大律師:都超過十年,係咪? 1 林文欣先生:冇錯。 2 杜淦堃資深大律師:你嘅職責除咗包括處理住戶日常嘅投訴同埋維修之外,仲當然你會係羅 3 師傅同埋李師傅嘅上司,係咪? 4 林文欣先生:冇錯。 5 杜淦堃資深大律師:一啲日常維修嘅投訴,包括啲乜嘢?畀啲例子我哋,得唔得? 6 林文欣先生:日常投訴,即係譬如家居嗰啲,譬如漏水、單位入面有時會冇電,同埋有啲叫 7 做室內嘅--我哋啲污水喉就喺室內嘅,咁有時有啲滲漏,咁我都要去上去跟進。如 8 果係公家嘅設施或者公家嘅喉管屬於我哋嘅,咁我要儘快出呢個招標,咁等承辦商 9 快啲嚟做,咁解決咗單位嘅投訴咁解嘅。 10 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想你幫一幫我哋,如果我哋睇番你畀警方嗰份口供,喺Bundle C1- 11 2/1217 頁第5 段,呢個係--我哋睇下之前嗰頁開始,你呢度講到個水缸嘅問題, 12 你話你喺2025 年11 月21 日你當值期間,你曾經睇過宏建閣天台水缸,有兩個 13 水缸,係咪?見唔見到?第5 段最屘嗰行。 14 林文欣先生:見到。 15 杜淦堃資深大律師:分別為食水缸同消防水缸。 16 林文欣先生:係。 17 杜淦堃資深大律師:你話你嘅工作係為咗檢查水缸嗰個閘掣老化嘅情況,跟住睇落去。涉及 18 日後時間更換啲配件嘅,係咪? 19 林文欣先生:係。 20 杜淦堃資深大律師:你話你嘅工作唔涉及消防水泵掣嘅裝置嘅維修,係咪? 21 林文欣先生:唔。 22 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想問你嘅係,如果你睇咗呢段,我想問下你水缸漏水嘅問題,因為你 23 到最屘你話,你喺工作期間,第5 段最屘嗰行,「並冇收到有涉及水缸漏水或天台 24 滲漏嘅任何投訴嘅」,見到嘛? 25 林文欣先生:見到。 26 杜淦堃資深大律師:如果有--因為你係工程主管,你一定知嘅,係咪? 27 林文欣先生:呢單嘢其實我唔知個喎,其實有滲漏嗰啲我唔知。 28 杜淦堃資深大律師:如果有人投訴,你就一定知,係咪? 29 林文欣先生:係。 30 杜淦堃資深大律師:如果冇--你嘅意思係如果冇人投訴,你就未必一定知,係咪? 31 林文欣先生:係。 32 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁你或者你嘅師傅會唔會定期上天台檢查個水缸有冇漏水? 33 林文欣先生:冇個喎。 34 杜淦堃資深大律師:冇㗎?咁漏水你哋會唔會知?定係你哋都唔知? 35 林文欣先生:唔係,通常如果有呢啲咁嘅投訴或者--就佢哋會--譬如保安員,好簡單,就有 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第七天

66 本謄本由Epiq 編製 --譬如舉個例有客打嚟「喂,我邊度邊度有事」,咁保安員咪去開維修單去了解, 1 咁了解完,跟住就會pass 咗畀工程部,佢開維修單畀師傅去睇,如果真係屬實 2 嘅,咁我兩位師傅會話番畀我聽,究竟係咪真係有事,我先知道有件咁嘅事咁樣。 3 杜淦堃資深大律師:你自己唔會去巡? 4 林文欣先生:我係一個文職嚟㗎嘛,係。 5 杜淦堃資深大律師:得,我想問你就係,如果天台嘅水缸,食水缸也好、消防水缸也好,真 6 係有漏水嘅情況,其實有巡邏嘅保安可能會睇到,你哋啲師傅應該都會睇到嘅,咁 7 講法同唔同意? 8 林文欣先生:都可以嘅。 9 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔。而你嘅理解就係,即係唔計你離開咗一段時間,喺你離開前、離開 10 後,你都冇收過有關水缸漏水呢個投訴,係咪? 11 林文欣先生:係。 12 杜淦堃資深大律師:至於天台滲漏嘅問題,你知唔知道其實係有頂層嘅住戶投訴過天花滲 13 水? 14 林文欣先生:我唔知。 15 杜淦堃資深大律師:我畀你睇一睇一份文件,C1-2/1208 ,你見到呢份文件係報 16 (English Spoken )嘅文件「公眾責任險意外報告書」,你有冇見過呢啲文 17 件? 18 林文欣先生:冇。 19 杜淦堃資深大律師:所以可能你唔知。 20 林文欣先生:因為呢part 嘢... 21 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔係你搞? 22 林文欣先生:...唔係我搞,係。 23 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係我想你幫一幫我就係,你去1211 頁嗰度,似乎就係有啲住戶係喺 24 --住喺31 樓嘅住戶係投訴過,係話有滲水嘅情況嘅,文件似乎係咁講,係咪? 25 林文欣先生:唔。 26 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係當時就冇通知到你,咁講準唔準確? 27 林文欣先生:係。 28 杜淦堃資深大律師:係。而呢個係即係常識嘅問題,31 樓嘅住戶可能屋企有天花有滲水,呢 29 個就唔等於喺天台嘅水缸有漏水嘅,同意嘛? 30 林文欣先生:同意。 31 杜淦堃資深大律師:佢滲水有好多--可能有好多... 32 林文欣先生:好多原因嘅。 33 杜淦堃資深大律師:冇錯。我想同你講嘅,就係因為可能你冇為意,根據宏泰消防嘅黃健華 34 先生喺佢作供,嚟到委員會作供嘅時候,佢就話冇人指示佢水缸出現滲水嘅問題, 35 佢要去檢查,即係個消防水缸。佢哋嘅年檢都睇唔到有消防水缸滲水嘅問題。佢哋 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第七天

67 本謄本由Epiq 編製 年檢睇到有啲咩嘢問題,你應該會知道,係咪? 1 林文欣先生:佢有--如果有,佢有個(English Spoken),咁我先見到。 2 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,所以理論上高亦都係,如果佢呢個講法同你嘅認知應該都係吻合, 3 因為佢話佢冇曾--佢都冇--自己冇檢查到有問題,所以亦都冇報過畀你,咁講啱唔 4 啱? 5 林文欣先生:啱。 6 杜淦堃資深大律師:你嘅供詞第10 段睇番,你話喺大概2025 年3 月左右,有部分嘅水掣 7 可能已經老化,你見到? 8 林文欣先生:唔。 9 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢個係宏業講嘅,係咪? 10 林文欣先生:係。 11 杜淦堃資深大律師:我見到,我諗我哋可以快少少處理個問題,你見到你有啲--如果睇下呢 12 頁嘅最低,你見到有啲註腳嘅,咁就引用一啲文件嘅。啲文件係其實一啲會議紀錄 13 嚟嘅,但係你就冇親身去參加有關嘅會議,呢個你可唔可以--你知唔知? 14 林文欣先生:唔係好明。 15 杜淦堃資深大律師:啲註腳--呢份你嘅證人供詞嚟㗎嘛,係咪? 16 林文欣先生:係。 17 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢啲註腳話「詳見文件7.2、7.26」,你有冇睇過嗰啲文件? 18 林文欣先生:我冇喎。 19 杜淦堃資深大律師:你冇呀?有冇人畀過你睇?你諗清楚。畀你睇一睇。 20 林文欣先生:哦。 21 杜淦堃資深大律師:H1-3/6074 頁,你如果睇一睇呢份文件嘅一開始第1 頁,或者畀佢睇 22 睇。呢啲係一啲大廈維修工程摘要嚟嘅,似乎你就冇參加呢啲會議嘅? 23 林文欣先生:冇,冇,我冇印象,我直頭冇睇過添,呢份。 24 杜淦堃資深大律師:冇睇過。 25 林文欣先生:係。 26 杜淦堃資深大律師:點都好,呢個係你嘅供詞,裏面就引用咗一啲文件,咁你而家同我哋講 27 你冇睇過。但係以你嘅理解,我想問一問你就係,因為你呢一段提到呢個「宏業指 28 有部分水掣可能已經老化嘅問題」,就呢一方面,其實你知唔知㗎咁?你冇睇過呢 29 啲文件。 30 林文欣先生:冇睇過,但係點解我知,就係皆因而家話水掣嘅問題,就係駐場經理同我講, 31 要我(English Spoken )嘅。咁之後就係獨立就有啲要更換閘掣嘅,咁嘅情 32 況。 33 杜淦堃資深大律師:你所指嘅呢啲水掣係消防缸嗰個閘掣,係咪? 34 林文欣先生:唔係。 35 杜淦堃資深大律師:係咩嘢閘掣? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第七天

68 本謄本由Epiq 編製 林文欣先生:係食水--總之有--見到有閘掣有老化嘅就要更換。 1 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁你記憶係呢啲唔涉及消防缸掣?消防缸嘅水掣? 2 林文欣先生:係。 3 杜淦堃資深大律師:係食水掣,你嘅記憶係? 4 林文欣先生:水掣,總之係,有--即係閘掣。 5 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔,咁有幾個消防缸嘅啫? 6 林文欣先生:係。 7 杜淦堃資深大律師:我知道有鹹水缸、食水缸、消防缸。 8 林文欣先生:係。 9 杜淦堃資深大律師:你而家講緊呢個閘掣係咩嘢缸? 10 林文欣先生:佢--我淨係知呢單嘢講老化掣就係見到即係有水掣有老化嘅就要更換。 11 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔。咁你知唔知道嗰啲水掣係連接邊個缸?你知定唔知? 12 林文欣先生:知,知,知。 13 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,唔知唔使估嘅,冇問題嘅。 14 林文欣先生:係,得。 15 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁你可唔可以話畀我哋知? 16 林文欣先生:我見到就係食水同埋沖廁水。 17 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔。你嘅證人供詞裏面,第二個註腳講咗有文件7.21 第14 項,我想 18 你睇一睇6077 頁,第14 項,你冇睇過呢份文件,係咪? 19 林文欣先生:冇,冇。 20 杜淦堃資深大律師:冇,但係你證供有引用。你睇埋第12 段--第12 項。你而家睇完,你 21 知道呢度提及嘅係話宏業會先進行消防水缸嗰個防水工程,為期一個半月,係咪? 22 林文欣先生:唔。 23 杜淦堃資深大律師:佢都係咁講呢個項目唔會影響...(聽不清)安全計劃嘅資助,在未完 24 成批盪前都可以更換呢個炮筒喉,鴻毅表示目前炮筒喉沒有發現問題。跟住你睇下 25 第14 項,雖然你未睇過,你而家睇番知道講緊咩嘢? 26 林文欣先生:我知。 27 杜淦堃資深大律師:好,你繼續睇落去,呢份文件。呢度一路都係施工要做嘅地方,係咪? 28 呢啲文件你平時會睇,係咪? 29 林文欣先生:冇。 30 杜淦堃資深大律師:你平時唔睇嘅? 31 林文欣先生:冇睇過。 32 杜淦堃資深大律師:好,睇番上高第12 同第14。咁你冇睇過裏面講嘅事情,有冇人向你報 33 告或者你知唔知㗎? 34 林文欣先生:我唔知呢個,就係我頭先解釋番點解我要換嗰啲老化閘掣,就係經理pass 咗 35 畀我,叫我(English Spoken)嘅。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第七天

69 本謄本由Epiq 編製 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋見到呢份文件,你睇番抬頭就知道時間,第1 頁,呢個係3 月嘅情 1 況,你未走㗎嘛,係咪? 2 林文欣先生:係。 3 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁所以嗰陣決定去更換,去做呢啲工程你應該知道,係咪?有人同你講 4 番,頭先你所講。 5 林文欣先生:我係返嚟先知個喎。 6 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係3 月嗰陣你冇處理嘅? 7 林文欣先生:冇㗎。 8 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁返嚟嗰陣,你而家喺證人供詞講,你喺11 月左右,你就知道呢個工 9 程有間叫駿昇嘅公司中咗標,係咪? 10 林文欣先生:係。 11 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁樣講啱唔啱?因為呢啲工程唔係包括喺大維修嘅項目之內嘅,所以要 12 分開招標,分開做,係咪? 13 林文欣先生:係。 14 杜淦堃資深大律師:聽你咁講管理公司去招標搵人做呢啲工程,係喺你走咗嘅時候發生,係 15 咪?你有冇參與? 16 林文欣先生:呢個招標應該就好耐其實係,但係到我返嚟先知道話要做。 17 杜淦堃資深大律師:你話「呢個招標好耐」,你咩嘢意思? 18 林文欣先生:呢個招標係我未走之前就有招標嘅。 19 杜淦堃資深大律師:你走之前知唔知道駿昇中咗? 20 林文欣先生:唔知。 21 杜淦堃資深大律師:所以處理嗰個招標嘅時候你喺度嘅,即係準備個招標? 22 林文欣先生:招標係我做嘅。 23 杜淦堃資深大律師:你做嘅? 24 林文欣先生:係,到我走咗,我都未知係邊個中標嘅,完全都唔知。 25 杜淦堃資深大律師:返到嚟就知? 26 林文欣先生:返到嚟就知道有結果話要做。 27 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁駿昇你知唔知道個全名,呢間公司? 28 林文欣先生:而家抄唔到住。 29 杜淦堃資深大律師:你可唔可以話到畀我知,你返到嚟就見到駿昇中咗標,咁呢個更換閘掣 30 嘅工程其實係幾時開始?你記唔記得?你返到嚟做未呀? 31 林文欣先生:幾時開始?略略有籌備嘅咁囉。 32 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔係,你聽住我條問題。你返到嚟11 月,你而家知道駿昇中咗,係 33 咪? 34 林文欣先生:我返嚟10 月嘅。 35 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁11 月嘅時候,你話你知道駿昇中咗,係咪? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第七天

70 本謄本由Epiq 編製 林文欣先生:唔,唔。 1 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁嗰陣開始咗個工程未呀? 2 林文欣先生:未嘅。 3 杜淦堃資深大律師:仲未開始。所以你返到嚟11 月,你喺呢度提到11 月左右,你喺當值期 4 間同埋中標嗰間駿昇去到天台檢測水缸,呢一個係仲未開始工程嘅檢測,係咪? 5 林文欣先生:唔係,佢中咗標,但係佢要上去睇下嗰個掣喺邊度嚟嘅。 6 杜淦堃資深大律師:係囉,所以我咪話仲未開始個工程,係咪? 7 林文欣先生:未,未。 8 杜淦堃資深大律師:你聽住我問題答會快啲㗎,好唔好? 9 林文欣先生:唔。 10 杜淦堃資深大律師:好,我想問下你知唔知佢係幾時中標㗎? 11 林文欣先生:唔知。 12 杜淦堃資深大律師:你走嗰陣3 月,你返嚟10 月。 13 林文欣先生:個招標,但係未confirm 邊個做--未決定係邊間中㗎嘛。 14 杜淦堃資深大律師:知唔知--你返到嚟睇唔睇到點解你走咗七個月,中間好似冇進展,你知 15 唔知呀? 16 林文欣先生:我唔知。 17 杜淦堃資深大律師:你有冇問過返嚟,「喂,呢單嘢我走之前已經招標個囉喎,呢啲同消防 18 有關嘅嘢點解七個月都好似冇事發生咁?淨係招標同中標。」有冇問過任何人? 19 林文欣先生:呢個唔一定係屬於消防掣個喎。 20 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔嗯。消唔消防我哋再講。 21 林文欣先生:好。 22 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢個工程你走之前已經招標,七個月之後返嚟都未開始工程,我想問下 23 你知唔知道嗰七個月發生咩嘢事呢? 24 林文欣先生:唔知。 25 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係如果我想問你點解做得咁慢,你都唔會幫到我哋,係咪?講唔到, 26 係咪? 27 林文欣先生:講唔到。 28 杜淦堃資深大律師:如果真係要做呢個工程,要做幾耐? 29 林文欣先生:大概一個禮拜喥,大概。 30 杜淦堃資深大律師:點解我問你時間呢,因為我哋有一啲警方提供畀我哋嘅口供,我哋根據 31 警方提供嘅資料,我哋知道喺宏泰閣、宏建閣、宏新閣、宏道閣消防水泥工程嘅工 32 人有位吳日照先生,我畀你睇一睇佢畀警方嘅口供,C1-2/1191,第8 段,佢咁 33 講嘅,你睇到喇,佢話喺2025 年10 月尾我完成宏泰閣、宏建閣消防水缸泥水方 34 面個維修,11 月頭完成咗宏道閣啲消防缸水泥方面嘅維修,佢一直都係阿忠(譯 35 音)大約一星期前問佢進度,11 月6 號阿忠就問佢,跟住佢就send 咗啲圖片去 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第七天

71 本謄本由Epiq 編製 報告,跟住佢就話完成咗石屎、鋪磚、防水,但係消防缸並未能使用,因為還需要 1 加裝水閘、浮波等裝置,而呢啲唔係水泥嘅工作,係水喉嘅工作,佢話唔知道完成 2 咗整個防水缸後要通知消防,因為佢淨係負責水泥嗰一部分。你見到,係咪? 3 林文欣先生:唔。 4 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係話佢由10 月尾到11 月頭完成咗佢嗰部分嘅工作,但係跟住落嚟另 5 外一啲嘅工序就未做好,你睇到,係咪? 6 林文欣先生:唔。 7 杜淦堃資深大律師:你知唔知道--而呢一part 嘅工作有啲係駿昇做,而我哋睇到有啲可能 8 係宏泰有份做嘅,你知唔知道呢件事? 9 林文欣先生:唔知。 10 杜淦堃資深大律師:知唔知,唔知就唔知。 11 林文欣先生:唔知。 12 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係呢啲工作唔喺大維修工程裏面嘅一部分,係你哋去招標,你哋去處 13 理,係咪? 14 林文欣先生:呢個如果整缸應該係建築部做個喎。 15 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔好理邊個部門,係唔係置邦做?係唔係你哋? 16 林文欣先生:呢個我唔清楚。 17 杜淦堃資深大律師:喂,你係宏福苑個工程主任,我而家問緊你個天台水缸嘅工程邊個做, 18 你冇理由唔知個喎,啱唔啱? 19 林文欣先生:天台水缸如果你話維修,就係宏業。 20 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係似乎駿昇嗰個招標係你哋去做,係咪? 21 林文欣先生:招標嗰個係換掣,唔係維修。 22 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係換掣同呢部分工序係相連,同唔同意?做完石屎工程先去做換掣, 23 呢個講法你同唔同意? 24 林文欣先生:因為執修嗰part 唔係我做嘅,唔係我負責。 25 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁邊個負責? 26 林文欣先生:建築部,宏業囉。 27 杜淦堃資深大律師:宏業嘅建築部負責? 28 林文欣先生:即係宏業,即係我哋大維修嗰個負責執修。我負責係水掣嗰part 最重要。 29 杜淦堃資深大律師:我問多你一次,睇下你幫唔幫到我哋,好唔好?你啱啱所講水掣嗰 30 part 係你哋做嘅,啱唔啱?係咪呀? 31 林文欣先生:係。 32 杜淦堃資深大律師:而似乎我哋睇到嘅證據顯示,呢個泥水工就話佢哋做完就會之後有啲水 33 掣嘅工程,啱唔啱? 34 林文欣先生:啱。 35 杜淦堃資深大律師:而水掣嗰part 係你哋負責,係咪? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第七天

72 本謄本由Epiq 編製 林文欣先生:係。 1 杜淦堃資深大律師:就唔關宏業事,係咪咁呀? 2 林文欣先生:可以咁講。 3 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想問下你,你亦都確認咗負責去處理駿昇呢一樣嘢係唔關宏業事嘅, 4 咁你可唔可以講到係你哋去處理定係Victory Fire(宏泰)去處理? 5 林文欣先生:換掣嗰個就係我哋管理處嘅。 6 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想問下你由10 月尾到11 月頭,似乎啲消防缸未用得,係好似等緊駿 7 昇做呢part 工作,呢個係唔係你嘅理解? 8 林文欣先生:我個理解就係未到嗰part,因為我未知泥水嗰邊幾時起貨? 9 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係泥水仲匠咪話起咗貨,到11 月頭,你見唔見到啱啱? 10 林文欣先生:見到,見到。 11 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁到時當--呢個同你嘅理解有冇出入定係你唔知? 12 林文欣先生:我唔知。 13 杜淦堃資深大律師:如果做好你應該知,係咪? 14 林文欣先生:冇人通知我,我唔知個喎,因為建築部嗰part 唔係我對㗎嘛。 15 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁應該邊個通知你? 16 林文欣先生:如果呢個通知應該如果最快就係黎經理會話我聽嘅。 17 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係黎經理冇通知你,你嘅意思係? 18 林文欣先生:係,係。 19 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係你同事黎經理? 20 林文欣先生:因為佢哋有開嗰個每個禮拜六嗰個工程會㗎嘛。 21 杜淦堃資深大律師:我問多你一樣嘢,你講建築部,你指緊嘅係? 22 林文欣先生:宏業。 23 杜淦堃資深大律師:宏業? 24 林文欣先生:係。 25 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係唔係你公司嘅一個部門,你講緊個外判商,係咪? 26 林文欣先生:係,係。 27 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係我哋啱啱都確認咗,就講緊呢一部分嘅工程,換個閘掣唔關宏業 28 事,係咪? 29 林文欣先生:係。 30 杜淦堃資深大律師:而你啱啱所講,你唔知道點解未換個閘掣呢個工程會開始,你而家畀我 31 哋嘅解釋,就係基本上你老細冇同你講,係唔係咁? 32 林文欣先生:係。 33 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係工程呢樣嘢唔係你嘅責任嚟嘅咩?點解要等你老細同你講呢?你係 34 工程主任。 35 林文欣先生:唔係,我解釋畀你聽,因為嗰邊建築部,即係宏業做嘅嘢,佢哋每個禮拜六有 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第七天

73 本謄本由Epiq 編製 開,我冇開㗎,所以我淨係做維修嗰part,如果佢好快同我講,我唔知佢個進度 1 係幾多,冇人同我匯報。 2 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係我哋頭先唔係講咗--我哋而家講緊呢系列嘅工程應該唔關宏業事。 3 我哋而家水掣呢一度係你嘅責任? 4 林文欣先生:但係頭先我咪講過,整水缸個內膽係屬於建築部宏業負責。 5 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係你意思係做完冇人同你講,就冇去跟進,係咪? 6 林文欣先生:係,係,如果嗰邊有同我講嘅,我即刻配合同佢換閘掣會係好快㗎。 7 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係你應該知道--你嗰陣都返咗嚟成個月,係咪?你10 月頭返?中定 8 尾? 9 林文欣先生:10 月8 號。 10 杜淦堃資深大律師:10 月8 號返,你返咗嚟成個月,你應該知道成個月呢個閘掣未換嘅, 11 係咪? 12 林文欣先生:我唔知個喎。 13 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係你冇去問,因為冇人同你講,你就冇去問? 14 林文欣先生:係。 15 杜淦堃資深大律師:而呢個係消防系統嘅一部分嚟嘅,係咪?因為講緊消防水缸。 16 林文欣先生:嗰個唔係--個執修嗰度冇人同我講。 17 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想你睇下另外一份證供,另外一位泥水工程人員呂時龍先生,C1- 18 2/1179 頁,你睇番之前嗰頁,等你知道呢份文件係乜嘢。呢份係一個呂先生畀警 19 方嘅口供,你睇下佢第4 段,佢話喺2024 年10 月,佢哋喺H、G、F、A 座逐座 20 形式負責水泥結構修補工程,2025 年4 月完成四座嘅水泥結構工程,你睇到,係 21 咪?呢四座即係宏志、宏盛、宏昌、宏仁,同唔同意? 22 林文欣先生:同意。 23 杜淦堃資深大律師:你睇下第6 段。警方有進一步問佢點解啲工程未做完嘅,佢基本上講咗 24 三個原因,睇唔睇到?你睇睇呢個表,睇完話我知。 25 林文欣先生:等等。 26 杜淦堃資深大律師:見唔見到? 27 林文欣先生:見到。 28 杜淦堃資深大律師:幾樣嘢,第一樣有接駁位漏水嘅問題,係咪? 29 林文欣先生:唔。 30 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁呢個係要--佢就話要等待更換一啲過牆喉,見唔見到? 31 林文欣先生:見到。 32 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢part 邊個負責? 33 林文欣先生:呢part 就係嗰陣時我就知道係咩嘢呢,因為佢哋每禮拜六要開會。 34 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢part 邊個負責,你可唔可以答我? 35 林文欣先生:呢part 係管理處嘅。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第七天

74 本謄本由Epiq 編製 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係你哋嘅責任,係咪?即係你公司嘅責任,係咪?同唔同意? 1 林文欣先生:同意。 2 杜淦堃資深大律師:跟住第二部再講,等待水喉師傅轉缸,第二個,即係而隻手隔籬嗰度。 3 林文欣先生:唔。 4 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢個即係由食水缸抽水到消防水缸暫時做食水嗰樣嘢,你知唔知呢個問 5 題? 6 林文欣先生:呢個又係宏業做個喎,呢個係。 7 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢個就係宏業做,係咪? 8 林文欣先生:係。 9 杜淦堃資深大律師:跟住下低,「完成防水及鋪瓦仔,等候水喉師傅轉缸」,呢個都係宏業 10 做,係咪? 11 林文欣先生:係,係。 12 杜淦堃資深大律師:再落去,你見到佢點講呀?未能完成嘅原因,以我所知當初大判同宏福 13 苑簽嘅合約中並唔包括換牆喉同埋水閘掣,要等佢哋開會,出錢批喇,搵其他公司 14 換,我哋先進行其他工程,例如鋪英泥其他,咁安排我同埋班散工做四座嘅打針工 15 程,打針工程即係將水泥注入牆身空心嘅地方。佢解釋咗之後仲有啲工序嘅,係 16 咪?你熟唔熟悉呢啲工序嘅流程? 17 林文欣先生:唔係好熟悉。 18 杜淦堃資深大律師:你有冇去研究過? 19 林文欣先生:「打針」我略略知,知佢講乜,略略囉。 20 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁講啱唔啱?如果我哋睇番呢啲文件,消防缸嗰啲泥水工程其實基本上 21 做完,啱唔啱?10 月尾、11 月頭一定完,有啲仲早啲添,係咪?同唔同意? 22 林文欣先生:同意。 23 杜淦堃資深大律師:剩番落嚟未做完嘅工程係同一啲水喉有關嘅工程,係咪? 24 林文欣先生:係。 25 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢個係你哋置邦搵人去做嘅? 26 林文欣先生:過牆嗰啲係,即係位置係炮筒位嗰啲囉。 27 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係你同意係你哋去做,係咪?而你哋冇及時去做其實係會影響到消防 28 缸可唔可以用得番嘅,同唔同意? 29 林文欣先生:但係嗰啲全部要開會,唔係話我哋... 30 杜淦堃資深大律師:你答咗我條問題先。 31 林文欣先生:好。 32 杜淦堃資深大律師:如果冇及時做,我唔先講邊個嘅錯,或者每人嘅錯唔引起幾多延誤,但 33 係及時去處理呢啲工程,置邦一定係有佢嘅角色喺度,係咪?因為係你哋搵人做, 34 係咪? 35 林文欣先生:係。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第七天

75 本謄本由Epiq 編製 杜淦堃資深大律師:主席,可能係一個適合嘅時間。 1 陸啟康法官:我哋休息十分鐘。 2

3 15 時17 分聆訊押後 4 15 時27 分聆訊恢復 5

6 杜淦堃資深大律師:林先生,我同事提醒咗我,我講嘢比較快,我要畀機會同畀時間你諗同 7 埋答,所以我慢啲問你幾條問題。第一件事,我想問下你嘅就係你喺2025 年,你 8 咪走咗幾個月嘅,你喺離開咗公司再返嚟,係咪? 9 林文欣先生:係,冇錯。 10 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔。咁你走咗嗰段期間,你嗰啲工作係邊個去做,你知唔知? 11 林文欣先生:唔知。 12 杜淦堃資深大律師:你走咗嗰幾個月,你完全唔知道邊個頂你呀你返咗嚟之後? 13 林文欣先生:我返嚟都係冇人喺度㗎我個post 位。 14 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係你走咗之後,你嗰個位就一路懸空咗? 15 林文欣先生:係。 16 杜淦堃資深大律師:你原本嗰啲工作,據你個理解,邊個做咗呀,公司冇搵第二個人頂替? 17 林文欣先生:因為我冇同--黎經理冇同我講嘅。 18 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,但係你返嚟你睇番啲文件,你同啲同事交往,你一定知道,喂,走 19 咗呢幾個月,原本我做嗰啲嘢邊個做咗呀?你應該有個概念㗎,你幫唔幫到我哋? 20 林文欣先生:我話你聽,我返嚟,我就知道之前就有一個做咗--頂咗我呢個位,有個姓馬 21 嘅,但係呢,佢做咗,我唔知佢做咗兩個月定三個月,佢又就走咗嘞,咁變咗我返 22 嚟嗰陣時呢,我記得,我知道就係佢有兩個月定咩都係吉咗嘅。 23 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,即係唔係你走嘅全段時間都冇人頂嘅。 24 林文欣先生:係。 25 杜淦堃資深大律師:只不過係臨返嚟之前嗰兩個月,因為姓馬嘅走咗,所以就吉咗? 26 林文欣先生:係呀,係呀。 27 杜淦堃資深大律師:好,第二樣嘢我想同你講嘅就係似乎有個情況就係我哋同你講,駿昇又 28 好或者宏泰又好,邊一個承辦商去處理頭先我哋講嗰啲水閘掣嗰啲工程,似乎你走 29 咗幾個月係冇進展嘅,呢一樣嘢你同意嗎? 30 林文欣先生:同意。 31 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,而你係唔知點解你走咗嗰幾個月冇人跟嘅,係咪呀? 32 林文欣先生:係。 33 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔,對你公道少少,我而家唔係話如果嗰幾個月好迅速咁去做,喺11 34 月嘅時候,成個喉轆系統或者消防栓一定有番水,因為我哋見到有個情況就係有人 35 提議話轉番做--用個消防缸嚟做臨時嘅食水缸,咁再去做完第二啲工程,嗰個消防 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第七天

76 本謄本由Epiq 編製 缸已經運作番,你知道呢件事㗎嘛,係咪? 1 林文欣先生:略略知,但係唔係我開會嘛,我唔可以話--即係我話知道話係吖嘛。 2 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁你有聽過呢樣嘢㗎嘛,你略略知嘅意思係有人提過喇,詳情你唔知, 3 係咪? 4 林文欣先生:係。 5 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁所以我同你講嘅就係,我而家唔係向你提出,話如果你唔喺度嗰幾個 6 月有人好迅速咁去處理,到11 月26 號就一定會做完,但係似乎你走咗嗰幾個月, 7 真係呢樣嘢,如果講得俗少少就好似嘆咗慢板咁,冇人去跟進同埋好迅速咁處理, 8 呢個你同意嗎? 9 林文欣先生:同意。 10 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔,而呢個--其實呢啲工作我哋去睇,其實係影響到個消防系統,係 11 咪? 12 林文欣先生:唔。 13 杜淦堃資深大律師:同意嗎? 14 林文欣先生:同意。 15 杜淦堃資深大律師:所以其實任何影響消防系統嘅工作其實都唔應該等,係咪? 16 林文欣先生:係。 17 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢個有安全嘅風險,係咪? 18 林文欣先生:唔。 19 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係即係我明你有幾個月唔喺度,但係似乎頂替你嘅同事又好、公司又 20 好,都冇好好咁樣去迅速咁樣去督促有關嘅承辦商儘快咁樣做完呢個工程,係咪? 21 林文欣先生:係。 22 杜淦堃資深大律師:就呢方面,我唔繼續問你。主席,喺我盤問緊頭先十零分鐘之前, 23 Victory Fire 宏泰啱啱提供咗啲新嘅文件,同我問緊林先生嘅嘢有關,所以對 24 佢公平起見,我啪咗呢一部分先,我處理咗其他問題先。林先生,我都再一次向你 25 強調,因為呢個係好緊要嘅嘢,我想大家都明白。我唔係話呢幾個月嘅耽誤一定影 26 響到11 月26 號嗰個消防系統可唔可以全面回復正常運作,你明唔明呀? 27 林文欣先生:唔。 28 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係我諗我哋大家都同意喺處理呢件事上高,似乎個態度同埋個效率都 29 有改善嘅空間,同意嗎? 30 林文欣先生:同意。 31 杜淦堃資深大律師:我相信你今朝--你今朝有嚟聽㗎嘛,係咪? 32 林文欣先生:有。 33 杜淦堃資深大律師:你都見到你嘅同事,嗰兩位師傅,李師傅同埋羅師傅畀證供,你知道佢 34 哋講過啲乜嘢,係咪? 35 林文欣先生:知道。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第七天

77 本謄本由Epiq 編製 杜淦堃資深大律師:你自己都應該知道其實處理嗰啲消防系統,係要有消防系統裝置承辦商 1 至可以去關閉有關嘅係統,係咪? 2 林文欣先生:係。 3 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢樣嘢,你點知㗎你自己? 4 林文欣先生:我嘅知識話我知。 5 杜淦堃資深大律師:你有電工牌,作為一個有牌嘅電工呢一樣嘢都應該係喺你專業範疇裏面 6 嘅其中一部分,係咪? 7 林文欣先生:我自己識囉,因為我有了解過。 8 杜淦堃資深大律師:而你唔係因為呢一個火警先了解喇? 9 林文欣先生:唔係。 10 杜淦堃資深大律師:一路都知嘅? 11 林文欣先生:一路都知。 12 杜淦堃資深大律師:所以其實喺制度上高,你哋應該係唔會容許你哋屋苑裏面嘅師傅自己去 13 鬥啲消防系統嘅,同唔同意? 14 林文欣先生:同意。 15 杜淦堃資深大律師:所以你哋嘅習慣應該就係每一次有關於消防系統損壞嘅投訴,你哋都係 16 會搵承辦商去處理,係咪? 17 林文欣先生:係。 18 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋知道--你今朝睇過,我哋全部喺度嘅人都睇過,我想慳番啲時間, 19 你都知道有三張工作單,係咪?你坐咗喺後面睇到喇? 20 林文欣先生:睇到。 21 杜淦堃資深大律師:你知道其中有工作單係要求去幫宏泰--宏業去放咗個消防缸嘅水,呢個 22 就導致咗嗰個消防喉轆系統嘅關閉,係咪? 23 林文欣先生:係。 24 杜淦堃資深大律師:你亦都知道實際上發生咩嘢事? 25 林文欣先生:我知道。 26 杜淦堃資深大律師:因為羅師傅唔清楚,... 27 林文欣先生:係嘞。 28 杜淦堃資深大律師:...閂咗個刀掣,就會搞到個火警鐘個系統都熄咗,咁所以就閂咗,係 29 咪? 30 林文欣先生:係。 31 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想問下你,你返到嚟,10 月之後,你知唔知道有工程部嘅同事幫宏業 32 放水呢件事? 33 林文欣先生:唔知。 34 杜淦堃資深大律師:出嗰啲Job Order,嗰啲工作單你睇唔睇到㗎? 35 林文欣先生:我就冇去睇嗰啲嘅,如果--點解我有啲--譬如你--兩個師傅做咗唔得嘅嘢, 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第七天

78 本謄本由Epiq 編製 有困難佢會即刻同我講嘅。即係佢見到有啲維修單有古怪,佢handle 唔到,佢會 1 話我聽。 2 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係作為你係佢兩個嘅上司喇,係咪? 3 林文欣先生:唔。 4 杜淦堃資深大律師:佢哋每日做咗啲咩嘢工程,你知唔知㗎? 5 林文欣先生:我咪講咗囉,如果佢有困難,佢會直接話我聽。 6 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係佢冇困難,你唔知,係咪? 7 林文欣先生:係。 8 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁畀張咩嘢Job Order 佢,都冇人會話你知同埋你唔會去睇,係咪? 9 林文欣先生:係。有困難嗰啲囉,有困難佢會話我聽,冇困難嗰啲一般我都唔知㗎。 10 陸啟康法官:即係我諗好多人咁問,咁你做咩嘢㗎你?即係其實你工作唔係應該嗰啲單係應 11 該經你㗎咩?因為呢啲係工程單嚟㗎嘛? 12 林文欣先生:唔知,我知,佢一貫做法呢,個屋苑開維修單所有都係(English 13 Spoken)開㗎啲單,唔係我,佢有投訴就去開單嘅啫,咁囉。 14 陸啟康法官:咁但係唔應該就算係管理處都係應該經你去--工程嚟㗎嘛,呢啲係。 15 林文欣先生:但係佢哋做法個流程係咁樣囉,譬如有啲真係好--好“kam”嘅嗰啲,全部先 16 畀我㗎,去處理㗎。一般嗰啲... 17 杜淦堃資深大律師:好“kam”即係好困難,係咪? 18 陸啟康法官:即係總之你係負責解決問題? 19 林文欣先生:係呀,係呀,係呀,係呀。 20 陸啟康法官:唔,明白。 21 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋想了解個流程。 22 林文欣先生:我知,我知,我知,我話聲畀你聽我哋係咁做,唔係--唔係好似你覺得好似我 23 一個廢物咁,其實有乜嘢... 24 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔係,我哋冇咁講。 25 林文欣先生:你聽我講,有乜嘢工程上出標,各樣那樣全部都係我做paper㗎,係嘞。 26 杜淦堃資深大律師:所以我頭先咪講嗰個去搵駿昇嗰個出標嗰個應該係你處理。 27 林文欣先生:係,係。 28 杜淦堃資深大律師:而你走咗就冇人處理,係咪? 29 林文欣先生:係,係。 30 陸啟康法官:對唔住,我明白你係有工作,不過我覺得有啲奇怪就係,頭先經過個工程嘅流 31 程係冇經過你,我覺得有啲奇怪,請繼續。 32 杜淦堃資深大律師:我都想問番你,喺個架構上高,其實成個宏福苑呢,做工程我哋知道有 33 呢兩位師傅,一個做電、一個做木,即係非電嘅工程,除咗佢兩個之外,係咪淨係 34 得你? 35 林文欣先生:我咪帶兩個師傅囉。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第七天

79 本謄本由Epiq 編製 杜淦堃資深大律師:你帶佢兩--即係得你三個人嘅啫? 1 林文欣先生:係呀,係呀,係呀。 2 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想問一問你,睇你幫唔幫到我哋,如果你唔知話你唔知。宏泰嘅水喉 3 工有個唐慶麟先生,佢嘅證人陳述書第5 段,佢話喺2025 年嘅10 月16 日,佢 4 發現咗宏仁、宏道、宏新嘅消防缸係冇水嘅,亦都係跟你查詢過嘅,你有冇印象? 5 林文欣先生:佢有略略咁講囉,但係我當時係管理處話畀我聽,就係掛咗牌嘅,就係咁囉。 6 杜淦堃資深大律師:佢話打過個電話同你有過對話添,佢講嗰個電話係6902,嗰個係咪你 7 電話? 8 林文欣先生:6902 係呀,係我個電話。 9 杜淦堃資深大律師:係。你有冇印象呢個唐先生打過畀你同你講呢個問題? 10 林文欣先生:冇印象。 11 杜淦堃資深大律師:睇番你證人供詞第17 段,你話當日,火警當日大概2 點,我哋見到... 12 林文欣先生:飯後,我飯後,唔。 13 杜淦堃資深大律師:係嘞,你話就同Victory Fire 個鍾先生通電話,係咪呀? 14 林文欣先生:唔。 15 杜淦堃資深大律師:就問佢係咪已經完成咗消防年檢嘅問題,做有關嘅維修同埋出埋張 16 FS251,係咪? 17 林文欣先生:係。 18 杜淦堃資深大律師:而你嘅憶述就係當時佢同你講出唔到,因為水缸冇水,係咪? 19 林文欣先生:係。 20 杜淦堃資深大律師:有冇提過--大家有冇提過消防鐘嗰個狀態? 21 林文欣先生:冇講。 22 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁你知唔知道個水缸係咪真係冇水嗰陣? 23 林文欣先生:係冇水呀,佢講咗畀你聽講--即係我--因為點解我憶述呢?就係嗰日我返嚟, 24 擺咗我張檯有張員工單嚟嘅,係宏泰嘅,我再--咦,做完我...(聽不清),我咪 25 追佢攞(English Spoken),但係佢同我講阿鍾生話「喂,你個水缸冇水,出 26 唔到住」咁囉。 27 杜淦堃資深大律師:你呢段裏面呢,你就話--你話--你講呢個電話,你話跟住最屘你話「當 28 時我才首次知道有關水源的情況」,即係喺呢個電話個對話嗰陣你先知嘅,係咪? 29 你睇番17 段,你見唔見到你自己嘅口供?最後屘嗰句,隻手隔籬嗰度? 30 林文欣先生:係。 31 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係你嗰陣先至知道水缸冇水呢個問題,係咪? 32 林文欣先生:唔。 33 杜淦堃資深大律師:係咪呀? 34 林文欣先生:係。 35 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係其實你應該晨早知道,你返咗嚟嗰幾月,你係應該知道消防水缸其 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第七天

80 本謄本由Epiq 編製 實做緊工程㗎嘛,係咪? 1 林文欣先生:但係我唔知係所有八座一齊冇晒吖嘛。 2 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔,因為冇人同你講,係咪? 3 林文欣先生:係。 4 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁我想問下嘞,有個大維修有消防系統有關嘅工程,當時進行中,你知 5 道㗎?因為你知道有修葺呢個水缸嘅工程做緊,係咪? 6 林文欣先生:唔。 7 杜淦堃資深大律師:你走之前已經處理相關嘅工程,係咪? 8 林文欣先生:我走嗰時未做呢啲工程。 9 杜淦堃資深大律師:未做,未做,但係你走之前已經招緊標做嗰個同個水箱有關嘅工程喇 10 嘛,講緊駿昇嗰度,我哋頭先咪講咗。 11 林文欣先生:閘掣囉,閘掣囉,閘掣。 12 杜淦堃資深大律師:係囉,個閘掣係同嗰個水箱有關㗎嘛,係咪?𠹌住㗎嘛。個閘掣搞唔 13 掂,個消防系統應該運作唔到㗎嘛,係咪呀?我諗我哋頭先都同意咗呢一點,係咪 14 呀? 15 林文欣先生:係。 16 杜淦堃資深大律師:所以換句話講,其實你一路呢幾個月,個消防系統未搞掂呢一樣嘢同埋 17 水缸冇水呢樣嘢,你應該係有個意識,你會意識到㗎,係咪? 18 林文欣先生:唔。 19 杜淦堃資深大律師:同意嗎? 20 林文欣先生:同意。 21 杜淦堃資深大律師:係。有關火警鐘系統嘅問題,都講咗幾日嘞,大家都知嘞,據你理解係 22 咪都係咁呀?其實要熄個泵,唔使熄個刀掣,喺個紅色個板面度,嗰個control 23 panel 上高,有兩個掣叫做(English Spoken),你知道呢樣嘢,係咪? 24 林文欣先生:知道,知道。 25 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係換句話講你同意--你同唔同意其實要熄個泵而唔影響個火警警報系 26 統,即係警鐘係可以做到而唔熄個刀掣,呢樣嘢你知㗎嘛,係咪? 27 林文欣先生:知。 28 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係羅師傅就唔知道呢一樣嘢? 29 林文欣先生:就係大鑊囉。 30 杜淦堃資深大律師:係囉。咁... 31 陸啟康法官:所以個工作流程係應該經你㗎嘛,係咪呢? 32 林文欣先生:我知,但係我想講就係當日佢哋做嗰個我唔喺呢間公司吖嘛。 33 陸啟康法官:我明,我明。 34 林文欣先生:所以我就唔知件咁嘅嘢,如果畀我知,我唔畀佢咁做添喇。 35 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,對你公道啲,因為嗰幾個月你唔喺度。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第七天

81 本謄本由Epiq 編製 林文欣先生:係呀。 1 杜淦堃資深大律師:所以如果你喺度嘅話,有機會... 2 林文欣先生:就唔會有個--發生呢件事嘞。 3 陸啟康法官:有機會可能你會察覺到。 4 林文欣先生:我制止... 5 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係返嚟都冇人同你講熄咗個掣,係咪? 6 林文欣先生:冇呀,冇呀。 7 陸啟康法官:但係個流程就算你喺度都唔會經你㗎嘛,你明唔明呀?因為你其實可能管理處 8 開單畀羅師傅去做,應該係唔會經--呢樣我真係覺得有啲奇怪,就算你喺度,你都 9 未必察覺得到喎,如果依呢個嘅工作流程。 10 林文欣先生:我咪講咗囉,主席,如果羅師傅或者李師傅有困難,佢即刻同我講,咁我或者 11 制止作事囉,即係佢做唔到,解決唔到就會搵我囉,咁樣囉。 12 杜淦堃資深大律師:如果當時佢去問個消--如果佢哋當時有懷疑個消防系統係唔係佢哋可以 13 去熄個掣,佢哋係應該問你嘅,係咪? 14 林文欣先生:係呀,係呀,最慘就當時我唔喺度吖嘛。 15 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁我想問下你,主席問過流程嘅問題,其實工程有關嘅人得三個啫,你 16 同嗰兩位師傅。 17 林文欣先生:唔。 18 杜淦堃資深大律師:你係佢兩個嘅上司,喺個流程上高點解可以落咗啲Job Order,完全 19 係你唔知,同埋好似冇關係,就咁夾咗喺個打卡位嗰度呢?正如羅師傅講。 20 林文欣先生:唔係,佢哋一貫做法個屋邨就係開維修單,有咩嘢整,有咩嘢整,就𠓼咗喺嗰 21 度,嗰度兩個師傅返是但一個,見到維修單就喺嗰度攞去做嘅啫,不嬲都係咁嘅。 22 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,我明不嬲都係咁,所以我哋搞清楚個流程,就係可能出咗張單,師 23 傅攞咗,做埋你都係唔知嘅,如果佢哋冇遇到困難,係咪咁呀? 24 林文欣先生:係。 25 杜淦堃資深大律師:所以呢個流程係咪有啲問題呢你覺得? 26 林文欣先生:如果出事呢就覺得係囉,如果一般冇事咪唔係囉,即係佢哋係咁玩法,即係嗰 27 個流程係咁樣吖嘛。 28 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想問一問你火警當日嘅情況。11 月26 號兩點半左右,你喺宏新閣 29 嘅,係咪? 30 林文欣先生:我敘述一次畀你聽,嗰日我打完電話畀鍾生話攞FS251,跟住我就出去做嘢 31 嘞,我即刻去第三座我係檢查地下水泵房更換閘掣嗰啲位置嘅,我做做下嘢突然間 32 呢... 33 杜淦堃資深大律師:停一停先,我諗你會講一段時間。你10 月8 號返嚟,係咪? 34 林文欣先生:係。 35 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁點解你到11 月26 號先同鍾生講話要攞番有關嘅文件嘅? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第七天

82 本謄本由Epiq 編製 林文欣先生:因為當天佢做完嗰個order,全部執修完,抌喺我檯,就嗰日嘞。 1 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係做完個order... 2 林文欣先生:即係嗰啲執修嗰啲(English Spoken),做完滿意擺低喺我度,我要... 3 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁嗰個order 係邊個做完㗎? 4 林文欣先生:宏泰做。 5 杜淦堃資深大律師:宏泰做嘅。 6 林文欣先生:係嘞。 7 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係宏泰有啲關於水--消防系統嘅... 8 林文欣先生:水喉同埋電嘅嗰兩part 嘢,嗰兩part 做晒嘞,跟住嗰日咁蹺就當日擺喺 9 度,就係嗰日嘞。 10 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔嗯。咁你嗰日--所以你就嗰日先識去問佢,「喂,嗰SDN 點呀?」 11 林文欣先生:係嘞,就係咁囉。 12 杜淦堃資深大律師:好,你繼續講。 13 林文欣先生:繼續講,跟住我喺泵房做緊嘢,檢查啲閘掣,跟住大概兩點零鐘,差唔多喇, 14 時間我唔冇confirm。跟住我收到個邨經理打電話嚟「喂,好似有火喎,睇下點解 15 冇警鐘嘅?」叫我去檢查,我咪隨即又收到鄭小姐個電話,又係同一個嘢,我咪即 16 刻走出去泵房睇,咦,我見宏昌嗰度就開始有火,我想走去宏昌幫手嘅,但係去唔 17 到,太多人,又地盤工人,跟人主我唔好諗嘞,我即刻跑返去A 座,去救下,睇下 18 有冇--欸,去到A 座,我見到break glass 就扑落去囉,咦,唔成功喎,跟住 19 我去加壓房,即刻開門,咦,有個掣,...(聽不清)去開,即刻開番著番嘞。有 20 (English Spoken )響,跟住就去第二座,第二座同一個做法,扑break 21 glass,開刀掣唔成功,跟住我又再去第三座,即係宏新閣,咁第三座又成功嘅。 22 杜淦堃資深大律師:停一停先,即係你喺宏仁同宏道開得番,係咪? 23 林文欣先生:唔係。 24 杜淦堃資深大律師:Sorry,sorry。 25 林文欣先生:A 座okay,B 座唔得,C 座得。 26 杜淦堃資深大律師:Okay,明白。好,跟住我想問下你,你去完C 座,之後點? 27 林文欣先生:我想去D 座嘅,但係太勁啲火勢,阿Sir 唔畀我去,所以我要退後。 28 杜淦堃資深大律師:你去每一個泵房嘅時候,你係攞住抽鎖匙開定係根本上個泵房冇鎖? 29 林文欣先生:我自己有鎖匙㗎嘛。 30 杜淦堃資深大律師:我知,我知你自己有鎖匙。 31 林文欣先生:我去開。 32 杜淦堃資深大律師:我頭先條問題係問你,你要唔要用你條鎖匙去開? 33 林文欣先生:要,要,要,要,要,要用鎖匙。 34 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,即係你去嘅每一個泵房都有鎖嘅,係咪? 35 林文欣先生:有,有。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第七天

83 本謄本由Epiq 編製 杜淦堃資深大律師:得。跟住點? 1 林文欣先生:跟住咪第三座做完,跟住我想去第四座,去唔到嘞,我咪折返。跟住我再想去 2 走,跟住阿Sir 搵我幫手,就去管理處印(English Spoken)囉。 3 杜淦堃資深大律師:跟住呢? 4 林文欣先生:跟住我印完(English Spoken),跟住問阿Sir 仲有冇嘢要幫手,如果 5 冇,咁我咪大概4 點走人,離開呢個屋苑,最後一個囉。 6 杜淦堃資深大律師:鍾先生,宏泰鍾傑文佢就係咁講過嘅,你嗰日打過電話畀佢,係咪?3 7 點10 分。 8 林文欣先生:我唔記得嘞,當時好緊張,就係我個人慌晒我都,真係唔記得,唔好意思。 9 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係你唔記得你同佢有過對話? 10 林文欣先生:係,唔記得。 11 杜淦堃資深大律師:消防嘅證據顯示火警當日有幾個加壓泵房係冇上鎖,宏仁、宏道、宏新 12 可以自由出入嘅。你知唔知點解? 13 林文欣先生:唔知。 14 杜淦堃資深大律師:你去過嗰啲座數,你開咗啟動咗個裝置,你走你應該冇時間鎖番門,亦 15 都,係咪? 16 林文欣先生:我記得好似係,我趕住要救番--著番,多啲人--即係冇咁仔細,可能就係咁。 17 杜淦堃資深大律師:好,另外我想問你嘅嘢,就係喺嗰一晚你同鍾先生有講過電話嘅,記唔 18 記得?火警之後,夜深。 19 林文欣先生:記得。 20 杜淦堃資深大律師:你問緊--當時佢就問你攞番嗰啲(English Spoken),係咪? 21 林文欣先生:即係停水紙嗰張紙。 22 杜淦堃資深大律師:你知咩嘢係(English Spoken)? 23 林文欣先生:嗄,我知。 24 杜淦堃資深大律師:佢問你攞番(English Spoken)? 25 林文欣先生:係,係。但係嗰個唔係喺我度吖嘛,我提供唔到畀佢吖嘛。 26 杜淦堃資深大律師:你聽住我條問題答,你一步一步嚟,好唔好? 27 林文欣先生:唔。 28 杜淦堃資深大律師:嗰晚你同佢講咗好耐,講咗成個鐘? 29 林文欣先生:唔。 30 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,你記唔記得你交談嘅內容? 31 林文欣先生:圍繞就係問下嗰個--點樣攞嗰啲form 嗰啲,因為我未download 過嗰啲 32 form㗎嘛。 33 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係佢問你嗰啲嘢已經係畀咗消防處個囉喎,係咪?係,你同佢有傾過 34 呢個問題,係咪? 35 林文欣先生:消防處--唔係,我問下佢有冇咩嘢證書係關於我哋個場嘅證書佢有嘅。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第七天

84 本謄本由Epiq 編製 杜淦堃資深大律師:點解你會問佢嘅? 1 林文欣先生:唔係,咁我睇下嗰啲證書睇下... 2 杜淦堃資深大律師:個(English Spoken)唔係佢入,你知唔知? 3 林文欣先生:我唔係好清楚喎。 4 杜淦堃資深大律師:你當時清唔清楚有幾多個消防承建商? 5 林文欣先生:得佢咋嘛其實,我都係問佢咋嘛。 6 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁中華有個(English Spoken),呢樣嘢你唔知嘅? 7 林文欣先生:我唔知嘅。 8 杜淦堃資深大律師:我諗對你公道少少,你係處--同埋兩位師傅係處理日常嘅維修同埋一啲 9 嘅執漏嘅工作,係咪?可唔可以咁講? 10 林文欣先生:係,係。 11 杜淦堃資深大律師:如果一啲你哋去招標,你哋負責搵承判商做嘅,你哋就會去處理,係 12 咪? 13 林文欣先生:唔。 14 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係大維修宏業嘅嘢,似乎聽你咁講,你哋就唔會去理啲細節,係咪? 15 林文欣先生:因為我唔係專責嗰個人去(English Spoken)吖嘛。 16 杜淦堃資深大律師:另外,我都想問一問你另外一個範疇嘅嘢,喺警察畀我哋嘅文件裏面, 17 我哋喺宏福苑管理處嘅電腦檢取咗一啲嘅文件,其中有啲喺你電腦嗰度嘅。我哋或 18 者--呢個應該係一個草稿嚟嘅,唔係出咗嘅信嚟嘅,但係關於啲業主簽名文件嘅事 19 情嚟嘅。 20 陸啟康法官:唔該,可唔可以畀個(English Spoken)我哋? 21 杜淦堃資深大律師:未有(English Spoken),因為呢個--唔好意思,主席,因為係我 22 哋啱啱發覺有呢啲文件未喺個bundle 度,但係因為喺你嘅電腦--林先生嘅電腦嗰 23 度檢取,所以我睇下你幫唔幫到我哋? 24 林文欣先生:你講(English Spoken)定咩嘢先? 25 杜淦堃資深大律師:(English Spoken )嚟嘅,我哋唔知(English Spoken )定 26 (English Spoken),總之喺似乎係你個電腦嚟。 27 林文欣先生:哦。 28 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係呢啲就同工程... 29 林文欣先生:呢啲唔關我事,呢啲。 30 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,維修冇關嘅事情。 31 林文欣先生:唔係好關係到。 32 杜淦堃資深大律師:所以呢啲文件係咪你都冇認知? 33 林文欣先生:冇,呢啲唔係我出㗎嘛。 34 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白。我想你明白一樣嘢,林先生,頭先有啲嘅問題可能係因為可能我 35 嘅問法,或者可能你嘅答案,可能會引起一啲尷尬,我哋唔係想羞辱你,但係我希 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第七天

85 本謄本由Epiq 編製 望你明白,喺個流程上高,大家都睇到可能係有一啲可以改善嘅空間,呢個你同意 1 㗎,相信? 2 林文欣先生:唔。 3 杜淦堃資深大律師:你亦都會同意就係,可能就係呢啲流程上高嘅問題,衍生咗一啲影響到 4 今次火警警報系統個運作嘅問題出現咗,我相信呢個你都同意? 5 林文欣先生:唔。 6 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋唔係想冒犯你,我亦都唔係話喺個制度裏面,你做咗一啲同你平時 7 做好唔同嘅嘢,但係似乎你哋嗰個系統就真係影響到今次嗰個火警警報系統嗰個關 8 閉,你明白我哋呢一點,係咪? 9 林文欣先生:唔。 10 杜淦堃資深大律師:而正如你頭先所講,其實羅師傅係唔應該走去閂咗嗰個刀掣,係咪? 11 林文欣先生:係。 12 杜淦堃資深大律師:如果嗰個指示係畀你,你係唔會做嘅,係咪? 13 林文欣先生:一定唔會囉。 14 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係正如主席所講,如果用番你哋嗰個流程去做,就算你喺度,如果佢 15 冇問你,閂咗佢都唔知--你都唔會知嘅,係咪? 16 林文欣先生:係㗎。 17 杜淦堃資深大律師:你唔會去check㗎嘛? 18 林文欣先生:因為你--有危險嘅嘢佢哋個個都畀我刮渣㗎嘛,佢覺得有問題,一定要搵我 19 㗎。 20 杜淦堃資深大律師:我講得好聽啲,你把關,係咪? 21 林文欣先生:係。 22 杜淦堃資深大律師:主席,我現階段冇其他問題,但係基於因為今日下午先收到一啲文件係 23 Victory Fire 今日畀我哋嘅,我好可能要再麻煩林先生嘅。不過我諗喺呢個階 24 段可能畀其他涉事方問咗先,亦都有可能我冇需要再勞煩佢,所以我哋睇下我哋今 25 晚睇完個情況。 26 陸啟康法官:其他涉事方有冇問題想提問? 27 孫靖乾資深大律師:主席,我係會有啲問題嘅。 28 係,林先生,首先,我就--杜大律師就有問過你,就係關於一啲你係喺3 月份 29 嘅時候,2025 年,你仲係喺宏福苑,因為你係4 月1 號先至離開,直至到去10 30 月頭就再返番嚟宏福苑嘅。咁我想問一問番你,喺3 月嘅時候,有其中一個嘅會議 31 嘅紀錄,咁就麻煩你就去一去--喺呢個H1-3/第6076 頁嘅,咁呢個就喺2025 32 年3 月15 號嘅大維修工程嘅進度會議,我知道,你頭先亦都講過你就冇去出席呢 33 一個會議,係應該就係置邦,就係黎經理同埋就應該係駱小姐就係去出席嘅,係 34 咪? 35 林文欣先生:唔。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第七天

86 本謄本由Epiq 編製 孫靖乾資深大律師:但係我哋如果跟住向下再睇一睇,可能我哋去番6077 頁,咁6077 頁 1 我哋可以睇到第12 段嗰度,就頭先杜大律師同你講過,其實就係關於嗰個宏業, 2 就話佢會先進行呢個消防缸嘅防水工程,施工期就大約係個半月。咁我跟住就再想 3 你睇一睇,就係再之後14 段嗰度,14 段就話「管理處就係表示,就係會喺嗰個開 4 會嘅再之後嗰個星期,就進行呢個水缸嗰個喉管嘅閘掣配件嘅招標報價」,見唔見 5 到? 6 林文欣先生:唔。 7 孫靖乾資深大律師:係,剛才你就同委員會講,其實呢個招標就係你去處理嘅,係咪? 8 林文欣先生:唔。 9 孫靖乾資深大律師:係。咁我想問,就係當時你去做呢個招標嘅時候,咁呢啲關於嗰個水缸 10 嗰個喉管嘅閘嘅配件,咁呢個亦都係包括埋嗰個消防水缸裏面嘅一啲--嗰個喉管嘅 11 閘嘅配件嘅,係咪? 12 林文欣先生:係。 13 孫靖乾資深大律師:如果係咁,要做呢一方面嘅招標嘅時候,我想問,據你當時嘅理解,其 14 實要做呢一方面嘅招標或者要搵一啲嘅公司去做,係咪都要搵番一啲係即係叫做持 15 牌,或者係即係有一個--即係總之都係一個即係消防裝置嘅一個承辦商,佢哋係去 16 進行或者去處理呢方面嘅工序? 17 林文欣先生:水喉呢part 就淨係水喉匠佢就可以㗎嘞。因為如果--點解我解釋,我理解就 18 係因為係做水喉嘅嘢,就搵番水喉嘅師傅做。 19 孫靖乾資深大律師:呢個係你嘅理解? 20 林文欣先生:係。 21 孫靖乾資深大律師:係,嗄,咁即係--所以當時你就冇諗過話呢個會唔會係牽涉一個即係持 22 牌嘅承辦商,呢個你就--就唔係你嘅理解嚟嘅? 23 林文欣先生:唔。 24 孫靖乾資深大律師:即係你當時,不是你嘅理解? 25 林文欣先生:係。 26 孫靖乾資深大律師:係。咁到到後來你就知道就係有一間叫駿昇嘅公司就係中咗標,如果咁 27 樣講,其實因為你嘅理解係唔需要搵一個持牌嘅承辦商嘅話,咁其實駿昇呢間公司 28 應該都唔係一個持牌嘅消防裝置嘅承辦商,我咁樣講正唔正確? 29 林文欣先生:正確。 30 孫靖乾資深大律師:係。此外,你亦都知道其實係--起碼你就算未離開呢一個宏福苑嗰個管 31 理處之前,即係話喺去到3 月尾嘅時候,其實你都應該知道宏業係準備就係做一啲 32 大廈上面嘅消防缸嘅工程,呢個你就已經知道,係咪? 33 林文欣先生:係。 34 孫靖乾資深大律師:係。咁到你10 月頭返番去嘅時候,你就知道相關嘅工程仍然係繼續做 35 緊? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第七天

87 本謄本由Epiq 編製 林文欣先生:相關工... 1 孫靖乾資深大律師:即係消防缸嘅工程係仲係做緊嘅? 2 林文欣先生:係。 3 孫靖乾資深大律師:係咪?好。而家我哋就知道就喺--其實喺WS2 裏面我哋都見到有兩間 4 嘅係叫做分判商,一間就係叫做--如果我哋喺呢一個--可能嗰個文件嘅index 嘅 5 第3 頁,我哋會睇到嘅,第3 頁。咁可能我哋會睇到就係有一間我哋可能而家見到 6 個index WS2,如果我哋去睇一睇第3 頁,有兩間公司嘅,或者可能我直接講咗 7 個名先,第一間我哋就見到係一間叫做天雄工程有限公司。你見唔見到呢度有一個 8 叫天雄工程有限公司? 9 林文欣先生:有。 10 孫靖乾資深大律師:第二間就係太陽建設(亞洲)工程有限公司。呢兩間都係宏業就係有搵 11 咗呢兩間公司,就係分別地係對宏福苑其中嘅四座同埋另外嗰四座嘅天面嘅一啲嘅 12 消防水缸就進行呢個工程,呢個你當時你知唔知道宏業係搵咗呢兩間公司? 13 林文欣先生:我唔知。 14 孫靖乾資深大律師:你唔知道嘅? 15 林文欣先生:係。 16 孫靖乾資深大律師:如果我問你,實際上呢兩間公司其實佢哋係咪都唔係一啲嘅持牌或者註 17 冊嘅呢個消防裝置嘅承辦商,你會唔會都係你唔能夠作答,你冇認知嘅呢? 18 林文欣先生:如果要,要check 番囉,因為而家check 唔到。 19 孫靖乾資深大律師:係。即係但係如果你自己--而家我就咁問你,你就唔清楚? 20 林文欣先生:唔清楚。 21 孫靖乾資深大律師:好。咁我亦都想問,就你喺4 月1 號至到應該就係話10 月8 號嘅時 22 候,你就唔喺呢個宏福苑,頭先你就有講過就話有一位姓馬嘅,係有段時間係頂替 23 你個位置,嗰個係馬先生,係咪?馬先生? 24 林文欣先生:係,係,係。 25 孫靖乾資深大律師:但係你就有冇係--即係無論係即係面對面或者係電話,或者通過任何嘅 26 方式,即係同佢做過任何嘅交接或者係問番佢,係你喺唔喺度嘅時候發生咩嘢事, 27 你就冇做過嘅? 28 林文欣先生:冇㗎,未見過嘅從來。 29 孫靖乾資深大律師:未見過嘅,係。所以如果我問你當時,譬如頭先我哋講到嗰個工作單, 30 即係就係話叫羅師傅、李師傅就係去協助宏業去就針對嗰啲消防缸去做放水,其後 31 羅師傅亦都去過嗰個消防加壓泵房裏面就係閂咗個刀掣等等,如果我問你,譬如話 32 馬先生當時佢知唔知道呢件事,或者係咪在場,咁我諗你都唔清楚嘅,係咪? 33 林文欣先生:唔知。 34 孫靖乾資深大律師:係。頭先有講過就話你3 月份嘅時候,你都已經從可能一啲文件,又或 35 者可能你啲同事口中,你知道其實係宏業係打算係做嗰個消防缸嘅一啲工程。而頭 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第七天

88 本謄本由Epiq 編製 先杜大律師問你嘅時候,你都話你大概係知道佢哋諗住係將嗰個消防水缸就係做咗 1 一啲工序之後,就轉--臨時就轉嚟做嗰個食水缸,即係你話呢樣嘢你都係略略知 2 道,係咪? 3 林文欣先生:係。 4 孫靖乾資深大律師:係。咁針對呢一樣嘢,頭先你所講就係話,你唯一當時知道宏福苑嘅有 5 持牌嘅一個消防裝置嘅承辦商就係宏泰,係咪? 6 林文欣先生:係。 7 孫靖乾資深大律師:你就冇知道話有其他,係咪? 8 林文欣先生:係。 9 孫靖乾資深大律師:咁既然係咁,你有冇針對呢一啲佢哋準備做嘅消防工程,係去問番呢一 10 個宏泰,話佢哋會唔會參與,或者佢哋有冇啲咩嘢意見,咁樣做有冇問題等等? 11 林文欣先生:冇。 12 孫靖乾資深大律師:冇。然後我就會想問一問你,就係我想你睇一睇你嗰個證人供詞嘅第17 13 段嘅,咁第17 段,係,第17 段,如果可能我哋--稍等。我哋要去到第1217 14 頁,即係下一頁,咁可能我哋放大少少。呢一度你就喺最屘四行有咁樣講嘅「一般 15 來説」,你睇下見唔見到喺嗰個FS251 嗰個字嘅後面,「一般來説」,你話宏泰 16 如果佢要提交一啲消防裝置同埋設備嘅證書,即係講緊嗰個FS251,就會係一式兩 17 份,一份就會提交畀呢個消防,一份就會存放咗喺嗰個管理處嘅。咁呢度你就係講 18 緊,譬如如果宏泰佢係針對一啲消防裝置做任何嘅嘢,或者一啲年檢等等,即係總 19 之佢會有一個FS251,你頭先講叫做(English Spoken),我想問一問你呢度 20 話嗰個一式兩份,可唔可以講畀我哋知,畀管理處嗰一份係會點樣畀管理處? 21 林文欣先生:通常佢寄返嚟,(English Spoken)畀我。 22 孫靖乾資深大律師:寄返嚟,(English Spoken)畀你。即係其實佢都知道係應該係由 23 你去處理,所以佢直情可能係會抬頭畀你,林生? 24 林文欣先生:係。 25 孫靖乾資深大律師:係。咁你收到嗰個嘅有關嘅譬如話嗰個FS251 呢啲咁嘅證書嘅時候, 26 咁你會點樣做?即係第一,你會唔會係即係都會睇一睇個內容? 27 林文欣先生:會睇下佢嗰啲做晒未,okay 嘞,okay 咪我哋要存檔。 28 孫靖乾資深大律師:你會存檔嘅? 29 林文欣先生:唔。 30 孫靖乾資深大律師:係,即係你係會係喺一啲(English Spoken)存檔備份? 31 林文欣先生:(English Spoken),要(English Spoken)。 32 孫靖乾資深大律師:要(English Spoken)嘅? 33 林文欣先生:係。 34 孫靖乾資深大律師:咁會唔會係即係將佢可能都係發放畀其他嘅同事作為紀錄,有冇啲咁嘅 35 嘢? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第七天

89 本謄本由Epiq 編製 林文欣先生:我都會通知經理。 1 孫靖乾資深大律師:你會通知經理... 2 林文欣先生:物業經理,黎經理。 3 孫靖乾資深大律師:黎經理。咁你係會畀一個(English Spoken)佢定係電郵畀佢定係 4 點? 5 林文欣先生:我會話畀佢聽擺喺邊度嘅咁樣。 6 孫靖乾資深大律師:擺喺邊度。 7 林文欣先生:係。 8 孫靖乾資深大律師:所以如果佢想睇,佢都可以知道邊度睇? 9 林文欣先生:攞嚟睇嘅,係。 10 孫靖乾資深大律師:係。喺你做嗰個存檔嗰個地方,有冇見過除咗係宏泰之外,係其他公 11 司,即係包括我哋而家見到呢個中華發展,所做嘅一啲關於消防裝置嘅任何嘅證 12 書,或者啲(English Spoken),有冇見過? 13 林文欣先生:冇。 14 孫靖乾資深大律師:冇嘅。 15 林文欣先生:我冇見過囉。 16 孫靖乾資深大律師:即係話你做(English Spoken)嗰度就只係有嘅就係宏泰嘅一啲文 17 件? 18 林文欣先生:係,係。 19 孫靖乾資深大律師:係。咁喺火災之前,你有冇喺任何時候見過就係針對嗰個消防缸嘅一啲 20 工程,或者係由呢個中華發展佢所發出嘅一啲嘅-- 即係我哋叫做(English 21 Spoken),有冇見過? 22 林文欣先生:我冇見過。 23 孫靖乾資深大律師:你本身冇見過? 24 林文欣先生:我冇見過。 25 孫靖乾資深大律師:係。咁頭先你作證嘅時候,你話你知道掛咗牌? 26 林文欣先生:呢個意思就係我喺管理處得知話掛咗牌嘅咁。 27 孫靖乾資深大律師:呢個係你幾時得知? 28 林文欣先生:我知道話維--呢個要執修,所以我就問下管理處得知嘅。 29 孫靖乾資深大律師:你知道要執修,可唔可以講清楚,你係知道係關於個水缸要執修? 30 林文欣先生:水缸,係。 31 孫靖乾資深大律師:即係應該你意思就係話,你3 月份--即係4 月1 號你離開嘅時候,個 32 有關工程就尚未展開? 33 林文欣先生:未。 34 孫靖乾資深大律師:跟住到10 月頭,你返番嚟,咁你就從管理處得知,佢就係仍然係針對 35 一啲嘅天台嘅消防水缸係進行緊一啲嘅工程,或者你叫做執修? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第七天

90 本謄本由Epiq 編製 林文欣先生:係。 1 孫靖乾資深大律師:係。咁就係跟住管理處就有同事話畀你知,就已經向消防處掛咗牌? 2 林文欣先生:係。 3 孫靖乾資深大律師:係。你會唔會記得係邊位同事講? 4 林文欣先生:邊位同事講,我問過鄭主任。 5 孫靖乾資深大律師:你問過鄭主任。 6 林文欣先生:係。 7 孫靖乾資深大律師:咁你作為即係工程部,咁你有冇問鄭主任即係第一,去攞番嗰個文件嚟 8 睇一睇? 9 林文欣先生:當時我想問嘅,但係未有時間去問,但係我好強調佢哋話有掛牌嘅,咁樣同我 10 講,我都追問呢樣嘢嘅,佢話有嘅。 11 孫靖乾資深大律師:你想問,但係就未有時間問? 12 林文欣先生:未睇到,應該係話。 13 孫靖乾資深大律師:未睇到。 14 林文欣先生:佢哋會有嘅咁囉。 15 孫靖乾資深大律師:當時你有冇諗過去你平時做存檔個位置去睇下,會唔會已經有人係做咗 16 個存檔,定係話你已經知道其實冇嘅? 17 林文欣先生:點樣冇?係咩嘢冇? 18 孫靖乾資深大律師:你話你有個地方,即係個(English Spoken),你係會去將一啲係 19 宏泰(Victory Fire)關於啲消防裝置可能係一啲嘅證書等等,你就會擺喺一個 20 位置,係咪? 21 林文欣先生:係。 22 孫靖乾資深大律師:你有幾個月唔喺度,你返番嚟嘅時候有冇試過去睇番個(English 23 Spoken)裏面,你唔喺度嗰幾個月,有冇突然間多番啲文件? 24 林文欣先生:我未睇。 25 孫靖乾資深大律師:你直情未去到去睇嘅? 26 林文欣先生:係,未去睇,我臨走之前所有嘢都係(English Spoken)嘅,我要擺落嗰 27 度,即係我做開都有(English Spoken)。 28 孫靖乾資深大律師:所以即係我理解個情況,就係你從鄭主任知道向消防處掛咗牌,你都想 29 問佢攞嗰個SDN 睇。不過就... 30 林文欣先生:未有機會攞嚟睇。 31 孫靖乾資深大律師:...未有機會去攞。 32 林文欣先生:係。 33 孫靖乾資深大律師:咁你亦都未有機會就去睇番你平時存檔嘅嗰個位置,去睇下裏面會唔會 34 有相關嘅文件,所以即係話直到火災發生嘅時候,你係從來冇睇過嗰個SDN 嘅? 35 林文欣先生:係。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第七天

91 本謄本由Epiq 編製 孫靖乾資深大律師:咁我又想問下你,如果你話你都知道係掛咗牌嘅時候,當時有冇問番羅 1 師傅或者李師傅,即係你唔喺度嗰幾個月,針對嗰個工程以至或者掛牌等等嗰啲, 2 有冇啲咩嘢情況發生過,即係你有冇主動去問佢哋,就應該冇,係咪? 3 林文欣先生:冇。 4 孫靖乾資深大律師:咁頭先講嗰個即係話你有做啲(English Spoken)存檔,其實因為 5 你都冇機會去睇番,所以你應該都唔知道有冇人喺你離開咗公司嗰幾個月去負責呢 6 樣嘢,又或者有冇處理過,其實你都應該唔清楚㗎嘞? 7 林文欣先生:係。 8 孫靖乾資深大律師:咁跟住我就想你一個文件,就係喺呢一個--我哋有個英文嘅版本,其實 9 都係物管局去出嘅一個(English Spoken),嗰個頁碼就會係喺--我哋頭先都 10 睇過,就喺呢個B2,B2/2625 頁就會有呢個文件。B2/2625 頁嗰個就係一個英 11 文嘅版本,但係主席,我哋而家有個中文嘅版本。 12 陸啟康法官:唔該。 13 孫靖乾資深大律師:咁呢個文件我就想你就係去睇一睇,就係如果我哋個文件係去睇首先譬 14 如話第2 頁先。第2 頁就係嗰個背景嗰度有講,就話「持牌物業管理公司」,我諗 15 可能要去番之前嗰頁,之前嗰頁,係嘞。好,就係第2 段嗰度,持牌物業管理公司 16 就係為其客戶物業提供一啲物業管理服務嘅時候,就會涉及到一啲公用部分嘅消防 17 裝置同設備,咁呢個就會包括譬如係消防栓同喉轆系統,火警嘅警報系統等等,見 18 唔見到?我就係想問你呢一個嘅文件,即係一個處理消防安全工作嘅一個《操守守 19 則》,你之前有冇見過呢份文件? 20 林文欣先生:我冇。 21 孫靖乾資深大律師:你冇見過嘅? 22 林文欣先生:係。 23 孫靖乾資深大律師:好,唔緊要,我理解你冇見過呢個文件。所以我都即係公道啲,但係即 24 係我想同你睇一睇可能文件裏面有兩三個地方,想睇下你對裏面一啲嘅內容,你會 25 唔會有任何認知,好唔好?咁可能我哋睇一睇--我哋不如就去睇一睇,就係直接 26 地,如果係咁我就同你睇一睇嗰個有關嘅守則,咁就應該係呢份文件,我睇下先, 27 一、二、三、四,第6 頁嘅,就係我哋見到而家有啲係灰色咗嘅部分,第一個 28 A(1),就係話係根據一啲消防嘅裝置同埋設備嘅規例,第95B 章第6(1)條,如 29 果有任何非註冊承辦商嘅人,就唔能夠喺任何嘅處所裏面去安裝呢個消防裝置或者 30 個設備,所以因此,就係持牌物管公司,即係譬如好似呢個置邦佢哋係需要去聘請 31 一啲註冊承辦商去安裝有關嗰個消防裝置同設備。呢個咁樣樣嘅規定,你當時應該 32 都有認知,係知道有啲咁樣嘅要求,係咪? 33 林文欣先生:係。 34 孫靖乾資深大律師:然後,跟住我哋睇一睇下一頁。下一頁,就我哋可能要再--最上面嗰度 35 先,最上面嗰度--可能要去番上面嗰一頁,上少少。即係我哋而家見到嗰個--可能 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第七天

92 本謄本由Epiq 編製 去到最上,要睇到呢個--再上少少。Okay。如果係咁,可能我哋喺A(2)嗰度,我 1 哋就可以睇一睇,就係呢度就有講,就係話如果係同一啲註冊承辦商去訂立合約嘅 2 時候,你跟住見最屘嗰兩行就係話係要對該承辦商有關嘅工作係作出一啲適切嘅監 3 察嘅,呢度你會唔會有認知,其實如果係有啲關於個消防裝置嘅承辦商進行任何工 4 程嘅時候,其實作為物業管理公司係要對佢哋有一啲適當嘅監察,呢個你理唔理解 5 係有個咁樣樣嘅責任,定你係唔清楚? 6 林文欣先生:我唔清楚嘅。 7 孫靖乾資深大律師:你唔清楚。實際上,如果喺嗰個大維修期間,佢哋做嘅一啲工程,即係 8 無論係宏業或者去透過一啲其他嘅分判商去做,咁置邦有冇點樣樣去譬如話作出一 9 啲嘅監察,呢個就唔係好清楚你本身? 10 林文欣先生:係。 11 孫靖乾資深大律師:跟住就再繼續睇埋A(3)嗰度,就係根據《消防(裝置及設備)規例》 12 (第95B 章)第7(1)_條,任何非註冊承辦商嘅人,均不得保養、檢查同埋修理 13 嗰個裝置喺任何處所內嘅任何消防裝置同埋設備,因此持牌物管公司就係一定要委 14 聘註冊承辦商去保養、檢查或者修理物業公用部分嘅消防裝置同埋設備。呢個應該 15 你都有認知? 16 林文欣先生:唔。 17 孫靖乾資深大律師:所以頭先你都講過話,如果當時假如有人同你講話係要你或者你下面嘅 18 師傅係去協助呢一個宏業去做有關嗰個工程嘅話,即係消防水缸,以至入去嗰䭅加 19 壓嘅消防泵房去閂某啲掣,咁你就應該... 20 林文欣先生:一定制止佢嘅。 21 孫靖乾資深大律師:一定會制止? 22 林文欣先生:係。 23 孫靖乾資深大律師:呢度我淨係想補問,就係當時你喺10 月份返番去嘅時候,據你當時嘅 24 理解,你係唔係已經喺火災之前知道咗有一啲嘅掣係閂咗,定你都係完全唔清楚? 25 林文欣先生:唔知。 26 孫靖乾資深大律師:即係就算譬如話做緊嗰個消防水缸嘅時候,即係唔好講總掣,會唔會譬 27 如話有一啲叫做上水泵,即係喺嗰個普通嘅泵房裏面嘅一啲掣係閂咗,你唔知道? 28 林文欣先生:係,我唔知。 29 孫靖乾資深大律師:以致嗰個加壓䂞房裏面有任何嘅掣,包括嗰個(English 30 Spoken),你其實都唔清楚? 31 林文欣先生:唔係,(English Spoken)我知道,個(English Spoken)我知嘅。 32 孫靖乾資深大律師:唔係,你知道個(English Spoken),但係你唔知道實際上加壓泵 33 房裏面嘅情況你就唔知道? 34 林文欣先生:係。 35 孫靖乾資深大律師:明白。好,咁可能裏面仲有啲其他嘅條款,但係因為你冇睇過呢個文 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第七天

93 本謄本由Epiq 編製 件,我就主要問你一啲重點,我跟住仲有少少問題要同你去澄清番嘅。咁就想麻煩 1 你睇一睇你嘅證人供詞,就喺呢個WS2/1215 頁第12 段。第12 段裏面,1215 2 頁,我哋等一等,要去番1215 頁。係嘞,呢度就係頭先杜大律師都有問過你,就 3 話你11 段就講喺25 年11 月左右,就係知道中標嘅嗰間公司就駿昇,然之後你亦 4 都係有去天台就視察下個水缸。我想問你去天台視察水缸嘅時候,當時你有冇去睇 5 下個水缸裏面有冇水㗎? 6 林文欣先生:我冇睇,我淨係視察閘掣,我唔係睇... 7 孫靖乾資深大律師:明白。所以你就冇睇過水缸裏面? 8 林文欣先生:係,係。 9 孫靖乾資深大律師:所以就好似頭先杜大律師講,其實你都去到火災當日,你問呢一個宏泰 10 就攞(English Spoken),佢話畀你知冇水喎,咁你先至喺嗰陣時知道係冇水 11 嘅? 12 林文欣先生:係。 13 孫靖乾資深大律師:12 段裏面,你話你喺檢查期間,就留意到連接消防水缸嘅喉管係鬆開 14 嘅,我就想問下,咁呢度你見到佢嗰個連接消防水缸喉鬆開,你有冇去即係同任何 15 人去跟進,特別係有冇就針對呢樣嘢去問過下宏泰嘅呢? 16 林文欣先生:冇。 17 孫靖乾資深大律師:咁呢樣嘢仲有冇同其他管理處嘅同事去講或者話畀譬如你嘅經理或者主 18 任聽,你有冇講過? 19 林文欣先生:冇。冇。 20 孫靖乾資深大律師:好,咁我跟住就可能要睇睇你嘅第17 段,去到1216 頁,1216。呢個 21 就係頭先你講到喺火災當日,你見到有份完工紙,咁你就問呢個嘅宏泰就攞 22 (English Spoken),再去到1217,1217 你就話你打電話畀鍾先生,然之後 23 就問佢宏泰幾時可以去提供嗰個FS251,跟住鍾生話佢暫時唔能夠發出證書,原因 24 係水缸就係冇水嘅。我就係想問一問你,你話當時先第一次知道係水缸冇水,但係 25 據你作為工程部嗰個經驗嚟講,其實呢個水缸冇水,如果佢哋係維修緊一啲消防嘅 26 水缸工程,我就係想問下,呢一樣嘢係唔係正常或者唔尋常嘅呢? 27 林文欣先生:維修係正常嘅。 28 孫靖乾資深大律師:即係佢維修緊嘅時候嗰個水缸冇水,呢個都係正常嘅? 29 林文欣先生:維修係要停水做㗎嘛,但係問題上個時間,即係維修幾耐咁樣囉。 30 孫靖乾資深大律師:但係嗰個你就都唔係好清楚佢實際上做咗幾耐,因為你有幾個月時間唔 31 喺度,你亦都冇問番嘅,係咪? 32 林文欣先生:係。 33 孫靖乾資深大律師:我淨係想問,當然即係對你公平啲,呢個係26 號嘅時候發生,所以可 34 能你唔一定有機會再即係喺嗰一日即刻再跟進,但係直至到發生火災嘅時候,其實 35 你都應該唔知道有關嗰個消防水缸嘅工程係大概喺幾時會完工,或者幾時可以即係 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第七天

94 本謄本由Epiq 編製 有番水,有番所有嘅嘢回復正常,令到宏泰可以出到(English Spoken),即 1 係呢一度其實你都應該唔知道? 2 林文欣先生:係。 3 孫靖乾資深大律師:好,最後可能問多你一樣嘢,就係純粹關於個大廈嘅消防裝置,我想問 4 下,即係據你所知,無論係工程部或者係管理處,有冇話有特別一啲嘅做法或者措 5 施係會針對消防裝置,即係會有一啲即係耐唔耐或者係定期會去睇一睇佢哋表面有 6 冇損壞等等,定係話其實你哋主要都係倚賴番嗰個宏泰,個情況係點樣樣? 7 林文欣先生:保養商都係,保養商跟進嘅都係。 8 孫靖乾資深大律師:咁宏泰據你所知,有冇話係幾--除咗係年檢之外,即係中間嗰個時間有 9 冇會每隔三個月等等,即係每隔一段時間嚟睇睇嗰個消防裝置嘅情況,有冇㗎? 10 林文欣先生:有,季檢吖嘛,做季檢咪有囉。 11 孫靖乾資深大律師:做季檢嘅? 12 林文欣先生:係,係。 13 孫靖乾資深大律師:但係我哋從宏泰一啲證人嘅證供,似乎佢哋就好似話除咗嗰個2025 年 14 3 月做過年檢之後,佢話去到火災嘅時候,其實係冇做過呢個季檢,即係定係你其 15 實完全唔知道呢? 16 林文欣先生:我唔知。 17 孫靖乾資深大律師:你唔知道? 18 林文欣先生:係。 19 孫靖乾資深大律師:即係你假設佢哋應該有做季檢,但係實際上有冇做到其實你都唔知道 20 嘅? 21 林文欣先生:係。 22 孫靖乾資深大律師:主席,我想可能有好少時間我check 一check,應該我就冇其他問 23 題,但係double check 一check。係,我冇其他問題。 24 陸啟康法官:除咗置--係。 25

26 林樂夫大律師:主席,我哋Victory Fire 會有啲問題問證人嘅,同埋... 27 陸啟康法官:你會問幾耐喥? 28 林樂夫大律師:唔好意思,問... 29 陸啟康法官:問幾耐? 30 林樂夫大律師:問二十至三十分鐘喥。 31 陸啟康法官:後面。 32 李峯琦:係,主席,係,我有啲問題想問林先生嘅,咁就五分鐘會問完,不如今天問埋,好 33 唔好? 34 陸啟康法官:不如你而家問先。 35 李峯琦:林生,你好,我係代表幾位居民嘅,有啲問題想問你嘅。頭先杜大律師喺問你嘅時 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第七天

95 本謄本由Epiq 編製 候,最後階段係畀咗一份通告你,話關於嗰啲核實業主簽名嘅通告,畀咗份文件你 1 睇嘅,你有冇印象? 2 林文欣先生:核實? 3 李峯琦:頭先杜大律師最後畀咗份文件你睇嘅,有冇印象?不如可唔可以協助我擺番上去。 4 林文欣先生:呢份唔係我處理個喎,唔好意思。 5 李峯琦:因為我另外就想畀一啲會議紀錄你睇,咁就係睇下可唔可以協助你回憶番嗰個記憶 6 嘅。主席,咁個會議紀錄我而家會擺上嚟,就唔喺個bundle 入面嘅,因為係啱啱 7 由呢份文件引申出嚟嘅問題,稍候我會再畀番委員會嘅律師,不過我而家會擺咗上 8 嚟先。 9 陸啟康法官:我諗其實咁嘅做法,因為我而家紀錄就唔知你寫邊份嘅,咁其實就(English 10 Spoken)咗(English Spoken)會好少少嘅。 11 李峯琦:都可以,不如我而家擺上... 12 陸啟康法官:我有一個number,你可以臨尾擺番喺個bundle 入面。請你呢個mark 1 13 先,好唔好?即係IC-1。 14 李峯琦:林先生。主席,係右邊嗰份,係一份會議紀錄嚟嘅,就係2021 年8 月9 號,呢份 15 MFI-1。林先生... 16 孫靖乾資深大律師:主席,唔好意思,我打斷一下。因為我留意到如果真係有一啲新嘅文 17 件,我喺度諗緊即係會唔會比較好嘅做法,就係會唔會係可能首先即係提供畀涉事 18 方佢哋都睇一睇,咁然之後可能聽日我哋先至進行即係針對呢個問題。我亦都留意 19 到而家嘅時間都四點半,或者公平起見,或者我哋都會想睇一睇,咁然之後跟住先 20 至進行發問,我唔知道呢個會唔會係更加好嘅一個做法。 21 陸啟康法官:有冇反對? 22 李峯琦:冇反對,不過其實我問嗰個係關於--不如聽日先問。 23 陸啟康法官:咁樣嘅話,就我哋會... 24 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢份... 25 陸啟康法官:係。 26 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢份文件應該喺文件夾裏面係有嘅。 27 陸啟康法官:咁我諗無論點都好... 28 杜淦堃資深大律師:無論點都好,如果林大律師要半個鍾嘅,可能都要到聽日。 29 陸啟康法官:咁聽日--我哋其實剩番... 30 杜淦堃資深大律師:一位證人,嗰個證人會耐少少嘅,但係應該聽日都會做得完,所以聽日 31 應該會用晒全日或者大部分時間係ISS 嘅證人。 32 陸啟康法官:Okay,好。如果係咁嘅話,就我哋會係明天。林生,我哋會喺明天10 點鐘繼 33 續,請你聽日再返嚟。我今朝嘅呼籲,我係繼續重申個呼籲,內容我唔再重複。我 34 哋聽日10 點鐘返嚟,多謝。 35

36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第七天

96 本謄本由Epiq 編製 16 時31 分聆訊押後 1 (聆訊將於2026 年4 月2 日10 時00 分繼續) 2

FD06247 | 2025_港澳台_香港宏福苑大火_Transcript-(Chinese)_20260402.pdf

分类:06_境外及港澳台调查报告 | 年份:2025 | 地域:香港 | 严重程度: | 场所: | 起火原因: | 来源格式:pdf

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第八天

本謄本由Epiq 編製

就大埔宏福苑火災成立的獨立委員會

聽證會

高等法院原訟法庭陸啟康法官 陳健波議員 歐陽伯權博士

日期:

第八天 2026 年4 月2 日

杜淦堃資深大律師, 俞匡庭大律師, 李澍桓大律師, 馮天榮大律師, 張天風大律師及李俊軒大律師代表獨立委員會

許偉強資深大律師, 何卓衡大律師及楊志聰大律師代表置邦興業有限公司

孫靖乾資深大律師, 卓元暢大律師, 陸栩然大律師及劉逸冲大律師代表政府

林樂夫大律師代表宏泰消防工程有限公司

律政司代表

呂世杰資深大律師及阮文躍大律師代表市區重建局

譚俊傑大律師及李峰琦大律師代表宏福苑居民

競爭事務委員會代表

文國灝大律師代表合安管理有限公司

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第八天

1 本謄本由Epiq 編製

以下內容乃聆訊數碼錄音謄本 1

2 10 時00 分聆訊恢復 3

4 陸啟康法官:係,今日會係林生繼續作供,咁個程序而家應該係邊位?係,嗰啲文件嗰啲已 5 經... 6 李峰琦大律師:處理好㗎嘞。 7 陸啟康法官:我諗以後--因為我哋留意得到好多各方係會即係攞啲文件出嚟,我諗攞文件之 8 前,我希望有一個程序,就係唔好真係到時攞出嚟,或者同呢個委員會嘅律師聯絡 9 咗先,點解呢?因為嗰啲文件其實可能有一啲個人資料或者有啲嘢會--即係可能要 10 有一啲適當嘅掩蓋會好啲。所以我諗如果以後各方面--有冇咩嘢意見?杜律師,如 11 果佢哋想用呢啲文件? 12 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,多謝主席,我哋已經通知咗各方嘅律師,螢幕裏面顯示嘅文件會係 13 由委員會嘅律師去處理嘅。咁我諗如果真係有新嘅文件攞出嚟,亦都為咗公平起 14 見,我會建議大家可能先同我哋講一聲,我哋商討下點樣處理,如果需要個聆訊稍 15 作押後要處理呢件事,我諗我哋可以到時去作出有關嘅申請。 16 陸啟康法官:可唔可以?真係可能,不過我諗遞文件之前最好通知聲,亦都可能要作出適當 17 嘅一啲處理,同埋我覺對各方亦都有一個公平起見,所以我諗以後我哋用番呢個程 18 序,好唔好? 19 李峰琦大律師:好。 20 陸啟康法官:但係今次你有冇新文件? 21 李峰琦大律師:冇。因為我哋睇番個會議紀錄,原來就喺個審訊文件冊入面嘅。咁就唔知啲 22 新文件嚟嘅。 23 陸啟康法官:Okay,okay,好,咁你可以問。 24

25 10 時02 分置邦興業有限公司工程主任證人林文欣先生恢復作供 26

27 李峰琦大律師:林先生,其實我呢系列嘅問題呢,主要就唔係問你工作範圍入面嘅嘢,係因 28 為你喺宏福苑都做咗一段時間,你係文職,主要坐寫字樓。一啲屋苑嘅重要會議都 29 睇到你係會出席嘅,所以想睇下你會唔會喺一啲法團管理嘅事務上面有啲觀察係可 30 以協助我哋。我哋可唔可以亦都將琴日最後杜大律師畀林生嗰份文件都--係嘞,明 31 白,係。林生,我哋首先睇咗右手面嗰份文件先,係嘞,呢份文件琴日畀過你睇 32 嘅,相關嗰個(English Spoken)係G1-2/2050 頁。林生,右邊呢個會係宏 33 福苑第十一屆管理委員會第六次委員會會議,都睇到你個名喺上面,你係有列席嗰 34

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第八天

2 本謄本由Epiq 編製 次嘅會議嘅,係咪呀? 1 林文欣先生:係。 2 李峰琦大律師:我想請你睇落少少係2053 頁,2053 頁我哋再碌落少少嘅第7 個項目呢, 3 就似乎係討論緊一個關於有業主喺2021 年7 月26 日收到一個業主提交咗5%業 4 權,希望去召開業主大會嘅,係有相關咁嘅相關嘅討論喺嗰次會。而如果我哋再睇 5 番喺當年呢,嗰次一次特別業主大會嘅議程呢,喺1477 頁,係,都係同一個 6 Bundle。咁似乎嗰次召集5%業主去開呢個議程,似乎就係討論罷免當屆管委會嘅 7 成員嘅,如果我哋再碌落一頁,1478 頁,嗰次嘅特別業主大會呢,林生你都見到 8 你自己個名,你應該都係有出席,係咪呀? 9 林文欣先生:係。 10 李峰琦大律師:好,咁我哋去番頭先嗰個管委會嗰個會議紀錄2053 頁先。咁我哋睇第7.1 11 項,咁就係話鄧生咁就係--7.3 嗰度就話鄧生就報告就係已經向一位嘅召集人提出 12 --發出咗個確認信件,咁似乎嗰個確認信件就是左手邊嗰一份,因為你睇番嗰個日 13 期都係講緊2021 年7 月26 日嘅一個聯署,呢一點首先你可唔可以幫我哋確認 14 呀? 15 林文欣先生:呢個係講番個份數可以5%遞交呢封信。 16 李峰琦大律師:就係一個確認信件,因為係畀個召集人,因為你見到係畀咗葉女士,左手邊 17 嗰份文件。咁應該就係個會議紀錄所講嗰位召集人葉女士。 18 林文欣先生:係,葉女士,係。 19 李峰琦大律師:係嘞。咁我哋再睇7.3 嗰度個討論,就除咗似乎鄧主席個處理方法,除咗係 20 話要出信畀葉女士,要佢確認佢收番嚟嘅簽名係咪有同嗰啲嘅簽名業主係有解釋過 21 內容呢。佢似乎亦都有一個做法,就係話要向所有嘅聯署業主再喺8 月3 號發出一 22 個確認信件,呢度你見唔見到? 23 林文欣先生:見到。 24 李峰琦大律師:你琴日都有聽到駱小姐個證供,佢點樣去處理一啲業主嘅授權信嘅一手法 25 呢。而似乎喺呢一度,鄧主席對於收到一啲業主聯署,要求召開業主大會個處理手 26 法亦都幾唔同,因為你琴日都聽到駱小姐就話對於一啲收到番嚟嘅授權信佢會一個 27 比較寬鬆嘅方法處理。但係喺呢一度我哋睇到鄧主席係收到一啲業主聯署,要求召 28 開業主大會,而個議程係要罷免番佢自己,咁佢自己嘅處理手法似乎係比較揸得緊 29 少少。你可唔可以講下呢,以你過去參加過宏福苑唔同大大小小嘅會議呢,你自己 30 本人對於法團嘅一啲管理手法自己有冇一啲特別嘅觀察,你覺得可以係同委員會去 31 講出㗎? 32 林文欣先生:坦白講,呢啲佢哋嗰啲--開會嗰啲呢,我唔係太熟嘅,真嘅,我唔方便喺呢度 33 評論。但係呢,佢如果咁寫得呢,主席就應該有佢嗰個用處同埋揸緊少少嘅。即係 34 前--阿鄧主席咁講,係囉。 35 李峰琦大律師:好,另外,最後我想問下左手邊嗰啲信件,就喺你個電腦嗰度搵到。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第八天

3 本謄本由Epiq 編製 林文欣先生:係。 1 李峰琦大律師:雖然未必係你處理,但係我想問下呢,以你嘅認知,一般呢啲信件如果係要 2 發出嘅話,係會由法團自己發出吖,管理處會唔會協助發出?如果有嘅話通常會係 3 邊位? 4 林文欣先生:管理處做㗎,係。 5 李峰琦大律師:係邊個會處理㗎?譬如係黎生或者鄭小姐咁呀? 6 林文欣先生:呢樣嘢我真係唔知,因為我係工程部,佢哋係文職嗰面,如果你想知多啲,最 7 好問鄭主任會好啲,係嘞。 8 李峰琦大律師:好,主席,我冇其他問題。 9 陸啟康法官:係。 10 杜淦堃資深大律師:主席,喺大家繼續之前,我哋都想提出一個觀察,即係喺及後嘅程序裏 11 面可以更加有規律。我哋以下嘅觀察並唔係批評啱啱嘅盤問嘅,我哋明白點解涉事 12 方會想問問題,但係喺程序規章嘅設計裏面,大家留意到點解要申請許可先至盤問 13 呢?就係如果要問,因為同法庭程序唔同,我哋冇狀紙,亦都所牽涉嘅議題可能好 14 多,每個證人其實你要問,可能有好多嘢可以問。我哋呢個委員會嘅聆訊,如果大 15 家咩嘢問題,可能有關係都問呢,就冇可能做得完,可能要做好多個月先做得完。 16 我呢個例子,我重複我唔係想批評任何人,但係顯然我哋聽過呢位證人嘅口 17 供,睇到佢喺呢事件上高嘅參與同個範疇,其實佢未必係最適合回答呢啲問題嘅 18 人。而大家都知道下一位證人,今日會傳召嘅係比較高級,而佢亦都有參與呢個會 19 議嘅。所以我哋只係想提醒大家,第一,可能考慮清楚問邊一位證人,呢個會節省 20 時間。第二就係如果個問題比較長,可能真係要同主席去講明點解要問,同點解要 21 問呢一位證人。我重複多一次,我無意冒犯頭先問問題個律師,但係因為呢個紀律 22 好緊要,多謝主席。 23 陸啟康法官:我諗呢個都係一個公道同埋一個觀察,請留意一下,因為其實問嗰陣時我都覺 24 得好似問呢位證人好似唔係好啱,或者問另外一位證人會好啲。咁大家有--即係如 25 果係咁樣,即係我哋聆訊真係都需要有少少嘅紀律嘅。我諗如果喺以後,我不如咁 26 喇,我諗現階段大家再諗一諗真係係咪要問,咁你問嘅時間就用少少紀律去諗一諗 27 先。如果有嘅時候,我覺得如果幾條問題,我都唔想係要你哋寫一個(English 28 Spoken)係要問乜,或者寫一個陳詞要問乜嘅,不過請大家留意,好唔好呀?我 29 哋暫時我哋用番呢個方法,我暫時唔會用話要你入--即係如果你--除非你問好耐, 30 如果唔係嘅話,我都會比較寬鬆處理嘅。不過大家用少少智慧諗一諗,多謝各位。 31 即係係難嘅,我覺得今次處理呢個,我哋都會用一啲好新鮮嘅方法,咁但係我覺得 32 進展,(English Spoken)其實我哋都係進行非常之良好嘅。其實即係以一個 33 咁大型嘅調查,其實我哋已經去到今日真係已經唔容易㗎嘞,咁我哋請繼續,有邊 34 位想問。 35 林樂夫大律師:主席,我想問--代表Victory Fire 想問林生啲問題嘅。係,早晨,林 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第八天

4 本謄本由Epiq 編製 生,我代表Victory Fire 嘅。 1 林文欣先生:係,你好。 2 林樂夫大律師:就有五個題目想同你睇,第一個就係關於Victory Fire 嘅年檢合約。麻 3 煩就去睇H1/31 頁,係,林生你會見到最頂除咗有ISS 嘅公司名,咁下面就有 4 (English Spoken),見唔見到? 5 林文欣先生:見到。 6 林樂夫大律師:係,亦都有宏福苑,係咪?跟住我哋就一路去32 頁,跟住33 頁,34 頁, 7 係,去到呢度你會見到有兩個簽名,左邊嘅簽名就阿鍾生話佢個簽名喇,右手邊係 8 邊個簽名嚟㗎? 9 林文欣先生:右手邊呢個係屋邨經理,黎經理。 10 林樂夫大律師:黎經理。 11 林文欣先生:黎經理,係,係。 12 林樂夫大律師:咁但係呢一份嘅年檢嘅合約係咪你草擬㗎? 13 林文欣先生:草擬? 14 林樂夫大律師:係。 15 林文欣先生:佢本身有(English Spoken)㗎嘛,草擬。 16 林樂夫大律師:哦,即係係咪你處理呢個合約㗎? 17 林文欣先生:呢份--呢份唔係我打嘅。 18 林樂夫大律師:唔係你打,得,唔緊要,因為我哋想睇一睇,就係我哋有個WhatsApp 紀 19 錄,即係新文件嚟嘅,R2/982 頁。R2,係,咁我哋會見到因應委員會律師嘅要 20 求,鍾生畀完證供之後就提供多幾個唔同類別嘅WhatsApp 嘅對話,其中一個就同 21 你嘅對話,頂會見到「林生宏福」,跟住就你會見到「在線」下面就兩個日子,底 22 部呢個日子就2025 年3 月4 日嘅,見唔見到? 23 林文欣先生:見到。 24 林樂夫大律師:鍾生都話呢,3 月4 號呢,咁就你呢,林生就畀番呢個合約畀鍾生嘅。我哋 25 見到有一個嘅檔案嘅名稱,有個PDF,紅色個PDF 叫做「(English Spoken) 26 2024」,四頁紙,見唔見到? 27 林文欣先生:見到。 28 林樂夫大律師:咁我哋去番嗰個--同一時間我哋睇番嗰個--同一時間我哋睇番H1-31 同-- 29 先34 ,我哋去睇番30 頁,我就會見到呢個係water pump maintenance 30 agreement 嚟嘅。咁即係唔關事嘅,咁我哋即係31 係第一頁喇。 31 林文欣先生:唔。 32 林樂夫大律師:跟住就去到34,係嘞,去到35,我哋就會見到另一個文件,就係發票嚟 33 嘞,係咪? 34 林文欣先生:唔。 35 林樂夫大律師:咁即係話嗰個31 至34 就係四頁紙,就正正就脗合WhatsApp 紀錄3 月4 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第八天

5 本謄本由Epiq 編製 號呢個文件PDF 檔案嘅四頁紙呢個嘅描述嘅,你記唔記得係你喺2025 年3 月4 1 號發呢一個四頁紙嘅文件畀鍾生㗎? 2 林文欣先生:我發係發頭先嗰頁,頭先有簽名嗰頁。 3 林樂夫大律師:頭先有簽名嗰頁? 4 林文欣先生:係嘞。 5 林樂夫大律師:但係你見到個WhatsApp 紀錄係四頁紙㗎喇? 6 林文欣先生:四頁紙? 7 林樂夫大律師:即係31 至34 頁囉,就係嗰四頁紙,係咪?我哋可以睇--麻煩再畀林生睇 8 多次,31 至34。係,即係有簽名嘅文件係你發畀鍾生嘅,係咪? 9 林文欣先生:係。 10 林樂夫大律師:Okay,得,好。咁我去下一個問題。係,好,跟住我哋去第二個嘅題目,咁 11 就係琴日就委員會嘅杜資深大律師就問你喺2025 年10 月16 日,咁呢,你就去 12 問過同唐生,唐慶麟先生傾過水缸冇水嘅嘢,咁你就知道掛咗牌,記唔記得有件咁 13 嘅事?你琴日咁講過嘅。 14 林文欣先生:掛牌係水嗰個問題? 15 林樂夫大律師:係,水個問題。 16 林文欣先生:唔。 17 林樂夫大律師:跟住之後就再孫資深大律師呢,代表政府嗰面嘅大律師就問你問邊位同事? 18 你就話係問「鄭主任」嘅,你記唔記得琴日咁講過? 19 林文欣先生:鄭主任,鄭主任係講--都係講番嗰個冇水嗰個問題。 20 林樂夫大律師:係嘞,冇錯。 21 林文欣先生:係。 22 林樂夫大律師:好嘞,咁我又想問,點解你係會問鄭主任呢?係咪因為佢係處理大維修定係 23 點解呢? 24 林文欣先生:唔係,佢不嬲--我未嚟呢,佢熟啲,因為有好多嘢佢follow 或者佢約嗰啲承 25 辦商㗎嘛,佢會知多啲咁樣囉。 26 林樂夫大律師:約承辦商,即係包括消防承辦商都係佢約嘅? 27 林文欣先生:有啲係佢約,即係好似我未返嚟,10 月份,早前入嗰啲執修嗰啲,咁消防公司 28 會約佢幾時開工㗎嘛,做喉管工程,即係關於執修嗰part 係佢約㗎嘛。 29 林樂夫大律師:咁掛咗牌你嘅理解就係係咪一定要係消防承辦商去入SDN? 30 林文欣先生:係。 31 林樂夫大律師:咁你自己本身喺平時有冇處理SDN 嘅文件? 32 林文欣先生:冇。 33 林樂夫大律師:係邊個處理? 34 林文欣先生:消防公司囉。 35 林樂夫大律師:咁你會唔會收到SDN? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第八天

6 本謄本由Epiq 編製 林文欣先生:我未見過。 1 林樂夫大律師:你未見過SDN? 2 林文欣先生:係。 3 林樂夫大律師:所以鄭主任會熟啲? 4 林文欣先生:因為上次如果你講SDN,就係宏業嗰個SDN 囉。 5 林樂夫大律師:宏業嘅SDN? 6 林文欣先生:係。 7 林樂夫大律師:即係關於年檢嗰啲? 8 林文欣先生:唔係,因為我喺關閉呢個SDN,即係關閉嗰個系統嗰份form,我入職到而家 9 未用過呢份嘅。 10 林樂夫大律師:Okay,你未用過,得,好。咁我去下一個題目,咁就係關於係2025 年11 11 月26 號,咁就火災之前,咁就你同鍾生嘅對話嘅。咁就麻煩你再睇多次你嘅證人 12 口供係WS2/1217 頁第17 段,係,呢度第17 段,咁你都有提及過同鍾生有個電 13 話通話,係咪? 14 林文欣先生:係。 15 林樂夫大律師:咁我哋--我想畀番你睇下鍾生講啲乜,就因為同你有少少唔同嘅。 16 林文欣先生:係。 17 林樂夫大律師:咁就係鍾生個證人口供就係WS2/1531 第11 段,係,咁鍾生就講喺2025 18 年11 月26 日1 點28 分就同你有過對話嘅,你可以望一望呢幾行字。 19 林文欣先生:睇到。 20 林樂夫大律師:睇完。 21 林文欣先生:唔。 22 林樂夫大律師:咁我想同你重點傾下就係最後嗰三行,「於通話過程中」後面,「林先生知 23 悉消防泵已被大維修師傅關掉」,你同唔同意佢呢個講法,你當時喺個電話其實同 24 佢表達已經知道個消防泵就已經閂咗,畀大維修嘅師傅閂咗,你同唔同意? 25 林文欣先生:我印象中有少少出入嘅,因為我都話我食完飯返嚟有張檯,見到有張完工報 26 告,跟住我就打去問鍾生「喂,有冇完工報告?即係FS251 完工紙嘅(English 27 Spoken)」,跟住佢話「你測試唔到,所以我畀唔到你」,咁跟住佢話「你天台 28 就冇水,我所以試唔到」,就咁囉,咁樣答我,印象我就冇講電嗰part 嘅,就係 29 咁。 30 林樂夫大律師:係,咁下一個佢嘅講法就係,鍾生就話佢有要求你提供掛牌紙嘅,咁你同唔 31 同意? 32 林文欣先生:掛牌紙,我答佢話我暫時畀唔到佢嘛。 33 林樂夫大律師:即係佢有問過嘅,係咪? 34 林文欣先生:有。 35 林樂夫大律師:Okay,好。好,咁就淨係有--同埋喺呢一個段落有個少少澄清嘅,咁就要 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第八天

7 本謄本由Epiq 編製 麻煩要去睇琴日第七日嘅謄本82 頁,係,第82 頁嘅,係。係,82 頁嗰度,我哋 1 就喺第11 行,82 頁,第七天嘅,係,82,係咪?82,係,係,啱啱嗰個81 頁 2 嚟嘅,而家82 頁。係,咁就第11 行嗰度,杜資深大律師就問--其實係問緊你第 3 17 段嘅嘢,咁你嗰日所以你就嗰日先識去問「喂,個SDN 點呀?」咁你就答「係 4 嘞」咁樣,所以我想澄清,其實喺當日你第17 段,即係11 月26 號火災之前,其 5 實你係問鍾生FS251㗎咋,係咪? 6 林文欣先生:係。 7 林樂夫大律師:就唔係問SDN 吖嘛,係咪? 8 林文欣先生:唔係。 9 林樂夫大律師:Okay,好。跟住就第四個題目。就係--我想睇,畀你睇一睇嗰個--我哋有 10 個新文件嗰個通話紀錄嘅,咁就係R2/853 頁,係,鍾生提供佢喺數碼通攞番嘅一 11 個嘅紀錄。咁就你會見到,我哋啱啱傾,點解鍾生會咁確定佢知道個2025 年11 12 月26 號係1 點28 分?因為佢自己畫咗個紀錄就係四分十六秒嘅,咁你都記得係 13 幾分鐘嘅對話,係咪?即係... 14 林文欣先生:唔,淨係問(English Spoken)嗰個問題。 15 林樂夫大律師:係,好,跟住就去到火災嗰刻,咁就係你見到有另一個畫咗顏色嘅,就係3 16 點10 分,咁就鍾生就話你打畀佢就係呢一個時間,就係大概一分零八秒,咁你應 17 該記得都係呢啲時間,係咪?即係個長度,同埋你打畀鍾生嘅時間。 18 林文欣先生:如果你咁樣睇,就算係囉,因為我當時,我答你我好趕急做嘢,我唔記得,如 19 果你咁樣show 出嚟,咁呀當係囉。 20 林樂夫大律師:但係因為我都要講番就係呢個叫(English Spoken)就冇你嘅電話號碼 21 嘅? 22 林文欣先生:哦,okay。 23 林樂夫大律師:係,咁就即係呢個都係鍾生自己佢嘅講法,所以我都要同你確認下嘅。 24 林文欣先生:係。 25 林樂夫大律師:係。係,咁跟住就--好,我最後一個題目,咁就係關於H3/6797。係,呢 26 個就係你提供同鍾生嘅WhatsApp 紀錄,係咪? 27 林文欣先生:唔。 28 林樂夫大律師:跟住,就我哋一路落去,係,咁就會見到,喺螢光幕顯示你會見到喺1 點 29 29 分,淩晨嚟嘅,咁就有五十七分鐘嘅對話嘅,同鍾生,係咪? 30 林文欣先生:唔。 31 林樂夫大律師:咁就我想同你睇一睇鍾生喺畀證供時嘅講法,即係睇下你同唔同意嘅?咁就 32 麻煩就去第六日嘅謄本,第32 頁開始。係,咁喺第12 行開始,咁你會見到鍾傑文 33 先生佢嘅答案。你留意下個時間,1 點29 分答你「傾咗五十七分鐘」,而家我1 34 點45 分至於1 點55 分,「我send 咗兩樣嘢畀佢,個過程究竟講啲乜嘢?佢 35 一...」 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第八天

8 本謄本由Epiq 編製 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔好意思。主席、兩位委員會記得,李大律師曾經就同一個電話號碼問 1 過林大律師嘅客戶,我哋都話咗公平起見,我哋唔想佢就咁喺個證人台嗰度要佢就 2 地講番嗰五十七分鐘出嚟,所以我哋建議你入一個補充嘅證人供詞,咁嗰個未處理 3 好嘅情況之下,我諗用同一嘅做法,即係如果對你公平,都要對呢位證人公平,所 4 以可能就呢一方面嘅嘢,如果大家都係想有補充,我建議兩方都入個證人供詞,如 5 果有需要先至問。 6 林樂夫大律師:好,同意嘅,係。 7 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係冇理由對一方嘅做法,同對另一方唔同。 8 林樂夫大律師:明白,多謝,咁--係,同意嘅。咁我哋都就嚟準備好㗎嘞,咁如果咁,我係 9 冇其他問題,係,唔該晒。 10 陸啟康法官:唔該晒。咁置邦。 11 許偉強資深大律師:林生,我淨係得一個問題想問下你嘅啫。就係就住剛才林大律師問你有 12 關你同鍾生嗰個對話,就係喺火災發生咗之後,嗰個--呢個火災發生之前嘅一個對 13 話,就係講關於佢問你攞嗰個SDN 嗰樣嘢嘅,或者我哋睇番佢嗰個--鍾生嗰個證 14 人口供,喺WS2/1531,剛才林律師都有問過你第11 段,咁就呢度就係鍾生嗰個 15 口供,就係講關於佢話你就問番佢攞呢個FS251,咁就而你亦都--最後兩句你亦都 16 要求佢提供掛牌紙,而佢未能提供等等嘅,記得嘛? 17 林文欣先生:唔。 18 許偉強資深大律師:呢個係咪都係你第一次問佢攞有關嘅掛牌紙? 19 林文欣先生:係。 20 許偉強資深大律師:係咪? 21 林文欣先生:係。 22 許偉強資深大律師:嗄,之前--即係呢一個對話之前,你冇問過佢攞有關嘅掛牌紙? 23 林樂夫大律師:主席,應該掉番轉問,應該好似,即係掉轉,掉轉問,應該係鍾生問。 24 許偉強資深大律師:係,唔好意思,鍾生第一次問你有關嗰個掛牌紙個問題,係咪? 25 林文欣先生:係。 26 許偉強資深大律師:係,唔該,唔該。 27 陸啟康法官:冇其他問題? 28 許偉強資深大律師:冇,唔該。 29 陸啟康法官:咁都冇其他問題? 30 杜淦堃資深大律師:冇其他問題。 31 陸啟康法官:Okay,咁林生,你作供完畢㗎嘞,多謝你。 32 林文欣先生:好,唔該。 33

34 10 時32 分置邦興業有限公司工程主任證人林文欣先生作供完畢 35

36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第八天

9 本謄本由Epiq 編製 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,主席,我同許大律師傾過下一位證人嗰個處理方法,下一位證人亦 1 都係佢哋最後一位證人係鄭芷盈小姐。兩個問題,佢--第一,我諗許大律師需要十 2 分鐘攞啲指示,基於今朝嘅證供;第二,因為琴日有啲新嘅披露,就係一啲 3 WhatsApp 嘅截圖,咁許大律師想亦都係因為公平起見,佢哋去交代咗先。所以用 4 嘅程序可能同我哋平時有少少唔同,我哋係畀佢大概十零分鐘帶咗呢個證人去睇嗰 5 啲新嘅證供,我哋先至向佢提問嘅。 6 陸啟康法官:好,咁如果係咁嘅話,你都同意?許大律師? 7 許偉強資深大律師:係,同意,唔該,唔該杜大律師,亦都唔該主席。就最主要係因為--大 8 家可能記得上次鍾先生作供嗰陣時,佢最後亦都交代咗係有一啲對話同鄭小姐嘅。 9 但係嗰啲對話喺鍾先生作供嘅時候就未提供嘅,咁之後佢提供咗,咁然後鄭小姐亦 10 都係核對過一啲紀錄。所以我最主要其實我都係想攞少少時間就係同佢最後核對一 11 次嗰個紀錄,因為有好多紀錄都係呢兩天,甚至有時係今朝早先提出嘅。 12 陸啟康法官:明白,我哋絕對明白你嘅困難。 13 許偉強資深大律師:唔該。 14 陸啟康法官:咁我亦都喺度提一提,因為我哋個程序都係話,基本上就算係你嗰方嘅證人, 15 其實都會係由委員會嘅律師先提問。但係呢個其實係一定係有一個彈性處理嘅,所 16 以如果你哋覺得畀到理由嘅話,你哋需要問你哋嘅證人先,你只要畀到理由我,我 17 係會處理你個申請,好似頭先呢一個申請,我哋覺得係有足夠嘅理由咁做嘅,所以 18 我哋都理解,其實好多文件就同我哋一般嘅民事訴訟程序唔同,我哋好多時都係一 19 路調查嗰陣時,一路攞到文件。所以如果對各方公平,我哋都要對各方公平,如果 20 你哋需要啲時間去處理,我哋係可以--會考慮嘅。如果係咁,我哋而家先休息十分 21 鐘,夠唔夠? 22 許偉強資深大律師:保險起見,我諗十五分鐘。 23 陸啟康法官:係,不如我哋--我哋如果十五分鐘,我哋今日就可能一次過聽晒嗰個朝頭早聽 24 個證人,咁我哋休息比較長少少時間。 25 許偉強資深大律師:唔該。 26 陸啟康法官:十五夠未? 27 許偉強資深大律師:夠,唔該。 28 陸啟康法官:休息十五分鐘。 29

30 10 時34 分聆訊押後 31 10 時49 分聆訊恢復 32

33 10 時50 分置邦興業有限公司物業主任證人鄭芷盈女士開始作供 34

35 陸啟康法官:平時我哋開庭唔會咁準時嘅,今日十五分鐘就叫晒我哋排隊喺入面等出嚟㗎 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第八天

10 本謄本由Epiq 編製 嘞。 1 許偉強資深大律師:唔該主席。 2 陸啟康法官:所以你話畀我聽要幾多時間就講準啲,我哋真係十五分鐘就出嚟㗎嘞。 3 許偉強資深大律師:好,唔該。置邦呢邊就而家請鄭芷盈女士作供。 4 係,鄭小姐,就我知道你為咗呢一次委員會嘅調查工作就提交咗一份證人口供 5 嘅。或者我哋可以打開你嗰份證人口供。 6 陸啟康法官:係,請讀個聲明先。 7 許偉強資深大律師:係,唔好意思。 8 鄭芷盈女士:本人鄭芷盈聲明,本人所作的證供,盡本人所知、所悉及所信,均屬真實。 9 許偉強資深大律師:唔該。呢個喺WS2 呢度睇到,你有個證人口供就從呢個1259 頁,總共 10 大概係有十四頁嘅,咁去到1273 嗰度有你嘅簽名。 11 鄭芷盈女士:係。 12 許偉強資深大律師:你可唔可以同委員會確認一下,就係呢一份口供嘅內容係真實無誤嘅? 13 鄭芷盈女士:係。 14 許偉強資深大律師:其實我今日有幾個問題就想同你澄清,最主要就可能你都有聽過,就係 15 前嗰幾日Victory Fire 鍾傑文先生作供嘅時候,佢曾經有提過喺10 月同埋11 16 月可能出現同你一啲對話、一啲交談。 17 鄭芷盈女士:係。 18 許偉強資深大律師:我哋知道Victory Fire 嗰邊亦都提交咗一啲有關WhatsApp 訊息 19 同埋一啲電話紀錄,而你自己亦都係查過個電話紀錄,就都提供咗畀委員會嘅。 20 鄭芷盈女士:係,冇錯。 21 許偉強資深大律師:就住有幾個問題我想問番你嘅。首先,如果我哋可以睇一睇就係鍾傑文 22 先生佢嘅證人口供,喺WS2/1528 嗰度開始。唔該,喺1529,喺佢嘅證人口供就 23 有提及過喺2025 年10 月16 號同埋2025 年10 月17 號有兩次就住佢哋嗰啲技 24 技術人員就去到宏福苑作一啲相關維修工程嘅時候見到嘅事情,就作出咗一啲敘述 25 嘅。 26 鄭芷盈女士:唔。 27 許偉強資深大律師:喺鍾先生畀口供嘅時候,尤其是喺佢被委員會李大律師盤問嘅時候,佢 28 曾經提及過有一個10 月17 號嘅電話交談,我哋喺呢度見到鍾先生證人口供入面就 29 住10 月17 號所發生嘅事情,佢冇特別提過一個同你嘅電話交談嘅。 30 鄭芷盈女士:唔。 31 許偉強資深大律師:但係佢喺嗰個作供嘅時候,就有提過呢個電話交談,如果我哋睇番個謄 32 本,麻煩睇一睇個謄本,係3 月31 號嘅謄本,第19 頁,19 頁如果我哋可以去到 33 第26 行,大概呢度,或者我哋去番前少少,係,大概由第24 行開始,「我有問, 34 不過就唔係問佢哋。」跟住李大律師問「你問邊個?」佢就話「我問管理處鄭小 35 姐。」「幾時問?」「10 月17 號。」「幾點?」「12 點06 分。」李大律師再 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第八天

11 本謄本由Epiq 編製 追問「係,用乜嘢方式去問?」「打電話。」「打畀置邦嘅鄭小姐?」「冇錯。」 1 然後李大律師再問「你問啲乜嘢呀?」「我話『嗰度掛咗牌,係咪?』佢話 2 『係。』咁我同佢講...」即係話同你講「...『你做完之後,你要畀番個除牌紙 3 我』,即係SDN 嘅第三部分,恢復完個系統,連埋相關嘅251。我喺呢一度我係喺 4 呢一段時間我先諗起,我嗰陣時整呢樣嘢嘅時候,我都諗唔起呢一件事嘅,直到我 5 去打電話去查番個紀錄,所以我好肯定係12 點06 分。」我哋呢度停一停先,咁你 6 亦都有查過電話紀錄? 7 鄭芷盈女士:係。 8 許偉強資深大律師:咁而我亦都睇到有相關嘅電話紀錄,如果呢度睇番,就係R2/850,h 9 我哋見到呢度就應該顯示到有一個2025 年10 月17 號嘅電話嘅,咁就應該個d 10 來電就係從鍾先生嘅嚟電,對嘛? 11 鄭芷盈女士:係。 12 許偉強資深大律師:呢度我見到你哋總共嘅談話係1 分08 秒嘅。 13 鄭芷盈女士:唔。 14 許偉強資深大律師:係,我想問一問就住剛才你睇到鍾先生作供嘅時候有講關於佢喺當日同 15 你嗰個對話嘅內容。 16 鄭芷盈女士:係。 17 許偉強資深大律師:你睇完呢啲紀錄之後,你記唔記番起你當時大家講過啲乜嘢? 18 鄭芷盈女士:呢一個通話我真係冇記憶係講過啲乜嘢,因為其實之前我都喺度(English 19 Spoken),check 番自己手機紀錄先知道原來係有呢一個通話,所以我冇印象呢 20 個內容係乜嘢。 21 許偉強資深大律師:明白。就住剛才我哋見到喺個謄本嗰度,鍾先生話喺嗰個電話內容有同 22 你提過除牌紙等等呢啲問題,你記唔記得當天有冇可能同佢講過呢啲問題呢? 23 鄭芷盈女士:應該就冇,我記憶中。 24 許偉強資深大律師:又或者我幫下你記憶,如果我哋睇番你同鍾先生喺嗰段時間嘅一啲 25 WhatsApp 嘅紀錄。 26 鄭芷盈女士:係。 27 許偉強資深大律師:我而家用緊嘅WhatsApp 紀錄就應該係Victory Fire 嗰邊提供 28 嘅。如果我哋可以睇一睇R2/944 開始,呢度就我哋由10 月2 號開始。如果我哋 29 再往下睇少少,第二--唔好意思,去番上面嗰張,呢度就10 月3 號我哋見到。我 30 哋再往後一啲,我哋可以見到10 月8 號同埋10 月9 號嘅情況。跟住一張947 我 31 哋可以見到10 月14 號嘅情況。然後948 我哋就見到有一個係--唔好意思,我哋 32 上番之前嗰張,係,唔該。呢度有個10 月22 號嗰個日期嘅,咁呢度10 月22 號 33 就有一張應該係你提供畀鍾先生,我哋落番下一頁,係,有一封就係消防處嘅信嚟 34 嘅,如果--呢度可能唔係咁清楚呢個內容,如果我哋睇睇H4/6803,睇下可唔可 35 有一張比較清楚少少,就呢一張--呢一封信嘅內容我哋睇一睇。好,唔該,可以清 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第八天

12 本謄本由Epiq 編製 楚少少。咁我哋見到呢一個係你提供畀鍾先生。 1 鄭芷盈女士:唔。 2 許偉強資深大律師:就如果我哋睇第一段,就係「本處收到貴大廈委聘嘅註冊」--可以細少 3 少可能會清楚啲,唔該,唔該晒。「消防裝置承辦商發出消防裝置及設備證書嘅副 4 本,獲悉貴大廈部分消防裝置及設備不在有效操作狀態,註冊承辦商如已為貴大廈 5 修妥損壞的消防裝置或設備,並發出相關證書,請毋須理會本信。」就住你嘅理 6 解,呢一個從消防處發出嘅呢一封信,佢嗰個所講嘅事情係就住邊方面嘅工作? 7 鄭芷盈女士:就住年檢之後嗰個執修工作。 8 許偉強資深大律師:唔,即係由Victory Fire 佢哋進行過嗰個執修嘅工作,係咪? 9 鄭芷盈女士:係,冇錯。 10 許偉強資深大律師:如果我理解冇錯嘅話,應該呢度係要求緊睇下有冇一個FS251,就係可 11 以確定嗰個維修工作係唔係已經完成咗? 12 鄭芷盈女士:係。 13 許偉強資深大律師:一路再睇落去,啱啱個-- 唔好意思,去番WhatsApp 嗰個紀錄, 14 R2/94--我啱啱睇完948,我哋948 再落啲,啱啱我哋睇封信10 月22,跟住去 15 到10 月28,跟住你就問鍾先生「想問下幾時再安排嚟做執修?」然後鍾先回覆 16 「就係我尋日先追啲燈,好鬼死慢。」然後就再落一版,就係我哋可以見到,亦都 17 係講緊一啲即係執修嘅工程個傾談,呢度顯示嘅時間去番10 月22 號。我知道你都 18 睇過呢啲WhatsApp 嘅紀錄。 19 鄭芷盈女士:係。 20 許偉強資深大律師:想問下你,就係你睇完之後,你可唔可以確認一下就係如果我哋睇緊個 21 時間係10 月17 號至到火災發生之前,你同鍾先生嘅對話入面有冇一啲係鍾先生係 22 向問關於SDN 嘅問題或者係掛牌嘅情況? 23 鄭芷盈女士:冇。 24 許偉強資深大律師:唔該。然後我哋又睇一睇另外一個題目,就係如果我哋睇番Victory 25 Fire 證人嘅口供,如果我哋睇一睇黃健華嘅口供,喺1545。有兩位技術人員:黃 26 健華同埋李俊賢都作過供詞嘅。 27 鄭芷盈女士:係。 28 許偉強資深大律師:咁喺佢哋個供詞入面都有及過一個2025 年11 月19 號佢哋所睇到嘅 29 情況。 30 鄭芷盈女士:唔。 31 許偉強資深大律師:呢度我想帶你去睇一睇,就係有關黃先生佢喺第6 段所寫嘅,我哋再落 32 少少,唔該。最後五行,呢度佢講咗喺11 月19 號因為佢哋想做維修工程,跟住發 33 現到個消防泵房總電掣被關上。咁呢度佢哋嘅口供就講話「我立即向宏福苑管理處 34 鄭小姐當面查詢,並得知宏福苑共八座大廈當時正在進行大維修工程,當中包括維 35 修水缸,故需要暫停消防系統,並已就此向消防處掛牌,即向消防處存入消防裝置 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第八天

13 本謄本由Epiq 編製 關閉書,下稱『掛牌』。其後,本人跟進完當日嘅工程事項後,便於當日大概5 點 1 鐘離開宏福苑。」呢度佢係咁講嘅。喺呢度其實就住黃先生嘅口供,佢提及同你嘅 2 對話嘅時候,佢喺供詞入面冇提過11 月19 號有關任何問你關於SDN 嘅問題,呢 3 度我哋睇唔到嘅。 4 鄭芷盈女士:唔。 5 許偉強資深大律師:喺佢作供當天,佢第一次有同委員會講話11 月19 號佢有向你提過呢一 6 個SDN 嘅問題,但係我哋喺問番呢個李俊賢先生嘅時候,李俊賢喺聽證會作供嘅時 7 候,佢同委員會係確認11 月19 號佢係冇問過有關SDN 嘅問題嘅。 8 鄭芷盈女士:唔。 9 許偉強資深大律師:我而家想畀機會你同委員會講一講,就住11 月19 號有關你--黃先生 10 同埋李先生佢哋所講11 月19 號佢哋見到嘅問題之後,你記唔記得你同佢哋有冇過 11 一個電話嘅交談?11 月。 12 鄭芷盈女士:電話交談冇嘅。 13 許偉強資深大律師:你記唔記得月同佢哋有冇提過一啲關於SDN 嘅問題? 14 鄭芷盈女士:冇。 15 許偉強資深大律師:明白。另外一個問題我想問下你嘅,就係呢一度,我哋如果睇下黃先生 16 嘅口供,佢最後幾句就係話「並得知宏福苑共八座當時正在進行大維修工程,當中 17 包括維修水缸,故需要暫停消防系統,並向消防處掛牌。」呢度佢冇特別講到係暫 18 停咗啲乜嘢消防系統,但係當然佢嘅口供入面有提到,當天佢哋有發現關於嗰個消 19 防泵房嗰個總掣被關掉呢個狀況嘅,咁佢哋喺聽證會作供嘅時候,有提及過話同你 20 嘅交談係有講過關於呢一個消防泵房個總掣被關上呢件事嘅。我想問下你自己記唔 21 記得有冇同李先生或者黃先生任何交談入面提過有關呢一個消防泵房嘅總掣被關上 22 呢個問題? 23 鄭芷盈女士:冇提過。 24 許偉強資深大律師:唔該。最後我想同你講一講,就係有關呢一個都係鍾先生嘅口供入面, 25 佢亦都係喺3 月31 號作供嘅時候,亦都第一次同委員會提出有一個11 月21 號嘅 26 電話交談嘅。而家我哋睇一睇嗰個謄本入面嘅內容先,謄本就係2026 年3 月31 27 號第28 頁,如果我哋睇第28 頁由24 行開始嘅。24 行呢度開始,我哋見到就鍾 28 先生就喺回答李大律師嘅問題時候有講過,就係呢度佢話「都有嘅,喺呢一度我都 29 想講,就係當時真係個心情係好差,我亦都唔係好記得到晒所有嘢,直到即係睇到 30 個bundle,睇到啲證供嘅時候,我就再諗下其實我幾時有聯絡過,我記得我係有 31 聯絡過,因為我哋一般程序係會問佢拎個除牌紙,攞...」應該係個SDN 當時講 32 嘅。「然後到我知道咗嘅時候,我就睇番啲WhatsApp 紀錄,喺11 月21 號嘅時 33 候,鄭小姐send 咗水缸相畀我,嗰啲水缸相就係轉運缸、消防缸,有個牌寫住幾 34 時維修好等等,都係好耐咁樣。然後我就畀咗個電話佢,因為其實我真係唔係好記 35 得咗,但係直到我查到個電話紀錄,我畀咗個電話佢,其實我就係話...」佢呢度 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第八天

14 本謄本由Epiq 編製 好實際咁講畀我哋聽同你講咗啲咩嘢嘅。「...『你做完之後畀番個除牌紙我,畀 1 番個SDN 我,我哋就再做跟住做測試』咁樣。」 2 鄭芷盈女士:唔。 3 許偉強資深大律師:我哋呢度如果睇番啲電話嘅紀錄,關於呢個11 月21 號嘅電話紀錄先, 4 我哋如果睇一睇R2/851,我哋見到11 月21 日,即係鍾先生所講嗰個電話應該, 5 因為我哋睇到呢度嗰日係有一個係同鍾先生個電話脗合嘅紀錄嚟嘅,睇到嘛? 6 鄭芷盈女士:睇到。 7 許偉強資深大律師:呢度我哋見到有一個時間就係九秒嘅,九秒,九秒。然後如果我哋睇下 8 有關嗰個喺電話上面顯示到嘅紀錄,H5/6815,呢度我哋睇到都係15 點20 分, 9 同我哋剛才睇個時間一樣,呢度有個係寫住就係「從宏泰消防鍾生」,就應該係你 10 個電話紀錄入面係咁樣寫,係咪? 11 鄭芷盈女士:冇錯,唔。 12 許偉強資深大律師:呢度我哋見到前面有個咁嘅紅色嘅一個咁嘅標誌,以我嘅理解,一般嚟 13 講係一個即係我哋所講嘅miss call,即係接唔到個電話嘅嘅情況?你同唔同意 14 係咁樣嘅情況呀? 15 鄭芷盈女士:同意。 16 許偉強資深大律師:咁你可唔可以確認一下就住鍾先生當日所講話11 月21 日有同你呢一個 17 電話嘅對話,講過剛才我哋睇到謄本嘅嘢,你可唔可以確認一下呢一個對話有冇發 18 生過㗎? 19 鄭芷盈女士:冇。 20 許偉強資深大律師:如果我哋再清楚少少,睇番嗰個WhatsApp 紀錄。 21 鄭芷盈女士:唔。 22 許偉強資深大律師:因為對鍾生公平啲。 23 鄭芷盈女士:係。 24 許偉強資深大律師:因為佢喺嗰個謄本入面有提過話有啲水缸相片嘅。 25 鄭芷盈女士:唔。 26 許偉強資深大律師:如果我哋呢度睇下,就係喺R2--R2 嘅951,呢度我哋都係睇到有一個 27 11 月21 號有個紀錄,唔該,唔該,杜大律師提我因為我哋有兩個版本嘅 28 WhatsApp 紀錄,一個從鍾生嗰邊嚟嘅,一個從我哋呢邊嚟嘅,杜大律師提我,就 29 從我哋呢邊嘅嗰個紀錄可能顯示得清楚啲,所以我家會用,H4/6807,唔該。 30 陸啟康法官:H4。 31 許偉強資深大律師:6807,唔該,呢度就應該係從你嗰邊提供,同阿鍾生嗰個WhatsApp 32 紀錄嚟嘅。 33 鄭芷盈女士:係。 34 許偉強資深大律師:我哋呢度可以睇到11 月21 號個情況就係有啲水缸嘅相,我哋呢度見到 35 話你同鍾生講話「鍾生,呢度有消防缸入咗水嘅相,想問下做完執修可唔可以簽番 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第八天

15 本謄本由Epiq 編製 畀消防?」。呢個都係講緊佢執修有關年檢發現嗰啲問題嗰啲執修喇。 1 鄭芷盈女士:係,冇錯。 2 許偉強資深大律師:然後你再講就話「同埋想睇下宏新閣消防泵換咗未,今日有消防打嚟 3 問,下星期會嚟巡查。」咁呢度亦都有另外一啲嘅訊息,如果我再拉到下面嗰一頁 4 喇。另外,亦都入有啲轉發嘅相片咁。呢個應該係鍾生轉發畀你嘅一啲相片嚟嘅, 5 你就再追問番,佢就話「係咪已經維修咗?」等等,如果我哋再落去呢,佢就話 6 「係」,跟住就冇嘞,就去到11 月28 號,睇到嘛? 7 鄭芷盈女士:唔,睇到。 8 許偉強資深大律師:所以呢度似乎呢度所顯示嘅WhatsApp 紀錄呢,... 9 鄭芷盈女士:係。 10 許偉強資深大律師:...應該就係冇顯示到剛才鍾生就住喺謄本入面佢所講,同你個交談嘅 11 內容嘅,同唔同意? 12 鄭芷盈女士:同意。 13 許偉強資深大律師:好,唔該晒,我冇其他問題。 14 陸啟康法官:好,唔該晒。跟住我想請杜大律師,唔該。 15 杜淦堃資深大律師:鄭小姐,你好。 16 鄭芷盈女士:你好。 17 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋代表委員會有啲問題想問你。許大律師就帶你去確認咗你第一份嘅 18 證人供詞。 19 鄭芷盈女士:係。 20 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想提一提你,除咗第一份之外,你有一份補充嘅證人工資,係短啲 21 嘅。 22 鄭芷盈女士:冇錯。 23 杜淦堃資深大律師:你都記得? 24 鄭芷盈女士:記得。 25 杜淦堃資深大律師:係3 月30 號先交嘅。 26 鄭芷盈女士:係。 27 杜淦堃資深大律師:另外你仲有一份畀警方嘅口供嘅。 28 鄭芷盈女士:係。 29 杜淦堃資深大律師:我相信你都會確認,其實另外嗰兩份文件裏面嘅內容都係準確嘅? 30 鄭芷盈女士:冇錯。 31 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋講番一啲你嘅經驗先,我哋知道你係2014 年8 月已經係開始喺 32 ISS 度工作,並且派到宏福苑做物業主任嘅? 33 鄭芷盈女士:係。 34 杜淦堃資深大律師:而一般你嘅職責係,基本上係處理屋苑嘅日常運作,發一啲通告,處理 35 同法團有關嘅日常業務? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第八天

16 本謄本由Epiq 編製 鄭芷盈女士:係。 1 杜淦堃資深大律師:同埋係管理處嘅工作。 2 鄭芷盈女士:唔,冇錯。 3 杜淦堃資深大律師:仲有處理投訴? 4 鄭芷盈女士:係,係。 5 杜淦堃資深大律師:你嘅上司係高級物業經理黎永利先生,係咪? 6 鄭芷盈女士:係。 7 杜淦堃資深大律師:佢都係住喺宏福苑嗰度嘅我哋了解? 8 鄭芷盈女士:係,冇錯。 9 杜淦堃資深大律師:而喺嗰個架構上高,你喺管理處嘅同事亦都有--之前畀過供嘅駱倩盈女 10 士,你就算係佢上司,係咪? 11 鄭芷盈女士:係。 12 杜淦堃資深大律師:真係唔好意思,因為喺你公司傳召嘅證人裏面你係最高級嘅,所以有啲 13 問題可能你未必會答到,但係我諗職責上高我哋都要--或者基於我哋要考慮嘅問 14 題,我都要問咗。 15 鄭芷盈女士:知道。 16 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係如果唔係你嘅認為或者唔係你嘅工作範圍,你可以話畀我哋聽。 17 鄭芷盈女士:唔,好。 18 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋知道黎生唔會嚟到協助我哋? 19 鄭芷盈女士:應該唔會,好似係。 20 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,你知唔知點解? 21 鄭芷盈女士:唔係咁清楚。 22 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔。我哋都知道有位林文欣先生,你亦都見到佢畀過口供? 23 鄭芷盈女士:係。 24 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋大家都知道林生其實喺2025 年嘅4 月1 號到10 月7 號就離開宏 25 福苑嘅,離開咗公司嘅? 26 鄭芷盈女士:唔,係。 27 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,佢提到有位姓馬嘅,做咗兩個月嘅。 28 鄭芷盈女士:係,冇錯。 29 杜淦堃資深大律師:係呀,嗰位姓馬嘅係幾時做到幾時呀,你講唔講到? 30 鄭芷盈女士:大概係4 月尾做到6 月中咁上下。 31 杜淦堃資深大律師:你知唔知點解做咗兩個月就走咗? 32 鄭芷盈女士:因為佢話上樓跟嘅case 太多。 33 杜淦堃資深大律師:咩嘢case 話? 34 鄭芷盈女士:上樓要跟進嘅case,即係可能係入面--我哋洗手間入面有個德籠㗎嘛叫做, 35 咁可能嗰啲滲漏嗰啲case。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第八天

17 本謄本由Epiq 編製 杜淦堃資深大律師:佢就係頂替林生嘅工作㗎? 1 鄭芷盈女士:係。 2 杜淦堃資深大律師:佢離開咗之後,嗰幾個月林生嘅工作邊個處理? 3 鄭芷盈女士:我同黎經理同埋駱小姐都會有啲,不過,我同駱小姐就係即係普通可能都係頭 4 先我提到,可能有啲滲漏要維修,咁可能出一啲報價嘅工作咁樣囉。 5 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係林先生嗰個職責,佢係會管理嗰兩位師傅㗎嘛? 6 鄭芷盈女士:係。 7 杜淦堃資深大律師:佢其實係一個有牌嘅電工嚟㗎嘛? 8 鄭芷盈女士:係,冇錯。 9 杜淦堃資深大律師:你哋三位應該冇嗰個專業資格,係咪? 10 鄭芷盈女士:冇。 11 杜淦堃資深大律師:所以如果有啲需要技術上高嘅問題嘅協助,你三位應該係做唔到㗎,係 12 咪呀? 13 鄭芷盈女士:做唔到,或者即係譬如可能係泵嘅問題,可能我哋就問番水泵嘅承辦商咁樣 14 囉,唔。 15 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔。可唔可以咁講呢,即係其實佢個工作嗰兩個月,就冇一個有同樣資 16 格嘅人去協助? 17 鄭芷盈女士:係。 18 杜淦堃資深大律師:我都想你協助我哋關於一啲合約文件嘅,當然,我唔知道你有冇睇過, 19 如果冇睇過,你可以話我知。 20 鄭芷盈女士:唔。 21 杜淦堃資深大律師:Bundle H1-1/第1 頁,呢個係你哋公司同埋宏福苑立案法團嗰個屋 22 苑管理合約,因為呢個就裏面嘅資料講到畀我哋知,其實你哋嘅工作係包括啲乜嘢 23 嘅? 24 鄭芷盈女士:係。 25 杜淦堃資深大律師:如果我哋去第7 頁呢,我哋會睇到6.3,法團就賦予你哋嘅權力執行管 26 理業務,包括一系列工作嘅,我哋見到(e)嗰度,你睇睇(e)。 27 鄭芷盈女士:係。 28 杜淦堃資深大律師:安排保養同埋更換公共地方嘅照明、通風同消防設備。 29 鄭芷盈女士:唔。 30 杜淦堃資深大律師:首先你會唔會知道呢份合約個內容? 31 鄭芷盈女士:唔會。 32 杜淦堃資深大律師:你唔會,但係我相信你會同意,喺你工作嘅範疇裏面應該就會包咗呢一 33 項嘅,係咪呀? 34 鄭芷盈女士:係,冇錯。 35 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔,我哋如果睇(k),呢度提到保養同埋維修水泵、水箱、喉管、溝 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第八天

18 本謄本由Epiq 編製 渠、電線同埋其他公共設施,我相信你平時工作都會包括呢一個項目嘅? 1 鄭芷盈女士:係。 2 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋都睇埋(r)同一頁下低「負責與政府有關部門聯絡,反映法團同埋 3 各分層業主嘅意見同埋保障佢哋嘅利益」我相信呢個你都明白,同你哋有有做到 4 嘅,係咪? 5 鄭芷盈女士:唔。 6 杜淦堃資深大律師:根據呢一份合約2.2 條,法團個委員會會有一份,你哋有一份附件2 7 嘅,就係有個評核表去檢討你哋嘅服務,我想你睇睇嗰個附件2,喺15 頁,5.4, 8 我哋見到行政管理裏面呢,亦都會包括就係書面申訴個案同埋跟進嘅,即係有人投 9 訴,你哋當然要處理個投訴同埋跟進番,呢個都有做嘅,係咪? 10 鄭芷盈女士:係,冇錯。 11 杜淦堃資深大律師:如果睇番前嗰頁呢,保安嗰個範疇,如果我哋睇2.3「主管巡邏及投訴 12 的報告和跟進情況」,呢個都係有處理,係咪? 13 鄭芷盈女士:係。 14 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔。另外,我哋--你哋提交嘅文件裏面有一個叫做「保安工作指引」 15 嘅,喺Bundle H1-3/6639 頁,我哋如果去番呢個文件前面,呢個係你公司嘅 16 保安工作指引。 17 鄭芷盈女士:唔。 18 杜淦堃資深大律師:我相信呢一份文件,你會接觸過,係咪呀? 19 鄭芷盈女士:係。 20 杜淦堃資深大律師:你入職嘅時候有冇安排一啲叫做介紹,或者將呢啲文件同你哋一齊去檢 21 閱? 22 鄭芷盈女士:我入職嘅時候,係咪我呀?我入職嘅時候就冇嘅。咁呢個係... 23 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢啲文件你幾時第一次睇呀咁? 24 鄭芷盈女士:呢個係公司有send 落嚟,就話要畀員工去睇嘅,我哋有管理處同埋座頭佢哋 25 都有擺放,咁叫啲員工去睇咁樣嘅。。 26 杜淦堃資深大律師:所以你係睇過嘅你確認,係咪? 27 鄭芷盈女士:係。 28 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋去番6639 頁,我哋見到呢度第二張,我睇到A2 條,巡邏其中一 29 個目的就係防止同埋偵測潛在嘅火警危險。呢個相信你哋嘅同事都會理解嘅,係 30 咪? 31 鄭芷盈女士:係,冇錯。 32 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋睇過嗰幾個文件,似乎應該冇爭議嘅就係如果就一啲消防風險有人 33 投訴嘅話,似乎ISS 就係有個合約責任去紀錄、去調查,同埋應該會同有關方面, 34 包括政府部門去跟進嘅,我相信呢個你同意嘅? 35 鄭芷盈女士:係,同意。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第八天

19 本謄本由Epiq 編製 杜淦堃資深大律師:似乎處理呢啲投訴嘅表現呢,都有一個機制係會評核番你哋嘅表現嘅, 1 係咪咁呀? 2 鄭芷盈女士:唔,係。 3 杜淦堃資深大律師:而你哋亦都係有責任去維修同埋保養宏福苑嗰啲水泵、水箱、同埋安排 4 保養嗰啲防火措施,呢個你都同意,係咪? 5 鄭芷盈女士:同意。 6 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔,而你哋個巡邏,除咗確保一啲其他嘅風險,例如爆竊、居民嘅安全 7 之外,火警風險係其中一個提過多過一次嘅範疇嚟嘅,呢個你明白㗎嘛,係咪呀? 8 鄭芷盈女士:係。 9 杜淦堃資深大律師:另外我想你睇睇另一份文件,H1-1 ,去到31 頁。呢個係叫做 10 「(English Spoken )」,呢份係置邦同埋嗰個承辦商宏泰消防Victory 11 Fire 訂立嘅合約。 12 鄭芷盈女士:唔。 13 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢個你有冇認知?呢份文件。 14 鄭芷盈女士:有睇過。 15 杜淦堃資深大律師:你都有睇過? 16 鄭芷盈女士:唔。 17 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁麻煩你睇睇第6 條,既然你睇過,相信你都會同意其實第6 條就規定 18 咗Victory Fire 要向消防處提交我哋喺呢個聆訊裏面都講過嗰份FS251 嘅證 19 件嘅,證書。 20 鄭芷盈女士:唔,唔。 21 杜淦堃資深大律師:同埋向業主或者你哋以代理人嘅身份提供副本,呢個你都明白㗎嘛,係 22 咪? 23 鄭芷盈女士:唔。 24 杜淦堃資深大律師:而宏泰消防亦都需要喺檢查系統後十四日內去你--就佢哋嘅檢查向你哋 25 提交年度報告同埋有啲事故報告嘅,呢個你都知㗎嘛,係咪? 26 鄭芷盈女士:係。 27 杜淦堃資深大律師:FS251,你知道係政府法定證書嚟嘅,係咪? 28 鄭芷盈女士:唔。 29 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢個你嘅理解係咪都係咁呢?其實喺消防安全方面,呢個好似係一個證 30 書去確保個消防系統查過,一切都係正常運作,你都明白呢樣嘢,係咪? 31 鄭芷盈女士:係。 32 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋知道你哋就宏福苑當然係有收過呢啲FS251 嘅證書,係咪? 33 鄭芷盈女士:唔,冇錯。 34 杜淦堃資深大律師:你自己都有見過,係咪? 35 鄭芷盈女士:有見過。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第八天

20 本謄本由Epiq 編製 杜淦堃資深大律師:而你嘅證人供詞,如果我帶你睇番呢,58 段呢,你50--57 段嘅時 1 候,你其實嗰個標題係「宏泰工作範圍」嘅,去到58 段嗰度你咁講嘅,你話「我 2 理解宏泰已於2025 年3 月24 日完成宏福苑各座大廈嘅年度FSI 檢查,並於3 3 月31 日向消防處就交咗呢個FSI,但係你哋係5 月中先收到有關嘅FSI 嘅。」你 4 確認呢個準確,係咪? 5 鄭芷盈女士:係。 6 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想問下你哋嘅流程,你收到呢個FSI 你會睇㗎嘛,係咪?Sorry, 7 FS251。 8 鄭芷盈女士:哦,平時如果我收到,我會畀咗黎經理先,咁如果林生即係有在職嘅時候,我 9 都會通知佢叫佢睇。 10 杜淦堃資深大律師:你講你收到會畀佢哋睇喇。 11 鄭芷盈女士:唔,唔。 12 杜淦堃資深大律師:我諗我個問題係,你會唔會睇下嗰個內容? 13 鄭芷盈女士:我自己冇仔細睇。 14 杜淦堃資深大律師:因為有時裏面會有啲內容係需要去跟進或者需要去考慮嘅,咁呢個你嘅 15 意思就係一係就黎生睇、一係就林生睇,咁呢個就平時你哋嘅工作嗰個流程,就唔 16 係你嘅範疇,係咪咁? 17 鄭芷盈女士:係。 18 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係我相信你會同意嘅,如果你唔去研究下證書裏面嘅內容或者消防處 19 有啲咩嘢嘅指示,你哋好難去跟進你哋嘅工作嘅,因為可能有啲嘢係需要我哋--或 20 者香港人叫用英文講follow up 咁樣,係咪? 21 鄭芷盈女士:唔,冇錯。 22 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔。想問下你另外一個文件,相信你都理解,如果個消防系統或者有關 23 嘅設施係關閉超過24 小時嘅時候會有一份要向消防處提交一個叫做(English 24 Spoken)SDN,你知㗎,係咪? 25 鄭芷盈女士:係。 26 杜淦堃資深大律師:你在職嘅時候已經知道呢樣嘢,唔係因為呢次火警? 27 鄭芷盈女士:係。 28 杜淦堃資深大律師:而註冊承辦商例如宏泰,如果佢要關閉有關嘅消防系統,管理處一定知 29 㗎嘛,係咪? 30 鄭芷盈女士:係。 31 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係佢都會畀番個--佢要交個SDN,佢要同你講,佢交咗,你哋都會有 32 副本,係咪咁呀? 33 鄭芷盈女士:宏泰消防,我印象中就冇收過佢曾經有畀過呢啲SDN 我哋嘅。 34 杜淦堃資深大律師:駱倩盈小姐佢就話宏泰嘅職員係會透過WhatsApp 提交有關嘅關閉通知 35 書畀佢,有蓋印日期畀佢哋,佢呢個係喺禮拜三講嘅,佢講嗰陣你喺唔喺度? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第八天

21 本謄本由Epiq 編製 鄭芷盈女士:喺度? 1 杜淦堃資深大律師:係嘞,所以你可能都會記得佢咁講過,有個交WhatsApp 呢一樣嘢交畀 2 佢,你有冇啲群組係你同宏泰都有份㗎?定係只係單對單㗎? 3 鄭芷盈女士:冇群組。 4 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁你知唔知道佢係咪有交過畀駱小姐? 5 鄭芷盈女士:應該就冇,因為我諗駱小姐提及應該係大維修嗰邊嘅承辦商嗰間,而唔係宏泰 6 消防,唔。 7 杜淦堃資深大律師:我可以同你糾正番一點,佢提過嗰個嘅係宏業,唔係宏泰。 8 鄭芷盈女士:係呀。 9 杜淦堃資深大律師:如果係宏業嘅話,你有冇收過? 10 鄭芷盈女士:宏業,我冇。 11 杜淦堃資深大律師:駱小姐嘅證供話因為你哋個office 好細,如果收到嘅時候呢,佢嘅講 12 法就係佢收到佢會講出嚟,啊,我今日收到宏仁閣呢張通知書嘞咁樣樣,佢就話冇 13 特登同經理、同主任講嘅,你有冇印象呢樣嘢? 14 鄭芷盈女士:有印象,佢係會有咁樣講嘅。 15 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔,咁即係換句話講,你有印象係入過呢啲(English Spoken)而 16 你係知道。 17 鄭芷盈女士:係。 18 杜淦堃資深大律師:你知道畀咗管理處嘅,係咪? 19 鄭芷盈女士:係,冇錯。 20 杜淦堃資深大律師:而如果有呢啲嘅(English Spoken)係有通告話畀住戶聽,係咪? 21 鄭芷盈女士:係。 22 杜淦堃資深大律師:而嗰啲通告亦都係管理處處理㗎喇係咪會? 23 鄭芷盈女士:如果係宏業嗰邊,以我所知係宏業負責張貼嘅。 24 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔,但係佢哋會同你哋講聲㗎嘛,係咪呀?定係佢想自己貼咗唔話你 25 知? 26 鄭芷盈女士:呢個我唔係好清楚,因為我冇喺大維修入面嗰個群組嗰度。 27 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔。如果你睇下R1/78 頁,我哋畀你睇睇。你有冇印象?呢份文件。 28 鄭芷盈女士:有啲印象。 29 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係你喺你工作期間應該係見過嘅,係咪? 30 鄭芷盈女士:係,冇錯。 31 杜淦堃資深大律師:如果你睇下呢份文件嘅底部,因為佢哋都講話如果發生火警叫你打999 32 或者通知物業管理處嘅職員嘅。 33 鄭芷盈女士:唔。 34 杜淦堃資深大律師:我都想你睇睇F2/355 頁,管理處應該係會知道有工程進行,所以呢, 35 有啲系統會關閉。而因為呢啲系統關閉呢,要等一啲臨時嘅,或者因為咁要擺一啲 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第八天

22 本謄本由Epiq 編製 額外嘅滅火筒嘅,所以就呢一啲文件,你哋冇可能唔清楚,係咪? 1 鄭芷盈女士:係,冇錯。 2 杜淦堃資深大律師:所以管理處應該係好清楚,亦都會跟進幾時有呢個(English 3 Spoken)? 4 鄭芷盈女士:唔。 5 杜淦堃資深大律師:幾時會開始番,(English Spoken)幾耐,呢啲嘢你哋都會--應該 6 係好清楚同埋有文件紀錄,係咪? 7 鄭芷盈女士:有文件紀錄,不過,因為呢個係牽涉亦都係宏業嗰邊呢,咁就一般filing 就 8 駱小姐我知道佢有--即係電腦嗰度有filing 呢啲資料嘅。 9 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係出呢啲通告畀業主,就唔係淨係駱小姐一個知嘅,係咪呀? 10 鄭芷盈女士:哦,唔係,唔係。 11 杜淦堃資深大律師:你哋個寫字樓得幾個人咋嘛,如果... 12 鄭芷盈女士:係,我哋都會知道嘅。 13 杜淦堃資深大律師:係嘞,即係如果嗰個消防系統係停咗嘅,應該全個office 都會知,係 14 咪? 15 鄭芷盈女士:係,係。 16 杜淦堃資深大律師:而你哋亦都會有責任去跟進停咗幾耐、幾時開番,因為其實停消防系統 17 唔係一件小事嚟嘅,同意嘛? 18 鄭芷盈女士:同意。 19 杜淦堃資深大律師:就你嘅參與,我都想你睇一睇另外一份文件B2/1637,呢個係有關你哋 20 屋苑,消防處向管理處發出嘅一個勸喻信(English Spoken)嘅紀錄嚟嘅,你 21 睇下呢一度你會見到佢有咁嘅紀錄嘅,第4 段,你由第2 段開始睇。 22 鄭芷盈女士:係。 23 杜淦堃資深大律師:佢話--相信你睇得明裏面嘅英文,係咪? 24 鄭芷盈女士:係。 25 杜淦堃資深大律師:佢話「(English Spoken )」,跟住就話「(English 26 Spoken)」,咁上高指嗰個鍾先生應該就係註冊承辦商嘅鍾先生,係咪? 27 鄭芷盈女士:唔。 28 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係宏泰--Victory Fire 嘅鍾先生? 29 鄭芷盈女士:係。 30 杜淦堃資深大律師:跟住我哋見到第3 段就話有個(English Spoken)8 月23 號,跟 31 住就話睇完之後,嗰個情況同之前講嘅一樣。第4 段我想你留意嘅就係,佢咁講 32 「(English Spoken)」,跟住有個文件「(English Spoken)」,呢個 33 “Ms. Chan”應該係你喇,係咪呀? 34 鄭芷盈女士:係。 35 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢個係你個寫字樓電話,係咪? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第八天

23 本謄本由Epiq 編製 鄭芷盈女士:係,冇錯。 1 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係有關消防嗰啲勸喻信其實都係發畀你嘅,你代表管理處去處理咗呢 2 件事,係咪? 3 鄭芷盈女士:我記得佢嚟巡查,佢有交過,係嘞,交過呢封信畀我。 4 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔。我相信你會同意置邦或者你哋嘅工作範疇去睇到,其實ISS 本身就 5 大廈嘅消防安全,其實你哋自己係有一定嘅責任,而我相信你都會同意你哋唔係就 6 咁交咗畀消防承辦商,跟住就可以置身事外嘅,你會同意嘛? 7 鄭芷盈女士:同意。 8 杜淦堃資深大律師:另外一樣嘢我想你幫幫忙嘅就係一啲投訴當時,我哋知道大維修衍生咗 9 好多投訴,有啲投訴嘅處理係駱倩盈小姐去處理,佢都會向你匯報㗎,係咪? 10 鄭芷盈女士:有啲如果比較特別,會囉。 11 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔,有冇啲住戶都向你投訴㗎? 12 鄭芷盈女士:都有嘅。 13 杜淦堃資深大律師:都有嘅,因為其實你做咗一段時間,好多街坊都識你,係咪? 14 鄭芷盈女士:係。 15 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔,駱小姐會聽到呢啲投訴嘅電話喇,你會唔會都去聽或者去同啲住戶 16 傾㗎? 17 鄭芷盈女士:如果佢話搵我,我就會接嗰個電話。 18 杜淦堃資深大律師:都會有時有呢個情況。 19 鄭芷盈女士:係。 20 杜淦堃資深大律師:有啲人識你都會搵你? 21 鄭芷盈女士:係,係嘞,係嘞,冇錯。 22 杜淦堃資深大律師:係嘞,我想你睇睇C1-1/749 頁,呢個係大維修投訴紀錄,呢個紀錄應 23 該係駱小姐去處理嘅,但係我相信你會睇過喇? 24 鄭芷盈女士:係。 25 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋見到裏面有好幾項,之前我同駱小姐都睇過,你都喺度。譬如睇下 26 第5 項,或者我哋去到第758 頁,第207,係,落啲,一路落,落到底,204 27 咁。或者去到766 頁,391 項,我哋當中都搵到有啲投訴係同吸煙有關嘅。 28 鄭芷盈女士:唔。 29 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋見到嗰個處理方法都係話「已通知宏業或者法團」,係咪? 30 鄭芷盈女士:係。 31 杜淦堃資深大律師:除咗呢本大維修嘅投訴紀錄之外,就住戶提出嘅投訴有冇其他紀錄㗎? 32 鄭芷盈女士:唔好意思,可唔可以重複個問題。 33 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想問下,除咗呢一份文件之外,住戶打嚟投訴會唔會有其他嘅紀錄? 34 鄭芷盈女士:因為我哋有分開嘅,呢個大維修紀錄簿係我哋獨立一本,專係為咗大維修嘅投 35 訴紀錄會寫落去嘅,如果日常屋苑嘅話,就係另外一本總紀錄簿嚟嘅。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第八天

24 本謄本由Epiq 編製 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔,即係換句話講,唔同嘅投訴有唔同嘅記錄,但係因為呢啲似乎同工 1 人同大維修有關,所以就喺呢度。 2 鄭芷盈女士:係,冇錯。 3 杜淦堃資深大律師:吸煙嗰個問題,其實我哋知道就唔係淨係啲住戶打嚟投訴,其實開會都 4 有講過喇,係咪? 5 鄭芷盈女士:以我所知,工程會議嗰度係有嘅。 6 杜淦堃資深大律師:係嘞,我哋睇C11,Bundle C1-1/651 頁,對你公道啲,呢啲會議 7 我哋發覺好多時係黎經理同埋駱小姐去嘅,所以你冇直接參與嘅。但係我想話會議 8 嘅內容同埋之後嘅摘要。 9 鄭芷盈女士:唔。 10 杜淦堃資深大律師:你清唔清楚㗎? 11 鄭芷盈女士:有時我會攞嚟睇下嘅都會。 12 杜淦堃資深大律師:駱小姐做完使唔使畀你或者黎經理睇? 13 鄭芷盈女士:佢會畀黎經理睇。 14 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想睇下你第8 項你知唔知嘞。 15 鄭芷盈女士:唔。 16 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢度紀錄咗話關於工人吸煙嘅問題,經商討後,法團會交畀宏業一個月 17 時間去改善,增設咗指定嘅吸煙區,跟住佢哋話如果呢個情況再出現呢,就會有以 18 下嘅程序,影相、確認工人身份、罰款、訓示或者解僱。你當時知唔知道有呢一個 19 建議? 20 鄭芷盈女士:呢個記得有聽過佢哋開完會番嚟嘅時候有講過嘅。 21 杜淦堃資深大律師:你自己知唔知道一個月之後,呢一個係2025 年3 月,一個月後有冇改 22 善呀? 23 鄭芷盈女士:應該就唔係太大改善。 24 杜淦堃資深大律師:所以之後開嘅會都有提過,635 頁,我亦都係留意到係你啲同事去,但 25 係黎經理唔喺度,所以我都想問一問你。 26 鄭芷盈女士:係。 27 杜淦堃資深大律師:睇到第19 項,亦都有一啲關於消防嘅問題,呢一啲你有冇留意到? 28 鄭芷盈女士:可唔可以睇一睇先?唔好意思。 29 杜淦堃資深大律師:好呀,第一個,你睇第一點。 30 鄭芷盈女士:係,哦,呢一個知道,第一點。 31 杜淦堃資深大律師:因為呢個係個管理處報告,所以你應該會理解裏面嘅問題,係咪? 32 鄭芷盈女士:係,係。 33 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想問一問你嘅就係據你嘅記憶,你都有參與呢個聽證會,你都知道居 34 民就其他一啲同火警有關,火警風險有關嘅事情都有投訴喇。 35 鄭芷盈女士:係。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第八天

25 本謄本由Epiq 編製 杜淦堃資深大律師:發泡膠、棚網、嗰個樓梯改裝成生口,或者有啲建築垃圾,佢哋都驚會 1 著火,係咪? 2 鄭芷盈女士:係。 3 杜淦堃資深大律師:你當時都有聽過--或多或少喇,唔同程度都有聽過呢啲投訴嘅,係咪 4 呀? 5 鄭芷盈女士:唔,有嘅。 6 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋知道喺呢個聽證會度,居民都提出咗佢哋之前一啲嘅投訴嘅,我想 7 問下你管理處知唔知道以下嘅情況?佢哋提過話天井位有大量嘅廢物,包括一啲建 8 築材料嘅,你哋知唔知呀? 9 鄭芷盈女士:天井位我就冇印象有收過呢個投訴,其他你話垃圾嗰啲就有收過。 10 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔,可唔可以咁講呢?管理處有嘗試同宏業溝通嘅,就嗰啲問題? 11 鄭芷盈女士:係。 12 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係似乎就冇乜改善嘅嗰啲問題,我哋見到,其實嗰啲投訴就冇話喺一 13 個階段停咗嘅,同意嘛? 14 鄭芷盈女士:唔,同意。 15 杜淦堃資深大律師:我琴日就喺你另外一位同事畀證供嘅時候,我就咁樣同佢提出過嘅,我 16 話就即係大家都比較關注吸煙嗰個問題, 17 鄭芷盈女士:唔。 18 杜淦堃資深大律師:似乎就係你哋有向宏業反映,亦都有提過一啲措施。 19 鄭芷盈女士:係。 20 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係似乎正如你頭先所講,情況都冇乜改善。 21 鄭芷盈女士:係。 22 杜淦堃資深大律師:係嘞,但你哋同咗佢講,但係似乎ISS 就冇乜進一步嘅行動去跟進或者 23 去協助居民處理呢一個問題,我琴日就用做一個講法話你哋似乎就好似做咗個「傳 24 聲筒」咁,你覺得呢個講法,你會唔會覺得唔公道或者唔同意? 25 鄭芷盈女士:我只可以話因為其實我哋真係控制唔到宏業嗰啲工人,即係我哋又冇權去炒佢 26 哋喇叫做。 27 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白,即係我明白即係你哋作為可能前線嘅員工,做到嘅嘢可能你覺得 28 有限。 29 鄭芷盈女士:係,係。 30 杜淦堃資深大律師:你只係可以勸喻,你冇執法嘅權力? 31 鄭芷盈女士:係,即係因為--同埋後期都知道佢哋話--如果知道,就會即時即係話唔用嗰個 32 工人咁樣嘅。 33 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係你知唔知道實際上高有冇做到呢啲嘢? 34 鄭芷盈女士:實際我就即係唔知佢有冇做到,係。 35 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,而當然呢個問題,我唔係對你個人嘅批評,但係似乎係你哋公司都 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第八天

26 本謄本由Epiq 編製 冇去進一步嘅行動去處理嘅,係咪? 1 鄭芷盈女士:係。 2 杜淦堃資深大律師:另外,我想同你探討就係生口嘅問題,你哋有--你嘅證供都有提過,而 3 即係for 個紀錄喺46 段,你哋係知道有呢個每五層改為生口呢個做法嘅? 4 鄭芷盈女士:係。 5 杜淦堃資深大律師:而你哋畀--公司畀前線員工嘅指示就基本上話要確保收工嘅時候鎖番? 6 鄭芷盈女士:係,冇錯。 7 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁講啱唔啱?即係就你嘅理解而言,你哋公司似乎冇留意到,或者你哋- 8 -你同你哋嘅同事冇人有嗰個警覺性,留意到呢個係一個風險嚟嘅,咁講啱唔啱? 9 鄭芷盈女士:可唔可以再講過嗰個風險係屬於... 10 杜淦堃資深大律師:我講得清楚少少,而家我哋當然係時候去睇番,大家都相信同意個生口 11 係危險嘅,因為呢個破壞咗嗰個走火樓梯,令到--而喺呢件事件上高,我哋知道好 12 多煙係由外面嘅竹棚係攻陷咗條樓梯。 13 鄭芷盈女士:唔,係。 14 杜淦堃資深大律師:所以呢個生口係一個消防嘅風險嚟,當時你哋冇留意呢個問題,係咪? 15 鄭芷盈女士:係,冇錯。 16 杜淦堃資深大律師:其實呢個生口嘅風險,我想講嘅就係宏業呢個做法,你哋自己本身冇去 17 考慮過,所以你哋亦都冇嗰個警覺性同冇行動,係咪? 18 鄭芷盈女士:因為即係有聘請過鴻毅做嗰個即係工程顧問,咁我哋都會相信佢係呢方面嘅專 19 業。 20 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想問番你另外一個問題。 21 鄭芷盈女士:唔。 22 杜淦堃資深大律師:第一就係你頭先提到嗰個吸煙嘅問題。 23 鄭芷盈女士:唔。 24 杜淦堃資深大律師:亦都我哋探討過個垃圾嗰個問題。我想問下你,我哋而家大家都知道嗰 25 個火警似乎就喺104、105 號位中間嗰個光井嗰度開始發生,所以大家比較關注嗰 26 個光井。 27 鄭芷盈女士:係。 28 杜淦堃資深大律師:喺維修前係唔應該有人入去個光井嗰度,所以鎖住咗嘅,係咪? 29 鄭芷盈女士:係,冇錯。 30 杜淦堃資深大律師:嗰個光井位我相信喺維修之前間唔中,或多或少都會有垃圾嘅。 31 鄭芷盈女士:係。 32 杜淦堃資深大律師:因為啲人會抌垃圾落街嘅。 33 鄭芷盈女士:冇錯。 34 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,呢個唔應該,但係會發生㗎喇? 35 鄭芷盈女士:唔,係。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第八天

27 本謄本由Epiq 編製 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁你哋應該有清潔工係去清潔嗰個光井嘅,係咪? 1 鄭芷盈女士:係,係,冇錯。 2 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,即係你嘅理解都係咁? 3 鄭芷盈女士:係。 4 杜淦堃資深大律師:而個光井有個閘,有條鎖匙先入到嘅? 5 鄭芷盈女士:係。 6 杜淦堃資深大律師:所以平時就唔應該有人喺個光井嗰度嘅,除非嗰啲清潔工喺度清潔,可 7 唔可以咁講? 8 鄭芷盈女士:可以。 9 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係你個理解應該都係,因為有證據顯示大維修之後就唔係咁講,因為 10 啲工人入到去? 11 鄭芷盈女士:唔。 12 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢個你確認,係咪? 13 鄭芷盈女士:工人入到去,係。 14 杜淦堃資深大律師:因為我哋去--我哋同委員會去宏福苑,即係火災之後去睇,其實我哋睇 15 到用一啲竹棚搭嘅樓梯,係等啲人可以上嗰個光井嘅,你記得呢樣嘢嘛? 16 鄭芷盈女士:記得。 17 杜淦堃資深大律師:係。所以我想問下你就係,喺每棟大廈呢啲工人產生出嚟--產生咗新嘅 18 問題,因為嗰啲位本來就唔應該咁污糟嘅,但係因為大維修,似乎就堆積咗好多垃 19 圾? 20 鄭芷盈女士:係。 21 杜淦堃資深大律師:你哋有冇討論過呢個問題?你同你嘅同事。 22 鄭芷盈女士:我記得有,有--因為大維修期間,嗰個位置清潔工人已經上唔到去嗰個位做清 23 潔吖嘛,所以係宏業嘅工人係負責嗰度嘅清潔嘅,即係嗰個天井位嗰度嘅清潔。 24 杜淦堃資深大律師:所以--係,所以呢個就係因為嗰個大維修嘅關係,所以似乎清潔工人嘅 25 職責或者佢嘅範--即係要做嘅工作有少少改變? 26 鄭芷盈女士:係。 27 杜淦堃資深大律師:所以你哋係知道嘅? 28 鄭芷盈女士:係。 29 杜淦堃資深大律師:所以你哋應該會留意到嗰個光井位係咪--嗰個情況係唔係好理想嘅,有 30 時,係咪? 31 鄭芷盈女士:其實又唔係話特別多垃圾,因為平時都係會有,但係好似見到宏業嘅工人唔係 32 咁密去清囉。 33 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔。好,就吸煙嘅問題也好,呢啲垃圾堆積嘅問題也好,嗰個生口嘅問 34 題也好,雖然我明白即係未必係你個人嘅責任,但係你知道如果有消防風險嘅話, 35 我哋頭先睇過嘅文件裏面顯示到,似乎公司係有責任同政府部門去跟進個喎,我相 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第八天

28 本謄本由Epiq 編製 信你都同意,係咪? 1 鄭芷盈女士:唔。 2 杜淦堃資深大律師:所以如果有火警風險嘅話,可唔可以咁講?淨係靠宏業或者淨係靠有關 3 消防工程嘅承辦商去處理,就似乎同你哋跟法團嗰個合約上高嘅責任係呢個各有出 4 入嘅,你會唔會同意? 5 鄭芷盈女士:如果消防方面,我哋即係都係只可以委派合資格承辦商去做。 6 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係就火警風險而言,我咁講係咪公道?似乎--我哋當然係而家事後去 7 睇,但係似乎喺我畀你睇嘅文件上高,ISS 應該有個獨立嘅責任去確保冇問題嘅, 8 呢個我相信係你唔會爭議,係咪? 9 鄭芷盈女士:係。 10 杜淦堃資深大律師:我明白你可能覺得你唔係最適合回答呢啲問題嘅證人。 11 鄭芷盈女士:唔,唔。 12 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係我都希望你理解。 13 鄭芷盈女士:明白。 14 杜淦堃資深大律師:因為ISS 證人裏面,可能係你會係最適合嗰位,你答唔到嘅你可以同我 15 講,好唔好? 16 鄭芷盈女士:可以,明白。 17 杜淦堃資深大律師:對你公道一啲。另外我想同你探討培訓嘅問題,因為你嘅證人供詞第12 18 段,我留意到引述到你哋有啲文件叫做「置邦三寶」嘅,有幾份你哋大家置邦嘅同 19 事都熟悉嘅文件,係咪? 20 鄭芷盈女士:係。 21 杜淦堃資深大律師:其中一份就係保安工作指引嘅,咁我哋如果睇Bundle H1-3/6633 22 頁,你見到呢份文件? 23 鄭芷盈女士:係。 24 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋喺保安工作指引裏面,我哋知道其中要做嘅嘢,6640 吖睇。我睇 25 番第4 段,我提一提醒你,第4 段係咁講嘅,你要--「你哋有責任去檢查呢啲閘 26 門、防煙門、電錶房、泵房、機房有冇鎖好」。 27 鄭芷盈女士:係。 28 杜淦堃資深大律師:「如果有唔妥,就要作檢查之後上鎖嘅」? 29 鄭芷盈女士:冇錯。 30 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢個你哋係有指示前線嘅同事去做,係咪? 31 鄭芷盈女士:係,冇錯。 32 杜淦堃資深大律師:另外,如果我哋睇6641 嘅B2 條,B,四一,你見到B 項,「各類物 33 業大廈崗位嘅職責」,你見到? 34 鄭芷盈女士:唔。 35 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢度就咁講嘅,喺上高1 嗰度「住宅樓宇嘅崗位座頭」呢度講,「當值 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第八天

29 本謄本由Epiq 編製 嘅管理員必須擁有專業知識,並對所當值嘅樓宇詳加認識,例如幾多層,幾多戶, 1 留意佢哋嘅習慣」,跟住就列出咗一系列其他嘅事情,呢度第二項就講話佢哋要認 2 識消防設備、消防泵房、... 3 鄭芷盈女士:係。 4 杜淦堃資深大律師:...消防控制室等位置及走火通道嘅。 5 鄭芷盈女士:係。 6 杜淦堃資深大律師:我相信呢啲你哋嘅同事都會係熟悉嘅,係咪? 7 鄭芷盈女士:係。 8 杜淦堃資深大律師:有一個講法,就係似乎喺火災後,我哋見到有啲消防泵嘅--唔只個火警 9 警報系統關掉咗,而家大家都知,有啲泵房嘅嗰個門嗰個鎖都係冇上鎖嘅,如果根 10 據呢個工作指引,呢個係唔應該嘅,係咪? 11 鄭芷盈女士:冇錯。 12 杜淦堃資深大律師:另外,我哋見到同一個工作指引A2 段,之前嗰頁,6639,我哋去。之 13 前,唔係,sorry,6639 至啱。我哋見到個講到巡邏嗰個目的,我哋頭先睇過, 14 其中一個巡邏嘅目的係要睇下有冇火警嘅危險? 15 鄭芷盈女士:係。 16 杜淦堃資深大律師:喺同一頁落啲,C5,亦都有提到要注意嘅地方,你會見到就係有特別留 17 意,下一頁,或者睇一睇。係,「搭有維修棚架嘅位置」,喺--呢個就對宏福苑當 18 時做工程係一個特別重要嘅項目,因為我哋知道其實八座都畀啲棚架圍晒,咁相信 19 大家都有特別留意呢一樣嘢,係咪? 20 鄭芷盈女士:係。 21 杜淦堃資深大律師:我都想提番你啫,如果我哋睇D1,亦都有講到係咁嘅,其實巡邏係,除 22 非有特別嘅指示,唔應該改變,去某個地方嘅時候要敏感咁進行,個目的其實係保 23 護業戶,防止財產損失同破壞,防止罪案同埋避免火警、水浸等意外發生嘅。我想 24 提番你有呢啲嘅責任,先去問你有關嘅問題。 25 鄭芷盈女士:唔。 26 杜淦堃資深大律師:我而家探討過一啲嘅題目,譬如嗰個生口、消防裝置等問題,其實如果 27 睇番呢啲你哋內部嘅守則,其實所有同事應該都會留意到呢啲嘅風險嘅,係咪? 28 鄭芷盈女士:係。 29 杜淦堃資深大律師:而有關你哋畀員工嘅培訓,我留意到你嘅供詞53 段有咁講,我哋睇 30 番。你都--呢樣嘢喺聆訊講過好多次,即係基本上係你都知道要係註冊嘅消防承辦 31 商至可以去安裝、保養同埋去檢查,同埋維修嗰啲消防裝置,呢樣嘢公司畀你哋嘅 32 培訓裏面係有同你哋去講,係咪? 33 鄭芷盈女士:冇錯。 34 杜淦堃資深大律師:而呢一個話畀你知呢一樣嘢,相信你係入咗職之後,公司畀你嘅培訓你 35 先知,你本來唔知嘅,係咪? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第八天

30 本謄本由Epiq 編製 鄭芷盈女士:係。 1 杜淦堃資深大律師:係咪每一個前線員工都知道呢樣嘢?就你嘅認知,係,你嘅同事。 2 鄭芷盈女士:我嘅同事,我認知佢哋都會知道呢一個情況嘅。 3 杜淦堃資深大律師:好,我想你幫幫我另外一樣嘢嘅,我哋琴日都探討過呢個問題,管理處 4 有本借匙簿嘅,借鎖匙要有紀錄嘅。 5 鄭芷盈女士:係,冇錯。 6 杜淦堃資深大律師:如果入泵房或者--消防泵房或者主泵房,其實要問座頭姐姐嘅,係咪? 7 鄭芷盈女士:係,係。 8 杜淦堃資深大律師:管理處有冇指引話,其實就每一個借匙嘅人都係要做番個書面嘅紀錄? 9 鄭芷盈女士:需要,因為即係每一次借匙咪做番個紀錄囉。 10 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢個一路係有遵守㗎嘛,係咪? 11 鄭芷盈女士:係。 12 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁我想問下你,每座大廈都有嗰本簿嘅,係咪? 13 鄭芷盈女士:係,冇錯。 14 杜淦堃資深大律師:似乎有啲情況我哋知道喺呢個case 嗰度,就係因為做維修嘅,你哋宏 15 業嘅同事--置邦,置邦嘅同事係負責工程嗰兩位,羅師傅同李師傅,佢哋自己有條 16 匙都可以開到嘅? 17 鄭芷盈女士:呢個係我之後,即係事發之後先知佢哋自己有一條匙。 18 杜淦堃資深大律師:而似乎個做法就係,如果佢哋帶啲外判商去開,就唔會有--喺個借匙簿 19 度有紀錄,係咪咁? 20 鄭芷盈女士:有可能。 21 杜淦堃資深大律師:另外一個你哋內部嘅措施,似乎就係如果有承辦商嚟做嘢,應該都要有 22 一個書面嘅紀錄,係咪? 23 鄭芷盈女士:係,所有承辦商嚟做嘢,即係可能保養或者維修都好,佢哋要去管理處嗰度做 24 一個登記嘅。 25 杜淦堃資深大律師:你有一本--另外有一本叫做承辦商嘅出勤紀錄嘅,另外一本簿,係咪? 26 鄭芷盈女士:係。 27 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,如果我哋睇C2/1687 頁。你見過呢本簿,係咪? 28 鄭芷盈女士:係。 29 杜淦堃資深大律師:如果我哋睇下一頁,我哋就見到有一啲嘅紀錄做咗嘅,似乎除咗做紀錄 30 之外,如果跟番啲規矩,係應該要發一個臨時工作許可證畀佢哋嘅,你記唔記得呢 31 一樣嘢? 32 鄭芷盈女士:記得。 33 杜淦堃資深大律師:如果我哋睇1701 頁,你見到右上角臨時工作許可證嘅確認紀錄? 34 鄭芷盈女士:係。 35 杜淦堃資深大律師:事實上有冇做㗎,呢樣嘢?係咪好多時都冇做? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第八天

31 本謄本由Epiq 編製 鄭芷盈女士:我見到佢哋即係如果經常嚟做保養嗰啲,有填呢個表格,但係可能未必有嗰張 1 證。 2 杜淦堃資深大律師:會唔會--我哋有--譬如我哋喺本簿度會見到有啲紀錄嘅,1701 呢個, 3 你見到嗰間公司係嚟做--個公司名寫住(English Spoken)嘅。 4 鄭芷盈女士:係。 5 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢度有間--應該就係我哋翻查番紀錄,係有間叫湯臣工程有限公司,係 6 呢個係做水泵例檢嗰個承辦商嚟嘅,係咪? 7 鄭芷盈女士:唔。 8 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔。亦都你睇番呢份文件裏面,會講咗話佢哋做嘅工程會唔會影響到火 9 警警報系統嘅,(b),你睇唔睇到?9(b)。 10 鄭芷盈女士:係。 11 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋睇過大廈嘅借匙簿,咁就搵唔到湯臣嘅技術人員嚟過借匙嘅。我都 12 唔--我哋知道所有泵房都應該上咗鎖嘅。 13 鄭芷盈女士:係。 14 杜淦堃資深大律師:所以嗰個情況就係好可能有同事帶咗佢哋去,就冇喺管理處度借鎖匙, 15 事實上係咪咁? 16 鄭芷盈女士:有可能,因為我哋即係呢啲保養承辦商嚟做嘢,就會通知即係工程主任嘅, 17 係。 18 杜淦堃資深大律師:另外我哋都有留意到個情況,就係根據李承富先生畀警方嘅口供,呢個 19 係你哋嘅同事。 20 鄭芷盈女士:唔。 21 杜淦堃資深大律師:佢話因為宏業啲工人冇鎖匙,佢都成日會幫佢哋開門嘅。如果所有--所 22 以見到--我哋見到你哋嘅員工,基本上如果--個做法就係「我知道嗰個係邊個,我 23 熟悉佢,佢係嚟做工程嘅」,似乎佢哋就會自己開門畀佢哋,自己帶佢去泵房? 24 鄭芷盈女士:唔。 25 杜淦堃資深大律師:而似乎如果自己帶佢哋去泵房嘅話,我哋見到個情況就係可能有啲因為 26 可能熟咗。 27 鄭芷盈女士:係。 28 杜淦堃資深大律師:「我哋都知道佢係邊個,成日嚟」,就未必會有個書面嘅紀錄話借咗鎖 29 匙,亦都未必有個紀錄就係話要填番張表,出番個證畀佢,係咪咁?因為呢個表, 30 我哋睇番右上角,因為呢個其實係出張證嘅確認嚟嘅。我同意就係可能都會喺啲外 31 判商嗰個出勤工作簿裏面有個紀錄,就話有外判商嚟過。 32 鄭芷盈女士:係。 33 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係冇簽過呢張form,出過工作證畀佢,亦都就會有衍生過咩嘢問 34 題,就可能冇個紀錄就記錄低嗰個火警警報系統係咪會受呢一個工作嘅影響,你同 35 唔同意? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第八天

32 本謄本由Epiq 編製 鄭芷盈女士:但係我見到佢哋嚟做登記都係有填呢一張form。 1 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係呢個form 一定會填嘅? 2 鄭芷盈女士:唔。 3 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係就冇出過證畀佢哋? 4 鄭芷盈女士:係,即係佢哋嚟到就填咗呢張form 先,跟住就再寫頭先承辦商嗰個登記簿。 5 杜淦堃資深大律師:你睇下右下角,我哋見到其實係呢個管理處要𢲩印同埋確認,呢個係咪 6 你去做? 7 鄭芷盈女士:唔係。 8 杜淦堃資深大律師:邊個做㗎? 9 鄭芷盈女士:控制室同事。 10 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁換句話講,譬如我哋呢一次咁,我哋知道我哋之前嗰兩日探討過嘅證 11 據就係,有宏業嘅工人話要放水缸嘅水,所以先至導致羅師傅同李師傅帶咗佢哋去 12 個泵房嗰度,亦都即係好不幸,佢亦都喺唔清楚嘅情況之下就關掉咗嗰個系統。 13 鄭芷盈女士:係。 14 杜淦堃資深大律師:如果跟足程序去做,其實應該就會有一張咁嘅表格去記錄低佢哋去放 15 水,出個工作證,而會剔番呢個會唔會影響嗰個火警警報系統,係咪? 16 鄭芷盈女士:因為宏業嘅工人,佢哋都冇特別係做呢個登記,因為佢哋有駐場嘅辦公室,咁 17 佢哋都係全部有着上佢哋嘅制服,係,咁以我所知就冇特別去做呢一個登記。 18 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想其實係問下,即係你哋現有嘅程序,其實係--即係我唔係對你個人 19 嘅指控嚟嘅。 20 鄭芷盈女士:係。 21 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想睇下現有嘅程序其實係咪確保到有一個紀錄,而嗰啲紀錄係可以準 22 確咁顯示到有冇--有關嘅工作會唔會影響到嗰個火警警報系統或者消防措施。而我 23 聽你啱啱咁講,就係因為佢哋係宏業嘅工人,佢都着住平時佢哋嗰啲制服,所以其 24 實就應該唔使搞呢啲文件嘅? 25 鄭芷盈女士:係。 26 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,所以就入咗去做咗啲工序,就會影響到個系統都冇經過有關嘅流程 27 去記錄低,可唔可以咁講? 28 鄭芷盈女士:係。 29 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁我想問下你,你自己最早係幾時知道嗰個火--消防警鐘嗰個係畀人熄 30 咗? 31 鄭芷盈女士:事發之後。 32 杜淦堃資深大律師:係大火當日,應該就係你叫管理員去試下打破嗰個扲手個玻璃,去啟動 33 個火警警鐘,但係就唔著,嗰陣你先知㗎嘛,係咪? 34 鄭芷盈女士:係,因為我記得當日去咗宏昌閣嗰度,有同--即係同鍾女士,叫佢去做即係打 35 嗰個扲手,試下睇下個警鐘響唔響。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第八天

33 本謄本由Epiq 編製 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想即係同你講清楚先,即係我知道你哋當時係有好努力咁樣去話畀居 1 民知有火警。 2 鄭芷盈女士:係。 3 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係我唔想大家誤會我以下嘅問題,因為大家都唔想,同埋你都喺嗰度 4 返咗好耐工,所以我相信其實你同啲街坊都好熟。 5 鄭芷盈女士:唔。 6 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想問你嘅就係,當日你知道打破個玻璃唔著,你就叫林生問番個承辦 7 商點解唔著,係咪? 8 鄭芷盈女士:係,冇錯。 9 杜淦堃資深大律師:你嘅證人供詞亦都講過,因為你哋冇紀錄話嗰個系統幾時關閉,亦都冇 10 紀錄話有人投訴,你當時其實係唔知道發生咗咩嘢問題,係咪? 11 鄭芷盈女士:係。 12 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想就呢方面,想你幫一幫我哋睇一睇頭先許大律師同你睇嗰啲 13 WhatsApp,因為嗰度記錄低你同鍾先生嘅一啲對話,我哋用番你提供嗰個版本, 14 喺H4 嗰度,6800 開始,呢個係你哋攞出嚟嘅紀錄,呢個就係你同宏泰消防鍾先生 15 喺10 月初開始嘅對--嘅一啲通話同埋訊息嘅紀錄嚟嘅,見到。首先我想講嘅就 16 係,你一路都有佢嘅聯絡嘅,因為你係其中一個會同佢去跟進消防系統安排嘅其中 17 一個員工,係咪? 18 鄭芷盈女士:係。 19 杜淦堃資深大律師:除咗你之外,仲有邊個會聯絡佢? 20 鄭芷盈女士:林生。 21 杜淦堃資深大律師:黎生,係咪? 22 鄭芷盈女士:林生同埋... 23 杜淦堃資深大律師:林生。 24 鄭芷盈女士:...黎生都有機會。 25 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係你三位同佢都有溝通嘅應該? 26 鄭芷盈女士:係。 27 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔。我哋見到10 月初嘅時候,你就同佢講話,要安排消防呢個執修 28 過,跟住就安排做維修,跟住然之後一路講番會簽番個文件畀大家,咁佢就話要訂 29 料,我哋一路睇落去,四至六個星期,呢個係10 月3 號你哋嘅對話。 30 鄭芷盈女士:係。 31 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁你就有催佢個喎嘗試,「有冇啲可以開始做住先?」佢話「都有,10 32 月中做啲先,要訂燈」,咁你有催過佢,睇下可唔可以安排快啲做住先,佢就話盡 33 力嘅,一路。 34 鄭芷盈女士:唔。 35 杜淦堃資深大律師:係咪?呢個你同佢討論緊嘅係嗰個維修嘅情況,係咪? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第八天

34 本謄本由Epiq 編製 鄭芷盈女士:即係安排年檢之後嗰個執修。 1 杜淦堃資深大律師:因為似乎有啲嘢需要整,所以你就追佢,叫佢快啲整,係咪? 2 鄭芷盈女士:係,冇錯。 3 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁我哋見到你一路去講,咁你頭先同許大律師,我哋而家一路咁去睇, 4 咁你都講咗關於14 號一啲嘅文件嘅交往,跟住22 號我哋見到許大律師今朝問過你 5 消防處畀你哋嗰個信,你就send 番畀佢話「今日收到」,到28 號你都係追佢 6 「幾時再嚟做執修?」 7 鄭芷盈女士:係。 8 杜淦堃資深大律師:你頭先講過17 號嘅情況,講過一個對話嘅。 9 鄭芷盈女士:唔。 10 杜淦堃資深大律師:我記得你第一個答案,許大律師問你關於嗰個SDN 嘅問題。 11 鄭芷盈女士:係。 12 杜淦堃資深大律師:我留意到你嘅答案,你--佢--許大律師問過你,就係當時有冇問過你攞 13 呢份文件,你係話唔記得嘅,你記唔到嘅。證人好多時就記唔到或者答唔到有兩個 14 原因,我想對你公道啲,等你講清楚。你嘅意思係,你肯定佢從來冇問過你,定係 15 「我唔記得嘞真係」?你明唔明白個分別? 16 鄭芷盈女士:明白。 17 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,唔係對你有啲咩嘢指控,但係呢一個我相信你要解釋番個情況係 18 點? 19 鄭芷盈女士:頭先許大律師問我,應該係就住10 月17 號嗰個通話,咁嗰個通話我真係冇印 20 象記得嗰個內容係講咗啲咩嘢嘅。係,咁我印象中就即係都係記番都係應該係事發 21 之後鍾生先有問我攞嗰個SDN。 22 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,即係其實人,即係我可以同你講,即係我哋嘅記憶可能受好多事情 23 嘅影響,亦都未必好準確。 24 鄭芷盈女士:係。 25 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係而家你嘅講法,基本上你講唔到佢有冇問過你嘅,似乎係咁樣,係 26 咪? 27 鄭芷盈女士:係。 28 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢個希望你明白,唔係一個對你嘅批評嚟,但係之後喺維修--去到10 29 月21 號嘅時候,你就話--講到有個miss call,呢個就冇講過嘞到時,係咪? 30 鄭芷盈女士:係。 31 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想你協助我嘅係,我哋見到喺火警前大約一星期。 32 鄭芷盈女士:唔。 33 杜淦堃資深大律師:11 月19 號喥,佢係--佢哋--李先生,宏泰嘅,係嚟整嗰個扲手嘅, 34 即係當時你催佢哋,所以佢哋--催咗一輪,佢哋就嚟咗整,可唔可以咁講? 35 鄭芷盈女士:唔,係。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第八天

35 本謄本由Epiq 編製 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔。我哋知道佢哋嘅工程係影響咗嗰個火警警報系統,或者佢哋嘅工程 1 係同個火警警報系統有關,因為個電源嘅問題。 2 鄭芷盈女士:唔。 3 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁另外一樣,證人探討過嘅問題就係因為佢哋做嘅工程亦都同個水缸有 4 關,係咪? 5 鄭芷盈女士:唔。 6 杜淦堃資深大律師:所以個水缸有冇水同放咗水,呢個都係曾經討論過嘅問題,係咪? 7 鄭芷盈女士:你意思係同邊位討論過? 8 杜淦堃資深大律師:同鍾先生。 9 鄭芷盈女士:鍾先生。我記得我有--佢有問過我個水缸有冇入番水,係。 10 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,你睇番呢頁,6804 頁,落少少嗰度,佢有講過... 11 鄭芷盈女士:係。 12 杜淦堃資深大律師:你問佢「幾時安排嚟做執修」,佢就話「我尋日先追啲燈,好鬼死慢, 13 同埋入番水未?冇水都完唔到工」,你記得你講過呢樣嘢嘅?同佢討論過? 14 鄭芷盈女士:係,喺WhatsApp 度係佢有問過我。 15 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁你似乎-- 我睇番之後嗰頁,你就話「係咪欠啲燈就做晒?」佢話 16 「係,有少少濕星嘢」。跟住我就見到你咁講,10 月28 號,「已經入番水」喎。 17 鄭芷盈女士:唔。 18 杜淦堃資深大律師:你嘅理解係咪10 月28 號嗰一日,嗰啲水缸入番水,消防水缸? 19 鄭芷盈女士:我知道個水缸即係有水喺入面。 20 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔,你點知? 21 鄭芷盈女士:其實我都係問番同事拎相見到嘅。 22 杜淦堃資深大律師:因為我哋個理解就係個水缸放咗水嘅,而暫時似乎嘅證據係冇話有人去 23 入番水落啲水缸嗰度,所以我想問清楚你點解會咁? 24 鄭芷盈女士:我係純粹因為即係鍾生問我即係「入番水未」,咁我就有問番同事,「宏業嗰 25 邊有冇啲相話個水缸係有入番水㗎?可唔可以畀我?」咁樣。 26 杜淦堃資深大律師:你可唔可以話畀我知,邊個同事話畀你知入番水?你會問邊個,呢樣 27 嘢?或者。 28 鄭芷盈女士:我淨係記得我係問駱小姐攞相嘅,即係啲相係佢畀我嘅,駱小姐畀我嘅,啲 29 相。 30 杜淦堃資深大律師:你指嘅相係咪6807 嗰啲相? 31 鄭芷盈女士:即係我之後應該WhatsApp 入面send 畀鍾生嗰啲相。 32 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋頭先睇過嘅,6807 頁,呢個駱小姐畀你㗎,啲相? 33 鄭芷盈女士:係,我記憶中係。 34 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔。嗰啲--點解我想你睇呢一度,唔係睇鍾先生畀嗰份,我哋喺你畀嘅 35 WhatsApp 裏面先睇到嘅,我哋見到嗰啲相有好多係8 月同埋9 月影嘅。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第八天

36 本謄本由Epiq 編製 鄭芷盈女士:唔。 1 杜淦堃資深大律師:你見唔見到? 2 鄭芷盈女士:見到。 3 杜淦堃資深大律師:8 月30 日九點半,呢個係(English Spoken)宏新。跟住右下角嗰 4 度,我哋見到9 月29 號消防缸,呢個係宏道,「道」字,你見到左面。 5 鄭芷盈女士:「道」,係。 6 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔。證據顯示就係,似乎我哋而家知道,其實嗰啲消防缸放晒水個喎。 7 鄭芷盈女士:唔。 8 杜淦堃資深大律師:而你嘅意思就係,你嘅理解證人同你講,其實都已經填--已經做完晒, 9 入番水,係咪? 10 鄭芷盈女士:我記得佢哋話要入番水,要養水,係嘞。 11 杜淦堃資深大律師:因為呢個我想你幫助我哋嘅,就係因為似乎呢個唔係11 月嘅時候嘅狀 12 況,似乎係駱小姐畀你嘅相係早啲,較早時嘅情況,你嘅意思係基於呢啲相,似乎 13 就可以做番餘下嘅工程,就可以簽番畀消防,我哋見到你咁講,所以你嘅理解係咪 14 就係話「都入番水囉,咪搞掂埋佢就可以畀消防通過番囉」,係咪? 15 鄭芷盈女士:其實唔係,但係我--佢因為鍾生問我入番水未,咁我就知道個消防缸有入咗 16 水,咁我就其實係想畀啲相去問佢,即係咁樣係咪已經okay 定係還是有其他嘢, 17 因為如果需要有其他嘢,佢應該會再進一步問我拎嘅。 18 杜淦堃資深大律師:所以你應該係幫唔到我哋去解釋,點解當時似乎大家都話放咗水,但係 19 有啲相就係啲缸係滿嘅? 20 鄭芷盈女士:我呢個就真係唔清楚,真係。 21 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想問一問你,因為呢啲相我哋都係啱啱先收到呢個紀錄,你呢個電話 22 仲有喺度個呵? 23 鄭芷盈女士:喺度。 24 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢啲相,而我哋就咁睇到呢度有十二張,我相信你都可以畀許大律師佢 25 哋。 26 鄭芷盈女士:可以。 27 杜淦堃資深大律師:可以交番畀我哋,等我哋睇清楚當時嘅情況? 28 鄭芷盈女士:可以。 29 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔好意思,因為我哋都係琴日先至收到。 30 鄭芷盈女士:唔,唔緊要,唔緊要,唔。 31 杜淦堃資深大律師:所以我唔係話你有心唔畀我哋。我哋見到你同埋鍾先生之後嘅對話,佢 32 似乎就發番份文件畀你,指住其中一項嘅,你見唔見到? 33 鄭芷盈女士:唔。 34 杜淦堃資深大律師:「維修消防上水泵連加嘅油調校」,你知唔知佢咩嘢意思?發咗之後-- 35 同埋發咗張相畀你之後? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第八天

37 本謄本由Epiq 編製 鄭芷盈女士:呢個應該就係我問佢宏新閣嗰個消防泵換咗未,因為嗰日即係...(聽不清) 1 搵佢,就係有消防處打嚟問過,咁我就問番佢咁樣,咁佢所以就發番呢一頁畀我, 2 跟住下面應該仲有張相,佢就話即係「整好咗嘞」咁樣。 3 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔。我或者好簡單咁問你,宏泰嘅證人佢曾經有提過話之後都同管理處 4 有位鄭小姐通過電話,就查詢嗰個消防系統暫停同埋掛咗牌嘅,你有冇印象? 5 鄭芷盈女士:係邊位先生? 6 杜淦堃資深大律師:李俊--呢個我哋要睇一睇佢嘅(English Spoken )--李俊賢,喺 7 WS2/1538 頁。你睇之前嗰頁,李俊賢,下一頁,第5 段,你睇一睇第5 段。 8 鄭芷盈女士:係。 9 杜淦堃資深大律師:裏面提到佢同管理處鄭小姐,跟住有個9810 嘅電話,呢個係你電話, 10 係咪? 11 鄭芷盈女士:係。 12 杜淦堃資深大律師:你對呢個對話有冇印象? 13 鄭芷盈女士:冇印象。 14 杜淦堃資深大律師:另外一位證人黃健華先生,如果我哋睇1547 頁會見到佢第6 段,佢都 15 有提到,我哋見到呢一度,佢話佢喺11 月19 號亦都同你有過一個對話,你有冇印 16 象? 17 鄭芷盈女士:黃先生呢個有印象。 18 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢個有印象? 19 鄭芷盈女士:唔。 20 杜淦堃資深大律師:許大律師有問過佢關於同你嘅對話嘅,就係佢話喺11 月19 號,佢話其 21 實黃生冇同你講過,話要求提供有關掛牌嘅文件,咁黃先生係唔同意嘅。以上嘅講 22 法,無論如何,我想問下你,第一,我相信你--許大律師咁問得佢,你應該都係唔 23 同意佢有問過你? 24 鄭芷盈女士:唔同意黃生有問過我,係。 25 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係我可唔可以咁講?你知道消防系統有人掛咗牌,係咪? 26 鄭芷盈女士:知道。 27 杜淦堃資深大律師:Victory Fire 係你哋嘅註冊承辦商嚟嘅,處理嗰個消防系統,係 28 咪? 29 鄭芷盈女士:係。 30 杜淦堃資深大律師:雖然佢唔係就大維修工程所牽涉嘅消防系統嗰個承辦商,但係你知道係 31 有第二間公司掛咗牌嘅? 32 鄭芷盈女士:係。 33 杜淦堃資深大律師:基於其實Victory Fire (宏泰)係平時幫你哋做消防工程嘅承辦 34 商,如果有掛咗牌,有張SDN,點解你唔畀--你哋唔畀佢哋呢?你哋唔係應該主動 35 話畀佢知,即係有啲協調話畀佢知「喂,係呀,大維修停咗,呢份文件同你哋工作 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第八天

38 本謄本由Epiq 編製 有關。」冇人咁去做,係咪? 1 鄭芷盈女士:冇醒起要畀佢。 2 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係佢應該係你哋最需要畀嗰個嚟嘅,你同唔同意? 3 鄭芷盈女士:同意。 4 杜淦堃資深大律師:因為佢負責,佢有長期--即係成年都係佢做,佢都要定期嚟,係咪? 5 鄭芷盈女士:唔。 6 杜淦堃資深大律師:我相信你其實--可唔可以咁講呢?當然,我哋都係事後睇番,我都明白 7 你有上司同埋下屬,但係似乎喺處理消防系統呢方面,你哋係冇討論過,第一,有 8 多過一個承辦商會處理呢個消防系統嘅,亦都佢哋中間點樣協調,邊個熄咗要話畀- 9 -一個熄咗要話畀另一個知,呢啲冇人考慮過當時,係咪? 10 鄭芷盈女士:係。 11 杜淦堃資深大律師:接住落嚟我想其實問一問你火警當日嘅事。 12 鄭芷盈女士:唔。 13 杜淦堃資深大律師:你係大約喺2 點50 分知道有火警嘅,係咪?座頭鍾女士同你講嘅,係 14 咪? 15 鄭芷盈女士:佢喺個對講機度嗌出嚟嘅。 16 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋知道--頭先都講咗,你叫咗佢試下啟動個火警警報系統,冇聲,跟 17 住你就同咗林文欣講,叫佢去問一問點解同埋去處理呢件事,係咪? 18 鄭芷盈女士:係。 19 杜淦堃資深大律師:跟住我哋知道佢其實走咗去宏仁、宏道同宏新嘗試啟動番個系統嘅,呢 20 個當時你知唔知? 21 鄭芷盈女士:當時佢之後有同番我講。 22 杜淦堃資深大律師:你證人供詞提過,管理處嘅職員亦都喺啲公用地方試下用個擴音器叫啲 23 人走嘅? 24 鄭芷盈女士:係。 25 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係呢個我相信唔係好有效,因為你哋其實宏福苑三十幾層高,你嗰個 26 擴音器應該唔會去到好高層? 27 鄭芷盈女士:係,冇錯。 28 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係當時就冇辦法,就係諗到呢個辦法,係咪? 29 鄭芷盈女士:係。 30 杜淦堃資深大律師:我知道喺火警發生嘅時候,去到警察叫你疏散,你中間一路都喺度嘗試 31 係提醒啲居民有火警嘅,係咪? 32 鄭芷盈女士:係,冇錯。 33 杜淦堃資深大律師:你去到4 點10 分嘅時候先至撤離嘅,係咪? 34 鄭芷盈女士:大概係咁上下時間。 35 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋睇到你嗰日之後,其實同Victory Fire 嘅鍾先生都有講過電話 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第八天

39 本謄本由Epiq 編製 嘅,係咪? 1 鄭芷盈女士:係。 2 杜淦堃資深大律師:你記唔記得當日六點幾同佢講過電話嘅內容? 3 鄭芷盈女士:我記得佢好似同我講話有個同事過緊嚟,係嘞,跟住好似都有問我即係掛牌嗰 4 啲嘢咁樣嘅。 5 杜淦堃資深大律師:鍾先生佢嘅證人供詞咁講嘅,佢話佢就問你其實宏業嘅註冊消防承辦商 6 有冇掛牌,要求你畀一份嗰份SDN 佢,之後你喺28 號就發咗畀佢,個情況係唔係 7 咁? 8 鄭芷盈女士:記憶中好似係。 9 杜淦堃資深大律師:嗰次應該係你第一次發個SDN 畀佢? 10 鄭芷盈女士:係。 11 杜淦堃資深大律師:我都想你幫一幫我哋去另一個題目,有位黃志德先生,似乎佢曾經係做 12 過你哋置邦嘅樓宇主管。 13 鄭芷盈女士:係。 14 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋印象就話佢走得唔係幾開心嘅? 15 鄭芷盈女士:你哋係唔係喺報道睇到? 16 杜淦堃資深大律師:我係喺佢似乎個證供嗰度佢對你哋都係好不滿嘅,因為佢畀警方嘅證 17 供。 18 鄭芷盈女士:係。 19 杜淦堃資深大律師:你有冇見過佢畀警察嘅證供,喺火災之後? 20 鄭芷盈女士:有。 21 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋或者睇一睇,IE1/468 頁。 22 陸啟康法官:I? 23 杜淦堃資深大律師:IE1。 24 陸啟康法官:IE1。 25 杜淦堃資深大律師:我可以同你講,即係公道咁講,即係佢似乎對你哋公司喺宏福苑處理一 26 啲問題嘅手法好不滿,我想畀個機會你睇一睇,協助我哋。唔係話佢講嘅嘢就一定 27 係當時發生嘅情況,因為有各種各樣嘅原因,你都嘗試去就佢呢啲嘅指控提出過一 28 啲講法。 29 鄭芷盈女士:係。 30 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想你睇第8 段,佢講話佢返咗工一個星期,巡邏嘅時候就發現現場環 31 境極度惡劣,啲建築材料就亂躉;有發泡膠同埋煙頭;一星期裏面佢自己收到兩宗 32 嘅投訴,喺公眾地方有人食煙;跟住佢自己都話見過有人喺走廊或者棚架食煙。對 33 於佢呢個講法,你會唔會覺得係唔準確定係其實同你嘅認知都係差唔多? 34 鄭芷盈女士:樓層同埋棚架我自己冇見過嘅,即係喺其他公眾範圍有見過啲工人有食煙。 35 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係你自己都有親眼見過啲工人食煙? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第八天

40 本謄本由Epiq 編製 鄭芷盈女士:唔。 1 杜淦堃資深大律師:佢見嗰次就唔係你見嗰次,係咪? 2 鄭芷盈女士:係,就唔係,即係啲位置可能唔一樣囉。 3 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁有大量嘅類似投訴,呢個我相信你唔會爭議,係咪? 4 鄭芷盈女士:知道有,係嘞,就工人吸煙有投訴。 5 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋睇番第5 段,我想你協助我哋,因為我哋見到佢呢度提到,如果係 6 講番,佢話佢座位前面大約距離佢60cm 有個銀色嘅消防警報裝置,佢話佢工作慣 7 例,佢新到一個工地會睇下佢嘅運件,就發現嗰個消防警報裝置冇燈,掛上一塊紙 8 皮,紙皮上就寫住「掛牌」。呢個其實佢係講緊似乎喺管理處嘅一個箱嚟嘅,係 9 咪? 10 鄭芷盈女士:如果佢形容佢坐緊嘅位置,係喇,控制室都係。 11 杜淦堃資深大律師:控制室裏面,即係有個消防(English Spoken),我哋叫做有個裝 12 置嘅,係咪? 13 鄭芷盈女士:冇,冇呢個消防裝置。 14 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係你嘅意思係佢講呢個講法係唔正確嘅,因為據你所知,就係冇呢嚿 15 嘢喺office 度嘅? 16 鄭芷盈女士:係,冇錯。 17 杜淦堃資深大律師:Okay,呢個係你嘅。第10 段去,佢--佢講法有少少都講得比較狠,如 18 果我咁講,佢就話個環境就見到好多問題,個環境差,佢擔心個工作環境會危害到 19 佢生命,佢話向上司反映冇獲得正視。有幾差會唔會危害佢嘅生命呢個我哋即係幫 20 唔到佢,即係我相信你都冇辦法去答到我哋。 21 鄭芷盈女士:唔。 22 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係有向上司反映過呢個問題,你會唔會同意? 23 鄭芷盈女士:佢意思係唔係反映過危害佢生命嘅問題定係? 24 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔係,反映過宏福苑當時嗰個環境係比較差,佢喺呢個證人供證裏面都 25 提過,譬如嗰啲吸煙,工作環境有問題,呢啲佢有冇同上司投訴過呢方面,你幫唔 26 幫到我哋? 27 鄭芷盈女士:我自己就冇收過佢有咁嘅反映。 28 杜淦堃資深大律師:邊個係佢上司? 29 鄭芷盈女士:我係佢其中一個上司,跟住黎經理都會係。當時--睇下先,佢25 年嘅時候, 30 仲有一位助理物業主任姓鄒嘅,咁但係其實我哋睇番佢就住呢個事件喺其他傳媒都 31 有一啲報道,咁我哋都有問番鄒小姐,當時黃生有冇同佢反映過類似咁嘅問題,佢 32 都係話冇嘅。 33 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白。我跟住落嚟會問你一啲關於法團開會你哋參與嘅事情。 34 鄭芷盈女士:唔,係。 35 杜淦堃資深大律師:我去呢個大題目之前,我想同你澄清兩樣嘢,因為我哋陣間想攞番你一 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第八天

41 本謄本由Epiq 編製 啲嘅相同一啲嘅對話。 1 鄭芷盈女士:係。 2 杜淦堃資深大律師:駱小姐send 過十二張相畀你,佢係直接send 畀你定係你同佢同其他 3 同事都有啲WhatsApp 嘅群組係會發放呢啲相嘅? 4 鄭芷盈女士:唔記得佢係透過邊度send 畀我,因為我哋管理處同事都係有一個群組嘅。 5 杜淦堃資深大律師:嗰個管理處同事嘅群組裏面,應該都有--如果我想你睇一睇,其實應該 6 有可能會討論過消防工程嘅問題,係咪? 7 鄭芷盈女士:要睇番先知。 8 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁你嗰個同事嘅群組有邊幾位同事? 9 鄭芷盈女士:有黎經理、我、駱小姐同埋嗰個黃生。 10 杜淦堃資深大律師:嗰個? 11 鄭芷盈女士:助理。 12 杜淦堃資深大律師:黃偉光(譯音)先生? 13 鄭芷盈女士:係,黃偉光先生。 14 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係管理處嗰幾位同事? 15 鄭芷盈女士:係,係。 16 杜淦堃資深大律師:相信如果喺維修期間大家有呢啲相或者檔案要傳閱,可能會喺嗰個群組 17 裏面會有,係咪? 18 鄭芷盈女士:都有可能。 19 杜淦堃資深大律師:亦都就一啲人嘅投訴或者有處理嘅難題,喺嗰個群組裏面都可能有訊 20 息,係咪? 21 鄭芷盈女士:係。 22 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想你幫一幫我哋。陣間食晏嘅時候,第一,我想你睇一睇駱小姐係點 23 樣send 啲相畀你,係直接send 畀你,定喺個群組度。 24 鄭芷盈女士:好。 25 杜淦堃資深大律師:相關--同嗰啲相有關嘅通話,麻煩你都可以交番畀我哋,等我哋睇一睇 26 有冇問題需要問你。 27 鄭芷盈女士:好。 28 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁我哋而家似乎係有個問,就係我哋唔知道嗰個消防系統停咗咁耐,相 29 關嘅原因、背後一啲嘅細節,似乎同我哋嘅認知係有少少衝突嘅,即係基於你琴日 30 畀我哋嘅文件,好唔好? 31 鄭芷盈女士:唔,好。 32 杜淦堃資深大律師:我諗食晏我哋去處理咗呢個問題。 33 鄭芷盈女士:好。 34 杜淦堃資深大律師:我唔想浪費時間,我直接問咗,主席,TOR2 嘅問題先所以。 35 陸啟康法官:TOR1 你會唔會再問佢關於嗰個落單呢樣嘢,工作單呢樣嘢? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第八天

42 本謄本由Epiq 編製 杜淦堃資深大律師:工作單呢一樣嘢我冇打算問佢嘅本嚟係。如果主席有問題,或者就呢方 1 面如果委員會有興趣,我哋會整理一下,我哋會繼續問佢,因為似乎係其他同事處 2 理,我哋嘅理解係。或者我問一問佢,睇下佢知唔知先。 3 我哋睇過--委員會聆訊度處理過一啲job order,就係叫啲工程部嘅同事去 4 做一啲工程嘅,呢個你有冇處理?係唔係你做? 5 鄭芷盈女士:唔係我做,但我知道佢哋有呢張工作單。 6 杜淦堃資深大律師:係黎小姐--我哋知道駱小姐有出單,仲有邊個?據你嘅認知。 7 鄭芷盈女士:控制室嘅同事都有可能,因為佢哋如果有時可能接到住客嘅投訴,譬如可能有 8 啲樓層光管壞,或者可能垃圾房門鎖壞咗,咁佢哋都會開呢一個工作單嘅。 9 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁開咗個工作單出嚟,似乎就係畀直接畀在場嗰兩位師傅嘅,即係羅師 10 傅同李師傅去做嘅,係咪? 11 鄭芷盈女士:係,冇錯。 12 杜淦堃資深大律師:林文欣先生琴日就同我哋講咗,就話其實佢可能唔知道啲工作單係出 13 咗,做咗佢都唔知嘅,係可能出問題先問佢,係咪? 14 鄭芷盈女士:佢咁講法,係呀。 15 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想問下你就我哋而家呢單案處理有關嘅工作單,即係宏業話要放水, 16 啲水缸要放水,呢個係邊個同邊個溝通你知唔知? 17 鄭芷盈女士:我係事後先有睇過嗰張工作單。 18 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係呢一個要求係會喺管理處裏面同邊個講?如果宏業有咁嘅要求。 19 鄭芷盈女士:如果宏業有咁嘅要求? 20 杜淦堃資深大律師:似乎唔係你?聽你咁講。 21 鄭芷盈女士:唔係我。 22 許偉強資深大律師:咁你知唔知邊個? 23 鄭芷盈女士:我唔知邊個。 24 杜淦堃資深大律師:喺你嘅認知裏面,同宏業工程上高有一啲嘅交往,譬如佢有啲咁嘅要 25 求,應該係問邊個? 26 鄭芷盈女士:黎經理或者駱小姐。 27 杜淦堃資深大律師:或者駱小姐? 28 鄭芷盈女士:唔。 29 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁係唔係正常就問邊個,就邊個出嗰張工作單? 30 鄭芷盈女士:正常係。 31 杜淦堃資深大律師:因為你喺呢度比較--喺宏福苑比較耐,同埋你嘅工作範疇其實都好廣, 32 所以我都想你協助一下我哋關於委任鴻毅嗰個過程。 33 鄭芷盈女士:係。 34 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁你哋公司作為一間物業管理公司,似乎我哋睇番有關規定,我唔知道 35 你熟唔熟悉。但係你知道有物業管理監管局有一啲規定嘅,你認唔認--了解呢樣 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第八天

43 本謄本由Epiq 編製 嘢? 1 鄭芷盈女士:了解。 2 杜淦堃資深大律師:我可以畀有關嘅規定你睇,但係有一啲叫做《操守守則》嘅,你會唔會 3 睇過? 4 鄭芷盈女士:會唔會可以睇下?我想。 5 杜淦堃資深大律師:可以,如果你睇G1-1/446 頁,呢個係有關嘅條款。我哋睇番--呢個 6 其中一個我哋搵到嘅文件,由...(聽不清)披露,呢個其實係同做一啲嘅招標同 7 埋防止啲人圍標嘅守則嚟嘅。 8 鄭芷盈女士:唔。 9 杜淦堃資深大律師:公司有冇同你哋前線員工去講解呢啲守則或者畀你哋睇? 10 鄭芷盈女士:唔係太有印象。 11 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁如果你冇睇過,可以即係嘗試幫一幫你。 12 鄭芷盈女士:唔。 13 杜淦堃資深大律師:因為有一啲範疇可能你答到,可能你答唔到。作為一間物業管理公司, 14 其實你哋係應該有責任用有競爭性同埋公平嘅程式去進行一啲招標去委任承辦商 15 嘅,嗰個大原則我相信你明嘅? 16 鄭芷盈女士:係,係。 17 杜淦堃資深大律師:因為其實有啲工程係你哋管理公司自己去招標嘅? 18 鄭芷盈女士:係。 19 杜淦堃資深大律師:換句話講,其實去防止圍標,對你哋做有關嘅招標要公平、公正呢啲嘅 20 大原則,其實你哋係理解嘅? 21 鄭芷盈女士:理解。 22 杜淦堃資深大律師:個細節可能你冇睇過,係咪? 23 鄭芷盈女士:係。 24 杜淦堃資深大律師:你知道,亦都喺你在職時候,法團就收到呢個強制驗樓計劃通知書,第 25 一就要請個檢驗人員,個RI,呢個要做公開招標嘅,係咪? 26 鄭芷盈女士:係,冇錯。 27 杜淦堃資深大律師:而你哋置邦嘅其中一個職責,就係為法團處理有關投標嘅事情,包括出 28 席有關嘅會議,係唔係咁講? 29 鄭芷盈女士:係。 30 杜淦堃資深大律師:你證人供詞亦都有提供一啲資料嘅,如果去番你嘅證人供詞第28 段, 31 你見到呢度有你嘅證據係講僱用呢啲大型工程承辦商。睇番你嘅入職日期,同埋唔 32 好介意即係你嘅年齡,應該你都喺呢度做咗好耐,處理大型維修工作要做招標,要 33 協助一個法團,你喺宏福苑做維修之前可能係冇經驗嘅,係咪? 34 鄭芷盈女士:係。 35 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係你都係第一次做嘅? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第八天

44 本謄本由Epiq 編製 鄭芷盈女士:應該咁講,我喺--ISS 係我第一間做嘅物管公司因為。 1 杜淦堃資深大律師:而你第一間做物業管理公司,第一個去嘅屋苑都係宏福苑,係咪? 2 鄭芷盈女士:唔係,我係開頭年幾係喺另一個屋苑嘅。 3 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁嗰度有冇經驗做過呢啲大型維修工程嘅招標? 4 鄭芷盈女士:冇嘅。 5 杜淦堃資深大律師:所以係嘞,我想講嘅就係即係似乎喺宏福苑係你第一次? 6 鄭芷盈女士:係,冇錯。 7 杜淦堃資深大律師:喺做呢件事之前,公司有冇指引或者安排任何嘅訓練又好,提供額外資 8 料去協助你哋做呢件事? 9 鄭芷盈女士:呢方面我唔太清楚,因為多數都係黎經理同總公司嗰邊工程部去溝通。 10 杜淦堃資深大律師:就你而言,因為其實我見到你都有參與,你嘅證人供詞睇到你做咗好多 11 嘢嘅其實,所以我就想公道一啲問你有冇任何嘅培訓或者有冇任何嘅協助?因為你 12 未做過㗎嘛。有定冇呀? 13 鄭芷盈女士:我就冇。 14 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白。你28 段講到,其實同你監督嘅員工有啲--投標過程會準備一啲 15 文件,出席登記同撰寫會議紀錄,呢啲係你有份做嘅,係咪? 16 鄭芷盈女士:係。 17 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁就宏福苑召開特別業主大會,即係個EGM 進行表決,你都會為參加嗰 18 啲人登記嘅,係咪? 19 鄭芷盈女士:冇錯。 20 杜淦堃資深大律師:你嘅職責就包括咗其實對下啲住戶嘅身分,收集同處理嗰啲我哋叫做授 21 權書或者委託書,你都有份做嘅,係咪? 22 鄭芷盈女士:係。 23 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢個可能亦都冇睇過,如果我哋睇番頭先嗰個G1 文件夾588 頁,其實 24 物業管理業監管局係有一啲規定嘅,你會見到E(1)嗰度,基本上如果好簡單咁 25 講,如果物業管理公司去協助法團去收集委任代表文書或者點算紀錄,同埋展示有 26 關嘅名單,呢個要根據香港裏面有一條叫做《建築物管理條例》去做,呢個你知唔 27 知? 28 鄭芷盈女士:知道。 29 杜淦堃資深大律師:而你知唔知道?如果你知就知,唔知就唔知,法例我哋可以自己去睇。 30 根據《建築物管理條例》其實所有委任代表方式嘅投票名單,係要喺個會之前貼喺 31 當眼嘅位置,你知唔知呢樣嘢? 32 鄭芷盈女士:知道。 33 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係如果你哋置邦有協助收集呢啲代表文書,你其實會提番管委會個秘 34 書,我哋開會之前要貼出嚟,係咪? 35 鄭芷盈女士:係,冇錯。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第八天

45 本謄本由Epiq 編製 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢樣嘢實際上高有冇做到?因為似乎有啲人投訴係冇做呢一樣嘢。 1 鄭芷盈女士:有做。 2 杜淦堃資深大律師:你係唔係肯定每一次開會都有貼出嚟? 3 鄭芷盈女士:肯定,因為其實嗰個我哋叫「授權一覽表」,即係攞咗嗰個場,即係多數都喺 4 對面嗰個廣福社區會堂嘅,咁嗰啲展板其實係我負責貼嘅,咁所以呢張表都係我負 5 責貼上去嘅。 6 杜淦堃資深大律師:所以你--換句話講,你可以第一身講到畀委員會知,呢個規定照你嘅記 7 憶係有做嘅,而係你親身做嘅? 8 鄭芷盈女士:冇錯。 9 杜淦堃資深大律師:你哋個參與度其實都係幾高嘅,因為根據市建局陳日豪先生佢畀嘅證 10 供,佢話其實你哋同--其實(English Spoken),你知道有間公司係... 11 鄭芷盈女士:富邦。 12 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,都一齊同你哋做過一啲在場嘅檢測,去睇一睇要做--基本上就要睇 13 下要做啲咩嘢先,嗰啲你係有份參與嘅,係咪?或者你知道佢哋嚟過? 14 鄭芷盈女士:我知道係有做呢樣嘢,係。 15 杜淦堃資深大律師:你知道富邦都出咗份報告嘅,係咪? 16 鄭芷盈女士:係。 17 杜淦堃資深大律師:有冇睇過? 18 鄭芷盈女士:冇。 19 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁譬如佢哋嚟考察呢啲,邊個同佢哋去做? 20 鄭芷盈女士:當時我唔肯定邊位同佢去睇嘅? 21 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋進一步咁講,我哋知道其實喺2019 年1 月25 號,就喺周年大會 22 度決定委任鴻毅嘅第一次,而你亦都講一位屬於你哋公司總部,工程部嘅鄭日佳 23 (譯音)先生其實係協助個招標文件嘅。 24 鄭芷盈女士:係。 25 杜淦堃資深大律師:鄭先生平時唔喺宏福苑嘅? 26 鄭芷盈女士:唔係。 27 杜淦堃資深大律師:佢係就呢次大維修被派去處理呢件事嘅,係咪? 28 鄭芷盈女士:唔係,佢係即係總公司即係工程部嘅一個人嚟嘅,咁佢平時--即係就算大火災 29 之前都好,有時佢都會落嚟開一啲我哋叫做例會,即係大概一兩個月開嗰啲全體委 30 員會咁樣,有需要佢都會有落過嚟嘅。 31 杜淦堃資深大律師:所以你嘅證據就係呢位黎先生其實就係喺今次嘅大維修嗰啲招標文件度 32 係佢提供協助畀宏福苑嘅居民嘅? 33 鄭芷盈女士:即係就住RI,係咪呀?嗰個招標文件? 34 杜淦堃資深大律師:招標文件去聘請RI。 35 鄭芷盈女士:即係其實我睇番之前會議紀錄,就係佢有份協助草擬個(English 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第八天

46 本謄本由Epiq 編製 Spoken)應該係。 1 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白。 2 陸啟康法官:黎生抑或鄭生? 3 杜淦堃資深大律師:黎生,係一位... 4 鄭芷盈女士:鄭生。 5 杜淦堃資深大律師:鄭生,sorry,我講錯咗。 6 鄭芷盈女士:鄭日佳先生。 7 杜淦堃資深大律師:鄭日佳先生。另外,我想畀你睇一睇,就係如果睇番F1/138 頁。 8 F1/138,呢個係相關嘅文件,係咪?你有冇睇過其實? 9 鄭芷盈女士:我有見過呢份文件,但係我冇睇內容。 10 杜淦堃資深大律師:如果我哋睇141 頁,我哋見到個聯絡人係黎先生同埋你嚟嘅,即係你老 11 闆同埋你。 12 鄭芷盈女士:係。 13 杜淦堃資深大律師:其實收到呢份文件,如果佢哋有疑問嘅話,其實嗰個疑問就變咗會係你 14 同埋黎生去處理,係咪? 15 鄭芷盈女士:係。 16 杜淦堃資深大律師:而想投標嘅人士其實佢哋都有可能有接觸過你哋即係,係咪? 17 鄭芷盈女士:有機會囉,如果即係打嚟問嘅話。 18 杜淦堃資深大律師:你有記憶有啲咁嘅查詢,係咪? 19 鄭芷盈女士:呢個冇記憶。 20 杜淦堃資深大律師:如果睇143 頁,第13 條,基本上呢個就都係一個比較籠統普遍嘅講 21 法,即係條款,就係話招標限期係某一個時間你要投入番管理處嗰個投票箱嗰度。 22 鄭芷盈女士:係。 23 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢一個處理個投票箱,收呢啲標書都係你做,係咪? 24 鄭芷盈女士:收集標書就多數都會有委員一齊落嚟收,或者我哋可能平時開一啲會嘅時候一 25 齊開咁樣。 26 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係即係日常嘅工作去處理呢啲整個箱喺度,睇住個箱有冇人交,攞啲 27 文件出嚟畀啲委員,呢啲係你哋管理處嘅工作,係咪? 28 鄭芷盈女士:係。 29 杜淦堃資深大律師:行政上嘅工作喇? 30 鄭芷盈女士:係,冇錯。 31 杜淦堃資深大律師:如果我哋講番1 月25 號嗰個周年大會,置邦嘅職員,包括你、黎先 32 生,同埋有位周穎棠(譯音)先生,係咪?都有出席嘅,係咪?睇番E1 第1512 33 頁。我哋見到好多人嚟咗,我哋見到置邦興業代表有黎先生,有你,有周先生,係 34 咪? 35 鄭芷盈女士:係。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第八天

47 本謄本由Epiq 編製 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想你落去,落少少睇一睇,呢一個紀錄都應該係你做嘅,我哋見到。 1 鄭芷盈女士:唔。 2 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想你幫一幫我哋,因為我哋手上高嘅資料關於當時嘅情況有限,要靠 3 你哋憶述番當時嘅情況。 4 鄭芷盈女士:係。 5 杜淦堃資深大律師:嗰次參加嘅居民應該比較踴躍,係咪?多唔多人嚟? 6 鄭芷盈女士:印象中唔算係好多。 7 杜淦堃資深大律師:個場爆唔爆?喺邊度開你記唔記得?睇番第1 頁。 8 鄭芷盈女士:係,可唔可以睇番?係唔係會堂? 9 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,社區會堂。 10 鄭芷盈女士:社區會堂,唔。 11 杜淦堃資深大律師:出席咗三百六十八人,都算多,係咪? 12 鄭芷盈女士:因為有啲可能係授權嘅,但係現場我印象中唔係話好多嘅。 13 杜淦堃資深大律師:你講唔講到咁授權票同埋實際嚟嘅人,你而家睇番呢度,你見唔見? 14 鄭芷盈女士:見到,記唔到個比例係幾多。 15 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想--你應該都知道,其實大多數業主都係投咗票畀鴻毅嘅,你會有印 16 象嘛? 17 鄭芷盈女士:有啲印象。 18 杜淦堃資深大律師:你如果落去一路睇呢份文件,可能你會記得番。 19 鄭芷盈女士:唔。 20 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢度。 21 鄭芷盈女士:唔。 22 杜淦堃資深大律師:你會記得係大比數通過委任鴻毅嘅,係咪? 23 鄭芷盈女士:唔。 24 杜淦堃資深大律師:第二位遠東建築得7.7%? 25 鄭芷盈女士:係。 26 杜淦堃資深大律師:其實鴻毅投標價仲比遠東高,你有冇印象? 27 鄭芷盈女士:冇印象。 28 杜淦堃資深大律師:你記唔記得會上高有冇討論過關於呢啲選擇,而點解咁多人投畀鴻毅? 29 鄭芷盈女士:冇討論過。 30 杜淦堃資深大律師:另外一方面,我哋知道有啲係授權票,收授權票係唔係你去做? 31 鄭芷盈女士:有機會係,即係唔係每一次。 32 杜淦堃資深大律師:幾多日之前開始收?你嘅習慣。 33 鄭芷盈女士:要睇番法團嘅,因為如果佢哋認為可能多嘅話,就有機會提前,即係七日左右 34 可能會收一次咁樣嘅。 35 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想問番你哋當時個做法,因為之前你都知道委員會,同埋或者我哋都 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第八天

48 本謄本由Epiq 編製 有問過,收完之後嗰個真確性係點樣去核實?你嘅記憶呢次開會因為都有唔少嘅授 1 權票,係咪? 2 鄭芷盈女士:我諗大概可能都係一百張或者百幾張,因為我哋每一次大概都係差唔多收到呢 3 個數目。 4 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁點樣核實個真確性?或者有冇核實? 5 鄭芷盈女士:有對嘅,但係我哋都係對番個單位同埋嗰個業主名,咁簽名就實在係冇個式樣 6 可以對到。 7 杜淦堃資深大律師:亦都冇隨機也好,即係抽樣也好,或者全部都好,冇打過去問下「喂, 8 你係唔係授咗--即係畀咗授權票人?」冇呢個程序,係咪? 9 鄭芷盈女士:冇,除非係佢啲資料寫得唔齊全嘅話,就我哋會問番佢。 10 杜淦堃資深大律師:你有冇記憶嗰個授權票多數係授權畀幾位?會唔會係好集中幾個人或者 11 有冇印象? 12 鄭芷盈女士:多數係主席或者副主席、秘書嗰啲咁樣嘅。 13 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白。接住落嚟我想問下你,鴻毅後來被委任為工程顧問嘅一件事--咁 14 呢個時間可能係一個好嘅時間。 15 陸啟康法官:好,我哋押後到下晝2 點15 分。 16 許偉強資深大律師:主席。 17 陸啟康法官:係,許律師。 18 許偉強資深大律師:就住時間方面可能要作少少嘅請求,就係因為剛才聽到杜大律師向鄭小 19 姐提出過有關嗰啲水缸嘅相片希望佢提供嗰個問題嘅,我相信鄭小姐都可能會喺食 20 晏嘅時候會儘量睇下點樣𠳕番出嚟整理一下,但係我就唔知需要嘅時間幾耐。因為 21 我相信可能杜大律師下晝如果有嗰啲相片提供嘅話,可能佢都會就住嗰啲相片有跟 22 住嘅問題,所以我想保險啲,就係如果係咁嘅話,我想確保鄭小姐有足夠時間攞到 23 嗰啲相片出嚟畀委員會的話,我睇下可唔可以2 點45 分我哋返番嚟。 24 陸啟康法官:不如我哋暫定兩點半。 25 許偉強資深大律師:好。 26 陸啟康法官:如果兩點半你需要多啲時間,我哋先至再押後,好唔好? 27 許偉強資深大律師:好,唔該。 28 陸啟康法官:我哋而家就押後到兩點半先,好唔好? 29

30 13 時01 分聆訊押後 31 14 時30 分聆訊恢復 32

33 14 時30 分置邦興業有限公司物業主任證人鄭芷盈女士恢復作供 34

35 杜淦堃資深大律師:法官閣下,主席,我哋喺午飯時候,許大律師一方係提供咗一啲新證 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第八天

49 本謄本由Epiq 編製 據,唔影響我哋跟住落嚟繼續嘅盤問。但係處理完呢個證人之後,我哋先討論有關 1 衍生嘅問題可能。 2 陸啟康法官:請繼續。 3 杜淦堃資深大律師:鄭小姐,你好。 4 鄭芷盈女士:係。 5 杜淦堃資深大律師:跟住落嚟我想你幫一幫我哋解釋番,委任鴻毅作為工程顧問嗰個情況 6 嘅。我哋知道喺2020 年嘅1 月,就工程顧問呢件事就已經開始進行招標? 7 鄭芷盈女士:係。 8 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁呀一共收到三十五份標書。 9 鄭芷盈女士:唔。 10 杜淦堃資深大律師:鴻毅個投標價係$308,000 嘅。 11 鄭芷盈女士:唔。 12 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係我哋見到呢,之後就有一段時間嘅延誤,因為由2020 年1 月,到 13 後嚟鴻毅其實係到2021 年12 月11 號,個特別業主大會先至通過個委任嘅。 14 鄭芷盈女士:係。 15 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋嘅理解係喺嗰個差唔多兩年嘅時間,喺宏福苑裏面住戶之間就大維 16 修呢件事都有啲爭議,係咪? 17 鄭芷盈女士:都有。 18 杜淦堃資深大律師:你可唔可以都幫一幫我哋,話畀委員會聽,其實點解等咗差唔多兩年先 19 至委任到佢哋做顧問? 20 鄭芷盈女士:唔好意思,你頭先係咪話20 年同21 年我想知? 21 杜淦堃資深大律師:係。 22 鄭芷盈女士:其實即係我記憶呢,應該係因為嗰兩年係疫情,就舉辦唔到一啲業主大會。 23 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔嗯。 24 鄭芷盈女士:係,因為唔可以聚集啲人,所以一路都即係唔可以透過業主大會度揀選。 25 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢個係你理解唯一嘅理由? 26 鄭芷盈女士:我記得係呢個原因。 27 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔。我哋知道鴻毅係2021 年12 月11 日喺個業主大會上高被委任為 28 顧問。 29 鄭芷盈女士:唔。 30 杜淦堃資深大律師:如果你睇番有關嘅紀錄G1-2/1478 頁,我哋睇到呢個係當時嘅紀錄, 31 呢個係你做紀錄嘅,係咪? 32 鄭芷盈女士:係。 33 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,我見到正如之前嘅會議,喺你哋方面你有參加,林文欣先生有。 34 鄭芷盈女士:係。 35 杜淦堃資深大律師:黎生都有,另外就仲有陳志東先生,佢應該係你哋嘅老闆,係咪? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第八天

50 本謄本由Epiq 編製 鄭芷盈女士:係。 1 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想問下你哋當日嘅職責亦都係有處理啲授權票,係咪? 2 鄭芷盈女士:係。 3 杜淦堃資深大律師:而同之前嗰一次開會一樣,都係預先收咗你哋會有--喺開會嘅時候展示 4 番出嚟,係咪? 5 鄭芷盈女士:冇錯。 6 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋因為而家冇咗嗰個紀錄似乎,冇人提供到畀我哋,呢個係當時都係 7 你自己去處理㗎嘛,係咪? 8 鄭芷盈女士:張貼,係。 9 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔。顯示咗,有關嘅紀錄會顯示到啲乜嘢? 10 鄭芷盈女士:會顯示到收集咗呢一個業主大會有提交過嗰啲--即係我哋嘅授權票嘅單位,無 11 論有效或者無效都會顯示到嘅。 12 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔。咁授權--會講出邊個單位喇我相信? 13 鄭芷盈女士:係。 14 杜淦堃資深大律師:授權人同被授權人都會寫出個名出嚟? 15 鄭芷盈女士:唔會嘅。 16 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔會嘅。 17 鄭芷盈女士:唔會,係會淨係顯示到個單位。 18 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係只會顯示到邊個單位提供咗授權票畀人? 19 鄭芷盈女士:冇錯,即係有曾經交授權票嘅。 20 杜淦堃資深大律師:係咁多? 21 鄭芷盈女士:係嘞。 22 杜淦堃資深大律師:好嘞,都係問番你關於呢個會議,如果我哋睇番個會議紀錄開頭嗰度, 23 去番上高,係嘞,我哋見到出席人數有672 人。 24 鄭芷盈女士:係。 25 杜淦堃資深大律師:包括授權同埋其他人士代表。 26 鄭芷盈女士:唔。 27 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢個喺籃球場嗰度舉行嘅? 28 鄭芷盈女士:唔。 29 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想問下,有幾多人出席喥呀,你講唔講到? 30 鄭芷盈女士:我要諗一諗。 31 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係換句話講,嗰個出席人數嗰個係咪就係你話「包括授權其他人士代 32 表出席」,呢個係咪就係其實親身到場嘅人數? 33 鄭芷盈女士:唔係,即係呢個意思係包括埋授權票,係嘞。 34 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔。係,我哋從個出席率睇到,就係總出席佔嗰個業權份數係呢八千 35 幾,即係三分一喥。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第八天

51 本謄本由Epiq 編製 鄭芷盈女士:唔。 1 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔,咁你亦都顯示到有八份文書係無效,授權票,係咪? 2 鄭芷盈女士:係。 3 杜淦堃資深大律師:就呢一次業主大會而言,我想問下你,你有冇任何嘅記憶就係就授權票 4 嗰一方面,你記唔記得有冇咩嘢特別嘅情況呢?例如有冇好集中授權某幾位委員或 5 者居民,或者有冇其他嘅觀察可以幫到委員會? 6 鄭芷盈女士:記憶中冇乜特別,因為都係--如果即係委員之中應該都係主席同埋副主席可能 7 會比較多授權票,即係同以往業主大會都係一樣。 8 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔,好,我想問下你另外一個--關於另外一個指控,有居民有指控就係 9 當時有人就係四圍去遊說啲居民畀授權票,你有冇--就呢個指控你幫唔幫到我哋? 10 鄭芷盈女士:我自己就冇見過。 11 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白。亦都有一個指控係話,有好多唔係居民或者唔係街坊嘅人出席會 12 議,參加會議入場,你哋會唔會核實咗個身份先畀佢入場? 13 鄭芷盈女士:有幾--即係點講,以往唔係太多人嘅時候呢,就冇--冇限定嘅。咁後屘開始都 14 比較多人即係參加呢啲業主大會,曾經都有試過話要畀啲色帶佢哋,即係要做咗登 15 記係業主或者係被授權人先可以入場嘅。 16 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔,你記番呢一次,2021 年12 月疫情中間,你揀咗一笪室外嘅地方 17 開,我相信呢個可能同疫情都有關? 18 鄭芷盈女士:係。 19 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢一次有冇採取任何措施要佢確實身份至可以入場? 20 鄭芷盈女士:唔係太過記得。 21 杜淦堃資深大律師:好嘞,跟住我想討論下一個會,下一個有關嘅會議已經係2024 年1 月 22 28 日,就係批核宏業有關嘅工程,嗰個造價係三億三嗰個合約? 23 鄭芷盈女士:係。 24 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋--同以往一樣,都係你哋去收集同埋處理嗰啲授權文書嘅,係咪? 25 鄭芷盈女士:係,冇錯。 26 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔,就呢一次而言,同上兩次開會有冇分別?你可唔可以講到畀我哋聽 27 個流程? 28 鄭芷盈女士:流程冇分別。 29 杜淦堃資深大律師:流程冇分別,而處理授權方法亦都係一樣。 30 鄭芷盈女士:係。 31 杜淦堃資深大律師:可唔可以咁講,呢一次同上兩次都係一樣,你哋都係睇到授權票之後, 32 睇下有冇邊個單位係個居民個資料正唔正確? 33 鄭芷盈女士:係。 34 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係就冇去做任何措施去核實有關嘅居民係咪真係授權咗授權人去投票 35 㗎? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第八天

52 本謄本由Epiq 編製 鄭芷盈女士:呢度冇。 1 杜淦堃資深大律師:都係冇嘅? 2 鄭芷盈女士:唔。 3 杜淦堃資深大律師:就呢一次而言,就邊個被委任,有冇人手持大量嘅授權票呢一方面嘅消 4 息,你幫唔幫到我哋,你有冇任何嘅記憶? 5 鄭芷盈女士:唔係太記得到。 6 杜淦堃資深大律師:有冇任何不尋常嘅情況,例如一個人,有大量嘅授權票集中於其中一個 7 委員或者居民身上? 8 鄭芷盈女士:因為我記得,即係咁多次業主大會其實都係主席或者副主席,佢哋會比較多囉 9 都係。 10 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔嗯。當時可唔可以咁講呢?就開呢一個會議嘅時候,居民之間都有好 11 大嘅爭議,係咪應該做一個咁貴嘅工程,咁講啱唔啱? 12 鄭芷盈女士:都有聽過。 13 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔嗯。就呢啲嘅爭議,你哋處理呢一次會議同埋授權票有冇採取咩嘢特 14 別嘅措施去確保公正性,定係同以往一樣咁做? 15 鄭芷盈女士:做法都係一樣。 16 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔。喺呢一次個會議裏面,基於其實個背景係都有相當嘅爭議,居民喺 17 開會嘅時候其實有冇機會去問問題我想問? 18 鄭芷盈女士:我唔肯定呢一個會,我唔記得佢有冇一個問答環節,但係其實個議程係提早十 19 四天就已經畀業主,如果佢哋有問題,應該會喺嗰段期間可以作出查詢囉。 20 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔,咁嗰十四日期間有冇開過第二啲會議去解釋畀居民聽有關要投票嘅 21 內容或者畀機會佢哋問問題? 22 鄭芷盈女士:呢個會議就冇。 23 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔。就呢個會議,我哋知道有啲相關嘅投訴,我想帶你去睇一睇,睇你 24 你有冇乜嘢觀察?第一個就係G1-1/716 頁,呢一個係一封2024 年4 月5 日嘅 25 郵件,係一名居民去信民政事務專員同埋市區重建局,呢份文件聲稱佢係代表200 26 名關注嘅居民,你見到第一段咁講,係咪? 27 鄭芷盈女士:唔。 28 杜淦堃資深大律師:就講到「本人代表約二百名業主跪求民政署、市建局、獨立審查組同埋 29 競委會、房屋局等」,就話有啲不當嘅情況。你見到佢第1 段,佢提到話「2024 30 年1 月28 日業主大會上,存在巨量投票數量的差異,管理公司、法團一直不肯公 31 開授權書嘅名單,短短二十分鐘投票數量增加約280 人,該段時間入場人數不少於 32 20 人。」我想問一問你有啲咩嘢觀察,因為你先至在場,你會講到畀我哋聽,佢呢 33 個指控有冇基礎? 34 鄭芷盈女士:因為我記得呢一個會議都係用嗰個叫做電腦點票嘅方式嘅,咁我哋如果電腦點 35 票方式,譬如嗰個業主嚟到攞佢嗰份投票表格,面頭會有一個出席率嘅紙,我哋要 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第八天

53 本謄本由Epiq 編製 擝咗出嚟就畀點票公司做計算嘅。 1 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔嗯。 2 鄭芷盈女士:我唔知佢呢個講法會唔會係--因為其實我哋唔會擝一張就去畀嗰個點票公司嗰 3 個人㗎嘛,咁其實可能我哋會儲咗一疊,跟住先會攞畀嗰個點票公司去計,即係我 4 唔知會唔會呢個講法就會令到啲業主有誤會。 5 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔,另外,佢有一個講法就係你哋唔肯公開授權書嘅名單,據你嘅記憶 6 有冇人要求過去睇或者你哋公開? 7 鄭芷盈女士:冇記憶,但係都係會有張貼嗰個授權一覽表喺嗰個業主大會當日嗰度。 8 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想你睇另外一封嘅郵件,同一個文件夾第658 頁,呢個係另外一個投 9 訴嘅電郵,畀民政事務處及其他唔同嘅部門,指稱有不當嘅情況。而你睇第3 段, 10 佢有話過要求法團管理公司公開所有投票及授權票嘅業戶單位嘅。 11 鄭芷盈女士:唔。 12 杜淦堃資深大律師:據你嘅講法其實當時都係張貼咗出嚟嘅? 13 鄭芷盈女士:係。 14 杜淦堃資深大律師:所以呢個係有公開嘅? 15 鄭芷盈女士:有。 16 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋知道喺呢個會議之後,民政事務處其實記錄咗九宗嘅投訴,包括質 17 疑會議收集嘅授權文書有效性,有啲甚至乎話有人受到威嚇,擔心會議被操控,當 18 然亦都有一啲好似頭先嗰封咁話係代表200 名業主發出㗎喇。呢一啲投訴,關於會 19 議嘅投訴,你哋有冇--相信管理處都有收過,係咪? 20 鄭芷盈女士:會議投訴? 21 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係開完會話會議唔公平,管理處有冇收過有相關嘅投訴? 22 鄭芷盈女士:印象中正式嘅信件係冇,即係有聽過啲街坊咁樣講,唔。 23 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔。所以我哋睇番個維修工程投訴紀錄,裏面就冇呢啲嘅紀錄? 24 鄭芷盈女士:唔。 25 杜淦堃資深大律師:就有啲住戶不滿授權書個收集方式,置邦有冇--當時有冇覺得有問題需 26 要檢討或者跟進嘅地方? 27 鄭芷盈女士:呢個我冇聽過有業戶有表達過有呢個即係唔滿意收集嗰個方式,唔。 28 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔。呢啲投訴信,你哋知唔知㗎事後?有冇人話番畀你哋知有呢方面嘅 29 投訴? 30 鄭芷盈女士:冇。 31 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想你睇一睇另外J1-3 文件,6229,投訴唔係淨係關於授權方式嘅, 32 呢個係一個投訴嘅電郵,係住戶畀屋宇署嘅。 33 鄭芷盈女士:係。 34 杜淦堃資深大律師:你一路睇落去,你就係會睇到呢個佢--下低,佢指稱自己係宏福苑嘅業 35 主,佢就話有一系列嘅事件,跟住佢講到第2 段,「後期有--仲有唔少業主向立案 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第八天

54 本謄本由Epiq 編製 法團主席查詢無果,數天後,宏業私自寄信給法團主席,管理公司亦提醒主席在公 1 平情況下不可打開信件,但主席依然堅持打開信件公開畀法團成員睇,信中聲稱, 2 受處分是小型工程牌照,唔影響RGBC 牌照」。好嘞,亦都有呢啲嘅投訴嘅,管理 3 處係咪知道有啲咁嘅投訴㗎? 4 鄭芷盈女士:呢個投訴,我冇印象有見過。 5 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋知道個投訴其實都係頗多,而寄咗畀唔同嘅政府部門嘅,咁我就係 6 想問一問你嘅就係,而當中嘅投訴亦都有可能唔止淨係關宏福苑有關,佢哋亦都提 7 到其他屋苑嘅。咁我呢度唔逐一畀你睇嘞,但係你可唔可以同我講,就你哋管理公 8 司而言,而家你嘅意思係咪你唔知道住戶之後就關於開會嘅事情有作出正式嘅投 9 訴,因為嗰啲投訴唔係畀你哋管理公司,係咪咁? 10 鄭芷盈女士:係。 11 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢個我想問你幫唔幫到我哋,我哋覺得有啲詫異嘅,因為其實個投訴 12 呢,亦都係對--有指你哋幫手處理嗰個手法不滿,而我哋就見唔到有一啲投訴係寄 13 畀你哋嘅,你哋嘅意思係你哋收唔到書面嘅投訴? 14 鄭芷盈女士:我記憶中冇收過。 15 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想問多你一方面關於開會,授權票同埋親自出席嗰個問題。你哋有冇 16 措施去確保親自出席嘅業主,嗰個數量係符合法定嘅要求?換句話講,你哋有冇計 17 過要有幾多個業主親自出席先至有效,呢個係咪考慮嘅一部分? 18 鄭芷盈女士:都會。 19 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔。咁有關嘅規定同埋你哋個措施,你可唔可以講一講畀我哋聽? 20 鄭芷盈女士:唔好意思,你可唔可以重複一次係點樣? 21 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋嘅理解係有規定呢,一定要有相當數量嘅業主或者可以投票嘅人係 22 要親身出席嘅,你哋知唔知道有呢個法定嘅要求,你哋採取咩嘢措施去確保係符合 23 法定嘅要求,你講唔講到? 24 鄭芷盈女士:以我認知法定要求應該係授權加親身出席就係屋苑數量嘅10%。 25 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔嗯。咁我想問下親身投票,你哋理唔理解有冇法定嘅要求? 26 鄭芷盈女士:親身投票有冇法定要求,即係個出席率定係? 27 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔係透過授權票嚟投票,要自己嚟。你哋知唔知道有冇要求? 28 鄭芷盈女士:要求就係要業主本人。 29 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔,而嗰個數量呢?即係名業主或者幾多個per cent,你哋知唔知道 30 有冇要求? 31 鄭芷盈女士:數量應該係會計埋(English Spoken)嘅喎。 32 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔,你可唔可以幫一幫我哋,G1-1/454 頁,如果我哋睇番呢份文件嘅 33 一開始,上番去。呢份係我今朝早畀你睇過嗰份文件嚟嘅。 34 鄭芷盈女士:係。 35 杜淦堃資深大律師:係物業管理監管局發出,就係關於嗰個工作守則。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第八天

55 本謄本由Epiq 編製 鄭芷盈女士:唔。 1 杜淦堃資深大律師:就係愛嚟做投標同埋防止圍標嘅工作守則嚟嘅,我想你去睇一睇454 2 頁,你有冇睇過呢個工作守則,你可唔可以睇一睇我哋?你有冇睇過呀之前? 3 鄭芷盈女士:呢一份好似冇。 4 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔,呢度咁講嘅「(English Spoken )」,第二「(English 5 Spoken)」,你明呀呵?呢個5%同100 名業主嘅要求? 6 鄭芷盈女士:唔。 7 杜淦堃資深大律師:再去睇 467 頁,落啲,係,你見到有一個叫做「(English 8 Spoken)」,呢個重複咗有關個要求,見唔見到? 9 鄭芷盈女士:係。 10 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想問你嘅就係,對於呢一個要求,頭先可能你唔記得。 11 鄭芷盈女士:唔。 12 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想問下你,因為我問你嗰陣,似乎你就唔知道有個咁嘅要求,我想問 13 下你,你而家睇完,可唔可以話到畀我知,其實你哋有冇措施去確保真係有100 位 14 或者5%架? 15 鄭芷盈女士:咁都有符合到嘅。 16 杜淦堃資深大律師:你肯定?我想你講清楚同埋諗清楚,因為你頭先似乎唔記得,如果有措 17 施去符合呢一個要求,你應該講到畀我哋知,當時係做過咩嘢措施嘅,所以我想你 18 諗清楚先答我。 19 鄭芷盈女士:好。 20 杜淦堃資深大律師:當然你--如果你唔知道,我哋--我唔想你去猜度,因為你只可以講你記 21 唔記得。 22 鄭芷盈女士:措施上就應該冇特別,係。 23 杜淦堃資深大律師:點解呢?如果你--個要求唔係淨係咁嘅,喺個《實務守則》上高。如果 24 你睇番第588 頁,A,G1-1,係,你見到E(2)嗰度呢,呢度守則嗰個題目就 25 係,個小段開始「(English Spoken)」,你睇到喇? 26 鄭芷盈女士:唔。 27 杜淦堃資深大律師:E(2)嗰度,嗰度就話「(English Spoken )」,你應該明,係 28 咪?你明白呢個要求,係咪? 29 鄭芷盈女士:我想望多一次先。 30 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔嗯,你可唔可以重複? 31 鄭芷盈女士:我想睇多一次。 32 杜淦堃資深大律師:好呀,我可以解釋畀你聽。 33 鄭芷盈女士:係,係。 34 杜淦堃資深大律師:你知道呢個要求好簡單,你亦都睇得明,係咪? 35 鄭芷盈女士:唔。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第八天

56 本謄本由Epiq 編製 杜淦堃資深大律師:因為我睇番應該係你去準備1 月28 號2024 年嗰個會議紀錄同埋決議 1 紀錄,或者提一提你,你睇一睇G1-2/1495 頁,點解我想問你同畀個機會你解 2 釋,就係我睇唔到,喺個會議紀錄度我睇唔到你哋有列明幾多人係親身出席,而幾 3 多係授權票。 4 鄭芷盈女士:係。 5 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢一個你幫唔幫到我哋去解釋呀? 6 鄭芷盈女士:而家我冇數據即係當日有幾多喺--現場有幾多人。 7 杜淦堃資深大律師:14--呢個係1495,係咪?你睇1498,我哋見到贊成同唔贊成,我哋 8 都係睇唔到授權同埋親身同埋嚟投票嘅人,因為每個議程亦都可能有唔同嘅投票 9 率,係咪? 10 鄭芷盈女士:係。 11 杜淦堃資深大律師:睇一睇番AGM 當日另外嘅投票結果,如果去番G1-1/1023 頁,呢個 12 係我哋搵到個紀錄,睇下個投票結果喇,呢個都係你幫手準備嘅,係咪?係咪呀? 13 鄭芷盈女士:應該係另外一個同事寫嘅。 14 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,但係你見過呢啲文件,個格式你都係熟悉㗎喇,係咪? 15 鄭芷盈女士:係,緐。 16 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢個係話番畀大家知,顯示番畀住戶睇嗰個投票結果。 17 鄭芷盈女士:係。 18 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋都係唔知道有幾多人係親身出席,有幾多人通過授權票嘅。鄭小 19 姐,呢個唔係對你個人嘅批評,其實係我哋想探討嗰個制度同措施嘅問題,頭先你 20 答我問題嘅時候,似乎我得出個答案就係,其實開會,你哋係冇記錄低邊個--有幾 21 多人係親身出席,有幾多人係用授權票嘅,係咪? 22 鄭芷盈女士:其實都唔係話冇記錄低,但係會議紀錄度即係冇特別咁樣寫出嚟,因為我哋授 23 權票同埋親身出席業主嗰個簽到係唔一樣嘅。 24 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係似乎你哋喺有關嘅紀錄就冇顯示到出嚟,係咪? 25 鄭芷盈女士:係。 26 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係可能你嘅意思係,你哋係有紀錄嘅? 27 鄭芷盈女士:係。 28 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係,喺根據我哋睇到嘅文件,喺會議紀錄嗰度就睇唔到已經? 29 鄭芷盈女士:就冇特別--係嘞,冇特別咁樣寫出嚟。 30 杜淦堃資深大律師:你知唔知道呢個親身投票嘅要求,即係當然,我唔可以要求你熟悉法 31 例,但係我可以話畀你知,就係呢個係一個法定嘅要求嚟嘅,呢個你知唔知? 32 鄭芷盈女士:知道。 33 杜淦堃資深大律師:你知道。 34 法官閣下,主席,可唔可以畀少少時間我哋傾一傾? 35 孫靖乾資深大律師:主席。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第八天

57 本謄本由Epiq 編製 杜淦堃資深大律師:我諗我有一個修正嘅,主席,為咗對鄭小姐公平,我頭先畀佢睇嗰個要 1 求,開會嗰日同埋後來嗰個(English Spoken)出嚟係𧶄咗三個月嘅,所以可 2 能開--嗰個(English Spoken),有關嗰個條款,所以可能喺開會當日,嗰一 3 條條款係未生效嘅,所以我想記錄番,我哋。 4 孫靖乾資深大律師:主席,我都係想補充番,即係都係為咗公平。其實我理解呢一個有關嘅 5 條款應該係喺2025 年嘅7 月份嘅時候先至係(English Spoken),如果主... 6 陸啟康法官:2025 年7 月? 7 孫靖乾資深大律師:係,7 月,2025 年嘅7 月份,係,咁同埋頭先我哋睇到譬如相關杜大 8 律師佢提及嗰個物管局嘅一啲嘅(English Spoken ),如果我哋睇番個 9 (English Spoken)嘅第1 版,譬如喺呢一個第580 頁,頭先我哋睇緊嗰個第 10 580 頁,咁我哋喺左手邊-- 我哋因為-- 係,左手邊有一個(English 11 Spoken),嗰度應該係都係寫住係7 月2025 年嘅,係,唔該晒。 12 杜淦堃資深大律師:主席,有兩個唔同嘅要求嘅其實。一個係個(English Spoken)嘅 13 生效日期,一個係個(English Spoken)嘅要求。(English Spoken)嘅 14 要求係2024 年,但係亦都係開呢個會之後啱啱先有嘅,所以公平起見就係有兩個 15 唔同嘅日期嘅。 16 許偉強資深大律師:主席,可能補充一點,就係關於6C 嗰個要求,應該嗰個法例嘅修訂應 17 該係2004 年,即係開呢個會之後修訂,但係嗰個生效日期就應該係2025 年嘅7 18 月嘅。 19 杜淦堃資深大律師:最後有一點想同你補充嘅,我哋喺--我想顯示番喺林文欣先生部電腦裏 20 面,今朝你亦都睇到,我哋搵到有一份應該係一個草稿嚟嘅,係遞交業主簽名文 21 件。似乎係有一啲信件係發過畀住戶,係確認佢有冇委--簽署一啲委託書嘅? 22 鄭芷盈女士:唔。 23 杜淦堃資深大律師:你有冇見過呢啲信件? 24 鄭芷盈女士:記得有見過。 25 杜淦堃資深大律師:因為呢啲似乎係有人嘗試過核實有冇提交授權票呢一樣嘢? 26 鄭芷盈女士:係。 27 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係你嘅記憶,似乎你證供係話冇嘅,係咪? 28 鄭芷盈女士:我證供? 29 杜淦堃資深大律師:據你嘅記憶,喺開會之前有冇試過去核實,有冇提供授權票呢一樣嘢? 30 鄭芷盈女士:因為呢個我記得係即係有業戶要求5%開業主大會嘅。 31 杜淦堃資深大律師:之後嘅事嚟嘅。 32 鄭芷盈女士:嗄。如果平時我哋舉辦--即係法團話舉辦啲業主大會,就冇特別咁樣出呢啲信 33 嘅,係。 34 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢個係咪你去處理? 35 鄭芷盈女士:唔係。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第八天

58 本謄本由Epiq 編製 杜淦堃資深大律師:邊位同事處理?因為林生話唔係佢處理。 1 鄭芷盈女士:我唔係咁清楚,但係應該就會係黎生。 2 杜淦堃資深大律師:應該係黎生,係。 3 主席,我冇其他問題。 4 林樂夫大律師:主席,我有啲問題想問證人。 5 陸啟康法官:李大律師係咪都有問題?你係咪頭先有問題想再重複--即係會問一個同一類嘅 6 問題想問呢一位嘅證人?唔緊要,你諗一諗先,我諗由Victory Fire 嗰面。 7 林樂夫大律師:唔該晒,主席。 8 鄭小姐,咁代表Victory Fire 嘅,咁我啱啱就有啲新文件,我想問下你關 9 於啲相,睇下你知定唔知咁解嘅啫? 10 鄭芷盈女士:係。 11 林樂夫大律師:如果唔知就話唔知。 12 鄭芷盈女士:係。 13 林樂夫大律師:咁H6/6829,係,咁就係較早前,即係討論有啲相你由WhatsApp 畀咗畀 14 鍾生,咁呢啲就係放大咗、好清楚嘅相,係咪? 15 鄭芷盈女士:係,係。 16 林樂夫大律師:咁你之前都有望過啲相㗎嘛? 17 鄭芷盈女士:係。 18 林樂夫大律師:因為呢度我想問下,睇下幫唔幫到手就係,呢度寫「A 座天台消防缸放水 19 前」,放水前,2025 年11 月3 日,咁你嘅理解係點解係寫「放水前」嘅? 20 鄭芷盈女士:唔清楚。 21 林樂夫大律師:唔知,好。咁跟住就,仲有6831,6831,咁呢度就宏道閣天台消防缸,咁 22 2025 年9 月29 日瓦仔完成,跟住有個字係「養水」嘅。 23 鄭芷盈女士:係。 24 林樂夫大律師:你知唔知「養水」點解? 25 鄭芷盈女士:我唔肯定,但係即係我理解就係可能要擺住啲水喺度,然之後可能測試下會唔 26 會有一啲滲漏。 27 林樂夫大律師:係,即係(English Spoken),係咪?即係做... 28 鄭芷盈女士:即係--係,類似係咁樣意思。 29 林樂夫大律師:係,咁同埋其實即係據你所知,成個大維修,因為個目的就係消防缸維修 30 完,砌磚,再轉做食水或者鹹水缸㗎嘛,臨時,係咪? 31 鄭芷盈女士:以我所知,都係。 32 林樂夫大律師:咁即係話就算消防缸而家叫做9 月29 號砌咗瓦仔,但係成個停--消防水係 33 唔會--係未完成㗎嘛,因為之後下一個目的就會變成食水同埋鹹水缸㗎嘛,係咪? 34 鄭芷盈女士:係。 35 林樂夫大律師:係,好。跟住就係H7/6835,我淨係想問你喺唔喺個群組入面? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第八天

59 本謄本由Epiq 編製 鄭芷盈女士:唔喺。 1 林樂夫大律師:Okay,咁我哋可以去下一個題目。咁就麻煩去睇一睇R1/694。係,咁呢 2 度,你會見到係畀Victory Fire 嘅一封信,有ISS,咁個標題叫「有關:消防 3 年檢執修工程招標」,見唔見到? 4 鄭芷盈女士:見到。 5 林樂夫大律師:係,咁就你會見到有個限期要投標,係咪? 6 鄭芷盈女士:係。 7 林樂夫大律師:25 年9 月15 日。 8 鄭芷盈女士:係。 9 林樂夫大律師:跟住你就會睇到,「如對上述事宜有查詢,請致電」,跟住有個電話,「與 10 本處職員鄭小姐聯絡嘅」,見唔見到? 11 鄭芷盈女士:係,見到。 12 林樂夫大律師:嗄,即係抌印就係黎經理,但係其實你哋ISS 係要求Victory Fire 同埋 13 其他投標者係聯絡你㗎嘛,係咪? 14 鄭芷盈女士:係。 15 林樂夫大律師:咁我哋睇前一頁,693,693 就係另一封信你哋公司畀Victory Fire 16 嘅,25 年嘅10 月2 號。 17 鄭芷盈女士:係。 18 林樂夫大律師:咁你會見到係(English Spoken),即係Victory Fire 報價,跟住 19 你哋接受嘞,咁有個合約? 20 鄭芷盈女士:唔。 21 林樂夫大律師:咁就你睇下嗰個第二段,咁第二句開始,就都係你--你識睇英文㗎喇,係 22 咪? 23 鄭芷盈女士:唔。 24 林樂夫大律師:咁就話有咩嘢事係搵簽名嗰個或者你,係咪? 25 鄭芷盈女士:係。 26 林樂夫大律師:所以其實喺關--Victory Fire 喺關於宏福苑嘅消防年檢產生嘅執修,其 27 實搵你都係好正常嘅,係咪? 28 鄭芷盈女士:可以咁講。 29 林樂夫大律師:你係個即係聯絡人嚟㗎嘛,係咪? 30 鄭芷盈女士:聯絡人囉,係。 31 林樂夫大律師:係。好,跟住就我哋可以睇一睇嗰個Victory Fire 嘅報價,751 頁,同 32 一個文件夾,係,開始呢個係--你會見宏泰消防畀置邦物業,其實佢都係畀黎經理 33 同埋你嘅,係咪? 34 鄭芷盈女士:係。 35 林樂夫大律師:好,咁日期係25 年嘅5 月23 號,跟住我哋可以好快咁一路碌落去,去到 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第八天

60 本謄本由Epiq 編製 760 頁,因為佢有幾頁嘅,咁可以--你都睇過呢個文件㗎喇? 1 鄭芷盈女士:唔。 2 林樂夫大律師:係,跟住就去到呢個760 頁,你會見到一個嘅第10 個項目就係「完工後簽 3 發消防證書FS251」,係咪? 4 鄭芷盈女士:係。 5 林樂夫大律師:咁我哋睇前一頁,759,係,咁可以成頁咁睇,我哋,係。咁你見到就都冇 6 其--即係一啲不同嘅項目,就除咗FS251 之外就冇SDN 嘅,冇SDN 呢個項目 7 嘅,你同唔同意? 8 鄭芷盈女士:同意。 9 林樂夫大律師:咁我哋對比下就係同一個資料夾,R1 嘅第1 頁,中華發展報畀宏業嗰度, 10 我哋可以放大少少睇,你會睇到第三個項目就都係入FS251,而呢個係特別為消防 11 水缸完工之後嘅251 報價,係咪? 12 鄭芷盈女士:係。 13 林樂夫大律師:咁另外特別嘞,就係喺第二個項目就會申報以上大廈樓宇消防裝置因工程關 14 閉通知書,咁有一個報價嘅,係咪? 15 鄭芷盈女士:唔。 16 林樂夫大律師:咁即係對比番Victory Fire 嘅報價,即係執修,有關年檢執修有關嘅項 17 目,其實就係你本人又或者係你公司,其實都冇預計過Victory Fire 會入任何 18 SDN,係咪? 19 鄭芷盈女士:唔係。 20 林樂夫大律師:「唔係」即係咩嘢意思? 21 鄭芷盈女士:因為我相信佢哋做執修都係需要入呢一張SDN。 22 林樂夫大律師:你呢個「相信」係邊度嚟㗎? 23 鄭芷盈女士:即係以我知道佢哋以往嘅做法都會有囉。 24 林樂夫大律師:以往嘅做法都有。 25 鄭芷盈女士:唔。 26 林樂夫大律師:但係你喺出報價同埋制訂合約都冇呢個項目喎,同唔同意? 27 鄭芷盈女士:同意。 28 林樂夫大律師:咁跟住我哋就去番有一啲事項,你同黃生嘅講法有少少唔同嗰一個議題,咁 29 我哋可以--麻煩睇一睇你嘅警察口供嘅,C1-2/1220 第7 段,你喺個警察口供嗰 30 度,就話「2025 年11 月份,其實就係同Victory Fire 嘅黃生有個對話嘅」 31 係咪? 32 鄭芷盈女士:係。 33 林樂夫大律師:咁因為當時就冇講個日子,你話確實日子唔記得,而家我想確認下,就你同 34 唔同意係2025 年嘅11 月19 日,你同黃生有個對話? 35 鄭芷盈女士:我唔記得咗個日子,但係如果你話黃生係嗰個日刺,咁有機會係嗰一日囉。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第八天

61 本謄本由Epiq 編製 林樂夫大律師:咁係親身面對面同黃生傾㗎嘛,係咪? 1 鄭芷盈女士:係。 2 林樂夫大律師:傾咗幾耐? 3 鄭芷盈女士:好少時間咋喎。 4 林樂夫大律師:有冇--黃生就話五至十分鐘,有冇? 5 鄭芷盈女士:冇。 6 林樂夫大律師:冇。咁你嘅講法就話,黃生就親自嚟搵你,第二句,你見到。咁就查詢是否 7 有消防工程進行中,係咪? 8 鄭芷盈女士:係。 9 林樂夫大律師:咁你會唔會覺得--當時你會唔會覺得奇怪,一個消防承辦商嘅人員執修嘅時 10 候就問番你轉頭,有冇消防工程進行中,你有冇覺得係好特別嘅,呢件事? 11 鄭芷盈女士:當時冇。 12 林樂夫大律師:當時冇。咁你就話,你第三句「所以我就回答Victory 人員有做緊工 13 程」,咁你其實答佢就話做緊工程,係咪都係做緊消防工程有關嘅嘢? 14 鄭芷盈女士:係,因為我就係知道當時嗰個消防缸都係做緊,所以佢嚟問我,咁我就--係 15 囉,就答佢有做緊工程囉。 16 林樂夫大律師:咁喺當刻,你知道有掛咗牌㗎嘛,係咪?即係有SDN㗎嘛? 17 鄭芷盈女士:當刻我知道有。 18 林樂夫大律師:咁其實你哋嘅對話當中係有傾過,即係我哋嘅講法就係有傾過係關於SDN 嘅 19 嘢,係咪? 20 鄭芷盈女士:冇傾過。 21 林樂夫大律師:跟住你就話「我印象中冇人通知過管理處會關閉消防系統總掣」,你嘅印象 22 中「冇人通知」係你唔記得定係點?即係定係肯定冇? 23 鄭芷盈女士:冇。 24 林樂夫大律師:咁我哋仲有一個--Victory Fire 仲有一個李生嘅,佢都話同你喺25 年 25 11 月19 日有傾過關於掛牌嘅事宜嘅。咁我哋基礎就--而家我--除咗李生口講之 26 外,我哋就仲有個文件嘅,咁就R2,R2,即係都係新文件,琴日嘅,993,993 27 頁。係,咁呢個我要講清楚就係李生同埋梁生自己嘅WhatsApp 紀錄嚟嘅,咁中間 28 括咗有個時間,12 點51 同埋1 點02,咁喺994 頁,咁就做咗個謄本,梁生-- 29 你可以睇一睇,「梁生就講『喂,當時看更話大廈維修嗰班要做嘢,所以閂晒啲 30 泵,佢話佢哋掛咗牌』。跟住李生就話『我知道嘞,頭先嗰個咩嘢鄭小姐覆咗我 31 嘞』」。因為呢個係喺火災之前即係嘅一個WhatsApp 嘅紀錄,咁李生佢嘅--就 32 有個咁樣嘅即係同梁生嘅講法,咁會唔會其實係你真係有同李生講過關於掛牌嘅 33 事,你唔記得咗? 34 鄭芷盈女士:我係記憶我冇同李生即係有會面過。 35 許偉強資深大律師:主席,我唔想打斷林大律師嘅問題,我淨係想補充一樣就係,當我盤問 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第八天

62 本謄本由Epiq 編製 李先生嘅時候,我特別有問咗佢關於11 月19 號佢同鄭小姐嘅交談入面,有冇問過 1 佢攞SDN,咁李生係話冇嘅,所以就呢一點,李生同黃生嘅口供係唔同嘅。 2 林樂夫大律師:係,咁就住你嘅律師,咁我都想問番就係,喺你嘅記憶入面,係咪直情冇同 3 李生有傾過任何嘢?喺2025 年11 月19 日。 4 鄭芷盈女士:係嘞。 5 林樂夫大律師:Okay,得。係,咁我諗最後一個環節就係同鍾生嘅對話,即係同鍾生傾談嘅 6 嘢。 7 鄭芷盈女士:唔。 8 林樂夫大律師:咁我哋--麻煩去睇H4/6805。係,6805 係你同鍾生嘅WhatsApp 紀錄, 9 我想睇下白色嗰啲字嘅。咁就首先就你問鍾生,「想問幾時再安排嚟做執修?」喺 10 2025 年10 月28 號,咁鍾生嘅答覆就係,我想關注其中兩句「同埋入番水未?冇 11 水都完唔到工」。你見到喇,係咪? 12 鄭芷盈女士:係。 13 林樂夫大律師:咁其實即係話喺2025 年10 月28 日,其實鍾生都已經知道係啲消防水缸 14 冇水,係咪? 15 鄭芷盈女士:我諗佢係啩。 16 林樂夫大律師:佢--咁而佢咁問你,咁你哋其實喺當時10 月28 號嘅對話,其實大家已經 17 係雙方都理解到大家講乜㗎嘛,咁就係大家都知道其實佢咁問,你之後答佢,其實 18 大家都知道當時嗰刻10 月28 號消防水缸冇水,係咪? 19 鄭芷盈女士:可以咁講嘅。 20 林樂夫大律師:咁而我哋喺聽林生,即係ISS 嘅林生講,佢係2025 年10 月8 號先返嚟入 21 職㗎嘛,係咪? 22 鄭芷盈女士:係。 23 林樂夫大律師:咁佢嘅口供就話,喺10 月16 日,就問你有關於掛牌嘅嘢,係咪? 24 鄭芷盈女士:我有聽到佢咁講。 25 林樂夫大律師:你同唔同意佢咁講? 26 鄭芷盈女士:我冇呢個印象。 27 林樂夫大律師:哦,即係你都話冇講過畀林生聽,係咪? 28 鄭芷盈女士:唔肯定,呢個。 29 林樂夫大律師:好,咁無論如何,因為我哋啱啱之前睇過啲合約、啲信件,就係你本人就係 30 關於呢個執修事項,會同Victory Fire 聯絡嘅聯絡人嚟㗎嘛,係咪? 31 鄭芷盈女士:係。 32 林樂夫大律師:咁即係喺10 月17 號,講番,2025 年10 月17,你都同意係有同鍾生有 33 個對話㗎嘛,係咪? 34 鄭芷盈女士:係。 35 林樂夫大律師:只不過內容你有個唔同嘅版本啫? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第八天

63 本謄本由Epiq 編製 鄭芷盈女士:唔。 1 林樂夫大律師:咁我哋已知幾個事實,就係10 月28 號,你同鍾生都知道係水缸冇水,消防 2 水缸冇水。咁10 月8 號林生先返番工㗎嘛? 3 鄭芷盈女士:唔。 4 林樂夫大律師:咁其實鍾生係好大機會,你同唔同意就係從你嗰度得知呢個消防缸冇水? 5 鄭芷盈女士:唔肯定真係,唔知佢會唔會有同林生有一啲聯繫,係嘞。 6 林樂夫大律師:咁唔該晒,我冇其他問題住,唔該。 7 陸啟康法官:李大律師。 8 李峰琦大律師:鄭小姐,咁就有一啲問題會... 9 孫靖乾資深大律師:主席,我想講話我都會有啲問題,不過我--唔介意我可能等李大律師問 10 完先。 11 李峰琦大律師:係,好簡短。 12 陸啟康法官:好,唔該。 13 李峰琦大律師:想你睇番G1-2,第2050 頁,呢次嘅會議係2021 年嘅一次管委會,咁你 14 都見到你係有出席嘅,係咪? 15 鄭芷盈女士:係。 16 李峰琦大律師:我想請你睇第七項議程,2053 頁,呢一度喺會上就討論咗,當時係有百分 17 之五嘅業主係希望召開業主大會,咁然後鄧主席就話向嗰位召集人就出咗封信件, 18 咁相信就係同頭先杜資深大律師畀過你睇嗰份信件喇? 19 鄭芷盈女士:唔。 20 李峰琦大律師:係。咁呢一個講法啱唔啱?就係似乎喺鄧主席收到一啲業主聯署要求召開業 21 主大會嘅時候,佢對於嗰啲簽名嗰個真確性,佢會似乎有啲額外嘅要求,同你哋一 22 般做--開業主大會收授權票嗰個做法似乎係有啲唔同喎,我呢個觀察你同唔同意? 23 鄭芷盈女士:唔可以完全同意。 24 李峰琦大律師:或者我哋再睇多第二個例子,第二個例子喺G1-1,第671 頁,呢一度,我 25 哋可以碌上一頁先嘅,咁呢個係一個有啲居民係畀民政處嘅投訴嚟嘅,咁我哋睇番 26 671 頁,咁呢度第5 段,咁就係第二次嘅情景之下,喺2024 年同樣都係有5%嘅 27 業主係話希望召開業主大會,但係呢度就似乎都係有一個投訴,就係法團主席係要 28 個召集人係要做多啲嘢去證明嗰個業主身分係咪確實,似乎呢一個做法同21 年嗰 29 個做法,鄧主席都係就住呢啲簽名嘅真確性,佢都特別做多幾步喎,呢個觀察你同 30 唔同意? 31 鄭芷盈女士:係。 32 李峰琦大律師:係,唔該晒主席,我冇其他問題。 33 陸啟康法官:唔該晒,孫大律師。 34 孫靖乾資深大律師:好。係,鄭小姐,你好。 35 鄭芷盈女士:你好。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第八天

64 本謄本由Epiq 編製 孫靖乾資深大律師:咁我淨係有一啲比較想同你澄清嘅問題就會問一問你,其他嘅大律師問 1 過你嘅問題我就唔重複嘞。 2 鄭芷盈女士:係。 3 孫靖乾資深大律師:咁首先,我就想問一問你,就係我想你睇一睇你嗰個證人供詞嘅第37 4 段嘅,咁你嘅證人供詞37,呢度你就有講過話喺嗰個大維修嘅工程進行期間,你就 5 知道宏業係另外聘用咗一間嘅註冊嘅消防裝置承辦商,我就首先想問一問你,當時 6 你係咪已經知道宏業所聘用嘅另一間嘅註冊嘅消防裝置承辦商就係叫做中華發展, 7 即係(English Spoken)? 8 鄭芷盈女士:當時唔知道。 9 孫靖乾資深大律師:當時你係唔知道嘅? 10 鄭芷盈女士:唔。 11 孫靖乾資深大律師:咁即係話你當時其實係--你係如何得知宏業係聘用咗另一間嘅註冊消防 12 裝置承辦商? 13 鄭芷盈女士:因為我哋--即係管理處同事駱小姐、黎經理,咁佢哋即係平時都會開啲工程會 14 嗰啲,咁返嚟我都有聽佢哋有講過話就住消防缸,即係掛牌嗰啲嘢咁樣。 15 孫靖乾資深大律師:明白。即係你嘅意思其實係主要如果喺即係管理處或者喺呢一個置邦去 16 處理,即係就宏業呢個大維修,有關到呢個消防裝置去申請譬如話呢一個掛牌,呢 17 啲咁嘅情況,就應該係黎經理同埋就係駱小姐佢哋就係去處理,所以你都係聽番嚟 18 嘅? 19 鄭芷盈女士:係。 20 孫靖乾資深大律師:係。咁同樣地,即係關於嗰個掛牌嗰啲文件,其實就係應該係黎經理同 21 駱小姐佢哋就會有收到或者佢哋會知,你就本身有冇睇過相關嘅文件? 22 鄭芷盈女士:當時冇睇到,但係我知駱小姐喺電腦上有(English Spoken)嘅。 23 孫靖乾資深大律師:係,喺電腦上面有(English Spoken)嘅? 24 鄭芷盈女士:唔。 25 孫靖乾資深大律師:但係嗰個電腦上面如果有(English Spoken)、有存檔嘅話,係有 26 啲咩嘢同事係可以會去即係睇得到嗰個存檔㗎,即係包唔包括你本人? 27 鄭芷盈女士:包括。 28 孫靖乾資深大律師:係,咁就同埋即係成個管理處? 29 鄭芷盈女士:唔係成個管理處,即係普通譬如你話... 30 孫靖乾資深大律師:你喇,係。 31 鄭芷盈女士:...出面控制室嗰啲同事就睇唔到。 32 孫靖乾資深大律師:係,咁不如--就你就會睇得到? 33 鄭芷盈女士:唔。 34 孫靖乾資深大律師:咁黎經理會睇得到? 35 鄭芷盈女士:係。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第八天

65 本謄本由Epiq 編製 孫靖乾資深大律師:咁跟住就駱小姐本身都會睇得到? 1 鄭芷盈女士:係。 2 孫靖乾資深大律師:咁譬如話係林先生佢睇唔睇得到㗎?即係工程主任。 3 鄭芷盈女士:林生應該睇唔到。 4 孫靖乾資深大律師:林生就應該睇唔到嘅,係。所以即係我哋亦都有聽過昨天林生佢作供嘅 5 時候,就話關於嗰個宏泰Victory Fire,佢就話係應該有一啲直情係--即係唔 6 係一個電子檔案,就係佢直情係已經係即係真係有一個打印咗出嚟,或者係即係複 7 印咗出嚟嘅檔案,佢就係喺--即係有個(English Spoken)咁擺喺嗰度嘅。咁 8 即係話關於嗰個Victory Fire 宏泰就唔係用電子方式,就係用一個真係實體嘅 9 方式就係去存檔。而關於呢一個大維修嗰個,如果呢度係有一啲其他嘅掛牌嘅文 10 件,就嗰個就係用電子方式,就唔係實體方式去存檔? 11 鄭芷盈女士:係。 12 孫靖乾資深大律師:係。但係就--咁我哋--頭先你解釋咗,林先生就唔會睇到呢一啲關於宏 13 業聘用咗另一間嘅註冊嘅消防裝置承辦商嘅一啲文件,佢就睇唔到。調番轉,咁你 14 會唔會睇到宏泰嗰啲文件㗎?即係你會唔會知道林先生將嗰啲文件係擺喺邊度? 15 鄭芷盈女士:會。 16 孫靖乾資深大律師:你就會知道嘅? 17 鄭芷盈女士:唔。 18 孫靖乾資深大律師:好。我諗我明白你--如果係咁講,因為你話你都係有嗰個電子檔案,咁 19 我都想你去睇下其中一啲嘅文件。 20 鄭芷盈女士:唔。 21 孫靖乾資深大律師:可能--首先可能我諗時間上早啲嘅,就應該係講緊呢個關於宏泰閣同埋 22 就係呢個宏志閣。咁我想麻煩,我哋睇一睇B2,首先係關於宏泰閣B2 嘅第1267 23 頁嘅。係,呢個B2,唔該,就係呢個1627。好,唔該晒。呢度我哋見到就有個消 24 防裝置嘅關閉通知書,亦即係嗰個SDN,咁呢個喺八座裏面,係其中有兩座就係呢 25 個宏泰同埋就係呢一個宏志閣喺日期上就係最早嘅,就係呢個2025 年嘅4 月7 26 號,亦即係其實都係進行咗嗰個年檢,即係由宏泰之後其實冇幾耐,即係4 月頭嘅 27 時間。我哋就會見到呢一個係由呢個中華發展工程有限公司去作出嘅一䭅SDN,呢 28 度我就想問一問你,係唔係譬如好似呢一份咁嘅文件,就應該係駱小姐收到之後, 29 就會用一個電子嘅方式存檔,就係你頭先所講? 30 鄭芷盈女士:冇錯。 31 孫靖乾資深大律師:好,我同你向下睇一睇先。可能去睇一睇--就可能再向下睇一睇,就係 32 我哋見到呢度就係會有譬如第一部分、第二部分、第三部分等等。咁第一部分嗰度 33 我哋見到就係開始關閉日期嗰個係4 月7 號,然後呢個就預計完成日期係4 月20 34 號,跟住我哋就睇到係有個承辦商嘅蓋印,就係中華發展工程有限公司。另外,你 35 見唔到右手邊就有個消防通訊中心嘅蓋印,就顯示係喺2025 年4 月7 號嘅時候佢 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第八天

66 本謄本由Epiq 編製 哋確認收到呢個文件? 1 鄭芷盈女士:見到。 2 孫靖乾資深大律師:咁即係呢個應該就係同一日嘅。 3 鄭芷盈女士:唔。 4 孫靖乾資深大律師:頭先你都講過實際上你哋管理處,包括你或者可能駱小姐,我哋喺個證 5 供都聽過,其實都知道當時佢想做嗰個嘅消防水缸嘅工程,其實個做法係諗住做好 6 咗嗰個消防水缸,即係我哋會鋪埋呢個嗰啲瓦仔或者磚,之後暫時就會將佢轉為就 7 用嚟做呢一個食水缸或者可能鹹水缸,然後跟住就再針對原本嗰個食水缸同鹹水缸 8 就進行呢個工程。 9 鄭芷盈女士:係。 10 孫靖乾資深大律師:即係當時你都已經知道係有個咁樣嘅做法或者諗法,係咪? 11 鄭芷盈女士:係。 12 孫靖乾資深大律師:如果係咁嘅話,其實即係要做呢個工程嘅原因就係頭先所講,最主要就 13 係即係想去維修嗰個食水缸同埋呢一個可能係鹹水缸,但係你就用咗個消防水缸係 14 要作為一個嘅替代,所以首先要將個消防水缸都鋪埋瓦仔,因此就係要針對消防水 15 缸係有工程。即係嗰個原因,點解要去維修或者點解要去處理消防水缸,其實係就 16 因為想針對嗰個食水同埋鹹水嗰個水缸去進行工程,呢個係唔係你當時你嘅理解 17 呢? 18 鄭芷盈女士:但係我唔清楚會唔會話有其他滲漏嗰啲都需要係維修,但係其中一個原因我知 19 道係即係話個消防缸係之後會作為食水缸,呢個我係有知道嘅。 20 孫靖乾資深大律師:呢個你知道嘅? 21 鄭芷盈女士:唔。 22 孫靖乾資深大律師:滲漏嗰個你就係唔清楚? 23 鄭芷盈女士:唔清楚,係嘞。 24 孫靖乾資深大律師:唔清楚,好。我就想你睇一睇,就係我哋如果睇多一個文件,係可能下 25 一頁嘅,呢度就都係針對番宏泰閣,就係有一個叫做消防裝置及設備嘅證書,呢個 26 亦都係所謂我哋叫做即係FS251 嘅一個表格。呢個如果你去睇一睇,我哋向下望 27 一望,我哋停一停,你會見到就係講話其實係有做過嘅一啲工作,就係關於 28 checking 嗰個(English Spoken ),即係checking 嗰個(English 29 Spoken ),即係話佢檢視嗰個消防水缸,然之後就話係有一個嘅(English 30 Spoken),有漏水。然後跟住喺第三部分,就係話嗰個損壞嘅事項,就係話因為 31 就係有嗰個(English Spoken )漏水,就係需要去(English Spoken ) 32 嘅。 33 鄭芷盈女士:唔。 34 孫靖乾資深大律師:呢度其實同樣嘅情況,我就唔喺呢度叫你睇每一份文件,其實針對嗰八 35 座大廈,其實全部都有一個相類似嘅FS251 嘅form 都係話寫住係(English 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第八天

67 本謄本由Epiq 編製 Spoken )。呢個據你嘅理解,你當時有冇睇過啲文件係發現佢有咁樣寫,寫住 1 “(English Spoken)"? 2 鄭芷盈女士:當時冇睇到。 3 孫靖乾資深大律師:當時你冇睇到? 4 鄭芷盈女士:唔。 5 孫靖乾資深大律師:即係你係喺火災之前,其實雖然喺個電子檔案度,其實你印象中,你就 6 冇睇過呢啲文--你冇打開嚟睇嘅? 7 鄭芷盈女士:呢一份冇睇過。 8 孫靖乾資深大律師:係,明白。但係如果當時因為你知道其實佢嗰個工程嗰個原因,其實如 9 果咁樣寫話係(English Spoken),呢個會唔會其實係即係唔係好準確或者未 10 必係正確呢?定係你會唔清楚? 11 鄭芷盈女士:評論唔到呢個。 12 孫靖乾資深大律師:評論唔到呢度,唔緊要。咁我想喺呢度再睇多一樣嘢,就係譬如話好似 13 呢個文件咁,我哋睇一睇--我哋可能睇番上去上面,上面我哋見到係有一個時間係 14 2025 年嘅10 月3 號,即係喺左上邊,你見到有個日期。然之後我哋又再向呢個 15 表格嘅最下面嗰度睇一睇,個表格嘅最下面我哋睇到佢呢度寫嘅話,個日期就係 16 2025 年4 月7 號,見唔見到? 17 鄭芷盈女士:見到。 18 孫靖乾資深大律師:咁但係實際上嚟講,如果我哋睇番--呢個係其中一個,即係我哋見到個 19 日期。或者我同你睇另一個係可能會清楚少少嘅,我哋譬如睇一睇係呢個宏志閣, 20 嗰個就喺B2/1759。B2/1759 就見到宏志閣嗰個消防裝置嘅關閉通知書,咁都係 21 4 月7 號。如果我哋去下一頁1760,1760 我哋亦都會睇到左上方就係有一個日 22 期,就係2025 年10 月3 號。然之後我哋亦都去下面嗰度睇一睇,同樣地,我哋 23 見到就係嗰個日期,其實個表格係2025 年4 月7 號。 24 鄭芷盈女士:係。 25 孫靖乾資深大律師:我嘅理解就係最上面嗰個日期其實就係--應該係佢哋真係將嗰個表格就 26 係發送畀呢個消防處嘅時候嗰個時間,係去到2025 年10 月3 號,呢個我想問你 27 會唔會有記憶相關呢啲FS251 嘅表格?雖然嗰䭅SDN 係喺4 月份嘅時候發出,但 28 係我哋呢度睇到就FSD,即係消防處嚟講,佢哋係喺10 月份嘅時候先至收到嗰個 29 有關一啲嘅FS251。你哋會唔會--你會唔會知道如果係管理處嚟講,針對呢一張 30 FS251,係乜嘢時間收到呢?雖然表面上個日期係寫住4 月7 號嘅都係,但係你哋 31 會都係喺4 月7 號或者當時4 月嘅時候收到,定係好似消防處係去到10 月份嘅時 32 候先收到嘅呢? 33 鄭芷盈女士:呢個我唔清楚。 34 孫靖乾資深大律師:呢個你唔清楚? 35 鄭芷盈女士:唔。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第八天

68 本謄本由Epiq 編製 孫靖乾資深大律師:即係如果係一定要問,就可能都係要問番邊一位同事先會知道? 1 鄭芷盈女士:黎生或者駱小姐。 2 孫靖乾資深大律師:黎生或者駱小姐? 3 鄭芷盈女士:唔。 4 孫靖乾資深大律師:好,我仲有少少,仲有幾個問題想問一問番你嘅。站在你作為嗰個管理 5 處嘅經理嘅角度--即係主任嘅角度,唔好意思。咁你當時都知道其實佢哋係打算做 6 嗰個工程時候係會有一個步驟,係做完咗消防水缸之後,仲要將佢用做做呢一個嘅 7 臨時食水缸,仲有一段工程。所以你係唔係都應該都預計到,如果係咁嘅成個消防 8 水缸嗰個工程,以致相關消防裝置嘅關閉係要維持一個都頗長嘅時間? 9 鄭芷盈女士:係。 10 孫靖乾資深大律師:呢樣嘢當時無論你或者其他同事,即係有冇因為咁樣樣覺得係有問題或 11 者係擔心嘅呢? 12 鄭芷盈女士:冇特別去諗呢樣嘢。 13 孫靖乾資深大律師:咁應該都係冇去譬如問過宏泰,就冇喇? 14 鄭芷盈女士:問...(聽不清) 15 孫靖乾資深大律師:即係譬如去諮詢下宏泰會唔會--對呢方面有有意見,就應該冇問過? 16 鄭芷盈女士:呢個冇。 17 孫靖乾資深大律師:咁有冇特別記憶,有冇係譬如話喺一啲嘅居民會議或者係一啲嘅工程會 18 議,係特別同啲居民解釋過,如果咁樣做會係令到嗰個消防裝置可能係要關閉幾個 19 月,甚至乎一年以上呢? 20 鄭芷盈女士:工程會好似係有呢個紀錄,我記得。 21 孫靖乾資深大律師:即係呢個你記得好似係有? 22 鄭芷盈女士:唔。 23 孫靖乾資深大律師:唔緊要,如果我哋需要,我哋自己翻查番。你有冇出席嗰個工程會議? 24 鄭芷盈女士:冇。 25 孫靖乾資深大律師:你冇嘅。頭先你就話你唔清楚會唔會係即係有可能--除咗係頭先嗰個做 26 法,會唔會係有一個漏水,但係你講嗰個漏水,你講嘅第一,係關於個消防水缸本 27 身嘅漏水,定係話係有人投訴,譬如話31 樓話投訴係有呢個滲水嘅情況,係邊一 28 個--邊一種? 29 鄭芷盈女士:即係係水缸漏水。 30 孫靖乾資深大律師:水缸漏水,咁呢個我想問你有冇收到任何嘅投訴或者係有人去匯報過話 31 發現嗰個消防水缸漏水,定係你純粹唔清楚個情況? 32 鄭芷盈女士:如果你話投訴消防水缸漏水我就冇嘅,但係31 樓嘅天花有滲漏呢個係有嘅。 33 孫靖乾資深大律師:明白,唔該晒。好,我最後可能就問多你一個問題,就係喺你證人供詞 34 裏面,我就想你睇一睇第62 段,應該係WS2/1271 頁,喺第--或者其實我諗可 35 能容易啲,我哋首先睇咗第60 段先,都係上面呢一頁,咁你就喺呢度講到2025 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第八天

69 本謄本由Epiq 編製 年嘅年度嘅檢查,宏泰發現有部分嘅消防裝置存在損壞。我哋跟住去到1271 頁, 1 就繼續睇到就係話,你理解大約喺2025 年7 月至到8 月期間,消防處亦都有喺宏 2 福苑做過巡查,有提過嗰啲損壞係應該儘快跟進嘅。咁我哋再睇埋第62 段,第62 3 段你就話原本宏泰係打算喺2025 年11 月展開修復工程,但係去到大約喺2025 4 年7 月同埋8 月期間,消防處係提過應該儘快跟進年檢嘅時候查出嘅損壞,咁所以 5 你就係希望佢哋可以係即係提早去開始嗰個工程。 6 鄭芷盈女士:係。 7 孫靖乾資深大律師:呢度我就想問一問就兩樣嘢先,第一,就係你確認係當時喺7 月、8 月 8 嘅時候,消防處係有針對一啲年檢裏面發現嘅問題,就要求即係宏福苑你哋係儘快 9 去將嗰啲有問題嘅消防裝置就去將佢即係修理番好? 10 鄭芷盈女士:係。 11 孫靖乾資深大律師:係,呢個你理解係係都係即係因為牽涉到一個消防裝置,所以都係儘量 12 應該要提早、及早就係將--有問題嘅話,就要儘早係要即係將佢修復? 13 鄭芷盈女士:係,冇錯。 14 孫靖乾資深大律師:我就想問有冇啲咩嘢原因係7 月到8 月嘅時候,如果消防處都已經跟進 15 嘅時候,咁結果都係好似去到後期10 月份嘅時候先至係搵呢個宏泰或者係去做嗰 16 個招標呢?即係點解唔會喺7 月、8 月嘅時候就開始做呢樣嘢呢? 17 鄭芷盈女士:我唔記得咗呢個招標係幾時做嘅,但係就已經--我記係即係招標,跟住又再回 18 標,跟住要做分析,跟住再喺會上面通過,即係亦都需要一段時間。 19 孫靖乾資深大律師:即係所以你嘅記憶,就係可能消防處去跟,但係就用咗啲時間,即係可 20 能要做一個流程,咁所以就去到10 月份,咁然之後跟住你就又再同宏泰去睇下佢 21 哋可唔可以提早去做嗰個工程? 22 鄭芷盈女士:係,10 月份過咗會,我就有即刻通知佢哋嘅。 23 孫靖乾資深大律師:好,請你等一等。係,主席同埋兩位委員,我就冇其他問題,不過我純 24 粹就留意到有一啲嘅文件,就係頭先我哋午休嘅時候就我哋收到,所以坦白講就真 25 係未有時間好詳細去睇,即係如果真係需要嘅話--我希望就唔需要,但係如果需要 26 嘅話,咁可能我哋就再即係睇下點樣樣去處理,係嘞。 27 陸啟康法官:我哋呢幾日假期,對於我哋嚟講都係工作日嚟嘅,你有咩嘢事你就通知對方睇 28 下點樣去處理,好唔好? 29 孫靖乾資深大律師:唔該主席,唔該晒兩位委員。 30 陸啟康法官:許大律師,你會唔會有好長嘅提問? 31 許偉強資深大律師:我好短㗎咋應該。 32 陸啟康法官:好。 33 許偉強資深大律師:唔該。鄭小姐,唔需要擔心,因為你今日已經喺呢度好耐時間,我會儘 34 量儘快完成你嘅作供嘅。就住剛才代表政府大律師問你嘅問題,有關--我哋而家睇 35 緊呢一頁,即係你嘅證人口供嘅第60 段,你有講過就係話,你理解大約喺2025 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第八天

70 本謄本由Epiq 編製 年7 月或者8 月期間,消防處亦都係有喺宏福苑做過一啲巡查嘅,咁就並亦都有提 1 到一啲損壞,就應該要儘快跟進咁樣。你有冇留意過佢哋做嗰啲巡查嗰個地方或者 2 覆蓋嘅範圍係啲乜嘢,你清唔清楚? 3 鄭芷盈女士:記得有一次佢係巡查係宏泰閣嘅。 4 許偉強資深大律師:明白。 5 鄭芷盈女士:係。 6 許偉強資深大律師:就住邊啲地方佢哋作巡查,你知唔知道? 7 鄭芷盈女士:唔知道,因為佢哋--即係我哋本身都話想同佢一齊上去嘅,但係佢就話佢哋自 8 己去睇就得咁樣。 9 許偉強資深大律師:明白。有冇特別話同你講過話佢哋會睇啲咩嘢地方,有冇同你講? 10 鄭芷盈女士:佢話會就住即係年檢嗰個FS251 嗰度嗰啲損壞去睇番。 11 許偉強資深大律師:明白,好,唔該晒。另外,就係如果我可以帶番你睇一睇今朝早,我哋 12 有討論過幾個問題嘅。 13 鄭芷盈女士:唔。 14 許偉強資深大律師:就係首先就住我今朝有問過你,而杜大律師亦都好清晰地再問過你個問 15 題,就有關你同鍾先生喺10 月17 號,2025 年10 月17 號嗰個電話會談,我哋 16 見到根據啲電話紀錄,嗰個會談應該係維持咗1 分08 秒,記得嘛? 17 鄭芷盈女士:記得。 18 許偉強資深大律師:杜大律師喺問你問題嗰陣時,亦都好清晰地再問多你一次,就係你記唔 19 記得喺嗰個交談裏面嘅實際內容,咁你亦都好公允地答咗你唔記得即係實際可能嗰 20 個內容係乜嘢? 21 鄭芷盈女士:係,冇錯。 22 許偉強資深大律師:但係今朝你作供嘅時候亦都有提過,就係話就住鍾先生有冇問過你去攞 23 呢個SDN 呢樣嘢,你嘅證供就係話應該喺火災發生之前就冇問你攞過嘅,記得嘛? 24 鄭芷盈女士:記得。 25 許偉強資深大律師:所以如果我哋睇番而家呢個2025 年10 月17 號呢個電話交談,我好 26 明白對於成個交談嘅內容你唔記得清楚,但係如果問你就係話,如果係2025 年10 27 月17 號呢個交談,會唔會有提及過就係話鍾先生問你攞SDN 嘅,你嘅回應你會係 28 乜嘢? 29 鄭芷盈女士:即係我公道啲講,我真係唔記得當日嗰個電話內容嘅。 30 許偉強資深大律師:明白。 31 鄭芷盈女士:但係如果佢就住話要問我攞呢一樣嘢嘅話,其實我喺電腦就會搵到,因為我有 32 (English Spoken)㗎嘛。 33 許偉強資深大律師:明白。 34 鄭芷盈女士:其實如果係有嘅話,我相信我應該可以好快可以畀到佢, 35 許偉強資深大律師:明白,唔該晒。另外一個問題,就係亦都係今朝早杜大律師問過你,有 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第八天

71 本謄本由Epiq 編製 關置邦前嗰個前僱員就係黃志德先生嘅。 1 鄭芷盈女士:係。 2 許偉強資深大律師:咁就你都知道佢喺某啲途徑都係對嗰個管理公司嗰度係有啲說法嘅。 3 鄭芷盈女士:係。 4 許偉強資深大律師:我知道你亦都係提交咗一份第二份嘅證人口供,亦都係對佢嘅講法作出 5 咗一啲回應。 6 鄭芷盈女士:冇錯。 7 許偉強資深大律師:我就住呢度,我想麻煩你睇一睇呢一個有關嘅口供,應該係而家有個 8 (English Spoken),應該係WS5/1815 頁,喺你呢份證人口供,如果我哋去 9 到第4 段,第4 段就講出咗黃先生幾時加入置邦、佢個職位等等。佢亦都做咗頗為 10 短嘅時間,係咪? 11 鄭芷盈女士:係,冇錯。 12 許偉強資深大律師:大概係兩個星期左右。咁你喺第5 段嗰度亦都交代咗,就係喺2025 年 13 5 月15 號佢遞交咗辭職信,佢亦都講出咗當時辭職嘅理由呢度嘅,喺你最後嗰三 14 行嗰度,亦都有交代咗就係當時黃先生口頭向你提及到佢想面試另一份更適合嘅工 15 作,因為嗰個工作嗰個地點係比較接近佢居住嘅地方。然後如果我哋睇下第10 16 段,第10 段嗰度你就住黃先生指某啲嘅指稱就作出咗回應,其中第10 段你亦都講 17 番,就係今朝早杜大律師有問過你,就係黃先生曾經有喺佢嘅供詞入面有提及過, 18 就係話佢觀察到佢個座位前面有一個約60cm 乘90cm 嘅銀色消防警報系統沒有著 19 燈,並掛上一塊寫上「掛牌」兩個字嘅紙皮咁樣,咁就控制室同埋管理處相連,本 20 人當時於管理處辦公室工作,確認就即係冇接觸過呢個有關嘅物體嘅咁樣。 21 鄭芷盈女士:係。 22 許偉強資深大律師:你都係確認番你呢個說法,係咪? 23 鄭芷盈女士:係,冇錯。 24 許偉強資深大律師:如果我哋去番第14 段,呢度亦都係杜大律師有問過你,關於黃先生有 25 冇同你提及過話佢對於工作環境會危害到佢個生命呢樣嘢,咁就佢話有兩次向上司 26 反映咗個意見,你記得杜大律師都有問過呢個問題? 27 鄭芷盈女士:係。 28 許偉強資深大律師:你呢度亦都係講出咗你自己當時即係知道嘅情況嘅。 29 鄭芷盈女士:唔。 30 許偉強資深大律師:咁之前我亦都同你睇過就係話,佢當時離職嘅時候就並冇講任何關於佢 31 個安全嗰個問題嘅。 32 鄭芷盈女士:係。 33 許偉強資深大律師:你亦都再講咗就係佢離職當時嘅原因。 34 鄭芷盈女士:冇錯。 35 許偉強資深大律師:而家喺委員你都即係維持番你而家喺呢一個第二份證人口供嗰個說法? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第八天

72 本謄本由Epiq 編製 鄭芷盈女士:係,冇錯。 1 許偉強資深大律師:最後就係關於有關一啲吸煙嘅投訴嘅問題,今朝杜大律師都有問過你, 2 你記唔記得佢有問過你就係話收到吸煙嘅投訴,咁會唔會係置邦就好似作出一個傳 3 聲筒咁,將個投訴交咗去呢個宏業嗰度向佢反映咗,就係咁嘞咁樣,記得佢有咁樣 4 問過你呢個問題? 5 鄭芷盈女士:記得。 6 許偉強資深大律師:麻煩你,我都想帶你去睇一睇你嘅證人口供都有就住呢個問題作過一啲 7 嘅敘述嘅。喺你第一份嘅證人口供入面第50 段,唔該。呢度就講出咗你話管理處 8 都不時收到居民嘅投訴有關建築工人喺施工期間吸煙,如果我哋去呢一段最後四 9 行,之前你就講咗話同咗宏業反映,然後呢度你都話「同時,我同埋黎先生都會向 10 管理員作出指示,如果管理員在巡查當中留意到工人食煙,就要求工人要停止,同 11 時我理解管理員也在宏福苑的公眾位置貼上禁煙通告」咁樣。 12 鄭芷盈女士:係。 13 許偉強資深大律師:而宏業職員亦都有在棚架、外牆等個位置貼上禁煙通告--告示嘅。就住 14 你呢四行所講你哋公司作出嘅指示,喺呢方面你自己都有參與? 15 鄭芷盈女士:係,冇錯。 16 許偉強資深大律師:唔係,我冇其他問題。 17 陳健波議員:鄭小姐,我想問你一個授權書嘅問題。 18 鄭芷盈女士:係。 19 陳健波議員:因為我亦都知喺好多屋苑嗰啲重大嘅決定,即係授權票都會係一個好決定性嘅 20 影響,周時都有。 21 鄭芷盈女士:唔。 22 陳健波議員:咁毛想問你,即係係唔係宏福苑咁多年嚟你哋決定一個授權票係唔係有效,都 23 睇佢填嘅資料係唔係足夠,係咪?或者𤌭咗需要嘅資料,例如係佢邊個單位,佢個 24 業主咩嘢名,授權邊個,呢啲如果填足,你哋就當有效,係咪? 25 鄭芷盈女士:係,都會對番個業主名咁樣。 26 陳健波議員:因為簽名你哋唔對,你亦都對唔到,所以你... 27 鄭芷盈女士:冇得對。 28 陳健波議員:佢填足資料,你經常就唔會過問,當佢有效,咁就可以去投票,係咪? 29 鄭芷盈女士:係。 30 陳健波議員:我想問,因為當然你係靠嗰個叫做授權一覽表,等啲居民知道邊個用你個名攞 31 到個授權咁樣。琴日駱小姐都有講過係有人投訴話唔係佢哋授權嘅,當然後來就冇 32 辦法證明有冇報警,有冇去查。點解我問要你呢樣嘢,就係想問,就係話如果有人- 33 -甚至好多居民都投訴嗰個制度,我想問你哋管理層有冇討論過點樣去改善呢一個授 34 權票個制度呢?因為如果係對屋苑咁重大嘅影響,係咪?咁多人表達,如果有授權 35 票,又唔係一個即係好滴水不漏嘅話,就好易出問題。我而家問你哋管理處有冇討 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第八天

73 本謄本由Epiq 編製 論呢個問題,點樣改善授權票嗰個處理嘅問題? 1 鄭芷盈女士:略略都有即係談及過嘅。 2 陳健波議員:咁我就想問下一個問題,咁究竟係點樣處理,就根本係由你哋管理處決定定係 3 由業主立案法團佢哋決定嘅呢?即係譬如你要改,咁經你決定,定係你話決定都要 4 得佢同意,定係大家商量點決定呢?呢件事。 5 鄭芷盈女士:呢個(English Spoken)應該冇得改,即係民政處佢哋去訂立㗎嘛,但係 6 你話當中可能有多啲抽查,即係去核實番。 7 陳健波議員:但係你哋冇做到我相信,係咪? 8 鄭芷盈女士:特別抽查冇,都係如果有問題嗰啲就會打畀佢咁樣。 9 陳健波議員:所謂有問題佢填不足料啫,你唔係因為懷疑佢㗎嘛? 10 鄭芷盈女士:係,冇錯。 11 許偉強資深大律師:唔係話簽名有懷疑或者其他嘢原因,所以基本上係做唔到。但係我都明 12 嘅,因為政府而家都收緊咗即係授權票,但係就我諗如果未改例之前,其實個抽查 13 都係一個好嘅制度,譬如你抽到--譬如我話抽三成咁樣,咁你發覺嗰三成如果真係 14 好多錯,你就唔係抽三成,可能係四成、五成咁樣抽落去。 15 鄭芷盈女士:係,冇錯。 16 陳健波議員:即係可能呢個係一個解決嘅辦法。但係你嘅答案就係話,當時你諗過下,諗下 17 之後點樣做,後來決定點樣做? 18 鄭芷盈女士:即係冇做抽查嘅。 19 陳健波議員:即係冇同業主立案法團商討嘅? 20 鄭芷盈女士:冇。 21 陳健波議員:Okay,唔該你。 22 歐陽伯權博士:我都想有一個問題,就係同頭先陳生問個問題係相同。喺個授權票裏面,頭 23 先我聽到你哋講係話check 就check 嗰個名同埋個單位,你係check 兩樣嘢嘅 24 啫? 25 鄭芷盈女士:係,同埋睇資料咁樣。 26 歐陽伯權博士:任何人都可以寫咗單位嘅名,同埋即係幾多號、幾多樓同埋個名就係㗎嘞? 27 鄭芷盈女士:唔係,咁都要對番嗰個業主係唔係即係呢個單位一唔一樣咁樣? 28 歐陽伯權博士:你點知樣去check 嗰個係真㗎? 29 鄭芷盈女士:我哋會對(English Spoken)。 30 歐陽伯權博士:好,唔該。 31 陸啟康法官:Okay。今日有冇其他問題? 32 杜淦堃資深大律師:主席,我哋冇其他問題。 33 陸啟康法官:係唔係頭先話有啲話要處理關於嗰啲... 34 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,主席,個新文件衍生嘅問題似乎唔係關鄭小姐事嘅,所以我哋冇其 35 他問題問佢。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第八天

74 本謄本由Epiq 編製 陸啟康法官:Okay。鄭小姐,你可以離開,唔該你。 1 鄭芷盈女士:唔該。 2

3 16 時01 分置邦興業有限公司物業主任證人鄭芷盈女士作供完畢 4

5 杜淦堃資深大律師:主席,喺過去嗰一日同埋剛剛我哋收到嘅文件,大家都睇到有啲相片係 6 關於幾個水箱其實當時係唔係有水,呢個會直接影響到當時嗰個消防系統個運作, 7 所以就呢一個理由,我哋係要再次傳召鍾傑文先生,而可能我哋有問題係會問唐慶 8 麟先生嘅,就呢一方面我同代表佢哋嘅林大律師商討過,因為我都畀咗(English 9 Spoken)佢話我哋會就呢方面有啲問題,而佢亦都提到因為之前你都記得,就嗰 10 五十七分鐘嘅對話,佢哋有一份補充嘅供詞,咁呢一個相信今日即係就嚟會畀到大 11 家,再者我個理解就係就嗰今日證據裏面提到一啲嘅電話紀錄,可能佢哋都會有補 12 充,所以我哋都想畀啲時間佢哋。所以而家嘅安排可能就係下個禮拜返嚟,我哋處 13 理咗Victory Fire 剩餘嘅問題,跟住我哋就會去到下一個證人。 14 陸啟康法官:好,有冇其他嘢需要處理?咁我諗呢段時間,你哋仲可以喺假期嗰陣時就大家 15 聯絡應該點樣處理,好唔好?我哋會下個星期三繼續,咁呢個假期我哋一定工作快 16 樂。 17

18 16 時03 分聆訊押後 19 (聆訊將於2026 年4 月8 日10 時00 分繼續) 20

FD06248 | 2025_港澳台_香港宏福苑大火_Transcript-(Chinese)_20260408.pdf

分类:06_境外及港澳台调查报告 | 年份:2025 | 地域:香港 | 严重程度: | 场所: | 起火原因: | 来源格式:pdf

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第九天

本謄本由Epiq 編製

就大埔宏福苑火災成立的獨立委員會

聽證會

高等法院原訟法庭陸啟康法官 陳健波議員 歐陽伯權博士

日期:

第九天 2026 年4 月8 日

杜淦堃資深大律師, 俞匡庭大律師, 李澍桓大律師, 馮天榮大律師, 張天風大律師及李俊軒大律師代表獨立委員會

許偉強資深大律師, 何卓衡大律師及楊志聰大律師代表置邦興業有限公司

孫靖乾資深大律師, 卓元暢大律師, 陸栩然大律師及劉逸冲大律師代表政府

林樂夫大律師代表宏泰消防工程有限公司

律政司代表

呂世杰資深大律師及阮文躍大律師代表市區重建局

關有禮大律師及陳熾龍大律師代表梁秉基

競爭事務委員會代表

合安管理有限公司代表

劉晉安大律師代表宏福苑居民

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第九天

1 本謄本由Epiq 編製

以下內容乃聆訊數碼錄音謄本 1

2 10 時00 分聆訊恢復 3

4 陸啟康法官:係,李律師。 5 李澍桓大律師:早晨,主席,今朝早第一位證人係唐慶麟先生。係,唐先生,喺你面前有一 6 個聲明詞嘅,麻煩你企起身就讀出嗰個聲明詞。 7

8 10 時01 分宏泰消防工程有限公司水喉工證人唐慶麟先生開始作供 9

10 唐慶麟先生:本人唐慶麟聲明,本人所作的證供,盡本人所知、所悉及所信,均屬真實。 11 李澍桓大律師:係,請坐。唐先生,我哋知道你係受僱於宏泰消防嘅呢間公司,係咪? 12 唐慶麟先生:唔,係。 13 李澍桓大律師:咁你嘅職位就係一個水喉工? 14 唐慶麟先生:係。 15 李澍桓大律師:根據你提供畀我哋嘅資料,你就喺2015 年加入宏泰消防嘅,係咪? 16 唐慶麟先生:係。 17 李澍桓大律師:就住今次宏福苑大火嘅呢個調查,你就首先喺12 月份嘅時候,應該就向警 18 方提供咗一份證人口供。 19 唐慶麟先生:冇錯。 20 李澍桓大律師:記唔記得? 21 唐慶麟先生:記得。 22 李澍桓大律師:亦都隨後呢,你向呢一個委員會就透過律師都做咗另外嘅一份證人陳述書 23 嘅,係咪? 24 唐慶麟先生:係。 25 李澍桓大律師:我相信兩份口供入面所講嘅嘢,你都係相信真實咁先至講出嚟㗎喇,係咪? 26 唐慶麟先生:係。 27 李澍桓大律師:由於你2015 年已經加入宏泰消防,我哋亦都知道宏泰消防大概喺2016 年 28 開始呢,其實就幫宏福苑做--起碼做嘅年檢工作,呢個你有冇喺2025 年之前參與 29 過關於宏福苑嘅一啲年檢或者修理嘅工作? 30 唐慶麟先生:有。 31 李澍桓大律師:你最先接觸宏福苑係幾時呀? 32 唐慶麟先生:應該入公司冇耐就已經有㗎嘞。 33 李澍桓大律師:係,咁即係有機會可能2016 年開始就有接觸宏福苑嗰個消防裝備嘅年檢工 34

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第九天

2 本謄本由Epiq 編製 作? 1 唐慶麟先生:係,維修工作。 2 李澍桓大律師:維修。 3 唐慶麟先生:唔。 4 李澍桓大律師:年檢就唔係你去做嘅,係咪呀? 5 唐慶麟先生:唔係。 6 李澍桓大律師:但係如果年檢完之後,有嘢要執修,關於水喉嗰部分嘅嘢呢,就你會去同你 7 嘅同事一齊去做,係咪呀? 8 唐慶麟先生:冇錯。 9 李澍桓大律師:喺2025 年10 月16 號同17 號,我哋知道就係你同另外一位全職嘅水喉工 10 叫唐小明先生,同埋一個兼職嘅水喉工蔡金龍先生就去咗宏福苑做年檢之後嘅一啲 11 執修工作嘅,係咪? 12 唐慶麟先生:係。 13 李澍桓大律師:我想先講2025 年10 月16 號,即係你哋第一日水喉工落去做工程嗰個情 14 況,我相信由於你哋因為要落去其中一個處理嘅執修工程就係要嗰啲換喉轆嘅噴 15 嘴,係咪? 16 唐慶麟先生:係。 17 李澍桓大律師:所以第一樣嘢要做就係先要上去天面嗰個消防缸,就要閂咗供水掣先,係 18 咪? 19 唐慶麟先生:係。 20 李澍桓大律師:呢一部分以我睇到嘅呢,就係由你親自上去A、B、C 嗰三座嗰個天面度閂嗰 21 個水掣嘅,係咪? 22 唐慶麟先生:閂係兼職蔡金龍先生去。 23 李澍桓大律師:蔡先生閂嘅? 24 唐慶麟先生:唔,係。 25 李澍桓大律師:如果係咁,我想你睇番有一份你畀警方嘅口供,喺第189 頁嗰度。 26 陸啟康法官:邊個資料夾? 27 李澍桓大律師:呢個係R1。 28 陸啟康法官:R1,唔該。 29 李澍桓大律師:如果你睇第5 段「10 月16 日上午10 點,你同兼職嘅水喉工蔡金龍同埋阿 30 唐先生就去咗宏福苑工作」,你哋--如果跳過幾行,「就工程開始嘅時候,你就會 31 先到座頭借天台鎖匙,但係由於天台--座頭就話天台有工程,所以天台冇鎖,唔需 32 要借鎖匙嘞」。然之後你呢度講呢就話,你就到天台關閉消防水缸嘅出水閘掣,個 33 原因就係以避免更換消防水喉轆閘掣嗰陣時會有大量嘅水湧出,而你上到去嘅時 34 候,當時個閘掣係開住嘅。 35 唐慶麟先生:唔。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第九天

3 本謄本由Epiq 編製 李澍桓大律師:呢個就係你12 月份提供畀警方嘅口供嚟嘅? 1 唐慶麟先生:唔。 2 李澍桓大律師:你再睇番呢段嘢嘞,你頭先就話唔係你上去閂個水掣嘅?咁睇埋呢一份口 3 供,你而家記唔記得究竟係你吖,定係蔡先生去閂個水掣? 4 唐慶麟先生:係我。 5 李澍桓大律師:係你喇嘛? 6 唐慶麟先生:唔。 7 李澍桓大律師:嗄。我哋知道宏仁、宏道、宏新其實就係A、B、C 三座,係咪? 8 唐慶麟先生:唔,冇錯。 9 李澍桓大律師:所以我頭先個問題就係呢三座嗰個天面水缸都係由你上去閂嘅,係咪呀? 10 唐慶麟先生:係。 11 李澍桓大律師:但係你就講話你閂嘅時候,你就冇特意去檢查個水缸有冇水嘅? 12 唐慶麟先生:係。 13 李澍桓大律師:喺呢度停一停,我想問喺2025 年10 月之前,喺可能24 年、23 年或者再 14 早啲嘅時間,你有冇接觸過水缸,即係宏福苑天面嘅水缸㗎? 15 唐慶麟先生:有。 16 李澍桓大律師:我嘅意思係有冇睇過嗰啲水缸?有冇機會因為工作而要睇個水缸入面㗎? 17 唐慶麟先生:會,有㗎。 18 李澍桓大律師:喺2025 年10 月之前嘅嗰啲工作入面,以你所記得,當時個水缸嗰個內壁 19 係用乜嘢建造㗎? 20 唐慶麟先生:普通一浸石屎。 21 李澍桓大律師:普通一浸石屎? 22 唐慶麟先生:係。 23 李澍桓大律師:即係冇鋪磚嘅? 24 唐慶麟先生:冇嘅。 25 李澍桓大律師:如果我哋繼續留喺呢一份警察嘅供詞,其實我可能幫助到長官嘅,咁因為跟 26 住你做完之後,你就要嘗試試嗰啲換咗嘅部件㗎嘛,係咪? 27 唐慶麟先生:係。 28 李澍桓大律師:所以你呢度想講呢,今次就係叫番蔡先生去開番個水掣? 29 唐慶麟先生:係。 30 李澍桓大律師:而呢度我哋亦都見到你喺個口供入面就有講,你話「蔡金龍到咗每座嘅天台 31 打開個消防水缸嘅出水閘掣,讓我進行測試,但我未見消防喉有水出,所以 32 我...」即係阿唐生你呢,「...就再去到宏仁閣、宏道閣同埋宏新閣嘅天台檢查 33 消防水缸以及消防水缸嘅出水閘掣,期間發現上述三座嘅消防水缸內冇水,缸內應 34 該曾進行鋪磚工程。」首先我想搞清楚,即係話你上去唔係淨係睇個閘掣嘞,你發 35 覺冇水之後呢,你自己親自去過呢三座,揭開過個水缸,睇過入面有冇水,係咪? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第九天

4 本謄本由Epiq 編製 唐慶麟先生:係。 1 李澍桓大律師:我想搞清楚,當我哋講「冇水」,係完全個水缸你當時睇到係咩嘢狀態?係 2 完全一滴水都冇吖?定還是係半滿吖?係咩嘢情況㗎? 3 唐慶麟先生:一滴水都冇。 4 李澍桓大律師:當你講話似乎嗰度應該曾經進行鋪磚工程,點解你會有個咁樣嘅講法? 5 唐慶麟先生:因為佢入面啲磚就全新嘅,甚至有一個缸係會有啲工具喺度。 6 李澍桓大律師:係,乜嘢工具呀? 7 唐慶麟先生:有個桶裝住鎚仔呀嗰啲嘢。 8 李澍桓大律師:係,即係你10 月16 號你睇嗰三座水缸嘅時候呢,天面嗰三個水缸喇,係咪 9 三個都已經做咗鋪磚嘅工程? 10 唐慶麟先生:係。 11 李澍桓大律師:當然你就嘗試--或者我諗你都有檢查埋嗰個出水閘掣喇? 12 唐慶麟先生:係。 13 李澍桓大律師:我相信就算打開都冇用喇,因為個水缸入面冇水,係咪? 14 唐慶麟先生:係。 15 李澍桓大律師:但係我哋知道個水缸一般嘅情況呢,其實當個水缸冇水嘅時候,個上水泵應 16 該係會注滿番個水缸㗎嘛,因為成個上水泵同埋個消防缸同埋個喉轆個運作係一套 17 㗎嘛,係咪?正常情況之下。 18 唐慶麟先生:係,唔。 19 李澍桓大律師:當你見到上面有三個水缸都水水,我可唔可以理解你亦都睇唔到佢有自動注 20 水嘅運作喺度喇,係咪? 21 唐慶麟先生:呢層我冇去跟進。 22 李澍桓大律師:係,你冇去跟進,即係話你冇落番個泵房度睇下個上水泵係咪閂咗,定係壞 23 咗,定係咩嘢情況? 24 唐慶麟先生:冇睇到。 25 李澍桓大律師:唔。你再講落去你就話「之後,我向宏福苑工程嘅主管林先生」。 26 唐慶麟先生:係。 27 李澍桓大律師:我相信就係林文欣先生,我哋而家知道。 28 唐慶麟先生:係。 29 李澍桓大律師:你當時知唔知佢全名㗎? 30 唐慶麟先生:唔清楚。 31 李澍桓大律師:但係你知唔知佢就係工程嘅主任或者主管㗎? 32 唐慶麟先生:知道。 33 李澍桓大律師:你之前有冇接觸過佢㗎?喺其他嘅工程入面,即係25 年之前? 34 唐慶麟先生:冇。 35 李澍桓大律師:冇。25 年10 月係你第一次接觸佢? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第九天

5 本謄本由Epiq 編製 唐慶麟先生:係。 1 李澍桓大律師:可唔可以講多少少你係點樣行入去搵到呢個人? 2 唐慶麟先生:首先我去管理處喇,... 3 李澍桓大律師:係。 4 唐慶麟先生:...嗰陣時搵管理員去搵呢個林經理,就諗住同佢問番點解個水缸冇水呀? 5 李澍桓大律師:係。 6 唐慶麟先生:係,就係咁樣。 7 李澍桓大律師:係。係你入去直接搵林經理定係你搵咗其他人? 8 唐慶麟先生:搵咗個保安員去通知佢。 9 李澍桓大律師:保安員,係,通知佢,跟住林主任就出嚟,你就問佢? 10 唐慶麟先生:係。 11 李澍桓大律師:佢就話水缸冇水? 12 唐慶麟先生:係。 13 李澍桓大律師:佢有冇解釋畀你知點解水缸冇水? 14 唐慶麟先生:佢就話消防水缸進行執修,所以就冇水。 15 李澍桓大律師:係,佢純粹就咁講話執修,定還是有講其他嘅原因要做啲咩嘢工程,有冇再 16 進一步講? 17 唐慶麟先生:哦,咁呢層冇問嘞我。 18 李澍桓大律師:係,講番你上天台嗰三個水缸,即係當你原本想做測試,測試唔到,你自己 19 親自上去睇。睇下我個理解啱唔啱,個水缸就應該有一個出水喉喇,就係如果你放 20 水嘅時候嗰條喉就放啲水出嚟嘅,係咪? 21 唐慶麟先生:出水喉係...? 22 李澍桓大律師:即係排水,放水嘅一條喉,係咪有個咁樣㗎? 23 唐慶麟先生:放水,其實我唔知喺邊度呀呢個。我淨係... 24 李澍桓大律師:係。 25 唐慶麟先生:係呀。 26 李澍桓大律師:我哋知道你哋嘅老闆就係鍾先生。 27 唐慶麟先生:係。 28 李澍桓大律師:喺你落去宏福苑即係都做過唔止一次嘅執修工作喇。 29 唐慶麟先生:唔,唔。 30 李澍桓大律師:你亦都講過之前都有接觸要做水缸方面嘅嘢,有冇任何人其實帶過你去或者 31 解釋過畀你知成套喉轆個運作係點樣㗎? 32 唐慶麟先生:大概知道。 33 李澍桓大律師:我個問題係有冇人正式,好似一個譬如入職訓練咁,因為你做水喉啫,你唔 34 係一個消防--原本你唔係一個消防嘅註冊承辦商嚟㗎嘛,係咪? 35 唐慶麟先生:係。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第九天

6 本謄本由Epiq 編製 李澍桓大律師:有冇喺你入職嘅時候有一啲訓練話畀你知,一般嚟講譬如個消防裝置有啲乜 1 嘢嘢係牽涉到水喉,點樣運作? 2 唐慶麟先生:有。 3 李澍桓大律師:就住天面嘅消防水缸係咪都有呢方面嘅訓練呀? 4 唐慶麟先生:有。 5 李澍桓大律師:如果有嘅話,可唔可以話到畀我知,我哋知道上水嘅話呢,就會喺個上水泵 6 度入個水缸喇。 7 唐慶麟先生:係。 8 李澍桓大律師:個水缸入面有一個所謂叫做「豬膽掣」,即係嗰個浮波,係咪? 9 唐慶麟先生:係。 10 李澍桓大律師:咁除此之外,個水缸仲有啲乜嘢嘢㗎? 11 唐慶麟先生:出水閘掣、放水閘掣。 12 李澍桓大律師:出水閘製,呢個就係連接個喉轆嗰個系統喇,係咪? 13 唐慶麟先生:係。 14 李澍桓大律師:如果我要放--假設我真係要維修個水缸,我要放清咗入面啲水嘅。 15 唐慶麟先生:係。 16 李澍桓大律師:咁我點樣去放呢啲水㗎其實? 17 唐慶麟先生:會另外有個放水閘掣嘅。 18 李澍桓大律師:所以我頭先就問,應該仲有條放水嘅喉㗎嘛,係咪呀? 19 唐慶麟先生:係。 20 李澍桓大律師:咁要打開嗰個喉先至放到啲金㗎嘛? 21 唐慶麟先生:係。 22 李澍桓大律師:喺你檢查呢個水缸嘅時候,有冇發覺除咗呢個供水畀喉轆嘅嗰個喉管,即係 23 嗰個閘掣,放水--原本即係清空個缸嘅嗰個放水嘅閘掣喇,你有冇留意到有冇其他 24 嘅一啲改建,譬如可能接駁咗落去另一啲系統度呀、食水嘅系統呀、沖廁水嘅系 25 統,你有冇呢啲咁嘅留意呀? 26 唐慶麟先生:冇留意到。 27 李澍桓大律師:冇留意到,所以你唔知有冇? 28 唐慶麟先生:係。 29 李澍桓大律師:唔。第6 段我哋就見到你講及第二日,10 月17 號你就嘗試同你嘅同事去處 30 理另外剩番嗰五座,係咪? 31 唐慶麟先生:係。 32 李澍桓大律師:同樣地,我相信就係閂咗個閘掣換部件,跟住就嘗試去測試個部件,係咪? 33 唐慶麟先生:係。 34 李澍桓大律師:同樣地,就發覺開番個水掣嘅時候,其實都係測試唔到,因為冇水出,係 35 咪? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第九天

7 本謄本由Epiq 編製 唐慶麟先生:係。 1 李澍桓大律師:呢度我就首先第一樣嘢,讀呢兩段嘅供詞夾埋之後,其實喺呢兩日入面你親 2 自去檢查過個水缸有冇水嘅? 3 唐慶麟先生:係。 4 李澍桓大律師:其實就淨係得第一日16 號嘅啫,係咪? 5 唐慶麟先生:係。 6 李澍桓大律師:你淨係八座入面睇過三座? 7 唐慶麟先生:係。 8 李澍桓大律師:喺第二日,就算你發覺另外嗰五座冇水出都好,你就自己冇親自上去睇過究 9 竟個水缸發生咩嘢事嘅,係咪? 10 唐慶麟先生:係。 11 李澍桓大律師:你就純粹根據你所講,今次就似乎你連其實問都冇問嘞,因為你個講法就係 12 前一日林生已經話咗畀我知,其實八座個水缸都冇水㗎嘞,因為要做維修,係咪? 13 唐慶麟先生:係。 14 李澍桓大律師:所以你都冇再去管業處嗰度問任何人,點解呢五座冇水,係咪? 15 唐慶麟先生:係。 16 李澍桓大律師:咁其實我又有個問題唔係太明嘅,如果係咁,你17 號換完嗰五座個部件, 17 根據你所講,其實你都知道唔會有水㗎嘞。 18 唐慶麟先生:係。 19 李澍桓大律師:你仲叫蔡生上去開番個水閘掣做乜啫? 20 唐慶麟先生:穩陣起見,因為有閂咗佢,就要開番佢 21 李澍桓大律師:係,但係你知道一定試唔到㗎嘛,係咪? 22 唐慶麟先生:呢個都係工序之一嚟嘅。 23 李澍桓大律師:撇開個工序喇,但係你17 號其實你知道係一個冇意思嘅動作嚟㗎嘛,因為 24 根據你所講,前一日都已經話晒畀你知八座水缸都冇水㗎喇嘛,係咪? 25 唐慶麟先生:係。 26 李澍桓大律師:你就話喺16 號,即係第一日,亦都有同時間報告畀鍾先生聽嘅? 27 唐慶麟先生:係。 28 李澍桓大律師:鍾先生畀咗啲咩嘢指示你?即係你話咗畀佢知「喂,八座水缸都冇水喎,管 29 理處話。」咁佢同你點講? 30 唐慶麟先生:佢有叫我問林經理有冇掛牌。 31 李澍桓大律師:係,你知道掛牌嘅意思係乜㗎嘛,係咪? 32 唐慶麟先生:知道。 33 李澍桓大律師:林經理點同你講? 34 唐慶麟先生:佢話有掛牌。 35 李澍桓大律師:係,仲有呢?即係問完有冇掛牌,佢話有掛牌,咁你就走,定係點呢? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第九天

8 本謄本由Epiq 編製 唐慶麟先生:我就通知番鍾生。 1 李澍桓大律師:係,鍾生又有冇進一步嘅指示畀你? 2 唐慶麟先生:冇嘞。 3 李澍桓大律師:冇嘞。咁有冇同你講?咁因為嗰日係16 號都知道原來淨係可以換,就做唔 4 到測試㗎嘛,佢有冇畀進一步嘅指示你,叫你第二日應唔應該繼續去工作? 5 唐慶麟先生:都係繼續工作嘅。 6 李澍桓大律師:繼續工作。而同樣地17 號--17 號,第二日,你亦都係冇落過去個泵房度睇 7 下個上水泵係咪畀人閂咗,係咪? 8 唐慶麟先生:冇。 9 李澍桓大律師:唔。最後我想好快咁,因為你係其中一個有睇過個水缸嘅情況嘅,咁所以我 10 想好快畀你啲相你睇一睇,喺H6 嗰個文件冊6820 頁,我哋知道其實有啲相係影 11 咗水缸個內部,我想睇下你確唔確認得到喺當其時,10 月16 號你見到啲水缸嘅情 12 況或者之前一啲維修嘅時間,有冇見到嗰個水缸係咪咁嘅情況?6820,如果我哋接 13 納呢張牌仔上面寫嘅嘢係準確嘅話,係真實嘅話呢,呢個就似乎係影緊宏建D 座嘅 14 一個水缸嘅,喺天面嗰個水缸。我想問你喺之前,即係唔係2025 年嘞,再之前嘅 15 情況,有冇接觸過宏建嘅天面水缸? 16 唐慶麟先生:唔肯定。 17 李澍桓大律師:唔肯定,所以如果我話畀你知,即係我哋見到而家呢張相似乎好似鋪咗啲磚 18 仔,係幾時發生,你就唔會知道喇,即係變咗喺張紙--嗰個牌上面寫嘅嘢? 19 唐慶麟先生:係。 20 李澍桓大律師:後一張,6821,呢個就似乎講緊地下嗰個所謂叫做消防嘅一個運轉缸,係 21 咪? 22 唐慶麟先生:係。 23 李澍桓大律師:同樣地,你都唔會有睇過,唔會講得到呢啲瓦仔幾時出現㗎喇,係咪? 24 唐慶麟先生:係。 25 李澍桓大律師:後一張,6822,宏泰E 座天面,同樣地你講唔到10 月16 號或者17 號嘅 26 情況係點樣喇? 27 唐慶麟先生:睇唔到。 28 李澍桓大律師:如果跳去6824,似乎呢度就係宏昌天面,咁呢就寫咗「試水」咁樣嘅,唔 29 係睇得好清楚嘅,如果你揭去後一頁,6825,睇番地下嗰個,都似乎係有啲鋪咗一 30 啲磚嘅,同樣地你都講唔到10 月16 號、17 號呢個水缸嗰個情況㗎喇? 31 唐慶麟先生:係。 32 李澍桓大律師:如果係咁,我不如試下直接跳去6829,呢度如果根據張紙仔所講,就係宏 33 仁A 座,即係你10 月16 號,根據你所遘,應該係有去睇過嘅,天面嘅情況嚟 34 嘅,你記唔記得10 月16 號你話上去檢查嘅時候,個水缸係咪同而家呢度一樣㗎個 35 情況。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第九天

9 本謄本由Epiq 編製 唐慶麟先生:唔同。 1 李澍桓大律師:唔同,有乜嘢分別呀? 2 唐慶麟先生:我16 號上到去係冇水喇。 3 李澍桓大律師:係。 4 唐慶麟先生:同埋已經做咗鋪磚工程。 5 李澍桓大律師:係。 6 唐慶麟先生:呢個就咁望就冇嘅。 7 李澍桓大律師:即係而家呢張相就有個鋪磚,你睇到似乎應該做咗,係咪咁嘅意思呀? 8 唐慶麟先生:係,係。 9 李澍桓大律師:但係呢度佢講話係放水前喎,即係我--反為就係呢張相,如果你放大少少側 10 邊,其實佢似乎都仲係石屎嘅情況,係咪呀? 11 唐慶麟先生:係,係。 12 李澍桓大律師:即係其實佢未鋪磚喎? 13 唐慶麟先生:但係以我所知消防缸嘅牆壁係冇可能咁乾淨,太過白色。 14 李澍桓大律師:但係白色乾淨同鋪咗磚係兩回事嚟㗎嘛? 15 唐慶麟先生:唔。但係我16 號上去望,的而且確係已經完成咗鋪磚工程。 16 李澍桓大律師:係,咁即係話呢張紙寫住放水前11 月3 號,而我哋表面上睇落去未鋪磚 17 呢,你嘅意思就係話呢張相上面嗰個描述唔準確? 18 唐慶麟先生:係。 19 李澍桓大律師:唔,地下嗰個你就冇去睇過,係咪? 20 唐慶麟先生:係。 21 李澍桓大律師:如果我哋睇6830 頁。 22 唐慶麟先生:係。 23 李澍桓大律師:如果呢個就好明顯睇得到就係一個鋪咗磚宏仁嘅嗰個情況,係咪? 24 唐慶麟先生:係。 25 李澍桓大律師:宏道你有去睇過㗎? 26 唐慶麟先生:有。 27 李澍桓大律師:咁呢個就佢話9 月29 號似乎就已經做咗瓦仔,咁呢個喺你10 月16 號睇嘅 28 時候係咪就係一個--除咗有冇水之外,係咪就係一個鋪咗磚咁樣嘅狀況? 29 唐慶麟先生:想多碌落少少,睇唔到,呢個係第... 30 李澍桓大律師:6831 頁。 31 唐慶麟先生:係。 32 李澍桓大律師:你見到宏道R/F,即係(English Spoken)天台,瓦仔完成9 月29 號 33 養水。我聽到你嘅證供㗎嘞,你就話其實嗰時冇水嘅。咁不過,我想問個內壁嗰 34 度,係咪就好似而家相入面見到咁鋪咗瓦仔? 35 唐慶麟先生:係。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第九天

10 本謄本由Epiq 編製 李澍桓大律師:唔。6834 頁就同樣地我哋見到呢個似乎係宏新,不過係地下嗰個消防缸, 1 咁同樣地你就冇去睇過,係咪? 2 唐慶麟先生:係。 3 李澍桓大律師:除咗同物管嘅林先生你有溝通過、了解過,話整水缸維修掛牌,同物管你有 4 冇同其他人接觸過? 5 唐慶麟先生:冇。 6 李澍桓大律師:喺2025 年10 月,係咪喺嗰個年度入面,你第一次落去宏福苑做執修? 7 唐慶麟先生:印象中係。 8 李澍桓大律師:2025 年4 月你有冇落過去,或者5 月? 9 唐慶麟先生:應該冇。 10 李澍桓大律師:應該冇。如果做水缸入面有關嘅執修呢,或者一啲水管嘅維修呢,以你喺宏 11 泰消防工作咁多年以你嘅經驗除咗你之外,仲會可能有邊位同事落去做呢一個執修 12 㗎?係咪另一個水喉工定係電工? 13 唐慶麟先生:應該水喉工嘅。 14 李澍桓大律師:係,即係有陣時未必你哋兩個一齊落去做,可能一個落去做,係咪? 15 唐慶麟先生:水缸應該就唔會,必須要兩個人協助。 16 李澍桓大律師:但係你就冇印象喺25 年5 月嘅時候落去做過有關水缸或者供水系統嘅嗰個 17 執修? 18 唐慶麟先生:冇印象。 19 李澍桓大律師:唔,好。 20 主席,我冇其他問題。 21 陸啟康法官:其他涉事方? 22 許偉強資深大律師:主席,我有少少問題。 23 唐先生,剛才委員會李大律師都同你有討論過,關於2025 年10 月16 號, 24 即係你發現到嗰個消防水缸冇水嘅情況,咁你亦都係喺管理處見到管理公司林先 25 生,記得嘛? 26 唐慶麟先生:係。 27 許偉強資深大律師:係。咁就亦都喺你嘅證人口供,包括你提供畀委員會嘅證人口供,同埋 28 你畀警方嘅證人口供都有提過呢一點,就係話喺10 月16 號,你同林先生有過咁樣 29 嘅對話嘅,記得嘛? 30 唐慶麟先生:係。 31 許偉強資深大律師:你同林先生呢個對話,當時--你今日亦都係即係確認咗,就係林先生就 32 同你講咗,係由於有呢個水缸工程進行緊,所以就需要放走嗰個消防水缸嘅水呢個 33 事情,佢同你係咁講嘅,係咪? 34 唐慶麟先生:係。 35 許偉強資深大律師:咁我想問下你,就係你剛才答李大律師嘅問題嘅時候,都係話佢同你講 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第九天

11 本謄本由Epiq 編製 咗之後,你亦都冇再跟進嗰啲係咩嘢工程,工程嘅細節係點,同意嘛? 1 唐慶麟先生:係。 2 許偉強資深大律師:你剛才亦都係回答李大律師嘅問題嘅時候,亦都有提過就係話,除咗10 3 月16 號,剛才我哋傾過呢個你同林先生呢個談話之外,林先生都有同你講過掛牌 4 呢個情況嘅? 5 唐慶麟先生:係。 6 許偉強資深大律師:佢係同你講㗎嘛? 7 唐慶麟先生:係。 8 許偉強資深大律師:係。記唔記得係咪10 月16 號定係10 月17 號佢同你講掛牌呢個情 9 況? 10 唐慶麟先生:16 號。 11 許偉強資深大律師:16 號,即係同一天? 12 唐慶麟先生:係。 13 許偉強資深大律師:即係話佢同你講及有關呢個由於工程需要放走呢個消防水缸嘅水,同埋 14 呢個排牌嘅情況,係同一時間內話畀你聽嘅? 15 唐慶麟先生:係。 16 許偉強資深大律師:咁我想問下你,就係就住呢一個談話之外,你係咪冇再同林先生有任何 17 關於嗰個水缸發現嗰個問題有進行其他嘅交談? 18 唐慶麟先生:冇。 19 許偉強資深大律師:你公司例如你老闆鍾先生亦都冇指示你再同管理公司嗰邊係有任何交 20 談,關於嗰個水缸嘅事情? 21 唐慶麟先生:冇。 22 許偉強資深大律師:你公司嗰邊亦都冇指示過你就住你所講嗰個掛牌嗰啲細節,向管理公司 23 再提出任何查詢,係咪? 24 唐慶麟先生:冇。 25 許偉強資深大律師:第二個問題我想問下你,就係有關火警發生咗之後,即係11 月26 號之 26 後,因為大家都知道,火警發生嘅時候,個警鐘冇響,同埋嗰個消防喉轆係冇水 27 嘅。我想問下就係喺呢一個火警發生之後,Victory Fire 個老闆鍾先生有冇話 28 搵過你,去同你檢視一下當時你哋喺呢個宏福苑所作嘅呢啲維修工程嘅任何事項, 29 有冇同你哋傾過呢樣嘢? 30 唐慶麟先生:冇。 31 許偉強資深大律師:閣下,我冇其他問題。 32 陸啟康法官:唔該。仲有冇其他涉事方?係,孫大律師。 33 孫靖乾資深大律師:主席,我淨係有少少問題想去澄清番。 34 係,唐先生,你好。你有兩份嘅口供,一份就係同警方做嘅口供,就係而家我 35 哋喺個屏幕上面都睇得到,咁你喺你嗰個口供嘅第5 段裏面就有講過,就係你係最 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第九天

12 本謄本由Epiq 編製 後喺10 月16 號嘅時候,就係將有關嘅事情就同你嘅老闆鍾先生就係講咗,然之後 1 就係喺同一日就離開,你見到嘅,第5 段最屘嗰兩句。 2 唐慶麟先生:係。 3 孫靖乾資深大律師:咁呢度就冇特別提到嗰個問林先生關於個掛牌嘅情況,咁另外我都想同 4 你再睇多兩份文件,有一份就係你自己本身嘅嗰個證人供詞,就應該係喺嗰個 5 WS2,就係相關嗰個段落就係喺第1542 頁嘅,1542,1542,我哋睇番都係同樣 6 係第5 段,咁呢度其實都冇特別提到你同林先生佢對話嘅時候就有問到嗰個掛牌嗰 7 個情況。 8 咁最後想同你睇多個文件,我就會有個文件問一問你嘅,咁就係應該係鍾先生 9 嗰個證人供詞。咁鍾先生嘅證人供詞嗰個有關嘅部分就會係喺WS2,就係喺1529 10 頁嘅,1529 頁亦都係第5 段,就講番就係唐先生你,同埋另外唐小明同埋蔡金龍 11 佢10 月16 號去到嗰個宏福苑嘅情況,咁呢度亦都係冇提及到嗰個關於--詢問到 12 嗰個掛牌嘅情況。 13 咁或者我哋睇多一段,我哋就會見到係去到第--下一頁,1530 頁嘅下面第8 14 段,最屘嗰兩行,就係去到應該係講緊11 月19 號嘅時候,咁鍾先生就有提及就係 15 話鄭小姐,即係應該管理處嘅鄭小姐就有講過就係向消防處掛牌嘅。咁我純粹想問 16 一問你,就係因為我見你本身兩份嘅證人供詞,以致鍾先生個證人供詞就冇提及喺 17 10 月16 號嘅時候有問過林先生嗰個掛牌嘅情況,咁你會唔會可以解釋下,即係有 18 冇啲咩嘢特別嘅原因,當時喺你嗰兩份證人供詞冇提,咁而家你先至會記得呢樣 19 嘢? 20 唐慶麟先生:嗰陣時落口供冇提及過呢一樣嘢,所以就唔記得咗。 21 孫靖乾資深大律師:係,咁即係你而家係純粹即係問番起你,你就記得咁嘅意思? 22 唐慶麟先生:係。 23 孫靖乾資深大律師:好。咁唔該晒主席,我就冇其他問題。 24 陸啟康法官:其他涉事方有冇問題想問?如果冇,亦都冇覆問? 25 林樂夫大律師:冇覆問嘅,主席,係。 26 陸啟康法官:冇,冇其他問題。咁可以--唐生,你可以作供完畢,唔該晒你。 27

28 10 時34 分宏泰消防工程有限公司水喉工證人唐慶麟先生作供完畢 29 10 時34 分宏泰消防工程有限公司董事及工程師證人鍾傑文先生重召恢復作供 30

31 李澍桓大律師:主席,下一位證人係鍾傑文先生。 32 鍾先生,你記得喺上次你作供嘅時候,就有一啲議題我哋希望你可以進一步協 33 助我哋嘅。 34 鍾傑文先生:冇錯。 35 李澍桓大律師:咁就包括嗰個五十七分鐘嘅電話對話,同埋我問咗你,睇下可唔可以向我哋 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第九天

13 本謄本由Epiq 編製 提交番一啲可能係WhatsApp 嘅訊息紀錄咁樣嘅。咁有關嘅資料其實我哋從你嘅律 1 師手上我哋收到㗎嘞,咁其中亦都包括一份你再向委員會提交嘅第二份證人陳述 2 書,你記唔記得? 3 鍾傑文先生:記得。 4 李澍桓大律師:咁我相信呢份證人陳述書入面所講嘅嘢都係以你自己所知同埋相信係真實嘅 5 情況之下做出嚟,係咪? 6 鍾傑文先生:對。 7 李澍桓大律師:咁我一陣間先返轉頭同你講嗰個五十七分鐘嘅對話。 8 鍾傑文先生:好。 9 李澍桓大律師:不過我有啲--第一個議題,我都仍然係想問多你少少關於嗰個消防裝置嘅一 10 個問題。 11 鍾傑文先生:係。 12 李澍桓大律師:上一次你記得我哋就已經好詳細咁講咗喉轆、上水缸嗰個運作同埋個原理係 13 點樣,咁我呢度唔再重複。我反為想今次--因為始終,你要明白我哋需要了解點解 14 成個系統係閂咗,有冇人為嘅錯誤嘅。所以我今次我想再問多你少少,就關於嗰個 15 消防栓嗰個問題。 16 鍾傑文先生:好。 17 李澍桓大律師:好唔好?所以第一樣嘢,我想你睇R1/第194 頁,其實如果我哋睇左上角嗰 18 張相,睇下我--同樣地,睇下--為咗慳時間,我試下將我嘅理解話畀你知。 19 鍾傑文先生:好。 20 李澍桓大律師:如果你認為唔同意,又或者你有嘢要補充,就請你話畀我哋知,好唔好? 21 鍾傑文先生:好。 22 李澍桓大律師:左上角我哋見到嘅其實就有一個叫做消防入水掣,英文叫做--好似係咪叫 23 (English Spoken),係咪? 24 鍾傑文先生:冇錯。 25 李澍桓大律師:如果以我嘅理解,呢一個裝置其實就喺每一座大廈嘅地下嗰度嘅,以宏福閣 26 (原文照錄)為例。 27 鍾傑文先生:係嘅。 28 李澍桓大律師:如果我哋跳去前一頁,193,咁我哋亦都見到,雖然講緊係個公眾嘅地方, 29 但係我哋見到有兩--左下面同埋右手邊就見到有一個我哋成日喺街度見到嘅所謂一 30 個街喉、街井嘅一個設施,係咪? 31 鍾傑文先生:冇錯。 32 李澍桓大律師:我嘅理解就係成個消防栓個運作,就係如果嗰個喉轆,即係天面水缸嗰個裝 33 置,其實某程度上就係一個畀居民嘗試去火警初期自救嘅一個設施,係咪? 34 鍾傑文先生:可以咁講,消防員都會用。 35 李澍桓大律師:但係一般嚟講,就係即係如果真係個火勢太過猛烈,而要消防員入去個大廈 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第九天

14 本謄本由Epiq 編製 做灌救,做救火嘅話,其實個情況就係消防員會喺個街井度攞水,係咪? 1 鍾傑文先生:冇錯。 2 李澍桓大律師:咁佢就會駁一條喉去番我哋194 頁見到嘅嗰個消防入水掣? 3 鍾傑文先生:係。 4 李澍桓大律師:然之後如果我哋放大左上角嗰張相,我哋就見到上面有一啲按鈕同埋有個燈 5 號。 6 鍾傑文先生:係。 7 李澍桓大律師:中間我哋見到嗰個牌就寫住「消防泵運行」。 8 鍾傑文先生:冇錯。 9 李澍桓大律師:(English Spoken)我相信就話,如果佢運作緊嘅時候,就會著咗個指 10 示燈,係咪? 11 鍾傑文先生:係,如果你撳咗綠色嘅開泵掣。 12 李澍桓大律師:呢個就係我正正想講,因為呢個消防入水掣其實應該就連接住我哋所知嘅嗰 13 個消防加壓泵,係咪? 14 鍾傑文先生:係,佢哋共用。 15 李澍桓大律師:所以其實個情況就係,如果入面個消防加壓泵一般嘅情況之下,保持住一個 16 開咗備用嘅狀態嘅,係咪? 17 鍾傑文先生:係。 18 李澍桓大律師:但係一般嚟講,佢唔會自己行㗎嘛? 19 鍾傑文先生:冇錯。 20 李澍桓大律師:如果真係唔好彩,有火災嘅時候,咁消防員駁通咗呢一個消防入水掣,咁消 21 防員就會撳著呢個加壓泵,係咪? 22 鍾傑文先生:係。 23 李澍桓大律師:咁個加壓泵顧名思義就係將啲水,街井嘅嗰啲水加壓去一定嘅程度,就供應 24 全座我哋喺後樓梯見到嘅嗰個消防栓,係咪? 25 鍾傑文先生:係。 26 李澍桓大律師:所以我想第一樣嘢問嘅其實就係,佢呢一個消防栓成個系統包括個供水,其 27 實似乎都唔係嚟自天面嘅消防缸㗎嘛? 28 鍾傑文先生:咁樣,可能頭先我補充咗少少就係,街井嗰個消防栓駁條喉,係經呢個消防車 29 都有一台泵,然後再入呢個入水掣嘅通常。 30 李澍桓大律師:係。 31 鍾傑文先生:Okay,咁佢個天台個水缸就主要都係初期嘅時候用。 32 李澍桓大律師:即係天台個水缸都會供應畀消防栓嘅? 33 鍾傑文先生:冇錯,冇錯。 34 李澍桓大律師:但係嗰個加壓泵如果你唔撳著佢,其實開頭供水嘅時候,佢都係即係靠天台 35 就咁落水落嚟㗎咋嘛,係咪? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第九天

15 本謄本由Epiq 編製 鍾傑文先生:係。 1 李澍桓大律師:用地心吸力嘅原理? 2 鍾傑文先生:係。 3 李澍桓大律師:水向低流咁樣嘅情況㗎咋嘛? 4 鍾傑文先生:係。 5 李澍桓大律師:所以我--因為你記得我哋上次其實我都有問過你呢個問題,咁我而家了解多 6 咗呢個消防栓嘅運作,所以如果我要放咗天面嘅水缸,即係無論咩嘢原因都好,我 7 要放咗啲水佢,其實我係唔需要閂呢個加壓泵㗎嘛? 8 鍾傑文先生:係,所以我上次都答咗你,(English Spoken)係咁。 9 李澍桓大律師:即係當然,啲人唔識嘅,閂錯咗就另一回事? 10 鍾傑文先生:唔係,唔係,而係因為你閂咗,你個消防泵係驚佢誤鳴嘅時候,會損壞佢,有 11 兩個情況會誤鳴,第一,打爛個(English Spoken)或者有人撳呢個掣,或者 12 個線路嘅問題,當然,佢喺冇水嘅情況令到個消防泵行空泵就損壞,所以佢哋實際 13 上都會閂埋咁樣,嗄。 14 李澍桓大律師:呢個你係講緊你哋換扲手、換警鐘嘅時候點解要閂咗成個(English 15 Spoken),係咪? 16 鍾傑文先生:唔係,唔係,而係去放水嘅時候,點解啲人通常要閂埋個消防加壓泵,就係正 17 正我頭先講嗰兩個原因。 18 李澍桓大律師:但係你閂個消防--即係放水嗰度唔會整著個扲掣?又或者調番轉,扲手... 19 (聽不清) 20 鍾傑文先生:...(聽不清) 21 李澍桓大律師:清唔清個水缸都誤鳴㗎喇? 22 鍾傑文先生:係,但係就唔會整壞台泵。 23 李澍桓大律師:因為我住嗰度因為舊,似乎天氣潮濕都會搞到佢誤鳴吖嘛。 24 鍾傑文先生:係,係,所以就唔想有誤鳴嘅時候整壞台泵。 25 李澍桓大律師:但係你唔會因為擔心純粹任何原因有誤鳴而成套消防裝備閂咗佢㗎嘛? 26 鍾傑文先生:佢哋(English Spoken)係咁樣嘅處理多。 27 李澍桓大律師:即係實際上或者做法上,慣常做法係點一回事喇。 28 鍾傑文先生:係。 29 李澍桓大律師:即係如果你話--我頭先問你嘅... 30 鍾傑文先生:冇錯。 31 李澍桓大律師:...純粹從技術層面上面,... 32 鍾傑文先生:係可以唔需要。 33 李澍桓大律師:...係冇必要閂㗎嘛? 34 鍾傑文先生:係,冇必要,冇錯。 35 李澍桓大律師:好,另外咁完咗呢個消防泵嘅問題,下一個問題就你記得上次我都有問過你 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第九天

16 本謄本由Epiq 編製 嘅,就係關於嗰個年檢嘅核對表。 1 鍾傑文先生:係。 2 李澍桓大律師:咁我都向你指出過,就話似乎宏仁同宏志嗰度,關於個水缸嗰個問題,你就 3 寫咗其中有部分有問題,不過又好似冇話要修理,記唔記得? 4 鍾傑文先生:記得。 5 李澍桓大律師:咁你就話你都唔知點解黃生你嘅同事會咁樣剔咗,咁喺上次聽證會完咗之 6 後,你有冇問番黃生「喂,你無端端走去剔鬼咗話有問題做咩嘢?」 7 鍾傑文先生:都係甩漏到... 8 李澍桓大律師:第一樣嘢,有冇問過先? 9 鍾傑文先生:有。 10 李澍桓大律師:咁佢點樣答你? 11 鍾傑文先生:甩漏囉。 12 李澍桓大律師:即係佢自己甩漏? 13 金鍾傑文先生:係。 14 李澍桓大律師:嗄,即係其實佢都確認話係冇問題嘅? 15 李澍桓大律師:係冇問題嘅。 16 李澍桓大律師:嗄,但係點解八座寧寧舍舍有兩張出錯,佢又解釋唔到? 17 鍾傑文先生:係。 18 李澍桓大律師:係咪? 19 鍾傑文先生:係。 20 李澍桓大律師:你上次有講過呢啲年檢嘅核對表,你就話唔需要喺入個251 嘅時候交畀消防 21 嘅,你記得? 22 鍾傑文先生:冇錯,記得。 23 李澍桓大律師:但係你就有提及過,不過你就要自己即係儲存七年,隨時準備消防可能會突 24 擊抽查,係咪? 25 鍾傑文先生:冇錯。 26 李澍桓大律師:我哋都知道宏福苑,你係基本上宏泰消防係2016 年開始,除咗有一年,咁 27 基本上嗰九年入面都係由宏泰消防去做年檢,係咪? 28 鍾傑文先生:冇錯。 29 李澍桓大律師:有冇消防處曾經就住宏福苑嘅年檢核對表,嚟過做抽查,要你提供畀佢哋檢 30 查? 31 鍾傑文先生:冇。 32 李澍桓大律師:一次都冇? 33 鍾傑文先生:一次都冇。 34 李澍桓大律師:你當然唔會淨係做宏福苑? 35 鍾傑文先生:唔。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第九天

17 本謄本由Epiq 編製 李澍桓大律師:你其他有冇一啲屋苑或者大廈都係做呢啲年檢嘅工作? 1 鍾傑文先生:冇--有做年檢嘅工作。 2 李澍桓大律師:咁同樣地,呢啲其他嘅大廈都要有呢啲核對表? 3 鍾傑文先生:冇錯。 4 李澍桓大律師:咁你自己嘅經驗入面,就住你面對其他嘅嗰啲大廈,消防處有冇曾經向你做 5 過抽查睇核對表? 6 鍾傑文先生:冇,因為都比較新出嘅,係呢幾年出嘅。 7 李澍桓大律師:出咗幾多年?如果以2025 年。 8 鍾傑文先生:佢--我唔記得確實日子,因為佢陸續陸續咁出嘅,每一個系統咁出,應該就係 9 2022 年或者20 年開始陸續出晒咁,咁同埋都好大疊嘅,夾埋,淨係宏福苑都有咁 10 大疊。 11 李澍桓大律師:係,我唔理佢... 12 鍾傑文先生:係,唔緊要,嗄,okay。 13 李澍桓大律師:我唔理佢大唔大疊。 14 鍾傑文先生:Okay。 15 李澍桓大律師:我個問題就純粹想了解下,因為你係受監管註冊嘅消防裝置承辦商吖嘛,咁 16 我純粹想睇下你嘅經驗入面,即係如果你講三四年入面,你嘅經驗就係消防處從來 17 冇向你做過抽查話要睇呢啲核對表,係咪? 18 鍾傑文先生:係,冇錯。 19 李澍桓大律師:Okay。有另一個議題,咁呢個就關於番嗰個年檢之後發生嘅嘢。 20 鍾傑文先生:係。 21 李澍桓大律師:上一次嘅證供,我哋聽完咁多你同埋宏泰消防嘅證供,我哋有個感覺就似乎 22 3 月完咗年檢,10 月就做水喉,11 月就做電工,係咪? 23 鍾傑文先生:係。 24 李澍桓大律師:即係呢個我哋嘅印象,但係似乎其實原來呢一個印象係錯個喎? 25 鍾傑文先生:係,中間發生嗰個工程嘅。 26 李澍桓大律師:其實喺如果3 月31 號完咗年檢,4 月3 號就已經有...(聽不清)要修 27 理,係咪? 28 鍾傑文先生:係,冇錯。 29 李澍桓大律師:我想你--如果係咁,睇番你新提供畀我哋嘅文件。 30 鍾傑文先生:好。 31 李澍桓大律師:咁就R5/1146 頁,呢度我哋見到有一張都係叫做FS251 嘅文件,係咪? 32 鍾傑文先生:係,冇錯。 33 李澍桓大律師:右上角我哋見到有個編號就係A9705473。 34 鍾傑文先生:係。 35 李澍桓大律師:中間--頂嗰度我哋見到就係關於A 座宏仁閣。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第九天

18 本謄本由Epiq 編製 鍾傑文先生:冇錯。 1 李澍桓大律師:咁我哋如果再睇第二部分,我哋就見到係似乎係關於個喉轆同埋消防栓嘅系 2 統出咗問題? 3 鍾傑文先生:係。 4 李澍桓大律師:成座嘅問題,係咪? 5 鍾傑文先生:係--唔係,check 成座。 6 李澍桓大律師:嗄,check 成座。跟住如果我哋睇第三部分個損毀嘅事項,就我哋見到就3 7 樓嗰度似乎有條上水嘅喉管就有破損? 8 鍾傑文先生:係,冇錯。 9 李澍桓大律師:另外跟住我哋就見到呢度有寫住“(English Spoken)”,呢個係咪就 10 係天面嗰個? 11 鍾傑文先生:冇錯。 12 李澍桓大律師:跟住你見到有(English Spoken),即係未修缺點就寫住“(English 13 Spoken)”,即係冇水咁嘅意思? 14 鍾傑文先生:唔係,缺水。 15 李澍桓大律師:缺水? 16 鍾傑文先生:係。 17 李澍桓大律師:跟住缺點嘅評述,你就話要(English Spoken)。 18 鍾傑文先生:冇錯。 19 李澍桓大律師:係咪?而我哋見到呢張文件係下面由鍾生你簽名? 20 鍾傑文先生:冇錯。 21 李澍桓大律師:4 月3 號2025 年嘅日子。 22 鍾傑文先生:係。 23 李澍桓大律師:第一個問題,你有冇去過現場睇呢個水缸嘅情況? 24 鍾傑文先生:黃健華有去,我冇去。 25 李澍桓大律師:我個問題係你有冇? 26 鍾傑文先生:我冇。 27 李澍桓大律師:你就冇。 28 鍾傑文先生:冇去。 29 李澍桓大律師:咁黃生其實係3 月嘅時候先去做完年檢? 30 鍾傑文先生:冇錯。 31 李澍桓大律師:咁有冇發覺--首先,第一,就住個喉管破損嘅情況,有冇啲咩嘢觀察? 32 鍾傑文先生:就真係喉管爆咗,上水喉。 33 李澍桓大律師:嗰個爆係人為鑿穿咗定係老化,物料老化穿咗,你知唔知? 34 鍾傑文先生:我覺得係自然嘅。 35 李澍桓大律師:你覺得,因為你冇去㗎嘛? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第九天

19 本謄本由Epiq 編製 鍾傑文先生:我睇相。 1 李澍桓大律師:嗄,因為似乎我又好似睇唔到有相提供過畀我哋。 2 鍾傑文先生:Okay。 3 李澍桓大律師:所以我就冇相嘅。 4 鍾傑文先生:Okay。 5 李澍桓大律師:你睇番相,就似乎係咩嘢話?自然破損? 6 鍾傑文先生:係。 7 李澍桓大律師:咁呢個都似乎唔會係即係一日半日發生嘅事,咁會唔會係年檢嘅時候做得唔 8 夠仔細? 9 鍾傑文先生:其實喉管爆之前係冇得可以有先兆咁滯嘅。咁我哋做年檢嘅時候,佢係滿水, 10 咁佢冇上水個喎。 11 李澍桓大律師:係。 12 鍾傑文先生:嗄。 13 李澍桓大律師:咁黃生就有落過去嘅? 14 鍾傑文先生:係。 15 李澍桓大律師:但係佢又奇怪地,上次嚟講嘅時候佢又好似又係完全唔記得咗4 月份有件咁 16 嘅事發生過個喎? 17 鍾傑文先生:我諗我哋一路都係回答你問題,係嘞。 18 李澍桓大律師:但係我冇去過㗎嘛,我睇文件--呢啲文件係之後先提供畀我哋㗎嘛。 19 鍾傑文先生:係,係。 20 李澍桓大律師:我問過唔只你一次,係咪3 月之後就10 月、11 月,你回答上一次都係話 21 10 月、11 月吖嘛。 22 鍾傑文先生:冇醒起呢樣嘢。 23 李澍桓大律師:係,因為呢個就年檢之後三日就發生㗎喇嘛,4 月3 號吖嘛? 24 鍾傑文先生:係,係,冇錯。 25 李澍桓大律師:睇1147 頁,我哋就見到有一個--跟住就係咪黃生落完去之後,就跟住你哋 26 做呢個報價? 27 鍾傑文先生:冇錯。 28 李澍桓大律師:問番你係邊一個通知你,叫你派人落去睇嗰個漏水? 29 鍾傑文先生:鄭小姐。 30 李澍桓大律師:鄭小姐。咁黃生有冇話畀你知就住嗰個天面嗰個水缸話唔夠水,係咪? 31 鍾傑文先生:係。 32 李澍桓大律師:嗰個情況又係因為乜嘢引致嘅? 33 鍾傑文先生:其實佢就當時嚟講,我同佢討論,佢就話有七八成水,咁就少咗啲嘅,咁我就 34 見佢冇再(English Spoken)嘅。咁我哋嗰陣時傾,因為我哋已經見到即係圍 35 晒棚網又盛嘅,咁我哋擔心即係點解會少咗啲水,咁即係得出個結論就係可能有啲 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第九天

20 本謄本由Epiq 編製 大維修師傅會喺啲龍頭、喉轆嗰度攞水用,咁我哋驚,我哋走咗嘅時候,咁可能啲 1 水會越嚟越少,所以我決定要掛牌。 2 李澍桓大律師:呢個係你同黃生自己坐埋兩個喺度研究嘅啫? 3 鍾傑文先生:係,係,唔係坐埋嘅,電話,嗄。 4 李澍桓大律師:即係兩個研究? 5 鍾傑文先生:係,係。 6 李澍桓大律師:咁黃生或者你有冇問過、了解過,譬如問番置邦,點解會出現嗰個水缸啱啱 7 年檢完都冇事,突然之間就冇水? 8 鍾傑文先生:冇,我哋其實都係憑我哋經驗、評估㗎咋。 9 李澍桓大律師:因為如果你嘅評估係話有啲工人唔應該用嗰個水,就用咗或者駁咗喉落去 10 嘅,其實呢個好大問題,係咪? 11 鍾傑文先生:不過呢個係成日都會遇到嘅。 12 李澍桓大律師:我個問題唔係問你係咪成日。 13 鍾傑文先生:Okay。 14 李澍桓大律師:我個問題係呢個係一個好嚴重嘅問題嚟㗎嘛? 15 鍾傑文先生:係,係。 16 李澍桓大律師:咁有冇落去檢查埋個上水泵,會唔會係個上水泵壞咗? 17 鍾傑文先生:冇。 18 李澍桓大律師:即係你哋又肯定一定唔關個上水泵事? 19 鍾傑文先生:因為佢哋已經唔上水,我估佢熄咗。 20 李澍桓大律師:又係估? 21 鍾傑文先生:係。 22 李澍桓大律師:黃先生有冇落過去睇過個上水缸? 23 鍾傑文先生:冇,冇,我問過。 24 李澍桓大律師:但係個天面水缸同個上水泵係一體㗎嘛,即係一個系統嚟㗎嘛? 25 鍾傑文先生:係,係。 26 李澍桓大律師:咁黃先生冇,你有冇吩咐佢「喂,你去睇埋個」... 27 鍾傑文先生:冇,因為我哋覺得係已經閂咗。 28 李澍桓大律師:但係呢個係4 月個咋喎? 29 鍾傑文先生:係。 30 李澍桓大律師:點解你會有個感覺?因為而家唔係講緊10 月咩嘢大維、修掛牌嗰啲嘢喎。 31 鍾傑文先生:係,但係嗰陣時已經係大維修緊。 32 李澍桓大律師:係,咁係咪已經有人話畀你知其實係閂咗個上水泵? 33 鍾傑文先生:我哋見到冇再上水。 34 李澍桓大律師:冇再上水,所以我咪就話有機會唔係閂咗,可以壞咗都得㗎嘛,係咪? 35 鍾傑文先生:佢條上水喉爆咗,咁爆得條上水喉就一定行泵上水嘅,所以我覺得你話台泵壞 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第九天

21 本謄本由Epiq 編製 嘅機會就好細。 1 李澍桓大律師:所以亦都冇落過去睇過個泵,... 2 鍾傑文先生:係,亦都--係嘞。。 3 李澍桓大律師:...因為你覺得都睇嚟都多餘? 4 鍾傑文先生:可以咁講。 5 李澍桓大律師:好,睇番1147 頁呢一個,我哋見到左上角就係畀置邦黎先生或者鄭小姐 6 收,咁你記唔記得最後同你接洽嘅講價錢或者各樣嘢係黎先生定係鄭小姐? 7 鍾傑文先生:鄭小姐。 8 李澍桓大律師:鄭小姐。咁我哋見到如果再落一頁 1148 ,就喺左上角好細嘅字 9 “2025/05/221446"嘅,有個應該係傳真嘅。 10 鍾傑文先生:係。 11 李澍桓大律師:呢個係唔係就係當時置邦簽咗,我哋見到右下角簽咗名蓋章接受呢個報價, 12 然之後傳真返嚟畀你嘅版本? 13 鍾傑文先生:冇錯,冇錯。 14 李澍桓大律師:即係你就5 月22 號就收到通知你可以去做維修,係咪? 15 鍾傑文先生:係,冇錯。 16 陸啟康法官:對唔住,我可唔可以問番你頭先,我唔係好明白,你話開始水少咗,你冇 17 check 個泵,因為你話覺得泵已經閂咗,... 18 鍾傑文先生:冇錯。 19 陸啟康法官:...點解你覺得泵已經閂咗? 20 鍾傑文先生:因為爆喉佢哋唔會--即係好多都係,呢啲係好(English Spoken )嘅情 21 況,如果你爆喉嘅情況,你由台泵不停咁樣去行嘅話,可能會導致浸嘢囉,咁所以 22 閂... 23 陸啟康法官:我明,你去嗰陣時佢應該閂咗,即係平時漏水你閂咗總掣。 24 鍾傑文先生:唔,係嘞。 25 陸啟康法官:但係點解你唔覺得係個泵壞呢? 26 鍾傑文先生:因為如果台泵壞咗嘅話,佢根本就唔會逼爆嗰條喉,嗰條係上水喉嚟嘅,即係 27 台泵唔行根本都唔會有水上去嘅,係嘞,咁樣囉。 28 李澍桓大律師:係,即係所以你嘅意思就係咁,事後都嗰喉爆咗,咁點都要有人係暫時制止 29 咗佢漏水,所以應該會有人閂咗個泵? 30 鍾傑文先生:係,冇錯,冇錯。 31 李澍桓大律師:咁呢個理解就係第一,所以點解你認為第一個泵唔會壞,因為壞咗就唔會搞 32 到漏水? 33 鍾傑文先生:係,冇錯。 34 李澍桓大律師:而去到漏水嘅時候要制止佢繼續漏水,就一定會有人已經熄咗個泵? 35 鍾傑文先生:係,冇錯。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第九天

22 本謄本由Epiq 編製 李澍桓大律師:一陣間我哋再返轉頭睇下個直接執修嗰個情況。但係我哋如果再落去就睇 1 1149 頁,就係呢個你入咗個所謂叫做「裝置關閉通知書」,就係個(English 2 Spoken),係咪? 3 鍾傑文先生:冇錯。 4 李澍桓大律師:頂頂我哋見到就係關於宏仁閣,呢度有講你剔咗嘅就係要處理個消防栓喉轆 5 嘅系統。 6 鍾傑文先生:冇錯。 7 李澍桓大律師:原本如果我哋睇落去少少,第二部分,你就諗住要個工程係5 月28 號先至 8 會完工嘅,係咪? 9 鍾傑文先生:係,完全完工。 10 李澍桓大律師:我哋見到似乎你收到嗰個--應該我係睇到嘅就係最褸屘個完整嘅版本,應該 11 第一次你交去畀消防處嘅時候,其實就第三部分應該未填寫嘅? 12 鍾傑文先生:冇錯,冇錯。 13 李澍桓大律師:我哋所以見到就係5 月15 號似乎消防處就收到呢一個你哋嘅通知。 14 鍾傑文先生:延期通知。 15 李澍桓大律師:係嘞,延期通知,即係第二部分。 16 鍾傑文先生:唔。 17 李澍桓大律師:我哋見到佢上面有住「消防通訊中心蓋印」,跟住下面有寫住“(English 18 Spoken)"嘅,你見到㗎? 19 鍾傑文先生:唔,冇錯。 20 李澍桓大律師:喺你入完呢一張即係第二部分嘅呢一個SDN 嘅時候,有冇消防處聯絡過你, 21 問你點解要做一個維修? 22 鍾傑文先生:我記得就冇,係不過就又呢個延期就冇嘅,延期冇嘅。 23 李澍桓大律師:即係你入完張form 傳真咗去消防處,係咪? 24 鍾傑文先生:係。 25 李澍桓大律師:你就冇收過消防處有任何... 26 鍾傑文先生:4 月4 號有,我4 月3 號六點幾嘅時候入,4 月4 號消防處有打電話畀我。 27 李澍桓大律師:係,問你乜嘢? 28 鍾傑文先生:佢問想了解個情況,佢咁咪話「閂啲咩嘢系統?」咁樣囉。 29 李澍桓大律師:你就如實稟報? 30 鍾傑文先生:係,係,冇錯。 31 李澍桓大律師:好,跟住我哋見到就應該--我相信就係派咗同事落去修理? 32 鍾傑文先生:唔,冇錯,5 月27。 33 李澍桓大律師:5 月27 修理嘅時候係邊位同事落去? 34 鍾傑文先生:叫阿強,外判商嚟嘅。 35 李澍桓大律師:就唔係唐生,唔係蔡生? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第九天

23 本謄本由Epiq 編製 鍾傑文先生:係,冇錯。 1 李澍桓大律師:咁呢位叫阿強嘅外判工有冇落去處理過個水泵嘅問題? 2 鍾傑文先生:冇。 3 李澍桓大律師:佢應該換條喉都要再一次,因為都隔咗差唔多一個月,多過一個月添,佢唔 4 係都應該落去即係確保個泵閂咗先至換條喉嘅咩? 5 鍾傑文先生:係,因為我同鄭小姐傾個價錢嘅時候,咁佢提議就話佢哋上水,我哋淨係換條 6 喉,所以就換完條喉嘅時候,5 月28 號我就WhatsApp 佢,我問佢「嗰度上滿水 7 未呀?可唔可以搵同事影番個滿水相畀我?」咁樣,咁我見到滿咗水,跟住我就... 8 (聽不清) 9 李澍桓大律師:等一陣先,即係阿強做完修理,換咗個水管,佢就冇去自己話測試番,開番 10 個泵? 11 鍾傑文先生:冇嘅。 12 李澍桓大律師:咁如果係咁,你睇番1147 頁嗰個報價單1.2 嗰度,你話處理消防系統放水 13 同埋做番入水工程就收3,000 鈫,呢樣嘢其實有冇做到? 14 鍾傑文先生:冇嘅。 15 李澍桓大律師:即係水缸又冇放水,做完之後又冇上番水,係你嘅決定定係阿強嘅解決? 16 鍾傑文先生:我嘅決定。 17 李澍桓大律師:但係你報價報咗畀人話會做個喎? 18 鍾傑文先生:我哋係一單過嘅其實,就只不過一開頭嘅時候我哋係諗住做嘅,呢個9,000 19 鈫嘅時候,跟住就後期管理處提議嘅時候,我就減咗500 鈫咁樣。 20 李澍桓大律師:即係話4 月份做完呢個工程之後,同樣地仲有冇繼續漏水,泵有冇問題,其 21 實冇人知個喎? 22 鍾傑文先生:我哋睇到嗰張相係滿水嘅,我哋確信係okay 嘅。 23 李澍桓大律師:即係你如果睇到相有水,... 24 鍾傑文先生:滿水。 25 李澍桓大律師:...你就覺得咁就應該係okay? 26 鍾傑文先生:係嘞。 27 李澍桓大律師:我哋一陣間就去睇下啲相,咁我呢個議題,我諗我可以問到你嘅嘢都問咗。 28 你記得就其中一個議題,我哋上次提及過嘅就係一個關於你同鄭小姐嘅一啲對話。 29 鍾傑文先生:係,冇錯。 30 李澍桓大律師:你提供咗有啲WhatsApp 紀錄畀我嘅,不過我想因為清晰啲,就我哋睇鄭小 31 姐嗰個版本,好唔好? 32 鍾傑文先生:可以。 33 李澍桓大律師:我哋就H4/6800,開始睇,呢度我哋見到其實係鄭小姐嘅電話嚟嘅。 34 鍾傑文先生:係。 35 李澍桓大律師:然後佢有一個WhatsApp 嘅截圖,就我哋見到最頂頂嗰度,應該第一張嘅就 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第九天

24 本謄本由Epiq 編製 係2025 年10 月2 號,就講緊幾時可以做執修,我相信就講緊係關於嗰個報價嘅 1 問題,係咪? 2 鍾傑文先生:年檢後維修嘅報價。 3 李澍桓大律師:即係嗰個執修嗰個問題? 4 鍾傑文先生:係,冇錯。 5 李澍桓大律師:如果我哋跳落去睇10 月8 號,似乎就解決咗嗰個報價嘅問題,6802 頁, 6 就似乎鄭小姐就問你幾時可以安排做執修,係咪? 7 鍾傑文先生:冇錯。 8 李澍桓大律師:你呢度就講話「最近都好忙,所以要諗一諗啲時間。」你睇到喇? 9 鍾傑文先生:唔。 10 李澍桓大律師:如果我哋再跳落去睇10 月22 號,最頂嗰度有個14:48 嗰個時間嘅訊息, 11 就似乎係鄭小姐話畀你知佢送咗一份文件畀你嘅,因為其實我哋放大睇到其實就應 12 該係消防處出嘅一個就住嗰啲維修,做一個我諗係即係... 13 鍾傑文先生:跟進。 14 李澍桓大律師:即係封就話要催下做好未咁樣。 15 鍾傑文先生:係,冇錯。 16 李澍桓大律師:咁佢28 號我哋見到就繼續,藍色就係鄭小姐嘅訊息,14:36 佢就話「鍾 17 生,想問下你幾時可以安排嚟做執修?」係咪? 18 鍾傑文先生:係。 19 李澍桓大律師:白色嗰個左手邊就係你嘅回覆嚟嘅。 20 鍾傑文先生:冇錯。 21 李澍桓大律師:14:37 嗰度屘嗰兩個係咩嘢?就話你問鄭小姐「入番水未?冇水都完唔到 22 工。」以你嘅理解或者你寫呢個訊息嘅意思,係唔係話你當時知道就係因為同事話 23 咗畀你知水缸冇水? 24 鍾傑文先生:唔只,因為我10 月17 號我問過佢嘅,好似之前我都講過,12 點06 分我畀 25 過電話佢,我問佢「係唔係掛咗牌?」佢話「係。」咁我問佢攞個掛牌紙,佢就話 26 「要搵,唔喺手。」然後咁我話「好喇,我等你個除牌紙同埋251」咁樣。 27 李澍桓大律師:咁所以... 28 鍾傑文先生:所以我咪問番佢,係。 29 李澍桓大律師:所以呢14:37,10 月28 號你就都仍然問番佢,咁究竟個「水缸入番水 30 未?」 31 鍾傑文先生:係,係。 32 李澍桓大律師:冇水嘅我都試唔到啲嘢,係咪?即係好明顯。 33 鍾傑文先生:係,冇錯。 34 李澍桓大律師:所以我哋睇6805 頁,鄭小姐15:31 嘅訊息就似乎係話畀你知已經入番 35 水。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第九天

25 本謄本由Epiq 編製 鍾傑文先生:冇錯。 1 李澍桓大律師:咁你就答15:31,就話「好嘅。」咁即係話畀你知個水缸已經有水,係咪 2 呀? 3 鍾傑文先生:係。 4 李澍桓大律師:咁唔單只,因為似乎好似就一路未同佢執修,所以我哋睇6806 頁,就11 5 月21 號--或者我哋睇6807 頁,就我哋見到佢就再send 個訊息畀你,發送嗰個 6 訊息就話「鍾生,呢度有啲消防缸入咗水嘅相,咁呀問下你係唔係即係做完執修, 7 就可以簽番畀消防呀?」問下你「消防泵換咗未呀?」咁你見到上面有十二張相 8 嘅,係咪? 9 鍾傑文先生:其實共十五張嘅,WhatsApp 頭三張唔計,然後加十二。 10 李澍桓大律師:總共十五張添? 11 鍾傑文先生:係,十五張嚟㗎。 12 李澍桓大律師:好,然之後我哋就睇番嗰啲相,喺H6/6820 開始睇,你有冇撳開啲相睇嚟 13 睇? 14 鍾傑文先生:有,有。 15 李澍桓大律師:有㗎嘛? 16 鍾傑文先生:有,絶對有。 17 李澍桓大律師:如果我哋好快咁睇,基本上似乎大部分嘅水缸都已經有番水,係咪? 18 鍾傑文先生:係,不過睇個日期就之前咁樣。 19 李澍桓大律師:即係你都有個懷疑係唔係,你10 月--我哋頭先睇番嗰個訊息似乎就係11 20 月21 號你送嗰啲相畀我,但係啲相個日子又好似之前,但係就一定係11 月17 號 21 之後? 22 鍾傑文先生:肯定,咁我當時--我可唔可以講少少我當時嗰個... 23 李澍桓大律師:講少少之前,不如等我問埋你下一個問題先。 24 鍾傑文先生:好,好。 25 李澍桓大律師:既然你都有懷疑,我哋知道嘅時間線上面,你嘅同事就應該係11 月19 號落 26 去做執修? 27 鍾傑文先生:冇錯,係。 28 李澍桓大律師:19、20、21,除咗禮拜日,就基本上都喺現場? 29 鍾傑文先生:係。 30 李澍桓大律師:你有冇叫過任何一個同事上去天台或者地下睇下啲水缸? 31 鍾傑文先生:我好想,所以我收到... 32 李澍桓大律師:有定冇? 33 鍾傑文先生:冇。 34 李澍桓大律師:你就話你好想,有乜嘢阻止你好想但係唔做呢? 35 鍾傑文先生:我收到呢幅相嘅時候,我就即刻將呢啲相send 咗去我哋自己宏泰嗰個group 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第九天

26 本謄本由Epiq 編製 度,我係諗住叫人哋去做嘅時候,我睇到啲相都唔係嘅,都係之前嘅,睇嚟都冇 1 用。所以之後我就搵鄭小姐... 2 李澍桓大律師:停一停先。 3 鍾傑文先生:係。 4 李澍桓大律師:睇下我個理解,即係你就話覺得的相我都覺得好似有啲問題,但係我哋確認 5 到嘅就係嗰一個星期入面,19 號開始你有三位,最少三位同事喺現場嘅? 6 鍾傑文先生:係。 7 李澍桓大律師:其實上天面個水缸都係搭𨋢,就最多行一層,由31 樓行上去天台,睇一睇 8 個水缸有冇水都唔係好難嘅啫? 9 鍾傑文先生:唔係好難,但係個問題係... 10 李澍桓大律師:但係冇做,係咪? 11 鍾傑文先生:因為個泵都閂咗。 12 李澍桓大律師:我個問題就係... 13 鍾傑文先生:我明,okay。 14 李澍桓大律師:...即係而家鄭小姐,你個老即係主顧就話畀你知入咗水,起碼有一部分你 15 都講,消防水喉嗰部分未測試? 16 鍾傑文先生:唔。 17 李澍桓大律師:「唔」嘅意思你同意? 18 鍾傑文先生:係。 19 李澍桓大律師:你上次你亦都講「我唔係唔做,係未做」,記唔記得上一次咁講? 20 鍾傑文先生:記得,記得。 21 李澍桓大律師:所以而家咪有個機會畀你起碼做咗第一部分先? 22 鍾傑文先生:呢個做唔到,點解我咁講?可能你未必會同意。只要個消防泵係閂咗,哪怕你 23 入面有水都好,喺我哋角度都係唔work 嘅嗰個系統。 24 李澍桓大律師:呢個另一個問題嚟嘅。 25 鍾傑文先生:係。 26 李澍桓大律師:其實因為以你嘅理解,即係唔好任何人,你先喇吓。你嘅理解要閂消防泵, 27 要閂個放水水缸,其實人哋即係置邦根據你所講話畀你知,就係因為要做鋪磚或者 28 做維修個水缸,係咪? 29 鍾傑文先生:佢話大維修做嘢。 30 李澍桓大律師:大維修,佢唔係話畀你知我要轉佢做食水缸、鹹水缸? 31 鍾傑文先生:冇,冇,冇咁講。 32 李澍桓大律師:佢純粹話畀你知個水缸要執修,因為漏水,係咪呀? 33 鍾傑文先生:唔,唔。 34 李澍桓大律師:呢個係你從咁多方面了解到返嚟嘅信息嚟,係咪呀? 35 鍾傑文先生:係。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第九天

27 本謄本由Epiq 編製 李澍桓大律師:起碼去到11 月21 號你嘅理解都仍然係咁㗎嘛? 1 鍾傑文先生:有少少唔同當時,19 號之後我有少少覺得唔只係咁。 2 李澍桓大律師:我唔想講話純粹你覺得啲乜,如果你話你知道唔係咁嘅,不如你話畀我知你 3 個基礎係因為有人話畀你知?因為我自己睇到? 4 鍾傑文先生:我自己睇到。 5 李澍桓大律師:你睇到乜嘢? 6 鍾傑文先生:就係佢個上水喉--個上水泵嗰截喉都已經拆埋,如果當時嚟講維修天台消防缸 7 唔需要咁樣做,我哋覺得有好多工程做緊。 8 李澍桓大律師:所以我咪就係話如果係咁嘅,一個正常嘅反應咪就係問清楚「喂,你好似唔 9 係淨係整個水缸喎?又越拆越多。」係咪? 10 鍾傑文先生:係,所以我哋嘅做法... 11 李澍桓大律師:所以下一個問題咪就係你有冇問? 12 鍾傑文先生:有,就係問佢攞個除牌紙同埋 251 ,如果你完晒,我哋(English 13 Spoken)okay,你唔會再郁個系統。 14 李澍桓大律師:但係我嘅意思,最直接嘅就係唔好攞張紙返嚟自己慢慢睇,咪直接問置邦 15 「究竟你哋而家喺個消防裝置上面做緊啲乜呀?點解有咗水但係又拆條喉?你 16 send 啲相畀我又過期,又係兩個月前、三個月前。」唔係咁樣最直接咩? 17 鍾傑文先生:係嘅。 18 李澍桓大律師:同樣地又係冇做,係咪?你嘅講法就係「因為我有問佢攞掛牌紙」? 19 鍾傑文先生:係。 20 李澍桓大律師:所以亦都根據你所講,覺得叫個同事... 21 鍾傑文先生:我可唔可以講多句? 22 李澍桓大律師:可以。 23 鍾傑文先生:溝通有陣時要雙方嘅,就係咁。 24 李澍桓大律師:咁都要溝通,第一方都要你問咗人哋先答㗎嘛? 25 鍾傑文先生:已經係講晒畀佢聽個系統閂晒,除咗牌--佢哋係已經掛咗牌... 26 李澍桓大律師:對你公道啲,我理解你嘅證供其實到目前呢一刻為止,你都係話畀我知,問 27 鄭小姐又好,林生又好,總之你問置邦嘅,其實一路問嚟問去,就係問畀個除牌紙- 28 -掛牌紙我睇,係咪? 29 鍾傑文先生:仲有除牌--唔只,仲有話我其實除埋牌251 嘅,咁我先可以... 30 李澍桓大律師:總之你簡單啲嚟講,你問佢攞文件咋嘛。 31 鍾傑文先生:係。 32 李澍桓大律師:所以我個講法就係你從來冇捉住一個人,置邦嘅問,其實好似頭先咁講,粗 33 鄙啲講「喂,你哋究竟搞乜鬼呀?」冇人問過呢個問題? 34 鍾傑文先生:冇嘅,冇問過。 35 李澍桓大律師:你會可能都高興,就係我嚟到都接近尾聲。咁呢啲相即係話你有睇過,你亦 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第九天

28 本謄本由Epiq 編製 都唔收貨,冇再追問點解送啲過期相畀你,係咪? 1 鍾傑文先生:係。 2 李澍桓大律師:睇下啲客觀嘅事實,係我綜合到嘅,講番畀你知,睇你同唔同意我嘅理解? 3 鍾傑文先生:好。 4 李澍桓大律師:聽到咁多個證人,即係你嘅同事所講,尤其是剛剛作供嘅唐先生,喺12 月 5 16 號、17 號呢兩日,基本上佢只係檢查過八座入面其中三個嘅水缸,當然只能夠 6 佢係咁講,我哋就係咁聽。就住另外嗰五座,如果根據唐先生所講,佢就話問林先 7 生嘅。 8 鍾傑文先生:係,第一日嘅時候問晒。 9 李澍桓大律師:林先生就話畀佢知八座水缸都冇水,所以唐先生就倚靠林先生講嘅嘢,係 10 咪?即係起碼有五座。 11 鍾傑文先生:完全唔同意嘅。 12 李澍桓大律師:完全唔同意? 13 鍾傑文先生:唔係,唔係完全同意,原因係咩嘢呢?唐慶麟佢有開過閘掣,如果有水嘅時候 14 會,佢會聽到水聲同埋睇到啲出水,佢就係開咗都發覺都係冇,所以佢都覺得啲水 15 缸冇水。 16 李澍桓大律師:試下精準啲。 17 鍾傑文先生:Okay。 18 李澍桓大律師:我唔係話佢冇開過個閘掣或者閂過個閘掣,... 19 鍾傑文先生:佢冇睇過就係。 20 李澍桓大律師:...我針嘅揭開個水缸蓋望一望落去,呢個都應該唔係好大工程,唔需要工 21 具就做到嘅嘢嚟㗎嘛,係咪呀? 22 鍾傑文先生:係。 23 李澍桓大律師:所以我哋都確立咗唐先生嘅講法,就係佢睇咗三座,另外嗰五座冇睇嘅? 24 鍾傑文先生:係。 25 李澍桓大律師:佢嘅資料熟要倚靠林先生話畀佢知,係咪?因為林先生話畀佢知另外嗰五垐 26 都冇水。 27 鍾傑文先生:頭先我回應咗㗎嘞。 28 李澍桓大律師:佢冇自己睇過,佢講嘅。 29 鍾傑文先生:佢冇睇到個水缸,但係唔係完全倚靠佢。 30 李澍桓大律師:因為佢都有開過個掣,開掣冇水,好明顯入面冇。 31 鍾傑文先生:係,所以唔係完全倚靠佢,我個(English Spoken)就喺呢度。 32 李澍桓大律師:即係塞咗都得嘅不過陣時,會唔會係? 33 鍾傑文先生:可以咁講,即係唔係完全淨係話佢咁樣就係。 34 李澍桓大律師:塞咗都可以冇水出嘅。 35 鍾傑文先生:(點頭)唔。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第九天

29 本謄本由Epiq 編製 李澍桓大律師:你點頭都同意,係咪? 1 鍾傑文先生:係,同意,同意。 2 李澍桓大律師:即係可以有水,塞咗個水掣,咁所以個閘掣咪出唔到水? 3 鍾傑文先生:係,冇錯。 4 李澍桓大律師:但係我想講嘅就係--即係簡單啲嚟講,唐生係倚靠林生,就住電器嗰方面, 5 泵熄咗,咩嘢系統熄咗,你就要倚靠黃生佢哋、李生佢哋,係咪? 6 鍾傑文先生:係。 7 李澍桓大律師:即係呢個係11 月嘅嘢? 8 鍾傑文先生:係。 9 李澍桓大律師:而我哋知道你先至係一個註冊持牌嘅消防裝置承辦商嘅持牌人,係咪? 10 鍾傑文先生:係,冇錯。 11 李澍桓大律師:我哋亦都同你確認咗,2025 年3 月年檢你冇去過宏福苑? 12 鍾傑文先生:係。 13 李澍桓大律師:4 月第一次--或者5 月做維修,4 月做檢查爆水喉,你冇落過現場? 14 鍾傑文先生:係。 15 李澍桓大律師:10 月你冇去過,11 月冇去過,全部你嘅監督就係倚靠你嘅員工話畀你知發 16 生咩嘢事,係咪? 17 鍾傑文先生:係。 18 李澍桓大律師:我唔想同你話攞個消防處啲咩嘢指引《作業守則》出嚟咬文嚼字同你講。你 19 就純粹聽呢個講聽嗰個講,你嘅同事又再聽人哋講,你覺得作為一個註冊嘅消防裝 20 置承辦商,你嘅呢種做法,以你自己覺得係唔係一個適合盡責嘅做法? 21 鍾傑文先生:唔理想嘅。 22 李澍桓大律師:咁你覺得點樣可以做得理想啲? 23 鍾傑文先生:可能我真係太忙嘅,即係我應該要抽多啲時間。 24 李澍桓大律師:八套系統,八座宏福苑,如果一千九百幾戶人嘅性命就靠呢啲系統個囉喎? 25 鍾傑文先生:係,但係唔係我哋閂。 26 李澍桓大律師:當然你唔能夠代表整個業界講說話,以你自己為例,既然你見到自己嗰個工 27 作模式係咁樣,如果話消防處要--因為其中一樣嘢我諗我哋都要考慮有咩嘢需要改 28 善,多啲嘅監管,嚴謹啲嘅可能甚至乎除牌嘅制度,你覺得呢個係唔係一個適合確 29 保啲工程會妥善進行嘅做法呢? 30 鍾傑文先生:認同,認同。 31 李澍桓大律師:主席,我冇其他問題。 32 許偉強資深大律師:係,主席,我諗我有唔少問題,我大概可能--不過應該超過一個鐘頭, 33 所以我睇下會唔會係一個合適嘅時間作一個小休? 34 陸啟康法官:而家我哋小休十分鐘。 35

36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第九天

30 本謄本由Epiq 編製 11 時19 分聆訊押後 1 11 時29 分聆訊恢復 2

3 陸啟康法官:十分鐘太短嘞,唔緊要,不過我哋今日時間上都真係幾緊逼,好,請繼續。 4 許偉強資深大律師:唔該,唔該,主席。鍾先生,你好。 5 鍾傑文先生:你好。 6 許偉強資深大律師:係,你好,記得你上個星期嚟委員會聽證會畀只供嘅時候,我都有同你 7 討論過一個問題,就係有關你同鄭小姐喺2025 年10 月17 號有一個電話交談, 8 記唔記得? 9 鍾傑文先生:冇錯。 10 許偉強資深大律師:你記得嗰陣時我哋討論嘅時候大家都同意嘅,就係呢一個電話嘅交談, 11 就喺你向委員會提交嘅證供喇,即係證人口供,同埋喺同警方提交嘅證人口供都冇 12 提過呢個交談嘅,記得嘛? 13 鍾傑文先生:同意。 14 許偉強資深大律師:我同李大律師,即係委員會嘅大律師都有問過你關於呢一個交談個情 15 況,你當時嘅解釋,都係同委員會講因為呢一段時間諗番起,亦都係你去翻查過一 16 啲電話記錄,所以就肯定有一個10 月17 號同鄭小姐喺12 點06 分嘅一個對話 17 嘅。 18 鍾傑文先生:係。 19 許偉強資深大律師:我哋而家都睇到嗰個對話,大概係維持咗1 分08 秒嘅,根據個電話紀 20 錄,你記得嘛? 21 鍾傑文先生:係,冇錯。 22 許偉強資深大律師:你亦都當時,上個星期同委員會講呢,就話點解你要同鄭小姐有呢個電 23 話交談呢?就係當時因為你知道咗嗰個消防水缸冇水嗰個情況,係咪? 24 鍾傑文先生:係嘞。 25 許偉強資深大律師:所以你都好緊張,你都希望知道,你哋嗰啲維修工程可以幾時去做,同 26 埋你哋可以幾時完成到,可以出到個FS251,你當時個口供都有提及嘅,同意嘛? 27 鍾傑文先生:係,冇錯。 28 許偉強資深大律師:我想問下你,就係你當時嘅口供就話你喺呢個10 月17 號同鄭小姐個交 29 談入面呢,你都幾清楚、幾肯定話畀委員會聽,你有同佢提及過話,即係希望你去 30 了解下個SDN 個情況,同埋如果完工就出番一個除牌紙嘅情況,係咪? 31 鍾傑文先生:係。 32 許偉強資深大律師:上個禮拜四,即係4 月2 號,即係你畀咗口供之後大概兩日喥,鄭小姐 33 都嚟咗呢度畀口供喇? 34 鍾傑文先生:係。 35 許偉強資深大律師:咁我亦都有問過佢關於呢一個10 月17 號呢個電話交談嘅情況?當時你 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第九天

31 本謄本由Epiq 編製 在場㗎嘛? 1 鍾傑文先生:唔嗯,在場嘅。 2 許偉強資深大律師:唔。我問鄭小姐嘅時候呢,鄭小姐個口供都係話佢唔記得喺大火之前你 3 有問過佢關於SDN,佢個講法呢,我相信你都有聽過,你慢慢聽完我講之後,我會 4 畀時間你去解釋。佢個講法就係話因為佢哋嗰啲文件都擺咗喺個電腦度,如果真係 5 要攞出嚟好容易嘅啫,佢話「我冇記憶有人曾經問過我呢啲嘢喎」咁,你聽過佢呢 6 個證供喇。 7 鍾傑文先生:唔。 8 許偉強資深大律師:你同唔同意佢呢個講法? 9 鍾傑文先生:梗係唔同意喇。 10 許偉強資深大律師:唔。咁你可唔可以解釋一下,如果你真係有問過佢,你早於10 月17 號 11 已經問過佢,你諗唔諗到有咩嘢原因佢唔畀你呢,諗唔諗到? 12 鍾傑文先生:我以前梗係諗唔到喇,所以我都問完都唔係話乜嘢,我都係睇到個Bundle, 13 我好(English Spoken),原來係置邦啲人刪咗,咁所以我就覺得,哦,原來 14 係咁。 15 許偉強資深大律師:你唔係答到我問題。 16 鍾傑文先生:哦。 17 許偉強資深大律師:我係問你個問題話,如果你真係10 月17 號問過佢,喺電話問佢關於 18 SDN,... 19 鍾傑文先生:係。 20 許偉強資深大律師:鄭小姐個講法就係我好容易攞畀你啫,我喺電腦度一撳就出嚟喇。有咩 21 嘢理由你覺得佢會唔畀你呢?佢拒絕畀你呢? 22 鍾傑文先生:我記得佢哋回覆係咁講嘅,佢話「唔喺手喎,要搵喎」。 23 許偉強資深大律師:唔,好吖。你亦都記得你喺3 月31 號,你畀證供嗰陣時我都有問過 24 你,你話你10 月17 號同鄭小姐有呢個對話,然後去到11 月17 號,當時我問你 25 就係呢一整個月入面你冇同佢跟進過有關繼續同佢追問佢關於SDN 個問題,你當時 26 同委員會嘅答案係你冇跟進到嘅,同意嘛? 27 鍾傑文先生:當時嚟講係咁答嘅,嗄。 28 許偉強資深大律師:呢個答案係啱㗎嘛,係咪? 29 鍾傑文先生:係,SDN,冇囉。 30 許偉強資深大律師:係嘞,即係話你喺10 月17 號有問過鄭小姐,你話有問過鄭小姐。 31 鍾傑文先生:係。 32 許偉強資深大律師:整整跟住呢一個月都冇再追佢去跟進過呢件事吖嘛? 33 鍾傑文先生:SDN,係。 34 許偉強資深大律師:唔,係。好嘞,我又問下你關於你喺3 月31 號同我哋講,有關同鄭小 35 姐喺11 月21 號,2025 年11 月21 號嗰個電話交談,記得嘛? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第九天

32 本謄本由Epiq 編製 鍾傑文先生:記得。 1 許偉強資深大律師:你當時同我哋講就係話同鄭小姐11 月21 號嗰個電話交談亦都係從來冇 2 喺你之前個口供入面提及過嘅事情嚟嘅,記得嘛? 3 鍾傑文先生:記得。 4 許偉強資深大律師:你都係同我哋講番話你都係睇番啲電話紀錄,再自己回想起呢件事嘅來 5 龍去脈,然後記得番有呢一個電話嘅交談嘅,係咪呀? 6 鍾傑文先生:冇錯。 7 許偉強資深大律師:而你亦都當時喺聽證會上面,3 月31 號同大家在座各位都講得好清楚 8 話「11 月21 號呢個電話交談入面我問咗鄭小姐有關SDN 同埋亦都有關除牌紙嘅 9 問題」,同意嘛? 10 鍾傑文先生:係呀,冇錯,同意嘅。 11 許偉強資深大律師:咁我唔再你睇番你當時個答案嘞,但係基本上呢個就係你同咁多位講話 12 11 月21 號入面交談個基本嘅內容。 13 鍾傑文先生:係,冇錯。 14 許偉強資深大律師:我想你睇一睇呢個R2-1/850 至851,我哋睇一睇850,呢個就係應 15 該係你嗰啲電話紀錄。 16 鍾傑文先生:係。 17 許偉強資深大律師:就係睇番即係打出打入嗰啲紀錄。 18 鍾傑文先生:唔。 19 許偉強資深大律師:我哋呢度見到就係嘞,呢個即係亦都係你同委員會上固星期講話,有啲 20 電話紀錄令你可以記憶番啲事嘅,呢個都係其中啲紀錄嚟㗎,係嘞。 21 鍾傑文先生:係,冇錯。 22 許偉強資深大律師:我哋睇番呢一個紀錄,就如果睇850 頁,我哋見到有一個剛剛我同你提 23 及過嘅10 月17 號1 分08 秒就係剛才我哋已經討論過嗰個問題。 24 鍾傑文先生:唔嗯。 25 許偉強資深大律師:好嘞,我哋去下一頁,我哋又睇下呢一個11 月21 號亦都係你同鄭小姐 26 嗰個電話嘅即係嗰個來往紀錄,入面有一個係維持咗九秒嘅一個電話嚟嘅。 27 鍾傑文先生:係。 28 許偉強資深大律師:我想問下你,你上個禮拜嚟委員會畀口供之前你話翻查過呢啲紀錄,咁 29 呢啲紀錄你都睇到呢一個電話其實就維持咗九秒你都知㗎,你嚟嘅時候,係咪呀? 30 鍾傑文先生:係。 31 許偉強資深大律師:如果九秒嘅話,如果你話「鄭小姐,我係宏阿泰鍾先生,你好嘛?」, 32 已經差唔多九秒嘞喎。 33 鍾傑文先生:其實我同佢嘅對話真係好短。 34 許偉強資深大律師:好短,唔,好呀。 35 鍾傑文先生:係嘞,咁... 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第九天

33 本謄本由Epiq 編製 許偉強資深大律師:唔好意思,我哋就再睇一睇吖,如果根據你嗰個講法,我哋又睇下鄭小 1 姐佢提供紀錄,喺H5/6815,呢度我哋亦都係上個星期四問過鄭小姐有關呢個紀 2 錄,我哋見到2025 年11 月21 號亦都係你提及嗰個電話,15 點20 分,呢度就 3 見到宏泰消防鍾生,咁有個紅色--有個標誌喺度,鄭小姐亦都解釋咗呢一個係--以 4 佢睇番,就應該係一個miss call 嚟嘅,... 5 鍾傑文先生:係呀。 6 許偉強資深大律師:...即係冇接到嘅call 嚟嘅。你當日亦都在場聽證會,係咪呀? 7 鍾傑文先生:係。 8 許偉強資深大律師:你聽咗呢個鄭小姐個口供,你同意佢嘅講法嘛? 9 鍾傑文先生:同意。 10 許偉強資深大律師:即係有機會你當時--上個禮拜同委員會提及呢個所謂2025 年11 月21 11 號同鄭小姐呢個交談,有關你話你傾攞SDN,問佢攞除牌紙呢個交談係可能冇發生 12 過? 13 鍾傑文先生:唔係,我記憶唔係咁。 14 許偉強資深大律師:唔係,好。即係你而家-- 我想問下你,咁你係覺得呢一個電話唔係 15 miss call 嚟嘅? 16 鍾傑文先生:唔係。 17 許偉強資深大律師:唔係miss call 嚟嘅? 18 鍾傑文先生:我唔係咁樣講,我認同呢個miss call。 19 許偉強資深大律師:好,即係你係同意有個咁嘅miss call? 20 鍾傑文先生:我同意有呢個miss call。 21 許偉強資深大律師:但係你係話有另外一個交談可能喺同一日。 22 鍾傑文先生:係嘞。 23 許偉強資深大律師:係咪呀? 24 鍾傑文先生:我聽完之後呢,我聯想起,我覺得,我記得係佢覆番我電話。咁... 25 許偉強資深大律師:咁就我想問下你,喺你同委員會提交呢啲咁嘅電話紀錄入面,有冇我哋 26 可以見到當天佢有一個話覆你嘅一個電話呢? 27 鍾傑文先生:我覺得最大可能就係4 點57 分呢一個,我亦都喺呢個假期期間走咗去電訊公 28 司,因為紅日,佢覆唔到我,係六秒鐘嘅對話,我覺得好大機會係呢一個。 29 許偉強資深大律師:因為呢個我又睇唔到係邊個電話,就睇到一個叫(English 30 Spoken)... 31 鍾傑文先生:係嘞。 32 許偉強資深大律師:...六秒鐘,仲短過九秒添呢次,六秒添呀,你就又聯想番係呢個呀? 33 鍾傑文先生:冇錯。 34 許偉強資深大律師:你聯想咗好多次㗎嘞,鍾生。 35 鍾傑文先生:我係可以講嘢定係點?因為其實你之前都問過我睇完個WhatsApp,收到啲 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第九天

34 本謄本由Epiq 編製 相,我哋係冇再傾過啲相呀,入水嘅問題,點解呢?因為我已經同佢講,我要收到 1 個除牌紙同埋251 我先跟進。 2 許偉強資深大律師:鍾生。 3 鍾傑文先生:係。 4 許偉強資深大律師:唔好去另外一個問題。 5 鍾傑文先生:Okay。 6 許偉強資深大律師:我而家問緊你,你憑乜嘢去聯想呢所謂16 點57 分寫住(English 7 Spoken),冇電話號碼,六秒鐘嘅就係(English Spoken)打畀你?憑乜嘢 8 呀? 9 鍾傑文先生:我有去申請紀錄,我而家未有咋。 10 許偉強資深大律師:我想問下你,你喺4 月2 號聽完鄭小姐嗰個口供之後,... 11 鍾傑文先生:唔。 12 許偉強資深大律師:...你4 月3 號提交咗一份--你第二份證人口供,記得嘛?記得,我一 13 陣間會同你睇睇。 14 鍾傑文先生:係,五十七分鐘嗰個,係咪呀? 15 許偉強資深大律師:我一陣間會同你探討嗰個內容。 16 鍾傑文先生:好。 17 許偉強資深大律師:喺嗰個證供,第二份,4 月3 號做個證供,你有冇諗下,喂,我可能真 18 係同委員會講嗰個11 月21 號講嗰個電話,如果係miss call,可能我真係講錯 19 咗喎,我需要交代番、澄清番,你有冇諗過呀? 20 鍾傑文先生:冇呀。 21 許偉強資深大律師:冇呀。 22 鍾傑文先生:因為我淨係講個事實,我記得嘅嘢。儘量... 23 許偉強資深大律師:其實根本我哋而家睇番所有嘅紀錄,你呢一個所謂11 月21 號同鄭小姐 24 嘅電話根本就唔係事實,同意嘛? 25 鍾傑文先生:唔同意。 26 許偉強資深大律師:而你而家今日喺聽證會上面講話,你而家睇到呢個紀錄,有一個16 點 27 57 分incoming call 冇顯示電話號碼,六秒鐘就係同鄭小姐嘅對話,亦都完全 28 係冇事實基礎嘅,同意嘛? 29 鍾傑文先生:所以我有問佢攞呢一份證明囉。 30 許偉強資深大律師:唔緊要,我哋去睇另外一個話題。 31 鍾傑文先生:唔,好呀。 32 許偉強資深大律師:既然你提到五十七分鐘你同林文欣先生嗰個對話,而呢個亦都係你喺4 33 月3 號做第二份證人口供嗰陣時都嘗試去交代嗰個內容。 34 鍾傑文先生:冇錯。 35 許偉強資深大律師:今朝李大律師都有同你提過呢一個咁嘅五十七分嘅交談。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第九天

35 本謄本由Epiq 編製 鍾傑文先生:好。 1 許偉強資深大律師:不過可能客氣地即係讓我問你有關呢個問題。首先,如果我哋睇 2 H3/6797 頁,我哋睇下呢個五十七分嗰個電話內容係從何得知嘅呢?呢個就係我 3 哋喺上星期亦都有睇過,就係你喺火災發生咗嗰日嘅淩晨大概一點幾鐘就同呢一個 4 林文欣先生有過呢啲WhatsApp 嘅交談? 5 鍾傑文先生:唔,係。 6 許偉強資深大律師:其中我哋呢度睇到有一個語音對話就係寫住五十七分鐘嘅。 7 鍾傑文先生:係呀。 8 許偉強資深大律師:呢個亦都係引發咗我哋去有興趣知道嗰五十七分鐘嗰個交談個內容係乜 9 嘢喇。 10 鍾傑文先生:係。 11 許偉強資深大律師:我哋睇番你嗰個第二份證人口供,喺呢一個WS7,係,唔該晒。我哋睇 12 一睇你呢一份證人口供入面,你呢度最主要個內容都係講及,第二段開始你都係講 13 及呢個11 月27 號1 點29 AM 同林先生嗰個電話入面傾咗啲乜嘢。 14 鍾傑文先生:唔嗯。 15 許偉強資深大律師:呢度你係咁講嘅,我憶及林文欣電話中呢,就講話「鍾生,鍾生,喂, 16 你有冇宏泰或者平日時掛牌嗰啲form 呀?我想睇下。」我回應就話「吓,冇喎, 17 我瞓緊覺喎,咩嘢事呀?」佢就話公司要求佢問我--即係你喇,就去攞嗰啲掛牌 18 紙。咁我就話--呢個你話喇,我話--「我哋冇掛牌嘅喎」,我就反問,「你哋唔係 19 掛咗牌咩嘢,點解而家反問我嘅?」咁佢就表示文件喺管理處,而家就封咗入唔到 20 去,咁呀想了解多啲情況等等喇咁。 21 鍾傑文先生:唔。 22 許偉強資深大律師:你會見到你--首先,我想問你幾樣嘢嘅,就係你喺呢一份,第二份證人 23 口供好多段落都係用咗引號嘅。 24 鍾傑文先生:係。 25 許偉強資深大律師:即係你想引述番你當時講嗰啲咁嘅字句喇,係咪呀? 26 鍾傑文先生:係,唔。 27 許偉強資深大律師:你如果表示咗個引號喺度,咁相信大家都會覺得呢個就係正確,你當時 28 所用嘅字眼,你當時--你而家諗番起你當時所講嘅內容,係咪呀? 29 鍾傑文先生:係呀,我印象,我諗番起我記得我咁樣講嘅嘢囉。 30 許偉強資深大律師:唔,唔,唔,唔,唔。有冇咩嘢令到你幫助你嘅記憶可以令到你可以作 31 個引號出嚟,直情講到明,你係講緊嗰啲字嘅?有冇呀?不過,如果我哋一般嚟 32 講,我解釋畀你聽先,一般嚟講,如果我唔係好記得我當時講乜,不過大概我講呢 33 啲嘢,咁可能我會敘述番我講過啲乜嘢,一般嚟講係點樣嘅情況,我就唔會用引號 34 嘅。 35 鍾傑文先生:係。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第九天

36 本謄本由Epiq 編製 許偉強資深大律師:但係呢度用咗引號,所以我就想知道你根據啲乜嘢令到你咁有信心用番 1 個引號引番你講嗰啲字眼嘅,有冇呀? 2 鍾傑文先生:因為嗰個印象太深,點解呢?即係發生火災喇,我記得佢係咁樣講。 3 許偉強資深大律師:明白。 4 鍾傑文先生:係呀,所以我將我記得嘅嘢我講落去。 5 許偉強資深大律師:所以主要都係憑記憶喇,係咪呀? 6 鍾傑文先生:係呀,我憑記憶㗎,係呀,通常。 7 許偉強資深大律師:我睇一睇你就住你第5 段講呢度喇,「我就話『掛牌紙就係standard 8 form,係消防處網站找到,我上網search 消防裝置關閉通知書』,我續說『我 9 喺WhatsApp 打出來,你照search 就找到』咁樣,係咪呀? 10 鍾傑文先生:唔。 11 許偉強資深大律師:你喺當時--上個禮拜你嗰個口述證供嘅時候,如果我哋睇番上個禮拜, 12 3 月31 號嘅謄本。 13 鍾傑文先生:唔。 14 許偉強資深大律師:謄本第32 頁,第32 頁第16 行左右,呢度你咁講嘅,「我就話『我打 15 幾個字畀你喇,你上網搵都得㗎嘞』,咁所以我就一路WhatsApp 個電話嘅時候, 16 我一路打消防裝置關閉通知書,然後再講下佢就話『不如你搵埋畀我喇』。我話 17 『好』,咁我咪搵到嗰條,(English Spoken )咁sent 畀佢囉,一份 18 blank 嘅form,that’s all。」咁樣。 19 鍾傑文先生:唔。 20 許偉強資深大律師:呢度同--你用個字眼呢,就似乎又同你喺個第二份證供口供所引述嗰個 21 字眼就唔係一樣㗎喎。 22 鍾傑文先生:意思都係一樣。 23 許偉強資深大律師:意思一樣,不過就字眼可能唔同啫。 24 鍾傑文先生:係,係。 25 許偉強資深大律師:所以你都可唔可以同委員會講就係話,雖然你喺第二份呢個證人口供會 26 引咗啲引號,但係引號入面講嗰啲嘢呢,都係大概個內容啫,都未必一定係表示你 27 當時即係真實講咗嗰啲字眼,同唔同意呀? 28 鍾傑文先生:當然,同意。 29 許偉強資深大律師:唔,好。我想問下你就係有關啱啱我哋睇過第3 同埋第4 段,喺1897 30 頁,即係第3、第4 段,剛才我哋講過你話你哋冇掛牌,「我哋冇掛牌㗎喎,你哋 31 唔係掛咗牌咩?」所以同佢講番掛牌嘅情況。我想問下你,呢一個係咪你自己同林 32 先生第一次有提及呢一個掛牌或者係有關SDN 嘅問題? 33 鍾傑文先生:唔係,唔係。 34 許偉強資深大律師:唔係。但係因為呢度就好奇怪,因為喺你個證人口供嗰度,如果我畀番 35 你睇你嘅第一份個證人口供,喺WS2/1531 頁嘅第11 段。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第九天

37 本謄本由Epiq 編製 鍾傑文先生:唔。 1 許偉強資深大律師:呢度你就係講緊話2025 年11 月26 日下午點28 分,即係呢個係大火 2 發生之前。 3 鍾傑文先生:之前。 4 許偉強資深大律師:係咪? 5 鍾傑文先生:冇錯。 6 許偉強資深大律師:你就話林先生因為要見宏泰師傅完工,跟住致電畀你喇,就表示要儘快 7 出FS251 證書,因為消防處就係追問緊佢,電話入面你就表示連接個系統部分唔 8 能夠出證書,因為宏泰工人係檢查時間就發現消防水缸冇儲水,而且供水同埋呢個 9 消防泵個電源亦都被關閉。於呢個通話過程中,林先生就話因為嗰個消防泵就畀維 10 修師傅關掉,所以你就要求佢提供掛牌紙,但係佢未能即時提供,並表示會稍候交 11 於本人。 12 鍾傑文先生:係。 13 許偉強資深大律師:我想問下你,如果真係你講嘅係啱,即係話喺大火發生--咁啱喺大火之 14 前嗰個下午1 點28 分,你有同佢提過關於呢啲掛牌紙嗰啲問題,如果我哋睇番嗰 15 日個淩晨,即係11 月27 號個淩晨,其實係你唔需要再同佢講番有關掛牌紙個情況 16 嘞喎? 17 鍾傑文先生:點解呀?因為我好驚訝,佢問我攞,明明係話你畀我。 18 許偉強資深大律師:咩嘢話? 19 鍾傑文先生:我驚訝佢問我攞,所以我話「唔係你哋掛咗牌咩?」 20 許偉強資深大律師:唔,好呀,我哋又睇下你第9 段。 21 鍾傑文先生:好呀。 22 許偉強資深大律師:唔好意思,應該係你第二份口供嘅第9 段。 23 鍾傑文先生:唔。 24 許偉強資深大律師:呢度第8 段佢就話「佢表示好擔心,今次火災好大鑊,並問係咪大維修 25 消防公司掛咗牌?就我同佢都冇責任。我記得我講過,我只是做年檢同維修,大維 26 修嘅消防工程我冇參與過,亦不清楚。」「我怪責佢」,呢個你講喇,「點解明知 27 掛咗牌都唔事先同我哋講聲,只係識一直催我們開工,到我哋發現有問題先講。」 28 停一停先呀。 29 鍾傑文先生:。哦。 30 許偉強資深大律師:第一句,你話「點解明知掛咗牌都唔事先同我哋講聲」,呢個係你同佢 31 講吖嘛? 32 鍾傑文先生:係呀。 33 許偉強資深大律師:喂,呢個唔係好合理,因為根據你嘅口供同埋你同事嘅口供,其實你都 34 知道10 月16 號之後,根據剛才唐先生嘅口供,係咪呀? 35 鍾傑文先生:唔。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第九天

38 本謄本由Epiq 編製 許偉強資深大律師:其實都知道掛咗牌㗎喇,點解你話「都唔事先同我講一聲?」根本你係 1 知道掛咗牌㗎喎。 2 鍾傑文先生:我可以解釋。 3 許偉強資深大律師:係呀。 4 鍾傑文先生:因為我覺得如果你哋系統冧咗,係咪我未安排之前,你要同我講「喂,我哋掛 5 緊牌㗎喎,你做唔做得㗎?點樣做㗎?」而唔係一直追我哋開工,到我哋發現到, 6 咦,冇水嘅,問佢先講囉。呢個我嘅感覺嚟㗎。 7 許偉強資深大律師:係,呢度--唔好意思呀,我想了解清楚,鍾生。 8 鍾傑文先生:係,所以有咁嘅對話囉。 9 許偉強資深大律師:因為呢度你冇講過剛才嗰啲說話,「喂,掛咩嘢牌㗎?做唔做得㗎?」 10 你呢度你唔係咁講。你呢個... 11 鍾傑文先生:因為呢句係... 12 許偉強資深大律師:你聽我講埋先。 13 鍾傑文先生:唔,唔。 14 許偉強資深大律師:你呢個講法係話「點解明知掛咗牌,都唔事先同我哋講聲?」 15 鍾傑文先生:係喇。 16 許偉強資深大律師:即係你係責怪緊佢,「點解你唔話畀我哋知掛咗牌呢個事情呀?」係咪 17 呀? 18 鍾傑文先生:係呀。 19 許偉強資深大律師:但係你知㗎,掛牌你知㗎。你10 月已經知道--11 月你都知道。 20 鍾傑文先生:我意思係10 月開工前點解唔講畀我聽,我當然,我個對話,我同佢已經 21 understood㗎喇。 22 許偉強資深大律師:唔,好呀。即係你係講緊話10 月開工之前冇話畀你聽,係咪呀? 23 鍾傑文先生:係嘞,係嘞。 24 許偉強資深大律師:呢度你又冇講過話,你係問緊佢「10 月開工之前點解唔事先同我哋 25 講?」所以你唔係咁講喎,你係講緊「點解明知掛咗牌,都唔事先同我哋講聲?」 26 喎。 27 鍾傑文先生:我對話內容入面冇講呢樣嘢,我哋大家understood。 28 許偉強資深大律師:明白。 29 鍾傑文先生:好呀。真係咁簡單㗎咋。 30 許偉強資深大律師:唔。呢度你話--褪一步嚟講相反。 31 鍾傑文先生:好。 32 許偉強資深大律師:如果我哋呢度睇番你所講,話你怪責佢,「點解明知掛咗牌都唔事先同 33 我哋講聲?」根據你嘅口供,你10 月、11 月都好,所謂問佢追嗰啲掛牌紙、 34 SDN,又問佢話如果完工就畀番個FS251 畀佢喇咁樣,呢啲咁嘅對話。所以你成份 35 --第二份證人口供都冇話到話「喂,我追過你哋攞SDN,追過你哋攞FS251 喎, 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第九天

39 本謄本由Epiq 編製 點解唔畀我哋呀?咁耐都唔畀我哋嘅?」冇喎,係咪呀?同唔同意? 1 鍾傑文先生:同意。 2 許偉強資深大律師:冇呀。我想問下你,再一次,鍾生。 3 鍾傑文先生:係。 4 許偉強資深大律師:其實事實上作為一個即係註冊嘅消防裝置承辦商,當時其實你哋公司, 5 我哋講緊10 月、11 月嗰個情況,你哋公司都進行緊係有關消防喉轆同埋消防警報 6 系統嘅維修工程㗎嘛,同意嘛? 7 鍾傑文先生:係,同意。 8 許偉強資深大律師:咁你亦都喺10 月同埋11 月,亦都知道咗嗰個消防水泵,嗰個消防缸冇 9 水。 10 鍾傑文先生:唔。 11 許偉強資深大律師:同埋呢一個有關消防嗰個泵房個總掣被關掉呢個情況㗎嘛? 12 鍾傑文先生:唔,係呀,冇錯。 13 許偉強資深大律師:唔。你同唔同意就係首先一般嚟講,作為一個註冊消防承辦商,你去做 14 呢啲維修、去做檢查呢,都需要確保呢啲消防裝置係喺一個良好運作嘅狀態㗎嘛, 15 同意嘛? 16 鍾傑文先生:確保,係㗎。 17 許偉強資深大律師:係咪呀? 18 鍾傑文先生:嗄。咁如果你知道其實嗰個水同埋有關個電源都冇嘅,... 19 鍾傑文先生:係。 20 許偉強資深大律師:...呢個咁嘅情況如果維持得越長,對於住戶個風險亦都係越高嘅,同 21 意嘛? 22 鍾傑文先生:係。 23 許偉強資深大律師:同意嘛? 24 鍾傑文先生:同意。 25 許偉強資深大律師:我記得我問過你呢,就係話--上個星期我問過你就係,當你知道咗冇 26 水、冇電嘅時候,係咪應該畀番啲意見出嚟,就係話,睇下點樣可以即係做一啲改 27 善嘅情況,唔好話拖咁耐之後都冇水、冇電。你當時畀我個答案就話你唔想多事, 28 即係行內個做法都係唔想多事嘅。因為已經有咗另外一個就住大廈翻新嗰個工程嘅 29 一個消防裝置承辦商,都已經有委聘咗,所以對佢哋嘅工作你就唔應該多事去過問 30 嘞咁樣,記得嘛? 31 鍾傑文先生:係,因為我唔知佢做咩嘢吖嘛。 32 許偉強資深大律師:係嘞。但係我想問你就係,呢個係佢哋嘅工作喇。 33 鍾傑文先生:唔。 34 許偉強資深大律師:你嘅工作就係去維修、去檢視有關例如大廈嘅消防喉轆、大廈嘅消防警 35 報系統嗰個運作嘅情況㗎嘛,呢個你同意㗎,係嘛? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第九天

40 本謄本由Epiq 編製 鍾傑文先生:同意。 1 許偉強資深大律師:當你知道冇水、冇電可能會影響到呢一個運作嘅情況嘅時候,我今日再 2 問你,你同唔同意,其實你都應該有責任去跟進一下有關嘅情況幾時可以令到你可 3 以就住呢啲維修嘅工程去做測試,幾時可以完成個工程呀,同意嘛? 4 鍾傑文先生:所以我一直問佢攞固除牌紙同埋251 囉。 5 許偉強資深大律師:唔。其實個情況會唔會係咁呀?其實基本上你係知道你係需要去問除牌 6 紙同埋SDN 個情況,但係其實你係冇跟進到呢個問題,所以你就喺呢個聽證會上面 7 講出咗有關10 月17 號、11 月22 號呢啲所謂嘅電話紀錄,嚟去話你有鄭小姐追 8 過,希望咁樣呢,令大家可以接受,嚟到減低咗你要負責嗰個程度,同唔同意? 9 鍾傑文先生:唔同意。 10 許偉強資深大律師:喺你同林先生喺大火發生之後嗰個淩晨嗰個對話,發生喺大概1 點鐘之 11 後嗰個對話,當時我相信你同所有香港人都一樣,個心情都係即係好悲傷,亦都好 12 憂心,因為有件咁大嘅火災發生咗。 13 鍾傑文先生:係。 14 許偉強資深大律師:喺你嘅只供入面,第一份畀警方嘅口供,甚至係第二份嘅口供,尤其是 15 第二份個口供,你只係一路就將嗰個責怪嗰樣嘢,就係話,我一路責怪緊呢個管理 16 公司呀,問佢點解唔畀我呢樣,唔畀我嗰樣。我想問下喺呢一個咁嘅你同林先生呢 17 個淩晨嘅電話交談嘅時候,或者之前,或者之後,當整個香港都係憂心緊呢個問題 18 嘅時候,你有冇諗過自己有冇邊方面係做得唔合乎理想? 19 鍾傑文先生:我覺得我自己真係盡咗力㗎。 20 許偉強資深大律師:我哋不如睇一睇最新由消防處嗰邊嘅助理處長佢第--我冇其他問題,唔 21 該。 22 陸啟康法官:唔該晒,有冇其他涉事方?唔該,孫大律師。 23 孫靖乾資深大律師:係,主席,兩位委員,我會有少少補充問題。係,鍾先生。 24 鍾傑文先生:你好。 25 孫靖乾資深大律師:首先頭先你有講到就話喺呢一個2025 年3 月份做完年檢之後隔咗冇幾 26 耐,咁就其實都有發生個情況,就係你哋有出到一個shutdown 嘅notice 嘅? 27 鍾傑文先生:冇錯。 28 孫靖乾資深大律師:我就想同你睇一睇有關嘅情況,或者我哋睇一睇番--其實喺個文件夾 29 B2 裏面就係會有相關嘅文件添嘅,我首先想同你睇一睇B2,如果我哋去睇一睇嗰 30 個shutdown notice 就係1392 頁,呢個當然都係喺頭先另外一個文件冊,即 31 係喺個R 嘅文件冊度有,但係其實都係同一份。我哋見到呢個B2/1392 頁就係關 32 於呢一個宏仁閣,如果我哋再落少少,我哋見到由你去填寫嘅一個即係(English 33 Spoken),呢度我哋睇到呢一份文件,當時個第二部分同第三部分係仲未填嘅, 34 見唔見到呀? 35 鍾傑文先生:係,冇錯。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第九天

41 本謄本由Epiq 編製 孫靖乾資深大律師:咁呢度第一部分填嘅時候,嗰個時間都係應該你喺應該係4 月3 號嘅時 1 候去填寫嘅,係咪? 2 鍾傑文先生:係,冇錯。 3 孫靖乾資深大律師:係。咁呢度我哋就會睇得到,你上面--如果我哋再睇番,其實相關係真 4 係關閉嗰個系統,其實就係一個消防栓同埋嗰個喉轆嘅系統? 5 鍾傑文先生:冇錯。 6 孫靖乾資深大律師:咁你當時--頭先去回答呢一個獨立委員會嘅代表大律師嘅問題嘅時候, 7 就有講話其實無論係你或者係宏泰嘅同事,其實就冇親自就去睇過相關嗰個--無論 8 係一般嗰個泵房又或者嗰個消防嘅--加壓嗰個消防泵房,就冇進入嗰兩個泵房裏面 9 去睇過個情況,係咪? 10 鍾傑文先生:冇錯。 11 孫靖乾資深大律師:所以當時你去做嗰個嘅關閉通知書,就只不過係話你認為,或者係你哋 12 嘅同事認為或者相信,極有可能嗰個相關嘅嗰個泵可能應該都係已經關閉咗? 13 鍾傑文先生:唔係,我哋係冇刻意關閉,而我哋年檢嘅時候試到得,我哋係覺得有個風險嗰 14 個水缸會越嚟越少,所以我哋剔咗消防栓喉轆系統。而呢一個SDN 係要連埋個 15 (English Spoken)嘅251 一齊睇嘅,(English Spoken)251 我哋講話 16 係缺水,我哋係冇講過閂過消防系統,其實呢個就係我哋對入SDN 嗰個風險評估嘅 17 認知嚟嘅。 18 孫靖乾資深大律師:或者我哋逐步逐步嚟先,你頭先係有--除咗講嗰個消防喉轆嘅嗰個情 19 況,或者話驚嗰個消防水缸可能係缺水。 20 鍾傑文先生:唔。 21 孫靖乾資深大律師:你亦都有講過話,因為其實係嗰個其中一個喉係爆咗嘅? 22 鍾傑文先生:上水喉,冇錯。 23 孫靖乾資深大律師:嗄,上水喉。所以你頭先亦都有講過,話如果個上水喉爆咗,唔去閂嗰 24 個相關嗰個泵嘅掣,或者譬如上水泵嗰個掣,咁就有可能會係造成就會係會有即係 25 水浸嘅情況,係咪? 26 鍾傑文先生:唔。 27 孫靖乾資深大律師:係,所以你係咪基於呢樣嘢,你係當時亦都係假設咗,其實因為佢爆咗 28 個上水喉,所以你係假設咗應該係有人係會將嗰個上水泵都係會閂咗佢,... 29 鍾傑文先生:係。 30 孫靖乾資深大律師:...以免就係會--即係個喉如果你裂咗,你個泵唔閂,就繼續可能會係 31 漏水或者係有水浸嘅情況? 32 鍾傑文先生:係。 33 孫靖乾資深大律師:係咪?即係... 34 鍾傑文先生:而我哋睇到係冇上水。 35 孫靖乾資深大律師:所以呢個就係我想同你澄清番,呢個係咪都係你哋雖然冇--你哋冇實際 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第九天

42 本謄本由Epiq 編製 去睇個情況,但係你假設咗有咁樣樣嘅閂咗個上水泵,所以亦都係其中一個原因, 1 你係會去做嗰個消防裝置嘅關閉通知書嘅其中一個原因? 2 鍾傑文先生:係,因為我哋檢查到啲喉有問題。 3 孫靖乾資深大律師:好。跟住我就想同你睇一睇埋,就係你頭先有講過就話有一啲嘅消防處 4 嘅同事係有打過電話畀你。 5 鍾傑文先生:係。 6 孫靖乾資深大律師:咁我想你睇一睇,就係我哋不如直接去到1398 頁,1398。1398 頁我 7 哋睇到係一個消防處同事佢所填寫嘅一個關於消防裝置關閉通知書,頭先我哋睇到 8 嗰個通知書嘅情況,咁你可以睇一睇到,就係佢呢度有講過就話,第二段嗰度就 9 話,係佢當時呢個消防員就係亦都係當時係當值,咁就係喺呢一個嘅4 月4 號以及 10 4 月7 號,咁而且佢喺收到呢一個嘅消防裝置嘅關閉通知書嘅時候,咁係針對當時 11 嗰個應該係相關嗰個係應該係宏--我睇番應該係宏仁,係,宏仁閣就係做咗一個嘅 12 現場嘅一個勘察或者(English Spoken),係咪? 13 鍾傑文先生:唔。 14 孫靖乾資深大律師:然之後佢亦都有講過,就話有一啲嘅跟進嘅行動,咁當時實際上,據你 15 嘅記憶,你冇去過現場,你有冇印象係喺你哋做咗嗰個嘅SDN 之後,的而且確消防 16 處係有派同事係去過嗰個宏仁閣係做過一個嘅勘察嘅。 17 鍾傑文先生:佢勘察之前有打過電話畀我。 18 孫靖乾資深大律師:係。 19 鍾傑文先生:佢就話佢會去咁樣囉。 20 孫靖乾資深大律師:係,所以你知道佢有去做嗰個勘察? 21 鍾傑文先生:佢咁樣講,係。 22 孫靖乾資深大律師:有冇啲同事係話番畀你知係有做過勘察,定係你純粹都係經嗰個電話, 23 所以你得知有呢個情況? 24 鍾傑文先生:消防處唔會同我哋講佢做啲咩嘢,佢淨係話佢去就去,咁佢唔會覆番我哋任何 25 嘢,佢想去之前了解下個情況咁。 26 孫靖乾資深大律師:明白。咁我想你再睇多一個就係下一頁,1399 頁,係一個嘅供詞,就 27 係嗰個都係大埔消防局嘅同事,有一個姓李嘅消防員所做嗰個供詞,佢就話喺呢個 28 4 月7 號,佢係接獲嗰個當值嘅隊長嘅指示,就前往呢一個宏仁閣就係派發一份關 29 於消防裝置關閉嘅建議信。然之後喺同一日,就係喺大約2 點25 分嘅時候,去到 30 呢個宏仁閣管理處之後,就係去向在場嘅管理人員就係遞交嗰個建議信,同埋解釋 31 嗰個信件嘅內容,並且係儘快根據指示係要完成消防裝置嘅維修工程,同時係於受 32 影響嘅地方要放置一個滅火筒,以確保消防安全。咁亦都有講就話喺派發信件期 33 間,佢亦都有觀察到係喺受影響範圍係放置咗滅火筒。呢一個情況就係消防員嗰個 34 口供裏面所講,咁你--應該係消防員去做嗰個現場嗰個勘察嘅時候,你就--或者係 35 宏泰就冇同事在場嘅? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第九天

43 本謄本由Epiq 編製 鍾傑文先生:係,冇嘅,冇嘅。 1 孫靖乾資深大律師:但係呢度提及到嗰個信,個建議信,你哋應該係有冇收過? 2 鍾傑文先生:冇。 3 孫靖乾資深大律師:冇收過。咁我同你澄清番,我哋應該見到就係1394 頁,1394 頁就係 4 應該係將嗰個信就係畀係話嗰個裝置或保存有關消防裝置嘅處所嘅佔用人或者擁有 5 人,即係呢封信就當然應該管理處就應該會有收過。 6 鍾傑文先生:係。 7 孫靖乾資深大律師:咁管理處有冇同事係同你哋聯絡過,話收到一封咁樣嘅由消防處寄嚟嘅 8 信件? 9 鍾傑文先生:佢好似冇乜特別講,但係我記得我同佢通話嘅過程裏面,我有問過係有--「使 10 唔使加臨時滅火筒?」咁佢話「唔使嘞」咁樣,咁之後我哋冇報過價,唔使我哋 11 嘅,嗄,呢個我記得嘅,嗄。 12 孫靖乾資深大律師:即係簡單啲嚟講,就你印象中你就唔記得係有見過呢一封信? 13 鍾傑文先生:我冇見過。 14 孫靖乾資深大律師:亦都冇印象係管理處有同事同你講過關於呢封信嘅內容? 15 鍾傑文先生:係。 16 孫靖乾資深大律師:好。好,請等一等。好,鍾先生,或者我都問多你一個--一方面嘅問 17 題。 18 鍾傑文先生:好。 19 孫靖乾資深大律師:即係或者係對你公平少少,因為其實喺姜先生,即係話消防處嘅姜先生 20 其實係做過一份嘅--第四份嘅證人供詞,咁我可能都會有其中一個段落問一問你, 21 咁嗰個係呢個WS8 嘅。咁WS8 就如果我哋去到呢個第1913 頁嘅最下面嗰度,咁 22 我哋見到有個標題就係講呢個Victory,即係宏泰嘅。 23 鍾傑文先生:唔。 24 孫靖乾資深大律師:然後我哋再去1914 頁,咁1914 頁裏面,姜先生就有去解釋嗰個情 25 況,咁簡單啲嚟講,佢就係認為無論係根據呢個消防處嘅有一個2021 年嘅第一份 26 通函,又或者你哋作為一個註冊嘅消防裝置嘅承辦商,喺你哋係發現到其實係相關 27 嗰個宏福苑嗰八座大廈其實有關嘅消防裝置,譬如包括個泵房裏面一啲嘅掣,以至 28 係嗰個警報系統﹛因為嗰個總掣閂咗,佢哋係唔運作,咁消防處個立場係覺得你哋 29 都應該有責任就係要去--第一,即係通知番消防處;第二,亦都係應該係向其他-- 30 即係譬如話而家另一個嘅註冊嘅消防裝置承辦商起碼去作出一啲嘅跟進,你會唔會 31 同意你哋喺呢方面係應該要盡呢個責任,你同意定唔同意? 32 鍾傑文先生:我覺得我係冇辦法咁樣去做,點解呢,入SDN 係我哋要填好多嘢,咁除咗話開 33 始日期我冇辦法可以知之外,咁我連個(English Spoken)嘅251 我都搵唔 34 到,原因係已經閂咗,你唔知乜嘢原因閂。而入SDN 係唯一一個方法去通知消防 35 處,我哋亦都冇辦法可以攞到啲文件,除咗問管理處,咁管理處就同另外一間可能 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第九天

44 本謄本由Epiq 編製 有合約--佢係有條件可以唔畀我哋,如果個責任係喺我哋嗰度,我哋係咪應該有權 1 利可以盡到我哋嘅責任? 2 孫靖乾資深大律師:鍾先生,我或者直接同你去睇一睇嗰個相關嘅其中一個文件,就有個 3 (English Spoken)嘅。 4 鍾傑文先生:唔。 5 孫靖乾資深大律師:咁我哋可能去睇一睇B2 文件冊/第882 頁,呢個就係其中一個關於即 6 係話你如果係對一啲嘅相關即係消防裝置,你譬如話去檢查,或者做測試,同埋係 7 做一個即係維修嘅時候嘅一個適用嘅一個嘅(English Spoken),即係都係一 8 個嘅守則嚟嘅,咁呢個你相信作為一個註冊嘅消防裝置嘅承辦商,你應該都清楚知 9 道有呢一個咁樣嘅守則,係咪? 10 鍾傑文先生:唔。 11 孫靖乾資深大律師:咁我就想同你去睇一睇,就係如果我哋去一去第884 頁嘅,如果我哋去 12 睇一睇上面可能第1.16 嗰個段落嗰度,佢就有講過話,如果喺一個大廈裏面嘅一 13 啲消防裝置,係即係包括譬如話係一啲消防喉轆嘅系統,或者係警報嘅系統,咁如 14 果佢係有任何嘅關閉,而嗰個關閉係過夜或者係超過二十四小時嘅話,咁其實呢一 15 個註冊嘅消防嘅承辦商係應該就係要係去通知,即係(English Spoken)呢個 16 消防處,即係(English Spoken)。咁當時嚟講,其實譬如無論係喺2025 年 17 10 月份或者11 月份,你同唔同意第一,宏泰的而且確係針對一啲嘅消防喉轆嘅系 18 統,或者係嗰個嘅警報系統,其實都係有一啲執修嘅工程係要進行? 19 鍾傑文先生:係。 20 孫靖乾資深大律師:而喺進行呢兩項嘅執修嘅過程期間,宏泰亦都的而且確係發現其實相關 21 嗰個系統,係即係包括頭先我哋講嘅嗰個總掣,其實亦都係應該係有關閉,而且你 22 哋應該知道肯定係關閉超過二十四小時,同唔同意? 23 鍾傑文先生:同意已經被關閉。 24 孫靖乾資深大律師:嗄,已經被關閉。所以喺咁樣嘅情況,你會唔會同意,如果係根據相關 25 嘅嗰個守則,當你係做緊相關工程,而你得悉咗相關嘅工程亦都有咁嘅關閉嘅情況 26 嘅時候,你係有責任就係要去通知個消防處,即係根據嗰個相關守則,你同唔同 27 意? 28 鍾傑文先生:我唔係好同意,因為我睇呢段文字佢話“(English Spoken)”,我覺得 29 呢個(English Spoken)係一個主動嘅(English Spoken)呢樣嘢,如果 30 你喺個工程期間,你可能係發現檢查,佢本身係一個狀態係得嘅,然後你要閂佢, 31 可能佢爆咗喉,或者可能你要做維修,好似而家宏福苑個情況,你要閂佢,你呢個 32 情況你係有責任通知佢,而我哋作為承辦商,一直以嚟個理解就係,我哋要確保係 33 咪有人跟足程序做咗呢件事,所以我哋一路都有咁去問,呢個係我哋嘅認知。 34 孫靖乾資深大律師:鍾先生,唔緊要,我就唔會喺呢度同你去爭論,咁呢個我純粹為咗公平 35 起見,就係向你指出消防處嘅立場,咁同埋你頭先嗰個立場我哋都唔同意,咁我哋 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第九天

45 本謄本由Epiq 編製 就有需要嘅時候我哋再去處理。咁主席同埋兩位委員,我暫時就冇其他嘅問題。 1 陸啟康法官:係,涉事方,係。 2 林樂夫大律師:主席,係,我有好少嘅覆問嘅。 3 陸啟康法官:唔。 4 林樂夫大律師:唔該。鍾生,咁就啱啱就孫資深大律師同你提過有個消防局喺2025 年4 月 5 4 日,有個消防員打電話畀你嘅。 6 鍾傑文先生:係。 7 林樂夫大律師:係咪?咁我哋睇一睇呢個文件,咁就係C3-1/第1796 頁。咁你見到--我 8 哋去睇一睇個名先,咁呢個係有位林斯穎(譯音)嘅消防隊長嘅證人口供,我哋落 9 到--落去呢一頁嘅最底部分,咁第4 段嘅,佢咁講嘅,因為佢呢度話「同日」,咁 10 我哋見到喺第2 段就係2025 年4 月4 日,咁跟住繼續一路落去,就話「同日晏晝 11 兩點半,我致電SDN 上的填寫人鍾傑文,電話中對方向我講,宏福苑宏仁閣的消防 12 栓系統失效,所以該系統會關閉進行維修」,咁你睇一睇,睇完佢嗰個--呢個證供 13 之後,咁你有冇--即係你係咪咁同佢講,係點樣? 14 鍾傑文先生:其實就應該佢問,佢話收到嗰個SDN 咁樣,咁都係了解個情況,我諗佢 15 (English Spoken)都係覺得係宏仁閣嗰個消防系統失效,佢亦都有問過我啲 16 泵有冇閂嘅,我記得就,因為好(English Spoken)嘅,咁我就當時嚟講,我 17 都講過,個泵係冇閂嘅,咁係擔心嘅啫,咁水缸冇水。呢度就有少少唔同嘅,因為 18 上水系統係唔屬於九大系統之一嚟,咁其實如果正常佢上得滿水,就唔需要掛牌 19 嘅,所以我當時都係咁同佢講,咁即係話畀佢聽嗰個情況係缺水,咁上水喉爆咗咁 20 樣囉。咁其實佢打得嚟就係,每一次我哋嘅經驗就係,我哋入SDN,個阿Sir 就覺 21 得係我哋閂咗個系統㗎嘞,係,所以會問我哋囉。 22 林樂夫大律師:係,咁去下一個提問。 23 鍾傑文先生:係。 24 林樂夫大律師:咁就係較早前李大律師就同你睇過4 月3 號,Victory Fire 嘅報價嘅。 25 鍾傑文先生:係。 26 林樂夫大律師:因為你哋兩位就討論話有相,你提過,係咪? 27 鍾傑文先生:係,係。 28 林樂夫大律師:咁我就發現,喺H1 嘅文件夾,第37 同38 頁有一份文件嘅,H1 嘅37 29 頁,咁就已經好早,ISS 已經披露嘅文件嚟嘅,37 頁我哋見到2025 年4 月3 30 號,咁就有Victory Fire 嘅報價,咁個總價係8,500 鈫,我哋見到,係咪? 31 鍾傑文先生:唔。 32 林樂夫大律師:跟住就喺38 頁,咁喺報價單有個編號對應,我哋見到W072/26110-A1 33 嘅,我哋對番呢個號碼,就37 頁嘅右上角,我哋會見到同一個號碼,係咪? 34 鍾傑文先生:係,係。 35 林樂夫大律師:A1 點解? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第九天

46 本謄本由Epiq 編製 鍾傑文先生:(English Spoken)過。 1 林樂夫大律師:咩嘢意思,(English Spoken)過? 2 鍾傑文先生:即係佢呢個報價單係有一個(English Spoken)嘅。 3 林樂夫大律師:好,跟住就我哋對應番就嗰個號碼,咁呢度有啲相嘅,咁呢啲相係咪就係你 4 啱啱喺即係李大律師問你問題嘅時候提過嗰啲相? 5 鍾傑文先生:係,冇錯。 6 林樂夫大律師:好,主席,我冇其他問題,唔該。 7 陸啟康法官:唔該晒。係,李大律師。 8 李澍桓大律師:好短一個覆問跟進嘅問題,頭先林大律師同埋或者孫大律師都有問過你關於 9 SDN 嗰個問題。 10 鍾傑文先生:係。 11 李澍桓大律師:咁以我嘅理解,你就話即係如果我閂,仲要閂超過二十四個小時,咁我就有 12 責任要通知消防處,係咪? 13 鍾傑文先生:係,係。 14 李澍桓大律師:咁就所以--喺我哋嗰個文件R5 嗰度,所以點解我哋見到喺--頭先好似都有 15 畀你睇過,就有張4 月3 號嘅一個文件,係咪? 16 鍾傑文先生:係。 17 李澍桓大律師:我其實純粹想問你,因為對於究竟係邊個閂,然之後即係關閉個系統,然之 18 後就引致個責任嗰度,至少起碼我想了解清楚你嘅認知。 19 鍾傑文先生:唔。 20 李澍桓大律師:因為就住4 月或者5 月落去做執修嘅呢一次工程。 21 鍾傑文先生:係。 22 李澍桓大律師:根據你一路作供嘅講法,就係你冇去搞過個上水泵嘅,係咪? 23 鍾傑文先生:係,冇錯。 24 李澍桓大律師:因為你就話如果上水泵唔係運作正常嘅,就唔會搞到出現漏水,係咪? 25 鍾傑文先生:係,係。 26 李澍桓大律師:既然有漏水嘅,自自然然就會有人走去閂咗個上水泵,等佢唔好繼續漏水, 27 所以亦都唔係你去閂? 28 鍾傑文先生:係。 29 李澍桓大律師:到落去換完個工程,做完嘞,換咗新嘅喉管,你就話雖然之前有報價,不過 30 後屘決定都係唔使做,我就平500 鈫畀佢,係咪? 31 鍾傑文先生:係,係。 32 李澍桓大律師:所以你亦都冇去做番上水或者開番個泵嘅情況嘅,係咪? 33 鍾傑文先生:係,係。 34 李澍桓大律師:亦都冇檢查過嘅。咁如果根據你嘅講法,咪由頭到尾你都冇掂過個水泵? 35 鍾傑文先生:係。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第九天

47 本謄本由Epiq 編製 李澍桓大律師:咁你其實如果你嗰個講法,其實你唔需要入SDN㗎? 1 鍾傑文先生:唔可以咁樣理解。 2 李澍桓大律師:我都覺得係,但係因為你就話邊個要掂過去閂,就要入個SDN 吖嘛? 3 鍾傑文先生:個性質有少少唔同,好似以呢個情況嚟講,係天然損壞嘅,okay,咁亦都知 4 道,喂,天然損壞,佢通知咗我哋,咁喺消防處嘅角度已經係停咗個系統--冇停系 5 統嘅一開頭,咁我哋發現咗,停咗系統,要超過二十四小時,我哋咪做呢個SDN, 6 但係宏福苑八座嗰個情況就完全唔同,八座嘅消防泵嘅刀掣係畀人特登閂嘅,呢個 7 唔係一個天然損壞,係有人去處理緊、做緊個工程,所以--係,就係咁。 8 李澍桓大律師:試下聚焦少少,我... 9 鍾傑文先生:Okay。 10 李澍桓大律師:當然,11 月發生好多不幸嘅事件,意外好,人為好,呢個我哋會再考慮㗎 11 嘞。 12 鍾傑文先生:唔。 13 李澍桓大律師:但係我淨係想問你,4 月黃先生落去檢查,咦,真係漏水喎,咁就報價,報 14 價完就5 月落去修理吖嘛,係咪? 15 鍾傑文先生:係,係。 16 李澍桓大律師:4 月好,5 月好,根據你而家作供,由頭到尾你都冇去睇過個泵㗎嘛,呢個 17 係你話畀我知嘅證供嚟㗎嘛。 18 鍾傑文先生:係,係,冇錯。 19 李澍桓大律師:所以你冇開過,亦都冇閂過㗎嘛? 20 鍾傑文先生:係。 21 李澍桓大律師:所以我純粹想了解,因為似乎你有陣時個講法,你又會話邊一個閂,就要邊 22 一個入個SDN,所以我個疑問就係既然今次你都冇閂過,又冇開過,你哋都冇人去 23 掂過? 24 鍾傑文先生:我哋係有處理過個FS251 ,點樣為之處理個FS251 ?我哋係檢查到係 25 (English Spoken)啲喉,係咪?呢個就係真正原因點解要關閉,水缸冇水, 26 okay。咁我哋做個工程要做啲咩嘢呢?完成個換喉,睇到水缸係滿水,所以係呢啲 27 係我哋做嘅嘢,我咪除牌囉,對應番。即係... 28 李澍桓大律師:搞清楚先,因為如果唔係就越講越亂㗎嘞。 29 鍾傑文先生:Okay。 30 李澍桓大律師:你派咗一個阿強嘅員工,外判工。 31 鍾傑文先生:係。 32 李澍桓大律師:簡單啲嚟講,佢淨係落去換番條穿咗嘅水喉? 33 鍾傑文先生:換咗嗰層喉,係。 34 李澍桓大律師:嗰個水管吖嘛,係咪? 35 鍾傑文先生:係,係。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第九天

48 本謄本由Epiq 編製 李澍桓大律師:阿強就冇去閂個泵或者開個泵? 1 鍾傑文先生:係,冇錯。 2 李澍桓大律師:係咪? 3 鍾傑文先生:唔。 4 李澍桓大律師:4 月嘅時候,黃先生亦都冇去開個泵或者閂個泵㗎嘛,係咪? 5 鍾傑文先生:係,係。 6 李澍桓大律師:但係當然,喺R5/1149 頁,我哋就知道你就住今次因為要去真真正正人哋 7 接受咗報價,跟住你就如期5 月27 號就落去修理吖嘛,呢次就係阿強去㗎嘛,係 8 咪? 9 鍾傑文先生:係,冇錯,係。 10 李澍桓大律師:咁而呢一度,呢個--我哋而家1149 頁見到嘅呢個係一個叫關閉通知書,就 11 係我哋成日講嘅SDN 吖嘛? 12 鍾傑文先生:冇錯,冇錯。 13 李澍桓大律師:根據第一部分就係話要需要多過二十四小時去關閉個消防栓同埋個喉轆? 14 鍾傑文先生:係,冇錯。 15 李澍桓大律師:當然,其實實際上如果要關閉嘅就係關閉嗰個上水泵,係咪? 16 鍾傑文先生:係,係。 17 李澍桓大律師:因為你要閂咗個水,等佢--原本就係閂咗個水,咁你可以唔使一路出水,就 18 係換條喉吖嘛,係咪? 19 鍾傑文先生:係,係。 20 李澍桓大律師:正常嘅情況? 21 鍾傑文先生:係,冇錯。 22 李澍桓大律師:但係喺呢個情況入面,根據你所講,阿強從來冇去做搞過個泵㗎嘛? 23 鍾傑文先生:係,冇錯。 24 李澍桓大律師:因為你理所當然地,梗係有人已經閂咗㗎喇嘛? 25 鍾傑文先生:係。 26 李澍桓大律師:所以我純粹想搞清楚,點解今次你又會入個關閉通知書呢? 27 鍾傑文先生:因為我頭先都講,呢個係一個天然意外,我哋知道一定係... 28 李澍桓大律師:天然意外自己爆條喉,要換,同有人唔小心鑿穿咗條喉,人為意外,你去 29 換,有咩嘢分別? 30 鍾傑文先生:有好大分別。 31 李澍桓大律師:係,點解?有咩嘢分別? 32 鍾傑文先生:因為我哋確信佢當時嚟講冇搵人掛牌嘅,但係我哋喺做個工程嘅期間,我哋見 33 到個嘢,佢已經有人主動閂晒,如果佢冇人掛牌嘅話,係佢唔合乎程序,其實我哋 34 都會睇番嗰間公司,叫佢哋「你要跟番程序要掛牌㗎,我哋幫你唔到」。 35 李澍桓大律師:不如咁樣,簡單啲,唔糾纏。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第九天

49 本謄本由Epiq 編製 鍾傑文先生:嗄。 1 李澍桓大律師:喺今次5 月27 號嘅呢個修理事件上面,可唔可以咁樣理解?你覺得就算阿 2 強冇落去搞過個泵,或者準備要搞個泵都好,你覺得「我自己都要出張關閉通知 3 書」? 4 鍾傑文先生:係。 5 李澍桓大律師:因為你係負責維修嘅嗰個註冊消防裝置承辦商,係咪? 6 鍾傑文先生:入嘅時候就唔係維修,入嘅時候,其實佢叫我哋去睇,就係其實一種檢查嚟㗎 7 嘞,咁就係檢查囉。咁檢查到佢喉管有問題,然後我哋風險評估覺得有機會會閂 8 咗,所以我哋入SDN,嗄,唔係... 9 李澍桓大律師:係,但係你入嘅時候,因為正如你所講,唔係你去閂㗎嘛? 10 鍾傑文先生:係,但係我哋唔係閂個上水系統啫,個消防泵系統我哋覺得有機會會被關閉。 11 李澍桓大律師:但係--我知,事實上似乎係關閉咗,正如你所講,唔係就成座大廈浸晒喇? 12 繼續出水。 13 鍾傑文先生:兩樣嘢嚟嘅,上水還上水。 14 李澍桓大律師:上水其中一條喉穿咗吖嘛。 15 鍾傑文先生:係。 16 李澍桓大律師:喺嗰度有水漏出嚟吖嘛? 17 鍾傑文先生:係。 18 李澍桓大律師:...(聽不清) 19 鍾傑文先生:但係如果淨係純粹上水系統嘅話,水缸滿水嘅情況係唔需要掛牌嘅。 20 李澍桓大律師:唔係,我淨係針對個消防上水泵啫。 21 鍾傑文先生:係。 22 李澍桓大律師:如果正常嘅情況,就係閂咗個泵,等佢唔好繼續扯水上去,上面可能閂埋個 23 水掣,個天面水缸照道理就應該要等佢唔好出水落嚟,係咪應該要咁樣? 24 鍾傑文先:嗰度冇得閂嘅,你閂咗個上水泵就冇掣閂㗎嘞嗰度,嗄。 25 李澍桓大律師:上面水缸有個--即係譬如好似...(聽不清)換嗰啲閘掣,佢都可以閂㗎 26 嘛? 27 鍾傑文先生:上水就冇嘅。 28 李澍桓大律師:嗄,上水就冇㗎嘛,所以淨係閂個泵㗎咋嘛? 29 鍾傑文先生:係,冇錯。 30 李澍桓大律師:可唔可以確認4 月又好,5 月又好,我哋希望純粹搞清楚,你哋宏泰消防嘅 31 人,你本人又好,阿強又好,黃生又好,從來都冇去掂過個泵㗎嘛? 32 鍾傑文先生:可以。 33 李澍桓大律師:確認吖嘛? 34 鍾傑文先生:確認。 35 李澍桓大律師:做完之後,亦都冇去開番個泵,去睇下個水缸有冇水㗎嘛? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第九天

50 本謄本由Epiq 編製 鍾傑文先生:有睇到個水缸有冇水,睇相啫。 1 李澍桓大律師:即係淨係睇相? 2 鍾傑文先生:係,睇到佢滿水。 3 李澍桓大律師:就冇話上過去上面? 4 鍾傑文先生:冇睇到嘅。 5 李澍桓大律師:咁阿強有冇上過去? 6 鍾傑文先生:冇。 7 李澍桓大律師:咁嗰啲相係邊個畀你? 8 鍾傑文先生:鄭小姐畀我。 9 李澍桓大律師:係囉。 10 鍾傑文先生:我有問到佢。 11 李澍桓大律師:即係所以亦都林大律師講話咩嘢有冇相嘅時候,做完嗰啲相,其實你哋自己 12 冇影到㗎嘛? 13 鍾傑文先生:完工換喉嗰啲相有嘅。 14 李澍桓大律師:嗄,即係但係個水缸你都講冇㗎嘛? 15 鍾傑文先生:係,我哋冇睇到。 16 李澍桓大律師:但係總之無論如何點都好,我哋而家見到嘅呢張文件就係由宏泰消防嘅身分 17 去通知消防處,5 月27 號、28 號可能有需要關閉超過二十四小時,係咪? 18 鍾傑文先生:5 月27 號係完工。 19 李澍桓大律師:嗄。 20 鍾傑文先生:係4 月3 號開始掛,係。 21 李澍桓大律師:係,係,開始掛吖嘛? 22 鍾傑文先生:係。 23 李澍桓大律師:所以就係... 24 鍾傑文先生:4 月3 號檢查。 25 李澍桓大律師:...正如我剛才所講,呢個係用宏泰消防嘅身分去入㗎嘛? 26 鍾傑文先生:係,係。 27 李澍桓大律師:而客觀事實就係宏泰消防從來冇去掂過個泵? 28 鍾傑文先生:係,係。 29 李澍桓大律師:冇跟進問題。 30 陸啟康法官:好,唔該晒鍾生,你作供完畢,唔該你。 31 鍾傑文先生:好,好,唔該。 32

33 12 時30 分宏泰消防工程有限公司董事及工程師證人鍾傑文先生作供完畢 34 12 時31 分中華發展工程有限公司董事證人梁秉基先生開始作供 35

36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第九天

51 本謄本由Epiq 編製 陸啟康法官:係,杜大律師。 1 杜淦堃資深大律師:主席,下一位證人係中華發展嘅梁秉基先生。 2 梁先生,你好,你前面應該有一份簡單嘅聲明,麻煩你企起身讀一讀出嚟。 3 梁秉基先生:本人梁秉基聲明,本人所作的證供,盡本人所知、所悉及所屬,均屬真實。 4 杜淦堃資深大律師:多謝你,請坐,你想唔想放低個袋?你唔使一直孭住個袋。 5 梁秉基先生:唔好意思。 6 杜淦堃資深大律師:多謝你嚟協助我哋,我都想快啲完成你嘅證供,所以麻煩你聽清楚我個 7 問題,回答有關嘅問題。 8 梁秉基先生:好,唔該。 9 杜淦堃資深大律師:我一定畀足夠嘅時間你去解釋你嘅立場,好唔好? 10 梁秉基先生:好,唔該。 11 杜淦堃資深大律師:首先你做咗兩份證人陳述書畀委員會嘅,一份係剛剛上個禮拜先提交 12 嘅,我相信你都可以確認嗰兩份陳述書裏面嘅內容係準確,係咪? 13 梁秉基先生:係。 14 杜淦堃資深大律師:喺你第二份陳述書,係WS7/1876 頁裏面嘅第5 段,你係提到一啲你 15 之前嘅經驗,我哋見到你喺1998 年到2014 年,其實係做咗幾間唔同嘅公司係任 16 職工程師嘅,呢三間公司係咪都係持牌嘅消防設備承辦商嚟? 17 梁秉基先生:係,係。 18 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋見到其中一間,譬如B 咁,(English Spoken)佢而家都仲係 19 持牌嘅,你知呀呵? 20 梁秉基先生:係。 21 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋知道你喺2014 年9 月就加入咗中國發展,直至到而家你係公司嘅 22 董事,係咪? 23 梁秉基先生:係。 24 杜淦堃資深大律師:你亦都係股東,你有30%嘅股權? 25 梁秉基先生:係。 26 杜淦堃資深大律師:你做咗幾多年董事?中華發展。 27 梁秉基先生:2014 到而家。 28 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,即係你加入嘅時候已經做董事㗎嘞,係。咁我相信你都好清楚,如 29 果要做消防裝置嘅承辦商,其實唔係個個都做到,要有一啲專業嘅資格嘅,你明 30 白,係咪? 31 梁秉基先生:明白。 32 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想你幫一幫我哋,如果我哋去睇一睇B2 文件夾/145 頁,我哋見到呢 33 度顯示嘅係消防裝置承辦商嘅規例,我相信你都了解相關嘅規例,係咪? 34 梁秉基先生:了解。 35 杜淦堃資深大律師:有幾項我想你幫一幫我嘅,如果我哋睇一睇第二項,我哋見到首先就有 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第九天

52 本謄本由Epiq 編製 一個申請人嘅定義,呢個就係申請有關資格嘅申請人? 1 梁秉基先生:係。 2 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋睇下146 頁裏面,第3 條裏面就講咗一啲點樣先可以做一個申請人 3 嘅資格。裏面就提到喺第4 條,149 頁,第4 條就講咗有唔同嘅牌照,咁裏面亦都 4 提到譬如第(2)段,第(2)小段如果申請註冊列入第一級嘅人士就需要提供一啲嘅 5 證供,證據裏面我哋見到譬如(a)項,申請人或者申請人董事、僱員或者合夥人, 6 其中最少一個要有電機工程學位同埋符合英國工程學委員會就英國電機工程師學會 7 嘅一啲會員資格,係唔係咁? 8 梁秉基先生:係。 9 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋亦都見到(b)亦都講出有其他要求或者資格,令到你可以成為相關 10 承辦商嘅,呢啲你都理解嘅,係咪? 11 梁秉基先生:理解嘅。 12 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢個係第1 級,第(3)小段裏面講如果做第2 級嘅人士就就亦都要提出 13 另外一啲資格嘅,其實係一啲關於水喉匠嘅資格,係咪? 14 梁秉基先生:係。 15 杜淦堃資深大律師:你哋公司係有第1 級同第2 級嘅牌照,係咪? 16 梁秉基先生:係。 17 杜淦堃資深大律師:係咪你加入之後先申請定係你入之前申請咗嘅? 18 梁秉基先生:我加入先申請。 19 杜淦堃資深大律師:你加入先申請嘅? 20 你梁秉基先生:係。 21 杜淦堃資深大律師:而要符合呢啲資格,係唔係因為你加入咗所以符合到? 22 梁秉基先生:唔係,本身董事有呢個資格。 23 杜淦堃資深大律師:本身其他董事有呢個資格嘅? 24 梁秉基先生:係。 25 杜淦堃資深大律師:你都有嘅,係咪? 26 梁秉基先生:我冇學位嗰啲。 27 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係呢度係唔需要學位,我想問一問你有冇其他資格,你本人係符合到 28 嘅? 29 梁秉基先生:我唔係呢啲資格。 30 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白。即係所以你澄清你嘅口供,你了解相關嘅要求,因為係你加入咗 31 之後先作出有關申請,係咪? 32 梁秉基先生:係。 33 杜淦堃資深大律師:而我哋如果睇番呢個規例,其實相關嘅法例除咗列明要申請作為一個承 34 辦商嘅要求之外,亦都講咗譬如第6A 我哋去睇,第(2)小段,我哋亦都睇到符合 35 相關資格嗰位人士,如果佢履行唔到有關嘅職務,法例上高都要有要求,係唔係 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第九天

53 本謄本由Epiq 編製 咁?你明白有關嘅規例,係咪? 1 梁秉基先生:明白。 2 杜淦堃資深大律師:如果籠統咁講,就係有資格嗰個人其實如果喺相關時候,佢唔喺香港, 3 佢病咗,佢唔做嘢,你哋係有啲工程係唔可以完工,要等佢返嚟做埋佢,係唔係 4 咁? 5 梁秉基先生:係。 6 杜淦堃資深大律師:而第7 條我哋見到如果相關嘅人士係已經唔喺公司,你哋呢個都要通知 7 番消防處,係咪? 8 梁秉基先生:係。 9 杜淦堃資深大律師:再睇一睇另外一項,想你幫幫我哋睇第9 項,我哋睇9 項亦都睇到相關 10 嘅法例亦都有一個紀律委員會機制嘅,呢個你哋都了解,係咪? 11 梁秉基先生:明白。 12 杜淦堃資深大律師:所以合資格嘅人士、合資格嘅公司,其實如果佢哋違反咗相關嘅要求, 13 紀律委員會係可以對佢哋進行採取一啲嘅行動嘅,有啲嘅聆訊,係咪咁? 14 梁秉基先生:係。 15 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢啲其實你入咗嚟中華過去嘅十多年,你都理解相關嘅規定同要求,係 16 咪? 17 梁秉基先生:係。 18 杜淦堃資深大律師:而可唔可以咁講,其實中華發展都試過被消防處用有關嘅紀律委員會嘅 19 程序去處分嘅之前,你有冇印象有呢件事? 20 梁秉基先生:有印象。 21 杜淦堃資深大律師:而當嗰件事其實就係喺2021 年嘅12 月,當時係被消防處處分嘅。我 22 畀你睇一睇番A3 文件夾216 頁,我哋搵到一個政府嘅公告,就係呢個就係我哋見 23 到相關呢個公告講咗,紀律委員會喺2021 年12 月15 號就按我哋頭先睇過嘅規 24 定嘅第10 條進行呢個研訊之後信納你哋第1 級同第2 級註冊消防裝置承辦商中華 25 發展有限公司違反咗有關裝置保養維修同埋檢查消防裝置或設備不當行為或疏忽, 26 咁裏面個內容講到其實之前嗰一年嘅11 月,你哋冇通知消防處有關某一棟樓宇其 27 實係關閉消防系統多過24 小時嘅,呢件事你有冇份參與? 28 梁秉基先生:我冇份參與。 29 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係作為公司嘅董事,你係知道,係咪? 30 梁秉基先生:知道。 31 杜淦堃資深大律師:嗰一次都係關於我哋喺呢個聆訊所講有關一啲 SDN (English 32 Spoken)嘅規定違反咗,係咪? 33 梁秉基先生:係,應該係。 34 杜淦堃資深大律師:而嗰一次裏面你就被--公司被勒令就係停咗註冊三個星期,係咪? 35 梁秉基先生:係。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第九天

54 本謄本由Epiq 編製 杜淦堃資深大律師:你可唔可以講到畀我哋聽呢一次違反呢個規定之後,你哋有冇檢討過你 1 哋嘅制度或者你哋採取過啲咩嘢措施? 2 梁秉基先生:呢一次主要就係另一位董事去跟進嘅。 3 杜淦堃資深大律師:邊位? 4 梁秉基先生:嚴生。 5 杜淦堃資深大律師:嚴生都係有喺我哋呢次聆訊入咗口供,但係佢就唔諗住出嚟啯證供嗰 6 位,係咪? 7 梁秉基先生:呢個要佢去決定。 8 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想問一問你嘅理解,你公司得你一個出嚟,係咪? 9 梁秉基先生:係。 10 杜淦堃資深大律師:而呢件事你話係嚴生處理嘅,係咪? 11 梁秉基先生:呢單工程係佢接、佢做、佢跟嘅,係。 12 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想問下你,嗰一次違反咗之後,你哋有冇做啲咩嘢措施確保唔再違 13 反? 14 梁秉基先生:即係以我理解呢個,佢其實係講話做一座--即係一層裝修嘅,當其時就係應該 15 2020 年,未有最新嗰個21 年新嗰個SDN 個要求,以前就話一層都需要入SDN, 16 所以就違反咗,跟住21 年好似唔知1 月之後,如果入一層就唔使嘅。 17 杜淦堃資深大律師:你嘅意思係唔係因為個要求變咗,所以你哋覺得都唔會再違反? 18 梁秉基先生:變咗,唔係,即係個意思係嚴生講番畀我聽,因為係佢上過嗰個委員會,同佢 19 講過呢樣嘢。 20 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白,都因為主要係嚴生負責,唔想再為難你。 21 梁秉基先生:係。 22 杜淦堃資深大律師:我可以問你另外一方面嘅問題。 23 梁秉基先生:係。 24 杜淦堃資深大律師:首先我想問一問你,你第二份嘅證人供詞1877 頁,bundle... 25 梁秉基先生:係。 26 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想大家明白你嘅內容,因為唔係在場每一位都睇過你嘅證人供詞。 27 梁秉基先生:明。 28 杜淦堃資深大律師:我見到第12 段嗰度,1877 頁,你講咗你喺中華發展嘅一啲工作,我相 29 信呢份證人供詞裏面嘅英文你睇得明吖嘛? 30 梁秉基先生:睇到。 31 杜淦堃資深大律師:睇得明,好,我哋可以用番。睇第12(d),你講到你係會(English 32 Spoken),即係你會安排年檢,係咪? 33 梁秉基先生:係。 34 杜淦堃資深大律師:年檢嘅時候,需需要喺現場檢查?我想問你。 35 梁秉基先生:工人檢查? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第九天

55 本謄本由Epiq 編製 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,即係你公司要派人去現場檢查,係咪? 1 梁秉基先生:係,係。 2 杜淦堃資深大律師:工人落去,你哋幾位董事或者有專業資格嘅人士會唔會落去? 3 梁秉基先生:呢度冇,即係如果--我係安排啲人落去做嘢,係,我冇... 4 杜淦堃資深大律師:你聽清楚我個問題,你哋董事或者符合資格嘅人士使唔使自己落去? 5 梁秉基先生:有,嚴生如果佢做年檢,佢會落去嘅,因為佢係董事,即係有即係資格。 6 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係佢係有符合專業資格嗰位人士? 7 梁秉基先生:你講1、2 級嗰個? 8 杜淦堃資深大律師:我問多你一次或者,如果年檢要安排現場嘅調查係邊個去,喺你哋公 9 司? 10 梁秉基先生:做維修--即係做年檢嗰個? 11 杜淦堃資深大律師:係。 12 梁秉基先生:嚴生會落去。 13 杜淦堃資深大律師:係唔係每一次嚴生都去? 14 梁秉基先生:都唔一定。 15 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔一定,咁係邊個去?可唔可以解一解畀大家聽? 16 梁秉基先生:嚴生啲師傅。 17 杜淦堃資深大律師:一係就公司嘅員工去,一係就嚴生自己去。 18 梁秉基先生:係,係。 19 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想問一問你哋公司點樣去監督員工去做呢啲現場嘅檢查(English 20 Spoken)? 21 梁秉基先生:佢哋會即係跟番--即係做啲(English Spoken),即係佢哋會check,即 22 係譬如可能試鐘,佢會跟番就拍片、影相,咁即係有時... 23 杜淦堃資深大律師:會有紀錄睇番個消防系統運作send 番畀公司,係咪咁? 24 梁秉基先生:係,係。 25 杜淦堃資深大律師:好,我想問你,你見到呢度12(e),呢度提到我哋喺呢個聆訊講咗好多 26 次嘅(English Spoken),要做一個(English Spoken)喺程序上高相信 27 你哋都會去睇下,去現場睇一睇,係咪? 28 梁秉基先生:係。 29 杜淦堃資深大律師:我睇番你20 段嘅解釋,你話SDN(English Spoken),即係講 30 完、睇完之後,你呢度講咗(English Spoken),即係你哋一般嘅指定程序。 31 梁秉基先生:唔。 32 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢度話你或者你嘅同事就會去到嗰個現場,去睇一睇當時嘅情況,係 33 咪? 34 梁秉基先生:係。 35 杜淦堃資深大律師:你話“(English Spoken)",就令到你可以去做有關嘅計畫,係 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第九天

56 本謄本由Epiq 編製 咪? 1 梁秉基先生:唔。 2 杜淦堃資深大律師:跟住你哋先會做一個報價? 3 梁秉基先生:係。 4 杜淦堃資深大律師:你呢度話“(English Spoken)",係咪? 5 梁秉基先生:係。 6 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢度你亦都講得好清楚嘅,喺呢份文件裏面,就係話到最屘嗰項,你話 7 如果有關閉需要嘅話,你哋就會申請,係咪? 8 梁秉基先生:係。 9 杜淦堃資深大律師:所以你哋亦都要衡量過有冇需要關閉而作出有關嘅申請,係咪? 10 梁秉基先生:係。 11 杜淦堃資深大律師:而我相信你亦都會同意其實呢啲消防裝置其實當然唔可以立亂關閉,只 12 係真係有需要嘅時候先至關閉,係咪咁呀? 13 梁秉基先生:係。 14 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想問係你,或者受你哋監督嘅員工去落場去做呢啲嘅現場嘅檢查,去 15 睇下需唔需要入一個SDN,呢個應該係經常發生嘅事,係咪?以你哋嘅工作模式。 16 梁秉基先生:我哋其實最主要公司係做一啲叫做消防命令嗰啲,572 嗰啲,咁嗰啲就有入 17 SDN,因為要更換啲譬如一個警鐘扲手,所以需要入呢個。 18 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係你嘅意思,係你哋大部分嘅工程都會涉及有SDN 嘅,所以你哋做呢 19 啲工程當然亦都要去睇一睇有冇入SDN 嘅需要,因為我哋知道譬如如果關閉時間短 20 就唔使入,係咪? 21 梁秉基先生:唔超過廿四小時。 22 杜淦堃資深大律師:廿四小時,係嘞。所以你要一個評估,就係睇下會唔會做多過廿四小 23 時,要唔要入一份SDN,如果廿四小時內做好就唔使入,就最簡單,係咪? 24 梁秉基先生:係。 25 杜淦堃資深大律師:所以評估嗰個時間都係相當重要嘅,咁講啱唔啱? 26 梁秉基先生:係。 27 杜淦堃資深大律師:我都想睇番你第一份證人陳述書,因為可能唔係在場嘅人士每一位都睇 28 過。麻煩你去到第27 段,呢度列出咗有關一啲相關嘅法例規定同埋一啲嘅守則 29 嘅,而你裏面提到,根據你嘅理解有關消防栓同埋喉轆系統,而同SDN 有關嘅守 30 則,我哋見到首先你講咗個“ (English Spoken )",呢度就係你提到一個 31 2022 嘅版本,第2 段嗰度,你見唔見到? 32 梁秉基先生:係。 33 杜淦堃資深大律師:跟住亦都另外一份緊要嘅文件,就係有個(English Spoken ) 34 1/2021,呢個係一個相當重要嘅文件,同意嘛? 35 梁秉基先生:唔,係。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第九天

57 本謄本由Epiq 編製 杜淦堃資深大律師:而呢個通函喺2021 年嘅1 月開始生效,相信你呢幾年都相當熟悉呢一 1 個通函,係咪? 2 梁秉基先生:係。 3 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想你幫一幫我睇一睇個通函內容,喺B2/1303,如果我哋揭番去之前 4 嗰一頁,我哋就見到呢份係咩嘢文件,見到日期,亦都見到消防處應該係畀晒所有 5 你哋呢啲註冊嘅承辦商嘅,係咪? 6 梁秉基先生:係。 7 杜淦堃資深大律師:而你哋每一位註冊承辦商當然都有熟讀呢個通函,係咪? 8 梁秉基先生:係。 9 杜淦堃資深大律師:應該理論上高,你哋公司有,係咪? 10 梁秉基先生:有睇。 11 杜淦堃資深大律師:想你幫一幫我手嘅,就係我哋去1303 睇一睇(A)段,我哋有中文版 12 嘅,喺紀錄嚟講。我哋去睇個英文版先,因為有啲嘢呢度寫得可能會比較容易啲, 13 你睇得明嘅相信,係咪? 14 梁秉基先生:可以。 15 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,我陣時畀番個中文版你睇,如果有需要。 16 梁秉基先生:係。 17 杜淦堃資深大律師:主席,中文版喺A3/20 頁。我哋睇呢個英文版,我哋見到--我想你留 18 意嘅就係第(A)段嗰度先,呢度就係咁講嘅“(English Spoken)",呢度咁 19 講“(English Spoken)."你明白呢一句嘅內容,係咪? 20 梁秉基先生:大約係超過廿四小時嘅。 21 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,同埋你見到呢度喺個逗號之後,佢講到話“ (English 22 Spoken)",所以你明白去通知消防處呢個責任似乎就喺嗰個註冊承辦商嗰度, 23 明唔明白? 24 梁秉基先生:唔。 25 杜淦堃資深大律師:你都見到呢一度,第1 睇到有講嗰個消防栓同個喉轆系統,第3 就有關 26 於火警警報系統,我哋比較關注呢兩點嘅,你明白,係咪? 27 梁秉基先生:明。 28 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋如果再--你幫一幫我哋去睇(F)到(I),我哋睇一睇有關個規定 29 先。我哋見到(F)嗰度就咁講嘅,“(English Spoken)"即係如果有個延期 30 嘅話,關閉時間延長,你哋要喺有關嗰個限期到之前再向消防處提供有關嘅通知書 31 嘅,你明白,係咪? 32 梁秉基先生:唔。 33 杜淦堃資深大律師:好,跟住我想你睇一睇(G),呢度咁講,“(English Spoken)" 34 (G),中間。 35 梁秉基先生:係。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第九天

58 本謄本由Epiq 編製 杜淦堃資深大律師:換句話講,即係如果承辦商唔再獲委聘進行有關嘅工程,咁就要喺竣工 1 之前向消防處提交通知書,你明白相關嘅規定,係咪? 2 梁秉基先生:明白。 3 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白。係嘞,即係如果譬如你哋做做下畀人換咗,完工之前你哋應該話 4 畀消防處聽,你明白? 5 梁秉基先生:明。 6 杜淦堃資深大律師:而我哋睇下(H),(H)咁講「通知書在本情況下只可以由承辦商人士或 7 授權簽署」,就有講有關嘅合資格人士(English Spoken)或者獲授權簽署證 8 書嘅人士,我想問一問你公司嗰個叫做(English Spoken)係邊位? 9 梁秉基先生:應該嗰個係屬於叫做--申請人嗰個就係應該係嚴生嚟嘅。 10 杜淦堃資深大律師:QP 係嚴彩華(譯音)先生。 11 梁秉基先生:係,(English Spoken)。 12 杜淦堃資深大律師:(English Spoken)係咪? 13 梁秉基先生:係。 14 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁你公司個(English Spoken)呢?(English Spoken)你公 15 司係邊個? 16 梁秉基先生:即係之後講話簽名,可以獲授權簽署就係我同另外一位梁生。 17 杜淦堃資深大律師:梁生嘅全名? 18 梁秉基先生:梁志偉(譯音)先生,兩個嘅。 19 杜淦堃資深大律師:我再麻煩你睇(I)段。 20 梁秉基先生:係。 21 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢度咁講,就講番之前(F)嗰度個規定,「承辦商的合資格人士或授權 22 簽證人士--如有此需要,要親自簽署通知書確認。」你明白呢個規定,係咪?因為 23 個合資格人士或者獲授權簽署個證書嗰個人,其實係應該嚴謹地去檢討係唔係應該 24 需要延長有關消防裝備關閉嘅時間,同埋佢哋親自簽署個確認書嘅,你明白呢個規 25 定吖嘛? 26 梁秉基先生:明白。 27 杜淦堃資深大律師:你哋不嬲都了解呢個規定,唔係今日先了解,係咪? 28 梁秉基先生:唔,唔,明,係。 29 杜淦堃資深大律師:根據你嘅認知,對於消防裝置停用,要你哋親自或者嚴謹地去檢討係唔 30 係需要延長或者關閉嗰個有關嘅時間,呢個要求係相當之嚴謹嘅,所以要個QP 或 31 者AP 親自去負責,係咪呀? 32 梁秉基先生:係。 33 杜淦堃資深大律師:Sorry,QP 或者AS。所以你會唔會同意呢個講法?如果要申請延長、 34 關閉消防系統,其實你哋作為承辦商唔可以單憑業主或者其他人同你哋講需要延 35 期,跟住就求求其其咁同消防處去申請延期,呢個你同唔同意? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第九天

59 本謄本由Epiq 編製 梁秉基先生:同意,但係水缸我哋... 1 杜淦堃資深大律師:我一陣會同你慢慢探討個水缸嘅問題。 2 梁秉基先生:好。 3 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係我想同你確認嘅,就係你哋自己有責任去研究下要關閉幾耐,應唔 4 應該延長,唔可以人哋叫你做乜就做乜,呢個你同意,係咪? 5 梁秉基先生:(點頭)唔。 6 杜淦堃資深大律師:你要答出聲,唔可以淨係岋頭。 7 梁秉基先生:係。 8 杜淦堃資深大律師:而你明白通函裏面,我哋頭先啱啱睇過,亦都明確咁樣規定提交延期申 9 請嘅承辦商其實要通過你哋合資格人士親自確認,即係唔可以求其一個伙記去確認 10 嘅,係要個QP 或者AS 負責,同意吖嘛? 11 梁秉基先生:係。 12 杜淦堃資深大律師:最後我想你幫我睇一睇同一個文件(E),呢個咁講「係好合理嘅要求, 13 我相信你會同意,關閉消防裝置對其正常操作影響應減至最低,並且儘快恢復正常 14 運作。如系統受影響部分係工程尾聲未能正常操作,將把該部分孤立,讓系統其餘 15 部分先恢復正常操作。」呢啲規定你明白? 16 梁秉基先生:唔,係。 17 杜淦堃資深大律師:換句話講,關閉消防系統嗰個正常運作應該係將佢嘅影響減到最低? 18 梁秉基先生:係。 19 杜淦堃資深大律師:亦都要考慮可能係分段關閉,唔係關閉晒成個系統,係咪咁呀? 20 梁秉基先生:係。 21 杜淦堃資深大律師:而你哋亦都有責任去確保個系統儘快恢復正常運作,同意嘛? 22 梁秉基先生:係。 23 杜淦堃資深大律師:而相信你亦都同意分段關閉呢個做法其實都係去確保如果有部分嘅系統 24 我唔需要閂嘅,我哋一定要保持佢正常運作,係咪咁呀? 25 梁秉基先生:係。 26 杜淦堃資深大律師:正如好似宏福苑為例,其實你冇理由關閉晒八座消防系統,如果有需要 27 關閉一座,咪就關閉一座,可唔可以咁講? 28 梁秉基先生:可以咁講。 29 杜淦堃資深大律師:就通函,我亦都想你睇一睇1306--嗰度1305 嗰度我哋見到最尾標題 30 有個(English Spoken )(特別注意事項)。下面嗰段就講咗“ (English 31 Spoken)",可以申請嘅,如果關閉系統,係咪咁? 32 梁秉基先生:係。 33 杜淦堃資深大律師:而1308 我哋見到有關嘅附件1,呢個我哋喺我哋喺今次聽證會裏面都 34 展示過呢啲文件。 35 梁秉基先生:唔,唔。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第九天

60 本謄本由Epiq 編製 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想你幫一幫我哋嘅,就係你睇一睇,如果我哋縮細啲份文件,你睇到 1 份文件嘅下半部最底嗰度,我哋放大番註釋,裏面都講咗一啲你已經知道嘅嘢, 2 「註2,一般而言,除了因法例要求進行消防安全改善工程外,每次延長關閉消防 3 設施嘅時間唔應該超過十四天」,呢個全行都知,係咪? 4 梁秉基先生:係。 5 杜淦堃資深大律師:如果我哋睇註3,註3 邊度嚟呢?你見到註3 嘅第三部分,第三部分我 6 哋見到高嗰個部分寫住「恢復消防裝置」,呢一欄裏面關閉完嘅消防系統需要註冊 7 承辦商檢查咗之後,喺十四日內發一份證明書嘅。如果我哋睇番註3 嘅話,其實有 8 要求嘅,十四日內要發一份註冊聲明書,嗰份就係我哋喺呢個聆訊提到嗰份 9 FS251,係咪? 10 梁秉基先生:係。 11 杜淦堃資深大律師:或者你哋有時叫做(English Spoken),係咪? 12 梁秉基先生:可以咁講。 13 杜淦堃資深大律師:所以其實註冊消防裝置承辦商,你哋要親自檢查相關消防系統,確保裝 14 置恢復,發出證明書同埋填番呢一個第三部分交番畀消防處嘅,係咪? 15 梁秉基先生:係。 16 杜淦堃資深大律師:如果我哋睇番前面1306 頁,我想你幫一幫我哋睇一睇,縮番細少少, 17 嗰一段我哋見到「除咗喺先前所講嘅幾段之外,其實以下嘅指引亦都係需要遵守 18 嘅,如果嗰個裝置係要關閉過夜或者超過廿四小時。」你要留意以下嘅事項,而我 19 哋見到(c)嗰度,佢咁講「過長嘅時間應該要避免,而受影響嘅裝置應該有可能之 20 下儘早恢復。」你見到?你都明白其實有責任要避免長時間關閉系統同儘早恢復運 21 作嘅。 22 梁秉基先生:係。 23 杜淦堃資深大律師:或者睇埋以下嘅一兩段我哋先休息,主席,如果可以嘅話。你去 24 1307,喺特別事項最屘有咁講嘅,你見到開頭嗰段嘅中間有啲字係深色咗嘅,佢咁 25 講「處長認為如果冇遵照本通函規定嘅程序通知消防處處長,或者係出現任何不當 26 任何蓄意嘅延誤可構成不當行為或疏忽,有關承辦商因此不宜再名列於註冊紀錄之 27 上。」跟住最屘佢就講咗會轉交最屘嗰行「有關嘅裝置承辦商個案可以轉交紀律委 28 員會處理」,係咪? 29 梁秉基先生:我睇得唔係好--有啲字唔識。 30 杜淦堃資深大律師:有啲字唔識,你想唔想睇中文? 31 梁秉基先生:唔緊要,即係--係喇。 32 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係我可以同你講,考慮到呢啲以上種種嘅原因,如果消防處處長認為 33 你哋冇遵照呢個章程呢個規章裏面嘅規定,或者消防裝備工程出現任何不當、任意 34 或者蓄意嘅延誤,呢啲可能會被視為不當行為或者疏忽,可以除名嘅,喺個牌度, 35 喺個名冊嗰度,你知道呢樣嘢,係咪? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第九天

61 本謄本由Epiq 編製 梁秉基先生:明白。 1 杜淦堃資深大律師:而你哋公司有經驗畀人進行紀律聆訊,就係幾年前,係咪? 2 梁秉基先生:唔。 3 杜淦堃資深大律師:當時亦都停咗三個禮拜,係咪? 4 梁秉基先生:係。 5 杜淦堃資深大律師:成三個禮拜,其中嘅可行性,畀人永遠除名都可以嘅,係咪? 6 梁秉基先生:理論就係。 7 杜淦堃資深大律師:你知道,係咪? 8 梁秉基先生:知道。 9 杜淦堃資深大律師:好,我同你睇過相關規定,我諗食晏之後,我再麻煩你幫一幫我哋睇番 10 本案嗰個做法。主席,呢個係一個適當嘅時候。 11 陸啟康法官:我哋押後到下晝2 點15 分。 12

13 13 時06 分聆訊押後 14 14 時15 分聆訊恢復 15

16 陸啟康法官:係,請繼續,杜大律師。 17 杜淦堃資深大律師:主席,梁先生,午安,多謝你番嚟繼續協助我哋。其實我想第一件事同 18 你講嘅就係,其實喺你第一份證人陳述書裏面,其實你好坦白咁樣樣解釋咗你哋做 19 過啲乜嘢嘅?我想確認我呢個理解係正確嘅啫。第一,就係喺宏福苑呢份工作,即 20 你哋叫呢個job,除咗你哋負責提供咗啲額外嘅滅火筒,中華發展亦都遞交咗一啲 21 表格畀消防處,我哋今朝都提過嘅嗰啲SDN、有啲FS251 喇,除此之外,其實你 22 哋冇做過其他嘢嘅? 23 梁秉基先生:係。 24 杜淦堃資深大律師:你哋冇親自去過宏福苑檢查任何嘅消防裝置,亦都其實冇獨立咁去判斷 25 過係咪需要關閉有關嘅消防裝置,呢點你係同意嘅,係咪? 26 梁秉基先生:(點頭) 27 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想睇一睇你第一份證人陳述書,麻煩你揭去或者螢光幕顯示第14 28 段,喺1511 頁。再落,係嘞,第14 同15 段,我畀啲時間你睇一睇先,你睇完 29 話我知。 30 梁秉基先生:係。 31 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁講啱唔啱?你嘅講法就係當宏業通知你某一棟大廈要入消防裝置關閉 32 通知書嘅時候,你會準備兩份文件,你第15 段講,第一,就係你自己簽署有關嗰 33 份SDN ,第二,就係你要搵另外一個人簽㗎嘞,就係Alex Yim ,佢簽嗰份 34 FS251,跟住就係fax 呢兩份文件畀消防處,啱唔啱? 35 梁秉基先生:係。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第九天

62 本謄本由Epiq 編製 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想搞清楚你第15 段呢度提到要簽個FS251,呢個根據你嘅認知,呢 1 個係消防裝置完成個維修之後嘅證明書,定係完成之前都要入㗎? 2 梁秉基先生:Check 或者檢查都要入,或者年檢都要入。 3 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係做完嗰陣先入㗎嘛,係咪? 4 梁秉基先生:係,做完,做完。 5 杜淦堃資深大律師:年檢嗰陣就做晒冇問題我就入喇? 6 梁秉基先生:係,係。 7 杜淦堃資深大律師:如果要做維修嘅時候,係應該做完個維修前入吖,定係做緊嘅途中入? 8 梁秉基先生:完成,完成。 9 杜淦堃資深大律師:完成先入嘅? 10 梁秉基先生:係,完成先入。 11 杜淦堃資深大律師:所以我見到你哋個寫法都係咁嘅?想睇番你Bundle R 第1 頁嗰張報 12 價單,我哋見到第三項「維修消防水缸完成消防證明書」。 13 梁秉基先生:係。 14 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係完晒先入呢份嘢應該,係咪? 15 梁秉基先生:係。 16 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔。我想你幫一幫我,就係似乎中華發展喺維修呢個防水缸工程完工之 17 前係遞交咗啲FS251,你知唔知道有啲咁嘅事呀? 18 梁秉基先生:知道。 19 杜淦堃資深大律師:你可唔可以講一講畀我哋聽,你頭先又話完工至入,點解喺呢度未完 20 工,又會無端端入咗啲FS251,你記唔記得? 21 梁秉基先生:因為嗰陣時消防處要求我哋嗰陣時畀,咁嗰陣時我哋check,即係叫做第一次 22 出SDN 嗰時已經有呢份,但係嗰陣時就冇畀過佢咁囉,所以就畀番--之後fax 番 23 過去畀番消防處。 24 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係換句話講係消防處催,所以你哋入咗,係咪咁? 25 梁秉基先生:係呀。 26 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,我哋陣間慢慢帶你睇啲文件,想你幫一幫我就係我哋都見到喺呢一 27 度,如果睇你第二份證人供詞Bundle 7/1885 頁,第58 段,呢度講咗嘞,你第 28 57 段你就講“(English Spoken)”,你就話「整體嚟講,喺宏福苑嘅工程裏 29 面,SDN 嗰個做法就係你簽嘅SDN,跟住你畀嚴生,佢就會簽嗰個FS251」。 30 梁秉基先生:唔。 31 杜淦堃資深大律師:跟住你提到有位--你話“(English Spoken )”,我想問下你就 32 係,佢send 畀消防處之外,你個員工鍾小姐會唔會send 畀其他人,宏業、管理 33 處會唔會畀copy㗎? 34 梁秉基先生:佢如果收到消防處回覆嗰張,𢲩咗蓋嗰張就會畀我,跟住或者佢擺咗上去嗰個 35 WhatsApp 個群組就畀咗宏業嗰邊,即係個群組淨係得三個人嘅啫。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第九天

63 本謄本由Epiq 編製 杜淦堃資深大律師:消防處回覆之後嘅事呢個你講緊嘅? 1 梁秉基先生:係呀,係呀。 2 杜淦堃資深大律師:佢send 出去嗰陣呢? 3 梁秉基先生:Send 出去嗰個佢應該即日會回覆嘅,通常就係。 4 杜淦堃資深大律師:應該會即日回覆? 5 梁秉基先生:係呀。 6 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係有可能唔會喇? 7 梁秉基先生:應該每一次都係即日嘅。 8 杜淦堃資深大律師:我問你個問題係佢sent 出去嗰陣? 9 梁秉基先生:冇。 10 杜淦堃資深大律師:冇嘅,唔會嘅? 11 梁秉基先生:冇嘅,冇。 12 杜淦堃資深大律師:收到番嚟就會... 13 梁秉基先生:係。 14 杜淦堃資深大律師:消防處回覆就會... 15 梁秉基先生:係,因為有個印。 16 杜淦堃資深大律師:我跟住想你睇番你第一份證人供詞嘅第16 段,你講得好清楚嘅亦都, 17 1511 頁,呢度講清楚你就宏福苑每一座你哋第一次提交有關嘅SDN 嘅日期喇,我 18 哋知道每一份個限期係十四日嘅應該,係咪? 19 梁秉基先生:可以延期囉。 20 杜淦堃資深大律師:係囉,可以延期,但係呢個係你講咗你初初就每一棟大廈佢交嗰個日 21 期,我哋見到係由4 月到9 月,有不同嘅日子,係咪? 22 梁秉基先生:唔。 23 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔。跟住我想你去第30 段,你睇一睇,呢度係1514 頁,你可唔可以 24 讀一讀出嚟畀大家聽呀? 25 梁秉基先生:話我哋入咗之後冇人,我哋... 26 杜淦堃資深大律師:我本來想叫你讀出嚟,我幫你讀喇,好唔好呀? 27 梁秉基先生:好呀。 28 杜淦堃資深大律師:跟住我再問你問題。 29 梁秉基先生:好。 30 杜淦堃資深大律師:“(English Spoken)”「喺提交申請之前,中華發展工程有限公 31 司冇代表係去過宏福苑,去明白究竟個消防系統有冇係閂,係就住有關嘅維修工程 32 又或者係有制定有關嘅防火措施,即係當嗰個有關消防系統閂咗之後。」去第48 33 段,呢個講到你自己嘞,你回答我哋嘅問題話“(English Spoken)”,所以 34 簡單嚟講,你亦都好坦白咁同大家確確認咗,遞交有關嘅通知書或者證書之前,其 35 實你哋中華發展係冇人去過宏福苑去理解嗰個消防裝置其實係點樣樣㗎喇?究竟係 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第九天

64 本謄本由Epiq 編製 啲工程需要關閉消防裝置,同埋有關嘅工程係咪真係要關閉個消防裝置嘅,你同唔 1 同意呀? 2 梁秉基先生:冇落去,係嘅。 3 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔。所以個情況就係咁嘞,宏業叫你哋交SDN,你哋就交,係咪? 4 梁秉基先生:係。 5 杜淦堃資深大律師:你哋冇諗過要做任何嘢,佢哋叫你做,你哋就做,同唔同意? 6 梁秉基先生:同意,但係可唔可以講? 7 杜淦堃資深大律師:我知道你有解釋,你嘅解釋喺你第二份證人供詞裏面講咗。我一陣間會 8 慢慢同你探討你嘅解釋。 9 梁秉基先生:Okay。 10 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係就頭先嘅講法,即係事實上嚟講你係同意嘅,係咪? 11 梁秉基先生:係,冇落過去嘅。 12 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔,只不過你係有解釋點解你咁去做,咁講公唔公道? 13 梁秉基先生:係。 14 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔。咁你同唔同意呀?所以其實中華發展一開始交SDN 畀消防處去關閉 15 有關嘅系統,到之後每一次嘅延期,其實你哋都係好似一個橡皮圖章咁,人哋叫你 16 做你就做,同意嘛? 17 梁秉基先生:係。 18 杜淦堃資深大律師:好嘞,我想問下,呢個橡皮圖章式嘅操作,中華發展喺過去有冇喺其他 19 嘅項目都係咁做呀? 20 梁秉基先生:如果淨係講--因為其實我哋平時做嗰啲係一定自己工人落去嘅,一定自己跟 21 嘅,... 22 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔,咁你... 23 梁秉基先生:...除咗係呢啲做水缸,佢哋要停嗰啲先係我哋...(聽不清)。 24 杜淦堃資深大律師:聽住我嘅問題,可能會簡單少少。呢一個橡皮圖章式嘅方法,即係有人 25 叫你交你就交,自己唔去睇,除咗喺宏福之外,有冇喺其他屋苑做過,有定冇? 26 梁秉基先生:有,都係宏業。 27 杜淦堃資深大律師:都係宏業叫你嘅? 28 梁秉基先生:係。 29 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔。 30 梁秉基先生:有一個。 31 杜淦堃資深大律師:包唔包銅鑼灣美蘭閣呀? 32 梁秉基先生:係呢個囉。 33 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢個喇,係喇。 34 梁秉基先生:呢個。 35 杜淦堃資深大律師:你收咗佢3,000 鈫去做呢樣嘢,係咪? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第九天

65 本謄本由Epiq 編製 梁秉基先生:係嘞。 1 杜淦堃資深大律師:除咗呢個之外仲有冇? 2 梁秉基先生:中星(譯音)但係嗰個係有做572,我哋有人落去跟進。 3 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁你係咪話畀我哋知,除咗宏業之外,你哋係咪冇幫其他人咁做過,淨 4 係宏業啫? 5 梁秉基先生:你知我第二份,我都講,佢都係一個消防承辦商。 6 杜淦堃資深大律師:我明白你有一個解釋,我會慢慢同你探討,你唔使擔心。 7 梁秉基先生:其他嗰啲我哋有落去睇嘅。 8 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係你嘅答案係咪咁呀?呢個係你哋畀宏業嘅服務,其他工程,其他嘅 9 屋苑你哋冇咁做過嘅,係咪? 10 梁秉基先生:因為佢都係消防承辦商。 11 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係你同意我嘅講法? 12 梁秉基先生:係。 13 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係你嘅解釋就係因為宏業都係有關嘅消防裝置工程嘅承辦商,係咪 14 呀? 15 梁秉基先生:係。 16 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋慢慢研究你呢個講法遲啲。 17 梁秉基先生:好。 18 杜淦堃資深大律師:好,有關情況,有啲WhatsApp 嘅紀錄我都想你幫一幫我哋,如果你去 19 R1,13 頁,我哋見到呢個有個WhatsApp 群組嘅,有幾個人,我哋見到上高「暫 20 停消防系統」,跟住有「中華Daisy」,Daisy 係你個同事係咪?鍾小姐 21 梁秉基先生:唔,係,係。 22 杜淦堃資深大律師:裏面有一個係你,嗰個就係你本人,係咪? 23 梁秉基先生:係。 24 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁另外有個「生」(譯音)嗰個係宏業張生,係咪呀? 25 梁秉基先生:係。 26 杜淦堃資深大律師:張生個全名係咩嘢,你知唔知? 27 梁秉基先生:唔知。 28 杜淦堃資深大律師:你淨係知道佢叫張生? 29 梁秉基先生:係。 30 杜淦堃資深大律師:好嘞,你個證人陳述書講過喇,你哋同宏業所有嘅書面通訊都係用呢個 31 群組去做,係咪? 32 梁秉基先生:係。 33 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋見到呢度咁講嘅,呢個紀錄係6 月13 號,呢度寫住「宏盛閣請幫 34 忙下周一安排掛牌」,你見到喇?跟住Daisy 覆佢「收到」,跟住Daisy sent 35 咗啲咩出嚟呢?就sent 咗嗰個一個叫做「消防裝置關閉通告」,就叫宏業張生 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第九天

66 本謄本由Epiq 編製 「敬請張貼在大廈」。你見到喇? 1 梁秉基先生:係。 2 杜淦堃資深大律師:跟住你落去下一頁,就見到張生話「收到」,跟住收到之後呢,我哋見 3 到Daisy 又發份文件出嚟喎,呢個就係個SDN,係咪? 4 梁秉基先生:係。 5 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔。我諗你都會同意,如果呢個就係你哋同宏業基本上所有嘅書面溝 6 通,裏面有好多嘢就冇提過嘅,工程嘅內容完全冇提過,係咪? 7 梁秉基先生:唔。 8 杜淦堃資深大律師:水缸,佢維修嘅水缸嘅狀況完全冇提過喇,係咪? 9 梁秉基先生:喺呢個group 度冇。 10 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔,你所有書面嘅紀錄都冇喇,因為呢個係唯一我哋有嘅書面紀錄吖 11 嘛。 12 梁秉基先生:唯一,係。 13 杜淦堃資深大律師:口頭嘅嘢,我哋陣間講,好唔好? 14 梁秉基先生:唔,好。 15 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔。好嘞,關閉消防系統個必要性,冇任何書面嘅嘢去探討過呢個問 16 題,係咪? 17 梁秉基先生:冇。 18 杜淦堃資深大律師:要關閉幾耐,幾時恢復,又冇探討過,係咪? 19 梁秉基先生:我哋有--電話有追囉。 20 杜淦堃資深大律師:電話講過,你意思係? 21 梁秉基先生:係,有追囉。 22 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係似乎任何文字紀錄都冇,係咪呀? 23 梁秉基先生:冇,因為呢個group 淨係畀啲文件佢。 24 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢個group 唔係淨係畀文件,呢個group 仲有畀訊息㗎,係咪呀? 25 梁秉基先生:少少,係呀,都有。 26 杜淦堃資深大律師:有講嘢㗎嘛? 27 梁秉基先生:有 28 杜淦堃資深大律師:譬如呢度講喇「敬請張貼在大廈」,咁呢啲通告貼喺大廈邊度,大家都 29 冇提過喇,係咪? 30 梁秉基先生:大廈大堂、地下、管理處嗰啲位置。 31 杜淦堃資深大律師:你知唔知有冇貼到喺管理處?你一定唔知,你都冇去過,係咪? 32 梁秉基先生:冇去過。 33 杜淦堃資深大律師:好,我而家想睇啲你交畀消防處嘅文件,你睇下C1-2/1490,我哋睇 34 到張SDN,想你幫幫手。原則上高你同唔同意消防處一定係依賴你哋呢啲承辦商就 35 有關於呢份SDN 裏面做出嘅陳述去決定佢哋採取啲咩嘢行動呢?同意嘛? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第九天

67 本謄本由Epiq 編製 梁秉基先生:係。 1 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢張表格個內容係咪你自己填㗎?定係有伙記填咗畀你簽名? 2 梁秉基先生:唔係,呢份係... 3 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢份我哋--你見到係宏盛閣。 4 梁秉基先生:係。 5 杜淦堃資深大律師:你唔記得可以話唔記得㗎。 6 梁秉基先生:唔係我打,即係但係我簽嘅。 7 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋見到呢度就剔咗關閉消防栓喉轆系統,就冇剔關閉火警警報系統, 8 係咪? 9 梁秉基先生:係。 10 杜淦堃資深大律師:我相信你會同意,take 嗰陣你哋又冇check 過個火警警報系統同埋其 11 他系統有冇閂喇,因為咁做就宏業話畀你知,你哋就照填,係咪? 12 梁秉基先生:咁一定係,我哋淨係知道佢整--做水缸,係囉。。 13 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,因為你哋做嘅嘢就完全係建基於佢同你點講,你哋就點做,係咪? 14 梁秉基先生:唔,係。 15 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,我想你幫一幫我睇呢份表格嘅底部有一項嘅,相信你都熟悉,如果 16 放大個底部,你見到喺註一上高,你見唔見到咁講呀?「上述已關閉嘅消防系統不 17 再由本公司負責有關工程,本公司已把該系統的狀況詳細告知委聘人。」幾時要剔 18 㗎呢個? 19 梁秉基先生:如果呢度再繼續停系統,但係已經我--即係或者即係委聘嗰個人係已經唔搵我 20 哋嘅,咁呀要剔呢項囉。 21 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋今朝睇到通函見到有關嘅規定,即係如果做做下你畀人換咗,咁你 22 要剔番嘅,係咪? 23 梁秉基先生:係。 24 杜淦堃資深大律師:話畀消防處知「喂,唔係我嘞,係第二個承辦商負責嘞」,係咪呀? 25 梁秉基先生:係。 26 杜淦堃資深大律師:所以換句話講你冇剔消防處,基於呢一個部分冇剔到,喺佢哋嘅認知裏 27 面,你就係相關嘅負責有關工程嗰個承辦商,係咪咁講呀? 28 梁秉基先生:唔,係。 29 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係就呢一張form,呢一個項目,消防處嘅呢個認知,根據你咁講就 30 係錯㗎喇,係咪?你哋根本就唔係負責有關工程嘅承辦商,同唔同意呀? 31 梁秉基先生:同意,因為都係講水缸。 32 杜淦堃資深大律師:因為從來都唔係你吖嘛。 33 梁秉基先生:水缸唔係我哋做。 34 杜淦堃資深大律師:係嘞,所以如果係咁講,你又唔剔呢項,消防處以為你係個承辦商,咁 35 消防處攞到嘅資料就唔準確,係咪? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第九天

68 本謄本由Epiq 編製 梁秉基先生:係嘅。 1 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋睇到其他座數嘅SDN 都係咁填嘅,份份都係咁,同意喇,係咪? 2 梁秉基先生:係。 3 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋繼續用宏盛做一個例子,你去1424 頁,我哋見到第二部-- 4 1424,我哋見到--我想你睇第二部分,我哋知道你哋嘅工作喺呢度喇,就係你唔- 5 -第二部分呢度寫住「裝置改裝修理同埋檢測工作」,見到喇? 6 梁秉基先生:唔,唔。 7 杜淦堃資深大律師:你冇做裝置改裝、修理,係咪? 8 梁秉基先生:唔。 9 杜淦堃資深大律師:消防處以為你哋做檢測,你都冇做檢測,係咪? 10 梁秉基先生:呢度水缸係建築檢測,即係佢哋check,因為佢哋做,因為我哋都做唔到呢個 11 即係專業嘅嘢,因為嗰啲講石屎防水,係。 12 杜淦堃資深大律師:所以我諗公道啲,我想話第二部分呢度有關嘅工作,其實就冇一樣係你 13 哋做嘅,裝置改裝、修理、檢測,係咪?檢查? 14 梁秉基先生:嗄。 15 杜淦堃資深大律師:係囉。但係如果你咁填呢一度,消防處就會認為係你哋做喎,同唔同意 16 呀? 17 梁秉基先生:都... 18 杜淦堃資深大律師:佢唔知道有第二個人做喎其實。 19 梁秉基先生:但係如果係講水缸嘅就一定唔係消防承辦商,通常唔係消防承辦商佢自己做, 20 講石屎嗰啲有--即係要專業嗰啲先做到,防水嗰啲。 21 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係換句話講消防處就知道你做唔到個工程,咁佢應該會知道你做唔到 22 改裝裝置同埋修理嘅,檢查你哋做到嘞啩,係咪? 23 梁秉基先生:但係個水缸點樣漏水,或者係... 24 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁你哋作為一個註冊嘅承辦商,嗰個水缸又係消防系統嘅一部分,去睇 25 下有冇漏水唔係好難啫,係咪? 26 梁秉基先生:唔係。 27 杜淦堃資深大律師:係囉。 28 梁秉基先生:但係--係囉,嗰啲滲嗰啲我哋唔知㗎嘛,都係唔係我哋做嘅嘢嚟㗎嘛。 29 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係換句話講,嗰個消防嘅供水缸有冇漏水唔係你哋檢查嘅一部分,你 30 係咪咁同我哋講? 31 梁秉基先生:唔係,我意思係我哋都唔識睇,冇嗰個專業去睇啫。 32 杜淦堃資深大律師:冇專業去睇有冇漏水? 33 梁秉基先生:唔係,個滲水,因為佢--你石屎爆裂嗰啲我哋都唔識。 34 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,搞清楚先,嗰個消防水缸嚟嘅,我哋講緊,唔係食水缸,係咪? 35 梁秉基先生:係,石屎缸,石屎缸嚟㗎嘛,係。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第九天

69 本謄本由Epiq 編製 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,咁你去檢查個系統個運作嘅時候,你每年去做檢查,如果嗰個水缸 1 有漏水,你哋會出聲㗎嘛,係咪? 2 梁秉基先生:係。 3 杜淦堃資深大律師:你嘅意--當然,你可能講話「喂,可能有啲漏水滲漏我哋係檢測唔到個 4 喎」,呢個我明。但係就呢份form 呢度佢解釋有關嘅工作邊個做嘅時候,你哋去 5 填、你哋去交,第二部分裝置、改裝、修理,你話你做唔到,我明吖。檢查工作, 6 基於我哋頭先嘅討論,我相信你會同意你哋應該做到嘅,係咪? 7 梁秉基先生:可以嘅,但係--係,我... 8 杜淦堃資深大律師:亦都係你哋工作嘅一部分,去檢查有冇滲漏,個消防系統,係咪? 9 梁秉基先生:都係同石屎就--水缸我哋睇唔到,都係建築嘅專業。 10 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係你堅持水缸漏水,你哋係睇唔到嘅? 11 梁秉基先生:唔係,我--唔係,如果好明顯梗係睇到,即係例如話石屎老化、爆裂嗰啲我哋 12 都睇唔到。 13 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想問多你一樣嘢先。我哋見到呢一度講,去填呢張form 去交,成張 14 form 都睇唔到有第二個人去檢查呢個系統有冇漏水嘅,係咪? 15 梁秉基先生:係。 16 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢度淨係睇到第二部分,你哋交咗呢張form ,呢度講(English 17 Spoken )完成之工作內容,你哋就填咗(English Spoken ),即係你哋 18 check 咗,係咪? 19 梁秉基先生:唔係我--咪就係... 20 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想講話張form 表達嘅嘢。 21 梁秉基先生:表達嘅嘢,係。 22 杜淦堃資深大律師:表達嘅嘢就係你哋check 咗,係咪? 23 梁秉基先生:唔,唔。 24 杜淦堃資深大律師:跟住“ (English Spoken )” ,狀況評估,抑或(English 25 Spoken),見唔見到? 26 梁秉基先生:唔。 27 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢個都係你哋填,係咪? 28 梁秉基先生:係。 29 杜淦堃資深大律師:好,我哋睇(English Spoken ),跟住有一度叫做(English 30 Spoken),呢度就係一個(English Spoken),跟住右邊寫住“(English 31 Spoken)”,呢個都係你哋向消防處表達嘅信息,係咪? 32 梁秉基先生:唔。 33 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係換句話講,你交咗呢張form,消防處見到嘅就係得你哋,就係你 34 同事Alex Yim 去簽嘅,就係話你哋去睇過,你哋見到個消防缸漏水,所以要維 35 修,同唔同意? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第九天

70 本謄本由Epiq 編製 梁秉基先生:我明你意思,但係... 1 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔係,你同唔同意... 2 梁秉基先生:同意,同意。 3 杜淦堃資深大律師:...睇到張form 嘅意思係,消防估唔到你背後邊個做嘅,知唔知?你 4 交呢張form 嘅內容,你頭先同意咗,佢哋會倚賴你畀佢哋嘅資料㗎嘛,係咪?同 5 意嘛? 6 梁秉基先生:係,同意。 7 杜淦堃資深大律師:點解呢張form 係嚴生簽,唔係你簽?右下角。 8 梁秉基先生:佢... 9 杜淦堃資深大律師:嚴生都冇去過睇過,係咪? 10 梁秉基先生:嚴生都冇睇過。 11 杜淦堃資深大律師:所以佢冇可能知道有冇漏水,要唔要整,係咪? 12 梁秉基先生:唔。 13 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁宏業會唔會自己同嚴生講,定係都係通過你? 14 梁秉基先生:宏業同我哋講佢哋要做水缸防水,咁佢哋標書有寫話水缸需要維修防水,咁我 15 哋覺得做水缸防水嘅,就一定正常係啲石屎有滲漏嗰啲先會做,因為但係佢哋個內 16 容係點樣,就我哋唔知,佢有同我--佢只係同我哋講係呢樣嘢囉。 17 杜淦堃資深大律師:好,其實你都好坦誠嘅,你都講咗,其實你哋冇去過睇過㗎嘛,係咪? 18 梁秉基先生:唔。 19 杜淦堃資深大律師:如果我哋睇番--如果我哋去睇番你哋做過嘅嘢,你哋其實係冇可能知 20 道,第一,嗰啲缸係咪真係有漏水,係咪真係要整,同埋要整係咪真係要熄咗個消 21 防系統,同意? 22 梁秉基先生:係咪冇漏水,呢啲我哋唔知,要check,呢個,建築話畀我哋聽。 23 杜淦堃資深大律師:好,我想問下你,你--又可唔可以咁講,你可唔可以話畀我哋知,要整 24 個水缸係咪一定要閂咗個喉轆系統? 25 梁秉基先生:上水系統。 26 杜淦堃資深大律師:定係其實都要諗下要整個水缸,整啲咩嘢先?有幾嚴重先?同唔同意? 27 梁秉基先生:唔,係。 28 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係換句話講,係有個可能就係,雖然有啲比較簡單嘅工作要做,但係 29 其實有方法唔使熄嘅,只不過要大家去探討一下係咪真係要熄,或者有冇啲方法唔 30 使熄咁耐,同唔同意? 31 梁秉基先生:唔。 32 杜淦堃資深大律師:同意呀呵? 33 梁秉基先生:係。 34 杜淦堃資深大律師:你亦都相信,你亦都同意,可能有啲方法就我哋唔係連續熄多過二十四 35 小時,熄幾個鐘開番,第二日再做,我哋可以開番個系統,都有咁嘅可能,係咪? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第九天

71 本謄本由Epiq 編製 梁秉基先生:其他消防裝置可以嘅。 1 杜淦堃資深大律師:水缸唔可以? 2 梁秉基先生:水缸如--正常應該唔得。 3 杜淦堃資深大律師:正常應該唔得。 4 梁秉基先生:係,除咗... 5 杜淦堃資深大律師:你咁講即係因為你哋冇探討過,所以你只可以講話正常應該唔得,實際 6 上應該得唔得,你哋根本上冇諗過,係咪? 7 梁秉基先生:係,如果做防水... 8 杜淦堃資深大律師:係咪先? 9 梁秉基先生:係。 10 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,好,你繼續解。 11 梁秉基先生:唔係,唔係,我意思做防水應該唔係一日可以即刻做起。 12 杜淦堃資深大律師:我同意理論上高係呢個講法,但係去探討一下佢真係要做啲咩嘢,呢啲 13 係你哋嘅責任,同意? 14 梁秉基先生:唔,同意。 15 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係你完全冇做,同意,係咪? 16 梁秉基先生:係。 17 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋見到頭先你都講咗,八棟大廈你都係咁寫,八棟大廈你都冇去睇 18 過,我今朝畀你睇過通函2021 年嘅1 號,係咪? 19 梁秉基先生:唔。 20 杜淦堃資深大律師:完全唔睇,淨係靠人同你講,亦都冇去探討個消防系統要閂幾耐,同埋 21 呢個係咪合適嘅做法,再加上亦都冇探討過有冇辦法熄短啲,呢個係完全違反咗我 22 哋頭先睇過嘅通函,同唔同意? 23 梁秉基先生:唔,係。 24 杜淦堃資深大律師:同意,係咪? 25 梁秉基先生:係。 26 杜淦堃資深大律師:「唔」即係同意,係咪? 27 梁秉基先生:係。 28 杜淦堃資深大律師:想你幫幫我另外一個題目,呢吹就要你睇一睇你嘅證人陳述書,第二份 29 證人陳述書第55 段。呢個係宏業代表同你講話個防水缸有滲水嘅問題,呢度你咁 30 講嘅,你話基於Gordon 或者張先生對你嘅表述,你就真誠咁樣樣去認為第一,有 31 個(English Spoken),有個正確嘅檢測做咗嘅,係咪? 32 梁秉基先生:我覺得建築佢哋會睇,係。 33 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,而你基於佢哋向你嘅表述,真係有漏水嘅,係咪? 34 梁秉基先生:做防水吖嘛,係。 35 杜淦堃資深大律師:佢呢啲表述佢幾時同你講?講咗一次,其他我相信唔使講幾十次嘅,係 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第九天

72 本謄本由Epiq 編製 咪? 1 梁秉基先生:講一次,咁佢要做防水嘛,同埋... 2 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔係,我想問下你就係,佢一開始第一日搵你已經同你講? 3 梁秉基先生:一開始。 4 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係八棟大廈嘅工作開始之前,佢第一次搵你,就口頭咁同你講,係 5 咪? 6 梁秉基先生:係。 7 杜淦堃資深大律師:因為我見唔到有WhatsApp 講過。以你嘅經驗,整呢啲防水缸要整幾 8 耐? 9 梁秉基先生:呢個真係唔知,因為其實--係,嗰個工序都唔係我哋做到。 10 杜淦堃資深大律師:我明個工序唔係你做,我問你,你都做咗呢行咁多年,你唔係第一次遇 11 到有大廈要修葺防水缸,係咪? 12 梁秉基先生:有,但係唔多。 13 杜淦堃資深大律師:有見過,係咪? 14 梁秉基先生:唔多,係。 15 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔多,但係見過? 16 梁秉基先生:係。 17 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔。因為啲防水缸漏水嘅情況唔係成日發生,係咪? 18 梁秉基先生:都好經常性,因為幾十年樓,好多時都... 19 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,所以如果好經常性發生嘅話,你都應該見過唔少次要做呢啲工程, 20 係咪? 21 梁秉基先生:通常咪就係可能見到缸底會有... 22 杜淦堃資深大律師:你聽我問題答,因為咁樣可能會快少少,對你好啲。 23 梁秉基先生:係,okay,唔好意思,係。 24 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想問下你,以你嘅經驗,你做咗呢行好多年,你喺中華都超過十年, 25 係咪? 26 梁秉基先生:係。 27 杜淦堃資深大律師:要整防水缸所以停牌呢啲事,發生得--係咪好經常會發生嘅事,喺你嘅 28 工作範疇裏面? 29 梁秉基先生:有㗎囉。 30 杜淦堃資深大律師:有囉,所以我咪問你囉,通常要做幾耐? 31 梁秉基先生:大維修唔係話做幾--幾個月喥囉通常。 32 杜淦堃資深大律師:維修水缸通常要整幾個月,你嘅意思係? 33 梁秉基先生:應該係,見過就係。 34 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔係,你見過幾個月啫。 35 梁秉基先生:係。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第九天

73 本謄本由Epiq 編製 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想問下你通常要做幾耐?有冇得講㗎? 1 梁秉基先生:水缸有大、有細,我都唔可以答實你嗰個... 2 杜淦堃資深大律師:可唔可以咁講?有啲可能好快做完,有啲要做耐啲,視乎好多唔同嘅因 3 素,咁講合唔合理? 4 梁秉基先生:係。 5 杜淦堃資深大律師:做幾耐就牽涉關閉個消防喉轆系統幾耐,係咪? 6 梁秉基先生:係。 7 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁你報價嘅時候,一開始嚟搵你「喂,我哋要入個SDN」,有冇同你講 8 今次要整幾耐? 9 梁秉基先生:佢咪講話咁多個--即係一年囉,但係佢冇講話一個--因為唔係同一時間做吖 10 嘛,佢哋話,佢哋同我講話咁多個大約加埋一年。 11 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔,嗄,呢個係你嘅講法,我會慢慢同你去探討。 12 梁秉基先生:係。 13 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係相信你同意,整得越耐,你嘅系統都關閉得越耐,個風險就越高, 14 呢個你明㗎? 15 梁秉基先生:唔,係。 16 杜淦堃資深大律師:如果停得太耐,消防承辦商可能會畀消防處批評個喎,係咪? 17 梁秉基先生:唔。 18 杜淦堃資深大律師:甚至乎被紀律處分嘅風險亦都係會高咗個喎,同意嘛? 19 梁秉基先生:同意。 20 杜淦堃資深大律師:而對大廈安全嘅風險,唔使講,停得越耐就越大,係咪? 21 梁秉基先生:唔,係。 22 杜淦堃資深大律師:所以如果呢個工程又唔係你自己做,你淨係單靠宏業同你講,你一開始 23 嘅時候應該要同佢探討一下,「喂,停咁耐唔掂喎,我都可能有問題個喎」,有冇 24 諗過呀? 25 梁秉基先生:我都有追過。 26 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔係,一開始問你嗰陣,你頭先咪話一開始同你講話八棟停一年嘅? 27 梁秉基先生:但係我唔知佢--即係咁講,我都係預期佢幾個月一座,幾個月一座,咁加埋一 28 年咁樣,但係--係囉。 29 杜淦堃資深大律師:或者我畀你睇啲文件,睇下幫唔幫到你。 30 梁秉基先生:係,係。 31 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋睇下個維修工程進度嘅摘要,我知道你可能唔會記得,或者唔會睇 32 過,但係我哋睇一睇H1/603,H1-3/6033。係,如果你睇6034 最底嗰度,你 33 見到天台缸儲水缸,見唔見到? 34 梁秉基先生:唔。 35 杜淦堃資深大律師:跟住有一段講咗有關嗰個水安全計劃嘅申請,之後嗰句「宏業只可先做 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第九天

74 本謄本由Epiq 編製 消防缸,再整鹹水及淡水缸,屆時借用消防缸」,你見到? 1 梁秉基先生:係。 2 杜淦堃資深大律師:你知唔知道呢個係佢哋嘅安排? 3 梁秉基先生:唔知,唔知。 4 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係佢呢個做法又會影響到你要停個系統幾耐,係咪,同唔同意?好明 5 顯地會影響? 6 梁秉基先生:咁一定喇。 7 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,因為如果你整完個消防缸,跟住再用佢嚟做食水缸,咁個系統咪要 8 停再耐啲,係咪?呢個你完全唔知嘅,冇人同你講,係咪? 9 梁秉基先生:冇講過。 10 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁我哋去睇下6077 頁,你睇下第12 項,宏業話會先進行消防缸嘅防 11 水工程,施工期約各1.5 個月,此項目不影響水安全計劃嘅資助,在未完全批盪 12 前,都可以更換啲炮筒喉,跟住同埋表示目前炮筒喉沒有發現問題,呢啲都係一啲 13 佢哋同嗰個水缸工程相關,影響消防系統嘅細節,都冇人話過畀你聽,係咪? 14 梁秉基先生:我唔知㗎。 15 杜淦堃資深大律師:係囉,你冇問過,佢又冇講過,係咪? 16 梁秉基先生:唔。 17 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔,好,咁你有冇--你見到停咁耐,你有冇去問一問管理處? 18 梁秉基先生:冇,我都唔識管理處。 19 杜淦堃資深大律師:嗄,你都冇去過,你都唔識佢。其實管理處一個人你哋都唔識㗎,係 20 咪? 21 梁秉基先生:唔識。 22 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,即係問邊個都唔知? 23 梁秉基先生:唔知。 24 杜淦堃資深大律師:好,我哋去--我想問番你頭先你講嗰個事情,你都提咗我哋,你個報價 25 單喺Bundle R1/第1 頁,我哋頭先睇過呢份文件,你見到上面第二項寫咗「申 26 報以上大廈樓宇消防裝置因工程而關閉通知書,消防處則規定每次只可關閉十四 27 日,所以每十四日同消防處申請延期,貴司預計停一年」,呢個係一開始嘅時候報 28 價已經講咗畀你聽,係咪? 29 梁秉基先生:唔。 30 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想問下你呢個報價,呢度寫住個數量就八單,單價就$6,500,總價 31 就$52,000。我想話佢停幾耐,你每次入,佢停一次同停一百次,你哋收嘅價錢相 32 信唔同嘅,係咪? 33 梁秉基先生:都冇㗎,八單就當佢即係一座咁計囉。 34 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係你哋嘅收費嚟講,停一次同停六十次都係一樣嘅,你意思係咪咁? 35 梁秉基先生:冇諗佢--係囉,總之咪就係咁多。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第九天

75 本謄本由Epiq 編製 杜淦堃資深大律師:定係你呢個單價你其實預咗要停一年? 1 梁秉基先生:唔係。 2 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係佢一開始話畀你知佢停一年吖嘛。 3 梁秉基先生:但係佢唔係同一時間去做吖嘛。 4 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔。咁至於幾時做,要停幾耐,你而家同我講你冇諗㗎嗰陣,係咪? 5 梁秉基先生:咪我預佢都係幾個月一座咁囉應該。 6 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想同你探討下你呢個解釋,如果你去你第二份證人供詞1875 頁,我 7 哋去到第48 段,文件夾1884。你第二份證人供詞嘗試去解釋你嘅立場同埋你點解 8 咁做。因為有少少--你會記得,你第一份證人供詞其實係回應委員會代你提出啲問 9 題,咁我哋頭先都講咗,其實你哋好坦白咁認咗你哋冇去過,基本上宏業叫你哋點 10 做,你就點做。第二份你哋嘗試畀一啲解釋嘅,48 段開始,你嘗試去解釋話「貴司 11 預計停一年」,頭先我哋見到你嗰張報價嗰度嗰一句,咁簡單啲嚟講,你嘅解釋 12 「預計停一年」呢一句係講緊成個宏福苑嗰個項目個長度,唔係個延期嘅長度,係 13 咪? 14 梁秉基先生:係。 15 杜淦堃資深大律師:所以我哋見到你呢度講,第 50 段,你就話“ (English 16 Spoken)”,我想問一問你一樣嘢,其實停一次十四日同停三十次,你哋個工夫 17 好唔同個喎,係咪? 18 梁秉基先生:咪就係要續期咁樣續。 19 杜淦堃資深大律師:係囉,十四日要應酬佢哋一次喎,如果係? 20 梁秉基先生:係。 21 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁冇理由做一次又係收咁多錢,做一年又係收咁多錢,係咪? 22 梁秉基先生:但係個理解係我哋係咁樣,係咁囉,因為之前... 23 杜淦堃資深大律師:我明你而家話個理解係咁,但係我相信你都同意,從你哋嘅立場,如果 24 有一個承建商有棟大廈搵你哋,話「喂,我哋想入一份SDN,我哋其實三--個工程 25 六日搞掂㗎嘞,所以入一份,招呼消防處一次」,咁你哋會報一個價,但係如果係 26 要做十六次嘅話,其實工夫多好多個喎,係咪? 27 梁秉基先生:但係佢哋每一次,即係譬如有做呢啲水缸,都唔會話畀你聽你係做幾耐,即係 28 只係我哋追佢或者佢會返嚟話幾時做完。 29 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係你哋嗰啲簽名逐次會收錢,因為你哋有牌,你個簽名其實係好寶貴 30 嘅,簽一次名同簽十六次名,對於你哋嚟講都係唔同嘅工夫嚟個喎,係咪? 31 梁秉基先生:唔係,我真係預佢就咁一單--即係一個--一座一座咁樣計。 32 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想話你呢度咁講,第50 段,你話“(English Spoken)”,你 33 指嘅“(English Spoken)”係乜嘢? 34 梁秉基先生:咪只係佢同我講話由頭到尾應該一年囉,即係但係分階段去做吖嘛。 35 杜淦堃資深大律師:你呢個講法,同我哋睇番R1/第1 頁,你呢度咁寫個喎,你寫到明「預 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第九天

76 本謄本由Epiq 編製 計要停一年」,個「停」字係其實停咩嘢?你講緊停個消防系統,係咪? 1 梁秉基先生:咪暫停嗰個囉,但係佢係話--我只係照講啫,佢當其時3、4 月講話佢哋應該 2 做到第二年3、4 月喥,所以咪寫咗話係一年囉,但係我哋入SDN 都唔係一日,即 3 係一份過八棟一齊停吖嘛,我哋都係分咗唔同嘅日子去停,所以佢... 4 杜淦堃資深大律師:第一件事,佢同你講係整個工程要做一年,係咪? 5 梁秉基先生:係。 6 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔係個水缸要做一年,係咪? 7 梁秉基先生:咪就係停嗰個大約嗰個要入嗰個時段囉,即係但係唔同時段--即係唔同座數去 8 入,唔係一次過。 9 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係你嘅意思係整晒全部水缸由頭至尾你哋預計係一年,所以你就寫要 10 停一年? 11 梁秉基先生:佢同我講嘅。 12 杜淦堃資深大律師:佢同你咁講,所以你咁報畀佢,係咪? 13 梁秉基先生:係咁樣寫,係。 14 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係換句話講,其實你喺呢度個報價都包咗其實就唔係十四日,每一棟 15 都可能要入多過一次,係咪? 16 梁秉基先生:係。 17 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁你報價嘅時候亦都唔清楚,亦都冇探過每一棟幾時停,每一棟停幾 18 耐,係咪? 19 梁秉基先生:冇講。 20 杜淦堃資深大律師:完全冇諗過直頭,係咪? 21 梁秉基先生:唔係,佢有講話唔係同一時間,同埋佢話唔知幾個月一座咁大約,即係同埋睇 22 番我哋入都係分咗好多個月先入嘅。 23 杜淦堃資深大律師:你分咗好多個月入同埋你都入咗好多次添,我哋知道。你睇番你第一份 24 證人供詞第17 段。 25 梁秉基先生:唔。 26 杜淦堃資深大律師:你都好坦白嘅其實。我唔讀出嚟,你睇一睇,我先同你講。睇完,係㘇 27 咪? 28 梁秉基先生:睇完。 29 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係其實你如果我冇理解錯,根本上就係一個機械式嘅操作,每十四 30 日,佢話哋未做完,我哋咪入囉,係唔係咁呀? 31 梁秉基先生:有追佢哋,係。 32 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係你口頭同佢講快啲、快啲? 33 梁秉基先生:未得咪再入,係。 34 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係你哋催完唔得,咁咪照入囉,你乜都唔會做,係咪? 35 梁秉基先生:唔,唔。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第九天

77 本謄本由Epiq 編製 杜淦堃資深大律師:第18 段你睇下,你就講得好清楚,你話「基於你嘅記憶,咁就一路去 1 交。就呢八座大廈而言,你一路就交,交到去其實大火嗰日都係咁照做嘅,係咪? 2 梁秉基先生:唔。 3 杜淦堃資深大律師:你記唔記得你總共入幾多份SDN? 4 梁秉基先生:八座都有入。 5 杜淦堃資深大律師:記唔記得入咗幾多份大概?你簽咗好多名,所以我想問你。 6 梁秉基先生:唔記得。 7 杜淦堃資深大律師:你入咗八十五份。 8 梁秉基先生:八座? 9 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔。我唔帶你逐一去睇,因為我哋check 過。宏仁就入咗五次,由9 10 月4 號2025 年入到大火當日;宏道就入咗九次添,由7 月11 號去到大火當日; 11 宏新入咗十次,由7 月4 號去到大火當日;宏新入十三次,由5 月16 號去到大火 12 當日;宏泰就最耐,十六次,由4 月7 號去到大火當日;宏昌五次,由9 月5 號 13 去到大火當日;宏盛十一次,由6 月16 號去到大火當日;宏志都係十六次,由4 14 月7 號去到大火當日。 15 陸啟康法官:宏昌係幾多次? 16 杜淦堃資深大律師:宏昌閣係五次。 17 陸啟康法官:宏盛? 18 杜淦堃資深大律師:宏盛十一次。 19 陸啟康法官:唔該。 20 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想同你探討另外一個講法,你第二份證人陳述書嘅第60 段,你呢個 21 講法好清晰咁話到畀我哋知,你話「每一次續期之前,我都會同張先生去確認一下 22 究竟啲工作完成未。」最少都八十五次,你入咗八十五份,係咪? 23 梁秉基先生:有啲係兩份一齊入嘅。 24 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,冇錯,因為如果幾棟一齊就唔使再溝通,你嗰八十五次都係打電話 25 似乎,係咪呀?我見唔到喺WhatsApp 群組度催過佢一次因為 26 梁秉基先生:有嘅,喺電話嗰度。 27 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,電話嘅。唔發個短訊畀佢話「喂,做快啲,搞唔掂」? 28 梁秉基先生:有,都有發過。 29 杜淦堃資深大律師:有一次,唔好意思,我陣間再同你睇一睇。我想問下你,佢每次同你講 30 未搞掂要再入,基本上你都係同佢講番要快啲,係咪? 31 梁秉基先生:咪係整好未喇。 32 杜淦堃資深大律師:講嚟做乜啫,次次都係咁㗎喇,佢整好佢自然會話你知,同唔同意? 33 梁秉基先生:唔。 34 杜淦堃資深大律師:因為佢同你講咗,你都係乜都唔做啫,咁講公唔公道? 35 梁秉基先生:唔。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第九天

78 本謄本由Epiq 編製 杜淦堃資深大律師:係咪呀? 1 梁秉基先生:唔,係。 2 杜淦堃資深大律師:我用宏建閣做一個例子,如果我哋去睇番有關嘅WhatsApp 紀錄,去 3 bundle R1 第8 頁,我哋見到5 月16 號Daisy 就send 咗個SDN,係咪? 4 梁秉基先生:唔。 5 杜淦堃資深大律師:跟住我哋睇番呢個紀錄,我哋見到Daisy 5 月16 號,跟住6 月12, 6 跟住6 月27,佢Daisy 都幾盡責,佢自自動動都會一路send 啲SDN 畀佢嘅, 7 係咪? 8 梁秉基先生:入咗佢都會掟番。 9 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係佢自動波每十四日就會搞一次? 10 梁秉基先生:係。 11 杜淦堃資深大律師:佢喺呢啲自動操作嘅途中,我都完全見唔到有人提過有任何紀錄喺呢個 12 群組,你頭先講,你話呢個係你哋差唔多全部嘅書面紀錄,係咪? 13 梁秉基先生:最主要畀番佢哋即係有呢個紀錄囉,係嘞。 14 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係我想問下你點解冇發生過,就係「張生,我都入咗十五次囉喎,你 15 搞成點呀?」點解冇喺呢度追佢嘅? 16 梁秉基先生:冇喺個群組,呢個群組純粹係真係畀文件,我就喺電話同佢講。 17 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁我對你公道啲,我哋睇37 頁。睇第37 頁,我哋見到9 月嗰陣嘅情 18 況,都係Daisy send 啲SDN 出嚟,跟住就又send 番啲相關嘅關閉通告出嚟, 19 因為要改個日子,所以咪Daisy 做晒send 出嚟,咁佢三份SDN 就三份通告。我 20 哋睇到去到第39 頁,你見到佢咁講,Daisy 咁講「呢三棟原定預期去到10 月, 21 我哋需要再繼續延期,啲通告我預去到12 月至1 月左右,想請問下你哋日期方面 22 暫時夠唔夠用?」呢個係Daisy 講嘅,係咪? 23 梁秉基先生:係。 24 杜淦堃資深大律師:因為佢一問,就問佢幾個月夠唔夠用? 25 梁秉基先生:唔係,佢畀定啲通告佢哋,等佢哋... 26 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係其實嗰下即係佢都係做--Daisy 係文員嚟嘅啫,係咪? 27 梁秉基先生:文員。 28 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係Daisy 個操作就係睇嚟你哋去到咁耐,我一次過畀一堆你,等你 29 之後夠用,係咪咁? 30 梁秉基先生:唔係,因為唔使每一次,咁佢都係做嘢就一次過整定啫。 31 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢個都係Daisy,即係你哋公司似乎個習慣都係咁,係咪?一次過做 32 定。 33 梁秉基先生:咁佢...(聽不清) 34 杜淦堃資深大律師:完全點解我想問你,呢個冇反映到任何意識話一次過準備幾個月嘅通告 35 或者幾個月嘅SDN 係一個妥當嘅做法嚟嘅,同唔同意? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第九天

79 本謄本由Epiq 編製 梁秉基先生:佢呢個係通過嚟㗎。 1 杜淦堃資深大律師:要做通告,即係諗住繼續停喇,係咪? 2 梁秉基先生:但係如果完嘅,佢就會通知我哋去取消。 3 杜淦堃資深大律師:所以我哋見到張生有講過電話嘅,同Daisy,「剛與你通話,請按照這 4 時間,謝謝。」係咪? 5 梁秉基先生:唔。 6 杜淦堃資深大律師:跟住你望落去發生咩嘢事呢?就係Daisy 一次過就畀咗--發咗一批宏 7 建、宏泰、宏志大約三個月嘅文件畀佢,見唔見到? 8 梁秉基先生:唔。 9 杜淦堃資深大律師:就個時間係由2025 年10 月31 號到2026 年1 月22 號嘅關閉消防 10 裝置通告。你嘅證據就係喺每一次有呢啲延期嘅時候,你都會追張生,係咪? 11 梁秉基先生:嗄。 12 杜淦堃資深大律師:而嗰個幾十次,因為我知唔係八十五次,因為有啲group 埋一齊做, 13 如果八十五次似乎都係通過電話嘅,咁你同張生通過幾十次電話,係咪? 14 梁秉基先生:有通電話。 15 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁你應該都有紀錄同佢通過幾十次電話嘅,係咪? 16 梁秉基先生:唔記得咁多,...(聽不清) 17 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔係,我哋呢兩個禮拜都睇到好多電話紀錄,係咪? 18 梁秉基先生:唔。 19 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係你冇攞到任何紀錄出嚟話你同佢通過幾十次電話,我想問一問你呢 20 個講法你覺得係唔係事實? 21 梁秉基先生:我有搵佢,有追過佢囉。 22 杜淦堃資深大律師:可唔可以咁講?可能你真係有問過下佢延期延咗好耐囉喎,但係你一定 23 唔係每一次都追佢,係唔係呀?同唔同意? 24 梁秉基先生:有時會。 25 杜淦堃資深大律師:吓? 26 梁秉基先生:會嘅,即係...(聽不清) 27 杜淦堃資深大律師:會即係同意定唔同意我講法?我而家同你講,你講話每次都追佢呢個講 28 法一定唔係真,係咪呀? 29 梁秉基先生:我有搵佢嘅,不過... 30 杜淦堃資深大律師:有搵過下佢,係咪呀? 31 梁秉基先生:有追佢嘅。 32 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想問番你另外一個題目,頭先我同你冇幾耐之前探討過。 33 梁秉基先生:唔。 34 杜淦堃資深大律師:我見到一樣我唔係好明白嘅嘢,我哋睇番喺2025 年6 月16 號嘅 35 SDN,喺C1-2/1490 頁。Sorry,縮番細少少去睇。我哋見到呢一份係我哋之前 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第九天

80 本謄本由Epiq 編製 睇過,6 月16 號消防處就收到宏盛閣(English Spoken)過嚟呢份SDN,我 1 哋睇左上角就知道個日期,係咪? 2 梁秉基先生:係。 3 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋之前睇過有關於宏盛閣嘅FS251 嘅,我都想去你睇番,你睇下 4 1424 下一頁,呢份係FS251,見到嘛? 5 梁秉基先生:係。 6 杜淦堃資深大律師:係咪? 7 梁秉基先生:係。 8 杜淦堃資深大律師:你睇下右下角,放大,都係6 月16 號個日期。 9 梁秉基先生:係。 10 杜淦堃資深大律師:如果你睇左上角,縮番細睇左上角,我就見到fax 嗰個日期,消防處嗰 11 面佢收fax 有個日子,係2025 年10 月19 號似乎,13,sorry,11 月13 定 12 19?19,你話畀我知,睇到嘛?11 月19。 13 梁秉基先生:19 呀?唔知3 定9。 14 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔緊要,13 同19 嗰個分別唔係好大,只係證實咗我有老花啫。呢個我 15 想你幫一幫我嘅就係,其實我哋見到呢份文件6 月簽,但係似乎係11 月就fax, 16 點解嘅? 17 梁秉基先生:唔係,我哋續期嗰個時候有夾埋畀佢,fax 番過嚟,佢再fax 多次過嚟畀我 18 哋。 19 杜淦堃資深大律師:係你fax 畀佢定佢fax 畀你? 20 梁秉基先生:呢個應該係收。 21 杜淦堃資深大律師:你哋邊個收先? 22 梁秉基先生:即係我哋收佢哋fax 過嚟嘅嘢咁就。 23 杜淦堃資深大律師:你會畀佢先,第一次係你fax 畀佢,係咪? 24 梁秉基先生:係,係。 25 杜淦堃資深大律師:跟住你嘅意思係佢又fax 番過嚟,係咪? 26 梁秉基先生:係。 27 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋睇下右下角,呢個係Alex 簽嗰份文件,係咪? 28 梁秉基先生:係。 29 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁6 月16 號我哋見到有一個傳真,我想問下你同一份嘢fax 咗幾多 30 次? 31 梁秉基先生:你指fax 幾多次係? 32 杜淦堃資深大律師:點解我想你幫幫手,如果你睇文件夾B2/1697,同一份文件嚟嘅呢份, 33 睇下右下角,見唔見到個日子? 34 梁秉基先生:唔,見到。 35 杜淦堃資深大律師:睇番左上角,呢個就係2025 年10 月3 號,你見到嘛? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第九天

81 本謄本由Epiq 編製 梁秉基先生:係。 1 杜淦堃資深大律師:你睇1699 頁,同一份文件嚟嘅,10 月16 號,跟住你再睇下1701, 2 10 月30,見唔見到? 3 梁秉基先生:唔。 4 杜淦堃資深大律師:跟住1703,11 月13,我哋縮番細少少,你睇番右下角。 5 梁秉基先生:唔。 6 杜淦堃資深大律師:都係嗰份10 月16 號嘅文件。 7 梁秉基先生:係。 8 杜淦堃資深大律師:個左上角睇一睇,我哋都係講緊宏盛,係咪? 9 梁秉基先生:係。 10 杜淦堃資深大律師:我呢份6 月16 號簽嘅文件,我想問下你點解同一份文件要fax 咁多份 11 畀消防處? 12 梁秉基先生:消防處要夾埋畀佢。 13 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係換句話講,你6 月簽咗,跟住每一次去延期又fax 番同一份嘢畀消 14 防處? 15 梁秉基先生:係,我同事應該係咁。 16 杜淦堃資深大律師:其實呢份嘢幾時簽㗎?係唔係6 月簽,你知唔知?你知定唔知先? 17 梁秉基先生:係6 月簽呢個。 18 杜淦堃資深大律師:係6 月簽,係咪? 19 梁秉基先生:佢嗰個fax 日期應該係即係消防處返嚟嗰個日期嚟嘅。 20 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係你嘅意思係呢個日期係消防處fax 番畀你? 21 梁秉基先生:左上角,係呀。 22 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係消防處唔會次次都fax 番同一份嘢畀你㗎嘛,係咪? 23 梁秉基先生:但係我哋電--因為我哋係電腦收fax,佢唔會有咁樣打即係呢個字,即係左上 24 角呢個。 25 杜淦堃資深大律師:你哋收嗰陣唔會有?你哋電腦收吖嘛。但係你fax 畀佢... 26 梁秉基先生:唔係,即係佢哋fax 過嚟咪有。 27 杜淦堃資深大律師:佢fax 過嚟就有。 28 梁秉基先生:應該係咁。 29 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁你點解話你fax 過去冇呢? 30 梁秉基先生:電腦fax 應該冇啩,因為我都唔係好知。 31 杜淦堃資深大律師:你唔係好清楚,係咪?總之咁你可唔可以確認一樣嘢,呢一份文件你哋 32 係唔係fax 過去畀消防處好多次? 33 梁秉基先生:係。 34 杜淦堃資深大律師:你都認喇,總之唔好理嗰個印係點,同一份嘅文件fax 嚟fax 去,但 35 係我哋哋有紀錄,呢一份文件係你哋fax 去畀消防處,fax 咗好多次嘅,你同意, 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第九天

82 本謄本由Epiq 編製 係咪? 1 梁秉基先生:係。 2 杜淦堃資深大律師:同意我哋就唔使帶你慢慢睇呢啲fax 紀錄。好,我想問下你就係個日 3 期,我哋最早嘅紀錄,你哋fax 畀消防處係10 月3 號,嗰份文件係6 月簽嘅,點 4 解會10 月fax 畀佢? 5 梁秉基先生:咪續期嗰陣時連埋個SDN 一齊fax 畀佢。 6 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁點解唔喺一開始6 月份交SDN 嗰陣,又同一時間畀呢份FS251 佢, 7 點解10 月先出現呢份文件? 8 梁秉基先生:應該係之前出咗,但係消防冇叫我fax 過,即係冇要求,跟住佢哋打嚟話要, 9 咁咪fax 過去。 10 杜淦堃資深大律師:係唔係咁呀?係唔係消防處收到個SDN 同埋你申請咗咁多次之後,消防 11 處就話「喂,整番份FS251 嚟。」係唔係咁? 12 梁秉基先生:251。 13 杜淦堃資深大律師:整番份FS251 嚟,係咪? 14 梁秉基先生:係,係。 15 杜淦堃資深大律師:你同意吖嘛? 16 梁秉基先生:係。 17 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想你睇R1 第48 頁,因為喺你WhatsApp 紀錄度我哋見到咁講嘅, 18 張生又係,你哋就咁同宏業張生講,係唔係你嚟㗎?講呢個。 19 梁秉基先生:係,係。 20 杜淦堃資深大律師:「宏業張生,消防處要求每一份都加張證書,另外最好儘快搞好就回復 21 系統,頂唔到消防處太耐。」嗰個證書基本上就係FS251,係咪?得一份證書咋 22 嘛,講嚟講去都係。 23 梁秉基先生:係。 24 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想問你喺10 月3 號之前,似乎冇人喺呢個群組發過呢啲FS251,係 25 咪? 26 梁秉基先生:冇。 27 杜淦堃資深大律師:根本上冇人提過呢啲證書,係咪? 28 梁秉基先生:唔。 29 杜淦堃資深大律師:所以就因為咁,因為佢話「喂,整番張證書」,所以到10 月嘅時候, 30 你哋就要畀番張FS251 佢,係咪? 31 梁秉基先生:Fax 番過去畀佢睇。 32 杜淦堃資深大律師:Fax 番過去畀佢睇。亦都係咁,所以先至簽份FS251 出嚟啫,係咪? 33 梁秉基先生:唔係,之前已經出咗。 34 杜淦堃資深大律師:6 月嗰陣冇fax 過畀佢嘅,係咪? 35 梁秉基先生:冇。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第九天

83 本謄本由Epiq 編製 杜淦堃資深大律師:冇,係喇。你嘅意思係6 月已經簽定,但係10 月嘅時候有人追你,你 1 先send 去畀佢? 2 梁秉基先生:係。 3 杜淦堃資深大律師:點解要咁做? 4 梁秉基先生:因為佢平時都係寫「如有」先畀,所以我哋唔係一定畀嘅,同埋通常就員工 5 畀。 6 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係換句話講,如果我冇理解錯,你嘅講法係我都唔知佢搞幾耐,搞幾 7 多次,整定份嘢先,所以就如果搞好耐,消防要我咪send 呢份嘢畀佢頂住先,係 8 咪? 9 梁秉基先生:冇要求,我哋就冇fax。 10 杜淦堃資深大律師:冇要求,你哋就唔會做多餘嘅工夫,係咪? 11 梁秉基先生:唔。 12 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係到佢有要求,你就攞番6 月份準備好,已經煮好嗰張,係咪咁呀? 13 梁秉基先生:咪畀佢。 14 杜淦堃資深大律師:你個訊息裏面話消防處話--「喂,嚟囉喎,喂,頂唔到消防處太耐」, 15 呢個講法就係因為消防嗰面都追你哋,係咪? 16 梁秉基先生:係,有打電話嚟問。 17 杜淦堃資深大律師:如果--可唔可以咁講,你都做咗十幾年呢行,其實你唔止十幾年,之前 18 啲公司都係做消防系統,係咪? 19 梁秉基先生:唔,唔。 20 杜淦堃資深大律師:你都做咗好耐,平時每十四日入一次去做一個工程,如果唔係連環入咗 21 咁多次,消防唔會打電話嚟追嘅,係咪? 22 梁秉基先生:可能一兩個月會打嚟。 23 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係你就咁做一份,十四日續期一次、兩次? 24 梁秉基先生:幾次會打嚟一次。 25 杜淦堃資深大律師:幾次可能會打嚟,係咪? 26 梁秉基先生:係。 27 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係佢哋見到都唔對路,係咪? 28 梁秉基先生:係,一啲啲喇。 29 杜淦堃資深大律師:所以如果你真係去研究過個工程要做幾耐,真係去認真處理呢件事,我 30 相信唔需要發出呢個資訊,係咪? 31 梁秉基先生:唔。 32 杜淦堃資深大律師:同意?換句話講,其實你發呢個資訊嘅時候,你都知道你哋係違反晒消 33 防處啲要求,但係你就歇埋雙眼繼續做,到人哋追你,咪攞份簽定嘅嘢出嚟頂住先 34 囉,咁講公唔公道? 35 梁秉基先生:未完吖嘛,咁未完。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第九天

84 本謄本由Epiq 編製 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁講公唔公道?吓? 1 梁秉基先生:係。 2 杜淦堃資深大律師:主席,呢個係一個適當嘅時間。 3 陸啟康法官:我哋休會十分鐘。 4

5 15 時21 分聆訊押後 6 15 時31 分聆訊恢復 7

8 陸啟康法官:請繼續。 9 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,梁先生,我知道要你出嚟講番呢啲事情都好困難,我都多謝你嘅配 10 合。我想今日你嘅作供完畢,等你唔使聽日再返嚟,畀大家再問,所以我會儘量簡 11 短,但係有啲嘢希望你明白,我哋職責所在,一定要問你。 12 梁秉基先生:唔該。 13 杜淦堃資深大律師:我第一樣唔明嘅,就係想問下你,我哋睇嗰份FS251,1424 頁,譬如 14 C1-2,你呢份嘢點解會搞咗出嚟,就係你6 月簽訂,即係頂咗好耐頂唔順嗰陣, 15 就攞出嚟畀消防處睇,點解fax 一份咁嘅嘢畀消防處可以繼續頂落去? 16 梁秉基先生:佢哋要啫,我唔係咩,佢哋要。 17 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係事實上,你嘅意思係消防叫你入份咁嘅嘢嚟畀佢,係咪呀? 18 梁秉基先生:係。 19 杜淦堃資深大律師:你話佢哋要,係咪即係對方要求呀? 20 梁秉基先生:因為之前有啲都係類似,都係要咁樣做。 21 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔,即係你嘅認知就係如果申請得好,個延期好耐嘅時候,入份FS251 22 就係消防嗰方面嘅要求,係咪咁先?係定唔係? 23 梁秉基先生:都... 24 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢個係你--換句話講,容許我再問得清楚啲,入呢份嘢去頂住消防嗰面 25 係佢哋叫你,定你哋自己主動做㗎? 26 梁秉基先生:我哋會出定嘅,但係佢哋有機會要攞囉。 27 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔,即係換句話講,你哋會準備定? 28 梁秉基先生:係。 29 杜淦堃資深大律師:你知道佢哋有機會要攞? 30 梁秉基先生:即係有啲其他,譬如有啲喉轆爛咗,咁我哋都要出定... 31 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔係,唔係,你聽我講先。 32 梁秉基先生:嗄。 33 杜淦堃資深大律師:我知道你準備定嘅呢份嘢,你會6 月就準備好。 34 梁秉基先生:嗄。 35 杜淦堃資深大律師:消防催嘅時候,我知道你攞呢份嘢出嚟頂住吖嘛你話。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第九天

85 本謄本由Epiq 編製 梁秉基先生:畀佢囉。 1 杜淦堃資深大律師:係嘞,咁呢份嘢,你畀佢嗰陣係佢哋要求定係你哋自己覺得我攞咗呢份 2 嘢出嚟可以頂住先? 3 梁秉基先生:佢要求,我哋亦都要整定囉。 4 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係兩樣都係呀?佢又問過你,你哋又知道頂得順嘅攞呢份嘢出嚟? 5 梁秉基先生:佢哋要吖嘛。 6 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁我想問下你,點解延咗期咁多次,fax 番同一份嘢去咁多次,係可以 7 頂住消防處? 8 梁秉基先生:唔代表話頂咗--頂住,佢哋要啫。 9 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係點講?我哋頭先探討過喇,我見到你fax 咗好多次畀佢喎,佢次次 10 都問你攞番同一份嘢,你係咪即係咁講? 11 梁秉基先生:我夾埋落去囉。 12 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔,即係你覺得夾咗就可以頂住嘞? 13 梁秉基先生:唔係咁嘅意思。 14 杜淦堃資深大律師:「頂住」嘅意思即係咩嘢意思?你睇番你個WhatsApp。 15 梁秉基先生:哦,你講WhatsApp 嗰個? 16 杜淦堃資深大律師:係呀,你話... 17 梁秉基先生:唔係,即係我唔係講--呢個話頂,即係意思係佢會係咁打電話嚟。 18 杜淦堃資深大律師:係嘞,頂唔到消防太耐吖嘛,咁所以我嘅意思就係要入一份呢份嘢,最 19 好儘快回覆消防系統,頂唔到消防處幾耐嘞,所以你就入呢份嘢去頂住佢哋囉,係 20 咪呀? 21 梁秉基先生:咁佢哋要...(聽不清)。 22 杜淦堃資深大律師:係囉。 23 梁秉基先生:係。 24 杜淦堃資深大律師:我就係問你點解你覺得入份一模一樣嘅嘢入咁多次,係可以頂住消防處 25 呀?你解唔解釋得到? 26 梁秉基先生:佢哋要見到囉佢哋。 27 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔。我哋唔討論--我哋唔再討論你哋呢個行為係咪違反咗我哋之前睇過 28 一份通函嘅要求,因為你頭先都好坦白咁承認咗,其實你哋真係冇好自律咁去考慮 29 你哋呢啲行為係咪違反通函嘅要求嘅,係咪?同意嘛? 30 梁秉基先生:係。 31 杜淦堃資深大律師:你都同意,如果睇番通函嘅要求,明顯地你哋係冇履行你哋嘅責任,違 32 反晒通函裏面基本上我頭先帶你睇過每一項嘅要求,同意嘛? 33 梁秉基先生:唔,係。 34 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔。呢個情況之下,我相信你作為一個持牌嘅承辦商,你都知道,其實 35 消防處有成套制度喺度你哋去攞牌,有紀律聆訊,亦都需要相關有資格嘅人士係真 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第九天

86 本謄本由Epiq 編製 係處理有關嘅工程,其實喺好大程度上,佢哋都係依靠你哋嘅自律嘅,係咪呀? 1 梁秉基先生:係。 2 杜淦堃資深大律師:而你哋嘅行為明顯濫用咗消防處對你哋嘅信任,同唔同意? 3 梁秉基先生:係,係,係。 4 杜淦堃資深大律師:你第二份證人供詞第19 段,1878 頁,我想同你睇一睇你個解釋,等大 5 家知道你個說法,因為你上個禮拜入呢份證人供詞明顯地係想解釋點解你哋咁做。 6 第一份證人供詞解得唔夠。似乎喺19 段,我哋睇到你話--你話,第18 段先 7 “(English Spoken)”,第19“(English Spoken)”,即係第一個情 8 況,你哋去睇過。第二呢,就係你哋作為一個註冊承辦商,係幫另外一間公司去 9 做,而嗰間公司本身自己都係一個註冊嘅承辦商,係咪咁呀? 10 梁秉基先生:係。 11 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係第二個情況就係你幫佢哋遞文件,喺呢個情況之下,你哋覺得你哋 12 唔使落場睇下,係咪咁? 13 梁秉基先生:係,佢都係註冊承辦商吖嘛,係。 14 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔,因為佢都註冊吖嘛。 15 梁秉基先生:係呀。 16 杜淦堃資深大律師:所以你就唔使自己去睇嘞。我哋頭先睇過嗰個2021 年第1 號嘅通函, 17 我可唔可以咁向你查詢呢?似乎法律就唔係咁講嘅,其實係要維修工程嗰個註冊承 18 辦商去遞交嗰個SDN 嘅,第一,你同唔同意睇完個通函嘅內容似乎係咁?我哋先唔 19 好理行業嘅做法,或者你哋嘅做法,淨係睇個通函嘅內容,你同唔同意其實應該係 20 處理工程嗰個註冊承辦商去交,同唔同意? 21 梁秉基先生:如果我係做嗰樣嘢就係囉,水缸唔係我做㗎嘛。 22 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔。所以你嘅認知就係你覺得你幫另外一間註冊咗嘅公司,如果講得俗 23 少少,我齋遞文件嘅啫,呢個做法係穩妥嘅,係咪呀? 24 梁秉基先生:即係係囉,佢呢個--因為水缸唔係我哋做,所以我哋都唔會係去維修個水缸, 25 所以咪冇囉。 26 杜淦堃資深大律師:維修水缸呢個工程,你知唔知道係宏泰自己做吖,定係佢判畀有關嘅... 27 梁秉基先生:宏業。 28 杜淦堃資深大律師:佢話宏業自己做吖,定係判畀有關嘅分判商做先,你有冇問過呀? 29 梁秉基先生:我淨係知佢啲人做囉,但係佢邊個自己人,即係自己工人定分判商就唔知。 30 杜淦堃資深大律師:完全唔知喇,即係你唔知邊個做嘅? 31 梁秉基先生:係。 32 杜淦堃資深大律師:總之呀知道唔係你做。第二樣嘢,你睇下第27 段? 33 梁秉基先生:係。 34 杜淦堃資深大律師:基本上你話幫人遞,由第二個人做,佢呢個係合法嘅,因為你話第一 35 “ (English Spoken )” ,係咪?呢個係合理嘅做法。第二“ (English 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第九天

87 本謄本由Epiq 編製 Spoken)”,係咪呀? 1 梁秉基先生:唔。 2 杜淦堃資深大律師:你頭先個答案,其實你唔知道有關嘅工程係咪真係一個RFSIC 做,定 3 係佢搵第二個人做,同唔同意? 4 梁秉基先生:水缸...(聽不清) 5 杜淦堃資深大律師:你頭先啱啱講咗你唔知佢判畀人做定自己做㗎嘛。你呢度話 6 “(English Spoken)”,喺呢個case 已經唔啱喇,係咪? 7 梁秉基先生:唔。水缸唔係我哋... 8 杜淦堃資深大律師:我知唔係你做。 9 梁秉基先生:1、2 級牌做㗎嘛。 10 杜淦堃資深大律師:係嘞,我知唔知係你做,我講埋最後一次。 11 梁秉基先生:係,係嘞。 12 杜淦堃資深大律師:你唔使再講唔係你做,因為大家都知。 13 梁秉基先生:係。 14 杜淦堃資深大律師:我而家呢個情況我睇番你呢段,你話“(English Spoken)”,係 15 咪? 16 梁秉基先生:係。 17 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係你嘅認知係呢個做法穩妥,因為係另外一個由持牌嘅註冊承辦商 18 做。但係我同你講嘅就係,你啱啱話咗畀我哋知,你唔知道係咪宏業自己做㗎嘛, 19 可能佢判畀人做呢,係咪呀? 20 梁秉基先生:佢嘅工人囉,即係嗰啲人做囉。 21 杜淦堃資深大律師:「嗰啲人」嘅意思係咩嘢? 22 梁秉基先生:即係等如我做,我都會請啲工人去做,唔係我自己去做,係。 23 杜淦堃資深大律師:梗係喇,嗰間公司自己唔識修理㗎嘛,佢用人類做㗎嘛,係咪呀? 24 梁秉基先生:係,係,係。 25 杜淦堃資深大律師:好嘞,你啱啱咪同意咗囉,你係唔知道邊間公司做㗎嘛,係咪?只係知 26 道宏業負責,佢有冇判畀人你唔知,係定唔係? 27 梁秉基先生:係。 28 杜淦堃資深大律師:我唔係想對你苛刻,但係如果你聽問題,答問題我哋會快啲。我唔想你 29 聽日要返嚟,好唔好呀? 30 梁秉基先生:好,好,好,好,唔好意思。 31 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔好咁講。我哋繼續去睇,你繼續咁講,你話第三就話“(English 32 Spoken )” ,你話基本上就係你話其實冇安全風險嘅,因為你哋淨係做 33 (English Spoken)啫嘛,係咪咁?係咪? 34 梁秉基先生:嗄。 35 杜淦堃資深大律師:跟住你第四就講話呢個做法,呢個(English Spoken),呢個唔係 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第九天

88 本謄本由Epiq 編製 愛嚟繞過消防處嘅規定嘅,呢啲就係你嘅解釋,係咪? 1 梁秉基先生:唔。 2 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔。我想問下你,你哋自己咁做,據你嘅理解,你呢個幫人遞嘢,第二 3 間公司畀資料你哋,佢話乜你哋就做乜嘅做法,你嘅意思係咪喺行內都係好普遍 4 呀?定係淨係你哋咁做㗎咋? 5 梁秉基先生:我諗消防設... 6 杜淦堃資深大律師:你唔好諗,你知定唔知? 7 梁秉基先生:消防設施我哋會做,但係淨係講水缸...(聽不清)水缸呢個...(聽不清) 8 水缸。 9 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係你係咪話整水缸呢樣嘢搵第二個承辦商去入SDN,呢個做法係普 10 遍? 11 梁秉基先生:係。 12 陸啟康法官:你憑咩嘢咁講?你覺得係普遍,點解你會覺得呢個係普遍? 13 梁秉基先生:建築承辦商佢未必一定有嗰個牌,所以佢有啲人會搵佢哋去--要幫手入囉,因 14 為建築係冇消防牌可以停系統。 15 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔,咁講,整水缸聽你咁講... 16 梁秉基先生:係。 17 杜淦堃資深大律師:...都係有專門嘅分判商去做嘅,係咪?做建築、做石屎工。 18 梁秉基先生:係,防水。 19 杜淦堃資深大律師:嗰啲防水工去做嘅,係咪? 20 梁秉基先生:係,係。 21 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁做呢啲工程嘅公司未必一定有--係一個註冊嘅RFSIC 嚟㗎喎,係 22 咪? 23 梁秉基先生:唔,係。 24 杜淦堃資深大律師:係囉。所以你呢個case,你只係知道--你嘅認知,你話宏業係一個 25 RFSIC,係咪? 26 梁秉基先生:唔。 27 杜淦堃資深大律師:你知道佢搵人做咗,但係你從來冇問過邊個做㗎?佢有冇牌㗎,同唔同 28 意呀? 29 梁秉基先生:同意。 30 杜淦堃資深大律師:總之你嘅講法就係因為你覺得係宏業叫人做嘅,宏業有牌,所以你就唔 31 理嘞,係咪咁呀? 32 梁秉基先生:唔,係喇,係喇,唔。 33 杜淦堃資深大律師:或者另外一個講法喇,其實如果佢話畀你知邊個做,其實你上網check 34 一check,你就知道嗰個人係咪一個註冊嘅承辦商喇,消防處有網頁列出嚟㗎嘛, 35 係咪? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第九天

89 本謄本由Epiq 編製 梁秉基先生:但係我諗冇註冊承辦商係會自己做維修水缸。 1 杜淦堃資深大律師:咪係囉。 2 梁秉基先生:所以咪就係個帶出嚟係咪... 3 杜淦堃資深大律師:係囉,冇註冊承辦商自己維修水缸㗎嘛,所以你知道維修水缸嗰個一定 4 唔係個註冊承辦商,係咪?只係你嘅認知裏面有個註冊承辦商可能搵咗另外一間公 5 司去做,係咪呀? 6 梁秉基先生:唔。 7 杜淦堃資深大律師:所以你就覺得唔使理呢個情況之下,係咪? 8 梁秉基先生:唔。 9 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想同你探討你另外一個講法,你第二份口供,同一份口供詞,第36 10 段,你話你識咗Gordon 宏業何先生好耐㗎嘞,2017 年就識㗎嘞,係咪? 11 梁秉基先生:係。 12 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔。你一直都相信宏業係註冊嘅消防裝置承辦商,係咪? 13 梁秉基先生:係喇,啲interview 嗰啲。 14 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,你見到第39 段,你又深色咗字,又下低間咗,話“(English 15 Spoken)”。呢個係你確認嘅認知,你想強高調呢樣嘢,係咪? 16 梁秉基先生:係,佢係承辦商,係呀。 17 杜淦堃資深大律師:而你個講法就係因為你同佢一齊參加過一啲投標嘅面試,tender 18 interview,所以你就喺面試度聽到佢咁同人哋講,係咪? 19 梁秉基先生:唔,係。 20 杜淦堃資深大律師:你自己有冇check 過佢哋係咪真係一個註冊... 21 梁秉基先生:上網check 過,有。 22 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔,幾時check 過呀? 23 梁秉基先生:幾年前,二--三--幾年前,一年,...(聽不清) 24 杜淦堃資深大律師:你做呢份工--佢搵你做呢個工程嘅時候,你有冇問過,「喂,你係唔係 25 註冊承辦商?或者你仲係唔係呀?」 26 梁秉基先生:係,我都有check 過嘅,有。 27 杜淦堃資深大律師:你有check 過? 28 梁秉基先生:有,有嘅。 29 杜淦堃資深大律師:吓? 30 梁秉基先生:有--佢係註冊承辦商嚟嘅。 31 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係你做呢份--接宏業呢個job 嘅時候,你有去check 過佢仲係一個 32 註冊承辦商,你意思係咪咁? 33 梁秉基先生:係,消防註冊承辦商,係。 34 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔。咁點解你話畀我知--你可唔可以話畀我知,事實上佢唔係㗎嘛,大 35 家都知道宏業本身。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第九天

90 本謄本由Epiq 編製 梁秉基先生:唔係,宏業有間建築及消防。 1 杜淦堃資深大律師:佢有另外一間公司係吖嘛。 2 梁秉基先生:都係佢--因為佢有tender... 3 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁嗰間同一樣名嘅公司,係一個消防註冊承辦商,呢個同個大判,我哋 4 所講個宏業(English Spoken)究竟咩嘢關係,你有冇研究過呀? 5 梁秉基先生:我知佢老闆嗰個係嗰個合資格人士囉,即係係簽署嗰個,即係佢唯一... 6 杜淦堃資深大律師:邊個老闆? 7 梁秉基先生:侯生。 8 杜淦堃資深大律師:侯生,即係你話因為你知道侯生有另外一間公司係一個消防裝置嘅註冊 9 承辦商,所以你就覺得佢okay,係咪? 10 梁秉基先生:即係知佢係承辦商。 11 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁你有冇諗過,如果係咁嘅話,佢叫嗰間註冊承辦商做咪得囉,做乜要 12 搵你啫? 13 梁秉基先生:佢咪就係冇人做文件,佢唔夠人做文件嘢。 14 杜淦堃資深大律師:佢係咪咁同你講呀? 15 梁秉基先生:佢其實以前--因為要續期要好多時--要跟足嗰個時間,所以變咗佢冇人手去做 16 啫? 17 杜淦堃資深大律師:佢接咗個$3 億嘅維修工程,你同我哋講,你嘅理解就係佢冇人手每十四 18 日入份form 畀消防處,你嘅理解係咪咁呀? 19 梁秉基先生:但係佢係咁同我講吖嘛,佢哋冇人做吖嘛。 20 杜淦堃資深大律師:定係你嘅態度就係咁,有人叫你哋做,有個job 你咪接囉,唔好問咁多 21 喇,其實係咪咁呀? 22 梁秉基先生:唔係。 23 杜淦堃資深大律師:嗯? 24 梁秉基先生:唔係。 25 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係你係真心相信宏業嗰面係冇能力,雖然佢係一個註冊嘅消防工程承 26 辦商,但係佢冇能力去處理入SDN 呢一樣嘢,所以就呢個job 畀咗你哋做嘞,係 27 咪咁? 28 梁秉基先生:嗄。 29 陸啟康法官:我想問就算宏業係註冊嘅承辦商,佢出咗事,你哋應該要負責,你同唔同意? 30 梁秉基先生:出咗事。 31 陸啟康法官:因為今次你知道咩嘢出咗事?入咗去又閂咗掣,係咪? 32 梁秉基先生:唔,唔。 33 陸啟康法官:其實閂咗個總掣,即係佢做錯事,你入SDN,咁你應該要負責嘅喎,同唔同 34 意? 35 梁秉基先生:係。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第九天

91 本謄本由Epiq 編製 杜淦堃資深大律師:你睇第--你證人供詞第28 段,第二份,你就話你覺得呢個齋幫第二個 1 承辦商遞文件呢個做法,你覺得係--消防處係接受呢個做法㗎喎,因為你就話喺消 2 防處個網頁有個圖,有個table,有個圖表就畀咗啲資料你哋,就係唔同嘅系統要 3 啲咩嘢牌去做,係咪呀? 4 梁秉基先生:唔。 5 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢個你接個job 之前知唔知道有呢個表㗎,定係你最近先check 番 6 㗎? 7 梁秉基先生:個表不嬲都有嘅。 8 杜淦堃資深大律師:不嬲都有嘅。 9 梁秉基先生:係,不嬲都有。 10 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋睇睇個表,R3-1015,睇番咗上角,我哋首先睇下呢個表係喺消防 11 處個網站邊度出現先喇,你見到個題目「申請註冊成為消防裝置承辦商」,跟住話 12 畀你知消防承辦商就分咗三級,係咪? 13 梁秉基先生:唔。 14 杜淦堃資深大律師:1、2、3 喇,你哋係第1 同第2 喇,係咪? 15 梁秉基先生:係。 16 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔。跟住你嘅意思係咪如果我睇最後嗰項,同一頁,最低一項,供水 17 缸,係咪呀?呢度,上高,呢度,係咪呀? 18 梁秉基先生:係,供水缸。 19 杜淦堃資深大律師:跟住我哋見到右邊1、2、3 級都冇剔嘅,係咪? 20 梁秉基先生:係。 21 杜淦堃資深大律師:所以你睇番上啲,如果睇番呢個table 嘅頭嗰度,佢就話「根據『最 22 低限度之消防裝置及設備守則』所載各類處所或須安裝的消防系統/裝置/設備列出 23 合適的消防裝置承辦商以供參考」。所以佢基於佢呢個講法呢,你就話「欸,所以 24 我哋呢個幫人遞表嘅做法呢,其實消防處都係允許㗎嘞」,係咪呀? 25 梁秉基先生:唔係呢個意思,即係話做嗰個唔係1、2 級牌囉。 26 杜淦堃資深大律師:我唔明。 27 梁秉基先生:因為佢1、2--佢畀1 級牌可以做... 28 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔係,咁呢度就冇話你1、2 級牌,你唔可以做有關嘅工程嘅,佢唔係 29 咁嘅意思吖嘛,你同意喇,係咪? 30 梁秉基先生:佢係有1、2 級牌先做得吖嘛,係呀。 31 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔,但係你去到睇供水缸嗰度... 32 梁秉基先生:水缸就冇囉。 33 杜淦堃資深大律師:係囉,所以冇嘞,你就話所以佢冇1、2、3 級牌其實都可以做供水缸嘅 34 工程啫,係咪? 35 梁秉基先生:唔。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第九天

92 本謄本由Epiq 編製 杜淦堃資深大律師:第一件事,可以做一件事吖。 1 梁秉基先生:唔。 2 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係唔代表冇一個有持牌嘅註冊承辦商需要負責有關安全嘅問題㗎,我 3 相信你同意,係咪? 4 梁秉基先生:唔,係。 5 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔,而如果有人需要負責安全嘅問題,咁應該就係負責嗰個人遞表喇, 6 呢個係常識嚟嘅,你同唔同意? 7 梁秉基先生:唔,係。 8 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔。你又唔係做呢個工程,你冇睇過,你就咁望住呢個表,點解你覺得 9 你話... 10 梁秉基先生:係呀。 11 杜淦堃資深大律師:...因為咁我就覺得消防係允許我哋呢個做法? 12 梁秉基先生:佢冇講明係邊個,但係我哋係停--即係幫佢停個系統。 13 杜淦堃資深大律師:其實個水缸其實係消防系統嘅一部分嚟㗎嘛,係咪? 14 梁秉基先生:係,...(聽不清) 15 杜淦堃資深大律師:而停呢個系統維修,根據你所講,就要停呢個系統喇,係咪? 16 梁秉基先生:係。 17 杜淦堃資深大律師:停呢個系統就要個註冊承辦商去停喇,係咪? 18 梁秉基先生:唔,係。 19 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁停又唔係你、維修又唔係你,你覺得淨係入表係你,呢個係okay 20 嘅,係咪呀? 21 梁秉基先生:嗄,係。 22 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔。好嘞,你喺第二份證人供證都講到,我哋頭先都知喇,因為宏業有 23 第二間公司,同一個老闆嘅,佢係一個註冊嘅承辦商,所以你覺得因為咁呢,你接 24 呢個job 就okay 嘞,係咪呀? 25 梁秉基先生:係。 26 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢個係你當時嘅諗法定係出咗事之後嘅諗法? 27 梁秉基先生:一路都知佢係註冊承辦商。 28 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係當時嘅諗法,係咪? 29 梁秉基先生:係,係。 30 杜淦堃資深大律師:雖然你冇問過宏業「喂,其實你有另外一間註冊承辦商個喎,你哋去搞 31 咪得囉」,你冇咁問過佢,係咪? 32 梁秉基先生:我冇問過,因為佢都係之前都係講緊冇人手搞。 33 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁你接個job 嗰日,你話你上網睇過,你覺得因為佢另外嗰間公司仲有 34 牌,所以你覺得okay,係咪? 35 梁秉基先生:佢冇人手搞啫,所以搵我哋搞。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第九天

93 本謄本由Epiq 編製 杜淦堃資深大律師:我點解咁問你?你呢個講法話「喂,因為佢有第二間註冊承辦商,所以 1 我覺得okay」,呢個我哋上個禮拜先知個咋喎,係咪?你上個禮拜先第一次講個 2 咋喎,係咪? 3 梁秉基先生:係,呢份嘢。 4 杜淦堃資深大律師:係囉,你唔入呢份嘢,我哋唔知㗎嘛,係咪? 5 梁秉基先生:唔,唔。 6 杜淦堃資深大律師:因為你第一份證人供詞個22 段,我以為你係咁講嘅,1513 頁。你話 7 “(English Spoken)”,呢一段係你寫㗎嘛,係咪? 8 梁秉基先生:係。 9 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係你話當時佢搵你,你係相信宏業係請咗另外一間註冊承辦商去做, 10 所以你就假設佢搵另外一間註冊承辦商去處理有關嘅問題,係咪? 11 梁秉基先生:唔。 12 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係換句話講,你係冇--嗰陣--我哋第一次問你嗰陣,你唔係話「因為 13 佢有另外一間公司有牌㗎嘛,所以我覺得okay 囉」,當時你唔係咁講個喎,你只 14 係假設佢去搵另外啲人去做咋喎,係咪?咁如果你第二份,上個禮拜先第一次講嗰 15 個講法係真嘅,我哋第一次問你嗰陣,點解你唔係咁講?你見唔見到個矛盾?咁我 16 而家畀個機會你去解,點解有個咁嘅矛盾,你解唔解到? 17 梁秉基先生:因為當其時真係唔知佢哋搵... 18 杜淦堃資深大律師:因為你直頭第22 段你講得好坦白,喺1513 頁,其實我可以同你講, 19 我哋睇到嗰陣我哋都驚訝,因為你咁講話“(English Spoken)”,你話你根 20 本冇諗過點解佢要有一個承辦商去處理,跟住要搵另外一個,呢個係咪真㗎? 21 梁秉基先生:係。 22 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔緊要,我不如時間關係,我想你幫幫我第二樣嘢。 23 梁秉基先生:係。 24 杜淦堃資深大律師:第二份證人供詞83 段。 25 梁秉基先生:係。 26 杜淦堃資深大律師:1889 ,你講到--82 段嗰度講到消防搵你,你話“ (English 27 Spoken)”,消防打畀你,直頭開名搵你,係咪? 28 梁秉基先生:係。 29 杜淦堃資深大律師:因為啲文件你簽,係咪? 30 梁秉基先生:係。 31 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁你話“(English Spoken)”,即係你講得好清楚,佢真係有搵 32 過你,你想強調,係咪? 33 梁秉基先生:係。 34 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁我想問下你,人哋打嚟追你,如果你嘅理解係「我齋遞文件嘅啫,有 35 第二個(English Spoken)做嘅」,咁你有冇同消防講「阿Sir,唔關我事, 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第九天

94 本謄本由Epiq 編製 我齋入form㗎咋,有第二個(English Spoken)做嘅」,你有冇咁同佢講? 1 梁秉基先生:冇。 2 杜淦堃資深大律師:點解你唔咁同佢講?係咪因為你知道個責任根本係你嗰度? 3 梁秉基先生:因為我入吖嘛份form。 4 杜淦堃資深大律師:係囉,所以個責任喺你嗰度囉。 5 梁秉基先生:唔。 6 杜淦堃資深大律師:講得俗少少,消防要搵人去處理呢件事,要搵人認呢件事嘅問題,都係 7 搵你,係咪? 8 梁秉基先生:唔。 9 杜淦堃資深大律師:第二個你所謂嘅註冊消防承辦商喺成件事上高,基本上係隱形嘅,係 10 咪? 11 梁秉基先生:唔。 12 杜淦堃資深大律師:消防處冇理由會理會,或者冇理由會去允許呢樣嘢,同唔同意? 13 梁秉基先生:唔。 14 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想最後同你探討一個問題。 15 梁秉基先生:唔。 16 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋而家知道任何消防裝置嘅關閉一定要有個註冊承辦商去做嘅,你第 17 一份證人陳述書第36 段,你講得好清楚,你話有個法律嘅要求,就係如果要關閉 18 呢啲系統,一定要有一個你話(English Spoken )註冊承辦商,你仲話 19 “(English Spoken)”即係基本上“(English Spoken)”。 20 梁秉基先生:唔。 21 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係一係你哋去做,一係你哋監督嘅人去做,係咪? 22 梁秉基先生:唔,唔。 23 杜淦堃資深大律師:你知道呢個係--我唔使畀你去睇,我相信,你知道呢個係消防裝置及裝 24 備規例(《消防(裝置及設備)規例》?)嘅第7 條,即係你知道有個法定要求, 25 係咪? 26 梁秉基先生:係。 27 杜淦堃資深大律師:好。我相信而家大家都好清楚,宏福苑嗰啲裝置唔係你哋去閂㗎嘛? 28 梁秉基先生:唔係。 29 杜淦堃資深大律師:嗰個刀掣? 30 梁秉基先生:唔係。 31 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁大火之前,你哋有冇問過宏業「喂,個法定要求係註冊承辦商去閂, 32 如果你要關閉個系統,我搵個人落去閂,呢個係個法定要求」,你有冇咁同佢講 33 過? 34 梁秉基先生:佢哋開頭就已經同我講話佢哋會有人去處理,有人去跟。 35 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁佢話有人去處理,你有冇問佢「喂,法例話要註冊嘅承辦商去處理, 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第九天

95 本謄本由Epiq 編製 邊個處理?」你有冇咁問過佢? 1 梁秉基先生:冇問,冇問。 2 杜淦堃資深大律師:因為你根本上唔理邊個去處理,係咪? 3 梁秉基先生:冇問,冇問過。 4 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁點解你唔問?咁我想問下你,你有冇問過佢「你去關閉個系統,你去 5 關閉邊個系統?你熄邊個掣?」 6 梁秉基先生:之前佢... 7 杜淦堃資深大律師:你有冇問過佢,有定冇? 8 梁秉基先生:冇問佢。 9 杜淦堃資深大律師:冇問。你第二份證人供詞第54 段,你睇番,對你公平啲,睇番53 段 10 先,你話(English Spoken),你話你25 年4 月你哋就送咗啲滅火筒,係 11 咪? 12 梁秉基先生:唔。 13 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁你話張生就話畀你知就唔使去睇,係咪? 14 梁秉基先生:係。 15 杜淦堃資深大律師:跟住你話「宏福苑管理處話佢哋會自己做」,係咪? 16 梁秉基先生:係。 17 杜淦堃資深大律師:“(English Spoken)”係咩嘢,你意思係? 18 梁秉基先生:佢哋自己安排囉。 19 杜淦堃資深大律師:“(English Spoken)” 20 梁秉基先生:佢哋自己安排。 21 杜淦堃資深大律師:安排做咩嘢? 22 梁秉基先生:咪就係去暫停啲嘢。 23 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,所以你54 段你咁講,睇番落去,你話所以你有個印象,「我同張 24 先生所講,我得到一個印象就係佢或者其他負責嘅人士已經係驗過嗰個消防水缸, 25 確保嗰啲系統就係已經適當咁樣關閉咗,即係嗰個消防喉轆同埋消防栓」。問下 26 你,講番--唔好講你呢個印象先,就邊個真係去熄個系統,我想問清楚你,有冇人 27 同你講過邊個做? 28 梁秉基先生:冇。 29 杜淦堃資深大律師:你第一份證人供詞嘅第37 段就咁講,第1515 頁,你講得好清楚「我 30 自己或者我同事冇親自去參與呢一個關閉」--唔去做喎,你就話張生話咗畀你知, 31 喺工程一開始嘅時候,宏福苑嘅(English Spoken),即係佢哋嘅管理,就會 32 “(English Spoken)”,呢度你就講咗,佢同你講邊個做,仲講埋原因添, 33 點解你兩分鐘之前同我講話冇人話畀你知邊個做? 34 梁秉基先生:佢咪話佢哋自己有人安排囉。 35 杜淦堃資深大律師:自己有人安排就唔代表係管理公--佢話咗畀你知管理公司做個喎,兩樣 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第九天

96 本謄本由Epiq 編製 嘢嚟個喎,邊樣先係真? 1 梁秉基先生:咁一定係--即係現場係佢哋話管理公司安排㗎嘛。 2 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係佢同你講管理公司安排? 3 梁秉基先生:係。 4 杜淦堃資深大律師:你而家嘅講法係即係佢有同你講嘅? 5 梁秉基先生:咪就係話有人去跟進咁,我諗現場就係管理公--有人。 6 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔係,我哋將你諗嘅嘢同你聽到嘅嘢分開先,暫且。 7 梁秉基先生:係。 8 杜淦堃資深大律師:佢同你講邊個去做? 9 梁秉基先生:佢就話「有人安排」。 10 杜淦堃資深大律師:講完嘞,係咁多? 11 梁秉基先生:有講過管理都唔畀我哋落去,因為佢哋平時應該就唔畀我哋入--其他人入場 12 嘅,佢有講過嘅,因為我哋都唔係着佢啲衫。 13 杜淦堃資深大律師:好,暫停。你覺唔覺得呢個講法荒謬? 14 梁秉基先生:唔。係,即係... 15 杜淦堃資深大律師:你係呢個宏福苑嘅註冊消防裝置嘅承辦商,如果你話「喂,我要入去閂 16 個系統,呢個係我嘅法律責任」,有人同你講「唔係呀,管理處唔畀我哋入㗎」, 17 呢個應該係一個荒謬嘅講法,你同唔同意?同唔同意? 18 梁秉基先生:唔識答。 19 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔識答。咁你可唔可以再講畀委員會聽,講多次,係咪有人真係同你講 20 話「喂,佢哋會搵人搞㗎嘞,管理處都唔畀我哋入去佢哋嗰度」,係咪真係有人咁 21 講過?係定唔係? 22 梁秉基先生:係真係有講過。 23 杜淦堃資深大律師:如果有人真係咁講過,你作為一個註冊嘅承辦商,講得俗少少,你應該 24 會發火,或者你會覺得呢個講法係無稽,你哋唔入得,邊個入得?啱唔啱? 25 梁秉基先生:咁佢哋話佢哋自己搞。 26 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁佢咁同你講,你有冇話咁做唔合法? 27 梁秉基先生:冇講咁多嘢。 28 杜淦堃資深大律師:好,喺大火之前,其實你係咪--即係如果我理解冇錯,你就一次都冇去 29 過宏福苑,係咪?無論去檢查咩嘢消防裝置或者關閉系統,你同你嘅夥計一次都 30 冇,係咪? 31 梁秉基先生:冇,淨係送過滅火筒,唔。 32 杜淦堃資深大律師:如果你或者你嘅夥計親自去咗泵房一次,去一次啫。 33 梁秉基先生:唔。 34 杜淦堃資深大律師:去睇睇個系統,你同唔同意你哋會知道個刀掣閂咗? 35 梁秉基先生:唔敢肯定。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第九天

97 本謄本由Epiq 編製 杜淦堃資深大律師:喂,嗰間房唔係好大嘅啫,得嗰幾嚿裝置啫,我哋而家大家都睇過好多 1 次,你係咪同我講你行入去會睇唔到個刀掣閂咗? 2 梁秉基先生:唔係,即係唔知個... 3 杜淦堃資深大律師:係咪? 4 梁秉基先生:睇到喇咁。 5 杜淦堃資深大律師:係囉。你一定--行到入去嘅時候一定睇到,係咪? 6 梁秉基先生:唔,唔。 7 杜淦堃資深大律師:你第二份證人供詞嘅第65 段,你咁講,你話「根據我所知」,你話呢 8 個消防水缸嘅維修或者消防有關嘅系統嘅關閉,其實就唔使熄嗰個成個系統嘅,個 9 消防系統總掣,即係我哋呢幾日講個刀掣,係咪? 10 梁秉基先生:唔,唔。 11 杜淦堃資深大律師:你就講得好清楚“(English Spoken)”。 12 梁秉基先生:唔。 13 杜淦堃資深大律師:如果你有--公司有任何同事去過,我相信你哋會開番個刀掣,咁講啱唔 14 啱? 15 梁秉基先生:正常係,如果我知嗰樣嘢,係,應該會做。 16 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係會講如果你哋公司,我唔係講緊你一個人本身,如果你哋公司真係 17 有盡過你哋作為註冊消防裝備承辦商嘅責任,真係走去做檢測,唔係做好多次,只 18 係做一次啫,喺大火之前,大火當日個火警警報系統應該係唔會關閉,同唔同意? 19 梁秉基先生:唔敢肯定呢個。 20 杜淦堃資深大律師:個火警鐘嗰日響會救番好多人,你知嘅? 21 梁秉基先生:知,明。 22 杜淦堃資深大律師:而喺呢件事上高,你哋明顯地有責任,同唔同意? 23 梁秉基先生:現場嘅嘢唔係淨係得我一個。 24 杜淦堃資深大律師:我明白。 25 梁秉基先生:係喇。 26 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係死咁多人大家都唔想,可能責任唔係淨係喺你哋身上,但係對於嗰 27 日個火警警報系統失效,你同意你哋係有責任,係咪? 28 梁秉基先生:唔,唔,係。 29 杜淦堃資深大律師:你公司唔係淨係你一個入咗證人口供,嚴先生都有,點解淨係派你出 30 嚟?佢去咗邊? 31 梁秉基先生:我比較知道多啲吖嘛,所以咪搵--叫我,係我囉。 32 杜淦堃資深大律師:我嘅意思係佢都做咗一份非常詳細嘅證供,我哋都覺得嗰份證供好有 33 用,我淨係想問你點解佢做完份證供唔出嚟,你答唔答到我? 34 梁秉基先生:(搖頭) 35 杜淦堃資深大律師:答唔到。主席,我冇其他問題。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第九天

98 本謄本由Epiq 編製 陸啟康法官:其他嘅涉事方。 1 許偉強資深大律師:係,唔該。 2 梁生,因為剛才杜大律師佢覆蓋嘅問題都好全面,我淨係有兩個方面想同你了 3 解清楚少少。睇番你嗰個第二份證人口供,第33 段,呢度你就講番就係話你幾時 4 開始同呢一個宏業有接觸,咁你呢度都講番就話你係喺前僱主,即係呢個 5 (English Spoken),個中文應該係叫威達,係咪?威達消防工程有限公司嘅 6 時候,就同宏業有接觸嘅咁,你話你呢度唔記得咗係幾多年,但係你記得都係一啲 7 大型嘅工程嘅。咁就係咪嗰陣時開始認識Gordon? 8 梁秉基先生:嗰陣時係佢哋接啲消防命令喇做,咁建築做BD,我哋--我以前做嗰間公司係 9 接消防嗰啲。 10 許偉強資深大律師:明白,所以嗰陣時喺威達嘅時候,如果咁講啱唔啱?你呢度講 11 (English Spoken),即係啲大型嘅工程? 12 梁秉基先生:572,即係消防命令嗰啲。 13 許偉強資深大律師:消防命令,係。呢個係咪都係同一啲屋苑有關嘅工程嚟? 14 梁秉基先生:單棟多。 15 許偉強資深大律師:單棟嘅。 16 梁秉基先生:單棟多。 17 許偉強資深大律師:咁你呢度就話“(English Spoken )”所以喺呢一個咁嘅項目入 18 面,大家嘅關係好清晰㗎嘛,即係話宏業就係做有關嗰個樓宇嗰個工程? 19 梁秉基先生:係。 20 許偉強資深大律師:而你就係專門就係搵你去做有關消防嗰邊嘅工程嘅,係咪? 21 梁秉基先生:唔,唔。 22 許偉強資深大律師:好,咁去到第34 段,你就話2017 年就同Gordon 繼續有接洽,亦都 23 係話“(English Spoken)”,跟住就話叫你畀個(English Spoken), 24 係咪? 25 梁秉基先生:唔。 26 許偉強資深大律師:呢一次 Gordon 搵你,大家嘅關係係咪都好清晰?你都知道 27 (English Spoken )即係宏業嗰邊佢亦都係做緊大廈本身嘅工程,而係搵你 28 (English Spoken)你哋就係專門去做有關消防嗰個工程嘅? 29 梁秉基先生:報價囉,係,報價,係。 30 許偉強資深大律師:報價,報價,係咪?唔,喺嗰度唔會有任何誤解就係話,宏業其實都係 31 做緊消防工程,唔會有呢個誤解㗎嘛,同意嘛? 32 梁秉基先生:唔會。 33 許偉強資深大律師:係咪?好,跟住你去到第36 段同埋39 段,你呢度係咁講,我想了解清 34 楚啲就係話,你話自2017 年開始,你就再有機會同Gordon 見過幾次,咁亦都 35 Gordon 都邀請你去一啲剛才杜大律師都有提過,即係一啲招標嘅一啲(English 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第九天

99 本謄本由Epiq 編製 Spoken)咁,咁就去同啲客戶一齊嘅,嗰啲(English Spoken),係咪?即 1 係嗰啲潛在客戶都一齊嘅? 2 梁秉基先生:唔,唔。 3 許偉強資深大律師:呢度你係咁講嘅,你話-- 你講你嘅角色就話“ (English 4 Spoken)”,咁即係大家去到,Gordon 去到,就會介紹你係作為一個消防裝置 5 承辦商所要做嘅工作,係咪?同啲客戶解釋。 6 梁秉基先生:係囉,因為佢--嗰啲通常命令係有屋宇同--消防咪--我咪話幫手做消防。 7 許偉強資深大律師:明白,即係呢度你話“(English Spoken)”,呢個係講緊你哋作 8 為消防裝置承辦商所會做嘅工作,係咪?佢會咁介紹你? 9 梁秉基先生:係。 10 許偉強資深大律師:好,咁呢度39 就有啲有趣嘅,喺呢度你就係話當(English 11 Spoken)嘅時候,你就話第二句「(English Spoken )宏業係一個消防裝置 12 承辦商」,Gordon 喺呢度又話自己係消防裝置承辦商,你又喺呢度又介紹你係消 13 防裝置承辦商,啲客戶嚟講會諗,咁你嚟做咩嘢㗎? 14 梁秉基先生:如果(English Spoken)即係介紹佢自己係消防裝置承辦商,因為佢係好 15 似中間,即係唔知幾多年攞到,唔知一幾年先攞到,19?唔記得咗。即係佢嗰陣時 16 淨係我會係幫手做消防,佢就唔係介紹用我公司去講。 17 許偉強資深大律師:係,我明白。即係當時呢度你就係話Gordon 又話自己係消防承辦商, 18 又會話你係消防承辦商... 19 梁秉基先生:我係幫手做消防,跟進,跟消防嗰個。 20 許偉強資深大律師:佢有冇話畀客戶聽,其實你嘅跟進其實就淨係一啲文書嘅工作,淨係遞 21 交文件,會唔會咁講? 22 梁秉基先生:唔會,佢淨係話跟進消防。 23 許偉強資深大律師:明白。你呢度睇下,我想問下你,就係你呢一度就喺第40 段,第40 段 24 嗰度你有講到喺準備呢一份口供嘅時候,就有查過呢個名單,咁就發現其實有兩 25 間,一間叫做宏業建築工程有限公司,就係我哋所知道嘅宏業建築工程。另外一間 26 就叫做宏業建築及消防工程有限公司,即係一個就係(English Spoken),一 27 個就係(English Spoken),咁就唔同嘅,兩間公司嚟㗎嘛,咁呢個係唔係你 28 都係一個好簡單嘅查冊都會睇到? 29 梁秉基先生:係。 30 許偉強資深大律師:睇番其實第23 段,第23 段嗰度就話,你呢度係咁講--或者睇22 段 31 先,22 段你就話「我強調我哋只係提供呢個服務畀註冊承辦商」,呢一種形式咁嘅 32 (English Spoken),即係剛才杜大律師話嘅一個即係好似橡皮圖章咁樣嘅一 33 個(English Spoken )。「(English Spoken ),所以(English 34 Spoken )或者(English Spoken )」。23 就係咁嘅,佢話(English 35 Spoken),如果一間公司搵你去作呢啲咁嘅SDN(English Spoken),你就 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第九天

100 本謄本由Epiq 編製 會(English Spoken),你呢度嘅講法即係話一般嚟講,你哋作為消防裝置承 1 辦商去做我哋所講(English Spoken )(到場檢視),呢啲係好重要,係咪 2 呀? 3 梁秉基先生:唔。 4 許偉強資深大律師:除非你覺得搵你嗰個自己都係消防承辦商,先至唔會做呢啲咁嘅檢視巡 5 查,同意嘛? 6 梁秉基先生:係。 7 許偉強資深大律師:所以呢啲係例外嘅情況,非常例外嘅情況,就住呢啲例外嘅情況,所以 8 你覺唔覺得如果喺咁,當你同意以一個剛才杜大律師所講嘅一個橡皮圖章嘅形式去 9 做嘅時候,你係唔係更加緊要嘅,就係你要去查一查搵你嗰個公司係唔係確實係一 10 間消防裝置承辦商,你同意嘛? 11 梁秉基先生:同意。 12 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁剛才你都答咗杜大律師嘅問題,就係就住你呢一次在宏福苑被委任為 13 呢一個大維修消防裝置承辦商嘅時候,你冇特別去查搵你嗰間宏業究竟佢係唔係消 14 防裝置承辦商,同意嘛? 15 梁秉基先生:我知佢係消防承辦商。 16 許偉強資深大律師:你以為佢係? 17 梁秉基先生:唔係,知嘅。 18 許偉強資深大律師:你知有一間係,但你唔知搵你呢一間宏業其實係唔係? 19 梁秉基先生:佢係同一個老細嚟㗎嘛。 20 許偉強資深大律師:同一個老細。但係我哋而家知道係兩間唔同公司嚟㗎嘛? 21 梁秉基先生:個名唔同。 22 許偉強資深大律師:係一個好簡單嘅查冊,就已經查到係兩間唔同嘅公司,同意嘛? 23 梁秉基先生:但係我個意思係嗰陣時(English Spoken),佢都話佢自己係消防承辦商 24 嘅。 25 許偉強資深大律師:好,我聽到你個講法。最後一個問題我想問你嘅,就係就住你第二份證 26 人口供嘅第63 段,我哋睇一睇。呢度你有講到關於個(English Spoken), 27 你呢度就話你自己就冇--我哋都知你冇去現場去睇或者關閉任何系統嘅,你呢度就 28 你話“(English Spoken)."呢度你話根據張生同你講,係大廈嘅管理嗰邊就 29 會安排啲人員去做關閉呢個動作,我想問下你記唔記得張生幾時同你講呢樣嘢? 30 梁秉基先生:一開頭已經講話佢哋即係有人會同佢哋去一齊閂掣,管理嗰邊。 31 許偉強資深大律師:一開頭? 32 梁秉基先生:一開頭咁講,係。 33 許偉強資深大律師:即係可能係未開始做嗰個維修工程? 34 梁秉基先生:係,所以唔使我哋落去。 35 許偉強資深大律師:明白。之後冇同你提及呢件事,係咪? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第九天

101 本謄本由Epiq 編製 梁秉基先生:冇。 1 許偉強資深大律師:佢亦都冇同你講話佢會就住邊一啲消防裝置去關閉,冇特別同你講? 2 梁秉基先生:冇。 3 許偉強資深大律師:你亦都冇問,係咪呀? 4 梁秉基先生:冇問。 5 許偉強資深大律師:好,佢亦都冇特別同你講話呢啲裝置佢預計會關閉多久? 6 梁秉基先生:冇講話幾耐。 7 杜淦堃資深大律師:你亦都冇問佢? 8 梁秉基先生:冇,就佢搞掂咪叫我哋停。 9 許偉強資深大律師:佢呢度話呢個大廈管理會安排一啲人員去做,佢有冇講話係大廈邊啲 10 人? 11 梁秉基先生:冇講。 12 許偉強資深大律師:你亦都冇問? 13 梁秉基先生:冇問。 14 許偉強資深大律師:好,我想問下,就係剛才杜大律師都問過你,就係就住你第一份證人口 15 供,你都清楚講出根據法例就好肯定就係需要一個註冊消防裝置承辦商先至可以處 16 理任何消防裝置嘅,同意嘛? 17 梁秉基先生:唔。 18 許偉強資深大律師:當呢一個張生同你講話管理嗰邊會搵一啲人嚟到去做呢個關閉嘅動作, 19 咁你會唔會即刻去諗佢哋係唔係註冊嘅人員嚟㗎,或者係有任何對呢方面嘅知識, 20 有冇問過佢? 21 梁秉基先生:冇問,佢應該會搵適當嘅人。 22 許偉強資深大律師:明白。如果喺正常情況嚟講,如果你唔係做一個流水作業式或者係我哋 23 所講係一個橡皮圖章式,淨係交文件嘅呢一個消防裝置承辦商嘅情況,如果你去到 24 現場做巡查,做呢一個動作,我哋講緊呢個大廈翻新工程,如果做一個動作係需要 25 關閉呢一啲咁嘅消防裝置,以你嚟講應該都係你哋作為消防承辦商係要做嘅動作嚟 26 嘅,係咪呀? 27 梁秉基先生:唔,嗄。 28 許偉強資深大律師:檢視當時佢關閉得啱唔啱都係應該由你哋去作一個監督嘅,同意嘛? 29 梁秉基先生:因為佢哋話唔使。 30 許偉強資深大律師:我知,但係一般嚟講,如果你係要去到現場巡查,嗰個監督係唔係正確 31 地、妥善地關閉咗嗰個消防系統,都應該你哋做監督,同意嘛? 32 梁秉基先生:唔,嗄。 33 許偉強資深大律師:我冇其他問題。 34 陸啟康法官:孫大律師。 35 孫靖乾資深大律師:主席,兩位委員,唔該晒。梁先生,我亦都有兩方面嘅間題想同你跟 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第九天

102 本謄本由Epiq 編製 進,剛才如果杜資深大律師同埋許資深大律師問咗嘅問題我就唔重複。第一樣嘢, 1 我想你睇一睇,作為一個例子,我哋去一去B2/1700 頁,呢一個就係中華發展亦 2 都由你有簽名出嘅SDN,即係一個消防裝置關閉通知書,你記得你頭先就有講過, 3 就係話你喺呢一個--6 月16 號發出嘅一個SDN,你就話其實唔會需要係一定夾附 4 埋嗰個FS251,你亦都有講過,就係話如果消防處問嘅時候,你先至畀。首先我想 5 同你睇一睇日期先嘅,你記得頭先你都有同杜資深大律師就係回答佢嘅問題嘅時 6 候,承認其實根據你而家嗰個講法,就係嗰個FS251 雖然係喺6 月份嘅時候準備 7 咗,但係到到後期,即係譬如10 月份先至係將佢就係傳真畀呢個消防處,呢個係 8 你嘅證據,同唔同意? 9 梁秉基先生:唔。 10 孫靖乾資深大律師:即係同意嘅? 11 梁秉基先生:係。 12 孫靖乾資深大律師:;我而家想睇一睇第1700 頁上面有三個唔同嘅日期,左手邊,左上 13 方。其實第一個日期,如果我哋係睇一睇即係嗰三個日期裏面最下面嗰個,我哋會 14 見到嗰個係2025 年6 月16 日,係晏晝嘅12 點31 分,見唔見到? 15 梁秉基先生:唔。 16 孫靖乾資深大律師:咁呢度如果我哋見到相對應右手面嚟講,呢度顯示佢係有一頁紙嘅傳 17 真,咁呢個相信就係你哋呢個中華發展當時第一次將嗰個SDN 傳真畀呢個消防處, 18 係咪? 19 梁秉基先生:唔。 20 孫靖乾資深大律師:然後我哋再睇一睇,其實喺中間有一個嘅日子,有部分我哋可能睇得唔 21 清楚,但係我哋都會睇到嗰個應該係2025 年6 月16 號,即係同一日,即係話隔 22 咗大約係兩三個鐘,3 點10 分之後亦都有一頁紙就係傳真番,或者係發放番畀呢 23 個中華發展嘅。咁呢個我相信就係我哋見到同一日,你出咗個SDN 嘅時候,其實消 24 防通訊中心亦都有個蓋印,然之後就將佢傳真番畀呢個中華發展,係咪? 25 梁秉基先生:唔。 26 孫靖乾資深大律師:然後我哋就見到就仲有一個印,係個日期就係2025 年10 月30 號, 27 就係晏書嘅3 點49 分,呢度你就會首次發現,你就見到呢度係喺右手邊就係話 28 page 1 of 2,即係話有兩頁紙裏面嘅其中第1 頁,口相信就係喺10 月30 號 29 嘅時候,你哋就係有傳真畀呢個消防處。如果我哋睇一睇1701 頁,1701 頁右上 30 角我哋見到呢個page 2 of 2,即係話即係嗰兩頁紙裏面嘅第2 頁,我哋見到個 31 時間就係2025 年10 月30 號嘅15 時50 分,即係3 點50 分,即係話比起頭先 32 嗰第1 頁紙就啱啱只係遲咗一分鐘嘅,見唔見到? 33 梁秉基先生:唔。 34 孫靖乾資深大律師:所以如果就咁根據呢個紀錄,我諗你都會見同意其實嗰個FS251 係應 35 該去到10 月30 號嘅下晝3 點鐘,先至係你哋係傳真畀呢個消防處嘅,同唔同 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第九天

103 本謄本由Epiq 編製 意? 1 梁秉基先生:唔。 2 孫靖乾資深大律師:頭先你就有講過,你睇番1700,你見裏面譬如話第一部分,嗰度係有 3 一個地方寫住就話FS251 嘅編號如有,所以你頭先就話唔係一定要有,佢話如果 4 有嘅話,咁就要提供。呢度我就想你去睇一睇,第一,喺同一份表格下面嘅註3, 5 第三個,註3 呢度就話註冊消防裝置承辦商係需要喺完成檢查任何消防裝置或者設 6 備之後嘅十四天內發出一份嘅證明書,呢個證明書其實就係個FS251,係咪? 7 梁秉基先生:係。 8 孫靖乾資深大律師:如果我哋睇番下一頁嗰個FS251 裏面話,聲稱填嘅話你哋做嘅工作就 9 係你有去(English Spoken)個(English Spoken ),即係有檢查過嗰個 10 消防水缸? 11 梁秉基先生:唔。 12 孫靖乾資深大律師:所以如果你呢度亦都話嗰個(English Spoken)(成檢查日期)係 13 2025 年6 月16 號,你同唔同意其實該喺呢個2025 年6 月16 號嘅十四天內, 14 其實就應該係要將呢份FS251,就係要將佢去發出或者將佢係存檔畀消防處呢? 15 梁秉基先生:嗰個底係畀咗嘅,只係fax 去呢個通訊中心係10 月先fax。 16 孫靖乾資深大律師:即係你而家係堅持話其實應該係之前曾經畀過嘅? 17 梁秉基先生:係。 18 孫靖乾資深大律師:咁我哋暫時嘅證據睇唔到。我再問多一樣嘢,就係如果我哋睇一睇相關 19 嘅法律嘅條文,如果我哋去呢個都係同個B2/179 頁,呢個係嗰個《消防(裝置及 20 設備)規例》,如果我哋睇下嗰個第9 條嗰個規例,你會見到9(1)裏面係話「每 21 當一個註冊承辦商喺任何處所內」,包括係幾樣嘢,我哋今次係睇就係檢查,「檢 22 查任何消防裝置同埋設備,係須於完成有關工程十四天內,向作出指示嘅人發出一 23 份證明書,並將嗰個副本係送交嗰個處長。」見唔見到? 24 梁秉基先生:係,見到。 25 孫靖乾資深大律師:換言之,即係話如果你係受到譬如業主立案法團去委託嘅,你就要向嗰 26 個業主立案法團去發出嗰個證明書,同時喺十四天內亦都要將嗰個副本係交畀個消 27 防處處長,係咪? 28 梁秉基先生:係。 29 孫靖乾資深大律師:呢個係法律上有一個咁樣嘅責任,你同意嘅? 30 梁秉基先生:係。 31 孫靖乾資深大律師:如果冇咁樣做就其實係違反法律? 32 梁秉基先生:唔,係。 33 孫靖乾資深大律師:第二樣嘢我想同你探討,就係頭先你亦都講到一個關於嗰個叫做供水缸 34 (English Spoken),特別地就喺你第二份證人供詞你就有去提及到話消防處 35 嘅一個網站,相關嘅文件頭先杜大律師同你睇過,喺R3/1035 頁。R3/1035 頁 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第九天

104 本謄本由Epiq 編製 呢度嗰個你就睇到,就係話嗰個供水缸,咁供水缸頭先杜大律師問過你一啲問題, 1 我就唔重複。但係我亦都想你睇一睇就係除咗供水缸之外,你見唔見到上面仲有一 2 個係關於消防栓同埋喉轆系統? 3 梁秉基先生:係。 4 孫靖乾資深大律師:而呢個消防栓、喉轆系統我哋見到喺右手面係一個剔嘅,如果我哋睇番 5 上少少,其實係有講到明係話即係最少係有個第2 級嘅消防裝置承辦商去處理,見 6 唔見到? 7 梁秉基先生:見到。 8 孫靖乾資深大律師:好,關於呢個消防栓同埋喉轆系統,其實你作為呢個承辦商,你應該清 9 楚知道其實佢係有七個組成嘅部分,包括埋嗰個(English Spoken),即係供 10 水箱都係其中一個部分,係咪? 11 梁秉基先生:唔。 12 孫靖乾資深大律師:同唔同意? 13 梁秉基先生:係。 14 孫靖乾資深大律師:呢度如果我哋淨係睇一份文件,係有關有一個《作業守則》,就係亦都 15 喺B2,我哋去第789 頁,我哋見到呢個《作業守則》係呢個2022 年9 月份,然 16 後我想你--我哋再直接睇下呢個858 頁,858 頁如果我哋去到下面5.14 段,呢 17 度就有講個(English Spoken),就係頭先我講嗰個消防栓同埋消防喉轆嘅系 18 統,你見到呢度其實就有七個組成部分,A 就係嗰個消防栓。如果我哋一路再睇落 19 去,可能去到第862 頁,可能我哋要上番少少,我哋搵番860--請等等。860, 20 860 喺C 嗰度,其實就係(English Spoken)就係嗰七個嘅組成部分嘅其中一 21 個,同唔同意? 22 梁秉基先生:係。 23 孫靖乾資深大律師:好,最後同你睇多一個地方,頭先杜大律師同你睇過嗰䭅通函,嗰個通 24 函我淨係想你再睇多一段,我哋去番B2/1302 頁,呢一個通函1302 頁如果我哋 25 向下睇一睇,我哋睇最屘呢一段,呢度有講過就話,英文就係咁講「而消防承辦商 26 係會需要去睇下有關嘅裝置係唔係需要關閉,係以維修作用,所以係有關承辦商通 27 知消防處。」因為大家就會係相關消防裝置嘅擁有人,即係話係啲業主,佢哋係會 28 獲聘請去檢查有關嘅消防裝置,從而去睇下佢哋係唔係需要去關閉佢哋,係進行一 29 啲嘅可能維修或者係等等嘅工程。所以呢一啲咁樣嘅註冊消防裝置承辦商就會係最 30 適合去通知呢個消防處關於嗰個有關消防裝置關閉嘅情況。所以呢個你亦都係當時 31 你作為註冊承辦商,你知道有咁樣嘅講法,係咪? 32 梁秉基先生:唔。 33 孫靖乾資深大律師:所以你同唔同意如果再加上呢個講法嘅時候,其實好清楚嗰個通函其實 34 個意思都係話如果係要要求相關嘅嗰個註冊承辦商去通知消防局,其實其中一個原 35 因就係因為佢哋會有份去參與去檢查或者實際去進行嗰個維修工作嘅嗰個註冊承辦 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第九天

105 本謄本由Epiq 編製 商,就唔係純粹作為一個橡皮圖章去做呢個咁嘅通知工作,你同唔同意? 1 梁秉基先生:係。 2

3 16 時35 分中華發展工程有限公司董事證人梁秉基先生作供完畢 4

5 孫靖乾資深大律師:好,唔該晒主席,我冇其他問題。 6 陸啟康法官:仲有冇其他涉事方?我諗即係梁生嘅代表律師有冇問題想問? 7 關有禮大律師:主席,我係沒有問題。 8 陸啟康法官:即係冇其他涉事方有問題?Okay,梁生,好多謝你今日嚟畀證供,亦都好多謝 9 你咁坦白幫我哋,你嘅證供對我哋個調查都係非常之重要嘅。咁我哋跟住就會星期 10 五嘅10 點鐘,係咪?咁到時就係消防嘅姜副處長,okay。所以就星期五朝頭早 11 10 點。 12

13 16 時36 分聆訊押後 14 (聆訊將於2026 年4 月10 日10 時00 分繼續) 15

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FD06249 | 2025_港澳台_香港宏福苑大火_Transcript-(Chinese)_20260410.pdf

分类:06_境外及港澳台调查报告 | 年份:2025 | 地域:香港 | 严重程度: | 场所: | 起火原因: | 来源格式:pdf

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十天

本謄本由Epiq 編製

就大埔宏福苑火災成立的獨立委員會

聽證會

高等法院原訟法庭陸啟康法官 陳健波議員 歐陽伯權博士

日期:

第十天 2026 年4 月10 日

杜淦堃資深大律師, 俞匡庭大律師, 李澍桓大律師, 馮天榮大律師, 張天風大律師及李俊軒大律師代表獨立委員會

孫靖乾資深大律師, 陸栩然大律師, 卓元暢大律師及劉逸冲大律師代表政府

林樂夫大律師代表宏泰消防工程有限公司

劉晉安大律師及譚俊傑大律師代表宏福苑居民

何卓衡大律師及楊志聰大律師代表置邦興業有限公司

律政司代表

呂世杰資深大律師及阮文躍大律師代表市區重建局

競爭事務委員會代表

合安管理有限公司代表

關有禮大律師及陳熾龍大律師代表梁秉基

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十天

1 本謄本由Epiq 編製

以下內容乃聆訊數碼錄音謄本 1

2 10 時00 分聆訊恢復 3

4 陸啟康法官:係,杜大律師,我哋今日有一位證人,係咪? 5 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,主席、兩位委員,我哋今日嘅證人係消防處助理處長姜世明先生。 6 陸啟康法官:請姜生上嚟。 7

8 10 時01 分消防處助理處長(牌照及審批)證人姜世明先生開始作供 9

10 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,早晨,姜Sir,麻煩你企一企起身將你面前嘅聲明讀出嚟。 11 姜世明先生:好,本人姜世明聲明,本人所作的證供,盡本人所知、所悉及所信,均屬真 12 實。 13 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,多謝你。早晨,姜先生,你而家係消防處助理處長,你負責嘅係牌 14 照同埋審批嘅工作? 15 姜世明先生:正確。 16 杜淦堃資深大律師:你一共向委員會提交咗五份證人陳述書,我相信你嚟之前你都再有睇 17 過,亦都可以確認裏面內容嘅準確性,係咪? 18 姜世明先生:係。 19 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,我哋知道你係一位資深消防處工作人員,你95 年已經係加入咗消 20 防處,到而家服務咗超過30 年,係咪? 21 姜世明先生:正確。 22 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,我哋今日其實係想利用你嘅經驗協助我哋睇番今次嘅事件,當然, 23 我哋想還原番火警時候嘅情況,亦都想利用你嘅經驗去尋找一啲可以進步或者改善 24 嘅地方。 25 姜世明先生:好。 26 杜淦堃資深大律師:多謝你協助我哋。我哋知道,喺紀錄睇到你係2024 年3 月31 號晉升 27 到而家嘅職位,亦都係負責而家呢個範疇,係咪? 28 姜世明先生:係。 29 杜淦堃資深大律師:為咗讓大家知道你負責嘅範疇,我咁樣講準唔準確?牌照同埋審批總區 30 係負責執行防火規例同埋政策,同埋就防火措施同埋消除火警危險嘅事宜向市民提 31 供協助同埋意見。 32 姜世明先生:正確。 33 杜淦堃資深大律師:你轄下有幾個唔同嘅課,你轄下有一個政策課,主要係負責制訂同埋檢 34

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十天

2 本謄本由Epiq 編製 討防事宜嘅政策程序同埋指引,同埋進行相關課題嘅研究,亦都會處理部門檢控嘅 1 事宜嘅? 2 姜世明先生:正確。 3 杜淦堃資深大律師:另外,仲有一個消防設備嘅監督課,負責檢查現有樓宇嘅防火設施,處 4 理有關樓宇嘅消防裝置同埋投訴,亦都係會監察註冊承辦商嘅專業水準,同埋喺有 5 需要嘅情況之下都會採取一啲執法行動嘅? 6 姜世明先生:正確。 7 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔。此外,你哋嘅消防設施監督課亦都會解答公眾、認可人士、機電工 8 程顧問、消防裝置承辦商同埋其他政府部門就有關消防裝置嘅查詢嘅? 9 姜世明先生:正確。 10 杜淦堃資深大律師:另外,亦都有一個消防工程合規課,佢哋就會係由消防設施組同埋通風 11 系統組所組成。消防設施組就負責檢查同埋批核新建樓宇嘅消防裝置,同埋監督註 12 冊消防承辦商嘅專業水準。 13 姜世明先生:正確。 14 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢個都係正確,係咪? 15 姜世明先生:唔。 16 杜淦堃資深大律師:另外,可唔可以咁講?如果個建築物嘅消防安全受到影響,亦都係你哋 17 負責去考慮點樣去消除呢個火警嘅危險,包括向業主發出消除火警危險嘅通知書, 18 即係我哋英文叫做「(English Spoken)」,呢個都係你哋嘅工作之一? 19 姜世明先生:消防設備方面,係。 20 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,我哋喺證供都睇到,亦都想大家知道,你哋係負責去監管所謂主動 21 式嘅消防設施同埋裝備嘅? 22 姜世明先生:正確。 23 杜淦堃資深大律師:至於一啲被動式嘅消防裝置,例如建築物裏面嗰啲建築結構,呢啲係由 24 由屋宇署監管,係咪? 25 姜世明先生:屋宇署係其中一個監管機關。 26 杜淦堃資深大律師:係嘞,但係嗰個就唔係你哋嘅範疇似乎。 27 姜世明先生:並非。 28 杜淦堃資深大律師:係。雖然係咁樣講,你喺你第一份嘅證人供詞第1 段都講得好清楚,你 29 哋亦都有份制定同埋檢驗新建樓宇、現有樓宇嗰啲改裝工程。 30 姜世明先生:嘅消防設備。 31 杜淦堃資深大律師:係。 32 姜世明先生:係,正確。 33 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白。我哋首先想你幫一幫我哋嘅就係去解釋畀大家聽,因為之前嗰幾 34 日都有啲提及過呢一啲嘅證據。 35 姜世明先生:好。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十天

3 本謄本由Epiq 編製 杜淦堃資深大律師:為咗節省時間,我都想問一問你,之前我哋知道兩位消防裝置嘅承辦商 1 有關嘅證人都嚟到協助我哋,你在唔在場? 2 姜世明先生:昨天我係聽住嘅。 3 杜淦堃資深大律師:前日。 4 姜世明先生:前日,對唔住,前日,我係聽住。 5 杜淦堃資深大律師:之前嘅證供我相信都有睇過? 6 姜世明先生:有睇過啲謄本。 7 杜淦堃資深大律師:多謝你。我哋想你幫一幫我哋去有一個準確嘅了解,就係啲消防裝置其 8 實點樣運作?因為你應該係最清楚呢一樣嘢,喺你嘅三份證人陳述書裏面,我哋見 9 到消防處就提到喺宏福苑調查同埋分析各種問題,有一份調查報告嘅,嗰份報告係 10 喺Bundle B11/第5625 頁,你係--我相信你有份參與去準備呢份報告? 11 姜世明先生:係,冇錯。 12 杜淦堃資深大律師:首先我想你麻煩你就係去簡單解釋一下嗰個消防栓同埋消防喉轆系統喺 13 正常情況之下嗰個運作嘅,好讓大家知道其實係點樣樣。 14 姜世明先生:好。 15 杜淦堃資深大律師:其實你嘅報告,如果我哋睇番5628 頁開始,5627、5628 亦都開始解 16 釋咗有關嘅設施,如果我哋去第5629 嗰度呢,第一件事我想你幫我哋去解釋一下 17 就係其實係嗰個消防水缸同地下嗰個消防水泵之間嗰個運作,我哋想知道嘅係呢個 18 消防栓同埋喉轆系統,其實有幾個多泵?同埋每個泵點運作嘅?我嘗試好簡單咁 19 講,但係因為我係門外漢,所以麻煩你適當嘅時候可以補充。我哋知道嘅係地下有 20 一個消防嘅運轉水缸嘅,FS transfer tank。 21 姜世明先生:係。 22 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁佢就先會從地下嘅供水系統分隔同埋儲存咗2,000 公升嘅水,有需 23 要嘅時候就泵上去天台個消防缸,咁講啱唔啱? 24 姜世明先生:正確。 25 杜淦堃資深大律師:係嘞,消防缸就係我哋呢度講嗰個FS tank,而天台嗰個消防缸呢,嗰 26 個就好大嘅,個容量有18,200 公升。 27 姜世明先生:正確。 28 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢個就--而天台呢個消防缸就會供水畀各層嗰個消防喉嘅。 29 姜世明先生:消防栓同埋喉轆。 30 杜淦堃資深大律師:係。咁至於嗰個消防上水泵呢,其實就係將水從地下泵到上去天台嗰個 31 消防缸? 32 姜世明先生:正確。 33 杜淦堃資深大律師:另外,我哋知道有一個消防加壓泵,佢個用途係咪確保其實全部嗰啲消 34 防系統係有足夠嘅水壓? 35 姜世明先生:正確,但想補充下。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十天

4 本謄本由Epiq 編製 杜淦堃資深大律師:好。 1 姜世明先生:事實上由於個水缸喺天面,咁較低嘅樓層,其實有一個叫做所謂啲水砸落嚟, 2 叫佢做「地心吸力」,咁都有啲水壓,但係較高嘅樓層呢,呢個咁嘅加壓泵就發揮 3 到個加壓嘅功用。 4 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔。所以變相嚟講,如果棟大廈越高,呢個系統就越重要嘞? 5 姜世明先生:正確。 6 杜淦堃資深大律師:根據你哋提供嘅資料,消防裝置承辦商,即係我哋話RFSIC 嗰個英文 7 簡寫,喺年檢嘅時候佢當然要檢查整套嘅系統。 8 姜世明先生:係。 9 杜淦堃資深大律師:如果咁講啱唔啱?其實佢嘅檢查應該係包括整套系統每一個部件,即係 10 我哋提郅嘅上水泵、加壓泵、運轉水缸、消防缸,其實佢哋每一個裝置都要親自去 11 檢驗嘅,係咪? 12 姜世明先生:每一個裝置都要檢驗,正確。 13 杜淦堃資深大律師:當然,我哋之前呢幾日嘅證供提到,啲水缸有冇漏水,當然亦都係一個 14 佢哋要關注嘅範圍,因為你漏水會影響運作,可唔可以咁講? 15 姜世明先生:正確,可以。 16 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想你集中請你幫一幫我哋講嘅消防水泵,我哋知道每一個--宏福苑每 17 一座大廈都有一個消防加壓泵房,另外仲有一個泵房嘅,有兩個嘅。 18 姜世明先生:冇錯。 19 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想講主要嗰個泵房先,想你幫助我哋解一解裏面嗰個情況,如果我哋 20 去Bundle C1-2,去1647 頁,呢個係宏福苑嗰個主要嗰個泵房嚟嘅,係咪?睇 21 相,我知道你未必去過每一個,但係似乎呢啲設施就喺個泵房裏面應該有嘅設施, 22 係咪? 23 姜世明先生:正確,唔嗯。 24 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋見到相片裏面有個黑色嘅位置,中間,嗰個係就係個咪消防上水 25 泵? 26 姜世明先生:頭先有另一張相係有個紅色嗰個泵先至係。 27 杜淦堃資深大律師:哦,紅色個泵先至係。 28 姜世明先生:而家呢個我覺得唔係個頭先你講嘅主泵,呢個就係上水嗰啲。 29 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,我想話呢個係咪消防上水泵? 30 姜世明先生:係。 31 杜淦堃資深大律師:而我哋如果睇番呢張相,黑色嗰個係消防上水泵,後面嗰個就係個運轉 32 水缸,係咪? 33 姜世明先生:係,佢都係咁標示,但係個上水泵都唔係淨係黑色嗰橛,前面仲有少少機件。 34 杜淦堃資深大律師:係嘞,即係成個系統就唔止黑色嗰一個部分。 35 姜世明先生:係呀,冇錯。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十天

5 本謄本由Epiq 編製 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係連接嘅機件都係。如果我哋去睇1651,呢張我哋之前都--較早前 1 證據都提過,呢度有--主要泵房裏面有三款嘅,我哋叫(English Spoken), 2 三個系統,我哋理解嘅就係紅色係消防上水泵嗰個控制板。 3 姜世明先生:係。 4 杜淦堃資深大律師:白色同綠色分別係淡水同埋鹹水控制板,係咪? 5 姜世明先生:係。 6 杜淦堃資深大律師:如果麻煩你去睇1654,呢個應該係個主要嘅泵房消防上水泵嗰個控制 7 板,係咪? 8 姜世明先生:係。 9 杜淦堃資深大律師:如果要閂消防上水泵,應該係撳邊一個掣? 10 姜世明先生:我答你唔到。 11 杜淦堃資深大律師:你答唔到? 12 姜世明先生:我答唔到。 13 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔。但係應該係--照你嘅理解應該係可以就咁閂咗個上水泵掣,係咪? 14 姜世明先生:我對於佢主泵嗰個(English Spoken )我可以答到你,上水泵呢個 15 (English Spoken)我冇仔細睇到係邊個掣。 16 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔,明白。 17 姜世明先生:因為今次比較關注嘅係主泵嗰面嗰個(English Spoken)。 18 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白,明白。如果我哋要將消防上水缸--個消防水缸放水做維修或者檢 19 查嘅話,應該可以喺呢一個(English Spoken)嗰度做到嘅,係咪?即係雖然 20 你冇去睇過邊一個掣打邊一個掣,但係據你嘅認知可唔可以咁講? 21 姜世明先生:要將個缸嘅水放水,你條問題係? 22 杜淦堃資深大律師:係。 23 姜世明先生:我問過啲技術嘅同事,要將個缸嘅放水,佢有個缸邊放水掣,我暫時未聽過佢 24 話喺呢個panel 上面要做咩工夫。 25 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白,如果個缸邊放水掣應該就喺天台嘅,係咪呀?定係喺邊個位置 26 呀? 27 姜世明先生:據我技術嘅同事向我轉達,我都認知係喺天台裏面有個缸邊嘅放水掣。 28 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔。我哋想你幫一幫我睇番1640,呢一個(English Spoken)同呢 29 個掣,我相信你即係有留意同埋研究過。 30 姜世明先生:係。 31 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋見到呢個有兩個箱喇,呢個係個加壓泵房,係咪? 32 姜世明先生:係,冇錯。 33 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋集中睇右邊細嗰個箱,如果我哋1642,你見到而家喺下面有off 34 字嘅? 35 姜世明先生:係,冇錯。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十天

6 本謄本由Epiq 編製 杜淦堃資深大律師:就打直,即係呢個按鈕--呢個掣打直嘅時候就似乎係一個嘅關閉狀態, 1 係咪? 2 姜世明先生:係,冇錯。 3 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢個係個消防系統個總掣,即係總電源掣,係咪? 4 姜世明先生:正確。 5 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔。我哋知道證據似乎顯示就係同時開關消防喉轆同埋警鐘嗰個供電都 6 係呢個箱嘅? 7 姜世明先生:正確。 8 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係呢個掣係我哋之前聆訊講嗰個刀掣,係咪呀? 9 姜世明先生:係,可以咁稱呼佢。 10 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁樣理解啱唔啱呢?如果關掉呢個總掣電掣嘅話呢,消防警報系統、個 11 加壓泵、上水泵全部都會冇電供應嘅? 12 姜世明先生:正確。 13 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁講啱唔啱呀?個RFSIC 佢去查個消防系統嘅時候,佢應該都有責任 14 去確保個系統係運作正常,咁呢個掣一定要係開咗,如果唔係就運作唔到? 15 姜世明先生:正確。 16 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢個淨係閂--我同事提醒咗我,呢個淨係閂加壓泵同埋消防警報系統, 17 上水泵應該唔係呢個掣嘅,咁講準唔準確啲?定係你嘅理解係全部掣都係? 18 姜世明先生:前者。 19 杜淦堃資深大律師:前者。 20 姜世明先生:呢個房就係隔籬有個panel 就係控制火警警報系統,同埋消防栓/喉轆系統 21 嗰個加壓泵。 22 杜淦堃資深大律師:係。上水泵就唔關呢個掣事嘅? 23 姜世明先生:正確。 24 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋而家講番喺1641 左邊嗰個大箱,呢個箱上高有幾個燈號同埋有幾 25 個掣,我相信你熟悉每一個掣,可唔可以幫我哋去解一解其實每一個掣嘅作用,同 26 埋另外可能你見到有啲顯示嘅燈顯示啲乜嘢? 27 姜世明先生:係。 28 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋或者由左至右咁去講,或者你用你覺得最清晰嘅方法解一解畀大家 29 聽。 30 姜世明先生:好,可能稍後我要你放大啲。 31 杜淦堃資深大律師:好。不如而家放大啲畀你睇。 32 姜世明先生:好,好,好。最頂頭呢三個燈號呢,係一個關於三相電嘅一啲電力供應嘅燈 33 號,係嘞。 34 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔嗯。 35 姜世明先生:係嘞。都係代表有供電咁嘅意思。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十天

7 本謄本由Epiq 編製 杜淦堃資深大律師:所以正常情況之下,三個都應該著嘅,係咪? 1 姜世明先生:理應係咁樣嘅。然後低少少,就係有個警鐘停止掣,即係當響起警鐘嘅時候 2 呢,如果佢係按撥咗去另一個位嘅話,佢就會將一個響緊嘅鐘就變成停止嘅。係, 3 呢個係寫住「正常啟動」,都係一個開關嘅按鈕嚟嘅。低少少,下面呢度就有兩個 4 泵掣。 5 杜淦堃資深大律師:我可唔可以問番你,頭先你嗰個正常啟動,嗰個啟動啲乜嘢? 6 姜世明先生:我呢度都睇唔到。 7 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,如果佢就咁講正常啟動,你個理解? 8 姜世明先生:我想睇番佢個字,可唔可以畀我睇睇個字? 9 杜淦堃資深大律師:應該就咁寫「正常啟動」。 10 姜世明先生:係,呢度我初步答唔到。 11 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白。 12 姜世明先生:我可以答番你關於泵嗰個。 13 杜淦堃資深大律師:好呀,我哋睇下面講泵嗰幾個先,頭先我打斷咗你。 14 姜世明先生:好。 15 杜淦堃資深大律師:縮番細。 16 姜世明先生:呢兩個泵掣,係因為個泵房有兩個泵。 17 杜淦堃資深大律師:係。 18 姜世明先生:佢就一個係主泵,一個係一個後備泵,呢兩個泵掣嘅開關,即使個主電源係供 19 應畀佢都好呢,佢都可以控制個別泵嘅開關嘅。 20 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢個係上水泵,係咪? 21 姜世明先生:呢個係加壓泵。 22 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢個加壓泵,唔。 23 姜世明先生:係。 24 杜淦堃資深大律師:跟住呢? 25 姜世明先生:係,中間呢個泛掣(譯音),即係撥去左同撥去右呢,佢嘅--或者我繼續講 26 埋,佢有兩盞燈嘅,咁即係佢運行嘅時候,嗰個泵運行佢就會著嗰個燈,咁有個 27 System Reset 叫做系統復位,即係話個系統可能啟動咗嘅時間,撳番佢個掣嘅 28 話,佢就會有個將佢係reset 個效果嘅。 29 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔。 30 姜世明先生:係,咁下面有兩個故障燈,如果佢故障嘅時候就會著嘅。 31 杜淦堃資深大律師:中間嗰個呢?(English Spoken)。 32 姜世明先生:呢個燈我答你唔到,我都同技術人員傾過,我係唔可以答你佢個閃燈係幾時會 33 閃。 34 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白。 35 姜世明先生:喺我調查裏面都冇探討呢個問題,唔。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十天

8 本謄本由Epiq 編製 杜淦堃資深大律師:好。我想問,同你講番就係我哋睇到呢,其實左邊正常嗰個呢?其實我 1 哋係... 2 姜世明先生:係,正常試驗。 3 杜淦堃資深大律師:其實係正常試驗。 4 姜世明先生:冇錯。 5 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢個係愛嚟測試系統我相信,係咪? 6 姜世明先生:冇錯。 7 杜淦堃資深大律師:喺你第一份證人供詞第10.3 段,我都麻煩你去睇一睇,WS1。 8 姜世明先生:唔。 9 杜淦堃資深大律師:101 頁就係你供詞嘅開始,係,或者你睇一睇。 10 姜世明先生:係。 11 杜淦堃資深大律師:你熟悉呢一段,係咪? 12 姜世明先生:好。 13 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢度你就講咗話喺搵到啲唔正常嘅情況,喺之後嘅調查裏面,就係喺嗰 14 個泵房裏面,喺七棟嘅大廈裏面,嗰個刀掣係閂咗嘅,即係我哋頭先去睇嗰個細啲 15 嘅盒,係咪咁? 16 姜世明先生:正確。 17 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋頭先睇嗰啲相喇嗰個系統,咁講啱唔啱?我相信宏福苑八座其實都 18 係用同一個系統嘅? 19 姜世明先生:係。 20 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想問下你呢一個講法又啱唔啱呢?相信其實有關嘅註冊消防承辦商 21 呢,佢哋應該都會對我哋頭先睇嗰個系統係最熟悉嘅。 22 姜世明先生:正確。 23 杜淦堃資深大律師:因為佢哋要去檢查保養系統。 24 姜世明先生:同意。 25 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔。而頭先呢一套系統,我哋知道宏福苑係80 年代起好嘅樓宇。 26 姜世明先生:係。 27 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢一個系統其實都係喺嗰個年代起嘅樓宇裏面,可唔可以話其實都係相 28 當普遍,即係呢個唔係一個特別宏福苑至有嘅系統? 29 姜世明先生:我同意呢個講法。 30 杜淦堃資深大律師:係。我哋睇番消防處喺1982 年出嘅設備與裝置及--設備與裝備及設備 31 檢查測試同埋保養守則,我哋知道有個叫做(English Spoken) 32 姜世明先生:唔,係。 33 杜淦堃資深大律師:相信你好熟悉,唔使麻煩我哋再揭去,佢11 條咁講嘅「(English 34 Spoken)」(呢一個系統應該係要接駁呢個消防喉轆同消防栓。) 35 姜世明先生:佢哋嘅運作有個相連性。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十天

9 本謄本由Epiq 編製 杜淦堃資深大律師:所以同一個消防總掣去閂呢兩個唔同嘅系統,呢一個係一個正常嘅操 1 作,亦都喺條例底下其實係一個要求嚟嘅,可唔可以咁講? 2 姜世明先生:呢個條例底下冇要求佢,去到呢個年代,冇要求佢個別提供一個電源,就冇要 3 求,就並非話我要求你一個電源去控制兩個系統,喺呢個80 年代呢,我或者重 4 複,佢並沒一個要求去分開電源。 5 杜淦堃資深大律師:可唔可以咁講?即係後來--如果我聽你咁講嘅話,後來其實係有個新嘅 6 要求,就要兩個唔同嘅電源? 7 姜世明先生:正確,係。 8 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁我想問下你個意思係點,因為我哋睇番有關嗰條11 條呢,係咁講 9 “(English Spoken)”(「消防警鐘嘅系統呢,操作原理應該係同嗰個水泵 10 係相關連」),點解係(English Spoken),即係其實嗰個用意係點,你講唔 11 講到畀我哋聽? 12 姜世明先生:唔,好。我哋講番加壓泵係愛嚟做乜。加壓泵係令到整個大廈嘅消防栓/喉轆 13 系統裏面嘅水都有足夠嘅壓力,無論係高層、低層。如何讓市民係去啟動到呢個系 14 統,比如說佢想拉條喉出嚟,希望有水壓呢,咁佢係可以係將佢呢個警鐘嘅警鐘按 15 鈕所謂,所謂(English Spoken)打咗去,啟動咗佢就會啟動埋呢個泵。 16 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白。 17 姜世明先生:咁呢個係令到呢個泵著嘅其中一個方法。 18 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白,即係所以其實我諗個用意就係因為你去打爛個(English 19 Spoken)去啟動個警鐘嘅時候,嗰個情況應該可能有需要用到個喉轆。 20 姜世明先生:唔,係嘞。 21 杜淦堃資深大律師:所以同一個系統同一個掣令到個喉轆系統啟動呢,呢個係有咁嘅必要 22 嘅,因為你要救火嘛。 23 姜世明先生:係,冇錯,冇錯,係。 24 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白。咁聽你講個系統嘅設計,我亦都可唔可以咁講?如果個消防水缸要放 25 水,其實係應該可以閂咗消防水泵嗰個獨立開關,你唔使入加壓泵房閂呢個總掣嘅,可 26 唔可以咁講? 27 姜世明先生:同意。 28 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁有咩嘢情況之下我哋要閂咗呢個--入泵房閂呢個總掣?可能佢要做啲 29 測試,係咪?切斷個電源? 30 姜世明先生:主要就係會因為一啲電力安全嘅原因,比如--正如律師你講,大狀你講嗰個測 31 試。 32 杜淦堃資深大律師:或者維修。 33 姜世明先生:嗄,維修嘅時候有啲電路佢--電力安全,驚觸電等等。 34 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係我諗如果咁講嘅話,亦都可能我重複緊,就係如果佢放--只係做一 35 個放消防水缸放水嘅動作,其實就並唔需要去閂呢啲嘅電掣,可唔可以咁講? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十天

10 本謄本由Epiq 編製 姜世明先生:同意。 1 杜淦堃資深大律師:頭先我哋探討過一樣嘢,其實你話去放水唔使閂電掣,呢個應該係一個 2 好基本嘅知識嚟嘅,對於消防工程承辦商,可唔可以咁講? 3 姜世明先生:同意。 4 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想之後同你探討一下各個有關嘅持份者可能當時嘅責任問題,同埋可 5 能我哋點樣去令到--走落去,令到相關嘅責任係清晰啲嘅。 6 姜世明先生:好。 7 杜淦堃資深大律師:大家都知道而家係好不幸地係因為物業管理公司ISS 工程部嘅員工就按 8 宏業嘅要求,就幫助佢哋去進行呢個消防水缸維修工程,就閂咗我哋知道嗰個刀掣 9 嘅,大家都知道其實佢係唔係一名註冊承辦商嘅員工嚟嘅,佢係物業管理公司嘅員 10 工。 11 姜世明先生:知道。 12 杜淦堃資深大律師:如果置邦其實搵咗一個註冊消防嘅承辦商去幫助嘅話,我相信佢冇可能 13 會閂咗呢個掣嘅,可唔可以咁講? 14 姜世明先生:佢自己公司就唔會去做呢樣嘢,因為根本上佢唔應該去做呢樣嘢,佢冇牌嘅 15 話。 16 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,我哋講緊ISS 冇牌。 17 姜世明先生:係。 18 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係第一個問題就係當然佢唔應該去鬥。 19 姜世明先生:係,冇錯。 20 杜淦堃資深大律師:第二樣嘢就係如果佢搵咗個有牌嘅人去做,有牌嘅公司應該有個知識就 21 唔會需要閂呢個掣? 22 姜世明先生:如果for 放水嘅係唔需要。 23 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係如果講得俗少少,呢個係其實係一個幾低級嘅錯誤嚟,即係幾 24 (English Spoken)嘅錯誤嚟,咁講啱唔啱? 25 姜世明先生:我都同意。 26 杜淦堃資深大律師:而如果真係有個註冊承辦商咁去做,呢個相信係一個非常嚴重嘅疏忽, 27 係咪? 28 姜世明先生:同意。 29 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想問下就係而家我哋呢個情況,ISS 嘅員工佢冇搵註冊嘅消防裝置承 30 辦商,佢自己走去閂咗嗰個掣,個責任問題。因為我睇過你第一份證人供詞第 31 5.5.3 段,我哋睇番WS1,你交代咗喺法例之下,似乎嗰個責任問題嘅。你呢度我 32 嘅理解就係業主立案法團就一般就會將消防裝置嘅日常管理工作交畀物業管理公 33 司,我哋叫做(English Spoken)。 34 姜世明先生:係。 35 杜淦堃資深大律師:你個簡寫係“PMC”。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十天

11 本謄本由Epiq 編製 姜世明先生:正確,唔。 1 杜淦堃資深大律師:所以ISS 作為物業管理公司嘅代表,其實佢應該係有責任確保呢個消防 2 裝置嘅正常運作,我咁理解啱唔啱? 3 姜世明先生:同意。 4 杜淦堃資深大律師:有冇情況,物業管理公司係可以自行處理開關呢個系統,而唔搵承辦商 5 做? 6 姜世明先生:咁樣做係犯法。 7 杜淦堃資深大律師:以你嘅經驗,我哋見到呢個情況有啲第二啲人走去開關個系統或者去處 8 理個系統,喺你咁多年嘅經驗裏面,呢個係咪罕有嘅事,定係其實時不時都會發 9 生? 10 姜世明先生:前者。 11 杜淦堃資深大律師:或者我咁問你,你過去嗰十幾年有冇見過有啲唔係註冊承辦商嘅人走去 12 處理嗰個系統,而畀你哋發現?即係你唔知就講唔到,但係我相信你哋發現就係一 13 個大問題,我想問下你有幾常發生? 14 姜世明先生:我未見過呢個總電掣係畀非承辦商嘅人閂咗。 15 杜淦堃資深大律師:而家嘅法例,我哋知道喺消防裝置及設備條例(《消防(裝置及設備) 16 規例》?),即係香港法例第95B 章,如果唔係一個註冊嘅承辦商佢擅自處理個消 17 防系統,係有個五級嘅罰款,即係港幣50,000 鈫,呢一個似乎係喺法例底下最大 18 嘅懲罰,係咪?即係罰款50,000 鈫。 19 姜世明先生:正確。 20 杜淦堃資深大律師:對於呢個足唔足夠,呢個係我哋可以探討嘅問題?喺... 21 姜世明先生:係,我都係會希望如果將呢個聆訊裏面,我都會喺呢個加重刑罰呢方面希望有 22 機會補充嘅,係,答咗問題先。 23 杜淦堃資深大律師:或者就呢一方面,你可以而家去補充。 24 姜世明先生:好。呢個《消防(裝置承辦商)規例》,Cap. 95A 同Cap. 95B,佢嘅罪 25 行當中嘅最高刑罰就係50,000 鈫,就冇一個監禁嘅刑罰嘅。我哋都對照過其實一 26 啲其他嘅,例如電梯等等嘅一啲,都係一啲專業嘅承辦嘅一啲法例,咁佢個刑罰係 27 較為重,個罰款多啲,兼且嗰個啲董事或者一啲合資格人士係都有一個監禁嘅刑 28 罰。咁喺呢方面,我哋事實上係已經係打算喺個法例度有個--喺個刑罰上係上調, 29 係希望加強個阻嚇性,起碼就講番啱啱呢個叫做Section 7,即係話冇牌去處 30 理、修理、保養、檢查、安裝消防裝置及設備,嗰個刑罰係希望上調嘅。 31 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想--另外想問一問你,其實消防處有冇向大眾,尤其是啲物業管理公 32 司作出啲指引或者提醒,叫佢哋唔好去擅自處理呢個消防裝置嘅?我知道喺我哋宏 33 福苑呢個事件之後,你哋有啲通函出咗嘅,我都想你睇一睇同埋解一解釋嗰啲通 34 函? 35 姜世明先生:好,但係喺宏福苑事件前,其實都有你頭先講嗰樣嘢。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十天

12 本謄本由Epiq 編製 杜淦堃資深大律師:你可唔可以解一解畀大家聽,... 1 姜世明先生:好,好。 2 杜淦堃資深大律師:...之前你哋係做過啲乜嘢? 3 姜世明先生:事實上,物業管理公司就唔係喺法例上,我哋消防處同佢有個監管。但係我哋 4 同佢嗰個合作都係緊密嘅,特別係管--物業管理公司嘅一個叫做物監局,咁我哋同 5 佢亦都係知道,事實上唔少消防設備其實好多時都要靠物管公司嘅人員係好好咁樣 6 去睇住,所以就正如我口供所講,事實上係制訂咗一份指南,咁嗰份指南我哋亦都 7 有同物監局係一同去磋商,從而制訂出嚟。咁個指南亦都係喺我嘅口供嘅一個 8 (English Spoken)裏面都有包含住,咁裏面除其他事項外,係有兩三個亮點 9 都好值得講嘅,就係第一,就係話--亦都再三咁提佢,Cap. 95B 嘅Section 7 10 呢個唔係承辦商係不應去修理、保養、檢查、安裝消防設施及--消防設施,雖然法 11 例已經寫咗,我哋喺指南度都再三提咗佢。 12 此外,指南裏面亦都係有提醒,即係話物監局去提醒持牌嘅物管公司,其實佢 13 --即使佢係委聘咗消防設備嘅保養、檢查、修理係畀承辦商都好,佢仍然要關注住 14 佢嘅工作,監察住佢嘅工作嘅,咁呢兩個就係我嘅補充。 15 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係或者可唔可以咁講?如果ISS 有留意到你哋指南嘅內容,有跟從嘅 16 話,呢件事件唔應該發生? 17 姜世明先生:有留意咗物監局嘅指南嘅話,同意,唔應該發生。 18 杜淦堃資深大律師:主席,個指南喺B10/tab 7,我諗頭先姜生亦都解釋得好清楚,我諗 19 紀錄度有得㗎嘞。 20 陸啟康法官:B10。 21 杜淦堃資深大律師:Tab 7。 22 陸啟康法官:B10。 23 杜淦堃資深大律師:5613 頁。 24 陸啟康法官:5613,唔該。 25 杜淦堃資深大律師:換句話講,呢個係物監局嘅指南,但係裏面嘅內容當然就係你同佢哋共 26 同去準備? 27 姜世明先生:係,正確。 28 杜淦堃資深大律師:我都想你睇一睇同解釋畀大家聽,喺2026 年其實你哋亦都發出咗兩個 29 通函。 30 姜世明先生:係。 31 杜淦堃資深大律師:同今次嘅事件都係有關,如果喺Bundle 3-1/1979 頁。呢個應該係 32 2026 年第一號嘅通函。 33 姜世明先生:係。 34 杜淦堃資深大律師:我都想你用呢個機會解一解釋畀大家聽,即係喺呢件事件之後,你哋出 35 咗呢個通函,個主要內容係點樣樣? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十天

13 本謄本由Epiq 編製 姜世明先生:好。呢個通函其實係補充緊我哋1/2021 嘅一啲事幹,包括喺A 欄就係一啲損 1 壞嘅告示,以往我淨係要求佢張貼告示喺當眼處,但係而家我哋規限佢個告示係A3 2 咁大張,此外我就要求佢哋就過膠,同埋張貼嘅時間就唔係張貼喺地下樓層,而係 3 張貼喺每一個樓層嘅例如𨋢、大堂呢啲當眼處,係希望係更加加強呢個告示嘅效 4 能。 5 杜淦堃資深大律師:你或者再落去,等姜先生睇一睇。 6 姜世明先生:係,冇錯。係,或者你可以上番A 嗰欄,唔好意思,我想睇番。我更正番,因 7 為我啱啱講嗰個大A3 告示,其實係2/2026,呢個1/26 嘅A,我修正一下,我 8 係--A 欄係講我哋係希望佢將嗰個唔用得嗰啲部件,我比如係一個喉轆,佢已經係 9 你關閉咗之後佢唔用得,希望加強讓使用者知道嗰個嘢係壞咗,唔好浪費時間去用 10 佢,我就貼一個告示喺度,寫有個交叉打咗喺度,咁就好容易就睇到嗰個嘢係唔用 11 得,咁每一個唔用得嘅都要去貼一個咁嘅告示,咁呢個係A。 12 杜淦堃資深大律師:我見到A1、2 嗰度,對於嗰個尺寸都有要求? 13 姜世明先生:係,冇錯。咁可以去B,咁呢個係我哋睇到初次畀我哋發現有一啲唔係承辦商 14 嘅人,佢冇呢個知識下,咁誤為咁樣去閂咗個電掣,造成即係好大問題,咁呢個我 15 哋就係首先提醒承辦商去做完一啲修理、保養、檢查嘅時候,喺個電源管理方面要 16 打醒十二分精神,咁亦且當佢完成咗保養,我哋係整咗個叫類似封條,如果係綠色 17 封條嘅意思,就係話你個電源喺開嘅狀態,你就黐住佢,如果有人係所謂 18 (English Spoken )過去,就有人去冇必要地咁郁咗個掣,咁出咗啲 19 (English Spoken)嘅式樣就知道畀人哋搞過。咁對於喺一啲物管嘅朋友就比 20 較容易去睇到原來個掣係有人已經係郁過,咁有咩嘢事就可以叫佢搵番承辦商跟 21 進。例如佢需要短暫關閉去做維修,佢係用紅色嘅封條黐住個電源,同樣地,如果 22 係有人郁咗個掣又可以睇到係有(English Spoken)嘅字樣出咗嚟。 23 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔,而對於個封條嘅尺寸,我哋見到都有要求? 24 姜世明先生:冇錯,係。 25 杜淦堃資深大律師:C 就係承辦商不當同埋行為同埋疏忽,你哋提醒咗法例裏面嘅要求? 26 姜世明先生:係,冇錯。 27 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁而喺D 就係嗰個生效同過渡安排。 28 姜世明先生:係,冇錯。 29 杜淦堃資深大律師:跟住如果你睇1985 頁。 30 姜世明先生:係,咁呢個就係我嘅第二份通函,同樣地都係補充番1/2021 嘅嗰個關於關閉 31 嗰個安排嘅一啲情況。係,可以落少少,係,冇錯。第一就係先提番承辦商就係有 32 個連鎖嘅效應,就係話如果你修理一套系統,而嗰個系統喺嗰個年代,正如好似宏 33 福苑咁樣,佢個電源係一個電源供應兩個系統,咁就再三,雖然我哋知道佢喺呢方 34 面有個認知,但係都為免生疑問,我出呢個通函係希望佢哋更清楚,佢係要知道唔 35 好關一套系統,就影響埋第二套系統,呢個係A 我嘅意思。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十天

14 本謄本由Epiq 編製 咁而B 嘅意思,就我之前提過,以往嘅通告雖然都有,但係今次我希望將放大 1 張啲,兼且係要求佢係喺電梯大堂係各個影響嘅樓層,甚至乎地下出入口嘅一啲當 2 眼地方都張貼,咁讓裏面大廈嘅使用者係更加清楚佢自己嘅大廈嘅消防設備係有呢 3 個咁嘅情況。 4 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想問下你哋嘅做法,係呢啲通函當然會發畀所有嘅消防工程或者裝置 5 嘅承辦商,係咪? 6 姜世明先生:係,冇錯。 7 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,仲有冇其他係發放係發放咗畀咩嘢單位? 8 姜世明先生:係,事實上我亦都同一啲物管業界嘅嗰個好多嘅人士,無論係物管會,即係好 9 多管理公司或者一啲管理好多商場地方嘅一啲組織係介紹過呢份通函,但係呢份通 10 函嗰個收函對象係承辦商,註冊承辦商,係。 11 杜淦堃資深大律師:承辦商,唔。我哋頭先睇咗可能要加強罰則。 12 姜世明先生:係。 13 杜淦堃資深大律師:你哋亦都有啲措施係令到承辦商也好,物管公司也好,佢哋更加理解嗰 14 個系統嘅運作。 15 姜世明先生:係。 16 杜淦堃資深大律師:就消防處喺呢件事,我哋頭先討論過嘅範疇,你哋仲有冇其他嘅建議? 17 姜世明先生:有嘅,我可能長少少講下。 18 杜淦堃資深大律師:好,你可以解釋下點解。 19 姜世明先生:咁剛才我講咗我哋係覺得事件之後,我哋喺個消防設施嘅監管上,一個修改法 20 例嘅必要性,我哋係留意到嘅。咁今次嘅事件係同關閉消防設備係有關,喺今天嚟 21 講,你只要係註冊承辦商,你就已經係有呢個資格去修理、保養、檢查、安裝、加 22 強消防設備,包括關閉,但係我哋留意到今天呢個咁嘅情況,我哋就想將來係話你 23 嘅關閉前係要取得我哋批准,咁呢個將來嘅修例嘅方向,咁我哋就可以去更加有個 24 法定嘅權力去審視呢個關閉,並且係關閉時你係咪有足夠嘅替代措施,保障番大廈 25 嘅居民,咁呢個係我第一個修例嘅支柱。 26 第二個修例嘅支柱,就係話留意到現時其實大廈嘅管理公司,其實就並非訂明 27 嘅消防設施嘅責任人嚟嘅,責任人係法團或者係業主。咁我哋考慮到其實例如喺電 28 梯公司呢啲咁嘅條例裏面,已經將管理一棟大廈嘅一啲團體,即係管理公司都係一 29 個責任人,咁我哋向呢個方向就希望將管理公司都係納入埋係我哋需要去保持住消 30 防設施係時刻有效運作嘅責任,咁呢個係第二個支柱。 31 係,第三個支柱就係我哋留意到,現時我哋個執法嗰個效率就都係出傳票,咁 32 我哋就希望引入--首次咁引入就係一啲消防設施或者係一啲消防--主動消防嘅一 33 啲違規事項一啲訂立罰款,就希望我哋可以更具效率咁樣,並且更具阻嚇性咁樣去 34 執行我哋保障消防安全嘅法例。 35 杜淦堃資深大律師:為咗讓大家了解,因為定額罰款嘅做法係可以更加迅速咁去將個事件處 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十天

15 本謄本由Epiq 編製 理好,或者將違規嘅人畀到個通知佢哋。 1 姜世明先生:係。 2 杜淦堃資深大律師:你哋覺得係--我相信係會加強--你哋覺得會加強個阻嚇作用? 3 姜世明先生:同意,係。此外,我哋現時嘅註冊承辦商佢總共有三個級別,為數大概一千個 4 喥,其實由佢註冊起,只要佢一路都係有住一啲叫具資格嘅人士嘅話,就有一個係 5 永久嘅註冊嘅,咁我希望都係效發番一啲其他嘅一啲承辦商,或者一啲專業嘅一啲 6 機關,就希望將來引入一個叫做唔係永久,而係一個一定期限後嘅註冊就要去續 7 牌,咁呢個就係--亦都係另一個支柱。 8 此外,我哋仲有--我哋希望就加大一啲我哋嘅執法權力,現時我哋嘅權力上, 9 雖然係調查火警,我可以進入一啲處所,但係你話我去搜查,甚至乎係所謂檢舉一 10 啲文件等等嘅權力就比較局限,咁喺呢方面我哋都會加強。 11 咁最後一個支柱,就係喺罰則方面,我哋留意到現時就以承辦商嚟講,佢嗰個 12 罰則50,000 鈫就最高,咁可能阻嚇性不足。此外,對於佢裏面嘅作業嘅人員, 13 就完全都冇一個人生監禁嘅一個嘅懲罰,咁亦都係過去就我哋考慮咗其他啲條例, 14 我哋就都頗大幅度希望就向上調,就希望加強個阻嚇性。大致係呢六個支柱,喺條 15 例上,但係其實仲有其他工夫。 16 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係--你頭先你講... 17 姜世明先生:呢個係喺修例上,係。 18 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,需要修例嘅安排就係你頭先講嗰啲? 19 姜世明先生:係,冇錯。 20 杜淦堃資深大律師:我相信一啲教育同推廣嘅工作,你哋有第二啲嘅睇法,或者係... 21 姜世明先生:係。 22 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想問番你一個情況,因為我哋知道而家我哋處理緊嘅問題,我哋喺聽 23 證會度得到嘅證據,管理公司--物管公司嘅鄭芷盈小姐佢喺聽證會上就提到咁樣樣 24 嘅,我問過佢,點解佢冇主動將掛牌嗰張SDN 畀宏泰Victory Fire,我問過點 25 解唔話畀佢哋知,佢就話「大維修停咗消防裝置呢份文件」--因為我同佢講話,其 26 實同宏泰嘅工作應該都有關,佢就話「冇醒起要畀佢」,我想你探討嘅就係作為物 27 業管理公司,其實協調唔同嘅消防裝置承辦商裏面,你覺得應唔應該都有一個角 28 色,或者你哋有冇考慮過呢個問題? 29 姜世明先生:同意佢係要協調嘅,如果佢係選擇咗搵兩個或以上嘅承辦商去跟進佢自己嘅大 30 樓。因為如果係一個嘅話,呢啲可能溝通嘅問題就會少好多。 31 杜淦堃資深大律師:似乎而家有嘅規定裏面就關於呢一個情況就冇特別去考慮,個原因係咪 32 其實據你嘅經驗,係咪比較少會有多過一個承辦商,定係之前其實冇遇過呢個情 33 況,所以冇針對去處理? 34 姜世明先生:我哋都有見過嘅,多寡我唔可以好肯定咁講,我可以猜想個理由就係因為始終 35 呢啲維修工程都係有個招標,有啲價格,咁會唔會係佢哋覺得係價格合適,例如呢 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十天

16 本謄本由Epiq 編製 一個系統某一啲部件,所以佢就選擇咁做,所以我係有見過咁嘅情況。 1 杜淦堃資深大律師:就對於嗰個協調角色嘅,你哋有冇任何意見或者可唔可以係比較具體啲 2 有規管? 3 姜世明先生:係,同意就係協調係重要,咁以往甚少見到協調上出問題,但係即使如此,今 4 次我留意到個協調出問題,所以我哋剛才講,喺修例方面,如果你要關閉設施,你 5 要先取得我哋批准,咁我就有一個好好嘅機會去探討佢究竟係咪搵幾個承辦商,你 6 會唔會出現協調嘅問題,我都可以一一咁樣係掌握住。 7 杜淦堃資深大律師:另外,我想同你探討一下宏泰消防嗰個責任問題。 8 姜世明先生:好。 9 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋喺聽證會度聽到個證人嘅解釋,佢哋話大火前其實進行咗消防系統 10 嘅維修期間,佢發現咗個加壓泵房個總掣其實係關閉咗嘅,如果一個註冊消防裝備 11 嘅裝置嘅承辦商入咗個加壓泵房,見到呢個總掣關閉咗,呢一個對佢哋嚟講相信係 12 一個警號嚟嘅,係咪? 13 姜世明先生:同意。 14 杜淦堃資深大律師:好,佢知道咗之後,而家呢個情況就係佢就去問物業管理公司,物管公 15 司似乎同佢解釋就係話「係,因為要維修個消防缸,所以有個維修工程嘅時候,就 16 有第二個人去處--掂過呢個掣」,你覺得註冊承辦商喺呢個情況之下,佢應該點 17 做?其實,根據現有嘅規例。 18 姜世明先生:關於關閉承辦--關閉系統,其實我哋係有通函1/2021,咁裏面都--喺B 欄 19 嗰度都講得好清楚,如果佢承辦商當佢負責修理一啲系統,而遇到個系統係有失 20 效,今次例如被閂咗個掣,佢就係失效,其實佢係要通知消防處,並且,係要通知 21 大廈嘅居民,好讓通函裏面嘅其他裏面列舉嘅一啲運作,比如說如果我哋知,咁我 22 哋係會有一啲措施,例如係加一啲出勤嘅消防車,又例如我哋會派員去做一啲為咗 23 行動部署上嘅一啲審視、視察,同埋我哋都會要求大廈係有成十幾個建議會畀大 24 廈,好讓佢哋例如張貼告示通知居民,例如去加強佢哋嘅消防安全嘅一啲日常嘅 25 (English Spoken)等等都會有。 26 杜淦堃資深大律師:你提到呢個就係1/2021 裏面嘅個通函嘅規定。 27 姜世明先生:係。 28 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁你頭先都講過,有關規定裏面提到,如果佢哋發現個消防系統係出現 29 嚴重失效嘅情況,其實佢哋係要採取行動嘅。 30 姜世明先生:唔。 31 杜淦堃資深大律師:我淨係想呢度你幫一幫我哋,睇下你哋有冇考慮過?如果你睇番 32 B2/1303,係我哋見到有關嘅通函嘅,呢個可能係個英文同中文嘅問題,1303, 33 B2 ,如果落到1303 嘅底部B 嗰度,我哋見到英文版就提到話“(English 34 Spoken)”(「有書面通知,如果係有關閉系統嘅時候,有問題或者係有其他情 35 況」),嚴重失效嘅情況。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十天

17 本謄本由Epiq 編製 姜世明先生:係。 1 杜淦堃資深大律師:英文呢度講係“(English Spoken)"嘅,呢個可能係或者翻譯上 2 高會有啲改善嘅空間,係咪? 3 姜世明先生:剛才我講嚴重失效,但係我修正番係失效咗足夠,因為佢中文寫「失效」,中 4 文係寫「嚴重失效」。 5 杜淦堃資深大律師:中文係寫「嚴重失效情況」嘅其實。 6 姜世明先生:我明你嗰個。 7 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,我明白大部分裝置嘅承辦商可能都係睇中文嘅,但係我淨係見到呢 8 一度有咁嘅... 9 姜世明先生:呢度同意嘅,如果我可以修正,不過我都睇番跟住嗰個段落,都埋講埋佢點樣 10 為之--即係影響成棟樓,係。 11 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白。係,譬如你呢度之後--我哋都同意之後都講咗一啲嘅情況出嚟 12 嘅。 13 姜世明先生:係。 14 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想同你探討另外一個情況就係Victory Fire,宏泰個證人解釋, 15 佢話知道嗰個電掣閂咗之後佢就聯絡咗ISS,即係管理處,管理處就話畀佢知要整 16 水缸所以就閂咗,同埋已經有人--第二個承辦商掛咗牌。喺呢個情況下,我哋知道 17 鍾傑文先生佢有一個講法,佢就係話--我諗你都留意到。 18 姜世明先生:唔。 19 杜淦堃資深大律師:佢話「有第二個承辦商做㗎嘛,咁佢哋覺得唔好教人做嘢,覺得自己咁 20 走去問已經多咗事。」你覺得喺現行嘅規例之下,你能唔能夠接受佢呢個講法呢? 21 姜世明先生:唔接受。 22 杜淦堃資深大律師:你可唔可以解釋點解呢? 23 姜世明先生:畢竟我哋喺呢個行業裏面做緊嘅係消防設備,消防設備嘅終極目的係保障大廈 24 嘅居民,如果我哋知道個電源都冇咗,其實嗰套系統就算其他嘢得都好,都發揮唔 25 到個功用,一旦發生火警,鐘又唔響,水又冇,通函裏面都已經提咗佢,應該係通 26 知我哋,好讓我哋通函裏面其他嘅部署加消防車,通知居民加強大廈消防安全嘅工 27 作係得以辦理嘅。 28 杜淦堃資深大律師:如果我哋睇番我哋頭先見過嗰份通函,去番1302 頁,因為我哋見到佢 29 係咁寫嘅最尾嗰段,你見到佢講“(English Spoken)"(「有關承辦商係會 30 由擁有人去聘請去睇話需唔需要去維修相關嘅系統,所以承辦商作係應該作為主要 31 人士去通知消防處」),中文207 頁我可以同你講,因為我相信你認識,嗰個講就 32 係話「該承辦商係最適合向消防處去掛牌」。 33 姜世明先生:唔。 34 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想問下你嘅,其實就係你知道而家宏福苑發生咗呢個情況有兩個承辦 35 商,你哋覺得其實應該係由邊個承辦商去通知消防處,Victory Fire 、中華發 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十天

18 本謄本由Epiq 編製 展,定係兩個都需要你覺得? 1 姜世明先生:兩個都需要。 2 杜淦堃資深大律師:中華發展個原因就係因為佢入嗰個SDN? 3 姜世明先生:係。 4 杜淦堃資深大律師:所以佢應該有責任通知消防處,其實個電力系統都關閉咗,係唔係咁? 5 姜世明先生:如果佢知嘅話。 6 杜淦堃資深大律師:如果佢知嘅話。 7 姜世明先生:係。 8 杜淦堃資深大律師:如果我哋探討過,如果佢有落場睇,佢應該會知,而佢應該落場睇? 9 姜世明先生:冇錯。 10 杜淦堃資深大律師:宏泰呢?宏泰因為佢唔係入SDN 嗰個公司,佢知道第二間入咗,你覺得 11 喺呢個情況之下,佢唔可以倚賴入咗嗰一間個原因我相信就係你頭先嘅解釋,我想 12 睇下你有冇補充? 13 姜世明先生:一個專業嘅承辦商見到個電掣係呢個年份嘅panel 電掣,佢應該知道呢個電 14 掣冇咗電,佢唔係淨係影響一套系統,佢會令到個警鐘系統都冇埋。如果佢得悉有 15 另一間承辦商係就住消防栓、喉轆,如果佢得悉,我唔係好清楚佢得唔得悉,係有 16 住一套係入咗SDN,咁佢應該會知道仲尚有一套系統係未入SDN。根據通函裏面, 17 無論係(A)欄裏面講佢係佢受委聘去做修理、保養、檢查;此外,(B)欄亦都講你 18 預咗失效,你就要通知,所以係好明確嘅。 19 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想探討嘅另外一個題目,就係我哋頭先講過呢個情況有多過一個註冊 20 承辦商,咁你覺得物管公司係應該要有一個協調嘅角色? 21 姜世明先生:同意。 22 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,我想你解釋畀大家聽,你哋消防處其實都係知道當時有多過一個註 23 冊承辦商,因為我哋睇番如果FS251 同埋SDN 嘅時間,譬如就宏泰閣嘅消防栓同 24 喉轆系統,其實宏泰係3 月31 號就入咗FS251,中華發展喺七日之後,就入咗 25 SDN 話要關閉系統,所以其實你哋嘅紀錄裏面都睇到應該係有兩個承辦商處理緊大 26 廈嘅消防系統。喺現有嘅機制裏面,其實你哋會唔會有任何嘅指引,就係話我哋嘅 27 同事都要留意呢一樣嘢,或者要做一啲嘅協調,或者提醒嘅工作,如果冇嘅話,有 28 啲咩嘢將來教訓可以汲取? 29 姜世明先生:事實上,證書嘅寄遞到去我哋嗰度量都多,實話講,每年三十萬張。並且啲證 30 書嚟到我哋寫字樓,嗰個而家仲或者係實體紙本嘅郵遞等等,都有啲所謂前後腳咁 31 樣嚟到,所以你話能夠好微細地監察住每一張,我哋都要動腦筋點樣做得更好,呢 32 個同意我哋係要加強。剛剛提到話兩間承辦商,咁我留意講番我之前提過,其實物 33 監局出嘅指南裏面都有提過管理公司其實佢係要關注住佢自己委派嘅承辦商。咁今 34 次我哋見到其實由佢哋大廈方面就去委託咗兩個承辦商,如果佢按指南去做,其實 35 佢要好好做好協調,我認為佢有呢個責任。但係即便如此,我哋仍然覺得消防設備 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十天

19 本謄本由Epiq 編製 嘅監管我哋係責無旁貸,因此,我哋將來修例方面,就係正如我所講,我加入咗個 1 叫做關閉批准嘅要求,咁如果你去關閉佢嘅時間,我就可以一目了然睇到其實你會 2 唔會係超過一個承辦商去跟進緊,我亦都會喺嗰個批准時係加以去探討會唔會出亂 3 子等等。 4 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋明白現有制度喺某個情況上高,因為呢啲承辦商要註冊,而我哋見 5 到之前探討過你哋亦都有一個紀律聆訊嘅制度。譬如我哋見到中華,其實嗰個紀律 6 聆訊委員會係你去主持嘅,佢停牌三個禮拜係你罰佢嘅。 7 姜世明先生:係,係。 8 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想探討嘅就係喺某個程度上高,消防當然係要倚賴嗰個行業自律,因 9 為佢哋本身有個法定嘅責任。會唔會有一個睇法?就係其實你睇宏泰同埋中華之間 10 嗰個責任,宏泰其實都可唔可以話中華都係有牌,佢入咗張SDN,所以其實個責任 11 都喺佢嗰度,點解我唔可以倚賴佢嗰個專業資格? 12 姜世明先生:今次嘅事件就係一個好好嘅例證,就係如果你見到一啲事幹,你唔跟通函去跟 13 進,就會令到個通知係缺少咗,起碼有一套系統冇人知係關閉咗,除咗佢哋之外, 14 因為佢哋知道個掣,佢係應該懂得個掣係會令到兩套系統都唔能夠運作。 15 陸啟康法官:但係可唔可以問下你?如果你話宏泰,即係Victory Fire 其實如果佢去到 16 嘅時候,佢唔知道嗰個(English Spoken)係包乜嘢㗎,可能包埋(English 17 Spoken)都唔出奇,咁其實佢係唔係應該問咗業管攞咗個SDN 睇,佢先至決定點 18 樣跟進?因為其實你一日未睇SDN,你都唔知其實佢閂咗咩嘢系統。 19 姜世明先生:同意,主席閣下,佢咁樣做係其中一個方法,其實佢可以打嚟搵我哋問,又或 20 者佢自己審慎起見,入咗去嗰個SDN,如果佢遍尋不獲或係係冇人覆佢,咁呢啲系 21 統係要保障市民生命嘅,就不宜輕率。 22 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想問嘅另外一樣嘢,就係即係頭先我哋講話即係而家冇機制去監察, 23 可能多過一個消防裝備嘅承辦商,提到嗰個現實,就係你哋一年有三十多萬嘅呢啲 24 咁嘅證書入嚟,但係如果要每一次關閉系統都由一個通報嘅機制變成一個審批嘅機 25 制,相信呢個都會帶嚟大量嘅工作量,係咪? 26 姜世明先生:同意。 27 杜淦堃資深大律師:每年講唔講到其實要停系統嘅通報你哋會收到係唔係就係三十萬張,定 28 係其實包咗其他? 29 姜世明先生:三十萬包咗其他證書嘅,頭先我講係因為涉及嘅證明可唔可以追得番落去個關 30 閉度,每年嘅關閉維修嘅個案係約為六千多宗。 31 陸啟康法官:即係呢個其實我想跟進問題。我哋建議可以建議好多嘢,但係即係我聽你咁嘅 32 即係講法,其實所需要嘅人手係好多個喎? 33 姜世明先生:係好多,主席閣下。 34 陸啟康法官:即係話其實如果呢啲修例嘅時候,你都一定會要求多啲人手先至可以做到呢 35 樣,因為每一次(English Spoken)你都要去睇,去... 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十天

20 本謄本由Epiq 編製 姜世明先生:事實上,主席閣下,我哋而家每一次(English Spoken)其實都有去睇, 1 不過係(English Spoken )完二十四小時,好多時消防局嘅同事係知道咗要 2 (English Spoken),係斷小時計,係幾個鐘頭就成架消防車成隊人去點樣部 3 署,所以我哋都係會去睇。 4 杜淦堃資深大律師:前幾日我哋留意到代表政府嘅大律師喺盤問Victory Fire 嘅時候問 5 到,佢知道消防裝置掛牌之後有冇諗過聯絡另外嗰間承辦商,即係問下中華。我想 6 問下根據現行法例嘅條文,似乎係冇--可唔可以咁講佢應該係冇責任去跟另外一間 7 承辦商直接溝通嘅? 8 姜世明先生:佢如果係按通函,佢有責任通報畀我哋,而佢做呢樣嘢,佢覺得要搵其他人去 9 釐清先至做到,咁佢應該去釐清。 10 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係換句話講,其實好多個方法去釐清,你自己去決定,你攞張SDN 嚟 11 睇下個方法,你去問第一個承辦商係一個方法,你自己走入去睇又係一個方法? 12 姜世明先生:係,正確。 13 杜淦堃資深大律師:不過我哋知道喺本案就全部都冇發生過。 14 姜世明先生:當然。 15 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想跟住問一問你,(English Spoken )(中華)嗰個責任嘅問 16 題,我相信都嗰個情況可能比較直接。佢哋喺聽證會都承認咗佢哋入SDN 其實就冇 17 親自或者派員工落場去睇當時嘅情況先至考慮掛牌,我想問下你就呢個做法,佢嘅 18 責任係去到邊度呢?從你哋嘅立場。 19 姜世明先生:呢個係佢作出咗一個虛假陳述,根據95B《消防(設備)規例》裏面,佢係犯 20 咗Section 9 嘅,應該係會得到最高嘅懲罰都係(English Spoken),起碼 21 佢犯咗呢條,我認為佢係。 22 杜淦堃資深大律師:有冇其他嘅法律責任問題我哋就再探討。但係即係從你哋嘅立場,呢個 23 行為係違法嘅? 24 姜世明先生:違法之餘,都係我哋覺得係非常不要得嘅。 25 杜淦堃資深大律師:所以換句話講,可唔可以咁講呢?喺你哋嘅立場其實喺現行嘅法律條文 26 裏面,其實已經明確規定咗佢哋要親自去監督個關閉嘅消防系統,可唔可以咁講? 27 姜世明先生:同意。 28 杜淦堃資深大律師:好,我哋頭先提到一啲標籤嘅問題,有一度我都想你澄清嘅。宏泰嘅電 29 工有位黃健華先生,佢作供期間其實確認嗰個總電掣--嗰個刀掣旁邊就冇任何警示 30 去說明嗰個掣都係會控制到嗰個警鐘嘅,我相信有人同咗你解釋佢呢個講法。 31 姜世明先生:係。 32 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁佢接受置邦大律師盤問時候,佢亦都承認,其實佢話喺你哋2022 年 33 版本嗰個裝置及設備有一個叫做檢查、測試同埋保養守則,其實喺呢一類型嘅旁邊 34 應該加啲警示標籤嘅? 35 姜世明先生:係。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十天

21 本謄本由Epiq 編製 杜淦堃資深大律師:如果我哋睇一睇有關嘅守則,應該就係文件夾B2/919 頁,你喺螢幕上 1 高見到,應該就係喺3.8.2,呢度講出咗就係有關嘅標籤要寫「火警警報」、「火 2 警警報切勿切斷電源」同埋「警告此電掣同時控制火警警報系統」。而我哋而家處 3 理呢個情況應該係要有第三張標籤,係咪? 4 姜世明先生:我頭先提到個通函裏面有一啲叫做封條,就係喺個電掣度黐住佢。呢個標籤我 5 可以後補番畀委員會。我嘅印象中佢係一個喺較新嘅樓宇先至擺咗喺呢份CoP 度。 6 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,所以我就係想同你澄清呢一個問題。因為你知道宏泰有一個講法, 7 就係話其實應該就係喺呢個要求喺80 年代已興建嘅樓宇有關嗰個CoP 係冇嘅,佢 8 就話覺得就喺呢個情況之下就唔應該有責任張貼,呢個講法你同唔同意?我想問。 9 姜世明先生:唔同嘅年代有唔同CoP,但係呢個標籤上面我要加以引證,可以後補畀消防處 10 --後補畀委員會,我呢一刻我唔確認。但係事實上唔同嘅年代,喺標籤係有唔同嘅 11 要求。 12 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係換句話講,對於鍾傑文先生呢一個講法暫時你就幫唔到我哋,你想 13 去印證番? 14 姜世明先生:需要引證。 15 杜淦堃資深大律師:就係我哋試一試,睇下可唔可以可能喺你嘅證人陳述書度搵度一啲答 16 案。因為我睇到你第四份證人陳述書,第19 段,喺bundle WS8/1917 頁,講 17 到個CoP 嘅時候,你都有個講法嘅,我見到你呢度話--你呢度針對鍾先生嗰個講 18 法,你話“(English Spoken)"(「消防處嘅立場就係話維修、保養就要根 19 據係有關嘅守則,當時適效嘅守則,即係話係講緊宏福苑第一次要入紙嘅時 20 候」),有關嘅Cop 應該就係佢入職起嗰陣嗰一個。 21 姜世明先生:我呢個講法喺呢個段落想想交代,就係話之前有個論述就係保養,即係話年檢 22 嘅保養就係一本要跟當--即係最新嗰本。然後維修就跟落成嗰本,即係好似仿佛係 23 講到一本新、一本舊,咁我呢個講法係想澄清無論係維修或者保養都係按住你樓宇 24 入則嗰個年代當時嘅標準。 25 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想搞清楚嘅就係--因為如果我哋睇番B2/719 頁,我哋知道你個 26 CoP 有兩部分嘅。 27 姜世明先生:唔。 28 杜淦堃資深大律師:B2,縮細少少。呢個我哋叫Code of Practice,你叫CoP? 29 姜世明先生:係,係。 30 杜淦堃資深大律師:其實有兩部分,我哋見到有一部分就係關於叫做(English 31 Spoken ),呢個就係去-- 呢個就係唔係關維修保養嘅,呢個係(English 32 Spoken)嘅,呢個係裝置。 33 姜世明先生:呢個係大廈需要提供咩嘢設備。 34 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,另外一個就係點樣去保養,(English Spoken),係咪? 35 姜世明先生:係,冇錯。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十天

22 本謄本由Epiq 編製 杜淦堃資深大律師:如果我睇番你第四份證人陳述書嗰個講法,係唔係換句話講,我哋見到 1 呢個2022 版關於設備檢查、測試同保養守則係唔適用喺宏福苑,你嘅意思係唔係 2 咁講? 3 姜世明先生:正確。 4 杜淦堃資深大律師:因為你喺第--因為我有留意到喺你第五份證人陳述書,最新入嗰份嘅第 5 12 段,你又係引用咗2022 版去解釋嘅,所以如果聽你啱啱澄清番,呢個2022 6 版可能係唔適用嘅,係咪? 7 姜世明先生:我呢度想有啲補充。 8 杜淦堃資深大律師:好。 9 姜世明先生:就住佢嗰啲裝置,如果係我哋例如2022 版喺裏面含咗一啲例如叫做年檢核對 10 表,年檢核對表事實上我哋21 年先推出,21 年之前就未有呢啲核對表,核對表係 11 一個提升嘅行--即係幫承辦商更好咁做呢啲工作。咁個核對表裏面係有一啲叫做不 12 適用嘅部分,所以喺佢跟住個核對表做,其實例如有啲部件係嗰個舊嘅樓舊嘅年代 13 冇,佢就寫「不適用」就得。 14 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係做唔到,係咪? 15 姜世明先生:做唔到,咁不適用,所以我又--就情況就係咁。 16 杜淦堃資深大律師:因為如果我哋再--我唔想花太多時間,因為有好多其他問題要探討。但 17 係我見到你第四份證人供詞其實引用咗有關嗰個1.14 嘅守則,我哋喺B2/883 頁 18 都睇到有關嘅,因為似乎如果我哋睇番1.14 有少少唔同嘅字眼,有啲唔同嘅講 19 法。你見到1.14 裏面就講得好清楚“(English Spoken)"(「承辦商就係 20 有最終嘅責任,就係要確認呢啲嘅裝置係運作良好。」)跟住你睇(1) 21 “(English Spoken)"(「有關嘅適用守則」)“(English Spoken ) 22 "你講咗個(English Spoken)嘅,即係唔同嘅時候有唔同嘅版本。 23 姜世明先生:係,版本,冇錯,係。 24 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係跟住你睇番下低第(ii)小段之後“(English Spoken)",跟 25 住“(English Spoken)",(i)就係“(English Spoken)",似乎就冇 26 講番有個分別喺度,就冇話有唔同嘅版本會適用,咁講啱唔啱? 27 姜世明先生:呢個1.14 我認為要一併睇,下面(i)、(ii)同埋(iii)嗰啲就係話畀大家 28 聽知有個(English Spoken),但係例如你究竟有冇嗰隻咁嘅部件,都係睇番 29 你嗰本當時嘅(English Spoken )。例如當時嘅(English Spoken)要求 30 你嗰個裝置係當時嗰個規定,咁就係當時嗰個規定,我呢度並唔係想講話你嗰啲部 31 件係要按住時代不停就住透過呢幾個段落令到佢不斷咁更新。 32 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白。因為亦都要要求啲部件隨住時間你不停咁去換佢更新,呢個亦都 33 可能係不切實際,係咪? 34 姜世明先生:冇錯,同意。 35 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋講番頭先嗰個加標籤個要求,因為相信我唔問你,可能有其他涉事 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十天

23 本謄本由Epiq 編製 方會問你,所以我想你解釋一下。嗰個警告標籤個要求就你而家去睇,你覺得喺宏 1 福苑適唔適用?我想問你哋個立場。3.8.2 嗰個。 2 姜世明先生:係,我要印證埋嗰個年份係唔係有呢個標籤要求,如果係有嘅話就係適用,如 3 果係冇嘅話,可能一啲較後嘅樓先至規定佢必須裝,就係會有較後先至必須要出現 4 呢個情況。 5 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係可能唔適用,你嘅意意思係? 6 姜世明先生:冇錯。 7 杜淦堃資深大律師:主席,我會之後會去到火警當日警鐘冇響嘅題目,呢個可能係一個適當 8 嘅時間。 9 陸啟康法官:Okay。我哋押後十分鐘。 10

11 11 時19 分聆訊押後 12 11 時29 分聆訊恢復 13

14 陸啟康法官:請繼續。 15 杜淦堃資深大律師:姜先生,我想講話我哋去睇火警當日個警鐘之前,因為頭先嗰個版本嘅 16 問題,我明白你需要啲時間可能去睇一睇,但係咁講啱唔啱呢?如果阿Sir 你都要 17 睇嘅話,其實承建商--或者所牽涉嘅承辦商本身其實可能有啲混亂,呢個都不足為 18 奇,係咪?即係就呢方面係咪可以寫清楚啲你覺得? 19 姜世明先生:守則永遠都可以更清楚嘅。 20 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想同你睇一睇就係個火警鐘當日冇響嘅問題。你第一份證人陳述書第 21 10.3 段都提到,你哋之後去檢視過啲火警鐘嘅大火之後。睇過八座嘅消防加壓泵 22 房總掣,除咗宏新之外,其他都係喺一個關閉嘅狀態,(English Spoken), 23 係咁樣,係咪? 24 姜世明先生:正確。 25 杜淦堃資深大律師:跟住你睇10.6 段,你就話消防人員喺大火當日,其實去到宏福苑,發 26 現宏新閣其實嗰個警鐘係短暫響起嘅。 27 姜世明先生:係。 28 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋有啲證據係睇到佢幾時響同響咗幾耐嘅。我可以話番畀你知,因為 29 呢個係可能我哋之後做嘅調查睇到,有位居民叫做曾偉娣(譯音)女士,佢畀警方 30 嘅口供就話喺佢嘅記憶裏面,個警鐘係大概15 點23 分就響起,響到15 點35 31 分,即係響咗超過十分鐘嘅。或者我更正,應該係話喺嗰段時間裏面,佢聽到響咗 32 幾耐呢,佢講得唔係好清楚嘅。呢個你哋有冇留意到?或者同你哋個認知係咪一 33 致? 34 姜世明先生:我哋都係聽番一啲居民嘅一啲唔係咁直接嘅口供,但係我哋聽過,係嘞。 35 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係似乎得出嚟嗰個印象係差唔多,係咪呀? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十天

24 本謄本由Epiq 編製 姜世明先生:差唔多,係。 1 杜淦堃資深大律師:資料顯示宏新閣其實過半嘅單位係受到大火嘅損毀,個情況其實同宏泰 2 閣係相約嘅。我哋為咗畀大家睇睇個情況,我哋去B5,去3530,我哋見到宏泰閣 3 嗰個損毀,我相信你見過,呢個情況? 4 姜世明先生:係。宏泰閣個損毀我喺其他嘅圖片度睇過。 5 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,呢個就係嗰個損毀嘅報告。如果我哋去睇3532,你會見到宏新 6 嘅,其實宏新都好犀利。我想同你探討係咁,我哋知道宏泰閣其實嗰個傷亡好嚴 7 重,有超過八十人死亡。宏新呢,你見到佢損毀得咁犀利,其實得兩個死亡個案嘅 8 啫。我相信你都會同意,其實有可能喺呢件事上高,點解個傷亡個程度咁唔同,同 9 個火警警報系統有著過有關,你會唔會同意呢個講法? 10 姜世明先生:同意,但係我都有啲補充。 11 杜淦堃資深大律師:請你補充。 12 姜世明先生:有關太過關聯性嘅多寡,我哋都要深入調查,係嘞。 13 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白,我並唔係想話淨係因為個警鐘一個因素。 14 姜世明先生:係嘞。 15 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係喺呢兩棟大廈個情況裏面,當然起碼嘅時間喇,嗰個火勢我哋都要 16 探討。 17 姜世明先生:係。 18 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係有一個明顯嘅分別,就係一個有警鐘,一個冇警鐘。 19 姜世明先生:同意。 20 杜淦堃資深大律師:所以相信你會同意呢個因素嘅比重,我哋可以再討論,但係呢個相信係 21 一個直接嘅因素,咁講啱唔啱? 22 姜世明先生:排除唔到嘅因素。 23 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔。另外一樣嘢我想你幫一幫我哋嘅,就係喺你第三份證人陳述書第 24 5.1.1 段,你提到你哋話消防處冇資料顯示宏仁閣個警鐘係啟動過嘅,你記得喇? 25 姜世明先生:係。 26 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋聽證會上高有啲其他嘅資料,因為我哋睇到ISS 嘅林文欣先生,佢 27 嘅證供話其實佢係有去過宏仁閣個泵房嗰度啟動咗嗰個手刀--嗰個刀掣,開番,跟 28 住佢聽到就響到個消防鐘吨,你知道呢一點,係咪? 29 姜世明先生:呢個係我畀口供後我就先知。 30 杜淦堃資深大律師:我知,我明白。 31 姜世明先生:係嘞,冇錯,係嘞。 32 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係我唔係話你個口供本身有問題,我只係想話畀你知有其他資料,我 33 想同你探討。 34 姜世明先生:及後,唔。 35 杜淦堃資深大律師:佢話佢之後跑去宏道閣試下開番個掣,但係就開唔到,跑去宏新就開到 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十天

25 本謄本由Epiq 編製 嘅。佢個證供就係基本上就話佢成功就啟動咗宏新同宏仁,我哋亦都有一啲另外嘅 1 資料,譬如啲居民嘅WhatsApp 訊息裏面,都睇到宏仁閣其實係響過警鐘嘅。而我 2 諗最直接個資料呢,就係我哋喺派發畀居民嘅問卷裏面,宏仁閣嗰七十六份問卷裏 3 面,有五十五位居民話係聽到警鐘嘅。我哋知道呢個同你哋後來去調查嗰個警鐘係 4 唔係仲係可以啟動,呢個可能係有少少出入嘅。因為似乎之後消防處去睇過,嗰個 5 掣係閂咗嘅,你記唔記得? 6 姜世明先生:正確,正如我口供呢度講。 7 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,所以我想問下你哋,就係喺你哋嘅調查裏面你哋講唔講到,就係有 8 咩嘢情況會係有響過,但係之後你哋去見到又係閂咗呢?有冇探討過呢個問題? 9 姜世明先生:我可以講就係閂咗嘅話,佢冇可能會響嘅。 10 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔。但係我哋知道似乎有好多喺裏面逃走嘅人就話響過,所以應該喺火 11 警期間係應該唔係閂咗嘅。 12 姜世明先生:如果佢響嘅話,佢應該係開番嘅。 13 杜淦堃資深大律師:冇錯。 14 姜世明先生:但係點解我哋嘅同事喺--應該係當時嘅4 點鐘左右,起火當天去到見到係閂 15 呢,咁呢個就係即係當時佢見到係閂。 16 杜淦堃資深大律師:解釋唔到嘅呢個,係咪呀?可唔可以咁講? 17 姜世明先生:閂咗就唔會響,響得嘅一定有人開咗,係嘞,係,係。 18 杜淦堃資深大律師:我諗大家都明白呢一點,即係閂咗之後有乜可能響呢? 19 姜世明先生:冇錯。 20 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁我所以問你嘅就係有冇調查過點解似乎有客觀證據係響過,但係你哋 21 去睇又係閂咗?即係如果... 22 姜世明先生:查唔到之前點解。 23 杜淦堃資深大律師:查唔到點解。 24 姜世明先生:係,係。 25 杜淦堃資深大律師:查唔到就查唔到,但係即係似乎證據就有咁嘅情況。 26 姜世明先生:冇錯,係。 27 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想探討下有冇另外一個可能性就係,如果個火警警報系統係閂咗嘅 28 話,有人開番,但係開番就未必一定會響嘅,可能佢有其他原因失效嘅。 29 姜世明先生:同意。 30 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋探討過個題目喇,如果早啲響嘅話,火警警報系統,相信呢個對今 31 次嘅傷亡係會有影響,呢個大家都冇爭議。 32 姜世明先生:係。 33 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係你哋嘅報告裏面亦都提到另外一點,你哋話除咗宏昌閣之外,七座 34 嗰個控制箱個保險絲,即係個fuse 我哋俗稱,其實係燒咗嘅,我相信你記得呢 35 點? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十天

26 本謄本由Epiq 編製 姜世明先生:我想睇番我相關個段落如果可以,唔。 1 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,我哋睇資料夾B2/1893 頁,呢個係你哋--我今朝早畀你睇過嗰份 2 報告嘅一部分,你見到話(English Spoken )有好多度都話(English 3 Spoken),有一個話(English Spoken),你見到喇? 4 姜世明先生:唔,係。 5 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢一點你而家睇番你係記得㗎嘛,係咪呀? 6 姜世明先生:係,冇錯,唔。 7 杜淦堃資深大律師:你哋個報告如果睇1890 到1892,其實就講咗每一座嗰個警報系統你 8 哋調查裏一啲嘅結果,譬如有冇閂到、可唔可以開番,另外你有啲(English 9 Spoken),有啲行動做咗嘅。我可以咁解釋畀你聽嘅,慳番啲時間,八座裏面淨 10 係得宏志嘅火警警報系統呢,喺嗰個fuse 之後係可以啟動嘅。 11 姜世明先生:唔。 12 杜淦堃資深大律師:宏泰同埋宏昌個火警警報系統,因為嗰個泵房後嚟嚴重水浸,你呢度寫 13 住(English Spoken)。 14 姜世明先生:係。 15 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁就測試唔到。 16 姜世明先生:係。 17 杜淦堃資深大律師:你證人陳述書第二份嘅5.2 段都有講呢樣嘢嘅,你記得? 18 姜世明先生:係。 19 杜淦堃資深大律師:根據報告,其餘五座個火警警報系統都開唔到,個火災之後嘅測試你就 20 會見到,喺五座裏面嘅其中一座,包括當日肯定有響過警鐘嘅宏新閣呢,同埋裏面 21 有人聽過火警嗰個宏仁閣呢,其實都係個fuse 有問題嘅,之後去check 番。 22 姜世明先生:之後睇番之後嘅狀態係咁。 23 杜淦堃資深大律師:係嘞,之後嘅狀態。我想問下你嘅就係,當然之後你去測試就唔代表之 24 前嗰個情況係一樣,因為有一個嚴重嘅火警吖嘛。 25 姜世明先生:係,係。 26 杜淦堃資深大律師:而嗰個fuse 可能係因為呢個火警所以燒咗嘅,咁樣理解啱唔啱? 27 姜世明先生:排除唔到,排除唔到。 28 杜淦堃資深大律師:排除唔到呢個情況。 29 姜世明先生:唔。 30 杜淦堃資深大律師:你嘅證人供詞都解過,我哋都想大家知道嘅就係,你第三份證人供詞嘅 31 6.1 同埋6.2 段,你講到整棟大廈其實個火警鐘係用一組嘅串聯電流路徑 32 (English Spoken)。 33 姜世明先生:係。 34 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係佢係連住嘅,本身嘅電線,可唔可以咁講? 35 姜世明先生:同意,係呀,唔。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十天

27 本謄本由Epiq 編製 杜淦堃資深大律師:而火災後調查發現宏福苑除咗宏志閣呢,其實好多位置嘅電路都係畀熱 1 力受損嘅,太熱嘞,其實燒埋嗰個火警警報系統,所以個警鐘就冇可能著得番,相 2 信呢個係一個可能性,係咪? 3 姜世明先生:係,冇錯,係一個可能性。 4 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想問下你嘅就係呢啲火警警報系統,其實一般我哋知道有關嗰啲 5 (English Spoken),有關個電纜,其實個設施,嗰啲線係應該外露吖,定係 6 埋喺石屎裏面,定係講唔到呀我哋? 7 姜世明先生:一般都係埋咗喺石屎裏面,唔。 8 杜淦堃資深大律師:而呢八座嘅火警警報系統嘅電纜,根據你嘅理解,其實係咪都係應該係 9 一啲防火嘅電纜,因為有關嘅要求似乎都改過嘅? 10 姜世明先生:喺80 年代嗰個防火嘅規格,電纜嘅規格就唔及較新嘅樓宇嗰個規格高。 11 杜淦堃資深大律師:所以有個可能就係宏福苑裏面呢啲電纜受損嘅情況比較嚴重嘅其中一個 12 原因就係嗰個物料嘅規格冇啲新啲嘅樓宇咁高,可唔可以咁樣講? 13 姜世明先生:有呢個可能,唔。 14 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係我諗有另外一個大家會問嘅問題,就係如果呢啲電纜係埋咗喺啲石 15 屎裏面,佢受損毀嘅機會又會低啲,可唔可以咁講? 16 姜世明先生:同意,但係個掣都係外露。 17 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔,所以如果燒咗個掣嘅話呢,亦都會影響呢個系統嘅問題嘞。 18 姜世明先生:同意,亦都想補充就係,就算佢哋個較高標準嘅電纜,其實都有個溫度。 19 杜淦堃資深大律師:當然。 20 姜世明先生:當個溫度去到一個點呢,就算再高--即係再高啲嘅標準都一樣有可能接近嘅結 21 果。 22 杜淦堃資深大律師:我記得你哋提供個資料講過話個火場個溫度最高係可以去到係咪五百多 23 度? 24 姜世明先生:我冇參考過呢份資料。 25 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係... 26 姜世明先生:但呢個溫度係有可能。 27 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔,所以如果係燒到咁高溫,其實可唔可以咁講呢?任何火警警報系統 28 都可能會失效? 29 姜世明先生:有呢個可能,唔。 30 杜淦堃資深大律師:80 年代系統,當然失效嘅可能性,佢個耐熱程度同而家新嘅系統比會有 31 一個距離喇。 32 姜世明先生:同意。 33 杜淦堃資深大律師:所以我哋知道你2022 年版個守則,其實講咗話呢啲電纜係要用防火電 34 纜嘅,但係對於一啲舊啲嘅樓宇就可能冇呢個要求,係咪? 35 姜世明先生:同意,或者個要求唔同,唔。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十天

28 本謄本由Epiq 編製 杜淦堃資深大律師:如果係咁嘅話,針對一啲舊嘅樓宇,如果佢呢啲系統比較舊,佢個火警 1 警報系統失效嘅可能性喺一個火災裏面係會高啲嘅相信,咁樣推斷啱唔啱? 2 姜世明先生:同意。 3 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁針對一啲舊啲嘅樓宇,如果佢個火警警報系統係冇一啲新樓宇咁先進 4 或者咁安全嘅話,你哋會唔會有啲措施係會去針對呢啲嘅情況? 5 姜世明先生:事實上,我哋係有好幾條法例係將一啲較為舊嘅樓宇係做一啲樓宇改善,會係 6 有啲連同屋宇署,無論係個消防安全嘅建造方面,同一啲消防系統方面,都係有一 7 個法例呢,係就住某個年期嘅樓就要求佢加以提升。咁... 8 杜淦堃資深大律師:如果我問你--唔好思,打斷你,即係因為想快少少,就針對火警警報系 9 統,有冇呢? 10 姜世明先生:有嘅。 11 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔,咁嗰個要求係點樣樣?即係針對舊樓宇嘅火警警報系統,可唔可以 12 解一解釋畀我哋聽? 13 姜世明先生:我未必可以完全講,但係我起碼我可以講到個電掣方面。 14 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔。 15 姜世明先生:個掣嗰方面個要--簡單嚟講,嗰幾條法例呢,都係對佢哋要求係跟進落去一個 16 叫做起碼94 年版本嘅(English Spoken),因為有啲80 年代嘅樓係有個樓宇 17 改善,喺個消防設備方面佢會跟進去到94 年版本嗰個作業守則。亦都有一啲其他 18 嘅規定嘅,我呢度唔可以盡錄住。 19 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想問下你,你講嗰個電掣係咪就係嗰個break glass 嗰個掣,定係 20 另外一個掣嚟㗎? 21 姜世明先生:我講嗰個係個供電嗰度,但係我印象中供電嗰個要求就係去到94 年嗰個版 22 本,詳細整套系統,80 年代同94 年版本嘅仔細分別,呢個我未能盡錄畀你住。 23 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想問你就今次嘅事件,因為我哋知道有可能係個火警警報系統都會受 24 到大火影響。就呢方面,就啲舊樓宇嘅火警警報系統,可能有一套舊啲嘅系統,你 25 哋會唔會覺得現行規例或者未必追得上而家嘅要求?有冇修改嘅地方? 26 姜世明先生:舊嘅系統係要提升就--如果好舊,87 年前落成嘅樓係,事實上我哋現時亦都 27 係就住呢啲舊樓嘅提升係引入咗啲措施,就係用一個較為高新啲嘅科技,叫做物聯 28 網式嘅一啲叫做火警偵測等等嘅一啲裝置喺啲舊樓,你可能見到唐樓六層高等等, 29 係有呢方面嘅工作做緊,並且現時係處於一個接近初始嘅階段。 30 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔,呢個係大火之後引入定之前引入? 31 姜世明先生:之前已經引入㗎嘞,即係呢個試驗驗嘅情況係之前已經開始緊,工作開展咗㗎 32 嘞。 33 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想之後你幫一幫我,就係入咗嗰啲表格之後嘅情況,因為我哋知道, 34 我哋都講咗幾日,入嘅表格我哋講嚟講去最主要係嗰個shutdown notice 同埋 35 FS251。你喺第一份證人陳述書5.4.2 段就提到,消防處主要用呢啲係去監察註 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十天

29 本謄本由Epiq 編製 冊承辦商嘅工作,用呢啲嘅notice。而最主要嘅其中一份,最緊要嘅一份表格就 1 係當然係呢份FS251,因為佢檢查完之後佢要入番呢一份form 嘅。 2 姜世明先生:係。 3 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢份form 似乎我哋show--即係而家見到嘅證據就係話,佢要喺十四 4 日之內,檢查咗之後就要入番嚟講明就係話個系統正常運作或者如果有問題嘅話, 5 佢要點去處理。 6 姜世明先生:唔。 7 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想問下你嘅,就係你哋收到呢份form 之後嘅程序。 8 姜世明先生:好。 9 杜淦堃資深大律師:因為你第一份供詞5.4.2 段,我哋就見到消防處就會收到FS251 之後 10 會進行三個步驟嘅,第一個似乎就係文件嘅審查。 11 姜世明先生:係。 12 杜淦堃資深大律師:第二個就核實嘅巡查。第三個叫做功能測試,即係你呢度講嘅 13 (English Spoken)同埋(English Spoken)。 14 姜世明先生:係。 15 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢個係你哋一般嘅程序,係咪? 16 姜世明先生:唔係三個連續嘅步驟,係三種唔同嘅工作。 17 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,即係所以係你哋未必一定做晒呢三個。 18 姜世明先生:冇錯,係嘞。 19 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係呢三個工作呢,視乎佢入份form 嘅情況,你哋係會做嘅? 20 姜世明先生:係,冇錯。 21 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔。所謂文件審查第一步喇,即係其實聽你頭先咁講,呢啲都係一啲紙 22 本嘅文件嚟嘅入嚟? 23 姜世明先生:係。 24 杜淦堃資深大律師:你有啲同事就會喺辦公室裏去睇下嗰個文件個完整性,佢填嘅資料係咪 25 妥當,可唔可以咁講? 26 姜世明先生:正確。 27 杜淦堃資深大律師:係每一份都會睇嘅,係咪? 28 姜世明先生:我哋會抽取每年三十萬證書裏嘅一萬五千份。 29 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔,即係換句話講就抽樣去調查呢啲證書準唔準確呢,就係你頭先嗰個 30 數目嘞,唔係份份都睇嘅? 31 姜世明先生:唔係份份都睇嘅。 32 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔。 33 姜世明先生:並且補充少少,佢即係睇其中一個,舉一個例子,例如承辦商會分級別,咁例 34 如你第一級嘅承辦商,你張證書裏面做咗啲第二級做嘅嘢,咁其實我睇就已經知道 35 係出問題。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十天

30 本謄本由Epiq 編製 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢個就明顯--你講嗰個例子就明顯唔妥,但係即係根據你頭先嘅解釋, 1 即係呢啲表面上高妥唔妥嘅問題,就喺三十萬份入嘅表格裏面你哋會用肉眼去睇一 2 萬五千份? 3 姜世明先生:同意。 4 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想問下你哋係咪會抽樣去檢查啲註冊承辦商佢自己存檔嗰啲FS251? 5 姜世明先生:因為佢嘅FS251,根據法例佢係要畀我哋嘅,所以我哋就有我呢三種類別嘅抽 6 查,而我哋抽查或者調查嘅其中一個好重要嘅文檔就係FS251。 7 杜淦堃資深大律師:點解我咁問你?因為鍾傑文先生佢提到佢哋幾年裏面都未試過有消防處 8 去抽查佢哋年檢嗰啲核對表,佢呢個講法係咪就係因為佢都sent 咗一份畀你哋 9 嘞,所以你唔使去查番佢哋自己嗰一份? 10 姜世明先生:係,係。呢度補充少少,佢講緊嗰樣核對表呢,就通函裏冇要求佢遞交畀我 11 哋,但係我要求佢哋存檔七年。頭先話佢冇必要畀我哋一個副本嘅就係FS251 嗰 12 本消防證書,大致就係咁。 13 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁我想搞清楚就係FS251 係要畀你哋存檔㗎嘛,即係要交畀你哋? 14 姜世明先生:要交畀我哋,副本要交畀我哋。 15 杜淦堃資深大律師:係嘞,咁佢講話冇需存檔,佢自己只需要有個紀錄嘅,嗰一份係乜嘢? 16 姜世明先生:年檢核對表。 17 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,佢嘅年檢核對表,佢就話你哋冇抽查過,但係其實你哋係會抽樣咁 18 去調查呢啲年檢核對表,係咪? 19 姜世明先生:會。 20 杜淦堃資深大律師:只不過咁啱Victory Fire 就冇被抽中,查唔到,可唔可以咁講? 21 姜世明先生:正確,正確。 22 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁呢啲年檢核對表嘅調查,你哋講唔講到畀委員會聽你哋係做幾多嘅 23 呢? 24 姜世明先生:約係三百個個案喥。 25 杜淦堃資深大律師:每年? 26 姜世明先生:一年,係。 27 杜淦堃資深大律師:你頭先提到註冊呢啲消防裝置承辦商大概有千多人,係咪? 28 姜世明先生:一千多少少。係嘞 29 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔,所以你嘅證供就係每年大概如果係咁講,有三分一你哋會去睇,係 30 咪咁講?係咪三百個... 31 姜世明先生:因為--話睇三百個個案係三百個核對表。 32 杜淦堃資深大律師:三百個核對表,所以如果你去到其中一個承辦商嗰度,佢可能有三十宗 33 嘅,即係就斷個案計,唔係斷承辦商計嘞? 34 姜世明先生:正確,正確。 35 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係換句話講,如果我冇計錯數嘅,如果係百分比嚟講,你抽查核對表 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十天

31 本謄本由Epiq 編製 個個案吨百分比會係幾多?因為每年有三十萬份呢啲嘅表格交上嚟喇。 1 姜世明先生:係。 2 杜淦堃資深大律師:你哋係會去睇三百幾個個案,呢個講法會唔會唔準確?我想你解一解畀 3 我哋聽。 4 姜世明先生:因為三十萬份證書唔係全部都係年檢嚟,咁年檢就有年檢核對表。 5 杜淦堃資深大律師:每年有幾多個--全香港要做幾多個年檢,應該同我哋有幾多個註冊承辦 6 商同埋有幾多棟大廈需要做年檢有關係,係咪? 7 姜世明先生:同意,係。 8 杜淦堃資深大律師:每年做幾多年檢呀香港? 9 姜世明先生:香港應該有六萬堂大廈喥喇。 10 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔。每一棟都需要做年檢㗎,係咪? 11 姜世明先生:正確,唔。 12 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係如果咁講嘅話,就即係喺呢六萬棟大廈裏面,每年你哋會抽樣睇三 13 百個年檢嘅個案? 14 姜世明先生:淨係核准表呢件事,係。 15 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔,大概0.5%? 16 姜世明先生:喺核對表上係,但係個分子分母--即係核對表,因為我有其他嘅工作,係。 17 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白,我唔係話你,即係呢個係--呢個分子分母就反映咗你哋全部嘅工 18 作。 19 姜世明先生:唔,冇錯。 20 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係就核對表似乎就係咁嘞,係咪? 21 姜世明先生:唔。 22 杜淦堃資深大律師:好嘞,另外我想問下你,另外嗰啲審查(English Spoken),呢兩 23 個都係要實地巡查呢兩個工作,可唔可以咁講? 24 姜世明先生:正確。 25 杜淦堃資深大律師:可唔可以解釋畀我聽係包括咩嘢程序呢? 26 姜世明先生:可以,我可以,但係我可唔可以補充埋(English Spoken)其實都唔止。 27 杜淦堃資深大律師:得,你講。 28 姜世明先生:係。咁剛才我講你入份證書畀我,我會抽一萬五千份。此外,嗰三十萬證書裏 29 面其實有兩萬份係關於一啲持牌處所、餐廳食肆、酒店賓館、危險倉等等。咁嗰啲 30 因為要同我哋續牌,或者係申請牌照呢,我哋都係份份都有所跟進。此外,三十萬 31 份證書裏面約有每年三萬份,佢會喺個證書嘅第三部分係寫咗有一啲損壞事項,咁 32 呢三萬份損壞事項我哋都有所跟進,咁呢個我將會歸落去我呢個(English 33 Spoken)呢個類別。 34 杜淦堃資深大律師:多謝你,我想問你嘅就係頭先條問題其實係講緊另外兩種嘅功能。 35 姜世明先生:好。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十天

32 本謄本由Epiq 編製 杜淦堃資深大律師:就係個(English Spoken )個核實巡查,同埋嗰個功能測試 1 (English Spoken)。 2 姜世明先生:好。 3 杜淦堃資深大律師:可唔可以解到畀我哋聽其實做咩嘢? 4 姜世明先生:好,我哋喺第二部分(English Spoken)係包含幾個部分,第一,我哋每 5 年大概係收到三千宗關於呢個消防設備嘅投訴,去處理呢個投訴,除咗去落場睇究 6 竟個事情係點,我哋都會睇番佢嘅證書,係加以去互相比對,了解發生咩嘢事,咁 7 呢度係三千。 8 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢個係投訴? 9 姜世明先生:係,關於消防設備嘅。此外,剛才我講,我哋每年收到三萬份係有呢個損壞事 10 項嘅證書,咁呢三萬份嘅損壞證書,我哋會有所跟進,而其中一個跟進嘅方式就係 11 落去實地去審視,咁呢度有大概二千個。此外,我哋都會有每年係隨機抽樣一萬套 12 系統,隨機嘅,就係去睇睇佢嘅實況係咪出問題。最後就係就住承辦商,我哋有個 13 違例記分制,就住一啲違例記分裏面係有分數嘅承辦商,我哋係會抽樣一千個巡 14 查。咁呢個就係歸落去(English Spoken)呢個欄目。 15 咁我講埋(English Spoken ),我哋(English Spoken )就包含咩嘢 16 呢?其實我哋當前線同事係收到火警嘅無論誤鳴又好或者係--實情係有火都好呢, 17 我哋都會去--唔少嘅情況係會使用個消防設備,咁佢消防設備去使用嘅時間,就算 18 佢係咪真係需救火都好都會使用,而佢使用嘅時候都係會有個某程度上嘅測試,呢 19 度一年約係二千個。此外,我哋都因應剛才我講違例記分制上面,有分數較為高嘅 20 承辦商,我哋會約大廈嘅業主做一啲功能性測試,呢度一年約為八十多個。呢個係- 21 -第三部分,我想有少少補充,去到功能性測試嗰個就係可以話係睇得係最深入嘅, 22 去了解到套系統情況係點,大致上我呢三樣嘢。 23 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想你幫一幫我,就係如果你睇番你第一份證人陳述書第5.4.2 段, 24 最屘嗰部分,你呢度講咗話如果嗰啲證書係冇(English Spoken),表面上高 25 冇問題,你話消防處(English Spoken ),嗰啲消防局就會(English 26 Spoken)(有關嘅消防局係會每年去進行一啲檢查嘅。) 27 姜世明先生:係。 28 杜淦堃資深大律師:我畀你畀個概念我哋,呢度講相當數量(English Spoken),會唔 29 有個具體嘅數字? 30 姜世明先生:就係頭先我講(English Spoken)第二部分嗰一萬個巡查。 31 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔。就宏福苑而言,如果我哋睇番呢一個個案,喺2025 年3 月31 32 日,即係火警前嘅幾個月,Victory Fire 就為屋苑八座提交咗FS251 證書嘅, 33 咁我哋可以--嗰啲證書我哋喺B2/1440 嗰度,我哋可以睇到其中一份,如果你睇 34 番。呢個係宏仁閣,你見到。 35 姜世明先生:係。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十天

33 本謄本由Epiq 編製 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋見到,我想你幫一幫我哋,我哋留意到表格嘅右下角,嗰度有三個 1 格仔寫住(English Spoken),請問你呢三個框代表咗乜嘢?同埋你哋幾時會 2 去填番佢哋? 3 姜世明先生:呢三個格仔就一如字面所講,就係巡查咗,將佢輸入系統,同埋核對過。就係 4 當我哋做咗呢三樣嘢就會填番呢三樣嘢。 5 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係所以據你頭先所講,因為你哋只係會抽樣去睇,所以好多時可能係 6 呢三個空格最屘都唔會填嘅,因為抽唔中就冇(English Spoken)。 7 姜世明先生:正確。 8 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係冇人去睇過喇? 9 姜世明先生:正確。 10 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔嗯。但係你哋收到呢個FS251,會喺你哋個中央電腦資料庫裏面記錄 11 低嘅,係咪? 12 姜世明先生:正確。 13 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係呢個一定會發生喇,嗰個系統叫做(English Spoken) 14 姜世明先生:係,定搵人輸入落去㗎都要。 15 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係係人手打入去? 16 姜世明先生:人手輸入落去。 17 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁我想問下你,係咪每一份都係嗰--咁多份FS251 都係會搵人打落去 18 嘅? 19 姜世明先生:我想少少補充,因為佢有兩種遞交嘅方法,一個係電子版,不過為數唔多,係 20 大概5%喥。 21 杜淦堃資深大律師:95%都係紙版。 22 姜世明先生:紙版。 23 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁嗰95%都要搵人打入去個系統度? 24 姜世明先生:咁我哋係有啲(English Spoken)係真係打入去嘅。 25 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁嗰個(English Spoken)--即係有人會睇過嗰份form 嘅,但係 26 嗰個人睇完之後,佢個工作只係(English Spoken),佢就唔會check 下嗰份 27 form 嗰個完整性或者係咪填得啱嘅,可唔可以咁講?因為聽你咁講係萬幾份係抽 28 樣睇㗎咋嘛? 29 姜世明先生:同意,佢係輸入嘅。 30 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係兩個工作嚟嘅? 31 姜世明先生:冇錯,係。 32 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋如果睇番嗰個系統紀錄,你去B2/1599,呢個就係喺系統裏面你哋 33 一啲(English Spoken),即係負責輸入資料嘅人士輸入嘅紀錄嚟嘅,咁講啱 34 唔啱? 35 姜世明先生:呢個就唔係我所講嘅(English Spoken),呢個係一啲同事去巡查或者去 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十天

34 本謄本由Epiq 編製 檢視佢嘅工作嘅一啲紀錄。 1 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白。呢度裏面有一啲情況係咁,但係如果遞交咗FS251 而冇跟進嘅 2 行動,喺呢度都應該會睇到,呢個就係我哋頭先講嗰個系統嚟嘅,係咪?定係呢個 3 係另外一樣嘢嚟? 4 姜世明先生:呢個系統就正正--剛才你講,我哋叫(English Spoken),L 字頭嗰個, 5 即係電腦系統嘅同事去做工作嘅,去記錄佢嘅工作嘅系統。 6 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係(English Spoken)入都係入呢個系統㗎嘛,係咪? 7 姜世明先生:正確,係。 8 杜淦堃資深大律師:好。我哋睇番就呢個宏泰閣嘅紀錄,喺--如果你睇番呢度1399 項大概 9 下低少少,落去。我哋見到呢度就話「2025 年8 月12 號從物業管理公司黎生親 10 手接到FS251,咁兩份已上存(English Spoken)848 內」,呢個就係有人收 11 咗一份紙版嘅,我記錄番收咗,係咪咁? 12 姜世明先生:係,冇錯。 13 杜淦堃資深大律師:如果我哋睇1429,即係再上高少少嘅紀錄。當中嘅紀錄就話,係咁講 14 嘅,佢就話「上址已有新年檢嘅證書,有個編號,損壞項目已由新年檢(English 15 Spoken)1709543 跟進中,請參考(English Spoken)」。 16 姜世明先生:係。 17 杜淦堃資深大律師:當中嗰句“(English Spoken)”呢一句係咪就係話消防處喺8 月 18 12 號就由佢--黎先生提交嘅文件裏面進行咗一啲文件嘅審核,但係冇做實地嘅審 19 核,可唔可以咁理解? 20 姜世明先生:可以。 21 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋喺呢啲文件同埋紀錄裏面睇到,似乎2025 年3 月年度檢查之後, 22 消防處就冇去到宏福苑八座大廈做過我哋頭先講嗰啲(English Spoken)或者 23 (English Spoken)嘅,因為抽唔到佢哋,所以就冇做過,咁講啱唔啱? 24 姜世明先生:冇做(English Spoken),但係就住宏泰嘅年檢,實在係喺宏仁、宏新, 25 即係A、C、E 座係都有一啲巡查做過。 26 杜淦堃資深大律師:嗰啲巡查似乎係一啲另外嘅巡查,即係唔係收到--我哋見到呢度呢個紀 27 錄,我哋就睇番呢一個我哋而家睇嘅討論文件,裏面就冇講過就呢棟大廈去做過一 28 啲實地嘅巡查,如果有會寫出嚟嘅,可唔可以咁講? 29 姜世明先生:可以。 30 杜淦堃資深大律師:係。 31 姜世明先生:但係我想少少補充,就係因為係正如我口供裏面講,喺大維修直至到大火發生 32 時,係就住宏泰嘅巡查,我都係記咗喺我證供裏面,即係我想向你即係講番就係, 33 宏泰嘅消防嘅年檢所搵咗出嚟嘅事幹,咁我哋係有唔同嘅工作做咗。 34 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白,我唔係話你... 35 姜世明先生:但係我唔知係咪對應番--你講。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十天

35 本謄本由Epiq 編製 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,我唔係話你完全冇去過。我諗我想講嗰個point 就話,如果--喺 1 你個系統度,你哋如果就收到FS251 之後,有啲跟進嘅行動,包括實地嘅巡查, 2 應該喺呢度會有一個詳盡嘅紀錄? 3 姜世明先生:係,冇錯,係。 4 杜淦堃資深大律師:另外我想問下你嘅,我哋呢個理解啱唔啱?註冊承辦商年檢嗰個結果, 5 嗰個清單,有個(English Spoken),係咪?嗰個就我哋頭先似乎你嘅證供就 6 提,嗰個就唔使一齊交上嚟畀消防處嘅,佢keep 住就得㗎嘞,係咪? 7 姜世明先生:正確。 8 杜淦堃資深大律師:如果呢個清單同佢交上嚟有出入,呢一個就要靠你哋真係去嗰個承辦商 9 嗰度去睇嗰份清單,至會check 到,即係你頭先所講,每年嗰--去check 佢哋 10 嗰啲個案裏面先睇到,係咪? 11 姜世明先生:承辦商表現有問題,用清單嚟check 到係一個方法,亦都有其他方法。 12 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔係,我只係問你,如果個清單同個FS251 有分別,呢一個冇其他辦 13 法知嘅,你淨係落去個承辦商嗰度(English Spoken)佢至睇到? 14 姜世明先生:正確。 15 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想問下你一啲關於突擊檢查嘅問題,如果我哋睇B3/1451,因為我哋 16 見到呢一項1333 裏面,1451 頁嘅頂,B3--sorry,B2,tab B3,Bundle 17 B2,你見到1333 項。 18 姜世明先生:係。 19 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢度我哋見到“(English Spoken)”,呢個似乎係因為一份SDN 20 而作出嘅,如果我哋睇番呢個紀錄。我想問下你對於呢啲-- 呢度所指嘅 21 (English Spoken),首先嗰個係基於咩嘢基準或者咩嘢機制去做? 22 姜世明先生:我要睇番落少少,嗄。 23 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔,好。 24 姜世明先生:我睇呢個紀錄見到個(English Spoken)係由一個ADO,佢係一個主管級 25 嘅同事嚟嘅。我從呢個紀錄裏面,我看來就係佢做緊一啲佢去衡量自己同事做工作 26 做成點嘅一啲(English Spoken)嚟嘅。 27 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁呢啲(English Spoken)除咗衡量同事嘅工作做成點,仲會喺咩 28 嘢情況之下進行? 29 姜世明先生:如果係佢呢個職級,就主要係頭先我講嗰個原因。 30 杜淦堃資深大律師:如果唔係淨係呢個職級?即係我想了解一下就喺咩嘢情況之下,你哋會 31 就咁做一個(English Spoken)? 32 姜世明先生:收到關於消防設備嘅投訴。 33 杜淦堃資深大律師:如果冇人就消防設備進行投訴,會唔會做(English Spoken)? 34 姜世明先生:我哋--正如我頭先喺嗰個(English Spoken),嗰一萬個嘅個案做巡查係 35 (English Spoken)。此外,嗰二千個因應住證書第三部分有損壞而引申嘅巡 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十天

36 本謄本由Epiq 編製 查,係亦都係冇經通報嘅突擊巡查。咁火警危險投訴,呢個你話唔使提,都係突 1 擊,此外就有一千個嘅關於(English Spoken),即係話違例記分制嘅,都係 2 突擊嘅。 3 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢啲你喺第四份證人供詞第4 段其實有提過,其實基於一啲主動投訴-- 4 投訴主導嘅調查,你哋如果事前就通知咗相關人士可能會損害嗰個調查嘅完整性同 5 埋削弱執法嗰個公平性,所以你哋就唔會通知嘅? 6 姜世明先生:唔會嘅。 7 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,呢方面其實我想問(English Spoken)嘅調查係咪一定唔會通 8 知,定係都係有啲係通知,一啲唔通知? 9 姜世明先生:如果係功能--涉及需要做到功能性測試,就往往都需要通知。 10 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,因為你要搵埋個承辦商嚟一齊做? 11 姜世明先生:同埋要同大廈方面有個通報,因為啲警鐘會令到居民恐慌等等,要事先提醒啲 12 住客同埋用戶。 13 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白。即係如果我好籠統咁講啱唔啱?如果我就咁譬如去check 個消 14 防栓同埋喉轆系統,呢一個需唔需要通知? 15 姜世明先生:如果佢唔係功能性測試嘅,就咁話要去收到投訴,去了解發生咩嘢事,唔需要 16 通知嘅。 17 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係如果要測試佢譬如係咪仲係用到嘅話,呢個就要通知? 18 姜世明先生:係,因為會響咗警鐘會嚇嚫人。 19 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係--呢個係一個明顯嘅例子,因為你會嚇嚫啲居民。但係除咗呢一個 20 之外,有冇其他你又係要通知嘅? 21 姜世明先生:都有,例如你--例如火警警報系統。 22 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,我明,因為呢個又係嚇親人吖嘛。 23 姜世明先生:係,火警偵測系統,即係你而家望上頭頂有個白色嗰個叫偵測器,佢有時都係 24 會嚇嚫人,另外仲有一啲例如係--嗰個嘢響咗嘅話會響鐘,即係歸落去嚇嚫人。咁 25 有一啲系統佢可能會出水,消防栓喉轆大家聆訊裏面熟啲,有啲嘅自動灑水系統, 26 如果同佢做功能性測試,都會有啲水嘅情況,咁水我哋都會管理公司等等要有啲準 27 備,搞不好會浸壞一啲嘢,亦都會𨃩嚫人,所以都要加以同佢協商。 28 杜淦堃資深大律師:就宏福苑而言,你第二份證人供詞第5 段裏面,提到所有消防處喺 29 2024 年7 月到2025 年11 月期間巡查嘅調查或者巡查,都係冇事先通知嘅,係 30 咪? 31 姜世明先生:佢就住呢個關閉嗰個通知上面做一啲視察,嗰個視察我哋有同承辦商電話了解 32 咗先至落場嘅,咁呢個我睇下你點歸類係算唔算通知,因為我係會同佢有個電話了 33 解,係。 34 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,你同佢有個電話了解情況。但係落場去睇嘅時候都係冇通知? 35 姜世明先生:冇通知嘅,係。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十天

37 本謄本由Epiq 編製 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢個就唔算同投訴有關嘅調查,係咪?呢啲。 1 姜世明先生:唔算。 2 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋想問一問嘅,就我哋而家知道,或者大家特別關注嘅就係大型樓宇 3 嘅維修有相關嘅消防風險。 4 姜世明先生:係。 5 杜淦堃資深大律師:受大型樓宇維修呢一方面,承辦商亦都未必會配合巡查,就大型大廈樓 6 宇維修,你哋嘅突擊檢查有冇特別嘅政策?會唔會做得特別多或者特別多突擊嘅檢 7 查?呢個都係我哋想知嘅。 8 姜世明先生:冇呢個因為大維修而做嘅特別多嘅突擊檢查,因為--唔。 9 杜淦堃資深大律師:我諗你頭先就(English Spoken)咗你話特別多,或者我哋咁樣講 10 啱唔啱?會唔會因為好似宏福苑嘅例子,我哋知道八棟大廈都一齊做緊維修,我哋 11 知道嗰個火警風險係高咗嘅。而公道咁講,我哋知道係因為大型樓宇維修,消防處 12 係有啲措施嘅,譬如我哋講咗話火警當日你哋係派多咗消防員。 13 姜世明先生:係。 14 杜淦堃資深大律師:同埋嗰個設備儀器都唔同,但係我哋唔好講火警當日,就巡查方面,咁 15 講啱唔啱?似乎現有嘅政策就唔會因為做緊大維修會多--會有--因為做大維修,而 16 所以衍生咗一啲突擊檢查,咁講啱唔啱? 17 姜世明先生:火災後有,我之後再補充。喺火災之前,就以宏福苑,冇一個--你講嘅係正 18 確,但係少少補充就係,我知道當區嘅同事係為咗呢個大維修係都做咗一個預案, 19 因為佢大維修,所以佢亦都有去視察過。 20 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白,你提到嗰個預案,係似乎就係因為如果有大維修,個火警風險提 21 高,如果需要救火嘅話有啲唔同嘅措施嘅? 22 姜世明先生:係,例如加多少少消防車。 23 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,加消防車,或者大家可能已經有圖則,即係你知道嗰個大廈嘅情 24 況,係咪咁樣樣? 25 姜世明先生:我淨係喺加多啲消防車嗰度畀到資料,即係嗰個應變計劃嘅其他細項,我暫時 26 畀唔到資料,但係起碼加咗消防車。 27 杜淦堃資深大律師:喺應變計畫以外,喺防止火警風險呢個範疇,似乎喺大火之前就冇一個 28 政策,就話因為做緊大型樓宇維修,要因為咁樣樣去做一啲嘅突擊調查或者加強巡 29 查? 30 姜世明先生:同意。 31 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁講啱? 32 姜世明先生:同意。 33 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白。而呢一方面會唔會係你哋都喺大火之後覺得需要有改善嘅地方? 34 姜世明先生:同意,所以我都想補充少少。 35 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,我請你補充。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十天

38 本謄本由Epiq 編製 姜世明先生:係,事實上喺大火之後,我自己都親自主持咗好多個會議,係聯繫咗一啲管理 1 業界,亦都同屋宇署同埋房屋署就攞咗一啲大維修嘅列表,為數係達到五百堂大 2 廈。咁我哋其中有個我哋聯繫管理業界一個好重要嘅一個信息就係話,其實你執行 3 大維修前,係應該先將--如果你啲消防設備係出問題要修葺、修理,係修理好先, 4 你先至讓個大維修係繼續。咁呢方面嘅工作我哋係已經完成咗,今天嘅五百堂,現 5 今我哋理解為要掛網做大維修嘅大廈,我哋已經全數巡查,當中有啲有問題嘅消防 6 設備我哋都已經係去處理咗、跟進咗,並且整番好。咁而呢方面嘅工作亦都唔係 7 (English Spoken)嘅,咁我哋已經係同跨部門咁樣,喺今後所有嘅有大維修 8 嘅樓嘅(English Spoken)你畀到我,我都會用同樣嘅方針去處理,咁呢個係 9 少少補充。 10 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想問下你嘅就係,明顯地因為大維修,知道有可能一啲平時冇嘅火警 11 風險,先至會有一啲應變嘅政策,例如你頭先講到,譬如佢哋去睇咗個情況,當有 12 火警嘅時候,你哋會派多啲消防員,派多啲裝備去,所以其實消防處一路都係知道 13 大維修會引申咗一啲平時冇嘅火警風險,咁講啱唔啱? 14 姜世明先生:喺呢個個案,當區消防局做咗呢個步驟。 15 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔係,我諗我重複一次我個問題,睇下你答唔答到我?消防處一定知道 16 因為做大型嘅樓宇維修會有一啲平時冇嘅火警風險,例如講得好坦白就係棚網、外 17 牆著火,呢啲係大維修明顯會有嘅風險,係咪? 18 姜世明先生:唔完全同意嘅,因為棚網都有分合規、唔合規。 19 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白,我哋都要探討呢啲問題。 20 姜世明先生:冇錯。 21 杜淦堃資深大律師:我只係想你幫助我哋嘅就係,大家都知道其實即係呢個火警之前,棚網 22 或者竹棚著火呢件事唔係新鮮嘅事,冇耐之前先發生過? 23 姜世明先生:係,唔。 24 杜淦堃資深大律師:而點解有個政策話要去睇下發生火警嘅時候個裝備唔一樣,呢個都係因 25 為大維修嘅緣故,係咪? 26 姜世明先生:係,但係都唔單係大維修,因為事實上一間消防局佢喺個區裏面見到唔同嘅實 27 況,要做啲唔同嘅應變,都係普遍。 28 杜淦堃資深大律師:我唔係話你同事喺第二啲情況之下冇做嘢。 29 姜世明先生:係,冇錯。 30 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係就宏福苑嚟講,用番呢個例子。 31 姜世明先生:冇錯。 32 杜淦堃資深大律師:就係正正係因為佢做大維修,所以當區嘅消防局先要去探討下,一旦有 33 火警,我哋要派多啲人,派多啲車去吖嘛? 34 姜世明先生:同意,同意。 35 杜淦堃資深大律師:所以換句話講,大家都明白其實喺大維修嘅時候,嗰個火警個風險比平 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十天

39 本謄本由Epiq 編製 時應該係會高咗嘅,同唔同意? 1 姜世明先生:同事去做應變係因為佢喺唔同地方都會做應變,佢未必一定係得到個判斷佢係 2 高咗,但係佢會去做--為佢嘅應變而做部署。 3 杜淦堃資深大律師:你個答案冇錯,但係我想你嘗試答我個問題,我個問題其實係想問下你 4 同唔同意,因為做大型樓宇維修,相對火警嘅風險應該係高咗?有啲平時冇嘅風險 5 會出現咗,同意定唔同意? 6 姜世明先生:同意,但係有補充。 7 杜淦堃資深大律師:你補充吖。 8 姜世明先生:同意係因為佢有呢個可能。 9 杜淦堃資深大律師:講緊風險就一定講緊可能喇,阿Sir,係咪? 10 姜世明先生:我舉個例子,因為人多同埋物料多咗,係會引申頭先你講嗰個情況。 11 杜淦堃資深大律師:冇錯,我哋都唔係今日先知道可能有工人食煙,係咪? 12 姜世明先生:同意。 13 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋唔係今日先知道喺個大廈外牆度有好多平時冇嘅物料,而當然有唔 14 同嘅情況,呢啲物料可能係燒得著㗎喇,係咪? 15 姜世明先生:同意,係。 16 杜淦堃資深大律師:而都係因為呢啲理由,所以喺大火之前,你哋啲同事要去真係去考察 17 下,萬一著火,我係咪應該派多啲人、派多啲車去? 18 姜世明先生:同意。 19 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁基於你同意有啲平時冇嘅風險,我想問下你就係,你哋咁多年,亦都 20 相信有經驗就係地盤著火或者竹棚著火,係咪? 21 姜世明先生:係。 22 杜淦堃資深大律師:點解咁多年都冇提高嗰個就大維修做嘅突擊巡查?講唔講到? 23 姜世明先生:事實上一間消防局係就住區內嘅唔同情況都有做地區熟悉巡視,去了解唔同地 24 方一旦發生火警佢嘅部署,以宏福苑嚟講,同事都有去做。 25 杜淦堃資深大律師:我明白。 26 姜世明先生:係。 27 杜淦堃資深大律師:亦都我唔係批評佢哋去做咗呢一啲嘅巡查,去應變萬一有火警嘅時候所 28 要面對嘅問題。 29 姜世明先生:係。 30 杜淦堃資深大律師:因為可能個撲救困難咗,我哋見到。 31 姜世明先生:係。 32 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想問嘅就係,點解知道個風險高咗,而冇相應嘅措施係去加強個巡 33 查,或者做多啲突擊嘅巡查?因為你頭先講咗畀我聽,唔會因為做大型樓宇維修做 34 突擊巡查㗎嘛,係咪? 35 姜世明先生:係。呢方面喺火後我哋已經係有計劃做咗,並且係已經係執行咗,有啲行動係 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十天

40 本謄本由Epiq 編製 就住一啲維修嘅大廈,並且將來繼續做維修嘅話,我哋係會加強。 1 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白。我想跟住同你探討就係嗰個消防裝置系統嗰個關閉嘅監管。 2 姜世明先生:唔,好。 3 杜淦堃資深大律師:我知道而家你哋諗緊嘅就係完全另一套嘅計劃? 4 姜世明先生:係。 5 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,即係而家係要想考慮審批,唔係淨係通報? 6 姜世明先生:唔。 7 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁我哋知道,講緊現有嘅規矩,你要停多過二十四小時就有程序、要通 8 報,咁而有關嘅最重要嘅文件應該就係2021 年嘅第一號通函,講出咗個SDN 嘅重 9 要性,係咪咁? 10 姜世明先生:同意。 11 杜淦堃資深大律師:而嗰個SDN 嘅重要性就包括,如果我哋睇番Bundle B2/1302 頁, 12 講出咗第二段,基本上呢度講咗喺個處所裏面裝置呢啲消防措施嘅目標,我哋好明 13 顯睇到嘅就係話,為咗喺火警發生嘅時候保障市民生命財產,呢度亦都講咗如果裝 14 置失效就可能會違法條例。所以為免出現呢啲情況,你哋亦都有相關嘅責任係佢哋 15 去處理㗎嘞,而其中一個責任就要儘快通知消防處? 16 姜世明先生:係。 17 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢度講咗消防處其實必須及時去獲悉,而等你哋可以制訂應變嘅安排, 18 同埋要求業主可能採取一啲額外嘅措施。因為你收到個SDN 你先知道啲嘢停吖嘛, 19 咁就你就可以諗下點應變? 20 姜世明先生:係。 21 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁正如你所講,可能有啲措施,例如我哋呢度見到加咗啲滅火筒,或者 22 你哋消防局知道佢停咗,可能火災嘅時候會有啲措施? 23 姜世明先生:係,冇錯。 24 杜淦堃資深大律師:你第一份證人陳述書就講到有個叫做消防通訊中心嘅,FSCC,係咪? 25 姜世明先生:係。 26 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢個係為接受SDN 嘅指定聯絡點嚟嘅。 27 姜世明先生:同意。 28 杜淦堃資深大律師:而FSCC 收到一份SDN 之後,操作人員其實個步驟,你喺個陳述書嗰度 29 亦都講咗嘅,第8.2 段,第一份證人陳述書。呢度就講到其實佢哋會更新嗰個調派 30 系統(English Spoken),可唔可以解一解畀我哋聽呢個係點運作,同埋個目 31 的係點? 32 姜世明先生:係,就住一宗火警,我哋呢個消防通訊中心係有個既定出動規模,即係話呢個 33 地點一旦發生呢個規模嘅火警,咁佢就唔係當時先再思考點樣調動幾多部車,而係 34 一早就(English Spoken)咗喺度。咁佢喺而家個運作就係話,如果收到一份 35 SDN,消防通訊中心如果係一旦係同一個地址發生火警,佢就會增派一啲消防資源 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十天

41 本謄本由Epiq 編製 落去,咁呢個就係我剛才講既定出動規模,收到SDN 之後,佢會加資源去做,一出 1 車就出埋佢咁解。 2 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁呢個系統有呢個資料之後,呢個點轉達到去當地嗰個消防局?係咪佢 3 哋都係有--當時就會收到相關嘅指令?直接。 4 姜世明先生:係,FSCC 佢個步驟係會係將相關嘅SDN 傳達畀當區消防局,此外,佢頭先嗰 5 個既定出動規模,咁一旦一去車,即係中call,有人報警,其實個消防局會喺佢 6 嘅消防車前面嘅一啲顯示板知道,係佢呢個地點原來就係有SDN 收咗嘅咁樣嘅,即 7 係話佢出動嘅同時,佢會知。 8 杜淦堃資深大律師:而你第一份證人供詞,我可以咁同你講,節省啲時間,你第6.3 同第 9 8.3 段似乎就提到,你哋收到SDN 之後嘅廿四小時內,當區嘅消防局會進行一次實 10 地風險評估,(English Spoken)。 11 姜世明先生:係,係。 12 杜淦堃資深大律師:就宏福苑嚟講,即係大埔區嘅消防局就必須喺收到呢個SDN 廿四小時之 13 內去到宏福苑? 14 姜世明先生:係。 15 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁呢個風險評估包括係做啲乜嘢?即係啲同事去到要睇啲乜嘢? 16 姜世明先生:由於個SDN 係剔咗個格話有一套系統係唔能夠運作,咁同事--因為佢係前線 17 滅火救援嘅同事,佢就要去做實地考察,佢考察目的就係呢套系統佢已知已經係不 18 能運作下,咁佢要做滅火救援,佢嘅部署係要點樣作應變,比喻說,佢要知道自己 19 架車輛擺位,令到同事係更加掌握,知道相關嘅水源,亦都要知道下佢嗰個地方會 20 唔會有啲特殊嘅情況,會唔會有安老院或者係等等嘅更加需要關注嘅地方,通通都 21 係為咗佢嘅行動部署而去做嘅工作。 22 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁可唔可以咁講?因為你收到SDN 停某一個系統,如果佢續期,你哋唔 23 會再去嘅,因為都係同一件事咋嘛,可唔可以咁講? 24 姜世明先生:同意。 25 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁呢個SDN 制度其實都係要倚賴嗰啲承辦商準時匯報,如果收唔到咁就 26 唔會做到呢個實地風險評估? 27 姜世明先生:同意。 28 杜淦堃資深大律師:如果一個承辦商好似而家咁樣樣,佢交個SDN 話停咗個消防水泵停咗, 29 個喉轆系統,但係實際上其實佢好似而家呢個case,停埋另外個火警警報系統, 30 同事去到睇唔睇到㗎? 31 姜世明先生:睇唔到。 32 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係換句話講,嗰個針對性就係針對佢遞交上嚟嘅資料去採取一啲應變 33 措施,至於佢遞交上嚟個資料係咪準確反映現場嘅情況,呢個似乎唔係巡查嗰個目 34 的? 35 姜世明先生:正確。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十天

42 本謄本由Epiq 編製 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁你個證人供詞第四份,其實16 段都有講咗呢樣嘢嘅,有時我講出嚟 1 係想畀大家知道,因為大家冇睇過你嘅證人供詞。 2 姜世明先生:係,唔該。 3 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁你話其實呢個case 裏面,中華發展提供咗個SDN,咁佢淨係停個消 4 防栓同喉轆系統,所以消防處喺2025 年9 月9 日打畀中華發展嘅梁秉基嘅時候, 5 都係淨係提及有關嘅事情啫,冇講到其他系統嘅,係咪? 6 姜世明先生:正確。 7 杜淦堃資深大律師:所以因為咁,其實消防員就佢中華提交嗰啲SDN 進行實地風險評估嘅時 8 候,其實佢哋應該係隨機去睇咗當時個要求,即係當時嘅要求就係要加滅火筒吖 9 嘛,所以其實佢去就係睇下有冇加滅火筒,係咪? 10 姜世明先生:佢去都有幾多目的下嘅,咁除咗去加滅火筒,睇下加番未,就係佢去完第一次 11 之後嘅第二次去跟進,先至去睇佢加番未。 12 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白。 13 姜世明先生:除非佢第一次就已經擺咗。 14 杜淦堃資深大律師:當然,即係我明你,佢遞咗個SDN 畀你,你之後要佢加,佢至加㗎。 15 姜世明先生:係,係,冇錯。 16 杜淦堃資深大律師:所以佢第一次去就冇理由係睇有冇擺滅火筒。 17 姜世明先生:有時佢擺埋喺度。 18 杜淦堃資深大律師:係。 19 姜世明先生:係。 20 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係如果佢做咗,自動自覺就得? 21 姜世明先生:係,冇錯,冇錯。 22 杜淦堃資深大律師:我嘅意思就係,其實你都係因應佢話畀你知停乜,你哋去睇下有關嘅措 23 施有冇做到,就唔會做其他評估嘅?我想理解咗呢樣嘢先。 24 姜世明先生:正確。少少補充就係佢都會有一啲信件發畀個設施嘅擁有人。 25 杜淦堃資深大律師:而你哋係個假定就係因為只係停一部分,你哋會假設其他嘅措施嘅運作 26 係有效嘅? 27 姜世明先生:正確。 28 杜淦堃資深大律師:而咁做個原因就係其實我哋睇番2021 年第一號通函,成個機制基本上 29 係倚賴承辦商嘅誠信,同埋佢哋有效咁、準確咁通報相關嘅資料? 30 姜世明先生:同意。 31 杜淦堃資深大律師:如果佢哋搞錯,其實消防處係偵測唔到嘅,咁講公唔公道? 32 姜世明先生:除非我係中咗我哋頭先講嘅抽查嘅情況。 33 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係如果你係咁啱抽查到,梗係check 到喇? 34 姜世明先生:係。 35 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係如果佢冇被咁啱抽查過嘅話,基本上你哋唔會知? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十天

43 本謄本由Epiq 編製 姜世明先生:正確。 1 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想問下你嘅就係,我哋而家知道宏福苑呢個例子,你收到SDN 停相關 2 嘅系統,既然同事都落去睇相關嘅消防設施,睇下佢有冇履行到佢相關嘅責任,或 3 者你話譬如一啲救火嘅措施做唔咗到,你哋會唔會覺得其實喺呢個情況之下因為部 4 分設施嘅關閉,另外一啲依然有效嘅消防設施就變得更加緊要,咁講啱唔啱? 5 姜世明先生:同意。 6 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係舉個例子,喉轆同埋消防栓冇咗,咁個火警警報系統就變得更加緊 7 要? 8 姜世明先生:同意。 9 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁喺呢個邏輯底下,同事都落得去,睇埋其他火警嘅系統係唔係正常運 10 作,相信呢個要做到咁嘅要求唔會帶來好多工作量,同唔同意? 11 姜世明先生:唔完全同意。 12 杜淦堃資深大律師:一定要額外嘅工作量,係咪? 13 姜世明先生:唔係,亦都一套系統你都唔係睇一睇就知佢可以可靠咁運作,你知道一套系統 14 可靠咁運作... 15 杜淦堃資深大律師:你要做測試? 16 姜世明先生:要有啲測試嘅 17 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白。 18 姜世明先生:都唔係望,同埋有啲一棟大廈唔係有兩套,好似我哋而家所處大廈... 19 杜淦堃資深大律師:有好多套? 20 姜世明先生:...就可能七套系統。 21 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白。我想問你,亦都即係你唔好覺得我係話你--我想達到--我想同你 22 探討嘅題目就唔係話你入一入去望下就知道個掣就閂咗,即係我哋唔係諗得咁簡 23 單。我只係想問下,你哋覺唔覺得既然知道某部分嘅保障生命措施當時係冇有效咁 24 運作,另外一啲措施變得更加重要嘅時候,你哋覺唔覺其實都要做一啲嘢去確保另 25 外嗰啲措施係正常運作? 26 姜世明先生:同意,我亦都少少補充,就係除咗搵人去睇,我亦都正如我剛才講話有啲通 27 函,通函係要求有啲封條,因為其實你睇就睇咗一次,但係你睇完轉頭又有人唔知 28 點解又閂,都係論盡嘅,所以讓承辦商或者物管業界持續係跟進嘅嘢都好重要,所 29 以我同意你所講。 30 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白,我諗我哋大家都同意嘅。當然亦都有少少,每一件事我哋會汲取 31 到教訓,但係我咁講,我相信都係合理嘅。喺呢次事件之前,似乎就係當某部分嘅 32 消防系統唔係正常運作嘅時候,消防處係冇措施去檢測一下其他似乎係仍然運作嘅 33 系統係正常運作嘅,啱唔啱? 34 姜世明先生:如果以一個嗰個個案就係,嗰個措施就係另外跌咗落去其他嘅審核嘅制度,但 35 係嗰一個個案我同意嘅。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十天

44 本謄本由Epiq 編製 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係你如果其他審核制度,咁啱即係用佢既有嘅制度搵到梗係知,譬如 1 你有個(English Spoken),當然我哋知道。 2 姜世明先生:同意。 3 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係喺制度上高係冇嘢去確保其他系統運作,我明白你頭先講到呢個可 4 能有個困難,因為你用咗呢個大廈做例子。但係喺原則上,我哋頭先嗰個講法係準 5 確,而你都啱啱講咗,你哋都覺得呢一樣係需要改善嘅嘢,係咪? 6 姜世明先生:絶對需要改善,但係呢度我有少少補充。因為我其實都有發過信畀呢個大廈設 7 施嘅擁有人,信件裏面亦都將我同你頭先講其他設施都要好好咁樣保持住呢樣嘢係 8 提醒咗佢,包括例如喺個水缸度注滿水,亦都喺我哋--喺文件錄裏面嘅一個信件裏 9 面都清楚講出。 10 杜淦堃資深大律師:時間關係,我諗如果我籠統咁講,希望你唔介意。 11 姜世明先生:係。 12 杜淦堃資深大律師:喺呢啲情況之下,你哋做嘅工作都係其實要倚賴有關嘅承辦商同埋業主 13 去處理? 14 姜世明先生:同意。 15 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁講啱唔啱呢?其實主要就宏福苑為例,主要保障生命嘅消防系統我哋 16 見到有兩個,可能因為本案停咗嘅關係,所以特別探討呢兩個。但係我哋知道有個 17 消防栓同埋喉轆系統,第二就係知道個警警報系統。 18 姜世明先生:係。 19 杜淦堃資深大律師:喺系統上高係主要呢兩套,係咪? 20 姜世明先生:同意,係。 21 杜淦堃資深大律師:冇第三套系統其實? 22 姜世明先生:有個喺樓梯裏面嘅緊急照明,同埋一啲房裏面嘅滅火筒,係四樣嘢。 23 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢四樣嘢。緊急照明系統,譬如我哋就呢個個案,我哋知道個消防栓同 24 埋個喉轆系統係關閉咗,緊急照明系統、滅火筒同埋個火警警報系統,我哋知道冇 25 去探討係唔係正常運作嘅? 26 姜世明先生:係,同意。 27 杜淦堃資深大律師:你哋2021 年嘅第1 號通函亦都講到,如果關閉系統,其實要將個影響 28 減到最低,一般嚟講唔應該多過十四日嘅,係咪? 29 姜世明先生:每一次關閉同埋延長唔應該多過十四日,一般嗰個係有啲特定條件,即係話如 30 果你係用舊樓提升嗰度,就往往會多過十四日。 31 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白,因為有啲工程冇可能十四日裏面做得完。 32 姜世明先生:係,冇錯。 33 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋睇番個通函,B2/1307 嗰個特別事項嗰度。縮細少少。你見到呢 34 度講“(English Spoken)"(「喺呢個背景底下,消防處處長就認為係冇就 35 住呢個通函係出呢個通知嘅程序,冇跟進呢個程序,又或者係呢一個就係構成一個 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十天

45 本謄本由Epiq 編製 行為不當或者係疏忽」),係唔可以再持牌嘅? 1 姜世明先生:係會除名一段時間,係。 2 杜淦堃資深大律師:如果承辦商冇跟足通函規定,對消防裝置嗰個關閉係有不當咁延誤嘅, 3 呢個係一個嚴重嘅紀律處分嚟嘅可能? 4 姜世明先生:係,會紀律處分。 5 杜淦堃資深大律師:當然有幾嚴重係停幾耐,同埋佢有冇任何辯解? 6 姜世明先生:同意,係。 7 杜淦堃資深大律師:而嗰個就係紀律聆訊要處理嘅嘢,即係你有處理嗰一個? 8 姜世明先生:係,冇錯。 9 杜淦堃資深大律師:消防系統關閉,就算大廈做緊工程都好,都係應該儘量縮短嘅,而如果 10 冇做到呢一樣嘢,呢個係一個嚴重嘅事情嚟嘅相信? 11 姜世明先生:同意。 12 杜淦堃資深大律師:做緊大維修嘅時候,呢個更加緊要,係咪? 13 姜世明先生:同意。 14 杜淦堃資深大律師:你可唔可以講到畀我哋聽,因為你都係處理紀律嗰方面。其實喺每一年 15 裏面,因為啲註冊承辦商拖延消防裝置嘅工程轉交你哋紀律委員會嘅個案,大概幾 16 多宗? 17 姜世明先生:我記憶所及係甚少嘅,呢個都少少補充,就係佢拖延與否都好睇委託佢嗰個業 18 主會唔會係對呢件事有好大意見,因為佢哋自己之間嘅合約嘅內容。即係簡單嚟 19 講,如果業主係向我哋投訴話佢拖住嚟做等等,展開調查真有其事,就會出現嗰個 20 指控。 21 杜淦堃資深大律師:而呢啲投訴比較少嘅? 22 姜世明先生:甚少。 23 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢個少嘅理由有好多個,可能業主本身都冇嗰個警覺性,係咪? 24 姜世明先生:可能係。 25 杜淦堃資深大律師:據我理解你哋內部嘅指引都講咗,收到SDN 之後帶嚟嘅風險嘅。我哋去 26 bundle B2 睇2185 頁,呢個我哋叫做(English Spoken),呢個係你哋嘅 27 政策指引,係咪? 28 姜世明先生:係,正確。 29 杜淦堃資深大律師:而我哋見到佢呢度有講過,頂嗰部分,呢個係處理消防裝備故障停用個 30 案嘅一般程序。 31 姜世明先生:正確。 32 杜淦堃資深大律師:翻到2202 頁,我哋見到有個(English Spoken)嘅,呢個有一個 33 叫做(English Spoken),即係提供後畀設施嘅指引。 34 姜世明先生:係。 35 杜淦堃資深大律師:如果我哋睇第二段嗰段,我想問一問你嘅就係有啲唔同嘅情況,當然呢 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十天

46 本謄本由Epiq 編製 個就唔係全部嘅情況,只係一啲嘅指引。 1 姜世明先生:係。 2 杜淦堃資深大律師:就話IO 應該點做,而你呢度亦都強調咗佢哋都要用佢哋嘅專業判斷去 3 睇下嗰個火警風險,係咪? 4 姜世明先生:冇錯。 5 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想問你邏輯問題,如果去到第2203 頁,我想睇呢一個個案5,個 6 (English Spoken),佢就話“(English Spoken )",即係喉轆/消防 7 栓系統就停止運作。“(English Spoken)",即係冇警鐘。 8 姜世明先生:係。 9 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁個“(English Spoken)",個建議就係有一個,9 litre 嘅 10 (English Spoken),9 公升嘅喺每一個喉轆個位都咁做。 11 姜世明先生:係。 12 杜淦堃資深大律師:你睇個案6,個案6 就話火警系統係生效,而嗰個消防栓/喉轆系統唔 13 生效,即係似乎宏福苑就係講緊呢個例子? 14 姜世明先生:係。 15 杜淦堃資深大律師:裏面都係講“(English Spoken)",就係亦都係有個9 公升嘅滅 16 火筒,但係擺個位置有啲分別嘅,就係每個喉轆,但係就係隔一層嘅,同埋就係每 17 一個受影響嘅地方嗰一層應該係躉一個嘅。 18 姜世明先生:係,冇錯。 19 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想問下嘅,就係其實呢啲情況係唔係都需要檢討呢?因為我哋見到你 20 個火警鐘失靈同個火警鐘有效嘅情況,我哋只係講緊躉滅火筒嘅位置唔同,呢一個 21 似乎係唔係亦都反映咗其實你哋呢啲嘅指引可能都需要檢討? 22 姜世明先生:同意嘅,就係有少少補充,就係我同意需要檢討。事實上,呢個替代措施喺佢 23 維修期間拎出嚟替補,佢就真係唔會同本身嗰套系統嗰個效能咁高,亦都未必完全 24 對應到。事實上,我哋現時都見到某一啲係可以接受嘅一啲新嘅產品,係可以喺火 25 警鐘失效時係可以大量--即係更接近到發揮佢嗰個功能。 26 杜淦堃資深大律師:因為我哋嘅疑問係咁嘅,你睇下宏福苑呢個個案,其實火警鐘同埋嗰個 27 喉轆系統係兩樣最主要保障生命嘅措施嚟嘅。 28 姜世明先生:同意。 29 杜淦堃資深大律師:佢其中一樣失效,或者兩樣失效,你就算喺呢個個案躉多好多個滅火 30 筒,其實都幫唔到啲居民。 31 姜世明先生:同意,不過我畀個信函管理處嘅時候,都有一啲其他嘅措施要去執行,除咗替 32 代措施,我有成十二三項嘅要求佢嘅提示,要求佢執行,咁都一併睇會全面啲。 33 杜淦堃資深大律師:例如呢?你可唔可以講例如有啲咩嘢措施最有...(聽不清) 34 姜世明先生:例如我叫佢--或者我哋都可以睇一睇我畀佢嗰份信函嘅,一個(English 35 Spoken)嗰個(English Spoken)可以跟住睇。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十天

47 本謄本由Epiq 編製 杜淦堃資深大律師:我搵番嗰一頁出嚟先。 1 姜世明先生:係,有個。 2 杜淦堃資深大律師:B2/1446,呢個係咪? 3 姜世明先生:係,可以睇或者。係,講番呢封信最緊要有個(English Spoken)。 4 杜淦堃資深大律師:你繼續落,呢個係(English Spoken ),就係一個表格,平時都 5 會... 6 姜世明先生:係。 7 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,你係唔係講緊呢個? 8 姜世明先生:我想講就係我呢個信函都有好幾個--喺(English Spoken)裏面有幾封。 9 咁睇番上面嘅頁面,首先裏面包含咗我對佢哋一個提醒,就係話你有啲嘢已經係壞 10 咗或者關閉修理。咁喺2 嘅--因為呢個係一封信兩用,佢除咗關閉修理,佢有啲嘢 11 嚴重損毀都係同一封。咁喺2 嗰一欄提佢幾樣嘢,要通知番居民;注滿番個水缸嘅 12 水;唔好延誤。呢樣嘢除咗係我哋同承辦商講你唔好延誤,我同管理處亦都講唔好 13 延誤,並且係可以嘅話,有啲系統可以分期進行嘅,即係例如一啲灑水系統就唔同 14 嘅area 一齊做。 15 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋睇番嗰個附表。 16 姜世明先生:係。 17 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢度講出有關嘅要求,你下列嘅地點要提供嗰個滅火筒,隔層每個消防 18 喉轆位置。 19 姜世明先生:係。 20 杜淦堃資深大律師:當然我哋明白嗰個消防喉轆唔係運作嘅時候,你躉多啲滅火筒可能有替 21 代性嘅功效。 22 姜世明先生:係,係。 23 杜淦堃資深大律師:我都明白冇咗個火警警報系統,通知居民好重要嘅,因為等佢知道可能 24 聽唔到火警鐘。 25 姜世明先生:同意嘅,係,。 26 杜淦堃資深大律師:但似乎冇其他方法... 27 姜世明先生:唔係,我同意嘅,嗰個火警警報系統維修期間嘅替代,我哋而家都思考緊係點 28 樣做係更好,今天係我哋都搵緊一個無論係價格上或者其他嘅方法上,係用得嚟係 29 作一個短暫替代,即係大眾係會接受到,我哋搵緊。 30 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋都想睇番個政策層面上高有咩嘢可以做到,... 31 姜世明先生:同意。 32 杜淦堃資深大律師:因為似乎而家有效嘅,無論你哋過往嘅做法又好,聽你而家嘅答案又 33 好,火警警報系統關閉其實冇一個有效嘅替代措施嘅,係咪?可唔可以咁講? 34 姜世明先生:如果你連埋一啲叫做例如裏面所講喺啲地方更加要加緊其他嘅消防安全等等, 35 但係完全對應嘅話係同意佢哋冇,完全一模一樣對應番番替代到嘅,今天係冇。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十天

48 本謄本由Epiq 編製 杜淦堃資深大律師:而你提佢哋嘅事情,譬如你講到話等佢哋知道冇個系統,咁呢個係緊要 1 嘅。你話個水缸要注滿水,當然呢個有個困難,因為我哋知道個工程係整水缸,你 2 唔可以經常都注滿水。 3 姜世明先生:係。 4 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係換句話講,可能要探討嘅就係如果冇咗火警警報系統嘅時候,冇一 5 個直接有效嘅措施去話畀居民知道火警嘅時候要豪逃生,呢個係我哋未搵一個好有 6 效嘅方法,係咪? 7 姜世明先生:完全對應,未搵到,但係會積極探討緊。 8 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白。我想跟住落嚟同你講一講就中華發展嗰個監管嘅問題。 9 姜世明先生:好。 10 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋知道你要倚賴個承辦商嘅自律,所以對佢哋嘅監管好緊要,係咪? 11 姜世明先生:同意。 12 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋知道有啲承辦商曾經被處分,中華發展被處分曾經? 13 姜世明先生:曾經,係。 14 杜淦堃資深大律師:你亦都講到就係因為佢個牌係而家喺剎那都係永遠嘅,所以被處分,基 15 本上唔除牌,就對佢冇其他嘅影響,而係因為咁樣樣,所以你哋就要考慮個牌唔可 16 以永續,係咪? 17 姜世明先生:同意,係,唔。 18 杜淦堃資深大律師:而對於一啲被處分過嘅承辦商,似乎喺現有嘅莉制度之下,除咗罰佢嗰 19 下,之後其實係對佢係冇影響嘅,可唔可以咁講? 20 姜世明先生:少少補充,我同意唔係完全冇影響嘅。首先,我會加佢個違例記分制,加左違 21 例記分制,我對佢嘅抽查會更嚴謹。此外,喺我哋網頁度,或者出咗憲報,其實係 22 登咗出嚟,或者讓其他嘅市民去搵承辦商係更易搵到係唔係有一啲紀律唔好嘅,咁 23 佢就未必會畀生意佢做,咁都對佢會有影響。 24 杜淦堃資深大律師:好,我諗我哋把握時間。我想同你睇一睇就宏福苑嘅一次主動巡查嗰個 25 情況。你第一份證人陳述書第7.1 段提到,一般嚟講消防處各個單位到訪或者查詢 26 一個屋苑,例如宏福苑,都係因為三樣嘢我哋知道,火警危險嘅投訴,消防裝置相 27 關巡查或者當區消防局巡查,主要係呢三樣,係咪? 28 姜世明先生:唔,係。 29 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋講番第三樣,主動巡查。你第一份證人供詞第7.2 段,你話「自 30 2024 年7 月翻新工程以嚟,消防處一共進行咗二十六次到訪或者巡查,係咪? 31 姜世明先生:同意。 32 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係裏面係只係一次屬於主動巡查嘅啫? 33 姜世明先生:同意。 34 杜淦堃資深大律師:而嗰次巡查就關係於嗰個緊急嘅車輛通道,我哋叫做EVA。 35 姜世明先生:同意,係。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十天

49 本謄本由Epiq 編製 杜淦堃資深大律師:根據你哋嘅內部紀錄,如果我睇番,去B2/1371。 1 姜世明先生:錯咗。 2 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋見到有封信嘅呢度,有個紀錄或者,呢度咁講嘅“ (English 3 Spoken)"(「去宏福苑嘅常規檢查,係喺2025 年10 月19 號夜晚8 點10 分 4 進行嘅,咁喺檢查當時有喺宏福苑嘅緊急車輛通道進行道路測試,亦都確認係冇受 5 阻,亦都係有睇一啲消防栓係冇問題」),同埋睇過個水源? 6 姜世明先生:係。 7 杜淦堃資深大律師:而嗰個晚上我哋見到去嘅係有一架大型泵車,係咪?MP 嘅人員,係唔係 8 咁解意思? 9 姜世明先生:我哋叫佢(English Spoken),係,泵車。 10 杜淦堃資深大律師:(English Spoken),係。即係一隊配備咗齊全前線裝備嘅人員去 11 咗嘅? 12 姜世明先生:同意。 13 杜淦堃資深大律師:跟住佢哋除咗駛入屋苑之外,亦都做咗一次消防栓嘅檢查,嗰個係一個 14 目測嚟嘅,係咪? 15 姜世明先生:我睇呢度,我睇唔到會唔會試埋個水,但我哋常常都會試佢嘅。 16 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢個係好似個街井? 17 姜世明先生:呢個係街井,即係街嗰啲街龍頭,就唔係話樓裏面嗰啲。 18 杜淦堃資深大律師:你嘅證人供詞都講咗我哋聽,7.1.4 段,喺2018 年起你哋就推行咗一 19 個以風險為本嘅樓宇安全巡查計劃,主動咁樣喺各區度巡查,同埋去同相關嘅持份 20 者推廣有關風險,做呢啲教育嘅工作,係咪? 21 姜世明先生:係。 22 杜淦堃資深大律師:你可唔可以話畀我哋知喺2025 年10 月19 號呢次巡查,點解宏福苑 23 會被選中,其實用咩嘢準則選中佢,定係其實係隨機? 24 姜世明先生:嗰個同事有好多原因去就住佢域內嘅大廈去睇,早一啲畀佢熟悉,或者係去令 25 到同事,因為都有新同事、舊同事,咁呢個係佢能夠做到佢就做咁嘅意思,就並唔 26 係under 一個-- 起碼喺我睇呢個章節裏面就唔係under 一個(English 27 Spoken)咁去做。 28 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係呢個背後點解做一次突擊巡查個原因,我哋就睇唔到,係咪? 29 姜世明先生:佢甚至唔係一個巡查,唔好意思,佢係一個視察,因為巡查往往就係想搵有冇 30 問題咁樣,佢係一個視察。 31 杜淦堃資深大律師:所以喺呢個大維修期間,其實呢一類型嘅視察係得呢一次,係咪? 32 姜世明先生:暫時紀錄顯示係嘅。 33 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋唔好講暫時紀錄顯示,據你理解。 34 姜世明先生:據我理解係,冇錯。 35 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想問消防處有冇指標,就係話每年要做幾多次呢啲嘅主動巡查?呢一 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十天

50 本謄本由Epiq 編製 類型嘅。 1 姜世明先生:提番你剛才講嗰個(English Spoken )嗰度,咁佢就將啲樓有啲風險類 2 別,咁就有啲係間距一年一次,有啲兩年一次咁樣,佢冇一個指標要達成幾多次視 3 察嘅。 4 杜淦堃資深大律師:因為如果睇番你嘅證人供詞最屘,你話“(English Spoken )" 5 (「透過呢啲視察就令到前線人員係可以更好知道呢啲情況之後,可以計劃行動 6 嘅」),但係如果呢個係個目的嘅話,你就咁睇下(English Spoken)同埋睇 7 係街井,其實似乎喺宏福苑呢度做緊工程嘅個案應該未必達到呢個目的,同唔同 8 意? 9 姜世明先生:同意,但係頭先嗰次就唔係呢一個嚟嘅。 10 杜淦堃資深大律師:頭先嗰次係另外一個嚟嘅? 11 姜世明先生:頭先嗰次唔係呢一個嚟嘅,係。 12 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係就如果你講緊呢一個巡查,喺宏福苑個個案裏面... 13 姜世明先生:呢個拜訪--呢個視察,係。 14 杜淦堃資深大律師:就冇做過,係咪? 15 姜世明先生:冇做過,係。 16 杜淦堃資深大律師:因為我哋睇番就呢一次嘅巡查,我哋唔知道佢個目的係其實想達到啲咩 17 嘢目的,我哋知道一定係睇車路有冇問題,睇啲街井有冇問題,但係如果我哋睇你 18 嗰晚相關同事畀警方嘅證供,我哋去C3 第一個bundle,1795 頁--1794 開 19 始,呢個係警方同你嘅同事落取嘅口供嚟嘅。 20 姜世明先生:係。 21 杜淦堃資深大律師:佢哋咁問嘅,佢哋問佢係關於2025 年10 月19 號,第二段就話佢當 22 值大埔消防局嘅C 隊,佢講咗嗰一次巡查,佢就帶領咗消防泵車隊去到宏福苑嗰個 23 緊急車輛出入口進行視察,其間檢視咗出入口有冇被阻塞,以及附近地方嘅消防栓 24 表面有冇被打開或者損壞,經調查後緊急車輛出入口冇擠塞,消防栓表面亦冇異 25 樣,即係佢嘅異樣,其實佢冇試過嘅,佢就咁睇下表面有冇問題。 26 姜世明先生:我按呢度睇就係。 27 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁佢有一系列嘅問題問佢嘅,譬如: 28 「你巡查--你視察時候有冇檢視過大廈嘅消防裝置?有冇檢查出入口附近嘅消 29 防栓?你檢查嘅時候,有冇檢查過大廈嘅消防栓同埋個喉轆系統?檢查宏福苑緊急 30 車輛出入口表面有冇損壞?」 31 跟住你見到嘅係「你檢查時,有冇檢查過大廈嘅消防警鐘係唔係運作正常?」 32 咁你見到答三,佢就係話「冇檢查。」 33 「有冇入過泵房?」「冇。」 34 「你檢查嘅時候,個電源係點樣樣?有冇關閉?」「唔知。」 35 「你檢查嘅時,你知唔知大嘅消防系統個加壓泵同埋警鐘係同一個開關掣?」 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十天

51 本謄本由Epiq 編製 「唔知。」 1 「你視察時宏福苑管理處嘅員工有冇同你講上述嘅警鐘系統關閉咗?」 2 「冇。」 3 「你視察時有冇喺大廈當眼處見到有嗰啲關閉消防裝置嘅警告?」佢呢度都係 4 話「冇嘅。」 5 我唔係話-- 即係當然每一個巡邏都有佢嘅目的,我亦都唔係批評呢一位消防 6 員,因為佢可能都係跟政策去做嘅。但係我想問下你嘅就係咁樣樣,呢一次係喺大 7 火之前一次比較具規模嘅巡查嚟嘅,因為你見到佢講咗“(English Spoken) 8 ",即係全隊帶埋裝備去查嘅,你同意嘛? 9 姜世明先生:常規規模,因為我哋架車叫(English Spoken),但係消防車都係每架車 10 都有差唔多人數嘅其實。 11 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白。 12 姜世明先生:出勤就。 13 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔係就咁一兩個同事就走去睇? 14 姜世明先生:係,冇錯,常規規模。 15 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係就呢一啲嘅巡查去令啲同事更加了解,譬如一旦出事嘅時候點樣去 16 應變,呢一樣嘢就咁去睇個(English Spoken)同埋外面個消防栓表面有冇問 17 題,呢一個似乎嗰個成效係非常有限嘅,同唔同意? 18 姜世明先生:同意,但係另一個(English Spoken)嗰個會睇埋。 19 杜淦堃資深大律師:好,就宏福苑一個(English Spoken)去睇下真係如果呢八棟大廈 20 都鋪晒棚網,搭晒棚架,個工程同一時間進行,喺大火之前係有定冇做過? 21 姜世明先生:冇,頭先有個名(English Spoken)嗰一個類別,冇。 22 杜淦堃資深大律師:點解冇做過? 23 姜世明先生:呢個(English Spoken)係將啲樓宇分一個--按照佢個用途嚟分級別,因 24 為樓宇眾多,有一啲級別我哋都比較高,例如好似一啲商廈或者係一啲廠廈,咁呢 25 啲密起上嚟係一年睇一次,起碼吓。咁係住宅樓喺當時嗰個界別嚟講,應該係三年 26 一次,或者甚至四年一次。 27 杜淦堃資深大律師:大埔區--主席。 28 陸啟康法官:但係你同唔同意其實--即係當然我哋而家事後睇番。 29 姜世明先生:係。 30 陸啟康法官:其實喺大維修工程入面,其實個火警風險係差唔多最高,因為除咗有即係地盤 31 嘅危險性之外,仲有人喺度住。 32 姜世明先生:今天看來,我絕對同意,係。 33 杜淦堃資深大律師:正如主席所講,有啲施緊工嘅地盤我哋而家知道,我哋唔好講其他嘅相 34 關法規,起火當然你如果只係有工人,你冇居民嘅話,嗰個風險唔同,受影響嘅人 35 都比較少。而嗰一啲嘅工地你哋係有特別嘅巡邏或者特別措施去監督相關嘅防火風 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十天

52 本謄本由Epiq 編製 險--防火風險嘅,係咪? 1 姜世明先生:地盤吖嘛? 2 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔。 3 姜世明先生:有嘅。 4 杜淦堃資深大律師:而嗰一啲嘅地盤嘅相應措施,喺大維修嘅情況之下,係唔係都係適用? 5 姜世明先生:地盤我哋會睇嗰啲臨時供水設施,地盤就係咁樣。大維修時我同意,今天看來 6 我哋係要加緊去睇嘅。 7 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係換句話講,亦都我哋講過好多種唔同嘅調查,即係有啲係隨機,有 8 啲係突擊,亦都有唔同嘅目的。 9 姜世明先生:係。 10 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係針對宏福苑呢八座大廈喺大維修時候嘅風險,似乎大埔區消防局嘅 11 同事係冇特別就呢個大維修去進行一啲全面嘅評估,去睇下防止火警風險呢個範疇 12 有冇嘢係可以做到嘅? 13 姜世明先生:同意。 14 杜淦堃資深大律師:佢哋研究嘅就係救火嘅時候... 15 姜世明先生:同意。 16 杜淦堃資深大律師:主席,呢個係一個好嘅時間。 17 陸啟康法官:咁我哋押後到2 點15 分。 18

19 13 時04 分聆訊押後 20 14 時15 分聆訊恢復 21

22 陸啟康法官:係,請繼續。 23 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,姜先生,你好。 24 姜世明先生:你好。 25 杜淦堃資深大律師:跟住想同你探討一下一啲涉及消防系統一啲嘅缺陷,(English 26 Spoken)嗰啲巡查。你見到前面你第一份證人供詞裏面有一個表,就講咗相關嘅 27 巡查,我哋見到(English Spoken)嗰一欄,十八次裏面有六次係(English 28 Spoken),有十二次係(English Spoken)。 29 姜世明先生:係。 30 杜淦堃資深大律師:而嗰六次其實係喺2024 年10 月28 號到2025 年9 月17 號嘅,即 31 係呢個喺你證人供證第二部分嗰度睇到,可唔可以咁講?呢啲嘅巡查大部分都係你 32 哋收到FS251,識別出個消防裝置有問題,就去進行呢啲巡查,咁講啱唔啱? 33 姜世明先生:同意。 34 杜淦堃資深大律師:而喺你同一份證人供詞,我哋落啲7.2.2 裏面提到,呢啲巡查,其實 35 就會點呢?就會其實係(English Spoken),即係會導致消防處發出一啲建議 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十天

53 本謄本由Epiq 編製 信或者警告信,有講(English Spoken),係咪? 1 姜世明先生:同意。 2 杜淦堃資深大律師:佢哋會要求提供啲後備嘅設施或者叫佢加快個工程? 3 姜世明先生:同意。 4 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋再睇番當時嘅紀錄,B2/1595 頁,呢個係你哋--我哋今朝都睇 5 過,系統裏面睇到嘅資料喇當時。如果你去睇49--M4912 呢,即係中間,你見到 6 第二段嗰度。 7 姜世明先生:係。 8 杜淦堃資深大律師:睇到啲咩嘢呢似乎?4911,唔好意思。你睇到呢度,啱唔啱?4912, 9 呢度你見到佢就話有個電話查詢(English Spoken)就打畀個註冊消防裝置嘅 10 承辦商,咁就知道係有個(English Spoken )FS251 。但係你呢度就話 11 「(English Spoken)」,即係有個缺失喺度,有個問題喺度,但係唔係會引 12 致關閉個系統嘅,係咪? 13 姜世明先生:係。 14 杜淦堃資深大律師:跟住第三段嗰度都講咗,中間嗰度(English Spoken ),第三行 15 (English Spoken),嗰個(English Spoken),即係個系統仍然保持運 16 作。第五嗰度就話(English Spoken ),咩嘢叫「(English 17 Spoken)」? 18 姜世明先生:(English Spoken) 19 杜淦堃資深大律師:(English Spoken ),okay,唔該你。第二段提到嗰個FS251 20 呢,你睇番1596 頁,B2,呢個係--呢個有幾個日期我哋想關注一下嘅,第一呢, 21 呢份就係--個日期係2023 年嘅12 月嘅,你見到。佢簽個日子。 22 姜世明先生:係。 23 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係如果你睇番左上角,嗰個傳真嘅時間似乎就係2024 年8 月2 號, 24 見到嘛? 25 姜世明先生:見到。 26 杜淦堃資深大律師:消防處個蓋印下低,我見到中間大嗰個,正方形呢個,就11 月,我睇 27 唔到幾多號,2024 年,我想問呢幾個日子點解𧶄咁遠嘅? 28 姜世明先生:第一個,我認為係佢入畀我哋係入得遲咗。 29 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係佢簽咗之後--你意思佢簽咗之後八個月先sent 畀你? 30 姜世明先生:我睇呢個日子就係咁嘞。 31 杜淦堃資深大律師:係嘞,所以就係話嘞,如果個承辦商畀一份八個月前簽嘅FS251 畀你 32 哋,呢個係咪唔尋常㗎? 33 姜世明先生:唔尋常,應該十四日就畀我哋。 34 杜淦堃資深大律師:係呀。跟住你哋個印係就係2024 年11 月,點解呢個印係咁遲,個情 35 況係點,可唔可以解釋一下? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十天

54 本謄本由Epiq 編製 姜世明先生:呢個我哋都係要克服嘅挑戰,就係我哋個紙本入嚟嘅(English 1 Spoken),證書量都多,咁嚟到嘅時間我哋係請一啲資料輸入員陸續就將佢去入 2 落去我哋個系統度。 3 杜淦堃資深大律師:如果係聽你咁講,即係其實原本嗰個設計係完全冇意義嘅,你叫人十四 4 日內入畀你,佢sent 一份八個月之前簽嘅嘢畀你,又冇人睇到,sent 咗畀你哋 5 之後,其實三個月之後先有人入落個系統嗰度,個情況會唔會係咁? 6 姜世明先生:我睇呢啲印就係嘞,唔。 7 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁呢個絕對唔理想喇,係咪?即係如果你要監察個消防系統有冇失效或 8 者有任何嘅缺失,𧶄咗幾個月先去做,呢個可大可小,係咪? 9 姜世明先生:同意,我有啲補充。 10 杜淦堃資深大律師:好。 11 姜世明先生:呢方面我哋都做緊工夫,喺將來嘅修例裏面,我哋都會係強制係電子輸入,就 12 將呢啲時間嘅差異𠇊嘗試縮到最短。 13 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想問下嗰個印,我哋而家睇到呢個呢,我哋睇唔晒,因為個印比較 14 朦,呢個印應該係幾時去抌㗎,係輸入嗰下? 15 姜世明先生:呢個應該係收到嗰下。 16 杜淦堃資深大律師:邊個收到? 17 姜世明先生:我睇呢個印係嚟自我哋嘅消防設施監督課。 18 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係8 月似乎就喺Victory Fire 嗰度sent 咗過去,fax 咗去畀你 19 哋嘅,如果睇番左上角嗰個(English Spoken)。 20 姜世明先生:同意。 21 杜淦堃資深大律師:點解會幾個月之後嗰個--呢個消防系統,嗰個licensing,即係嗰個 22 發牌課先收到呢? 23 姜世明先生:呢個我唔清楚。 24 杜淦堃資深大律師:好,睇番我哋B2/1595,我哋睇到第三段,佢就話其實呢啲唔係好嚴重 25 嘅缺陷,係啲(English Spoken)嚟嘅。咁就見到佢繼續運作,兩個月之後先 26 跟進,兩個月之後先至跟進,但係如果你全部呢啲嘅內容,呢啲嘅FS251 都係可 27 能幾個月之後先有人去睇嘅話,咁呢一個兩個月之後先跟進,呢個兩個月就係唔止 28 兩個月喎應該,係咪呀? 29 姜世明先生:同意,人手...(聽不清)許可係應該緊貼--即係更加緊貼係更加好。 30 杜淦堃資深大律師:同一份FS251,我哋知道消防處喺2025 年嘅8 月12 號,喺宏泰閣行 31 咗調查嘅,我哋睇1599,呢個係系統嘅紀錄。你如果從1600 開始睇,M-1373 32 最底嗰度,見到消防處呢個entry 就應該係11 月28 日,你哋就收到FS251, 33 頭先見到11 月嗰個日子,可能係28 號嚟㗎嘞。 34 姜世明先生:係,係。 35 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢度就開咗個檔案似乎佢,佢就話「(English Spoken)」,有人 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十天

55 本謄本由Epiq 編製 打咗咁嘅紀錄。我哋頭先都睇過,如果你去1601,之後嗰頁。嗰個我哋知道個日 1 期係12 月4 號嘛,右下角,所以如果睇番呢個表格同埋你哋個電腦紀錄,即係換 2 句話講,你哋開呢個entry 個file 嘅時候,相關嘅消防裝置其實壞咗成年喎, 3 係咪? 4 姜世明先生:睇呢個紀錄就係。 5 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔。我哋再睇M-1375,去番嗰個1600 頁,之後有行動嘅,你哋見到 6 就話--我哋見到喺2 月4 號呢,就M-1374,refer 之前嗰個entry,已發出 7 WL,WL 就係Warning Letter,係咪? 8 姜世明先生:係。 9 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係所以2 月4 號就發咗個警告信,再睇番上高個紀錄,似乎3 月同4 10 月都有同佢哋聯絡就話未整好嘅。 11 姜世明先生:係。 12 杜淦堃資深大律師:跟住我哋睇1599,之前嗰頁呢,消防處你3、4 月就聯絡過--到四個 13 之後8 月就進行咗一次巡查。我哋睇1399 嗰度呢,就睇到你哋話「從物業管理公 14 司嘅黎先生親手接收獲得另外兩個 FS251 ,已上傳咗去(English 15 Spoken)。」跟住你話「從物業管理公司嘅...」--跟住如果我哋睇番8 月13 16 號嗰個備註,喺1599 呢一度呢,你見到「從物業管理公司黎先生手上取得新證 17 書,黎先生表示大廈招標中」。即係搞咗年半似乎佢就喺度招緊標,似乎係咁,係 18 咪呀? 19 姜世明先生:少少補充。 20 杜淦堃資深大律師:係。 21 姜世明先生:佢應該係喺25 年嘅3 月有個年檢證書,就將23 年12 月嘅損壞事項就修理 22 好。但係喺25 年嘅3 月佢有另一啲損壞事項。 23 杜淦堃資深大律師:你點知佢係修理好已經? 24 姜世明先生:呢張(English Spoken)係已經將--已經唔喺損壞事項裏見番23 年11 25 月嘅損壞事項,但係佢有另一啲損壞事項? 26 杜淦堃資深大律師:所以你嘅意思就係其實整番好㗎嘞,呢啲係另外一啲嘢嚟嘅? 27 姜世明先生:另一啲新年檢搵到嘅損壞事項。 28 杜淦堃資深大律師:你喺呢度點睇到係新嘅損壞事項? 29 姜世明先生:因為佢個新嘅年檢證書我都睇過,你呢度冇show 出嚟,你可以show 都得。 30 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔,即係換句話講... 31 姜世明先生:年檢證書佢寫住符合消防處標準,但係就喺損壞事項裏面搵唔番23 年11 月嗰 32 個損壞事項。 33 杜淦堃資深大律師:I see,所以呢個應該係一個新嘅損壞事項嚟嘅。 34 姜世明先生:係,冇錯。 35 杜淦堃資深大律師:所以嗰個就唔係話年半都未整,其實應該就喺年半之內就整好咗,係 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十天

56 本謄本由Epiq 編製 咪? 1 姜世明先生:係,冇錯,或者呢度睇可能係九個月。 2 杜淦堃資深大律師:想同你講另外一個議題,我哋知道你收到SDN 廿四小時裏面做第一次初 3 步評估。 4 姜世明先生:係。 5 杜淦堃資深大律師:完咗之後根據你證人供詞嘅講法就會交畀一個(English 6 Spoken)。 7 姜世明先生:係。 8 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係消防設施監督課。 9 姜世明先生:中間仲會隔一個時期嘅,因為評估個單位個前線--即係開頭做評估個單位喺前 10 線單位,咁佢唔係即刻交嘅。 11 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,跟住之後就交咗嚟畀你哋轄下呢一個消防設施監督課。 12 姜世明先生:冇錯。 13 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁你就話做持續監察嘅,ongoing monitoring 嘅,呢個係你第一 14 份證人供詞嘅8.2 段。 15 姜世明先生:係。 16 杜淦堃資深大律師:你第四份證人供詞第9 段有咁講嘅,你講得好清楚呢個SDN,如果我總 17 結得唔啱,你話我知。呢一個SDN 嘅系統係一個通知制度,亦都我哋頭先探討咗, 18 唔係一個批核制度,但係呢估你哋考慮改變。 19 姜世明先生:係。 20 杜淦堃資深大律師:佢哋有--註冊承辦商有最終嘅責任,(English Spoken) 21 姜世明先生:係。 22 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係可唔可以咁講?佢係一個通報嘅制度,佢哋有最終嘅責任,但係你 23 哋嘅責任亦都唔係純粹接收個通報,你哋收咗文件之後,亦都有責任去主動監察、 24 監督呢啲延期嘅通知,確保有關嘅系統係儘快恢復,我相信你會同意,係咪? 25 姜世明先生:同意。 26 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋呢度就可以睇下我哋B2 資料夾/2185 頁,裏面有一份政策文件, 27 我哋見到呢度係「(English Spoken)」,即係你哋消防處嘅政策文件,而呢 28 度係講咗個「(English Spoken)」,見到個題目。 29 姜世明先生:唔。 30 杜淦堃資深大律師:而呢度嘅政策就係同我哋之前睇過2021 年嘅第一號通函所牽涉嘅嘢係 31 一樣㗎喇。 32 姜世明先生:係,冇錯。 33 杜淦堃資深大律師:(English Spoken)而尚然我睇番個日子,呢份政策文件喺我哋要 34 處理嘅時間都係適用嘅。 35 姜世明先生:冇錯。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十天

57 本謄本由Epiq 編製 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋睇番份文件嘅3.4.2 段,喺2188 頁,有幾段我想你幫一幫我哋 1 嘅,呢度,3.4.2,基本上係咁講嘅,呢啲延長停用嘅通知其實應該係由個合資格 2 人士QB 或者授權簽署人士AP 簽署,同時嗰個(English Spoken)亦都要列明 3 維修同埋檢驗有關嘅消防裝置係註冊承辦商出具嗰個FS251 號碼嘅。(English 4 Spoken)見唔見到呀? 5 姜世明先生:同意,佢咁寫。 6 杜淦堃資深大律師:睇番下一段3.4.3,佢講到嘅就係如果每一次提交嘅停用期呢,之後超 7 過咗十四日,咁消防設備嘅專責隊伍(English Spoken),呢度講,就要考慮 8 採取行動,係咪咁呀? 9 姜世明先生:同意,但係佢呢個係每一個submission,係呀。 10 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,即係換句話講佢一個如果... 11 姜世明先生:即係佢一入就入... 12 杜淦堃資深大律師:...要停三十日,咁梗係...(聽不清)唔得喇。 13 姜世明先生:冇錯,唔,唔。 14 杜淦堃資深大律師:好,3.4.4(English Spoken)呢一段,即係換句話講,呢度講到 15 就係有關嘅消防局其實係要主動同業主、物管公司或者註冊承辦商定期聯絡,監察 16 工程嘅進度,係咪咁呀? 17 姜世明先生:同意。 18 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔。即係你哋個角色一定唔係被動去收呢啲延期同埋FS251 嘅,你收 19 到之後就會變成你哋有一個主動嘅責任去監督。 20 姜世明先生:呢度講係(English Spoken)。 21 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,(English Spoken )。你(English Spoken),基本上你 22 同佢去聯絡或者係諮詢佢,到最屘其實都係要確保佢嘅工程唔好無理地延遲,係 23 咪?因為呢個係有個消防風險嘅。 24 姜世明先生:我哋第一個確保--同意嘅呢個,少少補充啫,我哋最緊就係確保佢唔好做做 25 下,嗰個承辦商冇再跟落去。 26 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,當然,呢個... 27 姜世明先生:所以我同意你講。 28 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,呢個冇--如果佢唔跟落去嘅話,就會搞到嗰個shutdown 長咗 29 喇,呢個就係你哋想避免嘅嘢嘞。 30 姜世明先生:甚至係冇人理啲壞嘅嘢喇。 31 杜淦堃資深大律師:係嘞,而壞嘅嘢其實個原則好簡單啫,壞咗一定要儘快整好。 32 姜世明先生:係。 33 杜淦堃資深大律師:因為如果一日未整好嘅話,嗰個風險係會提高。 34 姜世明先生:同意,同意。 35 杜淦堃資深大律師:係呀。如果我哋睇2190,3.4.5(a)嗰度,呢度就咁講喎,就個消防 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十天

58 本謄本由Epiq 編製 栓同喉轆系統喺重大嘅維修同埋修理工程而言,停用嘅合理解釋應該唔超過兩個 1 月,係咪咁呀? 2 姜世明先生:佢上面有啲前設就係,第一個3.4.5 嗰幾行字,就係話係懷疑有承辦商不 3 當,咁並且用一個FS231 係一個投訴嚟㗎呢個,呢個FS231 係我地用--作為一 4 個投訴嘅表格。我嘅理解係有人比喻說懷疑啲承辦商做事幹不當咁做,會唔會係拖 5 延等等,向我哋作一個舉報。 6 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,當然呢個係個前設,就話畀你知,如果有呢啲情況咁就唔理想,你 7 哋要採取行動,但係佢咁講嘅喺(a)之前“(English Spoken)”,即係你睇 8 下下低呢一啲列出嘅事情,去幫助有關嘅你哋嘅同事去做佢自己嘅判斷,而佢點做 9 呢個判斷,就係其實呢啲咁嘅喉轆或者消防栓嘅修復工程,唔應該平時冇合理嘅理 10 由做多過兩個月? 11 姜世明先生:同意。 12 杜淦堃資深大律師:所以如果冇合理理由做多過兩個月嘅話,呢個會引起一個懷疑,係咪有 13 問題,就要跟進,係咪咁? 14 姜世明先生:同意,係,如果有人舉報就一定會,係。 15 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係我諗調轉嚟睇,你如果睇A,因為呢個--呢段嘅意思如果我冇理解 16 錯,其實呢個兩個月嘅要求係話畀你哋嘅同事聽「喂,如果去到兩個月嘅話,我其 17 實應該係知悉到可能係有問題,亦都考慮舉報嘅問題或者其他嘅引申嘅問題」,可 18 唔可以咁講? 19 姜世明先生:我唔完全同意,呢度真係成個段落係一致,佢都係喺舉報後就有呢個看法。 20 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋唔使咬文嚼字,或者我咁講,就你嘅經驗,如果呢啲系統停用多過 21 兩個月,睇落去都唔係好妥,係咪? 22 姜世明先生:我咁講,因為事實上就以2024 年嗰六千個為例,能夠十四日內做起嘅,都係 23 五百多個,兩個月內嘅數字,我嘅數字話畀我聽,三四成喥,嗄。 24 杜淦堃資深大律師:好,或者咁講,如果兩個月內做唔完嘅話,好清楚,如果我睇番你哋個 25 背後呢個政策文件嗰個意思,最少兩個月做唔完都應該去追同埋問下點解,係咪? 26 如果唔係,個設計就唔係每十四日申請一次,係咪? 27 姜世明先生:十四日申請一次係--我答你問題,兩個月呢個期限係我哋解讀嘅呢個4.2.16 28 裏面,係冇定一個係將佢視兩個月就係某一個特別要加大、加關注嘅時間點嚟嘅。 29 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁呢兩個月咩嘢意思,呢度?你嘅理解? 30 姜世明先生:我嘅理解就係當有人舉報,有承辦商--以我理解就係例如覺得佢係拖住個工 31 序,冇--不當地,咁嘅話我哋就要提佢。 32 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁嗰兩個月究竟咩嘢意思先?即係兩個月愛嚟做乜?如果有人起訴之 33 後,我兩個月之後要提佢?定係如果有人投訴,你哋又見到啲工程做多過兩個月, 34 我哋要懷疑?我想知道你個理解。 35 姜世明先生:哦,係,我嘅理解係咩嘢,因為唔一定係因為承辦商嘅緣故,個工程會耐嘅。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十天

59 本謄本由Epiq 編製 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白。 1 姜世明先生:因為你嘅業--或者係管理公司或者係設施嘅擁有人,佢都有好多因素或者話唔 2 定佢嘅合約,或者佢有其他嘅原因,令到工程唔係可以係好短咁樣完成。 3 杜淦堃資深大律師:完成,完全同意,即係嗰個責任未必係喺個承辦商嗰度喇? 4 姜世明先生:係。 5 杜淦堃資深大律師:可能有啲業主自己都拖延,可能個招標慢,有各種各樣唔同嘅理由? 6 姜世明先生:種種原因,係。 7 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係長期停用就一定唔理想,係咪? 8 姜世明先生:唔理想㗎,係。 9 杜淦堃資深大律師:你喺--我哋睇番中華佢交嘅SDN,你第一份證人供詞裏面,如果你睇 10 1829 頁,Bundle,第8.18,8.18.1,呢度講咗,消防處其實係由2025 年4 11 月7 號開始就接收到中華發展嘅梁先生交嘅SDN 要求關閉個消防水泵嘅,你知我係 12 講緊咩嘢,係咪? 13 姜世明先生:佢關閉個消防栓喉轆系統,佢冇--嗰張嘢冇訂明係個咩嘢嘅嘢。 14 杜淦堃資深大律師:好,佢呢度話關閉個消防喉轆系統,我哋可以睇番相關嘅SDN,而家你 15 睇番B2/1612,呢個SDN 你見到係4 月7 號,見唔見到? 16 姜世明先生:見到。 17 杜淦堃資深大律師:第一次申請關閉。 18 姜世明先生:見到。 19 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋見到上高左上角都係4 月7 號(English Spoken)畀消防處, 20 文件就話預計完成日期係4 月20 號。 21 姜世明先生:係。 22 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁同時我哋睇番1628,就有嗰份FS251,見到個問題係要整嘅嘢就係 23 再落,(English Spoken)漏水。 24 姜世明先生:正確。 25 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁個(English Spoken )右邊就話要整,(English 26 Spoken)。我哋知道個情況就係消防處其實喺3 月31 號,即係7 日之前就收到 27 FS251 嘅證書,嗰個係宏泰入嘅。 28 姜世明先生:係。 29 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁當然有可能係佢七日之前話冇問題之後出咗問題,但係喺短短七日之 30 內,可能就有--你會見到有第二個承建商就入咗一份嘢,本來話冇事,而家話要整 31 嘅。可唔可以咁講?即係基於嗰個人手同工作量問題,亦都未必有同事會察覺到點 32 解咁嘅,咁講啱唔啱? 33 姜世明先生:同意。 34 杜淦堃資深大律師:係。收到SDN 之後,喺2025 年4 月8 號就去咗宏泰閣去調查,個紀 35 錄就喺 1606 嗰度。咁你見到第 4 段嗰度就講到睇嗰陣“ (English 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十天

60 本謄本由Epiq 編製 Spoken)”,個(English Spoken),即係其實佢去睇其中一個目的就係睇 1 下你真係話壞嗰啲嘢同嗰份form 係咪唔吻合,係咪? 2 姜世明先生:同意,有少少補充,佢係用咗(English Spoken),但係我哋個指引都係 3 叫佢去視察,其實佢係去視察,並且去為佢嘅行動部署做工夫。 4 杜淦堃資深大律師:(English Spoken)同視察有咩嘢分別? 5 姜世明先生:我睇法就係,我哋嘅睇法就係你係搵到有一個可能係違規嘅事項,我哋就去巡 6 查,睇下係咪有違規,去視察就係睇下個實況點樣協助到佢哋做滅火救援嘅工作。 7 杜淦堃資深大律師:好,所以你話佢呢一日去睇,佢收到個SDN,佢去應該係睇啲乜嘢? 8 姜世明先生:就按番4.2.16 嗰個指示,佢要做有多方面嘅,一,佢係為自己,一旦一棟大 9 廈要發生火警,佢嘅部署做一個視察、車輛擺位、水源或者個樓宇註冊用途等等, 10 係要有個了解,亦都讓個車輛嘅其他同事有個了解,此其一。 11 此其二,佢係會同大廈方面係知會佢哋,務必要讓佢哋知係有個咁樣嘅關閉, 12 咁並且呢個知嘅方法係用一個信件係面交畀管理處,咁個信件頭先我哋就睇過,當 13 中除咗提佢損壞嘅事項要及早修妥,亦都提佢「你要搵一個註冊承辦商去跟進啲壞 14 嘅事項」,亦都喺信件入面提到「你要加強個消防安全嘅種種嘅做法」。 15 而個信件裏面亦都會講,喺今次呢個同事佢嘅判斷,係要加一啲替代措施,呢 16 個替代措施就正如而家呢個文件講,係喺個喉轆嗰度係附近就係擺一個滅火筒,咁 17 係擺適量嘅滅火筒嘅。咁亦都當中我重複咗,可能即係有啲話例如叫佢注滿水,又 18 或者係要儘快修妥,去提番大廈方面。咁另外呢個工作都會引申到個消防控制中心 19 加一輛消防車,係加強嗰個出動嘅規模。 20 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係換句話講,其中一個好緊要嘅動作就係,或者目的,就係因為我知 21 道佢有部分系統關閉咗,所以我個巡查要達到嘅目標就係萬一有火警,我要而家就 22 去研究一下到時我要點做。 23 姜世明先生:係。 24 杜淦堃資深大律師:所以你就要落去睇,唔係就淨係靠佢講嘅嘢去(English 25 Spoken)? 26 姜世明先生:係,冇錯,其中一個目的。 27 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔。你同時有被警方詢問過佢睇咗啲乜嘅,我相信你都知道? 28 姜世明先生:係。 29 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想都畀機會你睇一睇,話畀我哋知,你覺得呢個情況係咪你哋嘅常規 30 做法?C3-1/1824 頁,呢個係火警之後,警方問番你哋消防嘅同事當日去做呢個 31 檢查睇過啲乜嘢?你會見到喺1826 頁佢咁講嘅,「你視察時有冇檢查過大廈嘅消 32 防裝置?檢查過臨時擺放嘅滅火筒?你視察時有冇查詢過、檢查過大廈嘅消防栓、 33 消防系統嘅狀態,當時消防喉有冇供水?」佢就話「冇檢視」。「你視察時有冇檢 34 查過個火警鐘係咪正常運作?」佢就話「冇」,「你視察時有冇人--有冇入過消防 35 加壓泵房裏面做檢查?」「冇」。「你視察時知唔知道大廈嗰個系統個總電源關閉 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十天

61 本謄本由Epiq 編製 定係開啟?」「唔知」,「你視察時知唔知道大廈嗰個消防加壓泵系統同警鐘係同 1 一個開關掣?」「唔知」。「你視察時宏福苑管理處有冇同事同你提過上述嘅警鐘 2 係關閉?」「冇」,「你視察時有冇喺大廈當眼處見到關閉消防裝置嘅通告?」佢 3 就話「冇留意」。跟住就話「中華發展工程有限公司或者Victory Fire 有冇提 4 及過,或者你有冇問過佢哋係點樣關閉嗰個系統㗎?」「冇」。我諗對你哋嘅同事 5 公道啲,換句話講,其實馮隊長當然佢冇睇過個消防水缸係咪真係漏水,呢個佢就 6 完全係要(English Spoken)或者要依靠嗰個(English Spoken)。 7 姜世明先生:係。 8 杜淦堃資深大律師:或者個FS251? 9 姜世明先生:係。 10 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係嗰個消防水缸漏水係嗰個(English Spoken)嘅理由嚟㗎嘛, 11 係咪? 12 姜世明先生:係。 13 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁點解佢去現場嘅時候,又冇去睇下個水缸係咪真係有咁嘅情況? 14 姜世明先生:因為佢呢一個視察嘅目的係已經係獲知會呢套系統要修理,並且會一定程度嘅 15 失效,... 16 杜淦堃資深大律師:所以... 17 姜世明先生:...佢嘅目的就係為咗知道咗--唔好意思,為咗知道咗之下去做部署。 18 杜淦堃資深大律師:所以佢--換句話講,你話佢就--所以都係假設咗佢會失效,假設咗佢要 19 整,所以就... 20 姜世明先生:因為有人會通知佢。 21 杜淦堃資深大律師:係。咁佢冇檢查過其他嘅裝置,譬如個喉轆系統、警鐘、消防泵、電 22 掣,係咪用同--水泵同警鐘係咪同一個電掣,咁呢啲都係其實冇要求過佢咁做嘅, 23 你哋? 24 姜世明先生:同意。 25 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,即係佢平時嘅做法都係基本上佢知道某個系統關閉,佢去睇嘅嘢其 26 實係比較有限,可唔可以咁講? 27 姜世明先生:都係佢嘅目--我同意你講法,少少補充就係因為佢睇嘅嘢係要令到佢達到佢今 28 次個出勤嘅目的,佢做到呢個目的係緊要嘅。 29 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁佢哋知道系統關閉,咁好明顯地要有通告話畀啲住戶聽。 30 姜世明先生:係。 31 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁佢去到冇--睇下有冇通告呢個又啱唔啱? 32 姜世明先生:呢個我想(English Spoken)番佢嗰個(English Spoken),因為我 33 哋發信係要求大廈都要張貼嘅,我想睇下佢嘅(English Spoken)有冇講低呢 34 段,定係還是籠統話已經做起。 35 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔係,我諗第一件事我想問下你,佢去到係知道個消防系統已經關閉? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十天

62 本謄本由Epiq 編製 姜世明先生:係。 1 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁消防系統關閉,係咪一定要出通告話畀住戶聽? 2 姜世明先生:係,因為我都發信都係咁叫。 3 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,所以我想問你嘅嘢就係,如果消防系統關閉,通知住戶係一個緊要 4 嘅工作,即係重要嘅一環嚟㗎嘛,係咪? 5 姜世明先生:係,同意。 6 杜淦堃資深大律師:所以如果佢去到連睇都冇睇嘅,係咪唔係符合咗佢去嘅目的? 7 姜世明先生:佢會--一般佢去兩次,第一次佢就要求佢做張貼通告,第二次佢就應該睇下有 8 冇貼出嚟,所以佢係應該要知有冇通告。 9 杜淦堃資深大律師:所以你嘅意思係佢冇睇,可能就係因為嗰陣--嗰次佢係叫佢貼? 10 姜世明先生:我所以都想睇番頭先佢有冇交代佢自己有冇睇到個通告。 11 杜淦堃資深大律師:1606。你睇番1606 頁嘅話,你會見到嗰個(English Spoken), 12 呢個係咪你想睇嗰個通告? 13 姜世明先生:係。呢度佢都冇交代個通告。 14 杜淦堃資深大律師:所以你嘅意思... 15 姜世明先生:唔理想嘅,佢如果能夠交代埋,留意到個通告都喺埋度就更好。 16 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔係,我想問個意思就係,你指唔理想嘅係乜嘢?因為我唔想誤會你嘅 17 意思。 18 姜世明先生:我同意。我哋可以睇番我哋發嗰封信,嗰封信係要求管理處張貼通告。 19 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,呢個係指定動作嚟嘅。 20 姜世明先生:係,係,冇錯。嗰個要求裏面,我哋翻手去睇係應該全部都辦妥,辦妥係應該 21 除咗啲滅火筒喺度,通告都應該張貼埋嘅。 22 杜淦堃資深大律師:換句話講,通告嘅要求,佢去到似乎冇去檢測有冇履行咗,係咪? 23 姜世明先生:我呢度睇唔到佢有,嗄,似乎冇,我都同意嘅。 24 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢度基本上你嘅-- 呢度個要求咁寫,第4 段,你話“ (English 25 Spoken)”,好,佢如果去到佢冇睇過有冇真係個(English Spoken ),點 26 知道個(English Spoken)係咪(English Spoken)?我想問一問你。 27 姜世明先生:佢可以向現場嘅人士詢問,我唔去估佢,但係我認為佢咁樣寫就咁嘅意思。 28 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔係,我哋頭先講咗,你話其實你哋嘅做法就係你(English 29 Spoken)咗嗰個(English Spoken)就係人哋報上嚟嗰個吖嘛? 30 姜世明先生:係。 31 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係佢而家個紀錄就話“(English Spoken)”,咁邊個先啱?其 32 實佢係假設咗定係佢睇咗? 33 姜世明先生:咁佢假設咗,咁喺現場都有現場嘅消息,我估計啫,我唔可以猜想佢裏面嗰 34 個... 35 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔緊要,即係你都係估,你唔知嘅,其實? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十天

63 本謄本由Epiq 編製 姜世明先生:我唔知嘅其實。 1 杜淦堃資深大律師:係。 2 姜世明先生:係。 3 杜淦堃資深大律師:所以但係我哋知道佢似乎個證供就話,佢真係冇去睇過個水缸係咪真係 4 要整,或者有冇漏水呢啲情況? 5 姜世明先生:同意。 6 杜淦堃資深大律師:合理啲講,亦都未必係咁易睇到嘅,可唔可以咁講? 7 姜世明先生:我都同意。 8 杜淦堃資深大律師:係。但係似乎佢冇做嘅嘢就係,佢去到做嘅嘢係比較有限嘅,你哋今日 9 咁去睇,我想問下你,你哋覺得佢現場睇嘅嘢足唔足夠? 10 姜世明先生:喺呢個,我真係答你... 11 杜淦堃資深大律師:我唔係批評佢嗰日去睇嘅嘢少,我而家想問你嘅係,你覺得基於你哋呢 12 個出信要求佢哋大廈做嘅嘢,同埋呢個巡查嘅目的,你覺得佢做嘅嘢足唔足夠? 13 姜世明先生:係,我哋當時嘅機制,我哋係足夠嘅。但係事後回睇番,我哋覺得係要加強 14 嘅。 15 杜淦堃資深大律師:應該加強乜嘢呀咁? 16 姜世明先生:就係呢啲咁嘅關閉通知書,我哋留意到今次嘅情況,我哋係應該有一啲大廈係 17 做一個特定就住呢啲有關閉通知書嘅大廈去巡查,而呢樣嘢我哋都做咗,我哋喺過 18 去2、3 月,就搵咗數百個關閉通知書嘅大廈入去,就喺個泵房裏面試一試佢嘅 19 鐘,並且睇一睇有冇一啲其他嘅不妥嘅地方,咁呢一樣嘢我都會常規咁做。 20 杜淦堃資深大律師:換句話講,可唔可以咁講?嗰日嗰個同事嘅做法同你哋平時嘅做法係一 21 樣嘅? 22 姜世明先生:係。 23 杜淦堃資深大律師:所以你唔係話佢當日做得唔啱,不過經過呢次事件之後,你覺得似乎呢 24 個做法係唔足夠,所以你哋之後就改咗,係咪? 25 姜世明先生:係,按一個行動咁嚟改,即係話有抽一定嘅樓嚟改,可唔可以話普遍性咁改, 26 我都要睇番個人手資源。 27 杜淦堃資深大律師:頭先我哋睇宏福苑呢個案例,我哋提到你哋嗰個(English 28 Spoken),個FPFS,佢應該係做一個持續嘅監察嘅,係咪? 29 姜世明先生:同意。 30 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁你哋有冇指引就話如果個系統係(English Spoken)咗幾多日之 31 後,你哋就會感覺到有關注或者有考慮採取進一步嘅行動? 32 姜世明先生:去到一年。 33 杜淦堃資深大律師:去到一年? 34 姜世明先生:係。 35 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係換句話講一個消防系統(English Spoken)少過一年,你哋一 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十天

64 本謄本由Epiq 編製 般係唔會採取行動嘅? 1 姜世明先生:我哋採取一個監察嘅行動,就係確保嗰個承辦商唔好斷尾。 2 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢個一年係一個慣例定係你哋嘅(English Spoken)裏面寫定嘅黑 3 字白紙嘅指標嚟㗎? 4 姜世明先生:並非(English Spoken),係一個慣例,同埋係嗰個單位嘅一個做法。 5 杜淦堃資深大律師:邊個單位你指? 6 姜世明先生:我轄下消防設施監督課。 7 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢一個一年嘅慣例係幾時開始? 8 姜世明先生:呢個我答唔到你,我可以事後補番畀你。 9 杜淦堃資深大律師:據你嘅認知,你第一次幾時知道呢個一年嘅用法? 10 姜世明先生:大概都係一年前喥。 11 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢個一年慣例係邊個提出我想問,係唔係你去? 12 姜世明先生:並非我提出,但係我有少少補充。因為我睇番一啲數據,事實上係能夠喺一年 13 內辦妥都係絕大多數,但係去到九個月都做唔到,一個六千多個關閉嘅24 年嘅個 14 案總數來說,去到九個月都做唔到都尚有接近一千個。 15 杜淦堃資深大律師:當然呢個係雞同蛋嘅問題,即係如果你係一年之內--一年之後先採取行 16 動嘅話,當然呢個可能會造成其他嘅問題。但我想同你探討嘅就係,你嘅意思係一 17 年之後會採取啲咩嘢行動? 18 姜世明先生:其實喺當時嘅機制,我哋仍然係加緊去向業主--去向大廈方面同埋承辦商去了 19 解。事實上有啲情況係佢哋雙方面嘅了解,我哋當中係要做啲工夫嘅。 20 杜淦堃資深大律師:我完全明嘅,有時勸喻或者去了解咩嘢情況,有彈性咁去處理係應該 21 嘅。但係另外我比較擔心嘅就係聽你咁講,即係就算有個關閉超過一年,呢個唔係 22 提出檢控嘅時間,呢個可能都係進一步勸喻嘅啫? 23 姜世明先生:同意。 24 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁到幾時先應該提出檢控? 25 姜世明先生:事實上檢控與否亦都係有另一個機制喺度做緊嘅,佢關閉同時都會有一個 26 FS251,如果佢嗰個連帶住嘅消防證書喺個損壞部分係提出一樣嘢,佢係屬於我哋 27 視為一個嚴重嘅損壞就冇咁耐,因為嚴重嘅損壞係我哋視為一個係可以最終出到消 28 除火警危險通知書,所以我哋會畀警告信,警告無效我哋會去落場去睇,係唔係真 29 係有一個嚴重嘅損壞作為一個舉證。每年我哋都做二千個呢啲咁嘅巡查,並且會發 30 出千多個呢個消除火警危險通知書,即係話你關閉嘅原因係因為你個損壞係嚴重, 31 我哋係會做一個更加大力嘅措施。 32 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想麻煩你去睇番頭先你哋消防處個政策文件,呢個係我哋頭先睇喺 33 bundle B2/2185 頁嗰個。我頭先帶你去睇嗰個係2190 頁,3.4.5 嗰度你頭 34 先解釋咗畀我哋聽話如果有啲(English Spoken),即係有啲不當行為,咁個 35 (English Spoken)就要話畀FSITF 聽,(English Spoken)。咁呢度佢 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十天

65 本謄本由Epiq 編製 就話好多唔同嘅情況,頭先你就係講話,你嘅理解就係呢啲不當嘅行為底下先要要 1 兩個月之內處理嘅,係唔係咁呀? 2 姜世明先生:同意。 3 杜淦堃資深大律師:如果我哋睇3.4.7 ,呢度咁講個喎,其實你哋嘅部門,呢度就講 4 “(English Spoken)"(「而係通知六十日後,如果係冇第二部分或者第三 5 部分或者FS251 嘅話,係需要採取必須嘅執法行動」),我想問你咩嘢意思呢 6 段?嗰六十日同埋提出檢控,呢度話(English Spoken),據你嘅理解個關係 7 係乜嘢? 8 姜世明先生:個關係... 9 杜淦堃資深大律師:因為你啱啱同我講一年同呢個六十日嘅要求似乎有幾大嘅距離,我想你 10 理解一下。 11 姜世明先生:如果佢關閉嘅原因係冇配合上一個嚴重嘅損壞,如果佢配合咗個嚴重損壞,我 12 哋採取嘅措施係會有警告兼且出一個執法嘅文件。咁今次--唔好講今次先,講番個 13 情況就係佢喺個損壞事項有時講嘅嘢唔係嚴重嘅損壞,甚至佢做嘅唔係一個損壞, 14 係一個提升。 15 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁我想問下,你呢個嚴重損壞同埋提升呢個分野喺呢個政策文件睇唔到 16 嘅,係咪? 17 姜世明先生:政策文件裏面都有(English Spoken)嘅相關嘅(English Spoken ) 18 嘅,亦都有啲例子。 19 杜淦堃資深大律師:或者我哋咁講,宏福苑呢個case 係唔係一個嚴重損壞? 20 姜世明先生:我睇嚴重與否係睇番張251,而251 裏面第三部分損壞佢話係漏水,冇講到係 21 屬於例如冇水等等嘅嚴重損壞,所以我哋係唔清楚佢係嚴重損壞。 22 杜淦堃資深大律師:睇番1626 頁--sorry,1606 至啱。 23 陸啟康法官:但係我唔係好明,姜生。 24 姜世明先生:係。 25 陸啟康法官:嚴重損壞其實同唔係嚴重損壞個系統都係冇水嘅,其實點分呢?因為其實你話 26 嚴重損壞,咁佢漏得嚴重啲,抑或者係都即係嗰個FSI 都係用唔到個喎? 27 姜世明先生:一個水缸漏水唔一定用唔到,主席閣下。水缸冇水我哋就視佢緊要,因為嗰個 28 喉轆要有水,但係水缸漏水,你滿瀉可以漏水,水缸邊、喉漏水都可以漏水,我哋 29 喺個信件裏面或者係通函裏面特別將水缸冇水變成一個例子咁嚟講。 30 陸啟康法官:咁即係話其實呢個同你哋嘅理解唔同,你哋以為佢淨係漏水,其實佢係整緊水 31 缸冇水個喎? 32 姜世明先生:同意。 33 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔係,但係我想你協助我哋嘅,就係其實宏福苑呢個整水缸你哋唔係視 34 為一個嚴重損壞嘅咩? 35 姜世明先生:我哋視佢嚴重損壞或者視佢不嚴重損壞,我睇張251,張251 佢唔係咁寫。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十天

66 本謄本由Epiq 編製 杜淦堃資深大律師:喺而家螢光幕嗰度第二段,你睇一睇最屘嗰行。 1 姜世明先生:睇完。 2 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁呢個係一個嚴重損壞,係咪?你哋嘅紀錄係咁講個喎。即係我明白有 3 好多唔同嘅紀錄,即係一時之間我哋都要睇番啲文件先至講到。 4 姜世明先生:你講緊邊一度? 5 杜淦堃資深大律師:第二段,隻手嗰度(English Spoken)。 6 姜世明先生:同意。 7 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係換句話講,即係主席頭先嗰個問題就可能而家已經變得唔係最重 8 要,因為即係個水缸有冇漏水都好,或者點漏水都好,呢一個case 我哋睇緊係一 9 個嚴重損壞,係咪? 10 姜世明先生:我想講我哋喺呢個紀錄係咁寫,不過我哋個251 就唔係咁記載。 11 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁呢個係睇完個251 先至入,我都係睇番你哋啲紀錄,係咪? 12 姜世明先生:同意。 13 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋首先唔好講話個251 係唔係咁寫先。 14 姜世明先生:好。 15 杜淦堃資深大律師:如果我哋而家講緊嘅係一個嚴重損壞,佢又超過咗六十日都整唔好,你 16 哋嘅政策係唔係都係正如你咁講,其實超過一年你哋先至會採取進一步嘅行動? 17 姜世明先生:並不是。 18 杜淦堃資深大律師:並不是。咁應該幾耐要有行動? 19 姜世明先生:我哋會係六十日後,即係話我哋有個交接,行動組嘅同事去跟進六十日,然後 20 六十日後交畀我哋嘅消防設施監督課,我哋會出警告信,警告信為期我記得係一個 21 月多啲。 22 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁出完警告信會點? 23 姜世明先生:如果仲未收到有效嘅證書,我哋會考慮出消除火警通知書,而出之前我哋會去 24 現場去視察,因為我哋可能會做控方證人嘅,每年我哋--去年為例,去咗二千次呢 25 啲視察,呢個叫巡查。 26 杜淦堃資深大律師:講番頭先我哋喺你嘅政策文件面睇到嗰一項3.4.7 先,呢個就係喺 27 B2/2185 嗰度,呢度咁講嘅,佢哋就話你要(English Spoken )個 28 (English Spoken),如果六十日(English Spoken),呢個(English 29 Spoken)應該就係嗰個(English Spoken),係咪? 30 姜世明先生:同意。 31 杜淦堃資深大律師:或者FS251。 32 姜世明先生:同意。 33 杜淦堃資深大律師:(English Spoken)你就要(English Spoken),係咪? 34 姜世明先生:要考慮呢個執法嘅,係,同意。 35 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係要(English Spoken),即係要考慮? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十天

67 本謄本由Epiq 編製 姜世明先生:(English Spoken),係。 1 杜淦堃資深大律師:如果有收到嘅就搞掂。 2 姜世明先生:對唔住。佢呢個講冇係--呢個係(English Spoken)裏面嗰個延長。我有 3 少少補充,呢個3.4.7 講,呢張(English Spoken)係講張SDN,佢係冇連 4 (English Spoken)都冇,咁即係即係話你根據... 5 杜淦堃資深大律師:連(English Spoken)都冇,係咪? 6 姜世明先生:而家係有,而家佢不斷都有人喺度駁住(English Spoken),佢呢個指引 7 講你入咗畀我,可能續三四次唔再續,斷咗尾。 8 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁呢度就不停十四日入,不停十四日入我哋知道,有兩座入咗就入咗十 9 六次添。 10 姜世明先生:同意。 11 杜淦堃資深大律師:如果我哋睇番呢個(English Spoken),你哋應該最起碼喺某個階 12 段都應該要問下佢哋點解停咗咁多次? 13 姜世明先生:我同意喺當時嘅機制係做呢個決定,之後我哋會喺呢方面作提升嘅。 14 杜淦堃資深大律師:我諗我哋搞番個事實先。 15 姜世明先生:好。 16 杜淦堃資深大律師:喺嗰十六次,唔係每一座都係十六次嘅,即係...(聽不清) 17 姜世明先生:因為有啲9 月先至嚟。 18 杜淦堃資深大律師:有啲9 月先嚟,但係我哋知道最少有兩座係由4 月開始,宏泰閣就4 月 19 7 號,宏志閣就其實4 月7 號個火警當日都一路係有(English Spoken),一 20 張駁一張,所以我哋前幾日先話總共八十五張。我想問下,就係據你嘅理解,對火 21 警之前你哋嘅政策係唔係入咗十六次都唔需要佢哋去解釋點解入咗咁耐未整好? 22 姜世明先生:同意。 23 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔需要嘅? 24 姜世明先生:當時嘅政策係我哋聚焦喺有冇承辦商跟進住,呢個承辦商跟進緊嘅時間會唔會 25 畀我哋除名,又或者會唔會喺中途喺個SDN 嘅最下嗰格寫住「我已經不再跟進」。 26 杜淦堃資深大律師:如果係咁講,第一件事我哋睇番3.4.7,換句話講,如果我每十四日入 27 一個SDN,呢個六十日其實完全冇意思,係咪? 28 姜世明先生:呢個六十日個用意係因為呢度有兩組人跟進,六十日前即係第一個SDN 係行動 29 組,消防局嘅同事,因為量多,咁去到六十日之後就交畀監督課嘅同事,咁個意思 30 係咁樣。 31 杜淦堃資深大律師:你有解過嘅,喺你嘅證人供詞嗰度。 32 姜世明先生:係。 33 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係我想研究嘅反而係另外一樣嘢。 34 姜世明先生:係。 35 杜淦堃資深大律師:因為大家都知道其實你哋畀承辦商嘅要求,就係要儘快恢復個消防系 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十天

68 本謄本由Epiq 編製 統,呢個係第一個大原則,係咪? 1 姜世明先生:係。 2 杜淦堃資深大律師:第二,你閂我哋都採探過喺個聆訊,你盡你嘅考慮可唔可以局部閂,因 3 為越閂得少越好,同埋(English Spoken)? 4 姜世明先生:同意,係。 5 杜淦堃資深大律師:大家都知道閂--你哋自己畀人哋嘅通函都話,其實閂消防系統好大件事 6 嘅,因為呢個可能影響到火警時候大家嘅安全,係咪? 7 姜世明先生:如果完全冇替代措施就更加大件事。 8 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,當然喇,有替代措施可能好啲,但係睇下佢有冇用先嗰啲替代措 9 施,咁我而家想同你探討個問題,就係我哋講緊火警之前政策嘅問題。 10 姜世明先生:係。 11 杜淦堃資深大律師:我知道有改善嘅空間,但係我哋似乎睇到呢度嘅文件,其實嗰個六十 12 日,呢度話如果冇(English Spoken)或者冇(English Spoken),或者 13 冇做完嘅話要考慮(English Spoken),係唔係因為你哋覺得六十日,即係喺 14 政策層面都係一個幾長嘅時間,如果冇合理嘅理由係唔應該多過六十日都搞唔掂, 15 可唔可以咁講? 16 姜世明先生:其實呢個係六十日,係一個我哋留意到都有為數不少喺六十日做起,都有三四 17 成能夠做得起,咁都係一個人手嘅分流,因為監督課嘅人就唔及出面九十幾個消防 18 單位多,所以就係一個分工,咁至於呢個就答番你,呢個六十係咁樣分嘅。 19 杜淦堃資深大律師:我聽你頭先咁講,其實一個延期咗十六次嘅SDN,如果佢不停有新嘅 20 SDN 入嚟,不停咁同你講有承建商跟進,好似呢個case 咁,其實係冇人需要解釋 21 點解做咗咁耐嘅? 22 姜世明先生:同意。 23 杜淦堃資深大律師:證據顯示你哋其實嗰七個月都冇問過人哋點解做咗咁耐? 24 姜世明先生:係。 25 杜淦堃資深大律師:因為其實個要求只係有人跟進就得? 26 姜世明先生:同意,有少少補充。因為我哋一收到SDN 都唔怠慢,即時派人面交封信,所以 27 我亦都係知道大廈方面係知有呢個工程,咁我哋認為都委託承辦商嘅人知有呢個工 28 程,承辦商就一路每十四日都去知個工程要延續,我哋有個認為佢哋雙方係認同咗 29 呢個工程係需時,而事實上做工程,甚至水缸工程我都見過,係七個月、八個月呢 30 啲係有見過。之前都留意過做呢啲工程尤其是漏水,譬如可能大廈方面又要做一啲 31 招標,要做一啲揀承辦商,或者去搵漏水嘅地方,未計工程嘅實際情況,都真係需 32 時。 33 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係換句話講,以你嘅經驗,一個停咗七個月嘅水缸漏水工程,你哋完 34 全唔覺得係有可能係一個不當嘅拖延,因為你見到好多其實成日都做咁耐,意思係 35 唔係咁?, 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十天

69 本謄本由Epiq 編製 姜世明先生:大火之後我哋會加以檢討,但係喺當時我哋嘅機制見到係有呢個實況,而雙 1 方,包括大廈方面都係好知道係委託承辦商跟進緊,就係咁嘅意思。 2 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔係,我諗我想問你嘅問題係--頭先可能我問得唔清楚,你冇答我。 3 姜世明先生:唔好咁講。 4 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想話以你嘅經驗,一個消防水缸漏水嘅工程一共做咗七個月,以你哋 5 嘅經驗,你哋覺得係冇唔妥,亦都表面上高應該唔會有不當嘅延期,因為好多時都 6 係做咁耐,你嘅證供係唔係咁? 7 姜世明先生:正確。 8 杜淦堃資深大律師:主席,呢個可能係一個合適嘅時候。 9 陸啟康法官:押後十分鐘。 10

11 15 時11 分聆訊押後 12 15 時22 分聆訊恢復 13

14 陸啟康法官:請繼續。 15 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,姜先生,你睇番個螢幕,我哋頭先就睇過呢一頁,我哋就知道其實 16 你哋內部嘅紀錄,就話佢呢個工程係一個(English Spoken)。 17 姜世明先生:呢個紀錄係同佢證書不符。呢個隊長問咗呢個承辦商,承辦商咁同佢講,佢喺 18 度紀錄咗,佢將佢定咗做--寫咗(English Spoken ),但係睇番中華嗰張證 19 書,佢證書裏所顯示嘅事項係漏水,喺我哋嘅分類裏面唔係(English 20 Spoken),咁呢度係有個唔理想嘅情況。 21 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係你而家嘅講法就係話其實呢個隊長就唔應該將呢個界定為一個 22 Major Defect,因為你內部分類水缸漏水唔算Major Defect,係咪咁? 23 姜世明先生:水缸漏水唔算Major Defect,咁佢呢個承辦商嘅對話後佢寫咗呢句說話喺 24 度喇,咁唔理想嘅,因為我哋而家暫時係睇證書嚟做,證書因為有人、又有聲明講 25 嘅,因為佢今次係電話講吖嘛即係中華,但係我都會用證書,即係當然要提升嘅方 26 法都係--對唔住呀,即係證書有聲明講到明佢啲嘢係點,佢聲明咗佢唔係冇水,唔 27 係話點樣爛法,佢係話佢漏。 28 杜淦堃資深大律師:你講嘅證書係FS251,係咪呀? 29 姜世明先生:係呀。 30 杜淦堃資深大律師:如果係咁,有另外一個問題我想你幫一幫我哋。 31 姜世明先生:係。 32 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋睇到中華發展喺宏泰閣其實係4 月7 號就入咗個SDN 表示個喉轆 33 系統要關閉。 34 姜世明先生:係。 35 杜淦堃資深大律師:你而家睇到呢個4 月8 號,見唔見到? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十天

70 本謄本由Epiq 編製 姜世明先生:係。 1 杜淦堃資深大律師:所以就之後嗰日就有個咁嘅紀錄,係咪? 2 姜世明先生:係。 3 杜淦堃資深大律師:其實據你所講佢要加番張證書,睇個證書先啱㗎,係咪? 4 姜世明先生:同意。 5 杜淦堃資深大律師:所以嗰個同事其實唔使打去問佢,應該睇佢交嗰張證書就知道係咪 6 Major Defect 喇? 7 姜世明先生:如果佢有證書,但係證書出嘅時間呢,往往都後過呢張SDN。 8 杜淦堃資深大律師:應該十四日內,係咪呀? 9 姜世明先生:係,咁SDN 我要佢廿四小時就去睇。 10 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔。咁證書應該十四日內,咁其實你哋嘅流程應該有個同事就唔係應該 11 打去問佢,應該係睇番入嚟嗰張證書,就去界定呢個係咪一個Major Defect。 12 姜世明先生:咁會更理想,但係佢由於佢即刻要出勤。 13 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔。我想問下就係咁根個程序嚟走嘅話,其實最終呢,因為證書裏面有 14 有關嘅資料,我睇完我就知佢係咪Major Defect,據你所講,係同唔係Major 15 Defect 個做法唔同㗎嘛,係咪? 16 姜世明先生:同意,係。 17 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係我哋都知道佢4 月入張SDN,六個月之後先畀張證書你,咁嗰六個 18 月睇咩? 19 姜世明先生:唔理想,證書咁遲先入,所以我哋都諗--動緊腦筋,點樣令佢電子化咁入。 20 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔係,即係嗰--而家根--喺火災之前個制度,你個證書六個月冇人入,都 21 冇人知道,冇人跟進,係咪咁? 22 姜世明先生:因為個時間差大,比較難跟到,事實嚟㗎呢個,唔理想亦都。 23 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係你個答案係「係」喇,係嘛? 24 姜世明先生:因為我哋... 25 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係就我呢個問題。 26 姜世明先生:係,但係我有補充,就係因為證書入嚟嘅時間即係要經一個輸入,去到個系統 27 之後我哋先至會有個偵測到係咪追番同一個工作流程。答案係嘅嘅,但係有少少補 28 充。 29 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係所以其實喺六個月之內,根本上就冇人去睇到張證書,而知道呢個 30 係咪一個Major Defect? 31 姜世明先生:同意。 32 杜淦堃資深大律師:所以喺呢個case,我哋講咗咁耐係咪(English Spoken),呢個都 33 冇意思,因為冇咗張證書吖嘛,係咪?...(聽不清)亦都係一個... 34 姜世明先生:但係呢一刻--但係佢呢一刻咁樣判斷係幫咗佢做一樣嘢,就係佢要要求咗佢做 35 (English Spoken)。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十天

71 本謄本由Epiq 編製 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔。即係你講緊...(聽不清)將錯就將? 1 姜世明先生:因為滅火筒,因為有一啲--我唔想講將錯就錯,但係起碼有一個SDN,事實上 2 有唔少嘅SDN,佢因為可能係提升,我比喻說佢有個後備泵要換,其實佢個主泵都 3 仲用得。咁喺呢方面呢,如果我哋成套系統都尚用得,係一啲後備力量未齊,我哋 4 就係冇必要對方加一啲替代措施,替代措施都係一啲成本嚟嘅,即係大廈方面都會 5 覺得我個系統都仍然運作到,係一啲提升啫,咁所以喺替代措施上面我哋都有個判 6 斷喺度。 7 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想問你嘅就係呢,因為梁先生星期三嗰陣講就講,就話到10 月消防 8 追嘞,頂唔順,所以入番張FS251。呢個講法你覺得同你嘅認知係咪應該都係一樣 9 呀? 10 姜世明先生:我問勻晒,冇人追過佢。 11 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔。即係咁係咪仲衰呢?因為到六個月之後都冇人知道冇入到張 12 FS251,佢自己主動入番嚟? 13 姜世明先生:呢個事實上張(English Spoken)佢有責任要入㗎,但係我哋個系統而家 14 唔完善,我都想好追貼到佢第十五日入,我就會告佢,我最理想,係。 15 杜淦堃資深大律師:我明,但係我想釐清個事實先,因為佢話點解要過咗咁多個月入呢,就 16 係有人追佢,咁本來當然衍生個問題就係點解咁多個月先追佢喇。 17 姜世明先生:係。 18 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係你啱啱同我哋講就係你問勻晒,其實過咗咁多個月,都冇人追過 19 佢,咁呢個唔係一個更大嘅問題咩? 20 姜世明先生:唔理想㗎,但係如果要追251,一年三十萬張,真係每一個人去逐樣追,唔理 21 想,我希望用系統去提升,今到呢件事完善㗎,因為你搵人手去追,逐張逐張追, 22 追三十萬張,真係追得呢張,追唔到第二張,唔理想呢樣嘢,實在係要提升嘅。 23 杜淦堃資深大律師:因為代表政府嘅孫大律師呢,其實都問過Victory Fire,佢話6 月 24 16 號已做咗份FS251,其實應該十四日之內交,梁生嗰陣嘅答案就話嗰個底畀咗 25 佢,只係fax 過去係10 月啫。咁嗰個底畀咗--6 月畀咗佢呢個講法你又同唔同意 26 呀? 27 姜世明先生:我搵唔到佢畀過我。 28 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔。呢個亦都同你同事嘅證供亦都脗合,因為我哋睇到高級消防隊長蔡 29 列邦(譯音)佢落咗份口供畀警察,佢就話最早提交嘅日子其實都係10 月嘅啫, 30 至於點解佢10 月無端端要整番張FS251,你個講法就係其實大家都唔知,因為問 31 勻咗都冇人追過佢,係咪呀? 32 姜世明先生:係,我唔估佢點解要咁做喇。 33 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔。即係換句話講,有啲明顯唔合規嘅情況出現咗,因為你要求十四日 34 內入番張FS251,呢個喺你哋本身個設計裏面係有好重要嘅目的,學你話齋睇番張 35 FS251 我咪知道其實嗰個工程嗰個有幾咁--嗰個細節,你又可以睇到佢係咪一個 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十天

72 本謄本由Epiq 編製 Major Defect。而你地有(English Spoken)嘅行動嘅,咁如果聽你咁講, 1 每一次你哋收到張SDN 嘅時候,好多時都收唔到FS251,係咪? 2 姜世明先生:有收到、有收唔到。 3 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔,但係收唔到嗰陣,亦都冇一個機制去追喎,係咪呀? 4 姜世明先生:我哋嘅痛點就係佢入咗嚟,首先就有個郵遞時間,其次就係嗰個輸入嗰個時間 5 都頗耐,因為量多,嗰個(English Spoken)所謂都多嘅。可能... 6 杜淦堃資深大律師:正如我哋呢個case 睇到嗰個(English Spoken)甚至乎係幾個月 7 嘅去到。 8 姜世明先生:仲有好多因為佢會有用寄失嘅原因,呢個痛點我都係事實想緊辦法去提升。 9 杜淦堃資深大律師:我明呢個係痛點,我諗大家都同意呢件事情要處理。 10 姜世明先生:係。 11 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係我想問下你就係事實上高,喺呢個case 上面睇到嘅文件,你呢個 12 痛點喺過往,可能寄咗份form 入嚟,三個月喺系統裏面都睇唔到,即係嗰個 13 (English Spoken)嘅嚴重情況係去到咁,係咪? 14 姜世明先生:呢一個因為佢去到10 月先畀番我,就引證唔到啱啱你講呢樣嘢,以我嘅理 15 解,而家個(English Spoken)由一張form 擺低,直至到輸入系統,可能都 16 要一個月。 17 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔,咁換句話講,個痛點就令到其實你哋嘅同事睇電腦系統根本上就唔 18 知道最準確嘅消息? 19 姜世明先生:會稍微後嘅時間先知。 20 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想講就係,我哋就頭先睇咗只係你見到呢度,係宏泰閣個情況。其實 21 八棟個情況據你哋後來嘅觀察都係大同小異,可唔可以咁講?只不過係佢入嗰個時 22 間唔同。 23 姜世明先生:可以咁講。 24 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔。而你哋嘅同事收到個SDN 之後去做嘅實地嘅考量亦都係同我哋睇咗 25 嘅一樣嘅,其實佢哋去睇下有冇躉到滅火筒。我唔想帶你睇每一份警察嘅口供。 26 姜世明先生:係。 27 杜淦堃資深大律師:因為其實警方係就每一位嘅同事都問咗同樣嘅問題。我哋見到嘅就係其 28 實佢哋全部都係話冇錯,去到佢係冇研究過其他系統,冇睇過個警鐘著唔著,冇睇 29 過其實係咪真係做緊嗰啲工程,佢主要去睇係個(English Spoken),睇個滅 30 火筒。 31 姜世明先生:同埋睇佢點樣部署救火、救人。 32 杜淦堃資深大律師:係。 33 姜世明先生:同埋通知居民。 34 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔。我哋睇番你嗰個(English Spoken )本身,如果去番 35 B2/2185,我哋去睇3.4.5(a),我明白你頭先嗰個演繹。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十天

73 本謄本由Epiq 編製 姜世明先生:唔。 1 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢個同我哋嘅嗰個理解可能有啲唔同,但係我相信你都會同意,如果有 2 延誤嘅話,去理解個延誤係乜嘢,點解整咁耐,呢個都係相當重要嘅,係咪? 3 姜世明先生:同意。 4 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔。而亦都唔想誤解你嘅講法,喺你哋現有嘅(English Spoken) 5 裏面,你哋嘅計劃裏面,即係你哋嘅措施裏面,其實一年之內都唔需要去解釋點解 6 做咁耐? 7 姜世明先生:除非個大廈方面係有意見,因為呢個係佢哋雙方嘅協約嚟嘅,公司合約。 8 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係如果有個(English Spoken)不斷咁同你講話做緊㗎嘞,但係 9 叫咗我哋做,係做咁耐嘅,一年內,你哋都唔會要求進一步... 10 姜世明先生:當時嘅機制係咁。 11 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔。呢個--我睇均你呢個(English Spoken),其實呢個冇可能係 12 個(English Spoken)嘅原意,係咪?一年之內都唔問人哋點解做咁耐? 13 姜世明先生:(English Spoken)嘅原意,少少補充,你話冇可能,我少少補充就係, 14 我哋係對於大廈同承辦商用合約,大家協約一個工程,並且大廈要執行一啲數額較 15 大嘅工程,佢事實上連埋招標,連埋行政,我地個實況就係喺六千個個案裏面,能 16 夠喺九個月做起嘅有,但係做唔起嘅都有成千個個案,呢一千個個案,我哋係𠱾佢- 17 -我哋今天之後看會有好多措施。但係當時嘅機制,如果我哋係話你哋嘅合約即使咁 18 樣同意都好呢,我哋都係要大力咁樣要迫令你要及早做呢,我都同意係好嘅,但係 19 對方都會係有唔少嘅市民都會覺得係都要好難去克服呢啲工程上嘅困難,咁當時個 20 機制係咁,之後我哋會檢討。 21 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔。個問題就係當然施工嘅人或者有關嘅物業管理公司去做呢啲嘅工 22 程,同相關嘅居民嗰個唔係同一個單位喇,居民本身可能亦都冇咁嘅能力去逼到有 23 關嘅公司或者法團又好、物管公司又好,儘量去加速,呢個係你哋嘅考慮喇,係 24 咪? 25 姜世明先生:呢個我唔係好清楚答到你佢哋之間嘅事。 26 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係我覺得你會相--我相信你會同意嘅,其實普羅大眾係依賴消防處, 27 你哋嘅法規去令到有關嘅承辦商遵守有關嘅原則,去儘快咁處理好呢啲嘅工程,係 28 咪? 29 姜世明先生:消防處有責任,同意嘅,但係當中都有啲團體,就係承辦商同埋管理公司呢, 30 都可以有一啲份額去做到你頭先講嗰樣嘢。 31 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔嗯。而喺呢個案例裏面,我哋睇到嘅就係,你話你哋唔覺得係一個 32 Major Defect,因為只係漏水。 33 姜世明先生:同意。 34 杜淦堃資深大律師:漏水本身係唔係一個Major Defect,呢個唔係絕對嘅,睇下漏到點 35 嘅啫,係咪? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十天

74 本謄本由Epiq 編製 姜世明先生:我哋有個冇水呢個例子出咗嚟。冇水就好明確...(聽不清) 1 杜淦堃資深大律師:或者唔夠水都係問題。 2 姜世明先生:或者個水缸冇水,例子都擺埋出嚟。 3 杜淦堃資深大律師:或者好少水。 4 姜世明先生:可以咁講。 5 杜淦堃資深大律師:係喇,咁所以亦都唔可以一刀切咁話,喂,係Major Defect、唔係 6 Major Defect 嘅話呢,有好唔同嘅做法,因為有時咁樣樣都會出現問題。 7 姜世明先生:更嚴謹嘅分類係更好,我同意嘅。 8 杜淦堃資深大律師:喺呢個case 其實個水缸漏水,令到佢冇水,同埋個水缸漏水, 9 (English Spoken)即係冇其他事情,其實應該都係冇分別嘅,因為正如主席 10 所講你點樣都係要停咗個系統,你哋冇人去研究過係咪因為漏水而唔影響個系統個 11 運作,呢樣嘢係冇人考慮過㗎嘛,係咪? 12 姜世明先生:我哋睇到「漏水」呢個字眼咪冇將佢判斷成--即係如果你「漏水」呢個字眼我 13 哋就唔會視佢為冇水,咁你話點樣將來再嚴謹啲,我可以加強。 14 杜淦堃資深大律師:因為就咁講漏水都可以令到系統停㗎嘛,係咪? 15 姜世明先生:咁講漏水,例如滲漏,或者一啲喉嘅漏,或者滿溢嘅漏都係漏。 16 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔。所以咪應該去問囉,係咪? 17 姜世明先生:如果可以有了解更深係好嘅,機制上。 18 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係呢個case 係完全冇人問過,同唔同意?你消防處係完全冇一個人 19 問過。 20 姜世明先生:同意。 21 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋睇番而家我哋面對呢個問題,我諗我哋大家都明白之前嘅情況唔理 22 想,要改善,我想問下你嘅就係我哋見到宏福苑有啲單位有十幾份SDN,成個屋 23 苑,就中華發展入嘅SDN 有八十五份,個時間同個量似乎喺你哋嘅機制裏面,係唔 24 足以令到你哋響起任何嘅警號,同唔同意? 25 姜世明先生:而家,事後看來同意㗎。 26 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔係,我係問緊你喺出事之前呀,你哋冇機制去detect 或者去監察呢 27 個係咪一個問題? 28 姜世明先生:如果佢連帶住嗰份251 寫嘅事幹係trigger 咗我哋去監察呢我哋有,但係今 29 次我哋冇啟動到。 30 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔係,但係你啟動唔到㗎,如果六個月都收唔到份FS251,... 31 姜世明先生:呢個係... 32 杜淦堃資深大律師:...又冇人追嘅點啟動啫?係咪先?即係冇可能啟動到喎。 33 姜世明先生:承辦商唔入251 畀我哋,係我哋要克服嘅挑戰嚟㗎,呢樣嘢亦都有工夫做緊, 34 同意嘅你所講呢樣嘢,佢唔入嘅話,我哋係難搞嘅。 35 杜淦堃資深大律師:我諗我哋冇--我諗大家講嘅嘢係同一樣嘅,我只係想搞清楚就係喺以前 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十天

75 本謄本由Epiq 編製 嘅機制裏面,無論入幾多份SDN,喺整個屋苑裏面,我哋見到八十五呢個數可能好 1 大,無論你入連續就一個屋苑,一棟大廈入幾多份,似乎如果去唔到一年,你哋都 2 係冇任何機制去跟進呢啲情況嘅? 3 姜世明先生:同意。 4 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔。而你哋而家就覺得唔理想,係咪? 5 姜世明先生:同意。 6 杜淦堃資深大律師:所以其實喺一年之內,據你咁講任何消防工程似乎延誤嘅時間如果唔超 7 過一年,應該係唔會有檢控嘅,係咪? 8 姜世明先生:純粹係因為佢工程並且有註冊承辦商已經跟進緊,同意嘅。 9 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔。而冇機制去跟進同埋亦都冇機制去問更加多嘅解釋,呢一個當然係 10 之前制度嘅不足,但係據你所講係人手嘅問題,因為你就咁搵人input 啲data 11 都搞幾個月,係咪呀? 12 姜世明先生:資料輸入呢個係要提升嘅,但係少少補充喇,就係我講少少,我哋而家好似就 13 係我哋最擔心係冇人做年檢,第二,就係當有人做緊年檢呢,佢嘅損壞事項冇人跟 14 都係好擔心嘅。呢兩個因為你冇人做年檢呢,就唔知啲嘢壞成點,喺24 年我哋告 15 咗九百幾傳票,25 年告咗一千三百幾票,就係因為佢哋冇人做年檢。但係當做咗年 16 檢,有啲嘢喺損壞事項呢,我哋都擔心㗎,直至幾時為止呢?直至有承辦商承包呢 17 啲工程做去做,因為你冇承辦商跟進,嗰啲損壞係唔會自己好番,所以有承辦商跟 18 進呢,我哋就畀佢去跟進,並且我哋發信畀業主去跟進損壞事項,事實上呢啲水電 19 嘅屋宇裝備係要維護嘅,唔維護會壞嘅,所以其實你搵承辦商去將啲壞嘅嘢整番 20 好,長遠都係希望套系統更可靠,呢樣嘢係無可厚非,我哋要做嘅就係當修理時我 21 哋畀啲替代措施,同埋提醒居民,呢個就係個政策嘅全面嘅部分,同意嘅,阿杜資 22 深,我哋係要提升。 23 杜淦堃資深大律師:我明,即係我聽你咁講,其實嗰個係一個問題嘅--個priority 嘅問 24 題,個優次嘅問題,你哋擔心嘅就係好多時根本上冇人做年檢。 25 姜世明先生:係。 26 杜淦堃資深大律師:所以你要處理咗嗰啲問題先。第二就係冇人去跟進,即係做咗年檢嘞, 27 冇人去做嗰個工程。 28 姜世明先生:...(聽不清)係嘞。 29 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁所以變咗呢啲情況似乎有人跟進,但係佢歎慢板呢,就變咗喺嗰個優 30 次處理嘅問題上高就比較即係可能冇同樣嘅關注。 31 姜世明先生:同意。 32 杜淦堃資深大律師:因為你哋覺得第二啲問題大啲。 33 姜世明先生:同意。 34 杜淦堃資深大律師:我諗我哋唔使再去討論,即係大家都明白唔理想,係咪? 35 姜世明先生:同意,唔。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十天

76 本謄本由Epiq 編製 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想問你另外一個範疇嘅問題。你喺你嘅最新嘅證人供詞都有解過嘅, 1 你知道喺呢件案件裏面,我哋睇到嘅就係,個講法就係話用個消防水缸嚟做一個臨 2 時嘅食水缸,跟住將個食水缸去維修,根據你嘅認知,呢個做法唔常見,係咪? 3 姜世明先生:唔常見。 4 杜淦堃資深大律師:亦都唔啱規例,係咪? 5 姜世明先生:除非得到批准,但係都唔啱規例。 6 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔,個個原因就係因為第一,食水缸同消防水缸個容量可能好唔同,係 7 咪? 8 姜世明先生:其中一個原因,同意。 9 杜淦堃資深大律師:第二,就係好多其他替代辦法,例如你提過可以用啲纖維缸代替食水 10 缸,係咪? 11 姜世明先生:少少補充,纖維缸呢個就我唔記得自己有冇講,因為消防缸嘅用水係愛嚟滅火 12 救援,但係如果當中有人用咗佢嚟做食水,咁呀會慢慢少或者係可能佢補水嗰個時 13 間會唔及時,咁呢個唔係理想嘅。 14 杜淦堃資深大律師:所以如果佢哋係喺申請停止個消防裝置嘅時候,喺佢哋報上嚟嘅資料裏 15 面,就話我哋要停好耐,因為要用嚟代替呢個食水缸,呢個你哋應該唔會批准,係 16 咪呀? 17 姜世明先生:如果我哋知,我哋唔批准,今次佢今次(English Spoken)就係剔一格話 18 關閉,冇將呢啲資料畀我哋。 19 杜淦堃資深大律師:等一等我。姜先生,時間有限,你喺第五份口供裏面其實處理咗一啲 20 Victory Fire 同China Status 佢哋一啲嘅解釋,解釋咗點解佢哋唔合理 21 嘅,咁嗰啲稍候我諗我哋陳詞嘅時候會處理。 22 姜世明先生:好。 23 杜淦堃資深大律師:嗰啲比較瑣碎,我唔想麻煩你。主席,我冇其他嘅問題。多謝你,姜 24 生。 25 姜世明先生:唔該。 26 陸啟康法官:係,唔該,ISS。 27 何卓衡大律師:係,主席,你好,我代表置邦嘅。我哋有啲關於牽涉到管理公司嘅消防案全 28 議題想同姜先生探討下。係,姜先生,你好。 29 姜世明先生:你好。 30 何卓衡大律師:我係代表管理公司嘅代表大律師,咁就住管理公司而言,我哋有啲牽涉到我 31 哋嘅消防安全議題想同你探討。 32 姜世明先生:好。 33 何卓衡大律師:正如你今朝所講,縱使一個物管公司係委託咗一個註冊消防承辦商,佢都有 34 一定嘅監督嘅責任,所以我想就住呢個履行監督責任所牽涉到嘅消防安全議題,我 35 想同你探討下。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十天

77 本謄本由Epiq 編製 姜世明先生:好。 1 何卓衡大律師:第一個有關嘅議題,今朝其實杜資深大律師有講過,就係關於嗰個保養守則 2 嘅適用版本,如果麻煩我哋睇你第四份供詞嘅第18 到19 段,就係WS8/1916 到 3 1917,係嘞,咁基本上18 段你就係講關於鍾傑文先生佢嗰個說法,19 段你就回 4 應,就話其實就係唔啱嘅,就唔係話年檢就一個制度,維修就另一個準則嘅。 5 姜世明先生:同意。 6 何卓衡大律師:我想問嘞,根據你嗰個說法,係咪就係話如果係年檢嘅時候係用番當時起樓 7 個時候個守則,應該就係1982 年8 月嗰個第六修訂版本嗰個守則呢? 8 姜世明先生:同意。 9 何卓衡大律師:係,咁呢度都講喇,就係話點解用呢個咁樣嘅要求,就係根據嗰個守則 10 1.14 段,如果我哋好快睇嗰個保養守則,如果睇A3/第20 頁,你會見到其實係 11 有兩個守則,一個係個設備守則、一個保養守則。我想問我咁樣理解啱唔啱呢?設 12 備守則係講關於嗰個消防裝置嘅規格,而嗰個保養守則就係講嗰啲裝置嘅檢查、測 13 試、保養所需遵守嘅事項。 14 姜世明先生:同意,前者仲有少少就係消防裝置嘅提供,即係有定係冇嗰樣嘢。 15 何卓衡大律師:係,我明白。我想帶你睇,因為你嗰個供詞講到1.14 段,呢個1.14 段就 16 喺109 頁嘅,你會見到首先佢第個一分段係講嗰個設備守則,今朝都有提到係個有 17 適當版本,咁你個說法就係話起樓嗰時嗰個版本就係個適當版本。 18 姜世明先生:同意。 19 何卓衡大律師:係,但係就住嗰個檢查,其實我哋有個疑問就係下面羅馬數目字I 嗰度係冇 20 講適用版本㗎喎,咁係咪你個說法都係話縱然冇提到,其實都用番當年起樓嗰個守 21 則呢? 22 姜世明先生:同意。 23 何卓衡大律師:羅馬數目字III,佢有講就係話消防處長年檢核對表所載嘅相關規定,,呢 24 一個羅馬數目字III 呢一段,係咪就係話你而家要求香港所有嘅樓宇,不論佢幾時 25 落成,都要有一個年檢核對表嘅基礎呢? 26 姜世明先生:係,冇錯。 27 何卓衡大律師:係,呢度我有啲唔係好明嘅地方,就係1982 年嗰個版本當然就係冇呢一個 28 年檢核對表嗰個要求,因為正如你所講係21 年先有㗎嘛。 29 姜世明先生:係。 30 何卓衡大律師:其實係咪你都係用緊最新嗰個守則去要求做年檢係需要遵守嘅事項呢? 31 姜世明先生:我解番。核對表裏面有嘅相關嘅就做,有一啲例如係較後較新嘅樓先要求喺嗰 32 個系統有嘅部件,咁佢舊樓冇嘅話,咁呀寫「不適用」就可以。 33 何卓衡大律師:明白。呢度我好快咁同你探討,因為我哋睇番法例嗰個規定,如果你好快咁 34 睇B2/1802,你會見到第十嗰個係嗰個檢查標準,如果落少少,我哋睇成段。咁一 35 嗰度就係話處長可以憲報公告嗰個守則。第三嗰度就係話嗰個守則需要每年喺憲報 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十天

78 本謄本由Epiq 編製 度刊登一次。其實呢個咁樣嘅法例嘅規定係咪就係話其實係應該就算年檢或者檢查 1 嘅話,係應該用最新個版本而唔係嗰個舊嘅版本呢? 2 姜世明先生:佢刊登呢本COP,而COP 裏訂明咗頭先你講嗰啲嘢吖嘛。所以我嘅理解,總之 3 係年檢你要用核對表,呢個係因為個核對表,即係21 年先推出,但係你個--如果 4 係舊樓不適用嘅部分就填不適用。 5 何卓衡大律師:明白,所以你嘅說法你都係用最新嘅版本,不過最新版本就講番舊有嘅適用 6 版本係做嗰個檢查嘅標準? 7 姜世明先生:係,冇錯,係。 8 何卓衡大律師:明白。咁我純粹想同你好快咁探討下,即係其實係--即係我哋聽到一啲註冊 9 消防承辦商都有一啲嘅混淆,就係應該用邊個版本,咁你會唔會都同意其實而家呢 10 一個咁樣嘅--呢個寫法其實都係會可能會產生一啲混亂,或者係大家有啲無所適 11 從? 12 姜世明先生:譬如我今早所講,寫得越清楚越好,不過我哋同承辦商業界嘅交流係緊密嘅, 13 暫時冇聽過佢哋喺呢方面有疑問,我一年同佢開四五次會,我哋同業界有呢個交流 14 嘅研討會,冇人提出過頭先你剛才講嗰樣嘢。 15 何卓衡大律師:明白。就住呢個議題嘅最後一條問題,即係撇除究竟適用版本係應該用邊一 16 個嘅準則而言,其實消防處有冇考慮過係需要檢討年檢係用一個--喺宏福苑而言, 17 係用一個四十年前嘅標準,呢一個其實係咪一個合適嘅做法?因為時代會變,安全 18 系數會提高,咁消防處對於呢個議題有冇考慮過? 19 姜世明先生:呢個用最好、最強嘅版本,係我都同意係好,但係呢個涉及話將個舊樓要提 20 升,咁其實我哋喺香港法例第502、572、636,就將啲舊樓提升方面,廣大市民 21 喺呢方面都有唔少挑戰要克服,亦都要按條例先可以讓佢提升到。 22 何卓衡大律師:呢個我都明白嘅,就住呢樣嘢,或者我哋轉去下一個相關嘅題目,我哋如果 23 去睇-- 就住呢個火警警報系統嘅保養事宜,尤其是係之前杜資深大律師講過嘅 24 3.8.2,呢個係文件夾A3/136,咁呢度見到如果最頂嗰度,呢一個係講火警偵測 25 嘅核對表,首先我想問,因為我想睇呢一個題目唔係好清楚,呢個核對表內容係唔 26 係適用於年檢嘅時候㗎? 27 姜世明先生:適用。 28 何卓衡大律師:適用嘅,係。如果我帶你去睇呢一個3.8.2,其實今日都杜資深帶你睇過㗎 29 嘞,147 嗰度,咁最頂嗰度就基本上就係話電掣,呢啲咁樣嘅關於火警警報系統嘅 30 電掣,都係要係有啲標籤嘅。咁C 嗰度就都提過就係有個警告,呢個電掣同時控制 31 火警警報系統電源。咁我關注呢一點,就係你都會明白到,今次呢一個火災基本上 32 係一個唔合資格人士喺一個唔小心嘅情況之下,熄咗位於消防加壓泵房嘅刀掣,我 33 想問你,你會唔會同意,呢個刀掣都係會係呢一段所提及過嘅一個電掣? 34 姜世明先生:同意。 35 何卓衡大律師:係,咁當然,你個說法就係話,因為可能呢一個版本當時起樓嘅時候係唔適 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十天

79 本謄本由Epiq 編製 用,所以你就要返去睇一啲宏福苑究竟係咪有呢個咁嘅規定。 1 姜世明先生:睇完嘞已經。 2 何卓衡大律師:係,咁你嘅答案... 3 姜世明先生:係真係唔適用。 4 何卓衡大律師:係唔適用嘅,係。但係你會唔會同意事實上,喺今次呢個火災呢個事件上, 5 如果有呢個警示喺度,係好大機會可以防止一啲唔合資格人士唔小心熄咗個總電掣 6 嘅情況出現? 7 姜世明先生:如果佢會睇警示嘅話。 8 何卓衡大律師:係,如果有個好大嘅警示,好--因為你嗰個警示其實都見到呢個說法係有個 9 規定,個警示嗰個尺寸係幾多㗎嘛,即係如果你喺個刀掣隔籬有個警示,就係話呢 10 一個電掣係會同時控制嗰個火警警報系統嘅,其實呢一個係會減低一啲不合資格人 11 士唔小心熄咗... 12 姜世明先生:有幫助,同意。 13 何卓衡大律師:係,明白。咁呢個就係引申到頭先我帶出個問題,版本個問題,因為頭先你 14 都講過而家諗緊嘅一啲改善嘅做法就係一啲立法,就係話變咗個審批制度,但係審 15 批制度其實唔能夠杜絕一啲情況,就係話一啲唔合資格人士係唔小心入咗個泵房 16 度,唔小心熄咗個掣,因為佢根本上可能係唔知道呢一個係一個消防裝置嚟㗎嘛。 17 係,所以會唔會有個考慮嘅情況就係話,其實就住呢一個段落所有規定,其實係強 18 制適用於香港所有嘅樓宇,不論佢嘅建成年份,呢個會唔會去考慮或者檢討? 19 姜世明先生:任何減少相類近嘅可能性嘅措施,我哋都會考慮同檢討嘅。 20 何卓衡大律師:明白,係。咁我如果去睇另一個議題,關於呢個關閉消防裝置嗰個規定,好 21 快咁如果帶你去睇同一個文件夾--唔係,應該係文件夾A3/186,咁有一個特別注 22 意事項嘅,我其實想你睇第2 段,咁就基本上就係話,如果收到嗰個SDN 嘅時候, 23 咁就有--要作一個風險評估,咁就住呢個段落,其實你嘅第一份供詞有解釋過嘅, 24 咁其中一個段落今朝已經帶你睇過,我就唔需要再帶你睇,就6.3 段,你就話基本 25 上就係收到之後二十四小時之內就會派人去做一個所謂(English Spoken)。 26 我想帶你去睇第6.8 段,呢一個係第113 頁,係,咁你基本上你嗰個說法,即係 27 我唔讀出嚟。但係你基本個說法就係話,如果係一啲消防裝置關閉延期申請嘅話, 28 你係唔會去再落去做一個檢視嘅,因為你個說法就係話,咁其實嗰個風險評估做 29 咗,其實個情況都係唔會特別變得更加壞。呢個係咪你個解釋點解做一個--喺一個 30 延期嘅情況之下係冇做一個進一步嘅風險評估? 31 姜世明先生:正確。 32 何卓衡大律師:係,但係我有個問題想問你,即係你關閉一個消防裝置十四日,或者係做一 33 個延期做二十八日,同你關閉一個消防裝置六個月所衍生嘅風險都會幾唔同㗎嘛, 34 你會唔會同意呢一點? 35 姜世明先生:如果冇替代措施,同埋大廈管理不善,係會嘅。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十天

80 本謄本由Epiq 編製 何卓衡大律師:但係就算你今朝所講,你話就算個替代措施都好,即係你而家講話關閉咗個 1 消防栓系統,你就會有一個--就算你關閉咗消防警報系統,你個替代措施就係加滅 2 火筒,咁滅火筒嗰個效用同你嗰個火警警報系統,你不能夠同...(聽不清) 3 姜世明先生:同意,呢個我哋都諗緊方法提升,但係我哋提醒大廈方面都有信件畀咗佢,有 4 其他措施要求大家去跟進。 5 何卓衡大律師:係,唔係,我純粹係想問,就住呢一段而言,會唔會有個情況就係考慮,有 6 個檢討就係話就住呢個延期申請,係咪再作出一個新嘅風險評估,呢一度都可以再 7 檢討或者係有... 8 姜世明先生:呢個會檢討,並且會做一個好大嘅檢討,因為會用修例嚟檢討。 9 何卓衡大律師:明白。我再去講另一個題目,就係關於呢一個火警警報器嗰個保險絲嗰個問 10 題,咁今朝其實已經帶--杜資深已經帶你睇過嗰個報告,咁我就唔想帶你睇報告, 11 想睇你嗰個第一份嘅供詞,WS1/140 頁第10.11 段,我想你去淨係睇呢一個宏志 12 閣呢一個嘅情況,因為宏志閣嗰個情況,就係佢係冇被大火影響嘅,你個說法都係- 13 -即係你如果睇第五行嘅話,就話“(English Spoken)”(「咁嗰個結構似乎 14 係會冇破壞,亦都係可以運作嘅系統。」)但係縱使係咁嘅情況之下,嗰個情況就 15 係開番個刀掣,其實都係冇火警警報系統嘅。咁我當然都明白其實消防處係會做進 16 一步嘅實驗。但係我想問下呢啲宏觀啲嘅問題,如果嗰個保險絲係斷咗嘅話,其實 17 係咪即係話,嗰個總掣係開定閂都好,其實嗰個警報系統係唔會著咗嘅?係唔會可 18 以(English Spoken)到嘅? 19 姜世明先生:以我理解,係。 20 何卓衡大律師:係。咁我想問你,以你嘅經驗,喺香港嘅樓宇嚟講,啲火警警報系統嘅保險 21 絲斷,呢個情況係唔係一個常見定係一個罕見嘅情況? 22 姜世明先生:罕見。 23 何卓衡大律師:罕見嘅情況。咁你可唔可以同我哋講下,以你嘅經驗而言,其實一啲可能嘅 24 原因係會係咩嘢嘢? 25 姜世明先生:答你唔到。 26 何卓衡大律師:明白,明白。但係你都會純粹係就住你嗰個--而家呢一段嘅段落所講,即係 27 你都唔能夠排除一個可能性,就係話其實宏志閣當年嗰個刀掣有開定閂都好,喺大 28 火當日其實都可能係著唔到嘅,你唔能夠排除呢個可能性嘅? 29 姜世明先生:排除唔到。 30 何卓衡大律師:明白。我最後一條問題,就係今次呢個悲劇都係反映咗管理公司係需要更多 31 嘅消防處嘅指引,去點樣主動咁發現同埋處理維修工程引起嘅消防安全議題,特別 32 係當呢啲工程係有其他嘅承辦商,包括咗一啲消防承辦商去處理。咁你今朝有同我 33 哋講過呢個物監局有啲指引,但係嗰啲指引通常都係一啲比較概括性嘅指引,就唔 34 係啲好實質嘅指示點樣去做? 35 姜世明先生:係。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十天

81 本謄本由Epiq 編製 何卓衡大律師:咁你哋消防處會唔會同意,就住消防處係咪應該畀物管公司更多實質指引呢 1 個範疇,係需要作出檢討嘅? 2 姜世明先生:同意,但有少少補充。其實我哋推行呢個樓宇消防安全特使計劃,同埋而家已 3 經將佢變成一個樓宇應急先鋒計劃,就係專係為物管嘅從業人員而設,其實現今成 4 六千幾個從業員,參加咗我哋個課程,我哋就係希望透過呢啲課程,將啲物管人員 5 對於消防安全嘅應該認知嘅知識係加強,我都好鼓勵大家去參與嘅。 6 何卓衡大律師:感謝你,姜先生。 7 陸啟康法官:Victory Fire。 8 林樂夫大律師:係,主席,唔該晒。 9 係,姜Sir,有啲問題想問你嘅,係,咁就想集中同你傾下,就係第四份證人 10 口供,WS8 嘅1914 頁,第14 段。係,咁呢度你喺第三句開始,就你提到 11 Victory Fire 就喺宏福閣做一個年檢嘅執修工程,係咪? 12 姜世明先生:係。 13 林樂夫大律師:跟住你第五句,所以你就話“(English Spoken)”。 14 姜世明先生:唔。 15 林樂夫大律師:呢一個講法其實就係喺你2026 年4 月6 號第四份證人口供你先講出嚟,係 16 咪?即係話要Victory Fire 去通知消防係第四份先... 17 姜世明先生:正確。 18 林樂夫大律師:係,咁你嘅理解,其實你就係基於嗰個嘅通函1/2021,係咪? 19 姜世明先生:係。 20 林樂夫大律師:咁我想同你睇一睇,就係你另一位同事石毅俊呢個消防隊長嘅證人口供,就 21 係C3-3/2241 ,係,咁我哋頂見到係石俊毅(石毅俊?)個消防隊長,見唔見 22 到? 23 姜世明先生:見到。 24 林樂夫大律師:係,咁我哋去到落少少,第二段,咁石先生就係佢話「我現時駐守消防處牌 25 照及審批總區消防設施監督課,平日主要負責查消防裝置承辦商是否合消防法 26 例」,見唔見到? 27 姜世明先生:同意。 28 林樂夫大律師:咁就係我哋喺聽你同杜資深大律師討論嘅時候,都提咗好多次消防設施監督 29 課嘅。 30 姜世明先生:係。 31 林樂夫大律師:係咪?咁佢就係即係你旗下嘅同事,係咪? 32 姜世明先生:同意。 33 林樂夫大律師:係,咁就就住有一個問題,喺2246 頁,問同埋答,第五題嘅,咁就問就係 34 「如果Victory 公司在執修消防系統的時候,發現消防警報系統被關閉,當日是 35 否需要即時處理消防處?」咁佢嘅答案係「任何承辦商在維修期間,如發現任何消 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十天

82 本謄本由Epiq 編製 防系統已處於關閉狀態,均有責任即時確認該關閉是否按規定向消防處通報」,見 1 唔見到? 2 姜世明先生:見到。 3 林樂夫大律師:咁呢度--即係呢個石Sir 講嘅嘢,同你喺第四份證人口供第14 段講嘅係有 4 唔同嘅,你同唔同意先? 5 姜世明先生:唔一樣。 6 林樂夫大律師:係,因為其實石Sir 呢個都係你哋消防局嘅前線同事,咁佢亦都係執行即係 7 有關SDN 嘅事務。 8 姜世明先生:係。 9 林樂夫大律師:咁喺呢位同事石Sir 嘅理解,其實Victory Fire 係只需要確認有冇人即 10 係入SDN 就得個囉喎,係咪? 11 姜世明先生:佢唔係只需要,佢係有需要,佢冇講埋佢仲有需要做嘅其他嘢。 12 林樂夫大律師:咁佢嘅答案就冇特--即係佢嘅答案淨係得一句,我哋見到,係咪? 13 姜世明先生:係,冇錯。 14 林樂夫大律師:咁其實會唔會係你嘅理解,對於嗰個通函1/2021,同你其他消防局嘅同事 15 都有唔同嘅理解?即係關於Victory Fire 應唔應該通知消防。 16 姜世明先生:我嘅理解就係我哋好一致。 17 林樂夫大律師:但係我哋見到就起碼你同另一位同事係即係消防設施監督課嘅理解唔同,你 18 同唔同意? 19 姜世明先生:佢未講晒佢要做嘅嘢出嚟啫。 20 林樂夫大律師:好,咁跟住就我哋去睇一睇,今朝你提過英文版本嘅通函1/2021,咁就係 21 B2/1303,係,咁我就想睇下面嗰個(b)點,(b)點,係,因為你提過(b)點 22 係適用於Victory Fire 嗰個情況,係咪? 23 姜世明先生:係。 24 林樂夫大律師:咁我哋睇一睇佢呢度講“(English Spoken)”(「需要做呢個書面通 25 知,如果係因為呢一個消防系統係有損壞而要關閉。」)-- 佢有(English 26 Spoken),咁中文版本係嚴重失效。其實係唔係呢一個(b)適用嘅情況就係話嗰 27 個消防系統係壞咗,先適用㗎嘛,係咪? 28 姜世明先生:我諗探討呢個問題比較容易就係睇埋佢後面講咩嘢,佢後面就係話,一旦發生 29 火警時,成棟樓係會畀佢係(English Spoken),咁就容易啲理解,佢例子都 30 有,例如冇水。 31 林樂夫大律師:而係--因為佢個(b)呢個點針對嘅係,當個系統係壞咗,並非就係好似而 32 家宏福苑個情況,就有另一個消防承辦商去主動因為大維修閂咗成個刀掣,所以 33 (b)呢一點喺呢一個情況係不適用嘅,你同唔同意? 34 姜世明先生:我唔同意。 35 林樂夫大律師:好,跟住就我哋再繼續睇,就係--不如我哋睇番,仲有中文版本,咁就去 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十天

83 本謄本由Epiq 編製 A3/207,A3/207 頁,係,咁呢個就係1/2021 通函嘅中文版本,咁我哋睇呢一 1 頁嘅底部,第4 段嚟嘅呢一版嘅,咁呢度講就係喺出呢個1/2021 嘅時候,其實經 2 過幾個步驟嘅,你見到就係第二句就係「消防處首先有個內部檢討」,見唔見到? 3 姜世明先生:同意。 4 林樂夫大律師:跟住之後就同消防工程公司嘅商會同埋業界係有個諮詢,見唔見到? 5 姜世明先生:同意。 6 林樂夫大律師:跟住就檢討工作之後,先出呢一個1/2021 嘅,係咪? 7 姜世明先生:係。 8 林樂夫大律師:好,跟住就我哋去--一陣間我會再睇埋2026 嗰度,我再提呢個嘅重要性。 9 咁跟住就我哋去睇一個附錄一,係212 頁,都係A3 文件夾嘅,咁呢個就係嗰個嘅 10 通函附帶我哋成日睇到嘅SDN 嘅樣版,係咪? 11 姜世明先生:係。 12 林樂夫大律師:係,咁呢度我哋會見到,「喺本公司確認以下受影響嘅消防裝置需要通知或 13 連續通過二十四小時關閉」,其實呢度所講嘅就係通函入面講,208 頁(a)嘅情 14 況,係咪?我哋可以一併睇埋208 頁。係,同一個文件,上208,唔該。 15 姜世明先生:同意,係。 16 林樂夫大律師:係,A 就係因為廿四小時或者過夜,咁就要剔呢一格吖嘛? 17 姜世明先生:係。 18 林樂夫大律師:跟住就我哋見到,就仲有另一個喺個212 頁,佢呢張form 就有以下持牌註 19 冊所將會影響到,咁就有啲嘅例子。 20 姜世明先生:係。 21 林樂夫大律師:咁呢個就係B 同C 都提過嘅,係咪? 22 姜世明先生:係。 23 林樂夫大律師:因為C 就係呢啲持牌嘅處所,B 就話整棟大廈,或C 分段提及嘅。 24 姜世明先生:係,係。 25 林樂夫大律師:咁就即係嗰格係適用B 或者C? 26 姜世明先生:係,冇錯。 27 林樂夫大律師:但係冇特別好似喺呢張附錄1,212 頁,冇一個特別係好似你喺證人口供, 28 第四份證人口供第14 段講,就發現到有失效,咁就去通知呢個情況個喎,喺呢張 29 form 冇呢個加個剔,或者冇一個方法去通知消防處個喎,係咪? 30 姜世明先生:即係喺個SDN 度冇? 31 林樂夫大律師:係。 32 姜世明先生:有,個格咪剔佢嗰個系統囉。 33 林樂夫大律師:即係你講緊二--「通宵及連續超過二十四小時」嗰個格,係咪? 34 姜世明先生:係。 35 林樂夫大律師:但係嗰個係A 嚟㗎嘛,即係208 頁嘅A 情況嚟。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十天

84 本謄本由Epiq 編製 姜世明先生:呢個係--唔係A、B、C 嘅問題,而係你有九個系統,究竟有邊一個會廿四小 1 時都失效。 2 林樂夫大律師:我明白你講法嘅。跟住再繼續討論212 頁。 3 姜世明先生:嗄。 4 林樂夫大律師:咁就係--你第一部分,關閉嗰個消防承辦商就要去簽署、填寫,係咪? 5 姜世明先生:係。 6 林樂夫大律師:咁個原意喺成個通函就係話,呢一個消防承辦商就要開番嘅時候,就要填第 7 三部分吖嘛,係咪? 8 姜世明先生:係。 9 林樂夫大律師:咁就變咗其實喺即係2025 年11 月19 號,即係當Victory Fire 知道 10 有其他嘅消防承辦商係已經掛咗牌,即係通知咗消防處,係已經閂咗個系統,其實 11 呢一個SDN--即係呢個版本呢個格式,同埋成個通函其實不適用呢個情況,你同唔 12 同意? 13 姜世明先生:唔同意,佢可以用得到。 14 林樂夫大律師:尤其是就我哋可以睇一睇就係第A3/210 頁,咁嗰個特別注意事項第一段, 15 就呢度講其實就要通知消防處個裝置關閉,就只可使用附錄1,即係啱啱我哋睇 16 212 頁嗰個表格。 17 姜世明先生:係。 18 林樂夫大律師:咁第二句就話「任何其他各種書面或口頭通知,概不接受」嘅,見唔見到? 19 姜世明先生:見到。 20 林樂夫大律師:即係SDN 係唯一嘅方法,係咪? 21 姜世明先生:係。 22 林樂夫大律師:咁啱啱就喺較早,你就提過,就話Victory Fire 當日其實就可以有幾個 23 方法,其中一個你話提過係打電話畀消防局,係咪? 24 姜世明先生:係,我講過。 25 林樂夫大律師:咁喺個通函又冇特別提話係個--打畀--個溝通渠道係點樣,但係就--但係 26 可--應該--我哋睇番個特別注意事項,其實你消防局嗰個嘅溝通同嗰個承建商,其 27 實你都係希望係用SDN 去溝通,係咪? 28 姜世明先生:同意,如果係真係為咗呢個SDN 嘅緣故。 29 林樂夫大律師:同埋成個通函,我哋可以--即係其實--睇下你同唔同意,個原意其實就係當 30 消防承辦商去做一個工程之前,其實係早啲喺閂嘅系統之前已經通知消防局,係 31 咪?係一個未來式嚟㗎嘛?即係係通知咗先去閂㗎嘛,係咪? 32 姜世明先生:同一時間都--我哋都接受。 33 林樂夫大律師:所以變咗喺Victory Fire 呢個情況就係有--佢已經知道11 月19 號係 34 有其他人係因為大維修閂咗,所以呢個SDN 呢個機制其實不適用個喎,同唔同意? 35 姜世明先生:不同意。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十天

85 本謄本由Epiq 編製 林樂夫大律師:跟住我哋就去睇一睇2026 年第二份通函,C3-1/1985 頁。都係中文版本 1 嘅,咁呢個你見到個標題係2/2026,係咪? 2 姜世明先生:係。 3 林樂夫大律師:咁我哋呢份係直情係你簽發㗎嘛,係咪? 4 姜世明先生:同意。 5 林樂夫大律師:係,咁就我哋可以睇下,就係希望唔使讀啲字,但係睇下你同唔同意?就係 6 其實你係喺嗰個SDN 有關嗰個嘅機制,你係想重申1/2021,並非有啲新嘅嘢出現 7 㗎嘛,係咪? 8 姜世明先生:附加更加多資訊落去,要人去跟隨。 9 林樂夫大律師:附加係講緊B 嗰度啫,1986 啫,係咪? 10 姜世明先生:係。 11 林樂夫大律師:如果A 嗰度,其實就係--我哋可以睇A,咁呢度承辦商一直有責任,一直賦 12 有責走,在關閉消防通訊第1/2021,之後就最--第三句,「本通函並非新增要 13 求,而是重申該項既有責任」,見唔見到? 14 姜世明先生:係。 15 林樂夫大律師:咁其實即係喺呢一個A 段落入面,呢個2/2026 通函係冇新嘢㗎嘛,係咪? 16 姜世明先生:成份通函有新嘢,唔係冇新嘢。 17 林樂夫大律師:好,咁我哋繼續睇。咁我諗我想睇嗰個具體事例嗰度,咁其實啱啱--都係喺 18 1985 頁底嗰度,係,直到1986 頂嗰度,咁今朝你都--姜Sir 你都提過,就係閂 19 嗰個承辦--閂一個消防系統消防嘅承辦商入,喺個SDN 嘅時候,其實佢都要評估 20 旦一個系統,會唔會影響另一個系統㗎嘛,係咪? 21 姜世明先生:同意。 22 林樂夫大律師:呢個就係你A 嘅事例一同埋二嗰個重點嚟喎,係咪? 23 姜世明先生:同意,係。 24 林樂夫大律師:咁你寫呢個通函就係因為呢一次嘅宏福苑嘅火災,係咪? 25 姜世明先生:係,冇錯。 26 林樂夫大律師:咁而你喺呢度,我哋講番宏福苑,咁就係話因為(English Spoken)中 27 華,咁就係去入SDN,係閂一個消防系統,咁變咗其實就係應該係由中華係去評估 28 會唔會閂埋另一個系統,係咪? 29 姜世明先生:呢張通函係個目的就係讓承辦商知有呢個更明確咁再提醒大家有呢個風險,唔 30 係淨係中華,個個都係咁。 31 林樂夫大律師:我哋講番如果適用喺今次不幸嘅事故,咁就係宏福苑,咁我哋已知事實就係 32 入呢個閂消防系統嗰個SDN 嗰個消防承辦商就係中華。 33 姜世明先生:係。 34 林樂夫大律師:(English Spoken)吖嘛。 35 姜世明先生:係。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十天

86 本謄本由Epiq 編製 林樂夫大律師:咁應該就由佢去評估究竟係閂一個定閂埋消防警鐘嗰個系統,係咪? 1 姜世明先生:不完全同意,因為佢個SDN 淨係入一個系統嘅關閉,佢淨係入一個系統嘅關 2 閉,咁當然佢關閉嘅時間佢就係應該淨係關嗰一個,就唔應該關埋另一個。 3 林樂夫大律師:但係你呢個通函嘅意思就係提醒埋消防承辦商,就係要評估埋會唔會閂埋其 4 他吖嘛? 5 姜世明先生:係,同意,係。 6 林樂夫大律師:咁而成個1/2021 再加埋2/2026,個原意就係你消防局係唔預期有兩個消 7 防承辦商去入兩張SDN 嘅,係咪? 8 姜世明先生:呢樣嘢都有見過個喎。我唔可以答你有冇預期,但係呢個通函1/2021 都係涵 9 蓋性咁樣講畀唔同嘅承辦商聽。 10 林樂夫大律師:其實你同唔同意,即係1/2021 又好,2/2026 都好,其實兩個通函都涵蓋 11 唔到你喺第四份證人口供第14 段講,要求Victory Fire 去--因為發現其他人 12 閂咗即係一個消防系統,而且係掛埋牌,係都要需要通知消防局呢一個情況? 13 姜世明先生:我唔同意,我覺得佢要通知。 14 林樂夫大律師:咁你同唔同意喺呢兩份通函都有啲唔清晰嘅地方? 15 姜世明先生:我唔同意。 16 林樂夫大律師:咁你同唔同意即係啱啱我哋睇過有個關於諮詢個內部檢討程序,其實如果係 17 好似你喺第四份證人口供第14 段咁講要求一個消防承辦商喺發現其他消防承辦商 18 已經掛咗牌嘅同時都要通知消防局入SDN,呢個情況其實都應該要再一次作一個業 19 界嘅諮詢,同唔同意? 20 姜世明先生:我長期都會持續檢討我哋啲通函同埋安排,而同業界諮詢我持續都做,所以我 21 同意你嘅講法嘅。 22 林樂夫大律師:咁所以諮詢完業界之後,應該再出多一份新嘅通函講明畀所有嘅消防承辦商 23 聽,喺咁嘅情況都要入一份SDN? 24 姜世明先生:將呢啲通函講得更清楚嘅事情我會繼續做。 25 林樂夫大律師:甚至再寫--即係設計另一份嘅表格係等呢個你啱啱提--即係喺14 段,第四 26 份證人口供提出嘅要求去畀消防承辦商有一個更清晰嘅渠道通知消防局,係咪? 27 姜世明先生:同意。 28 林樂夫大律師:我諗最後一個問題,就係較早前你就同杜資深大律師就討論過一個政策嘅, 29 就係B2/2203,就係底部,你哋兩位討論過情況5 同情況6,係咪? 30 姜世明先生:正確。 31 林樂夫大律師:情況6 就係而家現有因為就係剔咗一格即係消防栓嗰個系統,就係隔樓層就 32 要有滅火筒,係咪? 33 姜世明先生:係。 34 林樂夫大律師:如果係連個警鐘都閂埋就情況5,係咪? 35 姜世明先生:係。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十天

87 本謄本由Epiq 編製 林樂夫大律師:咁即係話其實如果喺SDN 入面,消防處知道剔咗兩格,即係消防栓剔咗,再 1 剔埋個火警警報系統都閂埋嘅時候,其實最終嘅結果喺現有政策嚟講,其實都係加 2 多一倍嘅滅火筒,係咪? 3 姜世明先生:同埋居民都會知,因為通告話畀居民知個警鐘唔響。 4 林樂夫大律師:係,唔該晒。我冇其他問題,唔該。 5 陸啟康法官:另外,梁秉... 6 關有禮大律師:主席,(English Spoken)梁先生。 7 陸啟康法官:係。 8 關有禮大律師:姜生,你好。 9 姜世明先生:你好。 10 關有禮大律師:以我嘅理解呢,一個供水缸其實就係消防裝置一部分嘅,係咪? 11 姜世明先生:你講邊個裝置? 12 關有禮大律師:即係消防裝置。 13 姜世明先生:消防栓/喉轆系統係,自動灑水系統係。 14 關有禮大律師:因為個水缸就係提供水畀啲消防栓及消防喉轆系統,係咪? 15 姜世明先生:消防栓/喉轆系統係有水缸,係,正確。 16 關有禮大律師:關於維修呢啲消防水缸,例如防漏嘅工程同埋即係維修佢嘅石屎,一個水缸 17 嘅石屎咁樣,其實消防處係不需要一個註冊嘅承辦商嚟親自處理個維修,係咪? 18 姜世明先生:如果呢個水缸係消防栓/喉轆系統嘅一部分,消防栓/喉轆系統係要個承辦商 19 嘅監督下跟進整套系統,包括埋水缸。 20 關有禮大律師:係監督,即係要管理住即係啲其他承辦商嚟真係實質上做嗰個... 21 姜世明先生:因為就住個註冊制度係公司嘅,咁所以佢要監督佢嘅員工。 22 關有禮大律師:即係英文就叫(English Spoken),係咪? 23 姜世明先生:係。 24 關有禮大律師:所以你同唔同意其實消防處其實都認同即係個維修個水缸,其實就個註冊承 25 辦商未必真係要親自嚟做嗰個維修,不過要監住嗰個維修工程? 26 姜世明先生:因為承辦商係公司,所以公司佢都係要有佢嘅認可人士,佢要做好個監督嘅責 27 任,一般要監督好自己嘅員工去做呢啲嘢,唔該。 28 關有禮大律師:咁未必係自己嘅員工,即係可能係另外一個承辦商,不過佢要監督住? 29 姜世明先生:同意,係。 30 關有禮大律師:所以你同唔同意俗稱其實都要分工合作,就係即係一個註冊嘅承辦商例如要 31 負責,如果需要填寫個SDN,同埋另外一個部分就係一個承辦商真係處理維修嘅工 32 程,當然頭先我所講就係即係嗰個註冊承辦商係要監督住咁嘅情況,係咪? 33 姜世明先生:佢要監督佢自己嘅員工。 34 關有禮大律師:你同唔同意就係其實一個註冊消防裝置承辦商,其實都有情況係要倚賴其他 35 承辦商,即係真係處理個水缸嘅維修,提供資料畀佢哋嚟處理件事呢? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十天

88 本謄本由Epiq 編製 姜世明先生:唔同意,我見佢全部都係自己搵自己嘅員工,或者佢即係搵自己承辦商,喺佢 1 自己能夠(English Spoken)到嘅人裏面去做。 2 關有禮大律師:咁你嘅定義(English Spoken),其實即係例如要落去嚟監住啲工人嚟 3 做嘢咁樣,係咪? 4 姜世明先生:佢要就住個--特別係例如你其中一個工程,就係檢查究竟有冇事呢工程,就更 5 加要由合資嘅人士去做。 6 關有禮大律師:如果有個情況就係其實個註冊承辦商根本就冇嗰個專業知識關於呢啲水缸 7 嘅,咁就算我當佢真係落去嚟監督個工程,佢都要倚賴即係例如問「個水缸仲要整 8 幾耐?」咁樣,你同唔同意? 9 姜世明先生:承辦商有個合資格人士,佢知識唔全面,佢可以向四方八面徵詢,但係最終都 10 係佢具資格,譬如說你哋係2 級嘅承辦商,佢有水喉匠做個合資格人士,水喉匠應 11 該對個水缸嘅熟悉有一定嘅認識嘅。 12 關有禮大律師:麻煩我哋睇一睇bundle R3/第1035 頁,以我理解,呢個係一個列表,就 13 係顯示即係消防系統裝置及設備相對應合適嘅消防裝置嘅承辦商個級別嘅。 14 姜世明先生:正確。 15 關有禮大律師:係,其實喺第1 頁嗰度,其實我哋睇到下面嗰度寫住--唔好意思,我睇緊英 16 文就(English Spoken ),就即係個供水缸,其實就睇得到就係不需要第1 17 級、第2 級或第3 級嘅,係咪? 18 姜世明先生:如果淨係供水缸,係嘅,淨係供水缸。 19 關有禮大律師:所以點解我一開始講就係話當然個水缸會牽涉其他消防嘅裝置,例如即係好 20 似我哋講(English Spoken)咁樣,係咪? 21 姜世明先生:我唔係好全同意,因為唔係水缸牽涉其他裝置,係其他裝置牽涉水缸。 22 關有禮大律師:Okay。我哋睇得到就係其實處理呢個供水缸就不需要第1、第2、第3 級別 23 嘅? 24 姜世明先生:同意,我有少少補充,想讓委員會知呢樣嘢點嚟,就係事實有好多樓宇佢落成 25 嗰陣時,呢啲水缸都係一啲水泥工程,佢嗰陣時係未曾裝配啲屋宇裝備,如果唔喺 26 呢度釐清呢啲,包括消防𨋢嗰啲唔係消防承辦商,咁倒石屎嗰刻都要搵個承辦商戙 27 喺度。就係為咗免卻呢啲咁嘅誤解。嗰個水泥工程嘅水缸做好咗,到佢真係要 28 (English Spoken)番成套嘅消防栓、喉轆,嗰個就一定要承辦商,咁個用意 29 就係免生疑問,因為呢度有四項系統,例如啲樓梯、消防御用嘅樓梯都可能有啲人 30 以為係要承辦商,咁呢度有四樣嘢我哋講清楚,係淨係單一,如果佢講緊嘅一個水 31 缸,冇喉黐住,冇消防栓、喉轆,係真係唔使,咁呢個意思係咁用嘅。 32 關有禮大律師:Okay。其實如果我哋個水缸好似喺呢個情況度,我哋當就係一個水缸根本就 33 唔係遞SDN 嗰個承辦商,註冊承辦商遞呢個SDN 嚟做維修嘅,其實如果真係做嗰 34 個維修工程,其實係一個資格嘅承辦商嚟嘅,不過唔係填嗰個SDN,其實得唔得嘅 35 呢? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十天

89 本謄本由Epiq 編製 姜世明先生:如果做嗰個承辦商,佢係要關閉,就應該佢本人去入個SDN 嘅。 1 關有禮大律師:點解呢? 2 姜世明先生:因為通函係咁講嘅,你整你關閉,你入SDN 我諗都係明確嘅呢件事個原因。 3 關有禮大律師:如果唔係佢整,不過佢有落到去場嚟睇嘅情況,咁又得唔得呢?佢填SDN 得 4 唔得? 5 姜世明先生:我諗而家個SDN 通函都清楚,就係該承辦商去辦理個關閉維修,就由該承辦商 6 去入SDN,咁你剛才講我唔係好明點樣第二個,我唔明。 7 關有禮大律師:不過一個註冊嘅承辦商,即係喺消防局嘅角度嚟睇,佢哋倚賴真係落地盤嗰 8 啲人士嚟提供資料畀個承辦商,其實都係好合理,係咪? 9 姜世明先生:承辦商佢四方八面攞資料幫助佢做嘢嘢,我唔反對嘅,無可厚非嘅。 10 關有禮大律師:主席,我睇呢個時間--我而家去緊另外一個範疇,因為其實都有幾多嘢我都 11 要(English Spoken ),因為都睇得到就有第五呢個證人嘅口供我都要處理 12 嘅,唔知呢個係唔係一個適合嘅時間? 13 陸啟康法官:你仲要問幾耐?你話畀我聽。我想問孫大律師,仲有冇其他人先?仲有冇其他 14 涉事方?我諗孫大律師,係唔係你都會... 15 孫靖乾資深大律師:主席,我就唔會長嘅,我諗我都係可能兩個問題。 16 陸啟康法官:兩個問題? 17 孫靖乾資深大律師:係。 18 陸啟康法官:我唔好叫姜Sir... 19 杜淦堃資深大律師:主席,我哋提議如果委員唔介意嘅話,因為姜Sir 嚟一晝,對於佢嚟講 20 都係唔方便,如果大家方便嘅,可以今日處理埋。 21 陸啟康法官:我哋希望你繼續問埋。 22 關有禮大律師:我可以繼續嘅。 23 姜Sir,我想睇睇你個口供WS9/1937 至到1949,呢個係你第五份證人口 24 供,麻煩睇睇第8 至10 段。第8 段嗰度你基本上就係話不能接受,即係好似第 25 10 段嗰度,你其實話不能接受一個RFSIC 簽個SDN,不過跟住就係另外一個 26 RFSIC 嚟做個工作,係咪? 27 姜世明先生:係。 28 關有禮大律師:咁嚟支援你呢個說法--呢個結論,其實你就有(English Spoken)到去 29 呢個--呢個通函1/2021 年。 30 姜世明先生:係。 31 關有禮大律師:其實佢就係--呢個通函2021 年其實就喺bundle B2/1302、1311 睇得 32 到嘅,我哋今日都睇過。其實你就(English Spoken)咗最緊要就係個RFSIC 33 (English Spoken)。 34 姜世明先生:係。 35 關有禮大律師:咁個原因就係因為佢應該係要落去檢查,即係落場檢查嘅工程? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十天

90 本謄本由Epiq 編製 姜世明先生:係。 1 關有禮大律師:我哋擠開今次呢個事件咁樣,就係其實如果一個有能力嘅註冊承辦商真係有 2 落去檢驗個消防工程嘅,其實如果我哋當佢呢個註冊承辦商係有準確地提供啲資料 3 畀簽SDN 嗰個註冊承辦商,咁其實個問題係咩嘢呢? 4 陸啟康法官:我唔知你嘅問題係乜嘢喎。 5 關有禮大律師:哦。 6 陸啟康法官:即係我想問你,你哋簽咗SDN,即係佢話人哋提供資料畀佢咁就得,咁佢冇責 7 任? 8 關有禮大律師:唔係,唔係,我絶對從來冇講過話簽SDN 嗰個冇責任嘅。或者姜Sir,我都 9 要講清楚先。 10 姜世明先生:好。 11 關有禮大律師:呢個委員會其實之前都有問過梁生,如果簽咗個SDN 有冇責任嘅,梁生係話 12 有責任嘅。 13 姜世明先生:係。 14 關有禮大律師:我哋用呢個(English Spoken)嚟講先,就係簽SDN 嗰個係有責任嘅。 15 姜世明先生:係。 16 關有禮大律師:不過如果佢係倚賴另外一個註冊嘅承辦商嚟提供資料畀佢,我當呢個承辦商 17 係有能力嘅,咁其實有冇問題呢咁樣? 18 陸啟康法官:呢個問題唔係佢答個喎其實,係咪呢?即係有冇責任呢樣嘢其實。 19 關有禮大律師:主席,我唔係問緊佢有冇責任,即係消防處容唔容許即係一個註冊承辦商提 20 供真係簽? 21 陸啟康法官:佢容許,不過你要負責。 22 關有禮大律師:係要負責囉。 23 陸啟康法官:即係我諗一定係咁嘅,你簽你可以點樣做都得,咁但係你係唔係想話呢個係合 24 法,呢個係情有可原,你個... 25 關有禮大律師:其實我係想問姜Sir,消防處其實會唔會接受呢樣嘢嘅啫? 26 姜世明先生:主席閣下,我試下回答。 27 陸啟康法官:好。 28 姜世明先生:真係好唔理想嘅,因為佢通函裏面入SDN 係連帶住一系列嘅責任,係佢要去跟 29 進嘅。你都講如果佢搵嗰個都係一個承辦商,由嗰個承辦商入,咁相關以後嘅SDN 30 嘅跟進,佢嘅續期,並且裏面嘅通告,所有嘅要佢跟嘅事項就可以跟得到,但係你 31 而家做就佢做,出就你出,咁就唔理想,好唔理想。 32 關有禮大律師:係唔理想,不過因為點解我會問呢個問題,就係因為我哋睇到呢個通函咁 33 樣,就話其實係最適合嘅人士就係入呢個--即係去落場檢驗咁樣,嚟簽呢個SDN 34 咁樣,咁最適合,咁佢唔係話必須吖嘛,即係我個意思就係,咁其實係咪有情況係 35 有其他人係可以填呢個SDN? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十天

91 本謄本由Epiq 編製 姜世明先生:冇。 1 關有禮大律師:咁睇番你頭先證人口供第11 段嗰度,咁你呢度就係--你就話“(English 2 Spoken)”(「呢度就係話呢一個嘅--亦都係加強咗呢個嘅消防裝置關閉通知書 3 係應該由註冊嘅承辦商係被聘請做呢個工作去填寫。」)--個註冊承辦商要即刻通 4 知你哋呢?個原因係咪因為--咁第一樣嘢就係所以消防局係有個承辦商係可以聯絡 5 到,如果有事咁樣,係咪? 6 姜世明先生:SDN 最下面嗰度有個方格,就話我--個承辦商自己話「我唔再跟呢個工程」, 7 我哋見到就即係好似我頭先之前我同杜資深講,就變成一種冇人跟嘅一個損壞,我 8 哋就緊張。因為有人跟仲好啲,起碼都會有人跟落去,咁係咁用嘅。 9 關有禮大律師:起碼有人會負責任,係咪? 10 姜世明先生:係,係。 11 關有禮大律師:第12 段至15 段,你就有提及過啲守則咁樣。咁就個原因就係點--你就解 12 釋番就係點解其實個註冊嘅承辦商係其實要落去-- 落場嚟睇同埋(English 13 Spoken)嗰啲工作。 14 姜世明先生:係。 15 關有禮大律師:係所以就係其實可以即係提供即係(English Spoken)嗰啲(English 16 Spoken)咁樣,係咪? 17 姜世明先生:係。 18 關有禮大律師:咁我同一個問題,就係如果一個有能力嘅註冊嘅承辦商,真係係有落到去睇 19 個情況嘅,跟住匯報番畀真係簽SDN 嗰個承辦商,咁個問題又係咩嘢? 20 姜世明先生:個問題我剛才都提過,就其實如果有第二個已經係執行做緊維修工作嘅承辦 21 商,其實(English Spoken)應該係佢自己入。 22 關有禮大律師:唔。Okay,咁頭先你--杜資深其實就問咗你某啲問題,就係關於即係一個 23 (English Spoken)嘅機制咁樣。 24 姜世明先生:係。 25 關有禮大律師:其實你有答到就係話,即係其--即係有--個處分其實有分開,就係可以係即 26 係暫時(English Spoken)佢。 27 姜世明先生:除名。 28 關有禮大律師:除名,同埋即係可能會有紀律處分咁樣? 29 姜世明先生:兩個啫,一係除名,一係譴責。 30 關有禮大律師:咁你哋就話消防處--即係一間公司一有呢個紀律處分之後,其實你哋都會更 31 加警惕,同埋佢會巡查呢啲註冊嘅... 32 姜世明先生:係,有個違例記分制會增加我哋抽查佢嘅頻次。 33 關有禮大律師:其實你都知道就係(English Spoken)之前喺2022 年都有畀人處分 34 過,係咪? 35 姜世明先生:係。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十天

92 本謄本由Epiq 編製 關有禮大律師:係。咁處分完之後,有冇更加檢驗巡查(English Spoken )嗰啲 1 (English Spoken)? 2 姜世明先生:有,佢個記分裏面係有四分,咁我哋喺同--剛才我同大家報告,我哋有一千次 3 嘅抽查,係抽一啲有分嘅承辦商,我哋總共抽咗佢四張(English Spoken)出 4 嚟睇,佢係喺西九龍度做其他嘅一啲工程,咁嗰度睇唔到啲咩嘢出嚟。 5 關有禮大律師:我冇其他問題。 6 陳健波議員:阿姜助理處長,我想問一問,就有啲人就話業界係有人去專做掛牌嘅,即係淨 7 係填啲表,因為行政方面嘅原因,我想問消防處知唔知係咪真係有呢啲事情? 8 姜世明先生:我冇聽過呢個說法,因為我想同陳議員報告,就係其實例如張SDN,嗰個行政 9 嘅工作都頗直接,剔個格同埋簽個名咁滯,都係一個算係比較直接嘅一個行政工 10 作,再(English Spoken)過埋嚟,我冇聽過呢個做法。 11 陳健波議員:哦,即係你話你冇聽過,但係有啲人就講,業界就話--好似話有啲比較大嘅公 12 司都有做緊呢啲嘢,即係總之你就覺得係冇嘅? 13 姜世明先生:我冇聽過呢樣嘢。 14 陳健波議員:冇聽過,okay。 15 陸啟康法官:孫律師。 16 孫靖乾資深大律師:唔該主席,姜Sir,只係有兩個問題,儘快同你跟進。 17 姜世明先生:好。 18 孫靖乾資深大律師:第一個就係,頭先杜大律師有問過你其中一個文件,喺B2 嘅1446 19 頁,咁佢呢度問你就係其中有一封咁樣嘅信,但係我想你睇番,如果你去到1447 20 頁,你會見到下面嗰個日期其實就係2022 年嚟嘅,即係唔係講緊我哋大維修期間 21 嗰個情況。 22 姜世明先生:係,係。 23 孫靖乾資深大律師:所以佢再畀你睇,就係話有一個附表喺1448 頁,係,有附件,所以頭 24 先呢個我哋睇到嗰個附件係唔係嗰個大維修,即係2024 年、2025 年,咁我哋其 25 實係有其他嘅文件,咁都有好多嘅唔同嘅座數都有。 26 姜世明先生:係。 27 孫靖乾資深大律師:但係我只係用一個嚟同你去做一個例子去睇一睇,去澄清番。 28 姜世明先生:好。 29 孫靖乾資深大律師:係。如果我想你睇一睇就係B2/1606,呢個都係杜大律師問過你,你見 30 第四段就講過,係針對呢一個宏福苑裏面呢個應該係有做過一個(English 31 Spoken),就喺呢個2025 年4 月8 號,咁我就想你跟住再睇一睇就係1608 32 頁。 33 姜世明先生:係。 34 孫靖乾資深大律師:咁1608 頁就係其實喺做呢個(English Spoken)嘅同一日,呢個 35 (English Spoken)係關於宏志閣嘅。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十天

93 本謄本由Epiq 編製 姜世明先生:係。 1 孫靖乾資深大律師:咁就我哋見到就有封咁樣嘅信,就係發出嘅,同一個時間,都係4 月8 2 號,咁呢度就首先就想你睇一睇個附件1610。 3 姜世明先生:係,係。 4 孫靖乾資深大律師:呢度1610 你就見到就--你頭先有講過話通常都會係有個附件,會有十 5 幾個唔同嘅建議。 6 姜世明先生:係。 7 孫靖乾資深大律師:我想問你睇一睇呢度,呢個係咪你所頭先講證供嘅時候所指嘅情況? 8 姜世明先生:正確。 9 孫靖乾資深大律師:係,咁我唔會逐個逐個睇,淨係想同你睇埋就係第13 段嗰度,第13 段 10 嗰度就有話,係需在下列地點張貼關閉消防裝置嘅告示,咁就有講話喺地下大堂, 11 係咪? 12 姜世明先生:係。 13 孫靖乾資深大律師:你記得杜大律師就問你,就話個同事喺4 月8 號,亦即係話出呢封信畀 14 嗰個業主或者管理處嘅同一日,佢就話「點解同事冇去睇下有冇張貼到嗰個通 15 告」。 16 姜世明先生:係。 17 孫靖乾資深大律師:如果你見到而家呢度嗰封信,係到第13 段有要求佢哋係要去張貼個告 18 示,你會唔會可以解釋到點解當時個同事係冇去睇有冇貼到通告,個原因係咩嘢? 19 姜世明先生:會唔會係佢未貼或者佢唔為意已經貼咗,呢個係一張(English Spoken) 20 嘅通告,... 21 孫靖乾資深大律師:或者姜Sir,我問你,實際上呢封信第13 段個目的係做咩嘢?係咪-- 22 係想做咩嘢?第13 段。 23 姜世明先生:係想要求大廈方面係張貼呢張通告。 24 孫靖乾資深大律師:張貼通告,好,唔該晒。跟住我就只係再問多你一個問題,咁就係我想- 25 -頭先就係應該林大律師就話喺你嘅第四份證人供詞,你先至係講到話呢個宏泰係應 26 該入嗰個SDN,但係我想你睇一睇就係你第一份證人供詞,就係呢個WS1/142 27 頁,第11.1 段嘅,咁呢度就你有講過就係話,如果一個註冊嘅承辦商係可以及時 28 係通知個消防處係有關嗰個警鐘嗰個關閉嘅話,咁呢個就係會有--起到某一個作 29 用。 30 姜世明先生:係。 31 孫靖乾資深大律師:呢度你講過話個註冊承辦商可以及時通知到呢個消防處,咁你呢度講緊 32 嘅,係講緊譬如如果喺宏福苑嚟講,係會包括係邊一個承辦商?站在你嘅角度嚟 33 睇,即係你覺得有邊個承辦商佢哋係--即係譬如如果--我或者咁講,首先,如果係 34 中華發展,如果佢係得悉嗰個消防警報系統係關閉咗嘅,你覺得佢需唔需要去通知 35 消防處? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十天

94 本謄本由Epiq 編製 姜世明先生:需要。 1 孫靖乾資深大律師:咁第二,就係關於宏泰,咁佢亦都係做有關嘅執修工程嘅時候,咁佢發 2 現呢個情況,佢又需唔需要通知消防處? 3 姜世明先生:需要。 4 孫靖乾資深大律師:係,好,咁就唔該晒你,姜Sir,我就冇其他問題。 5 陸啟康法官:仲有冇覆問? 6 杜淦堃資深大律師:主席,冇。 7 陸啟康法官:Okay,咁姜Sir,唔該晒你,你今日作供完畢㗎嘞,唔該晒你。咁如果係咁, 8 我哋跟住係下次就係星期一,係咪? 9 杜淦堃資深大律師:冇錯,下個禮拜應該係一、三、四、五。 10 陸啟康法官:Okay,星期一朝頭早10 點。 11

12 16 時46 分消防處助理處長(牌照及審批)證人姜世明先生作供完畢 13

14 16 時46 分聆訊押後 15 (聆訊將於2026 年4 月13 日10 時00 分繼續) 16

FD06250 | 2025_港澳台_香港宏福苑大火_Transcript-(Chinese)_20260413.pdf

分类:06_境外及港澳台调查报告 | 年份:2025 | 地域:香港 | 严重程度: | 场所: | 起火原因:燃气/爆炸 | 来源格式:pdf

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十一天

本謄本由Epiq 編製

就大埔宏福苑火災成立的獨立委員會

聽證會

高等法院原訟法庭陸啟康法官 陳健波議員 歐陽伯權博士

日期:

第十一天 2026 年4 月13 日

杜淦堃資深大律師, 俞匡庭大律師, 李澍桓大律師, 馮天榮大律師, 張天風大律師及李俊軒大律師代表獨立委員會

孫靖乾資深大律師, 陸栩然大律師, 卓元暢大律師及劉逸冲大律師代表政府

譚俊傑大律師代表宏福苑居民

何卓衡大律師及楊志聰大律師代表置邦興業有限公司

律政司代表

競爭事務委員會代表

合安管理有限公司代表

呂世杰資深大律師及阮文躍大律師代表市區重建局

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十一天

1 本謄本由Epiq 編製

以下內容乃聆訊數碼錄音謄本 1

2 10 時00 分聆訊恢復 3

4 陸啟康法官:係,李大律師。 5 李澍桓大律師:早晨,主席,今日會有四位證人佢哋都係嚟自消防處嘅。咁或者喺呢度未叫 6 證人之前呢,想好快做個介紹嘅呢四位元證人嗰個參與情況,第一位會係許健安先 7 生,佢係高級消防隊長。第二位係張樂恒,佢係助理消防區長,亦都係當時大埔消 8 防局嘅局長嚟嘅。第三位就會係林浩俊,係新界東嘅分區副指揮官。而最後一位就 9 係黃景文,副消防總長,咁雖然黃先生而家其實就係正在退休休假,但係佢都會嚟 10 作供。呢四位消防處嘅同事其實佢哋都係喺大火當日喺唔同時間做過現場嘅指揮 11 官,所以我哋希望透過呢四位消防嘅同事可以話到畀大家知,究竟當日喺災場佢哋 12 要應付嘅救災工作同埋可能會面對嘅究竟係一啲乜嘢嘅難題,咁希望可以透過佢哋 13 分別咁向委員會講解。喺問問題嘅過程入面,主席,我都好大機會會睇番一啲可能 14 當日火災嘅片段同埋可能災前或者災後嘅一啲現場嘅相片,所以可能對在場有睇緊 15 呢個聽證會人士可能唔多唔少都會有啲可能不安嘅情緒引致,我亦都希望可以提醒 16 番在場嘅人士,如果有需要,我哋喺有現場就算中央圖書館同埋呢度,都有一啲心 17 理輔導嘅支援。 18 陸啟康法官:唔該,李大律師。 19 李澍桓大律師:咁如果係咁嘅話,我哋而家叫許先生,許健安。係,許先生,麻煩你喺作供 20 之前,請你先企起身,喺你面前有個聲明詞嘅,請你先企起身讀出嗰個聲明。 21

22 10 時02 分消防處大埔消防局高級消防隊長證人許健安文先生開始作供 23

24 許健安先生:本人許健安聲明,本人所作的證供,盡本人所知、所悉及所信,均屬真實。 25 李澍桓大律師:係,請坐,許先生。許生,我哋知道你係2013 年加入消防處,係咪? 26 許健安先生:係,正確。 27 李澍桓大律師:然之後喺2018 年左右你就晉升到去高級消防隊長嘅呢一個職位? 28 許健安先生:正確。 29 李澍桓大律師:喺火災,即係2025 年11 月26 號當日呢,你其實係駐守緊大埔消防局, 30 個職位就係B 隊嘅分隊主管,係咪? 31 許健安先生:正確。 32 李澍桓大律師:就喺當日,我哋知道你係--都算係第一批到現場嘅消防員,係咪? 33 許健安先生:係,正確。 34

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十一天

2 本謄本由Epiq 編製 李澍桓大律師:我亦都知道你就住今次呢一個調查分別向警方提供咗一份證人口供,亦都之 1 後向委員會提供咗一份證人口供嘅,係咪? 2 許健安先生:係。 3 李澍桓大律師:我相信你兩份口供入面所講嘅都係據你所知、所信,真實嘅嘢講出嚟,係 4 咪? 5 許健安先生:係。 6 李澍桓大律師:好勒,我嚟緊嘅呢啲時間,我會同你探討一下當日你當值,尤其是到場之後 7 面對嘅情況,其中一個主要我哋想探討嘅話題當然就係我哋知道當日喺救火救人嘅 8 時候其實係面對好多困難嘅。可能有啲問題嚟緊我會問到係可能令你覺得好似有點 9 尖銳或者聽落去似一啲批評,但係其實我絕對冇呢個意思,相反我哋係希望探討成 10 個制度上面,尤其是你哋前線嘅消防員究竟喺救災嘅時候一要面對嘅一啲困難,從 11 而等委員可以去了解係咪有啲地方整體上,無論係一啲指引或者救災嘅一啲儀器、 12 工具係咪可以做一啲提升、改善,希望你明白我嗰個目的同埋個來意,好唔好呀? 13 許健安先生:明白。 14 李澍桓大律師:我哋先睇番有一份分文,我都會比較依靠得多就係喺B10 入面5087 頁有一 15 個叫做(English Spoken)嘅一個記錄,因為呢個都比較容易我哋去跟番嗰個 16 事件嘅發展嘅。呢一份文件我知道就係消防處事後製備,如果我哋睇得到呢,喺嗰 17 個頁碼下面,右手邊我哋見到個日子就係11 月26 號,即係火災當日喇,跟住我哋 18 見到第一個,有個(English Spoken)其實就係應該係報畀消防處求助嘅第一 19 個嘅時間嚟嘅,咁我哋見到就係14:51,即係2 點51 分。 20 許健安先生:係。 21 李澍桓大律師:如果我哋睇入去嗰個列表嗰個內容,你見到就係似乎出現咗有一個信息,咁 22 就係話宏昌閣宏福苑,咁就係打電話嗰個人士畀嘅資料就係話有一個火災,就牽涉 23 到有一個外牆嘅棚架,並且似乎有一個爆炸發生嘅,有呢啲咁嘅情況,你睇到呢一 24 個信息喇,係咪?而家。 25 許健安先生:睇到。 26 李澍桓大律師:我哋亦都知道你隨後係喺14:52,如果我哋睇落去下面少少呢,14:52: 27 42 秒嘅嗰個信息,就應該就係你(English Spoken),即係接報咗呢一個咁樣 28 嘅求助嘅要求,我哋見到2336(6)應該係你嘅消防員編號,係咪呀? 29 許健安先生:呢個係消防車嘅車牌。 30 李澍桓大律師:消防車嘅車牌,跟住我哋見到就係應該係(English Spoken)就係許先 31 生你,係咪? 32 許健安先生:正確。 33 李澍桓大律師:我哋見到你接報,即係應機喇,就係其實喺第一個call 1 分25 秒嘅時 34 候,你就已經接報咗呢一個咁樣嘅求助嘅要求,係咪? 35 許健安先生:正確。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十一天

3 本謄本由Epiq 編製 李澍桓大律師:咁我相信就係隨後就係應該係你同你嘅隊員就係去出車,去火災嘅現場宏福 1 苑,係咪? 2 許健安先生:係。 3 李澍桓大律師:我哋知道你當時負責嘅就係一架叫做油--係咪一個叫做「油壓升降台」嘅車 4 輛? 5 許健安先生:正確。 6 李澍桓大律師:喺嗰個車上面就應該係你同另外有五位同事就出車嘅? 7 許健安先生:正確。 8 李澍桓大律師:我想你留意番喺14:51,即係你接報對上嗰個call,呢個就係由馬鞍山消 9 防局接嘅一個回應嚟嘅,我想你留意就係,喺括弧嗰度佢有一句,就話 10 “(English Spoken)”,跟住就有一個消防車嘅編號,我相信,係咪?。 11 許健安先生:係。 12 李澍桓大律師:我想問喺你當初接報,即係由控制中心發出要求去宏福苑做支援,做救火嘅 13 時候,其實你哋係會有啲乜嘢資料,即係除咗我哋一早睇到嘅嗰句話有棚架火燭之 14 外,其實仲有啲乜嘢資料係畀過你哋㗎? 15 許健安先生:其實車上面,喺嗰個車輛主管個位置度,我哋都有一個流動終端機嘅。 16 李澍桓大律師:係。 17 許健安先生:咁嗰個流動終端機其實上面都有一啲資訊,譬如關於大廈嗰個樓高,同埋佢嗰 18 個大約個大細,我哋可以知道嘅。咁另外呢,佢嗰個現場如果係有一啲嘅消防裝置 19 本身係失效嘅,咁我哋嘅消防通訊中心亦都會喺事前亦都記錄咗,亦都會喺嗰個流 20 動終端機上面我哋可以睇到知道,哦,原來呢個,我哋去緊嘅呢個事故現場係有一 21 啲嘅消防裝置係失效嘅咁樣樣。咁另外,我哋都有一個大約現場嗰個地圖,我哋可 22 以知道嗰個大約屋苑,即係事故現場嗰個位置咁樣樣,等等呢啲資訊我哋都可以透 23 過個終端機見到。 24 李澍桓大律師:針對番消防裝置,尤其是佢有個信息,即係話你會知道有消防裝置係失效 25 嘅? 26 許健安先生:係。 27 李澍桓大律師:但係呢個信息會唔會話畀你知係乜嘢嘅消防裝置,因為我哋知道照明系統係 28 一個消防裝置,滅火筒係一個消防裝置,咁呢度有冇--即係喺你個終端機上面,你 29 出車嘅時候會唔會話到畀你知邊係一類型嘅消防裝置失效? 30 許健安先生:我當時記得係我知道就係現場有消防裝置失效,但係具體邊一個消防裝置,我 31 而家唔記得,有冇呢個信息,係。 32 李澍桓大律師:Okay,假設如果當時係有話埋畀你知,譬如究竟係加壓泵壞咗,定係可能係 33 天面嘅水缸冇水,如果呢啲信息可以預早話畀你知,假設有話畀你知,雖然話短短 34 可能幾分鐘,因為我哋知道你大概五分鐘喥就已經去到現場,喺呢幾分鐘入面會唔 35 會幫助到你可能喺車上面已經可能要制訂一定到場嘅一啲措施點樣去救火? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十一天

4 本謄本由Epiq 編製 許健安先生:可以。 1 李澍桓大律師:即係你覺得係直情話畀你知邊樣裝置係會幫到,定還是其實無所謂嘅,我知 2 道有問題,你唔話畀我知邊樣嘢,我都係嗰套應對方案,會唔會有分別? 3 許健安先生:如果我預先知道係邊一類消防裝置係失效嘅,咁亦都可以幫助到我喺車上面去 4 制訂嗰個現場部署。 5 陸啟康法官:我想問下許生,即係其實佢有冇話到畀你聽?係有話畀你聽,你唔記得咗係乜 6 嘢,抑或其實個終端機係冇呢一個嘅信息顯示㗎? 7 許健安先生:我而家唔記得當時個終端機上面有冇呢個信息喺度,但係佢一定係有話到畀我 8 知現場有消防裝置係失效。 9 陸啟康法官:明白。 10 李澍桓大律師:我相信你因為你都唔係年資淺嘅消防,你之前都應該有即係出過第二啲嘅任 11 務,係咪? 12 許健安先生:係。 13 李澍桓大律師:喺你之前嘅任務有冇經驗,譬如都係有呢一啲咁樣嘅信息出嚟,然之後以你 14 所記得嗰啲信息係咪會講埋邊啲消防裝置失效? 15 許健安先生:有,我記得有。 16 李澍桓大律師:即係會有講埋邊一樣嘢失效嘅? 17 許健安先生:係。 18 李澍桓大律師:但係今次宏福苑嗰個情況你唔記得究竟有定冇? 19 許健安先生:係,係。 20 李澍桓大律師:唔。另外,我哋亦都知道因應住宏福苑嗰個維修嘅情況,因為你屬於都係大 21 埔分局喇。 22 許健安先生:係。 23 李澍桓大律師:所以其實你應該知道就其實係有一個所謂叫做應變方案係因應住佢哋有維修 24 工程進行而消防局制訂咗,係咪? 25 許健安先生:知道。 26 李澍桓大律師:喺車上係咪都有一個咁樣嘅--即係成個方案畀到你哋,喺個終端機度,定還 27 是有個副本,你講唔講得到? 28 許健安先生:車上並冇呢個行動預案嘅副本喺度。 29 李澍桓大律師:係。 30 許健安先生:係。 31 李澍桓大律師:但係你去今次出勤呢個任務之前,有冇機會或者你知唔知入面呢個應變方案 32 嘅嗰個內容? 33 許健安先生:我本身知道。 34 李澍桓大律師:你有冇份制訂呢一個方案㗎? 35 許健安先生:我當初係--我有參與嘅,有參與,係。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十一天

5 本謄本由Epiq 編製 李澍桓大律師:係,okay。或者我哋喺呢度睇一睇嗰個應變方案,然之後你可以再進一步話 1 畀我哋知你嗰個參與嘅情況,同埋一啲政策點樣制訂。 2 許健安先生:好。 3 李澍桓大律師:嗰個有關嘅文件係B2,2642 嗰個文件冊度嘅。我哋見到呢個就係因應有重 4 大維修宏福苑制訂嘅一個應對方案。咁我睇到呢,喺2644 頁,即係簡介嗰度,其 5 實1.2 段,嗰度已經有畀到一個資料你,就係其實每一座有幾多層,大概有幾多 6 戶,你係當時已經係知道有呢一個信息嘅,係咪? 7 許健安先生:知道。 8 李澍桓大律師:我相信你制訂個方案之前,其實應該你同你嘅同事都有到過現場去視察過, 9 係咪? 10 許健安先生:我哋喺製作呢個行動預案嘅時候,我哋並冇就住呢個預案去現場視察。但係因 11 為本身其實呢個屋苑即係對於我哋嚟講係一個老牌屋苑嚟。 12 李澍桓大律師:係。 13 許健安先生:而我哋即係大埔消防局嘅人員對於呢個屋苑本身都有充分嘅認知。 14 李澍桓大律師:係。 15 許健安先生:包括透過我哋日常有機會去現場做另外一啲嘅個案嘅時候,又或者我哋另一啲 16 嘅巡--信息巡視嘅時候,我哋都機會去過現場,所以我哋都了解個屋苑,所以我哋 17 喺製作呢個行動預案嘅時候,我哋係將一啲基本嘅資料放咗落去,另外,亦都就住 18 呢個屋苑進行大維修,我哋都增加咗一啲人手去... 19 李澍桓大律師:係。 20 許健安先生:呢個係一個預案嘅目的,係。 21 李澍桓大律師:我諗就係因應住嗰個有維修嘅情況,我哋喺第五段,2645 頁我哋就見到有 22 一個叫做“(English Spoken)”,就話即係當接到如果有求助,火警嘅求助 23 嘅時候就一啲需要採取嘅一啲情況,係咪? 24 許健安先生:係。 25 李澍桓大律師:我哋見到譬如舉個例,就一個升降台,作為現場主管就要去--5.1 段嗰度就 26 講就係負責去評定當時嗰個情況,同埋去畀意見就係決定究竟需要嘅一啲滅火嘅一 27 啲程序或者方法,係咪? 28 許健安先生:係。 29 李澍桓大律師:咁5.4、5.5、5.6 我哋都見到係有一啲相應嘅一啲措施,就派唔同嘅所謂 30 我哋譬如見到LRU,就係輕型嘅救援車,係咪呀? 31 許健安先生:係。 32 李澍桓大律師:我想問,呢一個制訂方案就係一接到話有火災求助,咁就會用第5 段入面所 33 講嘅呢啲方案去應對,係咪? 34 許健安先生:係。 35 李澍桓大律師:當然去到現場就要因應個情況,我哋知道譬如好以宏福苑咁,最褸屘我哋係 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十一天

6 本謄本由Epiq 編製 牽涉咗好多車輛、好多救援人員,去到五級火,係咪? 1 許健安先生:係。 2 李澍桓大律師:旦係我想問嘅,喺制訂呢個方案嘅時候,有冇考慮個時間,即係火警發生嗰 3 個時間嘅因素?我再講得詳細少少,我哋知道可能好彩嘅呢,就係因為今次宏福苑 4 大火喺平日兩點零發生,所以相對地可能有好多人都已經外出咗就返工、返學。但 5 係如果譬如你話喺夜晚發生呢個火警嘅,可能返到去嘅居民就會比較多嘞,其實制 6 訂呢個方案嘅時候,有冇諗過話其實可能就住個時間性或者佢係咪假期,可能都應 7 該會有相應一啲改變而唔係話即係日頭又係咁多車、夜晚又咁多車? 8 許健安先生:製作呢個行動預案嘅時候,其實佢係提供咗即係一般我哋去處理火警,喺呢個 9 屋苑處理火警時候一個預案嚟嘅,其實喺呢個預案裏面亦都提供咗一啲額外嘅人手 10 資源去應對。畀現場--初期行動指揮喺現場嘅時候能夠有大啲嘅彈性去作部署。當 11 現場有需要去作何嘅增援或者任需要任何嘅支援嘅時候,現場嘅總指揮亦都係可以 12 隨時向我哋消防通訊中心去要求增援,所以呢個行動預案係提供咗一個一般性畀我 13 哋嘅行動指揮,同埋我哋嘅消防人員去了解呢個屋苑同埋熟悉呢個屋苑咁樣樣。 14 李澍桓大律師:係,即係話呢個就--如果根據你所講,呢個就係最低嘅要求,咁但係如果因 15 應到時你知道嘅情況係有所變化,現場指揮就可以要求更多人手或者車輛去增換, 16 你係咪咁嘅意思? 17 許健安先生:係,正確。 18 李澍桓大律師:我哋知道你跟住呢就係--如果我哋睇番B10 嗰個文件,我哋知道你就應該係 19 喺14:56 嘅時間就到達現場嘅,咁如果我哋睇14:56:222 嗰個欄目,我哋會見 20 到 ARR ,就應該係你到達並且(English Spoken )咗嗰個(English 21 Spoken)嘅職位,係咪? 22 許健安先生:正確。 23 李澍桓大律師:我哋見後面5 分5 秒,呢個就係話由第一個call,即係14:51 嗰個 24 call,你喺5 分5 秒之後就已經到達咗現場,係咪? 25 許健安先生:正確。 26 李澍桓大律師:下一個就14:57 嗰個欄目,就應該係你做嘅第一個匯報嚟嘅,係咪? 27 許健安先生:係。 28 李澍桓大律師:因為呢個既然係你做嘅匯報,似乎你就喺到達咗現場大概三十秒喥,咁你就 29 已經做一個匯報,不如你講一講畀我哋知,你呢個信息嘅內容係想匯報啲乜? 30 許健安先生:好。我當時大約14:56:22 喇,咁我係去到現場喇,咁我口供裏面都有提到, 31 就係我架車輛泊咗喺個迴旋處嗰個位置,當我落車嘅時候呢,咁我就即係有個途人 32 帶到我去後即面,即係宏昌閣背面,即係對住元洲仔里嗰個方向喇。 33 李澍桓大律師:或者你既然講到你泊咗喺迴旋處,或者我畀一條片段你睇番,睇下你可唔可 34 以幫到我哋,認唔認到現場嗰架係咪你到場嗰架車,呢個就係你講元洲仔個迴旋 35 處,係咪呀? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十一天

7 本謄本由Epiq 編製 許健安先生:係,冇錯。 1 李澍桓大律師:咁我哋其實喺遠處,應該就見到即係近左手邊嗰度,上面呢,就應該見到有 2 一架就係你嘅升降台到咗,係咪? 3 許健安先生:係,冇錯。 4 李澍桓大律師:或者睇一睇嗰條片。 5 (播放短片) 6 [(消防車警號聲) 7 男聲:阿Sir,宏昌--阿Sir,宏昌閣火燭呀,宏昌閣火燭,好大鑊呀,我都--我都--我 8 屋企成...(聽不清)煙呀,全部係煙,我屋企全部都係煙呀,屋企火燭呀。] 9 李澍桓大律師:跟住我哋就見到應該你嘅同事都到咗。 10 許健安先生:係,正確。 11 [女聲:阿李太,你睇下。 12 男聲:全部都係煙呀,10 樓燒著咗呀,我返工呀。(消防車警號聲)] 13 (短片播放完畢) 14 李澍桓大律師:頭先我哋喺片段入面見到有座大廈上面冒緊煙嘅,嗰個就應該就係宏昌閣 15 嘅,係咪? 16 許健安先生:係,正確。 17 李澍桓大律師:你就話去到,你剛才講到--我截停咗你嘅,你就話去到嘅時候呢,你就有居 18 民話畀你知,帶你去睇究竟邊度著火,係咪? 19 許健安先生:係。 20 李澍桓大律師:我想問其實喺你收到信息,其實或者之後呢,控制中心同你仲有冇聯絡譬如 21 話畀你知其實實際上係咩嘢位置或者幾多樓著火,有冇呢啲資訊畀你? 22 許健安先生:冇,我收到嘅信息係外牆囉,宏昌閣外牆棚架有火。 23 李澍桓大律師:唔。喺片段入面,我哋亦都知道你--有消防車到嘅時候當然就你同你同事嗰 24 個車輛嗰個警號都係響住嘅,係咪去到某一段時間其實你架車嗰個即係警號就已經 25 係閂咗--熄咗? 26 許健安先生:係。 27 李澍桓大律師:我哋亦都有見過消防處提供嘅一啲文件,其實佢係有講就話除非係必要,如 28 果唔係嘅話就應該只係著燈就唔好響號嘅,你可唔可以解釋畀我哋知以你嘅認知, 29 點解會有一個咁樣嘅要求? 30 許健安先生:我相信,因為我哋消防車去進入宏福苑嘅時候呢,我哋都係有即係響住嗰個警 31 號,... 32 李澍桓大律師:係。 33 許健安先生:...同埋嗰個燈號去進入宏福苑嘅,直至我哋車輛停定之後,我哋都會閂咗個 34 警號去嘅咁樣,以我理解,一方面就係其實嗰個警號嗰個分貝,即係如果譬如有幾 35 架消防車響住,其實都可能會即係--有機會即係影響現場我哋嗰個嘅無線--即係我 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十一天

8 本謄本由Epiq 編製 哋通訊,因為可能會佢掩蓋咗我哋現場嗰個--我哋現場人員之間嘅溝通、通訊咁 1 樣。同埋有時喺事故裏面,我哋都會避免喺一啲唔受影響局嘅居民度,避免引起佢 2 哋即係可能有更加多嘅恐慌咁樣樣。所以其實我哋有時一般我哋去到現場,我哋停 3 定咗架車,當我哋落車去工作或者去部署嘅時候,我哋都--一般我哋都可能熄咗個 4 警號呀咁樣樣。 5 李澍桓大律師:唔。講番你頭先話因為驚干擾到嗰個通訊嘅系統,我想問你同你嘅隊員喺出 6 勤嘅時候,其實你哋主要--即係除咗近距離面對面當然會直接溝通,如果當大家喺 7 唔嘅同位置需要聯絡嘅時候,你哋用嘅嗰套通訊系統,你可唔可以好約略講畀我哋 8 知,其實係一個乜嘢嘅通訊系統嚟? 9 許健安先生:我哋每人都有一部無線電喺身度,我哋都會用無線電去通訊? 10 李澍桓大律師:係。我相信應該都係一個數碼化嘅,係咪呀? 11 許健安先生:係,冇錯。 12 李澍桓大律師:有冇試過喺呢啲無線電嘅通訊系統入面,尤其是去到火場一啲好惡劣嘅環境 13 嘅時候,你有冇經驗話呢啲通訊系統可能係用唔到、接收唔到、收得唔清楚,有冇 14 呢啲情況? 15 許健安先生:我好少--或者我冇遇過呢啲問題,一般都係冇問題,正常操作。 16 李澍桓大律師:我哋知道你到咗現場,咁我想你睇一睇另外一個片段,就係一個途人應該係 17 拍到宏昌閣外面單車徑嘅嗰個情況嘅,我相信第一就應該係有途人帶咗你嚟後面嘅 18 呢個位置,係咪? 19 許健安先生:係,冇錯。 20 李澍桓大律師:咁我哋或者好快睇一睇呢個片段。 21 (播放短片) 22 〔男聲一:喂,...(聽不清)返上去4 樓呀。 23 男聲二:...(聽不清) 24 男聲一:我都冇...(聽不清)呢樣嘢,唔好玩喇,點識啫? 25 男聲二:快啲走呀,火燭呀喂。 26 男聲一:喂,走嘞,喂,嚟呀,嚟呀,嚟呀,消防到嘞,消防到嘞,見到嘞,見到嘞,見到 27 嘞,有消防,有消防。〕 28 (短片播放完畢) 29 李澍桓大律師:我哋停一停,呢度應該其中一個就係你同埋你帶你嘅隊員,係咪? 30 許健安先生:係,正確。 31 李澍桓大律師:我哋繼續睇埋個片段,我先再問你其他問題。 32 (播放短片) 33 〔男聲一:喂,燒到8 樓嘞。 34 男聲二:...(聽不清)好高呀。喂,大鑊,喂,我哋都走嘞,喂。我哋都要走嘞,喂。褪 35 後啲,褪後啲,我哋都搞唔掂嘞,要走嘞,褪後啲呀。嘩,大鑊。喂,大檸樂。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十一天

9 本謄本由Epiq 編製 喂,喂,大家小心呀,嘩,大家褪後啲呀。喂,仆街呀,中間著到咁樣。嘩,喂, 1 快啲走呀,快啲走呀,走嘞,走嘞,喂,走嘞阿叔,冧緊嘞。) 2 李澍桓大律師:我相信我哋頭先先前睇你14:57 向控制中心匯報嘅嗰個信息,應該就係睇 3 完呢一個環境之後做嘅一個報告嚟,係咪? 4 許健安先生:係,冇錯。 5 李澍桓大律師:咁我相信好似片段咁講,其實大家都睇到當時個情況似乎都已經幾惡劣,因 6 為有幾多雜物、竹枝其實已經開始跌落嚟,係咪? 7 許健安先生:係。 8 李澍桓大律師:我想問問一問你,因為呢度我哋知道就係宏昌閣後,即係唔係主要入口,係 9 另一邊後門嗰度,後樓梯嗰度,當其時你有冇留意到嗰個出入口嗰個情況? 10 許健安先生:當時我大約落車一分鐘,我大約去到呢個位置,咁我見到咁樣嘅情況,咁我知 11 道嗰度都係一個--其實係佢呢個起火點個位,即係呢個火柱呢個位置其實下面就係 12 一個後門嚟,咁我見到就係當時已經係好大火,同埋不斷有啲嘢跌落嚟,其實嗰個 13 後門已經係好難去進出。 14 李澍桓大律師:一陣間較後時間我會同你睇番一啲之前同之後嘅相片,不過我而家想儘量集 15 中喺你講過畀我哋知嘅信息。我知道因為你係到場嘅最高職級嘅一個前線嘅消防 16 員,所以就當時你就自然成為咗現場嘅指揮官,係咪? 17 許健安先生:正確。 18 李澍桓大律師:咁你見到呢個咁嘅情況嘅時候,我想了解下,即係由你講畀我哋知,你對你 19 嘅隊員見到咁嘅情況之後,你作出咗一啲乜嘢嘅指示去做一個救援嘅工作? 20 許健安先生:當時喺面對住呢個情況,其實好快我都叫咗隊員儘快開一條嘅即係我哋叫做掩 21 護喉,咁個掩護喉咁就過嚟希望可以控制個火勢--壓制個火勢,咁另外我亦都叫 22 我... 23 李澍桓大律師:呢度停一停,呢個掩護喉係壓制個火勢係喺邊度射水去邊度? 24 許健安先生:希望儘快開一條喉,可以由宏昌閣嗰個嘅--即係呢個背面,其實開過嚟就係由 25 我大埔升降台嗰邊開過嚟,希望可以儘快可以去射水去控制呢個火勢咁樣樣。 26 李澍桓大律師:係,即係嗰條喉要由你迴旋處嗰度就拉一條喉,去後面呢度? 27 許健安先生:係,冇錯,係,大錯。 28 李澍桓大律師:就希望可以控制個火勢? 29 許健安先生:係,冇錯。 30 李澍桓大律師:咁當其時其實你喺嗰一刻你畀呢啲指示嘅時候,以你所知,你係有幾多個同 31 事到達咗現場,同埋幾多架車輛,你有冇呢啲信息? 32 許健安先生:我知道當時我一級火警個出動規模,就知道--同埋再加上我知道有搜救隊嘅嚟 33 緊嘅當中。 34 李澍桓大律師:係。 35 許健安先生:同埋再加上有一啲嘅--因應個消防裝置有問題,所以另外有一啲額外嘅車輛, 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十一天

10 本謄本由Epiq 編製 大約個車輛當時我係知道--我事後就知道大約有十二架嘅消防車輛。 1 李澍桓大律師:十二架消防車輛,你所知大概去到邊一個時間?係14--你就14:56 到達, 2 14:57 就做咗個匯報,咁當你嗰一刻做完個匯報嘅時候,你就住嗰一刻,我相信就 3 要立即要向隊員作出一啲指示,去做救援嘅工作。 4 許健安先生:係。 5 李澍桓大律師:我想知道嘅就係,首先第一,你有冇一個好清晰嘅信息話到畀你知,其實而 6 家已經在地面嘅、即係在場嘅有幾多同事,有啲乜嘢嘅工具車嚟到可以幫到你?有 7 冇呢啲資訊不斷咁樣畀你,其實? 8 許健安先生:有嘅,即係譬如有啲車輛嚟到現場嘅時候,佢哋嘅車輛主管都會同我匯報話佢 9 哋到場嘅。 10 李澍桓大律師:係。 11 許健安先生:咁當然,我14:56 我到現場嘅時候,係我第一架到,咁我稍候我去番宏昌閣 12 嘅前面正門去部署指揮,我就陸續見到其他消防車到場,咁同埋啲消防車輛嘅主管 13 都會向我匯報話佢到場咁樣樣,同埋會進行啲乜嘢工作,包括我會話畀佢知我有啲 14 咩嘢指令,話畀佢哋知咁樣樣。 15 李澍桓大律師:係。當然,我哋知道消防員到呢個火災嘅現場,唔多唔少應該都會有一個即 16 係所謂先後嘅次序嘅一啲目標嘅,我嘅理解應該當其時消防員永遠第一個目標希望 17 可以做到嘅就係去救人,可唔可以咁講? 18 許健安先生:我哋希望係滅火同埋救援。 19 李澍桓大律師:但係即係如果喺撲熄個火同喺救援,即係救人嘅工作上面,我相信個先後次 20 序一定係擺喺救人嗰個層次上面,係咪? 21 許健安先生:同意。 22 李澍桓大律師:呢度我想你睇一睇嗰個-- 有一個你哋叫做(English Spoken ),喺 23 B2/2186 頁嘅,呢個我相信你都有機會睇過嘅一個文件嚟嘅,係咪?你熟唔熟悉 24 呢個文件? 25 許健安先生:正確,我睇過。 26 李澍桓大律師:呢個應該可能係叫一啲常務指示咁樣嘅文件。我想首先第一樣嘢睇嘅就係喺 27 3.1.2,咁呢度簡單啲嚟講,呢一個段落嘅意思就係話「如果當發現一個需要救援 28 嘅地方,其實如果係佢嗰個消防設備裝置係有一個用嘅字眼叫做(English 29 Spoken)嘅時候,咁我哋如果睇埋下面尤其是(a)細段嗰度,就其實似乎就第 30 一,喺嗰個控制中心嗰個系統上面,就要有一個所謂叫做(English 31 Spoken),係要喺你哋嗰個--應該就係你講嗰個流動嘅通訊系統嗰度要睇到嘅, 32 係咪? 33 許健安先生:係。 34 李澍桓大律師:所以點解我哋喺頭先之前睇嘅嗰個文件上面,我哋其實見到有個信息,就話 35 有一個(English Spoken)。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十一天

11 本謄本由Epiq 編製 許健安先生:係。 1 李澍桓大律師:但係呢個(English Spoken)似乎仲有一個都幾緊要嘅意思,因為如果 2 一界定咗嗰樣嘢係一個(English Spoken)嘅話,其實相應就要出多一架升降 3 台嘅車輛去現場嘅,係咪? 4 許健安先生:會多一輛泵水嘅車輛。 5 李澍桓大律師:泵-- 即係(English Spoken )係主要泵車,係咪?(English 6 Spoken),係咪? 7 許健安先生:我哋--泵車,我哋叫。 8 李澍桓大律師:嗄,泵車,係。即係其實係--所以如果當你知道,或者如果控制中心有知道 9 有一個(English Spoken)主要損毀喺呢一個消防裝置系統度,就自自然然佢 10 要安排多一架泵車到現場嘅? 11 許健安先生:正確。 12 李澍桓大律師:但係呢個就唔係由你作為現場指揮官去決定嘅,因為應有控制中心係要知 13 道,同埋喺好似我哋見到佢要唔同嘅分局去做出勤,去車嘅時候,就應該佢要安排 14 埋呢個額外嘅泵車嘅,係咪? 15 許健安先生:正確。 16 李澍桓大律師:好,頭先又係打斷咗你嘅,咁你有同事到咗,你亦都觀察咗個情況,咁我想 17 問除咗去做一個儘量控制個火勢唔好畀佢蔓延或者加劇之外,對於你其他嘅隊員, 18 你仲畀咗啲乜嘢指示佢哋? 19 許健安先生:當時我喺元洲仔里嗰度見到咁嘅情況,跟住我就即刻叫我升降台嘅同事咁就即 20 刻開喉,咁我最屘係叫咗佢開兩條喉嘅,即係希望喺元洲仔里嗰度可以壓制個火 21 勢。跟住我自己就親身返番去宏昌閣嘅前面正門個位置,當我抬頭向上望嘅時候, 22 我發現啲--有好多濃煙,同埋已經去到喺個宏昌閣嘅頂部嗰度冒出嚟。咁而喺好短 23 嘅時間之內,我都開始見到有煙,同埋有火開始沿住宏昌閣嘅背面亦都係蔓延到去 24 宏昌閣嘅前面位置,咁亦都喺嗰一--都有好多燃燒緊嘅一啲雜物、竹枝、棚架,喺 25 上面度四處飄散咁樣落嚟,咁有啲墮落嘅速度亦都好快,咁而喺突然之間,佢嗰個 26 宏昌閣嘅正門嗰個位置都突然之間係好大火。 27 李澍桓大律師:喺呢度我想你停一停,你到咗現場,有居民帶咗你去後面,搵到似乎我哋而 28 家都相信係火頭嘅一個地方,喺嗰一刻其實--當然你亦都講,其實去到現場嘅時 29 候,你哋啲消防車都係著住警號,可能之後先至閂咗。你哋到場嘅時候有冇物管嘅 30 公司嘅職員出嚟同你哋即係接洽,或者去將現場嘅情況講解畀你哋知,有冇發生 31 到? 32 許健安先生:當刻我冇接觸到有物管嘅人員。 33 李澍桓大律師:即係冇物管嘅人員主動出嚟搵你哋「阿Sir,我哋係邊座大廈,或者我哋係 34 管理公司嘅人」,就冇呢樣嘢發生過? 35 許健安先生:冇。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十一天

12 本謄本由Epiq 編製 李澍桓大律師:咁我哋有客觀嘅證據亦都似乎知道,其實當其時個消防裝置,其中一個被閂 1 咗嘅,即係熄咗嘅,就係個火警警報系統,即係個警鐘。咁我想同你確認,當你到 2 咗現場嘅時候,即使喺宏昌閣嗰度,你有冇聽到警鐘聲? 3 許健安先生:冇。 4 李澍桓大律師:至少站住宏昌閣嗰個情況,你當時有冇即刻譬如同時間去嘗試叫你嘅隊員做 5 一啲疏散,或者去了解究竟嗰個大廈入面嘅情況? 6 許健安先生:當我落到去,即係落咗車之後,見到咁嘅情況,其實我都係部署完後面嗰個兩 7 條滅火喉射水。咁之後其實我係由我落車嗰刻,我聽唔到火警鐘,咁我亦都曾經嘗 8 試想話派人入去宏昌閣,睇下會唔會係未啟動到火警鐘定係--因為好多時有時都係 9 我哋去--因為--我哋去啟動佢個火警鐘,而當刻突--即係嗰個宏昌閣嘅後門位 10 置,我哋好--一去到已經係根本入唔到去,咁而我返番去前面正門嘅位置都開始有 11 好多嘅一啲燃燒緊嘅雜物跌咗落嚟,咁而嗰個情況亦都好快變得好惡劣,我哋亦都 12 唔能夠正門入去。所以我哋係冇辦法入去宏昌閣,嘗試去啟動呢個火警鐘。 13 李澍桓大律師:唔。你講啟動,係咪即係就係你哋都係嘗試去打爛嗰個所謂叫(English 14 Spoken)嗰塊玻璃,然之後啟動嗰個系統? 15 許健安先生:係,冇錯。 16 李澍桓大律師:就住你都認為--即係你都知道,應該話冇辦法去啟動呢一個火警警報系統嘅 17 時候,你當時有冇--以你所知,即係譬如喺救火嘅一啲即係常規政策,或者一啲策 18 略上面,有冇一啲指示畀你哋,如果喺咁嘅情況之下應該要點做? 19 許健安先生:當刻我哋同--其實去到現場,我哋同警察都有個默契,就係大家--佢會協助我 20 哋去做疏散嘅,協助我哋做疏散,咁其實我哋當刻,我亦都有啲現場有啲警察嘅同 21 事幫我哋喺即係地面度疏散一啲由四方八面逃出嚟嘅一啲嘅市民,去帶到去安全地 22 方,其實呢個動作我哋消防員都有做,我哋都有協助喺四方八面走出嚟嘅一啲居民 23 去疏散,喺地面疏散到一啲安全地方咁樣樣。 24 李澍桓大律師:你講四方八面都有居民走出嚟,個意思係即係除咗宏昌閣之外,當時喺其他 25 嘅座數都已經有居民? 26 許健安先生:係,當時我企喺嗰個位置,我見到。 27 李澍桓大律師:係。唔好介意,我始終--因為我哋知道喺今次呢個事件上面,似乎火警警報 28 系統係都有一個幾重要嘅角色喺度,因為佢一失效,似乎的而且確令好多居民係唔 29 知道,或者冇一個逃生嘅意識嘅,所以我純粹都仍然係想了解一下,就係喺消防處 30 製備嘅一啲救火嘅一啲應對嘅方案或者策略上面,就住可能--因為我相信都會有啲 31 時間係你去到一個現場,但係其實個火警鐘嗰個系統可能係失效,冇辦法啟動嘅, 32 係咪? 33 許健安先生:係。 34 李澍桓大律師:喺呢啲咁嘅情況,其實純粹講一般嘅情況,你所知即係一啲指引要你哋去處 35 理,通知一啲居民去逃生嘅時候,有冇一啲既定嘅方案係教你哋應該要點做? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十一天

13 本謄本由Epiq 編製 許健安先生:冇好明確特別去寫出嚟。 1 李澍桓大律師:唔。即係其實都係好靠你哋現場嘅指揮官或者同事去諗,睇下有乜嘢方法可 2 以做到,可唔可以咁講? 3 許健安先生:我哋都--根據我哋現場嗰個嘅即係具體嘅實際現場環境,我哋去做部署或者去 4 做一啲嘅行動咁樣樣。 5 李澍桓大律師:唔。當然,睇下你可唔可以同意,即係我相信如果喺嗰個策略或者政策上面 6 能夠再畀多啲指引你哋,我相信對於你哋做前線嘅工作嘅同事應該會多好多幫助, 7 係咪? 8 許健安先生:同意。 9 李澍桓大律師:我哋知道每一個消防車上面亦都應該有一個即係所謂大聲公嗰啲廣播系統 10 嘅。當其時,當然呢個正如我剛才所講,呢個唔係一個批評,但我哋希望可以了解 11 下係咪一個可行嘅方法,有冇可能係當時用你哋車輛上面嘅所謂大聲公去做一啲廣 12 播,叫啲居民疏散? 13 許健安先生:呢個當日我哋正如你咁講,即係都係一個工具,咁但係當刻嗰個--當日嗰個實 14 際現場環境,當見到嗰個火勢係咁大嘅時候,其實我已經立即部署消防喉。 15 李澍桓大律師:係。 16 許健安先生:同埋當時我現場到咗場嘅車輛同埋人手資源,我都主要係用於去鋪喉,同埋去 17 開街井攞水,同埋去進行滅火,而火勢都好短時間之內蔓延得好快,咁我自己亦都 18 係--我以前都未遇過。 19 李澍桓大律師:係。 20 許健安先生:咁而佢不斷--佢燃燒緊嗰啲嘅--當時現場環境都好嘈其實,佢燃燒緊嗰啲嘅竹 21 枝、棚架發出嚟嘅聲音,咁同埋佢不斷上面都有嘢跌落嚟,即係嗰個大聲公都已經 22 發揮到我哋--即係影響到嗰個效果,咁最主要就係當時我哋好大量嘅人手資源都部 23 署咗喺滅火嗰度咁樣樣。 24 李澍桓大律師:同埋我相信你之前都有講過,另外一樣嘢你都要確保你同你嘅隊員喺通訊上 25 面即係始終又係唔好影響到,因為嗰個我相信都係重要嘅考慮,係咪? 26 許健安先生:喺--係,但係喺大聲公呢個作用就... 27 李澍桓大律師:另外,我就知道喺15:02 嘅時候,就即係大概喺事發六分鐘,其實就已經 28 將個--如果我哋睇5090 頁,B10,咁我哋知道喺大概十分鐘之後,我哋就知道你 29 將嗰個火警就升為三級,係咪? 30 許健安先生:係。 31 李澍桓大律師:當然,我一陣間會再同你睇消防處嘅一啲指引嘅,但係當其時你有冇一啲特 32 別因應現場嘅考慮,而決定要將呢個火勢升為三級? 33 許健安先生:有嘅。咁我當時我--當時個環境去到大約15:02 嘅時候,其實我見到宏昌閣 34 其實喺唔同嘅樓宇嗰個嘅面都已經有火蔓延,咁其實成個大廈都好似畀啲濃煙或者 35 火去包圍住咁樣,咁亦都有蔓延嘅趨勢。同埋就係我留意到就係即係宏昌閣嗰個前 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十一天

14 本謄本由Epiq 編製 門同埋正門--後--嘅門口位置都畀一啲嘅跌落嚟嘅雜物去令人冇辦法去進出,咁我 1 預期裏面會有大量嘅居民去待救。咁以我當時嗰個嘅資源同埋人手,係冇辦法應 2 付,所以我當刻就決定將火警升為三級火警。 3 李澍桓大律師:而家呢度我哋睇B2 嗰個文件冊2088 頁,其實我哋可以等大家都了解一下 4 大概乜嘢情況之下,似乎都有啲指引係講幾時應該係將個火警升級嘅。我哋知道你 5 出勤嘅時候,當其時就係宏福苑就係處於所謂叫做一級火嘅情況,係咪? 6 許健安先生:正確。 7 李澍桓大律師:所以我哋見到2088 頁最頂嗰度就係(English Spoken),我反為留意 8 到,雖然呢次宏福苑嘅事件其實從來冇去過二級火嘅,因為一跳就跳咗上三級。但 9 係其實我睇番二級火,嚟點樣界定即係控制中心去出第一個call 嘅時候,係咪一 10 級定係二級嘅話,我見到入面有啲因素,其中就係(c)細段嗰度,佢就話如果嗰個 11 供水嗰度係受到限制嘅時候,咁似乎其實就應該要一出嘅時候就應該係用二級火嚟 12 出嘅。以你所知呢個就住所謂供水有限制,其實係講緊一啲乜嘢嘅情況? 13 許健安先生:我哋呢個文件裏面嗰個二級火警嘅(c)分類嘅嗰個供水受限制嗰個嘅,一般我 14 哋係講緊係一啲可能係偏遠地區,即係一啲嘅比較村郊嘅地方,咁佢嗰個嘅供水地 15 方可能係離嗰個街井比較相當上附近嗰個供水有機會係冇咁有受限嘅時候,我哋就 16 會將呢一類嘅位置就定為二級火警嘅裏面嘅C 分類咁樣樣。 17 李澍桓大律師:係,咁喺嗰個情況,即係當日你見到嘅時候就係似乎一級火,然之後你去到 18 嘅時候就覺得個火勢已經開始係變大,所以你就將佢升為做三級。但係如果我哋睇 19 番2088 頁呢個文件,就似乎其實佢個要求就純粹就係話,如果你喺現場發覺初步 20 到場嘅人員冇辦法處理到嘅話,就應該要升格做三級,係咪咁樣嘅理解? 21 許健安先生:當嗰個一級火警嗰個出動嘅資源同埋人手唔能夠有效控制嘅時候,就應該儘快 22 將火警升級,所以我同意你講法。 23 李澍桓大律師:即係換句說話可唔可以咁理解,就係你當其時作為現場嘅指揮官,喺你所知 24 現場有嘅資源,包括車輛,包括救援人員,即係消防員同事,你都認為當其時嗰個 25 調配其實係唔足以應付嗰個火警,係咪? 26 許健安先生:係。 27 李澍桓大律師:所以你就將佢升咗做三級。喺我哋其實見到,好快其實我哋見到有跟住第四 28 級、第五級,亦都喺如果2089 頁,我哋見到有一個其實第(ix)段嗰度,其實就 29 係一個--應該係咪仲有一個叫災難級嘅一個火警警報? 30 許健安先生:係。 31 李澍桓大律師:當然,我嘅理解應該今次宏福苑呢個火災就冇去到呢一個級別,係咪? 32 許健安先生:冇。 33 李澍桓大律師:係。另一份文件我想你睇嘅就喺B9 嗰個文件冊嘅,咁就如果我哋睇4853 34 頁,咁呢個似乎就係講緊即係一啲救火嘅一啲指引,應該點樣去--乜嘢情況嘅時候 35 去將個火警係升級嘅,係咪? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十一天

15 本謄本由Epiq 編製 許健安先生:係。 1 李澍桓大律師:我相信你都熟悉呢一個咁樣嘅文件嘅,係咪? 2 許健安先生:係。 3 李澍桓大律師:喺呢個文件上面,其中4858 頁,我哋就似乎都見到有啲睇法,就係話 4 3.1.1 呢一段,佢就話“(English Spoken)”,所以點解我頭先問你,即係 5 我話似乎消防嘅首要任務當然就儘量去救人,係咪? 6 許健安先生:係。 7 李澍桓大律師:如果你睇呢一段後面仲有一部分,佢就話“ IC ",我知道就係即係 8 (English Spoken),即係當其時你嘅職責,係咪? 9 許健安先生:係。 10 李澍桓大律師:現場指揮。咁佢呢度就有講,如果我哋讀尾嗰部分就係“ (English 11 Spoken)",咁即係話其實呢度都畀到一啲指引你,係喺乜嘢情況之下你應該要 12 將個火警升級嘅,係咪? 13 許健安先生:係。 14 李澍桓大律師:喺呢一個宏福苑,我知道你係大概即係做咗呢一個(English Spoken) 15 嘅post 應該就係半個小時喥,係咪? 16 許健安先生:大約,係。 17 李澍桓大律師:因為我哋知道有跟住你哋嘅局長就到場,喺15:04 嘅時候就應該係佢代替 18 咗你做現場嘅指揮,係咪? 19 許健安先生:佢正式接管咗指揮應該係... 20 李澍桓大律師:15:19。 21 許健安先生:係,冇錯。 22 李澍桓大律師:即係15:04 佢到場了解咗個情況--15:04 佢接到要求要佢到場,15:19 23 嘅時候佢就到場,然之後去從你手上做咗現場指揮官嘅呢個工作,係咪? 24 許健安先生:係。 25 李澍桓大律師:喺呢一度我想再了解多少少關於當時嗰個情況,因為喺14:57 你觀察完, 26 亦都安排咗一啲同事去做一啲嘗試控制,亦都去了解個情況。你嘅證人口供其實你 27 有講到大概去到15:00 嘅時間,其實你就係留意到個火除咗喺宏昌閣之外,同埋 28 宏昌閣對出嘅空地,其實就似乎宏泰閣嘅底層位置都已經著火,係咪? 29 許健安先生:係,當時我留意到宏泰閣有一片棚網大約有零星嘅幾點火光咁樣樣。 30 李澍桓大律師:喺呢一刻當其時宏泰閣嗰個火勢係你自己親眼睇到定還是係有現場嘅同事向 31 你報告? 32 許健安先生:我自己睇到。 33 李澍桓大律師:喺呢度我哋了解到到當然宏福苑其實係一個都幾大範圍嘅屋苑,亦都有八座 34 嘅大廈,喺你作為現場指揮官,我相信其中一個你一定需要知道嘅就係現場整個環 35 境一啲即時嘅情況,係咪? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十一天

16 本謄本由Epiq 編製 許健安先生:係。 1 李澍桓大律師:同樣地我想了解下救火上面制定嘅一啲政策或者策略。喺你去到現場嘅時 2 候,人手上面能唔能夠令到你可以話派幾個同事可能喺附近嘅環境,未必係直接進 3 行救援嘅工作,但係要佢哋做一啲觀察,尤其是當你見到宏泰閣都似乎開始著火, 4 有一個蔓延嘅跡象嘅時候,人手上面可唔可以容許到你可能俗話講,即係搵一啲觀 5 察員淨係留意住嗰個火勢嘅發展,可唔可以做到呢一點? 6 許健安先生:喺一般嘅一級火警裏面嗰個嘅事故入面呢,嗰個規模其實我哋都有空間可以做 7 呢樣嘢喺入面。 8 李澍桓大律師:係。 9 許健安先生:但係當日26 號宏福苑嗰個情況係個火勢好大,之前我自己亦都冇遇過--即係 10 未曾處理呢一類火警,現場當時嗰個受火警影響嘅範圍好大,而當時我手上面嘅資 11 源或者人手佢哋都有各自嘅任務去做咁樣樣。 12 李澍桓大律師:即係所以就冇辦法話可以搵到有其他同事去觀察住四周圍嘅情況向你匯報? 13 許健安先生:當刻我冇。 14 李澍桓大律師:即係我哋都係嘗試睇番即係從事件上面做一啲反省、檢討,然之後睇下會唔 15 會做得好啲。如果係呢啲大型嘅屋苑發生一啲火災,去到某一個位置嘅時候、某一 16 個時間你覺得,你作為現場指揮官如果有呢一啲咁樣嘅觀察員,甚至乎可能用一啲 17 科技,無人機拍攝到情況嘅情況即時畀到你睇嘅,其實你覺得對於調配人手上面, 18 安排工作上面會唔會有幫助? 19 許健安先生:同意。 20 李澍桓大律師:當然呢個就可能要更高層嘅人士去考慮點樣改善呢個情況。喺當其時我哋知 21 道另一個可能唔係咁開心嘅話題,就係關於你嘅同事何偉豪先生嘅。我哋純粹將個 22 背景交代番先,因為應該就係去到現場嘅時候,就係控制中心嗰方面應該已經收到 23 兩個求助嘅--或者三個添,因為一個就係宏昌閣2701,應該另外仲有就係起碼宏 24 昌2703 同埋802 都似乎有一啲求助嘅需要。喺當其時呢啲求助嘅要求,控制中心 25 係透過乜嘢方式去話畀你知? 26 許健安先生:當時我係透過無線電知道。 27 李澍桓大律師:即係會有一個打入去控制中心,譬如話999 居民要求助,佢哋就係用無線 28 電,即係由控制中心直接將呢啲資訊話畀你知? 29 許健安先生:係,冇錯。 30 李澍桓大律師:當然我知道呢個可能係當時資源上面好奢侈嘅一個做法。其實對於你作為一 31 個現場指揮官,變咗你要應付嘅嘢都幾多,因為你除咗要調配現場嘅同事去做啲乜 32 嘢外之外,其實冇即係另外一個同事專責去接收呢啲訊息,然之後再向你匯報,係 33 咪? 34 許健安先生:其實當時亦都有一隊搜救隊,咁佢搜救隊其實佢就係喺一啲火警事故入面就係 35 專責去處理求助個案一啲隊伍嚟嘅,但係當時我了解到就係喺大約15:03 嘅時 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十一天

17 本謄本由Epiq 編製 候,嗰個搜救隊佢仲係(English Spoken)嚟緊,又或者可能只係啱啱到場咁 1 樣樣,所以當刻我除咗兼顧滅火之外,我亦都要兼顧埋呢啲求助個案。 2 李澍桓大律師:因為你係現場嘅指揮官,我相信就算搜救隊嚟咗,基本上佢哋去做啲乜或者 3 去邊度做搜救,係唔係都應該由你去畀指示等佢哋去做? 4 許健安先生:一般嚟講,搜救隊嘅組成佢本身都已經有一位主任級人員去擔任搜救隊嘅隊 5 長,所以搜救隊隊長佢本身都已經可以有權力去分派佢手上面一啲嘅呼吸器隊去做 6 呢啲求助個案,但係當然佢亦都會向現場嘅總指揮去保持溝通。 7 李澍桓大律師:因為究竟佢哋係唔係譬如安全進入或者你哋當時會唔會採取緊另外一啲滅火 8 嘅行動,咁呢個都可能有啲時間會係需要配合,所以佢點都一定要同你溝通,係 9 咪? 10 許健安先生:同意。 11 李澍桓大律師:但係就住消防員何偉豪先生嗰個工作指令,我哋知道就當其時係唔係應該係 12 你畀呢個指示出去,派一個搜救隊去宏昌嗰度嘗試做救援,係唔係你畀嘅指示嚟 13 㗎? 14 許健安先生:係。 15 李澍桓大律師:同樣地你畀嘅指示係唔係都係純粹靠即係無線電就去發放一個訊息出去,咁 16 就等人哋接應你嗰個指示,係唔係咁樣嘅情況? 17 許健安先生:一般嚟講係,但係因為當時我指派嗰個隊長佢喺我隔籬,所以我即係面對面同 18 佢講。 19 李澍桓大律師:正如你剛才所講,即係我亦都講過,宏福苑都係一個幾大嘅屋苑,亦都牽涉 20 八座大樓,亦都由於因為佢進行緊維修,我哋事實上有啲片段都睇到其實要認邊一 21 座係邊一座其實都似乎有啲困難嘅,你當其時有冇呢一個咁樣嘅困難? 22 許健安先生:當時本身我知道係邊一個樓宇係乜嘢嘅,但係我承認--我同意就係喺大維修階 23 段佢鋪咗好多嘅棚網,所以係有機會,但係我係知道佢啲座。 24 李澍桓大律師:尤其是即係你自己本身就因為係屬於大埔分局,你都講即係相對地對呢個老 25 牌屋苑你都可能叫做熟悉啲,但係如果可能因為亦都有好多時間其實係需要由第二 26 個環頭嘅消防局調派啲同事過嚟幫手,好似喺今次呢個情況入面,我哋知道有馬鞍 27 山、有沙田,甚至乎港島區嘅消防車都應該係有派員喺唔同時間到宏福苑嘅,係 28 咪? 29 許健安先生:係。 30 李澍桓大律師:同樣地即係又係事後做一個檢討。如果當日現場能夠有一啲指引或者話甚至 31 乎有資源可以畀到你哋,消防處或者警方喺一啲適當位置樹立番一啲指示牌,即係 32 起碼你哋自己同事會分得到邊一座打邊一座嘅,呢個對於你調派或者同事喺實地工 33 作嘅時候,你覺得會唔會有幫助? 34 許健安先生:你意思係指喺現場度立即樹立一啲嘅... 35 李澍桓大律師:可能路標或者一啲指示牌。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十一天

18 本謄本由Epiq 編製 許健安先生:喺現場立即做?因為其實據我所知後期嘅時候,我哋有一啲流動指揮車到場, 1 其實我哋有更高層次嘅一啲指揮官,佢哋喺指揮車上面都有一啲嘅部署,我相信呢 2 啲地理位置,座數呢啲佢哋都會係知道同埋會有標示出嚟。 3 李澍桓大律師:但係我講緊嘅就係在地,即係前線真係你嘅同事要可能進入某一座大廈進行 4 拯救、進行救火嘅時候,即係好老實講我自己有去過兩次現場做視察,其實我當時 5 邊一座打邊座,如果你淨係畀個地圖我,其實我自己都冇辦法分得到。咁你覺得即 6 係如果能夠當時有一啲方案制備得到,起碼令尤其是其他分局未必去過宏福苑嘅同 7 事,即係你叫佢去A 座嘅,起碼佢都自己有個有地標話到畀佢知呢座係A 座定B 8 座,你覺得其實呢一個都係唔係一個可以考慮喺將來大型屋苑入面一個可行嘅方 9 案? 10 陸啟康法官:我諗你可唔可以講實在啲?唔可以救緊火嗰陣時我哋再擺路標,擺易拉架唔可 11 能。其實應該--但係今次當然即係我哋都知道其實何消防員唔好彩,即係佢其實諗 12 住去宏昌,就去咗宏泰。但係其實喺咁嘅情況之下,我哋調好多區嘅人嚟到,其實 13 呢個錯誤有陣時好難避免,或者你諗唔諗到有咩嘢方法可以避免得到? 14 許健安先生:其實就住呢個屋苑今次發生呢個火警,其實正如我哋一開始喺我哋當區嘅消防 15 局有製作緊急預案,咁呢個預案裏面其實我哋都有即係一啲(English 16 Spoken)話到畀大家知就係佢每一座數嘅位置、名稱,我哋呢個預案其實喺當初 17 製作完成,我哋都有將佢傳達畀我哋總區裏面每一個消防局都知道,所以透過佢哋 18 日常嘅訓練講堂,亦都係有機會去接觸到。再配合我哋車輛上面有車輛終端機,畀 19 個主管去了解到,亦都會將呢個訊息可能車輛裏面其他隊員都會發放畀佢哋。咁當 20 然譬如好似頭先主席或者律師講到,就係話如果有更加多一啲嘅工具或者一啲嘅資 21 源喺現場度,對於每一個大廈去做標示,當然多啲資源或者多啲嘢係更加理想、更 22 加好嘅,呢個我絕對同意。 23 李澍桓大律師:另外,我哋知道首先何偉豪先生,就係因為我哋有證據睇到其實佢之所以入 24 錯咗個大廈其中一個原因,其實就係佢中間嘅時候停低咗去幫助一個似乎坐輪椅嘅 25 居民,所以令到佢同同行隊員就走失咗,入錯咗一座大樓。但係我知道--想講番嗰 26 個程序上面,就係當佢入去進行搜救嘅時候,其實係唔係應該每一座大廈入面,即 27 係進入個火場嘅時候,其實應該有個叫做入口嘅指揮主任(English 28 Spoken),係唔係有呢樣嘢? 29 許健安先生:係。 30 李澍桓大律師:個目的就係佢要記錄邊一個消防員入咗去,呢個係第一個作用,係咪? 31 許健安先生:係。 32 李澍桓大律師:第二樣嘢亦都係最重要嘅,就係因為佢哋戴嗰個呼吸系統,即係你哋所謂叫 33 嗰䭅BA 其實係有個時間嘅限制,係咪? 34 許健安先生:係。 35 李澍桓大律師:所以其實出面嘅呢一位入口指揮主任,其實佢就係負責去監察住當某一個同 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十一天

19 本謄本由Epiq 編製 事個BA 可能就嚟簡單啲嚟講就係冇氧氣嘅話,咁就要叫番佢出嚟離開個火場,係 1 咪咁嘅意思? 2 許健安先生:係。 3 李澍桓大律師:喺呢一個事件入面睇下你幫唔幫我哋。首先,就似乎何偉豪喺入去嘅時候, 4 佢應該係冇一個紀錄去睇到佢曾經入過火場,你知唔知點解會咁樣發生? 5 許健安先生:當刻喺火警初期嘅時候,呢個入口指揮其實係未設立,咁係因為我當初處理呢 6 個求助個案2701 嘅時候,其實我哋都有指引,就係除非現場總指揮係有另外嘅或 7 者呼吸器總指揮有一啲其他嘅指示,如果唔係一般嗰個搶救車嘅主管佢就會係要設 8 立呢個入口指揮。咁知道就係佢呢一個車間,佢最屘其實係因為宏昌閣一啲雜物阻 9 擋啲入口,佢哋係未能夠成功進入大廈入面,佢哋當時仍然係喺嗰個外圍嘅位置, 10 即係宏福苑外圍嘅位置,佢哋當時係做滅火,希望儘快打開一個缺口可以入去大廈 11 裏面處理呢個大廈求助個案,所以當刻佢哋係未進入呢個大廈裏面,所以當時呢個 12 入口指揮係未設立。 13 李澍桓大律師:但係當然我哋知道其實就算原本都係諗住如果佢跟個指示,你畀嘅指示就係 14 去宏昌閣2701 度做一個拯救,係咪? 15 許健安先生:係。 16 李澍桓大律師:所以係唔係宏昌嗰陣時當時都未有呢個入口指揮主任即係駐守喺嗰個大廈度 17 做呢啲咁樣嘅監測或者記錄嘅工作? 18 許健安先生:當刻喺呢個搜救隊進入去現場嘅時候,處理呢個求助個案,佢哋係未設立個入 19 口指揮,因為佢哋根本都未能夠進入呢個宏昌閣裏面去到做工作。 20 陸啟康法官:所以宏泰就更加冇,因為宏泰嗰陣時都未去做嗰個拯救工作,係咪? 21 許健安先生:係,冇錯。 22 李澍桓大律師:首先如果咁樣,我想了解下,係唔係即係話--因為我哋知道何偉豪先生其實 23 去到最後入咗宏泰,亦都上咗大概30 樓嘅。喺嗰刻如果係咁嘅話,即係其實唯一 24 一個有入到火場或者入到大廈去做拯救嘅,其實就係得何偉豪先生,因為如果咁樣 25 根據你嘅講法,宏昌其實係未有消防員可以進入到嗰個大廈入面,係咪? 26 許健安先生:同意,我理解係。 27 李澍桓大律師:喺剛才我哋所講15:19 嘅時候,就係你大埔消防局嘅局長就到場,你做咗 28 一個匯報,就你主要匯報咗有幾樣嘢嘅,其中樣嘢就係關於何偉豪先生,因為應該 29 喺嗰陣時你就已經收到有一個所謂佢求救(English Spoken )嗰個資訊,係 30 咪? 31 許健安先生:係。 32 李澍桓大律師:所以我個理解,就係雖然就由張局長取代咗你去做現場指揮,但係你就應該 33 係繼續負責做嘗試拯救呢位同事嘅嗰個救援工作,係咪? 34 許健安先生:正確。 35 李澍桓大律師:係唔係你負責做主導嗰個拯救嘅行動? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十一天

20 本謄本由Epiq 編製 許健安先生:係。 1 李澍桓大律師:就住當其時嗰個拯救嘅情況,我想你講畀我哋知你大概做咗啲乜嘢或者畀咗 2 啲咩嘢指示出嚟? 3 許健安先生:當刻我喺無線電度聽到有一個咁嘅求助個案,其實我當時我唔了解佢個身分, 4 我淨係聽到佢即係喺30 樓被困,我亦都唔知佢喺邊一個大廈其實。當時宏昌閣嘅 5 火勢係最大,其實當時宏昌閣就即係濃煙包圍住,亦都好大火,所以佢大機會會喺 6 宏昌閣度,所以當刻我成立咗四隊嘅一個緊急應變隊,其後其實都有第五隊,佢哋 7 都係準備進入個大廈裏面去處理呢個(English Spoken)嘅一個工作,當刻宏 8 昌閣係礙於火勢,同埋不斷跌落嚟嘅竹枝、棚架係阻擋咗嗰個出入口,我哋都唔能 9 夠成功進入,所以佢哋當刻有啲會係救火,希望可以係儘快打開一個缺口可以進入 10 到去。 11 李澍桓大律師:喺呢度停一停你,如果係咁樣,當你收到何偉豪發出嘅求救訊息話喺某一座 12 大廈嘅30 樓入面,你當其時覺唔覺得驚訝,就係因為如果照你喺地面作為指揮 13 官,或者當時嗰個訊息應該係冇消防員--宏昌就入唔到去,其他嘅大廈就應該唔會 14 有消防員進入到去,即係你會唔會嗰一刻都覺得驚訝,點解佢會去咗一個大廈入 15 面? 16 許健安先生:當刻我係有啲意外點解即係喺一個火勢咁嚴重、惡劣嘅一個大廈入面,佢可以 17 咁短時間咁快去到一個咁高嘅位置。 18 李澍桓大律師:喺嗰個拯救行動入面除咗你之外,其實仲有幾多同事係參與嘗試去拯救何偉 19 豪嗰個行動? 20 許健安先生:當時大約有五至六隊車,佢就係都一齊去處理呢個求助個案,但係其實當刻大 21 家現場都知道呢個消息,其實大家都--有啲畀我指派咗去做緊急應變隊,其實其他 22 消防員有啲佢哋都已經係儘快去射水,喺個宏昌閣入口度儘快想撲滅嗰個火勢,可 23 以成功入到去。 24 李澍桓大律師:如果用數目,人數嚟講,即係同事嘅人數嚟講,有幾多人係參與去做呢個拯 25 救?即係唔好理佢乜嘢隊伍或崗位。 26 許健安先生:當時我諗十幾個--二十個,係,大約,因為我唔係好...(聽不清) 27 李澍桓大律師:喺小休前我想問埋你呢個問題先。就係由於當其時佢自己都講唔到身處喺邊 28 度,你亦都唔預計其實有人會入到個大廈入面,就住嘗試第起碼第一件事去搵番佢 29 喺邊度,呢一個工作上面你有冇當其時畀咩嘢指示去處理,即係採取啲咩嘢行動去 30 嘗試(English Spoken)番佢? 31 許健安先生:當時其實我都有去回應佢,即係睇下去了解,你究竟你係邊一個同事去發出呢 32 個訊息,但係佢冇回應,所以之後我就做咗我頭先所講嘅一啲工作,去嘗試做一個 33 拯救咁樣樣。 34 李澍桓大律師:即係唔好介意我咁講,即係話其實當時去邊度搵番佢,你哋都冇頭緒,唔知 35 去邊度搵佢?因為都仲有七座大廈。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十一天

21 本謄本由Epiq 編製 許健安先生:同意。 1 李澍桓大律師:主席,我會照落去下一個議題,可能而家係適合嘅時間。 2 陸啟康法官:十分鐘夠唔夠休息? 3 李澍桓大律師:夠。 4 陸啟康法官:咁我哋休息十分鐘。 5

6 11 時19 分聆訊押後 7 11 時29 分聆訊恢復 8

9 陸啟康法官:係,請繼續。 10 李澍桓大律師:許先生,我哋知道你15:02 就將個火警升級,升做為三級,我亦都聽過你- 11 -即係我哋都聽過你講,其實你之前當然都未有經驗處理宏福苑咁樣咁大型嘅火災, 12 我相信你好多嘅上司比你有經驗嘅人亦都可能冇處理過嘅。所以我嘗試而家跟住落 13 嚟問你嘅一啲問題呢,就係希望可以睇下--檢討,睇番當時做嘅一啲決定會唔會可 14 能有改善嘅空間。所以第一樣嘢,就係去到現場當你睇到--14:57 見到喺宏昌嗰 15 個火勢你都形容燒得好猛烈,已經燒咗8、9 樓咁高嘅時候,喺嗰一刻你有冇諗過 16 或者而家睇番轉頭,你覺得係咪應該當其時就立即將個火警升格做三級呢? 17 許健安先生:我當時14:56 到場,其實去到後面大約我諗一分鐘喥,我做咗一個評估,跟 18 住然之後再做一啲部署,跟住大約喺我到場之後六分鐘我就將火警升級,15:02, 19 其實如果而家事後睇番,當然如果我知道個結果係咁樣樣嘅話,當然我落車我就會 20 即刻去做呢個火警升級嘅動作咁樣樣,當然越快會越好。 21 李澍桓大律師:就住我哋頭先睇嗰個指引,即係有啲文件,就純粹就話如果去到現場你冇辦 22 法處理到就升級咁,你覺得就住呢一個咁樣嘅指引,對於你作為前線,尤其是要做 23 指揮官呢個角色嘅時候,幫唔幫到你,定還是你覺得多啲較為實際嘅一啲嘢畀你, 24 會令你更加易去做呢個決定? 25 許健安先生:其實我覺得個指引都畀咗--即係提供咗好多一啲指引或者一啲一個判斷,喺現 26 場嘅指揮去做一個--根據個實際環境去做判斷,其實佢裏面都有講到就係話如果唔 27 能夠有效控制個火勢,其實佢係可以選擇升級。我覺得佢都畀到指引畀現場總指揮 28 去做一個--有一個彈性去根據現場實際情況去做一個判斷。 29 李澍桓大律師:除咗我哋睇到嗰句,「你處理唔到嘅就升級」嘅呢一句咁樣咁簡單嘅說話之 30 外,喺你個訓練或者你日常工作,有冇另外一啲指引係畀過你,譬如你要考慮啲乜 31 嘢情況先至去做唔做升級嘅呢個決定㗎?定還是就係得嗰一句「初步到場處理唔到 32 就升級」咁? 33 許健安先生:其實都會除咗喺一個即係入職訓練,其實都會睇番啲佢教啲指引,再配合之後 34 嘅一啲經驗,或者都會知道就係其實都要睇番就係當時實際個情況,其實嗰個車輛 35 嘅人手同埋個現場資源能唔能夠真係可以控制到現場嗰個具體情況。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十一天

22 本謄本由Epiq 編製 陸啟康法官:同埋我諗你都要少少時間去觀察咗個環境你先可以作出呢個判斷,你唔可以一 1 落車就升級㗎,係咪? 2 許健安先生:同意。 3 李澍桓大律師:當然,我哋知道就其實都有一個重要嘅指引畀到你哋,就係如果你有疑問、 4 有懷疑嘅時候,就應該寧願做咗個升級嘅決定就好過唔升級,係咪咁樣嘅做法? 5 許健安先生:同意。 6 李澍桓大律師:你亦都講,其實去到好早嘅時間,你已經察覺到其他嘅座數都已經開始似乎 7 有蔓延跡象嘞。而家睇番轉頭你覺得應唔應該早啲做去疏散嘅呢一個決定呢? 8 許健安先生:如果根據即係今時今日咁樣去睇嘅話,當然儘早做疏散會係越理想。 9 李澍桓大律師:就住你話最先留意到除咗宏昌,跟住就係宏泰都開始即係燒著咗嘞有啲地 10 方,喺當一刻可唔可以解釋一下點解冇做到一個起碼疏散宏泰嘅嗰個決定? 11 許健安先生:因為其實由我15:00 發現到佢有幾點火光嘅時候,嗰下望到,咁當時我大部 12 分手上面嘅資源就係佢去集中處理宏昌閣當時個火勢係好大喇,同埋佢嗰個入口位 13 置係好大火。咁其實當時我大量資源去做咗呢個滅火嘅工作,而我亦都見到其他樓 14 宇亦都有我哋有消防人員同埋警察喺現場,大家都--喺附近大廈走出嚟嘅居民都疏 15 散去--帶去一個安全嘅地方,因為畢竟有一啲嘅... 16 李澍桓大律師:但係個問題就係,即係當然有啲居民可能就落嚟睇熱鬧又好,乜都好喇,就 17 走出嚟,但係我哋知道宏泰都係冇嗰個火警警報系統嘅,首先第一樣嘢,你有冇派 18 人,譬如嘗試入去當其時叫佢著咗警報系統,通知啲居民去做疏散,起碼就住宏 19 泰? 20 許健安先生:當時其實我有叫隊員喺--即係當我見到火勢開始蔓延,咁有叫啲隊員去附近, 21 去啲大廈度嘗試啟動警鐘去做一個--啟動火警鐘,我事後知道我當時係有一啲隊員 22 係進入宏建、宏新同埋宏道嘗試去打爛火警鐘,即係打爛個扲手,希望啟動火警 23 鐘,但係唔能夠成功,所以嗰刻開始我就知道,似乎宏福苑嗰個火警鐘好似有問題 24 喎咁樣樣。 25 李澍桓大律師:係大概乜嘢時間你係知道個火警警報系統... 26 許健安先生:大約三點--可能三點七、三點八喥咁樣樣,即係大約呢啲時間。 27 李澍桓大律師:三點八,即係你意思係已經由張局長做咗嗰個現場指揮官之後,係咪呀? 28 許健安先生:係。 29 李澍桓大律師:以你所知呢件事有冇報告到畀張局長知話其實個警報系統似乎好多座大廈都 30 失效? 31 許健安先生:我唔記得,但係佢都應該係有留意到,佢應該知道。 32 李澍桓大律師:唔。另一個問題就係我想問一問關於個水壓嘅問題。因為似乎就係有證據顯 33 示到你哋去到現場嘅時候,係咪嗰個消防喉嗰個水壓其實係唔足夠? 34 許健安先生:我冇聽過呢個講法。 35 李澍桓大律師:首先我想問你喺呢個消防系統上面,如果即係我哋知道每一座嘅天台都有一 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十一天

23 本謄本由Epiq 編製 個所謂叫做消防缸,嗰度如果有水或者冇水,對於你哋救援,即係救火嘅工作有冇 1 影響㗎? 2 許健安先生:當刻救火有冇影響? 3 李澍桓大律師:嗄。 4 許健安先生:我哋如果冇使用到大廈裏面嗰個嘅消防栓/喉轆系統,咁就唔會有影響,因為 5 我哋最主要都係喺外面靠我哋消防車個泵去將啲來水去加壓,去做滅火。 6 李澍桓大律師:係,但係如果要進入火場入面,你哋嘅用話,我諗就叫做「打火」,要入去 7 打火嘅時候就應該好多時要用到消防栓嗰個供水系統,係咪? 8 許健安先生:係。 9 李澍桓大律師:我哋知道供水嘅來源有兩個,一個就喺街喉入去個大廈就加壓上去個消防 10 栓,另外一個供水系統就似乎就喺天面嗰個水缸嗰度嘅。先講個天面嘅水缸,即係 11 如果嗰度係冇水嘅話,對你哋入去火場打火嗰陣時有冇一個影響㗎? 12 許健安先生:一般如果我哋要進去火場裏面--大廈裏面做救火,我哋都會使用佢個消防栓/ 13 喉轆系統,如果你話個水缸冇水嘅話,係絕對有影響。 14 李澍桓大律師:係。咁第二樣嘢就係街喉供水入去個加壓泵,然之後泵上去啲消防栓嗰個系 15 統度,係咪? 16 許健安先生:係。 17 李澍桓大律師:即係同樣地,如果個加壓泵係唔運作嘅話,我相信就會有一定嘅影響,喺初 18 期起碼,係咪? 19 許健安先生:如果我哋當刻入到去大廈裏面做一個使用消防栓/喉轆系統去做救火嘅話,絕 20 對係有影響。 21 李澍桓大律師:係,但係如果真係個加壓泵係壞咗或者熄咗嘅話,消防係咪可以有另外一啲 22 額外嘅工具令到個水壓都加大番㗎? 23 許健安先生:我哋係可以靠我哋嘅消防泵車或者供水車輛嘅本身嗰個泵去做加壓,但效果一 24 入定係冇本身嗰個大廈裏面嗰個--如果有嗰個消防泵操作正常個效果咁理想。 25 李澍桓大律師:唔,即係其實唔多唔少對救火都係有一定嘅影響嘅,即係如果個供水系統, 26 大廈本身個消防供水系統係出咗問題? 27 許健安先生:同意。 28 李澍桓大律師:第三個部分,關於救火嘅就係我哋知道喺個大廈入面就有一啲叫做緊急車輛 29 通道EVA,同時間我哋都知道喺個現場入面,其實係有一啲限制啲車輛係冇辦法駛 30 近著火嘅大廈嘅,呢個你有冇--首先有冇咁樣嘅經驗,即係當日? 31 許健安先生:當日我哋都係遇到我--譬如我自己嗰架車輛為例,我哋都要向後褪番少少,嚟 32 避免上面跌落嚟嘅燃燒嘅竹枝、棚架嚟到去即係燒著我哋啲消防車輛。咁所以係當 33 刻喺大廈上面不斷有好多竹枝、棚架燃燒嘅雜物跌落嚟,對我哋嚟講係一個好大嘅 34 挑戰。 35 李澍桓大律師:唔。我到過現場,即係我見到大廈同嗰個緊急車輛通道中間,你哋都有同事 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十一天

24 本謄本由Epiq 編製 當時解釋過畀我哋知,就似乎由於佢又有欄杆,又可能做咗個公園、種樹,所以其 1 實就算佢哋想駛架車埋去呢,即時要移除呢啲障礙物都係有困難嘅,以你當日救火 2 嘅親身經驗,呢個係咪都係令到其中救援出現困難嘅一個地方? 3 許健安先生:呢啲設施無疑都會為我哋滅火救援有一啲挑戰。 4 李澍桓大律師:唔。我比較關注就係尤其是喺個大廈出入口即係前後,你頭先都講到有啲竹 5 枝,有好多著咗火嘅障礙物跌咗落嚟嘅嗰個情況,喺現時消防處有嘅一啲技術或者 6 一啲工具上面,同埋配合番當時嗰個情況喇,其實係有冇辦法去移除嗰陣時嗰啲障 7 礙物㗎? 8 許健安先生:你意思是係佢跌落嚟,然之後pile up 咗嗰啲嘅雜物? 9 李澍桓大律師:嗄,因為我哋知道有好多係著緊火,仲喺地下度燒緊。 10 許健安先生:固然我哋都會有一啲大型啲嘅工具,或者一啲專門嘅一啲隊伍去做呢啲比較重 11 型嘅一啲災難事故嘅環境嘅,咁但係當刻個情況就係佢有好多嘢不斷跌咁樣跌落 12 嚟,即係我哋可能拎開一啲,佢又不斷又有嘢跌落嚟咁樣樣,咁所以係好有挑戰。 13 李澍桓大律師:應該係咪好似好初期就算想嘗試去進入個大廈,即係宏昌嘅時候,都已經好 14 似有同事係受傷,係咪? 15 許健安先生:我事後理解,係。 16 李澍桓大律師:喺去到邊一個階段,首先第一以你所了解,無論做指揮官或者之後,係消防 17 員真係可以進入譬如宏昌去做內部救火嗰個情況,你知唔知去到咩嘢時間先至做得 18 到? 19 許健安先生:我事後知道就大約可能係四點幾嗰啲時候,係我哋可以入到去,即係底層開始 20 一路上去做滅火。 21 李澍桓大律師:係,都等我哋大家了解一下,其實一般嚟講,如果進入火場你哋本身有啲乜 22 嘢配備係令你哋可以進入火場,同埋我想再了解一下著咗火入面嗰個環境,先講個 23 配備。 24 許健安先生:我哋消防員進入,我哋本身個配備都會有一個抗火衣。咁另外都會有... 25 李澍桓大律師:即係我哋成日見到講嘅「黃金戰衣」,係咪呀? 26 許健安先生:係,正確。另外,都會有一個頭盔喇,另外會有個人手電筒,咁另外都會有一 27 個抗火手套、同埋都會有一對靴咁樣,另外,我哋都會佩戴呢個呼吸輔助器,如果 28 進入一啲有濃煙波及嘅地方嘅話,亦都會有面罩等等。 29 李澍桓大律師:喺當日宏昌閣或者宏福苑著咗火嘅大廈為例,火我哋知道主要喺開頭嘅初期 30 就係由外部燒,跟住就燒入去某一啲單位,我想講個溫度,當其時喺個大廈入面嘅 31 溫度,以你所理解係去到幾多度? 32 許健安先生:呢個我唔知道。 33 李澍桓大律師:即係我哋聽過有啲講緊話去到攝氏四五百度,以你嘅訓練或者你嘅經驗,係 34 咪會有咁嘅情況? 35 許健安先生:係會有可能。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十一天

25 本謄本由Epiq 編製 李澍桓大律師:「黃金戰衣」,即係你哋個保護衣抗火衣,可以頂到幾多度嘅溫度㗎,你知 1 唔知呀? 2 許健安先生:一般嚟講,可能即係頭先你所講,四五百度呢啲溫度係可以抵禦到。 3 李澍桓大律師:另外一樣嘢就係如果喺個電梯嗰個升降機唔運作嘅情況之下,我哋知道宏福 4 苑就總共三十一層樓,你哋嘅裝備如果假設由地面進入去,地下進入去嘅時候,係 5 咪都可以即係一般你哋消防員可以應付到起碼上到31 樓,即係行樓梯上到31 樓? 6 許健安先生:我諗可能要視乎當時嗰個樓梯個環境同埋嗰個情況係點樣樣,火勢、濃煙咁樣 7 樣。 8 李澍桓大律師:係,如果係滿布濃煙、火勢,咁當然想行都未必行到,係咪? 9 許健安先生:同意,會係一個好大挑戰。 10 李澍桓大律師:嚟到最後,我想畀你睇一睇少部分嘅相片,因為等你確認番當時個情況。首 11 先,我想畀你睇番宏福苑未火災之前嘅一啲資料嘅圖片。你見到譬如舉個例呢個宏 12 泰閣,我哋見到就出面嗰度未有棚架,亦都似乎呢個就係嗰個正門嘅位置,係咪? 13 許健安先生:我唔肯定佢係正門。 14 李澍桓大律師:我或者跟住--即係我哋留意住呢個就係冇障礙、冇竹枝,火燭之前嘅一個資 15 料圖片嚟嘅,我想畀啲關於火災之後嘅相片你睇下。我哋可以睇其中,搵一張我哋 16 係睇到譬如嗰個棚架入面,如果我哋睇下方嗰張呢,似乎就係見到好多竹枝倒塌咗 17 嘅一啲棚架,你講唔講得到話憑呢張相,我哋望入去張相嘅遠嗰度,係咪就係一個 18 入口嘅地方嚟㗎?定還是你知唔知? 19 許健安先生:頭先... 20 李澍桓大律師:頭先--我哋知道你有個同事企喺度。 21 許健安先生:佢前面,我相信係嗰個係一個入口。 22 李澍桓大律師:前面有個入口,喺當其時呢一個所謂下塌嘅棚架、竹枝燃燒嘅地方,到最後 23 你哋係點樣解決去移除?因為我哋知道到最後都有入到宏昌閣、入到宏泰,係用乜 24 嘢方法去樣移除呢一啲障礙物入去㗎? 25 許健安先生:據我理解,我哋當時嗰個--其實因為不斷都有好多燃燒嘅雜物跌落嚟,其實我 26 哋都喺滅火嘅過程一路將一啲跌落嚟pile up 咗嘅一啲竹枝...(聽不清),我 27 哋搬開佢。咁然後製造咗... 28 李澍桓大律師:搬開係用機器定係用人手? 29 許健安先生:當刻我哋用人手,即係徒手搬開佢,咁製造咗個缺口,咁我哋就能夠入到去, 30 我地都儘量入去去做滅火救援,即係我哋目標唔係去將全個阻塞物去移除佢咁樣 31 樣,我地製造到一個缺口能夠順利進入,我哋都會進入咁樣樣。但係不斷好快後期 32 可能又有一啲嘅竹枝、棚架跌落嚟嘅時候,佢可能又重新再堵塞咗,我哋又要不斷 33 再做呢個動作咁樣樣。 34 李澍桓大律師:正如我剛才所講,我哋希望可以吸取教訓改善,首先,就住作為一個當時你 35 做咗一個所謂現場嘅指揮官都有大概半個鐘咁樣嘅時間,而家你睇番轉頭,你覺得 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十一天

26 本謄本由Epiq 編製 有冇嘢會令到你首先第一,對於評估嗰個當時嘅情況,尤其是作為調配上面,安排 1 拯救嘅工作上面,你曾經喺個前線,你認為有冇嘢係令到如果做一啲改善、多一啲 2 訓練,會係令到今次嘅救援可能更加順利? 3 許健安先生:我諗即係呢一場火警其實都係好大型,同埋亦都係前所未見嘅,我會咁樣講。 4 而當刻我哋每一個同事其實都想儘快去做--入去去做一個--因應個現場環境嘅情況 5 嚟到入去做滅火救援。而呢個就係當時我其實喺嗰個階段嘅時候,我自己都--無論 6 我或者我嘅同事,我哋都盡力想去做一個滅火救援。即係但係當然日後如果調查報 7 告有任何一啲要改善嘅地方嘅話,我哋落實咗一啲政策,我哋一定會全力配合。 8 李澍桓大律師:放心,我而家想問你嘅就係因為你始終係前線,亦都有一定嘅救火嘅經驗, 9 所以我哋希望即係聽你,睇下你經歷過今次之後,你認為有冇一啲嘢我哋應該要考 10 慮、參考?另一樣嘢,就係從你嘅經驗,你覺得喺疏散上面,尤其是我哋知道個警 11 報系統似乎係失效,我哋亦都明白,尤其是喺初期到場嘅人手就一定冇可能咁奢侈 12 做到好多逐家逐戶拍門,你覺得經歷過今次呢個事件之後,有冇乜嘢嘢你認為可以 13 畀到意見去令到啲人疏散,或者更加意識到其實係有火警,記住呀,個火警警報系 14 統係失效嘅,失靈嘅,你認為有冇嘢可以做得到呢? 15 許健安先生:我諗可能現場我哋--即係前線喺現場度嘅時候,可能會由--會唔會有一啲合適 16 嘅--即係事後睇番,即係會唔會有一啲合適嘅一啲嘅廣播系統去做一個--即係畀啲 17 市民去--大廈裏面嘅居民知道有火警發生。即係例如果頭先我哋討論過嘅,會唔會 18 即係就算我哋都要--如果事後知道已經係無可避免會有一個咁樣嘅擴散同埋蔓延嘅 19 情況,會唔會都會去安排啲人手去譬如使用大聲公或者咁樣。咁但係呢個係我哋即 20 係事後,如果真係而家呢一個角度知道無可避免會咁樣蔓延我哋會做嘅嘢,不過... 21 李澍桓大律師:可能你都留意到即係市民又好、傳媒又好,都有一個講法,就係我哋其實政 22 府有一套系統係可以發放一啲信息,提醒人可能有災難或者有重大事件,咁喺個手 23 機就會發放一啲信息,你覺得呢一個系統如果當時啟用嘅,會唔會幫到你去疏散啲 24 居民? 25 陸啟康法官:佢係咪適合嘅人回答呢個問題呢? 26 李澍桓大律師:我諗睇下佢前線,佢認為會唔會慳到一啲資源,起碼你可以處理去救火,個 27 系統就用嚟通知人? 28 許健安先生:我評論唔到。 29 李澍桓大律師:主席,我冇其他問題問。 30 陸啟康法官:有冇邊個涉事方想--我諗政府最後,好唔好呀?有冇邊個其他涉事方想問先? 31 歐陽伯權博士:唔該主席,許生,我想有一個問題係問一問你,許生,喺呢邊,唔該。我想 32 問你頭先提一提嗰個「黃金戰衣」同埋個裝備方面,喺你嘅認知,我哋而家嘅所謂 33 「黃金戰衣」或者裝備係咪係世界上叫做最好嘅呢?喺你哋嘅認知,你覺得我哋可 34 唔可以喺呢方面要優化一啲呢?唔該。 35 許健安先生:你好,我自己理解,就係我哋而家嘅裝備,我哋嘅抗火衣個功能其實都已經係 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十一天

27 本謄本由Epiq 編製 好優--即係喺世界上面已經係好先進,同埋亦都係嗰個能力--抗火能力已經係好好 1 嘅。至於有冇一啲再好啲嘅一啲嘅抗火衣,其實我哋如果有理想嘅,我哋不時會檢 2 討囉,我相信處方。 3 歐陽伯權博士:唔該。 4 許健安先生:唔該。 5 陳健波議員:我都想跟進,即係就係氧氣嗰個系統好重要㗎嘛,因為你哋有時仲會不但止自 6 己用,仲要畀埋嗰啲你救到人用吖嘛。 7 許健安先生:係。 8 陳健波議員:咁但係好似我理解呢,我唔知真正假,就係話咁多年嚟其實都冇乜變化,都係 9 可能半個鐘,最多咪半個鐘,但係其實世界上或者你有冇研究一啲咁重要嘅器具, 10 對你救火咁重要嘅,有冇不斷去研究?譬如話國內點呀?世界上個標準係點呀?即 11 係當然有啲人就話,因為個重量個問題,要兩個樽喇或者點樣,但係其實係咪可以 12 合併一個樽,一個咁嘅裝晒佢可以容量多啲,或者唔好咁重,因為好重吖嘛嗰個 13 嘢,即係好多嘢係可以諗,你哋呢方面有冇--即係係消防處,當然我遲啲都會問消 14 防處長嗰啲喇。 15 陸啟康法官:你答到就答,答唔到就唔答。 16 陳健波議員:你自己作為一個用家,即係你覺得邊啲係緊要啲呀,係咪需要長啲時間呀咁 17 樣? 18 許健安先生:我了解你嗰個問題,就係嗰個呼吸--如果嗰個長度時間越長會對我哋越好,呢 19 個係當然嘅。但係我唔了解就係佢係咪我哋有冇--即係世界上面其他嘅標準,但係 20 我相信我哋部門有相關單位或者同事係有機會答到呢個問題,但係我答唔到呢個問 21 題。 22 陳健波議員:我想問多一個,你前線你有冇提出呢個要求話「喂,我哋好需要呢樣嘢喎,點 23 解冇人去睇,或者係咪需要睇呢樣嘢,你有冇大家討論或者都有提出呢個問題? 24 許健安先生:我哋都有適當嘅渠道不時同處方去--即係管理層去反映,即係各種嘅嗰個工具 25 上面嘅意見咁樣樣。 26 陳健波議員:但係有冇特別提呢一個問題? 27 許健安先生:我相信我哋同事都有就住呼吸器嗰樣嘢,有適當嘅渠道同管理層去反映呢個問 28 題。 29 陸啟康法官:另外我想跟進一樣嘢,即係你喺嗰個聽證會嘅較早時間,有一個居民就話見到 30 佢哋--尤其是開頭嗰時個消防喉個水壓係唔夠,咁你--即係頭先--你對於呢個觀 31 察,你會覺得係唔正確,抑或應該其實--你哋嗰陣時喺個水井個井喉嗰度攞水㗎 32 嘛? 33 許健安先生:我哋係利用現場宏福苑佢裏面嗰個街井去攞水,咁我自己見到由我同事攞水到 34 開水,然之後到之後射水,即係我就睇唔到話一個--因為如果水壓唔夠,我知道咩 35 嘢情況,但係當時我冇睇到--睇唔到呢個問題。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十一天

28 本謄本由Epiq 編製 陸啟康法官:咁或者孫大律師有冇? 1 孫靖乾資深大律師:唔該主席,我淨係有一個問題想跟進下。頭先主席問到嗰個攞水嘅情 2 況,咁我淨係想再問一問,就係話頭先李大律師都有問你,就係話如果嗰個天台嗰 3 個消防水缸冇水嘅情況,咁會唔會有影響?我淨係想--我唔知道你會唔會可以即係 4 答到,或者如果唔係,我再問其他消防嘅同事,就係其實如果譬如當時嗰個消防喉 5 或者係喉轆,或者消防栓嘅系統,就算嗰個天台嗰個水缸冇水,我想問其實當時你 6 哋同事係會點樣去處理?係咪會有一--係會--會唔會用到街井嗰啲水係會駁落去個 7 大廈裏面嗰個消防系統,可唔可以解釋下係點樣做? 8 許健安先生:如果我哋一般遇到大廈裏面嗰個消防泵係失靈嘅話,我哋都會直接將我哋消防 9 喉駁入去我哋消防車--經街井駁落去消防車,再由消防車開喉入去大廈嗰個消防入 10 水口,然之後咁變咗我哋消防車嘅泵就係最重要加壓,將啲水--攞水加壓,嚟到畀 11 大廈裏面嗰個--裏面我哋去做內部滅火,喺個消防栓喉轆嗰個出水口去攞水嘅時 12 候,就變咗倚賴我哋消防車個泵去做個加壓咁樣樣。 13 孫靖乾資深大律師:明白,即係換言之即係話,如果嗰個大廈個天台個消防水缸冇水嘅時 14 候,嗰個做法就會係即係通過嗰個街井,再通過嗰個消防車或者嗰個--你哋個泵, 15 咁就再駁落去嗰個嘅消防栓或者消防喉轆個系統,就令到嗰個系統本身都會有水? 16 許健安先生:係,冇錯。 17 孫靖乾資深大律師:好,咁唔該晒你,thank you。 18 陸啟康法官:有冇覆問? 19 李澍桓大律師:沒有。 20 陸啟康法官:冇,咁我諗今朝我哋都比較沉重,雖然我哋其實今次嘅研訊,我哋對好多消防 21 局嘅--消防處嘅一啲嘅政策,或者我哋都會有啲檢討或者批評,但係我相信我哋廣 22 大市民對於呢一樣嘅批評或者呢個檢討,同當日前線呢個消防人員嘅努力係會分開 23 嘅。而喺今次我哋嗰個嘅聽證會入面,我哋都聽到好多居民對於消防員,特別係前 24 線消防員嘅努力係相當之贊許,亦都係好感謝。咁我都相信前線嘅消防員喺今次處 25 理呢個嘅火災亦都係一個前--即係都係未見過嘅一個,我哋相信好多嘅前線嘅--我 26 亦都喺度大膽講,無論我哋嘅檢討結果係點,我哋對--我喺度我亦都可以代表我哋 27 同埋一啲宏福苑嘅居民或者一啲嘅大眾市民,對於嗰日前線消防人員嘅努力係表示 28 感謝。亦都係喺度想同大家講--即係同你哋講一聲「辛苦晒」,我相信你哋當日已 29 經係喺咁嘅環境入面已經盡咗力。咁你作供完畢,辛苦晒。 30 許健安先生:多謝。 31

32 12 時01 分消防處大埔消防局高級消防隊長證人許健安先生作供完畢 33

34 12 時02 分消防處大埔消防局局長證人張樂恒先生開始作供 35

36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十一天

29 本謄本由Epiq 編製 李澍桓大律師:主席,跟住下一位作供嘅係張樂恒先生,佢係大埔消防局嘅局長,個職位係 1 助理消防區長。 2 張先生,請你先企起身,喺你面前有一個聲明詞嘅,咁麻煩你先企起身,然之 3 後讀出嗰個聲明詞。 4 張樂恒先生:本人張樂恒聲明,本人所作的證供,盡本人所知、所悉及所信,均屬真實。 5 李澍桓大律師:係,請坐。張Sir,我哋知道你係喺2010 年加入消防處,係咪? 6 張樂恒先生:正確。 7 李澍桓大律師:然之後喺2023 年嘅時候就晉升去到個職級就係助理區長? 8 張樂恒先生:正確。 9 李澍桓大律師:而個工作崗位就係大埔消防局嘅局長,係咪? 10 張樂恒先生:我調任大埔消防局作為局長係25 年2 月嘅事。 11 李澍桓大律師:係。咁而家係咪都仲喺大埔消防局定調咗去第二度? 12 張樂恒先生:正確,仍然係大埔消防局嘅局長。 13 李澍桓大律師:係。咁就住今次宏福苑大火嘅呢個事件,我知道你向我哋委員會就提供咗一 14 份嘅證人口供嘅,係咪? 15 張樂恒先生:正確。 16 李澍桓大律師:咁我相信你都係將你所見、所知、所信係真嘅嘢喺呢一個口供入面講出嚟 17 嘅,係咪? 18 張樂恒先生:正確。 19 李澍桓大律師:好快咁睇番一啲關於你參與嗰個救援工作嘅一啲紀錄,如果我哋睇番B10, 20 我哋5091 頁就係一個紀錄,就喺大概15:04:11 秒嗰個紀錄,我哋就應該見到 21 就係當時張先生你就係收到控制中心要求到場去做救援,係咪? 22 張樂恒先生:正確。 23 李澍桓大律師:如果我哋再睇下一頁5099,15:19:58 嘅嗰個(English Spoken)嗰 24 個紀錄,咁我哋就見到你喺當時15:19 就到達咗現場,並且取代咗你嘅同事許先 25 生就作為現場嘅指揮官? 26 張樂恒先生:正確。 27 李澍桓大律師:咁未講細節之前,我亦都想你睇埋5109,就係喺15:34 嘅時候,就似乎就 28 跟住就係應該有另一位同事就係你嘅上司,係咪應該係林先生就到場,並且將嗰個 29 火警升格做咗四級火? 30 張樂恒先生:正確。 31 李澍桓大律師:所以由三級火升到四級火嘅呢一個決定,就唔係張先生你做嘅? 32 張樂恒先生:我會咁講,我會--我有將一啲意見或者我觀察到嘅嘢交畀林先生,可能有助佢 33 去做呢個決定。 34 李澍桓大律師:明白。咁我先講番就係你去到達現場嘅一啲情況先,即係15:19 到達咗現 35 場。我哋知道一般嘅情況,就係話如果--係咪應該如果嗰個係消防處係收多過一個 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十一天

30 本謄本由Epiq 編製 或者收到多個求助嘅通報嘅時候,其實就應該以你嗰個職級就應該要到達現場,係 1 咪? 2 張樂恒先生:正確,即係消防控制中心會通知我哋會出動。 3 李澍桓大律師:係。我哋就知道應該第二個求助,應該係大概14:53 呢個時間就控制中心 4 或者999 嗰度就收到嘅。咁而我哋知道15:04 先至向你發出個指示叫你到場嘅, 5 你知唔知道點解當中即係都𧶄咗有幾分鐘叫你去現場? 6 張樂恒先生:呢個唔清楚。 7 李澍桓大律師:當其時你係喺--我相信係當值喺大埔消防局嘅,係咪? 8 張樂恒先生:當刻係。 9 李澍桓大律師:咁由於你都講,2025 年2 月嘅時候,你就調任咗去大埔消防局,我想問一 10 問你就係關於嗰個你去出車嗰陣時嗰個--去車嗰陣時嗰個情況。我哋頭先都有聽 11 過,其實就有啲事前嘅資訊係會畀到你啲前線嘅同事嘅,咁我睇下你係咪同樣都會 12 知道,當你被要求去現場嘅時候,你係咪知道其實喺就住大埔宏福苑呢個屋苑入 13 面,有一啲所謂制訂咗因為大維修而做嘅一啲應變方案? 14 張樂恒先生:呢個事前已經知道。 15 李澍桓大律師:事前已經知道。咁同時間,你知唔知道其實係消防處其實係收到有一個所謂 16 叫做(English Spoken ),就住某一啲消防嘅裝置係關閉咗,因為要做維修 17 㗎? 18 張樂恒先生:我印象中喺呢一個通話嘅時候,當我詢問有啲咩嘢車出咗,即係去咗車嘅時 19 候,控制中心有向我提及過。 20 李澍桓大律師:係。但係知唔知實際個內容,譬如係乜嘢嘅裝置出現咗問題,你有冇呢個信 21 息? 22 張樂恒先生:冇。 23 李澍桓大律師:即係你淨係知道有嘢壞咗,但係唔知壞乜? 24 張樂恒先生:正確。 25 李澍桓大律師:咁你去到15:19 去達咗現場嘅時候,其實以你而家記得,當時喺在地嘅同 26 時其實有幾多人數上面,講唔講到有幾多個? 27 張樂恒先生:喺我去車嘅時候,我知道有大概十二架左右,印象中係,咁當我到場嘅時候, 28 就再多啲。 29 李澍桓大律師:如果用人數嚟講個數目,即係消防員有幾多個? 30 張樂恒先生:大概一百個。 31 李澍桓大律師:大概一百個。喺15:34 升做所謂四級火之前,我哋知道就係你到咗現場, 32 然之後你都好似做咗一個匯報嘅,因為如果我哋睇番15:25 嘅時候,我哋見到 33 15:25,即係三十三分鐘之後接報,咁你做咗一個信息就匯報番畀控制中心,係 34 咪? 35 張樂恒先生:正確。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十一天

31 本謄本由Epiq 編製 李澍桓大律師:而家你睇番呢個控制中心嘅呢一個紀錄,你可唔可以講講大概你呢一個信息 1 上面係想交代啲乜嘢嘅情況? 2 張樂恒先生:可以。咁我喺15:25 嘅時候,咁我就--當然我之前有做過一啲嘢咁,咁去到 3 呢個時候,其實我係已經掌握到個資訊包括啲咩嘢,第一,就係有兩座大廈已經係 4 著咗火,咁就包括係宏昌同埋宏泰閣,咁第三座就係宏盛閣都有一啲嘅火光係已經 5 係見到㗎嘞。 6 李澍桓大律師:我諗其實如果根據你嘅紀錄,就係應該話其中兩座就你用嘅字眼就 7 “(English Spoken)”。 8 張樂恒先生:係,正確。 9 李澍桓大律師:即係我可唔可以理解就係已經燒得好嚴重? 10 張樂恒先生:係。 11 李澍桓大律師:嗄。另外三座,你所講宏盛、宏建同埋宏新,根據你當時嘅觀察,就你就冇 12 咗個(English Spoken ),但係都見到就係你話已經(English 13 Spoken),即係已經著咗火? 14 張樂恒先生:正確。 15 李澍桓大律師:即係當其時就成個宏福苑你嘅觀察到就係已經八座入面有五座係燒著咗? 16 張樂恒先生:正確。 17 李澍桓大律師:而我想你直接跳去最嬲屘嗰段,就係你話有好多竹枝、雜物嗰啲由天上面跌 18 落嚟,呢個係咪就係以你嘅觀察,係咪就係燒著啲棚架而引致嘅情況嚟? 19 張樂恒先生:棚架以及雜物。 20 李澍桓大律師:如果係咁樣嘅話,你去到現場,你做咗現場嘅指揮,亦都見到呢個情況匯報 21 咗,首先喺呢一刻,當然你當時知道係三級火㗎嘛,係咪? 22 張樂恒先生:正確。 23 李澍桓大律師:有冇喺15:25 嘅時候,考慮將個火警升級? 24 張樂恒先生:有,不過我仍然係進行緊嗰個評估,究竟係需唔需要。 25 李澍桓大律師:咁就住你到咗現場,做咗指揮官,在地嘅指揮官之後,你就住首先尤其是疏 26 散嘅呢個問題,你有冇考慮過? 27 張樂恒先生:有。 28 李澍桓大律師:你當時諗緊嘅係疏散、著咗火嗰五座大廈,定還是係整個屋苑? 29 張樂恒先生:我喺當刻見到就係嗰個蔓延速度其實非常之快,咁我見到嘅就係有市民就不斷 30 咁樣喺個大廈裏面逃走出嚟,咁其實我喺當刻其實未知道嗰個警報系統係同時失 31 靈。咁我就至到... 32 李澍桓大律師:停一停,你就住個警報系統,你幾時先知道其實個警報系統係失靈? 33 張樂恒先生:大概係15:35 至15:40 左右呢啲時間。 34 李澍桓大律師:喺你到達現場嘅時候,有冇物管公司,即係物業管理公司嘅人員同你接觸 35 過,或者你有冇要求過接觸佢哋? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十一天

32 本謄本由Epiq 編製 張樂恒先生:冇見過佢哋。 1 李澍桓大律師:冇見過佢哋,唔。係,請你繼續講,即係你去到較後期,你先知道個警報系 2 統失靈? 3 張樂恒先生:冇錯,係。 4 李澍桓大律師:當你知道個警報系統失靈之後,你有冇採取啲乜嘢嘅步驟或者指示去畀你嘅 5 前線同事? 6 張樂恒先生:當刻我見到嘅情況就係有好多市民逃走緊出嚟,第二,但係我面對嘅困難就係 7 嗰個火警嗰個蔓延速度實在太快,所以我當下我就即係感覺就係,市民係有一啲途 8 徑,譬如可能經過我哋啲警笛聲,即係車嘅警笛聲,又或者其他途徑得悉到其實火 9 警係發生咗,咁我盡我所能,嗰下我嘅決定就係我點都要用--搵我哋啲兄弟或者同 10 事去撳住個火,等佢個蔓延速度唔可以咁快,令到市民有更加多嘅時間去逃生。如 11 果我用咗一啲人力去做其他嘅嘢嘅話,可能會影響到我控制火勢嘅嗰個效率,所以 12 當刻我決定我係要全力去控制住個火勢,增加市民逃生嘅時間。 13 李澍桓大律師:我哋知道你喺15:27,去--你如果睇5104 頁,15:27:54 應該就係--係 14 咪應該當其時你係要求咗定係有其他嘅同事要求咗派一個叫做(English 15 Spoken)嘅呢一隊到場?你有冇呢個認知? 16 張樂恒先生:之後有。 17 李澍桓大律師:之後有? 18 張樂恒先生:係。 19 李澍桓大律師:即係唔係你要求? 20 張樂恒先生:唔係我要求。 21 李澍桓大律師:首先,你認唔認識呢個所謂叫(English Spoken)嘅呢一個隊伍或者部 22 門? 23 張樂恒先生:認識。 24 李澍桓大律師:可唔可以講一講畀我哋知,其實佢哋係做的乜嘢?同你哋一般前線救火有咩 25 嘢唔同? 26 張樂恒先生:其實(English Spoken)呢個煙火特遣隊,其實佢係一般駐守喺我哋消防 27 及救護學院嘅,咁佢係做一啲教--佢係一啲教官嚟嘅其實,實地咁去--即係我哋有 28 好多唔同設施,做一啲實火訓練,提供畀我哋唔同嘅屬員,所以佢哋喺嗰個滅火嘅 29 經驗上面係非常非常之充足,非常非常之豐富。佢哋-- 所以點解叫做一個 30 (English Spoken)嘅(English Spoken),即係我哋叫做呢個構築物滅 31 火嘅嗰個專家,室內滅火專家就係咁嘅意思。咁而呢一個以我所理解,一般三號火 32 警,咁佢哋都--或者四號火警,佢哋都會係到現場--會出動佢哋到現場幫手,唔需 33 要現場總指揮叫嘅。 34 李澍桓大律師:頭先我哋聽你嘅同事作供都有講過,宏昌係似乎其中一個最早,亦都係燒得 35 最嚴重嘅大廈,咁亦都係令到甚至乎想你嘅同事入去救人或者救火都冇辦法入到去 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十一天

33 本謄本由Epiq 編製 嘅,當你去到現場,做咗指揮官呢個工作嘅時候,以你記得,當時宏昌閣可以入到 1 去未? 2 張樂恒先生:唔得。 3 李澍桓大律師:咁你當其時有冇另外畀啲咩嘢指示去進行嘗試清除嗰啲堵塞咗兩個前後出入 4 口嗰個障礙物,有冇啲乜嘢指示你畀咗? 5 張樂恒先生:我指示就係叫現場嘅同事繼續盡力去移除喺嗰個阻塞咗嘅通道嗰度,移除嗰啲 6 雜物,殺出一條血路去令到我哋嘅救援人員可以進入去大廈裏面去疏散市民。 7 李澍桓大律師:係。講番頭先就係話,我哋知道宏福苑嗰個消防設備係有一啲所謂叫做 8 (English Spoken),咁我哋亦都上個禮拜有聽過證供,就其實大埔消防局係 9 咪應該有派過人去做一啲實地嘅觀察,然之後先至第一,制訂呢一個應變嘅方案, 10 第二就係就住嗰啲閂咗嘅消防裝置,你哋係做咗一個視察嘅,係咪? 11 張樂恒先生:正確。 12 李澍桓大律師:就住視察嗰部分,我想了解多少少,其實你哋收到呢啲(English 13 Spoken),我知道就應該第一至到二十四小時之內到場,係咪? 14 張樂恒先生:正確。 15 李澍桓大律師:喺宏福苑嘅個案入面,你自己本人有冇去過現場做呢啲視察? 16 張樂恒先生:我冇嘅。 17 李澍桓大律師:係,咁通常係你派你嘅部下去做嘅,係咪? 18 張樂恒先生:正確。 19 李澍桓大律師:呢個視察嘅目的其實係乜嘢? 20 張樂恒先生:呢個視察嘅目的最主要就係睇下現場有冇一啲特別嘅風險,譬如就係佢現場究 21 竟有冇一啲其他嘅用途,譬如係一啲幼稚園、老人院呢一啲咁比較--或者係一啲危 22 險品倉附近,令到嗰度嗰個危機係會提升嘅。第二就係佢哋啲水源是否充足,車可 23 唔可以入到去,係一個行動上面嘅部署。所以當我哋睇完之後,咁我哋就會做一個 24 嘅安排咁樣,去減低嗰個風險。 25 李澍桓大律師:簡單啲嚟講,即係做一個風險評估,就係因為某一啲裝置會失效,你哋就要 26 去評估下如果有火警發生嘅時候,要做一啲咩嘢額外嘅措施,係咪? 27 張樂恒先生:行動上面。 28 李澍桓大律師:你哋做呢啲視察嗰個範圍,即係要做啲乜嘢嘅範圍,我相信就唔係張先生你 29 自己決定話做乜,... 30 張樂恒先生:正確。 31 李澍桓大律師:...唔係你去決定,係咪? 32 張樂恒先生:正確。 33 李澍桓大律師:係咪消防處上面有一啲指引,即係譬如你哋當區嘅消防局就淨係做視察、風 34 險評估,係咪咁樣? 35 張樂恒先生:正確。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十一天

34 本謄本由Epiq 編製 李澍桓大律師:如果真真正正要去睇究竟嗰啲裝備係咪真係有問題,係咪需要關閉,又或者 1 要做一啲跟進,係咪由當區消防局去做? 2 張樂恒先生:我哋會同佢哋有一啲嘅聯絡,睇下佢哋啲嘢整好未。但係喺嗰個檢查,或者去 3 核實佢是否真係嗰個損壞情況係咁,就唔係由呢一個消防局去做。即係核實化係-- 4 我講緊嘅係會電話同佢核實「呢個係咪你真係咁樣(English Spoken)或者關 5 閉咗個系統」咁樣,咁佢純粹係核實下佢寫嘅嘢係咪真確咁樣。 6 李澍桓大律師:譬如以宏福苑為例,我哋知道佢就喺大概其中一個大廈最早就喺2025 年4 7 月7 號就已經第一次入紙畀消防處,就話要關閉咗嗰個喉轆同埋消防栓嗰個系統 8 嘅,咁我哋亦都知道跟住會出現嘅就係個水缸嗰度似乎都會受影響嘅,呢個你係咪 9 當時你係知悉? 10 張樂恒先生:知悉。 11 李澍桓大律師:喺直至到大火,即係中間呢八、九個月入面,大埔消防局有冇派過人去實地 12 同物管又好、承辦商又好,去了解究竟其實佢哋要做啲乜嘢嘅維修工程,有冇做 13 過? 14 張樂恒先生:冇好詳細咁去了解佢哋做啲乜嘢,因為我哋收到嘅係佢一個關閉通知書,係 15 嘞,(English Spoken),咁佢有呢個(English Spoken),佢嗰個原因 16 好多,背後個原因,總之我哋行動方面,我哋淨係知道佢--只係需要知道佢呢套系 17 統係不能有效運作,然之後我哋做一啲嘅替代方案,做一個風險評估,行動上嘅風 18 險評估咁樣。 19 李澍桓大律師:咁以你所知,即係真真正正要跟進,尤其是因為我哋都講緊,即係基本上係 20 最耐嘅時間,差唔多去到八、九個月嘅,要跟進嘅話,以你所知係邊一個部門去跟 21 進㗎? 22 張樂恒先生:其實消防局都有一定嘅跟進行動嘅,即係會去了解究竟佢嗰個維修嘅情況係-- 23 即係究竟佢可以開得番未咁樣,但係過咗六十日之後,即係我哋指引都寫咗,六十 24 日之後就會由我哋牌照審批總區嗰邊就去繼續跟進咁。 25 李澍桓大律師:當總區即係超過六十日,然之後總區所謂接咗呢個個案,由佢哋去跟進嘅時 26 候,大埔消防局,即係當局嘅消防局喺呢一個維修嘅事件上面,除咗話風險評估之 27 外,仲有冇其他嘅參與? 28 張樂恒先生:沒有。 29 李澍桓大律師:我哋頭先都有聽過你嘅同事講,其實喺救火或者救人嘅時候,喺宏福苑入面 30 都遇到好多唔同嘅困難嘅,咁首先就住面對有跌落嚟嘅一啲雜物、竹枝以至到進入 31 火場入面嘅嗰啲困難,首先喺你而家睇番轉頭,你覺得有冇一啲你作為其中都都係 32 一個前線嘅工作人員,有冇一啲地方你認為係可以做改善?譬如喺裝備上面又好, 33 所謂打火或者救火嘅策略又好。 34 張樂恒先生:我首先回應咗你裝備嗰樣嘢先,裝備嗰樣嘢,咁大家都好了解就係,其實香港 35 消防處喺裝備上面,咁亦都已經喺各項嘅裝備上面係喺世界係屬於一啲頂尖嘅層數 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十一天

35 本謄本由Epiq 編製 嘅嗰個級數㗎嘞。咁就至於喺嗰個行動方面,咁我都會講番就係,其實今次嘅事件 1 佢係一個史無前例嘅大火。嗰個史無前例,即係喺正常我哋處理一個火警,嗰個火 2 勢係冇可能垂直,即係縱向同埋橫向都好,個蔓延嘅速度係冇可能咁快嘅。只要-- 3 即係一個正常嘅火警,喺我哋嘅救援策略咁樣,係實際上係應該有一啲嘅--譬如一 4 啲耐火間隔、一啲被動嘅消防裝置係有效地可以令到個火勢係減慢佢哋嗰個蔓延速 5 度,可能係一個單位,可能蔓延多一個單位,或者上面一層一個單位。但係喺呢個 6 情況嚟講,佢嘅速度係極快咁樣縱向上升,以及橫向向其他樓宇係一次過蔓延開 7 去,所以變咗喺我哋一啲既定嘅嗰個行動嘅策略,譬如一啲搜救嘅策略上面,都唔 8 可以--已經超出咗我哋應付嘅範圍。所以喺事後檢討,咁當然有好多嘢可以檢討, 9 但係我哋亦都要睇下究竟點解即係會有一個咁大嘅火警發生,我諗大家--各位主席 10 你哋,我都好多謝你哋去幫手睇下呢件事。係,所以--係嘞,我嘅回應係咁。 11 李澍桓大律師:呢個就係裝備上面嘅你嘅一啲即係睇法? 12 張樂恒先生:或者指引,頭先所講指引。 13 李澍桓大律師:其中我想問你,即係因為我哋知道其中有一個工具車就當然就係嗰個雲梯 14 車,係咪? 15 張樂恒先生:正確。 16 李澍桓大律師:即係我哋都留意到有一啲--可能有啲批評,就話究竟係咪出動得唔夠多,或 17 者嗰個雲梯係咪去得唔夠高,點解唔喺出面甚至乎射水再猛烈啲,用投擲水彈呢啲 18 咁樣嘅方案,就住呢一方面,你可唔可以首先解釋,譬如以投擲水彈為例,以你當 19 時睇到嘅情況,呢個係咪一個會幫助到嘅救火、救援嘅方法? 20 張樂恒先生:絕對唔會。 21 李澍桓大律師:點解你有咁嘅睇法? 22 張樂恒先生:我哋首先要了解你投擲水彈嘅話,係會引致啲乜嘢,嘅危險嘅情況。根據我哋 23 過往嘅經驗,其實就係如果你係用直升機去到現場,咁佢會產生一個氣壓,而呢啲 24 氣壓會引致好多不確定嘅因素,包括火警嘅蔓延速度,因為佢嗰個氣流會影響到, 25 你唔知道個氣流會沖咗去邊度,會唔會甚至乎--而家睇番轉頭,如果用咗會唔會蔓 26 延到去宏志閣,呢啲我哋都答唔到。第二,就係佢嗰個功效,因為喺呢個個案裏 27 面,其實我哋遇到一個好大嘅困難,就係嗰個縱向同埋橫向嘅啱啱講過嗰個蔓延嘅 28 速度,而呢個蔓延嘅速度講緊係蔓延,唔係淨係外牆,甚至乎係單位裏面嘅嗰個情 29 況,單位裏面都係被燒著。如果我哋用呢啲投擲水彈嘅方式,其實唔可以直接咁樣 30 撲滅到單位裏面嘅一啲火警,唔可以話一定係可以撲滅到火警,反而引致到嗰個危 31 機可能會更加大。 32 李澍桓大律師:另外我就係想了解,即係頭先我講到所謂話雲梯或者鋼梯車呢樣嘢,其實佢 33 喺呢個救援工作入面,佢係擔當啲乜嘢嘅任務或者有啲咩嘢作用? 34 張樂恒先生:我哋叫做旋轉台鋼梯車,或者一般大家叫做雲梯。其實佢係擔任一個外圍嘅控 35 制火勢,以及一個拯救嘅行動。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十一天

36 本謄本由Epiq 編製 李澍桓大律師:我有聽過你嘅同事介紹,就係似乎即係呢個就係嘗試喺外面射水,就等啲火 1 勢唔好繼續蔓延,呢個係唔係即係最主要佢嘅工作? 2 張樂恒先生:正確。 3 李澍桓大律師:當然我哋知道每一個火警嘅級別,其中一個最大嘅影響就係級別越高所派出 4 嘅資源就會要越多,因為好明顯地個火勢係越高級就係越猛烈,係咪? 5 張樂恒先生:正確。 6 李澍桓大律師:如果你而家睇番,尤其是我都了解到將佢升格做四級火嗰個決定唔係你到場 7 做嘅,當然我哋嘗試只係去做一個檢討,去睇下有冇改善嘅空間。如果早啲將個三 8 級火升做四級火,而得使可以有更多嘅資源調派到現場,你覺得對於起碼控制個火 9 勢會唔會有啲幫助呢? 10 張樂恒先生:就住呢次嘅事件,喺個資源調派上面,其實喺我哋升格做三級火之前,其實即 11 係淨係一級火嘅時候,嗰個規模已經達至到接近三級火嘅規模,因為因應住我哋唔 12 同嘅因素,因為一啲救助個案以及譬如關閉咗嘅嗰個消防設備等等,都加派咗唔同 13 嘅車輛到現場,所以喺個車輛調派上面,其實個資源相對係好大量已經,喺一個火 14 嚟講,接近三級火嘅規模。其實去到--即係以我之後所知,就係大概係3 點20 分 15 嘅時候,其實因應住個情況,消防處處長已經指派咗--就係處長指揮室係一口氣派 16 咗十隊嘅搜索隊,即係講緊係二十架主要嘅消防車,接近另外一百人。 17 李澍桓大律師:但係我想針對住,即係因為點解我講個鋼梯或者雲梯,我咁關心,就係因為 18 似乎正如你所講,佢喺外面控制嗰個火勢蔓延,其實佢係有一定嘅作用嘅。但係我 19 哋似乎睇到喺初期嘅時候,即使去到三級火嘅時候,係唔係應該都只係得兩架旋轉 20 鋼梯車,一架37 米、一架55 米喺現場,呢個你有冇現場其實個情況? 21 張樂恒先生:呢個資料係正確嘅,但係現場指揮係有權去再要求額外嘅資源,所以稍後嘅時 22 間,喺15:39 嘅時間,我哋一口氣都調派咗另外三把嘅鋼梯車去到現場。 23 李澍桓大律師:呢個就當然係嘗試喺外圍控制嗰個火勢蔓延? 24 張樂恒先生:正確。 25 李澍桓大律師:主席。 26 陸啟康法官:我想問一問,即係其實我哋睇到以數量嚟講係多嘅,即係比一級火已經係所調 27 派嘅車係多咗好多。我哋開初蔓延速度未咁快嘅時候,我想問其實喺咁多車,但係 28 得一個迴旋處嘅位,其實好多車嚟都冇用嘅,係咪?其實即係如果你好多車嚟,你 29 未必係可以對於宏昌有作用,因為其實嗰個迴旋處個位係得咁大,呢個觀察你有冇 30 特別意見? 31 張樂恒先生:有,其實亦都解釋咗點解我哋需要係即係有行動去了解現場嗰個地勢,其實就 32 喺現場除咗喺內園個迴旋裏面呢個叫做緊急車輛通道,其實喺宏昌後面嗰度亦都一 33 條叫做元洲仔里嘅,而事實上有好多車輛都係泊喺後面嗰度,直接喺後面嗰度做咗 34 滅火救援嘅工作,而我哋亦都成功咁樣有幾個市民係宏昌嗰度後門走咗出嚟,而我 35 哋成功拯救到。所以喺嗰個路固然之消防車輛係多嘅,一方面我哋了解過個地勢, 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十一天

37 本謄本由Epiq 編製 唔同嘅車輛擺位,亦都擺咗喺適當嘅位置。第二,我哋亦都有住唔同嘅車輛,其實 1 佢哋都了解自己嘅角色,譬如當時有啲好似係重型泵車咁樣,咁佢哋因應自己嘅職 2 務,都知道自己係會搵到位泊喺邊,譬如佢泊咗喺廣宏街出面,佢有一個街井... 3 李澍桓大律師:喺呢度或者我哋協助你,我哋畀一張平面圖你睇一睇。 4 張樂恒先生:好。 5 李澍桓大律師:等我哋大家都可以跟得到你講嗰個。呢個應該就係大致上當時一啲主要救援 6 車輛嗰個擺放,係咪? 7 張樂恒先生:呢個係擺緊鋼梯車,係鋼梯嘅位置,其他主要車輛...(聽不清)出去。 8 李澍桓大律師:你頭先有講到即係唔同嘅位置,就係譬如我哋喺圖中間見到有架類似藍色車 9 輛嗰度,應該就係講緊嗰個迴旋處? 10 張樂恒先生:迴旋處,正確。 11 陸啟康法官:請問呢個圖係喺邊度搵得到? 12 李澍桓大律師:B5/4433 頁。如果我哋純粹就咁樣睇個即係圖,當然我冇計過實際個距 13 離,譬如有啲你右手邊嗰度似乎都相隔咗有幾遠嘅位置,對於呢啲雲梯車--鋼梯車 14 嘅操作其實有冇影響,尤其是水力方面? 15 張樂恒先生:我咁樣理解,佢哋擺喺嗰度都係一啲策略嘅位置,因為有好多唔同嘅因素,包 16 括佢有啲竹枝跌落嚟,佢攞水源嘅位置咁樣。咁佢哋擺得喺嗰度一定有嗰啲原因 17 嘅。 18 李澍桓大律師:但係應該就唔會影響到嗰個所謂效用嘅? 19 張樂恒先生:唔會。 20 陸啟康法官:呢個係咩嘢時段嘅擺位? 21 李澍桓大律師:應該係最後期五級火之後嘅嗰個分布位置。 22 陸啟康法官:係咪? 23 張樂恒先生:係。 24 歐陽伯權博士:我有一條問題,唔該張生。張生,你可唔可以幫一幫我哋講一講疏散嘅指引 25 嘅程序,身為指揮官,你點樣去定位幾時要疏散嘅呢? 26 張樂恒先生:就住疏散嚟講,我哋都有一啲既定嘅程序嘅。如果我哋收到求助個案嘅話,我 27 哋就會出動我哋嘅(English Spoken )喇,即係搜索隊伍。我哋有既定嘅指 28 引,就係有幾樣嘢要做。第一,就係我哋要派一隊去到嗰層樓嘅最頂位置嗰度,開 29 咗嗰個天台嗰道門,個目的係疏散咗--如果有濃煙係聚集咗喺嗰個樓梯嘅話,因為 30 樓梯係市民逃生嘅最主要途徑嚟嘅。我哋避免--如果真係有濃煙嘅話,就要開咗嗰 31 道門疏散啲濃煙,然之後就喺最頂嗰兩層就做一個快速搜救疏散嘅行動,去睇一睇 32 究竟有冇人喺最頂兩層嗰度暈低咗咁樣,同時間我哋亦都有唔同隊伍佢因為收到一 33 啲嘅求助個案,去到嗰啲求助個案單位嗰度協助啲市民。但係正如頭先咁講,面對 34 一個困難,就係呢啲通常都講緊係一個單位或者兩個單位著咗火,我哋先至可以有 35 效咁樣去進行呢一個咁樣嘅搜救策略。而一般嚟講,如果我哋係有一啲嘅耐火間隔 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十一天

38 本謄本由Epiq 編製 盛,有效咁樣去阻礙到個火勢蔓延嘅話,係唔會引致到一個好似宏福苑咁大嘅火 1 災。所以亦都因為呢個咁嘅大火程度,令我哋呢一個搜救嘅策略唔可以有效咁樣 2 去,已經超出我哋應付嘅範圍。 3 歐陽伯權博士:今次嗰個疏散嘅程序,你哋係咁多座大廈一齊做定係逐一座做嘅呢? 4 張樂恒先生:我哋一齊做嘅,係由我哋嘅搜索隊係統籌晒一次去做。 5 歐陽伯權博士:今次因為你哋派咗咁多消防員去,因為啲消防員我哋知道係已經超越咗你哋 6 平時五級火嘅人數多好多倍,咁會唔會因為呢個人數方面,可以疏散嘅程序會快好 7 多呢? 8 張樂恒先生:我哋喺初頭面對嘅時候,就係嗰個火警嘅蔓延速度太快,我哋根本係入唔到去 9 嗰個大廈裏面,所以我哋就用咗好多人手去撲滅個火警,撳住個火警,同埋移走一 10 啲嘅竹枝,令到佢哋可以嘗試進入嗰個大廈範圍裏面。 11 歐陽伯權博士:好,唔該你。 12 陳健波議員:我想問一個相關問題,即係好多市民見到當日嘅電視畫面都好焦急嘅,即係點 13 解唔會多啲水喉材射咁,呢個就真係大家感覺都係咁,而且係一個比較長嘅時間, 14 你可唔可以解答下市民嘅疑慮呢? 15 張樂恒先生:其實我哋係就住現場嗰個情況已經調派咗我哋認為係足夠,甚至多過足夠嘅水 16 柱--嘅滅火喉去做灌救。當然你話開多十條喉得唔得?咁會唔會有一個實質嘅效用 17 我就唔敢講,但係就住當時嘅情況,我哋認為現場呢個滅火喉嘅數量係足夠。 18 陳健波議員:我想再問多個問題,因為你係局長,亦都係嚟支援都係比較--或者唔係當區, 19 咁就頭先你講咗個好重要嘅點,就係話今次火災嘅擴散速度嗰啲係從來都冇見過 20 嘅,咁我想了解,可唔可以咁講呢?因為你哋嘅做法一般都係上樓,因為你講一向 21 救火災個方式就係喺樓入面發生,燒番出去,而家你喺出面燒入嚟,基本上都冇乜 22 見過咁大規模嘅方法,可唔可以講話無論係喺個救火策略、方法,你哋嗰個培訓其 23 實都唔係應付呢一種嘅火災,可唔可以話你哋係--即係當然事後你哋有好多嘢可以 24 做,但係我都想問你哋係唔係都係覺得根本係你哋嘅能力或者冇遇過會有有一啲咁 25 大規模嘅火災? 26 張樂恒先生:我會咁樣講,喺我哋嘅滅火策略或者喺指引上面,其實我哋預期嘅情況係我哋 27 嗰個耐火間隔,喺個設計耐火間隔上面係一定要有佢哋嘅耐火能力去控制個火勢蔓 28 延,以至到我哋到場嘅時候,處理個火警嘅時候唔會係好似今次災難式嘅咁大規 29 模。但係正正係今次嘅事件睇嚟嗰個耐火嘅能力似乎係做唔到佢應有嘅情況,又或 30 者有其他原因令到佢嗰個火勢蔓個延速度係咁快、咁大。 31 陳健波議員:我再想問多個問題,就係我哋聽到消防處就係話,如果火災儘量就唔好搭𨋢, 32 因為搭𨋢就會停,但係我亦都見到好多人靠搭𨋢成功逃生嘅,留喺屋企反而就係遇 33 害,或者喺樓梯都好多人係遇害,其實你哋有冇重新檢討話究竟消防畀市民嗰個意 34 見應該係點,即係你好難話你隨機應變,唔會㗎嘛,咁究竟留喺屋企,定又要搭𨋢 35 定係唔好搭𨋢,即係究竟可唔可以講下市叫應該點樣處理呢啲問題? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十一天

39 本謄本由Epiq 編製 張樂恒先生:其實我哋一般畀市民嘅建議都係咁樣,就係如果可以逃走嘅話,最緊要係留意 1 有冇濃煙,如果有濃煙嘅話,即係佢由單位離開,去到就近嘅樓梯去離開,如果見 2 到有濃煙嘅話,就要返番入屋企裏面,然之後就用濕毛巾去封番住啲罅隙,避免濃 3 煙係入去個單位裏面,然之後儘快打電話畀我哋去求救,即係同我哋講個位置喺邊 4 度。而事實上今次呢個事故嚟講,都有一定收量嘅市民係經過呢個方法,喺個火警 5 較後期嘅時間我哋能夠成功拯救佢哋。 6 陳健波議員:搭𨋢嗰個問題呢,究竟應該搭𨋢定係唔搭𨋢? 7 張樂恒先生:一般嚟講,我哋係唔建議佢哋搭𨋢嘅。 8 陳健波議員:另外上天台呢,因為而家你好多問題就係話大家都知道呢者雲梯最多即係射到 9 15 樓就以下嗰啲,而家香港咁多高樓大廈,上面啲人點樣算呢?佢係唔係應該走去 10 防火層定走上天台,定係點?因為我見到你喺天台又救到,有啲喺天台又救唔到, 11 咁市民應該點樣做呢? 12 張樂恒先生:我嘅建議都係總之見到有濃煙,就最緊要馬上返番入屋企裏面,然之後打電畀 13 我哋去做一個求救。 14 陳健波議員:即係經過呢件事,你都係覺得咁係比較好嘅。 15 陸啟康法官:我亦都問一問,不如就解釋下呢張相,呢張相可唔可以畀個(English 16 Spoken)我? 17 李澍桓大律師:呢個係B10 文件冊5556 頁。主席,你會見到其實喺頂嗰度,呢個就係喺三 18 級火嘅時候,嗰個雲梯車嘅情況。如果我哋剛才睇下一張5557,呢個升級咗做四 19 級火之後嗰個比較,所以喺三級火嘅時候... 20 陸啟康法官:B10,係咪? 21 李澍桓大律師:B10 文件冊,B10。 22 陸啟康法官:等我開咗先。B10。 23 李澍桓大律師:5556 同埋5557。如果再落去5558,嗰個就係升格做五級火之後初期嗰個 24 情況嚟嘅。 25 陸啟康法官:不如解釋,我哋見到四同五其實都好多條喉、好多部車嘅,不如講下三,好唔 26 好?即係三級火嗰陣時,其實喺嗰個時候係唔係足夠嘅呢?你可唔可以睇下呢張 27 圖? 28 張樂恒先生:喺今刻嘅時候,我認為係足夠嘅。 29 陸啟康法官:你可唔可以解釋下呢? 30 張樂恒先生:咁其實就當刻就宏昌閣其實佢就率先起火,亦都係最大火嗰度,可以見到喺元 31 洲仔里後面嗰度有兩條喉開咗出嚟,其實就係頭先許生一開始最先頭部署嗰兩條 32 喉,就係(English Spoken)嗰度兩條喉,冇錯。然之後就去到前面有火嘅時 33 候--唔好意思,就另外再部署三條喉,喺前面嗰度,其實我想講一講,呢啲喉其實 34 唔係戙直直咁樣企喺度,佢係周圍射嘅,即係會係就住佢現場個情況見到個火源, 35 就去撲滅個火警咁樣,所以其實嗰個廣闊嘅程度係會比較大少少,總之就係做一個 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十一天

40 本謄本由Epiq 編製 滅火嘅工作喺前面見到。至於之後,咁至於宏建閣同埋宏新閣嗰兩條喉其實就係我 1 叫佢哋開嘅,因為我見到後面嗰度著咗火,所以之後後期我就指揮另外一啲同事就 2 開另外兩條喉,所以當時著咗火--當然仲有紅色嗰個鋼梯車,咁佢亦都係出咗水去 3 撲滅緊一啲相對高層嘅火警嘅嗰陣時。 4 陸啟康法官:或者再問一問,其實係唔係即係冇一個命令係落話「我而家要全部疏散」,即 5 係冇一個咁嘅命令落嘅,係咪? 6 張樂恒先生:當刻冇嘅。 7 陸啟康法官:即係成個事件都冇話有一個命令「我而家要所有人即係疏散」,就冇嘅,係 8 咪? 9 張樂恒先生:喺我指揮嘅期間沒有。但我想補充一句,就係我哋見到--就係我確信當刻好多 10 市民其實已經過我哋嘅警笛聲係得悉火警事故,然之後我亦都親眼目睹佢哋係走落 11 嚟逃生咁樣,咁所以我確信佢哋其實已經係疏散緊或者疏散咗嘅。 12 李澍桓大律師:主席,可以先睇下其他涉事方有冇問題,我有一個議題會之後澄清嘅。 13 陸啟康法官:係,好,唔該。 14 何卓衡大律師:主席,你好。我有一條問題想問張先生。 15 張先生,我係代表物管公司置邦嘅。咁頭先李大律師問到你一個問題,就係話 16 嘅你到場嘅時候,有冇物管公司人員同你哋接觸或者你要求接觸佢哋,咁你嘅就答 17 案就話冇見過佢哋,我想同你釐清一樣嘢,你嘅答案係話你想搵管理公司搵唔到, 18 定係你冇特別搵佢哋,所以冇接觸佢哋呢? 19 張樂恒先生:我所講嘅意係--或者以我嚟講,我自身冇物管公司接觸過我,而我亦都冇去搵 20 嗰啲物管公司。 21 何卓衡大律師:明白。所以你嘅答案其實就係話唔係話你到場,你想搵物管公司搵唔到佢 22 哋,呢個說法係唔正確嘅? 23 張樂恒先生:唔係咁嘅意思。 24 何卓衡大律師:明白。咁呢次聽證會裏面,我哋聽到啲證據,就話物管公司工程部,特別係 25 有一位工程主任林文欣先生有協助警方去睇宏福苑嘅平面圖,同埋協助警方理解宏 26 福苑個屋苑設計。咁我個問題想問你,就係你點解冇特別諗過去搵物管公司嘅呢, 27 情況係唔係話喺你救火嘅角度而言,係冇特別需要去聯絡呢個物管公司嘅呢? 28 張樂恒先生:喺我當時嚟講,我覺得我係未有一個好迫切需要要聯絡物管公司,因為嗰下其 29 實都係個火警好嚴重,我需要集中我嘅精力去處理個火警,而當時我見到個火勢, 30 其實我已經得到咗我需要知道嘅資訊。 31 李澍桓大律師:Okay。 32 陸啟康法官:有冇其他涉事方?跟住孫大律師有冇?都冇。請你覆問。 33 李澍桓大律師:剛才你有提到有個所謂搜救隊(English Spoken ),即係你用應該係 34 SAR,係咪? 35 張樂恒先生:正確,我哋叫SAR。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十一天

41 本謄本由Epiq 編製 李澍桓大律師:呢個我諗佢個工作同做疏散就應該唔同嘅,因為呢個搜救隊以我嘅理解,佢 1 就應該係嘗試進入火場去唔同嘅單位,尤其是即係接到報告話要上去嘗試做拯救嘅 2 時候,佢哋嘅工作主要就係進入火場去個單位度或者報稱嘅地方度嘗試去將啲居民 3 拯救出嚟嘅,係咪? 4 張樂恒先生:我唔會將件事分得咁開,其實都係係救人,主要係救人。因為其實好似頭先我 5 所講,佢搜救隊佢由各個唔同嘅成員組成,咁佢有唔同嘅職務。頭先所講就係第一 6 樣嘢,就係同樣重要嘅兩樣嘢,冇分先後。其中一樣嘢就係要上去個天台嗰度打開 7 嗰個防煙門,同埋喺最頂樓嗰兩層嗰度做一個快速嘅搜索,睇下有冇人暈低,嗰啲 8 並唔係收到求助個案我哋先去做。咁亦都同時間如果我哋收到有求助個案嘅話,我 9 哋都會派人員上去協助,去拯救佢哋,所以我相信唔需要將嗰件事分得咁開。 10 李澍桓大律師:但係我意思即係佢唔係喺地下度嘗試話嗌咪叫人去疏散,維持秩序嗰啲,佢 11 搜救隊我相信唔係一個咁樣嘅角色嚟嘅? 12 張樂恒先生:唔係特登專責去做呢樣嘢,但係我... 13 李澍桓大律師:因為佢正如我頭先所講,就係佢主要係進入火場入面做救援? 14 張樂恒先生:但係我哋亦都可以透過--即係隨住嗰個事情嘅發展去調派嗰啲同事去做唔同嘅 15 工作,去幫助市民嘅。 16 李澍桓大律師:有一個議題我唔記得咗,頭先同你跟進嘅,就係你話其實有做過一啲建議畀 17 過你跟住嘅上司林浩俊先生,就住升格去四級火嗰個問題嘅,你可唔可以講到畀我 18 哋知你當其時喺邊個時間同埋做咗啲乜嘢嘅建議? 19 張樂恒先生:我大概係喺15:32 左右,就係喺個迴旋處左右嘅地方嗰度見到佢嘅,就亦都 20 同佢交代咗其實而家我見到我所知嘅情況係點,包括就係五棟樓已經著咗火,尤其 21 是宏建閣後面嗰個火勢當時都相當猛烈嘅,咁亦都現場資源係點樣,面對嘅困難係 22 點樣,亦都有收到一個(English Spoken )嘅訊息係去拯救緊我哋嘅同事咁 23 樣。 24 李澍桓大律師:所以我嘅講法就係你喺就住15:32 你見到--因為我哋知道林先生15:29 25 到場,跟住你就同佢做個匯報,係咪? 26 張樂恒先生:正確。 27 李澍桓大律師:你匯報嘅過程入面除咗個(English Spoken)嗰個情況,你係唔係就係 28 有向佢做一啲建議應該要升格做四級火,定純粹係就住個事實上面而家去到個火警 29 咩嘢情況就做一個事實嘅匯報? 30 張樂恒先生:事實上嘅匯報。 31 李澍桓大律師:咁有冇你做到一個建議話「阿Sir,我覺得應該要升格做四級火」? 32 張樂恒先生:呢個我唔敢肯定。 33 李澍桓大律師:就住嗰個(English Spoken)嘅情況,你剛剛提到--純粹亦都跟進埋, 34 就係應該就係你到場做咗現場指揮嘅時候,嗰個拯救嘅工作你就交咗畀許隊長,即 35 係剛才作供口嗰位同事繼續去做拯救嘅工作,係咪? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十一天

42 本謄本由Epiq 編製 張樂恒先生:正確。 1 李澍桓大律師:我相信你就冇直接去參與嗰個拯救何偉豪嗰陣時嗰個情況嘅,係咪? 2 張樂恒先生:我有要求佢有進度嘅,就儘快同我匯報。 3 李澍桓大律師:即係你就做監察、監督,但係就冇自己親自去畀指示要點樣去做或者採取啲 4 咩嘢行動? 5 張樂恒先生:正確。 6 李澍桓大律師:主席,我冇其他問題。 7 陸啟康法官:其他有冇跟進?因為佢都有啲新嘅問題,冇涉事方想跟進?冇。 8 其實我都回應番,其實關於用呢個直升機撲滅呢個大廈,其實喺呢個嘉利大廈 9 大火嗰陣時都有研究過,亦都係有對於用直升機喺救呢個大廈嘅大火係都有一啲保 10 留嘅,所以呢個即係我亦都睇過嗰個報告,都有講過呢一樣嘢。 11 另外,就我頭先同你同事講嘅嘢我唔再重複,我亦都係覺得你哋都即係盡咗 12 力,即係我哋相信前線同事亦都盡咗力,亦都係辛苦晒。咁你今日作供完畢,唔該 13 你。 14 張樂恒先生:多謝主席。 15

16 12 時51 分消防處大埔消防局局長證人張樂恒先生作供完畢 17

18 陸啟康法官:我哋仲有兩位,係咪? 19 李澍桓大律師:係。 20 陸啟康法官:而家想係... 21 李澍桓大律師:主席,兩位都其實唔長,不過我建議--我有信心其實今日下午一定可以完到 22 兩位證人,我估會唔會可能一個理想啲嘅,而家早少少午飯。 23 陸啟康法官:咁2 點十五分我哋再返嚟,好唔好?2 點15 分。 24

25 12 時52 分聆訊押後 26 14 時15 分聆訊恢復 27

28 14 時15 分消防處分區副指揮官(新界東)證人林浩俊先生開始作供 29

30 陸啟康法官:係,李大律師。 31 李澍桓大律師:係,主席,下一位證人係新界區副指揮官林浩俊先生。係,林先生,喺你面 32 前有一個聲明詞嘅,麻煩你先企起身讀出嗰個聲明。 33 林浩俊先生:本人林浩俊聲明,本人所作的證供,盡本人所知、所悉及所信,均屬真實。 34 李澍桓大律師:係,請坐,林生。就住宏福苑今次呢一個調查呢,我知道你係向委員會提供 35 咗一份嘅書面證供,係咪? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十一天

43 本謄本由Epiq 編製 林浩俊先生:係。 1 李澍桓大律師:我相信喺嗰個證供嘅內容都係你所相信同埋所知係屬實嘅嘢講出嚟㗎喇,係 2 咪呀? 3 林浩俊先生:係。 4 李澍桓大律師:唔。講你少少嘅背景,就係你喺2005 年加入消防處嘅? 5 林浩俊先生:係。 6 李澍桓大律師:然之後喺2023 年就晉升到而家呢一個位置,就係新界東嘅分區副指揮官, 7 係咪? 8 林浩俊先生:2023 年升到去呢個職級,2025 年11 月去調任新界東區分區指揮官。 9 李澍桓大律師:係,咁喺大火嘅時間你就係都係屬於新界東區分區嘅副指揮官,係咪? 10 林浩俊先生:係,正確。 11 李澍桓大律師:我哋從個記錄上面,我哋睇都係睇番B10/5105 頁,咁我哋就見到你應該接 12 報要求你到場之後,你就喺15:29 呢個時間到達咗宏福苑,係咪? 13 林浩俊先生:係。 14 李澍桓大律師:我哋亦都知道喺隨後嘅時間,你就係--你應該係當期時就係在場最高職級嘅 15 一個消防處人員,係咪? 16 林浩俊先生:係。 17 李澍桓大律師:所以你亦都喺隨後就接過咗現場指揮官(English Spoken)嘅呢一個工 18 作,係咪? 19 林浩俊先生:正確。 20 李澍桓大律師:從客觀上,我哋都睇到15:34 嘅時候,喺5109 頁我哋見到你就做咗一個 21 匯報喇,就住現場嘅情況,我哋一陣間會睇嗰個內容嘅。另外,你亦都做咗一個決 22 定,就係將當時嘅三級火升級做四級火,係咪? 23 林浩俊先生:係。 24 李澍桓大律師:我哋睇一睇你喺15:34,即係而家我哋見到你所作出嗰個匯報嘅嗰個信息入 25 面,其中你有報告番畀控制中心知,就應該當其時嗰幾座大廈嗰個火勢嘅一啲情 26 況,係咪? 27 林浩俊先生:係。 28 李澍桓大律師:然之後我見到有一句你就係話,英文呢度寫“(English Spoken)許健 29 安(English Spoken)”,你睇到呢個係你當其時嘅信息,係咪? 30 林浩俊先生:係。 31 李澍桓大律師:我想就住呢個--我哋當然知道呢個就係關於嘗試去拯救何偉豪先生嗰個事件 32 嘅,係咪? 33 林浩俊先生:正確。 34 李澍桓大律師:當期時你收到向你匯報嘅,就住嗰個救援嘅情況,可唔可以講多少少畀我哋 35 知,有啲咩嘢資訊係畀到你? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十一天

44 本謄本由Epiq 編製 林浩俊先生:好。當我去到現場大概係15:32 嘅時間,高級消防隊長許健安就向我匯報番 1 關於偉豪“Mayday”嘅呢一個消息,佢亦都簡單咁話咗畀我知佢做咗啲乜嘢去進 2 行一個--嘗試去做一個試拯救嘅工作。 3 李澍桓大律師:係,喺呢一個匯報入面,以你當時得到嘅信息,其實搵到何偉豪先生未㗎? 4 林浩俊先生:喺嗰個--喺當時嘅情景係未知道邊一位同事去發出呢一個“Mayday”信息, 5 亦都未知道佢確實嗰個位置嘅? 6 李澍桓大律師:即係連係邊一位同事你哋都未知嘅?個身份。 7 林浩俊先生:喺15:34 呢個時間未知道嘅。 8 李澍桓大律師:係,即係當時都淨係知道有其中一位同事曾經發出嗰個“Mayday”求救嘅 9 訊息,但唔就知呢個係邊個同事,係咪? 10 林浩俊先生:正確。 11 李澍桓大律師:另外,呢個信息之後有一句就係“(English Spoken)”,咁跟住有一 12 啲進一步嘅資料,我想問你嘅就係呢個“ICS”其實係乜嘢嚟㗎? 13 林浩俊先生:ICS 係一個簡稱嚟嘅,佢個全名就係“(English Spoken)”,其實就係 14 嗰個事故現場指揮系統嘅一個簡稱。 15 李澍桓大律師:即係其實呢個係由高至指揮官,即係現場嘅指揮官到前線救火嘅同事係咪都 16 靠呢個系統嚟做所謂聯絡或者畀指示、接收指示㗎? 17 林浩俊先生:會靠呢一個系統去大概咁去安排資源嘅分配,但係就唔係做一個溝通嘅模式 18 嘅。 19 李澍桓大律師:係,另外我哋有見到就係從你哋消防處提供嘅一啲文件,我哋知道有一樣嘢 20 叫做“(English Spoken)”,呢個就通常係咪--首先,呢一個咁樣嘅架構係 21 咪喺三級或者以上嘅火警就會出現? 22 林浩俊先生:正確。 23 李澍桓大律師:咁實際上其實呢一個係--呢個所謂(English Spoken)同我哋剛剛睇到 24 呢個ICS 又有冇啲咩嘢關係,係咪同一樣嘢? 25 林浩俊先生:同一樣嘢嚟嘅。 26 李澍桓大律師:係,你去到現場嘅時候,其實我相信係咪應該都已經有過二百個前線即係消 27 防員嘅同事到咗現場㗎嘞? 28 林浩俊先生:我當刻唔肯定有呢個數,但係後期我再睇番啲資料應該未去到呢一個數嘅,如 29 果我到場15:29 嘅時間。 30 李澍桓大律師:如果以你記得,知唔知你大概你要統籌嘅人數係幾多? 31 林浩俊先生:如果就住一單三級火警統籌嘅人數大概七八十人咁樣,但係我知道現場嗰個人 32 手安排已經係超過呢一個人數㗎嘞。 33 李澍桓大律師:唔。你就住喺現場作為最高嘅指揮,要了解情況喇,亦都要相應地可能給予 34 唔同同事唔同嘅指示喇,我想了解多少少,因為似乎我聽嚟聽去就係得一個你哋本 35 身用緊嘅通訊系統咁樣去通訊,喺呢一個咁樣溝通或者統籌上面,其實對於你嚟 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十一天

45 本謄本由Epiq 編製 講,當時有冇真係做成一啲困難去給予指示或者接收信息? 1 林浩俊先生:好,我解釋一下嗰個通信,其實我哋一個RT 我哋叫做,其實一通話器,入面 2 係可以去調校唔同嘅頻道。我哋火場有一條頻道,喺火場同我哋調派中心亦都有另 3 一條頻道,其實我哋係可以通過呢兩條頻道去分別同唔同嘅對象去溝通嘅,所以唔 4 存有一啲話好難去克服嘅一啲困難嘅。 5 李澍桓大律師:你到場嘅時應該未有嗰個所謂流動指揮車,係咪? 6 林浩俊先生:未到。 7 李澍桓大律師:唔。嗰個就應該係--我哋好似有陣時電影入面見到即係一架車,入面有一個 8 指揮嘅總部喺度咁樣囉,係咪呀? 9 林浩俊先生:正確。 10 李澍桓大律師:唔。就住剛才關於即係嘗試呢個“Mayday”message 嘅呢一個拯救嘅行 11 動,你係大概到幾時先知道原來出事嗰位同事係何偉豪㗎? 12 林浩俊先生:去到大概係15:55 呢個時間喇。 13 李澍桓大律師:係。 14 林浩俊先生:去到呢個時間,咁我根據番嗰個證人口供都提過,就係喺嗰個時間我發現到有 15 同事喺宏泰嘅正門出口就去嘗試拯救另一位同事,咁喺嗰個時間就知道佢係阿偉豪 16 嘞。 17 李澍桓大律師:都係一啲唔開心嘅情節喇,我相信你當時見到嘅就係有同事拯救緊一個就當 18 其時似乎係瞓咗喺啲燒著嘅竹棚上面,而似乎係不省人事嘅一個同事,係咪? 19 林浩俊先生:係。 20 李澍桓大律師:唔。係咪喺呢一個時間,其實你哋先至叫做真係知道原來呢位同事就係何偉 21 豪喇,同埋即係叫做喺嗰度搵到佢,先至知道佢嗰個即係位置? 22 林浩俊先生:我本人係。 23 李澍桓大律師:有冇向你匯報過話其實我哋已經知道呢一位同事喺邊一個大廈、邊一層樓, 24 但係我哋冇辦法上到去,你有冇收過一啲咁樣嘅信息或者匯報? 25 林浩俊先生:有嘅,呢啲message 初頭都係知道佢喺30 樓嘅。 26 李澍桓大律師:係,但係唔知邊座吖嘛? 27 林浩俊先生:我聽唔到邊座。 28 李澍桓大律師:係,因為我哋有聽過你另外一啲同事之前嚟作供,佢哋都講,其實佢哋唔知 29 道佢實際喺邊座大廈入面。所以我想純粹釐清楚,就係你應該都係喺15:55 呢個 30 時間呢,即係第一次發現阿偉豪嘅時候,你亦都係第一次知道佢原來就喺嗰度即係 31 受傷,係咪? 32 林浩俊先生:係。 33 李澍桓大律師:我想問多你少少關於升級做四級火嘅呢一個決定,因為我哋知道你到場嘅時 34 候,當然要同事向你匯報個情況,跟住喺大概十分鐘喥喇,係咪?應該就係你去做 35 呢一個咁樣嘅決定,升格做四級火,當時時你考慮啲乜嘢嘅原因或者有啲乜嘢因 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十一天

46 本謄本由Epiq 編製 素,令到你要決定將佢升級㗎? 1 林浩俊先生:我可以形容一下當時情況嘛? 2 李澍桓大律師:得,當然。 3 林浩俊先生:我大概係15:29 去到現場,個位置其實就係喺宏福苑入面嘅大埔浸信會公立 4 學校嗰度,眼前見到係一個史無前例地惡劣嘅環境嚟嘅。當中有五棟高層嘅住宅樓 5 宇係著咗火,當中嘅三棟係有火點喺個外牆棚架,有一啲已經係發展成一啲一笪笪 6 嘅火,已經唔係火點嘞。另外,有兩棟係比較嚴重嘅,係完全畀濃煙咁樣去包圍 7 嘅。咁我其時就衝向呢個宏昌、宏泰嗰個方向,去到大概迴旋處嗰個位置,就感受 8 到其實不斷地有好多嘅一啲雜物跌落嚟喇,有好多棚網飄落嚟喇,有好多竹枝插落 9 嚟喇。而呢一... 10 李澍桓大律師:喺呢度停一停你,就住棚網飄嗰個情況,你當時嘅觀察佢係淨係飄到落地下 11 定還是有冇留意到其實佢已經飄咗去第二個大廈,將啲火勢蔓延,你自己有冇見到 12 㗎? 13 林浩俊先生:冇去專登留意,但係如果以推斷嘅話就係起火最大嗰個樓宇,而我喺頭先學校 14 嘅位置見到宏建、宏新都已經著咗火,咁我推斷到佢係因為一啲物件令到呢個火勢 15 蔓延去一啲大廈度嘅。 16 李澍桓大律師:唔,我相信其中當日救援嘅一個挑戰,就係我哋知道嗰個火警警報系統其實 17 係失效嘅,或者大部分嘅大廈都係失效嘅。去到現場,你接手咗,就住嗰個疏散嘅 18 工作,首先第一,匯報畀你當其時嗰個情況,你可唔可以講一次,講畀我哋知當時 19 嗰個人群疏散嘅工作係點樣? 20 林浩俊先生:首先就係張樂恒喇,佢就去報告番畀我聽做咗啲乜嘢、發生咗啲乜嘢。佢都有 21 提及過其實喺唔同樓宇嘅地下都有一啲居民係疏散緊出嚟嘅,係,咁呢個就係我獲 22 得到嘅信息。 23 李澍桓大律師:你就住呢一方面嘅工作,有冇自己作為現場指揮官再畀任何進一步指示? 24 林浩俊先生:其實事實上當日,我頭先都講過,我去咗昌、泰嗰邊,就去管理嗰個火源嘅撲 25 滅,或者係處理偉豪嘅“Mayday”嘅一個拯救喇,我同我嘅同事亦都分工,佢就 26 去處理建、新、道、仁嗰邊嘅一啲疏散工作。而事實上消防同埋警察一直都有一個 27 合作嘅機制,喺一個災場嗰度,消防會去做一啲滅火救援工作,警察就會做一個疏 28 散或者(English Spoken)嗰個地方嘅工作,而喺當日亦都係有呢一個咁嘅安 29 排。 30 李澍桓大律師:就住剛才即係你話解釋點解將佢升做四級火喇,你就話見佢都有啲雜物跌落 31 嚟燒得好強烈呀咁,有冇其他嘅原因再令到你--尤其是喺人手上面,你當其時有冇 32 考慮過係咪其中升做四級火嘅一個原因? 33 林浩俊先生:我答咗先。火勢猛烈,佢蔓延得快喇,佢嗰個燒嘅範圍好大喇,另外,我亦都 34 收到好多求助個案個數字不斷咁上升,呢個係個原因,咁就係正正因為呢啲原因, 35 所以我考慮過我係需要多啲資源同埋需要一個高啲層階嘅事故現場指揮系統去處理 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十一天

47 本謄本由Epiq 編製 呢一個事故,所以我就將個火警級別升做四級。 1 李澍桓大律師:唔,資源我諗我就明喇,即係多啲可能唔同類型嘅救援車喇、多啲消防員嚟 2 幫手喇,你話要一個「更高層階嘅一個指揮系統」,嗰個係其實講緊啲乜嘢㗎? 3 林浩俊先生:即係ICS 呢個system 呢,其實就係話佢係點樣分配現場嘅資源去做一啲滅 4 火救援嘅工作。 5 李澍桓大律師:係。 6 林浩俊先生:如果將一個火警升級嘅話呢,咁嗰個現場總指揮嗰個職位就會比較高,現場嚟 7 到嘅資源多咗之後呢,就可以分開唔同sector 去管理嗰個現場嘅資源配置。 8 李澍桓大律師:唔,即係變咗你當其時--睇下我有冇理解錯,即係你自己覺得可能嗰個火勢 9 呀各樣,種種你剛才講嘅原因呢,可能你都認為自己未必係足夠喺現場做一個指 10 揮,係咪咁嘅意思呀? 11 林浩俊先生:同意。 12 李澍桓大律師:所以你希望有更高階嘅上司嚟到現場去坐鎮,去做指揮,係咪咁樣理解? 13 林浩俊先生:同意。 14 李澍桓大律師:唔。正如我剛才所講,其中救援一個或者疏散一個困難就係因為個火警警報 15 系統喇,以你所知,即係亦都做到都頗高嘅職位嘞,如果去到現場係好似宏福苑 16 咁,個火警警報系統係失靈嘅,咩原因都好。有冇以你所知喺制訂嘅防火、救火嘅 17 策略、指引上面去畀一啲所謂指示你哋應該要點樣處理,就住疏散嗰方面,譬如用 18 啲乜嘢替補嘅方法,有冇呢啲咁嘅指引㗎? 19 林浩俊先生:冇指引,但係相關嘅工--我想補充。 20 李澍桓大律師:係。 21 林浩俊先生:相關嘅工具呀,或者係一啲行動要注意嘅嘢,其實我哋喺不斷嘅操練嗰度我哋 22 都會理解到、知道嘅,但係如果要係一個好似order 咁嘅形式,所話按部就班咁 23 樣做呢,就我理解冇。 24 李澍桓大律師:係,唔好講即係order,譬如你剛才講到話過往都可能有啲訓練、有啲指示 25 或者指引畀咗你哋,咁就住好似宏福苑咁,譬如可能八座入面有六座嘅火警警報系 26 統都失靈,牽涉嘅每一座居民都有一定嘅人數嘅。咁從你所認識,從訓練又好,過 27 往嘅一啲訓示又好,你當時覺得可以做嘅係乜嘢嘅替代方案可以去彌補呢個火警警 28 報系統失靈嘅呢個情況呢? 29 林浩俊先生:當時去到現場喇,咁就都係根據番一貫我哋同警察嘅合作模式喇,咁就係佢哋 30 去--其實我哋都有喺現場,即係建、新、道、仁對出個空地嗰度將啲居民帶走嘅, 31 但係用乜嘢嘅協助呢?我頭先都提起就係話消防車上面嗰個捹燈、警車上面嘅一個 32 擴播系統喇咁樣,咁就會用番現有嘅資源去做一個疏散。 33 李澍桓大律師:唔,我想同你探討多少少,就係因為我其實同許隊長都有問過嘅呢,就係話 34 其實如果當其時個消防車唔係淨係著燈,而係加番個響聲落去,即係有嗰個警報, 35 會唔會有幫助?定還是你覺得會有反效果呢? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十一天

48 本謄本由Epiq 編製 林浩俊先生:其實當時我哋消防車由消防局去到現場,其實一路都係響住(English 1 Spoken)嘅,去到現場都唔係話即刻熄嘅咁樣。 2 李澍桓大律師:係。 3 林浩俊先生:其實都係有一個alarm 嘅作用嘅。 4 李澍桓大律師:係。 5 林浩俊先生:只不過去到現場我哋配合埋警察嗰個擴播系統,可能將嗰個消防車上面嘅 6 (English Spoken)去調低會比較適合啲。 7 李澍桓大律師:明白。 8 陸啟康法官:或者當日有冇--你啱啱去嗰陣時,在場嗰啲消防車有冇繼續響住嗰個警號㗎? 9 林浩俊先生:係,主席閣下,有部分有、有部分冇。係嘞,如果喺宏福--廣宏街嗰啲,可能 10 啱啱到現場佢都仲係著緊嘅,但係入到去宏福苑嗰個EVA,即係迴旋處,嗰啲就已 11 經--就熄咗嘅。 12 陸啟康法官:所以可唔可以咁講,即係不同時間會有唔同嘅嚟,咁所以不停都會有啲聲係響 13 住㗎? 14 林浩俊先生:係,同意。 15 李澍桓大律師:我哋從你之前嚟作供嘅兩位同事都有聽到,即係佢哋都有交代有面對唔同嘅 16 一啲挑戰,當日喺宏福苑,包括因為有一啲雜物嘅阻礙、跌落嚟嘅竹喇各樣嘢,你 17 亦都係曾經喺嗰度亦都做過現場指揮喇,我亦都仍然想問下你,喺你當日雖然話唔 18 係好長嘅指揮嘅時間,但係我相信你之後都有繼續留低幫手協助做救援嘅工作,係 19 咪? 20 林浩俊先生:係。 21 李澍桓大律師:除咗我頭先講嘅嗰啲情況,你有冇一啲其他你自己經歷到嘅一啲困難,你想 22 同我哋係分享,等我哋可以去考慮係咪需要做改善或者做檢討? 23 林浩俊先生:當時嘅環境已經係一個史無前例嘅困難囉,係嘞。 24 李澍桓大律師:其實統籌,我相信接近,即係就算你講八十人,其實雖然話你哋可能都一向 25 有訓練喇,但係我相信其實都唔係一個容易嘅事㗎,係咪呀? 26 林浩俊先生:就住當時嘅情況,唔係一件容易嘅事嚟囉,但係我哋每一個人員或者係車間, 27 都有一個對住自己工作嘅理解嘅,即係佢會「自動波」,好多嘢都會做得到嘅。 28 李澍桓大律師:就住你哋其中一樣嘢,我知道就係會不斷收到一啲求助嘅電話喇,即係可能 29 999 或者跟住接駁到去消防局嗰個控制中心。就住呢一啲咁樣嘅求助嘅個案呢,你 30 哋有冇當其時一個制訂嘅政策係應該要點樣處理,或者嗰個緩急先後係點樣做法? 31 林浩俊先生:我哋聽過呢啲求助人嘅電話喇,有責任盡力去將佢哋屋企人救番出嚟,而喺我 32 到場嘅時間,我收到嘅資訊就係全部嘅求助個案都係喺宏昌閣嘅。 33 李澍桓大律師:係。 34 林浩俊先生:所以當時就我指揮現場嘅消防人員就係儘快去打通宏昌閣正門畀著火嘅雜物封 35 閉咗嘅入口,係嘞,製造一個生口,畀宏昌閣嘅居民走出嚟,亦都畀我消防人員衝 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十一天

49 本謄本由Epiq 編製 入去。 1 李澍桓大律師:唔,咁但係我相信,因為我哋應該有聽到證供,亦都係應該要到去四點幾嘅 2 時候先至可以有第一批人可以入去到宏昌閣做救援,係咪呀? 3 林浩俊先生:時間嗰度,我唔清楚。 4 李澍桓大律師:唔緊要。主席,我冇其他嘅問題。 5 陸啟康法官:各個涉事方,咁政府孫大律師。 6 孫靖乾資深大律師:係,主席,我有一個問題想問番林先生。係,林先生,頭先你就--李大 7 律師問到你就係關於即係話如果現場係假如要疏散一啲嘅居民,即係有冇一個嘅指 8 引,咁你就話冇一個--即係叫做好似一個order 嘅形式嘅指引,但係你話亦都有 9 一啲嘅即係訓練或者譬如話你平時嘅經驗等等,可唔可以同我哋即係分享一下,就 10 係話即係關於譬如話嗰個訓練或者經驗上係會有啲乜嘢嘅情況,同埋即係如果譬如 11 話真係要做一個所謂嘅疏散或者(English Spoken),呢個係會點--有啲咩嘢 12 因素你會決定,同埋喺有啲咩嘢情況下會認為適合或者唔適合,係咪全部人定係部 13 分人,定係點呢? 14 林浩俊先生:好,其實呢個疏散因為牽涉到嗰個屋苑嘅居民呀咁樣,咁所以平時嘅訓練其實 15 係融合埋一啲(English Spoken),即係嗰個樓宇嘅居民一齊去做,咁先至做 16 到嘅。咁我哋會留意啲咩嘢呢?留意可能係佢樓梯嘅數目呀,或者樓梯嘅--通向唔 17 同地方嗰個鋪排,係嘞,咁就會按呢一啲唔同嘅情況去做一個疏散嘅演習。 18 孫靖乾資深大律師:咁我亦都想問一問你,就係頭先亦都有啲嘅同事有講過,就話其實譬如 19 如果有啲居民佢係即係被困喺宏福苑,當時係好大火,咁佢哋會唔會係要選擇去疏 20 散嘅時候,咁都要睇下情況,即係睇下有冇一啲嘅譬如會唔會有一個好濃嘅煙等 21 等,呢方面你可唔可以都同我哋分享下,即係譬如如果一個居民,佢應該或者唔應 22 該疏散,其實會考慮係啲咩嘢因素?或者你哋即係消防處嘅同事又會考慮啲咩嘢因 23 素? 24 林浩俊先生:如果就住居民自身嘅,就係睇番佢自己嗰個身體狀況可唔可以逃生先,呢個第 25 一個。第二就係講番嗰個現場情況,好似今朝同事所講,或者我哋一貫都認知,就 26 係如果開門見到係有濃煙嘅,其實係應該立刻閂番道門先,喺一般情況底下,即係 27 唔... 28 孫靖乾資深大律師:我想問如果你話見到有濃煙嘅時候,咁你哋都會建議可能係要即係閂番 29 門,即係呢個可唔可以再--你會唔會可以再解釋到多少少,即係補充下,咁其實裏 30 面嗰個考慮係啲咩嘢?即係譬如要疏散,佢去到嗰個樓梯口,咁佢見到即係濃煙密 31 佈,個情況好惡劣,咁其實要考慮嘅,或者叫佢哋返番去,最主要嗰個原因,我諗 32 好多人都可能會有呢個疑問,咁你哋會唔會可以再補充多少少去解釋下? 33 林浩俊先生:好。見到濃煙,因為居民都唔能夠去評估究竟嗰一啲煙係由下層定係上層產生 34 嘅,所以如果佢貿貿然去做一個逃走嘅話,咁可能會承受嗰個風險仲高,所以喺一 35 般情況底下,佢返番入屋,閂埋道門,用番啲濕毛巾去封咗嗰啲門隙,會係一個比 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十一天

50 本謄本由Epiq 編製 較合適嘅做法嚟嘅。 1 孫靖乾資深大律師:好,唔該晒林先生。 2 李澍桓大律師:主席,一個純粹係就住剛才孫大律師嗰個問題。 3 我相信剛才孫大律師問你嘅,講緊嘅就係咪應該我哋了解所謂叫做(English 4 Spoken)嘅嗰個情況。當然剛才問到就係話,即係如果個大廈已經著咗火,有濃 5 煙,咁你都講咗,即係其實好視乎個情況係咪應該繼續留喺個單位,定還是嘗試逃 6 生會係有作用。所以我想反過嚟問你,就係因為我哋知道尤其是喺火警嘅初期,有 7 啲大廈就算有火都未係好嚴重,咁我哋亦都知道有一座大廈其實係完全冇燒到,咁 8 我想問你喺嗰啲情況嘅時候,喺你嘅專業角度,你認為佢哋應該係所謂叫做 9 (English Spoken),即係留喺個原址等待救援,定還是應該離開嗰個大廈? 10 林浩俊先生:如果喺一般情況,都係應該留番喺個大廈。但係如果而家喺呢一個情況睇番, 11 可能道、仁嗰啲可以早少少去逃生。而事實上其實大部分嘅居民都做出咗一個逃生 12 嘅,即係好似建、新、道、仁嗰個。 13 李澍桓大律師:但係正正就係我嘅意思就話,如果譬如係真係--尤其是個火勢未波及到去嗰 14 個大廈,或者未去到好嚴重嘅時候,你嘅講法係咪即係都認為佢唔好離開個大廈, 15 好過離開個大廈? 16 陸啟康法官:其實可唔可以咁講?其實即係英國個大火就有個(English Spoken )嘅 17 (English Spoken),叫人留喺度,咁呢個都即係發覺未必一定係可行嘅。所 18 以我見消防處都唔係話一定要咁樣樣嘅,所以就要教人走嗰陣時就有逃生三寶要拎 19 住咁樣。其實即係好視乎個火勢,其實如果聽到個鐘,市民就應該一定就攞逃生三 20 寶離開,如果佢離開嗰陣時佢遇到危險,即係包括濃煙或者咩嘢,咁佢就應該返番 21 去自己屋企嗰度等救援,係咪其實應該係咁樣樣? 22 林浩俊先生:同意,主席。 23 陸啟康法官:即係其實都會好視乎個環境嘅,總之... 24 林浩俊先生:同意。 25 陸啟康法官:...聽到火警鐘就要即走,攞三寶,走,如果出面係好多濃煙就返番屋企? 26 林浩俊先生:係,同意。 27 李澍桓大律師:冇其他問題,主席。 28 陸啟康法官:另外,我想問另外一個問題,我唔知係咪應該問你。因為我哋去現場睇嗰陣 29 時,我哋都有同事同我哋解釋,就話其實救火嗰陣時候,如果知道有人喺入面嘅 30 話,你就要小心,因為你嗰個水,嗰個火場嗰個溫度好高嘅時候,你射啲水入去, 31 啲水就會變成蒸氣,就會危害入面啲人嘅危險,因為可能會蒸熟呢一個人添。咁我 32 睇過有一啲嘅即係消防嘅手冊都有講過呢一樣嘢,咁我想問喺今次呢件事入面,你 33 哋會唔會有--因為係呢一樣擔心因為嗰個樓宇入面有人,而係因為你有呢個顧慮, 34 令到你哋嗰啲救火嘅時候有啲嘅需要調整嘅地方? 35 林浩俊先生:同意,主席。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十一天

51 本謄本由Epiq 編製 陸啟康法官:其實今次你哋係咪真係--因為你知道好多人喺入面㗎嘛,咁你哋個灑水個策略 1 係點樣樣? 2 林浩俊先生:係,主席,我哋嗰個灑水或者滅火嗰個策略就係由低至頂,係,由底至頂,每 3 一層如果我哋能夠係去打通咗條通道嘅,而又可以係確認到佢唔會翻燒嘅,即係封 4 咗個後門--個退路嘅,咁我哋就會再向上推進,呢個就係我哋今次嘅滅火策略嚟 5 嘅。 6 陸啟康法官:所以係先救低層火? 7 林浩俊先生:係。 8 陸啟康法官:即係等你可以有一個即係所謂生口? 9 林浩俊先生:有一個生口畀同事繼續向上進攻,而係如果喺過程中搵到有被困嘅居民,我都 10 要確保到嗰個退路係能夠容許到佢去逃走。 11 陸啟康法官:因為呢個其實都係你哋嘅指引嚟㗎嘛,我見其實因為好似喺嗰個嘉利大火一 12 樣,都係你要上去,你唔可以上咗去跟住救人落唔番嚟,即係嗰條路封咗,其實就 13 冇用吖嘛。 14 林浩俊先生:係,同意,主席。 15 陸啟康法官:所以你哋就不停要將嗰個生口或者嗰個我哋叫係一個(English Spoken) 16 係要keep 住係冇火先至係得㗎嘛? 17 林浩俊先生:同意,主席。 18 陸啟康法官:但係我想問,今次其實如果你喺出面救火嘅時候,你射水,其實都可以咁樣 19 射,滅嗰個火嘅,係咪?即係唔會話因為驚有人喺入面,然後跟住你--會唔會有影 20 響,其實? 21 林浩俊先生:我嘗試... 22 陸啟康法官:即係我見你哋喺大廈出面你咪好多水喉射上去嘅,咁其實你哋都係係咁射嘅 23 啫,即係唔會話因為驚有人喺入面,而會有咩嘢調整咁樣樣? 24 林浩俊先生:主席,我嘗試下回答,我未必係專家。 25 李澍桓大律師:主席。 26 陸啟康法官:係。 27 李澍桓大律師:唔好意思,其實就住救火嘅策略,我哋知道會有另一位再高級啲嘅消防處嘅 28 證人會處理。 29 陸啟康法官:佢會處理? 30 李澍桓大律師:嗄。 31 陸啟康法官:所以我都問--咁不如我留番問佢,好唔好?唔該你。 32 林浩俊先生:好,唔該主席。 33 陸啟康法官:咁冇其他問題嘅話,我都係重複番頭先我同你同事講嘅說話,好多謝你今日上 34 嚟畀證供,唔該晒,林生。 35 林浩俊先生:好,唔該。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十一天

52 本謄本由Epiq 編製

1 14 時50 分消防處分區副指揮官(新界東)證人林浩俊先生作供完畢 2

3 14 時51 分時任消防處副消防總長(新界北)證人黃景文先生開始作供 4

5 李澍桓大律師:主席,今日最後一位證人係前副消防處總長黃景文先生。 6 係,黃先生,喺你面前有一個聲明嘅詞嘅,請你先企起身讀出嗰個聲明。 7 黃景文先生:好。本人黃景文聲明,本人所作嘅證供,盡本人所知、所悉及所信,均屬真 8 實。 9 李澍桓大律師:係,請坐,黃先生。黃先生,我知道你而家就應該係由今年1 月起就--而家 10 進行緊個退休前嘅休假,係咪? 11 黃景文先生:係,冇錯。 12 李澍桓大律師:但係其實我哋知道你喺尤其是宏福苑大火嗰個時間,你嗰個職位就應該係香 13 港嘅副消防總長,係咪? 14 黃景文先生:係,冇錯。 15 李澍桓大律師:咁我哋都知道你喺大火當日,其實係去到大概三點零鐘嘅時候,你係到咗現 16 場,亦都曾經做過現場嘅所謂(English Spoken),現場指揮嘅,係咪? 17 黃景文先生:正確。 18 李澍桓大律師:就住今次委員會嘅呢個調查,我哋亦都知道你係向我哋提供咗一份書面嘅證 19 供嘅,呢個你記得? 20 黃景文先生:記得。 21 李澍桓大律師:係,咁我相信證供嘅內容都係根據你所知、所信,係真實而講出嚟嘅,係 22 咪? 23 黃景文先生:係,正確。 24 李澍桓大律師:咁我想問番你少少關於當日嗰個你在場,包括指揮、包括救援嘅一啲事情, 25 我哋知道你就係15:11 呢個時間,就應該係消防嘅控制中心就畀指示你,要求你 26 到場,係咪? 27 黃景文先生:佢唔係指示我到場,其實我嗰陣時15:11 係三級火警。 28 李澍桓大律師:係。 29 黃景文先生:其實如果喺嗰個調派方面,我係不需要到場嘅。 30 李澍桓大律師:係。 31 黃景文先生:但係我個慣性就係,我就係--因為我嗰區,我負責嗰區,咁我就自己主動去話 32 畀控制中心知我去現場。咁其實呢個係慣性嘅,因為我逢嚫三級火警,我自己都會 33 儘快去到現場嘅,因為咁樣如果真係有事發生,即係升級,升四級火警,我可以 34 (English Spoken)住,因為四級火警先係我(English Spoken)。 35 李澍桓大律師:係,我相信就係你大概15:34 嘅時間到咗現場? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十一天

53 本謄本由Epiq 編製 黃景文先生:係,冇錯。 1 李澍桓大律師:跟住喺聽過一啲在場向你嘅匯報之後,你就係15:50 嘅呢個時間就接手做 2 咗現場嘅指揮,係咪? 3 黃景文先生:係,四級火警嘅指揮。 4 李澍桓大律師:咁我亦都相信當其時你就係在場最高職位嘅一個消防嘅... 5 黃景文先生:正確。 6 李澍桓大律師:...代表。我哋知道就跟住去到係咪應該16:18 嘅時候,跟住就由於再升 7 級,所以--定係因為其他原因,所以有第二啲更高... 8 黃景文先生:唔係再升級,仍然都係四級火警。 9 李澍桓大律師:係。 10 黃景文先生:咁只係因為四級火警--我要解釋番先,咁四級火警就係副消防總長同埋消防總 11 長佢是但一個去負責嘅。 12 李澍桓大律師:係。 13 黃景文先生:咁四級火警我係可以負責,但係就鄧Sir,鄧明華(譯音)先生就佢到咗場, 14 咁佢話佢(English Spoken)。 15 李澍桓大律師:係。 16 黃景文先生:即係佢做指揮官,咁就我將個呢個責任就佢(English Spoken )番,係 17 嘞,咁而佢當時就委派咗我,我就做呢個(English Spoken)。 18 李澍桓大律師:係。 19 黃景文先生:去負責整個救援嘅行動。 20 李澍桓大律師:我想問少少就係關於首先呢一個所謂(English Spoken),一陣間我會 21 再問你救援嘅工作。呢個救援係咪我哋所知嘅所謂(English Spoken)定係一 22 般即係所有嘅救援? 23 黃景文先生:(English Spoken) 24 李澍桓大律師:即係入火場入面? 25 黃景文先生:嗄,因為我哋嘅術語就係(English Spoken),SAR,或者我哋叫S-A- 26 R,SAR。 27 李澍桓大律師:所以你就係當時就係負責咗呢個SAR 嘅呢個行動? 28 黃景文先生:係,(English Spoken ),係嘞,咁我個(English Spoken)個名就 29 係(English Spoken)。 30 李澍桓大律師:咁就住呢個救援嘅行動,我相信你就係即係除咗鄧Sir 之外,你就係最高級 31 發司號令畀指示? 32 黃景文先生:係嘞,咁其實呢個就係一個(English Spoken ),我哋叫(English 33 Spoken),現場指揮系統。咁鄧Sir 就係最高級嘅,即係如果有IC,我哋叫IC 34 係最高級,咁下低佢會分第二個(English Spoken)就會分唔同嘅(English 35 Spoken ),咁我就負責(English Spoken )嘅,亦都有其他同事就負責 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十一天

54 本謄本由Epiq 編製 (English Spoken)。 1 李澍桓大律師:呢個係咪就係我哋都有聽過嘅所謂叫做三個層面,(English Spoken) 2 嗰個(English Spoken)? 3 黃景文先生:現場指揮系統,三個或者四個,可以,睇下你點樣數法,佢(English 4 Spoken)係唔同嘅。 5 李澍桓大律師:我哋講番鄧Sir 到之前先,因為我哋知道你喺到達咗現場,聽咗匯報之後, 6 似乎根據你嘅證人口供,你都講你亦都向控制中心就住現場嘅情況做咗一個報告 7 嘅,咁你觀察完,做咗一個報告,咁如果我哋不如直接睇第8 段你嗰個證人口供, 8 就應該係WS2/74/1005,咁呢個就係你嘅證人口供,如果第8 段,咁我哋見到就 9 話你15:39 嘅時候,你就觀察到已經有六座嘅大廈著咗火,咁就... 10 黃景文先生:係,冇錯。 11 李澍桓大律師:...亦都講出咗其實係邊六座大廈。 12 黃景文先生:係,正確。 13 李澍桓大律師:咁而你用嘅字眼都基本上尤其是宏昌、宏泰,你就用咗(English 14 Spoken),即係我相信個意思就係,第一,就已經係個火燒得好猛烈。 15 黃景文先生:燒得好猛烈。 16 李澍桓大律師:同埋我亦都見到你係多過外面即係嘅(English Spoken)都已經係起火 17 燒著咗嘞。 18 黃景文先生:正確。 19 李澍桓大律師:咁你亦都有喺呢個信息入面,亦都有同時間講到,就話個火亦都啱啱開始就 20 蔓延到去宏道嗰個大廈嘞,係咪? 21 黃景文先生:係,正確。 22 李澍桓大律師:當然我哋知道如果升格做五級火,我哋知道係由一位叫做陳Sir,就佢係之 23 後去到18:22 嘅時間先至將佢再升級,由四級變做五級火嘅? 24 黃景文先生:正確。 25 李澍桓大律師:咁首先我想當然問嘅第一樣嘢,因為你到場,到你將個指揮交畀鄧Sir 之 26 前,你考慮過啲乜嘢因素,然之後決定當其時唔將個火升做五級火? 27 黃景文先生:其實我就--我哋分唔同嘅火警,一級、二級,即係一級同二級係一齊嘅,不過 28 二級即係叫即係(English Spoken),我哋叫,跟住升級其實就三級,跟住就 29 四級、五級,咁其實喺個過程入面,我哋其實係有一個過渡。其實大家都話,即係 30 消防車嚟到嘅,咁就多啲好,但係其實係有個--即係好似個潮水咁樣,係要有個過 31 渡,唔可以一次過嚟晒,嚟晒有咩嘢唔好嘅地方,就係你根本就控制唔到,突然間 32 嚟咗一大班人或者一大班車,佢根本就唔知你想做咩嘢。所以係一個過渡,我哋要 33 慢慢點解一級一級咁樣升級,係。咁我--升級個時間,我自己其實係(English 34 Spoken)即係成個過程係半個鐘左右。 35 李澍桓大律師:係。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十一天

55 本謄本由Epiq 編製 黃景文先生:其實我都要自己去部署點樣做法,咁先會再考慮點樣升級,五級,我連四級我 1 都未預備好,我點樣升五級?因為我真係一定要有個過程,一個潮水,好似潮水咁 2 樣,唔可能--即係譬如呢間房咁多人入嚟,唔可以一次過入晒嚟。 3 李澍桓大律師:我諗先前嗰位同事作供嘅時候,我諗主席都有問過其中一個問題,即係好多 4 車就算真係同時間去到,可能個現場亦都未必可以即係擺到、容納到咁多架車同時 5 間喺嗰個現場,係咪? 6 黃景文先生:係,冇錯。 7 李澍桓大律師:喺當其時我相信你亦都有留意到,其中面對嘅一個困難,似乎就係嗰個火警 8 警報系統嘅問題,因為我諗我哋都有足夠嘅證供資料,就當其時嗰個警鐘其實起碼 9 有六座大廈入面係失靈嘅,喺對於你到現場接手做指揮,尤其是疏散嗰個情況上 10 面,有冇遇到啲咩嘢困難? 11 黃景文先生:嗰陣時我去到差唔多係15:35。 12 李澍桓大律師:唔。 13 黃景文先生:跟住其實我哋嘅同事,就因為我哋有位同事(English Spoken)嗰個陳浩 14 德,高級消防區長,咁佢係就係東區指揮官,咁大埔就係佢負責嘅,大埔區。咁佢 15 都同我講,即係話番畀我知,其實佢哋有同警察嗰邊做疏散。咁另外,其實我去到 16 嗰陣時間,其實即係我個印象就已經係成躉大廈燒,即係已經燒晒,有兩--有幾躉 17 已經由底燒上去,其實你問我,如果嗰陣時去疏散,如果由自行疏散會有困難嘅, 18 由個居民自己自行疏散。 19 其實我要分番開,其實大家疏散其實有兩個定義,即係我自己即係嘅睇法就 20 係,第一就係自行疏散,就係即係聽火警鐘,跟住就個居民自己去決定離唔離開火 21 場。因為即係我哋都有個守--即係有個指示,其實你就係你疏唔疏散,你走唔走, 22 帶逃生三寶,你出門口打開道門,睇下條走廊有冇煙,冇煙嘅就去最近嘅樓梯,打 23 開個防煙門,又睇下有冇煙,跟住落去,如果冇煙就落去,落去嗰個樓梯,如果見 24 到有煙,可能你要返番--選擇決定返番自己個單位,抑或去一個比較近啲嘅安全嘅 25 單位。咁呢個係真係佢要有好多自己嘅決定,咁我哋--當然,我哋從來都冇話建議 26 啲市民向天上--天棚走嘅,因為始終唔係離開個大廈。 27 李澍桓大律師:係。 28 黃景文先生:所以呢個自行疏散,居民--即係或者市民係要有好多嘅決定。咁呢個係一種疏 29 散嘅方法。另一種疏散嘅方法就係消防員真係帶佢離開,帶佢離開個現場,就我哋 30 親身。咁你話至於第一種方法,由居民自行自己離開嗰個佢個大廈,如果我睇頭幾 31 座大廈真係冇可能,佢會更加危險。 32 李澍桓大律師:係,個原因係因為咩嘢原因? 33 黃景文先生:因為佢自己點樣--即係因為我諗佢--其實佢出到門口,佢打--即係自己打開 34 嗰個走廊已經係漆黑一片嘅,有濃煙嘅,可能佢自己返番自己嘅單位--即係喺番自 35 己單位,我哋都教嘅,用嗰啲膠紙封番佢嗰啲罅,跟住就去一個--即係有一間房, 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十一天

56 本謄本由Epiq 編製 即係自己可能有睡房,咁去一間即係見到即係天嘅,即係有馬路嘅,咁等我哋去呼 1 救,可能毛巾呀,畀啲照明系統咁樣。 2 李澍桓大律師:即係簡單啲嚟講就係都要因應當時個情況? 3 黃景文先生:係,真係因應,有好多決定佢哋自己決定,但係如果你--即係如果早時間,即 4 係時間早嘅,咁自行疏散都仲可以,但係如果你話遲嘅,就真係--即係如果去到好 5 似呢個宏福苑頭嗰幾座大廈,即係咁快,尤其頭嗰兩座,宏泰、宏昌,基本上佢逃 6 生嘅時間係好短暫,...(聽不清) 7 李澍桓大律師:所以可唔可以咁講... 8 黃景文先生:...係需要消防員去幫助。 9 李澍桓大律師:所以可唔可以咁講,即係尤其是我哋知道個火就逐步唔同時間去發展,咁正 10 如你都所講,即係開頭可能有一兩座燒得比較激烈,有其餘幾座可能未有咁大火, 11 甚至乎可能由頭到尾都冇火嘅時候,而如果嗰個消防警報系統係運作正常嘅,咁居 12 民進行自行疏散嗰個危險性可能就相對地低啲? 13 黃景文先生:同意。 14 李澍桓大律師:咁亦都有機會即係佢哋能夠安全離開嗰個火場嘅,即係之後我哋知道變咗火 15 場,但係未燒到去嘅時候,即係喺今次呢個事件上面,似乎的而且確如果個火警警 16 報系統係運作正常嘅話,對於某啲大廈嘅居民其實係有一定嘅幫助嘅? 17 黃景文先生:火警系統一定有幫助,有佢嘅功效。 18 李澍桓大律師:我相信亦都點解即係消防處一路都對於整個消防裝置基本上都會緊張,要有 19 一個... 20 黃景文先生:因為呢個係真係佢有佢嘅功用--功效喺度。 21 李澍桓大律師:我想講跟住你頭先提及過,即係喺16:23 ,你接手做,跟住所謂叫做 22 (English Spoken)嘅嗰個救援嘅工作。 23 黃景文先生:係。 24 李澍桓大律師:純粹畀一啲數字你,因為呢個係我哋喺消防處提供嘅一啲紀錄上面睇到嘅, 25 咁我想嘗試講完呢啲資料畀你知之後,再睇下、了解下嗰個原因啱唔啱?就住喺 26 16:23,即係火燭仲係11 月26 號燒緊當日,我哋知道去到16:23 嘅時候,其實 27 有六十五個求助個案㗎嘞已經起碼,其中有三十八個就喺宏昌,二十三個就喺宏 28 泰,咁另外嗰啲座數就有四個嘅。咁呢個係第一個我哋得到嘅資料嚟嘅。咁第二個 29 資料我哋得到,就係去到應該係11 月27 號,咁我相信黃Sir 你就係喺大概9 點 30 35 分落更,係咪? 31 黃景文先生:係,冇錯。 32 李澍桓大律師:咁我哋知道去到嗰個時間左右,其實已經總共收到三百一十個求助嘅個案 33 嘅。咁第三個資料,我哋知道嘅就係其實喺當日,即係你接手做咗(English 34 Spoken)嗰個時間入面,去到大概如果講晚上10 點鐘,22:00 左右,我哋知道 35 喺呢大概五、六個鐘頭入面,就你哋嘅同事只能夠處理到十三個嘅求助個案。咁再 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十一天

57 本謄本由Epiq 編製 之後去到10 點鐘直到第二日淩晨大概4 點鐘喥,就再處理咗三十三個嘅求助個 1 案。咁去到最屘4 點鐘到你落更九點半嘅時候,就處理咗八十三個嘅求助個案。呢 2 個我唔係一個批評,但係我想了解下個原因,因為我想理解嘅就係咪因為去到11 3 月27,尤其是淩晨嘅時候,個火勢已經逐步受到控制,或者係減弱咗,所以嗰個求 4 助個案可以處理得更多,同埋成功--可能有好多個案都成功救到啲人出嚟? 5 黃景文先生:係,冇錯。咁其實我哋救援就有四個因素,即係點樣救援法。其實我喺證供嗰 6 度都有寫嘅。 7 李澍桓大律師:係。 8 黃景文先生:第一個就係嗰個滅火嘅進度,咁第二個就係救--我哋要安全--即係比較安全咁 9 去進入,咁亦都要預備陣間可唔可以安全帶個受困--即係被救人士離開現場。跟住 10 就係第三點,就係究竟嗰個現場安唔安全,嗰個結構。咁第四個,究竟佢嗰個現場- 11 -即係嗰個待救人士佢畀嘅資訊清唔清晰。咁初期我哋真係個火係--即係真係--尤 12 其是早嗰--即係頭嗰十個鐘、十零個鐘,去到淩晨都係大嘅,係好困難入去火場。 13 李澍桓大律師:所以... 14 黃景文先生:所以呢度係... 15 李澍桓大律師:你講先。 16 黃景文先生:所以呢個係令我哋喺救援方面遇到好大嘅挑戰。 17 李澍桓大律師:呢個會唔會就算你即係剛才都有講就係即係就算我再多啲人嚟,個現場都未 18 必容許同事可以入到去真係做呢啲救援工作? 19 黃景文先生:正確。 20 李澍桓大律師:當然我哋知道即係求助嘅電話係嚟自即係有唔同座數嘅居民。譬如以宏志為 21 例,我哋知道就快嘅個案可能就係大概唔使一個鐘頭,五十分鐘喥就處理到,但係 22 有啲就要等九個鐘,咁其他大廈有啲都有相類似嘅情況嘅。當日在場,尤其你作為 23 (English Spoken),當你收到唔同座數嘅個案要求求助,你有冇一啲乜嘢嘅 24 根據或者一啲考慮嘅因素去決定處理邊一座大廈邊一個求助個案先? 25 黃景文先生:首先,我講番宏志,頭先你舉個例子,其實就佢喺宏盛隔籬,旁邊,咁呢度就 26 係點解唔燒著,其實就係宏盛-- 即係我當時 set up 咗一個(English 27 Spoken )(前線指揮中心),其實一般嚟講就會喺架車度嘅,我哋叫MCU 28 (English Spoken),我就喺個露天嗰度,喺宏志對出嗰度,即係嗰度比較安 29 全啲同埋我可以直接即係睇到個現場。我睇到宏志有機會宏盛就焫著佢,咁宏盛即 30 係負責嘅同事就睇住,咁淋水喺宏盛咁樣。之後,我哋都有做一個即係(English 31 Spoken ),喺四點半,可能呢度資料冇寫到。所以宏志點解可以唯一一座唔燒 32 著,其實就係宏盛嘅同事去幫手。咁成個過程入面,其實我嘅下低,其實我就有 33 (English Spoken),喺ICS,頭先我所講嘅現場指揮系統。其實我下低我有 34 唔同嘅(English Spoken ),即係每一座。即係當然初初就冇咁多(English 35 Spoken),因為我哋就希望最好每一座有,即係最終我哋都做到。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十一天

58 本謄本由Epiq 編製 李澍桓大律師:佢哋工作係做咩嘢? 1 黃景文先生:佢哋(English Spoken)係或者以上嘅,當然後屘有啲冇咁大火,可能降 2 格到係ADO,即係助理消防區長去負責。 3 李澍桓大律師:係。 4 黃景文先生:佢哋負責咩嘢,就係即係其實好簡單,就係將個延長去分zone,即係每一座 5 就係一個人負責。譬如可能有一個同事係負責一座大廈宏志嘅,或者宏昌嘅,呢一 6 座大廈係(English Spoken ),另一個同事就負責(English Spoken ) 7 嘅,咁(English Spoken )嗰個就係我負責,即係under 我,(English 8 Spoken)咗畀我嘅。咁每一座大廈就有一個(English Spoken)。 9 李澍桓大律師:所以就係你跟喺話佢個... 10 黃景文先生:我就同佢當然會緊密聯繫。我哋收到一啲求助個案,我即係可能會直接畀佢 11 (English Spoken)或者經我畀佢,咁由佢去決定番究竟點樣上法,即係有唔 12 同嘅方法,其實喺救援方面。但係都要睇番嗰個(English Spoken)(滅火) 13 嘅進度究竟係點樣。 14 李澍桓大律師:我純粹想了解一下,就係譬如話宏志佢最冇受影響嘅嗰個情況。當其時你哋 15 嗰個策略會係佢哋既然冇受影響,儘早去做咗救援先,定係倒番轉,既然佢哋冇受 16 影響,就可能可以擺遲少少,救咗第二啲可能比較緊急啲嘅個案先,有冇一個咁樣 17 嘅考慮? 18 黃景文先生:如果你問我,其實講真,即係你係唔係想講優先?其實...(聽不清) 19 李澍桓大律師:係,先後次序有冇一個? 20 黃景文先生:即係宏志其實我哋唔係擺好多人,即係其他我梗係擺多啲人,咁宏志亦都唔係 21 咁--冇咩嘢影響嘅,我咪擺少啲人。 22 李澍桓大律師:係,明白。 23 陸啟康法官:我想問你哋到場咗幾耐或者幾點鐘係開始會有一個(English Spoken), 24 係每一座有一個(English Spoken)負責? 25 黃景文先生:我16:35 嗰陣時就有一個ADO 叫做周志豪(譯音),跟住慢慢開枝散葉逐個 26 逐個嚟,如果嚟到我--因為我手頭上冇資料,我應該有交到畀你,有冇?應該我諗 27 係五點零六點,係咪?因為我手頭上--真係唔好意思,手頭上我冇資料。但係如果 28 我印象記得都快嘅,五點幾六點--應該六點零。 29 李澍桓大律師:你等等,我哋睇番嗰個。 30 陸啟康法官:有冇? 31 黃景文先生:即係做到一座一個(English Spoken)。 32 李澍桓大律師:因為我相信ICS 嗰個情況我哋剛才都有聽過,就係當-- 你講緊係唔係 33 16:35?而家我哋睇到,你前面嗰... 34 黃景文先生:16:35 係我接個時間,我開始做(English Spoken)。 35 陸啟康法官:所以其實每一個(English Spoken)放一個building,即係慢慢一路 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十一天

59 本謄本由Epiq 編製 set up 咁樣樣? 1 黃景文先生:係,冇錯。 2 陸啟康法官:即係嗰陣時開始就已經有個決定,16:35 嗰陣時就決定每一座應該會有一個人 3 (English Spoken)? 4 黃景文先生:係,嗰度都有(English Spoken),16:35,可唔可以上少少?呢度,我 5 哋16:35 副處長都佢個決定。即係所謂(English Spoken )就係我哋嘅 6 (English Spoken)或者以上,即係SDO,即係(English Spoken)。 7 李澍桓大律師:即係你而家講緊16:35 就係(English Spoken)嗰個訊息? 8 黃景文先生:係。 9 李澍桓大律師:因為我知道ICS,剛才我哋知道一升格咗做四級火,剛才林先生都有講,因 10 為佢覺得應該要更高職位嘅人落嚟主持大局,所以佢就升格做四級火,然之後可以 11 啟動ICS 嘅呢個系統,係咪? 12 黃景文先生:其實ICS 一開始就己經有,只係唔同嘅(English Spoken)。 13 李澍桓大律師:唔同嘅層次。就住剛才我哋講到話求助嘅個案,有另一樣嘢嘢我想睇下你可 14 唔可以幫到我哋,就係因為當我哋團隊去分析嗰啲求助個案嘅時候,我哋發覺好似 15 有幾個渠道,當然最明顯第一個就係用嗰個所謂叫做打999 嘅情況。咁我哋見到其 16 中似乎有啲個案就係用傳真嘅,你有冇當時收到嘅訊息係--即係我純粹睇下你知唔 17 知道嗰個傳真嘅求助嚟自邊度,睇下你有冇? 18 黃景文先生:因為控制中心,我哋嘅指揮室話番畀我聽只係一個--即係佢唔會講用咩嘢管 19 道,佢只係講話呢個單位嗰啲即係求助嘅資料,呢個我哋淨係有啲咁嘅資料。 20 李澍桓大律師:另外,就係如果當其當其時喺... 21 黃景文先生:即係前線,我前線係有咁嘅資料。 22 李澍桓大律師:如果當其時亦都有一啲寫住係(English Spoken)畀嘅一啲指示,我相 23 信就應該係當其時嗰個(English Spoken)收到有啲要求助或者有啲訊息畀咗 24 佢,所以佢就發個指示,係咪? 25 黃景文先生:係,冇錯。 26 李澍桓大律師:最後一個環節,我問一問你關於嗰個搜救隊嘅指引嘅。如果你認為要睇番文 27 件就睇番,如果唔係嘅,睇下我嘅理解啱唔啱,即係一般嗰個搜救嘅程序,就係希 28 望分兩隊,一隊A1 隊就先去天台進行通風,跟住有個B1 隊就係去求救嘅單位進行 29 搜救,呢個簡單嚟講就係嗰個嘅救援一啲指引,係咪?可唔可以咁講? 30 黃景文先生:呢個指引其實係即係一般嘅火警。 31 李澍桓大律師:係。 32 黃景文先生:我哋第一階段,即係最初嘅階段,我哋就一定係去肇事單位嘅,即係頭先A1、 33 B1,個A1 就去個天台,其實應該係個次序一定去即係待救嘅單位,因為真係燒緊 34 個單位先係...(聽不清) 35 李澍桓大律師:應該分兩隊人? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十一天

60 本謄本由Epiq 編製 黃景文先生:跟住另一隊就會去天台,去天台個作用係咩嘢,就係開嗰個天台,開嗰道門, 1 因為啲煙有機沿住上去,同埋即係啲火有機會就上到去頂嘅,先上去頂,因為好似 2 個蘑菇型咁樣。 3 李澍桓大律師:係。 4 黃景文先生:所以點解第一階段就係兩隊,就係咁解。咁仲有之後仲有啲階段個喎。 5 李澍桓大律師:係。 6 黃景文先生:跟住滅火嘅下一層,跟住就係到最屘嘅,就係即係... 7 李澍桓大律師:每一層。 8 黃景文先生:係,每一層我哋都要搜救,但係呢個就係一般嘅火警。 9 李澍桓大律師:我都係想問問你,因為我哋知道喺宏福苑今次呢個大火上面,都叫做係史無 10 前例大規模嚴重嘅火災。 11 黃景文先生:同意。 12 李澍桓大律師:喺呢個救援工作上面,尤其是你作為(English Spoken),你就住呢個 13 一般畀前線原本呢一個嘅指引,有冇做過一啲變更或者畀過進一步嘅指示佢哋應該 14 點樣去處理? 15 黃景文先生:其實呢個指引,即係頭先所講嘅指引就係一般嘅火警。但係去到宏福苑,就係 16 譬如好似宏昌、宏泰,開始根本就入--大家都知差唔多成座樓都係燒緊嘅單位,係 17 唔可以用呢個方法。我哋只可以係跟住即係同滅火方面嘅同事係雙軌並行。即係我 18 哋成日都話雙軌並行點解呢?你都救唔到火,我哋嘅人都上唔到去,我點救人。 19 李澍桓大律師:即係所以我相信當其時好多地方係唔係都仍然嘗試喺外圍先控制咗,尤其是 20 我哋知道某啲大廈都仍然入唔到去嘅時候,希望打通咗嗰個進入火場嗰個通道。 21 黃景文先生:你嘅意思係外牆... 22 李澍桓大律師:即係喺大廈外面,係嘞,外牆。 23 黃景文先生:外牆其實-- 即係我哋有分內部救火(English Spoken )或者(English 24 Spoken),但係如果係高層樓宇,我哋最主要就係內部救火。 25 李澍桓大律師:係。 26 黃景文先生:外圍只係一種即係去做一個叫做(English Spoken ),即係水塔咁樣做 27 法。可以即係如果係射到嘅,咪可以(English Spoken)到。 28 李澍桓大律師:當你喺16:23 接咗呢個做救援(English Spoken)嗰個工作嘅時間,喺 29 16:23 呢個時間,以你所知,其實係唔係已經有救援人員可以入到譬如宏昌,定還 30 是都仍然未可行? 31 黃景文先生:其實我哋係儘量入到去,其實初頭個形勢已經係好困難。 32 李澍桓大律師:係。 33 黃景文先生:我哋入到去即係有水,咁我哋一齊一齊咁樣即係上去,係困難嘅。 34 李澍桓大律師:黃Sir,睇下我可唔可以聚焦問你,以你所記得宏昌真真正正可以有第一隊 35 救援隊入到去入面做救援工作嘅,你有冇資料或者你記唔記得大概係邊一個時間, 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十一天

61 本謄本由Epiq 編製 講唔講到? 1 黃景文先生:之後我自己有留(English Spoken )嘅,即係喺你而家睇緊呢個 2 (English Spoken),咁我如果睇到就係有嘅。 3 李澍桓大律師:如果睇番,你就係16:23 接過呢個救援嘅工作嘅。 4 黃景文先生:係。 5 李澍桓大律師:如果我哋好快睇。 6 黃景文先生:因為呢個(English Spoken)就好似即係譬如我救一個人,喺邊度救我就 7 要落番個(English Spoken ),做番個紀錄嘅。頭先16:23 ,16:26 已經 8 有。 9 李澍桓大律師:16:26 我哋見到都仍然係宏昌有求助嘅個案,就通知咗搜救隊。 10 黃景文先生:係。 11 李澍桓大律師:呢個我純粹可唔可以透過你,因為你係(English Spoken),我哋有個 12 畫面可以比較清晰少少知道究竟宏昌幾時第一時間可以進入到去火場入面。 13 黃景文先生:17:00,我第一個(English Spoken)係。 14 李澍桓大律師:即係而家我哋見到17:00 呢一個嘅就係由黃Sir 你,咁就係見到兩個男性 15 同一個女性就係喺現場... 16 黃景文先生:呢個要補充番嘅,17:00 之前,因為我打(English Spoken),係同事救 17 咗之後,佢再打有個(English Spoken)。 18 李澍桓大律師:但係我相信呢個(English Spoken )都唔會話相隔半個鐘、九個字先 19 至... 20 黃景文先生:即係我(English Spoken)咗一六幾咁,十零分鐘開始。 21 李澍桓大律師:即係可能十零分鐘,佢將你處理咗傷者,然之後就再向你做一個匯報,即係 22 講緊都可能十分鐘、十五分鐘... 23 黃景文先生:係,冇錯。 24 李澍桓大律師:...最遲都會向你做呢個匯報,係咪? 25 黃景文先生:係,冇錯。 26 李澍桓大律師:喺今次嘅火災入面,我哋都知道喺規模上面,喺個傷亡人數亦都係史無前例 27 嘅,亦都好(English Spoken)係就係有好多過咗身,包括你哋嘅同事。以你 28 咁多年喺消防處嘅經驗,你覺得而家睇番喺裝備上面又高,策略上面又好,如果係 29 做一個檢討希望將來做得更好嘅,策略上面又好,如果係做一個檢討,希望將來做 30 得更好嘅話,有冇你認為係可以同我哋分享要改善嘅地方? 31 黃景文先生:其實我成日都覺得我哋裝備喺世界消防隊入面,即係唔夠膽話第一,但係肯定 32 係前列嘅。喺裝備嗰方面,當然而家有啲新科技,有無人機、機器人,但係其實呢 33 個都係好初階,無人機更加,即係大家成日話見到有啲--上網睇到有啲無人機射水 34 咁樣,但係其實你睇番其實個高度唔係好高,好似一支水喉咁嘅啫。如果真係去救 35 火,你諗下我哋即係嗰啲喉即係好粗,去到廿幾三十樓,根本上你一架無人機你睇 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十一天

62 本謄本由Epiq 編製 下會唔會夠力,而家嘅無人機冇咁夠力去扯一條咁大嘅水喉,仲要咁大壓力。 1 李澍桓大律師:係。 2 黃景文先生:而家即係大家睇到呢個係示範,暫時都係。咁科技一定要跟進嘅,一定要與時 3 並進,因為每日都有新科技。另外,但係我就覺得即係防火方面係好重要,英文話 4 (English Spoken),一定係防火行先。 5 李澍桓大律師:主席,我冇其他嘅問題。 6 陸啟康法官:各個涉事方有冇問題?孫大律師。 7 孫靖乾資深大律師:黃Sir ,有少少問題想同你澄清番。頭先就講緊嗰個搜疏隊,即係 8 SAR,現場大概係幾時真係可以入到去宏昌閣即係進行搜救嘅工作?首先,就想你 9 睇一睇就係B10,咁係5151 頁嘅。咁5151 頁如果我哋去睇一睇喺呢度嗰個 10 16:56,即係第二個(English Spoken),呢度我哋就會見到就有一個訊息, 11 就係話係from 一個(English Spoken),就係你,然之後就係話即係有見到 12 有個(English Spoken),我想問呢個會唔會我哋如果就咁推測,其實應該係 13 即係當時嚟講有同事進入到宏昌閣? 14 黃景文先生:同意,因為頭先我都係,因為我--唔好意思,我都係look 到頭先最屘嗰度 15 17:00,其實原來仲有一段係仲早啲嘅,16:56,咁呢個一定係比頭先嗰個仲要 16 早。 17 孫靖乾資深大律師:仲有一個,可能睇一睇埋就係呢個5142,呢度就唔係講緊宏昌閣,但 18 係我哋見到有講緊個宏泰嘅,因為頭先除咗問宏昌嘅時候,其實宏泰我我哋知道應 19 該即係火勢即係最為嚴重嘅。但係呢度講緊嘅就係地下,就喺四點半嘅時候,就你 20 亦都有個訊息,就係話有一個男士就喺宏泰閣嘅地下嗰度係救出,你會唔會如果憑 21 呢度記得如果喺宏泰閣嚟講,係大概會係咩嘢時間即係消防員係入到去宏泰閣,定 22 係話即係可能你需要更多嘅訊息? 23 黃景文先生:宏泰閣呢度地下一定係可以更早嘅。 24 孫靖乾資深大律師:係。 25 黃景文先生:可以更早,即係我意思--即係大家可能理解唔同,即係上去嘅意思可以係地下 26 以上層數。 27 孫靖乾資深大律師:係。 28 黃景文先生:即係地下其實喺我心目中即係唔當係入咗去。 29 孫靖乾資深大律師:係,明白。 30 黃景文先生:但係嚴格嚟講嘅,即係真係入咗去呢度。 31 孫靖乾資深大律師:另外就想問一問,頭先你有講到李大律師問你嘅時候,就話你去滅火嘅 32 時候,就有講主要就話就係室內裏面滅火,亦都有講緊喺出面,你話喺出面最主要 33 有就係用一個叫做(English Spoken)(水塔)嘅情況,頭先主席問過消防處 34 同事--如果喺今次滅火遞降有冇考慮過水蒸氣嘅情況,你會唔會喺呢方面解釋下, 35 其實嗰個水尤其喺室外如果你要噴水嘅時候有冇乜嘢考慮,水蒸氣方面有冇乜危 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十一天

63 本謄本由Epiq 編製 險,幫我哋分析下。 1 黃景文先生:其實鋼梯個水壓係會比我哋即係消防員揸嗰個滅水喉係會大得多,個 2 (English Spoken)數係大好多,水力亦都大。其實喺外圍射佢係唔了解個情 3 況嘅,因為嗰個控制就喺車底嗰度,地下即係車度控制,佢就睇唔到上面,即係佢 4 雖然有即係攝錄,但係佢唔清楚上面嗰個情況嘅。即係唔係喺內部救火就會清晰得 5 多,因為真係喺現場睇到,入到去咁你射到。咁射水其實個水蒸氣即係就好似一個 6 煮熱咗嘅鐵,你突然間淋水,啲水蒸氣喺度擴散,一千七百倍膨脹嘅情況可以去 7 到,如果你係唔知嘅情況真係會灼傷個人。所以其實我哋消防處喺鋼梯嗰個指引都 8 係,如果你真係要外部射水嘅,要同入面同事要溝通得到,因為要撤離,因為你由 9 外圍射入去係有危險嘅,即係嗰個水蒸氣真係會灼傷個人,會嚴重燒傷,所以我哋 10 大家即係外圍同入面嘅消防員係要配合。 11 孫靖乾資深大律師:好,唔該晒,黃Sir,thank you。 12 陸啟康法官:仲有冇其他問? 13 李澍桓大律師:沒有覆問。 14 陸啟康法官:冇。我亦都係重複番頭先同一番說話,今日多謝你嚟畀證供。你係唔係有嘢想 15 講? 16 黃景文先生:喺呢度我都即係同番宏福苑嘅居民都要講番幾句。咁困難好快會過去,其實社 17 會嘅人士,即係大部分嘅,包括我自己同埋我屋企人,我哋都係支持宏福苑嘅居 18 民,我係祝福佢哋,希望佢哋就儘快走出呢個陰霾,明天會更好。多謝晒。 19

20 15 時32 分時任消防處副消防總長(新界北)證人黃景文先生作供完畢 21

22 陸啟康法官:好多謝你咁勵志嘅說話,多謝你黃生,多謝你嚟到畀口供。 23 杜淦堃資深大律師:主席,今日冇其他嘅證人,我哋星期三會繼續。 24 陸啟康法官:星期三朝頭早10 點鐘繼續我哋嘅聆訊。 25

26 15 時33 分聆訊押後 27 (聆訊將於2026 年4 月15 日10 時00 分繼續) 28

FD06251 | 2025_港澳台_香港宏福苑大火_Transcript-(Chinese)_20260415.pdf

分类:06_境外及港澳台调查报告 | 年份:2025 | 地域:香港 | 严重程度: | 场所: | 起火原因: | 来源格式:pdf

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十二天

本謄本由Epiq 編製

就大埔宏福苑火災成立的獨立委員會

聽證會

高等法院原訟法庭陸啟康法官 陳健波議員 歐陽伯權博士

日期:

第十二天 2026 年4 月15 日

杜淦堃資深大律師, 俞匡庭大律師, 李澍桓大律師及馮天榮大律師代表獨立 委員會

楊志聰大律師代表置邦興業有限公司

孫靖乾資深大律師, 卓元暢大律師, 陸栩然大律師及劉逸冲大律師代表政府

譚俊傑大律師代表宏福苑居民

律政司代表

呂世杰資深大律師及阮文躍大律師代表市區重建局

競爭事務委員會代表

合安管理有限公司代表

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十二天

1 本謄本由Epiq 編製

以下內容乃聆訊數碼錄音謄本 1

2 10 時00 分聆訊恢復 3

4 陸啟康法官:或者請你坐低,我有兩件事想喺未叫證人之前,我有兩件事係想同大家講一講 5 嘅。咁首先就係證人嘅供詞,其實我哋每一日都會有證人喇,其實佢哋都會有證人 6 供詞係畀咗我哋委員會或者係有證人供詞畀咗警方或者其他人士嘅。因為佢哋嗰啲 7 證供,喺呢啲供詞入面嘅證供都係我哋會考慮,但係我哋冇喺呢個委員會入面讀出 8 嚟嘅,但係我哋覺得大家都應該可以知道佢哋個全部嘅內容。咁所以呢一啲嘅證供 9 呢,即係佢哋畀委員會嘅證供,同埋即係佢畀嘅所有證供係會喺我哋委員會即係秘 10 書處個網站入面係可以睇得到嘅。所以我亦都知道呢,由今日開始,我哋會儘量喺 11 每一日嗰個證人畀口供嗰時候呢,佢畀嘅證人供詞嗰一日會上網喇,而喺以前呢, 12 畀咗證供嘅人嗰啲嘅書面嘅證供,我亦都理解就已經係上咗網㗎嘞。當然,因為其實 13 呢啲都要一啲時間去做,因為其實呢啲證供入面有好多敏感嘅資料或者個人嘅資料,如 14 果有咁嘅情況之下,其實我哋係會需要做一啲嘅工夫同埋去隱蔽呢啲資料呢,咁所以呢 15 啲要有一段時間嘅。所以第一樣嘢我想喺度同大家講嘅就係呢一樣嘢。 16 第二樣嘢,我今日想講嘅呢,就係我哋留意報章係有一啲報導,就係有啲聲音 17 就係因為係有啲人士係唔願意嚟到呢個委員會作供,係要求我哋委員會係向行政長 18 官建議,就將我哋呢個嘅獨立委員會轉成呢一個嘅法定調查委員會,好使我哋能夠 19 令到呢啲人係可以出席呢個嘅聽證會嘅。呢啲聲音係好清楚嘅,我哋都係完全聽到 20 晒,但係喺呢個問題上面,我哋會喺稍後嘅時間,我哋係會詳細向公眾交代,我哋 21 喺呢個問題嘅處理方法。我哋希望大家理解,其實我哋點樣進行調查呢?係牽涉一 22 個策略嘅問題,亦都係用咩方法調查都係有利同埋弊嘅。咁喺現階段咁早嘅時間我 23 哋去交代呢一啲嘅事情,喺策略上係一個唔恰當,亦都唔係一個好聰明嘅做法。 24 再者,其實最終個決定都係視乎我哋個調查係攞到啲咩資料同埋進度嘅,但係 25 大家可以放心,呢個調查係公開嘅,委員會亦都唔會因為我哋怕調查任何一個人 26 呢,而係咁樣樣呢,我哋係會停止我哋調查嘅方向。其實而家調查嘅個進展係非常 27 之理想,我亦都希望從我哋所睇到或者現階段所調查得嚟嘅資料呢,我哋希望大家 28 都相信呢,其實我哋個調查係全面嘅。所以喺呢一度呢,我希望大家畀少少耐心, 29 委員會必定係會喺稍後嘅時間係詳細解釋同埋向公眾交代我哋作出嘅任何決定,咁 30 呢個就係今日朝頭早我想講嘅兩件事情。咁我想現階段就請我哋繼續進行呢個聽 31 證,關於證人方面,杜大律師。 32

33 10 時04 分消防處副消防總長(行動支援及專業發展)證人黃思律先生開始作供 34

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十二天

2 本謄本由Epiq 編製

1 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,多謝主席。主席、兩位委員,我哋下一位證人係黃思律先生,佢係 2 消防處副消防總長。係,黃Sir 你好,你前面有一份聲明,麻煩你好似其他證人咁 3 企起身讀出嚟先。 4 黃思律先生:本人黃思律聲明,本人所作的證供,盡本人所知、所悉及所信,均屬真實。 5 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔該晒你。 6 陸啟康法官:請坐。 7 杜淦堃資深大律師:正如我頭先介紹你嘅時候提到,你現在係消防處副消防總長,你所負責 8 嘅範疇係行動支援同埋專業發展總區。 9 黃思律先生:係,正確。 10 杜淦堃資深大律師:而喺呢次我哋嘅聆訊裏面,你曾經提交過三份證人陳述書,我相信你都 11 有細心咁睇過,你可以確認裏面嘅內容? 12 黃思律先生:有睇過,確認。 13 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋知道,喺資料度睇到你係一位資深嘅消防處工作者,你喺2002 年 14 8 月已經加入咗消防處? 15 黃思律先生:係。 16 杜淦堃資深大律師:而你應該係喺2024 年12 月晉升到你而家嘅職級,係咪? 17 黃思律先生:晉升到呢個職級,然後去到2005 年嘅12 月就調任我而家呢個位置。 18 杜淦堃資深大律師:冇錯,資料亦都顯示,為咗節省時間,我咁樣向你介紹,睇下你同唔同 19 意喇。你哋行動支援同埋專業發展總區呢,你哋轄下有幾個唔同嘅課,同我哋有關 20 嘅就係譬如有行動支援課,我見到仲有招聘、訓練同埋考試課喇,有調派同埋通訊 21 課,同埋仲有工程同埋安全課嘅,係咪呀? 22 黃思律先生:其實仲有一個消防訓練學院,其實同調派--sorry,其實同訓練、招聘嗰個係 23 融合咗一齊。 24 杜淦堃資深大律師:融合咗一齊嘅? 25 黃思律先生:係。 26 杜淦堃資深大律師:喺你嘅證人陳述書裏面就有幾個話題,你都有詳細咁解釋嘅,包括消防 27 處嗰個搜救流程、999 電話嘅處理方法同埋資源調動等等嘅? 28 黃思律先生:係。 29 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁我都知道你喺火災當日你都係有到場參與支援嘅工作,你應該係喺11 30 月26 號晚上七點半喥去到。 31 黃思律先生:係。 32 杜淦堃資深大律師:而你係去到第二日嘅9 點35 分先離開。 33 黃思律先生:約莫係呢個時間,唔。 34 杜淦堃資深大律師:可唔可以講述一下你當日去到火場嗰個角色同你負責嘅範疇畀大家聽一 35 聽。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十二天

3 本謄本由Epiq 編製 黃思律先生:唔,其實我本身我個位置呢,一般嚟講係唔會去到火警現場,但係因為嗰一日 1 我哋接到多個call 喇,同埋佢當中嗰個--我哋發現溝通上面有需要加強。咁所以 2 處長特意指派我,因為我本身除咗我係而家領導住消防通訊中心,其實我以前亦都 3 喺較低嘅職級嘅時候呢,喺消防通訊中心裏面親自去工作過,所以處長就責成咗我 4 呢,就落去現場,去加強番火場上面喇,同埋我哋包括咗消防通訊中心,同埋嗰陣 5 時其實我哋開做一個特別嘅一個我哋叫(English Spoken)(支援中心)嚟到 6 加強番當中嘅一個通訊。 7 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,所以我哋陣間想同你探討嘅題目裏面有關於消防通訊中心呢一個範 8 疇,相信你係最適合嘅同事去處理。我想首先同你講一講就係整個消防處處理求助 9 個案嗰個流程同埋做法。開始之前,我想清楚同你表達一點,我哋明白其實11 月 10 26 號遇到大家都知道唔係一個普通嘅火警,打999 嘅數量我相信亦都係好少見到 11 會有咁嘅情況,我哋唔敢講係咪史無前例,但係相信係困難嘅嗰一日,我諗呢個大 12 家都會同意。我哋其實想同你探討嘅就係,我哋經過呢一件事,其實你哋見到有啲 13 咩地方可以優化或者吸取到教訓?喺呢個過程裏面,當然我哋可能會同你去睇番一 14 啲求助嘅個案,我相信咁講大家都會同意,唔係每一位同事可能處理每一個call 15 都係做到最完美,但係呢個我亦都明白喺嗰個情況之下可能係冇可能,所以希望你 16 理解有時我哋去播呢啲嘅個案,我哋唔係對嗰位同事一個直接嘅批評。可能佢亦都 17 有佢嘅理由點解會咁樣去處理,你都聽到嘞,其實有啲個案,有啲生還者其實係多 18 謝當日打電話同佢哋--我哋叫--你之後口供有解釋call back 嗰啲同事。 19 黃思律先生:係。 20 杜淦堃資深大律師:因為譬如好似冼善卿女士,佢話嗰位同事亦都令到佢個心定咗好多。儘 21 管點都好喇,我諗我哋用呢一次嚟去睇下我哋攞到啲咩教訓。我哋喺文件睇到消防 22 處當日其實係收到373 個求助個案,而當中其實大部分應該都係由999 報案中心 23 轉發畀消防處,咁講正確嗎? 24 黃思律先生:正確。 25 杜淦堃資深大律師:所以999 熱線個處理辦法係我想同你去探討嘅,首先我見到你嘅證人供 26 詞裏面,喺第二份嘅第4.5.1 段你咁講嘅,基本上你就話,如果而家睇到螢幕上 27 高,係,我哋知道當日就有大量嘅求助電話喇,而當時亦都係你哋成立咗呢個 28 (English Spoken)喇,你就話“(English Spoken)”,即係一分鐘之 29 內其實可以直接收到有關嘅求助個案。而最屘喺呢一段你咁講嘅“ (English 30 Spoken)”,即係人力嗰度,你哋就覺得其實當日係足夠嘅? 31 黃思律先生:係。 32 杜淦堃資深大律師:而你睇4.7.1 ,你都咁講嘅,其中有一句你就話“ (English 33 Spoken)”,我想你解一解釋,因為我哋在座嘅人士可能冇睇過你份證人供詞, 34 FSCC 係乜嘢嚟? 35 黃思律先生:「消防通訊中心」嘅簡稱。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十二天

4 本謄本由Epiq 編製 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔,而你呢度亦都講呢,其實你哋考慮過你哋嘅政策同埋程序,你哋都 1 覺得在當日嚟講係穩妥,可唔可以咁講? 2 黃思律先生:係。 3 杜淦堃資深大律師:你跟住介紹,你第二份證人供詞4.2.1 段,我哋呢度睇到喺現行嘅機 4 制之下,似乎我哋香港嘅做法就係所有999 電話都係先交由警方嘅指揮及控制中心 5 接聽,所以警方嗰面聽咗先,佢哋確認係關於火警,佢哋就會轉駁畀你哋消防通訊 6 中心,即係FSCC 嘅? 7 黃思律先生:係。 8 杜淦堃資深大律師:跟住做法我哋喺啲電話錄音度都聽到,其實係建立一個三方嘅通話,即 9 係求助者、警方同埋消防,其實都同時在線去處理佢哋嘅問題。 10 黃思律先生:冇錯。 11 杜淦堃資深大律師:似乎做法係咁。而你亦都指出,呢個三方通話期間,其實求助者係要直 12 接向你哋消防嗰邊提供資料,警方嘅角色似乎係協助,唔係佢哋負責交啲資料畀你 13 哋? 14 黃思律先生:唔係。 15 杜淦堃資深大律師:所以我哋見到4.2.3 譬如呢度就解釋咗呢個流程。我想同你探討嘅就 16 係你哋嗰個諗法同埋背後嗰個原因,點解用呢一個流程去處理相關嘅求助電話,因 17 為我哋見到火災當日嘅情況就係將電話轉駁畀FSCC,其實好多時嗰個求助者佢係 18 要重新口述過已經講咗畀警方嘅資料,而點解我想同你探討嘅就係,呢一個做法唔 19 係全世界每一個地方都咁做,當然,有唔同嘅方法去處理呢啲求助個案,想同你探 20 討嘅係背後嘅考慮。但係喺呢個時候,不如我哋播一播其中一個例子,呢個係A2- 21 9 嘅。 22 杜淦堃資深大律師:小故障。似乎係硬體問題。 23 陸啟康法官:咁係咪提醒呢啲--可能聽呢啲都可能會引起某啲人士可能不安嘅,亦都喺度畀 24 番一個--即係提醒各位,即係如果有需要嘅時候,我哋係有啲適當嘅情緒支援嘅, 25 所以大家如果真係覺得有困擾嘅時候請出聲,即係要求幫助。 26 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,多謝主席。 27 (播放錄音) 28 [女聲:999。 29 男聲一:呢度係大埔廣福邨附近,有個地盤做緊大廈維修,跟住火燭呀個棚架。 30 女聲:先生,我即刻駁條線去消防處,貴姓呀先生? 31 男聲一:嗄,喂,呢個--呢個咩嘢屋苑呀?有冇人知呀? 32 女聲:貴姓呀?先生。 33 男聲一:宏福苑呀,...(聽不清) 34 (電話接駁鈴聲) 35 女聲:你係途經見到定係... 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十二天

5 本謄本由Epiq 編製 男聲一:拍片呀,拍片呀,而家--喂,拍片,拍片,而家火燭緊呀。 1 女聲:喂,先生呀,你係咪喺樓下望上去咋?係見到火警嘅。 2 男聲二:...(聽不清) 3 男聲一:係呀,我揸車見到過望上去,係呀,係呀,係。 4 女聲:哦,揸車見到,有火警喎。 5 男聲二:聽唔到,聽唔到。 6 女聲:火警喺邊度發生? 7 男聲一:大埔--大埔和--大埔宏福苑,大廈外牆維修,棚架火燭。 8 男聲二:嗄,得,明白,宏福苑,啱唔啱?有冇話宏咩嘢閣呀? 9 男聲一:...(聽不清)誒聽唔到。 10 男聲二:宏咩嘢閣? 11 男聲一:唔知呀,我踩單車經過㗎咋。喂,宏咩嘢閣呀?喂,宏咩嘢閣呀?喂,有冇人知道 12 呢個咩嘢閣呀,喂? 13 男聲三:宏福--宏昌閣。 14 男聲一:宏昌閣呀。 15 男聲二:宏昌閣,得...(聽不清) 16 男聲一:喂,呢個咩嘢閣呀?喂,有冇人知道咩嘢地址呀?喂。 17 男聲二:聯絡電話。 18 男聲一:好大火呀,喂,快啲派人過嚟先喇。 19 男聲二:得嘞,我知道呀。啊,救護車出發咗宏昌閣吖嘛。你去到迴旋處...(聽不清) 20 男聲一:係咪宏昌閣呀?宏昌閣對出,快啲呀,好大火呀,喂。 21 男聲二:得呀,有呀,嚟緊。 22 女聲:你留個電話畀我哋吖。(嗶聲) 23 男聲一:喂,拍片,拍片,拍片。 24 女聲:喂,先生,唔使講拍片住,呢個佢係中層定低層定點樣呀呢個宏昌閣? 25 男聲一:低層,低層,低層,低層。 26 女聲:嚟緊㗎嘞,請... 27 男聲一:電梯槽,嗄。 28 女聲:好,知道,好,嚟緊。 29 男聲一:好,好,好。] 30 (錄音播放完畢) 31 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋呢一個其實係比較快嘅例子嚟嘅,我哋計過其實個途人打電話之 32 後,用咗十二秒去解釋火警之後,消防十三秒之後接聽,跟住消防處其實係喺二十 33 八秒喥就第一次同嗰個途人通話,呢一個其實你都聽到係比較初期,嗰個救助嘅電 34 話其實應該係未有嘅。我想你去同我哋解釋一下嗰個用意,因為我哋知道喺999 報 35 案中心嘅指引,其實喺大部分嘅情況之下,其實第一位聽電話嗰位警員其實就唔會 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十二天

6 本謄本由Epiq 編製 去問火警嗰個--發生個位置同埋嗰個打電話嗰位人士佢本身嗰個身份嘅,呢個喺 1 (English Spoken)你哋一般嘅程序裏面係寫得好清楚嘅,我哋可以睇一睇或 2 者WS2/1144 頁,呢個我相信大家都好熟悉個相關嘅程序,睇第3 段,你見到第4 3 行就係我頭先講嘅情況,但我哋見到好多時,可能有一個問題喺絕大部分嘅個案, 4 當然唔係咁緊張嘅情況之下係冇問題,但係喺宏福苑嘅個案裏面,我哋見到好多時 5 打電話嘅人要重複一系列嘅資料去畀消防嘅同事聽,而佢同警方已經講咗一次,而 6 有一啲呢,我哋亦都唔係每一個都可以播,同埋有啲可能當時投訴嘅人比較驚慌, 7 或者其實佢本身已經個環境唔係幾好,要佢重複呢啲信息對佢嚟講都造成一啲嘅壓 8 力,呢一方面我想睇一睇你哋有冇啲咩嘢--經過呢次事件之後有冇啲咩嘢諗法?其 9 實呢個機制要佢去重複資料畀兩個唔同嘅同事,而中間警方係唔會提供任何資料畀 10 消防嘅,呢個做法你哋會唔會喺而家呢個階段有唔同嘅睇法? 11 黃思律先生:我哋呢一個咁嘅做法其實唔係一朝一夕,我哋其實經歷咗好多年我哋嘅經驗先 12 至去發展到今日呢個步驟,點解要即係兩方面都要核實個地址,因為我哋做親嘅 13 call 呢,即係消防處做親嘅所有嘅召喚,其實都係關乎生同死。而最緊要就係我 14 哋一定要攞清楚有兩樣嘢,即係譬如話我哋會問佢嘅年齡、性別,呢個都唔係最緊 15 要,最緊要就係個地址同埋個電話。我哋有陣時亦都以前試過一啲case 係錯一個 16 門牌個號碼我哋就搵唔到,所以我哋好緊張,我哋一定要係每一次都問清楚,當然 17 我--可能呢個--頭先你畀我睇呢個document 應該就係police 嗰邊㗎喇。雖然我 18 都好清楚佢哋個流程,咁但係我哋得就算你話police 幫我哋攞咗之後,我哋係咪 19 可以完全信賴晒嗰位警員嘅資料呢?你今日問我,我都唔敢--即係我都唔會咁樣覺 20 得,我覺得同事係必須要再問,當然,我梗係明白,我哋好了解現場佢哋嗰個求助 21 者嗰種好迫切、好緊張嗰種心情。我諗大家如果當中聽好多嘅錄音,都明白到,其 22 實我哋嘅同事每一日都係面對呢啲咁嘅情況,但係佢哋都會儘量去用一啲好平和嘅 23 方法去調整下佢哋嘅情緒,儘量攞到我哋所需要嘅資料。但係亦都係因為係咁,其 24 實佢哋都好驚,好多時我哋都比較花時間,淨係攞呢啲資料都。但係你今日問我, 25 會唔會因為咁樣可以慳到時間?我嘅答覆就係我寧願花多少少時間攞正確嘅資料, 26 好過我草草了事,收完線之後我去錯咗個地方。 27 杜淦堃資深大律師:黃sir,或者我咁講,其實我嗰個諗法同你冇分別,只不過係似乎喺警 28 察嗰個流程裏面,佢哋係冇需要去問嗰個人嘅身份同埋個地址,其實佢哋應該聽到 29 有火警係儘快駁畀你哋,可唔可以咁講? 30 黃思律先生:就住警察嗰方面,我唔會作出任何評論,因為亦都唔係喺我嘅(English 31 Spoken)可以講得到。 32 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白。 33 黃思律先生:我亦都唔了解佢哋有咩嘢困難。 34 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係嗰個設計個原意,或者睇下可唔可以確認,其實警方可能係唔應該- 35 -如果知道有火警嘅話,其實佢哋係唔應該再用時間要問求助者嘅資料,佢哋一聽到 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十二天

7 本謄本由Epiq 編製 有火警,其實應該係第一時間駁畀你哋,可唔可以咁講?呢個係咪你嘅理解? 1 黃思律先生:呢個係我嘅理解,做得最完美嘅情況係咁樣。 2 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白,即係我哋講緊有好多唔同同埋複雜嘅情況。但係如果我哋聽到啲 3 個案係佢哋已經問咗一次相關嘅內容,跟住先轉駁畀你哋呢,呢個似乎唔係個用 4 意,可唔可以咁講? 5 黃思律先生:如果我今--可以咁講,正確應該係可以咁講。 6 杜淦堃資深大律師:亦都我見到有啲情況,可能點解佢哋去問,就係因為當日其實接駁嗰個 7 時間到火警發生咗冇耐都係相當嘅,所以可能佢哋想保持個對話,即係我哋猜度唔 8 到個原因。但係而家去聽番呢啲求助嘅電話,似乎有好多時,求助者都係要重複佢 9 哋嘅資料嘅,呢個我相信你哋都留意到? 10 黃思律先生:留意到。 11 杜淦堃資深大律師:而可唔可以咁講呢?呢個做法同原先嗰個設計似乎係有啲出入? 12 黃思律先生:呢個設計唔係喺我嗰方面知嘅,因為--唔好意思,嗄。 13 杜淦堃資深大律師:我明,我淨係--我只係想你確認,雖然第一道防線似乎係警方,但係原 14 先個設計似乎就唔係需要佢哋再問多一次。 15 黃思律先生:似乎唔係,我哋--老實講,去到我哋收call 嘅同事亦都唔需要。 16 杜淦堃資深大律師:正如你頭先所講,你哋唔會依賴警方畀你哋嘅資料㗎嘛,你哋係想第一 17 身自己去聽㗎嘛? 18 黃思律先生:冇錯,冇錯,不過我都要強調,其實好多時有啲情況呢,警方嘅即係接線同事 19 都幫咗我哋好多。 20 杜淦堃資深大律師:當然,當然。 21 黃思律先生:因為有陣時我哋真係用好多方法都唔能夠攞到我哋要嘅資料嘅時候,可能之前 22 啲警方同事佢已經攞咗,佢都會將呢啲資料話番畀我哋聽。 23 杜淦堃資深大律師:我諗其實我哋想探討嘅就係其實兩方面嘅協調,同埋畀可能前線同事嘅 24 指示,呢一方面我哋比較有興趣。我哋見到啱啱有呢個情況,就係有啲求助者要重 25 複資料,另外我想問一問你,就係嗰個樽頸嘅問題,因為我哋喺警方方面攞到嘅證 26 據知道呢,其實警署(English Spoken)嗰面係有三個999 嘅報案中心,每一 27 個報案中心有69 條線,所以其實同一時間佢哋可以處理207 個--超過二百個嘅求 28 助電話嘅,與此同時你哋FSCC,你哋一共有30 條電話線。 29 黃思律先生:冇錯。 30 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,日更你哋--日更你哋有37 位同事當值,晚更有31 位,呢個係平 31 時嘅情況? 32 黃思律先生:係。 33 杜淦堃資深大律師:而你哋亦都提到最多係可以同一時間處理30 個嘅求助個案,因為有30 34 條線。 35 黃思律先生:係,冇錯。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十二天

8 本謄本由Epiq 編製 杜淦堃資深大律師:喺呢一個火警裏面我哋見到有好多求助者同一時間打999,所以我哋見 1 到其實係亦都冇辦法,有一個樽頸嘅情況出現咗,而嗰個樽頸嘅情況,因為警方嗰 2 方面嘅線路比較多,好多時都係轉駁去消防嗰度,喺嗰個位出現樽頸,你嘅理解都 3 係咪咁樣樣? 4 黃思律先生:我嘅理解係的而且確佢有啲call 係會喺我哋嗰度要等候一啲時間,但係我亦 5 都知道有一部分嘅call,其實接去999 嘅時候,已經係需要等一定嘅時間。但係 6 當中嗰個--因為始終係999(English Spoken)嗰邊,我哋唔係太了解點解要等。 7 因為頭先剛才你所指出嘅資料,我其實都唔係好掌握,我而家就知道佢有二百幾條線。 8 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋或者聽一聽另外一個電話,因為我哋當日第三個喺宏昌閣打入嚟報 9 警嘅居民,佢係喺502 室嘅,我哋知道佢係喺晏晝3 點02 秒打999,十三秒之後 10 就接聽嘅。 11 (播放錄音) 12 〔男聲一:喂,我--999,有咩嘢幫到你? 13 女聲一:喂,係,宏昌閣火燭呀,唔該。 14 男聲一:我哋接去消防。 15 (電話接駁鈴聲) 16 女聲一:係。〕 17 (錄音播放暫停) 18 杜淦堃資深大律師:停一停先。呢一個就係另外一個例子嚟,佢好快駁咗畀消防嘅,呢個似 19 乎係個原意嘅,佢聽到火燭,就即刻駁畀消防,你嘅理解都係咁? 20 黃思律先生:係,同意。 21 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,但係因為嗰個時間嘅問題,我哋見3 點其實都比較多人打電話,之 22 後係等咗1 分32 秒先至你哋聽到嗰個電話嘅,咁你播埋之後嘅一小段。 23 (繼續播放錄音) 24 〔(電話接駁鈴聲) 25 女聲二:點呀? 26 女聲一:呢個我咁多嘢嘞,嗰--嗰邊個煙好犀利呀。 27 女聲二:...(聽不清)知唔知呀? 28 男聲一:你知唔知幾多樓發生㗎? 29 女聲一:誒而家發--火緊燭呀,我哋...(聽不清) 30 男聲一:你知唔知幾多樓發生㗎? 31 女聲一:誒樓下--樓下返嚟嘅。 32 男聲一:即係幾多樓呀? 33 女聲一:...(聽不清)嘅,係。 34 男聲一:幾多樓發生呀?知唔知呀? 35 女聲一:我哋唔知呀,我而家喺屋企呀。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十二天

9 本謄本由Epiq 編製 男聲一:你自己安唔安全㗎? 1 女聲一:而家嗰啲煙呢出晒--入晒屋個囉喎。 2 男聲一:啲煙入屋,係咪呀? 3 女聲一:係呀。 4 男聲一:你自己姓咩嘢㗎? 5 女聲一:我係工人嘅,我同婆婆住嘅。 6 男聲一:哦,你自己電話係幾多㗎? 7 (嗶聲) 8 男聲一:你唔好收線住,你等救援員問清楚你現場嘅情況先。你嗰度係宏福苑宏昌閣吖嘛, 9 係咪呀? 10 女聲一:係,係,係。 11 男聲一:初步可以話畀你知呢,消防係趕緊過嚟嘅。 12 女聲一:係。 13 男聲一:不過你而家唔好收線住,你等消防員問清楚你先。 14 女聲一:係。 15 (電話接駁鈴聲) 16 女聲一:對方冇聽電話嘅。 17 女聲二:...(聽不清) 18 男聲二:消防...(聽不清)有咩嘢幫到你? 19 男聲一:個宏福苑嗰個fire。 20 男聲二:喂。 21 女聲一:喂,係。 22 男聲二:係,女士,有咩嘢幫到你? 23 女聲一:誒我哋火燭呀,呢度誒宏昌閣,宏福苑。 24 男聲二:係,嗱,女士,係咪宏昌閣嗰度有火燭呀,火警呀見到。 25 女聲一:係,係。 26 男聲二:嗱,我哋救護車--我哋消防車已經嚟緊㗎嘞,嚟你宏昌閣嗰度,誒想問下你而家需 27 唔需要誒消防嚟帶你離開現場? 28 女聲一:我要呀,我哋同婆婆,我哋兩個人而家喺屋企。 29 男聲二:係咪即係你而家需要消防帶你--帶你離開,啱唔啱? 30 女聲一:係。 31 男聲二:係,你而家喺--喺邊個位置? 32 女聲一:誒502 室。 33 男聲二:502。 34 女聲一:係。 35 男聲二:502 單位,你裏面有幾多人呀? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十二天

10 本謄本由Epiq 編製 (嗶聲) 1 男聲二:你裏--裏面有幾多人? 2 女聲一:我同婆婆。 3 男聲二:係,都係兩位女士,啱唔啱? 4 女聲一:係。 5 男聲二:嗄,想問下你幾多歲呀? 6 女聲一:我誒三十--39。 7 男聲二:39 歲女士,咁你另一個呢?另一個幾多歲? 8 女聲一:婆婆98 嘞。 9 男聲二:98 歲,想問下你而家係咪見到有煙、有火呀? 10 女聲一:...(聽不清)好大火嘅。 11 男聲二:喺邊--你而家有冇--有冇燒到落你哋度? 12 女聲一:𧶄啲就...(聽不清)嗰啲煙已經好黑--黑--黑晒㗎嘞。 13 男聲二:明白,咁你而家安唔安全㗎?女士。 14 女聲一:誒暫時就可以嘅。 15 男聲二:咁係咪都需要消防過嚟帶你離開? 16 女聲二:...(聽不清) 17 男聲二:你需唔需要--你需唔需要消防帶你離開現場? 18 女聲一:係要嘅,我都好驚呀,好驚。 19 男聲二:明白,嗱,放心呀,我哋會派消防上嚟搵你吖。 20 女聲一:係。 21 男聲二:好,唔該你。〕 22 (錄音播放完畢) 23 杜淦堃資深大律師:我播晒呢一段,因為呢一個亦都係當時一個幾普偏嘅情況,但呢個其實 24 係處理得比較快嘅,因為最嚴重嗰啲例子我哋見到其實有啲係等咗--搞咗十五分鐘 25 先至駁到,因為呢個同當日嗰個流量係有關。我哋見到中間其實我哋聽到有啲 26 「嘟」嘅聲,其實佢嗰個線路中間都係中斷過嘅,但係其實都係駁得番嘅。我想提 27 到,同你探討嘅就係,我哋見到你嘅證人供詞裏面4.4.2 段,你提到當日喺 28 15:20 ,消防處處長就大約就動員咗八十位制服人員喺嗰一刻就成立咗個 29 (English Spoken),開設咗額外嘅十八條線,而你喺及後第三份證人供詞裏 30 面亦都有講到,呢個(English Spoken )其實主要係唔係協助聽嗰啲求助電 31 話,佢哋係處理我哋之後會討論嗰個叫做(English Spoken)嗰個程序,即係 32 打番電話畀啲求助者。我哋見到當日嗰個樽頸位問題,我哋明白唔係每日都會發生 33 呢啲事情,但係經過呢次之後,你哋覺唔覺得其實有嘢係可以解決呢個問題? 34 黃思律先生:我想講一講就係當其時我哋同事其實係知道好急切,其實佢哋都好急,佢哋早 35 多一秒佢哋都想可以早一秒聽啲電話,我哋睇番成件事,我哋係一定要去改善呢方 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十二天

11 本謄本由Epiq 編製 面,即係無論喺人手、硬件上面、技術上面,我哋都希望可以將我哋之後嘅運力, 1 即係嗰個運作嘅能力進一步去提高,呢個係必須。 2 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係呢個牽涉都係一個資源嘅問題? 3 黃思律先生:當然呢個。 4 杜淦堃資深大律師:如果當日譬如有多啲人去處理FSCC 嗰啲求助個案,大家都明白嗰個時 5 間可能會短啲。 6 黃思律先生:冇錯。 7 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係人係得咁多,似乎當日個調配都係得咁多。 8 黃思律先生:當其時其實--頭先都提到,其實我哋有三十條線,平時用唔到嘅。 9 杜淦堃資深大律師:用唔到。 10 黃思律先生:雖然我哋個通訊中心每日接收緊二千幾個嘅救護嘅個案,一百多個嘅火警個 11 案,但係平時我哋都用唔晒,咁當日其實我哋都有啲同事係叫輪休緊,因為佢哋唔 12 會坐足晒喺咁多個鐘頭喺度㗎嘛,佢一定會有啲時間休息,但係我哋見到個情況就 13 已經叫晒所有同事,所有輪休嘅同事落番嚟(English Spoken ),開晒所有 14 (English Spoken ),即係所有嘅電話線,包括工作台。咁而頭先提到嗰個 15 (English Spoken)其實都幫到我哋,本身(English Spoken)係要做一 16 個(English Spoken)嘅工夫,可能稍後我哋都會提到,我都唔詳談。但係其 17 實我哋已經係用盡晒我哋所有嘅人員,同埋頭先嗰八十位同事其實都係邊度嚟嘅, 18 其實佢哋有自己嘅工作,佢哋都係喺我哋嘅即係總部裏面... 19 杜淦堃資深大律師:調配過嚟。 20 黃思律先生:...調配過嚟,臨時叫佢放低手頭上嘅工作,即時落嚟幫手。 21 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋就警方畀我哋嘅四百零七個求助電話嘅紀錄裏面,如果我哋去計一 22 計當時其實用咗幾多時間,其實平均個通話時間係三分二十四秒,即係扣除咗嗰個 23 等候嘅時間,其實每個電話你哋係講大概兩分鐘喥,可唔可以咁講? 24 黃思律先生:可以咁講,但係我有少少補充,其實嗰個講嘅時間可能係兩分鐘,但係佢仲要 25 係收集咗資料之後,其實佢要馬上一路聽嘅時候,佢一路去輸入喺電腦嗰度,另外 26 佢亦都要同前線去溝通,用無線電或者用其他方法將嗰啲信息,將求助嘅信息傳達 27 番畀我哋嘅前線同事。所以可以咁講,我哋每處理一個個案,其實大約需要五分鐘 28 嘅時間。 29 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,所以我就係想講就係,應該其實實際上高係唔止三分幾鐘嘅? 30 黃思律先生:冇錯。 31 杜淦堃資深大律師:平時處理個個案,聽過--即係你問咗有關嘅資料,其實都要五分鐘? 32 黃思律先生:最少。 33 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,咁加埋等,所以今次平均嚟講,一個--當然有長、有短,好多居民 34 打去,其實由等到講完個電話,個時間其實係幾長? 35 黃思律先生:會長嘅,但係我都想講一講就係,我哋事後我哋都有做一個統計,其實當日我 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十二天

12 本謄本由Epiq 編製 哋喺宏福苑呢件事件發生咗之後,我哋入嚟嘅所有嘅電話,我哋平均都--個等候時 1 間係五十八秒,即係一分鐘裏面已經可以接聽到。當然,我哋知道頭先嗰個case 2 係比較長啲,係一啲比較極端嘅個案嚟。 3 杜淦堃資深大律師:冇錯。 4 黃思律先生:但係你話五十八秒係咪好好,我唔會咁樣嘅覺得,但係我覺得正如我頭先所 5 講,我哋越快越好,我哋嘅目標係即時聽到,但係我覺得如果喺即係整體嚟講,所 6 以亦都喺我嘅書面供詞裏面提到,喺咁嘅角度嚟講,我覺得即係我哋嘅人手配置都 7 係即係恰當嘅。 8 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,因為其實嗰個五十八秒,我見到你第二份證人供詞個4.5.1 段, 9 即係164 頁,Bundle WS1 嗰度,你回答我哋嘅問題時候你咁講嘅,你話「儘管 10 當日其實就有好多嘅電話」,有個(English Spoken)無端端多咗好多。有個 11 FSCC 之後,其實你哋都喺平均一分鐘之內就接到嗰啲電話,呢度就講 12 “(English Spoken)”,即係嗰日之後嘅時間。所以你哋覺得個(English 13 Spoken ),你哋人手方面就係其實可以(English Spoken )嗰日嗰個事件 14 嘅。但係我哋--所以我哋有個疑問就係咁嘅,呢個一分鐘接聽到呢個講法,其實我 15 頭先同你講,如果我哋計番大部分嘅電話,其實係個平均係講咗三分二十四秒嘅 16 話,我哋想睇睇個數據係點得出嚟,因為你話“(English Spoken)”,似乎 17 我哋個理解就即係佢打電話到消防處個接駁時間似乎係一分鐘,係咪?即係係由警 18 方轉介過嚟定係佢由開始打999 接畀警方嗰個時間? 19 黃思律先生:由警方轉介過嚟,要等候嘅時間,即係由佢轉介過嚟,直到我哋有同事攞起個 20 電話聽到嘅時間。 21 杜淦堃資深大律師:而你講“(English Spoken)”嘅意思係乜嘢?即係由... 22 黃思律先生:即係... 23 杜淦堃資深大律師:...成立咗嗰個... 24 黃思律先生:唔係,因為本身我哋個(English Spoken),我哋好難就住每一個call 25 嘅性質,即係話可唔可以抽番宏福苑嗰啲call 出嚟睇,我哋冇呢個咁嘅即係數 26 據,要花好多時間,所以我哋睇就係由宏福苑發生之後,譬如係講緊14:52 呢段 27 時間打後嘅所有call,即係當然係包括宏福苑嘅來電,我哋睇番所有嘅來電加埋 28 晒,直到去凌晨,因為大家都知道,其實個宏福苑嘅事故係橫跨咗兩日,所有我哋 29 一路計落去,之後嗰個接聽時間,所有嘅來電我哋係五十八秒裏面平均可以聽得 30 到。即係簡單嚟講,應該係咁樣講,應該係市民普遍平均要等五十八秒,就會有我 31 哋嘅同事可以接聽到佢嘅電話。 32 杜淦堃資深大律師:如果當日你哋--即係正如你頭先你嘅經驗都話畀你知,其實要攞到相關 33 嘅資料大概需要係五分鐘? 34 黃思律先生:攞資料唔需要,我哋仲要有其他嘅動作做埋,大概需要五分鐘。攞資料一般嚟 35 講好似頭先大狀你所講,其實係幾分鐘,兩至三分鐘嘅時間。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十二天

13 本謄本由Epiq 編製 杜淦堃資深大律師:因為如果我哋睇番嘅,就我睇下你幫唔幫到我哋,如果我哋睇番平均電 1 話嗰個長度係三分幾鐘嘅話,如果等都係等咗一分鐘嘅話,兩分幾鐘應該係攞唔晒 2 啲資料嘅? 3 黃思律先生:兩分幾鐘係可以攞得晒啲資料嘅。 4 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係個電話嘅長度應該唔止兩分幾鐘?真係講。 5 黃思律先生:唔止。 6 杜淦堃資深大律師:所以我想問一問你嘅就係,從呢啲數據,你睇唔睇到嗰個挑戰或者嗰個 7 情況?因為如果我哋平均睇到電話,由佢駁畀消防,到到講完嗰個長度係三分二十 8 四秒嘅話,換句話講,呢個一分鐘之內接聽嘅講法,同埋你平時個經驗係唔止兩分 9 鐘,點解會當日嗰個電話嘅平均長度係咁樣樣?即係有冇啲解釋,或者你有冇啲見 10 到你而家睇番,反映到當時嘅情況係會令到有啲咁嘅數據出現?所以我哋要假設個 11 數據係準確呢? 12 黃思律先生:或者我可唔可以咁樣即係嘗試去理解大狀你所講嗰樣嘢。其實我哋嗰五十八秒 13 就係講緊我哋平均一個市民打上電嚟要等五十八秒,我哋就有人聽咗佢電話,聽咗 14 佢電話之後,我哋要用--如果用番頭先個例子,就係用咗三分二十八秒嚟到攞佢嘅 15 資料,然之後我哋將嗰啲資料轉達畀前線,可能亦都需要一分鐘或者分零鐘嘅時 16 間。所以如果係咁嘅情況之下,total 成個call 可能就係講緊五分零六分鐘嘅時 17 間。咁至於頭先大狀你所講到嗰三分二十八秒,點樣影響到嗰五十八秒,其實係兩 18 件事嚟,五十八秒係講緊市民需要等候我哋接聽佢電話嘅時間。 19 杜淦堃資深大律師:你哋有冇指標或者有冇程序係講咗其實理想地,你哋係由接到個電話到 20 攞到有關嘅資料係要幾耐完成? 21 黃思律先生:越快越好嘅,其實我哋冇一個硬性嘅指標。因為其實我都要解釋一下,唔同嘅 22 求助者佢嘅表達能力會有唔同。當中其實可能我亦都試過,可--一路攞咗成十幾二 23 十分鐘都未必攞到我哋真係需要嘅資料,亦都有咁嘅情況,甚至乎有啲外語嘅求助 24 者,咁我哋呢啲咁嘅情況,我哋唔能夠即係設立一個硬性嘅指標,就話同事一定要 25 點樣做。但係如果你問我,我哋嘅(English Spoken )係點樣教嘅,越快越 26 好,儘快。 27 杜淦堃資深大律師:點解我咁問你,亦都即係唔係話想考你記性,如果我睇番B3/2689 28 頁,呢份文件係叫做“(English Spoken)”,你可唔可以解一解呢份文件個 29 作用同埋係愛嚟做咩嘢? 30 黃思律先生:呢一份文件係本身我哋--畀我哋嘅調派組嘅同事,我都要解釋一下,本身我哋 31 消防處係有三個職系嘅人士,包括咗救火嘅即係滅火嘅人士、救護,同埋第三個就 32 係一個調派及通訊組,呢個係專門畀佢哋平時係一個框架可以跟住去做嘢,一啲指 33 引,佢哋可以知道大概應該點樣做法。 34 杜淦堃資深大律師:我喺呢度睇到第二段,即係第二部分,有一度2.1.1 好明顯「快」, 35 即係其實嗰個要求係儘快處理。我哋見到(c)嗰度講接收事件報告,「電話接通 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十二天

14 本謄本由Epiq 編製 後,調派員應於最短時間內從報案人口中取得所需資料,而大多數嘅情況下,需時 1 不應超過一分鐘,不論調派員當時是負責處理火警或者特別服務召喚或者救援。」 2 呢個應該都係你哋個指標嚟嘅? 3 黃思律先生:係,冇錯。 4 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係未必係一個硬指標? 5 黃思律先生:並不是硬指標。 6 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係聽你所講,如果我哋要攞出相關嘅資料,通常都要係兩分幾鐘嘅 7 話,呢個同本身話一分鐘之內攞到相關嘅資料,似乎有少少出入嘅,呢一個,可唔 8 可以咁 講? 9 黃思律先生:唔可以咁講。 10 杜淦堃資深大律師:係。 11 黃思律先生:本身... 12 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢個唔係一個批評,我想你解釋啫。 13 黃思律先生:明白,我想解釋一下就係,如果我哋上番去睇,睇番個大標題--唔係大標題, 14 sorry,個(English Spoken),2.2.1 嗰度,「快」,我哋喺嗰度已經表明 15 就係,其實嗰一分鐘係講緊我哋個目標嚟嘅,我哋甚至乎覺得唔應該一分鐘添,如 16 果你可以更加快嘅,就應該更加快。但係你冇可能就咁完全冇一個指標,就叫啲同 17 事去做㗎嘛。但係雖然我哋了解到可能都需要超過一分鐘,但係我覺得訂立呢個指 18 標,就係你起碼都用呢一個做指標,可以快啲嘅就更加快。 19 杜淦堃資深大律師:我唯一嘅觀察就係,你講嘅嘢可能全部都係啱嘅,但係同呢個指標所表 20 達嗰個寫法可能係有少少出入,因為佢話「在大多數嘅情況下,需時係唔應該超過 21 一分鐘」,咁就係呢個指標嘅問題,... 22 黃思律先生:明白。 23 杜淦堃資深大律師:...即係同你哋實際個情況脫咗節,定係當時大家嘅畀同事嘅嗰個期望 24 有啲唔同,可唔可以講一講? 25 黃思律先生:首先要講一講乜嘢叫大多數嘅情況之下,好明顯,宏福苑呢一次嘅事件就一定 26 並不喺大多數嘅情況之下。所以頭先你引用咗個三分幾鐘嘅例子出嚟,我亦都講到 27 明就係,即係我亦都表明就係點解會係超過咗一分鐘,因為今次係一個好特別嘅事 28 件,我哋同事形容係史無前例,我亦都非常同意呢個講法。 29 所以你話我哋呢個一分鐘係咪可以去作出調整,我哋覺得我哋嘅即係訓令何時 30 都需要去(English Spoken),何時都需要作出調整。而可以落一落,其實我 31 哋下低嗰位同事簽名,應該有個日子,大概係幾多嘅,係,其實都係2025 年,我 32 想講我哋嘅即係訓令其實係不時會係更新,不過今日亦都多謝即係大狀你指出呢個 33 咁嘅即係表達上嘅問題,可能我哋返去都會諗一諗點樣再同同事去講,點樣去寫得 34 好啲。但係個原意就係儘快,唔係話即係有一個既定嘅硬指標喺度。 35 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,當然,即係我哋都明白其實呢啲指引可能需要不時更新,亦都可能- 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十二天

15 本謄本由Epiq 編製 -呢個亦都對同事嗰個--你哋畀佢嘅培訓,或者畀佢哋嘅指示會有關係。但係我聽 1 你咁講,即係當然,雖然當日嗰個情況係複雜,可能你哋同事平時唔係處理呢一個 2 情況,但係好讓大家明白當時嘅情況,或者你可唔可以解釋多少少,點解當日就求 3 助者你需要問佢嘅資料或者嗰個電話嘅長度,同平時處理嘅情況會有分別?可唔可 4 以畀多少少解釋我哋?因為我明可能點解要超過一分鐘,但係點解就宏福苑呢一個 5 例子會係咁?我哋明白火警規模大,好多人同時打嚟,但係對於你同每一個人攞嘅 6 資料所需嘅時間,點解會有個分別? 7 黃思律先生:好,我嘗試去解釋一下。一般嚟講,如果我哋火警嘅時候,假設我個單位著 8 火,咁我咪報火警鐘,我就打電話999,跟住就講我個地址,好清晰嘅,邊一個單 9 位。但係今次嗰個火勢,大家其實都知道,佢係蔓延得、發展得好快,甚至乎頭先 10 我哋聽到第一個即係報火警嘅人士,其實佢都講唔得清楚究竟係--甚至乎佢係連邊 11 一座都唔清楚,同埋我哋收到好多嘅來電其實並非佢本人,或者求助,或者係報火 12 警都好,並非佢本人嘅,其實可能係幫人哋打,佢亦都未必好清楚當其時佢想幫嗰 13 個人個位置喺邊,或者佢嘅親戚朋友喺邊個位置,所以呢個係花咗好多時間要去即 14 係釐清番呢啲咁嘅資料,咁同我哋以往即係一般嘅即係個案嚟講,係完全都性質上 15 都唔同。 16 當然,即係個時間嗰方面亦都係,仲有加上頭先我所講就係,要睇下究竟嗰個 17 求助者佢本身個表達能力,當其時佢個驚慌程度係點樣,咁好多時我哋都要花啲時 18 間去安撫咗,「你唔好咁緊張先,你慢慢講」,咁呢啲慢慢講咪就係又--亦都係用 19 咗時間。 20 杜淦堃資深大律師:所以即係我諗你嘅解釋,如果我咁樣理解又啱唔啱?其實可能呢個指標 21 本身喺大部分嘅個案冇問題,但係喺宏福苑呢個比較複雜嘅情況可能就會比較困 22 難? 23 黃思律先生:或者我都想指出一點,我除咗係即係通訊調派中心嘅即係負責人之外,因為頭 24 先即係大狀你都有提到就係我係負責呢個行動支援同埋專業發展。 25 杜淦堃資深大律師:係。 26 黃思律先生:所以我亦都係有份負責或者係畀高層去建議一啲即係做法,同埋制訂一啲指 27 引。我哋嘅大部分嘅指引,應該咁樣講,我哋嘅所有嘅指引,其實都就住我哋以往 28 嘅經驗去制訂。但係今次呢一個事件其實好多時都未必可以用得到,因為點解,因 29 為我哋又咁樣講嘅其實,我哋嘅指引其實並非鐵板一塊嚟嘅,我哋唔會話「你一定 30 要咁做」,尤其是將在外,軍令有所不從。我哋好多時,我哋個訓練係要訓練一個- 31 -尤其是指揮官,佢去到現場係要有佢自己嘅(English Spoken),因應唔同嘅 32 情況,佢要識得隨機應變。所以唔係一個硬指標,我哋所有嘅(English 33 Spoken)係一個規範,知道等佢--我哋儘量都會跟,等佢知道點樣做,但係去到 34 一個宏福苑咁大嘅事件,你會發覺喺好多唔同嘅細節,其實我哋同事都用咗佢哋自 35 己嘅智慧,用咗佢哋嘅當其時嘅一個應變嘅能力去務求做好個工作。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十二天

16 本謄本由Epiq 編製 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白。我哋之後再探討晒所有我哋見到嘅難處,之後我哋再去探討一下 1 有啲咩嘢可以改進,或者有咩嘢經驗可以吸收。我哋見到另外有啲情況,就係市民 2 係等唔到消防處接通電話收咗線嘅,即係其實佢同警方講完就已經斷咗線,即係呢 3 個情況都唔少嘅。譬如我哋知道第一個喺宏福苑居民嘅求助電話,係宏昌閣1005 4 號單位,呢個係王嘉婉女士。警方嘅顯示其實佢喺--佢好早打電話,佢晏晝14 點 5 52 分係報警嘅,警方係其實廿四秒之後就聽到佢電話,我哋都聽一聽。 6 (播放錄音) 7 〔女聲一:999 警察,要警察定救護車? 8 女聲二:喂。 9 女聲一:係呀,要警察定救護車呀? 10 女聲二:呢度大埔廣福邨--唔係,宏福苑宏昌閣。 11 女聲一:唔。 12 女聲二:我聞到好臭,成個走廊都係煙,我要搵人即刻嚟,火燭呀好似,有燒--有棚--棚架 13 燒著咗呀。 14 女聲一:咩嘢吖? 15 女聲二:喂? 16 女聲一:係呀,...(聽不清) 17 女聲二:棚架燒著咗。 18 女聲一:有棚架燒著咗,係咪呀?咁而家你去--落--去安全地方先,好唔好呀? 19 女聲二:好呀。 20 女聲一:唔,你嗰度係--你有冇睇到啲煙係喺幾多樓呀? 21 女聲二:我10 樓一定有煙,好--成個走廊都係煙。 22 女聲一:即係十--10 樓走廊就全部都係煙,係咪呀? 23 女聲二:係呀,冇錯。 24 女聲一:好,我而家就駁緊消防,可能好多人報,你去安全地方先,好唔好?唔,10 樓成層 25 都係煙呀,係咪呀? 26 (電話接駁鈴聲)〕 27 (錄音播放完畢) 28 杜淦堃資深大律師:我有兩個問題想你幫一幫我哋嘅。第一,如果我哋睇番指引,其實警方 29 係唔應該或者唔需要問佢咁多資料嘅,一聽到有火警,第一時間,我駁畀消防,好 30 似我哋之前聽嗰個電話咁,你嘅理解都係咁嘅,係咪? 31 黃思律先生:可以咁講,係,我嘅理解係咁。 32 杜淦堃資深大律師:第二,我想你都講一講,譬如呢個情況我哋都見到唔少,其實等唔到去 33 消防嗰度,警方同你哋個默契點樣處理,如果係咁? 34 黃思律先生:喺呢啲情況之下,如果佢真係等唔到嘅,其實警方都會有個--同我哋有個機 35 制,將佢所攞到嘅資料去轉駁畀我--即係轉交畀我哋。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十二天

17 本謄本由Epiq 編製 杜淦堃資深大律師:係點做實際上?因為佢會口述打番去畀你哋嘅中心,定係你哋有系統會 1 輸入資料,嗰個就呢啲情況點做?因為我哋見到都唔少。 2 黃思律先生:佢哋會用一個紙本形式fax 畀我哋。 3 杜淦堃資深大律師:紙本fax 你? 4 黃思律先生:係。 5 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係基本上佢要將有關嘅資料就用文件記低,跟住send fax 畀你哋? 6 黃思律先生:冇錯。 7 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁嗰個fax 會去到邊度? 8 黃思律先生:去到我哋通訊中心。 9 杜淦堃資深大律師:而有一位同事就會專門係睇警方過嚟嘅fax 個案? 10 黃思律先生:係,冇錯。 11 杜淦堃資深大律師:我明可能大部分嘅情況之下呢個做法都唔係一個問題,就宏福苑呢個個 12 案或者有啲大型嘅火災,呢一個做法其實係唔係都唔係好有效率你覺得? 13 黃思律先生:唔係好有效率嘅意思係即係你覺得佢有更好嘅方法? 14 陸啟康法官:唔係,我就係想問下你哋有冇更好嘅方法? 15 陸啟康法官:即係而家呢個時代用fax 已經好似... 16 黃思律先生:我哋都覺得係,所以其實喺系統上面,我哋覺得最好就係梗係可以系統直接即 17 係去(English Spoken)一啲(English Spoken )過嚟。但係喺當我哋去 18 發展呢一套咁嘅調派系統嘅時候,當時未有呢個科技。 19 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想問呢個做法,即係話譬如警方將啲資料轉交畀消防,再打出嚟 20 send 張fax 畀佢,據你嘅理解係幾多年前開始? 21 黃思律先生:我冇呢個咁嘅認知,但係喺我講緊做即係比較低職級嘅時間,我諗都係講緊二 22 零一幾年,都已經係咁嘅做法。 23 杜淦堃資深大律師:因為我諗主席都講咗,我哋想探討下就係因為其實fax 機喺社會上高其 24 實都差唔多被淘汰嘅一個工具嚟嘅,或者咁講都唔係唔公道,好少用fax 去溝通, 25 因為呢個亦都唔係最高效率嘅方法嚟嘅,靠呢啲紙本。 26 黃思律先生:不過我都想咁樣講,即係喺當其時嚟講,其實要傳輸一啲咁嘅即係資料,其實 27 可以選擇嘅方法都唔多,一係就電話,最早期就係用電話,後期有fax 嘅話,其實 28 已經算係好少少。當然到到今日,你用今日嘅標準嚟講,當然係我覺得係有改進嘅 29 地方。 30 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係換句話講,喺你哋嘅--我哋知道,之後我哋都會講一啲嘅電腦系 31 統,有啲通訊嘅設備,警方嗰個系統喺嗰個連線上高係除咗靠我哋用電話線嚟 32 send fax,系統上高係冇接駁嘅,可唔可以咁講? 33 黃思律先生:據我理解,暫時未有。 34 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白。 35 陸啟康法官:我想問多一樣嘢,就你頭先所講即係警方嗰度接電話,咁佢即刻會轉駁畀你㗎 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十二天

18 本謄本由Epiq 編製 嘛? 1 黃思律先生:係。 2 陸啟康法官:咁係唔係其實佢駁畀你嗰個時候,佢都會同佢講嘢,即係譬如佢接駁畀你嗰陣 3 時佢要等,其實嗰個警方嘅同事係唔係會喺嗰個時候橫掂都等,就同佢講攞啲資料 4 先呢? 5 黃思律先生:主席閣下... 6 陸啟康法官:即係佢可唔可以兩樣一齊做即係同時,抑或佢一定要同佢講完,佢先駁畀你, 7 抑或係... 8 黃思律先生:其實如果頭先聽番錄音,佢係兩樣嘢一齊做緊,佢係駁緊嘅時間,佢亦都我見 9 到--即係我聽到亦都(English Spoken)嘅同事有同嗰個即係求助者保持一個通 10 話。 11 陸啟康法官:其實呢個係一個好嘅做法,因為橫掂都等,咁不如我攞多啲資料橫掂都會。 12 黃思律先生:主席閣下,我未必係一個好嘅(English Spoken )去(English 13 Spoken)呢樣嘢,但係就我個人嘅睇法,我覺得係好嘅。 14 杜淦堃資深大律師:或者就主席呢一個嘅問題,我都想向你探討以下嘅題目,我哋見到其實 15 指引裏面,警方因為個原意係會好快接駁到畀消防,所以佢唔應該同佢攞有關嘅訊 16 息,當日當然有唔同嘅情況,甚至乎佢可能安撫緊嗰位求助者。但係嗰個問題亦都 17 出現咗,就係有好多訊息畀咗警方,而你哋個指引就係你哋係唔倚賴佢哋畀警方嘅 18 訊息,你哋會再問過佢一次嘅。 19 黃思律先生:冇錯。 20 杜淦堃資深大律師:因為學你話你話齋,即係其實你哋要第一身聽到,係咪咁講? 21 黃思律先生:冇錯,倚賴唔到。 22 杜淦堃資深大律師:所以有利有弊,可能佢安撫咗嗰位嘅居民,但係其實佢就重複一啲嘅訊 23 息,要由頭講多一次。 24 黃思律先生:冇錯。 25 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋亦都見到有啲例子其實係個求助者收咗線,警方留番喺個線上高, 26 去轉述番嗰個求助者個訊息畀消防嘅同事。據你理解,呢個唔係你哋程序上高嘅做 27 法嚟嘅,聽你咁講,其實收咗線佢就應該係打張fax send 過嚟,可唔可以咁講? 28 黃思律先生:頭先係講緊話當我哋已經接通咗消防,三方... 29 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔係,我哋頭先嗰個例子,啱啱聽到分幾鐘嗰個,就係因為佢講咗畀警 30 方知有火警,然之後警方接駁畀消防,但係等咗分幾鐘等唔到線斷咗。我哋見到有 31 啲例子就係因為求助者條線斷咗,但係個警方嘅同事仲喺線上,佢就轉述番求助者 32 嘅消息畀消防嘅同事,呢個應該唔係你哋一般嘅做法嚟嘅? 33 黃思律先生:其中一個做法,即係如果你係佢收咗線之後,又或者係即係個求助者收咗線, 34 佢打嚟畀我哋嘅同事口述番嗰啲資料畀我哋,呢個係唔係一個正常嘅做法? 35 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十二天

19 本謄本由Epiq 編製 黃思律先生:呢個係其中一個做法嚟嘅。 1 杜淦堃資深大律師:佢唔係再打畀佢,佢係因為只係個求助者斷咗線,個警員一路都喺度等 2 緊你哋... 3 黃思律先生:跟住等到我哋接通,... 4 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,就話番你聽... 5 黃思律先生:...然後跟住用口述嘅方法將嗰啲資料話畀我哋聽。 6 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁我想問下你喺程序上高,換句話講,佢唔係一定要頭先你咁講send 7 張fax 過嚟,佢可以口述畀你聽? 8 黃思律先生:呢個係其中一個做法,亦都即係通常嘅一個做法。但係如果譬如話舉個例子, 9 即係佢連等我哋都等唔到,即係個警員可能都等唔到我哋接通,會有另外一個方 10 法,就係用頭先所謂fax 嘅方法。 11 杜淦堃資深大律師:根據你哋嘅(English Spoken),根據你哋嘅程序,其實個警員係 12 唔係應該等到你哋接聽,講番有關嘅訊息畀你哋聽? 13 黃思律先生:我哋冇就係警員佢哋嗰個做法有任何嘅程序指引。 14 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係呢個只係你見到其中一個有發生過嘅做法,呢個唔係你哋指引裏面 15 嘅做法? 16 黃思律先生:係,冇錯,唔係。 17 杜淦堃資深大律師:其實指引嘅做法,佢係應該send 張fax 畀你哋? 18 黃思律先生:冇呢個咁嘅指引。 19 杜淦堃資深大律師:都冇嘅? 20 黃思律先生:冇嘅,其實我哋本身建立嗰個機制係冇話一個--即係我唔知道(English 21 Spoken )嗰邊佢哋有冇咁嘅指引,但係我哋冇一個指引規定(English 22 Spoken)去點樣做嘢,我哋只有一個指引就係規定咗我哋同事可以點樣收。 23 杜淦堃資深大律師:換句話講,即係其實冇一個你哋同警方雙方都係同意嘅機制,就係話如 24 果有人打去警方度求助同火警有關,佢哋應該點樣將嗰個訊息交畀消防? 25 黃思律先生:唔同意。 26 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁個指引其實係咩嘢? 27 黃思律先生:頭先大狀你所指嘅係有冇一個指引,即係我嘅理解就係一個(English 28 Spoken)寫低嘅嘢,我哋冇嘅。但係我哋平時䭅機制就係頭先所講,第一,就係 29 頭先佢可以用電話將啲咁嘅(English Spoken)畀我哋,電話可以係佢繼續等 30 到我哋接聽為止,又或者佢可能--我哋另外其實都有啲其他嘅電話線,佢可能透過 31 其他電話線通知我哋亦都得。如果佢唔係,佢係用fax 嘅形式,我哋亦都會收。 32 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢個我諗唔係一個批評。 33 黃思律先生:係。 34 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係當然如果前線嘅同事係冇學你咁講,黑字白紙同佢講應該點做,咁 35 個問題就係會引申咗好多唔同嘅做法出嚟。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十二天

20 本謄本由Epiq 編製 黃思律先生:明白。 1 杜淦堃資深大律師:當然,有啲做法可能係隨機應變係好,但係喺呢件事件裏面我哋睇到真 2 係好多電話係等唔到駁去畀消防。 3 黃思律先生:明白。 4 杜淦堃資深大律師:喺警察嗰度就斷咗,如果冇一個可能係大家都同意黑字白紙嘅機制,呢 5 一個可能亦都令到前線同事做嘢係冇一個可以好系統性咁去跟進。 6 黃思律先生:或者咁樣講,好唔好?即係當然所有嘢都有一個白紙黑字嘅(English 7 Spoken)係最好,但係好多時我哋嘅動作,即係譬如話我哋呢一班嘅同事入職嘅 8 時間,佢就已經係通訊及調派嘅同事,喺佢哋入職訓練嘅時候,我哋亦都有同警察 9 佢哋嗰個(English Spoken)有緊密嘅聯繫,我哋嘅同事受訓嘅時候亦都會有 10 去佢哋嘅地方,知道佢哋嘅運作係點。當中亦都有一啲(English Spoken), 11 我哋冇可能--即係唔可以咁講,即係如果今日你話可唔可以寫番低,可以寫番低, 12 但係係唔係要就住每一個動作都要寫番低,我哋當其時覺得呢一樣嘢係本身佢哋入 13 職之後就要有嘅技能,兩個(English Spoken)互相溝通。 14 陸啟康法官:但係可唔可以咁樣問?其實你個機,即係我諗唔係批評。即係其實我諗大部分 15 嘅時間其實消防都可以處理晒所有嘅call 係唔會有延誤嘅,但係今次就真係出咗 16 個事件出嚟,其實係有少少個樽頸喺度,其實係唔係應該有一個消晰啲嘅機制,如 17 果真係去到警察但係去唔到消防,咁嘅情況應該點處理? 18 黃思律先生:同意,我哋就住呢樣嘢一定會再同警方去聯繫番,睇下點樣喺雙方都可以做好 19 少少。 20 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白。即係當然呢個有日關嘅溝通可能有啲行之有效嘅方法,不嬲都冇 21 事,但係如果我哋要面對大型災難,有好多人同時打電話嘅時候,其實嗰個我哋探 22 討緊要處理嘅情況可能亦都唔係一啲好複雜嘅情況,只不過係警方收到資料,消防 23 冇聽過電話,我哋點樣遞交啲資料畀佢哋,而令到警方畀消防嘅資料係最快可以令 24 你哋注意到。如果總括嚟講,聽你咁講,而家可能係靠大家一啲嘅習慣或者一啲嘅 25 默契,但係就冇一個機制話應該點樣去做,咁呢一個係你哋考慮嘅地方,可唔可以 26 咁講? 27 黃思律先生:會,我哋更加會完善嗰個機制添。 28 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白。跟住我想同你探討就係我哋之前聽到,你哋收到個電話其實完全 29 係靠警方駁畀你哋嘅,有時我哋會留意到有啲佢哋講咗畀警方嗰個訊息係冇轉達畀 30 消防,或者亦都會有出入嘅,即係佢講咗啲嘢畀警察知嘅事,佢之後驚或者亂,就 31 唔記得講番畀消防聽。我哋知道其實係有啲指引去處理呢啲事情。如果睇 32 WS2/1144 頁,呢個都係警方嘅指引,我明白你未必可能係完全解答到晒,但係我 33 相信呢啲嘅指引係應該會同消防有溝通,因為第 3 嗰度係“ (English 34 Spoken)",你哋知道佢哋嘅指引係點嘅,係咪? 35 黃思律先生:唔係全部都知道。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十二天

21 本謄本由Epiq 編製 杜淦堃資深大律師:就呢一個指引,你有冇見過之前? 1 黃思律先生:我之前冇見過。 2 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁呢個--就警方畀佢哋處理999 電話嘅同事同消防有關嘅指引,似乎 3 呢方面係冇同你哋溝通過或者冇將佢最終嘅指引畀你哋睇過,可唔可以咁講? 4 黃思律先生:唔可以咁講,因為我本人冇睇過。 5 杜淦堃資深大律師:可能有同事睇過? 6 黃思律先生:可能有同事睇過。 7 杜淦堃資深大律師:得,okay。我哋如果睇番上少少,第4 段嗰度講到如果有一個大火 8 “ (English Spoken )",你睇得明當然。跟住佢話“ (English 9 Spoken)",第4 段呢個做法你而家睇到,係咪? 10 黃思律先生:係。 11 杜淦堃資深大律師:你知唔知道警方其實個做法係咁?即係換句話講,如果嗰個接線生就收 12 到一個電話,其實係已經知道有人報咗消防或者報咗警,呢度有場場火,咁佢就會 13 問佢,佢就要先睇下佢有冇相關嘅資料關於可能受害人嘅情況去提供。例如呢度話 14 「係唔係有個人喺個火場度被困?你係唔係喺對面嘅樓宇見到啲人被果?」跟住佢 15 就話如果係嘅話就會將個call 交畀你哋,但係如果佢淨係話有個事件,佢覺得冇 16 其他有甪嘅資料,佢哋就會多謝嗰個求助者,跟住就會收線。你知唔知呢個係佢哋 17 嘅做法? 18 黃思律先生:我知道。 19 杜淦堃資深大律師:所以其實警方嗰方面,佢哋嘅接線生其實佢哋係會去決定,第一,報案 20 人嗰個事情係唔係已經處理緊,應唔應該接駁去畀消防,如果真係有佢哋覺得有用 21 嘅資料,咁呢個佢哋會交畀你,如果佢覺得冇就會終止? 22 黃思律先生:係。 23 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係如果我哋照字面去睇呢個做法,我想睇下你都會唔會有其他嘅諗 24 法。因為雖然報案嘅人提供嘅資料可能同個受害者係無關,但係對於消防處嘅工作 25 可能佢會有一啲有用嘅資料。我畀個例子,佢可能見唔到有一個人係被困火場,但 26 係佢打去講到個火勢,譬如嗰呢個case ,佢講到個火由一棟樓宇已經去到第二 27 棟,呢個資料其實對消防係有幫助嘅,可唔可以咁講? 28 黃思律先生:如果用呢個例子,係。 29 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係根據現行嘅指引,似乎除咗嗰個比較狹窄嘅情況,我哋呢度到即係 30 有關於可能有人係會被困或者有人有好大嘅危險,似乎佢就會終止咗嗰個對話,而 31 有關火場嘅資料係交唔到去消防嗰一面,你覺得呢個做法或者有冇商榷嘅空間?譬 32 如我哋宏福苑呢個例子,我哋就係見到有啲人打去就講咗話邊棟樓宇已經著火,而 33 佢掌握嘅資料可能係早過消防嘅同事? 34 黃思律先生:或者咁樣講,因為呢個啱啱你畀我先至睇到,但係頭先點解我講話我知道佢哋 35 有個咁嘅做法,因為我以前嘅經驗,我都聽好多帶,我都知道其實(English 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十二天

22 本謄本由Epiq 編製 Spoken)嘅同事都會有咁嘅做法,如果真係無論無關,即係佢淨係純粹報咗個個 1 火警,而我哋有同事去現場,亦都冇一啲比較(English Spoken),佢可能就 2 會終止個對話。但係我亦都有聽過一個例子,係有(English Spoken )嘅同 3 事,即使唔係關嗰個有(English Spoken),可能講緊一啲頭先好似大狀你所 4 講嘅(English Spoken)一啲訊息,都有試過係傳遞畀我哋。 5 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係如果佢係咁講嘅話,根據有關規則嘅或者佢哋自己嘅黑字白紙嘅做 6 法係有出入好似會? 7 黃思律先生:似乎係。 8 杜淦堃資深大律師:所以我想同你探討嘅就其實係唔係應該有啲機制,去令到打嚟求助者有 9 用嘅消息係有效地去到消防處嗰度呢? 10 黃思律先生:可以繼續咁樣做。 11 杜淦堃資深大律師:而似乎睇而家嘅守則,就可能有個缺口嗰度,係咪? 12 黃思律先生:有改善嘅空間。 13 陸啟康法官:寫得太死嘞呵? 14 黃思律先生:係。 15 杜淦堃資深大律師:另外一樣嘢可能會有一個問題,就係如果用而家呢個守則佢哋跟住去 16 做,其實去決定個資料有冇用嘅人完全係喺警方嗰面,係咪? 17 黃思律先生:睇呢個守則係,冇錯,我亦都會同意。 18 杜淦堃資深大律師:而但係其實可唔可以咁講呢?去判斷關於一場火警,打嚟求助人嘅資料 19 有冇用,最好去做呢個決定嘅人可能係消防嘅同事? 20 黃思律先生:如果我講得準確啲係現場嘅總指揮添。 21 杜淦堃資深大律師:當然,但係現場嘅總指揮冇可能就喺度聽電話,所以其實消防嘅同事能 22 夠掌握到打嚟求助者關於當時嗰個情況係好緊要嘅? 23 黃思律先生:係。 24 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁我相信呢一個黑字白紙嘅機制,我聽你講其實好多時就唔係跟到足 25 嘅,因為聽電話嘅人如果講俗少少可能都會「執生」,係咪? 26 黃思律先生:冇錯。 27 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係似乎個機制上高就好似主席咁講,就寫死咗佢應該做嘅嘢? 28 黃思律先生:係。 29 陸啟康法官:冇辦法,律師係咬文嚼字嘅,但係其實我諗即係好多時--不過我諗無論點都 30 好,我相信你今朝完咗之後,即係你都會真係檢討下呢一套機制,其實同埋同警方 31 真係坐埋一齊,真係遇到一啲估唔到嘅嘅事情真係我哋睇下點樣可以處理更加好。 32 黃思律先生:明白,主席。 33 杜淦堃資深大律師:或者換句說話咁講,我明白你嘅意思,我哋唔係挑剔嗰個字眼或者喺度 34 捉字虱,我哋無意咁做,但係我相信你亦都同意,其實黑字白紙寫低嗰個有關嘅機 35 制其實係相當重要嘅。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十二天

23 本謄本由Epiq 編製 黃思律先生:同意。 1 杜淦堃資深大律師:如果嗰個機制係令到有啲資料唔能夠去到消防嗰一度,例如我哋呢一個 2 個案真係見到有啲關於火警嘅資料如果跟機制會去唔到消防,呢個對你哋嘅工作都 3 唔會最理想,可唔可以咁講? 4 黃思律先生:同意。 5 陸啟康法官:即係一般嚟講係好啱嘅,一般嚟講去重複就真係會阻咗嗰個時間。 6 杜淦堃資深大律師:或者我哋喺休息之前,我哋聽多一個例子,等你幫一幫我哋。呢個係 7 C6/2463,呢個係晏晝3 點06 分收到嘅電話。 8 (播放錄音) 9 [男聲:999 報案中心。 10 女聲:喂,宏福苑呀,宏昌閣呢度有好大煙,我門口走入嚟,唔知點解火燭呀,而家樓梯口 11 冇--睇唔到啲燈呀。 12 男聲:消防已經到咗場灌救緊㗎嘞,你有冇即時危險?需唔需要消防帶你走嗰啲㗎? 13 女聲:我而家喺廁所呀,我出唔到去,太多煙呀。 14 男聲:咁你需唔需要消防幫手呀?因為就應該係1 樓燒咗棚架嗰啲嘅。 15 女聲:棚架嗰啲係1 樓? 16 男聲:係呀,已經--消防已經到咗。 17 女聲:我唔知,我啱啱瞓醒覺,睇到好煙,...(聽不清) 18 男聲:...(聽不清)你直接答我,你需唔需駁去消防,搵消防帶你走?你而家係唔係... 19 女聲:哦。 20 男聲:係唔係要消防... 21 女聲:我而家喺廁所呀,佢好多煙攻入嚟呀。 22 男聲:唔係呀,你答我喇,你需唔需要呀? 23 女聲:我而家出唔到嚟呀。 24 男聲:點解出唔到嚟呢?你喺廁所咋嘛。 25 女聲:係呀。 26 男聲:係喇。 27 女聲:我而家喺廁所,我門口嗰度太多煙,又黑晒睇唔到呀。 28 男聲:你住緊幾樓㗎? 29 女聲:我而家喺17 樓囉。 30 男聲:17 樓,咁你需唔需要消防過嚟吖? 31 女聲:佢--佢而家唔係救緊咩? 32 男聲:係呀,佢救緊㗎嘞。 33 女聲:哦,嗰度係1 樓啲棚架著火? 34 男聲:係呀。 35 女聲:哦,咁我閂晒啲窗,我而家喺廁所,...(聽不清) 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十二天

24 本謄本由Epiq 編製 男聲:你有需要你再打嚟喇咁樣,好唔好? 1 女聲:好,好,唔該。 2 男聲:好,拜拜。 3 女聲:拜拜。] 4 (錄音播放完畢) 5 杜淦堃資深大律師:我諗我哋首先撇開呢個電話嘅內容,講番呢個似乎係一個999 警方嗰面 6 聽到嘅電話嚟嘅,呢個就冇接駁過去畀消防嘅直頭。 7 黃思律先生:唔。 8 杜淦堃資深大律師:而家當然我哋事後可以多啲時間分析有關嘅情況,佢似乎個警員都講咗 9 係1 樓個棚架著火,佢都知道。 10 黃思律先生:係。 11 杜淦堃資深大律師:而呢位女士係喺17 樓,所以當時應該係燒到上17 樓都有煙,聽番呢個 12 電話。佢唔將呢個電話接駁去畀消防,其實係唔係同你哋嘅守則或者你哋對於佢哋 13 守則嘅理解係有啲違背? 14 黃思律先生:首先我本人冇睇過個守則,我純粹用番我自己工作嘅經驗,我自己個睇法,我 15 覺得唔應該咁,應該要轉駁畀我哋。 16 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,佢應該第一時間,因為呢位女士話基本上佢喺個火警當中,而警員 17 知道有火警。咁呢個電話我諗我哋用嚟做一個例子,其實聽到有好幾個問題,第 18 一,其實佢唔應該問呢位女士需唔需要接駁去消防,呢個決定唔係應該求助者去做 19 嘅,可唔可以咁講? 20 黃思律先生:要視乎情況,因為點解... 21 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋講番呢個情況。 22 黃思律先生:淨係呢個情況,佢可以更加做得好,就係直接...(聽不清) 23 杜淦堃資深大律師:或者我哋精準咁去講,其實根據你理解嘅任何守則,警方嗰面聽到呢個 24 電話有一個人喺個火警當中,正如你所講第一時間應該駁畀消防? 25 黃思律先生:係。 26 杜淦堃資深大律師:其實唔使應該再討論大唔大煙,走唔走到? 27 黃思律先生:冇錯。 28 杜淦堃資深大律師:第二件事就係你亦都會同意,其實求助人佢自己有幾危險,有時佢都唔 29 知道嘅? 30 黃思律先生:同意。 31 杜淦堃資深大律師:所以你問佢你個情況危唔危險,其實亦都唔係應該做嘅一件事? 32 黃思律先生:冇錯。 33 杜淦堃資深大律師:第三,亦都喺你哋嘅守則之下,嗰個警員當然就冇畀任何指引話佢應該 34 點做,但係個原因係唔係都係其實呢個工作佢第一時間畀消防嘅同事,消防同事嘅 35 訓練可能會幫到呢位求助者話畀佢知佢當時應該點去保護自己,可唔可以咁講? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十二天

25 本謄本由Epiq 編製 黃思律先生:同意。 1 杜淦堃資深大律師:我明白唔應該經常出現呢啲情況,但係我諗呢啲情況會反映到當時同事 2 可能面對壓力嘅時候,可能會有呢個情況出現。而呢個電話我相信你亦都同意,就 3 我頭先同你探討嘅問題都有多過一個喺裏面,而個做法係絶對係唔啱同唔理想嘅? 4 黃思律先生:以我嘅經驗,以往係冇聽過啲咁嘅情況。如果就住呢一個個案,我覺得係唔應 5 該係咁。 6 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋陣間稍候時間再探討下喺個機制上高有冇嘢可以杜絕呢一個情況。 7 但係好不幸地--即係當然如果呢個電話駁到去消防,我哋唔知道之後會發生咩嘢 8 事,但係不幸地個求助者係救唔到喺呢個情況,咁所以我哋見到呢個唔理想嘅情 9 況,我相信你亦都明白係驅使我哋會去探討制度上高係應唔應該有改善。 10 黃思律先生:明白。 11 杜淦堃資深大律師:或者呢個係一個合適嘅時候,主席。 12 陸啟康法官:十分鐘夠.係咪?十分鐘,我哋休息十分鐘。 13

14 11 時18 分聆訊押後 15 11 時28 分聆訊恢復 16

17 陸啟康法官:請繼續吖。 18 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,黃Sir,我哋探討緊嘅其實就係你哋現有嘅機制遇到嘅挑戰喇,即 19 係尤其是警方同消防之間就處理呢啲電話嗰個溝通,我喺聽下一個電話之前,當 20 然,即係我哋聽最後嗰個錄音比較沉重,但係我都想講有好多我哋聽到嘅電話,其 21 實同事係好有效咁樣樣,或者好快咁樣將有關信息轉達。但係我希望你都明白如果 22 我哋要檢討機制上高有冇改善嘅空間,難免我哋要去睇或者去聽一啲可能做得唔係 23 咁好嘅個案去分析。 24 黃思律先生:明白。 25 杜淦堃資深大律師:另外一個例子其實係另外一位市民,佢喺晚上9 點22 分打999 嘅。我 26 哋聽一聽呢一個。 27 (播放錄音) 28 [男聲一:999 報案中心,喂。 29 男聲二:係,我姓林嘅,咁有個被困呢,有個老人家被困喺大埔呢個宏盛樓2802,咁佢急 30 需救援嘅,咁係佢本身有哮喘嘅。 31 男聲一:請等等呀,宏盛樓2802。 32 男聲二:係,2802。 33 男聲一:佢嗰度幾多個人呀? 34 男聲二:喂,係,聽唔到,嗄。 35 男聲一:佢嗰個單位有幾多個人呀? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十二天

26 本謄本由Epiq 編製 男聲二:誒我唔清楚,因為有個我--我--我學校老師呀,有個學生話佢阿爺呢被困,咁呀有 1 哮喘嘅,嗄,咁佢裏面應該得番爺爺喺裏面啫。 2 男聲一:佢自己有冇報到呀? 3 男聲二:佢自己應該冇報㗎。 4 男聲一:係呀? 5 男聲二:嗄。 6 男聲一:哦,好呀,哦,得,我幫你通知,bye bye。 7 男聲二:你--你幫我通知消防吖,唔該你,okay。 8 男聲一:嗄,好呀,好,bye bye。 9 男聲二:好,得。] 10 (錄音播放完畢) 11 杜淦堃資深大律師:或者呢度你幫一幫我先,講番頭先我哋探討過嘅問題,你嘅理解如果有 12 個咁嘅電話,其實呢位警方嘅同事係咪應該第一時間駁去消防? 13 黃思律先生:兩睇,其實佢駁畀消防我哋一定會聽,亦都係最穩陣嘅做法。 14 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係我諗呢個就係有兩睇呢個答案就有一個問題,其實指引係咪應該有 15 幾清晰嘅界定幾時駁畀消防,幾時佢哋處理呢? 16 黃思律先生:同樣地,即係police 嘅指引我真係唔係一個啱position 去comment。 17 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白。 18 黃思律先生:咁但係... 19 杜淦堃資深大律師:就你哋個立場,你哋覺得應唔應該,如果我哋向前看,有個咁嘅電話其 20 實係咪應該第一時間駁畀你哋,唔係佢自己去處理? 21 黃思律先生:我覺得應該駁畀我哋。 22 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔。 23 黃思律先生:咁我亦都想講下,點解我覺得佢應該要駁畀我哋。 24 杜淦堃資深大律師:係。 25 黃思律先生:因為頭先都講,如果佢將呢一啲咁嘅資料要轉達畀我哋嘅話,譬如話佢原來係 26 有哮喘或者佢有其他情況呢,似乎難於即係用一個即係電話轉達或者頭先我都講 27 喇,用傳真嘅方法。所以最直接嘅方法就係即係駁畀我哋,等我哋直接聽,咁係最 28 理想。 29 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係所以因為到最後,其實應該係頭先佢畀嘅資料同你哋救火救人可能 30 係有關係嘅? 31 黃思律先生:有機會有關係。 32 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,所以睇番而家嘅機制其實佢都係應該駁畀你哋。 33 黃思律先生:我嘅睇法係應該。 34 杜淦堃資深大律師:係嘞,佢話佢會通知消防,我都想再進一步探討你哋之間嗰個溝通點畀 35 消息你哋?因為我哋查到消防嘅求助記錄,喺B10/5541 頁,我哋見到呢啲係求助 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十二天

27 本謄本由Epiq 編製 個案嘅記錄嚟㗎,呢個係消防處嘅文件,係咪? 1 黃思律先生:係,冇錯。 2 杜淦堃資深大律師:如果我哋睇FSA-184,或者放大少少,落啲,我哋見到似乎係有呢個記 3 錄嘅,你見到宏盛2802 呢一個,如果我哋睇上高個(English Spoken),你 4 就會知道,縮番細,你就知道每一項講緊係啲乜嘢嘞。你會見到--或者將佢zoom 5 去上高,係嘞。其實下低表示邊就係講咗邊棟樓、個位置、男女、有冇小朋友,或 6 者係唔知道個性別、動物,跟住講咗話日期同時間係就係“ (English 7 Spoken)”,即係消防處第一次收到求助電話嘅日期同埋時間,點樣去收到個信 8 息嘞,“(English Spoken)”,跟住之後有講到(English Spoken), 9 即係邊個去處理喇,係咪?第一個去處理。 10 黃思律先生:係。 11 杜淦堃資深大律師:然之後就係我哋見到大約嘅日期或者時間,呢度講(English 12 Spoken)即係幾時真係處理到。 13 黃思律先生:係。 14 杜淦堃資深大律師:最屘有remark,我哋落番184,我哋睇番嗰個時間係22:09,你哋第 15 一次--唔係,sorry,係22:11,即係大概嗰個電話聽完五十分鐘之後,你哋先 16 收到相關嘅信息,而你見到隔籬係寫住個收集途徑係(English Spoken),呢 17 個係咪代表其實係現場先知道? 18 黃思律先生:現場收到,如果根據呢度個文字個記錄應該係現場收到,我哋現場其實當其時 19 高派咗三部嘅流動指揮車喺現場,亦都有市民係現場同我哋報案嘅。 20 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋睇到有嗰個有嘅證據呢,第一,就似乎就唔係因為嗰個電話,之後 21 你哋係被警方轉介呢個個案,或者好以你頭先講收到張Fax,似乎唔係咁,係似乎 22 在場有另外一個途徑係pick up 到或者接收到呢個單位有人要求助,咁講啱唔啱 23 呀? 24 黃思律先生:根據呢個記錄,唔係,冇錯。 25 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係呢個記錄--似乎跟番呢個記錄就唔係頭先嘅嗰個電話令到有關嘅資 26 料從警方去消防嗰度? 27 黃思律先生:但係我想要補充一下,就係我哋即係做呢個記錄嘅時候有機會我哋從多方嘅途 28 徑去收到同一個求助,我哋就唔會喺一度(English Spoken)咁樣全部list 29 出嚟,有機會會係咁。 30 杜淦堃資深大律師:我明白。有機會會係咁,即係當然我哋都係猜度喇。但係個問題就係, 31 呢度話第一次收到嗰個求助嘅時間,呢個應該係唔會錯嘅,... 32 黃思律先生:係。 33 杜淦堃資深大律師:...因為duplicate 嗰啲都係寫第二個啫。 34 黃思律先生:即係通常我哋會寫最早收到。 35 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係換句話,講完嗰個電話之後嗰五十分鐘,你哋都係冇收過呢個求助 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十二天

28 本謄本由Epiq 編製 嘅記錄?如果呢個記錄準確嘅話。 1 黃思律先生:唔可以咁講,只不過可能我哋喺中間(English Spoken),即係頭先我講 2 喇,如果重複收嘅話,我哋就會用最先收到嗰一個record。 3 杜淦堃資深大律師:所以我咪--正正我就係想講呢一點囉,如果睇番呢個record,你第一 4 次收到就應該係22:11 喺現場收到,係咪? 5 黃思律先生:係。 6 杜淦堃資深大律師:頭先嗰個電話我哋聽嘅係9 點22 分嘅,即係換句話講,喺嗰個電話之 7 後嗰五十分鐘,似乎冇記錄係呢啲信息去到消防嗰度? 8 黃思律先生:似乎係。 9 杜淦堃資深大律師:係嘞,當然,有好多複雜嘅理由,當日你處理緊大量嘅求助個案,我哋 10 明白嘅。但係似乎喺報案同消防中間嗰個溝通,我哋就咁睇落去好似係有啲改善嘅 11 空間? 12 黃思律先生:有。 13 杜淦堃資深大律師:當然喇,我哋頭先呢個電話亦都顯示咗一系列嘅問題。如果佢就咁駁咗 14 畀消防嘅話,我相信喺個記錄嗰度就唔會係五十分鐘之後(English Spoken) 15 知道,你就會記錄--應該係會記錄咗喺9:22 分稍後嘅時間,由警方轉介咗一個電 16 話過嚟? 17 黃思律先生:冇錯。 18 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想同你探討嘅話題係咁嘅,我希望--我想同你探討,我希望你明白如 19 果我哋就咁當中搵一啲個案出嚟,你哋可能會覺得喺今次咁大型嘅災難裏面,我哋 20 係咪雞蛋裏挑骨頭,即係呢個唔係個用意,我想強調多一次,亦都要對你哋嘅同事 21 公平,係好困難嘅嗰一日,但係我哋譬如睇番呢個個案,係真係救到呢一位求助者 22 嘅,喺凌晨4 點30 分,雖然佢最後都因為個傷勢係罹難,但係講緊我哋救火救 23 人,因為每一個電話都可能好緊要。雖然個機制唔可以完美,但係我哋都要諗下點 24 樣去優化佢。我哋睇咗頭先嗰幾個問題,我都想問下你有冇考慮過,吸取呢次經 25 驗,我哋係咪有第二啲方法去處理呢?例如其實而家我哋知道999 求助電話嘅警方 26 指揮同控制中心,同你哋消防嘅通訊中心,基本上係兩個機構,而係靠呢兩個機構 27 緊密溝通嘅,大火嘅時候,可唔可以咁講? 28 黃思律先生:同意。 29 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋頭先講咗機制可以優化。點樣去收同埋去轉介信息,其實係咪都可 30 以用一啲自動化啲嘅系統呢?例如如果求助者知道係報火警嘅,係咪可以畀佢直接 31 駁嚟你哋嗰度㗎,而唔使經過警方? 32 黃思律先生:因為火警通常都會牽涉到即係有一啲傷亡,其實police 都係有機會要去出 33 勤,我諗如果直接駁嚟嘅話呢,就未必係一個好嘅做法,或者諗一諗就係會唔會係 34 同一時間可以直接駁去兩邊,即係話唔需要經其中一個centre 再駁過畀我哋呢, 35 呢度我哋可以去探討嘅。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十二天

29 本謄本由Epiq 編製 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係每個做法都有利弊,即係同一時間駁去兩面又可能有一個問題,就 1 係可能同火警冇關嘅,即係點樣去做呢?呢個係你哋需要探討嘅地方。另外,有啲 2 世界上唔同嘅地方有不同嘅做法。 3 黃思律先生:係。 4 杜淦堃資深大律師:有啲地方係其實報火警係另外一個電話,我相信你哋都知道。 5 黃思律先生:知道。 6 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢個係咪你哋考慮過或者會考慮嘅做法? 7 黃思律先生:其實呢個本身就係一個政府大嘅政策嚟嘅,咁點解用一個電話就可以令到即係 8 啲緊急嘅人士可以打到,就係令到佢哋容易記。 9 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白。 10 黃思律先生:亦都容易去--即係唔使佢自己再分。其實頭先你見到個婆婆呢,佢聽到,「你 11 需唔需要求援?」佢自己都唔知,其實好多時callers 佢根本都唔知道究竟佢呢 12 個求助係要--佢要搵police 吖,甚至乎搵fire,甚至乎係有其他嘅即係緊急部 13 隊,佢根本上唔識分。所以其實當中頭先即係我哋都提過999 嘅同事可能有啲地方 14 可以改進,但係我覺得即係我哋一般嘅溝通,我哋其實覺得警察嘅同事幫咗我哋好 15 多。 16 杜淦堃資深大律師:我亦都同意大部分情況之下,其實我哋唔使處理呢啲問題。而大部分情 17 況之下可能過往嘅做法都係可以嘅。但係我諗我哋最少我哋聽到個案裏面,似乎對 18 前線同事或者第一個把關嘅警方嘅同事點去處理呢啲情況,嗰個培訓或者畀佢哋嘅 19 信息,似乎可能有一啲改善嘅空間,咁講同唔同意? 20 黃思律先生:同意。 21 杜淦堃資深大律師:至於點樣去做,我諗我哋大家都會明白,呢個唔係我哋可以畀到你哋嘅 22 專業意見,呢個係你哋要去探討嘅問題。 23 黃思律先生:係,冇錯,係。 24 杜淦堃資深大律師:因為你哋有前線嘅經驗。跟住落嚟,我想同你睇睇另外一個範疇,999 25 電話接駁到去你哋消防通訊中心,之後你哋點樣去做?我哋個了解呢,其實有三個 26 步驟:第一,你哋會嘗試去了解求助人嘅情況,會試下畀一啲建議佢哋。可唔可以 27 咁講? 28 黃思律先生:其實最簡單,我哋會問咗佢安唔安全先?因為呢個係我哋第一個concern 29 嘅,佢安唔安全。第二,就會問番佢一啲基本嘅資料,譬如話佢嘅性別、年齡,頭 30 先我亦都講,最緊要嗰兩個資料就係佢嘅電話、聯絡嘅方法即係,同埋佢身處嘅位 31 置,因為呢一啲就係畀我哋嘅前線消防員能夠準確搵到佢,救到佢嘅資料嚟。 32 杜淦堃資深大律師:有時你哋畀完呢啲建議佢哋,如果你哋覺得佢哋係需要消防員帶佢離開 33 嘅話,你哋會將呢啲資料再轉達畀前線嘅同事等佢哋去跟進? 34 黃思律先生:係,冇錯。 35 杜淦堃資深大律師:基本上你哋就應該唔會問佢「你需唔需要人嚟救你?」因為佢自己未必 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十二天

30 本謄本由Epiq 編製 講到,可唔可以咁講? 1 黃思律先生:係。 2 杜淦堃資深大律師:你哋亦都有一個機制喺今次我哋都見到係會有效嘅,你哋係會有個我哋 3 叫做“Callback mechanism”,即係過咗一段時間打番畀佢。 4 黃思律先生:一個回撥嘅機制。 5 杜淦堃資深大律師:係嘞,睇下佢個情況係點樣樣。我哋喺你嘅第二份證供嗰度講到,其實 6 系統而家係可以偵測到致電人嗰個地址嘅。 7 黃思律先生:係。 8 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋睇你4.8 段講咗,第二份口供嗰度,我都想你解一解釋畀大家聽, 9 呢個係咪手提同固網都做到,定係是但一個先做到? 10 黃思律先生:應該係固網電話先可以。 11 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁呢一個亦都嗰個成效同即係隨住時間嘅改變都可能係冇以前咁有效。 12 黃思律先生:冇錯。 13 杜淦堃資深大律師:因為人用電話嘅習慣都改咗。 14 黃思律先生:冇錯。 15 杜淦堃資深大律師:而家好多人可能係冇固網電話嘅屋企。 16 黃思律先生:係。 17 杜淦堃資深大律師:如果用固網電話,係因為知道嗰個電話號碼所以查得番個嗰地址,係 18 咪? 19 黃思律先生:係。 20 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白,其他嘅資料,譬如佢喺邊度呀,當時佢身邊嘅情況,呢個當然要 21 靠求助者嘅口述,係咪? 22 黃思律先生:係。 23 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋或者聽一聽一個求助嘅電話A2-9,呢個係N001 呢個,我哋頭先 24 play 過嘅,我哋重複play 番一次,因為我想等你知道我講緊邊一個? 25 (播放錄音) 26 [女聲:999。 27 男聲一:呢度係大埔廣福邨附近,有個地盤做緊大廈維修,跟住火燭呀個棚架。 28 女聲:先生,我即刻駁條線去消防處,貴姓呀先生? 29 男聲一:嗄,喂,呢個--呢個咩嘢屋苑呀?有冇人知呀? 30 女聲:貴姓呀?先生。 31 男聲一:宏福苑呀,...(聽不清) 32 (電話接駁鈴聲) 33 女聲:你係途經見到定係... 34 男聲一:拍片呀,拍片呀,而家--喂,拍片,拍片,而家火燭緊呀。 35 女聲:喂,先生呀,你係咪喺樓下望上去咋?係見到火警嘅。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十二天

31 本謄本由Epiq 編製 男聲二:...(聽不清) 1 男聲一:係呀,我揸車見到過望上去,係呀,係呀,係。 2 女聲:哦,揸車見到,有火警喎。 3 男聲二:聽唔到,聽唔到。 4 女聲:火警喺邊度發生? 5 男聲一:大埔--大埔和--大埔宏福苑,大廈外牆維修,棚架火燭。 6 男聲二:嗄,得,明白,宏福苑,啱唔啱?有冇話宏咩嘢閣呀? 7 男聲一:...(聽不清)誒聽唔到。 8 男聲二:宏咩嘢閣? 9 男聲一:唔知呀,我踩單車經過㗎咋。喂,宏咩嘢閣呀?喂,宏咩嘢閣呀?喂,有冇人知道 10 呢個咩嘢閣呀,喂? 11 男聲三:宏福--宏昌閣。 12 男聲一:宏昌閣呀。 13 男聲二:宏昌閣,得...(聽不清) 14 男聲一:喂,呢個咩嘢閣呀?喂,有冇人知道咩嘢地址呀?喂。 15 男聲二:聯絡電話。 16 男聲一:好大火呀,喂,快啲派人過嚟先喇。 17 男聲二:得嘞,我知道呀。啊,救護車出發咗宏昌閣吖嘛。你去到迴旋處...(聽不清) 18 男聲一:係咪宏昌閣呀?宏昌閣對出,快啲呀,好大火呀,喂。 19 男聲二:得呀,有呀,嚟緊。 20 女聲:你留個電話畀我哋吖。(嗶聲) 21 男聲一:喂,拍片,拍片,拍片。 22 女聲:喂,先生,唔使講拍片住,呢個佢係中層定低層定點樣呀呢個宏昌閣? 23 男聲一:低層,低層,低層,低層。 24 女聲:嚟緊㗎嘞,請... 25 男聲一:電梯槽,嗄。 26 女聲:好,知道,好,嚟緊。 27 男聲一:好,好,好。] 28 (錄音播放完畢) 29 杜淦堃資深大律師:黃Sir,我哋聽到同事其實有問佢喺宏福苑邊一座喇。 30 黃思律先生:係。 31 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢個相當重要喇,係高層定低層著火喇,知唔知道有冇人被困、有幾多 32 煙,即係呢啲嘢都可能係佢應該要知道嘅嘢,當然,嗰個情況之下冇時間同佢慢慢 33 探討。但係我相信你都會同意嘅,其實求助者打嚟提供嘅信息,對於你哋評估嗰個 34 火勢有幾嚴重係其中一個資料來源嚟嘅。 35 黃思律先生:冇錯。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十二天

32 本謄本由Epiq 編製 杜淦堃資深大律師:係嘞,即係你有其他嘅方法,亦都要靠在場嘅同事喇。 1 黃思律先生:係。 2 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係第一個--即係你哋可能知道第一次有信息就係靠求助者打嚟嘅。 3 黃思律先生:冇錯。 4 杜淦堃資深大律師:所以同樣喇,如果有住戶打嚟,正如你頭先所講我要救佢,準確咁講到 5 邊個單位、邊一座好緊要,因為你去錯就救唔到。 6 黃思律先生:係。 7 杜淦堃資深大律師:所以你第二份證供都提到,我都想你解一解畀大家聽,其實你哋都研究 8 一個新嘅系統可以容許接線員向求助者其實發出一啲SMS,可以等佢哋直接喺同 9 FSCC 同你哋分享嗰哋嗰個位置喇。 10 黃思律先生:係。 11 杜淦堃資深大律師:同埋用啲多媒體嘅內容去做嘅。你4.8.1 嗰度睇到。 12 黃思律先生:冇錯。 13 杜淦堃資深大律師:我都想你講一講,其實嗰個諗法同埋嗰個你哋而家就呢一方面做到嘅內 14 容係點? 15 黃思律先生:其實我哋希望即係而家好多市民都已經有手提電話,如果佢能夠可以透過我哋 16 send 一條link 畀佢,即係透過SMS send 一條link 畀佢,click 到,佢喺 17 願意share 嗰個位置,即係其實一click 落去,即係代表佢已經同意咗,就即時 18 將佢手機,佢可以定到位嘅位置話到畀我哋聽,咁我哋就變咗進一步我哋多個利器 19 可以搵到佢。但係其實亦都有佢本身嘅限制。因為我哋而家嘅GPS 又好或者係一啲 20 衛星系統都好。都唔能夠定位喺佢一個building 裏面,一個大廈裏面嘅邊一個位 21 置,淨係可以定到一個平面就係佢喺嗰座大廈嗰度。同埋仲有就係電話如果冇電。 22 杜淦堃資深大律師:當然喇。 23 黃思律先生:係呀,都會係即係有其他限制。但係呢個係我哋喺一個咁短嘅時間,因為我交 24 呢個證供時間都係即係發生咗唔耐喇,呢個係我哋其中一個諗到可以做到嘅方法 25 嚟。 26 杜淦堃資深大律師:另外,我想同你探討嘅就係我哋見到今次其實好有用嘅證據呢,就係好 27 多人--而家你知道其實廣大市民遇到好多事情佢哋都會第一件事攞部手機出嚟拍低 28 佢,呢個引申咗其他嘅問題。 29 黃思律先生:係。 30 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係就你哋工作而言,你見到頭先嗰個電話,第一件事啲就話「拍片, 31 拍片」,有冇考慮過其實點樣運用而家呢個情況呢?例如其實好多人第一時間拍低 32 咗個火勢,呢個你哋會唔會有辦法收到㗎? 33 黃思律先生:我哋而家都希望將呢啲咁嘅即係信息可以收集到,咁但係其實都有兩面嘅,呢 34 一個咁嘅情況,頭先亦都睇到就係收call 嘅時候佢哋會影響到,我哋其實唔希望 35 佢哋報案嘅時候會係同一分身去拍片,但係如果真係有市民佢拍咗片,佢亦都願意 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十二天

33 本謄本由Epiq 編製 即係讓--即係同我哋分享嘅話,我哋都會諗辦法睇下點樣一個平台呢,可以收集呢 1 啲咁嘅信息。 2 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係用番頭先嗰個個案,其實點解我哋想同你探討呢樣嘢呢?我哋知道 3 係起火較早嘅階段,而有個途人係見到初時嘅情況,而佢應該亦都係見到個火勢係 4 蔓延得好快,當然,我完全同意你嘅講法,如果你畀佢嘅指示唔清晰或者佢唔跟指 5 示做,佢掛住拍片,咁呢個對於佢報警或者去搵你哋求助遲咗,呢個係唔理想嘅。 6 黃思律先生:係。 7 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係佢報咗警之後,如果佢好快咁可以將當時嘅情況去發放畀你哋,相 8 信技術上高呢個係做到嘅,係咪? 9 黃思律先生:係。 10 杜淦堃資深大律師:而呢個你哋都會考慮,係咪? 11 黃思律先生:我哋會考慮。 12 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係打個比方,如果有人拍條片嚟喺呢個電話之後,你哋都見到燒得好 13 嚴重,你哋嗰個出勤嗰個規模或者裝備,或者點去部署可能都會有影響,係咪? 14 黃思律先生:有機會。 15 陸啟康法官:或者畀多個建議,睇下可唔可以有啲--即係雖然嗰個--你畀佢個嘅忠告,即係 16 應該點樣做,係好視乎情況嗰個情況,但係譬如有啲basic 嘅,即係一啲比較基 17 本嘅,點樣可以救佢或者自保,都可以通過呢個發布系統話畀佢聽,即係再重複一 18 次,即係可以咁樣做? 19 黃思律先生:即係例如教佢點樣逃生? 20 陸啟康法官:唔。 21 黃思律先生:我哋其實已經都有做緊。 22 陸啟康法官:即係可以send 個link 畀佢,佢可以睇得到咁樣? 23 黃思律先生:可以。 24 杜淦堃資深大律師:另外,我想同你探討嘅就係,有冇機制--其實你喺聽電話嘅同事佢去將 25 資料發放畀前線嘅同事,大家都同意呢個好緊要嘅,要救嘅人喺邊度喇、個火勢係 26 點樣樣,咁呢個我哋可以優化。調轉,在場嘅消息會唔會有機制係話番畀centre 27 裏面去聽電話嘅同事,我明白有一個時間上嘅困難,佢不停喺度聽電話,可能佢唔 28 會有時間去處理現場嘅信息,但係的的確確現場消息亦都會可能影響咗聽電話嘅人 29 點樣去處理求助者,我相信你明白我嘅講法,係咪? 30 黃思律先生:明白。 31 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想問下你而家嘅機制有冇做呢樣嘢同埋點做㗎? 32 黃思律先生:而家嘅機制係由我哋主要依賴就係我哋前線嘅指揮官或者各級嘅指揮人員向我 33 哋--如果我哋有調派到即係流動指揮車去現場,佢係用無線電將現時嘅情況用一啲 34 standard message 我哋叫做,即係一啲規範咗嘅一啲信息就話番畀哋嘅MCU 35 或者係FSCC 聽,佢哋就會將相關嘅資料入番落去電腦裏面。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十二天

34 本謄本由Epiq 編製 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係佢哋FSCC 嘅同事,應該喺螢光幕度睇到嘅。 1 黃思律先生:係,冇錯。 2 杜淦堃資深大律師:因為我諗我唔需要去播某些錄音,我哋見到有啲情況,譬如個火勢嘅蔓 3 延,由邊一棟去到邊一棟,有啲聽電話嘅同事呢,可能因為事情發展得比較快,佢 4 哋係唔知道嘅,因為佢哋--有啲電話我哋聽到佢係表示驚訝? 5 黃思律先生:有機會嘅。 6 杜淦堃資深大律師:係呀,但係據你所講其實不時應該有信息係傳番去畀FSCC 裏面嘅同 7 事,係咪? 8 黃思律先生:有嘅,不過呢度我都想講多少少。就係因為由於我哋現場嘅指揮,其實畀嗰個 9 standard message,都係一個比較籠統同埋一個整體化嘅一個發展趨勢,所以 10 如果你話好針對住每一個單位出面究竟係咩情況,其實都講唔得清楚。雖然我哋嘅 11 同事大概會掌握當其時整個火警嘅形勢,但係如果你話就住呢啲咁樣去好仔細畀到 12 每一個求助者話畀佢聽當期時應該走、唔走、做啲乜嘢呢,其實係做唔到。 13 杜淦堃資深大律師:或者我哋如果聽你咁講,我哋去聽一聽呢個電話N133。 14 (播放錄音) 15 [女聲:999,喂,999,喂。 16 男聲:係,宏福苑宏道閣呀,26 樓027 呀,著晒火呀,快啲搵人救火喇。 17 女聲:你而家係咪喺單位裏面出唔到嚟呀?先生。 18 男聲:我幾隻貓、有幾隻狗喺上面呀。 19 女聲:咁你而家係咪喺屋裏面呀? 20 男聲:我而家就唔喺屋裏面,你快啲帶人上去喇,有個老人...(聽不清)上面呀。 21 女聲:喂,先生。 22 男聲:係。 23 女聲:你等等,我駁去消防,你同佢講呀。(電話接駁聲)] 24 (錄音播放暫停) 25 杜淦堃資深大律師:停一停先,我想你知道嘅就係呢一個其實係喺下晝4 點38 分喺宏道閣 26 打出嚟嘅電話嚟,你留意時間同個地點。 27 (繼續播放錄音) 28 [男聲:(電話接駁聲)...(聽不清)] 29 杜淦堃資深大律師:可以跳到去3 分28 秒,兩分鐘開始,兩分鐘。 30 (繼續播放錄音) 31 [(電話接駁聲) 32 女聲二:消防...(聽不清) 33 女聲一,喂,喂。 34 男聲:係。 35 女聲一:你講吖,唔係呀,佢話喺火燭度呀。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十二天

35 本謄本由Epiq 編製 女聲二:哦,哦,你喺邊度呀? 1 男聲:宏道閣2602 呢度著晒火,快啲搵人救火喇。 2 女聲二:你等等,宏道閣?你又去到,點解會去到宏道閣嘅,喺宏昌閣㗎喎。 3 男聲:係呀,全部通晒,幾座樓一齊著火我都話。 4 女聲二:你而家喺宏道閣嘅2602,你係被困定係點樣呀? 5 男聲:我啲貓狗喺上面,咁我走咗出嚟嘞,應該我老婆都可能喺上面。 6 女聲二:你老婆個電話號碼幾多呀? 7 男聲:佢唔聽電話㗎,頭先打都冇人聽呀。 8 女聲二:咁有冇--單位有冇電話㗎,有冇住宅電話㗎? 9 男聲:單位冇住宅電話呀。 10 女聲二:咁佢個手機... 11 男聲:你快啲派--派人上去救火喇。 12 女聲二:先生呀,你睇唔睇--你如果喺現場,你有冇睇到幾百架消防車喺度嘞? 13 男聲:得一條喉呀出面。 14 女聲二:嗄,你睇到有好多架車喺度喇嘛,係咪?我哋救緊火㗎嘞,救火嗰啲你唔需要擔 15 心,而家我係問你老婆有冇被困,需唔需要我哋上去帶番佢落樓? 16 男聲:我就唔清楚喺唔喺上面? 17 女聲二:你又唔清楚,咁樣你喺邊度? 18 男聲:我而家喺油站對住嗰度吖。 19 女聲二:哦,即係你又就喺現場添,你就喺遠處望嘅係咪? 20 男聲:係嘞,係嘞。 21 女聲二:咁你太太幾多號電話呀?(嗶聲)佢貴姓㗎? 22 男聲:姓陳㗎。 23 女聲二:姓陳,幾多歲呀佢? 24 男聲:六十幾歲囉。 25 女聲二:六十幾歲,得,我打電話去畀佢,問--睇下佢而家個位置先。 26 男聲:唔,唔,係喇。 27 女聲二:咁你留喺安全位置喇,唔該你,拜拜。 28 男聲:唔。] 29 (錄音播放完畢) 30 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋知道最屘其實呢位報案人士佢個太太都係獲救嘅,即係最屘都係幫 31 到佢嘅。但係我哋睇番呢個記錄我哋知道幾樣嘢喇,當然,你頭先都解釋咗嘅,因 32 為其實你可能現場嘅情況已經好混亂,你冇辦法可能好緊貼咁講到畀FSCC 同事聽 33 嗰個情況,譬如呢個情況,佢唔知道另外嗰啲大廈已經著咗火。同埋其實4 點38 34 分,其實個火勢已經--我哋而家知道蔓延得好犀利,所以似乎喺在場(English 35 Spoken)同埋嗰個centre 裏面嗰個通訊呢,似乎係喺呢個例子裏面嚟講都有少 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十二天

36 本謄本由Epiq 編製 少改善嘅空間,可以幫到前--或者call centre 嘅同事點樣去幫到啲求救者, 1 會唔會同意? 2 黃思律先生:其實呢一度我諗我喺作供最初嘅時候我已經提咗,處長好早嘅時間已經注意到 3 有咁嘅情況。一般嚟講嘅火警我哋係良好溝通,但係今次真係完全即係喺呢個情況 4 之下,我哋嘅溝通係有少少問題,所以叫咗--達成咗我要即刻去到現場,去加強番 5 呢個工作。所以自我去咗現場之後,嗰個即係信息嘅溝通係好咗好多,但係當其時 6 呢個時間係4 點鐘,我未到現場。咁亦都我確實係承認係有啲咁嘅情況,我哋嘅坐 7 喺通訊中心嘅同事,佢真係唔能夠掌握到現場嘅情況。 8 杜淦堃資深大律師:因為啱啱呢個例子,其實我哋知道消防處其實通訊中心會理想地應該知 9 道晏晝3 點39 分其實已經蔓延到去宏道閣,佢呢個電話係4 點38 分。 10 黃思律先生:係,冇錯。 11 杜淦堃資深大律師:所以嗰個通訊嗰個延誤似乎喺呢件事上高係都個時間係唔短嘅,可唔可 12 以咁講? 13 黃思律先生:我唔覺得即係有--呢一度係有--即係點樣講?應該咁樣講,呢個同事佢唔知 14 道,佢係真係遲咗知道,但係嗰個信息其實就已經基本上傳達到去我哋嗰個通訊中 15 度,而當其時我哋都有通訊中心嘅同事係知道現場嘅情況,但係佢知唔知道實際上 16 係(English Spoken)去幾多棟,其實難於即係去理解。因為點解,你--即係 17 我都想講多少少畀大家聽,就係佢哋其實就係喺一個四面都係一個牆壁嘅空間,淨 18 係對住部電腦去做嘢嘅啫,佢聽--佢嘅消息來源就係電話,求助者嘅電話,同埋我 19 哋同事喺現場報番嚟嘅一啲(English Spoken),所以如果你要求佢一定好準 20 確知道現場嘅情況,唔會嘅,佢哋唔會咁樣可以知得到。 21 杜淦堃資深大律師:我諗我哋個講法,亦都我諗冇可能有任何人可以提出坐喺(English 22 Spoken)裏面嘅同事可以真係好精準咁知道晒現場嘅情況,我相信呢個唔係一個 23 合理嘅要求,因為佢唔喺現場。 24 黃思律先生:係。 25 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係譬如我哋見到呢個個案,其實如果我哋去番B10,我哋睇5515 26 頁。唔好意思,我諗我要搵番另外嗰頁畀你睇,5115 先。呢個係你哋關於你--我 27 相信你熟悉呢個文件,個事件嗰個(English Spoken)嘅。 28 黃思律先生:係。 29 杜淦堃資深大律師:你睇15 點39 分45 秒,呢個其實喺--FSCC 嘅同事佢喺個螢幕度係咪 30 應該睇到? 31 黃思律先生:我哋有好多個螢幕嘅,如果佢要睇嘅話,佢要特登開出嚟睇先得嘅,佢唔係即 32 時可以睇到。 33 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係換句話講,其實佢冇一個螢幕畀佢睇到現場嗰個火警一啲嘅信息? 34 黃思律先生:冇。 35 杜淦堃資深大律師:從而令到佢可以用呢一個信息嚟處理救助人嘅個案? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十二天

37 本謄本由Epiq 編製 黃思律先生:冇一個咁嘅信息,睇唔到。 1 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白。當然呢個我哋可以探討嘅問題,即係如果大家都同意,其實現場 2 嘅情況係會幫到喺(English Spoken)嘅同事點去處理一啲求助嘅個案,你覺 3 唔覺得其實應該係有更好嘅辦法,去咁去溝通? 4 黃思律先生:覺得,覺得。 5 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白。 6 黃思律先生:或者我都補充一下,其實喺我哋即係不斷地去研究新嘅科技嘅時候,我哋都希 7 望可以喺現場嗰個環境,尤其是影像,可以畀到我哋所有嘅同事,包括咗係我哋前 8 線嘅即係譬如話喺中心嘅同事,我哋嘅管理層都可以即時睇到,我哋研究緊嘅,其 9 實不斷都。 10 杜淦堃資深大律師:我諗我哋大家都睇到嗰個需要。我想同你再探討一下嘅就係,其實消防 11 係點樣去確認被困嘅人士需唔需要救援,同埋畀啲咩嘢意見佢。我想你睇一睇 12 B3/2699 頁,我哋之前睇過嗰個文件嘅,呢個係你哋嘅(English Spoken), 13 你可唔可以解一解畀大家聽,呢個係你哋消防指引? 14 黃思律先生:係,冇錯。 15 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁你見到2699 頁,呢度就基本上就係有啲指示,呢度咁講嘅,如果我 16 哋睇番第一段“(English Spoken)”(「派發就係適當嘅資源,取決於究竟 17 係有冇準確嘅資料」)大家都明,即係我哋頭先一路探討緊嘅資料要準確嘅問題。 18 “(English Spoken)”,即係呢個係--似乎係寫到佢一定要跟以下嘅問題咁 19 去問嘅,咁我哋大家都睇到嗰啲問題,同埋我相信都顯然易見係點解要問呢一啲問 20 題,係咪咁? 21 黃思律先生:係。 22 杜淦堃資深大律師:亦都--當然,你如果亦都用少少常識或者用佢嘅經驗,即係如果佢哋係 23 已經畀咗一啲嘅答案,你唔使跟呢個order 去問嘅? 24 黃思律先生:冇錯。 25 杜淦堃資深大律師:其實你係要收集呢啲嘅信息,係咪? 26 黃思律先生:冇錯。 27 杜淦堃資深大律師:而另外一份文件,我--喺你證人--第一份證人--第二份證人供詞4.3 28 段提過一個叫做“(English Spoken)”嘅,喺B3/2709,呢度有個--佢咁 29 寫嘅,叫做“ (English Spoken )” ,佢話“ (English Spoken )” 30 (「係取決於每一個個案係去畀意見,以下嘅部門指引就係用嚟做參考」),呢個 31 基本上就係畀同事嘅指引,你call back 嘅時候去點樣去問佢,係咪? 32 黃思律先生:係,冇錯。 33 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁我哋亦都睇--大家都可以睇到,其實點解要問呢啲咁嘅問題,其實都 34 好有邏輯同顯然易見,呢個係會幫到受災嘅人士點樣去保護自己,同埋幫助到救 35 援。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十二天

38 本謄本由Epiq 編製 黃思律先生:係。 1 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋譬如睇下(f)嗰度,我哋都睇到好多嘅居民都講過,其實佢哋都知 2 道,要帶逃生三寶,相信呢個係佢哋可能之前喺啲媒體度已經知道? 3 黃思律先生:冇錯。 4 杜淦堃資深大律師:或者有啲可能係你哋嘅同事話畀佢哋聽? 5 黃思律先生:係。 6 杜淦堃資深大律師:我諗我哋睇一睇嗰個程序係點,而我想你幫一幫我哋嘅,你見到呢度, 7 如果問咗佢係咪安全嘅時候,佢話如果安全,就叫你留低等救援,唔好離開,否則 8 會有危險,呢個係一貫嘅做法,係咪? 9 黃思律先生:我想指出就係其實呢一度我哋畀佢係一個參考,唔係叫佢逐句逐句講出嚟。所 10 以呢一度就最主要(a)嗰點係想問佢安唔安全,因為我哋最關心就係佢嘅安全,所 11 以我哋先問咗佢「你安唔安全先?」至於佢留唔留低,其實我哋之後都會睇下究竟 12 佢可唔可以走到。 13 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋當然明白啲指引唔可以盲目咁跟隨,即係但係當然個問題亦都係, 14 其實你打畀佢問佢安唔安全,可能佢都唔係好準確咁答到你。 15 黃思律先生:係。 16 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,咁當然,之後嗰啲似乎寫咗,你講到最緊要係睇下佢係咪安全,但 17 係之後嗰(a)之後嘅說話都係啱㗎嘛,係咪?如果佢安全嘅,就叫佢等待救援,唔 18 好貿然離開,否則會有危險。 19 黃思律先生:係,叫佢暫時唔好急住離開先,跟住就會叫佢睇一睇走廊有冇煙,或者樓梯有 20 冇煙,冇煙嘅話,就儘量去走落地下,因為喺任何嘅火警當中,我哋覺得最安全嘅 21 地方都係走到落地下、地面,所以我一定係會(English Spoken )佢走落地 22 下,可以嘅話。但係如果後面嗰啲就係,如果情況唔許可,走唔到,應該要點樣 23 做? 24 杜淦堃資深大律師:所以你哋嘅講法就係,我哋都見到好多例子,屋外好大煙,呢個case 25 裏面亦都有啲居民就係決定留番喺屋裏面,閂埋道門,濕毛巾封道門,呢啲係指定 26 動作。 27 黃思律先生:係。 28 杜淦堃資深大律師:跟住又講到去吸引人哋救你,露台或者窗口掛啲毛巾,用電筒,係咪? 29 黃思律先生:係。 30 杜淦堃資深大律師:四,就話如果冇煙就--你啱啱想講,就迅速離開單位,基本上嗰個意見 31 係走嘅? 32 黃思律先生:係。 33 杜淦堃資深大律師:第五就係爬,第(f)就係我哋頭先講嘅逃生三寶,係咪? 34 黃思律先生:係,冇錯。 35 杜淦堃資深大律師:你嘅證人供詞,頭先提到個4.3,有段第2 段,4.3.2,其實個指導原 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十二天

39 本謄本由Epiq 編製 則係唔想佢哋吸入濃煙嘅,因為大部分嘅情況之下,我哋見到其實好多人可能未必 1 係直接畀火焰去灼傷燒死,係吸入濃煙焗死? 2 黃思律先生:係,絕大部分都係。 3 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,所以有煙嘅時候就主導思想,有煙就留喺單位,冇煙就走? 4 黃思律先生:係。 5 杜淦堃資深大律師:我明嘅,呢個係一般嘅做法。似乎有啲同事畀居民嘅做法,同呢個係有 6 偏離嘅,當然,我哋可以理解唔可以刻板咁寫到死,但係我哋都聽過有啲嘅例子似 7 乎對於嗰個居民嚟講,都唔係畀到好多指示佢哋,或者畀到好多意見佢哋點樣去保 8 護自己。 9 我哋頭先嗰個例子,譬如N012 嗰個宏昌502 號單位,我哋見到其實--我諗 10 我唔想再播,因為其實即係大家都聽過,同埋其實我哋唔係好想聽--多次聽有關嘅 11 內容。但係我哋見到其實消防通訊中心其實冇問過佢哋外面有冇煙,同埋有冇辦法 12 離開單位嘅,我哋知道。呢個做法似乎應該係--如果聽你咁講,每一樣嘢嘅重要性 13 方面,呢個似乎偏離咗你哋畀同事嘅指示,係咪? 14 黃思律先生:唔係。 15 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔係。 16 黃思律先生:唔係,我諗我要解釋番嗰個--頭先即係嗰兩個文獻嘅理解。我可唔可以去番第 17 一個,就係我哋嘅(English Spoken),我哋個(English Spoken)。 18 杜淦堃資深大律師:好呀。 19 黃思律先生:(English Spoken),sorry。 20 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,喺2699。 21 黃思律先生:呢一度係一個收call 嘅程序嚟嘅,即係話如果有人報火警,或者佢報佢自己 22 係被困嘅話,我哋就會跟呢一啲咁嘅情況問佢一啲咁嘅相關嘅問題。我哋頭先睇得 23 到,即係我哋花咗好多時間,嗰個(English Spoken )嗰個係一個call 24 back 嘅時候嘅(English Spoken)嚟,所以我哋收call 嘅時間,我哋唔會 25 直接就講埋話畀佢聽「你應該當其時要點做」,所以我相信頭先嗰段錄音,係一個 26 收call 時間情況嚟。 27 杜淦堃資深大律師:我明你呢個講法,但係我想話,個問題係咪正正喺呢度?你收call 嘅 28 時候,我明白好需要儘快攞到我哋頭先睇到喺2699 嘅資料。 29 黃思律先生:係。 30 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係如果聽你咁講,你收call 嘅時候,你哋知道嗰個人被困,你係唔 31 會畀我哋見到(English Spoken)裏面嗰啲資料佢哋,即係叫佢哋點樣逃--點 32 樣去保護自己,點樣去離開,似乎指引上高係冇話你喺第一個電話應該咁做? 33 黃思律先生:冇一定要咁樣做,我哋同事--但係如果佢有懷疑,譬如話「我而家好大煙,應 34 該點?」我哋同事就會直接話畀佢聽,教佢點做。但係如果佢話「其實我都安 35 全」,「okay,咁你等等,我哋即刻搵同事上嚟搵你」,就會係咁樣做。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十二天

40 本謄本由Epiq 編製 杜淦堃資深大律師:我明白你所講,我畀你睇嗰兩份文件,第二份係個call back 嘅程 1 序。 2 黃思律先生:係。 3 杜淦堃資深大律師:Call back,因為你已經有咗你第一次要攞嘅資料,我相信個目的就 4 係睇下啲資料有冇更新,即係如果燒得犀利咗,或者佢有資料關於個火警,你要問 5 佢。第二個目的就似乎教佢點保護自己。 6 黃思律先生:係。 7 杜淦堃資深大律師:而你嘅講法就係,我亦都相當同意,其實你都要睇情況,你第一個電話 8 如果你覺得有需要,你都要教佢點做。 9 黃思律先生:係。 10 杜淦堃資深大律師:往往我哋睇,第一個電話,聽番謄本嘅時候,可唔可以咁講?如果見到 11 宏福苑呢個case,有啲居民其實已經係被困咗喺單位裏面嘅,其實聽電話嘅同事 12 其實係好應該睇番我哋call back(English Spoken)裏面所建議佢哋畀受 13 困者嗰啲意見,其實應該話畀佢哋知嘅,係咪? 14 黃思律先生:唔一定,要睇情況。我可以講番先,首先,(English Spoken)係近年我 15 哋先至有一個新嘅措施,就話會打番畀佢哋,話畀佢哋聽點樣做,同埋最緊要就 16 (English Spoken)番佢哋個位置有冇改變。因為宏福苑其實我哋都見到,有 17 好多即係居民其實佢係走咗去第二度,所以要不斷要打番畀佢。 18 但係其實喺我哋未出呢個(English Spoken )呢一個嘅(English 19 Spoken)之前,其實同事已經會畀一啲(English Spoken)畀啲求助者,只 20 不過我哋唔會將所有嘅(English Spoken )寫晒喺我哋嗰個(English 21 Spoken),你都可以留意就係而家呢個收call 呢一個係講緊係一個(English 22 Spoken),係咪?而嗰個call back 嗰個係一個(English Spoken)嘅, 23 點解嗰個係一個(English Spoken),因為仲係試緊,試行緊,有效嘅時候, 24 我哋覺得佢okay,我哋就會擺番落去呢個咁嘅(English Spoken)嗰度,咁唔 25 代表我哋同事唔會做。 26 杜淦堃資深大律師:我明。如果係咁,冇辦法,我諗我哋聽番一次012。 27 黃思律先生:好。 28 杜淦堃資深大律師:N012。 29 (播放錄音) 30 〔男聲一:喂,我--999,有咩嘢幫到你? 31 女聲一:喂,係,宏昌閣火燭呀,唔該。 32 男聲一:我哋接去消防。 33 女聲一:係。 34 (電話接駁鈴聲) 35 女聲二:點呀? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十二天

41 本謄本由Epiq 編製 女聲一:呢個我咁多嘢嘞,嗰--嗰邊個煙好犀利呀。 1 女聲二:...(聽不清)知唔知呀? 2 男聲一:你知唔知幾多樓發生㗎? 3 女聲一:誒而家發--火緊燭呀,我哋...(聽不清) 4 男聲一:你知唔知幾多樓發生㗎? 5 女聲一:誒樓下--樓下返嚟嘅。 6 男聲一:即係幾多樓呀? 7 女聲一:...(聽不清)嘅,係。 8 男聲一:幾多樓發生呀?知唔知呀? 9 女聲一:我哋唔知呀,我而家喺屋企呀。 10 男聲一:你自己安唔安全㗎? 11 女聲一:而家嗰啲煙呢出晒--入晒屋個囉喎。 12 男聲一:啲煙入屋,係咪呀? 13 女聲一:係呀。 14 男聲一:你自己姓咩嘢㗎? 15 女聲一:我係工人嘅,我同婆婆住嘅。 16 男聲一:哦,你自己電話係幾多㗎? 17 (嗶聲) 18 男聲一:你唔好收線住,你等救援員問清楚你現場嘅情況先。你嗰度係宏福苑宏昌閣吖嘛, 19 係咪呀? 20 女聲一:係,係,係。 21 男聲一:初步可以話畀你知呢,消防係趕緊過嚟嘅。 22 女聲一:係。 23 男聲一:不過你而家唔好收線住,你等消防員問清楚你先。 24 女聲一:係。 25 (電話接駁鈴聲) 26 女聲一:對方冇聽電話嘅。 27 女聲二:...(聽不清) 28 男聲二:消防...(聽不清)有咩嘢幫到你? 29 男聲一:個宏福苑嗰個fire。 30 男聲二:喂。 31 女聲一:喂,係。 32 男聲二:係,女士,有咩嘢幫到你? 33 女聲一:誒我哋火燭呀,呢度誒宏昌閣,宏福苑。 34 男聲二:係,嗱,女士,係咪宏昌閣嗰度有火燭呀,火警呀見到。 35 女聲一:係,係。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十二天

42 本謄本由Epiq 編製 男聲二:嗱,我哋救護車--我哋消防車已經嚟緊㗎嘞,嚟你宏昌閣嗰度,誒想問下你而家需 1 唔需要誒消防嚟帶你離開現場? 2 女聲一:我要呀,我哋同婆婆,我哋兩個人而家喺屋企。 3 男聲二:係咪即係你而家需要消防帶你--帶你離開,啱唔啱? 4 女聲一:係。 5 男聲二:係,你而家喺--喺邊個位置? 6 女聲一:誒502 室。 7 男聲二:502。 8 女聲一:係。 9 男聲二:502 單位,你裏面有幾多人呀? 10 (嗶聲) 11 男聲二:你裏--裏面有幾多人? 12 女聲一:我同婆婆。 13 男聲二:係,都係兩位女士,啱唔啱? 14 女聲一:係。 15 男聲二:嗄,想問下你幾多歲呀? 16 女聲一:我誒三十--39。 17 男聲二:39 歲女士,咁你另一個呢?另一個幾多歲? 18 女聲一:婆婆98 嘞。 19 男聲二:98 歲,想問下你而家係咪見到有煙、有火呀? 20 女聲一:...(聽不清)好大火嘅。 21 男聲二:喺邊--你而家有冇--有冇燒到落你哋度? 22 女聲一:𧶄啲就...(聽不清)嗰啲煙已經好黑--黑--黑晒㗎嘞。 23 男聲二:明白,咁你而家安唔安全㗎?女士。 24 女聲一:誒暫時就可以嘅。 25 男聲二:咁係咪都需要消防過嚟帶你離開? 26 女聲二:...(聽不清) 27 男聲二:你需唔需要--你需唔需要消防帶你離開現場? 28 女聲一:係要嘅,我都好驚呀,好驚。 29 男聲二:明白,嗱,放心呀,我哋會派消防上嚟搵你吖。 30 女聲一:係。 31 男聲二:好,唔該你。〕 32 (錄音播放完畢) 33 杜淦堃資深大律師:我明白即係唔係每一個call 都做到完美,但係我想同你探討嘅就係我 34 哋點畀指引聽電話嘅同事。我明-- 我哋睇番個(English Spoken )裏面嘅指 35 引,如果我哋睇番2709 頁,B3,我同意你嘅講法,呢個指引似乎係call back 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十二天

43 本謄本由Epiq 編製 嘅時候都應該做嘅,但係你同唔同意其實視乎個情況,有人打嚟求助,如果你知道 1 佢喺個火警裏面,其實第一個電話去提番佢「你應該點做」,而唔係等個之後 2 call back,其實都係好重要? 3 黃思律先生:如果係做得好嘅話,當然佢而家能夠掌--我要講就係,我哋個同事其實係要衡 4 量兩樣嘢嘅,第一就係我繼續同佢保持通話,畀更多嘅(English Spoken)佢 5 係好啲,定係我即時將呢個咁嘅資料話畀我哋前線嘅同事,馬上安排人上去救佢好 6 啲,佢係有個兩難喺度。 7 杜淦堃資深大律師:我明。 8 黃思律先生:所以當然,你話做到完美,我哋今日睇番個case,佢--個同事佢有好多地方 9 可以做得好啲,... 10 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白。 11 黃思律先生:...即時畀埋個(English Spoken)佢當然係最好,但係我哋亦都唔能夠 12 規定佢一定要講,因為如果一定要講嘅時候,佢就冇咗個彈性,將一啲基本嘅 13 (English Spoken)畀我哋同事,令到我哋前線同事可以即時上去救佢。 14 杜淦堃資深大律師:我完全明白你嗰個講法。我想問下你嘅就係,佢收到啲基本嘅資料嘅時 15 候,個聽電話嗰個人係點樣將呢啲資料畀個前線同事,佢係入落個系統度,係咪? 16 黃思律先生:佢係入落個系統度。 17 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係佢唔係打去口講,係咪? 18 黃思律先生:都要用口講嘅。因為其實而家佢入咗落去個系統裏面,佢仲需要用無線電直接 19 同我哋前線同事通話,話畀佢聽嗰個case,頭先講啲基本資料,尤其是位置,另 20 外佢仲會行一個機制,就係因為我哋講咗畀佢聽之後,你可以想像前線嘅消防員佢 21 聽完,佢未必記得㗎嘛,佢有另外一個機制就係用一個我哋叫做(English 22 Spoken),即係用我哋一個部門內部嘅即時通訊軟件。 23 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,即係如果我睇番啲紀錄,有啲似我哋用WhatsApp 嘅。 24 黃思律先生:係,冇錯。 25 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,但係就係你哋消防同事之間用嘅紀錄? 26 黃思律先生:係,就將呢啲資料就直接send 落去畀佢,佢哋可以用手機重複去再㨴番嚟 27 睇。而我哋現場亦都會--即係當我哋嘅流動指揮車到咗現場,我哋都會print 一 28 啲紙本嘅一啲資料,等佢哋各個嘅(English Spoken),即係救援嘅主管揸住 29 嚟到做嘢。所以其實我哋嘅通訊員係需要有機會要同我哋嘅前線直接通話。 30 杜淦堃資深大律師:換句話講,我相信我哋大家都同意,我哋要靠聽電話嗰個人嘅經驗,同 31 埋佢個判斷? 32 黃思律先生:係。 33 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係喺畀佢嘅指引裏面,似乎call back 裏面話要畀一啲意見,打電 34 話嚟-- 第一次打電話嚟求助嘅人裏面,呢個冇一個黑字白紙嘅規定話要畀呢啲 35 (English Spoken)佢嘅,但係你同我講話個習慣係有嘅,可唔可以咁講? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十二天

44 本謄本由Epiq 編製 黃思律先生:唔係習慣,係我哋唔會咁樣寫,到到今天如果你問我嘅話,我覺得都唔應該寫 1 死,因為點解,頭先都講,佢係要衡量嘅,佢如果呢一啲咁嘅(English 2 Spoken),其實我哋每一個同事都知,喺訓練裏面都有,佢哋覺得有需要講,佢 3 哋會講,尤其是如果個求助者話「你可唔可以畀啲(English Spoken)我?」 4 我哋會講嘅,但係佢都要衡量番,其實佢係咪仲花時間同你喺度保持通話,定係應 5 該要畀信息前線?仲有其實我舉個例子,我哋好多嘢都冇寫落去嘅,即係譬如我點 6 樣安慰一個人,譬如話「婆婆,你慢慢嚟,唔使緊張,我哋啲同事已經嚟」,我哋 7 都冇寫喺個(English Spoken)裏面。 8 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係有啲人做得好好。 9 黃思律先生:有人做得好好,但係我哋唔可以寫死,如果寫死,有個壞處就係咩嘢,佢以為 10 講完就算。 11 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白。 12 黃思律先生:其實講呢啲說話係有目的㗎嘛,唔係話播完--佢係一個--佢唔係一個播音機 13 嚟。所以我哋--你要問--今日問我,大狀,我都覺得唔應該寫落去。 14 杜淦堃資深大律師:我諗有另外一個講法,而我唔係同你喺度咬文嚼字,寫落去畀啲意見前 15 線嘅同事話可以咁做,同寫死一定要咁做係兩樣嘢嚟嘅,係咪? 16 黃思律先生:同意。 17 杜淦堃資深大律師:我諗我會知道你嘅答案係咁,但係我都想問一問你,冇寫話喺第一個 18 call 要畀意見一啲打嚟報火警嘅人佢應該要點做,呢一個你話個原因就係其實憑 19 佢哋嘅經驗,你哋知道同事係會咁做嘅,雖然冇寫出嚟,但係你知道(English 20 Spoken)事實上,喺佢哋嘅(English Spoken )裏面,你哋係有叫佢哋咁做 21 嘅? 22 黃思律先生:有。 23 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白。而當然,我唔想再糾纏喺我哋頭先嗰個電話嗰度,因為我相信你 24 都同意,即係喺嗰個情況之下,而家睇番係咪做得好啲,我諗大家都同意係可以 25 嘅。 26 黃思律先生:同意。 27 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係即係有唔同嘅情況,我哋要去探討。 28 黃思律先生:係。 29 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁換句話講,你嘅證供可能--我諗我如果總--歸納可以咁講,我哋喺個 30 (English Spoken)呢啲畀求助者嘅意見,喺你嘅認知裏面,其實有時喺第一 31 個call 度係會畀咗啲求助者嘅? 32 黃思律先生:冇錯。 33 杜淦堃資深大律師:只不過我哋聽到嗰啲有啲情況係冇,而可能嗰個同事係有佢嘅理由? 34 黃思律先生:係。 35 杜淦堃資深大律師:而我哋都要依靠佢嘅經驗,即係我唔逐個抽嚟講,如果佢跟個 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十二天

45 本謄本由Epiq 編製 (English Spoken)好刻板地咁去做都唔得。因為譬如--其實你有好多時問求 1 助者佢係咪安全,佢答唔到你嘅根本。 2 黃思律先生:冇錯。 3 杜淦堃資深大律師:而喺宏福苑呢個case,其實大部分人都答唔到你? 4 黃思律先生:係。 5 杜淦堃資深大律師:嗰個溝通嘅問題,前線同埋指揮中心,我哋頭先--你都同意嘅就係,其 6 實前線嘅資料去番個指揮中心,喺吸取呢次經驗裏面,我哋見到可能係有啲延誤嘅 7 情況或者可以做得更好嘅。而有一個例子我哋引證呢一點就係,我相信你都會記得 8 嘅,其實喺消防處副處長陳慶勇先生嘅證供佢提到,其實喺當日佢喺16:10 嘅時 9 候,其實就同當場嘅林浩俊區長確認咗八座嘅疏散行動係要進行嘅,呢個你知㗎 10 嘛,係咪? 11 黃思律先生:係。 12 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係如果我哋聽番999 求助嘅熱線,點樣去畀信息啲居民,似乎我哋見 13 唔到係有反映到前線嘅呢一個決定嘅,你同唔同意? 14 黃思律先生:我唔係好理解你所講,係從邊一度反映到? 15 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋喺聽番喺16:10 之後嘅電話。 16 黃思律先生:係。 17 杜淦堃資深大律師:其實聽電話嘅人去畀--當然佢哋係畀一啲意見有時,居民點去做。而喺 18 16:10 嗰陣,就決定係八座都係疏散㗎嘛,係咪? 19 黃思律先生:Okay。 20 杜淦堃資深大律師:而呢一個信息其實一定會影響到聽電話嘅人點樣去處理一啲電話嘅求助 21 個案嘅,我相信你同意,係咪? 22 黃思律先生:唔一定。即係老實講,即係如果你話全部都即係做疏散,我可以想像得到個情 23 況就係我哋同事收電話嘅時候,咁佢知道呢個信息,佢係咪就代表會同個求助者講 24 「已經做緊疏散」定係點樣,其實對於我哋個行動唔會有影響。 25 杜淦堃資深大律師:換句話講,你係咪--你嘅證供係咪咁?喺16:10,副處長決定咗八座都 26 做疏散,你覺得呢個信息唔使話番畀求助中心嘅人知? 27 黃思律先生:唔係,唔係唔需要話,佢哋需要話,但係我哋嘅同事聽... 28 杜淦堃資深大律師:一步一步嚟,因為我諗住對你公平啲。 29 黃思律先生:好。 30 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋--第一,16:10 疏散呢個信息係咪即時轉達咗畀中心裏面聽電話 31 嘅同事?對於你嘅理解,係定唔係? 32 黃思律先生:對於我理解係。 33 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係佢哋全部都知嘅? 34 黃思律先生:唔可以講全部都知,因為頭先都講咗,佢將呢個信息返去畀我哋嘅通訊中心, 35 由我哋其中一位同事收咗,就會入咗落去電腦裏面。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十二天

46 本謄本由Epiq 編製 杜淦堃資深大律師:如果佢唔開嗰個系統出嚟睇? 1 黃思律先生:未必會知。 2 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁而你覺得呢一個有冇問題? 3 黃思律先生:我覺得可以有改善嘅空間,但係對於我哋行動... 4 杜淦堃資深大律師:我問緊你有冇問題? 5 黃思律先生:冇問題。 6 杜淦堃資深大律師:你覺得嗰一日聽電話嘅人唔知道16:10 當場決定疏散,你嘅證供係冇 7 問題? 8 黃思律先生:冇問題。 9 杜淦堃資深大律師:點解?我畀你解。 10 黃思律先生:因為我哋嘅同事如果我哋每一刻都要知道現場發生緊咩嘢事,佢入面佢哋嗰個 11 行動嘅細節係點樣,其實根本上對於佢聽電話只會造成更大嘅障礙,佢嘅集中嘅精 12 力就應該係做番我哋頭先嘅工作,主力應該收集信息,將佢哋嘅信息轉交畀前線, 13 而唔係去理解前線做啲乜嘢,更加唔會將前線嘅所有動作話番畀個(English 14 Spoken)聽,我覺得咁樣唔應該係咁樣做。 15 陸啟康法官:其實可唔可以咁講?其實就算有一個疏散嘅命令,其實個聽電話嘅人都唔會話 16 叫你「你即刻走」咁,因為其實都可能危險㗎嘛? 17 黃思律先生:唔會㗎,係,冇錯。 18 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,係,我同意。但係我想--因為你嗰個答案有可能有唔同嘅解讀,所 19 以我想對你公道啲。因為我聽你嘅答案就係,呢一個信息,似乎你而家嘅講法就係 20 你覺得唔應該要影響到聽電話同事畀求助者嘅意見,係咪咁? 21 黃思律先生:係。 22 杜淦堃資深大律師:所以呢一個信息,雖然喺你哋個系統度有,你亦都冇任何措施去確保聽 23 電話嘅人知道? 24 黃思律先生:我哋覺得唔係必要,喺(English Spoken)裏面嘅同事唔係必要知道火場 25 裏面每一個情況。 26 杜淦堃資深大律師:我同意,亦都冇可能,佢唔喺個火場度。但係有啲重要嘅信息,如果影 27 響到佢哋點樣去處理啲求助嘅熱線,我相信你會同意應該畀佢哋知㗎嘛,係咪? 28 黃思律先生:要--我真係我好難理解乜嘢叫做重要唔重要。 29 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢個你應該清楚個喎。 30 黃思律先生:因為就住--我即係好老實講,即係就住我呢個角度,我覺得佢哋唔應該分心再 31 去了解佢現場發生緊咩嘢事,因為現場已經有現場嘅同事去處理,佢係處理call 32 嘅。 33 杜淦堃資深大律師:我完全同意你嘅講法,你冇理由要聽電話個人每一刻留意住火場嘅情 34 況。 35 黃思律先生:仲有就係即使佢知道現場譬如(English Spoken)可能係已經全面疏散, 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十二天

47 本謄本由Epiq 編製 我想像唔到個同事可以點樣同個(English Spoken)講係叫佢有啲乜嘢動作要 1 做定係唔做,係唔會影響到佢收call 嘅時候嗰個行動。即係譬如話舉個例,佢知 2 道全面疏散,唔通佢會叫個(English Spoken)「你放心喇,你慢慢等喇,佢 3 疏散緊㗎嘞」,佢唔會講呢啲說話。又或者叫「疏散緊,不如一齊走」,唔會個 4 喎。所以其實佢知道、唔知道,其實當然我哋希望同事如果佢能夠有時間可以分到 5 心,都了解下現場嘅情況,但係唔係必要嘅。 6 陳健波議員:黃生,我想問一問,大狀都即係問你呢個問題相當時間,個好處係多啲定係壞 7 處多啲?我聽你咁講,... 8 黃思律先生:壞處多啲。 9 陳健波議員:...你覺得係好多問題,係咪? 10 黃思律先生:係。 11 --可能(English Spoken)或者弊嘅仲多問題? 12 陳健波議員:因為人手,又要分心,係咪?但係個(English Spoken)或者好處你又唔 13 覺得好緊要嘅,係咪? 14 黃思律先生:係。 15 陳健波議員:我要尊重,因為你嘅專業,我哋係一個普通人去問呢個問題。你可唔可以講一 16 講係好明顯唔會好大好處,係咪?係唔係你個可能嗰個(English Spoken)或 17 者係啲弊嘅嗰個問題... 18 黃思律先生:壞處多於好處。 19 陳健波議員:我哋可唔可以結束呢一段呢?如果係咁。 20 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔係,或者我咁問,即係當時做咗一個決定--首先係系統上高,聽電話 21 嘅人就未必一定知,而你哋亦都唔覺得聽電話嘅人應該知。 22 黃思律先生:係。 23 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係我哋喺呢單火警裏面有一個大家都關注嘅題目,就係火警喺每一棟 24 蔓延或者影響到每一棟大廈嗰個時間點係唔同。 25 黃思律先生:係。 26 杜淦堃資深大律師:而16:10 其實係喺比較早嘅階段。有一個議題出現咗,就係有啲未受 27 波及嘅大廈,其實係唔係應該有辦法早啲叫嗰棟大廈嘅人離開?所以點解我問你, 28 就係因為我同意我哋要倚賴你嘅專業,但係大家公眾會有一個疑問,就係如果早啲 29 去疏散未被波及嘅大廈,喺呢件事上高可能會救番一啲性命。當然大家都知道有好 30 多其他嘅問題,火警鐘警報系統熄咗呢個我哋大家都明白。但係有一個諗法,我想 31 畀個機會去你去解釋畀我哋聽,就係如果喺16:10 已經決定咗八棟都疏散,如果 32 呢個訊息你哋決定係話畀聽電話嘅同事聽,就話喺某些大廈,未被波及嘅大廈,你 33 畀居民(English Spoken)係快啲走,而唔係(English Spoken),可能 34 呢個會幫到某些居民,你係唔係唔同意呢個講法? 35 黃思律先生:唔同意。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十二天

48 本謄本由Epiq 編製 杜淦堃資深大律師:點解呢?我畀你解一解。 1 黃思律先生:我想講一講就係就算疏散,講緊我哋即係其實未必一個係最合適嘅(English 2 Spoken),因為我哋有另外嘅同事喺現場做總指揮,可能佢都會補充。但係就住 3 我嘅認知嚟講,我哋做疏散,並唔係就咁叫佢走就得,我哋做疏散係會有同事上去 4 拍門,有需要嘅時候就叫佢哋走情況許可,情況唔許可係帶佢哋走。咁亦都有好多 5 嘅case 就係佢真係走咗,其實就算我哋攞番宏福苑呢件事件,其中有一座大廈, 6 我唔講邊座,我哋好傷心有好多逝者其實都係喺啲(English Spoken)度,... 7 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋知道。 8 黃思律先生:...佢哋其實係走咗出嚟。咁如果你叫我個(English Spoken)嘅同事唔 9 理任何現場嘅情況,就咁話畀佢聽,總之如果佢打嚟,「你就走喇」,我知道已經 10 疏散--即使(English Spoken)我哋已經知道係做緊全面疏散,但係叫個同事 11 咁樣同啲市民講都唔係一個恰當嘅做法,因為佢出到去根本上個環境都唔知點樣, 12 我哋唔會咁樣做嘅。就算今日以我嘅專業,處長同我講「我哋已經做緊全面疏散, 13 你叫啲同事同啲市民講,一打上嚟就叫佢離開,唔理三七廿一執埋啲嘢就走出門口 14 走喇,我都會同處長講唔應該咁樣做,唔可以咁樣做。 15 杜淦堃資深大律師:我諗我哋講緊兩個唔同嘅例子。我諗冇人係執意話係唔係16:10 話全 16 面疏散嘅時候,聽電話嘅人就乜都唔理,叫啲人走嘅。但係我諗你嘅講法係去得另 17 外一個層次嘅,你就話呢個疏散嘅指令其實完全唔應該影響聽電話嘅同事,呢樣係 18 兩樣嘢嚟嘅,我相信你同意,係咪? 19 黃思律先生:係。 20 陸啟康法官:其實如果「全面」嗰個理解得唔好,接電話個人佢走去講話「你走喇」,其實 21 就仲危險? 22 黃思律先生:係,冇錯。 23 杜淦堃資深大律師:而當時亦都唔覺得呢一個全面疏散嘅指示,我哋唔係話叫佢走得就走, 24 而需要畀一啲特別指示前線聽電話嘅同事,例如話譬如你喺宏志,而家火警未波及 25 呢個時候,我哋畀你建議係你儘快離開,亦都冇考慮過做呢一啲嘅指示畀前線嘅同 26 事? 27 黃思律先生:唔知嘅,我哋唔會畀啲咁嘅指示畀我哋即係通訊中心嘅同事,佢哋都係跟番, 28 就係話番畀佢聽,「你去望一望。」因為其實我一早已經講咗,如果佢打嚟嘅時 29 候,我哋儘量都會叫佢走,但都都要佢睇下當其時嘅情況。如果佢打嚟--所以其實 30 我可以咁樣講,我哋嘅同事知唔知嗰陣時已經全面疏散其實冇關係,因為佢都會問 31 「你係唔係可以走到呀?即係你出面有冇有冇煙呀?」 32 陸啟康法官:我哋明,我諗亦都希望你都理解我哋點解問。 33 黃思律先生:明白。 34 陸啟康法官:因為其實即係今次冇咗火警鐘,其實可能宏志嗰啲佢一路留喺度,即係變咗其 35 實好彩冇燒到宏志嘅。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十二天

49 本謄本由Epiq 編製 黃思律先生:係。 1 陸啟康法官:即係可能如果宏志一燒埋著,其實就佢哋遲咗走,就係可以都好大件事。 2 黃思律先生:理解。 3 陸啟康法官:所以其實我哋一定會去睇下或者探索,睇下有冇啲情況喺嗰個即係個疏散我 4 明,即係如果你哋嗰個時候叫人哋疏散,你即係叫佢哋全部--嗰個訊息就「我哋一 5 齊走喇」,咁係好危險嘅,喺嗰個情況,因為八棟樓都有唔同嘅情況。 6 黃思律先生:係,冇錯。 7 陸啟康法官:但係我哋就諗緊未燒到嗰啲,佢哋會唔會應該即係嗰個所謂(English 8 Spoken),即係咁樣係應該早啲去點樣處理,因為真係好彩,如果唔好彩燒到宏 9 志,其實可能有啲人喺宏志係唔知道要走。 10 黃思律先生:明白,主席。我知道,以我個理解,前線同事係有考慮呢樣嘢。但係如果你話 11 將嗰個工作擺咗喺個(English Spoken )裏面,叫我哋同事咁樣去畀 12 (English Spoken)就唔應該。 13 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白。即係換句話講,其實呢啲嘢你哋個判斷就係應該留番畀前線嘅同 14 事去處理,唔好影響到(English Spoken)同事嘅工作。 15 黃思律先生:冇錯,係。 16 杜淦堃資深大律師:我明白你嘅證供。我想帶你去睇另一個議題,其實你頭先都提到嘅,你 17 哋嗰個通訊嘅方法係點樣樣。因為我哋如果睇番個流程,喺B3/2704 頁,呢度就 18 有個我哋見到叫做(English Spoken),係2024 年11 月29 號,呢個係相信 19 如果照字面解,係一個試行嘅辦法嚟嘅。 20 黃思律先生:係,同意。 21 杜淦堃資深大律師:因為係(English Spoken)我哋見到。 22 黃思律先生:係。 23 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢度有一啲叫做“(English Spoken)"嘅,有啲我哋都探討過。 24 而我哋見到之後嗰一頁,其實都有啲版面係畀我哋睇到,其實輸入咗個系統嘅時候 25 係會係咩嘢樣嘅。 26 黃思律先生:係。 27 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢個流程我相信你熟悉,係咪? 28 黃思律先生:熟悉。 29 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係因為在座唔係每一位公眾人士都可以詳細研究你嘅供詞或者呢一個 30 流程,你可唔可以統籠解一解畀佢哋聽? 31 黃思律先生:Okay。可唔可以上番少少? 32 杜淦堃資深大律師:好。 33 黃思律先生:Item 1 嗰度,係。 34 杜淦堃資深大律師:2704。 35 黃思律先生:Okay。就呢一個應該係一個回撥嘅機制嚟嘅。唔好意思,可唔可以上番少少? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十二天

50 本謄本由Epiq 編製 Sorry,係,啱,冇錯。呢一個係講緊我哋即係當收到大量嘅求助電話嘅時候我哋 1 點樣做,呢個係一個資訊--資料發放機制。其實一般嚟講,如果我哋收多過四個嘅 2 求助個案,我哋就會啟動。咁我哋一樣,我哋會問番求助者佢一啲基本嘅資料,佢 3 嘅位置,佢嘅年齡、性別同埋佢嘅通訊電話等等。跟住我哋嘅同事就會輸入去我哋 4 嗰個電腦調派系統裏面作為紀錄。而同一時間佢係會用唔同嘅方法通知我哋前線嘅 5 同事,包括咗用無線電,頭先我亦都講咗會利用我哋嗰個內部嘅即時通訊軟體嘅。 6 杜淦堃資深大律師:(English Spoken)? 7 黃思律先生:(English Spoken ),冇錯。咁佢就會點呢?佢唔會再花時間喺個 8 (English Spoken)裏面打字,佢直接就會影番頭先佢已經輸入咗喺我哋電腦 9 調派系統個介面,即係落去下低頭先嗰一頁,第2 頁嘅頂部,呢個部分,呢個 10 (English Spoken)嗰度。咁入面其實佢有好多嘅簡寫,係有唔同嘅意思,而 11 我哋嘅同事亦都知道嘅。佢哋會將呢一啲透過(English Spoken)就send 落 12 去畀我哋前線滅火救援嘅同事,佢哋透過佢哋嘅電話就會睇得到。而我哋嘅流動指 13 揮車如果到場嘅話,亦都會print 一個紙本嘅紀錄畀我哋嘅前線嘅指揮官,等佢 14 分發畀佢哋嘅同事上門去救援。 15 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋喺呢度睇到第1.2 段嗰度講到,其實消防處係會首先將資料輸入去 16 嗰個CMS 嗰度? 17 黃思律先生:係,冇錯,即係電腦調派系統。 18 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁跟住就再用嗰個(English Spoken)發畀--嗰個係唔係全部前線 19 嘅同事都會喺呢個(English Spoken)呢個group 嗰度? 20 黃思律先生:唔係全部,佢而家個分發係所有嘅助理消防區長以上,我哋有分發到部門嘅電 21 話畀佢,就已經有呢個(English Spoken)。而每一架車嘅同事佢哋嘅主管同 22 埋副主管都會有呢個咁嘅電話。 23 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白。即係似乎係畀指令嘅人? 24 黃思律先生:係,冇錯。 25 杜淦堃資深大律師:跟住你哋講到喺2708 頁嗰度,其實點話畀前線嘅同事知,似乎就係會 26 抄寫喺現場一個(English Spoken),一個告示板上高,而嗰個格式就乎係咁 27 樣樣,係咪? 28 黃思律先生:嗰䭅告示板其實係喺我哋嘅流動指揮車裏面,亦都其實唔係實體一個嘅告示 29 板。 30 杜淦堃資深大律師:係電腦嚟嘅? 31 黃思律先生:係。 32 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢個CMS 嘅排序我都哋想問下你,如果我哋睇番B5/4368 。 33 B5/4368,呢個似乎係你哋提供CMS 嘅一張照片嚟㗎喇? 34 黃思律先生:係。 35 杜淦堃資深大律師:就我睇到譬如喺呢度,(English Spoken ),2 樓,兩個 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十二天

51 本謄本由Epiq 編製 (English Spoken),係咪?呢度“2F"即係。 1 黃思律先生:係,冇錯。 2 杜淦堃資深大律師:就係2703,跟住有當事人嘅電話嘅。 3 黃思律先生:係。 4 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢啲係收到指示之後,我相信呢個係人手打落去,再輸入? 5 黃思律先生:係,冇錯。 6 杜淦堃資深大律師:而每一次有新增一個求助個案,其實聽電話嘅同事就會開咗一個咁嘅 7 file 或者開咗一個咁嘅個案去處理,咁資料就加上去? 8 黃思律先生:係。 9 杜淦堃資深大律師:你喺第二份證人供詞4.7 段,就提到當日其實都出現咗唔少次重複求助 10 個案,你嘅用詞係“(English Spoken)"。 11 黃思律先生:係。 12 杜淦堃資深大律師:大家都明白可能有一個人需要被救援,佢自己打多過一次嚟,或者佢有 13 親戚打嚟,所以呢啲都係一啲例子,係咪? 14 黃思律先生:我哋好理解嘅。 15 杜淦堃資深大律師:如果我哋睇B5/4368,我哋睇到呢度,似乎係如果我哋去理解呢個系統 16 就係15:01y就收到電話求助,係咪?右上角嗰度,喺右邊呢度。 17 黃思律先生:係。 18 杜淦堃資深大律師:個個案就係宏昌2703,有兩個女士,兩個female,係咪? 19 黃思律先生:係。 20 杜淦堃資深大律師:而我哋喺4369 如果去。我哋睇到呢個係消防處--應該係你哋頭先解釋 21 畀我聽個(English Spoken)。 22 黃思律先生:係,冇錯,呢一個係電腦嘅板面。 23 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢個係電腦板面,但係即係好似我哋用... 24 黃思律先生:WhatsApp。 25 杜淦堃資深大律師:...WhatsApp 咁,用電腦可以... 26 黃思律先生:電腦版,係,冇錯。 27 杜淦堃資深大律師:手機都睇到嘅? 28 黃思律先生:係。 29 杜淦堃資深大律師:你睇4370 如果。如果你喺4370 你就會睇到,我哋見到似乎應該係你 30 講嗰啲例子嚟嘅,呢個係“(English Spoken)",都係兩個female,呢個 31 係消防處喺16:02 嗰度收到嘅,睇唔睇到? 32 黃思律先生:係。 33 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢個係完全同一個,但係就似乎被列為一個新嘅求助個案,... 34 黃思律先生:冇錯。 35 杜淦堃資深大律師:...我哋完全理解你哋都係明白當日係遇到呢個問題嘅? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十二天

52 本謄本由Epiq 編製 黃思律先生:我哋知道會有咁嘅情況,我哋都做咗措施去處理呢個咁嘅情況。 1 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋整合過你提供嘅資料,就見到消防處當日透過(English 2 Spoken)其實係發咗六百個求助個案,但係最後其實證實只係有三百零九個求助 3 個案,所以嗰個重複喺當日似乎係幾犀利嘅? 4 黃思律先生:如果應該係--我就知道應該係三百四十七個地址,如果以地址計就係。 5 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係如果個案就係三百零九個嘅去到最屘。 6 黃思律先生:我唔肯定,不過都應該係。 7 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係個重複我諗點睇都係比較嚴重嘅? 8 黃思律先生:係,冇錯。 9 杜淦堃資深大律師:所以你哋--呢一個我想問下你,發生咗我哋知道問題,你哋都有考慮點 10 處理。 11 黃思律先生:係。 12 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢個當日咁嘅情況,其實重複咗差唔多一倍嘅求助個案,對於前線或者 13 畀指揮嘅同事,其實造成咗啲咩嘢挑戰當時? 14 黃思律先生:當其時我哋喺我哋嘅流動指揮車未到場之前,其實我哋通訊中心嘅同事都只係 15 忙於收呢啲咁嘅電話,咁佢一收完之後就即刻將佢輸入咗喺電腦裏面,就已經將相 16 關嘅資料畀前線,所以前線有機會喺早期時間係有好多重複嘅資料,所以喺佢調派 17 上面或者係點樣安排人上去嘅時候,可能會有影響,但係呢一部分可能等我嘅即係 18 助理處長再解釋。 19 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白。所以我就係想解一解即係其實嗰個挑戰係點?即係可能--我諗如 20 果具體啲嘅例子,同一個單位你有兩個唔同嘅個案,你唔知道已經可能另外有同事 21 處理緊,...有個資源浪費嘅問題? 22 黃思律先生:係,冇錯,會有係咁嘅情況。 23 杜淦堃資深大律師:我知道你喺4.7.3 段,就話你哋都考慮緊升級個系統,可能要加一啲 24 過瀘嘅功能,令到唔會有呢啲個案咁出現。 25 黃思律先生:係。 26 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋如果睇番呢個(English Spoken),我哋個理解比較--即係惟 27 有用我哋日常生活最接近嘅嘢去理解。 28 黃思律先生:係,明白。 29 杜淦堃資深大律師:其實好似我哋一般用嗰啲通訊軟件咁樣去理解。 30 黃思律先生:係。 31 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔係每一個求助--係唔係每一個求助個案都會變成一個新嘅群組?我想 32 你解一解釋畀我哋聽係點樣運作嘅呢個。 33 黃思律先生:個群組係我哋當發生事件嘅時候會開一個新嘅群組,就淨係單單應付呢一次嘅 34 事件。 35 杜淦堃資深大律師:所以成個宏福苑係一個群組嘅? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十二天

53 本謄本由Epiq 編製 黃思律先生:係,而將所有關於呢啲所謂嘅(English Spoken)嘅一啲request 個案 1 全部擺晒上去。 2 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋睇緊嗰個係一個電腦嘅,頭先你講緊係一個電腦嘅版面。 3 黃思律先生:係。 4 杜淦堃資深大律師:同個手機去睇個app 個版面未必係一樣,係咪? 5 黃思律先生:基本上一樣,不過就冇咗左手邊嗰一啲咁嘅嘢,即係我理解就係我哋用 6 WhatsApp 咁樣囉。 7 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係你WhatsApp 桌面都係有多啲資料。 8 黃思律先生:係,冇錯。 9 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係我哋睇到中間嗰一項,應該就係最重要嘅資料喺呢度,係咪? 10 黃思律先生:係。 11 杜淦堃資深大律師:右手面嗰啲圖應該都會喺度嘅,係咪? 12 黃思律先生:其實最重要就係嗰啲圖。 13 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋睇呢啲截圖其實應該係唔係咁樣?999 或者聽到電話嘅同事轉入咗 14 嚟消防之後,佢哋就會其實用一啲儀器或者用個電話影低我哋見到右手面嗰個系 15 統,跟住好似發我哋平時WhatsApp 擺張圖去嗰個(English Spoken)系統嗰 16 嗰度,... 17 黃思律先生:係,冇錯。 18 杜淦堃資深大律師:...咁你要撳番出嚟睇下嗰張圖寫乜嘢? 19 黃思律先生:係。 20 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係如果係咁,如果同事已經輸入咗有關訊息去一個系統嗰度,其實因 21 為嗰兩個系統似乎--消防處嗰個系統同個(English Spoken)因為其實唔係相 22 連嘅,所以就要靠一個影相嘅(English Spoken)去send 個圖上去? 23 黃思律先生:冇錯。 24 杜淦堃資深大律師:如果係咁樣樣嘅話,即係基本上科技日新月異,用啲方法可能亦都會有 25 改進。 26 黃思律先生:係。 27 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋就咁去睇,如果每一個個案都係用一張相去表達嘅話,咁前線嘅同 28 事其實一方面就要睇啲(English Spoken),另外方面佢就要撳啲張相出嚟, 29 去睇下每一個個案嘅內容,... 30 黃思律先生:係,同意。 31 杜淦堃資深大律師:...就似乎系統上高係冇連接嘅? 32 黃思律先生:暫時冇。 33 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白。我相信呢個都會係你哋諗下點樣去令到更有效? 34 黃思律先生:即係大方向我哋會就住呢樣嘢去睇。 35 杜淦堃資深大律師:而你都確認咗前線嘅同事,基本上去救火救人嘅同事其實佢唔會睇呢個 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十二天

54 本謄本由Epiq 編製 CMS 嘅系統,呢個CMS 系統基本上係--或者呢個(English Spoken)係畀啲 1 發號司令嘅指揮官嘅,係咪? 2 黃思律先生:首先我講一講CMS 先,即係嗰個電腦調派系統,佢哋現場係冇工具可以睇得到 3 嘅。 4 杜淦堃資深大律師:所以要影張相? 5 黃思律先生:係,佢哋只有個手機可以睇到(English Spoken),所以我哋就透過呢個 6 訊息,即係透過呢一個軟體將呢啲資料畀佢哋。咁亦都唔係所有前線同事都有呢個 7 部門出嘅電話,你講得啱,主要都一啲即係指揮嘅同事。 8 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係換句話講,咁講啱唔啱?如果我就咁睇呢一個版面嘅話,如果我哋 9 睇右手面send 出嚟嗰啲相會覺得係一個新嘅個案。即係其實好似我哋當日如果攞 10 住個電話,我諗最近嘅例子就好似喺WhatsApp 度收到六百張相? 11 黃思律先生:係,冇錯。 12 杜淦堃資深大律師:而有人就要去基本上過濾呢啲訊息,然之後就畀番前線嘅同事去睇? 13 黃思律先生:冇錯,所以當其時我哋其實派咗三架嘅流動指揮車,一般嘅大型火警其實我哋 14 都係派兩架,今次我哋派咗三架車落去,一架就係我哋本身做番行動嘅指揮,另外 15 一架亦都之前有位副消防總長黃景文先生都講咗,就係幫佢設立一個前線指揮站, 16 而第三架其實最主要喺前線幫我做工夫,就係篩選番一啲重複嘅call,令到我哋 17 嗰個前線嘅同事可以唔使有咁多即係重複嘅資料去即係阻礙到佢哋做前線嘅決定。 18 杜淦堃資深大律師:另外一個溝通,如果前線嘅人員係處理咗一個個案,咁喺個(English 19 Spoken)會唔會知道? 20 黃思律先生:佢唔會喺裏面講,佢會透過番無線電話番畀我哋聽呢一個case 已經處理咗。 21 而其實喺我哋頭先講話,當我第三架嘅流動指揮車到場之後,其實我哋都唔等佢哋 22 即係啲前線指揮報啲訊息返嚟,我哋主動每隔一段時間就問佢「呢一啲咁嘅求助個 23 案你處理咗未?」我哋儘量希望咁多嘅求助個案係不斷有人去跟進緊。 24 杜淦堃資深大律師:另外我哋見到有啲情況,就係有啲求助個案係(English Spoken) 25 冇嘅,你哋有啲處理咗,有啲可能處理唔到。我哋相信如果冇喺呢個糸統度見到 26 嘅,應該就係在場收到一啲求助個案,而你哋係處理咗嘅? 27 黃思律先生:係,冇錯。 28 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁嗰啲求助個案嘅紀錄處理咗,點樣去反映番喺個系統嗰度,係唔係又 29 係透過無線電? 30 黃思律先生:我哋現場有流動指揮車,通常如果現場一啲個案處理咗,又或者係現場收嘅個 31 案,都會經由我哋嘅流動指揮車集中統一發放番畀我哋通訊中心,由佢哋入番落去 32 個電腦嗰度。 33 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係換句話講,就通訊中心就會有人亦都係即係(English 34 Spoken),即係手打,聽番個案處理咗,就打番落去。 35 黃思律先生:其實或者講得再細緻啲,就係譬如話我哋流動指揮車已經收咗一啲咁嘅求助個 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十二天

55 本謄本由Epiq 編製 案,佢哋都會用番佢哋自己一啲比較即係(English Spoken)啲嘅軟體,譬如 1 直情舉個簡單嘅例子,就係佢用緊Excel,佢用Excel 入番好晒,跟住將呢一個 2 Excel file 就send 去畀我哋FSCC。我哋FSCC 由於嗰個電腦系統其實本身因 3 為係保安嘅問題,佢係一個封閉式嘅系統,所以必須要都係用人手將呢啲咁嘅資料 4 打番落去。 5 杜淦堃資深大律師:當然,因為你哋已經講咗會優化呢個(English Spoken)嘅系統, 6 我哋如果就咁去睇呢一個版面嘅話,我哋相信其實在場嗰個要消化資料嘅同事,其 7 實都係唔容易嘅,因為個數量比較大。 8 黃思律先生:所以點解我哋後期係print 咗一啲紙本嘅,我哋叫做一個報告咁樣,一個 9 list,就畀番我哋前線同事等佢揸住容易去做,其實都係咁。 10 杜淦堃資深大律師:跟住我想同你討論一下,想你解一解個(English Spoken)畀大家 11 聽嘅亦都。我哋頭先都探討過,你有(English Spoken)嘅指引,我哋頭先見 12 到。 13 黃思律先生:係。 14 杜淦堃資深大律師:你第二份證人供詞都提到,喺4.4.2 段,當日消防處其實啟動咗個 15 support centre,15:20 嘅時候其實喺幾早嘅時候已經有八十位非前線嘅人員 16 去支援,開咗十八條熱線嘅差唔多係。 17 黃思律先生:係。 18 杜淦堃資深大律師:換句話講有八十位同事,但係佢哋主要負責嘅都係嗰十八條線? 19 黃思律先生:係,冇錯。 20 杜淦堃資深大律師:而開十八條去call back 嘅原因,係一個系統上嘅限制定係人手上嘅 21 限制?因為當日嗰個火警同埋要處理嘅人嗰個數目,我咁講同唔同意?如果有多啲 22 人可以同一時間call back,可能會好啲嘅。 23 黃思律先生:當日個情況係我哋用盡晒我哋所有嘅資源。 24 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白。 25 黃思律先生:我哋邊度有人,我哋就叫晒所有人落嚟幫手;邊度有線,我哋就儘量開最多條 26 線,所以十八條嚟講係我哋嘅極限嚟嘅。 27 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係我想理解,係唔係都係其實開盡係十八條,所以係十八? 28 黃思律先生:係,冇錯。 29 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白。而你喺4.4.1 段解釋,其實你哋呢個運作同999 報案中心其實 30 係兩個唔同嘅系統,係唔連接嘅,係咪? 31 黃思律先生:唔連接嘅。 32 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係呢個係你哋自己消防自己去開咗十八條線去處理? 33 黃思律先生:係,但係呢個我可能再需要解釋多清楚少少。 34 杜淦堃資深大律師:好。 35 黃思律先生:就係呢十八條線唔係接聽求助者嘅電話,相反係我哋主動去回撥番畀求助者, 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十二天

56 本謄本由Epiq 編製 去update 番佢當其時個情況,點解會係咁?因為呢十八條線本身同我哋嘅電腦調 1 派系統係唔相連嘅,我哋嘅工作台連接住我哋嘅調派系統就只有嗰三十條線,所以 2 即係呢十八條線可以咁樣講,係即係一個權宜之計嚟嘅其實係。 3 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係其實係十八條額外嘅電話線嚟嘅,可唔呵以咁講? 4 黃思律先生:有錄音功能嘅。 5 杜淦堃資深大律師:嗰個做法根據你個(English Spoken),其實就係每十五至二十分 6 鐘打番畀當事人,其實睇下佢哋點樣? 7 黃思律先生:盡可能係咁。 8 杜淦堃資深大律師:當然高峰嘅時候,我哋知道喺27 號嘅淩晨5 點46 分你哋提供嘅資料 9 都講咗,其實當時係過晒你哋嘅極限,因為有一百七十四個尚未處理嘅求助個案嘅 10 嗰陣時? 11 黃思律先生:係,冇錯。 12 杜淦堃資深大律師:嗰個係一個系統上高嘅樽頸極限嚟嘅基本上? 13 黃思律先生:係。 14 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋根據你嘅口供提到,當日其實你哋打咗好多電話,打咗超過一千五 15 百個電話嘅? 16 黃思律先生:係。 17 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢一個系統我明白當時係臨時嘅,有冇記錄番譬如你哋呢啲call 18 back 裏面聽到嘅消息,係點樣樣同前線溝通同埋點樣去做記錄,可唔可以都解釋 19 畀我哋聽? 20 黃思律先生:嗰個電話線嘅錄音只係錄咗我哋同求助者嘅對話,至於我哋點樣同前線嗰啲對 21 話其實係冇錄咗喺裏面嘅。 22 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白。 23 黃思律先生:至於我哋同求助者嘅電話有大概其實--我哋都有好多係打唔番或者打畀佢嘅時 24 候佢係冇聽,大概係千百個當中只有一半係即係可以回應到我哋。 25 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁如果譬如你打去,打call back 嗰個人已經獲救,你哋係會點做番 26 個紀錄喺系統嗰度?呢十八條線處理嘅人係唔係都係可以喺個CMS 系統度入番資 27 料? 28 黃思律先生:唔得,只有一個可以,我哋有一部獨立嘅機,同嗰十八條線係完全冇相連嘅, 29 不過係獨立嘅一部機,佢只係靠嗰部機就將呢啲資料入番落去即係嗰個CMS 裏面, 30 電腦調派系統裏面。又或者佢仲有第二個方法,就係因為其實嗰個(English 31 Spoken)咗喺我哋總部嘅6 樓,佢就人手行番落2 耬嗰個通訊中心叫佢哋入,一 32 係就咁樣。 33 杜淦堃資深大律師:當然,因為呢個係一個臨時嘅措施,我想問call back 嘅系統呢個做 34 法,對於你記憶裏面其實係使用過幾多次?係恒常使用定係其實係今次大火先至做 35 得比較普遍? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十二天

57 本謄本由Epiq 編製 黃思律先生:如果就住大火嘅話,呢個(English Spoken)係第一次開嘅,但係當然我 1 哋以前都曾經試過開過,就係就住一啲即係颱風,一個廣泛性,即係成個香港嘅事 2 件我哋都有開過嘅,但係個功能就唔係做call back 嗰度其實。今次就住火警, 3 我哋做一個call back,就真係應該係第一次。 4 杜淦堃資深大律師:而call back 我哋點樣去分嗰個程序點走,譬如打番畀邊個先,應該 5 打畀一啲新嘅人,定再call back 番一啲已經搵到嘅人,呢啲其實當日因為係一 6 個史無前例嘅情況,就要好靠當時同事嘅判斷? 7 黃思律先生:同事嘅應變。 8 杜淦堃資深大律師:主席,呢個可能係一個適當時間,唔該晒。 9 陸啟康法官:我諗都可以喺呢度講講,其實call back 今次好多市民覺得好有用,亦都即 10 係即係有一位婆婆都通過我同消防員講,因為call back 令到佢當日係可以好過 11 啲,同埋心情平靜啲嘅。所以其實今次我諗呢個call back 係一個--當然可能有 12 嘢改進,但都都係一個成功嘅部署嚟嘅。 13 黃思律先生:明白,主席。 14 陸啟康法官:好,咁我哋押後到2 點15 分。 15

16 12 時58 分聆訊押後 17 14 時15 分聆訊恢復 18

19 陸啟康法官:係,請繼續。 20 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,黃Sir,就嗰個callback 都想你協助多我哋一樣嘢,同事打番 21 去畀未獲救助嘅求助人,搵唔搵到佢哋喇?佢哋當時嘅情況?當然,對前線拯救佢 22 哋嘅同事好緊要,佢哋點樣將攞到嘅資料話番畀前線知?係咪就係靠入番落CMS 嗰 23 度? 24 黃思律先生:佢入落CMS 係其中一個要做嘅嘢。另外,更加緊要呢,佢要通知番--因為我 25 當其時已經--即係我後期時間已經落咗去前線,其實除咗我之外,我亦都帶咗幾位 26 隊長級嘅同事落咗去,佢哋係不斷電話係同我哋個support centre 去溝通,一 27 來update 番佢哋嗰啲待救者嘅情況,二來就係睇下會唔會有一啲緊急嘅資訊,即 28 係譬如話可能會打畀個待救者,佢話「我已經唔得嘞,嗰個環境好差,啲火已經燒 29 咗入嚟」,類似呢啲咁嘅資訊,我哋都會即係話番畀我哋前線嘅指揮官聽,等佢哋 30 睇下可唔可以作到一啲優先嘅部署。 31 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係變咗嗰日你個角色就係你同埋你帶嗰幾位隊長級嘅同事? 32 黃思律先生:係,冇錯。 33 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白。跟住我想畀個時間你去交代一下有啲公眾嘅問題,譬如而家呢個 34 證人供詞裏面有啲都交代咗,但係呢個係一個好嘅機會去講你哋嘅立場。你第一份 35 證人供詞8.5 段,提到一個好多人都問過嘅疑問,前兩日都有同事提過嘅,無人 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十二天

58 本謄本由Epiq 編製 機,因為你都提到之後你哋同大疆係有開過會,去探討係咪真係可行,同埋之後你 1 哋做訓練嘅時候會唔會都用一啲呢啲嘅科技。 2 黃思律先生:好。 3 杜淦堃資深大律師:可唔可以解一解畀大家聽? 4 黃思律先生:喺我回答呢個問題之前,我想去番今朝我有個--有一樣嘢我想澄清嘅。 5 杜淦堃資深大律師:好呀。 6 黃思律先生:就係因為講緊兩個centre,即係police 嘅999 通訊中心同我哋嗰個聯繫 7 呢,我今朝講話用Fax,其實唔係完全正確,而家更加多嘅時間係用Email 先 8 啱,對唔住。我想更正番呢樣嘢。 9 杜淦堃資深大律師:好呀。 10 黃思律先生:咁就關於... 11 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係仲有用Fax 嘅? 12 黃思律先生:都有月用,其實我哋用各樣嘅(English Spoken)去溝通。 13 杜淦堃資深大律師:因為其實我想同你講番清楚,因為我哋喺記錄度睇到,有啲寫住有fax 14 record 嘅。 15 黃思律先生:係,冇錯。 16 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白,你繼續,係。 17 黃思律先生:Okay,關於無人機嗰度呢,其實我哋不嬲都有就住一啲新嘅科技去做研究。其 18 實自2017 年我哋已經係即係對於無人機係好留意,如果大家有留意到我哋嗰個服 19 務,其實我哋都有唔同嘅方面去使用無人機,包括咗係火場嘅勘察、山火、甚至乎 20 係地震喇,嗰啲我哋都會有使用。但係其實都當中我哋有一個難點就係,其實好多 21 人都話「點解唔用無人機救火呢?」其實據我哋嘅理解就係,而家全世界其實都冇 22 正式可以搵到滅火無人機投入到去實火嘅即係服務當中,點解呢?其實因為佢技術 23 係有啲痛點,第一,就係佢要--因為佢要滅火,佢一定要拖住條水喉,其實水係有 24 好大嘅重量,好重嘅,你又要佢飛得高,越飛得高,即係話佢嗰條喉就越長,佢要 25 載重就越重,自自然然佢射出嚟嘅水壓亦都會相對低,簡單嚟講,即係佢越飛得 26 高,佢射出嚟嘅水柱就越短,水量越小、越弱,呢個第一個難處。第二個難處就 27 係,佢其實係一啲電子嘅部件嚟嘅,一個無人機入面有啲英文叫做electronic 28 components,其實佢係唔耐熱嘅,一般嚟講佢可以抵受到溫度係五十度喥嘅啫。 29 但係當然佢可以有其他嘅一啲(English Spoken),即係一啲叫做咩?中文係 30 一啲間隔,可以做到令到佢可以抵受高少少嘅溫度,但係其實佢亦都唔能夠太接近 31 火場,咁頭先我所講,其實佢射出嚟嘅水柱越高就越短。咁你話「飛近啲咪得 32 囉」,其實佢又唔可以飛近啲。 33 杜淦堃資深大律師:冇用。 34 黃思律先生:冇用嘅,係呀,冇錯。另外,就係因為要拖咁重吖嘛,咁佢就唔係好似一般嘅 35 無人機咁樣,其實無人機個載重係點呢?通常如果譬如話佢--假設舉個例,佢係 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十二天

59 本謄本由Epiq 編製 80kg 嘅話,佢額外載重就可以載40kg,咁但係如果佢要戴咁重嘅即係水喉上到去 1 滅火嘅話,佢必其然好大,我哋而家見到一啲產品呢,內地有好多唔同嘅滅火無人 2 機嘅產品,其實可能係講緊大狀你面前兩張檯加埋都唔夠呢個size,好巨型,咁 3 即係話佢會產生--佢可能飛起上嚟嘅時候,佢會產生好強嘅下洗氣流,個作用有啲 4 似--其實係似直升機一樣,佢不單止嗰啲風唔會即係幫到我哋,更加會有機會將啲 5 煙吹番入去單位裏面,亦都有煽風點火嗰個效果。當然我哋其實亦都同緊大學,同 6 緊佢哋啲即係唔同嘅生產商不斷去研究點樣去克服呢啲咁嘅--即係技術嘅先天性嘅 7 困難,但係好老實講,我哋今時今日睇到好多網上嘅片段話,咦,已經有滅火無人 8 機用緊喎,呢一啲都係生產商攞出嚟嘅片段,當中經過好多嘅剪接。我唔夠膽講話 9 完全冇用,但係喺我哋而家即係實際嘅滅火嘅用途上面,我就覺得暫時仲未係成熟 10 可以用得到。 11 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白,另外有一個討論就係問,有公眾都提過,點解唔用直升機救火 12 呢?呢個你頭先講到氣流嘅問題喇,(English Spoken )呢個係其中一個問 13 題。 14 黃思律先生:呢個係其中一個問題。 15 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢個亦都有人交代過,就係其實喺嘉利大廈個大火裏面,你哋都曾經試 16 過用直升機救人。 17 黃思律先生:係,冇錯。 18 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁當時係出現咗問題嘅? 19 黃思律先生:其實嘉利大廈我哋唔係救火嘅,嘉利大廈我哋係救人嘅。當其時亦都係遇咗好 20 多問題,喺嗰個之後嘅報告,其實都有指出,當中有啲唔理想嘅情況,令我哋滅火 21 嘅時候都會產生困難。但係嗰一次就好好彩,就都可以喺天台度救到人喇。咁但係 22 今次呢,其實個情況應該係完全都唔同,因為個火勢今次比起嘉利大廈更加誇張, 23 係同一時間有七棟嘅大廈著火,大家見到嗰個電視畫面其實嗰個煙係好多嘅。其實 24 我哋都了解過,就算我哋搵飛行服務隊佢哋嚟,其實佢哋喺個飛行安全方面都有考 25 慮。咁我呢方面我唔即係班門弄斧,我就可能即係由番佢哋自己講。但係就住滅火 26 嗰度,我想講其實有幾個重點都係我哋當其時考慮咗,但係我哋覺得唔適合搵直升 27 機到場。第一就係頭先講嘅下洗嘅氣流,第二樣嘢就係嗰個水彈,即係佢載咗水, 28 然後跟住喺個樓宇上面抌落去。其實水係--頭先我講係好重嘅其實,一般GFS 佢 29 哋攞咗嗰個水彈,一缸水喇,嗰個重量大概係一噸至兩噸喥,如果呢一個重量直接 30 即係投擲落去個火場裏面呢,其實係好大機會會令到嗰啲本身已經搖搖欲墜嘅棚架 31 進一步倒冧。如果係咁話呢,我哋喺地下即係做緊嘢嘅同事,同埋啱啱喺下低出嚟 32 嗰啲咁嘅居民一定會受到好大嘅影響,傷亡會好慘重。其次,即係將嗰一啲咁嘅竹 33 枝全部都沖晒落地下呢,更加阻礙到我哋進入嗰個單位裏面,根本上,即係我自己 34 喺現場呢,我都有畀我嘅意見,我覺得唔應該用呢個咁嘅方法。 35 杜淦堃資深大律師:你亦都解釋過,另一個解釋就係幫助唔到嗰個內部救火(English 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十二天

60 本謄本由Epiq 編製 Spoken),或者你想唔想都講一講? 1 黃思律先生:呢個其實都係一個即係好簡單可以理解嘅嘢嚟嘅。即係其實我哋喺出面投擲幾 2 多水都好呢,其實都唔會入到單位裏面嘅,大家可以理解到,如果即係咁樣都可以 3 入到去單位裏面,咁平時我哋落雨嘅話,應該啲雨就已經入晒去單位裏面。其實冇 4 可能嘅,佢哋只可以最多喺外牆裏面即係做清洗呀,即係唔會入到去單位裏面。所 5 以其實--同埋我都想強調,我哋入面其實開咗好多喉,可能有市民話「喂,其實點 6 解你即係咁少喉嘅呢?」其實我哋喺內部做緊滅火嘅時間,我哋其實開咗好多條 7 喉,入面其實如果即係有同事即係或者--我諗主要都係我哋自己,冇其他人可以見 8 到,但係其實入面好似瀑布咁樣,即係喺啲樓梯上面,其實啲水不斷流落嚟,其實 9 唔係冇水,係好充足嘅水源喺裏面。所以出面外圍再投擲水彈,咁其實個作用對於 10 滅火,其實基本上係冇。 11 杜淦堃資深大律師:另外有啲講法就係話,你處理今次一個外牆嘅大火,我哋知道喺竹棚度 12 一路燒上去,當時你哋初期亦都有已經話有好多棚冧咗,所以入唔到去。 13 黃思律先生:係。 14 杜淦堃資深大律師:所以我哋見到坊間有啲講法,其實係話既然係咁,火警初期係咪應該已 15 經用一個無人機或者直升機去投擲水彈呢?我相信個唔可行嘅理由係你頭先講嗰 16 啲? 17 黃思律先生:係,冇錯。 18 杜淦堃資深大律師:另外有一個講法,就係主席前幾日都問過你嘅同事嘅,就係外面射水入 19 去嘅問題。似乎而家嘅證據就係其實外面射水入去唔係唔可行,但係亦都有風險。 20 黃思律先生:係,你講。 21 杜淦堃資深大律師:都係有一個--因為裏面高溫,... 22 黃思律先生:係,冇錯。 23 杜淦堃資深大律師:...可能會對裏面嘅人做成危險。 24 黃思律先生:係。 25 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢個你有冇嘢可以補充到或者解一解? 26 黃思律先生:一般嚟講我哋做外圍射水嘅話呢,其實我哋嘅外圍射水就靠鋼梯去射嘅,佢唔 27 會直接射入個單位裏面,佢一般係射喺個單位嘅外牆嗰度,做成一個水簾嘅效果, 28 阻止嗰個單位嘅火向四方八面蔓延開去。今次嘅做法... 29 杜淦堃資深大律師:停一停先,所以就算射到入個單位都唔會射嘅...(聽不清)救火嘅? 30 黃思律先生:一般唔會射嘅。 31 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白。 32 黃思律先生:有例外嘅情況,或者我哋可以預先講嘅就係當其時如果我哋可以肯定個單位裏 33 面已經冇人,而我哋嘅同事亦都喺個單位裏面撤離咗,撤離咗一個安全嘅地方呢, 34 為咗做一個過渡性嘅滅火,即係話唔好令到個滅火嗰個行動中斷呢,我哋就會指令- 35 -喺呢個情況之下就會指令出面嘅鋼梯向裏面射水,但係亦都唔係糊亂射水嘅,佢射 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十二天

61 本謄本由Epiq 編製 水係有目的嘅,只係射喺裏面嘅天花板個位置,令到佢可以做到第一,就沖散咗喺 1 個單位裏面嘅可燃氣體,積聚咗喺天花板嗰啲可燃氣體,另外就係做一個降溫。令 2 到喺個天花裏面再落番嚟嘅水呢可以令到嗰個單位裏面嘅即係著咗火嘅嘢可以降 3 溫,但始終都唔會救得熄個火。雖然我哋知道嗰個水量係好大,你話水淹咪得囉, 4 其實唔會,因為啲水會四方八面流走。但係佢亦都射唔到一啲本身著緊火嘅物體, 5 所以點解始終都係要靠我哋嘅消防員進行內部滅火,去到個單位裏面先至可以救熄 6 嗰個火。 7 杜淦堃資深大律師:另外我哋聽過一個講法就係會有個風險,就係如果有好多水蒸氣會傷到 8 裏面嘅人。 9 黃思律先生:冇錯,係嘞,其實我哋頭先講咗喇,射水入面係可以降溫,但係大家可以理解 10 就係點解可以降溫,就係因為你啲水吸收咗啲熱,變成水蒸氣係咪?變成咗水蒸氣 11 之後呢,佢就會向四方八面擴散,水蒸氣都係有溫度,水蒸氣好熱嘅。咁如果本身- 12 -我哋可以想像得到,如果喺個廳裏面,本身佢間房可能未受影響嘅,咁你射咁多水 13 入去,咁大量嘅水蒸氣,就會連入面待救嘅人士都會受到影響。第一,我哋成日都 14 講話會淥熟喇,其實呢個都唔係最主要嘅原因,係佢吸入咗一啲咁高溫氣體,其實 15 就會令佢嗰個呼吸道腫脹,即時等於我哋吸入濃煙一樣,其實即係就會令佢哋生命 16 受到威脅㗎嘞。 17 杜淦堃資深大律師:就會仲危險啲。 18 黃思律先生:係,冇錯。 19 杜淦堃資深大律師:所以有啲講法喺我哋聽過嘅證供裏面,喺外圍觀察嘅市民可能覺得話係 20 咪唔夠水壓或者雲梯去得唔夠高,對於呢啲講法,你可唔可以解釋畀我哋聽當時你 21 哋諗法係點? 22 黃思律先生:我哋現時嘅雲梯,香港其實最高係56 米,射埋水呢,其實大概就可以去到20 23 層樓嘅地方。咁你話20 層樓以上點算呢?其實我頭先都講咗,其實我哋從來都唔 24 係話單單依靠外圍嘅滅火,而家世界上面呢,最先進嘅城市,其實佢採用嘅鋼梯嘅 25 高度都同我哋相若嘅。咁你話其實內地或者甚至乎一啲東南亞或國家,佢哋有100 26 米嘅鋼梯車,點解我哋香港唔採用呢?100 米鋼梯車佢本身個車嘅重量亦都要大。 27 我哋而家香港嘅道路,我哋講緊畀我哋緊急車輛使用嘅通道嗰個負重係30 噸,闊 28 度係6 米,所以適合到我哋而家現時嗰個56 米鋼梯車嘅使用,但係如果100 米嘅 29 鋼梯車嘅話,佢嗰個重量係由60 噸至80 噸不等,其次佢要嗰個即係開出嚟佢有四 30 隻腳嘅,我哋叫做就要「積」,即係叫做一個支撐嘅... 31 杜淦堃資深大律師:穩定架車。 32 黃思律先生:係嘞,冇錯。支撐嘅腳喇,佢開出嚟要有10 米闊嘅距離,咁大家可以想像到 33 10 米係一個咩嘢概念?其實等於四條行車線,香港其實冇乜地方可以有呢個咁嘅空 34 間畀我哋可以開得到出嚟。所以同埋仲有根本上佢架車亦都重,亦都大,好多道路 35 都行唔到,所以我哋香港係冇使用。即使係講緊我哋譬如內地,我知道有一部喺呢 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十二天

62 本謄本由Epiq 編製 個深圳,佢都係劃定咗固定嘅路線係畀佢使用,好有限,舊區係完全唔可以進入。 1 所以本身如果我哋單單依賴話鋼梯去做滅火嘅話,其實永遠都有一個物理嘅限制, 2 因為今日我哋面對宏福苑嘅樓就係講緊30 層樓咁高,但係如果我哋講緊ICC 係講 3 緊百幾層樓,所以由始至終,喺嗰個內部救援,同埋依賴番佢本身嘅消防系統,係 4 我哋即係滅火救援嘅最大、最緊要嘅策略嚟。 5 杜淦堃資深大律師:另外,有一啲講法就係話既然係竹棚著火,消防處係咪應該早啲去拆除 6 咗嗰啲燃燒嘅竹棚,防止個火勢蔓延。你都有交代過呢一個做法嘅困難,或者你想 7 唔想同大家解釋一下? 8 黃思律先生:好呀。當日嘅環境就係如果燒咗嘅竹棚或者受火警波及竹棚,其實佢都已經跌 9 咗落嚟。因為竹棚其實大家都知道喇,其實佢點樣可以相連住,就係中間有條索 10 帶,竹棚雖然係耐火,即係相對耐火,佢都會燒得著,但係其實嗰啲索帶一燒就 11 斷,所以其實佢哋就已經波及到嗰啲就已經跌晒落嚟,未波及嗰啲,即係話簡嚟 12 講,佢未跌落嚟㗎,如果我哋貿貿然將佢全部拆除,扯晒落去地面,就會產生我頭 13 先所講即係嗰個情況就係,根本會阻礙咗我哋自己嘅工作。而且我亦都唔知道如果 14 咁樣去拆除佢哋落嚟嘅時候究竟會唔會對周圍嘅人士造成影響,所以我哋當其時考 15 慮個緩急先後,我哋決定有得佢喺嗰個位置裏面,儘量唔好搞佢,因為冇呢個必要 16 其實。我哋只要移除咗阻住咗我哋--打通咗我哋入去嗰啲樓宇嘅嗰條路,我覺得就 17 已經足夠。 18 杜淦堃資深大律師:因為你明顯地有考慮過好多當日救火嘅策略或者救火嘅儀器,或者溝通 19 嘅問題,而你都係一位高級嘅消防處裏面嘅管理層嘅人員,所以我想問一問你呢條 20 問題。 21 黃思律先生:係。 22 杜淦堃資深大律師:你已經考慮咗好多方案喺將來係去避免我哋遇到宏福苑嘅事情,喺救火 23 或者動用科技呢方面可以點樣去進步,我亦都同你探討咗有啲嘅問題,我都想畀個 24 機會你去講一講,有冇其他方面你覺得經歷過今次事件之後,你覺得你哋應該係重 25 點去研究或者再去優化嘅? 26 黃思律先生:其實喺一路其實我哋都有諗,即係到到今日,由事件發生到而家,我哋都不停 27 問自己,我哋有啲乜嘢可以再做得好啲呢?我發現好多方面,好多細節位我哋都可 28 以做得好啲,但係總括嚟講,頭先即係阿杜資深大狀亦都提咗,就係科技方面嘅應 29 用,我哋其實都可以再進一步去諗一諗,睇下有咩嘢可以做得到。其次,行動嘅優 30 次上面,可能當中我哋有一啲即係改善嘅空間,我哋都會諗。溝通上面,喺我哋接 31 call 呀,同市民嘅溝通嗰方面都可以。但係純粹我個人嘅感受,即係我自己本身 32 亦都係災難應變隊嘅成員,我亦都親身去過土耳其。面對住一個咁大嘅災難,我哋 33 作為一個嘅救援隊伍,有陣時都好抱歉,我哋可以做嘅嘢都係好有限,我哋都係血 34 肉之軀。當然我哋會繼續點樣改善嘅地方,但係如果你真係問我改善,我覺得應該 35 由預防嗰度著手,唔係等件事發生咗先嚟諗點樣做,我哋盡晒力去做,但係個結果 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十二天

63 本謄本由Epiq 編製 並唔係好似我哋諗咁理想。 1 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋見到所有嘅證據,其實當日負責救火救人嘅同事其實好明顯地都係 2 盡力去做嘅。喺呢度我哋都想多謝你哋。主席我冇其他嘅問題。 3 陸啟康法官:有冇其他涉事方?冇嘅話,請孫大律師。 4 孫靖乾資深大律師:唔該主席,唔該兩位委員。係,黃Sir,我淨係有兩個方面嘅問題,想 5 同你再去問一問。 6 黃思律先生:係。 7 孫靖乾資深大律師:咁第一個就係,今朝杜資深大律師就問過你,關於一啲警方佢哋處理 8 999 call 嘅其中一個嘅一個指引或者程序,咁我想你去睇一睇,就喺呢個WS2/ 9 第1144 頁嘅,係,你記得就我未同你睇之前,就杜大律師就同你講過,你都確認 10 一般嚟講,即係嗰個警察佢哋處理999 call 嘅同事,佢收到嗰個求助嘅電話之後 11 呢,如果係同嗰個火警係有關呢,其實佢係應該都係第一時間就係去駁畀個消防 12 處,即係首先會做呢樣嘢,就唔係會再問一啲其他更多嘅資料嘅。 13 黃思律先生:係。 14 孫靖乾資深大律師:呢度我都想同你睇番,就係嗰個--當然,我知道呢個唔係消防處嘅一個 15 指引,即係呢個係警方佢哋所出嘅。但係我想你睇一睇第3 段,第3 段就係--首 16 先,我就想你睇一睇,第一個就係話,佢呢度講就話(English Spoken)(如 17 果個求助者就話係一個受傷嘅意外發生咗,或者係有一個火災,或者要求援助,要 18 求救護車,咁個求助者就會被即刻係轉駁㗎嘞),即係意思即係話如果有一個嘅救 19 助嘅人士,佢哋係話係有一啲嘅情況係即係譬如話係有一個(English 20 Spoken),即係有啲意外係有人受傷亦都或者係有火災,又或者佢哋係需要一啲 21 嘅救護車或者係一個救火車等等嘅情況,就會係個警察同事就會同佢講,就會係即 22 刻就會同佢講,亦都係會駁畀呢個嘅即係消防處或者係即係救護嗰方面。 23 黃思律先生:係。 24 孫靖乾資深大律師:即係呢度就係咁講嘅,係嘞。呢個亦都係你理解,其實一般嘅程序嚟 25 講,佢哋都應該係咁樣做? 26 黃思律先生:係。 27 孫靖乾資深大律師:係,咁然後我哋見到就係跟住如果你睇番同一段,同一段佢講咗啲其他 28 嘅同樣內容之後,然之後佢就係話最屘兩行就係話(English Spoken)(嗰個 29 接線生就會係問番嗰個打電話嘅人嘅資料先至係收線嘅),咁我想問下呢度就係 30 話,其實佢喺轉駁咗畀消防處之後呢,咁其實佢呢個第3 段都有繼續講呢,就係話 31 其實嗰個接聽個999 call 熱線嘅同事亦可以再問多啲嘅information 或者問 32 一啲details。我想問呢個係你嘅理解係咪即係呢個都會係有咁樣嘅情況,同埋係 33 咪即係話喺等待緊呢個消防處接聽嘅電話嘅嗰個時間,其實警察嘅同事佢亦都可以 34 利用嗰個時間係問一啲問題? 35 黃思律先生:可以,我呢度可以講多少少嘛? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十二天

64 本謄本由Epiq 編製 孫靖乾資深大律師:好,可以。 1 黃思律先生:其實就我頭先都講,警察同事同我哋其實都係合作無間,佢都幫助我哋好多, 2 有陣時即使係喺三人會議裏面佢都唔係即刻收線,佢都會等一等,睇下我哋嘅 3 (English Spoken ),等我哋嘅調派員係咪真係收得到,收得清楚所有嘅信 4 息。所以其實頭先聽到有警察同事佢會繼續同嗰個求助者要求佢畀資料,我一啲都 5 唔意外,我亦都覺得,如果係有陣時佢可能真係幫到我哋添。 6 孫靖乾資深大律師:好,明白,唔該晒你。跟住我就會想問你第二樣嘢,就係今朝早嘅時候 7 杜大律師都有問,就係話當時佢就同你講就係話其實係消防處嘅陳副處長就係有講 8 過,就話喺呢個16:10,即係話喺2025 年11 月26 號火災當日,4 點10 分 9 呢,佢有講到就話係針對嗰八座就係話有一個疏散嘅情況。 10 黃思律先生:係。 11 孫靖乾資深大律師:當然,即係據我嘅理解或者指示,到時陳副處長如果再作供時候我哋可 12 能再聽一聽,即係我理解就唔係話有一個即係命令係叫全部人疏散,但係我就想問 13 一問你當時喺16:10 嘅時間,你本身就未係在場嘅? 14 黃思律先生:未在場嘅。 15 杜淦堃資深大律師:未在場。所以你對當時嚟講,實際上消防處嘅指揮官當時有啲乜嘢嘅部 16 署,你就冇一個即係叫做(English Spoken)或者係一個第一手嘅信息,你就 17 唔知道嘞? 18 黃思律先生:係,冇錯。 19 杜淦堃資深大律師:好。唔該你,主席、兩位委員,我冇其他問題。 20 陸啟康法官:仲有冇覆問?冇,我諗... 21 陳健波議員:係,黃生,我想問一問你呢,即係個社會有爭論,就係話竹棚好吖,定係呢啲 22 鐵棚好,或者鐵架好喇?你個專業經驗,你覺得--你嘅判斷係點樣,或者你有咩嘢 23 意見? 24 黃思律先生:委員,你好。首先,我都想講番就係我唔係建築專業,但係如果我純粹從即係 25 救火嘅角度去睇,其實各有各好。點解呢?因為竹棚其實佢係一個相對係可燃嘅物 26 體,唔好話易燃,其實佢都唔係易燃嘅。咁但係如果個溫度足夠嘅話,其實大家今 27 次都見到係真係燒得著嘅。咁但係如果你話鐵嘅話,佢咪燒唔著囉,但係其實佢都 28 會喺高溫嘅時間,嗰個結構會受影響,會彎、會拗,而且佢嘅重量比竹棚更加誇張 29 嘅。所以如果真係有咁嘅情況,可能佢比起竹棚造成嘅危險更加大。咁所以我哋不 30 能一概而論。 31 陳健波議員:頭先,你剛才有講過嗰個索帶令到嗰啲竹棚係會鬆脫,即係好易燒得著。 32 黃思律先生:係。 33 陳健波議員:但係我亦都見到啲搭棚嘅人係用嗰啲竹嘅竹條呀。 34 黃思律先生:係。 35 陳健波議員:因為竹條第一,佢有柔韌性,另外佢都比較容易防火。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十二天

65 本謄本由Epiq 編製 黃思律先生:係。 1 陳健波議員:你覺得係咪應該用番竹條或者要求一定要用嘅,就唔好用膠帶,因為膠帶好明 2 顯膠帶一燒一焫就松一松,就一定跌架嘛,啱唔啱? 3 黃思律先生:其實我自己就冇一個咁樣嘅研究,究竟係講緊用竹條好吖,定咩嘢好,因為我 4 諗所有嘢都係基於一個科學論證,我諗真係要試一試究竟嗰個可燃性邊個好啲先至 5 可以作到決定。其次就係本身我哋都--以往我哋冇諗過其實係會咁樣去--有一咁大 6 嘅(English Spoken),因為本身佢哋係有standard。即係不論棚網又好, 7 點都好,一個工地都好,佢本身有個standard。所以我哋經過今次之後都係會吸 8 取教訓,再諗一諗,睇下有咩嘢方法可以做好少少。 9 陳健波議員:仲有一個問題就係話呢,你證供都有講呀,即係市民都有問話,點解唔--或者 10 要求廣東省去幫手,或者深圳咁樣,你入面都有講,或者可唔可以同大家講講。 11 黃思律先生:好。其實晚上大概--26 號嘅晚上10 鐘喥,我哋籨--即係我嘅同事話畀我 12 聽,其實廣東省佢哋就喺個邊境聚集咗,大概100 人喥,20 輛嘅消防車。有個討 13 論嘅,就係話我哋需唔需要叫佢哋嚟幫手呢?或者我講番當其時個情況,其實我哋 14 嗰一刻呢,我哋現場調配咗同事有980 名,另外,我哋即係--其實相等於我哋五 15 級火警嘅八倍人手。980 名其實都未耗盡我哋即係消防員嘅,我哋每一日返工有大 16 概1700 名嘅消防員,即係簡單嚟講,如果我覺得仲需要人手嘅話,其實我哋都仲 17 可以調配到去現場。不過,之前嘅討論都講咗,現場其實所有嘅位置都擺晒消防車 18 咁滯,再多啲人手亦都未必可以上到樓,因為當其時個情況好惡劣。所以喺呢個咁 19 嘅考慮之下,其實我哋再搵內地嘅同事幫手,首先人力上面我哋冇呢個需要,其實 20 喺技術上面,或者喺工具上面都有一個唔能夠即係互相去-- 英文係(English 21 Spoken),即係唔(English Spoken),即係不相融嘅情況發生。舉個例, 22 即係譬如話佢哋用嘅呼吸輔助器同我哋又唔同,去到佢哋總會啲氣樽會用盡㗎嘛, 23 如果真係嚟到嘅話,咁佢可唔可以用到我哋嘅氣樽呢?我哋能唔能夠補給到畀佢 24 呢?嚟到係一大疑問。其實就係佢亦都唔熟悉我哋香港嘅樓宇嘅消防系統。佢哋嗰 25 個接頭同我哋香港係唔同。咁嚟到嘅話,佢又要加裝其他嘅接頭上去,仲要加上就 26 係佢唔係一個好良好嘅環境,嗰陣時係冇晒燈,火場係黑𠵼𠵼,乜都睇唔到,佢要 27 靠摸佢先可以摸到。咁喺呢個情況之下,其實你叫佢哋嚟又要重新去適應嗰個新嘅 28 系統點樣用亦都有困難。加上其實本身我哋個行動指引都會有唔同。譬如話我哋遇 29 事嘅時候,今次好不幸我哋同事用咗(English Spoken)呢個咁嘅信號,但係 30 內地係唔係呢個訊號嘅,佢哋用普通話講(普通話:「呼救,呼救」),所以其實 31 本身已經喺個通訊上面,喺個環境咁多嘈雜嘅情況之下,我哋已經好難聽清楚啲 32 嘢,如果佢仲用一種我哋唔熟悉嘅語言去講,其實我哋都未必能夠即時知道究竟原來係 33 咪真係有個咁嘅情況會發生。 34 我再舉多個例,譬如話我哋緊急疏散,我哋其實有個響笛嘅,我哋個響笛係嗰 35 個響法係長響,而佢哋係會分段響。所以喺呢個情況之下,亦都會造成即係真係要 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十二天

66 本謄本由Epiq 編製 疏散嘅時候都會有誤會,我講嘅疏散係講緊我哋嘅工作人員要緊急撤離呢一種疏 1 散。 2 所以基於種種嘅原因,其實我哋覺得宏福苑呢一個個案上面,我哋未 3 (English Spoken)去叫內地嘅同業去幫手。但係當然,亦都有人質疑就係話 4 「其實你哋有一個叫所謂三地嘅,即係粵港澳三方嘅協定個喎,點解冇叫佢哋幫 5 手?」因為其實我哋呢一個協定係分階段,我哋首階段主要都係集中於我哋一啲天 6 然災害,譬如話地震、水浸、水災呢啲咁嘅情況,火警方面我哋都會包含,但係喺 7 較後嘅階段,我哋仲未去對接嘅好多嘢都,正如頭先所講嗰啲不相融嘅地方,我哋 8 仲未去互相配合,我哋未來亦都會就住呢個方向,睇下儘快去推快啲第二個階段, 9 務求令到如果真係有咁嘅case,好--即係我當然唔希望有,如果咁不幸真係再次 10 有咁嘅情況,我哋可以用到兩岸三地--sorry,係應該粵港澳三地嘅支援,呢個我 11 哋長遠嘅方向。 12 陳健波議員:我其實問過另外一條問題,我而家想都問,因為你真係專家喺救援、裝備,就 13 係個氧氣樽即係好似好多年都冇改善過,都係用到半個鐘喥,咁咁耐有冇諗過咩嘢 14 方法去改善?因為嗰個真係好關鍵嗰個。 15 黃思律先生:首先,即係委員,唔好意思,我想即係再更正番少少,我哋係有改善嘅。其實 16 呢一種咁嘅呼吸輔助器,尤其是係即係對於我哋嚟講係至關緊要嘅一個工具,生產 17 商又好,各地嘅消防隊都好,其實不斷都有研究同埋更新,我哋最近已經更新咗一 18 套新嘅即係呼吸輔助器。 19 但係正如即係好似陳委員所講,點解嚟嚟去去都係三十幾分鐘?其實基本上我 20 諗係有啲物理上面嘅限制,因為嗰個樽其實係一啲壓縮嘅空氣嚟嘅,現時我哋嘅物 21 料,我哋一般嘅呢一啲咁嘅空氣樽嘅,好多人話係氧氣樽,其實佢唔係氧氣嚟嘅, 22 佢係我哋普通吸嘅空氣,不過加壓咗,擺咗落個樽裏面,佢就大概嗰個壓力有大氣 23 壓力嘅三百倍咁多,即係話個樽佢可以承受到大氣壓力嘅三百倍。四百得唔得?如 24 果四百多啲,佢咪可以措多啲氣,咁我哋咪可以用耐啲,但係其實而家用嘅物料佢 25 個極限,或者我哋唔好叫極限,一個理想嘅一個壓力大概係三百(English 26 Spoken)喥,所以目前為止,我哋都只可以喺嗰個工作嘅時數,大概去到三--最 27 多去到三十三分鐘,咁視乎嗰個人嗰個吸氣量,即係如果佢越緊張,越體力勞動得 28 多,佢自然就會耗得--即係耗氣嘅時間就會快咗,嗰個樽又會用得短咗。 29 咁可唔可以用兩個樽?可以嘅,我哋亦都有即係一啲雙樽嘅呼吸輔助器,但係 30 就通常唔會喺上樓嘅時間用,因為點解,雙樽嘅輔助器簡單嚟講即係佢個重量重 31 咗,我個同事雖然佢可以吸耐咗氣,但係佢用嘅體能又多咗,簡單嚟講,即係話佢 32 又會吸多咗氣,互相抵銷之下,加上佢其實喺裏面亦都冇咁靈活去做嘢,掗住--根 33 本連道門都未入到,所以呢啲咁嘅雙樽通常喺咩嘢情況會發生、會使用?喺隧道嗰 34 啲,隧道救火我哋會使用,但係上樓我哋通常都係孭番單樽,呢個亦都係應該全世 35 界嘅趨勢--唔係趨勢,應該係一貫嘅做法嚟。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十二天

67 本謄本由Epiq 編製 陳健波議員:好,唔該晒。 1 歐陽伯權博士:黃Sir ,我想你跟進下,你今日提咗好多次科技即係呢個(English 2 Spoken),你可唔可以同我哋分享下,喺科技方面,而家我哋消防處有啲點樣嘅 3 諗法?點解我問呢個問題,我哋今朝用咗好多時間去講999,大家都知道,好似你 4 都講咗幾次多一秒鐘都多一秒鐘。 5 黃思律先生:係。 6 歐陽伯權博士:所以喺科技方面,由而家即係大家都知道,科技已經叫做日新月異,咁喺而 7 家你哋嘅角度,有啲乜嘢嘅--或者你可唔可以同我哋分享多啲,喺你哋而家暫時嘅 8 分析裏面,有啲乜嘢我哋可以考慮下嘅?唔該。 9 黃思律先生:或者我講番我哋而家即係最--就住最前沿科技嗰個研究先,或者我亦都係集中 10 喺嗰個滅火救援方面。其實我哋啱啱亦都引進咗兩台嘅滅火機械人。其實佢唔係一 11 個人形嘅機器人嚟嘅,佢係一個類似坦克嘅一個咁嘅即係機械嘅一個工具,okay。 12 咁我哋不嬲都有嘅,其實滅火機械人都比較早引進,如果大家有印象,屯門燒過一 13 條電纜橋,我哋亦都出動咗滅火機械人,咁點解今次唔用?今次我哋有去現場,不 14 過佢本身個體積比較大,因為當其時嘅科技佢亦都唔能夠做得太細,因為如果唔係 15 佢拖唔到條喉,亦都冇嗰個能力可以進入到火場。 16 而家我哋就啱啱採購咗一部--其實喺宏福苑之前,其實我哋已經採購緊㗎嘞, 17 咁就有兩部比較細啲嘅滅火機械人,佢有足夠嘅力量可以拖喉入去單位裏面,而且 18 比較窄嘅樓梯亦都上得到,咁務求就係有啲情況,其實我哋都有講過就係話,嗰個 19 當其時個室內溫度太高,我哋未必可以入到去,我哋就可以派呢啲咁嘅滅火機械人 20 入去。 21 咁其次就仲有話無人機,其實無人機我哋好多使用嘅,不過就唔係救呢個即係 22 (English Spoken),唔係一個樓宇火警,而家我哋使用緊嘅,最新都研究緊 23 就係,已經試行緊㗎嘞,就喺一啲比較近郊嘅地方,我哋有一啲自動嘅無人機嘅巡 24 航,即係話佢自己有個無人機嘅機場,自己部機係會set 定咗時間,會自動係起- 25 -即係飛去唔同嘅地方,去監測有冇山火或者有冇火警等等。 26 另外,我哋亦都有無人船,無人船就更加即係會係即係比我哋嘅滅火靈活得 27 多,我哋嘅即係前線同事未必可以去到--即係未必需要去到現場嘅時間,我哋嗰個 28 無人船就已經可以做到滅火嘅工作。其實我哋不斷都有呢啲咁嘅新科技去引入嘅, 29 咁呢啲係一啲嘅例子,其實我哋之後都會做即係不同嘅研究。 30 歐陽伯權博士:唔該,唔該。 31 陸啟康法官:有冇?係想覆問,係咪? 32 杜淦堃資深大律師:有一點想你補充一下嘅,因為本來係計畫係問你另外一位同事嘅,但係 33 既然問咗關於唔叫深圳嘅消防員落嚟支援嗰個問題。如果我聽你嘅答案,其實可唔 34 可以咁講?其實嗰日個問題,第一,唔係唔夠消防員? 35 黃思律先生:係。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十二天

68 本謄本由Epiq 編製 杜淦堃資深大律師:係夠嘅? 1 黃思律先生:夠嘅。 2 杜淦堃資深大律師:所以多啲人、多啲車嚟,其實個出發點係似乎幫唔到,可唔可以咁講? 3 黃思律先生:唔係人嘅問題。 4 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔係人嘅問題,係。第二,就係你頭先講到語言嘅障礙,我聽你個講法 5 就唔係本身溝通嘅語言,係個技術語言唔同,可唔可以咁講? 6 黃思律先生:係。 7 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,因為你頭先講到(English Spoken)嗰個例子,我相信你哋有 8 好多用開嘅術語,每個地方都唔一樣? 9 黃思律先生:冇錯。 10 杜淦堃資深大律師:第三,就係我個--通訊問題,因為都有證據講過就係話,其實你哋用 11 (English Spoken),用嗰個通訊系統溝通,佢哋應該唔係用同一套系統嘅? 12 黃思律先生:係,冇錯。 13 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,所以亦都溝通唔到嘅,你哋都,可唔可以咁講? 14 黃思律先生:唔可以直接--冇錯。 15 杜淦堃資深大律師:或者要--有啲障礙嘅會? 16 黃思律先生:冇錯,唔可以直接溝通。 17 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔該晒你,冇其他,多謝。 18 陸啟康法官:有冇?政府方面有冇?冇。Okay,咁我諗黃Sir,我諗其實聽咗啲證供,我都 19 相信其實今次宏福苑大火真係你哋都--係一個史無前例嘅一個好大嘅挑戰,咁我亦 20 都相信即係以後消防方面其實都一定會做好多自己內部嘅檢討,同埋我諗都一定係 21 會呢個最新嘅科技去協調嘅,咁呢樣嘢我哋就交畀你哋去做,因為你哋係專家。 22 黃思律先生:係,明白。 23 陸啟康法官:咁當然,亦都係我哋今朝問到你哋好多關於嗰啲溝通嘅問題,其實我哋都知道 24 好多同事都好盡咗力,同埋好多嘢真係冇辦法好多指引可以寫得到嘅。當然,我哋 25 都會留意得到就係999,因為999,我哋香港係得一個電話嘅啫,所以其實喺消防 26 同埋嗰個警方方面嘅配合,呢個係重要嘅。咁我相信你哋今次之後亦都會檢討。 27 黃思律先生:係。 28 陸啟康法官:咁我亦都喺度想再講多次,亦都再重複一次,其實市民對前線嘅消防人員嗰日 29 嘅努力係非常之欣慰嘅,同埋感謝嘅,亦都有--真係有啲受災人士係因為佢哋嗰日 30 佢哋嘅999 或者消防你哋嘅同事callback,令到佢哋係安慰嘅,咁亦都喺呢個 31 聽證會入面係好多即係表達咗佢哋嘅謝意,咁我都好希望你哋可以將呢一樣嘢話番 32 畀你哋嘅前線嘅工作人員知道。 33 陸啟康法官:咁今日好多謝你今日作供,黃Sir,你可以走。 34 黃思律先生:唔該晒,thank you。 35

36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十二天

69 本謄本由Epiq 編製 14 時55 分消防處副消防總長(行動支援及專業發展)證人黃思律先生作供完畢 1 14 時55 分香港警務處傷亡查詢中心主管證人曾淑賢女士開始作供 2

3 杜淦堃資深大律師:主席,下一位協助我哋嘅證人係曾淑賢總警司。(English 4 Spoken),你好,你面前有份聲明,麻煩你讀一讀出嚟先。 5 曾淑賢女士:好,本人曾淑賢聲明,本人所作的證供,盡本人所知、所悉及所信,均屬真 6 實。 7 杜淦堃資深大律師:麻煩你請坐。 8 曾淑賢女士:好,唔該。 9 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋知道你係98 年加入警隊,係2022 年晉升為總警司,係咪? 10 曾淑賢女士:冇錯。 11 杜淦堃資深大律師:負責係管理投訴同埋內部調查課? 12 曾淑賢女士:係,冇錯。 13 杜淦堃資深大律師:係。你之前都畀委員會提交咗一份嘅證供,我相信你都會確認內容係準 14 確? 15 曾淑賢女士:確認。 16 杜淦堃資深大律師:喺火災當日,你係負責指揮傷亡調查中心? 17 曾淑賢女士:係,冇錯。 18 杜淦堃資深大律師:喺--根據你哋--你嘅口供第20 段所講,喺當日下午17:36 時,你係 19 受到警務處助理處長莊定賢嘅通知,就宏福苑呢件事件被列為重大事件(English 20 Spoken),咁就獲指示啟動呢個傷亡嘅查詢中心,CEU,我哋叫佢做。 21 曾淑賢女士:好,冇錯。 22 杜淦堃資深大律師:係。或者好讓大家去了解呢個決定,其實警方係用咩嘢基準去決定一件 23 事係咪一個重大事件,(English Spoken),可唔可以解一解畀大家聽? 24 曾淑賢女士:唔該晒杜大律師,或者可唔可以有少少時間都我解釋一下CEU 其實係點樣去成 25 立?好短時間。 26 杜淦堃資深大律師:當然可以,我諗住之後問你。 27 曾淑賢女士:好的。係,因為其實CEU 就並不是一個恒常嘅機關嚟,咁當如果有一啲災難, 28 或者一啲事件,我哋嘅行動處嘅助理處長佢正式(English Spoken )為一個 29 (English Spoken)嘅時間,CEU 就會被動員,佢嘅人員嘅組成就係來自投訴 30 警察課同埋我哋嘅(English Spoken),即係警察學院入面嘅一啲嘅同事。呢 31 啲嘅成員,即係CEU 嘅成員係有受過(English Spoken)嘅,咁每年有兩次, 32 就介紹番即係如果真係要動員嘅時間,去點樣去營運呢一個嘅傷亡查詢中心。 33 咁而CEU 佢正常嘅程序嚟講,嗰個主管就係投訴警察課嘅高級警司,但係我哋 34 去番當日,即係呢一個上年嘅11 月26 號,咁當時其實下晝四點零鐘我哋都收到一 35 個(English Spoken)嘅,行動部就通知我哋話大埔宏福苑有一場嘅大火,咁 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十二天

70 本謄本由Epiq 編製 都好嚴重,所以有機會CEU 係可能會被動員嘅。所以當時我哋就即刻check 番 1 (English Spoken),如果要動員嘅時間,係邊一隊嘅同事係會負責做第一個 2 call 去成立呢個中心,跟住就係我哋投訴警察課嘅港島辦事處,咁呢個辦事處嘅 3 同事佢哋返工嘅地方喺青衣。咁無論如何,到到17:36 分,就正式係被通知呢個 4 CEU 係要成立。 5 咁頭先杜大律師你問到我,基於啲乜嘢嘅考慮去決定乜嘢時間去做呢個--即係 6 成立呢個CEU 咁樣,咁其實我都想強調,呢個傷亡查詢中心其實係一個查詢中心嚟 7 嘅,因為我哋都理解到每一次一啲嘅重大嘅事件,除咗現場會有消防或者警察做緊 8 唔同嘅救援工作,或者一啲疏散,道路嘅改道,或者係確保啲交通暢通等等之外, 9 屋企人都會擔心嘅。所以呢一個中心嘅成立最主要就係畀屋企人或者朋友,去了解 10 傷者同埋死者嘅情況嘅,嗰個(English Spoken)嘅,係,呢個就係嗰個成立 11 嘅原因。 12 所以我諗我哋嘅指揮官,即係我哋嘅行動處嘅助理處長,係有好多唔同嘅考 13 量,嗰件事嘅(English Spoken),發展成點樣,現場嘅救援工作,牽涉有可 14 能傷亡嘅人數係咪去到嗰個(English Spoken)。 15 譬如我想畀一個例子就係其實我哋CEU 再對上一次成立已經係2018 年,當時 16 係大埔公路嘅車禍,係,當--嗰件事件係死咗十九個人,同埋傷咗六十五人,我哋 17 CEU 係運作咗兩天。咁而再對上一次就係2012 年嘅南丫海難,咁當時係有三十九 18 人過身,亦都有九十二人受傷,CEU 係成立咗七個工作天。 19 所以係即係好睇嗰個(English Spoken)嗰件事嘅,咁當然我諗大家都同 20 意今次宏福苑嘅大火講緊喺我哋電視畫面見到,好快已經係涉及咗六、七座咁,講 21 緊係一千七百三十幾戶,所以都預計到嗰個傷亡嘅情況係嚴峻嘅,所以就當時喺5 22 點36 分嘅時間被通知正式去成立呢個中心。 23 杜淦堃資深大律師:當然,你頭先都同我哋解釋清楚,其實有一個主要嘅目的係可能係有啲 24 家屬佢要做一啲嘅查詢,咁呢個你哋負責。你哋CEU 裏面係分咗做六隊? 25 曾淑賢女士:唔嗯。 26 杜淦堃資深大律師:你可唔可以都解釋一下嗰六隊嘅工作? 27 曾淑賢女士:好的,其實我哋譬如當日,我成立咗呢個嘅(English Spoken)之後,咁 28 我嘅人手就大約係五十人左右,咁我就會分配佢哋係有叫做六個小隊,咁一 29 (English Spoken)嘅(English Spoken)其實就係協助我去做好多唔同 30 嘅調配,同埋一啲嘅(English Spoken)上面嘅安排。 31 另外,就有個叫做(English Spoken),咁就係因為我哋成立呢個中心, 32 第一時間亦都會安排有一條熱線嘅,咁呢條熱線就係1878999 ,我哋喺即係 33 17:36 分被通知要(English Spoken),一個鐘頭之內就係18:32 分,我哋 34 就成立咗呢條熱線,跟住亦都經過我哋嘅公關部通知咗,即係向晒咁多嘅媒體,咁 35 通知咗警方係成立咗呢條熱線,供家屬或者朋友去查詢今次死傷者嘅情況,所以有 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十二天

71 本謄本由Epiq 編製 一(English Spoken )嘅同事就係專門係聽電話嘅,咁呢個(English 1 Spoken )-- 即係(English Spoken ),呢條熱線其實最多可以有三十個 2 (English Spoken)去聽嘅,咁當時我嘅決定亦都係因應住當時啲(English 3 Spoken)嘅情況,我開咗十條--十個(English Spoken)去負責聽電話。 4 好,另外就係當聽電話,其實就係好多市民就會打嚟查詢,可能佢想搵一個 5 人,而家搵唔到,或者係佢知道佢個朋友應該住喺上址,有啲係屋企人嚟嘅,肯定 6 佢住喺上址,不過而家搵唔到等等,唔同類型都有嘅,咁我哋啲同事--聽電話嘅同 7 事收到有關嘅資訊之後,就會係做個紀錄,跟住就會交畀我另一(English 8 Spoken)嘅同事就係一個(English Spoken)。 9 因為打電話上嚟嘅人有啲係查詢,有啲想報失,大部分其實如果真係搵一啲屋 10 企人,或者知道喺上址住,佢哋已經打咗999 嘅。但係都有一啲嘅個案,我 11 (English Spoken)番個紀錄,有五宗嘅個案佢哋應該係未打999,所以但係 12 我哋都覺得有少少(English Spoken)嘅,咁我就會通知番我哋嘅新界北總區 13 嘅同事,同埋大埔警署嘅同事等等。所以就係聽電話係第一(English 14 Spoken),跟住做嗰個嘅少少分流,我叫做,第二(English Spoken)。 15 咁亦都仲有另外幾(English Spoken )就包括係要做(English 16 Spoken ),因為我哋收到嘅資料係會入落一啲嘅電腦系統嘅,咁亦都有做 17 (English Spoken),亦都係一個幾大嘅--我會擺咗幾多嘅人手落去,因為電 18 話查詢係一部分,其實當時我哋嘅CEU 係收到好大量唔同嘅資訊係喺地面嗰度 19 (English Spoken )畀我哋,包括係咩嘢,當日係陸續成立咗七個嘅 20 (English Spoken),一啲臨時嘅庇護中心,好讓一啲已經係疏散咗落嚟嘅居 21 民有個地方去休息或者等候進一步嘅安排,咁嗰度其實係有好多已經安全嘅居民係 22 落咗去。 23 所以喺今次嘅行動入面,我哋要知道究竟宏福苑涉案呢七座一千三百六十戶, 24 有幾多個(English Spoken)係安全,齊唔齊啲人,等等,我哋就變咗亦都有 25 同事喺地嗰度係要逐個市民去問「你係來自邊個單位嘅,你屋企人齊唔齊,如果唔 26 齊嘅,仲有幾多人喺上面」等等,呢個係其中一個資訊嘅來源,即係喺(English 27 Spoken)。 28 另外就係醫院,因為都有好多唔同嘅傷者係送咗去唔同嘅醫院,咁亦都我哋亦 29 都有同事係喺醫院嗰度去睇下有邊啲相信係同今次(English Spoken )有關 30 嘅,去咗個醫院。當日亦都係已經有一啲嘅死者,係消防嘅同事已經係將佢移嚟去 31 咗大埔嘅社區中心,咁我哋亦都嗰度又係一方面嘅資訊。加埋亦都喺管業處--唔喺 32 管業處,應該話我哋喺社區中心,即係其中一個(English Spoken)嗰度,係 33 攞得到管業處入面嘅一啲資料,係一本手抄嘅資訊嚟嘅,就係每個單位有個人料, 34 可能蔡先生有個電話咁,有啲可能係業主,有啲可能係租客,有啲可能係一個聯絡 35 人,有啲資料可能未必最(English Spoken),但無論如何,我哋都有一啲資 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十二天

72 本謄本由Epiq 編製 料關於而家上址嘅一啲聯絡人嘅。 1 所以我哋就係要做好多排查嘅工作,頭先講一邊廂打電話上嚟查詢,咁我哋 2 (English Spoken)嘅同事,就要對究竟佢想搵嘅人,原來可能已經喺某社區 3 中心嗰度安全嘅,確認佢安全嘅,咁我哋就會(English Spoken)番呢啲資訊 4 畀番屋企人。因為我嘅指示畀啲同事都係,如果係喜訊嘅,即係話起碼係安全,又 5 或者就算係受傷嘅,呢啲資-- 即係呢啲消息我哋(English Spoken )到、 6 (English Spoken)到都要儘快通知屋企人。如果唔係喜訊,可能係已經有呢 7 個遺體喺某一層度落嚟嘅話,我哋都要好(English Spoken)地通知屋企人, 8 因為其實新界北總區佢哋亦都已經安排緊第二日,即係27 號嘅下晝3 點鐘,會喺 9 大埔嘅社區中心有一個臨時嘅相簿辨認嘅程序嘅,所以當晚陸續有一啲嘅遺骸搬移 10 落嚟嘅時間,我哋都要通知番可能嘅屋企人,咁係第二日去認一個相簿嘅程序。 11 咁如是者,就一個(English Spoken ),同時間我都有一(English 12 Spoken)係做(English Spoken )嘅,係,咁呢個係咩嘢,因為有啲市民打 13 上嚟嘅時間,佢係未必--想搵嘅人佢唔肯定佢係咪住喺宏福苑,或者一啲好耐冇 14 見,純粹係十幾年㗎嘞呢個老友,好似住大埔,咁我哋都要做排查嘅。所以我另一 15 邊廂有調查隊亦都會做啲咩嘢工作,就係我哋平時(English Spoken)嘅調查 16 工作,譬如我哋會check 番一啲入境處嘅資料,佢會唔會已經係離咗港,或者一 17 啲生死註冊處嘅資料,會唔會其實佢仲--會唔會之前已經過咗身等等,咁加埋我哋 18 自己(English Spoken)嘅(English Spoken ),所以喺今次成個嘅行動 19 入面,都的確喺我哋(English Spoken )嘅(English Spoken )嘅 20 (English Spoken),我會叫做,即係一啲失聯人士嘅報告,最後都確認咗係 21 有一百六十六人係過咗身,一百六十六,唔係一百六十八嘅原因係,最後我哋都確 22 認有兩位嘅死者屋企人佢哋係冇聯絡過我哋個熱線,咁都唔出奇,即係有啲會打完 23 999 再打熱線,有啲就直接喺地嗰度已經係搵緊佢嘅親人。咁亦都有三十七個個案 24 就係受傷嘅人士,有一百八十四人係確認咗佢安全嘅,即係經過我哋排查,同埋一 25 啲嘅調查之後,確認佢安全。亦都有三十一個嘅個案其實喺今次嘅大火之前原來已 26 經過咗身,不過佢啲朋友好耐冇搵佢,所以唔理解,咁我哋都搵番出嚟。有六個個 27 案其實已經離開咗香港,佢嘅入境紀錄顯示一早已經係離咗境。亦都有一個case 28 係誤會嚟嘅,即係我哋打番畀嗰個查詢人,其實佢唔係想報(English 29 Spoken)嘅。另外就仲有一啲嘅case 係好零碎嘅,講緊係真係查詢者佢打上嚟 30 嘅時候,都淨係想「哦,有個朋友叫阿文(譯音),好似住大埔」「有冇聯絡電 31 話?」「都冇嘞」咁,所以有三十一個個案,我哋排查晒之後,係無法跟進嘅,所 32 以大約嗰個情況就係咁。 33 杜淦堃資深大律師:其實你頭先講嗰啲資料,我哋見到係同事係製作咗個列表喺WS2/1194 34 頁嘅,我相信你熟悉呢個表,頭先你講嘅唔同嘅個案,即係唔同嘅種類,其實個資 35 料就喺呢度我哋會睇到嘅。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十二天

73 本謄本由Epiq 編製 曾淑賢女士:係。 1 杜淦堃資深大律師:正如你所講,係一百六十六,因為有一百六十六個人投--或者查詢,所 2 以有兩個應該就係冇搵過你哋,所以就少咗兩個? 3 曾淑賢女士:冇錯。 4 杜淦堃資深大律師:另外我哋見到其實--有好多我哋見到係重複咗嘅,重複咗個原因相信就 5 係因為多過一個求助嘅個案,係關於同一個人嘅? 6 曾淑賢女士:冇錯。 7 杜淦堃資深大律師:另外譬如我哋有一個例子就係232 去到233 咁,1201 頁,其實我哋 8 見到就係232 同233 我哋見到後來係話(English Spoken)同埋(English 9 Spoken),就係死亡嘅個案其實重複咗。 10 曾淑賢女士:唔。 11 杜淦堃資深大律師:係。你都提到有--喺你嘅口供度提到有三十一宗個案就係無法追蹤嘅, 12 因為你話--你嘅講法就係喺口供度係“(English Spoken)”,即係提供嘅資 13 料根本上唔足夠嘅,個原因係主要有兩個,第一,就係查詢嘅人畀唔夠資料,係 14 咪? 15 曾淑賢女士:係。 16 杜淦堃資深大律師:第二個,就係其實嗰個人根本上唔係住喺宏福苑? 17 曾淑賢女士:佢-- 基本上如果打上嚟查詢,佢肯定佢喺宏福苑嘅話,全部都入晒我哋 18 (English Spoken)。咁而家講緊嗰三十一宗個案就係打上嚟嘅(English 19 Spoken),即係個查詢者佢唔肯定佢想搵嘅人係住喺邊,可能一啲大埔--對上一 20 次知道佢住喺大埔,或者好似宏福苑,不過都唔肯定。咁加埋佢可能得個花名,或 21 者係電話都冇聯絡好多年嘅,咁實在有好多呢啲個案,就係即係一見到有個咁大嘅 22 災難,想搵一搵啲舊朋友,但係聯絡唔到,所以都會打上嚟。 23 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋見到有啲個案,就係譬如喺我哋見到565 號,就有啲個案就係話 24 “(English Spoken)”,呢啲係啲咩嘢嘅情況? 25 曾淑賢女士:呢啲就係當個查詢者佢打咗上嚟,咁佢好--因為我諗當時嘅情況就係都比較急 26 地,大家就係想搵佢想搵嘅人,咁知道我哋有條熱線,電話上咗嚟,但係轉個頭佢 27 已經-- 我哋聯絡番佢嘅時間,哦,原來佢搵得番佢個朋友,咁亦都有呢啲咁嘅 28 (English Spoken),所以佢就唔係要做一個報失嘅個案,都有嘅。 29 杜淦堃資深大律師:MP 即係(English Spoken)? 30 曾淑賢女士:MP 即係(English Spoken)。 31 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想之後問一問你哋當日個工作,同埋同消防處嗰個溝通,因為市民會 32 知道有唔嘅同渠道,有唔同嘅電話可以打。咁頭先聽你咁講,其實係有啲係冇打過 33 999 嘅你知道,咁就變咗佢哋就唔知道,呢個你哋係會點樣轉交番畀消防處? 34 曾淑賢女士:或者我咁樣講,呢一個熱線我哋喺下晝嘅18 點32 分,頭先講,經過公關部通 35 知社會嘅所有嘅市民,咁嘅時候我哋都清楚講明,呢個電話係供市民去查詢,就住 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十二天

74 本謄本由Epiq 編製 今次嘅火災嘅死傷嘅情況,係,呢個唔係一個緊急嘅求助熱線嚟嘅。 1 但係雖然係咁,咁我哋都會有一啲電話講緊係由26 號嘅,頭先講18:32 分, 2 去到我睇到27 號,呢兩日入面,有五隻case 我哋嘅聽電話嘅同事,因為我每個- 3

4 Spoken)嘅。咁就發覺,譬如我講番一啲嘅例子,有一個個案係有一個女士佢係 5 住喺宏新閣,佢已經係離開咗個單位,不過佢打上嚟個熱線,就係因為佢有隻貓貓 6 仲喺上面,所以佢想睇下我哋點樣可以幫到佢咁。 7 又或者有另外四個 case-- 三個 case ,都係市民佢喺(English 8 Spoken)或者喺一啲網上嘅頻道見到好似宏昌閣有某啲嘅單位仲有人求救緊喎咁 9 樣,係,佢係未打999 嘅,所以呢啲嘅case 我哋覺得係值得要通知番我哋新界北 10 總部嘅電台嘅同事,同埋大埔警署嘅同事,所以我哋就會做番個紀錄,係通知番有 11 關嘅同事嘅。 12 而我哋當然係理解消防,即係去到講緊而家係六點幾開始,其實消防嘅同事喺 13 現場已經處理咗四個鐘㗎嘞,即係其實好多999 嘅call 或者係緊急嘅救援工作, 14 或者佢哋點樣去打火,呢啲已經係努力中嘅,咁我呢邊就係查詢死傷者嘅狀態。 15 咁我亦都不能夠話,如果一個call 打嚟,佢想搵某個單位,可能佢有個朋友 16 知道㗎嘞,某某單位喺上址,我亦都唔會左手嚟,右手就交畀消防,咁樣係會 17 (English Spoken)咗佢哋嘅,調番轉我就係做咗頭先講嘅好多個(English 18 Spoken)排查,其實有機會其實佢要搵嘅人喺個(English Spoken )度嘅, 19 係。 20 所以頭先杜大狀你講嘅,就係我哋嗰五個嘅個案,我都(English 21 Spoken )咗啲同事,如果係有需要(English Spoken )嘅(English 22 Spoken),亦都了解到呢個(English Spoken)佢係緊急,但係佢未打999 23 嘅話,(English Spoken )我哋會(English Spoken )佢都應該要打 24 999,因為我哋嘅(English Spoken),我唔可以直接拍到去嗰個救援中心, 25 又或者我哋會通知番有關嘅同事。 26 杜淦堃資深大律師:或者如果我哋好簡單咁去講,的的確確有幾個個案就真係打咗畀你哋 27 先,後來我哋見番紀錄,如果對番個時間,消防處開番就呢一個人嘅紀錄係遲過你 28 哋嘅,個原因似乎就係你哋自己去核實咗嗰件事應唔應該轉介畀消防,所以就後來 29 先轉介,可唔可以咁講? 30 曾淑賢女士:你講緊嘅係會唔會有一啲嘅(English Spoken)可以畀我睇到係邊一啲嘅 31 個案? 32 杜淦堃資深大律師:如果--好,我哋不如睇一睇啲實質啲嘅例子。 33 曾淑賢女士:好。 34 杜淦堃資深大律師:譬如如果我哋去睇WS2/90,第5 號,1194 頁,你見到有--我哋喺紀 35 錄見到其實警方嘅傷亡查詢,你哋喺1841 係接獲呢個姓白嘅女士查詢個案,你見 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十二天

75 本謄本由Epiq 編製 到嘛?第四行。 1 曾淑賢女士:係。 2 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋睇番資料,消防嗰面嘅資料,消防處同日係19:39 先第一次接獲 3 宏泰閣1701 呢位人士嘅求助個案嘅。 4 曾淑賢女士:係。 5 杜淦堃資深大律師:個原因係唔係就係你頭先所講,就係可能你哋接到個求助個案,但係你 6 哋都需要啲時間去核實應唔應該交畀消防,所以唔係左手交畀右手咁去處理,定係 7 呢一個例子你講唔到? 8 曾淑賢女士:呢個例子我實在答唔到你。 9 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白。 10 曾淑賢女士:嘅原因其實我個(English Spoken)當晚係冇直接同消防處有任何交收。 11 正如頭先我講,就係因為緊急嘅case 其實一定係要由999 台佢哋再同消防嘅 12 (English Spoken )去處理,所以我呢度就係要做一啲排查嘅工作,但係 13 (English Spoken),其實呢個排查嘅工作希望杜大狀或者各位都可以理解, 14 頭先所講係好多海量一路(English Spoken )嘅資訊係(English 15 Spoken)緊上嚟嘅。因為就算喺唔同嘅臨時庇護中心,流動嘅,即係啲市民都係 16 流動,或者陸續係有人去緊唔同嘅地方,我哋不斷係有同事去收集有關嘅資料,咁 17 所以我嘅centre 一路唔同嘅時間不斷有新嘅資訊,咁所以我都正如頭先咁講儘快做 18 到一啲嘅排查,有消息通知番屋企人,呢個亦都係CEU 成立嗰個最主要原因嚟嘅, 19 希望通知到家屬有關佢哋想搵嘅傷者或者可以係死者嘅(English Spoken), 20 當時嘅狀況,係。 21 杜淦堃資深大律師:所以而我相信如果聽你咁講,如果打嚟你哋嘅(English 22 Spoken),其實應該你哋係會問咗佢有冇打999 先嘅? 23 曾淑賢女士:係嘅,係嘅,雖然呢個唔係一個(English Spoken),因為事實上我哋譬 24 如之前兩次嘅CEU,其實係傷亡查詢,通常就係嗰件事發生咗,跟住我哋就係會譬 25 如而家有個死者究竟佢嘅身份係乜嘢,又或者係查詢者佢想搵一個人會唔會喺今次 26 嘅車禍或者可能喺入面發生咗係一件事完成,但係今次係進行中嘅,所以係好 27 (English Spoken)嗰啲嘅資訊。 28 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白。 29 曾淑賢女士:係,係。 30 杜淦堃資深大律師:所以即係如果有啲個別嘅個案我哋見到可能搵咗你哋先,之後消防嗰面 31 先有紀錄,其實可能都係一個或者當事人溝通嘅問題,或者我哋而家都好難去知道 32 點解? 33 曾淑賢女士:可以咁講。 34 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢個唔係一個批評,我哋明白當時個情況係好複雜。我冇其他問題。 35 陸啟康法官:有冇涉事方?孫大律師。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十二天

76 本謄本由Epiq 編製 孫靖乾資深大律師:冇。 1 陸啟康法官:冇,我諗今日我都要講兩句。我諗呢個傷亡調查中心喺今次宏福苑一個咁大嘅 2 災難,其實喺個善後工作我諗扮演一個非常之重要嘅角色,無論你係報喜訊又好, 3 我諗報憂唔係喜訊,報優都好,我相信你哋嘅工作係幫助咗好多嘅屋企人同埋家 4 屬。咁我相信其實大眾市民對你哋今次嗰個中心嘅工作係非常之肯定嘅,喺呢度我 5 諗亦都可以代表佢哋,同你哋中心各位成員係講聲多謝,同埋我諗你哋嘅工作喺今 6 次嚟講非常之有意義嘅。多謝曾總警司你今日嚟畀嘅證供,多謝你。 7 曾淑賢女士:多謝主席。 8

9 15 時19 分香港警務處傷亡查詢中心主管證人曾淑賢女士作供完畢 10

11 陸啟康法官:我哋想休息抑或係? 12 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋可以休息,視乎主席。我諗相信下一位證人我哋係唔會好長。 13 陸啟康法官:唔需要可以繼續。 14 杜淦堃資深大律師:可以繼續,如果係咁可以。下一位證人係鄭嘉俊警司。 15 鄭Sir,你好。 16 鄭嘉俊先生:你好。 17 杜淦堃資深大律師:你前面有一個聲明,麻煩你同大家一樣讀出嚟。 18

19 15 時20 分香港警務處傷災難遇害者辨認組主管證人鄭嘉俊先生開始作供 20

21 鄭嘉俊先生:本人鄭嘉俊聲明本人所作的證供盡本人所知、所悉及所信,均屬真實。 22 杜淦堃資深大律師:麻煩你坐低,可以。鄭Sir,我哋知道你係資深嘅警務人員,你85 年 23 加入警隊,2018 年晉升為警司嘅。 24 鄭嘉俊先生:係。 25 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋知道你係(English Spoken ),即係呢個偵緝訓練中心嘅主 26 管? 27 鄭嘉俊先生:係。 28 杜淦堃資深大律師:而我諗我哋好多人喺電視見過你,因為你喺呢件事上高,你係我哋叫做 29 DVIU(English Spoken)嘅主管? 30 鄭嘉俊先生:係。 31 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁我哋大家都知道,呢個災難者遇害嘅應變組其實喺呢件事件裏面扮演 32 住一個好重要嘅角色,我都想喺呢一度首先畀個機會你去講一講解你指揮DVIU 嘅 33 工作。 34 鄭嘉俊先生:多謝杜大律師。我本身嘅職務就係呢個DVIU 嘅主管,我哋警隊嘅DVIU 係喺 35 呢個1975 年就根據呢個國際刑警嘅標準而成立。咁而係由成立到而家,當時都係 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十二天

77 本謄本由Epiq 編製 由附屬喺呢個警察學院以下嘅偵緝訓練中心,由偵測訓練嘅主管亦都會兼任呢個 1 DVIU 嘅主管,即係我而家嘅職位。我哋DVIU 嗰個成立嘅目的就最主要喺災難現 2 場裏面找尋嗰啲死難者嘅遺骸或者遺體,跟住我哋會協助我哋嘅法醫去辨認呢一啲 3 遺骸同埋遺體嘅身分係邊一位。而我哋呢一個DVIU 嘅成立,我哋重要嘅隊員都係 4 我哋偵緝訓練中心嘅教職員,跟住就呢啲其他嘅隊員就會喺我哋偵偵緝訓練中心嘅 5 標準訓練課程裏面去完成咗呢個課程嘅時間,我哋係喺呢個期間有一個訓練畀佢 6 哋,咁經過呢個訓練之後,佢哋亦都係會去做佢哋日常嘅工作返番去。而當我哋好 7 似今次咁樣宣布咗呢一個係災難事件,我哋就會召集番佢哋返嚟,去進行呢一個 8 DVIU 嘅工作。 9 杜淦堃資深大律師:你先後就呢件事情提供咗兩份供詞畀我哋,我都相信你都確認內容準 10 確,第二份就交代咗一啲可能第一份講得冇咁清楚嘅地方。 11 鄭嘉俊先生:係。 12 杜淦堃資深大律師:裏面你提到第一份第5 段,其實DVIU 係用咗一個國際刑警嘅既定方式 13 去運作,你可唔可以同我哋介紹一下其實係點樣樣?呢個既定方式。 14 鄭嘉俊先生:呢個既定方式,其實你當我哋可以分為我哋四組人,當我哋遇到有呢個事件, 15 我哋被動員嘅時間,我哋呢四組人就包括就係有一個叫做指揮中心(English 16 Spoken),咁呢個(English Spoken)佢最主要嘅工作就係將事件記錄,整 17 個事件嘅記錄,同埋同其他唔同嘅部門嗰個交流同埋資訊嘅流動,同埋喺現場直接 18 指揮我哋嘅行動。 19 另外第二個,就係喺現場我哋就會有一個叫做(English Spoken)(尋回 20 小組),呢個尋回小組佢最主要個工作就係好似個名咁講,就係佢需要喺現場裏面 21 去搜尋喺現場嘅遺骸同埋遺體。而再到另外一個隊伍就係我哋屍體收集站,就會喺 22 現場嗰度初步當我哋嘅(English Spoken)搵到一啲懷疑遺骸、遺體同埋證物 23 嘅時間,就會攞去我哋喺現場嘅一個臨時屍體收集站嗰度作一個再進一步確認同埋 24 記錄,有關於我哋搵到嘅遺骸、遺體或者一啲證物嘅準確記錄。之後我哋會將呢啲 25 遺骸、遺體送到(English Spoken)殮房。 26 杜淦堃資深大律師:殮房。 27 鄭嘉俊先生:係,我哋去殮房,咁個殮房有另外一隊人,喺嗰度就會協助法醫去確認呢一啲 28 我哋懷疑嘅遺骸、遺體人嘅身分,咁以呢一個模式去做。咁同時佢哋會同其他唔同 29 部門收集一啲相關嘅資訊,咁嚟到協助法醫點樣去辨認出呢一啲我哋懷疑遺骸、遺 30 體人嘅真實身分。 31 杜淦堃資深大律師:紀錄顯示你哋DVIU 由11 月29 號開始進行咗三次嘅搜索,第一次就 32 喺11 月29 號到12 月3 號,咁就搜查火災影響七座單位同埋公共地方,就除咗四 33 十一個有潛在危險性嘅單位嘅。 34 鄭嘉俊先生:冇錯。 35 杜淦堃資深大律師:第二次就喺12 月3 日,就搜查咗十二個第一次搜查時搵唔到遺體嘅單 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十二天

78 本謄本由Epiq 編製 位同埋之前被界定係存在危險性嘅單位,係咪? 1 鄭嘉俊先生:有少少補充嘅,嗰十二個我哋搵唔到,其實嗰個唔係搵唔到,因為喺嗰啲單位 2 裏面,其實有可能同一個單位有多過一個人喺裏面嘅,咁當有人報咗,CEU 嗰度話 3 咗畀我哋聽,嗰度仲有一個人(English Spoken)咗,即係話喺我哋或者搜救 4 裏面救到一個人,又或者我哋之前去搵嘅時間只係搵到一個懷疑遺骸或者遺體,咁 5 我哋就會再重新去番嗰度再搜,再重新再做多一次搜查,因為當我哋嘅資料發覺裏 6 面係有多過一,又或者好似頭先杜大狀你話齋,真係喺嗰個單位係有(English 7 Spoken)而我哋搵唔到,其實我哋會再返去搵。 8 咁而其實喺呢一個尋找呢啲懷疑失蹤嘅人士,其實我哋嘅工作就係希望搵晒所 9 有嘅被報失嘅人出嚟,我哋唔止係一次兩次,我哋最多嗰個--即係講我哋最後搵到 10 出嚟嗰個遺骸,我哋係五次上去,我哋係要第五次上到去,我哋用唔同嘅方式,去 11 到睇五次嘅時間,我哋係要將佢所有屋裏面大件嘅瓦礫,同埋一啲已經燒毀咗嘅譬 12 如佢啲凳、檯、電視櫃、雪櫃嗰啲我哋全部搬離呢一個單位,咁而喺個單位裏面剩 13 低我覺得係一啲灰燼,我哋跟住就喺嗰度我哋同事再用筲箕去篩番嗰啲灰燼,搵番 14 裏面嘅一啲碎骨或者一啲牙齒,種植嘅牙齒,咁樣去確保我哋嘅搜查工作係全面 15 嘅,亦都唔會有遺漏。所以喺最屘嗰次我哋即係可以搵到埋第168 號我哋嗰個死 16 者,咁就算係我哋嘅同事嘅努力,所以係搵得齊所有嘅失蹤人士。 17 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋知道搜索嘅流程裏面,如果你哋發現遺體或者疑似人體組織嘅時 18 候,係會用一個國際刑警嘅表格去記錄低相關資料。 19 鄭嘉俊先生:係。 20 杜淦堃資深大律師:或者我哋都可以等大家睇一睇,呢個我相信你哋都用咗好耐。 21 鄭嘉俊先生:係。 22 杜淦堃資深大律師:之前嘅災難如果需要出動你哋,都係用番呢個方式去做嘅,係咪? 23 鄭嘉俊先生:冇錯。 24 杜淦堃資深大律師:你可唔可以講一講個流程畀我哋聽你哋係點做?就呢份表格嚟講。 25 鄭嘉俊先生:其實呢一份表格係我哋講嘅(English Spoken)嘅form,咁呢一份form 26 其實當我哋搵到嗰個遺體嘅時間,我哋會係會影佢哋啲相,我哋會有啲影咗相之 27 後,仲有我哋會填一啲(English Spoken),當嗰個屍體嘅時間--個遺體,咁 28 我哋會將包括埋喺佢身邊我哋搵到相關同佢個我哋叫做(English Spoken), 29 搵到嗰啲嘅時間,我哋就會將佢連埋個遺體嗰度一齊包,我哋用個屍袋袋袋起佢, 30 跟住將呢啲相關資料我哋會填咗喺呢個(English Spoken)嗰度,跟住之後我 31 哋就會喺個屍體嗰度會有一個(English Spoken),跟住喺個屍袋嘅外面有一 32 個(English Spoken),跟住我哋再會有另外一個麻包袋,咁係為咗保存個屍 33 體,再會有一個(English Spoken )嘅,咁呢一啲就會係我哋喺現場愛嚟做 34 mark 低佢相關嘅(English Spoken)嚟嘅。 35 杜淦堃資深大律師:攞到遺體可能係部分嘅組織或者一啲嘅證據時候,之後個流程係點?你 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十二天

79 本謄本由Epiq 編製 哋會攞去化驗嘅? 1 鄭嘉俊先生:個流程就係如果我哋喺--譬如我哋(English Spoken)喺現場搵到呢啲遺 2 骸或者遺體,咁我哋就會做一啲文件嘅記錄。我哋做完呢啲文件記錄同埋影咗相, 3 遺體當時個狀況係點,我哋喺邊個位置搵到佢,同埋佢本身我哋所講嘅(English 4 Spoken),佢身上會有啲乜,譬如可能有啲有眼鏡,可能有首飾,有手錶、戒指 5 呢啲我哋都會mark 低晒。咁mark 低晒... 6 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔好意思,打一打斷你。如果睇番張form,其實就喺呢張form 裏面 7 亦都有唔同位置畀你哋係譬如記錄低一啲相關嘅資料,係咪? 8 鄭嘉俊先生:係。 9 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔。 10 鄭嘉俊先生:我哋跟住就會將呢啲資料,就會喺我哋嗰個(English Spoken)form 裏 11 面,我哋就會填咗之後,跟住將呢一啲資料我哋就會落到去我頭先所講嗰個屍體收 12 集站。跟住去到屍體收集站嘅時間,我哋會有另外一批同事會同番我哋嘅 13 (English Spoken)對番佢哋記錄嘅嘢同佢哋收到嘅嘢係唔係相合,同埋係配 14 合到嘅。跟住我哋就會將呢一個遺骸、遺體就會送到去殮房。咁喺殮房嗰度,我哋 15 殮房嘅同事亦都會再相對,對番相關嘅我哋嘅文件,我哋所知道嘅資料,確認之 16 後,就喺殮房嗰度我哋就會繼續去填呢個(English Spoken)form,相就關嘅 17 資料就會喺呢個form 裏面,我哋有嘅資料就會填晒落去裏面。 18 杜淦堃資深大律師:你嘅證人供詞27 段提到喺整個行動裏面搵到七十四個疑似人體組織, 19 其實後來你喺你嘅證人供詞附表都講得好清楚嘅,280 頁,後來喺你嘅第二份證人 20 供詞,我哋知道數字你更正番少少嘅細節,但係似乎睇番呢個表,就一覽無遺咁講 21 咗當時你哋嗰個搜證結果,我哋見到有十二個樣本化驗咗之後就冇動物或者人類嘅 22 組織,喺嗰七十四個樣本裏面。 23 鄭嘉俊先生:係。 24 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋嘅理解呢個程序其實係同衞生署嘅法醫服務,同埋你哋亦都同過中 25 文大學人類學嘅教授(English Spoken)一齊去處理嘅,係咪? 26 鄭嘉俊先生:冇錯。 27 杜淦堃資深大律師:係。 28 鄭嘉俊先生:其實我哋喺現場--睇呢個圖表你會睇到,佢寫住七十四個body 或者body 29 part,咁其實呢七十四個係喺現場我哋嘅同事懷疑佢係一個遺體或者遺骸,我哋都 30 會去(English Spoken)咗佢,以確保唔會有任何嘅遺漏。所以我哋喺嗰度有 31 七十四個body 或者body part,喺裏面經過化驗,咁就發覺有十二個係冇動物 32 嘅組織,即係唔係動物嚟嘅。另外有兩個係一啲動物嘅組織,就唔係人類嘅遺骸, 33 所以我就由七十四個變咗係六十個body 或者body part。 34 杜淦堃資深大律師:嗰兩個係動物,唔係人類,係貓、狗嚟嘅? 35 鄭嘉俊先生:係,冇錯。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十二天

80 本謄本由Epiq 編製 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁喺剩餘嗰六十個人體組織樣本裏面,你後來就發現咗係有啲重疊,同 1 埋有啲樣本亦都同其他樣本有重疊嘅,係咪? 2 鄭嘉俊先生:係,咁喺嗰六十袋裏面,其實我哋發覺--因為我哋喺現場去搵嗰啲遺骸或者遺 3 體嘅時間,有陣時嗰啲一堆嘅遺骸裏面係可能包含咗一個或者多過一個死者喺度 4 嘅,咁所以我哋去收集嘅時間,喺後屘嘅檢驗裏面,就發覺喺其中五個我哋搵返嚟 5 嘅遺骸裏面係發覺有多過一個死者喺裏面,所以我哋就變咗係有六十五個遺骸或者 6 遺體。而喺呢六十五個遺骸、遺體裏面,我哋發覺其中有四個遺骸係同我哋已有嘅 7 死者係重複咗嘅,所以最後我就剩番六十一個遺骸或者遺體,而六十一個遺骸、遺 8 體有六十個係用我哋所講嘅最(English Spoken )嘅證據,即係譬如話係 9 DNA 、指模或者牙齒,齒科法醫畀出嚟嘅證據,咁呢啲我哋就會係(English 10 Spoken)咗。而另外其中有一個就係講緊喺我哋提供畀委員會裏面嗰個死者嘅列 11 表裏面,呢個就係我哋第169 號嘅死者嚟嘅,因為佢當時喺我哋搵到嘅一個頭骨裏 12 面,我哋冇辦法喺裏面攞到DNA 或者任何可以認到佢身分嘅物件。 13 杜淦堃資深大律師:Sorry,打斷你,頭先嗰個應該係講錯咗,應該係第168 號先啱。 14 鄭嘉俊先生:Sorry,係168 號,冇錯,係168 號嗰個頭骨。跟住由於--但係佢當時根據 15 我哋現場嘅環境嘅確認,當時係喺佢嗰個遺骸裏面其實係我哋確認咗另外一個遺骸 16 係佢個母親嚟嘅。咁就係我哋嗰個列表裏面嘅112 號嗰個死者,咁而喺呢個頭骨就 17 係呢個死者,我哋所以相信係呢個死者嘅媽咪嚟嘅,就係168 號喺個列表裏面。 18 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋當然都審視過你哋提交嘅證據,而你哋提交嘅證據非常全面嘅。坊 19 間亦都有啲揣測或者有啲講法,就係話其實可能個實際死亡數字係高過一百六十 20 八,如果呢個講法基於你有第一身嘅消息,你覺得有冇證據可以支援呢一個講法? 21 鄭嘉俊先生:喺我嘅立場,我覺得係冇可能證--即係我覺得係--當然我唔可以話100%唔可 22 能,但係喺我覺得係冇可能有證據證明到係有多過一百六十八個死者。點解呢?因 23 為我哋撇除咗喺一啲報咗(English Spoken),或者一啲有親屬,咁或者好似 24 頭先我哋所講,有一啲可能係冇人去(English Spoken)過嘅,我哋都知道。 25 而喺我哋搜查嘅工作裏面,其實每一個我哋差唔多係--即係好似我頭先所講,我哋 26 係每一吋地方我哋都會搜尋,因為我哋成立嘅目的就係為咗要搵番呢啲遺骸同埋遺 27 體,咁而我哋亦都唔會--你見到點解我哋會有多--唔係多咗,喺我哋搵到一啲其實 28 根本唔係人類或者一啲係動物嘅遺骸我哋都會搵,就係只要我哋喺現場搵到相信係 29 遺骸嘅物質,我哋都會去確保我哋唔遺漏任何一個遺體或者遺骸喺度,所以我相信 30 喺我嘅理解或者喺我嘅判斷,係唔會多過一百六十八個死者。 31 杜淦堃資深大律師:或者所以如果我哋歸納你兩份證人供詞嘅紀錄,所以DVIU 發現係有六 32 十一個個案,加埋法醫喺宏昌閣另外仲搵到一個遺體嘅樣本,嗰個係法醫去搵出嚟 33 嘅? 34 鄭嘉俊先生:冇錯,嗰個係死者列表嘅166 號,咁佢呢個因為就係好似我頭先所講,當我哋 35 發覺如果喺任何一個單位或者喺我哋嘅資料裏面發覺有人仲係未搵到嘅遺骸或遺 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十二天

81 本謄本由Epiq 編製 骨,因為我哋搵到第一批嘅遺骸或者遺骨--遺體去到最我哋都要確認到佢嘅身分, 1 有DNA 或者有指模或者有牙科、齒科咁樣確認咗,我哋先知道究竟係唔係有人仲係 2 (English Spoken)嘅,即係仲係唔係有人係報失咗嘅,所以因為我哋發覺係 3 仲有人係報失,所以喺同一個單位裏面,就係我頭先所講,如果同一個單位裏面發 4 覺淨係搵到一副遺骸,而喺嗰副遺骸裏面只係搵到一個DNA 或者搵到一個死者嘅身 5 分,咁我哋就會再重複去。咁嗰次就係法醫同埋我一齊上去,咁由法醫喺現場嗰度 6 繼續去搵,咁由法醫去搵到呢一個嗰個裏面嘅第166 號嘅死者。 7 杜淦堃資深大律師:換句話講,因為你哋睇過失蹤人士嘅報告,仲有一個未搵到,所以就同 8 法醫去再搵,搵埋最後嗰個。 9 鄭嘉俊先生:冇錯,166 號唔係最後嗰個。 10 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係中間嘅其中一個? 11 鄭嘉俊先生:係中間嘅其中一個,冇錯。 12 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁六十一加一加埋之前消防移走嘅一百零六具遺體,就係得出我哋而家 13 嗰個總死亡人數? 14 鄭嘉俊先生:係。 15 杜淦堃資深大律師:基於對你哋之前坊間有啲嘅指控,所以我哋係其實好小心咁審核咗你哋 16 提交嘅所有證據,我可以同你哋講,我哋要去審核嗰啲證據都係相當困難嘅個過 17 程,所以我哋想像唔到你哋要喺當場處理有關遺體嘅難度,所以代表我哋個法律團 18 隊想再一次多謝你哋嘅工作。 19 鄭嘉俊先生:多謝。 20 杜淦堃資深大律師:我冇其他問題。 21 陸啟康法官:有冇其他涉事?冇,或者孫大律師。 22 孫靖乾資深大律師:係,我哋冇問題,唔該晒。 23 陸啟康法官:冇其他問題? 24 孫靖乾資深大律師:我哋冇其他問題。 25 陸啟康法官:鄭Sir,我或者講幾句說話,我諗DVIU 其實今次咁大型嘅災害入面,我諗 26 DVIU 係扮演喺善後工作一個非常之重要嘅角色,你嘅工作特別係對死者嘅家屬至 27 關重要。其實我哋大眾市民都可以喺通過電子或者新聞報道,或者一啲新聞紙張報 28 道都可以睇到你哋各個隊員嘅工作,其實我哋都感受到你哋喺一個非常之困難同埋 29 壓力非常之大嘅情況之下工作,但係即係我咁講,我希望代表即係香港市民,大膽 30 啲我喺呢度,我亦都大膽啲代表家屬,雖然我冇徵詢佢哋,即係死者家屬感謝你哋 31 各個隊員喺今次呢個事件入面所付出嘅努力。 32 鄭嘉俊先生:多謝。 33 陸啟康法官:所以就鄭Sir 今日好多謝你上嚟畀證供,亦都畀我哋大眾可以知道你哋嘅工作 34 同埋你哋嘅付出。 35 鄭嘉俊先生:多謝主席。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十二天

82 本謄本由Epiq 編製 杜淦堃資深大律師:有一點我淨係想補充嘅,就係DVIU 喺成件事上高,資料顯示總動員嘅 1 人數係六百零五位同事。 2 鄭嘉俊先生:六百零五人,冇錯。 3 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔該晒。 4 陸啟康法官:唔該晒,鄭Sir。 5

6 15 時44 分香港警務處傷災難遇害者辨認組主管證人鄭嘉俊先生作供完畢 7

8 杜淦堃資深大律師:主席,今日冇其他證人。 9 陸啟康法官:咁我哋聽日10 點鐘,係唔係繼續? 10 杜淦堃資深大律師:係。 11 陸啟康法官:聽日10 點鐘就我哋會繼續聽其他嘅證人。 12

13 15 時44 分聆訊押後 14 (聆訊將於2026 年4 月16 日10 時00 分繼續) 15

FD06252 | 2025_港澳台_香港宏福苑大火_Transcript-(Chinese)_20260416.pdf

分类:06_境外及港澳台调查报告 | 年份:2025 | 地域:香港 | 严重程度: | 场所: | 起火原因: | 来源格式:pdf

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十三天

本謄本由Epiq 編製

就大埔宏福苑火災成立的獨立委員會

聽證會

高等法院原訟法庭陸啟康法官 陳健波議員 歐陽伯權博士

日期:

第十三天 2026 年4 月16 日

杜淦堃資深大律師、俞匡庭大律師及李澍桓大律師代表獨立委員會

孫靖乾資深大律師、卓元暢大律師、陸栩然大律師及劉逸冲大律師代表政 府

柯愷欣大律師代表宏褔苑業主立案法團第十二屆管理委員會代表大律師

譚俊傑大律師及李峰琦大律師代表宏福苑居民

律政司代表

競爭事務委員會代表

合安管理有限公司代表

呂世杰資深大律師及阮文躍大律師代表市區重建局

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十三天

1 本謄本由Epiq 編製

以下內容乃聆訊數碼錄音謄本 1

2 10 時00 分聆訊恢復 3

4 陸啟康法官:係,杜大律師。 5 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,主席。 6 陸啟康法官:我哋證人嘅安排都會睇佢哋嗰個日程,佢哋嗰個。 7 杜淦堃資深大律師:冇錯,主席、兩位委員,今日我哋首先會有幾位宏福苑嘅居民會嚟解釋 8 番佢哋當時嘅情況同埋一啲投訴嘅,咁第一位係李俊豪先生。李先生,早晨。 9 李俊豪先生:你好。 10 杜淦堃資深大律師:麻煩你同其他證人一樣,你前面應該有份聲明嘅,麻煩你企起身讀出 11 嚟。 12

13 10 時01 分宏福苑居民證人李俊豪先生開始作供 14

15 李俊豪先生:而家可以開始?本人李俊豪聲明,本人所作的證供,盡本人所知、所悉及所 16 信,均屬真實。 17 杜淦堃資深大律師:請坐。李先生,資料顯示你係宏泰閣19 樓7 室嘅居民。 18 李俊豪先生:係。 19 杜淦堃資深大律師:你幾時搬入宏福苑㗎? 20 李俊豪先生:由細細個開始住,住咗四十年,係嘞。 21 杜淦堃資深大律師:喺火災之前,你同埋邊位家人喺宏福苑居住? 22 李俊豪先生:我哋一家六口加埋工人。 23 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋知道喺今次火災裏面,好不幸媽媽、哥哥同你十五個月大嘅侄女, 24 同埋印傭姐姐都不幸離世,我哋都為你哋嘅家感到相當難過。我知道你同爸爸同埋 25 大嫂都好努力咁樣去繼續將嗰頭家維繫住。我無可避免要同你講番一啲比較傷痛嘅 26 經歷,所以我特別多謝你今日嚟到呢度。我想你講番火災當日,你係幾時知道有火 27 警同埋你喺邊度?可唔可以講一講畀我哋聽? 28 李俊豪先生:當日大概三點零鐘,我有同事同我講話「欸,你屋企火燭喎」,咁我就返去 29 喇,咁呀大概四點喥,咁我就返到去大埔墟嘅火車站,咁嗰陣時喺大埔墟火車站望 30 到我自己屋企宏泰閣就已經畀啲濃煙包圍晒㗎嘞。咁跟住就大概五分鐘喥喇,咁我 31 跑到去嗰個廣福嘅公園,咁我諗住入去宏福苑,睇下可唔可以衝上去救我媽嗰啲 32 喇,咁但係好可惜嗰陣時已經畀警察圍封晒成個嘅宏福苑。咁我只能夠打電話畀我 33 媽,問佢點嘅情況? 34

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十三天

2 本謄本由Epiq 編製 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想問你第一次同媽媽通訊,關於火警係幾時呀? 1 李俊豪先生:嗰陣時我打電話畀佢係四點幾鐘嗰陣時嘅。 2 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔。當時你打畀媽媽,你可唔可以講一講你哋嗰個溝通,同埋佢講咗啲 3 咩嘢畀你知? 4 李俊豪先生:咁嗰陣時佢就同我講話「喂,阿仔,咩嘢事呀出面?乜都唔知喎,而家淨係聽- 5 -有--有濃煙呀」,咁嗰啲喇。咁跟住佢話自己已經打咗999 報警,其次佢就話點 6 解冇火警鐘、冇火燭車,即係消防車嗰啲鳴笛聲,咁佢調番轉安慰我添話「得㗎 7 嘞,咁早,消防員會搞得掂㗎嘞,放心喇。」跟住我都自己走咗去廣福嗰個社區中 8 心,睇下有啲乜嘢可以幫到手,例如報警呀或者搵現場嘅警員去幫手囉。 9 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想問下你,你同媽媽溝通嘅時候,你爸爸同阿嫂都係喺屋企,係咪 10 呀? 11 李俊豪先生:唔喺,因為佢哋仲返緊工,趕緊返嚟宏福苑。 12 杜淦堃資深大律師:佢哋都趕返嚟? 13 李俊豪先生:係。 14 杜淦堃資深大律師:佢哋喺邊度呀? 15 李俊豪先生:「佢哋」嘅意思係? 16 杜淦堃資深大律師:爸爸同阿嫂。 17 李俊豪先生:阿嫂就喺對面海趕緊返嚟嗰陣時,咁我爸爸就搭緊車返緊嚟。 18 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁哥哥同埋侄女,同印傭姐姐就同媽媽一齊? 19 李俊豪先生:係。 20 杜淦堃資深大律師:大概四點半開始,我哋知道你每十五分鐘就同媽媽溝通一次,係咪呀? 21 李俊豪先生:係。 22 杜淦堃資深大律師:你同佢講咗幾多次電話喥大概? 23 李俊豪先生:每十五分鐘一次,確實我真係唔記得打過幾多次。 24 杜淦堃資深大律師:之後你每次同佢溝通嘅時候,我相信佢都有同你講,如果可以講到嘅時 25 候,就係當時佢哋個單位嘅情況,係咪? 26 李俊豪先生:佢哋嗰陣時就講話冇水、冇電,佢哋未食嘢,侄女好肚餓,叫我哋準備定啲奶 27 粉喺出面等。咁但係嗰陣時我都聽到我阿有啲嬲嬲地,「點解咁耐都冇人救㗎?」 28 咁我都繼續不停咁打電話喇,或者去社區中心度繼續搵警察求助,咁佢哋警察都繼 29 續不停咁mark,幫我mark 低晒啲資料,咁都叫我等下,安靜等下。 30 杜淦堃資深大律師:我知道你大概九點,你同媽媽同埋你哥哥做咗個視像通話㗎? 31 李俊豪先生:係呀。 32 杜淦堃資深大律師:阿嫂嗰陣喺你身邊? 33 李俊豪先生:係。 34 杜淦堃資深大律師:係嘞。當時你見到單位裏面嗰個情況係點樣樣? 35 李俊豪先生:全黑。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十三天

3 本謄本由Epiq 編製 杜淦堃資深大律師:全黑,睇唔到嘅? 1 李俊豪先生:即係佢哋喺--佢哋褪咗去我哋嘅大房嘅位置,係嘞,咁嗰陣時我見到個景象就 2 係全部黑𠵼𠵼喇,咁因為我阿哥可能要睇住我媽,睇住阿欣欣(譯音)喇,睇住工 3 人姐姐,咁所以佢就開咗個FaceTime,咁喺FaceTime 嗰度我又見到--見到我 4 哥就即係係咁拍打我阿媽喇,咁呀拍打工人姐姐喇,抱住阿欣欣喇,唔。咁... 5 杜淦堃資深大律師:佢拍打意思係佢唔想佢哋... 6 李俊豪先生:唔想佢哋訓。 7 杜淦堃資深大律師:係。 8 李俊豪先生:係嘞,因為當初我記得八點幾嗰陣時係曾經有消防打過畀我嘅,咁嗰陣時消防 9 就同我講話叫我阿哥留意電話,咁佢哋隨時可以上到去,所以有--FaceTime 有半 10 個鐘之後喇,咁我停咗一陣嘅,咁我睇下即係消防會唔會打畀佢哋,咁最後--係 11 嘞,消防搵唔到佢哋囉。 12 杜淦堃資深大律師:你最後一次同佢哋聯絡係幾多點鐘? 13 李俊豪先生:我印--我記得就係九點至九點半,佢哋傾咗半個鐘,咁嗰陣時環境好黑𠵼𠵼 14 喇,咁佢哋都好緊張,咁呀聽到佢哋即係都悲鳴呀、憤怒呀,咁當中其實都--喺 15 FaceTime 嗰陣時我去到廣福邨嗰個封鎖線嗰度,其實見到有警察,咁我就將個電 16 話show 咗畀佢哋睇,咁當時佢哋嗰個駐守緊個警察喇,就見到事態嚴重,就帶咗 17 我入去同個警察嘅指揮官去講,我唔記得佢叫咩嘢名嘞,咁我淨係記得佢喺廣福嘅 18 社區中心對面有個commander 嘅車咁樣囉。咁佢就問我屋企有咩嘢人呀?咁我將 19 四個嘅資料講晒出去,咁佢都叫我喺出面就等,咁佢亦都講話會再急call 消防幫 20 手㗎嘞。因為其實我當中都講咗因為我阿媽係長期病患者,係嘞,咁就身體唔好, 21 咁BB 頂唔順,係嘞,咁所以想佢哋儘快救咗我媽佢哋先,係嘞。 22 咁跟住到最後一次嘅電話應該九點半左右嘅,咁當中我自己就見到好似報極警 23 都冇乜用,咁我周圍走,我同我阿嫂周圍行,喺廣福邨周圍碌,睇下可唔可以搵到 24 啲消防員直接去同佢求救,最後去到廣福社區會堂隔籬嗰架消防commander 車, 25 我見到有啲職員行出行入喇,咁嗰度其實已經有封鎖線圍封咗嘅,我忍唔住我就衝 26 封鎖線,我就衝咗入去搵個消防嘅commander 嘅車,當時我見到commander 入 27 面架車有兩位女士,咁我都直情show 咗個電話畀佢哋睇,咁佢哋都--我記憶記得 28 佢哋講呢,就話我哋屋企已經報咗好似八次嘅求助,咁我求證唔到喇。咁但係到佢 29 哋再出call 嗰陣時呢,就話,喂,我哋屋企,即係19 樓嗰度有四位緊急人士一 30 定要救呀,咁我隱約聽到對方前線就覆番commander 嗰個姐姐喇,就話「喂,14 31 樓真係攻唔到喎宏泰,好大火喎。」咁我冇嘢好講喇,咁惟有繼續睇住個電話囉, 32 咁嗰陣時其實我見到我哥𨀤低咗,係嘞,咁跟住直至到我同阿嫂係咁嗌佢嗰陣時, 33 係,嗌到電話冇電囉,嗌到對方我媽個電話冇電囉,咁囉。 34 杜淦堃資深大律師:嗰個係之後聯絡唔到嘞當然係? 35 李俊豪先生:冇--佢應該冇咗電呀,所以打極都打唔到電話畀佢。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十三天

4 本謄本由Epiq 編製 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想去同你講一講火災之前發生嘅事,喺你提交嘅表格入面,你都列出 1 咗你想講嘅嘢,當中有你覺得政府部門缺乏監管,工程公司有啲霸道嘅做法喇。 2 李俊豪先生:唔。 3 杜淦堃資深大律師:工程顧問公司有啲唔專業嘅意見,同埋前法團同埋區議員你話有複雜嘅 4 關係喇。我都想畀機會你講一講,因為嗰個表格嗰個字數有限,我知你有嘢想講畀 5 主席同兩位委員聽。 6 李俊豪先生:因為工程開始之前呀,咁就由前法團,即係鄧國權主席去簽署呢個合約嘅,大 7 維修個合約嘅,嗰陣時居民都有啲聲音、有啲意見,所以成日都想話開大會呀咁嘅 8 情況,但係奈何都唔知點解幾次都開唔到,係嘞,咁居民嘅意見越嚟越大聲,咁其 9 實大家都睇到電視都有《東張西望》有播過㗎喇,係嘞,咁跟住有陣時去開會嘅期 10 間,我都有聽我媽媽講喇,咁佢就話有好多唔識嘅人就入咗去聽嘢咁樣嘅。因為當 11 時我唔喺度,我淨係聽我媽媽佢發牢騷。咁跟住我媽媽都自己試過去搵啲政府部門 12 求助,例如即係問下ICAC 啲咁嘅情況喇,或者問下民政事務處呀咁,咁但係佢哋 13 通常都講話「哦,如果你居民有意見嘅,業主大會嘅,咁其實都跟番334 章嗰啲, 14 搵5%嘅業主去開會,同番嗰個主席去傾咁樣」,咁就往往都開唔到個會嘅,係嘞。 15 杜淦堃資深大律師:主要去投訴係你媽媽處理,係咪呀? 16 李俊豪先生:係呀,如果唔係我媽就係我阿哥搞㗎。 17 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔。你自己有冇參與過呢啲投訴? 18 李俊豪先生:好抱歉,我真係冇時間去參與。 19 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白,明白。據你嘅理解,佢哋嘅投訴內容亦都係有關於工人吸煙嘅問 20 題,係咪? 21 李俊豪先生:有投訴過宏業,直情同物業講「喂,你啲工人吸煙喎。」 22 杜淦堃資深大律師:直頭同宏業投訴? 23 李俊豪先生:係,直接同宏業投訴。咁有陣時即係我自己返工或者放工嗰陣時,或者放假 24 喇,咁放假我會晏晝有陣時見到佢哋喺籃球場嗰度吸下煙咁樣。 25 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔。 26 李俊豪先生:係呀,咁有陣時搭𨋢見到佢哋啲工人,咁其實都有陣煙味喺度嘅,係嘞。 27 杜淦堃資深大律師:你喺表格度都提到,你認為火警咁樣,個火勢蔓延得咁快有幾個原因 28 喇,你懷疑有關嘅人士偷工減料,削減工程成本,隱瞞咗法團同埋佢哋擅自關閉消 29 防系統,你亦都有懷疑過圍網嘅物料,就呢幾方面你想唔想同主席同兩位委員解釋 30 一下? 31 李俊豪先生:其實打風,2025 年打過兩次嘅十號風球喇。咁9 月份嗰個風,打完之後,其 32 實有其他嘅居民都有講喇,都有同宏業反映過,「喂,你啲棚網冧晒嘞喎,不如整 33 番個喇」咁樣。我記得我阿媽嗰陣時都有同宏業去傾嘅,係嘞,就同宏業講「喂, 34 啲棚網咁嘅情況唔得㗎喎」。咁後屘即係因為我阿媽每一日都去飲茶,有啲街坊都 35 同佢傾下咁樣嘅。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十三天

5 本謄本由Epiq 編製 杜淦堃資深大律師:話啲棚網咁嘅情況唔得係未修補? 1 李俊豪先生:未修補,爛爛晒晒,溶溶爛爛咁樣嘅。 2 杜淦堃資深大律師:跟住? 3 李俊豪先生:係嘞,咁後屘再換咗一批新嘅棚網,咁但係後屘都好似佢哋宏業同阿媽講就話 4 聲稱係合規格,係合規格嘅證書咁樣囉。 5 杜淦堃資深大律師:媽媽有問,跟住同你反映番? 6 李俊豪先生:係。即係同我傾偈嗰陣時話「阿仔,佢--佢哋咁樣答我喎。」 7 杜淦堃資深大律師:就其他方面,有冇嘢想補充?或者你有冇嘢想同主席、同兩位委員講? 8 趁呢個機會。 9 李俊豪先生:其實就呢件事,主席,我可唔可以發表自己少少嘅情感咁樣呀?嗄,因為其實 10 我住咗宏福苑四十年嘞,咁其實宏福苑嗰度都啲花草樹木、公園仔、籃球場、單車 11 泵,或者我每一日落到樓嗰陣涼風咁樣喇,咁其實都陪住我成長嘅,係呀。咁就所 12 以其實宏福苑對我嚟講都係一個幾刻骨銘心嘅時代嘅一個記錄喇,對我嚟講。如果 13 真係唔係--即係如果冇大維修嘅話,其實唔會有天價嘅工程出現。如果唔係有呢個 14 工程,同埋如果唔係一啲政府嘅部門,佢哋--即係佢哋如果認真去聽,如果佢認真 15 去回應我哋居民嘅訴求呢,可能避免到呢場火㗎。如果真係冇呢場火,我會繼續喺 16 宏福苑度住,如果真係冇咗呢場火,佢哋四個都唔會走。所以我都想希望大家都儘 17 量將個真相還原喇,還番佢哋一個公道。係嘞,其實我唔會奢望我之後生活點樣, 18 但係希望有生之年,可以幫佢哋發聲。因為我覺得喇,呢份嘅憤怒喇,呢份嘅痛 19 喇,呢份嘅唔甘心喇,唔係代表我自己,係代表我阿媽、我阿哥、欣欣(譯音)、 20 工人姐姐,佢哋永遠都講唔到嘅說話由我去轉達出嚟,係咁。仲有啲咩嘢可以幫到 21 你? 22 杜淦堃資深大律師:多謝你,主席,我冇其他問題。 23 陸啟康法官:有冇任何涉事方想提問?我諗其實你嘅聲音我哋亦都聽得好清楚,你嘅無奈、 24 你嘅痛苦,我哋委員會聽到嘅,我哋只可以話畀你聽,我哋會盡力,盡我哋嘅全力 25 搵出真相還原,我哋委員會對你哋或者你所受嘅痛苦,我哋明白,我哋可以其實做- 26 -我哋亦都希望我哋而家做嘅工作,亦都可以令你哋有信心,其實我哋係會盡我哋個 27 全力去搵出真相。我哋希望你哋繼續努力,去克服你哋嘅痛喇。咁我哋只可以--我 28 相信好多香港嘅市民都會支援你哋嘅。今日好多謝你上嚟畀口供,你嘅口供亦都對 29 我哋調查工作係非常之重要嘅,多謝你。 30 杜淦堃資深大律師:多謝你。 31

32 10 時19 分宏福苑居民證人李俊豪先生作供完畢 33

34 10 時19 分宏福苑居民證人馮堯先生開始作供 35

36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十三天

6 本謄本由Epiq 編製 陸啟康法官:係,下一位證人,唔該。 1 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋繼續。係,下一位證人係馮堯,馮先生,馮先生,多謝你嚟協助我 2 哋今次呢個聽證會,你前面有一份聲明,麻煩你同其他證人一樣企起身讀出嚟。 3 馮堯先生:本人馮堯聲明,所有所作的證供,盡本人所知、所悉及所信,均屬真實。 4 杜淦堃資深大律師:多謝你,馮先生。馮先生,除咗你提供畀我哋喺表格裏面嘅資料,我都 5 知道你同警方都有落咗口供,我都想同你講一聲唔好意思,因為之前時間嘅安排, 6 我哋約咗你幾次,跟住又要調,咁呀多謝你今日都再花時間嚟。資料顯示你係宏泰 7 閣3102 嘅居民,你喺宏福苑住咗幾多年? 8 馮堯先生:四十五年。 9 杜淦堃資深大律師:除咗你之外,有邊位同住㗎? 10 馮堯先生:其實基本上同我阿妹,我哋--因為媽媽同我哋都買咗屋,我哋有時輪流一個人-- 11 夜晚一個去陪阿媽,我多數日頭陪我阿媽,就係咁樣。 12 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋知道火警當日,你媽媽係不幸咁樣樣係罹難。 13 馮堯先生:係。 14 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想問下你,喺嗰一日你係幾多點同點知道有火警? 15 馮堯先生:我2 點15、20 分左右就知道,又到到大約2 點50 分左右就趕到現場。 16 杜淦堃資深大律師:當時媽媽喺單位裏面,係咪呀? 17 馮堯先生:已經冇辦法聯絡。 18 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係你嘅理解就係佢喺嗰度嘅? 19 馮堯先生:因為我做過民安隊,我知道差唔多嘅。 20 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想問下你嘅就係你趕返去嘅時候呢,你嗰陣係知道媽媽係一個人喺屋 21 企,係咪呀? 22 馮堯先生:係。 23 杜淦堃資深大律師:返到去嘅時候,你想唔想同委員會講一講你見到啲乜嘢同埋嗰個當時你 24 遇到嘅情況? 25 馮堯先生:因為我見到當時情況就E 座,即係宏泰閣同隔籬嗰個,我唔記得隔籬叫咩嘢座,反 26 正就係第四座,我哋叫D 座同埋C 座,三座起火起得好犀利,而且嗰啲棚架喺度跌落 27 嚟,而且燒得都好犀利,所以消防員都冇辦法行埋去嘅,亦都冇可能做任何事情,只有 28 喺旁邊噴水,呢啲亦都係事實,今次消防員已經係我覺得係盡力㗎嘞。 29 杜淦堃資深大律師:你主要上嚟同我哋講嘅係之前--喺大火之前,你有一啲嘅觀察,你亦都 30 提到你同承建商嘅代表何先生同埋管理處嘅駱小姐提過一啲防火嘅事情嘅,可唔可 31 以講一講畀委員會聽? 32 馮堯先生:係,其實就係因為我每日晏晝都會--或者係一個禮拜三次到四次,我都會上到宏 33 福苑嗰度去陪我媽一段時間,咁我會睇下有啲咩嘢唔妥,睇下嗰啲維修有咩嘢唔 34 妥,主要都係防火嘅,咁我有陣時會從28 樓行到31 樓,或者兩邊樓梯我都會行 35 嘅,有時落嚟行,但我發覺個樓梯嗰度好多喺嗰個防火門旁邊總係有啲嘢喺度,咁 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十三天

7 本謄本由Epiq 編製 我就會同嗰個置邦嘅黎永利經理講述,我話「呢啲嘢你要小心」,亦都同佢講咗就 1 話「你叫啲護衛多巡樓,有咩嘢唔妥就記錄佢,記錄佢之後,你就可以同嗰個法 2 團,甚至同你哋自己總公司講出你有咩嘢問題」,咁發覺就講係根本嗰位黎永利先 3 生好似有壓力咁,乜都冇做過。 4 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想問下你幾樣嘢先,第一,佢門口旁邊總係有啲嘢喺度,你指緊嘅係 5 啲乜嘢? 6 馮堯先生:好似有啲桶,同埋一包包嗰啲粉,我應該影咗張相畀你哋,嗰啲粉係一包包,其 7 實嗰啲粉係要溝水,溝咗水就油喺埲牆嗰度嘅,油後樓梯埲牆嗰度嘅,咁佢哋經常 8 就有好多嘢阻住後樓梯。 9 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想-- 如果你講畀我哋嗰張相,應該就係你指緊嘅係Bundle 10 IE1/402 嗰張相,我哋畀你睇睇。 11 馮堯先生:係,冇錯。 12 杜淦堃資深大律師:除咗堆積咗呢啲咁嘅建築物料喺嗰個位之外,我想問一問你,啲防煙 13 門,因為你話喺門隔籬,你平時去巡嗰陣係嗰個狀態係點?係閂... 14 馮堯先生:唔好。 15 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,點樣樣... 16 馮堯先生:因為點解,啲防煙門畀人哋好似隨便推,隨便開,都有損壞,即係唔會好似慢慢 17 閂,即係會慢慢閂嗰啲,或者自己有阻力嗰啲。 18 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係你見到個防煙門响31 樓通往天台,你去留意到工程嘅時候通常開 19 定閂? 20 馮堯先生:通常係開住,佢有嘢𠓼住,即係有嚿嘢𠓼住嗰度。咁喺火燭嗰日嘅之前,因為25 21 號,咁就24、23,應該係22 號,嗰日星期六,火燭之前嘅星期六,因為我有上 22 去,上去大約嗰陣時候係四--應該接近5 點鐘,咁我見到呢種情況嘅時候,我即刻 23 就落番去嗰個辦事處嗰度,我去辦事處裏面冇人,有個好似姓張嘅人喺度,但佢唔 24 係嗰個叫做安全主任,因為每個地盤都有個安全主任嘅,咁呢個見唔到安全主任, 25 其實我已經試過四次見唔到。 26 仲有樣嘢,呢個宏業有樣最唔好嘅地方,就話佢哋嗰個寫字樓嘅職員基本上10 27 點鐘之後先見人,但開工嘅時間就係9 點,就邊啲人嚟開工,宏業未必知,只不過 28 後期之後,到到10 點鐘開門,有班人就會落嚟攞一啲證,類似即係喺度工作嘅證 29 件咁。 30 即係我成日覺得如果係咁樣就有問題,因為我曾經同我哋嘅主席,即係現屆主 31 席講過話「不如咁,佢哋落嚟開工,大家就喺嗰個宏福苑個花園前面嗰度,有幾多 32 工人嚟到,做一個類似我哋叫做(English Spoken),即係傾一傾偈,即係數 33 下人,好過你哋有機會死喺裏面都冇人知」,但係問題有啲嘢就係話,講還講,就 34 算你講咗畀嗰啲宏業聽,佢哋都係冇理,因為佢哋習慣咗嗰啲--地盤工人最唔好嘅 35 地方係習慣做嘢就求求其,冇風險管理。但係我從18、19 歲做嘢就開始有風險管 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十三天

8 本謄本由Epiq 編製 理,呢個就香港嗰個建築業最大嘅問題。冇辦法,包括我哋嘅管理公司一樣係咁, 1 冇風險管理,有人瞓覺冇人理,有人就偷偷摸摸,唔知搞啲咩嘢,冇人理。 2 甚至我哋嘅更樓,即係我哋入口嘅更樓裏面會有一張大班椅喺個更樓裏面,個 3 更樓好細㗎咋,即係好似人哋嗰啲公共嗰啲廁所咁細,有個咁嘅,我同嗰個黎永利 4 講,黎永利都係冇反應嘅。 5 咁你話同嗰啲曾經投訴以前嘅鄧國權所帶領嗰個團隊,根本連搵佢哋都搵唔 6 到,其實呢個團隊最大嘅問題係有個人喺度支--一直喺後面暗地裏去做緊作主嘅, 7 就係一個叫做陳球強嘅人,佢都係我哋宏福苑其中嘅居民。但係因為陳球強裏面, 8 自佢開始做咗主席之後,我哋宏福苑裏面整咗個垃圾收集站,我望到個垃圾收集 9 站,我話「嘩,救護車入嚟點樣入嚟?」入唔到㗎,因為我哋係四十五年前嘅建 10 築,仲係--如果講埋設計,可能超過已經係五十年以上,咁我想問下一個咁叻嘅人 11 佢因為一直喺度做,甚至佢哋係有個手下叫鄧國權、陳德誠、黃屏屏,甚至仲有一 12 個冼成卓,因為佢死咗嘞,我哋唔可以再同佢--講啲關於佢嘅事,仲有上--或者前 13 一陣子你哋有位叫--佢哋叫冼婆婆嘅女士,佢一直喺度做緊司庫,我諗佢應該知道 14 陳球強係咩嘢人,應該好清楚佢係咩嘢人。 15 其實我對呢個人,以前我都唔識佢,就因為--可能我以前都好似宏福苑所有居 16 民都有啲懶啲,「你哋做,管理好,我哋唔理」。但係自從嗰個污水渠處理之後, 17 我發覺一樣好奇怪嘅嘢,點解我哋宏福苑裏面喺第四座被圍封嘅地方,會有一間我 18 哋叫做咩嘢,裝修公司喺度,咁呢個裝修公司唔可能存在嘅,但存在咗,存在咗之 19 後,咁一定有人畀權佢存在㗎喇,係有接單,有做生意,甚至有好多人就叫佢做一 20 啲嘢,我都有啲副本單據,我有啲正本嘅,我攞咗其實有成幾十--差唔多過百份, 21 咁我就因為喺嗰陣時我做過委員,我攞去擺喺宏福苑嗰度嘅,今次燒埋嘞。咁好在 22 我留番有兩張copy 我喺手上面嘅。 23 因為嗰陣時我覺得好奇怪,點解會有間咁嘅公司喺度,但我嗰陣時冇投訴過, 24 有人係投訴咗房屋署嘅,房屋--當時報紙有賣過,房屋署係有人嚟睇過,但係冇跟 25 進。其實好多時我哋而家宏福苑發生嘅事同房屋署係好大關係嘅。好簡單,好似我 26 哋宏福苑有叫做大廈公契嘅,即係證明係嚟保護小業主嘅,即係話你個大廈公契, 27 即係話你唔可以多一啲嘢或者少一啲嘢,你只有維修或者保護嗰啲,呢個係344 章 28 畀咗法團嘅權力,但係呢位陳球強先生就能夠做到打通所有房署嘅,開綠燈,做嗰 29 個數碼通嘅轉播站,啱啱喺我屋企頂樓,我覺得你點解可以做呢啲,我打去機電工 30 程署,又打去嗰個電訊管理局,我話「呢個可能因為電壓高,可能會影響我哋樓下 31 嗰個居民」。好,就嗰一次投票,唯一我能夠贏到呢班法團嘅人,因為裏面有啲出 32 席嘅--即係支持法團嘅人去出席,都覺得會有危險,我贏咗一次,贏咗一次,嗰日 33 黃碧嬌都嚟數票嘅。 34 但係我覺得就話,一件一件發生咗,好似我哋個圍欄,即係近馬路嗰邊,或者 35 單車路個圍欄,本來係好低嘅,咁突然間加高,即係話自從陳球強嚟咗,做咗主席 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十三天

9 本謄本由Epiq 編製 之後,佢一日到黑就係有項目要做嘢、要做嘢、要做嘢,但係你有陣時做呢啲嘢嘅 1 時候,好似垃圾桶,做垃圾站,或者做嗰啲旁邊嘅嘢,係應該得到嗰個房屋署嘅同 2 意嘅,佢因為其實係我哋宏福苑嘅最大持份者,最大持份者,但係房屋署喺過去四 3 十五年裏面,從來冇對防火有一種叫做風險管理,因為過去四十五年我哋嘅居屋、 4 公屋一路起,但係我哋公屋、居屋一路開始就喺嗰個防火裏面進行好大嘅改善,但 5 係舊嘅公屋、居屋就係冇做。 6 杜淦堃資深大律師:馮生,就防火嗰度,我想你幫一幫我嘅。 7 馮堯先生:哦。 8 杜淦堃資深大律師:頭先你講到通往天台嗰個防煙門成日都開住,咁呢個係唔應該㗎喇,我 9 想問下你,你唔係淨係行天台㗎嘛,你話有巡下其他嘅樓層? 10 馮堯先生:係。 11 杜淦堃資深大律師:其他嘅防煙門個狀態係點嘅? 12 馮堯先生:我諗如果以我做過民安隊嘅睇法... 13 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔係,我想講番你喺宏福苑呢一度,係。 14 馮堯先生:哦,唔係,我即係我只係話畀你聽我就覺得我個睇法就話,佢都係七八成嗰個-- 15 即係嗰個效果,即係唔會做到最好。 16 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想話開閂嗰個問題,我哋知道防煙門應該係關閉。 17 馮堯先生:係。 18 杜淦堃資深大律師:你哋啲樓梯喺大維修嘅時間,你去巡嘅時候,... 19 馮堯先生:我只可以講話我係由28 樓一路到31 樓,經常就發覺有兩三道門冇閂,即係或者 20 半掩。 21 杜淦堃資深大律師:另外,我想問下一個你提供咗好有用嘅資料,就係有個宏福大維修嘅監 22 察組嘅WhatsApp 群組嘅。 23 馮堯先生:係。 24 杜淦堃資深大律師:我見到裏面係有你發出嘅一啲訊息嘅,麻煩你幫一幫我去IE 3/1249 25 頁,我哋就見到我哋喺WhatsApp 群組裏面抽番出嚟嘅嗰啲訊息。 26 馮堯先生:唔。 27 杜淦堃資深大律師:有啲電話,即係私隱嘅理由我哋遮咗。但係你可以確認“9654”字頭嗰 28 個係你電話嚟? 29 馮堯先生:係,冇錯,冇錯。 30 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,所以我見到你其實喺呢個群組裏面,都周不時有發放一啲同大維修 31 有關嘅訊息,同其他居民去溝通嘅,係咪? 32 馮堯先生:係。 33 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢個群組有啲咩嘢人可以加入? 34 馮堯先生:由嗰個新嘅主席佢哋嘅團隊,即係通知有興趣就可以加入㗎嘞。 35 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔,你講番落個咪。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十三天

10 本謄本由Epiq 編製 馮堯先生:即係話只要我哋嘅主席同埋主席裏面嗰啲委員覺得我哋有需要,就可以畀我哋加 1 入㗎嘞。 2 杜淦堃資深大律師:你呢度都講,我哋睇呢兩頁嘅WhatsApp 嘅紀錄,其實有一樣嘢你都有 3 提過嘅,同你頭先講嘅內容都有關,風險嘅問題,咁呢個我哋見到都係有一啲關於 4 食煙、煙頭嘅投訴喺嗰個群組裏面出現過嘅。 5 馮堯先生:係。 6 杜淦堃資深大律師:係。當時你有參與呢啲嘅討論,你知唔知道法團或者其他嘅居民有冇啲 7 咩嘢行動去跟進番? 8 馮堯先生:我覺得其他觀眾應該--我哋嘅住戶應該唔知,只限於可能主席同埋我哋嗰組人應 9 該會知。 10 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁你見唔見到有啲咩嘢跟進嘅行動?你哋喺呢度講完呢啲... 11 馮堯先生:我曾經有同嗰個主席開過兩次佢哋同佢哋嗰個即係承建商之間嘅會議,但係我只 12 係聽到一啲我唔喜歡聽嘅說話,我覺得我哋嘅主席有少少好似同前任嘅鄧先生嗰堆 13 人喺度寫緊背書,因為佢嘅背書都冇辦法,因為關--因為合同嘅問題,合同嘅問 14 題。但係我馮先生就話,我曾經同主席講,「個合同重新睇過,搵啲有經驗嘅人睇 15 過,工可以慢慢做,唔急㗎」。 16 杜淦堃資深大律師:如果我冇理解錯,你畀到我哋嘅證供應該係咪咁,你講嗰個主席應該係 17 徐滿柑先生,係咪? 18 馮堯先生:係,冇錯。 19 杜淦堃資深大律師:因為佢係鄧國權先生之後做咗主席嘅? 20 馮堯先生:係,係。 21 杜淦堃資深大律師:你嘅意思係你有同佢反映過合同有問題? 22 馮堯先生:係。 23 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁又--你得到有啲嘅信息就係冇辦法,因為簽咗個合同? 24 馮堯先生:唔係。 25 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,咁你有要求話去睇過? 26 馮堯先生:係。 27 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係似乎你呢個要求,當時冇被接納,佢有佢--佢哋有可能有佢哋嘅原 28 因。 29 馮堯先生:我知。 30 杜淦堃資深大律師:稍候佢哋都會作供,咁佢哋會處理嘅。但係呢個就係你當時嘅記憶,係 31 咪? 32 馮堯先生:係,冇錯。 33 杜淦堃資深大律師:你都做過管委會成員,係2010 年,係咪? 34 馮堯先生:係。 35 杜淦堃資深大律師:你做咗幾多... 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十三天

11 本謄本由Epiq 編製 馮堯先生:一屆。 1 杜淦堃資深大律師:一屆,係。你做之前同之後,我見到你都有繼續留意佢哋法團嘅工作, 2 我都知道你對法團其實都有一啲嘅不滿,你喺表格度提到嘅。 3 馮堯先生:係。 4 杜淦堃資深大律師:你可唔可以略略講一講畀我哋聽? 5 馮堯先生:其實最主要就係嗰個授權票,授權票其實我哋宏福苑個授權佢最可愛嘅地方就 6 係,每張授權票可以填十八個委員,填十八個委員,假設鄧先生喜歡嘅人佢會填晒 7 嘅,填晒佢十八個委員,如果佢填晒嘅話,其他嗰啲或者比我馮先生更叻嘅、更聰 8 明、更有水準嘅人都冇辦法入嚟嘅。 9 咁我曾經向過嗰啲叫做區議員,唔好話民主唔民主,總之就全部區議員,講過 10 一個故仔畀佢哋聽,我話「呢個授權票可唔可以做好啲?」就係每張授權票只可以 11 選八個,選一--即係十八個除二減一,即係話九個減一即係八個,咁你有本事咪全 12 部都寫晒落八個人名,或者你可以喺度分,咁其他嗰啲真係好似--即係話反對佢哋 13 可以選一個出嚟,好清楚都係佢,咁嗰個就可以入到去,或者兩個可以入到,三個 14 可以入到去。但係包括嗰班區議員,我諗佢哋都冇上報,連嗰個民政處我都冇上 15 報。我同民政處嗰啲管宏福苑... 16 杜淦堃資深大律師:我可唔可以理一理解你嗰個投訴?你嘅意思就係有授權票授權一啲人, 17 喺會議裏面投票,你係咪講投票嘅表格係可以填晒十八個委員喺同一張表格? 18 馮堯先生:係,係。 19 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢個係你不滿嘅地方? 20 馮堯先生:係。 21 杜淦堃資深大律師:我明白。我想講番你表格上高,你都有提到另外有一啲嘅指控,我想睇 22 下你哋有冇證據去幫到我哋嘅,我希望你都明白即係我哋都要喺呢度係一個機會, 23 睇下你畀唔畀到實質嘅證據我哋可以跟進。 24 馮堯先生:好。 25 杜淦堃資深大律師:你有提過話喺表格度你咁講,你話「黃碧嬌議員在做主席期間,就帶同 26 佢啲黨羽影響居民喺大會裏面,好多居民看在眼裏,呢啲嘅黨羽就唔係宏福業主或 27 者居民」。首先更正番,黃碧嬌議員應該冇做過主席嘅,係咪? 28 馮堯先生:唔係,唔係主席。 29 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,係,佢呢個應該寫錯嘅? 30 馮堯先生:係,寫錯咗,唔係主席。 31 杜淦堃資深大律師:佢應該有做過顧問,係咪? 32 馮堯先生:做過顧問。 33 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,咁你想講嘅嘢話佢哋影響啲人,其實你想講啲咩嘢畀我哋聽? 34 馮堯先生:黃碧嬌每一次嚟開重要嘅會議,重要會議,或者普通會議,佢可能唔得閒嚟,佢 35 可以帶住一班人嚟,有男有女,女就對付我呢啲男人,我靚仔啲,男嘅就對付嗰啲 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十三天

12 本謄本由Epiq 編製 小妹妹,要講嘢嘅時候,佢就會凶佢,或者用膠樽乒乒嘭嘭喺度嘈佢,就永遠係咁 1 㗎,但係呢啲事情我相信大埔民政處所有嘅職員,嚟到嘅委員,嗰啲到會嘅職員都 2 能夠睇到嘅。 3 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係你意思其實嗰啲會議,我哋翻查個會議紀錄,有好多人喺度嘅,咁 4 同埋有唔同嘅代表喺度,你意思係喺嗰啲會裏面有呢啲咁嘅事情發生? 5 馮堯先生:係。 6 杜淦堃資深大律師:所以即係應該都好多人見到嘅,如果係? 7 馮堯先生:對。 8 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係呢個係你個記憶,係咪? 9 馮堯先生:唔係記憶,或者我哋講最後一次投票畀承建商,最後一次投票畀承建商。 10 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係你係講係嗰次開會啫?定係次次? 11 馮堯先生:最後一次,最後一次,就係承建商確認咗呢個宏業做承建商嗰一次,嗰一次最可 12 愛嘅地方就係話,黃碧嬌團隊嘅人都係排隊攞授權票,喺現場攞,因為佢攞咗授權 13 票,有張紙,跟住仲要攞啲叫投票嘅表格。 14 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁我想問,你係--嗰一日你係喺個會議裏面嘅? 15 馮堯先生:冇,我喺旁邊睇,我冇入去。 16 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係你喺個會出面睇到嘅? 17 馮堯先生:睇住,清清楚楚。 18 杜淦堃資深大律師:係。 19 馮堯先生:佢哋仲會有--佢哋有攝像頭,有錄影,如果啲紀錄仲喺度,應該喺宏福苑嘅A 20 座,A 座,應該係嗰個置邦喺度管理中嘅,裏面有好多人都係大埔墟有啲水準嘅 21 人,有啲水準嘅人,咁嗰啲人我--因為我而家咁講冇意思,可能會得罪某啲團隊。 22 但係你而家可以攞到嗰啲,如果真係攞到當時嘅紀錄,睇出嚟,用AI 嘅話,全部 23 可以都知道係啲咩嘢人,仲有佢哋有投票,攞嗰個票嘅時候,佢哋係帶同自己身份 24 證,外人係都要帶身份證嘅,要帶身份證,即係話個身份證有紀錄,即係佢哋冇得 25 走,即係話嗰張授權票上面有個身份證,然後你又要攞個身份證去對,你先可以入 26 到去會場投票嘅。 27 陸啟康法官:但係可唔可以咁講,其實嗰個會議係好多人喺度? 28 馮堯先生:係。 29 陸啟康法官:應該有律師喺度?我估有... 30 馮堯先生:係,有,個律師佢又係做... 31 陸啟康法官:有律師,即係唔方--唔同利益嘅團隊都會有啲律師喺度?有民政處嘅人喺度? 32 馮堯先生:係。 33 陸啟康法官:民政事務總署。咁其實有冇啲乜嘢嘢可以話到畀我聽,有啲乜嘢唔妥當?因為 34 如果有唔妥當時候,我哋好多時可以去即係攞啲證據,去法庭嗰度即係推翻一啲嘅 35 決定。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十三天

13 本謄本由Epiq 編製 馮堯先生:有個小孩子講「人都未入齊嚟」,大聲講,當時大聲叫囂,幾高大,肥肥地,白 1 白淨淨,戴眼鏡嘅,佢話「我哋啲人都未嚟齊,你哋點解要開會、開始投票?」因 2 為點解,當時黃碧嬌團隊嘅人已經入晒㗎嘞,後面仲好長龍,好長龍,因為已經有 3 攝錄機喺度,除非個攝錄機而家都爛咗,或者所有紀錄都冇晒。我當場嗰日我-- 4 喂,咁我有表明我嘅立場,我點解唔入場,第一,因為黃碧嬌有一啲類似同佢有關 5 係嘅人已經接觸過我,接觸過我,想叫我幫忙宏業成為嗰個承建商。但我--等我講 6 埋先,佢認為係咁,但係我覺得我已經被接觸過,我覺得我係有一種叫潔癖,我唔 7 應該入場,我亦都唔應該投票。 8 杜淦堃資深大律師:馮先生,我哋如果要去理解你嘅證據或者要我哋實質上高要跟進一啲嘅 9 問題,我諗我哋要多啲資料,你話有--你同黃碧嬌有關嘅人去搵你,叫你幫忙,你 10 要話畀我哋知係邊一個,點解你覺得同黃碧嬌有關? 11 馮堯先生:因為--我可以話畀你聽,黃碧嬌認識嘅人係非常廣嘅,好廣泛,最緊要就建築 12 業。 13 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係我想問番你,接觸你嘅係邊個? 14 馮堯先生:接觸我,我又唔記得佢姓乜,但我有佢個電話喺度,但係我--佢就話「幫下手, 15 睇下點」,我... 16 杜淦堃資深大律師:你識唔識佢㗎本身? 17 馮堯先生:我唔識佢。 18 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁即係佢無端端打畀你? 19 馮堯先生:係。 20 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁佢就叫你幫下手投宏業? 21 馮堯先生:係。 22 杜淦堃資深大律師:你點知道佢同黃碧嬌有關,你係--呢個你猜? 23 馮堯先生:講真,我今年67 歲,我喺大埔墟大嘅,邊啲人係鬼係神我望一望都知。你叫做 24 黐埋嚟,我咪就同你friend 下囉,睇下你想做乜,睇你能夠做乜嘢。 25 陸啟康法官:呢個就係我哋最大問題,你估一估都知,咁我哋調查,我哋唔可以估一估,我 26 哋要有啲實質嘅... 27 馮堯先生:我知,但係嗰個人又好似唔覺意就有佢個電話記低咗,但係有陣時我都曾經有啲 28 事我報過ICAC 咁ICAC 佢同我講話「金流」,我講咗金流,咁為咗金流,你就全 29 部都晤能夠立案,呢個亦都係事實。 30 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔好意思,你想講話「金流」? 31 馮堯先生:即係話有銀紙流動,有銀紙流動。咁你講銀紙流動大家都都冇,但係所以我喺今 32 次火燭之後,我曾經講過如果有--我對《國安法》嘅理解可能會比普通人厲害啲, 33 好多人你覺得《國安法》就係話對外或者對外國有啲古靈精怪嘅嘢,但係我對《國 34 安法》嘅了解就係有人意圖計劃搞亂香港嘅社會秩序,陰謀詭計,呢個已經犯咗, 35 而且砸住咗一班人,砸住咗一班人。就好似以前已故毛澤東主席曾經講過話「敵人 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十三天

14 本謄本由Epiq 編製 往往就喺內部產生」,我哋今次就係內產生,到今時今日好多人好似覺得要香港政 1 府賠,我就覺得賠好似怪怪地。 2 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想--唔好意思,打斷你,因為要跟進你嘅指控,我哋都要麻煩你畀多 3 啲資料。即係換句話講,你覺得搵你,去遊說你支持宏業嘅人,你覺得佢好可疑, 4 你唔識佢嘅,但係佢就畀咗個電話你,你有冇見過呢個人? 5 馮堯先生:見過,同佢飲過茶。 6 杜淦堃資深大律師:哦,飲過茶添? 7 馮堯先生:係。 8 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係你唔知佢叫咩嘢名? 9 馮堯先生:係,唔記得,因為無關重要。 10 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係你就講,就係話你個感覺就係佢就係同黃碧嬌一伙嘅? 11 馮堯先生:冇錯。 12 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係呢個都係基於你嘅經驗,所以你咁講? 13 馮堯先生:冇錯。 14 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想講下你... 15 陸啟康法官:即係你頭先所講個意思係唔係話即係想用《國安法》去查佢咁樣? 16 馮堯先生:應該。 17 陸啟康法官:其實就唔應該我哋查個喎,因為我哋冇咁嘅權力。 18 馮堯先生:唔係,唔係,你... 19 陸啟康法官:因為其實即係好多時我哋應該都有跟進,其實好多時係執法部門佢有個權力係 20 大好多。 21 馮堯先生:冇錯,冇錯,應該佢哋去,你哋調查係更清楚添每一件事,係幫佢哋查得更清。 22 陸啟康法官:但係我哋冇嗰啲權力。 23 馮堯先生:你冇權力... 24 陸啟康法官:就算係法定調查委員會都冇咁嘅權力。 25 馮堯先生:我知你哋冇冇權力,但係佢哋聽到啲咁嘅(English Spoken)或者你哋嘅證 26 據,咁我覺得佢哋應該起動,因為你哋係一個最好嘅幫忙。 27 陸啟康法官:唔該晒。 28 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白。你另外有個指控,就係你話前主席鄧國權,話佢同黃碧嬌關係密 29 切,你話好多時佢授權嘅票大多數朝頭早會入咗個票箱,據你了解,法團個秘書冇 30 核實個真偽,我都想知道點解。第一,對於嗰個核實選票嗰個過程... 31 馮堯先生:或者我講多次畀你,核實個過程係咁... 32 杜淦堃資深大律師:你聽我個問題先。嗰個核實過程你有冇參與,你冇吖嘛? 33 馮堯先生:冇,冇。 34 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁點解你覺得個秘書冇核實個真偽? 35 馮堯先生:第一件事好清楚嘅,初初或者我哋講係我啱啱做委員嘅時候,所有嘅授權票係要 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十三天

15 本謄本由Epiq 編製 經過置邦嗰個經理佢哋去做核實嘅,就寄出一封信,就畀一個授權人哋,嗰個就會 1 授權咗另一個人或者授權咗畀主席,都會畀張張回條佢填番,交番佢嗰個管理處 2 嘅。但係呢個過程其實每一次冇執行,嗰張票可能寄出或者未必寄得出去,甚至嗰 3 陣時我問過黎永利「喂,其實你哋呢個點玩法?」「我哋打下電話呀或者。」就係 4 我話「究竟嗰個係真定假?核實咗有冇?」「冇。」「有冇話大家好似銀行咁嗰個 5 被授權,嗰個就喺個職員面前簽妥?」「都冇。」好,咁我跟住就問一句「喂,嗰 6 啲授權票就入嚟嘅時候係唔使對身份證,但係冇授權嗰啲人要對身份證?」你理解 7 我講乜嘢嘛?即係話親自嚟嘅仲嚴格,寫張紙或者乜嘢就冇呢種咁嘅核實嘅情況。 8 到到最近有(English Spoken)嘅時候,選顧問公司嘅時候,就係嗰陣時 9 選顧問公司,因為(English Spoken),好多人都冇嚟。咁我同黎永利講「咁 10 嗰啲邊個做?」佢話「我哋而家唔做」,畀番佢哋嘅秘書做,「畀番法團嘅秘書 11 做。」畀法團秘書做,你都要有個時間,你要每一日收幾多就做幾多,但係佢哋唔 12 係,可能一個禮拜收一次、收兩次,但係我哋嘅會議基本上就係發出通告之後應該 13 係兩個禮拜鬆啲就會開會。 14 仲有最後嗰一次,你趕得切咩?你咁厲害咩?但係我哋有一個發現,就係每次 15 喺我哋宏福苑旁邊嘅社區會堂,廣福邨嘅社區會堂有一班女人,嗰班女人包括嗰班 16 委員嘅太太就喺度填表,喺度填表。 17 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係最後呢部分你嘅意思係你覺得好多啲授權票其實都係同啲委員有關 18 嘅,包括啲太太喺度處理嘅,咁你覺得呢一個就似乎--可唔可以咁講呢?似乎你話 19 佢哋攞咗啲授權票你有懷疑,佢哋點樣去處理開會嗰個身分核實你都有懷疑,而通 20 常都係同一班人去做,係咪? 21 馮堯先生:冇錯。 22 杜淦堃資深大律師:就係啲委員... 23 馮堯先生:嘅太太們。 24 杜淦堃資深大律師:...啲太太們,明白。 25 馮堯先生:或者佢哋自己做。但係有樣嘢最肯定就係話裏面真定假冇人知。 26 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係你覺得對於授權票嗰個核實個工作有幾認真,做得好唔好,你又懷 27 疑? 28 馮堯先生:因為自從我冇做委員之後,我每次係睇呢啲嘢嘅啫,喺度睇,但係呢個情況我都 29 有同過民政處講過。我甚至仲有一樣嘢,最後一次就係話啱啱(English 30 Spoken)完咗之後,民政處正式正常工作,我曾經要求民政處幫忙約黃碧嬌喺民 31 政處傾傾偈,希望佢唔好糾纏於我哋宏福苑裏面嘅維修問題裏面,但係得到嘅結果 32 就係話做唔到,民政處做唔到。 33 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係呢個你自己去叫民政處...(聽不清)約佢? 34 馮堯先生:係,去民政處,我自己去。 35 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁你自己仲乜唔搵佢,要經民政處? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十三天

16 本謄本由Epiq 編製 馮堯先生:我點約佢,佢夠膽見我咩? 1 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢個係你嘅,明白。 2 馮堯先生:佢每次都避,就算個胡健民文先生嗰陣時做緊我哋嗰邊好似廣福邨嗰個委員,佢 3 都喺度,我話「我見嚫佢都次次唔聽電話,又唔見。」即係話作為一個區議員做到 4 咁都可愛㗎嘞,我又唔會打人,而且咁好睇。 5 杜淦堃資深大律師:你關於投票嗰啲唔妥當,你嗰個感覺--因為之後徐滿柑先生都會出嚟畀 6 證供,我哋都會同佢去探討嘅。我想問下除咗--你講過一啲指控,另外你又話你覺 7 得黃碧嬌同啲承建商啲關係唔尋常。 8 馮堯先生:係。 9 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想睇下你有冇證據幫我哋嘅工作。 10 馮堯先生:如果我幫到嘅話,今時今日我哋都發達。仲有一樣嘢我哋要講,徐滿柑真係做咗 11 主席,佢個團隊真係做咗,咁我只可以話畀你聽係人哋畀佢做,係鄧國權放手畀佢 12 哋做,唔係佢哋算出嚟,即係話要多啲授權票談何容易。即係等如我記得喺污水渠 13 嗰一次,因為製造污水渠,但係污水渠嗰陣時我哋可以改變污水渠嘅方法就係話做 14 明渠唔做暗渠,做暗渠要錢多啲,因為要抽出嚟,又要攞出嚟好煩,要用番政府以 15 前嘅位置再裝番條渠,其實比較工程係煩啲,而且係唔實在。但係... 16 杜淦堃資深大律師:我諗我哋去... 17 馮堯先生:唔係,我只係點解講一講徐滿柑今次會做到主席,即係話你聽嗰一次就因為做咗 18 嗰個污水渠之後,佢哋就退一退,畀你哋啲人加入做委員,等到事情過咗再嚟過, 19 就係由嗰陣時開始,佢哋已經組織緊,聽到好奇怪,已經組織今次大維修嘅遊戲, 20 係組織緊大維修個遊戲。因為當時黃屏屏攞到一個由民建聯組織嘅旅行團可能一日 21 兩日嗰啲大埔旅遊團,包括食飯嗰啲,咁嗰個黃萍萍喺車上面講「我哋有大維修 22 嘞。」其實我哋宏福苑個大維修裏面嘅故事已經醞釀咗十幾年嘅,十幾年,好奇 23 怪。但係我當時都有打畀ICAC 聽,我話「如果嗰陣時我估計就要十萬銀喥一戶, 24 我估計要$10 萬一戶,即係如果佢哋做。所以嗰陣時打畀ICAC,我就話--因為佢 25 哋已經唔查,我可以講,咁我可以講一句,我話「如果$10 萬一戶,嘩,都成$3 億 26 個喎即係咁講。」我話「可唔可以幫下手?你當我馮先生講嘅說話係一種提供意見 27 或者畀消息你,等你哋做啲嘢呢?」不過不能立案,因為冇正式金錢流動。有陣時 28 呢啲嘢應該係政府嘅規例問題,我哋都要接受,冇辦法。 29 即係等於好似而家一開始好多人話消防員做得唔好,咩嘢都做唔到,但係我喺 30 呢度要加一句,我喺呢度要多謝所有今次警方、消防員,多謝佢哋幫我阿媽嘅屍體 31 從31 樓搬落嚟,呢個係事實。法例係畀人守嘅,唔係畀人哋去質問嘅,因為法例 32 唔能夠管轄於每一個人,我哋希望每一個人去守法。如果佢做得唔好,你就話佢乜 33 乜乜,冇做乜嘢,老實講,香港嘅公務員團隊最大嘅問題就係官多兵少,如果你話 34 一個官可以管番二十個兵,喺呢個情況下咁兵就多,但係而家好多唔係,都係兵少 35 官多,即係嗰個比率上面唔啱,即係唔啱比率。但係你中國嘅政府嘅官員就係兵多 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十三天

17 本謄本由Epiq 編製 官少,點解呀?要畀個官更大嘅力量去做嘢,管咁多個人,但係我哋呢度係最失敗 1 嘅地方。 2 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白。馮先生,多謝你嚟提供意見,對我哋工作都有相當嘅作用。 3 主席,我冇其他問題。 4 陸啟康法官:有冇其他涉事方想提問?冇。馮先生,亦都好多謝你。 5 馮堯先生:多謝。 6 陸啟康法官:我知道即係你媽媽過咗身,亦都希望你節哀順變。多謝你今日嚟出席畀證供。 7 馮堯先生:Okay。 8

9 10 時57 分宏福苑居民證人馮堯先生作供完畢 10

11 10 時57 分宏福苑居民證人戴自文先生開始作供 12

13 淦堃資深大律師:跟住下一位證人係戴自文先生。 14 戴先生,你好。 15 戴自文先生:你好。 16 杜淦堃資深大律師:同其他證人一樣麻煩你企起身將你面前嘅聲明讀出嚟。 17 戴自文先生:本人戴自文聲明本人所作的證供盡本人所知、所悉及所信,均屬真實。 18 杜淦堃資深大律師:戴先生,多謝你。資料顯示你哋係住喺宏志閣5 樓6 室嘅? 19 戴自文先生:係。 20 杜淦堃資深大律師:我知道你喺--即係好慶幸,正如你表格所講,你住嘅宏志閣就冇燒到, 21 所以你哋喺嗰個--就呢方面可能同其嘅他住戶影響比較小。但係你喺嗰個火災之 22 前,其實你對於大維修工程都有好多疑問,你亦都有啲參與,可唔可以講一講畀主 23 席聽當時譬如你哋關注邊方面?有向過邊個投訴? 24 戴自文先生:因為本身大維修一開始有好多人出嚟嘅時候,係因為大家都係覺得一個單位 25 $16 萬至$18 萬係好昂貴嘅一件嘅事情,咁先至開始多人出嚟去了解呢件事。嗰陣 26 時就有啲人係覺得鄧國權同宏業係有關係,你先會收得咁貴,咁啲人開始出嚟,直 27 到徐滿柑出嚟拉票,跟住嗰陣時我都係有幫佢,我叫咗我媽寫授權票畀佢。我媽本 28 身寫咗畀黃碧嬌嘅,因為佢喺街站嘅時候,喺度我填你政府資助,咁𡎴完政府資助 29 就問「你填埋張授權票畀我。」由開大會之前嗰一刻,因為我特登叫咗我媽落嚟, 30 由嗰一刻,跟住我問我媽,我媽先同我講「我寫咗授權畀黃碧嬌喎。」咁我即刻衝 31 落去攞番,當然衝落去攞番呢一張授權票係諸多刁難,好辛苦咁先至攞到。 32 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想問下之後,徐滿柑做咗主席,你有參與嗰啲討論,你亦都對於個工 33 程係有啲地方有意見,可唔可以講一講畀大家聽? 34 戴自文先生:鄧國權佢哋有開解說會嗰陣時我已經係有講嘅,因為就工程方面,我本身都係 35 做工程,因為我覺得佢做工程好多方面都好唔合理,譬如最簡單就係你要拆我哋冷 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十三天

18 本謄本由Epiq 編製 氣機,咁你封一年,呢樣嘢會對大家好困擾,我就有同佢宏業嗰個董事姓侯嗰個我 1 有傾過,我話「喂,你可唔可以改變做法呢?你唔好一次過封一年,我畀你拆,我 2 哋畀你拆,我哋唔係唔畀你拆,你可唔可以係逐層或者五層、五層咁做?」咁樣。 3 跟住我好記得宏業嗰個同我講「我哋唔夠錢。」我即刻鬧佢,我話「喂,你唔係做 4 義工個喎,我哋畀錢個喎,你點會唔夠錢?」因為就我哋做工程所知,我知道佢大 5 約個lump sum 價係幾多,你有幾多利潤。即係好簡單,正如大家你落去問拆一部 6 冷氣機幾錢,一拆一裝你都係600 鈫,但係你而家收三部收我4,500 鈫,即係四 7 千幾鈫,咁你個利潤係好高。 8 當時徐滿柑就係威係勢好有熱誠咁去做,咁覺得呢個大維修所有嘢都好唔合 9 理,我哋亦都係佢當選之後,亦都係有開咗一個所謂嘅工程監測組,我好記得嗰日 10 係你哋--嗰日係有一個節日,我唔知係中秋節定咩嘢節嚟嘅,「咁你哋幾點鐘就落 11 嚟樓下公園去登記,你哋熟悉工程嘅就開個監察組,畀大家一齊去監測個工程,因 12 為我唔識工程」佢話,「所以想你哋去幫手。」咁我記得嗰日我係畀老婆鬧嘅,因 13 為family day,我去咗外母嗰度食飯,喺秀茂坪,我仲特登揸車返嚟,同徐滿柑 14 登記咗,咁我先至接番個女。 15 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁你之後參與裏面,實質上高個工程都有啲事情你覺得係唔妥,你都有 16 出過聲嘅,可唔可以講一講畀委員會聽? 17 戴自文先生:哦,喺個group 嗰度一開頭佢哋係有問關於太陽能板嘅問題嘅,我都係有答 18 關於太陽能板嘅問題。但係喺成立呢個group 之前,其實我都有同徐滿柑喺度講 19 關於工程好多唔委當嘅地方,包括話「你當選咗,你可唔可以停咗佢先呢,係咪 20 呀?呢啲係好多人都想嘅,咁你停咗佢,你可能講番我賠番幾多錢畀佢,你再去再 21 搵過另外一個承建商去報過價,睇下究竟我哋賠番佢幾錢,搵個承建商係唔係會平 22 啲,因為你站在大部分居民立場嚟講,佢哋都唔鍾意宏業嘅,你唔應該再畀宏業做 23 㗎嘛。」 24 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係你嗰個整個要求係即係中止咗個合約佢,... 25 戴自文先生:係,我有好多嘅... 26 杜淦堃資深大律師:...就去睇下要賠番幾多錢畀宏業,跟住搵過第二個做? 27 戴自文先生:呢啲我知係冇實質證據,係我口頭同佢講。 28 杜淦堃資深大律師:我明白。呢個我就係想即係知道你哋嗰陣有啲乜嘢投訴同埋做過啲咩嘢 29 行動? 30 戴自文先生:好多。 31 杜淦堃資深大律師:你轉述番你當時做嘅嘢都係可以嘅。你提到工人食煙同發泡膠嘅問題都 32 好多人關注,你可唔可以就呢方面講一議畀主席聽同委員聽? 33 戴自文先生:係,因為喺個監測組裏面有一個叫老黃(譯音)嘅人,就佢好熱心,發泡膠嚟 34 到現場嘅時候,佢即刻可能去地盤嗰度擝咗啲出嚟,即刻去燒,睇下燒唔燒得著, 35 咁佢即刻有段片係話咗畀大家聽,你燒得著個喎,你唔應該係咁樣擺落嚟畀我哋宏 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十三天

19 本謄本由Epiq 編製 福苑用,因為呢個正正係好多唔係淨係監察組裏面嗰啲居民,而喺平時group 裏 1 面嘅居民都係好擔心有著火呢樣嘢,包括佢哋好多投訴係食煙咁樣,但係都係由始 2 至終係冇人理囉。 3 杜淦堃資深大律師:棚網你亦都提到嘅,你話打風嘅時間就似乎係棚網出現咗問題,呢樣嘢 4 你都有出過聲,係咪? 5 戴自文先生:唔,唔。 6 杜淦堃資深大律師:你可唔可以講一講? 7 戴自文先生:呢樣嘢都係喺個監測組裏面街坊嗰啲出聲嘅,因為就以我所知,我住宏志,因 8 為我向內園嘅,我打風嗰陣時,就我屋企個棚網嗰度冇爛,但係其他座數嗰啲係爛 9 晒個喎,會唔會正正係因為咁樣嘅原因,所以宏志閣係好慶幸因為風向加棚網嘅問 10 題,我哋係冇燒到呢? 11 杜淦堃資深大律師:多謝你,你有冇其他資料想補充畀委員會? 12 戴自文先生:冇。大約都係監察組佢哋--即其實你一開頭叫我哋去做咁多嘢嘅時候,到你好 13 快當選咗個零兩個禮拜之後,你就將所有人嘅意見你唔理,你唔聽咁對,你好奇怪 14 點解呢個變化會係咁大,就係正正係因為呢個變化咁大,你令到我哋好多居民都好 15 氣餒,你大維修嘅時期大家咁慘。 16 杜淦堃資深大律師:你講緊嘅係當選之後係徐滿柑先生? 17 戴自文先生:徐滿柑先生,係。 18 杜淦堃資深大律師:徐先生之後都會嚟聽證解釋佢嘅立場,所以我哋會可以同佢探討。主席 19 我冇其他問題。多謝你。 20 陸啟康法官:有冇其他涉事方想提問?如果冇,好多謝戴先生你嚟畀證供,多謝你。 21 戴自文先生:多謝。 22

23 11 時05 分宏福苑居民證人戴自文先生作供完畢 24

25 杜淦堃資深大律師:主席,呢個可能係一個適當嘅時間,小休之後我哋有兩名工人會作供 26 嘅。 27 陸啟康法官:Okay,好。我哋而家小休十五分鐘。 28 杜淦堃資深大律師:十五分鐘。 29 陸啟康法官:今日十五分鐘,好,唔該。 30

31 11 時05 分聆訊押後 32 11 時21 分聆訊恢復 33

34 11 時21 分港鵬工程公司負責人證人吳培坤先生開始作供 35

36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十三天

20 本謄本由Epiq 編製 陸啟康法官:係,李大律師。 1 李澍桓大律師:主席,下一位證人係分判商吳培坤先生。係,吳先生,喺你面前有個聲明 2 嘅,麻煩你先企起身讀出呢個聲明。 3 吳培坤先生:本人吳培坤聲明,本人所作的證供,盡本人所知、所悉及所信,均屬真實。 4 李澍桓大律師:好,唔該,請坐。喺我未問你問題之前呢,我知道你好似自己準備咗一啲筆 5 記,你想一陣間作供嘅時候,可能啲筆記會幫到你,係咪? 6 吳培坤先生:唔,唔。 7 李澍桓大律師:除非主席有意見,如果唔係,我哋唔反對你參考你自己做咗嘅筆記嘅。好唔 8 好呀? 9 吳培坤先生:好,好。 10 李澍桓大律師:我想先了解少少你個背景先喇,你就係從事所謂外牆維修嘅一個行業,係 11 咪? 12 吳培坤先生:係。 13 李澍桓大律師:咁我知道你其實就用一間叫做港鵬工程公司嚟主要就去接生意嘅,係咪? 14 吳培坤先生:係。 15 李澍桓大律師:你就應該大概係咪十年前喥入行呀? 16 吳培坤先生:係。 17 李澍桓大律師:我知道呢間港鵬公司其實就係你繼父成立嘅,係咪? 18 吳培坤先生:係,係。 19 李澍桓大律師:你就用呢間公司,咁你本身喺呢間上面係譬如有股份、股東吖定係授薪,定 20 入點樣㗎? 21 吳培坤先生:咩嘢授薪? 22 李澍桓大律師:即係你係出糧吖,你繼父出糧,出份人工畀你,你去打工吖,定係你就係擁 23 有呢間--你係呢間公司嘅老闆呀? 24 吳培坤先生:唔係,唔係,唔係。 25 李澍桓大律師:係,即係你純粹借呢間公司個名嚟接生意、收錢咁樣? 26 吳培坤先生:係,係,係。 27 李澍桓大律師:好,我知道喺宏福苑大火之後,你就應該向警方做咗兩份口供嘅,記唔記 28 得? 29 吳培坤先生:記得。 30 李澍桓大律師:咁就我相信兩份口供喺入面講嘅內容,你向警方提供嘅內容都係你所知所 31 信,係真嘅嘢先講畀警方聽㗎喇,係咪? 32 吳培坤先生:係。 33 李澍桓大律師:你亦都記得,其實我哋委員會嘅代表律師亦都喺較早嘅時間,其實出過一封 34 信就畀你哋,就問關於今次宏福苑一啲工程上面嘅嘢嘅? 35 吳培坤先生:唔。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十三天

21 本謄本由Epiq 編製 李澍桓大律師:而我知道你就跟住搵咗一間律師行代表你,亦都做咗--喺2 月份嘅時候做咗 1 一啲回覆嘅。 2 吳培坤先生:係。 3 李澍桓大律師:我相信我唔需要知道你同律師之間傾嘅嘢,或者佢畀乜嘢法律意見你嘅,你 4 唔需要,亦都冇責任要向我哋交代嘅,但係我想確認一樣嘢,呢封信嘅內容我相信 5 你都清楚明白律師點樣代表你去答㗎喇,係咪? 6 吳培坤先生:係。 7 李澍桓大律師:我亦都相信律師講畀我哋知嘅嘢,都係以你所知所信,係真嘅嘢,律師答番 8 我哋㗎喇? 9 吳培坤先生:係。 10 李澍桓大律師:好,我就想先問一問關於你同一位叫做嚴楚基先生嘅一啲背景先。因為我知 11 道你就應該其實喺宏福苑之前都已經認識呢位嚴楚基先生㗎嘞,係咪? 12 吳培坤先生:係。 13 李澍桓大律師:個原因就係因為其實嚴先生,你叫佢做「基哥」㗎,係咪呀? 14 吳培坤先生:係。 15 李澍桓大律師:基哥就應該係之前其實都有其他嘅一啲工程就搵過你做外牆嘅維修工程嘅, 16 係咪? 17 吳培坤先生:係。 18 李澍桓大律師:就大概係由2000 年開始,就有做過係咪置富花園、中環有一個大廈,亦都 19 喺尖沙咀有一個大廈,係咪呀? 20 吳培坤先生:係,係。 21 李澍桓大律師:係咪三次都係做外牆維修嘅工作㗎? 22 吳培坤先生:係。 23 李澍桓大律師:就呢三次嘅外牆維修,即係唔係宏福苑,之前嗰三次,我想問除咗--因為你 24 有交代過,你就話其實嚴生當時應該就用一間叫做恒豐營造嘅工程公司嚟同你做交 25 易嘅,係咪? 26 吳培坤先生:即係唔明呢一點。 27 李澍桓大律師:你有聽過恒豐營造呢間公司㗎嘛? 28 吳培坤先生:有,有,有。 29 李澍桓大律師:你知道恒豐營造就係嚴楚基先生嘅公司嚟㗎嘛?即係佢係老闆嚟㗎嘛? 30 吳培坤先生:係,清楚,係。 31 李澍桓大律師:你點樣認識知道有恒豐營造,係咪因為恒豐營造找過數畀你,所以你知道 32 呢? 33 吳培坤先生:冇,冇。 34 李澍桓大律師:咁你點知道嚴楚基先生同恒豐係有關係? 35 吳培坤先生:因為我嗰日上去落口供,差人同我講知唔知恒豐?我聽差人講,問我知唔知恒 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十三天

22 本謄本由Epiq 編製 豐公司個老細,我話我知,我老細講過恒豐即係係佢公司喇。 1 李澍桓大律師:係,係。 2 吳培坤先生:但實質係唔係,我就唔確定。 3 李澍桓大律師:即係其實你一路基本上主要如果講接工程嘅,你就唔理邊間公司喇。 4 吳培坤先生:係嘞,係,對人。 5 李澍桓大律師:基本上總之係基哥,嚴楚基嘅,... 6 吳培坤先生:對人,係。 7 李澍桓大律師:...咁你就做喇你,因為我知道你都有交代就話其實你哋基本上每一次都係 8 口頭協議,就大家講個「信」字,係咪? 9 吳培坤先生:係,係。 10 李澍桓大律師:喺之前嘅呢幾次工程,除咗係同阿基哥做之後,有冇接觸過一間叫做鴻毅嘅 11 顧問公司呀? 12 吳培坤先生:冇。 13 李澍桓大律師:唔,今次宏福苑嘅呢一個承判商宏業,你又有冇接觸過? 14 吳培坤先生:冇。 15 李澍桓大律師:或者未必叫宏業,譬如候華健先生你有冇接觸過㗎? 16 吳培坤先生:冇。 17 李澍桓大律師:即係今次喺宏福苑先至第一次接觸宏業同埋鴻毅? 18 吳培坤先生:係,先知有呢間公司。 19 李澍桓大律師:好。我想跟住就講一講關於宏業嘅今次呢個工程,根據你提供畀我哋嘅資 20 料,其實就應該係大概2024 年5 月、6 月喥嗰啲時間呢,就基哥最先就搵你,問 21 你有冇興趣做嘅,係咪? 22 吳培坤先生:係。 23 李澍桓大律師:當其時佢應該淨係原本就好似係諗住淨係叫你做宏昌一座嘅啫? 24 吳培坤先生:唔係,佢嗌我報價報三座...(聽不清) 25 李澍桓大律師:嗌你報價報三座? 26 吳培坤先生:係。 27 李澍桓大律師:你有講到就係話去到--係咪即係一開始嘅時候,就所以你已經知道係要做三 28 座嘅外牆維修? 29 吳培坤先生:唔係,佢同我講要報價,即係佢嗌我報三座,咁做唔做,我唔知。因為老細... 30 (聽不清) 31 李澍桓大律師:係,咁到最褸屘,佢點樣--幾時--首先,第一,你大概幾時報價畀佢? 32 吳培坤先生:2024 年年中嗰陣時,5、6 月嗰陣時。 33 李澍桓大律師:係。 34 吳培坤先生:係嘞。 35 李澍桓大律師:咁報完價,佢幾時覆番你? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十三天

23 本謄本由Epiq 編製 吳培坤先生:8 月份。 1 李澍桓大律師:8 月份。 2 吳培坤先生:係。 3 李澍桓大律師:咁佢8 月份覆你嘅時候,佢係同你講乜? 4 吳培坤先生:講嗌我入場囉。 5 李澍桓大律師:入場嘅時候,咁你報價報三座,佢係咪叫你做三座? 6 吳培坤先生:做一座先,做宏昌先。 7 李澍桓大律師:做一座先,做宏昌先。 8 吳培坤先生:係嘞,係嘞。 9 李澍桓大律師:即係做一座先意思係另外嗰兩座未決定畀唔畀你做吖,定還是三座都畀你, 10 不過你開工就開嗰座先呀? 11 吳培坤先生:呢樣我唔知。 12 李澍桓大律師:係。 13 吳培坤先生:我淨係做咗一座先。 14 李澍桓大律師:你就淨係做一座先? 15 吳培坤先生:係。咁佢開頭就話嗌我做三座,就係咁囉。 16 李澍桓大律師:唔,我哋知道最後,一陣間我先同你講番少少工程入面嘅一啲細節,不過就 17 我知道應該到最後,其實我哋知道你就做晒三座,宏昌、宏泰同宏建,係咪? 18 吳培坤先生:係。 19 李澍桓大律師:我亦都知道應該個總工程費就係--其實就係應該$850 萬,係咪? 20 吳培坤先生:唔係。 21 李澍桓大律師:係咪佢畀就畀咗$800 萬你,但係仲𧶄你$50 萬? 22 吳培坤先生:總工程就應該就係九百三十六。 23 李澍桓大律師:九百三十六。 24 吳培坤先生:係。 25 李澍桓大律師:咁佢其實找數找咗幾多錢呀? 26 吳培坤先生:找咗八百尾至九百,就係咁樣囉。 27 李澍桓大律師:係,即係仲𧶄你一啲尾數? 28 吳培坤先生:你啱呀,係嘞,因為就做完佢先會同我對數㗎。 29 李澍桓大律師:唔,咁喺宏福苑發生大火之後,其實你有冇同阿基哥再聯絡過? 30 吳培坤先生:冇。 31 李澍桓大律師:冇。 32 吳培坤先生:嗄。 33 李澍桓大律師:冇追過佢尾數嗰度究竟點嘞? 34 吳培坤先生:冇。 35 李澍桓大律師:係,咁我相信你都預咗可能冇得收嘞,係咪? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十三天

24 本謄本由Epiq 編製 吳培坤先生:係。 1 李澍桓大律師:都仍然係講緊少少錢嗰個問題先。 2 吳培坤先生:唔。 3 李澍桓大律師:因為我知道喺你提供畀警方嘅資料,你就話其實找數畀你就係一間叫做海德 4 工程公司嘅支票嚟嘅。 5 吳培坤先生:係。 6 李澍桓大律師:你有冇問過阿基哥點解會用一間咁樣嘅公司嚟開票畀你㗎? 7 吳培坤先生:冇。 8 李澍桓大律師:你都唔介意,有錢收呀得喇,係咪? 9 吳培坤先生:係。我通常...(聽不清) 10 李澍桓大律師:唔,咁你亦都唔知道呢間海德究竟喺宏福苑個工程入面其實佢有冇啲乜嘢參 11 與呀,角色你就唔知嘞? 12 吳培坤先生:唔知。 13 李澍桓大律師:如果我話你知其實海德就係訂嗰啲--其中一間訂嗰啲發泡膠板嚟做封窗嘅一 14 間公司嘅供應商,你都唔清楚嘞? 15 吳培坤先生:我都唔會好清楚呢啲嘢。 16 李澍桓大律師:唔。喺呢度我想你睇一睇一張文件,因為呢個其實係一個--嗰個平面圖嚟 17 嘅,然之後我想你解一解釋畀我哋知,因為我哋知道你做--主要就第一做個封窗, 18 第二就跟住要做打鑿嘅工作喇,係咪呀? 19 吳培坤先生:係。 20 李澍桓大律師:我一路或者睇番呢一個F1/212,睇下你講唔講到畀我哋知,你首先,第 21 一,即係睇下有冇見過呢張文件呀,呢張文件就似乎係宏業出嘅一張通告嚟嘅。你 22 見到上面就係--呢一張特別嘅通告就係關於宏昌閣,即係你第一座去做嘅,你見到 23 上面個日期就寫住2024 年8 月30 日至到2024 年10 月31 號就會開始做,跟 24 住你見到個原因嗰度呢,就係進行外牆窗戶保護同埋𠝹鑿單位窗邊工程,首先第 25 一,你自己本身有冇見過呢一張通告㗎? 26 吳培坤先生:有。 27 李澍桓大律師:有㗎,係咪呀? 28 吳培坤先生:係。 29 李澍桓大律師:上面嗰個原因,即係話要進行咩嘢工程,其實就係你要做嘅嘢嚟,係咪? 30 吳培坤先生:係。 31 李澍桓大律師:唔,呢度我就見話係2024 年8 月30 號開始做呢個宏昌閣嘅工程嘅,你記 32 得你係咪就係大概呢個時間入場去做嘢㗎? 33 吳培坤先生:係。 34 李澍桓大律師:8 月30 號,就係嗰一日入場吖,定之前你已經去咗要做啲準備工夫吖,係 35 點樣呀? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十三天

25 本謄本由Epiq 編製 吳培坤先生:之前就車架生入去。 1 李澍桓大律師:吓? 2 吳培坤先生:8 月30 號之前車架生入去。 3 李澍桓大律師:車啲架生入去? 4 吳培坤先生:係,即係工具囉,係。 5 李澍桓大律師:工具。 6 吳培坤先生:係。 7 李澍桓大律師:咁我想問喺車工具入去之前,即係總之你啲正式開工,同埋你啲工人正式開 8 工之前,有冇所謂地盤嘅安全主任同你上一啲所謂安全課呀? 9 吳培坤先生:有。 10 李澍桓大律師:有,安全課你記唔記得上咗幾耐呀? 11 吳培坤先生:幾分鐘。 12 李澍桓大律師:幾分鐘? 13 吳培坤先生:係。 14 李澍桓大律師:呢個安全課其實同你講啲乜㗎,記唔記得? 15 吳培坤先生:唔記得呀。...(聽不清) 16 李澍桓大律師:有冇講過譬如話棚架嘅安全問題要戴救生繩呀,即係安全帶先好上棚架?有 17 冇講呢嘢你記得? 18 吳培坤先生:唔記得,因為太耐嘞。 19 李澍桓大律師:唔。有冇提過你哋唔好食煙,食煙會危險,有冇講呢個議題? 20 吳培坤先生:唔記得。 21 李澍桓大律師:唔記得。 22 吳培坤先生:唔記得。 23 李澍桓大律師:唔。會唔會同你有講過點樣喺後樓梯用一啲所謂生口出入棚架,有冇講過呢 24 啲嘢? 25 吳培坤先生:唔記得。 26 李澍桓大律師:總之你淨係記得其實上咗幾分鐘就完? 27 吳培坤先生:係,係。 28 李澍桓大律師:呢幾分鐘入面有冇啲圖畫、短片畀過你睇㗎? 29 吳培坤先生:冇。 30 李澍桓大律師:有冇筆記畀過你㗎?都冇,你擰頭即係都冇喇,係咪呀? 31 吳培坤先生:冇。 32 李澍桓大律師:唔。第二樣嘢就--因為我哋知道宏業就係呢個宏福苑工程嘅總承建商,我哋 33 當然明白一個工程入面有好多唔同好似吳生你咁樣嘅分判商做唔同嘅工序嘅,我想 34 了解一下嗰個監督嗰個系統係點樣?譬如你同你啲工人每日去返工嘅時候,就係返 35 到去自己上棚架就開工吖,定係有個系統要你哋登記吖,定係點㗎? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十三天

26 本謄本由Epiq 編製 吳培坤先生:簽--有本簿簽名。 1 李澍桓大律師:呢本簿係邊一個即係畀你要你簽㗎?係宏業吖、嗰度嘅物管公司吖,定係邊 2 個? 3 吳培坤先生:宏業。 4 李澍桓大律師:宏業嘅? 5 吳培坤先生:係。 6 李澍桓大律師:咁宏業有冇一個接頭人同你係對口,即係有咩嘢事你就搵佢㗎? 7 吳培坤先生:冇。 8 李澍桓大律師:即係你唔知宏業搵邊個,如果有乜事要聯絡譬如工程師或者啲料,咁你搵邊 9 個呀? 10 吳培坤先生:冇,佢就畀本簿畀我哋簽名,有嘢我問寫字樓囉。 11 李澍桓大律師:問寫字樓,係問邊個寫字樓? 12 吳培坤先生:係,問佢宏業寫字樓囉。 13 李澍桓大律師:係,咁宏業寫字樓,你有冇話聯絡邊一個人㗎? 14 吳培坤先生:冇。 15 李澍桓大律師:嗄,即係你其實喺成個工程入面,你嘅對頭人有乜事嘅,其實就係搵番阿基 16 哥? 17 吳培坤先生:我老細基哥囉,係。 18 李澍桓大律師:嗄。你喺第二份嘅警察嘅口供呢,就你有咁講嘅,你就話做緊嗰個封窗保護 19 嘅程序期間呢,就相信係承建商有一個叫做宏業建築工程有限公司嘅Gordon 哥或 20 者Sam 哥,或者鐘哥(譯音)就曾經打過電話畀你,「就叫我每隔五層樓就喺後樓 21 梯開一個生口位嘅」,咁我就係想問你,你既然同警方講過話有一個叫Gordon 哥 22 或者叫Sam 哥,或者係鐘哥,咁呢啲名係你接觸過先講得到出嚟㗎? 23 吳培坤先生:係。 24 李澍桓大律師:你記唔記得喺乜嘢情況之下接觸過Gordon 哥、Sam 哥同阿鐘哥呀? 25 吳培坤先生:後屘。 26 李澍桓大律師:後屘即係幾時後屘呀? 27 吳培坤先生:即係入場之後。 28 李澍桓大律師:即係2024 年8 月30 號入咗場之後? 29 吳培坤先生:唔係,我9 月份入場,9 月份入咗場之後。 30 李澍桓大律師:係。 31 吳培坤先生:係。 32 李澍桓大律師:係嘞。8 月30 號下一日就...(聽不清)9 月喇。 33 吳培坤先生:入場一排之後先去接觸佢哋,開頭我都係對我老細。 34 李澍桓大律師:記唔記得第一次接觸係咪就係同你講話做生口嗰樣嘢? 35 吳培坤先生:係。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十三天

27 本謄本由Epiq 編製 李澍桓大律師:你喺畀警方嘅口供入面,我想搞清楚,因為你就話係打電話畀你嘅,所以即 1 係畀呢一個指示你嘅時候就唔係話面對面喺地盤,即係喺宏福苑有人畀個指示你, 2 即係好似而家我同你咁面對面,純粹係透過電話講畀你知,係咪呀?唔明我個問 3 題? 4 吳培坤先生:唔明。 5 李澍桓大律師:好簡單咋嘛,你個口供話其中有個人打過電話畀你,叫你開生口吖嘛? 6 吳培坤先生:係。 7 李澍桓大律師:我想確認一下,即係話你淨係聽到呢個人把聲,你見唔到個樣嘅,係咪? 8 吳培坤先生:係。 9 李澍桓大律師:即係有個人搦起個電話打畀你,唔好理佢點解知你個電話先喇,咁佢就同你 10 講「阿基--阿坤」,因為啲人好似叫你做「四眼坤」㗎嘛,係咪?花名喇。 11 吳培坤先生:嗌我「阿坤」,唔。 12 李澍桓大律師:「阿坤,去每五層樓開個生口」,咁就係咁樣講咗一句?咁你點知佢係宏業 13 打嚟嘅人呀? 14 吳培坤先生:因為入場之後呢,...(聽不清)我老細呢,即係都有入去,即係我啱啱入場 15 嗰陣時,因為我呀對我老細基哥㗎嘛。 16 李澍桓大律師:係吖。 17 吳培坤先生:佢就話有咩嘢嘢就宏業啲人都可以搵我。 18 李澍桓大律師:係。 19 吳培坤先生:咁樣先至有佢哋--識佢哋,有佢聯絡方式呢啲。...(聽不清) 20 李澍桓大律師:咁所以有個人打畀你話自己係--咁佢有冇講自己話「我係宏業嘅人」吖? 21 吳培坤先生:我有佢電話㗎嘛,佢個電話我都有㗎。 22 李澍桓大律師:哦,即係其實你有佢電話嘅? 23 吳培坤先生:係,係,我老細入去之後我就有佢電話,開頭冇嘅。 24 李澍桓大律師:即係所以其實我頭先問你,你又唔係真係淨係對基哥嘅,起碼你都知道有呢 25 啲人係宏業嘅人嚟嘅。 26 吳培坤先生:係,我老細帶我去㗎嘛。 27 李澍桓大律師:其實你係咪有見過,面對面,即係你話你老細基哥帶你嘅時候? 28 吳培坤先生:係,帶我去寫字樓。 29 李澍桓大律師:咁而家搞清楚嘞,其實你係有見過佢哋嘅? 30 吳培坤先生:係,我老細帶我去見。 31 李澍桓大律師:然之後其中一個你唔記得邊個嘞,就打電話叫你開生口,係咪呀? 32 吳培坤先生:係。 33 李澍桓大律師:你入咗場之後,其實我想知道你第一樣做嘅其實究竟係封窗、打鑿定係開生 34 口先㗎? 35 吳培坤先生:封窗。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十三天

28 本謄本由Epiq 編製 李澍桓大律師:封窗先嘅。 1 吳培坤先生:係。 2 李澍桓大律師:咁你啲工人封窗嘅時候,就固之然我知道就要出個棚出面㗎喇,係咪呀? 3 吳培坤先生:係,係。 4 李澍桓大律師:咁你入場嘅時候亦都已經--宏福苑我相信八座都已經起咗個棚架,掛咗個棚 5 網㗎喇,係咪? 6 吳培坤先生:我入場嗰陣時得三座咋嘛。 7 李澍桓大律師:得三座? 8 吳培坤先生:係。 9 李澍桓大律師:其餘嗰五座就未有棚? 10 吳培坤先生:未。 11 李澍桓大律師:唔。咁你做嗰三座就有棚嘞。你上個棚度--我相信你封窗就由--因為我哋知 12 道宏福苑就三十一層樓高㗎。 13 吳培坤先生:係。 14 李澍桓大律師:咁你點樣--喺邊度上個棚架?地下爬上去,定係天台爬番落嚟㗎? 15 吳培坤先生:天台爬番落嚟。 16 李澍桓大律師:天台爬番落嚟嘅? 17 吳培坤先生:係。 18 李澍桓大律師:你嗰陣時,你啱啱入場嘅時候,未叫你開生口之前,你知唔知道15 樓原來 19 有個生口㗎? 20 吳培坤先生:有,知。 21 李澍桓大律師:有,咁你有冇利用過嗰個生口出入㗎? 22 吳培坤先生:開頭我唔需要嘅。 23 李澍桓大律師:係,點解呢? 24 吳培坤先生:我喺31 樓做落嚟㗎嘛。 25 李澍桓大律師:唔,因為還掂都要由頂做落嚟嘞,... 26 吳培坤先生:擒落嚟,係嘞。 27 李澍桓大律師:...其實就冇理由喺15 樓再爬... 28 吳培坤先生:爬番上去。 29 李澍桓大律師:...上31 樓咁樣。 30 吳培坤先生:係嘞。 31 李澍桓大律師:我想問一問你,呢度我想你睇一睇譬如舉個例,第219 頁,都係F1,我哋 32 用一個例子嘅啫。 33 吳培坤先生:唔。 34 李澍桓大律師:咁呢座其實係D 座嚟嘅,不過都唔緊要,因為我哋知道八座嗰個大致上都係 35 咁樣嘅設計㗎嘞,嗰個樓宇。我想問你封窗嘅時候,先講做封窗呢個步驟,你係逐 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十三天

29 本謄本由Epiq 編製 層樓去做嘅,係咪呀?即係31 樓,封晒全個31 樓嗰啲窗,就先落30 樓做,係咪 1 咁樣㗎? 2 吳培坤先生:係,係。 3 李澍桓大律師:喺當其時,你記得開頭做封窗,譬如講番宏昌你第一座做嗰陣時呢,要封晒 4 全層樓,即係譬如舉個例31 樓,要封好晒成個31 樓嘅窗要用幾多時間? 5 吳培坤先生:31 樓我淨係封半層? 6 李澍桓大律師:咁半層要幾耐? 7 吳培坤先生:嗰陣時半層呀,真係唔記得嘞,應該一至兩日。 8 李澍桓大律師:一至兩日。 9 吳培坤先生:係嘞。 10 李澍桓大律師:我相信封窗就係其實將啲窗口,玻璃嗰個位置貼啲膠紙,然之後黐塊發泡膠 11 上去嘅啫,咁有多餘嘅就𠝹走佢,係咪呀? 12 吳培坤先生:係。 13 李澍桓大律師:咁31 樓就做半層,30 樓呢?係咪做全層呀? 14 吳培坤先生:都係半層。 15 李澍桓大律師:即係每半層半層咁做嘅? 16 吳培坤先生:係。 17 李澍桓大律師:有冇咩嘢原因點解既然都上咗個棚度,都喺31 樓,唔一次過做晒全層呀? 18 吳培坤先生:我哋跟通告做吖嘛,佢出咗A 區、B 區吖嘛。 19 李澍桓大律師:哦,所以你見到,即係譬如舉個例,而家呢一張圖,我哋見到中間有條打斜 20 嘅橫線。 21 吳培坤先生:係。 22 李澍桓大律師:藍色嘅A 區。 23 吳培坤先生:係。 24 李澍桓大律師:綠色嘅B 區。 25 吳培坤先生:係。 26 李澍桓大律師:所以你就跟嗰個進度表做。 27 吳培坤先生:係。 28 李澍桓大律師:佢就叫你做咗每半層半層咁做? 29 吳培坤先生:係。 30 李澍桓大律師:咁封完A 區之後,你係開始做A 區嘅打鑿吖,定係做B 區嘅封窗㗎? 31 吳培坤先生:同步進行。 32 李澍桓大律師:同步進行。 33 吳培坤先生:係。 34 李澍桓大律師:即係封咗A 區,跟住就有啲人就開始做打鑿。 35 吳培坤先生:係。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十三天

30 本謄本由Epiq 編製 李澍桓大律師:亦都你有另一啲工人就開始喺B 區度做封窗,係咪呀? 1 吳培坤先生:係,係,係。 2 李澍桓大律師:我哋見番頭先我哋睇應該係212 頁嗰度。 3 吳培坤先生:唔。 4 李澍桓大律師:嗰個預計嗰個時間其實就係話24 年8 月30 號到24 年10 月31 號就做宏 5 昌閣嘅呢一個封窗同打鑿。 6 吳培坤先生:唔,唔。 7 李澍桓大律師:咁你自己記得係咪就係喺呢兩個月入面,或者係嘞,即係嚴格上9 月、10 8 月呢兩個月喇,係咪都已經如期進行完你嗰個打鑿嘅工程㗎嘞? 9 吳培坤先生:即係9、10 月仲係打鑿工程,係咪? 10 李澍桓大律師:唔,做完未?即係係咪做得晒? 11 吳培坤先生:打鑿係咪?做唔晒。 12 李澍桓大律師:做唔晒。咁到最後,以你記得宏昌閣用咗幾耐時間先做完晒你應該要做嗰部 13 分? 14 吳培坤先生:11 月尾喥。 15 李澍桓大律師:11 月尾喥。 16 吳培坤先生:11 月尾。 17 李澍桓大律師:即係如果9 月開始,根據你記得,就其實最多都係用咗三個月就做晒宏昌閣 18 嘅打鑿嘞? 19 吳培坤先生:係。三個月,印象中...(聽不清) 20 李澍桓大律師:打鑿,我想知嘅就係,其實因為宏昌閣我哋知道原本佢就係由紙皮石去鋪住 21 㗎嘛個外牆,係咪? 22 吳培坤先生:係。 23 李澍桓大律師:咁我相信你做嘅嗰部分主要就係將--首先,第一,將舊嘅紙皮石打走,係 24 咪? 25 吳培坤先生:係。 26 李澍桓大律師:如果有啲石屎,尤其是有鋼筋、生鏽或者有啲石屎係破損嘅,係咪都係要由 27 你做打鑿嗰部分去清除咗佢㗎? 28 吳培坤先生:唔係。 29 李澍桓大律師:唔係。 30 吳培坤先生:唔係。 31 李澍桓大律師:即係基本上你嘅工作只要一做完個清除嗰個紙皮石其實就完㗎嘞喎? 32 吳培坤先生:係。 33 李澍桓大律師:咁其要餘有啲咩嘢執修、漏水、再做番批盪嗰啲就另一個人去做嘞? 34 吳培坤先生:係。 35 李澍桓大律師:唔。最後你係幾時喥知道阿基哥話叫你做埋另外嗰兩座呀? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十三天

31 本謄本由Epiq 編製 吳培坤先生:佢10 月份同我講,嗌我做埋隔籬嗰兩座? 1 李澍桓大律師:做埋? 2 吳培坤先生:隔籬嗰兩座。 3 李澍桓大律師:即係我哋而家知道就係宏泰同宏建? 4 吳培坤先生:係。 5 李澍桓大律師:咁嗰陣時,即係10 月份嘅時候,你都未做完宏昌㗎喇,係咪? 6 吳培坤先生:係,係。 7 李澍桓大律師:咁所以你就要再搵多少少工人? 8 吳培坤先生:係。 9 李澍桓大律師:因為我知道你講話好似最高峰嘅時間有--你搵番嚟嘅都有五十幾個工人㗎 10 喎? 11 吳培坤先生:係,差唔多五十人喥。 12 李澍桓大律師:係咪呀?呢度我想先問一問你,跳一跳,一陣間我再返轉頭問番你打鑿嗰個 13 情況。 14 吳培坤先生:唔。 15 李澍桓大律師:你就話其實喺做做下期間呢,跟住宏業嗰邊就叫你每五層樓做一個生口呀? 16 吳培坤先生:係。 17 李澍桓大律師:首先你知道其實做嘅就喺後樓梯度做㗎喇,係咪? 18 吳培坤先生:係。 19 李澍桓大律師:你都唔係第一日做建築工程喇? 20 吳培坤先生:係。 21 李澍桓大律師:我相信你之前接觸嘅大廈都接觸過有後樓梯呢樣嘢,係咪? 22 吳培坤先生:有,係。 23 李澍桓大律師:以你所知後樓梯應該都係一個走火通道嚟㗎喇,係咪? 24 吳培坤先生:係。 25 李澍桓大律師:唔。咁開呢個生口嘅時候,你有冇自己覺得喺個後樓梯度做走火通道,拆個 26 玻璃,你自己當時有冇諗過會唔會有問題呢?即係對於嗰個走火逃生嘅呢個設備? 27 吳培坤先生:呢啲我唔識。 28 李澍桓大律師:你唔識? 29 吳培坤先生:係。 30 李澍桓大律師:我相信你亦都冇問過宏業「喂,得唔得㗎?拆唔拆得㗎?」我諗你冇問過 31 喇? 32 吳培坤先生:唔係,佢開頭開咗15 樓一個生口㗎嘛。 33 李澍桓大律師:係吖,嗰個唔係你開㗎嘛? 34 吳培坤先生:唔係。 35 李澍桓大律師:人哋做錯嘢,唔代表你要做錯嘢㗎嘛,係咪?你點頭同意我講法喇?所以我 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十三天

32 本謄本由Epiq 編製 問你就係,即係你亦都冇問過宏業嗰方面話,「喂,其實做唔做得?係咪可以 1 拆?」你冇問過喇? 2 吳培坤先生:唔係,我有問過佢,佢嗌我做。 3 李澍桓大律師:佢嗌你做? 4 吳培坤先生:係。 5 李澍桓大律師:唔,即係佢話叫你拆,咁呢個就係你講Gordon 哥、Sam 哥或者鐘哥其中一 6 個嘞? 7 吳培坤先生:係嘞,係嘞。 8 李澍桓大律師:唔。咁開嗰個生口呢,因為你都講喇,其實好多時你哋一係就由底爬上棚, 9 一係就喺天台爬上棚喇,即係爬落去個棚喇。 10 吳培坤先生:唔,唔。 11 李澍桓大律師:我相信個生口可唔可以咁講,其實基本上就係叫做方便啲工人出入,係咪? 12 吳培坤先生:通常係咁。 13 李澍桓大律師:唔,因為即係我諗最簡單嘅,就係如果我嗰朝要去17 樓開工嘅,我可以選 14 擇喺31 樓爬番落去,就爬十幾層樓,或者我可以選擇喺15 樓出去,搭𨋢上到15 15 樓,就爬兩層,咁咪去到17 樓囉,咁咪快啲囉,係咪?你點頭係咪即係同意? 16 吳培坤先生:係。 17 李澍桓大律師:唔。所以其實可唔可以咁講?開生口呢樣嘢呢,純粹係一個方便嘅措施,係 18 咪? 19 吳培坤先生:呢樣嘢我唔明白,因為對我冇乜用,我擒慣棚。 20 李澍桓大律師:係,所以我咪話開生口喺你講呢,呢個工程嘅技術層面上面其實係冇必要㗎 21 嘛,係咪?你唔需要呢個生口㗎嘛?你嘅講法係。 22 吳培坤先生:但係慣常都係有開生口。 23 李澍桓大律師:又係嗰句喇,慣常係咪啱,我哋就再討論喇。 24 吳培坤先生:係,我有見過。 25 李澍桓大律師:我純粹想理解,因為你係專業吖嘛,如果你做打鑿工程,起碼喺你嘅角度, 26 其實個生口係唔需要㗎嘛,幫唔到你㗎嘛你個講法係? 27 吳培坤先生:要--開唔開,我都冇乜所謂囉。 28 李澍桓大律師:係囉,所以其實純粹係一個便利、方便嘅做法嚟咋嘛,啱唔啱? 29 吳培坤先生:公司嗌我開囉。 30 李澍桓大律師:吓? 31 吳培坤先生:我話公司嗌我開。 32 李澍桓大律師:係囉,即係公司叫你開喇。 33 吳培坤先生:係,係。 34 李澍桓大律師:但係唔係話技術上我需要㗎嘛,係咪? 35 吳培坤先生:咩嘢技術上? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十三天

33 本謄本由Epiq 編製 李澍桓大律師:即係喺你嘅角度,我唔會話冇咗個生口,你就做唔到個打鑿工程㗎嘛,同唔 1 同意? 2 吳培坤先生:係,同意,同意。 3 李澍桓大律師:咁開生口呢樣嘢,我亦都--我哋委員會亦都想了解,其實喺以你做咗十多年 4 維修嘅經驗入面,開生口呢樣嘢其實係咪一個好常見嘅做法嚟? 5 吳培坤先生:係。 6 李澍桓大律師:咁同樣地,以你所知,其實都係一個即係便利嘅措施,方便啲工人出入個棚 7 架,係咪? 8 吳培坤先生:係。 9 李澍桓大律師:講番打鑿,剛才你就講需要係--我相信用一啲儀器就將啲舊有嘅紙皮石就拆 10 走,係咪? 11 吳培坤先生:係。 12 李澍桓大律師:咁我相信可以理解嘅,喺做呢個工程嘅時候,啲紙皮石當然你唔會有個工 13 人,再搵多個人去逐塊逐塊執呢啲紙皮石㗎嘛,係咪? 14 吳培坤先生:係。 15 李澍桓大律師:咁我相信你用個工具,你啲師傅打走咗佢之後,啲紙皮石就當然可能由佢跌 16 咗落去個棚架或者地下上面先,暫時,係咪?即係嗰啲泥頭,所謂。 17 吳培坤先生:我哋有做保護嘅。 18 李澍桓大律師:保護還保護,你拆咗出嚟啲紙皮石係好小心每拆一塊就有個工人去執住佢、 19 袋起佢,定還是由佢跌落個棚度? 20 吳培坤先生:跌落個棚度。 21 李澍桓大律師:係。可能以你自己為例,跌咗出嚟、拆咗出嚟嗰啲紙皮石,係每日收工嘅時 22 候都要掃一掃清理,定做完可能某一個階段,一個月、兩個禮拜先至掃一次? 23 吳培坤先生:每日。 24 李澍桓大律師:每日都掃? 25 吳培坤先生:嗄,每日都清洗。 26 李澍桓大律師:係,所以個棚如果以你所講,我相信你就會話個棚好乾淨,冇垃圾,係咪? 27 吳培坤先生:泥頭就冇,係。 28 李澍桓大律師:冇泥頭。咁你頭先講到要做保護,咁我哋知道喺呢個事件上面就用咗所謂發 29 泡膠封住啲窗,係咪? 30 吳培坤先生:係。 31 李澍桓大律師:同樣地以你嘅經驗,用發泡膠嘅呢一個做法常唔常見? 32 吳培坤先生:都有。 33 李澍桓大律師:都有。相對地比較多,定有不過唔多? 34 吳培坤先生:有,但係唔多。 35 李澍桓大律師:咁通常會用啲--如果唔多,咁你大多數其實做呢一個封窗會用啲乜嘢嘅物 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十三天

34 本謄本由Epiq 編製 料? 1 吳培坤先生:中空板。 2 李澍桓大律師:中空板? 3 吳培坤先生:中空板。 4 李澍桓大律師:係,中空板係--但係你自己有冇認識,譬如中空板係乜嘢材質、咩嘢材料, 5 你識唔識? 6 吳培坤先生:摸上去就膠質。 7 李澍桓大律師:摸上去係膠質? 8 吳培坤先生:係。 9 李澍桓大律師:但係我相信即係係咪--所謂譬如係咪阻燃,易唔易燒得著,你就唔知? 10 吳培坤先生:我哋淨工,料係不嬲上面包嘅。 11 李澍桓大律師:因為我--對你公道,因為你嘅講法就係其實你就基本上淨係出人工,係咪? 12 吳培坤先生:係,提供人手。 13 李澍桓大律師:係,咁基哥就會提供晒所有嘅材料,咁我相信喺你嗰部分,其實唯一嘅材料 14 就係做封窗嘅啫?你打鑿就用工具嘅啫,係咪? 15 吳培坤先生:係,係。 16 李澍桓大律師:冇材料擺上去㗎嘛,即係你唔使買料整上去㗎嘛? 17 吳培坤先生:冇,唔需要,我淨係包自己工具。 18 李澍桓大律師:淨係一個人,一個師傅揸住部風批,就去打鑿㗎喇,係咪? 19 吳培坤先生:係。 20 李澍桓大律師:所以唯一要用嘅所謂材料就係呢啲發泡膠? 21 吳培坤先生:係。 22 李澍桓大律師:咁而呢個發泡膠你頭先講咗,就係基哥提供畀你? 23 吳培坤先生:係。 24 李澍桓大律師:係咪你一入場嘅時候,已經有呢啲發泡膠喺度㗎嘞? 25 吳培坤先生:已經送到地盤。 26 李澍桓大律師:已經送咗去地盤? 27 吳培坤先生:係。 28 李澍桓大律師:因為我哋有資料睇到海德其實訂咗兩批,一批9 月,一批係11 月,你記唔 29 記得兩批你喺三座上面用嘅,係咪都係同一個款式定係有唔同? 30 吳培坤先生:我冇留意。 31 李澍桓大律師:你冇留意。 32 吳培坤先生:因為始終過咗好耐,冇留意。 33 李澍桓大律師:我有另外一個文件,我想你睇一睇嘅。首先喺呢一個工程嘅過程入面,我想 34 再問多你少少先,有冇除咗你自己去管理你旗下嘅工人之外,有冇譬如宏業嘅人上 35 嚟巡過你哋做嘢,睇過你哋出棚架安唔安全嗰啲情況,有冇做過呢樣嘢? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十三天

35 本謄本由Epiq 編製 吳培坤先生:有。 1 李澍桓大律師:有,做過幾多次,以你記得? 2 吳培坤先生:我記得就我哋打鑿嗰日有上過嚟,其他如果佢嚟咗,我都唔知㗎,即係我見到 3 就有一次。 4 李澍桓大律師:有冇啲譬如好似建築師或者鴻毅嗰邊嘅人嚟問過你,或者吩咐過你做嘢要小 5 心定係點樣,有冇講過? 6 吳培坤先生:有見過,喺天台。 7 李澍桓大律師:天台,見過幾多次? 8 吳培坤先生:係。 9 李澍桓大律師:見過幾多次? 10 吳培坤先生:見過顧問見過一至兩次,即係我見到,一至兩次。 11 李澍桓大律師:即係「顧問」你意思,你知道佢係鴻毅,即係建築師嗰邊嘛,唔係宏業嗰 12 邊,係咪? 13 吳培坤先生:係,係。 14 李澍桓大律師:你係--你記唔記得見鴻毅嘅嗰個人有冇同你介紹自己叫咩嘢名? 15 吳培坤先生:冇,冇,冇,冇,冇,冇,冇。 16 李澍桓大律師:冇嘅。 17 吳培坤先生:係,係。 18 李澍桓大律師:即係佢淨係話佢就係顧問嗰邊,就上嚟睇下? 19 吳培坤先生:上嚟睇,係,上嚟睇,係,係。 20 李澍桓大律師:我想睇下你有冇見過呢張文件,同埋入面有啲內容我想問一問你嘅,同樣都 21 係F1 呢個文件冊入面第231 頁,231,係,呢個係一個所謂由宏業做嘅一個叫做 22 外牆施工,你見到喇,保護措施同埋打鑿嗰個流程嘅,最頂嗰度,你見到,睇唔睇 23 到?應該有個箭咀指住側邊。 24 吳培坤先生:唔。 25 李澍桓大律師:咁你唔使自己即刻逐張睇嘅,因為我會帶你睇某部分嘅。 26 吳培坤先生:唔,唔。 27 李澍桓大律師:如果喺下面第一個黑點,然之後去到最褸屘嗰一個句子,佢就話「喺打鑿期 28 間就會用一啲薄木板或者中空板去遮住個窗」,咁呢個就係講緊打鑿,即係你嗰個 29 工序,係咪? 30 吳培坤先生:係。 31 李澍桓大律師:咁完成後,呢度就話「當完成後,隨即拆除」。所以似乎根據宏業嘅講法, 32 你做完個封窗,首先第一嗰個封窗就似乎應該係要用薄木板或者中空板嚟做嘅,文 33 件係咁寫,我唔係話你知道。所以我想問嘅,你首先做封窗嘅時候,你有冇掂過任 34 何關於木板或者中空板去做呢個遮窗嘅工序?定還是淨係得發泡膠? 35 吳培坤先生:有。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十三天

36 本謄本由Epiq 編製 李澍桓大律師:有? 1 吳培坤先生:係,呢啲我打鑿嗰陣時第二浸先釘上去嘅。 2 李澍桓大律師:係,所以第一浸就係發泡膠? 3 吳培坤先生:係。 4 李澍桓大律師:第二浸就係木板或者中空板? 5 吳培坤先生:係。 6 李澍桓大律師:咁以你做譬如嗰三座,係咪三座都係用--第二浸用木板定係用中空板? 7 吳培坤先生:我哋呢座就用中空板。 8 李澍桓大律師:中空板? 9 吳培坤先生:係。 10 李澍桓大律師:所以其實你係咪--都係由你擺--貼上去? 11 吳培坤先生:係。 12 李澍桓大律師:所以你做咗兩次封窗,即係兩個工序,第一就貼發泡膠,跟住係咪發泡膠上 13 面再貼中空板? 14 吳培坤先生:係,臨打鑿嗰陣時先貼。 15 李澍桓大律師:臨打鑿先貼? 16 吳培坤先生:係。 17 李澍桓大律師:係又係成層一次過貼晒定係逐個單位做到嗰部分,驚會打爛啲窗先貼? 18 吳培坤先生:係,逐個單位差唔多打到先嚟貼嘅,因為呢個係第二浸嚟嘅。 19 李澍桓大律師:好,咁譬如舉個例,31 樓,你打鑿完,即係做晒你要做嘅嘢,如果根據呢度 20 所講,就應該要隨即拆除,咁你係拆咗個中空板,定還是連發泡膠都拆埋? 21 吳培坤先生:拆中空板。 22 李澍桓大律師:點解唔拆埋個發泡膠?因為發泡膠都係愛嚟保護,唔好打爛個窗㗎咋嘛? 23 吳培坤先生:因為我哋收到就係做封窗保護,第一浸就係封咗個玻璃先,第二浸臨打鑿就係 24 加咗中空板,做完就甩咗中空板,就係咁。 25 李澍桓大律師:呢個係邊一個畀嘅指示嚟? 26 吳培坤先生:我老細。 27 李澍桓大律師:即係基哥? 28 吳培坤先生:係。 29 李澍桓大律師:咁基哥就即係同你講,咁你有冇問過佢,「咁發泡膠拆唔拆」咁? 30 吳培坤先生:我有問過。 31 李澍桓大律師:係,咁佢點答你? 32 吳培坤先生:通常都唔會拆㗎。 33 李澍桓大律師:我唔想講通常,我想問基哥--因為你話你有問過基哥吖嘛。 34 吳培坤先生:係。 35 李澍桓大律師:咁基哥當時--亦都要對基哥公道,以你所講,基哥當時同你講乜? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十三天

37 本謄本由Epiq 編製 吳培坤先生:都唔好拆。 1 李澍桓大律師:唔好拆,即係叫你唔好拆? 2 吳培坤先生:係,係。 3 李澍桓大律師:如果我哋睇埋232 頁,我嘅解讀就係,因為你見到佢跟住話有第二階段,其 4 實又要再重設一個保護措施個喎,因為呢個就要拆個冷氣機之後做,咁呢一部分嘅 5 工序,即係再重新又再封窗嘅呢個工序係咪你做? 6 吳培坤先生:呢個我唔知。 7 李澍桓大律師:呢個你唔知? 8 吳培坤先生:係。 9 李澍桓大律師:你唔知嘅意思,係咪因為就係唔係你做,所以你唔知? 10 吳培坤先生:係。 11 李澍桓大律師:係咪? 12 吳培坤先生:係。 13 李澍桓大律師:最後一個--兩個問題,首先第一,我想等你睇下可唔可以澄清番嘅啫。因為 14 喺你嘅其中一份口供,我或者對你公道啲,...(聽不清)番出嚟,喺1598,如果 15 你睇1597,呢個係其中一份嘅你嘅口供? 16 吳培坤先生:係。 17 李澍桓大律師:如果你喺第5 段,臨近尾嗰度,我純粹想--首先第一,你解釋一下就係,咁 18 你就話,屘嗰四行,你入場嘅時候就已經有呢啲發泡膠板? 19 吳培坤先生:係。 20 李澍桓大律師:你就然之後就負責動工,所以啲發泡膠嘅來源、實際成分以及由邊個人--由 21 何批用,即係批准用就唔係你負責嘅? 22 吳培坤先生:唔。 23 李澍桓大律師:而你就係第一次接觸呢一款嘅發泡膠板,咁過往不論你自己承接嘅外牆維 24 修,或者之前同基哥做嘅工程,你都唔係用呢啲發泡膠板嘅,而係用另一種名為 25 「中空板」嘅材料嘅。你睇到呢段就係當時你畀警方嘅資料? 26 吳培坤先生:係。 27 李澍桓大律師:所以其實你喺宏福呢一次,你先第一次見到呢啲發泡膠,用呢個? 28 吳培坤先生:唔係,唔係,我喺出面見到有人用。 29 李澍桓大律師:係,但係你自己係第一次用? 30 吳培坤先生:係。 31 李澍桓大律師:係咪? 32 吳培坤先生:係。 33 李澍桓大律師:咁我相信就冇話過畀你知,究竟呢啲係咪--同樣地發泡膠板係咪阻燃,燒唔 34 燒得著,你就唔知㗎嘞? 35 吳培坤先生:因為我第一次用。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十三天

38 本謄本由Epiq 編製 李澍桓大律師:我知道其中--因為我哋似乎有啲人嘅講法就話個發泡膠--點解要用發泡膠, 1 就因為佢個保護性能大啲,因為打鑿嘅時候,我哋知道有好多碎石、紙皮石會跌出 2 嚟,就驚打爛個窗,係咪? 3 吳培坤先生:係。 4 李澍桓大律師:所以先要做保護,咁而有一個講法就話,發泡膠個保護能力強過中空板,所 5 以首先第一,以吳生你咁耐嘅經驗,呢個講法你覺得講唔講得通?即係發泡膠好過 6 用中空板? 7 吳培坤先生:呢個真係唔清楚。 8 李澍桓大律師:唔清楚。咁同樣地,如果喺技術上,先貼咗塊中空板,先至貼塊發泡膠,做 9 完打鑿就擝走塊發泡膠,呢個對你嚟講又有冇影響? 10 吳培坤先生:冇分別。 11 李澍桓大律師:冇分別? 12 吳培坤先生:係。 13 李澍桓大律師:即係其實如果做完個打鑿,如果面嗰浸係乜嘅,你就拆走邊浸,底嗰浸就有 14 人叫你唔好拆吖嘛因為? 15 吳培坤先生:係。 16 李澍桓大律師:係咪?第二個問題,亦都最後一個問題,就係你自己食唔食煙? 17 吳培坤先生:我食煙。 18 李澍桓大律師:你有冇見過你啲工人,知唔知道佢哋食唔食煙? 19 吳培坤先生:我工人都有啲食。 20 李澍桓大律師:都有啲食。 21 吳培坤先生:係。 22 李澍桓大律師:你有冇見過自己啲工人或者你自己喺個棚架上面食煙? 23 吳培坤先生:我冇,我喺地下。 24 李澍桓大律師:吓? 25 吳培坤先生:我喺地下。 26 李澍桓大律師:你喺地下? 27 吳培坤先生:係。 28 李澍桓大律師:工人呢? 29 吳培坤先生:工人我都有同佢哋講。 30 李澍桓大律師:講乜嘢呀? 31 吳培坤先生:唔好食煙。 32 李澍桓大律師:係。如果佢哋要食煙,通常去邊度食? 33 吳培坤先生:地下有個吸煙區。 34 李澍桓大律師:地下有吸煙區嘅。 35 吳培坤先生:係。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十三天

39 本謄本由Epiq 編製 李澍桓大律師:即係你同你啲工人都好乖,就冇試過喺棚架上面食煙嘅? 1 吳培坤先生:我就冇,佢哋我就唔知。 2 李澍桓大律師:係。但係因為正如你所講,因為我哋想--當然擔心嘅其實就係嗰個亦都係監 3 管嘅一個問題,工人上面,因為你都講,我相信最巔峰嘅時候你應該係三座同時間 4 都要做打鑿吖嘛,係咪? 5 吳培坤先生:係,係。 6 李澍桓大律師:你亦都講有超過五十個工人喺分別三座上面工作? 7 吳培坤先生:係,係。 8 李澍桓大律師:咁你就係港鵬嘅老闆叫做,即係負責請呢班同鄉返嚟做嘢? 9 吳培坤先生:係。 10 李澍桓大律師:咁你可能都係喺其中一座大廈上面幫手要做,係咪? 11 吳培坤先生:係。 12 李澍桓大律師:咁另外嗰兩座,其實嗰陣時嗰個監管... 13 吳培坤先生:唔係,我都有跟㗎。 14 李澍桓大律師:你都跟嘅? 15 吳培坤先生:係。 16 李澍桓大律師:咁你跟,你都冇可能不斷嗰八個鐘、十個鐘開工,行嚟行去㗎嘛? 17 吳培坤先生:我就係咁。 18 李澍桓大律師:就係咁? 19 吳培坤先生:係。 20 李澍桓大律師:咁喺嗰八個鐘、十個鐘不斷行嚟行去,你都見唔到有工人喺棚架上面食煙, 21 係咪咁? 22 吳培坤先生:因為有男有女㗎嘛。 23 李澍桓大律師:吓? 24 吳培坤先生:有男有女㗎嘛。 25 李澍桓大律師:有男有女? 26 吳培坤先生:係。 27 李澍桓大律師:我知,有男有女都可能食煙㗎嘛。我想了解你點樣去確保監督到即啲工人真 28 係聽話守規矩?因為我哋知道今次個火災即係認真地嚟講,有機會係因為食煙引致 29 吖嘛。 30 吳培坤先生:係。 31 李澍桓大律師:咁你點樣去監督到,就算唔係宏福苑,而家你再有新嘅工程,你點樣去監 32 督? 33 吳培坤先生:而家就嗌佢哋儘量戒煙,唔好食煙,唔好帶煙。 34 李澍桓大律師:即係叫佢哋戒煙? 35 吳培坤先生:係,直頭咁講。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十三天

40 本謄本由Epiq 編製 李澍桓大律師:我都同意呢個係最好嘅方法。 1 吳培坤先生:我自己都戒緊。 2 李澍桓大律師:嗄。主席,我冇其他問題。 3 陸啟康法官:各位涉事方有冇人想提問?孫大律師。 4 孫靖乾資深大律師:主席,我有一個問題想問一問吳先生。 5 吳先生,頭先李大律師就問到你關於做嗰個打鑿工程嘅時候嘅情況,我淨係想 6 問下,當時無論係--即係譬如話係基哥,又或者你話係宏業,即係你頭先有講過可 7 能譬如話Sam 哥、Gordon 等等,有冇任何人同你講過話嗰啲嘅發泡膠,可以係即 8 係譬如話你做打鑿嘅時候係幾層、幾層咁樣樣去做,做完之後就係將嗰啲發泡膠就 9 可以即係做完嗰幾層就拆咗出嚟,有冇人咁樣樣同你講過,即係叫你咁樣去做? 10 吳培坤先生:冇。 11 孫靖乾資深大律師:冇,好,唔該晒。 12 陸啟康法官:Okay,有冇其他問題?冇,如果冇其他問題,唔該你,你作供完畢㗎嘞,唔 13 該。 14 吳培坤先生:好。 15

16 12 時09 分港鵬工程公司負責人證人吳培坤先生作供完畢 17

18 12 時09 分明旺維修工程公司擁有人證人張明海先生開始作供 19

20 李澍桓大律師:主席,下一位都係分判商,張明海先生。 21 係,張先生,喺你面前有一個聲明嘅,咁首先或者先請你企起身,讀出嗰個聲 22 明。 23 張明海先生:我本人張明海聲明,本人所作供詞,盡本人所知、所屬,以及--咩嘢?睇唔 24 到,唔好意思。以及所屬,是--睇唔到。均實--均屬真實。 25 李澍桓大律師:好。係,請坐,張先生。首先第一,我講本地話,你聽得明嘛? 26 張明海先生:聽得明。 27 李澍桓大律師:係。唔緊要嘅,你慢慢講,因為我都明白尤其是呢度有咁多人,可能你又會 28 緊張。先講一講你個背景先,點解今日嚟,請你嚟幫我哋,就係因為你喺宏福苑嗰 29 個大維修入面,你係其中一個分判商,就做外牆嘅打鑿嘅,係咪? 30 張明海先生:係,係。 31 李澍桓大律師:咁我哋知道你其實當時就係負責宏道閣嘅嗰座大廈嘅打鑿,係咪? 32 張明海先生:係,係。 33 李澍桓大律師:就亦都喺呢個宏福苑大火之後,其實你係向警方落咗一份口供嘅,係咪? 34 張明海先生:係。 35 李澍桓大律師:咁我相信嗰份口供入面嘅內容,你都係以你自己所知係真實嘅嘢,然之後講 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十三天

41 本謄本由Epiq 編製 畀警方聽,係咪? 1 張明海先生:係,係。 2 李澍桓大律師:我喺第一部分,我就想先問咗你關於一個所謂生口嘅問題。 3 張明海先生:唔。 4 李澍桓大律師:咁我相信你頭先都有聽到你嘅行家吳先生嘅作供? 5 張明海先生:係。 6 李澍桓大律師:同樣地,我諗簡單啲,喺作為你嘅工序上面,我相信又係都係一樣,就由31 7 樓做番落地下,係咪? 8 張明海先生:係,都係一樣。 9 李澍桓大律師:咁亦都係可能分開咗A 區、B 區咁樣兩部分嚟做,係咪? 10 張明海先生:唔係,我哋係成座打落嚟。 11 李澍桓大律師:我知。所以你係--你就倒番轉,你係成個--即係譬如做完31 樓,就再做 12 30 樓咁樣? 13 張明海先生:係,成個31 樓,包括成座...(聽不清)同埋... 14 李澍桓大律師:但係我嘅意思係咪一次過你會譬如做封窗咁樣,... 15 張明海先生:係。 16 李澍桓大律師:...你係咪都係做晒31 樓先至落下一層? 17 張明海先生:係,係。 18 李澍桓大律師:好。好,所以頭先個生口嗰個問題,你都同唔同意我個觀察?其實喺要你嘅 19 工序上面,其實你唔需要呢個生口嘅,係咪? 20 張明海先生:都係,都好多冇生口嘅。 21 李澍桓大律師:即係冇生口唔會話做唔到你要做嗰啲工序㗎嘛? 22 張明海先生:唔會,唔會,唔會。 23 李澍桓大律師:即係純粹又係嗰句,都係一個方便,咁可能出入方便啲,係咪? 24 張明海先生:都係咁樣講。 25 李澍桓大律師:但係你話係咪必須,就一定唔係,係咪? 26 張明海先生:唔係,唔係,唔係。 27 李澍桓大律師:咁我想問,因為你喺你個警察嗰個供詞,或者我可以畀你睇番,因為都畢竟 28 一段時間,如果我哋睇番837 頁,第5 段,咁嗰度其實你都有講過關於呢一個生口 29 嗰個問題,你就話你12 月9 號2024 年就喺宏福苑開工,係咪? 30 張明海先生:係。 31 李澍桓大律師:最先就你一個人去,我相信就係即係搬啲架生,安排咁樣嘅情況? 32 張明海先生:係,係。 33 李澍桓大律師:我相信之後就應該有工人--你都有其他工人幫你手去做,唔係淨係你自己一 34 個人做吖嘛? 35 張明海先生:唔係。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十三天

42 本謄本由Epiq 編製 李澍桓大律師:咁你記得喺呢度第三行所講,你就話「向宏業嘅職員報到,跟住有一個男職 1 員40 歲,約1.7 米高,瘦身材,咁當時呢個男職員就指示你每五層就喺後樓梯嘅 2 位置打爛一隻玻璃窗做生口,畀工人响大廈嘅棚架行出棚架」。首先就住呢一度, 3 你講唔講得到呢個所謂宏業40 歲嘅職員其實叫咩嘢名? 4 張明海先生:其實我都唔識。 5 李澍桓大律師:係。 6 張明海先生:係。 7 李澍桓大律師:咁你點知佢係宏業嘅職員? 8 張明海先生:因為我都要做--過去做呢啲證件呢啲有睇到,喺寫字樓。 9 李澍桓大律師:即係你去寫字樓,入去嘅時候? 10 張明海先生:係,係,有睇到。 11 李澍桓大律師:有睇到乜嘢? 12 張明海先生:睇到呢個人嘛。 13 李澍桓大律師:哦,見到有呢個人。 14 張明海先生:係,係。 15 李澍桓大律師:佢係咁啱同你一齊都係行入寫字樓定坐喺寫字樓度做嘢? 16 張明海先生:佢寫字樓做嘢嘛。 17 李澍桓大律師:寫字樓做嘢。 18 張明海先生:我哋一入去報到呀,有睇到。 19 李澍桓大律師:即係你返工嘅時候去報到,你有見過呢個人? 20 張明海先生:係,係。 21 李澍桓大律師:所以你知佢係宏業嘅人? 22 張明海先生:係,係。 23 李澍桓大律師:咁之後佢就係叫咗你做一個生口,咁你呢度亦都繼續喺你嘅口供上面有講, 24 你就其實喺15 樓嗰度已經做咗一個生口,就叫你去睇下。我個理解係咪即係話呢 25 個生口就唔係你做嘅? 26 張明海先生:唔係,唔係,唔係,15 樓唔係我做。 27 李澍桓大律師:就你睇完,係咪意思就叫你照辦煮碗,每五層樓就做一個類似咁樣嘅生口? 28 張明海先生:係。 29 李澍桓大律師:我想問一問,因為呢個生口我哋知道就有道門嘅,即係每日似乎就係有個密 30 碼鎖,開工就開咗佢,你哋收工嘅時候就要閂番埋嘅,係咪? 31 張明海先生:係,係。 32 李澍桓大律師:呢道門,呢度--因為呢度有再講,開頭就係話由佢提供嘅一啲膠板,係咪呢 33 道門其實用乜嘢嘅質地去做? 34 張明海先生:我都唔知,好似係咩嘢膠板,薄薄地。 35 李澍桓大律師:因為你喺後面838 頁,問題2 嗰度,你就話佢點樣--你點樣做,就會係答 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十三天

43 本謄本由Epiq 編製 2 嗰度,你就話首先你會拆咗個玻璃窗,即係拆咗個窗嘅玻璃。 1 張明海先生:係,係。 2 李澍桓大律師:保留番個窗嘅架? 3 張明海先生:係。 4 李澍桓大律師:咁就再裝一啲鋁塑板上去嘅。 5 張明海先生:係。 6 李澍桓大律師:呢啲鋁塑板係邊一個畀你? 7 張明海先生:都係公司,公司地下,我唔知邊個。 8 李澍桓大律師:你之所以接到呢個工程就應該係透過一位姚錦輝先生搵你嘅,係咪? 9 張明海先生:係,係。 10 李澍桓大律師:佢就係--姚錦輝先生就係一間叫做承造工程有限公司嘅老闆,係咪? 11 張明海先生:係。 12 李澍桓大律師:即係佢再分判畀你? 13 張明海先生:唔。 14 李澍桓大律師:但係你呢度其實簡單啲嚟講,問題3 同答3 嗰度,你就話最褸屘你用咗木 15 板,因為嗰啲鋁塑板成日整爛。 16 張明海先生:係。 17 李澍桓大律師:咁用木板嘅呢個決定係你嘅決定定係姚先生嘅決定嚟? 18 張明海先生:唔係,當時嗰個都係用木板,我睇到人哋用木板,我哋就跟住用木板。 19 李澍桓大律師:咪住先。 20 張明海先生:係。 21 李澍桓大律師:你答問題2 嗰度就首先有提過一啲叫做鋁塑板㗎嘛。 22 張明海先生:係。 23 李澍桓大律師:咁你有冇真真正正係曾經用過呢一個叫做鋁塑板嘅先? 24 張明海先生:有。 25 李澍桓大律師:有。咁你亦都跟住講就話,呢度安裝咗幾次,就成日都整爛咗,所以就跟住 26 唔用嗰啲鋁塑板,就用咗木板吖嘛? 27 張明海先生:係,係。 28 李澍桓大律師:我個問題係,你轉用木板,唔用鋁塑板嘅呢個決定,係你張生自己嘅主意定 29 係有人畀指示你? 30 張明海先生:唔係,當時姚錦輝呢個管工。 31 李澍桓大律師:姚錦輝。 32 張明海先生:有個管工... 33 李澍桓大律師:嘅管工? 34 張明海先生:係,佢同我講換咗木板。 35 李澍桓大律師:話用木板? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十三天

44 本謄本由Epiq 編製 張明海先生:係。 1 李澍桓大律師:係,所以就唔係你自己自把自為去用木板嘅? 2 張明海先生:咁呢啲唔係,唔係。 3 李澍桓大律師:就係姚生嘅屬下一個管工叫你做嘅? 4 張明海先生:係。 5 李澍桓大律師:咁呢啲木板係你自己搵定係佢提供畀你? 6 張明海先生:佢提供。 7 李澍桓大律師:係。其中你做嘅一個程序,我哋知道亦都係做封窗。 8 張明海先生:係。 9 李澍桓大律師:咁我--你亦都交代咗,你就話係用一啲發泡膠嚟去保護個窗嘅? 10 張明海先生:係。 11 李澍桓大律師:喺--你宏福苑唔係第一次做打鑿外牆封窗嘅工程? 12 張明海先生:唔係,唔係,唔係。 13 李澍桓大律師:係咪? 14 張明海先生:係。 15 李澍桓大律師:之前你應該都有一定嘅經驗,係咪? 16 張明海先生:有。 17 李澍桓大律師:咁你之前嘅經驗入面,用呢啲發泡膠板嘅機會多唔多? 18 張明海先生:機會都好多。 19 李澍桓大律師:好多? 20 張明海先生:係,我做過都好多。 21 李澍桓大律師:你做咗呢行幾多年? 22 張明海先生:都十幾廿年。 23 李澍桓大律師:十幾廿年。 24 張明海先生:之前同人哋打工。 25 李澍桓大律師:我哋知道頭先你聽你嘅行家講都有,就其實佢就話倒番轉,佢第一次用發泡 26 膠嘅啫,反為較常見嘅就係一啲叫做中空板嘅? 27 張明海先生:係。 28 李澍桓大律師:中空板你有冇接觸過? 29 張明海先生:有。 30 李澍桓大律師:有。咁如果以個比例嚟講,你嘅自己嘅經驗,當然,用中空板去封窗多啲定 31 係用發泡膠板封窗多啲? 32 張明海先生:但我就係用發泡膠多啲。 33 李澍桓大律師:用發泡膠多啲? 34 張明海先生:唔。 35 李澍桓大律師:你係咪之前都有幫姚生做過工程㗎嘞? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十三天

45 本謄本由Epiq 編製 張明海先生:有。 1 李澍桓大律師:做過幾多單,你記唔記得? 2 張明海先生:做都做咗好多,我都唔記得。 3 李澍桓大律師:因為好似話你其實識姚生都識咗十幾年㗎喇嘛,係咪? 4 張明海先生:十幾年。 5 李澍桓大律師:咁你知道佢嗰間公司就叫做承造工程有限公司,係咪? 6 張明海先生:係。 7 李澍桓大律師:有冇喺你之前做嘅工程入面接觸過今次宏福苑嗰個大判宏業? 8 張明海先生:冇。 9 李澍桓大律師:即係之前未幫過佢哋做嘢嘅? 10 張明海先生:係。 11 李澍桓大律師:有冇聽過鴻毅呢一間公司? 12 張明海先生:冇。 13 李澍桓大律師:都冇。你頭先都講,冇可能你自己一個人做,所以下一個問題我想問一問你 14 嘅就喺嗰個管理上面,你就做一座大廈? 15 張明海先生:係。 16 李澍桓大律師:你自己有冇落手落腳做一份? 17 張明海先生:好少。 18 李澍桓大律師:即係... 19 張明海先生:我淨係去睇,管理呢啲,我自己好少做。 20 李澍桓大律師:咁你通常管理上面,有冇上去睇下佢哋有冇食煙? 21 張明海先生:上去,我一般都係佢收工,咁我先上去。 22 李澍桓大律師:唔好意思,我聽得唔清楚。 23 張明海先生:一般係工人收工,我先上棚。 24 李澍桓大律師:即係一般你工人收工,你就上棚? 25 張明海先生:係。 26 李澍桓大律師:你上棚就係睇下佢哋收工嘅時候啲嘢... 27 張明海先生:執下呢啲手尾、呢啲架生。 28 李澍桓大律師:係,泥頭係咪每日打鑿完嗰啲泥頭,每日清? 29 張明海先生:每日都清。 30 李澍桓大律師:咁即係話你--咁如果佢哋開工嘅時候,你係會喺第二個工地跟第二啲工程, 31 定係點樣? 32 張明海先生:冇呀,都係呢啲--呢個大埔呢度。 33 李澍桓大律師:吓? 34 張明海先生:都喺大埔呢度。 35 李澍桓大律師:都喺大埔呢度。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十三天

46 本謄本由Epiq 編製 張明海先生:係。 1 李澍桓大律師:但係會唔會話得閒--即係你如果講就收工嘅時候先上棚? 2 張明海先生:係。 3 李澍桓大律師:平時嘅時候有冇話巡查下,捉下佢哋有冇偷雞食煙嗰啲咁樣? 4 張明海先生:呢啲都冇,我都好少... 5 李澍桓大律師:冇捉佢哋,定還是你捉過佢哋,但係有查過佢哋好乖冇食煙? 6 張明海先生:唔係,我冇捉。 7 李澍桓大律師:冇捉,即係可唔可以咁講即係有陣時如果佢哋唔聽話偷雞喺個棚上面食煙, 8 你都未必知,係咪? 9 張明海先生:係。 10 李澍桓大律師:最後一個問題,頭先講番嗰個中空板同發泡膠嗰度,係唔係以你記得都係用 11 兩浸,即係先鋪發泡膠再鋪個中空板,係唔係咁樣? 12 張明海先生:係,都係咁樣。 13 李澍桓大律師:同樣嘅問題,其實倒番轉,鋪咗中空板先至再鋪發泡膠,對你做打鑿有冇影 14 響? 15 張明海先生:中空板--都唔得。 16 李澍桓大律師:吓? 17 張明海先生:唔得。 18 李澍桓大律師:中空板唔得? 19 張明海先生:中空板係掛牆身上嘅,咁啲中空板掛--發泡膠掛唔到嘅。 20 李澍桓大律師:即係你嘅意思,就係話做打鑿嘅時候個發泡膠唔可以掛喺個中空板上面嘅? 21 張明海先生:係。 22 李澍桓大律師:膠紙黐唔到嘅咩? 23 張明海先生:係。 24 李澍桓大律師:點解? 25 張明海先生:因為呢個中空板係釘喺牆身上嘅,唔係掛喺呢個窗口。 26 李澍桓大律師:中空板直情係即係釘喺個牆上面? 27 張明海先生:係,遮住呢個窗。 28 李澍桓大律師:但係你黐住喺中空板上面其實都可以,係咪? 29 張明海先生:都得。 30 李澍桓大律師:係囉,即係唔係話一定要發泡膠先至中空板,倒番轉都得,係咪? 31 張明海先生:都得。 32 李澍桓大律師:因為發泡膠倒番轉嗰個性質,就係你可以就咁攞個雙面膠紙貼住喺個中空板 33 度,咪可以貼住塊發泡膠,係咪呀? 34 張明海先生:係,係,都得。 35 李澍桓大律師:都可以? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十三天

47 本謄本由Epiq 編製 張明海先生:係,係 1 李澍桓大律師:我唔做工程都知。咁另外一樣嘢嘅就係如果係咁樣嘅話,你係唔係亦都同樣 2 地當你做完打鑿你自己嗰部分嘅工序嘅時候,係唔係嗰個發泡膠同埋個中空板你都 3 拆走? 4 張明海先生:冇,我哋唔拆。 5 李澍桓大律師:兩樣都冇拆? 6 張明海先生:冇,中空板有拆,發泡膠我哋唔拆。 7 李澍桓大律師:係,中空板有拆,發泡膠唔拆。發泡膠唔拆係你自己嘅決定定係有人畀指示 8 你? 9 張明海先生:姚錦輝。 10 李澍桓大律師:姚錦輝? 11 張明海先生:係。 12 李澍桓大律師:即係叫你唔好拆? 13 張明海先生:係,係。 14 李澍桓大律師:咁我哋知道你就應該大概係唔係好似2025 年3 月左右喥,其實你就應該完 15 成咗你要做嗰個工程就離場,係咪? 16 張明海先生:唔係,4 月頭。 17 李澍桓大律師:4 月頭? 18 張明海先生:係。 19 李澍桓大律師:咁就係之後應該就因為我哋知道火燭嗰日都好,有啲大廈都仲有發泡膠,咁 20 我相信中間冇人叫過你返嚟拆啲發泡膠,係咪? 21 張明海先生:冇。 22 李澍桓大律師:即係火災之前。 23 張明海先生:呢啲唔關我哋事。 24 李澍桓大律師:好,主席,我哋冇其他問題。 25 陸啟康法官:其他涉事方有冇任何問題?冇嘅話,就張生你作供完畢,你可以離開。 26 張明海先生:唔該。 27

28 12 時25 分明旺維修工程公司擁有人證人張明海先生作供完畢 29

30 陸啟康法官:我哋到今日最後一個證人,係咪? 31 杜淦堃資深大律師:冇錯,到下一位居民李國鴻先生,但係佢嘅證供會比較長,佢亦都係有 32 律師代表,所以入咗一份比較完整嘅證供。主席,似乎你嘅指示,我哋可以而家繼 33 續嘅,慳番啲時間。 34 陸啟康法官:即係咁... 35 杜淦堃資深大律師:應該食晏之前做唔完。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十三天

48 本謄本由Epiq 編製 陸啟康法官:做唔完? 1 杜淦堃資深大律師:係。 2 陸啟康法官:你認為都係唔係一個... 3 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋不如繼續,而家事不宜遲。 4 陸啟康法官:好。 5

6 12 時27 分宏福苑居民證人李國鴻先生開始作供 7

8 杜淦堃資深大律師:李先生。李先生,麻煩你同其他證人一樣,將面前嘅聲明讀出嚟。 9 李國鴻先生:本人李國鴻聲明本人所作的證供盡本人所知、所悉及所信,均屬真實。 10 杜淦堃資深大律師:多謝你。 11 李國鴻先生:可以坐? 12 杜淦堃資深大律師:你可以坐低。李先生,你好。我知道雖然你唔係宏福苑嘅居民,但係你 13 媽媽同照顧佢嗰兩位印傭姐姐就喺今次嘅火警裏面罹難,佢哋住喺宏昌閣2603 號 14 單位嘅。 15 李國鴻先生:係。 16 杜淦堃資深大律師:你亦都有法律代表,佢哋幫你準備咗一份好詳細嘅證人陳述書,喺文件 17 夾WS2/1376 頁,我相信你睇過呢份證人陳述書,你都可以確認裏面嘅內容係準確 18 嘅? 19 李國鴻先生:係。 20 杜淦堃資深大律師:之前你亦都落咗幾份口供畀警方嘅,分別喺2025 年嘅6 月、2025 年 21 嘅12 月同2026 年嘅1 月,我睇過裏面嘅內容,我相信你都可以確認佢哋係準確 22 嘅,係咪? 23 李國鴻先生:係。 24 杜淦堃資深大律師:喺你嘅證人陳述書第4 至5 段提到,其實你弟弟係宏昌閣2603 號嘅業 25 主,而喺佢搬走咗之後,就係媽媽同嗰兩位印傭姐姐就一路喺嗰度住? 26 李國鴻先生:冇錯。 27 杜淦堃資深大律師:而你自己係有經常去探望媽媽? 28 李國鴻先生:係,冇錯。 29 杜淦堃資深大律師:你嘅經驗有一樣嘢係幫到我哋嘅,就係你同我哋講其實你退休之前,你 30 自己都係從事一啲裝修嘅工作,所以做工程呢一方面你係比較留意嘅? 31 李國鴻先生:冇錯。 32 杜淦堃資深大律師:而亦都係因為咁嘅理由,你媽媽當時喺宏福苑,所以其實做緊工程嘅時 33 候,你都有關注宏福苑大維修嘅事情? 34 李國鴻先生:係,成日返去。 35 杜淦堃資深大律師:你第一份證人供詞嘅第6 段其實話咗畀我哋知,其實大火當日你弟弟同 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十三天

49 本謄本由Epiq 編製 妹妹都係去過宏福苑嗰度探媽媽嘅,係咪? 1 李國鴻先生:冇錯。 2 杜淦堃資深大律師:而其實妹妹只係喺下午兩點九離開宏福苑嘅? 3 李國鴻先生:冇錯。 4 杜淦堃資深大律師:其實佢離開嘅途中就已經接到電話知道有火警? 5 李國鴻先生:冇錯。 6 杜淦堃資深大律師:其實當時幾早嘅階段?因為我哋知道宏昌閣係大概下午2 時45 分起 7 火,其實你妹妹應該係差唔多嗰個時候離開宏昌閣嘅我哋知道。 8 李國鴻先生:其實我相信嗰陣時係燒緊嘅,不過係... 9 杜淦堃資深大律師:佢唔知? 10 李國鴻先生:...啱啱開始。 11 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁你妹妹收到電話之後就折返,係咪? 12 李國鴻先生:係。 13 杜淦堃資深大律師:佢返到宏昌閣嘅時候,據佢同你講番其實嗰陣火勢係唔係都係已經好犀 14 利? 15 李國鴻先生:啲警察已經唔畀入。 16 杜淦堃資深大律師:當時係佢即刻通知你定事後佢同你講番呢啲嘢係? 17 李國鴻先生:事後同我講。 18 杜淦堃資深大律師:而我哋知道喺你第7 段亦都提到喺宏福苑有個居民交流群組,你喺嗰度 19 得知火警消息後,你就即刻去睇媽媽住嗰個單位嘅閉路電視,係咪? 20 李國鴻先生:冇錯。 21 杜淦堃資深大律師:你都有講到你其實都多次致電咗你哋嗰位工人姐姐(English 22 Spoken),係咪? 23 李國鴻先生:係,冇錯。 24 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋睇番啲紀錄,你晏晝三點三嗰陣就同佢通話,講咗四十八秒嘅紀錄 25 睇到。 26 李國鴻先生:係。 27 杜淦堃資深大律師:而我哋喺紀錄度睇到,其實你喺3 點02 分到7 分,你都同佢都講咗五 28 次電話,即係你不停有打電畀佢,知道火燭之後? 29 李國鴻先生:係,冇錯。 30 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想講有個比較長嘅四十八秒嘅電話,佢有同你講番當時嘅情況,係 31 咪? 32 李國鴻先生:佢係好驚,即係你睇到佢喺度嗌咁樣,即係佢根本上都好似唔係答緊我,咁好 33 似...(聽不清)多電話嗰啲。 34 杜淦堃資深大律師:你喺同佢通話裏面,你當然聽到佢嗰個驚慌,你有冇聽到啲咩嘢其他嘅 35 聲音係話到畀你知嗰個情況? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十三天

50 本謄本由Epiq 編製 李國鴻先生:冇,佢喺度嗌。 1 杜淦堃資深大律師:我相信冇聽到火警鐘都? 2 李國鴻先生:冇,冇,冇,聽唔到。 3 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋其實有一個好關鍵嘅證據,就係因為當時你哋有攝錄機錄咗屋企裏 4 面嘅情況,所以就濃煙幾時攻入個單位,幾時去到26 樓,都係有喺我哋呢個調查 5 裏面起到好重要嘅作用。 6 李國鴻先生:係。 7 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係基於呢條片都影到你媽媽同嗰兩位家庭傭工嗰個情況,我哋之前都 8 有同你探討過其實你想唔想播出嚟,因為我知道對於你嚟講係難開嘅事? 9 李國鴻先生:可以。 10 杜淦堃資深大律師:我嘅理解係你都想我哋播出嚟,我哋做嘅嘢就係我哋將你媽媽同嗰兩位 11 工人姐姐我哋遮咗佢,因為其實我哋主要係想睇啲煙。我哋好多謝你嘅,因為我哋 12 知道呢個係困難嘅。 13 李國鴻先生:好,好。 14 杜淦堃資深大律師:麻煩等一等,我哋要處理一下。 15 主席,有少少技術問題可能要處理一下。 16 陸啟康法官:唔好搞錯,一定係要處理後嗰個影片。 17 杜淦堃資深大律師:當然,係,其實處理前嗰個應該冇喺個系統度。我哋--因為係較早嘅時 18 候嚟嘅,其實我哋見到,我哋想睇嘅時間係其實咁啱有個鐘喺個廳嗰度,亦都右下 19 角亦都有個(English Spoken)。我哋見到其實係火警幾早嘅階段,係2 點57 20 分嘅,我哋喺呢度而家開始播。我哋見到嘅就係--我哋會見到你嘅印傭姐姐開門, 21 佢望一望走廊嘅時候,嗰陣唔算好多煙嘅,我哋睇一睇。 22 (播放短片) 23 [女聲:...(聽不清)] 24 (短片播放完畢) 25 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋停一停睇到2 點57 同2 點59,其實我哋如果好留意睇下開門嗰 26 個情況,我哋見到係有分別嘅。2 點59 見到其實佢哋已經準備離開嘅,因為喺2 27 點59 嗰陣其實係如果好細心咁睇門嗰個情況,我哋係見到煙嘅。如果你去2 點59 28 分,我哋係可以播一播打開門之後嗰啲煙開始湧入嚟。 29 (播放短片) 30 [女聲:...(聽不清)] 31 (短片播放完畢) 32 杜淦堃資深大律師:停一停,呢度係3 點,大家如果見到最尾嗰幾秒,其實到3 點嘅時候就 33 算閂咗門,個單位裏面其實都係畀啲煙攻入咗嘅,如果我哋跳到3 點10 分嗰個片 34 段,下一個。 35 (播放短片) 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十三天

51 本謄本由Epiq 編製 (短片播放完畢) 1 杜淦堃資深大律師:其實基本上3 點10 分,我哋見到其實已經係煙霧彌漫。你提供嘅紀錄 2 其實一路去到4 點,個單位都係咁嘅情況。而你第一份證人供詞都講到,睇到屋企 3 嗰個情況呢,你3 點15 分就再打電話畀一個叫做(English Spoken),係 4 咪? 5 李國鴻先生:係呀。 6 杜淦堃資深大律師:你幾時開始睇個閉路電視,嗰陣係唔係3 點15 分? 7 李國鴻先生:我喺WhatsApp 群組嗰度見到有人嗌火燭,即係宏福苑嗰個WhatsApp 群 8 組,咁我即刻開嚟睇屋企個(English Spoken)。 9 杜淦堃資深大律師:幾多點第一次睇你自己?你見到嘅時候。 10 李國鴻先生:係,係。 11 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白。我哋為咗--因為冇再需要睇啲錄影。我哋睇下喺O1/258 頁有啲 12 截圖做咗出嚟。你去睇259,其實我哋見到就係之後,如果我哋喺259 嗰度一路睇 13 落去,個單位其實後期嘅情況嗰個煙係散咗嘅,如果去到第二日,11 月27 號下午 14 一點鐘喥先至係見唔到煙嘅,而我哋喺截圖度都睇到,後來消防員係進入咗呢個單 15 位? 16 李國鴻先生:係。 17 杜淦堃資深大律師:當然你有自己睇過呢啲錄影? 18 李國鴻先生:我有睇過,佢入去搵--𠳕啲櫃,睇下有冇人匿埋。 19 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁樣講啱唔啱?因為你睇過晒。其實個單位本身並冇被火燒到嘅,但似 20 乎係有一段幾長嘅時間畀濃煙攻陷咗? 21 李國鴻先生:係,冇錯。 22 杜淦堃資深大律師:你證人陳述書第12 段提到你火災後一兩日,警方就通知你其實喺隔籬 23 嘅單位2608 就發現咗五具遺體,包括咗一名坐輪椅嘅婆婆,就係你媽媽? 24 李國鴻先生:係,冇錯。 25 杜淦堃資深大律師:同埋你嗰兩位家庭傭工? 26 李國鴻先生:係。 27 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係換句話講,似乎睇到個紀錄,我哋重組番個情況,佢哋應該係出咗 28 去之後,走咗去鄰居嘅單位度嘅? 29 李國鴻先生:係,因為佢哋驚,想搵人幫手。 30 杜淦堃資深大律師:而好不幸地--喺嗰個單位嗰度似乎鄰居係有畀佢哋入去,而但係不幸地 31 鄰居都係罹難嘅? 32 李國鴻先生:係。 33 杜淦堃資深大律師:就當日嘅情況我想問你嘅係咁多,因為其實我哋好多謝你攞番呢啲錄影 34 出嚟,當時嘅情況因為你自己唔在場,其實你都係睇呢啲紀錄,同埋留意到喺有啲 35 WhatsApp 群組講個火警,係咪? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十三天

52 本謄本由Epiq 編製 李國鴻先生:唔。 1 杜淦堃資深大律師:跟住落嚟我想問你一啲關於工程會議討論過嘅安全問題。 2 李國鴻先生:好。 3 杜淦堃資深大律師:正如你所講你一路有留意大維修嘅情況,而你喺畀警方嘅口供,你話喺 4 2024 年10 月份開始參與宏福苑維修工程,你同警方講基本上你每次都會出席嘅, 5 係咪? 6 李國鴻先生:係,冇錯。 7 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢啲工程會議係唔係如果我哋咁樣講啱唔啱?喺新嘅管委會上任之後, 8 每逢禮拜六宏業同埋鴻毅同埋法團都會一齊參加呢啲工程? 9 李國鴻先生:冇錯,冇錯。 10 杜淦堃資深大律師:你記唔記得你大概去過幾多次? 11 李國鴻先生:冇停過應該。 12 杜淦堃資深大律師:每個禮拜都開㗎? 13 李國鴻先生:唔係,佢開到唔知--開咗成半年都應該係逢星期六開嘅,即係好耐。 14 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想集中請你幫助我哋一個議題,就係你證人供詞第26 段裏面就話其實 15 鴻毅喺2023 嘅11 月,或者我哋睇番你嘅證人供詞,喺WS2/1381,你提到喺 16 2023 年11 月10 日有個回標後提問事宜嘅,裏面你講到就係曾經有個討論,就係 17 大維修係唔係應該分階段進行,你記得嘛? 18 李國鴻先生:係,記得。 19 杜淦堃資深大律師:係唔係先然後先做四座外牆,定係一次過做八座,呢方面嘅問題其實有 20 居民喺新嘅管委會召開工程會議上高指出過呢個問題,你記唔記得喺邊個階段討 21 論? 22 李國鴻先生:你意思係? 23 杜淦堃資深大律師:四座定八座嗰個? 24 李國鴻先生:因為嗰陣時我哋問佢,宏業佢哋就係話係上屆主席鄧國權先生想早啲完,所以 25 咪要搭完就即刻開工搭其他嗰啲座。 26 杜淦堃資深大律師:就呢個問題你當時係提出過一啲嘅睇法嘅? 27 李國鴻先生:其實我哋唔同意嘅,即係佢話應承咗,但係我哋亦都曾經問過佢,即係淨係口 28 講嘅,全部冇呢個書信來往嘅,我都覺得好奇怪。 29 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想問下你,你哋就係口講,你係同宏業講,係咪? 30 李國鴻先生:我喺工程會嗰度問過佢哋。 31 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁當時但係你嗰個記憶都係問過,但係佢哋就堅持八座一齊做嘅? 32 李國鴻先生:係,佢話因為係鄧先生話想早啲完工,咁我記得其中仲有一個郭(譯音)生就 33 問「仲前嗰個法團鄧生應承咗你哋乜嘢?唔該你寫晒出嚟。」但係宏業完全係冇回 34 覆。 35 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋睇番頭先嗰個回標後提問事宜嗰份文件,喺O1/698,呢份係你所 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十三天

53 本謄本由Epiq 編製 指嗰份,係咪?你睇過嘅? 1 李國鴻先生:係,我有睇過。 2 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋睇下佢呢度,有另外一個問題我想你睇下幫唔幫到我哋。如果我哋 3 落少少睇3,(i)同(ii)。你都有提到,我哋見到呢幾段講到其實宏福苑嗰個工程 4 造價同其他屋苑嘅工程去比較,其實都算係相當昂貴同埋高咗好多? 5 李國鴻先生:好貴,係。 6 杜淦堃資深大律師:而我哋睇下第(ii)嗰度現有工程宗數及總營業額,約五單,跟住佢講咗 7 個總營業額一千... 8 李國鴻先生:一億三千。 9 杜淦堃資深大律師:$1 億3,000 萬,即係換句話講,就宏業做宏福苑呢個工程,其實係宏 10 業個總營業額每年三倍,呢個都係當時一啲嘅提問得出嚟嘅答案,係咪? 11 李國鴻先生:呢個係佢答番呢個鴻毅嘅,就唔係我問佢嘅。 12 杜淦堃資深大律師:你睇699,下一頁,當時都有提過話分期同埋全面做嗰個優點同缺點 13 嘅,你見到嘛? 14 李國鴻先生:呢一份文件係佢回答番鴻毅嘅提問。 15 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白。但係因為呢份文件係你哋居民提供嘅,你有睇過呢份文件? 16 李國鴻先生:我有睇過。 17 杜淦堃資深大律師:你第一次睇係幾時? 18 李國鴻先生:唔記得。 19 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係當工程進行緊...(聽不清) 20 李國鴻先生:係。 21 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋睇到699,之後我哋再如果去睇第8 段講咗,我頭先話分期定係一 22 齊做嗰個問題咁樣。 23 李國鴻先生:係。 24 杜淦堃資深大律師:而我哋睇21,亦都有講過工程將會如何安排,是否分階段進行,一次過 25 八座,佢呢度就講「先搭建四座次外牆棚架,完成後隨即搭建另外四座」,你見到 26 呢度咁講? 27 李國鴻先生:係,我哋咪問佢。 28 杜淦堃資深大律師:當時其實你嘅理解,可唔可以咁講其實初初初個共識係做咗四座先嘅, 29 係咪? 30 李國鴻先生:係。 31 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係後來就改變咗? 32 李國鴻先生:係,佢話前主席要求快啲完成。 33 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係你嘅記憶,就係呢一個就係點解一次過做八座嗰個理由? 34 李國鴻先生:係,係。 35 杜淦堃資深大律師:另外,我想睇你證人陳述書嘅第30 段,1382,第4 嗰度,你見到嘛? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十三天

54 本謄本由Epiq 編製 呢度講到就係合約訂明佢哋需要做一個臨時鋼鐵有蓋行人通道嘅,其中一樣你提過 1 嘅嘢,你記得? 2 李國鴻先生:係,記得。 3 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋可以畀你睇番一啲圖片,喺O1/684 頁,我哋見到你哋提供嘅資 4 料,後嚟係用竹棚就咁搭咗呢個通道嘅,你當時有留意呢個情況,係咪? 5 李國鴻先生:我有問過佢添。 6 杜淦堃資深大律師:你就係因為呢件事,你就向鴻毅質詢,你個回覆就係話假如施工嘅地方 7 上面係石屎樓層先至會搭建有蓋嘅鋼鐵嘅行人通道,係咪? 8 李國鴻先生:冇錯。 9 杜淦堃資深大律師:你同鴻毅質詢,你喺工程會議上問佢定係點樣問㗎? 10 李國鴻先生:工程會議上,其實我喺--因為工程佢哋開會,我哋街坊就坐喺側邊,其實問佢 11 係得幾分鐘--十幾分鐘咁嘅啫。 12 杜淦堃資深大律師:點解你會特別關注呢個問題? 13 李國鴻先生:因為我睇合約裏面所有嘢應該要跟合約去做,但係佢好多嘢都唔跟嘅,用把口 14 去講嘅,點解呢?咁寫份合約喺做咩嘢呢? 15 杜淦堃資深大律師:換句話講,你睇個合約文件,你就見到係要做。或者我哋睇O1/430 16 頁,你有睇過呢啲合約文件嘅,係咪? 17 李國鴻先生:有。 18 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋見到第三項中間,你所指嘅係臨--而家電腦我哋右手面第三項見到 19 「臨時鋼鐵有蓋行人通道嘅頂蓋」,你指緊嘅係呢一項,係咪? 20 李國鴻先生:係。 21 杜淦堃資深大律師:之後嘅會議裏面,我哋見到係有質詢過,而當時似乎就係話會跟進嘅, 22 如果你睇H1-3/6024 頁,一路落,6025 去到。係,你見到臨時鋼鐵行人通道, 23 跟住鴻毅話會跟進嘅,據你所知呢個事情係冇處理過,係咪? 24 李國鴻先生:冇,冇處理過。 25 杜淦堃資深大律師:而你喺第30 段想講畀我哋聽嘅,就係你覺得有冇起呢個鋼鐵嘅有蓋行 26 人通道喺對於個火警時候個逃生可能都會有影響,係咪? 27 李國鴻先生:係,我就覺得有影響,因為你跌晒啲嘢落嚟,封住咗個門口,啲人都走唔到出 28 嚟。 29 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔該晒你。 30 主席,呢個可能係一個合適嘅時間。 31 李國鴻先生:好,我哋押後到下晝2 點15 分,好唔好?唔該。 32

33 12 時52 分聆訊押後 34 14 時15 分聆訊恢復 35

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就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十三天

55 本謄本由Epiq 編製 陸啟康法官:係,請繼續。 1 杜淦堃資深大律師:李先生,你好。 2 李國鴻先生:係。 3 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋睇到你喺你嘅證人供詞裏面提到,其實你都有關注棚架外,工人吸 4 煙同埋發泡膠嘅問題嘅。 5 李國鴻先生:係。 6 杜淦堃資深大律師:想首先請你講一講嘅就係,你提到居民喺Facebook 群組裏面其實都講 7 咗呢啲嘅問題,我想問番你嘅就係你親眼見到嘅嘢。第一,工人吸煙嗰個,你可唔 8 可以都講一講畀我哋聽你見過啲咩嘢? 9 李國鴻先生:我喺Facebook 群組嗰度發布過就嗰啲棚網,同埋就有啲街坊就send 咗啲 10 吸煙嗰啲相出嚟嘅,咁我就擺上去問,我話「呢啲吸煙嗰啲係咪宏業啲工人?」咁 11 佢哋就話「係」。 12 杜淦堃資深大律師:另外,你亦都喺畀委員會嗰個表格裏面講過話,其實喺啲工程會議裏面 13 都有人投訴過棚架上高有人吸煙嘅問題,你可唔可以都講一講你就呢一方面嘅記憶 14 係點? 15 李國鴻先生:喺工程會嗰度,就曾經問過呢個宏業同埋鴻毅,「你哋成日有人喺啲棚架上面 16 吸煙」,佢哋就問佢「你哋」--法團就問佢哋「你哋點樣即係處理呢個問題」咁 17 囉,佢哋就喺度講數,話要罰錢咁之類。 18 杜淦堃資深大律師:另外,就工人吸煙嘅問題同埋一啲其他嘅職業安全問題,例如佢哋冇佩 19 戴安全帶,有時,你講係--你嘅講法係你打過去勞工處個熱線嗰度投訴嘅,係咪? 20 李國鴻先生:係,佢冇戴呢個安全帶同埋呢個安全帽嗰啲。 21 杜淦堃資深大律師:你證人供詞裏面就講得幾清楚,喺第44 段度就話你記得就係2024 年 22 9 月打嘅,咁我想問下你呢個日子係咪你好肯定,定係其實可能都係嗰一排? 23 李國鴻先生:約莫係9 月,因為開工程會係9 月底,唔知好似10 月頭定9 月底,應該係9 24 月底嘅。 25 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白。其實我想問你係因為我哋睇番勞工處畀嘅紀錄,似乎9 月底係冇 26 人投訴呢啲嘢。但係你都講咗,其實係一個大概嘅日子。 27 李國鴻先生:係囉,係囉。 28 杜淦堃資深大律師:可能你另外一啲時間打過去? 29 李國鴻先生:係。 30 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白。 31 李國鴻先生:唔係,我打嗰個咩嘢職安健定乜嘢... 32 杜淦堃資深大律師:職安健嗰個熱線,係咪? 33 李國鴻先生:... 嗰個熱線。 34 杜淦堃資深大律師:好。另外一方面發泡膠,你關注過兩件事,發泡膠封窗,呢個係咪一個 35 可燃嘅物料。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十三天

56 本謄本由Epiq 編製 李國鴻先生:係。 1 杜淦堃資深大律師:你喺畀我哋嘅表格裏面都提到,宏業係其實提供過一段火燒發泡膠嘅短 2 片。 3 李國鴻先生:係。 4 杜淦堃資深大律師:同埋佢哋都話嗰啲發泡膠有證書,燒唔著嘅,係咪? 5 李國鴻先生:係,係。 6 孫靖乾資深大律師:喺工程會議嗰度講嘅,係咪? 7 李國鴻先生:係,冇錯,佢仲畀條片我哋睇添。 8 杜淦堃資深大律師:個證書你有冇--佢哋有冇畀過你睇? 9 李國鴻先生:冇。 10 杜淦堃資深大律師:就呢一件事,你都係提到你打過去消防處嗰度投訴嘅,係咪? 11 李國鴻先生:我係返到屋企就見到佢封晒啲窗,咁我覺得好危險,咁我咪打電話去消防處嗰 12 度問佢,「用發泡膠封窗會唔會犯法?」咁嗰個消--唔知消防處嗰度嗰個職員佢就 13 話佢都要查下,咁約莫兩星期後,佢就覆番我個 嗰個電話嗰度。 14 杜淦堃資深大律師:又係有啲可能日期細節嘅問題,我相信如果睇番紀錄,你唔止打過一次 15 去消防處嗰度投訴,係咪? 16 李國鴻先生:係。 17 杜淦堃資深大律師:你亦都有投訴過發泡膠嘅問題同埋防火門嘅問題? 18 李國鴻先生:同埋呢個--同埋防火門。 19 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,你應該係分開多過一次打去? 20 李國鴻先生:係,兩次。 21 杜淦堃資深大律師:至於每一次係幾時? 22 李國鴻先生:唔記得。 23 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔記得,明白。好,你又提過--你喺警方嘅口供提過生口嘅問題,你自 24 己都有去後樓梯巡過,係咪? 25 李國鴻先生:睇過。 26 杜淦堃資深大律師:當時你就生口個問題,你有冇提出過畀任何人? 27 李國鴻先生:冇,冇,冇,冇。 28 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白。第二樣嘢我想同你講嘅就--探討嘅就係關於嗰啲授權票嘅問題。 29 李國鴻先生:係。 30 杜淦堃資深大律師:因為你喺證人供詞裏面亦都講過,你覺得因為有大量嘅授權票,所以導 31 致宏業被選做承辦商,係咪? 32 李國鴻先生:嗄。 33 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁你亦都話,同埋呢個問題就會--呢個做法亦都令到後來選擇幾個方 34 案,就揀咗一個方案三,... 35 李國鴻先生:係。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十三天

57 本謄本由Epiq 編製 杜淦堃資深大律師:...貴啲嘅,唔係揀咗個平啲嘅,係咪?即係你覺得呢個係個授權票嘅 1 問題? 2 李國鴻先生:係。 3 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想你幫一幫我哋嘅,因為你唔係業主,其實你冇親身出席嗰個大會去 4 揀嘅,係咪? 5 李國鴻先生:係,嗄。 6 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係呢啲資料你亦都--好公道咁講,你係喺啲街坊度嗰度聽番嚟? 7 李國鴻先生:唔係,你睇《東張西望》你都睇到啲人想去開會,係唔畀入嘅,即係影晒出嚟 8 㗎嘞。咁我即係同啲街坊講,就見到即係佢哋話畀我聽,佢哋好多授權票咁樣囉。 9 杜淦堃資深大律師:或者我咁講啱唔啱?我哋知道有啲居民係投訴咗去你頭先所講《東張西 10 望》,至於嗰啲係乜嘢會議,即係工程會定係其他嘅... 11 李國鴻先生:應該業--工程--佢唔知開嗰啲會係普通講嗰啲維修嗰啲會嚟嘅。 12 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,但係咁講啱唔啱?因為你--我而家想問一問你自己記憶,你所指話 13 《東張西望》報嗰啲應該唔係2024 年1 月28 號嗰一次嚟嘅? 14 李國鴻先生:唔係,唔係,唔係。 15 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,我想--我唔想誤解你嘅。而你呢啲資料,即係話1 月28 號發生咩 16 嘢事,其實你喺其他--你都講過,你喺其他街坊嗰度聽番嚟? 17 李國鴻先生:係。 18 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係你提過江生、葉生。 19 李國鴻先生:係,係。 20 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁講啱唔啱?如果我冇理解錯你嘅投訴,你唔係投訴緊話個授權票本身 21 嘅問題,你似乎個投訴係話有人利用啲不當嘅手法攞到啲授權票? 22 李國鴻先生:冇錯。 23 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢個係你關注嘅問題。而呢一方面,我都想睇下你有冇其他證據畀到我 24 哋,因為我哋知道你係有聽過一啲廣泛喺街坊嗰度講嘅呢啲咁嘅問題,但係似乎都 25 係就呢一方面,你自己係冇接觸嘅,你都係轉述番街坊流傳嘅... 26 李國鴻先生:流--呢個授權票嗰啲都係。 27 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,明白。你喺你嘅證人供詞亦都提到新嘅管委會上任之後,你覺得個 28 透明度有改善嘅,起碼其他居民可以睇到,查閱到同宏業嘅合約嘅? 29 李國鴻先生:冇錯。 30 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢個係你當時嘅感覺,係咪?如果我想問一問你嗰個睇法就係,相比舊 31 同埋新嘅管委會,換咗屆之後,你似乎嘅講法就係你覺得好多方面都有改善嘅,係 32 咪? 33 李國鴻先生:冇錯。我起碼成份合約都攞到囉。 34 杜淦堃資深大律師:另外,你喺你嘅證人供詞裏面其實都解釋咗好多你對工程唔滿意嘅地 35 方,話委員會當然會去睇有關嘅段落,我哋之後陳詞亦都會詳細咁考慮,因為嗰個 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十三天

58 本謄本由Epiq 編製 長度,我哋唔每一段或者每一個指控都叫你重複。咁喺--除咗我剛剛問過你嘅嘢之 1 外,你有冇其他嘢想用呢個機會同主席同兩位委員補充? 2 李國鴻先生:你講? 3 杜淦堃資深大律師:任何你想同主席或者兩位委員講嘅嘢,你可以簡短咁去--嗄。 4 李國鴻先生:其實市建局設立咗嗰個招標妥。但係我哋向市建局投訴嗰陣時,佢就叫我問番 5 嗰啲宏福苑嘅顧問,但係我就覺得個顧問有問題,你又叫我去問番嗰個顧問,咁呢 6 個招標妥有咩嘢用?仲有,嗰啲工人,我哋發覺有問題就嗰啲工人就咁樣答嘅「我 7 哋經招標妥出嚟嘅,有政府監管」,咁其實係監咩嘢管呢?我淨係想問下呢樣。 8 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白。主席,我冇其他問題。 9 陸啟康法官:其他涉事方有冇人想問?孫大律師。 10 孫靖乾資深大律師:好,主席,只係有個簡單澄清嘅問題。 11 係,李先生,其實純粹係想同你澄清一下,因為我都見到你係有你嘅第二份嘅 12 證人供詞。 13 李國鴻先生:係。 14 孫靖乾資深大律師:第二份嘅證人供詞裏面,你就有講過話你記得你喺2024 年嘅10 月同 15 埋11 月期間,就曾經就係打過電話去消防處。 16 李國鴻先生:係。 17 孫靖乾資深大律師:咁就係去投訴關於嗰個發泡膠嗰個情況,係。 18 李國鴻先生:一次係發泡膠,一次係防火門。 19 孫靖乾資深大律師:係,防火門嗰個就--消防處嗰度都搵到嗰個紀錄。咁關於嗰個發泡膠嗰 20 度,咁我見到你個證人供詞裏面都有講到個情況,咁我哋亦都有因應地就係再去搵 21 番,其實就我哋就睇唔到有任何嘅紀錄就係針對嗰個發泡膠,係即係消防嘅投訴或 22 者查詢熱線,或者個通訊中心係打番電話畀你,或者你係打番畀佢。 23 李國鴻先生:唔係。 24 孫靖乾資深大律師:咁我想問下你,你話你記得應該係你用你嘅手提電話收到嘅。 25 李國鴻先生:係。 26 孫靖乾資深大律師:純粹為咗方便我哋如果--我哋可以再進一步去搜--即係我哋去搜索下。 27 李國鴻先生:好。 28 孫靖乾資深大律師:即係會唔會有機會除咗你個手提電話之外,會唔會仲有可能係你用其他 29 嘅電話嘅號碼係收到? 30 李國鴻先生:應該唔會。 31 孫靖乾資深大律師:應該唔會嘅? 32 李國鴻先生:應該唔會。 33 孫靖乾資深大律師:係,咁唔緊要,即係呢個我純粹話暫時我哋睇嗰個紀錄就睇唔到,我純 34 粹確認番啫。 35 李國鴻先生:因為嗰個男士打電話嚟話畀我聽,「暫時搵唔到黐咩嘢上去有呢個犯罪行為」 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十三天

59 本謄本由Epiq 編製 之類嗰啲嘢。 1 孫靖乾資深大律師:好,唔緊要,李先生,唔該你,我哋會即係繼續去睇下會唔會搵到相關 2 嘅紀錄。 3 李國鴻先生:好,好,好,好。 4 孫靖乾資深大律師:唔該你先。 5 陸啟康法官:好,咁唔該晒,咁我諗李生,其實我諗你頭先所提出嘅問題亦都係我哋委員會 6 會探討嘅問題,咁對於你媽媽過身,即係節哀順變,咁好多謝你提供嘅證供,對我 7 哋嗰個--呢個嘅調查非常之有用嘅。今日好多謝你上嚟畀證供,多謝你,李生。 8 李國鴻先生:好,唔該。 9

10 14 時27 分宏福苑居民證人李國鴻先生作供完畢 11

12 杜淦堃資深大律師:主席,今日我哋冇安排其他嘅證人,我可以同主席預告就係聽日相信會 13 係--個聆訊會係長一啲嘅,因為有兩位證人,而第二位可能我哋聽日未必會一日做 14 得完嘅。 15 陸啟康法官:Okay,咁我哋聽日就10 點鐘繼續,聽日10 點。 16

17 14 時28 聆訊押後 18 (聆訊將於2026 年4 月17 日10 時00 分繼續) 19

20

FD06253 | 2025_港澳台_香港宏福苑大火_Transcript-(Chinese)_20260417.pdf

分类:06_境外及港澳台调查报告 | 年份:2025 | 地域:香港 | 严重程度: | 场所: | 起火原因: | 来源格式:pdf

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十四天

本謄本由E piq 䶐墥

就大埔宏福苑火災成立的獨立委員會

倥嫱㚫

檀䫱㱽昊⍇姇㱽⹕映┇⹟㱽⭀ 昛‍㲊嬘⒉ 㫸春ỗ㪲⌂⢓

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第十四天 2026 年4 月17 日

杜淦堃資深大律師、俞匡庭大律師、李澍桓大律師、馮天榮大律師、張天 風大律師及李俊軒大律師代表獨立委員會

孫靖乾資深大律師、陸栩然大律師、卓元暢大律師及劉逸冲大律師代表政 府

李律仁資深大律師及柯愷欣大律師代表宏褔苑業主立案法團第十二屆管理 委員會代表大律師

楊志聰大律師代表置邦興業有限公司代表大律師

律政司代表

黃俊嘉大律師及李峰琦大律師代表宏福苑居民

競爭事務委員會代表

呂世杰資深大律師及阮文躍大律師代表市區重建局

⎰⬱䭉䎮㚱旸℔⎠ẋ堐

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十四天

1 本謄本由E piq 編製

ẍᶳℏ⭡ᷫ 修妲㔠䡤抬枛媬㛔 1

2 10 㗪0 ↮修妲《⽑ 3

4 映┇⹟㱽⭀烉Ὢ炻㛶⣏⼳ⷓˤ 5 㛶㼵㟻⣏⼳ⷓ烉Ὢ炻㖑㘐炻ᷣ ⷕˤṲ㛅⎓▭䫔ᶨỵ嫱ṢὪ挦㼌㕘⃰ 䓇炻ᶵ忶╢㛒⎓ᷳ ⇵ㆹ゛ 6 ⃰ 悥⎹ᷣ ⷕṌẋ炻椾⃰ 炻挦⃰ 䓇㚱㨇㚫Ὢ℞ᷕ ᶨᾳ㚨㍍役ㆹ⑳䚠ᾉὪ崟䀓▘ᾳ䀓㸸 7 ▭╢㢂㝞▭ᶨᾳⶍṢ炻␩㇨ẍㆹ⑳䔞䃞゛挦⃰ 䓇䛯ᶳ⎗Ⓖ⎗ẍ⸓⇘ㆹ⑳Ḯ妋䔞㗪▭ 8 ね㱩炻␩╢⓷⓷柴▭忶䦳ℍ朊炻ㆹ⎗傥悥㚫䓨挦⃰ 䓇䛯䔒ᶨ㡅℞⮎ㆹ⑳㚦䴻䛯忶炻 9 崟䀓╢▘ᾳ䓇⎋㢂㝞▘⹎▘ᾳ䇯㭝▭ˤ␩㇨ẍ⤪㝄⛐⟜▭Ṣ⢓ㆾ侭ㆾ侭䛯䵲廱㑕▭ 10

Ṣ⢓炻⤪㝄㚱暨天䛯⬴ᾳ䇯㭝暨天⮳㯪ね䵺▭㓗㎜␊炻␩ⶴ㛃Ἂ⎗ẍ㍍妠⇘ㆹ⑳▘ 1

ᾳ⮰㤕Ṣ⢓ˤ侴⭞婳挦㼌㕘⃰ 䓇ˤ 12

13

10 㗪0 2 ↮⛘䚌ⶍṢ嫱Ṣ挦㼌㕘⃰ 䓇攳⥳ἄὃ 14

15

㛶㼵㟻⣏⼳ⷓ烉Ὢ炻挦⃰ 䓇ˤ 16

挦㼌㕘⃰ 䓇烉Ὢˤ 17

㛶㼵㟻⣏⼳ⷓ烉Ἀ㓞⤥ᾳ幓ấ嫱⃰ ˤ 18

挦㼌㕘⃰ 䓇烉⤥炻⤥ˤ 19

㛶㼵㟻⣏⼳ⷓ烉╢Ἀ朊⇵㚱ᶨ⻝倚㖶▭ˤ 20

挦㼌㕘⃰ 䓇烉Ὢˤ 21

㛶㼵㟻⣏⼳ⷓ烉湣䄑Ἀ⃰ ẩ崟幓嬨↢▘ᾳ倚㖶▭ℏ⭡ˤ 2

挦㼌㕘⃰ 䓇烉㛔Ṣ挦㼌㕘炻㛔Ṣ㇨ἄ▭嫱ὃ炻䚉㛔Ṣ㇨䞍ˣ㇨〱ˣ㇨ᾉ炻⛯Ⱄ䛇妨ˤ 23

㛶㼵㟻⣏⼳ⷓ烉⤥炻婳⛸ˤ挦⃰ 䓇炻Ṳ㖍ㆹ⑳婳Ἀ♇␊炻⯙⚈䁢ㆹ⑳䞍忻Ἀ╢⣏㤪2025 ⸜ 24

9 㚰ᷕ ⶎ⎛⯙╢⬷䤷剹攳⥳ ᶨᾳ㇨媪⎓ 㚜㎃䳁䙖䞛▭ⶍἄ▭炻Ὢ⑒烎 25

挦㼌㕘⃰ 䓇烉Ὢˤ 26

㛶㼵㟻⣏⼳ⷓ烉ㆹ⑳䓂军᷶ 䞍忻℞⮎Ἀ➢㛔ᶲ⯙Ὢ╢⬷㖴敋▘ᾳ⣏⹰⹎ ␊ᶨᾳ㎃䳁䙖䞛▭ 27

ⶍἄ炻Ὢ⑒烎 28

挦㼌㕘⃰ 䓇烉Ὢˤ 29

㛶㼵㟻⣏⼳ⷓ烉侴╢⣏䀓䔞㖍炻⌛Ὢ2025 ⸜1 㚰26 嘇炻Ἀ䔞㖍悥Ὢ╢㢂㝞ᶲ朊攳䵲ⶍ 30

▭烎 31

挦㼌㕘⃰ 䓇烉Ὢˤ 32

㛶㼵㟻⣏⼳ⷓ烉ㆹ⑳䞍忻Ἀ╢⣏䀓ᷳ ⼴℞⮎悥⎹嬎㕡㍸ὃ␿ᶨấ⎋ὃ▭炻Ἀ姀Ⓖ姀⼿烎 3

挦㼌㕘⃰ 䓇烉姀⼿ˤ 34

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十四天

2 本謄本由E piq 編製 㛶㼵㟻⣏⼳ⷓ烉ㆹ䚠ᾉ╢⎋ὃℍ朊Ἀ⎹嬎㕡Ṍẋ▭ḳね悥ὪἈ䔞㗪㇨䞍㇨ᾉὪ䛇⮎▭◊炻䃞 1 ᷳ ⼴嫃䓨嬎㕡倥▭炻Ὢ⑒烎 2 挦㼌㕘⃰ 䓇烉Ὢˤ 3 㛶㼵㟻⣏⼳ⷓ烉Ⓖˤㆹ䞍忻ἈὪ德忶㚳⍳⯙- 䃞ᷳ ⼴ṳ䳡⍣␿⬷䤷剹⬷㖴敋▘⹎攳ⶍ▭烎 4 挦㼌㕘⃰ 䓇烉Ὢˤ 5 㛶㼵㟻⣏⼳ⷓ烉╢攳ⶍᷳ ⇵悥Ὢ⓷ᶨ⓷Ἀ炻㚱ℯᶲ忶ᶨ┚㇨媪⬱ℐ婚炻䓙┚⬱ℐᷣ ả嫃妋ᶨ 6 ┚⬱ℐ䞍嬀䓨Ἀ䞍⏨烎 7 挦㼌㕘⃰ 䓇烉ℯ┶␩⍰ˤ 8 㛶㼵㟻⣏⼳ⷓ烉ℯ炻␩㚱ℯἈ▭䭉ⶍㆾ侭℞ṾἈ㇨䞍⎗傥Ὢ㈧彎⓮▭Ṣ嫃忶䓨Ἀ䞍炻嬔⤪⤪ 9 㝄㚱䀓嬎▭娙炻ㅱ娚溆㧋徫䓇炻ᶨ┚⬱ℐ▭㍒㕥㚱ℯṢ⎴Ἀ嫃忶⏨烎 10

挦㼌㕘⃰ 䓇烉ℯˤ 1

㛶㼵㟻⣏⼳ⷓ烉Ἀ攳ⶍ▭㗪῁℞⮎㚱ℯᶨᾳ䭉ⶍὪ䭉䎮Ἀ⑳ⶉ夾Ἀ⑳ⶍἄ׀烎 12

挦㼌㕘⃰ 䓇烉㚱ˤ 13

㛶㼵㟻⣏⼳ⷓ烉ỮὪ␊ᾳ䭉ⶍ悥ℯ⎴ἈṌẋ忶嬔⤪⬱ℐ▭ᶨ┚天㲐シ▭⛘㕡▭烎 14

挦㼌㕘⃰ 䓇烉悥㚱▭炻嬔⤪娙. .

15

㛶㼵㟻⣏⼳ⷓ烉Ἂ⎴Ἀ嫃忶┚Ḅ׀忂ⷠ 烎 16

挦㼌㕘⃰ 䓇烉⌛Ὢ娙ⒼⅮ梇䄁ˤ 17

㛶㼵㟻⣏⼳ⷓ烉Ὢˤ 18

挦㼌㕘⃰ 䓇烉ⒼⅮ␊ᾳ- ╢ᶲ朊ⒼⅮ梇䄁炻Ὢ⛘䚌ˤ 19

㛶㼵㟻⣏⼳ⷓ烉ˬᶲ朊˭▭シ⿅⌛Ὢ㢂㝞烎 20

挦㼌㕘⃰ 䓇烉Ὢ炻Ὢ炻Ὢ炻Ὢˤ 21

㛶㼵㟻⣏⼳ⷓ烉Okay 炻Ⓖˤㆹ゛䓨䫔ᶨ㡅䇯㭝Ἀ䛯炻⚈䁢ㆹ婿㚨䯉╖⯙Ὢ䫱Ἀ⎗ẍ妋慳䓨ㆹ 2

⑳䞍䨞䪇Ἀᾳⶍἄᶲ朊Ὢ溆㧋ˤ㇨ẍㆹ⑳䞍忻Ἀ╢1 㚰26 嘇䔞㖍Ἀ℞⮎⯙ㅱ娚╢ 23

⣏㤪╢⬷㖴敋4 㦻▘ᾳỵ伖 䵲◊▭炻Ὢ⑒烎 24

挦㼌㕘⃰ 䓇烉Ὢˤ 25

㛶㼵㟻⣏⼳ⷓ烉♇䵲␊㡅䇯㭝␊炻␊ᾳ⯙㛒⽭ὪἈ炻ỮὪ⎗傥ὪἈ⎴ḳ炻␩ỮὪ␊ᾳ⯙㛒㚱 26

䀓ᷳ ⇵炻ㆹ䲼䱡ⷞἈ䛯ᶨ䛯炻䫱Ἀ嫃妋ᶨᶳἈ▘ᾳⶍἄᶲ朊▭ⶍ⸷炻⤥Ⓖ⤥烎 27

挦㼌㕘⃰ 䓇烉⤥ˤ 28

㛶㼵㟻⣏⼳ⷓ烉椾⃰ ␊⹎Ἀ䛯⇘炻℞⮎Ὢ5 㦻ᶨᾳ㢂㝞ᶲ朊炻⬷㖴敋炻Ἀ⇵朊悥㚱ᾳㅱ娚. .

29

挦㼌㕘⃰ 䓇烉╬炻╬炻╬ˤ 30

㛶㼵㟻⣏⼳ⷓ烉Ἀ䛯⇘℞⮎ㆹ⑳月役䔓朊㬋ᷕ 炻℞⮎▘ᾳℍ朊⯙Ὢ⼴㦻㡗▭䓇⎋♇׀ˤ 31

挦㼌㕘⃰ 䓇烉Ὢˤ 32

㛶㼵㟻⣏⼳ⷓ烉␩䃞ᷳ ⼴␊ᾳ⯙Ὢ℞⮎㈧⺢⓮╢5 㦻㒢▭ᶨᾳ㓅抬☐炻␩㇨ẍἈ夳⇘℞⮎␊ 3

ᾳ⯙Ὢᶨᾳ㢂㝞⼙⇘▭ᶨᾳ⼙⁷♇▭炻⃰ 䛯- ㆹⒼ㑕㡅䇯ỷ炻⤪㝄Ἀ䛯䔓朊ᶲ朊ⶎ 34

ㇳ怲␊炻ㆹ夳⇘℞⮎␊ᾳ⯙ㅱ娚⶚䴻Ὢ㎃␿ᶨ┚㕘▭䳁䙖䞛ᶲ⍣׀◆炻Ὢ⑒烎 35

挦㼌㕘⃰ 䓇烉Ὢˤ 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十四天

3 本謄本由E piq 編製 㛶㼵㟻⣏⼳ⷓ烉䃞ᷳ ⼴ㆹ⑳夳⇘䳁䙖䞛ᶲ朊⤥Ụ㚱┚⫿␊炻℞⮎Ὢ⑒℞⮎␊┚䳁䙖䞛ᶲ朊ẚ 1 湸ỷᶨ⻝䳁╢⹎׀烎 2 挦㼌㕘⃰ 䓇烉Ὢ⏨炻Ὢ⏨炻Ὢ⏨ˤ 3 㛶㼵㟻⣏⼳ⷓ烉ㆹ▭䎮妋⯙Ὢ⚈䁢䳁䙖䞛℞⮎ἊὪᶨ䭙ᶨ䭙␩忳句♇┯ˤ 4 挦㼌㕘⃰ 䓇烉Ὢˤ 5 㛶㼵㟻⣏⼳ⷓ烉␩㇨ẍ䁢␿椾⃰ 䫔ᶨ㧋◊炻ᾅ嬟Ἂ⑳ᾳ- ⌛Ὢ┚䳁䙖䞛ᾳ堐朊Ⓖ⤥忳⇘♇剙 6 㗺␊炻℞⮎⯙㭷ᶨ⻝䳁▭堐朊悥㚱ᶨ⻝- 㭷ᶨᾳ䳁䙖䞛▭堐朊悥㚱ᶨ⻝⎗ẍ㭷⻝悥 7 㚱ᶨ⻝䳁昼ᶨ昼▭炻Ὢ⑒⏨烎 8 挦㼌㕘⃰ 䓇烉Ὢˤ 9 㛶㼵㟻⣏⼳ⷓ烉␩㇨ẍἈ⑳湸␿ᾳ䳁䙖䞛ᶲ⍣▭㗪῁␊炻℞⮎⯙天㏋崘␿␊⻝䳁▭ˤ 10

挦㼌㕘⃰ 䓇烉Ὢˤ 1

㛶㼵㟻⣏⼳ⷓ烉ㆹ䚠ᾉ⌛Ὢⶍ䦳Ἀ⯙ℯ⎗傥娙㚱ᾳ✫⛦䫺炻㭷㏋ᶨ⻝⯙㏎⍣ᾳ✫⛦㠞⹎⯙㌱ 12

׀┯烎 13

挦㼌㕘⃰ 䓇烉Ⓖ㚫ˤ 14

㛶㼵㟻⣏⼳ⷓ烉㇨ẍㆹ䚠ᾉ悥Ὢ㭷㖍悥Ὢ⎗傥⯙␩㧋㏋␿炻㙓㗪⌛Ὢ㈴␿句⛘ᶳ⃰ 炻䃞ᷳ ⼴ 15

⯙冐㓞ⶍ▭㗪῁⃰ 军㶭䎮┯炻Ὢ⑒烎 16

挦㼌㕘⃰ 䓇烉Ὢ⏨炻Ὢ⏨炻Ὢ⏨ˤ 17

㛶㼵㟻⣏⼳ⷓ烉␩㇨ẍ℞⮎ᶨ嶗 ▭㗪῁炻⎗傥⍣⇘㭷㖍㓞ⶍ▭㗪῁炻⯙⎗傥ᾳ㢂㝞ᶳ朊⯙ 18

㚫㚱ᶨ➮␊┚␩▭䳁炻⯙⇘㗪⎗傥㚱㔋ⶍ⍣㶭䎮炻Ὢ⑒⏨烎 19

挦㼌㕘⃰ 䓇烉Ὢ⏨炻Ὢ⏨炻Ὢ炻Ὢˤ 20

㛶㼵㟻⣏⼳ⷓ烉⤥炻␩ㆹ⑳侴⭞䛯ᶨ䛯▘ᾳ䇯㭝炻⌛Ὢ䲬卓Ḯ妋ᶳἈ▘ᾳⶍ⸷ˤ 21

炷㑕㓦䞕䇯炸 2

烪炷側㘗䲇暄倚炸烬 23

㛶㼵㟻⣏⼳ⷓ烉ㆹ⑳夳⇘␊ᾳ⯙ㅱ娚ὪἈ▭⎴ḳ䔞㖍悥Ὢ╢㢂㝞ᶲ朊攳ⶍ炻Ὢ⑒烎 24

挦㼌㕘⃰ 䓇烉ㅱ娚Ὢˤ 25

㛶㼵㟻⣏⼳ⷓ烉ㆹ⑳䲬卓䛯⇘ᾳ⼙炻⌛ὪἈ夳⇘Ἂᶨ嶗㒢⟲䳁䙖䞛炻䃞ᷳ ⼴⎗傥䓐┚㈡↨⌛ 26

Ὢ⡻ᶨ⡻▘┚䳁䙖䞛炻Ὢ⑒烎ㆹ婿ㆹ⑳悥⎗ẍ╢␊⹎ ˤ 27

炷䞕䇯㑕㓦⬴䔊炸 28

㛶㼵㟻⣏⼳ⷓ烉℞⮎䲼䱡䛯␊ᾳⶍ⸷炻⚈䁢ㆹᾳ䎮妋℞⮎⯙Ὢ⃰ ╢▘ᾳ⍇㛔▘ᾳ䞛⯶䇮ᶲ朊 29

⯙㏥ᶲㆾ侭㈡ᶲἈ⑳⎓ ˬ先㱁˭▭◊┯ˤ 30

挦㼌㕘⃰ 䓇烉Ὢˤ 31

㛶㼵㟻⣏⼳ⷓ烉先㱁℞⮎⌛ὪὪᶨ┚⌛Ὢ⎓ 㓡列␿▭劙㲍┯炻⯙ッ♇湸ỷ▘┚䳁䙖䞛▭炻 32

Ὢ⑒烎 3

挦㼌㕘⃰ 䓇烉Ὢ炻Ὢˤ 34

㛶㼵㟻⣏⼳ⷓ烉℞⮎ㆹ⤪㝄⯙␩䲼䱡ㆹ⑳䛯␿⸦䥺␊ᾳⶍ⸷␊炻℞⮎⯙➢㛔ᶲℯḄ䠶䞛炻⌛ 35

ὪℯḄ◊㚫嵴↢♇炻⎗Ⓖ⎗ẍ␩嫃⏨烎⌛Ὢ昌␿天㏋▘⻝䳁ᷳ ⢾ˤ 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十四天

4 本謄本由E piq 編製 挦㼌㕘⃰ 䓇烉Ὢ⏨炻⎗ẍ␩嫃ˤ 1 㛶㼵㟻⣏⼳ⷓ烉㇨ẍ℞⮎♜㟤ᶲ ␊ᾳ抒䳁䙖䞛␊ᾳⶍ⸷␊炻➢㛔ᶲἈ娙㚫㔜䇃┚䨿炻▘ᾳ 2 桐晒➢㛔ᶲὪ⤥Ỷ炻⤥Ỷ▭炻Ὢ⑒⏨烎 3 挦㼌㕘⃰ 䓇烉悥⤥Ỷ炻⤥Ỷˤ 4 㛶㼵㟻⣏⼳ⷓ烉Ⓖ炻⌛Ὢ⎗傥㚫㚱┚㰉䲇┯炻ỮὪ⯙Ⓖ㚫娙㔜䇃ᾳ䍣䐫⯙Ⓖ㚫▭ˤ 5 挦㼌㕘⃰ 䓇烉⮹┚炻⤥⮹ˤ 6 㛶㼵㟻⣏⼳ⷓ烉⤥⮹炻㇨ẍ℞⮎⎗Ⓖ⎗ẍ␩嫃炻⌛ὪἈ ␊ᾳ䛇Ὢ抒䔒㕘␊ᶨ⟲䳁䙖䞛ᶲ⍣ 7 ▭㗪῁␊炻℞⮎Ἀ娙天䓐䘤㲉先⍣怖ỷᾳ䨿炻℞⮎⮵㕤Ἀ♇嫃⯙℞⮎ℯ␩▭暨天 8 ▭烎 9 挦㼌㕘⃰ 䓇烉Ἂ⯙枸旚怳怊ˤ 10

㛶㼵㟻⣏⼳ⷓ烉Ὢ♱炻⌛Ὢ䲬䱡⯙⎗傥㲿▭㗪῁⯙㲿⮹┚炻Ⓖἧ␩㰉䲇▭┓炻Ὢ⑒烎 1

挦㼌㕘⃰ 䓇烉␩⏨Ὢˤ 12

㛶㼵㟻⣏⼳ⷓ烉ỮὪ⮵㕤Ἀ♇嫃炻℞⮎⤪㝄ⶍ⣓⤥▭炻⯙℞⮎Ⓖ㚫䛇Ὢ␩⭡㖻㔜⇘┚⛘㕡㰉 13

䲇怳怊׀◃炻Ὢ⑒烎 14

挦㼌㕘⃰ 䓇烉悥⤥㖻׀炻⚈䁢Ἂ㚱㗪῁嵴┚◊句♇␊炻ᶳ朊Ἂ㚫嵴怳怊ˤ 15

㛶㼵㟻⣏⼳ⷓ烉悥Ὢ▘┚先㱁┓炻Ὢ⑒⏨烎⌛Ὢ℞⮎⯙ⒼὪ娙┚䠶䞛㚫ㇻ䇃⟲䍣䐫⎾◃烎 16

挦㼌㕘⃰ 䓇烉悥㚱㨇㚫׀䠶䞛ˤ 17

㛶㼵㟻⣏⼳ⷓ烉䚠⮵⛘䳘┯炻 ㇻ搧▭⯙㨇㚫ᶨ⭂⣏⤥⣂┯炻Ὢ⑒烎 18

挦㼌㕘⃰ 䓇烉Ὢ⏨ˤ 19

㛶㼵㟻⣏⼳ⷓ烉⚈䁢ㆹ⑳䞍忻℞⮎⍣⇘⣏㤪ℑ溆暞ˣᶱ溆ᷳ ⇵␊炻ㆹ⑳䞍忻Ἀ悥Ὢ╢ᾳ㢂㝞 20

ᶲ朊ⶍἄ䵲▭炻╢1 㚰26 嘇炻Ὢ⑒烎 21

挦㼌㕘⃰ 䓇烉Ὢˤ 2

㛶㼵㟻⣏⼳ⷓ烉侴▘ᾳ㗪攻Ṏ悥Ὢ⣏㤪⯙ὪἈ䞍忻㚱䀓嬎▭ね㱩◆烎 23

挦㼌㕘⃰ 䓇烉Ὢ炻Ὢˤ 24

㛶㼵㟻⣏⼳ⷓ烉䔞℞㗪ἈṎ悥⎹嬎㕡Ṍẋ␿炻昌␿Ἀᷳ ⢾炻℞⮎ẚ㚱Ἀ⸦ᾳ℞Ṿ▭⎴ḳ悥╢ 25

ᾳ㢂㝞ᶲ朊 䵲◊▭ˤ 26

挦㼌㕘⃰ 䓇烉Ὢˤ 27

㛶㼵㟻⣏⼳ⷓ烉ㆹ侴⭞䓨⎎ᶨ㭝䇯㭝Ἀ䛯炻╢␊㭝䇯㭝ℍ朊␊炻昌␿䛯⇘䔓朊炻Ἀ㚫倥⇘㚱 28

┚倚▭炻⯙ὪἈ⑳┚⎴ḳᷳ 攻嫃◊ˤ晾䃞Ἀ㚫䘤奢␊▘㡅倚␊炻⎗傥⎴ᾳ䔓朊罉␿ 29

⮹⮹㗪攻▭炻ᶵ忶Ἀ昌␿䛯ᾳ䔓朊␊炻ㆹ゛Ἀ䔁シᶳ嫃▘┚◊炻␩ㆹ䓨Ἀ䛯⬴㡅䔓 30

朊ㆹ⃰ ℵ⓷Ἀ⓷柴ˤ 31

挦㼌㕘⃰ 䓇烉⤥ˤ 32

炷㑕㓦䞕䇯炸 3

烪炷側㘗▰暄倚炸 34

䓟倚ᶨ烉┪炻㚱怲ᾳ梇䄁䃓叿␿┚◊⏨烎 35

䓟倚Ḵ烉┪炻Ⓖ⤥␩⣏倚⏨. . 炷倥ᶵ㶭炸 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十四天

5 本謄本由E piq 編製 䓟倚ᶱ烉䃓叿┚◊⏨ˤ 1 䓟倚ᶨ烉⒱炻⤥⼑ㆹ. . 炷倥ᶵ㶭炸ℯ䄁┓ˤ 2 䓟倚Ḵ烉. . 炷倥ᶵ㶭炸 3 䓟倚ᶨ烉. . 炷倥ᶵ㶭炸梇␳◃ˤ 4 䓟倚⚃烉⎻烎 5 䓟倚ᶨ烉Ἀ梇䄁␳◃Ṳ㖍炻Ὢ⑒⏨烎 6 嫃侭ᶵ傥彐⇍烉. . 炷倥ᶵ㶭炸 7 䓟倚ᶱ烉. . 炷倥ᶵ㶭炸 8 嫃侭ᶵ傥彐⇍烉. . 炷倥ᶵ㶭炸 9 嫃侭ᶵ傥彐⇍烉. . 炷倥ᶵ㶭炸 10

嫃侭ᶵ傥彐⇍烉. . 炷倥ᶵ㶭炸 1

嫃侭ᶵ傥彐⇍烉. . 炷倥ᶵ㶭炸 12

䓟倚Ḵ烉Ⓖ⤥␩⣏倚⏨ˤ 13

嫃侭ᶵ傥彐⇍烉. . 炷倥ᶵ㶭炸 14

嫃侭ᶵ傥彐⇍烉. . 炷倥ᶵ㶭炸 15

嫃侭ᶵ傥彐⇍烉. . 炷倥ᶵ㶭炸 16

嫃侭ᶵ傥彐⇍烉怲ᾳỵ伖┓烎 17

嫃侭ᶵ傥彐⇍烉. . 炷倥ᶵ㶭炸 18

䓟倚Ḵ烉⎻烎怲⹎烎 19

䓟倚ᶨ烉ㆹ␊⹎⏨ˤ⒱炻⒱炻怲ᾳ梇⏨炻⒱炻偗⭂. . 炷倥ᶵ㶭炸梇׀◆ˤὪ⏨ˤ 20

嫃侭ᶵ傥彐⇍烉偗⭂. . 炷倥ᶵ㶭炸梇ˤ 21

嫃侭ᶵ傥彐⇍烉怲ᾳỵ伖⏨烎怲ᾳ- 怲ᾳ ▘ᾳỵ┓烎 2

䓟倚ᶨ烉. . 炷倥ᶵ㶭炸 23

䓟倚ᶱ烉. . 炷倥ᶵ㶭炸 24

嫃侭ᶵ傥彐⇍烉. . 炷倥ᶵ㶭炸ᶨ↢ᶾ⯙梇䄁׀◆ˤ 25

嫃侭ᶵ傥彐⇍烉ᶨ↢ᶾ梇䄁ˤ. . 炷倥ᶵ㶭炸 26

嫃侭ᶵ傥彐⇍烉⒎炻⌛ὪἈ⍰. . 炷倥ᶵ㶭炸ㆺ␿䄁ᷳ ⼴ˤ 27

嫃侭ᶵ傥彐⇍烉ㆺ␿┯炻. . 炷倥ᶵ㶭炸 28

嫃侭ᶵ傥彐⇍烉⒱ˤ 29

嫃侭ᶵ傥彐⇍烉. . 炷倥ᶵ㶭炸 30

嫃侭ᶵ傥彐⇍烉倆Ⓖ倆⇘烎倆Ⓖ倆⇘⏨烎┪炻㏝㡅㯜┱♇炻⾓┚炻⾓┚炻⾓┚ˤ 31

嫃侭ᶵ傥彐⇍烉Ⓖ⤥␩⣏倚⏨ˤ 32

嫃侭ᶵ傥彐⇍烉叿䀓⎾◃ˤ 3

嫃侭ᶵ傥彐⇍烉躗Ἀ侩㭵炻. . 炷倥ᶵ㶭炸 34

嫃侭ᶵ傥彐⇍烉. . 炷倥ᶵ㶭炸 35

嫃侭ᶵ傥彐⇍烉. . 炷倥ᶵ㶭炸 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十四天

6 本謄本由E piq 編製 嫃侭ᶵ傥彐⇍烉湣轞䄑⏨炻. . 炷倥ᶵ㶭炸 1 嫃侭ᶵ傥彐⇍烉. . 炷倥ᶵ㶭炸 2 嫃侭ᶵ傥彐⇍烉. . 炷倥ᶵ㶭炸 3 嫃侭ᶵ傥彐⇍烉躗Ἀ侩㭵炻. . 炷倥ᶵ㶭炸 4 嫃侭ᶵ傥彐⇍烉Ἀ▘ᾳỵ┶ˤ 5 嫃侭ᶵ傥彐⇍烉. . 炷倥ᶵ㶭炸 6 嫃侭ᶵ傥彐⇍烉ㆹ悥ℯ梇忶䄁炻. . 炷倥ᶵ㶭炸 7 嫃侭ᶵ傥彐⇍烉. . 炷倥ᶵ㶭炸 8 嫃侭ᶵ傥彐⇍烉躗Ἀ侩㭵炻ㆹ悥ℯấ炻. . 炷倥ᶵ㶭炸 9 嫃侭ᶵ傥彐⇍烉ㆺ⬴ᷳ ⼴. . 炷倥ᶵ㶭炸 10

嫃侭ᶵ傥彐⇍烉. . 炷倥ᶵ㶭炸䀓䆕⏨炻. . 炷倥ᶵ㶭炸䀓䆕⏨ˤ 1

嫃侭ᶵ傥彐⇍烉. . 炷倥ᶵ㶭炸 12

嫃侭ᶵ傥彐⇍烉. . 炷倥ᶵ㶭炸 13

嫃侭ᶵ傥彐⇍烉. . 炷倥ᶵ㶭炸 14

嫃侭ᶵ傥彐⇍烉. . 炷倥ᶵ㶭炸怲ᾳ梇⏨炻. . 炷倥ᶵ㶭炸怲ᾳ梇⏨炻. . 炷倥ᶵ㶭炸┪炻 15

叿䵲┶ˤ. . 炷倥ᶵ㶭炸◑炻⤥轞⣏䀓⏨䛇Ὢ炻┪炻. . 炷倥ᶵ㶭炸┪炻┪炻⾓┚⾓ 16

┚┪ˤṮ埿炻Ṯ埿◆炻┪炻⤥⌙晒⏨┪炻┪炻⾓┚⏨ˤ 17

嫃侭ᶵ傥彐⇍烉⾓┚⏨ˤ 18

嫃侭ᶵ傥彐⇍烉⾓┚⏨ˤ 19

嫃侭ᶵ傥彐⇍烉⾓┚⏨ 20

䓟倚ᶱ烉⾓┚⏨ˤ 21

嫃侭ᶵ傥彐⇍烉叿䀓◆炻◑炻. . 炷倥ᶵ㶭炸 2

嫃侭ᶵ傥彐⇍烉. . 炷倥ᶵ㶭炸⾓┚⏨炻⾓┚⏨ˤ 23

⤛倚烉叿䀓┯ˤ 24

嫃侭ᶵ傥彐⇍烉. . 炷倥ᶵ㶭炸 25

嫃侭ᶵ傥彐⇍烉. . 炷倥ᶵ㶭炸 26

嫃侭ᶵ傥彐⇍烉. . 炷倥ᶵ㶭炸 27

嫃侭ᶵ傥彐⇍烉. . 炷倥ᶵ㶭炸 28

嫃侭ᶵ傥彐⇍烉. . 炷倥ᶵ㶭炸 29

嫃侭ᶵ傥彐⇍烉┪炻⟙嬎⏨ˤ 30

䓟倚ᶨ烉⾓┚⏨┪. . 炷倥ᶵ㶭炸⒱炻Ṯ埿◆ˤ 31

嫃侭ᶵ傥彐⇍烉⾓┚⏨. . 炷倥ᶵ㶭炸 32

嫃侭ᶵ傥彐⇍烉⟙嬎. . 炷倥ᶵ㶭炸⟙␿ˤ 3

䓟倚ᶨ烉天Ἂ╢↢朊. . 炷倥ᶵ㶭炸 34

嫃侭ᶵ傥彐⇍烉┪炻┪炻┪炻┪ˤ. . 炷倥ᶵ㶭炸 35

嫃侭ᶵ傥彐⇍烉. . 炷倥ᶵ㶭炸 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十四天

7 本謄本由E piq 編製 嫃侭ᶵ傥彐⇍烉Ṯ埿◆␊㫉炻. . 炷倥ᶵ㶭炸 1 嫃侭ᶵ傥彐⇍烉. . 炷倥ᶵ㶭炸 2 嫃侭ᶵ傥彐⇍烉⑶⎼ˤ 3 ⤛倚烉. . 炷倥ᶵ㶭炸 4 嫃侭ᶵ傥彐⇍烉⅂⭞∟. . 炷倥ᶵ㶭炸 5 嫃侭ᶵ傥彐⇍烉⑶⎼ˤ 6 嫃侭ᶵ傥彐⇍烉⾓┚⏨ˤ 7 炷䞕䇯㑕㓦⬴䔊炸 8 㛶㼵㟻⣏⼳ⷓ烉ㆹ婿╢␊⹎炻ㆹ⑳⎗ẍ ᶨ ˤ➢㛔ᶲ℞⮎ㆹ䞍⎓Ἀ⯙␩倥ㆾ侭⎗傥㭼庫 9 暋ˤỮὪ℞⮎➢㛔ᶲㆹ⑳ᷳ ⇵悥㚱倥忶␊㡅䇯⤥⣂㫉炻␩➢㛔ᶲ⎗傥㚱┚Ἀ悥㚱倥 10

⇘▭┓炻⯙Ὢ㚱Ṣ娙叿䀓┯炻㚱Ṣ⓷怲ᾳ梇䄁┯炻␩℞ᷕ 㚱ᶨ悐↮⯙Ὢㆹ⑳悥倥⇘ 1

ˬ⾓┚㓆㡅㯜┱♇˭␩㧋▭炻ㆹ䛯䔒Ἀ▭⎋ὃ炻℞⮎Ἀ悥- ㅱ娚⯙ὪἈ䔞⇅悥Ὢ倥 12

⇘㚱ṢỤ᷶ 嫃娙䀓䆕炻Ἀ⃰ 军- ⌛Ὢ叿␿䀓Ἀ⯙⃰ 军⮇奢⍇Ἦ⤥Ụ㚱⌙晒炻Ὢ⑒ 13

⏨烎 14

挦㼌㕘⃰ 䓇烉Ὢ炻Ὢ炻Ὢˤ 15

㛶㼵㟻⣏⼳ⷓ烉䔞Ἀ倥⇘娙㚱Ṣ嫃䀓䆕▭㗪῁炻Ṏ悥Ὢ⑒ㅱ娚悥攳⥳倆⇘㚱┚䆞␛⏨烎 16

挦㼌㕘⃰ 䓇烉䔞ㆹ夳⇘▘㗪⯙Ὢ⶚䴻Ὢ㚱䀓♱ˤ 17

㛶㼵㟻⣏⼳ⷓ烉㚱䀓ˤἈ夳⇘▭㗪῁ᾳ䀓Ὢ╢ᶲ朊䅺⎾炻⭂Ὢ╢ᶳ朊䅺烎 18

挦㼌㕘⃰ 䓇烉╢ᶳ朊ˤ 19

㛶㼵㟻⣏⼳ⷓ烉Ἀ䔞㗪Ἀ⯙╢4 㦻烎 20

挦㼌㕘⃰ 䓇烉Ὢˤ 21

㛶㼵㟻⣏⼳ⷓ烉㇨ẍἈ㛃⇘▭℞⮎⯙Ὢㆹ⑳侴⭞夳⇘␊ᾳỵ▭ᶳ朊▭ỵ伖炻Ὢ⑒⏨烎 2

挦㼌㕘⃰ 䓇烉Ὢ炻Ὢˤ 23

㛶㼵㟻⣏⼳ⷓ烉Ἀ㚱嫃忶娙Ἀ悥ㇻ䬿⍣㏝㡅㯜┱炻Ἀ娙⚈䁢℞⮎⍇㛔⯙㚱㡅㯜┱╢⹎Ὢᶨ嶗 24

╢- 㒢ỷ╢⹎⯙䓨Ἀ⑳ⶍἄ▘昋㗪䓐▭炻Ὢ⑒⏨烎 25

挦㼌㕘⃰ 䓇烉Ὢˤ 26

㛶㼵㟻⣏⼳ⷓ烉␊㡅㯜┱炻椾⃰ 䫔ᶨ炻ㆹ゛⓷ᾳ㯜㸸╢怲⹎♇׀烎╢⣑⎘⎾炻⭂Ὢ. .

27

挦㼌㕘⃰ 䓇烉ㅱ娚╢⣑⎘♇▭ˤ 28

㛶㼵㟻⣏⼳ⷓ烉⣑⎘♇▭ˤ 29

挦㼌㕘⃰ 䓇烉㲝句♇▭炻Ὢˤ 30

㛶㼵㟻⣏⼳ⷓ烉Ἀ冒⶙⯙Ⓖ䞍⮎晃ᶲἊὪ溆㧋楩ᶲ⍣Ἀ⯙Ⓖ䞍▭炻Ὢ⑒⏨烎 31

挦㼌㕘⃰ 䓇烉Ⓖ䞍ˤ 32

㛶㼵㟻⣏⼳ⷓ烉ὪˤἈ㚱嫃忶娙℞⮎Ὢ⑒攳- Ἀ悥▿娎䓐㯜㓹␿ᶨ昋炻⯙Ὢ⣏㤪Ḵᶱ⋩䥺⯙ 3

ℯ㯜炻Ὢ⑒⏨烎 34

挦㼌㕘⃰ 䓇烉Ὢ炻Ὢ炻Ὢ炻Ὢˤ 35

㛶㼵㟻⣏⼳ⷓ烉⇘㚨⼴炻ㆹ⑳䞍忻Ἀ⯙╢ᾳ㢂㝞⹎炻⯙ℯ䚜㍍ℍ䔒ᾳ䓇⎋◆炻䚜㍍╢4 㦻⯙ 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十四天

8 本謄本由E piq 編製 ⎴⎎⢾ᶨ┚⎴ḳ⯙␿句⛘朊徫䓇炻Ὢ⑒烎 1 挦㼌㕘⃰ 䓇烉Ὢ炻Ὢ炻Ὢˤ 2 㛶㼵㟻⣏⼳ⷓ烉ㆹ゛⓷椾⃰ ⍣⇘㚨⼴Ὢ⑒Ἀ⎴Ἀ旬役ⶍἄ▭⎴ḳ炻Ἀ㇨䞍悥⬱ℐ暊攳⇘ᾳ㢂 3 㝞烎 4 挦㼌㕘⃰ 䓇烉⇅㗪悥Ⓖ䞍׀ˤ 5 㛶㼵㟻⣏⼳ⷓ烉Ὢˤ 6 挦㼌㕘⃰ 䓇烉ㆹ䔞㗪悥Ⓖ䞍׀ˤ 7 㛶㼵㟻⣏⼳ⷓ烉Ὢˤ␩ỮὪ⼴⯦. .

8 挦㼌㕘⃰ 䓇烉⼴♇䞍◆ˤ 9 㛶㼵㟻⣏⼳ⷓ烉⌛ὪἊ⑳悥⬱ℐ▭烎 10

挦㼌㕘⃰ 䓇烉Ὢ炻Ὢˤ 1

㛶㼵㟻⣏⼳ⷓ烉ㆸ≇⎗ẍ暊攳⇘烎 12

挦㼌㕘⃰ 䓇烉Ὢˤ 13

㛶㼵㟻⣏⼳ⷓ烉ㆹ䞍忻Ἀ悥㚱⎴嬎㕡Ṍẋ忶┯炻⯙娙Ἀ冒⶙悥Ὢ䄁㮹♇▭炻ᶵ忶Ἀ⯙⽆Ἦℯ 14

╢㢂㝞ᶲ朊梇䄁烎 15

挦㼌㕘⃰ 䓇烉Ⓖ㚫▭ˤ 16

㛶㼵㟻⣏⼳ⷓ烉ḳ⮎ᶲㆹ⑳悥倥⇘⌛Ὢ䔞攳⥳㚱䀓嬎▭㗪῁炻ⶍṢᷳ 攻悥Ụ᷶ 㚱⓷┯炻ˬὪ 17

⑒怲ᾳ梇䄁⏨烎䃓叿␿┚◊烎˭ㆹ⑳悥㚱倥忶▭ˤ╢Ἀ䞕䞕▘ℑᶱᾳ㚰炻╢⬷䤷剹 18

ⶍἄ㛇攻炻Ἀ冒⶙ℯ◆炻␩㚱ℯ夳忶㚱℞ṾⶍṢ╢ᾳ㢂㝞ᶲ朊梇䄁⎾烎 19

挦㼌㕘⃰ 䓇烉⚈䁢ᶨṢᶨᾳỵ▭ˤ 20

㛶㼵㟻⣏⼳ⷓ烉Ὢˤ 21

挦㼌㕘⃰ 䓇烉㇨ẍㆹ⑳夳Ⓖ⇘▭ˤ 2

㛶㼵㟻⣏⼳ⷓ烉Ὢˤ 23

挦㼌㕘⃰ 䓇烉⚈䁢┚䵚␊⯙ℐ悐Ὢ⚵ỷ׀◃炻ᶨᾳṢᶨᾳỵ 句׀◃ˤ 24

㛶㼵㟻⣏⼳ⷓ烉Ὢ炻㚦䴻㚱嬎㕡▘怲悥⓷忶Ἀ▭炻⤪㝄ℯ╢㢂㝞ᶲ朊梇䄁炻Ἀ㚫⍣怲⹎梇 25

䄁烎␩Ἀ⯙娙℞⮎ẍἈ㇨䞍炻⯙ℯ娙㊯⭂ᶨ┚⏠䄁⋨䓨Ἀ⑳梇䄁▭炻Ὢ⑒⏨烎 26

挦㼌㕘⃰ 䓇烉ℯˤ 27

㛶㼵㟻⣏⼳ⷓ烉Ⓖ炻⌛Ὢ℞⮎⎗傥Ἀ⑳悥Ὢ- ⤪㝄㟡㒂Ἀ▭嫃㱽Ἀ- ㆹ䚠ᾉ㚫ὪἈ悥句䔒ᾳ 28

㢂㝞炻㏝⇘㚱⛘㕡ℯṢ▭⑒梇䄁♱炻Ὢ⑒烎 29

挦㼌㕘⃰ 䓇烉⚈䁢ㆹ⯙Ⓖⷞ䄁ᶲ▭ˤ 30

㛶㼵㟻⣏⼳ⷓ烉Ὢˤ 31

挦㼌㕘⃰ 䓇烉⚈䁢Ἂ␊ᾳ娙␿ⒼⅮⷞ䄁ᶲ⍣梇䄁▭烎 32

㛶㼵㟻⣏⼳ⷓ烉Ὢ炻Ὢˤ␩㇨ẍἈ悥Ὢẹ〗ㆾ侭梇梗▭㗪攻㓞ⶍἈ⃰ 军梇䄁烎 3

挦㼌㕘⃰ 䓇烉Ὢ⏨炻Ὢ⏨炻Ὢ⏨炻Ὢ⏨炻Ὢ⏨ˤ 34

㛶㼵㟻⣏⼳ⷓ烉␩⤥Ụㆹ∃ㇵ㇨嫃炻⤪㝄╢⋰ẹ炻⌛Ὢ梇梗▭㗪῁炻␩ㆹ婿Ἀ⯙Ὢ梇梗▘⹎ 35

ℯṢ▭炻␩⑒梇㓗䄁♱ˤ 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十四天

9 本謄本由E piq 編製 挦㼌㕘⃰ 䓇烉ἊⒼὪ炻ᶨ梇⬴梗 ◊׀◆ˤ 1 㛶㼵㟻⣏⼳ⷓ烉ᶨ梇⬴梗 ◊ˤ 2 挦㼌㕘⃰ 䓇烉䛇Ὢˤ 3 㛶㼵㟻⣏⼳ⷓ烉⌛Ὢℐ㖍Ἀ▭嫃㱽炻ẍἈ冒⶙♇嫃炻䓙攳ⶍ⇘㓞ⶍ⃰ 梇䫔Ḵ㓗䄁׀炻Ὢ⑒ 4 ⏨烎 5 挦㼌㕘⃰ 䓇烉Ὢ⏨炻Ὢ⏨炻ㆹ⑳䛇Ὢ׀ˤ 6 㛶㼵㟻⣏⼳ⷓ烉⤥炻ᷣ ⷕ炻ㆹℯ℞Ṿ⓷柴ˤ 7 映┇⹟㱽⭀烉㚱ℯ℞Ṿ㴱ḳ㕡゛㍸⓷烎⤪㝄ℯㆹ゛⓷ᶨᾳ⓷柴ˤ 8 挦㼌㕘⃰ 䓇烉Ὢˤ 9 映┇⹟㱽⭀烉柕⃰ ㆹ⑳䛯⇘⯙㚱Ṣ娙ˬ⓲炻梇䄁⏨˭炻▘昋㗪Ὢ⑒⶚䴻㚱䀓׀◆烎 10

挦㼌㕘⃰ 䓇烉ỮὪㆹ⍰ⒼὪ⤥奢┶炻ⒼὪ⤥倥⇘Ἂ⑳┶炻⚈䁢ㆹ╢␊朊 ◊炻㛒⽭倥⇘┶ˤ 1

映┇⹟㱽⭀烉Ⓖ炻␩ỮὪ⍰- 嶇ỷ⍰倥⇘┚ṢὪ两临 ◊׀┶炻Ὢ⑒⏨烎⌛Ὢ ┚- 两临搧 12

⏨搧⏨炻␩㇨ẍ℞⮎▘昋㗪Ἀ⑳Ὢ䛯Ⓖ⇘ᾳ䀓▭烎 13

挦㼌㕘⃰ 䓇烉▘昋㗪ㆹ悥䛯Ⓖ⇘ᾳ䀓炻▘昋㗪㛒䞍忻Ὢ׀炻⎗傥㛒䞍忻Ὢ׀ˤ 14

映┇⹟㱽⭀烉␩⏨⇘⇘冐⯦㚱Ṣ娙崘◆炻䀓䆕⏨炻␩▘昋㗪Ἀ⃰ 夳⇘ᾳ䀓▭烎 15

挦㼌㕘⃰ 䓇烉㛒崘׀▘㗪炻ㆹ夳- ⌛Ὢ夳⇘╢␊朊. . 炷倥ᶵ㶭炸␊炻夳⇘▘朊␊炻ᶳ朊␊ 16

⶚䴻- 悥⶚䴻㚱䀓◆ˤ 17

映┇⹟㱽⭀烉Ⓖ炻⤥炻Ⓖ娚㗺Ἀ炻挦䓇炻Ἀ⎗ẍṲ㖍ἄὃ⬴䔊炻Ⓖ娚Ἀˤ 18

挦㼌㕘⃰ 䓇烉⒎炻⼿炻⼿炻⼿炻Ⓖˤ 19

20

10 㗪21 ↮⛘䚌ⶍṢ嫱Ṣ挦㼌㕘⃰ 䓇ἄὃ⬴䔊 21

2

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉ᷣ ⷕ炻ᶳᶨỵ嫱ṢὪ⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇ˤ⼸⃰ 䓇炻Ἀ⤥ˤ 23

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ὢˤ 24

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉湣䄑Ἀ⎴℞Ṿ嫱Ṣ悥ᶨ㧋嬨↢Ἀ朊⇵▭倚㖶ˤ 25

26

10 㗪2 2 ↮⬷䤷剹㤕ᷣ 䩳㟰㱽⛀䫔⋩Ḵ⯮䭉䎮⥼⒉㚫炷ả㛇䓙2024 ⸜9 㚰6 㖍军2026 27

⸜1 㚰6 㖍炸ᷣ ⷕ嫱Ṣ⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇攳⥳ἄὃ 28

29

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉⤥炻Ὢˤ㛔Ṣ⼸㺧㝹倚㖶炻㛔Ṣ㇨ἄ䘬嫱ὃ炻䚉㛔Ṣ㇨䞍ˣ㇨〱⍲㇨ᾉ炻⛯Ⱄ 30

䛇⮎ˤ 31

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉湣䄑Ἀ⛸⎾ˤ 32

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ὢˤ 3

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉⼸⃰ 䓇炻⣏⭞悥䞍忻ἈὪ⬷䤷剹㤕ᷣ 䩳㟰㱽⛀䫔⋩Ḵ⯮䫔Ḵả䭉䎮⥼⒉ 34

㚫ᷣ ⷕ炻Ἀ▭ả㛇䓙2024 ⸜9 㚰6 嘇䚜军⇘Ṳ⸜1 㚰6 嘇炻䓙⎰⬱䭉䎮㚱旸℔ 35

⎠ㆸ䁢㍍ả䭉䎮Ṣ䁢㬊▭炻Ὢ⑒烎 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十四天

10

本謄本由E piq 編製 ⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ὢ炻ℯ拗ˤ 1 㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉╢Ἀ▭ᶲᶨả䭉⥼㚫␊炻Ὢ㤕ᷣ 䩳㟰㱽⛀䫔⋩Ḵⷕ䫔ᶨả炻䔞㗪⯙Ὢᶨ 2 ỵ惏⚳㪲⃰ 䓇 ᷣ ⷕ▭烎 3 ⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉ℯ拗ˤ 4 㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉性⃵㶟㵮炻ㆹ⯙䯉╖┚⎓Ἀ⑳▘ᶨả 㕘䭉⥼㚫炻惏⃰ 䓇▘ᾳ䭉⥼㚫ㆹ 5 ⑳⎓Ἂ 冲䭉⥼㚫炻Ἀ㖶䘥◃烎 6 ⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉㶭㤂炻㖶䘥ˤ 7 㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉⎴℞Ṿ⯭㮹⎗傥㚱┚Ⓖ⎴炻䫔ᶨ炻⚈䁢Ἀ╢⣏䀓▭㗪῁炻ἈὪ㱽⛀ᷣ 8 ⷕ炻ㆹ⑳㇨ẍἈᶲảᷳ ⇵悥℞⮎⯙⣏䵕ᾖ▭ḳね悥嗽䎮␿朆ⷠᷳ ⣂▭ⶍἄ炻㇨ẍ䞍 9 忻斄㕤⣏䵕ᾖ㚱斄▭嫱㒂␊炻ㅱ娚Ὢ㭼⣏⭞⣂⤥⣂▭ˤ 10

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ὢˤ 1

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉侴➢㕤␊ᾳ䎮䓙炻⎗傥ㆹ⮵Ἀ䘤⓷▭⓷柴㚫㭼℞ṾṢ⣂炻ⶴ㛃Ἀ㖶䘥ˤ 12

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉㖶䘥ˤ 13

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉䫔Ḵ㧋◊炻ㆹ悥ⶴ㛃Ἀ㖶䘥炻╢⥼⒉㚫ㆹ⑳倥⍾㚱斄嫱㒂▭㗪῁炻ㆹ⑳ 14

倥⇘⤥⣂㊯㍏炻ỮὪᾳ⓷柴Ὢ⤥⣂悥Ὢ忻値⟿婔炻ℯ⮎岒▭嫱㒂ˤ㇨ẍㆹⶴ㛃䁢␿ 15

⋼≑ㆹ⑳▭ⶍἄ炻⤪㝄Ἀ㚱㚱䓐▭嫱㒂炻Ἀ⎗ẍ⃀慷妋慳䓨ㆹ⑳倥炻␊ᾳἈ㖶䘥 16

◃烎 17

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉㖶䘥炻Ⓖ娚ˤ 18

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉䫔Ḵẞḳ炻Ṏ悥⮵ἈᾳṢ♇嫃⤥慵天▭炻⣏䵕ᾖ▭ね㱩暋⃵㚱Ⓖ⎴▭シ 19

夳╢┚⯭㮹ᷳ 攻炻ㆹ⑳䞍忻⮵ἈṎ悥㚱Ⓖ⮹▭㊯㍏炻␊ᾳṎ悥Ὢᶨᾳ㨇㚫䫱Ἀ⍣妋 20

慳Ἀ▭䩳⟜炻ⶴ㛃Ἀ悥⤥⤥㈲㎉␊ᾳ㨇㚫嫃䔒䔞㗪▭ね㱩↢♇炻Ἀ㖶䘥◃烎 21

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉㖶䘥ˤ 2

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉椾⃰ ㆹ゛⓷ᶨ⓷Ἀ▭⯙Ὢ炻Ἀ㛔幓Ὢ ┚⑑◊借㤕׀烎 23

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉㛔幓ㆹ╢- Ὢ炻㛔幓ㆹ╢MTR ▘⹎ ▭炻␩⏨ ᶨᾳ暣⫸▭䵕ᾖ炻Ὢ◆ˤ 24

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉䁢␿⋼≑ㆹ⑳▭ⶍἄ炻℞⮎Ἀ悥㍸Ṍ␿ᶨ䲣↿▭㔯ẞ▭ˤ椾⃰ 炻╢Ṳ⸜ 25

▭2 㚰2 㖍炻Ἀ䓨␿ᶨ⮩Ἀ冒⶙▭暣悝炻⚆央▭暣悝⥼⒉㚫▭炻ㆹ゛⓷ᶨ⓷Ἀ▭⯙ 26

Ὢ炻␊⮩暣悝▭ℏ⭡Ὢẋ堐Ἀ冒⶙▭䩳⟜炻⭂Ὢẋ堐Ἀ▭㕘䭉⥼㚫⍣⮓烎 27

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉⤪㝄䫔ᶨ㫉⠓▘ᾳ悥Ὢ⣏悐↮悥Ὢ䵄⎰␿ㆹ⑳䭉⥼㚫▭ᶨ┚屯妲⍣⮓↢♇▭ˤ 28

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉⌛Ὢ␩嫃炻Ἀ⓷忶䭉⥼㚫℞Ṿ▭⥼⒉▭烎 29

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉㚱ˤ 30

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉ỮὪἈ↢ᷳ ⇵炻㚱ℯ䓨Ἂ⑳䛯忶烎 31

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉㚱ˤ 32

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉㚱▭ˤ䫔ḴấὪ╢Ṳ⸜3 㚰16 嘇炻Ἀ␊ᶨ⮩⚆央Ὢ⯙㕘䭉⥼㚫䘤䓨⥼ 3

⒉㚫⼳ⷓ▭ᶨ⮩ᾉ↥♇▭炻▘ᾳ䚠ᾉ悥ὪἈ悥Ὢẋ堐ㆸᾳ㕘▭䭉䎮⥼⒉㚫炻Ὢ⑒烎 34

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉ℯ拗ˤ 35

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉⎎⢾炻Ṳ㖍4 㚰15 嘇炻Ἀ悥ℍ␿ᶨấ嫱Ṣὃ娆炻␊ấὪἈ㚨㕘▘ᶨ 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十四天

1

本謄本由E piq 編製 ấˤ 1 ⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉ℯ拗ˤ 2 㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉␊ấ⯙㚱⼳ⷓ⸓Ἀ⍣ᶨ滲⍣㸾⁁炻Ὢ⑒烎 3 ⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ⓖˤ 4 㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉ㆹ䚠ᾉἈṎ⎗ẍ䡢娵塷朊▭ℏ⭡Ὢ㸾䡢▭炻Ὢ⑒烎 5 ⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉㬋䡢ˤ 6 㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉⤥炻Ἀ▭㕘▭嫱Ṣὃ娆侴⭞⯙╢屯㕁⣦WS12 ▘⹎炻ㆹ⑳ㆾ侭╢坊⃱ⷽ 7 栗䣢䔒↢♇ˤ⤪㝄ㆹ⑳㟡㒂Ἀ䫔12 军15 㭝炻ㆹ⑳⯙夳⇘Ἀ▭嫃㱽⯙Ὢ╢2024 8 ⸜6 㚰⇅炻Ἀ⑳⯙Ὢ㓞⇘䫔ᶨ炻冲䭉⥼㚫德忶⼳ⷓ⎹⯭㮹䘤↢♇娙天普屯▭ᾉẞ烎 9 ⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ὢˤ 10

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉␩Ἀ䔞㗪娵䁢⯙溆妋␩⾓天⣦拊炻⤥ᾱὫ炻Ὢ⑒烎 1

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ὢ炻䔞℞㗪ㆹ⑳㓞⇘⼳ⷓᾉ炻␩Ἂ▘ᾳᾱὫ≈❳╢▘ᾳ⎓ ↮㓌▘ᾳ㛇㔠▘ᾳ 12

㗪攻▘ᾳ⣒忶䞕ˤ 13

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉㇨ẍἈᷳ ⼴╢6 㚰14 嘇炻Ἀ╢冲䭉⥼㚫ᾳ㚫嬘▘昋㗪炻Ἀ▿娎天㯪↿ 14

ⷕ㚫嬘炻⍵㗈⮵普屯␊┚⬱㌺ᶨ┚▭シ夳▭烎 15

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉ℯ拗ˤ 16

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉␊ᾳ⎗Ⓖ⎗ẍ␩嫃烎ἈὪ⤪㝄ᷣ ≽⎴❳㭼庫柣⭮┚⍣⍫冯炻␊ᾳὪᶨᾳ 17

⇅㛇烎⌛Ὢ╢␊ᾳ㗪῁攳⥳▭烎 18

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ὢ炻ℯ拗ˤ 19

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉䔞㗪㚱⤥⣂⯭㮹⤥ỤἈ␩炻悥゛↿ⷕ㚱斄▭㚫嬘▭炻Ὢ⑒℞Ṿ⯭㮹悥ℍ 20

Ⓖ⇘⍣↿ⷕ烎 21

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉ℍⒼ⇘炻Ὢˤ 2

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉ㆹ⑳䞍忻⯙Ὢ⚈䁢␊ẞḳẞ炻㇨ẍ╢2024 ⸜7 㚰7 嘇炻䃉䵓暣夾˪㜙 23

⻝大㛃˫悥㚱⟙␊ẞḳ▭炻⎴ᶨ㖍炻ἈὪ⑒╢- ⎴℞Ṿ⯭㮹╢旬役▭㴠ᾉ㚫⭀䩳⮷ 24

⬠ᾳ℔⚺忚埴␿ᶨ┚▭妶婾炻▘昋Ἀ⑳⯙㚱⯭㮹⺢嬘㓞普䘦↮ᷳ Ḽ▭䯥⎵炻天㯪⎔ 25

攳䈡⇍㤕ᷣ ⣏㚫炻Ἀ⑳℞⮎Ὢ゛⺞攟▘ᾳ普屯▭▘ᾳ㗪旸炻Ὢ⑒␩烎 26

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉ℯ拗ˤ 27

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉嶇ỷ⯙㚱ᶨᾳ⯭㮹ㆸ䩳␿ᶨᾳ斄㲐⣏䵕ᾖ▭⯭㮹䚋⮇䳬炻Ἀ╢18 军19 28

㭝㚱嫃␊┚▭ℏ⭡烎 29

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ὢ炻ℯ拗ˤ 30

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉ㆹᷳ ⼴嫃㚱┚▭ḳね炻⚈䁢╢Ἀ嫱Ṣ昛徘㚠㚱炻⚈䁢⣏⭞⛐⟜ⒼὪ㭷ᶨ 31

ỵ悥䛯忶炻ㆹ婿ㆹ㚫⤥⾓␩⍣䯉徘Ἀ▘ᾳ婒㱽炻⤪㝄Ἀ奢⼿㚱◊墄⃭ ▭炻Ἀ⎗ẍ娙 32

䓨ㆹ⑳䞍炻⤥Ⓖ⤥烎Ἀ▭嫱Ṣ昛徘㚠ᷳ ⼴嫃⇘炻╢2024 ⸜6 㚰18 嘇炻冲䭉⥼㚫 3

⯙䘤↢␿忂⏲炻⮯普屯▭㛇旸䓙2025 ⸜▭2 㚰15 嘇⺞攟⇘5 㚰31 嘇▭炻␊ᾳ 34

Ὢ╢㝸䦳⹎ᶲ炻⯙ὪἊ⑳悥倥⇘⣏⭞▭姜㯪炻⯙ἄ↢␿␊ᾳ冱≽炻⎗Ⓖ⎗ẍ␩嫃烎 35

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉⎗ẍ␩嫃ˤ 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十四天

12

本謄本由E piq 編製 㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉ỮὪ溆妋䚋⮇䳬ᷳ ⼴悥㚫两临㒢姕埿䪁㓞普䘦↮ᷳ Ḽ▭䯥⎵烎⤪㝄Ἂ⑳ 1 ⶚䴻⺞攟␿ˤ 2 ⼸㺧㝹⃰

䓇烉⚈䁢㛔幓ㆹ⑳▘ᾳ䚖㧁Ὢⶴ㛃⍣⇘2025

26 ⸜1 㚰╍炻⃰ 军⍣⬴ㆸㆸᾳ普 3 屯炻⎗ẍ- ⌛Ὢㆹ゛Ὢ㓌↮攟┚炻䓨⯭㮹㚱ᶨᾳ⌛Ὢ⎗ẍ- ⌛Ὢ⭡㖻┚⍣㍍⍿⎴❳ 4 ⍣⃚ 拊▭ᶨᾳ- ▘ᾳ㕡㱽炻Ὢˤ 5 㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉␩╢␊ᾳ昶㭝炻2024 ⸜6 㚰炻䔞㗪Ἀ⑳㚱ℯ婿忶ㆾ侭䯴⁁゛巊崘冲ᾳ 6 䭉⥼㚫烎 7 ⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉╢勱㒔▘ᾳ䯥- ㆹ⑳⎓䯥5% 䯥⎵▘㗪炻Ὢ␩天勱㒔ᶨᾳ- ▘ᾳ⎓嬘䦳⎾◃炻 8 ▘昋㗪⯙攳⥳㚫婿娙㚫Ⓖ㚫伟⃵❳⇵㱽⛀ˤ 9 㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉Ἀ⑳昌␿▘ᾳ普屯▘ᾳ㛇旸ᷳ ⢾炻Ἀ⑳䔞㗪⮵冲㱽⛀▭ㆾ侭冲䭉⥼㚫▭ 10

ᶵ㺧炻℞⮎㚱┚Ḅ◊烎⤥䯉╖␩嫃ᶨ嫃ˤ 1

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉⒎炻␩℞⮎忶⼨ẍ♇炻␩ㆹ⑳悥㓞⇘Ⓖ⮹⯭㮹炻⎴❳ㆹ冒⶙奒幓悥㚱⍣忶↿ⷕ 12

▘┚⎗傥⣏㚫炻␩奢⼿Ἂ⑳▘ᾳ䃉夾ㆹ⑳▭⓷柴炻ㆾ侭Ὢ⯙ỷᶲ㫉Ἀ娙6 㚰14 嘇 13

␩㧋悥Ⓖ䓨ㆹ⑳↿ⷕ炻␩ㆹ⑳⮵Ἂ⑳▘ᾳ 㱽⤥㚱㆟䔹ˤ 14

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉嶇ỷㆹ゛Ἀ- ⎴Ἀ㍊妶ᶨᶳ⯙Ὢ⥼ả泣㭭ἄ䁢姣Ⅎ㩊槿Ṣ⒉␊ẞḳ▭ˤ 15

ㆹ⑳䞍忻╢2019 ⸜▭1 㚰25 嘇炻⌛Ὢ庫㖑▭㗪῁⶚䴻㚱ᶨᾳAGM 炻Ὢ⑒烎 16

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ⓖˤ 17

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉╢▘㭝- ⌛Ὢ嫃䔒⸦⸜ᷳ ⇵炻19 ⸜▭㗪῁炻⎗傥䔞㗪Ἀ悥㛒㚱⣒斄㲐 18

⣏䵕ᾖ▭ḳね炻Ὢ⑒烎 19

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉ㆹ㛔Ṣ㛒㚱ˤ 20

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉ㆹ⑳䛯䔒㚫嬘䲨抬炻2019 ⸜▭1 㚰25 嘇炻▘ᾳὪ㤕ᷣ ▭␐⸜⣏㚫炻 21

╢E1 炻Bundle E1 /1512 枩炻䔞㗪Ἀ冒⶙㚱ℯ⍫≈␊ᾳ␐⸜⣏㚫烎 2

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉ℯˤ 23

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉䔞㗪Ἀ悥㛒斄㲐ˤỮὪ䔞㗪- Ἀ⸓Ⓖ⸓⇘ㆹ⑳炻⯙␊ᶨ㫉▭㚫嬘炻℞⮎ 24

⯭㮹ᷳ 攻炻Ἀ姀Ⓖ姀⼿Ὢ⑒⶚䴻㚱ᶨ┚▭䇕嬘烎⭂Ὢ▘昋℞⮎⸦␴䜎炻㛒攳⥳烎 25

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉⮵㕤␊ᶨ㫉ㆹ⯙冒⶙ℯ⍫冯炻㇨ẍㆹⒼ㶭㤂ˤὪˤ 26

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉㖶䘥ˤ␩Ἀ⸓Ⓖ⸓⇘ㆹ⑳炻嬔⤪ㆹ⑳䛯䔒䫔6 枭炻1515 炻ㆾ侭1514 27

▭㚨ᶲ檀攳⥳䛯炻㚨ᶳỶ炻⌛Ὢ侴⭞䫔6 枭炻␊⹎ˤㆹ⑳夳⇘㱽⛀䦀㚠┚⟙⏲炻⤪ 28

㝄Ἀ䛯␊ᶨ㭝⎴❳ᶳᶨ枩▭枪▘⹎炻Ὢ炻␊⹎⯙嫃⇘℞⮎悥㚦䴻冱彎忶ᶨ┚Ṍ㳩 29

㚫炻Ṏ悥╢⣏➪忂⏲ˣ⎬㇞▭ᾉ䭙⎴❳Ἀ⑳⬷䤷剹▭柣忻塷朊炻䘤㓦␿㚱斄怠㑯㩊 30

㷔Ṣ⒉▘ᾳ妪㖶㩊㷔▘ᾳᾉ〗炻䔞㗪Ἀἄ䁢⯭㮹炻Ἀ㚱ℯ䔁シ⇘␊┚ᾉ〗烎 31

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉ㆹ冒⶙⯙ℯ奒冒䔁シˤ 32

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉㇨ẍἈ悥⸓Ⓖ⇘ㆹ⑳⯙▘ᾳ昶㭝炻⤪㝄㚱┚㊯㍏娙ℯ㍸ὃ⇘㚱斄▭ᾉ〗 3

䓨┚⯭㮹炻▘昋冒⶙Ἀ⯙嫃Ⓖ↢ˣ嫃Ⓖ⇘炻Ὢ⑒烎 34

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉嫃Ⓖ⇘ˤ 35

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉ㆹ⑳夳⇘▘ᾳ- 䛯ᶳἈ⸓Ⓖ⸓⇘ㆹ⑳炻ㆹ⑳䛯ᾳ㈽䤐䳸㝄炻⣏悐↮▭㤕 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十四天

13

本謄本由E piq 編製 ᷣ 悥Ὢ㓗㊩泣㭭▭炻侴⼿䤐䫔Ḵ檀▭炻Ἀ夳⇘攻怈㜙⺢䭱炻342 炻Ὢⶖ⤥怈▭炻Ữ 1 Ὢㆹ⑳䞍忻▘ᾳ₡拊炻℞⮎泣㭭Ὢ㭼怈㜙檀▭ˤἈ䔞㗪- ⎗Ⓖ⎗ẍ␩嫃烎晾䃞␊ᾳ 2 Ἀ⼴Ἦ䞍炻Ἀ䔞㗪℞⮎ὪⒼ䞍忻䚠斄▭妶婾▭炻Ὢ⑒烎 3 ⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ⓖ䞍忻ˤ 4 㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉⤥炻␩ㆹ⑳嶛ᶨ嶛⍣⍲⼴▭㗪攻炻䛯ᶳἈ⸓Ⓖ⸓⇘ㆹ⑳ˤㆹ゛嶇ỷ⎴Ἀ 5 嫃炻⯙⍣⇘2021 ⸜炻2021 ⸜12 㚰1 嘇炻ㆹ⑳䞍忻㚱ᶨᾳEGM 炻▘ᾳ⯙泣㭭 6 塓⥼ả䁢䵕ᾖⶍ䦳栏⓷␊ᶨẞḳ▭炻䔞㗪Ἀ㚱ℯ- 忶␿ⶖⒼ⣂ℑ⸜炻Ἀ㚱ℯ- ╢␊ 7 ᾳ昶㭝炻Ἀ㚱ℯ䔁シ⣏䵕ᾖ▭ḳね烎 8 ⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉202. .

9 㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉1 ˤ 10

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉. .1 ⸜⏨炻Ὢ⑒⤥Ụ炷English Spoken 炸烎ㆹ冒⶙⯙ⒼὪ⣒䔁シ炻ㆹ㶐 1

Ὢ⼿㚱ᶨᾳ⌘尉⯙娙炻⤥Ụ㚱ᶨ┚⎓ ␊ᾳὪ⑒⎓ ⊀⮇烎Ὢ◆ˤ 12

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉ㆾ侭␩嫃炻ㆹㆾ侭⤥⾓␩㧋㧋⍣嫃↢䔞㗪▭ね㱩炻⤪㝄Ἀℯ⌘尉ㆾ侭⸓ 13

Ⓖ⇘ㆹ⑳▭炻Ἀ娙ㆹ⑳䞍炻ㆹ⑳⯙嫃⍲⼴▭ḳˤ 14

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉⤥ˤ 15

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉⚈䁢䄏㗪⸷嫃炻ᶳᶨẞ慵天▭ḳね⯙Ὢ2020 ⸜1 㚰炻Ἀ⑳⯙⬷䤷剹⯙ 16

栏⓷忚埴␊ᾳ℔攳▭㊃㧁炻㓞⇘ᶱ⋩Ḽấ㧁㚠炻泣㭭▘昋ᾳ㧁₡Ὢ$308,0 0 ▭ˤ 17

⮵㕤䔞㗪␊ᾳ㈽㧁␊┚₡㟤炻Ἀ冒⶙╢▘ᾳ㗪攻㚱ℯ䔁シ忶烎 18

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉ℯˤ 19

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉Ἀ⍲⼴ ␿ᷣ ⷕ▭㗪῁炻Ἀ䛯䔒䲨抬Ἀ䞍┯炻▘昋烎 20

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ὢ炻天⼴㛇⃰ 䞍ˤ 21

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉␩⼴㛇㚱ℯ倥䔒娙䔞㗪㚱Ṣ奢⼿ᾳ₡㟤ῷỶ炻Ἂ⑳␩⸛溆 炻␊┚妶婾 2

㚱ℯ╢⣏䀓ᷳ ⇵㚱ℯ妶婾忶烎⭂Ὢ℞⮎悥㲐シ≃普ᷕ ␿╢䫔Ḵ┚◊⹎烎 23

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉⶚䴻ℯ妶婾忶␊ᾳ炻Ὢˤ 24

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉㖶䘥ˤㆹ⑳⤥⾓␩⯙Ὢ嫃ᶨ嫃ᷳ ⼴䘤䓇⑑◊ḳ炻ㆹ䚠ᾉἈ⯙␊ᾳ㗪㛇炻 25

Ἀ⸓Ⓖ⇘ㆹ⑳ˤ栏⓷℔⎠▭㊃㧁╢2020 ⸜1 㚰忚埴炻⇘2021 ⸜10 㚰21 嘇炻 26

泣㭭⃰ 军塓⥼ả▭ˤ嫃Ⓖ嫃⇘䓨ㆹ⑳倥炻昌␿䕓ねᷳ ⢾炻䞍Ⓖ䞍忻㚱⑑◊⍇⚈㉾␿ 27

␩侸烎嫃Ⓖ⇘⯙ㆹ⑳嫃ᷳ ⼴▭◊ˤ 28

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉嫃Ⓖ⇘炻Ὢ炻Ⓖ㶭㤂炻Ⓖ⤥シ⿅ˤ 29

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉Ⓖ䵲天ˤ⤥⾓␩⍣炻ㆹ⑳䞍忻2021 ⸜12 㚰1 嘇⯙㚱ᾳEGM 炻▘ᾳ 30

E GM ⯙⥼ả␿栏⓷炻䔞㗪Ἀ悥ℯ⍫≈烎 31

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉ℯˤ 32

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉攳㚫㚱ảỽ⓷柴炻ㆹ䚠ᾉἈ悥Ⓖ㚫䞍忻炻⤪㝄Ὢ␩烎 3

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ⓖ㶭㤂ˤ 34

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉⤥炻␩ㆹ゛⓷ᶳἈ炻⍣⇘24 ⸜1 㚰炻⥼ả⬷㤕炻▘昋Ἀ攳⥳斄㲐炻Ὢ 35

⑒烎 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十四天

14

本謄本由E piq 編製 ⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉悥㛒炻ㆹ㛔Ṣ㛒ˤ 1 㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉悥㛒烎 2 ⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ὢˤ 3 㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉㇨ẍ⯙攳䈡⇍㤕ᷣ ⣏㚫▭ḳね炻▘昋㈽䤐▭ね㱩炻▘昋Ἀℯ䫔ᶨ幓▭屯 4 㕁▭炻Ἀ悥Ὢᷳ ⼴倥䔒▭┓炻Ὢ⑒烎 5 ⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉ℯ拗ˤ 6 㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉ㆹ⑳夳⇘炻Ἀ㚱╢嫱Ṣ昛徘㚠㍸忶炻⯙▘㫉㤕ᷣ ⣏㚫Ὢ㚱ᶨ┚䇕嬘▭炻 7 ἈὪ⼴Ἦ⃰ 䞍忻▭炻Ὢ⑒烎 8 ⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ὢˤ 9 㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉Ἀ⼴Ἦ䞍忻▭⯙Ὢ炻▘㫉㤕ᷣ ⣏㚫℞⮎⯙㌰㪲䤐▭㚱㓰⿏⓷柴炻䔞㗪悥 10

Ὢ㚱Ṣ斄㲐▭烎 1

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉␊ᾳㆹ倥䔒┚⥼⒉▘昋㗪嫃䔒䔞℞㗪▭ね㱩炻⚈䁢ㆹ冒⶙ⒼὪ䫔ᶨ幓╢䎦⟜ 12

▭ˤ 13

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉㇨ẍἈ嫱Ṣὃ娆塷朊嫃䔞㗪▭ね㱩炻℞⮎悥Ὢ倥Ṣ⑳嫃▭烎 14

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉ℯ拗ˤ 15

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉␩军㕤㓞普㌰㪲䤐䔞㗪▭ね㱩炻攳㚫㚱ℯ⻝層㚱斄▭屯㕁↢♇炻▘┚Ἀ 16

悥ℯ䫔ᶨ幓▭㴰〗⎗ẍ嫃⇘䓨ㆹ⑳倥烎 17

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉ℯ拗ˤ 18

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉␩▘㫉攳㚫炻Ἀ㚱ℯṌ㌰㪲䤐䓨Ṣ烎 19

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉悥ℯˤ 20

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉Ἀ▭幓怲▭惘⯭㚱ℯ炻䞍Ⓖ䞍忻烎䔞㗪ˤ 21

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉ℯ⓷ˤ 2

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉ℯ䔁シ烎 23

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ⓖˤ 24

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉⤥炻⇘Ἀ- ㆹ⑳⇘ᷳ ⼴炻ㆹ⑳䞍忻㚱ᶨ┚▭㈽姜斄㕤▘㫉攳㚫▭ね㱩 25

▭炻Ἀ ᷣ ⷕ▭㗪῁炻Ἀ⃰ 䛯䔒䚠斄▭䲨抬炻Ὢ⑒烎 26

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉℞⮎⯙ⒼὪ娙. .

27

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉⭂Ὢᷣ ⷕ▘昋⶚䴻- 悥ℯ䎮␊ẞḳ烎 28

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉⶚䴻ℯℵ䈡⇍⍣徥䨞䔒ᷳ ⇵炻⚈䁢. .

29

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉㎃⎍娙嫃炻⌛Ὢ䔞㗪悥Ὢ⎹⇵䚳炻ℯ婿䔒⼴㛇▭- ⌛Ὢ㖑㛇▭ḳ炻Ὢ 30

⑒烎 31

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ὢ炻ℯ拗ˤ 32

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉⤥炻⤪㝄Ὢ␩▭娙炻ᶵ⤪ㆹ⑳⍣嫃ᶨ嫃Ἀ䔞㗪▭䎮妋Ὢ溆㧋㧋炻Ἀ倥䔒 3

Ṣ⑳▭嫃㱽ˤ⚈䁢Ἀ╢嫱Ṣὃ娆▭䫔93 军96 㭝炻⤪㝄ㆹ⑳⍣209 枩炻Ἀ娙Ἀ 34

ᶲả␿ᷳ ⼴炻ἈḮ妋␿㤕ᷣ ⣏㚫㌰㪲䤐▭嗽䎮⎴❳㟡㒂34 䪈忚埴▭ᶨ┚䦳⸷炻㟡 35

㒂Ἀ▭䎮妋ㆾ侭Ἀ⑳ᶲ␿ảᷳ ⼴炻ㆹ゛⓷ᶳἈ⑳▭ 㱽Ὢ溆㧋㧋烎 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十四天

15

本謄本由E piq 編製 ⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ὢ斄㕤㌰㪲䤐␊ᾳ烎 1 㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉㌰㪲䤐炻ㆹᶨ㬍ᶨ㬍♇ˤ 2 ⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ⓖ炻Ⓖˤ 3 㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉Ὢ⑒㭷ᶨ⹏悥㚫㓦ᶨᾳ㓞普䭙炻䫱┚⯭㮹⮯㌰㪲䤐帱句⍣烎 4 ⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉ℯ拗ˤ 5 㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉␩Ὢ怲ᾳ㈴句⍣Ὢℯ䲨抬▭烎⌛Ὢ⎒Ὢ㓞▭┓烎 6 ⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉ℯ拗炻⋧⎵▭ˤ 7 㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉ㆹ⑳倥忶ᶨ┚▭嫱ὃ娙㱽⛀⍰⤥炻䭉䎮嗽⍰⤥炻ℯṢ⍣䛯ᶳᾳ㌰㪲䤐▘ 8 ᾳ䯥会▭ね㱩炻⌛ὪⒼ暨天╢ảỽ㱽⛀ㆾ侭䭉䎮嗽Ṣ⒉▭朊⇵䯥▭炻▘┚㌰㪲㚠炻 9 ␊ᾳὪ⑒Ἀ▭娵䞍烎 10

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉ℯ拗炻㬋䡢炻㬋䡢ˤ 1

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉␩␊ᾳ㌰㪲䤐▭嗽䎮ㇳ㱽炻㟡㒂Ἀ▭䎮妋炻╢Ἀ⑳㍍␿ㇳᷳ ⼴炻⎴Ἀ⑳ 12

㍍ㇳᷳ ⇵炻Ὢ⑒悥Ὢ㱧䓐䔒⎴㧋▭ 㱽烎 13

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ὢ炻ᶨ㧋ˤ 14

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉⸦⣂㖍ᷳ ⇵攳⥳㓞普- ㆹ⑳䞍忻⌛Ὢ㚱夷䞑⯙娙Ⓖ⮹㕤⚃⋩ℓ⮷㗪炻⮎ 15

晃ᶲἈ⑳Ὢ溆 烎 16

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉悥Ὢ⚈䁢ㆹ⑳㚱␊ᾳᶫ㖍攳␊ᾳ䭉䎮- ℐ⥼㚫炻⌛Ὢ⥼⒉攳▭⥼⒉㚫炻␩ᷳ ⼴ 17

⭋ⶫ娙天㚱㤕ᷣ ⣏㚫ᷳ ⼴炻㚨⮹㚱⋩⚃㖍▭忂䞍▭炻㇨ẍ⯙䓙⭋ⶫ⸦㗪攳␊ᾳ㤕ᷣ 18

⣏㚫▘ᾳ忂⏲攳⥳崟炻⯙㚫- 䚜㍍⯙攳⥳㓞普␊ᾳ㌰㪲䤐炻␩㚨⮹悥㚱ᶫ- ⋩⚃㷃 19

⚃⋩ℓ␩⣂▭⌛Ὢ. . 炷倥ᶵ㶭炸▭ˤ 20

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉⌛Ὢ㚨⮹悥⋩Ḵ㖍▭烎 21

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ὢ炻Ὢˤ 2

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉㒂Ἀ㇨䞍炻⚈䁢Ἀ娙Ἀ⑳㍍␿ㇳᷳ ⇵炻⎴❳ᷳ ⼴▘ᾳ 㱽悥Ὢ⣏⎴⮷ 23

䔘炻㚱ℯṢ㚫㟠⮵㌰㪲䤐▘ᾳ䛇䡢⿏炻╢Ἀ⑳- ╢Ἀ▭䎮妋烎 24

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉䛇䡢⿏⯙ℯ▭炻⌛Ὢ䯥⎵㕡朊⯙ℯ▭炻⎒Ὢ溆䤐▘昋㗪㚫溆- 䛯ᶳ㚫Ⓖ㚫⮓拗 25

▘┚⯙㚫㚱▭ˤ 26

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉ỮὪ㓞␿⻝䤐ᷳ ⼴炻㚱ℯṢ㚫⮵ᶳ炻␊ᾳ╖ỵὪ怲ᾳỷ▭炻␊ᾳṢ㚱ℯ 27

㪲⍣㌰㪲炻㚫 ┚Ḅ◊炻Ἀ嫃Ⓖ嫃⇘烎 28

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉␊ᾳ⯙Ὢ╢␊ᾳ䈑䭉℔⎠㚫⋼≑⸓ㇳ⍣⮵䔒炻⚈䁢Ἂ⑳ẚ天 䔒⻝⚆㡅䓨䔒▘ 29

ᾳ㤕ᷣ ▭炻Ὢˤ 30

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉㒂㕤Ἀ▭䎮妋⯙Ὢ炻䭉䎮℔⎠Ὢ㚱Ⰽ埴␊ᾳ⬱㌺▭炻㎃⎍娙嫃炻Ἂ⑳㓞 31

⇘⻝㌰㪲䤐炻Ὢ嬔⤪5 㦻6 嘇⭌▭炻Ἂ㚫㓦䔒⻝⚆㡅句⍣䓨▘ᾳ⯭㮹▭ᾳᾉ䭙▘ 32

⹎炻Ὢ⑒烎 3

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉ẍㆹ䎮妋炻Ὢˤ 34

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉Ἀ嫃忶⯙Ὢ娙炻╢Ἀ㚱ấ⍫冯▭⣏㚫䔞㖍炻Ἀ⑳㚫㟠⮎↢ⷕ侭幓↮▭烎 35

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ⓖˤ 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十四天

16

本謄本由E piq 編製 㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉⮎⊁ᶲ檀Ὢ溆 ׀烎Ἀ⎗Ⓖ⎗ẍ嫃䓨⥼⒉㚫倥烎 1 ⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ὢ炻℞⮎ㆹ⑳攳⣏㚫▘昋㗪炻ㆹ⑳⎗傥㖑ᶨ军ℑᾳ揀⯙㚫炷English 2 Spoken 炸ᾳ炷English Spoken 炸╢ᾳℍ⟜▘⹎ˤ␩㭷ᶨᾳ㤕ᷣ ㆾ侭Ὢ▘┚⎓ 3 塓⥼ảẋ堐▘┚Ṣ悥㚫忶♇䓐幓ấ嫱⍣䘣姀炻␩㚫check 䔒ᾳ䲨抬炻嬔⤪ἊὪ㤕 4 ᷣ A101 炻␩ᾳ幓ấ嫱⎴❳㤕ᷣ ⎵炻␩Ἂ⑒㚫⮵䔒Ὢ⑒炻␩⃰ 军㚫㳦䔒Ἂ⑳▘ᾳ╖ 5 ỵ▭䚠ㅱ▭㈽䤐▭▘⻝䳁䓨Ἂ⑳炻Ὢ炻␩㌰㪲䤐▘┚悥ᶨ㧋炻⌛Ὢ嬔⤪Ἂ⥼ả␿怲 6 ᶨᾳ╖ỵˣ⥼ả␿怲ᾳ炻␩悥㚫䛯䔒▘ᾳṢ▘ᾳ⎵Ὢ⑒幓ấ嫱▘ᾳ⎵ˤ 7 㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉㟡㒂ᷳ ⇵䓨忶⎋ὃ▭惕剟䙰⤛⢓㇨嫃炻Ἂ娙㭷㫉攳㤕ᷣ ⣏㚫悥㚫㚱ᶨấ 8 ⎓ ㌰㪲ᶨ奥堐炻▘ấ㔯ẞ㚫層↢♇╢㚫⟜炻䫱⯭㮹⎗ẍ䛯⇘▭ˤ 9 ⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ⓖˤ 10

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉╢Ἀ ᷣ ⷕᷣ ㊩␊┚㚫嬘▭㗪῁炻␊ᾳ 㱽Ὢ⑒悥㚱忚埴烎 1

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉㚱ˤ 12

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉侴ㅱ娚␊ᾳ堐ᶲ檀㚫⮓㖶㇨㚱⥼妿㕡▭ẋ堐▭炻Ὢ⑒烎 13

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉ἊὪ⮓ᾳ╖ỵ炻怲ᾳ╖ỵ塓㌰㪲炻⯙ⒼὪ⮓⑑◊Ṣ⎵ˤ 14

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉Ἀ䛯ᶳG1 /1070 枩ˤ␊ᾳ⯙Ὢ嫱㒂塷朊栗䣢炻ㅱ娚⯙Ὢ␊ᶨᾳ堐炻Ἀ 15

▭姀ㅞὪ⑒悥Ὢ␩烎 16

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉ℯ拗ˤ 17

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉侴Ἀ▭䎮妋⯙Ὢ塓㌰㪲Ṣ▭屯㕁⯙ᶨ嶗悥Ὢℯ▭炻Ὢ⑒烎 18

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉ℯˤ 19

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉㖶䘥ˤㆹ⑳␊⹎夳⇘炻↢ⷕ▭Ṣ⢓⎗ẍ䛯⇘冒⶙ᾳ╖ỵ㚱ℯ㌰㪲忶℞Ṿ 20

Ṣ⍣㈽䤐ˤ㚱┚埿⛲Ṏ悥╢倥嫱㚫ᶲ檀㍸忶炻㚱┚Ṣ▭㊯㍏⯙Ὢ娙炻㚱┚埿⛲㈽姜 21

Ἂ⑳塓㌰㪲炻Ἂ⑳Ⓖ䞍忻㚱┚␩▭㌰㪲␿䓨Ṣ⑳ˤㆹ⑳夳⇘㔯ẞ⣦塷朊℞⮎悥㚱┚ 2

䚠斄▭㈽姜炻⎴ᶨᾳ㔯ẞ⣦679 枩炻ㆹ⑳䓨ᾳἳ⫸Ἀ┓炻⎗傥Ἀ悥Ὢ⍲⼴- 23

G1 /679 ˤἈ夳⇘␊ᶨ⮩Ὢᶨ⮩2024 ⸜3 㚰17 嘇▭㈽姜▭暣悝♇▭炻␩㚱斄▭ 24

⯭㮹⯙Ụ᷶ ⯙⮯␊┚ḳね⯙╢␊ᾳ暣悝⹎⮓␿䓨ᶵ⎴▭悐攨▭ˤἈ夳Ⓖ夳⇘␊⹎䫔 25

ᶱ㭝╍ˬ㚱㤕ᷣ 堐䣢˭炻夳⇘ˬ⣏˭- Ἀ夳Ⓖ夳⇘烎ˬ⣏㚫攳⥳㗪⭋ⶫ㚱䲬Ḵ䘦ḅ 26

⋩㇞↢ⷕ炻ょ䲬⋲⮷㗪⼴炻䫔ᶨᾳ嬘䦳▭㗪῁炻䨩䃞↢䎦␿⣏慷▭怠䤐炻晾䃞Ὢ⃩ 27

姙㌰㪲䤐炻Ữ㚱㥄ᶲ㚱⎵▭埿⛲⌣⏎娵㚱ἄ↢㌰㪲˭炻Ἀ⮵㕤␊ᶨᾳ嫃㱽炻ㆹ䚠ᾉ 28

ἈⒼὪṲ㖍䫔ᶨ㫉倥▭炻Ὢ⑒烎 29

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉ℯ拗ˤ 30

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉⮵㕤␊ᶨᾳ嫃㱽炻Ἀ㚱ℯảỽ▭屯㕁⎗ẍ娙⇘䓨⥼⒉㚫倥炻Ἀ⑳㚱ℯ䞼 31

䨞忶Ὢ⑒Ⱄ⮎炻ㆾ侭㚱ℯṢ⎹Ἀ㈽姜炻Ἀ ↢忶嶇忚烎 32

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉ㆹᶲảᷳ ⼴炻␩⯙ㆹ⯙㛒倥忶ㆹ- ⌛Ὢㆹ⑳冱埴▭⣏㚫㚱䚠斄▭⓷柴炻␩␊┚ 3

⤪㝄Ὢᷳ ⇵▘┚炻⌛Ὢ⤥⣂㗪悥㚫倥⇘▭炻ỮὪ溆㧋㟠⮎炻␩℞⮎悥Ὢ暋ẍ㟠⮎ 34

▭炻⚈䁢⥳䳪ㆸᾳ㑵ἄ悥ⒼὪ╢- ⌛Ὢ⯭㮹Ὢℯ⼿⍣䛯ỷἊ㑵ἄ炻␩⤥暋㟠⮎炻 35

Ὢˤ 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十四天

17

本謄本由E piq 編製 㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉⌛Ὢ㎃⎍娙嫃炻㚱倥忶炻侴Ἀ⑳ ␿ᷳ ⼴炻℞⮎悥ℯ倥忶␊┚ね㱩↢ 1 䎦炻㇨ẍṎ悥ℯ⍣徥䨞䔒ᷳ ⇵▭ḳ炻Ἀ⑳⎗Ⓖ⎗ẍ␩嫃烎 2 ⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ὢ炻ℯ拗ˤ 3 㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉⎎⢾㚱ᶨᾳ嫃㱽炻⯙Ὢ娙㚱⯭㮹㊯㍏䔞㗪㚱Ṣ⚃⚵⍣忲婒⯭㮹䓨㌰㪲 4 䤐炻䈡⇍Ὢᶨ┚℔℔⧮⧮ˤ䫔ᶨ炻␊ẞḳ炻␊ᾳ㊯㍏Ἀ㚱ℯ倥忶烎 5 ⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉ᶨ䚜悥㚱倥忶ˤ 6 㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉ᶨ䚜悥㚱倥忶ˤἈ㚱ℯảỽ嫱㒂⎗ẍ㍸ὃ⇘䓨- 㚱ℯ嫱㒂㍸ὃ⇘䓨ㆹ 7 ⑳烎 8 ⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉ㆹ㛔Ṣ⚈䁢ⒼὪ䔞ḳṢ炻␩ㆹℯ冒⶙⮎岒▭嫱㒂╢⹎炻Ὢ⌛Ὢ㚱倥忶埿⛲㚱䚠 9 斄▭㈽姜炻␩嬔⤪Ἂ⎗傥Ὢ゛- ⌛Ὢ娙倥䔒♇悥Ὢ娙⎴┚℔℔⧮⧮嫃䓨㌰㪲䤐Ἂ␩ 10

▘┚炻Ὢˤ 1

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉␩Ἀ ␿ᷣ ⷕᷳ ⼴炻ᶨ⭂㚱Ṣ⎴Ἀ嫃䔒␊┚◊׀炻ᶵ忶Ἀ ⥼⒉▭㗪 12

῁炻悥㚫㚱Ṣ⎴Ἀ㍸׀炻␩Ἀ嫃Ⓖ嫃⇘䓨ㆹ⑳倥炻℞⮎Ἀ倥䔒♇▭㊯㍏Ὢ怲┚Ṣ⍣ 13

忲婒Ṣ烎㚱ℯᶨ┚⌛Ὢ㭼庫⮎⛐▭屯㕁⎗ẍ䓨ㆹ⑳烎 14

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉ㆹ倥彼♇悥⎗ẍ嫃炻Ὢ⑒烎 15

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉Ἀ⎗ẍ嫃炻ỮὪ⤪㝄⌛ὪἈ奢⼿悥Ὢℯ⮎岒▭嫱㒂炻Ἀ⎗ẍ㰢⭂娙Ⓖ娙 16

䓨ㆹ⑳䞍炻⌛Ὢ㚱ℯ䓐▭娙Ἀ奢⼿ˤ 17

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉⤪㝄⎒Ὢ昛徘䔒ㆹ倥彼♇▭炻␩⚈䁢ㆹℯ嫱㒂炻⎒傥⣈昛徘ˤ⯙Ὢ娙㚫㚱ᶨ┚ 18

⎗傥Ὢ斄㕤㚱┚. .

19

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉ㆾ侭ㆹ⸓ᶨ⸓Ἀᶵ⤪炻⤥Ⓖ⤥烎 20

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ⓖˤ 21

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉㚱ᶨᾳ㊯㍏⯙Ὢ娙攳㚫▘昋炻␊⹎悥䛯⇘㚱Ṣ㚫娙䨩䃞↢䎦⣏慷▭怠䤐 2

▭炻惕⮷⥸ἄὃ▭㗪῁嫃忶炻⎗傥␊ᾳὪᶨᾳ婌㚫炻⚈䁢Ὢ䔞㗪㚱ᾳ暣儎䲣䴙溆 23

䤐炻㇨ẍ℞⮎⎗傥⯙Ὢ⇘㝸ᶨᾳ昶㭝Ἂ⑳普❳␿ᶨ➮炻⯙䓐▘ᾳ䲣䴙♇㔠炻㇨ẍ┚ 24

Ṣ⯙奢⼿䨩䃞ᷳ 攻溆妋⣂␿␩⣂䤐炻⮵㕤Ἂ␊ᶨᾳ嫃㱽炻Ἀ⎗Ⓖ⎗ẍ䡢娵⭂ὪἈⒼ 25

䞍忻␊烎 26

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉⤪㝄䓙ㆹᶲả⍣䭉䎮▭⣏㚫炻ㆹ夳⇘▭ 㱽⯙Ὢ娙⚈䁢䎮婾ᶲㆹ⑳㳦↢♇▘ᾳ 27

䤐㔠㚱❳㤕㪲ấ㔠▭炻␩╢ㆹ▭娵䞍炻⯙Ὢ㚨䳪Ἂ㚫⮵㭼䔒Ἂℍ⟜Ṣ㔠℔ⶫ▘昋㗪 28

▘ᾳ㳦↢⸦⣂⻝炻␩℞⮎⤥暋嫃娙Ὢ㚫㚱ᶨᾳ䨩䃞⣂␿↢♇炻⤪㝄ⒼὪ⯙㚫Ⓖ⮵ᶨ 29

攳柕㳦↢♇␩⣂⻝▘ᾳ㤕㪲ấ㔠ˤ 30

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉侴ᶨ嶗㔠Ⓖ㚫ᶨ嶗⟙炻ὪⒼὪἈ⑳攳㚫- ⌛Ὢ溆䤐▭㗪῁烎 31

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉ㆹℯ姀拗Ἂ冐攳⥳ᷳ ⇵炻Ἂ悥㚫嫃㚱⸦⣂Ṣ⇘␿⟜炻␩⣈㺧嵛⇘▘ᾳ34 䪈ᾳ 32

㱽ἳ天㯪⃰ 攳⇘㚫▭炻㇨ẍἊ⑳ㅱ娚㚫䞍㚱䚠斄▭㔠慷ˤ 3

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉⌛Ὢ攳㚫ᷳ ⇵Ἀ㚫䞍忻㚱⸦⣂- 㚫⭋Ự㚱⸦⣂Ṣ⮎晃奒幓⇘␿炻侴㚱⸦ 34

⣂ṢὪ㚱⸦⣂⻝㌰㪲䤐烎 35

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉␩Ἂ⍰ℯ嫃娙⸦⣂⻝㌰㪲䤐炻Ἂ䷥㊔⊭❳炻⚈䁢㤕㪲ấ㔠▭ἊὪˤ 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十四天

18

本謄本由E piq 編製 㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉㖶䘥ˤ⤥炻ㆹ゛⓷Ἀ▭炻柕⃰ ㆹㇻ㕟␿Ἀˤ 1 ⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ὢˤ 2 㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉㚱┚▭㊯㍏⯙Ὢ娙㚱┚℔℔⧮⧮䓨Ṣ- ⌛Ὢ塓㌰㪲炻ㆹ゛⓷Ἀ倥彼♇▭ 3 ␊┚㊯㍏炻䔞䃞Ἀ㚱⍣㟠⮎冒⶙炻Ὢ⑒烎 4 ⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉ℯ⍣㟠⮎忶ˤ 5 㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉ℯ⍣忶㟠⮎忶炻␩Ἀ悥⎗ẍ嫃䓨⥼⒉㚫䞍Ὢ┚⑑◊Ṣ⍣㓆㌰㪲䤐烎㟡㒂 6 Ἀ倥彼♇ˤ 7 ⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉㟡㒂ㆹ倥彼♇▘┚ᾳ㟰炻␩悥⎗傥㴱⍲ᶨ┚⎗傥Ὢ⋨嬘⒉ㆾ侭ᶨ┚⎗傥Ὢ㱽⛀ 8 ㆸ⒉␩⍣忲婒ˤ 9 㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉ㆹ婿Ἀ悥天嫃⼿ℐ朊┚䓨ㆹ⑳倥炻Ἀ䔞㗪䫔ᶨẞḳ炻Ἀ倥⇘␊┚㊯㍏炻 10

Ἀ㚱ℯ⍣嶇忚ㆾ侭㚱ℯ⍣㟠⮎忶烎⤪㝄ℯ炻溆妋ℯ烎 1

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉℞⮎ㆹ冒⶙㛔Ṣ⯙ỷㆹ9 㚰6 嘇▘ᾳ⣏㚫炻⯙冒⶙䁢␿␊┚㌰㪲䤐▘┚㚱嶇忚 12

忶炻ᷳ ⇵▘┚ㆹ⯙ℯ⍣嶇忚忶ˤ 13

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉␩Ἀ冒⶙嗽䎮▭⣏㚫夳⇘㚱Ṣ㚱┚㌰㪲䤐炻Ἀ娙Ἀ⍣嶇忚炻Ἀ溆嶇忚烎 14

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉℞⮎⚈䁢9 㚰6 嘇▘㫉⯙⌛ὪⒼὪㆹ⍣怠㑯Ὢ⍣- ⌛Ὢ▘ᾳ⣏㚫ⒼὪㆹ㏆▭炻 15

悥Ὢ⇵ᶨᾳ㱽⛀炻␩ㆹ⑳⎒Ὢ䇕⍾⯙娙⍣伟⃵Ἂ⑳炻⎴❳⍣䇕⍾▘㫉ˤ␩▘㫉ㆹὪ 16

娵䁢㚱ᶨ┚⎗傥Ὢ⇵㱽⛀▭Ṣῇỷ▘┚屯≑▘┚⟙⎵␩⯙㚱ᶨᾳ㈽姜炻Ἂ⑳娙 17

ˬ┪炻ἈⒼㅱ娚␩ ⍣Ḁ㨇㉱䤐ˤ˭⌛ὪἊᾳ埿䪁Ὢ娙⸓Ṣ⑳⠓屯≑炻⌛Ὢ㚱ᾳ 18

  1. 0

屯≑▭ˤ 19

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉ㆹ⑳嫃⼿✎䘥⮹⮹炻Ἀ䏜㖍╢Ⓖ╢⹎烎 20

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉⑑◊娙烎 21

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉Ἀ⮳㖍╢Ⓖ╢⹎烎 2

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉╢⹎ˤ 23

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉Ἀ╢⹎ˤ䏜㖍㚱Ṣ嫃⯙娙㚱┚埿䪁炻䏜㖍㚱ᶨᾳ㊯㍏娙湫䡏⪴嬘⒉⯙⎓ 24

┚℔℔⧮⧮⸓Ἂ⠓┚屯≑炻␩嶇ỷ⯙㓆␿㌰㪲䤐炻Ἀ㚱ℯ倥忶␊ᾳ㊯㍏烎 25

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉㚱ˤ 26

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉Ἀ㚱倥忶␊ᾳ㊯㍏ˤ⤥炻ㆹ゛⓷ᶳἈ炻⎴Ἀ㍸↢␊ᾳ㊯㍏▭ṢὪ䛇Ὢ▘ 27

ᾳ塓㌰㪲▭Ṣ炻⭂Ὢ⎎ᶨ┚埿⛲⎴Ἀ嫃⤥Ụ㚱ṢὪ␩ 烎⌛Ὢ␊ᾳ㚱ᶨᾳ↮⇍╢ 28

⹎炻ㆹ゛䛯Ἀ⸓Ⓖ⸓⇘ㆹ⑳ˤ 29

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉℞⮎⯙ㆹℵ嫃⼿㶙ℍ┚炻⯙Ὢ㚱ᶨᾳ埿⛲⯙㚱奒冒⍣⸓Ἂ⠓炻▘ᾳ埿䪁▘⹎炻 30

␩Ṿ㚱⸓ㆹ⑳⍣倥ỷἊ⑳嫃Ḅ◊▭炻䃞⼴Ἂ⑳彼♇⎴䔒ㆹ⑳嫃ˤ 31

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉嫃Ḅ◊烎 32

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉⯙Ὢ娙Ἂ⑳⍣⇘␊ᶨᾳ䓛婳␊⻝form ▘昋㗪炻␩湫嬘⒉⯙㚱嫃ᶨ┚娙⎓Ἂ⑳ 3

Ⓖ⤥㍐侣㱽⛀▘┚␩㧋▭婒娙ˤ 34

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉ㆹ⑳ᶨ昋攻- Ἀ⥼ả␿ᷳ ⼴炻ㆾ侭ㆹ嫃Ἀ 㱽⛀ᷣ ⷕ▭㗪῁炻ㆹℵ枮⸷ 35

␩㧋⓷Ἀˤ䷥ᷳ 倥䔒- ㆹ⑳侴⭞倥Ἀ嫱ὃ炻➢㛔ᶲἈ悥Ὢ嫃䵲▭⯙Ὢ⎴䏜㖍倥⇘Ὢ 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十四天

19

本謄本由E piq 編製 ⎴ᶨẞḳẞ♇▭烎 1 ⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉⣏农ᶲ䚠⎴ˤ 2 㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉␩ㆹ⎗ẍ⓷ᶨ┚Ἀ䛇Ὢ㚱嗽䎮▭ḳˤ㎃⎍娙嫃炻Ἀ䛇Ὢ嗽䎮㱽⛀▭ḳ⊁ 3 Ὢ⍣⇘Ἀ⍣ ⥼⒉▭㗪῁炻Ὢ⑒烎 4 ⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉ℯ拗ˤ 5 㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉㎃⎍娙嫃炻␊ᾳὪ⥼ả⬷㤕ᷳ ⼴▭ᶨ┚䇕嬘炻Ὢ⑒烎 6 ⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ὢˤ 7 㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉ㆹ⑳椾⃰ 䛯ᶳἈ⸓Ⓖ⸓⇘ㆹ⑳炻ㆹ⑳夳⇘㚱┚㈽姜▭炻2024 ⸜6 㚰炻 8 ㆹ⑳⤪㝄╢G1 屯㕁⣦/721 枩炻ㆹ⑳␊⹎夳⇘╢ᾳ⸽▘⹎炻6 㚰5 嘇␊⹎㚱⮩悥 9 Ὢ⮓䓨㮹㓧嗽ˤἈ句⍣ᶳᶨ枩炻␊⹎℞⮎ᾳ㈽姜悥Ὢ⎴普屯㚱斄▭炻Ἀ夳⇘␊⹎㚱 10

ᾳ↿堐炻↿堐ᶳỶ㚱嫃忶娙普屯㖍㛇⯙ℯ䴻忶㤕ᷣ ⣏㚫▭㰢嬘忂忶炻嶇ỷἊ嫃⇘娙 1

㊱㱽⛀▭婒㱽炻䵕ᾖὪ↮昶㭝炻ⶍ䦳Ὢẍ⸜妰炻溆妋天ᶫᾳ㚰Ṍ㗺ˤἈ䞍忻㚱␊┚ 12

▭㊯㍏炻⚈䁢␊ᾳ悥ὪἈ埴↢♇▭⍇⚈炻Ὢ⑒烎 13

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ⓖˤ 14

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉侴␊ᶨ栆✳▭㈽姜℞⮎悥㚱Ὢ⍵㗈䓨䭉䎮℔⎠倥▭炻Ὢ⑒烎 15

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ὢˤ 16

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉ㆹ⑳⤪㝄䛯䔒728 枩炻Ὢ㚱⎎⢾ᶨ┚栆Ụ▭㈽姜炻Ἀ悥㚫䛯⇘⤪㝄⤥䯉 17

╖␩⍣嫃炻䫔Ḵ军䫔⚃ᾳ⓷䫼悥Ὢ栆Ụ␊┚▭㈽姜炻Ἀ冒⶙⸦㗪- Ἀ冒⶙ὪⒼὪ天 18

悥Ὢ塓天㯪⣦拊▭㗪῁⃰ 军攳⥳斄㲐烎 19

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ὢˤ 20

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉⌛Ὢ㎃⎍娙嫃2024 ⸜6 㚰炻⤪㝄Ἀ⚆䔒ⷞ⍣⇘▘昋炻䔞㗪Ἀ⇘䎮妋⯙ 21

Ὢ天⣦拊炻⎴❳ⶍ䦳↮㛇忚埴␊㧋◊炻Ὢ⑒烎 2

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ⓖˤ 23

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉ㆹ゛䎮妋ᶨᶳᶨᾳ䚠斄▭嬘柴炻⯙Ὢ⣏䵕ᾖὪⒼὪ悥婿ỷℓ⹏ᶨ滲忚 24

埴炻ㆹ⑳侴⭞䞍忻⤥⣂Ṣ悥嫃娙ℓ⹏ᶨ滲 炻⤪㝄㚱ḳ▭㗪῁炻␊ᾳ㚫⡆≈ᾳ⌙ 25

晒炻ḳ⮎ᶲṎ悥Ὢ␩ˤㆹ⑳䛯䔒㚱斄▭䲨抬炻Ἀ悥䞍忻- Ἀ⎗ẍ梚㯜ˤ 26

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ⓖ⤥シ⿅ˤ 27

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉Ἀ梚␿㯜⃰ ˤ 28

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ⓖ⤥シ⿅炻⎗ẍˤ 29

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉ㆹ⑳⤪㝄䛯䔒␊ẞḳᾳ䘤⯽炻Ἀ⼴Ἦ悥⤥䅇〱⎴⬷㤕▭⎰䲬㡅㫦炻Ὢ 30

⑒烎⚈䁢Ἀ⼴Ἦ悥䛯忶炻⤪㝄䛯F1/3 枩炻ㆹ⑳夳⇘⎰䲬㡅㫦䫔5 㡅(b) 㭝炻Ἀ 31

夳⇘␊⹎ˬ攳ⶍ㖍㛇⮯⼭ⶍ䦳栏⓷㬋⺷䘤↢攳ⶍ⎴シ㚠炻᷎ 㕤娚ấ㔯ẞᷕ ↿㖶ᷳ 㬋 32

⺷攳ⶍ㖍㛇⮯䁢㛔ⶍ䦳攳⯽㖍㛇ˤ˭嶇ỷ⤪㝄Ἀ䛯(c) 㭝炻␊⹎嫃␿娙ˬ㈧⺢⓮Ὢ 3

⽭冯㊱攳ⶍ㖍㛇崟妰炻COT/017 枩㇨↿▭ⶍἄ⣑ˤ˭Ἀ⤪㝄⍣COT/017 ▭娙炻 34

ㆹ⑳⯙㚫夳⇘炻41 枩夳⇘⎛ᶳ奺⮓ỷȾCOT/017 炱ˤὪ炻Ἀ䛯䔒ᶲ檀炻Ἀ⯙㚫夳 35

⇘ᾳ攳ⶍ㖍⎴⬴ⶍ㖍炻侴Ἀ夳⇘␊⹎嫃炻⇅㬍℞⮎Ὢ嫃␿- Ἀ夳⇘㶙刚␿▘⹎㚱䫔 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十四天

20

本謄本由E piq 編製 ᶨ㛇ˣ䫔Ḵ㛇⎴❳䫔ᶱ㛇炻Ὢ⑒烎⮎晃ね㱩Ὢ䓙㱽⛀ἄ㚨䳪㰢⭂炻Ἀ⼴Ἦ䛯䔒␊┚ 1 䲨抬炻Ἀ䞍忻Ὢ␩炻Ὢ⑒烎 2 ⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ⓖˤ 3 㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉㇨ẍⶍ䦳⎰䲬℞⮎枸妰Ὢ↮ᶱ㛇忚埴炻Ὢ⑒烎 4 ⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ἂ␩⮓炻Ὢˤ 5 㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉Ὢ炻Ἀ㛒 㱽⛀▭ᷣ ⷕ▭㗪῁炻ᷳ ⇵Ἀ䞍Ⓖ䞍׀烎 6 ⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ⓖ䞍ˤ 7 㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉⼴Ἦ♇⇘5 㚰ấ炻ㆹ⑳夳⇘ᾳね㱩悥ὅ䃞Ὢ↮ᶱ㛇▭炻ㆹ゛⓷ᶨ⓷䔒Ἀ 8 ▘ᾳ廱嬲⎴Ἀ⼴Ἦᾳ⍫冯ˤ⤪㝄⍣H1

枩炻␊ᾳὪᶨᾳ2024 ⸜5 㚰9 9 嘇▭ⶍ䦳㚫嬘䲨抬炻椾⃰ ␊ᾳὪ冲䭉⥼㚫⬱㌺▭ⶍ䦳㚫嬘炻⯭㮹㚱ℯ⼿⍫≈䔞㗪烎 10

Ἀ䞍Ⓖ䞍忻烎 1

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉ㆹⒼ㶭㤂ˤ 12

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉␩⤪㝄Ὢ␩炻Ἀㅱ娚䔞㗪悥ℯ▿娎⍫≈炻Ὢ⑒烎 13

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉ℯˤ 14

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉ㆹ⯙Ὢ゛⓷ᶳἈ炻Ἀ⼴Ἦ⮵㕤␊┚ḳね▭娵䞍ˤ⤪㝄ㆹ⑳⍣㚫嬘䲨抬䫔 15

  1. 2

枭炻句┚炻ㆹ⑳夳Ἂ␊⹎Ὢ␩嫃▭炻娙ˬ䫔ᶨ㛇⬷㖴ˣ⬷䚃ˣ⬷⽿烊䫔Ḵ㛇⬷ 16

㲘ˣ⬷⺢ˣ⬷㕘烊䫔ᶱ㛇⯙⬷忻ˣ⬷ṩˤ˭㚨䳪悥Ὢ␩句⮎忚埴▭炻Ὢ⑒烎 17

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ὢ- 䫱昋⃰ 炻Ⓖ⤥シ⿅炻ㆹ娵䛇䛯ᶨ㫉⃰ ˤὪ炻ℯ拗ˤ 18

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉␊⹎⯙␩嫃娙侴㚨䳪悥Ὢ⤥Ụ↮ᶱ㛇␩炻ỮὪ℞⮎Ἂ娙⯙娙↮ᶱ㛇炻␊ 19

ᾳ⎗傥⎒ᶵ忶ὪἊ㏕㢂▭⃰ ⼴⓷柴炻Ὢ⑒烎 20

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ⓖˤ 21

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉㚨Ⰰㆹ⑳⣏⭞悥䞍忻悥Ὢℓ⹏ᶨ滲㏕㗺ᾳ㢂▭炻⎗Ⓖ⎗ẍ␩嫃烎 2

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ὢ炻ℯ拗ˤ 23

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉␊ᾳ⎒Ὢ嫃⇘㏕怲㢇⃰ ▭┓烎 24

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ὢ炻ℯ拗ˤ 25

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉⤪㝄ㆹ⑳ℵ䛯⇘⍣2024 ⸜7 㚰17 嘇▭ね㱩炻╢F/ 1 235 枩ˤ␊⹎㚱 26

ᾳ炷English Spoken 炸炻℞⮎Ὢᶨ┚ⶍ䦳䘤ⶫ㚫㸾⁁▭炻ㆹ⑳䛯⇘⬷㤕炻Ἀᷳ 27

⼴㚱䛯忶␊┚㔯ẞ炻䔞㗪Ἀℯ⍫冯׀烎2024 ⸜7 㚰ˤ 28

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉ℯˤ 29

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉Ἀ悥Ὢℯ▭ˤ䛯F/ 1 237 枩炻␊⹎悥ẚὪ␩嫃▭炻Ἀ䔞㗪Ⓖ䞍忻␊ᾳ嫃 30

㱽炻Ὢ⑒烎 31

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉ⒼὪⒼ䞍忻炻ㅱ娚ㆹℯ䔁シ▘ᾳ㕥- ⌛Ὢㆹ㛔Ṣ炻㕥ⶍ▘ᾳ⬱㌺▘昋㗪悥ẚὪ 32

㛒䔁シˤ 3

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉⚈䁢ㆹ⑳夳⇘▭⯙Ὢ晾䃞娙↮㛇炻ỮὪ⇘␊⹎⶚䴻嫃⯙Ὢ℞⮎㚱⣏悐↮ 34

㗪攻Ὢ㚫慵䔲▭烎 35

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ὢ炻␊ᾳ䞍忻ˤ 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十四天

21

本謄本由E piq 編製 㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉溆妋ㆹ天⓷Ἀ炻⚈䁢Ἀ䓨ㆹ⑳㚠朊⚆央╢䫔19 㭝䫔(i ) ⮷㭝炻⌛Ὢ 1 WS3/16 0 ˤWS3/16 0 炻Ἀ㍸⇘2024 ⸜9 㚰⇅⯙忚埴␿ᶨ┚ⶍ䦳㚫嬘炻Ἀ娙▘ 2 ┚ⶍ䦳㚫嬘▭ね㱩Ὢ溆␊烎Ἀ娙㕘䭉⥼㚫㚱娊⓷炻⎗Ⓖ⎗ẍ䫱㭷ᶨ㛇ⶍ䦳 ⬴ᷳ ⼴ 3 ⃰ ⯽攳ᶳᶨ㛇▭ⶍ䦳ˤ嶇ỷ⬷㤕⯙⎴Ἀ嫃娙℞⮎ᾳⶍ䦳╢ᶲᶨ⯮䭉⥼㚫⎴栏⓷悥⎴ 4 シ␿炻⤪㝄Ὢᶨ㛇ᶨ㛇␩ ⯙㚫㚱⺞婌炻␊ᾳὪἈ䔞㗪⎴Ἂ⑳⁦忶⼿⇘▭ᾉ〗炻Ὢ 5 ⑒烎 6 ⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉ℯ拗炻䇕⍾忶゛↮攳 ⬴ᶨ㛇⇘ᶨ㛇ˤ 7 㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉Ἂẚ娙⤪㝄↮㛇忚埴㚫Ὢ␊ᾳᾅ嫱慹⎴❳ⶍ䦳ᾅ晒屣▭⓷柴炻⯙㚱ᶨ┚ 8 柵⢾㓗↢炻Ὢ⑒烎 9 ⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉ℯ拗ˤ 10

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉ỮὪ⮵㕤Ἀ␊┚▭妶婾炻⎴Ἂ妶婾㚱ℯ㚫嬘䲨抬烎 1

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉⤥Ụ10 㚰⇵㛒㚱㬋⺷▭㚫嬘䲨抬ˤ 12

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉⌛Ὢ悥Ὢ⎋嫃▭烎 13

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉ℯ拗炻ỮὪ㚱℞Ṿ埿⛲╢⹎ˤ 14

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉␩Ἂ⑳㚱ℯ- Ἀ⎴Ἂ妶婾␊┚ḳね▭㗪῁炻䔞䃞Ἂᾳ䫼㟰⯙Ὢ拊▭⓷ 15

柴炻ỮὪἈ⑳斄㲐▭Ὢ⬱ℐ▭⓷柴炻␩ㆹ゛⓷ᶳἈ炻䔞㗪泣㭭ㆾ侭⬷㤕⯙ℓ⹏⎴ᶨ 16

㗪攻天⚵㗺䵚㏕㗺㢂炻Ἂ⑳㚱ℯ┚⑑◊ㄪㄖ烎ἳ⤪⮵旚䀓㚱ℯ┚⑑◊䛯㱽Ἂ⑳烎 17

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉⌛ὪἈ娙⬷㤕Ἂ⑳㚱⑑◊. .

18

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉Ἀ䫼␿ㆹ⃰ ˤ 19

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉⮵Ⓖỷ炻Ἀシ⿅Ὢ娙⬷㤕▭ㄪㄖ⭂Ὢㆹ⑳␊朊▭ㄪㄖ烎⮵Ⓖỷˤ 20

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉Ἀ⑳嫃␿Ἀ⑳▭ㄪㄖ䓨Ἂ倥炻Ὢ⑒烎 21

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ὢ炻ℯ拗ˤ 2

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉⌛Ὢ溆妋娙侫ㄖⒼℓ⹏ᶨ滲 炻⚈䁢㚱Ṣ奢⼿ὪⒼὪ⤥Ụ㚱┚⌙晒烎 23

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉ℯ拗ˤ 24

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉␩Ἂ溆䫼Ἀ烎 25

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉䔞℞㗪Ἂ⑳⯙娙. .

26

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉Ἂ⑳⎴Ἀ嫃拊烎 27

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ὢ炻ℯ拗ˤ 28

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉昌␿拊ᷳ ⢾␊烎 29

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉昌␿拊ᷳ ⢾⯙ℯ嫃℞Ṿ炻⎴❳Ἂ嫃▘䎕㏕㢂ⶍṢ▘ᾳ⬱㌺炻⚈䁢Ἂ娙▘ᾳ㏕㢂 30

ⶍṢὪ㭼庫䅇䶜炻␩゛娙␊ᶨ㛇⬴␿炻⍣⇘ᶳᶨ㛇▘昋㗪悥Ὢ⎴ᶨ䎕㏕㢂ⶍṢ炻⚈ 31

䁢Ἂ⑳悥奢⼿␊ᶨ䎕㏕㢂ⷓ‭㭼庫䅇ㇳ炻Ἂ㚱␩㧋嫃忶炻Ὢˤ 32

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉ỮὪ␊ᾳⒼὪᶨ滲 㗺ℓ㢇▭䎮䓙♇׀炻Ἀ怚┚⃰ ㏕䔒悥Ὢ▘䎕ⷓ‭炻 3

Ἂ悥⎗ẍ䅇ㇳ׀烎 34

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉⚈䁢㛒⽭婳⼿䔒炻⌛ὪἊ䔞℞㗪␩嫃ˤ 35

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉ㆹ゛⓷ᶳἈ炻Ἂ⎴Ἀ娙冲㱽⛀⎴シ␿ℓ㢇ᶨ滲 炻␩Ἀ㚱ℯcheck 䔒 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十四天

2

本謄本由E piq 編製 ㆾ侭⓷䔒烎㚱ℯ䲨抬␊㧋◊烎 1 ⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉ㆹ⑳䔞㗪⯙ℯ䛇Ὢcheck 䔒▘┚㚫嬘䲨抬炻ỮὪἊ▘ᾳⶍἄ▘ᾳ炷English 2 Spoken 炸⶚䴻↢␿炻℞⮎⶚䴻ˤ 3 㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉ỮὪ⤪㝄ㆹ⑳䛯䔒ㆹ⑳柕⃰ 䛯▘┚⎰䲬ㆾ侭㚱斄ᷳ ⼴▭炷English 4 Spoken 炸炻䘬䘬䡢䡢⇅⇅Ὢ娙↮㛇 炻Ὢ⑒烎⌛Ὢ⤪㝄嫃⼿὿⮹⮹炻溆妋Ⓖ㓆䔒 5 ♇岒Ἂ烎 6 ⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉⎗傥ㆹ⑳䔞℞㗪⯙䛇Ὢℯ↮㜸⇘␩Ṽ䳘娙▘ᾳ↮㛇⇘侴⭞␊䧖↮㛇Ὢ㚱ᾳ↮ 7 ⇍ˤ 8 㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉㖶䘥ˤ␩Ἀ▘昋▘ᾳ↮㛇⎴侴⭞▘ᾳ↮㛇Ἀ娙ℯṼ䳘⍣䛯炻Ἀ▭シ⿅Ὢ 9 ⑑◊烎⌛Ὢ⤪㝄ㆹ䎮妋Ἀ▭䫼㟰炻℞⮎▘昋ℯ婿⼿␩㶭㤂炻⎗Ⓖ⎗ẍ␩嫃烎 10

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ὢ炻ℯ拗ˤ 1

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉ỮὪ⎴Ⓖ⎴シ␊炻Ụ᷶ ▘昋⬷㤕ㆾ侭泣㭭Ἂ⑳ℯ- ㆹṎ悥ⒼὪ娙Ἀ⑳␩ 12

㧋⍣ - 䔞䃞ᾳ 㱽- Ὢ侴⭞䔞䃞ㆹ⑳ḳ⼴⍣䛯⎗ẍ㚱Ⓖ⎴▭婒㱽炻ỮὪㆹ゛娙⎗ 13

Ⓖ⎗ẍ␩嫃烎℞⮎Ἂ⑳ᶨ嶗悥ℯ⍣嗽䎮Ἀ⑳ᾳㄪㄖ烎 14

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉ℯ拗ˤ 15

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉␩␊ẞḳ⯙ᶵḮḮᷳ 烎 16

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉℞⮎Ἂ昌␿Ὢ␊ᶨ㧋◊ᷳ ⢾炻⌛Ὢ⚈䁢㚨⼴悥䇕⍾Ⓖ⇘炻␩⚈䁢Ἂ⑳ẚ天䇕⍾ 17

娙゛㍸㖑㏕㢂炻ㆹ⑳悥⶚䴻Ὢ旣㬊␿Ἂˤ 18

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉嶇ỷ⎎⢾ᶨ㧋◊炻⢾䇮䈑㕁▭⓷柴␊ᾳἈ⤥㶭㤂炻⚈䁢ᷳ ⼴Ἀ⑳㚱嗽䎮 19

忶▭炻Ὢ⑒烎 20

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉㖶䘥ˤ 21

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉ㆹ⑳䛯G1

枩炻Ἀ䛯䫔5 㭝炻␊⹎㚱ᾳ- Ἀ㛃ᶨ㛃炻Ἀ㛃⬴ㆹ 2 ⃰ ⓷Ἀˤ 23

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉5 㭝烎 24

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉䫔5 㭝ˤ 25

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ὢ炻Ὢ炻Ḯ妋炻⌛Ὢ䒎Ṽ▘ᾳ⓷柴ˤ 26

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉䒎Ṽ⎴䳁䙖䞛▭⓷柴炻⌛Ὢ␊⹎Ἂ⑳Ụ᷶ ᾳ㈽姜⯙Ὢ㈧彎⓮⯙ℯ⟙₡炻 27

⯙㓡␿䓐䒎Ṽẋ㚧䳁䙖䞛炻Ὢ␊ᾳ㈽姜ℏ⭡ˤㆹ⑳䞍忻⬷㤕㚨⼴悥Ὢ嶇䔒⎰䲬䓐䔒 28

䳁䙖䞛▭炻Ὢ⑒烎 29

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ὢ炻ℯ拗ˤ 30

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉Ἀ⎗Ⓖ⎗ẍ嫃ᶨ嫃䓨⥼⒉㚫倥炻䔞㗪㚱斄䓐␊ᾳ䳁䙖䞛⎴䒎Ṽ␊ᾳ䇕 31

嬘烎 32

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ὢ炻␩␊ᶨᾳ䇕嬘℞⮎䓙ㆹ⑳ᶲảᷳ ⇵炻⣏䲬ㆹ姀⼿7 㚰ấⶎ⎛炻⶚䴻⇵㱽⛀ 3

⯙⍣㍸↢㚱␊ᾳ怠㑯▭侫ㄖ炻␩Ἂ⑳䔞⇅倚䧙▘ᾳ▭⍇⚈炻⯙Ὢ娙㚱⯭㮹⎴Ἂ⑳嫃 34

娙゛廱 ␊ᾳ⎓ Ḵ⚃⎳䒎Ṽˤ䔞℞㗪⇘ㆹ⑳ᶲả炻ㆹ⑳ᶲả⯙⶚䴻⍣⇘ᶨᾳ昶 35

㭝炻⯙Ὢ娙Ἂ⑳Ἂ⑳⶚䴻媖娊忶⎗傥ὪICU ▘┚Ṣ斄㕤䓐␊┚䳁䙖䞛廱䒎Ṽ▘ᾳ㕡 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十四天

23

本謄本由E piq 編製 㱽⼿Ⓖ⼿炻␩Ṏ悥㚱┚⯭㮹悥嫃娙⎗傥䓐䒎ṼὪ⤥┚▭炻▘昋㗪⶚䴻倥⇘ˤ␩ㆹ⑳ 1 ᶲả炻ㆹ⑳⎒傥⣈⯙娙⍣⓷ᶨ┚㱽⼳シ夳䨞䪇ㆹ⑳⣏⹰℔⣹ᶲ⎗Ⓖ⎗埴⃰ 炻⌛Ὢ娙 2 䓨Ṣ⑳廱烊䫔Ḵ㧋◊⯙Ὢ娙⮵㕤䒎Ṽ▘ᾳ₡拊㚱ℯ㓡嬲ˤ㚨⼴炻ㆹ⑳⎒Ὢ⮯␊ᶨᾳ 3 ␩㚱䇕嬘⿏⎴❳㚱⯭㮹Ἂ゛㍨␊㧋◊▭炻冱埴␿ᾳ⣏㚫䓨Ἂ⑳⍣㈽䤐ˤ 4 㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉㇨ẍ␊ᶨẞḳᷳ ⼴炻Ἀ⑳㚱⽝娊忶埿⛲▭シ夳炻Ἂ⑳㚱㈽忶䤐炻␩㇨ẍ 5 ⯙㰢⭂␿烎 6 ⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉㚱炻ℯ拗ˤ 7 㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉10 㚰5 嘇炻Ὢ⑒烎 8 ⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ὢˤ 9 㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉␊ᾳㆹ⑳䞍忻Ἀ嗽䎮␿炻Ṏ悥䚠斄▭䲨抬䁢␿㕡ὧ⣏⭞ᷳ ⼴䛯䔒炻⯙╢ 10

G1

枩炻ㆹⒼㇻ䬿ⷞἈ⍣䛯ˤᷳ ⼴⍣⇘ㆹ⑳⯙㚫嫃ᶨ嫃Ἀㆸ䁢␿ᷣ ⷕ炻ㆾ 1

侭Ἀ䇕⍾ ᷣ ⷕ▘ᾳね㱩▭ˤ 12 ᷣ ⷕ炻␊ᾳ⎗傥Ὢᶨᾳ怑䔞▭㗪῁ˤ 13

映┇⹟㱽⭀烉ㆹ⑳ẹ〗⋩Ḽ↮揀ˤ 14

15

1 1 㗪1 1 ↮修妲㉤⼴ 16

1 㗪27 ↮修妲《⽑ 17

18

映┇⹟㱽⭀烉Ὢ炻婳两临ˤ 19

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉⼸⃰ 䓇炻2024 ⸜2 㚰⯙㚱Ⓖ⮹忶5% ▭㤕ᷣ 天㯪攳㤕ᷣ ⣏㚫炻ỮὪỤ᷶ 20

ᶲⷕ▭ᷣ ⷕ惏⚳㪲⃰ 䓇⯙ℯ╢⋩⚃㖍ᷳ ℏ⎔攳▭ˤ䔞㗪ㆹ⑳䞍忻㮹㓧ḳ⊁嗽⼴Ἦ⯙ 21

↢␿⊠╣ᾉ㍸愺Ἂ天攳▭ˤ▘⮩⊠╣ᾉ╢G1

枩炻㓆▘5% ᾳ㤕ᷣ 䯥⎵炻 2

▘昋Ἀ㚱⍫冯┯炻Ὢ⑒⏨烎 23

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉▘㫉悥ℯˤ 24

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉Ἀ▘㫉悥ℯ⍫冯⏨烎 25

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉悥ℯ⍫冯ˤ 26

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉Ⓖˤ⤥◆炻␩⇘2024 ⸜5 㚰25 嘇炻▘昋⯙ὪᾳAGM 炻⣏悐↮⋩ᶨ⯮ 27

┚冲⥼⒉㚫ㆸ⒉炻⊭㊔惏⚳㪲悥Ὢ忋ả▭炻ㆹ㶐Ὢ゛⓷Ἀ⸓Ⓖ⸓⇘ㆹ⑳炻Ụ᷶ 悥⤥ 28

⣂⯭㮹ᶵ㺧Ἂ炻ỮὪἊ悥忋ả⇘炻Ἀ䞍Ⓖ䞍忻ᾳ⍇⚈ὪḄ◊⏨烎Ὢ⑒℞⮎ᶵ㺉Ἂ⑳ 29

▭ṢⒼὪ䛇Ὢ␩⣂⎾炻⭂Ὢ㚱℞Ṿ▭䎮䓙␊烎 30

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉ẍㆹ⌛Ὢ␩⣂⸜炻⌛Ὢㆹ婿ㆹ2017 ⸜攳⥳⍣- 㚱ᶨℑ⸜㗪攻㚱⍫冯␊┚▭炻 31

␩⯙嬀␿ㆹ⑳ᶨ┚- ℞ᷕ 悐↮⥼⒉炻ㆹ⑳⎓㛶⣒▘┚┯炻ẍㆹ倥䔒♇␊炻℞⮎㫉㫉 32

悥Ὢ⚈䁢㌰㪲䤐▘⹎炻ㆹ⑳Ⓖ⣈Ἂ⣂㌰㪲䤐炻⮶农⇘ㆹ㆟䔹炻㆟䔹┚㌰㪲䤐Ὢ㟡㛔 3

Ὢ㚱⎗傥⮓㗺䓨ᾳ冲㱽⛀ㆾ侭Ὢ- ䷥ᷳ Ὢ┚㌰㪲䤐Ⓖ䞍溆⼿♇ˤ 34

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉Ὢˤ 35

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉䃞⼴⯙⮓␿Ἂ⑳゛天▭䫼㟰炻㚨䳪⯙⼿↢␩▭䳸㝄ˤ 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十四天

24

本謄本由E piq 編製 㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉ㆹ⎗Ⓖ⎗ẍ␩嫃␊烎㌰㪲䤐㛔幓Ὢℯ⓷柴▭炻⚈䁢℞⮎Ἀ⑳悥㚫㚱⍣㓆 1 ᶳ㌰㪲䤐炻℞⮎␊ᾳ㨇⇞⎗傥Ἀ⎗ẍ⃒ ⊾ˤ 2 ⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ὢˤ 3 㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉ỮὪ䛯ᶳ側⼴㌰㪲ṢὪ⑒䛇㬋㚱㌰㪲▭┓ˤ 4 ⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ⓖ炻ℯ拗ˤ 5 㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉ㆾ侭㚱ℯ┚Ṣ⬠⤥Ụㆹ⑳ᷳ ⇵㚱┚ᾉẞ㈽姜娙㚱Ṣ塓㌰㪲炻⤥◆炻␩Ἀ 6 冒⶙▘昋゛巊Ἂ⑳崘▘昋炻Ἀ⑳㚱ℯ㞍忶␊㧋◊⏨烎⭂Ὢ℞⮎Ἀ⑳悥Ὢ≒≃⍣㓆㌰ 7 㪲䤐烎 8 ⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉⤪㝄Ὢ9 㚰6 嘇▘⯮Ὢ炻ㆹ⍣⍫怠▘㫉␊炻ㆹ⑳⎒Ὢ䲼䱡╢ᷕ ⣖℔⚺▘⹎㒢埿 9 䪁⍣䇕⍾┚埿⛲㓗㊩ㆹ⑳▭炻娵⎴ㆹ⑳▭䎮⾝炻␩⑒Ἂ䓨⻝㌰㪲䤐ㆹ⑳♱炻Ὢ◆ˤ 10

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉⌛Ὢ㎃⎍娙嫃炻Ἀ⑳悥㚱㒢埿䪁炻Ἀ⑳悥㚱⍣ⶴ㛃埿⛲䓨㌰㪲䤐Ἀ⑳ 1

▭烎 12

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉℞⮎ᶨ⋲ᶨ⋲烎 13

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉⌛ὪㆹⒼὪ娙␩Ὢ拗炻ㆹ㶐Ὢ゛㏆㶭㤂ᾳḳ⮎┓ˤ 14

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ὢ㚱␩ 炻ỮὪᶨ⋲ᶨ⋲▭炻ㆹ⑳▭䎮⾝Ὢ天㯪ⶴ㛃⎬ỵὪ奒冒⍫冯ㆸᾳ㤕ᷣ 15

⣏㚫炻奒冒⍣⇘䎦⟜⍣㈽䤐▭炻Ὢ◆ˤ 16

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉9 㚰6 嘇▘㫉炻ㆹ⑳䞍忻伟⃵⯙忂忶┯炻⤪㝄ㆹ⑳䲨抬╢G1

17

枩炻⤪㝄Ἀ䛯䔒㰢嬘2 炻伟⃵忂忶␿炻⤪㝄Ἀ䛯3 .2 枭炻ㆹ⑳⯙䛯⇘㕘▭炻Ἀ夳⇘ 18

Ἀᾳ⎵炻䔞㗪Ἀ⑳⋩⚃ỵ⯙䔞怠炻Ὢ⑒烎ỮὪ⯙␊ᶨ㫉▭㚫嬘␊炻℞⮎Ὢ⑒悥㚱Ṣ 19

▰㓞普㌰㪲䤐␊ᾳ⓷柴烎 20

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉悥㚱▭炻⌛Ὢㆹ⑳悥Ⓖ傥⣈䡢⭂⌛Ὢ昌␿ㆹ⑳冒⶙▘┚ᷳ ⢾炻␩℞Ṿ▭㌰㪲䤐 21

Ὢ溆㧋⼿♇⏨ˤ 2

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉Ἀ䛯G1

枩炻句⍣炻Ἀ夳⇘␊ᾳ䫔ᶱ- 䫔⚃㭝ˬ⛐㚨役ℑ㗇㛇 23

悥㚱⋨嬘⒉忋⎴䎦⯮▭㱽⛀⥼⒉ẍ⸓⯭㮹㔁㌰Ḽ叔ˣℓ叔屯≑䁢⎵炻䔞ᷕ ⮵㕘ᶨ䎕 24

⍫怠ᷣ ≽ἄ↢婌⮶⿏㊯㍏炻ㆸ㨇攳⎋㓆㌰㪲䤐˭炻Ἀ夳⇘␊ᾳ㈽姜炻Ὢ⑒烎 25

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉夳⇘ˤ 26

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉⼴ἮἈ悥䞍忻׀◃炻Ὢ⑒烎 27

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉␊⮩ᾉὪㆹ⮓׀◃炻Ὢ⑒烎 28

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉Ὢ♱炻Ἀ䛯ᶳᶲ檀炻␊ᾳ⯙Ὢᾳ⚆央┯炻Ὢ⑒烎 29

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉ℯ拗ˤ 30

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉Ⓖˤ Ἀℵ句⍣䛯ᶳ溆嫃烎␊⹎Ἀ㚱ᾳ䚜㍍▭㊯㍏Ὢ娙⥻湫⋨嬘⒉╢ 31

Facebo k ℔攳䘤ⶫ㓗㊩䎦⯮㱽⛀ˤ 32

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉ℯ拗ˤ 3

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉Ἀ冒⶙悥㚱ἄ↢␊ᾳ㊯㍏▭烎 34

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ὢ炻ㆹ⯙Ὢ娙柕⃰ ㆹ嫃▘ỵ炻⌛Ὢ柕⃰ 䁢␿␊ᾳ9 㚰6 嘇侴䚜㍍㊯㍏炻ㆹ⯙ㆹ 35

⯙Ὢ嗽䎮␊ᶨᾳ♱ˤ 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十四天

25

本謄本由E piq 編製 㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉Ⓖ炻ㆹ゛䓨ᾳ㨇㚫Ἀ炻Ἀ␊ᾳ㊯㍏▭➢䢶⯙Ὢ㚱ỵ埿⛲⎴Ἀ嫃炻Ὢ⑒烎 1 ⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ὢ炻≈❳抬枛▭ˤ 2 㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉Ⓖˤ侴㚱ℯ⯙␊ᾳ㈽姜炻Ἀ㚱ℯ℞Ṿ▭屯㕁゛墄⃭ 䓨ㆹ⑳⏨烎 3 ⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉╢ㆹ⑳䯴䳬侴⭞␊ᾳ䭉⥼㚫▘ᾳ䎕⸽塷朊炻㚱ᶨỵ侴⭞- ⌛Ὢㆹ⑳▘昋㗪ᾳ⥼ 4 ⒉㚫⥻湍▭⥼⒉炻℞⮎Ἂ悥㚱ᶨᾳ䴻㬟␊炻悥Ὢ暟⎴␩㧋▭⍿⇘湫嬘⒉▭ᶨᾳ- ⌛ 5 Ὢ㓆␊ᾳ㌰㪲䤐▭ᶨẞḳ♱ˤ␩Ἂ䔞℞㗪Ἂ⑳溆妋㚫≈ℍ娙Ὢ゛♇ ␊ᾳ⥼⒉烎℞ 6 ⮎Ἂ- ℞⮎ᾳᾳ悥Ⓖ゛ ⥼⒉ㅱ娚␩娙炻ᾳᾳ悥Ⓖ゛⌛Ὢ䎮▘┚␩㧋▭◊炻ỮὪ従 7 㕤䃉⣰⯙娙▘ỵ⥻湍▭⥼⒉┯炻␩Ἂ夳⇘ㆹ⑳㒢埿䪁▘㗪⯙⎴ㆹ⑳嫃Ἂ㚱ᶨᾳ䴻 8 㬟炻⯙Ὢ娙㚦䴻2021 ⸜ⶎ⎛炻␩Ἂ- Ⓖ姀⼿␿▘ᾳ2021 ⸜▭⣏㚫塷朊炻␩Ἂ⩥ 9 ⩥⯙Ὢ⍿⇘湫嬘⒉▘ᾳⒼ䞍⒮㒢⭂⑑◊┯炻␩㓆␿⻝㌰㪲䤐炻␩ẚ天Ὢ℺䯥␿▘ỵ 10

湍嬘⒉▭䯥⎵ˤ⼴Ἦ␩ㆹ⑳▭湍嬘⒉䞍忻ᷳ ⼴␊炻⯙⤥ㅌㄐ┯炻␩⯙⛇⇘䎦⟜⯙⍣ 1

㓆䔒▘ᾳ. .

12

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉ㆹ゛㏆㶭㤂⃰ 炻⤪㝄ἊᶨᾳṢ⍿⇘⒮㒢侴㰢⭂㌰㪲⎎⢾ᶨᾳṢὪ䫔ᶨᾳ 13

ね㱩炻Ἀ柕⃰ 㚱嫃㚱ᾳ℺䯥⎵▭ね㱩ˤ⌛ὪἊὪ. .

14

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉ˬ℺˭⏨炻℺䯥⎵炻sor y 炻℺⏨炻℺䯥▘ᾳ℺䯥ˤ 15

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉Ὢ♱ˤ 16

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ὢ◆炻ⒼὪˬℯ˭ˤ 17

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉℺䯥⎵⎾◃炻⌛ὪἊ`℺Ἂᾳ䯥⎵烎 18

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ὢ炻┙炻℺䯥炻`℺炻Ὢ炻Ὢ炻ℯ拗ˤ 19

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉⤪㝄ㆹ⒮㒢Ἀ⍣䓨ᾳ㌰㪲䤐ㆹ炻⎴ㆹ℺Ἀᾳ䯥⎵Ὢℑ㧋◊♇׀┶ˤ⌛Ὢ 20

㚱ℯἊ- Ἀ⎗Ⓖ⎗ẍ嫃⼿㶭㤂⮹⮹烎 21

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ὢ炻Ⓖ⤥シ⿅炻␊ᶨᾳ⎗傥Ὢㆹ㐰Ḫ␿炻⌛Ὢ䷥ᷳ Ἂ⯙- ▘ᾳね⼊⯙Ὢ娙Ἂ䯥 2

␿⻝㌰㪲䤐䓨␿Ἂ炻␩Ἂ⎗ẍ⠓ảỽᶨᾳṢ▭㌰㪲怲ᾳ׀◃炻Ὢ◆炻␩♱ˤ 23

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉⎒Ὢ␩烎 24

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ὢ炻␩⼴ἮἊṎ悥⟙❳⍣␊ᾳ⎓  姀侭▘⹎炻␩Ἂ㚱䔒┚炷English 25

Spoken 炸╢⹎炻ỮὪ⯙ᶵḮḮᷳ 㚨⼴ˤ 26

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉ㆹ⑳㚱⯙⚈䁢╢␊ᾳ倥嫱㚫㚱斄䭬⚵塷朊Ὢ㚱┚⮵湫䡏⪴▭㊯㍏炻ㆹ⑳ 27

㚱⎹Ἂ㍸⓷忶炻ἊṎ悥㚱⚆央▭ˤㆹ゛䓨Ἂ⚆央Ἀ䛯炻䛯ᶳ⎴Ἀᾳ䎮妋Ὢ⑒傿⎰炻 28

⤪㝄╢WS10/20 6 枩炻⤪㝄䛯䔒⇵朊⤥嬻⣏⭞䞍忻ᾳ⓷柴⎴ᾳ䫼㟰炻䛯䔒20 4 29 ⃰ 炻20 4 ⯙ὪἊ⯙⥼⒉㚫⎹Ἂ㍸↢▭⓷柴ᶨ┚▭⚆央炻侴ㆹ⑳侴⭞斄㲐▘ᶨ溆Ὢ 30

╢20 6 炻Ἀ句⮹⮹⍣䫔16 攳⥳炻Ἀ䛯⇘Ἂ䫔ᶨ炻Ἂ娙䁢⋼≑⥼⒉㚫婧㞍炻Ἂ㼬㶭 31

➢㕤⋨嬘⒉▭幓ấ⎴⍫冯埿⛲▭攟㛇Ḻᾉ炻Ἂ╢ℑ㫉㚫嬘▘⹎㓞普忶㌰㪲䤐炻Ἂ娵 32

▭␊㧋◊ˤἈ⍣ᶳỶ䛯ᶳᾳB ⎴❳C ▘⹎炻C ⎴D 炻9 㚰6 嘇⯙ὪC ▘⹎◆炻Ἂ娙 3

Ἂ㍍妠忶悐↮埿⛲炻䲬Ḵ⋩㇞⠓⮓␿Ἂ⑳ᾳ⎵▭㌰㪲䤐炻娚⣏㚫⎴㧋Ὢ堐㰢伟⃵䭉 34

⥼㚫炻悐↮埿⛲ᶵⶴ㛃伟⃵娚䭉䎮⥼⒉㚫侴㍸ὃ㌰㪲䤐炻Ἂ㚱⯙嬘䦳炻ᶨ炻ˬ㛔Ṣ 35

ㅱ㌰㪲㛔Ṣᷳ 埿⛲㈽ᶵ岲ㆸ䤐⍲˭炻Ἂ娙ˬᶲℑ㫉㓞▭㌰㪲䤐␊˭炻Ἂ⯙娙ˬℯ㍸ 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十四天

26

本謄本由E piq 編製 ὃ忶ảỽ䈑屯ἄ䁢Ṍ㎃㡅ẞ炻ℯ㓞⍾忶ảỽ⇑䙲˭炻Ἀ䛯⇘Ἂ␊ᾳ妋慳炻Ἂ⎴Ἀ▭ 1 䎮妋Ὢ⑒傿⎰烎 2 ⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉⇑䙲炻ㆹⒼ傥⣈䡢⭂炻Ὢ♱炻Ἂ㚱ℯ㓞⇘⇑䙲Ⓖ䡢⭂炻ỮὪἊ㚱㓞㌰㪲䤐炻␊ 3 ᾳ⯙Ὢ. .

4 㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉␊ᾳἊ悥Ὢ⎴シ▭嫃㱽炻Ἂ␊ᾳ妋慳Ἀ㚱ℯ屯㕁Ὢ⎴Ἂ䞃䚦▭炻ㆾ侭Ἀ 5 㚱ℯ忚ᶨ㬍▭◊⎗ẍ⸓⇘ㆹ⑳烎 6 ⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉䞃䚦⯙ℯ炻ᶵ忶Ἂ䓐ᾳㇳ㱽ㆹ⑳奢⼿Ⓖㅱ娚♱ˤ䫱⤪ㆹ柕⃰ ⮩ᾉ⯙Ὢ⮓䓨旧湍 7 ⯨攟炻゛䓨Ἂ䞍忻⯙娙ㆹ⑳奢⼿⋨嬘⒉ὪⒼㅱ娚㍺ㇳ╢␊ᾳ⎓ ⯭㮹ᷳ 攻▭ᶨᾳ㈽ 8 䤐♱ˤ 9 㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉ㆹ⑳夳⇘⣏❼㮹㓧嗽℞⮎⯙␊㫉㚫嬘㚱ᾳ⟙⏲炻╢G1

枩炻Ἀ 10

䛯ᶨ䛯ˤ9 㚰炻夳⇘┯炻␊⹎Ὢ嫃䵲9 㚰6 嘇┯炻Ἀ䛯ᶳᶨ枩ˤㆹ夳⇘䫔3 - 侴⭞ 1

ᶲ檀䫔3 㭝炻␊⹎㍸⇘㛔⋨▭斄ッ昲㳦↢ᶱ⋩⎵ⶍἄṢ⒉⋼≑㗗㫉㚫嬘▭冱埴炻㱽 12

⛀怨婳⣂⎵⺢⇞㳦⋨嬘⒉↢ⷕ炻⊭㊔湫䡏⪴⎴㚱℞Ṿ▭⎵⫿┯ˤ␊ᾳἈὪ攳㚫▘昋 13

Ἂ⑳╢⹎Ἀ䞍׀◃烎 14

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉⋨嬘⒉ㆹ娵⼿炻ỮὪἈ娙㚱ᶱ⋩ᾳ⑑◊斄ッ昲炻ㆹⒼ㶭㤂ˤ 15

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉Ⓖ䵲天炻ㆹ斄㲐▭⯙Ὢ炻䫔ᶨ炻Ἀ䡢娵℞⮎␊ᾳ⯙㚱⣂⎵␊⹎嫃娙⺢⇞ 16

㳦⋨嬘⒉↢ⷕ炻␊ᾳἈὪ姀⼿▭炻Ὢ⑒烎 17

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉⸦⣂ỵⒼ姀⼿炻Ὢ崭忶- ᶨ⭂Ὢ㭼湫䡏⪴ˣ㠭⮹Ⲙˣ伭㙱㣻炻ᷳ ⼴℞Ṿ㚱⸦ỵ 18

ㆹⒼ娵⼿㧋⎴⎵▭嬘⒉⛸╢⹎♱ˤ 19

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉Ὢ炻Ἂ⑳╢⹎ Ḅ⏨Ἂ⑳♇烎 20

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ἂ⑳悥Ὢ⛸╢⹎׀␳炻㚨⇵㌺♱ˤ 21

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉Ἂ⑳♇䛯攳㚫▭烎 2

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ὢˤ 23

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉␩㒂Ἀ▭奨⮇炻Ἂ╢⹎㚱ℯ⮎岒▭ἄ䓐׀Ἂ⑳♇烎 24

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉ℯἄ䓐炻夳嫱♱炻Ὢ⑒⏨烎Ⓖ㶭㤂ˤ 25

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉⤥◆炻ㆹ゛⓷ᶳἈ⑳㕘䭉⥼㚫ᶲ⟜ᷳ ⼴炻Ἀ⑳攳㚫悥㚱ℯ婳␊┚Ṣ♇ 26

׀烎 27

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉ㆹ⑳悥ᷣ 天Ὢ婳䔒悥㚱湫䡏⪴ˣ㠭⮹Ⲙˣ伭㙱㣻炻Ὢ◆ˤ 28

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉⌛Ὢ⯙婳Ἂ⑳♇攳㚫␊ᶨᾳ␊炻Ἀ⑳╢㕘⎴❳冲䭉⥼㚫ᾳ 㱽Ụ᷶ Ὢℯ 29

↮⇍▭炻Ἀᾳ㈽姜⎒ᶵ忶Ὢ斄㕤㓆㌰㪲䤐炻⎗Ⓖ⎗ẍ␩嫃烎 30

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉ℯ拗ˤ 31

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉␩溆妋天⎓Ἂ⑳♇炻⌛Ὢ⤪㝄Ἂ⑳⎒Ὢ♇⛸╢⹎炻㚱⑑◊ἄ䓐⏨烎 32

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉␩㧋炻ㆹ⑳攳㭷ᶨᾳ␊ᾳ⣏㚫␊炻℞⮎悥Ὢ䓙␊ᶨᾳ⎓ 䭉䎮嗽⍣⸓ㇳ➟埴▘ 3

ᾳ⣏㚫▭炻␩侴Ἂ⑳㚱ᶨᾳ- Ἂ⑳ㄋⷠ 㚫怨婳┚▱屻炻ㆾ侭Ὢ㮹㓧ḳ⊁嗽ˣⶪ⺢炻 34

␩悥㚫㚱ᶨᾳlist ␩㧋▭炻㇨ẍ⯙䄏䔒炻两临䓐䔒⎴ᶨᾳ怨婳▭list ♱炻Ὢ 35

⏨ˤ␩ỮὪ㚱㗪Ἂ⑳悥㚫⸓ㇳ溆䤐炻⌛Ὢᾳ䚋䤐炻ⒼὪ溆䤐炻䚋䤐炻Ὢ⏨ˤ 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十四天

27

本謄本由E piq 編製 㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉⤥炻ㆹ⑳侴⭞⯙嫃␿Ἀ⮵Ἂ␊ᾳ㊯㍏炻Ἀ夳忶Ἂ␊ᾳ⚆央炻Ἀ⎴Ἂᷳ 1 攻炻Ụ᷶ ἈⒼ㺧シἊ▘ᾳㇳ㱽▭⛘㕡炻Ἀ悥妋慳㶭㤂◆ˤᶳᶨ㧋◊ㆹ゛⓷Ἀ炻Ἀ⑳ 2 㕘䭉⥼㚫ᶲ⟜ᷳ ⼴⎴冲▭䭉⥼㚫㚱ℯṌ㍍׀ 烎⌛Ὢㆹ⑳娙楁㷗⤥⣂㗪嫃ㆹ天 3 handover 炻Ἂ㚱ℯ⮯㇨㚱㔯ẞṌ䔒䓨Ἀ⑳⏨炻㚱ℯ ␊┚ⶍἄ⏨烎 4 ⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉ℯ炻⬴ℐℯˤ 5 㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉ⒼˤἈ⑳⎴冲䭉⥼㚫炻Ἀ⑳伟⃵␿Ἂ⑳ᶲ␿⟜┯炻Ἀ⑳▭斄Ὢ⎗Ⓖ⎗ẍ 6 嫃娙ⒼὪ⣒⤥⏨烎 7 ⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉ⒼὪ⣒⤥ˤ 8 㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉⌛Ὢᷳ 攻ẚ㚱ᾳ䲦䳃╢⹎▭炻⤥◆炻ㆹ゛⓷ᶳἈ⑳炻Ἂ⑳塓巊崘␿ᷳ 9 ⼴炻▘䎕Ṣẚ㚱ℯ㍺ㇳ⣏䵕ᾖ▭ḳ⊁烎 10

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉ㆹⒼ䞍⎓Ⓖ⎓㍺ㇳ炻⌛Ὢℯ䚜㍍㚱倗䴉♱ˤ 1

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉Ụ᷶ ㆹ⑳嫱㒂⯙䛯⇘Ἂ⑳ẚ㚱┚斄㲐䳬ˣ㚱┚WhatsAp 佌䳬Ὢ㚫嫃⣏ 12

䵕ᾖ▭ḳね▭炻Ὢ⑒␩烎 13

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉⤪㝄␊ᶨ㕡朊⎗傥㚫㈈攳┚炻⯙Ὢ娙ㆹ⑳㓞⇘▘┚⯭㮹⎴ㆹ⑳嫃䔒⯙娙Ἂ⑳䓐 14

▘ᾳ⎓ 冲▘ᾳWhatsAp 炻⌛Ὢ冲▘ᾳ⎓ - Ἂ⑳冒⶙㚱ᾳnumber 炻⯙ ␿ᾳ 15

⎓ ⬷䤷剹ᾳWhatsAp ▘ᾳ- ⎴䭉䎮嗽ᷳ 攻▘ᾳ炻侴▘ᾳnumber ␊炻Ἂ⑳㰺 16

㓞䔒Ἂ⑳冒⶙䓐▭炻␩㇨ẍㆹ⑳冒⶙create ␿⎎ᶨᾳˤἊ⑳╢▘ᾳWhatsAp

17

group ⤥Ụ㚱忂䞍忶▘┚⯭㮹⍣⇒⎎ᶨᾳ佌䳬炻⍣⁦Ἂ⑳冒⶙◊♱ˤ 18

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉Ⓖ炻⤥ˤ嶇ỷ⇘Ἀ⑳㍍ㇳ␿炻ㆹ゛嫃ᶨ嫃炻Ἀ⑳㍍ㇳ␿ᷳ ⼴䘤䓇┚⑑◊ 19

ḳ炻Ἀ⑳ㆸ䩳␿䭉⥼㚫ᷳ ⼴炻Ἀ嫃㱽炻Ἀ⑳㚱嗽䎮䵕ᾖ⬱ℐ▭⓷柴炻╢Ἀ▭嫱Ṣὃ 20

娆䫔41 㭝⯙娙㕘䭉⥼㚫ᶲảᷳ ⼴Ἀ⑳ㆸ䩳␿ᶨ┚ⶍ䦳⮷䳬⍣嶇忚⣏䵕ᾖ▭⓷柴炻 21

Ὢ⑒烎 2

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ὢˤ 23

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉侴Ἀ⎴湍⽿晬ˣ㰇䤍䘤悥Ὢ℞ᷕ ▭ㆸ⒉炻Ὢ⑒烎 24

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ὢ炻ẚ㚱䦀㚠ˤ 25

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉㕘▭䭉⥼㚫炻Ἀ▭嫃㱽⯙Ὢㆸ䩳␿ᷳ ⼴炻Ἀ⑳悥▿娎≈⻟⎴⯭㮹▭㹅 26

忂炻゛㍸檀德㖶⹎ˤ攳␿⤥⣂㫉Ṍ㳩㚫▭炻Ὢ⑒烎 27

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ὢ炻ℯ拗ˤ 28

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉Ἀ▭嫱Ṣὃ娆䫔5 㭝嫃娙军⮹Ὢ㚱⚃⋩⚃⟜炻Ὢ⑒烎 29

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ⓖˤ 30

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉⣏悐↮Ὢ⑒Ἀ悥㚱⍫≈⏨烎 31

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉⚃⋩⚃⟜Ὢ⊭㊔❳妋婒㚫ˣⶍ䦳㚫␩♱炻Ὢ◆ˤ 32

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉Ὢˤ 3

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉⣏悐↮ㆹ悥╢⹎▭炻Ὢˤ 34

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉ㆹ⑳夳⇘㕘䭉⥼㚫╢9 㚰6 嘇ᶲả␿ᷳ ⼴炻╢䫔Ḵ㖍⯙攳␿ᶨᾳ 35

WhatsAp 佌䳬炻⯙Ὢ⎴泣㭭ˣ⬷㤕炻䭉䎮℔⎠㹅忂▭炻▘ᾳ⎓ ˬ⬷䤷剹⣏䵕ᾖ 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十四天

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本謄本由E piq 編製 Group ˭▭炻Ὢ⑒⏨烎 1 ⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉㬋䡢ˤ 2 㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉侴㕘䭉⥼㚫Ṏ悥㍸ὃ␿␊ᾳWhatsAp ▭佌䳬䓨ㆹ⑳炻㚱斄▭屯㕁┯炻 3 ὪㆸᾳBundle F4 悥Ὢ㚱斄▭␊┚屯㕁♇▭ˤㆹ⑳⤪㝄䛯䛯F4 炻␊ᾳἈ- ㆹ⑳ 4 ⤪㝄句⍣⯙䛯⇘炻␊ᾳㅱ娚Ὢ╢WhatsAp 塷朊㉥䔒┚䲨抬↢♇▭炻Ὢ⑒烎 5 ⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ὢ炻㬋䡢ˤ 6 㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉␊ᾳ䲨抬Ὢ溆⼿⇘烎Ἀ䓐怲悐暣娙download ׀烎Ἀ▘悐⭂Ὢ. .

7 ⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉ㆹ⑳ᾳ∗ᷣ ⷕ湍⽿晬⃰ 䓇ˤ 8 㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉湍⽿晬⃰ 䓇▭暣娙▘⹎炻⯙ᶳ庱␿↢♇䓨ㆹ⑳▭烎 9 ⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉ℯ拗ˤ 10

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉␊ᾳὪ⑒⬴㔜▭䲨抬♇׀烎 1

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ὢ⬴㔜׀炻Ὢ⏨炻⯙␩㧋╢ᾳ暣娙㑛⋗↢␩㧋㑛↢♇♱ˤ 12

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉⌛Ὢℯ⇒㓡炻Ṏ悥ℯ. .

13

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉ℯˤ 14

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉Ⓖˤ␊⹎ㆹ⑳䓐- ゛⎎⢾ᶨᾳ⓷柴⍣栗䣢ᷳ ⼴䘤䓇▭ḳ炻Ἀᶲả␿炻ᷳ 15

⼴⯙斄㲐▘ᾳ䘤㲉先⮩䨿▭⓷柴炻Ὢ⑒烎 16

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ὢˤ 17

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉䫔ᶨ㈡䘤㲉先⮩䨿▭䈑㕁ㅱ娚╢24 ⸜9 㚰柕炻⌛Ὢ℞⮎Ἀ⑳ᶲả▘㌺ 18

⯙忳␿⍣⬷䤷剹炻Ὢ⑒烎 19

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉ℯ拗ˤ 20

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉℞⮎⣏㤪Ὢ9 㚰6 嘇㶣炻⌛Ὢ㟡㛔ᶲ⯙Ὢ∃∃⤥Ἀ⑳ᶲả▘ᶨ㖍炻ㆹ⑳ 21

夳⇘⣏䵕ᾖ佌䳬╢9 㚰9 嘇㗷㘅12 溆08 ↮㚱ℑ⮩⬷㤕䘤↢▭忂⏲▭勱䧧炻嫃␿ 2

⯙娙G ⎴❳H ⹏㚫忚埴␊┚⮩䨿▭ᾅ嬟ⶍ䦳炻ㆹ⑳䛯F4/1016 炻Ὢ◆炻⯙㚫夳⇘ 23

㚱┚PDF 炻␊⹎ㆹ⑳䛯Ⓖ⇘▘┚旬ẞ炻ỮὪἈ夳⇘␊⹎ᾳシ⿅悥Ὢ㚱╢␊ᾳ佌䳬⹎ 24

䘤␿↢♇炻Ὢ⑒烎 25

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ὢ炻ℯ拗ˤ 26

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉Ⓖˤ␊ᾳ⎴Ἀᾳ姀ㅞ悥Ὢ- Ἀㅱ娚悥姀⼿▘昋㗪䘤䓇▭ḳ┯炻⚈䁢␩┙ 27

⯙⎗ẍ䓐Ἀ⑳攳㚫▘㖍♇ ᶨᾳ⍫侫㖍㛇炻Ὢ⑒烎 28

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ⓖ炻Ὢˤ 29

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉㕘䭉⥼㚫ㆸ䩳␿ℯ⸦侸炻9 㚰1 嘇ㆹ⑳夳⇘⶚䴻㚱⤥⣂Ṣ斄㕤⮩䨿ᾳ 30

⓷柴㚱Ⓖ⎴▭シ夳炻⤪㝄Ἀ䛯䔒1028 枩炻╢9 㚰1 嘇㗷㘅2 溆05 ↮炻ㆹ⑳夳 31

⇘㚱ᶨỵ⎓ ˬKarenᷕ 㔯侩ⷓ˭▭炻Ἀ⎗Ⓖ⎗ẍ嫃- ⚈䁢Ἂ䘤␿⤥⣂妲〗炻Ἀ 32

⎗Ⓖ⎗ẍ嫃䓨ㆹ⑳䞍ἊὪ怲ỵ炻⎓⑑◊⎵ℐ⎵ˤ 3

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉ἊὪㆹ⑳℞ᷕ ᶨᾳ⥼⒉炻Ὢ◆炻␩ᷕ 㔯⎵ㆹⒼ姀⼿␿炻⮵Ⓖỷ⏨ˤ 34

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉Ὢˤ 35

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ὢ炻ㆹ⑳⎓䔒ἊKaren 炻⮵Ⓖỷˤ 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十四天

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本謄本由E piq 編製 㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉Ὢˤ 1 ⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ⓖ⤥シ⿅炻⎵悥ℯ側ˤ␩⎗ẍ䛯䔒℞ᷕ ▭- Ὢ⏨ˤ 2 㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉⤪㝄Ὢ␩炻Ἀ䛯ᶳἊ␊ᾳᾉ〗炻Ἂ娙ˬ䪇䃞⅟㯋悥⎗ẍⒼ㉮炻倥嫃ℐ 3 悐炻⌛ὪἊ娙ἊⒼὪ㇨㚱⢾䇮⎴㗪攻 ┯炻溆妋䨿天⎴ᶨ㗪攻⮩㗺ˤ˭Ἀ夳⇘␩嫃 4 ┯ˤ 5 ⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ⓖ炻Ⓖˤ 6 㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉嶇ỷ娙ˬ㟡㛔㈧⺢⓮⯙婿ỷ㕡ὧ冒⶙Ṣㇳ⬱㌺炻ℯ婿忶⯭㮹▭㕡ὧˤ˭ 7 Ἀ姀⼿䔞㗪㚱ᾳ␩▭妶婾┯炻Ὢ⑒烎 8 ⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉侴ㆹ⑳. . 炷倥ᶵ㶭炸⌛Ὢ- Ⓖ⤥シ⿅炻Ὢㆹ⑳侴⭞䛯䔒⃰ 㚫姀⼿炻Ὢ⏨ˤ 9 㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉䔞㗪㚱ℯ妶婾忶Ⓖ⎴ᶨ㗪攻⮩㗺┚䨿烎 10

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉㚱׀炻⌛Ὢ嬔⤪Ἂ 㗺ᶨ怲炻␩ᷳ ⼴⃰  ⎎ᶨ怲炻Ὢ◆烎 1

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉Ⓖˤ␩㚱ℯ⎴⬷㤕ˣ泣㭭䞼䨞忶␊ᾳ⎗傥⿏␊烎 12

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉ㆹ侴⭞␊ᶨ⇣ℯ⌘尉炻ỮὪㅱ娚Ὢ㚱妶婾忶炻Ⓖˤ 13

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉⚈䁢溆妋ㆹ⑳␩⓷Ἀ㚱ℯ䞼䨞忶␊ᶨ㧋◊␊炻Ἀ䞍忻侴⭞℞ᷕ ᶨᾳ⓷柴 14

⯙ὪἈ⮩㗺ℐ悐䨿炻␩⑒⤥⣂䘤㲉先♱炻⤪㝄⎒Ὢ⮩ᶨ悐↮炻 ⬴⯙㏎崘炻ἳ⤪Ἀ 15

╢℞⮎ᾳỵ伖 ㇻ搧⃰ 军⮩炻␩㧋⮩䨿▭㗪攻⑒䞕┚♱炻㇨ẍ゛⓷ᶳἈ炻⯙␊ᾳ⓷ 16

柴Ἀ⑳㚱ℯ⎴⬷㤕ˣ泣㭭䛇Ὢ娵䛇␩㍊妶忶⃰ 烎 17

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉⁦ᶨ⭂㚱⁦忶▭炻␩ㆹ⑳悥゛娙⎗Ⓖ⎗ẍ ⬴ᶨ怲ㆾ侭Ὢ ỷ⸦ᾳ㦻Ⰼ⃰ ▭炻 18

␩Ἂ⑳㚱妋慳忶炻Ἂ⑳娙⚈䁢Ἂ⑳ ㇻ搧▘昋㗪␊炻Ὢ㚫㚱㨇㚫Ὢ⚵丆ỷㆸⰌ␩㧋 19

 ␩㧋炻㇨ẍἊ- ⯌℞㗗ᶳ朊▘┚⏨炻嫃䵲Ὢᶳ朊▭㦻Ⰼ炻樂┚䞛⻰句⍣炻␩㚫ㇻ 20

⇘┚䨿⏨炻㇨ẍἊ⑳⃰ 军ὪἊᶨ 天 ❳ᶳ朊␩⣂Ⰼ▭䞛Ṽ♱- ⌛Ὢ▘┚⮩䨿♱炻 21

Ὢ◆炻␩悥㚱妶婾忶ˤ 2

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉␩㚱ℯ妶婾忶 ⬴ㇻ搧⯙㉮␿Ἂ⏨烎 23

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉℞⮎Ⓖ⼿㝞炻⚈䁢Ἂ忶䦳塷朊㚱␊ᾳ⎓ - 㚱ᶱᾳ▘ᾳ⎓ ⅟㯋㨇׀炻␩℞⮎ 24

㛒ㇻ搧׀炻ἊẚὪ㚱ᾳ⅟㯋㨇㉮∑ᶨ♧炻␩▘ᾳ⸛⎘␊炻℞⮎⯙㛒ㇻ搧׀炻侣℄ẚ 25

天ㇻ搧↢♇׀炻␩㇨ẍἊ- ⤪㝄ㆹ`姕炻␩嬔⤪Ἂ30 㦻嵴␿ᶨ䰺䞛句⍣炻㑆句⍣ 26

ᶳ朊10 㦻炻ᷳ ⼴㑆句⍣▘┚℞ᷕ ᶨᾳ䪡⍵⻰⯙㚫⻰⇘炻Ὢ⏨ˤ␩㇨ẍἊ⑳Ὢ㛒⬴ 27

ㆸㆸᾳㇻ搧炻Ἂ⑳⯙Ⓖ㚫㉮ˤ 28

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉⌛Ὢㆹ㖶ㆹ⑳㚱⮹⮹Ὢḳ⼴⫼㖶␩炻ỮὪ㚱ℯ侫ㄖ忶Ἀㇻ搧▭ⶍ䦳炻嬔 29

⤪㜙⋿大⊿↮攳⚃朊 ␊烎␩Ἀ⑒Ⓖ㚫㚱Ἀ嫃▘ᾳ⓷柴♱ˤ 30

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ἀ嫃⼿┙▭炻⌛Ὢ侴⭞婿⎗傥㚱⤥⣂㕡㱽炻ỮὪ䔞℞㗪Ἂ⑳嫃⇘▘ᾳね⼊⯙Ὢ 31

ㆹ⑳悥㚫㍍⍿␿炻⯙娙⚈䁢Ἂ⑳ㇻ搧⬴ᷳ ⼴⯙㚫抒䳁䙖䞛▭炻␩Ἂ⑳㚫Ⓖ㚫娙 㗺 32

ᶨ怲ᷳ ⼴炻ℵ抒❳䳁䙖䞛炻ᷳ ⼴⃰  昼䰔▘ᾳ炻䔞℞㗪Ἂℯ㍸嬘␊ᾳ㕡㱽ˤ 3

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉㖶䘥炻⌛Ὢ䔞㗪Ἂℯ㍸ὃᶨᾳ␩▭㕡㟰䓨Ἀ⑳ˤ 34

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ὢ炻ℯ拗ˤ 35

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉侴Ἀ⑳悥ℯᶨᾳ- ⎗傥ℯ▘ᾳ- ⮵㕤ᾳⶍ⸷ℯ▘ᾳ䞍嬀⍣⓷Ἂ炻Ἀシ⿅ 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十四天

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8 㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉⎎⢾ᶨ㧋妶婾忶⯙Ὢ⮵㕤▘ᾳ旣䅫䈑㕁炻⮩䨿䈑㕁Ὢ⑒旣䅫▭妶婾◆炻 9 Ἀ⑳Ὢ㚱╢␊ᾳ佌䳬塷朊妶婾忶␊㧋◊▭ˤ 10

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ὢˤ 1

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉ㆹ悥゛Ἀ⸓ᶨ⸓ㆹ⑳ˤ⍣1029 炻3 溆28 ↮▭㗪῁炻␊⹎⯙娙ˬἊ侴⭞ 12

湸ᾳὪ䘤㲉先炻ⒼὪ扩⟹㜧炻Ὢ㖻䅫䈑㕁˭ˤἈ夳⇘㚱Ṣ㚱␩嫃忶┯ˤ 13

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ⓖˤ 14

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉Ἀ冒⶙嫃▭烎 15

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ὢ炻ㆹ⓷Ἂ炻Ⓖˤ 16

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉㇨ẍᾳ⓷柴䔞㗪Ἀ⤥㖑悥㍸↢␿◆炻Ὢ⑒烎 17

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉ℯ拗ˤ 18

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉溆妋Ἀ㚫㍸↢䓐␊⹎嫃▭扩⟹㜧烎 19

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉⚈䁢ㆹ㚱㗪㶟㵮␿炻Ἂ娙㚱┚⎓扩⟹㜧♇ ⮩䨿▭炻␩⼴Ἦ⃰ 䞍忻⍇Ἦ扩⟹㜧 20

Ὢ⮩▘ᾳ⎓ ⅟㯋㨇▘ᾳỵ炻⯙ⒼὪ⮩㬋ⷠ ▘┚䨿⎋♱ˤ 21

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉␩㚱ℯ㍊妶忶溆妋Ⓖ⎗ẍ䓐扩⟹㜧⮩䨿烎 2

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉⚈䁢Ἂ⑳ℯ嫃娙▘ᾳ- Ἂ⑳䯉╖嫃⎍娙䘤㲉先⯙⎗ẍ䎦⟜⍣ा⤥㗺▘ᾳ- 䎦⟜ 23

⌛⇣ ▘ᾳा▘ᾳ㕡㱽⎾◃ˤ 24

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉Ἀ䔞㗪悥㚱⎴⯭㮹- ⌛Ὢ㚱⎹⬷㤕廱忼⯭㮹▘┚⯙⬱ℐ▭㑼ㄪ炻ㆹ⑳夳 25

⇘Ḽ㕡㚫嬘䲨抬炻╢H1

枩炻ㆹ⑳夳⇘␊ᾳὪἈᷣ ㊩׀┯烎 26

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ⓖˤ 27

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉␊ᾳὪᶲảᶵᷭ 炻⤪㝄Ἀ⍣⇘19.1 ˣ19.2 炻␩␊⹎Ἀ夳⇘䔞㗪Ἀ㚱⍫ 28

冯炻Ἀ䭉⥼㚫堐䣢㓞⇘㤕㇞䅫䅺ᾅ嬟䨿⎋䍣䐫㇨䓐▭䘤㲉先▭⼙䇯炻⌛Ὢ㓞⇘㚱┚ 29

䇯┯ˤ 30

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ⓖˤ 31

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉嶇ỷ19.2 ▘⹎嫃⇘⯙娙⬷㤕▭妋慳⯙Ὢ䄁柕➢㛔ᶲ⯙Ὢ䃓Ⓖ叿炻㖶䀓 32

⯙- 嫃㱽⯙⎗傥Ⓖ⎴◆炻⎎ἄ⇍婾ˤ 3

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ⓖˤ 34

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉Ἀ䔞㗪ᾳ䎮妋悥Ὢ␩炻Ὢ⑒烎 35

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉ℯ拗ˤ 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十四天

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本謄本由E piq 編製 㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉⬷㤕␊ᾳ嫃㱽炻ㆹ゛⓷ᶳ炻Ἀ⑳㚱ℯ堐䣢⎴シㆾ侭Ⓖ⎴シ烎㚱ℯ岒娊Ἂ 1 ⑳⯙Ὢ娙ˬ悥ὪⒼ㌪┶˭炻㚱ℯ␩妶婾忶烎 2 ⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉℞⮎ㆹ⑳ᶨ攳柕⶚䴻⤥斄㲐▘ᾳ䘤㲉先▘ᾳ炻␩ㆹ⑳⓷❳栏⓷Ἂ⑳䨞䪇⎗Ⓖ⎗ 3 ẍ䓐␊┚䘤㲉先ㆾ侭Ὢ⌛Ὢ⮩䨿䈑㕁⎗Ⓖ⎗ẍ䓐䘤㲉先␊㧋◊烎␩䓙㕤Ἂ⑳栏⓷悥 4 ⎴ㆹ⑳嫃娙ㆸᾳⶍ䦳塷朊炻Ἂ⑳Ὢℯ▘ᾳ㖶䀓╢⹎炻㇨ẍἊ⑳⯙娙炻ㆹ⑳㚨斄㲐▘ 5 ᾳ䄁柕▘ᾳ⓷柴炻␩Ἂ⑳⯙䓐␿䄁柕♇ ␊ᾳ㷔娎䓨ㆹ⑳䛯炻娙⯙䬿䄁柕悥ὪⒼ㚫 6 㚱␊ᾳ叿䀓␊ᾳね⼊ˤ 7 㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉␩Ἀ⑳Ὢ㍍⍿␿␊ᾳ嫃㱽▭炻Ὢ⑒烎 8 ⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉℞⮎悥ⒼὪ㍍⍿炻ㆹ⑳- Ἂ晾䃞␩嫃炻ỮὪㆹ⑳悥ẚ゛娙炻Ἀ⎗Ⓖ⎗ẍ䓐ᶳ℞ 9 Ṿ▘┚䈑㕁烎␩䔞ᷕ ㆹ⑳ẚ- ⎗傥␊⹎ẚ㚱⼿䛯炻␩℞⮎Ἂẚ㚱⎎ᶨ䧖䈑㕁Ὢᶨ┚ 10

⤥䠔幓▭ᷕ 䨢㜧▭炻␩ὪἊ▘- ẍㆹ⑳㇨䞍炻⯙娙Ἂ␊ᾳ䠔幓ᷕ 䨢㜧℞⮎䓐╢ㇻ搧 1

ḼⰌ▘㗪炻⯙㚫ḼⰌ⯙抒ᶨ⟲╢朊⹎炻␩- Ὢˤ 12

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉Ὢ炻ㆹ⑳ᷳ ⼴┚WhatsAp 㚫䛯⇘▭ˤ 13

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ὢ炻⚈䁢ㆹ⑳冒⶙夳Ἂ⤥䠔幓炻奢⼿⤥Ụ⤥- ⌛Ὢ㭼庫⌛Ὢ䨑⚢炻␩ㆹ⑳⯙娎 14

ᶳ㏝ㇻ䀓㨇䅺Ἂ炻␩ㆹ姀⼿㚱⏰ᶲ▭▘ᾳ炻␩䅺忶ᷳ ⼴炻䘤奢Ἂ䛇Ὢ㭼庫旣䅫炻␩ 15

ㆹ⑳⯙⓷ἊˬἈ⎗Ⓖ⎗ẍ䚜ね䓐␊ᶨ晣㭼庫䠔幓▭ᷕ 䨢㜧ᶲ⍣烎˭ỮὪ⚈䁢Ἂ⑳娙 16

␊晣䠔幓ᷕ 䨢㜧Ⓖ傥⣈╢䎦⟜▘⹎ा炻␩ἊⒼ⎗ẍ⌛⇣抒ᶲ⍣炻Ἂ娙⎒Ὢ㚫⽒䑘ℵ 17

䓐⯙ὪἈḼⰌ⬴␿ᷳ ⼴⯙ᶳᶨᾳḼⰌ炻␩Ἂ⯙㚫慵䓐䔒▘┚⶚䴻ा⤥ˣ⤥⣏⟲▭ᷕ 18

䨢㜧炻㇨ẍἊ⑳㍐㏒␿ㆹ⑳炻␩. .

19

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉Ὢˤ 20

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉ᷳ ⼴⯙ℵ䛯ᶳὪ⑒. . 炷倥ᶵ㶭炸 21

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉ᷳ ⼴┚WhatsAp p 㚱妶婾▭炻ỮὪ⤪㝄攟娙䞕婒▭娙炻ㆹ⑳倥句⍣炻␊ 2

┚妋慳㚱㗪ㆹ⑳悥侴⭞ḳ⼴䛯䔒悥㚱┚⓷柴炻℞⮎晣晣䨿ㅱ娚Ὢ㚱⚢⭂▭⯢䡤ˣ⯢ 23

⮠▭炻ἊⒼἧ╢䎦⟜ा炻⎗ẍा⭂▭炻╢㦻ᶳ炻Ὢ⑒烎 24

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ⓖ炻Ⓖˤ 25

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉㇨ẍ娙Ⓖ⎗ẍ⍣⇘䔞㗪⃰ ा炻␊ᾳỤ᷶ ⒼὪᶨᾳ⤥㚱婒㚵≃▭嫃㱽炻Ἀ 26

⎴Ⓖ⎴シ烎 27

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉侴⭞䛯䔒⤥ỤὪ炻Ὢˤ 28

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉⎎⢾▘ᾳ娙䄁柕䃓Ⓖㅱ娚䃓叿▘┚䘤㲉先炻䔞㗪Ṏ悥㚱┚WhatsAp 嫃 29

忶炻ỮὪ⤪㝄䓐㖶䀓炻䔞䃞㚱⤥⣂䈑㕁悥㚫䅫䅺炻⊭㊔䪡㢂ㆾ侭㢂䵚炻䔞㗪㚱␩嫃 30

忶▭烎 31

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ὢ炻ℯ拗炻Ἂ䎦⟜悥㚱嫃忶ˤ 32

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉䎦⟜悥㚱嫃忶ˤỮὪ⤪㝄Ὢ␩▭娙炻␊ᾳ䄁柕䃓Ⓖ叿䘤㲉先␊ᶨ㧋◊ㅱ 3

娚䓨Ⓖ⇘⤥⣏▭ᾉ⽫Ἀ⑳炻⚈䁢ㆹ⑳䞍忻℞⮎䄁柕⤪㝄䃓叿␿℞Ṿ䈑㕁炻⯙㚫嬲ㆸ 34

ᶨᾳ㖶䀓炻Ὢ⑒烎 35

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉⎗ẍ␩嫃▭ˤ 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十四天

32

本謄本由E piq 編製 㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉ỮὪ䔞㗪Ụ᷶ ⬷㤕悥ℯ⎴Ἀ⑳妶婾忶␊ᶨ㧋◊炻侴Ἀ⑳➢㛔ᶲ⯙Ὢ㍍⍿ 1 ␿Ἂ⑳▘ᾳ嫃㱽炻⎗Ⓖ⎗ẍ␩嫃烎 2 ⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉℞⮎⯙ⒼὪ㍍⍿嫃㱽▭炻Ὢㆹ⑳⌛Ὢ䃉⎗⣰ỽˤ⚈䁢ㆹ⑳- Ἂ⶚䴻Ⓖ偗⍣㎃␊ 3 ᶨ晣- - ㆹ⑳▘晣ᷕ 䨢㜧炻䃞⼴Ἂ▭妋慳Ṏ悥Ὢ娙炻␊ᾳ㱽ἳᶲὪℯ␊ᾳ天㯪▘ᾳ⮩ 4 䨿䈑㕁Ὢ⑒㚱ᶨᾳ旣䅫⿏炻⎴❳ㆹ⑳⶚䴻奢⼿娙ˬ┪炻Ἀ␩㧋Ⓖ⼿┶炻Ἀᶵ⤪⓷❳ 5 㴰旚炻䛯ᶳ㴰旚㚱ℯ溆㧋⚆ㅱ˭ˤ␩Ἂ⑳⯙╢9 㚰炻ㆹ婿Ἀ⎗ẍ䛯䔒WhatsAp 6 䲨抬炻␩Ἂ⯙㚱央䔒娙Ἂ暣娙ㇻ␿⍣䓨㴰旚炻⯙倚䧙⯙娙␊ᾳ䘤㲉先悥ℯ娙Ⓖ⎗ẍ 7 䓐╢▘⹎ˤ 8 㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉␊ᾳὪ⬷㤕⎴Ἀ嫃▭烎 9 ⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉ℯ拗炻Ὢˤ 10

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉⮵Ἀ℔忻┚炻ᷕ 䨢㜧ㆾ侭Ἂ⑳Ⓖ偗㎃䓐ᷕ 䨢㜧␊ᾳὪ㚱䲨抬▭炻Ἀ䛯䔒 1

F4/1035 枩ˤ⬷㤕▭ỽ⃰ 䓇㚱嫃▭炻1 溆28 ↮炻Ἂ␊⹎嫃娙ˬ⤪㝄天㚜㎃䈑㕁炻 12

天䫱䫔Ḵ㛇⃰ ⎗ẍ炻⚈䁢䫔ᶨ㛇▭ᾅ嬟ⶍ䦳忚埴ᷕ 炻䈑㕁⯙⍣␿⛘䚌˭ˤἊ娙ˬᷕ 13

䨢㜧悥Ὢ㚫㖻䅫䅺▭炻⌛ἧ㚱旣䅫炻⤪㝄Ὢ㖶䀓炻Ἂ䅺叿䀓⊊悥㚫咻⺞˭炻Ὢ⑒烎 14

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ⓖˤ 15

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉㇨ẍ⌛Ὢ㎃⎍娙嫃炻Ἂᾳ䫼㟰℞⮎悥ⒼὪ䈡⇍䎮゛▭炻⚈䁢⤪㝄Ἂ娙ᷕ 16

䨢㜧㚱㖶䀓㚫䅺炻␩䘤㲉先㚱㖶䀓悥Ὢ㚫䅺▭┓ˤ 17

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ὢˤ 18

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉ỮὪ䔞㗪⬷㤕ㆾ侭泣㭭Ἂ⑳悥Ὢ➭㊩䓐䔒䘤㲉先炻Ὢ⑒烎Ἀ▭嫃㱽Ὢ烎 19

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉ℯ拗ˤ 20

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉Ἀ╢Ἀ▭嫱Ṣὃ娆72 㭝▘⹎娙␿㕘䭉⥼㚫㚦䴻德忶ᶵ⎴▭䭉忻⎴㈧彎 21

⓮⎴❳ⶍ䦳栏⓷㞍娊␊┚㚱斄▭⓷柴炻Ṏ悥娙㒂䞍炻⯙␊䧖▭冐㗪⮩䨿䈑㕁Ὢℯ嫱 2

㚠⎗ẍ娵⎗▭ˤㆹ゛䓨ᾳ㨇㚫Ἀ妋ᶨ妋炻Ἀ娙Ἀ⑳䓐Ⓖ⎴▭䭉忻⍣⓷炻Ἀ⓷怲ᾳ烎 23

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉ㆹ⑳⓷-ᷣ 天ㆹ⑳㏝▘ᾳ⎓ ⬷㤕▭Gordon Ho 炻Ὢ炻␩䔞℞㗪柕⃰ ᶲ徘▭ 24

嫃▘┚⯙娙ㆹ⑳䇕⍾⎗Ⓖ⎗ẍ䓐ᷕ 䨢㜧炻␩Ἂ⑳Ⓖ偗⎾◃炻␩ㆹ⑳⯙娎ᶳ⍰㏝ᶳᶨ 25

┚䵚ᶲ㚱ℯᶨ┚嬔⤪䘤㲉先▘┚旣䅫⿏檀┚▭䓨Ἂ㎃炻␩ㆹ⑳⯙䓨␿┚䇯Ἂ䛯▭炻 26

␩ㆹ⑳䓨␿┚䇯Ἂ䛯炻⯙娙䓨Ἂ䞍ˬἈ␊ᶨ- ⌛Ὢ␊⹎Ὢ㚱┚ℯ␩㖻䅫▭䘤㲉先˭ 27

⎾◃炻㇨ẍㆹ⑳⯙䇕⍾娙ˬἈ⎗Ⓖ⎗ẍ㏝䓨ㆹ⑳˭炻Ὢ炻␩⤪㝄枮ỷ句炻枮ỷ句炻 28

Ἂ▘ᾳ炷English Spoken 炸⯙两临句炻Ὢˤ␩. .

29

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉Ἀ75 ˣ76 㭝▘⹎⯙妋慳␿▘ᾳἊ⑳娙䓨Ἀ䞍炻柕⃰ ㆹ⑳䛯忶䓐ᷕ 䨢㜧 30

溆妋Ⓖ⼿炻⚈䁢䎦⟜ाⒼ⇘▘ᾳ⓷柴ˤ␩Ἀ⑳ᷳ ⼴Ṏ- ἈṎ悥㍸忶炻⤪㝄䛯䔒Ἀ▭ 31

嫱Ṣὃ娆炻⯙Ὢ娙Ἀ⑳㍸↢␿ㇻ搧▭㗪῁炻Ἂ⑳⎴Ἀ嫃忶ˬ䘥刚ᷕ 䨢㜧⎴❳䘤㲉先 32

悥㚫ᶨ滲䓐▭炻㭷ḼⰌㇻ搧䵲⯙㚫≈▘⟲ᷕ 䨢㜧˭炻Ὢ⑒␩㧋㧋烎 3

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉ℯ拗炻Ὢˤ 34

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉ỮὪ⎗Ⓖ⎗ẍ␩嫃烎≈⟲䘥刚ᷕ 䨢㜧⮵旣䅫⯙ℯ⸓≑▭炻⚈䁢▘⟲䘤㲉 35

先悥╢⹎⎾◃烎 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十四天

3

本謄本由E piq 編製 ⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ἂ≈⟲ᷕ 䨢㜧Ὢ- Ἂ▭䚖䘬Ὢ旚㬊┚䞛Ṽㇻ䇃▭┓炻Ὢ炻⮵Ἂ♇嫃Ὢˤ 1 㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉ỮὪ▘- 㛔幓⶚䴻㚱⟲䘤㲉先╢⹎׀┯◃烎 2 ⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉⒎炻⚈䁢Ἂ䚜㍍ㇻ搧▘ᾳ堅㑲⣏┚炻Ἂ⑳娙ˤ 3 㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉⌛Ὢ㇨ẍἊ娙忋䘤㲉先悥Ⓖ⣈炻㇨ẍ天ℵ≈烎 4 ⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉樂Ⓖ⣈炻Ὢ炻⚈䁢Ὢ▘ḼⰌ┓炻㶐Ὢˤ 5 㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉㕘䭉⥼㚫℞⮎ㆹ⑳䞍忻Ἀ⑳悥冒⶙ ␿ᶨ┚䘥刚ᷕ 䨢㜧▭侸䅫㷔娎炻⯙ 6 娙- Ἀ╢74 ⎴75 㭝嫃娙炻Ἀ⑳奢⼿▘ᾳ侸䅫⿏Ὢ庫Ἓ▭ˤ 7 ⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ὢ炻ℯ拗ˤ 8 㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉Ἀ⑳冒⶙Ὢ㏝┚◊♇䅺炻娎ᶳ炻㏝┚㜧♇䅺炻Ὢ⑒烎 9 ⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ὢˤ⤥Ụ▘㭝⏰㓡␿ᶲ⍣▘⟲- ▘ᾳv i d e o ␩㧋炻ㆹ⑳䅺Ἂᶨ奺炻Ὢˤ 10

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉ㆹ⑳攳㟰昛娆㗪῁炻ㆹ⑳䛯忶▘┚video 炻ㆹ⑳⮳㖍悥㚱倥忶㚱ℑỵㇻ 1

搧ⷓ‭悥⎴シ炻℞⮎㈨埻ᶲ檀⎗ẍ層␿⟲ᷕ 䨢㜧ᶲ⍣炻嶇ỷℵ≈䘤㲉先▭ˤ␊ᶨᾳ 12

Ṏ悥ℯ侫ㄖ忶炻䔞㗪炻Ὢ⑒烎 13

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉䔞㗪ℯ㍸↢忶炻Ὢˤ 14

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉Ṏ悥ℯ⺢嬘⬷㤕␩⍣ 烎 15

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉ℯ婿⇘ˤ 16

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉ㆹ゛⓷ᶳἈ炻␩Ἀ⑳␊ᾳ妶婾炻䓐䘤㲉先⭂䓐ᷕ 䨢㜧⭂䓐┚旣䅫℞Ṿ▭ 17

䈑㕁炻⍣⇘⸦㗪烎 18

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉ㅱ娚10 㚰╍炻10 㚰柕⍣⇘炻ⶖⒼ⣂炻⚈䁢. .

19

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉␩➢- ⎗ẍ➢㛔ᶲ嫃炻⌛Ὢ⽆9 㚰⇘10 㚰㚱ᾳ␩▭妶婾烎 20

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ὢ炻ℯ拗ˤ 21

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉⇘10 㚰㏆Ⓖ㌪⯙㓦㡬␿炻Ὢ⑒烎 2

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉⍰ⒼὪ㓦㡬炻㚨⼴ㆹ⑳䇕⍾⇘Ἂ䓐- Ἂ⑳㏝␿䫔Ḵ㈡㭼庫旣䅫⿏檀┚▭䘤㲉先 23

彼♇炻␩⯙嬲␿⎗ẍ䓐╢䫔Ḵˣ䫔ᶱ㛇▘⹎ˤ 24

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉ㆹ゛Ἀ⸓ㆹ⑳▭炻⯙Ὢ℞⮎╢妶婾ᷕ 攻炻ㆹ⑳夳⇘⬷- 湫ᾈ䃞⃰ 䓇⯙⬀ 25

␿ᶨấ㔯ẞὪ堐忼泣㭭⮵ἧ䓐䘤㲉先▭䛯㱽▭炻␊ᶨấ㔯ẞㆹ⑳夳⇘╢䔞㘂9 㚰 26

13 嘇炻⌛Ὢ℞⮎ẚὪ㚱㭼庫㽨䁰▭妶婾▭㗪攻䘤↢♇▭炻ㆹ⑳⤪㝄䛯O2/1 54 炻 27

⤪㝄Ἀ夳⇘10 溆炻2 溆3 1 ↮51 䥺炻㚱ᾳ旬ẞ▭炻Ὢ⑒烎ㆹ␊ᾳ旬ẞㆹ⑳╢ 28

O2/1403 ▘⹎䛯⇘ˤ 29

ㆹ゛⓷ᶨ⓷Ἀ⑳▭⯙Ὢ炻⇵⸦㖍Ἀ⑳Ṍ␿Ἀ⑳▭嫱Ṣὃ娆炻␩ㆹ⑳Ṏ悥䛯䔒Ἀ 30

⑳ᾳWhatsAp 䲨抬炻⎴㰇䤍䘤⃰ 䓇▘┚WhatsAp 䲨抬⍣⮵ᶳ㚱ℯⒼ⎴炻␩ㆹ 31

⑳⯙䘤奢ἈṌ♇▘┚WhatsAp 䲨抬炻⯙ℯ␊┚㔯ẞ▭炻␩ㆹ゛䓨Ἀ䛯ᶳ塷朊▭ℏ 32

⭡炻䛯ᶳἈ姀Ⓖ姀⼿␩嫃忶ˤ 3

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ⓖˤ 34

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉嬔⤪Ἂ␊⹎嫃炻Ἀ夳⇘ˬ㕤䎦埴㱽ἳ夷∫ᶳ˭炻嶇ỷᶳᶨ⎍⯙娙ˬ᷎ ℯ 35

䠔⿏夷⭂⽭枰℟⁁侸䀓ㆾ旣䅫≇傥炻ᶨ凔侴妨炻㕤⶚⺢ㆸ▭⺢䭱䈑⢾䇮忚埴ᾖ吢ⶍ 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十四天

34

本謄本由E piq 編製 䦳Ⓖ㚫䓊䓇䀓嬎桐晒˭ˤἈ夳⇘炻Ὢ⑒烎 1 ⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ⓖˤ 2 㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉Ἀ䔞㗪䛯忶炻Ὢ⑒烎 3 ⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉ℯ拗ˤ 4 㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉Ἀ娵䁢␊┚嫃㱽⎰Ⓖ⎰䎮烎Ὢ⑒⯙Ὢ␩婒㚵␿㕘▭䭉⥼㚫烎 5 ⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉ℯ娙⎰Ⓖ⎰䎮炻⌛ὪἊṌ␿Ἂ␊ᶨᾳ妋慳䓨ㆹ⑳倥炻ỮὪㆹ⑳悥奢⼿⎗ẍℵ忚 6 ᶨ㬍⓷㶭㤂㴰旚▘┚ˤ 7 㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉␩ㆹ゛⓷ᶳ炻⯙Ἀ⑳娙゛忚ᶨ㬍⓷㶭㤂㴰旚炻╢WhatsAp 塷朊炻ἈὪ 8 嫃忶炻Ṏ悥㚱Ṣ㍸忶炻⎴㴰旚嗽Ḯ妋忶▭烎 9 ⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉ℯ拗ˤ 10

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉娙⎴㴰旚嗽Ḯ妋忶▭Ὢ怲ᶨᾳ烎 1

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉⤥ỤὪ炷English Spoken 炸ˤ 12

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉炷English Spoken 炸Ὢ怲ᾳ烎 13

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ὢ泣㭭栏⓷▭℞ᷕ ᶨᾳẋ堐ˤ 14

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉Ἂ⯙娙⎴㴰旚嗽Ḯ妋忶炻␩Ἀ姀Ⓖ姀⼿Ἂ溆䫼Ἀ烎 15

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉ἊὪ娙⯙ỷㆹ⑳▭天㯪炻⯙ㇻ␿暣娙䓨㴰旚炻䃞⼴⯙Ἂ娙㴰旚⚆央Ὢˬ䘤㲉先 16

Ὢℯ˭- ㅱ娚娙ˬ䘤㲉先ℯ娙Ⓖ䓨䓐╢␊ᾳ⮩䨿▘⹎˭炻ỮὪ⯙␊ᾳ天⮷⽫䔁シἊ 17

㚱ℯ䓨℞Ṿ◊⍣⸚㒦ˤ 18

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉溆悥⤥炻⤪㝄ㆹ⑳攟娙䞕婒▭娙炻⌛Ὢ㎃⎍娙嫃炻泣㭭␩⎴Ἀ⑳嫃⬴ᷳ 19

⼴炻⇘㚨⼴Ἀ⑳悥䃉⎗⣰ỽ䓐炻暨天䓐䔒䘤㲉先炻Ὢ⑒烎 20

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉ℯ拗ˤ 21

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉㚱ᶨ溆ㆹ゛⓷ᶨ⓷Ἀ溆妋ℯ嶇忚▭炻⤪㝄ㆹ⑳䛯䔒ᾳWhatsAp 佌䳬炻 2

1063/F4 炻⤪㝄ㆹ⑳⍣䛯䔒5 溆52 ↮炻␊⹎Ἀ㚱ᾳ␩▭妲〗▭炻Ἀ␊⹎嫃⇘炻Ἀ 23

娙␊ᾳ慵溆Ὢᶨ⻝- ␊⻝▭- ᶨ↢␊⻝▭忂⏲炻⍰㚫廒徜炻⣏⭞⍰⓷㱽⛀㚫⑑◊- 24

炸炻夳Ⓖ夳⇘烎 25 ⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ⓖˤ 26

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉㇨ẍ天栏⓷℔⎠ẍ㚠朊Ṍẋ炻溆妋㍍⍿䓐ᶵ旣䅫䈑㕁烎 27

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉ℯ拗ˤ 28

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉䫔ᶨ炻㱽⛀㚱ℯ⎴⯭㮹Ṍẋ炻℞⮎Ἀ⑳䓐▭Ὢᶵ旣䅫䈑㕁烎 29

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉ㆹ⑳ㅱ娚Ὢ╢▘┚Ṍ㳩㚫▘⹎⶚䴻嫃忶炻Ὢ炻⚈䁢⤥⣂Ṣ悥⓷ˤ 30

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉Ἀ⎓泣㭭↢ᾉ炻ㆾ侭䓐Ἂ▭⎵佑炻⌛ὪἊ嫃㚨⤥ˤ 31

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉ℯ拗ˤ 32

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉ỮὪ㚨䳪Ὢ⑒ℯ␩ 烎 3

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉ㅱ娚⯙- Ⓖ姀- ℯ炻ㅱ娚ℯˤ 34

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉Ụ᷶ ℯˤṎ悥ὪỤ᷶ Ὢℯ嶇忚忶炻Ὢ⑒烎 35

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉㶐Ὢ嫃忂忶␊㕡朊Ὢˤ 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十四天

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本謄本由E piq 編製 㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉⌛Ὢ嬲␿⯙Ὢ攳㚫▘昋㚱妋婒忶烎 1 ⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉ℯ拗ˤ 2 㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉ㆹ⑳夳⇘Ụ᷶ Ἀ⑳ᷳ ⼴⯙ℯℵ岒䔹泣㭭␊ᾳ嫃㱽炻Ἀ⑳⯙娙╢妋婒㚫▘ 3 ⹎㚱⎴⯭㮹嫃忶炻Ữ␊ᶨᾳ- ㆹⒼὪ岒䔹Ἀ⑳㚱ℯ嫃忶炻ỮὪ゛⎴Ἀ䡢娵䔒炻␊ᾳ 4 ⯙Ụ᷶ ℯ䲨抬炻Ὢ⑒烎 5 ⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉ℯ䲨抬ˤ 6 㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉䔞㗪℞⮎㱽⛀㚱Ṣ倗䴉忶㴰旚嗽娊⓷炻Ὢ⑒烎 7 ⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉ℯ拗ˤ 8 㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉湍⃰ 䓇Ἂ䓐暣悝▭⼊⺷炻ㆹ゛䛯ᶳἈ䔞㗪㚱ℯấ⍫冯炻⤪㝄⍣ 9 B6/4507 炻ㆹ゛⓷ᶳἊ㚱ℯ⎴Ἀ⁦忶⃰ ↢׀烎 10

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉㚱炻㇨ẍἊ㚱c 䓨ㆹ⑳ˤ 1

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉Ὢ炻Ἀ悥㚱䛯忶׀◃炻䔞㗪炻Ὢ⑒烎 12

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉ℯ拗ˤ 13

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉Ἀ␊ᾳc 䓨ㆹ⑳␊ᾳemail 炻炷English Spoken 炸Ὢ⑒⯙ὪἈ㚫 14

㓞⇘▭e mail 烎 15

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉䔞Ὢ⎓ 㱽⹕e mail 炻Ὢ炻ℯ拗ˤ 16

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉␊⹎␩嫃炻Ἀ夳⇘Ἂ娙炻␊ᾳemail Ἂ䓐劙㔯㑘⮓炻Ἂ␊⹎嫃⇘ 17

Ⱦ炷English Spoken 炸ȿ炻夳⇘␊ᾳ䫔Ḵ㭝␊ᾳ嫃㱽烎 18

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ⓖ炻Ⓖˤ 19

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉␊ᾳ悥Ὢ℞⮎Ἀ⑳䔞㗪ᾳ- ⍣⇘10 㚰炻␊ᾳ悥ὪἈ⑳▭䛯㱽♇▭炻Ὢ 20

⑒烎 21

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉ℯ拗ˤ 2

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉Ἀ╢嫱Ṣὃ娆81 㭝炻⯙娙㴰旚嗽ℯ⚆ㅱ⇘␊ᾳ暣悝▭炻ỮὪㆹ⑳╢䛯 23

䔒㴰旚嗽ᶨỵ⏛⃰ 䓇╢⋗⟙䓨ᶲ⎠▭暣悝塷朊炻ㆹ⑳夳⇘Ἂ娙10 㚰6 嘇Ὢㇻ䔒䓨 24

湍⃰ 䓇▭炻␊ᾳἈ䞍Ⓖ䞍烎 25

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉␊ᾳㆹⒼ䞍忻炻⚈䁢䓐暣娙炻ㆹⒼ䞍忻ˤ 26

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉⌛Ὢ湍⃰ 䓇ᷳ ⼴ℯ⎴Ἀ嫃䔒烎ㆾ侭⎴Ἀ⑳Ṍẋ䔒烎 27

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉侴⭞Ⓖ姀⼿ˤ 28

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉⚈䁢ⷠ 䎮⛘炻␊ᾳὪἈ⑳斄㲐▭⛘㕡炻⤪㝄Ἂ⮓␿email 䓨㴰旚炻㴰 29

旚㚱⚆央Ἂ▭娙炻Ἀ⑳ㅱ娚䞍▭炻Ὢ⑒烎 30

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ὢ炻⎴❳ㆹ⑳炷English Spoken 炸ㅱ娚Ὢ暣悝⚆央׀◃炻Ὢˤ 31

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉ㆹⒼὪ娙Ἂ⑳ℯ⚆央炻ㆾ侭Ὢ⑒湍⃰ 䓇冒⶙倥␿ℯ⎴Ἀ嫃炻ỮὪㆹ婿Ἀ 32

⎒⎗ẍ⸓⇘ㆹ⑳▭Ὢ⑒⯙Ὢ␩炻Ἀ⬴ℐℯ倥忶湍⃰ 䓇⎴Ἀ嫃㚱䫼㟰炻Ὢ⑒␩烎 3

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉ℯ拗ˤ 34

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉⏛⃰ 䓇㴰旚嗽▘朊炻䛯ᶳἈ㚫Ⓖ㚫姀⼿㚱ℯᾳ␩▭⮵娙炻Ἂ⯙娙Ἂ⎴湍 35 ⃰ 䓇嫃␿炻℞⮎Ἂ⎗ẍ⎹⯳⬯会炷English Spok en 炸ㆾ侭⊆ⶍ嗽炷English 36

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本謄本由E piq 編製 Spoken 炸㈽姜▭炻⤪㝄ㆹ␩⎴Ἀ嫃炻㚫Ⓖ㚫Ẍ⇘⊦䔒崟Ἀ▭姀ㅞ炻湍⃰ 䓇㚱ℯ⎴ 1 Ἀ嫃忶栆Ụ▭◊烎 2 ⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉䛇Ὢℯˤ 3 㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉㖶䘥ˤ⎎⢾⍰Ὢᶨ┚⇵㱽⛀㚱ℯ㈡Ⅾ忶▭⓷柴炻⤪㝄ㆹ⑳䛯䔒F4/1 14 4 枩炻塷朊⤪㝄䛯9 溆52 ↮炻␊⹎⯙㍸⇘⍰ὪἈ炻⯙娙ˬ ㆹ゛炷English 5 Spoken 炸ᶨ㫉䫔ᶨ㛇炷English Spoken 炸䈑㕁ὪⒼὪ⼿⇘栏⓷␴⇵㱽⛀▭㈡ 6 Ⅾ⃰ 军⎗ẍἧ䓐烎䔞㗪␊ᾳὪἈ斄㲐▭⛘㕡炻Ὢ⑒烎 7 ⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉ℯ拗ˤ 8 㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉⚈䁢℞⮎䔞㗪Ἀ- ⇘10 㚰炻Ἀ悥䞍忻䇕⍾Ⓖ⇘▭炻Ὢ⑒烎 9 ⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ὢ炻ℯ拗炻℞⮎▘昋㗪⶚䴻䇕⍾␿娙Ἂ䫔Ḵ㈡Ὢ⎗ẍ䓐␊ᾳ⎓ 旣䅫檀┚▭䘤 10

㲉先炻侴⭞ㆹ⑳䇕⍾▭Ὢⶴ㛃Ἂ忋䫔ᶨ㈡悥天㎃❳䓨ㆹ⑳⎾◃ˤ 1

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉␩Ἀ夳⇘ỽ⃰ 䓇╢ᶳỶ⯙娙ˬ㗗䘬˭炻ᷳ ⼴1 0 溆12 ↮炻Ἀ天㯪䭉䎮嗽 12

▭湶䴻䎮㞍䔒┚䲨抬炻䛯ᶳὪ⑒冲㱽⛀㚱㈡忶炻Ὢ⑒烎 13

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ⓖ炻Ⓖˤ 14

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉䭉䎮嗽㚨⼴㚱ℯ㍸ὃ㚱斄▭䲨抬䓨Ἀ烎 15

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉㚱炻Ἂ㚱- ㅱ娚ㆹ⑳㚱ℯ⏰Ṍ忶烎ㅱ娚Ἀ⑳┚屯㕁ᶨ⭂㚱␊ấ炻Ὢˤℯ⏨烎 16

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉ㆹ⑳䛯Ⓖ⇘炻⤪㝄Ἀ㚱▭娙悥⎗ẍ娙䔒䓨ㆹ⑳䞍╢怲⹎ˤ⯙䬿冲㱽⛀㈡ 17

Ⅾ␿炻℞⮎悥ℯ◊旣㬊Ἂ㎃忶ᶨ㈡㕘▭炻ᷣ 天Ὢ拊▭⓷柴炻Ὢ⑒烎侴䔞㗪⯙悥ℯ㰢 18

⭂␩⍣ 炻⎗Ⓖ⎗ẍ␩嫃烎 19

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ⓖˤ 20

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉ㆹ⑳ℵ䛯䔒10 㚰- ∃ㇵ䛯⇘10 㚰2 嘇炻ㆹ゛⎴Ἀ䛯䔒Ἀ⎴ỽ⺢㤕⃰ 21

䓇▭⮵娙炻䫱Ἀ⎗ẍ妋慳ᶨᶳ炻Ἀ⍣A2/1 9 炻␊ᾳὪἈ⎴Ἂᶨ⮵ᶨ▭⮵娙炻⯙Ⓖ 2

╢ᾳ⣏佌䳬▘⹎▭炻Ἀ姀⼿┯烎1 A2/1 9 炻ㆹ䚠ᾉἈ⚆栏忶␊┚▭⮵娙炻Ὢ⑒烎 23

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉ℯ拗ˤ 24

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉ỽ⃰ 䓇╢1 9 ␊⹎㍸⇘炻Ἂ娙ˬㆹ゛⓷㶭㤂㖊䃞⯭㮹奢⼿炷English 25

Spoken 炸␩⣏シ夳炻䫔Ḵˣ䫔ᶱ㛇㚫⏎㓡䓐2.5m ⍂▭ᷕ 䨢㜧烎˭Ἂ▭シ⿅Ụ᷶ 26

Ὢ⚈䁢┚ᷕ 䨢㜧㭼庫⬱ℐ炻⎗ẍ⸛〗⇘┚⯭㮹炻Ὢ⑒␩嫃烎 27

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉ㆹ䔞㗪ⒼὪ␩娵䁢ˤ 28

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉Ἀ▭嫱Ṣὃ娆䫔79 㭝Ὢ㚱㍸忶▭炻Ἀ▭妋嬨⯙Ὢ娙炻℞⮎⯭㮹㶐Ὢ⮵ 29

䘤㲉先㜧▭德⃱䦳⹎㚱シ夳炻Ὢ⑒烎 30

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉ⒼὪ㶐Ὢ炻ㅱ娚娙℞ᷕ ᶨ㧋炻Ὢˤ 31

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉⌛Ὢ㎃⎍娙嫃炻Ἀ␊⹎⎴Ἂ妶婾▭㗪῁炻Ἀ▘ᾳ斄㲐℞⮎⯙Ὢᾳ德⃱炻 32

ⒼὪ▘ᾳ侸䅫▭⓷柴炻Ὢ⑒烎 3

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉ㆹ䔞℞㗪␩シ㚫炻⚈䁢ㆹ⑳䚖䘬Ὢ゛天ᾳ旣䅫⿏檀┚▭䈑㕁⎾◃炻Ὢˤ 34

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉㇨ẍ- ℞⮎Ἀ䔞㗪䞍忻Ⓖ⮹⯭㮹Ṏ悥Ὢ斄㲐␊ᶨ㧋◊炻ỽ䓇Ṏ悥␩嫃炻 35

ỮὪἈ⎴ㆹ⑳妋慳▭シ⿅⯙Ὢ娙炻Ἂ␊⹎嫃䵲䫔Ḵˣ䫔ᶱ㛇䓐␊ᾳ2.5m ⍂▭ᷕ 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十四天

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本謄本由E piq 編製 䨢㜧炻⯙ⒼὪ憅⮵侸䅫▭⓷柴烎 1 ⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉ℯ拗ˤ 2 㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉ỮὪἈᷳ ⼴㍍ỷ▭䫼㟰⯙娙ˬ⎗⏎㏝⇘悥Ὢ炷English Spoken 炸炻 3 ỮὪⒼὪ␩侸䅫- 侴ⒼὪ␩㖻䅫- ⒼὪ␩旣䅫烎˭Ⓖ⤥シ⿅炻Ὢˤ 4 ⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉㖻䅫炻ㆹ䔞℞㗪悥Ὢ⮓㖻䅫▭ˤ 5 㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉Ὢ炻sor y 炻Ⓖ⤥シ⿅炻ㇻ拗␿ˤ⌛ὪỤ᷶ Ἀ斄㲐悥Ὢ㖻䅫▭⓷柴烎 6 ⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉䳽⮵Ὢˤ 7 㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉⯙ⒼὪ▘ᾳ德⃱▭⓷柴炻Ὢ⑒␩嫃烎 8 ⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉ℯ拗ˤ 9 㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉Ἀ␊⹎ℯ⎴Ἂ嫃ˬ⤪㝄䛇Ὢ䛇㬋天旣䅫▭娙炻ᶵ⤪ㆹ⑳㎃␿ᷕ 䨢㜧烎˭ 10

Ἀℯ╢␊⹎⎴Ἂ妶婾␊ᶨ㧋◊ᾳ┶烎 1

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉⒎炻ᷕ 䨢㜧ᷳ ⇵9 㚰▘昋㗪⶚䴻⏎㰢␿炻ἊⒼ偗׀◆炻⌛Ὢ▘䧖䠔幓▭炻⚈䁢 12

⤪㝄䓐⇘▘ᾳ炻ㆹ⑳⶚䴻⤥㓦⽫炻Ⓖἧ- ㅱ娚Ⓖ㚫妶婾⇘侴⭞␊ᾳね- ᶵ忶℞⮎Ἂ 13

悥- 䯉╖嫃⯙Ὢᶳ朊悥㚱嫃炻Ἂ㶐Ὢ⎗ẍ䓐╢䫔Ḵˣᶱ㛇炻Ὢˤ 14

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉␩ㆹ夳⇘Ἂ⯙娙ˬ ℵ⓷ᶳ⺈炻⌛ἧἊ娙㚱炻ㆹ悥Ⓖ㑼ᾅᶨ⭂㚱旣䅫 15

׀˭ˤ嶇ỷἈ␊⹎嫃ˬ⼙㭝䇯炻䅺⬴冒⶙㚫䄬炻⎗ẍᶵ䓐cert ˭炻Ἀ▭嫱Ṣὃ娆 16

㚱妋慳▭炻Ἀ䫔79 㭝▘⹎炻⚈䁢Ἀᾳ嫃㱽⯙Ὢ娙炻⚈䁢℞⮎栏⓷⎴❳㈧彎⓮⶚䴻 17

慵墯⎴Ἀ嫃ℯcert ▭⇞⹎炻㇨ẍἈ╢␊⹎⃰ ⎴Ἂ嫃ˬᶵ䓐cert ˭炻Ὢ⑒烎 18

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉ℯ拗ˤ 19

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉ỮὪἈ⎴Ⓖ⎴シ炻⚈䁢ㆹ⑳⇅⇅䛯▭㗪῁炻ㆹ⑳悥奢⼿⤥⣯⿒炻ὪἈ冒 20

⶙㍸ᶵ䓐cert ᾳ┶烎 21

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ὢ炻Ἀ- ⚈䁢℞⮎䔞℞㗪ㆹ⑳ᶨ㖑⶚䴻Ὢ㉿⇘朊䲭俛䅙⯙娙ˬἈ溆妋Ὢ天㉿ỷ 2

娙ᶨ⭂天㚱cert 炻天㚱▘┚⃰ 军˭- ⌛ὪἊ娙㏝Ⓖ⇘⯙Ⓖ屟彼♇炻␩ㆹ⑳⯙ὪⒼ 23

⤥䲦䳸╢␊ᾳ␩▭ね⼊炻⌛Ὢ娙Ἀ晾䃞Ὢℯᶨᾳ㧁㸾娙天㯪ᾳ旣䅫⸦⣂炻⤪㝄Ἀℯ 24

cert Ἀ⯙Ⓖ屟彼♇炻␩⯙㚫 㺗ᶵ⇵炻⯙屟- 㚨⼴⯙㏝Ⓖ⇘ᶨ┚旣䅫⿏檀┚▭䘤 25

㲉先ˤ 26

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉ㆹ㚱⽭天天Ἀ妋慳炻⚈䁢Ἀᾳ嫃㱽娙炻ᷳ ⇵嫃␿ℯcert ␊㧋◊炻Ụ᷶ 27

悥ℯ㚠朊▭䲨抬炻Ὢ⑒烎 28

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉㚠朊. .

29

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉⌛ὪἈ┚WhatsAp ⹎悥ℯ嫃炻Ṏ悥ℯemail 嫃▭炻Ὢ⑒烎 30

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉ℯˤ 31

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉Ὢ⌛Ὢ⎋嫃⎋岈炻␊㧋◊悥Ὢ烎 32

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉栆Ụ炻Ὢˤ⚈䁢Ἂℯ␊ᶨᾳ⎓ -- ▘ᾳ㱽ἳ- ⌛ὪἊ▘ᾳ天㯪炻␩ㆹ⑳⯙㚫奢 3

⼿Ἀ⤪㝄Ἀ㚱⻝cert 炻␩℞⮎Ὢ⑒悥ẋ堐⇘. .

34

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉⤪㝄㟡㒂Ἀ␩嫃㱽炻⌛Ὢ⬷㤕ㅱ娚⽆Ἦ悥ℯ㍸ὃ忶ảỽ䘤㲉先㜧侸䅫▭ 35

cert 䓨㱽⛀䛯ᾳ┶炻Ὢ⑒烎 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十四天

38

本謄本由E piq 編製 ⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉ℯˤ 1 㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉ㆹ゛Ἀ妋慳ᶨ⹎炻␊ᾳἈ╢嫱Ṣὃ娆悥㚱妋׀◆炻79.5 㭝炻⚈䁢攳㟰 2 昛娆▘昋ㆹ⑳Ὢ㍸忶炻Ἀ㚦䴻╢Ἀ⎴Ἂ▭⮵娙塷朊嫃␿娙ˬ⼙▘昋㗪Ⓖ⤥⼙⼿␩ 3 㳩炻䛇Ὢ䅺侸┚炻夳⇘叿䀓˭炻Ἀ姀⼿␊ᾳ嫃㱽烎 4 ⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉侴⭞䛯䔒炻Ὢˤ 5 㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉Ὢ炻侴ㆹ嫃▘昋炻ㆹṎ悥⤥⮷⽫炻ㆹ娙Ἀ⎗傥㚱妋慳▭␊ᶨ㧋◊烎 6 ⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉ℯ拗ˤ 7 㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉ㆹ⑳⤪㝄䛯䔒7 9 炷5 炸␊ᶨ⹎炻Ἀ⎗Ⓖ⎗ẍ䓐␊ᾳ㨇㚫悥妋慳ᶳἈ㊯䵲 8 ▭Ὢ┚Ḅ◊烎 9 ⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ὢ炻⤪㝄Ἀ䛯䔒⍇㛔▘ᾳWhatsAp ⮵娙▘ᾳ炻⎗傥Ὢㆸᾳㆹ⑳⎓  10

炷English Spoken 炸炻⌛Ὢ娙䛇㬋▘ᾳ. .

1

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉A2/1 9 ˤ 12

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉⤥ˤὪˤ 13

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉㚱㡅䇯▭ˤ 14

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉℞⮎Ὢ㚱┚䇯㭝ㆹ㍸ὃ␿䓨Ἂ炻Ὢ䓨Ἂ⍫侫⯙娙ˬ℞⮎␊ᾳᶾ䓴ᶲὪ㚱ᶨ┚⎓ 15

旣䅫⿏檀┚▭䘤㲉先˭䓨Ἂ炻⚈䁢Ἂ䔞℞㗪炻⤪㝄Ἀ㑕⇘㡅䇯䛯炻Ἀ⯙㚫夳⇘Ἂ䔞 16

℞㗪Ὢ䅺␿ᶨ昋炻䃞⼴⯙㚫- Ⓖ䞍Ἀ㑕. .

17

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉ㆹ⑳⎗ẍ㑕㡅䇯䓨Ἀ䛯ˤ 18

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉⎗ẍ炻⎗ẍ炻⎗ẍˤ 19

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉䫔ᶨ㡅䇯ˤ 20

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ⓖ娚㗺ˤ 21

炷㑕㓦䞕䇯炸 2

˳ 炷English Spoken 炸炷ˬ⤛倚烉Ὢ炻␊ᾳ⯙Ὢㆹ⑳▭䈑㕁炻ㆹ⑳⯙  ᶨᾳ旚䀓▭㷔 23

娎ˤἈ⎗ẍ夳⇘冒⶙Ὢ㚫䄬▭ˤ⤪㝄Ἀ⮵ㆹ⑳▭䓊⑩㚱冰嵋炻␩婳╢旧慴⶜⶜倗䴉 24

ㆹ炻ㆹ⯙㚫䁢Ἀ㍸ὃ㚨Ἓ▭㓗㎜ˤ˭炸˴ 25

炷䞕䇯㑕㓦⬴䔊炸 26

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉⒎炻Ὢˤ 27

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉Ἀ␊ᾳˬ⼙▘昋Ⓖ⤥␩㳩˭炻Ὢ䛯⬴␊㡅䇯军嫃▭炻Ὢ⑒烎 28

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉ℯ拗ˤ⚈䁢ㆹⶴ㛃Ἂ- ㆹᶳ朊⍇Ἦ⌛Ὢ␊⹎⶚䴻㚱妋慳ˤ 29

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉ℵ句ˤ 30

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ὢ炻␩℞⮎栆Ụ␩炻ᷳ ⼴ㆹ⼴朊⯙⶚䴻娙ˬἈⒼ⤥␩㳩˭炻℞⮎⯙Ὢ゛Ἂ- Ἀ 31

柕⃰ 㚫䛯⇘Ἂ䅺ᷳ ⼴⯙䄬␿炻␩ㆹ⑳ⶴ㛃Ἂ叿⇘ᾳ䀓炻䃞⼴Ἂ⍰冒⶙㚫䄬⼿䔒炻␩ 32

ㆹㆸᾳシ⿅⯙Ὢ␩ˤ 3

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉⌛ὪἈ▭嫃㱽Ὢ⑒Ἀ゛Ἂ⼙㡅䇯Ὢ䅺侸┚烎 34

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉ℯ拗ˤ 35

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉Ἀ⤪㝄ℵ䛯句⍣炻ㆹ夳⇘Ἀ㚱send ⣂ℑ㡅䇯▭ˤ 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十四天

39

本謄本由E piq 編製 ⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉ℯ拗ˤ 1 㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉ㆹ⑳㚱ᶨ- ㆹ婿ㆹ⑳㑕❳⎎⢾ᶨ㡅䇯炻⎗傥㚫㶭㤂┚Ἀ▭嫃㱽ˤ␊┚Ὢ 2 Ἀ冒⶙㏝׀炻Ὢ⑒⏨烎 3 ⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ὢ炻悥Ὢᶲ炷English Spoken 炸▘⹎㏝ˤ 4 炷㑕㓦䞕䇯炸 5 炷䞕䇯㑕㓦⬴䔊炸 6 㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉Ἀsend ␊㡅䇯↢♇炻ἈὪ゛嫃⑑◊烎 7 ⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉⯙Ὢ娙䓨Ἂ倥ㆹ⑳䓐㖶䀓䅺炻␩Ἂ⎗傥䛇Ὢ㚫叿炻⚈䁢Ἀ㊩临㚱䀓䅺Ἂ炻ỮὪ 8 Ἂᶨℯ␿炻Ἂ⯙㚫⌛⇣䄬␿炻⯙Ⓖ㚫咻⺞ᶲ⍣炻⤪㝄⤥Ụᶨ⻝䘥䳁Ἀ⑒㚫ㆸ⻝䅺 9 㗺ˤ 10

㜄㶎゛➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉ㆾ侭⤪㝄䘤㲉先␊ᾳ⓷柴Ἀ妋慳␿溆妋Ἀ␩嫃炻ㆹ悥ⷞἈ⍣䛯␿ᶨ┚ 1

䔞㗪▭WhatsAp 炻ㆹ婿ㆹ⑳悥Ⓖ剙⣒⣂▭㗪攻⍣妶婾␊ᾳ⓷柴炻ㆹ␩嫃℔Ⓖ℔ 12

忻烎䔞㗪⤥㖶栗Ἀ⎴❳℞Ṿ⯭㮹悥⯙␊ᶨ㧋◊㚱㑼ㄪ炻⬷㤕⎴❳泣㭭⬷㤕⯙Ụ᷶ Ἂ 13

⑳嫃㱽⯙Ὢ䄁柕䃓Ⓖ叿▭炻侴Ἂ⑳Ṏ悥⎴Ἀ嫃ℯ嫱㚠▭炻㚨⼴䲦丷␿ᶨ廒炻⎗傥Ὢ 14

㎃␿⎎⢾ᶨ㈡▭䘤㲉先炻ỮὪ⥳䳪悥Ὢ䓐䘤㲉先㜧♇⮩炻➢㕤Ἂ⑳悥Ⓖ偗㎃炻侴Ṏ 15

悥㍸ὃⒼ⇘℞Ṿ㕡㟰炻Ἀ⑳悥ℯℵ⎴Ἂ⑳䲦丷炻␩嫃┙Ⓖ┙烎 16

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉┙ˤ 17

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉Ἀ㚱ℯ◊゛墄⃭ 烎 18

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉ㆹ㶐Ὢ゛墄⃭ ⯙Ὢ娙╢ㆹ⑳㱽⛀▘ᾳ䭬⚵塷朊炻ㆹ⑳⶚䴻䚉≃䇕⍾␿ˤ␩⎴❳ 19

➢㕤⌛Ὢ⎗傥Ὢㆸᾳ楁㷗ㆾ侭Ὢᾳ㱽⇞Ὢℯ␊ᶨᾳ⎗ẍ惵⎰⇘⸓ㆹ⑳⍣䇕⍾ᶨ┚天 20

㯪Ἂ⑳⍣㎃䔒䓨ㆹ⑳炻␩ㆹ⑳デ奢Ὢ䃉⣰♱ˤ 21

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉ㆹ婿㚱⤥⣂⯭㮹䎮㇨䔞䃞⯙奢⼿抒␿䘤㲉先ὪⒼ┙ˤ 2

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ὢˤ 23

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉㚱┚Ṣㆾ侭㚫奢⼿Ἀ⑳ℯ⸓Ἂ⑳䚉≃⍣䇕⍾㎃ᶨ┚ℯ␩㖻䅫▭䈑㕁炻ㆹ 24

悥゛䫱Ἀ⚆ㅱᶨᶳ␊ᾳ嫃㱽炻Ἀ㚱ℯ◊゛墄⃭ 烎 25

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉␊ᶨ㕡朊℞⮎⌛Ὢㆹⶴ㛃Ḁ␊ᾳ㨇㚫嫃䔒炻⯙Ὢ娙㛔幓ㆹ⑳冒⶙悥Ὢỷ䵲▘ 26

⹎炻ㆹ⑳悥㑼⽫㚫Ⓖ㚫叿䀓炻⌛ὪⒼὪ娙ㆹ⑳ẋⒼẋ堐⯭㮹炻ㆹ⑳冒⶙㛔幓悥Ὢ炻 27

␩㇨ẍㆹ⑳㟡㛔⌛Ὢἄ䁢㘖忂ⶪ㮹▘ᾳ奺⹎炻⯙Ὢ奢⼿䘤㲉先ὪⒼ怑⎰炻㇨ẍㆹ⑳ 28

ᶨ攳⥳ᶲả⯙⶚䴻⍣䇕⍾␊㧋◊炻␩䃉⣰⯙Ὢ␊ᶨᾳね⼊⯙⤥Ụ柕⃰ ㇨嫃▭炻㇨㚱 29

Ὢ䃉婾⇞⹎ᶲˣ㱽ἳᶲ悥ℯᶨᾳ⎗ẍ旣㬊⇘Ἂ⑳⍣两临ἧ䓐␊㧋◊炻ℵ≈❳⤥Ụ⮳ 30

㖍▭嫱ὃ㇨嫃炻℞⮎㤕䓴ὪⒼὪ悥ẚ䓐䵲␊㧋◊⍣ 炻℞⮎悥Ὢᶨᾳ㘖念炻嬲␿⯙ 31

Ὢㆹ⑳╢➢㕤␊ᾳ㡅ẞ⸽ᶳ炻ㆹ⑳㟡㛔㱽⛀Ὢℯ彎㱽⍣ℵ䇕⍾㚜⣂㎃⇘▘┚䘤㲉先- 32

3 㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉⯭㮹Ṏ悥㚱⎎⢾ᶨᾳ嫃㱽炻⯙Ὢ娙℞⮎⎰䲬ℯ妪㖶䓐⑑◊䈑㕁⮩䨿炻Ὢ 34

⑒烎 35

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉⤪㝄䛯▘ấ⎰䲬ᾳ朊- ⌛Ὢ␩⣂ấ⯙ㅱ娚ℯ⮓▭ˤ 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十四天

40

本謄本由E piq 編製 㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉㇨ẍ㱽⛀Ὢ㚱䨢攻天㯪㈧彎⓮䓐ᶨ┚㚜≈⬱ℐ▭䈑㕁▭炻Ἂ⑳Ὢ␩嫃炻 1 㚱⯭㮹Ὢ㚱┚␩▭シ夳炻Ἀ㖶䘥炻Ὢ⑒烎 2 ⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ⓖˤ 3 㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉侴Ἂ⑳Ṏ悥㚱Ṣ奢⼿㕘㱽⛀ㆾ侭Ἀ⑳㕘▭䭉⥼㚫Ὢℯ⎴⯭㮹嫃㶭㤂炻℞ 4 ⮎㈧彎⓮㚱㍸嬘╢䫔Ḵ㛇廱䓐ᶨ┚℞Ṿ䈑㕁▭炻⌛ὪἊ⑳Ụ᷶ ╢妶婾塷朊Ὢ㚱嫃忶 5 ▭炻Ὢ⑒烎 6 ⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉⌛ὪἊ⑳ⒼὪ娙㍸嬘炻㚨⼴悥Ὢ䓙ㆹ⑳⍣䇕⍾彼♇▘㧋◊炻⯙ⒼὪ娙Ἂ⑳㍸ 7 嬘炻⤪㝄ㆹ⑳Ⓖ䇕⍾炻Ἂ⑳Ὢℓ⹏悥䓐㗺▘┚␩▭䘤㲉先ˤ 8 㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉㚱㍸嬘忶炻䔞䃞Ἀ夳⇘ᾳ⮵娙Ὢ㚱㍊妶忶Ὢ䓐ᶨ┚ᷕ 䨢㜧▭炻␩㚱┚⯭ 9 㮹⎗傥㚫奢⼿⤪㝄ℐ悐悥䓐␿ᷕ 䨢㜧⎗傥㚫ℯ␩⣏⓷柴炻⮵㕤␊ᾳ㊯㍏炻Ἀ溆㧋⍣ 10

⚆ㅱ烎 1

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉ẍㆹ⑳䔞℞㗪奢⼿- ⌛Ὢㆹ⑳䎮妋▘䧖炻Ὢ⚈䁢ㆹ⑳ᷳ ⇵㚱妶婾忶炻⯙Ὢ娙 12

  1. 5m

▘┚Ὢ⋲德㖶▭ᷕ 䨢㜧炻⯙ⒼὪㆹ⑳⽫䚖ᷕ ⎗ẍ- ⌛Ὢ▘ᬷ 䚖䘬Ἂ悥ⒼὪ 13

♇ㆃ埵ㆹ⑳炻⚈䁢┚Ṣ㖻㍍⍿㚱⃱炻ỮὪㆹ⑳▭䚖䘬Ὢ旣䅫炻悥ⒼὪ⚆ㅱ䵲ㆹ⑳▭ 14

天㯪炻㇨ẍㆹ⑳⯙ℯ㍉䲵Ἂ䓐␊┚2.5m ▭ᷕ 䨢㜧炻⚈䁢Ἂ德⃱炻␩┚⯭㮹⯙㚫 15

奢⼿⌛Ὢℯ␩彃劎炻⚈䁢枆ㆸ⎗傥ᶨ⸜㗪攻炻␩Ἂ⑳奢⼿⤥彃劎炻㇨ẍἊ悥⤥゛䓐 16

ᶨ┚⋲德㖶炻ỮὪㆹ⑳ᾳ䚖䘬Ὢᷣ 天㶐Ὢ嫃䵲▘ᾳ旣䅫⿏ˤ 17

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉⎗Ⓖ⎗ẍ␩嫃烎Ἀ⑳ℯ⍣䞼䨞忶炻⤪㝄䛇Ὢㆹ⑳ⒼὪ嫃䵲德⃱▘┚ᷕ 䨢 18

㜧炻ㆹ⑳嫃䵲䓐♇㭷ḼⰌ悥抒ᶨ⟲▘┚ᷕ 䨢㜧炻ㇻ搧䵲▭㗪῁炻Ụ᷶ 䔞㗪侴⭞䛯 19

䔒炻⯙䛇Ὢℯ⍣娛䳘␩䞼䨞忶炻⤪㝄䓐␿▘┚ᷕ 䨢㜧侴Ⓖ䓐䘤㲉先炻␊ᾳ䫔ᶨ炻⯙ 20

㚫㚱ᾅ嬟䨿攨▭㓰㝄炻侴Ụ᷶ Ṏ悥㚱ᾳ嫃㱽⯙Ὢ䓐▘┚ᷕ 䨢㜧Ὢ㭼庫旣䅫▭炻Ụ᷶ 21

⯙ℯ␊ᾳ怠枭ㆾ侭⯭㮹Ṏ悥ℯ␊ᾳ怠㑯炻␩嫃┙Ⓖ┙烎 2

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ὢ炻⚈䁢Ἂ⑳Ⓖ㍍⍿ˤ 23

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉⚈䁢怲ᾳⒼ㍍⍿烎 24

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉⬷㤕ˤ 25

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉ㆹ婿ㆹ⑳╢␊ᾳ柴䚖ᶲ檀悥䓐␿䚠䔞▭㗪攻炻Ἀ悥奢⼿Ἀ㚱嵛⣈▭㨇㚫 26

⍣堐徘Ἀ▭䩳⟜炻Ὢ⑒烎 27

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉嵛⣈炻⣂嫅ˤ 28

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉⤥炻ㆹ嶇ỷ゛⎴Ἀ嫃㢂䵚▭⓷柴炻Ἀ嫱Ṣ昛徘㚠62 㭝炻Ἀ娙ᶲảᷳ ⼴ 29

冲䭉⥼㚫⶚䴻⬴ㆸ␿㢂㝞䈑㕁▭⮑㈡炻Ἀ┙┙ ᷣ ⷕ▭㗪῁炻ㆹ゛⓷ᶳἈ炻Ἀ㚱ℯ 30

Ḯ妋忶ᶲả㱽⛀⮵㕤㢂䵚旣䅫㚱┚⑑◊㰢嬘ㆾ侭㚱┚⑑◊▭㰢⭂烎 31

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉ㆹ⑳ᶲảᷳ ⇵炻℞⮎Ἂ㢂䵚⶚䴻Ὢ㈡㟠␿▭炻Ṏ悥Ὢ倚䧙Ὢ㚱ᶨᾳ㧁㸾Ὢ天 32

嶇ˤ 3

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉Ἀ䞍Ⓖ䞍忻℞⮎╢Ἀᶲảᷳ ⇵⸦ᾳ㚰炻╢2024 ⸜6 㚰17 嘇ⶍ䦳㚫 34

嬘炻泣㭭℞⮎ᶨ㖑⻟婧␿⬷㤕暨天思⽆⯳⬯会˪ἄ㤕⬰⇯AP

˫▭旣䅫天㯪㍸ 35

ὃ嫱㚠炻␊ᾳἈ⼴Ἦ䞍炻Ὢ⑒烎 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十四天

41

本謄本由E piq 編製 ⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ὢ炻䞍忻ˤ 1 㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉Ἀᶲảᷳ ⼴炻Ἀ奢⼿␊㕡朊▭夷⭂㚱ℯ塓思⽆烎 2 ⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉㚱▭ˤ 3 㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉Ἀᶲả▭㗪῁㚱ℯ天㯪忶⬷㤕㍸ὃ▘┚旣䅫嫱㚠烎 4 ⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉㚱ˤ 5 㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉Ἀ▭㚠朊⚆央䓨ㆹ⑳⥼⒉㚫㚦䴻嫃忶娙Ἀ㚱▭炻ㆹ゛⓷ᶳ␊ᾳἈὪⒼὪ 6 䡢娵烎 7 ⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ὢˤ 8 㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉⚈䁢嫱㒂ㆹ⑳夳⇘2024 ⸜10 㚰28 嘇炻⌛ὪἈ ␿ᾳ⸦㚰ᷳ ⼴炻ICU 9 ♇ⶉ㞍炻Ἀ㷔娎忶ᾳ㢂䵚▭旣䅫⿏▭炻Ἀ▭嫱Ṣὃ娆䫔68 㭝炻⤪㝄ㆹ⑳䛯䔒炻Ἀ 10

娙䭉⥼㚫䔞㗪⯙ℯ╢䎦⟜㳦Ṣᶨ滲⍣䛯␊ẞḳ炻Ὢ⑒烎 1

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ὢˤ 12

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉ㆹ悥゛䓨㨇㚫Ἀ妋慳ᶨᶳ炻㢂䵚Ụ᷶ 悥Ὢ㚱┚⯭㮹㍸忶▭ḳね炻Ἀ悥㚱 13

斄㲐ˤἊ⑳♇㷔娎▭㗪῁炻Ἀ⑳㚱ℯ㨇㚫ᶨ滲⍣㍊妶␊ẞḳ炻ㆾ侭Ἀ⑳㚱ℯ㨇㚫⍣ 14

⍫≈烎 15

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉ㆹ⑳彼ⶍ炻㇨ẍㆹ⑳ℯ╢䎦⟜炻Ὢˤ 16

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉ㆹ⑳䛯ᶳF4/1 53 炻␊ᾳὪ2024 ⸜- ␊⹎䛯2024 ⸜10 㚰28 17

嘇炻⤪㝄ㆹ⑳䛯10 溆48 ↮㚱ᾳ⼙䇯▭炻␊ᾳὪ湶䴻䎮䘤↢♇▭炻Ὢ⬷䤷AL 湶䴻 18

䎮炻Ὢ⑒烎Ἀ䡢⭂␊ᾳ⯙ὪἊ䘤↢♇▭妲〗炻Ὢ⑒烎 19

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ὢˤ 20

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉Ἂ䘤␿㡅⼙䇯↢♇炻Ἂ䃞⼴␩嫃ᾳ┶炻Ἂ娙ˬ䌐䩳⮑㞍䳬晐㨇㉥㞍㢂䵚 21

旣䅫ˤ˭␊ᾳ⼙䇯ㆹ⑳䫔ᶨ㖍㑕忶炻Ⓖℵ㑕炻╢A98 ▘⹎ˤ 2

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ὢ炻Ⓖˤ 23

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉ỮὪ╢ICU ㍸ὃ䓨ㆹ⑳▭⼙䇯炻ㆹ⑳⎗攳㟰昛娆Ἀ悥╢⹎炻Ụ᷶ Ὢ㚱Ⓖ 24

⎴▭炻⎴湶䴻䎮㉵↢♇▘㡅䇯炻ᾳ攟⹎㚱Ⓖ⎴炻㇨ẍ夳⇘▭ね㱩悥Ⓖ⎴▭炻Ἀ䞍忻 25

ㆹ嫃䵲┚⑑◊炻Ὢ⑒烎 26

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉䞍忻ˤ 27

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉ㆹ嫃䵲⏡䄬▘ᶨ⹎ˤ 28

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉䞍忻ˤ 29

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉ㆹ゛Ἀ䡢娵ᶨᶳ炻⯙Ὢ䔞㗪Ἀ䞍Ⓖ䞍忻ⶉ㞍㗪῁炻℞⮎㢂䵚Ὢ㚱崭忶⋩ 30

䥺悥Ὢ䅫䅺侴Ὢ天塓⏡䄬炻␊ᶨ㧋◊䔞㗪Ἀ⑳䭉⥼㚫㚱ℯṢ䞍忻烎 31

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉⬴ℐℯṢ䞍忻ˤ 32

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉⚈䁢ㆹ╢WhatsAp 佌䳬塷朊炻Ἀ悥⸦䵲⻝䔞㗪㷔娎ᾳね㱩炻Ἀᷳ ⼴㚱 3

⓷ᾳ┶炻1 54 ㆹ⑳夳⇘炻ᶨ嶗℞⮎Ἀ㚱徥⓷▭炻Ἀ娙ˬἊ⑳㚫Ⓖ㚫↢䔒⟙⏲䓨ㆹ 34

⑳⭂Ὢㆹ⑳天冒⶙⮓⟙⏲烎˭ᷳ ⼴Ἀ夳⇘炻ˬ⮵ㆹ♇嫃炻ㆹ⑳悥天㚱䯉╖▭䲨抬炻 35

屣ḳ㖍⼴㚱Ṣ⓷炻check ␿┚⑑◊ᾳ䳸㝄˭炻䃞ᷳ ⼴Ἀᶵ ␩冒⶙嫃▭℞⮎炻䳸㝄 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十四天

42

本謄本由E piq 編製 Ὢ⎗ẍ旣䅫ὪⒼὪ⎰䎮ˤ嶇ỷἈẚ⓷ˬ䎦⛐䓐䵲▭⮩䨿䈑㕁㗗⏎⎗ẍ䓐烎˭嶇ỷㆹ 1 ⑳⯙Ὢ夳⇘῁厗⺢send ↢♇▭ᶨ┚ㅱ娚Ὢ䚠♇▭炻jpg 炻Ὢ⑒烎 2 ⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ⓖˤ 3 㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉ㆹ゛⓷ᶳ㚱Ἀ䴻忶␊┚▭㞍娊ᷳ ⼴炻㚱ℯṢ䓨ảỽ▭䲨抬Ἀ炻⍣姀抬䔒 4 䔞㗪ὪⒼὪ⎰㟤烎 5 ⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉␊ᶨ⇣ㆹⒼ姀⼿ˤ 6 㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉ㆹ⑳䞍忻╢ᷳ ⼴ℯ⸦侸炻⚈䁢冲⸜ㇻ␿⤥⣂㫉桐炻ᷳ ⼴▘⸜7 㚰⎴9 㚰 7 悥㚱⋩嘇桐䎫炻␩㎃␿┚㢂䵚▭炻ㆹ⑳倥嫱㚫悥嫃␿炻⤥⣂悥嫃␿炻┚㢂䵚㖶栗⛘ 8 Ὢ㶢刚␿㚱┚⯭㮹娙炻⎴❳▘ᾳὪ㭼庫⭡㖻夳⇘⭌⢾▭ね㱩炻⚈䁢⤥Ụㅱ娚Ὢℯ␩ 9 ⭮炻␊ᾳἈ䔞㗪䞍Ⓖ䞍忻␊ᾳね㱩烎 10

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉倱䛤䛯⇘▭炻Ⓖ炻䞍忻ˤ 1

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉ㆹ⑳夳⇘䔞㗪悥㚱Ṣ嫃忶炻⤪㝄ㆹ⑳䛯F4/1515 炻╢4 溆45 ↮炻㰇⃰ 12

䓇炻Ἀ夳⇘ᷳ ⇵悥㚱嫃炻Ἀ娙ˬㆹ⎒゛炷English Spoken 炸Ἀ⑳↢␿㢂䳁㛒烎 13

䡢ᾅ㢂䵚⬱ℐˤ˭嶇ỷ㚱┚㔯ẞˤ䃞ᷳ ⼴Jason Kong 炻㰇⃰ 䓇炻ˬ㇨㚱≈❳㢂㝞 14

⍲㢂䵚悥䫎⎰⬱ℐ㱽ἳ天㯪烎˭嶇ỷἈ嫃ˬㆹ⯙Ⓖ䞍㱽ἳ溆炻⊭Ⓖ⊭䵚ˤ˭Ἀ夳⇘ 15 ᷳ ⼴烎 16

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ⓖˤ 17

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉╢␊⹎ㆹ゛Ḯ妋炻℞⮎䔞㗪Ἀ⑳䞍Ⓖ䞍忻㢂䵚㚱ℯ㱽⭂▭天㯪烎 18

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉㚱炻ᶨ攳柕⑒嫃▘ᾳ. .

19

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉㚱ᾳA P ἄ㤕⬰⇯炻ㆹ⑳┙┙ℯ⸦侸ᷳ ⇵嫃忶炻Ὢ⑒烎 20

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ὢ炻Ἂ␊ᶨ⎍◊シ⿅Ὢ⚈䁢ㆹⒼὪⒼ䞍㱽ἳ炻Ὢㆸᾳ㢂䵚䯥▘⻝Form 5 ⊭Ⓖ 21

⊭㢂䵚炻⚈䁢Ἂ▘ᾳ- ▘ᾳ⎓㢂⎾◃炻␩℞⮎. .

2

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉㖶䘥ˤㆹ゛Ἀ⸓ᶨ⸓ㆹ⑳▭炻⯙Ὢ⤪㝄⤥⣂⯭㮹炻侴Ἀ悥䡢娵␿⯙Ὢ夳 23

⇘ㇻ桐ᷳ ⼴㎃␿┚㢂䵚炻▘ᾳ柷刚⎴❳Ụ᷶ ▘ᾳ⭮⹎悥⎴ᷳ ⇵㚱↢ℍ炻Ἀ⑳⯙␊ᶨ 24

㕡朊㚱ℯ⮯␊┚シ夳ㆾ侭␊┚㑼ㄪ⍵㗈䓨㈧彎⓮倥烎ᷳ ⼴Ἀ⑳㚱ℯ天㯪忶Ἂ ┚⑑ 25

◊␊烎昌␿ㆹ⑳夳⇘␊┚Ἀ⑳ᷳ 攻▭⮵娙ᷳ ⢾ˤ 26

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ὢ炻℞⮎Ἂ昌␿柷刚ᷳ ⢾炻⚈䁢ㇻ⬴桐╢⛘ᶳ⶚䴻➟␿┚䠶䇯炻␩ㆹ⑳⶚䴻Ὢ 27

㉶␿▘┚䠶䇯↢♇ᶨ㌥⯙㔋␿炻ㆹ⑳⯙㑼⽫Ἂ▘┚㢂䵚㟡㛔Ὢ傮炻ㆹ⑳⯙Ὢ天㯪 28

Ἂ炻ˬἈ⎗Ⓖ⎗ℐ悐㎃㗺Ἂ烎⯙ⒼὪ㶐Ὢ㎃ᶨ⾥ᶨ⾥炻␩㇨ẍㆹ⑳㑼⽫昌␿ᾳ旣䅫 29

⿏㚱ℯcert. 炻⎰Ⓖ⎰㧁㸾ᷳ ⢾炻⎴❳ㆹ⑳゛ᾳ央味䭬⚵⎗Ⓖ⎗ẍℐ㢇悥㎃㗺ℐ㕘 30

▘┚㢂䵚炻␩ㅱ娚⮵娙⎗傥㚱嫃⇘ˤ 31

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉ᷳ ⼴㰇⃰ 䓇Ἂ㚱⍣㈽姜▭炻Ὢ⑒烎 32

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ὢˤ 3

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉ỮὪ␊ᾳ⯙ὪἊ 炻ⒼὪἈ 烎 34

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉ℯ拗ˤ 35

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉␊ᾳㆹ⎗ẍ⓷Ἂ烎 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十四天

43

本謄本由E piq 編製 ⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉⎗ẍ⓷䔒Ἂ炻⚈䁢ㆹ⑳㑼⽫Ἂ㎃ᶨ⾥Ⓖ㎃ᶨ⾥炻℞Ṿ悥傮炻␩㇨ẍㆹ⑳⯙天忤 1 Ἂ⍣. .

2 㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉ỮὪ⇘ᷳ ⼴▘ᶱᾳ㚰悥忤Ⓖ⇘炻Ὢ⑒烎 3 ⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉ℯ拗ˤ 4 㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉⯙㢂䵚Ἀẚ㚱ℯ◊゛⎴ㆹ⑳墄⃭ 烎⌛ὪἈ⑳㚱ℯ 忶┚Ḅ◊℞Ṿ▭烎 5 ⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉ㆹ㶐Ὢ゛堐忼⯙Ὢ⚈䁢Ἂ⑳㚱㎃⇘ᶨ┚㢂䵚炻⍣㎃␿炻⤪㝄Ἂ⤥Ụ㚨⼴䓐ᶨ┚ 6 ὪⒼὪ⎓ 欂䚖㶟䎈␩▭ㇳ㱽⍣ ᶨᾳ␩㧋▭ね⼊⸽ᶳ炻ㆹ⑳⎒傥⣈⌛Ὢ奢⼿⤥䃉 7 ⣰炻⌛Ὢ⍇Ἦ╢ᾳ䚋䭉⇞⹎ Ⓖ⇘⎗ẍᾅ晄⇘␊┚欂䚖㶟䎈▭⓷柴ˤ 8 㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉㢂䵚ㆹ⑳嫃⬴ᷳ ⼴炻ㆹ゛⎴Ἀ嫃⎎⢾ᶨᾳἈ㚱䈥㴱- 㚱⍫冯忶▭⓷柴ˤ 9 ▘ᾳ㴰旚㯜仠▭䵕ᾖ⎴❳䲣䴙ᾳ斄攱⓷柴ˤ 10

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ⓖˤ 1

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉ㆹ゛䎮妋℞⮎㴰旚㯜仠ⶍ䦳▘ᾳ䳘䭨⎴❳䔞㗪Ἀ⑳▘ᾳ⍫冯⹎炻ㆹ⑳䛯 12

䔒⣏䵕ᾖⶍ䦳⎰䲬▘ᾳ₡䚖堐炻⤪㝄ㆹ⑳⍣F1 䛯101 炻Ἀ䛯6.2 ( a ) 枭炻ㆹ䎮妋 13

⯙Ὢᾳ⎰䲬ℏ⭡Ὢ冲㱽⛀⎴Ἂ⑳⁦炻Ἀ⎒Ὢ╢Ἀ㎃␿⯮ᷳ ⼴Ἀ⃰ ⍣䛯␊┚▭ℏ⭡ˤ 14

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ὢˤ 15

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉ỮὪἈ㚱娛䳘䔁シ忶⎰䲬▭㡅㫦炻Ὢ⑒烎␊┚ ┚⑑◊ⶍ䦳炻 ┚⑑◊ 16

ⶍ䦳ˤ 17

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉㚱炷English Spoken 炸㗺炻Ἀ娙ὪⒼὪ姀⼿㗺⯙㛒⽭⼿ˤ 18

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉⤪㝄ㆹ⑳䛯䫔6 枭炻2(a) ▭䫔6 夳Ⓖ夳⇘ᶳỶ烎␊⹎嫃␿炻␊ᾳ㯜仠 19

ⶍ䦳娎㯜ᷳ ⼴炻⯙㈡ᶲᶨ┚先㻧⎴❳㶟⎰劙㲍炻㇨㚱㯜仠悥天廱␿ 䘥昶䢂炻⤪㴱 20

⍲梚䓐㯜梇▭㯜仠⯙天䓐┚䃉㭺▭䢂㕁炻天≈䃉㭺嫱㖶ˤἈ夳⇘␊ᾳὪ䔞㗪▭天 21

㯪炻Ὢ⑒烎 2

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ⓖˤ 23

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉Ἀ悥䞍忻▭炻Ἀ㚱䞼䨞忶␊ᾳℏ⭡▭炻Ὢ⑒烎 24

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ⓖˤ 25

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉⤪㝄Ἀ䛯䔒䫔79 枩炻℞⮎⎰䲬ℏ⭡㡅㫦▭䫔13 㡅炻Ἀ句┚㚫䛯⇘ᾳ㯜 26

仠炻夳⇘冐㗪㯜仠ὃㅱᶳỶ▭⸦枭炻ⒼὪ炻ᶲ檀炻ᶲ檀炻Ὢˤ℞⮎Ụ᷶ ⎰䲬▭ℏ⭡ 27

⯙Ὢ娙㇨㚱㯜仠悥㎃▭炻⎴シ◃烎␊ᾳ悥ὪἈ▭䎮妋炻Ὢ⑒烎 28

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ὢˤ 29

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉ẚ㚱Ṏ悥嫃忶⯙Ὢ娙炻Ἀ夳⇘䛯䔒6.2 (a) 枭炻101 枩炻BQ018 ␊ 30

⹎炻ἈṎ悥㚱嫃忶娙天 ᾳ冐㗪㯜仠炻Ἀ䛯⇘柕⃰ 炻Ὢ⑒烎⤪㝄Ἀ䛯101 枩炻Ṏ悥 31

嫃忶娙╢F1 ▭6.2 (2) 枭炻➢㛔ᶲᾳ天㯪Ὢ攟Ὢᾖ墄㯜仠▭䞛⯶䳸㥳炻嶇ỷ(4) 32

▘⹎炻⯙Ὢ娙天慵㕘抒忶┚旚㯜炻ㆹ⑳夳⇘抒䢂炻Ἀ䞍忻Ὢ天 ␊┚ⶍ䦳炻Ὢ⑒烎 3

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉㚱炻㚱┚䚠▭ˤ 34

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉Ἀ䛯␿␊┚㡅㫦炻Ἀ悥䞍忻䔞㗪▘ᾳ婿㱽炻⯙Ὢ娙㚱ᾳ冐㗪㯜仠炻ỮὪ 35

⮯ᾳ冐㗪㯜仠㉮崘ᷳ ⼴炻㚫䓐ᾳ㴰旚㯜仠嬲ㆸ冐㗪梇㯜仠▭炻␊ᾳ⎴Ἀ▭䎮妋ὪⒼ 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十四天

4

本謄本由E piq 編製 Ὢᶨ㧋烎 1 ⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉ᶨ㧋ˤ 2 㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉ㆹ゛⓷ᶳἈ炻⚈䁢㚱ᶨᾳ⣏⭞斄㲐▭⛘㕡炻⯙Ὢ溆妋㚫䓐␿ᾳ㴰旚仠♇ 3  冐㗪梇㯜仠烎⚈䁢䫔ᶨ炻ㆹ⑳䞍忻℞⮎㚱㍸忶䓐ᶨ┚冐㗪▭㯜仠炻Ṏ悥㚱Ṣ嫃忶 4 ℞⮎Ὢ⎗ẍ䓐ᶨ┚举䵕ㆾ侭先▭䈑㕁 ᶨᾳ冐㗪㯜仠炻䔞㗪ᾳ 㱽⤪㝄天䓐ᾳ㴰旚 5 仠♇ 冐㗪㯜仠炻⍰天抒䢂炻天䡢ᾅ┚梇㯜▭Ḧ㶐炻䄏妰㴰旚㯜仠Ὢℯ暨天抒䢂׀ 6 ◃烎 7 ⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉␊ᾳㆹⒼ㶭㤂ˤ 8 㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉䔞㗪Ἀ⑳悥ℯ侫ㄖ忶␊ᶨ溆炻Ὢ⑒烎 9 ⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉ℯ侫ㄖ⇘ˤ 10

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉⌛Ὢ㎃⎍娙嫃炻䔞㗪℞⮎㱽⛀Ὢℯ斄㲐忶␊ᶨ枭ⶍ䦳ὪⒼὪㅱ娚 ⎴❳ 1

⎰Ⓖ⎰䎮▭炻Ἀ▭姀ㅞὪⒼὪ␩烎 12

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉⍰Ⓖ⎗ẍ娙ℯ斄㲐炻⌛Ὢㆹ⑳䔞⇅Ὢ婿Ⓖ⇘㚱ℯ␊ᾳⒼ⎰䎮⿏炻Ⓖ⎗ẍ娙Ⓖ斄 13

㲐▭ˤ 14

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉⚈䁢Ἀ⑳㚦䴻- ⤪㝄℔忻┚␩嫃炻Ἀ⑳㚦䴻侫ㄖ忶⇼昌┚ℯ暨天▭枭 15

䚖炻. .

16

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉ℯ拗ˤ 17

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉. . ␊ᾳ⤥㖶栗⯙ὪἈ⑳㕘▭䭉⥼㚫ᶲ␿⟜ᷳ ⼴炻Ἀ⑳奢⼿㚱暨天⍣ㄛ 18

┚拊⸓⣏⭞炻. .

19

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ὢˤ 20

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉. . Ṏ悥性⃵⯙Ὢ㚱┚ⒼὪᶨ⭂天 ▭⯙Ⓖ⤥ ˤ 21

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ὢˤ 2

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉ㆹ⯙Ὢ゛⓷ᶳἈ㚱ℯ䞼䨞忶╢␊ᾳ㡅㫦ᶲ檀炻℞⮎ὪⒼὪ悥Ὢ⎗ẍㄛ 23

䔒炻溆妋天 ␊ᾳⶍ䦳炻␊ᾳὪⒼὪᶨᾳ䃉媪▭ⶍ䦳␊烎 24

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉␊ᶨ⇣⓷ㆹ炻ㆹ䫼Ⓖ⇘⯙Ὢ娙ἊὪⒼὪⰔ㕤朆⽭天ⶍ䦳ᷳ ᶨˤ 25

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉⚈䁢Ἀ⑳⎴⬷㤕⎴❳泣㭭攳㚫▭㗪῁炻ㆹ⑳夳⇘2024 ⸜1 㚰㚱妶婾 26

忶ὪⒼὪ㉮昌ᾳ⇍枭䚖▭炻⯙␊┚ⶍἄἈ㚱ℯấ⍫冯烎 27

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉㚱ˤ 28

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉⤪㝄ㆹ⑳䛯䔒H1

枩炻ㆹ⑳夳⇘㚱ᾳ㚫嬘䲨抬▭炻␊⹎㚱㍊妶 29

忶炻↢ⷕ侭ㆾ㱽⛀炻␊ᾳ⊭Ⓖ⊭㊔Ἀ冒⶙烎姀Ⓖ姀⼿烎ㆹ䞍忻⤥⣂ᾳ㚫ˤ 30

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ⓖ⤥シ⿅炻ㆹⒼὪ⤥姀⼿ˤ 31

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉⤪㝄䛯䔒ᾳ䲨抬炻⤪㝄6035 ▘⹎炻␊⹎㚱嫃忶炻㚱┚㔯ẞ䛯⇘娙天㉮ 32

昌┚⑑◊炻ㆹ䚠ᾉἈ䛯忶▭炻Ὢ⑒烎 3

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ὢ炻Ὢ炻Ὢˤ 34

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉ㆹ⑳䔁シ⇘柕⃰ 㯜仠▘ᾳ抒䢂ⶍ䦳炻▘ᾳ6.2 (a) 枭ℯ╢⹎↿↢♇▭炻 35

ㆾ侭⎗Ⓖ⎗ẍ␩嫃炻⌛ὪỤ᷶ Ἀ⑳゛⍣⇒㷃ᶨ┚ⶍ䦳▭㗪῁炻⯙ℯ侫ㄖ⇘▘ᶨ枭烎 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十四天

45

本謄本由E piq 編製 ⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ὢ炻ℯ侫ㄖ忶ˤ 1 㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉ㆹ゛⓷Ἀ㚱ᾳ䇕嬘炻⯙Ὢ㚱ℯ㺷㯜㟡㛔ᶲᾳ㯜仠暨Ⓖ暨天 炻␊ᶨ㧋◊ 2 Ἀ⑳㚱ℯ㍊妶忶烎 3 ⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉䔞℞㗪ℯ㍊妶忶炻⚈䁢ℯシ嬀⇘ὪἊⒼὪ朆⽭天ˤ 4 㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉␩⍣6034 ˤㆹ⑳䛯䔒6034 ␊ᾳ䲨抬炻Ἀ夳⇘㚱斄⣑⎘⃚ 㯜仠炻㚱妶 5 婾⬷㤕㚨⼴娙㶐Ὢ 㴰旚仠炻ℵ㔜渡㯜仠炻嶇ỷ㶉㯜仠炻⯮㗪㚫ῇ䓐㴰旚仠▭炻㇨ 6 ẍ䔞㗪℞⮎ㅱ娚Ὢ㚱斄㲐忶ㆾ侭㚱妶婾忶ῇ䓐ᾳ㴰旚仠␊ᾳ⓷柴炻Ὢ⑒烎 7 ⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ὢˤ 8 㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉⤪㝄ᾳ⎰䲬塷朊㍸忶天 冐㗪梇㯜仠炻ỮὪ⼴ἮỤ᷶ ᾳ 㱽⯙䓐ᾳ㴰旚 9 仠♇ 㚧ẋ⑩炻Ụ᷶ ⤪㝄␊ᶨ⹎㚱斄㲐忶䚠斄▭⎰䲬㡅㫦炻⯙㚫㚱ᾳ䔹⓷炻⯙Ὢ溆 10

妋ⒼὪἊ⑳㍸ὃᶨᾳ冐㗪▭梇㯜仠炻溆妋ㆹ⑳天 ␊ᾳⶍ䦳ˤ␩䔞䃞ㆹ㖶䘥䔞㗪㚱 1

⤥⣂ᾳ枭䚖天⍣䛯炻ỮὪㆹ婿␊ᶨᾳἈ▭嫃㱽炻㚫Ⓖ㚫⯙Ὢ侴⭞䛯䔒⎗傥Ὢ㚱┚⓷ 12

柴炻ỮὪ䔞㗪Ụ᷶ ℯ侫ㄖ忶烎 13

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉ℯ拗ˤ 14

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉ㆹ⑳⼴Ἦ䞍忻2025 ⸜3 㚰㚱䈡⇍▭㤕ᷣ ⣏㚫⯙㈽䤐㉮昌␿ᶨ┚朆⽭天 15

▭枭䚖ˤ 16

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ⓖˤ 17

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉⤪㝄ㆹ⑳䛯䔒G1

ᾳ䲨抬炻╢㉮昌┚⑑◊ⶍ䦳▘⹎炻Ụ᷶ 㚱㍸ 18

忶Ὢ㉮昌␊ᾳ梇㯜仠彎ⶍ䦳炻Ἀ⍣⇘2A 炻句炻ㆹ⑳夳⇘㚱㈽忶䤐㚱␊ᾳ䳸㝄炻Ἀ⎗ 19

Ⓖ⎗ẍ⌛Ὢ⯙␊ᶨᾳ枭䚖⎴❳␊ᾳ妶婾妋慳ᶨᶳ烎 20

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ὢ炻⤪㝄␊ᾳ梇㯜仠▘ᾳ㯜彎溆妋Ἂ⑳娵⎴Ὢ⎗ẍ⍣⇼昌炻Ὢ⚈䁢ㆹ⑳ẚ㚱⎎ 21

⢾ᶨᾳ⎓ ⑑◊- ␊ᾳ⎓⑑◊屯≑2.0 炻Ὢ▘ᾳⰔ㕤⬱ℐ妰∫屯≑炻␩Ἂ㚫- 㛔幓 2

▘ᾳ妰∫⯙Ὢ㓧⹄㚱ᶨ┚屯≑▭炻␩Ṏ悥⊭㊔❳▘ᾳ槿㯜▘ᾳ枭䚖╢塷朊炻␩嬲␊ 23

㧋慵墯炻ㆹ⑳⯙天㯪Ἂ⇒㷃䔒ˤ 24

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉㖶䘥ˤ⌛Ὢ␊ᾳὪ⬴ℐὪ⚈䁢嗽䎮梇㯜仠▭⓷柴炻㇨ẍ⯙Ὢ⇒㷃炻 ỮὪ 25

冯㬌⎴㗪炻䔞㗪⯙ℯ婿忶ᾳ㴰旚仠ᾳⶍ䦳ᾳ⽭天⿏烎 26

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ὢˤ 27

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉ᷣ ⷕ炻ㆹ婿ㆹ⎗ẍ➢㕤Ἂ┚䫼㟰炻ㆹ婿⎗ẍ⇒㷃ᶨ䲣↿▭⓷柴炻ㆹ侫ㄖ 28

ᶨᶳ⎗Ⓖ⎗ẍ⾓┚⬴ㆸ炻ᶵ⤪␊ᾳ㗪攻ㆹ⑳㖑⮹⮹⋰梗ˤ 29

映┇⹟㱽⭀烉ㆹ゛⓷- Ṳ㫉ㆹ婿㚱℞ṾṢ゛⓷▭炻Ὢ⑒烎ㆹ婿℞Ṿ⯭㮹ㆾ侭ẋ堐ˤ 30

㛶⼳ṩ屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉Ⓖ㚫⤥攟ˤ 31

映┇⹟㱽⭀烉Ⓖ㚫⤥攟ˤ℞Ṿ悥Ⓖ㚫烎Okay ˤ 32

⬓曾Ḧ屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉ㆹ⑳⎗傥㚱ℑ军ᶱ㡅▭⓷柴ˤ 3

映┇⹟㱽⭀烉␩ㆹ⑳2 溆15 ↮彼♇ˤ 34

35

12 㗪47 ↮修妲㉤⼴ 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十四天

46

本謄本由E piq 編製 14 㗪15 ↮修妲《⽑ 1

2 映┇⹟㱽⭀烉婳两临ˤ 3 㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉⼸⃰ 䓇炻⯙Ἀ⎴⬷㤕妶婾㚱┚⑑◊枭䚖⎗ẍ⇒㓡炻㚱┚⑑◊枭䚖天两 4 临炻㚱ᶨᾳὪ䏜㖍㚱ỵ嫱Ṣ㍸⇘炻ㆹ゛䛯⸓ᶨ⸓ㆹ⑳炻⤪㝄ㆹㆹ⑳⍣H1

5 枩炻␊ấㆹ⑳庫㖑ᷳ ⇵䛯忶▭␊ᾳ⎰Ἕ妶婾悐↮炻Ἀ夳⇘␊⹎Ὢ嫃䵲㚱⑑◊枭䚖⎗ 6 ẍⒼ ▭炻ㆹ⑳悥䞍忻Ἀ㚱ấ⍫冯炻␊ấ㔯ẞὪ⑒Ἀ ׀烎⭂Ὢ. .

7 ⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉⸦ỵ⥼⒉⎴❳ᶨ┚⯭㮹ᶨ滲婿↢♇▭ˤ 8 㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉Ὢ炻⌛ὪἈ- ỮὪἈ㚱ấ䛯忶┯䔞㗪烎 9 ⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉㚱ấ炻Ὢˤ 10

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉ㆹ゛䛯䔒㚨枪▘枭炻Ἀ夳⇘㚱ᾳ埴Ṣ嶗味枪䪡vs 揝䙖␊ᾳ⓷柴炻䏜㖍 1

倥嫱㚫㚱⯭㮹悥䔁シ⇘炻℞⮎㛔Ἦ⯙Ὢ娙ᾳⶍ䦳Ὢ⊭ᶨ┚慹Ⱄ▭忂忻▘ᾳ枪▭炻⚈ 12

䁢⯙娙樂㚱┚䠔䈑㚫嵴句♇炻⼙枧⇘┚⯭㮹ˤ 13

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ὢ炻Ⓖ炻Ⓖˤ 14

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉ỮὪ⼴Ἦ⍰娙ℯ  忶ˤ ㆹ⑳夳⇘␊⹎Ụ᷶ ᾳ䲨抬⯙␩娙ˬ 㱽⛀ 15

炷English Spoken 炸24 叔˭炻䨞䪇䘤䓇⑑◊ḳ烎ㆹ⑳゛䞍忻䫔ᶨ炻䨞䪇䔞㗪㚱 16

ℯ 忶ᶨ┚揝▭枪▭忂忻▭␊烎 17

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉揝枪忂忻炻ℯˤ 18

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉ℯ炻␩Ὢ⑒⼴Ἦ⁦␿Ⓖ 炻Ⓖ䓨拊Ἂ⎾炻⭂Ὢ℞⮎Ἂ冒⶙ℯ ␊烎 19

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉ㆹⒼὪ⣒姀⼿▘ᾳ炻⯙ỷ␊ᶨ溆▘ᾳ㹅忂炻ㆹⒼὪ⤥姀⼿ˤ 20

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉㖶䘥炻␩␊ᾳㆹ婿Ἀ⸓Ⓖ⇘ㆹ⑳ˤ⎎⢾ᶨ㧋◊ㆹ゛⓷ᶳ炻⯙Ὢ⎴Ἀ㚱┚ 21

↯幓斄Ὢ炻⚈䁢Ἀ ␿ᷣ ⷕᷳ ⼴␊炻⤥㖶栗⛘䛯Ἀ柕⃰ ▘ᾳ㈽姜炻⯙ὪἈ㚱㈽姜湫 2

䡏⪴嬘⒉⍣㓆┚㌰㪲䤐炻ㆹ⑳Ṳ㛅夳⇘ˤ 23

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ⓖˤ 24

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉ᷳ ⼴炻Ἀ⑳䔞怠␿ᷳ ⼴炻⎗Ⓖ⎗ẍ␩嫃␊烎Ἀ⑳㕘▭䭉⥼㚫⎴Ἂ嶇冲䭉 25

⥼㚫㭼炻Ἀ⑳⎴Ἂᾳ斄Ὢℯ␩⭮↯Ụ᷶ 炻Ὢ⑒烎 26

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉⎴湫䡏⪴嬘⒉ℯ␩⭮↯ˤ 27

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉Ὢ◆炻㚱ℯṢ╢Ἀ䔞怠ᷳ ⼴⎴Ἀ嫃忶娙悥⎓䔒┚⋨嬘⒉♇⸓ㇳ炻ㆾ侭⎓ 28

䔒Ἂ⑳⍫冯烎 29

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉ℯ䈡⇍㚱Ṣ⎓♱炻Ὢ◆炻␩䛯ᶳὪ┚⑑◊炻⌛Ὢ⤪㝄⸓⯭㮹▭炻ㆹ⑳㠿Ὢ䃉ả 30

㬉彶ˤ 31

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉溆妋ㆹ␩⓷Ἀ␊烎⤪㝄ㆹ⑳䛯䔒湫⤛⢓䓨ㆹ⑳▭ᶨ┚屯㕁炻╢㔯ẞ⣦ 32

V/365 枩炻V/365 炻ㆹ⑳夳⇘㚱┚WhatsAp ▭佌䳬炻Ὢ㚱┚⬷䤷剹▭⯭㮹ㆾ侭 3

㚱┚⇵▭㱽⛀▭⥼⒉⎴❳湫⤛⢓炻ẚ㚱惏⚳㪲悥㚱ấ▭炻⤥㖶栗⛘␊⹎⯙Ἀℯấ׀ 34

◆炻⚈䁢⼴朊㚱┚䲨抬␊Ụ᷶ 悥Ὢ⮵ἈⒼ㺧シ▭ˤỮὪἈ⎗傥悥㛒䛯忶▭ˤỮὪㆹ 35

悥゛- ⒼὪ炻Ἀㅱ娚Ὢᶨ⭂㛒䛯忶炻⤪㝄ㆹ⑳⍣䛯ᶳ365 ▭⸽悐炻Ụ᷶ 㚱┚倚枛 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十四天

47

䭉䎮℔⎠䘤↥ 10

䓨ㆹㆾ侭㠭⮹Ⲙ⋨嬘⒉炻ㆹ⑳ℑṢ⽭㚫㚱ᶨỵ↢ⷕ˭ˤ惏⚳㪲⯙娙ˬ㚱Ṣ╄㬉嶐⋨ 1

䘬˭炻␩⬷䤷剹㚱ỵ湫䓇⯙娙ˬἊℯ㇨媪炻㶐Ὢ゛㚱䴻槿Ṣ⛸捖炻㚱ᶨᾳṢ䞍⎵⹎ 12

▭Ṣ⢓↢ⷕ㚫嬘ˤ˭Ἀ夳⇘湫⤛⢓嶇ỷ嫃炻⍰娙㚱┚埿⛲⯙娙゛⎓Ἂ两临⸓ˤ⤪㝄 13

ㆹ⑳䛯ᶳᶨ枩␊炻Ἂ娙ˬ⤪㝄㤕㇞倗会␊烎˭湫䓇⯙娙ˬ⣒⣏昋ṿ˭ˤ嶇ỷ㚱㍸⇘ 14

Ὢˬ⑒天⎓Ἂ⿺ⷠ ↢ⷕ烎˭炻␩Ἂ⯙娙ˬ␩⯙Ⓖ⤥◆烎˭ㆹ゛⓷Ἀ▭⓷柴℞⮎Ὢ␩ 15

▭炻╢Ἀ⑳ ␿䭉⥼㚫ᷳ ⼴炻䫔ᶨ炻㚱ℯṢ⎓Ἀ⑳䓨䔒Ἂ⑳⍫冯ㆾ侭⎓Ἂ⑳↢ⷕ烎 16

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉ㆹℯ倥忶ˤ 17

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉ℯ倥忶炻⯙ᶨ┚⯭㮹⣏㚫炻ᶨ┚AGM ˣEGM 炻Ụ᷶ ὪἈ⑳ᷣ ≽怨婳Ἂ⑳ 18

↢ⷕ▭炻Ὢ⑒⏨烎 19

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ὢ埴ⷠ ㄋἳ␩怨婳▭ˤ 20

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉Ὢ⑒⏨烎⌛Ὢ㭷ᶨ㫉℞⮎ᾳㄋἳ⯙Ὢ▘┚⣏㚫⯙怨婳⋨嬘⒉♇▭烎 21

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉ℯ拗ˤ 2

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉ㆹ悥夳⇘328 枩炻ㆹ⑳夳⇘㚱ᶨᾳἈ䯥ㆾ侭㚱Ἀᾳ- ẍἈ▭⎵佑䘤↢ 23

▭怨婳炻⯙Ὢ䓨湫嬘⒉⯙⎓Ἂ♇攳␐⸜⣏㚫▭炻␊ᾳ⯙㚱▭烎 24

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ⓖ炻Ⓖˤ 25

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉昌␿␩炻Ἀ ᷣ ⷕ▭㛇攻炻Ἂ㚱ℯ冒⶙㏝Ἀㆾ侭⯙⣏䵕ᾖ▭ḳね⎴ἈṌ 26

㴱⏨烎 27

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉ℯˤ 28

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉Ἀ䞍Ⓖ䞍忻溆妋⤪㝄Ἂ⍰␩斄⽫┚⯭㮹炻⍰⮵⣏䵕ᾖ␩斄㲐炻Ἂ溆妋Ⓖ 29

⎴Ἀ䚜㍍㍍㳥⏨烎 30

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉䛇ὪⒼ⣒㶭㤂┶炻ㆹ⑳䔞怠▘昋㗪炻ㆹ⑳⤥䥖尴␩㧋炻ㆹ⑳㚱旧∗ᷣ ⷕ⍣⎴Ἂ 31

倗专忶炻ỮὪℯ⚆央♱ˤ 32

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉Ⓖ炻㖶䘥ˤ 3

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ⓖˤ 34

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉⤥◆炻ㆹ゛嶇ỷ⍣䛯⎎⢾ᶨ┚▭⓷柴炻ㆹ⑳╢␊ᾳ倥嫱㚫Ἀ悥䞍忻妶婾 35

忶䓇⎋▭⓷柴┯ˤ 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十四天

48

本謄本由E piq 編製 ⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ⓖˤ 1 㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉ㆹ⑳侴⭞夳⇘▭嫱㒂℞⮎悥⤥㶭㤂炻Ụ᷶ ⯙Ὢ㭷ḼⰌ攳␿ᶨᾳ炻␊ᾳἈ 2 ⑳ỷ╢▘⹎▭⯭㮹Ἀᶨ⭂䞍׀┯烎 3 ⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ⓖˤ 4 㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉⎗Ⓖ⎗ẍ␩嫃␊烎䔞㗪Ἀ⑳ℯ䔁シ␊ᶨ㧋◊Ὢ㚫㥳ㆸᶨᾳ桐晒炻Ὢ⑒烎 5 ⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉桐晒⯙ℯ婿⇘Ὢ斄㕤▘ᾳ- ㅱ娚␩嫃炻Ἂ⑳㰢⭂␿ᷳ ⼴炻ㆹ⑳悥Ⓖ䞍忻Ὢ㚱ᶨ 6 ␊ᾳ斄㕤㢂䀓▭桐晒ˤ 7 㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉ỮὪ㚱ỷ㇞Ὢ゛Ḯ妋溆妋天␩ Ụ᷶ 烎ㆹ夳⇘炻゛⓷ᶨ⓷Ἀ䔞㗪▘ᾳね 8 㱩Ὢ溆炻⤪㝄ㆹ⑳⍣F1/1 78 枩炻s or y 炻ⒼὪF1 炻sor y 炻ㅱ娚ὪF4 ♇▭炻 9 ▘ᾳWhatsAp ♇▭ˤὪ◆炻Ἀ䛯䔒1 溆37 ↮炻㚱ỵ⎓ - ⎵⎓炷English 10

Spoken 炸ˬㆹṲ㖑㓞⇘㤕㇞▭㞍娊炻婒⼴㦻㡗悐↮䨿㇞塓㉮Ḯ炻㎃ㆸḮ攳斄攨炻 1

Ἂ⑳⑵䭉䎮嗽㞍娊炻䘤奢⣂⹏悥㚱␊ᾳね㱩炻㤕㇞゛Ḯ妋㗗⏎㚱⽭天˭ˤἈ夳⇘㖑 12

㛇℞⮎悥㚱␊┚妶婾炻Ὢ⑒⏨烎䫔ᶨ炻␊ᾳ怲ᾳ♇׀炻Ἀ䞍Ⓖ䞍烎 13

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉ㆹ⑳楖⥼⒉炻楖朄㫋⥼⒉ˤ 14

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉⌛ὪἊὪ℞ᷕ ᶨỵ⥼⒉♇▭烎 15

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ⓖˤ 16

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉嶇ỷ⬷㤕␊炻⎴ᶨ枩ᶳỶ⮹⮹炻䭕◜␊⹎◆炻ˬ. . 炷倥ᶵ㶭炸䓨ⶍṢ 17

忚↢㢂㝞ⶍἄ炻⚈ᶵ⎗傥天ⶍṢ㭷㖍䇔ᶱ⋩Ⰼ㦻↢⍣ⶍἄ炻㇨ẍ⯙㭷昼ḼⰌ㚱ᶨᾳ 18

攳⎋炻ᷳ ⇵⬷㤕⶚䴻⎹㱽⛀䓛婳␿˭炻炷English Spoken 炸Ὢ泣㭭▭- ⌛ὪὪ 19

ᾳ栏⓷␩嫃▭烎 20

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉ℯ拗ˤ 21

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉⯙␊ᶨᾳ⓷柴炻ㆹ㖶䘥䔞㗪Ἀ⑳⎗傥ℯṢ娙Ἀ䞍Ὢᶨᾳ⓷柴炻Ἀ⑳㕘㱽 2

⛀ᶲảᷳ ⼴炻⎗Ⓖ⎗ẍ␩嫃烎Ụ᷶ ℯ斄㲐炻ㆾ侭ℯℵ- ⌛Ὢ晾䃞㚱Ṣ⓷␊ẞḳ炻㚱 23

ℯ㞍䔒Ὢ⑒⎴冲㱽⛀㚱ℯ妶婾忶烎 24

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉㚱ℯ妶婾忶炻ㆹⒼ姀⼿␿Ὢ⑒天炷English Spoken 炸Ὢ⑒⇵㱽⛀炻ỮὪㆹ 25

⑳ᶨ⭂㚱斄㲐▘┚䓇⎋▘ᾳ⓷柴▭炻ỮὪἊ⑳⚆央炻⌛Ὢ⤥Ụ㬋⤪␊⹎嫃炻⎴❳ⶍ 26

䦳▘ᾳ- ⶍ䦳㚫嬘▘昋㗪炻ㆹ⑳悥㚫嫃炻␩Ἂ⑳央䔒⯙娙⌛Ὢ␊ᶨᾳ䓇⎋炻昌␿柕 27 ⃰ ␊⹎㇨⮓⯙娙⎗傥天䓙ᶲ朊句⇘♇ᶳ朊ㆾ侭䓙ᶳ朊ᶲ⍣Ὢ⌛Ὢ悥⸦Ⓖ⎗傥┯炻⎴ 28

❳Ἂ⑳娙␊ᾳṎ悥Ὢᶨᾳㄋⷠ ▭ 㱽炻㇨ẍㆹ⑳悥䃉⎗⣰ỽ悥天⎒⎗ẍ㍍⍿♱炻 29

Ⓖˤ 30

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉䔞䃞Ἀ悥⎒⎗ẍὅ岜Ἂ. .

31

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉栏⓷▭㰢⭂炻Ὢ◆ˤ 32

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉⤥◆炻嶇ỷㆹ⑳゛㍊妶ᶨᾳ℞⮎悥㭼庫⣂嫱㒂▭⓷柴炻ㆹⒼ暨天⎴Ἀ⍣ 3

ℵ㍊妶Ὢ⑒䛇Ὢ㚱ⶍṢ梇䄁炻Ụ᷶ 㚱⤥⣂⯭㮹悥嫃忶㚱ˤ⍵侴ㆹ゛Ἀ㍊妶▭⯙Ὢ⚈ 34

䁢ℍἈὪ䭉⥼㚫ᷣ ⷕ炻ㆹ゛㍊妶ᶳἈ⑳ 忶┚⑑◊嶇忚⎴❳Ἀ⑳忯⇘▘ᾳ⓷柴Ὢ 35

溆炻⚈䁢ㆹ夳⇘WhatsAp 塷朊Ἀ悥㚱堐ン▭炻⤪㝄ㆹ⑳䛯䔒F4/1041 炻ㆹ⑳╢ 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十四天

49

本謄本由E piq 編製 1 溆14 ↮炻ㆹ⑳㚫夳⇘㚱ỵKarina 炻Ἂ⯙娙␊⹎嫃⇘䫔5 埴炻Ὢ◆炻ˬ⛐㢂ᶲ 1 梇䄁炻⬷㤕堐㖶炻⬷㤕㖶䡢⛘␥ẌⶍṢ⎒傥⛐㊯⭂⛘㕡梇䄁炻⤪㚱䘤䎦䉗拗㚫嗽 2 ↮ˤ˭㒂Ἀ▭䎮妋炻䔞㗪␊ᾳὪἈ⑳⎴⬷㤕㚱堐忼忶␊ᾳ⓷柴烎 3 ⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉䳽⮵㚱ˤ 4 㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉䳽⮵㚱炻侴暨天堐忼␊ᾳ⓷柴⯙Ὢㆹ䚠ᾉὪ悥㚱⸦⣂⯭㮹㈽姜炻Ὢ⑒烎 5 ⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉ℯ拗ˤ 6 㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉╢䘤䓇␿⑑◊ḳᶲ檀炻Ἀ⑳㈽姜⬴ᷳ ⼴炻Ἂ⑳⎴Ἀ嫃㚫嗽↮炻ỮὪᾳ⓷ 7 柴悥两临↢䎦炻Ἀ㱽⛀ ␿┚⑑◊␊烎 8 ⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉℞⮎ㆹ⑳ᶨᶲ⟜ㆹ⑳⶚䴻⎴Ἂ嫃娙㚱斄㕤▘┚⎓ ⏠䄁▭㈽姜炻ㆾ侭Ὢ≈❳ẚ 9 㚱℞Ṿ▘┚⎗傥⬱ℐⷞ▘┚炻ㆹ婿Ἀ⑳悥倥忶ˤ䃞⼴ㆹ⑳⯙╢▘ᾳ- ≈❳╢ㆹ⑳▘ 10

┚Ḽ㕡㚫嬘▘┚⛘㕡ㆹ⑳悥⶚䴻㚱㈽姜忶斄㕤▘┚⏠䄁▭⛘㕡炻␩㚨⇅Ἂ⑳⯙Ὢ娙 1

㚫∫ᶨᾳ⋨➇䓨Ἂ⑳⍣㊯⭂⏠䄁炻␩⼴Ἦ␩Ἂ⑳ẚ㚱梇䄁┶炻␩侴ᶼ⚈䁢㚱- 㚨⚘ 12

暋▭⛘㕡⯙ὪἊ⑳㚱昋㗪ⶍṢ╢㢂ᶲ朊梇䄁炻ㆹ⑳㋱Ⓖ⇘Ἂ炻ㆹ⑳⎒傥⣈⯙娙⎓Ἂ 13

㚱ảỽ䚠䇯⯙Ṍ䓨ㆹ⑳炻ㆹ⯙⌛⇣廱䘤↢⍣䓨Ἂ⑳⬷㤕⍣嶇忚ˤ⤪㝄␩Ἂ⑳悥岲ㆸ 14

␿⯙娙⤪㝄▘ᾳⶍṢ㏝⇘ὪἊ⑳▭ⶍṢ炻Ἂ⑳⯙㚫䚜ね⍣炷English Spoken 炸 15

ㆹ⑳⎓ 炻⌛Ὢ湹⎵╖炻Ⓖ⎗ẍℵ╢ㆹ⑳⬷䤷剹⹎ℵ彼ⶍ炻Ὢˤ 16

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉ㆹ⑳柕⃰ 䛯␊ᾳ妲〗Ὢ9 㚰┯炻2024 ⸜炻℞⮎⤪㝄Ἀ䛯䔒1269 枩炻 17

℞⮎忶␿⤥⣂ᾳ㚰炻⇘2025 ⸜▭2 㚰ㆹ⑳嫃䵲炻ㆹ⑳夳⇘℞⮎炻⤪㝄䛯25 嘇▭ 18

㗷㘅⚃溆⸦ˣḼ溆▭㗪῁炻℞⮎悥ẚὪ嫃䵲梇䄁▭炻⌛Ὢ嫃␿␩侸炻Ἀ夳⇘␊╍㚱 19

ỵ炷English Spoken 炸娙ˬㆸ⯳悥Ὢ䄁␛˭炻嶇ỷ炷English Spoken 炸⯙ 20

娙ˬ⬷㤕ỽ䓇炻湣䄑ἈṲᾳ㗇㛇ⶍ䦳㚫嬘㍸ὃᶨᾳ䚋㍏㕡㟰˭ˤ嶇ỷ4 溆58 ↮ 21

炷English Spoken 炸⯙娙ˬ㚱⑑◊优㫦㨇⇞烎˭侴ᷳ ⼴旧㰇䓇悥Ὢ娙Ἂ婿ℯṢ 2

➟埴ˤㆹ⑳夳⇘⎴ᶨ枩5 溆02 ↮Ἀ⯙↢䎦炻Ἀ⯙娙ˬ㗇㛇ℕ⥼⒉㚫嫃㖶天Ṍẋ溆 23

䭉䎮ㆾ嶇忚ⶍṢ梇䄁⍲⬱ℐ⓷柴炻湣䄑栏⓷␴⬷㤕⸓⸓ㇳ炻ㆹ⑳溆㧋句炷English 24

Spoken 炸炻䫱ㆹ⤥Ṍẋ˭ˤ⌛Ὢ℞⮎Ἀ悥⎓Ἂ⑳嗽䎮┯ˤ嶇ỷ5 溆06 ↮炻ㆹ⯙ 25

夳⇘Ἀℵ嫃炻␊ᾳ㝹Ṽ⌛ὪἈ┯ˤ 26

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ⓖˤ 27

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉Ἀ␩嫃┶炻ˬ冱⟙屔ảᶵ⛐ㆹ㕡炻侴䚋䜋㕡䭉䎮炻⌛Ὢₙᷣ 屜℔⎠炻ℯ 28

䎮䓙天⯭㮹㈧㑼⎗傥䓨Ṣ⟙⽑▭⽫䎮⊭塙炻ᶵ㗗娙Ἂ⑳ⶍṢ㚫␩ 炻Ữ⎒Ὢ旣㬊Ⓖ 29

⇘Ἂ⑳␩婿˭炻Ἀ娙ˬ䫱㕤Ἀ⍣勞梸⺛炻Ἀ悥Ⓖ㚫伝櫏┚⼭ㅱ炻屣ḳⅵ㩠㯜. . ˭ 30

Ὢ♱炻⌛ὪἈ嫃␿娙. .

31

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ⓖ⤥シ⿅炻Ὢ炻⮵Ⓖỷ炻Ὢ炻⌛Ὢ⤥層⛘␩嫃ˤ 32

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉⌛ὪἈ㑼⽫㚫⍿⟙⽑┯炻Ὢ⑒烎 3

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ὢ炻Ὢ炻ℯ拗ˤ 34

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉␩ỮὪℯ彎㱽炻Ἀᶵ ␩嫃炻Ἂ⍰ᶵ ␩㧋㧋⍣Ⓖ嗽䎮␊ẞḳˤ⌛Ὢ⎗ 35

Ⓖ⎗ẍ娙℞⮎Ἀ㚱Ἀ⑳嫃炻Ἂ⍰ℯ嗽䎮炻ỮὪ悥ℯṢ嶇忚烎 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十四天

50

本謄本由E piq 編製 ⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉ㆹ⑳デ奢Ὢ␩㧋ˤ 1 㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉ㆹ⑳⍣⇘1285 枩炻⇘ᶳᶨᾳ㚰␊炻ㆹ⑳夳⇘12 溆17 ↮Ἀ悥㚱┚䈊 2 槟׀◆炻Ἀ娙ˬㆹ娵ㆹὪᶨᾳ⺊ᷣ ⷕ炻ẍᶳㆹᾳṢ▭䛯㱽炻ᶵẋ堐ảỽṢˤ˭嶇ỷ 3 Ἀ悥嫃↢ᶨ┚シ夳▭ˤ 4 ⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ⓖˤ 5 㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉Ἀ娙ˬㆹᾳṢ䛇ὪⒼὪ゛㏆⇘䀺┚ⷓ‭炻⯌℞㗗⮰㤕▭炻⮰ 㚱ㇳⶍ▭ 6 ⷓ‭炻㚱㕁ˣ㚱⽫㨇▭Ṣ暋㯪炻Ḯ妋ⶍ䦳䓴梇䄁Ὢⷠ ン炻㇨ẍἈㅯ婳⬷㤕劎⎋⧮ 7 ⽫炻䓐Ἀ⑳▭㕡㱽婧㔁ⷓ‭⇘Ⓖ⤥ℵ╢ⶍἄ㗪攻梇䄁◆˭ˤ 8 ⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ⓖˤ 9 㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉Ἀ娙ˬⒼὪ⎴ね⣏⭞炻ㇻấⶍ㏝梇炻ỮὪ℞⮎⤥ⶍ⣓▭ⷓ‭⯙⸓⇘⯳ 10

剹˭ˤㆹ⎗Ⓖ⎗ẍ␩嫃炻Ἀ悥Ὢ䓐ᶨ┚⊠╣▭㕡㱽␩ 炻ỮὪἈ⑳㚱Ἀ⑳⊠炻Ἂ⑳ 1

㚱Ἂ⑳Ⓖ䎮Ἀ炻⤥⣂ᾳ㚰悥Ὢ␩炻ㆹ゛⓷Ἀ⑳㚱ℯ㍉⍾ᶨ┚忚ᶨ㬍▭埴≽烎 12

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉℞⮎ㆹ⑳- Ἀ㚫䛯⇘┯炻ㆹ⑳䓙攳⥳⇘侴⭞悥ᶵ 㚫㓞⇘┚梇䄁▭㈽姜炻ㆹ⑳ 13

ⶴ㛃Ἂ⑳㚫㍉⍾ᶨ┚优⇯⍣ᷣ ≽⍣ 㬊Ἂ梇䄁炻␩ㆹ䚠ᾉ⌛Ὢ⣏⭞悥㚫䛯⇘炻℞⮎ 14

梇䄁⎗傥䛇ὪⒼ䞍溆妋┚ⶍṢ䛇ὪⒼ⎗ẍ炻⌛Ὢ⽵Ⓖ⇘⍣梇䄁┯╢ᾳⶍ⛘▘⹎ˤ␩ 15

䠔Ⓖ⼿炻ㆹ⍰娎ᶳ庇⼿Ⓖ⼿炻⌛ὪἈ悥㚫夳⇘炻⌛Ὢ娙⎗Ⓖ⎗ẍbriefing ᶳ炻⌛ 16

Ὢ䓙Ἂ⑳ℵ⎴┚ⷓ‭ℵbriefing ᶨᶳ炻庇䠔悥Ⓖ⼿炻℞⮎ㆹ⑳ἄ䁢㱽⛀炻ㆹ⑳⍰ 17

Ⓖ傥⣈⍣⺧⚃⮷㗪㳦ṢṢ憀Ṣ炻␩ㆹ⑳Ὢ夳ᶨ㫉⯙⎴Ἂ嫃ᶨ㫉炻㟡㛔Ἂ⑳┚ⶍṢ悥 18

ẚὪ⅍枹ᶵ曰炻℞⮎ᶨ攳柕⍣⇘ㆹ婿ᷕ 徼炻℞⮎ㆹ⑳悥⶚䴻Ὢ⍣⇘⎗傥㚱┚hold 19

payment ⏨炻⌛Ὢhold ỷ┚payment ⎴Ἂ嫃ˬ┪炻Ἀ▘䘬ⶍṢ梇䄁ㆾ侭▘┚ 20

炷English Spoken 炸㚱⓷柴▘┚˭炻℞⮎ㆹ⑳悥㚫䓐⇘hold payment ⍣ 21

hold ỷἊ⑳炻Ⓖ⍣䘤㓦┚拊炻天Ἂ⑳ᾅ嫱ᶨ┚㈧媦炻␩Ἂ⑳⯙娙炻嬔⤪ㆹ⑳怨婳 2

❳ὗ䓇▘┚炻⌛Ὢ⬷㤕▭侩敮句⇘♇Ἂ㈧媦娙Ἂ⑳㚫≈⻟➟埴⏨␩㧋⍣ 炻␩⌛Ὢ 23

ㆹ⑳䃉⣰┯炻⌛Ὢ⤪㝄 ⇘␩炻Ἂ⑳悥ẚὪ㚱ⶍṢ梇䄁▭炻␩⌛Ὢ嬲␿Ὢㆹ⑳夳ᶨ 24

㫉⯙两临⍣娙ᶨ㫉♱ˤ 25

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉ㆹ゛娙夳⇘Ἀ⑳㚱ᶵ ␩⎓⬷㤕嗽䎮ˤ 26

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ὢˤ 27

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉ỮὪ℞⮎ẚ㚱⎎⢾ᶨᾳṢ㚱屔ả炻Ὢ⑒烎泣㭭⍣␿怲烎 28

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉䔞䃞炻ㆹ⑳嫃⯙Ὢ䚜㍍Ὢ⎴⬷㤕嫃炻℞⮎╢攳㚫塷朊炻ㆹ⑳Ὢ䜋Ὣỷ忶泣㭭Ὢ 29

⎓Ἂ⍣䚋⮇␊㧋◊炻⚈䁢℞⮎␊ᾳㆸᾳⶍ䦳▘ᾳ奺刚⯙Ὢ娙泣㭭栏⓷㛔幓⯙Ὢ⍣䭉 30

䎮㗺ㆸᾳ枭䚖炻␩㇨ẍ℞⮎ㆹ⑳⤥⣂㗪娙ἊⒼ倥▘㗪炻⌛Ὢᶵ婾Ὢ㈽姜Ὢ梇䄁ᷳ 31

栆炻℞Ṿㆹ⑳悥Ὢ㚫⎴栏⓷䔒娙ˬἈ⑳Ὢ㚱屔ả⍣䭉䎮䔒⬷㤕↢♇▭嬔⤪梇䄁ㆾ侭 32

Ὢ℞Ṿ㇨㚱▭◊悥Ὢ␩㧋ˤ˭ 3

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉␩㎃⎍娙嫃炻⌛Ὢ➢㛔ᶲ昌␿⊠ᷳ ⢾⯙ℯ◊䘤䓇忶烎 34

⼸㺧㝹⃰

䓇烉⍰Ⓖ⎗ẍ␩嫃▭炻⌛Ὢㆹ䷥ᷳ

ㆹ⑳ⒼὪ⊠炻Ὢᶨᾳ㕍屔♇炻㟡㛔Ⓖ⎗ẍ╢ả 35

ỽⶍ⛘梇䄁␊ᾳ⯙ᶨ⭂׀┯ˤ 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十四天

51

本謄本由E piq 編製 㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉⎗Ⓖ⎗ẍ␩嫃␊烎⌛ὪṎ悥天⮵Ἀ⑳℔⸛炻⯙⯭㮹▭㈽姜炻Ἀ⑳Ὢ㚱㹅 1 忂▭炻ỮὪ⎒ᶵ忶Ὢ⇘㚨Ⰰᾳ㓰㝄Ụ᷶ 悥ⒼὪ⤥䎮゛炻⚈䁢ㆹ⑳夳⇘▘┚㈽姜Ụ᷶ 2 ᶨ嶗悥㚱烎 3 ⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ὢ炻Ⓖˤ 4 㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉゛⎴Ἀ㍊妶⎎⢾ᶨᾳ䚠斄▭⓷柴炻⚈䁢ㆹ⑳夳⇘⤥⣂Ṣ㈽姜┚✫⛦➮ 5 䧵炻⯌℞㗗㚱┚嫱㒂栗䣢㆟䔹崟䀓ᾳỵ伖▘┚⃱ḽỵ炻℞⮎悥䓨┚ⶍṢ䓐␿♇ - 6 ⎗傥 ẹ〗┯炻Ἂᶲ句㚫↢ℍˤㆹ⑳Ὢ⣏䵕ᾖᾳWhatsAp group ⹎䛯⇘炻╢ 7 1 26 枩炻F4 ▭炻9 溆21 ↮ㆹ⑳夳⇘娙ˬ⬷⽿1 㦻⣑ḽỵ埿⛲⍵㗈䴻ⷠ ⤥⣂✫ 8 ⛦炻㰺㚱㶭䎮忶炻䎦㗪⣑㯋Ḧ䆍㚱晙か炻婳Ἀ嶇忚ˤ˭␊ᾳ旧㢖Ὢ⥼⒉⭂Ὢ烎 9 ⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉⥼⒉ˤ 10

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉⥼⒉♇▭炻Ἂ⯙Ὢ娙⬷⽿Ὢ␩┯炻㒂Ἀᾳ䎮妋炻␊ᾳね㱩▘┚⣑ḽỵ➮ 1

䧵✫⛦ㅱ娚ⒼὪ㶐Ὢ⬷⽿炻Ὢ⑒烎 12

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉ℯ䈡⭂炻ᶵ忶⎒ὪṲᷳ ␊ᾳὪ炻ℯ䈡⭂▭ˤ 13

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉ỮὪἈˬℯ䈡⭂˭▭シ⿅⌛Ὢ䫔Ḵ┚⣑ḽὪ⑒悥㚱↢䎦忶␊ᾳね㱩烎 14

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ὢ炻悥㚫㚱ˤ 15

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉㒂Ἀᾳ䎮妋炻℞⮎▘ᾳ⣑ḽỵ┚ⶍṢὪ䓐♇ Ḅ׀烎⚈䁢⍰Ụ᷶ ┚⯭㮹 16

ㆾ侭䭉䎮℔⎠㚱⮹⮹Ⓖ⎴▭嫃㱽炻Ἀ㚱ℯ夳忶┚ⷓ‭╢▘⹎倂普ㆾ侭▘⹎䓐♇ẹ 17

〗烎 18

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉ㆹℯ夳忶炻ỮὪㆹⒼ- ㆹ奢⼿Ⓖㅱ娚Ὢ␩ˤ 19

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉ㆹ゛⓷Ἀ⯙ὪỤ᷶ ⯙㏕␿㡅㡗䓨▘┚ⷓ‭䓙⛘ᶳ䇔ᶲ▘ᾳ⣑ḽ▭炻䓐䪡 20

♇㏕▭炻Ὢ⑒␩⏨炻㚱ℯ䔁シ⇘烎 21

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉ℯ䔁シ忶ˤ 2

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉␩ỮὪ⮵㕤⣂✫⛦炻␊ᾳὪᶨᾳ晙か炻␊ᾳἈ⎗ẍ䡢娵┯烎 23

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ὢˤ 24

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉ⒼˤἊ⑳ᷳ ⼴┚WhatsAp 㚱ᾳ嫃㱽炻⯙Ὢ娙⤪㝄Ἀ䛯䔒1 溆46 25

↮炻⯙娙㭷㗇㛇- 湶䴻䎮⯙娙ˬ㏕㢂⇵㭷㗇㛇悥㚫㶭㻼炻侴⭞⎗Ⓖ⎗ẍ⣦ᶳ㭷㚰㚨 26

⮹㶭ᶨ㫉烎˭炻嶇ỷỽ䓇娙ˬ⎗ẍ˭炻␩湶䴻䎮娙ˬ㭷ᾳ㚰㶭ᶨ㫉⣒⮹炻1 㦻⯭㮹 27

Ⓖ㚫㍍⍿▭ˤ˭嶇ỷ⯙娙ˬ⁦忶炻⬷㤕ⷓ‭㭷ᾳ㗇㛇Ḽㆾℕ⬱㌺ⶍṢ㌫ᶨ㫉˭ˤḳ 28

⮎ᶲ␊ᾳỵ⣂✫⛦▭ね㱩悥Ὢ㊩临䘤䓇▭炻⎗Ⓖ⎗ẍ␩嫃烎 29

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉⎗ẍˤ 30

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉㒂Ἀ䎮妋悥Ὢ␩┯烎 31

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ὢˤ 32

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉⚈䁢⇘䀓嬎ᷳ ⼴炻ㆹ⑳䛯䔒▘ᾳ⣑ḽỵ炻㴰旚嗽㍀䔒炻╢䒎䣓塷朊㍀䔒 3

↢♇悥夳⇘ẚὪ㚱⤥⣂✫⛦▭ˤ 34

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ὢˤ 35

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉Ṏ悥㚱Ṣ㈽姜忶娙⌛ὪⒼὪ⤥㶭㻼炻⤪㝄⍣1 39 ˤ句⸽炻⌛Ὢ㚱Ṣ娙 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十四天

52

本謄本由E piq 編製 ˬỤ᷶ 㚱ⷓ‭╢⬷㲘敋▘ᾳ⣑ḽ▘⹎⮷ὧ炻㚱♜慵堆䓇▭⓷柴˭ˤ嶇ỷἊ⑳娙ˬḮ 1 妋炻Ὢ⑒䛨ỷⶍ堋烎˭ㆹ婿ᾳ⓷柴⯙Ὢ␊炻Ụ᷶ ⯙Ὢ㚱ⶍṢ╢▘⹎倂普▭炻␊ᾳἈ 2 悥Ὢ⎴シ▭炻Ὢ⑒烎 3 ⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉⎴シˤ 4 㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉␊ᾳ⎗Ⓖ⎗ẍ␩嫃␊烎ㆹ⑳夳⇘ᶨ嶗悥㚱㈽姜炻ỮὪṎ悥娙㚱㶭㻼炻Ữ 5 ὪỤ᷶ ▘ᾳỵ㰉䲇ㆾ侭⣂暄䈑炻㚱✫⛦Ὢᶨᾳᶨ嶗悥埴ⷠ 㚫䘤䓇▭⓷柴烎 6 ⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ὢˤ 7 㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉Ṏ悥ℯḄ妋㰢▭- ⇘㚨Ⰰ悥ⒼὪ㚱┚⑑◊㕡㟰Ὢ⬴ℐ妋㰢⇘炻Ὢ⑒⏨烎 8 ⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉ℯ拗炻ℯ拗ˤ 9 㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉ㆹ婿天⮵Ἀ℔忻┚ˤ 10

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ⓖˤ 1

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉晾䃞Ἀ⑳ 㕘䭉⥼㚫℞ᷕ ᶨᾳ⍇⚈⯙Ὢ奢⼿⣏䵕ᾖⶍ䦳㚱⓷柴炻ㆹ䚠ᾉ 12

Ἀ悥㚫⎴シ⯙ὪἈⒼ娙ᶨ♇⇘Ἀ⯙⎗ẍ巊崘⬷㤕⎴泣㭭▭烎 13

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉䳽⮵ℯ⎗傥┯ˤ 14

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉⚈䁢䯥␿⎰䲬炻Ὢ⑒烎 15

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ὢ⏨炻ℯ拗ˤ 16

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉晾䃞Ἀ⮵Ἂ⑳㚱┚⛘㕡悥ⒼὪ⤥㺧シ炻ỮὪ␩嫃⎰Ⓖ⎰䎮␊烎℞⮎ㆹ䚠 17

ᾉ╢⤥⣏▭䦳⹎ᶲ炻Ἀ⑳悥Ὢ天ὅ月Ἂ⑳⍣⬴ㆸᾳⶍἄ┯炻⎴❳ὅ月泣㭭⍣䚋䜋⬷ 18

㤕炻Ὢ⑒烎 19

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ὢ炻ℯ拗ˤ 20

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉Ἀ- ㆹ侴⭞嫃䵲Ὢ⣏䀓ᷳ ⇵炻Ἀ冒⶙奢⼿Ἀ⮵栏⓷⎴❳⮵㈧⺢⓮炻Ἀ⮵ 21

Ἂ⑳▭ⶍἄ炻Ἀデ奢Ὢ㺧シ⭂Ⓖ㺧シ烎 2

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉ⶍἄᶲ▘ᾳ- ␊ᾳᾳṢ炻Ⓖẋ堐ㆸᾳ⮷䳬炻ⶍἄᶲ▘ᾳ ◊炻䡢⮎Ὢ㚱ᶨᾳⶍ 23

䦳ᶲ▭忚⯽▭炻⌛Ὢ⎗傥ὪἊ䛇ὪⰍ埴䵲㚫ㇻ搧炻ᷳ ⼴ᶨ㬍ᶨ㬍♇ˤỮὪ╢▘┚⬱ 24

ℐˣ㴰旚ㆾ侭Ὢ㚱┚ㆹ⑳䇕⍾䵲▘┚◊炻Ἂ- ⯌℞㗗▘┚⌛Ὢㆹ⑳天▘ᾳ⎓栏⓷▭ 25

奺刚⍣䚋䜋ỷἊ▘ᾳⰌ朊 ⼿Ⓖ⤥ˤ␩柕⃰ ㆹ䚠ᾉ⣏⭞悥䛯⇘炻ㆹ⑳㚱␩⣂␩⣂㫉 26

▭㈽姜炻Ἂ⑳悥Ⓖ傥⣈ᶨᾳ⤥⎰怑▭嗽䎮ㇳ㱽⎗ẍ⸓⇘ㆹ⑳⍣ ˤℵ≈❳℞⮎柕⃰ 27

ㆹ悥- ⎗傥墄⃭ 䔒⯙Ὢ炻斄㕤嬔⤪▘ᾳ⎓ ⏠䄁▭⓷柴炻␩Ἀ悥䛯⇘炻⯙䬿ℵ≈❳ 28

㓧⹄忶♇⍣ⶉ㞍炻悥Ὢℯᶨᾳ⎗ẍ䭉㜇⇘▭ね⼊⸽ᶳ炻㇨ẍㆹ奢⼿⤪㝄▘ᾳ⌛Ὢ⬷ 29

㤕╢- ⎴❳␊ᾳ栏⓷▘ᾳ奺刚 炻╢ᾳ䭉䎮ᶲ⯙␊㕡朊⯙ ⼿Ⓖ⤥ˤ 30

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉ㆹ⑳夳⇘╢┚WhatsAp ⹎ᶵ 悥Ὢ⬷㤕▭ỽ䓇╢⹎央Ἀ⑳▭炻Ụ᷶ ˤ 31

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ⓖ炻Ⓖˤ 32

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉Ἀ㚱ℯ夳忶⏛㚄烎 3

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉㛒夳- ℯ- Ⓖ╢␊ᾳgroup ׀炻⤥Ụㅱ娚炻Ὢ⑒烎 34

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉Ⓖ╢ᾳgroup ⹎炻Ἀ㚱ℯ夳忶Ἂ炻⎴Ἂ攳忶㚫烎 35

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉ℯˤ 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十四天

53

本謄本由E piq 編製 㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉␩Ἀ㚱ℯ㆟䔹忶娙ˬ泣㭭ᾳẋ堐⍣␿怲烎ㆹ゛夳ᶳἊ炻⎴Ἂ⁦ᶳ溆䚋䜋 1 ⬷㤕┶˭炻㚱ℯ 忶␊㧋◊烎 2 ⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉䔞℞㗪ℯ婿忶␊⹎ˤ 3 㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉䷥ᷳ ⯙Ὢ㒂㕤Ἀ▭姀ㅞ炻⯙ὪỤ᷶ Ἂ⑳ℯ⍫冯炻⤪㝄Ὢ␩嫃烎 4 ⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ὢˤ 5 㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉⤥炻ㆹṎ悥゛⮵Ἀ℔⸛崟夳炻悥䓨Ἀ嫃ᶨ嫃㚱┚⮵Ἀ⑳㕘䭉⥼㚫▭㈽姜 6 ㆾ侭ᶵ㺧▭炻⚈䁢⤥- Ἀ⑳Ụ᷶ 悥㚱Ἀ⑳▭嫃㱽ˤㆹ⑳夳⇘㚱Ṣ㈽姜㚱斄⢾䇮䞛⯶ 7 ⎴❳⅟㯋㨇⎘ᾖ吢▭ḳね炻Ἀ悥╢Ἀ▭ὃ娆⹎㚱妋忶▭ˤ椾⃰ 炻ㆹ䓨Ἀ䛯䛯▘ᾳ㈽ 8 姜炻2025 ⸜1 㚰7 嘇炻╢G1

枩ˤἈ夳⇘␊ᾳ- ℵ句┚炻ℵ句炻Ὢ炻ᶲ 9 䔒⮹⮹ˤ 10

Ἀ夳⇘䫔炷4 炸▘⹎炻ˬ㱽⛀⎬ỵ⥼⒉ἄ䁢⯳剹㤕ᷣ ▭ẋ堐炻䎮ㅱ攳婈ⶫ℔␩㧋 1

ẍᶲ徘▭ḳẞ⎹㤕ᷣ Ṍẋ炻ᶲ徘▭ḳẞ⚈泣㭭堐䣢⮯㴱⍲⼴≈ⶍ䦳屣炻Ẍ㤕ᷣ デ⇘ 12

朆ⷠ ⚘㒦ˤ泣㭭▭ᾉẞ䓙1 㚰7 嘇⻝層军Ṳ炻ḳẞ嵛ẍẌ㤕ᷣ Ᾱ㑼ㄪ⍲嬘婾䳃 13

䳃炻䁢ỽ忁ℑᾳ㚰㗪攻炻㱽⛀㛒㚱 ảỽ▭Ṍẋ˭ˤἊ⑳Ⓖ檀冰▭ḳẞἊ╢ᶲ檀悥 14

↿␿ᶨ䲣↿↢♇炻℞ᷕ 㚱ᶨ┚Ὢ䘤䎦⢾䇮㚱┚⌙晒▭ね㱩↢䎦炻⍰嬔⤪娙䞛⯶▘ᾳ 15

䨿䯦ㆾ侭䞛⯶⅟㯋㨇⎘▭⌙晒▭炻㚱┚ⶍ䦳⬱ℐ▭⓷柴▭ˤ 16

␩Ἂ⑳娙➢㛔ᶲὪἈ⑳ℯ⍣嗽䎮▭炻⌙晒⓷柴Ὢᶨẞḳ炻⎎⢾炻⯙Ὢㆹ婿Ἂ⑳ 17

Ṏ悥㚱ᾳ㑼ㄪ⯙Ὢ娙炻Ὢ⑒天䓨⣂┚拊炻⚈䁢㯠怈悥ὪἈ䞍忻㚱ᶨᾳ⓷柴炻⯙ὪỤ 18 ᷶ ⼴≈ⶍ䦳炻㈧⺢⓮⯙⎗ẍ㓞⣂┚拊ˤ 19

㇨ẍἊ⑳⎓- ⶴ㛃Ἀ夳⇘䫔炷4 炸▭㚨⸽▘⹎炻Ụ᷶ ⯙嫃⇘娙Ἀ⑳Ὢ㚱㇨晙䝆 20

▭ˤㆾ侭Ἀ悥倥⇘䏜㖍㚱⯭㮹悥嫃娙炻⌛ὪἈ㚨⇅⯙䧵㤝炻嶇ỷᷳ ⼴⯙㏝ἈⒼ⇘炻 21

␊┚㊯㍏ㆹ悥゛Ἀ- 䓨ᾳ㨇㚫Ἀ嫃嫃炻⚈䁢⎗傥Ṏ悥㛒⽭⮵Ἀ㚨℔⸛炻⤪㝄ℯḳ⮎ 2

➢䢶␩⍣ἄᶨᾳ㍐婾ˤ 23

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉⤥炻⣂嫅ˤㆹ↮ℑ怲⍣嫃炻⤥Ⓖ⤥烎ㆹ⃰ 䫼␿␊ᶨᾳ斄㕤䨿㤋▘ᾳ⃰ 炻⤥Ⓖ 24

⤥烎␩䨿㤋炻Ἂ䨿㤋䞛⯶▘ᾳ炻℞⮎ẍㆹ⌘尉姀⼿炻⯙ὪἊ10 㚰⯦▘昋㗪炻⬷㤕 25

 ▘ᾳㇻ搧ⶍ䦳塷朊⯙䘤䎦㚱ᶨ┚⎓ ▘ᾳ䨿㤋炻⌛Ὢ䨿▭ᶳ朊▘㇒◊▘┚⛘㕡⯙ 26

仢⣙炻␩⎴❳㚱┚Ἂ▘ᾳ䨿⎘“怲▘ᾳ䞛⯶Ⓖ⣈炻␩Ἂ⯙㚫㚱ᶨᾳ- Ἂ⶚䴻忂⟙␿ 27

䓨ㆹ姀⼿⤥ỤὪ⯳⬯会⭂␩㧋炻⯙⻝層␿╢⣏➪炻⶚䴻Ὢ- ⯙ⒼὪἊ㇨嫃娙ὪℯṌ 28

ẋˤ 29

军㕤㱽⛀▘ᾳⲿỵ炻℞⮎ㆹ⑳側⼴⍰天⓷ICU 炻⍰㚱⓷⇘ㆹ⑳▭⼳ⷓ⛀昲炻斄 30

㕤⤪㝄Ἂ䓨▘┚㕡㟰Ὢ⑒⎗ẍ㍍⍿炻⚈䁢Ἂ␊ᾳ㴱⍲ᶨᾳ䞛⯶慵⺢▭ᶨᾳ㕡㟰▭炻 31

␩⎗傥␊⹎㚫怚┚㚫㚱┚Ṍẋ嫃▘ᾳ⎓- ㆹ⑳3 㚰ấ▘ᾳ㤕ᷣ ⣏㚫㈽䤐▘ᾳℏ⭡⯙ 32

╢␊⹎嫃▘ᾳ䞛⯶慵⺢▘ᾳ⓷柴炻℞⮎⯙ⒼὪℯṌẋ炻ㆹ⑳⶚䴻Ὢ㏝❳⼳ⷓ炻⚈䁢 3

ㆹ⑳㚱┚◊╢㛒㶭㤂⸽ᶳ炻ㆹ⑳⤥暋⍣娙␿䓨Ἀ倥炻娙␊ᾳ㕡㟰Ὢ⎰怑Ⓖ⎰怑␩㧋 34

▭ˤ␩⼴Ἦㆹ⑳ẚὪ㚱❳妋婒㚫炻句⇘⍣╴❳栏⓷Ἂ⑳奒冒⍣妋慳䔒␊ᶨẞὪ⑑◊ 35

ḳ䓨⯭㮹䞍炻⯙ⒼὪ⤥ỤἊ㇨嫃⯙娙ℯṌẋ忶炻Ὢ炻␩␊ᾳ⯙Ὢㆹ゛嫃䔒ˣ㼬㶭䔒 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十四天

54

本謄本由E piq 編製 ▭ˤ 1 ⎎⢾柕⃰ Ἀ⓷▘ᾳ⓷柴⯙娙炻⮳㖍㚱⯭㮹奢⼿娙ˬἈ怠ᷳ ⇵⯙⤥䧵㤝炻⼴Ἦ⯙ 2 ⤥Ụ⬴ℐ㏝Ⓖ⇘˭炻␩ㆹ奢⼿␊ᾳ婒㱽Ὢ⤥ῷ枿炻Ṏ悥⮵ㆹ⎴ㆹ▭⛀昲Ὢ⤥Ⓖ℔ 3 ⸛ˤ⚈䁢䫔ᶨ炻⤪㝄ㆹ怠冱▘昋㗪炻ㆹ▭暣娙number ㆹ悥䓨❳⣏⭞⎗ẍ䥩Ṣㇻ䓨 4 ㆹ炻ㆹ⽆Ἦ悥ℯ娙忶Ⓖ央▭ˤ䫔Ḵ炻ㆹ⑳㏆␩⣂㫉▭Ṍ㳩㚫炻ẚ㚱␩- 㭷ᾳ㗇㛇▭ 5 ⶍ䦳㚫嬘炻ㆹ䛯Ⓖ⇘ㆹ⑳㚱怲ᶨ㧋Ὢㆹ⑳ ⼿Ⓖ⣈⤥炻怲ᶨ㧋Ὢㆹ⑳Ⓖ德㖶炻Ⓖ⍣ 6 ⎴⣏⭞⍣㹅忂炻㇨ẍἊ␊ᶨ䧖␩ῷ枿▭炻ㆹὪ⬴ℐⒼ㍍⍿▭ˤ 7 ⎴❳柕⃰ ㇨嫃炻䃉婾ὪWhatsAp ㆾ侭Ὢ㚫嬘䲨抬炻⤪㝄ἊὪ奒冒㚱⍣炻⌛Ὢ 8 ▘ỵ⯭㮹Ὢ㚱⍣⇘ⶍ䦳㚫嬘炻Ἂ䳽⮵Ὢ⎗ẍ䛯⇘ㆹ⑳妶婾䔒Ἂ⑳天㯪▭◊炻⊭㊔Ἂ 9 ㇨嫃嬔⤪天⮯ᾳ⎰⎴㍐侣炻␩⤪㝄⌛Ὢ天ℵ嫃炻ㆹ⯙⎗ẍℵ嫃⣂┚斄㕤⎰⎴㍐侣▘ 10

ᾳ⓷柴ˤ 1

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉ㆹ⑳忚ᶨ㬍⃰ 嫃ˤ⓷䔒Ἀ柕⃰ ㆹ⑳F4 䛯⇘▘ᾳWhatsAp 佌䳬炻塷朊 12

溆㧋㰢⭂⑑◊Ṣ⎗ẍ≈ℍ烎 13

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉⌛Ὢ- ⒎炻⤪㝄- 㚱⎎⢾ᶨᾳWhatsAp ▘ᾳ⎓ ⣏䵕ᾖⒼ䞍斄㲐䳬⭂⑑ 14

◊ˤ 15

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉Ὢ炻⣏䵕ᾖ斄㲐䳬ˤ 16

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ὢ炻␩▘ᾳὪ䔞⇅㚱┚Ṣ⎗傥Ὢ┚- ㆹ⑳㚱␤䰚▭炻䚜ねὪ娙Ἀ⑳゛⸓ㇳ䓐Ἂ 17

⑳▭ⶍ䦳ᶲ▭䞍嬀炻゛ℍ⯙ㆹ⑳⯙㚫≈Ἂℍ⍣炻Ὢˤ 18

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉⌛Ὢ℞⮎Ἂ⑳天㯪炻Ἀ⑳㚫≈▭烎 19

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ὢ炻Ὢ炻Ὢㆹ⑳⍣⎴⣏⭞嫃炻ㆹ⑳䔞⇅ㆸ䩳▘昋㗪ㆹ⑳Ὢ㚫- ⶍ䦳▭炻Ἀ⑳⎗ 20

ẍ忶♇⸓ㇳ䓨⺢嬘ˤ⤪㝄Ὢ⯭㮹天⸓ㇳ炻ㆹ⑳㚱⎎ᶨᾳ⎓佑ⶍ䳬炻ⶴ㛃⎗傥⸓ᶳ℔ 21

℔⧮⧮▘┚◊炻㇨ẍㆹ⑳⺢䩳␿㚱ℑ怲炻ᶨ怲Ὢ⸓⯭㮹炻ᶨ怲Ὢ⸓ⶍ䦳▭炻Ὢˤ 2

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉⎎⢾㚱ᾳ㈽姜炻⯙Ὢ娙㈧⺢⓮攟㛇㛒傥⯽䣢ᾅ╖▭炻Ἀ姀Ⓖ姀⼿烎 23

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ὢˤ 24

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉Ἀ- ⤪㝄ㆹ⑳⍣䔒906 枩炻G1

Ἀ╢⹎句炻Ἀ姀⼿␊ 25

ᾳ㈽姜烎 26

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ὢˤ 27

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉⯙␊ᾳ␩▭㈽姜炻Ἀ▭嫃㱽Ὢ溆烎 28

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ὢ炻℞⮎␊ᶨᾳ嫃㱽⌛Ὢ昌␿Ὢ㈽姜炻℞⮎ㆹ⑳㛔幓ㆹ⑳冒⶙⥼⒉悥㚱⍣天㯪 29

Ἂ⑳↢䣢䔒ᾳᾅ╖ᾳ㬋㛔炻␩Ἂ⑳▘ᾳ彗妋⯙娙炻Ἂ␊ᾳὪᶨᾳ⓮㤕▭ㄋἳ炻⯙Ὢ 30

▘ᾳ慹柵⯙Ⓖ㚫㉓曚↢♇▭ˤ 31

␩ㆹ⑳▿娎⇘⤥- Ⓖ姀⼿␿Ἂ9 㚰ấ⭂10 㚰ấ炻⯙䳪㕤偗䓨▘⻝ᾅ╖▭∗ 32

㛔炻ỮὪ⯙怖␿▘ᾳ⎓ ₡拊▭ˤ␩ㆹ⑳㚱⎴泣㭭嫃炻嫃䔒娙ˬ┪炻Ἀ㟡㒂⎰䲬炻 3

Ἀㅱ娚天䓨ᾳ㬋㛔ㆹ⑳˭炻␩䃉婾ὪṌ㳩㚫⍰⤥炻ảỽⶍ䦳㚫㚱㍸⇘␊㧋炻悥㚱䇕 34

⍾⇘炻␩⼴Ἦ㚨⼴⍣⇘╢ᾳṌ㳩㚫▘⹎䚜㍍⓷⇘ὗ䓇炻⌛Ὢ⬷㤕▘ᾳ炻Ἂ⯙ㅱ㈧⯙ 35

娙㚫䓨␊ᶨᾳᾅ晒╖▭㓞㒂▭㬋㛔䓨ㆹ⑳▭炻ỮὪ╢⼴Ἦ炻Ἂ⑳ᾳ䇰㛔⯙ὪἊ偗䓨 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十四天

5

本謄本由E piq 編製 ᾳ㬋㛔炻ỮὪ⎒Ὢ⎗ẍ䓨ㆹ⑳⥼⒉冒⶙⍣䛯炻⯙Ⓖ⎗ẍ䘤㓦↢⍣炻␩⌛ὪἊ㚱ᾳ 1 ˪ᾅ⭮⋼嬘˫ˤ 2 ␩℞⮎ㆹ⑳昌␿Ὢ天Ⰽ埴⎰䲬塷朊▭ℏ⭡ᷳ ⢾炻℞⮎ㆹ⑳悥Ὢ㑼⽫▘ᾳᾅ╖䨞 3 䪇Ὢ⑒䛇Ὢ屟␿炻Ὢ⑒䛇Ὢ㚱ᾅ晄⇘▘ᾳ⯳剹ˤ㇨ẍ╢␊ᾳね⼊⸽ᶳ炻ㆹ⑳ℵ忚ᶨ 4 㬍⯙Ὢ天❳Ἂᾳ炷English Spoken 炸炻⌛Ὢ岋ᾅ晒▘┚⎓炷English 5 Spoken 炸▭Ṣ炻奒冒忶♇妋慳䔒▘ᾳᾅ╖▭ℏ⭡炻⎴❳䓙ㆹ⑳▭伖恎▘朊⸓ㇳ⍣ 6 ㇻ暣娙㞍㟠␿␊ᾳᾅ╖Ὢ㚱⌛Ὢ⎰- ⶚䴻Ὢ䓇㓰▭炻Ὢᾅ⇘▭ˤ␩➢㕤␊㧋◊⯙Ὢ 7 娙炻Ἂ䓨␿- ⤪㝄ㆹ⑳天䯥▘ấ˪ᾅ⭮⋼嬘˫炻ỮὪㆹ⑳Ⓖ⎗ẍ䓨埿⛲▭炻␩ㆹ⑳ 8 Ⓖ㚫䯥␊ấ◊ˤ㇨ẍ㚨⼴⯙⎒Ὢ䃉⣰⯙㍍⍿⯙娙Ἂ⥳䳪悥ℯ䓨⇘ᾳ㬋㛔炻ㆹ⑳㶐Ὢ 9 ⼿ᾳ∗㛔╢⹎炻ỮὪ㚱ᶨ㧋◊⯙Ὢ娙炻ㆹ⑳䡢ᾅ⯙娙炻ᾳᾅ╖䛇Ὢ⎗ẍᾅ⇘ㆹ⑳▘ 10

ᾳ⯳剹炻Ὢˤ 1

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉侴␊ᾳἈ⑳Ὢ㚱 ◊⍣䡢ᾅ▭烎 12

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉ℯ拗ˤ 13

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉⤥⣂Ṣ悥娙 㱽⛀ᷣ ⷕ℞⮎Ὢ⌛Ὢ⎫≃ᶵ妶⤥▭ˤ㚱⤥⣂㊯㍏炻Ṏ悥暋 14

⃵炻⚈䁢Ἀ㚱ⶖⒼ⣂Ḵ⋫㇞炻㇨ẍ⣏⭞悥㚱⣏⭞▭䛯㱽ˤ␊ẞḳẞ䘤⯽⇘␩㧋㧋炻 15

ㆹ婿⣏⭞悥Ⓖ゛炻侴Ἀ⑳▭㕘▭䭉⥼㚫䔞䃞悥Ⓖ゛炻ㆹ゛⓷ᶳἈ▭⯙Ṳ㫉Ἀ↢♇  16

嫱炻ㆾ侭⯙䀓䀥␊ẞḳẞ炻Ἀ㚱ℯ℞Ṿ◊゛⎴⥼⒉㚫墄⃭ 烎 17

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ὢ炻⣂嫅⣏⭞䓨␿㨇㚫ㆹˤⒼ⤥シ⿅炻⚈䁢悥⌛Ὢ⣒彃愠炻ㆹⒼὪ゛嫃デね 18

◊炻㇨ẍ. .

19

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉㖶炻㖶ˤ 20

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉ㆹ⃀慷⸛⽑ᶳˤⒼ⤥シ⿅炻ㆹ侴⭞▭ね䵺Ὢ⚈䁢⌛Ὢ 㱽⛀䛇Ὢ⣒彃劎炻㇨ẍ 21

㚱⤥⣂⥼⯰炻ỮὪㆹṲ㖍ⒼὪ゛忶♇❳⿐炻㇨ẍ忶♇嫃␊┚◊炻ᶵ忶ㆹ゛堐忼䔒炻 2

ἄ䁢㱽⛀炻䓙ㆹ⑳Ⓖ嬀炻⌛Ὢ㍐侣冲㱽⛀ᷳ ⼴炻⚈䁢㍐侣␿炻℞⮎ㆹ⑳悥天㈧㑼䔒 23

⯙Ὢ娙炻⥳䳪ᾳⶍ䦳悥天两临忚埴炻ㆹ⑳㖶䞍Ὢ彃劎炻ỮὪㆹ⑳⤥デ】㚱ᶨ䎕ᶵ暊 24

ᶵ㡬▭⥼⒉炻㖶䞍忻天䓨Ṣ娙炻㖶䞍忻㚫㚱揲㯋炻Ἂ⑳悥ẚ偗ᶨ滲⍣ 炻ᾳᾳ悥娙 25 ᷕ 徼゛崘炻ㆹ⑳ℯᶨᾳὪ゛䔁ㆨỷᾳỵ炻⍣䇕怠䤐␊┚⽆Ἦℯ炻ỮὪ⯙Ὢ⚈䁢ᾳ屔 26

ả⽫炻ᾳᾳ╴ỷˬⒼ゛ ˭炻 ⇘句⍣⯙⽵Ⓖ⇘ ˤ 27

昌␿⣏䵕ᾖ炻ẚ㚱℞Ṿ⯳剹▭ḳ⊁炻ẚ゛㏆⤥⯭㮹冯⯭㮹ᷳ 攻▭斄Ὢ炻ẚ㚱⤥ 28

⣂▘┚㳣≽ˤᶵ忶ㆹ悥ⒼὪ゛堐忼ㆹ⑳ ␿⸦⣂◊炻ㆹὪ゛堐忼▘ᾳ⚘暋溆炻Ὢ⮵ 29

㕤ㆸᾳ楁㷗ˣㆸᾳ䣦㚫ᶲ炻ㆹ⑳␊ᶨ䎕␊┚␩▭⯭㮹炻䓙Ḅ◊悥Ⓖ嬀炻┙┙㍍ㇳ炻 30

⑑◊悥天⓷炻ⶍ䦳⍰ⒼὪ娙⤥䅇炻ℐ悐悥天月ỷ┚⮰⭞ˣ栏⓷炻䓂军᷶ ⼳ⷓ⃰ 军⎗ 31

ẍ⸓⇘ㇳˤ㚱┚㱽ἳᶲ炻ㆹ⑳ẚ天⓷❳㓧⹄悐攨ˤ 32

Ἀ婿ᶳᶨᾳᶱ€ᶱ▭ᶨᾳ⣏䵕ᾖ炻㚱Ḅ⎗傥⎗ẍ䓙ㆹ⑳␊┚␩▭⯭㮹⍣ⷞỷ 3

 烎侴⭞ḳ⼴䛯ᶨ⭂㚫㚱⤥⣂⎗ẍ ⼿㚜⤥炻⊭㊔ㆹ冒⶙ㆹ悥ㆸ㖍⓷冒⶙溆㧋⎗ẍ 34

 ⤥┚ˤỮὪ䔞℞㗪炻ㆹ⑳ℐ悐Ṣ⶚䴻䚉␿ㆹ⑳▭㚨⣏傥≃炻⍣娵䁢 䔞℞㗪娵䁢 35

㚨┙▭ḳ炻㇨ẍㆹṲ㖍⯙䬿↢⇘♇炻⌛Ὢ䀓䀥塓Ṣ㊯屔炻ㆹ悥天↢♇⬴ㆸ❳炻ㆹ䚉 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十四天

56

本謄本由E piq 編製 ᾳ屔ả炻⮯ㆹ䞍▭◊⎴⣏⭞嫃䔒ˤㆹⶴ㛃䴻忶Ṳ㫉▭倥嫱㚫⎗ẍ⼿⇘ᶨ┚㓡┬炻䃉 1 婾Ὢ㓧䫾ᶲㆾ侭䚋䭉ᶲ炻ㆾ侭╢ㆸᾳ⣏䵕ᾖ▘ᾳ枭䚖ᶲ炻ㆹ婿Ὢ⑒⎗ẍ⣂┚㓧⹄▭ 2 ⋼≑烎 3 ㆹⶴ㛃⬷䤷剹㇨㚱▭⯭㮹䴻忶Ṳ㫉悥⎗ẍㄊㄊ⸛⽑䔒炻⎗ẍ慵㕘攳⥳䔒ˤ⤥⣂ 4 嫅㚱倥嫱㚫⎗ẍ䓨ᶨ㫉㨇㚫ㆹ⑳炻⮯ㆹ⑳゛嫃ˣ㇨䞍▭◊嫃ᶨ㫉炻⣂嫅ˤ 5 㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉⼸⃰ 䓇炻Ἀ℞⮎Ὢ㍸Ṍ␿⣏慷▭嫱㒂▭炻ㆹ⑳⚈䁢㗪攻斄Ὢ炻Ṏ悥⚈䁢 6 㚱⤥⣂⎗傥ⒼὪ㚨ᷣ 天䇕嬘▭ℏ⭡炻ㆹ⑳Ⓖ傥⣈╢倥嫱㚫ᶲ檀ᶨᶨ⯽䣢↢♇炻ỮὪ 7 Ἀ㍸ὃ▭屯㕁Ὢ⮵㕤ㆹ⑳⍣䞼䨞ẞḳ▭⥳㛓Ὢ㚱朆ⷠᷳ ⣏▭ἄ䓐炻㇨ẍ⯙␊ᶨ㧋 8 ◊炻ㆹ⑳悥゛⣂嫅Ἀˤ 9 ᷣ ⷕ炻ㆹℯ℞Ṿ⓷柴ˤ 10

映┇⹟㱽⭀烉ㆹ゛⓷ᶳ㚱ℯ℞Ṿ⬷䤷剹▭⯭㮹▭ẋ堐⼳ⷓ゛⓷Ἂ烎Ὢˤ 1

㛶Ⲙ䏎⣏⼳ⷓ烉ᷣ ⷕ炻㚫㚱⮹⮹WhatsAp 㚫⓷ᶨ⓷Ἂ炻Ὢˤ 12

Ἀ⤥炻⼸䓇炻柕⃰ Ἀ嫃⇘炻㚱ᶨᾳ昶㭝⯙Ὢ娙Ἀ⑳㚱┚㈽姜炷English 13

Spoken 炸ỷ⎹⬷㤕⍵㗈ᷳ ⼴炻ẚ㚱ℯ嶇忚ⶍἄ炻␩Ἀ⯙㍸⇘娙Ἀ㚱▿娎忶⯙ 14

炷English Spoken 炸炻Ὢ⑒烎 15

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ὢˤ 16

㛶Ⲙ䏎⣏⼳ⷓ烉␩ㆹ㚱ᶨ┚▭WhatsAp ⯙゛䓨Ἀ䛯ᶳ炻Ṏ悥ㆹ婿䚠ᾉ⎗ẍ⋼≑⇘⥼⒉㚫⍣ 17

䛯ᶳ䔞㗪▘ᾳね㱩Ὢ溆▭ˤ␩⯙゛䛯F4/ 䫔1518 枩ˤ 18

炻␊⹎⯙Ὢ25 ⸜ 19

10 㚰ㇻ桐ᷳ ⼴炻␩␊⹎夳⇘㰇䓇⯙╢␊ᾳ佌䳬ℍ朊⯙⎹ὗ䓇⯙㈽姜娙⚈䁢㚱┚㺷㯜 20

▭⓷柴炻Ὢ⑒烎 21

Ἀ嫃⯙娙ˬἈ⑳↢䲏⃰ ⼿׀炻ℯ䲏↢⎓ṢⒼ恩˭炻䃞⼴⯙Ὢ␩⎓Ἀ⑳↢䲏炻Ὢ⑒烎 23

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ὢˤ 24

⮎␊┚⓷柴ᶨ㖑⶚䴻Ὢ㏆- ↢䎦␿炻天Ἂ⑳ℵ嶇忚ˤ䃞⼴ᶳ朊Ṏ悥㚱⥼⒉➢㛔ᶲὪ 26

㈽姜Ἂ⑳ⶍ䦳 ⼿Ⓖ⤥炻Ὢ⑒烎 27

⎴ὗ⃰ 䓇⯙娙ˬὗ⃰ 䓇炻℞⮎ᶲ㫉攳㚫⶚䴻⎴Ἀ嫃㶭㤂炻⋩⚃㛇䲏㚫㭼庫♜嫡炻⤪ 29

㝄Ⓖ㬋夾㟡㸸⓷柴炻⯙䬿Ṳ㛇䲏䓨Ἀ炻ᶳ㛇䲏悥⤥暋ℵ䓨Ἀ炻⤪㝄ℯảỽ㓡┬ㆾ侭 30

岒慷㍸⋯˭炻䃞⼴ὗ䓇⯙娙ˬᶲ䲏悥Ὢ㉾ỷ炻Ⓖ⤥㖶炻ℵᶲ㛇䲏⍰Ὢ␩炻 ⶍ䦳↢ 31

䲏㸾㗪炻ⶍṢ㚫⊌≃⤥⣂˭炻䃞⼴ὗ䓇⯙ℵ娙ˬἈ⑳⎗Ⓖ⎗ẍ㸾㗪↢䲏烎˭䃞⼴ᾳ 32

⥼⒉⯙娙ˬἈ⑳⎗Ⓖ⎗ẍ ⤥ⶍ䦳烎˭⯙Ὢ㚱ᾳ␩▭ね㱩炻Ὢ⑒烎␊ᾳ⯙Ὢ柕⃰ Ἀ 3

㇨嫃娙㚱┚炷English Spoken 炸▭ね㱩烎 34

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ὢ炻Ὢˤ 35

㛶Ⲙ䏎⣏⼳ⷓ烉Ⓖ娚㗺炻ㆹℯ℞Ṿ⓷柴ˤ 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十四天

57

本謄本由E piq 編製 映┇⹟㱽⭀烉㚱ℯ℞Ṿ㴱ḳ㕡烎 1 ⋻⃫ 㙊⣏⼳ⷓ烉ᷣ ⷕ炻ㆹẋ堐㓧⹄炻ㆹ㚱⸦ᾳ⓷柴⎴Ἂ㼬㶭ᶳˤ 2 Ὢ炻ㆹẋ堐㓧⹄▭炻椾⃰ ⣂嫅Ἀ♇䓨嫱ὃ⃰ 炻ㆹὪ㚱⸦ᾳ⓷柴⎴Ἀ䯉䞕␩㼬㶭 3 ᶳ┓ˤㆹ⃰ 䛯䔒Ἀ▭嫱Ṣ⎋ὃ炻ㆹ⑳⍣WS12/2091 枩炻␩ㆹ⑳⍣䛯䔒Ἀ73 㭝 4 炷2 炸▘⹎炻␩Ἀ␊⹎⯙嫃␿炻╢2024 ⸜9 㚰13 嘇炻䭉䎮嗽湶䴻䎮╢ˬ⬷䤷剹 5 ⣏ᾖgroup ˭堐䣢炻㴰旚嗽㚦䴻㓞⇘⬷⽿敋⢾▭䘥刚炷English Spoken 炸䘬㈽ 6 姜炻᷎ Ἦ⇘䭉䎮嗽㞍娊炻℞⼴湶䴻䎮ℵ堐䣢炻䴻ᶱ⎵㴰旚⒉⇘⟜ⶉ㞍⼴炻㛒娵䁢㚱 7 ⓷柴炻᷎ ⶚暊攳⯳剹▭ˤἈ夳Ⓖ夳⇘Ἀ冒⶙䔞㗪▘ᾳ嫱ὃ㚱␩㧋嫃烎 8 Ὢ炻␩ㆹ⑳⃰ ⍣䛯- ㆹⷞἈ䛯䛯ᶨᾳ㔯ẞ炻⤥Ⓖ⤥烎ㆹ⑳⍣B2/1737 炻䛯Ἀ 9 ⎗Ⓖ⎗ẍ⸓⇘ㆹ⑳烎␊ᾳ⯙Ὢㆹ⑳㴰旚嗽- 㓧⹄㴰旚嗽▭ᶨᾳ䲨抬♇▭ˤ⤪㝄Ἀ䛯 10

䔒▘ᾳℍ朊䲨抬▭屯㕁⯙Ὢ␩㧋嫃▭炻⯙Ὢ斄㕤9 㚰13 嘇▘ᾳ▭- 䘤䓇␿┚⑑◊ 1

ḳ炻⯙Ὢ␩㧋嫃▭炻Ⱦ炷English Spoken 炸⌛Ὢ炷English Spoken 炸ㆾ侭 12

Ὢ▘ᾳ⯙Ὢ炷English Spoken 炸ȿ炷ˬ䓙ᶳ徘Ṣ⢓⯙Ὢ⎴⎴ḳ╢␊ᶨᾳ14:10 13

㗪炻⯙Ὢ24 ⸜▭9 㚰1 3 嘇忚埴夾⮇炻␩╢夾⮇▭㗪῁炻⯙Ὢ㏝⇘╢␊ᶨᾳ⬷⽿ 14

敋⢾㚱ᶨᾳ㔠慷▭⺢䭱䈑㕁炻ỮὪ␊ᾳ⯙ⒼὪᶨᾳ徫䓇忂忻▭ỵ伖♇▭炻ㆾ侭Ὢ␊ 15

ᶨᾳ干廃▭䵲⿍忂忻ˤ ˭ 炸⌛Ὢㆹ⑳㇨媪▭䵲⿍⬱ℐ忂忻炻Ⱦ 炷English 16

Spoken 炸ȿ炷ˬ㇨ẍ⯙Ὢ㛒傥嫱⮎㈽姜炻ỮὪㆹ⑳䔁シ⇘⬷⽿敋⢾℞⮎Ὢ㚱ᶨᾳ 17

▭㔜橼▭侣ᾖⶍ䦳炻㇨ẍ⯙Ὢ䓨␿湶⃰ 䓇炻⌛ὪἊ⑳▭䭉䎮嗽䴻䎮ᶨ┚䀓嬎⬱ℐ▭ 18

㊯䣢炻㈽姜Ṣ㠩炷嬗枛炸⃰ 䓇Ṏ悥Ὢ䞍忻Ṳ㫉╢- Ṳ㫉⌛Ὢ夾⮇▭䳸㝄炻㖍㛇⯙Ὢ 19

24 ⸜8 㚰29 炻⣏䲬⯙Ὢℑ溆⋲揀▭˭炸炻␊ᾳὪㆹ⑳䲨抬♇▭炻ㆹ䚠ᾉἈ䔞㗪Ὢ 20

ℯ䛯忶␊ᾳ䲨抬炻┙Ⓖ┙烎 21

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉┙ˤ 2

⋻⃫ 㙊⣏⼳ⷓ烉嶇ỷㆹ䓨Ἀ䛯句⍣炻ㆹ侴⭞䛯ᶳἈ炻⤪㝄ㆹ⑳䛯ᶳᶨ枩炻ㆹ⑳夳⇘▘ᾳ䲨 23

抬炻ㆹ⑳㴰旚嗽ℏ悐䲨抬⯙Ὢ炻ㆹ⑳㉱句⍣⮹⮹ᶳᶨ枩炻⯙娙ᾳ㈽姜炻Ὢ炻▘ᾳ 24

炷English Spoken 炸⯙Ὢ炷English Spoken 炸炻⌛Ὢ娙ᾳ䘤㲉先旣ỷᾳ崘 25

䀓↢⎋▭ˤ 26

嶇ỷㆹ⑳ℵ⍣ᶳᶨ枩炻ㆹ⑳⯙䔞㗪ㆹ⑳夳⇘ᾳ㗪攻⎴❳㖍⫸⯙Ὢ9 㚰13 嘇炻 27

⯙⍣⇘⬷⽿敋▘⹎ˤ␩ㆹ⑳㟡㒂ㆹ⑳䲨抬炻Ṏ悥⼙Ỷ␿┚䚠▭炻䔞㗪▭㈽姜ㆹ⑳⼙ 28

Ỷ␿┚䚠⯙Ὢ娙㚱ᶨ⣏➮▭䘤㲉先旣ỷ␿ᾳ↢⎋炻Ὢ⑒烎⤥炻␊ᾳὪㆹ⑳䲨抬ˤ⎎ 29

⢾炻ㆹ⑳䛯ᶳἈ⑳冒⶙▭䲨抬炻⯙⍣F3/973 枩炻Ὢ炻␊ᾳ⯙Ὢ⬷䤷剹⣏䵕ᾖ 30

group 炻ㆹ゛⓷Ἀ╢Ⓖ╢ℍ朊烎 31

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ὢˤ 32

⋻⃫ 㙊⣏⼳ⷓ烉㇨ẍἈㅱ娚㚱䛯忶␊┚屯妲炻Ὢ⑒烎 3

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ὢ炻ℯ拗ˤ 34

⋻⃫ 㙊⣏⼳ⷓ烉╢␊⹎㇨嫃▭⯙Ὢ斄㕤9 㚰13 嘇2024 ⸜▘ᾳ⿏岒㴰旚⒉♇ ◊炻⯙娙 35

ˬ 㴰旚嗽∃Ἦ䭉䎮嗽㈦ㆹ娙㚱Ṣ㈽姜炻㈽姜⯙ὪH ⹏▘➮䘥刚炷English 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十四天

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本謄本由E piq 編製 Spoken 炸ˤ˭ㅱ娚⯙Ὢㆹ⑳柕⃰ ╢䚠⹎䛯⇘▘➮炻ˬ䴻ᶱ⎵㴰旚⒉ⶉ㞍⼴炻㙓㗪 1 㰺㚱䘤䎦⓷柴暊攳⯳剹炻ᶵ忶㴰旚㍸愺㈧⺢⓮䈑ẞ䔁シᶵ天旣⠆忂忻⍲暨㶭❳ⶍ䦳 2 䈑⑩炻⏎⇯㖍⼴⤪䘤䎦悥㚫⎗傥㚱䓨ᾉIO ˤ˭␩Ἀ悥䔞㗪㚱䛯忶␊┚妲〗炻Ὢ⑒烎 3 ␩ㆹ⎗Ⓖ⎗ẍ⎴Ἀ䡢娵ᶳ䔞㗪▘ᾳ㈽姜⯙ⒼὪ斄㕤⮯┚䘤㲉先湸ᶲᾳ䨿⹎炻侴Ὢ斄 4 㕤⣏慷▭䘤㲉先旣ỷ␿ᾳ↢ℍ⎋烎 5 ⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ὢ炻␊ᶨᾳ⿏岒Ὢ嫃䵲旣⠆忂忻ˤ 6 ⋻⃫ 㙊⣏⼳ⷓ烉Ὢ炻Ⓖ娚㗺ˤ⤥炻ㆹ⑳ℵ⎴Ἀ䛯▭䫔Ḵᾳ炷English Spoken 炸炻⍰Ὢ嫱 7 Ṣ⎋ὃˤㆹ⑳⍣Ἀ䔒Ἀ▭嫱Ṣ⎋ὃWS12/2097 枩ˤㆹ⑳䛯(3) ▘⹎炻Ἀ␊⹎Ὢ␩ 8 㧋嫃ˬῤ⼿䔁シ䘬㗗㴰旚嗽㚦㕤2024 ⸜1 㚰5 㖍⇘⬷㖴敋䓙⣑⎘军⣂ᾳ㦻Ⰼ忚 9 埴ⶉ㞍炻Ṏ㚦㕤2024 ⸜1 㚰19 㖍⇘E ⹏炷⌛ˬ⬷㲘敋˭炸⣑⎘夾⮇᷎ ㉵䄏炻 10

㴰旚嗽䔞㗪᷎ 㰺㚱㊯↢䚠斄⮩䨿⬱㌺⬀⛐⓷柴ˤ˭夳Ⓖ夳⇘Ἀ␊⹎␩㧋嫃烎 1

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ⓖˤ 12

⋻⃫ 㙊⣏⼳ⷓ烉㇨ẍ␊⹎ㆹ⑳䈥㴱ℑᾳⶉ㞍炻ᶨᾳ1 㚰5 嘇炻ᶨᾳ1 㚰19 嘇炻Ὢ⑒烎ㆹ 13

⑳⃰ 䛯炻℞⮎Ἀ╢⎎⢾ᶨấ㖑⇵▭嫱Ṣ嫱娆▘⹎㚱娛䳘⮹⮹▭㍷徘炻ㆹⷞἈ⍣䛯ᶳ 14

Ἀ⎎⢾䫔ᶨấ嫱Ṣ嫱娆炻⯙╢WS3/1658 炻Ὢ炻␊⹎斄㕤(i) ⯙Ὢ䫔ᶨᾳ炻⃰ 嫃䵲 15

2024 ⸜1 㚰5 嘇ᶲ㘅9 溆49 ↮▘ᾳⶉ㞍炻⯙Ὢ娙ˬ䫔Ḵả䭉⥼㚫ㆸ⒉⛐ 16

WhatsAp 佌䳬ᷕ 堐䣢炻⬷㖴敋㚱檀Ⰼỷ㇞㕤⋲⣄⟙㴰旚堐䣢倆⇘䆞␛炻㴰旚Ṣ⒉ 17

⇘⟜ⶉ㞍⼴㛒傥䘤䎦㸸柕炻Ữ堐䣢䲬30 㦻旬役␛忻庫䆞炻㴰旚Ṣ⒉㚦䓙⣑⎘军⋩⣂ 18

㦻忚埴ⶉ㞍炻ょ⛐⎗忚ℍ䘬ỵ伖㛒㚱䘤䎦䅺䃎䕽嶉ˤ℞⼴㚱⥼⒉婳㈧⺢⓮⬷㤕⋼≑ 19

㩊㞍檀Ⰼ㢂㝞炻ẍ䡢⭂㢂㝞ᶲ㗗⏎㚱䅺䃎䕽嶉ㆾ侭℞Ṿ⎗䔹ね㱩炻⬷㤕℞⼴⚆央堐 20

䣢⶚⬱㌺ⶍṢ䓙31 㦻军29 㦻忚埴ⶉ㞍炻᷎ 㛒䘤䎦ảỽ䅺䃎䕽嶉ˤ˭␩╢␊⹎⯙㚱 21

ᾳ旬ẞ37 ▭炻Ἀ夳Ⓖ夳⇘烎 2

⤪㝄ㆹ⑳⍣䔒Ἀ▭F3 7 炻ㆹ⑳⍣䔒F3/ 10 7 炻Ὢ炻␊ᾳ⯙ὪἈ悥䔞㗪╢␊ᾳ 23

WhatsAp group ℍ朊Ṏ悥㚱䛯忶␊ᾳ炷English Spoken 炸炻┙Ⓖ┙烎 24

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ⓖˤ 25

⋻⃫ 㙊⣏⼳ⷓ烉␊⹎⯙姀抬␿1 㚰5 嘇䘤䓇␿⑑◊ḳ炻⯙Ὢ娙ˬ㖑㘐炻⮳㘂⬷㖴檀Ⰼ埿⛲ 26

⋲⣄⟙㴰旚倆⇘䆞␛炻䴻㴰旚㩊㞍⼴㛒䘤䎦㸸柕炻Ữ㴰旚⎹埿⛲堐䣢30 㦻旬役␛ 27

忻㚨㽫䁰炻㴰旚䓙⣑⎘⇘⋩⸦㦻悥ⶉ㞍␿ᶨ㫉炻炷English Spoken 炸▭ỵ伖悥 28

㛒䘤䎦䅺䃎䕽嶉炻Ữㅱ娚Ὢ檀Ⰼ埿⛲堐䣢㑼⽫炻Ἂ⑳゛⓷⬷㤕⎗Ⓖ⎗ẍ㏝Ṣ䛯ᶨ䛯 29

檀Ⰼ▘⸦Ⰼ▭㢂㝞炻䛯ᶳ㢂㝞⹎㚱ℯ䅺䃎▭䕽嶉ㆾ侭㚫Ⓖ㚫㚱埿⛲✫⛦ㆾ侭䄁 30

柕ˤ˭Ὢ⑒烎 31

ㆹ⑳句⍣䛯⮹⮹炻ℵᶳ炻␩╢␊⹎▘ỵ䘤妲〗▭Ṣ␩嫃ˬ晾䃞ḳẞ䘤䓇⋲⣄炻 32

偗⭂Ⓖ斄ⷓ‭ㆾ侭ⶍ䦳ḳ炻Ữ婳橼婺埿⛲Ᾱ╢␊ᾳ⮵⬱ℐ䈡⇍㓷デ炻⎗⏎㏝ⷓ‭㛃 3

ᶨ㛃㢂㝞炻䫱Ἂ⑳⬱⽫ˤ˭䃞⼴⬷㤕⤥Ụ⯙ˬ㖶䘥炻ⶉ㞍⼴ℵ⏲䞍ˤ˭䃞⼴⯙⬷䤷 34

炷English Spoken 炸⯙娙ˬⒼ娚㗺ˤ˭Ἀ䔞㗪㚱䛯忶␊㭝妲〗烎 35

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ⓖˤ 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十四天

59

本謄本由E piq 編製 ⋻⃫ 㙊⣏⼳ⷓ烉ㆹ⎴Ἀℵ䡢娵ᶳ炻⯙Ὢ䔞㗪␊ᾳⶉ㞍Ṏ悥Ὢ⎴▘ᾳ䘤㲉先湸ᶲ⍣ᾳ䨿Ὢℯ斄 1 Ὢ炻℞⮎⚈䁢⋲⣄䘤䓇␿㚱┚䀓嬎嬎嘇␩㧋㧋炻┙Ⓖ┙烎 2 ⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉⎗ẍ␩嫃ˤ 3 ⋻⃫ 㙊⣏⼳ⷓ烉⤥炻嶇ỷㆹ⑳䛯㚨⼴炻Ἀ嫃䵲1 㚰19 嘇▘ᾳⶉ㞍ˤ1 㚰19 嘇ⶉ㞍ㆹ⑳ 4 ⍣䔒Ἀ▭嫱Ṣὃ娆▘⹎炻WS3/1658 炻␩╢䫔(i i) ⯙娙ˬ2024 ⸜1 㚰19 嘇 5 ᶳ⋰5 㗪57 ↮炻䭉䎮嗽湶䴻䎮╢WhatsAp 妲〗ᷕ 堐䣢ᶳ⋰㚱㴰旚ᶲ␿E ⹏⣑ 6 ⎘⼙䚠ˤ˭䃞⼴⯙⍣䛯旬ẞ17 炻Ὢ⑒烎䃞⼴ㆹ⑳⤪㝄⍣䛯旬ẞ17 炻⯙╢F3/898 7 枩炻␊⹎⯙␩㧋嫃ˬᶳ⋰㚱㴰旚ᶲ␿E ⹏⣑⎘⼙䚠炻㴰旚⮵⣒春傥㜧䛯㱽烎˭嶇ỷ 8 ⯙娙ˬ䲼⼙䚠ˤ˭Ἀ㚱⌘尉␊⹎▭⮵娙炻Ὢ⑒烎 9 ⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ⓖˤ 10

⋻⃫ 㙊⣏⼳ⷓ烉⤪㝄ㆹ⑳䛯䔒ㆹ⑳㴰旚▭屯㕁炻ㆹ⑳⎗ẍ䓨Ἀ䛯䛯炻⯙Ὢ╢B2/1354 炻␊⹎ 1

⯙Ὢㆹ⑳姀抬Ỷ䔞㗪▘ᾳ㈽姜▭㸸柕⎴❳㩊槿▘ᾳ䳸㝄ˤㆹ⑳⃰ 䛯㈽姜▭㸸柕⃰ 炻 12

㈽姜Ṣ⯙╢ᷕ 攻▘⹎炻Ἀ夳⇘ˬ㈽姜Ṣ⎒㍸ὃ⬷䤷剹㆟䔹㚱㴰旚徫䓇晙か炻䚠䇯ᷕ 13

栗䣢䁢⣑⎘ỵ伖炻䔹Ụ㈽姜⣑⎘⣒春傥㜧炻⶚忂䞍␿炷English Spoken 炸炻⎴ 14

㗪⎹1823 䳊⍾㚜⣂㚱斄㈽姜娛ね▭ỵ伖▭娛ねˤ˭夳Ⓖ夳⇘烎 15

嶇ỷ⤪㝄ㆹ⑳ℵ⍣ᶳᶨ枩炻嶇ỷἈ⯙夳⇘- ㆹ⑳ℵ⍣ᶳᶨ枩炻Ὢ炻135 ㆹ⑳ 16

䛯䛯ˤ␊⹎⯙嫃炻ᶳ朊⯙娙Ⱦ炷English Spoken 炸炱炷ˬ冒㈽姜Ṣ㚱斄㕤ᶲ徘 17

㟰ẞ炻ⶪ㮹天㯪⎴❳⯙Ὢ⌛Ὢ㍸ὃ␿ᶨ┚柵⢾屯㕁炻婳Ἀ⯙Ὢ䡢娵㓞⇘炻⚈䁢ⶪ㮹 18

⯙Ὢℯ⮯冒⶙ᾳṢ屯㕁㍸ὃ炻㇨ẍ婳Ἀ⃀⾓⮯Ὢ⚆央炻⯙Ὢ䓐ẍᶳ▭⚆㡅炻䓐⎴㧋 19

婆妨Ὢ⚆央ˤ˭炸ㆹ⑳⍣⇘1359 炻␊⹎⯙夳⇘⍇Ἦ▘ᾳ㈽姜炻1 㚰17 嘇炻⯙Ὢ 20

斄㕤1823 㴰旚嗽㓞⇘▭▘ᾳ㈽姜ˤ 21

㚨⼴炻ㆹ゛ⷞἈ⍣䛯䛯ㆹ⑳䔞㗪㚨⼴夳⇘▘ᾳね㱩炻⯙Ὢ⍣⇘1367 炻␊ᾳ⯙ 2

Ὢㆹ⑳ℏ悐⍣⇘10 㚰19 嘇▘㖍⼙␿▭䚠炻斄㕤␊ᾳ⯙Ὢ⬷㲘㦻炷⬷㲘敋烎炸炻⯙ 23

ὪἊ╢⣑⎘▘⹎䔞㗪℞⮎⯙墅␿┚⣒春傥㜧▭ˤㆹ⑳ℵ句⍣䛯䛯炻ㆹ⎴Ἀ㼬㶭ᶨ 24

溆炻⯙Ὢ╢1 㚰19 嘇▘ᾳⶉ㞍℞⮎Ṏ悥Ὢ⎴䘤㲉先湸ᶲ⍣ᾳ䨿▘⹎ℯ斄Ὢ炻⯙Ὢ 25

斄㕤▘ᾳ⣒春傥㜧▭攻柴炻␩㧋嫃. .

26

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉℞⮎ㆹ奢⼿␩㧋嫃Ἀᶱᾳἳ⫸炻ㆹ⑳溆妋㚫炷English Spoken 炸␿ᶱᾳἳ 27

⫸Ὢ㴰旚ⶉ㞍炻⚈䁢ㆹ⑳▭䎮妋⯙Ὢ炻䔞䃞Ἀ㈽姜▘㧋◊Ὢ⎗傥Ἀ娙⣒春傥㜧炻⎗ 28

傥Ὢ䘤㲉先旣⠆ㆾ侭Ὢᷳ 栆ᷳ 栆炻⤪㝄ㆹ⑳゛堐忼⯙Ὢ㴰旚Ṣ⒉Ὢ㚱♇⇘炻Ἂℯ⎗ 29

傥夳Ⓖ⇘ㆹ⑳㚫㚱䘤㲉先㜧炻␩ὪⒼὪ⤪㝄Ἂ夳⇘⬱ℐ晙か炻⚈䁢ᾳᾳ㈽姜ⒼὪ▘ 30

ᾳἊ⯙Ⓖ䎮␊烎⌛Ὢ嬔⤪Ἂ娙␊ᾳ⎓ ⣒春傥㜧Ὢ㚱- 㶐Ὢ㈽姜⣒春傥㜧▭␊ᾳ⓷ 31

柴炻Ἂ埴忶夳⇘㴰旚攨ℯ攪▭炻␩Ἂ㚫Ⓖ㚫Ⓖ↢倚烎Ⓖ㚫׀◃ˤ⌛Ὢㆹ⑳゛堐忼⯙ 32

Ὢ娙℞⮎晾䃞Ὢ㛒⽭㚱昋㗪Ὢ䚜㍍炻ỮὪἈⒼ傥⣈⏎⭂⯙Ὢ娙℞⮎㴰旚Ṣ⒉Ὢ㚱♇ 3

⇘ㆹ⑳▘ᾳ⯳剹⍣䛯忶炻侴ᶼṎ悥ㆹ⑳㚱ㇻ暣娙㚱⓷忶炻Ἂ⑳Ⓖ⎗傥Ἂ娙Ⓖ䞍忻䘤 34

㲉先䨞䪇Ὢ䓐Ⓖ䓐⼿♱ˤ 35

⋻⃫ 㙊⣏⼳ⷓ烉ㆹ㖶䘥▭ˤ⚈䁢㴰旚Ṣ⒉℞⮎Ὢ㚱╢␊㕡朊㚫ἄὃ炻Ṏ悥㚱␊㕡朊▭ὃ娆 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十四天

60

本謄本由E piq 編製 ▭ˤㆹṲ㖍⯙ⒼὪ゛⎴Ἀ彗婾␊㧋◊炻ㆹ㶐Ὢ゛⎴Ἀ㼬㶭⮹⮹炻⯙Ὢ䡢娵䔒⌛Ὢ10 1 㚰19 嘇℞⮎悥Ὢ⎴▘ᾳ䔞㗪㈽姜炻ㆾ侭ᾳ㩊㞍▭⿏岒Ὢ憅⮵╢⣒春傥㜧▘⹎炻␩ 2 㧋嫃℔Ⓖ℔⸛烎 3 ⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉⎗ẍˤ 4 ⋻⃫ 㙊⣏⼳ⷓ烉ㆹℯ℞Ṿ⓷柴ˤ 5 映┇⹟㱽⭀烉㚱ℯ℞Ṿ⓷柴烎㛶屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓˤ 6 㛶⼳ṩ屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉Ὢ炻ᷣ ⷕˣℑỵ⥼⒉炻ㆹẋ堐㕘ᶨ⯮⥼⒉㚫炷English Spoken 炸炻 7 ⌛Ὢㆹㅱ娚Ὢ㚨⼴ᶨᾳ⓷炻⤪㝄ℯ℞Ṿ⓷▭炻⯙ㅱ娚廒⇘ㆹˤ 8 映┇⹟㱽⭀烉㜄⣏⼳ⷓ炻Ἀ悥ℯ◊⓷炻Ὢ⑒烎 9 㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉ℯ炻ℯ炻晾䃞ㆹ⑳ㅱ娚Ὢ㟡㒂䦳⸷夷䪈炻ㆹ⑳Ὢ㚨⼴ᶨᾳ⓷▭ˤ 10

㛶⼳ṩ屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉⮵Ⓖỷˤ 1

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉㇨ẍἈ⓷⬴炻ㆹℵ婿ᶳㆹ㚱ℯ◊⓷ˤ 12

㛶⼳ṩ屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉⤥炻⼸䓇炻柕⃰ ẋ堐㓧⹄▭⋻⣏⼳ⷓ⓷忶Ἀᶱᾳ㈽姜▭⓷柴炻姀Ⓖ姀 13

⼿烎▘ᶱᾳ㈽姜炻ἈⒼὪ㈽姜Ṣ⏨␝烎 14

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉ㆹⒼὪ䫔ᶨ幓㈽姜Ṣˤ 15

㛶⼳ṩ屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉㈽姜▭ℏ⭡℞⮎悥Ὢ⋻⣏⼳ⷓ䓨Ἀ䛯忶ᶨ┚㔯ẞ炻ᷳ ⼴Ἀ㊱▘┚㔯ẞỘ 16

▭┓烎 17

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ⓖ炻ℯ拗ˤ 18

㛶⼳ṩ屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉㇨ẍ℞⮎ἈὪℯ彎㱽䡢娵▘┚㈽姜ᾳℏ⭡䨞䪇ὪḄ◊炻⎴Ⓖ⎴シ烎 19

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉⎴シˤ 20

㛶⼳ṩ屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉ỮὪㆹ⑳䞍忻㚱⎎⢾ᶨᾳ㈽姜Ὢ℞ᷕ ᶨᾳ⥼⒉ἄ↢▭炻ㆹ⑳ㅱ娚Ὢ䛯⇘ 21

╢F3 炾䫔983 䇰炻␊ᾳ㈽姜▭ℏ⭡Ἀ⍰䞍Ⓖ䞍▭␊烎 2

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉䞍忻ˤ 23

㛶⼳ṩ屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉䔞㗪Ἀ ㈽姜▭㗪῁炻Ἀ䞍Ⓖ䞍▭␊烎 24

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉䞍忻ˤ 25

㛶⼳ṩ屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉⼸䓇炻㈽姜▭ℏ⭡ㆹ⑳䛯⇘炻ㆹⒼ╢␊⹎嬨䓨Ἀ倥ˤㆹ廱ᶨ廱娙柴炻Ṳ 26

㛅庫㖑▭㗪῁炻㜄⣏⼳ⷓ炻⌛Ὢẋ堐⥼⒉㚫▭㜄⣏⼳ⷓ⎴Ἀ妶婾忶ᶨ┚斄㕤㏕㢂㫉 27

⸷ˣ㗪攻ὪⒼὪᶨ滲 炻↮㟤⸦⣂▭ᶨ䲣↿⓷柴炻㚱ℯ⌘尉烎 28

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉㚱ˤ 29

㛶⼳ṩ屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉䔞㗪ἈὪ娙忶ˬ䇕⍾忶↮攳♇ 炻ỮὪ䇕⍾Ⓖ⇘炻ᶵ忶␊ᾳ㈧⺢⓮⍰㚦 30

䴻娎忶゛娙㍸㖑 炻Ἀ⑳⯙㉺䳽␿▭ˤ˭姀Ⓖ姀⼿Ἀ㚱␩嫃忶烎 31

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉姀⼿ˤ 32

㛶⼳ṩ屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉ㆹⷞἈ⍣䛯䛯㔯ẞ⣦WS3/16 0 枩炻Ὢ⯙Ṳ㫉▭倥嫱炻Ἀ庫㖑⇵㍸ὃ▭ 3

ᶨấ昛徘炻╢䫔(3) ⮷㭝炻16 0 枩▭䫔(3) ⮷㭝炻␊⹎⮓Ὢ娙╢2024 ⸜10 㚰 34

21 嘇冱埴▭䫔⋩Ḵ⯮䭉⥼㚫䫔ℕ㫉ℐ橼⥼⒉㚫嬘ᷕ 炻⬷㤕⯙㚦㍸嬘⚈䁢䫔3 ⹏军 35

䫔5 ⹏⶚䴻⬴ㆸ㏕㢂炻⎗ẍ╢1 㚰⇅⯙㍸㖑攳⯽㏕⺢䫔1 ⹏⎴䫔2 ⹏▭䪡㢂炻侴 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十四天

61

本謄本由E piq 編製 ⍿⼙枧▭㦻⬯ᷣ 天䁢⬷ṩ敋ˤ˭夳Ⓖ夳⇘烎 1 ⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉䛯⇘ˤ 2 㛶⼳ṩ屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉ㆹ⑳䞍忻- ㆹⒼℐ悐⎴Ἀ嫃㗺ˤ▘ᶨ㭝㚨Ⰰ▘⹎ㅱ娚Ὢ㚱娙Ἀ⑳⯙Ὢ䵕 3 ㊩⍇枸䬿ⶍ䦳炻⯙ℯ䓨Ἂ㍸㖑⇘▭ˤἈṲ㛅㇨嫃▘ẞḳ炻⌛Ὢ㉺䳽Ἂ⑳㍸㖑炻ὪⒼ 4 Ὢ⯙Ὢ␊ẞḳ⭂Ὢ␊ẞḳὪ℞ᷕ ᶨ㫉␊烎 5 ⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉℞ᷕ ᶨ㫉ˤ 6 㛶⼳ṩ屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉ㆹ⑳⍰ℵ廱ᶨ廱娙柴ˤ柕⃰ ㅱ娚ⒼὪ⤥侸ᷳ ⇵▭㗪῁炻⥼⒉㚫▭㜄屯㶙 7 ⣏⼳ⷓὪ⓷忶Ἀ㚱ℯ⽆Ἦ夳忶⏛侨炷嬗枛炸␊ᶨᾳṢ▭炻姀Ⓖ姀⼿㡅⓷柴烎 8 ⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉⏛㚄ˤ 9 㛶⼳ṩ屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉⏛㚄␊ᶨᾳṢ炻姀Ⓖ姀⼿␊㡅⓷柴烎 10

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉姀⼿ˤ 1

㛶⼳ṩ屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉Ἀ⯙娙ℯ▭炻Ⓖ娵嬀Ἂ炻ℯ⎴Ἂ䡘忶朊▭炻姀Ⓖ姀⼿Ἀ␩▭䫼㟰烎 12

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ὢˤ 13

㛶⼳ṩ屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉嶇ỷ㜄⣏⼳ⷓ⯙㚱⓷Ἀ炻␩␊ᾳ泣㭭▭奺刚Ὢ溆炻姀Ⓖ姀⼿⣏㤪㚱烎 14

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ὢˤ 15

㛶⼳ṩ屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉ㆹ゛偗⭂ᶨᶳ┚屯㕁炻℞⮎㜄⣏⼳ⷓ悥㚱䓨Ἀ䛯忶▭炻㇨ẍㆹ⤥偗⭂柕 16 ⃰ ⒼὪ␩▭シ⿅炻ᶵ忶ㆹ䓨Ἀ䛯ᶨ䛯ˤ╢屯㕁⣦F4 ( IO ) / 䫔1015 枩炻␊ᾳㅱ娚 17

ὪἈ㍸ὃ䓨⥼⒉㚫炻⯙ὪἈ⑳⣏䵕ᾖWhatsAp group ▭㔯㛔炻␊ᾳㅱ娚Ὢ庫㖑 18

- ㆸấㆹ婿悥⤥Ụ⸦䘦枩▭download 炻℞⮎Ὢ㭼庫㖑▭㗪㭝ㆹ⑳夳⇘炻2024 ⸜ 19

9 㚰7 嘇炻Ὢ⑒烎 20

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ὢˤ 21

㛶⼳ṩ屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉⤪㝄ㆹℯ姀拗炻␊⹎ㅱ娚㚫䛯⇘炻Ἀ埴句⍣䫔⋩埴╍炻嶛≽◆炻ㅱ娚嬲 2

␿  庫枪悐▭埴㔠炻㚱斄▭⎴ḳ⎗傥␊ᾳ句⼿⣒⣂ˤ ㆹ⑳ㅱ娚夳⇘㚱ỵ泣㭭 23

Steven Choi⃰ 䓇炻夳Ⓖ夳烎 24

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉夳⇘ˤ 25

㛶⼳ṩ屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉2024 ⸜9 㚰7 嘇ᶳ⋰2 㗪0 ↮40 䥺ㅱ娚Ὢ炻⯙㚱⮓␊ᾳ⬷䤷炻泣 26

㭭Steven Choi 炻ˬㆹὪ泣㭭ⶍ䦳䴻䎮Steven Choi ˭炻夳Ⓖ夳烎␊ỵṢ⢓Ἀ 27

Ὢ娵嬀▭炻Ὢ⑒烎 28

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉娵嬀ˤ 29

㛶⼳ṩ屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉␊ỵṢ⢓ㆹ▭䎮妋㚱ℯ拗␊烎⯙ὪἊὪ倚䧙ẋ堐泣㭭ᶨ嶗㚱⍫冯▭烎 30

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉㚱ˤ 31

㛶⼳ṩ屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉ᶳᶨỵ⃫ 泣㭭㣲⃰ 䓇炻Ἀ娵嬀ᾳ␝烎 32

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉娵嬀ˤ 3

㛶⼳ṩ屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉悥Ὢ␩⏨␝烎 34

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉ℯ拗ˤ 35

㛶⼳ṩ屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉Ἀ⯙⽆♇ℯ夳忶⏛㚄⃰ 䓇▭炻Ὢ⑒烎 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十四天

62

本謄本由E piq 編製 ⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉ℯ夳忶ˤ 1 㛶⼳ṩ屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉㖊䃞ㆹ⑳╢␊ᶨᾳ㔯ẞ⣦炻ㆹ⑳⍰⌛䭉嶛⍣1057 枩炻╢2024 ⸜9 㚰 2 17 嘇ㆹ⑳夳⇘1 溆26 ↮炻泣㭭▭Steven Choi ╢⣏䵕ᾖWhatsAp 3 group ℍ朊␩㧋嫃炻Ἂ娙ˬᶲ徘Ὢㆹ㕡▭シ夳炻㱽ἳᶲ㰺㚱䈡⇍夷⭂炻ㆹ⑳Ṏ⶚㊱ 4 天㯪ㇻ忶⍣㴰旚嗽Ḯ妋忶炻Ἂ⑳⎴㧋堐䣢㱽ἳℯ䈡⇍㊯㖶斄㕤炷English 5 Spoken 炸⎗⏎䓐ἄ冒ᾅ嬟㜧䓐炻㴰旚嗽Ṏ⎒㗗斄㲐娚䈑⑩㚫⏎⭡㖻⍿⇘⢾Ἦ㹳㒦 6 ẍ农䘤䓇シ夳ˤ˭夳Ⓖ夳烎 7 ⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉䛯⇘ˤ 8 㛶⼳ṩ屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉␊ᶨ⹎泣㭭▭Steven Choi Ὢ娙Ἂ⑳㊱天㯪ㇻ⍣㴰旚嗽Ḯ妋炻Ἀ姀Ⓖ 9 姀⼿Ὢ㊱怲ᾳ▭天㯪烎 10

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉ㆹ⑳㱽⛀天㯪ˤ 1

㛶⼳ṩ屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉Ἀ天㯪Ἂ ┚Ḅ◊烎 12

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉ㆹWhatsAp 悥㚱⮓▭炻娙⎗Ⓖ⎗ẍ悥⓷ᶨ⓷␊ᾳ㴰旚㚱斄␊ᾳ炷English 13

Spoken 炸䓐Ⓖ䓐⼿┯ˤ 14

㛶⼳ṩ屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉␩␊ᾳ⯙ὪἊ䓨Ἀ▭䫼㟰炻Ὢ⑒烎 15

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉ℯ拗ˤ 16

㛶⼳ṩ屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉嫃⇘炷English Spoken 炸ㆹ゛偗⭂ᶨᶳ炻ㆹ⑳䎮妋Ἀ⯙␊ᾳ䘤㲉先 17

㜧▭ᶨ┚䇕⍾忶䦳ᶨ┚侫ㄖ℞Ṿ䈑㕁▭嫃㱽炻ㆹ⎗Ⓖ⎗ẍⷞἈ⍣䛯Ἀ▭嫱Ṣ昛徘 18

㚠炻ㅱ娚╢㔯ẞ⣦WS12/2090 䇰炻ℵ句┚▭⛘㕡炻ㅱ娚Ὢ夳⇘Ἀ▭昛徘㚠䫔(f) 19

悐↮⯙Ὢ嫃䘤㲉先㜧▭⓷柴炻夳Ⓖ夳烎 20

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉䛯⇘ˤ 21

㛶⼳ṩ屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉␊ᶨ⹎⤥⾓␩嫃炻ㆹ⑳⣏⭞⎗ẍ䛯⇘Ἀ溆⮓▭炻㇨ẍㆹⒼ㚫㭷晣⫿悥嬨 2

↢♇ˤ⯙69 㭝娙ˬ㒂䫔Ḵả䭉⥼㚫䎮妋炻ा搧╖ỵ䨿怲ⶍ䦳㇨㍉䓐ᷳ ⮩䨿⬱㌺炻 23

⊭㊔䘤㲉先㜧⍲䚠斄ᾅ嬟㍒㕥炻⯙╢䫔Ḵả䭉⥼㚫ᶲả⇵炻䓙䫔ᶨả䭉⥼㚫⎴ⶍ䦳 24

栏⓷㰢⭂⎴❳㈡㟠炻䫔Ḵả䭉⥼㚫⯙ℯ⍫冯忶䚠斄䈑㕁▭⥳⇅怠㑯⎴❳妪岤ˤᶲả 25 ᷳ ⼴㓞⇘⯭㮹⯙⮩䨿䈑㕁炻⊭㊔䘤㲉先㜧㍸↢䔹⓷炻⊭㊔℞旣䅫⿏ˤ䫔Ḵả䭉⥼㚫 26

㛔幓⯙㚱斄ḳ⭄斄㲐炻䔞㗪⮵ἧ䓐䘤㲉先㜧⬀⛐庫⣏▭⍵⮵倚枛炻╢ⶍ䦳ἳ㚫ᷕ Ṏ 27

悥⣂㫉⺢嬘㍉䓐℞Ṿ䈑㕁ˤ˭夳Ⓖ夳⇘烎 28

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉夳⇘ˤ 29

㛶⼳ṩ屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉 ᶨ ╢␊⹎ˤ␊⹎嫃娙㍸↢䔹⓷炻⊭㊔旣䅫⿏傥炻␩ẚ㚱┚⑑◊℞Ṿ 30

䔹⓷␊烎婳⓷ˤ 31

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉℞⮎ẚẚ㚱ᾅ嬟⿏傥⎴❳德⃱⹎ˤ 32

㛶⼳ṩ屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉ㆹ⑳䛯句⍣䫔71 㭝炻㚦侫ㄖ▭℞Ṿ䈑㕁炻⊭㊔ἳ⤪⎗德⃱▭⋲德㖶ᷕ 3

䨢㜧炻Ṏ⌛2.5mᷕ 䨢㜧炻娚栆ᷕ 䨢㜧晾℟德⃱㓰㝄炻Ữ⍂⹎庫唬炻⎒㚱2.5 烼 34

烼炻⮵䨿㇞▭⮎晃ᾅ嬟≇傥⋩↮㚱旸炻℞旣䅫⿏Ṏ㛒傥䡢娵ˤ⛐㬌ね㱩ᶳ炻䫔Ḵả 35

䭉⥼㚫娵䁢2.5ᷕ 䨢㜧Ὢ㛒傥⚆ㅱ⯭㮹⍲䫔Ḵả䭉⥼㚫⮵旣䅫⿏傥䘬㟠⽫斄㲐ˤ夳 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十四天

63

本謄本由E piq 編製 Ⓖ夳⇘烎 1 ⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉夳⇘ˤ 2 㛶⼳ṩ屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉ㆹ䞍忻Ἀ怚┚Ὢ㚱嫃⇘℞Ṿ▭ᷕ 䨢㜧▭炻ㆹ⑳⍣⇘▭㗪῁炻ㆹ゛⎴Ἀ偗 3 ⭂ᶨᶳ▘ℑ䧖ᷕ 䨢㜧▭↮⇍ˤ⚈ㅱᶲ徘ね㱩炻䫔Ḵả䭉⥼㚫㚦䴻德忶Ⓖ⎴▭㷈忻⎹ 4 ㈧⺢⓮⎴❳ⶍ䦳栏⓷㞍娊㚱斄䈑㕁▭⿏岒⬱ℐ⿏⎴❳⮳㈦℞Ṿ㚱旣䅫⿏傥▭⮩䨿䈑 5 㕁炻㟡㒂䔞㗪▭屯㕁炻娚栆冐㗪⮩䨿䈑㕁᷎ ℯᶨ⣿㱽⭂㧁㸾ㆾ娵⎗嫱㚠⇞⹎炻⌛Ὢ 6 ㇨媪cert . ˤ夳Ⓖ夳⇘␊⹎烎 7 ⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉夳⇘ˤ 8 㛶⼳ṩ屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉␊⹎Ἀ⮓ˬ㟡㒂䔞㗪㇨⼿▭屯㕁˭炻Ἀ┚屯㕁Ὢ⓷怲ᾳṢㆾ侭╢⑑◊⟜ 9 ⎰烎䓐⑑◊㕡㱽⼿⇘▭␊烎 10

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉⍰ⶍ䦳㚫嬘▘⹎⓷忶炻WhatsAp ⍰⎓Ἂ⑳⚆央炻⎴❳柕⃰ 悥㚱ᶨấ䓙湫ᾈ䃞 1

㍸ὃ▭ᶨᾳ⚆央ˤ 12

㛶⼳ṩ屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉䔞㗪▭ね㱩㤪㊔侴妨炻⯙Ὢ㚱斄ẍ䘤㲉先㜧ἄ䁢⮵╖ỵ䨿㇞ᾅ嬟㍒㕥▭ 13

⬱㌺Ὢ䫔ᶨả䭉⥼㚫⶚䴻⎹⯭㮹䘤↢忂⏲炻Ṏ悥攳⥳↮㛇忚埴ˤ╢9 㚰13 ▭㗪 14

῁炻⯙㚱ᶨᾳ㈽姜炻柕⃰ 㓧⹄▭ẋ堐⣏⼳ⷓ⎴Ἀ嫃忶炻␩⯙⎹Ἀ⯽䣢娙▘ᾳ㈽姜炻 15

䔞㗪㟡㒂㓧⹄- 崟䡤㟡㒂㴰旚嗽ℏ悐▭䲨抬炻ˬ⯙Ὢ㈽姜䵲℞Ṿ◊˭Ἂ␩嫃ˤℵ䛯 16

句⍣炻Ἀ␊⹎⮓娙ˬ䭉⥼㚫⎴悐↮⯭㮹⯙㊩临⯙␊ᾳ⓷柴㍸↢䔹⓷炻德忶⣏䵕ᾖⶍ 17

䦳㚫嬘妋婒㚫⯙⎹㈧⺢⓮⎴❳ⶍ䦳栏⓷㞍娊炻⊭㊔䈑㕁㚱ℯ旣䅫⿏烎⎗Ⓖ⎗ẍ䓐℞ 18

Ṿ䈑㕁烎ẍ⍲㚱斄䈑㕁㗗⏎⶚䌚㈡Ⅾ烎˭ᶳ朊冱▭ἳ⫸ㆹⒼ徸ᾳ嫃炻ㆹ⑳⎗ẍ怚┚ 19

冒⶙䛯▭ˤ 20

⍣⇘2093 枩炻␊⹎Ὢ␩嫃炻㈧⺢⓮- ⮵Ⓖỷ炻䫔(4) ⮷㭝ˬ㈧⺢⓮⍲ⶍ䦳栏 21

⓷䔞㗪▭⚆ㅱᷣ 天普ᷕ ╢ℯ㱽ἳ天㯪⎴❳ℯ娵嫱⇞⹎炻侴㛒㚱㬋朊⚆ㅱ⤪ỽ㓡┬䈑 2

㕁⮎晃旣䅫堐䎦ˤ˭夳Ⓖ夳⇘烎 23

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ὢˤ 24

㛶⼳ṩ屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉ㆹ⑳䎮妋Ἀ▭嫃㱽悥Ὢᶨ嶗⯙㍸↢天㯪炻➭㊩Ὢ天㚱旣䅫▭䈑㕁炻␩Ἀ 25

␊⹎⯙娙㈧⺢⓮⎴ⶍ䦳栏⓷▭⚆ㅱ⣂㔠Ὢ普ᷕ ℯ㱽ἳ天㯪⎴ℯ娵嫱⇞⹎ˤ␩Ἀ▘昋 26

㗪▭デ奢㈧⺢⓮⎴❳ⶍ䦳栏⓷␩㧋⚆䫼Ἀ炻℞⮎Ὢ⑑◊シ⿅烎 27

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉⯙ὪἊ⑳Ⓖ偗㎃炻Ἂ⑳Ⓖ偗㎃▘┚- ⚈䁢⎗傥┚䘤㲉先炻Ἂ⑳屟℞Ṿ䈑㕁㚱℞ 28

Ṿ侫ㄖ⚈䳈ˤ 29

㛶⼳ṩ屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉Ἀ娵䁢ἊⒼ偗㎃炻⚈䁢屟℞Ṿ䈑㕁㚱℞Ṿ侫ㄖ⚈䳈炻ἈỘ⇘▭娵䁢㚨⣏ 30

▭⚈䳈Ὢ⑑◊␊烎 31

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉ㅱ娚悥Ὢ慹拊炻Ὢ┯ˤ 32

㛶⼳ṩ屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉䯉╖嫃┚⯙ὪἊ⑳. . 炷倥ᶵ㶭炸屜┚┯ˤ 3

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉屒⸛♱ˤ 34

㛶⼳ṩ屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉屒⸛ˤ 35

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ὢ炻Ⓖ 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十四天

64

本謄本由E piq 編製 㛶⼳ṩ屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉ⒼὪἊ⑳⍇㛔⟙₡▭㗪῁婿ỷ▭₡▭炻Ὢ⑒␩▭シ⿅␊烎 1 ⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉ℯ拗ˤ 2 㛶⼳ṩ屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉Ὢ◆炻␊ᾳ- 柕⃰ ㆹ⑳嫃䵲ᶨ嶗䘤䓇▭ḳ炻␊⹎47 㭝Ἀ⯙娙ˬ䫔Ḵả 3 䭉⥼㚫䔁シ⇘㈧⺢⓮㚦䴻╢ㇻ搧ⶍ䦳㛇攻⯙╢䘤㲉先㜧ᶲ朊≈姕庫⍂▭䘥刚ᷕ 䨢㜧 4 ἄ䁢䫔ḴⰌᾅ嬟䓐徼炻夳Ⓖ夳⇘⏨烎˭ 5 ⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉夳⇘ˤ 6 㛶⼳ṩ屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉椾⃰ ㆹ゛⎴Ἀ偗⭂ᶨᶳ炻␊┚䘥刚ᷕ 䨢㜧Ὢ⑒⯙Ὢ柕⃰ 嫃▘┚2.5m 7 ᷕ 䨢㜧␊烎 8 ⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉ⒼὪˤ 9 㛶⼳ṩ屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉㚱⑑◊↮⇍␊烎 10

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉⚈䁢䘥刚ᷕ 䨢㜧␊炻ᶨ⭂ⒼὪ2.5m 炻ᾳ⍂⹎ㅱ娚ㆹỘὪ崟䡤悥㚱5m ẍ 1

ᶲ炻⎴❳⤥䠔幓▭炻Ὢ◆炻␩⎴❳ㆹ⑳㚱䅺忶Ἂ䛇Ὢ旣䅫⿏檀⤥⣂ˤ 12

㛶⼳ṩ屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉␩␊⹎娙Ἀ䔁シ⇘Ἂ⑳䓐炻䔁シ⇘㈧⺢⓮䓐ˤ 13

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉⎴❳ⒼὪ. . 炷倥ᶵ㶭炸 14

㛶⼳ṩ屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉ˬ⯙╢9 㚰17 嘇▭㗪῁Ἀ⑳㚦䴻奨⮇▘栆䘥刚ᷕ 䨢㜧▭⮎䈑炻᷎ 忚埴 15

䯉╖䅫䅺㷔娎炻䘤䎦℞旣䅫⿏傥庫Ἓ炻䈑㕁Ṏ悥庫䁢➭⚢ˤ˭␊ᾳ旣䅫⿏傥㷔娎炻 16

㚱ᶨᾳ䯉╖▭旣䅫⿏傥㷔娎Ὢ怲ᾳ ׀烎 17

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉ㆹ⑳⥼⒉冒⶙ ▭ˤ 18

㛶⼳ṩ屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉Ἀ⑳冒⶙ ▭炻Ἀ⑳䘤䎦⇘▘┚⍂┚▭ˣ➭䠔┚▭先㜧炻Ἀ⑳⯙⍣娎ᶳ 19

Ἂ⑳▭旣䅫⿏烎 20

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ὢˤ 21

㛶⼳ṩ屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉␩␊⯙㚱䫔Ḵả䭉⥼㚫ㆸ⒉⯙▘䧖⍂┚ˣ➭䠔┚▭䘥刚先㜧▭䅫䅺㷔娎 2

␊炻⯙㉵㓅䚠䇯ˣ⼙䇯ẍἄ䲨抬⍲⍫侫▭ˤᶲ徘␊ᶨ䧖䘥刚▭ᷕ 䨢㜧晾䃞Ⓖ℟德⃱ 23

⿏炻Ữ冯⯭㮹㚦䴻⺢嬘䓐ἄ⮩䨿▭2.5 炻. . 炷倥ᶵ㶭炸唬┚▘䧖┯炻唬┚▘䧖䘥 24

刚▘┚ᷕ 䨢㜧㚱㇨Ⓖ⎴炻䴻Ἀ⑳▭㷔娎炻␊晣⍂┚␊晣Ṏ悥旣䅫⿏傥庫Ἓˤ➢㕤䔞 25

㗪⮵⮩䨿䈑㕁旣䅫⿏傥▭斄㲐␊炻䫔Ḵả䭉⥼㚫Ὢ㛒㚱㍉䓐唬┚▘䧖ἄ䁢⮩䨿䈑 26

㕁炻侴Ὢ⺢嬘㈧⺢⓮㓡䓐⍂┚▘䧖⍣ẋ㚧䘤㲉先㜧▭ˤ79 㭝␊⹎嫃炻ˬ㈧⺢⓮堐䣢 27

▘䧖- ▘┚▘䧖暋ẍ㕤䎦⟜㊱⮎晃暨天ा塩军⎰怑⯢⮠炻᷎ ᶵ怑䓐㕤╖ỵ▭⮩䨿䓐 28

徼炻⚈㬌Ⓖ⎴シ㍉䲵㚱斄⺢嬘ˤ˭ ╢␊⹎炻Ṳ㛅㜄⣏⼳ⷓ炻⌛Ὢ⥼⒉㚫▭㜄⣏⼳ 29

ⷓ悥⎴Ἀ嫃忶炻℞⮎␊ᾳ嫃㱽⯙ℯ⚆ㅱ⇘␊ᾳ旣䅫冯Ⓖ旣䅫␊ᶨᾳ柴䚖▭炻␩ỮὪ 30

␊ᾳ⯙㈧⺢⓮䓨Ἀ▭䎮䓙炻䃉婾ᾳ䎮䓙- ␊ᾳ㚱ℯ⚆ㅱ␊ᾳ旣䅫▭姜㯪炻Ἀ䔞㗪▭ 31

䎮妋炻㈧⺢⓮䯉╖┚嫃炻Ἂ堐忼▭シ⿅Ὢ⑑◊␊烎 32

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉堐忼シ⿅⯙Ⓖ偗廱♱ˤ 3

㛶⼳ṩ屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉Ἀ䚠ᾉἊⒼ偗廱▭⍇⚈Ὢ⑑◊␊烎 34

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉悥Ὢ拊▭⓷柴♱ˤ 35

㛶⼳ṩ屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉ˬ㈧⺢⓮᷎ ㊯␊炻Ἂ⑳㚫⽒䑘ἧ䓐ᶨ┚䘥刚ᷕ 䨢㜧炻⌛㕤㭷Ⰼㇻ搧ᷳ ⼴ 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十四天

65

本謄本由E piq 編製 ⯙㚫㏔军ᶳᶨ㦻Ⰼἧ䓐炻䃞⼴≈姕╢䘤㲉先㜧ᶲ炻侴Ⓖἄ䁢⚢⭂⮩䨿䈑㕁ˤ˭Ṳ㛅 1 㜄⣏⼳ⷓ悥㚱⎹Ἀ⓷忶▭炻℞⮎␊ᶨ䧖㇨媪▭慵墯ἧ䓐炻≈╢ᶲ朊炻℞⮎Ὢ⚆Ⓖ⚆ 2 ㅱ⇘␊ᾳ旣䅫▭姜㯪▭␊烎 3 ⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉⚆ㅱⒼ⇘ˤ 4 㛶⼳ṩ屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉⤥◆炻␩╢␩▭ね㱩ᷳ ᶳ炻ㆹ⑳ℵ䛯句⍣⏨炻䫔7 㭝炻㛒傥婒㚵⬷㤕 5 ㍉䓐ᶲ徘⍂┚▘晣ᷕ 䨢㜧炻␩Ἀ⯙廱䁢- ょ㚱廱䦣㍊妶庫℟旣䅫⿏傥▭䘤㲉先㜧炻 6 ⯙╢2024 ⸜9 㚰炻Ἀ╢⬷㤕⬷⺢敋ᾳ彎℔⭌⯙⎴⬷㤕▭ỽ⺢㤕⃰ 䓇炻Gordon ⌛ 7 Ὢỽ⃰ 䓇⯙朊婯炻䔞㗪Ἀ⎹Ἂ⯽䣢YouTube 塷朊⯙㏝⇘㚱┚庫檀旣䅫⿏▭䘤㲉先 8 㜧▭⼙䇯炻᷎ ⓷⎗Ⓖ⎗ẍ⮯⮩䨿▭䈑㕁㚜㎃䁢娚䫱旣䅫▭䘤㲉先炻夳Ⓖ夳⇘Ἀ␊⹎ 9 ␩⮓烎 10

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ὢˤ 1

㛶⼳ṩ屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉ㆹ⑳䞍忻⇘㚨⼴╢- ㆹ⑳䚠ᾉㅱ娚⎗傥ὪGordon Ho ㇳᶲ㓆⇘▭屯㕁 12

⹎夳⇘炻Ἀ䘬䡢Ὢ㚱䘤忶ᶨ┚You T ube 夳⇘▭⼙䇯䓨Ἂ▭ˤ 13

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ⓖ炻Ⓖˤ 14

㛶⼳ṩ屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉▘┚Ὢ10 㚰▭ḳねˤ 15

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ⓖˤ 16

㛶⼳ṩ屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉Ἀ姀Ⓖ姀⼿Ἀ10 㚰▭㗪῁䘤䓨Ἂ▘┚YouTube ⼙䇯㚫Ⓖ㚫⯙Ὢ9 㚰 17

▭㗪῁䓨Ἂ䛯忶▘┚⎾炻⭂㈹ㆾὪ栆⎴⎾烎⭂㈹ㆾὪⒼ⎴▭⼙䇯⏨烎 18

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉栆⎴♱悥Ὢˤ 19

㛶⼳ṩ屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉ˬỽ⃰ 䓇䔞㗪堐䣢⯙⤪㝄⎗ẍ妪岤⇘庫旣䅫䘤㲉先㜧炻㕘ᶨ㈡▭䈑㕁⎒ 20

㚫怑䓐㕤䫔ᶱ⎴䫔⚃㛇㏕㢂ⶍἄ▭⹏㔠炻军㕤䫔ᶨ㢂炷㛇烎炸㏕㢂ⶍ䦳㚱斄▭䘤㲉 21

先㜧⶚䴻枸⃰ 枸妪炻侴ᶼ⮩䨿ⶍ䦳Ṏ悥⶚䴻⯽攳炻⤪暨天㚜㎃⶚⬱墅▭䈑㕁炻⮯㚫 2

㴱⍲柵⢾▭Ṣ≃⎴ㆸ㛔炻Ṏ㚫⼙枧ⶍ䦳▭忚⹎ˤ˭␩⯙╢ᶲ徘▭側㘗炻ㆹ⑳⯙♇⇘ 23

␊ᾳ℞⮎倥嫱㚫ᶨ攳⥳╢嫱䚋㚫ẋ堐⣏⼳ⷓἄ⥳⇅昛娆▭㗪῁Ὢ㍸⇘▭ᶨ㭝Ἀ⎴ỽ 24 ⃰ 䓇ᷳ 攻▭WhatsAp ┯ˤ 25

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ⓖˤ 26

㛶⼳ṩ屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉␩␊嫃⯙℞⼴⯙╢10 㚰2 嘇炻⯙Ὢ柕⃰ 㚱斄▭WhatsAp ˤㆾ侭ㆹⷞ 27

Ἀ⍣䛯ᶨ䛯▘ᾳWhatsAp 炻㔯ẞ⣦A2/part 2/ 䫔1 9 䇰炻椾⃰ 炻⼸⃰ 䓇ㆹ㍸ 28

ᶨ㍸Ἀ炻␊ᾳ倥嫱㚫⥳⇅▭㗪῁炻ẋ堐⥼⒉㚫⣏⼳ⷓἄ⥳⇅昛娆▭㗪῁炻Ἂ⎹⣏⭞ 29

⯽䣢␊┚WhatsAp ▭⮵娙炻Ἂ䔞㗪ㆹ⑳⤪㝄ℯ姀拗ㅱ娚㚱ℑᾳ䇰㛔炻ᶨᾳ⯙ㆹ侴 30

⭞夳⇘␊ᶨᾳ炻⶚䴻ㇻ␿↢♇▭䇰㛔炻Ἂ⎴㗪㚱ᶨᾳὪ䛯ỷᾳ暣娙炻䚜ね╢ᾳ暣娙 31

▘⹎夳⇘▘┚㚱斄⮵娙▭䇰㛔炻Ἀ㚱ℯ␩▭⌘尉烎 32

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉ㆹ- Ὢˤ 3

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉㱽⭀敋ᶳ炻䔞㗪㛒㚱▘ᾳ嫱㒂▭℞⮎ˤ 34

㛶⼳ṩ屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉⥳⇅▭㗪῁Ἀ㛒㚱烎 35

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉ὪExcel ♇▭ˤ 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十四天

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本謄本由E piq 編製 㛶⼳ṩ屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉ⒼὪ- 㛒㚱炻⌛Ὢ㶐ὪExcel ♇׀烎Okay ˤⒼ䵲天炻㚱夳忶׀炻Ὢ⑒ 1 ⏨烎 2 㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉ㆹ夳⇘暣娙▘ᾳ䇰㛔炻℞⮎ὪἈᶲᾳ䥖㊄⃰ 䓨ㆹ⑳ˤ 3 ⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉ⒼὪ┶ˤ 4 㛶⼳ṩ屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉Ⓖ䵲天炻⼸⃰ 䓇炻℞⮎ㆹⒼὪ㕇惴㚱⸦⣂ᾳ䇰㛔▭ˤ 5 ⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ὢ炻Ὢ炻Ὢˤ 6 㛶⼳ṩ屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉Ⓖ䵲天炻ㆹ⑳䞍忻ㇻ⼿↢♇⯙⌛Ὢ偗⭂㚱ᶨᾳ⍇㛔▭䇰㛔׀┯炻Ὢ⑒烎 7 ⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ὢ炻Ὢ炻Ὢˤ 8 㛶⼳ṩ屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉⤥炻ㆹ゛⎴Ἀ偗⭂ᶨᶳ▭┓炻ㆹ⑳⤥⾓␩㛃ᶨ㛃句⍣炻╢␊ᶨᾳExcel 9 ▭䇰㛔炻ᶳ朊Ὢㅱ娚夳⇘㚱ᶱ溆▭炻Ⱦ. . ȿˤ 10

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ⓖ▗ˤ 1

㛶⼳ṩ屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉ℵ句⮹⮹⏨炻夳Ⓖ夳⇘▘⹎㚱ᶱ溆⏨烎Ⱦ. . ȿ 12

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ὢ炻⒎炻Ὢˤ 13

㛶⼳ṩ屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉Okay 炻Ἀ㚫⎴シ▘ᾳȾ. . ȿ℞⮎Ὢ⌛Ὢㇻ␊ᾳ䇰㛔▭Ṣ㑖天␿▘⹎㚱 14

┚℞Ṿ▭⮵娙▭炻Ὢ⑒烎 15

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ὢˤ 16

㛶⼳ṩ屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉ㆹ椾⃰ 㼬㶭炻ㆹ⑳悥゛娙䓨⥼⒉㚫䞍炻ㆹ⑳Ⓖ奢⼿▘ᾳ㑖天㚱⓷柴׀炻 17

ㆹ⑳ⒼὪ娙▘ᾳ㑖天Ὢ⇒㷃␿┚⑑◊炻ㆹ⎒Ὢ゛㊯↢ㆹ⑳夳⇘▭␊ᾳ䇰㛔⯙Ὢ␩炻 18

␩ㆹṎ悥゛␊ᾳ⥼⒉㚫⤪㝄㚱暨天゛╢␊ᶨᾳ⮵娙ℍ朊䛯嵛㛔␊炻␩⥼⒉㚫䞍忻㚱 19

⎎⢾ᶨᾳ嵛㛔炻ㆹ⑳䃉シ娙▘ᾳ嵛㛔⎴␊ᾳ㑖天䇰Ὢᷕ 攻䓊䓇⓷柴▭炻␊ᾳⒼὪㆹ 20

⑳゛嫃▭ˤ⤥⏨炻⼸䓇炻ㆹ⑳彼䔒⍣␊ᶨ䇰▭枪悐炻ㆹ⑳䛯ᶨ䛯崟⇅ˤ㚱斄▭⮵娙 21

╢␊ᶨ⹎␩⯙ㇻ␿↢♇炻⯙⶚䴻Ὢ䓙⮵娙▭崟ㇳ⯙嫃炻ㆹ⎗ẍ娙䓨Ἀ䞍炻䔞䃞⎴㇨ 2

㚱WhatsAp ⮵娙ᶨ㧋炻ㆹ㑖天ᷳ ⇵㚱┚℞Ṿ- 嫃℞Ṿ⓷柴▭⮵娙炻␩ㆹ⯙娙䓨 23

Ἀ䞍╢␊ᶨᾳㇳ㨇- ⒼὪㇳㇻ↢♇炻㨇ㇻ↢♇▭䇰㛔⯙ℯ␿▘┚⮵娙▭炻⚈䁢⎴␊ 24

ᶨ㭝⮵娙▭ℏ⭡⯙ℯ䚜㍍▭斄Ὢ▭炻␊ᶨ㭝⮵娙⯙Ὢ䓙2024 ⸜10 㚰2 㖍攳⥳炻 25

夳Ⓖ夳⇘烎 26

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ⓖˤ 27

㛶⼳ṩ屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉Ἀ柕⃰ 悥- ㆹ⑳夳⇘Ἀ╢Ἀ▭嫱Ṣ昛徘㚠⹎℞⮎悥⶚䴻嫃忶ᶨ┚側㘗炻 28

姀Ⓖ姀⼿烎 29

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ὢˤ 30

㛶⼳ṩ屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉ㆹ⑳䛯䛯炻╢▘ᾳ側㘗▭⇵柴ᶳ炻♇⇘␊⹎⏨炻ỽ⺢㤕炻⌛ὪGordon 31

Ho⃰ 䓇⯙╢⋩Ḵ溆⋲▭㗪῁␩⮓炻Ἂ娙ˬㆹ゛⓷㶭㤂炻㖊䃞⯭㮹奢⼿炷English 32

Spoken 炸␩⣏シ夳炻䫔Ḵˣ䫔ᶱ㛇㚫⏎㚜㓡2.5m ⍂▭ᷕ 䨢㜧烎˭夳Ⓖ夳⏨烎 3

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉夳⇘ˤ 34

㛶⼳ṩ屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉ỽ⺢㤕⃰ 䓇䔞㗪㍸↢䓐2.5m ⍂▭ᷕ 䨢㜧炻℞⮎Ἂ␊ᾳ㍸嬘⎗ẍ⚆ㅱ 35

⇘⑑◊姜㯪␊烎 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十四天

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本謄本由E piq 編製 ⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉⎒Ὢ德⃱▘ᾳ姜㯪␳ˤ 1 㛶⼳ṩ屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉ỮὪ䔞㗪Ἀ⎴ỽ⺢㤕⃰ 䓇嫃䵲▭ᷣ 天姜㯪ὪḄ◊␊烎 2 ⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉旣䅫♱ˤ 3 㛶⼳ṩ屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉␩Ἀ奢⼿ỽ⺢㤕⃰ 䓇␩㧋㍸嬘Ἀ▭⍵ㅱὪḄ◊␊烎 4 ⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉⚆ㅱⒼ⇘ㆹᾳ姜㯪⏨ˤ 5 㛶⼳ṩ屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉ㆹ⑳夳⇘Ἀ⯙␩㧋⮓炻Ἀ嶇ỷ⯙⮓ˬ ⎗⏎㏝⇘悥Ὢ炷English 6 Spoken 炸炻ỮὪℯ␩㖻䅫˭炻夳Ⓖ夳⏨烎 7 ⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉夳⇘ˤ 8 㛶⼳ṩ屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉ㆹ⑳䞍忻╢␊ᶨᾳỵ炻℞⮎Ὢ㚦䴻婿忶Ⓖ䓐炷English Spoken 炸炻 9 䓐▘┚⍂┚▭䘥刚ᷕ 䨢㜧׀炻Ὢ⑒⏨烎˭ 10

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ὢˤ 1

㛶⼳ṩ屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉溆妋Ἀℯ╢␊ᶨ⹎娙ˬㆹ⎗Ⓖ⎗ẍ彼䔒⍣⎴Ἀ嫃䔒ㆹᷳ ⇵㍸嬘忶▭⍂┚ 12

▭䘥刚ᷕ 䨢㜧˭烎 13

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉⚈䁢Ἂᶨ㖑⯙⶚䴻Ὢ⏎㰢␿ㆹ⑳␊ᾳ㰢⭂⎾◃ˤ 14

㛶⼳ṩ屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉⤥ˤ␩Ἀ⯙⮓␿ˬ⎗⏎㏝⇘悥Ὢ炷English Spoken 炸炻ỮὪℯ␩㖻 15

䅫˭炻䃞⼴ỽ⺢㤕⃰ 䓇⯙␩㧋ℵ⚆央▭ˬㆹℵ⓷ᶳ⺈炻Ữ⌛ἧἊ娙㚱炻ㆹ悥Ⓖ㔊㑼 16

ᾅᶨ⭂㚱旣䅫˭ˤἈ夳⇘Ἂ␊ᾳ嫃㱽▭㗪῁炻Ἀ㚱⑑◊⍵ㅱ烎 17

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉⤥Ụ㚱┚㍐㏒ㆹ⑳炻悥ὪⒼὪ⤥゛㏝␩ˤ 18

㛶⼳ṩ屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉Okay 炻溆㧋㍐㏒Ἀ烎 19

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉⑒⯙ὪἊ奢⼿ˬ┪炻Ὢ⑒㚱׀烎˭䷥ᷳ Ἂ⑳奢⼿␊ᾳ炷English Spoken 炸 20

㛒⽭㚱炻㇨ẍㆹ⑳⑒天ℵ䇕⍾ˤ 21

㛶⼳ṩ屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉Ἂᷳ ⇵- Ἀ㍸↢㚱␊┚␩㧋▭◊▭㗪῁炻Ἂ⑳▭嫃㱽娙炻Ἀ娙旣䅫▭ 2

炷English Spoken 炸炻Ἂ⑳▭嫃㱽Ὢ⑑◊烎Ἂ⑳▭⚆ㅱ烎╢ℵᷳ ⇵▭㗪῁炻䔞 23

Ἀ⑳㍸↢娙天㏝旣䅫▭炷English Spoken 炸▭㗪῁炻Ἂ⑳▭⚆ㅱὪḄ◊烎 24

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ἂ⑳⯙Ὢ娙㟡㛔悥ℯ㱽ἳ天㯪炻ℯᶨᾳ夷⭂天▘ᾳ旣䅫䦳⹎ˤ 25

㛶⼳ṩ屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉⌛Ὢㆹ⑳夳⇘Ἀ⮓忶炻ℯ␊ᾳ▭嫱㚠⇞⹎▭炻Ὢ⑒␩▭シ⿅烎 26

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉ℯ拗ˤ 27

㛶⼳ṩ屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉␩Ἀ夳⇘ỽ⺢㤕⃰ 䓇␩㧋⓷Ἀ炻Ἀ⯙娙␊ᾳ- Ἀ▭⚆ㅱ⯙娙ˬ⼙㭝䇯炻 28

䅺⬴㚫冒⶙䄬⯙⎗ẍ炻ᶵ䓐cert ˭炻夳Ⓖ夳烎 29

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉ℯ拗ˤ 30

㛶⼳ṩ屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉Ἀ▭シ⿅ὪḄ◊烎 31

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉シ⿅⯙⤥Ụ柕⃰ ␩嫃炻⌛ὪⒼ⤥ℵ䇕㉿Ἂ⑳ᷳ ⇵Ὢ␩㧋㍐⠀ㆹ⑳▭啱⎋⯙娙炻 32

⚈䁢ℯ␊ᾳ⌛Ὢ夷旸炻㇨ẍ⯙ℯcert 炻㇨ẍㆹ⑳⯙娙ˬἈℯcert Ἀ悥䄏⼙ᶨ┚ 3

Ὢ㭼庫旣䅫▭䘤㲉先㜧˭ˤ 34

㛶⼳ṩ屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉␩ㆹ夳⇘ỽ⺢㤕⃰ 䓇⯙娙ˬ⤥˭炻䃞⼴Ἀ⯙䘤㭝⼙䇯䓨Ἂ▭炻夳Ⓖ夳⇘ 35

␊⹎㚱㭝⼙䇯烎 36

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本謄本由E piq 編製 ⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ὢˤ 1 㛶⼳ṩ屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉␩▘⹎⯙㚱ᾳYouTube ▭炻␩柕⃰ ㆹ⑳䛯忶׀◆炻ㆹ娙䓨Ἀ䞍␊ᶨ㭝 2 ⼙䇯炻℞⮎ㆹ⑳柕⃰ 䛯忶炻ᶨỵỤ᷶ Ὢℏ⛘▭⤛⢓䓐劙㔯 炻㚱⮹⮹⺋⏲ㆸ↮▭⼙ 3 䇯炻⯙娙⤪㝄ἈὪ゛屟ㆹ␊ᶨ䧖䘤㲉先㜧炻⯙ㆹ姀⼿⤥Ụ- ˬⒼ姀⼿␿ᶲ⽖ᾉ⭂ᶲ 4 Ali pay ㏝ㆹ炻ㆹ㚫⸓Ἀ˭␩㧋ˤἈ姀Ⓖ姀⼿▘㭝⼙䇯烎 5 ⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉姀⼿ˤ 6 㛶⼳ṩ屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉␩Ἀ䘤␿▘㭝⼙䇯炻Ἀ⯙娙ˬ栆Ụ␩˭炻⑑◊シ⿅烎ᾳˬ栆Ụ␩˭烎 7 ⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉⌛Ὢシ⿅娙䓨ᾳ⍫侫Ἂ炻⯙娙Ἀ⍇Ἦ㚱┚䘤㲉先⯙Ὢ䛇Ὢ⎗ẍ䅺- ⌛Ὢ䅺忶ℯ 8 ␩⭡㖻叿♱ˤ 9 㛶⼳ṩ屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉嶇ỷἈℵ嫃ˬ䔞䃞炻⼙▭㗪῁Ⓖ⤥␩㳩炻䛇Ὢ䅺侸┚炻夳ỷἊ叿䀓炻Ⓖ 10

两临䓐㖶䀓䅺炻㚫Ⓖ㚫冒⶙䄬˭炻夳Ⓖ夳⇘␩⮓烎 1

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉夳⇘ˤ 12

㛶⼳ṩ屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉Ἀ␊⹎嫃䵲▭ˬⒼ⤥␩㳩˭炻Ἀ嫃䵲Ὢ⑑◊Ὢ㳩烎 13

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉⑒⯙Ὢ娙炻⚈䁢ㆹ⑳- ⚈䁢Ἂℯcert ⎾◃炻天Ἂ⼙䔒㭝䇯Ὢ⑒- ␩䃞⼴天㉵ 14

䔒䓨ㆹ⑳䛯⎾◃炻␩Ⓖ⤥⤥Ụ▘㭝䇯炻柕⃰ ㆹ⑳悥妋慳忶炻␩▘㭝䇯⯙Ὢᶨㇻ䀓㨇 15

䅺ᶨ昋炻⸦䥺␩⯙ℯℵ两临䅺句⍣炻␩ㆹ⑳䔞℞㗪奢⼿⤥㳩♱炻㇨ẍ⎓Ἂ㉵⼿Ⓖ⤥ 16

␩ˤ 17

㛶⼳ṩ屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉⌛ὪἈ嫃䵲ᶲ朊炻ㆹ⑳侴⭞夳⇘ᶲ朊▘㭝You T ube ▘㭝烎 18

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ⓖ炻Ⓖˤ 19

㛶⼳ṩ屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉⌛Ὢㆹ⑳柕⃰ 䛯忶炻ᶨᾳ劙㔯㚱⮹⮹⺋⏲ㆸ↮▘㭝烎 20

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ὢ炻ℯ拗ˤ 21

㛶⼳ṩ屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉⯙㚱ㇻ䀓㨇ㇻ炻ỮὪ⤥⾓炻⸦䥺␩⯙Ⓖℵ䅺烎 2

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ὢ炻ℯ拗ˤ 23

㛶⼳ṩ屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉␩Ἀ⯙娙▘ᾳ⯙- ⌛Ὢ▘㭝䇯⼙⼿㭼庫㳩烎 24

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ὢˤ 25

㛶⼳ṩ屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉␩ㆹ⑳夳⇘␊ᾳ⇒㷃␿▭ᶨ┚⛘㕡炻℞⮎ㆹ⎗ẍ娙䓨Ἀ炻⎒ᶵ忶Ὢ㚱⎎ 26

⢾ᶨ㭝䇯▭炻ㆾ侭Ⓖ䵲天炻⚈䁢昌␿䫔Ḵ㭝䇯炻ㆹ⑳ᶨ昋攻㚫夳⇘㚱䫔ᶱ㭝䇯▭炻 27

␩ỽ⺢㤕⯙娙ˬ㓞⇘炻⤪㝄ㆹ妪⇘炻⎗㕤䫔Ḵˣᶱ㛇廱䓐炻Ữ㲐シ炻䫔ᶨ㛇䃉㱽㚜 28

㎃˭炻℞⮎╢⎴ᶨᾳ㗪῁炻ㆹ⑳夳⇘ỽ⺢㤕⃰ 䓇▘ᾳ䞕妲Ὢ12 溆41 ↮▭炻夳Ⓖ 29

夳烎夳Ⓖ夳烎㚨枪ˤ 30

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ⓖˤ 31

㛶⼳ṩ屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉℞⮎╢⎴ᶨᾳ㗪῁炻Ἀ℞⮎Ὢ䘤䵲䫔ᶱ㡅⼙䇯䓨Ἂ▭炻␩⼸㺧㝹Ἀ⯙䘤 32

䫔ᶱ㡅⼙䇯炻䘤YouTube 忋䳸炻␩⯙炷English Spoken 炸炻嶇ỷ㚱ᶨᾳ␊ᾳ 3

You T ube ▭忋䳸炻夳Ⓖ夳烎 34

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉夳⇘ˤ 35

㛶⼳ṩ屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉␊ᶨ㭝忋䳸炻␊ᶨ㭝⼙䇯炻ㆹ⑳柕⃰ 悥㚱㨇㚫䛯忶炻姀Ⓖ姀⼿烎 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十四天

69

本謄本由E piq 編製 ⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉姀⼿ˤ 1 㛶⼳ṩ屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉␊ᶨ㭝⼙䇯Ἀ奢⼿- Ἀ溆妋゛䘤䓨␊ᾳỽ⺢㤕⃰ 䓇烎 2 ⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉䓨Ἂ⍫侫䔒℞⮎ㆹ⑳゛天▘┚䘤㲉先ὪἈ䅫溆- 崟䡤Ἀ㉵↢♇炻Ἀ天䅫溆␿ᶨ 3 㭝㗪攻炻Ἂ叿␿炻䃞⼴Ἂ冒⶙嬀⼿䄬炻ℯℵ㒜㔋句⍣␩♱ˤ 4 㛶⼳ṩ屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉⌛ὪἈ▭シ⿅Ὢ炻␊ᶨ㭝⼙䇯℞⮎⯙⼙⇘㚱ᾳṢ⯙Ὢ䅺䵲▘ᾳ䘤㲉先炻 5 䅺⇘䘤㲉先⶚䴻叿␿炻ỮὪ嶇ỷ⯙䄬␿ᾳㇻ䀓㨇炻␩ㆹ⑳柕⃰ 悥夳⇘▘㭝⼙䇯炻␩ 6 ▘ᾳ䘤㲉先⯙㚫冒⶙䄬▭烎 7 ⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ὢ炻ℯ拗ˤ 8 㛶⼳ṩ屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉␩ㆹ⑳䞍忻炻␊⹎ỽ⺢㤕⃰ 䓇⯙娙ˬ⤥䘬炻Ⓖ娚ᷣ ⷕ˭炻夳Ⓖ夳烎 9 ⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ὢˤ 10

㛶⼳ṩ屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉Ἀ▭䎮妋炻㈧⺢⓮䳸㝄Ὢ㚱ℯ⍣㏝⇘␊┚旣䅫⿏庫⻟▭䘤㲉先㜧烎 1

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉㚱ˤ 12

㛶⼳ṩ屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉␩⯙╢䫔Ḵ⎴䫔ᶱ㛇▘⹎忳䓐▭炻Ὢ⑒烎 13

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉ℯ拗ˤ 14

㛶⼳ṩ屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉ㆹ⑳彼䔒⍣Ἀ▭嫱Ṣ昛徘㚠WS12/209 0 枩- ㆹ婿⎗傥⶚䴻Ὢ⍣⇘ 15

2092 ˣ93 ╍▭枩㔠炻Ὢ炻ㆹ⑳句┚炻ㆹ⑳ㅱ娚忶␿79 㭝炻䫔80 㭝⯙娙ˬ㛇⼴ 16

㈧⺢⓮⯙䧙㈦⇘ᶨ㈡旣䅫⿏庫Ἓ▭䘤㲉先㜧炻㕤㗗⯙╢䫔Ḵả䭉⥼㚫炻㚦㕤ⶍ䦳ἳ 17

㚫ᷕ ⯙㕘ᶨ㈡䘤㲉先㜧忚埴䎦⟜㷔娎炻㟡㒂2024 ⸜10 㚰26 㖍▭ⶍ䦳㚫嬘䲨 18

抬炻㕘ᶨ㈡▭⮩䨿䈑㕁䘤㲉先㜧⶚⇘炻⬷㤕Ṏ⌛⟜䓐䀓㨇忚埴䅫䅺㷔娎炻℞䳸㝄栗 19

䣢㚱斄䈑㕁㗗ᶵ傥溆䅫䘬˭炻夳Ⓖ夳烎 20

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉ℯ拗ˤ 21

㛶⼳ṩ屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉␩Ἀ⯙䓨␿ᾳ炷English Spoken 炸炻Ὢᶨᾳ⍫侫枩䡤炻⯙ㆹ⎗ẍ娙 2

䓨Ἀ䞍▘ᾳὪⶍ䦳㚫嬘䲨抬▭䲨抬♇▭炻⯙ⒼὪ䔞㗪㉵␿▭ᶨ㭝䇯♇▭ˤ䏜㖍㚱ᶨ 23

ỵ㛶⃰ 䓇ἄὃ炻Ἀ䏜㖍╢Ⓖ╢⹎烎 24

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉╢⹎ˤ 25

㛶⼳ṩ屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉㚱ỵ㛶⃰ 䓇ἄὃ炻娙Ἂ悥㚱䛯忶␩㧋▭ᶨ㫉䅫䅺㷔娎炻Ἀ姀Ⓖ姀⼿Ἂ␩ 26

嫃烎 27

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ⓖˤ 28

㛶⼳ṩ屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉㛶⚳泣⃰ 䓇炻䫔ᶨ炻ㆹ゛⓷㛶⚳泣⃰ 䓇Ὢ⑒⥼⒉♇׀烎 29

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉ⒼὪˤ 30

㛶⼳ṩ屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉溆妋㛶⚳泣⃰ 䓇⎗ẍ夳⇘▘㫉㷔娎▭烎 31

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉⚈䁢ㆹ悥嫃忶炻ㆹ⑳▘ᾳⶍ䦳- ㆹ⑳ⶍ䦳ἳ㚫炻℞⮎㭷ᾳ䥖㊄ℕ悥㚫攳▭炻␩ 32

ㆹ⑳悥㬉彶㇨㚱⯭㮹忶♇⍫冯▭炻Ὢ炻㇨ẍ㛶⚳泣⃰ 䓇悥Ὢ⤥㓗㊩⍣⍫≈⤥⣂㫉▭ 3

ⶍ䦳ἳ㚫▭ˤ 34

㛶⼳ṩ屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉␩ㆹ⑳䞍忻␊┚䘤㲉先㜧⯙䓐╢䫔Ḵ㛇⎴䫔ᶱ㛇▘⹎炻␩䫔ᶨ㛇Ἀ␊⹎ 35

㚱嫃炻䫔81 㭝炻䓙㕤䔞㗪⬷㤕㉺䳽㚜㎃䫔ᶨ㛇▭䘤㲉先㜧炻䫔Ḵả䭉⥼㚫忪㕤 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十四天

70

本謄本由E piq 編製 2024 ⸜10 㚰4 㖍⎹㴰旚嗽䘤↢暣悝炻⯙㚱斄䈑㕁▭㴰旚⬱ℐ㍸↢斄㲐炻夳Ⓖ夳 1 ⇘烎 2 ⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉夳⇘ˤ 3 㛶⼳ṩ屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉⤥ˤ␊ᾳ10 㚰4 嘇⎹㴰旚嗽䘤↢▭暣悝炻⯙Ὢㆹ⑳柕⃰ 䛯忶劙㔯▘ᾳ 4 暣悝炻┙Ⓖ┙烎 5 ⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ὢˤ 6 㛶⼳ṩ屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉⤥ˤἈ␊⹎␩嫃▭炻ἈὪ娙⚈䁢⬷㤕⯙㉺䳽㚜㎃䫔ᶨ㛇炻㕤㗗忪㕤䫔Ḵ 7 ả䭉⥼㚫⯙⎹㴰旚嗽䘤暣悝炻Ἀ⎗Ⓖ⎗ẍ妋ᶨ妋䓨ㆹ⑳䞍炻溆妋㚱␊ᾳ⚈㝄斄Ὢ烎 8 Ἀ℞⮎Ὢ゛娙䓨ㆹ⑳䞍┚⑑◊烎 9 ⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉℞⮎↢␊ᾳ暣悝▭䚖䘬⯙㗗゛娙炻ㆹ⑳㚱ℯ彎㱽⎗ẍ䓙㓧⹄▭悐攨炻⎗傥㴰旚 10 ᷳ 栆炻␩䓙Ἂ⑳⍣嫱㖶␿㟡㛔䘤㲉先ὪⒼ怑⎰䓐╢␊ᾳ⣏䵕ᾖᶲ朊 ⮩䨿䈑㕁▭ 1

娙炻␩ㆹ⑳⯙㚱ᶨᾳ䎮㒂⍣天㯪䔒ㆹ⑳▭⬷㤕⍣ 䔒㚜㎃❳䫔ᶨ㛇䓨ㆹ⑳炻␩ㆹ⑳ 12

⯙Ⓖ暨天╢␊ᾳᶱ€ᶱ塷朊ẚ天⣏⭞⍣㓆ᶨ┚拊↢♇⍣ ␊ᾳ㚜㎃䫔ᶨ㛇␊ᾳ≽ 13

ἄ炻⯙Ὢㆹ⑳ⶴ㛃Ἂ⎗ẍ ⇘䫔ᶨ㛇悥㎃❳ˤ 14

㛶⼳ṩ屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉Okay ˤㆹ⑳䞍忻␊ᾳ䘤䓨㴰旚嗽▭暣悝Ὢℯ暣悝▭⚆央▭炻⯙Ἀ㇨䞍炻 15

⽆Ἦ㚱ℯ倥忶㴰旚嗽㚱⚆央烎 16

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉ℯˤ 17

㛶⼳ṩ屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉ᷣ ⷕˣℑỵ⥼⒉炻ㆹ▭⓷柴Ὢ␩⣂ˤ 18

昛‍㲊嬘⒉烉⼸⃰ 䓇炻ㆹ㛔Ṣ⯙╢冒⶙⯳剹⯙悥Ὢ⍫冯䭉䎮ⶍἄ▭炻␩ㆹ ␿⋩⸦⸜炻ㆹ  19

忶ḅ⸜ᷣ ⷕ炻ㆹ侴⭞悥Ὢ⥼⒉炻ỮὪㆹ⑳䓐ᶨᾳ㤕ᷣ ⥼⒉㚫▭㕡⺷炻␩溆妋天⓷ 20

Ἀ炻⚈䁢Ἀ䞍忻㤕ᷣ ⥼⒉㚫⎴❳㤕ᷣ 䩳㟰㱽⛀悥Ὢ⋼≑㤕ᷣ 䭉䎮⯳剹▭炻␩㤕ᷣ ⥼ 21

⒉㚫Ὢ⯭㮹ẋ堐⎴❳䭉䎮℔⎠㹅忂▭奺刚▭┓ˤ 2

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ⓖˤ 23

昛‍㲊嬘⒉烉㇨ẍㆹ⑳Ὢℯᶨᾳ㱽⭂㪲≃炻Ṏ悥ℯ屔ả▭炻㇨ẍ⎒Ὢᶨᾳ媖娊奺刚炻ỮὪ⤪ 24

㝄䭉䎮℔⎠ἊⒼ⎰ἄ炻℞⮎Ἀ⯙⎗傥天䀺Ἂ炻ỮὪ䀺Ṣ⍰ⒼὪ娙␩⭡㖻ˤ⎎ᶨ㕡 25

朊炻Ἀ侴⭞ 䵲ᾳ㤕ᷣ 䩳㟰㱽⛀炻㚱㱽⭂▭㪲≃⍣䭉䎮⯳剹炻ỮὪṎ悥㚱⤥⣏▭屔 26

ả▭ˤἳ⤪╢⣏䵕ᾖ▭ね㱩ᷳ ᶳ炻⌛ἧἈ㏝␿⎰屯㟤▭㈧⺢⓮炻℞⮎Ἀ▘ᾳ㤕ᷣ 䩳 27

㟰㱽⛀▘ᾳὅ䃞Ὢ㈧㑼㚨䳪▭䭉䎮屔ả炻⌛ὪἈⒼ⎗ẍℵ⮯Ἂ炷English 28

Spoken 炸↢⍣炻㇨媪ˤ 29

㇨ẍỮὪᾳ⓷柴⯙Ὢ炻侴⭞楁㷗⶚䴻ㆸ䩳␿␩⣂㤕ᷣ 䩳㟰㱽⛀炻␩╢␊ẞ- 䔞 30

䃞炻ㆹ悥天- ᶨ⭂天- ⣏⭞悥⤥㖶䘥⯙䔞䃞㚱Ṣ㚫䁢␿⇑䙲⍣⍫≈㤕ᷣ 䩳㟰㱽⛀炻 31

ỮὪṎ悥⤥⣂ṢὪᶨ僼䅙婈炻⎗傥⤥ỤἈ炻⍰ㆾ侭⤥Ụ┚⥼⒉炻␩⚈䁢␩侴⍣⍫≈ 32

␊┚㤕ᷣ 䩳㟰㱽⛀ˤỮὪ侴⭞楁㷗▭⇞⹎⶚䴻㚱╢⹎炻Ṏ悥㚱㔠ẍ⋫妰▭㤕ᷣ 䩳㟰 3

㱽⛀╢⹎ 䵲ˤ␩Ἀ奢⼿炻✎䘥嫃炻Ἀ䴻㬟忶⬷䤷剹␊ẞḳᷳ ⼴炻ㆹ䚠ᾉ⮯Ἦ悥㭼 34

庫暋⍣㏝Ṣ⍣ 䔒㤕ᷣ 䩳㟰㱽⛀炻⚈䁢ᾳ屔ả䛇Ὢ⤥⣏炻ỮὪㆹ⑳⍰Ⓖ傥⣈徫性␊ 35

ᾳ⓷柴炻⯙Ὢ娙㟡㛔⶚䴻ㆸ䩳␿⤥⣂攻╢⹎炻⌛Ὢ㔠ẍ⋫妰炻⌛ὪἈᾳṢẍἈ▭䴻 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十四天

71

本謄本由E piq 編製 㬟炻Ἀ奢⼿㚱⑑◊彎㱽⎗ẍẌ⇘␊ᾳㆸᾳ⇞⹎Ὢ ⼿㚜⤥烎⚈䁢ㆹ⑳Ⓖ⎗ẍ徫性␊ 1 ᾳ屔ả炻␊ᾳ⍵侴ㆹ⑳⥼⒉㚫℞ᶨᾳ䚖䘬炻⯙Ὢ天㏝ᶳ溆㧋⍣㓡┬␊ᾳ⇞⹎␩㧋ˤ 2 㚨⤥Ὢ䓙Ἀ␊┚䛇㬋䴻㬟忶炻Ṏ悥㺧僼䅙ね⍣ ␊㧋◊ ⇘▭Ṣ⍣䓨ᶨ┚シ夳ㆹ 3 ⑳炻ἈṲ㖍䫼Ⓖ⇘炻ㆹ悥㬉彶Ἀ⮯Ἦ炻ㆹ婿ᷣ ⷕ悥㚫⎴シ⮯Ἦ㚠朊⎗ẍ䓨ㆹ⑳炻ㆹ 4 奢⼿␊ᾳ⤥慵天炻⚈䁢Ἀ⍣⓷ᶨ┚Ⓖ䞍▭ṢὪℯ䓐炻ᶨ⭂天ὪἈ䛇㬋 忶炻⇵䶂  5 忶炻⍰䴻㬟忶␩⣂◊▭ˤἈㆾ侭⎗Ⓖ⎗ẍ嫃ᶨ嫃Ἀ溆䛯␊ẞḳ烎 6 ⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉␩⤥⣂嫅Ἀ䓨␊ᾳ㨇㚫⍣嫃ㆹ゛㓡┬▭⛘㕡ˤ椾⃰ ␩嫃炻␊⹎㴱⍲㚱ℑᾳⰌ 7 㫉炻ᶨᾳ⯙ὪṲ㫉▭⣏䵕ᾖ↢␿シ⢾炻␩゛㓡┬⣏䵕ᾖ烊⎎ᶨᾳ⯙Ὢἄ䁢㱽⛀㛔幓 8 Ἂ㖍ⷠ ᾳ⯳剹▘昋㗪悥⤥⣂⓷柴炻ㆹ㚱ℑᾳ悐↮゛嫃▭ˤ 9 䫔ᶨᾳ⃰ 嫃⣏䵕ᾖㆹ▭⺢嬘炻ㆹ柕⃰ 㚱㍸忶⯙Ὢ娙⮵㕤␊ᾳ⣏䵕ᾖ䨞䪇㤕ᷣ 䩳 10

㟰㱽⛀▭奺刚⎴❳傥≃ὪⒼὪ⎗ẍ䛇ὪㅱẀ⇘␊┚炻℞⮎塷朊ⒼὪ娙Ἂ䚋䭉␩䯉 1

╖炻Ὢㆸᾳ忶䦳䓙勱㒔ᾳ㧁㚠⶚䴻Ὢ⋩↮ᷳ ⚘暋炻Ὢㆹ␩嫃炻⎗ẍ娙Ὢℯ⎗傥炻⌛ 12

Ὢ㭷ᶨᾳἈ䛯䔒⎰䲬炻⍰娙㊯⍣␊⹎炻⍰娙㊯彼♇␊⹎炻⍰㊯䔒␊⹎炻溆妋ℯ嶇␊ 13

⹎ℯ 炻℞⮎╢ᾳ⎰䲬塷朊㭷ᶨᾳ溆炻ㆹ⑳- Ṳ㖍⯙夳⇘ㆹ㛔Ṣ⎗傥⌛Ὢ⛐借炻⌛ 14

Ὢ⎗傥㚱ᶨ┚⎗傥Ἂ⑳悥Ὢ゛ 炻ỮὪἊ㛒⽭㚱䚠斄ⶍἄ䴻槿炻ㆾ侭ㆹⒼὪ䛯⮹ᷣ 15

⨎炻⌛ὪㆹⒼὪ娙䛯⮹㭷ᶨᾳṢ炻⌛Ὢ㚱ᶨ┚Ὢ⬴ℐℯ▘ᶨ┚ⶍ䦳䴻槿炻⌛Ὢ嬲␿ 16

Ἂ⑳ὪⒼὪ㚱⎗傥⍣勱㒔⇘▘ᾳ㧁㚠␊烎⤪㝄ㆹ⑳㱽⛀⯙㶐Ὢ娙ㆹ婳␿ᾳ栏⓷炻␩ 17

Ṳ㗪Ṳ㖍⑒㚫嬲ㆸ␩炻忯叿ᾳ栏⓷⍇ἮὪ␩㧋▭炻▘ấ㧁㚠ㆹ⑳㟡㛔㈲斄Ⓖ⇘ˤ㇨ 18

ẍㆹ╢␊㕡朊⯙Ὢ娙䓙ᾳ㸸柕攳⥳炻ὪⒼὪ⣏䵕ᾖ␊䧖␩ⶐ✳▭枭䚖炻ὪⒼὪ天㚱 19

㓧⹄ㆾ侭⌛Ὢ⎗傥Ὢᶨ┚⮰⭞␩▭䌐䩳奺刚⍣⸓Ἀ⍣  䫔ᶱ幓炻⍣炷English 20

Spoken 炸䔒㇨㚱ㆸᾳ㊃㧁㔯ẞ⎰䲬ℏ⭡炻ẚ㚱ᾳ₡拊ˤ℞⮎ᾳ₡拊Ṏ悥ὪṲ㫉嫃 21

䵲⑑◊⚵㧁▘┚⓷柴▭㟠⽫ˤ 2

⤥䯉╖Ṳ㫉ᶱ€ᶱ␊ᶨᾳⶍ䦳ㆹ⑳⎗Ⓖ⎗ẍ娙Ἂ⣑₡烎⤪㝄╢ⷛ朊ᶲᾳᾳ悥Ⓖ 23

゛䓨炻ỮὪἈ䃉⣰⍰㚱␊ᾳⶪ⺢塷朊娙㚱䌐䩳栏⓷⍣嫃␿娙␊ᶨᾳ℞⮎$ 3 €⃰ Ὢ炻 24

侴⭞$ 2.9 €⯙悥Ỷ忶Ἂ␩㧋ˤ䨞䪇▘ᾳ➢㸾Ὢ溆㧋⼿♇炻ᾳⶪ₡⤪㝄Ὢ⚈䁢ㆸᾳ 25

ⶪ⟜ᾳ⚵㧁⶚䴻㍐檀␿炻␩Ἀ侴⭞㓆ᾳ⍫侫ᾳ₡ᶨ⭂Ὢ檀炻ỮὪㆹ⑳㚱ℯ彎㱽Ὢ䓐 26

ᶨ䧖⎓ ⎗傥Ὢ䓐ᶨᾳ⎓ - ⌛Ὢ㚱ᶨᾳ䌐䩳▭炻⎗ẍ妰↢娙嬔⤪ᶨⰌ- ᶨᾳ朊䧵 27

Ὢ  10 炷English Spoken 炸ᾳ⸛㕡- 10 炷English Spoken 炸▘ᾳ䭬⚵ 28

▭䳁䙖䞛⯙Ὢ␩⣂炻␩Ḁ↢♇ᾳ朊䧵炻␩ℐ悐悥Ὢ䓐ᶨᾳ炷English Spoken 炸 29

▭➢䢶♇妰▘ᾳ炷English Spoken 炸▘ᾳcost 炻⯙ⒼὪ㊱ᾳⶪ⟜␩䯉╖ˤ⎗傥 30

Ἀ⑳悥㚫↮㜸⇘℞⮎⤪㝄ⒼὪ⍫侫▘ᾳ↢朊▘ᾳⶪ₡炻Ὢ⍫侫ᾳㆸ㛔₡炻Ὢ炻ㆹ゛ 31

嫃ㆸ㛔₡炻␩妰↢♇ᾳ₡拊㚫Ⓖ㚫ℵ㸾䡢┚␊烎⤪㝄㶐Ὢ- 䔞䃞炻ㆹⒼ⎗ẍ岒䔹䔞 32

⇅ⶪ⺢▘ᾳ₡拊ἊὪ溆⼿♇ˤ⌛Ὢシ⿅娙⤪㝄Ὢ傥⣈䓨⣂┚㔠㒂娙⍇Ἦㆸ㛔₡Ṳ㫉 3

 ⬷䤷剹悥天$ 2.8 €炻␩⯭㮹⯙Ⓖ㚫␩⣂⿐妨炻⯙娙ˬ◑炻ᶱ˭- ⚈䁢Ἂ℞⮎侴 34

⭞ㆹ⑳▘ᾳ⎰䲬Ὢ⣏䲬Ὢ$2.93 €ⶎ⎛▭┓炻⚈䁢Ἂ≈❳▘ᾳ⎓ ⁁䓐慹⃰ ⍣⇘ 35

$3.3 €炻℞⮎⮎岒Ὢ⣏䲬$3 €㬋▭ˤ 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十四天

72

本謄本由E piq 編製 ␩⌛Ὢシ⿅゛嫃⯙Ὢ娙炻⤪㝄傥⣈⣂┚屯㕁Ὢ斄㕤ᾳㆸ㛔₡炻␩ᾳ⍫侫▘ᾳ㚱 1 㓰⿏⑒檀┚ˤ㇨ẍ⌛Ὢ嬲␿⯙娙㚱ℑᾳⰌ㫉炻ᶨᾳ⯙Ὢ娙嫃䵲Ἀ㊃㧁㔯ẞᾳ勱㒔㟡 2 㛔ㆹ⑳⯭㮹Ὢℯ⎗傥⎗ẍ⬴ㆸ⇘ㆾ侭㚱㓰⎗ẍ⬴ㆸ⇘␩嫃炻⎒傥⣈㇨㚱◊悥Ὢᾳ栏 3 ⓷ˤ䫔Ḵ炻⯙Ὢ▘ᾳ㊃㧁ᾳ₡拊Ⓖ゛䓨Ṣ⚵㧁炻⯙䬿Ἀ⚵㧁Ἀ悥ℯ倱梇炻⌛Ὢシ⿅ 4 娙Ἀ悥Ⓖ㚫暊攳▘ᾳㆸ㛔₡⣒檀炻崟䡤⮵⯭㮹♇嫃炻ㆹ㍏⇞Ⓖ⇘␊ᾳ⚵㧁炻ㆹ崟䡤 5 悥Ⓖ㚫⣑₡炻Ⓖ㚫暊攳ᾳㆸ㛔₡⣒檀炻␩␊ᾳ⯙Ὢㆹ䛤夳▘ᾳ⚘暋ˤ 6 䔞䃞ẚ㚱℞Ṿ䳘䭨炻⯙Ὢ⚆ㅱ䔒ㆹ⑳㱽⛀ㆸ㖍䓨Ṣ㈽姜␊㧋㈽姜▘㧋炻⎗傥Ὢ 7 㴰旚炻⎗傥Ὢ⎓ 梇䄁▘┚⓷柴炻暨天䴻忶Ṳ㫉ᷳ ⼴ὪⒼὪ㭷ᶨᾳ悐攨悥㚫ℵ㚱㓡 8 ┬䨢攻炻㉥㞍▘ᾳ㕡⺷ὪⒼὪ⎗ẍ㓡┬ˤㆹ㖶䘥⇘⌛ὪⒼὪ娙⿒屔㓧⹄ ◊▘ᾳ⓷ 9 柴ˤ⌛Ὢシ⿅娙㭷ᶨẞḳ䘤䓇␿悥㚱ᾳ㓡┬炻ὪⒼὪẌ⇘┚◊⎗ẍ㓡⤥┚炻ᾳ䣦㚫 10 ⃰ ⎗ẍ忚㬍ˤṲ㫉㚫䛯⇘ᶨ┚ỵ⍇ἮὪ䨢䘥␿炻ὪⒼὪ⎗ẍ 䔒┚◊⠓墄䔒炻Ẍ⇘ 1

ẞḳ⤥䔒┚ˤἳ⤪⎗傥㍏䄁彎ˣ⊆ⶍ嗽忶⇘♇炻ᾳᾳ⚃㔋炻ᾳᾳⒼ╢Ἀ朊⇵梇䄁炻 12

␩㠿Ὢ㋱Ⓖ⇘炻␩⑒㇨ẍcase 悥䩳Ⓖ⇘㟰炻ㆹ⑳㱽⛀⎗ẍ溆烎␩ὪⒼὪ㚱ᶨ䧖≈ 13

⻟ᾳ优⇯炻ㆾ侭Ὢ嬔⤪⼙⇘䚠⶚䴻㈋▘ᾳ㈧⺢⓮ᶨ┚↮㔠炻⍰ㆾ侭Ὢ䚜ね天㆚优Ἂ 14

 ⶍ炻␩㧋ὪⒼὪ⎗ẍ≈⻟优⇯炻␊┚⎗ẍ㍊妶ˤ 15

⌛Ὢㆹ゛堐忼▭⯙Ὢ娙炻ㆹ⑳䩳㟰㱽⛀㬋⤪Ἀ㇨嫃炻ㆹ⑳晾䃞Ὢ㚱ᶨᾳ㚨䳪▘ 16

ᾳ䭉廬㪲炻ỮὪㆹ⑳➟埴▘ᾳ⇞偀䚠ᾉ⣏⭞悥⤥㶭㤂炻ㆹ⑳ⒼὪᶨᾳ➟㱽悐攨炻ㆹ 17

⑳⎒傥⣈ῇ≑䎦㚱▭㱽ἳˣ⎰䲬▭㡅㫦炻䓂军᷶ 㓧⹄▭⸓⾁炻ㆹ⑳⃰ ⎗ẍ➟㱽⇘炻 18

␩␊ᾳ⯙Ὢㆹ⮵㕤⣏䵕ᾖ▭ᶨᾳ⺢嬘ˤ 19

㚨⼴ㆹ嫃❳ᶨᾳ炻⯙Ὢ娙⸛㗪⯳剹ㆹ゛ ⤥┚▭ỵ╢怲␊烎⯙Ὢ娙ㆹἄ䁢㱽 20

⛀炻ㆹὪ⤥゛⸓⣏⭞ㄛ拊炻⌛Ὢㆹ⑳▘ᾳ䭉䎮屣炻⌛Ὢ⣏⭞悥Ⓖ゛≈䭉䎮屣炻Ṣⶍ 21

⯙㚫≈׀◃炻␩ㆹ⑳⯙ょ㚱゛䭨㳩炻ㆹ⑳゛䭨㳩炻ㆹ䘤奢ᾳ⓷柴Ὢ溆␊烎嬔⤪㚱┚ 2

ⶍ䦳ㆹὪ. .

23

映┇⹟㱽⭀烉ㆹ⎗Ⓖ⎗ẍ ␿Ἀ␊烎 24

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉⮵Ⓖỷ炻ᷣ ⷕˤ 25

映┇⹟㱽⭀烉℞⮎ㆹ婿⤥⣂◊嫃▭␊ᾳ炻℞⮎ㆹ婿Ἀ⎗Ⓖ⎗ẍ忂忶Ἀ▭⼳ⷓ炻⚈䁢ㆹ婿Ἀ▭ 26

⼳ⷓ℞⮎悥冐⯦㚫䓨⤥⣂シ夳ㆹ⑳ˤ 27

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ὢ炻Ὢ炻Ⓖ⤥シ⿅ˤ 28

映┇⹟㱽⭀烉㇨ẍㆹ婿ᶵ⤪ㆹ⑳䔁䔒䓙⼳ⷓ▘ᾳ炷English Spoken 炸炻⚈䁢ㆹ⑳怚┚悥 29

㚫㍊妶⤥⣂Ⓖ⎴▭㕡㟰ˤ 30

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉⤥ˤ 31

昛‍㲊嬘⒉烉ᷣ ⷕ炻ㆹ゛墄⃭ ᶨ⎍ˤ 32

⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉⮵Ⓖỷ炻Ὢˤ 3

昛‍㲊嬘⒉烉䃉婾ἈὪ㤕ᷣ 䩳㟰㱽⛀ㆾ侭㓧⹄㈧㑼▘ᾳ屔ả炻㚨䳪悥Ὢ天⮰㤕Ṣ⢓ 䔒冒⶙ 34

 䔒冒⶙屔ả炻⤪㝄ⒼὪἈ㓧⹄ ␿㚱⑑◊䓐┓炻Ἀ溆㧋䚋䭉悥ℯ䓐炻Ἀ⮰㤕悥Ὢ 35

天ῂ岜⮰㤕炻␩㇨ẍ⃰ Ὢ溆㧋㩊妶⮰㤕 ⤥⃰ Ὢ䛇▭ㆹ奢⼿ˤ 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十四天

73

本謄本由E piq 編製 ⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ὢ炻⮵Ⓖỷ炻Ⓖ娚㗺炻Ὢˤ 1 㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉⼸䓇炻⤥⾓炻ㆹ㚱ᶨ㡅⓷柴⓷Ἀˤㆹ柕⃰ ⓷Ἀ㚱ℯ夳忶⏛㚄炻⯙ⒼὪ⮵ 2 Ἀᶨᾳ㈡姽♇▭℞⮎炻ỮὪἈ䞍Ⓖ䞍ἊὪ怲ᾳ♇׀烎Ἀ▘昋䞍Ⓖ䞍烎 3 ⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉䯥▘ấ◊▘昋㗪▘ᾳ. .

4 㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉Ἀ䀓嬎ᷳ ⇵䞍Ⓖ䞍怲ᾳὪ⏛㚄烎 5 ⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉㛒夳忶䛇Ṣˤ 6 㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉Ἀ䫼ㆹ㡅⓷柴烎 7 ⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉Ⓖ䞍炻Ⓖ䞍ˤ 8 㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉Ⓖ䞍ˤ 9 ⼸㺧㝹⃰ 䓇烉⮵Ⓖỷˤ 10

1

16 時0 分宏福苑業主立案法團第十二屆管理委員會(任期由2024 年9 月6 日至2026 年1 12

月6 日)主席證人徐滿柑先生作供完畢 13

14

映┇⹟㱽⭀烉ℯ℞Ṿ⓷柴烎 15

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉ℯ炻ᷣ ⷕ炻ㆹ㶐Ὢ゛㚱ᶨ溆炷English Spoken 炸䔒▭炻⯙Ὢ柕⃰ 㛶 16

⣏⼳ⷓ╢⹎娙▘ᾳ堐炻⯙Ὢ娙㚱ᾳ㑖⮓炻⯙Ὢℯᷕ 攻▘ᾳYouTube 䫔Ḵ㡅䇯炻ㆹ 17

゛⎴Ἂ嫃䔒炻⌛Ὢ℔忻崟夳炻䫔Ḵ㡅䇯℞⮎ㆹ⑳⎗ẍ䛯⇘▭炻ᶵ忶⚈䁢䔞㗪ㆹ⑳奢 18

⼿ℯ暨天炻㇨ẍ⯙ㇻ▘ᾳṢℯㇻ↢♇┓ˤ 19

映┇⹟㱽⭀烉ℯ暨天䛯烎ℯ暨天䛯▭娙炻⯙Ⓖ娚㗺⼸䓇ˤㆹ⑳Ṳ㖍⯙⇘␊⹎䁢㬊炻ㆹ⑳㗇㛇 20

ᶨ⯙㚫两临炻Ὢ⑒烎㗇㛇ᶨ炻ᶳᾳ䥖㊄⯙㚫㭼庫彃劎┚炻ㆹ⑳Ḽ㖍悥㚫㚱ˤ 21

㜄㶎➫屯㶙⣏⼳ⷓ烉ᶳᾳ䥖㊄Ḽ㖍悥㚱倥嫱㚫▭ˤ 2

映┇⹟㱽⭀烉Ὢ炻ㆹ⑳⯙㗇㛇ᶨ㛅柕㖑10 溆ˤ 23

24

16 㗪01 ↮修妲㉤⼴ 25

炷修妲⮯㕤2026 ⸜4 㚰20 㖍10 㗪0 ↮两临炸 26

FD06254 | 2025_港澳台_香港宏福苑大火_Transcript-(Chinese)_20260420.pdf

分类:06_境外及港澳台调查报告 | 年份:2025 | 地域:香港 | 严重程度: | 场所: | 起火原因: | 来源格式:pdf

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十五天

本謄本由Epiq 編製

就大埔宏福苑火災成立的獨立委員會

聽證會

高等法院原訟法庭陸啟康法官 陳健波議員 歐陽伯權博士

日期:

第十五天 2026 年4 月20 日

杜淦堃資深大律師、李澍桓大律師及俞匡庭大律師代表獨立委員會

孫靖乾資深大律師、陸栩然大律師、卓元暢大律師及劉逸冲大律師代表政 府

譚俊傑大律師及李峰琦大律師代表宏褔苑居民

律政司代表

柯愷欣大律師代表宏褔苑業主立案法團第十二屆管理委員會代表大律師

競爭事務委員會代表

合安管理有限公司代表

呂世杰資深大律師及阮文躍大律師代表市區重建局

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十五天

1 本謄本由Epiq 編製

以下內容乃聆訊數碼錄音謄本 1

2 10 時00 分聆訊恢復 3

4 10 時00 分宏福苑業主立案法團第十二屆管理委員會(任期由2024 年5 月25 日至2024 5 年9 月6 日及2024 年9 月6 日至2026 年1 月6 日)委員證人江祥發先生開始作供 6

7 陸啟康法官:係,杜大律師。 8 杜淦堃資深大律師:主席,下一位嚟協助我哋嘅證人係江祥發先生。江先生,早晨。 9 江祥發先生:早晨,早晨。 10 杜淦堃資深大律師:麻煩你好似其他證人咁將面前聲明讀一次吖。 11 江祥發先生:本人江祥發聲明,本人所作的證供,盡本人所知、所悉及所信,均屬真實。 12 杜淦堃資深大律師:麻煩你,請坐吖。江先生,我哋知道你係宏仁閣604 號單位嘅居民喇, 13 大家都可能留意到因為你都有接受一啲媒體嘅訪問,你係喺十二屆嘅管委會裏面 14 呢,新同舊你都係委員嚟嘅。 15 江祥發先生:正確。 16 杜淦堃資深大律師:你嗰個任期呢,其實你應該係由2024 年嘅5 月做到去合安接管嘅時候 17 你都係委員嚟嘅? 18 江祥發先生:正確。 19 杜淦堃資深大律師:因為你新舊管委會都有做喇,所以你嘅證供其實對我哋嚟講應該係好有 20 用,有啲之前管委會發生嘅事,我哋可能都要麻煩你去協助。 21 江祥發先生:冇問題。 22 杜淦堃資深大律師:另外,我想問你就係徐滿柑先生上個禮拜作證嘅時候,你有冇聽到佢嘅 23 證供? 24 江祥發先生:有。 25 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,所以有時我可能會重複番一啲佢講嘅嘢,我知道你喺度呢,我可能 26 會簡單一啲咁去轉述。 27 江祥發先生:冇問題。 28 杜淦堃資深大律師:我都有留意過一啲媒體嘅報導想睇下係咪準確,你係咪做過另外一個法 29 團嘅委員㗎都係? 30 江祥發先生:係。 31 杜淦堃資深大律師:嗰個係將軍澳日出康城,係咪? 32 江祥發先生:正確。 33 杜淦堃資深大律師:係嘞,但係係當然喺大火嘅時候,同埋喺之前嘅一段時間你都喺宏福苑 34

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十五天

2 本謄本由Epiq 編製 居住喇,係咪呀? 1 江祥發先生:係。 2 杜淦堃資深大律師:為咗協助我哋進一步了解你嘅證供,我想麻煩你講一講你從事啲咩嘢嘅 3 工作,你之前可能對於裝修,或者維修嘅一啲經驗,可唔可以講畀委員會聽? 4 江祥發先生:好呀,我係開設計公司嘅,或者維修工程我都有涉獵到嘅,咁就所以即係譬如 5 對裝修嗰啲程序都有少少認識。 6 杜淦堃資深大律師:你有律師代表你喇。 7 江祥發先生:係。 8 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋見到你都提交咗兩份好詳細嘅證人陳述書,我相信你都會確認呢兩 9 份陳述書個內容係準確嘅? 10 江祥發先生:係準確嘅。 11 杜淦堃資深大律師:麻煩你,我想一開始問一問你嘅就係你對於宏福苑大維修嘅關注,你係 12 幾時開始對呢件事有關注同埋幾時開始有份參加? 13 江祥發先生:我諗我其實每一屆我都有去儘量--盡辦法去參選,即係每一次譬如話選舉委員 14 我都有參加,我目的就希望即係喚醒啲年青人多啲關注自己個屋苑,係呀,因為我 15 哋都差唔多,即係我哋住咗喺度咁耐,都四十幾年樓,就算你廿歲買樓,你都六十 16 幾歲喇,咁我都有即係同啲舊嗰啲委員都有時見到都傾兩句,就話「喂,你哋都差 17 唔多一把年紀喇」,我識嗰啲差唔多七十歲㗎嘞,「咁你哋會唔會退落嚟即係畀其 18 他新嘅後生仔去試下?」,咁我就其實喺網上面都有「啊,你哋會唔會係試下參選 19 多啲,即係關注下屋苑嘅事務?咁呀鼓勵多啲年青人去參加每一次個法團選舉」。 20 我都希望做一個以身作則嘅榜樣,咁我去參選,但係我每屆都有參選,但係都屢戰 21 屢敗。係嘞,個問題就在於--癥結所在就在於個授權票,係嘞,因為佢哋舊法團呢 22 就係有一啲鐵票,每一次參選呢,其實都係即係好難進入到去嘅,就算你進入到去 23 呢,因為我都有啲同啲街坊以前都入過法團做,但係都好氣餒,就係話個法團係即 24 係唔會畀你咁容易即係延續落去或者繼續做嘅,可能用其他手段可能會--或者下一 25 次投票,咁你就唔見咗㗎嘞。 26 杜淦堃資深大律師:我停一停你先,你第一次成功加入管委會係咪喺2024 年5 月嗰次? 27 江祥發先生:正確。 28 杜淦堃資深大律師:嗰次點解又搞得掂呢?即係你... 29 江祥發先生:嗰次點解搞得掂呢?就係因為我停車--我上一次同嗰個委員--有嗰個委員講, 30 咁佢喺停車場撞見我,就問我,「啊,你有冇興趣參加下法團嘅事務呀?」我話 31 「我每一次都有興趣,我每一次都有參加,但係每一次都即係入選唔到,我都唔知 32 點解。」我問番,「咁你係咪有興趣呀?」我話「係」,咁我話「你就算今次你唔 33 叫我,我都會參加」,所以話「啊,我--或者我幫你引薦下喇。」即係嗰個--所以 34 當天我參選我係高票數當選,我係九百幾票,即係係最top 嗰個即係選舉。因為舊 35 嘅街坊,即係佢有啲鐵票係支持我喇,因為佢引薦咗我吖嘛,咁有啲新嘅街坊亦都 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十五天

3 本謄本由Epiq 編製 知我為人點樣,所以佢哋個個都投我一票,所以我票數比較多啲。 1 杜淦堃資深大律師:引薦你嗰個係邊個嚟㗎? 2 江祥發先生:吓? 3 杜淦堃資深大律師:引薦你嗰個係邊個嚟? 4 江祥發先生:莫華滿。 5 杜淦堃資深大律師:佢就冇做嘞跟住? 6 江祥發先生:佢有做,佢有做。 7 杜淦堃資深大律師:佢有做,係。 8 江祥發先生:一齊做,嗄。 9 杜淦堃資深大律師:好嘞,咁我想問下你喺--呢個係2024 年5 月喇,咁我想問下你喺 10 2024 年較早時間,1 月28 號,個特別業主大會呢,我哋知道嗰個係表決用宏業嚟 11 做承建商,嗰個你有冇參與嗰個? 12 江祥發先生:有,當日我有出席。 13 杜淦堃資深大律師:似乎有啲業主已經就表決嘅內容同埋個方式喺嗰次已經有啲爭議,可唔 14 可以咁講? 15 江祥發先生:或者我講下當時個情景。當時就係即係表決係1 月28 號嗰日就表決宏業--即 16 係選舉一個承辦商,咁呢就當日個街坊人數,現場人數都係得嗰我諗係二百人喥 17 喇,咁就現場有黃碧嬌出現,係嘞,仲有佢所謂嘅義工團隊,咁黃碧嬌出現呢,佢 18 亦都帶咗一批義工團隊係唔係好友善嘅,我哋喺排隊之中嗰啲所謂義工團隊佢又排 19 喎,我唔知點解佢又排喇,佢又排隊。但係亦都喺我哋排隊之間呢,亦都有少少磨 20 擦,即係佢好呼喝啲街坊,惺惺作態咁樣呀,即係有啲阻撓咁樣囉。我最記得有一 21 個情況呢,就係有一個街坊落嚟攞番佢張選票,但係佢攞嗰陣時就啱啱正正就話畀 22 人攞咗,咁畀人攞咗呢,咁佢問邊個攞咗佢,褸屘搵到嗰個人出嚟,嗰個係女子嚟 23 嘅,佢呢就揸住咗人哋街坊嗰個選--即係選票,就攞咗去,變咗佢冇咗個選票呢, 24 嗰個即係正式業主嗰個呢就喺度投訴。當時黃碧嬌呢即係勸開咁樣,就即係拿拿聲 25 就即係拉走嗰個女子,佢話「一場誤會,一場誤會」,當時嗰個即係業主亦都有報 26 警嘅,亦都有報警處理,跟住就可能即係記錄在案,警方調查之後--因為最終呢個 27 我唔知喇,即係聽番嚟講,最終就係因為嗰個即係簽名,冒簽嗰張係佢媽咪簽嘅, 28 所以變咗呢就嗰個業主就最終都冇特別去跟進囉。 29 杜淦堃資深大律師:你畀咗呢個例子,呢個係咪其實就係你喺第二份證人供詞,你第77 至 30 78 段,其實你有提到呢件事嘅? 31 江祥發先生:正確。 32 杜淦堃資深大律師:同一件事嚟嘅,係咪? 33 江祥發先生:係。 34 杜淦堃資深大律師:似乎就係當時有業主就打算投票嘅時候,發覺自己個單位嘅票,學你頭 35 先咁講,畀另外一位人士攞咗,後來發覺就係想投票嗰個人嘅媽媽其實授權咗第二 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十五天

4 本謄本由Epiq 編製 啲人去投票? 1 江祥發先生:係。 2 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係你呢件事上高,我想問下你識唔識嗰兩位業主㗎?即係嗰日當時... 3 江祥發先生:唔識,唔識。 4 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔識嘅。 5 江祥發先生:係。 6 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係其實你都係講番你一啲現場嘅觀察,係咪? 7 江祥發先生:係。 8 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,至於背後佢哋係咪真係有授權,或者佢兩母女之後之間點樣去處理 9 呢一件事,你有冇同佢哋去討論或者有冇參與? 10 江祥發先生:我冇參與。 11 杜淦堃資深大律師:冇參與,即係其實你都係講番你現場見到嘅嘢? 12 江祥發先生:係嘞,唔。 13 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白。好嘞,除咗呢一樣嘢之外,就2024 年1 月28 號嗰個特別大 14 會,你當時未係管委,你只係作為一個居民咁去參與? 15 江祥發先生:係,係。 16 杜淦堃資深大律師:有冇其他嘢關於嗰一日個大會你想話畀委員會知㗎? 17 江祥發先生:就係因為我哋投票--現場投票呢可能得二百幾人,但係出嚟嗰個即係票數有成 18 五百幾,我唔知有冇記錯。就係又係有一拃授權票就喺裏面加插咗落去嘅,其實每 19 一次選舉嗰個最後嗰個都有一拃票係即係會擺落個票箱度,影響即係最終嗰個結 20 果,所以話個授權票係一個比較大嘅問題。 21 杜淦堃資深大律師:當然我哋知道其實關於授權票呢個議題、呢個爭議,好喺聽證會都聽到 22 多街坊會講嘅。好嘞,就呢一方面,因為你舊同新管委會你都有參與,你喺去做管 23 委之前,同埋做管委之後,就授權票嗰個管理方法,你哋有冇做過啲咩去對應番街 24 坊嗰個可能對呢樣嘢個擔心或者嗰個憂慮? 25 江祥發先生:我哋--舊嗰個我應該知得唔多嘅,因為其實呢,我就算舊嗰個即係入咗去參加 26 佢哋嗰個即係舊法團,其實我都被孤立嘅,即係每次開會或者有啲咩嘢文件呀,我 27 都未必可以攞到嘅,even 即係甚至係工程會,佢都係即係可能係喺即係我啲工作 28 時間去開嘅。所以你話嗰個即係授權票呢,我哋即係只有鼓勵啲街坊直接落嚟投 29 票,唔好即係再用授權票,我話「應該你自己要關心番自己嘅屋苑,唔好假手於 30 人,自己落嚟投票。」 31 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢個係舊法團,即係舊管委會嘅時間。即係如果你回答我個問題就係其 32 實因為你覺得你自己都做唔到啲咩,有啲被孤立,所以就冇去到處理一啲授權票嘅 33 憂慮,唯一你講到嘅就係似乎有鼓勵啲街坊就唔好授權畀人,自己嚟開會喇咁。好 34 嘞,去到新嘅管委會,你哋有冇做啲咩去處理呢個問題呢? 35 江祥發先生:我哋都係即係--因為我哋都唔想人哋即係話又授權呀咁樣,我哋都儘量鼓勵啲 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十五天

5 本謄本由Epiq 編製 街坊即係參與番自己屋苑嘅事務,所以我哋希望每一次我哋即係開會或者有啲重大 1 嘅議決,我哋希望街坊直接落嚟投票。 2 杜淦堃資深大律師:江先生,或者咁樣講公唔公道呢?我哋都儘量想去知道多啲當時嘅情 3 況,授權票呢個概念本身,其實開會有授權票本身係冇問題嘅,只不過係有冇被濫 4 用喇,或者授權畀人哋嘅街坊係咪知道自己做緊啲乜嘢?我相信你會同意,所以我 5 哋有興趣知道嘅就係基於有啲人講係被濫用,新舊法團有冇做過啲咩嘢實際行動-- 6 新舊管委會或者,去處理呢啲問題喇?當然,鼓勵街坊積極參與,我諗冇人會覺得 7 係唔啱嘅,但係有冇其他實質嘅嘢做過,等委員會知道其實當時嘅情況係點? 8 江祥發先生:因為即係譬如你簽個授權票畀某一個人,因為簽嗰時可能淨係簽個名,亦未必 9 係話咗指定係畀邊個,可能有時佢都寫番即係某個--可能寫主席個名,咁樣授權咗 10 畀佢,但係嗰個把關都應該係喺管理處度。因為其實每一個授權票,可能管理處都 11 要核實佢個身份喇,可能出番封信畀番相關嘅業主係你授權咗畀邊個去做,呢啲我 12 諗可能會應該即係--同埋對番個簽名。 13 杜淦堃資深大律師:停一停你先,因為我諗我都想集中啲去講,我問你嘅係其實新管委會, 14 除咗你咁講話覺得應該係管理處或者物業管理公司去把關,你哋有冇引進咗啲咩嘢 15 新嘅措施去處理授權票嘅問題呢?如果冇亦都冇問題嘅,因為你講咗你哋有鼓勵街 16 坊,即係我想你集中回答個問題。 17 江祥發先生:點樣處理嗰個授權票,其實我哋真係冇咩特別方案去做,係囉。 18 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白,明白。 19 江祥發先生:係呀。 20 杜淦堃資深大律師:好嘞,至於管理處點樣去核實街坊用授權票嗰個身份嘅做法,喺新舊管 21 委會處理緊大廈事務嘅時候有冇分別㗎?定係管理處都係用番同樣嘅做法? 22 江祥發先生:我諗佢哋都係持之以恆,都用番一般佢哋做嘢嗰個即係手法,正如上一次駱小 23 姐講,佢畫個交叉,咁佢都當佢簽咗名,咁呢個就即係有啲難接受囉。即係其實係 24 應該要check 番即係管理處現有嘅資料去核對番嗰個簽名或者咩呀。 25 杜淦堃資深大律師:我明白我哋而家事件過去咗,我哋有好多嘅新睇法,亦都可能聚焦啲咁 26 樣樣去諗呢件事喇,但係就新管委會而言,可唔可以咁講呢?呢個唔係一個批評, 27 我想知道當時嘅事實啫,可能我哋而家見到有啲情況唔理想,但係新管委會其實都 28 似乎冇一啲措施去同管理處--管理處要求佢哋做多啲,冇嘅係咪? 29 江祥發先生:係。 30 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁講公唔公道呀? 31 江祥發先生:啱嘅,正確嘅。 32 杜淦堃資深大律師:好嘞,呢個就係關於授權票嗰個問題喇。我想問下你就係,亦都同授權 33 票有關嘅,1 月28 號2024 年嗰個大會呢,你知道駱小姐個口供,佢話其實當時 34 呢,授權咗第二啲人投票嘅單位呢,佢哋有個一覽表貼喺嗰個開會個會場裏面嘅, 35 你係咪都有見過呢啲? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十五天

6 本謄本由Epiq 編製 江祥發先生:我有見過。 1 杜淦堃資深大律師:而呢啲表就正如我同江祥發先生探討嘅時候喺--徐滿柑先生,我成日撈 2 亂你兩個,唔好意思。畀口供嘅時候,你都有睇過喇,都係嗰啲一覽表,係咪? 3 江祥發先生:係。 4 杜淦堃資深大律師:正如你第一份證人供詞第5 至8 段所講,如果好簡單咁去歸納,嗰陣其 5 實1 月28 號嗰陣呢,其實都有啲爭議嘅,其中就係有啲涉及宏業佢紀律處分或者 6 佢背後佢自己聲譽嘅問題喇,我哋知道而家有一個問題,就屋宇署其實係拒絕咗宏 7 業小型工程承辦商嗰個牌照續期嘅問題,呢啲嘅爭議其實當時已經有人提㗎嘞,係 8 咪? 9 江祥發先生:係。 10 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋睇番你提供嘅一個Facebook 嘅資料,就係有一個叫做宏福苑居民 11 交流群組嘅資訊,呢個係開會之後嘅,但係似乎我哋睇到喺2 月呢,其實都有居民 12 喺Facebook 嗰度提呢件事。 13 江祥發先生:係。 14 杜淦堃資深大律師:如果我哋睇番O1 文件夾,一開始1 至4 頁,我想你睇一睇番,第1 頁 15 開始,呢幾頁我哋見到有啲Facebook 嘅截圖嘅,呢個係你提供嘅,係咪? 16 江祥發先生:係。 17 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想問下你呢啲嘅資料其實喺1 月28 號開會之前居民已經有討論,同 18 埋已經有大概有啲咁嘅指控,定係其實開完會大家先有人刮出嚟㗎? 19 江祥發先生:係。 20 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係開完會先有人... 21 江祥發先生:開完會之後,嗄。 22 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係換句話講,你嘅印象就係其實1 月28 號嗰陣,其實大家都係矇查 23 查,未有人披露呢啲嘢? 24 江祥發先生:有人講下,但係嗰個即係聲音冇咁大,喺即係1 月28 號嗰個會度呢,即係啲 25 街坊再傾談,可能大家即係啲資訊再大家分享下,咁變咗啲街坊多咗,咁就有人去 26 再深入去問。 27 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係可唔可以幫一幫我哋,1 月28 號開會嗰陣,有冇人搦呢樣嘢出嚟 28 講? 29 江祥發先生:我印象中好似冇。 30 杜淦堃資深大律師:相反呢,我哋而家知道鴻毅其實有分析唔同嘅承建商喇,佢有報告亦都 31 有評分喇,相關嘅分析喺1 月28 號開會之前或者開會嗰陣你有冇睇過? 32 江祥發先生:冇。 33 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁我想問下你,你知唔知道當時你嘅記憶就係,開會嗰陣你係完全唔知 34 道宏業係過去有一啲不良嘅記錄,你係咪咁講呀? 35 江祥發先生:係。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十五天

7 本謄本由Epiq 編製 杜淦堃資深大律師:好嘞,之後嘞,你知道咗嘞,你係有向屋宇署查詢嘅,係咪? 1 江祥發先生:係。 2 杜淦堃資深大律師:如果睇番你第一份證人供詞嘅第8 段,即係似乎你嗰個資料都係喺 3 Facebook 嗰度攞嘅係咪? 4 江祥發先生:係,我有打電話畀屋宇署問,即係問番宏業嗰個牌照係咪即係續到咁樣。 5 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁當時屋宇署點樣回覆你呢? 6 江祥發先生:佢話佢續咗。 7 杜淦堃資深大律師:仲有冇其他嘅資料可以話畀我哋知呀,你同屋宇署呢個討論? 8 江祥發先生:先前我都有問過屋宇署,就問佢「喂,宏業嗰個牌係咪即係未續㗎?」因為佢 9 有一段時間係叫做--可唔可以叫「臨時牌」呢?總之唔係一個永久嘅即係續牌喇, 10 可能有啲臨時牌係有啲條件嘅,咁呀唔係正式即係續到嘅,咁即係我都有問佢「點 11 解係即係續唔到呀?咩嘢原因呀?」咁佢亦都冇話--話「唔方便講」,佢話「佢哋 12 跟進緊囉」。 13 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白,就選宏業呢一樣嘢,你頭先講過基本上你哋擔心嘅嘢就係第一, 14 之後知道可能你哋開會時候收到嘅資訊其實唔全面喇,所以就懷疑點解揀咗呢一個 15 承建商出嚟喇。另外,有一個範疇同你頭先嘅答案有關嘅,有啲指控話有假票嘅。 16 江祥發先生:唔。 17 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔。我可唔可以咁講呢?有人咁講,但係似乎我睇番啲記錄,新嘅管委 18 會就冇,我見唔到有啲咩嘢實質嘅證據搵到話呢啲有假票嘅指控係成立嘅,可唔可 19 以咁講呀? 20 江祥發先生:係,因為我哋唔可以查票,因為每一次我哋話想去查啲票,即係管理處同理呢 21 個管委會都唔可以提供畀我哋。 22 杜淦堃資深大律師:其實可唔可以咁講呢?就投票方面,其實似乎你而家能夠提供嘅資料都 23 係有限嘅,因為你其實講到最--你用嚟顯露呢一樣嘢,或者展示呢一樣嘢嘅例子, 24 其實都係我哋頭先討論過嗰一個個案,就係個媽媽同個女可能唔知道大家嗰個投票 25 取向或者想唔想授權呢個問題,可唔可以咁講? 26 江祥發先生:可能唔係單一事件,即係我都見過--嗄,唔。 27 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係即係除咗一啲聽番嚟呢啲嘢,你係咪冇其他嘢可以--證據可以提 28 供,咁講啱唔啱? 29 江祥發先生:有--因為嗰日係--1 月28 號係即係確確實實嗰個係一個,嗄,咁其他即係開 30 會或者係投票嗰啲都有啲少少衝突嘅,即係有啲街坊話「喂,點解又冇咗我張票」 31 咁樣?都喺嗰個即係核對身分嗰陣時都有小插曲嘅。 32 杜淦堃資深大律師:我或者籠統啲咁講先,如果有啲第二啲嘅例子,我哋可以深入咁講,雖 33 然有呢啲小插曲,但係似乎新管委會上咗場之後都冇乜措--除咗呼籲之外,其實都 34 冇乜特別嘅措施去對應呢啲問題,咁講公唔公道? 35 江祥發先生:正確。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十五天

8 本謄本由Epiq 編製 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋知道就1 月呢一個會,之後就大家都喺聽證會方面提過,就有要求 1 鄧國權主席召開大會嗰件事,佢拒絕開,民政事務處就有封勸喻信提醒佢要開,呢 2 個你當時知唔知? 3 江祥發先生:我知道。 4 杜淦堃資深大律師:你當時都知道。 5 江祥發先生:我亦都喺會上有提出過,我話「點解唔開?咁人哋行使344 章嘅權力,佢係有 6 權即係收集到5%業主,就有權要開會個喎,點解唔履行呢樣嘢?」 7 杜淦堃資深大律師:當時你有份聯署,係咪?你有冇份聯署? 8 江祥發先生:我冇聯署,因為我係舊管委會,個身分有啲尷尬,所以我... 9 杜淦堃資深大律師:尷尬,明白。下一個會議就係--我哋知道下一個會議就去到5 月嗰個業 10 主周年大會。 11 江祥發先生:係。 12 杜淦堃資深大律師:嗰個就冇得唔開,嗰個係法定要開。 13 江祥發先生:係。 14 杜淦堃資深大律師:之前鄧國權就冇開過一次,雖然你身分有尷尬啫,你有冇同鄧主席商討 15 呢件事? 16 江祥發先生:我5 月幾時... 17 杜淦堃資深大律師:...(聽不清)之前。 18 江祥發先生:之前我都唔係委員。 19 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔係,但係你話個身分尷尬,個身分尷尬喺邊? 20 江祥發先生:即係意思話,即係佢5 月之後,我哋有啲街坊話想即係收集5%就聯署,就要 21 求。 22 杜淦堃資深大律師:所以你嗰個身分尷尬應該唔係5 月之前出現? 23 江祥發先生:係,係。 24 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,咁嗰陣冇尷尬,你哋有冇搵鄧國權問下佢,你搵到佢㗎,有冇問下 25 佢「喂,你做咩嘢唔開?」咁? 26 江祥發先生:搵到佢機會都好少,我都唔知佢--佢好少出現到喺--我好少見到佢,總之。 27 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係換句話講,你同你身邊嘅人都冇走去同佢對質話「喂,你做乜唔 28 開?」係咪? 29 江祥發先生:係,係。 30 杜淦堃資深大律師:好,去到5 月,咁鄧國權先生嗰次就冇得唔開? 31 江祥發先生:係。 32 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想問下你嘅就係,如--我哋聽咗好多證供就係話對於佢好不滿嘅。 33 江祥發先生:係。 34 杜淦堃資深大律師:點解5 月嗰陣又選番佢嘅,2024 年5 月? 35 江祥發先生:其實佢好𠍁水,佢差唔多係即係嗰日係--嗰次係即係有十--即係佢差唔多係尾 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十五天

9 本謄本由Epiq 編製 二,啱啱夠數佢入到圍。 1 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係即係雖然有不滿,但係佢都攞夠票去繼續做? 2 江祥發先生:原因就係授權票嗰個影響。 3 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想問一問你嘅就係,你喺你嘅證人供詞第9 段嗰陣,你就講到當時嗰 4 啲不滿,但係佢夠授權票,所以你就覺得佢可以繼續當選。你後來有補充嘅,你第 5 二份證人供詞第82 段嗰度提到,你有一啲嘅觀察,尤其是你哋--你都唔係第一位 6 街坊講,你就話有位陳球強先生佢主持嗰次嘅會議,你對佢有啲嘅睇法,咁你可唔 7 可以都同大家解釋一下? 8 江祥發先生:因為選完之後,咁我哋第一次開會,咁我都作為一個新丁,咁我都希望了解下 9 啲街坊嘅背景。咁我介紹咗我嘅背景,跟住就即係都問下其他即係業委佢哋個--有 10 咩嘢即係專業背景或者咩嘢(English Spoken)咁樣。 11 咁我就相對問陳生,我話點解--即係「陳生,你有咩嘢專業背景?」因為佢做 12 顧問吖嘛,咁我都有啲--呢個顧問呢個位置我都有啲奇怪,因為我其他屋苑都冇呢 13 個即係職位嘅,佢係一個屋苑嘅事務顧問。咁佢當場答我就係話,佢比較--以前佢 14 做過主席,對屋苑嘅事務就比較了解,咁佢話「所以我就做顧問」。咁我跟住問 15 佢,我話「其實陳生你有咩嘢專業背景?你係咪會計師、則師,或者係即係工程 16 師?」佢話「唔係,我係做一個保險嘅索償嘅從業員」咁樣,我話「哦,咁樣,咁 17 陳生,你係咪業主?」咁佢話「我係業主」,我話「點解你係業主,點解你即係唔 18 參選呢個業委,去管理下個屋苑,而做一個顧問嘅職位?」咁佢話「我對呢方面就 19 事務就比較熟悉,但係我太太又唔係好鍾意我參選做業委」,我話「咁你每次開會 20 你都坐落嚟個喎」,嗄,咁佢就冇答我。 21 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係你想講,基本上就係對於佢嗰個身分,你有啲懷疑,即係點解佢咁 22 樣參與法,係咪咁? 23 江祥發先生:係,即係如果你係咁積極參與屋苑嘅事務,我覺得你應該係即係正正當當,好 24 似我咁樣參選一個業委,咁唔係應該冠以名就係一個顧問,但係顧問你又唔係一個 25 專業嘅背景,或者你係,喂,而家大維修,你係一個測量師或者你係一個建築師, 26 咁你可能有個身分比較好啲。 27 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁我想同你講番之後發生嘅事。 28 江祥發先生:好。 29 杜淦堃資深大律師:你就加入咗--你做咗管委,你加入咗工程組,同埋你都有參與財務同合 30 規組嘅工作,亦都有做一啲文書宣傳嘅公關組,所以你嘅參與度之後就比較高? 31 江祥發先生:有啲係譬如宣傳文宣組嗰度係佢哋即係冠名畀我嘅,因為點解有呢個即係銜 32 頭,就係因為每次開會,啲街坊知道開會都喺出面即係會議室外面都想入嚟參與 33 嘅,但係就每次佢都閂埋門,咁啲街坊就可能有啲抗--即係唔係好高興,咁有時又 34 拍下啲窗咁樣。我就同佢講話「點解你哋唔出去,即係唔有啲危機處理,點解你唔 35 去同佢哋去溝通下?或者畀佢哋入嚟坐喺度,等你哋開完會或者佢有啲問題想問, 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十五天

10 本謄本由Epiq 編製 畀多啲街坊參與下呢?」 1 嗰次--因為我哋開第一次會,啲街坊都幾勞嘈下,因為涉及到即係畀錢吖嘛, 2 即係畀錢個安排,大維修畀錢個安排,咁係咁喺度拍窗,咁我話--譬如主席,我同 3 你一齊出去即係睇下同啲街坊溝通下,咁我哋出咗去之後,咁我話「而家我哋開 4 緊」,即係同啲街坊講,即係話「我哋而家開緊會,等我哋開咗,有個結果之後, 5 我哋儘快公布畀番你個財務,即係嗰個大維修嘅錢,集資點樣安排」,話「我哋會 6 或者稍候一兩日,我哋會公布番畀大家」,叫佢哋稍安毋躁。咁我即係同主席--主 7 席梗係唔出聲,企喺度,得我出聲,咁變咗係即係入番去之後,咁佢哋話,即係話 8 「你處理得幾好喎」,即係又冇--大家即係街坊之--冇乜特別衝突,所以就佢就即 9 係叫我「以後呢啲即係文宣呢啲,或者你幫幫手」佢話,哦,冇問題,啲溝通方面 10 啫。 11 杜淦堃資深大律師:另外有個法令維修專責工作組嘅。 12 江祥發先生:呢個--咩嘢? 13 杜淦堃資深大律師:另外有一個叫做法令維修專責工作組嘅,你記得? 14 江祥發先生:記得,記得。 15 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢個有冇公開畀居民參與? 16 江祥發先生:我都冇得參與。 17 杜淦堃資深大律師:係。 18 江祥發先生:因為我都唔知佢幾時開,第一樣嘢。第二樣嘢就係,佢開嗰陣時,就喺個群組 19 「我哋聽日開會嘞」,好短時間通知,同埋係開嗰啲會唔係喺晚上,係啲工作時 20 間。 21 杜淦堃資深大律師:所以你參與唔到? 22 江祥發先生:冇,冇參與到,一次都冇參與到。 23 杜淦堃資深大律師:喺舊管委會仲係處理緊法團事務嘅期間,你頭先講咗,雖然可能唔係每 24 一樣嘢都係達到你覺得最理想嘅效果,你都有一定嘅參與? 25 江祥發先生:係。 26 杜淦堃資深大律師:你當然有就一啲居民不滿嘅聲音向舊管委會反映? 27 江祥發先生:有。 28 杜淦堃資深大律師:而舊管委會亦--我哋睇到資料顯示,其實就大維修工程,的確似乎佢哋 29 有開過啲解說會嘅,啲解說會係可以畀居民參加嘅,可唔可以咁講? 30 江祥發先生:係。 31 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係似乎不滿嘅聲音就仲有? 32 江祥發先生:係。 33 杜淦堃資深大律師:可唔可以咁講?如果籠統啲,其實不滿嘅原因有好多,有啲人其實可能 34 根本就唔想做大維修,係咪咁? 35 江祥發先生:因為而家呢個係已經即係... 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十五天

11 本謄本由Epiq 編製 杜淦堃資深大律師:可唔可以一步一步答咗我先? 1 江祥發先生:嗄。 2 杜淦堃資深大律師:有啲居民當然就唔想直頭有大維修,因為嗰個費用嘅問題,一個牽涉資 3 金嘅問題。 4 江祥發先生:居民有呢個諗法。 5 杜淦堃資深大律師:有啲有呢個諗法,有啲就覺得自己冇得參與,係咪? 6 江祥發先生:係。 7 杜淦堃資深大律師:有啲亦都係覺得處理嘅可能對居民嘅解說不足? 8 江祥發先生:係。 9 杜淦堃資深大律師:另外當然咁多戶,亦都有唔同嘅意見,我諗一個好合理嘅睇法就係,當 10 時可能可以做得好啲,但係亦都... 11 江祥發先生:絕對係。 12 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋聽到好多呢啲嘅指控,其實好多可能係一啲比較籠統嘅不滿嚟嘅, 13 就冇啲好實質有人做錯事嘅指控,可唔可以咁講? 14 江祥發先生:可以咁講。 15 杜淦堃資深大律師:就舊法--舊管委會,即係你做緊嗰段期間,我或者畀個機會你去講一 16 講,你覺得真係最大嘅問題,而你見到真係有證據去反映呢一個問題嘅指控會係啲 17 乜嘢? 18 江祥發先生:透明度唔足夠。 19 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係透明度足唔足夠,呢個亦都有一個觀點與角度嘅問題,可唔可以咁 20 講? 21 江祥發先生:可以。 22 杜淦堃資深大律師:我唔係--我哋而家唔係話佢一定做得足夠,但係似乎我哋見到文件裏面 23 各有各嘅講法,而你入去其實係想個透明度高啲嘅,係咪? 24 江祥發先生:但係佢冇一個--即係有一個雙向嘅溝通,即係居民發聲嗰啲,佢又唔理。咁有 25 啲居民曾經講過「嘩,你大維修即係喺半年內要我哋畀十幾萬,即係我哋唔食,我 26 都搞唔到呢個十幾萬」。咁鄧國權都有回應「你唔係一早應該措定錢㗎咩?」 27 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係你嘅講法就係,似乎第一,個溝通不足;第二,你自己覺得主席或 28 者舊管委會亦都可能冇照顧到有啲居民嘅情況同感受,啱唔啱? 29 江祥發先生:絕對係。 30 杜淦堃資深大律師:所以呢一個--就有啲咁嘅事,當然似乎就係好多居民真係覺得佢哋做得 31 唔係咁好,所以先有後來嗰個罷免嘅情況出現,想罷免鄧國權? 32 江祥發先生:我諗嗰個最主要嘅因素就係好短時間裏面,要求啲居民會即係半年內交錢,交 33 十幾萬。可能我哋即係屋苑又唔係一個即係中上家庭,咁變咗係好草根嘅,你叫佢 34 哋霎時間去攞呢舊錢,同埋有啲老人家亦都係即係退咗休,大部分退咗休,咁亦都 35 未必有咁多資金去支付呢樣嘢,同埋最嬲就係點解佢出律師信要去即係徵收呢個即 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十五天

12 本謄本由Epiq 編製 係費用,集資費用?佢出律師信,我哋都有啲不滿,第一就係嘥錢,第二就係即係 1 點解要用到即係律師信呢個即係手續,我哋有啲反感。 2 杜淦堃資深大律師:而聽你咁講,其實雖然你喺舊管委會度,但係似乎你都覺得呢啲居民嘅 3 投訴係合理嘅? 4 江祥發先生:係,絕對係。 5 杜淦堃資深大律師:好,就係因為咁,就換咗個管委會,而你都留低咗,係咪? 6 江祥發先生:係。因為就--因為即係唔係單一事件,即係每一次開會都--即係每一次開會, 7 都係第一,佢個保安方面就特別多人嘅,即係可能去壓制現場嗰啲街坊起哄,或者 8 係維持秩序,但係我哋新一屆開會,我哋即係可能搵幾個,就已經係可以冇--亦都 9 現場冇乜特別去滋事或者乜嘢,我哋開得比較順暢啲。 10 杜淦堃資深大律師:好,咁講番你哋新嘅管委會,你哋上咗場之後,有啲乜嘢嘅做法同舊管 11 委會係唔同嘅,你哋做咗啲咩嘢去處理番居民嘅投訴? 12 江祥發先生:我哋會--我哋每個星期有工程例會,我哋有喺中央公園搞過一啲即係分享會, 13 呢個我哋都邀請番宏業或者鴻毅落嚟直接同啲居民可以對話,咁我哋係將個即係大 14 家嘅溝通渠道係打開咗嘅。咁我哋都冇話去即係唔畀啲居民去發言,如果居民有問 15 題,我哋儘量即係睇下點樣可以解答到佢,或者搵番一啲答案去覆核番畀啲居民 16 嘅。 17 杜淦堃資深大律師:我知道新管委會上任嘅第二日,你哋就開咗個叫做「宏福苑大維修 18 group」嘅群組? 19 江祥發先生:係。 20 杜淦堃資深大律師:嗰個邊個可以參與? 21 江祥發先生:我哋管委會,呢個即係管理處,同埋即係宏業同鴻毅。 22 杜淦堃資深大律師:另外,我哋前幾日徐滿柑先生畀證供嘅時候,你都見到喺F4 文件夾裏 23 面,其實都有一啲嗰個group 嘅紀錄。你交咗,其實都另外一個版本出嚟,其實 24 你交嗰個就更加詳細嘅。 25 江祥發先生:係。 26 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁我遲啲先會帶你去睇其中一啲嘅紀錄,睇咗嗰啲我唔再重複。 27 江祥發先生:好。 28 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想問下你嘅,就係另外有一個群組叫做「宏業大維修四方組」嘅。 29 江祥發先生:嗰個係舊嘅。 30 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,嗰個我哋都見到有唔少安全嘅問題,喺嗰度繼續討論嘅,嗰一個組 31 裏面講過嘅嘢,我相信你有冇關注?我想問下你,或者。 32 江祥發先生:有,有。 33 杜淦堃資深大律師:因為你係都係喺舊嗰個組嗰度㗎嘛? 34 江祥發先生:係,你睇見我都... 35 杜淦堃資深大律師:所以其實你係喺兩個組群嗰度,你都有講過嘢嘅? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十五天

13 本謄本由Epiq 編製 江祥發先生:係。 1 杜淦堃資深大律師:另外你嘅第--講番嗰個新同舊嘅問題,你喺第一份證人供詞28 段裏面 2 都講咗,你話似乎舊同新管委會換屆嘅時候冇乜交接,係咪? 3 江祥發先生:係零。因為我都--因為鄧國權主席係同我住一座樓嘅,咁有時搭𨋢都撞到佢, 4 咁我同佢講話「喂,我哋即係新嘅接手,點解你哋即係冇任何交接,或者你打一張 5 紙都好吖,即係有咩嘢要注意」咁樣。佢答我話「你哋推翻我,你搞埋佢」咁。 6 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係可唔可以咁講?因為你個角色好特別,你新舊都有做吖嘛,所以喺 7 某程度上,你就可以幫到手去做一啲嘅交接工夫,可唔可以咁講? 8 江祥發先生:應該唔係。因為好多嘢佢都唔畀我知,即係好多嘢佢都即係唔畀我知,佢差唔 9 多係即係孤立咗我咁樣,佢有啲重要嘅事情,佢哋都另外有一個群組,佢哋應該。 10 杜淦堃資深大律師:好,我知道新嘅群組裏面,因為有宏業同埋有鴻毅嘅代表都喺嗰個群組 11 裏面,咁我想問下你自己同佢哋嘅接觸,群組裏面大家可以發短信。 12 江祥發先生:係。 13 杜淦堃資深大律師:你自己同宏業、同鴻毅嘅代表,喺群組以外嘅接觸,你可唔可以講一講 14 畀我哋聽? 15 江祥發先生:點為之「以外」? 16 杜淦堃資深大律師:群組裏面你會發訊息畀大家? 17 江祥發先生:係。 18 杜淦堃資深大律師:同佢哋開會,你會好多時都有出席,係咪? 19 江祥發先生:係。 20 杜淦堃資深大律師:另外你同其他委員有冇亦都同宏業或者鴻毅直接溝通,其他嘅途徑,你 21 會會唔會搵佢哋? 22 江祥發先生:好少,好少。 23 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋講一講鴻毅先。 24 江祥發先生:好。 25 杜淦堃資深大律師:鴻毅,如果你同佢哋接觸,你搵邊個? 26 江祥發先生:搵楊生多,或者搵--即係睇下,有時我搵楊生多啲,因為佢主力係即係睇個大 27 維修。 28 杜淦堃資深大律師:鴻毅,係咪呀?你講? 29 江祥發先生:鴻毅,嗄。 30 杜淦堃資深大律師:除咗你講呢位楊生之外,仲有冇第二個代表? 31 江祥發先生:嗰個黃俠然都少啲,即係除非有啲問題係即係好似要佢關注啲,我可能會--通 32 常我都喺個群組講,好少即係直接同佢對話。 33 杜淦堃資深大律師:喺個大維修期間,你有冇見過吳曜? 34 江祥發先生:冇。 35 杜淦堃資深大律師:你知唔知佢係邊個,嗰陣? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十五天

14 本謄本由Epiq 編製 江祥發先生:而家知。 1 杜淦堃資深大律師:當時唔知? 2 江祥發先生:當時唔知。 3 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係你接觸都係楊子文,係咪? 4 江祥發先生:係。 5 杜淦堃資深大律師:鴻毅嘅代表,如果你想搵佢或者同佢接觸,譬如喺施工嘅期間,你喺工 6 地嗰度,即係宏福苑搵唔搵到鴻毅嘅代表?有冇人駐場? 7 江祥發先生:冇,但係佢哋話一個禮拜唔知落嚟兩至三次咁樣,如果睇啲工程嘢就應該係蔡 8 生多嘅,或者嗰個監工。 9 杜淦堃資深大律師:你講嗰個監工係咪嗰個工程監督?我哋叫-- 喺文件度見到個 10 (English Spoken)? 11 江祥發先生:係,係。 12 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,王展堅(譯音)先生,係咪? 13 江祥發先生:嗄,我哋叫Nelson(譯音)嘅。 14 杜淦堃資深大律師:Nelson Wong(譯音),係。好,大維修期間,另外我仲想問多你另 15 外一個人嘅角色,你知唔知道個地盤有冇個安全主任喺度? 16 江祥發先生:有,不過好似換過一兩個。 17 杜淦堃資深大律師:個安全主任,你以你嘅理解係咪每日都喺個場度,每日都喺宏福苑?定 18 係你唔清楚? 19 江祥發先生:我唔知佢係咪每日都喺度,但係即係譬如--因為我有時冇咁早出門口,我有時 20 見到即係好似搭棚初期,有好多我哋叫「蜘蛛俠」咁樣,即係又唔用安全帶,咁又 21 瀡落去,食飯趕時間就瀡落嚟,咁我都有去同即係宏業講「喂,點解你哋啲工人又 22 唔纜個救生繩嘅,有危險,咁我都有話「喂,你安全主任你睇一睇,或者朝頭早做 23 個早會嗰陣時即係提醒啲街坊要注視下喎」。 24 杜淦堃資深大律師:好,另外你講到嗰位監工Nelson,係咪? 25 江祥發先生:係。 26 杜淦堃資深大律師:你可唔可以講一講佢個角色又係點? 27 江祥發先生:佢主力都係幫鴻毅即係睇番嗰啲工程方面嘅嘢,咁佢又話--譬如話我哋有啲街 28 坊投訴乜嘢,咁佢可能佢擒棚出去會影番啲相,交番,或者一啲施工嘅程序,即係 29 譬如話做得好唔好,嗰啲工藝好唔好,咁佢都有啲拍番啲相,或者收貨嘅物料,佢 30 哋要對單或者即係再(English Spoken)下啲物料係咪即係係嗰啲物料咁囉。 31 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁你哋管委會譬如要搵佢,你哋係直接同佢溝通定係經過其他人? 32 江祥發先生:我哋都係喺個群組度即係搵佢。 33 杜淦堃資深大律師:佢會應機嘅? 34 江祥發先生:應機,應機嘅。 35 杜淦堃資深大律師:而佢大部分時間,你哋都搵到佢?即係佢係駐場嘅,係咪?應該? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十五天

15 本謄本由Epiq 編製 江祥發先生:係,駐場嘅。 1 杜淦堃資深大律師:好,我搞清楚呢幾個個角色問題,我想問問一問你另外一個大家比較關 2 注嘅題目,八座同一時間搭棚呢個問題,呢個而家我哋--你明白嗰個問題喺邊度, 3 同埋大家關注嘅地方? 4 江祥發先生:明白。 5 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想講番嘅就係,其實你第一份證人供詞第56 至58 段提到,其實新嘅 6 管委會上場之後,你哋就有呢個議題同宏業討論過嘅,係咪? 7 江祥發先生:係。 8 杜淦堃資深大律師:你哋就講番話,其實分番幾個階段做可能冇咁滋擾,似乎係咁,係咪? 9 江祥發先生:係。 10 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係你嘅講法就係佢哋係一口拒絕嘅? 11 江祥發先生:係。 12 杜淦堃資深大律師:因為舊管委會就其實想儘快完成呢個工程? 13 江祥發先生:係。 14 杜淦堃資深大律師:上屆管委會個要求話儘快完成呢個工程,你自己知唔知道呢個係咪一個 15 準確嘅理由?即係你有冇聽過舊管委會講話「係,八座一齊做快啲,所以...」 16 江祥發先生:開會嗰陣時有講過。 17 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係你可唔可以確認,呢個係嗰個舊管委會嘅要求,希望快啲做完,所 18 以導致八棟一齊做,定係有其他原因,你可唔可以講一講畀我哋聽? 19 江祥發先生:我都有即係跟進過,即係新管委會嗰陣時我都有問,因為舊管委會嗰啲我就唔 20 係即係參與到咁多。 21 杜淦堃資深大律師:講番有冇先?你喺舊管委會嘅時候有冇就八棟一齊搭棚呢樣嘢開過會討 22 論過? 23 江祥發先生:佢有講過話希望兩年零就可以完成個工程,呢個係舊管委會嗰陣時有陳述過 24 嘅。 25 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,而你有份參與嗰個陳述嘅? 26 江祥發先生:當時我現場冇... 27 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係你有開會? 28 江祥發先生:係,我有開會,但係我冇參與意見。 29 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁而係因為呢個理由所以八棟一齊,定係你見到有其他嘅原因? 30 江祥發先生:嗰陣時就係講話想儘快完成嗰個工程就係呢個理由,但係褸屘我哋新管委會就 31 有少少--佢有少少解釋。 32 杜淦堃資深大律師:宏業有冇都講過話如果唔係八棟一齊做有其他問題,因為似乎你供詞有 33 提及嘅,你可唔可以解釋畀大家講? 34 江祥發先生:即係講番新管委會嗰陣時... 35 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔係,舊管委會話要八棟一齊做快啲,嗰陣宏業都係贊成,係咪? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十五天

16 本謄本由Epiq 編製 江祥發先生:係。 1 杜淦堃資深大律師:佢有佢嘅理由亦都。 2 江祥發先生:因為佢都係諗住係兩年內去完成嗰個工程,所以即係管委會嗰陣時話希望可以 3 兩年內完成,就係即係大家雙方都個意向一致嘅,冇乜特別去討論。 4 杜淦堃資深大律師:佢有冇講過以下嘅內容話分期如果做長啲買保險要買耐啲,或者有啲搭 5 棚師傅走咗就唔再返嚟繼續做? 6 江祥發先生:舊管委會冇講過,呢個係喺我哋新管委會嗰陣時我哋問佢,佢有呢個答覆。 7 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係換句話講呢啲資料係新管委會要求佢拆開嘅時候先出嚟嘅? 8 江祥發先生:係,係。 9 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係似乎舊管委會嗰陣嗰個意願話八棟一齊做,而家睇番似乎係管委會 10 同宏業嗰個諗法係一致嘅? 11 江祥發先生:係。 12 杜淦堃資深大律師:而嗰個舊管委會想快啲做完可唔可以咁講呢?我哋見到有一個講法提 13 過,其實佢嗰個出發點都係快啲做完想對居民嗰個滋擾減少啲? 14 江祥發先生:正確。 15 杜淦堃資深大律師:新管委會上場,當時就似乎就諗法有變,就想拆開? 16 江祥發先生:係。 17 杜淦堃資深大律師:你可唔可以講一講邊一個提出呢個諗法,或者當時你哋新管委會嗰個討 18 論係點?講畀委員會聽。 19 江祥發先生:好,我諗當時我都有份去即係和議,因為啲街坊都話可唔可以拆開,我都喺個 20 工程會嗰度我都有即係查詢下,「喂,可唔可以做完一期,做完成拆埋棚,叫做做 21 完一期先至開第二期?」咁即係當時即係何生,即係個... 22 杜淦堃資深大律師:宏業? 23 江祥發先生:係,宏業何生佢都解釋番,就話因為上一屆嘅業委,舊嘅管委會就話希望可以 24 快啲完成嗰個工程,減少對居民嗰個滋擾,呢個其一。其二,就係如果我哋將個時 25 間再褪長,就涉及一啲保險嘅問題,所以就即係佢話就唔會咁樣考慮,同埋牽涉到 26 一啲成本嘅問題,所以佢話未必會咁做,因為之前都同呢個舊管委會即係協商咗。 27 陸啟康法官:個問題好似係--你唔係--我諗杜大律師跟進。 28 杜淦堃資深大律師:我本來個問題係話你可唔可以講一講邊個提出呢個諗法,或者新管委會 29 時候討論係點,你可唔可以講畀委員會聽? 30 江祥發先生:咪頭先即係都講過,我有份提出嘅,喺現場都有問過佢,咁話點解唔可以分 31 開,就因為即係討論過中途就係牽涉到嗰個即係成本同埋個時間,同埋對居民個滋 32 擾比較即係大啲,因為攤長咗嗰個時間。 33 杜淦堃資深大律師:所以係你提出嘅,係咪? 34 江祥發先生:係,係。 35 陸啟康法官:有冇其他人? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十五天

17 本謄本由Epiq 編製 江祥發先生:吓? 1 陸啟康法官:有冇其他人? 2 江祥發先生:當時就唔係好記得,因為... 3 杜淦堃資深大律師:徐滿柑有冇提出? 4 江祥發先生:吓? 5 杜淦堃資深大律師:徐滿柑有冇提出一齊? 6 江祥發先生:我唔敢肯定。 7 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係你講到好似係你去提出呢個要求,其他管委呢? 8 江祥發先生:有人有和議嘅,但係我唔敢肯定係正式係邊個提出,但係我哋有討論過呢個議 9 程,但係正確係邊個就真係... 10 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔記得。 11 江祥發先生:...唔記得。 12 杜淦堃資深大律師:另外我都想問你,我唔使你再睇啲合約條款,因為原本合約嗰個寫法似 13 乎係話分幾期嘅,呢個你哋知道㗎嘛? 14 江祥發先生:係。 15 杜淦堃資深大律師:你哋有冇同宏業講「喂,唔係喎,跟番合約分幾期做喎」? 16 江祥發先生:因為佢講,佢話我哋搭棚就分番三期嘅,第一期係三棟,跟住第二期又係三 17 棟,第三期就兩棟,咁我哋又冇得--嗰啲合約又唔係即係寫得好清楚。 18 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白。因為合約都有話實際情況由法庭最終決定嘅,所以基本上可以咁 19 講係討論過,宏業反對,大家就決定照番原定計劃去做? 20 江祥發先生:係,亦都當時現場亦都有啲街坊都贊成係快啲,因為現場我哋畀其他街坊參與 21 嘅。 22 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係有人有第二啲意見? 23 江祥發先生:第二啲意見就係話不如快快脆脆完成佢咁樣。 24 杜淦堃資深大律師:而分幾期又曾經諗過係基於安全嘅考慮定係基於咩嘢嘅考慮? 25 江祥發先生:唔係,我哋呢個安全考慮即係其一;第二,我哋想睇下佢做出嚟個效果係即係 26 點樣,呢個亦都係我哋即係擔心嗰個工藝嘅問題。 27 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白。另外,我想問你嘅就係消防水缸維修同埋關閉消防系統嘅問題, 28 我哋知道呢個係一個重要嘅議題。我想問你當時知唔知道,唔係而家,因為我哋聽 29 證會上高我哋知道嘅嘢多咗好多。你做新管委會嘅時候,你係知道要整天台嘅消防 30 水缸嘅,係咪? 31 江祥發先生:知道,因為佢哋工程會有匯報過。 32 杜淦堃資深大律師:而當時個講法就係有漏水或者有一啲嘅故障,係咪? 33 江祥發先生:有故障漏水嗰啲我唔記得應該有冇講,但係就佢話會將個消防水缸即係維修完 34 之後轉做食水缸。 35 杜淦堃資深大律師:如果我同你解釋,我唔需要你再慢慢去睇。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十五天

18 本謄本由Epiq 編製 江祥發先生:係。 1 杜淦堃資深大律師:似乎合同文件裏面就提過話宏業要供應臨時水缸嘅,而呢個水缸其實要 2 同原本個水缸嗰個容量係相約嘅,呢個你哋知㗎嘛當時,係咪? 3 江祥發先生:我哋喺會度有探討過嘅,但係即係宏業何生都有解釋,就話如果即係喺個天台 4 再加一個即係相約嘅水缸,佢驚嗰個負荷即係唔知得唔得,我哋都有問過顧問,嗰 5 個即係叫佢解釋,「喂,即係咁樣做法係唔係一個即係合理嘅做法?」因為我哋可 6 能對呢方面嗰個認知比較少啲。 7 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁顧問點講? 8 江祥發先生:顧問話--即係我又唔記得佢點樣答,真係唔係好記得。咁就佢都好似話會做一 9 個纖維缸嘅。 10 杜淦堃資深大律師:係。 11 江祥發先生:佢都會話做一個纖維缸,但係幾時做我就唔係好記得。 12 杜淦堃資深大律師:我諗我哋有興趣知嘅就係第一,點解會用咗個消防水缸去做一個臨時嘅 13 食水缸,當其實一開始個設計係畀一個臨時嘅消防缸你哋? 14 江祥發先生:係。 15 杜淦堃資深大律師:點解會變咗--即係似乎個方案係變咗嘅,而令到你哋要去做一個比較花 16 錢嘅工程,你明白嘛? 17 江祥發先生:係,就算即係而家佢成日講呢個係一個lump sum contract,即係就算佢 18 做唔做,其實佢都話都要畀錢,因為寫咗落去,就係即係覺得係要畀錢。 19 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋再探討呢個啱唔啱,我問多你一樣嘢先,似乎想你解釋清楚顧問畀 20 你哋嘅意見,你嘅意思係唔係話有同顧問探討過做纖維缸做臨時水缸,似乎顧問嘅 21 講法係支援宏業嘅說法? 22 江祥發先生:可以咁講,如果唔係一早已經做咗。 23 杜淦堃資深大律師:你記唔記得定係估㗎呢樣嘢?因為你頭先個記憶有啲模糊,我唔想即係 24 好似我躉啲說話落你個嗰度,你記得啲乜嘢? 25 江祥發先生:我記得係有探討過呢個,但係結果係點樣我就唔係好記得。 26 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔係好記得? 27 江祥發先生:嗄,嗄。 28 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白。你頭先話顧問有同你哋講,顧問嗰面邊個講? 29 江祥發先生:楊子文。 30 杜淦堃資深大律師:都係楊子文? 31 江祥發先生:係。 32 杜淦堃資深大律師:你頭先講到話宏業曾經講過,「喂,呢個係一個 lump sum 33 contract,即係一個其實睇大數嘅啫,佢做少啲嘢都係收咁多錢。」但係呢個就 34 同我見到嘅證據有關,因為你哋曾經同佢哋開會考慮過可唔可以減少工程項目,係 35 咪? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十五天

19 本謄本由Epiq 編製 江祥發先生:係。 1 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係亦都有探討過做少啲呢個可能性,係咪? 2 江祥發先生:係。 3 杜淦堃資深大律師:如果你睇H1-3/6033 頁,呢個係一個2024 年11 月13 號嘅會議紀 4 錄。 5 江祥發先生:係。 6 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢個會你有冇份參加?我睇唔到邊個參加因為。 7 江祥發先生:應該有嘅。 8 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋見到呢度講「法團就個別刪除項目逐一與宏業同鴻毅討論」,即係 9 其實係曾經有講過有啲唔使做嘅做少啲喇,其實呢個係唔係咁講,其實都係回應居 10 民嘅訴求,不如慳番啲錢,真係要做嗰啲先做? 11 江祥發先生:有個根基嘅,根基就係要雙方同意。 12 杜淦堃資深大律師:當然。 13 江祥發先生:即係如果你貿貿然單方面減佢,佢即係唔得嘅,一定要雙方協商。 14 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白。所以可唔可以咁講?你話係lump sum contract,全部嘢講 15 咗就做,但係中間係試過傾下可唔可以減一啲項目嘅,而有啲佢係肯減嘅,係咪? 16 江祥發先生:係。 17 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係至於講到係唔係個減水缸或者佢肯唔肯減個水缸,你有冇記憶幫唔 18 幫到我哋就呢方面嘅討論,定係你唔係好記得已經? 19 江祥發先生:我諗我哋由始至終冇要求佢唔好維修水缸,因為我都冇嗰個認知水缸個情況係 20 點樣,咁佢話嚟緊--因為我哋以為呢個係一個即係一早預先安排咗嘅項目嚟嘅,所 21 以佢咁講話安排呢個水缸,同埋顧問應該係有啲專業意見,因為我哋全部都係街 22 坊,我哋未必可以知悉到咁樣做有冇違規或者係乜嘢,咁你話消防缸嗰度做,其實 23 我哋都應該係預計好短嘅時間。 24 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係基本上你哋都係靠顧問畀你哋嘅意見? 25 江祥發先生:絕對係。 26 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係就消防水缸嗰個情況,點解我問你,就係因為其實喺你有份嗰個 27 WhatsApp 群組裏面曾經出現過一啲消防缸勘察報告嘅。 28 江祥發先生:係。 29 杜淦堃資深大律師:你有冇睇過嗰啲報告或者有冇印象? 30 江祥發先生:有睇過啲相。 31 杜淦堃資深大律師:有睇過啲相。如果紀錄喺F4 文件夾1356 頁,我哋見到喺2025 年 32 中,6 月嗰陣鴻毅其實都有啲報告send 咗出嚟嘅,你睇下底嗰度,消防缸勘察報 33 告你見到,你當時睇過嗰啲相,係咪你話? 34 江祥發先生:係。 35 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想問你嘅,就係你見到呢度繼續一路有討論,而宏業何先生有講過 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十五天

20 本謄本由Epiq 編製 「請各位委員今日協商後就續處理是否按顧問建議,以便我司能儘快進行水缸內防 1 水工程,部分項目是後加工程的。」你見到呢度咁講? 2 江祥發先生:見到。 3 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係其實係有加過工程嘅,係咪? 4 江祥發先生:應該係嗰啲我哋叫做撴水位或者係嗰啲塘環嗰啲,即係佢話扭--即係閂唔到個 5 塘環,可能即係老化咗點樣,即係閂唔實,或者需要有啲更換,同埋有少少滲水嗰 6 情況。 7 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係呢個就唔係話本身成個水缸個工程後加,只係佢哋做勘察報告裏面 8 見到有啲嘅機件就老化所以去做番嘅? 9 江祥發先生:係,啲配件,係,啲配件。 10 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係我哋見唔到有講得好清楚話有漏水或者漏水嘅情況嘅,呢個有冇人 11 去探討過係唔係真係嗰啲消防水缸漏水或者呢個係要處理嗰個問題? 12 江祥發先生:好似以我印象中就係嗰個配件嘅問題多啲,譬如生鏽或者係即係我哋嗰個接駁 13 位嗰啲地方有啲滲水,但如果漏水嗰啲情況就應該喺個會度冇特別探討過。 14 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係你舊管委會、新管委會,你哋都冇真係--你嘅記憶,就係冇真係探 15 討過第一,係唔係真係個消防水缸漏水,係唔係真係要換嘅因為漏水,呢樣嘢似乎 16 就冇紀錄討論過? 17 江祥發先生:係。 18 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋亦都見到喺F4/1435 嗰度,亦都睇到後來就做咗啲工程,呢個 19 Nelson Wong 都有啲訊息發咗出嚟嘅,譬如我哋去到1435,已經去到8 月,我 20 哋見到喺第三行喥,你見到Nelson Wong 就話「20 號地下消防水缸滲水鋪瓦仔 21 後D」,你見到呢度? 22 江祥發先生:見到。 23 杜淦堃資深大律師:換句話講呢個係佢做咗個監工,就講番嗰個消防缸滲水,“D"係唔係即 24 係D 座?你知唔知? 25 江祥發先生:呢個唔清楚。呢度係佢做咗一個即係重鋪嗰個消防缸之後佢做試水,咁佢試咗 26 水之後發現係漏水,嗰個係鋪咗之後,就試水之後出現嘅漏水。 27 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋睇番個會議紀錄,如果去H1-3/6113,呢個係8 月30 號嗰段時 28 間,我哋見到法團似乎你係冇去--你有開會,第一項第三位。 29 江祥發先生:係。 30 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢度亦都討論過,係第六項,呢個「消防缸進度G、H 座消防缸維修工 31 程完成,將與管委會商討將消防缸轉為臨時食水缸安排」,咁下低就話「D、E、F 32 在進行中」,你當時有參與呢個討論嘅,係咪? 33 江祥發先生:係。 34 杜淦堃資深大律師:當時有冇人提出過或者當時有冇人畀過意見你哋,就係「喂,我哋咁樣 35 去做嗰個進度其實要睇住,因為我哋停咗個消防系統。」有冇人提過? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十五天

21 本謄本由Epiq 編製 江祥發先生:當時冇,我哋都係諗住交畀顧問去處理,因為我哋真係啲時間可能即係比較-- 1 即係我哋每日啲人都要返工,未必可以監察到咁仔細,所以我哋都交畀顧問即係去 2 做呢樣嘢。 3 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁講啱唔啱?如果係咁。即係我睇咗有關嘅紀錄,似乎我嘅印象係咁 4 嘅,雖然呢個做法要停個消防系統,但係當時可能管委會因為顧問冇提醒過,你哋 5 就冇乜呢個危機意識覺得呢方面係要加快,或者再研究下呢個做法係唔係妥當,咁 6 講啱唔啱? 7 江祥發先生:可能顧問--因為我哋冇去即係睇番當時嗰個狀況,我諗住顧問會有合適嘅安 8 排,所以我哋冇特別即係去講呢樣嘢,同埋佢之前都有講過係會有個即係纖維缸去 9 做嘅。 10 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係你哋知道--當時停消防系統呢樣嘢就大家都知嘅,係咪?停消防系 11 統呢樣嘢你哋知㗎嘛? 12 江祥發先生:消防系統--做水缸--我知,做水缸嗰個我知,但係你話停消防成個系統,我 13 哋... 14 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔係,我哋講緊嗰個當然係喉轆同埋呢個消防栓個系統。 15 江祥發先生:我哋唔知,我哋唔知道嗰個。 16 杜淦堃資深大律師:你哋唔知道做水缸要停嗰個系統? 17 江祥發先生:嗄。 18 杜淦堃資深大律師:如果我哋睇H1-3/6080 頁,似乎2025 年3 月,睇第8 段呢度有提 19 過,我哋都係淨係搵到呢一個紀錄,睇晒你啲會議紀錄,話要去消防申請掛牌,即 20 係換句話講呢一樣嘢當時開會係有提過嘅? 21 江祥發先生:有提過,亦都有個做法就係話喺樓層嗰度加番滅火筒,呢個係喺會上有陳述過 22 嘅。 23 杜淦堃資深大律師:停消防系統,當然你哋可能當時冇嗰個危機感或者冇嗰個意識。我都想 24 問一問你,物業管理公司佢哋喺呢方面有冇提供過咩嘢意見當時? 25 江祥發先生:冇,佢咪話會安排擺番啲滅火筒,每隔層擺一個。 26 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係呢個係當時覺得足夠妥當嘅做法? 27 江祥發先生:可以咁講。 28 杜淦堃資深大律師:當時你哋知唔知道其實佢哋要掛牌,要搵一啲消防承建商--消防裝置承 29 辦商,或者邊個去做,搵邊間你哋管委會知唔知? 30 江祥發先生:因為我哋知道係佢有個年檢,亦都我哋係知道係搵咗宏泰去做,因為佢哋要通 31 知--投標嗰度個結果要即係話番畀我哋聽。但係你話即係牽涉到其他(English 32 Spoken)嘅消防承辦商,我哋就唔清楚。 33 杜淦堃資深大律師:你唔知道當時搵咗另外一間公司去處理,中華嗰個你知道? 34 江祥發先生:唔知,唔知。 35 杜淦堃資深大律師:我跟住會問你一啲關於發泡膠板嘅問題。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十五天

22 本謄本由Epiq 編製 江祥發先生:好。 1 杜淦堃資深大律師:主席,可能呢個係一個適合、適當嘅時候。 2 陸啟康法官:我哋今朝押後十五分鐘,好唔好? 3 杜淦堃資深大律師:好。 4 陸啟康法官:我哋十五分之後返嚟,唔該。 5

6 11 時10 分聆訊押後 7 11 時25 分聆訊恢復 8

9 杜淦堃資深大律師:江先生。 10 江祥發先生:係。 11 杜淦堃資深大律師:跟住我想略略咁同你講一講發泡膠板嗰個問題,因為你第一份證人供詞 12 第13 至第14 段其實都講到,其實初初用發泡膠就係喺2024 年7 月到9 月,你 13 就提到有幾座,宏昌、宏盛、宏志就先搭棚網,跟住其後就做咗打鑿工程,嗰陣做 14 打鑿工程嗰陣其實已經有發泡膠黐窗喇? 15 江祥發先生:係。 16 杜淦堃資深大律師:其實係咪一黐嘅時候已經好多居民關注呢個物料嘅問題? 17 江祥發先生:係。 18 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢一方面,鴻毅有出過聲㗎喎,我哋睇番工程會議記錄,2024 年6 月 19 17 號,H1-3/6129 頁,你睇第10 項,呢個我前幾日同徐先生都討論過呢一個項 20 目。我想問一問你嘅就係當時你自己嘅理解都係好多居民擔心喇。 21 江祥發先生:係。 22 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢個顧問亦都有出過聲喇? 23 江祥發先生:係。 24 杜淦堃資深大律師:係嘞,當時你自己覺得,「喂,係咪應該說服下宏業用其他嘅辦法 25 呢?」 26 江祥發先生:我哋嘗試過說服佢,但係即係佢都係話即係佢話「呢批我買咗,亦都係上一個 27 舊法團簽署咗嘅物料」,佢如果佢話再用啲比較阻燃性高啲嘅發泡膠可能要等即係 28 用完呢批之後,佢哋先至會第二次採購。 29 杜淦堃資深大律師:鴻毅就似乎一開始就有表示過關注嘅,後來係咪佢哋都轉咗軚或者佢哋 30 冇繼續去就呢一點爭論呢? 31 江祥發先生:佢急轉彎添喇。 32 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔嗯。當時,你話佢哋急轉彎,就呢一方面你講唔講到多啲證據畀我哋 33 聽? 34 江祥發先生:因為佢當時即係喺會議上面佢都即係話有呢個風險嘅,但係最後我哋即係探討 35 過,話嗰個發泡膠即係易燃,褸屘黃俠然亦都出咗一啲即係解說喇。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十五天

23 本謄本由Epiq 編製 杜淦堃資深大律師:解說。 1 江祥發先生:就話如果你哋--因為佢係一個臨時嘅設置嚟嘅,即係擋住唔好畀啲玻璃彈爆, 2 咁佢話如果你話呢個都係一個即係需要防火嘅,咁其他物料都需要嘅,例如呢個救 3 生繩、踢腳板、棚網喇,其實呢啲都係即係要--思係話佢即係如果真係燃燒起上 4 嚟,呢啲都會構成一個危害呀。佢仲講咗句話,但係喺棚架上面呢,即係動火區嘅 5 方面就少啲嘅,咁就變咗喺呢個--即係佢呀覺得呢,一般佢哋嗰個業界做都見到都 6 係用即係發泡膠或者係其他物料去做。 7 杜淦堃資深大律師:你嘅補充證人陳述書第54 段就有一個說法嘅,因為當時新嘅管委會上 8 咗場,宏業同你哋嘅講法就係舊管委會已經批咗買第一批,當時徐滿柑就要求咗管 9 理處搵番啲記錄嘅,睇下係咪真係批准咗用舊嗰啲,用嗰隻冇咁阻燃嘅發泡膠板。 10 江祥發先生:係,係。 11 杜淦堃資深大律師:你有冇印象睇過呢啲記錄? 12 江祥發先生:佢轉換物料--唔係,即係鴻毅提供嗰個物料嗰度,我好似見過,但係又唔係太 13 肯定。 14 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔係太肯定。 15 江祥發先生:係。 16 杜淦堃資深大律師:舊嗰個決定,就係話都畀佢哋用發泡膠封窗呢個,宏業話係舊管委會批 17 准㗎嘛,嗰個你冇參與嘅,係咪呀? 18 江祥發先生:係,我冇參與。 19 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係你嚟嗰陣其實已經批咗㗎嘞,係咪呀? 20 江祥發先生:因為佢工程會都唔會涉及到我哋,或者簽嗰啲文件我都冇特別去參與囉。 21 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想你睇睇A2/240,A14 號文件,A2/240,我哋見到其實嗰個時間 22 點應該係咁嘅,呢個係2 月--2024 年7 月17 號喇,我哋見到呢度就同採購嗰個 23 發泡膠板有關嘅,似乎就宏業sent 畀鴻毅,跟住你睇下下低,一路落,2024 年 24 7 月18 號當時就「上述文件已審閱及批核」當時你冇參與呢啲事情,係咪呀? 25 江祥發先生:冇。 26 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係關於當時嗰個決定你都冇其他證據,冇其他嘢講到喇,係咪? 27 江祥發先生:係。 28 杜淦堃資深大律師:之後有啲爭議,徐先生都解釋咗喇,我哋知道之後有人試過用火去燒, 29 有啲居民自己都燒下啲發泡膠板。 30 江祥發先生:係。 31 杜淦堃資深大律師:就覺得好大嘅問題。 32 江祥發先生:係。 33 杜淦堃資深大律師:好易燃。宏業講法就有個講法,就係煙頭焫唔著㗎。 34 江祥發先生:係。 35 杜淦堃資深大律師:當時居民提出咗呢啲事情之後,你自己覺得係咪應該唔好用法泡膠呢? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十五天

24 本謄本由Epiq 編製 你做過啲咩嘢呢?或者再進一步如果你講到嘅,你聽咗徐先生喺聽證會嘅講法,你 1 有冇嘢想補充? 2 江祥發先生:因為呢,呢個真係有啲--因為業界呢,即係我哋--我都係做--即係有啲工程 3 我哋都有係即係臨時嘅措施係可能我哋會咁做,但係問題係呢,即係如果係黏到咁 4 長期呢,我哋就有啲憂慮,但係我哋會--即係嗰個施工期間,我哋可能會睇下有冇 5 採購一啲即係比較耐燃啲物料去做。但係我哋都爭取過,但係最終都係即係用一啲 6 比較耐燃啲嘅物料喺下一批個批次度囉。 7 杜淦堃資深大律師:你自己做過啲查詢嘅,係咪呀?當時。 8 江祥發先生:查詢嘅意思係? 9 杜淦堃資深大律師:同政府部門。 10 江祥發先生:我冇,冇做發泡膠呢個查詢。 11 杜淦堃資深大律師:睇番F4 嗰度有啲討論,睇下你幫唔幫到我哋?似乎有個群組都分享咗- 12 -F4/1034,如果睇十二點三十幾分,呢度就講咗話宏業嘅阿Sam 就話佢用煙頭做 13 過測試,煙頭唔會導致保護物料燃燒,Karen 就叫佢send 畀大家參考喇,但係阿 14 Sam 都話嘞,宏業「如果用明火,當然會令好多物料燃燒喇,包括竹棚同埋棚網 15 喇」。咁徐滿柑佢講咗話「公關部、宣傳部決定」。Karen 就share 咗啲片出嚟 16 嘅。如果你睇文件夾O1/23 頁,當時有呢啲片share 出嚟,你當時睇過喇,係 17 咪? 18 江祥發先生:係。 19 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢個share 出嚟呢位Peter Leung,佢係咪居民嚟㗎呢個都係? 20 江祥發先生:係呀,應該。 21 杜淦堃資深大律師:佢係咪你哋管委會嘅人? 22 江祥發先生:唔係,唔係。 23 杜淦堃資深大律師:同一日Facebook 有位Wilson Wong 嘅,如果你睇23 頁落啲呢, 24 係,你睇24 頁吖,可唔可以校番光少少?呢個Wilson Wong 上載咗條片,呢度 25 我哋唔打算播出嚟,我哋都睇過條片,其實有人用打火機燒一塊發泡膠,但係燒唔 26 著嘅,當時你睇過呢啲片嘞,係咪? 27 江祥發先生:係。 28 杜淦堃資深大律師:如果我哋--呢個就係當時share 出嚟嗰啲連結嘅引起嘅討論喇,睇番 29 F4/1034 頁吖,我哋見到你後來都有--1 點03 分,你見到呢個係你,係咪呀? 30 江祥發先生:係。 31 杜淦堃資深大律師:你話「唔好住,問咗消防處同屋宇署確認先,確認咗呢啲物料冇問題再 32 發放畀業主。」你呢度講話「唔好住」係唔好發放啲片出嚟,費事令到大家有誤 33 會,係咪? 34 江祥發先生:唔係,我即係想話就係即係唔好放啲片出嚟先,可能我哋要問埋消防同埋呢個 35 即係屋宇署有冇啲咁嘅監管,或者呢啲物料有冇即係要求,咁先至即係畀多啲資訊 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十五天

25 本謄本由Epiq 編製 業主呀。 1 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁你哋有冇去問過,或者你有冇見到承建商問咗? 2 江祥發先生:我哋即係同鴻毅嗰度,即係叫佢哋問清楚有關相關嘅物料要求。 3 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔嗯。跟住你喺第一份證人供詞23 段就話即係其後你哋嘅委員喺工程 4 會議上都有反映呢一個問題喇。但係佢哋就話第一批已經訂咗嘞,基本上你哋嘅訴 5 求就冇被接納嘅,係咪? 6 江祥發先生:係。 7 杜淦堃資深大律師:而亦都有啲講法呢就係,我哋頭先見到你話要問屋宇署同埋問消防處 8 喇,你係咪知道之後其實有人畀啲資料你哋,關於有關嘅規例,你有冇睇過? 9 江祥發先生:冇乜印象。 10 杜淦堃資深大律師:1057 吖我哋睇。好,有個Steven Choi,11 點26 分,你見到佢咁 11 講。 12 江祥發先生:呢個我記得,呢個我記得。 13 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢個你記得,即係佢話佢哋其實都了解過,其實就冇特別嘅規定,如果- 14 -你見到喇,之後徐先生亦都講話「但係要問番是否該foamboard 有通知顧問許 15 可才用」。 16 江祥發先生:係呀。 17 杜淦堃資深大律師:似乎我哋睇番嗰個討論呢,有人就有唔同嘅意見,跟住另外我哋見到麥 18 志雄先生其實都寫過電郵去消防投訴嘅。 19 江祥發先生:知道。 20 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢個你知唔知㗎其實? 21 江祥發先生:知道。 22 杜淦堃資深大律師:佢有冇同你傾過呀?你哋有冇討論過先? 23 江祥發先生:佢喺夜晚啲會度我哋有即係講過,「我send 咗封嘢去消防」咁囉。 24 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔嗯,你知唔知道有冇回覆呀? 25 江祥發先生:咁就冇再講。 26 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋見到之後喺你哋嘅群組裏面都有一啲短信係其實係質疑鴻毅或者宏 27 業呢啲嘅講法嘅,當時似乎管委會個態度就係宏業同鴻毅咁講,你哋都要諗辦法去 28 說服啲居民,可唔可以咁講? 29 江祥發先生:佢應該要畀多啲資料我哋,即係同居民交代囉。 30 杜淦堃資深大律師:或者畀個例子你睇一睇,F4 嘅1063,似乎之後嘅討論就係鴻毅出咗一 31 啲嘅通告喇,你去到1065 嗰度見到徐主席9 月20 號,見到「而家有好多聲 32 音」,呢個徐滿柑講嘅,佢就喺個短訊嗰度提咗你喇,之前@Jason Wong。而家 33 好多聲... 34 江祥發先生:Joson Wong,唔係Kong,嗄。 35 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔係你,sorry,唔好意思。呢度佢講緊宏業同鴻毅嘅人喇,即係提番 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十五天

26 本謄本由Epiq 編製 有關嘅工程,佢而家就話「而家好多聲音叫停第二搭棚同埋封窗,想宏業和顧問嚟 1 進行解說會。」基本上似乎後來嗰個諗法就係宏業同顧問嘅意見你哋聽到,爭取完 2 嘞,之後有一系列嘅短訊,我哋見到就話去希望嘗試同居民解說番。 3 江祥發先生:係。 4 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁講公唔公道呢?即係既然你哋爭取完,爭取唔到嘞,去到嗰時候個焦 5 點就在於點同居民講番呢啲嘅意見? 6 江祥發先生:係,我哋希望多啲同居民溝通。 7 杜淦堃資深大律師:所以去到9 月尾,其實可唔可以咁講?雖然你哋對於嗰個阻燃性有存 8 疑,但係基於你哋收到嘅意見,你哋就策略就唔係再爭取換,其實都係講番宏業同 9 鴻毅嘅意見畀居民,希望大家可以接受,咁講公唔公道? 10 江祥發先生:我哋有爭取去換,就係可能係即係保留番,即係而家佢買咗個第一批次,我哋 11 希望喺第二批次嗰度,我哋係有要求佢用啲比較阻燃性高啲嘅物料。 12 杜淦堃資深大律師:你第一份證人供詞第29 段係有講嘅,你話「24 年底,首批發泡膠用完 13 之後,宏業再運送新一批發泡膠板」,當時第二批嚟到,應該就係封一啲新嘅座 14 數,唔係封舊嗰幾座喇,係咪? 15 江祥發先生:係。 16 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋見到,我同徐先生都探討過,喺第二批板嚟之前有啲討論,係咪用 17 中空板,你記得嘛? 18 江祥發先生:記得。 19 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁喺第二批繼續用發泡膠嘅時候,徐先生就解釋過,佢哋其實研究咗中 20 空板,中空板似乎都唔係一個可行嘅方案。 21 江祥發先生:係。 22 杜淦堃資深大律師:可能只係解決咗一啲透光嘅問題。 23 江祥發先生:係。 24 杜淦堃資深大律師:就解決唔到嗰個阻燃嘅問題,我想問下你就呢一方面你有冇補充?定係 25 你嘅講法同徐滿柑都係一致? 26 江祥發先生:因為嗰個中空板雖然係比較即係--佢嗰個即係施工情況可能係同發泡膠板即係 27 有啲唔同囉,可能係即係嗰個--即係可能我哋攞番嚟嗰塊板都燃燒過,係冇嗰個-- 28 即係阻燃性比較即係良好啲嘅,但係嗰個發泡膠可能佢施工方面亦都即係比較容易 29 (English Spoken),所以褸屘因為個施工問題,佢哋都冇去用嗰個中空板, 30 採用。 31 杜淦堃資深大律師:換句話講,就呢方面其實徐先生嗰個講法你都冇乜特別嘢補充。你個記 32 憶大致上都係一致。 33 江祥發先生:係,係,可以咁講。 34 杜淦堃資深大律師:另外徐先生有個講法話,佢話承建商同埋工程顧問就一直都重複咗話而 35 家個法規冇就封窗物料訂立啲標準,亦都冇一啲證書去處理呢啲封窗嘅物料嘅,你 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十五天

27 本謄本由Epiq 編製 知唔知道就呢一方面,第一,佢呢個講法係咪當時你嘅理解呢?第二,你有冇嘢補 1 充? 2 江祥發先生:係當時嘅理解。 3 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔嗯。 4 江祥發先生:補充就係,因為我哋都去信過,即係亦都問過消防呀,其他相關部門,嘅答覆 5 都係冇一個即係標準可以畀我哋參考囉。 6 杜淦堃資深大律師:有啲師傅講過,其實就唔係淨係貼發泡膠嘅,其實係有啲情況之下會貼 7 咗啲中空板,再貼啲發泡膠,呢一方面當時你哋有冇討論過,或者你知唔知道呢個 8 做法,喺宏福苑嚟講,當時管委會有冇咩討論嘅呢? 9 江祥發先生:因為當時闡述畀我哋聽,就係貼咗中空板,跟住再係打鑿施工嗰陣時呢,先至 10 再喺出面做一個即係中空板嗰個保護,嗰個比較--即係係雙重保護,變咗即係免係 11 嗰啲玻璃咁容易損壞。 12 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想問下你就呢一方面,我相信我哋見唔到有任何證據你哋再去問消防 13 或者問啲政府部門嘅,係咪?即係譬如用中空板,唔用發泡膠板,似乎當時冇再問 14 政府部門㗎嘞,係咪? 15 江祥發先生:你嘅意思可唔可以重複一次? 16 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係除咗麥先生,我頭先同你提過嗰個電郵去問消防處之外呢,其實我 17 哋見唔到你哋就有另外再去問政府部門,呢個講法啱唔啱? 18 江祥發先生:係,咁我哋都有再繼續追問顧問囉。 19 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋見到24 年底,大家都知道嘞而家,ICU 有在場試過做一啲嘅測試 20 嘅? 21 江祥發先生:係。 22 杜淦堃資深大律師:而喺工程會議上高,宏業亦都用打火機燒過一啲叫做「坑板」去證明嗰 23 個耐燃性嘅,呢個喺你個證人供詞第30 段裏面講過。 24 江祥發先生:係。 25 杜淦堃資深大律師:你喺補充證人供詞亦都講番呢一段嘅影片嘅。 26 江祥發先生:係。 27 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想睇下呢度你可唔可以解釋畀大家你呢個證供係啲乜嘢?如果我哋去 28 睇一睇嗰個片就係O1/A10.1。 29 (播放短片) 30 (短片播放完畢) 31 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想問第一樣嘢,你見到呢條片係你所提供㗎喇? 32 江祥發先生:見到,係。 33 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢啲坑板其實同第二批嘅發泡膠板,其實係咪講緊同一樣嘅嘢? 34 江祥發先生:唔係。 35 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,咁你可唔可以解一解,其實個分別係點?同埋... 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十五天

28 本謄本由Epiq 編製 江祥發先生:呢塊坑板就係愛嚟做一個即係大啲面積嘅保護,譬如可能佢喺玻璃面黐咗發泡 1 膠之後呢,呢個另外喺出面再釘番一塊即係呢個坑板,愛嚟保護個隻窗,咁佢整完 2 之後,佢將呢塊坑板可能拆番出嚟就會重用嘅,去擺落去下一層咁樣再做打鑿嗰個 3 施工。 4 杜淦堃資深大律師:而你呢度提到呢一方面,關於坑板燃燒呢一個資料,其實你想表達嘅係 5 乜嘢呢? 6 江祥發先生:想表達就係話呢個坑板都--即係如果居民擔心,即係係容易易燃嘅呢,咁都可 7 能示範畀大家睇下,即係我哋燒過都係未必咁容易即係著火或者著咗之後好快熄 8 囉。 9 杜淦堃資深大律師:另外,同一日你亦都燒過一啲有紋,用嚟封窗嘅發泡膠嘅,係咪? 10 江祥發先生:係,係。 11 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係我哋見到似乎呢個燒完之後亦都唔會令到你哋覺得比較安心,因為 12 其實都燒得好快。 13 江祥發先生:好快,係。 14 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋睇一睇下一個Video,A11.1,呢個係你哋去做嘅,係咪? 15 江祥發先生:係。 16 (播放短片) 17 (短片播放完畢) 18 杜淦堃資深大律師:可唔可以咁,即係你哋喺有關嘅單位嗰度可能就攞咗一啲用剩嘅物料去 19 試嘅,係咪? 20 江祥發先生:係。 21 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想問下你嗰陣,其實去到嗰個階段,其實你哋都相信咗或者接受咗宏 22 業同鴻毅嗰個講法,都係要咁做。你哋再走去燒呢啲發泡膠板出嚟,見到有唔理 23 想,你哋想達到個咩嘢效果?或者係有啲乜嘢係想做出嚟呢? 24 江祥發先生:即係我哋希望畀個警示佢,喂,真係會著火,即係可能唔係你講嘅話搵煙頭, 25 因為佢試過煙頭焫過,但係就唔著,但係如果真係明火燒佢真係有機會好似咁嘅情 26 況。 27 杜淦堃資深大律師:我淨係想問下,即係我有啲費解嘅,就係你哋由質疑去到冇辦法接受, 28 叫宏毅(原文照錄)去解說,但係與此同時你又走去燒番呢啲發泡膠板就畀到大家 29 睇,其實都係唔係好掂嘅喎,其實係想達到個咩嘢效果呢?或者有啲咩嘢用意係點 30 呢? 31 江祥發先生:我哋希望佢繼續去搵啲即係高性能阻燃嘅即係發泡膠板囉。 32 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係除咗燒呢啲發泡膠板,你第二份證人供詞第90 段講到喇,呢個應 33 該係喺2024 年9 月20 號嘅晚上一個會議期間拍攝嘅。你相信應該同鴻毅嘅--或 34 者宏業嘅代表當時應該就冇在場嘅,係咪? 35 江祥發先生:應該係。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十五天

29 本謄本由Epiq 編製 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁我想你講嘅,即係我想你解釋畀大家聽嘅,如果我冇理解錯,你嘅意 1 思就係其實你都係想佢哋關注嘅,雖然一邊廂似乎大家都接受咗冇乜辦法,要聽大 2 佢嘅意見,但係喺第二邊,其實你哋都繼續去做呢啲測試,去證明係可能有問題 3 嘅? 4 江祥發先生:係,因為工程已經上咗馬,咁我哋希望佢繼續即係去搵番一啲合適嘅物料囉。 5 同埋我哋都係不斷向其他相關嘅部門去查詢番,即係有冇啲我哋唔知嘅嘢,咁我哋 6 希望話搵啲即係合適嘅物料去取代番嗰個發泡膠囉。因為其實佢哋講嚟講去都話呢 7 個係一個臨時保護,咁我哋亦都問咗顧問,顧問亦都做咗個解釋。我哋問過消防, 8 消防亦都話即係冇因應防火板呢個做出嚟一啲任何嘅建議畀我哋。 9 杜淦堃資深大律師:我唔明做嚟做乜到嗰陣仲?即係一方面你都接受咗,仲要去說服啲居 10 民,另外一方面你又走去燒話畀人知危險,即係嗰個行為好似唔係好一致? 11 江祥發先生:明白,但係我哋都希望即係如果做到更好嘅效果,我哋希望可以即係說服番承 12 建商去用番啲合適嘅物料囉,雖然冇標準。 13 杜淦堃資深大律師:好,我好快咁同你講另一個範疇,工人吸煙、棚架垃圾嘅問題,我諗我 14 哋都喺聽證會度講咗好多,我都唔係想你再重複話「係呀,呢個係一個問題」,或 15 者你哋係有人投訴過,即係嗰啲我諗大家都理解。我想反而係講番你哋投訴嘅問 16 題,公道啲講,新一任嘅管委會又好,舊一任嘅管委會又好,似乎都有就呢啲問題 17 作出過投訴嘅,係咪? 18 江祥發先生:係。 19 杜淦堃資深大律師:你第一份供詞嘅33 到34 段我見到,呢度講到喺2025 年2 月21 日 20 你見到,有人就喺Facebook 群組嗰度發文,講勞工處曾經喺宏福苑八次突擊嘅調 21 查,其中一次就跟進發現違規事項,同埋已經向承建商就有啲書面嘅通知。而我哋 22 見到Facebook 有貼文係講呢啲嘢嘅,你去O1/33 嗰度,如果你睇一睇。第一, 23 呢個post 係--呢個邊個貼出嚟個呢?Chung Man Lau。 24 江祥發先生:啲街坊應該,我唔識佢,可能我認得佢,但係我又唔知佢個名吖嘛。 25 杜淦堃資深大律師:主席,有個可能直接解決嘅辦法要五至十分鐘,不如我哋五至十分鐘休 26 息,等佢哋一次過解決咗佢。 27 陸啟康法官:好,五至十分鐘。 28

29 11 時55 分聆訊押後 30 12 時03 分聆訊恢復 31

32 杜淦堃資深大律師:多謝主席,似乎問題解決咗。 33 江先生,其實我想睇下你有冇留意到,當時其實除咗啲居民之外,因為好多其 34 他人都關心大維修嘅問題。呢一位似乎唔係居民嚟嘅,但係佢都有向勞工處投訴, 35 而勞工處有啲回覆,佢當時就係喺有啲群組裏面都分享咗嘅。就同勞工處投訴呢個 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十五天

30 本謄本由Epiq 編製 範疇,我哋見到都有委員喺Facebook 貼文去講番宏業工程會議嘅時候,勞工處巡 1 查食煙嘅問題嘅。我哋睇H1-3/6071 頁,第9 項,你應該記得呢啲嘅投訴同埋呢 2 啲嘅討論,係咪? 3 江祥發先生:唔。 4 杜淦堃資深大律師:法團就似乎收到勞工處嘅一啲--知道承建商收到勞工處嘅一啲嘅警告。 5 江祥發先生:係。 6 杜淦堃資深大律師:鴻毅或者宏業有冇同法團解釋過「喂,我哋收到呢啲改善通知書」,好 7 似之前見到Facebook 嘅一啲貼文所講「我哋做咗啲咩嘢改善措施」,有冇跟進? 8 江祥發先生:佢都係--因為呢啲改善通知書,我哋都係即係叫佢攞番出嚟畀我哋睇。因為可 9 能即係勞工處巡查佢哋,可能都係畀佢-- 或者即係--可能管理-- 一定通知管理 10 處,佢哋會協助呢個調查咁樣。但係佢畀通知書,我哋就要求佢攞出嚟存檔嘅,畀 11 番呢個管理處。 12 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係似乎我哋見到之前Facebook 嘅一啲貼文。 13 江祥發先生:係。 14 杜淦堃資深大律師:就講到喂,其實而家都有啲有法律效力嘅通知書。 15 江祥發先生:係。 16 杜淦堃資深大律師:畀咗承建商。 17 江祥發先生:係。 18 杜淦堃資深大律師:當時可唔可以咁講?徐滿柑先生同我哋講過,當時就基本上軟硬兼施, 19 有要求佢哋改善,有勸,但係似乎--如果我哋睇番居民嘅證供,呢啲都達唔到應有 20 嘅效果,可唔可以咁講? 21 江祥發先生:可以咁講。 22 杜淦堃資深大律師:而當時其實不停咁樣有住戶都話,睇到有人喺棚架食煙嘅,呢個係冇少 23 過嘅,似乎個情況,可唔可以咁講? 24 江祥發先生:係。 25 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想問下,就係法團有冇討論要可以用--有冇一啲其他嘅方法去解決呢 26 個問題?因為似乎居民一路嘅擔心都係冇用一個有效嘅辦法處理過,係咪? 27 江祥發先生:我哋喺會度--喺工程會度都有提出呢個問題,我都叫顧問應該要即係正式番呢 28 個問題點樣去處理,因為每次我哋都有--我哋都覺得講咗好多次,但係嗰個效果唔 29 理想。咁我哋話有冇啲即係嚴厲啲嘅罰則,咁宏業就話「係,我哋見到佢一次,警 30 告之後,第二次我有叫佢離場」咁樣,咁我哋都睇到即係有啲工人係佢叫佢離場 31 嘅,我亦都見過最初期係即係罰佢錢嘅,但係呢個都達唔到我哋嗰個即係要求。 32 咁我哋都喺會度,昊我哋覺得係咪應該罰番承建商?因為你係佢--係佢監管㗎 33 嘛,我有提出過,我個人有提出過話「喂,係咪即係層疊式咁樣去罰番個承建 34 商?」譬如我見到有一個case,咁可能我就可能即係罰1,000 鈫,咁第二次我就 35 $2,000,第三$4,000 咁樣。但係即係宏業何生就話,即係喺會度話「不如你再 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十五天

31 本謄本由Epiq 編製 畀我哋一啲時間去即係培訓,或者提供一啲訓練,或者貼多啲告示,去睇下個情 1 況,咁我哋先再作檢討」,好似係去到呢一步。 2 杜淦堃資深大律師:你有提過,你喺證人供詞第35 段都提過,你有建議過話不如向宏業罰 3 款㗎嘛,呢個係咪冇做過,講完之後? 4 江祥發先生:冇。 5 杜淦堃資深大律師:因為你講完冇人理你定係? 6 江祥發先生:唔係,佢哋提咗個方案就話,即係我哋加強培訓,同埋朝頭早早會係即係教育 7 啲工人,叫佢唔好吸煙,再跟住就畀個時間佢哋再檢討。 8 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係提出過同宏業--要向宏業徵收一啲罰款,但係就冇進行過? 9 江祥發先生:因為佢當時已經係話即係提出呢個方案咁。 10 杜淦堃資深大律師:你講到其實就呢一點,你認為鴻毅作為顧問都係有心無力嘅,呢個係你 11 嘅講法,係咪? 12 江祥發先生:其實佢即係處理咁多個地盤,其實佢應該有相當嘅經驗,佢咁資深嘅一個顧 13 問。 14 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁你如果覺得鴻毅咁資深一個顧問,佢有相當嘅經驗,但係佢做唔到 15 嘢,當時你哋會唔會覺得好大問題喎? 16 江祥發先生:唔係,我哋都有叫佢交,「喂,咁你要交番個方案出嚟點樣處理喎」,我哋有 17 要求鴻毅即係提供一個方案」,因為你成日都係啲工人係咁樣食煙,即係唔係辦 18 法,又監管唔到,我諗鴻毅都有相當責任。 19 杜淦堃資深大律師:當時--但係到最後可唔可以咁講?雖然有嘗試去處理,但係到最後似乎 20 都係因為各種嘅原因,有啲不了了之咁? 21 江祥發先生:我諗呢個唔會不了了之,因為個問題係工人係繼續食煙吖嘛,咁我哋都要繼續 22 去睇下點樣去即係施壓畀兩個即係持份者。 23 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係我所指嘅「不了了之」,可能你覺得呢個講法唔公道,我諗我講得 24 清楚少少,即係雖然你有你哋講,但係最屘都係解決唔到?或者冇改善過? 25 江祥發先生:最屘--係,你可以咁講,冇明顯嘅改善。 26 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想睇一睇,就棚網阻燃嘅問題,你哋向政府作出過嘅一啲投訴,睇下 27 你幫唔幫到我哋? 28 江祥發先生:好。 29 杜淦堃資深大律師:我見到你都參加過有關嘅工程會議,討論過呢啲問題,如果去H1- 30 3/6129 頁,我哋見到一個2024 年6 月17 號嘅工程會議,你見到你有出席呢一 31 個會議? 32 江祥發先生:係。 33 杜淦堃資深大律師:你睇下第9 項,工程顧問似乎就提過話承建商要嚴格遵守一啲屋宇署嘅 34 作業守則,你見到App70? 35 江祥發先生:睇到。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十五天

32 本謄本由Epiq 編製 杜淦堃資深大律師:亦都講話如果適合要畀證書,同埋如果適合要做測試嘅,講就似乎係咁 1 講嘅。第一,你自己有冇見過嗰啲棚網嘅耐燃性嘅證書? 2 江祥發先生:冇。 3 杜淦堃資深大律師:無論係舊管委會定新管委會,我想問有冇人提過話要睇相關嘅證書? 4 江祥發先生:我哋有要求話即係有冇證書,喺會上面,新舊都有要求,因為當時舊管委會, 5 我都係即係參與咗一個月,我都係一啲即係摸索期,我都唔知佢嗰個即係工程會係 6 點樣,我... 7 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係舊嘅管委會嘅時候,你就個情況--因為你參與時間比較短,你就唔 8 清楚? 9 江祥發先生:係。 10 杜淦堃資深大律師:好,去到新嘅?新嘅你記唔記得你哋有冇問過佢攞?佢有冇畀你哋? 11 江祥發先生:我有問過佢攞,但係佢好似冇--唔記得咗佢點樣講,但係都係--我未見過。 12 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁你問完,人哋又冇畀,你有冇採取過行動? 13 江祥發先生:因為佢褸屘就佢展示咗係試嗰個棚網嗰個耐燃,咁佢就即係話即係燒出嚟畀我 14 哋睇,就冇嗰個--即係有阻燃性嘅效果。 15 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係換句話講,後來因為燒,所以你就冇再追個證書,可唔可以咁講? 16 江祥發先生:係,係。 17 杜淦堃資深大律師:好,你嘅補充證人供詞第38 段其實係講咗呢啲嘢嘅,你話咗當時宏昌 18 因為圍起咗個棚,跟住鄧國權係要求過佢哋提供一啲測試嘅影片嘅。如果我哋睇你 19 提供嘅片,譬如喺2024 年8 月10 號,WhatsApp 群組講到話宏昌已經開始圍棚 20 網,按協議要做阻燃測試,要拍片。而去到8 月12 號,佢哋似乎係提供咗一條片 21 嘅,我哋見到,我畀--提一提你嗰條片係點嘅,喺O2/840,你見到WhatsApp 22 裏面就提到呢條片嘅。 23 江祥發先生:係。 24 杜淦堃資深大律師:停一停先。或者咁,而家呢度我哋播咗呢條片,呢個係O2 嘅,呢個係 25 相關嗰條影片嚟嘅應該,你睇咗條片先。 26 (播放短片) 27 〔男聲一:開始。 28 男聲二:佢縮即係佢唔著火嘅。 29 男聲一:係嘞,假設有個煙頭抌咗落嚟呢,佢都識得自己縮埋。嗱,呢度有少少著咗嘞,佢 30 都即刻熄咗。其實佢有熱力呢,佢都已經縮㗎嘞。〕 31 (短片播放完畢) 32 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢條係我想畀你睇,其實喺WhatsApp 群組裏面播咗呢條片,或者畀咗 33 呢條片出嚟畀大家睇,係咪?你第一份證人陳述書26 段其實就提到,當時置邦嘅 34 黎經理亦都播咗啲咩嘢出嚟?就喺度發放咗ICU 曾經喺個棚架嗰度抽樣,用打火機 35 測試嘅。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十五天

33 本謄本由Epiq 編製 我想問下你,你自己當時ICU 嚟check 棚網,嚟燒,你哋有冇--法團有冇參 1 與? 2 江祥發先生:冇。 3 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢啲咁嘅抽查,你如果佢哋嚟,你哋係咪會喺個群組度報告番畀你哋 4 聽? 5 江祥發先生:通常喺工程會講。 6 杜淦堃資深大律師:除咗我哋見到--我哋啱啱同你講呢一啲嘅測試之外,似乎係冇咩嘢證據 7 見到有好多其他嘅資料顯示係有做過一啲指定或者隨機嘅測試嘅,可唔可以咁講? 8 江祥發先生:可以。 9 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢個情況一開始可能大家唔係好關注,但係我哋知道舊年打咗兩次比較 10 大嘅颱風。 11 江祥發先生:係。 12 杜淦堃資深大律師:大家都知道啲網爛咗,居民嘅證供就係話有啲換咗啲新嘅網,而嗰啲網 13 係淺色啲同疏啲嘅,呢個係咪都係你哋自己--你自己嘅觀察? 14 江祥發先生:係。 15 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁當時你見到換咗啲唔同咗嘅網,你有冇擔心係咪有問題? 16 江祥發先生:我擔心嘅係反而係舊嗰啲棚網,因為係即係浸過藥水,又曬咗成年,我擔心佢 17 係脆化多啲。 18 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁你之後你都提議過驗下啲棚網,係咪? 19 江祥發先生:係。 20 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋見到其實證書嗰個問題亦都有人提番,亦都有人喺工作會議嗰度講 21 呢啲棚網嘅問題。如果我哋睇下H1-3/6117,第11 段,最後嗰項你見唔見到? 22 江祥發先生:係。 23 杜淦堃資深大律師:法團就要求佢哋說明棚網係咪安全,咁跟住佢哋就話會檢查。之後嗰個 24 星期做,你知唔知道佢哋有冇做過? 25 江祥發先生:唔知。 26 杜淦堃資深大律師:可唔可以咁講?其實有居民,如果好籠統咁講,有居民關注呢一件事, 27 尤其是打風之後,咁當時亦都有問過,但係似乎,對於換咗呢啲棚網係唔係真係阻 28 燃呢一樣嘢,你哋就唔係真係咁多跟進嘅行動? 29 江祥發先生:唔係,我喺兩次工程會,我都知佢換咗之後,我個人直接問即係楊子文,問佢 30 「喂,嗰個棚網安唔安全㗎?有冇證書?」咁佢兩次都係答我話「check 過冇問 31 題」,我話「咁有冇證書?」佢話畀我聽「我追咗宏業,但係佢未提供到」,我追 32 咗好多次。 33 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁我想問下你,咁你追問佢,佢又話追咗人哋,跟住未提供到,跟住件 34 事就亦都係咁樣樣冇嘢發生,係咪? 35 江祥發先生:有,跟住我問咗佢兩次。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十五天

34 本謄本由Epiq 編製 杜淦堃資深大律師:我知。 1 江祥發先生:係。 2 杜淦堃資深大律師:我知你問咗佢,你都講咗話佢追咗人哋,但係佢--跟住之後點? 3 江祥發先生:跟住之後即係佢冇任何回覆,咁我就覺得我不如即係經一... 4 杜淦堃資深大律師:你自己係咪去咗投訴? 5 江祥發先生:係。 6 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁你可唔可以講下你嘅投訴,投訴畀邊個? 7 江祥發先生:我就寫咗去1823 ,因為我都未必知道係邊個即係合適嘅(English 8 Spoken)--即係部門去處理,咁我就掟咗去1823 嗰度,就畀埋片同埋相。 9 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,所以其實你係有做嘅,你睇下O1/45,呢個係你提交、你投訴嗰啲 10 紀錄,係咪? 11 江祥發先生:係。 12 杜淦堃資深大律師:跟住你去到睇46、47,你一路,呢個係你提供嗰啲資料,係咪? 13 江祥發先生:係。 14 杜淦堃資深大律師:跟住佢哋有冇正面嘅回覆? 15 江祥發先生:佢回過一次,佢話--劉嘉敏小姐回過一次,開頭就即係話「我哋會跟進」,跟 16 住第二個就話「我哋檢測過,應該冇問題,有啲小問題要跟進啫」咁樣。 17 杜淦堃資深大律師:你睇下47、48,呢個係咪都係你打嘅訊息? 18 江祥發先生:係。 19 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係呢度講「差不多一個月還沒有進一步回覆,近日中環發生棚架大 20 火,所有棚網都助燃」,呢個係你當時嘅觀察,係咪? 21 江祥發先生:係。 22 杜淦堃資深大律師:跟住你去睇54,當時其實唔係淨係你講,居民都係有擔心,係咪? 23 江祥發先生:係。 24 杜淦堃資深大律師:跟住你有向ICU 發過電郵,係咪? 25 江祥發先生:係。 26 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋睇52 頁,下低,呢個係10 月23 號,你嘅發畀ICU 劉小姐嘅電 27 郵,係咪? 28 江祥發先生:係。 29 杜淦堃資深大律師:而佢嘅回覆係喺同一頁嘅上高,係咪? 30 江祥發先生:係。 31 杜淦堃資深大律師:好,佢覆咗你之後,你有冇進一步嘅行動? 32 江祥發先生:冇,就等到--即係我就見到中環大火之後,我咪又再畀一個即係跟進嘅電郵畀 33 佢。 34 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋知道28 號,10 月28 號有次巡查。 35 江祥發先生:係。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十五天

35 本謄本由Epiq 編製 杜淦堃資深大律師:當時你係唔知嘅,係咪?你知唔知? 1 江祥發先生:唔知。 2 杜淦堃資深大律師:如果我哋睇番第O1/51 頁,呢個就係之後佢再畀你嘅回覆,係咪? 3 江祥發先生:啱。 4 杜淦堃資深大律師:或者我哋再睇低少少,睇晒成個,係,佢呢度講咗話發現咗個保護設施 5 有唔妥善嘅地方,係咪?講咗個棚網穿窿嘅問題。 6 江祥發先生:係。 7 杜淦堃資深大律師:你睇完之後收唔收貨? 8 江祥發先生:唔收貨。 9 杜淦堃資深大律師:點解? 10 江祥發先生:因為佢都冇講到嗰個即係有冇證書,同埋係咪即係合乎規格。 11 杜淦堃資深大律師:仲有冇嘢想補充? 12 江祥發先生:同埋佢即係咁樣講完,咁佢有冇再一個跟進,下一次會幾時再嚟,或者係點樣 13 去跟進,因為呢封信之後,仲有後續。 14 杜淦堃資深大律師:你講埋個後續? 15 江祥發先生:後續就係有嘢跌落嚟,包括有石頭喺棚架跌落嚟,包括有支竹枝喺棚架飛落 16 嚟。 17 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁你有冇投訴? 18 江祥發先生:有。 19 杜淦堃資深大律師:投訴畀邊個? 20 江祥發先生:開頭佢--我畀咗佢,跟住同埋勞工處都有。 21 杜淦堃資深大律師:佢哋點回覆? 22 江祥發先生:咪即係話「我哋收到你嘅投訴,咁我哋會跟進」。 23 杜淦堃資深大律師:如果我哋睇一睇,為咗完整性我哋都睇一睇O1/59 頁,我哋再睇 24 O1/62,呢啲都係當時嘅一啲回覆,係咪? 25 江祥發先生:係。 26 杜淦堃資深大律師:就呢幾件事,你係--想問一問你先,你係管委會嘅成員? 27 江祥發先生:係。 28 杜淦堃資深大律師:就呢啲事情,你應該喺管委會度有討論過? 29 江祥發先生:因為我喺管委會嗰度,就即係問過承辦商,但係佢哋冇好直接答我,即係我覺 30 得再問落去都作用唔大,所以我都即係冇去跟進,咁我直接寫畀即係政府部門,希 31 望佢哋即係有法定嘅權力去跟進,我當時我冇同管委會講。 32 杜淦堃資深大律師:就嗰個潛在嘅火警危險,我哋睇過呢啲回覆,似乎冇直接處理? 33 江祥發先生:係。 34 杜淦堃資深大律師:你有冇其他嘅資料可以補充? 35 江祥發先生:因為都要睇番嗰個棚網有冇阻燃性嗰個,因為佢新用嗰啲棚網,我哋都有啲擔 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十五天

36 本謄本由Epiq 編製 憂係咪即係合格,同埋有耐燃嘅功能。 1 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白。我哋見到呢個電郵已經帶到我哋去2025 年嘅11 月24 號。 2 江祥發先生:係。 3 杜淦堃資深大律師:所以同--其實同火警嘅時候已經好近。 4 江祥發先生:好近。 5 杜淦堃資深大律師:所以就呢個題目應該冇其他嘅有關嘅證據,係咪? 6 江祥發先生:係。 7 杜淦堃資深大律師:好,想同你探討另外一個題目,其實嗰個係關於個生口,同埋逃生樓梯 8 嘅問題,因為你喺證人供詞亦都有講到一啲你自己嘅睇法,或者當時管委會嘅情 9 況。你第一份證人供詞54 段,你講過話,據你嘅理解,施工期其實大家都知道, 10 有啲窗就拆咗,裝咗木板,愛嚟畀啲工人爬出爬入。咁亦都有講過,工程會議度講 11 過,佢哋用完收工要鎖番好嗰個窗,個出入口嘅。 12 你喺你嘅補充證人供詞第35 段裏面提到,喺2024 年8 月7 日,舊嘅管委會 13 個WhatsApp 群組裏面,宏業係申請喺15 樓開生口,當時鄧國權係有提出過啲講 14 法嘅,睇法嘅,佢咁講「容許我這外行人給點意見,該窗位應否選用防火或耐火嘅 15 物料」。 16 江祥發先生:係。 17 杜淦堃資深大律師:換句話講,即係除咗--你落少少,呢個。 18 頭先--你好。頭先我哋講過鄧國權先生就提咗一句咁嘅說話。 19 江祥發先生:係。 20 杜淦堃資深大律師:可唔可以咁講?我哋一路都睇過,你哋提供嘅資料裏面有冇就生口呢度 21 有其他嘅討論,似乎講咗呢一句之後,都冇乜繼續有--就生口呢度,大家對於個火 22 警風險有任何嘅討論,可唔可以咁講? 23 江祥發先生:可以。 24 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係當時其實你哋係唔意識到嗰個問題嘅,係咪? 25 江祥發先生:係,因為我哋諗住個生口可能就畀--方便啲即係工人去進出,咁我哋係關注個 26 防盜會多啲。 27 杜淦堃資深大律師:你喺你證人供詞第55 段都提到,如果我哋睇番新嗰份--唔係,WS2, 28 應該係,1358,舊嗰份。58--55,係,sorry,55 至啱。你都提到呢個逃生樓 29 梯玻璃磚係咪防火規管嘅問題嘅。 30 江祥發先生:係。 31 杜淦堃資深大律師:或者你都可以同我哋解釋一下當時個情況係點?你哋嘅討論。 32 江祥發先生:因為我哋有啲玻璃磚係爛咗嘅,咁大維修需要更換嘅。咁有啲--我哋工程會度 33 有啲街坊都即係提出話,嗰啲玻璃磚需唔需要係一啲即係耐火磚咁樣,咁佢哋都 34 話,即係顧問楊子文答,佢話問過呢個ICU,就話即係我哋而家係做維修,係,我 35 哋唔係即係重新去起,咁個要求方面,就維修以前係用咩嘢物料,就用番咩嘢物料 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十五天

37 本謄本由Epiq 編製 去做,咁就okay㗎嘞,咁以前嗰啲磚係--即係應該係冇特別嘅即係防火嗰啲要求 1 嘅,所以佢就可能會即係用番一般嘅玻璃磚去咁樣砌番落去,呢個係顧問嘅解釋。 2 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白,所以就生口呢個議題,如果好籠統咁講,咁樣去歸納,我睇下你 3 同唔同意?我哋而家見到當然一個好大嘅問題。 4 江祥發先生:係。 5 杜淦堃資深大律師:當日對於火警呢個逃生嘅設施係有不足嘅地方。 6 江祥發先生:係。 7 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係當時,第一,我諗大家都冇嗰個意識,而鴻毅同宏業亦都冇同你哋 8 去特別咁提過呢個係一個風險? 9 江祥發先生:係。因為即係應該顧問係一個資深嘅即係顧問,其實佢應該喺呢方面應該提供 10 多啲即係資訊,或者係一啲即係點樣減少個安全隱患,應該係協助即係居民,即係 11 或者提供一啲資料畀我哋即係管委會去考慮嘅。但係佢哋即係喺呢方面,即係佢都 12 覺得--即係啲工人都覺得日日出入,同埋佢哋都有--蔡生成日都擒出擒入都經呢個 13 即係生口去做,咁佢都應該留意到係嗰個即係個用料,或者係嗰個即係物料合唔合 14 適,佢應該呢度提供一啲資訊畀我哋,如果我哋知道,我諗我哋會處理。 15 杜淦堃資深大律師:你都係宏福苑嘅居民。 16 江祥發先生:係。 17 杜淦堃資深大律師:雖然你有律師團隊嘅代表,但係同其他人一樣,我都想畀個機會你,有 18 冇其他嘢,你想同委員會講?你兩份證人供詞裏面提過嘅嘢,我諗我哋睇到㗎嘞。 19 江祥發先生:係。 20 杜淦堃資深大律師:有冇嘢想補充? 21 江祥發先生:咁首先,好多謝主席同埋各位委員,同埋資深大律師杜淦堃先生,咁我哋希望 22 即係喺呢個聽證會,我哋提出啲資料可以幫到呢個聽證會。咁就宏福苑呢個火災, 23 我都好感謝呢個消防員、救護員同埋警務人員嘅幫忙,咁今次有一百六十八位街坊 24 同埋何偉豪先生罹難,咁我都覺得好難過同埋痛心,咁我對死者家屬都表示深切慰 25 問。 26 咁呢場火災,我喺我人生之中,都留下不可磨滅嘅烙印。我每一次見到街坊, 27 我都好難過,因為啲街坊同我講,就話佢哋都要睇心理醫生同埋精神科醫生,包括 28 我太太,每次行過宏福苑都喊,即係好傷感。其實呢個大維修都發出咗好多警號, 29 咁好多執法嘅部門都係冇認真去履行番佢個職責,我已經發咗好多次電郵,喺案發 30 之前亦都好近嘅距離,我都已經係即係再三提醒佢哋「喂,加強呢個即係跟進。」 31 中環大火我亦都有一個溫馨提示「喂,可唔可以嚴肅跟進下?」我做晒我應該要做 32 嘅嘢,我都覺得有啲譬如話電郵我都再提,譬如話ICU 唔夠,我亦都發咗去勞工 33 處。 34 而啲棚網亦都係即係冇咗個保護性,其實好危險就話即係最後有啲嘢喺棚網跌 35 落嚟,嗰段時間正正係可能11 點鐘或者係晏晝時間,因為嗰條通道亦都係好繁 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十五天

38 本謄本由Epiq 編製 忙,有人行嘅,好彩唔係發生喺朝頭早。咁喺成個投訴裏面我都係即係針對個棚網 1 嗰個安全問題,我都希望即係執法嘅部門係主力巡查或者即係跟進好啲。我諗如果 2 係早啲去做,呢個即係火災我諗即係絕對可以避免,我盡咗我嘅能力去做咗一切我 3 可以做嘅嘢,但係真係講一聲,只係可以好無奈。 4 我諗推行呢個即係大維修計劃,我諗可能即係政府都要檢討下,係唔係一個法 5 團可以即係有能力去做呢樣嘢,因為如果大維修講緊可能係四十年嘅樓,可能所有 6 業主都係一把年紀同埋可能係退休人士,真係冇能力去做一個--即係處理一個咁大 7 嘅維修嘅工程,咁會會政府有啲即係專業嘅團隊或者有啲人可以協助下佢哋,或者 8 幫下佢哋點樣去處理一個大維修嘅問題。咁提供一個獨立嘅顧問形式,因為我都知 9 道顧問、承辦商原來都係一團伙嘅,我哋作為一個即係完全係冇經驗嘅業主,我哋 10 點樣去即係處理到,可能即係日後睇下可唔可以檢討番成個流程。 11 同埋我想再提出下,係唔係一定要有一個驗樓,即係大維修嘅計劃,可唔可以 12 推出一個叫做「保養計劃」呢?即係等於你架車你定期保養,咁佢可以行得耐啲, 13 係唔係一定要推行一個即係大維修呢?如果你係每一個時段提供一個樓宇嘅保養, 14 或者有啲承辦商係保養咗一段時間,你又要求佢一定要通過到呢個大維修嘅強制驗 15 樓令--解除到個強制驗樓令嘅,係唔係好啲呢?因為呢個係雙贏嘅方案嚟嘅。一, 16 就政府唔使資助咁多;第二,就市民亦都唔使付出咁多,同埋個滋擾係減到最少。 17 提供一個即係長遠啲嘅樓宇保養計劃好過即係做一個--即係譬如啲樓可能四十年, 18 直情即係要求一個大維修,可能開頭做少少嘢,就好過最終即係我哋叫做「剝 19 皮」,成個樓拆咗再維修,又鏟。因為你四十年嘅樓你又唔知佢之前起成點,你一 20 打出嚟,好似我哋咁樣打出嚟,嗰啲窗咪又爛晒,嗰啲鋼筋又爆晒,其實都係比較 21 即係難搞啲嘅,同埋嗰個使費同埋時間相對長咗。 22 我最後都係希望而家呢個即係火災,我希望有啲即係喺其中重要啲嘅持份者可 23 以出嚟幫助下呢個聽證會,去即係將個拼圖可以砌得完整啲,包括政府部門嘅劉嘉 24 敏小姐、黃碧嬌、鄧國權、陳球強,陳德誠,同埋即係黃俠然,同埋呢個侯華健嗰 25 啲,我諗佢應該要出嚟即係解釋下即係成個火災起火嘅原因,幫聽證會整合番成個 26 拼圖,咁有個完整嘅畫面。多謝各位。 27 陸啟康法官:唔該。我諗有關意見方面,我哋相信喺最後陳詞嘅機會,我哋都一定會探討我 28 哋意見嘅。我都希望各位尤其是有律師代表,可以通過律師團隊係將你哋嘅意見用 29 一個即係有系統式嘅方法喺最後陳詞嘅機會,因為好多嘅意見其實都要考慮好多可 30 行性或者,因為好多時即係如果政府一個大啲嘅佢個參與程式去到邊一度,咁都係 31 需要家去研究嘅,係唔係政府話晒事,咁以後居民就聽晒政府講,咁係唔一個解決 32 方法,亦都未必係。所竹我諗我哋喺最後陳詞嘅機會,我哋一定有機會去探討唔同 33 方案嘅可行性同埋對各個嘅影響,亦都係希望--呢個亦都係唔容易嘅一件事,我相 34 信喺最後陳詞嘅機會,相信我哋會希望亦都喺嗰個時候將各方嘅意見已經整理好, 35 或者佢哋嘅各方面佢哋有咩嘢建議,咁就可以整理好,我哋可以喺嗰個時候。當然 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十五天

39 本謄本由Epiq 編製 我哋委員會遲啲會喺呢方面畀多啲指示或者指引畀各個律師團隊係點樣去準備嗰個 1 陳詞呢一方面嘅問題。 2 而家到問題--我想問政府屘二,你嘅居民就最後,我想問其他嘅涉事方有問題 3 想問佢?如果冇,我想請政府代表大律師。 4 孫靖乾資深大律師:江先生。 5 江祥發先生:你好。 6 孫靖乾資深大律師:我只係有三個方面有啲簡短嘅問題係想即係睇你可唔可以去協助下? 7 江祥發先生:好。 8 孫靖乾資深大律師:第一個就係我都留意到你喺你嘅證人供詞有講過你個背景,即你有從事 9 一啲室內設計嘅工作。 10 江祥發先生:係。 11 孫靖乾資深大律師:所以頭先杜大律師問你就係關於發泡膠嗰個作為一個臨時保護措施,咁 12 你都有喺頭先你去答問題嘅時候,就講過話根據你自己嘅經驗,其實亦都有一啲用 13 發泡膠嘅一個咁嘅臨時做法,但係就如果係用嗰個發泡膠一個好長嘅時間嘅時候, 14 咁呢方面你係會有一個顧慮嘅,係咪? 15 江祥發先生:係。 16 孫靖乾資深大律師:我想問下如果喺咁嘅情況,係唔係即係如果可以嘅話,譬如我哋即係分 17 開譬如話個打鑿工程係幾層幾層咁樣去做呢啲咁嘅臨時保護措施,然後做完譬如話 18 就可能係可以將佢拎番出嚟,又或者起碼係即係分開一棟一棟,如果完成咗個工序 19 就將嗰啲嘅發泡膠拆除,即係咁樣會係一個更加理想嘅工序,如果一定要用嘅話? 20 江祥發先生:一定要用,我覺得咁嘅處理方法比較理想。 21 孫靖乾資深大律師:好,唔該晒。第二個問題我想問一問你,就係關於嗰個消防水缸嗰度, 22 頭先你都講過,就話初時嘅時候你記得,就係即係呢個鴻毅亦都好似係有講過就會 23 做一個纖維嘅臨時嘅水缸一個咁嘅做法嘅? 24 江祥發先生:係。 25 孫靖乾資深大律師:然後我哋頭先就杜大律師同你睇過一啲嘅工程會議嘅文件,就有提及到 26 就係話會將嗰個消防水缸就轉用為一個臨時嘅食水缸? 27 江祥發先生:係。 28 孫靖乾資深大律師:我就想問一問你,第一,就係佢哋去講到話將嗰個消防水缸轉用嗰個臨 29 時食水缸嘅時候,你有冇印象有冇即係喺個會裏面討論過話係唔係需要咁樣做,會 30 唔會係可以用番譬如話纖維嘅臨時嘅水缸,即係就唔一定要咁樣去轉嗰個消防水缸 31 做臨時食水缸,有冇一個咁樣嘅討論? 32 江祥發先生:咁樣討論係應該冇嘅,但係就即係我哋每次工程會顧問都喺現場嘅,佢應該係 33 提供嗰啲專業嘅意見畀我哋,佢話「我哋將個消防缸會轉呢個臨時食水缸,同埋做 34 維修。」咁顧問應該提供一啲即係意見畀我哋管委會。 35 孫靖乾資深大律師:係,明白。針對呢度我都想問多個問題,就係當然我哋䣟知道即係喺嗰 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十五天

40 本謄本由Epiq 編製 個法律框架下,即係譬如業主對嗰啲消防設備都有一個責任。你當時記唔記得嗰啲 1 會議裏面有冇問過或者討論過,就係話其實如果佢哋要將嗰個消防水缸臨時轉做一 2 個食水缸嘅時候,即係譬如成個過程係嗰個時間會維持幾耐,針對呢方面有冇問過 3 或者討論過? 4 江祥發先生:應該冇,但係以我哋理解,應該佢咁樣轉缸,應該即係維修--重鋪個缸應該唔 5 係好耐時間,可能兩個禮拜、三個禮拜,即係咁上下,但係你話之後譬如話嗰個缸 6 轉咗臨時食水缸之後,咁嗰個即係消防缸點樣處理,即係鴻毅冇畀過任何即係--提 7 出過任何意見畀我哋。 8 孫靖乾資深大律師:你唔好介意,我淨係想再問埋,即係因為我哋都知道相關嘅嗰個消防設 9 備,即係嗰啲喉轆系統都係關閉咗一段時間,即係聽你咁講,其實你哋當時,譬如 10 無論你自己或者喺嗰個即係管委會裏面,其實知唔知悉嗰個關閉嘅時間?譬如話有 11 啲嘅座數係關閉咗比較長嘅時間,你哋知唔知道定係冇乜留意? 12 江祥發先生:唔知,冇乜留意嘅。 13 孫靖乾資深大律師:冇乜留意,好。最後仲有一個我想問一問你,就係杜大律師都問過徐滿 14 柑嘅,就係關於就係嗰個工程裏面其中有一項係講到嗰個叫做即係有蓋嘅一個行人 15 通道,即係話你喺每一座可能門口出面,就會嗰陣時係諗過用一個金屬去做嘅一個 16 有蓋嘅通道,即係譬如可能去保護啲行人,如果譬如話有啲嘢喺棚架上面跌落嚟等 17 等嘅。我哋都知道但係後來就係用咗一個竹嘅物料去做嗰個嘅行人通道,呢方面你 18 會唔會協助到我哋會知道其實有冇一個討論,點解原本嗰個合同裏面話諗住用金 19 屬,但係後來都係用咗個竹去做嘅呢? 20 江祥發先生:我哋有即係睇番呢個情況,我哋都有問番即係當時顧問,我話「點解唔用番一 21 個金屬棚架?」佢話而家嗰個係一個斜棚,即係咁樣兜住個斜棚,所以就話嗰個風 22 險就相對嚟講係比較即係少啲嘅。咁問題譬如話佢冇做呢樣嘢,其實即係我哋冇發 23 放嗰個錢畀佢,即係意思話冇--即係但係我哋都有問過佢點解唔搭番個金屬棚架。 24 孫靖乾資深大律師:我嘗試了解下,你話佢做一個斜棚,就係我哋其實即係你意思係喺嗰個 25 棚架一上面有陣時我哋啲相都會睇到,佢就會有一個部分就係斜出嚟,係好似一個 26 兜即係伸出嚟,即係你意思就係顧問有講過就係話有一個咁嘅斜棚,即係你喺嗰個 27 棚架嘅比較底部嗰度就伸出嚟斜斜地好似一個兜,咁就即係如果有啲嘢跌落嚟,都 28 會有個斜棚就兜住啲嘢,所以你就未必需要就做到一個金屬嘅行人通道? 29 江祥發先生:顧問解釋係咁。 30 孫靖乾資深大律師:明白,好。 31 唔該,主席同兩位委員,我冇其他問題。 32 陸啟康法官:我想問一問你冇發放啲錢直情,佢整咗嗰樣嘢錢都冇畀? 33 江祥發先生:唔係,佢冇整個金屬棚架,即係我check 番嗰個即係付款紀錄,我哋支付呢 34 個錢,好似係廿幾萬。 35 陸啟康法官:你嘅代表律師,係。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十五天

41 本謄本由Epiq 編製 譚俊傑大律師:係,江生,我有番啲跟進嘅問題嘅。 1 江祥發先生:係。 2 譚俊傑大律師:頭先杜資深大律師都已經同你係睇過O1/48,即係關於你嗰個投訴,我而家 3 講咗個投訴先,呢個投訴就係關於即係你有擔心呢個棚架嘅助燃嘅問題,係咪?我 4 哋見到喺10 月23 號9 點52 分上晝,係唔係見到? 5 江祥發先生:係,見到。 6 譚俊傑大律師:跟住之後你亦都喺十分鐘之後再有一個電郵嘅,就係52 頁,都係關於嗰個 7 中環華懋大廈大火嘅問題,係咪? 8 江祥發先生:係。 9 譚俊傑大律師:跟住51 頁,中間有一啲其他嘅投訴嘅,但係個回應我想問嘅只不過就係-- 10 我哋就咁睇呢個回應就見唔到有關於嗰啲棚架耐燃或者易燃嘅回應。我淨係想問獨 11 立審查組有冇用過其他方法去回覆你嘅投訴喺之前? 12 江祥發先生:冇,電郵。 13 譚俊傑大律師:只係得電郵,係咪? 14 江祥發先生:係電郵。 15 譚俊傑大律師:跟住之後下一樣嘢,我係想問你關於一啲工人食煙嘅問題。想畀證人睇佢嘅 16 第二份證人陳述書WS1/2017,第27 段,係,我唔會逐個逐個同你講嘅,但係 17 Jason Kong 就係你閣下,係咪? 18 江祥發先生:係。 19 譚俊傑大律師:你係有做過一啲建議嘅,例如你有建議過係成立一個吸煙區,係咪? 20 江祥發先生:係。 21 譚俊傑大律師:到最後有冇成立到? 22 江祥發先生:有。 23 譚俊傑大律師:有成立到嘅。跟住之後,我就再想你睇一睇2021 頁第31 段,嗰度你都係 24 有一啲關於食煙嘅投訴,係咪? 25 江祥發先生:係。 26 譚俊傑大律師:跟住之後我就會跳,我唔會每一個都睇嘅,但係我見你都有好多關於食煙嘅 27 投訴。我下一個想你睇睇就係2041 頁,因為嗰度就係關於新嘅管委會之後發生嘅 28 事。跟住就係2041 頁第58 段,我就想話畀你聽呢段時間就係新管委會嘅時間。 29 江祥發先生:係。 30 譚俊傑大律師:但係我想你睇嘅其實係喺2045 頁第7,2024 年12 月17 嗰度,你就話 31 「斷正」,咁根據嗰個--你嗰張相應該係關於工人吸煙嘅,因為我哋其實喺嗰個 32 footnote 都會見到。 33 江祥發先生:係。 34 譚俊傑大律師:Footnote 2,就係關於工人吸煙嘅相片,係咪?跟住之後你喺2045,如 35 果我哋見到2024 年12 月18 號1 點12 分28 秒嗰度,你有提過一個關於改善方 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十五天

42 本謄本由Epiq 編製 案,係咪? 1 江祥發先生:係。 2 譚俊傑大律師:其實係唔係就係你頭先剛剛答嘅時候,答杜資深大律師嘅時候都有講過,話 3 其實你都有叫過即係睇下可唔可以同宏業講有冇一啲可以改善嘅方案? 4 江祥發先生:係。 5 譚俊傑大律師:到最後有冇一啲改善方案出咗嚟? 6 江祥發先生:都係好行貨咁樣,話提高--即係譬如教育下啲即係工人,叫佢唔好喺棚架食 7 煙,朝頭早有個早會作為溫馨提示,同埋即係叫佢哋食煙就落番去吸煙區嗰度食。 8 譚俊傑大律師:其實大約喺2046,喺同一段嘅對話,2046 宏業都係咁答「而家我哋基本上 9 都冇警告工人,有發現違規已經即刻趕離場。另外又吩咐咗安全主任喺工人落淜時 10 加緊訓導工人及看守。」咁你又再答「已經搭咗三期,啲工人都仍然冇遵守安全守 11 則,都要諗下有冇嘢有效嘅方法。」係咪? 12 江祥發先生:係。 13 譚俊傑大律師:好,下一個話題係黃碧嬌,喺你嘅補充證人陳述書入面,都2063 頁有睇過 14 黃碧嬌,係咪? 15 江祥發先生:係。 16 譚俊傑大律師:講咗嘅唔會再重複,但係就住79 段,呢一個擺街站呢一度,你可唔可以講 17 下究竟發生啲咩嘢事? 18 江祥發先生:因為7 月嗰陣時即係佢哋收到啲街坊業主希望即係開個緊急業主大會,咁議程 19 就畀咗佢哋,黃碧嬌就喺嗰個即係我哋對開差唔多係每日啲街坊去搭巴士個主要通 20 道就擺咗個街站,就收集即係業主啲資料或者係收集佢哋嘅授權票。佢即係點樣吸 21 引啲街坊,佢就話「因為我哋幫你申請嗰個政府市建局2.0 嘅資助,同埋申請自置 22 居所即係維修嗰個項目,譬如話你畀幾萬鈫就得㗎嘞,即係變咗係佢。」即係啲居 23 民聽到話即係可以減少錢,就即係有啲人就已經簽授權票畀佢,但係佢冇講清楚箇 24 中可能需要一啲審查嘅,就包括年齡同埋即係呢個資產審查,就唔係一定即係可以 25 申請到嘅,佢就淨係講咗啲利益,就冇講到即係背後嘅要有嗰個需求。 26 譚俊傑大律師:你見到佢擺街站,除咗黃碧嬌之外,仲有啲咩嘢人喺度? 27 江祥發先生:仲有副主席陳德誠,佢哋兩個一齊,仲有咁上下梅少峰得有幫手接力嘅。因為 28 點解我咁清楚,因為我每日都對於嗰個街站,我哋屋企望出去就望到嗰個街站即係 29 擺咗喺度。 30 譚俊傑大律師:好,下一個就係陳球強,陳球強你喺第82 同埋83 段都有提過下陳球強嘅, 31 頭先講過嗰啲就唔好重複。但係82、83 嗰一日嘅選舉你可唔可以好簡單咁樣講一 32 講畀大家聽?2024 年5 月25 號。 33 江祥發先生:當天選舉咁就選出咗一班委員,就當時有人動議就搵鄧國權去做主席,因為嗰 34 度牽涉大維修,咁即係覺得我自己都唔係好知道個情況點樣,所以我冇參加主席嗰 35 個選舉,我就參加咗呢個副主席嗰個選舉。我第一個就舉手話我想參選嗰個副主 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十五天

43 本謄本由Epiq 編製 席,就我舉手之後冇幾耐,就陳德誠亦都舉手,就有兩位即係候選人。陳球強嘅編 1 排“1"號就係陳德誠,“2"號就係我,我開頭都冇乜特別為意係咁嘅情況。選咗 2 票之後,跟住就去投票,咁有人監票,個監票嗰個就係我同樓嘅街坊,咁佢事後同 3 我講,就話「咦,黥解咁得意嘅嗰啲即係選票?」因為有啲選票係全部係填晒1 4 嘅,即係填晒“1"號,包括即係選嗰個主席,選嗰個副主席,選個司庫同埋呢個秘 5 書,都係一早即係劃晒“ 1"嘅,所以而家所我理解到點解佢即係要我係做“2" 6 號,可能佢一早就已經係填好一啲選票就去投。咁呢個情況我都有打電話--我隔咗 7 一兩日打電話畀民政處即係投訴呢個問題,柯(譯音)小姐話「係呀,我哋即係當 8 時都冇特別留意」,咁佢話「下次我哋如果咁木樣,我哋係用或者抽籤或者咩嘢形 9 式去表達。」但係最終卒之都冇特別處理。 10 譚俊傑大律師:好,最後一個問題,呢個就唔係你當時發現嘅,2015 頁,佢嘅第二份證人 11 陳述書,第21 段,你就呢個應該係近排睇到,你發覺沈炬忠先生其實喺2022 年 12 7 月已經離世,但係你就睇文件見到2022 年9 月28 號唔知點解佢就可以簽到一 13 份--即係佢逝世咗之後,喺幾個月之後係簽到一份訂明修葺工程費用估算報告,係 14 咪? 15 江祥發先生:係。 16 譚俊傑大律師:你就有懷疑係唔係有人冒簽咁樣? 17 江祥發先生:係。 18 譚俊傑大律師:好,我哋就好快咁樣睇睇啲文件,係O2/831 首先。831,唔該。係,右下 19 角,係,唔該。見到沈先生應該係2022 年7 月15 號離世。跟住想你睇睇E1- 20 4/8579,係,就見到沈先生嘅一個簽名。 21 江祥發先生:係。 22 譚俊傑大律師:然之後個日期比較難睇,但係係2022 年9 月28 號嚟嘅。 23 江祥發先生:係。 24 譚俊傑大律師:主席,兩位委員,我冇其他問題。 25 陸啟康法官:有冇覆問? 26 杜淦堃資深大律師:主席,有覆問。 27 江生,我想你睇番你補充證人陳述書79 段,2063 頁,你頭先講黃碧嬌擺站嗰 28 度,我都想睇下你有冇多啲資料幫到我哋。 29 江祥發先生:好。 30 杜淦堃資深大律師:根據佢畀我哋嘅回覆,黃碧嬌係話佢自己收咗二十多張授權票,你知唔 31 知道其實佢--即係當然你掌握一啲嘅訊息,你知唔知道佢收咗幾多張?佢呢個講法 32 你知道...(聽不清) 33 江祥發先生:我有保留,但係你話幾多張我唔敢肯定,因為佢嘅做法係洗樓嘅,即係佢帶啲 34 義工上去係即係拍門洗樓,因為你都睇到有啲街坊都有投訴話佢拍我門,即係可能 35 叫佢媽媽簽。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十五天

44 本謄本由Epiq 編製 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係佢呢個洗樓有幾成功,佢攞到幾多張你有冇嘢可以講到畀我哋聽 1 呢?即係我明白你有保留,我哋講唔到嘅如果係咁。 2 江祥發先生:係,因為冇一個實質嘅證據。 3 杜淦堃資深大律師:亦都我想知道你佢有啲點同街坊去講,幫佢哋做啲乜嘢,我如果冇理解 4 錯,你頭先嘅講法,就係話佢就同啲街坊講有資助,但係我想你講清楚,佢冇講嗰 5 樣嘢係需要審查,係咪? 6 江祥發先生:係。 7 杜淦堃資深大律師:你有冇其他資料可以講到佢同街坊講嘅嘢,你有冇覺得有其他方面嘅問 8 題,你可以講畀委員會聽? 9 江祥發先生:因為佢就係話即係--因為我哋嗰個大維修嘅費用可能係講緊十六至十八萬,而 10 家佢講畀街坊就話--即係佢計埋條數畀街坊睇,譬如你申請咗樓宇維修係8 萬鈫, 11 咁再加埋呢個即係市建局嘅資助係5 萬鈫,變咗$13 萬,所以佢同佢講「你畀幾萬 12 鈫就可以做咗呢個大維修,你如果簽到畀--即係簽授權票畀我,我就叫舊法團嗰度 13 就幫你即係去做」咁樣。 14 杜淦堃資深大律師:首先佢講呢個資助嗰啲金額據你認知係唔係準確? 15 江祥發先生:準確。但係嗰個8 萬鈫就可能需要一個資產審查。 16 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係唔係個個都會攞到? 17 江祥發先生:係。 18 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係你--我諗如果我聽你咁講,你唔同意佢嘅做法就係幫佢哋去--幫啲 19 街坊去攞嗰個資助,喺同一個場合叫佢哋授權畀佢自己,似乎呢個係你對於佢嗰個 20 不滿,可唔可以咁講? 21 江祥發先生:可以。 22 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋冇其他問題問江先生,麻煩晒你。 23 江祥發先生:唔該晒你。 24 陸啟康法官:唔該晒江生,你可以作供完畢,唔該。 25

26 13 時03 分宏福苑業主立案法團第十二屆管理委員會(任期由2024 年5 月25 日至2024 年9 27 月6 日及2024 年9 月6 日至2026 年1 月6 日)委員證人江祥發先生作供完畢 28

29 杜淦堃資深大律師:主席,我哋都想報告一下嗰個進度嘅情況。我哋今個星期係安排咗另外 30 一啲嘅證人,例如聽日會有勞工處,之後仲會有消防處嘅一啲其他證人出庭作供。 31 我哋亦都陸陸續續其實過去嗰兩個星期收到證人供詞同一啲新嘅文件,所以今個星 32 期有啲證人我哋基於新嘅文件嘅關係,我哋將佢會係移到去5 月初嘅。所以變咗好 33 似今日咁樣,原先有啲安排咗嘅證人可能會往後褪,而今日晏晝我哋就冇安排其他 34 證人,所以都想同主席交代一下,呢一個星期係可能有啲咁嘅情況出現,同埋嗰個 35 原因。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十五天

45 本謄本由Epiq 編製 陸啟康法官:通常喺咁調查都會少不免出現呢啲咁嘅情況。 1 杜淦堃資深大律師:冇錯,係。 2 陸啟康法官:所以喺咁嘅情況之下,我哋今日就會提早結束,聽日就會係10 點鐘。咁但係 3 會唔會可能將啲證人擺多啲--即係安排多一日,然後跟住即係有一日可以唔使聽? 4 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋嘗試過,呢個星期但係似乎就做唔到,因為每一位證人我哋預嗰個 5 時間同實質問可能有出入,而有啲日子可能有啲證人亦都未必可以方便,所以可能 6 都要麻煩咁多位,可能我哋每一日都要嚟,但未必要用足全日。 7 陸啟康法官:好,多謝你呢個資訊,因為我諗除咗我哋,我諗好多人都想知道即係嗰個進度 8 係點樣樣。 9 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白,係。 10 陸啟康法官:我哋會押後到明天10 點鐘繼續。 11

12 13 時05 分聆訊押後 13 (聆訊將於2026 年4 月21 日10 時00 分繼續) 14

FD06255 | 2025_港澳台_香港宏福苑大火_Transcript-(Chinese)_20260421.pdf

分类:06_境外及港澳台调查报告 | 年份:2025 | 地域:香港 | 严重程度: | 场所: | 起火原因: | 来源格式:pdf

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十六天

本謄本由Epiq 編製

就大埔宏福苑火災成立的獨立委員會

聽證會

高等法院原訟法庭陸啟康法官 陳健波議員 歐陽伯權博士

日期:

第十六天 2026 年4 月21 日

杜淦堃資深大律師、俞匡庭大律師、李澍桓大律師及馮天榮大律師代表獨 立委員會

孫靖乾資深大律師、陸栩然大律師、卓元暢大律師及劉逸冲大律師代表政 府

劉晉安大律師代表宏褔苑居民

律政司代表

競爭事務委員會代表

呂世杰資深大律師及阮文躍大律師代表市區重建局

合安管理有限公司代表

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十六天

1 本謄本由Epiq 編製

以下內容乃聆訊數碼錄音謄本 1

2 10 時00 分聆訊恢復 3

4 10 時01 分時任勞工處分區職業安全主任(行動科)(小型裝修及維修工程第二分處)證人 5 林秀青女士開始作供 6

7 陸啟康法官:係,李大律師。 8 李澍桓大律師:係,早晨,主席。今日三位嘅證人都係嚟自勞工處嘅,我哋第一位會傳召嘅 9 證人係林秀青女士。係,林女士,或者請你先讀出嗰個聲明吖。 10 林秀青女士:本人林秀青聲明,本人所作的證供,盡本人所知、所悉及所信,均屬真實。 11 李澍桓大律師:係,唔該,請坐。係,林女士,我哋知道你就喺--都加入咗勞工處有接近二 12 十七年或者超過二十七年,係咪? 13 林秀青女士:係。 14 李澍桓大律師:喺宏福苑大火或者2024 年嗰段時間呢,我知道你個崗位就係--係咪應該係 15 叫做「分區職安主任」? 16 林秀青女士:係,分區職業安全主任。 17 李澍桓大律師:然之後大概喺2025 年12 月嘅時候,就應該到而家都係調任咗去法規部嗰 18 邊,係咪呀? 19 林秀青女士:係,法律事務科。 20 李澍桓大律師:法律事務科。所以其實喺2024 年或者一路去到宏福苑大火之前,以我理解 21 其實你都有參與過關於宏福苑嘅一啲投訴嘅處理嘅,係咪? 22 林秀青女士:係。 23 李澍桓大律師:所以喺跟住落嚟嘅時間呢,我想同你了解下有關於唔同人喺就住宏福苑呢個 24 維修工程入面所作嘅一啲投訴,同埋勞工處嗰個參與,同埋個處理嘅情況。就住今 25 次委員會嘅調查,我知道你向委員會提供咗兩份書面嘅證人陳述書,係咪? 26 林秀青女士:正確。 27 李澍桓大律師:我亦都相信入面嘅內容同埋你提供嘅文件都係以你所知、所信,係真實嘅情 28 況之下而講嘅,係咪? 29 林秀青女士:係。 30 李澍桓大律師:我想第一樣嘢,就係講番喺一般嚟講,我知道勞工處有陣時都會做一啲--去 31 到一啲工地度做巡查嘅,係咪? 32 林秀青女士:係。 33 李澍桓大律師:而首先宏福苑,講番宏福苑呢個情況,雖然佢係一個已經住緊嘅一個屋苑, 34

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十六天

2 本謄本由Epiq 編製 但係由於因為佢做嗰啲維修嘅工程係屬於所謂有關條例入面嘅一啲叫做建造嘅工 1 程。 2 林秀青女士:係。 3 李澍桓大律師:所以亦都基於咁嘅情況,係會有部分係牽涉到勞工處嘅監管,我咁講啱唔 4 啱? 5 林秀青女士:啱。 6 李澍桓大律師:而喺個機制入面,應該就係承建商要展開做呢個宏福苑工程嘅時候呢,佢係 7 咪應該根本法例就七天之內要通知勞工處,佢哋開工嘞? 8 林秀青女士:正確。 9 李澍桓大律師:而喺佢哋開展咗工程之後,勞工處就會喺因應唔同嘅情況就會進行一啲巡查 10 嘅,係咪? 11 林秀青女士:係。 12 李澍桓大律師:我哋知道喺宏福苑嘅個案入面,勞工處總共進行咗係咪應該十六次嘅巡查, 13 而有一次--定還是係額外再多一次就係叫做加強突擊檢查,係咪呀? 14 林秀青女士:係。 15 李澍桓大律師:所以其實應該總共十六次定十七次呀? 16 林秀青女士:應該係十七次。 17 李澍桓大律師:十七次,一般嚟講我個理解呢啲咁樣嘅巡查其實係有所謂唔同嘅稱呼嘅,有 18 啲就叫做(English Spoken)。初級... 19 林秀青女士:初次。 20 李澍桓大律師:或者初次嘅巡查。 21 林秀青女士:初次巡查。 22 李澍桓大律師:呢個就應該係喺個維修工程開始咗之後,即係你哋收到通知之後做嘅第一次 23 巡查,係咪? 24 林秀青女士:係。 25 李澍桓大律師:有啲我知道你哋就叫做(English Spoken),可唔可以理解中文就即係 26 一般巡查? 27 林秀青女士:可以。 28 李澍桓大律師:呢啲一般巡查通常會乜嘢情況之下做呢? 29 林秀青女士:通常就因應我哋嘅機制,咁就係視乎嗰個地盤嘅大細同埋佢嗰個性質嘅,而好 30 似呢啲大型維修裝修工程嘅時候,根據機制係每一至兩個月做一次巡查嘅? 31 李澍桓大律師:係,呢個就係一般巡查? 32 林秀青女士:一般巡查。 33 李澍桓大律師:有冇話喺呢啲巡查入面其實你哋個目的係想睇啲乜㗎? 34 林秀青女士:勞工處去呢度巡查嘅目的係執行職安健法例,確保僱員安全。 35 李澍桓大律師:係。另外一種我知道就叫做(English Spoken),呢啲係咪都係巡查嘅 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十六天

3 本謄本由Epiq 編製 一種嚟㗎? 1 林秀青女士:都係巡查嘅一種,但係呢個係一啲比較大型啲,針對性某一啲項目嘅。 2 李澍桓大律師:係,有冇話一啲例子,即係邊一啲某一啲項目係? 3 林秀青女士:係,譬如我哋喺2025 年2 月進行過一次嘅特別執法行動,就係特別針對喺一 4 啲維修裝修嘅地盤裏面有一啲高空工作,又或者係有啲吊棚嘅工程,有啲電力嘅工 5 程,同埋有啲可能係吊運嘅工程咁樣嘅。咁呢啲比較高危啲嘅項目呢,我哋係會特 6 別針對。 7 李澍桓大律師:呢個就唔係話針對純粹宏福苑㗎嘞,即係整體港九做緊嘅一啲大型嘅工程? 8 林秀青女士:係,一般嚟講呢,就勞工處喺不定時就會有兩至三個星期嘅呢啲大型嘅執法行 9 動嘅,視乎當時嗰個主題係啲乜嘢呢,有陣時就係會係呢啲裝修維修嘅工程,有陣 10 時會係一啲大型嘅建築地盤咁樣嘅。 11 李澍桓大律師:我哋亦都睇到有一種你解釋過就叫做“(English Spoken)”,咁我相 12 信呢個就好明顯喇,就應該係收到如果有人投訴某一個工地嘅時候,你哋就會去做 13 呢啲跟進嘅巡查嘞? 14 林秀青女士:係,正確。 15 李澍桓大律師:我哋知道亦都啲可能係你哋出咗一啲所謂叫做(English Spoken)改善 16 通知書或者函件,之後你哋就會有啲跟進嘅巡查,睇下佢哋有冇跟番你哋嘅建議或 17 者去改善一啲情況,係咪? 18 林秀青女士:係。 19 李澍桓大律師:喺宏福苑嘅呢個情況入面,我可唔可以理解,其實除咗初次巡查,即係佢開 20 工之後嘅第一次巡查之後,其實嗰十幾次嘅巡查係咪都係主要同因為投訴有關而做 21 嘅一啲巡查嚟㗎? 22 林秀青女士:都唔係完全同投訴有關嘅。 23 李澍桓大律師:係。 24 林秀青女士:即係當然喇,喺不定時我哋都會接獲一啲投訴喇,而其實根據機制,我哋都會 25 係每一至兩個月做一次巡查嘅。 26 李澍桓大律師:係。 27 林秀青女士:但係因應收到投訴嘅次數比較多,我哋亦都已經將嗰個巡查嘅次數係加密咗, 28 咁由平時一至兩個月,喺宏福苑係差不多每一個月我哋都做一次巡查。 29 李澍桓大律師:至少我知道都唔係淨係針對宏福苑,你喺你嘅證人口供入面都有講過,其實 30 所嘅呢啲巡查,你哋都係採取一個叫做「突擊巡查」,英文你哋用嘅講法就係 31 (English Spoken) 32 林秀青女士:係,正確。 33 李澍桓大律師:我想知道係咪個意思就係,首先第一,你唔會有事前嘅通知嗰個地盤或者工 34 地,你哋勞工處係會派人落去做巡查,係咪咁嘅意思? 35 林秀青女士:係,我哋唔會事先通知嘅,因為我哋去做巡查嘅目的係要執法,咁所以我哋係 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十六天

4 本謄本由Epiq 編製 好清楚知道我哋係唔會,亦都唔應該通知承建商我哋係將會進行一個巡查嘅行動 1 嘅? 2 李澍桓大律師:但係我相信就視乎個實際情況喇,即係就算你哋事前唔落去,即係唔會預先 3 通知,但係我諗亦都睇個實際嘅情況,因為我相信如果你譬如去一個新建緊樓嘅地 4 盤,你就冇可能自己就咁行入去喇,可能你就算去到個現場嘅時候,你都要通知所 5 謂管工或者一啲承建商,你先至可以入到個地盤入面,係咪? 6 林秀青女士:係,對於一啲新建嘅,即係一啲大型嘅上蓋工程,咁可能佢喺門口已經有個 7 閘,咁可能就要先通知我哋先至可以入到。但係宏福苑就唔同嘅,佢唔同一般呢啲 8 上蓋嘅地盤。佢入去係唔需要事先通知嘅,而我哋入到去亦都唔會通知承建商,我 9 哋亦都暫時唔會戴安全帽,就唔會引起工人或者承建商嘅注意,我哋會喺下面做一 10 個視察先嘅。 11 李澍桓大律師:係。 12 林秀青女士:即係行一轉,睇下有冇一啲違例嘅事項呀,同埋如果係因應去投訴嘅時候呢, 13 就睇番嗰個投訴嘅位置,同埋即係其他相關嘅地方會唔會有投訴嘅事項發生咗,咁 14 我哋會自己睇咗一輪先,睇完之後我哋即係覺得有需要嘞,我哋先至會搵承建商同 15 我哋一齊去行。 16 李澍桓大律師:我想問,因為我個認知係咪應該勞工處就唔係一個制服嘅即係部門,所以你 17 哋落去都係便衣咁樣落去? 18 林秀青女士:係,便衣嘅。 19 李澍桓大律師:會唔會都可能我哋有陣時見到,即係有好多部門都會有自己一啲反光衣,或 20 者一啲背心咁印住個部門,你哋係連呢件衫都唔會着吖,定還是都會着住嗰個? 21 林秀青女士:唔會着住嘅。 22 李澍桓大律師:即係就咁普通一般嘅便服? 23 林秀青女士:一般裝束,係嘞。 24 李澍桓大律師:跟住我知道做完巡查,當然就有陣時要做番一啲記錄喇。所以我想喺度先了 25 解一下你哋做一啲記錄嗰個情況嘅,如果我哋睇D1 嗰個文件冊,第一張我想你睇 26 947 頁,我哋見到呢個就係因應宏福苑做去做過嘅一次巡查嘅一個記錄,係咪? 27 林秀青女士:係。 28 李澍桓大律師:咁我相信喺頂嗰度,我哋見到就係M1 ,我個理解應該係一個縮寫就係 29 (English Spoken)嘅第1 號,即係第一張,係咪? 30 林秀青女士:係。 31 李澍桓大律師:我哋然之後喺上面,我哋就已經見到有個抬頭“DSO(MRM)2”,我相信呢 32 個就係林小姐你--林女士你當時嗰個職位,係咪呀? 33 林秀青女士:係。 34 李澍桓大律師:所以呢張記錄其實就係做番出嚟向你匯報番個巡查嘅情況㗎,可唔可以咁理 35 解? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十六天

5 本謄本由Epiq 編製 林秀青女士:正確。 1 李澍桓大律師:我哋就見到7 月22 號嘅時候,就做咗一個似乎根據第一句所講,就係同一 2 個投訴有關嘅一個巡查嘞,係咪呀? 3 林秀青女士:係。 4 李澍桓大律師:咁如果我哋暫時睇落去第3 段呢,同樣地我哋就見到即係有一啲觀察就記錄 5 低喇,喺呢度就講話「喺巡查嘅時候,咁我哋就見到--即係觀察嘅同事就見到有似 6 乎九個工人喺度做緊啲棚架嘅工作,喺G 座嗰度」,係咪? 7 林秀青女士:係。 8 李澍桓大律師:跟住我哋就有見到就話“ (English Spoken )侯華健(English 9 Spoken)”,跟住另外仲有一干人等,包括(English Spoken)。我想問呢 10 個係咪就係有陣時有啲情況你哋觀察完之後,其實都會聯絡番地盤嘅負責人? 11 林秀青女士:係,正確。 12 李澍桓大律師:有陣時就有需要嘅時候可能要了解多啲情況喇,有需要嘅時候,可能要畀一 13 啲--在場就要畀一啲職安健嘅建議佢哋嘅,係咪? 14 林秀青女士:係,因為其實我哋一路行嘅時候呢,我哋都會同佢講番我哋巡查嘅地方有啲乜 15 嘢需要改善嘅,咁可以即時同佢講番喇。 16 李澍桓大律師:跟住我想你睇第九百--首先,947 頁我哋睇到下面就有五個--第4 段嗰度 17 有講喇,就主要係有五個投訴喇,譬如舉個例,第一個一個匿名嘅投訴就有講到關 18 於一啲吊運安全性質嘅一啲投訴喇,你睇到第一個方格嗰度。 19 林秀青女士:係。 20 李澍桓大律師:跟住後面我哋如果跳去948 頁有啲叫做(English Spoken),我相信呢 21 個就係同事喺948 頁頂嗰度,即係都仲係處理緊講緊第一個投訴,就似乎啲同事就 22 會就住佢觀察到嘅嘢做一啲記錄,然之後達致一啲裁決咁樣嘞,係咪呀? 23 林秀青女士:係,或者佢係報告番畀我聽佢當時嘅發現。 24 李澍桓大律師:係,跟住我哋再“(English Spoken)”下面跳落去呢,我哋就見到有 25 Justification,跟住就隔離寫咗句“(English Spoken)”,似乎我理解 26 就係有一啲觀察,亦都做咗一啲判斷之後,似乎同事就會喺呢個巡查記錄入面都會 27 講佢覺得嗰個投訴係咪能夠成立嘅? 28 林秀青女士:係,正確。 29 李澍桓大律師:係咪呀?首先,當然個同事會做咁樣嘅即係一個初步嘅判斷,係咪投訴成立 30 喇。我可唔可以理解林女士你當然--你應該就係佢哋嘅上司嚟㗎嘛,係咪? 31 林秀青女士:係。 32 李澍桓大律師:咁你都有權話考慮過某一啲可能你得到嘅資料,你其實都可以推翻佢哋嘅-- 33 一啲佢哋嘅睇法或者建議嘅,係咪? 34 林秀青女士:可以。 35 李澍桓大律師:即係如果譬如你覆核佢過個案,然之後覺得其實唔係喎,投訴都成立㗎喎, 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十六天

6 本謄本由Epiq 編製 咁你其實就可能會給予指示做一啲進一步嘅跟進嘞? 1 林秀青女士:其實正確嚟講就唔係推翻佢哋嘅建議,因為通常佢哋話「投訴不能成立」,只 2 係話佢哋喺巡查嘅時候就見唔到有同投訴相關嘅證據可以攞到,當時我會睇番佢哋 3 嗰個報告,即係如果我覺得有再需要去跟進嘅時候,我就會叫同事去再跟進番個事 4 項。 5 李澍桓大律師:喺呢度我想問一問你,呢一句“(English Spoken)”嘅呢一句英文片 6 語,我想問係咪喺勞工處入面或者至少喺你哋職安健嗰個部門入面,係咪都係一個 7 常用或者一個有系統性地使用嘅一句英文嚟呀? 8 林秀青女士:係,都常用嘅。 9 李澍桓大律師:因為如果你再睇第二、第三或者其他嘅個案,基本上都係即係一係就講 10 “(English Spoken)”,或者就咁樣就話“(English Spoken)”。 11 林秀青女士:係。 12 李澍桓大律師:如果我哋睇番948 頁第一個個案,跟住我哋見到下一格就有個follow up 13 action ,就跟住寫住“ (English Spoken )” ,我相信就係“ (English 14 Spoken)”嘅意思,係咪? 15 林秀青女士:係。 16 李澍桓大律師:即係簡寫,即係冇需要做進一步嘅行動。 17 林秀青女士:係,即係雖然係就住呢個投訴,我哋有呢個建議係即係投訴事項不成立同埋有 18 “(English Spoken)”,但係其實我哋亦都喺唔同--即係及後嘅巡查裏面都 19 會繼續跟進呢啲事項,因為其實呢啲都係一啲職安健好大範圍嘅事項,即係譬如係 20 高空工作、吊運呢啲,就唔係話單純係一次我哋就話(English Spoken),我 21 哋之後就唔去再睇,唔去再跟進,我哋一直都有跟進番嘅。 22 李澍桓大律師:呢個我哋都明白嘅。 23 林秀青女士:係。 24 李澍桓大律師:因為正如剛才所講,總共其實做咗十七次嘅巡查㗎嘛,係咪? 25 林秀青女士:係,係。 26 李澍桓大律師:我想好快咁跳落去第950 頁,呢個其實應該係第五號,即係第五個投訴個案 27 嘅其中一部分嚟嘅。 28 林秀青女士:係。 29 李澍桓大律師:我哋見到如果講嗰個-- 喺個表格入面呢,你見到有個“ (English 30 Spoken)”,即係嗰個投訴嘅內容就係話投訴關於有工人喺工作期間吸煙,罔顧 31 《消防條例》嘅。 32 林秀青女士:係。 33 李澍桓大律師:然之後同樣地有一啲(English Spoken),咁喺呢度呢,就基本上就話 34 冇工人即係被發現喺巡查嘅期間喺個現場度吸煙,搵唔到--喺被投訴有關嘅地方就 35 睇唔到有煙頭喇,冇易燃物搵到喇,冇易燃嘅物質或者材料喇,亦都認為已經有足 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十六天

7 本謄本由Epiq 編製 夠嘅滅火器提供咗嘞。 1 林秀青女士:唔。 2 李澍桓大律師:所以似乎你同事嘅講法同樣地就住呢一個吸煙嘅投訴,嗰個(English 3 Spoken)佢嘅判斷就係同樣地都係“(English Spoken)”嘅。 4 林秀青女士:係。 5 李澍桓大律師:亦都同樣地,佢建議就係話冇需要做進一步嘅行動嘞,係咪? 6 林秀青女士:係。 7 李澍桓大律師:我一陣間先再返轉頭同你討論“(English Spoken)”呢一個詞語,但 8 係我想你同樣地都幫一幫我哋再睇埋另一個都係相類似嘅記錄,就喺1129 頁,同 9 一個文件冊,我哋同樣地都見到呢個似乎係睇六個嘅巡查記錄,因為我哋見到M- 10 6。就喺上面同樣地似乎抬頭人就係一個巡查記錄畀番林女士你喇? 11 林秀青女士:係。 12 李澍桓大律師:我哋知道今次呢一個喺2024 年10 月21 號嘅呢個巡查,其實林女士你係 13 有同你嘅同事一齊喺現場,係咪? 14 林秀青女士:係。 15 李澍桓大律師:似乎你喺呢段時間落去到呢,佢哋就應該係--根據第2 段嘅一個描述,應該 16 就當期時地盤都起碼有成六十個工人就喺棚架上面做緊一啲我哋知道叫做打鑿嘅一 17 啲工程,係咪呀? 18 林秀青女士:係,係。 19 李澍桓大律師:即係拆除啲瓦仔。 20 林秀青女士:唔。 21 李澍桓大律師:你呢度都有講,開頭巡查呢,其實就只係你哋自己勞工處嘅職員同事去做巡 22 查,咁就應該係到之後就先至有一位譚生,即係嗰個(English Spoken)同埋 23 一位黃生(譯音)就陪同你哋去做其他嘅巡查,係咪呀? 24 林秀青女士:係,黃生係安全主任嚟嘅。 25 李澍桓大律師:安全主任。 26 林秀青女士:係嘞。 27 李澍桓大律師:我想問呢一個安全主任就唔係你哋勞工處,即係駐地盤法例要求佢哋要有嘅 28 嗰個安全主任,係咪呀? 29 林秀青女士:係,正確。 30 李澍桓大律師:安全主任係咪都要--需唔需喺勞工處度做登記或者考取一啲資格㗎? 31 林秀青女士:佢需要係有一個註冊做安全主任嘅,咁佢係需要透過一啲考試攞到呢個資格, 32 同埋佢有一個即係相關嘅經驗,佢亦都要有個(English Spoken),即係佢僱 33 主去畀佢(English Spoken)咗佢做呢個地盤嘅註冊安全主任。 34 李澍桓大律師:係,呢個監管,即係或者呢個考試、攞牌嘅制度係由勞工處去管轄嘅,係咪 35 呀? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十六天

8 本謄本由Epiq 編製 林秀青女士:係。 1 李澍桓大律師:喺呢個委員會入面我哋聽證期間都有聽到,似乎有啲工人就話直情佢哋冇上 2 過一啲安全課,又或者上過安全課只係得兩三分鐘咁樣嘅,以勞工處嘅角度,呢一 3 個係咪一個可以接受嘅情況嚟? 4 林秀青女士:呢個唔可以接受,因為其實我哋睇番如果係承建商佢聘請嘅安全主任,其實佢 5 要幫大判手,係喺個地盤嗰度履行個承建商要有嘅安全責任嘅,咁安全主任應該係 6 透過一啲安全培訓,一啲(English Spoken),一啲--係,即係平時日常嘅訓 7 練咁樣,去將一啲地盤要注意嘅安全信息係帶畀佢自己嘅工人同埋一啲分判商嘅工 8 人嘅。 9 李澍桓大律師:係咪每一個工人去呢啲工地開工之前,其實簡單啲嚟講,都有要求佢哋要上 10 呢啲安全課? 11 林秀青女士:係,佢亦都有--應該要有一個入職訓練嘅。 12 李澍桓大律師:係。咁我哋見到今次呢一個巡查就林女士你都有份,然之後我哋如果去 13 1131 頁,咁就我哋喺近底部嗰度,我哋就見到就住關於工人吸煙嘅問題,咁有一 14 啲紀錄喺度,係咪? 15 林秀青女士:係。 16 李澍桓大律師:咁簡單啲嚟講,同樣地都係話喺有關嘅地點,就見唔到有工人食煙,係咪? 17 林秀青女士:係。 18 李澍桓大律師:不過就似乎今次同上一次我哋睇嗰個紀錄有少少唔同,就喺某一啲公用嘅地 19 方,即係屋苑入面嘅公共範圍就見到有啲煙頭,有幾個煙頭,不過就唔知究竟啲煙 20 頭係工人定係可能係居民嘅,係咪? 21 林秀青女士:係。 22 李澍桓大律師:咁可唔可以簡單啲嚟講,所以就係如果我哋去1132 頁,咁我哋都係簡單啲 23 嚟講,就係就住吸煙嘅呢個投訴,似乎都係連同其他投訴都係即係(English 24 Spoken),就即係未能確立,係咪? 25 林秀青女士:係,未能確立嘅。 26 李澍桓大律師:係。我想了解多少少呢句說話,即係當然,我明白尤其是如果諗住做個巡 27 查,然之後搜證去做--將來甚至乎有機會刑事檢控,當然即係要有真憑實據係好緊 28 要嘅。但係我想問,即係似乎其實每一次--而家暫時我哋見到呢兩個例子,就住吸 29 煙嘅投訴,其實就係落到去見唔到,即係你哋嘅同事或者你有份參與嗰次,就由於 30 冇親眼見到有人食煙,所以其實嚴格上嚟講,可唔可以咁講就未必話有人食煙呢樣 31 嘢,係冇發生嘅,即係你同唔同意呢個講法先? 32 林秀青女士:我同意嘅。 33 李澍桓大律師:只不過就係你哋落到去嘅時候,就未能夠成功搜證,可唔可以咁講? 34 林秀青女士:係,可以咁講,未能夠成功搜證,未能夠見到有工人喺地盤裏面食煙。但係其 35 實我都想講出一點,就係其實喺勞工處嘅法例裏面,食煙就並唔違法嘅,即係單純 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十六天

9 本謄本由Epiq 編製 工人食煙就並冇違反職安健條例嘅。 1 李澍桓大律師:係,當然,如果--即係我哋都知道,勞工處亦都向委員會提供咗一啲進一步 2 資料,我哋亦都從傳媒睇到,政府就似乎打算立例、修例就全面禁煙。咁一陣間我 3 都想返轉頭再同你討論呢個議題嘅,不過暫時我就先跳去另外一樣嘢,因為你哋亦 4 都有提供另一個文件,我想了解下,就係896 頁,似乎有一個圖表嘅。我哋見到個 5 頂頂嗰度,我哋就見到就係勞工處就宏福苑維修工程地盤的巡查及執法行動摘要, 6 咁就(參考資料),我純粹想搞清楚,呢一個圖表因為都有幾版嘅,係其實係勞工 7 處因應今次委員會嘅要求而做嘅一個表格,即係等我哋方便了解啲資料咁樣嘅,係 8 咪? 9 林秀青女士:係,係,冇錯。 10 李澍桓大律師:咁我相信入面有關嘅資料其實都係根據番可能唔同嘅來源,頭先我哋睇嘅一 11 啲巡查紀錄、信件而做呢一個圖表,係咪? 12 林秀青女士:係,正確。 13 李澍桓大律師:所以我相信即係基本上啲資料都應該係有根有據咁即係做出嚟? 14 林秀青女士:係,係。 15 李澍桓大律師:我想返番轉頭睇多少少你哋就住投訴處理嗰個問題,跟住。如果我哋畀你睇 16 番你嗰份證供嘅第一份陳述書嘅第8 段,咁呢度基本上,我用中文講,就係講緊一 17 個喺2024 年7 月22 號嘅嗰個巡查,咁其中除咗係一個初次嘅巡查,亦都係一個 18 因應投訴而作出嘅巡查,係咪? 19 林秀青女士:係。 20 李澍桓大律師:如果我哋去357 頁,就我哋見到最褸屘嗰句就咁講嘅,“ (English 21 Spoken)”即係(English Spoken),係咪? 22 林秀青女士:係。 23 李澍桓大律師:就“(English Spoken)”,所以其實係咪個情況就係咁?如果我哋睇 24 番926 頁,我哋就應該見到就係有個投訴嘅表格,係咪? 25 林秀青女士:係。 26 李澍桓大律師:咁其實你哋都好快,因為7 月20 號做個投訴,其實你哋7 月22 號就已經 27 做咗嗰個巡查,係咪? 28 林秀青女士:係。 29 李澍桓大律師:咁我哋見到個投訴內容就係話工人工作期間吸煙,罔顧《消防條例》。咁喺 30 927 頁,投訴人就似乎講咗,喺中間嗰度我哋見到佢話你哋要回覆佢,就要用電話 31 回覆嘅? 32 林秀青女士:係。 33 李澍桓大律師:928 頁,我哋見到有兩張相,其實有啲相我哋都之前睇過。咁你放大少少嗰 34 個工人嗰度,其實你就會見到佢喺個似乎棚架嘅範圍入面就食緊煙嘅,啗住支煙 35 嘅? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十六天

10 本謄本由Epiq 編製 林秀青女士:係。 1 李澍桓大律師:跟住929 頁,我就見到有一啲電郵嘅,不過其實如果我哋由930 頁嘅底部 2 開始睇起,似乎呢一個第一個電郵就係7 月22 號,12 點23 分嘅,咁就應該當其 3 時係由勞工處發出畀消防處嘅一個電郵,係咪? 4 林秀青女士:係。 5 李澍桓大律師:咁呢度佢就話“(English Spoken )”,咁就跟住有講“(English 6 Spoken)”。 7 林秀青女士:係。 8 李澍桓大律師:咁就呢個就應該就係你哋勞工處將個投訴轉介畀消防處跟進,係咪? 9 林秀青女士:係,因為其實喺投訴嘅內容裏面,投訴人係指話個--係違反咗《消防條例》 10 嘅,咁同事應該因應投訴人所講嘅違反《消防條例》,所以就將呢個投訴就轉介咗 11 去畀消防處。 12 李澍桓大律師:當然,我哋知道發出呢個電郵嘅就唔係林女士你本人? 13 林秀青女士:係,唔係。 14 李澍桓大律師:我想問要做呢一個咁樣轉介嘅時候,需唔需要譬如--呢位彭先生係咪你嘅下 15 屬嚟? 16 林秀青女士:不是,係另一個組別。 17 李澍桓大律師:不是,另一個組別。 18 林秀青女士:係。 19 李澍桓大律師:咁需唔需要--以你所理解,譬如當一位同事,邊個做都好,佢話要將個投訴 20 轉介去另一個部門嘅時候,喺你哋嘅機制上面,需唔需要通知上司或者得到批核, 21 先至--因為始終都係將件事交咗畀另一個部門吖嘛,需唔需要有呢啲咁樣嘅批核嘅 22 機制? 23 林秀青女士:唔特別需要嘅應該。 24 李澍桓大律師:係,即係呢位同事,姓彭嘅呢位同事似乎就可以自己決定? 25 林秀青女士:係。 26 李澍桓大律師:但係當然,即係如果事後而家睇番,好明顯個投訴就關於係個工人,亦都似 27 乎吸煙嘅地方喺個棚架嘅範圍。 28 林秀青女士:係。 29 李澍桓大律師:其實如果而家你睇番嗰兩張相,你會唔會覺得都似乎唔係完全--即係當然, 30 投訴嘅人係市民,佢未必知道乜嘢條例㗎嘛,咁個個一諗就諗消防,如果你而家睇 31 番,會唔會覺得都可能涉及你哋勞工處管轄嘅範圍? 32 林秀青女士:其實我想講番,就係係涉及我哋管轄嘅範圍,咁呢次同事係做咗轉介,就唔代 33 表我哋冇去跟進呢個投訴。 34 李澍桓大律師:係,係,我會畀--同你一路睇落去嘅。 35 林秀青女士:係。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十六天

11 本謄本由Epiq 編製 李澍桓大律師:因為我哋見到930 頁上面,就大概幾個鐘頭後,消防處就已經回覆番你,咁 1 簡單啲嚟講,中文意思就係佢話「有關嘅情況就唔係我哋消防處嘅職權範圍,咁你 2 可能就考慮應該要將個個案就轉交其他嘅部門,謝謝」,所以呢個就係消防處覆番 3 畀你哋勞工處嘅回覆,係咪? 4 林秀青女士:係。 5 李澍桓大律師:咁我哋見到跟住就喺929 頁,就收到呢個消防處嘅電郵冇耐之後,就7 月 6 20 號,18:05 嘅時間,就似乎呢位姓彭嘅同事係咪就係將呢一個投訴就轉介咗畀 7 林女士你? 8 林秀青女士:係。 9 李澍桓大律師:因為如果睇下面嗰個電郵,佢就係話「你自己睇個電郵講乜,咁而家就畀你 10 跟進」,係咪? 11 林秀青女士:唔。 12 李澍桓大律師:然之後最頂嗰個電郵就係--應該就係林女士你發畀你嘅同事,一位姓關嘅同 13 事,關先生,係咪? 14 林秀青女士:係。 15 李澍桓大律師:就係你就叫佢“(English Spoken)”,咁我相信你嘅意思就係叫佢跟 16 進,係咪? 17 林秀青女士:係。 18 李澍桓大律師:如果我哋去到呢一度,即係話其實去到最後,你哋都同意其實個投訴都同你 19 哋勞工處係有關嘅? 20 林秀青女士:有關嘅。 21 李澍桓大律師:所以林女士你亦都基本上就將個投訴,所以就點解叫同事去做跟進? 22 林秀青女士:係。 23 李澍桓大律師:但係以我嘅理解,當然,我哋都似乎知道就係,同樣地就係因為冇見到有人 24 食煙,所以就冇進一步嘅行動,係咪? 25 林秀青女士:係,係。 26 李澍桓大律師:跟住我想睇一睇你另外提及嘅一個個案,咁... 27 陸啟康法官:我想問下,如果見到有人食煙,你哋嘅行動會係點樣樣? 28 林秀青女士:如果見到有人食煙,我哋會即時停止佢呢個行為。咁就而--因為其實食煙本身 29 就冇違法,但係我哋要睇番有冇火險嘅,即係睇下佢附近有冇一啲譬如易燃嘅物 30 品,就... 31 陸啟康法官:就係嗰個法例嗰個(English Spoken)嗰個? 32 林秀青女士:係,就係即係其實即係《建築地盤(安全)規例》第53 條裏面所講嘅嘢。 33 陸啟康法官:係,係,所以即係亦都係要睇番53 條,其實你哋最主要都係53 條嗰個? 34 林秀青女士:係,正確。 35 陸啟康法官:明白。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十六天

12 本謄本由Epiq 編製 李澍桓大律師:跟住我哋如果睇番你嘅證人口供,第一份363 頁,喺第32 段就應該你-- 1 30 段嗰度開始,其實就應該有提過有另一次嘅所謂叫做加強巡查嘅,係咪? 2 林秀青女士:係。 3 李澍桓大律師:如果我哋尤其是睇第32 段,咁今次呢度似乎你就提到,呢個投訴或者開頭 4 嘅時候有牽涉到有屋宇署,亦都有牽涉到我哋所謂一個獨立審查組ICU 嘅,係咪? 5 林秀青女士:係,係。 6 李澍桓大律師:我想帶你睇一睇一啲有關嘅文件,等我哋了解多少少關於呢一個特別嘅投 7 訴。如果我哋去睇1120 頁,我相信你都好熟悉呢一啲--其實係一啲你哋應該係內 8 部通訊嘅一啲紀錄,係咪? 9 林秀青女士:係,由1823 轉介過嚟嘅個案。 10 李澍桓大律師:係,所以我哋--首先如果我哋由第iii,(English Spoken)嗰度睇, 11 我嘅理解就應該係一路落,呢度就應該係第一個,你見到喺最左手邊嗰度有寫住 12 “No.1”嘅,係咪? 13 林秀青女士:係,係。 14 李澍桓大律師:跟住個(English Spoken)嗰度,我哋就見到係2024 年10 月2 號, 15 就10 點53 分15 秒,就有一個call,即係電話就打入嚟嘅,係咪? 16 林秀青女士:係。 17 李澍桓大律師:咁嗰度我哋有睇到個投訴嘅內容,如果其實我哋喺第2 段嗰度,即係 18 (English Spoken)嗰度,我哋就見到投訴人其中一個投訴就係話,個窗戶上 19 面封有泡沫板,即係我哋所理解嘅發泡膠板。咁就但泡沫板是易燃物料,投訴人詢 20 問部門有沒有其他物料可以替換,或可以在其泡沫板上加裝其他不易燃嘅物料。咁 21 簡單啲嚟講,即係話呢個投訴,除咗講到有啲咩嘢灰塵,閂唔--唔可以開窗之外, 22 最主要其中一個重要嘅投訴就係關於使用呢個發泡膠板嘅問題嘅,係咪? 23 林秀青女士:係。 24 李澍桓大律師:我哋睇落去,下面No.2,就10 點03 分--10 月3 號,即係第二日嘅朝頭 25 早九點幾,咁我就見到有一個(English Spoken )嗰度就有個(English 26 Spoken ),跟住“ (English Spoken )” ,咁跟住就係“ (English 27 Spoken)”,咁我相信就係有人就收到我哋頭先睇嘅原先嘅投訴之後,最初就打 28 算將呢一個投訴就轉介去一個叫做MBID 嘅一個部門,係咪? 29 林秀青女士:係。 30 李澍桓大律師:呢個就應該係咪就係即係強制驗樓嗰個負責嘅科? 31 林秀青女士:以我理解,係。 32 李澍桓大律師:咁我哋睇1121 頁,都係其中上面嘅一個部分,即係頭先No.2 嘅一個部分 33 就話“(English Spoken)”,最頂嗰度“(English Spoken)”,咁似 34 乎呢度亦都講埋個原因,就覺得係屬於佢哋嘅職務範圍,係咪? 35 林秀青女士:係。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十六天

13 本謄本由Epiq 編製 李澍桓大律師:第3,我哋就見到就話呢度有個紀錄嘅,不過就詳細就我哋一陣間會睇,就 1 喺第7 部分嗰度嘅,咁我哋暫時姑且跳咗佢先。 2 林秀青女士:唔。 3 李澍桓大律師:咁就如果我哋跳落去睇第4,我哋嚟到2024 年10 月16 號,咁就上午11 4 點就似乎有個打出嘅電話,咁呢度就記錄咗應該就係有一啲同事就聯絡過投訴人 5 嘅,咁亦都做咗一個紀錄,當然我明白呢個電話唔係你打,不過我哋可以一齊睇一 6 睇個紀錄。如果你見到中間嗰度有個括弧,佢就話「投訴人表示早前就已經就個案 7 自行聯絡過房屋署,但房屋署職員表示有關棚架安全及使用易燃(English 8 Spoken),即係發泡膠,問題需要聯絡屋宇署,咁投訴人就堅持要本中心轉介至 9 屋宇署跟進」。 10 跟住似乎嗰個回覆就咁講嘅,就一段「本署明白閣下嘅樓宇維修工程安全嘅關 11 注,但由於每個個案嘅性質有所不同,本署需考慮個別個案的實際情況,才能作出 12 適當的行動。因此,請你提供具體詳盡嘅資料,例如本署曾發出嘅強制驗樓、驗窗 13 通知編號、屋宇地址位置等,以便本署會進一步跟進及回覆」。 14 如果跳落去,佢就話「如果樓宇或單位/處所位於居者有其屋計劃嘅屋苑,租者 15 置其屋計劃嘅屋邨,又或者公共屋邨範圍內,要根據強制驗窗計劃而進行嘅訂明嘅 16 檢驗同埋修葺嘅話,就請聯絡房屋局常任秘書長辦公室獨立審查組辦理」,咁佢都 17 似乎仲好幫手就畀埋一個--「更多獨立審查組嘅資訊可以瀏覽以下網頁」,咁畀埋 18 條link 似乎呢一個投於人。 19 我嘅理解簡單啲嚟講,邊一個打呢個電話都好,就話我要多啲資料,不過如果 20 你嗰個係居者有其屋,而喺宏福苑似乎就係呢個情況,咁簡單啲嚟講,佢就話「麻 21 煩你去聯絡獨立審查組」,似乎個信息嘅畀個投訴人就係咁,係咪? 22 林秀青女士:係。 23 李澍桓大律師:好快睇埋第5、第6,都係一陣間我哋會睇第7 部嘅一啲仔細嘅資料。跳落 24 去第8,我哋已經嚟到2024 年10 月18 號,朝頭早9 點40 分,就似乎負責處理 25 呢個個案嘅就唔知係咪已經換咗另一位同事,咁純粹係一個(English 26 Spoken),係咪? 27 林秀青女士:係。 28 李澍桓大律師:咁我哋跟住第9 落去,就18 號,朝頭早9 點41 分,咁就睇到就似乎呢一 29 個--其中嘅跳去1122 頁嘅頂嗰度,就似乎就係話,由原本一位姓謝(譯音)嘅 30 (English Spoken )就似乎就轉到去一個叫(English Spoken )嘅一個 31 (English Spoken)? 32 林秀青女士:係。 33 李澍桓大律師:呢度睇唔睇得到,其實係講緊邊一個部門嘅同事?你睇唔睇到? 34 林秀青女士:呢度睇唔到嘅,但係相信係ICU。 35 李澍桓大律師:ICU,okay。跟住再睇第10、第11 個記項嗰度,基本上我哋都係要睇第7 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十六天

14 本謄本由Epiq 編製 部分,咁就第12 嗰度就有一啲似乎就同投訴人嘅一啲跟進。如果我哋直接跳落去 1 睇1125 頁,有啲資料可能係重複嘅,咁不過我想睇番,如果你睇1125 頂嗰度, 2 我哋就見到就有一個叫做(English Spoken)就MBI 嗰邊嘅一個電郵嘅回覆, 3 就覆番畀1823 嘅,咁你見到頂頂嗰度寫住“(English Spoken)”,下面個 4 下款你見到就寫住“(English Spoken)”嘅。 5 林秀青女士:係。 6 李澍桓大律師:咁個內容純粹好快睇到,佢就話“(English Spoken)”,中文佢就話 7 「投訴人提供補充資料」,跳一行佢話「屋苑就正在進行強制驗樓嘅修葺工程,投 8 訴人表示承建商用易燃嘅foamboard 圍封大廈進行維修,而且用嚟搭建嘅竹就非 9 常完整且發霉,每層棚架沒有層架支撐,投訴人擔心棚架安全,需要部門跟進。」 10 如果我哋跳過啲中文睇,跟住嗰個英文就咁寫“(English Spoken)”,你見 11 到個備註(Remarks)嗰度佢又畀咗一啲有關嘅法例、獨立審查組嘅一個互聯網連 12 結。簡單啲嚟講,似乎呢個就係通知番1823 嗰度,麻煩將個案件就係好似我哋之 13 前睇到咁,就係你轉介過去ICU 嗰度處理,係咪? 14 林秀青女士:係。 15 李澍桓大律師:跳落去跟住我哋睇底底嗰度,你見到No.10 嗰度,就2024 年10 月18 號 16 18 點24 分,你見到呢一個,如果跳去1126 頁,其實都係呢個記項嘅其中一部 17 分。先睇個下款就係“ (English Spoken )” ,咁呢個應該就係你頭先所講 18 ICU 嘅同事,一位劉小姐應該係? 19 林秀青女士:係。 20 李澍桓大律師:你見到佢咁講嘅,就講番嗰個投訴嘅個案,然之後英文就話“(English 21 Spoken )” ,跟住如果你最頂嗰度就有一句英文就寫住“ (English 22 Spoken”,已經通知咗勞工處嘅部門。 23 林秀青女士:唔。 24 李澍桓大律師:咁似乎即係話根據呢度所講,去到10 月18 號,就應該以你所知係唔係關於 25 今次呢個投訴,包括發泡膠嘅呢一個問題似乎都將佢轉介咗畀勞工處去跟進? 26 林秀青女士:以我理解係將嗰個竹棚架嘅安全係轉介咗畀勞工處跟進嘅。 27 李澍桓大律師:係,點解你會有個咁嘅理解呢? 28 林秀青女士:因為佢講係“(English Spoken”,即係講緊嗰啲棚嗰啲竹發霉,同埋嗰 29 啲層架,即係唔係每層都有層架嗰個問題。 30 李澍桓大律師:即係既然佢冇特別提,因為你其實呢一個紀錄,你係可以睇得到原本個投訴 31 係乜,係咪? 32 林秀青女士:可以,可以。 33 李澍桓大律師:即係所以其實原本個投訴包含啲咩嘢嘢,其實你係睇得到嘅? 34 林秀青女士:睇到。 35 李澍桓大律師:只不過你嘅講法就係由於劉小姐就只係淨係話關於棚架嘅安全問題,所以你 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十六天

15 本謄本由Epiq 編製 嘅理解就係發泡膠就唔係你哋要處理嘅嘢? 1 林秀青女士:係,不是我哋要處理嘅嘢。 2 李澍桓大律師:咁我哋繼續睇落去,如果1135--就我哋見到1134 開始,處理即係其中投 3 訴個案5,咁其中一部分如果我哋睇1135 頁,個頂部就會睇到我哋呢度都有講, 4 即係你哋都有似乎係--你嘅同事起碼,呢位關先生就意識到投訴嘅一部分就係話承 5 建商用易燃嘅foamboard 圍封大廈進修維修,係咪? 6 林秀青女士:係。 7 李澍桓大律師:即係起碼佢知道個投訴內容,佢有寫埋落去。 8 林秀青女士:知道投訴內容,唔。 9 李澍桓大律師:當然如果睇個findings,就似乎好似你咁講,呢位同事就似乎都淨係講緊 10 個棚架問題,係咪? 11 林秀青女士:係。 12 李澍桓大律師:咁去到最後,我哋見到嘅“ (English Spoken )and FU ” ,FU 係 13 follow up,係咪? 14 林秀青女士:Follow up。 15 李澍桓大律師:同樣地,就係根據勞工處喺10 月23 號嘅結論,就係“ (English 16 Spoken)”,所以你哋嘅講法就話似乎竹枝就完好,亦都畀咗一啲建議佢,所以 17 根據你個講法,就發泡膠唔關我哋事,係咪? 18 林秀青女士:係。 19 李澍桓大律師:呢個個案就完成處理,係咪?喺勞工處個角度。 20 林秀青女士:係,喺勞工處嘅角度,我哋係睇番嗰個竹棚架嗰個安全,咁我哋係做spot 21 check 嘅時候,就發現到有一啲好破爛嘅竹,所以佢亦都有一個表格5 喺度,所以 22 我哋就--同埋佢嗰個竹棚架即係講到冇層架嗰樣,其實因為個竹棚架我哋之前係問 23 過承建商攞番即係關於竹棚架嗰個設計嘅,咁佢亦都有個專業嘅工程師去設計,咁 24 所以... 25 李澍桓大律師:呢個就係即係(English Spoken)--唔好意思,打斷你,但係即係基本 26 上就係(English Spoken)嗰度同一位譚先生管工了解過,亦都畀咗一啲意見 27 佢哋,我哋睇到。 28 林秀青女士:係。 29 李澍桓大律師:我想節省時間,就直接去睇1162 頁,好唔好? 30 林秀青女士:係,好。 31 李澍桓大律師:1162 頁就係我哋睇得到--就係時間嚟到如果一張便箋,我哋睇到就係去到 32 時間已經嚟到2024 年11 月11 號,就應該林女士你就出番一個便箋,就畀番 33 ICU 嘅head(即主管),係咪? 34 林秀青女士:係。 35 李澍桓大律師:簡單啲嚟講,就係你哋話我已經處理咗嗰個投訴,你見到A、B、C 嗰度就有 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十六天

16 本謄本由Epiq 編製 講話你哋調查過嘅嘢。 1 林秀青女士:係。 2 李澍桓大律師:首先A,就係竹上面係唔係有破損,係咪? 3 林秀青女士:係。 4 李澍桓大律師:第二樣嘢就係話嗰個灰塵嘅問題,B。 5 林秀青女士:係。 6 李澍桓大律師:第三,呢度有零零舍舍講到就係話喺個竹棚上面嗰啲所謂或者保護帳幕係唔 7 係符合一個阻燃嘅標準,呢個基本上你哋就話唔係你哋嘅答案嚟嘅,似乎根據你呢 8 一個便箋所講,你就係話你發覺有以下A、B、C 嘅呢啲問題,係咪? 9 林秀青女士:係,係。 10 李澍桓大律師:跟住第二段所講,就係“(English Spoken)”,咁簡單啲嚟講,就係 11 話原來而家由於牽涉到公眾安全嘅問題,個案就交畀你,你去諗下做認為適合嘅工 12 作,係咪? 13 林秀青女士:係。 14 李澍桓大律師:跟住你簽名,留咗你同事嘅聯絡電話或者你嘅聯絡電話。咁睇下你,即係我 15 哋知道個投訴就10 月嘅時候出現,投訴1823,中間轉過唔同嘅部門,似乎最後 16 ICU 就拖埋你哋落水,就你哋要處理。 17 林秀青女士:我哋要處理棚架方面。 18 李澍桓大律師:你哋做咗一啲巡查之後,嚟到11 月11 號,呢啲投訴包括埋發泡膠板,你解 19 釋咗,我哋聽到你嘅解釋話唔關勞工處事,所以去到11 月11 號嘅時候,基本上就 20 將個案交番畀ICU,你去做認為適合嘅嘢,即係ICU 就原本叫埋你落水,去到11 21 月11 號嘅時候,你就將個波交番畀ICU,呢個就係客觀嘅事實,係咪? 22 林秀青女士:係,因為其實佢將個棚架嗰個安全就畀咗勞工處,因為其實都正確嘅。 23 李澍桓大律師:係,唔好,我哋聽過,我唔係想打斷你,不過我想--即係當然我哋其中一樣 24 嘢就嘗試檢討過去做嘅嘢會唔會做得更好。 25 林秀青女士:知道,知道。 26 李澍桓大律師:如果站在投訴人嘅角度嚟講,佢去投訴吸煙嘅問題似乎冇解決到,係咪?即 27 係去到11 月11 號。 28 林秀青女士:唔。 29 李澍桓大律師:就住發泡膠嘅問題似乎起碼站在勞工處嗰面,就冇一個答案或者一個意見畀 30 到個投訴人究竟要點做,因為勞工處一早就覺得唔關勞工處事吖嘛? 31 林秀青女士:係。 32 李澍桓大律師:當然仲有其他嘅投訴即係都似乎好似冇處理過,其實而家我哋睇番轉頭,其 33 實呢一啲即係我都想畀個機會你講一講,你覺得其實呢個個案係唔係可以處理得好 34 啲呢?定還是你覺得勞工處已經做咗應該要做嘅嘢,我哋冇嘢可以再加強? 35 林秀青女士:呢個個案其實我哋當日係處理咗總共五個投訴嘅,其中亦都有另外一啲投訴係 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十六天

17 本謄本由Epiq 編製 同食煙有關嘅,咁我哋同事都有處理過嘅,但係可能喺呢個報告上面可能可以寫得 1 仔細啲,即係寫番係有關食煙嗰個問題。 2 李澍桓大律師:但發泡膠係完全冇處理到,係咪? 3 林秀青女士:係,因為發泡膠就唔係我哋勞工處嘅巡查重點嚟嘅,所以我哋就建築物料呢樣 4 嘢就唔係我哋個範疇,所以我哋冇處理。 5 李澍桓大律師:我明白嘅,所以起碼即係--當然因為你係呢個便箋嘅作者。 6 林秀青女士:係,係。 7 李澍桓大律師:即係會唔會起碼如果譬如你將個理由提醒番ICU 嘅同事,發泡膠呢啲建築物 8 料就唔係我勞工處處理到嘅嘢,咁起碼等佢哋知道即係仲有一部分我係處理唔到 9 嘅,咁係唔係可以至少部門與部門之間加強呢種咁樣嘅溝通?即係你講得清楚啲係 10 唔係... 11 林秀青女士:係,同意嘅。 12 李澍桓大律師:...可以做好啲? 13 林秀青女士:可以做好啲。 14 李澍桓大律師:但係我想講番就係譬如就住吸煙呢個投訴,當然你都講而家我哋亦都政府會 15 立法,打算修例全面禁煙,係咪? 16 林秀青女士:係,係。 17 李澍桓大律師:即係地盤入面唔准食煙,工地。但係如果我哋剛才睇到,即係客觀地似乎居 18 民有投訴,有相,我哋過往喺聽證會期間亦都其實睇到有錄影片段,似乎我哋都有 19 證據顯示嘅,物管公司嗰邊都知道有好多呢啲投訴,承建商自己亦都知道好多呢啲 20 投訴。但係似乎勞工處個講法,就係因為我冇親眼見到,我就冇辦法去做執法嘅, 21 呢個我嘅理解冇錯,係咪? 22 林秀青女士:因為其實都講番喺《職安健條例》裏面,食煙就並冇違反我哋職安健法例嘅。 23 就算我哋即係見到有工人食煙,如果佢隔籬冇一啲易燃物品,其實我哋都喺執法嘅 24 制度我哋係做唔到。 25 李澍桓大律師:知道嘅,我聽到剛才主席都有問咗你嘅。所以我個理解,即係我想問嘅一個 26 問題,就係就算而家政府話修例,咁個地盤全面禁煙,有人唔聽話,喺地盤入面都 27 仍然帶煙入去食煙,其實都係面對番同一個問題嘅,你勞工處去巡查,我見唔到嘅 28 話,其實你都係冇辦法執法? 29 林秀青女士:即係你講緊修例之後? 30 李澍桓大律師:即係其實有冇呢條條例,如果去到最後你都係要講--因為其實而家就算未修 31 例之前,你哋唔係冇得執法,因為譬如你所講有啲情況之下,其實你哋可以執法? 32 林秀青女士:係。 33 李澍桓大律師:但係而家永遠都似乎投訴個案寫住“(English Spoken)”,未能確立 34 或者未能支持,其實個問題唔係因為冇呢件事發生,而係你哋落去巡查嘅時候睇唔 35 到有人做,我嘅理解啱唔啱? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十六天

18 本謄本由Epiq 編製 林秀青女士:係,你理解啱嘅。 1 李澍桓大律師:即係所以點解我嘗試話可能(English Spoken ),就唔係咁公道嘅講 2 法... 3 陸啟康法官:我諗呢個係嗰個執法難度個問題。 4 林秀青女士:係,個執法難處。 5 陸啟康法官:我諗喺前置你一定有好多感受,係咪? 6 林秀青女士:係。 7 陸啟康法官:即係或者你可以講下。即係諗亦都聽到似乎政府都有啲解決方案,又會有個責 8 任喺個承建商度,或者可能第二時用無人機去執法咁樣樣。 9 林秀青女士:係。 10 陸啟康法官:我諗你係前線嘅,我相信對於執法方面你都會有好多困難,你可以喺呢度同大 11 家講講嘅,如果你想嘅話。 12 林秀青女士:係,好,好。係,即係喺執法方面,其實我哋就即係因為一定要跟番個法例去 13 做,即係如果我哋--因為現行嘅法例底下,我哋即係就算見到工人食煙,我哋都辦 14 法可以執法。但係同埋其實我哋都儘量去睇,因為其實我哋除咗睇食煙之外,我哋 15 仲睇番有冇火險嘅。即係現行法例底下如果係有個火險喺度,我哋都即係會去有個 16 《禁煙令》嘅。但係即係而家呢個情況就未引發到有呢個可能性,因為其實喺現行 17 法例嘅基礎底下,就即係單純食煙,我哋都要睇番附近有冇火險。 18 李澍桓大律師:我諗或者《禁煙令》嗰個問題,我留番即係同你另一位同事,應該係你上司 19 李先生,或者我再同佢考慮,因為似乎佢都就住《禁煙令》呢個情況,佢都做咗啲 20 解說畀我哋知,或者我交番等佢去講。如果就住即係投訴食煙嘅,你都講咗即係有 21 啲困難,咁我睇下會唔會即係其中一個可能解決到件事,其實我哋喺呢個案入面都 22 見到好多有陣時啲錄影片段、相片,其實可能都未必要親眼見到,或者聯絡番投訴 23 人,或者影嗰個片段嘅人,叫佢去講番其實佢喺邊度影,幾時影,有冇做過手腳呢 24 條片段,其實可能或者將來都可以考慮係佐證嘅一部分。 25 林秀青女士:係,完全同意嘅,將來可以做一個佐證。 26 李澍桓大律師:最後喺我未跳落去棚網嗰個之前,我想你解釋多一樣嘢。就係如果我哋 27 D1/968 頁,我哋見到有另一個8 月8 號嘅巡查,因為呢張我相信就唔係你做嘅表 28 格嚟嘅,係咪? 29 林秀青女士:唔係,係我同事做嘅。 30 李澍桓大律師:但係我見到圈住“(English Spoken)”嗰度,你可唔可以--或者你知 31 唔知係佢講緊乜嘢嘅? 32 林秀青女士:呢個其實係同事第二次去到做巡查嘅時候,佢當時都係收到有關吸煙嘅投訴, 33 就即係似乎佢就去同嗰個承建商去理解,喺食煙方面承建商做咗啲乜嘢,因為其實 34 即係大家都知道under 我哋個法例底下,我哋冇辦法去做一個檢控,如果就算見 35 到工人食煙。但係即係亦都因應我哋嘅敦促底下,即係睇下承建商會唔會有一啲措 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十六天

19 本謄本由Epiq 編製 施可以做到,後面見到佢寫住“(English Spoken)”,即係我哋了解過其實 1 承建商嗰度係有一啲措施嘅,咁如果... 2 李澍桓大律師:即係如果話畀同事聽有啲工人譬如罰款咁樣? 3 林秀青女士:係,因為其實如果係工入第一次畀佢見到食煙嘅時候就會罰款,第二次就會趕 4 離場。 5 李澍桓大律師:我想喺早休之前睇兩份文件,因為第971 頁其實都睇到,呢個係一個中文版 6 本,就勞工處唔係真係乜都冇做嘅,譬如我哋見到呢個就係出咗一封信,左下角我 7 哋見到個日期係8 月9 號2024 年,即係巡查之後嘅第二日即刻做咗封信,咁就出 8 畀宏業,即係個總承建商,係咪? 9 林秀青女士:係。 10 李澍桓大律師:其實如果我哋睇第一段就見到,講番8 月8 號做咗個巡查。第二段我哋就見 11 到咁講「本處人員喺呢次巡視中發現,你貴公司沒有遵守《建築地盤(安全)規 12 例》和《工廠及工業經營條例》嘅其他附屬規例所訂明嘅若干規定,呢啲規定嘅表 13 現列於地盤視察報告嘅第1 部分及第2 部分,現夾附該報告,以供參閱。」簡單啲 14 嚟講,呢段嘅意思就係話我哋見到有一啲違規嘅情況,亦都記錄咗喺呢一份叫做地 15 盤視察報告入面,而家話埋畀你知你犯咗啲咩嘢規,有啲咩嘢事件,係咪? 16 林秀青女士:係。 17 李澍桓大律師:如果我哋睇972 頁,就係嗰個頂頂我哋見到建築地盤視察報告書。跟住如果 18 我哋睇第一項,我哋見到就係咁樣講嘅,中文就話「地盤內若使用易燃液體或任何 19 含有該等液體嘅混合物,或足以引致火警危險物質或東西,必須採取步驟以禁止吸 20 煙,及不得使用無遮蓋燈火。」呢個就係剛才主席都有提過,就係53 條入面嘅嗰 21 個情況,係咪? 22 林秀青女士:係。 23 李澍桓大律師:但係我反為想理解嘅,就係呢度似乎你呢封信就係話你哋有啲違規嘅情況, 24 我哋喺個報告度講發現嘅嘢。但係正如剛才我哋都睇,似乎一路落嚟,其實你哋係 25 冇發覺到有工人吸煙嘅問題,點解會將呢一部分都擺喺呢個視察報告入面呢? 26 林秀青女士:係,因為即係喺工人食煙嗰度我哋冇一個特定法例去執法,但係我哋都有書面 27 去提醒番個承建商要注意番嗰個工人吸煙個行為嘅,而我哋亦都藉住呢個視察報告 28 書就係提醒番佢,所以你見到喺前面最左手邊第一、第二個(English 29 Spoken)嗰度係冇剔到,即係佢並唔係一啲違例。但係我哋都想提醒番個承建商 30 有啲咩嘢事項要注意,所以亦都喺呢度列出相關咗法例嘅條文,等承建商可以注意 31 番。 32 陸啟康法官:因為我諗相信你哋巡查唔到,其實吸煙始終喺... 33 林秀青女士:喺宏福苑呢度係有存在過嘅。 34 陸啟康法官:...地盤都應該係會存在,係。 35 林秀青女士:有存在嘅,係。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十六天

20 本謄本由Epiq 編製 李澍桓大律師:主席,我其實跟住落嚟會轉落去講關於棚網嘅話題,咁都會有段時間嘅。我 1 唔知會唔會而家係一個適當嘅時間? 2 陸啟康法官:我哋休息十五分鐘,好唔好?十五分鐘。 3

4 11 時05 分聆訊押後 5 11 時21 分聆訊恢復 6

7 陸啟康法官:請繼續吖。 8 李澍桓大律師:係,唔該,主席。 9 林秀青女士:係。 10 李澍桓大律師:林女士,喺早休前我哋就剛剛談及過吸煙、談及過發泡膠,即係呢啲冇解決 11 到嘅問題嘞。我想跟住落嚟同你講一講關於嗰個棚架同埋棚網嗰個問題。 12 林秀青女士:唔。 13 李澍桓大律師:其實喺你嘅證人陳述書都有講呢,其實喺2024 年7 月22 號嘅時候呢,勞 14 工處做完一次巡查,其實就有問過承建商,要佢宏業提供一啲棚網嘅阻燃證書嘅, 15 如果我哋睇番你第一份證人口供第357 頁第9 段嗰度,嗰度基本上就講述咗相關嘅 16 議題。如果最褸屘嗰度,你見到喺第9 段最褸屘嗰句,你問佢攞嘅資料就係有 17 (English Spoken),所以除咗問佢攞嗰個所謂阻燃證書之外呢,... 18 林秀青女士:係。 19 李澍桓大律師:...仲要佢提供埋一啲送貨單畀你哋勞工處嘅,係咪? 20 林秀青女士:係。 21 李澍桓大律師:我相信林女士你係知悉當其時你嘅同事做咗嗰咁嘅要求嘅,係咪呀? 22 林秀青女士:知道。 23 李澍桓大律師:咁我哋睇一睇相關嘅文件。咁如果即係就住2024 年7 月嘅呢一個要求,我 24 哋如果睇D1 文件冊/第1599 頁,我哋就見到似乎呢一個就係--你都確認就係宏 25 業之後向你哋提供嘅一啲檢驗報告同埋相關文件喇。 26 林秀青女士:係。 27 李澍桓大律師:1600 頁,即係下一頁,我哋就見到相關嘅證書喇。如果我哋睇右手邊嘅欄 28 目第三欄,我哋就見到個樣品等級嗰度寫住係「合格品」,係咪? 29 林秀青女士:係。 30 李澍桓大律師:我哋見到任務編號嗰度就係20240105,即係2024 年似乎係1 月5 號 31 喇,咁跟住樣品日期落少少,左手邊嗰度我哋就見到2024 年0105 喇。跳番過去 32 右手邊,送樣日期,即係送呢啲樣品去似乎國內做測試嘅時候就係都係2024 年1 33 月5 號,生產嘅日期原編號都係2024 年1 月5 號喇。跟住如果我哋睇𢲩咗嘅印章 34 嗰度,我哋都見到,呢個簽發日期,呢張證書就喺2024 年似乎係1 月8 號由相關 35 嘅檢驗中心簽發嘅,係咪? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十六天

21 本謄本由Epiq 編製 林秀青女士:係。 1 李澍桓大律師:呢個如果我哋睇埋啲送貨單,1604 頁喇,我哋亦都見到有啲速運公司嘅記 2 錄喇,見到左手邊寫住畀宏福苑陳耀輝先生,咁呀相關嘅一啲記錄。 3 林秀青女士:係。 4 李澍桓大律師:我相信喺2024 年7 月嘅時候,你嘅同事應該都有匯報番畀你知就收到呢啲 5 文件,似乎表面上呢啲文件就妥當,係咪? 6 林秀青女士:係。 7 李澍桓大律師:如果我哋再睇你嘅證人陳述書第83 段,喺379 頁呢,咁我哋知道就喺 8 2025 年11 月20 號呢,即係接近兩年,二十二個月之後呢,其實就勞工處就有再 9 巡查,亦都有因為颱風之後換咗一啲新嘅棚網,所有你哋就有要求一啲新嘅棚網嗰 10 啲阻燃證書嘅,係咪? 11 林秀青女士:係。 12 李澍桓大律師:我哋亦都知道宏業係提供咗一啲阻燃證書嘅,係咪? 13 林秀青女士:係。 14 李澍桓大律師:如果我哋睇第二次佢提供嘅呢,我哋就可以見到喺1685 頁,都係D1 文件 15 冊。如果我哋睇1686 頁,我諗你都知道嘞而家,簡單啲嚟講,其實呢一張證書喺 16 二十二個月或者接近兩年前,即係7 月嘅時候你收到嗰份其實係同一份嚟嘅。 17 林秀青女士:係。 18 李澍桓大律師:咁當然,如果你哋--即係林女士你喺證人陳述書嗰個解釋呢,對你公道,畀 19 你睇番,379 頁第一份,第83 段最褸屘嗰度呢,你個解釋就係話“(English 20 Spoken)”,咁即係話喺年多前,你哋收到嗰份呢,你都確認,其實你都知道其 21 實而家就睇番同一份嚟嘅。 22 林秀青女士:係。 23 李澍桓大律師:不過,當其時你哋就冇為意到,就係因為專注嗰個測試嘅結果,你哋就想睇 24 有冇合格。 25 林秀青女士:係。 26 李澍桓大律師:唔好介意我咁講,即係其實你個同事,首先,你自己有冇收到呢份證書,有 27 冇睇過㗎? 28 林秀青女士:有收到。 29 李澍桓大律師:因為20240105 嘅,如果我哋睇1686 頁,其實呢個日子都出現過幾次 30 嘅。 31 林秀青女士:唔。 32 李澍桓大律師:同埋我相信你哋嘅檔案入面應該都有存檔之前嗰張㗎嘛,係咪? 33 林秀青女士:係。 34 李澍桓大律師:有冇你自己或者你嘅同事曾經做過比對,睇番第一張? 35 林秀青女士:沒有。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十六天

22 本謄本由Epiq 編製 李澍桓大律師:係,即係而家睇番會唔會可能係又係另一個可以改善嘅地方,即係似乎而家 1 因為我哋有證據聽到呢啲新嘅棚網似乎的而且確係有機會係非阻燃嘅棚網嚟嘅。 2 林秀青女士:唔,係。 3 李澍桓大律師:你而家睇番會唔會--即係如果大家都小心啲,做事唔好太過即係馬虎嘅話, 4 其實就可能會發覺到,「喂,你畀番第一次嗰張我喎。」未必係新嘅一批,即係可 5 能都會有個警號響起喇,係咪? 6 林秀青女士:係。 7 李澍桓大律師:呢個可能係要改善嘅地方,同唔同意? 8 林秀青女士:同意。 9 李澍桓大律師:但係有另一個更大嘅問題,我想睇下你嘅睇法。因為你嘅上司李先生或者另 10 一位將會出現嘅證人袁先生,佢哋都似乎個講法就話其實你哋就算收到個證書,由 11 於你哋冇專業嘅知識,其實你哋都真係收到個證書得個睇字嘅啫。 12 林秀青女士:正確。 13 李澍桓大律師:係咪呀? 14 林秀青女士:係。 15 李澍桓大律師:即係其實呢張證書寫住「合格」係咪真係合格,或者佢用咩測試嘅標準,係 16 咪符合你哋要求,其實你哋都冇一啲專業嘅知識去定奪㗎喎? 17 林秀青女士:係,我哋冇呢個相關嘅專業,我哋亦都唔會去採樣,同埋唔會搦去做測試咁 18 樣。 19 李澍桓大律師:咁有冇試過喺你哋嘅--即係因為好明顯似乎你哋係關注棚網係咪阻燃嘅呢個 20 問題㗎喇,係咪? 21 林秀青女士:其實我哋關注即係棚網主要嘅用途就係限制啲物料墮下嘅。 22 李澍桓大律師:係吖。 23 林秀青女士:係。 24 李澍桓大律師:但係如果你唔關注佢係咪阻燃嘅,咁起碼2024 年7 月嘅時候,第一次冇理 25 由問人攞啲阻燃證書喇,係咪? 26 林秀青女士:係,係,都關注嘅。 27 李澍桓大律師:因為呢個係影響到成個棚架嘅安全㗎嘛,係咪? 28 林秀青女士:正確。 29 李澍桓大律師:如果唔阻燃,有機會燒著咗嘅話,即使站在工人嘅角度,都未必係安全㗎 30 嘛,係咪呀? 31 林秀青女士:係。 32 李澍桓大律師:但係我想問嘅就係你哋喺過程入面,如果你哋冇咁嘅專業知識,有冇嘗試過 33 所謂同其他嘅政府部門,例如屋宇署、ICU、化驗室、即係政府化驗室去了解究竟 34 乜嘢為之係阻燃,咩嘢唔阻燃,有冇做過呢一啲咁樣嘅工夫呢? 35 林秀青女士:冇去做呢啲工夫嘅,只係有將嗰個棚網相關嘅問題,有一次就喺11 月11 號就 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十六天

23 本謄本由Epiq 編製 轉介咗畀ICU。 1 李澍桓大律師:呢個講緊25 年嗰次吖嘛? 2 林秀青女士:25 年嗰... 3 李澍桓大律師:即係... 4 林秀青女士:24 年,24 年。 5 李澍桓大律師:24 年,但係我哋因為知道你25 年嘅時候都--即係剛才我哋睇到就係11 月 6 嘅時候你都再問佢攞阻燃證書吖嘛? 7 林秀青女士:係,係。 8 李澍桓大律師:其實即係喺--可唔可以咁講,勞工處嘅角度都仍然係關注呢個議題㗎嘛。 9 林秀青女士:係。 10 李澍桓大律師:如果唔係唔會問佢攞第二次喇。 11 林秀青女士:係,正確。 12 李澍桓大律師:即係其實攞完你又唔知究竟入面講嘅嘢有道理定冇道理,其實即係唔好介意 13 我咁講,都係得個做字,其實冇特別意義㗎喎。 14 林秀青女士:係因為根番嗰個工作安全守則裏面,佢需要符合一個阻燃效能,所以係嘞,我 15 哋都關注嘅,所以都因應有需要呢,我哋就會攞呢個棚網證書。 16 李澍桓大律師:你講緊就係嗰個《竹棚架工作安全守則》吖嘛,係咪呀? 17 林秀青女士:係,正確。 18 李澍桓大律師:即係由勞工處出嘅,咁不如我哋睇一睇呢個文件,我知道喺大概係咪應該 19 2024 年10 月19 號就有一個第五版本? 20 林秀青女士:係。 21 李澍桓大律師:即係亦都係而家最新版本,係咪? 22 林秀青女士:正確。 23 李澍桓大律師:再之前就用緊一個叫做第四版本嘅? 24 林秀青女士:係。 25 李澍桓大律師:其實有關嗰個守則你哋都提供咗畀我哋嘅,如果我哋睇應該係633 頁,咁我 26 哋應該係有個英文版嘅,D1 文件冊,634 我哋就見到有個英文嘅(English 27 Spoken),係咪? 28 林秀青女士:係。 29 李澍桓大律師:呢個就係你所講嗰個安全守則喇? 30 林秀青女士:係。 31 李澍桓大律師:如果我哋睇入面嘅第636 頁,就我哋知道第1.4 段就講緊由2017 年9 月 32 1 號開始呢,呢一個工作守則就生效,係咪? 33 林秀青女士:係。 34 李澍桓大律師:如果我哋直接跳去第4.4.4 段,4.4.4,我就用個中文版本喇,咁我因為 35 可能譯得準確啲咁樣會。4.4.4 就係講緊設置斜柵和保護幕。如果我哋跳去(d)嗰 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十六天

24 本謄本由Epiq 編製 度,呢度就咁講嘅,「棚架面上應裝置適當並由遲延燃燒物料造成的保護幕,用以 1 限制物件墮下的範圍。」 2 林秀青女士:係。 3 李澍桓大律師:跟住再講「如使用油布」,即係如果呢一個保護幕係使用油布作為保護幕嘅 4 物料嘅話,「油布嘅遲延燃燒性質應符合英國標準或其他等同的國家或國際標準或 5 規定。」喺呢度停一停,純粹睇緊第四版本嘅呢一個段落就似乎講緊咁樣嘅,保護 6 幕就基本上嚟講一定要用一啲所謂叫做遲延燃燒物料造成。 7 林秀青女士:係。 8 李澍桓大律師:咁不過保護幕可以有好多種唔同嘅方式嘅,如果你係用油布作為個保護幕嘅 9 話,根據第四版本,就有講到明嗰個阻燃或者低燃嘅標準要跟某一啲國家嘅國際標 10 準嘅,係咪? 11 林秀青女士:係。 12 李澍桓大律師:所以如果用第四個版本嚟講,你可以嚴格上就話,如果你用尼龍網嘅話,就 13 未必有一個特定嘅標準講到明喺呢個安全守則入面,係咪? 14 林秀青女士:係,係。 15 李澍桓大律師:咁但係當然喇,似乎--因為我哋都講喇,第五個版本如果我哋好快睇一睇, 16 喺第五個版本,其實我哋喺684 頁就有新嗰個版本嘅,咁如果我哋睇入面嗰個生效 17 日期呢,喺第690 頁,咁我哋知道1.4 段就有講其實呢個第五版本就喺2024 年 18 10 月19 號生效嘅,係咪? 19 林秀青女士:係,係。 20 李澍桓大律師:所以都係24 年嘅事。如果我哋睇4.4.4 都係(d)嗰段呢,新嘅版本就有 21 咁講嘞,我用中文讀出嚟,就話「棚架面上應裝置適當的保護幕(例如尼龍網、塑 22 膠布、帆布等),用以限制物件墮下嘅範圍,所有在棚架面上裝設嘅保護網、保護 23 幕、防水油布或塑膠帆布均應具備適當嘅阻然特性,並符合認可標準。」咁跟住下 24 面就列出咗一啲相關嘅國際標準,唔同地方,包括應該係我哋國家嘅一啲使用嘅標 25 準,係咪? 26 林秀青女士:係。 27 李澍桓大律師:所以比較第五同第四版本,其中一個分別就係第五版本似乎講得更清楚,就 28 唔係淨係油布,就連尼龍網都要符合呢啲即係公認嘅一啲國家級嘅阻燃標準,係 29 咪? 30 林秀青女士:係。 31 李澍桓大律師:但係當然喇,我哋話雖然似乎講緊嘅就第五版本喺24 年10 月19 號先生效 32 喇,但係如果我哋睇番剛才所知道嘅,就勞工處其實喺2024 年7 月,即係第五版 33 本未生效之前,就住棚網,即係唔係油布,棚網,喺宏福苑個案入面其實都已經要 34 求個阻燃證書,係咪? 35 林秀青女士:係。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十六天

25 本謄本由Epiq 編製 李澍桓大律師:所以即係可唔可以咁講,喺呢一方面勞工處就先行一步,未生效都已經跟新 1 嘅標準去做,可唔可以咁講? 2 林秀青女士:都可以嘅,因為其實第四版已經有講佢需要有一個阻燃效能㗎,唔。 3 李澍桓大律師:係。所以即係其實我哋從來唔係話棚網就唔使阻燃,油布先要阻燃吖嘛? 4 林秀青女士:係,冇呢個講法。 5 李澍桓大律師:當然你亦都應該知道屋宇署有一份叫做APP-70 嘅作業守則,係咪? 6 林秀青女士:係。 7 李澍桓大律師:如果我哋都好快去睇一睇喺J1-1 嗰個文件夾度/第688 頁,我哋就有一個 8 由屋宇署嘅文件,我哋就見到係一個(English Spoken),有講到關於如果喺 9 頂部嗰度就係話“(English Spoken)”,即係亦都係講緊一啲保護幕,棚網 10 嗰啲咁樣嘅情況喇。左下角我哋見到簽發日期就係95 年5 月,咁其實如果你睇番 11 個上文,其實第一段就已經講咗㗎嘞,“(English Spoken)”,咁下面跟住 12 就有講三個主要嘅法例喇。 13 林秀青女士:係。 14 李澍桓大律師:我相信(a)嗰個就係勞工處都成日要處理嘅,就係工地嗰個安全嘅嗰個守則 15 喇,係咪? 16 林秀青女士:係,係。 17 李澍桓大律師:所以其實除咗勞工處自己嗰個所謂工作安全守則之外,本身長久以嚟喺屋宇 18 署亦都訂明咗包括保護幕,其實係需要有一定嘅要求嘅,係咪? 19 林秀青女士:係。 20 李澍桓大律師:如果我哋再睇第4 段呢度,即係同一個文件我哋就會見到,就話中文嘅意 21 思,如果睇(a)就呢啲保護幕要用一啲即係所謂阻燃物料嘅,係咪? 22 林秀青女士:係。 23 李澍桓大律師:所以正如我所講,唔係淨係勞工處,屋宇署都有一啲要求喺度? 24 林秀青女士:係。 25 李澍桓大律師:我相信勞工處喺執法嘅時候都會兩者都跟㗎喇,即係你唔會淨係選擇睇個工 26 作守則,就唔理會APP-70 嘅呢一個文件㗎嘛,係咪? 27 林秀青女士:以我所知其實修訂第五版個工作守則嘅時候都係因應屋宇署嘅意見,所以將呢 28 個阻燃標準就加番落去個第五版嘅工作守則裏面。 29 李澍桓大律師:係,所以我相信大家都會可以同意,即係無論喺任何時間,棚網又好,或者 30 一般叫保護幕,喺個棚架上面要阻燃,有個要求嘅呢,根據唔同嘅作業守則,其實 31 一向都有呢個要求嘅,係咪? 32 林秀青女士:係,係。 33 李澍桓大律師:第五呢個版本你係幾時知道即係嚟緊2024 年10 月19 號會有一個新嘅版 34 本㗎,你自己本人? 35 林秀青女士:幾時知道? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十六天

26 本謄本由Epiq 編製 李澍桓大律師:唔。 1 林秀青女士:可能係24 年,24 年嘅年頭,即係佢4 月份開始就已經係知道有㗎嘞。 2 李澍桓大律師:即係我相信上司都會提醒你哋嚟緊就有一個新嘅版本去--即係有啲修改。 3 林秀青女士:係。 4 李澍桓大律師:邊啲地方修改,都會有啲咁樣嘅電郵通知你哋喇,我相信,係咪呀? 5 林秀青女士:係,有。 6 李澍桓大律師:我想喺度同你睇番一個你處理過嘅一個個案,咁個投訴其實喺D1 文件冊嘅 7 1463 嗰度,其實我哋會睇得到嘅。1463 你會睇到其實呢個係草擬嘅一個回覆喇, 8 係咪? 9 林秀青女士:係。 10 李澍桓大律師:我哋喺頂度見到有個(English Spoken),但係其實我哋可以睇得番最 11 頂嗰度就係講緊關於投訴嘅一啲事件嘅。咁簡單啲嚟講就係,如果我哋睇中間有個 12 黑線,第一條黑線下面,其實嗰個就係其中有講到嗰個投訴嘅內容,如果尾嗰度就 13 話「本人想知道宏業有沒有向貴處遞交相關嘅文件?顯示所涉人數、機械使用?」 14 最褸屘呢句嘞,「而棚架所用嘅保護幕,宏業有沒有採用合標準阻燃嘅物料?」咁 15 呢個就基本上係個投訴,係咪? 16 林秀青女士:唔。 17 李澍桓大律師:嘅其中一部分。 18 林秀青女士:唔。 19 李澍桓大律師:咁然之後應該就係林女士你就做咗一個即係草擬嘅回覆喇,係咪?下面嗰 20 度。 21 林秀青女士:其實個草擬就係同事幫我草擬嘅。 22 李澍桓大律師:係,唔緊要。 23 林秀青女士:咁個回覆都係我出嘅。 24 李澍桓大律師:你睇過㗎嘛,係咪? 25 林秀青女士:睇過嘅。 26 李澍桓大律師:即係所以你同事其實幫你草擬咗,批核嗰個就係你嚟嘅,係咪呀? 27 林秀青女士:係,冇錯。 28 李澍桓大律師:我哋見到既然係咁嘅話,就不如直接睇1462,因為既然你都確認咗,其實 29 呢個就係你喺最頂嗰度,我哋見到就係回覆番畀個投訴人嘅一個電郵,係咪? 30 林秀青女士:係。 31 李澍桓大律師:我哋見到個寄件日期就係2024 年10 月4 號,星期五,11 點41 分,係 32 咪? 33 林秀青女士:係。 34 李澍桓大律師:跟住如果我哋睇內文嘅第3 段,咁你都咁講嘅,你就話「有關棚架上裝置嘅 35 保護幕(棚網)嘅作用係限制物件墮下嘅範圍,保護人們免受墮下嘅物料、工具或 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十六天

27 本謄本由Epiq 編製 廢料擊中,而根據現時勞工處所執行適用於建築地盤嘅安全條例中,並沒有涵蓋關 1 於棚網或任何物料嘅阻燃標準。此外,根據本處人員對該地盤視察所得,該維修工 2 程並不需要在棚架竹棚上進行熱工序,使用明火或者易燃物品等等。」咁所以你簡 3 單啲嚟講,你再總結就話「因此,棚網發生火災嘅風險相對為低,而本處亦已經提 4 醒有關嘅承建商必須做好地盤內嘅防火措施,以防止火災發生」,你都確認呢段係 5 跟你嘅意思。 6 林秀青女士:係。 7 李澍桓大律師:你確認而回覆投訴人㗎喇,係咪? 8 林秀青女士:確認。 9 李澍桓大律師:其實剛才我哋都睇到,你亦都糾正咗我嘞,其實不嬲都有呢個阻燃嘅要求 10 嘅。 11 林秀青女士:係。 12 李澍桓大律師:即係只不過第五版本就講得更加清楚嘅啫。 13 林秀青女士:係。 14 李澍桓大律師:你如果而家睇番呢個回文,你講話根據現時勞工處執行嘅適用嘅安全條例, 15 冇涵蓋到棚網或者任何物料嘅阻燃標準,會唔會似乎唔係咁準確呢? 16 林秀青女士:係可以更加全面啲嘅。 17 李澍桓大律師:唔,因為好明顯其實係有喇。 18 林秀青女士:係。 19 李澍桓大律師:所以你話冇嘅話,就首先第一,即係我諗唔係淨係唔準確,唔係唔係咁準 20 確,呢個係直情唔準確,係咪? 21 林秀青女士:係。因為當時第四版就冇嗰個標準喺度嘅,但係都需要有嗰個效能嘅。 22 李澍桓大律師:第二樣嘢就係我正正想講嘞,其實你呢個電郵就係2024 年10 月4 號發出 23 㗎嘛? 24 林秀青女士:係。 25 李澍桓大律師:其實喺十五日之後,10 月19 號第五版本就已經生效㗎嘞嘛? 26 林秀青女士:係。 27 李澍桓大律師:你亦都講咗,其實可能喺24 年年中左右,你其實亦都已經知道有一個新版 28 本,上司提醒咗你哋10 月會生效㗎喇嘛? 29 林秀青女士:係。 30 李澍桓大律師:你唔係10 月19 號先知道有第五版本㗎嘛? 31 林秀青女士:不是。 32 李澍桓大律師:所以即係亦都我哋剛才睇過,事實上你哋2024 年7 月都已經開始問人要攞 33 阻燃證書,即係唔係淨係問佢一句就算喇似乎,係咪? 34 林秀青女士:係。 35 李澍桓大律師:所以你其實冇可能同人講話冇任何所謂安全條例涵蓋呢個阻燃嘅要求喎? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十六天

28 本謄本由Epiq 編製 林秀青女士:明白,而家睇番係應該可以即係寫得更加好。 1 李澍桓大律師:而家睇番呢個入面嘅內容係錯喇,係咪? 2 林秀青女士:唔,係。 3 李澍桓大律師:但係個問題就係如果投訴嘅人依賴咗你嘅資料嘅,咁佢亦都會被--某個程度 4 上誤信咗其實係冇一個阻燃嘅標準或者要求。 5 林秀青女士:係冇咁準確囉,係呀。 6 李澍桓大律師:呢個唔好介意,即係我諗我哋要講得好清晰,唔係冇咁準確,呢個係不準 7 確,同唔同意?因為其實係有㗎嘛? 8 林秀青女士:因為其實係有嗰個阻燃效能,但係當時係冇嗰個標準嘅,我都明白係應該--係 9 嘞,即係寫得更加周全啲嘅。 10 李澍桓大律師:唔。而好明顯即係棚網,即係尼龍網呢樣嘢,就算喺第五版未推出之前,你 11 哋都視之為佢係保護幕嘅其中一種嚟㗎嘛,係咪? 12 林秀青女士:係,係。 13 李澍桓大律師:主席,我冇其他問題。 14 陸啟康法官:唔該。有冇--睇下先,居民代表,請。 15 劉晉安大律師:居民代表。林女士,我有啲問題關於嗰個吸煙個巡查想問一問你嘅。 16 林秀青女士:好。 17 劉晉安大律師:頭先你作供時候都畀過你睇2024 年7 月嘅時候呢,有宏盛閣嘅吸煙投訴, 18 亦都有啲相片,兩張相片,啲工人喺棚架上面食煙嘅,記唔記得呀? 19 林秀青女士:係,記得。 20 劉晉安大律師:你哋勞工處去做呢啲巡查嘅時候會係喺地面巡查定係會上樓咁樣㗎? 21 林秀青女士:我哋一般會喺地面嗰度巡查嘅,如果有需要嘅時候,我哋都會上去天台嗰度睇 22 番較早樓層嘅位置囉。 23 劉晉安大律師:有需要,即係點樣情況有需要,你認為? 24 林秀青女士:當然,我哋一般就會喺地下做巡查先喇,但係即係如果發現可能有啲工人都喺 25 比較高層嘅位置做嘢喎,我哋都會關心番佢哋嘅職安健,所以我哋都會去到天台嘅 26 地方去睇番佢哋較高層工人做嘢嘅位置? 27 劉晉安大律師:即係如果地面巡查見唔到,咁係咪即係唔會話專登上樓咁樣㗎? 28 林秀青女士:都未必嘅,即係我哋都會上樓睇番上面天台嗰個環境,同埋即係有陣時都可能 29 需要睇番佢哋嗰啲獨立救生繩嗰啲位置咁樣嘅。 30 劉晉安大律師:你哋去巡查呢啲吸煙投訴會逗留幾耐㗎? 31 林秀青女士:視乎情況,因為我哋又唔係單純去睇吸煙嘅投訴嘅,我哋一去到地盤我哋會睇 32 番所有有關職安健嘅問題,即係可能關於工作,或者一啲吊運安全咁樣,咁都係視 33 乎嗰個情況而定,有陣時如果係有發現,即係譬如有見到--好似有一次有違例事項 34 嘅話呢,我哋係逗留成個下晝喺度㗎。 35 劉晉安大律師:另外,想問一問,譬如好似我哋剛才睇到個投訴喇,宏盛閣嘅投訴話有吸煙 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十六天

29 本謄本由Epiq 編製 嘅情況喇。 1 林秀青女士:係。 2 劉晉安大律師:咁你哋係咪會即係針對宏盛閣嚟睇個吸煙㗎? 3 林秀青女士:唔係針對宏盛閣,因為其實我哋即係除咗去番投訴嘅位置睇番之外呢,因為其 4 實工人做嘢地方都係好流動性㗎嘛,所以我哋都會全面咁睇晒成個地盤唔同嘅範圍 5 嘅。 6 劉晉安大律師:咁針對嗰一次嚟講,你哋有冇巡晒成個宏福苑嘅吸煙嘅情況? 7 林秀青女士:都會有㗎,即係唔係淨係單單喺個宏盛閣,我哋都會睇番所有有工程做嘅地方 8 嘅。 9 劉晉安大律師:冇其他問題。 10 陸啟康法官:唔該晒,劉律師,另外有冇其他,除咗政府以外?如果冇,請孫大律師。 11 孫靖乾資深大律師:好,早晨,林女士,有幾方面想同你再問多少少問題。 12 林秀青女士:係。 13 孫靖乾資深大律師:第一樣嘢就係,今日李大律師一開始嘅時候就有問過話你哋勞工處做嘅 14 嗰啲嘅巡查,咁就係之前唔會事先去通知即係有關嘅承建商,亦都有講話即係英文 15 你去形容就係一啲嘅係(English Spoken)嘅(English Spoken)去做嗰 16 啲巡查嘅,係咪? 17 林秀青女士:係。 18 孫靖乾資深大律師:咁我就都想問一問你,就係其實除咗話你唔會事先即係話畀嗰啲嘅承建 19 商知會有嗰個巡查之外,我想問,到你去到嗰個即係現場,即係嗰個叫做--譬如嗰 20 個叫做個工地,又或者好似喺宏福苑嘅情況,咁你就頭先解釋過,你就自己首先會 21 去即係做一啲嘅巡查,咁你會係睇下有冇啲觀察,睇唔睇到有啲嘅可能違反某啲法 22 例嘅情況,然後跟住就視朵需要,你就會聯絡番嗰個承辦商,一齊可能再去了解一 23 啲嘢,或者去提醒佢一啲嘢,頭先你都有咁樣解釋咗。 24 林秀青女士:係。 25 孫靖乾資深大律師:咁我就想問一問你,除此之外,你哋去做巡查嘅時候,如果係到到嗰個 26 階段係會叫埋個承辦商出嚟嘅時候,你哋會唔會話畀佢哋知,嗰個巡查其實個原因 27 係你收到某一個投訴,或者關於某一個方面嘅投訴,會唔會咁樣樣咁--即係咁仔細 28 咁樣去話畀佢知?我想問一問。 29 林秀青女士:唔會嘅,因為我哋根據我哋嗰個內部守則,我哋係唔可以向承建商或者任何人 30 透露我哋嗰次巡查係因應收到投訴而嚟嘅。 31 孫靖乾資深大律師:除咗內部守則,我嘅理解係咪都有呢個法例上都係有一個相關嘅一個條 32 文? 33 林秀青女士:係,法例上喺呢個即係安全條例嘅第29 條第(2)裏面,亦都講過公職人員如 34 果我哋係披露咗一啲--即係係因應嗰個投訴而去到做巡查,我哋其實係干犯咗一啲 35 罪行嘅。咁而29(1)係我哋唔可以--即係我哋為咗要保障嗰個投訴人嘅資料,我 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十六天

30 本謄本由Epiq 編製 哋亦都唔可以向任何人透露有關於投訴人嘅身分、資料各樣嘢嘅。 1 孫靖乾資深大律師:好,明白。所以即係話,就算譬如話你係收到某一啲類型嘅投訴,咁你 2 去到嗰個譬如宏福苑,咁你去做嗰個巡查嘅時候,其實你就--頭先有解釋過,你就 3 唔會去披露,即係話譬如係因為接受到某一方面嘅投訴,你就會其實都係唔同方面 4 關於職安健嘅嘢你都會去睇嘅,係咪? 5 林秀青女士:係,正確。 6 孫靖乾資深大律師:係。咁當然,收到投訴內容,你就算唔一定話畀承辦商知,你哋自己會 7 唔會都係會針對個投訴內容嘅範圍會去睇清楚啲嘅? 8 林秀青女士:必定會係。 9 孫靖乾資深大律師:好。第二樣嘢就係頭先有解釋過就話,針對宏福苑,你有講過話平均嚟 10 講,一般嘅情況就係可能係個零兩個月就會做一個巡查,但係呢個其實我想問一 11 問,其實係咪即係話,你係會定期都會有一啲嘅巡查係咁樣嘅措施?係咪咁嘅意 12 思? 13 林秀青女士:其實係即係根據機制,我哋定期係都會有個巡查嘅,就算係收唔收到投訴都 14 好,我哋都會因應個機制,睇番嗰個地盤嘅大細、佢個人數同埋佢嗰個性質,我哋 15 就定番嗰個巡查嗰個時段嘅,即係可能有啲係要一至兩個月,有啲可能係耐啲,有 16 啲可能即係譬如係吊棚嗰啲,更加要快,我哋要可能兩個禮拜之內就要去做處理㗎 17 嘞。 18 孫靖乾資深大律師:咁你頭先都解釋過,就針對宏福苑嚟講,其實就係密過原本,即係其實 19 最後係平均嚟講可能大約一個月一次? 20 林秀青女士:係。 21 孫靖乾資深大律師:係。咁你都解釋過有十六次嘅巡查,同埋有一次就係一個加強嘅一個巡 22 查,可唔可以講一講畀我哋知嗰個加強個巡查嘅嗰個原因係乜嘢,或者係會點樣 23 做? 24 林秀青女士:係,因應收到好多嘅投訴,其實就我哋都主動做咗另外一次加強嘅巡查嘅,嗰 25 次唔係特別係去處理一啲投訴,而係因為我哋頭嗰--由7 月至到9 月期間,我哋都 26 不停咁收到有啲居民嘅投訴,咁嗰次係我哋主動落去宏福苑嗰度做一啲視察,睇下 27 有冇一啲相關投訴嘅事項發生嘅。咁而當時,我哋都係見到有工人喺嗰度搭建一啲 28 竹棚架,咁我哋都特別留意,睇下佢哋有冇用一啲防墮措施咁樣嘅,咁我哋都好細 29 心觀察咗一輪之後,就都發現佢哋都係有用番嗰個防墮設施。咁就至於喺食煙方 30 面,我哋其實都有作出觀察嘅,但係都冇見到嗰次巡查裏面有工人喺地盤裏面食 31 煙。 32 孫靖乾資深大律師:好,我淨係針對嗰個食煙,你作出觀察,可唔可以譬如話講講,譬如嗰 33 一次,即係個加強巡查,咁你會係喺啲咩嘢位置會去睇一睇有冇工人食煙嘅情況? 34 林秀青女士:我哋會喺地下嗰度望下,即係睇到如果有發現有工人嘅時候,我哋就會用相機 35 嗰啲去(English Spoken)近佢嗰個位置,睇下佢當時做嘢係工作安唔安全, 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十六天

31 本謄本由Epiq 編製 佢有冇使用一啲合適嘅個人防護裝備,從而都亦都會睇到--即係睇下佢有冇食煙咁 1 樣。 2 孫靖乾資深大律師:咁呢個係針對其中一座定係話係可能整個屋苑定係點樣樣? 3 林秀青女士:整個屋苑嘅。 4 孫靖乾資深大律師:好。跟住我就想再問一問,就係頭先李大律師都有問到你其中一個關於 5 即係宏福苑嘅投訴,咁就有講到話最屘就亦都有將一啲嘅情況就同番ICU 去講。咁 6 我就想你睇一睇有兩個地方,第一個就係你未同ICU 去講番之前,就睇一睇呢個 7 D1/第1500 頁,咁呢個係關於嗰個1823 個投訴,咁呢度我就可能我讀一讀畀你 8 聽,就話「喺接獲經獨立審查組轉介關於竹棚架嘅安全嘅事宜之後」,就話「本處 9 係已派員到有關嘅工作地點進行突擊嘅巡查,亦都向相關負責人發出書面嘅警告, 10 提醒佢哋係一定要遵守呢個職業安全同埋健康嘅法例,同埋採取適當嘅預防措施, 11 而勞工處亦都會繼續密切監察上述工作地點嗰個安全情況,以確保工人嘅工作安全 12 同埋健康」。 13 呢度我就想好特別地問一問你,其實關於嗰個竹棚架嘅安全嘅事宜,其實呢個 14 係淨係屬於勞工處嘅範圍,或者淨係屬於譬如ICU,定係你覺得係兩個部門都可能 15 係會有相關嘅跟進嘅? 16 林秀青女士:我覺得兩個部門都有相關嘅。因為其實勞工處就主要睇番工人嘅安全,咁而我 17 哋就就住公眾安全方面,就應該係交畀可能其他部門去負責咁樣。 18 孫靖乾資深大律師:明白,換言之即係話就算勞工處針對呢個竹棚架嘅安全,佢係做咗一啲 19 嘅跟進嘅行為之後,你覺得需唔需要都將呢樣嘢係可能叫--譬如話喺呢個case, 20 喺呢個宏福苑嚟講,需唔需要都叫呢個ICU 亦都要係同步地都係要做一啲嘅跟進 21 嘅? 22 林秀青女士:係需要嘅。 23 孫靖乾資深大律師:咁我就想你睇埋就係--如果係咁,就睇一睇番頭先李大律師同你睇過, 24 就係D1/1162 嘅。咁呢個就頭先李大律師嘅講法就話,可能係ICU 即係拖埋你哋 25 呢個勞工處落水。咁或者對你哋公平啲起見,佢咁樣講話佢拖埋勞工處落水呢樣 26 嘢,你覺得其實勞工處係針對個譬如竹棚架,係咪都有責任去處理? 27 林秀青女士:有責任。 28 孫靖乾資深大律師:好。咁好,咁你亦都喺呢度亦都係提醒番呢個ICU,就係有關一啲譬如 29 話係嗰個(English Spoken),即係嗰啲竹裏面可能發覺有啲裂痕等等,咁你 30 亦都講到,呢度有可能係影響到嗰個(English Spoken)。我可能再問你再解 31 釋多一次,即係如果你呢度寫番封信畀ICU,呢度其實最主要嗰個原因係啲乜嘢? 32 林秀青女士:最主要原因就係想佢哋都留意番,如果竹棚架嗰個有個穩定性嘅問題嘅時候, 33 佢都可能會有啲公眾安全會涉及到嘅,所以都希望佢哋可以留意番喺呢方面嘅--關 34 於公眾方面嘅安全。 35 孫靖乾資深大律師:明白。跟住我就再想問多你一個問題,就係頭先李大律師就同你講就, 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十六天

32 本謄本由Epiq 編製 或者我哋可能譬如睇一睇D1/972,呢個都係頭先李大律師同你睇過,就係話你哋 1 做咗個巡查之外,其中有一次就作為一個例子,就有將嗰個建築地盤個視察報告書 2 就發番畀嗰個嘅--即係嗰個承建商? 3 林秀青女士:係。 4 孫靖乾資深大律師:係,咁你見到其實呢度就係喺嗰個關於嗰個參閱手冊編號C251 嗰度, 5 就有講到,即係話如果個地盤裏面係使用到一啲易燃嘅液體等等,就必須要採取一 6 啲步驟去禁止吸煙,同埋唔可以使用呢個無遮蓋嘅燈火。 7 咁呢度其實頭先你都有解釋過,就係其實淨係如果係工人食煙本身,就唔足以 8 係話係違法,或者令到你哋去執法,你仲要睇埋地盤裏面有冇係使用到一啲易燃嘅 9 液體等等,係咪? 10 林秀青女士:係。 11 孫靖乾資深大律師:係。咁頭先李大律師就跟住亦都有問過你就話,雖然佢知道遲啲諗住會 12 可能修例,就話喺地盤裏面禁止食煙。但係佢就話,但係如果你現場你睇唔到人食 13 煙嘅話,你都做唔到任何嘢嘅話,咁就算喺新嗰個法例底下,你都冇乜嘢可以做得 14 到。咁主席頭先亦都有問過你一個問題,但係我見你就未有機會去解一解釋嘅,就 15 係話其實針對嗰個(English Spoken),即係個承辦商嗰度,如果喺新嗰個修 16 例嘅情況下,係咪會有一啲嘢可以針對嗰個承辦商本身,唔係淨係嗰個建築工人, 17 呢個你會唔會都可以--你會唔會知道? 18 林秀青女士:係,如果修訂咗呢個《建築地盤(安全)規例》之後,如果地盤係全面禁煙嘅 19 時候,咁其實承建商有個責任去確保工人唔會喺嗰個地盤食煙嘅,咁假若就算我哋 20 同事去到巡查嘅時候,見唔到有工人食煙都好,咁當--可以憑藉一啲居民或者其他 21 人提供嘅相片,我哋都可以有足夠嘅證據就將嗰個事件去作出一個檢控嘅。咁當時 22 可能就--即係如果修例之後,就可能即係如果有一啲相片嘅時候,就可以對呢個承 23 建商作出檢討,佢違反咗職安健嘅法例。 24 孫靖乾資深大律師:又或者我再舉多個例子,即係譬如如果假如修咗例之後,就算你唔係現 25 場捉到一啲嘅工人食煙,如果你見到佢個工地裏面係滿地煙頭,或者個管理措施好 26 明顯係不善嘅時候,你認為喺修例之後,針對呢個承辦商係咪都應該可以有啲嘢係 27 可以做得到? 28 林秀青女士:係,應該都可以有一啲顯示到佢喺嗰個管理地盤禁煙方面嗰個力度有夠--足唔 29 足夠嘅。 30 孫靖乾資深大律師:好。最後就我哋睇到而家田個建築地盤嗰個視察報告,純粹想同你去確 31 認番。頭先你有講過,就話最左手面就有一個叫做第一同埋第二個部分嘅。 32 林秀青女士:係。 33 孫靖乾資深大律師:其實呢個你應該喺你嗰個證人供詞就係有解釋過嘅,咁就係我可能係叫 34 你去睇番你嗰個證人供詞,喺第WS1/358 頁,如果我哋就去到最下面嗰個註腳, 35 註腳2 同註腳3 嗰度,其實係咪即係呢度嗰個註腳係英文,但係佢有講到就話,即 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十六天

33 本謄本由Epiq 編製 係如果係有一啲嘅相關係違反咗一啲嘅譬如可能係嘅法則嘅情況,就會喺嗰個左邊 1 嗰個第一或者第二嗰個欄目嗰度就會係即係寫上一個剔號? 2 林秀青女士:係。 3 孫靖乾資深大律師:係。但係頭先我哋見到個報告就冇呢個剔號,即係話你可能冇發現佢係 4 真係有一啲明顯違反嘅情況? 5 林秀青女士:係,正確。 6 孫靖乾資深大律師:係,但係你哋嗰個做法就係,你都會有啲相關嘅規定,咁你係會提示番 7 嗰個承辦商,等佢哋去注意? 8 林秀青女士:係,冇錯。 9 孫靖乾資深大律師:係,好,唔該晒。 10 主席,我冇其他嘅問題。 11 陸啟康法官:有冇覆... 12 李澍桓大律師:沒有覆問。 13 陸啟康法官:冇覆問,okay,唔該晒你,林小姐,多謝你今日出席呢個聽證會作供。 14

15 12 時04 分時任勞工處分區職業安全主任(行動科)(小型裝修及維修工程第二分處)證人林秀 16 青女士作供完畢 17

18 12 時05 分勞工處高級分區職業安全主任(1)(行動科)(新界東及觀塘區)證人李萬邦先生 19 開始作供 20

21 李澍桓大律師:主席,下一位證人係李萬邦先生。 22 好,係,李先生。 23 李萬邦先生:係。 24 李澍桓大律師:或者請你先企起身,讀出你面前嘅嗰個聲明詞。 25 李萬邦先生:本人李萬邦聲明,本人所作的證供,盡本人所知、所悉及所信,均屬真實。 26 李澍桓大律師:請坐。我哋知道李先生你喺09 年加入勞工處,係咪? 27 李萬邦先生:係,冇錯。 28 李澍桓大律師:咁而家你嘅職級係咪應該就係高級分區職業安全主任? 29 李萬邦先生:冇錯。 30 李澍桓大律師:而係主要負責嘅區份就係新界東同埋觀塘區? 31 李萬邦先生:冇錯。 32 李澍桓大律師:所以喺2025 年11 月嘅時候,宏福苑我相信都係屬於你轄下管轄嘅一個範 33 圍,係咪? 34 李萬邦先生:我2025 年12 月1 號調任到嚟而家呢個職位嘅。 35 李澍桓大律師:係。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十六天

34 本謄本由Epiq 編製 李萬邦先生:係。 1 李澍桓大律師:即係其實大火之前,嗰個時間你就未接觸宏福苑? 2 李萬邦先生:未調任,係,未調任。 3 李澍桓大律師:明白。咁我亦都知道你就住今次嘅呢個委員會調查,你就提供咗三份嘅證人 4 陳述書畀我哋嘅? 5 李萬邦先生:係。 6 李澍桓大律師:咁我相信入面嘅內容都係以你理解,同埋相信係真實嘅嘢而講出嚟嘅,係 7 咪? 8 李萬邦先生:冇錯。 9 李澍桓大律師:咁我或者咁講,好多關於直接宏福苑嘅嘢,其實你就未必有第一身嘅知悉, 10 係咪? 11 李萬邦先生:大火之前,係。 12 李澍桓大律師:因為我相信你都係--其實主要都係監督下面嘅工作,而正如你所講,大火之 13 前其實就唔係你負責嗰個區份嘅? 14 李萬邦先生:冇錯。 15 李澍桓大律師:所以我諗我不如問番你一啲一般性喺個政策上,或者你哋一啲執法嘅一啲大 16 方向嘅問題,好嘛? 17 李萬邦先生:好,好。 18 李澍桓大律師:咁剛才你都有聽過林女士嘅作供,係咪? 19 李萬邦先生:冇錯。 20 李澍桓大律師:可唔可以咁講?即係如果以機制上面嚟講,當時如果你係宏福苑嗰個屬於你 21 管轄範圍嘅話,即係如果林女士都仲喺你做緊佢嗰個職位嘅話,其實佢就照道理應 22 該要向你做匯報嘅,係咪? 23 李萬邦先生:冇錯。 24 李澍桓大律師:即係嗰個編制上面嚟講? 25 李萬邦先生:係。 26 李澍桓大律師:頭先我哋有講過其中有幾個唔同嘅巡查方式嘅。 27 李萬邦先生:係。 28 李澍桓大律師:咁我唔再問你。你亦都聽到林女士所講,解釋唔同嘅情況有唔同嘅巡查嘅一 29 啲要求,就住嗰方面,林女士所作嘅證供,你有冇嘢想補充或者更正? 30 李萬邦先生:我有嘢想補充。 31 李澍桓大律師:好。 32 李萬邦先生:係,咁其實啱啱林女士講咗有幾個巡查,咁其實中間有一個巡查係我哋叫做特 33 別執法行動。 34 李澍桓大律師:係。 35 李萬邦先生:就喺2025 年2 月21 號嗰度進行嘅。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十六天

35 本謄本由Epiq 編製 李澍桓大律師:係。 1 李萬邦先生:其實嗰個... 2 李澍桓大律師:呢個英文就我理解就係所謂(English Spoken),係咪? 3 李萬邦先生:冇錯,冇錯。其實呢個(English Spoken)就嗰個落去巡查嗰個,我哋所 4 涉及嘅人數嘅幫辦係較多,同埋就當時巡查嗰個同事就唔係林女士嗰team 人去做 5 嘅,即係我哋就搵咗另一個寫字樓嘅同事都落去呢個即係宏福苑呢個地盤嗰度做巡 6 查嘅。 7 李澍桓大律師:係,我嘅理解係咪即係頭先我如果冇理解錯,呢個所謂(English 8 Spoken)仲要似乎唔係淨係針對一個屋苑,而係應該一個--係咪就係剛才講全港 9 性... 10 李萬邦先生:全港性,係。 11 李澍桓大律師:...針對一啲高危項目而即係針對性地做嘅一啲巡查嚟,係咪? 12 李萬邦先生:係,由我哋總部去即係發起咁樣樣。 13 李澍桓大律師:咁我相信林女士剛才都畀咗一啲例子我哋,譬如高空工作嗰啲咁嘅情況,我 14 呢度唔重複,好嘛? 15 李萬邦先生:唔,唔,好。 16 陸啟康法官:我可唔可以問一問? 17 李萬邦先生:係。 18 陸啟康法官:搵另外一個team 去做,係因為嗰個編制上需要搵另外一個team 係去做,抑 19 或其實係有另外一個--或者有啲其他嘅原因,因為係唔想--都好似有少少覆檢咁嘅 20 情況,即係對於原本巡查嗰個係一個-- 另外一個覆檢,即係好似(English 21 Spoken)咁嘅理由? 22 李萬邦先生:主席,係嘅,其實兩個情況都有,即係有個覆檢嘅情況,同埋係其實嗰team 23 人,即係講緊2 月21 號落去做巡查嗰team 人,其實佢都有個(English 24 Spoken)係去睇電力安全,即係對於工人嘅職安健嘅電力構成威脅,佢哋特別係 25 有啲同事有牌,係可以去度電咁樣樣。 26 咁其實我都想再補充多一個(English Spoken)就係,其實我哋做一般巡 27 查,就我哋會由啲比較前線嘅同事,我哋一級職業安全主任同埋二級職業安全主任 28 去做巡查,咁其實因應呢個宏福苑,我哋收到嘅投訴比較多,其實就喺10 月嗰陣 29 時就由分區職業安全主任,即係一個前線嘅管理人員,佢都親自帶隊,就係林女士 30 親身去帶隊嗰一次,咁就其實落去嗰個地盤嗰度做個巡查,即係好似主席話齋,係 31 有個即係(English Spoken)番,其實究竟啲同事係即係叫做一個督導人員, 32 親身去帶隊咁樣樣。 33 李澍桓大律師:係。 34 李萬邦先生:係。 35 李澍桓大律師:我就住巡查個模式或者唔同嘅方式、唔同層次,你仲有冇嘢想補充? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十六天

36 本謄本由Epiq 編製 李萬邦先生:冇,係。 1 李澍桓大律師:如果冇嘅話,就跳落去... 2 李萬邦先生:好,好,好。 3 李澍桓大律師:...下一個可能你會比較一般性地會更加幫到我哋嘅,就係一啲當巡查之 4 後,發覺可能有一啲違規嘅情況嘅時候,勞工處可以採取嘅一啲所謂執法手段,好 5 嘛? 6 李萬邦先生:係。 7 李澍桓大律師:咁我知道你都有講過,其實整體嚟講有四大類嘅執法方式嘅。 8 李萬邦先生:係。 9 李澍桓大律師:第一個我相信最嚴重,就係--或者最所謂高階嘅一個處理方法,就係對承建 10 商或者相關人士進行一個刑事嘅檢控,係咪? 11 李萬邦先生:冇錯。 12 李澍桓大律師:第二個,次一個檔次可能就係做一個叫做--發出一個叫做暫時停工通知書。 13 李萬邦先生:冇錯。 14 李澍桓大律師:英文就應該你哋叫係(English Spoken),係咪? 15 李萬邦先生:冇錯。 16 李澍桓大律師:咁就呢個都算係有嚴重嘅一個手法嚟,係咪? 17 李萬邦先生:嚴重嘅。 18 李澍桓大律師:因為其實我哋--如果我嘅理解冇錯,就有陣時如果譬如包括你地盤譬如發生 19 --我哋知道有啲譬如天秤倒塌,有嚴重嘅傷亡意外,好多時勞工處就會立即出呢個 20 停工通知書,任何嘢都唔可以做? 21 李萬邦先生:我哋會停--即係我哋可能會停某個工序,或者會停使用一啲物料咁樣,但係即 22 係停晒成個地盤都有機會嘅,係。 23 李澍桓大律師:嗄,即係因為呢個點解我話都嚴重,因為成個地盤,尤其是如果整個地盤要 24 停工嘅話,即係其實嗰個如果用金錢計嘅損失就可以都幾嚴重,係咪? 25 李萬邦先生:係。 26 李澍桓大律師:咁第三個,就叫做發出一啲叫做敦促改善通知書,(English 27 Spoken),係咪? 28 李萬邦先生:係。 29 李澍桓大律師:咁就話發覺有啲違規嘅情況,不過就畀個善意嘅提醒佢,叫佢哋去做一啲改 30 善嘅工夫,係咪? 31 李萬邦先生:係嘅,但係呢個通知書佢如果違反嘅話,有個法律後果嘅,係。 32 李澍桓大律師:因為一般嚟講,呢個所謂你哋叫IN 嘅情況,就係會有個限期畀佢嘅,係 33 咪? 34 李萬邦先生:係,係。 35 李澍桓大律師:就如果限期-- 我哋之前亦都林小姐有交代過,有陣時會有啲所謂叫做 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十六天

37 本謄本由Epiq 編製 (English Spoken)嘅(English Spoken)嘅。 1 李萬邦先生:係。 2 李澍桓大律師:我相信就係針對如果我出完呢個改善通知書,我哋再落去睇,你都冇改善嘅 3 話,咁就可能會有更加嚴重嘅後果,因為根據法例,呢個本身唔去遵從呢個IN 都 4 屬於一個刑事嘅犯法行為嘅,係咪? 5 李萬邦先生:冇錯。 6 李澍桓大律師:最後一個可能係相對地最輕,就叫做發一啲警告信。 7 李萬邦先生:係。 8 李澍桓大律師:同埋我哋有見到就話畀埋一個地盤嘅,或者建築地嘅視察報告書佢,就列出 9 一啲事項叫佢留意咁樣,係咪? 10 李萬邦先生:係,冇錯。 11 李澍桓大律師:所以基本上喺宏福苑嗰個情況入面,你有冇資料話到畀我哋知,其實有冇從 12 來話就任何一啲違規嘅事件,係對承判商或者其他嘅分判商係進行刑事嘅檢控? 13 李萬邦先生:有嘅。 14 李澍桓大律師:有。 15 李萬邦先生:我哋總... 16 李澍桓大律師:係針對啲咩嘢事項? 17 李萬邦先生:針對高空工作,我哋告過大判,即係宏業,同埋告過盈利豐,即係嗰個棚公司 18 嗰度,我哋總共即係加埋就告咗佢三票嘅。 19 李澍桓大律師:係。 20 李萬邦先生:即係出咗三個(English Spoken)。 21 李澍桓大律師:呢個簡單啲嚟講,就應該係關於冇用--即係確保啲工人用安全帶、繫穩繩嗰 22 啲咁樣嘅情況,係咪? 23 李萬邦先生:同埋冇一啲合理步驟去防止工人從高處墮下咁樣。 24 李澍桓大律師:係。我相信就住吸煙嘅情況,我唔重複,似乎就係發出咗頭先第四類所講嘅 25 一啲--或者第三類,即係改善通知書咁樣,係咪? 26 李萬邦先生:吸煙嘅狀況? 27 李澍桓大律師:嗄。 28 李萬邦先生:吸煙狀況冇發出改善通知書,都係出第四類嗰個即係視察報告下面嘅 29 (English Spoken)咁樣。 30 李澍桓大律師:即係提佢... 31 李萬邦先生:即係(English Spoken)咁樣,係。 32 李澍桓大律師:嗄,唔好有人食煙,係咪? 33 李萬邦先生:係。 34 李澍桓大律師:就係咁樣? 35 李萬邦先生:係。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十六天

38 本謄本由Epiq 編製 李澍桓大律師:有一份文件,就我諗就住乜嘢執法方式,其實都唔係話你哋自己即係個人自 1 己決定嘅,咁都有啲--某個程度上有啲指引嘅。 2 李萬邦先生:係。 3 李澍桓大律師:所以如果我帶你睇D1 文件冊/1724 頁,咁我知道勞工處入面都有一個 4 (English Spoken)喺度嘅。 5 李萬邦先生:係。 6 李澍桓大律師:咁日期就23 年11 月13 號發出。 7 李萬邦先生:唔。 8 李澍桓大律師:咁就畀所有所謂職安健嘅部門,咁如果我哋睇個方格下面嗰度,就尤其是最 9 褸屘嗰段,即係最褸屘嗰部分,其實就咁講嘅,我用中文嘅意思就話「所有嘅同 10 事,職安健嘅主任,其實都處方都預計--預期佢哋會使用佢哋嘅專業判決、酌情權 11 同埋常識」。 12 李萬邦先生:係。 13 李澍桓大律師:就去釐定究竟每一樣嘢嗰個輕重,究竟應該要用啲乜嘢嘅罰則去畀佢哋,係 14 咪? 15 李萬邦先生:係。 16 李澍桓大律師:即係呢個就大原則。但係其實我哋再睇落去,就分咗有四個主要唔同嘅類 17 別,就嘗試去講話某一啲情況就應該要用一啲較為嚴厲嘅執法方式嘅。 18 李萬邦先生:係。 19 李澍桓大律師:係咪?譬如我哋跳落去睇後面,即係(A)Group 1 第一組嗰度,我個理解 20 就應該係講緊嘅就係一啲最嚴重嘅情況,係咪? 21 李萬邦先生:係。 22 李澍桓大律師:因為呢度就講到,即係如果有危險嘅工程,會有人即係有機會死亡,嚴重身 23 體受傷嘅風險,如果有呢啲違規嘅情況嘅時候,可能都起碼應該要出一個頭先我哋 24 所講嘅暫時停工通知書,係咪? 25 李萬邦先生:冇錯。 26 李澍桓大律師:咁嚴重啲嘅,可能有證據嘅,就更加要跟進做一個刑事嘅檢控添? 27 李萬邦先生:冇錯。 28 李澍桓大律師:係咪?咁我唔逐個即係段落去講,因為基本上就跟次序,有啲嚴重啲,就做 29 啲嚴重啲嘅手法,相對地冇咁嚴重嘅,就用啲可能較輕嘅處理方式。但係有--之前 30 我唔知你有冇聽過,即係消防助理處長姜世明先生上嚟作供嘅時候,咁就住主席問 31 嘅一個問題,佢都即係做咗一個回應嘅,咁佢就話--即係當主席問佢其實喺大廈維 32 修嘅工程入面,其實都算係火警風險入面即係差唔多係最高㗎嘞,因為除咗即係地 33 盤嘅危險性之外,最重要一個因素,主席都指出就仲有人住吖嘛。 34 李萬邦先生:係。 35 李澍桓大律師:咁姜先生都話,即係今天睇番都同意嘅。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十六天

39 本謄本由Epiq 編製 李萬邦先生:係。 1 李澍桓大律師:咁你今日坐喺度,面對同一個問題,即係你同唔同意維修屋苑嘅嗰啲咁樣嘅 2 大型工程入面,至少就住火災或者火警嗰個層面,你同唔同意都係一個高風險嘅一 3 個情況? 4 李萬邦先生:同意嘅。 5 李澍桓大律師:有其中一個做法... 6 陸啟康法官:我覺得有啲幾奇怪嘅一樣嘢就係,勞工處最主要就係職安健嘅,即係保障工 7 人,但係嗰個嘅火災風險就其實係另外一班人士,即係另外一班可能居住。 8 李萬邦先生:冇錯。 9 陸啟康法官:咁即係政策層面,如果要勞工處去負責呢件事,係咪有啲奇怪? 10 李萬邦先生:我啱啱答李大狀嗰個問題,其實我諗過就係,因為其實對公眾人士構成火險, 11 其實都同樣地可能對工人都構成... 12 陸啟康法官:工人,係。 13 李萬邦先生:係,所以我答李大狀嗰個問題,其實我純粹係從工人角度去諗,都係會有工人 14 即係都有機會牽涉到有火險。 15 陸啟康法官:明白,明白,呢個我絕對理解。 16 李萬邦先生:係。 17 李澍桓大律師:因為當然,即係剛才我哋都有睇過,譬如就住第4 版又好,第5 版又好,嗰 18 個棚架嘅安全工作守則,咁都有提及到一啲即係需要有阻燃嘅一啲要求咁,所以我 19 相信喺勞工處處方政策嘅層面上面,即係你哋都唔係純粹話覺得--首先火災係即係 20 一個簡單,或者完全唔關你哋處方嘅問題嘅一個範疇,係咪? 21 李萬邦先生:係,同意。 22 李澍桓大律師:咁亦都事實上,我哋亦都知道即使喺--即係有陣時啲情況就係,好似你都剛 23 才同意,對工人係一個風險,但係同時間亦都對居民可能都即係分割唔到㗎嘛,係 24 咪? 25 李萬邦先生:構成--同意,同意。 26 李澍桓大律師:事實上我哋今次嘅事件入面亦都知道,的而且確因為宏福苑大火,其實係有 27 工人傷亡。 28 李萬邦先生:同意。 29 李澍桓大律師:咁我哋都起碼聽到有兩個工人要上天台。 30 李萬邦先生:上天台。 31 李澍桓大律師:你都有留意到。 32 陸啟康法官:所以勞工處一定會有責任,但係即係其他部門都可能會有咁嘅責任。 33 李萬邦先生:係,主席。 34 李澍桓大律師:即係我諗唔公道,就如果將呢個責任淨係交畀--防火呢個責任去交晒畀你, 35 即係勞工處,我覺得就不公道嘅。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十六天

40 本謄本由Epiq 編製 李萬邦先生:同意。 1 李澍桓大律師:因為我諗每個部門都應該即係要合力承擔呢一個即係監管嘅角色嘅,可唔可 2 以咁講? 3 李萬邦先生:同--可以咁講。 4 李澍桓大律師:我想了解嘅就係就係站在勞工處,即係你今日坐喺呢度作供,我都只能夠問 5 你關於勞工處嘅嘢。 6 李萬邦先生:係。 7 李澍桓大律師:大家都既然同意其實即係火災風險係高嘅,我哋亦都聽到喺外牆上面,即係 8 雖然話棚架就可能直接歸勞工處管轄嘅一個範疇,但係貼住棚架嘅外牆,其實就我 9 哋知道都長期超過一年咁黐咗一啲所謂易燃嘅發泡膠板嘅。 10 李萬邦先生:係。 11 李澍桓大律師:我想了解下,即係喺勞工處角度,你可唔可以話到畀我哋知,即係就住--雖 12 然話唔係直接放喺棚架上面,但係其實就喺個棚架隔籬,工人上去工作亦都會面對 13 住呢啲發泡膠嘅,因為我哋知道工人其實佢哋嘅講法,就係我要擺啲發泡膠喺度阻 14 止佢損壞啲窗添。 15 李萬邦先生:唔。 16 李澍桓大律師:喺勞工處而家今時今日嘅即係經歷完宏福苑大火之後,你覺得呢毎發泡膠係 17 唔係應該勞工處要考慮納入為你哋都有份參與要管制嘅事項,定還是仍然覺得其實 18 係屬於第二啲部門,建築--即係屋宇署或者ICU 要處理嘅問題呢? 19 李萬邦先生:我自己認為就其實呢啲發泡膠係啲建材嚟嘅,建築物料嚟嘅,其實勞工處即係 20 喺職安健,我哋嘅巡查重點就係睇啲工人嘅工序點樣做嘢,即係安唔安全咁樣,物 21 料就即係唔係我哋嘅巡查重點。即係我哋有機會即係都會牽涉影響到工人職安健嘅 22 當然,但係即係你話相對上如果去睇嘅話,其實我哋個(English Spoken)係 23 按嗰個工序,即係嗰啲工人做嘅工序多啲。 24 李澍桓大律師:所以我個理解,就係處方似乎而家嘅睇法,就係即係個發泡膠有啲咩嘢=-係 25 唔係阻燃,有咩嘢標準,有啲咩嘢要求,你哋就覺得當然即係就未必應該係要由勞 26 工處去監管,係咪? 27 李萬邦先生:係。 28 李澍桓大律師:但係就住正如我剛才所講,喺個棚架上面工人工作每日望到嘅,就係面對住 29 一啲都事實上係危險嘅即係物料。 30 李萬邦先生:係。 31 李澍桓大律師:我相信即係同棚架上面擺幾十罐天拿水喺度一樣,未必由勞工處去管天拿水 32 嗰個易燃定阻燃嘅要求,但係佢擺喺度就係會構成一個有機會火災嘅風險喺度,係 33 咪? 34 李萬邦先生:係。 35 李澍桓大律師:所以喺就住尤其是我哋成日都睇到嘅嗰個所謂《禁煙令》嗰個情況,客觀地 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十六天

41 本謄本由Epiq 編製 我哋睇到有好多證據似乎真係有工人食煙嘅,雖然我明白就住檢控嗰方面係唔係咪 1 足夠,就咁去呈交呢啲相未必足夠嘅。 2 李萬邦先生:係。 3 李澍桓大律師:但係如果而家睇番又係嘗試去反省,做好啲將來。你見到而家工人會食煙, 4 而喺棚架上面就算唔係你哋規管都好,其實係有火警風險喺度嘅,會唔會而家覺得 5 如果當時可能有必要出一個所謂叫《禁煙令》去確保,即係點樣執法係一件事,起 6 碼就出咗個命令唔准佢哋食煙,會唔會係一個可行嘅方法呢?而家睇番轉頭。 7 李萬邦先生:其實話棚架上面有個火險,跟住我哋而家睇番轉頭去出一個《禁煙令》,真係 8 因為其實嗰個我哋而家53,即係仲未改,我哋《建築地盤(安全)規例》第53, 9 其實係講緊即係要有一啲(English Spoken)嘅(English Spoken),或 10 者一啲(English Spoken)咁樣樣。咁我哋當時嘅理解,就其實發泡膠就唔係 11 一啲(English Spoken),即係係(English Spoken )嘅,但係唔係一啲 12 (English Spoken)嘅東西,所以即係如果用而家--即係用番大火之前嘅角度 13 去睇,其實都未必係可以出到個《禁煙令》。 14 李澍桓大律師:值唔值得處方都去做考慮檢視係唔係應該可能對於執法程序守法或者政策去 15 做一個考慮係唔係應該要修改,提高加大嗰個範圍,你覺得值唔值得去做? 16 李萬邦先生:我因悉處方其實而家已經就住53 嗰度,我哋就即係唔使更多顧慮,唔使咁多 17 (English Spoken),就即係全面去禁煙,就係一見到有人食煙,我哋就即刻 18 係可以提出檢控,告工人又好,告承建商又好,就唔使再去理究竟嗰樣嘢係 19 (English Spoken )定(English Spoken ),我覺得即係呢個方向係好 20 嘅,對於我哋前線執法者嚟講。 21 李澍桓大律師:當然我剛才都問咗林女士,就住執法即係禁煙呢樣嘢將來如果修例嘅話。咁 22 我都想畀個機會你,即係我諗其實對於前線嘅同事係乎的而且確係有個困難喺度 23 嘅,因為就算你有呢個修例又好,禁煙亦都好,似乎你哋暫時嘅睇法都係即係要眼 24 見為準,見到有人食煙先至會採取行動? 25 李萬邦先生:除咗見到有人食煙,仲要係見到附近有啲(English Spoken)嘅東西,兩 26 樣嘢結合形成咗一個(English Spoken),我哋先可以再執行行動。 27 李澍桓大律師:如果喺地盤入面,佢純粹係行咗入個地盤範圍,又只係一笪空地,即係我哋 28 嘅理解好多時地盤入面,一入去就有啲水喉噴下泥頭車,清下啲泥。 29 李萬邦先生:係。 30 李澍桓大律師:喺嗰個範圍食煙冇乜(English Spoken)(易燃)嘅嘢,即係話其實都 31 喺你嘅睇法都未必屬於違反個《禁煙令》或者嗰個新法例個喎? 32 李萬邦先生:新法例就會係違反,因為唔需要做(English Spoken),即係以舊法例嘅 33 框架之下,其實呢樣嘢我哋只可以即係去勸喻,或者即係叫承建商去--即係用我哋 34 嘅壓力去逼承建商去做一啲(English Spoken),或者做一啲家規去規範啲工 35 人嘅吸煙行為。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十六天

42 本謄本由Epiq 編製 李澍桓大律師:即係剛才大律師問你,同時你亦都有提出過嘅,新法例唔多唔少好似頭頂上 1 多一把刀畀個承建商嘅。 2 李萬邦先生:係。 3 李澍桓大律師:但係我相信--我希望處方都要考慮其中一樣嘢,似乎去到最後無論呢把刀幾 4 大把都好,似乎暫時勞工處嘅講法都仲係要,因為就算你話我修改咗法例,似乎你 5 哋嘅講法都係我要睇到人食煙,你先至能夠話畀佢知違反咗個規例? 6 李萬邦先生:都唔一定,其實見到煙頭,即係有個(English Spoken),其實我哋已人 7 係可以即係去攞呢啲咁嘅證據去... 8 李澍桓大律師:其實就係呢樣嘢,剛才林女士所講,我就係有啲唔明。 9 李萬邦先生:係。 10 李澍桓大律師:其實如果係咁樣同而家你修唔修例,你去到宏福苑見到有煙頭咁都一樣,即 11 係如果你今日仲有宏福苑,今日去到見到煙頭,有新法例都可能面對一個問題,我 12 唔知邊個食嗰啲煙? 13 李萬邦先生:其實如果即係有個框架,就即係我哋見到有煙頭,但係嗰啲煙頭附近有啲 14 (English Spoken)嘅嘢,其實我哋都會執法,即係做更多嘅嘢。 15 李澍桓大律師:我諗就住呢個問議題,我交番畀你處方自己去考慮係唔係需要研究執法或者 16 舉證嗰啲方面,因為尤其是律政署嘅同事。 17 李萬邦先生:係。 18 李澍桓大律師:我諗我反為想問你另外一個議題,就係關於呢個生口呢樣嘢。 19 李萬邦先生:係。 20 李澍桓大律師:好唔好?因為如果根據有關嘅條例,即係你哋都有提供過畀我哋,喺 21 D1/186 頁,就係第59I 章有《建築地盤(安全)條例》入面,其實如果第54 條 22 嘅話,我哋睇到基本上呢個講法就係話負責建築地盤承建商就需要使設置喺建築地 23 盤嘅所有走火通道同埋滅火器都要保持良好嘅狀況,避免受阻礙。跟住如果第(2) 24 段,就有講「任何人不得故意更改、損害、阻礙或者以其他方法損壞上述走火通道 25 或滅火器具。」 26 李萬邦先生:係。 27 李澍桓大律師:好,所以就住呢一方面,我哋知道喺聽證會入面聽到,就有人開咗一啲後樓 28 梯,走火通道開咗一啲叫做生口。 29 李萬邦先生:係。 30 李澍桓大律師:生口基本上冇特別嘅意義,除咗唯一個作用就係方便工人出入個棚架,爬少 31 幾層,你有聽過呢部分嘅證據? 32 李萬邦先生:有聽過,因為我想補充少少。 33 李澍桓大律師:係。 34 李萬邦先生:其實喺職安健角度嚟講,即係其實開啲生口,對工人嘅職安健都即係有個作 35 用,即係(English Spoken)譬如個棚架大火或者個棚架有倒塌危險,咁啲工 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十六天

43 本謄本由Epiq 編製 人都要走,即係喺外牆嗰度,咁你冇理由啲工人要爬番上天台或者落地下去走。 1 李澍桓大律師:即係我冇理解錯嘅就係勞工處覺得喺後樓梯開呢啲生口,其實唔屬於頭先我 2 講嗰個法例入面即係違法,呢個係第一,我想問第一個問題,不違法,係唔係你嘅 3 睇法? 4 李萬邦先生:冇違反《職安健法例》裏面。 5 李澍桓大律師:好,第二,你哋甚至乎建議咁樣做法添,因為佢爬少幾層,你嘅講法就係風 6 險就低啲? 7 李萬邦先生:我哋冇建議佢嘅,即係我哋個睇法就覺得呢個生口有佢嘅作用。 8 李澍桓大律師:但係邏輯上面唔係如果你能夠用番晒,棚架我哋知道當然即係有啲低啲,有 9 啲高啲,所以點解法例上面有要求佢哋要戴安全繩、安全帶,要有一啲獨音嘅繫穩 10 點,再有一個即係加強嘅一啲防火措施? 11 李萬邦先生:係。 12 李澍桓大律師:如果呢啲措施做足,無論佢爬三層定三十層,佢跟足嘅話,照道理都應該係 13 安全,喺冇火警情況之下,同唔同意? 14 李萬邦先生:都唔同意嘅,因為其實我哋個即係《工作守則》裏面都有講,其實就工人爬棚 15 我哋就即係唔容許嘅,即係爬個棚架。 16 李澍桓大律師:係。 17 李萬邦先生:亦都喺一個(English Spoken),其實都講工人爬棚都有個危險性,因為 18 其實每一個棚即係個level 70、80cm,個工人即係要咁樣一路爬,其實都幾 19 (English Spoken),佢有機會即係都喺爬嘅當中會從高處墮下。 20 李澍桓大律師:所以我想搞清楚,因為我唔想曲解咗你嘅意思。 21 李萬邦先生:係,係。 22 李澍桓大律師:勞工處起碼即係喺李生你嘅角度而家講法,就係承建商喺走火後樓梯開生 23 口,每五層開一個,喺宏福苑嘅例子入面,站在勞工處嘅角度係冇問題嘅? 24 李萬邦先生:開幾多個或者咩嘢形式點樣開,就勞工處冇一個即係特定嘅標準。 25 李澍桓大律師:我唔想講有冇特定嘅標準,因為你剛才個講法就係話其實似乎係有個作用 26 添,因為你嘅講法就工人唔應該爬棚架添,如果係咁嘅,就五層都唔應該爬個囉 27 喎? 28 李萬邦先生:即係嗰個情況就係唔可以爬,即係因為其實嗰個《工作守則》裏面都講話唔可 29 以爬棚架。 30 李澍桓大律師:如果係咁,係唔係最好--其實宏福苑為例,三十一層,就每一層都開個生 31 口? 32 李萬邦先生:其實佢棚與棚,每一個棚架樓層中間,其實佢應該有啲即係密啲嘅--即係佢唔 33 係一格格嘅棚,佢應該有有密少少個竹係愛嚟即係for 佢上落幾層咁樣樣。 34 李澍桓大律師:但係因為我哋知道,客觀地點解我要提出呢樣嘢,似乎有消防嘅證人都講, 35 其中一個佢哋面對救援嘅困難,就係因為啲生口亦都冇--即係簡單啲嚟講,就係喺 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十六天

44 本謄本由Epiq 編製 嗰啲生口入面有火有煙,攻咗入個走火通道入面,所以引致到有火災,今次宏福苑 1 入面係有個救援嘅困難喺度,所以點解生口係其中今次我哋都關注嘅議題。 2 李萬邦先生:係。 3 李澍桓大律師:咁就係譬如... 4 陸啟康法官:即係咁講,我哋未聽專家報告,不過即係似乎個初步我哋亦都理解,其實個生 5 口係令到嗰啲煙係由出面係入咗去大廈,令到居民嗰個逃生口即係逃生唔到。 6 李萬邦先生:係。 7 陸啟康法官:令到嗰啲煙亦都好快攻入去嗰啲除咗走廊之外,係攻入屋嘅。 8 李萬邦先生:係。 9 陸啟康法官:所以其實如果咁講就係帶出一個好大嘅問題,如果我聽你咁講。即係你話其實 10 係唔係即係工人嘅利益同埋住嘅人利益相對係有衝突嘅呢?咁就帶出咗另外一個好 11 大嘅問題。即係話其實工人就唔應該擒棚,咁佢點樣出去呢?或者佢點樣由一層去 12 到另外一層呢?咁呢個真係一個好大嘅問題,如果係咁嘅話,我哋應該點樣去解決 13 呢個問題呢? 14 李萬邦先生:主席,其實我想講就係在於職安健法例裏面,其實佢開呢啲生口冇干犯到職安 15 健法例裏面嘅要求,但係佢有冇因為開生口而去干犯其他法例嘅要求,就即係而家 16 大火之後,我哋即係得悉佢應該干犯咗其他即係法例。 17 陸啟康法官:我明白。但係我擔心一樣嘢就係你頭先所講,其實開生口係好,即係喺個職安 18 健嘅角度佢冇違反法例,但係似乎你就話嗰個(English Spoken)話,就唔應 19 該--我唔知即係。咁我諗你如果同職安健,咁佢爬棚就因為你要有個(English 20 Spoken),即係有嗰個繩要整住。 21 李萬邦先生:係。 22 陸啟康法官:你爬棚就一定要不停咁喺度扣,或者不停咁樣樣,咁點解決呢個問題呢? 23 李萬邦先生:其實爬棚唔係畀佢由--即係爬一個好長時間嘅棚,同埋即係嗰個(English 24 Spoken)其實就講嗰個棚架,即係其實一般嚟講嗰個距離就大概兩呎至三呎喥, 25 即係70cm 至80cm 喥。其實一般嚟講,而家出面建築地盤嗰啲棚架嗰啲做法,就 26 係佢如果真係要上落樓層,佢一係就有啲斜梯,即係喺個棚架嗰度佢就有啲斜嘅 27 棚,等佢好似樓梯咁樣上去上一層,一係就喺個棚嗰度就整啲密啲嘅竹,咁佢就唔 28 使每次爬 70 、80 咁樣,佢可能爬二三十,即係一個短啲嘅(English 29 Spoken),咁佢就可以爬。 30 陸啟康法官:所以其實點都好,其實佢唔應該爬三十層樓? 31 李萬邦先生:係。 32 陸啟康法官:係咪?因為你就算用呢個方法,你爬三十層樓,由上面落嚟或者下低上去都唔 33 應該嘅,咁一定要有生口? 34 李萬邦先生:即係我哋都係重申番,即係其實嗰個生口冇干犯我哋即係職安健嘅法例,但係 35 其實佢開咗呢樣嘢,對於個工人要走嘅時候,其實有個作用喺度。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十六天

45 本謄本由Epiq 編製 陸啟康法官:我都係高院,但係你可唔可以畀嗰個高院個案例我睇睇呢?你哋應該有嘅,係 1 咪? 2 李萬邦先生:有嘅,有嘅。 3 陸啟康法官:或者你食完飯畀我睇睇,好唔好? 4 李萬邦先生:好,好。 5 李澍桓大律師:另一個即係剛才我想問到嘅,除咗即係生口呢個問題,就係當然剛才有提及 6 過棚網嗰個問題。 7 李萬邦先生:係。 8 李澍桓大律師:林女士都講即係佢哋就冇一個專業嘅知識去理解究竟嗰啲棚網,就算你畀張 9 證書佢睇,究竟個棚網係低燃定係阻燃定係點樣,佢都講唔到嘅。 10 李萬邦先生:係。 11 李澍桓大律師:我想了解下,即係純粹喺政策上或者將來嗰個處事上面,勞工處點樣去即係 12 解決呢個問題呢?因為好明顯棚架嘅《安全工作守則》就有一個咁樣嘅要求,所以 13 喺某個程度上呢個係你哋嘅責任,要去確保保護幕,包括棚網係用一啲阻燃嘅物料 14 嘅,係咪? 15 李萬邦先生:係。 16 李澍桓大律師:但係如果前線嘅同事又冇呢一個咁樣嘅專業資格,咁畀咗張證書佢,佢都未 17 必識上面嘅嘢嘅話,其實係唔係未必做得好你哋所講《安全守則》入面要求同事做 18 嘅嘢呢? 19 李萬邦先生:其實以我理解,就而家部門亦都即係應屋宇署嘅要求,即係我哋有一team 人 20 就已經成立咗,就係同屋宇署一齊去抽辦,即係攞去啲棚網嗰啲辦,係攞去lab 嗰 21 度驗咁樣。 22 李澍桓大律師:但係當然,今次呢個日問題,即係你剛才就講屋宇署,我哋知道喺宏福苑嘅 23 情況入面,就哋亦都見過有啲投訴個案就係話對唔住,呢個係居者有其屋,就係獨 24 立審查組嘅事,咁屋宇署就話唔關我事,咁會唔會考慮即係可能唔係淨係你哋兩個 25 部門,而係可能要更多跨部門去處理,因為如果唔係到時你同屋宇署做完一個磨 26 合,但係其實獨立審查組原來係唔關事個喎? 27 李萬邦先生:都會考慮埋跨部門合作。 28 李澍桓大律師:但係現階段就未有,係咪? 29 李萬邦先生:呢個可能要我上司去解答,即係呢啲係比較總部層面。 30 李澍桓大律師:或者我一陣間問袁先生。 31 李萬邦先生:係。 32 李澍桓大律師:咁去到最後當然一個議題,我想問一問你嘅就係就住剛才所講,即係我講到 33 話嗰個走火通道又或者嗰個證書嘅問題又好。 34 李萬邦先生:係。 35 李澍桓大律師:即係其實喺你其中嗰個證人口供入面有講,第49 到50 段第一份,我簡單嚟 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十六天

46 本謄本由Epiq 編製 講,我想了解多少少嗰個邏輯,因為你話--呢度簡單嚟講,就話如果冇人住緊嘅地 1 盤,即係新起緊嗰啲樓,就住嗰個確保逃生通道保持良好狀態,又可以保障工人安 2 全呢啲咁嘅情況,你就話呢個係勞工處負責嘅範疇嚟嘅。 3 李萬邦先生:唔。 4 李澍桓大律師:但係如果有人住緊緊嘅大廈維修,勞工處就唔負責,就應該要由屋宇署或者 5 消防處負責嘅? 6 李萬邦先生:係。 7 李澍桓大律師:咁我哋大家頭先都同意,即係走火通道出現問題嘅話,就唔係淨係影響居 8 民,亦都會影響工人,係咪? 9 李萬邦先生:係。 10 李澍桓大律師:所以我想了解下個邏輯喺邊度,即係話喺個法律基礎點解冇人住就關我事, 11 有人住就去第二個部門,其實嗰個分水嶺喺邊度呢? 12 李萬邦先生:其實我想落去睇埋第51、52 段嗰度。 13 李澍桓大律師:係,或者你直接解釋,我可以喺呢度畀你。 14 李萬邦先生:其實我52 段都講,即係因為其實後樓梯--即係而家講緊宏福苑嗰啲後樓梯, 15 大火之後得知其實就嗰啲梗窗就畀人打爛咗,跟住就令到嗰個濃煙攻入去咁樣。其 16 實我想講就係《職安健條例》冇一個(English Spoken),或者即係按嗰個大 17 後樓梯嗰啲窗或者相關有啲咩嘢(English Spoken ),係有啲需要佢嘅 18 (English Spoken)或者佢嘅(English Spoken),係冇呢樣嘢咁樣樣。 19 即係可能再舉一個活生生啲嘅例子,就係其實如果唔係喺呢啲即係有人住嘅 20 (English Spoken),喺啲(English Spoken),即係一棟大廈,起緊大 21 樓嘅時候,其實嗰啲咁嘅後樓梯或者逃生途徑,其實佢都冇呢啲咁嘅窗,或者冇呢 22 啲咁嘅梗窗,或者冇呢啲防煙門,其實我哋都唔會就住《建築地盤(安全)規例》 23 54 而去作出檢控。 24 李澍桓大律師:簡單嚟講,即係如果我冇理解錯嘅話,其實你嘅意思就即係話以宏福苑今次 25 嘅個案例子為例,由於佢係一個有人住緊嘅屋苑,如果簡單啲嚟講,就係其實開唔 26 開生口都好,根據你剛才個講法就係唔關勞工處事,因為有人住緊,應該就係屋宇 27 署、消防處佢去處理? 28 李萬邦先生:你講就住生口嗰啲,係咪? 29 李澍桓大律師:係。 30 李萬邦先生:係,冇錯。 31 李澍桓大律師:係咪?即係勞工處其實如果你話宏福苑嘅,就唔需要討論佢係唔係爬個棚定 32 係點,即係你哋勞工處個角度其實都唔關你哋事? 33 李萬邦先生:就住生口嗰個(English Spoken)係。 34 李澍桓大律師:我講緊都係生口,你講“MOE",英文應該就係“(English Spoken) 35 〔C:唔。〕"? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十六天

47 本謄本由Epiq 編製 李萬邦先生:係,冇錯,冇錯。 1 李澍桓大律師:我相信亦都同樣地喺宏福苑嘅個案入面,以你所知,你嘅同事冇曾經就住宏 2 福苑嘅八座入面嘅後樓梯去做過巡查各樣嘢,係咪?你應該冇咁嘅資料? 3 李萬邦先生:我哋2 月21 號嗰個巡查,其實我哋出過一個敦促改善通知書,其中有一個事 4 項就係提醒番嗰個承建商就住啲工人喺個棚架,我唔記得係邊一座,總之好似係25 5 樓喥,咁入番去嗰個後樓梯當中,佢有機會喺個棚嗰度從高處墮下,因為個棚同個 6 生中間有個(English Spoken ),即係有啲(English Spoken ),有機 7 會...(聽不清) 8 李澍桓大律師:有啲空隙。 9 李萬邦先生:有啲空隙,所以就住嗰個(English Spoken),同事有出到敦促改善通知 10 書畀承建商。 11 李澍桓大律師:即係就係填補番空隙,唔好做咁闊,唔好咁易跌咗落街,係咪? 12 李萬邦先生:係,就唔會喺個棚入番去嗰個後樓梯中間趺咗落去。 13 李澍桓大律師:但係唔係話即係針對住個生口應唔應該作出啲建議? 14 李萬邦先生:唔係。 15 李澍桓大律師:就唔係,係咪? 16 李萬邦先生:唔。 17 李澍桓大律師:主席,我冇。 18 陸啟康法官:或者其他問題我想有啲跟進。即係話--我都驚,因為我屋企仲有個棚喺度嘅。 19 我想問即係你話畀我聽,其實如果喺你哋嘅角度,即係唔好講法例嘅問題。 20 李萬邦先生:係,主席。 21 陸啟康法官:即係但係開生口其實可以係一個--我諗你都會覺得即係個行係好普遍咁用,係 22 咪? 23 李萬邦先生:係。 24 陸啟康法官:唔好理佢本身用咩嘢物料,即係佢可能應該要用防火物料,但係開生口呢一樣 25 本身,其實喺職安健方面係你哋覺得冇問題嘅? 26 李萬邦先生:係。 27 陸啟康法官:因為其實工人嚟講,佢始終係上落係有一個風險,或者佢唔應該爬棚去到咁多 28 層嘅? 29 李萬邦先生:係。 30 陳健波議員:主席,我有問題。 31 陸啟康法官:係,請你問。 32 陳健波議員:呢個問題即係好多謝你而家畀個意見我哋知道呢樣,因為我哋一路都覺得生口 33 點解係咁危險,但係點解可以用咁耐,因為你問嚫嗰啲裝修,個個都話都係咁做 34 咁,今日我哋有一個新嘅角度去睇呢樣嘢。如果你話即係職安健,亦都有你有剛才 35 解釋個原因。但係消防,或者我哋喺過往睇到真係好嚴重,其實有個中間落墨,即 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十六天

48 本謄本由Epiq 編製 係因為你有一個事件,你總唔能夠政府貿貿然淨係理呢啲,另外一個就咁中間嗰個 1 灰色咪冇人理,結困咪出事。 2 李萬邦先生:係。 3 陳健波議員:所以我就話--當然我相信你將來都會同消防諗下點樣去做到一方面達到你職安 4 健嘅要求,令個工人真係上落到,實際上可行。另一方面亦都要諗下點樣可以又達 5 到即係佢走火嗰陣時真係得到安全。其實都少少喺中間做緊嘅,就係點解,其實佢 6 要求就係嗰個生口可能要防火,出入要鎖咗嘅,咁你變咗就起碼擋咗一部分先,雖 7 然唔係絶對。 8 李萬邦先生:係。 9 陳健波議員:其實係呢啲就即係證明咗你哋雙方,如果係消防又會同你哋合作,我相信將來 10 呢啲機會希望大家都係要,即係幾個部門可能一齊做,咁先可以處理到,因為如果 11 純你嗰邊又冇問題,咁你變咗就即係出現咗呢啲問題。 12 李萬邦先生:多謝委員嘅意見。其實我哋都覺得即係開生口嗰個形式或者開生口嗰個方法, 13 其實係唔係即係都可以有個優化空間,即係譬如可能鉸剪梯咁樣,其實你唔需要個 14 個生口都係同一個--即係兩個鉸剪梯都有機會會用嘅,咁其實都係有個問題喺度, 15 即係嗰個方法... 16 陸啟康法官:咁都冇用,可能十層樓,你只係五層就呢個擺呢面,嗰個擺嗰面,但係大層樓 17 啲煙都可以... 18 李萬邦先生:係,即係一啲方法,係。 19 陸啟康法官:即係帶出咗另外一個都幾難處理一個技術性嘅問題。即係仲有一個方法可以用 20 𨋢嘅,即係整部𨋢,即係喺出面嘅𨋢,即係有其他。但係其實如果呢樣嘢解決唔 21 到,都係一個非常之危險,一係對工人危險,一係對住客危險。 22 李萬邦先生:係。 23 陸啟康法官:Okay。好,或者其他涉事方有冇咩嘢問題?如果係就到孫大律師,你有冇問 24 題?需唔需要啲時間或者你? 25 孫靖乾資深大律師:主席,我諗不如我哋攞少少時間,即係我都留意到而家時間,就因為我 26 哋無論如何仲有另一位嘅勞工處嘅證人,或者我可能如果可以嘅,就我睇睇。 27 陸啟康法官:咁不如我--因為又帶出咗一個都幾刺激性嘅一個新嘅題目。 28 孫靖乾資深大律師:係。 29 陸啟康法官:我諗我都畀時間你去考慮一下。我哋2 點15 分返嚟,好唔好? 30 杜淦堃資深大律師:主席,或者喺我哋午飯之前,我可以講一講點樣去可以搵一個保障到唔 31 同群組嘅方法,呢個係一個專家證人要處理嘅範疇我哋相信,所以之後可能有啲有 32 用嘅證據可以解決到呢個疑慮。 33 陸啟康法官:其實一般嚟講,嗰個--我亦都可以同公眾解釋一下,一般嚟講,如果喺今次嘅 34 聆訊,其實第一組聽嘅證人就係專家證人,因為可以搵到火災個原因,但係其實專 35 家證人真係喺個引證好多嘢都係要做一啲實際上嘅研究,或者係冇得逼個時間嘅。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十六天

49 本謄本由Epiq 編製 所以其實我哋把握時間,我哋喺未有嗰個專家證人報告之前,我哋已經開始咗聆 1 訊。大家亦都可以睇到嗰個聆訊進度係良好嘅,但係有一樣嘢我哋都冇辦法克服到 2 一個嘅先天性嗰個困難,就係始終專家證人需要一啲時間去引證佢哋嘅證據。我哋 3 稍候就會聽到專家證人關於火災嗰個成因或者蔓延係作出一個詳細報告畀我哋。 4 好,我哋而家惟有係咁樣樣,我哋就2 點15 分繼續我哋嘅聆訊。 5

6 12 時51 分聆訊押後 7 14 時15 分聆訊恢復 8

9 孫靖乾資深大律師:係,主席同埋兩位委員,多謝畀我哋一啲時間。我哋其實都有考慮過, 10 同埋留意到頭先杜大律師講話會有啲專家證人嘅證供。淨係針對頭先李先生嘅一啲 11 嘅證供,我冇進一步嘅問題。不過頭先委員會有問過嗰個案例。 12 陸啟康法官:我睇過嘞。 13 孫靖乾資深大律師:因為我哋冇機會係--即係佢--李先生畀緊證供,去同佢溝通,但係我哋 14 估計應該係有一個案件就係HCMA,咁就係個number 係864,係1990 年,咁嗰 15 個係有一個嘅高等法院嘅法官,應該係(English Spoken)喺1990 年9 月4 16 號--9 月7 號嘅一個(English Spoken),我哋啱啱應該係我理解係提供咗個 17 有關嘅嗰個判詞其實都幾短,應該係幾頁紙嘅啫,就畀呢IC 個獨立委員會嘅律師 18 嘅,係嘞,所以可能即係佢哋盡快,如果係用啲咩嘢方式再可能提供畀委員會。 19 陸啟康法官:我自己就睇過案例㗎嘞。 20 孫靖乾資深大律師:係。 21 陸啟康法官:基本上都係話唔好,即係可能佢如果要求嗰個工人爬好多呢,就可能會 22 (English Spoken)佢個(English Spoken),即係會過佢嗰個即係體力 23 要求。 24 孫靖乾資深大律師:冇錯,冇錯,即係佢會疲勞,然之後跟住可能會增加呢個風險。 25 陸啟康法官:係嘞,咁所以因為嗰件我睇嗰個事就同今次未必一定相同。 26 孫靖乾資深大律師:理解,理解。 27 陸啟康法官:但係佢個法官有一個咁嘅(English Spoken),即係一個觀察。 28 孫靖乾資深大律師:觀察,係嘞,冇錯。 29 陸啟康法官:所以我諗呢樣嘢我哋遲啲再睇睇,可能都要專家證人去睇一睇有咩方法,咁係 30 用生口或者用其他方法,係應該點樣做。 31 孫靖乾資深大律師:明白,明白。 32 陸啟康法官:亦都睇下,真係應該要睇一睇係咪--即係當時一個嘅--所謂係一個公認嘅做法 33 咁樣樣,即係個個都會接受係呢一個方法㗎嘞,咁樣樣。 34 孫靖乾資深大律師:係,明白。 35 陸啟康法官:所以呢樣嘢我諗我哋容後再睇一睇,不過我哋都知道,其實我諗亦都多謝證人 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十六天

50 本謄本由Epiq 編製 提供咗一個即係比較新啲嘅觀點我哋去睇一睇。咁呢個亦都係我哋... 1 孫靖乾資深大律師:係,等我哋可以全面審視個問題。 2 陸啟康法官:係嘞,即係其實我哋永遠都有一個難處就係即係平衡好多唔同嘅考慮因素,我 3 哋以為嗰啲因素可能係一致嘅,又未必一定係一致嘅。即係可能從工人嗰個嘅工作 4 安全嗰個觀點去睇,同其他嘅安全因素一併考慮可能有少少衝突,咁點樣解決,我 5 相信正如杜大律師都會講,即係我諗專家證人都會畀一啲分析我哋。但係當時個做 6 法係咪好錯呢?咁我諗都要睇下當時嗰個情況嗰個行規或者點樣做法係去考慮。我 7 諗最後喺報告嗰度,我哋都會一併過考慮呢啲咁嘅因素。我諗無論當時呢個係咪一 8 個好常見嘅做法都好,我哋都希望提出有任何改善嘅必要嘅時候,希望第時我哋做 9 呢啲工程會更加安全。 10 孫靖乾資深大律師:係,同意嘅,主席。唔該晒。 11 李澍桓大律師:我諗我簡單啲我直接問呢位證人,確認嗰個案例係咪嗰個,李先生,你剛才 12 提及到有一個高等法院嘅案例。 13 李萬邦先生:係。 14 李澍桓大律師:由於因為律政署嗰邊冇可能喺你作供期間同你溝通。 15 李萬邦先生:係。 16 李澍桓大律師:所以佢哋估計就應該有一個係咪個被告就叫做(English Spoken)嗰個 17 案例? 18 李萬邦先生:冇錯,係呢一個,係。 19 李澍桓大律師:1990 年9 月4 號一個頒布嘅案例。 20 李萬邦先生:係。 21 李澍桓大律師:但係當然喇,我如果純粹從個案例入面所講嘅,就似乎佢講緊仲係嗰個年代 22 就係有一單... 23 陸啟康法官:係,三十五年前㗎嘞。 24 李澍桓大律師:單面棚架。 25 李萬邦先生:係,冇錯,冇錯。 26 李澍桓大律師:就因為我相信而家應該個棚架嘅要求就必須要有一個即係雙層同埋有個工作 27 台嘅,係咪?即係如果個安全守則上面? 28 李萬邦先生:冇錯,係呀,係呀。 29 李澍桓大律師:就唔會話淨係得一面嘅,即係一面單邊嘅? 30 李萬邦先生:係,單棚,唔會有,係 31 李澍桓大律師:而家法例上應該係唔容許,係咪? 32 李萬邦先生:如果我哋見到呢個情況就會停佢工,即係會出停工令停咗個相關工程。 33 李澍桓大律師:係。冇其他問題。 34 陸啟康法官:唔該晒,唔該晒證人,我諗你作供亦都完畢,你嘅證供對我哋考慮呢件事亦都 35 非常之重要。多謝你今日出席呢個聽證會。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十六天

51 本謄本由Epiq 編製 李萬邦先生:主席,我有一個(English Spoken)想補充番少少。 1 陸啟康法官:好呀,好呀,請--李生。 2 李萬邦先生:其實我個證人供詞裏面亦都有講過,即係今朝早阿林女士嗰個reply 之後, 3 其實林女士今朝早即係啱啱李大狀問10 月4 號有個reply 畀個公眾係唔係咁清 4 晰咁樣樣。 5 李澍桓大律師:即係你講緊棚網有冇阻燃標準? 6 李萬邦先生:係,即係棚網相對火險比較低咁樣。 7 李澍桓大律師:你想補充? 8 李萬邦先生:我想補充番少少。 9 李澍桓大律師:得,請隨便。 10 李萬邦先生:其實勞工處喺10 月5 號,就住另一個投訴人,其實收到一個投訴,就話10 11 月4 號林女士嗰個reply 係唔清晰嘅,即係有誤導咁樣樣。其實勞工處,即係因 12 為佢係投訴林女士,其實當時我嘅前任--即係高級分區職業安全主任,當時時任嘅 13 高級分區職業安全主任,其實就負責去調查呢個即係林女士嘅投訴嘅,即係投訴林 14 女士呢個投訴,係嘞。 15 李澍桓大律師:係。 16 李萬邦先生:其實我哋亦都睇過番嗰個回覆,即係林女士10 月4 日作出嗰個回覆,其實都 17 覺得有啲改善嘅空間。所以我哋喺12 月5 號其實就覆咗另一個投訴人,就話畀呢 18 個投訴人聽,其實我哋係收到一啲即係嗰個阻燃證明,即係從(English 19 Spoken)嗰度攞到關於棚網嘅阻燃證明,其實都(English Spoken )咗一樣 20 嘢就係勞工處係對於呢樣嘢有個即係監管、有睇法咁樣。咁另一個投訴人收到我哋 21 呢個回覆之後,其實佢都有出番一個電郵係多謝我哋勞工處即係解答咗佢嗰個投訴 22 咁樣,係。 23 李澍桓大律師:係,但係既然你提番起呢樣嘢。我相信當然最--頭先你講緊就係2024 年... 24 李萬邦先生:12 月5 號。 25 李澍桓大律師:...12 月喇。 26 李萬邦先生:係,係。 27 李澍桓大律師:但係當然,我諗即係處方都會明白,而家似乎個問題就係睇完一張證書,可 28 能你哋都冇辦法核實到內容係咪真喇,因為似乎最大個問題唔係話有冇呢張證書 29 喇,而係冇嗰個專業嘅配備或者知識畀前線嘅同事去考慮呢啲問題喇,係咪? 30 李萬邦先生:係,同意,係。 31 李澍桓大律師:主席。 32 陸啟康法官:孫大律師冇因為頭先個問題跟... 33 孫靖乾資深大律師:冇嘅。 34 陸啟康法官:唔該晒,okay,唔該晒,李先生,今日多謝你出嚟畀證供。 35 李萬邦先生:唔該,好。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十六天

52 本謄本由Epiq 編製

1 14 時22 分勞工處高級分區職業安全主任(1)(行動科)(新界東及觀塘區)證人李萬邦 2 先生作供完畢 3

4 14 時23 勞工處總職業安全主任(行動)證人袁子諾先生開始作供 5

6 李澍桓大律師:主席,下一位證人係袁子諾先生。袁先生,喺你面前有個聲明詞,或者請你 7 先企起身讀出嗰個聲明詞。 8 袁子諾先生:本人袁子諾聲明,本人所作的證供,盡本人所知、所悉及所信,均屬真實。 9 李澍桓大律師:係,請坐。袁先生,我哋知道你喺94 年加入勞工處,係咪? 10 袁子諾先生:係。 11 李澍桓大律師:喺2024 年8 月嘅時候就晉升到而家呢一個叫做總職業安全主任(行動)嘅 12 呢個職位。 13 袁子諾先生:冇錯。 14 李澍桓大律師:簡單啲嚟講,我相信你主要嘅職責就係管轄首先職安嘅行動部門,係咪? 15 袁子諾先生:啱。 16 李澍桓大律師:所以我相信剛才作供嘅李先生或者再之前嘅林女士都係屬於你管轄範圍下嘅 17 同事? 18 袁子諾先生:冇錯。 19 李澍桓大律師:我亦都相信以你個職位,就唔會話真係日常嘅參與巡查嘞,而係多數就係制 20 訂一啲執法嘅行動、調查嘅行動同埋一啲政策、措施咁樣,係咪? 21 袁子諾先生:係。 22 李澍桓大律師:就住今次個委員會調查呢,我知道你提交咗一份嘅證人陳述書嘅。 23 袁子諾先生:冇錯。 24 李澍桓大律師:我亦都相信你可以確認入面嘅內容係屬實,係咪? 25 袁子諾先生:屬實。 26 李澍桓大律師:係,我有第一張文件,因為我哋都聽過你兩位同事有講及過關於巡查嘅問 27 題。 28 袁子諾先生:係。 29 李澍桓大律師:或者唔同嘅情況,我唔仔細問你嘞。但係我有一份文件想你睇番,就係一個 30 電郵,呢個電郵就喺2024 年12 月4 號嘅,其實我哋可以喺D2 嗰個文件冊 31 /1981 頁睇到嘅,首先我哋知道呢一個電郵唔係由袁生你發出嘅,所以--但由於 32 因為你係勞工處暫時最高級嘅證人。 33 袁子諾先生:係。 34 李澍桓大律師:所以我想問一問你,睇下你有冇認知,首先第一有睇過呢一封電郵,呢個 35 2024 年12 月4 號,如果我哋落少少,我哋就睇到就係似乎畀(English 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十六天

53 本謄本由Epiq 編製 Spoken)嘅(English Spoken),係咪? 1 袁子諾先生:係。 2 李澍桓大律師:咁就基本上呢封電郵嘅意思就係提醒番,我相信DSO 就係好似林女士之前嗰 3 個職級,係咪? 4 袁子諾先生:冇錯。 5 李澍桓大律師:就提醒番佢哋嘅下屬呢,呢度就咁講嘅,所有嘅巡查喺工地入面,英文就係 6 “(English Spoken)”,咁當時就應該有位陳先生就出呢個電郵。 7 袁子諾先生:冇錯。 8 李澍桓大律師:你有冇見過呢個電郵呀? 9 袁子諾先生:有。 10 李澍桓大律師:首先第一,即係所以話(English Spoken )或者(English 11 Spoken)呢個字眼就唔係我想像出嚟嘅,我都係睇番呢個電郵。似乎呢度呢個電 12 郵就有個提醒嘅意思喺度嘅,係咪? 13 袁子諾先生:係。 14 李澍桓大律師:我想問係咪因為有啲時間係個巡查冇跟呢一個所謂突擊嘅情況,所以處方高 15 層都覺得要提醒番啲同事嗰個做法? 16 袁子諾先生:並非係咁樣。 17 李澍桓大律師:係。 18 袁子諾先生:或者呢度我解釋番。 19 李澍桓大律師:好。 20 袁子諾先生:其實喺呢個電郵之前,我啲同事其實係收到--即係畀公眾投訴,其實正正就係 21 話我啲同事就做巡查嘅時候就即係同嗰啲承建商,或者係即係話咗畀佢哋知我哋會 22 做呢個咁嘅巡查。 23 李澍桓大律師:係。 24 袁子諾先生:但係我哋實際喺我哋調查完呢個投訴之後,其實就唔成立嘅,即係我哋啲同事 25 所有嘅(English Spoken)都係一個(English Spoken )。所以其實呢個 26 最主要就係話我哋再次提醒番同事,只不過係一個(English Spoken)嘅性質 27 啫,唔係話佢哋呢樣嘢係有--即係話係變差或者做得唔好嘅情況。 28 李澍桓大律師:即係你嘅講法就唔係話因為有人通知咗會預先--事先張揚作巡查。咁所以就 29 提醒番佢哋唔好咁做,就並非咁嘅情況? 30 袁子諾先生:並非如此。 31 李澍桓大律師:明白。由於因為你當時--我相信即係宏福苑大火嘅時候或者再之前嘅一啲相 32 關時間都係已經坐緊呢個職位喇。 33 袁子諾先生:係。 34 李澍桓大律師:所以我唔問你一啲話太過實在,關於巡查或者檢控嘅情況。所以我有幾個大 35 嘅議題呢,純粹就集中,睇下處方個政策上面嘅一啲方向。第一個,我就想傾一傾 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十六天

54 本謄本由Epiq 編製 關於即係我哋知道雖然嚟緊話可能會想修例? 1 袁子諾先生:係。 2 李澍桓大律師:但係其實過往勞工處一向都有一個權力就係做一個叫《禁煙令》嘅。 3 袁子諾先生:係。 4 李澍桓大律師:剛才我同阿李生都有探討過。其實喺袁生你嘅證人口供,第36 段,你都有 5 提及過有兩個都較近期嘅棚架著火嘅一個案例。 6 袁子諾先生:係。 7 李澍桓大律師:一個就係23 年嘅尖沙咀海員之家。 8 袁子諾先生:係。 9 李澍桓大律師:咁另一個再近啲宏福苑嗰個情況就應該係25 年10 月中環華懋大廈嗰度。 10 袁子諾先生:係。 11 李澍桓大律師:我都畀你睇一睇,即係你第36 段喇,等你知道講法,但係我嘅理解,就係 12 你都同意其實有陣時--根據你嘅講法,尤其是即係最褸屘嗰度你都講,其實喺工地 13 上面吸煙的而且確係一個隱患,會引致火災嘅,係咪? 14 袁子諾先生:同意。 15 李澍桓大律師:我相信呢個亦都係驅使即係點解處方而家會考慮即係修例嘅呢個情況,係 16 咪? 17 袁子諾先生:同意。 18 李澍桓大律師:當然,我頭先都有講過,想睇下你會唔會有啲咩嘢意見?即係始終就算你話 19 喺新例入面可能會引入一啲責任,唔係淨係針對食煙嗰個人,可能針對個承建商, 20 畀個責任佢要佢規管各樣。但係我相信喺你哋執行呢個條例嘅其中一個首要嘅條件 21 都係,即係你要叫個承建商或者罰個承建商,「喂,你冇一個完善嘅制度喎」,我 22 相信你哋都係個首要條件就係話你有個工人喺個工地度食煙,所以我先可以罰個承 23 建商,係咪? 24 袁子諾先生:係。 25 李澍桓大律師:所以變咗某個程度上都係有同一個--面對同一個問題,就係你哋執法嘅時 26 候,尤其是勞工處處方高層有冇諗過點樣可以改善嗰個執法嘅情況呢,即係可以搜 27 證更加容易呢? 28 袁子諾先生:係,或者我解釋番喇,主席,我哋呢度,其實我哋嚟緊修訂嗰個條例,其實就 29 係因為我哋都係察覺到喺頭先《建築地盤(安全)規例》第56 條嗰度,我哋因為有 30 一啲限制嘅掣肘,就唔可以咁容易喺地盤嗰度做一個禁煙嘅情況。所以而家我哋亦 31 都知道,其實就經過宏福苑嘅事件之後,咁有好多嘅社會聲音都希望我哋即係將禁 32 煙嘅情況就加強個規管,管控,其中一個就禁--喺地盤嗰度禁煙嘅。所以其實我哋 33 嗰個修例其實係簡單係有三個層次,我想喺度即係畀大家了解多少少。第一個層 34 次,其實我哋就會係將嗰個修訂咗,嗰個我哋就會修訂《香港法例》第371 章,其 35 實嗰個就係叫做《吸煙(公眾衞生)條例》嗰度,咁我哋直頭就將個地盤就成為咗 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十六天

55 本謄本由Epiq 編製 一個禁煙區,即係將來無論個地盤大與小,風險度高與低都係唔可以食煙㗎嘞。另 1 外係針對... 2 李澍桓大律師:呢個停一停,就係等於即係將佢變為好似巴士站一部分咁? 3 袁子諾先生:冇錯。 4 李澍桓大律師:呢個就係而家即係... 5 袁子諾先生:將會我哋... 6 李澍桓大律師:...嗰個條例涵蓋嘅一啲地方,係咪? 7 袁子諾先生:冇錯,係。 8 李澍桓大律師:請你繼續。 9 袁子諾先生:係,另外我哋亦都會係修改《香港法例》第600 章,600 章其實就係嗰個《定 10 額罰款(吸煙罪行)條例》,入面其實我哋就會用一個定額罰款嘅方式,就如果我 11 哋啲同事去到地盤嗰度見到有人食煙,就會發出一個定額嘅告票,咁呢個個罰款就 12 係3,000 鈫,同一般喺個禁煙場所嗰度不准吸煙嗰個罰款其實係一致嘅,呢度。 13 李澍桓大律師:係,即係主要就。 14 袁子諾先生:係。 15 李澍桓大律師:第三個。 16 袁子諾先生:另外就係第三個層次就係話,咁我哋頭先有同事都講過,我哋會修訂《建築地 17 盤(安全)規例》,咁其實個目的就係話,頭先所講,頭先我講嗰兩個層次其實就 18 係吸煙者個違規行為,但係喺地盤入面,總承建商都有佢個法律上確保地盤安全嘅 19 責任嘅,所以我哋就會修改《建築地盤(安全)規例》第56 條,即係而家嗰個禁 20 煙條款個,我會將佢修改--我哋部門就會修改,就成為就要求所有嘅承建商要採取 21 一個合--所有嘅合理嘅步驟,確保喺地盤嗰度冇人食煙,同埋就唔可以將嗰啲燃點 22 嘅煙草類產品帶入地盤嗰度。 23 李澍桓大律師:係。所以--我明嘅,即係呢個修例嗰個意思,或者個作用,嘗試做到嘅就係 24 如果我去到地盤,喺個地盤入面我見到有人食煙嘅,我見到有個工人食煙,我唔單 25 只可以罰個工人,我仲可以根據個條例罰個承建商,罰個地盤管工,係咪?即係呢 26 個就係個原意? 27 袁子諾先生:係,冇錯。 28 李澍桓大律師:所以我個問題倒番轉就唔係話我唔理解個修例,個問題就係似乎而家--先唔 29 好講有冇法例,即係似乎而家去到地盤就見唔到有人食煙吖嘛,咁你見唔到有人食 30 煙,你就不能夠倚賴呢一個新例去告人㗎嘛,因為你都要有嗰啲證據話人食煙㗎 31 嘛。 32 袁子諾先生:係,明白。 33 李澍桓大律師:咁似乎同事就話覺得即係搜證上面可能有一定嘅困難,我就純粹想了解下, 34 你哋有冇諗過一啲對策,定還是「有,不過如果我喺度講咗就唔係對策,所以我唔 35 講」? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十六天

56 本謄本由Epiq 編製 袁子諾先生:或者咁,我哋可以簡單一個講--即係簡單地說就係話,如果將來喺地盤嗰度, 1 或者甚至乎可以講得闊啲,有居民見到有人喺地盤度食煙,佢可以提供一啲證據畀 2 我哋,我哋就呢個層面嗰度,我哋可以執法嘅,喺將來,因為食煙係違法吖嘛,我 3 哋咪可以執法,所以呢個係我哋其中一個考量點嘅。 4 李澍桓大律師:我都知道修例都仍然需要一段時間。 5 袁子諾先生:係。 6 李澍桓大律師:所以我哋都仍然想理解嘅就係喺條例未正式真係可以改到之前,可唔可以提 7 供到少少資料畀我哋,就係譬如呢個禁煙令,你都講,其實過往勞工處係好少行使 8 呢個權力嘅,咁當然你亦都有解釋過,或者你嘅同事都有解釋過,佢有啲前設嘅條 9 件嘅。但係數字上,你可唔可以講到畀我知,究竟實際上勞工處行使過幾多次呢一 10 個禁煙令? 11 袁子諾先生:抱歉,我暫時冇呢個數字喺手,主席。 12 李澍桓大律師:係。以你印象中係咪有行使過,不過冇實際個數字? 13 袁子諾先生:我印象中係有行使過嘅。 14 李澍桓大律師:係。第二個問題就係從高層考慮上面。 15 袁子諾先生:係。 16 李澍桓大律師:睇下你可唔可以幫到我哋。 17 袁子諾先生:唔。 18 李澍桓大律師:就係關於嗰個棚網同埋前線同事嗰個檢查,佢有冇嗰個即係資格或者有冇配 19 備幫到佢哋。就住呢一方面,處方有冇啲咩嘢講法? 20 袁子諾先生:好。或者呢度可以講多少少,咁即係話--其實頭先我兩位同事都同大家講過, 21 我哋最主要就攞嗰個證書,即係睇下佢符唔符合嗰個標準。咁其實我哋嚟緊,其實 22 我哋都知道,喺屋宇署佢本身有一個係嗰個棚網嘅檢驗嘅實驗室,佢有個名單嘅。 23 我哋同事其實就即係會係根據我哋攞咗嗰個證書,而睇睇佢嗰個棚網實驗室究竟嗰 24 個做完實驗之後,究竟係咪屋宇署所認可,或者係嗰個實驗室發生嘅。 25 李澍桓大律師:係,但係因為我哋都知道,其中棚架包括埋棚網,我哋都睇過第4 版、第5 26 版,咁呢個都確認咗,基本上都係勞工處要處理嘅範圍入面嘅事嚟嘅。 27 袁子諾先生:係,冇錯。 28 李澍桓大律師:所以其中一樣嘢就要確保啲棚網或者你哋用嘅字眼,保護膜,就要符合一啲 29 阻燃或者低燃燒嘅一啲標準嘅? 30 袁子諾先生:冇錯。 31 李澍桓大律師:咁呢個基本上喺平時一般嘅情況嚟講,你就唔會話即係成日都經常話我同屋 32 宇署一齊去做呢一個聯合行動㗎嘛?因為我相信你剛才講個聯合行動就係因應宏福 33 苑大火,社會上面有棚網安全有個關注,所以就政府直情係暫停,唔准人用棚網? 34 袁子諾先生:係。 35 李澍桓大律師:上咗架嘅--上咗棚嘅都要落番嚟? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十六天

57 本謄本由Epiq 編製 袁子諾先生:唔。 1 李澍桓大律師:但係喺未來你哋去執法,尤其是要確保棚網係安全嘅情況。你嘅講法係由今 2 日開始或者即係宏福苑大火之後,宏福苑大火之後,你哋都會一直係同屋宇署聯合 3 去做呢個動作定還是係點樣? 4 袁子諾先生:或者呢度再補充番,主席。其實頭先我講,屋宇署嗰個實驗室嘅名單,其實喺 5 網上我哋可以搵到嘅,其實我哋只要對番嗰個棚網嘅證書所發出嗰個機構,是否屋 6 宇署佢認可嘅。如果認可嘅時候,咁我哋覺得佢已經係一個--我哋相信係一個合標 7 準嘅實驗室去發出呢啲咁嘅證明書。 8 李澍桓大律師:咁係咪我嘅意思即係話,以後,以你理解,香港嘅棚網,首先第一,如果要 9 可以安全地上到--順利地上到個棚嘅話,佢要喺香港認可嘅實驗室做咗化驗,呢個 10 係第一步,係咪咁嘅理解?即係呢個要求。 11 袁子諾先生:據我嘅認知,因為呢個係屋宇署嗰面嗰個範圍。其實嗰個實驗室,我記得個名 12 單就不限於本港嘅,咁佢有個名--即係有一個(English Spoken)咁講,係。 13 李澍桓大律師:咁即係純粹同以往唔同嘅就係以往--咁又睇下我理解啱唔啱?係咪即係話, 14 站在勞工處嘅角度,我如果睇到呢張證書係由屋宇署提供嘅一個名單上面,有佢個 15 名喺度嘅,你哋就會接納呢張嘢係--即係呢個證書,包括佢嘅測試內容都係準確, 16 咁你就會認為冇問題㗎嘞,呢個就係勞工處基本上將來嘅執法政策? 17 袁子諾先生:係。 18 李澍桓大律師:喺嗰個收咗張證書嘅時候,會唔會考慮都除咗話淨係對實驗室個名,會唔會 19 都做一啲可能係需要--有冇考慮過做一啲核實嘅工夫? 20 袁子諾先生:我呢度可以再講解多少少,主席。其實喺實驗室嗰張證書嗰度,本身就有邊個 21 實驗室嗰個名,如果對實驗室嗰張證書有懷疑,其實我哋可以打電話去問番個實驗 22 室嘅情況。 23 李澍桓大律師:係,我嘅意思就係你等到有懷疑先打就遲,我嘅意思係,雖然佢畀張名單你 24 啫,曳嘅人佢都可能會造假㗎嘛。咁佢畀張證書你嘅時候,其實個同事去做一啲核 25 實嘅程序,即係變為一個恆常嘅工作,唔係話我有懷疑先做,會唔會可能較為理想 26 嘅一個做法? 27 袁子諾先生:但係我哋亦都相信嗰個發出嗰個證書嗰個實驗室,咁應該係確實嘅。如果--即 28 係我哋都咁講,如果我哋發現到有啲承建商,即係係處心積慮係呃我哋嘅話,如果 29 我哋都--即係佢處心積慮,我哋亦都冇辦法可以即係防備到,但係我哋如果知道嘅 30 話,我哋會轉介番去相關嘅執法機構去跟進嘅。 31 李澍桓大律師:我睇下可唔可以問多你一個問題,我就唔糾纏。如果我而家畀張ABC 實驗室 32 你嘅證書,呢個ABC 實驗室係屋宇署轄--似乎名單上有佢個名嘅,咁我畀咗呢張 33 證書你,你都唔知ABC 實驗室係咪真係有發出過呢張證書㗎嘛? 34 袁子諾先生:我哋只會係信承建商。 35 李澍桓大律師:係,即係所以去到最後,而家似乎即係有啲問題就係我哋太過倚賴,純粹成 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十六天

58 本謄本由Epiq 編製 日都係講要承建商自律,咁似乎我哋監管就可能要考慮係咪足夠。我唔再糾纏呢個 1 問題,我問下一個問題。 2 剛才李先生臨尾作結嘅時候,因為始終你都係做政策,就住生口,雖然我哋都 3 會有專家可能要處理嘅問題。我都想畀個機會你,袁先生,你會唔會想就住生口嗰 4 度表達處方嘅立場? 5 袁子諾先生:好,唔該。主席,頭先我即係又--因為聽李先生頭先所講,咁我相信李先生佢 6 所講,其實係一個前線嘅執法層面嘅同事去睇嗰個生口嘅問題,其實我理解嘅,佢 7 覺得係有咁嘅需要。但係其實究竟個生口,其實喺我哋嗰個政策上嘅層面,嗰個其 8 實就係話唔係一定係有一個必要性嘅。其實點解我會有咁嘅結論,其實生口嘅目的 9 係畀人哋出入嗰個棚架,我當咁樣講,出入個棚架,但係其實可以有一個好多嘅方 10 法出入個棚架嘅。 11 而不過頭先嗰個生口,其實個--頭--李先生覺得就係話,假若嗰個地方真係危 12 險,咁就可以好快脆離開。咁首先,就係話嗰個生口嘅原則唔係我哋勞工處去決定 13 嘅,呢個。咁即係我舉一個例子,即係如果嗰個走火嘅通道唔係窗嘅,係實心牆 14 嘅,咁唔通佢又打開個--即係鑿咗啲石屎開個窿咩?其實我覺得,如果一個生口嘅 15 角度嚟睇,即係我哋喺另外一個睇法,即係憑我即係都即係以往嘅經驗,咁我都知 16 道即係話,生口其實係有佢嘅安全嘅用途,大家都明嘅。但係佢究竟佢嗰個位置, 17 即係生口開喺邊個位置、佢個大細、佢個數量,其實承建商佢如果真係想做呢樣個 18 生口,佢真係要做一個風險評估。即係唔係話即係搵個就位嘅地方而做一個生口, 19 即係我可以咁樣嘅諗法就係。最緊要佢做完之後,因為點解涉及個生口,又涉及到 20 一個可能結構上,大廈結構上嘅問題,就佢係--可能佢係需要即係諮詢番,譬如係 21 顧問公司或者係相關嘅政府部門,即係先至係做呢個咁嘅動作嘅,我覺得係。 22 李澍桓大律師:因為我都相信呢個信息係緊要嘅,你--我--如果係咁樣嘅,我或者都畀你睇 23 番相關嘅條例,D1 文件冊/第186 頁,第54 條嗰度,咁頭先我--我唔再讀出 24 嚟,簡單啲嚟講,即係基本上就係話,如果有人故意、更改、損害或者阻礙或者其 25 他方法上損害一啲走火通道,英文你哋應該叫(English Spoken)嘅話,就有 26 機會係違反咗法例嘅。 27 咁我相信剛才袁生你所講話,睇下我理解啱唔啱就話,當然,如果有唔抵觸呢 28 一個條例,尤其是講到係一啲走火通道嘅時候,當然開設一啲生口或者其他啲進出 29 棚架嘅地方,我可唔可以理解勞工處一般嚟講,如果嗰個地方係屬你哋管轄範圍嘅 30 話,其實你哋就唔反對嘅?即係唔影響個走火通道嘅情況之下。 31 袁子諾先生:係,或者唔影響嗰個住客安全,咁樣講。 32 李澍桓大律師:係,但係當然,如果譬如有機會違反到第54 條,我哋剛剛睇嘅呢個條例嘅 33 話,即係話會有機會影響到走火通道嘅話,我可唔可以理解即係處方都可以畀一個 34 正面嘅信息,就係基本上處方就唔容許呢個做法,因為冇可能容許人哋去更改個走 35 火通道咁? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十六天

59 本謄本由Epiq 編製 袁子諾先生:或者呢度我有少少即係想講番嗰個法例嘅條文。其實我哋睇番(2),其實扣番 1 住54(1)嗰度嘅,咁其實佢最主要佢講係話,設置喺建築地盤,地盤,所以其實 2 就係話喺個地盤嗰個情況,其實我係同意嘅。但係而家就去到一個頭先所講,喺個 3 走火通道,係一個即係公眾嘅走火...(聽不清)嘅位置,所以就有少少同呢個法 4 例嗰個應用嘅層面係有少少唔同嘅。 5 李澍桓大律師:係,所以你嘅講法即係如果宏福苑為例,你哋嘅講法就呢個唔--甚至乎完全 6 係第54 條係不適用嘅一個情況,係咪咁嘅意思?因為佢唔係建築地盤嚟? 7 袁子諾先生:後樓梯嗰個窗口位,頭先所講嗰個。 8 李澍桓大律師:但係維修嘅時候係成座大廈維修㗎嘛。 9 袁子諾先生:但係--咁講,係。 10 李澍桓大律師:即係我唔會--你勞工處都唔會淨係話個外牆就係建築地盤,其他部分唔係建 11 築地盤,因為成個防火措施,又或者你監管嘅地方基本上係成個工地㗎嘛? 12 袁子諾先生:係,冇錯嘅,呢個。但係我想呢度即係再重申,即係補充番,其實我哋最主要 13 我哋考慮嗰個走火通道嘅位置,喺工作嘅地點入面,即係話工人做嘢嗰個位置。 14 李澍桓大律師:我諗或者呢個議題,我哋都係交畀專家去處理。 15 袁子諾先生:好。 16 李澍桓大律師:主席,我冇其他問題。 17 歐陽伯權博士:唔該,袁生。 18 袁子諾先生:係。 19 歐陽伯權博士:我想問一個問題,袁生,頭先你提到而家將會有修例嗰三項,咁非常好消 20 息。但係喺個執行方面,我仲想你可唔可以畀多啲消息我哋?頭先我哋大律師問咗 21 個問題,就係我哋主要嘅就係想制止啲人士喺嗰個地盤可以話係吸煙,但係你頭先 22 提到話就算有人提供張相片都算係一個證據,你可唔可喺呢方面畀多啲消息我哋? 23 唔該。 24 袁子諾先生:好,其實因為而家嚟緊如果將嗰個吸煙定為咗係違反即係我哋職安健執行嘅法 25 例嘅時候,因為已經係一個違反職安健嘅事項,我哋可以透過投訴人所提交嘅資料 26 作為其中一個檢控嘅基礎,或者係一個搜證嘅基礎,我哋可以提出一個檢控嘅考 27 慮。 28 或者委員,頭先我可以再補充番,除咗我哋頭先透過投訴人呢個咁嘅資料之 29 外,其實我哋亦都會係嚟緊同即係控煙酒辦嗰面嘅同事取一取經,因為佢哋亦都係 30 面對即係類似啲食煙咁嘅問題,我哋呢度係會同佢哋再研究下。 31 另外,就係話頭先所講,我哋可能會用一啲科技,科技嗰個層面嗰度,科技我 32 哋睇下--因為大家都知道如果即係有啲工人可能喺一啲高位,即係可能前線嘅,管 33 工未必去到嘅地方,但係可能喺一啲高嘅位置,我哋可能會唔會可能使用無人機做 34 一個偵察,嚟緊我哋都會研究呢個課題嘅,希望喺個全方位嗰度就做一個搜證嘅工 35 作。唔該主席。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十六天

60 本謄本由Epiq 編製 歐陽伯權博士:但係我哋係唔係都係面對同一個挑戰,就係而家我哋比較困難嘅,就係要當 1 場你哋要見到嗰個人士吸煙,你先至可以話係懲罰佢或者咩嘢。但係就算有新嘅法 2 例,除咗嗰個判罰係高咗之外,嗰個執行嗰方面我睇唔到有咩嘢大分別? 3 袁子諾先生:或者委員,或者我呢度講清楚少少,我補充番。 4 歐陽伯權博士:係。 5 袁子諾先生:其實而家因為係吸煙喺地盤嗰度佢唔係一個違法行為,其實我哋係冇一個執法 6 權去即係向嗰啲吸煙嘅人提出檢控嘅,但係將來就可以,吸煙就已經成為咗一條法 7 例。 8 陸啟康法官:所以我諗其實簡單啲,就唔係因為有幅相,因為其實相以前都得,而家都得, 9 不過因為而家你檢控唔到,就係因為而家嗰個法例就唔包呢樣嘢,因為喺地盤淨係 10 吸煙就唔屬於違法嘅,但係之後,我哋會遇到其他嘅執法嘅問題,即係我哋都好清 11 楚李大律師都係刑事法嘅大律師,佢哋去到代表被告就會有好多理由,話畀你聽喺 12 法庭嗰度舉證幾難,所以其實我諗呢個都係一個挑戰嚟嘅。 13 袁子諾先生:係。 14 陸啟康法官:即係我自己都係即係喺法庭工作,咁我一定會知道其實喺法庭即係講證據嗰個 15 要求性都好高嘅。 16 袁子諾先生:明白。 17 陸啟康法官:所以我諗亦都個舉證責任都好大嘅,但係我諗我哋都係普通法嘅法制都係要求 18 係咁,我哋都要一定咁做。但係我諗喺個科技應用去執法嗰個時候,我諗可能真係 19 第二時需要用多啲嘅方法,或者多啲嘅--其實呢樣嘢我諗以後所有,唔單只係勞工 20 處或者係交通部或者咩嘢,我哋覺得好多方法而家可以用好多科技嘅,係我哋肯唔 21 肯去做,好老實講我哋肯唔肯去做,肯唔肯畀多啲錢,或者我哋有冇咁嘅人手去 22 做。 23 我相信今次大火之後,我相信呢個執行一定會係喺你哋即係嗰個層次要擺高 24 啲,因為其實我哋大家覺得今次都係--我哋好多嘢未必一定可以完全防止到,但係 25 如果我哋將嗰個認知覺得咁危險,第二時我哋做嘢或者計劃就唔會係咁計劃,我哋 26 嗰個優次一定要擺得高啲,所以我諗都希望即係處方留意,同埋儘量去睇下有咩嘢 27 新嘅方法可以令到啲好麻煩嘅法庭都會接納你哋即係呢啲咁嘅舉證,所以我諗你一 28 定要攞呢個新嘅科技去幫助你哋搜證。 29 袁子諾先生:係,明白嘅,主席。其實我哋都係即係一直探索緊呢一個科技嘅應用,喺我哋 30 即係我估唔淨只吸煙,其實成個職安健個方向,我哋都喺度朝呢個方向行緊嘅,唔 31 該主席。 32 陳健波議員:係,袁生,我想問一問你,個棚網個物料即使係阻燃,佢本質都係尼龍嚟,咁 33 如果你擺喺度掛一兩年,日曬雨淋之下,佢嗰個阻燃功能一定會大幅下降。而且況 34 且即使係如果係有大火,其實對即使阻燃都唔頂得幾耐,都係會燒著。所以而你哋 35 頭先有啲文件都有講,嗰個棚網嘅作用就係會保護工地嗰啲人免受上面跌落嚟嗰啲 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十六天

61 本謄本由Epiq 編製 嘢,物料、工具同埋嗰啲廢料擊中,但係其實有業內人士都有講,佢話其實你係唔 1 係真係需要呢個棚網,因為其實如果你真係驚啲嘢跌落嚟,你用一啲竹嘅即係向上 2 嗰啲(English Spoken),所謂即係可以捕捉呢啲跌落嚟嘅嘢,其實已經達到 3 同樣嘅功能。所以我就想問一問你會唔會都研究下,其實即係權衡個利弊之後,棚 4 網係唔係真係需要呢?因為我喺度諗緊,如果你再譬如裝修多一兩年,一樣完全係 5 會令到佢燒得好緊要,即係究竟嗰個利弊,有棚網,冇棚網,你哋會唔會再作一個 6 詳細啲?或者以前有冇做一個研究? 7 袁子諾先生:好,陳委員,或者我解釋番少少。其實點解有個棚網我哋需要,其實因為係根 8 據《建築地盤(安全)規例》第49(1)條,一個即係話防止高空墮物而撃傷到下方 9 嘅工人,所以有呢個咁嘅要求嘅。但其實我哋睇番例,其實採取一個合理嘅措施, 10 即係其實陳委員其實都係有一個好嘅建議,究竟棚網係唔係真係一個需要,或者有 11 冇其他更加好嘅替代品,其實我哋可以呢個係我哋即係可以深入去研究下嘅呢個。 12 陳健波議員:但係你研究下,呢個好重要我覺得,因為如果你冇咗,你就少咗好多風險根 13 本,同埋啲人唔使困咁耐,你圍住人哋兩年點搞真係。 14 袁子諾先生:好。 15 陸啟康法官:各個涉事方有冇問題想提問?孫大律師。 16 孫靖乾資深大律師:好,袁先生,有兩三個問題想同你跟進番嘅。第一個就係頭先啱啱講到 17 嗰個棚網嗰度,亦都即係李大律師都有問過,就係話你而家即係有一個新嘅措施, 18 就係你其中講到就係話其實屋宇署都會係有一個清單,係佢哋認可嘅一啲實驗室, 19 咁佢係要喺嗰個認可清單裏面嘅實驗室去做或者獲取嗰個相關嗰個阻燃性證書。 20 袁子諾先生:係。 21 孫靖乾資深大律師:除此之外,就我想你睇多一個係屋宇署出嘅一個作業嘅指引,就係呢個 22 J1-2/6200 頁,呢度就係我哋見到屋宇署所出嘅一個《作業備考85》,嗰個日期 23 應該喺大火之後,2025 年12 月份就係發出嘅,呢個文件你之前有冇機會去睇過? 24 袁子諾先生:我睇過嘅。 25 孫靖乾資深大律師:或者我哋可能係直接去到6205 頁,呢度我哋見到係有一個比較容易 26 睇,有個圖表嘅,即係我嘅理解就係除咗譬如話頭先講到嗰個證書方面,即係話有 27 一個認可嘅實驗室,呢個就係即係可能勞工處嘅同事佢係可以作為有一個參考,或 28 者係即係可以跟,有一個標準。 29 袁子諾先生:係。 30 孫靖乾資深大律師:但係實際上你會唔會知道其實屋宇署呢一個《作業備考》裏面,係唔係 31 都有講過話無論係承建商,以至係屋宇署都係額外地會再做一個採樣去抽查,同埋 32 係會去做一個檢驗,呢個你知唔知道? 33 袁子諾先生:據我所知,佢哋係會做呢個。 34 孫靖乾資深大律師:係,同埋我哋譬如睇而家呢個第6205 頁呢度,你會見到其實佢都有將 35 成個嘅流程係用一個圖表嘅形式顯示咗出嚟,譬如會可以見到佢係會有一個實地嘅 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十六天

62 本謄本由Epiq 編製 取樣;咁亦都會即係有個場外嘅取樣等等;亦都即係會係有一個咁樣嘅工序係話點 1 樣去做,即係呢個係唔係--你可唔可以解釋下即係站在譬如話屋宇署嚟講,你嘅理 2 解,佢哋係會根據呢個新嘅《作業備考》,佢係會點樣樣去進行呢個抽查,呢個清 3 唔清楚呢? 4 袁子諾先生:其實呢度我相信交畀屋宇署,就會較為可以具體啲。 5 孫靖乾資深大律師:較為具體? 6 袁子諾先生:係。 7 孫靖乾資深大律師:但係你知道屋宇署有呢個咁嘅《作業備考》嘅? 8 袁子諾先生:有嘅,係。 9 孫靖乾資深大律師:好,明白。好,跟住我就第二樣嘢,我都會想再同你澄一澄清番嘅。頭 10 先就關於嗰個地盤即係如果有工人吸煙等等嘅問題,首先李大律師都係有反覆問咗 11 你幾次,就係話其實無論係喺現行嘅法例或者喺新嘅法例,佢覺得都有個問題,就 12 係你哋即係要發現到有工人去食煙,咁先至可以採取行動。但係頭先你解釋咗,就 13 係現有嘅法例同新嘅法例嘅其中一個分別,就係話新嘅法例就係直情係會將呢一個 14 喺地盤裏面係食煙呢個行為就係列作直情係一個即係違法嘅行為,所以如果喺咁嘅 15 情況,即係有任何相關嘅證據可以證明到係食煙嘅時候,你哋都可以做嘢。第二樣 16 嘢我就想問一問,就係話你都頭先講咗有三方面嘅,其中第三方面就係針對嗰個承 17 建商,即係個(English Spoken)。 18 袁子諾先生:係。 19 孫靖乾資深大律師:你就有講過,就話其中嗰個修訂就係針對嗰個CSSR 嘅第56 條,就係 20 話佢哋係要去採取所有嘅合理措施,去令到喺地盤裏面嗰啲工人唔好食煙嘅。 21 袁子諾先生:係。 22 孫靖乾資深大律師:可唔可以解釋下,如果佢話要採取所有合理措施嘅時間,係唔係一定你 23 要直情係發現到有工人係食煙,定係話如果發現唔到有工人食煙嘅情況,但係你都 24 可以針對佢所採取嘅措施,譬如話有冇足夠嘅罰則,或者有冇一啲其他嘅即係管理 25 嘅系統,而可以針對呢樣嘢係向嗰個承建商去作出一個檢控嘅呢? 26 袁子諾先生:或者我哋可以咁講,主席。其實頭先大律師都講,其實係話喺頭先我講嘅話修 27 訂咗56 之後嗰個法例嘅要求。其實仲有一樣嘢我趁呢度都想補充番,就係頭先我 28 根據Cap 371,即係嗰個《吸煙(公眾衞生)條例》嗰度,其實工作地點嗰個負責 29 人喺嗰個法例框架底下,佢有權可以將吸煙嘅人士趕離嗰個地點嗰度,咁呢個首先 30 我想補充番先。即係其實個(English Spoken)佢本身其中都係有一個咁嘅權 31 力或者去做一啲防止人士喺公眾地點度食煙,佢有咁嘅能力嘅。 32 或者我回應番孫律師嗰度嗰個講法,其實就係話我哋都要睇實際嘅情況提出檢 33 控,即係話其實我哋都覺得,就係佢如果可能真係冇人食煙,但係原來我哋可能喺 34 個巡查當中發現到佢有食煙嘅跡象,即係譬如可能喺某啲位置,其實個地盤已經實 35 施緊禁煙,點解喺入面成地都係煙頭,呢啲我哋就會有一個佐證,即係我哋有一個 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十六天

63 本謄本由Epiq 編製 證據證明就係話其實佢可能真係做得唔妥當,如果做得好,其實應該唔會有煙頭喺 1 地盤嗰度,所以我哋就會用呢啲咁嘅客觀環境了解番實際嗰個承建商究竟有冇違 2 法,包括頭先所講有冇採取合理嘅步驟等等呢啲,先至我哋作出考慮執法嗰個手 3 法。 4 孫靖乾資深大律師:好,唔該晒。 5 陸啟康法官:個承建商就會話係居民掉啲煙頭落去嘅。 6 孫靖乾資深大律師:所以我諗都係應該全面禁止。 7 袁子諾先生:係,冇錯。 8 陸啟康法官:我喺法庭做得太耐。 9 孫靖乾資深大律師:好,就唔該晒,袁先生。 10 陸啟康法官:仲有冇其他問題?冇。 11 袁先生,多謝你作供,唔該晒。 12 袁子諾先生:唔該,主席。 13

14 15 時01 分時任勞工處總職業安全主任(行動)證人袁子諾先生作供完畢 15

16 杜淦堃資深大律師:主席,今日冇其他證人,聽日會有四位消防處嘅同事嚟協助委員會。 17 陸啟康法官:好,咁我哋聽日10 點鐘繼續。 18

19 15 時01 分聆訊押後 20 (聆訊將於2026 年4 月22 日10 時00 分繼續) 21

FD06256 | 2025_港澳台_香港宏福苑大火_Transcript-(Chinese)_20260422.pdf

分类:06_境外及港澳台调查报告 | 年份:2025 | 地域:香港 | 严重程度: | 场所: | 起火原因: | 来源格式:pdf

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十七天

本謄本由Epiq 編製

就大埔宏福苑火災成立的獨立委員會

聽證會

高等法院原訟法庭陸啟康法官 陳健波議員 歐陽伯權博士

日期:

第十七天 2026 年4 月22 日

杜淦堃資深大律師、俞匡庭大律師、李澍桓大律師、馮天榮大律師及張天 風大律師代表獨立委員會

孫靖乾資深大律師、陸栩然大律師、卓元暢大律師及劉逸冲大律師代表政 府

律政司代表

楊志聰大律師代表置邦興業有限公司

競爭事務委員會代表

呂世杰資深大律師及阮文躍大律師代表市區重建局

合安管理有限公司代表

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十七天

1 本謄本由Epiq 編製

以下內容乃聆訊數碼錄音謄本 1

2 10 時00 分聆訊恢復 3

4 10 時00 消防處助理處長(消防安全)證人翁錦雄先生開始作供 5

6 陸啟康法官:係。 7 杜淦堃資深大律師:早晨,主席、兩位委員,我哋今日第一位嚟協助我哋嘅證人係翁錦雄先 8 生。係,翁Sir,早晨。 9 翁錦雄先生:早晨。 10 杜淦堃資深大律師:麻煩你同其他證人一樣,讀出你面前嘅聲明。 11 翁錦雄先生:好。本人翁錦雄聲明,本人所作的證供,盡本人所知、所悉及所信,均屬真 12 實。 13 杜淦堃資深大律師:麻煩你,可以坐低。係,翁先生你而家係消防處嘅助理處長,你主要牽 14 涉嘅範疇係消防安全,咁講啱唔啱? 15 翁錦雄先生:係,冇錯。 16 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋知道你係喺消防處服務咗大家一段長嘅時間,你係94 年已經加入 17 咗去消防處,所以你服務超過三十年。 18 翁錦雄先生:係,冇錯。 19 杜淦堃資深大律師:為協助我哋今次嘅聽證會你提交咗一份證人供詞,喺文件夾嘅WS1/第 20 89 頁,相信你都會同意面個內容係準確嘅,係咪? 21 翁錦雄先生:冇錯。 22 杜淦堃資深大律師:喺你哋提供嘅資料我哋見到你負責嘅範疇係叫做消防安全總區 23 (English Spoken)? 24 翁錦雄先生:係。 25 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋睇到資料顯示其實你哋涉獵嘅範圍都係相當之廣嘅,好讓大家知道 26 你工作嘅範疇,我睇下以下嘅資料你可唔可以確認呢?其實都係喺消防處嘅網頁我 27 哋搵到呢一啲嘅資料嘅。你哋所牽涉嘅工作包括引用既定嘅要求同標準去執行防火 28 相關嘅工作喇。 29 翁錦雄先生:冇錯。 30 杜淦堃資深大律師:開展同埋評估有關防火工作嘅消防工程研究喇。 31 翁錦雄先生:係。 32 杜淦堃資深大律師:亦都推廣最有效嘅防火方法去配合我哋香港嘅發展嘅。 33 翁錦雄先生:冇錯。 34

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十七天

2 本謄本由Epiq 編製 杜淦堃資深大律師:我唔每一項都同你去探討,因為你哋牽涉嘅真係好廣。但係另外有關今 1 次我哋嘅聆訊仲會有制定同埋檢討各項防火嘅政策、訓令、守則同埋法例? 2 翁錦雄先生:係。 3 杜淦堃資深大律師:另外一個關鍵嘅地方,你哋亦都係負責調查建築物消防安全嘅投訴,不 4 過就講清楚就係持牌嘅處所同危險物品就唔係喺你哋範疇裏面,可唔可以咁講? 5 翁錦雄先生:冇錯。 6 杜淦堃資深大律師:嗰個係邊個部門去做? 7 翁錦雄先生:嗰個係我哋另一個總區,就係我哋嘅牌照及審批總區。 8 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係阿... 9 翁錦雄先生:姜世明,助理處長嗰面,係。 10 杜淦堃資深大律師:姜世明,係。另外,你轄下亦都係有唔同部門、唔同嘅課,我哋見到其 11 中同今次有關嘅可能有個叫做支援課? 12 翁錦雄先生:冇錯。 13 杜淦堃資深大律師:支援課就負責制訂、檢討同埋更新有關樓宇改善消防安全部門嘅政策, 14 同埋向消防安全總區提供一啲行政支援嘅? 15 翁錦雄先生:係,冇錯。 16 杜淦堃資深大律師:除此之外,佢哋亦都係負責處理有關建築物消防安全嘅投訴,係咪呀? 17 翁錦雄先生:係,冇錯。 18 杜淦堃資深大律師:正如頭先所講有啲範疇就𠝹開咗嘅,譬如持牌處所、危險品、消防安全 19 嘅裝置設備投訴,嗰啲就會去咗姜世明處長嗰面? 20 翁錦雄先生:係,冇錯。 21 杜淦堃資深大律師:另外,有少少關係嘅,喺你轄下亦都有兩個樓宇改善課,分別1 同2 22 嘅,或者都可唔可以同大家講一講嗰個分工係點? 23 翁錦雄先生:呢個樓宇改善課,其實佢主要工作就係執行番《香港法例》第502 章、572 章 24 同埋636 章,咁就針對一啲喺87 年之前落成嘅樓宇,我哋有個法例係要求佢去提 25 升番佢哋樓宇消防嗰個安全嘅。咁我哋分咗兩組同事,因為我哋喺嗰個過程入面要 26 做一個提升,其實牽涉好多工序嘅,我哋就將佢分咗兩個分區,第一個分區就係負 27 責一啲喺最初期去做一個巡查,同埋去發出一啲指示,話畀市民聽佢個樓宇需要做 28 一啲咩嘢嘅提升,跟住就去配合佢哋去協助佢哋喇,即係去籌組各樣,畀啲資料佢 29 哋嘅。當佢哋去到已經係有個共識嘞,市民之間,佢哋會呢個工程嘅時候呢,佢哋 30 會聘請一啲專業人士去做一啲--入啲圖則嘅,咁當佢聘請專業人士之後,我哋就會 31 將呢個工作就交由咗去我哋BI2,我哋叫做,第二個寫字樓同事負責,呢班同事就 32 會按住嗰個情況一路去幫助個業主,就直至到嗰棟大廈嗰個消防安全嗰啲工程已經 33 完成,我哋做埋驗收,就會完成咗個工作。就係咁分工嘅,大致上。 34 杜淦堃資深大律師:多謝你,因為你轄下嘅部門都有處理不同類型嘅投訴喇,所以我哋有幾 35 方面可能都會需要你嘅協助。首先,你都會明白其實我哋今次聽證會討論咗一個非 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十七天

3 本謄本由Epiq 編製 常重要嘅議題,就係喺大火之前,其實有不少宏福苑嘅居民或者甚至乎有啲唔係住 1 喺宏福苑嘅人士都向唔同嘅部門,就包括消防處去投訴咗或者去有啲查詢,主要係 2 關於火警風險嘅問題。 3 翁錦雄先生:係。 4 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係你都明白亦都有唔少嘅聲音,到今日我哋都仲聽到,就係話我哋去 5 到我哋聽證會嘅第十七日嘞,亦都有聲音講話聽到而家,佢哋都唔係真係好了解, 6 就每一項嘅風險,其實應該係邊個部門去接收佢哋嘅投訴喇?或者邊個去處理相關 7 嘅投訴?嗰個係個職權範圍嘅問題。所以我都想你用呢個機會去講一講番消防處嘅 8 立場,尤其是因為喺我哋呢個聆訊,我知道你證人供詞裏面其中都有畀咗一啲嘅解 9 釋,但係因為唔係每一位市民都睇過嗰啲供詞,所以可能都要麻煩你就幾個範疇講 10 一講,為咗唔好離題,所以我都會有啲可能詳細少少嘅問題想你幫一幫我哋。 11 翁錦雄先生:好。 12 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋喺聽證會度知道,其實佢哋投訴嘅範圍或者嗰啲關注嘅風險有幾 13 個。第一個可能就係關於火警--嗰個防火樓梯嗰個生口嘅問題,琴日聽證會都討論 14 過呢個問題。我哋知道其實喺嗰條走火樓梯裏面,都有好多設施係保障生命安全, 15 例如個防煙門喇,我哋知道開咗生口,有居民亦都擔心會破壞咗嗰個走火樓梯。我 16 想問下你哋就消防處嘅立場,如果見到呢個情況,其實居民係應該投訴畀邊個?同 17 埋邊個部門去處理?你解唔解釋到畀我哋聽? 18 翁錦雄先生:如果係就住樓梯有個生口嘅問題,呢個譬如宏福苑呢啲房署轄下嘅屋苑呢,其 19 實呢個投訴應該就係去ICU 嘅同事嗰度嘅。 20 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白。好嘞,另外一個議題,發泡膠,呢個就直情有人投訴過去消防嗰 21 面喇。大家都知道證供出咗嚟,有人就直頭燒過,我哋陣間都會帶一帶去你睇嗰啲 22 證據同畀消防處嘅投訴。就你而家知道嘅情況,喺大火之前居民關注呢一個範疇, 23 其實佢係應該投訴去畀消防處定係第二個部門? 24 翁錦雄先生:應該係ICU。 25 杜淦堃資深大律師:都係ICU? 26 翁錦雄先生:係,冇錯。 27 杜淦堃資深大律師:好嘞,另外大家都關注嘅棚網,相信畀過嘅喺聽證會嘅證供都有向你轉 28 述或者你有留意,有啲居民就自己去燒,之前亦都有各種各樣嘅人士燒過,我哋知 29 道ICU 亦都有派人去驗過。喺你哋嘅立場,仲有加埋喇,琴日我哋都聽過有啲證 30 供,就係其實呢個(English Spoken)佢哋琴日都有同事畀咗證供,佢哋都講 31 佢睇過啲證書。從消防嘅立場棚網相關嘅投訴又應該係邊個部門去處理呢? 32 翁錦雄先生:ICU 都係。 33 杜淦堃資深大律師:都係ICU? 34 翁錦雄先生:冇錯。 35 杜淦堃資深大律師:好嘞,到最後嘞,琴日亦都探討過呢個問題,工地吸煙嘅問題。我想就 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十七天

4 本謄本由Epiq 編製 係都問一問你,居民有影到相有工人喺棚度食煙,亦都我哋見到其實工地吸煙嘅問 1 題一路都有人投訴,一路都冇處理好,呢個又係邊個政府部門去處理? 2 翁錦雄先生:應該勞工處。 3 杜淦堃資深大律師:勞工處。你唔好介意我咁去講,似乎如果我哋睇番居民關注幾件火警風 4 險問題,我聽你嘅解釋似乎冇一樣關你哋事? 5 翁錦雄先生:係,冇錯。 6 陸啟康法官:因為我諗其實對佢公道少少,亦都解釋過,佢--係嘞,係嘞。 7 杜淦堃資深大律師:我明白。我會帶佢之睇之後嘅--主席,我明白。我... 8 陸啟康法官:因為睇到嗰個... 9 杜淦堃資深大律師:因為亦都有唔同嘅範疇,亦都裏面可能有啲細節係本來可能唔關消防處 10 事,會令到關咗消防處事嘅,咁講公唔公道? 11 翁錦雄先生:我唔係好明個問題,唔好意思。 12 杜淦堃資深大律師:我畀啲實質嘅例子同你去探討。 13 翁錦雄先生:好。 14 杜淦堃資深大律師:我諗我哋睇番你嘅供詞喇,如果我冇理解錯,你嘅解釋呢,你首先同大 15 家喺你個供詞嗰度解釋咗有主動消防裝置同埋被動消防裝置之分嘅,呢個之前聽證 16 會裏面都有人提過,如果我哋睇番你嘅證人供詞第6 段開始,喺91 頁,你向我哋 17 解釋咗就係喺香港,其實消防或者火警安全嘅問題其實有唔同嘅政府部門去處理 18 喇,因為大家都喺一啲法例嘅框架去處理呢啲問題,你講個主要部門係你哋消防 19 喇、BD 喇、ICU 喇,我哋見到你之後去第6 段講到「從一個技術嘅層面,火警安 20 全裏面嘅設施可以分咗做主動同被動喇」,正如我哋所講,咁你亦都引用咗一個叫 21 做(English Spoken),呢個就係BD 嘅文件嚟嘅,係咪? 22 翁錦雄先生:係,冇錯。 23 杜淦堃資深大律師:主動嘅消防裝置,我哋見到你之後有解釋包括啲乜嘢,你呢度講咗譬如 24 個火警警報系統喇,亦都係有啲早期令到大家可以知道有火警同埋去處理個火警嘅 25 系統,例如嗰個(English Spoken )即係個自動撲滅嘅系統,亦都講到滅火 26 筒、個喉轆系統喇。呢啲系統你都話,其實姜世明處長其實佢都喺佢供詞解釋咗, 27 我哋之前都問過佢嘅。你呢度亦都講得好清楚,其實呢啲主動嘅消防裝置,其實係 28 你哋去監管同埋處理嘅? 29 翁錦雄先生:係,冇錯。 30 杜淦堃資深大律師:所以呢個範疇其實係關你哋事嘅。你呢度亦都講咗有關嘅法例基礎,喺 31 第8 段嗰度,亦都有講相關嘅守則,跟住去到第9 段,你就講咗呢一啲被動嘅消防 32 裝置。 33 翁錦雄先生:係,冇錯。 34 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢啲就係我哋今次都有探討過嘞,其實係喺嗰個樓宇結構裏面嘅一部分 35 嚟嘅,所以譬如我哋頭先講一啲逃生嘅措施,例如走火樓梯,中間你呢度亦都講 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十七天

5 本謄本由Epiq 編製 咗,譬如嗰個(English Spoken)即係一啲阻隔火警嘅一啲間隔。 1 翁錦雄先生:冇錯。 2 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係會唔會一個例字係譬如有啲高樓大廈裏面,佢有一層係防火層。 3 翁錦雄先生:係,都可以咁講。。 4 杜淦堃資深大律師:都可以咁講,另外見到呢度防煙門,(English Spoken)係防煙門 5 喇,係咪? 6 翁錦雄先生:係。 7 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢啲你嘅講法就係,呢啲係一啲被動嘅消防措施,而喺第10 段你就跳 8 去講話BD 個角色,你就講,引用咗相關嘅法例。咁講法啱唔啱呢?譬如我哋頭先 9 所講呢啲被動嘅消防裝置似乎就係BD 同ICU 嘅責任,因為佢係樓宇結構嘅一部 10 分? 11 翁錦雄先生:係,冇錯。 12 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想問一問你嘅就係,亦都對要你公道少少,呢個講法你同唔同意呢? 13 唔係每一項被動消防裝置都唔係你哋去規管或者你哋唔會去關注嘅,咁講啱唔啱? 14 翁錦雄先生:啱。 15 杜淦堃資深大律師:因為似乎如果我哋睇番《消防條例》呢,你哋嘅職權範圍同埋你哋嘅權 16 力亦都係好廣嘅。 17 翁錦雄先生:冇錯。 18 杜淦堃資深大律師:相信第95 章,你咁資深你都會熟讀。畀大家睇一睇,文件夾B2/82 19 頁,我哋睇一睇,好讓公眾知道,我哋睇一睇第7 條,第7 條(c)段我哋見到喇, 20 「消防處嘅職責,其中一項就係按情況所需就防火措施及火警危險提供意見。」即 21 係呢個你一定會明白。大家都知道其實呢個就係嗰個法例底下嘅框架喇。就火警危 22 險呢,我哋知道《香港法例》通常喺睇第2 條,如果我哋去--就會有定義,如果你 23 睇番火警危險個定義,77 頁,我見到火警危險其實都定義得幾廣嘅,但係你會見到 24 喺(f)項嗰度佢咁講嘅,係包括「實質上增加火警或其他災難發生的可能性的其他 25 事物或情況、實質上增加因發生火警或其他災難而會對人命或財產造成的危險的其 26 他事物或情況,或在火警或其他災難一旦發生時實質上會阻礙消防處履行其職責的 27 其他事物或情況」。 28 翁錦雄先生:係。 29 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢個係你哋工作上高法例底下要關注嘅事情喇? 30 翁錦雄先生:冇錯。 31 杜淦堃資深大律師:而實質上增加火警發生嘅可能性或者令火警時候令到大家嘅性命財產會 32 有影響嘅事情,正如你頭先都同意嘞,應該就唔係淨係關啲主動消防裝置嘅事情 33 嘅,係咪呀? 34 翁錦雄先生:冇錯。 35 杜淦堃資深大律師:被動嘅消防裝置對你哋(f)項火警危險都係會有極大嘅影響,係咪? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十七天

6 本謄本由Epiq 編製 翁錦雄先生:係,冇錯。 1 杜淦堃資深大律師:所以實際咁嚟講,如果消防處嘅同事你哋去巡視嘅時候發覺有啲系統有 2 問題,例如打個比方個警鐘有問題,但係你哋去巡視警鐘嘅時候亦都發覺有啲被動 3 消防裝置有問題,例如防煙門成日開咗,我諗呢個係最普遍,唔應該㗎嘛呢樣嘢。 4 翁錦雄先生:冇錯。 5 杜淦堃資深大律師:或者有啲防煙門爛咗,你哋係會自己去處理吖,定係你哋會發去畀ICU 6 或者BD 去跟進㗎? 7 翁錦雄先生:呢個要睇情況嘅,因為就住一啲被動式呢啲咁嘅系統或者呢啲咁嘅設備,其實 8 我哋同相關嘅BA 喇,即係Building Authority,即係可能係BD 或者ICU, 9 其實有個好清晰嘅分工嘅。一般嚟講就正如我供詞所講,即係用(English 10 Spoken)去分喇,咁但係有時候落到地有啲做法,譬如可能係頭先你提出嘅話防 11 煙門𠓼開,咁呢個喺我哋兩個--同BD 嘅分工方面,呢個我哋係會用番火警危險去處 12 理嘅,呢個就係我哋部門之間嘅一個分工嚟嘅。 13 杜淦堃資深大律師:換句話講,其實可唔可以咁講呢?其實點樣去分工其實當然我明白要好 14 睇個實際嘅情況,我哋都唔可以寫到好死,可唔可以咁講?但係見到有火警危險嘅 15 事情,你哋一定會去跟進? 16 翁錦雄先生:係,冇錯。 17 杜淦堃資深大律師:係嘞。如果就消防處收到消防系統關閉嘅通知書之後嘞,你有時會出一 18 啲(English Spoken)。 19 翁錦雄先生:係。 20 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係有啲建議,例如喺呢個個案裏面我哋見到個消防栓同喉轆系統關閉 21 咗,咁你哋就話「喂,加番啲滅火筒」。 22 翁錦雄先生:係。 23 杜淦堃資深大律師:就嗰一啲嘅(English Spoken),你哋會唔會都對啲被動嘅消防裝 24 置提供意見?定係你哋都係處理番主動,跟住叫ICU、BD 去搞啲被動? 25 翁錦雄先生:係,如果喺頭先你講嘅情況,就係我哋會處番嗰度消防系統,如果見到一啲係 26 (English Spoken)嘅嘢係喺個分工上係由BA 負責嘅呢,我哋都會通知番對 27 方去安排嘅。 28 杜淦堃資深大律師:譬如我頭先講嗰個例子,你哋會見到有啲被動嘅消防裝置壞咗,你哋個 29 advisory letter 其實係唔會鬥嗰啲嘢,你會叫BD 佢哋去搞,係咪? 30 翁錦雄先生:冇錯。 31 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想你幫一幫我哋嘅就係,因為你公道講咗有唔同嘅情況,如果你睇文 32 件夾B2/1656 頁吖,呢個格式你清楚喇,呢個係你見到最上高,消防裝置停止操 33 作期間,叫人採取一啲措施喇。 34 翁錦雄先生:係。 35 杜淦堃資深大律師:如果你睇番之前嗰幾頁你就會見到嗰個--呢個係點嚟嘅,1653,你見 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十七天

7 本謄本由Epiq 編製 到呢個係就宏昌閣嘅消防處發畀相關人士嘅一封建議喇,係咪? 1 翁錦雄先生:係。 2 杜淦堃資深大律師:跟住你去1656,如果我哋睇你哋嘅《建議信》內容,就宏昌閣發出嘅 3 《建議信》我見到有以下幾項嘅,呢啲如果係咁講啱唔啱?呢啲係一啲既定表格, 4 一啲standard form 嚟嘅。 5 翁錦雄先生:係,據我所知係。 6 杜淦堃資深大律師:係嘞,所以呢啲係打好,你哋係去--覺得唔適用嗰啲係去扠嘅啫,可唔 7 可以咁講? 8 翁錦雄先生:係。 9 杜淦堃資深大律師:我見到(6)就講到明要巡查檢討被動嘅消防措施,例如防煙門,見到(7) 10 糾正有問題被動及主動消防措施。跟住(8),我哋見到減少燃料嘅負荷,例如貨物 11 嘅一啲存放。(9)減少危險品。我想問一問你嘅,第(8)項所指嘅唔係講緊一啲危 12 險品嘅,係講緊乜嘢?因為第(9)似乎處理緊危險品。 13 翁錦雄先生:即係一啲貨物--因為唔係所有物件燒得著都係危險品嘅,即係根據《危險品條 14 例》有一個好清晰解釋邊啲危險品。所以(8)佢所嗰啲就係一啲都會燒得著嘅物 15 件,但係佢唔喺危險品個例法規管之下界定為危險品。 16 杜淦堃資深大律師:如果咁講啱唔啱?即係譬如如果存放咗好多火水、電油嗰啲就危險品喇 17 你哋會覺得係。 18 翁錦雄先生:冇錯。 19 杜淦堃資深大律師:如果存放咗可能其他嘅可燃物品,譬如木材咁,呢啲你就會覺得係8? 20 翁錦雄先生:係,冇錯。 21 杜淦堃資深大律師:所以如果消防裝置停用期間,你哋都會對一啲譬如可燃物料作出一啲建 22 議? 23 翁錦雄先生:係。 24 杜淦堃資深大律師:而似乎亦都對一啲被動嘅消防裝置亦都會有一啲嘅建議喇,但係我明白 25 你嘅供詞,似乎就係當處理投訴嘅時候,就會交番畀第二個部門? 26 翁錦雄先生:冇錯。 27 杜淦堃資深大律師:頭先我哋睇到第7 條嘅時候,如果建築物裏面有啲易燃嘅物料,例如我 28 哋呢個case 裏面見到有啲外牆嘅物料、有啲保護窗門嘅物料,或者有其他建築工 29 程需要用嘅物料,佢哋明顯地會帶嚟一啲火警嘅風險? 30 翁錦雄先生:冇錯。 31 杜淦堃資深大律師:消防處有冇責任提供意見? 32 翁錦雄先生:即係就住嗰啲物料? 33 杜淦堃資深大律師:(點頭) 34 翁錦雄先生:我自己嘅睇法係因為我哋有咁清晰嘅分工,所以其實畀呢個-- 就住呢啲 35 (English Spoken )嘅嘢畀嘅意見,其實由番相關專責嘅部門去畀係最適合 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十七天

8 本謄本由Epiq 編製 嘅。 1 杜淦堃資深大律師:換句話講,如果你哋去到一個維修嘅屋苑裏面,你見到咁啱個屋苑要做 2 工程,譬如牽涉大量嘅易燃物,佢放咗喺大廈嗰度,我哋唔好講封咗窗。呢個--就 3 呢一樣--呢個範疇,可唔可以話都係應該係BD 或者ICU 去提供意見? 4 翁錦雄先生:就住佢擺放幾多物料或者咩嘢物料,就應該係由番BD 或者ICU,但係如果佢 5 擺放嘅物料係喺個逃生途徑阻塞嘅話,我哋係會採取行動嘅。 6 杜淦堃資深大律師:我明白,因為我哋都見到喺宏福苑你哋都有就個(English 7 Spoken),我哋叫做,因為消防車去唔到,係你哋嘅問題。 8 翁錦雄先生:冇錯。 9 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係據你啱啱同我哋解釋咗就係,你嘅證供似乎就係,就算個可能工地 10 裏面擺放咗一啲易燃物,嗰啲係一啲建築物料,呢個會造成火警風險嘅可能,但係 11 呢個都係應該BD 同ICU 去處理,因為佢對於嗰啲物料熟悉啲,會唔會因為? 12 翁錦雄先生:其一,佢對個物料熟悉,同埋其二,因為喺做一啲工程上面,個監管其實專責 13 或者專業嘅部門都係呢個BA 嘅。咁我哋有時去睇,我哋係唔知道--譬如有個工程 14 進行,其實係咪要咁樣做先能夠完成到,我哋冇呢個專業。所以如果我哋貿然去畀 15 一個意見,話唔可以呢啲嘢存在,咁可能嗰個工程係唔能夠繼續進行嘅,所以呢一 16 方面我哋會交番畀BA 嘅同事去負責。 17 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白。所以--我諗我哋講一個例子,如果係咁,發泡膠板,你解釋咗, 18 似乎因為宏福苑居屋,呢個就ICU 去處理? 19 翁錦雄先生:冇錯。 20 杜淦堃資深大律師:如果我哋就咁睇番我哋頭先睇過《消防條例》第7 條,呢一個好坦白咁 21 講,似乎就真係會對火警嘅發生,對於救火,對於會唔會造成人命或者財物嘅傷 22 亡,呢個可能真係一個風險。咁你同唔同意如果我哋睇番第7 條嘅話,似乎就冇限 23 制你哋,或者似乎係你哋應該去處理嘅範圍。只不過係實質嘅分工上高,你--因為 24 你頭先解釋嘅理由,你哋個立場就係ICU 去處理適合啲? 25 翁錦雄先生:冇錯。 26 杜淦堃資深大律師:我諗喺處理每一樣嘅物料上高,可能真係前線嘅同事,尤其是會有時覺 27 得有啲灰色地帶,或者可能有啲重疊嘅,所以畀啲意見有關嘅居民,可能有少少令 28 到佢哋都感到無奈嘅。但係我都想同你去睇一睇番。 29 翁錦雄先生:好。 30 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋明白即係其實有好多唔同嘅個案嘅,我哋喺2024 年9 月13 號, 31 喺宏志閣,有一位喺聽證會出現過嘅蘇曉峯先生,佢其實致電咗消防處個熱線,就 32 話個外牆用緊大量嘅可燃物去封窗,佢覺得呢啲可燃物會造成火警嘅危險。消防處 33 當時你哋嘅接線生就話,相關嘅部門--你哋嘅部門冇相關嘅法規去管封窗呢一樣嘢 34 嘅,個物料。咁佢之後再打多次電話畀消防處,佢似乎得番嚟個答案都係一樣嘅。 35 翁錦雄先生:係。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十七天

9 本謄本由Epiq 編製 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁我哋聽一聽個錄音先,因為我都想對你公道啲。B7。 1 (播放錄音) 2 〔男聲一:你好,消防處一般查詢及投訴熱線。 3 男聲二:哦,你好呀,姓蘇㗎。 4 男聲一:係,蘇生,你好。 5 男聲二:冇,我想查詢關於我哋屋苑做緊一啲大維修。 6 男聲一:唔。 7 男聲二:咁我見嗰啲師傅呢就用嗰啲發泡膠嚟封嗰啲窗呀。 8 男聲一:唔。 9 男聲二:其實會唔會有問題呢? 10 男聲一:你講--你考慮嘅點係? 11 男聲二:即係發泡膠比較易燃呢,會唔會--佢攞嚟做封窗,會唔會有危險性或者咩嘢咁樣 12 呢? 13 男聲一:等一等呀。你嗰度個地址係邊度嚟㗎? 14 男聲二:大埔宏福苑呀。 15 男聲一:宏福苑,佢嗰度係做緊點樣嘅工程? 16 男聲二:做一啲即係大維修,個屋苑大維修嗰啲工程呀。 17 男聲一:唔,明,宏福苑,等一等呀。大維修嘅工程,即係外牆有啲工程? 18 男聲二:係呀,外牆工程囉。 19 男聲一:唔,等一等呀。 20 男聲二:咁佢--佢要保護住啲窗,唔好整花或者乜嘢,咁佢攞咗啲發泡膠嚟封,咁啲--啲- 21 -啲--啲居民可能都會有--有個擔憂就係話,喂,嗰啲發泡膠都係易燃嘅物--物料 22 嚟㗎嘛,咁會唔會有問題呢?係,就係咁樣。 23 男聲一:如果喺我呢度睇呢,即係你問我呢度見喇,就話窗嗰--窗--關於窗戶嗰啲嘅--即 24 係關於窗戶上面用一啲封--用啲咩嘢物料封住嗰啲呢,咁我呢度睇就應該係冇特別 25 話有啲乜嘢規管嘅,係嘞。咁但係如果你有嗰個--你有個擔憂嘅話,咁你都可以做 26 個即係投訴,咁我哋都可以安排番人過嚟睇睇,係嘞。係嘞,你可以作出一個投 27 訴,咁我呢度呢度即係--即係覺得佢嗰個物料嗰度唔合規格呀之類嗰啲,咁可以-- 28 我哋都可以安排番人嚟睇嘅,咁如果你有需要嘅,可以作出一個投訴,咁你而家需 29 唔需要做呢個投訴? 30 男聲二:咁--咁我叫法團搞喇,因為我唔係法團嗰啲人。 31 男聲一:唔,明白,明白,明白嘅。 32 男聲二:好。 33 男聲一:好,好。 34 男聲二:唔該你先。 35 男聲一:好,唔該你。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十七天

10 本謄本由Epiq 編製 男聲二:唔該,好,唔,bye bye。 1 男聲一:唔,bye bye。〕 2 (錄音播放完畢) 3 杜淦堃資深大律師:我明白之後我哋嘅證供亦都會處理呢件事,就係投訴同查詢係有個分別 4 嘅,似乎喺你哋嘅規例裏面。 5 翁錦雄先生:係,冇錯。 6 杜淦堃資深大律師:所以你哋個同事就會問佢「你係咪投訴」,因為投訴個處理方法唔同? 7 翁錦雄先生:係,冇錯。 8 杜淦堃資深大律師:係。但係似乎如果聽你頭先嘅答案咁講,其實呢一個投訴都唔係應該係 9 消防處去處理,應該係ICU 去處理? 10 翁錦雄先生:冇錯。 11 杜淦堃資深大律師:所以如果--當然我哋明白,前線嘅同事有各種各樣嘅問題要處理,但係 12 一個好正確嘅處理方法,應該就係呢個投訴,或者佢呢個查詢,我哋唔好叫佢--將 13 佢點樣去歸類先,其實應該就係直接交去畀ICU? 14 翁錦雄先生:係,冇錯。 15 杜淦堃資深大律師:最理想嘅做法應該係咁? 16 翁錦雄先生:最理想嘅做法。 17 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁好嘞,即係我知道我哋有事後孔明嘅情況,如果前線嘅同事收到頭先 18 嗰個電話,其實係咪應該就話「我記錄低有關嘅事情,我哋幫你轉交去ICU」,係 19 咪應該咁做? 20 翁錦雄先生:喺火燭之前,大火之前,其實我哋就住處理查詢,有時啲同事都會去建議番個 21 市民就係去聯絡番相關嘅部門。咁我哋睇番件事,我哋覺得呢個做法係唔理想,係 22 做得唔好,其實可以講係,所以其實我哋都做咗個檢討嘅。 23 所以其實而家開始已經行緊,就係無論係投訴定係查詢,如果係市民就住一啲 24 消防安全嘅事宜打咗嚟消防局去查詢或者投訴都好,我哋而家係會統一做法就係, 25 我哋會攞市民嘅同意,佢同意嘅情況之下,我哋會幫佢主動做呢個轉介,去轉介畀 26 相關嘅部門。跟住我哋都會去再去同番相關部門--轉介咗,我哋會再同佢聯絡,去 27 確保接收嗰個部門就住呢件事,大家對於個分工係清晰,係佢會去接收,佢哋會處 28 理嘅,咁就確保咗件事唔會話好似投訴或者查詢之後冇人跟進。跟住我哋都會去話 29 番畀嗰個市民聽嗰件事已經幫佢轉介咗畀邊個部門,而佢哋亦都會直接聯絡你,去 30 就住呢件事去跟進咁樣嘅。 31 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白。我--可以咁講,我就聽番大火之前同你哋而家之後個處理方法, 32 似乎都係好唔同,而我哋都明白點解有做呢個改變嘅。但係如--咁去反映啱唔啱? 33 即係當時呢一個我哋見到謄本同聽到錄音,市民去將呢件事帶畀消防處知道,第 34 一,嗰位前線同事就冇轉介,亦都係--當時冇指引去立即轉介,係咪? 35 翁錦雄先生:係,冇錯。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十七天

11 本謄本由Epiq 編製 杜淦堃資深大律師:亦都你問個市民係咪投訴定係查詢,佢亦都未必會好理解其實應該係點 1 去歸類? 2 翁錦雄先生:冇錯。 3 杜淦堃資深大律師:係。所以會有個情況就係,我哋知道佢講緊嘅事情其實一定係同火警危 4 險有關嘅? 5 翁錦雄先生:係。 6 杜淦堃資深大律師:所以如果睇番第7 條,呢個似乎同你哋嘅工作亦都係關嘅,你嘅職權範 7 圍裏面嘅? 8 翁錦雄先生:係。 9 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係當時嘅指引,可唔可以咁講,畀前線嘅同事都係唔清晰嘅,所以有 10 呢個情況? 11 翁錦雄先生:可以咁講。 12 杜淦堃資深大律師:另外有啲情況我哋見到,就係你所講,可能係有啲宏福苑居民投訴過, 13 有啲易燃物,但係佢係塞咗個走火通道嘅,嗰個你哋就會派人去處理嘅,係咪? 14 翁錦雄先生:冇錯。 15 杜淦堃資深大律師:如果我哋睇番另外一個,想你幫一幫我哋嘅投訴,B2/1738。落啲, 16 係。我哋見到呢個應該係你哋嘅系統嘅紀錄,其實係會記錄低一啲嘅投訴同一啲嘅 17 轉介,係咪? 18 翁錦雄先生:係,冇錯。 19 杜淦堃資深大律師:應該聽電話嘅同事就記錄番喺個系統裏面嘅? 20 翁錦雄先生:係,冇錯。 21 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢度就見到個(English Spoken ),你見到上高個地址就係宏志 22 閣,我哋見到呢度就係講,下低個投訴內容就係“(English Spoken)”,發 23 泡膠阻止出入口。 24 翁錦雄先生:係。 25 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁呢個係24 年9 月13 號,我哋知道係一位梁先生喺朝頭早打去畀消 26 防處作出嘅投訴嚟嘅。咁我哋睇--如果我哋係睇番之後嘅紀錄,我哋見到1739, 27 個情況似乎係咁嘅。 28 翁錦雄先生:係。 29 杜淦堃資深大律師:佢就見到嗰啲係易燃物,佢覺得,咁佢覺得躉咗喺度有問題,所以佢咪 30 打嚟消防處。而你哋亦都有處理嘅,你哋內部紀錄係1737。見到有個(English 31 Spoken),去咗睇,咁就係喺9 月13 號已經去咗睇㗎嘞,即係你同事朝頭早打 32 電話,佢晏晝其實去咗睇嘅。之後佢咁講,佢話“(English Spoken)”,跟 33 住你哋都有講番“(English Spoken)on 8 月29 號”,即係呢個應該係打錯 34 嘅啫。 35 翁錦雄先生:係,冇錯。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十七天

12 本謄本由Epiq 編製 杜淦堃資深大律師:因為冇理由係8 月29 號通知番佢。點都好,我想問一問下你就係咁樣 1 樣嘅,如果好似呢度咁,佢哋投訴嘅內容似乎係,第一,就有啲可燃物就阻住到個 2 走火通道,咁同事去睇,就話「嗰個投訴唔成立,因為嗰個唔係一個MOE」,MOE 3 係逃生途徑,係咪? 4 翁錦雄先生:係,冇錯。 5 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係好似如果一條走火樓梯就會係。 6 翁錦雄先生:冇錯。 7 杜淦堃資深大律師:EVA 係緊急車輛通道,我哋知道喺宏福苑裏面主要嗰條路其實係畀消防 8 車入嘅,嗰個就係。 9 翁錦雄先生:冇錯。 10 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢度就講咗話畀咗啲(English Spoken)黎經理,同事冇記錄番喺 11 呢個情況會畀啲乜嘢嘅意見黎經理嘅。 12 翁錦雄先生:係。 13 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,呢個情況我想問下你哋,其實大火之前個處理方法應該係點?而家 14 有冇分別? 15 翁錦雄先生:就住呢一隻投訴,係咪? 16 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔。 17 翁錦雄先生:呢一隻投訴嘅處理方法我--因為呢個就唔喺我供詞裏面,我就冇詳細去即係理 18 解呢件事。但係我睇番呢件事,如果睇番呢個紀錄,其實因為個投訴就牽涉一啲易 19 燃物品,就懷疑佢係阻塞咗一啲逃生途徑嘅,咁同事去睇,就係睇到就係有一啲咁 20 嘅建築物料喺度,但係係冇阻到嗰個逃生途徑,亦都冇阻到嗰個EVA 嘅,所以喺呢 21 個情況之下,個投訴係覺得係唔成立,咁我覺得係合理嘅。 22 咁當然,佢就住話見到係做緊個大型工程,咁佢主動去同管理處聯絡,畀咗啲 23 建議佢,咁我覺得呢個做法係好嘅。 24 杜淦堃資深大律師:就呢一個類型嘅投訴,你大火之前同之後有冇分別? 25 翁錦雄先生:冇。 26 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢個都係照樣咁處理? 27 翁錦雄先生:冇錯。 28 杜淦堃資深大律師:好。我唔會每個投訴都同你處理,但係我想你幫一幫我哋睇多兩個啫。 29 翁錦雄先生:好。 30 杜淦堃資深大律師:另外一個投訴就具體少少,喺9 月20 號有位黃(譯音)先生就打 31 1823 ,佢就講到明自己燒過嗰啲發泡膠板,咁就係發覺就係好易燃,如果睇 32 B2/1343 有個紀錄嘅。就呢個投訴,你睇一睇先。 33 翁錦雄先生:係。 34 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,就呢個投訴,消防處係有落場巡查嘅。 35 翁錦雄先生:冇錯。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十七天

13 本謄本由Epiq 編製 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁你哋嘅同事都見,當日就見到有啲發泡膠喺地面。呢個你證人陳述書 1 有講嘅,第20 段。我可以提一提番你,你嗰個講法,因為大家冇睇過你嘅證人陳 2 述書,如果你去睇番你嘅20 段,你就處理咗呢件事嘅。 3 翁錦雄先生:應該係再後啲,20 段。 4 杜淦堃資深大律師:落啲。 5 翁錦雄先生:呢度。 6 陸啟康法官:第21。 7 翁錦雄先生:21 段。 8 杜淦堃資深大律師:21。 9 陸啟康法官:21 段。 10 杜淦堃資深大律師:919。呢個就係你處理呢個--呢件事,你睇過,你相關嘅證供嘅。而正 11 如你頭先所講,對於呢個發泡膠嘅問題,你嘅講法就係,呢一個係“(English 12 Spoken)”,即係呢個你哋覺得發泡膠呢個問題就唔係你哋嘅職權範疇裏面? 13 翁錦雄先生:係。 14 杜淦堃資深大律師:喺10 月3 號,你哋都有講番畀個投訴人知嘅,我哋見到B2/1337 嗰 15 度。 16 翁錦雄先生:冇錯。 17 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁你用咗一啲你哋嘅術語嘅,你哋講過話唔係一個(English 18 Spoken)嘅(English Spoken)。 19 翁錦雄先生:係。 20 杜淦堃資深大律師:佢就(English Spoken )咗 NFA ,NFA 係(English 21 Spoken),係咪? 22 翁錦雄先生:冇錯。 23 杜淦堃資深大律師:可唔可以咁講?你哋話“(English Spoken)”嘅嗰個講法,換句 24 話講,如果我聽你今日嘅證供,消防處嘅立場就係,就算--喺一個工地裏面,就算 25 有你哋見到大量嘅可燃物,呢個對火警危險會造成影響,基於你哋嘅分工,你哋係 26 唔應該畀建議,而應該直接轉交畀ICU,咁講啱唔啱? 27 翁錦雄先生:我諗呢個投訴牽涉就個問題係因為個市民係擔心就話,嗰啲係可燃,同埋將會 28 貼上個窗度,即係喺個外牆個窗嗰度。咁喺呢一個範疇,喺我哋嘅分工之下,就係 29 最適合就應該係由ICU 處理嘅。咁至於你話有啲可燃物品擺咗喺啲空地度,咁呢個 30 就真係唔能夠話係一個直接會影響到個火警危險,因為其實喺任何街道都可以有一 31 啲可燃物品存在。 32 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白。 33 翁錦雄先生:所以如果投訴同事係斟酌咗喺會黐上窗門呢個範疇度。 34 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係換句話講,如果聽--即係如果我哋去理解你嘅講法,你哋嘅立場應 35 該就係,因為同建築物料有關,嗰個可燃性要去測試或者去探討。雖然你哋可能都 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十七天

14 本謄本由Epiq 編製 會同意嗰樣嘢係可燃,而亦都會造成一個火警危險。但係因為佢係建築維修嗰個工 1 程嘅一部分嘅工程物料嚟嘅,所以呢個你哋就唔應該係你哋去處理? 2 翁錦雄先生:係,喺個分工上面係咁樣安排。 3 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係個講法就係“(English Spoken)”,呢個我明白係一個術語 4 嚟嘅,但係就可能大眾市民去睇,好多人會覺得搵啲發泡膠封住個窗真係會造成一 5 個火警危險嚟,而我諗你嘅解釋就係話,因為個分工,雖然呢個可能係一個火警危 6 險,但係基於你哋嘅分工,你哋都唔會去處理,可唔可以咁講? 7 翁錦雄先生:係,我哋會轉介番畀合適嘅部門去處理。 8 杜淦堃資深大律師:就呢一個個案,我哋見到呢個相關嘅紀錄,你喺供詞裏面亦都有處理 9 過。你可唔可以同大家解釋一下,咁喺呢個情況之下,你哋係做咗啲咩嘢? 10 翁錦雄先生:我哋做完個--個同事去做完嗰個巡查,就發覺咗件事應該係由ICU 同事去負 11 責。咁佢就將嗰個調查結果通知番個市民,個同事今轉係冇做--特別做一轉--個轉 12 介嘅,因為其實佢睇番個資料,1823 喺通知消防處就呢個投訴,其實亦都同時已 13 經通知咗ICU 同事。 14 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係打1823 嘅時候,其實就會--ICU 嘅同事都會知嘅,喺系統睇到? 15 翁錦雄先生:我哋睇到--同事睇到個紀錄,就話1823 已經同時轉介咗畀ICU,即係同事睇 16 到紀錄睇到,所以就冇再去特別做一個轉介,因為ICU 已經知悉呢件事。 17 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白。而而家你哋新嘅政策底下,嗰個做法就可能唔同,係咪?如果有 18 個咁嘅查詢? 19 翁錦雄先生:如果有咁嘅查詢,係,我哋會--件事亦都係ICU,呢個分工方面就冇變嘅,我 20 哋個睇法都係一樣嘅,不過我哋嘅同事就會係會同ICU 去聯絡,即係確保佢係會接 21 收呢一個--呢一隻case,會去處理。跟住我哋都會通知番嗰個投訴人嘅。 22 杜淦堃資深大律師:之後亦都有類似嘅投訴嘅,譬如我哋喺聽證會度睇過,我唔打算花好多 23 時間,譬如我哋B6/4507。B6/4507,呢個我哋喺聽證會度都睇過呢個電郵,呢 24 個直接由一位麥先生就係寫畀你哋(English Spoken)嘅電郵嚟嘅,佢亦都係 25 擔心呢個消防風險嘅問題,佢亦都係foamboard 嘅問題。 26 我哋見到喺B6/4506,高級消防隊長伍先生亦都向上司回覆咗,佢就話打咗 27 電話畀麥先生跟進,麥先生提到--伍先生亦都提到“(English Spoken)", 28 佢自己畀咗啲(English Spoken )嘅,呢度亦都冇交代過畀過啲乜嘢嘅 29 (English Spoken )佢,咁喺呢個情況之下,我哋後來喺伍先生嘅供詞度睇 30 到,佢就話佢畀嘅(English Spoken )就係叫投訴人就係問BD 或者問 31 (English Spoken)嘅。 32 翁錦雄先生:係。 33 杜淦堃資深大律師:喺你哋分工上高如果聽你咁講,佢呢個答案亦都係穩妥嘅,亦都係你哋 34 嘅立場嚟嘅? 35 翁錦雄先生:係,不過佢呢度有少少係應該早啲,就係喺宏福苑嘅情況其實就應該係搵ICU 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十七天

15 本謄本由Epiq 編製 嘅。 1 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係所以亦都唔係一個批評,但係似乎前線嘅同事對於邊個應該去處 2 理,當時可能都係有啲唔清楚,因為佢見到建築物料,所以佢就覺得係BD 或者可 3 能係(English Spoken)? 4 杜淦堃資深大律師:我諗個即係正確啲講法應該係BA 負責呢一part 同事係清晰嘅,只不 5 過就住唔同樓宇係BD 去監管定係ICU 監管,呢一part 可能佢哋係冇掌握得最 6 好。 7 杜淦堃資深大律師:因為相信BD 嘅立場都係好清楚,BD 都係覺得應該係ICU 處理,呢個 8 分工係好仔細嘅? 9 翁錦雄先生:係,冇錯。 10 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢個你哋亦都講,你哋覺得呢個係-- 伍先生解釋話呢個係“ " 11 (English Spoken)",即係唔喺你哋嘅職權範圍裏面? 12 翁錦雄先生:冇錯。 13 杜淦堃資深大律師:我諗個問題個癥結喺呢度嘅,我哋之後睇到一啲宏福苑群組居民嘅 14 WhatsApp 嘅溝通,大家諗起有火警風險,可能第一個諗起嘅部門都係消防處,呢 15 個我相信大家唔會怪當時投訴人嘅,... 16 翁錦雄先生:冇錯。 17 杜淦堃資深大律師:...因為如果我哋就咁去睇《消防條例》,我哋係冇可能知道你哋呢個 18 分工嘅? 19 翁錦雄先生:冇錯。 20 杜淦堃資深大律師:如果睇《消防條例》字面,睇番第7 條似乎都係你哋應該處理嘅範圍嚟 21 添,可唔可以咁講?只不過係你哋內部嘅分工將佢分咗畀ICU。 22 翁錦雄先生:係,咁當然即係要公道啲,如果睇番BO,你都會睇到即係BA 都有個責任去處 23 理嘅。 24 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白,係。但係我講緊即係你哋嘅職權範疇,我當然就係可以睇番《消 25 防條例》。 26 翁錦雄先生:明白嘅,係。 27 杜淦堃資深大律師:而我哋亦都唔再花時間去睇,因為委員會睇過。之後係好不幸地其實鴻 28 毅嘅代表也好,宏業嘅代表亦都好,佢哋亦都係話打過去消防處了解話有冇法例規 29 管呢啲formboard,即係似乎佢哋都係倚賴消防處嘅。 30 翁錦雄先生:明白。 31 杜淦堃資深大律師:至於有冇咁做,你啲同事畀咗咩嘢意見佢係一件事,但係無可否應,就 32 係如果我哋只係睇香港法例嘅話,或者消防喺番你哋部門嘅職權範圍,我哋冇可能 33 知道呢件事唔係你哋處理嘅? 34 翁錦雄先生:係,我諗唔需要去到法律層面添,即係一般消防安全,市民會諗起係消防處, 35 個係好合理嘅我覺得。咁亦都正正因為呢個原因,我哋先至去做咗個檢討,點解話 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十七天

16 本謄本由Epiq 編製 我哋以後收到呢啲市民嘅擔心或者投訴,我哋會主動去幫佢做轉介,因為我哋正正 1 就係明白到市民打嚟消防處提出呢啲事件係好正常嘅一個做法嚟嘅。 2 杜淦堃資深大律師:我諗我都唔再去糾纏呢個題目,因為我諗大家都同意嘅就係當時嘅做法 3 無可否認會令市民可能唔會明白,亦都會可能會被誤導,同意? 4 翁錦雄先生:同意。 5 杜淦堃資深大律師:第二,就係我哋睇番頭先嘅例子,唔係每一個呢啲咁嘅投訴其實都會轉 6 介咗去ICU 或者BD 嘅,因為如果個同事就咁問有關嘅投訴人「你係唔係想投訴 7 呀?」咁佢可能亦都有啲無所適從,因為佢話咗畀你哋知,佢哋都唔識分投訴或者 8 查詢嘅分別,係咪? 9 翁錦雄先生:冇錯,所以正正都係點解我哋就做過檢討,就有統一無論投訴定係查詢,我哋 10 都會做個轉介。 11 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係換句話講,你哋嘅立場其實以後有啲咁嘅嘢,都係應該去搵ICU? 12 翁錦雄先生:係,但係正如頭先我講,市民打嚟消防處,我覺得係一個好合理嘅做法,只不 13 過我哋就睇下嗰個轉介嘅機制點樣可以做得好啲去幫助啲市民。 14 陸啟康法官:或者會唔會以後其實--即係今次就係好似跌咗落去一個唔知或者好灰色地帶, 15 其實即係嗰幾個相關嘅部門,即係包括勞工處、你哋,同埋無論BD 或者ICU,其 16 實一定要有一個多啲嘅聯繫,或者一啲嘅--甚至乎一個(English Spoken), 17 去處理以後一啲嘅維修工程。因為我亦都講過,即係姜副處長--即係助理處長都即 18 係其實呢啲工程其實嗰個消防風險真係好--同埋個後果可以係好大。 19 翁錦雄先生:係,冇錯,其實我哋同屋宇署都已經係(English Spoken )咗一個討論 20 嘅,都係就住一啲樓宇消防安全裏面啲分工,我哋睇下可唔可以再細分清晰啲,同 21 埋亦都係就住我哋頭先所講嗰啲轉介機制兩個部門點樣可以做得好啲,即係呢個都 22 係我哋其實已經開展緊個討論。 23 陸啟康法官:而今次嘅火警就係啱啱正正將呢一個灰色地帶或者唔知邊個管,或者一啲唔係 24 好清楚,將個問題完全浮現咗出嚟。 25 翁錦雄先生:係,冇錯。 26 杜淦堃資深大律師:我都想補充一下,問一問你關於呢樣嘢,如果有人譬如存放咗、用咗呢 27 啲易燃嘅物品喺個大廈嗰度造成咗一個火警風險嘅話,聽你咁講,消防處應該就冇 28 可能會檢控添,因為直頭處理都唔係你哋嘅職權範疇,咁講啱唔啱? 29 翁錦雄先生:即係喺外牆出面,係咪? 30 杜淦堃資深大律師:係。 31 翁錦雄先生:係,冇錯。 32 杜淦堃資深大律師:如果我哋睇番,我亦都唔麻煩你花太多時間,因為呢個我哋之後會同 33 ICU 探討嘅題目。ICU 證人嘅立場,喺古小平先生嘅第一份證人陳述書第58 段我 34 哋睇到嘅,喺文件夾WS1/648 頁,我明白佢呢度所講嘅《建築物(建造)規 35 例》,呢個唔係你哋--睇落啲,Cap. 123Q 你見到,呢個唔係你哋消防處處理嘅 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十七天

17 本謄本由Epiq 編製 範疇嚟嘅? 1 翁錦雄先生:唔係。 2 杜淦堃資深大律師:佢嘅講法如果好籠統咁講,就係佢哋話發泡膠係臨時嘅保護物料,唔屬 3 於一啲結構物上高嘅永久結構,所以其實唔係就相關呢個條例監管,佢哋亦都冇權 4 作出檢控嘅,呢個似乎係大火前嗰個立場嚟嘅。我諗居民會有一個問題,就係如果 5 呢啲係臨時保護物料有違規,ICU 又冇權力去作出檢控,消防處亦都覺得呢個係 6 ICU 嘅問題,咁似乎之前真係有一個監管真空,之後我哋會畀ICU 嘅證人有全面機 7 會去處理呢個問題。但係就你睇,我相信你會同意嘅,因為如果冇問題就唔需要改 8 善,而家改善咗,但係似乎之前嗰個監管真空亦都係幾明顯同埋幾嚴重。 9 翁錦雄先生:我個睇法係其實我唔會講係一個監管真空,因為我哋嘅認知喺個分工上,呢個 10 應該係ICU 係有一個執法嘅情況喺度嘅,咁但係至於ICU 同事當日個處理,我諗 11 我唔方便評論。 12 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白。我諗我哋用第二個事情去再探討呢個問題,但我明白你嘅立場, 13 所以我哋可以快啲。棚網嘞,棚網你喺你嘅供詞第14 至17 段都講到,消防處其實 14 係冇任何規例監管棚網,個有關嘅標準你嘅講法應該係屋宇署同勞工處制定嘅,係 15 咪? 16 翁錦雄先生:係,冇錯。 17 杜淦堃資深大律師:你仲講其實係你哋冇參與制定呢個標準嘅? 18 翁錦雄先生:我哋有參與,個標準即係話要跟咩嘢標準做到阻燃性我哋冇參與,但係就住棚 19 網我哋覺得需要有阻燃性我哋有係參與嘅。 20 杜淦堃資深大律師:因為你哋其實都有畀意見BD 同ICU 嘅? 21 翁錦雄先生:係,冇錯。 22 杜淦堃資深大律師:因為你喺你證人供詞第15.1 段提到,我哋見到呢度講到個APP-70 個 23 《實務指引》,你哋都提到其實你哋係有參與嘅,係咪? 24 翁錦雄先生:係,冇錯。 25 杜淦堃資深大律師:你哋嘅意見,如果我冇估錯嘅話,或者你可以糾正我。就係其實要有幾 26 阻燃嗰個阻燃嘅標準,你哋係會有一個意見嘅,係咪? 27 翁錦雄先生:唔係,其實我哋個意見就係我哋喺一個滅火救援嘅角度去畀意見,就係話呢啲 28 棚網有一定嘅阻燃性,因為要令到--如果火警發生嘅時候,嗰個蔓延就唔可以--即 29 係影響個蔓延。但係因為就住究竟用咩嘢標準,個準繩幾高,因為喺部門之間嘅分 30 工,呢個係BA 個專業嚟嘅,所以都係由佢哋去定究竟要做到幾阻燃先至能夠達到 31 嗰個目的咁樣樣。 32 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係你哋個意見就係話呢樣嘢要阻燃,因為會影響個火勢,似乎我聽你 33 講嘅係咁樣? 34 翁錦雄先生:係,冇錯。 35 杜淦堃資深大律師:至於要有幾阻燃或者要用咩嘢標準,呢個你留番畀佢哋? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十七天

18 本謄本由Epiq 編製 翁錦雄先生:係,因為呢個係佢哋嘅專業。 1 杜淦堃資深大律師:我明白呢一個亦都係你哋消防嘅立場,可能每個政府部門亦都有佢哋自 2 己嘅立場,佢哋自己嘅證人去解釋。琴日有啲證供我都想--同消防處有關嘅,雖然 3 係勞工處嘅同事咁講。琴日喺袁子諾先生作供嘅時候,佢講得好清楚,因為其實勞 4 工處都冇火警嘅安全專業知道,佢哋都判斷唔到嗰個棚架個阻燃性係點,所以應該 5 係佢哋嘅講法,就係佢哋會同屋宇署同埋消防處去攞意見嘅。如果我聽你咁講,就 6 嗰個棚網阻燃問題,其實佢應唔應該問屋宇署--唔係應該問消防處攞意見,佢哋應 7 該問屋宇署,可唔可以咁講? 8 翁錦雄先生:可以。 9 杜淦堃資深大律師:另外,昨日都有李萬邦先生都畀過,出嚟協助我哋。佢證人供詞就咁樣 10 講嘅,係個紀錄係28 段,佢嘅講法似乎係--如果for 我我哋嘅紀錄係WS1/341 11 頁,佢講法就係如果勞工處覺得工地有火警嘅風險或者接獲棚架有關嘅,或者棚網 12 嘅火警投訴,佢哋就會要求要攞個阻燃證書,所以琴日都有證供提及過佢哋會睇下 13 嗰張證書,佢哋點樣去探討證書個內容,琴日我哋講咗,我哋唔再重複。 14 但係佢亦都講到另外一點重點嘅,佢就話佢哋淨係會要求個阻燃證書就核實嗰 15 個內容,佢話佢哋就冇辦法做到,佢嗰個講法,就係如果我哋睇番30 段,喺大概 16 第六行嗰度,佢講到“(English Spoken)"(「職安主任喺核實呢啲證書嘅 17 真確性嘅時候受到限制,因為佢哋缺乏相關嘅知識」),基本上,因為佢唔知道個 18 真偽佢哋冇辦法去處理到。好,就呢一啲嘅事情,我諗消防處嘅立場會唔會係呢啲 19 都係ICU 同埋勞工處應該處理嘅範圍,你哋都唔方便畀意見,可唔可以咁講? 20 翁錦雄先生:就住個證書嗰度同埋個標準,的而且確我哋都冇一個專業去畀到個意見。 21 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁個棚網標準呢個問題聽你咁講嘅話,我應該都係留番問ICU 嘅證人。 22 翁錦雄先生:係,冇錯。 23 杜淦堃資深大律師:可唔可以咁樣去問埋你最後一條問題,關於呢一個範疇。聽你嘅證供, 24 如果覺得啲棚網有問題可能造成火警風險,第一,市民就應該去搵ICU?如果宏苑 25 一個居屋為例子。 26 翁錦雄先生:冇錯。 27 杜淦堃資深大律師:如果係私人屋苑就應該搵BD? 28 翁錦雄先生:冇錯。 29 杜淦堃資深大律師:至於嗰啲棚網係唔係阻燃,有幾阻燃,呢個如果佢哋--以後有人有呢個 30 疑問嘅話,你哋似乎個做法就係你哋都係會轉介嘅? 31 翁錦雄先生:係,冇錯。 32 杜淦堃資深大律師:至於點樣去測試或者去處理係唔係合標,呢個你哋喺火災前同火災後都 33 唔係你哋嘅職權範圍? 34 翁錦雄先生:係,亦都冇咁嘅專業。 35 杜淦堃資深大律師:你嘅證人供詞喺20.2.2 段提到,我哋大家知道即係喺宏福苑大火之 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十七天

19 本謄本由Epiq 編製 前,其實華懋大廈亦都有個棚架嘅火警? 1 翁錦雄先生:係。 2 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁你講到消防處亦都提供咗協助嘅,就話你哋幫屋宇署就會一齊去做咗 3 啲(English Spoken),你講到話有個測試,(English Spoken)本來就 4 係12 月12 號喺你哋嘅學院嗰度進行嘅,但係後來宏福苑大火,就冇發生過呢件 5 事,係唔係咁? 6 翁錦雄先生:冇錯。 7 杜淦堃資深大律師:所以就棚網而言,我諗立場係唔係咁樣呢?雖然你哋覺得大火之前同之 8 後都唔喺消防處職權範疇裏面,但係你哋都認為你哋可以提供到協助,所以你哋同 9 BD 有呢個合作? 10 翁錦雄先生:係,或者我補充多少少,呢個協助主要就係因為我哋可以提供到一個地方,因 11 為我哋喺個消防學院裏面,我哋有啲地方係可以做一啲(English Spoken), 12 所以我哋都係提供咗協助,即係主要係就住提供一個場地方面,同埋可能譬如要燒 13 啲嘢嘅時候,確保安全性,咁燒我哋有同事可以喺度做standby 咁樣。 14 杜淦堃資深大律師:如果要燒嘢都係搵你哋做最穩陣? 15 翁錦雄先生:係,如果我哋喺度嘅,咁我哋都確保到個安全嘅。 16 杜淦堃資深大律師:Okay。好,棚網如果係咁,我理解你嘅立場,我哋留番同ICU 嘅同事 17 去處理。另外一個範疇,我相信你哋嘅立場都係好明顯嘅,地盤吸煙嘅問題,呢個 18 同個火警風險有關嘅,無論係地盤嗰度有冇大量嘅可燃物也好,地盤吸煙都係一個 19 問題,我相信你哋嘅立場都係,呢一個唔應該搵消防,可唔可以咁講? 20 翁錦雄先生:冇錯。 21 杜淦堃資深大律師:就地盤吸煙而言,我聽到你頭先嘅答案,呢個應該係搵勞工處? 22 翁錦雄先生:勞工處。 23 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋見到火警之前嘅情況,我明白你哋有做改善,但係我諗因為我哋都 24 要探討番火警之前嘅情況。因為你提到,就係你喺證人供詞第13 段提到,《建築 25 地盤(安全)規例》第53 條,其實係賦予勞工處就使用有易燃液體嘅地盤可以進 26 行一啲禁止吸煙嘅措施嘅,我哋琴日都同勞工處嘅證人探討過。你哋係大火前如果 27 收到有關地盤吸煙嘅投訴,你哋係咪會直接轉介畀勞工處,你哋都係冇處理嘅? 28 翁錦雄先生:如果係投訴嘅話,我哋係會轉介畀勞工處。 29 杜淦堃資深大律師:如果係頭先講嘅查詢,你就未必轉介? 30 翁錦雄先生:冇錯。 31 杜淦堃資深大律師:如果我哋睇番當時一啲嘅投訴,我哋去B6 睇下4498 頁。我哋見到呢 32 一個係透過政府職安健投訴平台投訴宏福苑工人喺棚架吸煙,你見到下低? 33 翁錦雄先生:係。 34 杜淦堃資深大律師:我唔係好明嘅,就係如果你睇番,呢一個你哋覺得明顯係勞工處需要處 35 理嘅嘢嚟嘅,即係或者仲咁講呢個冇可能關你哋事嘅? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十七天

20 本謄本由Epiq 編製 翁錦雄先生:係。 1 杜淦堃資深大律師:如果我哋睇4495 頁,似乎7 月22 號透過呢個職安健平台嘅投訴,因 2 為涉及火警風險,勞工處就轉介咗畀你哋。 3 翁錦雄先生:係。 4 杜淦堃資深大律師:你哋個立場好清楚嘅,因為如果睇番上半部,你哋就話唔關你哋事嘅。 5 翁錦雄先生:係,冇錯。 6 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係換句話講,之前係我哋我哋呢個,都係我哋啱啱探討嗰個情況,似 7 乎勞工處嘅同事喺大火之前係覺得應該係你哋消防處處理嘅範圍嚟嘅,係咪? 8 翁錦雄先生:我諗個別同事可能係,即係呢個轉介就。 9 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢啲事情即係我相信唔係第一次發生,因為如果大眾市民覺得同火警風 10 險有關嘅應該搵你哋,似乎勞工處嘅同事都係試過咁樣樣嘅,但係你嘅立場就話呢 11 個做法係錯嘅應該係,係咪? 12 翁錦雄先生:係,冇錯,同埋我自己親身冇收過,即係接觸過話有勞工處同事去向我哋轉介 13 喺個工地裏面有吸煙嘅問題。 14 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係如果我哋睇番嗰個轉介,有關嗰個職安健平台嗰個資料先,你去睇 15 番4498,落去下低,當時點解勞動話轉介,因為佢就話罔顧《消防條例》,佢哋 16 就轉介。我相信你就覺得佢哋唔應該一提《消防條例》就搵你哋,要睇下嗰個投訴 17 個內容,係唔係咁? 18 翁錦雄先生:係,冇錯。 19 杜淦堃資深大律師:我諗咁講,亦都要對你哋公道啲。如果政府部門之間就投訴嘅內容都唔 20 知道應該搵邊一個部門,你哋政府部門之間都覺得呢啲轉介可能係唔恰當嘅,我哋 21 唔可以期望大眾市民知道應該投訴畀邊個部門,... 22 翁錦雄先生:冇錯。 23 杜淦堃資深大律師:...當時呢個情況其實唔可以接受嘅,同唔同意? 24 翁錦雄先生:同意。 25 杜淦堃資深大律師:主席,我會去下一個題目,呢個可能係一個適當嘅時間。 26 陸啟康法官:咁我哋休庭,聽證會休息十五分鐘。 27

28 11 時08 分聆訊押後 29 11 時23 分聆訊恢復 30

31 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,翁先生,你好,我哋之後想你幫一幫我哋探討嗰個生口嘅問題。 32 翁錦雄先生:好。 33 杜淦堃資深大律師:你哋嘅立場係咪應該就係--呢啲逃生嘅樓梯、走廊喇,一啲防火嘅間隔 34 喇,佢哋正如你所講,建築物結構嘅一部分,你哋唔主動監管宏福苑居屋、ICU。 35 翁錦雄先生:係。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十七天

21 本謄本由Epiq 編製 杜淦堃資深大律師:雖然係咁,我哋知道個逃生樓梯呢,其實呢個係一個法定嘅逃生路徑嚟 1 嘅啫,(English Spoken)我哋叫做,如果按你哋嘅《消防(消除火警危險)規 2 例》裏面,我哋講緊第95F 章第14 條,如果有人阻住擺咗一啲障礙物喺呢啲 3 (English Spoken)嗰度,呢個就係刑事罪行,就係你哋去處理㗎嘞? 4 翁錦雄先生:冇錯。 5 杜淦堃資深大律師:好嘞,開生口個性質就唔同嘞,雖然嗰個後果可能更加嚴重,即係視乎 6 個情況。宏福苑我哋見到開咗個生口,暫時性佢顯示呢個唔止對居民造成好大危 7 險,亦都對你嘅同事造成好大嘅危險,大家都同意嘅呢樣嘢。 8 翁錦雄先生:冇錯。 9 杜淦堃資深大律師:如果聽你咁講,消防處巡查有關樓宇嘅時候,見到呢個情況,你哋嘅立 10 場,應該就係你唔係直接執法嘅部門,所以你哋唔會運用你哋《消防條例》底下權 11 力,例如去出一啲(English Spoken )或者提出檢控,你哋係唔會做嘅,係 12 咪? 13 翁錦雄先生:冇錯。 14 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想問一問你嘅就係嗰個原因,因為如果我睇番你哋自己嘅政策文件, 15 我哋睇番喺 B2/2172 頁,呢度我哋見到嘅就係一份叫做(English 16 Spoken),你哋嘅內部指引喇。如果我睇番第8.1,呢度講咗你哋要幾快或者你 17 哋去處理一啲唔同風險嘅效率,8.1.1 咁講嘅“(English Spoken)”,即係 18 其實你哋嗰個指引個要求係好高嘅,廿四小時裏面一係就處理咗佢,一係就如果冇 19 問題呢似乎,或者個風險唔係咁大就降格,就變咗做一個冇咁緊要嘅情況嘞。 20 翁錦雄先生:係,冇錯。 21 杜淦堃資深大律師:如果我睇番8.1.1.3,呢度咁講嘅“(English Spoken)”,咁講 22 公唔公道呢?生口呢個投訴如果我睇番8.1.1.3 段所覆蓋嘅內容,照字面咁睇, 23 開咗呢個生口係絕對有可能造成一個迫切嘅危險(English Spoken),咁講啱 24 唔啱? 25 翁錦雄先生:冇錯。 26 杜淦堃資深大律師:而如果有人去向你哋投訴嘅話,前線嘅同事見到呢個情況或者用一個好 27 常理去推斷,其實我相信每一位做--你哋嘅同事因為有消防設施嘅經驗,一見到應 28 該都會覺得唔妥嘅呢樣嘢。 29 翁錦雄先生:冇錯。 30 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋裏面見到係有人向消防處投訴過呢啲生口嘅,亦都有證據顯示似乎 31 開呢啲生口唔係宏福苑獨有嘅情況,有人甚至乎講過話呢個可能係喺工程界係一個 32 慣常嘅做法。首先以你哋消防處嘅經驗,我想知道呢個係唔係一個你哋常見嘅問題 33 或者慣常嘅做法? 34 翁錦雄先生:呢個我哋唔--我哋冇呢個知悉去知,我哋唔係常見到有呢啲情況出現,即係部 35 門同事,我自己做咗三十一年,其實我都冇留意過有呢啲情況出現。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十七天

22 本謄本由Epiq 編製 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白,換句話講,我諗即係你嘅證供好清楚嘞,或者喺宏福苑之前,呢 1 個大火之前,就你所嘅認知喇,就係你唔覺得呢個係經常出現嘅情況,因為如果係 2 嘅我相信你哋都會處理咗。 3 翁錦雄先生:係,冇錯。 4 杜淦堃資深大律師:因為呢個係一個好明顯同埋好大嘅漏洞嚟嘅,你同意嗎?即係我想知。 5 翁錦雄先生:我同意。 6 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋如果睇番相關嘅法例,相關嘅法例裏面呢,當然法例裏面唔可能包 7 含咗每一個情況,雖然呢一個如果我哋睇番你哋嘅政策文件或者我哋睇番頭先我哋 8 睇過《消防條例》第7 條見到呢一個情況,正如你頭先都同意嘞,一定會響警號, 9 而呢個一定係你哋會係關注嘅情況,係咪? 10 翁錦雄先生:冇錯。 11 杜淦堃資深大律師:可唔可以咁樣講呢?換句話講,我聽你咁講,點解會本案有呢個問題, 12 就係消防處,第一,冇見過呢個情況,所以喺以往你哋經驗裏面,唔知道有呢個風 13 險,如果你哋知道嘅,我相信你哋係會處理咗嘅,係咪? 14 翁錦雄先生:我哋會轉介畀番相關部門。我想補充少少,唔好意思,呢一個而家個螢光幕出 15 呢個我哋處理投訴嘅一啲安排呢,其實呢個係基於有個先決條件嘅,就係嗰件事嘅 16 分工係咪落咗消防處度先,係落咗嚟我哋做呢,我哋就跟呢個程序去做,咁樣。 17 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白,所以就算可唔可以咁樣講?就算有一件事明顯地有一個嚴重嘅消 18 防風險,基於分工嘅理由,唔係一定係你哋去處理嘅? 19 翁錦雄先生:我諗係基於--係可以咁講嘅,但係唔係因為分工嘅理由我哋唔處理,係因為分 20 工嗰個原因,點解要分工呢?就係搵一個合適嘅部門去處理,係基於呢一個原因, 21 所以我哋會處理。 22 杜淦堃資深大律師:我諗我哋講嘅嘢冇抵觸嘅。 23 翁錦雄先生:係,冇錯。 24 杜淦堃資深大律師:因為分咗工畀佢吖嘛,你咪唔去處一埋囉,你講緊背後嗰個理由咋嘛, 25 係咪? 26 翁錦雄先生:係,冇錯。 27 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係我想就呢度去問一問你嘞。如果我哋睇番《消防條例》,睇番本案 28 裏面出現過嘅文件,你可唔可以解釋畀我哋聽你呢個嘅分工喺政策上高或者喺法例 29 上高,可能我哋會探討到背後個邏輯或者明白,但係喺你解釋畀我哋聽之前,你可 30 唔可以話畀我哋知,你呢個分工喺邊度嚟㗎? 31 翁錦雄先生:我唔明,即係個分工喺邊度意思係? 32 杜淦堃資深大律師:換句話講,去處理呢啲事情,你哋部門之間,似乎據你所講喇,你哋消 33 防有個好清晰嘅立場就係唔關你事嘅,係咪? 34 翁錦雄先生:係。 35 杜淦堃資深大律師:而呢一樣嘢,如果我冇聽錯嘅話,就係你哋部門之間嘅理解嚟嘅? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十七天

23 本謄本由Epiq 編製 翁錦雄先生:係,冇錯。 1 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢個應該係就你哋對相關法例之下,你哋權責嘅理解,係咪? 2 翁錦雄先生:係,冇錯。 3 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔。有冇任何政策文件,或者有任何指引係講出咗呢啲分工? 4 翁錦雄先生:其實我諗部門之間去做處理嘅事項就係按法例賦予個權利喇,咁喺就住呢啲牽 5 涉到一啲(English Spoken )嘅嘢,嗰個法律賦予嘅權利就去咗相關嘅... 6 (聽不清) 7 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔好意思,你唔係回答緊我嘅問題,可能係我問得唔清楚。 8 翁錦雄先生:唔係。 9 杜淦堃資深大律師:其實我係想問下,因為大家投訴嘅事情,其實係顯而易見係有消防風險 10 嘅。 11 翁錦雄先生:係,冇錯。 12 杜淦堃資深大律師:所以我想問下你就係你頭先講嘅部門之間要分工,喺大火之前,我明白 13 可能係你哋唔同部門對法例嘅演繹。但係有冇任何文件或者任何黑紙白字嘅嘢係反 14 映咗呢啲分工㗎? 15 翁錦雄先生:我嘅印象係冇。 16 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁大家點知道個分工係咁嘅呢?即係你啲同事點知?Labour 嗰面又點 17 知?ICU 嗰面點知呢?係咪第一,即係如果冇黑紙白字嘅嘢,同事點樣去理解?點 18 解有呢個認知或者? 19 翁錦雄先生:呢個就係就住其實一路以嚟部門之間個合作都係咁嘅,當然,部門之間喺過去 20 咁多年呀,其實亦都有啲會議、亦都有啲討論,咁呢個係部之間嘅認知嚟嘅。其實 21 我哋同屋宇署亦都就住呢一個認知,大家係好清晰嘅。 22 同埋我想補充少少就係就住生口嗰個問題,好明顯喇,即係你都講得好啱係一 23 定係有一個火警危險或者風險存在,呢個亦都證明咗係喇。喺我想帶出點解分工會 24 話係最適合嘅部門去處理呢,個問題就係因為呢個生口如果佢將個窗拆咗,佢裝番 25 一塊--一啲嘢去封番佢,但係可以開到喇當然係,如果佢已經係用咗係一個有足夠 26 阻燃性嘅物料去做呢個情況,其實可能唔會出現今次大火呢個咁嚴重嘅情況。 27 同埋仲有一樣嘢就係,又係講嗰句,點解會分工?就係因為我哋係唔認知,亦 28 都唔得悉原來做一個工程,其實係咪一定要做一啲咁嘅生口啲工人先能夠出到個棚 29 度做嘢。咁就住成個工--唔好意思,就住成個工程裏面要做係呢啲工程呢,其實就 30 因為係BA 就會去監管,所以佢哋先係--即係我哋所以個分工係咁囉,因為佢哋先 31 有專業去睇嗰個阻燃性,同埋究竟個工程係咪需要呢啲嘢嘅存在或者出現咁樣。 32 杜淦堃資深大律師:我明白背後嘅邏輯,即係我諗大家都聽得明。但我想同你探討嘅係另一 33 樣嘢,因為政府部門唔係一個人,你哋有好多員工,我哋頭先睇到嘅例子就係喺部 34 門之間,可能都會出現過大家個職權範圍有不同嘅演繹,就食煙一樣咁簡單嘅嘢都 35 會有,生口呢一個係更加嚴重嘅問題。同埋點解大家會咁關注,就係個生口我相信 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十七天

24 本謄本由Epiq 編製 你都會明白,呢個係直接影響咗好多喺火警裏面嘅人唔能夠逃生。所以我先有--我 1 哋亦都要好公道咁同你講,雖然係一個法律嘅問題,但係每個部門嘅權責,其實我 2 哋要睇相關法例。如果我哋睇番《消防條例》第7 條裏面你哋需要處理嘅範疇,跟 3 住睇第8 條同9 條,你哋嘅權力,你哋係絕對有能力去處理呢一個問題,而你哋絕 4 對一見到,我相信會響警號。 5 翁錦雄先生:係,冇錯。 6 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係似乎你嘅講法就係唔處理有一個邏輯,但係嗰個邏輯就係靠大家部 7 門嘅經驗。呢一個範疇喺宏福苑大火之前就冇任何文件去解釋相關嘅邏輯或者記錄 8 低有啲咁嘅事情嘅時候應該點做,可唔可以咁講? 9 翁錦雄先生:可以,不過我想補充少少,喺另外一啲情況都會睇到呢個分工嘅,就係頭先我 10 所講,其實我其中一個範疇就係一啲舊式樓宇嘅提升。其實喺舊式樓宇提升方面 11 呢,窗戶--喺樓梯嘅窗呢,其實以前一啲設計可能係開得嘅,但係如果根據個572 12 條例其實佢係要做番一個緊窗,唔開得㗎。咁就住執行呢個條例裏面呢,其實屋宇 13 署同我哋都會就住自己個範疇去出一啲指示,而窗門呢一個情況就係由屋宇署同事 14 嗰邊去負責嘅,嗄,咁樣。 15 杜淦堃資深大律師:或者咁去講喇,我諗今次聽證會我哋反映到一樣嘢喇,其實各個部門都 16 會同意之前個情況係不足嘅,我哋喺今次嘅聽證會我數唔到我哋聽過幾多次「唔理 17 想」。但係就處理呢一啲你哋部門之間分工嘅情況,第一,我諗你唔會否認,之前 18 係唔理想,你要答我,記錄唔到你岋頭。 19 翁錦雄先生:唔好意思,我諗我個演繹係分工--係嘞,即係部門之間個認知,對於分工認知 20 係唔理想嘅。 21 杜淦堃資深大律師:溝通亦都唔理想,係咪? 22 翁錦雄先生:冇錯。 23 杜淦堃資深大律師:而嗰個溝通唔理想,嗰個背後個原因就係各個部門可能就自己嘅法例底 24 下,嗰個權責個演繹未必一致? 25 翁錦雄先生:係。 26 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔好意思,主席,我哋睇一睇仲需唔需要處理另一個範疇。或者好簡短 27 咁去睇下你幫唔幫到我哋,因為你哋有好多個唔同證人,所以如果唔係你嘅範疇, 28 我哋可以問其他嘅同事。 29 翁錦雄先生:好呀。 30 杜淦堃資深大律師:如果我哋睇《建築物條例》B2/318 頁,16(1)(b)(ii),所有建築 31 物其實都應該係設置一啲按消防處處長公布嘅實務守則,有個最低限度所需嘅消防 32 裝置嘅,呢個係好明顯法律底下規定嘅。雖然呢個喺《建築物條例》裏面,但係呢 33 一方面就係你哋嘅責任,你哋去制訂,係咪? 34 翁錦雄先生:冇錯。 35 杜淦堃資深大律師:而呢個要求呢,消防處喺邊度公布呢?就係你哋有個守則嘅,中文就係 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十七天

25 本謄本由Epiq 編製 《最低消防裝置及設備守則》喇。 1 翁錦雄先生:係,冇錯。 2 杜淦堃資深大律師:(English Spoken),過去幾個星期我哋大家都知道,亦都唔需要 3 重複。宏福苑知道個火警警報系統嚴重失效、個警鐘唔響喇,佢哋搵咗註冊嘅消防 4 承辦商去入咗個(English Spoken),我哋呢啲唔再重複。我哋呢個聽證會裏 5 面,我哋都問咗你嘅同事姜世明先生,去探討番嗰個調查,有關嘅機制有冇改善嘅 6 空間,呢個我都唔需要你再補充。但係有一點同你嘅工作有關,主席亦都問咗姜處 7 長,佢亦都同意嘅。其實我哋而家去睇,喺大型樓宇維修,搭咗棚,有咗棚網,做 8 喺外牆工程嘅候,呢一個情況之下做工程,個火警風險差唔多係最高,你同唔同 9 意? 10 翁錦雄先生:同意。 11 杜淦堃資深大律師:而喺呢啲大型嘅工程進行期間,除咗被動消防裝置嘅問題,我哋見到有 12 時因為部分嘅系統閂咗,有啲主動嘅消防裝置其實係要提升嘅,我哋見到譬如而家 13 你個喉轆系統閂咗,或者甚至乎個火警鐘閂咗,我哋見過有關嘅指引都係話躉多幾 14 個滅火筒。 15 翁錦雄先生:係。 16 杜淦堃資深大律師:似乎係冇其他嘅裝置係可以令居民及早知道有個火警風險或者可能有火 17 警嘅? 18 翁錦雄先生:係。 19 杜淦堃資深大律師:就呢一方面你嘅證人供詞第18 至19 段其實講咗一啲可以考慮嘅地方, 20 你講過話可以考慮喺大廈加裝一啲火警嘅探測系統或者有啲新式啲嘅大廈有啲自動 21 灑水器。當然,我哋只係講緊呢啲可行性,亦都唔係每一棟大廈都可以做到。但係 22 我哋知道宏福苑係80 年代興建,其實香港大部分做樓宇維修嘅大廈都係呢啲舊樓 23 嚟,似乎我哋而家睇到,大家考慮緊嘅措施呢,都係幫唔到呢啲舊樓去減低佢嗰個 24 火警嘅設備嗰個--或者提升相關嘅設備,就呢一方面你有冇補充?換句話講,提呢 25 啲可行性係啱嘅,但係我哋到今時今日都見唔到有啲咩實質嘅嘢係可以幫到呢啲舊 26 樓,去通知番啲居民係話,「喂,可能而家要走火警」。可唔可以用呢個機會同大 27 家都探討一下? 28 翁錦雄先生:好呀。就住如果係火警個警報系統嗰度,其實雖然唔係我負責嘅,係姜先生嗰 29 邊負責嘅。其實佢哋都係已經係--據我所知係搵緊一啲--物色緊一啲可以做一啲臨 30 時火警鐘響到個情況,即係如果個火警鐘係壞咗唔響嘅,佢哋係物色緊一啲可行嘅 31 替代方案,我知佢哋其實都好似物色到類似一啲比較佢哋都覺得認為可以接受嘅情 32 況,佢應該就同業界係喺度商討緊嘅。 33 至於喺個棚網,即係譬如搭一啲大型維修棚網出面呢個呢,我供詞入面所講就 34 因為係當日就有啲提出話,可唔可以做呢啲(English Spoken)咁樣,但係其 35 實部門而家我哋都著手做緊就係--探討緊究竟喺個搭棚時候,我可唔可以喺個棚出 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十七天

26 本謄本由Epiq 編製 面,即係個外牆出面加裝一啲消防系統,而能夠令到如果不幸有火警發生嘅時候係 1 咪可以做到一啲即係阻止火勢蔓延,甚至救熄個火。但係呢個的而且確係一個比較 2 好複雜嘅問題,因為會牽涉到當然錢喇。同埋因為一般我哋就住大廈要去加裝一啲 3 消防設備呢,因為嗰個永久㗎嘛,當然需要喇,但係做維修唔係永久,即係可能係 4 一個時間喇,所以我哋真係要攞個平衡喇,即係真係要攞個平衡喇。同埋都要睇下 5 如果我哋要有啲係灑水嘅系統,咁究竟一啲舊樓喇,佢個外牆或者佢個樓宇本身究 6 竟承唔承受到呢啲重量呢咁樣?咁但係我哋係探討緊一啲唔同嘅方案嘅,我哋做緊 7 嘅。但係而家即係喺呢一個(English Spoken),我哋未係好確實話搵到一啲 8 好--已經覺得係好可行嘅方法囉,但係我哋會繼續做嘅呢一方面係會。 9 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白,多謝你,翁先生。 10 陸啟康法官:委員有問題。 11 歐陽伯權博士:唔該,翁生,我哋今朝用咗好多時間喺度講分工呢件事。我相信你都會贊成 12 喺一個市民嘅角度,當佢喺對於火警嘅安全方面有問題,消防係佢哋嘅第一選擇。 13 所以佢打電話入去消防問,我覺得係一個好正常。但係喺佢哋嚟講,佢哋永遠係唔 14 知道邊個分工,即係應該係呢件事就係某一個部門處理。請問而家嘅機制,喺現今 15 消防嘅機制裏面,有冇一個制度係消防處同或者法團或者物管公司係有一個交流, 16 信件又好,去解釋佢哋去聽,呢啲咁嘅情況之下就應該同邊個聯絡呢?唔該。 17 翁錦雄先生:而家冇特別一個機制話一定要同物管公司或者係一啲IO 去聯絡呢啲情況嘅。 18 但係正如我頭先都講過喇,我哋而家即係就住嗰個轉介或者投訴個機制,我哋係會 19 做多一步喇。咁呢啲其實我哋會喺唔同嘅情況,我哋都希望用番一啲我哋部門一啲 20 對外嘅一啲舊宣傳嗰啲唔同嘅平台,或者我哋去做一啲講座嘅時候呢,我哋都會將 21 呢一個信息係帶番畀市民聽囉。 22 歐陽伯權博士:咁而家呢個機制係好--即係平時係幾耐發生㗎請問? 23 翁錦雄先生:其實呢個機制係真係因為喺大火之後,我哋睇番見到有啲市民聯絡咗消防處, 24 但係可能得個回覆就係唔係我哋負責嘅範疇,我哋亦都覺得即係對於市民有個--好 25 無助呀,我想講話即係有個好無助,我哋覺得呢個做法係唔應該出現嘅,所以我哋 26 就係啱啱其實係由今個月正式開始咗,我哋做咗一啲佢嘅探討番究竟點樣做最好 27 喇。所以我哋而家喺今個月就正式行咗呢就係頭先我講,無論係投訴定係轉介,總 28 之市民搵得我哋消防處,就住一啲樓宇消防安全嘅問題呢,我哋係會攞佢嘅同意去 29 主動幫佢做個轉介,轉介完之後呢,我哋會聯絡番接收嗰個部門去聯絡,去釐清究 30 竟大家對於呢個分工,大家都清晰嘞,哦,係嘞,接收個部門都認同呢件事應該由 31 佢處理嘅。咁變咗呢件事,個市民嘅擔心或者佢嘅投訴係真係有一個最適合嘅部門 32 去處理,我哋跟住就會話番畀個市民聽「相關部門已經係接收咗你嘅投訴,我亦都 33 將你嘅資料畀咗佢,咁亦都佢會直接同你聯絡。」咁就希望能夠令到市民當去做一 34 個投訴或者提出一啲關心嘅時候呢,佢真係知道政府已經有一個最合適嘅部門係處 35 理緊咁樣。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十七天

27 本謄本由Epiq 編製 歐陽伯權博士:希望你哋快啲做到喇,唔該,唔該。 1 陸啟康法官:即係我諗頭先... 2 陳健波議員:我問埋先,唔好意思。都係跟進番呢個分工問題,頭先你講到喇,譬如我哋舉 3 個例,就消防處會轉介ICU 或者其他部門喇,咁但係ICU 或者其他部門都未必能 4 夠處理㗎嘛,變咗就即係冇人去處理嘞,結果就不了了之。但係我問題就係可唔可 5 以有一個兜底嘅制度,譬如頭先你講到,你畀ICU,ICU 又處理唔到,係咪可以大 6 家又覺得有一個好大嘅風險係咪可以大家商量,即係將來嘅制度喇,有一個跨部門 7 嘅處理,就係話呢啲係大家覺得係有消防嘅風險嘅,真係或者好嚴重嘅事。我哋而 8 家所有嘅制度都係根據以前嗰個社會嘅需要去變而成立,但係隨住個社會不斷進 9 步,或者有好多新風險出現㗎,你都要面對一個將來嘅問題。如果你見到有風險或 10 者係嚴重嘅,其實係咪應該要提升到跨部門去處理?因為比較中低層嗰啲人真係按 11 本子辦事㗎嘛,但係你高級嘅或者管理,就係要做呢樣嘢,就係話你要預見未來或 12 者遇到新嘅問題就早啲去處理,會唔會諗呢個方向呢? 13 翁錦雄先生:其實都會嘅。頭先我講我哋新嗰個制度呢,其實如果有個情況出現,譬如我哋 14 覺得我哋分工覺得係應該係BD 同事嘅,咁但係當我同佢聯絡嘅時候,佢哋覺得, 15 「喂,唔係喎,呢一個--呢一件事其實就即係我哋都未必處理到喎」咁樣嘅。咁其 16 實當然我哋會溝通點去處理喇,我哋即係部門都已經定咗,如果一啲情況我做個轉 17 介之後,而係唔能夠搵到一個合適嘅部門,或者相關部門覺得大家都有啲懷疑究竟 18 係點樣做最好呢,咁呢個我哋自己內部,我哋係會將呢件事係升格,我哋會去到我 19 哋個副處長嗰度,咁佢再去睇清楚件事,由副處長同相關部門嘅管理層去睇下呢件 20 事點樣去安排去做係最好嘅,我哋會有一個咁嘅安排嘅。 21 陸啟康法官:其他有冇--涉事方有冇問題?如果冇,就請政府孫大律師。 22 孫靖乾資深大律師:好,唔該主席。翁Sir,有幾個方面都同你再問一啲問題跟進一下,首 23 先,頭先即係委員會主席同埋兩位委員,咁佢哋都關注到嗰個部門同部門之間嗰個 24 分工嗰個問題。頭先杜資深大律師都問你有冇一啲白紙黑字嘅文件係去--即係喺火 25 災之前,係講關於嗰個分工嗰度。當然我哋明白即係喺而家嗰個火災之後,咁其實 26 消防處同埋其他部門都有檢討會係希望可以係做得更好,亦都會繼續向呢方面係繼 27 續去做好啲。但係我想同你睇睇一啲喺火災之前已經有嘅一啲嘅文件,睇下會唔會 28 係可以反映到一啲部門同部門之間嘅嗰個分工先呀。第一樣嘢想同你睇一睇嘅呢就 29 係,我想麻煩你睇一睇呢個B2 嘅1007 頁嘅,呢個B2 嘅1007 頁呢,其實係其 30 中一個嘅(English Spoken ),我相信應該係屋宇署所發出嘅一個嘅 31 (English Spoken),係關於呢一個嘅消防安全(English Spoken)。 32 翁錦雄先生:係。 33 孫靖乾資深大律師:建築物裏面。有兩個地方我想同你睇一睇,第一個就係喺呢個1007 嗰 34 度有個「定義」,你可以去睇一睇就係喺關於嗰個叫做係(English 35 Spoken),即係一啲消防安全嘅裝置或者配備方面,呢度我就見到,或者我讀一 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十七天

28 本謄本由Epiq 編製 讀出嚟,佢係咁樣講嘅,就話“(English Spoken)”,咁所以第一樣嘢我哋 1 睇到呢,係關於譬如話你頭先喺作供嘅時候都有講過,就話有一啲主動同埋被動嘅 2 消防嘅一啲裝置或者配備。其實呢個據你嘅理解,喺一啲嘅相關即係白紙黑字一啲 3 嘅指引,其實係咪都有一個--好似譬如我哋而家咁樣睇到,都會有一個咁樣嘅區分 4 同埋定義嘅呢? 5 翁錦雄先生:係,冇錯。 6 孫靖乾資深大律師:然後我就再想你睇一睇,都係喺個(English Spoken),我哋再睇 7 一個,第1154 頁,咁第1154 頁裏面,我而家就純粹當係舉一個例子,我哋喺呢 8 度見到就係有講到話嗰個即係“(English Spoken)”,亦即係話關於一啲消 9 防安全嘅裝置或者配備喺維修或者管理方面應該係以下列嘅方式係去進行嘅。咁其 10 中我哋睇到(a)嗰度就係咁講嘅,就話“(English Spoken)”,即係話一啲 11 被動嘅消防安全嘅裝置係應該--尤其係一啲嘅叫(English Spoken),即係可 12 能喺一啲公用嘅地方,包括譬如話可能係喺個大廈裏面公家嘅地方,以至係外牆等 13 等,係應該都係以喺嗰個嘅《建築物條例》規管範圍下,就進行一啲嘅勘察或者係 14 進行一個維修。呢個如果係關於(English Spoken)嘅時候,其實如果喺政府 15 或者係一般嘅理解嚟講,嗰個執法部門會係邊一個部門? 16 翁錦雄先生:會係BA。 17 孫靖乾資深大律師:係,會係BA,咁即係話如果喺一般私人屋苑就會係呢個屋宇署? 18 翁錦雄先生:冇錯。 19 孫靖乾資深大律師:如果係一啲嘅居屋等等,或者公屋嘅話,就會係呢個ICU? 20 翁錦雄先生:冇錯。 21 孫靖乾資深大律師:係。跟住B 嗰度就係講到話“(English Spoken)”,呢度就係講 22 到一啲就係叫做主動嘅消防嘅裝置,咁就係應該由一啲註冊嘅係消防嘅裝置嘅承辦 23 商,咁就係去--即係譬如我哋今次亦都有聽過一啲譬如好似宏泰等等嘅證供,即係 24 係由嗰啲嘅承辦商佢哋係負責要做一個檢視,或者係測試,同埋去維繫等等嘅。 25 翁錦雄先生:冇錯。 26 孫靖乾資深大律師:咁當然呢個消防處亦都會對呢啲嘅承辦商係有一個嘅監管嘅制度? 27 翁錦雄先生:係,冇錯。 28 孫靖乾資深大律師:係,好。所以其實即係如果咁樣講,即係呢個我純粹一啲例子,其實就 29 算喺火災之前,其實頭先杜大律師問你有冇一啲嘅白紙黑字去講一啲部門嘅分工, 30 如果睇番頭先個文件,即係起碼從一個政府嘅角度,其實有冇一啲咁樣嘅--你會點 31 樣即係回答嗰個問題?如果我哋睇咗呢啲咁嘅文件之後。 32 翁錦雄先生:其實呢啲文件裏面,即係唔同部門嘅一啲法例,賦予權利同埋呢啲相關部門出 33 嘅一啲(English Spoken),其實係當中就都係睇到嗰個部門之間嘅分工嘅。 34 孫靖乾資深大律師:好,唔該晒翁Sir,跟住我亦都想再同你睇多一類嘅文件,就係我理解 35 就係話,其實部門同部門之間,如果佢轉介啲個案,就算喺嗰個宏福苑火災之前, 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十七天

29 本謄本由Epiq 編製 其實都有一啲嘅我哋叫做-- 即係可能一啲特定或者係一啲嘅格式或者一啲 1 (English Spoken)嘅,咁我想同你睇一睇。咁當然,喺火災之後,我哋可以 2 再優化,但係我哋睇一睇火災之前有嘅呢啲咁嘅(English Spoken),就或者 3 麻煩你睇一睇,譬如話B6 嘅4469 頁。咁呢一個就係由呢一個消防處,即係如果 4 係要發畀呢一個嘅(English Spoken),或者譬如話呢個屋宇署嘅其中一啲嘅 5 我哋叫做係-- 即係通常係一啲嘅即係格式化嘅,或者係一啲嘅(English 6 Spoken)嘅一啲(English Spoken)嘅形式,咁當然可以有一啲嘅變化嘅, 7 咁我哋可唔可以一齊睇一睇?咁譬如呢度你會見到,就會係由呢一個嘅4469--睇 8 下先,係,4469 頁,咁就會係由呢一個消防處就會係發畀呢個屋宇署,咁譬如你 9 會見到係會有一啲嘅唔同嘅例子,咁舉例,即係譬如如果係發覺係有一啲嘅 10 (English Spoken),喺一個嘅(English Spoken ),即係有啲嘅建築物 11 嘅一啲嘅可能結構,又或者譬如係--譬如我哋見到有啲其他唔同嘅項目等等,即係 12 其實如果有啲適合嘅情況,咁就會可能係方便啲同事就係將嗰個個案就去轉介畀呢 13 個屋宇署,係咪咁嘅情況? 14 翁錦雄先生:係,冇錯。 15 孫靖乾資深大律師:同埋就算去到下面都會有啲(English Spoken)嘅情況,就係即係 16 其他嘅情況。同埋我哋見到就應該譬如舉例就係有一個就係嗰個叫做(English 17 Spoken),即係其實如果係有一啲咁嘅情況係,有一啲開咗一啲嘅(English 18 Spoken),即係可能開咗一啲嘅窿,或者一啲--咁呢啲咁嘅情況其實似乎都應該 19 --如果係有呢個咁嘅情況,同事係收到投訴,發現嘅時候其實都可以轉介畀呢個屋 20 宇署,係咪? 21 翁錦雄先生:係,冇錯。 22 孫靖乾資深大律師:係。咁頭先杜大律師亦都有講過就話,佢話係有啲證據證--顯示係有投 23 訴--有啲投訴係直接係向消防處係投訴關於嗰個生口嘅情況。咁我哋暫時可能喺嗰 24 個文件度就唔係好睇得到,但係你印象中有冇--喺你處理呢個案件嘅時候,有冇係 25 留意到係有一啲嘅直接關於個生口方面嘅投訴係向呢個消防處作出? 26 翁錦雄先生:我冇留意到有。 27 孫靖乾資深大律師:好,唔該你。跟住最後仲有兩個地方,我純粹係想同你跟進下,即係為 28 咗嗰個完整性嘅啫。第一個就係,你記得頭先杜大律師就問過你關於一位蘇先生, 29 都係宏福苑嘅居民嘅一個查詢。咁首先就同你睇一睇就係,佢喺9 月13 號嘅時候 30 嗰個電話,就頭先都播過出嚟嘅,咁嗰個謄本就喺呢個B7 嘅4539 頁。 31 如果我哋B7/4539 頁,我哋再一路可能落少少,我哋去到呢個02:08 , 32 02:08 嗰度,你就見到嗰個消防處嗰個投訴及查詢熱線嘅同事,咁佢係有同蘇先生 33 即係了解咗個情況之後,有講過就話佢可以作出一個投訴,如果佢係作出個投訴嘅 34 時候,咁可以安排番一啲嘅同事去睇一睇嗰個譬如物料係咪合規格之類咁嘅情況。 35 咁頭先你都講過,即係喺當時嚟講,個流程如果係查詢或者係投訴,就有一啲 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十七天

30 本謄本由Epiq 編製 唔同嘅處理方法,係咪? 1 翁錦雄先生:係。 2 孫靖乾資深大律師:係。咁我哋都睇到呢度就係蘇先生喺9 月13 號嗰個電話查詢裏面,佢 3 就當時就話咁佢會搵法團去處理。但係其實就仲有係過多大概係兩三個星期之後, 4 有另一個嘅查詢都係蘇先生去作出,咁頭先就可能杜資深大律師就未有機會同你睇 5 嘅,咁我哋去睇埋嗰個謄本,喺4541 頁嘅。 6 4541 頁,我哋見到就喺9 月30 號,蘇曉峯先生亦都有係向嗰個消防處嘅投 7 訴同查詢熱線就係去致電,咁當時嚟講,譬如我哋睇到06 秒嗰度就話,佢話我哋 8 嗰個屋苑就係做緊呢個大廈嘅外牆嘅大維修,當時佢冇提及到佢係邊一個屋苑,然 9 之後跟住就有講到話嗰個承建商就係唔知係咪發泡膠定係啲乜嘢,就係用嚟遮住個 10 窗,然後就27 秒嗰度佢就話「我哋就比較擔心嗰啲物料會唔會比較易燃,比較容 11 易著火嘅」。 12 然後我哋再去下面睇一睇,應該1 分15 秒嘅時候,嗰個消防處嘅同事就話 13 「因為我哋消防處就冇任何條例規定嗰隻窗可以點樣封住,或者你可以問一問呢個 14 屋宇署佢哋嗰邊有冇啲乜嘢可以幫到你」。咁01:49 就亦都有講話「其實因為佢 15 哋係做大廈維修,其實都係跟番屋宇署嗰啲規定去做」,咁同埋01:59,就話「咁 16 你可以問下屋宇署佢哋有冇相關嘅規定,或者佢哋可以點樣去幫到你檢查佢嗰啲物 17 料係咪合乎佢哋嘅規格」。 18 咁當然我知道呢個電話裏面,蘇先生就冇表明佢係住喺宏福苑,所以同事就咁 19 話佢可以去同屋宇署再去查詢。咁我諗兩個問題,第一就係,據你嘅理解,當時同 20 事--即係如果佢冇講清楚佢住喺邊度,如果佢話叫佢去聯絡屋宇署,呢個係咪都係 21 一個即係可能係當時係一個算係正常嘅一個做法? 22 翁錦雄先生:冇錯。 23 孫靖乾資深大律師:咁第二就係話,如果喺而家火災之後,其實個做法係咪就會可能有啲唔 24 同就會--即係係會點樣做?問多啲資料同埋去轉介? 25 翁錦雄先生:係,我哋會問清楚佢個資料,咁同埋會攞佢嘅同意之下,我哋就會幫佢做轉 26 介。 27 孫靖乾資深大律師:係,明白,好。咁跟住就我想再問多你一樣嘢,就係最後,就係頭先就 28 係問到你關於有一個--我哋如果可能睇番,就係應該係B--睇下先,你等等。 29 係,應該就係頭先應該係有個B6 嘅4495。頭先杜大律師都有問到就係關於嗰 30 個工地食煙嘅嗰個情況,就有--其中有一個電郵就係FSD 嗰度就係發出番畀呢個 31 勞工處,就話關於嗰個--嗰個投訴我哋睇番就係,如果你去番呢個第4498 頁, 32 係,咁你見到頭先杜大律師問過你,就話嗰個投訴內容係建築工人於工作期間吸 33 煙,罔顧《消防條例》,置大廈居民安全不理。 34 如果我哋睇番4495,咁你呢度就有講到話即係有關嘅事項,即係你同勞工處 35 講,就唔係屬於FSD 去睇嘅嗰個範圍。咁呢度我想你睇一睇,其實下面嗰個勞工處 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十七天

31 本謄本由Epiq 編製 嗰個電郵,7 月22 號,其實我哋見到喺嗰個電郵裏面係有一個嘅(English 1 Spoken ),即係話係有一個檔案嘅編號嘅,咁呢度其實係睇到呢個叫做 2 LD000102,跟住LEKUEGIV,即係呢個係一個勞工處佢哋嗰個檔案編號。 3 咁我純粹想同你睇番,就係其實勞工處都有一個相關嘅紀錄,就係喺D1,D1 4 嘅947 頁,喺D1。咁我哋其實就睇到,其實都係喺頭先我哋睇到嗰個消防處同勞 5 工處嗰個電郵,就喺7 月22 號嗰個期間,咁其實勞工處亦都係同時係有一個嘅巡 6 查,係喺同一日,7 月22 號就係進行咗個巡查,咁嗰個巡查就針對係幾個投訴 7 嘅。如果我哋就係去到第949 頁嘅最下面,咁我哋見到呢個係第五個投訴,咁我哋 8 都見到佢有一個檔案嘅編號,其實呢個都係LD000102L2KUEGIV,呢個就同頭先 9 我哋嗰個電郵睇到嗰個檔案編號係一樣嘅,係咪? 10 翁錦雄先生:係。 11 孫靖乾資深大律師:係。然後我哋就可以睇番950 頁,咁其實嗰個投訴嗰個內容就係同頭先 12 嗰個睇到嘅一樣,然之後亦都睇到勞工處係有寫咗佢哋嗰個對投訴點樣去處理等 13 等。所以其實如果睇番個文件,其實當時嚟講,實際上消防處話其實嗰樣嘢就唔喺 14 佢哋嗰個睇嘅範圍以內,咁你哋嘅理解係咪呢個問題最屘其實係勞工處佢哋本身其 15 實都係即係作出咗佢哋嘅跟進? 16 翁錦雄先生:係,冇錯。 17 孫靖乾資深大律師:係。好,咁就唔該晒,我就冇其他嘅問題。 18 陸啟康法官:有冇覆問? 19 杜淦堃資深大律師:有。麻煩你睇番頭先孫大律師畀你去睇嘅文件夾B6/4469 頁,我哋見 20 到呢個係部門與部門之間嘅格式。 21 翁錦雄先生:係,冇錯。 22 杜淦堃資深大律師:一啲備忘錄。咁呢一個備忘錄係我哋見到個題目係似乎係處理一啲我哋 23 叫做(English Spoken),一啲僭建物嘅備忘錄。可唔可以咁講?如果我嘅理 24 解冇錯,當你哋消防處發現一啲僭建物嘅時候,你哋要轉介畀(English 25 Spoken),咁就用呢個格式嘅表格去做,因為裏面包含咗一啲比較常見嘅情況, 26 所以唔使由頭寫一次,我剔番嗰個相關嘅格仔佢哋就知你哋講緊啲乜嘢,咁講啱唔 27 啱? 28 翁錦雄先生:係,冇錯。 29 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係我想同你探討嘅另外一樣嘢,因為裏面我哋亦都見到有啲簡寫嘅, 30 如果你見到第三個格仔,(English Spoken),你見到呢度。 31 翁錦雄先生:係。 32 杜淦堃資深大律師:後面有一個縮寫FHAN 嘅。FHAN 係(English Spoken),係咪? 33 翁錦雄先生:冇錯。 34 杜淦堃資深大律師:換句話講,我咁理解同唔同意?雖然有啲--有僭建物喺法例底下,可能 35 係需要係BD 根據佢哋所處理嘅條例(English Spoken)去執法,但係相關嘅 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十七天

32 本謄本由Epiq 編製 僭建物可能會造成一個消防風險,所以喺《消防條例》底下,你哋都會出一個 1 (English Spoken),啱唔啱? 2 翁錦雄先生:係嘅,不過我有少少補充係,呢個係其實兩個部門係有個好清晰嘅--之前有個 3 討論,咁係就住咩嘢情況,邊一樣嘢,究竟呢樣嘢係由消防處負責,呢樣嘢由屋宇 4 署負責,或者呢樣嘢係會兩邊都會做,咁係有一個咁嘅(English Spoken)喺 5 度嘅。 6 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係如果有個(English Spoken )-- 即係有個黑字白紙嘅 7 (English Spoken)? 8 翁錦雄先生:係,冇錯。 9 杜淦堃資深大律師:我明白呢個可能係個情況,但係其實我想帶出嘅係另外一點,一樣嘢可 10 能係僭建,可能係對於喺(English Spoken)裏面係應該由BD 去執法,呢個 11 我哋冇唔同意嘅地方。但係同一時間,如果嗰樣嘢係造成一個嚴重嘅火警風險,消 12 防處亦都有責任出(English Spoken),啱唔啱? 13 翁錦雄先生:可以咁講。 14 杜淦堃資深大律師:所以換句話講,我講番生口呢一個例子,執法嘅可能係屋宇署,佢哋亦 15 都可能會關注呢一個係咪違反咗(English Spoken)或者其他嘅法例,但係如 16 果有一個明顯嘅消防風險,你哋都有法定嘅責任出(English Spoken),啱唔 17 啱? 18 翁錦雄先生:呢個情況我覺得唔啱。 19 杜淦堃資深大律師:你覺得唔啱,點解? 20 翁錦雄先生:因為如果我哋覺得呢個係一個火警風險,咁的而且確,咁我哋可以做嘅就係我 21 哋要去(English Spoken)咗呢個(English Spoken )佢,咁即係話我哋 22 出嗰張(English Spoken),呢張(English Spoken )就可能要求佢要拆 23 咗呢一個--即係要(English Spoken)番呢一個--做番隻窗本身嗰個設計。 24 但係正如我所講,我哋冇一個專業去界定到,究竟做一個工程係咪需要有呢個 25 生口嘅存在,係咪需要有呢個改動。如果喺工程裏面真係有一個咁嘅需要嘅話,咁 26 變咗兩個部門嗰個處理咪會唔同,一個就要去--我哋要拆咗佢,一個就話原來唔 27 係,工程必須。所以喺啲咁嘅情況之下,我哋就覺得係由番個最專業嘅部門去做, 28 所以呢一個情況之下我哋就唔會出嗰個(English Spoken)嗰個動作。 29 杜淦堃資深大律師:所以換句話講,就算以今日嘅情況去睇,你嘅講法就係話,你見到呢個 30 情況,你哋都唔會用你哋《消防條例》相關嘅權力去處理? 31 翁錦雄先生:唔會。 32 杜淦堃資深大律師:因為呢個可能會造成一個唔同部門有互相抵觸嘅決定,或者唔同嘅決定 33 喺度? 34 翁錦雄先生:係,冇錯。 35 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係咁,我可唔可以咁講?如果我哋見到個--我哋今日知道個生口個問 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十七天

33 本謄本由Epiq 編製 題,明顯地會影響有關嘅居民,有關甚至乎喺呢件事件裏面,你前線嘅同事去救 1 火,如果知道嘅話,出唔出(English Spoken)係一件事,要立即採取行動去 2 解決嗰個問題,我相信你會同意? 3 翁錦雄先生:同意。 4 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係我諗宏福苑呢個例子就係冇人知道原來開咗呢啲生口? 5 翁錦雄先生:係,冇錯。 6 陸啟康法官:冇其他問題,係咪呀? 7 我諗翁Sir,我諗你都會同意,即係聽咗一朝嘅證供,我諗你都同意,其實今 8 次我哋都--宏福苑呢個火災都畀咗我哋好多好慘痛嘅教訓。咁我諗對於--我諗你都 9 會同意,即係好多痛點,即係消防都係好多痛點㓤到落去消防嗰度。 10 但係無論如何點都好,我諗今朝你咁--我亦都可以大膽咁講,即係你直接同埋 11 坦誠咁去回答呢啲問題,其實都令到我哋委員會真係好知道嗰個問題嘅所在,同埋 12 第時去檢討方向,亦都係真係幫助我哋。所以即係多謝你今日上嚟畀證供,咁你作 13 供完畢㗎嘞,多謝你。 14 翁錦雄先生:唔該。 15 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔該晒。 16

17 12 時11 分消防處助理處長(消防安全)證人翁錦雄先生作供完畢 18

19 12 時12 分消防處大埔消防局前局長(由 2024 年 2 月 23 日至 2024 年 12 月 30 20 日)證人賀俊維先生開始作供 21

22 杜淦堃資深大律師:主席、兩位委員,下一位證人係賀俊維先生。 23 何先生,你好,正如你頭先嘅同事一樣,麻煩你先讀出有關嘅聲明。 24 賀俊維先生:好。本人賀俊維聲明,本人所作的證供,盡本人所知、所悉及所信,均屬真 25 實。 26 杜淦堃資深大律師:多謝你,請坐。你而家嘅崗位喺消防處係分區嘅副指揮官,係港島東行 27 動組,係咪? 28 賀俊維先生:港島中區。 29 杜淦堃資深大律師:港島總區? 30 賀俊維先生:中區。 31 杜淦堃資深大律師:我見到你提交咗一份嘅證人供詞,係喺文件夾WS2/1049 頁嘅,我相信 32 你都可以確認裏面嘅內容係準確嘅? 33 賀俊維先生:係。 34 杜淦堃資深大律師:喺2024 年2 月到舊年嘅年底,即係大火之後,你都係大埔消防局嘅局 35 長,你叫(English Spoken),係咪? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十七天

34 本謄本由Epiq 編製 賀俊維先生:正確。 1 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋知道你喺呢段期間,就宏福苑嘅事情,你一共處理咗一宗嘅投訴, 2 兩宗嘅查詢,同埋你都有安排你嘅屬下去舉辦咗一場嘅消防講座? 3 賀俊維先生:正確。 4 杜淦堃資深大律師:我明白就投訴嘅事情或者一啲居民就火警事情嘅查詢,喺大火前同大火 5 後,我哋見到消防處有唔同嘅做法嘅,即係而家係考慮咗當時嘅問題去處理咗嘅。 6 我想問番你一啲當時嘅情況,其實都係想幫到我哋去向前看,去睇一睇以前嘅做 7 法、改善嘅地方,你亦都可以藉呢個機會,如果你可以講到嘅話,都話畀我哋知, 8 即係而家可能個處理手法會唔同嘅,我哋可以試下探討呢方面嘅問題,好唔好? 9 賀俊維先生:知道。 10 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋理解大火之前嗰個政策似乎係咁嘅,有市民打去消防處,你哋會有 11 個分流嘅,決定係有關嘅事情係一個投訴定係一個查詢嚟嘅,係咪?因為處理手法 12 係唔同嘅? 13 賀俊維先生:係。 14 杜淦堃資深大律師:至於決定過係投訴定係查詢,要靠前線聽電話嗰個同事去睇下佢哋點樣 15 去睇有關嘅事情,可唔可以咁講? 16 賀俊維先生:可以。 17 杜淦堃資深大律師:而嗰個分類裏面,消防處亦都按服務承諾,就係如果有迫切嘅危險,我 18 哋頭先都睇過,(English Spoken ),你哋係廿四小時之內會即刻落場去睇 19 嘅?我哋見到呢個(English Spoken)亦都有啲咁嘅情況,即刻落場去睇嘅, 20 可唔可以咁講? 21 賀俊維先生:可以。 22 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係如果係一個查詢,整體上高就唔會落場巡查嘅,平時,有好多時可 23 能都係會打番電話去跟進,睇下實際嘅情況會係點,咁樣講啱唔啱? 24 賀俊維先生:正確。 25 杜淦堃資深大律師:相關嘅你處理過嗰幾個投訴,我諗都可以講番你哋處理嗰個手法,你喺 26 你嘅證人供詞第6 段講到,其中你處理過一個投訴叫(English Spoken),嗰 27 個係關於你哋收到電郵,裏面就有一張相,我哋--嗰張相喺B6/4490 嗰度睇到, 28 4493 喺電郵裏面,呢個係宏業工程公司去提交畀你哋嘅,似乎就講咗一啲佢哋預 29 算打--擺放竹棚同埋有關物料嘅位置。我想你可以解一解畀大家知,其實你哋平時 30 嘅法例底下要求又好,你哋嘅慣例又好,其實承建商喺幾時會畀呢啲資料消防處? 31 賀俊維先生:好,首先佢畀呢個資料我嘅時候,佢就唔係作--即係唔係一個投訴嚟嘅。 32 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,明白。 33 賀俊維先生:咁佢係通知我將會有個咁嘅工程,有啲嘢擺放喺度。咁喺正常平時既定嘅程 34 序,或者我喺做局長嘅經驗裏面,我哋冇要--我哋--承辦商去做工程係冇既定或者 35 佢一定會通知我哋咁囉。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十七天

35 本謄本由Epiq 編製 杜淦堃資深大律師:所以其實呢個其實係佢主動畀你哋嘅? 1 賀俊維先生:係。 2 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔係因應有關嘅要求畀你哋? 3 賀俊維先生:唔係我哋要求佢,佢主動畀我哋。 4 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係你哋收到嘅電郵之後,你哋的的確確派咗有位消防隊長,去評估會 5 唔會阻塞相關嘅消防通道嘅? 6 賀俊維先生:係。 7 杜淦堃資深大律師:個原因係咪因為你哋睇完呢啲相之後,有呢個擔心,所以你哋去做? 8 賀俊維先生:因為佢有啲嘢會擺放咗喺屋苑裏面,所以我都會責成咗個分類主管睇睇,佢呢 9 啲物品擺嘅位置會唔會影響到我哋行動上,譬如一啲緊急車輛嘅通道,有冇啲逃生 10 途徑,會受到呢啲影響,咁我都會指示佢望一望,會唔會有啲咁嘅影響,報告番畀 11 我聽。 12 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白。我想同你睇第--呢個係第一個例子,你處理過有關嘅宏福苑大維 13 修嘅一啲-- 呢個可能係一個查詢,我哋叫佢做。另外一個查詢係你叫做 14 (English Spoken )嘅,你證人供詞第8 段裏面,嗰個查詢就係似乎係喺 15 2024 年9 月4 號,你哋就收到領展管理處嘅電郵,就話有一啲(English 16 Spoken),即係有啲阻礙咗有關通道嘅情況。咁我哋見到你第8 段呢度講咗嘅, 17 佢哋其實係想防止一啲鐵馬,阻止--同埋亦都阻止咗一啲居民去擺放一啲物品係可 18 能會阻礙到救火嘅工作,係咪咁? 19 賀俊維先生:首先呢個嘅來由係佢畀電話消防處先嘅,咁我有一個分隊嘅第二主管接收呢個 20 電話,其實之後先至有呢個電郵。咁喺成個過程裏面,其實個管理公司係想問佢可 21 唔可以擺一啲類似鐵馬或者一啲嘢,擺喺嗰個電郵裏面所指嘅地方,所以我就亦都 22 因為呢個(English Spoken),亦都係分派咗去分類主管睇一睇,會唔會影響 23 到--佢嘅擺放會唔會影響到一啲我哋去車嘅情況,同埋一啲緊急車輛通道嘅情況。 24 杜淦堃資深大律師:似乎咁講啱唔啱?我哋睇有關嘅資料,似乎消防處其中一個最緊張嘅情 25 況就係,如果見到有障礙物會影響逃生嘅路線,或者一個緊急嘅車輛出入通道, 26 EVA,呢個就你哋係--根據你哋嘅做法,你哋一定係會派人落去睇嘅? 27 賀俊維先生:如果係一個投訴,同埋畀我哋嘅手頭上嘅資料好明確,或者係有懷疑,我哋一 28 定會落去睇。如果係投訴,我哋一定會廿四小時落去睇。 29 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白。咁喺呢一個投訴裏面,你證供就提到,你指派咗鄭隊長同埋另外 30 一位姓麥嘅同事去跟進,佢之後就話番畀你知,佢就同管理處溝通咗,話唔可以再 31 用啲鐵馬阻住個EVA? 32 賀俊維先生:個情況就係佢問我哋可唔可以擺鐵馬喺度,咁整個回覆係我答佢就係「如果你 33 鐵馬擺咩嘢位置我哋唔理,就如果你個鐵馬擺放係阻咗個EVA,我哋唔畀」。 34 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白。而呢一啲情況,你就呢一個情況嚟講,就冇需要落去嘅? 35 賀俊維先生:冇。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十七天

36 本謄本由Epiq 編製 杜淦堃資深大律師:冇,明白。好,我想問下你另外一個,最後想同你處理一個個案就係, 1 真係一個我哋睇落去係一個投訴嚟嘅,係你喺第10 段指嗰一個,係有一對夫婦, 2 其實佢係發電郵嘅,如果睇B6/4509,我哋之前聽證會裏面都睇過嘅應該。 3 如果睇落啲。佢個標題如果你睇番就話 “(English Spoken)”,電郵裏 4 面就附帶咗一啲Facebook 嘅截圖,你睇下下低一路都有,就有啲唔同居民講嘅情 5 況。個投訴亦都包括咗一啲吸煙嘅問題,我哋--你喺證供第11 段就講到,你指派 6 咗許健安高級消防隊長去跟進嘅,係咪? 7 賀俊維先生:喺我個口供度都有講到,就係其實當時並不是我指派佢嘅,係另外一位同事去 8 指派佢,咁係我10 月14 號... 9 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係你嘅下屬指派佢嘅,其實係? 10 賀俊維先生:當時嘅情況係,之前我有一個年終大假嘅,10 月14 號係我第一日回任,咁係 11 之前佢兼任我嗰位大埔...(聽不清)長嘅同事去處理,咁我一返到,14 號嘅時 12 候,咁就高級消防隊長許健安就同我(English Spoken)呢件事。 13 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋見到你都有講過就係你哋部門嘅處理方法,你都有個電郵,如果睇 14 4508 頁,喺B6 嗰度。呢個係你親自回覆... 15 賀俊維先生:係。 16 杜淦堃資深大律師:...畀兩位投訴人。我想問下你嘅就係,呢啲投訴,我哋知道其實當時 17 你係個職位係大埔區嘅消防局局長。 18 賀俊維先生:係。 19 杜淦堃資深大律師:我都想問一問下,就係點樣去回--去(English Spoken),換句話 20 講,去提升到去邊個層次,邊個去處理呢啲投訴,你哋嘅機制又係點嘅?因為你似 21 乎係嗰個消防局嘅局長。 22 賀俊維先生:係。 23 杜淦堃資深大律師:由你去回覆一個投訴,呢個應該唔係每一次都會發生嘅事情,係咪? 24 賀俊維先生:如果... 25 杜淦堃資深大律師:定係其實慣例係咁? 26 賀俊維先生:如果我係回覆--投訴人如果--譬如就呢個case,佢其實係send 去畀局長 27 嘅,咁我會回覆佢。咁而亦都部門有話,如果我代表我間局去覆一個投訴人,有時 28 程序上,我都會以一個局長嘅身分去覆番嗰個查詢人或者嗰個投訴人。 29 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白。你呢度都講咗,有啲(English Spoken)啲意見就畀咗呢個 30 管理處-- 個(English Spoken ),同埋個管理處,同埋叫佢哋(English 31 Spoken),就之後關於一啲防火嘅事情佢哋都要關注。 32 當然,我知道呢個就唔係你,即係你嘅下屬去做,有關嘅。我哋見到佢呢啲嘅 33 投訴,我哋明白有唔同嘅火警嘅投訴係唔同嘅部門去處理,但係就呢啲譬如吸煙嘅 34 投訴,好多時你哋都會去同--我哋見到都會同有關嘅個體去溝通,亦都會畀番啲意 35 見佢哋。但係至於幾時畀或者點樣樣,就靠番你哋前線同事嘅經驗,可唔可以咁 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十七天

37 本謄本由Epiq 編製 講? 1 賀俊維先生:可以。 2 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係唔係話吸煙,你哋就一定唔會去畀意見,但係就似乎你哋就個--頭 3 先我哋聽到,你哋嘅認知就係嗰個主要嘅責任就唔喺消防處嗰度,可唔可以咁講? 4 賀俊維先生:我呢度想補充一啲嘅,就係經過呢一次事件之後,嗰個去轉介個機制,同事去 5 點樣處理,已經係喺呢個新嘅機制裏面係加強咗嘅。例如頭先都係翁Sir 所講,我 6 唔再喺度重複,點樣去由我哋攞(English Spoken),點樣去確保對方部門去 7 收到呢個轉介,但係當時係靠我哋覺得判決我哋去轉介畀邊一個嘅部門。 8 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白。換句話講,其實我都係想問一問,因為我諗我哋大家都係從市民 9 個角度,因為我哋都見到有時向消防處投訴一啲地盤吸煙嘅問題,你哋的的確確係 10 有同事去處理嘅,即係亦都會畀一啲意見相關嘅人士嘅? 11 賀俊維先生:就呢個個案,咁我嘅下屬同我匯報嘅時候,我哋都探討過呢個唔係我哋能夠喺 12 賦予我哋法例上係做到嘅,但係我哋覺得都睇下有啲乜嘢可以幫到佢,當時真係真 13 心諗點樣可以幫到佢,所以就揀選咗不如我哋試下,我哋當時決定就係我哋向管理 14 公司埋手,幫手可唔可以做到啲嘢。 15 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白。但係喺個案裏面,我想問下有冇轉介畀勞工處咁樣? 16 賀俊維先生:呢個個案我冇。 17 杜淦堃資深大律師:我亦都明係白前線嘅同事可能亦都係未必咁清楚或者每一個個案應該邊 18 個部門去處理嗰個咁嘅情況,大火之後,我哋亦都聽到你嘅同事講其實係有個機制 19 去處理。但係換句話講喺大火之前,就吸煙問題其實視乎情況,有時你哋嘅前線同 20 事就係會自己處理咗? 21 賀俊維先生:喺呢個case 裏面我當時選擇係唔轉介去勞工處,我亦都知道工地裏面嘅安 22 全,工地裏面係勞工處裏面會有人監管,咁喺呢個case 裏面我係冇做到。 23 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋唔係--我諗我要澄清,你唔係批評你嘅同事做多咗,而佢哋去聯絡 24 番有關嘅管理處或者承建商,即係當然呢一個對於居民嚟講可能亦都係好事。但係 25 我諗亦都係反映咗嗰個就前線同事嚟講邊個部門去處理每一個投訴,呢個似乎係喺 26 大火之前,就唔係太清楚嘅有時? 27 賀俊維先生:有時都會基於佢哋嘅經驗。 28 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,明白。有一樣嘢你哋係的的確確做咗嘅,我知道你哋係喺宏福苑舉 29 辦咗一場消防講座,你講咗有大概八十人參加,嗰次係唔係你自己去處理定係你同 30 事去處理? 31 賀俊維先生:嗰次係我同事去處理。 32 杜淦堃資深大律師:我都想等你講番畀大眾聽,其實呢啲消防講座你哋係幾時會舉辦,或者 33 喺咩嘢情況之下決定去做? 34 賀俊維先生:通常就係我哋消防處有啲既定嘅途徑,公眾就可以去申請,交一啲嘅申請表去 35 唔同地方消防局去申請一啲或者一啲防火演習、講座。當前線嘅消防局收到呢啲咁 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十七天

38 本謄本由Epiq 編製 嘅申請嘅時候,我哋當值嘅隊長就會同嗰個申請人去溝通,溝通包括時間上,溝通 1 包括佢有咩嘢特別嘅要求,我哋會儘量滿足市民去同佢哋做一個講座嘅。而呢一個 2 講座嘅工作喺我哋前線局裏面係一個好常見、常做,亦都係頻密嘅工作嚟嘅咁樣。 3 杜淦堃資深大律師:換句話講,就唔係因為有一個大型樓宇維修就會自自然然或者會係你哋 4 有任何嘅規例,就係話喺呢個情況下就要做一啲防火講座,呢個其實似乎個機制要 5 有人申請,你哋至會去舉辦,可唔可以咁講? 6 賀俊維先生:喺大型屋苑維修嗰個情況下,係。 7 杜淦堃資深大律師:你「係」嘅意思,即係都係要申請如果? 8 賀俊維先生:係,都要申請,係。 9 杜淦堃資深大律師:我相信呢個可能係一個你哋要考慮同檢討嘅地方,因為如果係火警風險 10 最高地方嘅情況下,都唔去主動做呢啲嘅演習或者講座嘅話,似乎冇更加大需要嘅 11 情況要做呢啲嘢,係咪? 12 賀俊維先生:我哋其實都有一啲地方我哋(English Spoken )出嚟,譬如一啲醫院嗰 13 啲,我哋都要定期會主動同佢哋去做。 14 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白。即係可能另外有一啲比較獨特嘅設施或者有需要嘅群組,你哋都 15 會去做? 16 賀俊維先生:係。 17 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係大型樓宇維修而家我哋去睇,似乎係一個即係相當需要去做呢啲演 18 習或者講座嘅地方? 19 賀俊維先生:咁我相信呢個都係我哋去優化其中一個嘅方向。 20 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白。 21 賀俊維先生:唔好意思,主席,我可唔可以?想飲一杯水。 22 陸啟康法官:可以,可以,請便。 23 杜淦堃資深大律師:可以,可以。我最後都想問你一點嘅,就係因為你係大埔區消防局局長 24 當時,宏福苑喺大埔區其實係一個幾大型嘅居屋屋苑嚟嘅,即係大家住大埔嘅人都 25 知道喺邊,而佢咁多棟一齊維修,其實住大埔嘅人好多人都見到,因為佢喺火車站 26 望過去都望到。 27 賀俊維先生:係。 28 杜淦堃資深大律師:所以其實當時亦都嗰個維修時間亦都好長,見到七棟,我哋而家睇到咁 29 多棟都搭晒棚--八棟,我想話就大埔區消防局而言,我明白你哋要有你哋嘅程序去 30 做,亦都有當時嘅考慮。就係因為做緊大型樓宇維修,而當時係有冇任何嘅指示或 31 者有冇任何嘅措施係要加強對宏福苑嘅巡查呢? 32 賀俊維先生:巡查上係就加強係冇嘅。 33 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係我諗亦都--我明白大家要跟程序咁做,但係我諗大埔區嘅居民每日 34 都見到,如果我哋冇估錯,可能係最大型嘅樓宇維修項目嚟嘅喺當時,可唔可以咁 35 講? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十七天

39 本謄本由Epiq 編製 賀俊維先生:可以。 1 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係當大家都望到而冇人去主動加強個巡查,呢個似乎都唔係理想嘅, 2 同唔同意? 3 賀俊維先生:同意,我有少少補充嘅。 4 杜淦堃資深大律師:當然。 5 賀俊維先生:就住呢個大維修,當時亦都係做咗個火警預案。 6 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白。但係我哋正如你之之前同事都解釋咗,嗰個預案主要牽涉救火, 7 係有火警之後點樣去撲滅。 8 賀俊維先生:係。 9 杜淦堃資深大律師:就但係防火嗰方面就冇? 10 賀俊維先生:加強,冇。 11 杜淦堃資深大律師:主席,我冇其他問題。 12 陸啟康法官:各涉事方有冇其他問題?如果冇。政府孫大律師亦都冇? 13 孫靖乾資深大律師:都冇。 14 陸啟康法官:Okay。唔該晒賀生,唔該晒。 15 賀俊維先生:唔該晒。 16

17 12 時32 分消防處大埔消防局前局長(由2024 年2 月23 日至2024 年12 月30 日)證人賀 18 俊雄先生作供完畢 19

20 12 時33 分消防處大埔消防局高級消防隊長證人伍永光先生開始作供 21

22 杜淦堃資深大律師:下一位證人係吳永光先生。唔好意思,你應該係伍先生定吳先生? 23 伍永光先生:伍先生。 24 杜淦堃資深大律師:伍先生,係。伍先生,你好,正如其他嚟協助我哋嘅證人一樣,想麻煩 25 你讀一讀面前嘅聲明。 26 伍永光先生:明白。本人伍永光聲明本人所作的證供盡本人所知、所悉及所信,均屬真實。 27 杜淦堃資深大律師:我要麻煩你嘅事情其實係比較簡單嘅,因為我知道係喺去年你曾經處理 28 過一啲就宏福苑嘅投訴,咁當時你係喺消防處係高級消防隊長。 29 伍永光先生:係。 30 杜淦堃資深大律師:而你喺2020 年就晉升到而家嘅職級,當時你係唔係都係大埔消防局嘅 31 叫做值班指揮官? 32 伍永光先生:當日我處理呢個查詢嘅時候,係。 33 杜淦堃資深大律師:你做咗一份證人供詞喺WS2/1055 頁,個供詞唔係好長,我相信個內容 34 你都會可以確認係屬實,係咪? 35 伍永光先生:係。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十七天

40 本謄本由Epiq 編製 杜淦堃資深大律師:其實主要相關係你處理咗一宗我哋睇過嘅投訴,其實你個名喺電郵度我 1 哋都見到,去文件夾B6/4506 頁,呢個係你嘅電郵,係咪? 2 伍永光先生:係。 3 杜淦堃資深大律師:如果我哋落啲,再落,我哋見到相關有位麥先生嘅投訴? 4 伍永光先生:係。 5 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋見到呢一個電郵係由呢個叫做Benny Mak(譯音),麥先生就寫 6 咗一個你哋消防處嘅電郵,嗰個係唔係你哋大埔消防局嘅電郵地址嚟,定係... 7 伍永光先生:嗰個係另外一間分局,大埔東消防局嘅地址嚟嘅。 8 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白。但係呢個就係你當時去處理,即係轉介咗畀你去處理,係咪? 9 伍永光先生:由上司交畀我處理。 10 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋知道佢呢度就係講緊嗰個發泡膠嘅問題,我哋頭先都探討過政策, 11 決定呢一個係一個投訴定一個查詢,係唔係就係你去決定?你去處理呢一個個案。 12 伍永光先生:當其時我係聽番對方麥生,想搵番麥生去傾番件事先,了解清楚佢究竟想反映 13 嘅事情係咩嘢事情,如果係一個可以我哋直接啟動機制去處理一個投訴嘅話,我會 14 幫佢轉做投訴嘅模式去處理。 15 杜淦堃資深大律師:換句話講,即係係你去處理嘅,即係去決定呢個係一個投訴定一個查 16 詢,因為我知道你哋嘅機制底下有唔同處理辦法,係咪? 17 伍永光先生:係。 18 杜淦堃資深大律師:而你亦都可以同大家講番就呢一個電郵,你哋係將--你聽完佢解釋之 19 後,你將佢列為咗一個查詢,係咪? 20 伍永光先生:係,因為佢提及到嘅事項係講緊一個工程嘅監督或者係工地管理嘅問題,所以 21 我當其時係咁樣去理解。 22 杜淦堃資深大律師:而就如果講緊工程嘅範圍或者工地嘅監督,所以就變成一個查詢呢個做 23 法係一個你哋平時既定嘅做法,定係一個你決定嘅做法呢? 24 伍永光先生:呢個係我跟部門指引嘅做法,同埋裏面補充一點,就係佢如果提及一啲我哋可 25 以提供到嘅服務嘅話,我哋都會提供番畀佢。 26 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白。我淨係想問一問你嘅,就係因為嗰個處理方法唔同,而你頭先都 27 好清晰咁講出咗,因為係處理緊一個工程嘅監督或者工地嘅問題,所以呢個就會係 28 被既定為係一個查詢,呢一樣嘢係--你話呢個做法係跟部門畀你嘅指引嘅,係咪? 29 伍永光先生:係。 30 杜淦堃資深大律師:換句話講,如果我哋講緊緊嘅一啲工程嘅問題,部門指引就會將佢列為 31 查詢,咁嘅理解啱唔啱? 32 伍永光先生:我認為係正確。 33 杜淦堃資深大律師:個指引係點樣講㗎?即係點樣去分查詢同埋投訴,即係係唔係有一個幾 34 清晰嘅指引講咗呢啲嘢出嚟,定係你哋部門畀你哋呢個信息都係一啲傳落嚟嘅經 35 驗? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十七天

41 本謄本由Epiq 編製 伍永光先生:我一直理解係有一啲投訴,如果我哋處理到或者憑經驗,或者我自己親自處 1 理,或者係喺呢一個(English Spoken)裏面講到,我哋就會直接去處理,但 2 係處理唔到嘅部分,我哋通常都係會做轉介。 3 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔係,我想你睇下協唔協助到,或者我問得唔清楚嘅就係。你嘅意思係 4 唔係有一個白紙黑字嘅指引,就係話如果投訴嘅事情有關一啲工程嘅項目或者工地 5 監督,呢個就會被既定為一個查詢,唔係一個投訴,我想睇下個情況係唔係咁,係 6 唔係有一份指引咁講? 7 伍永光先生:指引裏面會講明係我哋可以做到嘅嗰部分,咁所以正如做唔到嘅,我哋都會嘗 8 試去幫對方處理,搵番相關部門處理嘅,我嘅理解就係咁。 9 杜淦堃資深大律師:你嘅證人供詞第6 段講到,你其實同麥先生都有通過電話,佢就同你講 10 過到話有個佢擔心嘅事情相關嘅風險,工人喺地盤吸煙,就你同佢講嘅呢個電話, 11 你仲有冇嘢可以補充? 12 伍永光先生:冇特別要補充。 13 杜淦堃資深大律師:你口供亦都提到,如果你再落少少,你建議咗佢去搵屋宇署或者勞工處 14 嘅,係咪? 15 伍永光先生:係。 16 杜淦堃資深大律師:而你叫佢搵屋宇署同勞工處嘅原因,就係因為正如頭先可能你嘅同事都 17 講咗,你覺得吸煙同發泡膠唔係消防處要管轄嘅事情,所以你建議佢去第二啲部門 18 度投訴,係唔係咁? 19 伍永光先生:係。 20 杜淦堃資深大律師:我都想問番消防處畀你哋嘅指引,就呢啲事情應該向屋宇署或者勞工處 21 投訴,你哋收到嘅指引係點樣畀你哋?即係譬如你哋唔係有一個規章,或者你哋係 22 上司同你哋講,呢啲係一個習慣定係點㗎? 23 伍永光先生:我哋從累積經驗,亦都係有指引裏面講過,我哋部門同某一啲部門之間嘅分 24 工。咁喺一個--其中一啲嘅指引裏面都亦都講到,喺大廈嘅外牆上面如果發生例如 25 可能係一啲廣告牌嘅話,將整個大廈嘅外圍覆蓋嘅話,其實都係由番屋宇署去跟 26 進,所以喺呢個咁嘅情況之下,我覺得兩者之間有相似嘅地方,我認為投訴人都應 27 該係要搵番屋宇署去跟進,會比較準確一啲。 28 杜淦堃資深大律師:廣告板如果有相關嘅指引,就似乎係另外一啲嘅問題,就唔係講緊大型 29 樓宇維修嘅問題,係咪? 30 伍永光先生:係。 31 杜淦堃資深大律師:我就係想問下你嘅,就係我哋頭先喺聽證會度,你都坐咗喺後面。 32 伍永光先生:係。 33 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋睇過一啲文件,你講相關嘅指引,係唔係頭先睇到嘅文件定係其實 34 有第二啲文件? 35 伍永光先生:都係呢啲文件。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十七天

42 本謄本由Epiq 編製 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係所以你話有指引嘅,你係講緊嘅只不過係我哋睇過嘅嘢,就唔係一 1 啲另外可能未--你睇咗或者你指緊嘅另外一啲嘅文件,係咪?即係你肯定係頭先喺 2 螢幕上高打出嚟嗰啲?換句話講。 3 伍永光先生:呢個我唔太肯定,不過我有聽過相關嘅指引同埋跟住部門嘅指引去處理呢件 4 事。 5 杜淦堃資深大律師:另外,你證供第8 段亦都講到一啲吸煙嘅處理嘅問題,你就叫麥先生通 6 知管理處,由管理處敦促禁止吸煙同埋一啲防止抌煙頭嘅問題。就呢一啲問題,你 7 嘅認知就係其實你係聽到呢啲投訴,其實你係冇必要直接轉介畀勞工處,係咪?你 8 只係叫投訴人自己去投訴,可唔可以咁講?當時你嘅理解。 9 伍永光先生:我建議投訴人直接去搵番勞工處,或者用1823 搵晒所有部門,所以我覺得呢 10 個方法係直接。 11 杜淦堃資深大律師:因為喺1823 投訴,就個個部門都會知? 12 伍永光先生:我嘅理解係。 13 杜淦堃資深大律師:所以你就建議佢咁做? 14 伍永光先生:我嘅理解係,係。 15 杜淦堃資深大律師:最後,我想麻煩你嘅,就係如果你睇B2/1397,我哋見到有一份備忘 16 錄、,如果我哋睇下文件夾嘅最底右下角,我見到應該係你去撰寫嘅,係咪? 17 伍永光先生:係。 18 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋喺消防處嘅文件裏面睇到呢份,應該係關於宏福苑喺4 月5 號 19 2025 年就發出一份嘅我哋知道消防裝置停止通知書,兩份SDN,而你喺呢份備忘 20 錄裏面講到你喺4 月同埋5 月都收到SDN 之後,你就跟進咗事情,出咗一啲消防 21 安全建議信嘅,一啲(English Spoken)嘅。 22 伍永光先生:係。 23 杜淦堃資深大律師:我畀你睇番嗰兩份SDN ,等你知道我哋講緊嘅乜嘢。如果都係喺 24 B2/1405 頁,如果縮細少少,你睇下右下角。上啲,係。你就會睇到中間你哋手 25 抌印嘅日期,你會睇到佢開始同埋預計完成嘅日期,呢個係一間叫做Victory 26 Fire 公司去遞交嘅。 27 伍永光先生:係。 28 杜淦堃資深大律師:相關嘅文件如果你去1407 頁,我哋都會見到一啲我哋叫做FS251 嘅 29 文件,係咪? 30 伍永光先生:係。 31 杜淦堃資深大律師:另外嗰個SDN 你睇番1559 頁,呢個就係有關日期係5 月16 號開始到 32 5 月29 號嘅。 33 伍永光先生:係。 34 杜淦堃資深大律師:如果我哋睇番1570 ,你見到個內容就係下低第二部分嗰度,講 35 (English Spoken),跟住右邊就係(English Spoken),C part 3, 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十七天

43 本謄本由Epiq 編製 再落。咁就話一個(English Spoken)、(English Spoken),跟住就話 1 (English Spoken)。 2 伍永光先生:係。 3 杜淦堃資深大律師:另外,我想你睇番個備忘錄,我想你幫一幫我哋,去番1397,如果我 4 哋睇呢個備忘錄嘅日子係2025 年12 月29 日寫嘅,即係其實佢呢個係火警發生 5 之後,我哋知道。 6 伍永光先生:係。 7 杜淦堃資深大律師:而亦都係記錄嘅事情其實係半年前發生嘅事,4 月至5 月,點解你年尾 8 先無端端寫番一份咁嘅備忘錄出嚟? 9 伍永光先生:我收到上司嘅要求要我寫。 10 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係換句話講,呢一份備忘錄唔係一份平時你哋要準備嘅文件,呢份係 11 大火之後? 12 伍永光先生:係額外嘅。 13 杜淦堃資深大律師:額外做番,即係寫番出嚟記錄番之前嘅情況嘅文件,可唔可以咁講? 14 伍永光先生:係。 15 杜淦堃資深大律師:睇咗呢個備忘錄之後,我哋可以睇到就係備忘錄裏面講嘅第一份SDN, 16 我哋頭先睇到4 月4 嗰一份,我哋會見到備忘錄咁講嘅,第三段「(English 17 Spoken)系統」,如果我睇番相關系統紀錄,係唔係1390 頁嗰個紀錄?1390, 18 縮細少少,係。你講緊係呢個紀錄,係咪? 19 伍永光先生:係,如果4 月4 號嘅話就應該係。 20 杜淦堃資深大律師:你嘅備忘錄裏面講到有第二份嘅,去番1397,有第二份嘅SDN,跟住 21 你見到“ (English Spoken )",而家講緊 5 月 16 號嗰份,你就話 22 “(English Spoken)",即係有第二次去做個檢測,而嗰個有關嘅紀錄係唔 23 係1547 頁嗰份呢?你睇一睇。呢個係系統裏面嘅紀錄似乎。 24 伍永光先生:日子上面係。 25 杜淦堃資深大律師:我都想問一問你嘅,就係有關嗰兩次嘅(English Spoken )你叫 26 做,嗰個(English Spoken)係唔係你親自去做? 27 伍永光先生:唔係。 28 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想問下你嗰個(English Spoken)所牽涉嘅要停嗰啲系統就去睇 29 下,係咪? 30 伍永光先生:係承辦商通知我哋停系統,跟住我哋前線局就會到場確定個情況,跟住再根據 31 個情況,喺我哋既定指引裏面畀一啲補救措施畀對方去做。 32 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想問一問你嘅,就係如果去B2/547 頁睇番,我哋見到喺有關紀錄裏 33 面,睇到喺DPI/4.2.16。 34 伍永光先生:係。 35 杜淦堃資深大律師:你見到嗰度寫住係“(English Spoken)",你見到咁寫,係咪? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十七天

44 本謄本由Epiq 編製 伍永光先生:係。 1 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想問一問你嘅,就係點解呢度記錄咗呢一個係一個(English 2 Spoken)? 3 伍永光先生:喺文件4.2.16 裏面有提及到有一啲嘅損壞,我哋會當係嚴重損壞嘅,咁就會 4 希望對方去做一啲即時嘅補救措施,就係好似喺文件裏面見到咁樣擺放滅火筒。 5 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係你哋可唔可以咁講,你哋睇文件會覺得係一個嚴重嘅損壞,其實個 6 (English Spoken)去到其實冇真係睇過有關嘅措施係唔係嚴重損壞嘅,係全 7 靠承建商報上嚟嘅,咁講公唔公道? 8 伍永光先生:其實我哋都係好依賴承建商或者係個contractor 講出嚟嘅資料。 9 杜淦堃資深大律師:因為譬如我哋知道呢度個承建商話漏水,所以你哋見到漏水就係漏水就 10 決定咗呢個係一個嚴重嘅損壞,可唔可以咁講? 11 伍永光先生:係,有個(English Spoken)會講咩嘢叫嚴重損壞。 12 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係喺火災之前,你哋嘅做法就係會倚賴承建商畀嘅資料,雖然你哋有 13 去過現場,但係你哋去現場係唔會核實佢哋講嗰個情況係唔係準確嘅,可唔可以咁 14 講? 15 伍永光先生:我哋都會同管理公司溝通,確認情況係唔係好似佢講咁樣。 16 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想問清楚,因為似乎呢度就係唔同嘅證人可能講嘅嘢有少少出入,但 17 係因為你直接參與,其實佢話嚴重損壞係睇下個消防缸有冇漏水嘅情況,其實似乎 18 我哋見到嘅證供係冇人去check 過個消防缸係唔係真係漏水嘅,咁呢個你會唔會 19 同意?喺你嘅認知入面。 20 伍永光先生:我哋唔會直接去檢查個缸。 21 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係你亦都冇,其實基本上就係? 22 伍永光先生:係。 23 杜淦堃資深大律師:正如你講,其實係你哋會倚賴承建商話畀你知嘅嘢,但係你哋當日去檢 24 測,就其實係冇一個要求係你哋去核實承建商講嘅嘢係唔係準確,可唔可以咁講? 25 伍永光先生:係。 26 杜淦堃資深大律師:喺初步調查之後,我哋知道你哋出咗一啲(English Spoken),有 27 關嘅信件喺B2/1550 頁。我哋知道亦都冇爭議嘅就係喺備忘錄之後你都有紀錄, 28 就係你哋叫佢做番一啲其他嘅措施,你就寫法係“(English Spoken)",即 29 係大家都知道今日就係加番啲滅火筒,係咪? 30 伍永光先生:係。 31 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想都都問你可唔可以講到嘅嘢,就係我明白你係前線嘅同事,所以你 32 嘅認知,就係其實係冇要求過你哋去--即係既然都去到宏福苑,去做一個你哋叫做 33 (English Spoken),但係就冇要求過你哋去睇下承建商報上嚟嘅嘢同當時嘅 34 實際情況有冇分別嘅,呢個講法啱唔啱? 35 伍永光先生:因為我哋係前線消防局,係收到呢啲咁樣嘅shutdown notice 之後,我哋 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十七天

45 本謄本由Epiq 編製 直接去睇,係照顧嗰個位置頭嗰六十日,咁當確認咗佢嗰個損壞情況之後,我哋就 1 做番補救措施,六十日之後就會由另外一組人,總部佢哋會再去跟進。 2 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想問你嘅就係,你都話確實咗個損壞個情況,但係似乎畀你哋嘅指引 3 係冇要求你哋去確核嗰個損壞個情況嘅,係咪?因為你哋係倚賴有關嘅承辦商,可 4 唔可以咁講? 5 伍永光先生:係,我哋唔會喺而特別情況測試佢。 6 杜淦堃資深大律師:而可能你亦都答唔到我哋,即係譬如呢個情況咁,個缸有冇漏水,既然 7 落得去,點解唔去核實下呢樣嘢我相信你未必答到我哋,係咪? 8 伍永光先生:係。 9 杜淦堃資深大律師:主席,我冇其他問題。 10 陸啟康法官:各個涉事方有冇問題?如果冇問題,伍生,多謝你今日嚟畀證供,多謝你。 11 伍永光先生:多謝。 12

13 12 時55 分消防處大埔消防局高級消防隊長證人伍永光先生作供完畢 14

15 陸啟康法官:我哋會到下晝,係咪? 16 杜淦堃資深大律師:下晝。 17 陸啟康法官:我見其實消防嘅證人係比較多嘅,我留意到就佢哋好似--我哋提出嘅問題,即 18 係佢哋就比較搵多啲唔同嘅人去回答我哋委員會提出嘅問題,所以其實呢個係佢哋 19 比較多證人嘅一個原因,係唔係咁? 20 杜淦堃資深大律師:主席,我諗我可以咁講,亦都公道啲。第一,就係因為當然好明顯地我 21 哋講緊一場火災嘅調查,所以好自然畀消防處嘅問題可能係比其他政府部門或者其 22 他嘅群體係多嘅,我而家答唔到主席我哋出咗幾多封信畀消防,因為其實可能係多 23 到我都數唔到嘅。 24 第二樣嘢,第二個題目就係亦都有關處理我哋查詢嘅同事,我諗佢哋都遵守咗 25 一個原則嘅,佢哋真係每一個自己有資料嘅同事就去做一份證人供詞,佢哋唔係靠 26 其他同事畀嘅消息去做,所以喺消防處方面,佢哋係提供咗多份嘅證人供詞,我都 27 可以同主席講,其實好多位消防處提供供詞個供詞嘅消防處人員,我哋係冇要求或 28 者冇邀請佢哋嚟解釋嘅,因為其實我哋睇咗之後我哋見唔到嗰個需要。 29 陸啟康法官:唔該晒,我哋押後到下晝。即係我諗公眾都可以大家有個了解。跟住我哋押後 30 到下晝2 點15 分。 31

32 12 時56 分聆訊押後 33 14 時15 分聆訊恢復 34

35 14 時15 消防處副消防總長(機構策略)證人霍振明先生開始作供 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十七天

46 本謄本由Epiq 編製

1 陸啟康法官:今日最後一位證人。 2 杜淦堃資深大律師:最後--主席,最後一位證人係霍振明先生。霍生,你好。 3 霍振明先生:你好。 4 杜淦堃資深大律師:同其他人一樣,麻煩你將你面前嘅聲明讀出嚟。 5 霍振明先生:好。本人霍振明聲明,本人所作嘅證供,盡本人所知、所悉及所信,均屬真 6 實。 7 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,多謝你,麻煩你,請坐。霍先生我哋知道你98 年加入消防處喇, 8 2024 年就晉升到你現時嘅職級,你係副消防總長。 9 霍振明先生:正確。 10 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,你做咗兩份供詞嘅,相信你都有再重溫一次喇。 11 霍振明先生:有。 12 杜淦堃資深大律師:你亦都可以確認裏面嘅內容係準確嘅? 13 霍振明先生:我確認準確。 14 杜淦堃資深大律師:有兩方面,主要有兩方面我想係同你去探討嘅。第一,就係喺大火當 15 日,按處長嘅指示喺15:20 就成立咗處長指揮室嘅,(English Spoken),當 16 時係由你去負責指揮嘅? 17 霍振明先生:正確。 18 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,我主要-- 因為唔係大家都睇過你嘅證人供詞,而我哋知道呢個 19 (English Spoken)亦都唔係每一次大型火警都會出現,所以就呢一方面,我 20 哋都想借呢次機會等你可以解釋下畀大家聽當日嘅情況、你哋個職責,因為你個證 21 人供詞裏面略略都提過。或者我都可以引導你去解一解釋,你第一份證人供詞喺第 22 4 段就提到喇,其實呢個(English Spoken),即係DCP 我哋叫做。應該係當 23 日嘅最高指揮中心嚟嘅? 24 霍振明先生:冇錯。 25 杜淦堃資深大律師:佢唔喺宏福苑嘅現場嘅,係咪呀? 26 霍振明先生:不是。 27 杜淦堃資深大律師:喺邊度㗎佢? 28 霍振明先生:喺我哋消防總部2 樓。 29 杜淦堃資深大律師:你嘅證人供詞第14 至15 段咁講,當日(English Spoken)有佢重 30 要嘅責任嘅,或者麻煩你都講解畀大家聽你哋主要嘅職責係點樣樣? 31 霍振明先生:好,我哋個處長指揮室主要負責協助處長去監察現場嘅情況同埋調配資源,咁 32 同時我哋會收集現場嘅資料發放番去我哋嘅消防處高層同埋政府各部門入面,跟住 33 如果有需要嘅時候就會向前線增加啲額外嘅資源,協助佢哋嘅滅火救援工作。 34 杜淦堃資深大律師:所以喺當時成立咗DCP 之後,資源嘅調配就由你哋去做最終嘅決定嘞? 35 霍振明先生:會有兩個情況,我哋部門本身有一個恆常嘅機制,喺唔同級別嘅火警入面,我 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十七天

47 本謄本由Epiq 編製 哋有啲叫做PDA ,一定已經係既定按機制去調派嘅車輛嘅,我哋要(English 1 Spoken)。另一樣呢,如果我哋喺現場,我哋喺我哋監察途中,我哋發現現場係 2 需要一啲特別嘅工具、車輛、人力去支援嘅呢,咁我哋處長指揮室都會調配嘅。第 3 三個情況就係現場指揮官發現現場如果佢係唔夠足夠嘅資源去進行一個滅火救援或 4 者需要增援,都會要求我哋嘅消防通訊中心去派一啲額外資源去協助佢工作。 5 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋喺你嘅證人供詞亦都睇到喇,你第5 段提到,當時就係嗰個級別嘅 6 問題,你提到有個(English Spoken),呢個係初期啟動嘅情況喇,包括三級 7 以上嘅火警喇,好多時都喺初期就係會有一個(English Spoken),係咪? 8 霍振明先生:三級火警發生嘅情況未必一定會啟動處長指揮室。 9 杜淦堃資深大律師:冇錯。 10 霍振明先生:如果一啲特別嘅三級火警就會。 11 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢次嘅火警我諗做一個例子,我哋知道15:02 就三級,而個DCP 就係 12 喺十零分鐘之後,就係... 13 霍振明先生:15:20 成立。 14 杜淦堃資深大律師:15:20 嘅時候就成立㗎嘞,所以就好似你咁講,就唔係一個自動會成立 15 DCP 嘅? 16 霍振明先生:唔係,我哋係按處長指示去成立嘅。 17 杜淦堃資深大律師:你第6 段提到,喺當日15:20 指示嘅時候,一開始其實已經係一個 18 (English Spoken)嚟。 19 霍振明先生:冇錯。 20 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,可唔可以同大家解一解釋點解會有個咁嘅情況呢,個考慮係點? 21 霍振明先生:好,喺我哋消防處處理呢個火警嘅時候呢,如果遇到一啲大型嘅火警,或者一 22 啲會引起公眾關注嘅火警呢,通常我哋消防通訊中心都會透過我哋內部有一個叫做 23 訊息傳送系統,即是坊間嘅WhatsApp,不過我哋嗰個係專屬我哋消防處嘅訊息傳 24 送系統,叫“FSD Messenger”,其實我哋就會透過喺入面發放嘅資訊去評估番 25 究竟現場嘅環境或者係現場嘅火勢係咪猛烈。 26 其實我哋喺接收到呢一個事件之後,我哋睇到我呢個訊息入面個情況比較嚴 27 重,所以我哋喺總部大樓工作嘅同事,包括埋處長喺升三級火嘅時候已經第一時間 28 去到消防通訊中心去評估個情況嘞。當處長落到去消防通訊中心,我哋全部同事都 29 留意到一個好特別嘅情況,就係我哋收到大量嘅求助個案,要求我哋消防處要派出 30 搜救隊去做一啲拯救嘅工作,我哋平時一般三級火警我哋唔會接收咁大量,所以我 31 哋就住呢個情況呢,同埋過去我哋處理火警嘅經驗呢,覺得呢個係一個唔尋常嘅火 32 警,所以處長即時就啟動咗處長指揮室。 33 杜淦堃資深大律師:而你亦都講到喇,喺你證人供詞第17 段,同埋之後嘅地方,DCP 通常 34 一開始未必會係你呢個級別去做嘅? 35 霍振明先生:係。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十七天

48 本謄本由Epiq 編製 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,通常係比你低兩級嘅同事去做,係咪? 1 霍振明先生:正確,由一個高級消防區長去處理。 2 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係今次我相信可唔可以咁講,因為開始大家都知道個情況特別,所以 3 處長已經係委派你去處理? 4 霍振明先生:冇錯。 5 杜淦堃資深大律師:喺15:20 啟動咗DCP 之後,我都想問下你,你喺接手嗰陣個情況,係 6 咪一開始你哋已經知道,喺15:20 嘅時候已經知道宏福苑當時有啲消防裝置係失 7 效? 8 霍振明先生:當時唔知道。 9 杜淦堃資深大律師:係幾時先知嘅呢? 10 霍振明先生:我哋當時一開始我哋係收到大量嘅求助個案,咁我哋一開始去評估就係一啲資 11 源上面嘅調配,到火警發生嘅期間,其實我哋就不斷咁去同前線去溝通,當前線進 12 行滅火救援嘅時候,佢哋有一啲信息就返番我哋呢個通訊中心,就話喺個救火個情 13 況之下有困難。因為我哋本身處長指揮室就會有一個既定機制,我哋就會去檢視番 14 我哋消防處入面嘅電腦系統,睇下究竟嗰個樓宇上面嘅消防裝置有冇一個失效嘅情 15 況,我哋就透過檢視個系統呢,咁我哋就發現原來嗰個消防系統係失效嘅。 16 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想問一問你哋同前線嗰個溝通係點做嘅?因為我哋已經知道,你亦都 17 頭先提過,你哋有你哋自己嘅FSD Messenger 喇。 18 霍振明先生:正確。 19 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢個好似我哋大家都有用嘅WhatsApp 咁,不過係一個封閉嘅系統。 20 霍振明先生:冇錯,係,正確。 21 杜淦堃資深大律師:保安嘅理由。功能上同似乎同WhatsApp 都有好多相似嘅地方,係咪 22 呀? 23 霍振明先生:係。 24 杜淦堃資深大律師:前線如果有信息要返嚟你哋DCP,係咪用(English Spoken)主 25 要? 26 霍振明先生:睇下佢要傳一啲咩信息喇?如果一啲係我哋嘅行動信息,咁一定會用無線電去 27 傳送嘅。 28 杜淦堃資深大律師:因為快啲比較,因為講。 29 霍振明先生:直接,係。 30 杜淦堃資深大律師:直接。其他呢? 31 霍振明先生:有情況嘅如果佢覺得有一啲需要,可能係一啲補充消息嘅,咁佢會靠電話同我 32 哋通訊中心聯絡或者同我哋其他長官聯絡喇。如果真係需要傳一啲現場圖片、相片 33 或者影片呢,都會透過(English Spoken)去傳送。 34 杜淦堃資深大律師:大家會有個疑問,你哋喺DCP 度,你哋唔喺火場喇,你哋要留意到火場 35 嘅情況,你哋會唔會有任何即時嘅影像傳到畀你哋呢? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十七天

49 本謄本由Epiq 編製 霍振明先生:有呀,我哋個無人機系統係可以即時將現場嘅情況傳送返去哋DCP。 1 杜淦堃資深大律師:當日幾多點開始你地即時直播咁睇到現場嘅情況㗎?講唔講到畀我哋聽 2 呀? 3 霍振明先生:我印象應該大概係可能係晚上時間,但係正確時間,我唔記得。 4 杜淦堃資深大律師:係嘞,似乎喺晏晝啟動咗DCP 之後,及後去到之後嘅兩三小時,其實當 5 時應該係未睇到現場個火場嘅,冇一個live 或者冇一個影像係傳送到畀你哋,主 6 要係靠相同埋或者拍咗啲video sent 畀你哋,可唔可以咁講? 7 霍振明先生:可以,不過我想補充一點,就係其實我哋會監察住各大傳媒嗰個影像嘅。 8 杜淦堃資深大律師:係。 9 霍振明先生:我哋喺當日都有開晒所有嘅傳媒嘅電視台咁去睇番個現場嘅影像。 10 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係當日傳媒朋友大家都知道有直播喇,所以你哋其實都係喺某個程度 11 上都係靠媒體嘅直播去了解現場嘅情況? 12 霍振明先生:同埋同事畀我哋嘅信息。 13 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白。可唔可以咁講?即係換句話講,喺15:20 嘅時候其實你哋已經 14 知道呢場火其實係相當嚴重,同埋亦都係好似你頭先咁講,有別於好多你哋過往處 15 理過嘅火警? 16 霍振明先生:正確。 17 杜淦堃資深大律師:喺你嘅經驗裏面,你服務咗消防處--由98 年服務到而家,DCP 呢個制 18 度,據你記憶大概幾時開始? 19 霍振明先生:一路都有㗎。 20 杜淦堃資深大律師:一路都有。 21 霍振明先生:不過DCP 呢個制度喺2017 年最後一次個檢討,咁就住DCP 入面唔同工作崗 22 位嘅角色同埋功能我哋都檢討過一次。不過就... 23 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁以你... 24 霍振明先生:唔好意思,我... 25 杜淦堃資深大律師:你講埋先,唔好意思。 26 霍振明先生:好,咁其實由17 年直至到宏福苑大火呢,其實直接啟動呢個Tier 2 嘅機制 27 係第一次。 28 杜淦堃資深大律師:我就係想問下你係試過幾多次? 29 霍振明先生:第一次。 30 杜淦堃資深大律師:所以今次應該係17 年之後就史無前例第一次用呢個機制? 31 霍振明先生:正確。 32 杜淦堃資深大律師:好嘞,你頭先都提到其中一個DCP 你哋當日嘅責任或者你哋有權力去做 33 嘅就係去派遣嗰啲搜救隊SAR 你哋叫做,係咪呀? 34 霍振明先生:正確。 35 杜淦堃資深大律師:Search And Rescue。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十七天

50 本謄本由Epiq 編製 霍振明先生:正確。 1 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係搵幾多同事去做搜救呢,當日嗰個決定權就似乎喺setup 咗DCP 2 之後去咗你哋嗰度? 3 霍振明先生:呢十隊係一隊額外嘅搜救隊。其實我哋本身有機制係調派搜救隊,當我哋收過 4 多過一個求助個案情況時候呢,其實我哋消防通訊中心就會直接派出第一隊搜救隊 5 㗎嘞,如果陸續我哋再收多過第四個求助個案呢,我哋會派多第二隊搜救隊落去 6 嘅。咁當日派完兩隊搜救隊之後呢,其實陸陸續續都有一啲救助個案咁蜂擁而至個 7 消防通訊中心喇,咁其實通訊中心亦都派多咗兩隊,咁現場before 喺十隊嘅額外 8 搜救隊之前,已經有四隊喺度。經處長指示之後,再派多十隊,所以初期係有十四 9 隊搜救隊。即是話無論按機制或者額外調配,我哋都會派搜救隊。 10 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想問一隊搜救隊嗰個包括咗幾多位同事?你可唔可以解一解釋畀大聽 11 牽涉啲乜嘢?人力方面。 12 霍振明先生:好,如果係一個搜救隊嘅組成呢,一般係一架細嘅--小型嘅消防車、一架搶救 13 車、一架大型嘅消防車,可能係泵車、可能或者我哋油壓升降台。咁如果一個叫做- 14 -咁樣為之--咁呢度大約會有--每架車大約有六個人喇,咁大約有十二個人,扣除 15 兩名司機,咁可以做搜救隊嘅工作就大約係十名,咁而家我哋一般嘅叫做呼吸器 16 隊,即係我哋嘅(English Spoken ),咁我哋就兩個人為之組成一隊 17 (English Spoken),咁一隊搜救--如果一個搜救隊最多可以做到五隊。 18 杜淦堃資深大律師:亦都呢個唔係--希望你理解,唔係一個批評,但係市民有好多疑問,關 19 於當日嗰個資源,同埋嗰個調配,所以都係一個好好嘅機會,等你去解釋下畀佢哋 20 聽。消防處出動咗嘅車輛同人手,當日會--後期我哋知道係有當然大量嘅消防員, 21 同埋你哋調配咗比平時多嘅資源去處理。我諗個關注係喺火警嘅初期,成立咗DCP 22 嘅時候,因為喺--其實喺--我哋睇番紀錄,喺15:17 嘅時候,其實你哋都收到現 23 場嘅情況,而當時就係話,有關嘅火警喺大廈嘅外牆嗰度用嗰個術語係 24 “(English Spoken)”,即係其實係--如果用廣東話講可唔可以話其實都係 25 燒得幾犀利? 26 霍振明先生:係。 27 杜淦堃資深大律師:所以有個質疑就係喺火警嘅初期,係咪應該調派更加多嘅人手,調派更 28 加多嘅搜救隊去? 29 霍振明先生:係。 30 杜淦堃資深大律師:都想你解釋一下畀大家知道,喺你接手咗之後,及後大概六十分鐘嗰個 31 情況,而你哋決定,由嗰陣去到決定派十隊搜救隊去嗰個情況。 32 霍振明先生:咁喺當日接收完--消防通訊中心接收完呢個火警報告嘅時候,咁其實處長指揮 33 室係未啟動嘅,因為喺15:20 先會啟動處長指揮室,咁我哋收(English 34 Spoken)嘅時候係14:51。 35 咁其實如果我哋平時,按一般我哋嘅頭先講嘅PDA,一般嘅一級火警,我哋就 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十七天

51 本謄本由Epiq 編製 會派四架消防車去嘅。咁就住宏福苑個情況,因為宏福苑情況入面,有幾個--首先 1 我哋知道佢本身消防系統有一個(English Spoken)嘅情況,維修嘅情況,咁 2 我哋派咗額外嘅消防車去做呢個救援,去增援。 3 咁另外就住一個--預到一個--收到一個叫做搜救嘅報告,咁我哋派咗額外嘅兩 4 架消防車出去做搜救。咁另外就係就住宏福苑呢個情況,因為本身行動總區已經制 5 訂咗一個叫做預案,咁呢個預案入面亦都加多咗兩架消防車,所以當日嘅--我哋叫 6 做(English Spoken),咁係比正常多咗好多。 7 咁就住一路我哋監察落去,因為其實我哋話去到火警,DCP 啟動嘅時候,其實 8 火警已經升咗級。佢喺15:02 度已經升咗級,咁三級火嘅動員加埋頭先額外嘅資 9 源,已經比正常嘅三級火警係多咗。 10 杜淦堃資深大律師:有一個講法就係,喺火警嘅早期,有好多居民會覺得係咪應該派多啲嘅 11 鋼梯,可以去到更高嘅樓層嗰度做搶救,呢一個或者直接向高啲嘅單位或者火場射 12 水,呢一個你都可唔可以補充一下你哋嘅立場? 13 霍振明先生:好,就住鋼梯嘅調配,除咗我頭先講嘅(English Spoken),咁一般一級 14 火警同三級火警都會有鋼梯嘅調配。因為鋼梯係一個特別車輛嚟,咁鋼梯嘅擺位同 15 埋佢可以做到--喺現場嗰個通行,好靠呢個現場指揮就住現場嘅情況去需要做一個 16 評估。 17 咁其實現場指揮,據我理解,現場指揮睇完個現場情況之後,咁佢需要有額外 18 鋼梯,咁佢就會要求番我哋通訊中心去派一啲額外鋼梯。咁喺宏福苑個整個搜救同 19 滅火過程入面,消防處係動用咗八把鋼梯。 20 杜淦堃資深大律師:而喺你嘅記憶裏面,用八把鋼梯呢個情況,你有冇見過?之前,或者有 21 冇--係咪一個好額外、好特別嘅情況? 22 霍振明先生:好特別,喺我印象入面應該冇。 23 杜淦堃資深大律師:冇試過嘅? 24 霍振明先生:冇試過。 25 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋睇番你證供,關於嗰十隊嘅搜救隊,我哋喺第9 段睇到你係15:20 26 嘅時候,當時就有兩隊搜救隊。 27 霍振明先生:係。 28 杜淦堃資深大律師:15:33 就指派咗額外四隊到場? 29 霍振明先生:係。 30 杜淦堃資深大律師:15:48 就再指派多四隊到場嘅? 31 霍振明先生:正確。 32 杜淦堃資深大律師:我都想問下你,喺你嘅記憶裏面,有冇試過喺火警嘅早期派咁多搜救隊 33 去一個火場? 34 霍振明先生:冇,冇試過。 35 杜淦堃資深大律師:我諗我哋可以跳到後期啲嘅情況,你可唔可以話畀大家知,當日總共消 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十七天

52 本謄本由Epiq 編製 防派咗幾多隊搜救隊去現場? 1 霍振明先生:我印象除咗初頭嗰十四隊之外,應該由現場主管利用,因為現場已經有好多嘅 2 消防車喺現場,咁其實我哋搜救隊嘅組成就係靠我哋嘅隊員同埋消防車嘅啫,咁應 3 該因為佢哋已經現場嗰個調配,將七棟大廈分為七個指揮,咁每一個大廈嘅指揮都 4 有佢自己嘅搜救隊喺轄下嘅,但係調派,我印象應該就係頭嗰十四架我哋叫做調派 5 搜救隊,咁另外嗰啲就係現場去運用現場嘅資源去進行搜救。 6 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係其實個搜救隊嗰個工作同現場嗰七個指揮,牽涉嗰七棟大廈,其實 7 係有重疊嘅?即係換句話講,搜救隊就額外派多十四隊? 8 霍振明先生:係。 9 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係現場亦都有同事做緊同樣嘅工作? 10 霍振明先生:按現場嘅分座指揮嘅需要,佢係可以利用現場嘅資源去組成一個搜救隊去做一 11 個搜救。 12 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白。另外有一方面想你都幫助我哋嘅,就係了解下當日你哋DCP 收集 13 啲求助個案嘅工作,喺紀錄裏面我哋見到,如果我哋睇一睇B10/5541。呢度係相 14 關我哋見到當日有三百七十三宗求助紀錄,我哋見到裏面有三十四宗係DCP 收集 15 嘅,例如我哋睇番541,第175 項為一個例,宏泰呢度我哋見到“(English 16 Spoken)”嘅,177,或者我哋睇下,你會見到下低有幾項寫住“DCP”。我都想 17 你講一講呢一個表,如果你話“ (English Spoken )” ,呢個係代表咗啲乜 18 嘢? 19 霍振明先生:代表我哋DCP 收到任何一個單位,可能係前線嘅同事,可能佢收到一啲 20 (English Spoken),咁佢當日可能佢係現場比較繁忙,佢係冇辦法聯絡到現 21 場嘅主管,或者現場嘅前線指揮車,咁佢會經電話或者無線電同我哋DCB 通訊,就 22 話畀我聽可能嗰度有個call,咁反而叫番我哋喺IDCP 度指派番呢啲call 落番 23 現場,因為我哋同現場有個溝通機制。 24 咁另外,因為其實我哋會有同保安局嘅緊急事故監察及支援中心咁都有聯繫 25 嘅,咁我印象當中,當日都經由呢個(English Spoken )收過一啲協助個案 26 嘅。 27 杜淦堃資深大律師:另外我哋見到-- 我哋睇緊呢個表,我哋都想解釋一下,有啲寫住 28 “(English Spoken)”嘅就係相信係求助嘅人士打電話? 29 霍振明先生:係。 30 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢個就係打999 轉過嚟嘅,係咪,應該?係另外一條線? 31 霍振明先生:我冇辦法可以確定,我哋收嘅有兩個,因為我哋本身消防有一個消防熱線。 32 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白。 33 霍振明先生:但係大部分都係999。 34 杜淦堃資深大律師:所以係是但一個電話? 35 霍振明先生:係。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十七天

53 本謄本由Epiq 編製 杜淦堃資深大律師:因為佢係打消防。另外我哋見到“ (English Spoken )” , 1 “(English Spoken)”可能會唔會係我哋喺聽證會度都聽到,有啲人士就主 2 動搵當時在場嘅消防人員去求救? 3 霍振明先生:因為我哋現場有個流動指揮車,咁我哋如果啲線好急嘅情況之下,佢真係會用 4 一個(English Spoken)嘅形式去搵我哋流動指揮車報告番個緊急情況。 5 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋如果再睇落啲,或者。係,我哋見到都有--呢個可能之前都探討 6 過,fax,嗰個係邊個fax 畀邊個,你知唔知?就咁睇。 7 霍振明先生:我... 8 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔知。 9 霍振明先生:...冇資料可以提供到。 10 杜淦堃資深大律師:總之係呢個係一個求助個案,係用fax 嚟收到嘅? 11 霍振明先生:如果按呢個表嘅顯示,係。 12 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白。我哋之前聽過一個解釋,即係我明白個機制係進步緊,亦都改善 13 咗,其實已經,就係警方嗰面會send fax 過嚟嘅,呢個係其--可能呢一個情 14 況,係咪? 15 霍振明先生:呢個係其中一個方法,其實如果由警方--我相信都明白到,我哋因為消防得三 16 十條線。 17 杜淦堃資深大律師:係。 18 霍振明先生:咁如果喺個大量求助個案湧入嘅時間,消防嘅同事有機會收唔到呢個求助個案 19 電話,咁fax 係其中一個方法。不過其實我哋同警務處嘅通訊中心都有一啲直線電 20 話聯繫嘅,即係每兩--兩邊嘅主管可以靠一個直線電話,咁通知講番個個案畀我哋 21 聽,或者佢講完之後,用一個電郵嘅形式send 過嚟,都可以接收得到。 22 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白。之前嘅同事都有解釋過係有呢個方法,我哋亦都睇到你第13 段 23 證人供詞話,喺個救援過程中,每小時都收集咗相關嘅資料發畀處長級嘅同事,同 24 埋呢個(English Spoken)嘅。上星期我哋都聽過黃思律總長作供嘅時候,佢 25 話番現場求助嘅資料係會用一個Excel 嘅方法去填寫番,再發番畀FSCC,係入番 26 落去個CMS 個系統裏面嘅。我想問下你哋DCP 方面,現場嘅情況嗰個收集,你頭 27 先講到有無線電,有個(English Spoken)。 28 霍振明先生:係。 29 杜淦堃資深大律師:亦都可能有啲電話? 30 霍振明先生:係。 31 杜淦堃資深大律師:前線嘅同事或者指揮官想報上嚟個情況同你哋溝通,仲會唔會有其他嘅 32 方法?例如你哋有冇其他系統性嘅做法去做嘅? 33 霍振明先生:係咪指電腦系統? 34 杜淦堃資深大律師:電腦系統也好,其他都可以都講嘅。 35 霍振明先生:其實如果喺消防通訊中心入面收到嘅求助個案,咁其實我哋一般可以喺我哋消 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十七天

54 本謄本由Epiq 編製 防通訊中心用一個電腦系統,就將一啲求助個案嘅資料用Excel 形式(English 1 Spoken)出嚟嘅,咁(English Spoken)咗呢一個資料出嚟之後,咁我哋就 2 會經政府網絡,咁就會將呢個資料send 番落去我哋現場嘅流動指揮車嗰度。咁副 3 消防總長黃思律就會(English Spoken )呢一個Excel 表,同埋佢亦都 4 (English Spoken )過,佢會用一啲(English Spoken ),一啲相嘅形 5 式,去(English Spoken)咁去(English Spoken )番嗰個可信性。跟住 6 如果佢哋喺現場完成咗一啲工序嘅話,咁佢會(English Spoken )番個 7 Excel。咁當日我喺處長指揮室,我如果就住呢個求助個案嘅資料,我係直接打電 8 話畀副消防總長黃思律去溝通。 9 杜淦堃資深大律師:就當日你去--喺呢個DCP 裏面履行你嘅職務,相--我哋明白嗰個火勢 10 同埋當日嗰個困難係史無前例嘅。喺前線同埋你哋溝通嗰個過程,而家過咗今次嘅 11 火災,你覺得有冇啲地方你哋係之後可以去做一啲嘅優化或者改良?你都可以講一 12 講畀委員會聽,用呢個機會。 13 霍振明先生:如果就住同前線喺無線電上面嘅溝通,因為當日喺現場嘅無線電嗰個溝通好頻 14 密,如果我哋經由處長指揮室,經由FSCC,再經由我哋嘅前線指揮車去聯絡番嗰 15 個總指揮或者現場一啲叫做(English Spoken)嘅同事,因為佢哋現場嗰個無 16 線電溝通太頻密,咁佢未必有個空間去畀我哋(English Spoken)到條線入去 17 同佢嚟叫,我哋如果喺呢個情況之下,我哋要靠電話,甚至乎我哋靠電話唔得,我 18 哋真係要去見到個人先可以搵到嗰啲資料。 19 杜淦堃資深大律師:可唔可以咁講?當然唔喺咁大型嘅火災底下,嗰個無線電系統你頭先講 20 到話要(English Spoken)到條線嗰個問題唔會出現,但係喺今次真係咁多人 21 同一時間溝通嘅情況底下,如果聽你咁講,唔只嗰啲電話線負荷其實係已經到咗佢 22 極限,個無線電系統都係嘅,咁講啱唔啱? 23 霍振明先生:無線電系統係講緊個使用率,不過係睇緊嗰個--睇下邊個救火嘅時期,咁喺火 24 警初期嘅時候,因為現場嘅溝通比較繁忙,咁係有機會有(English Spoken) 25 線嘅情況嘅。 26 杜淦堃資深大律師:後期就改善咗? 27 霍振明先生:後期就冇,係。 28 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想你幫一幫我哋去處理另一個題目,係接獲投訴嘅問題,因為你都畀 29 咗負責嘅機構策略總區裏面亦都有外判服務及投訴組嘅。 30 霍振明先生:係。 31 杜淦堃資深大律師:外判服務及投訴組亦都有一個角色,你喺你第二份證人供詞裏面第7 段 32 開始,你亦都提供咗一啲嘅資料,我哋其實今朝都同其他同事探討過,電話打嚟嘅 33 時候,其實前線嘅同事係要去睇下呢個係一個投訴定一個查詢嘅。 34 霍振明先生:係。 35 杜淦堃資深大律師:我都想問一問你,因為頭先可能同事同你個職級唔同,所以去睇呢件事 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十七天

55 本謄本由Epiq 編製 畀到我哋嘅資料都唔同。我想問下點樣去分係投訴定係查詢呢?因為呢一個你都明 1 白其實會影響日後點樣去跟進事情個事情。 2 霍振明先生:明白,我首先解釋番,其實喺消防處每一個工作單位都會有機收到投訴或者查 3 詢,只要個電話係公開咗,只係要個電郵係公開咗,佢都會收到嘅。稍後落嚟我就 4 會用譬如係一個接收人員嘅角色去解釋呢件事。如果接收人員接收到一個投訴嘅查 5 詢,首先會界定係唔係屬於我哋消防處嘅職權範圍,如果佢係不屬於我哋嘅消防處 6 職權範圍,或者嗰一件事情本身有其他部門喺個分工機制上面應該負責任嘅時候, 7 咁呢啲嘅情況我哋會將佢轉介,剩番落嚟就係屬於我哋消防處職員範圍入面嘅投訴 8 或者查詢。 9 投訴同查詢嘅話,咁要分別嘅呢,就係其實如果當嗰件事情係涉及一個懷疑違 10 反《消防條例》情況之下,咁嗰個就會用一個投訴嘅形式處理;如果唔係屬於呢個 11 懷疑違反消防條例情況下,我哋會轉到查詢,就交番喺相關嘅單位去回答。 12 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係換句話講,如果個投訴係同《消防條例》有關嘅,呢一個--或者個 13 電話係同違反《消防條例》有關嘅,如果我冇理解錯嘅,你哋會視嗰個為一個投 14 訴,係唔係咁理解? 15 霍振明先生:冇錯,因為如果佢違反《消防條例》,我哋係要做一個巡查、搜證同埋一個跟 16 進嘅工作。 17 杜淦堃資深大律師:而我哋頭先都睇過相關嘅文件,如果係一個查詣嘅話,第一,呢個似乎 18 就冇同《消防條例》有關。 19 霍振明先生:係。 20 杜淦堃資深大律師:第二,就係你哋未必一定會係落場去跟進嘅,可能只係用一啲其他嘅方 21 法去處理,係咪? 22 霍振明先生:正確。 23 杜淦堃資深大律師:所以落唔落場去睇,其實主要嗰個決定因素你哋會去睇下,就係投訴嗰 24 件事或者佢哋打嚟去同你哋想闡述嗰件事同違反條例有冇關係,咁講啱唔啱? 25 霍振明先生:冇錯。不過頭先我大前提一開始講咗就係首先佢係要唔屬於消防處嘅職權範圍 26 之內,或者係已經按分工機制有一個部門係負責呢項事項嘅時候,我哋消防處就會 27 將佢轉介咗,咁剩番落嚟應該就係屬於我哋消防處職權範圍入面嘅工作。 28 杜淦堃資深大律師:用番一個簡單嘅例子,亦都唔想花太多時間,因為今朝我相信你都喺度 29 聽咗證供。 30 霍振明先生:係。 31 杜淦堃資深大律師:工地吸煙嗰個問題,如果我聽你咁講,呢一個你哋嘅同事其實係唔需要 32 處理,應該第一時間轉介去畀勞工處,係唔係咁? 33 霍振明先生:正確,呢個係最基本嘅做法。不過就住一啲唔同嘅單位,我可以解釋多少少。 34 因為其實我哋收投訴同查詢有個別,頭先講過有啲唔同單位,咁有一啲單位根本佢 35 係冇呢個資源可以去做一個巡查嘅,例如我轄下嘅外判工作及投訴組,入面有一名 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十七天

56 本謄本由Epiq 編製 軍裝人員,不過係控制組嘅人員;同埋喺我哋消防通訊中心入面有一條熱線,就係 1 負責投訴同查詢嘅,嗰啲都係我哋控制組人員嚟嘅。收到呢一類型嘅查詢嘅時候, 2 咁佢唔會額外有資源去做一個巡視,去落場睇完之後先答嗰個投訴人。不過,所以 3 我哋嗰個機制就係就住呢一啲情況應該即時轉介,但係我哋亦都冇禁止到或者冇反 4 對叫同事,如果譬如佢資源許可,喺消防局嗰度嘅,咁佢對嗰件事有(English 5 Spoken),咁佢去睇,我哋都冇反對。 6 杜淦堃資深大律師:換句話講,其實如果就算嗰件事同違反《消防條例》冇關係,但係譬如 7 同火警可能係有關嘅,即係譬如有人喺工地吸煙,你哋個做法就會係如果跟番現行 8 嘅機制,佢應該係轉介。 9 霍振明先生:正確。 10 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係有同事如果走去畀一啲意見或者走去做一啲跟進嘅行為,你哋係覺 11 得冇問題? 12 霍振明先生:我哋同意嘅。 13 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想問下,你頭先亦提到另外一點嘅,因為你消防裏面唔同嘅部門,或 14 者學你即係頭先咁講,其實今時今日好多人投訴各種各樣嘅嘢,你有個電話,有個 15 電郵,就可能有人寫嚟,咁你哋內部其實係唔係都係會轉介番有關嘅投訴係畀處理 16 投訴嘅同事跟進呢? 17 霍振明先生:冇錯,係。不過,如果喺頭先我講嘅外判工作及投訴組,或者我哋消防通訊中 18 心,咁佢好明確界定咗嗰個唔係我哋消防處職權範圍嘅時候,佢直接就會將佢轉介 19 去相關部門,咁唔會再去我哋嘅消防處單位度跟進。 20 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係譬如如果唔係你頭先講嘅通訊中心,譬如可能係當區消防局收到一 21 個咁嘅投訴,你講嗰啲處理嘅情況就會出現,係咪? 22 霍振明先生:係,收到咁嘅查詢,因為投訴佢就一定會落場。 23 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白。都想問一問你,如果係1823,我哋都睇過有啲投訴去到嗰度。 24 霍振明先生:係。 25 杜淦堃資深大律師:去到嗰度其實係似乎資料顯示就會係唔同嘅部門都會見到嘅。 26 霍振明先生:係。 27 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁都要有人決定邊個去接波,如果可以講得俚俗少少,咁點決定嘅呢? 28 霍振明先生:據我個理解,其實1823 喺24 年底出咗一個新嘅機制,當一啲係權責上面唔 29 係咁清晰嘅,係冇部門可以即時主導去處理呢件事,就會由當區民政專員去處理, 30 民政專員發現如果都處理唔到,就由副政務司長去處理,去做一個最終嘅決策。 31 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想問就係譬如1823 咁,我哋見到有啲投訴係可能同火警有關嘅,或 32 者同呢個火警風險有關嘅事情,我哋都見到就有唔同嘅部門可會去睇呢件事,我今 33 朝都探討過,可能呢啲(English Spoken)、ICU,大家都知道有個角色。 34 霍振明先生:係。 35 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁嗰個機制係點呢?其實係幾個部門都有人去睇每一個投訴,跟住自己 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十七天

57 本謄本由Epiq 編製 去決定邊個去接波,定係有人去派嘅呢?我想問下係點嗰個機制,你講唔講到? 1 霍振明先生:我就唔係喺嗰個位置可以講清楚1823 嘅分派呢個投訴嘅機制。 2 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白。 3 霍振明先生:不過就住我哋日常工作,如果我哋收到1823 轉介過嚟,而又跨幾個部門,我 4 哋就會就住我哋嘅範疇去進行一個檢視,咁有需要嘅就去巡查,我哋就會將呢個我 5 哋嘅建議同巡查結果覆番畀1823,1823 就會(English Spoken)晒各個部門 6 嘅(English Spoken),睇下有冇一個主要部門去(English Spoken)咗 7 呢件事,如果冇嘅話,咁就行番頭先話去搵當區嘅DO 去處理。 8 霍振明先生:明白。多謝晒你先,我冇其他問題問你。 9 霍振明先生:多謝晒你。 10 陸啟康法官:請問其他涉事方有冇任何問題?孫大律師。 11 孫靖乾資深大律師:係,多謝主席,我都冇其他嘅問題。 12 陸啟康法官:Okay。唔該晒你霍先生,今日上嚟畀證供。 13 霍振明先生:唔該晒主席,唔該晒委員。 14

15 14 時51 分消防處副消防總長(機構策略)證人霍振明先生作供完畢 16

17 陸啟康法官:唔該晒。 18 杜淦堃資深大律師:主席,聽日都係會有兩位消防處嘅證人嚟作供。 19 陸啟康法官:Okay。咁我哋今日就會早啲完,明天10 點鐘繼續。 20 杜淦堃資深大律師:主席,啱啱有人提醒我,聽日應該係三位至啱。 21 陸啟康法官:三個證人,Okay。咁聽日10 點鐘,唔該。 22

23 14 時52 分聆訊押後 24 (聆訊將於2026 年4 月23 日10 時00 分繼續) 25

FD06257 | 2025_港澳台_香港宏福苑大火_Transcript-(Chinese)_20260423.pdf

分类:06_境外及港澳台调查报告 | 年份:2025 | 地域:香港 | 严重程度: | 场所: | 起火原因: | 来源格式:pdf

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十八天

本謄本由Epiq 編製

就大埔宏福苑火災成立的獨立委員會

聽證會

高等法院原訟法庭陸啟康法官 陳健波議員 歐陽伯權博士

日期:

第十八天 2026 年4 月23 日

杜淦堃資深大律師、俞匡庭大律師、李澍桓大律師及馮天榮大律師代表獨 立委員會

孫靖乾資深大律師、陸栩然大律師、卓元暢大律師及劉逸冲大律師代表政 府

律政司代表

競爭事務委員會代表

呂世杰資深大律師及阮文躍大律師代表市區重建局

合安管理有限公司代表

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十八天

1 本謄本由Epiq 編製

以下內容乃聆訊數碼錄音謄本 1

2 10 時00 分聆訊恢復 3

4 10 時00 分消防處消防區長(呼吸器)證人董永基先生開始作供 5

6 陸啟康法官:係,杜大律師。 7 杜淦堃資深大律師:主席,下一位證人係董永基先生。董先生,早晨呀。 8 董永基先生:早晨。 9 杜淦堃資深大律師:麻煩你同你嘅同事一樣,將你面前嘅聲明企起身讀出嚟。 10 董永基先生:本人董永基聲明,本人所作的證供,盡本人所知、所悉及所信,均屬真實。 11 杜淦堃資深大律師:麻煩你。董先生,我哋知道你係負責呼吸器組嘅工作嘅,所以對消防員 12 嘅裝備,呢個你係可以協助到我哋嘅? 13 董永基先生:係呀,冇錯。 14 杜淦堃資深大律師:你都喺消防處服務咗好耐喇,我哋睇到記錄你2002 年加入,而家都服 15 務咗二十四個年頭。你做同設備有關嘅工作都係做咗一段時間,係咪呀? 16 董永基先生:前後夾埋六年。 17 杜淦堃資深大律師:你準備咗兩份好有用嘅供詞,係喺WS4 同埋WS15 裏面嘅,相信你都覆 18 核過,亦都有確認裏面嘅內容。 19 董永基先生:係,冇錯。 20 杜淦堃資深大律師:大家都對今次大火所衍生嘅消防裝備有一啲嘅問題想你協助我哋,第一 21 樣裝備,亦都對前線嘅同事係好緊要係個呼吸器嘅問題,你喺你嘅供詞都有交代 22 過,但係我為咗畀大家容易啲去理解,我想你都睇一睇啲相去幫一幫我哋。喺 23 B9/4783 頁,呢個係你哋提供嘅文件,我哋見到呼吸器,呢度有張相亦都好清楚 24 咁展示咗呼吸器由幾個唔同嘅配件組成,你嘅供詞亦都解釋咗,我哋呢度見到個腰 25 背帶、見到個器樽、跟住連住器樽嘅管道,然之後仲有個面罩同埋連接住個面罩嘅 26 氣管嘅,呢個係佢主要嘅部件,係咪? 27 董永基先生:係,冇錯。 28 杜淦堃資深大律師:之前委員會都有同你嘅同事探討過,但係可能你係最合適去處理呢方面 29 嘅證人,係關於個呼吸器嘅容量。因為我問咗啲問題,我哋見到你喺第二份證人供 30 詞,啱啱新嗰份都有解釋過嘅,喺宏福苑係用咗8 公升嘅氣樽,呢個似乎沿用咗都 31 好幾年嘅,2014 開始用嘅,係咪? 32 董永基先生:係,冇錯,係由2014 年5 月引入,一直用到26 年嘅1 月。 33 杜淦堃資深大律師:根據我哋嘅資料,理論上高應該係消防員同事係會可以用到三十三分 34

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十八天

2 本謄本由Epiq 編製 鐘,但係呢個正如你嘅同事亦都解釋過,呢個亦都視乎個人個消耗量、佢呼吸個速 1 度,即係有其他因素影響,但係三十三分鐘係個約數,可唔可以咁講? 2 董永基先生:冇錯,佢個工作時間係三十三分鐘嘅。 3 杜淦堃資深大律師:而整個系統嘅重量就係13.5 公斤,係咪? 4 董永基先生:係,冇錯。 5 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋知道你喺第二份證人供詞第6 段,WS15/2196 頁呢,呢個其實係 6 一個已經升級咗嘅系統嚟嘅,之前嘅裝置個氣樽嘅工作時間係二十八分鐘嘅,你都 7 可以或者同大家講一講,呢個之前同之後,你哋系統呢啲嘅進步或者改良有關方面 8 嘅證據。 9 董永基先生:係,咁嗰個MSA 嗰個8L 氣樽其實喺2014 年嘅5 月係引入部門使用,之前係 10 用緊一個6.7 升樽嘅,其實引入之前我哋部門亦都有做過--喺2010 年嘅時候做 11 過研究,其實研究結果發現8 升係最適合㗎嘞,呢個樽個優勝嘅地方係咩嘢呢?就 12 係話佢個樽嘅容量大咗,個氣量變相多咗接近兩成20%,但係個重量就反而輕啲 13 嘅,由7.5 Kilo 減到去7.3 Kilo,即係話喺嗰個重量冇增加,反而減少嘅情 14 況之下,氣量用嘅時間係增加咗,呢個就係嗰個科技嘅進步喇,時代發展嘅結果。 15 杜淦堃資深大律師:如果我哋睇第9 段,呢度你都講到嗰個氣樽喺之後引入咗,喺今年1 月 16 嘅時間,其實係引入咗一啲新嘅呼吸氣系統,呢個或者你都可以同委員會或者公眾 17 解釋下。 18 杜淦堃資深大律師:因為我哋MSA 嗰個嘅呼吸器其實用咗十五年喇,所以我哋就喺26 年嘅 19 時候就更換咗新嘅,換咗一個新嘅,叫做(English Spoken)呢個牌子嘅新嘅 20 BA。呢個亦都係喇,隨住科技進步,咁個氣樽喺個設計同埋嗰個物料上面就再輕 21 咗,就係7.3 減到去7.1 Kilo,而我哋亦都仍然維持番係用8 升嘅器樽,咁8 22 升300 個bar 氣樽,咁嗰個理論嘅工作時間亦都係維持喺三十三分鐘。 23 杜淦堃資深大律師:跟住你去到你嘅第二份證人供詞B 部分,如果你去2197 開始,你就解 24 釋咗畀大家聽,其實消防處係有一啲工作時間更持久嘅呼吸器嘅,但係喺今次嘅行 25 動,你哋就覺得冇實質嘅需要或者效果,亦都嗰啲呼吸器其實都有佢嘅極限,可能 26 懷疑有啲缺點,你哋都會持續改良。但對於嗰啲其他嘅呼吸器,你都可唔可以解釋 27 一下? 28 董永基先生:正如你啱啱剛才所講,我哋部門係有啲比較長時間工作啲嘅呼吸器嘅,但係其 29 實當其時嘅環境並不適合,我就咁列舉番,就係例如話有個閉路式嘅呼吸器, 30 CCBA,冇錯,佢個工作時間係可以三個小時,但係其實佢係唔適合--係唔可以喺 31 呢個火場裏面使用,即係有明火或者高輻射熱嘅環境下使用,所以呢個係已經唔可 32 以使用。 33 第二呢,另外有一個嘅,(English Spoken)喉管式嘅工作系統,理論上 34 如果駁條喉管喺個火場外面,不斷幫佢換樽,係可以無限咁耐,即係喺裏面工作嘅 35 同事可以用無限咁耐。但係佢係要駁住條喉管,如果睇番宏福苑當其時嘅情況,因 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十八天

3 本謄本由Epiq 編製 為啲同事係要孭住個BA,孭住個呼吸器係沿樓梯咁樣上,其實原樓梯佢條喉係拖唔 1 到上去嘅,佢係會纏住咗喺個梯間嗰度,所以喺現場亦都係唔能夠使用。 2 而第三個就係個TCBA,就即係個孖樽,即係話喺我哋嗰個--而家我哋用嘅BA 呼吸器呢就係 3 單樽嘅,咁加多一個樽畀佢,但係考慮到就係話加多個樽就會由13.5 kilo 嘅重 4 量就增加超過20 kilo,咁個負磅係相當之重。所以喺嗰個使用嘅時候我哋要考慮 5 番就係話又重咗,跟住入去火場嘅時候,基本上就上樓梯,嗰個體力嘅消耗同空氣 6 嘅消耗,即係樽嘅空氣嘅消耗就會多咗,變相其實對於嗰個成件事呢,個同事喺裏 7 面火場未必係一件即係有利嘅事情嚟㗎。除咗呢樣之外,我哋都要平衡番其實喺火 8 場裏面工作呢,喺個高熱環境三十三分鐘已經係相當之長嘅時間,其實越長嘅話 9 呢,咁咪有個--啱啱話體力消耗嘅,即係佢會(English Spoken ),佢會攰 10 喇,另外就係佢有熱衰竭嘅風險,過熱嘅話呢,其實喺火場亦都會令--即係輕則就 11 判斷錯誤,重則其實喺會火場裏面暈低,係甚至乎有傷亡。 12 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢個就係嗰個樽嘅問題,另外你亦都同我哋介紹咗嗰個面罩同埋有關嘅 13 部件,如果我哋去番B9,睇4784 頁,下低我哋就見你哋到而家用緊嘅面罩,我哋 14 見到有一度寫住(English Spoken)嗰個係個擴音器嚟㗎,係咪呀? 15 董永基先生:係,冇錯。 16 杜淦堃資深大律師:同埋係應該有個顯示屏,佢哋帶咗呢個面罩係會睇到剩番幾多氣? 17 董永基先生:係,冇錯,呢度個圖上面可能睇得唔清楚,其實佢有個叫做HUD,叫抬頭顯示 18 器,喺擺喺個面罩裏面係有個HUD 嘅。 19 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢個呼吸器呢,根據你哋提供嘅資料有兩個開關嘅似乎,一個就喺個氣 20 樽上面開關,用嚟控制個氣樽輸出氣體。第二個就係叫做(English 21 Spoken ),呢個就控制有幾多氣入個面罩嘅,係咪?即係有兩個(English 22 Spoken)。 23 董永基先生:係,冇錯。嗰個(English Spoken )係供氣閥,即係話個同事使用嘅時 24 候,佢既要先開咗個氣樽嗰個總掣喇,畀咗氣落去,咁去到(English 25 Spoken)嗰度就再啟動埋個(English Spoken),咁先至吸到氣嘅。 26 杜淦堃資深大律師:跟住去到另外一個部件,如果我哋睇之後嗰一頁,我哋見到呼吸器有個 27 叫做(English Spoken)嘅裝置,你可唔可以解一解釋呢一個裝置嘅作用? 28 董永基先生:其實呢一個係一個無線電信號嘅裝置,即係佢其實係駁通個衛士同埋嗰個 29 (English Spoken),即係嗰個抬頭顯示器,因為嗰個衛士同埋嗰個抬頭顯示 30 器係同呢個(English Spoken)唔係連線設計嚟㗎,係無線電嘅設計嚟㗎,所 31 以佢會將嗰個氣樽嗰個存量嘅資訊佢就透過一個無線電嘅方式傳送去啱啱例如抬頭 32 顯示器,嗰個同事就可以喺佢面罩裏面睇到佢仲有幾多嘅氣量。同樣呢個 33 (English Spoken)米特都會將嗰個信息傳去個(English Spoken),即 34 係個衛士嗰度,令到個衛士上面顯示到嗰個氣樽嘅存量。 35 杜淦堃資深大律師:你可唔可以講一講你指「衛士」係一樣咩嘢嘅裝置? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十八天

4 本謄本由Epiq 編製 董永基先生:衛士係即係啱啱圖片上面嗰個(English Spoken),佢係一個個人警報裝 1 置,咁就係話,首先個人警報方面就係... 2 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋而家睇緊呢個嘞? 3 董永基先生:冇錯,就係我哋而家睇緊呢個。咁就係personal alarm system,佢個警 4 報係點樣做呢?有兩個情況佢會發出警報嘅,第一就係佢撳個白色嗰個alarm 5 button,即係話如果個同事喺個火場裏面遇險,佢自己可以撳呢個掣求救。另一 6 個情況就係話呢,如果呢個衛士佢detect 到喇,佢感應到嗰個係冇任何嘅郁動, 7 okay,個同事係冇任何郁動,係靜止嘅狀態超過30 秒,即係話呢,可能個火場裏 8 面有(English Spoken)嘅情況,一個同事佢遇險,佢亦都會自己自動著一個 9 嘅叫做(English Spoken),就會有個動態警報,咁呀發出求救信號。除咗呢 10 個警報信號之外,其實佢仲會有好多嘅顯示,包括啱啱你喺圖上面睇到,會有個 11 (English Spoken),最重要其實亦就係個(English Spoken),就係話 12 嗰個氣樽嘅存量有幾多呢?我哋個氣樽啱啱所講,嗰個叉滿咗,滿咗樽就係300 個 13 bar,一路用嘅時候,個同事就會睇到嗰個bar 數會慢慢下降,咁就係提示佢係咩 14 嘢時候要離開個火場。 15 杜淦堃資深大律師:另外一個重要嘅裝置,如果我哋睇番B9/4944 頁,呢個,呢個係叫做 16 (English Spoken),你哋叫做FLS。 17 董永基先生:係。 18 杜淦堃資深大律師:根據你哋提供嘅資料,呢個係喺2016 年牛頭角個迷你倉大火之後引入 19 嘅一個裝備嚟嘅,或者你都可以同我哋介紹一下佢嘅用處,同埋點樣去運作。 20 董永基先生:係,圖上面有兩個裝置,左手面嗰個就係一個接收器嚟嘅,HHR ,接收器嚟 21 嘅,右面嗰個PT 就係個人嘅一個發放信號器。咁即係話咩嘢呢?個同事就會入火 22 場嘅時候,會拎住右手面嗰個,掛住喺個(English Spoken)上面嘅,呼吸器 23 上面,咁呀入火場。入去火場之前就擝咗下面嗰條紅色嘅匙,咁就著咗佢,就係亦 24 都係好似啱啱嗰個衛士咁樣,佢有兩個嘅啟動一個alarm 嘅模式,一個就佢自己 25 撳住個掣,咁可以撳著佢,即係自己遇險撳著佢。另一個方式就係又係佢唔郁,佢 26 (English Spoken),咁即係佢感應唔到嗰個同事有郁動,呢個就四十五秒之 27 後佢就會發出一個求救信號。但係呢個同嗰個點解又會即係引入相同嘅--即係好以 28 相同嘅工具呢,呢一個呢,其實個好處就係話呢,佢除咗喺發送alarm 嘅時候佢 29 會有閃燈,佢會有聲響之餘,佢會有個電波嘅信號。咁個電波嘅信號就係左手面嗰 30 個receiver,就係個接收器,嘗試去--嗰個拯救隊去搵佢嘅時候,就可以用呢個 31 接收器去探測佢個電波訊號,憑住嗰個電波信號嘅強弱,咁慢慢去搵到佢個方向同 32 埋位置,就係去嘗試去搵到個同事出嚟嘅。 33 杜淦堃資深大律師:你啱啱都提到喇,如果我哋睇番個PT 呢,右手面嗰個裝置喇,你提到 34 有條紅色嘅匙,呢一個紅色嘅匙你話應該係會擝咗出嚟嘅如果啟動嗰陣,係咪呀? 35 董永基先生:係,冇錯。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十八天

5 本謄本由Epiq 編製 杜淦堃資深大律師:而擝咗出嚟之後,嗰條紅色嘅匙,嗰位消防員係會交畀同事吖,定係載 1 住,定係點㗎? 2 董永基先生:咁樣嘅,其實孭呼吸器入去火場之前係必須要經過一個叫做入口指揮站嘅,入 3 口指揮站嗰度會有個入口指揮嘅主任,入去之前會做一啲嘅(English 4 Spoken),一啲排查工作,okay,就確保佢係安全。其中一樣工作就係要擝咗呢 5 條紅色嘅匙,交咗畀個入口指揮主任,係確保呢個PT 係啟動嘅,先至畀佢進入火 6 場。 7 杜淦堃資深大律師:而當然你哋畀前線同事去使用呢啲裝備亦都通過一系列嘅培訓,我哋都 8 見到有啲培訓嘅紀錄,所以其實每個前線嘅同事其實對呢一度每一項嘅裝備點樣去 9 運用,同埋你哋自己嘅內部指引都係好熟悉嘅其實。 10 董永基先生:係,冇錯。 11 杜淦堃資深大律師:當然,大家會有啲--會關注喺今次嘅大火裏面,即係好不幸何偉豪先生 12 就罹難,我哋睇其他你哋嘅隊目裏面,睇到佢哋畀警方嘅證供見到有咁嘅情況嘅。 13 有一位周耀宗,粉嶺消防局嘅隊目,佢提到當日喺淩晨1 點30 分,即係去到11 14 月27 號,燒咗好幾個鐘頭之後,就收到任務到宏泰閣嘅天台,佢哋發現就去唔到 15 個天台當時,但係佢哋入咗宏泰閣31 樓個走廊。走到走廊中間喺電梯門對出個位 16 置發現咗一副何偉豪嘅呼吸器係喺嗰度見到,除此之外,佢哋仲搵到面罩同埋頭 17 盔,我哋而家顯示喺401 頁有關嘅警方--佢落畀錄方嘅口供。同時佢哋有一隻手 18 套同一個錘,佢哋都搵到,放咗喺窗邊。呢位隊目亦都繼續講佢試過何偉豪嘅呼吸 19 器,發現嗰個空氣閥似乎係運作正常,而佢嘅另一名隊員亦都檢查個呼吸器,發現 20 佢嘅裏面--你頭先講到嗰個衛士喇,同埋個氣樽似乎出現咗損壞嘅,睇番嗰個氣樽 21 嘅存量就係0 bar,即係冇晒氣㗎嘞嗰陣。呢個當然你都有提過你哋係調查過呢個 22 情況。因為你哋火災之後對於有同事不幸罹難,去檢查番佢嘅裝備而做出有關嘅報 23 告,你哋都係做咗一啲幾全面嘅工夫,你哋嘅報告亦都提交咗畀委員會,呢份報告 24 我相信你有份處理嘅,係咪? 25 董永基先生:係,冇錯。 26 杜淦堃資深大律師:如果喺B9/4779 頁,我哋見到呢一份報告,第一件事我想你幫一幫我 27 哋就係,發現呼吸器嘅時候,似乎周耀宗留意到呼吸器同埋面罩係分開咗嘅?正常 28 情況之下會唔會係分開呢兩個裝置? 29 董永基先生:正常係分開㗎。 30 杜淦堃資深大律師:正常分開嘅? 31 董永基先生:即係如果我同事除低咗嘅時候呢,佢首先除set 之前呢,第一件事就係甩開嗰 32 個供氣閥,就係個demand valve,咁一甩開咗呢,其實面罩同副set 就分開咗 33 㗎嘞。 34 杜淦堃資深大律師:係嘞,所以應該就係如果佢分開咗,應該係除咗嗰陣--有個可能就係除 35 嗰陣拆開咗嘅。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十八天

6 本謄本由Epiq 編製 董永基先生:冇錯。 1 杜淦堃資深大律師:應該就個情況係咁。如果我哋去4793,你哋亦都有啲圖片分別指有一 2 個叫做-- 我哋呢度英文見到佢話(English Spoken )同埋(English 3 Spoken),你可唔可以解一解就係呢啲部件其實佢哋嘅功用係點?喺邊個部分? 4 同埋你哋見到嗰個情況呢之後去檢驗? 5 董永基先生:其實氣樽係分為兩part 嘅,第一就係個樽身,樽身,跟住第二就係個 6 valve,valve 其實就係駁喺上面,佢個開關掣,咁個開關掣顧名思義就喺使用時 7 候我哋有下面第三個圖喇,就有個(English Spoken),有個扭嗰個掣就係去 8 開同埋閂,去咁樣操作嗰個氣樽嘅。 9 杜淦堃資深大律師:而你見到呢度佢就話有個損壞嘅情況,呢個損壞嘅情況,我相信唔會係 10 常見㗎喇平時? 11 董永基先生:非常之罕見。 12 杜淦堃資深大律師:非常之罕見,係。你哋睇番你哋檢驗過呢啲部件,你哋會唔會講到根據 13 你哋嘅經驗呢個情況個損壞原因可能係乜嘢呢? 14 董永基先生:而家我哋睇到個(English Spoken),即係手擰嗰個環甩咗出嚟,撞爛咗 15 出嚟。佢正常嚟講,佢裏面係一個金屬,金屬咁樣扭落去,其實係非常之堅硬,係 16 好難會可以咁樣爛嘅。咁正如我報告裏面亦都有提到,就係佢爛嘅可能--咪一個可 17 能係一個好大嘅撞擊力囉,係咪?好大嘅撞擊力。即係就算嗰樣嘢係金屬,佢如果 18 遇到好大嘅撞擊力佢都有機會爛,可能性係包括例如咩嘢呢?例如話會唔會除set 19 嘅時候,可能好緊急情況就咁抌落地撞爛呢?又或者有啲同事拎副set,拎副BA 20 拎過第二個地方嘅時候,咁經過啲狹窄環境撞到落牆身撞爛呢,係咪呀?呢啲都有 21 可能。咁而另外亦都有一個呢,我喺report 裏面都有講嘅,就有提及就係,會唔 22 會個同事係孭住副BA 嘅時候佢跣低撞落地撞爛呢?呢個機會比較少啲嘅,因為其 23 實佢係會好(English Spoken )嘅,更加(English Spoken )嘅,點解 24 呢?就係我哋睇到上面呢幅圖,其實上面幅圖左下角個位置有個膠塞嗰啲嗰個位置 25 喺度㗎,其實嗰個氣樽,個樽嗰個(English Spoken)頂嗰度就有呢個膠塞, 26 撞落地嘅時候佢係會一個避震,即係shock absorber,okay,即係係防撞爛嘅 27 就係幫佢。第二,其實除咗個氣樽之餘,個背架喺下面個位置,其實亦都有個防撞 28 膠喺度,個防撞膠仲係仲要凸咗出嚟,保護住呢個氣樽,所以呢個係更加困難,但 29 係至於你話可唔可以確實到究竟佢係點樣爛點樣盛呢,因為啱啱提到嗰個衛士喇, 30 個衛士,其實佢係會記錄咗嗰個氣樽當其時用氣嗰個嘅用氣量。因為嗰個衛士就係 31 損壞咗,咁裏面嘅資料我哋嘗試去將佢即係搵供應商cop.番出嚟,裏面啲資料係 32 遺失咗㗎。 33 杜淦堃資深大律師:麻煩你。我哋見到另外呢,你喺6.1.1 段,報告裏面4791 頁,就你 34 哋檢查有關嘅裝備呢,你哋都另外有幾點係提出嘅。譬如第三點就叫做 35 “(English Spoken)”,即係唔係燒爛咗嘅似乎係。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十八天

7 本謄本由Epiq 編製 董永基先生:係,冇錯。 1 杜淦堃資深大律師:第二就 “ (English Spoken )” ,呢個你可以用你嘅-- 第七, 2 sorry,第十二點,應該下一頁。呢個你可唔可以解一解畀我哋聽,其實係邊個部 3 件同邊個部件仲係黐埋? 4 董永基先生:落低少少。係嘞,咁呀見到嘞,(English Spoken)就個位置就係啱啱右 5 手面,即係嗰嚿黑色嗰嚿吊進,喺條腰帶嗰舊,其實嗰個(English Spoken) 6 其實就係嗰個白色個牌仔,下面嗰個白色個牌仔,理論上如果經過咗入口指揮站, 7 呢個牌仔呢,啱啱就話,嗰個(English Spoken)咪有條紅色嘅匙,其實紅色 8 嘅匙,包括埋呢個白色嘅牌仔都係會交畀嗰個入口指揮主任,即係如果佢仲掛喺度 9 嘅話,咁好明顯佢冇就經過一個入口指揮程序喇。 10 杜淦堃資深大律師:跟住我哋見到第十四點,你哋都提到“(English Spoken)”,跟 11 住你見就去到Figure 19,Figure 19 就係喺4795 頁,你頭先都解釋過,似 12 乎就係紅色嗰條匙仲係插住,呢個意味住啲咩嘢?或者你都同大家解釋一下。 13 董永基先生:意味住嗰部機係未著嘅。即係話如果個同事啱啱所講,佢想撳求救,當然喇, 14 佢如果想自己撳一個求救嘅話,佢可以自己擝咗條紅色匙撳着佢都得嘅,okay。又 15 或者嗰個啱啱個(English Spoken),即係如果感應唔到佢有郁動嘅話,咁佢 16 未擝條匙著機呢,就唔會啟動。 17 杜淦堃資深大律師:所以呢個亦都同之前你睇到嗰個(English Spoken)個情況一樣, 18 其實呢個就應該係入火場前擝咗交咗畀另一位同事,係咪? 19 董永基先生:係,冇錯。 20 杜淦堃資深大律師:另外,你講二十,你話“(English Spoken)”,即係嗰把刀就唔 21 喺嗰個刀袋裏面。 22 董永基先生:唔。 23 杜淦堃資深大律師:換句話講,似乎睇番呢啲裝備,可唔可以咁講呢?你哋應該係排除咗有 24 關嘅裝備係畀火燒壞咗嘅,似乎係冇畀火燒過嘅痕跡嘅? 25 董永基先生:冇畀火燒過。 26 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋見到你第一份證人供詞嘅7.7 段你都有解釋過嘅,喺何偉豪呢個情 27 況,雖然個系統似乎係冇啟動,但係其實實質上可能都唔會有好大嘅分別,因為其 28 實而家個裝置,你提到去到30 樓嘅時候,其實地下嘅同事其實應該係因為個距離 29 係應該都係探測唔到嗰個位置嘅,你都可以解一解呢個畀大家聽。 30 董永基先生:因為佢呢--啱啱剛才所講,如果佢啟動咗個求救信號嘅時候呢,佢係會有啲電 31 波射出嚟嘅。一來距離喇,係咪?但係其實距離唔係最重要嘅嘢,喺呢個case 反 32 而。就係因為佢喺30 樓、31 樓呀,係嗰個電波嘅反射,因為佢嗰度呢,如果喺地 33 下探測佢嘅話,咁會經過好多嘅石屎層板,即係嗰啲石屎層板又會反射咗啲電波信 34 號,又或者會吸收咗,所以喺地下係唔會收到佢嘅信號。 35 杜淦堃資深大律師:另外,如果咁樣推斷亦都會唔會合理呢?其實當時你哋搵到呢套系統其 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十八天

8 本謄本由Epiq 編製 實已經唔喺佢身上高,所以其實佢係除咗嘅,係咪?即係所有呢啲系統。 1 董永基先生:搵到佢嘅時候? 2 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係我哋見到呢個FLS,其實佢同其他裝置一齊係除低咗喺30 或者31 3 樓,係咪? 4 董永基先生:係,冇錯。 5 杜淦堃資深大律師:係嘞,所以本身同消防員佢係分開咗嘅,而呢個情況平時應該你唔會預 6 計會出現嘅? 7 董永基先生:冇錯。 8 杜淦堃資深大律師:當然,我哋知道香港其實高樓大廈好多,就呢個FLS 嘅系統如果喺呢個 9 情況之下,其實係咪都偵測唔到,呢個相信會係一個可以改良嘅--有改良嘅空間, 10 係咪? 11 董永基先生:冇錯,其實我哋而家部門亦都係採購緊一個新嘅定位系統,呢個其實甚至乎係 12 喺呢個火警發生之前已經係做緊嘅事嚟嘞。 13 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋知道呢... 14 陸啟康法官:新系統有咩嘢進步呀,即係如果喺探測方面會唔會高啲嘅能... 15 董永基先生:呢個新系統就會係--應該咁樣講,呢個新系統佢一樣係用電波嘅,不過佢就係 16 會用兩款唔同嘅電波,佢有一個係叫做低--有低頻同高頻,佢低頻嘅好處就係穿透 17 力會強啲,同埋佢係可以轉到彎,okay,可以繞過一啲嘅障礙物。除此之外,佢其 18 實唔單止係可以--即係佢唔係--而家我哋用緊呢個淨係個電波嘅強弱啫,但係嗰個 19 佢係可以有埋個方向,佢係可以有埋個箭嘴指埋嗰個方向。同埋如果距離近,喺三 20 十米以內,佢係可以顯示埋我而家同個被救者嘅距離,而另一方面呢,其實喺呢一 21 個case 就會有用,就係佢亦都可以顯示到我同被救者個高度相差係幾多?即係如 22 果佢喺30 樓嘅話,佢大概顯示可能相差90 米,咁我知道佢一定喺樓上面。咁而家 23 我哋用緊嗰個就冇呢個功能嘅。 24 陸啟康法官:如果係高度可以用到幾多--新嗰個系統,譬如佢嗰層樓嗰個,佢--你有冇做過 25 評估佢可以幾多層樓都可以收到呢啲咁嘅信號? 26 董永基先生:咁樣嘅,其實我哋評估係事實上係做咗,仲要係近期做嘅。其實我哋就係喺一 27 個23 樓,即係我哋試就係攞呢個舊嘅同新嘅,喺一個23 樓嘅環境去做,咁其實即 28 使喺23 樓,舊呢款已經冇任何信號收得到,咁遑論30 樓,係咪?咁而新嗰款係仍 29 然收到信號嘅。 30 杜淦堃資深大律師:如果用距離嚟計,而家嘅FLS 系統,其實嗰個--我哋--我當然我明白 31 有障礙物嘅問題,或者當時火警嘅環境,個距離,個(English Spoken),我 32 哋叫做,係收到幾多米? 33 董永基先生:佢個直線距離,直線距離無阻隔係800 米嘅。 34 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係呢個係一個正如你所講,一個無阻隔嘅情況之下? 35 董永基先生:冇錯。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十八天

9 本謄本由Epiq 編製 杜淦堃資深大律師:系統本身,即係呢個技術本身有其他嘅障礙? 1 董永基先生:係,冇錯。 2 杜淦堃資深大律師:另外我都想你去協助我哋嘅,就係關於何偉豪消防員最後嘅行蹤,同埋 3 佢除咗嗰個呼吸器,大家都有疑問關於呢一個情況,似乎個證據--我哋收到嘅證據 4 就顯示,其實何偉豪大概喺15:15 嘅時候,係喺宏泰閣25 樓,而喺15:22 嘅時 5 候,佢係喺30 樓發出求救信號,最後個呼吸器喺31 樓搵到,31 樓嘅窗係被打爛 6 咗,亦都我哋知道,所以似乎而家有嘅證據,大家去推斷,亦都相信係你哋嘅推 7 斷,當時佢係爬咗出窗口個棚架嗰度嘅,咁樣講準唔準確? 8 董永基先生:咁樣,因為我係呼吸器組,我係就住嗰個(English Spoken)--嗰個呼吸 9 器嗰副(English Spoken)嘅檢查,去喺呢份(English Spoken)度畀意 10 見,咁而究竟調查嗰位同事究竟嗰陣時當時遇到啲咩嘢情況,可能我有另外一啲組 11 別嘅同事會更加喺呢方面提供到啲資料畀你哋嘅。 12 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白。好讓大家知道我哋講緊啲咩嘢,我明白可其他做調查嘅同事處理 13 呢個問題更加適合,但係好讓大家我哋--知道我哋討論緊嗰個情況,如果你去--大 14 家睇下B5/3218,我哋就會見到當時打爛咗嗰個窗。落少少或者縮細少少會睇到全 15 面啲,係。當然,我哋--你對於整個呼吸系統嗰個--一個消防員戴咗有關嘅系統, 16 所牽涉嗰個尺寸或者嗰個尺碼,你會清楚啲。我哋知道何消防員都係一個非常高大 17 嘅同事,如果我哋就咁睇番呢個窗,我哋嘅推斷就係如果佢戴住晒成個系統,應該 18 係出唔到去,呢個你會唔會同意? 19 董永基先生:同意。 20 杜淦堃資深大律師:我明白呢一個可能會牽涉一個你哋嘅判斷,但係--或者都可以講畀大家 21 知,到而家你哋判斷,會唔會係因為其實個系統當時受損壞,所以佢除低,然之後 22 就喺窗門嗰度嘗試逃生,定係你哋其實覺得現有嘅證據其實都係講唔到? 23 董永基先生:我哋理解就唔係嗰個工具嘅問題,因為正如(English Spoken)裏面亦都 24 有提到,嗰副(English Spoken)佢係會有做半年試嘅,而剛剛喺10 月嘅時 25 候就做咗個半年試。咁而亦都會每日有個日試嘅,即係同事每日返工嘅時候,都會 26 為副(English Spoken)進行日試嘅,而根據紀錄,何偉豪佢當日朝頭早係有 27 做到日試,係運作正常嘅。 28 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,我哋見到。或者我想澄清一下,我哋見到似乎有個證據就唔係話嗰 29 個成個系統本身進入火場嘅時候係損壞咗,而係似乎係入咗火場之後,我哋頭先就 30 見到有一啲損毀,所以就可唔可以咁講?個損毀同佢及後嘅行為,大家都見到而家 31 嘅證據,但係至於點解佢咁做,其實都冇一啲進一步嘅證據講到畀我哋聽當時嘅情 32 況,咁樣講會唔會係一個準確嘅講法? 33 董永基先生:係,因為正如剛才所講,即係啱啱講個氣樽個樽頭損壞嘅時候,即係我就可能 34 有啲即係或者撞擊,會有其他一啲嘅原因,但係呢個因為嗰個衛士佢個(English 35 Spoken)係損壞咗,裏面嘅資料係轉唔到出嚟,即係如果可以睇得到嗰啲資料嘅 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十八天

10 本謄本由Epiq 編製 話,其實應該可以斷定到,但係如果而家就會變咗係,究竟佢係使用嘅時候、使用 1 後或者係同事運送嘅時候令到嗰個樽頭撞爛,其實而家係冇實質嘅證據去指示到。 2 杜淦堃資深大律師:而我哋頭先你講到嗰個(English Spoken),即係嗰個衛士,係咪 3 就係? 4 董永基先生:係,冇錯。 5 杜淦堃資深大律師:損壞咗嗰個原因,你哋查唔查到係撞擊、水浸咗定係點? 6 董永基先生:咁樣嘅,咁嗰副(English Spoken),成副BA(English Spoken)其 7 實喺27 同28 號就分別即係送咗去我哋--即係有同事搵到,就交番去畀我哋嘅呼 8 吸器室,咁我哋喺12 月1 號嘅時候,就已經即刻叫原廠係嚟我哋嗰個沙田呼吸器 9 室就對嗰副(English Spoken )就作出檢查,其實睇到嗰副(English 10 Spoken),當其時就係嘗試想轉啲資料出嚟,咁開機開唔到。咁就睇到佢裏面有 11 啲嘅水漬,咁即係個螢光幕上面有啲嘅水紋,有啲水漬,咁佢--嗰個工程師佢就嘗 12 試打開,即係扭螺絲,打開嗰個嘅衛士,咁就發現咗裏面嗰啲電池,裏面嗰啲電池 13 格嘅位置好多鏽跡,入晒水喺裏面,咁再打開埋個電池格裏面個電路板嗰度,連個 14 電路板嗰度都濕咗水。所以就係相信就係喺火場裏面,即係畀水浸住,所以浸壞咗 15 嘅。 16 咁而我亦都提供多少少資料,嗰個--嗰個衛士佢係有一啲防水嘅標準嘅,但係 17 嗰個標準就係講緊就係水深佢可以浸一米,就半個鐘頭,半個鐘頭。但係喺--因為 18 據嗰個搵到呢副(English Spoken)嘅同事話番畀我哋知,都睇番現場情況就 19 係,嗰副(English Spoken)喺天台搵到嘅,咁而喺浸咗喺上面,喺個天台上 20 面係水浸浸咗嘅,大概係15 到20cm 嘅水深喥,副(English Spoken)連埋 21 嗰個衛士係浸咗喺嗰個位置,相信喺嗰度擺咗係超過十七個鐘頭先至拎落嚟,咁變 22 咗就係可能有水就咁滲咗入去,就令到佢生鏽,冇咗啲資料。 23 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白。點都好,我諗我哋而家睇到嘅證據都知道點解何消防員會去到咁 24 高嘅位置,係因為佢接到消息要上去救人嘅。 25 董永基先生:係,冇錯。 26 杜淦堃資深大律師:所以呢個係--呢個嘅相關嘅證據係好清楚。 27 董永基先生:係。 28 杜淦堃資深大律師:另外我想同你探討嘅就係--或者咁講,就呼吸器,因為你都做咗個詳盡 29 嘅報告,我頭先嘗試即係--你亦都解釋得好清楚畀參加聽證會嘅市民去聽你個有關 30 嘅報告嘅內容,有冇嘢你想補充㗎?你覺得,因為你嘅報告好全面。 31 董永基先生:暫時沒有。 32 杜淦堃資深大律師:冇。另外一樣我想你幫一幫我哋嘅,就係你頭先提都提過,其實消防員 33 進入火場需要有位叫--有位指揮官(English Spoken),佢處理個入口,入口 34 指揮官。 35 董永基先生:係,冇錯。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十八天

11 本謄本由Epiq 編製 杜淦堃資深大律師:佢記錄嗰個呼吸器嗰個會有個行動表格去記錄低佢入場,同埋當時嗰個 1 呼吸器個情況。我都想問一問你就係,嗰個入口指揮官個職責同埋佢要記錄低嘅其 2 實係啲乜嘢?可唔可以解一解畀大家聽? 3 董永基先生:個入口指揮官嘅職責就係,第一件事,記錄嗰啲同事嘅進出,知道邊個喺火場 4 裏面工作緊,咁喺入去之前,亦都要指派佢哋唔同嘅任務。咁入去之前,有個 5 (English Spoken),有個行動嘅紀錄表,咁而個紀錄表最重要就係喺左手面 6 嗰... 7 杜淦堃資深大律師:或者我畀你睇一睇個紀錄表先,係呢個,係咪? 8 董永基先生:係,冇錯。 9 杜淦堃資深大律師:我見到有啲好似係有啲痕喺上高,係咪其實呢個係一個膠板,我哋平時 10 見到白板嚟? 11 董永基先生:係,冇錯,呢個係一個--一塊膠板嚟。 12 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁寫上去,其實係用我哋平時用... 13 董永基先生:蠟筆。 14 杜淦堃資深大律師:...--我哋嗰啲白板嗰啲我哋叫做(English Spoken),係咪? 15 董永基先生:唔係,因為(English Spoken)寫落去,唔覺意就會--即係就會... 16 杜淦堃資深大律師:嗄,呢個係冇咁易擦得甩嘅,係咪? 17 董永基先生:係,呢啲係蠟筆嚟嘅。 18 杜淦堃資深大律師:蠟筆嚟嘅。好,你可以繼續解釋畀大家聽。 19 董永基先生:係。咁就係入去嘅時候,咁嗰個有位指揮主任佢會填寫佢嘅資料,包括--我由 20 左手面講起就係,佢喺邊個車更,例如話可能係沙田細搶救,配戴者就係該位同 21 事,跟住佢呼吸器有個編號嘅,咁佢就(English Spoken)埋個編號落去。 22 跟住最重要就係跟住嗰啲剔剔嗰啲位置,就係嗰個--一個--我哋叫做一個排查 23 表,即係進入火場之前,個入口指揮主任要確保個同事係做足咗個事情,咁包括咩 24 嘢,個佩戴束,其實個佩戴束即係就係確保佢係正確佩戴嗰副BA。 25 第二,就係個衛士,就係啱啱個(English Spoken)係著咗,有啟動。PT 26 就係啱啱嗰個個人警報器,就係嗰個--亦都係就係嗰條紅色嘅匙要擝出嚟,要啟動 27 咗嗰個嘅個人警報器。跟住有個識別卡,就係嗰個一個叫做(English 28 Spoken),係記錄咗佢個人資料嘅。 29 跟住就係個人牌,就係啱啱白色嗰個牌,即係呢啲都要確保佢全部機係有開 30 到,戴BA 有正確佩戴,okay。跟住就要再睇埋佢嘅氣壓,嗰陣時開咗氣樽,就係 31 睇佢嗰個位置上面佢有幾多氣壓。例如呢度我哋睇到就係有個係--第一個係300, 32 咁即係佢300 個氣壓,就滿,叉滿咗。咁對番右上角就有個表嘅,見到就係當壓力 33 係300 巴嘅時候,個工作時間就係三十三分鐘,即係話呢個同事正常嚟講,理論上 34 佢係可以喺火場裏面工作三十三分鐘。 35 跟住就再寫埋,跟住嗰行就係工時嘅分鐘就係佢寫咗二十九,咁點解寫二十 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十八天

12 本謄本由Epiq 編製 九,我哋係一team 人入火場嘅,咁我哋嘅工作時間就係攞最少氣量存量嗰個氣樽 1 去計,即係話例如話而家呢度係280,280,咁就--或者270,咁如果對番個表, 2 就係三十到或者二十九,三十或者二十九分鐘,咁佢就照樣寫咗落去。跟住就再寫 3 就實際工作時間,咁就可以從而就mark 埋佢嗰個預計,即係例如話2 點35 分入 4 去嘅話,咁加番廿九分鐘畀佢,咁大概係廿一點幾多分鐘要出番嚟咁樣樣。咁當其 5 時--咁右面就係指派佢嘅任務。 6 杜淦堃資深大律師:確保呢個紀錄齊全應該係入口指揮官嘅職責,係咪? 7 董永基先生:係,冇錯。 8 杜淦堃資深大律師:係。而好明顯嗰個點解要做呢一系列嘅步驟,其實第一,要確保有關嘅 9 裝置其實係正確咁佩戴,亦都有個紀錄就係邊個入咗火場、幾時入? 10 董永基先生:係,冇錯。 11 杜淦堃資深大律師:同埋佢啲--佢套裝備,佢套(English Spoken)係齊全,運作正常 12 都會係入去之前check 一check 嘅,我相信? 13 董永基先生:係,冇錯。 14 杜淦堃資深大律師:而亦都記錄咗佢出入嗰個時間,同埋正如你頭先所講,因為係齊出齊 15 入,所以就用最低氣嗰個--最少氣嗰個同事嘅時間嚟做一個標準。我哋見到其實如 16 果就睇番呢副牌,其實大家都用到好盡先出番嚟。 17 董永基先生:係,冇錯。 18 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢個其實--我明呢個係你哋一路用嘅習慣,呢個係一個手寫嘅表格,係 19 會躉喺邊度,其實係? 20 董永基先生:呢個表格會擺喺每一架前線車輛,即係包括升降台、細搶救、泵車,佢有個 21 箱,有個盒嘅,係。 22 杜淦堃資深大律師:你嘅證供都提到,而我哋頭先講啲裝備嘅時候,我相信大家都會猜想 23 到,其實當日個BA(English Spoken ),其實個紀錄係有唔齊全嘅狀況,係 24 咪? 25 董永基先生:係,冇錯。 26 杜淦堃資深大律師:而個原因你提到,可能當時因為環境因素,抄寫嘅時候可能會出錯,係 27 咪? 28 董永基先生:因為當日係即係呢個火係相當之大。 29 杜淦堃資深大律師:係。 30 董永基先生:所以牽涉嘅人數,牽涉嗰個嘅入口指揮其實相當之多,所以就係喺個即係紀錄 31 上面,即係會有啲瑕疵、唔完美嘅地方,咁正如啱啱所講,咁佢點解會有啲可能即 32 係呢啲嘅事情發生,就係例如話咁個(English Spoken)佢可能會用晒,當佢 33 用晒呢啲嘅(English Spoken ),因為火場嘅進入人次太多,咁佢個 34 (English Spoken)--我哋呢個(English Spoken)亦都唔係預咗會有一 35 個咁大嘅火。咁佢當佢用晒呢啲(English Spoken)嘅時候,個同事喺個火場 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十八天

13 本謄本由Epiq 編製 出番嚟,其實個(English Spoken)嘅重要性就減低咗,冇咁重要,咁佢有啲 1 嘅入口指揮主任佢就會選擇就係抹咗之前嗰啲紀錄,咁就重新再用過個(English 2 Spoken),變咗有啲就會冇咗、遺漏咗,咁有啲就可能佢自己用啲紙筆去記低, 3 但係變咗事後可能就保存得唔好,亦都會冇咗咁樣樣。 4 杜淦堃資深大律師:就紀錄保存呢方面,我諗大家都會覺得其實都係有佢嘅重要性,咁呢一 5 方面相信你哋都會考慮會唔會可以優化或者檢討,係咪? 6 董永基先生:會,其實我哋喺呢個火警之前,都已經嘗試即係睇緊唔同嘅一啲市場嘅產品, 7 睇下有冇辦法去優化佢嘅。例如就係即係如果講多少少,就係我哋嘗--我哋嚟緊會 8 引入一個電子嘅入口指揮板,咁變咗啲同事進入火場嘅時候,佢只係需要將佢張卡 9 插喺個電子嘅紀錄板上面,咁就會自動開始計時,開始知道佢係邊一個,咁變咗就 10 免卻咗搵手寫嘅麻煩,同埋即係可能手民之誤嘅出錯。 11 杜淦堃資深大律師:而嗰個出錯個影響係當然,當日其實一啲可能對重組有關,你哋行動嘅 12 紀錄可能係會冇咗,即係我明白大部分時間可能係唔需要擦咗佢寫過,因為出勤嘅 13 隊目可能冇今次咁多,但係即係似乎汲取咗今次嘅教訓,你哋都係有一啲優化嘅措 14 施,係咪? 15 董永基先生:係,其實我哋就住我哋部門嘅內部指引同埋工具,其實都係會不斷咁樣去檢討 16 同埋更新嘅,即係尤其是喺每一次嘅大火之後。 17 陸啟康法官:但係你話畀我聽,呢個即係用電子嘅入口控制嘅所謂系統,其實係咪你哋喺大 18 火之前你哋已經研究緊? 19 董永基先生:係,冇錯,冇錯。 20 杜淦堃資深大律師:好,另外我都想問下你,就係你哋提供嘅資料顯示,喺2023 年你哋... 21 陸啟康法官:我想問多樣嘢。 22 杜淦堃資深大律師:好。 23 陸啟康法官:喺攞資源方面有冇困難? 24 董永基先生:冇㗎,冇㗎,其實嗰個我哋已經係(English Spoken)咗錢㗎嘞。 25 杜淦堃資深大律師:資源永遠都係一個問題。 26 董永基先生:係。 27 陸啟康法官:係,因為--係,即係如果係資源有困難,咁當然我哋個委員會個建議就可能即 28 係要擺多啲喺呢度,咁我即係欣悉,即係資源呢方面係嗰個--即係會畀到你應該所 29 需要嘅資源。 30 董永基先生:感謝陸法官。 31 杜淦堃資深大律師:另外我想你協助我哋嘅就係,似乎有另外一個裝置你哋都提過嘅,資料 32 裏面,有個(English Spoken)呢個設備嘅,你可唔可以都解釋一下呢一個運 33 作? 34 董永基先生:係咪嗰個(English Spoken)? 35 杜淦堃資深大律師:係咪你頭先所講,你哋去嘗試去搵-- 優化嗰個定係另外一個系統 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十八天

14 本謄本由Epiq 編製 (English Spoken)? 1 董永基先生:哦,(English Spoken)另外一個系統嚟嘅。 2 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,可唔可以都解釋一下? 3 董永基先生:嗰個系統係我哋部門同一間大學去研究,同大學研究,最後係一間公司佢中 4 咗,okay。咁就係大概而家部門有八套到十套喥,其實佢最主要嘅係乜嘢嘢,其實 5 就係亦都係喺火場裏面去定位,知道嗰啲同事喺個火場裏面喺邊個位置,從而喺搜 6 救嘅時候,即係有出事--遇險出事嘅時候可以搵到佢返嚟。 7 咁佢個裝置嘅使用係點樣樣?就係話佢喺鞋底嗰度,裝一個嘅--水靴裏面,即 8 係進入火場之前喺個水靴嗰度裝一個發射裝置,去感應佢行嘅每一步,每個方--每 9 一步,咁就每個方向就發射番個信號出嚟,從而就喺出面個入口指揮嗰度可以睇到 10 一個嘅(English Spoken ),就係一個圖,就係嗰個同事入去火場直行、轉 11 彎、轉左、轉右,咁會知道佢喺個火場入面嘅位置,從而萬一,touch wood 佢出 12 事嘅時候,就可以根據佢入去嘅路線搵番佢出嚟。 13 杜淦堃資深大律師:提供嘅資料顯示,其實呢個叫(English Spoken )嘅(English 14 Spoken),其實係有使用嘅曾經,喺2023 年11 月流浮山有三級火,2024 年4 15 月洪水橋嘅四級大火,其實有使用過嘅,係咪? 16 董永基先生:係,冇錯。 17 杜淦堃資深大律師:係。我都想問下,喺今次嘅大火裏面有冇使用? 18 董永基先生:呢個唔喺我認知範圍裏面,我唔清楚。 19 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔,明白。董先生,多謝你,你嘅證供對於我哋要調查嘅範圍非常有 20 用,冇其他問題。 21 董永基先生:唔該晒。 22 陸啟康法官:各涉事方有冇問題想提問?政府方面代表。 23 孫靖乾資深大律師:我哋都冇其他嘅問題。 24 陸啟康法官:咁就唔該晒董Sir 嘅證供,咁對我哋真係調查嘅相當有用,唔該晒董Sir。我 25 哋下一位,我哋會係想一次過做抑或... 26 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋冇特別嘅意見,主席可以決定。下一位證人相信會一段時間。 27 陸啟康法官:咁或者開始先,好唔好?如果係咁。 28 杜淦堃資深大律師:好,下一位證人係陳慶勇副處長。 29

30 10 時50 分消防處消防區長(呼吸器)證人董永基先生作供完畢 31

32 10 時51 分消防處副處長(行動)證人陳慶勇先生開始作供 33

34 杜淦堃資深大律師:陳先生,早晨。正如你嘅同事一樣,麻煩你企起身讀一讀個聲明出嚟。 35 陳慶勇先生:本人陳慶勇聲明,本人所作嘅證供,盡本人所知、所悉及所信,均屬真實。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十八天

15 本謄本由Epiq 編製 杜淦堃資深大律師:多謝你,可以坐低。陳先生,資料顯示你係98 年入職消防處,所以你 1 到而家已經服務咗二十六年。 2 陳慶勇先生:二十七。 3 杜淦堃資深大律師:二十七年。你係2023 年升為消防處副處長(行動),係咪? 4 陳慶勇先生:正確。 5 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋喺你供詞提到,你負責管理嘅香港各區嘅消防總區,救援總區,同 6 埋行政支援同埋專業發展總區嘅? 7 陳慶勇先生:係。 8 杜淦堃資深大律師:你都提交咗一份證人供詞,喺WS8/1921 頁嘅,我相信你都可以確定供 9 詞嘅內容? 10 陳慶勇先生:確定。 11 杜淦堃資深大律師:你嘅供詞第8 段裏面提到,你當日係喺15:02 被通知去到火警被升為 12 三級,當時我相信喺升級之前,或者15:02 之前,你應該已經開始有留意到事態 13 嘅發展,咁講啱唔啱? 14 陳慶勇先生:啱。 15 杜淦堃資深大律師:同段你亦都講到,喺--你都指消防處當時已經收到五十個求助電話,你 16 知道火警燒到宏泰閣,而消防處當時已經派出咗十三架消防車,同埋六十一名消防 17 員到現場㗎嘞。 18 陳慶勇先生:係。 19 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想畀你睇一睇,為咗我哋令到大家更易明白你當時要處理嗰個情況同 20 嗰個困難,我想你哋去睇一睇一副相片嘅。可唔可以放大?呢個相片顯示嘅,你見 21 到相片上高有一啲嘅標記,呢個其實係委員會專家去睇咗我哋聽證會到現階段有嘅 22 證據,同埋當時一啲消防提供也好,或者喺其他管道攞到嘅影片,呢度顯示嘅其實 23 就係--大家都知道其實係每一棟大廈好多時燒得最犀利,或者起火初段已經見到有 24 火種嘅地方,都係嗰啲光井或者天井嚟嘅,所以呢度我哋就可以睇番,當時你哋要 25 面對嗰個情況,你會見到每一棟其實第一次喺天井嗰度--光井嗰度見到火柱嘅時間 26 嘅,所以你見到右手面,其實嗰個發展個速度係相當之快,所以我諗我哋 27 (English Spoken)住呢張相片喺個螢幕度,你就可以清晰啲咁睇到當時你要 28 處理嗰個情況。 29 我都想問一問你,喺你嘅經驗裏面,我哋知道其實短短十分鐘已經由--大概十 30 分鐘已經由第一棟燒到去第二棟,喺你咁多年喺消防處嘅經驗,你哋有冇處理過喺 31 短時間之內,有多過一棟大廈起火? 32 陳慶勇先生:冇。 33 杜淦堃資深大律師:所以其實咁多年,你哋處理嘅都係單棟起火,係冇咁樣蔓延到去另外一 34 棟大廈嘅,咁講會唔會準確? 35 陳慶勇先生:正確。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十八天

16 本謄本由Epiq 編製 杜淦堃資深大律師:所以咁我諗你都會同意,如果係咁,似乎睇今次火警個發展嗰個規模, 1 同埋你哋所面對嘅困難,其實全部嘢都係史無前例,可唔可以咁講? 2 陳慶勇先生:可以。 3 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋睇到你嘅供詞,就係收到處長指派你到現場,咁我見到我哋其實有 4 關嘅紀錄,如果我哋由而家去睇一睇B10/5119,其實都有相當嘅齊全嘅紀錄嘅。 5 我哋睇到15 點45 分,係,我哋見到你個右面寫住“RES”,呢個係(English 6 Spoken),係咪? 7 陳慶勇先生:正確。 8 杜淦堃資深大律師:係。而我哋知道你係及後已經好快就去到現場,喺16:10,你嘅證供第 9 11 段都提到,你已經去到宏福苑,當時已經係四級火,係咪? 10 陳慶勇先生:正確。 11 杜淦堃資深大律師:而當時嘅指揮官係副消防總長黃景文先生? 12 陳慶勇先生:係。 13 杜淦堃資深大律師:你11 段,你嘅證人供詞,如果我哋睇番第11 段,形容你到達現場嘅情 14 況同埋工作,我哋見到你呢度提到,其實火警已經喺嗰刹那已經蔓延到去好多棟其 15 他嘅大廈,而喺14:10 嘅時候,你都好快速咁,你喺呢度都提到,第四行 16 “(English Spoken)”,sorry,16:10,唔好意思,我哋--呢個係你嘅證 17 人供詞咁樣講嘅? 18 陳慶勇先生:係。 19 杜淦堃資深大律師:你講呢個“(English Spoken)”,你嘅理解係咪咁?其實你係當 20 時第一個作出呢一個決定嘅決策人? 21 陳慶勇先生:唔正確嘅。 22 杜淦堃資深大律師:其實應該係? 23 陳慶勇先生:其實當時我係同區長林浩俊係(English Spoken),即係佢話畀我聽,... 24 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,即係已經做緊? 25 陳慶勇先生:...疏散已經做緊。 26 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白。即係所以其實呢個只係你當時確認嘅啫? 27 陳慶勇先生:係。 28 杜淦堃資深大律師:至於幾時開始呢個疏散,你可唔可以講到畀我哋聽?如果係咁。 29 陳慶勇先生:根據我問番啲同事嘅資料,其實我哋當時嘅疏散係一去到現場已經有做㗎嘞, 30 咁我哋將大部分嘅人力資源就去咗喺宏泰同埋宏昌嗰度,我哋其實當時係想上樓去 31 疏散啲同事,但係因為已經有好多啲棚架跌咗落嚟,所以我哋要為啲居民打開一條 32 生路,因為連我哋啲同事其實都入唔到去。咁另... 33 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係換話句講,如果--我停一停你,唔好意思,即係你16:10 嗰陣, 34 你已經收到個信息就係,疏散嘅工作開始咗,但係因為宏泰、宏昌最嚴重,我哋睇 35 番其實頭先嗰張相片我哋都睇到嗰個起火時間,到16:10 嗰陣,其實基本上每個- 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十八天

17 本謄本由Epiq 編製 -宏泰同宏昌都有三面嘅光井係燒著晒嘅嗰陣。 1 陳慶勇先生:係。 2 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁當時就係你所講,要打番條路入去,就係喺個大堂正門嗰度打番入 3 去,係咪? 4 陳慶勇先生:係。 5 杜淦堃資深大律師:而當時--你嘅證供亦都提到,你另外一樣到場之後,了解咗就係何偉豪 6 先生嗰個(English Spoken)信號嘅情況? 7 陳慶勇先生:就住疏散嗰度,頭先,我想補充一下嘅。 8 杜淦堃資深大律師:補充一下,你繼續。 9 陳慶勇先生:咁我哋另外有派三位同事分別去到宏建、宏新、宏道,我哋想打個警鐘通知啲 10 居民疏散嘅,但係無奈個警鐘就唔響。 11 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白。 12 陳慶勇先生:所以當時我哋啲同事就集中去番控制個--遏止個火勢,令到--因為我哋其實當 13 時已經見到大概係三點半左右,就已經見到有啲居民陸續自己疏散出嚟,同埋警察 14 已經到場,依照我哋一向嘅合作,警察係會幫我哋疏散其他附近啲居民,所以我哋 15 集中我哋嘅去遏止個火勢,為啲居民爭取更多時間可以走到出嚟。 16 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢個喺喺16:10 之前已經發生緊? 17 陳慶勇先生:已經發生咗。 18 杜淦堃資深大律師:已經發生緊,所以如果我哋睇番張相,你去到見到嗰個情況,因為警察 19 已經到場正如你所講,而當時已經進行緊疏散,亦都見到有啲人走到,所以大部分 20 嘅資源就我哋睇番,大家相信而家都熟悉嗰個地理,係最右面嗰兩棟? 21 陳慶勇先生:冇錯。 22 杜淦堃資深大律師:而當時去到嘅時候,你頭先講話派同事響番嗰幾個警鐘,如果根據你嘅 23 證供,呢個係喺到場前已經做咗,定係你到場之後處理嘅其中一...(聽不清) 24 陳慶勇先生:到場前已經做咗。 25 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係你到場前已經知道火警警報系統係失效嘅? 26 陳慶勇先生:係。 27 杜淦堃資深大律師:你到場冇幾耐,16:18 新界北嘅消防總長鄧榮華先生佢就係變咗做個指 28 揮官,係咪?根據你哋嘅指引,四級火嘅時候都係應該由鄧Sir 做指揮官嘅,係 29 咪? 30 陳慶勇先生:冇錯。 31 杜淦堃資深大律師:你亦都同我哋講到,當時其實已經調派嘅人員係已經超越一個五級火調 32 派規模嘅兩倍,呢個係唔係你到場嘅時候已經係,定係喺邊個階段? 33 陳慶勇先生:到場嘅時候,我問流動指揮車嘅同事現場有幾多資源。 34 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想問下你嘅,就係如果升到五級火嘅時候就會係變咗你做指揮官,係 35 咪?喺你嘅編制上高。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十八天

18 本謄本由Epiq 編製 陳慶勇先生:正確。 1 杜淦堃資深大律師:而根據你嘅證供24 段,如果我哋去番你嘅證人供詞24 段,我想你解釋 2 一下。你講你到咗場,你講咗嗰個資源嘅問題,然之後你亦都講咗,你話又係講資 3 源,“(English Spoken)"。即係換句話講,你衡量過資源,你就覺得其實 4 係足以應付當時嘅情況,咁講啱唔啱? 5 陳慶勇先生:人手上係嘅,人手上,即係做前線打火嘅同事係足夠嘅。但係點解我會將佢升 6 級為五號火警,因為我之前未到五號火警嘅時候,其實我已經建議咗當時嘅現場指 7 揮就做一個-- 每一棟都我哋搵一個(English Spoken )嚟做(English 8 Spoken),再加一個(English Spoken)做一個搜疏嘅工作,咁當啲同事已 9 經埋位嘅時候,我覺得係適合時間去提升個指揮架構。 10 另外,就係考慮到嗰啲求助嘅個案一路上升,同埋個火勢都係有持續嘅趨勢, 11 再加上當時已經開始入黑,咁喺一個視野唔清晰環境嘅情況底下,對我哋同事嘅工 12 作危險度係會增加,所以我覺得嗰個係一個適當嘅時候去提升個指揮架構。 13 杜淦堃資深大律師:喺你其實證人供詞12 段都講咗你當時你哋嗰個做法,你哋似乎就係每 14 一座派兩個高級消防區長或者消防區長去做,叫做(English Spoken)? 15 陳慶勇先生:冇錯。 16 杜淦堃資深大律師:一個就負責處理救火工作,另外一個係負責搜救工作? 17 陳慶勇先生:正確。 18 杜淦堃資深大律師:你形容呢個係叫做“(English Spoken)"? 19 陳慶勇先生:係。 20 杜淦堃資深大律師:而要用到呢一個(English Spoken),我聽你咁講,因為其實都冇 21 試過之前有情況話係由一棟大廈燃燒去到第二棟,咁大家就會有個問題,就係話其 22 實呢個做法亦都係罕見,係咪? 23 陳慶勇先生:未試過。 24 杜淦堃資深大律師:第一次嘅? 25 陳慶勇先生:係。 26 杜淦堃資深大律師:你頭先提到升五級火,嗰䭅紀錄顯示個時間係6 點22 分,所以你會話 27 開始天黑,而你覺得嗰個情況適合,個決定就係喺6 點22 分去做嘅? 28 陳慶勇先生:係。 29 陸啟康法官:可唔可以咁講呢?陳副處長,即係其實唔係一個資源嘅問題,反而可能係升唔 30 升五級火,可能喺適當嘅時候做一個所謂指揮嘅(English Spoken)嘅即係改 31 變個(English Spoken),呢個會係你考慮嘅因素多一啲? 32 陳慶勇先生:正確,因為喺現場環境,我哋當時已經有五級火嘅六倍嘅人數,就算升咗五級 33 火,喺前線同事嘅數量方面其實都唔會增加,反而係我哋提升咗指揮架構之後,咁 34 當時處長指揮室亦都配合我哋現場,就派咗一個處長級嘅同事,一個助理區長嘅同 35 事take up 咗現場(English Spoken)嘅工作,亦都派咗一個副總長職級嘅 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十八天

19 本謄本由Epiq 編製 同事去處理嗰啲嘅求助個案嘅整合。 1 杜淦堃資深大律師:或者咁樣去理解啱唔啱?因為公眾永遠有個疑問,見到咁犀利,點解唔 2 早啲升級,會唔會有多啲嘅資源或者搵多啲人嚟救火,呢個睇法就似乎係唔啱,因 3 為早啲升級唔係一個資源嘅問題,因為你哋已經超出咗平時處理四級火嘅資源,聽 4 你嘅證供似乎係一個指揮架構嘅問題,咁講正唔正確? 5 陳慶勇先生:喺今次火警度係正確。 6 杜淦堃資深大律師:亦都或者可唔可以都畀大家有一個理解,就係由四級升五級仲有啲咩嘢 7 分別呢?除咗指揮架構之外。會唔會有其他嘅唔同嘅地方? 8 陳慶勇先生:如果喺今次嚟講,除咗個指揮架構之外,應該唔會有啲咩嘢特別。 9 杜淦堃資深大律師:因為其實之前已經落咗足夠嘅資源去做,你哋嘅睇法。 10 陳慶勇先生:係。 11 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋其實睇番啲行動紀錄,其實都睇到喺大概六點半嘅時候,18:30 嘅 12 時候,喺嗰七棟大廈裏面嗰個救火工作,我哋譬如去番B10,睇5174,睇下較下 13 嘅部分,我哋咁樣理解啱唔啱呢?譬如我哋睇番呢一個時候,其實喺好多棟大廈嗰 14 個搶救嘅工作,你哋都有記錄其實前線嘅同事係如果用番似乎你哋嘅做法,係「打 15 到去第幾層樓」? 16 陳慶勇先生:係。 17 杜淦堃資深大律師:似乎喺六點半嘅時候,我哋見到宏昌就係地下至2 樓,宏泰就大概係地 18 下至到6 樓嘅,如果我哋一路睇埋下一頁嘅頂部,你就會見到相關嘅層數亦都記錄 19 咗,咁樣去理解啱唔啱? 20 陳慶勇先生:啱。 21 杜淦堃資深大律師:而我哋亦都見到之後其實一路消防員打到更高嘅樓層,我哋見到記錄咗 22 嘅,譬如喺5201 頁,我哋要睇好幾頁之後。我哋睇到19:40 嘅時候,你見到呢 23 一頁,其實一路我哋睇到已經陸續喺唔同嘅大廈,有紀錄顯示佢哋已經去到10 樓 24 以上做緊一啲嘅救援,相信呢個都係一個正確嘅理解,係咪? 25 陳慶勇先生:正確嘅,不過我哋睇番19:40 呢啲時間,其實唔代表我哋打火打到去嗰啲樓 26 層,因為搜疏隊佢哋喺今次特別嘅情況,佢哋會衝過一啲著緊火嘅樓層去拯救啲市 27 民。 28 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係換句話講,打火就係其實啲同事去控制個火勢控制到幾多樓,但係 29 今次其實有同事係冒險去到一啲未打到嘅樓層想救番啲居民出嚟,可唔可以咁講? 30 陳慶勇先生:正確。 31 陸啟康法官:因為可唔可以咁講呢?陳副處長,因為我睇過嘉利大火嗰個報告,咁係唔係其 32 實一般嚟講,消防員佢即係為咗都有自己要保障安全,其實佢哋都有一啲 33 (English Spoken)去做,一定其實就要(English Spoken),即係有一 34 個暢通嘅通道,即係打到火? 35 陳慶勇先生:係。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十八天

20 本謄本由Epiq 編製 陸啟康法官:因為你救唔到人,落唔到嚟都緊要--都唔係一個--即係都緊要,... 1 陳慶勇先生:正確,要有個退路。 2 陸啟康法官:...所以係唔係其實我即係聽番,亦都去--係唔係其實當時有啲消防員係即係 3 冒呢個險,即係其實喺未有一個所謂(English Spoken ),即係佢未有一個 4 (English Spoken)... 5 杜淦堃資深大律師:通道。 6 陸啟康法官:...通道嘅時候,佢已經曾經即係冒險上去救人? 7 陳慶勇先生:正確,我哋一般嚟講會响樓梯度,如果一有煙嘅地方其實我哋嘅同事就會已經 8 係戴頭先我哋講嗰個(English Spoken)咁樣,去用氣樽嘅氣嚟呼吸,但係今 9 次個情況係樓梯度好多已經係大煙同埋有熱力,如果我哋每一次都係喺地下度戴 10 咗,跟住先上去嘅話,我哋去唔到一啲較高嘅樓層。我所知道有同事係冒險,即係 11 喺樓梯度頂到幾耐得幾耐,跟住先至再吸嗰個(English Spoken),咁令到可 12 以去到較高樓層救到啲居民。 13 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋見到有另外一個名詞,係喺啲紀錄度睇到叫做“ (English 14 Spoken)",係唔係就係你頭先講個情況,定係有第二啲意思? 15 陳慶勇先生:有第二啲意思嘅,即係冇咁危險嘅情況,(English Spoken)只不過係我 16 哋一個快速嘅拯救,但係都會喺安全嘅地方已經戴咗我哋個(English 17 Spoken),只不過係啲BA,即係我哋入口指揮程序冇做到咁足,因為為咗要有一 18 個快速嘅拯救,咁個情況係有啲分別。 19 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋一路睇個紀錄,呢度見到你哋嘅救火行動,譬如我哋去到5215, 20 我哋就見到其實喺20:59:59 嗰度有一系列嘅紀錄,我哋見到當時就係喺宏泰閣 21 10 樓已經進行緊救火去到。跟住我哋睇番去到22:00,一路落,有一個情況我都 22 想你去解釋嘅,喺5228 頁,28,我哋見到似乎你哋有紀錄就係想喺10 樓嗰度做 23 一個(English Spoken),一個橋頭堡作為一個中轉站,但似乎去做呢個動作 24 都係有佢嘅困難,最終都係唔成功,可唔可以解一解其實嗰個行動係點樣樣? 25 陳慶勇先生:好,喺10 樓度set up 個橋頭堡嘅目的,就係好似我頭先咁講,因為我要喺 26 地下度纜我哋嗰副呼吸器,咁啲氣唔能夠供應我哋嘅同事可以去到咁高嘅樓層,我 27 哋期望可以喺10 樓度建立一個橋頭堡嘅話,我哋就可以將我哋啲工具、裝備就喺 28 10 樓嗰度做一個橋頭堡,令到我啲同事可以由10 樓開始去戴呼吸器繼續上樓,但 29 係無奈當時個情況係太惡劣,我哋都要撤退返落去。 30 杜淦堃資深大律師:所以睇番八座嘅整體情況,每一座大廈都有自己嘅指揮官,你喺第14 31 段亦都講到,其實亦都你哋覺得當時係有足夠嘅資源去處理當時嘅火勢嘅,係咪? 32 陳慶勇先生:正確。 33 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋見到,亦都想你去幫一幫我哋有關於有一啲唔係燒得咁犀利嘅大 34 廈,我哋知道宏志閣其實冇受到個火嘅同樣程度嘅波及,消防員當日係唔係有啲乜 35 嘢部署去阻止個火勢係蔓延到去宏泰閣--宏志閣?同埋係唔係或者有其他嘅因素 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十八天

21 本謄本由Epiq 編製 呢? 1 陳慶勇先生:我哋有同事喺宏志嘅天台度淋水,即係淋濕啲棚同埋網,希望可以即係阻止個 2 火勢蔓延過嚟,不過我哋再最後睇番個因素,主要相信都係因為個風勢。 3 杜淦堃資深大律師:風向嘅問題。 4 陳慶勇先生:風向唔係吹去嗰邊,咁所以宏志係冇受影響嘅,因為個火吹向另外嗰邊,其實 5 我哋即係雖然都有喺外牆度淋水,做呢啲動作,但都睇嚟都唔能夠有效咁樣阻止到 6 個火勢。 7 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想話其實你頭先提到係喺天台淋濕啲網,係咪?就宏志嗰一個。 8 陳慶勇先生:係。 9 杜淦堃資深大律師:主要都係喺天台做嘅呢個動作? 10 陳慶勇先生:係。 11 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係亦都冇用第二啲嘅裝置向棚網射水,係咪? 12 陳慶勇先生:冇。 13 杜淦堃資深大律師:我相信呢個係一個資源調配嘅問題。我哋知道你在場期間,其實消防處 14 亦都收到宏志閣啲求助個案,我哋睇番紀錄,喺當日下午4 點到第二日嘅早上,宏 15 志閣有七個求助個案,有啲求助個案其實快則五十分鐘之內已經處理咗,我睇番啲 16 紀錄有啲比較長嘅,有啲係去到紀錄裏面顯示係九個小時之後先至去獲救嘅,我相 17 信呢個同火勢同埋當時個資源有關嘅,或者你都可唔可略略同我哋解釋一下? 18 陳慶勇先生:可以嘅。咁我哋收到求助個案,其實我哋喺總部嗰度一個(English 19 Spoken)都會有一啲回撥機制,我哋會了解救助人當時個情況,所以有啲情況加 20 上現場宏志其實冇受到個火警嘅影響,所以我哋畀一個較低嘅優次去處理。 21 杜淦堃資深大律師:另外,消防處其實我哋睇番紀錄,喺16:18 都接咗一個宏仁閣1704 22 嘅求助個案,宏仁亦都係我哋見到最左面,受影響同埋波及比較少嘅一棟樓宇,雖 23 然有一個光井都係著咗火,有關嘅求助個案都係16:18 收到,其實係22:00 先救 24 出當時嗰一名男子。宏仁閣呢個個案我哋點解想你都解釋一下畀大家聽,因為宏仁 25 閣我哋從閉路電視睇到,其實去到18:20 宏仁閣個大堂都係仲可以自由出入,未 26 受到嗰個火勢影響,就呢個情況你有冇嘢解釋畀大家聽當時? 27 陳慶勇先生:當時都係個負責該棟樓宇指揮嘅同事去判斷,同埋當時雖然話地下係冇受影 28 響,咁中間啲樓層要睇番當時嘅情況。 29 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白。至於決定邊個個案優先去處理,呢個應該會唔會係負責嗰一棟大 30 廈嗰個(English Spoken)去決定? 31 陳慶勇先生:正確,因為佢都有睇番嗰座大廈嗰個實際情況係能唔能夠做得到。 32 杜淦堃資深大律師:換句話講,我相信你嘅答案可能都會同一樣,我哋睇到宏建閣嗰個情 33 況,喺宏建閣嗰個情況,宏建閣其實係好幸運,就係中間冇受影響嗰一棟,我哋相 34 信因為個風勢嘅問題,所以就佢冇受到個影響。裏面都有啲求助個案,快則係二十 35 分鐘就到,最耐係九小時,咁樣講啱唔啱?呢個都係當時個(English 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十八天

22 本謄本由Epiq 編製 Spoken)嘅決定,所以嗰個優次或者幾快、幾慢去處理,都係應該係佢去決定? 1 陳慶勇先生:正確,同埋都要睇當時即係樓梯嘅焗煙嘅程度同埋啲火勢。 2 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋見到今次其實救火其中一個最大嘅困難,你頭先都有略略提到,就 3 係其實現場嘅逃生通道好快畀上面跌落嚟嘅燃燒物,棚架、棚網或者其他嘅物品其 4 實都係跌咗落嚟喺前面著火,阻礙你哋嘅同事進入大廈救火,即係呢個造成相當大 5 嘅危險。你喺第19 段提到,你其實考慮過動用一個叫做災難應變救援隊 6 (English Spoken)去清理當時地下嘅雜物,但係後來因為風險太高,你都係 7 冇咁做到,或者你呢個都可以解釋畀大家聽當時個考慮,同埋其實呢個救援隊通常 8 係點樣去出勤?佢個工作範圍係點? 9 陳慶勇先生:呢隊災難應變及拯救隊其實係以往我哋去海外做一啲地震嘅隊伍,咁考慮到當 10 時好多棚架砸晒落嚟,呢隊同事佢哋有一啲較為重型啲嘅工具可以清理到現場出入 11 口嗰啲燃燒緊嘅棚架雜物咁樣,但係再睇番當時嘅情況係上面都不斷有一啲燃燒嘅 12 竹棚雜物路跌緊落嚟,就算呢隊同事嚟到,其實佢哋要清理現場個風險其實都好大 13 嘅,所以考慮到呢一點,我就冇要求調派佢哋嚟。 14 杜淦堃資深大律師:另外,你亦都有解釋,坊間亦都有疑問,因為過咗呢件事之後,當然有 15 好多人會去喺公開嘅資料入面去研究你哋唔同嘅應對級別。有人亦都問過有冇考慮 16 過將火警從五級火升去一個災難級別(English Spoken),你亦都解釋咗當時 17 點解冇咁做,或者用呢個機會都向大家解釋一下。 18 陳慶勇先生:好,正如我嘅證人供詞裏面提到,現場我哋係有足夠嘅人手,而喺災難級別其 19 實一般嚟講係畀一啲全港性或者有多宗唔同嘅事故,我哋先至會用到災難級嘅。咁 20 喺災難級情況底下,我哋係應該即係所有部門可以用嘅資源都已經用晒,甚至要用 21 到解放軍等等嘅資源嚟幫手。但係今次個火警裏面,我哋雖然已經有好多同事喺現 22 場,最多嘅時間有接近一千人,但係我哋自己部門其實都仲有一啲資源,亦都未去 23 到話有唔同地方,全港都受影響嘅情況出現。 24 杜淦堃資深大律師:你亦都提過,我諗你喺早期已經意識到其實呢一場火唔會好快可以撲 25 滅,工作係漫長,所以你都有其他嘅措施,例如你提到,你哋會睇下有冇足夠嘅輕 26 型手提泵,後來都用咗一啲無人機去做火勢嘅偵察,或者搵咗一啲大巴運送消防員 27 嘅同事去接替一啲要離開現場嘅人。我想你亦都講一講就呢一方面,就係今次你喺 28 接手咗之後,似乎因為火警嗰個規模,你都要面對困難,都考慮咗用呢呢啲額外措 29 施嘅,有冇其他嘢係今次先用咗,你都想話畀公眾聽嘅? 30 陳慶勇先生:係,一般嚟講,火警唔會咁長時間,我哋啲(English Spoken),即係我 31 哋頭先講到一啲區長或者高級區長都未必需要一個接更嘅動作,但係因為今次考慮 32 到個火警係好長時間,所以我哋喺中段都已經通知處長指揮室去安排一啲其他嘅區 33 長或者高級區長去接更。同埋今次因為我哋用到好多呢個職級嘅同事,有啲我哋本 34 身唔係行動組,一啲防火組同事都要預早佢哋去安排。另外,我哋處長級嘅同事同 35 樣地都係需要呢啲咁嘅安排。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十八天

23 本謄本由Epiq 編製 再者,就係平時我哋一更接更嘅時候可能係會--前線啲同事講,就其他唔同嘅 1 局嚟到就接手,然之後就放現場嗰啲走。今次喺我哋朝頭早交更嘅時候,我哋因為 2 想個現場繼續有我哋資源喺度,所以我哋就安排咗一啲旅遊巴去接一啲suppose 3 應該9 點鐘返工嘅同事去到現場,我哋亦都提早咗通知佢哋嗰日要早兩小時--早個 4 半小時要返工就報到咁樣,呢啲都係一啲以往冇嘅安排嚟嘅。 5 杜淦堃資深大律師:你嗰日都通宵工作,你係去擔任指揮官去到第二日,即係27 號嘅 6 09:35,當時你就將指揮嘅任務交畀另一位副處長黃嘉榮先生,係咪? 7 陳慶勇先生:係。 8 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係你喺當晚9 點鐘就再次成為現場嘅指揮官? 9 陳慶勇先生:正確。 10 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋見到及後個火勢受控制嘅一啲紀錄,為咗完整紀錄,我都想問一問 11 你,我哋見到喺27 號,即係之後嗰晚嘅21:31,你哋界定就係個火勢係已經被包 12 圍(English Spoken)? 13 陳慶勇先生:係。 14 杜淦堃資深大律師:而去到28 號凌晨03:15,你哋就將個火警界定為已受控(English 15 Spoken)。跟住到28 號嘅10:18,當時你就傳達咗一個stop 嘅資訊,嗰個就 16 係停止調派? 17 陳慶勇先生:係。 18 杜淦堃資深大律師:為咗讓大家知道呢啲名詞,你哋係點樣去決定個火警已經係叫做 19 (English Spoken)(被包圍)或者(English Spoken),可唔可以解一 20 解? 21 陳慶勇先生:可以。“(English Spoken)"嘅意思,即係話我哋喺現場判斷火警唔會 22 再蔓延去其他嘅地方,咁喺今次嘅情況,我哋當時係判斷個火警唔會再蔓延去一啲 23 本身都未受波及嘅單位,所以我哋就發出一個咁嘅資訊,咁亦都令到處長指揮室會 24 知道其實現場個環境嘅情況係點。(English Spoken)就係已經燒緊嗰啲單位 25 其實我哋都已經有效控制咗,所以我哋就會發出呢個(English Spoken)呢一 26 個資訊。最後,喺18:10 嘅時候,其實個stop,即係停止動員資訊,即係話現場 27 已經係嚟咗嘅資源已經足夠處理現場嘅剩餘嘅狀況,咁唔需要再調派其他嘅人手。 28 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋知道喺停止調派之後,消防處其實當時都仲係有差唔多六百三十名 29 消防員在場處理緊剩餘嘅任務,嗰個工作亦都可唔可以同我哋解釋一下包括啲咩嘢 30 呢? 31 陳慶勇先生:當時我哋處理係幾樣嘢,就一,就係我哋要繼續向一啲受災嘅單位淋水,因為 32 防止佢會死灰復燃。第二,就係我哋有啲救護嘅同事都會喺現場,我哋會繼續喺現 33 場度去睇睇嗰啲死者嘅運送,同埋我哋消防嘅同事亦都會上樓去再做一個徹底嘅搜 34 索,確保即係我哋已經係可以(English Spoken)到所有嘅罹難嘅居民。 35 杜淦堃資深大律師:你喺供詞裏面都提到其實動用咗嘅資源,或者等好讓大家有一個紀錄, 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十八天

24 本謄本由Epiq 編製 我哋都大家去睇一睇,等我同你確認。喺整個行動裏面你哋動用咗三百九十一架次 1 嘅消防車,救護車就一百五十架次,同埋一百八十五架次,同埋總共消防救護員有 2 二千三百一十一人次嘅,呢個應該都係你見過有史以來最大規模嘅出勤紀錄,係 3 咪? 4 陳慶勇先生:正確。 5 杜淦堃資深大律師:當中我哋知道不幸有十二位消防員受傷,一位不治,而行動時間超過四 6 十小時,亦都係你見過最長嘅? 7 陳慶勇先生:有啲情況會耐啲,譬如16 年嘅迷你倉。 8 杜淦堃資深大律師:嗰次就仲耐過... 9 陳慶勇先生:嗰次仲耐啲嘅。 10 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋跟住會去探討一啲其他議題,但係當然都係同當日嗰個情況有關, 11 所以可能呢個係一個適當嘅時間。 12 陸啟康法官:咁我哋押後十五分鐘。 13

14 11 時28 分聆訊押後 15 11 時43 分聆訊恢復 16

17 杜淦堃資深大律師:陳先生,跟住落嚟我都想你解釋一下畀大家聽一個好多人問嘅議題,就 18 係嗰個疏散嘅問題。因為如果我哋睇番我哋之前顯示過八棟,每一棟光井起火嘅時 19 間。我哋之前亦都同你哋嘅同事討論過,一般畀市民嘅意見,如果聽到火警鐘,消 20 防處嘅同事收到電話會同佢哋講應該帶逃生三寶,打開屋企門睇下有冇煙,冇煙就 21 去最近嘅樓梯落樓,如果有煙呢,就可能要留番喺自己個單位,呢個係平時嘅做法 22 嚟嘅,相信你都會同意。 23 陳慶勇先生:正確。 24 杜淦堃資深大律師:今次有個特別嘅情況,而我哋都明白你頭先都確認咗係個史無前例嘅情 25 況,因為你有多棟大廈,而似乎好早期已經見到呢,因為佢進行緊維修,個火勢好 26 快由一棟去到第二棟,另外一個困難就係你頭先都講咗,冇咗個火警鐘。所以咁講 27 會唔會正確呢?其實你去到現場了解咗,你見到其實疏散一個最大嘅困難就係根本 28 上平時用嚟話畀居民知有火警最有效嗰個裝置冇咗,所以要提醒居民有火警,呢個 29 有個好大嘅難度,咁講啱唔啱? 30 陳慶勇先生:正確。 31 杜淦堃資深大律師:而似乎喺當時有嘅資源裏面,其實冇一個其他嘅工具係可以好似一個火 32 警鐘咁有效咁樣話到畀每一層樓嘅居民聽,而家係有火警,佢哋應該係逃走或者留 33 意,咁講啱唔啱? 34 陳慶勇先生:正確。 35 杜淦堃資深大律師:喺呢個例子度,我哋見到好多--個發展其實都係千鈞一髮,即係我哋而 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十八天

25 本謄本由Epiq 編製 家事後睇番可能會好多意見,但係當時個情況可能唔同。但係坊間有一個講法,我 1 都想個機會你去解一解釋嘅。我哋見到其實有關嘅證據顯示,其實高級消防隊長許 2 健安佢嘅證供提到到14:50 到場,15:00 佢已經開始見到個火勢係燒到去宏泰 3 閣,當然我哋呢度顯示就係個光井著火,但係可能有第二啲物件已經飄咗過去。我 4 哋從閉路電視睇到,其實宏泰閣個正門喺15:20,其實喺即係二十分鐘之後大概先 5 至係淪陷嘅,即係先至係走唔到嘅。有居民會覺得,如果當時已經見到火勢蔓延去 6 到宏泰,而有廿分鐘走到,當時有冇可能早啲疏散宏泰閣嘅居民,呢一個你可唔可 7 以幫到我哋去解一解釋? 8 陳慶勇先生:可以嘅。因為我哋見到,其實頭先你話係一個有二十分鐘時間先至封咗出口, 9 但係呢個係事後睇番嘅。 10 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白。 11 陳慶勇先生:因為當時係不斷已經有棚架、有啲竹枝係燒著緊嘅,一路跌落嚟,所以要確保 12 居民有一條生路可以走到出嚟,我哋首先就要即係喺出入口嗰度打開咗一條生路 13 先。因為我哋都見到其實有啲居民都已經陸續走緊落嚟。咁如果我哋唔打開條生 14 路,其實就可能連較早走到出嚟嗰啲都未必走得到。 15 杜淦堃資深大律師:更正番頭先可能係嗰個紀錄嘅錯誤,其實許高級消防隊長係14:56 到 16 場,唔係14:50 嘅,所以其實喺幾分鐘之後佢見到。點都好,你頭先解釋嘅情況 17 就係,雖然嗰個正門喺15:20 先至淪陷,但係其實之前已經跌緊一啲危險品落 18 嚟。 19 陳慶勇先生:係。 20 杜淦堃資深大律師:所以呢個都對你頭先所講個疏散造成一個困難,係咪? 21 陳慶勇先生:係,正確。 22 杜淦堃資深大律師:其實當時15:20 嗰陣可唔可以咁講呢?綜合琴日畀嘅證供,我哋見到 23 15:20 嗰陣已經啟動咗你哋叫做(English Spoken),亦都有成立咗處長指揮 24 室,所以當時15:20 你哋知道唔係一般嘅火警,今次係一件非常大嘅事故? 25 陳慶勇先生:正確。 26 杜淦堃資深大律師:居民亦都有懷疑過,佢哋明白其實宏昌、宏泰其實真係好早段已經畀火 27 攻陷咗,但係其他嘅--你哋見到其他嘅大廈呢,其實真係有較長嘅時間可以疏散居 28 住嘅居民,當然,我哋亦都見到嗰個其他大廈嘅傷者同死者的確係比較少好多嘅, 29 但係亦都有個疑問,因為較後期波及嘅五棟大廈,你見到係大約一個鐘頭,去到甚 30 至乎三個鐘頭之後先被波及,而嗰五棟,嗰五座裏面其實都係有死傷嘅,即係今次 31 嘅火警都造成一啲人命嘅傷亡,宏仁有一名傷者,宏道有兩名死者,有其他傷者, 32 宏新都有兩名死者,而宏盛有一名七十七歲嘅死者。公眾會問,其實其他嗰幾棟係 33 咪應該有足夠嘅時間疏散裏面嘅居民,去確保今次唔會喺另外嗰幾棟裏面有傷亡, 34 你都可唔可以解一解,其實你哋見到嘅情況係點? 35 陳慶勇先生:可以,睇番當時其實我哋有兩個選項,即係考慮到當時我哋喺現場嘅人手同埋 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十八天

26 本謄本由Epiq 編製 嗰個火勢,我哋有兩個選項,一,我哋將資源集中喺壓止個火勢,喺宏昌、宏泰嗰 1 度射水。正如我之前有講過喇,即係警察亦都已經喺三點半嘅時間到咗場,咁佢依 2 照一向嘅默契佢會幫我哋疏散一啲附近嘅居民,咁呢個係第一個選項。第二個選 3 項,就係我哋抽調啲人手去後面宏建、宏新、宏道、宏仁或者宏盛去疏散啲居民, 4 但係咁嘅情況底下個火勢可能會比起而家更加猛烈、更加快咁樣去蔓延過去其他嗰 5 幾座大廈度。我哋當時採取咗我講嘅第一個選項,就是去壓止個火勢,為啲居民爭 6 取時間可以逃生。睇番正如剛才杜狀所講,睇番啲傷亡嘅數字,我事後檢討,我會 7 覺得呢個都係一個可以做嘅方案。 8 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白,但係你頭先咁樣講可能大家就會有另外一個疑問,因為你講嘅就 9 係話你集中咗資源同人手去撲救最嚴重嗰兩棟,大家就會問咁係咪一個資源同人手 10 嘅問題呢?因為如果你睇番,我哋而家見到呢一個情況,我哋可以睇到喺4 點鐘之 11 前,當然頭嗰兩棟就已經燒得好厲害,另外嗰幾棟其實係有相當長嘅時間係未波及 12 嘅,你頭先嘅解釋似乎就話畀我哋知你哋做咗一個決定,個決定睇番當時嘅資源嘅 13 人手,今日我哋大家或者你哋嘅立場喇,或者咁講,都會覺得係正確嘅,但係呢一 14 個引申嘅問題就係如果係咁,唔係應該用多啲資源同埋人手去疏散另外幾棟咩嘢? 15 因為你今朝都講,其實你哋覺得資源同人手係夠㗎嘛? 16 陳慶勇先生:係,呢度都想同大家講番,就係當時我哋係已經有二百六十幾位即係前線嘅同 17 事調派咗去現場,但係大家要明白調派咗去現場,佢哋唔能夠話即時喺現場出現 18 嘅,當時我哋當時現場人手大概係有一百人左右。係,如果要壓止個火勢,要阻止 19 咁大型嘅火警去蔓延嘅話,咁我哋要有一個取捨。 20 杜淦堃資深大律師:我諗咁--亦都你頭先所講,因為疏散嘅工作,可能都係警方嗰方面有協 21 助。大家亦都會有一個疑問,如果係咁嘅話,人手方面你要取捨,但係疏散嘅工作 22 亦都未必一定係要消防嘅同事去做,係咪應該可以有更多警力去疏散另外未波及嗰 23 幾棟呢?因為如果我哋睇番呢個時間嘅話,從三點半到四點半,其實一個鐘頭,點 24 解唔可以全面疏散宏新同宏道,即係B 同C 座呢?大家可能會有個咁嘅疑問,或者 25 你可唔可以都幫一幫我哋? 26 陳慶勇先生:我相信--我對警方嘅調派唔係咁清楚。但係我相信如果套用番喺我哋部門度, 27 其實調派人手去現場都需要時間嘅,咁我相信呢個係一個原因。 28 杜淦堃資深大律師:如果咁講會唔會唔公道呀?如果係,換句話講,其實未能夠早啲去疏散 29 另外嗰幾棟,令到有一啲嘅傷亡減低,可能係當時在場嗰個資源同埋人手嘅問題? 30 呢個唔係一個批評,但係當時似乎去到極限就係咁樣樣? 31 陳慶勇先生:正如我頭先所講,因為調派咗嘅人手都唔能夠即時喺現場出現,所以考慮番現 32 場嘅人手,當時我哋就係做咗一個選擇就係去壓止個火勢。因為我哋唔知道另一個 33 選項會點,如果我哋派啲人去另外嗰幾座做疏散,而唔去壓止個火勢嘅話,有可能 34 更加多後面嗰幾座嘅居民,未必能夠--即係個火勢一蔓延到去嗰邊,大家可以想像 35 到就係宏昌、宏泰個情況,啲棚架、燒著嘅嘢一路跌落去,封咗個出入口,可能更 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十八天

27 本謄本由Epiq 編製 加多嘅居民唔能夠走到出嚟,甚至我哋上樓去做疏散嘅同事都遇到好大嘅危險。 1 陸啟康法官:好似何偉豪消防員咁樣樣,佢上到去已經係一個好惡劣嘅情況。 2 陳慶勇先生:係。 3 杜淦堃資深大律師:有一個關連嘅問題亦都有人問過嘅,呢個就係同火警升級有關,同埋幾 4 時升級。我相信你哋都了解過呢個問題,你之前有同事亦都講過。第一呢,就係你 5 嘅同事提過火警升級係應該一級一級咁升,因為呢個牽涉一個(English 6 Spoken)嘅問題,流程嘅問題,呢個相信係一個正確嘅講法,係咪?即係唔會由 7 二級跳去四級火,唔會咁,係咪? 8 陳慶勇先生:首先撇除咗二級火先喇,因為二級火係--其實係一個我哋叫做(English 9 Spoken)嚟嘅啫,同一級火其實係--一級火係一般嘅火警,二級火係一啲特定有 10 譬如港鐵站、醫院等等嘅動員喇。所以由一級火警一升就係升三號火警㗎嘞。但係 11 我哋指引其實冇話過唔可以由一號火警升去四號火警嘅。因為我哋個指引就係當一 12 號火警嘅資源唔能夠有效咁處理嘅時候,我哋就應該升去三號火警,當三號火警唔 13 能夠有效咁處理嘅時呢,我哋就升去四號火警。當升咗級之後呢,咁其實會有一啲 14 特定既定嘅動員會調派到去現場嘅,現場嘅主管就唔需要逐架車,逐架車咁叫囉。 15 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋完全明白當時初初到現場嘅同事嗰個困難,但係主席亦都之前同你 16 嘅同事探討過,其實喺大維修工程入面,見到呢八座都畀棚網同竹棚包圍,其實喺 17 呢個情況,嗰個地盤嗰個危險性,嗰個風險應該係好高嘅,我相信呢個你都會同 18 意,係咪? 19 陳慶勇先生:同意。 20 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋雖然未聽專家證人嘅證供,但我相信你哋都可以協助到我哋,現時 21 我哋樓宇嘅防火設計好多都係針對一啲內部嘅火警嘅,即係譬如好多時係廚房著 22 火,啲單位裏面,有人食煙喺單位裏面引起嘅火警,你哋個做法或者啲設計呢,其 23 實有一個講法,就係叫做“(English Spoken)”,即係隔開佢,即係將火警 24 控制,呢一個做法喺我哋而家呢個火警就似乎就唔係好適用,因為我哋嘅特別之 25 處,呢個火警係由大廈嘅外面產生,係火勢攻番入大廈裏面嘅,我相信呢個講法係 26 正確嘅,係咪? 27 陳慶勇先生:正確。 28 杜淦堃資深大律師:你頭先都講過嘞,所以大廈外牆我哋嘅挑戰就係又似乎係有大量嘅燃燒 29 物,其實喺14:57 嘅時候,即係頭先講到高級消防隊長許健安佢去到現場,根據 30 佢而家嘅報告,佢見到嗰個火勢其實喺個棚架度已經有8 米乘30 米,其實係一個 31 幾大嘅--一個唔細嘅火勢嚟嘅已經,我見到你扱頭,我相信你同意。 32 陳慶勇先生:同意,係。 33 杜淦堃資深大律師:你或者都可以睇番同一頁,我哋見到14:55 嗰張可能冇咁清楚,但係 34 到14:58 呢,我哋之前都睇過一啲片,你哋消防處其實都有提供過畀我哋,其實 35 第一次睇大家都好震驚,因為嗰個火燒得好快同好大,由14:58 到15:00,你見 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十八天

28 本謄本由Epiq 編製 到兩分鐘,其實係好犀利嘅已經。大家有一個疑問,就係見到個咁嘅情況,而加上 1 你頭先講其實係有一個資源嘅考慮,其實係咪應該早啲一見到個咁嘅情況已經去升 2 到一個高啲嘅級別,點解要問呢?因為聽你頭先咁講,如果我哋喺三點半到四點半 3 中間有多啲資源在場嘅話,可能嗰個會協助到個疏散嘅工作嘅,對於呢個講法你有 4 冇啲咩嘢意見或者有冇啲咩嘢回應可以畀到我哋? 5 陳慶勇先生:首先,我哋只係事後睇番件事喇。 6 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白。 7 陳慶勇先生:當時同事嘅決定,如果見到好似14:59 呢個情況,即係個火突然間蔓延上去 8 嘅話呢,其實佢升三號火警,其實都係一個合適嘅做法嚟嘅。因為我哋冇預計個火 9 會咁樣,即係正如我哋之前所講,呢個係一個史無前例囉,即係我哋都冇見過一個 10 火警會咁樣打橫蔓延得咁快嘅。所以當時同事升三號火警,但係當個火因為有啲風 11 勢吹咗啲雜物、燒著咗嘅棚架蔓延咗去隔籬嘅時候呢,我哋都隨即都升四號火警去 12 處理。 13 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係四號火警,其實升四號火警都係及後好一段時間喇。 14 陳慶勇先生:係。 15 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,即係換句話講,我明白我哋事後睇番可能係有啲要求過高,而家你 16 睇番,你覺得係咪應該較早嘅時間升四號火警?會唔會係一個更加合適嘅做法? 17 陳慶勇先生:如果事後睇番可能早啲當然會有啲幫助喇,係。 18 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白,呢個可能係將來你哋去考慮升每一級火嘅指引或者見到啲特別嘅 19 情況,可以探討同考慮嘅地方,咁講啱唔啱? 20 陳慶勇先生:都正確嘅。 21 杜淦堃資深大律師:另外,你頭先都提過,一號同二號火警,其實嗰個係一個你哋叫做 22 (English Spoken ),即係你去到,其實有啲特定嘅情況去到已經係二級㗎 23 嘞。你頭先提到有啲譬如係有幾--其實你哋指引裏面有幾個種類嘅,第一個種類就 24 係一啲酒店或者醫院發生嘅火警喇。 25 陳慶勇先生:係。 26 杜淦堃資深大律師:第二係個種類就係在場有啲嘅危險品嘅火警,第三個種類就係嗰個供水 27 有限制(English Spoken),呢個相信係一個正確嘅講法,係咪? 28 陳慶勇先生:正確。 29 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋見到做緊大維修工程嘅呢啲單位,其實我哋知道譬如宏福苑為例, 30 住嘅人應該唔會少過一間酒店,我哋見到佢哋亦都畀大量嘅易燃物包住,而第三就 31 係似乎亦都有啲火警系統失效嘅。喺呢個情況之下,吸收咗呢一次經驗,其實呢一 32 類做緊大型維修嘅地盤,係咪其實都可以考慮一去到已經係一個二級火警嘅做法 33 呢? 34 陳慶勇先生:因為其實大型維修,咁佢唔係一個即係永久嘅安排,係一啲臨時嘅安排,所以 35 我哋就住呢啲大型維修嘅樓宇呢,我哋唔會將佢變成一個二級動員嘅模式,但係我 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十八天

29 本謄本由Epiq 編製 哋會做一啲應急嘅預案,我哋同樣地其實都會加咗啲車嘅,加咗車,咁其實可以 1 serve 到同樣嘅purpose 嘅,不過唔係一個即係恆常嘅安排,只係一個臨時嘅安 2 排,一個應急預案咁樣,係。 3 杜淦堃資深大律師:我諗可以值得考慮嘅地方就係,當然,你每個唔同嘅工地做維修你都可 4 以有啲唔同嘅預案。但係如果我哋考慮到其實今次見到大維修個風險明顯地高過一 5 般嘅樓宇,你覺得其實呢個去考慮喺大型維修嘅樓宇嗰度,一去到就二級火,呢個 6 係咪一個可以考慮嘅做法呢? 7 陳慶勇先生:其實用應急預案嘅模式個彈性係更加大,因為當區消防嘅同事佢可以就住呢一 8 個屋苑,或者呢啲有做緊大型維修工程嘅樓宇呢,佢可以做一啲評估,究竟應該加 9 幾多車先至可以處理到,咁呢個會比起硬性咁樣變成一個二級嘅動員嘅話,嗰個靈 10 活性更大,同埋更加適合嗰一個處所。 11 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋提到幾時疏散,提到今次嗰個困難就係點通知啲居民,我哋見到今 12 次嗰個困難除咗冇火警鐘之外,其實你哋喺幾早嘅階段都知道,其實嗰個走火樓梯 13 係攻陷咗嘅,而似乎而家睇番呢,個問題係嗰啲生口。我相信你都會同意其實嗰啲 14 生口嘅存在令到今次你同事去救火個危險性係高咗嘅? 15 陳慶勇先生:正確。 16 杜淦堃資深大律師:另外一個問題亦都係,喺當時除咗火警鐘失效,生口被攻陷咗,亦都係 17 冇辦法當時,你正如頭先所講,去啟動番嗰啲消防鐘,或者用其他嘅方法去通知啲 18 居民嘅。咁喺聽證會度都有人提過係話,其實你哋嘅警車--嗰個你哋嘅消防車係有 19 鳴笛嘅,不過就唔想影響到當時嘅通訊,所以就冇繼續去保持嗰個警號。我想問 20 下,呢個講法我相信你同意嘅,係咪? 21 陳慶勇先生:同意。 22 杜淦堃資深大律師:當時係有冇考慮過,仲有冇其他方法去通知居民? 23 陳慶勇先生:當時我哋其實個資源都係集中喺為居民打開生路嗰方面,咁至於通知居民方 24 面,其實我哋--正如我之前有講過,我哋其實有同事去過有三座度,嘗試打警鐘, 25 但係冇效,咁我哋就要有一個取捨,真係,係。如果再去用其他方法嘅話,其實就- 26 -即係個資源嘅分配問題,係。 27 杜淦堃資深大律師:好多人都問過,你亦都喺你嘅證人供詞提過,我哋知道當日其實冇用到 28 政府嗰個緊急警示系統,個(English Spoken ),你喺證人供詞28 段都提 29 到,當時其實有考慮,但係最後決定冇使用嘅。 30 如果我哋睇番你 28 段,其實你都幾詳盡咁去解釋咗個當時考慮, 31 WS8/1933 ,你個講法就係,你首先講咗,呢一個系統係一個叫做(English 32 Spoken ),個做法似乎就係,我諗大家都仲記得其實喺呢個(English 33 Spoken )嘅時候,大家係收過一個-- 好多人都收過一個呢個(English 34 Spoken)嘅,可能你都同我一樣,嗰日有少少嚇嚫,因為似乎佢係好大聲嘅,會 35 令到你個電話,收嗰個(English Spoken)。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十八天

30 本謄本由Epiq 編製 陳慶勇先生:係。 1 杜淦堃資深大律師:當日我記得嗰個信號係關於同醫院有關嘅。 2 陳慶勇先生:係。 3 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢度就咁講嘅,似乎就係話,當時個考慮就係有關嘅政策就係要一個 4 (English Spoken ),即係有一個廣泛地區性嘅,好似畀咗啲例子就係 5 (English Spoken ),有啲大型嘅公共設施係失效,(English 6 Spoken ),有啲大型嘅暴動,(English Spoken ),炸彈嘅問題, 7 (English Spoken),即係唔係一啲局限某個地區嘅問題。 8 我唔向你去詢問呢個政策嘅邏輯,因為其實個邏輯好似都係有啲矛盾嘅,你 9 (English Spoken)唔係一定--都應該係(English Spoken)㗎嘛,除非 10 你全香港有好多炸彈啫,你明白,係咪? 11 陳慶勇先生:明白。 12 杜淦堃資深大律師:當時你哋就話,你哋覺得呢個系統唔適合當時去運用嘅,因為你哋覺得 13 你哋就要有一個(English Spoken),即係一對一要教佢哋點做,而唔係一個 14 (English Spoken),唔係向公眾發放一個信息,而當時另外一個擔心嘅地方 15 就係嗰個火勢嘅發展。呢個係你睇番當時其實考慮過呢啲因素,係咪? 16 陳慶勇先生:係。我補充下。 17 杜淦堃資深大律師:好。 18 陳慶勇先生:因為我哋如果正常聽到火警鐘嘅話,一般我哋接受咗一向由細到大,或者由消 19 防處嘅一啲宣傳教育,我哋聽到火警鐘響,我哋應該儘量逃生,如果遇到有煙喺樓 20 梯等等情況,我哋返番去單位度就封好啲門,等消防員嚟救。 21 但係一個緊急警示系統嘅話,其實我哋冇任何一啲咁樣嘅類似嘅教育工作做 22 過,咁貿貿然用呢一個系統嘅話,咁有機會居民係一見到嘅時候,「咦,我係咪一 23 定要走?」咁如果喺嗰啲情況,啲居民走咗出嚟嘅話,可能為佢帶嚟更大嘅危險。 24 再加上,喺個系統未提升之前,其實要大概一個鐘頭先至可以出得到嘅,咁對 25 我哋當時嘅情況其實幫助不大。 26 杜淦堃資深大律師:兩方面嘅跟進嘅問題,第一,你話因為冇個教育,可能你唔知道啲居民 27 咩嘢反映。但係呢個系統其中一樣做到火警鐘做唔到嘅嘢就係,大家會去睇下個電 28 話嗰度收到個咩嘢嘅訊息㗎嘛,如果係咁,有關嘅指示係咪可以其實更有效咁話到 29 畀啲居民聽?我明白呢個係事後睇番,但係你--相信你會明白我條問題嗰個邏輯, 30 係咪? 31 陳慶勇先生:明白。但係我哋事前冇任何預備過呢啲咁嘅訊息究竟應該點樣通知,即係啲訊 32 息嘅內容等等,咁都所以當時冇用到。 33 杜淦堃資深大律師:第二個考慮嘅就係話,其實係要一小時,可唔可以咁講?一小時係相關 34 程序裏面走程序要一小時,係咪?就唔係技術上一小時至可以啟動? 35 陳慶勇先生:呢個--個--點解要用一小時,我就唔係太過清楚,所以我哋當時都用咗我哋一 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十八天

31 本謄本由Epiq 編製 個回撥嘅機制去同啲居民溝通。 1 杜淦堃資深大律師:回撥--可唔可以咁講?其實我哋好多人會咁諗嘅,其實呢個--因為當時 2 大家知道一個最大嘅挑戰就係火警鐘失效,而你都同意今次喺呢個事件裏面,剩番 3 可以用嚟通知居民嘅工具,其實係冇嘅。考慮過真係通知到大廈裏面嘅人,當時佢 4 哋啲窗被封晒,話畀佢哋知有個火警,其實可能個選項都係剩番呢一個工具,咁講 5 合唔合理? 6 陳慶勇先生:正確。 7 杜淦堃資深大律師:所以喺呢個情況底下,其實呢個同你哋用個回撥機制係冇抵觸嘅,可唔 8 可以咁諗?因為你--如果有火警鐘,你都會有個回撥機制㗎喇,咁樣去諗啱唔啱? 9 陳慶勇先生:正確。 10 杜淦堃資深大律師:我亦都要對你非常公道,我哋有時批評政府部門唔跟程序,佢哋可能會 11 有佢哋嘅解釋或者呢樣係唔啱嘅嘢。當政府部門跟程序嘅時候,我哋去批評佢,可 12 能呢個係比較苛刻。但係我哋今次處理呢個事件,其實真係一個前所未有嘅事件, 13 而當時好明顯地,有一樣好重要嘅工作,就係話畀大廈裏面嘅人知有火警,有呢個 14 工具,因為程序嘅問題唔用,睇番轉頭會唔會可以話係一個唔係好明智嘅決定? 15 陳慶勇先生:呢個唔單只係程序嘅問題,仲更加重要係我剛才所提出嘅就係,我哋唔知居民 16 收到之後會有啲咩嘢反應。即係如果貿貿然,喺咁嘅環境,大家都見到嗰啲受波及 17 嘅大廈嗰個情況,貿貿然走出嚟嘅話,可能比起佢留喺單位裏面更加危險,我哋預 18 計唔到居民嘅反應會係點。 19 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係如果--或者我--我明白你嘅立場,或者我再咁同你探討多最後一 20 次,其實最緊要當時都係畀居民知道宏福苑有火警,而你同意嘅就係,如果有火警 21 鐘,佢哋會知道有火警,但係可能每個人嘅反應都唔同,啱唔啱? 22 陳慶勇先生:如果火警鐘嘅話,我有信心啲居民會知道點做。 23 杜淦堃資深大律師:而你頭先講嘅做法就係,你哋一路嘅教育,如果走到就走,走唔到就留 24 低喺單位度,係咪? 25 陳慶勇先生:係。 26 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢個信息好簡單,其實?而亦都可以話到畀當時嘅人聽? 27 陳慶勇先生:呢個信息雖然簡單,但係喺一個危急嘅情況,係咪每個人都可以做得到?其實 28 唔係嘅,如果唔係我哋都唔需要用咁多嘅資源去做一啲公眾教育。 29 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白。事後我哋去睇,我哋知道其實政府都有考慮提升呢個緊急警示嘅 30 系統嘅,等政府各個部門都可以考慮去使用。而家嗰個做法我哋從公共資料睇--即 31 係公開嘅資料睇到,係分區咁去可以發出啲信息,係咪? 32 陳慶勇先生:係,正確。 33 杜淦堃資深大律師:係。而我諗你嘅答案會係,如果你哋提升呢個系統,將來用嘅都會有啲 34 教育話畀佢哋知係咩嘢事? 35 陳慶勇先生:正確。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十八天

32 本謄本由Epiq 編製 杜淦堃資深大律師:我諗一個可能大家會質疑嘅就係,因為你個系統其實係唔係淨係火警 1 用,你可能唔同嘅災難都會用,所以個系統嘅一個功用就係唔只話畀人知有事,仲 2 可以話畀人哋知乜嘢事,同埋甚至乎話畀人哋知點做? 3 陳慶勇先生:所以如果將來要用呢一個系統嘅話,我哋對於嗰個內容,我哋都要有啲研究, 4 同埋要做番相對嘅公眾教育。 5 陸啟康法官:即係我諗今次都話畀我哋聽,其實好多嘢係諗唔到會咁發生,所以都諗唔到用 6 啲--即係唔會話事前已經去預備點樣計劃用呢個系統達到咩嘢嘅目的,為咗呢個咁 7 嘅火災,可唔可以咁講? 8 陳慶勇先生:正確,正確。 9 陸啟康法官:係,即係如果係--如果一早知就唔會咁,即係好老實講。即係我諗今次我諗大 10 家嗰個--尤其是我諗前線嘅救火嘅同事,即係去到我諗其實即係都係盡做,可以咁 11 講,係咪? 12 陳慶勇先生:正確。 13 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係你嘅--我明白當時嗰個困難,但係似乎我哋聽到你嘅證供就係,其 14 實考慮唔用係一個考慮過嘅決定,就唔係當時遺忘咗有呢一個系統? 15 陳慶勇先生:唔係。 16 杜淦堃資深大律師:好,跟住落嚟,我想你幫助我哋嘅就係嗰個消防裝置嘅問題,頭先今日 17 較早時候,你嘅同事董永基先生畀證供嘅時候,你都應該係坐咗喺後面? 18 陳慶勇先生:正確。 19 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋都係探討番其實當時何偉豪先生遇到嘅困難,而係有啲係政策上嘅 20 決定想你去同我哋探討一下。我哋喺閉路電視,喺今次嘅聽證會裏面都播過,其實 21 何先生佢係因為停低咗幫一位坐輪椅嘅婆婆,跟住佢就同佢嘅其他嘅同事走散咗, 22 佢自己就入咗宏泰閣嘅,即係呢個之後個證據好清楚。 23 除咗何消防員之外,其實我哋CCTV 亦都睇到,喺15:16,即係其實何偉豪走 24 入去宏泰閣嘅一分鐘之後,有其他同事係跑過入去宏泰閣,然後好快跑番出嚟嘅, 25 呢個你哋--相信你都了解當時嘅情況,係咪? 26 陳慶勇先生:唔。 27 杜淦堃資深大律師:或者我哋睇番當時嗰條片,C6/tab 1 嗰一條,好快咁睇一睇,個時間 28 係15:16:30。15:16:30。 29 (播放短片) 30 (短片播放完畢) 31 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢度我哋亦都睇到其實個火勢,即係喺個閘嗰度我哋反映咗。呢個其實 32 我諗我哋亦都要公道少少,當時個情況,因為你都講過冇處理過多棟大廈同一時間 33 係有咁大嘅火勢,所以有同事其實係搞錯邊一棟打邊一棟,似乎當日係有個咁嘅情 34 況嘅? 35 陳慶勇先生:了解到其實喺三級火警嘅時候,啲同事嚟到,唔係全部都係大埔局嘅同事嚟。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十八天

33 本謄本由Epiq 編製 杜淦堃資深大律師:係。 1 陳慶勇先生:有啲係其他唔同嘅分局嘅同事嚟到嘅,咁佢未必可以咁掌握邊一座係邊一座大 2 廈。 3 杜淦堃資深大律師:係。即係而另外你哋一貫嘅做法,其實消防員入火場,其實應該係唔會 4 單獨入,最少都係一隊一隊咁入,係咪? 5 陳慶勇先生:正確。 6 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋想同你探討嘅就係,當日你哋知道--唔知道何偉豪其實入咗宏泰 7 閣,當日,如果佢當日行咗去第二個大廈嗰度滅火,本來嗰個指示係咁樣,基本上 8 係佢走錯咗,因為有啲居民干擾到佢哋? 9 陳慶勇先生:本身佢係收到去宏昌閣嘅27 樓。 10 杜淦堃資深大律師:宏昌閣。而亦都有多少少背景,而當時因為嗰個情況混亂,其實有幾位 11 第二啲同事,其實係去宏昌閣滅火嘅時候,佢哋留意到有其他嘅同事入緊嚟,佢哋 12 都係深信其中一個係何偉豪,所以當時就冇留意到有人走散咗,你嘅認解係咪都係 13 咁? 14 陳慶勇先生:係,正確。 15 杜淦堃資深大律師:所以佢哋就繼續做滅火嘅工作。我諗我哋想你講一講畀大家知嘅時候, 16 汲取咗呢一次嘅教訓,知道可能會有同事走散咗,走咗入去另外一啲更加危險嘅地 17 方執勤,你哋有咩嘢教訓,或者有咩嘢策略去處理呢啲情況,去避免再發生? 18 陳慶勇先生:如果避免再發生嘅,我哋行動嘅時候,我哋通常用一個車更嘅模式,即係大家 19 都係同一架車嘅模式,咁去--呢個車更嘅同事應該係要一個緊密嘅聯繫,係。 20 杜淦堃資深大律師:講番何偉豪,如果我哋睇番你嘅證人供詞第11 段,你講到當時其中有 21 一樣,你去到嘅情況就係因為有同事有(English Spoken)嘅呼救,其實呢個 22 係對你哋嚟講係一個重大嘅事件嚟嘅? 23 陳慶勇先生:正確。 24 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,所以你當時向同事了解咗有關嘅情況? 25 陳慶勇先生:正確。 26 杜淦堃資深大律師:你可唔可以講畀我哋知,你了解咗個情--當時佢向你報告嘅情況係點樣 27 樣? 28 陳慶勇先生:我喺去到現場嘅時候,其實何偉豪隊目其實已經送咗院,其實,咁我問番當時 29 收到訊息嘅高級隊長許健安,咁佢話係聽到係(English Spoken)喺30 樓, 30 咁我當時第一個問題就係嗰個信息係邊個發出,能唔能夠肯定係何偉豪?咁當時係 31 唔能夠確定係何偉豪嘅。 32 咁我再問番其實同何偉豪同一隊車間嘅同事,佢點解會一個人落單咗,咁當時 33 佢哋都講唔到嘅,即係好似正如頭先咁講,佢誤會咗有啲--係。 34 咁跟住我嘅擔心就係,其實何偉豪會唔會拍咗第二個同事一齊做嘢,而呢個 35 (English Spoken)信息係另一位同事發出,又或者係同-- 就算係何偉豪發 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十八天

34 本謄本由Epiq 編製 出,咁另外嗰位同事會唔會仲係喺一個危險嘅情況咁樣,所以當時我要求佢哋做一 1 個點名嘅動作,即係做一個(English Spoken),即係肯定番其實淨係得何偉 2 豪唔見咗,而呢個信息係佢。不過當其時亦都有另外一個見習隊長,佢就話喺信息 3 度聽到係何偉豪嚟嘅咁樣。 4 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係佢認得佢? 5 陳慶勇先生:係,佢話聽到佢話何偉豪。 6 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢個就引申咗一個我哋今朝探討過嘅問題,就係嗰個入口指揮嘅程序 7 (English Spoken)。喺呢個情況之下,其實有關嘅程序似乎係就避免唔到何 8 偉豪呢一個情況,個原因你可唔可以都解一解點解? 9 陳慶勇先生:如果喺我哋一般情況,我哋相信睇番CCTV 嘅資料,何偉豪佢因為幫助嗰啲居 10 民嘅時候,咁佢同佢嘅車更失散咗,咁而亦都誤會咗宏泰就係佢原本要去嘅宏昌, 11 所以佢就喺宏泰閣就上樓。 12 咁依照一般嘅程序,喺肇事樓層,我哋會低兩層出嘅,因為好似上晝所講,我 13 哋要有一個橋頭堡嘅位置,(English Spoken)我哋嘅煙帽入口指揮。所以低 14 兩層,一般係唔會受煙影響,咁係一個合適嘅位置。咁我哋見到何偉豪當時係喺25 15 樓出咗𨋢,跟住如果正常情況其實喺嗰度,佢係一個入口指揮嘅話,其實就可以做 16 佢嘅工作嘅。不過... 17 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係換句話講,喺正常嘅情況之下,嗰個入口指揮應該喺25 樓,你嘅 18 意思係? 19 陳慶勇先生:如果一般一個單位嘅火警咁樣,喺25 樓係一個適合嘅位置,但係呢一個係一 20 個指引啫,都要睇場番當時嘅情況,唔係一個硬性規定話低兩層咁。 21 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白,因為火場嘅情況可能千變萬化。但係喺呢一個case 我哋講緊, 22 嗰個入口指揮其實喺邊度? 23 陳慶勇先生:當時其實係未(English Spoken)一個入口指揮,因為佢哋要去嘅地方其 24 實係宏昌閣,咁而佢沙田細搶救嘅車更根本都未能夠入到宏昌閣,喺出面佢哋個任 25 務變咗係要喺宏昌閣嘅地下打開條生路。 26 杜淦堃資深大律師:所以可唔可以咁講,因為其實事件發生得太快,其實嗰個入口嘅指揮, 27 個(English Spoken)其實未確立,同事已經走咗入去? 28 陳慶勇先生:正確。 29 杜淦堃資深大律師:係。而似乎呢一個可能我哋日後喺培訓或者畀同事嘅指示裏面都係一個 30 關注嘅地方,係咪? 31 陳慶勇先生:可以咁講。 32 陸啟康法官:即係話如果--因為我哋平時嘅火警多數都係一個嘅... 33 陳慶勇先生:單位。 34 陸啟康法官:...單位,所以其實喺嗰個單位之下兩層做一個(English Spoken),其 35 實都幾普遍嘅,係唔係可以咁? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十八天

35 本謄本由Epiq 編製 陳慶勇先生:相當普遍。 1 陸啟康法官:即係嗰個入口唔係一定喺下低嘅? 2 陳慶勇先生:唔會喺下低其實,因為如果喺下低嘅話,我哋要side up--因為如果跟程序 3 嘅話,其實我一通過煙帽入口指揮,我哋就要佩戴我哋供氣閥,所以如果將個入口 4 指揮擺喺地下嘅話,其實我哋會嘥咗好多氣樽裏面嘅氣,所以我哋會係儘量貼近火 5 場,但係唔受煙嘅影響嘅一個地方。 6 陸啟康法官:所以何偉豪隊目當日所做嘅嘢相當之正常,好似佢平時執勤咁樣? 7 陳慶勇先生:正常。 8 杜淦堃資深大律師:換句話講,可唔可以咁講呢?當時如果你講呢個情況係正如你頭先解 9 釋,何偉豪好理所當然會覺得,如果佢要上27 樓去救人,會有個入口指揮喺佢出 10 𨋢嗰度? 11 陳慶勇先生:如果套番落去,如果我係當時情況,我都會咁諗。 12 杜淦堃資深大律師:所以有好可能就係佢上到去先知道冇個入口指揮? 13 陳慶勇先生:亦都見唔到其他同事。 14 杜淦堃資深大律師:而都係因為呢個原因,佢身上高嘅其他裝置,我哋頭先探討過個 15 (English Spoken )、(English Spoken )同埋嗰個(English 16 Spoken)嗰個救助器,亦都係因為冇咗個入口指揮,所以冇啟動,係咪? 17 陳慶勇先生:正確。 18 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋啱啱都講過其實呢個情況,我哋見到呢個情況唔普遍,所以先有呢 19 個咁不幸嘅情況發生。我哋見到其實嗰個(English Spoken)個系統,其實喺 20 牛頭角迷你倉大火嗰個調查報告裏面,我哋都見到其實都係之前試過有同事係冇啟 21 動到嗰個系統而殉職嘅,係咪? 22 陳慶勇先生:正確。 23 杜淦堃資深大律師:所以就呢一個風險,其實都唔係第一次發生,都有存在,同埋試過有呢 24 個經驗? 25 陳慶勇先生:所以我哋同事如果經過入口指揮嘅時候,一定會做呢啲程序,呢度亦都係我哋 26 訓練嘅一個必然嘅內容。 27 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋睇番嗰一次嘅報告,其實嗰一次報告你哋都--即係我唔帶你花時間 28 去睇。嗰次嘅報告亦都講咗,就係話冇啟動個(English Spoken)係明顯影響 29 咗當時嘅搜救行動,所以呢件事其實係如果講得好白,係好大件事嘅,係咪? 30 陳慶勇先生:正確。 31 杜淦堃資深大律師:我相信呢一方面以後你哋係會有措施去改善同避免呢個情況再發生,係 32 咪? 33 陳慶勇先生:正確。 34 杜淦堃資深大律師:你頭先亦都提到,當日其實派咗沙田細搶隊嘅車去處理宏昌,所以你頭 35 先講話唔係大埔,因為亦都係有其他沙田嘅同事好早已經去咗,所以嗰個講法亦都 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十八天

36 本謄本由Epiq 編製 喺畀警方嘅口供提到,因為當時未攻宏昌閣,就未有個指揮站。我哋見到另外有啲 1 同事嘅口供都想睇下你可唔可以幫到手。我哋見到有一位叫做黃德輝(譯音)嘅見 2 習消防隊長,佢哋畀警察嘅口供,如果我哋去C6 睇2441,睇番第二段落少少,你 3 記唔記得有冇睇過?即係我睇下畀幾多時間你睇。你有冇睇過呢份證供? 4 陳慶勇先生:之前冇。 5 杜淦堃資深大律師:我或者可以咁同你講,但係你睇一睇,佢第二段就提到,佢係喺火警初 6 期搜索隊嘅主管,當時嘅車間係大埔東升降台。第四段如果我哋落去,佢咁講「大 7 埔東升降台到達現場,停泊咗喺浸信會公立學校旁邊」,跟住陣間我哋睇睇幅圖, 8 「見到宏昌閣外嘅棚架正在著火,冒出大量濃煙,當時冇聽到火警鐘」,跟住就話 9 「消防通訊中心無線電頻道出嘅通知,現場多個求助個案」,咁佢就記錄低,「與 10 此同時,待升降台車間就佩戴咗有關裝置。跟住然之後就派總隊目馮卓華(譯音) 11 同埋另外嘅隊員嚟宏昌閣天台通風散煙任務」,亦都係話「處理宏昌閣2701 至 12 2703 嘅求助個案」,佢亦都有派第二啲隊員去到第二啲處理求助個案。但係我諗 13 我哋專注嘅係2701 同2703,好明顯因為之後出問題嘅都係因為呢個求助個案。 14 如果你去C6/2446 睇下,我哋睇到佢顯示咗車輛停泊嘅位置,1 號係大埔東 15 升降台嘅位置,我相信而家大家都幾熟宏昌閣,宏福苑嗰啲道路。如果你去番第6 16 段,2442,佢咁講嘅,佢話「小瀝源細搶搶救車到現場,停泊喺大埔東升降台後 17 方,本人指示細搶救車車間在大埔東升降台旁邊設立入口指揮站」,跟住就繼續講 18 嗰個目的。 19 第一件事就係似乎當時係有多過一隊被委派去處理宏昌2701 嗰個求助個案 20 嘅,如果咁睇番 21 陳慶勇先生:正確。 22 杜淦堃資深大律師:而呢兩隊嘅隊員唔喺相同嘅地方設立入口指揮,即係正如你所講,呢一 23 個隊目嘅做法就似乎喺一個遠啲嘅地方,因為可能考慮過當時嘅情況,就唔喺個大 24 廈嘅附近添,喺個升降台嘅後面已經設立咗,我相信佢有佢嘅理由。 25 陳慶勇先生:唔。 26 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係如果係咁樣樣,呢個其實係唔係都係反映咗當時可能真係因為現場 27 情況太複雜,溝通係有啲混亂,因為我哋見到有兩隊人去,設立入口指揮嘅地方亦 28 都係完全唔同或者基本上另外一隊就係冇,但係有另外一隊嘅隊目就似乎喺遠啲嘅 29 地方係做到嘅。正如頭先所講,涉及何先生個情況,我哋唔係絕對唔係批評佢,但 30 係想睇下呢一度嘅情況你有冇啲咩嘢教訓或者有啲咩嘢解釋? 31 陳慶勇先生:多過一隊車間去處理一個救助個案都有咁嘅可能正確性嘅,咁如果正確嘅做法 32 可能就係沙田細搶係去埋呢個大埔東升降台嘅地方度報到,咁一齊做。 33 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係即係呢個就當時因為在場嘅情況似乎就冇跟平時嘅做法,係咪? 34 陳慶勇先生:因為當時嘅情況係有車間佢會唔同,即係唔同嘅車會有唔同到場嘅時間,... 35 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十八天

37 本謄本由Epiq 編製 陳慶勇先生:... 所以個前後唔同時間到場,未必可以同時去到同一個地點度做個入口指 1 揮。 2 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢個都係因為嗰個火警規模嘅問題,可唔可以咁講?即係如果全部譬如 3 係大埔嘅同事去,呢個情況可能會減少,係咪? 4 陳慶勇先生:同意。 5 杜淦堃資深大律師:陳先生,多謝你,你嘅證供對於我哋嘅調查有相當大嘅幫助。 6 陸啟康法官:其他各個涉事方?冇嘅話,孫大律師。 7 孫靖乾資深大律師:好,陳副處長,純粹有少少兩三個問題想同你去補充。第一個,就係頭 8 先杜大律師就問到你係關於嗰個疏散嘅問題,咁亦都有問到,就係關於嗰個叫 9 EAS,即係嗰個緊急警報系統,我就唔會再去詳細問你。只係想問一問你,就係頭 10 先你喺作供嘅時候有提及過,就係到到現場三點幾嘅時候,後來亦都陸陸續續有好 11 多警員就抵達現場,你亦都係有講過,就係話係當時嚟講亦都即係同以往消防同警 12 員之間嘅嗰個合作一樣,佢哋到場,咁佢哋會主要就係負責即係去協助一啲居民就 13 係去進行一個疏散。我就想問你,你知唔知道其實嗰啲警員佢哋去協助居民疏散, 14 即係除咗佢哋本身譬如話有喺現場,或者可能係有一啲警員可能有入去個大廈等 15 等,佢哋仲有冇倚賴一啲其他嘅方式或者一啲嘅設備係去即係提醒或者協助居民疏 16 散,你了唔了解呢? 17 陳慶勇先生:一般嘅情況,佢哋可能都會用到車嘅廣播系統,或者用一啲即係手提嘅我哋叫 18 大聲公一啲擴音器。 19 孫靖乾資深大律師:係,明白。實際上,今次喺宏福苑裏面即係嗰䭅情況,如果係警方方 20 面,你了唔了解佢哋係用咗啲咩嘢方式定係話可能我哋要問番警方嘅同事? 21 陳慶勇先生:我諗要問番警方同事。 22 孫靖乾資深大律師:或者我哋睇番警方嘅證據,唔緊要。另一樣嘢我都想問一問你,就係杜 23 大律師就畀你睇過,就譬如係喺A5... 24 陸啟康法官:我可唔可以問?打斷你。 25 孫靖乾資深大律師:可以。 26 陸啟康法官:我想問一問,即係當然--即係我哋頭先研究過呢個疏散呢個問題,即係警方疏 27 散,其實警方應唔應該上樓疏散?因為其他嗰幾棟樓,咁其實有機就會變火場,其 28 實有冇同佢哋--我相信咁細節就冇傾過,係唔係其實? 29 陳慶勇先生:現場冇咁細節咁樣傾過嘅。 30 陸啟康法官:即係因為其實佢哋上樓都可能有風險,變咗佢哋上去,就即係個火場都唔出 31 奇。 32 陳慶勇先生:有咁嘅風險嘅。 33 陸啟康法官:所以其實可能警方都要做一啲評估或者,即係我講以後。 34 陳慶勇先生:正確。 35 陸啟康法官:即係今次我諗大家會唔諗唔到亦都,但係可能大家以後都要做啲... 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十八天

38 本謄本由Epiq 編製 陳慶勇先生:我相信今次佢哋上樓都會有做一啲咁嘅評估嘅。 1 陸啟康法官:請繼續。 2 孫靖乾資深大律師:唔該晒,主席。呢度我諗都可能同主席交代,我理解其實亦都係有一啲 3 嘅補充資料或者係證供係由警方嗰度提供,關於有一啲嘅警員係有去現場,尤其係 4 其中嘅兩座,應該係宏仁同埋宏志閣,佢哋亦都有入樓係去即係協助一啲甚至乎高 5 層嘅居民去疏散,不過呢個證據亦都應該會好快我相信係會提供咗畀委員會。 6 陳副處長,跟住我就想你睇一睇,就係而家我哋螢幕上面見到嗰個圖片,頭先 7 杜大律師都有問過你一啲嘅問題。咁呢度我就想問一問你,就我哋呢度睇到,根據 8 呢個圖片就係喺一啲唔同嘅時間,就係話見到嗰個天井或者係光井個位置就係出現 9 咗一啲嘅火柱,即係包括就譬如話喺宏昌閣就最早,你見到就係宏昌閣就係應該我 10 哋相信係起火嗰個光井位置,就應該見到係14:58,即係係2 點58 分,接近3 點 11 鐘嘅時候就發現有一個咁樣嘅火柱。然之後跟住好快地就譬如話係15:04、15:09 12 就都係宏昌嘅,另外有兩個天井嘅位置,跟住我哋亦都見到係蔓延去宏泰,即係包 13 括係譬如係15:17、15:16,即係都係講緊前後可能係幾分鐘、十分鐘嗰個時間。 14 當時我哋呢個係事後睇番,我哋有個紀錄,當時喺現場嘅時候,其實你哋啲同 15 事或者消防嘅同事,當時喺現場其實係唔係--如果咁講,其實都未必能夠估計其實 16 嗰個蔓延個速度會實際上幾快或者實際上幾時會去到邊一座,喺當時嚟講其實你哋 17 係唔會知道? 18 陳慶勇先生:唔會知道,只知道係唔尋常地快。 19 孫靖乾資深大律師:同埋我哋亦都見到,當然而家事後睇番,就似乎可能因為風勢等等,可 20 能其他嘅原因,我哋仲要等專家證據。我哋見到就一路可能係由呢個東面向西面咁 21 去蔓延,但係就算喺呢一個圖片裏面我哋都睇到,譬如話上面嗰䭅16:22 嘅時候都 22 有向即係比較北面,都一樣係有蔓延上去,係咪? 23 陳慶勇先生:有嘅,都有嘅。 24 孫靖乾資深大律師:我想問多你兩樣嘢,第一個,就係我哋呢個圖就淨係睇到就係關於火 25 柱,但係實際上除咗火柱之外,嗰個火嘅蔓延據你現場嘅觀察或者你嘅理解,其實 26 係唔係除咗火柱之外,可能都會有一啲其他嘅火苗,可能係針對一啲個別嘅地方, 27 可能喺大廈嘅天台或者一啲單位出面,其他可能都會焫著咗唔同嘅部分嘅? 28 陳慶勇先生:會,絕對會,即係譬如宏盛咁樣,其實佢一開始係中層嗰度會起火比較嚴重。 29 孫靖乾資深大律師:明白。所以即係話如果我哋要睇嗰個火勢蔓延,如果淨係睇呢幅圖都唔 30 足夠,因為呢個淨係睇個火柱? 31 陳慶勇先生:正確。 32 孫靖乾資深大律師:第二樣嘢就係當然我哋亦都睇到啲證據,就喺一啲報告或者係一啲證人 33 供詞,就睇到就係話喺嗰個火災之後,咁唔同單位係有唔同嘅嗰個損毀嘅情況,詳 34 情我就唔講,但係即係當然可能我哋見到譬如話有啲就係叫做(English 35 Spoken),即係非常嚴重嘅損毀,有啲就可能嚴重損毀等等,有唔同嘅級別。但 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十八天

39 本謄本由Epiq 編製 係我想問即係基於嗰䭅單位嚟講去做一個評估,嗰個其實純粹係從一個即係燒咗之 1 後嗰個角度去睇,定係話即係有冇考慮埋譬如話對結構等等嗰個損毀?即係我想理 2 解,即係譬如話喺我哋而家嘅證據裏面講話有啲係嚴重燒毀,唔同程度嘅燒毀,嗰 3 個其實係最主要考量係啲咩嘢? 4 陳慶勇先生:我哋係去到單位度觀察個單位嘅內部。 5 孫靖乾資深大律師:係,關於單位內部。 6 陳慶勇先生:至於關於結構上面,我哋睇唔到嘅其實。 7 孫靖乾資深大律師:明白,好,唔該晒,陳副處長。我冇其他嘅問題。 8 陸啟康法官:委員。 9 歐陽伯權博士:唔該主席。陳生,我想有一個問題跟進,係關於水源嘅問題。 10 陳慶勇先生:係。 11 歐陽伯權博士:我知道當日照你同其他嘅消防同事都有講,你哋消防車又好,消防員又好, 12 已經係超出咗五級火嘅規限要多好多倍。但係喺個水源方面,喺鏡頭上,或者喺好 13 多市民諗法,當七座都著火嗰陣時,大家喺個鏡頭見到或者電視睇到,開個救火喉 14 嘅數量,請問用你嘅專業角度睇,一個咁嘅五級火我哋當日開嘅水喉或者喺水源方 15 面,或者聽下你嘅意見足唔足夠呢?唔該。 16 陳慶勇先生:如果講即係市民見到話有幾多支滅火喉開咗,其實嗰個只係睇到外部嘅情況, 17 其實喺大廈裏面,我哋都有一啲滅火喉開咗去進行滅火嘅工作。咁你話評估究竟要 18 有幾多條滅火喉先至夠,咁呢個即係好粗略咁講,可能你講會用五至六支,因為其 19 實樓梯個環境好狹窄,而且要推進上去,其實唔係咁容易,咁開晒好多喉喺度,其 20 實會阻礙我哋嘅推進。 21 歐陽伯權博士:嗰日嘅情況我知道好多都係用街喉,咁喺個設計方面,即係經過呢件事之 22 後,你覺得我哋嗰個街喉個設計適唔適合可以處理呢啲咁嘅大型火災呢? 23 陳慶勇先生:「街喉」嘅意思係? 24 歐陽伯權博士:我相信你哋用水--你都要攞水喺出面? 25 陳慶勇先生:係,係。 26 歐陽伯權博士:咁嗰個設計個布置,因為我哋好多時,好似見到... 27 陸啟康法官:消防水井。 28 歐陽伯權博士:係,消防喉... 29 陳慶勇先生:即係街井嘅位置? 30 歐陽伯權博士:係,街井嘅位置。 31 陳慶勇先生:街井嘅位置其實有一啲特定嘅(English Spoken),咁嗰啲都係經過一啲 32 評估,經過一啲好詳盡嘅分析先至會喺嗰啲地方做一啲街井嘅,咁呢個一般火警其 33 實係足夠嘅。 34 陸啟康法官:同埋我諗你好似有啲同事都講過,你哋策略最主要都係由內部救火為嗰個主 35 要,... 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十八天

40 本謄本由Epiq 編製 陳慶勇先生:正確。 1 陸啟康法官:...亦都解釋咗個原因係點解咁做。 2 陳慶勇先生:係,正確。 3 陸啟康法官:有冇其他問題? 4 陳副處長,我都想講幾句說話。我諗即係今次嘅研訊入面,即係消防處都受到 5 一啲嘅批評,我亦都講過好多次,其實亦都喺呢度呼籲,其實當日救火嘅努力同埋 6 呢啲其他防火嘅嘢係應該分開嚟睇嘅。同埋我亦都即係覺得其實嗰一日,我哋亦都 7 知道遇到咁史無前例嘅火,當時在場嘅任何人士係要作出一啲嘅艱難決定,咁當然 8 呢啲艱難嘅決定,而家我哋可以逐個搣嚟喺呢度分析。但係其實我哋即係都好認同 9 其實呢啲我哋去檢討,唔係去批評,而係希望今次大火之後,有咩嘢可以做得更 10 好,呢啲絕對唔係批評。其實我自己好欣賞你哋當時作出一個決定,就係好快已經 11 成立咗每一間大廈有自己嘅一個指揮官同埋嗰個救援,喺咁嘅情況之下,其實我相 12 信--我唔識救火,但係我相信其實呢一個嘅策略,我相信係一個正確嘅決定。 13 同埋我亦都想講,其實你哋嘅努力,其實喺傳媒、好多市民都睇得到包括你同 14 埋你嘅同事,咁喺嗰個嘅研訊入面亦都好多市民對於--同埋或者宏福苑嘅居民對灸 15 哋當日付出嘅努力係非常欣慰嘅。所以我都喺呢度想講,即使呢幾日可能都有好多 16 比較嚴謹或者唔係幾歡迎嘅批評都好,我哋亦都覺得即係呢方面我哋係欣賞,亦都 17 希望--因為你係當日嘅指揮官,亦都係想同你同埋嗰日執行行動嘅所有同事即係講 18 聲「辛苦晒」。好多謝你今日上嚟作供,我哋--你作供完畢,唔該。 19

20 12 時49 分消防處副處長(行動)證人陳慶勇先生作供完畢 21

22 杜淦堃資深大律師:主席,今日就係得呢兩位證人,因為證人調動嘅關係,我哋聽日會繼 23 續,聽日都係有兩位證人。 24 陸啟康法官:Okay。咁我哋會聽日10 點鐘繼續。 25

26 12 時49 分聆訊押後 27 (聆訊將於2026 年4 月24 日10 時00 分繼續) 28

FD06258 | 2025_港澳台_香港宏福苑大火_Transcript-(Chinese)_20260424.pdf

分类:06_境外及港澳台调查报告 | 年份:2025 | 地域:香港 | 严重程度: | 场所: | 起火原因: | 来源格式:pdf

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十九天

本謄本由Epiq 編製

就大埔宏福苑火災成立的獨立委員會

聽證會

高等法院原訟法庭陸啟康法官 陳健波議員 歐陽伯權博士

日期:

第十九天 2026 年4 月24 日

杜淦堃資深大律師、俞匡庭大律師、李澍桓大律師及馮天榮大律師代表獨 立委員會

孫靖乾資深大律師、陸栩然大律師、卓元暢大律師及劉逸冲大律師代表政 府

林樂夫大律師代表宏泰消防工程有限公司

律政司代表

競爭事務委員會代表

阮文躍大律師代表市區重建局

楊志聰大律師代表置邦興業有限公司

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十九天

1 本謄本由Epiq 編製

以下內容乃聆訊數碼錄音謄本 1

2 10 時00 分聆訊恢復 3

4 10 時00 分消防處助理處長(新界北)證人鄧榮華先生開始作供 5

6 陸啟康法官:係,杜大律師。 7 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,主席,早晨,下一位證人係鄧榮華先生。係,早晨,鄧先生,麻煩 8 你好似你嘅同事一樣,企起身將面前嘅聲明讀出嚟。 9 鄧榮華先生:本人鄧榮華聲明,本人所作的證供,盡本人所知、所悉及所信,均屬真實。 10 杜淦堃資深大律師:麻煩你。資料顯示你係96 年加入消防處嘅,係咪? 11 鄧榮華先生:冇錯。 12 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,而你係喺2025 年晉升到而家係消防處新界北區嘅助理處長,係 13 咪? 14 鄧榮華先生:正確。 15 杜淦堃資深大律師:你為我哋提供咗三份證人供詞,總共。因為你喺大火當日,喺關鍵嘅時 16 候係在場嘅總指揮,你有一段時間,所以你嘅證人供詞裏面嘅描述係比較詳細嘅。 17 我都相信你會確認嗰三份供詞嘅內容係準確嘅,係咪? 18 鄧榮華先生:同意。 19 杜淦堃資深大律師:麻煩你。喺你嘅供詞裏面我哋睇到你當時大火當日喺16:18 至 20 18:22,你應該係在場嘅總指揮嚟嘅? 21 鄧榮華先生:正確。 22 杜淦堃資深大律師:雖然你喺關鍵嘅時候提供咗好多有用嘅資料,但係我相信你啲資料因為 23 有好幾位你嘅同事都嚟解釋咗個情況,所以我就唔會--儘量嘗試唔重疊一啲我哋探 24 討過嘅問題。不過,基於你當時嘅認知,有啲嘢我都係要麻煩你。 25 鄧榮華先生:明白。 26 杜淦堃資深大律師:第一件事我想你幫一幫我哋就係,你第三份證人陳述書提供咗一啲非常 27 仔細嘅行動記錄嘅,我哋其實前兩日都睇過。喺文件嘅夾B10/5087 我哋見到有你 28 哋嘅(English Spoken),或者你睇一睇,等大家知道我哋講緊邊份文件。我 29 哋之前呢幾日都睇過㗎嘞,你喺第8 段裏面形容呢個係電腦打印出嚟嘅記錄嘅,我 30 都想問一問你,就係呢個記錄,個電腦嘅記錄係咁㗎,當時你哋係點做呢個記錄 31 㗎? 32 鄧榮華先生:當時我哋會透過MCU,我哋會畀message 或者無線電就去砸低呢啲資料,通 33 知control,即係通訊中心,就將呢啲資料整合。 34

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十九天

2 本謄本由Epiq 編製 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係換句話講,當日喺即時你哋將資料用無線電發放番畀通訊中心,通 1 訊中心就會有同事去記錄低在場嘅情況? 2 鄧榮華先生:因為我到場嘅時候其實有MCU 嘅,我哋一啲嘅資訊都係透過MCU 去整合,之 3 後最終就會上到去通訊中心。 4 杜淦堃資深大律師:你提一提大家,MCU 係? 5 鄧榮華先生:流動指揮車。 6 杜淦堃資深大律師:麻煩你。我哋睇番當時嘅行動記錄,你當日係15:12,即係消防處其實 7 接報嘅廿分鐘之後已經通知咗你係話宏福苑係有火警嘅? 8 鄧榮華先生:係,同意。 9 杜淦堃資深大律師:而你係由12:12(原文照錄)就開始你就前往火場,去到火場之前我想 10 問下你,你掌握到幾多資料? 11 鄧榮華先生:去到火場之前我掌握到呢個火警係牽涉棚架嘅火警,咁就响外牆。咁响15:12 12 嘅時候應該火警已經升為三級,我意識到情況應該係比較嚴重,就我亦都知道其中 13 一座樓叫做宏昌閣,基本上嘅資料我知道咁多。 14 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋知道你喺15:40 開始前往現場,其實你15:50 已經到達㗎嘞,我 15 哋睇番喺5122 頁嘅記錄。 16 鄧榮華先生:係。 17 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋見到你有一度ARF。 18 鄧榮華先生:係,即係「到場」嘅意思,係。 19 杜淦堃資深大律師:(English Spoken)嘅意思,係嘞,呢度見到你嘞。到場嘅時候, 20 可唔可以咁講呢?你去到嘅時候有兩座其實已經燒得好嚴重,宏昌同宏泰,可唔可 21 以咁講? 22 鄧榮華先生:同意。 23 杜淦堃資深大律師:而火勢已經蔓延到去另外四座,但係當時係未燒得咁嚴重,呢個準確 24 嘛? 25 鄧榮華先生:同意。 26 杜淦堃資深大律師:相信你都會同意喇,我哋同其他同事都探討過,今次嘅大火嗰個規模同 27 埋你哋要處理嗰個困難係史無前例咁惡劣嘅,呢個我相信消防處每一位同事都會認 28 同呢一個睇法,係咪? 29 鄧榮華先生:同意。 30 杜淦堃資深大律師:而你到場嘅時候,就到場當時有嘅消防車同埋你哋嘅救火嘅設施,我哋 31 睇到記錄就係如果喺B5/4379 頁,sorry,4329。我哋都想你解釋一下呢一個 32 文件畀大家聽,因為呢度亦都有個齊全嘅記錄。 33 鄧榮華先生:呢個文件有提及我哋18:22 呢個時間,即係升做五級火警呢個時間,我哋調 34 派咗嘅車輛調派嘅時間喇,同埋到達嘅時間喇。 35 杜淦堃資深大律師:所以我哋喺呢度就數到,譬如雖然呢個係睇到15:22 嘅情況喇,但係 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十九天

3 本謄本由Epiq 編製 如果我哋睇番... 1 鄧榮華先生:18:22。 2 杜淦堃資深大律師:... (English Spoken ),我哋就知道每一個呢度叫(English 3 Spoken),即係每一個你哋嘅設施係幾時去到,係咪? 4 鄧榮華先生:係,同意。 5 杜淦堃資深大律師:而右手面呢度就睇到有關嘅人士,可唔可以咁講呢?係幾時-- 6 (English Spoken)即係幾時去通知你哋,你哋要處理呢個火警,係咪? 7 鄧榮華先生:投入呢個工作嘅時間。 8 杜淦堃資深大律師:投入呢個工作嘅時間。 9 鄧榮華先生:係,即係有份參與投入,可能係(English Spoken),可能係(English 10 Spoken)咁樣。 11 杜淦堃資深大律師:所以見到個記錄,譬如呢度第二項“(English Spoken)”嗰度我 12 就見到第二個,你個名就喺中間,即係喺黃景文先生同埋見到呢個(English 13 Spoken)。 14 鄧榮華先生:副處長。 15 杜淦堃資深大律師:副處長,你就喺中間當時係喺嗰個火場去處理呢件事嗰個指揮嘞。如果 16 我哋數番喺你到場嘅時候,我哋睇到左邊講到嗰啲(English Spoken),我哋 17 應該就知道--好讓我哋有一個記錄,應該係有七至八架油壓升降臺、七架泵車、十 18 一架搶救車同埋兩架鋼梯,即係叫做旋轉台嘅鋼梯車嘅,我唔需要你再數,因為我 19 哋其實數過一次,但係呢個同你當時去到個印象應該差不多嘅。 20 鄧榮華先生:事實我去到現場,因為現場個範圍好大。 21 杜淦堃資深大律師:你冇可能見到晒? 22 鄧榮華先生:我冇可能見到晒所有嘅車輛。 23 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白。 24 鄧榮華先生:不過我嘅消防車輛的而且確亦都係响尤其是內園嘅位置,內園嘅私家路嘅位置 25 已經泊咗好幾架消防車响度,係。 26 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白。你第二份證人供詞嘅第10 段提到喇,你到場之後亦都確認咗就 27 係有個(English Spoken)嘅搜救行動進行中。就呢一方面去到你掌握到嘅信 28 息係點,你可唔可以講一講畀我哋聽? 29 鄧榮華先生:到我哋到場嘅時候,其實15:50,之後我大約用咗十分鐘嘅時間,之後就上咗 30 去流動指揮車(MCU),之後同事就同我匯報喇,偉豪--我哋嘅偉豪遇到一啲不幸 31 嘅事件喇,搵到佢哋。之前個(English Spoken)應該响15:55,即係差唔多 32 我到嘅時間已經响宏泰對出嘅空地就搵到偉豪。咁我知道呢個消息之後,咁就第一 33 時間都同我同事講一講,叮囑佢哋做一個(English Spoken)。以我所知同事 34 同我講佢哋其實(English Spoken),即係同時間已經做緊嘅咁樣,即係我哋 35 想確定冇其他嘅同事都有走失或者有遇到一啲特別嘅情況。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十九天

4 本謄本由Epiq 編製 杜淦堃資深大律師:除咗處理呢個(English Spoken)喇,因為要確保其他同事嘅安全 1 喇,你到咗場之後,其實當時你係未立刻成為指揮官嘅,係咪呀?過咗一段時間到 2 16:18 你先做指揮官? 3 鄧榮華先生:同意。 4 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋睇到你發畀消防通訊中心嘅信息,如果我睇番B10/5137 ,喺 5 16:18:00 嗰度我哋見到你有一個(English Spoken ),你落咗去睇先, 6 (English Spoken),係嘞,上高,「(English Spoken)鄧榮華」,你 7 呢度就話--我哋見到你嘅信息“(English Spoken)”,可唔可以同大家解一 8 解呢個信息,因為當中牽涉一啲你哋嘅術語,好讓大家知道當時嘅情況。 9 鄧榮華先生:好,呢個信息我就帶出現場就有七棟嘅建築物就起火嘅,咁每棟嘅建築物就有 10 31 層樓嘅高喇,咁長寬大約30 米乘25 米喇,咁宏昌、宏泰、宏盛、宏新、宏 11 道,我哋術語叫“(English Spoken)”,即係個火勢係比較大喇。如果普遍 12 普通嘅一個樓宇火警呢,如果整層樓或者絕大部分嘅一層樓出現呢個情況,我哋會 13 講“(English Spoken)”又或者個單位燒得好嚴重,我哋見到啲火舌即係燒 14 咗出嚟好猛烈嘅話,我哋都會用(English Spoken)去形容。宏建同埋宏仁我 15 當時嗰個(English Spoken)就係佢個火勢如果同呢五座大廈相比呢,就冇咁 16 嚴重,都係集中响外圍咁樣,所以我就用“(English Spoken)”呢個字,之 17 後我亦都帶出我哋用咗多條喉灌救同埋用緊兩個旋轉鋼梯車去出水做緊灌救。 18 杜淦堃資深大律師:我都想你亦都幫我哋再解釋“(English Spoken)”,因為我哋喺 19 記錄唔同嘅時段,因為啲同事去到目繫到個情況都會用呢個講法嘅。我哋知道呢個 20 係棚架嘅大火喇,正如你頭先咁講,如果個火警規模唔係好似咁樣樣嘅,即係應該 21 唔會用呢一個術語嘅。譬如如果只係一個單位嘅著火,你哋會唔會話(English 22 Spoken),定係只不過用番同一個術語,不過講清楚啲喺邊度? 23 鄧榮華先生:呢個術語某個程度上係反映嗰個火警嘅嚴重性。 24 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白。 25 鄧榮華先生:咁樣就冇既定一個即係好(English Spoken ),即係既定一個一定嘅模 26 式,個火幾多米乘幾多米,或者蔓延到去咩嘢位置。 27 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白。 28 鄧榮華先生:不過我哋做消防呢個專業喇,我哋同事都-- 如果我哋聽到(English 29 Spoken)一有建築物進入呢個狀態嘅話,知道呢個火勢都唔係唔嚴重,咁嘅一種 30 演繹囉,係。 31 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係見到呢個字,你哋同事就會知道係一個嚴重嘅火警,可唔可以咁 32 講? 33 鄧榮華先生:同意。 34 杜淦堃資深大律師:你嘅證供講到喇,當時陳慶勇副處長就指示你派咗更多嘅SDO 同埋 35 (English Spoken)級嘅senior officer 到場去確保八座大廈每一座都有 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十九天

5 本謄本由Epiq 編製 一個senior officer 負責指揮嘅工作嘅。陳副處長琴日都解釋過,嗰個應該同 1 佢琴日同我哋解釋嗰個(English Spoken)嗰個(English Spoken)係同 2 一樣嘢嚟嘅,可唔可以咁講? 3 鄧榮華先生:同意。 4 杜淦堃資深大律師:所以我見到你畀嘅指示喺 16:18 你就話係“ (English 5 Spoken)”,呢個就係當時嗰個原因嘞? 6 鄧榮華先生:正確。 7 杜淦堃資深大律師:跟住我都想你講一講就係你喺16:18 嘅信息後面,你都講到話你制訂 8 個“(English Spoken)”一個架構嘅,你就喺你供詞提到你指揮咗消防區長 9 林浩俊擔任宏昌、宏泰同宏盛嘅救火工作喇,助理消防區長張樂恒就負責另外四棟 10 起火嘅大廈,另外由黃景文擔任(English Spoken)處理求助個案。即係呢啲 11 你哋嘅委派工作,呢個(English Spoken)嘅決定就係你當時去做嘅? 12 鄧榮華先生:正確。 13 杜淦堃資深大律師:另外,我哋見到喺你處理嗰兩個鐘頭裏面,另外都發生咗幾件事嘅。你 14 第二份證人供詞提到喺16:44 嘅時候你要求咗消防通訊中心調派多四架消防車, 15 同埋一架鋼梯,即係你哋嘅英文就(English Spoken)協助救火嘅。當時我想 16 問下你,你可唔可以同大家講解下,點解喺嗰個時候要求呢啲額外嘅支援? 17 鄧榮華先生:係,當時我(English Spoken)到個情況响內園個位置我哋可以擺多一把 18 鋼梯,所以我就作出一個咁嘅要求嘗試可唔可以响嗰個位置,我相信可以,所以我 19 就調派咗一架鋼梯。另外嗰四架消防車,我預視嗰個火警都會繼續即係落去,需要 20 額外更多嘅資源。另外,我哋鋼梯車都需要有一台嘅泵水車提供供水畀佢嘅,咁我 21 所以我就要求多四架消防車加埋一把鋼梯到現場,咁係即係防患未然,即係做好一 22 個部署好,多啲資源。 23 杜淦堃資深大律師:另外,我哋知道喺16:40 開始,就亦都係有更加多搜救隊被派往現場 24 進行搜救嘅工作。你嘅供詞亦都提到,或者呢度記錄亦都有睇到嘅,譬如5145, 25 喺16:40:46,5145 頁,16:40:46,你見到四個(English Spoken),呢 26 個都係你發出嘅指令嚟嘅,係咪? 27 鄧榮華先生:呢個應該係(English Spoken)提出嘅指令。 28 杜淦堃資深大律師:黃景文,係咪呀? 29 鄧榮華先生:相信係。因為你見到前面LKG MCU,咁呢一架嘅MCU 就係協助做呢啲求助個 30 案嘅流動指揮車,當時黃景文,我嘅副手就同呢架MCU 嘅工作人員緊密聯繫。 31 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋見到要求多啲搜救隊分咗幾個階段,16:40 就四隊,之後個記錄可 32 以睇到,18:11 多四隊,18:51 亦都多四隊嘅。呢啲當時你係在場嘅指揮官,當 33 然呢啲決定都係你有份參與,定係黃景文佢自己可以決定? 34 鄧榮華先生:我想強調其實响一個咁大型嘅火警裏面,咁我哋咁多嘅高級人員响現場,我哋 35 可以有自己嘅--响自己範疇裏面做一個決定去增加資源嘅,我哋冇任何嘅order 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十九天

6 本謄本由Epiq 編製 或者(English Spoken)係阻止一個同事合理地就要求資源。因為如果一啲資 1 源佢需要嘅話去做拯救,佢一定係最清楚。唔需要即係架床疊屋,再經過一輪去到 2 總指揮做個(English Spoken)之後再畀,當然,呢個有一個彈性係畀現場嘅 3 所有指揮嘅同事。 4 杜淦堃資深大律師:如果咁理解啱唔啱?因為你頭先都解釋咗,因為黃景文先生佢係嗰架 5 MCU 佢係負責一啲求助嘅個案,所以由佢去要求更加多搜索隊可能係最合適嗰位指 6 揮官,會唔會係咁嘅理由? 7 鄧榮華先生:應該理解為佢最清楚究竟需要幾多嘅資源,或者點樣調配個資源去應對現場嘅 8 搜救工作。 9 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白。 10 鄧榮華先生:唔該。 11 杜淦堃資深大律師:跟住我就想你去睇一睇由16:18 到18:30 裏面,喺嗰兩個小時裏面, 12 另外一啲部署嘅範疇。我哋知道每一座大廈有個(English Spoken )去指揮 13 喇,即係後面解釋個(English Spoken)嘅(English Spoken)喇。我哋 14 睇番B10/5150,喺16:52 嘅時候呢,16:52:09 你睇,呢度亦都有一個你發出 15 嚟嘅信息,或者你都同大家解一解。 16 鄧榮華先生:我呢個信訊就係話我當時報告番,開始就指派到達現場嘅(English 17 Spoken)去各個唔同嘅大廈就執掌嗰個指揮工作進行中。咁當時我睇到有大量嘅 18 棚架同埋一啲灰燼由高處咁樣墮下,同埋响地下就堆積起嚟嘅,咁樣我哋响現場就 19 進行緊灌救。 20 杜淦堃資深大律師:跟住我都想你同大家解一解喺5160 頁,喺17:30,呢度亦都有另外一 21 個你發出嘅信息嘅記錄嘅,呢個記錄又係點樣去理解? 22 鄧榮華先生:我呢個記錄就講出有七座大廈已經火勢都相當猛烈嘞,咁另外我哋用緊好多嘅 23 喉,多條喉同埋五把鋼梯嘅喉筆就進行緊灌救,我哋亦都用緊無人機去做一個上空 24 嘅監測,咁樣而頭先嘅調派高級人員去每座樓作為指揮嘅安排已經完成。 25 杜淦堃資深大律師:你嘅第三份證人供詞都有補充當時嘅情況嘅,或者我哋睇一睇 26 WS6/1866 頁,如果我哋睇第17 段,我都想你睇一睇,都跟住可以解一解畀大家 27 聽,在場公眾聽,你呢度解釋嗰個情況。 28 鄧榮華先生:或者我解一解釋。 29 杜淦堃資深大律師:係。 30 鄧榮華先生:我呢一段嘅意思就係話,即係响(English Spoken)就位之前,我哋嘅滅 31 火救援工作已經開始嘅。就亦都有啲快速嘅或者緊急嘅拯救,我哋都要嘗試去做 32 嘅。咁我就講咗一個嘅嘅例子,咁樣我哋有一個(English Spoken),就响早 33 期,就進入過宏昌閣,當時佢就想,就做一個-- 或者佢想做一個(English 34 Spoken),即係一個緊急嘅搶救同埋想即係疏散居民,想入咗去望一望咁樣嘅。 35 但係去到半層樓梯嘅時候已經受火勢影響,好熱、好大煙,咁佢遇到咁嘅情況之 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十九天

7 本謄本由Epiq 編製 下,佢即刻就落番去大堂,但係嗰陣時大堂已經突然之間嗰啲棚架就冧咗落嚟,咁 1 佢要都响一個咁惡劣嘅環境之下就要走番出嚟,去--否則嘅話,可能佢都會出事。 2 杜淦堃資深大律師:值得講一講嘅,就係其實18、19 段你都有接住,或者畀你睇番一睇, 3 解釋番當時嗰個困難同埋同事面對嗰個情況嘅,或者你都睇一睇,都可以同大家解 4 釋一下。 5 鄧榮華先生:當時喺宏昌閣,我哋去到現場嘅時候,火勢好嚴重,棚架同埋竹枝,同埋啲雜 6 物,乘住火勢,咁大家都知道見到都有好多條火柱,咁就跌落嚟。咁我哋面對一個 7 咁嘅情況,我哋第一時間就要滅火,又要睇住自身嘅安全去進行灌救。同時亦都好 8 擔心有大量市民响入面被困,佢哋出唔到嚟。 9 儘管係咁,我哋同事一邊灌救,一邊移開啲竹枝,咁希望可以抓到一啲嘅機會 10 入到呢座大廈嘅大堂先。儘管我哋知道就算入到大堂,又唔係代表上到去,因為相 11 信樓梯--頭先我講,有位同事入過去,其實都知道當時唔知點解,上半層樓梯已經 12 畀火同煙,令到佢要緊急撤離,否則嘅話可能會有生命危險咁嘅情況。 13 但係儘管係咁,我哋同事都竭力希望可以儘快入到去。所以响15:40 呢個機 14 會,同事同我匯報番,我哋都抓緊一個機會㧬開啲竹枝,搵到一個狹窄嘅通道,咁 15 就叫做入到去,就救咗--由15:40 開始,同事同我講番,就救咗三位嘅昏迷人 16 士,响大堂裏面嘅,咁就離開宏昌閣。 17 杜淦堃資深大律師:到20 同21 段,你都接住落嚟解釋咗,或者都畀你睇一睇,有啲你已經 18 係講咗㗎嘞,但係我諗20 同21 段都值得你向大家解釋一下。 19 鄧榮華先生:好。呢度我諗我簡單啲主要帶出。 20 杜淦堃資深大律師:係。 21 鄧榮華先生:即係火勢雖然係猛烈,但係我哋嘅拯救行動,係唔會因為火勢猛烈而有所停 22 止。我哋--琴日副處長都講過,成棟大廈都起火,我哋需要由底層逐層逐層咁去滅 23 火,向上推進。 24 咁同時,我哋嘅同事亦都會留意嗰個火場嗰個發展,如果有機會,我哋如果抓 25 緊到個機會,儘管嗰個火勢仲响低層,譬如二樓、三樓、四樓都非常猛烈嘅話,如 26 果我有機會嘅話,我哋嘅搜救隊都會去嘗試前往需要協助嘅單位就作出拯救。 27 呢度我都提出咗兩個時間點,兩個例子。就是响宏泰閣裏面10 樓同14 樓嘅單 28 位,我哋有啲同事佢抓緊咗一個拯救嘅機會,當然佢哋需要無比嘅勇氣,咁去拯救 29 咗市民。就分別响呢個時間,比較中層嘅位置,10 樓、14 樓,當時响宏泰閣嘅低 30 層嘅火勢都係非常之猛烈。 31 杜淦堃資深大律師:另外有一個困難,你都係可以同大家解釋,喺21 段嗰度,你都解釋咗 32 你哋嘗試過用鋼梯喺10 樓嗰度空降啲消防員入去,或者你都可以同大家解一解當 33 時你哋嗰個行動係點? 34 鄧榮華先生:响應對呢場我哋從來未見,或者未預知過--未預見過或者未有想像過嘅火警嘅 35 時候,其實我哋嘅同事或者我哋大家都會諗一啲方法有冇可以儘快搶高,去啲高啲 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十九天

8 本謄本由Epiq 編製 嘅地方去進行滅火拯救嘅工作。咁當時响宏泰閣嘅所屬嘅指揮官都嘗試過响10 樓 1 去想做一個橋頭堡,利用鋼梯從外圍進入10 樓某個單位,放啲(English 2 Spoken)入去,甚至放消防人員入去。 3 但係當我哋去諗住用呢一個策略去嘗試嘅時候,再去用鋼梯去埋嗰個想進入嗰 4 個單位嘅時候發現,其實左右隔籬嘅單位都燒得好嚴重。响樓梯嘅同事亦都講10 5 樓都係濃煙密佈,火勢猛烈,似乎呢一個策略未必可行。所以我哋就再調整個策 6 略,不過個重點就在於我哋同事係會諗盡一啲嘅方法,儘管可能未必實行到,但係 7 我哋都會儘量去嘗試。 8 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係似乎當時我哋聽咗咁多描述當日嘅情況,同事亦都解釋過,你哋用 9 一個叫做“(English Spoken)”,內部一層一層推進上去。你呢度講嘅就係 10 都有諗過其他方法,即係唔係淨係一層一層上,試下用一啲另外嘅方法喺較高啲嘅 11 樓層試下進入? 12 鄧榮華先生:其實每一座樓個情況都有所不同,我哋每一座樓個指揮官,其實都係一個相當 13 高級、相當有經驗嘅指揮嚟嘅。咁其實每一座樓都有唔同嘅方法,但係到最後都係 14 要採取逐層推進。 15 我哋响唔同嘅樓宇,亦都响火警嘅初期採取過唔同嘅策略。有一啲樓宇,有啲 16 同事即刻搶高,即係可能即刻嘗試去到高位,之後再做灌救。但係發現原來底下嘅 17 火勢好猛烈,令到佢哋冇辦法用到呢個策略,佢哋迫於無奈又要落番嚟。 18 亦都有一啲嘅情況,一啲樓宇,佢搶--經過低層嘅時候滅咗火,控制到,亦都 19 嘗試去搶高啲咁去做滅火,但係中間嘅樓層、底下嘅樓層又起火,所以係一個好動 20 態嘅一個情況,或者我哋需要時刻去(English Spoken),即係評估究竟我哋 21 需要乜嘢嘅策略。儘管我哋知道基本上嘅策略一定係內攻,即係內部滅火,亦都逐 22 層推進。但係我哋如果有機會嘅,都會嘗試一啲嘅策略加諸响上面。 23 杜淦堃資深大律師:你講咗當時嘅情況,我都有啲特別嘅議題想同你探討一下嘅。因為我哋 24 知道好早嘅階段,我相信你都知道,其實嗰座大廈嘅消防栓同個喉轆系統係關閉咗 25 嘅,我都想你講一講就呢方面,對你哋當日造成咗一啲咩嘢嘅困難,個影響係點? 26 鄧榮華先生:就住我想講少少關於消防栓系統嗰個用途先。消防栓系統就係畀我哋消防人員 27 去到樓宇入面灌救嘅時候,直接就由消防栓嘅出水喉攞水進行灌救。咁樣响宏福苑 28 呢個情況,佢出現嘅損壞情況,就令到我哋--第一,响高層滅火嘅時候因為佢個-- 29 兩個泵都冇著到,我哋需要用我哋嘅手提嘅(English Spoken)做加壓,因為 30 我哋嘅由街井畀水我哋嘅泵車,泵車再入呢一個消防栓喉轆嘅出水口。冇用--冇呢 31 個大廈嘅泵嘅話,單靠我哋個泵車嘅呢個壓力係未必足夠上到去高層。 32 所以上到高層滅火嘅時候,我哋就要--頭先我講過要用呢一個手提泵,而呢個 33 手提泵都有一定嘅重量。我哋响現場已經部署晒响度,有八十公斤。咁呢一度對我 34 哋嚟講,的而且確係構成一啲嘅困難,但係唔係解決唔到,不過大家都可以諗下一 35 個八十公斤嘅泵,响一個一米闊嘅樓梯,當時漆黑一片,究竟咁樣--即係咁嘅環境 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十九天

9 本謄本由Epiq 編製 之下,我哋要搬運一個咁嘅重物,係咪即係一件好輕易嘅事?絕對唔係,但係我哋 1 都可以克服到嘅。 2 杜淦堃資深大律師:我諗畀大家個概念,個泵其實你哋係要搬到個大廈裏面邊一個單位,或 3 者邊一個樓層,可唔可以都講一講畀我哋聽? 4 鄧榮華先生:呢樣冇一個硬性係邊--去放邊個位置。 5 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白。 6 鄧榮華先生:因為都係一個加壓嘅裝置,只要佢加壓到啲水,其實佢响低啲、高啲,都可 7 以。不過合理性嚟講,譬如話而家我哋單靠泵車嘅來水嘅壓力,用佢嗰條上水嘅喉 8 管,我粗略嘅估計,去到20 樓,如果我哋嘅泵車壓力畀大啲嘅話,都勉強--其實 9 可能都有效出到水。所以我相信我哋可能响十幾樓或者20 樓樓上,我哋就需要用 10 呢一個(English Spoken)去加壓,再令啲水嘅壓力提升,再高啲嘅樓層可以 11 做到灌救。 12 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁換句話,個泵係要送到上去十幾樓嘅,可唔可以咁講? 13 鄧榮華先生:同意。 14 杜淦堃資深大律師:所以或者咁講,嗰個消防栓同個喉轆系統嗰個停止運作,的的確確對你 15 哋實際滅火嘅工作其實聽你咁講,係都有頗大嘅影響? 16 鄧榮華先生:有影響,但係一個可以克服嘅影響。即係如果同--係,一個可以克服嘅影響。 17 杜淦堃資深大律師:明顯地如果我哋從--即係我哋而家就咁去睇,起碼你哋嘅同事要將嗰個 18 八十公斤嘅泵送到上去十幾樓,而係要行樓梯秤上去? 19 鄧榮華先生:同意。 20 杜淦堃資深大律師:當日你有冇資料,就係結果用咗幾多個呢啲嘅手提泵去救火,喺現場? 21 鄧榮華先生:我手上冇呢個資料,但係絕大多數嘅大廈都有利用,絕大多數。 22 杜淦堃資深大律師:另外我想同你講一講你哋另外嘅一個設施,個鋼梯,我哋知道呢個係個 23 旋轉台嘅鋼梯車上高嘅設施,我哋俗稱「雲梯」。你喺第三份證人供詞嘅第35 段 24 就講咗雲梯嗰個主要作用,喺高空滅火同救援嗰啲嘅工作嘅,或者你都解一解畀參 25 與聽證會各方聽,呢個喺雲梯個作用,同今次大火嗰個功效係乜嘢? 26 鄧榮華先生:係,我用番「雲梯」呢一個比較易啲明白嘅一個用語。咁响呢一個宏福苑嘅火 27 警裏面,雲梯係扮演一個防止火勢蔓延响外部去做滅火工作為主,雲梯有兩個功 28 效,一個就係外圍拯救,一個就係外圍嘅滅火嘅工作。咁大家都見到响宏福苑呢個 29 火警裏面,火勢係由外而進入內,所以我哋目測見到市民去透過內向外求助,需要 30 我哋雲梯去拯救嘅情況,我哋係應該都見唔到得多,我哋只係做過一個拯救,就 31 响... 32 杜淦堃資深大律師:其實嗰位被拯救嘅人士應該係喺聽證會提過。 33 鄧榮華先生:203 單位。 34 杜淦堃資深大律師:係。 35 鄧榮華先生:嗰個我都想講少少,其實嗰個--呢一個拯救都唔係想像中咁容易。因為嗰次-- 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十九天

10 本謄本由Epiq 編製 嗰個位置其實我哋擺咗一把鋼梯,响宏昌外圍嘅一條路,嗰條唔係訂明嘅緊急車輛 1 通道嚟,亦都好靠近宏昌閣。我哋呢把鋼梯去到現場嘅時候,其實都有好大嘅風險 2 去操作,因為啲竹又不斷跌落嚟,啲灰燼又跌落嚟,啲石屎、瓦仔不停跌落嚟,咁 3 去做呢個拯救嘅時候,亦都要一個水平咁樣去延伸佢嘅梯臂,响一個遠嘅距離咁 4 樣,咁樣(English Spoken),即係接近嗰個單位。 5 同事同我反映嘅時候,其實要逐個逐個,我記得好似應該係有三位嘅市民我哋 6 需要拯救。我哋需要逐位逐位咁樣去拯救佢哋落地面。其實同事同我講嘅時候,其 7 實當--因為我哋有一個籠咁樣伸展開去到達佢個位置,其實去到嗰個位置,當個市 8 民落個籠嘅時候,我哋鋼梯嘅警告燈已經響咗,即係因為大家都係支點同力點嘅問 9 題,因為要水平嘅話,個力點咁遠嘅話,其實... 10 杜淦堃資深大律師:所以因為佢喺較--嗰個係207 單位嚟嘅,紀錄,...(聽不清) 11 鄧榮華先生:203,我記得應該係203。 12 杜淦堃資深大律師:周志偉先生曾經嚟過畀證供嘅。你嘅意思係其實就唔係話嗰個樓層比較 13 低就一定容易啲? 14 鄧榮華先生:絕對唔係。 15 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,而個困難就係嗰個力學嘅問題? 16 鄧榮華先生:絕對係,絕對同意。我哋... 17 陸啟康法官:打橫要伸好遠? 18 杜淦堃資深大律師:係。 19 鄧榮華先生:係,打橫伸好遠,因為嗰個位距離都一段距離咁樣,佢要打橫咁樣伸過去,咁 20 逐個逐個--其實嗰陣時個警號燈都著咗嘅,同事同我講。因... 21 杜淦堃資深大律師:個警號燈響係因為個負重嘅問題? 22 鄧榮華先生:係,負荷一個警號,咁所以佢逐個逐個、一個一個咁樣救番落地面。其實當陣 23 時,上面嘅火勢都非--宏昌我諗大家都見到,咁及後我哋呢把鋼梯做完呢個拯救之 24 後,又再部署,就响番嗰個位置去做灌救。 25 咁去到傍晚時分,其實嗰把鋼梯嘅一啲嘅部件,响梯臂嘅一啲部件都被燒毀, 26 最後呢把鋼梯係操作唔到,佢已經唔可以伸展,唔可以轉動,最後我哋--我哋現場 27 都有工作嘅--工程人員去做維修都唔得,我哋要用手動一啲方法,當然都唔係好困 28 難,將把梯收番至可以即係將把梯就送走。 29 咁我再講其他鋼梯,我哋其實响宏福苑裏面,樓宇同樓宇之間係好多緊急車輛 30 通道。但係好不幸地,呢單火警發生嘅時候,竹枝、雜物、灰燼,都將呢啲我哋叫 31 EVA 係已經覆蓋咗。我哋如果睇番圖中間有個內園,一條路嘅位置,即係有個旋 32 轉... 33 杜淦堃資深大律師:或者容易啲解釋,我哋不如畀你睇睇B10/5555。 34 鄧榮華先生:係。 35 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢個會唔會方便你去解釋? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十九天

11 本謄本由Epiq 編製 鄧榮華先生:好,好,中間大家見到內園有一條路,都係一條我哋叫做都係喺呢個樓宇整體 1 嘅設計度,中間有個(English Spoken),... 2 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係有三個箭嘴嗰度? 3 鄧榮華先生:...內園路,呢一度都係一個訂明嘅EVA。但係其實响中間見到有個C 字位, 4 其實如果大家去現場好似一個公園咁一個位,其實响宏仁同宏泰中間嗰個位亦都係 5 個EVA,宏道同宏新中間隔住嗰度都係一個EVA 嚟嘅,即係呢度係好多嘅路,緊急 6 嘅時候可以畀緊急車輛停靠响入面,咁樣但係我哋都見到現場嘅時候好多灰燼、好 7 多竹枝已經覆蓋咗咗呢啲位。EVA 有其中一個嘅要求,呢一類嘅EVA 有個要求,就 8 係距離個大廈唔可以多過10 米,同埋個寬度,同埋嗰個承載量,個目的就係想畀 9 我哋嘅消防車輛,當然包括鋼梯儘量靠近。所以我哋面對一個問題就係話,我哋睇 10 番呢個圖,其實絕大多數如果樓宇中間嘅呢啲我哋而家冇標示一啲位置嘅緊急車輛 11 通道已經被覆蓋咗,最有利去部署雲梯嘅一啲位置响嗰個情況就未必仲存在。儘管 12 係咁,我哋都响宏福苑唔同嘅路周圍都部署咗鋼梯,希望可以做到防止火勢蔓延 13 嘅。 14 杜淦堃資深大律師:或者可能我哋睇5558,即係就會睇到你哋後期部署咗嘅車輛。如果我 15 聽冇理解錯,你嘅意思就係其實喺樓宇同樓宇中間一啲位置,本來都係EVA 嚟嘅, 16 係咪?即係我哋唔係明顯嘅車路,... 17 鄧榮華先生:係,係,冇錯,即係... 18 杜淦堃資深大律師:...但係當時就因為上高一啲燃燒咗嘅物料就阻住咗入唔到,所以我哋 19 見到你而家5558,其實呢個係較後期嘅情況,我哋睇到係喺晚上6 點有關雲梯車 20 嘅停泊情況嚟嘅,所以我諗你嘅解釋就係唔可以泊近啲嘅原因,係咪? 21 鄧榮華先生:係。 22 陸啟康法官:可唔可以--我哋有冇EVA 嗰個圖?如果冇嘅話,可唔可以叫佢可以試下--橫 23 掂我都未用過,可唔可以叫證人喺嗰個圖嗰度畫番出嚟? 24 杜淦堃資深大律師:你睇唔睇到--就咁睇呢幅圖,你可唔可以準確畫到邊條係EVA? 25 鄧榮華先生:我諗準確--但係我可以講一講大約嗰個畀主席聽。 26 杜淦堃資深大律師:主席,我哋稍候可以畀番一幅睇到全部EVA 路線嘅圖,等委員會可以參 27 考。 28 陸啟康法官:咁樣仲好。 29 杜淦堃資深大律師:大概我諗鄧先生可以講解一下你嘅理解。 30 鄧榮華先生:唔,好。 31 杜淦堃資深大律師:我諗你冇可能好準確咁畫到,因為EVA 嗰個路線? 32 鄧榮華先生:係,係,係。 33 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係我諗好籠統咁講,就係喺譬如宏昌同宏泰之間嘅位置,呢個可能會 34 係一個EVA 嘅位置。 35 鄧榮華先生:可能係。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十九天

12 本謄本由Epiq 編製 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係而家箭嘴嗰個位置。 1 鄧榮華先生:你個(English Spoken)嗰個位置,係,係。 2 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係你講唔到嘅我諗就係係唔係每一棟--或者你幫一幫我哋,你嘅理解 3 係唔係每一棟大廈與大廈之間個位都一定係EVA? 4 鄧榮華先生:未必係一定,... 5 杜淦堃資深大律師:未必係? 6 鄧榮華先生:...但係絶大多數都係,即係我嘅認知。 7 杜淦堃資深大律師:主要係夠寬,係唔係要即係嗰個? 8 鄧榮華先生:要近,寬度、近喇、負重,係。 9 杜淦堃資深大律師:主席,及後我哋處理呢個。 10 陸啟康法官:好,但係我諗即係因為當時好多竹枝跌咗落嚟,所以你哋靠近唔到。 11 鄧榮華先生:我哋用唔到--响呢一個範圍入面,呢一類嘅EVA。 12 陸啟康法官:明白。 13 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋睇番如果呢幾幅圖顯示到嘅咩嘢呢?如果我哋返番5555 嘅時候, 14 我哋見到其實係喺每一段時間有關嘅部署係點樣樣嘅。如果5555 呢個其實係許健 15 安先生講到一早到場嘅部署。我哋去到5556,我哋就開始見到兩架鋼梯車喺度嘅 16 情況,呢個就係三級火警嘅時候你見到。跟住去到5557。 17 鄧榮華先生:係三級,啱,啱。 18 杜淦堃資深大律師:跟住5557,5557 呢個就係見到七架鋼梯車到場情況,睇番紀錄呢七架 19 鋼梯車應該係四架喺15:53 到,另外就係--15:53 到16:18 嗰度到達嘅,所以 20 呢個就應該佢哋到達之後嗰個情況嚟嘅。而最後就係去到5558 就係六點喥嘅情 21 況。 22 你頭先講到鋼梯車嘅第一個功用,就有用過嚟救番喺低層嘅人士,你都講咗個 23 困難。另外你都提到,其實佢唔係淨係救人嘅,對於嗰個滅火嘅工作,佢鋼梯車有 24 其他嘅功用嘅,我哋大家都見過有鋼梯車上高向大廈射水,呢個你都可唔可以補充 25 一下,有冇啲咩嘢資料同埋當時困難係點? 26 鄧榮華先生:係,我哋主要鋼梯車射水主要嘅功效就係有兩個,就係去撲滅棚架外面嘅火, 27 唔好畀佢再蔓延開去。第二,就係一個冷卻嘅作用,或者叫做降溫,即係响外牆做 28 一個降溫,就或者用一個叫做水簾嘅形式去阻擋一個單位入面嘅火焰即係再蔓延開 29 去嘅一個咁樣嘅用法。正如我哋各位同事都重申,我哋嘅救火策略就係一定要係內 30 部救火係最主要,呢一個係我哋所有消防人員一個好基本嘅一個認識,所以我哋就 31 會用呢個策略,因為鋼梯只可以做到嘅就係防止外部嘅棚架嘅火,撳熄佢,另外就 32 係頭先我講嘅降溫作用。 33 杜淦堃資深大律師:如果我哋睇番5556,呢個係15:23 嗰陣嘅情況,公眾一定會問,過咗 34 事件,當然係事後去睇番,有人會問點解唔喺早啲階段派多啲鋼梯車去,因為你頭 35 先都解釋咗,其實佢哋雖然唔可以進行所有滅火嘅工作,但係佢哋有好大嘅作用, 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十九天

13 本謄本由Epiq 編製 你可唔可以都解釋畀大家知嗰個部署係點,同埋點解有幾架係之後先去到? 1 鄧榮華先生:係,我哋一級火警嘅時候,我哋有一架鋼梯車,三級火警嘅時候就第二架鋼梯 2 車,到四級火警嘅時候,又會加一架嘅鋼梯車,呢個我哋同事响現場嘅時間,你見 3 到將火警升級,三級、四級,嗰度其實已經我哋嘅通訊中心已經要調派三部嘅鋼梯 4 車要到現場,同一時間黃景文先生去到現場嘅時候,好短時間佢都有增援多三把嘅 5 鋼梯。我本人亦都會响我(English Spoken)之後,都及後再增援一把。 6 我想強調嘅,就係話而家我哋睇到嗰個情況,响現場嘅同事係要不斷咁樣去評 7 估嘅,咁當我哋嘅評估發現需要更加多嘅資源,無論係邊一類車嘅資源,我哋都會 8 第一時間係作出呢一個要求同埋(English Spoken)呢個增援嘅。 9 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係當時如果譬如早啲嘅階段,在場嘅同事覺得有需要嘅,佢哋一定會 10 可以攞到呢個資源同埋鋼梯車係會嚟到嘅,不過如果聽你咁講,係相信現場嘅評估 11 就係嗰個階段未需要,所以就未叫更加多嘅鋼梯車嚟,可唔可以咁講? 12 鄧榮華先生:或者我覺得講得準確一啲嘅,譬如現場嘅主管將一號火警升為三級火警,其實 13 佢嘅評估--即係因為升咗火警之後會更加多嘅鋼梯車到場,其實佢嘅增援嗰度其實 14 都有一個評估,即係話都要呢啲額外車輛,包括鋼梯車到場。至於升級為四級火警 15 嘅時候,亦都有呢一個即係大家明白呢個資源增加呢個狀況。不過,你話係唔係真 16 係要直白咁樣去講升四號火警要乜嘢車輛,我哋不需要,我哋嘅通訊中心已經有既 17 定出勤嘅規模。 18 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係換句話講,幾多架鋼梯車到似乎同幾多級火係有既定嘅機制,所以 19 就係升級就會多啲嚟,咁理解啱唔啱? 20 鄧榮華先生:有直接嘅關係。 21 陸啟康法官:我可唔可以咁講呢?當日其實已經咩嘢級數嘅火都唔係--因為你哋已經覺得有 22 就會叫,即係係唔係咁嘅意思? 23 鄧榮華先生:係,因為去到四級火,我哋既定累積嘅出勤鋼梯都係三把鋼梯,所以我哋現場 24 都即時--黃景文先生到場冇耐,第一時間已經再加多三把鋼梯到場。 25 陸啟康法官:因為你哋喺每一次升級嗰陣時,你哋有嘅資源都係既定程序嘅唔知幾多倍,所 26 以係唔係其實已經係佢嗰個在場指揮官已經直情係要求咗多啲,佢亦都唔理已經係 27 升到幾多級? 28 鄧榮華先生:在場指揮官當佢將個火警升級嘅時候,佢有出勤--出動嘅規模,去到達番嗰一 29 個層級要出動嘅車已經既定晒,佢唔需要再講話要幾多車嘅,其實唔需要,佢一講- 30 -即係一提出三號火警,咁就會有一系列嘅車就會需要到場。 31 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白。 32 鄧榮華先生:呢一樣我認為都非常重要,因為即係唔需要去--即係增加個行動效率,可以短 33 時間已經可以調派到適當嘅車輛到現場。 34 杜淦堃資深大律師:或者咁講,即係我哋宏福苑呢個例子,其實一級火嘅時候,因為大廈樓 35 宇做緊維修,已經係多咗消防車去,多咗資源去嘅。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十九天

14 本謄本由Epiq 編製 鄧榮華先生:同意。 1 杜淦堃資深大律師:及後每一次升級,你嘅意思係唔係就係唔係升級先多啲資源,中間都有 2 加過,而係現場指揮官嘅決定? 3 鄧榮華先生:同意,同意。 4 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係主席頭先所講嗰個以倍數增加咗,用晒即係有嘅資源去,嗰個似乎 5 就係後期啲去到三級、四級嘅情況先係咁嘅? 6 鄧榮華先生:同意,其實由一級--三級、四級之後係。 7 杜淦堃資深大律師:吸取咗呢次嘅經驗,因為我哋知道有一個特別嘅情況,呢個就係我哋叫 8 做一個大廈外牆嘅火警(English Spoken )。咁喺處理大廈外牆嘅火警嘅時 9 候,當然你哋有你哋嘅方法去滅火,而雲梯嗰個作用你頭先都解釋咗。聽你嘅同事 10 講,其實大家都有檢討處理(English Spoken)嗰個配備係點樣樣。就日後處 11 理(English Spoken ),處理外牆大火,譬如需唔需要多啲雲梯較早時間去 12 到,呢啲都係你哋考慮嘅一部分,係咪? 13 鄧榮華先生:每一次嘅一啲大火之後,我哋都會做行動檢討嘅。咁宏福苑火警亦都唔例外, 14 我哋都有相關嘅委員會去檢視方方面面,吸取一啲嘅經驗,睇下响我哋嗰個安排策 15 略方面可唔可以--即係將來可以個涵蓋性、深度,或者個細化程度可唔可以做得好 16 啲,呢一方面工作我哋嘅工作係做緊。 17 杜淦堃資深大律師:另外我想問你嘅,就係似乎在場亦都有另外一個同事提過嘅問題,因為 18 今次係同一時間好多棟大廈發生火警,琴日我哋都聽陳慶勇副處長講過,呢個係有 19 乜見過嘅情況。亦都有啲同事走錯路嘅問題出現咗,佢解釋就係個情況可能亦都係 20 同有啲同事唔係喺大埔區消防局,喺第二個區調嚟有關,可能佢哋冇咁熟悉當時嘅 21 情況。就呢一方面,你亦都可唔可以解釋下你做緊指揮官嘅時候,留意到嘅問題同 22 埋你哋點去處理? 23 鄧榮華先生:當我做指揮官嗰段嘅時間,到達現場嘅車輛主管需要即係前往我哋嘅MCU 就做 24 一個報到嘅。我哋响嗰個機會,如果同事個車間嚟到,佢對呢啲即係現場每一座大 25 廈嗰個位置,如果佢哋有唔清晰嘅話,我哋係會提供個指示畀佢嘅,我哋响MCU 上 26 面係有地理資訊系統同各式樣嘅地圖。所以我覺得係嘅,因為第一次嚟嘅話,同事 27 的而且確可能第一次去到宏福苑邊一座响邊度,會唔會有困難,明白嘅。但係只要 28 佢報到嘅話,即係佢前往咗MCU 嘅時候,如果佢需要協助嘅話,我哋都可以提供。 29 事實上,前往現場嘅車輛,我諗之前--我唔記得咗有冇同事提過,我哋都有 30 MDT 流動終端機,咁嗰度都有一個即係大廈佈局嘅位置咁樣,所以就我自己認為, 31 就唔存在一個好大响即係我哋行動工作上面一個障礙。 32 同埋响現場其實我哋沿住嗰條中間嗰個內園嗰個通道,其實都有好多嘅,有候 33 派區,有(English Spoken ),就係總入口指揮,亦都有(English 34 Spoken),其實顯而易見,佢會見到一啲(English Spoken),即係一啲點 35 响度,咁呢一點駐紮嘅所有人士,响火警裏面佢哋一定知道即係每一座樓嗰個位置 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十九天

15 本謄本由Epiq 編製 响邊度。 1 杜淦堃資深大律師:麻煩你。我冇其他問題,主席。多謝你。 2 鄧榮華先生:多謝,多謝。 3 陸啟康法官:唔該各位涉事方有冇咩嘢問題?如果冇,或者政府孫大律師。 4 孫靖乾資深大律師:係,主席,純粹有一個好簡單嘅跟進。 5 鄧Sir,頭先就杜大律師都有問過你,就係關於一啲嘅資源同埋雲梯車嘅情 6 汜,頭先我都留意到主席亦都有問過,就係話其實喺今次宏福苑嗰個火災,其實就 7 不論你其實當時譬如話由一級升到去三級,又或者由三級再升到四級等等,其實當 8 時除咗就係話升級嘅時候,當然就會有既定嘅一個出勤規模。可能我想問你,其實 9 第一,就係除咗嗰個既定嘅出勤規模,你頭先個證供係唔係即係話在場嘅指揮官, 10 如果佢哋認為合理,佢哋要求去增加一啲嘅資源,或者譬如雲梯車等等,其實佢哋 11 都係可以係不論嗰個火警嘅級別,佢哋都可以提出㗎嘛? 12 鄧榮華先生:絕對同意,在... 13 孫靖乾資深大律師:而--係,你繼續講。 14 鄧榮華先生:在場嘅只要--因為我哋在場同事响唔同嘅位置,在場每一座大廈亦都有指揮 15 官,我哋亦都有拯救主任,我哋亦都有總指揮,每一個同事响佢嘅崗位,佢最知道 16 究竟佢需要咩嘢資源,如果佢需要額外資源嘅話,可以直接提出。而响呢一宗火警 17 裏面,我哋好唔同嘅多同事都直接透過通訊中心去要求額外嘅資源,譬如我頭先講 18 嘅拯救隊,我哋嘅拯救主任係不斷咁要求增援,亦都例如有幫我哋睇住事故安全嘅 19 同事,佢亦都會就住佢負責嗰個範圍,如果唔夠資源,亦都會提出嘅。我哋係一個 20 聯合作戰嚟嘅,我哋每一個同事唔同嘅崗位,佢都會做好佢嘅工作,而係唔係鐵板 21 一塊,我等資源我至做,唔係,唔係,佢哋每一個同事都可以適時去攞資源,去進 22 行佢嘅工作。 23 孫靖乾資深大律師:明白。我哋睇到就正如你頭先解釋,喺實際嗰個火災當時嘅環境,就除 24 咗即係話因為升級嗰個火警,就會係增加啲既定嘅資源之外,我亦都睇到,即係你 25 頭先嘅講法,就係其實同事都係有因應當時嘅現場需要即係去執行一個--或者作出 26 一個判斷,要求去增援一啲嘅資源或者係消防車等等嘅? 27 鄧榮華先生:同意。 28 孫靖乾資深大律師:好,唔該晒,鄧Sir,我就冇其他問題。 29 杜淦堃資深大律師:冇其他問題。 30 陸啟康法官:冇其他問題。 31 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔該晒,鄧Sir。 32 鄧榮華先生:唔該晒。 33 陸啟康法官:我諗對每一個唔在場指揮官,我都係講番同一番說話,我唔想再重複。但係我 34 諗當日負責救火同事嘅努力大家都睇得到嘅,亦都要講一聲「辛苦晒」。 35 鄧榮華先生:多謝,多謝。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十九天

16 本謄本由Epiq 編製

1 11 時05 分消防處助理處長(新界北)證人鄧榮華先生作供完畢 2

3 杜淦堃資深大律師:主席,或者下一位證人作供之前,可能呢個係一個合適嘅時間。 4 陸啟康法官:咁我哋休息十五分鐘。 5

6 11 時05 分聆訊押後 7 11 時20 分聆訊恢復 8

9 11 時20 分消防處處長證人楊恩健先生開始作供 10

11 杜淦堃資深大律師:主席,下一位嚟協助我哋嘅證人係消防處處長楊恩健先生。係,處長, 12 早晨,麻煩你同其他同事一樣讀出前面嘅聲明。 13 楊恩健先生:本人楊恩健聲明,本人所作的證供,盡本人所知、所悉及所信,均屬真實。 14 杜淦堃資深大律師:多謝你,請坐。正如我哋前幾日提過喇,因為我哋係調查緊一宗史無前 15 例嘅火災,所以就呢場火嘅各方面,我哋都喺過去嗰幾個月向消防處提問咗好多問 16 題,你哋亦都安排咗多過一次喺實地等我哋去了解宏福苑嘅情況,所以喺呢度我都 17 想多謝你哋嘅協助。委員會過去嗰幾個月係十一次向消防處提問同索取資料,而你 18 哋都配合咁總共係向我哋提供三十三份證人供詞嘅總共。所以對於我哋掌握當日嘅 19 情況、或者之前嘅防火工作同埋及後我哋要考慮嘅建議都有相當之大嘅幫助嘅。我 20 想第一件事提到嘅就係就你自己喇,你都協助我哋嘅工作提交咗兩份嘅證人陳述書 21 嘅,我相信你都可以確認裏面嘅內容係準確嘅? 22 楊恩健先生:確認。 23 杜淦堃資深大律師:喺宏福苑大火之後我哋留意到第一件事就係好多人將我哋香港呢個大火 24 同英國嘅格蘭非塔大火去比較,Grenfell Tower,因為呢個都係近期世界上高 25 最嚴重嘅火災。我哋相信其實喺2017 年發生英國嗰宗大火嘅時候,香港嘅消防處 26 都有留意到當時嘅情況,而考慮過對我哋香港嘅工作有冇影響,可唔可以咁講? 27 楊恩健先生:有留意。 28 杜淦堃資深大律師:當時委員會呢,佢哋個調查比我哋漫長好多,佢哋喺2019 年嗰陣就發 29 布咗一個第一階段報告嘅啫,我哋睇番報告裏面有一啲嘅提議嘅,如果喺A4 文件 30 夾,我哋都睇到有關嘅--佢哋嘅第一初階段嘅報告。有幾個提議,我都想你去睇一 31 睇,睇下可唔可以睇下你嘅意見。首先去A4/701 頁,你見到佢嘅--放番大啲先 32 得,33.6 段,我哋知道喺嗰場大火裏面其中一個火勢咁大嘅原因,都係一啲外牆 33 使用可燃物料呢個緣故,所以佢哋嗰場火燒得咁快同造成咁大嘅災害,同香港呢場 34 火有相似嘅地方,呢個大家都留意到嘅,係咪? 35 楊恩健先生:唔。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十九天

17 本謄本由Epiq 編製 杜淦堃資深大律師:跟住我哋去到33.9 段,你就會睇到702,呢度就提到其實有好多喺倫 1 敦消防處工作嘅人員其實都意識唔到大廈外牆大火嘅風險,唔知道外牆物料嘅可燃 2 性,亦都冇制訂過應變方案,呢一個係喺英國嘅情況。我再麻煩你睇33.11 段, 3 703,佢呢度就亦都講番一個不足處,就係喺大火前被派去格蘭非塔嘅消防員呢, 4 喺英國嘅情況係--委員會覺得佢哋冇得到恰當嘅訓練喇,亦都提議應該點樣進行相 5 關嘅培訓工作嘅。我或者睇多幾段,我先一次過問你。去33.15 段,喺704 頁, 6 而當佢哋嗰邊亦都出現咗個情況,就係點樣樣呢?我哋見到佢提到就話當時控制室 7 都受到相當巨大嘅壓力,佢個控制室,即係講緊我哋嘅999。 8 楊恩健先生:唔。 9 杜淦堃資深大律師:提到就係好多情況之下,個接線生就未能以適當或者有效咁樣去處理個 10 求助電話喇。而佢哋亦都要考慮點樣將控制室去提升佢哋嘅措施,處理大量求助個 11 案,同埋點將有關資料轉達畀前線嘅。 12 你睇到呢度尤其係C 嗰度,你見到呢度話“(English Spoken)”,同埋 13 我哋頭先講到D,亦都講咗話有啲電子嘅系統去記錄低啲有關嘅資料喇,喺嗰個控 14 制室嗰度,同埋希望呢啲資料可以同一時間就畀到前線嘅人員。再睇番33.20,喺 15 705 頁,呢度就講到其實當日個控制室發放出去嘅資料個方法係混亂嘅,亦都容易 16 出錯嘅。呢度其實佢個批評係-- 解釋個情況幾咁嚴重,第3 行嗰度睇到喇 17 “(English Spoken)”,呢個就係解釋個情況,佢之後嘅建議就叫有關嘅消 18 防部門去研究一啲比較新嘅通信技術,運用科技去處理。 19 到33.22 ,呢度就提到“(English Spoken )”疏散嘅問題,呢度就咁 20 講,就話“(English Spoken)”,即係冇一個疏散嘅計畫,到33.27,最後 21 一段我想你睇,呢度有講到就係個樓裏面,因為佢係伸延到去裏面,個指示不清 22 喇,消防員其中有一個困難就係佢哋都唔知道佢哋喺邊層。我哋無論英國呢場大火 23 或者我哋宏福苑呢場嘅火災,大家都知道係史無前例嘅,亦都有啲英國發生個情 24 況,佢個火同我哋係有唔同嘅地方嘅,但係點解我諗個比較咁多呢?就係個規模 25 喇,同埋喺大廈外牆嗰個易燃物嘅問題,我相信你都會同意,其實大家講緊嘅好多 26 痛點似乎係相似嘅,可唔可以咁講? 27 楊恩健先生:要睇番邊一個地方。 28 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白。 29 楊恩健先生:即係要細化番,因為整體嚟講頭先提及咗好多論點。我哋針對番頭先,其實我 30 哋喺Grenfell Tower 之後,我哋都有啲研究,中間都係針對番佢哋有啲 31 (English Spoken),我哋係喺啲政策上嘅改變。 32 杜淦堃資深大律師:如果我哋講得詳細少少,即係我知道可能你手頭上未必有全部嘅資料, 33 但係因為當然有一個咁嘅報告喇,消防處亦都考慮過嘞,你可唔可以都同大家略略 34 咁講下。 35 楊恩健先生:好呀。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十九天

18 本謄本由Epiq 編製 杜淦堃資深大律師:就Grenfell Tower 呢場火之後,我哋香港消防處其實都做咗啲乜嘢 1 去改善我哋或者做一啲風險防範。 2 楊恩健先生:講番第一樣先喇,提到嗰個樓宇外牆嗰個物料,其實喺Grenfell Tower 個 3 火警之後,我哋已經聯同屋宇署係嘗試去搵全港有冇呢啲相類似物料嘅大廈,即係 4 佢愛嚟做隔熱,但係可燃嘅,其實即時做咗,我哋係搵到,我記得呢,即係我印 5 象,因為當年2017 年我係助理處長,係搵到相關嘅大廈我哋係制訂咗一啲緊急預 6 案for 呢啲大廈嘅。呢個係一,即係針對外牆燒得著物料呢個議題。 7 另外,頭先有講過呢,其實Grenfell Tower 裏面有一個章節有講到呢,佢 8 係用咗一啲類似係(English Spoken)嘅註冊工程師去幫佢哋檢驗樓宇嘅消防 9 安全。正正就係咁呢,其實當日我哋係諗住會推一個註冊工程師計劃,我哋係將呢 10 個計劃係褪遲咗,我哋要睇下整體呢啲(English Spoken)中間有咩漏弊,我 11 哋想堵塞,我哋唔想咁貿貿然推出呢啲註冊消防工程師計劃。 12 第三方面呢,一個比較爭議喇,頭先都有睇到(English Spoken )呢個 13 policy,我哋其實都有研究,其實過去每一次火警有傷亡我哋都有研究,所以而 14 家我哋講出去教畀市民嘅唔係淨係叫你留低喺間屋,可能呢幾日嘅聽證都有講過, 15 我哋係(English Spoken)嘅,我哋要提啲市民,你聽到鐘你走,但係你一開 16 門見到煙,你應該入番去。如果你行落樓梯見到煙,你應該揀第二條樓梯,如果再 17 見到煙,你應該帶咗--我哋不斷教市民帶逃生三寶,你帶咗逃生三寶,返番入屋。 18 跟住近年,我哋仲多推廣咗我哋見到啲意外,多推廣咗咩嘢呢?就係教佢哋封嗰啲 19 門邊,儘量去封咗門邊啲煙唔入去。今次喺宏福苑裏面我哋都有用電話教啲市民用 20 啲濕毛巾、用膠紙封門邊,跟住就係打電話畀消防處話畀佢聽你被困嘅位置。所以 21 引伸咗出嚟就係我哋--可能你都會見到我哋較早前啲同事作供,我哋好早就係吸取 22 咗呢啲咁嘅經驗,我哋一啲過去嘅經驗,好早就開咗(English Spoken)。因 23 為我哋知道如果貿貿然啲--我哋過去嘅經驗就係好多市民一聽到火警之後呢,佢就 24 以為自己有能力係衝過啲煙,開(English Spoken)其實主要嘅目的就係我哋 25 知道將會見到好多求助電話,而呢啲求助電話我哋要畀一啲好貼心嘅指示佢知道話 26 畀佢聽「你如果見到煙,其實你應該入番去比較安全」,呢個就係關於即係聽電話 27 方面。至於可唔可以再重複逐點?我睇下有啲咩嘢可以講番我哋有啲嘢做咗嘅。 28 杜淦堃資深大律師:或者可以畀你睇番話嗰個控制室接收大量嘅電話嗰個問題。 29 楊恩健先生:電話,係。 30 杜淦堃資深大律師:因為呢個你都會記得,其實我哋香港上一次有大火,而比較記憶深嘅, 31 開咗個獨立委員會調查就係嘉利大廈。 32 楊恩健先生:冇錯。 33 杜淦堃資深大律師:嘉利大廈其中一個建議都係講到警方同埋消防就通訊中心嗰個溝通係要 34 做得好啲嘅。似乎喺短時間要面對大量嘅求助個案,呢個係一個議題,我想你解釋 35 一下。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十九天

19 本謄本由Epiq 編製 楊恩健先生:至於喺嗰個大量求助電話嘅議題上呢,其實過去唔係大火,我哋記得喺山竹、 1 天鴿我哋係遇過,所以先會發展我哋嗰個(English Spoken)出嚟去用電話去 2 處理一啲--因為我哋會見到通常一啲大型嘅事件,就會好多人打電話入嚟。所以係 3 做咗啲措施去希望可以令到儘快接收到一啲求助人電話嘅,不過,我相信呢個係唔 4 夠喇,我哋今次見到有改善空間喇。所以其實喺呢個禮拜我哋已經加咗三十條線可 5 以直接聽到999 嘅電話,其實喺大約兩個月後會再加多三十條。其實我哋見到有啲 6 咩嘢問題都係希望儘快去處理。正如我頭先所講,當日點解我哋會諗起要做一個 7 (English Spoken)呢,就係其實係較早前山竹、天鴿,颱風嘅時候我哋見到 8 嘅痛點,我哋就會即刻去諗辦法去處理。 9 杜淦堃資深大律師:或者我哋唔再花太多時間。另外一方面,亦都可以講一講就係大家比較 10 關注就係喺做緊大維修呢啲項目嘅時候,因為你同事好多位都講過,大家都同意其 11 實嗰個火警風險係高咗好多。我哋知道你哋有做一啲預案,就係關於救火嘅情況。 12 喺Grenfell 裏面提到就係有冇任何一啲疏散嘅計畫(English Spoken)嘅問 13 題,呢方面你都你可唔可以解釋一下你哋個立場係點? 14 楊恩健先生:關於個疏散,我諗唔可以單單純粹係一個行動去講。喺我哋個滅火救援過程係 15 講緊我哋去--個(English Spoken)會揀救人、滅火、同時都係疏散,係三樣 16 嘢密不可分,我諗每次行動都會做嘅,你會見到我哋有啲指引,就係搜疏隊(譯 17 音),搜疏隊其實最主要嘅目的就係去幫人疏散。所以同事喺呢個滅火過程,頭先 18 我頭先講嗰三步曲裏面係包含救援、救人、滅火同埋疏散。所以其實喺個疏散喺個 19 平時嘅同事嘅訓練或者實際嘅工作,一定會有呢個選項喺裏面,一定會。正如我頭 20 先所講,我哋內部嘅指引,其實喺搜疏隊裏面已經係講咗肇事樓層對上五層佢會做 21 疏散,佢會去搵人,或者係肇事樓層嘅下一層佢哋都會做疏散㗎。至於你會講話呢 22 個係一個垂直嘅疏散喇,咁橫向嘅疏散我哋有冇呢?可能你會記得就係我哋去到一 23 啲山火嘅現場,可能有時會迫近一啲民居,同樣地都係用咗呢個概念,我哋會做一 24 啲橫向嘅疏散,所以喺疏散方面我哋有一個策略同埋有一個指引。 25 杜淦堃資深大律師:換句話講,亦都你啲同事提過喇,即係經過今次嘅經驗之後,因為之前 26 冇處理過就係火勢由一棟蔓延向第二棟蔓延得咁快,就巡查、就防火嘅事情,消防 27 處都會吸取今次嘅教訓。委員會其中一個工作就係要提供一啲嘅意見,呢個稍候陳 28 詞嘅時候,我相信消防處會整合有關嘅意見,等我哋去參考。但係呢個引伸咗另外 29 一個問題,我都想同你再探討一下嘅,就係嗰個職權範圍嘅問題。我哋明白政府有 30 唔同嘅部門,而大家嗰個分工其實係有一啲機制去處理,之前亦都同你嘅同事探討 31 過。當然喇,嗰個分工就亦都唔係淨係部門與部門之間嘅溝通,亦都有背後嘅法律 32 基礎喇。 33 你知道之前聽證會我哋就呢個議題同翁錦雄助理處長亦都探討過,當時佢有個 34 咁樣嘅講法,但係我想再同你探討一下,就講得仔細一啲。我哋見到當時個講法似 35 乎就係話消防處同屋宇署嘅同事,即係BD 有分工嘅,就建築物料,例如棚網同發 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十九天

20 本謄本由Epiq 編製 泡膠或者係一啲被動嘅消防裝置,例如後樓梯生口,帶嚟呢啲嘅風險個主要責任或 1 者個責任其實就喺BD 嗰度。我喺再同你探討呢個題目之前,我都想等你睇一睇有 2 關嘅--同我呢個題目相關嘅一啲資料,等我可以同你具體啲咁去分析唔同嘅情況。 3 楊恩健先生:Okay。 4 杜淦堃資深大律師:我諗個出發點就係第一,我哋知道大廈樓宇維修火警風險高,或者好似 5 你啲同事講,差唔多最高,呢個大家係同意嘅,係咪? 6 楊恩健先生:同意。 7 杜淦堃資深大律師:你嘅證人供詞都提到,第二份嘅第5 段,你就講到,去點樣處理救火火 8 災,其實有唔同嘅方法,而個情況都好唔同每一次,好難一概而論。但係就防火方 9 面呢,呢個係一個好大嘅焦點,即係大家都同意預防勝於治療。 10 楊恩健先生:冇錯。 11 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想帶你睇番,喺你再解釋之前,帶你睇番B2 文件夾嘅第82 頁,呢個 12 係相信你哋最熟悉嘅條例喇,係《消防條例》喇。我哋見到-- 你睇下《消防條 13 例》,其實你哋消防處嘅職責喺(c)嗰度,你知道我哋提過就係「按情況所需就防 14 火措施及火警危險提供意見」,呢個係喺你哋滅火同埋保護人命、財物之後第三個 15 你哋嘅職責。 16 楊恩健先生:冇錯。 17 杜淦堃資深大律師:跟住喺火警危險方面呢,如果我哋睇番第2 條,個定義嗰一度, 18 (English Spoken),77 頁,你見到(f)嗰度咁講「實質上增加火警或其他災 19 難發生的可能性的其他事務或情況、實質上增加因發生火警或其他災難而會對人命 20 或財產造成的危險的其他事務或情況」,跟住然之後亦講到呢,「或在火警或其他 21 災難一旦發生時實質上會阻礙消防處履行其職責。」呢幾條條例我相信你會比我哋 22 更加熟悉,所以讓大家知道我哋嘅討論嘅重點,我淨係想畀你睇一睇番嘅啫。我哋 23 見到火警危險嘅定義其實喺呢一度係幾廣嘅,而似乎喺同屋宇署個分工上高呢,當 24 然佢哋要處理嘅事情,無可厚非亦都會同火警危險有關嘅,例如處理一啲建築材料 25 喇,我哋明白佢哋都有責任,呢個講法我相信大家都會同意? 26 楊恩健先生:認同。 27 杜淦堃資深大律師:另外,講到你哋嘅權力嘅問題,我都想大家知道我哋嘅討論,我哋去第 28 8 條(1)(c),83 頁,你哋嘅權力其實都幾廣嘅,第8(1)(c)嗰度,其實你哋可 29 以授權你哋嘅有關人士呢去進入一啲處所,去確定是否有火警危險存在。我哋知道 30 我哋嘅香港法例裏面,其實保障大家嘅財物或者私隱都好緊要,唔可以貿貿然進入 31 一啲冇授權嘅地方,但係你哋就被賦予呢一個嘅權力。雖然我哋見到譬如第84 頁 32 嗰度,我哋睇到最頂,亦都有時就要有啲書面嘅通知喇,亦都有情況之下你要向法 33 庭申請喇。但係去處理入唔入到一啲處所或者確定有冇火警嘅風險你哋有一啲其他 34 部門未必有嘅權力,呢個你同意嘅? 35 楊恩健先生:同意。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十九天

21 本謄本由Epiq 編製 杜淦堃資深大律師:如果我哋睇第9 條,89 頁,係「消除同防止火警危險」,你哋都有你 1 哋嘅權力嘅,譬如你哋有權力係消除火警同埋防止佢哋再度出現喇,即係再發生 2 喇。向任何人送達一啲叫做火警危險通知書喇,之前喺聽證會都提過,英文係 3 (English Spoken),個術語我哋叫做(English Spoken)個簡寫。收到 4 (English Spoken)嘅人士就要跟住(English Spoken)嘅指示去消除呢 5 啲火警危險。我諗我哋如果用一個簡單嘅例子講畀公眾聽,可能就係會唔會呢個係 6 一個好嘅例子,有一個單位裏面有大量嘅易燃物,你哋可能會出一個(English 7 Spoken)去叫佢搦走嗰啲易燃物,呢個會唔會係一個好嘅例子? 8 楊恩健先生:唔會。 9 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢個唔會呀,不如你講。 10 楊恩健先生:出(English Spoken )嘅,通常我哋係講緊啲阻塞走火通道,一啲 11 common area ,我哋唔會入咗人哋間屋,因為佢裏面係一啲私人財物,佢點處 12 理,我哋... 13 杜淦堃資深大律師:如果譬如大廈嘅一啲公眾地方擺放咗大量嘅易燃物,你唔使入去嘅,呢 14 個會唔會係一個好啲嘅例子? 15 楊恩健先生:冇錯。 16 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢個係你哋要處理㗎,係咪呀?另外,亦都有一個特別嘅規例,《消防 17 ( 消除火警危險) 規例》,即係我哋香港法例95F 章,如果我哋睇第3 條, 18 B2/189,第3 條亦都係同(English Spoken)有關,講到你哋嘅權力。而第 19 4 條呢,如果收到(English Spoken)嘅人士冇消除到火警危險呢,我哋見到 20 其實你哋亦都有權力去做啲咩嘢呢?佢唔做,你就去幫佢哋做,咁講啱唔啱? 21 楊恩健先生:冇錯。 22 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋知道就你哋同埋BD 之間,當然要有溝通亦都要有啲互動,但係所 23 謂嘅分工呢,可能就唔係一個硬性嘅分工,亦都係要睇每一個實際嘅情況係點樣去 24 做嘅,可唔可以咁講? 25 楊恩健先生:我會演繹為其實大部分都係一啲硬性嘅分工。 26 杜淦堃資深大律師:或者我哋用一啲例子等你去闡述番,亦都可以同你探討下呢個分工有幾 27 硬。 28 楊恩健先生:好呀。 29 杜淦堃資深大律師:如果我相信你都會留意到,我哋喺文件夾A5/769 頁有一個同你哋消防 30 處有關嘅案例,其實你見到呢個一個案例係(English Spoken)喇,嗰個答辯 31 人喺呢個司法覆核裏面就係你哋,亦都另外有一個相關嘅個體就係(English 32 Spoken)。呢個就係2016 年迷你倉大火之後,針對一系列你哋做過嘅措施衍生 33 出嚟嘅一個訴訟。當然,平時我哋未必要好詳細咁去同證人睇一個案例,但係因為 34 你哋係與訟嘅其中一方,而呢個亦都同你哋同BD 嘅互動有關,所以我都想你幫一 35 幫我哋去研究一下可唔可以做一個例子。呢個我哋據記錄睇到,其實喺當時個迷你 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十九天

22 本謄本由Epiq 編製 倉大火呢,其實對於消防處嚟講都係一件非常震撼嘅事件。因為喺嗰次嘅大火裏 1 面,除咗嗰個規模,嗰個大火嘅時間個長度喇,同埋你哋亦都係有隊目傷亡,所以 2 呢一個係對於你哋嚟講係非常大嘅一場火災嚟嘅都算係,可唔可以咁講? 3 楊恩健先生:冇錯。 4 杜淦堃資深大律師:等大家知道當時嘅情況,嗰場火燒咗108 小時喇,當時亦都有一個 5 (English Spoken)同埋一個(English Spoken ),有兩位同事係不幸罹 6 難。 7 楊恩健先生:冇錯。 8 杜淦堃資深大律師:同埋亦都有十位同事係受傷,當時有關嘅樓宇,其實三、四樓係完全係 9 焚毀嘅,呢個衍生咗大家對迷你倉嗰個關注。之後其實你哋都迅速採取咗行動,因 10 為喺火警--你哋嘅行動之後嘅三個月,其實你哋就檢查咗756 個迷你倉,而喺檢 11 查完之後,你哋出咗242 張(English Spoken),呢個係判詞裏面嘅記錄嚟 12 嘅。處長你當時都有參與呢個工作我相信,係咪? 13 楊恩健先生:嗰個迷你倉規管工作,當時我冇參與,因為當時我係做副總長,消防總部。 14 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白,但係當然喇,你自己冇直接關注或者冇參與喇,但係消防處喺呢 15 件事上高嗰個取態同埋一啲嘅政策,我相信你可以協助到我哋,係咪? 16 楊恩健先生:冇錯。 17 杜淦堃資深大律師:如果我哋睇番當時消防處就呢一件事件嘅立場同埋同法庭所講嘅陳詞, 18 我想你幫一幫我哋講一講番當時嘅情況。如果我哋睇判詞嘅14 段,第776 頁,我 19 或者略略咁去解釋畀你聽,如果你想用時間去睇或者你想我哋補充一下,或者你有 20 嘢補充,你可以講。第14 段裏面有幾個小段嘅,裏面提到就係話喺嗰個情況之 21 下,申請人嘅迷你倉見到就消防會採取一啲嘅行動,其實個行動就包括乜嘢?就佢 22 哋要處理嘅問題就係因為所有嘅迷你倉嘅窗戶其實係被擋嘅,迷你倉唔使有見光㗎 23 嘛,呢個係個第一個處理嘅問題。第二個問題,喺第10 段亦都有展開嚟講,就係 24 佢嘅隔離唔理想,因為可能用一啲比較可燃嘅物料去做隔離,或者嗰個防火嘅隔離 25 做得唔理想。 26 楊恩健先生:應該係嗰個倉與倉之間嗰個距離。 27 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢個係嚴重影響咗個救火工作,係咪? 28 楊恩健先生:係,冇錯。 29 杜淦堃資深大律師:亦都冇提供咗適當嘅指示嘅,即係有一個問題就係入到去個迷你倉嗰度 30 救火困難,係咪? 31 楊恩健先生:你講係咪C 段? 32 杜淦堃資深大律師:係。 33 楊恩健先生:C 段其實嗰個係消防設備嚟嘅。 34 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔,你可唔可以解釋一下? 35 楊恩健先生:(English Spoken)就係有啲情況,正常我哋就會啲門口有啲(English 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十九天

23 本謄本由Epiq 編製 Spoken)。 1 杜淦堃資深大律師:走火。 2 楊恩健先生:係,(English Spoken),咁嗰個係消防設備,但係有啲情況你房中房出 3 嚟未必見到個(English Spoken ),佢會有啲(English Spoken),你睇 4 到個(English Spoken )應該會指番去個(English Spoken ),係消防 5 設... 6 杜淦堃資深大律師:佢嗰個係--係嗰個不足,係咪? 7 楊恩健先生:係。 8 杜淦堃資深大律師:D 段就由單位到逃生路徑嘅出口直頭鎖咗嘅,嗰個就大家明顯估到個問 9 題喺邊度? 10 楊恩健先生:係。 11 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢啲嘅問題,當然你哋嘅立場就係大部分都同火警風險有明顯嘅關係, 12 係咪?頭先我哋提到A 至D 嘅問題。 13 楊恩健先生:火警風險同埋我諗最主要當時去訂立呢幾樣嘢,最主要就係喺迷你倉,頭先大 14 律師有講過,就係嗰一百零八個鐘嘅救火過程,我哋見到我哋喺迷你倉救火遇到嘅 15 困難,去制訂呢啲嘢出嚟。 16 杜淦堃資深大律師:而呢幾個大家見到嘅問題,我相信你哋嘅立場當時或者而家都唔會話唔 17 關消防處嘅事,係淨係屋宇署去管轄嘅問題,你個態度應該唔係咁嘅,係咪? 18 楊恩健先生:冇錯。 19 杜淦堃資深大律師:頭先A 至D 嘅問題。 20 楊恩健先生:冇錯。 21 杜淦堃資深大律師:佢哋--你會記得佢哋提出個司法覆核,其實主要個論點就係你哋同埋屋 22 宇署嗰個權力劃分係點樣去做。消防處佢哋嗰陣就咁講嘅,申請人嗰方,因為佢收 23 到個(English Spoken),當然影響咗佢哋嘅業務,當時就話消防處嘅權力係 24 限於與消防設備同埋裝置,即係啲主動裝置有關,相反,屋宇署就有制訂同執行建 25 築物規劃、設計同埋建造消防安全嘅權力範圍嘅。當時嗰個申請人都係話,似乎佢 26 哋個理解係咁樣樣嘅,同唔同意? 27 楊恩健先生:同意。 28 杜淦堃資深大律師:係。當--呢個案件你哋係勝訴嘅。即係而當時就法官就接受咗消防處處 29 長,你哋嘅法律代表嘅陳詞。我想你睇睇第38 段嗰度咁講嘅,或者你睇睇第38 30 段,你會見到呢度咁講“ (English Spoken )” ,即係(English 31 Spoken )呢度講,“ (English Spoken )” ,即係我哋頭先睇過嗰個關於 32 (English Spoken)嘅附屬法例,“(English Spoken)”。 33 換句話講,似乎當時嗰個法官嗰個睇法亦都係接受咗你哋嘅陳詞,就話「火警 34 危險嘅定義廣,涵蓋處所嘅隔離--隔同結構,重點係因為《消防條例》賦予咗畀處 35 長嘅權力,等你哋可以識別火警危險,同埋你哋有專業知識去要求有關嘅人士去消 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十九天

24 本謄本由Epiq 編製 除有關嘅危險嘅」。 1 如果我哋睇番47 段,你亦都有繼續去闡述呢個問題,唔好意思,我要即係麻 2 煩你睇幾段,等我哋之後嘅討論聚焦一啲。你呢度睇到“ (English 3 Spoken)”(「我哋要授權畀處長就係發出呢一啲嘅消除火警危險通知書,就係 4 引入呢一個消防危險嘅定義,呢個係喺條例嘅第2 條嗰度講明,我哋要確保就係儘 5 可能就係如果真係--我哋係要儘可能避免火警嘅危險,並且第二,就係要確保就係 6 對人命同埋財產嘅傷--嘅危害就係儘減至最低嘅。」) 7 跟住就講到有關嘅條例草案,之前,跟住就咁講嘅“ (English 8 Spoken)”(「所以第2 條就係蓄意咁樣就係用好廣泛嘅措詞,嚟到確保就係所 9 有嘅火災危險,如果係來自唔同,同埋就係不斷咁樣演變嘅情況,都係可以處理到 10 嘅,係喺呢一個處所嘅設計等等,亦都係可以確保就係喺撲火嘅過程入面係可以處 11 理到。所以處長係獲授權就係可以用佢嘅專長係可以辨別呢一啲嘅火警危險,並且 12 就要求相關嘅人士係要消除佢哋嘅,所以一講到火警危險,係只能夠就係由一個就 13 係火災嘅工程嘅判斷就係不可以持續嘅。」)呢個佢係拒絕咗或者佢係唔接納對方 14 嘅論點。 15 57 條,我都想你睇睇第57 段,呢度就特別重要嘅,呢度因為佢都引述咗另外 16 一名法官講關於BA,即係(English Spoken)嗰個職責,呢個就係另外一條條 17 例,(English Spoken )嘅職責。你見到嗰度咁講嘅,喺呢段中間間咗嗰度 18 “(English Spoken)”(「的確就係相關到就係逃生嘅途徑,就係消防處長 19 係好明顯就係有一個法定嘅職責嘅,但係並不等於就係建築事務監督就係唔需要就 20 係處理相關嘅事宜,就係喺完成咗建築之後都要處理嘅,即係話講到法律嗰個嘅角 21 色同埋責任嗰度,就係建築事務監督就係會太過受到限制,亦都就係唔單只係牽涉 22 咗新嘅建築物、現有嘅建築物,以至就係舊嘅建築物等等。」) 23 跟住佢咁講“(English Spoken)”(「我同意就係同樣嘅邏輯都係適用 24 於現有呢一個個案嘅,一方面,建築事務監督就係有一個嘅角色去扮演,嚟到處理 25 建築物嘅消防安全,咁呢個就係其他嘅法例嗰度嘅,但係並不表示就係佢係唔需要 26 就係處理同樣嘅事宜嘅,因為就係處長嘅法定嘅角色就係要保護生命財產,萬一有 27 火警或者係其他嘅災害發生嘅時候,都係需要就係就住防火嘅設施、措施方面需要 28 給予意見,亦都就係有時需要就係就住火警危險給予意見嘅。」)BD 即係 29 (English Spoken)。 30 我點解叫你睇呢幾段?似乎當時法庭就接受咗消防處嗰個立場,就係話消防處 31 處長係唔應該將建築火警嘅危險嘅責任就交咗畀屋宇署,你明白呢個係當時消防處 32 嗰個立場,因為你哋出咗啲(English Spoken),你哋係當時個解釋點解你要 33 出吖嘛。 34 所以我都想你解一解釋,我哋之前喺聽證會都提過,消防處同屋宇署有分工, 35 背後嘅原因就係似乎消防處就呢一啲建築物料嗰個可燃性,你哋覺得屋宇署或者BD 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十九天

25 本謄本由Epiq 編製 嗰面,佢哋有專業知識去研究下啲物料真係有幾可燃,我相信呢一個嘅立場你係明 1 白同埋同意嘅,係咪? 2 楊恩健先生:冇錯。 3 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係我想你都考慮一下,如果根據法例,當你哋嘅職責包括喺火警危險 4 嘅時候提出要消除呢啲火警危險,因為出(English Spoken)嗰個權力喺你哋 5 嗰度吖嘛。而當時你哋同法庭都講過,因為嗰個法例,火警危險嘅定律就好廣,如 6 果喺呢啲問題上高話「我哋冇一個專業嘅能力去決定呢個物料有幾可燃,所以呢個 7 題目裏面,消防處係冇一個角色」,呢個講法未必係準確或者可能係比較狹窄嘅, 8 我都想你可唔可以解釋一下? 9 楊恩健先生:好。 10 杜淦堃資深大律師:其實係咪就係咁樣樣?即係如果我哋用番發泡膠嚟講。 11 楊恩健先生:係。 12 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢個你哋係冇一個角色嘅,呢個講法未必係準確,係咪? 13 楊恩健先生:或者杜大律師可唔可以畀少少時間我解釋下? 14 杜淦堃資深大律師:絕對,我想你慢慢解釋添。 15 楊恩健先生:係,解釋下,首先講咗迷你倉呢一個... 16 杜淦堃資深大律師:好。 17 楊恩健先生:...--即係個事件引申出嚟呢個(English Spoken),即係可以咁講。 18 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,好。 19 楊恩健先生:跟住我就帶番去講發泡膠嗰啲情況。 20 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,呢個最--呢個次序可能會最清楚,你講。 21 楊恩健先生:係,因為都要解釋下當時迷你倉嗰個情況,迷你倉嗰時我... 22 陸啟康法官:你慢慢解,你有--慢慢解。 23 杜淦堃資深大律師:你有時間解,你慢慢解。 24 陸啟康法官:你有時間,我哋真係好想聽。 25 楊恩健先生:好。迷你倉當時嘅情況,係一個新興行業,2015、16 年比較多,我哋頭先有 26 提及過,處理完一百零八個鐘個迷你倉火警,其實我本人我都入過去救火,當時, 27 我兩日都冇走到,喺裏面救火。嗰種熱嘅情況,係根本啲人係入唔到去,佢每一個 28 倉裏面嘅隔格,啲消防員係窄到係入唔到,而每一個倉就好似一個火爐咁,一個鐵 29 櫃傳熱去另一個火爐,全部燒著晒,講緊係過千度高溫。喺咁嘅情況下,我哋見到 30 非常之危險,係需要一啲監管。 31 其實喺政策層面,當日係諗過唔同嘅方法,因為最簡單嘅就係用發牌,但係發 32 牌要立法,係需要時間。咁我哋同屋宇署--所以頭先我提到就係,屋宇署同我哋其 33 實兩個部門關於樓宇防火唔係鐵板一塊,一個管主動防火措施,一個管被動,係中 34 間係要有互補,去-- 特別係我哋知道,頭先杜資深律師有講過,我哋有 35 (English Spoken),比較闊啲嘅。所以我哋傾咗出嚟,其實喺迷你倉嘅規管 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十九天

26 本謄本由Epiq 編製 方面,我哋用(English Spoken )去管,BD 唔係冇管個喎,BD 一樣有管個 1 喎,係大家一齊去互補咗中間當其時見到個火警危險,所以就出咗嗰五個要求,包 2 括咗頭先講嗰個係一個50(English Spoken),我哋想每個迷你--呢個係一個 3 救火經驗得番嚟嘅,就唔想啲倉太過密,50(English Spoken)一組,跟住就 4 有個2.4 嘅闊度,迷你倉同--即係一組同一組之間有個2.4 嘅闊度愛嚟做乜嘅 5 呢,呢個亦唔係一個BD 嘅(English Spoken)嚟嘅,係我哋當日見到救火時 6 候,可能需要進入去嘅(English Spoken)。 7 咁另外就係有一啲係一啲(English Spoken )嘅(English 8 Spoken),頭先講(English Spoken),有啲(English Spoken),我哋 9 平時法例賦予做緊㗎喇,咁甚至係一個救援嘅窗,係(English Spoken)我哋 10 喺外面,因為當日我哋用原本嘅路入去,喺個門口入去,入唔到去。我哋希望有啲 11 救援嘅窗幫手去散到啲煙,咁就引證咗呢個迷你倉嘅(English Spoken )出 12 嚟,因為當其時正正我所講,係冇法例監管,所以我哋同BD 就傾,去互補。咁BD 13 做咗咩嘢,BD 喺呢方面用番佢哋嘅法例,就係管咗迷你倉嘅闊度,有啲--除咗頭 14 先我話2.4 嗰個救援通道,其他嘅寬度有用番佢哋嘅準則,同埋就係迷你倉裏面一 15 啲逃生通道嘅長度,而家佢哋都有管嘅,係兩個嘅組合引申出嚟嘅。 16 咁返番去發泡膠或者係生口情況,咁頭先我都強調就係我哋去管嗰時,係大家 17 分咗工嘅,好明確大家知道大家做緊乜嘅,係用盡咗自己嘅(English 18 Spoken),即係法例賦予嘅(English Spoken )去監管呢樣嘢,係監管一啲 19 當其時可以講係一個喺法例上真空嘅嘢,冇--因為大家都唔知去點監管,法例又大 20 家唔清楚。 21 但係去番生口或者一個發泡膠嗰啲情況,我諗係可能大家都會知道,就係本身 22 屋宇署係管嗰個(English Spoken ),開窗或者一啲阻燃物料,咁佢哋有法 23 例,佢哋有(English Spoken),即係(English Spoken)2011 裏面有提 24 及到呢啲唔做得嘅,咁呢個好清楚嘅。 25 如果用番迷你倉嘅案例落去,如果我哋(English Spoken)再管,唔係唔 26 得,就會重複咗大家嘅角色,大家都係管緊同一個窗。但係頭先我講,迷你倉裏面 27 係大家管緊唔同嘅嘢,BD 有管BD 嘅嘢,我哋有管我哋嘅嘢。但係如果要我哋管, 28 我哋可以管到嘅,但係會出現一個情況,我要即係陳述下就係,BD 做窗或者做防火 29 物料嘅考量比我哋多,可能之前同事喺陳述裏面有講過嘅,就係BD 會考慮結構, 30 會考慮採光,我哋唔會考慮。 31 如果我哋出消除火警危險通知書,叫佢做番個窗,我哋只係叫佢(English 32 Spoken)番嘅啫,BD 仲會考慮埋個工程要素,所以係BD 去管轄呢樣嘢係相對考 33 慮嘅範疇比我哋多,我哋淨係純係想佢做番原本嗰個設計,但係做完嗰個設計,可 34 能我哋正常情況下,去到呢啲(English Spoken )嘅嘢,即係(English 35 Spoken)嘅嘢,我哋其實做完之後都會同BD 要傾一傾係咪合規,因為我哋唔可以 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十九天

27 本謄本由Epiq 編製 貿貿然收咗一個窗,佢做咗畀我。 1 咁引申出嚟,今次大火之後我都想補充嘅,其實我哋同BD 都有傾過整體呢啲 2 窗、發泡膠嘅嘢,我哋係開咗會同佢傾。喺大家喺即係規管上,特別我哋有咗今次 3 救火嘅經驗,我哋都想畀一個(English Spoken)佢,啲窗其實我哋傾緊喺邊 4 度開,如果真係有工程需要,喺邊度開係最可以兼用到頭先我講嘅結構,BD 管嘅採 5 光、通風,又兼用到消防員去救火,咁我哋都係願意畀意見嘅。 6 咁至於執法上係咪可以--即係BD 其實佢而家有法例去規管,我知道佢哋會告 7 啲承辦商,咁係咪我哋需要去再加埋我哋去告,就我哋唔介意去負呢啲責任,但係 8 要兩個部門,正如頭先迷你倉咁,我哋一定兩個部門去傾好咗個分工,去針對番整 9 體大廈安全。 10 杜淦堃資深大律師:了解,你解釋得好清楚。或者我咁樣樣問你,換句話講,我咁理解啱唔 11 啱?唔係可以好硬性咁去講,話一啲被動嘅消防設施同裝置,呢個唔係你哋嘅職權 12 範疇,你哋只係理主動,我諗呢個講法太狹窄,可唔可以咁講? 13 楊恩健先生:冇錯。 14 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係就一啲被動嘅消防裝置,我哋見到其實都會對大廈嘅火警造成一啲 15 相當之大嘅危險,所以我哋頭先喺可能火警條例第7 條,或者第2 條火警危險嘅定 16 義,即係你都會同意,其實呢一個都會跌落去你哋喺法例底下嗰個職權範疇,只不 17 過其實你話喺實務上高,你要同佢哋溝通,係咪咁? 18 楊恩健先生:冇錯。 19 杜淦堃資深大律師:而有啲--我哋--我或者唔再花太多時間去睇嗰個案例,因為你都知道, 20 其實當時嘅法官都有講過話,你哋大家都有權嘅時候,大家個權力或者嗰個角色係 21 (English Spoken),即係你係要互補嘅。 22 楊恩健先生:冇錯,頭先我都有提及。 23 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,所以從一個消防安全嘅考量,因為你哋有保護生命同埋財產嘅責 24 任,亦都有防火同埋滅火嘅責任,呢一個唔可以就話因為嗰一個係一個被動嘅消防 25 裝置,你哋係冇角色嘅,我諗呢個講法就可能係唔準確,係咪? 26 楊恩健先生:冇錯。 27 杜淦堃資深大律師:另外有一個重點就係,就講番我哋呢兩個例子。你有同事講過生口呢個 28 情況,我哋知道呢一個對你哋嘅同事嘅生命安全亦都係造成好大嘅影響,因為喺呢 29 次嘅火警裏面開咗個生口,條樓梯就畀啲煙攻陷咗。似乎第一,你哋同事講就係 30 話,呢個同消防處見到嘅情況唔係一個常見嘅情況,你哋冇乜遇過嘅,可唔可以咁 31 講? 32 楊恩健先生:我自己本人,我冇見過,係。 33 杜淦堃資深大律師:而如果--當然我哋講緊一個可能係假設性嘅情況,因為如果有人投訴呢 34 個生口,技術上高佢唔係一個主動嘅消防措施,但係第一,我相信你嘅同事唔會唔 35 關注呢樣嘢,因為會影響到市民同埋你哋嘅同事逃生,係咪? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十九天

28 本謄本由Epiq 編製 楊恩健先生:冇錯。 1 杜淦堃資深大律師:同埋救火。至於出唔出(English Spoken),我咁樣講啱唔啱?如 2 果聽完你嘅答案。技術上高,你哋有權力出? 3 楊恩健先生:係。 4 杜淦堃資深大律師:實際上高,如果有個咁嘅投訴,你哋會唔會出,你哋要同BD 去討論? 5 楊恩健先生:冇錯。 6 杜淦堃資深大律師:你同BD 討論嘅話,你而家--我哋而家講唔到可能出定可能唔出,但係 7 以後出唔出,你講唔講到畀我哋聽? 8 楊恩健先生:頭先我講過,我哋同BD 已經開咗會,針對番宏福苑火警呢啲生口嘅問題,如 9 果--頭先我提及過嘅就係,BD 而家要顧及嘅範疇比我哋多嘅,但係我哋如果傾咗 10 之後,佢哋發覺如果我哋仲係比較適合,但係我哋都要問佢嘅,咁我哋係唔會吝嗇 11 去出嘅。 12 因為正如頭先杜律師所講,我哋嗰個(English Spoken)個涵蓋面係比較 13 闊嘅,如果能夠減低咗一啲火警嘅危險,係我哋係會出嘅。係,不過就要同BD 有 14 一個溝通,正如頭先所講,其實除咗法例,除咗呢個《作業守則》,我哋其實針對 15 番樓宇嘅消防安全係有一個緊密嘅溝通去分工,但係分工咗出嚟,如果需要我哋 16 出,我哋會出嘅。 17 杜淦堃資深大律師:換句話講,即係你哋有個權力會使用,而你覺得有需要嘅時候,你哋會 18 使用呢個權力? 19 楊恩健先生:冇錯。 20 陸啟康法官:我諗處長你都會同意,其實雙方溝通非常之重要,因為其實好多時佢哋都未必 21 一定可以--就算BD 嗰面都未必一定會知悉晒所有一啲嘅火災嘅風險,可能係你哋 22 比較... 23 楊恩健先生:冇錯。 24 陸啟康法官:所以我諗你都會同意,其實今次之後,即係雙方加強溝通係一個必要嘅嘢? 25 楊恩健先生:認同。 26 杜淦堃資深大律師:講番發泡膠嗰個事情,因為生口我諗係比較明顯,呢一個你哋一定會關 27 注。發泡膠嗰個性質當然係有啲唔同,因為我明白有好多工程嘅物料,佢個可燃性 28 其實由啲唔同嘅部門要去考慮。 29 有一個我哋處理嘅問題就係,發泡膠亦都可能喺火災之前,大家都會覺得可能 30 唔係自己嘅監管範圍,因為我哋睇ICU 嘅證人供詞,我哋前幾日先睇過,ICU 嘅證 31 人好似提到,因為佢哋覺得個執法嘅權力喺你哋嗰度,就發泡膠呢啲臨時嘅物料, 32 佢哋冇權力去監管或者執法嘅,咁我都想畀你解釋一下,就發泡膠而言,你覺得你 33 哋個角色係點?如果去到宏福苑呢個情況,有市民投訴「全棟大廈我哋個窗都畀發 34 泡膠封晒」,你哋有冇角色? 35 楊恩健先生:我諗係返番去頭先講過,BD 同埋我哋嗰個關於大廈消防安全嗰個規管,其實發 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十九天

29 本謄本由Epiq 編製 泡膠喺個窗或者喺個外牆,BD 有個嚴格嘅規管。正正就係咁,可能BD 其實啱啱喺 1 3 月都出咗一個《作業守則》畀業界,話--裏面佢裏面嘅《作業守則》嘅條文已經 2 有講過唔可以用發泡膠黐喺啲窗,即係啲(English Spoken)嘅嘢,佢都再提 3 醒啲業界係唔可以黐一啲發泡膠喺個窗裏面嘅。 4 咁又返番去頭先好似其實同窗嗰個例子一樣,即係如果我哋見到係有一個部門 5 係已經處理咗,而裏面係牽涉咗係多過我哋管轄範疇嘅嘢,我哋會同佢溝通,就算 6 係發泡膠,今次我哋之後都會再同佢溝通,睇下用咩嘢方法,而家佢哋嘅方法都係 7 如果佢哋唔移走啲發泡膠,都係會告個建築商嘅,都係會告佢嘅,咁睇下用--我哋 8 會往後嘅日子就睇下同佢傾一傾,我哋嘅執法好啲定佢哋嘅執--因為仲有牽涉咗一 9 樣嘢,發泡膠係有啲係唔易燃,如果唔易燃嗰啲係咪可以畀佢黐喺一啲窗?同埋又 10 牽涉咗一個頭先類似嗰個生口嘅問題就係,個工序嘅問題,如果--因為我哋就唔能 11 夠代表BD 去估計到呢啲工序嘅問題,或者係咪阻燃嘅問題,我哋--所以我會覺得 12 係兩個部門,我哋一定會負責任,我哋一定會從我哋滅火救援角度,喺(English 13 Spoken)嘅角度嚟睇,但係而家BD 係有一啲條例去執法嘅,咁係咪需要我哋執, 14 我哋用番頭先即係管嗰個生口嘅(English Spoken)一樣,如果需要,我哋都 15 可以嘅,係。 16 杜淦堃資深大律師:換句話,可唔可以咁講?我就發泡膠嗰個情況,你會同意係大家都有權 17 力執法嘅,就發泡膠,其實你哋都可以出(English Spoken)嘅?不過理想地 18 就應該同BD 溝通? 19 楊恩健先生:冇錯。 20 杜淦堃資深大律師:睇下佢哋會唔會處理?如果佢哋覺得唔應該處理嘅話,你哋再唔再處 21 理,就另作考慮? 22 楊恩健先生:呢度有少少補充就係... 23 杜淦堃資深大律師:好。 24 楊恩健先生:頭先講過,其實佢哋已經出(English Spoken)或者之前已經講到明,佢 25 哋係會處理,佢哋即係個分工真係幾清楚,佢哋講到明係唔可以黐啲發泡膠上窗, 26 即係BD 已經講咗係清晰,不但係火警之後我都講,我哋係有責任再同BD 去傾清楚 27 點可以處理得更加好。 28 杜淦堃資深大律師:或者我諗都公道啲咁講,你頭先講嗰個話唔可以再黐嗰個,係今年3 月 29 嗰個? 30 楊恩健先生:係。 31 杜淦堃資深大律師:大火當時,可能係就呢方面嘅溝通係缺乏咗嘅? 32 楊恩健先生:當時其實我哋理解,因為頭先所講,我哋嗰個分工就係有法例框架。 33 杜淦堃資深大律師:框架。 34 楊恩健先生:跟住下面嘅《作業守則》,跟住到平時實務,即係三層架構,實務就係傾好晒 35 邊啲係我哋做,邊啲係佢哋做。其實當其時,其實除咗個守則,即係除咗嗰個 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十九天

30 本謄本由Epiq 編製 (English Spoken)之外,其實(English Spoken )裏面已經有講到,即 1 係佢哋係唔容許一啲(English Spoken)擺嗰啲位。 2 杜淦堃資深大律師:可唔可以咁講?大火之前其實大家都有權力去處理呢件事? 3 楊恩健先生:冇錯。 4 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想跟住請你幫一幫我哋,就係探討一下消防處對於啲消防設施嘅規 5 管,助理處長姜世明其實都好坦率咁同我哋講係有進步嘅空間嘅,我哋頭先--我哋 6 之前都講過嗰個FS251 嗰個工作嘅問題,我哋之前喺今次嘅聆訊裏面都研究過, 7 其實係應該喺十四日裏面,你出咗個(English Spoken),十四日裏面會交畀 8 消防,呢個其實係一個法例嘅要求嚟嘅,係咪?呢個要求其實係讓消防處盡快知道 9 每棟大廈嗰個實際嘅情況係點,佢唔係淨係申請個(English Spoken),佢都 10 要解釋背後嗰個理由,同埋係有啲咩嘢導致失效或者失效個情況,呢個會幫你哋去 11 制訂有啲咩嘢其他嘅措施要去使用嘅,係咪? 12 楊恩健先生:冇錯。 13 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋之前知道就係--姜先生亦都提到,而家嘅問題就係收到個FS251 14 之後,你哋可能有一段時間執法同事其實係唔知道,因為未輸入個系統,個情況係 15 乎係咁,係咪? 16 楊恩健先生:要靠人手。 17 杜淦堃資深大律師:要靠一啲人手去輸出,而呢一個過程似乎有啲滯後? 18 楊恩健先生:係。 19 杜淦堃資深大律師:就呢個問題我哋見到,如果用一個月或者更長嘅時間先至去處理,呢個 20 亦都可能係唔理想嘅,姜Sir 亦都講過,而家都會考慮緊用一個電子嘅形式,可能 21 要佢哋用上網去提交嗰啲表格,咁就可以cut 咗個人手輸入系統嘅問題,呢個未落 22 實嘅,係唔係呢個? 23 楊恩健先生:呢度有兩部分,第一部分就係其實電子交FS251,將會喺好快,喺兩個月我哋 24 會用行政--因為嚟緊我哋會改法例,一定強制要入電子251,但係等唔切改法例我 25 哋覺得,我哋喺呢兩個月會出一個通函,叫所有嘅消防承辦商一定要入電子251, 26 如果你唔入,我哋係會用而家現有法例嘅紀律聆訊去處理嗰個承辦商,呢個第一, 27 我哋想即刻做咗一啲嘢去停止咗佢哋可能係遲入嘅問題。 28 第二樣嘢,我哋個電腦系統係做緊(English Spoken),咁喺我哋嗰個處 29 理呢啲cert.嘅系統,喺2.0 嘅時候,就正如姜代理處長講,第二日入咗入嚟, 30 會做一個--有gen.咗一個QR code 出嚟,呢個都係同步做緊嘅。但係最快就應 31 該一個月內出我哋會出嗰個通函,呢個亦同商會已經傾咗,我哋一定會做,一定要 32 佢哋準時入咗個電子251 畀我哋先。 33 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢一個當然牽涉到嗰個承建商自律,同埋有關承辦商嗰個規管嗰個問 34 題,咁你哋即係當然大家都同意,亦都唔需要再去糾纏埋之前嗰個唔理想嘅情況。 35 我都想問一問你嘅,就係對於嗰個業界,即係我哋見到有好多承辦商其實個行為係 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十九天

31 本謄本由Epiq 編製 明顯地係違規嘅,嗰方面個規管你都可唔可以講下,你有冇啲咩嘢做法去堵截個問 1 題?同埋我諗大家都想知道嘅就係幾快做到? 2 楊恩健先生:分開兩部分我諗,第一部分,而家我哋係做緊咩嘢,往後會做咩嘢。 3 其實過去我哋有一個扣分制度,可能大家都會知道。我哋其實喺三十萬張嘅消 4 防證書裏面,我哋係會核對六萬五千張裏面嘅資料,當中係包括咗一啲發牌處所, 5 一啲針對番承辦商,佢喺扣分制度裏面相對高分,即係check 咗好多嘢唔妥嘅, 6 我哋會針對嗰啲承辦商。另外,又係針對番嗰啲承辦商,我哋會攞--較早前討論 7 過,喺嗰六萬張裏面有幾百張張就係關於佢哋去做年檢嗰個(English 8 Spoken),呢個三百張係其中六萬幾張嘅其中一部分。咁去到第二部分嘅監管, 9 頭先講咗,我哋抽咗啲cert.出嚟,我哋係會落去做巡查,咁大約喺一萬五千宗巡 10 查呢啲消防證書,喺當中係包含有二千張喥大約係,係關於呢啲承辦商係做得唔好 11 嘅,我哋扣咗分嘅。越扣得分高嗰啲,其實我哋落去巡佢係巡得相對多嘅,因為係 12 睇住個分嚟巡幾多次嘅。仲有一個部分,就係除咗去巡佢對唔對張cert.嘅資料, 13 我哋係仲會做一啲叫做full 嘅functional test,嗰個係要需時,嗰個可能 14 要日幾時間,同事落去將成套系統去睇一次,就約個承辦商,都係針對承辦商嘅。 15 但係我相信做咗呢啲嘢都唔夠,所以往後嘅改例我哋會點呢?我哋往後嘅改 16 例,我哋會將承辦商唔入年檢、唔入證書,遲咗,或者見到一啲消防設備壞咗唔 17 報,會加重可能對於而家嘅五倍甚至十倍嘅刑法,甚至係有啲坐監嘅刑罰,呢個第 18 一。第二,我哋仲希望除咗承辦商,喺整體樓宇嗰個消防安全嘅改善就加入咗一啲 19 責任人,責任人就係包括咗啲物管公司。第三方面,我哋仲會喺承辦商面佢嘅資格 20 重新去釐定,從而有一個續牌制度,個續牌制度我哋希望佢可能喺三至至五年之間 21 要續一次牌,續牌嗰陣時會考量係咩嘢呢?就係佢有冇畀我哋告過,喺扣分制裏面 22 佢嘅分係唔係成日都係高嘅,我哋就可能會考慮呢啲咁嘅一籃子嘅因素就唔續佢 23 牌,從而令到呢啲比較差嘅承辦商就唔會做到一啲消防工程。 24 杜淦堃資深大律師:另外我都想--因為我哋唔係淨係處理大火前嘅問題,即係而家之後,我 25 哋要去委員會畀啲咩嘢建議,喺報告裏面我哋都要考慮,所以要問多你少少往後嘅 26 事。你喺你第一份證人供詞嘅第7 段,可以睇睇WS1/150 頁,你講到大火之後, 27 你哋巡查咗二百五十六個做緊大維修樓宇,發現三十八棟,即係15%嘅消防裝置係 28 有問題同埋需要處理嘅。似乎呢二百五十六棟都係一個幾大嘅數目,但係我想問下 29 你哋,係唔係呢個就係你哋去搵到全其實全香港做緊大型維修嘅樓宇定係都係當中 30 嘅一部分? 31 楊恩健先生:一部分,呢度我有少少補充可以。呢個數係當日畀口供嗰陣時個數,其實呢個 32 數係滾動嘅。 33 杜淦堃資深大律師:滾動。你哋而家做多咗嘅? 34 楊恩健先生:係,因為完咗二百幾躉之後,其實而家正如我頭先所講,我哋同屋宇署訂立咗 35 個機制,因為啲棚網嘅樓係不斷入緊畀佢哋,而家屋宇署包埋房屋署係有個定期我 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十九天

32 本謄本由Epiq 編製 哋有個會議,咁需要佢哋每兩個禮拜將啲棚網樓交畀我哋。第一樣嘢我哋而家做緊 1 嘅,就係如果發現呢啲棚網樓係有(English Spoken)情況嘅,我哋會即刻通 2 知屋宇署或者房屋署唔可以工程繼續,因為你個消防系統shutdown 咗,過去一段時 3 間有五座樓係咁嘅,我哋通知咗屋宇署即刻叫佢停工,呢個第一部分。 4 第二部分我哋而家收到呢啲棚網樓之後會有兩個方向去做嘅,第一,就係正如 5 呢一個計劃嘅伸延,就係我哋啲同事會落去巡查佢嘅消防設備,呢個係一。第二, 6 行動組就會去巡視除咗消防設備呢座樓嘅嘢,就包括我哋平時見到啲消防隱患,就 7 係阻塞走火通道或者啲防煙門(English Spoken),行動組同事仲會制訂呢個棚口嘅 8 緊急預案,當中包括咗係加入咗啲新嘅元素,佢仲要加入埋消防系統設備個運作係 9 點。甚至係如果我哋睇到宏福苑嘅經驗,如果佢附近近嘅距離有另一座樓都係有棚 10 網,佢喺應變計劃係要講埋點樣去處理,如果啲火蔓延去隔籬嗰座樓係需要點樣處 11 理。呢一個已經變咗係一個恆常滾動式有棚樓嘅而家我哋嘅做法。 12 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想問你頭先話「交棚網嘅樓」,你可唔可以解一解釋,睇下個紀錄有 13 冇錯,你嘅意思係乜嘢? 14 楊恩健先生:交棚網嘅樓就係屋宇署收到呢啲申請嗰個時候會通知消防處嘅數字,即係每兩 15 個禮拜佢會(English Spoken)我哋一次。 16 杜淦堃資深大律師:你或者講唔講到畀我哋聽,你嘅理解就係到目前為止,你哋當日就巡查 17 二百五十六個進行大維修嘅樓宇,到而家進行咗嗰個...112808 18 楊恩健先生:應該而家大約係六百幾棟,可以補番啲數位畀你哋。而家應該係六百多棟,我 19 哋手頭上。 20 杜淦堃資深大律師:而呢個工作係會繼續嘅? 21 楊恩健先生:冇錯。 22 杜淦堃資深大律師:另外我都想你哋--或者呢個有關最新嘅數字我諗我哋都稍後會同消防處 23 攞番。我想都同你探討嗰個防設施關閉嗰個問題,因為呢個我哋知道都係造成好大 24 嘅問題。你喺你第一份證人供詞嘅24.1 段係咁講,你講到就會有改善可能相關嘅 25 措施,將通知變做申請,呢個之前翁助理處長都講過--姜Sir 有講過。你有冇-- 26 可唔可以解釋一下而家嗰個去到邊個階段同埋你哋會做嗰個措施係點? 27 楊恩健先生:我可以解釋下有兩方面。改例方面,我哋已經草擬緊法例,希望--我哋其實5 28 月頭就會上立法會做諮詢,希望喺今年裏面完成,就係加入一啲條文需要佢停呢個 29 消防設備,即係入呢個通知書嗰陣時,通知我哋係需要審批,審批意思我哋要詳盡 30 理解到佢呢一個停嘅消防設備有冇需要,同埋佢有冇已經擺好咗一啲替代措施喺個 31 樓宇方面,我哋會做一個審批嘅情況。但係頭先我講過,我哋唔會等法例完成先做 32 呢啲工作,我哋其實已經今天開始咗所有SDN 入嚟,已經同事係用一個審批嘅方法 33 去詢問相關第二日法例用咗之後嘅資料,希望堵塞咗一啲不需要嘅SDN。從而--我 34 頭先講,我哋寬限佢,如果真係有需要最多係六十日裏面要完成,如果唔完成我哋 35 會發出消除火警危險通知書,係兩部分。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十九天

33 本謄本由Epiq 編製 杜淦堃資深大律師:另外有一個問題喺本案係好明顯嘅,就係入咗個SDN,有同事會落去巡 1 查睇下有關嘅情況係點,我哋見到今次大火有個情況,就係佢將嗰個消防栓同埋喉 2 轆系統就(English Spoken)咗,有同事落過去就睇下啲替補嘅措施,譬如個 3 滅火筒有冇擺,但係其實相關嘅同事可能係冇檢視一下其實個系統本身點解 4 (English Spoken),嗰個理由係唔係真係承建商報嗰一個,或者有冇望過下 5 其他嘅系統有冇問題,因為我諗你可以理解,就係如果佢哋去睇過譬如個火警警報 6 系統有冇問題,今次可能會有啲唔同嘅結果。就呢一方面,第一,我想問一問你嘅 7 立場同埋之後會係點樣樣? 8 楊恩健先生:首先就係之前發生嘅就係可能姜世明助理處長都有提及喺個政策上,同事係最 9 主要係睇嗰個替代措施,同埋係確信嗰個消防承辦商去報佢(English 10 Spoken)嘅嘢,但係我哋見到有個漏洞喺度。但係頭先所講,配合嗰個新嘅SDN 11 嘅做法,我哋而家係需要同事落到去現場除咗睇替代措施之外,係會檢查埋等特別 12 兩個系統,第一個消防栓/喉轆系統同埋嗰個扲手嗰個系統嘅電源,同埋個水缸嘅 13 情況,而家係做緊,已經開始咗做。 14 杜淦堃資深大律師:你哋當然去睇番其他嘅措施有冇問題嘅時候,你哋其中有個--即係當然 15 可以睇到個問題就係佢哋報上嚟嘅情況同埋個實際情況有冇分別。我哋用番你哋而 16 家做過或者之前我哋證人供詞睇到嗰二百五十六單為例,可唔可以都講到畀我哋 17 聽,你哋話15%樓宇發現有一啲消防裝置出現咗問題,當中其實呢啲問題係唔係大 18 部分啲承辦商都係冇報過上嚟,定係只不過係報上嚟係唔準確,可唔可以亦都解釋 19 畀我哋聽係點?因為呢個同我哋能唔能夠相信啲承辦商係有關係。 20 楊恩健先生:當中係有啲部分係去落到現場我哋check 到,但係亦有佢已經報咗嘅,喺 21 251 裏面報咗佢壞嘅,兩樣都有嘅其實。我哋(English Spoken)到出嚟,就 22 其實都係採取咗啲執法行動。 23 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係唔係話搵到15%完全唔知道嘅問題,... 24 楊恩健先生:唔係,唔係。 25 杜淦堃資深大律師:...只不過15%嘅樓宇似係個火警警報系統或者有關嘅措施係出現咗問 26 題,而當中包含咗有啲有報過,有啲冇報過嘅? 27 楊恩健先生:係,冇錯。 28 杜淦堃資深大律師:另外就係關閉嗰個時間嘅問題,我哋知道有一個講法,就係其實你哋遇 29 到個困難就係點解執法比較慢之前,就係因為有其他嘅更大問題要處理,例如就係 30 有好多大廈其實根本上係個系統關咗,但係冇消防承辦商去接手嘅,即係有啲舊 31 樓,就我諗我嘅理解就係冇人理,有一啲接咗手嘅,佢畀人炒咗,咁就亦都冇人 32 理,即係似乎過往嗰個執法嘅重點就去咗嗰一度,但係衍生嘅問題就係我聽,如果 33 我哋理解個問題冇錯,係一個資源不足嘅問題,係咪?就呢方面之前。 34 楊恩健先生:冇錯,正如頭先你所講,我哋以前嗰個資源集中主要就擺咗喺佢冇做年檢,因 35 為我哋發現佢年檢都唔做,套系統可能未必用到,所以就投入咗好多資源去搵。其 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十九天

34 本謄本由Epiq 編製 實我哋2023 年開始有個計劃,就係將十八區我哋搵咗一啲目標嘅樓宇去睇佢哋嗰 1 個年檢嘅狀況,每個區大約有四百棟,四百棟裏面我哋發覺有22%嘅樓冇做年檢, 2 所以喺2025 年即係個(English Spoken)繼續行落去,我哋告咗一千五百多 3 棟樓佢冇做年檢。 4 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想問你另外一個問題,就係姜世明助理處長講過,佢話其實大部分嘅 5 情況你而家個shutdown notice 叫人每十四日就申請一次,但係佢哋見到其實 6 大部分嘅case 都十四日做唔完,即係所以其實申請延期好似一個好慣常嘅事,就 7 呢一方面其實你哋有冇啲咩嘢睇法?即係如果都知道十四日就做完嘅,我哋叫人每 8 十四日入一次申請,亦都可能係一個問題衍生咗。就呢一方面你哋有冇任何措施去 9 檢討或者跟進? 10 楊恩健先生:我覺得十四日佢去做延期有咁嘅需要,因為正如頭先杜大狀都有講過,就係我 11 哋有一個擔心,就係驚佢可能某啲原因個消防承辦商唔幫佢做,如果咁佢報咗入 12 嚟,跟住佢又走咗,就變咗座樓直情係冇人監管,所以我哋寧願密啲去監管佢,佢 13 入咗嚟,即係證明有人做緊,正如我頭先所講,我哋見到有啲樓--即係一年裏面我 14 告咗千幾棟樓直情係冇做年檢添,佢連承辦商都冇請。 15 杜淦堃資深大律師:我諗有個問題就係你嘅同事講到,如果整個水缸一年都係不足為期嘅, 16 十四日去做一個申請,呢一個做法你哋有冇咩嘢睇法或者需唔需要檢討,定係其實 17 根本上就係唔應該做咁耐? 18 楊恩健先生:水缸我聽過同事同埋商會匯報係需要時間,可能未必去到咁長,但係係需要一 19 啲月份嘅時間,因為牽涉個工程費用,可能需要一啲做(English Spoken)嘅 20 時間,需要業主立案法團開會嘅時間去審批。咁至於頭先,講番個水缸做得長與短 21 同佢批嗰十四日,我都係覺得比較安全啲,我哋能夠確信佢報得密啲畀我哋,因為 22 個制度上我哋而家唔係報喇,我哋係... 23 杜淦堃資深大律師:申請。 24 楊恩健先生:...審批形式,即係背後就係希望你每次十四日你話畀知嗰陣時,我問你問得 25 多啲,你而家係做到咩嘢地步,你可唔可以畀證供我,所以我寧願喺一個安全方 26 面,即係靠嗰邊多啲,就因為其實個承辦商都係一個責任嚟㗎嘛,你反而放鬆畀 27 佢,你做水缸我畀你長啲報,反而對個安全性可能會有降低。 28 杜淦堃資深大律師:好,另外我都想你協助我哋嘅,就係之前探討過一個題目,但係可能有 29 更加多嘅資料補充會幫到我哋工作。火災當日嗰個999 電話嘅處理方法,明顯地, 30 我諗而家睇番轉頭,處理大型事故嘅時候,消防處嗰三十條線,大家都會覺得唔足 31 夠,呢個我相信你哋都同意,所以加咗,係咪? 32 楊恩健先生:冇錯。 33 杜淦堃資深大律師:因為我哋睇番,正如我頭先都提過嘉利大廈大火嘅時候,遇到同樣嘅問 34 題,當時個社會環境唔同,亦都嗰個規模都唔係今次咁大嘅,喺二十分鐘內收到三 35 十個999 電話嘅當時,而家聽番就唔算多,因為而家過咗咁多年。但係當時個獨立 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十九天

35 本謄本由Epiq 編製 委員會其實亦都係有一個建議,我想睇下你都可唔可以再補充一下。 1 你睇下A4/229 頁,當時就講得好清楚話“(English Spoken)"(「消 2 防處同警方應該增加就係直線嘅999 嗰個線,並且就係一齊合作嚟到設計一個更好 3 嘅處理方法。」其實係得六條線,而家就去到三十條。我哋知道喺聽證會舉行嘅途 4 中,保安局局長喺立法會財委會嘅特別會議裏面提到,你哋會準備推出第四代嘅系 5 統,消防處個電話遲啲會增加到一百條線。我哋睇咗消防處交畀立法會嘅文件,其 6 實消防處你哋似乎喺2017 年嗰陣已經提出過要更換到去第四代系統,嗰陣時個計 7 劃係2022 年就落成,去預計嗰陣其實第三代系統已經去到極限,但係似乎當時個 8 期望就落空咗。我都想問一問番你呢個情況,據你嘅理解點解會發生?我相信消防 9 處唔會覺得多啲資源或者快啲有呢個系統係一件壞事嚟。 10 楊恩健先生:呢個認同。講番個第四代嘅發展,其實我哋中間係遇到疫情,遇到黑暴嘅情 11 況,個(English Spoken )係延遲咗中間有啲付運嘅嘢,所以係褪咗一段時 12 間,其實裏面有二十四個子系統,其實大致都完成,而家係進入緊一個測試同埋訓 13 練階段。其實喺中間我哋都係用咗好多時間去催促個(English Spoken)去完 14 成嗰啲工作,絕對認同嘅,我哋越早用到呢個系統係越好。 15 杜淦堃資深大律師:另外有個痛點,就係我哋聽番今次火警有關嘅紀錄,就係由999 轉去你 16 哋消防同事嗰個交接嘅問題,你都聽過聽證會上高講過重複資料,斷咗線,或者一 17 啲溝通問題,第四代嘅調派系統會唔會解決到呢一啲嘅問題,或者可唔可以都解釋 18 到我哋聽? 19 楊恩健先生:我諗嗰個重複問問題,斷咗線嗰啲未必--斷線有機會係一啲技術問題,但係重 20 複問問題嗰啲係一啲溝通問題,我哋其實會同警隊方面再深入探討,喺交接線嗰度 21 點樣可以做好啲,縮短嗰個重複問問題嗰個時間,我諗係一個行政措施嘅問題,呢 22 個我哋都著手做緊。 23 杜淦堃資深大律師:另外亦都係資源同埋技術嘅問題,我哋見到從前幾日黃思律,你嘅同事 24 嘅口供裏面,佢講到消防員睇唔到接線員嗰個CMS 寫咗嘅求助個案,你哋用咗-- 25 其實個溝通好多時係用咗你哋嗰個(English Spoken)去... 26 楊恩健先生:(English Spoken) 27 杜淦堃資深大律師:(English Spoken)咗張相,我問過佢,我話變咗就好似--如果當 28 日睇番紀錄,你好似我哋用WhatsApp 收到六百張相咁樣樣,其實我諗呢一個好邏 29 輯性嘅問題,其實如果遇到大型事故嘅時候好難睇,有關嘅系統會唔會處理到呢啲 30 你哋前線同埋指揮中心嘅溝通問題,嗰度有冇得優化呢?因為我諗聽番前線救火嘅 31 同事個溝通對佢哋造成障礙。 32 楊恩健先生:你系統係講緊新系統或者? 33 杜淦堃資深大律師:新系統有冇處理過呢啲問題? 34 楊恩健先生:新系統有處理過呢個問題,新系統裏面會有一個我哋叫PD 嘅嘢,(English 35 Spoken),係每個指揮同事係揸住,好似一啲類似手掌嘅嘢,係即時可以將呢啲 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十九天

36 本謄本由Epiq 編製 資訊可以傳畀佢哋。 1 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係用咗個硬件嘅方法去處理呢個問題? 2 楊恩健先生:係。 3 杜淦堃資深大律師:當然詳細我哋未見到嗰個系統,我哋講唔到。另外,當日另外一個痛點 4 係有三百個重複個案,呢個明顯地係浪費咗一啲同事嘅時間,同埋佢哋可以處理其 5 他問題嗰個空間,呢個喺系統嘅提升上高會唔會有嘢可以做到? 6 楊恩健先生:呢個我哋會研究,但係可能都要小心啲處理,因為重複嘅電話,如果可能一個 7 重複嘅位址,可能有唔同嘅人報嗰啲地址報返嚟,我哋貿貿然用一啲可能而家比較 8 常用AI 去(English Spoken)出嚟,可能個效果--即係個風險評估就係如果 9 你以為佢係重疊,跟住(English Spoken)咗出嚟,原來如果佢唔係嘅,就變 10 咗可能有人待救,可能會遲咗,所以呢度我哋會研究,睇下用AI 會唔會以做到, 11 但係呢個我相信係要好小心。 12 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白。主席,我會去到其他嘅範疇,我唔預計下午會好長,但係相信可 13 以用午飯嘅時間去睇一睇我哋仲有幾多問題問處長。 14 陸啟康法官:咁又要麻煩我哋就要下晝再返嚟,我哋到2 點15 分繼續。 15

16 12 時45 分聆訊押後 17 14 時15 分聆訊恢復 18

19 陸啟康法官:請繼續吖,杜大律師。 20 杜淦堃資深大律師:主席,處長,淨係有兩方面我想你幫一幫我哋,我都唔想花你太多時 21 間。第一就係我相信你會明白,對於你前線嘅同事當日去救火同埋救番好多居民, 22 其實好多宏福苑嘅居民係非常感謝你哋。我哋喺聽證會嘅途中,其實居民係會不斷 23 咁將啲信息發畀聽證會嘅代表,而喺呢方面我諗無可置疑,佢哋係好感謝你哋。但 24 係的的確確係有好多居民想表達嘅係對於佢哋嘅投訴,包括物料、消防設施、工地 25 安全未有有效咁跟進,而呢啲當然對今次火警嘅成因係有好大嘅關係,佢哋到今日 26 仍然係非常之不滿。我希望各個政府部門都明白,特別其實琴日我哋收到一位聽證 27 會畀過口供嘅葉家駒先生,你知道佢太太喺大火裏面喪生。我哋收到佢嘅郵件,對 28 於之前部門啲處理方法,當然佢哋有佢哋唔滿意嘅地方,而佢哋亦都對於有關嘅監 29 管系統似乎失效係感到失望。所以我想表達嘅就係我哋唔能夠,亦都唔會將所有居 30 民嘅訴求可以喺聽證會度全面咁樣去每一封咁讀出嚟。但係呢個引伸到我想同你探 31 討嘅就係,其實喺法例底下,各個部門就佢哋喺條例下嗰個職責,個正確理解,無 32 論對於我哋睇番大火之前發生嘅事,同埋我哋之後點樣去檢討之後嘅改善工作係非 33 常重要,所以我只係想麻煩你睇下我哋咁樣去理解啱唔啱?似乎喺有關條例底下 34 呢,好清楚,有好多範疇多過一個政府部門都有佢嘅角色嘅。 35 如果我哋好簡單咁就咁去睇番我今朝同你睇過嗰件案例,只係有兩段我想同你 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十九天

37 本謄本由Epiq 編製 探討,喺A5 文件夾嗰度,如果我哋睇52 段,呢度咁講嘅“ (English 1 Spoken)”(《消防條例》同埋《消防(消除火警危險)規例》同埋其他嘅法例就 2 冇講到任何關於消防安全規例係同工程或者係呢一個消防裝置設備以外嘅事淨係房 3 屋--淨係呢一個建築署--淨係呢一個嘅屋宇署負責㗎。咁而一啲事項係消防法例規 4 管,亦同時由呢一個屋宇署負責喇,其實就係唔代表局長就係唔可以行使佢嘅權力 5 㗎。但係從一個消防安全角度嚟睇,屋宇署咁唔單止就係佢哋有佢哋專業知識,譬 6 如就係講關於話係有啲乜嘢嘢係會影響佢哋進行呢一個保障安全)。我諗嗰個精髓 7 就係呢,去睇防火嘅事情,可能有啲範疇,第二啲部門嘅同事唔會有你哋嘅同事嗰 8 個專業知識,或者佢哋未必會睇到你哋見到嗰個火警風險,我相信呢個大家都同 9 意,係咪? 10 楊恩健先生:同意。 11 杜淦堃資深大律師:而嗰個法例嘅設計,我哋睇下之後嗰頁嘅54(1)段,嗰度引述咗喺番 12 1971 年當時嘅勞工處處長郟亮同先生佢喺立法會咁樣去解釋嘅,你見到呢度引述 13 咗佢講話,佢話(English Spoken )(消防處處長佢係有法例之下賦予佢權 14 力,包括《消防安全條例》以及《危險品條例》,佢係要去到採取行動,去到減低 15 一啲處所入面嘅消防嘅風險。而同樣地,喺勞工處嘅人員以及係消防處嘅人員,佢 16 哋係要各自去到通知番大家佢哋各自採取咗啲乜嘢嘅行動,呢兩個獨立嘅執法機構 17 係需要去到密切咁樣監察住喺嗰啲嘅工廠嗰度有啲乜嘢嘅情況係轉變咗,以及喺嗰 18 啲工廈嘅情況係有啲乜嘢嘅轉變咗。)當然佢講緊嗰個情況有少少唔同,因為講緊 19 係一啲--第二啲嘅處所,但似乎法例嘅設計的的確確係可能有兩個部門就同一個範 20 疇,亦都多過一條法例去規管嘅。所以我哋大家我諗都同意就係部門之間嘅溝通當 21 然係非常之緊要,呢個我諗你今朝都同意亦都有設施去做。我想你幫一幫我哋嘅就 22 係,大家我諗都知道火警之前,就譬如生口或者發泡膠個問題,而家我哋確認咗大 23 家都有權去處理,即係消防同埋BD,個權力都係有嘅,呢個你今朝確認咗嘞? 24 楊恩健先生:唔。 25 杜淦堃資深大律師:你亦都確認咗你哋係可以出(English Spoken)嘅,如果喺適當情 26 況之下,不過我哋都明白你嘅證供就係,你出(English Spoken)之前,你可 27 能要問下BD「喂,其實應該點做?或者有冇第二啲方法做到?」但係呢個並唔等於 28 你哋係唔可以或者唔應該去出個(English Spoken ),我相信你都同意,係 29 咪? 30 楊恩健先生:應該會係咁講,頭先牽涉咗屋宇署部分,頭先你都講咗一個重點就係「應唔應 31 該咁做?」。 32 杜淦堃資深大律師:係。 33 楊恩健先生:或者有冇其他(English Spoken),咁牽涉咗之後,就係影響到我哋出呢 34 個(English Spoken)。 35 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十九天

38 本謄本由Epiq 編製 楊恩健先生:所以係有一個(English Spoken)嘅關係,即係唔可以貿貿然... 1 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白。 2 楊恩健先生:...可以出一張(English Spoken )去叫佢(English Spoken)個玻 3 璃,一定要得到屋宇署... 4 杜淦堃資深大律師:絕對明白。 5 楊恩健先生:係嘞。 6 杜淦堃資深大律師:你個講法,其實你都講得好清楚,譬如點樣去令佢做番一個,第一,符 7 合你哋嘅要求,第二,亦都可能符合一啲BD 嘅要求,呢個你哋部門之間,如果講 8 得俗啲,你哋兩個自己要搞掂佢。 9 楊恩健先生:冇錯。呢個嚟緊都會--正如頭先裏面有提及嘅屋宇署同事可能冇咗一啲我哋對 10 於救火過程面對嘅困難,正如我頭先嗰度有講到嘅,呢啲佢哋冇嘅,我哋會將呢啲 11 意見畀埋佢,跟住去綜合咗呢樣睇下用邊種方法執行比較好。 12 杜淦堃資深大律師:所以個講法應該係咁,正確嘅理解係咪咁呢?唔應該講呢啲事情唔喺你 13 哋嘅職權範圍裏面,只不過你哋要考慮點去處理呢啲事情嘅時候,唔係淨係你哋嘅 14 責任,第二啲部門要同你哋一齊處理,咁樣理解啱唔啱? 15 楊恩健先生:大致可以咁講。我會演繹為正如迷你倉呢個事件裏面,我哋最終都係整體個消 16 防安全唔係一個部門,唔係兩個部門,牽涉咗部門同部門之間嘅協調溝通去互補一 17 啲不足嘅地方。正如我頭先所講,我哋可能唔太理解個窗係咪可以用其他方法或者 18 有啲結構嘅問題,我哋應該係唔太理解嘅。但係屋宇署嘅同事亦唔理解如果真係火 19 警嗰陣時候,佢換一個合佢哋規格嘅窗,可能對於救火有冇影響,咁應該係用呢一 20 個演繹。 21 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白。所以譬如我哋睇到嗰段勞工處處長講嘅說話就係多過一個部門去 22 (English Spoken),睇住有關嘅情況係好緊要。即係如果講得白少少或者俚 23 俗少少,其實應該四隻眼去睇住佢,兩個部門都有責任,可唔可以咁講? 24 楊恩健先生:唔。 25 杜淦堃資深大律師:你都提到分工,我諗個分工嘅正確嘅理解,如果就住我哋用番生口同埋 26 呢個發泡膠嚟講,個正確理解可唔可以係咁呢?無論喺大火前、大火後,你哋個責 27 任個正確理解就係唔應該係就咁轉介,你哋都要跟進,因為你哋都有責任一齊去處 28 理其實,咁樣講啱唔啱? 29 楊恩健先生:喺大火前我哋冇見過生口,就冇作轉介,喺大火後,反而我哋覺得經歷咗個大 30 火,我哋覺得如果除咗做轉介,可能係唔足夠。 31 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔,咁發泡膠嘅問題呢? 32 楊恩健先生:至於發泡膠個問題,我諗相類似嘅就係因為其實發泡膠同--可能你糾正我,我 33 唔知可唔可以咁演繹?發泡膠同個窗個問題有啲相類似嘅,就係本身屋宇署有啲規 34 定喺度嘅。 35 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十九天

39 本謄本由Epiq 編製 楊恩健先生:我哋又唔可以純用(English Spoken)去即刻執法,同窗嗰個相類似,因 1 為發泡膠有非阻燃,反而我哋係冇去顧及到BD 講個遮光問題,所以都係一個整合 2 式去睇件事應該。因為正如頭先你所講或者剛才迷你倉嗰個,真係要大家搦咗個議 3 題出嚟,我哋見到呢件事出嚟要互補不足嘅地方。 4 杜淦堃資深大律師:而頭先你都講到,基於有啲火警風險,其他部門亦都可能冇你哋咁清楚 5 去偵測嗰啲火警風險,例如去有關嘅大廈去做一啲嘅巡查,呢一個佢哋取代唔到你 6 哋嘅工作,即係無論你係講緊樓宇結構一部分又好,講緊嘅係一啲被動嘅消防裝置 7 又好,你哋睇到嘅嘢BD 同埋其他部門未必會見到,因為你哋先係防火同滅火嘅專 8 家,可唔可以咁講? 9 楊恩健先生:應該係兩邊都有大家嘅專家,我覺得。 10 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,明白。 11 楊恩健先生:因為可能講到一啲被動式嘅防火設計呢,我哋對於嗰個標準要求,或者個理念 12 背後,其實認識唔太深入,所以我覺得大家都有大家嘅專業去分析整體個樓宇消防 13 安全。 14 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白,我諗... 15 楊恩健先生:主動係其中一樣我哋,但係其他嗰啲嘢我哋都會睇。 16 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係如果就咁一個好籠統嘅講法,就話發泡膠呢樣嘢就唔係喺你哋嘅職 17 權範圍裏面,如果就咁咁講,呢個解釋唔到你哋嘅責任,亦都係未必準確嘅,同唔 18 同意? 19 楊恩健先生:唔,同意。 20 杜淦堃資深大律師:我明白另外一部分就係去睇番之前嘅問題,我諗好多都係涉及一啲資源 21 嘅問題,即係好似我哋睇到處理嗰啲FS251、(English Spoken),甚至乎巡 22 查嗰個優次,你哋做執法,其實全部都係涉及一啲資源嘅問題,當然如果有多啲資 23 源去做,你哋嘅工作當然係可以做得好啲,係咪咁? 24 楊恩健先生:冇錯。 25 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係到最後,我諗我哋大家都同意就喺FSO 第7 條裏面嘅責任,消防火 26 警一般嘅把關嘅工作到最後都係--把關嘅人都係消防處,當然你要其他部門嘅配 27 合,要徵詢佢哋。 28 楊恩健先生:冇錯。 29 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係最終嘅責任一定係喺消防處嗰度,我哋唔能夠排除所有嘅火警發 30 生,即係世界上冇地方做到。但係相信你會同意嘅就係喺同其他部門諮詢過之後, 31 點樣去執法,點樣去消除個火警風險,呢一個係你哋要處理嘅職責? 32 楊恩健先生:冇錯。 33 杜淦堃資深大律師:多謝你,處長。 34 陸啟康法官:係,請。 35 林樂夫大律師:主席,Victory Fire 有少少問題想問處長嘅,係。你好,處長,咁就想 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十九天

40 本謄本由Epiq 編製 同你睇一睇關於中期呢,26 年開始有啲新嘅措施係睇SDN 嘅,就你第一份證人口 1 供,WS/1 嘅154 頁第16 段嘅,我哋見到個標題,可以睇埋個少少標題喇,叫 2 (English Spoken),就係講26 年有個中期嘅一啲措施,係咪? 3 楊恩健先生:唔。 4 林樂夫大律師:咁即係除咗啱啱較早前你提過係巡查已經做緊大維修嘅樓宇,仲有另外消防 5 處會有啲新措施做緊,係咪? 6 楊恩健先生:唔,冇錯。 7 林樂夫大律師:呢度我哋去睇下就係第五句,咁一個1 嘅小點喇,就係關於如果係收到任何 8 嘅壞咗警鐘或者係消防栓嘅通知或者係SDN 嘅通知呢,你就會去--消防處就會去 9 做兩樣嘢嘅,嗰兩樣嘢就喺第二句同第三句睇,就係話你會去巡查喇,跟住仲有就 10 係做一個功能嘅測試,係咪? 11 楊恩健先生:唔。 12 林樂夫大律師:個重點就係喺最後嗰兩句睇嘞,就係睇下嗰個嘅警鐘係唔係正常運作,係 13 咪? 14 楊恩健先生:冇錯。 15 林樂夫大律師:其實呢一個嘅新--新措施嚟㗎嘛呢個,係咪? 16 楊恩健先生:係。 17 林樂夫大律師:咁呢個新措施其實個目的係咪針對呢,其中一個就係入咗消防栓嘅SDN 嘞, 18 睇下有冇影響另一個系統,尤其係警鐘系統,係咪? 19 楊恩健先生:喺呢一個計畫裏面,唔係。呢個... 20 林樂夫大律師:但係其中一個嘅考慮,係咪? 21 楊恩健先生:呢個計劃其實你睇到就係千五座樓係我哋短時間篩選出嚟,篩選出嚟係包含唔 22 晒所有樓。 23 林樂夫大律師:係。 24 楊恩健先生:我哋係抽咗出嚟去--千五座,1987 裏面之後嘅樓,係希望去測試裏面嗰啲警 25 鐘。咁至於頭先你講嗰個SDN,如果我哋而家收到之後,會點做,係另外一個計 26 劃,我哋而家做緊,其實簽嗰個完成咗,簽嗰個用兩個月完成咗,我哋而家係做緊 27 喺呢兩年睇緊五千座呢啲咁嘅一個範圍嘅樓,去測試裏面嘅警鐘,係關於有啲之前 28 可能佢報過壞,有入過SDN,可能整番好,或者係針對一啲比較高分,比較唔理想 29 嘅消防(English Spoken)。 30 林樂夫大律師:因為我照咁睇你證人口供第16 段,其實其中一個情況就係你收到 31 (English Spoken)吖嘛,即係其中一個情況就係有人--消防承辦商入咗一個 32 SDN,係閂咗個消防栓系統,跟住你會去主動去睇一睇係嗰個警鐘係咪運作到,係 33 咪? 34 楊恩健先生:而家個新架構裏面都係會咁,會睇個警鐘同埋個(English Spoken)個電 35 掣有冇閂到。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十九天

41 本謄本由Epiq 編製 林樂夫大律師:明白。咁好明顯就因為宏福苑嘅事件,跟住你哋就有個咁嘅新措施,係咪? 1 楊恩健先生:冇錯。 2 林樂夫大律師:咁而喺2026 年1 月之前,其實消防處其實都依賴入SDN 嗰個消防承辦 3 商,就話畀消防處聽,咁係影響一個定係兩個系統,係咪? 4 楊恩健先生:冇錯。 5 林樂夫大律師:咁我哋再--因為啱啱你都提過有大維修呢個事件,咁即係個檢查,咁你都知 6 其實喺大維修嘅情況底下,嗰個嘅業主會請一個大維修嘅總承辦商,下面可能有另 7 一個嘅關於大維修嘅消防承辦商㗎嘛,係咪? 8 楊恩健先生:冇錯。 9 林樂夫大律師:咁另外又有年檢,或者年執修嘅消防承辦商㗎嘛,係咪?咁即係會多過一個 10 嘅消防承辦商嘅,你都知有咁嘅情況嘅,係咪? 11 楊恩健先生:應該咁講,做年檢嗰個承辦商,其實佢做完年檢已經係完成佢嘅工作,即係佢 12 哋嘅合約已經完咗,至於大維修佢係咪真係次次都會搵個消防承辦商去睇佢座樓嘅 13 消防設備,呢個可能唔係個個case 都係咁。 14 林樂夫大律師:係,明白。係,所以變咗咪即係會有情況係,喺大維修期間會有兩個甚至更 15 多嘅消防註冊承辦商喺同一個屋苑或者大廈度做嘢,係咪? 16 楊恩健先生:有呢個可能。 17 林樂夫大律師:係,其實因為我哋見到嗰個嘅--你嘅新嘅措施而家,其實你就係唔靠入SDN 18 嗰個嘅消防承辦商,就係消防處自己走去主動去查下究竟入SDN 入得啱唔啱,影響 19 幾多個系統㗎嘛,係咪? 20 楊恩健先生:應該係咁講,應該係佢入SDN 嗰時,我哋要確立佢有冇需要入SDN 先。 21 林樂夫大律師:但係嗰個係未來再... 22 楊恩健先生:而家做緊。 23 林樂夫大律師:而家都做緊,係咪?即係新措施嚟㗎嘛,呢個,係咪? 24 楊恩健先生:係。 25 林樂夫大律師:係,即係新措施,就係你而家做一個主動式,首先去批核,跟住就再睇下佢 26 係咪需要,同埋係咪真係閂得啱嗰啲系統,係咪? 27 楊恩健先生:冇錯。 28 林樂夫大律師:即係話其實從來消防處,即係尤其是係2026 年之前,其實冇要求過即係一 29 間消防承辦商,好似年檢執修嘅承辦商,係去監察另一個即係例如大維修嘅消防承 30 辦商,究竟佢入SDN 入得啱唔啱,閂個系統啱唔啱㗎嘛,你冇要求㗎嘛,係咪? 31 楊恩健先生:我哋嘅通函裏面有要求過消防承辦商發現咗,個大廈嘅消防系統如果有損壞, 32 有不當嘅地方,要向我哋匯報。 33 林樂夫大律師:咁亦都其實消防處從來就冇特別諗過係依賴一個註冊消防承辦商,例如係年 34 檢嘅執修嘅承辦商,係去通知消防處有關於另一個好似大維修消防承辦商咁,係佢 35 入SDN 入得啱唔啱咁樣嘅,即係你從來消防處都冇諗過倚賴年檢嘅執修承辦商,係 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十九天

42 本謄本由Epiq 編製 咪? 1 楊恩健先生:要解釋清楚你個問題就係,因為個消防承辦商應該唔知道另外嗰個消防承辦商 2 入嗰個SDN 嘅內容,最主要就係佢發現咗,佢做維修嗰時佢發現咗消防系統有問 3 題,佢就應該要向我哋報,呢個係佢作為一個註冊消防承辦商嘅責任。 4 林樂夫大律師:明白,即係獨立嘅責任,你嘅意思。 5 楊恩健先生:係。 6 林樂夫大律師:但係喺--啱啱我哋都討論,即係我最後一個問題,就係有兩個或者多過兩個 7 嘅註冊消防承辦商喺同一個屋苑、同一個大廈做嘢嘅時候,其實喺2026 年之前嗰 8 啲機制係冇一個協調嘅機制,係等佢哋兩個或者多過兩個係知道大家做啲乜嘢嘅, 9 係咪? 10 楊恩健先生:應該係佢哋自己嘅專業裏面,佢有個專業嘅責任,頭先我講,去講番佢見到個 11 消防系統嘅問題。 12 林樂夫大律師:明白,我問題係咁多,唔該晒。 13 陸啟康法官:係,仲有後面。你係代表? 14 楊志聰大律師:置邦物業管理公司。 15 處長,我有一個範疇嘅問題,希望你可以協助。麻煩你望一望你嘅證人供詞第 16 10 段,即係151 頁。係,呢度開始。咁呢一段落應該就係講到你喺大火之後,就 17 同物業管理行業有啲代表有啲嘅溝通,咁麻煩你望一望,咁我之後會有少少問題問 18 你。 19 陸啟康法官:掃落去,係咪? 20 楊志聰大律師:仲有少少嘅,嗄。係,咁你見到你第10 段尾部嘅右手面有一個參考嘅,咁 21 嗰個參考其實就係物業管理監管局嘅一個通函嚟嘅,咁應該係2025 年12 月10 22 號發出嘅一個通函嚟嘅,咁因為你參考咗呢一份通函,咁你應該都睇過呢一個通函 23 嘅,係咪?或者我哋可以顯示出嚟,應該就係D2 文件冊/1333 頁嘅,係,呢一份 24 通函,你係有睇過呢份通函? 25 楊恩健先生:冇錯。 26 楊志聰大律師:其實呢一份通函應該係你同監管局一齊去磋商完之後發出嘅一個通函嚟,係 27 咪?因為你譬如見到第一段,佢就係話「監管局喺消防處嘅專業協助之下,特此致 28 函提示咁多位持份者嘅」,咁應該係消防處同監管局磋商完之後先發出嘅一個通函 29 嚟,係咪? 30 楊恩健先生:應該係。 31 楊志聰大律師:唔,所以消防處都應該同意呢個通函入面嘅內容? 32 楊恩健先生:應該係。 33 楊志聰大律師:係,咁我其實就住呢份通函,係有一個方面係想請教處長嘅。麻煩你望一望 34 第二個部分,係,第二部分。咁我哋參考第二部分嘅呢一個指引,其實就應該係當 35 時監管局就希望唔同嘅物業管理公司就檢視同埋關注消防承辦商有冇根據相關嘅條 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十九天

43 本謄本由Epiq 編製 例去進行檢查、測試同埋保養,要--而係要求管理公司去做唔同嘅項目嘅,譬如就 1 係以上列點嗰三個項目,如果發現咗有任何異常同埋故障,就需要通知消防承辦商 2 同埋業主,或者業主組織嘅。所以其實呢一個部分講嘅應該就係通函要求物業管理 3 公司去對於啲消防裝置做檢查,係咪? 4 楊恩健先生:檢查,可唔可以解釋下個內容? 5 楊志聰大律師:就係嗰三點,譬如火警警報系統就係要確認手動火警鐘掣完好無損,要做測 6 試。跟住消防系統電源就要確保供電穩定,後備電源系統運作可靠,同埋控制板信 7 號就要檢查所有信號傳輸正常。 8 楊恩健先生:應該簡單嚟講,呢個唔屬於一個檢查,我會演繹為係一個目測嘅嘢。 9 楊志聰大律師:目測好難檢查,即係好難知道供電... 10 楊恩健先生:你睇番個(English Spoken)個手動警報器有冇損壞,睇下有冇爛到,即 11 係一個扲手有冇爛,我哋--因為法例其實有講咗,修補檢裝消防設備係要消防註冊 12 承辦商嘅,我哋唔會叫個物管公司去做一啲剛才你講嗰個叫做檢查,我哋--呢個裏 13 面個解釋係講緊係只係一個目測,如果你見到,你就要--爛咗個扲手,你就要搵消 14 防承辦商。 15 電源方面我哋跟嗰個(English Spoken),其實喺1 月6 號出嗰個已經講 16 到明,電源其實最主要都係靠物管公司睇嗰個封條,我哋而家加咗個封條落去。咁 17 至於個控制板,其實個控制板其實不嬲呢啲控制板其實未必喺一啲泵房嘅,其實我 18 哋講緊嘅控制板係喺一啲保安室裏面,係有--我哋叫(English Spoken)會睇 19 嗰啲燈係咪著咗啲(English Spoken),或者係唔著,係純粹有一個平時啲管 20 理員都會睇到呢啲咁嘅嘢。 21 楊志聰大律師:係,因為其實我哋之所以有少少疑惑,就係因為就咁睇呢一個嘅指引,其實 22 就會有少少模糊,就係究竟其實物業管理公司要做嘅係乜嘢?因為正如處長頭先都 23 提到,其實第7 條,即係第95(b)章嘅第7 條其實就講到明,非消防承辦商其實 24 係唔可以做檢查嘅。所以其實你所講嘅--即係呢一份通函所講嘅嘢,其實都係一啲 25 目測嘅嘢,就唔需要物業管理公司去鬥嗰啲消防裝備嘅,係咪?係咪呢個意思? 26 楊恩健先生:冇錯。 27 楊志聰大律師:咁再澄清下,其實呢一個通函嘅第三部分都有提到一啲同檢查相關嘅事宜 28 嘅,咁就係呢個第三部分嘅第二點,定期檢查與保養。咁A 段就係話「除依賴註冊 29 消防承辦商嘅定期服務外,持牌物管公司需要就公用部分嘅巡查建立內部巡查嘅機 30 制,定期檢視消防設備嘅外觀同埋操作狀態」。 31 咁按番你頭先嘅解釋,其實所謂嘅檢視消防設備外觀同埋操作狀態,都係一啲 32 目測,唔需要自己去即係譬如開下、閂下,或者做其他檢查嘅? 33 楊恩健先生:唔需要。 34 楊志聰大律師:唔。咁你同唔同意其實喺現時嘅法律框架之下,其實物業管理公司可以做嘅 35 檢查,自己去做嘅檢查其實係唔多,都係靠目測去做? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十九天

44 本謄本由Epiq 編製 楊恩健先生:你個「唔多」... 1 楊志聰大律師:除咗目測以外,其實... 2 楊恩健先生:個量化--簡單嚟講,個--我可以講下嗰個情況,即係你話「唔多」,因為量化 3 唔到件事出嚟,簡單嚟講,如果佢見到有人熄咗-- 見到個可能個(English 4 Spoken )有個(English Spoken )燈著咗,佢唔使去搞,但係如果佢唔理 5 佢,可能個泵壞咗冇人知,但係如果佢有咁嘅責任知道出咗個(English 6 Spoken)燈,佢即刻搵消防承辦商嚟去處理,就可以將個火警風險降低。 7 所以你話「唔多」,好難去量化。正如我所講,頭先如果佢做巡邏嗰時目測, 8 見到個火警警報扲手爛咗,但係又冇響嘅,佢應該知道,佢作為一個物管人員,佢 9 應該知道點解冇響,點解又爛咗,咁咪即刻要搵消防承辦商去處理,咪又可以減低 10 咗個火警風險。 11 另外第三,點解會叫佢哋管理好啲泵房啲出入嗰啲紀錄,就係驚有啲--畀咗啲 12 唔應該入去嘅人,可能唔係消防承辦商嘅人入去,如果喺呢方面,喺物管方面,因 13 為我哋一啲大--我哋理解大嘅屋苑係有啲駐場嘅消防承辦商嘅,唔係個個屋苑做 14 到。如果物業管理公司行多步,我哋唔係叫佢去處理個消防系統,頭先你都正正都 15 講咗出嚟,消防系統係要註冊消防承辦商去處理嘅,佢只要盡佢嘅責任,用一啲目 16 測嘅方法,見到頭先我舉嗰啲例子,儘快去搵消防承辦商,咁就可以將嗰個火警風 17 險降低。 18 楊志聰大律師:係,同意嘅。即係總之如果目測有啲異常嘅情況,咁其實就應該要處理,明 19 白。咁我冇其他問題。 20 陸啟康法官:好,跟住到政府孫大律師。 21 孫靖乾資深大律師:係,處長,你好。有一啲嘅問題純粹想同你去跟進番嘅啫。咁我頭先都 22 聽到,即係譬如今朝就杜大律師都有問咗一啲即係關於消防處嘅唔少嘅問題,咁我 23 哋頭先亦都有聽到,譬如話包括宏泰嘅法律代表係一個註冊嘅消防嘅承辦商,以至 24 管理公司亦都有唔同嘅問題,咁當然我相信即係每一個即係涉事方,其實某程度上 25 都有佢嘅嗰個範圍,亦都有佢嗰個即係要處理嘅事項同責任,咁我相信呢一點你都 26 會認同嘅,係咪? 27 楊恩健先生:認同。 28 孫靖乾資深大律師:係。咁亦都頭先杜大律師有講到嗰個分工或者係即係唔同嘅職權嘅範圍 29 等等,咁當然可能同一件事上面,有陣時係多過一個涉事方,或者多過一個嘅政府 30 部門,可能都會係即係有需要係去關注或者係去睇下有冇啲咩嘢情況係需要去處 31 理,咁呢一點我相信你都會即係認同,即係如果係好--即係原則上嚟講,即係有陣 32 時會係牽涉多過一個涉事方或者多過一個政府部門,係咪? 33 楊恩健先生:認同。 34 孫靖乾資深大律師:但係同時間當然另一方嚟講,如果話完全冇一個分工嘅時候,亦都唔一 35 定係一個好處,因為如果譬如話就針對一個事宜嚟講,係唔清楚究竟係邊一個涉事 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十九天

45 本謄本由Epiq 編製 方或者邊一個部門應該要起碼為首去處理,我相信即係呢個亦係頭先你講過話喺某 1 一個議題方面,其實分工相對地係幾清楚嘅,係咪? 2 楊恩健先生:冇錯。 3 孫靖乾資深大律師:我想同你講一講,就係當然今朝早杜大律師問問題嘅時候,佢亦都嗰個 4 字眼去講,就係話「其實部門之間當然係要有溝通,有互動」,亦都有講話「所謂 5 嗰個分工可能唔係一個硬性嘅分工」,咁相信呢個字眼可能未必係最適合,即係係 6 唔係硬性定係點樣。但係我想即係同你再去澄清下,你嘅理解係即係針對一個--譬 7 如某一啲可能建築物裏面嘅,譬如一個話物料或者一啲設計,當然喺嗰個譬如條例 8 底下,又或者係嗰個叫做CoP,即係譬如一啲嘅守則,以至部門之間可能一啲係好 9 (English Spoken)嘅,可能係一啲譬如話佢哋通常用嘅標準一啲便箋或者一 10 一啲嘅(English Spoken),其實大家應該係唔係都會針對某一啲事宜,其實 11 邊一個首要負責去跟進,應該係唔係有一個相對地係清楚嘅分工,即係喺部門同部 12 門之間? 13 楊恩健先生:冇錯,正如頭先你講嗰個三層嘅架構。 14 孫靖乾資深大律師:明白。但係當然,如果嗰樣嘢亦都牽涉到一啲我哋所謂叫(English 15 Spoken),即係一啲火警嘅危險嘅時候,咁消防處亦都會係關注嘅? 16 楊恩健先生:冇錯。 17 孫靖乾資深大律師:同埋頭先杜大律師亦都有同你澄清,喺需要嘅時候,消防處第一亦都會 18 有權係去處理,包括係出一啲我哋叫做消除火警危險通知書嘅,係咪? 19 楊恩健先生:冇錯。 20 孫靖乾資深大律師:但係實際上如果嗰件事譬如關於某一啲材料佢嘅規格,如果譬如話屋宇 21 署已經有一個好特定嘅要求嘅時候,我相信你哋都會同番即係屋宇署或者相關嘅部 22 門去溝通,去睇下佢哋會唔會進行一個執法嘅? 23 楊恩健先生:冇錯。 24 孫靖乾資深大律師:如果需要,消防處當然亦都可以提供即係協助? 25 楊恩健先生:一定會。 26 孫靖乾資深大律師:跟住我亦都會想同你問一問,就係頭先有講到,就係關於嗰個叫做 27 (English Spoken)嘅嗰個情況,即係我哋叫SDN,咁無論係杜大律師有問 28 過,有啲其他嘅涉事方都有問過呢方面嘅問題。我想同你理解下,你話而家其實已 29 經係有一個新嘅機制,就未係改例,但係就會用一啲行政嘅措施,係唔係咁嘅情 30 況? 31 楊恩健先生:冇錯。 32 孫靖乾資深大律師:咁嗰個行政措施你頭先你所講係點樣去做,係通函定係如何去進行呢樣 33 行政措施? 34 楊恩健先生:行政措施我哋同商會聯絡,而家我哋收到個SDN 後,會加入咗一啲詢問,每一 35 個SDN 都要佢講出個停工嘅原因,去畀我哋有一個評估。咁仲有嘅就係我哋要強制 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十九天

46 本謄本由Epiq 編製 咗佢哋,我哋通知咗商會,強制咗呢啲SDN 一定要入電子251,十四日裏面一定要 1 畀到我哋,我哋將兩件事掛鉤咗之後,我哋會持續,佢每次續期嘅時候都會去理解 2 個情況,睇下仲有冇需要。如果我哋個上限而家設咗係六十日,六十日佢未做好, 3 而嗰個工程係有需要嘅,唔理咩嘢原因我哋應該都係會出呢個消除火警危險通知書 4 畀佢,叫佢儘快做好嗰個消防設備。 5 孫靖乾資深大律師:明白。即係所以喺而家嗰個新嘅措施,以至如果第二日修例嘅時候,即 6 係會有一個頭先你所講即係兩樣嘢,第一,要知道佢點解或者係唔係真係有需要去 7 關閉啲消防裝置。第二,就係會有一個六十日嗰個期限,如果佢超過咗嘅時候,你 8 哋就係會可以出呢個消防火警危險通知書去處理。 9 頭先亦都有問過,頭先杜大律師就話嗰個十四日,即係話就算譬如話你六十日 10 後係可以去出一個我哋叫做(English Spoken),即係消除火警危險通知書, 11 但係未夠六十日之前,其實係唔係都有一啲嘅時間係會去審視番個情況? 12 楊恩健先生:冇錯,每十四日,佢如果真係要續嘅時候,如果我哋發現佢係冇需要,可能六 13 十日前,六十日係一個指標嚟嘅,唔係硬性規定,可能已經出咗火警危險通知書畀 14 佢。 15 孫靖乾資深大律師:明白。好,跟住就想同你再問多少少嘅問題。就係其實你喺你第一份嘅 16 證人供詞都講咗好多短期、中期嘅一啲改善嘅措施,頭先亦都--早啲嘅時候杜大律 17 師同咗,我就唔重複。 18 頭先就林大律師問到你喺證人供詞第16 段,或者我諗比較完整去睇,我首先 19 可以等你去睇一睇,就係你喺你嗰個證人供詞應該係第5 段,就首先講咗,就係話 20 其實係一個比較即時嘅措施,就係成立咗一個叫(English Spoken),就係去 21 專門地係針對一啲可能係消防裝置,就係去作出一啲嘅--即係佢哋可以隨時,係有 22 一個team 去作一啲嘅勘察或者係巡查,呢個係其中一個嘅措施。 23 然後,跟住就係想你睇一睇,就係頭先杜大律師都有問你,第7 段。第7 段亦 24 都有講過,就係話係有針對一啲嘅樓宇,就係有去進行一個-- 即係都有個 25 inspection,一個勘察或者視察,咁亦都係針對佢哋嗰個消防嘅裝置,尤其係包 26 括嗰個警鐘。頭先你就更新咗個數字,就係話喺1 月份嘅時候,就係總共有二百五 27 六棟嘅樓宇,但係到而家就應該大約有六百多座嘅。 28 然後除咗第7 段之外,就係頭先林大律師都有問到你,就係第16 段,我想問 29 一問,第16 段嗰個係唔係其實講緊嗰個巡查,就同頭先第7 段嗰個其實就唔同, 30 即係一個額外嘅? 31 楊恩健先生:第7 段講嗰個係棚網嘅樓,16 段嗰個未必係有棚網嘅? 32 孫靖乾資深大律師:明白,明白。即係第7 段嗰個就係話如果佢可能做緊一啲嘅工程,譬如 33 大維修,係由棚網覆蓋住嘅,咁你就針對性就有一個措施,亦都係繼續做緊? 34 楊恩健先生:係。 35 孫靖乾資深大律師:然之後第16 段嗰個就唔一定係有一個棚網,即係其他嘅情況。咁我純 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十九天

47 本謄本由Epiq 編製 粹就想同你去了解多一樣嘢,就係我哋見第16 段嗰度一路開始,就講到去第19 1 段,因為第 16 段嗰個就應該係講緊叫做你當可能係一個(English 2 Spoken),或者係第一期。然之後去到第19 段嗰度,就有講話呢一個咁樣嘅做 3 法,就係會準備繼續針對全港可能有三萬二千棟嘅樓宇去做,呢個可唔可以都解釋 4 下嗰個數位,同埋係唔係呢個即係將來嘅一個做法,定係如何? 5 楊恩健先生:嗰三萬二千棟係當時定嘅,而家要考量番個資源問題,我哋應該喺嚟緊呢兩年 6 係睇到五千棟先,分期再睇埋餘下嗰啲。 7 孫靖乾資深大律師:明白。其實五千棟都已經係相當多一個嘅數字。係,明白。好,跟住就 8 想再問多你一方面嘅問題。就係琴日陳副處長喺佢作證嘅時候,佢亦都有表示過就 9 係消防處喺評估譬如話宏福苑單位嗰個損毀嘅情況,最主要其實都係佢哋進入呢個 10 單位裏面去觀察內部嘅狀況,就冇去考慮到結構上嘅問題。而根據有關資料顯示, 11 其實消防處評估咗宏福苑總數一千七百三十六個單位,其中有八百一十二個單位就 12 被評為相對地係冇受到大火影響。我都想問一問處長,其實呢個數字八百一十二 13 個,其實係唔係只係從一個消防即係嗰個救火,或者內部嗰個消防處評估個角度去 14 睇,唔係從結構上嘅? 15 楊恩健先生:冇錯。 16 孫靖乾資深大律師:所以你亦都會同意陳副處長嘅嗰個講法,就係話其實消防處去作呢方面 17 嘅統計,去協助譬如話呢個獨立委員會,其實佢都係睇下個別嗰個單位係唔係受到 18 大火嘅影響,而並不係真係去考慮嗰個單位本身或者樓宇整體嘅結構問題? 19 楊恩健先生:同意。 20 孫靖乾資深大律師:好,唔該晒處長,我就冇其他問題。 21 陸啟康法官:有冇覆問? 22 杜淦堃資深大律師:冇覆問。 23 陸啟康法官:我想問係唔係已經係最後一位消防處嘅證人呢? 24 杜淦堃資深大律師:可能係最--處長當然係喺呢個隊段最後一個證人。喺專家證人嗰度有消 25 防嘅代表,但係就事實證人嚟講,處長係最後一位消防處證人。 26 陸啟康法官:唔該晒。處長,我諗對於... 27 陳健波議員:我想問。 28 陸啟康法官:好,請。 29 陳健波議員:楊處長,我想問一個--即係問幾個,即係市民都會關心嘅問題。就係喺即係香 30 港就好多高層單位,大家都知,三四十樓都好平常。喺聽證會嘅過程,就無論係雲 31 梯車或者係其他裝備,當遇到高層單位火警明顯有不足,我問消防處就會否針對呢 32 方面作多啲研究同改善咁樣?因為呢個真係好多人好擔心,因為好多人住喺30 樓 33 以上。呢方面你有咩嘢意見呢? 34 楊恩健先生:關於整體,宏福苑之後,我哋成立咗一個督導委員會,由副處長(行動)去做 35 主席,去統籌晒所有行動單位去做一個檢討,對於高層滅火嘅策略,同埋呢啲特大 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十九天

48 本謄本由Epiq 編製 型嘅事故,當中包括咗指揮架構、救火策略,點樣應用科技,剛才委員所講嘅點樣 1 應用科技,點樣用啲新嘅工具去處理嘅,咁呢方面我哋會持續去檢討,去提升嘅。 2 一般嚟講,今次宏福苑大火係一個真係前所未見大嘅災難,特別我想提到嘅, 3 就係佢嘅火警同一般火警係非常之唔同,佢係由外牆燒咗入去單位,同一時間好多 4 單位著火,係我哋未見過嘅。可以保證話畀嚟聽,至於香港嘅高層樓宇嘅火警,其 5 實我哋不嬲都有一個策略,係配合屋宇署嘅設計喺批圖嗰陣時已經加咗落去,即係 6 包括咗一啲消防員𨋢、一啲消防員通道、一啲消防員升降機,去到呢啲高層滅火。 7 有少少數字可以同你分享一嘅,就係我哋比較過30 米樓上嘅樓宇,喺香港發生火 8 警時,平均我哋要幾多時間處理,平均係十九分鐘喥,我哋可以處理到。但係相對 9 整嗰個數字,即係整體我哋承載滅火樓宇火警,即係包括晒所有高高低低嘅樓,平 10 均係二十四分鐘。高層樓宇我哋嗰個滅火效率仲相對其實係仲好過... 11 陳健波議員:仲快咗反而? 12 楊恩健先生:係,仲快咗。 13 陸啟康法官:咁我都安心啲。 14 楊恩健先生:呢個我哋其實不斷都係將--我哋不斷有一個組別係將呢啲行動數據去做分析, 15 希望支援到前線同事去做得更加好嘅滅火救援工作。 16 陳健波議員:第二個問題,就係香港好多樓宇都有天井呢個設計問題,譬如有八個單位,咁 17 中間就有個天井,但係火災好多時一發生就有嗰個煙囪效應,大家都經常講呢樣 18 嘢。但係天井就最容易積聚啲垃圾,喺上面抌落嚟,或者如果唔去清潔,特別喺大 19 維修嘅情況,咁喺呢方面,即係或者消防處會做啲咩嘢?特別教育方面又點樣去啲 20 咩嘢工夫咁樣? 21 楊恩健先生:教育方面,我哋不嬲都會同物管,關於樓宇維修--或者樓宇監管嘅機構會提及 22 呢啲議題。至於我哋見過其實都有啲天井垃圾嘅問題,我哋試過去處理嘅,就會可 23 能係聯妬民政處一齊,當區嘅地方搵埋我哋地區防火委員會,有試過一齊去處理天 24 井垃圾問題。我哋都係有時會見到,有時唔係一個部門可以處理到,我哋都會用地 25 區力量,用民政事務處一齊去處理呢啲民生問題。 26 陳健波議員:好。最後一個問題,就係喺聽證會嘅過程,我就留意到消防處喺流程上不少地 27 方都需要係電子化,因為你仲有啲板,或者係用一啲即係唔係電子化嘅嘢,因為如 28 果用多啲電子化,先至可以更加早同埋更精確去搵出嗰啲消防隱患。另一方面嗰個 29 喺裝備上都要科技化,咁先能夠增加你救火嘅能力,同埋係保護啲消防員,呢方面 30 大家都知,如果做電子或者科技就要投入大量資源,你覺得呢方面你有冇困難,同 31 政府攞呢啲資源? 32 楊恩健先生:我哋每年喺科技發展都有向政府申請資源,暫時都冇遇到困難。至於頭先我好 33 認同你講用一啲--而家我哋用多嘅,就係一啲儀表板(English Spoke ),去 34 monitor 一啲我哋唔同類型嘅表現,即係我哋工作,譬如防火我哋有唔同嘅 35 (English Spoken),滅火行動、救援服務,我哋而家成個部門有九十個儀表 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第十九天

49 本謄本由Epiq 編製 板去睇住我哋唔同範疇嘅表現。 1 陳健波議員:好,唔該晒。 2 陸啟康法官:有冇跟進?好,我諗處長,我唔再重複番,我哋委員會一路聽對於前線消防員 3 嗰個所付出我唔再重複。你亦都係我哋今次--如果我睇番紀錄係消防處第十四名證 4 人,你亦都即係睇到,其實你哋提供咗大量嘅資料同埋證人供詞畀我哋,所以我哋 5 對於消防處全面咁協助我哋調查,我哋係感謝你哋嘅付出。亦都好多謝處長你親自 6 上嚟同我哋解釋問題,多謝你今日上嚟,處長。 7 楊恩健先生:多謝主席。 8

9 15 時02 分消防處處長證人楊恩健先生作供完畢 10

11 杜淦堃資深大律師:主席,今日我哋冇其他證人,下個禮拜會星期一同星期四係有聽證會。 12 陸啟康法官:星期一同四,我見好似下個禮拜就即係都多啲。 13 杜淦堃資深大律師:下個禮拜就非常之緊密,因為應該每日係有三至四名證人。 14 陸啟康法官:Okay。我哋星期一朝早10 點鐘繼續。 15

16 15 時03 分聆訊押後 17 (聆訊將於2026 年4 月27 日10 時00 分繼續) 18

FD06259 | 2025_港澳台_香港宏福苑大火_Transcript-(Chinese)_20260427.pdf

分类:06_境外及港澳台调查报告 | 年份:2025 | 地域:香港 | 严重程度: | 场所: | 起火原因: | 来源格式:pdf

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第二十天

本謄本由Epiq 編製

就大埔宏福苑火災成立的獨立委員會

聽證會

高等法院原訟法庭陸啟康法官 陳健波議員 歐陽伯權博士

日期:

第二十天 2026 年4 月27 日

杜淦堃資深大律師、俞匡庭大律師、李澍桓大律師、馮天榮大律師及張天 風大律師代表獨立委員會

孫靖乾資深大律師、陸栩然大律師、卓元暢大律師及劉逸冲大律師代表政 府

譚俊傑大律師及劉晉安大律師代表宏褔苑居民

律政司代表

競爭事務委員會代表

呂世杰資深大律師及阮文躍大律師代表市區重建局

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第二十天

1 本謄本由Epiq 編製

以下內容乃聆訊數碼錄音謄本 1

2 10 時00 分聆訊恢復 3

4 10 時00 分屋宇署助理署長/強制驗樓證人張玉清女士開始作供 5

6 陸啟康法官:係,杜大律師。 7 杜淦堃資深大律師:主席、兩位委員,今日第一位嘅證人係張玉清女士。張女士,早晨。 8 張玉清女士:早晨。 9 杜淦堃資深大律師:麻煩你企起身將你面對嘅聲明讀出嚟。 10 張玉清女士:本人張玉清聲明,本人所作的證供,盡本人所知、所悉及所信,均屬真實。 11 杜淦堃資深大律師:麻煩你,請坐。張女士,你係屋宇署嘅助理署長,你係專門負責強制驗 12 樓? 13 張玉清女士:冇錯。 14 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋從你嘅文件證供睇到你加入屋宇署其實服務咗超過三十年,喺 15 2019 年晉升到而家個職級,係咪? 16 張玉清女士:係。 17 杜淦堃資深大律師:你為咗今次嘅聽證會呢,你提交咗一份詳細嘅證人陳述書,佢喺 18 WS1/775 頁,我相信你都有再睇過同埋可以確認裏面嘅內容,係咪? 19 張玉清女士:我確認。 20 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋今日麻煩你協助我哋嘅範疇其實係主要探討宏福苑維修工程嘅一啲 21 消防安全嘅問題喇,呢個議題可能有啲相關嘅法例,我哋想麻煩你幫一幫手喇,亦 22 都會涉及到你哋屋宇署出過嘅一啲《操作守則》,主要係你證人陳述書裏面提過嘅 23 事情嘅。 24 張玉清女士:明白。 25 杜淦堃資深大律師:我相信你亦都知道屋宇署其實係有其他嘅證人交過證人陳述書嘅,因為 26 可能有少少重疊喇,而你嘅證供比較緊要喇,所以你係屋宇署嘅唯一一位嚟協助我 27 哋嘅證人嘅,所以有啲範疇我問到你,可能你覺得唔係喺你嘅認知裏面,你可以講 28 畀我哋聽,呢個冇問題嘅。 29 張玉清女士:明白。 30 杜淦堃資深大律師:除咗你之外,你有冇睇過你啲同事嘅證人供詞,除咗你自己嗰份? 31 張玉清女士:有睇過。 32 杜淦堃資深大律師:係嘞,係邊位嘅證人供詞? 33 張玉清女士:(English Spoken ),潘玉龍,潘先生,潘先生,(English 34

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第二十天

2 本謄本由Epiq 編製 Spoken)。係。 1 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,另外仲有呢? 2 張玉清女士:余澤新(譯音)。 3 杜淦堃資深大律師:兩位嘅你都有睇過㗎? 4 張玉清女士:我有睇過。 5 杜淦堃資深大律師:為咗方便大家去理解嗰個監管框架,我都想第一件事麻煩你去解一解釋 6 其實屋宇署喺《建築物條例》底下主要一啲嘅法定責任嘅,其實你喺你嘅證人供 7 詞,如果我哋喺螢幕到揭去,去到第6 段,你開始去咗講,又同嗰啲大維修有關同 8 埋強制驗樓有關嘅事情添嘅,或者你可唔可以就呢啲範疇略略咁就你嘅認知同我哋 9 略略解釋一下先? 10 張玉清女士:或者我講一講成個--如果唔介意,我講一講成個嘅框架,好唔好呀? 11 杜淦堃資深大律師:框架,好呀。 12 張玉清女士:因為其實成個框架就都頗複雜㗎,同埋係同有唔同嘅範疇係有配合一齊嘅。咁 13 成個政策就係呢,其實香港嘅樓宇有老化嘅現象,咁同埋有其他嘅問題嘅,喺以 14 前,首先我想講一講就係嗰個小型工程監管制度先,咁因為小型工程監管制度係先 15 過我哋個強制驗樓制度嘅。咁成個制度就係之前其實喺未引入小型工程監管制度之 16 前,其實喺嗰個建築監管方面只係得番一套嘅制度嘅,呢套制度係啲咩嘢呢?就係 17 所有人要做工程,無論係一個起新樓,或者喺嗰個現有樓宇底下需要做一啲嘅工 18 程,小型工程都好喇,其實都係用一個制度,呢個制度就係要搵一啲專業人士,即 19 係啲認可人士喇,包括可能係有需要嘅情況就係註冊結構工程師去入則嘅,首先佢 20 要準備啲圖則去審批,審批完之後亦都需要係拎到我哋嘅開工許可,咁先至可以開 21 工嘅。 22 如果起新樓比較大型都係咁做喇,咁至於喺現有樓宇底下亦都係需要咁做嘅, 23 所以引伸至一個問題,就係對於喺現有樓宇如果啲業主想做一啲簡單嘅工程,例如 24 我想起一個簷篷或者做冷氣機架,甚或乎係可能要做維修,其實都要跟一個機制去 25 做嘅。正正因為呢個機制係比較繁複啲你可以咁講,或者係一個比較大嘅一個框 26 架,對於小業主嚟講呢,如果要做一啲簡單嘅工程其實有個困難度喺度嘅,如果佢 27 要做一啲簡單工程,亦都可能要花費好多時間先至做得到。正正因為咁嘅原因,其 28 實就有好多業主選擇就唔跟法例去做個工程,由於佢哋唔根法例,所以就會有一個 29 違例工程出現,咁違例工程出現呢,最大嘅問題其實就係佢嗰個質量同埋安全都冇 30 保證嘅,正正因為咁嘅原因,政府就睇到就係應該點樣樣再去喺呢個制度底下去理 31 順同埋優化佢,所以就推出咗呢個小型工程監管制度。 32 咁小型工程監管制度其實就係--佢同嗰個--原先嗰個審批圖則嘅分別係乜呢? 33 就係佢冇咗一個需要審批呢個機制,就會簡單咗好多。呢個機制底下其實就係喺現 34 有樓宇呢,如果業主想做呢啲小型工程就可以通過呢個小型工程監管制度去合法去 35 做呢個嘅工程。而呢個制度其實推出咗之後,其實我哋見到嗰個每年都有好多嘅人 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第二十天

3 本謄本由Epiq 編製 去透過小型工程去進行小型工程嘅,每年起碼多過十四、十五萬份嘅申請。係睇得 1 到小型工程係有一個成效喺度。 2 至於就住小型工程嘅監管方面,其實就係因為小型工程喇,咁我哋就會睇番佢 3 個唔同嘅層次,主要係睇佢個風險同埋嗰個種類,同埋佢嗰個(English 4 Spoken),即係有幾大細咁樣,嚟到去做一個監管嘅。而家嘅小型工程就主要分 5 三個級別嘅,而三個級別底下都有唔同嘅監管嘅方法,監管嘅規範喺度嘅。無論嗰 6 三個小型工程嘅級別嚟講,其實最重要嘅一樣嘢就係其實要做小型工程一定要搵我 7 哋嘅註冊承建商去做呢個小型工程嘅,而呢個小型工程嘅承建商其實係要通過我哋 8 嘅審核,去考核佢嗰個資歷,佢個經驗,所以呢啲小型承建商係即係通過咗呢個考 9 核,喺我哋個註冊制度底下呢,咁去做嘅工程呢,起碼嗰個質量會係有個保證,呢 10 個就係小型工程嗰個框架。咁... 11 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋去講一講有關嘅--可能一啲嘅名詞同一啲角色先,你頭先講到係有 12 啲註冊承建商先可以做呢啲工程。 13 張玉清女士:係,係。 14 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢個喺《建築物條例》底下,呢個就係你哋所講嘅(English 15 Spoken)? 16 張玉清女士:冇錯。 17 杜淦堃資深大律師:另外有一個角色嘅,仲有一個(English Spoken),你都可以解一 18 解。 19 張玉清女士:(English Spoken)係未開始引入嘅,(English Spoken)就係嗰個 20 強制驗樓嗰個過程。 21 杜淦堃資深大律師:係嘞,所以你不如之後呢,你用你嘅--因為可能你有嘢想補充,之後其 22 實我都想你解釋畀大家聽個強制驗樓計劃同你頭先講小型工程呢個計劃嘅--呢個做 23 法嘅關係,... 24 張玉清女士:嘅關係,唔。 25 杜淦堃資深大律師:...跟住就再講番嗰個RI 嘅問題。 26 張玉清女士:好。不如我開始講番嗰個--跟住落嚟就係嗰個強制驗樓制度喇。 27 杜淦堃資深大律師:好呀。 28 張玉清女士:其實就小型工程個制度就應該係2010 年開始推行嘞,其實同一個時間,其實 29 整體成個政府都就住樓宇安全呢個政策係想做多啲嘢嘅,所以其實喺--已經有個承 30 建商喺度嘞,其實政府就想推動就係防患於未然,希望業主儘早去做一啲嘅檢驗, 31 令到樓宇唔會等到真係要有破損、有危險先至去做個維修,因為咁樣樣其實係對整 32 體香港嘅樓宇安全係唔理想嘅。 33 所以正正因為咁嘅原因,其實強制驗樓呢個制度就喺2003 年同埋2005 年已 34 經開始有個諮詢嘅。跟住就其實喺2012 年正式呢個推行。呢個強制驗樓制度底 35 下,其實即係要求業主如果收到我哋嘅一個通知底下,就需要去做驗樓呢個工作 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第二十天

4 本謄本由Epiq 編製 嘅。而因為要業主去做驗樓,同埋跟住可能要做維修,其實我哋就有一個配套,就 1 係要搵一啲適合嘅人士去幫業主去做呢個檢驗,呢個正正就係嗰個RI 嘅引入。 2 我遲少少先講個RI 嘅職責先喇,不如我講埋繼續就係如果嗰個檢驗做完咗之 3 後,跟住如果真係要做維修,所以個配套就係可以搵番之前講嘅註冊小型承建商去 4 幫業主去用一啲比較簡單同埋合法嘅方法去處理嗰個樓宇安全嘅問題。因為以前就 5 係頭先我所講,就係如果做維修的話,有啲業主冇呢個制度底下,冇小型工程制 6 度,其實佢可能會搵一啲唔合規格嘅人去做,所以兩個系統係一個配套嚟㗎囉。 7 杜淦堃資深大律師:你頭先都提到,而家強制驗樓計劃你要搵人去做有關嘅檢測同評估,評 8 估完之後,你就可能要搵啲有關嘅人士去負責有關嘅工程,你頭先都提到一定要係 9 一個註冊嘅承建商喇。 10 張玉清女士:唔。 11 杜淦堃資深大律師:另外仲有一個角色就係我哋頭先提到嗰個RI。 12 張玉清女士:唔。 13 杜淦堃資深大律師:或者可唔可以都解一解個RI 嗰個角色同個責任? 14 張玉清女士:個RI 其實就係註冊檢驗人員喇,係因應呢個強制驗樓呢個制度係成立嘅一個 15 新嘅名冊嚟嘅。因為當初嗰陣時呢,亦都喺公眾諮詢底下就係睇得到呢,其實就應 16 該都要即係將呢個責任,其實就要搵一啲合適嘅人士幫業主去做嘅,而呢個RI 其 17 實係一啲專業嘅人士,佢例如可能係一個建築師、工程師或者係測量師,佢首先就 18 要喺佢哋自己個專業界別裏面係要拎到佢嗰個專業嘅註冊先嘅,考核咗先嘅,跟住 19 先至再嚟我哋個註冊委員會,再去審核番佢嗰個工作經驗。而喺呢個法例底下係只 20 有呢個RI 先至可以進行嗰個訂明檢驗同埋之後嘅監督嗰個訂明修葺嘅。 21 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想問下你都可唔可以講一講其實佢嘅責任包括啲乜嘢? 22 張玉清女士:如果喺嗰個檢驗階段,佢係需要係自己親身落現場做一個視察。睇番嗰個樓宇 23 嗰個狀況,我哋就出咗本《作業守則》畀所有嗰個同強制驗樓有關係嘅人士可以參 24 考番嗰個內容嘅,裏面亦都係講得好清楚佢有個責任,包括佢要確保個樓宇安全。 25 而喺個檢驗階段嚟講,佢其實要就住唔同嘅範疇去做一個檢測,睇下需唔需要去做 26 一個維修嘅。其實我哋出咗強制驗樓之後,其實係咪真係需要做維修呢?都係未必 27 一定嘅,係好決定於佢視察完出嚟個樓宇個狀況係咪真係需要做維修,如果真係需 28 要做維修的話,咁就係去咗另外下一個階段,就係維修嗰個階段。而維條嘅階段, 29 其實註冊檢驗人員個責任係好重大嘅,因為佢要負責監督成個強制驗樓底下嘅修葺 30 工程,佢要確保個工程係穩妥安全,佢要確保一啲用嘅物料都要符合法例嘅要求、 31 工序要恰當,呢啲係佢個責任嚟嘅,詳細嘅資料都喺我哋個《作業守則》,而要佢 32 做一個咁嘅工作,佢係要有足夠嘅監管嘅。我哋喺嗰個《作業守則》裏面都有講到 33 佢要提供足夠嘅監督嘅。 34 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋陣間先去睇有關嘅《作業守則》,我想呢個階段問一問你,個RI 35 本身佢可唔可以指派其他嘅人員代佢履行你頭先所講嘅職責嘅呢? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第二十天

5 本謄本由Epiq 編製 張玉清女士:如果喺嗰個檢驗階段係唔得嘅,佢一定要親身自己去做嗰個檢驗嘅。但係當然 1 喇,佢去做檢驗,其實可能佢都有啲人幫佢手嘅。 2 杜淦堃資深大律師:係。 3 張玉清女士:係嘞,但係佢自己一定要去做呢個角色嘅,唔。 4 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁喺嗰個之後嘞,真係要做維修嗰個階段,有啲咩嘢嘢佢係可以指派人 5 哋去做嘅?同埋佢個責任係點㗎? 6 張玉清女士:其實到到維修階段,其實佢可以成立佢個團隊嘅,幫佢做一個監督嘅工作。喺 7 我哋個《作業守則》裏面講咗,佢可以有兩個層次嘅協助。如果唔介意我可能會講 8 少少英文。 9 杜淦堃資深大律師:(English Spoken) 10 張玉清女士:即係佢其實有兩個層次,即係level 1 同埋level 2 嘅(English 11 Spoken)。 12 杜淦堃資深大律師:係。 13 張玉清女士:Level 1 就係每個禮拜要落去睇嘅,level 2 就係兩個禮拜落去睇嘅。另 14 外,佢自己都要喺一啲特定嘅情況需要去做監督,但係雖然佢有個監督團隊,佢都 15 唔會--佢個責任唔會走咗去。佢係整體要負責番成個嘅監督工程嘅。喺呢個嘅我都 16 想補充一啲嘅,如果嗰個RI 自己覺得我自己可以做晒所有嘅監督工作,咁佢就要 17 跟番我哋嗰個(English Spoken )嗰個(English Spoken ),就係即係佢 18 要做埋個level 1、做埋level 2 嗰個嘅(English Spoken)。 19 杜淦堃資深大律師:你頭先提到佢可以建立團隊,level 1 同level 2 就會影響佢有啲 20 咩嘢時候或者隔幾耐要落去睇喇? 21 張玉清女士:冇錯。 22 杜淦堃資深大律師:你頭先都提到有一啲嘅事情佢親身睇嘅,佢唔可以叫其他人幫佢嘅,可 23 唔可以畀啲例子我哋? 24 張玉清女士:例如譬我要做石屎維修,我開鑿咗之後,第一轉要去做一個修葺嘅時候,佢自 25 己要落去睇。另外,有啲測試,例如我做完石屎維修之後,我哋要做一啲測試叫 26 (English Spoken),佢呢啲要自己落去睇嘅。 27 杜淦堃資深大律師:好嘞,就佢嘅責任同埋有咩嘢可以--你頭先都提過呢一樣嘢,或者我哋 28 可以--睇下你可唔可以跟進一啲?你都講到其實個最終責任喺佢度。 29 張玉清女士:冇錯。 30 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係佢有建立佢嘅團隊,佢可以有人嘢叫人幫佢,就呢個最終責任個方 31 面,呢個都係法例底下嘅要求嚟嘅,呢個唔係《作業守則》嘅要求喇,係咪? 32 張玉清女士:法例嘅要求。 33 杜淦堃資深大律師:係30D,係咪呀? 34 張玉清女士:係。 35 杜淦堃資深大律師:另外我想你幫一幫我哋同我哋,就係同我哋今次嘅調查最關心嘅項目, 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第二十天

6 本謄本由Epiq 編製 因為你嘅證人供詞裏面由48 段開始我哋見到呢,都解釋到喺法例下低RI 同埋RC 1 嗰個註冊嘅承建商都有確保建築安全同埋呢個建築質素嘅基本責任。 2 張玉清女士:係。 3 杜淦堃資深大律師:而你亦都講得好清楚,喺《建築物條例》底下嘅文明規定,佢哋確保建 4 築安全,RC 同RI 都要確保建築安全? 5 張玉清女士:冇錯。 6 杜淦堃資深大律師:而RI 就有個檢查同埋監督嘅工作,正如你頭先講咗喇。呢啲安全同埋 7 質素嘅問題就會引伸到今次我哋調查呢一部分,嗰個安全責任嘅問題,喺防火呢個 8 範疇裏面佢哋有咩嘢責任,第一,佢哋有冇責任?第二,佢哋有咩嘢責任?可唔可 9 以解一解畀我哋聽? 10 張玉清女士:佢哋有責任嘅,佢哋有咩嘢責任呢?即係佢哋要--第一樣,就係佢要確保使用 11 嘅物料要合規。 12 杜淦堃資深大律師:或者可以講番,因為我問咗你,唔好意思,可能我個問法,有兩個角 13 色,有RI 同RC 嘅。 14 張玉清女士:係,係。 15 杜淦堃資深大律師:或者你都可以解嘅時候講一講邊一個範疇係佢兩個都有責任,有邊啲嘢 16 就可能佢哋一方面會有責任? 17 張玉清女士:譬如好似物料方面,物料方面其實兩個都有責任嘅,因為提供物料嗰個係個承 18 建商,但係個RI 其實都要確認嗰啲物料係咪合乎嗰個標準嘅。 19 杜淦堃資深大律師:另外有冇啲責任淨係喺RI 身上或者RC 身上,你都可以講一講,除咗物 20 料? 21 張玉清女士:如果喺個工程嘅安排方面,工程安排其實係承建商嘅責任,譬如佢個先後次序 22 點樣樣處理。但係其實我覺得個RI 唔會走咗去佢個責任,因為佢要監督㗎嘛,同 23 埋佢亦都需要係睇番嗰個工序係咪合適囉,因為佢係一個專業人士嚟㗎嘛。 24 杜淦堃資深大律師:就防火安全,除咗物料之外,你有冇其他嘢想補充? 25 張玉清女士:防火安全方面呢,其實係亦都牽涉有好多唔同嘅範疇,係有個工序,亦都係有 26 關於佢個地盤管理,呢啲其實呢--地盤管理其實個承建商個責任好大,因為佢點樣 27 樣可以管理好佢個地盤。另外一方面,就係佢可以就係喺嗰個... 28 陸啟康法官:杜大律師,我諗呢個就好籠統,同埋好多個--會唔會你同佢... 29 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白,明白,我等陣細化啲再問佢如果係咁,因為我睇下證人講乜。 30 陸啟康法官:我留畀你去... 31 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白。 32 陸啟康法官:因為嗰個比較廣。 33 杜淦堃資深大律師:比較廣呢樣嘢。不如咁,我陣間用一啲比較細化嘅例子我再去同你探 34 討。 35 張玉清女士:唔,唔。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第二十天

7 本謄本由Epiq 編製 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋順序講番頭先嗰啲角色先,因為你講咗喺強制驗樓工程底下,個RI 1 同個RC 個角色,正如你頭先咁講,佢兩個都需要有特定嘅牌照,係咪? 2 張玉清女士:係。 3 杜淦堃資深大律師:到你證人供詞28 段亦都提到嘅,就有提到「(English Spoken) 4 牌照」,即係個RGBC,嗰一個牌照又係同我哋今次RC 個牌照係咪同一個,或者點 5 樣樣,個關係係點? 6 張玉清女士:喺個註冊制度底下有幾種唔同嘅註冊承建商嘅,有一種叫做RGBC ,即係 7 (English Spoken),佢即係一般註冊承建商,佢係可以起大樓嘅,即係起新 8 樓,咁同埋亦都可以做嗰個小型工程嘅,因為佢個牌照係啲大牌嚟嘅。 9 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係呢個就係你哋俗稱講「大牌」? 10 張玉清女士:大牌,係嘞。 11 杜淦堃資深大律師:係嘞。 12 張玉清女士:其實個制度仲有一啲叫做(English Spoken),我呢度唔再講。另外有個 13 叫RMWC,呢個就係小型工程制度裏面,所做一個工程嘅時候,我哋都特別因應佢 14 呢個小型工程監管制度係有一啲小型工程嘅承建商嘅,咁呢啲小型工程嘅承建商只 15 係可以做小型工程嘅啫,唔可以去做起大樓嘅。而小型工程承建商亦都係有分唔同 16 嘅等級嘅,因為頭先講咗,就係我哋已經分咗有三個級別,咁佢三個級別其實都係 17 跟個風險嘅。例如可能拆僭建,係一啲比較簡單啲嘅,或者呢啲就會係-- 或者驗 18 窗、改窗嗰啲就係比較簡單啲,咁就係會第三個級別嚟嘅。至於第一個級別個小型 19 承建商其實就可以做一啲比較複雜一啲,同埋你可以講話個風險高多少少嘅一啲工 20 程,例如係啲咩嘢嘢呢?就係我喺呢個樓裏面,我想開個窿,跟住造條新嘅樓梯, 21 呢個都係一級小型工程嘅承建商可以做嘅。至於二級小型工程承建商,就係即係介 22 乎兩者之間,佢就會可以做一啲就係--一般嘅維修都係第二級別嘅小型工程承建商 23 可以做得到嘅。 24 杜淦堃資深大律師:喺宏福苑呢個個案,嗰個主承建商佢要有邊個牌先做到?如果你睇番而 25 家嘅記錄。 26 張玉清女士:睇下先,因為宏福苑嗰個唔係我哋嗰個個案,所以我答唔到你。 27 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白,明白。 28 張玉清女士:係嘞。 29 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋陣間睇其他嘅規矩嗰陣可能有啲嘢你會幫到我哋。講番... 30 陸啟康法官:但係係唔係--署方喺今次嗰個大火之後係將--好似將呢啲譬如一般嘅樓宇嘅承 31 建商個工程個(English Spoken)係咪改咗? 32 張玉清女士:其實將會去改變嘅其實係,因為... 33 陸啟康法官:係由邊級升到邊級? 34 張玉清女士:因為而家嘅制度底下呢,其實好多嘅工程都係屬於二級嘅,咁其實二級工程 35 呢,雖然係話二級喇,但係其實唔係一定要二級嗰個承建商做,你可以再高級一啲 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第二十天

8 本謄本由Epiq 編製 嘅,其實都可以做得到嘅。 1 陸啟康法官:係呀。 2 張玉清女士:但係因應今次呢件事件,我哋將會喺嚟緊嘅修例裏面呢,將大型維修會升格, 3 做一個一級嘅小型工程,而呢個一級嘅小型工程亦都會比較特別一啲,佢係要第三 4 方去做監管,而呢個第三方將會係一個嗰個(English Spoken)。 5 杜淦堃資深大律師:AP。 6 張玉清女士:AP,係嘞,會係由AP 去監管嘅,除咗由AP 去監管之外,另外,係需要有一 7 啲訂明嘅圖則,即係要講清楚嗰個維修嘅過程佢有啲咩嘢程序同埋有啲保護措施 8 嘅,除此之外亦都要呢--其實平時係唔需要做呢樣嘅小型工程底下,而呢個新嘅新 9 界別裏面,佢哋需要入咗個圖則畀我哋之後,我哋要睇番個情況,得到我哋嘅許可 10 先至可以開工嘅。呢個係將會嚟緊嘅一個做法。 11 陸啟康法官:亦都係因為今次嘅事件,其實將一般樓宇嘅維修工程係升格咗嘅? 12 張玉清女士:冇錯,係。 13 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋或者跟住睇番嗰個監管嘅問題,我諗我哋講番大火前嗰個情況先。 14 張玉清女士:好。 15 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋陣間或者有機會我哋都再補充多啲主席頭先問過嘅資料。 16 張玉清女士:唔。 17 杜淦堃資深大律師:喺你證人供詞第57 到63 段裏面你講到,為咗確保RI 會履行佢哋就強 18 制驗樓嗰個法定職責,你哋屋宇署會隨機審查,你有啲(English Spoken ) 19 嘅,包括一啲文件嘅審查同埋一啲實地嘅審查,即係有啲你哋叫做(English 20 Spoken)。 21 張玉清女士:係。 22 杜淦堃資深大律師:你嘅第60 段亦都講到,實地審查其實係核實RI 同埋--RC 同埋RI, 23 兩方面都係,佢哋提交嘅報告裏面,即係佢哋報上嚟嘅內容係咪準確嘅。就呢一方 24 面,我想睇下你可唔可以都同我哋講一講,因為其實就呢啲強制驗樓計劃,你哋一 25 路都有做呢啲嘅審查,同埋嗰個數量嘅問題可以解一解畀我哋聽。 26 張玉清女士:我哋一路以嚟都有做呢個嘅審核呢個工作,因為其實透過審核,我哋可以睇得 27 到個RI 同埋嗰個RC 係咪可以履行到佢個法定嘅職責嘅。咁或者我主要都係講番嗰 28 個(English Spoken)嗰個階段,因為其實我哋有三個階段咁嘅,即係可以講 29 番,第一個階段,如果係抽查審核,其實就係檢驗個階段我哋會做呢樣嘢嘅,同埋 30 員工都會做呢個審查--即係抽查呢樣。 31 咁你哋--或者我係講晒兩個階段,不如,第一個階段嗰個檢驗,就係其實做完 32 檢驗之後,RI 係需要入番嗰個報告畀我哋嘅,咁我哋揸住個報告,即係如果抽得到 33 佢,其實就會睇番佢個文件嘅內容係咪跟番我哋個守則裏面嘅要求做足佢嘅嘢,跟 34 住第二樣,我哋就會落去現場去核實番個情況,包括就係佢會唔會有啲位置其實係 35 應該要做維修嘅,但係佢睇唔到,或者係佢嗰個實際嘅情況係啲咩嘢,咁而家我哋 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第二十天

9 本謄本由Epiq 編製 個機制底下,亦都係會要求我哋同事去做個審核嘅時候,亦都會同個大廈嘅管理處 1 或者係個業主嗰邊要做一個問卷調查咁樣嘅,就睇番嗰個RI 嘅表現嘅。 2 杜淦堃資深大律師:或者我哋都睇番啲數字,第61 段,其實你將有關嘅你哋嘅個案,最緊 3 要嘅數字都喺呢個表嗰度睇到,我哋見到就係譬如2025 年,你哋收到強制驗樓提 4 交嘅呢個總數係10451 份,咁當中有1602 係受到呢個隨機審查嘅,即係你哋嗰 5 個(English Spoken)嗰個數量,就係15%。而當中我哋見到有390 宗就係做 6 咗(English Spoken),咁理解係咪啱? 7 張玉清女士:啱,我哋呢個-- 我有少少補充,係,呢個機制其實我哋係跟(English 8 Spoken)個(English Spoken)嚟到去做嘅,咁呢個(English Spoken) 9 就最主要就係睇番我哋有幾多個入--有幾多份文件入,而係喺裏面抽查,咁最終個 10 目的其實我哋係要完成到315 個個案嘅,但當中其實我哋每年都基本上我哋都會係 11 多過315 個成功個案。 12 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係你指個(English Spoken)就係而家D 段裏面講嘅,係咪? 13 張玉清女士:係。 14 陸啟康法官:即係實際係會多啲? 15 張玉清女士:其實要做315,一定要做成嘅,一定要入到屋嘅,其實簡單嚟講,咁而家我哋 16 做到嘅,2025 年就做到390。 17 陸啟康法官:哦,哦,我明白。 18 張玉清女士:其實文件審查會多啲嘅,因為有啲個案我哋入唔到間屋,其實係。 19 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白,即係其實你做咗嘅,就係390,需要--如果用番個(English 20 Spoken),你就要做315 宗? 21 張玉清女士:冇錯,係。 22 杜淦堃資深大律師:嗰個係有一個數量嘅要求? 23 張玉清女士:係。 24 杜淦堃資深大律師:講番宏福苑嘅大維修,我哋知道個RC 就係宏業。 25 張玉清女士:唔。 26 杜淦堃資深大律師:個RI 就係有位叫做吳曜嘅先生。 27 張玉清女士:唔。 28 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁之前仲有一位叫做沈鉅忠,但係我哋知道佢之後過咗身。我哋見到佢- 29 -順帶一提,我哋見到佢喺屋宇署--向屋宇署交畀委員會--喺屋宇署交畀委員會嘅 30 文件,我哋都見到一啲佢哋嘅資料嘅,吳曜先生申請過三次做AP,頭兩次其實佢唔 31 成功嘅,第三次佢先至成功嘅啫。潘玉龍先生嗰個證人供詞裏面提過一啲呢啲資料 32 嘅,呢個你哋--你都睇過,同埋同佢傾過,係咪? 33 張玉清女士:係。 34 杜淦堃資深大律師:而我哋見到吳曜先生係處理過八十單強制驗樓,其中三十單係處--做呢 35 個RI 嘅,吳曜其他處理過嘅項目,相信你哋都有留意同關注,喺呢次大火之後, 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第二十天

10 本謄本由Epiq 編製 係咪? 1 張玉清女士:會,會有留意。 2 杜淦堃資深大律師:講到去宏業,我哋知道佢喺2023 年8 月,佢哋亦都畀你哋屋宇署嘅紀 3 律委員會裁定咗一啲失-- 有啲--犯咗一啲失當嘅行為,咁就當時罰咗50,000 4 鈫,同埋禁止承接小型工程四個月嘅,我想你都講一講,呢啲嘅紀錄,如果佢哋畀 5 你罰嘅,係公開嘅,係咪? 6 張玉清女士:如果係告嗰啲,其實就唔係公開嘅,如果係紀律處分,我哋就會擺上我哋個網 7 站度嘅。 8 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,個意思就係如果你罰咗佢譬如50,000 鈫四個月嘅,呢個喺你哋網 9 站度就睇到? 10 張玉清女士:係,唔。 11 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋知道喺2025 年嘅11 月,你哋屋宇署就宏業喺香港做RC 嘅其餘 12 嗰二十八個工地,你哋全部都係發出咗《臨時停工令》嘅。 13 張玉清女士:係。 14 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢個係喺大火之後嘅措施嚟嘅,係咪? 15 張玉清女士:係,冇錯。 16 杜淦堃資深大律師:或者可唔可以咁講?屋宇署喺停工之後,仲有冇繼續調查呢一啲宏業負 17 責做RC 嘅項目? 18 張玉清女士:有嘅,係,亦都係進行緊,有啲工作。 19 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想問下你宏業咁而家仲有冇持有一啲你哋相關你哋受規管嘅牌照嘅? 20 張玉清女士:如果我冇記錯,因為其實主要都係即係(English Spoken)嗰邊會比較知 21 道嘅。 22 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白,係。 23 張玉清女士:如果我冇記錯,應該佢而家好似佢已經辭任咗,係。 24 杜淦堃資深大律師:好,我想同你之後--麻煩你講一講個分工嘅問題。 25 張玉清女士:係。 26 杜淦堃資深大律師:我諗你明白,大家都好關注呢一樣嘢。而你喺證人供詞裏面亦都有提供 27 咗一啲資料嘅,如果我哋去84 段,一個喺807 頁,呢度有一個講法,如果籠統嚟 28 講,呢度就話屋宇署其實係負責一啲所謂被動式嘅消防裝置,包括建築設計、火警 29 間隔呢啲嘅監管。而消防處係負責一啲主動式嘅消防裝置,同埋我哋大家都知道佢 30 哋喺適當嘅情況底下會出一啲《消除火警危險通知書》嘅,佢亦都有即係法定嘅責 31 任消除呢啲嘅危險。 32 我都想你講一講,就係就呢個分工嘅問題,其實都解釋一下你哋嘅職責,屋宇 33 署就火警危險嘅職責,可唔可以都解一解釋畀我哋聽? 34 張玉清女士:我哋嘅職責其實就係會跟番我哋個法例框架去處理,咁主要都係頭先即係譬如 35 呢度文件所講,就係如果係一啲被動式嘅樓宇嘅個案--情況,咁我哋就會去執法, 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第二十天

11 本謄本由Epiq 編製 尤其是特別係如果喺嗰個樓宇裏面,一啲走火樓梯嗰啲有一啲違例嘅工程,咁我哋 1 會去執法嘅。至於就譬如消防嗰邊就可能係一啲-- 佢可能係一啲(English 2 Spoken)嗰啲,(English Spoken)嘅(English Spoken)嗰啲,咁佢就 3 會幫手去執法嘅。 4 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係唔係一啲固定嘅? 5 張玉清女士:唔係固定嘅物品,即係譬如可能有啲垃圾,或者係啲泥頭喺度,就會係佢去負 6 責執法嘅。 7 杜淦堃資深大律師:你應該都會同意,如果我哋講緊消除火警危險呢一樣嘢,其實都幾廣 8 嘅,講緊,咁當然,就嗰個建築設計,你頭先講到一啲物料同埋我哋講嘅被動式消 9 防裝置,呢啲你哋會去畀意見,同埋你會去研究,但係就呢一方面,相信你哋同消 10 防都會溝通嘅,係咪? 11 張玉清女士:冇錯,我哋好緊密溝通嘅其實係。 12 杜淦堃資深大律師:上星期個聽證會我哋探討過一個問題,咁消防處嘅處長都同意,雖然消 13 防處同屋宇署都有分工,但係消防喺火警把關嗰個工作,佢係有個最終嘅責任喺度 14 嘅,呢個佢已經講咗㗎嘞。 15 佢如果好籠統咁講,就發泡膠呢個問題,係唔係佢哋職權範圍,我哋知道有個 16 爭議係同發泡膠有關嘅。如果話呢個完全唔係消防要處理嘅範疇,呢一個講法你哋 17 屋宇署嘅立場會覺得係準確定唔準確? 18 張玉清女士:我相信其實每個部門可以喺佢個框架底下,佢個法律框架底下,去就住佢嗰個 19 法規去執行一啲法例嘅,咁而--譬如個發泡膠方面,我覺得其實喺呢件事件裏面, 20 其實我哋係會去--因為我哋有規管嘅,所以我哋會去執法嘅。 21 杜淦堃資深大律師:換句話講,可唔可以咁講?個執法嘅監管範圍可能有重疊嘅? 22 張玉清女士:冇錯。 23 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係大家都會考慮去執法嘅。而你就講發泡膠呢個範疇,平時如果喺個 24 工地用發泡膠封窗嘅,你哋係會去執法嘅,係咪? 25 張玉清女士:如果封窗嘅,我哋係會執法,因為佢可能係一個保護措施或者係一個工序裏 26 面,咁我哋係會執法嘅。 27 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白。另外一個我哋關注嘅議題就係,當然即係明白有時有重疊嘅,大 28 家嗰個管轄嘅範疇。點樣去劃分,有咩嘢機制去溝通,喺重疊嘅時候點樣去做? 29 張玉清女士:其實我哋同--我哋自己本身,我哋有一個內部指引嘅,我哋有個manual 嘅, 30 咁嗰個manual 都出咗一段時間㗎嘞,其實當中係有講到同消防大家點樣樣去互相 31 做一個(English Spoken)嘅,咁當中裏面,其實有--我相信上個禮拜都有見 32 過一張memo 嘅,就係消防點樣(English Spoken)過嚟畀我哋嘅,咁亦都有 33 一張就係我哋點樣(English Spoken)畀佢嘅。 34 咁呢個其實係之前一個溝通嘅機制嚟嘅。咁呢啲係一啲常見嘅一個情況。但係 35 嗰個-- 我哋嗰個(English Spoken )都有講到嘅,就話即係如果唔喺呢個 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第二十天

12 本謄本由Epiq 編製 memo 底下,或者係一啲常設底下,其實我哋係會互相溝通嘅。咁亦都個manual 1 都講咗,就話我哋會有需要,會有一啲聯合行動嘅。 2 正正就係應該舊年嘅年尾,我哋同消防都就住工業大廈個消防安全嗰方面,做 3 咗一個聯合行動嘅,應該12 月尾去做嘅,其實係。咁大家就係就住自己個--即係 4 兩邊一齊去做,就係就住個可以做得到嘅嘢嘅地方,大家互相配合去處理。 5 陸啟康法官:我可唔可以想問一問,大家都知道即係ICU,我哋嗰個背照點解會有ICU 出 6 嚟,咁呢啲溝通係你哋同消防溝通,抑或你知唔知道譬如如果ICU 要同消防溝通, 7 佢係會通過你哋去溝通,佢哋自己溝通,抑或你知唔知? 8 張玉清女士:呢個我唔知嘅,係。 9 陸啟康法官:唔,唔緊要。 10 杜淦堃資深大律師:不如我哋講一講ICU,就起碼你哋同佢哋嘅關係,我相信要亦都講番畀 11 大家知。我哋知道就宏福苑,你喺證人供詞14 段都解釋咗,因為居屋唔需要根據 12 《建築物條例》嘅範圍去興建嘅,因為政府你哋自己起,唔係私人樓宇,雖然宏福 13 苑後來就買斷咗畀啲私人業主,但係你哋自從1992 年開始,就將居屋呢個監管嘅 14 佢哋建築呢個範疇,就交咗畀房屋局常秘嘅辦公室裏面,轄下嘅獨立審查組就係 15 ICU 進行監管嘅,嗰個歷史背景係咁樣樣嘅,係咪? 16 張玉清女士:係。 17 杜淦堃資深大律師:好,你嘅第66 到67 段,你亦都講到ICU 喺好似宏福苑呢啲建築嘅監 18 管權力,如果我哋冇理解錯,其實個權力係由屋宇署署長授權畀ICU 嘅,咁講準唔 19 準確? 20 張玉清女士:冇錯。 21 杜淦堃資深大律師:而宏福苑呢啲嘅監管條例,其實亦都係根據《建築物條例》而去處理 22 嘅,係咪? 23 張玉清女士:係。 24 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係佢哋用番《建築物條例》去處理? 25 張玉清女士:用番《建築物條例》去處理。 26 杜淦堃資深大律師:而呢個亦都係一個--即係法律上高我哋理解係一個正式嘅書面授權,即 27 係有個我哋叫(English Spoken)? 28 張玉清女士:冇錯。 29 杜淦堃資深大律師:就將呢個法例底下嗰個權力同責任就交咗畀ICU? 30 張玉清女士:冇錯。 31 杜淦堃資深大律師:所以就宏福苑譬如呢啲項目而言,我哋知道因為佢係居屋,監督RC 同 32 RI 有冇做好,你頭先解釋畀我哋聽,喺每一個階段嘅責任,呢個工作就你哋嘅立場 33 就係應該係ICU 去處理,就唔係你哋,係咪? 34 張玉清女士:冇錯。 35 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係你就提到另外一個範疇嘅問題,如果我哋去到67 段,雖然ICU 有 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第二十天

13 本謄本由Epiq 編製 建築嘅監管權,但係其實佢哋就冇權力對RI 或者RC 作出監控或者紀律處分嘅,佢 1 哋就會轉介番畀你哋,係咪? 2 張玉清女士:冇錯,補充少少。 3 杜淦堃資深大律師:好。 4 張玉清女士:如果發現有問題,其實佢哋要做(English Spoken)嘅,即係佢做完晒成 5 個(English Spoken)之後,先至上法庭先至係我哋(English Spoken ) 6 幫佢將嗰個(English Spoken)畀(English Spoken)去睇嘅。 7 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁紀律處分呢?即係唔係去法庭嗰啲,係咪都係一樣? 8 張玉清女士:一樣,都係要做咗-- 佢要做咗個基本嘅(English Spoken ),做完個 9 (English Spoken),畀我哋透過(English Spoken)再去考慮嘅。 10 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係佢唔係發覺有問題,交咗畀你哋去做,其實係佢係做咗有關嘅調 11 查,先至畀個file 你哋,咁樣講啱? 12 張玉清女士:冇錯,係。 13 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋知道有個MOU 係可能有關屋宇署同房委會之間有個--你提過有個 14 MOU 嘅,喺J1-1/2043 頁,麻煩你都睇一睇當中幾段。我哋或者首先去睇2.1 15 同2.2 段,呢度係個MOU 係英文,但係如果好籠統咁去解釋,睇下你同唔同意? 16 ICU 嘅成立當然係為咗對房委會嘅樓宇,根據《建築物條例》嘅要求,就等佢哋進 17 行一啲獨立嘅監管,所以就有呢個機制。而ICU 嘅成立就為咗確保房委會個項目嘅 18 審查工作,同埋屋宇署嘅慣例其實係有一個一致性嘅。 19 張玉清女士:冇錯。 20 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋睇第2.4 段,就講到嗰個授權嘅問題。呢度講到譬如ICU 亦都係 21 根據屋宇署署長授權,對居屋同埋賣咗出去嘅房委會樓宇執行法定嘅建築規管,咁 22 呢度你亦都講咗,你見到有關嘅法規你都寫咗出嚟。 23 我想跟住麻煩你睇一睇嘅就係第 3 段,第 3 段呢個就個標題叫做 24 “(English Spoken)”,即係呢個係一啲措施,令到佢哋同你哋用番同樣嗰 25 個基準去進行佢哋嘅工作。所以呢度就提到,3.1 嗰度,其實嗰個機制係你哋會借 26 調一啲高級嘅專業人員到ICU 嗰度,係去提供一啲專業意見,包括建築條例相關嘅 27 一啲嘅理解嘅? 28 張玉清女士:冇錯。 29 杜淦堃資深大律師:而呢啲ICU 嘅職員會喺屋宇署嗰個委員會度做一啲嘅委員,亦都。咁我 30 哋跟住見到3.2 嗰度,就提到咁樣樣嘅,ICU 你會見到就會係六個月就向屋宇署提 31 交報告,而呢度亦都會提到,佢哋去除咗提交報告之外,佢哋亦都會向--屋宇署會 32 向ICU 進行一啲(English Spoken),去確保ICU 審查工作同你哋一致嘅。 33 即係換句話講,你哋會(English Spoken)番佢哋,如果我籠統咁講啱唔啱? 34 張玉清女士:啱嘅。 35 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想問下你,實際上高嘅一啲運作,呢個其實潘玉龍先生嗰個證供都有 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第二十天

14 本謄本由Epiq 編製 提到嘅,但係如果你睇下你可唔可以幫一幫到我哋,佢提到屋宇署借調去ICU 嘅人 1 員,其實實質上高,通常借調過去嘅工作範疇係乜嘢? 2 張玉清女士:其實我哋係借調咗三個同事畀佢嘅,一個就應該係結構工程師,係高級結構工 3 程師,有兩個就係高級屋宇測量師嚟嘅,佢哋個工作主要都係提供一個-- 有個 4 (English Spoken)嘅角色,咁就住如果係ICU 有啲咩嘢疑問,咁同埋我哋有 5 啲咩嘢更新嘅資料,即係做法,都會係透過呢個(English Spoken)畀佢一個 6 資料嚟嘅,係。咁最主要其實係一個橋樑,即係將兩邊嗰個做法可以令致有個一致 7 性喺度。 8 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係其實嗰三個位係常設嘅,可唔可以咁講? 9 張玉清女士:常設嘅,係。 10 杜淦堃資深大律師:所以其實ICU 嘅工作而言,其實係你哋屋宇署去畀資源佢哋去做,而其 11 中就包括呢三位。咁亦都係有--可唔可以咁講,其實係個溝通好緊要,而你哋都有 12 啲監管嘅責任去睇下佢哋做成點,所以先有個(English Spoken),咁講啱唔 13 啱? 14 張玉清女士:我同意嘅,但係個資源性我其實唔係好理解,係。 15 杜淦堃資深大律師:哦,即係其實我指緊嘅主要係,你畀佢哋主要係人力,呢三個人? 16 張玉清女士:明白,係。 17 杜淦堃資深大律師:仲有冇其他(English Spoken)畀佢哋㗎你? 18 張玉清女士:主要呢三個人,但係其實係喺平時嘅工作階段,我哋都有我哋自己BD 同埋 19 ICU 都係有一啲工--有啲對口嘅,令到個溝通係會更加好嘅。 20 杜淦堃資深大律師:我諗大家都可能聽過呢個講法,但係我都想你清楚咁講一次。雖然你哋 21 有分工,同ICU,但係就好似宏福苑呢啲大維修,監管宏業、鴻毅方面,其實你哋 22 係冇參與嘅,呢個係ICU 嘅工作? 23 張玉清女士:正確。 24 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係換句話講,除咗你哋嘅借調人員可能會有一啲參與之外,其實你哋 25 係冇其他嘅任何參與,只係佢同其他居屋一樣,佢做咗,佢可能喺佢嘅--畀你哋嘅 26 報告裏面會提到,你哋可能會(English Spoken ) check 佢哋嗰陣,就 27 check 下佢哋嘅工作,咁籠統咁講啱唔啱? 28 張玉清女士:啱。 29 杜淦堃資深大律師:其實你頭先都強調咗,其實借調人畀佢哋一個目的就係希望大家個標準 30 一致,咁樣去睇件事啱唔啱,即係雖然佢係居屋,佢賣咗出去畀私人業主,咁冇理 31 由喺執法或者你用嘅標準同其他私人嘅屋苑有一啲好大嘅出入嘅,所以嗰個一致性 32 都係其中一個嗰個機制嘅背後理由? 33 張玉清女士:冇錯。 34 杜淦堃資深大律師:好,我想同你講一講一啲實質啲嘅例子,同埋大家關心嘅例子,我哋開 35 始講棚網先。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第二十天

15 本謄本由Epiq 編製 張玉清女士:唔。 1 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋嘅理解,其實唔同嘅部門對於監管呢個棚架呢啲保護網嘅阻燃性都 2 有一啲嘅參與嘅,譬如屋宇署同埋勞工處都會有嘅。 3 張玉清女士:係。 4 杜淦堃資深大律師:同意? 5 張玉清女士:同意。 6 杜淦堃資深大律師:因為你嘅同事余先生都講咗,喺佢第一份證人供詞嘅第28 段,如果我 7 哋睇WS/1819,大家都可以睇到佢嘅講法,其實佢個講法就係講到棚網係屬於建築 8 物建造規例第16 條所講嘅一啲預防措施嚟嘅。 9 張玉清女士:冇錯。 10 杜淦堃資深大律師:所以係受到監管,而佢亦都嘅講法就係所以棚網係需要係一個適當嘅預 11 防措施,呢個理解你係同意嘅,係咪? 12 張玉清女士:同意。 13 杜淦堃資深大律師:而如果我哋去第35 段,呢度都講番如果,又係因為佢比較--或者我哋 14 縮細少少可以睇多啲有關嘅段落同下一頁,佢呢度都詳細咁樣去講咗嘅,其實係我 15 頭先講過嘅《建築物營造規例》(《建築物(建造)規例》?),佢第第3 條其實 16 提過建築工程裏面所使用嘅物料均須有性質同埋品質方面係適合佢一啲預定嘅用 17 途,咁呢個好明顯背後嘅原因係啲乜嘢。而有關規例嘅3(2) ,你呢度可能睇唔 18 到,我都可以同你講,其實就係遵從3(1),其實所使用嘅有關物料應該係需要有 19 啲認可測試。 20 張玉清女士:冇錯。 21 杜淦堃資深大律師:而需要有作充分嘅測試,呢個喺有關條例裏面有,我唔麻煩你去睇。 22 張玉清女士:唔。 23 杜淦堃資深大律師:佢呢段講到有關嘅建築專業人士包括RI 同埋個RC 都係有責任確保呢啲 24 棚網係符合一啲阻燃標準嚟嘅,亦都係透過一啲證書或者認可嘅化驗室嘅報告裏面 25 去核實嘅,呢個係你哋嘅理解同埋一貫嘅理解做法嚟嘅? 26 張玉清女士:冇錯。 27 杜淦堃資深大律師:余先生講到嗰啲認可化驗室,即係啲(English Spoken),以你嘅 28 解釋,其實你可唔可以講到畀我哋聽屋宇署係點樣去揀呢啲認可化驗室,有冇啲咩 29 嘢基準,呢啲你講唔講到畀我哋聽? 30 張玉清女士:我或者儘量去講。 31 杜淦堃資深大律師:好呀。 32 張玉清女士:我即係儘量去講。 33 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白。 34 張玉清女士:其實香港啲化驗所係有一個(English Spoken ),有個(English 35 Spoken)嘅,咁呢個我唔記得中文個講法。喺(English Spoken )底下係呢 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第二十天

16 本謄本由Epiq 編製 啲化驗所係香港認可嘅一個化驗所,同埋佢做嘅測試係有一個認證喺度嘅,而 1 (English Spoken)亦都會同其他啲國家會有一個互應嘅。 2 杜淦堃資深大律師:我都想問一問你嘅就係,余先生亦都提到就棚網而言,你哋有幾個文件 3 都同佢有關嘅,有一個(English Spoken)(《作業守則》),有一啲《作業 4 備考》(English Spoken),同埋有啲通告函件嘅,嗰啲你哋叫做(English 5 Spoken),呢幾樣嘢都有規管過啲棚網嘅。 6 張玉清女士:冇錯。 7 杜淦堃資深大律師:雖然呢個可能係你啲同事要處理嘅範疇,但係嘅相關嘅《作業守則》我 8 都想問下你,你都會見過嘅,係咪? 9 張玉清女士:見過。 10 杜淦堃資深大律師:你熟悉嘛,你對呢個? 11 張玉清女士:其實有兩本,一本就係拆樓,另外一本就直情係個起個棚架有個(English 12 Spoken)。 13 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想你睇一睇有一份特別嘅文件,就係屋宇署喺2023 年3 月21 日發 14 出一個通函,通告函件嚟,喺J1-2/5915。落少少,我哋之前聽證會都有睇過呢 15 份文件嘅。呢個文件個背景應該係海員之家嗰個四級大火之後發出嘅,如果你睇個 16 日期,你清楚呢件事嘛? 17 張玉清女士:知道。 18 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢度似乎講到就係所有為遮蓋外牆裝置嘅保護網、保護幕,跟住有啲講 19 到防水油布同埋塑膠帆布,呢度講到明就係應該具備適當嘅阻燃特性,然之後就講 20 咗一啲嘅標準嘅,有幾個唔同嘅標準嘅,你見到,係咪? 21 張玉清女士:見到。 22 杜淦堃資深大律師:而喺你哋冇--就呢次海員之家大火之後,就呢個範疇其實你哋係有跟進 23 嘅,我哋見到喺中環華懋大廈舊年10 月有個棚架嘅大火都係,屋宇署其實都係有 24 再發出一啲嘅函件,要求所有註冊專業人士,裏面我見到有個(English 25 Spoken)叫做PBP 嘅,就唔係喺呢度嘅,我想問一問你,就係PBP 包括啲咩 26 嘢? 27 張玉清女士:PBP 就係(English Spoken),其實就係包AP,RSE,即係嗰個註冊結構 28 工程師、註冊嘅(English Spoken),嗰個註冊土力工程師,咁亦都包括個註 29 冊檢驗人員。 30 杜淦堃資深大律師:RI。 31 張玉清女士:RI。 32 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係RI 應該會知道喺舊年嘅華懋棚架大火之後,其實亦都有再提醒過 33 佢哋關於阻燃性嗰個要求嘅問題。你睇J,同一個文件夾6192,即係呢個係比較新 34 同埋針對棚架外牆嘅物料,呢個你哋再次提咗個業界,係咪? 35 張玉清女士:冇錯。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第二十天

17 本謄本由Epiq 編製 杜淦堃資深大律師:另外,我都想你講一講嘅就係,我哋見到有另外一份直頭係叫做《竹棚 1 架工作安全守則》嘅,呢個就喺2017 年已經有,喺D1 文件夾嘅633 頁--632 2 頁開始,D1。呢個都係--你都熟悉呢份文件,係咪? 3 張玉清女士:呢份係勞工處嘅。 4 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢份文件勞工處,但係我都想問一問你幫唔幫到我哋。如果你去654 5 頁,勞工處制訂呢啲文件嘅時候有冇諮詢你哋?如果你講唔到嘅就講唔到。 6 張玉清女士:我唔肯定。 7 杜淦堃資深大律師:我都淨係想睇一睇個文件,等大家知道我哋講緊啲乜嘢,如果你唔肯定 8 嘅話,我冇需要麻煩你。喺654 頁,我哋留意到4.4.4(d)嗰度有咁講嘅,你見 9 到佢第一句“(English Spoken)",換句話講,你都知道就唔只係你哋,就 10 勞工處方面,其實對於呢啲保護嘅物料,嗰個防火性都係有要求嘅,係咪? 11 張玉清女士:呢度睇到,係嘅。 12 杜淦堃資深大律師:因為你冇睇過呢個文件,我唔麻煩你。我都想同你講番嘅,就係你哋因 13 為RI 同埋RC 喺平時嘅情況之下,我哋居屋就分開嚟講,都係你哋去監管。你哋如 14 果去睇下佢哋有冇遵守譬如相關條例、作業通告呢啲守則嘅時候,你哋會去採取一 15 啲行動去檢驗嗰啲物料嘅,係咪? 16 張玉清女士:如果就住棚網呢個,而喺大火之前,其實我哋係冇抽取樣本去做測試,我哋都 17 係主要係睇番佢嗰個證書嘅。 18 杜淦堃資深大律師:好,余先生亦我諗等大家知道,其實因為唔係你嘅證人供詞,如果余先 19 生嘅講法就喺佢第18 段,喺WS/1816,佢呢度咁講嘅,你見到佢最後咁講,佢提 20 到“(English Spoken)",即係換句話講,你嘅理解就係雖然講到話會有啲 21 (English Spoken)嘅,但係就棚網而言,大火之前你哋嘅做法都係靠啲證書 22 嘅,係咪? 23 張玉清女士:冇錯。 24 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係換句話講,如果唔係居屋嘅維修工程,係私人樓宇嘅,如果你去監 25 管RC 同埋RI,就棚網而言,你確定其實係你哋主要審查嘅做法都係睇證書? 26 張玉清女士:冇錯。 27 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想問下你,可能亦都--如果你講唔到講唔到,因為你唔係余先生。咁 28 佢講“(English Spoken)“,你知唔知道佢指嘅意思係乜?或者有冇第二啲 29 你嘅認知裏面... 30 張玉清女士:有嘅。 31 杜淦堃資深大律師:係。 32 張玉清女士:其實講緊嘅就會包括起其實係起新樓嗰陣時,咁起新樓嗰陣時,我哋真係會喺 33 現場睇一啲測試嘅,例如啲石屎嗰個強度,呢啲係我哋會睇。另外,就係紮樁,如 34 果做地基工作,打完支樁之後要去紮樁嘅,睇番佢嗰個承載力嗰啲,呢個我哋係會 35 現場去睇嘅。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第二十天

18 本謄本由Epiq 編製 杜淦堃資深大律師:換句話講,如果就棚網而言,因為你哋都冇做過呢啲測試,你都幫唔到 1 我哋講其實係如果要做測試嘅基準,或者你哋其實過去有冇認知,大家有冇落去個 2 工地去做過其他嘅測試,譬如ICU 嗰邊面係點做,呢個我相信你都講唔到,係咪? 3 就棚網而言。 4 張玉清女士:就棚網而言,就喺之前我哋真係冇呢個測試,係。 5 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白。好,我另外一樣嘢想問你嘅,就係如果有人畀張證書你哋,你哋 6 會唔會做任何嘢去核實嗰個證書嗰個準確性呢?點解咁問,就係因為我知道余先生 7 提到喺大火之後,其實你哋都發現咗唔止一單,都有多過一單假證書嘅情況出現。 8 我想問番你,即係因為你哋冇落去個(English Spoken)度做,靠張證書,如 9 果張證書又係假嘅,咁有明顯嘅問題? 10 張玉清女士:係,其實我哋揸住張證書會睇番幾樣嘢嘅,第一,就係出嗰張證書係邊一間化 11 驗所,會唔會亦都係之前頭先我所講,就係喺(English Spoken)或者如果係 12 內地嘅,係唔係有一個互認。如果有懷疑,我哋可以其實透過-- (English 13 Spoken)係喺香港係一個認證機構。 14 杜淦堃資深大律師:或者等我哋知道你講緊嘅係啲乜嘢,如果我哋去睇番J1-2/6202 頁, 15 你睇番第1 頁,份文件。睇番你份文件係咩嘢嚟嘅先,你再上,係,呢個係《作業 16 備考》嚟嘅。 17 張玉清女士:係。 18 杜淦堃資深大律師:如果你睇6202,H 嗰度,你講緊嘅HOKLAS,呢個係唔係H-O-K-L- 19 A-S? 20 張玉清女士:冇錯。 21 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係換句話講,呢個就係嗰個實驗室嘅認可計劃,咁如果你哋見到一張 22 證書就係HOKLAS 嘅(English Spoken)咗實驗室去出嘅,咁你就會滿意,係 23 咪? 24 張玉清女士:都會係再望一望番嘅,同埋如果佢唔係香港嘅,咁就要睇番係唔係嗰個互認機 25 構。 26 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係我想問嘅其實係除咗睇張證書,你哋會唔會進一步去了解番呢個係 27 真定假嘅呢?因為的的確確余先生嘅證供提到,如果我哋睇番佢證人供詞嘅53 28 段,喺829 頁。呢度829 頁你見到53 段有個標題,叫(English Spoken)二 29 百三十個(English Spoken),呢個應該係針對大火之後嘅一啲行動嚟嘅,係 30 咪? 31 張玉清女士:冇錯。 32 杜淦堃資深大律師:你哋就發覺--你哋要求二百三十棟私人樓宇其實即刻將啲棚網下架嘅? 33 張玉清女士:冇錯。 34 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係大家都可能經過好多工地就冇咗個網嘅,其實喺呢個情況之下,你 35 哋發覺真係有啲假嘅文書,係咪? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第二十天

19 本謄本由Epiq 編製 張玉清女士:冇錯。 1 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想問下即係之前同埋而家大火之後,你哋有冇做過啲咩嘢去核實嗰啲 2 文書嘅真偽? 3 張玉清女士:其實而家會係有個(English Spoken),即係喺個制度底下去... 4 杜淦堃資深大律師:Sorry,你頭先講嗰個字係咩嘢? 5 張玉清女士:(English Spoken),即係... 6 杜淦堃資深大律師:(English Spoken)。 7 張玉清女士:係,咁睇住嗰個物料出廠,其實我未必係咁詳細,因為主要都係余生嘅。 8 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白。 9 張玉清女士:但係我大概知道就係會由買嗰個物料有個認證,咁個認證之後,就係會嚟到香 10 港,亦都嗰個認證--之後就係落到去地盤就係要做一啲測試嘅。 11 杜淦堃資深大律師:或者畀個圖你睇,睇下會唔會幫到你。J1-2/6205,去番頭先個文件 12 夾。你想講係唔係呢個? 13 張玉清女士:係,係,冇錯。 14 陸啟康法官:J... 15 杜淦堃資深大律師:J1-2/6205。呢個係大火之後引入? 16 張玉清女士:係,冇錯。 17 杜淦堃資深大律師:喺大火前其實就係睇到張證書之後,係唔係都係冇呢啲咁嘅機制去睇下 18 佢係唔係真嘅? 19 張玉清女士:冇錯。 20 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢個係根據2025 年10 月19 號出嘅一個《作業備考》去引入嘅新嘅 21 程序嚟嘅,我亦都見到喺個《作業備考》嗰度,如果我哋去番6203,睇第10 段, 22 呢度亦都就有講到你哋而家嘅做法,就係真係會有啲實地嘅抽查,有啲(English 23 Spoken)嘅。 24 張玉清女士:冇錯。 25 杜淦堃資深大律師:如果我冇理解錯似乎而家嘅做法,就係喺現場會隨機喺不同嘅層數,即 26 係唔同位置度取樣去交,跟住交畀土木工程拓展署轄下嘅工務測試所或者政府化驗 27 所檢驗嘅,係咪? 28 張玉清女士:冇錯。 29 杜淦堃資深大律師:所以你哋而家個做法就係唔係話喺嗰度取樣,喺工地度做啲實地嘅測 30 試,就係搦去lab 嗰度驗? 31 張玉清女士:其實我哋不嬲都唔會喺--如果棚網,我哋唔會喺實地度做測試。 32 杜淦堃資深大律師:講唔講到個原因? 33 張玉清女士:因為如果喺--其實因為要一個測試標準,其實個標準就係佢要喺一個真係特定 34 嘅環境底下去做嘅。同埋據我所知,如果嗰塊棚網要去做測試,其實打直同打橫係 35 有分別嘅,所以個lab 其實係有一啲準則嘅。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第二十天

20 本謄本由Epiq 編製 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白。即係所以其實就係我諗嗰個--可唔可以咁講呢?而家嗰個做法就 1 係去確保個測試嘅準確性? 2 張玉清女士:冇錯。 3 杜淦堃資深大律師:好,既然你哋之前冇做過呢個測試,但係宏福苑呢個例子就我哋可以留 4 番問ICU,因為正如你所講係佢哋去做。另外,我想你幫一幫我哋嘅,就係就你哋 5 嘅立場,我哋見到宏福苑呢啲嘅屋苑,咁多棟大廈一齊搭棚其實一齊做,我哋想探 6 討嗰個分期進行嗰個必要性同埋可行性。雖然未有專家證供,但係我諗大家都知道 7 喺今次大火裏面,大廈外牆一啲可燃嘅物品其實就係令到嗰個火嘅荷載量,個 8 (English Spoken)高咗咁多,所以燒得咁快。而你都留意到,即係其實華懋 9 嗰次同今次都係一啲嘅外牆嘅大火,一啲(English Spoken),有一個題目就 10 係其實根本應唔應該咁多棟大廈一齊去做大維修,咁多棟大廈都一齊將啲可燃嘅物 11 品包住棟大廈嘅。我想問下就你哋嘅立場,大火前、大火後你可唔以講到畀我哋 12 聽,其實你哋個立場係點? 13 張玉清女士:或者我講一講個理念點解會即係有咁多棟樓一齊去做維修。 14 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白。 15 張玉清女士:其實即係如果係喺強制驗樓計劃底下,其實就係我哋都係以風險為本去揀嗰啲 16 樓嘅。如果嗰個屋苑有啲樓宇其實係已經有問題,因為我哋有個計分制,如果計分 17 出嚟嗰座樓宇已經係高分嘅,即係佢係有個危險,而個危險通常都係因為外牆有啲 18 嘢剝落,有啲嘢跌落嚟。 19 杜淦堃資深大律師:跌落嚟。 20 張玉清女士:係,咁呢個係一個高風險嘅,因應隨時會有人𢱕嚫嘅。咁因應呢個原因,所以 21 就係如果喺個計分制底下,嗰啲樓宇係高分,咁佢嘅同一個屋苑,所以叫樓宇集 22 群,我哋都會揀選埋去做一個強制驗樓嘅,個原因就係其實之前係有啲居民嘅意見 23 畀番我哋,就係如果我揀一座,唔揀第二座,其實喺佢個運作上面係會有一啲問 24 題,因為或者係同一個契約,即係個DMC 底下,如果一座做,一座唔做,佢哋個處 25 理係有實際上面一啲困難嘅。所以其實後期就係我哋嘅考慮點,就會係其實就係同 26 一個屋苑,因為佢會係同一個時間去起,佢個建造嘅方式同埋用料都係相約嘅,所 27 以如果座樓有危險,佢其他嘅樓宇都有相對高嘅危險。 28 杜淦堃資深大律師:或者我講一講清楚少少,即係八座都要做呢個我哋明白,我哋想針對嘅 29 係唔係應該八座同一時間一齊做,呢個可唔可以幫到我哋? 30 張玉清女士:明白。其實係唔係八座都需要一齊,其實呢個就真係好睇嗰個合約點樣樣去決 31 定,同埋其實個施工嘅安排,其實係可以喺安排上面有唔同嘅做法,可以分階段去 32 做。 33 杜淦堃資深大律師:或者咁講啱唔啱?喺大火之前,你哋似乎就呢方面,你講到可能有其他 34 嘅考慮,就冇一個硬性嘅規管。大火之後,我相信可唔可以咁講?聽你咁講就係亦 35 都有好多嘅因素,亦都冇一個諗法就係話一定要分開嚟做? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第二十天

21 本謄本由Epiq 編製 張玉清女士:我哋其實最近出咗個指引,都係提議番即係嗰個專業人士同埋個承建商喺做佢 1 個工程之前係要做一啲風險評估嘅,亦都可以建議番個業主係分階段去做,而事實 2 上亦都有一啲屋苑都係分階段去處理嗰個維修。 3 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係換句話講,呢個就留番畀佢哋考慮,但係就要嗌評估番個風險? 4 張玉清女士:係。 5 杜淦堃資深大律師:而或者呢個提醒,就喺大火之後先發生嘅,係咪? 6 張玉清女士:係。 7 杜淦堃資深大律師:今年3 月,係咪? 8 張玉清女士:3 月,係。 9 杜淦堃資深大律師:主席,我跟住會去發泡膠嘅問題,可能要一段時間。 10 陸啟康法官:我哋押後十分鐘。 11 杜淦堃資深大律師:十分鐘。 12 陸啟康法官:今日好似比較緊張啲。 13 杜淦堃資深大律師:今日會。 14 陸啟康法官:十分鐘。 15

16 11 時12 分聆訊押後 17 11 時22 分聆訊恢復 18

19 陸啟康法官:杜大律師,因為仲有兩份嘅證人供詞頭先你提過,你唔打算叫佢哋出嚟㗎嘛? 20 杜淦堃資深大律師:因為大部分嘅內容應該都唔係會有好大嘅爭議性,但係我覺得因為... 21 陸啟康法官:我會將... 22 杜淦堃資深大律師:係。 23 陸啟康法官:係嘞,因為佢哋兩個有幾多一啲嘅資料。 24 杜淦堃資深大律師:係。 25 陸啟康法官:咁呢啲資料可能喺嗰個報告度都會引用。 26 杜淦堃資深大律師:冇錯。 27 陸啟康法官:咁所以我想將佢哋兩個嘅證人供詞都一併上網。 28 杜淦堃資深大律師:冇錯。 29 陸啟康法官:雖然佢哋係唔會今日出席。 30 杜淦堃資深大律師:冇錯。 31 陸啟康法官:但係我都想佢哋嘅證供擺上網畀公眾睇到。 32 杜淦堃資深大律師:主席,我哋同意有呢個必要性其實,多謝主席。 33 陸啟康法官:唔該。 34 杜淦堃資深大律師:張女士,我之後想麻煩你同我哋講一講發泡膠嘅問題,即係你都明白大 35 家都關注呢個議題。有一個講法,就係話其實用發泡膠封窗,呢個係一個行業慣常 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第二十天

22 本謄本由Epiq 編製 嘅做法嚟嘅,喺呢啲大維修嗰度,呢個同你嘅認知係咪一樣? 1 張玉清女士:喺我嘅認知,就我未見過用發泡膠喇。但係我想補充少少,其實喺呢件事件之 2 後,部門係做咗一個巡查嘅,我哋巡查咗四百幾棟私人大廈做緊大維條嘅工程,我 3 哋冇發現用發泡膠,係呀。 4 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔。當然可能有唔同嘅原因喇。 5 張玉清女士:係嘞,係嘞。 6 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係你嘅講法就係你自己--據於你嘅理解,喺呢個大火之前你冇聽過做 7 大維修嘅時候係用發泡膠嚟做? 8 張玉清女士:我冇見過囉,我自己。 9 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋之後會睇到余先生嘅證供,其實余先生嘅證供第74 段咁講嘅,佢 10 就話喺WS1/837 頁,似乎佢都係唔同意呢個係慣常嘅做法,因為佢講到--你見到 11 佢呢度講到“(English Spoken)”,即係似乎佢個--畀我哋個感覺都係唔常 12 見嘅呢件事。我想同你探討嘅就係嗰個規管個問題,我都想你解一解釋,就係如果 13 我哋睇番你哋熟悉嘅《建築物(建造)規例》去J1-2/5745 頁,我哋睇到第8 部 14 嘅,第8 部其實係一啲對外牆、覆蓋物同埋幕牆嘅規定嚟嘅,有關發泡膠遮窗嘅 15 呢,除咗你見到呢個第8 部之外,其實第10 部都可能有關係,你去到5751,呢 16 啲亦都係走火安全,呢一度就係走火安全嘅規定嚟嘅,裏面有啲關於耐火結構嘅要 17 求。喺我帶你去睇呢啲條例之前,或者你都講唔講到畀我哋聽,如果籠統咁講,就 18 呢啲封窗嘅發泡膠喺你哋嘅角度嚟講,其實係有冇規管嘅呢用咩物料? 19 張玉清女士:我想再理解清楚,係話用發泡膠去做一個... 20 杜淦堃資深大律師:或者我籠統啲咁去問,就呢啲封窗嘅物料,喺一個做緊大維修嘅地盤裏 21 面,根據你哋嘅認知,對於個物料有冇規管同埋有啲咩嘢規管? 22 張玉清女士:如果係一個工序佢要做一個維修,而佢有一啲嘅工序,臨時措施喇,其實我哋 23 係會喺嗰個《建築物(建造)規例》嘅第16 條裏面有講咗喇,係呀。 24 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋睇661 頁,B2/661,唔好意思。如果我哋睇番第16 條,你所指 25 嘅係咪話佢哋承建商其實要用適當嘅建造方法同埋程序,同埋採取適當嘅預防措 26 施? 27 張玉清女士:冇錯。 28 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係你哋嘅解讀就係因為呢條條例,所以其實封窗嘅物料都係應該有規 29 管嘅? 30 張玉清女士:冇錯。 31 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋另外亦都見到喺《建築物消防安全守則》呢一個文件,如果你去睇 32 B2/1159 頁,如果我哋睇番呢一度(f),5.6(f)呢度咁講嘅“(English 33 Spoken)”,呢度我知道佢提到我哋叫做“(English Spoken)”,呢個應 34 該係消防處主要關心嘅條例嚟嘅,係咪? 35 張玉清女士:冇錯。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第二十天

23 本謄本由Epiq 編製 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係就你哋部門呢,你哋部門都會唔會考慮呢個條例裏面嘅要求? 1 張玉清女士:我哋會睇到呢,就如果係一個唔合適嘅物料,如果用咗喺嗰個建築某個位置, 2 其實會引起消防嗰個安全嘅問題,所以我哋如果係見到呢啲情況,其實我哋都會執 3 法囉。 4 杜淦堃資深大律師:另外我都想你睇睇你哋熟悉啲㗎嘞,APP-70,喺J1-1/688,如果你 5 睇番4(c)嗰度,我見到--呢一個有另外一個要求嚟嘅,落少少你就會睇到,呢 6 度“(English Spoken)”嘅,呢度咁講嘅,如果我睇4(c)個要求呢,似乎 7 遮蓋外牆嘅物料其實唔可以阻礙一啲自然嘅通風同埋採光,所以使用不透明嘅發泡 8 膠遮住啲窗呢,其實可能都會令到市民係--或者居住喺裏面嘅居民,其實見唔到屋 9 外面嘅情況,呢個都會造成一啲嘅危險。 10 張玉清女士:同意。 11 杜淦堃資深大律師:所以你哋嘅立場會唔會係咁呢?或者睇番余先生個供詞可能會幫到你去 12 解釋畀大家聽,去番WS1/836 頁,我哋睇番72 段,縮一縮細,等睇到全段。余 13 先生就似乎都講得好清楚,喺佢嘅理解就係--我哋睇過一啲有關嘅條例同埋《作業 14 守則》,佢就覺得發泡膠封窗其實係會違反我哋睇過嘅條例,雖然呢個要進一步調 15 查,但係呢個似乎係佢嘅睇法嚟㗎? 16 張玉清女士:係。 17 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢個亦都代表咗你哋部門嘅睇法喇? 18 張玉清女士:冇錯。 19 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想你幫一幫我嘅呢,就係如果我哋睇一睇同一個文件夾648 頁,我哋 20 見到ICU 嘅古小平先生,喺第59 段嗰度,如果我哋睇成段呢,我好簡單咁講,似 21 乎古先生嘅講法就係佢認為「法定條文其實並未就用發泡膠板作為臨時嘅保護有任 22 何嘅標準作出一啲具體嘅要求嘅」。佢亦都講話佢個理解,就似乎同你頭先講有啲 23 唔同,就話「使用發泡膠板亦不能推斷為違反《建築物(建造)規例》嘅第16 條」 24 嘅。聽完你頭先畀我哋嘅解釋,可唔可以咁講呢?如果睇古先生呢度呢個講法,相 25 信同你頭先嘅解釋係有出入,你哋嘅睇法唔同,咁講啱唔啱? 26 張玉清女士:可能呢個位置呢,我覺得可能要由古先生再去解釋嗰個情況。 27 杜淦堃資深大律師:當然佢會有佢嘅解釋,但係from 你哋部門嘅立場,你同唔同意佢呢個 28 講法? 29 張玉清女士:我哋會覺得如果係大規模用呢個發泡膠板去封窗呢,其實係一個唔適當嘅一個 30 工序,係會違反咗嗰個《建築物(建造)規例》嘅第16 條。 31 杜淦堃資深大律師:換句話講,即係佢就覺得冇違反16 條,但係你哋覺得有嘞? 32 張玉清女士:我哋覺得係唔符合16 條嗰個要求。 33 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋睇番650 頁,佢提到佢問過ICU 借調佢嘅同事嘅,如果個同事話 34 呢個係發泡膠封窗呢一樣嘢係符合相關嘅要求,我相信亦都唔反映你哋屋宇署嘅立 35 場,可唔可以咁講? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第二十天

24 本謄本由Epiq 編製 張玉清女士:呢個我唔清楚佢當時... 1 杜淦堃資深大律師:有冇問同點問? 2 張玉清女士:係嘞,係嘞,所以喺呢個情況我答唔到。 3 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白。如果火警前,屋宇署接獲通知或者未必一定就宏福苑,如果係一 4 個私人樓宇項目,你哋收到投訴話有用一啲唔透光嘅物料遮住咗大廈窗門長期--一 5 段長嘅時間,我哋首先唔好講佢係咪可燃嘅物料,佢唔透光先,呢一個如果我冇理 6 解錯,應該都係違反咗頭先我哋睇過嘅《作業守則》嘅要求,呢個都會違反16 7 條,係咪? 8 張玉清女士:佢其實如果長期遮住個窗喇,咁其實亦都係犯咗我哋個建築物(English 9 Spoken)嗰個設計嗰個守則嘅,第40 條嘅。 10 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔嗯,點解?可唔可以解? 11 張玉清女士:因為其實窗係要有可以採光嘅要求嘅,尤其係住宅窗,佢係需要--唔好意思, 12 應該唔係40,係關於嗰個採光嘅要求。咁喺建築物(English Spoken)裏面有 13 要求,每個單位其實係應該要有採光同埋天然通風? 14 杜淦堃資深大律師:點解?個採光個要求個必要性喺邊度,可唔可以講我哋聽? 15 張玉清女士:因為其實係同人--即係一個(English Spoken),即係嗰個衞生嘅一個要 16 求嚟嘅,見到窗,即係望到出面呢,其實係可以睇到出面嘅環境,尤其是如果係喺 17 個有維修嘅情況底下,佢可以睇得到出面實際嘅情況囉。 18 杜淦堃資深大律師:或者可唔可以咁講?如果用番呢個例子,如果啲窗冇封嘅,起碼有火警 19 時候你會睇到,係咪? 20 張玉清女士:冇錯。 21 杜淦堃資深大律師:所以如果屋宇署知道你哋管轄嘅物業,即係一啲唔係居屋嘅單位,有一 22 啲工程長期發泡膠或者一啲唔透光嘅物品封窗,我哋唔好講可燃性先,就咁一啲唔 23 透光嘅物料長期封窗,你哋都唔會批准㗎,係咪呀? 24 張玉清女士:唔會嘅。 25 杜淦堃資深大律師:而你如果見到有咁嘅情況,你哋會執法,係咪? 26 張玉清女士:冇錯。 27 杜淦堃資深大律師:另外一個範疇,如果封窗嘅係可燃物,或者可燃嘅物料,咁有另外一個 28 風險喇,相信屋宇署都係唔會批准嘅,係咪? 29 張玉清女士:唔會,我哋會採取行動。 30 杜淦堃資深大律師:似乎有一個講法,喺呢一個宏福苑嘅情況裏面。我明白呢個係ICU 嘅管 31 轄,我哋知道宏業係個RC,冇提供發泡膠嘅測試報告。佢純粹講法就係話佢有阻燃 32 性嘅,同埋都係臨時咁去使用嘅。如果純粹就得到呢啲資料,我可唔可以話屋宇署 33 唔會就咁接受呢?你哋會採取更加多嘅行動? 34 張玉清女士:冇錯。 35 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁你哋會採取啲咩嘢行動,如果個承建商走嚟咁同你哋講? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第二十天

25 本謄本由Epiq 編製 張玉清女士:如果佢話佢要用呢個,其實已經我哋會話畀佢聽「唔得囉」其實係。 1 杜淦堃資深大律師:頭先你講嗰個BPR 應該係第30(1)條。 2 張玉清女士:係,係,係。 3 杜淦堃資深大律師:我即係 for 個記錄,我讀出嚟等大家知道“ (English 4 Spoken)”,跟住第(1)條“(English Spoken)”。 5 張玉清女士:冇錯 6 杜淦堃資深大律師:你諗緊嘅係呢條? 7 張玉清女士:係呢條,係。 8 陸啟康法官:我要寫報告,所以你畀個reference 我。 9 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,而家搵到,B2/547。 10 陸啟康法官:唔該晒。 11 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係呢個--呢一個就--okay,我想都問一問你嘅就係我哋見到大火之 12 後,你提到喺3 月就發出咗一個通告函件嘅,呢個係咪--睇下係咪B2/5718 頁呢 13 一個?B2/5718,如果你落到最底就會見到個日期,應該。係嘞,呢個今年3 月 14 16 號,我哋見到其實裏面都有提到同本案有關嘅一啲問題嘅,呢個你熟悉呢份文 15 件,係咪? 16 張玉清女士:熟悉。 17 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋睇2(f),我哋見到咁講嘅,佢話「建築物嘅--同埋維修工程嘅 18 地盤,如果要儲存任何易燃或者可燃嘅物料,必須放喺安全嘅地方,唔可以囤積, 19 唔可以--避免起引火警蔓延,其中可燃物料,你講到明係例如發泡膠板嘅,唔可以 20 鋪外牆同窗。」 21 張玉清女士:唔。 22 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係而家喺大火之後呢個係一個硬指標,即係一個講得好清楚嘅要求嚟 23 嘅,係咪? 24 張玉清女士:冇錯。 25 杜淦堃資深大律師:如果咁樣講啱唔啱?咁如果而家有個承建商就嚟同我講「我臨時用嘅 26 啫,我用一陣」,呢個似乎都係唔符合到要求,係咪? 27 張玉清女士:其實(g)嗰個其實就會--用發泡膠係唔適合嘅,但係如果臨時有一啲要打鑿 28 嘅工程,(g)嗰個就係講話遮窗係--如果臨時嘅係可以嘅。 29 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔嗯。(g)似乎就唔可以遮蓋窗戶,講到明喇「(進行工序(例如打 30 鑿)時受影響嘅局部短暫遮蓋就可以」。 31 張玉清女士:係嘞。 32 杜淦堃資深大律師:所以你講得好清楚就係,如果發泡膠就點都唔得嘞。 33 張玉清女士:冇錯。 34 杜淦堃資深大律師:臨時都唔得嘞。 35 張玉清女士:係。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第二十天

26 本謄本由Epiq 編製 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係遮窗本身有時有呢個必要性嘅。 1 張玉清女士:冇錯。 2 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係就唔可以長期,係臨時嘅啫。 3 張玉清女士:係。 4 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白。咁呢個要求喺大火前同大火後就好唔同喇我哋見到。其實呢一兩 5 段好明顯地係因為今次大火而制訂㗎喇,係咪? 6 張玉清女士:其實係想講清楚呢樣嘢。 7 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔。你想講清楚個意思就係可唔可以咁解讀呢?其實大火前都唔應該 8 嘅? 9 張玉清女士:大火前--冇錯。 10 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係只不過而家我講清楚畀你聽? 11 張玉清女士:冇錯。 12 杜淦堃資深大律師:好嘞,我想同你講另外一個話題,生口,我哋知道發生咩嘢事喇,逃生 13 樓梯嗰啲窗就改咗做生口喇,方便工人出入棚架,喺屋宇署嘅立場嚟講,你哋覺唔 14 覺得呢個係一個慣常嘅做法? 15 張玉清女士:我哋覺得唔係一個慣常嘅做法,亦都頭先所講呢,我哋做咗之前嗰個巡查喇。 16 杜淦堃資深大律師:係。 17 張玉清女士:其實嗰啲工程係已經進行緊㗎嘛嗰個巡查係。咁只不過係因為大火之後我哋去 18 加強巡查,所以睇番嗰啲樓宇喇,其實我哋喺嗰四百幾棟樓裏面呢,其實我哋係見 19 到有八座樓宇係有呢啲咁嘅情況,即係大概係2%嘅啫。 20 杜淦堃資深大律師:好嘞,我想問你。大家都知道其實個改動嗰個生口,開嗰個生口係有理 21 由嘅,因為就方便啲工人爬出爬入。另外嗰四百棟,即係撇除咗八棟,佢哋點做? 22 即係啲工人點爬出爬入呢咁?通常個做法係點? 23 張玉清女士:其實係可以搵唔同嘅位置去上去個棚架,其實棚架本身自己已經係一個--係畀 24 工人去上落嘅一個嘅工序之一嚟嘅。即係其實喺勞工處個法例裏面已經講咗棚架係 25 畀個工人上去去做佢嘅維修工作,係。 26 杜淦堃資深大律師:有一個講法可能你都會有留意到,就係話其實如果你冇呢啲生口,喺有 27 些情況啲工人要離開個棚嘅時候,佢冇可能咁快走到入番室內,你哋對於呢個講法 28 有冇意見呢?或者有冇立場? 29 張玉清女士:如果喺條樓梯裏面有個生口喇,如果喺火燭嘅時候,其實啲居民其實用緊條樓 30 梯去走火嘅。但係如果佢走緊火嘅途中,突然之間有啲人係喺一個位置跳落嚟,其 31 實係會令到走火嘅人係有危險。 32 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁我想問下你,除咗你哋見到嘅例子係用個棚出入成個大廈之外,你哋 33 巡查過其他嘅地盤,有冇啲其他嘅方法㗎? 34 張玉清女士:可能喺唔同嘅位置,通常都會可能係喺個天台或者有啲平台嘅位置,去進出 35 囉,其實係。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第二十天

27 本謄本由Epiq 編製 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係幾層開一個生口呢個做法,聽你咁講得淨係得嗰幾棟? 1 張玉清女士:我哋見到係嗰幾棟囉,係呀。 2 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白。我哋都想你去睇一睇相關嘅法例,我咁講啱唔啱呢?就你哋屋宇 3 署嘅立場開生口破壞個走火樓梯個結構,走火樓梯作為一個被動嘅消防裝置,呢一 4 個係明顯違法嘅,係咪? 5 張玉清女士:係。 6 杜淦堃資深大律師:而我想好快咁畀你睇一睇,如果我哋睇番我哋頭先提過嘅《建築物(建 7 造)規例》第35 條,去J1-2/5751,35(a)同(b),可唔可以解一解釋係咪 8 都會違反咗類似呢啲嘅規定? 9 張玉清女士:35 嘅(a)其實最主要就係話,如果火燭嘅時候,就係唔會令到個火勢係去蔓 10 延到喇,即係話嗰個係設計需要有個阻燃性嘅,嗰個樓宇嘅設計。亦都係喺嗰個設 11 計方面呢,亦都係要--即係譬如(b)嗰度係要同隔籬嗰座樓要有足夠嘅距離嘅其 12 實係。 13 杜淦堃資深大律師:(b)(ii)有冇關係我想問下你? 14 張玉清女士:(b)(ii),呢個都有啲關係嘅。所以... 15 杜淦堃資深大律師:你頭先睇過嘅16 條喇,我唔再睇番,16 條嗰方面提到適當嘅建造方法 16 同程序,同埋適當嘅預防措施,你覺得16 條同呢個生口又有冇關係?有冇違反16 17 條? 18 張玉清女士:其實嗰個生口係違反16 條嘅要求嘅,因為佢唔係一個適當嘅工序嚟。 19 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋頭先都睇過《建築物消防安全守則》,裏面我頭先帶過你去睇,或 20 者我哋再睇多次,B2/1158,我哋頭先--如果你睇--或者我哋睇F5.6(a)。呢 21 度有提到所有嘅逃生路徑係必須保持暢通無阻,從一個消防嘅角度去睇,呢個都會 22 係一個問題,係咪? 23 張玉清女士:係。 24 杜淦堃資深大律師:余先生亦都提到,我亦都唔使麻煩你,余先生嘅證人供詞嘅66 段亦都 25 提到「木板嘅生口應該係唔符合一啲阻隔個火勢嘅要求,同埋要因為佢本身用嚟封 26 窗嘅唔係一啲阻燃嘅物料」,呢啲都係會造成一啲嘅問題嘅,我哋因為係余先生嘅 27 證供咁,我淨係想問下你,相信你都會同意呢個講法,係咪? 28 張玉清女士:唔。 29 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁個生口亦都可能會對於個自然採光嘅問題,因為走火樓梯其實係咪都 30 係有個採光嘅要求? 31 張玉清女士:冇錯。 32 杜淦堃資深大律師:如果你睇番我哋頭先嗰條--你提到嗰條40 條嘅J1-1/47,呢個就係 33 你指相關嘅規定,係咪? 34 張玉清女士:係,冇錯。 35 杜淦堃資深大律師:另外我想都帶你去睇一睇一個《操作守則》嘅,J1-2/4850 頁,呢個 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第二十天

28 本謄本由Epiq 編製 係你哋強制驗樓同埋強制驗窗計劃嘅《操作守則》,如果你去睇4881 ,呢個係 1 2023 年版,我哋睇3.5.2 嘅(E)段,呢度嘅要求就係如果RI 見到列出違反改 2 動或者加建嘅時候,其實要--或者列出違例改動或者加建嘅時候,其實要通知建築 3 事務監督嘅,而你睇下(b)嗰度,“(English Spoken )”,呢個都會違反 4 咗,而嗰個生口嘅問題都會違反咗呢個守則,係咪? 5 張玉清女士:呢個位有少少補充嘅。 6 杜淦堃資深大律師:你睇(E)添,“(English Spoken)”。 7 張玉清女士:或者我有少少補充先。 8 杜淦堃資深大律師:你補充,係。 9 張玉清女士:就係呢一個部分就如果冇記錯,應該就係RI 就住佢做嗰個檢驗樓宇嘅時候佢 10 個職責嚟嘅,佢要睇番嗰個樓宇會唔會有呢個違規嘅情況,包括樓梯會有開咗一啲 11 通口,呢個係個檢測階段嚟嘅。 12 杜淦堃資深大律師:所以喺檢測階段,佢要睇嘅,就應該? 13 張玉清女士:係,呢個係... 14 杜淦堃資深大律師:所以就唔係話做緊工程嗰陣,佢需要留意呢樣嘢,可唔可以咁講? 15 張玉清女士:係,可以咁講。 16 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白。 17 張玉清女士:但係做緊工程,RI 係有個責任,如果有違規嘅情況,佢係要通知屋宇署。 18 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白。而聽你咁講,做緊工程嘅時候,如果個生口都係違規? 19 張玉清女士:係。 20 杜淦堃資深大律師:喺大火之前,如果你哋屋宇署收到資料係一個--唔好講宏福苑,你哋管 21 轄嘅屋苑裏面,喺個走火樓梯有啲生口,我相信你哋係會執法嘅,聽你咁講,可唔 22 可以咁講? 23 張玉清女士:會嘅。 24 杜淦堃資深大律師:之後我想你幫一幫我哋,其實係嗰個--關於個巡查機制。我哋--你知道 25 我哋之前都有啲證供探討過呢啲事情,我想你睇一睇其中一個講法,呢個喺 26 WS1/670 頁,呢度42 至45 段其實係ICU 嘅容永倫(譯音)先生嘅證供嚟嘅, 27 麻煩你好快咁睇一睇42 至45,我先再問一問你。 28 張玉清女士:唔。 29 杜淦堃資深大律師:如果簡單咁講,42 段提到「ICU 喺2025 年12 月22 號先第一次得知 30 屋宇署其實自從2023 年嘅4 月,修訂內部規範嘅工地監測做手冊,就採取更嚴格 31 嘅執法,做某啲小型工程,屋宇署會隨機抽取個案做實地檢測」嘅,你見到佢呢度 32 呢個講法,係咪? 33 張玉清女士:唔。 34 杜淦堃資深大律師:如果第43 段,佢就話「如果ICU 知道屋宇署嘅最新政策,佢有頗大嘅 35 機會會為宏福苑嘅樓梯將會作出巡查」,我可唔可以咁講?如果個意思係因為屋宇 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第二十天

29 本謄本由Epiq 編製 署冇同ICU 溝通呢個機制,ICU 就發現唔到樓梯生口嘅問題,呢個講法你哋有咩嘢 1 回應?我哋會同佢探討呢個係咪佢嘅講法。 2 張玉清女士:係,或者我--雖然唔係我個範疇,因為(English Spoken)嗰邊嘅。咁或 3 者我講少少個機制嗰個情況。其實個機制就應該如果係(English Spoken)係 4 抽咗(English Spoken ),而有個(English Spoken )嘅,其實呢啲 5 (English Spoken)就會去咗我哋個(English Spoken)嗰個(English 6 Spoken)嘅。 7 杜淦堃資深大律師:去咗邊個(English Spoken)? 8 張玉清女士:嗰個(English Spoken),即係SM 嗰個,係。 9 杜淦堃資深大律師:(English Spoken),係。 10 張玉清女士:(English Spoken)嗰邊嘅。其實(English Spoken)嗰邊其實一路 11 以嚟都會落地盤去做一個審查嘅,咁只不過(English Spoken)嗰邊其實因為 12 佢如果係一個(English Spoken),咁佢嗰個巡查比其他嘅工程嗰個優先--優 13 次係會低啲嘅,咁佢應該--如果我冇記錯,就應該係大概十六個禮拜先至會去巡查 14 嘅。 15 但係因為其實建基於就係其實(English Spoken)都係一個比較快做完嘅 16 工程,所以(English Spoken)嗰邊就係平時都會去做,只不過而家見到嘅就 17 係-- 因為想做得好啲,咁就係就有一啲部分就係抽早少少去做(English 18 Spoken)先,咁即係話100%裏面抽咗20%係早啲去做(English Spoken), 19 咁就(English Spoken)係,即係確定就係有啲個案都已經可以睇得到。咁至 20 於其他嗰啲都會跟番原有嘅方法,就係跟番嗰個次序,都係十六個禮拜去做。 21 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係事實上高,雖然個原意就係因為(English Spoken)會好快做 22 完,十六個禮拜做一次,喺個實踐同埋喺個實際情況方面,我相信你都會同意,其 23 實好多(English Spoken)係唔止做咗十六個禮拜? 24 張玉清女士:有啲係十六,有啲多過十六嘅。 25 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,喺大廈維修方面,有好多(English Spoken)係長過十六個禮 26 拜好多嘅,係咪?喺香港,大火之前。 27 張玉清女士:大型維修係要耐時間嘅,係。 28 杜淦堃資深大律師:係。而呢啲係被界定為(English Spoken),我哋知道,係咪? 29 張玉清女士:係。 30 杜淦堃資深大律師:所以如果做一棟大廈嘅大型樓宇維修,好多時都唔止十六個禮拜,係 31 咪? 32 張玉清女士:唔止嘅。 33 杜淦堃資深大律師:係。所以--我哋知道就應唔應該係(English Spoken)呢一個,有 34 個探討。但係我想同你探討嘅事情就係,似乎佢42 段呢個講法,呢度牽涉一個溝 35 通問題,同埋如果佢早啲知道嘅問題,你明唔明白? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第二十天

30 本謄本由Epiq 編製 張玉清女士:明白。 1 杜淦堃資深大律師:所以我先想畀個機會你講一講,就佢呢個立場,你哋署方覺得點? 2 張玉清女士:我哋會覺得,當然,即係溝通得好啲係會更加好,但係其實... 3 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁呢個一定㗎喇。 4 張玉清女士:係。 5 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,咁我就想--可唔可以具體啲咁講?因為佢而家個講法就係話佢唔知 6 吖嘛,其實。 7 張玉清女士:呢個我諗係--我唔係好理解,即係我代佢答唔到點解佢唔... 8 杜淦堃資深大律師:佢唔應該唔知,係咪? 9 張玉清女士:因為其實亦都咁講,我亦都唔係牽涉喺呢個範疇,所以我答唔到你呢個問題, 10 係。 11 杜淦堃資深大律師:我再考慮下問唔問你啲同事喇咁。另外呢個你可能可以幫到我哋,有一 12 個題目就係,喺你哋做嘅巡查裏面,你哋會唔會預先通知承建商或者有關嘅人士, 13 我哋--你知道呢一個係喺本案裏面,喺呢次事件裏面係一個要探討嘅範疇。因為實 14 質上高,我哋撇除大家當時點解咁做,的的確確就係就棚網而言,因為話咗畀承建 15 商知佢哋會驗個棚網,就的確令佢有機會買咗一啲另外嘅棚網嚟到,咁可以話呢個 16 情況係魚目混珠嘅。就屋宇署嚟講,你哋一般嘅巡查會唔會事前通知RI 同RC? 17 張玉清女士:喺唔同情況有唔同嘅處理,咁一般其實我哋通常都會係收到投訴舉報嘅,如果 18 喺投訴舉報嘅情況底下,我哋最先通常都會係自己落去同番嗰個投訴人去理解番個 19 情況,如果理解完之後,有需要,我哋就會搵嗰個RI 或者係嗰個(English 20 Spoken)嘅,如果有一啲即係譬如緊急嘅情況,我哋都真係會搵個RI 同埋嗰個 21 (English Spoken),因為可能係個危急嘅情況,需要做一啲嘅即係即時有啲 22 工作要做,嗄。 23 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁你哋有冇啲時候唔會通知個RI 或者個(English Spoken),去 24 做突擊? 25 張玉清女士:有,有。 26 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁嗰啲係咩嘢情況? 27 張玉清女士:嗰啲我哋做(English Spoken)嗰啲,就一定係唔通知嘅,做(English 28 Spoken)。 29 杜淦堃資深大律師:喺咩嘢情況之下做(English Spoken )?即係你講緊你哋咁多種 30 (English Spoken),其實你--頭先我哋提到,見到有關於你喺證人供詞裏面 31 嗰個表嗰三百幾宗,係唔通知嘅? 32 張玉清女士:唔通知嘅。 33 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁你哋個實務上高就你哋就直情--如果講得白少少就踩落去,去到先至 34 搵人? 35 張玉清女士:係。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第二十天

31 本謄本由Epiq 編製 杜淦堃資深大律師:喺實務上高,我想問下你哋,你哋嗰個考慮係點?唔通知係因為你哋主 1 要係睇啲乜嘢,所以唔通知,或者可唔可以都話畀委員會聽? 2 張玉清女士:如果我哋做(English Spoken),最主要真係想睇番嗰個現場有冇啲不合 3 規格嘅情況,所以我哋就唔會通知嘅,係。 4 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係我想問下,同你探討下,如果有人投訴某一項嘅事情係違規,你哋 5 應該都係想去了解下有冇不合規格嘅情況,係咪? 6 張玉清女士:係。 7 杜淦堃資深大律:係。但係嗰個情況之下,你哋就會通知? 8 張玉清女士:我哋會落去睇咗先嘅,即係可能同個... 9 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁你落去睇咗先,會唔會通知? 10 張玉清女士:我哋通常--因為我哋有個時限嘅,咁就係未必會通知嘅,應該,係。 11 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係聽你咁講,未必會,即係冇一個既定嘅做法? 12 張玉清女士:原則上我哋都會係落咗去睇咗先嘅,係,但係睇完之後,有機會要跟進㗎嘛。 13 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,當然,明白。 14 張玉清女士:係,咁跟進,就會再通知佢要跟進,係。 15 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想你幫一幫我哋解一解呢份文件,如果你J2/7919,我哋見到一份係 16 舊年4 月版嘅文件,“(English Spoken)”,見到左上角嗰份文件。 17 張玉清女士:唔。 18 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢份就係同你哋講緊嘅(English Spoken)就有關,1.1 嗰度我見 19 到,其實就係--呢度講,呢個“(English Spoken)”。 20 張玉清女士:唔。 21 杜淦堃資深大律師:講緊啲係“(English Spoken)”,呢個就係嗰個你講緊嗰個基礎 22 嚟,係咪?即係你話你哋做(English Spoken)係唔會通知? 23 張玉清女士:係。 24 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁換句話講,如果我用番生口嗰個例子,如果有人投訴話「喂,啲走火 25 樓梯開晒啲生口」,你哋個做法應該都係會去睇下有冇啲咁嘅事,先至再跟進,就 26 唔需要其實通知任何人你哋去睇嘅? 27 張玉清女士:冇錯。因為我哋--想補充少少,就係因為我哋想確認番個投訴嗰個實際情況, 28 係。 29 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁我想問下你,因為余先生,你嘅同事嘅第二份供詞第7 段講到,極少 30 --如果我哋睇WS14/2171 頁,第7 段,佢講咗“(English Spoken)”,即 31 係唔通知嗰件事,跟住佢講咗啲例外嘅情況嘅,同埋有理由嘅,譬如佢要有啲特別 32 嘅人士,有啲特別嘅機器,去做一啲嘅審查,或者一定要個PBP 或者個RC 33 “(English Spoken)”,呢啲係你頭先講嗰啲,即係譬如有啲緊急嘅危險情 34 況要叫佢處理,咁你梗係要話畀佢知? 35 張玉清女士:冇錯。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第二十天

32 本謄本由Epiq 編製 杜淦堃資深大律師:好,我想問番就我哋而家處理有通知嗰個情況,如果有人同屋宇署講話 1 「喂,地盤用緊一啲危險嘅可燃物去做建築物料」,譬如封晒我哋啲窗嘅,或者啲 2 棚網係可燃嘅。處理呢啲投訴,你哋去做檢查,喺大火之前你哋會唔會通知承建商 3 或者通知RI? 4 張玉清女士:如果收到投訴,我哋其實係會自己落去睇咗先嘅,睇完之後,我哋確定咗嗰個 5 情況,咁有需要就係頭先所講,我哋都會搵個(English Spoken)同埋嗰個RI 6 再去睇。 7 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係換句話講,你去核實咗個情況,...(聽不清) 8 張玉清女士:係,我哋會核實咗個情況先,同埋個位置喺邊度,個實際情況係啲乜嘢嘢先, 9 係。 10 杜淦堃資深大律師:如果用個網嚟做例子,可唔可以咁講?你哋都去睇下個網,佢投訴個網 11 同其他有冇分別先,應該? 12 張玉清女士:係。 13 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係如果有啲淺色咗,或者疏咗,同其他網唔同嘅,你哋會關注,係 14 咪? 15 張玉清女士:冇錯。 16 杜淦堃資深大律師:而喺邊個位置採--收集樣本,呢啲都係你哋關注嘅事情,相信? 17 張玉清女士:冇錯。 18 杜淦堃資深大律師:如果要做測試嘅話? 19 張玉清女士:係。 20 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,咁你哋會唔會--如果要譬如採集一啲嘅樣本去做一啲嘅測試,你哋 21 會唔會事先通知承建商,定係落到去先大家決定?你哋嘅做法會係點? 22 張玉清女士:如果係棚網,因為其實係需要真係有人去剪網嘅,所以我都相信其實係要有人 23 幫手,我哋都會通知,其實。 24 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係你哋會幾耐先通知?定係去睇咗先通知? 25 張玉清女士:我哋會睇咗先嘅其實係。 26 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白。咁你哋會唔會同佢哋講到明,喺邊個地方採樣?呢個講唔講到? 27 張玉清女士:例如而家我哋做緊,或者係上次大火之後,我哋都係做緊一啲--之前都係做緊 28 啲取網嗰個嘅,咁我哋其實係由我哋自己決定嘅,會係取--通常我哋有唔同嘅位 29 置,唔同嘅高度,係儘量多啲嘅位置會去採網。 30 杜淦堃資深大律師:我見到一份文件可能幫到我哋,我哋睇J2-7908,如果我哋睇番上高一 31 頁-- 上高兩頁你會睇到呢個文件係“ (English Spoken )” 嘅(English 32 Spoken),呢個我明白呢個《作業守則》似乎係對於新建造樓宇出唔出OP 有關 33 嘅。咁我明白同本案處理嗰個情況未必直接有關,但係我想你幫一幫我哋去睇睇個 34 邏輯嘅問題,如果 7908 頁,你會咁見到嘅,喺呢個(2 )“ (English 35 Spoken )” ,跟住(English Spoken )-- 你見到落少少咁講“ (English 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第二十天

33 本謄本由Epiq 編製 Spoken)”,我想問下你哋,即係如果你幫到我哋嘅話,呢度講嗰個程序嗰個邏 1 輯係點,其實係? 2 張玉清女士:其實起完座樓,咁我哋要去出入伙紙,咁我哋會係做一啲抽查佢嘅情況嘅,咁 3 我哋亦都唔想畀承建商佢哋知道我哋係去睇邊幾層樓嘅,所以就會用一個隨機嘅機 4 制,係去抽--譬如由電腦--其實應該係由個電腦去抽,係揀邊幾層樓去做一個咁嘅 5 視察嘅,咁而揀咗邊幾層樓,我哋亦都唔會話畀嗰個承建商聽。 6 杜淦堃資深大律師:就個棚網安全嘅問題,我哋知道大火之後,亦都有有關嘅內部指引,如 7 果我哋睇J2/7970,睇2.4 段。呢度如果咁樣理解啱唔啱?「百分之十嘅現有樓 8 宇個案會被隨機抽樣嘅,如果屋宇署要求喺七個工作天內聯絡RC,三個工作天內安 9 排巡查」,係咪咁? 10 張玉清女士:係。 11 杜淦堃資深大律師:點解有呢個程序,七日聯絡RC,三日安排巡查? 12 張玉清女士:其實呢個係一個(English Spoken),咁其實就因為香港落晒啲網,咁跟 13 住而家要再上番去吖嘛。 14 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白。 15 張玉清女士:其實我哋見到都緊張嘅,即係啲人要上番啲網嗰啲。所以我哋其實有少少個彈 16 性喺度先嘅,咁我哋就住呢個(English Spoken ),其實我哋都會一路 17 (English Spoken),睇下會唔會需要去改善嘅,其實係。但而家嘅做法暫時 18 我哋就係,佢--即係我哋要喺七日內要通知,三日內要落去。 19 杜淦堃資深大律師:如果有人同你講話「而家呢個都咁做,所以我哋之前驗棚網,通知有關 20 嘅承建商,都唔係好離譜啫,大火之後都係咁做囉」,你個回應會係點? 21 張玉清女士:其實大火之後,尤其是而家呢一批嘅棚網其實主要都係由建造業建會幫手去購 22 買嘅。同埋頭先我都講咗,就係個--建基於就係,因為而家係好多人要上嗰個網, 23 所以會有呢個嘅--我哋有個--暫時有呢個安排嘅,咁亦都我哋其實會再睇睇跟住落 24 嚟嘅情況,因為其實都係最近先至開始不停有人上緊網。 25 杜淦堃資深大律師:換句話講,如果有人用你呢一個安排,去解釋番點解大火之前要通知人 26 哋要去驗個棚網,我相信你會同意呢個講法就唔係好合適,係咪?因為我哋處理緊 27 嘅係完全唔同情況? 28 張玉清女士:我諗我只可以講得到,就係呢個係我而家呢個機制,其實係。 29 杜淦堃資深大律師:相信你都知道ICU 嗰個講法,佢喺大火之前,ICU 嘅慣例,佢哋話實地 30 巡查一定會同RI 同RC 提早預約,佢哋覺得有必要先通知RI 同RC,等佢哋可以 31 在場回應ICU 嘅投訴或者諮詢。呢個講法你同唔同意? 32 張玉清女士:呢個講法我諗都要留待番ICU 嘅同事去解答番,但係因為佢可能有唔同嘅因素 33 底下嘅。而頭先我講咗,我哋嘅做法通常都會係--我哋如果收到投訴,我哋自己會 34 落去睇咗先,但係之後我哋都係會預約嘅。係。 35 杜淦堃資深大律師:換句話講,可唔可以咁講?佢點解咁做,你就唔批評,唔評論,但係你 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第二十天

34 本謄本由Epiq 編製 哋係唔會咁做嘅,啱唔啱? 1 張玉清女士:我只可以講番我哋嘅做法,其實係,係。 2 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁我想或者講白少少,你哋嘅做法明顯同佢哋唔同,係咪? 3 張玉清女士:我諗--我只可以... 4 杜淦堃資深大律師:如果有人投訴,佢哋就話「我唔使自己去睇咗先㗎,約齊人先去」,呢 5 個唔係你哋嘅做法,係咪? 6 張玉清女士:我哋--會有唔同嘅做法,其實係。 7 杜淦堃資深大律師:你答我條問題,得唔得啫?即係呢個唔係你哋嘅做法,係咪? 8 張玉清女士:我哋一般唔會咁做。 9 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔該你。我想畀你睇番一幅圖,同個生口有關嘅,睇你幫唔幫到我哋。 10 I1-3/5387,呢個係喺強制驗樓計劃裏面呈遞嘅文件,我哋見到其實呢度好清楚 11 睇到喺就係喺個走火通道嗰度有個樓梯變咗用一個木板遮蓋,個窗拆咗嘅,如果喺 12 你哋管轄嘅大廈樓宇維修嘅項目裏面收到呢個相片,改動咗樓梯嘅生口,屋宇署會 13 唔會派人去跟進? 14 張玉清女士:我相信呢個如果我冇記錯,其實呢個應該係一個小型工程嘅提交嘅,小型工程 15 如果係抽到佢做(English Spoken),其實就會睇得到嘅,如果睇得到,其實 16 就會落去嘅。 17 杜淦堃資深大律師:而如果抽中嚟做(English Spoken)見到呢個情況,唔會覺得冇問 18 題,係咪? 19 張玉清女士:因為見到已經變做一個通口。 20 杜淦堃資深大律師:所以你嘅答案唔會覺得冇問題,係咪? 21 張玉清女士:唔會覺得冇問題... 22 杜淦堃資深大律師:我其實想問你,你覺唔覺--如果你哋有睇到,你哋就會覺得有問題,同 23 唔同意? 24 張玉清女士:係,係。 25 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋頭先睇過一份《合作備忘錄》嘅,喺J1-1/2047 頁,3.2 段我哋 26 睇,呢度話BD,第三行,“(English Spoken)",所以喺大火之前,如果根 27 據呢份《備忘錄》,屋宇署應該係有審查,有(English Spoken )ICU 嘅工 28 作,係咪? 29 張玉清女士:呢個位我想澄清番,就係呢個係未(English Spoken)嘅,但係應該據我 30 所知,我哋冇抽佢(English Spoken)嘅應該係。 31 杜淦堃資深大律師:睇番前面第1 頁,呢個係(English Spoken),屋宇署、房屋署同 32 埋BD 嘅《備忘錄》嚟嘅,係咪?你睇下呢份文件嘅最後嗰頁,即係2022 年7 月 33 1 號簽嘅,係咪?你見到? 34 張玉清女士:係。 35 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係據你嘅理解,簽完呢份MOU 之後,2022 年嘅7 月1 號,到大火之 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第二十天

35 本謄本由Epiq 編製 前你哋從來冇(English Spoken)過ICU 嘅工作? 1 張玉清女士:呢個位置我唔確定嘅其實係,因為呢一份其實應該係另外一位同事佢嗰個證供 2 底下嘅。 3 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係據你嘅認知,有冇? 4 張玉清女士:據我嘅認知,譬如好似係嗰個強制驗樓底下,我哋冇抽佢哋啲工作嚟做 5 (English Spoken)嘅。 6 杜淦堃資深大律師:點解有個咁嘅條款其實都係去確保番大家嗰個尺度係一致嘅,係咪? 7 張玉清女士:原則上應該係。 8 杜淦堃資深大律師:而你講唔講到點解冇(English Spoken)過,你哋覺得冇需要,定 9 係寫完之後冇跟進? 10 張玉清女士:呢個位置我答唔到。 11 杜淦堃資深大律師:邊個同事會答到呢個問題? 12 張玉清女士:應該係潘生。 13 杜淦堃資深大律師:潘生? 14 張玉清女士:潘生,係。 15 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔該晒。主席,多謝你,多謝你咁耐心聆聽我嘅問題。 16 張玉清女士:唔該晒。 17 陸啟康法官:有冇?委員,係。 18 陳健波議員:唔該。我想問一問就大維修嗰度個制度其實都好倚賴嗰啲專業人士,包括RI、 19 RC,即係所謂呢個註冊嘅認可人士,註冊承建商去做呢啲嘢,但係嗰個現實就好多 20 況不但有互相監察,而且係有存在同流合污嘅問題。我想問一問你哋有冇對呢件咁 21 令人即係覺得唔應該做嘅事有啲咩嘢改革或者變更?同埋我都想問一問,而家對呢 22 啲所謂專業人士佢哋最高嘅刑罰係點?使唔使坐監定係最多係釘牌,而家個情況係 23 點?或者將來考慮會係點樣? 24 張玉清女士:就住呢個事件之後,其實部門有幾方面已經做咗啲嘢嘅,同埋有啲嚟緊都會係 25 做嘅事。首先講咗而家我哋做咗嘢先,其實頭先我已經講咗,就係就住個大維修嗰 26 方面,其實我哋出咗一個通函畀咗所有嘅註冊專業人員同埋註冊承建商,去再三提 27 醒番佢個職責。另一方面,就住而家進行緊嘅大型維修工程嘅樓宇,我哋已經係加 28 強咗個巡查嘅,而呢個巡查亦都係會繼續進行嘅。第三方面,其實係就住RI 嘅工 29 作,其實之前會講緊就係話RI,我哋其實會係抽查佢喺嗰個檢驗階段同埋完工階 30 段,其實而家我哋會做多一樣嘅,已經做緊添,就係喺工程進行當中,我哋會抽查 31 個RI 佢嗰個監管資料嘅紀錄,亦都會落現場去核實嘅。 32 另外,之前亦都講過就係話個棚網方面,我哋針對性就唔希望再有一啲唔合規 33 格嘅棚網出現,咁出咗嗰張PNRC 85 ,係成個流程點樣樣去監管番嗰個使用棚 34 網。另外,嚟緊嘅方面,其實我哋有幾樣嘢會做緊嘅。第一樣就係喺嗰個大型維修 35 工程方面,其實我哋就會將佢係由原先嘅二級小型工程嗰個制度變咗做一級嘅小型 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第二十天

36 本謄本由Epiq 編製 工程。頭先都有提過,就係會係由認可人士去負責嗰個監管,亦都需要喺開工之前 1 要提交嗰個圖則,講清楚佢嗰個工序同埋預防措施,得到我哋嘅許可先至可以開工 2 嘅。同埋其實成個制度,將來大型維修呢個項目其實都會係只可以由業主同嗰個主 3 承建商去簽署嗰個人先至可以入呢個開工紙。另外,就係就住嗰個懲罰方面--其實 4 我哋都會就係嗰個註冊制度裏面,我哋會收緊個註冊要求。 5 至於罰則嗰方面,其實舊年已經上過一次立法會,就係話我哋會改嗰個法例, 6 喺個罰則嗰度我哋會加重罰則嘅。另外,就係喺嗰個罰則之餘,就係嗰個紀律處分 7 方面,其實將來我哋諗緊都會係如果佢喺《防止賄賂條例》裏面已經係定咗罪嘅, 8 就會即時可以除佢牌。 9 陳健波議員:有冇講到話譬如佢故意疏忽、同流合污呢啲會唔會坐監,有冇呢個? 10 張玉清女士:暫時呢個就係未有嘅。 11 陳健波議員:你哋研究下。 12 張玉清女士:好,好。 13 陳健波議員:另一條問題,就係最近有啲人開始用啲科技,即係利用無人機、紅外線,就喺 14 嗰個外牆嗰度檢查,即係早啲做,即係好似身體檢查咁,你一驗到有就即刻就去 15 做,就唔使等大維修,即係佢不斷即係都係一個好健康嘅狀,咁就呢個亦都係比較 16 新嘅發展。咁根本嗰啲人就認為,即係嗰啲專業人士認為就唔需要「大維修」三個 17 字,根本冇嘅,因為佢不斷確保個外牆係一個符合你嘅要求,可能四五十年都唔使 18 做大維修。咁你對用科技去做呢啲新方法,你哋政府會唔會有啲咩嘢支援?定係你 19 哋覺得呢個做法係點呢? 20 張玉清女士:其實用無人機去視察,我哋部門已經做緊。咁我哋透過用無人機去視察,其實 21 就係我地可以好快脆搵得到邊座樓係有需要去進行一啲維修嘅,我哋而家都做緊呢 22 一樣嘢嘅。至於話業界方面,其實以前就主要都係用紅外線去做檢測嘅,其實我哋 23 都係鼓勵緊出面業界可以用無人機去做嗰個測試。 24 陳健波議員:即係我相信希望你鼓勵啲管理公司、業主立案法團係有好多方法嘅,因為大維 25 修就算你將來點樣改,你仲係用棚網韞人咁耐,其實係非人道嘅,亦都係即係好彩 26 咁多年都冇事,係咪?今次係一個好大嘅教訓,就希望政府真係要諗下用啲新嘅科 27 技。同埋如果你好似一個身體檢查咁,唔好幾十年都唔理,到有事先做,其實嗰個 28 傷害係好大,對於人咁辛苦,係咪?即係希望用新嘅方法,直情取代大維修我意思 29 係,好唔好?你諗諗,研究下。 30 張玉清女士:明白。 31 歐陽伯權博士:張女士,我想問一問,跟一跟嗰個監管嘅問題,大家都知道喺嗰個小型工程 32 同埋大型工程分別個監管係有分差嘅,頭先你用過一個例證話關於嗰啲好似鑽一個 33 窿,一個小型工程。但係如果喺一個屋苑裏面,好似我哋宏福裏面,你同一個小型 34 工程但係做好多次,例如好似八座都同一個工程,加起嚟已經算係一個即係唔細嘅 35 業務,你會當佢小型工程定係大型工程嘅方法去監管嘅呢? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第二十天

37 本謄本由Epiq 編製 張玉清女士:剛才我講咗個小型工程監管制度嘅背景,其實個背景就睇得到,就係其實當時 1 嘅理念就係小型工程,即係譬如可能喺嗰座樓係做一啲維修,以嗰個工序上面嘅安 2 全程度或者嗰個複雜程度其實比一個起新樓係低嘅,所以先至係變咗做一個小型工 3 程。其實喺呢個個案裏面我哋睇得到,就係其實以一個大型呢個情況,我哋所以點 4 解諗住都係用一個加強,變咗做大型維修一個項目,當時嘅諗法就係真係想便利個 5 業主用唔同即係簡單方法去到佢個維修。 6 歐陽伯權博士:因為大家要知道嗰個監管方法,你哋嘅要求係高好多大型工程,所以變咗希 7 望係大家喺嗰度諗一諗。 8 張玉清女士:理解嘅,其實將來嗰個一級小型工程係比而家嘅一級小型工程亦都係嚴謹咗好 9 多嘅,因為而家嘅一級小型工程係唔需要任何審批或者係得到我哋同意都可以開工 10 嘅,將來就要入張圖則,咁亦都我哋睇過佢即係嗰個工序,畀到--即係我哋要有個 11 同意,佢先至可以開工,咁收變相係有少少似乎另外嗰個制度嘅,不過就係唔係真 12 係個審批個人咁樣。 13 歐陽伯權博士:唔該晒,唔該。 14 唔該主席。 15 陸啟康法官:我諗我亦都有啲即係關於政策都有啲意見,即係我諗其實喺嗰個--原意我可以 16 理解嘅,小型工程其實某啲程度上亦都可以幫業主慳到啲錢,唔好咁複雜,唔好即 17 係架床疊屋咁樣,原意可能係好嘅,但係我諗其實今次個大火就話畀我哋聽其實個 18 知風險嘅問題。 19 張玉清女士:明白。 20 陸啟康法官:即係呢一類嘅其實係我哋原來話覺得最危險嘅工程,其實可能嗰個監管係仲少 21 過一個起新樓咁樣,因為佢有人喺度住,所以我哋即係覺得--我諗可能個問題我哋 22 理解,但係我諗以後其實處方可能要處理,就係因為個風險評估方面,你要將呢一 23 類工程,其實因為有人喺度住,嗰個可能造成嗰個損--即係傷亡可能好嚴重。 24 張玉清女士:理解嘅,我可唔可以有少少補充? 25 陸啟康法官:你講。 26 張玉清女士:其實我哋都睇過個情況,如果其實--我同意係喺個現有樓宇裏面去做一個維 27 修,其實喺個防火風險方面,消防風險係真係高嘅。如果嗰個--但係你話其實如果 28 做一個維修,其實工作係簡單,亦都唔改變嗰個逃生途徑,原則上如果佢真係跟到 29 我哋嘅要求去做足嗰個防禦措施,其實應該個風險係可以管控。而家呢個情況,我 30 哋見到真係有一啲唔合規格嘅人做咗一啲唔--用咗一啲唔合格嘅方法去做,所以亦 31 都點解我哋會去將嗰個監管制度亦都會收緊番,就變咗做一個加強版嘅一級小型工 32 程嗰個監管,咁呢個會喺個監管度做。 33 陸啟康法官:始終我諗其實都係要靠佢哋,因為如果唔係嘅話,佢哋啲專業人士唔做佢哋嘅 34 工作,我諗你哋由朝到晚你哋都做唔停嘅。 35 張玉清女士:冇錯。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第二十天

38 本謄本由Epiq 編製 陸啟康法官:當然呢樣我諗你哋都要睇,因為其實佢哋都係你哋監管㗎嘛? 1 張玉清女士:係,同意。 2 陸啟康法官:所以其實嗰啲人嘅質素或者點樣去提升,你哋真係要考慮,如果唔係嘅話,就 3 只會係嗰個政府資源同埋公眾資源用好多。 4 張玉清女士:理解。 5 陸啟康法官:我哋成日講,譬如律師,我唔使佢哋--我唔使監管,搵人audit 佢哋啲工 6 作,即係只要佢哋做得到佢哋嘅工作咁就得。 7 張玉清女士:明白。 8 陸啟康法官:所以其實我諗呢樣亦都真係要睇一睇,因為今次個--如果係呢樣嘢未造成之前 9 --即係未改良之前,署方嘅巡查一定要係多啲。 10 張玉清女士:係,我哋而家加強咗巡查嘅,同埋抽多咗(English Spoken),尤其是係 11 工程進行當中。 12 陸啟康法官:另外一樣嘢其實我就好擔心,睇到就係嗰個溝通嘅問題,即係ICU 嘅問題。即 13 係似乎個問題就係話,即係如果你睇番上個禮拜我哋研究你哋同消防嗰個溝通係需 14 要,亦都係必需添。再加埋ICU 而家整咗個ICU 出嚟,ICU 其實就係你權,就 15 ICU 其實就唔應該佢哋同消防有溝通嘅,就算如果佢哋--你而家就答唔到畀我哋聽 16 佢哋之間有冇溝通,因為佢哋嘅溝通,其實BD 都應該係在場,咁先至可以有一個 17 全面嘅,所以其實呢一方面嘅溝通,其實我就覺得即係而家好似--即係我諗都要今 18 次檢視一下,即係咁嘅溝通制度其實係唔係一個即係做得唔好,所以先至令到今次 19 有啲嘢--即係喺嗰個投訴方面個跟進係有啲--我唔知可唔可以講甩漏,但係都出咗 20 啲問題。 21 張玉清女士:呢個我想有少少補充,就係其實我哋因為呢次事件,我哋都成立咗一個工作組 22 嘅,呢個工作組係就住大維修,我哋會有消防,亦都有勞工處,亦都會有ICU 嘅, 23 我哋而家亦都考慮緊會唔會加埋其他相關嘅部門,係就住大維修方面其實我哋點樣 24 可以做得好啲,或者有冇啲咩嘢特別嘅溝通或者喺協助方面可以做好啲。 25 陸啟康法官:明白。各位涉事方唔知有冇咩嘢問題想提問? 26 譚俊傑大律師:係,主席,我有幾條關於通知嘅問題。 27 陸啟康法官:好,請問。 28 譚俊傑大律師:張助理處長,我姓譚嘅,我代表幾位居民嘅,我有少少問題跟進嘅啫。頭先 29 杜資深大律師就用咗棚網呢一個去講到通知嘅問題,係咪?棚網,即係檢驗啲棚 30 網,你記唔記得? 31 張玉清女士:唔。 32 譚俊傑大律師:跟住之後,頭先你亦都講到屋宇署嘅做法就會睇咗先至會去通知,係咪? 33 張玉清女士:係。 34 譚俊傑大律師:我想問睇咗之後會幾耐通知嗰啲承建商或者RI? 35 張玉清女士:其實要視乎情況,係呀。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第二十天

39 本謄本由Epiq 編製 譚俊傑大律師:係,咁以你經驗會係幾耐之前通知? 1 張玉清女士:呢個真係按個別情況而定其實係。 2 譚俊傑大律師:係幾多日或者幾小時,定係點樣㗎? 3 張玉清女士:我呢度答唔到你嗰個實際個日子,因為真係會(English Spoken)個別情 4 況去再約番嗰個時間。 5 譚俊傑大律師:你睇咗啲棚網,例如啲棚網你覺得稀疏咗咁樣,即係或者啲顏色係唔同咗, 6 咁喺呢個咁嘅情況之下,會係幾耐之前通知呢? 7 張玉清女士:其實好視乎跟住落嚟要做嗰個視察個目的係啲乜,如果我哋係要做一個即係可 8 能叫做一個(English Spoken),可能就會好快脆,同埋要解決嗰個問題。 9 譚俊傑大律師:如果好快脆,會係幾耐? 10 張玉清女士:可能一兩日咁樣樣。 11 譚俊傑大律師:都會有一兩日通知嘅? 12 張玉清女士:但係一兩日--因為都要約其實都係。 13 譚俊傑大律師:明白。係,咁嗰一兩日點樣確保啲承建商係唔會更換咗啲棚網?請問。有冇 14 任何方法㗎? 15 張玉清女士:因為其實我哋會第一次去睇咗,我哋其實通常都會有影相嘅,咁會知道實質嗰 16 個情況係啲咩嘢嘢。 17 譚俊傑大律師:你嘅意思係跟住比對定係... 18 張玉清女士:其實落去睇亦都有個原因,可能係想知道,即係譬如如果我真係繼續要做嘢 19 嘅,我真譬如話真係要取辦嘅,咁我都可以知道我諗住喺邊個位置取辦,如果再落 20 去睇到係唔同咗樣嘅,咁咪即係已經唔同咗。 21 譚俊傑大律師:我冇其他問題。 22 陸啟康法官:其他涉事方?如果冇,請政府孫大律師。 23 孫靖乾資深大律師:係,主席,我想諗緊會唔會可能有一個小小嘅短休,可能十分鐘。因為 24 其實就我唔一定會有好多或者有問題,但係可能有一啲地方我想係即係去 25 (English Spoken)一下。咁我... 26 陸啟康法官:可以理解。 27 孫靖乾資深大律師:係。 28 陸啟康法官:咁我諗十分鐘夠喇嘛?因為如果唔係--因為今日時間比較急,如果唔係我都本 29 來想到下晝兩點三嘅,但係我諗... 30 杜淦堃資深大律師:主席,就幾多分鐘我哋冇意見,但係我諗如果早上完成,等張女士可以 31 離開,唔使再返嚟會係比較好嘅做法。 32 陸啟康法官:咁我休庭十--聽證會休... 33 孫靖乾資深大律師:可能去到45 分,即係休十四分鐘。 34 陸啟康法官:45,好。 35 孫靖乾資深大律師:好,唔該。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第二十天

40 本謄本由Epiq 編製

1 12 時32 分聆訊押後 2 12 時45 分聆訊恢復 3

4 陸啟康法官:夠唔夠時間? 5 孫靖乾資深大律師:係,夠。 6 陸啟康法官:因為我哋知道--因為我哋好明白要咁短時間要攞指示或者要諗,我可以理解 7 嘅。 8 孫靖乾資深大律師:明白,多謝主席。 9 陸啟康法官:你有需要就問我攞時間。 10 孫靖乾資深大律師:好,主席。首先多謝頭先畀咗啲時間我哋即係去攞啲指示,但係我哋應 11 該頭先都即係考慮過,我哋應該係覺得再有其他嘅問題,咁都唔該晒主席。 12 陸啟康法官:Okay,唔該。有冇其他覆問? 13 杜淦堃資深大律師:冇其他覆問。 14 多謝你,張小姐。 15

16 12 時46 分屋宇署助理署長/強制驗樓證人張玉清女士作供完畢 17

18 陸啟康法官:唔該晒你。 19 如果係咁,不如我哋下晝先至開始抑或點? 20 杜淦堃資深大律師:好。 21 陸啟康法官:好唔好?我諗下晝開始比較好啲。咁哦哋今日--或者--2 點又好似... 22 杜淦堃資深大律師:應該做得完嘅,或者如果大家唔介意... 23 陸啟康法官:唔緊要,得,我哋兩點三,如果係咁,我哋照兩點三。 24

25 12 時46 分聆訊押後 26 14 時15 分聆訊恢復 27

28 14 時15 屋宇署前高級屋宇測量師(屋宇管制)(由 2023 年4 月25 日至2025 年7 月 29 6 日借調至房屋局獨立審查組)證人謝錦明先生開始作供 30

31 陸啟康法官:係,杜大律師。 32 杜淦堃資深大律師:主席,下一位證人係謝錦明先生。 33 陸啟康法官:唔該。 34 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,謝先生,你好,麻煩你都企一企起身將你面前嗰個聲明讀出嚟。 35 謝錦明先生:好呀,本人謝錦明聲明,本人所作嘅證供,盡本人所知、所悉及所信,均屬真 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第二十天

41 本謄本由Epiq 編製 實。 1 杜淦堃資深大律師:多謝你,請坐。 2 謝錦明先生:好。 3 杜淦堃資深大律師:謝先生,我哋知道你喺退休之前你曾經係屋宇署嘅高級屋宇測量師,係 4 咪? 5 謝錦明先生:冇錯。 6 杜淦堃資深大律師:而你喺任職期間曾經被借調到ICU 工作嘅? 7 謝錦明先生:正確。 8 杜淦堃資深大律師:你都可以講一講畀委員會聽你自己嘅一啲履歷,你係邊年加入屋宇署 9 㗎? 10 謝錦明先生:1998 年。 11 杜淦堃資深大律師:而一路都喺屋宇署服務,至到你舊年退休,係咪? 12 謝錦明先生:冇錯。 13 杜淦堃資深大律師:你可唔可以話畀我哋知道,你喺退休之前你都一路喺ICU 嗰度工作,係 14 咪呀? 15 謝錦明先生:冇錯,兩年多啲。 16 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係換句話講,我資料顯示你就係舊年7 月退休,即係你係23 年入 17 ICU? 18 謝錦明先生:23 年嘅4 月。 19 杜淦堃資深大律師:可唔可以同委員會講解下你喺ICU 工作期間嘅主要職責係乜嘢呢? 20 謝錦明先生:冇問題。正如大狀頭先講,我就喺2023 年4 月就借調咗去呢個屋宇署嘅--房 21 屋署嘅ICU 獨立審查組嘅,咁我係借調咗過去呢個現存樓宇組(Existing 22 Buildings Division),我個崗位係高級屋宇測量師(樓宇管制),我自己本 23 身平日嘅工作就係就住房署嘅居屋,同埋一啲出售公屋做一啲現存樓宇嘅監管工作 24 嘅,例如係處理住客或者居民,或者係呢個業主嘅投訴、查詢、舉報、關於一啲滲 25 水個案、渠管嘅破損、僭建物同埋樓宇失修嘅情況嘅,呢方面佢哋嘅舉報、查詢或 26 者係投訴。 27 除此之外,我哋呢一個現存樓宇組每一年都會主動去巡查一啲我哋嘅目標大 28 廈。唔好意思,我哋會就住我哋嘅巡查發現到一啲違規嘅僭建物,我哋會發出清拆 29 令嘅。另外,我自己本身亦都係負責緊一個ICU 裏面大型電腦系統嘅更新同埋 30 upgrade,即係改善嘅工程。基本上以上呢幾項係我主要嘅工作。 31 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁喺啲大型樓宇維修呢一方面,你有冇參與嘅呢? 32 謝錦明先生:如果你講大型樓宇維修,如果係屬於因為係出咗呢一個叫做《修葺令》 33 (English Spoken)嗰啲,我就冇嘅。因為喺ICU 裏面我哋有另外一組同事係 34 MBI team 嘅,佢係專係負責向啲目標樓宇發出呢一個驗樓令、驗窗令,同埋之後 35 嗰個嘅跟進工作嘅,包括埋處理居民嘅投訴、查詢、或者舉報咁樣。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第二十天

42 本謄本由Epiq 編製 杜淦堃資深大律師:嗰一位係咪都係一人位測量師嚟㗎? 1 謝錦明先生:冇錯,因為我哋其實每一team 同事都--我哋叫佢做--嗰team 個阿head 2 都係一位 senior 嘅 professional grade 嘅同事嚟嘅,佢係另一位 3 (English Spoken)。 4 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白,換句話講,其實你任職ICU 期間應該冇參與過同宏福苑有關嘅工 5 作嘅,係咪? 6 謝錦明先生:宏福苑嘅工作有參與過,除咗因為出(English Spoken)嘅大維修或者係 7 之後相關居民嘅投訴、查詢嗰啲。因為宏福苑佢可能本身都仲有其他可能滲水問 8 題、僭建嘅舉報、或者渠管嘅破損咁樣,嗰啲係我哋現存樓宇組度做嘅。 9 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白,即係你嘅工作可能同宏福苑有關,但係就唔涉及今次嘅大維修? 10 謝錦明先生:正確。 11 杜淦堃資深大律師:你喺ICU 期間,你嘅上司會係一位(English Spoken),跟住就係 12 (English Spoken),係咪? 13 謝錦明先生:(English Spoken),對。 14 杜淦堃資深大律師:你提交咗兩封信件係回答一啲委員會對你嘅問題嘅。 15 謝錦明先生:係。 16 杜淦堃資深大律師:一封就係今年嘅3 月11 號,另外一封就係4 月22 號嘅,我相信你都 17 可以確認你嗰兩封信件嘅內容係準確嘅,係咪? 18 謝錦明先生:冇錯。 19 杜淦堃資深大律師:謝先生,你都知道嘞,點解我哋要麻煩你,就係ICU 嘅古小平先生,佢 20 就宏福苑工程使用發泡膠嘅呢個投訴,喺2024 年9 月25 日之後,根據佢嘅講 21 法,就係做咗一個巡查之後,佢有同你請教過究竟使用發泡膠物料封窗嘅問題,呢 22 個係佢嘅講法。我想你睇一睇番古先生嗰個證供,好讓你快啲同我哋去探討有關嘅 23 問題。 24 謝錦明先生:好。 25 杜淦堃資深大律師:WS1/第650 頁,我哋知道你睇過,你自己有另外一個副本,係咪? 26 謝錦明先生:我個副本都係你嗰個,不過我print 過出嚟咁解啫。 27 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,你可以睇螢光幕嗰個可能會容易啲,你睇下第2 點。 28 謝錦明先生:第2 點,係。 29 杜淦堃資深大律師:係嘞,應該你手上都有嘅。 30 謝錦明先生:睇到,睇到。 31 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢個係佢嘅證人供詞第30 頁個講法,呢度就係提到你,佢話喺我哋所 32 講嗰個2024 年9 月25 號,佢話做完嗰個巡查之後呢,佢就口頭問過你,關於發 33 泡膠封窗嘅事情。跟住佢就話佢得悉如果係臨時用一個-- 臨時(English 34 Spoken)用呢個發泡膠嚟封窗,呢個唔算係一個(English Spoken ),就冇 35 要求就係話要係用一啲防火嘅物料嘅。咁所以就用一啲發泡膠嚟--咁用法就唔算係 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第二十天

43 本謄本由Epiq 編製 一個(English Spoken)。 1 謝錦明先生:Works,唔。 2 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢個係佢第一個講法,我想你睇埋佢嘅補充證人供詞,喺WS14/2148 3 頁,57 段,57 段一開始就講到,你見到呢度寫住「(English Spoken)9 月 4 25 號」,跟住佢就講,或者你都熟悉呢一段,我唔使再重複。 5 謝錦明先生:熟悉,唔。 6 杜淦堃資深大律師:佢呢度就話佢(English Spoken)咗,佢諮詢咗你喇,就話關於喺 7 BD 嗰方面有冇相關一啲規則或者法規,關於發泡膠封窗呢個事宜。佢就話佢解釋咗 8 畀你聽佢個團隊就收到一啲嘅查詢,就關於用發泡膠作為一個臨時嘅保護,保護個 9 窗門,佢就問你有冇違規喇咁做?跟住佢咁講嘅“(English Spoken)”,你 10 見到佢呢度咁講喇。 11 謝錦明先生:係。 12 杜淦堃資深大律師:跟住如果跳落一句,3 行呢,大概佢就話“ (English 13 Spoken)”,即係你喇,“(English Spoken )”,即係意思就係話因為用 14 發泡膠封窗就唔算係一啲(English Spoken),僭建物喇,所以就唔可以採取 15 行動嘅。 16 謝錦明先生:係,唔。 17 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想問番你,你記唔記得喺2024 年9 月左右,你有冇曾經就發泡膠嘅 18 防火要求同佢有過對話?你回答之前,或者我哋都睇一睇多一份文件,睇下你記唔- 19 -即係幫一幫你嘅記憶。 20 謝錦明先生:好,好呀。 21 杜淦堃資深大律師:去到I1 嘅第4 個文件夾,I1-4/8751,落去底嗰度你會見到有個9 22 月19 號嘅電郵嘅。 23 謝錦明先生:唔。 24 杜淦堃資深大律師:由呢個“(English Spoken)”發出,你見到喇,“.hk”。跟住 25 CRMS 呢個就係係咪(English Spoken)? 26 謝錦明先生:正確。 27 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係個系統嚟嘅? 28 謝錦明先生:正確,唔。 29 杜淦堃資深大律師:所以呢封郵件應該就係通知呢個ICU ,包括古先生,(English 30 Spoken),同埋佢嘅同事呢,就話有關呢個易燃泡沫膠板嘅投訴已經分派到ICU 31 嘞。我想問下你嘅就係--好嘞,你睇到呢個電郵,上面呢,你再睇下9 月20 號, 32 (English Spoken)就同事同劉小姐講咗“(English Spoken)”。 33 謝錦明先生:唔。 34 杜淦堃資深大律師:第一件事,SBS/BC 係咪指你? 35 謝錦明先生:冇錯,(English Spoken)。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第二十天

44 本謄本由Epiq 編製 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢度就話有個“(English Spoken)”,就話會去再睇。似乎佢就 1 話會請教你嘅,呢度。 2 謝錦明先生:係。 3 杜淦堃資深大律師:可唔可以咁講呢?雖然你唔記得實質上高,即係似乎係講過啲乜嘢喇。 4 謝錦明先生:係。 5 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係我都想你回應一下,話畀大家知道。 6 謝錦明先生:好呀。 7 杜淦堃資深大律師:古先生話你畀咗個口頭意見佢,你記唔記得佢有冇咁問過你呢?同埋你 8 個意思,係咪正如佢所咁講呢? 9 謝錦明先生:我係唔記得嘅,因為點解呢?需唔需要我(English Spoken)? 10 杜淦堃資深大律師:好,你解釋。 11 謝錦明先生:因為其實我都睇番佢嘅供詞,我都睇過佢個供詞,其實佢聲稱話口頭問過我 12 嘅,咁其實就冇任何嘅--睇完返嚟喇,佢話睇完site 返嚟之後就問過我,我自己 13 嘅印象就冇收過任何嘅詳細嘅資料嘅。同埋首先我都想(English Spoken)一 14 點,就係佢呢個話口頭問過我呢,其實我睇起上嚟好以就係話,嚟我嗰度就問下我 15 對呢條法例嗰個意見係點樣,其實呢啲嘅情況呢,其實基本上我經常都會發生嘅, 16 同事好多時候都會嚟我嗰度,可能會問下我條條例嘅意見呀、個睇法呀,或者有時 17 唔係條例,可能係我哋啲(English Spoken )或者係一啲(English 18 Spoken),咁佢有時會問下我嘅意見嘅。 19 我睇而家呢個情況類似係咁樣,因為睇過佢嗰個證詞呢,就係其實我都冇睇 20 過,佢話係因為個投訴佢嚟到去諮詢我,其實我冇睇過個投訴,我更加唔知道佢講 21 緊邊個屋苑。佢話佢做完視察返嚟係畀詢問我、諮詢我、口頭諮詢我,我從來冇見 22 過有呢啲嘅(English Spoken )勘察報告,相片我冇睇過,圖則我亦都冇睇 23 過。 24 亦都佢聲稱佢係諮詢咗我,然之後,我唔知佢有冇引用我嘅意見嚟到去回覆呢 25 一個投訴,回覆個投訴人,我覺得如果有嘅話,我覺得應該公平啲,對大家都公平 26 啲,就係話應該如果佢套用咗我嘅意見嚟到去回覆投訴人嘅話,佢應該at least 27 話番畀我聽,或者佢有個草稿嘅時候,點樣去回覆個投訴人嘅時候,應該要話番畀 28 我聽。因為咁樣至可以make sure 我個講法同你嘅理解係一致。 29 或者係佢就算冇做到呢一個step,我覺得如果你係套用咗我嘅意見嚟到去回 30 答投訴人嘅話,你係應該畀番個copy 我嘅。我覺得咁樣至係-我知道佢嘅理解係 31 冇錯,因為如果你連個copy 你都唔畀番我,你回覆咗投訴人你都唔畀番我嘅話 32 呢,其實無形中就算我“(English Spoken)”即係叫做,可能萬一你突然間 33 嚟我個位,可能問下我呢條條例個睇法係點樣,可能我真係一時間--我舉例啫,我 34 有啲嘢可能講錯、講漏,咁你都冇畀番個機會我嚟到去更正囉,即係我自己係咁樣 35 嘅睇法。所以你問我佢呢一個case 我有冇印象,好老實講,而家講緊係一年半之 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第二十天

45 本謄本由Epiq 編製 前,佢話嚟我個位嗰度問過我發泡膠封窗法例嗰個嘅點樣睇法,咁我真係冇印象。 1 杜淦堃資深大律師:我都想你幫一幫我哋就係睇一睇你個回覆,喺WS3/1683 頁嗰度呢,你 2 有咁講嘅,喺第2 段呢度。 3 謝錦明先生:係。 4 杜淦堃資深大律師:你話--呢度你睇到你嘅講法喇。 5 謝錦明先生:係。 6 杜淦堃資深大律師:你話“ (English Spoken )” ,跟住你就話“ (English 7 Spoken)”,跟住第二就話“(English Spoken)”,停一停,呢度嘅(B) 8 and(C)就係你轉述,講番一次古先生嗰個似乎聽完你咁講之後,佢嗰個認知喇, 9 係咪? 10 謝錦明先生:冇錯。 11 杜淦堃資深大律師:跟住你就講咗,喺下一段嗰度你話“(English Spoken)”,跟住 12 你就講話你其實就喺英國Grenfell Tower 大火之後,你喺BD--喺2017 年嗰 13 陣你就做過一啲工作嘅,你首先同我哋講一講你做過啲咩嘢工作先? 14 謝錦明先生:好呀。咁喺2017 年英國倫敦有個Tower 叫Grenfell Tower,佢係大火 15 喇,佢因為係做緊一啲翻新工程嘅時候就係大火嘅。當時其中一個好重要嘅原因就 16 係因為個外牆有啲叫(English Spoken),即係鋁質--我哋叫鋁質嵌板,即係有 17 啲大廈就係黐瓦仔喇,有啲大廈就一塊塊嗰啲鋁板咁拍落去。 18 因為佢嗰塊鋁板本身就會入面有一啲嘅發泡膠嘅物質嘅,(English 19 Spoken)嘅,我唔記得幾多mm,唔知3mm 定幾多mm。就係因為佢有一啲咁樣嘅 20 易燃物件--易燃嘅發泡膠,佢(English Spoken)有一日佢就火燭,咁佢火燭 21 就成個大廈都著咗火,即係好似大廈着咗件衫咁,成個大廈著咗火。咁就嗰個大火 22 之後,屋宇署都有跟進嘅工作嘅,咁嗰陣時就屋宇署就成立咗一個特別隊伍嘅,就 23 係諗住就係搵晒香港有(English Spoken),即係類似外牆物料嘅大廈出嚟, 24 再去跟進。 25 咁我記得有一日就嗰個(English Spoken),即係嗰個專責職務隊,咁就 26 通知我,話我嗰區嘅大廈,一個商業大廈就有類似(English Spoken )嗰個 27 (English Spoken),即係鋁質嵌板,咁當時二零--我應該大約係2017 或者 28 18 年咁上下嗰陣時,嗰陣時我都係喺現存樓宇組度做嘅,屋宇署,咁係 29 (English Spoken)都係。 30 咁就我收到嗰個特別職務隊嘅通知之後,咁我同我同事就係做咗一個調查同埋 31 跟進嘅工作,咁我記得當時嗰個過程就唔係太順利嘅。因為當中就搵到好多其他嘅 32 違規嘅事項,咁我哋--我同我同事都喺嗰個搜證嘅工作裏面,我記得都做咗好大量 33 同埋好長時間嘅工夫。包括咗𠳕晒所有嘅(English Spoken)出嚟,包括係當 34 時起樓,之後做更改,同埋喺其他(English Spoken)嘅紀錄出嚟,因為係確 35 保我哋係必定一定係要確立到嗰個事實,我哋至夠膽進行--即係做下一步嘅行動嘅 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第二十天

46 本謄本由Epiq 編製 取替行動。 1 當然最後我記得嗰個case,我同我同事就花咗我諗半年或者有多嘅時間,去 2 做一個搜證嘅工作。咁同時亦都--我記得係都係訪問過當時相關嘅AP,即係認可 3 人士,啲(English Spoken),同埋當時喺嗰座商業大廈嘅管業處。因為係想 4 攞多啲資料,確保嗰個嘅調查工作係準確,同埋百分百準確,我哋至會採取個跟進 5 行動。咁就我記得嗰個即係調查嘅過程係好長嘅,最後我記得我哋係--我哋首先係 6 出咗信先嘅,叫佢拆,但係佢唔願意拆,咁結果最後我哋--我自己係出咗一個《清 7 拆令》叫佢拆嘅。所以我對呢一個(English Spoken)就都好有印象,亦都體 8 會到一點,就係話喺外牆,特別係如果你大量咁樣黐啲發泡膠上去,係有一個潛在 9 嘅風險喺度。 10 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白。所以你喺呢度就話,我見到你呢段嘅最屘,你就話其實你--所以 11 你係有一個好清楚嘅認知,就係如果用呢啲發泡膠嘅物料喺外牆嗰度,就會可能有 12 問題? 13 謝錦明先生:正確,因為係有一個潛在嘅火險喺度。 14 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁所以你就話,所以你--古先生話問過你呢一樣嘢,你就話應該唔會係 15 你會講嘅嘢,係咪? 16 謝錦明先生:因為尤其是佢講B、C 呢兩點,B 嗰點,因為佢就話係冇任何嘅法例,《建築 17 物條例》或者係任何嘅指引、任何嘅條例、任何嘅規則、任何嘅《作業守則》,都 18 唔(English Spoken)落呢一個發泡膠封窗嘅。撇除咗係同一個建築物嗰個嘅 19 專業嘅角度嚟到睇,我覺得呢句說話係冇可能咁輕易講出嚟嘅,點解?因為我覺得 20 呢句說話背後嗰個嘅理據就好薄弱下。因為你講到即係所有嘅嘢、所有嘅法例都唔 21 適用嘅,調番轉如果有人可以舉到一個--一條條例,(English Spoken)可能 22 喺嗰啲叫做(English Spoken)嗰度嘅話,已經可以推翻咗你呢一個嘅說法。 23 所以我覺得就算唔好話從一個《建築物條例》嗰個角度,我覺得條條例你咁樣講 24 法,我覺得都係--我咁講係非常之決絕囉講到。 25 杜淦堃資深大律師:C 呢? 26 謝錦明先生:C 嗰點就係,我自己嘅認知就係,其實因為你大廈嗰個外牆全部如果係黐晒發 27 泡膠,係會有個火險喺度。同埋嚟講,當時嚟講,我收到委員會叫我去回應呢兩點 28 嘅時候,我對呢個宏福苑其實係完全冇認知嘅,因為我係從來都未見過宏福苑係點 29 嘅樣,我對宏福苑嘅認知同我諗一般香港嘅市民一樣,都係去到舊年嘅11 月幾多 30 號,喺新聞睇到嘅,而我喺新聞睇到嘅片段就係成個屋苑著咗火,同埋話係有好多 31 嘅發泡膠,幾乎全部嘅窗都係封晒發泡膠。所以我覺得喺咁樣嘅--我睇到咁樣嘅情 32 況底下,我覺得你話發泡膠係冇一個火險喺度,冇個要求,我係接受唔到嘅。 33 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋見到你嘅解釋,你--古先生喺佢第三份嘅證人供詞裏面有進一步嘅 34 陳述,基本上佢話當時佢係唔知道發泡膠會用好長嘅時間,亦唔知道會用幾多發泡 35 膠板嘅。咁你--如果我睇番你最新嘅畀我哋嘅一個信件,喺WS16/2200,你有一 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第二十天

47 本謄本由Epiq 編製 個講法嘅,基本上就係你話「如果」--喺你最大嗰段嘅中間,你話「基本上如果個 1 發泡膠板係用好少量嘅單位,亦都用好短嘅時間」,呢個你覺得未必係一個違規嚟 2 嘅,係咪?可唔可以咁講? 3 謝錦明先生:可以咁講。因為就--我諗咁樣講,其實法理嘅依據就係話,我哋根據《建築物 4 (建造)條例》(《建築物(建造)規例》?)第16 條,就係話當我哋進行任何 5 建築工程嘅時候,都要採取一個適當嘅防禦措施,而你喺外牆做打鑿嘅時候,換外 6 牆做打鑿嘅時候,因為有機會--或者容許我講多少少,做打鑿嘅時候,有機會係令 7 到啲玻璃窗會爆,所以係法例亦都係有要--你話完全唔做嘢,亦都係符合唔到呢一 8 個《建築物(建造)條例》(《建築物(建造)規例》?)第16 條嘅。 9 咁係事實上係需要去做一啲防禦措施,但係嗰個重點就係話要係一個合適嘅防 10 禦措施,咁究竟點樣至係一個合適嘅防禦措施,咁就要睇下唔同嘅情況。所以我覺 11 得就係話,如果你喺外牆做打鑿嘅時候,譬如某個樓層做打鑿嘅時候,你嗰個樓層 12 你鋪番啲發泡膠板,例如發泡膠板,做完咗之後你拆嘅話,咁短時間,我覺得係可 13 以覺得係--我自己覺得係冇違反法例嘅精神嘅,冇違反呢個《建築物條例》(建 14 造)條例第16 條嘅,因為我自己覺得條例本身喺度,條例本身喺度,有時做嘢都 15 要有啲彈性,如果你話完全一定唔畀㗎嘞,咁好老實講,當然我唔係大維修嘅專 16 家,我唔知有啲咩嘢物料可以咁樣做到一個臨時嘅保護,又完全係可以(English 17 Spoken)得到--即係滿足得到防火嘅要求,又話完全係要係透明嘅咁樣,咁我諗 18 --即係我呢一刻我諗唔到。 19 所以我點解咁樣答,就係話基於頭先嗰個考慮,當然,當時--我首先我都必須 20 要強調一點就係話,其實我真係唔記得佢有冇咁樣問過我,或者佢用乜嘢嘅形式去 21 問我,不過我好肯定一點就係話,我係完全係冇詳細嘅資料,例如係--我亦都冇見 22 過個相,更加唔知道邊一度地方,亦都唔知道個投訴,佢嘅重點係喺度想講乜嘢, 23 佢只係話喂,據佢個描述就係話,如果用發泡膠封窗,個法例嗰個要求係點樣,有 24 冇違規,就係咁樣。 25 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋而家知道就係,我哋講緊嘅就係一個大範圍。 26 謝錦明先生:係。 27 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係成棟封晒。 28 謝錦明先生:係。 29 杜淦堃資深大律師:亦都封咗一段好長嘅時間。 30 謝錦明先生:係。 31 杜淦堃資深大律師:對於你頭先解釋嘅理解,呢一個做法可唔可以話係冇可能合乎第16 條 32 嘅規定? 33 謝錦明先生:絕對同意。 34 杜淦堃資深大律師:另外仲有一點想勞煩你嘅就係,你喺你第一封信入面講,如果ICU 去巡 35 查棚網,中途發現多個單位,外面都貼有發泡膠嘅,喺窗門嗰度嘅,你話ICU 應該 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第二十天

48 本謄本由Epiq 編製 即場做一個口頭警告,之後再發一啲(English Spoken)嘅。 1 謝錦明先生:正確。 2 杜淦堃資深大律師:1686 頁嗰度,我見到你--係,上高嗰度係咁寫嘅。 3 謝錦明先生:係。 4 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁你講到嘅就係,據你嘅理解就係有關嘅同事,應該就第一,就係攞多 5 啲資料,第二,“(English Spoken)”,要求一個解釋,睇下個發泡膠就係- 6 -同埋睇下個發泡膠係咪淨係幾個單位,或者係咪淨係某一層,但係你就咁講嘅,如 7 果個發泡膠板係遮蓋好大範圍,而如果冇一個合理嘅解釋,呢個就唔可以接受嘅, 8 你覺得之後就應該警告佢,同埋再採取行動嘅? 9 謝錦明先生:完全同意。我覺得... 10 杜淦堃資深大律師:你會--我想問下你,我或者咁問你。 11 謝錦明先生:唔好意思。 12 杜淦堃資深大律師:你覺得喺呢個情況之下,第一,聽你頭先咁講,就表面上高就唔可以接 13 受,係咪? 14 謝錦明先生:冇錯。 15 杜淦堃資深大律師:第二,你話要有合理嘅解釋,佢呢個情況之下,有咩嘢可以解釋到,你 16 可唔可以--你指嘅係乜嘢,或者? 17 謝錦明先生:其實凡係我哋去到--我哋叫睇(English Spoken),去到現場環境,我哋 18 發覺到有一啲違規嘅嘢,我哋其實都會畀個機會個判頭,或者如果有顧問嘅,我哋 19 一定要畀個機會佢解釋。當然我哋未必諗到,有啲有啲情況我哋未必諗到嘅,可能 20 佢有啲特別嘅原因,但係我覺得點都係一定要畀個機會人哋解釋咗先,呢個係我哋 21 一貫嘅做法。 22 唔好話係淨係話發泡膠封窗,就甚至乎我哋喺(English Spoken),可能 23 喺地盤搵到其他嘅唔妥當嘅嘢、違規嘅嘢,我哋第一樣嘢,我哋都係要畀個機會人 24 哋解釋,聽咗人哋解釋係咩嘢一回事先。然之後如果係真係覺得唔合理嘅,或者係 25 表面上都係冇道理嘅,都係覺得係有危險嘅,咁我覺得就--我自己嘅做法就一定-- 26 如果你話大範圍嘅覆蓋嘅話,就一定係要當時即刻要畀個警告佢,並且要求佢係去 27 移除嘅。 28 然之後呢啲case 嚟講,如果我照我自己嘅做法,就一定係要(English 29 Spoken),返到嚟寫字樓嘅時候,可能要有啲文件嘅嘢要做,例如係要正式要發 30 封信畀嗰個(English Spoken),或者嗰個嘅顧問,要求佢解釋,正式要求佢 31 解釋,同埋畀一個合理嘅時間佢,冇合理嘅解釋就要清拆。 32 跟住都係--呢啲有火警風險嘅嘅巡查嘅發現,我覺得一定係要再跟進落去嘅, 33 要將個case--除咗出信之外,出完信亦都要再去(English Spoken),要再 34 去睇嘅,確保係真係冇個火險,冇個危險喺度,我哋至安心。 35 杜淦堃資深大律師:你都有提到一個女士嘅講法,你睇番呢封信嘅底嗰度。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第二十天

49 本謄本由Epiq 編製 謝錦明先生:係。 1 杜淦堃資深大律師:你呢度提到一個建築物嘅消防安全守則,你提到呢度見到5.6(f)。 2 謝錦明先生:係。 3 杜淦堃資深大律師:同埋你會見到上高其實都有講嘅5.6(f)嗰度,因為我哋問你嗰條問 4 題亦都有提到嘅。 5 謝錦明先生:係。 6 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想你解一解畀大家聽,你呢個答案,你嘅意思係乜嘢? 7 謝錦明先生:係,我見到委員會第7 條問題就係話,佢引用咗呢一個我哋叫做消防安全嘅 8 《作業守則》嘅(English Spoken)嘅守則嘅第F5.6(f)嗰點就係話,我個 9 理解就係話,其實嗰個--條條例就係話,嗰啲如果係有危險嘅建築物料就應該係妥 10 為保存。咁就係話,我嘅理解,委員會想問我就係話「如果嗰啲發泡膠已經封咗喺 11 個窗嗰度,咁樣嘅情況之下算唔算唔係妥為保存?」咁樣,所以我個答案就係話, 12 因為佢唔係周圍擺,而家啲發泡膠唔係周圍擺,佢係已經係黐咗喺嗰個嘅玻璃窗嗰 13 度,所以我就唔係覺得話,呢種係一啲建築物料周圍擺,引致到有火險嗰個情況, 14 所以我自己覺得唔係嗰個F5.6(f)嗰個嘅精神,我自己嘅理解係咁樣。 15 杜淦堃資深大律師:所以你呢度其實--你都好公道就咁講,你演繹番相關條例你嘅理解? 16 謝錦明先生:係。 17 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係如--就算唔犯呢條條例,我聽你嘅證供,你都係覺得係干犯咗第二 18 啲嘅條例嘅? 19 謝錦明先生:冇錯。 20 杜淦堃資深大律師:而最明顯干犯咗嘅係邊一條,會係? 21 謝錦明先生:係《建築物(建造)條例》(《建築物(建造)規例》?)第16 條,就係話 22 頭先我所講嘅,當你進行建築工程嘅時候,需要提供合適嘅防禦措施。 23 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔該晒,多謝你嚟協助我哋。 24 謝錦明先生:哦,好,okay,唔該晒咁多位。 25 陸啟康法官:等一陣,等一陣。其他涉事方?咁跟住政府代表有冇,孫大律師有冇提問? 26 孫靖乾資深大律師:係,多謝主席,我冇其他問題。 27 陸啟康法官:咁今日--謝生,好多謝你今日嚟協助我哋,你嘅證供對我哋理解件事非常之有 28 助。 29 謝錦明先生:Okay,唔該晒咁多位。 30 陸啟康法官:唔該晒你,好。 31

32 14 時50 分屋宇署前高級屋宇測量師(屋宇管制)(由 2023 年 4 月 25 日至 2025 年 7 33 月 6 日借調至 房屋局獨立審查組)證人謝錦明先生作供完畢 34

35 14 時50 分民政事務總署大埔民政事務處聯絡主任(5A)證人柯煒妍女士開始作供 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第二十天

50 本謄本由Epiq 編製

1 杜淦堃資深大律師:主席,下一位證人係柯煒姸女士。 2 柯女士,你好,麻煩你都將你面前嘅聲明企喺身讀一讀出嚟。 3 柯煒姸女士:本人柯煒姸聲明,本人所作證供,盡本人所知、所悉及所屬--所信,均屬真 4 實。 5 杜淦堃資深大律師:麻煩你,請坐。柯小姐,你向委員會提交咗一份證人陳述書,嗰份陳述 6 書喺我哋文件夾WS1/528 頁,相信你之前都睇過,亦都有確認裏面嘅內容,係 7 咪? 8 柯煒姸女士:確認。 9 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,你大約喺2019 年加入民政事務處,係咪?當時你開始喺大埔區嘅 10 民政事務處擔任聯絡主任,係咪? 11 柯煒姸女士:我係2024 年1 月調任大埔民政事務處。 12 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁你之前係--嘅崗位喺邊度,19 年之後? 13 柯煒姸女士:19 年嘅時候我喺沙田區嘅,之後喺22 年嘅時候去咗葵青區,咁24 年嘅時候 14 就去咗大埔。 15 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白。根據你陳述書第1 段都有講,你嘅職責係包括大廈管理同業主立 16 案法團相關嘅事宜,例如被邀請出席一啲業主大會嘅,係咪? 17 柯煒姸女士:係。 18 杜淦堃資深大律師:你之前喺第二個區係咪做差不多嘅工作都係? 19 柯煒姸女士:之前嗰區會比較多啲,咁我喺葵青嗰個崗位,自己本職嗰度有大概有八十個法 20 團,咁連埋有一段時間(English Spoken)隔籬嘅時候就大概百四個左右,咁 21 大埔區呢度就四個法團。 22 杜淦堃資深大律師:四個啫? 23 柯煒姸女士:四個。 24 杜淦堃資深大律師:你嘅工作包唔包括處理一啲就大廈物業管理相關嘅投訴? 25 柯煒姸女士:包括嘅。 26 杜淦堃資深大律師:如果嗰個投訴譬如同啲我哋熟悉嘅《建築物管理條例》無關,或者涉及 27 可能一啲其他部門嘅範疇,你嘅做法係唔係都係轉介畀其他部門去處理呢? 28 柯煒姸女士:如果係就住大廈管理相關嘅投訴,其實一般我哋民政事務處同大廈管理聯絡小 29 組同地區嘅一啲法團或者一啲嘅居民組織都會有啲聯絡嘅,通常收到呢一啲投訴嘅 30 話,我哋都會即係睇下聯唔聯絡到嗰個投訴人,了解下嗰個事情,咁就再按照佢投 31 訴嘅內容就睇下點樣跟進,如果有需要就轉介畀其他部門。 32 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白。我哋見到喺我哋調查範圍裏面,我哋亦都見到一啲業主大會嘅紀 33 錄,有時大廈或者屋苑都會邀請民政事務處嘅職員出席嘅,呢個係普唔普遍嘅? 34 柯煒姸女士:普遍嘅。 35 杜淦堃資深大律師:你哋去呢啲業主會,其實嗰個工作或者處理嘅事情可唔可以都略略咁介 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第二十天

51 本謄本由Epiq 編製 紹畀我哋聽呢? 1 柯煒姸女士:其實我哋民政處喺地區嘅大廈管理工作,主要做一個促進者嘅角色,其實我哋 2 會接觸到唔同嘅居民組織,我哋會去了解一下佢哋有冇啲咩嘢需要,咁亦都喺《建 3 築物條例》嗰個框架下就住法團管理或者會議程序嗰啲畀一啲意見嘅。 4 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋見到紀錄,就喺2024 年你調到嚟大埔開始,你都有被宏福苑邀請 5 去參加一啲嘅會議嘅,係咪? 6 柯煒姸女士:係。 7 杜淦堃資深大律師:相關嘅投訴都係你負責,係咪?即係四棟其中--四個屋苑其中一個就係 8 宏福? 9 柯煒姸女士:係,係。 10 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋見到有啲報告嘅,我都想麻煩你幫一幫我哋。譬如喺G1-1/1005 11 頁。 12 柯煒姸女士:Sorry,可唔可以講... 13 杜淦堃資深大律師:有人會幫你。 14 柯煒姸女士:好。 15 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋見到有啲應邀列席會議嘅報告,呢啲報告係唔係你有份去準備嘅? 16 柯煒姸女士:係。 17 杜淦堃資深大律師:其實係你撰寫,可以咁講? 18 柯煒姸女士:係。 19 杜淦堃資深大律師:我見到係一啲平時指定嘅格式嚟㗎喇,咁就填番相關嘅內容喺裏面嘅。 20 柯煒姸女士:係。 21 杜淦堃資深大律師:就住我哋而家睇到呢份報告,我見到你係負責職員,會議嘅資料就係有 22 個日期2024 年1 月28,宏福苑,咁呢度睇到係業主法案法團嘅會議。如果我哋 23 再落去,會議詳情,睇下一頁,呢度有啲你做嘅紀錄嘅我哋見到。喺列席呢啲大會 24 之前,其實我想問下你,你對於其實譬如開會嘅內容,你會做啲咩嘢工作去了解其 25 實究竟係咩嘢嘅一回事? 26 柯煒姸女士:因為開呢個會之前,其實我啱啱調任去到大埔,本身對宏福苑未有太多認識 27 嘅,所以我收到呢一個會議邀請嘅時候,其實我都做一啲嘅資料搜集,了解一下呢 28 個大廈法團嘅背景。咁我知道宏福苑佢就進行緊大維修,即係1 月28 號呢個會議 29 會就會議決選出呢一個嘅承辦商,我亦都知道宏福苑嘅法團係有參加市建局嘅「招 30 標妥」計劃,亦都有參加佢嗰個資助計劃,亦都知道佢有一間頗具規模嘅管理公司 31 幫手去做一個管理嘅。 32 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋見到你呢度做嘅紀錄,喺會議報告嗰部分,就提到出席嘅業主人數 33 係二百九十三,你見到喺中間有咁講,呢個數你係人哋畀你定係你點去核實,可唔 34 可以話一話畀我哋知呢? 35 柯煒姸女士:當日會議開始嘅時候,我係親耳聽到司儀宣布錄得二百九十三名業主出席會議 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第二十天

52 本謄本由Epiq 編製 咁樣嘅,所以我當時個紀錄就寫「二百九十三」。 1 杜淦堃資深大律師:所以呢個就係佢宣布咗之後,你就得悉一開始開會嗰陣就係呢一個人 2 數,係咪? 3 柯煒姸女士:係,二百九十三。 4 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋知道呢個二百九十三,我想問下你,就係根據你嘅理解,其實呢一 5 個係出席在場嘅人數定係加唔加埋授權票? 6 柯煒姸女士:其實因為嘅條例係冇要求到要寫--即係分開講親身出席嘅人數同埋授權票嘅, 7 所以呢一個係包括晒親身出席同埋授權票。 8 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係總共可以投票嘅,喺開會嗰陣係二百九十三? 9 柯煒姸女士:當時我冇特別去問--因為會議進行緊,所以當時我冇特別問呢個問題。但係因 10 為當時我嘅判斷,就係因為個會議嘅有效性係10%業主人數,而二百九十三係到達 11 咗法定嘅要求,所以會議可以開始。 12 杜淦堃資深大律師:喺聽證會度我哋聽到一啲嘅指控,我哋都想你幫一幫我哋,睇下你有冇 13 認知。例如有啲居民就投訴突然間多咗好多選票,有一個講法就係話正式開會嘅時 14 候,就宣布咗係二百九十三,呢個就係出席加授權票,但係去議程一投嘅結果,就 15 去到有五百七十幾票嘅,所以就係話短短喺開會嘅時間候裏面就多咗咁多票,多咗 16 成二百票嘅,就呢一個講法本身你有冇聽過或者你有冇認知? 17 柯煒姸女士:有聽過,亦都有收到投訴關於呢一個講法,同埋因為我哋後尾睇番嘅紀錄,見 18 到佢都係有大概五百九十名嘅出席,所以同我哋個紀錄唔一樣,所以我都有打去畀 19 管理公司去了解下個情況。 20 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,我哋都想知點解無端端多咗二百人,因為個數目都幾大,所以你哋 21 嘅理解係乜嘢呢? 22 柯煒姸女士:我當初打咗畀管理公司嘅經理去了解呢個情況,唔好意思,呢個我想補充一 23 下,其實當我出席現場嘅時--出席喺會議時候,(English Spoken)呢個會議 24 開始,我有巡視呢個現場,睇下佢有冇按照條例去張貼佢應該要張貼嘅嘢,例如嗰 25 個授權文書嗰個清單。咁我其實現場見到佢有張貼嘅,目測大概有三百個單位左右 26 嘅。我開完會之後返去--即係我都係聽到二百九十三,咁返去都有收到投訴,就關 27 於嗰個五百幾票,實際有五百幾票,所以我都打咗畀管理公司嗰邊去問一問個情 28 況,咁當時嘅經理就同我講,其實因為二百九十三即係係有一個傳達嘅誤會喺度, 29 佢就話其實呢個二百五十三(二百九十三?)因為佢哋都係按法定要求想去掂到 30 10%嘅法定人數,所以其實佢哋聲稱,當時同我講,就大概1 點50 分左右已去到 31 二百九十三,已經掂到個法定人數嘅時候,佢就記錄咗呢個一個數字,用嚟做佢嗰 32 個司儀嘅開場嗰個(English Spoken)咁樣。 33 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係你一點五十幾分去到二百九十三,咁好快及後就會多咗大概二百票 34 喥,咁佢有冇同你講過點解呢?係唔係之後有好多人最屘嗰分鐘嚟或者點樣,你知 35 唔知?冇其他嘅資料? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第二十天

53 本謄本由Epiq 編製 柯煒姸女士:佢哋話佢哋持續登記嘅,所以佢哋--即係我都有話「咁你持續登記嘅,你有冇 1 印象二百九十三係邊一個時間嘅數字呀?咁有一個比較合理嘅解釋。」咁佢當時就 2 答我「大概1 點50 分左右就記錄到二百九十三」。 3 杜淦堃資深大律師:你覺得呢個解釋同你見到,因為你拍低咗嗰個出席嘅授權一覽表,我哋 4 如果睇G3/2728,呢個紀錄係你拍低,係咪? 5 柯煒姸女士:係。 6 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋見到大概有二百八十張授權票,係咪? 7 柯煒姸女士:係。 8 杜淦堃資深大律師:因為如果有二百八十張授權票喥,你有冇問過就係話一開始有二百九十 9 三票,同有二百八十張授權票呢一個去睇,就你現場嘅觀察,呢個合唔合理呢? 10 柯煒姸女士:就我現場嘅觀察,呢樣嘢係合理嘅,因為我當初出席會議嘅時候,見到--留意 11 到現場大概有二百至三百人。 12 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白。所以你嘅意思就係你聽完個解釋之後,你覺得呢個解釋你係可以 13 接受? 14 柯煒姸女士:係。 15 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁呢啲應該就係全部登記咗嘅授權票嚟嘅,係咪? 16 柯煒姸女士:係。 17 杜淦堃資深大律師:如果聽你咁講,嗰日應該係冇一個分開授權票嘅紀錄嘅,係咪? 18 柯煒姸女士:當日喺會議上冇咁樣宣布嘅,因為當時嘅條例冇呢一個要求。 19 杜淦堃資深大律師:我再問下你嘅,睇你幫唔幫到我哋。就係授權票點樣收集你有冇參與? 20 柯煒姸女士:冇參與,但係我知道佢哋係喺每一座嗰度會有一個收集箱,咁佢哋就要按照 21 《建築物管理條例》四十八小時之前入落去嗰個收集箱。咁都有同管理公司嗰邊了 22 解過,咁佢哋都要按照條例就即係喺主席同埋或者嗰個會議主持人決定嗰個授權文 23 書有效性之後,就要發出一個收據,同埋準備呢一個清單張貼喺會議現場。 24 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋亦都想麻煩你睇一睇番你嗰個紀錄,G1-1/1006 頁,我哋見到呢 25 度亦都有提到,就係話有區議員被邀請出席去監票,席間冇提出任何意見。我想問 26 下你,據喺呢個你嘅經驗裏面,呢個常唔常見? 27 柯煒姸女士:你意思係區議員出席? 28 杜淦堃資深大律師:區議員。 29 柯煒姸女士:都算常見。 30 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁佢哋有冇提問?佢哋出席嚟做咩嘢嘅其實? 31 柯煒姸女士:其實咁講,因為大廈管理都係一個民生即係常見嘅議題,其實區議員即係以往 32 無論喺葵青區、大埔區,其實都見到有啲區民當佢喺大廈管理上面嘅事宜,有啲需 33 要向區議員問一啲意見,或者佢哋作為嗰個會議嘅主辦方,佢哋亦都有時邀請區議 34 員主席嗰個會議。 35 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想問下你嘅就係有啲嘅指控,就係話有啲區議員就帶咗佢哋嘅團隊 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第二十天

54 本謄本由Epiq 編製 嚟,甚至乎有啲區民用個講法就係愛嚟對付某些出席嘅街坊,或者好似畀啲壓力 1 佢,呢方面你幫唔幫到我哋,開會嘅時候你有冇留意到一啲你覺得可疑或者需要跟 2 進嘅地方? 3 柯煒姸女士:我出席嘅宏福苑會議總共六次,六次我都冇留意到有呢個情況。 4 杜淦堃資深大律師:如果你有留意到嘅話,或者你喺其他地區有冇見過一啲可能開會,有一 5 啲你睇落去唔尋常,或者同開會嘅議程相關但係需要關注嘅事情,你可唔可以畀啲 6 例子我哋? 7 柯煒姸女士:有嘅,以前我有出席一個法團會議嘅時候,咁我去到個會議嘅現場,就發現佢 8 哋登記入場,業主登記入場時候,就冇派一個議程嘅選票,咁所以我都有去問一問 9 個法團,「咦,冇選票點,你哋一陣間啲議程係會點樣做議決㗎?」咁樣,咁原來 10 嗰個法團嗰份公契就係寫嗰個業權份數係每一個單位都係一嘅啫,所以當時嗰個法 11 團就採取一個比較簡單嘅方法,就係去到議程嘅時候,就會舉手投票就可以。咁所 12 以我係會視乎個情況,去到留意睇下有冇啲乜嘢位置係可能喺嗰會議進行或者會議 13 舉行嘅期間需要關注嘅,咁我就會都去詢問一下,睇下嗰個安排。 14 杜淦堃資深大律師:有一啲居民都講到另外一方面,就係開會嘅時候,可能係有一啲唔愉快 15 嘅情況,有啲摩擦嘅,就宏福苑而言,你可唔可以講畀我哋聽你自己嘅記憶或者紀 16 錄,開會嘅時候有冇一啲摩擦或者你記得嘅地方? 17 柯煒姸女士:如果就我出席呢六次會議,摩擦最大嘅就會係2024 年9 月6 號嗰個會議,因 18 為嗰個會議係應不少於5%嘅業主要求,咁當時佢哋就要求想要撤換當時嘅管理委員 19 會,所以不論係會議嘅前夕定係還是個會議嘅舉行期間都係比較多爭執或者多事情 20 (English Spoken)去我哋度,咁我哋就幫手睇下畀一個建議咁樣。 21 杜淦堃資深大律師:你可唔可以都講一講喺嗰次開會,喺會議嘅期間除咗有人提問或者可能 22 有啲不同嘅意見,講一講啲爭執畀我哋聽,對於你嘅觀察。 23 柯煒姸女士:如果以9 月6 號嗰個會議最大嘅爭執,就應該係去到大概夜晚9 點35 分嘅時 24 候,當時嘅會議主持人,即係前任主席鄧國權佢就宣布因為嗰個租用嘅時間有限, 25 所以佢就未能夠繼續進行之後嘅議程,就宣布要喺嗰個位置暫停個會議,延後個會 26 議咁樣。當場嘅業主都好激動嘅,就要求要繼續舉行個會議,我哋民政處見到即係 27 在場嘅業主都即係好想要繼續堅持個會議,同埋嗰個會議嘅議程其實進行咗兩個, 28 所以我哋亦都民政處主動向校方爭取延長嗰個租用時間,咁令到之後個會議可以繼 29 續舉行埋。 30 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係你嘅記憶就係即係喺你哋介入之後,就解決咗嘅個問題? 31 柯煒姸女士:呢一個就當時我哋都有建議在場嘅業主可以引用條例,當主席同副主席唔在場 32 嘅時候,就可以喺在場嘅業主度揀一個出嚟主持餘下嘅會議,所以9 月6 號嗰個會 33 議都係有繼續完成到去最後嗰個議程嘅。 34 杜淦堃資深大律師:另外一個投訴就係關於授權票,你哋都收過呢啲投訴我相信? 35 柯煒姸女士:收過。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第二十天

55 本謄本由Epiq 編製 杜淦堃資深大律師:我地唔好講之後嘅或者之前書面嘅投訴,講番開會嘅時候,可唔可以話 1 一話畀我哋知宏福苑就授權票呢個範圍,嗰個有冇啲咩嘢你特別記得嘅爭議可以講 2 畀主席或者委員會聽? 3 柯煒姸女士:你嘅意思係開會嗰個過程,係咪?開會嘅時候,我冇特別有印象有就住授權文 4 書有個爭議。 5 杜淦堃資深大律師:好,另外有居民亦都講,就係話有啲街坊發覺自己係被授權或者係想攞 6 番張授權票,想自己去投票,但係有一啲嘅困難,有人留難佢哋,呢一方面你講唔 7 講到任何嘢畀我哋聽呢?有冇處理過呢啲投訴? 8 柯煒姸女士:呢一個個別嘅個案就冇嚟到我呢度,所以我唔知悉呢個個案。但係一般... 9 杜淦堃資深大律師:有咩嘢嚟到你嗰度,你可以講畀我哋聽? 10 柯煒姸女士:一般大廈管理嚟講,其實我哋都會收到有好多嘅查詢或者質疑,即係可能質疑 11 嗰個授權票文書嗰個嘅有效性或者嗰個真偽,其實我哋都會留意--即係都會聽取居 12 民嘅意見,即係要聽一聽佢個講法,咁睇下佢有冇一啲明確具體嘅資訊可以畀我哋 13 作進一步嘅轉介。 14 杜淦堃資深大律師:就授權票嘅爭議,你哋會唔會介入去調查? 15 柯煒姸女士:授權票嘅有效性係由個會議主持人就根據條例,即係唔係業主親筆簽名,同埋 16 有冇四十八小姐之前送畀秘書,所以個授權文書嘅有效性係由主席或者嗰個會議主 17 持人去決定,所以變咗我哋呢一個位置其實係冇足夠嘅資訊去做一個介入。 18 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係你哋唔會去處理,留番管理公司同法團去做呢樣嘢? 19 柯煒姸女士:因為嗰個授權文書嘅有效性係佢哋決定。 20 杜淦堃資深大律師:主席,呢個可能係一個合適嘅時候,我哋可以晏晝都有個小休,我哋應 21 該做得完今日。 22 陸啟康法官:Okay,十分鐘。 23 杜淦堃資深大律師:十分鐘。 24 陸啟康法官:十分鐘,好,休息十分鐘。 25

26 15 時10 分聆訊押後 27 15 時20 分聆訊恢復 28

29 杜淦堃資深大律師:柯小姐,我哋睇番你準備頭先睇過嗰份報告,G1-1/1006 頁,似乎你 30 亦都有提到業主對有啲關於佢哋知情權係當時有啲不滿嘅,因為你都記錄低嘞, 31 「有業主對於會議不設答問環節表示不滿,惟會議仍繼續進行嘅」。呢個之後亦都 32 係有啲書面嘅投訴嘅。就呢啲事情你哋會唔會跟進㗎? 33 柯煒姸女士:其實就呢一個會議之前我都有--即係去會議之前我有同管理公司喇,當日都有 34 同法團主席了解過,我亦都有睇過file,其實見到佢哋就住呢一個維修工程,之 35 前都有開一啲嘅工程諮詢會嘅,咁嗰啲會議上面呢,其實都係畀顧問公司、法團、 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第二十天

56 本謄本由Epiq 編製 居民可以就住工程嘅細節去交流。我其實同主席、經理佢哋聯絡嘅時候,其實都知 1 道因為當日個議程係比較多嘅,所以即係如果佢哋有問答環節嘅話,就可能會影響 2 到嗰個議程嘅進行,未必可以喺嗰個會議上面投票,即係完成晒所有嘅議程喇,咁 3 所以佢哋就有呢一個嘅決定嘅,咁我哋即係了解完之後就即係尊重法團嘅決定。 4 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係譬如如果你哋覺得可能真係應該居民有多啲機會提問喎,你哋會做 5 啲咩嘢嘅呢,我想問處方? 6 柯煒姸女士:其實咁講,因為我一般,即係我有記錄喺嗰個會議度,因為覺得不設呢個問答 7 環節,其實都會係居民關注嘅位置喇。咁但係因為其實我哋處理呢一啲會議或者我 8 哋協助法團業主去進行大廈管理嘅事務嘅時候,其實都要權衡兩邊嘅考量嘅。我哋 9 收到有業主向我哋即係覺得呢一樣嘢表示不滿喇,咁我哋會同法團嗰邊了解,但係 10 其實另一方面,法團嗰邊都有好多嘅考量嘅,咁而喺呢一個情況裏面,因為我了解 11 到其實佢哋喺個會議之前已經有進行過兩場嘅工程諮詢會,其實我覺得已經即係有 12 一個渠道畀居民同埋承建商--sorry,顧問公司同埋法團佢哋做一個溝通,所以點 13 解呢一個位置我哋冇再好強烈咁樣同法團跟進,就係因為其實每一個角度都會有佢 14 哋需要考量嘅地方。 15 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係可唔可以咁講呢?如果你哋覺得真係有啲嘢唔妥你哋要跟進,其實 16 你哋個做法都係勸喻番法團之類? 17 柯煒姸女士:其實因為根據《建築物管理條例》,其實條例賦予權利係賦予畀法團、管委會 18 佢哋去決定嗰個會議嘅程序。所以其實好多時候我哋即係會收到有一啲嘅投訴或者 19 現場有一啲嘅做法覺得可以有好啲嘅時候,我哋都會畀一啲建議會議主辦方,即係 20 法團喇,但係如果法團佢經過佢哋自己實際嘅運作嘅考量上面決定採納或者唔採納 21 我哋嘅建議,我哋民政處都尊重佢哋嘅決定。 22 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋知道之後呢,對於喺會議之後呢,對於宏業係有一啲投訴嘅,你哋 23 都收過投訴信,就係喺2 月26 號嗰陣就話關於佢一啲宏業嘅記錄,即係你知道佢 24 個指控就係佢哋曾經畀人暫停佢哋嘅牌照喇,呢啲投訴都去咗你哋嗰度嘅,我想問 25 番你就係開會之前你哋有冇呢個資料,定係開完會之後先知? 26 柯煒姸女士:你意思係就住宏業?定係... 27 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,就住宏業。 28 柯煒姸女士:開會之前我就知悉佢哋係經過招標妥去做招標喇,咁但係嗰個實際嘅內容我就 29 唔知悉嘅。咁我係喺個會議度,出席咗嗰個會議喇,咁當日其實見到佢喺嗰個壁報 30 板上面有張貼晒即係五十七間嘅承建商,咁有佢哋一個簡報咁樣,所以實際嘅 31 detail 內容我哋係--即係喺個會議上面見到佢哋有present,咁會後收到有投 32 訴嘅時候,我哋就見到呢一個嘅投訴。 33 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係開會嗰日你哋就唔知道就宏業其實嗰個係咪違過規呀,係咪畀人停 34 過牌,當日你哋冇資料,係咪? 35 柯煒姸女士:唔知悉。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第二十天

57 本謄本由Epiq 編製 杜淦堃資深大律師:另外想問一問你就係另外一個題目,就係你知道有個爭議就係開會冇幾 1 耐之後都有居民收到投訴,就話,喂,主席拒絕按法定要求召開一個特別嘅業主大 2 會嘅,我相信你記得呢個投訴喇? 3 柯煒姸女士:記得。 4 杜淦堃資深大律師:亦都喺聽證會睇過例如有電郵就發過畀你哋,就話「喂,夠5%,業主唔 5 開會,即係或者管委會主席唔開會」,你記得呢個? 6 柯煒姸女士:記得。 7 杜淦堃資深大律師:資料顯示有十四宗相關嘅投訴嘅,係咪其實呢啲投訴全部都係你處理? 8 柯煒姸女士:係。 9 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋知道你之後出咗四封信畀管委會主席,提醒佢要根據《建築物管理 10 條例》開會嘅,呢啲全部我相信都係你去處理㗎喇,係咪? 11 柯煒姸女士:係。 12 杜淦堃資深大律師:我見到你哋個做法都係其實勸喻佢開會㗎咋,係咪呀? 13 柯煒姸女士:因為根據條例其實係主席嘅個人責任,要去應不少於5%嘅業主要求去召開呢一 14 個大會,亦都係主席嘅個人責任去核實嗰個係咪有不少於5%嘅業主喇,佢亦都要相 15 應去安排嗰個會議喇,所以其實我哋民政處嗰個角色就係當我哋知道有不少於5%嘅 16 業主有發出呢個要求嘅時候,我哋就會同法團,即係主席保持聯絡,敦促佢盡快依 17 從呢個法例去執行呢一件事。 18 杜淦堃資深大律師:其實可唔可以咁講呢?你哋都係勸喻嘅啫,因為我見到你哋連續出咗四 19 封信,其實佢先至有反應,即係當中其實除咗勸喻,你哋都冇咩做到,係咪? 20 柯煒姸女士:係,我哋會透過口頭勸喻同埋出信勸喻,咁除咗嗰四封信之外,其實嗰段時間 21 我都有好多次同法團主席聯絡,咁就希望佢可以儘快跟從呢一個《建築物管理條 22 例》召開會議。 23 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁佢點解唔開,當時佢畀你嘅解釋係咩? 24 柯煒姸女士:當時其實因為佢--我印象中係2 月上旬開始收到有呢個喇,我記得佢第一 25 round 嘅係--即係嗰啲業主係寄掛號信去管理處,當時嘅主席就以佢唔喺個管理 26 處為理由就冇收到嗰啲封信喇,我有打電話同佢講「有呢件事喎,你盡快攞嗰個信 27 去跟從喎」。咁佢就--即係同埋嗰段時間,我記得印象中係挨近呢個農曆新年嘅, 28 所以佢就有一啲嘅原因喇,咁我都有寫喺我嗰個口頭聯絡報告嗰度。 29 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋睇到你分別喺2 月23、3 月5 號、3 月25 號到4 月9 號,寫咗 30 四封內容差不多嘅信畀佢勸喻佢,我哋就咁睇一封,我唔需要睇晒,G1- 31 1/1312 ,我哋見到你都係基本上同佢講番嗰個法定嘅要求,跟住勸喻佢去開會 32 嘅,其實個處理方法都係咁,或者可唔可以咁講呢,其實佢唔開,似乎你哋都冇乜 33 嘢可以做到? 34 柯煒姸女士:可以咁講。 35 杜淦堃資深大律師:直至去到7 月份佢再次收到嗰百分之五嘅業主要求開會,話要罷免個管 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第二十天

58 本謄本由Epiq 編製 委會,因為佢嗰個夾錢時間出現咗個爭議,當時資料顯示你哋都收到七個投訴,係 1 咪?當時我知道你哋有跟進,亦都發出咗四封信畀鄧主席提醒佢要求喇,我哋見到 2 譬如1319 頁,喺呢個文件夾,你都係再次見到你哋敦促佢喇,呢封信同之前嗰啲 3 比呢,嗰個似乎係詳細同嚴厲咗一啲㗎嘞,係咪?可唔可以咁講? 4 柯煒姸女士:可以。 5 杜淦堃資深大律師:係嘞,點解而家你哋就會似乎對佢嗰個提醒好似升咗級比較嚴厲呢,喺 6 呢個階段? 7 柯煒姸女士:其實嗰個書信內容上面寫嘅嘢喇,但係其實我哋兩次嗰個處理方法都係一樣 8 嘅,其實我哋收到有呢一個業主向我哋嘅要求喇,我哋都係即係出勸喻信,同埋不 9 斷咁樣致電主席,希望佢盡快跟從條例去召開嗰個業主大會囉。 10 杜淦堃資深大律師:以你所講,當時你都聽到有人可能會人入稟土地審裁處去話將呢件事帶 11 到去法庭嗰度,係咪? 12 柯煒姸女士:據我嘅理解,兩次嘅要求都有呢一個嘅情況。 13 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁喺你收到呢啲--當然,佢唔開會呢個情況係唔理想喇,係咪?所以你 14 哋先敦促佢哋啫。 15 柯煒姸女士:係,係。 16 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢啲情況之下,你哋會唔會牽涉區議員? 17 柯煒姸女士:牽涉區議員嘅... 18 杜淦堃資深大律師:定係你哋本身唔會牽涉區議員去處理呢啲情況? 19 柯煒姸女士:或者我--牽涉區議員嘅意思係? 20 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係譬如有呢啲咁嘅情況,你哋會唔會同大埔區區議員溝通嘅呢?定係 21 都係只係對番... 22 柯煒姸女士:我呢個崗位就冇囉。 23 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白。 24 柯煒姸女士:其他崗位我就--係嘞。 25 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔。咁除咗寫信畀鄧主席或者同佢口頭有啲溝通之外,你哋有冇其他嘅 26 行動或者其他嘅角色? 27 柯煒姸女士:其實我哋同佢嘅口頭聯絡裏面呢,其實鄧主席佢有同我哋提及佢嘅一個困難, 28 點解佢未開到個會嘅。當初其實有一個原因佢哋--即係時任主席佢有提及嘅呢,就 29 係因為嗰個場地嘅問題,因為其實往常宏福苑喇,即係我去嗰個會議,佢通常可能 30 會係喺區議--sorry,社區會堂喇或者佢哋個屋苑籃球場,或者係附近嗰個小學度 31 做呢一個業主大會嘞。但係因為基於當時好多業主都即係好希望親身出席呢個業主 32 大會,我哋留意到可能嗰啲場地未必能夠容納到呢一個數量嘅業主,咁而法團佢哋 33 都有呢個考量,所以就住喺搵適合嘅場地上面,其實佢哋都有個難處,當時佢哋有 34 同我哋反映嘅。所以我哋收到有呢個難處,亦都即係希望可以促進到呢一件事,所 35 以我哋後尾都係有同學校嗰邊聯絡,最後係成功借出嗰個場地去舉行呢一個業主大 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第二十天

59 本謄本由Epiq 編製 會。 1 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋知道9 月6 號嗰次嘅特別業主大會其實係有超過1,000 名業主出 2 席,1,243,係咪? 3 柯煒姸女士:係。 4 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢個係咪授權加埋出席?定係... 5 柯煒姸女士:係。 6 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋見到比之前嘅會議明顯地多喇。 7 柯煒姸女士:係。 8 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋都睇到你個報告,喺1044 頁,呢個文件夾,係咪好似上次咁,即 9 係宣布--未開始開會之前已經宣布咗嗰個出席人數㗎? 10 柯煒姸女士:係,即係開始會議嘅時候會,佢哋就會講一句,就講話而家出席嘅人數係幾 11 多,咁已經係去到法定要求。 12 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋見到你呢度有講,喺第3 段,「據管理公司稱」呢一度,「法團邀 13 請四十名工作人員,包括保安,跟住同樣有啲關愛隊喇,派出三十多名協助」,跟 14 住亦都講番「有啲建制派嘅議員出席」,咁佢講佢哋幾個出嚟喇。我想問下你,嗰 15 啲保安同關愛隊係邊個請嚟㗎? 16 柯煒姸女士:保安就係管理公司嘅,關愛隊嘅話我就唔太清楚係邊一個議員。 17 杜淦堃資深大律師:有冇人係你哋請嚟? 18 柯煒姸女士:冇。 19 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢啲亦都講有啲區議員出席,開會嗰陣佢哋有冇角色㗎? 20 柯煒姸女士:有冇角色? 21 杜淦堃資深大律師:開會嗰陣,譬如佢哋扮演咗咩嘢角色呢,開會嗰陣? 22 柯煒姸女士:法團邀請佢哋列席嗰個會議嘅。 23 杜淦堃資深大律師:淨係列席嘅啫,有冇做嘢佢哋係?個會有冇實質嘅作用呀?除咗嚟坐之 24 外? 25 柯煒姸女士:我印象中佢哋喺--時任主席就話要延後個會議,唔再舉行個會議時候呢,佢哋 26 係有勸喻佢離開個場地咁樣嘅。 27 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋睇到之後嘅記錄,如果我哋睇番841 頁。我哋見到有啲電郵都係你 28 處理過,就係徐滿柑先生嘅投訴,係咪?你落去,你睇第--一路落,亦都有一啲嘅 29 投訴係關於區議員嘅,就係徐滿柑先生作出嘅。呢個投訴你有處理喇後來,係咪? 30 柯煒姸女士:有。 31 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想問下你嘞,電郵係9 月3 號喇你見到--9 月4 號喇,係個回覆, 32 就係你回覆喇,9 月3 號就係個投訴喇,開會之前有冇任何行動去處理呢啲投訴? 33 柯煒姸女士:其實因為呢一個投訴其實根據《建築物管理條例》,咁如果佢違反嗰個條例嘅 34 要求,即係就住授權文書有違反嗰個條例嘅要求,我哋會同法團嗰邊聯絡。咁但係 35 我冇見到佢有違反嗰個《建築物管理條例》嘅要求,即係包括業主親筆簽名喇,同 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第二十天

60 本謄本由Epiq 編製 埋四十八小時之前送抵秘書。 1 杜淦堃資深大律師:所以你睇完呢個投訴之後,你哋就覺得因為冇違反我哋知道BMO 裏面嘅 2 要求,所以你哋冇行動跟進,係咪呀?可唔可以咁講? 3 柯煒姸女士:我呢一個崗位。 4 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁其他人呢,你知唔知道? 5 柯煒姸女士:我就呢個就... 6 杜淦堃資深大律師:講唔到嘞,係咪?睇番840 或者,好讓大家知道你個回覆,呢度就係我 7 哋睇到之後有一啲關注嘅事件,呢個都係當時同你講嘅一樣嘞,其實你哋個角色就 8 係跟番BMO,就睇下有冇違規嘅事情。但係如果就算跟BMO 有違規嘅事情,你哋會 9 採取啲咩嘢行動?你哋有冇角色嘅呢?定係其實都係法團同埋業主嘅事呢? 10 柯煒姸女士:我哋會同法團聯絡嘅,我哋會提供適當嘅勸喻。 11 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係基本上都係勸喻,你哋個角色。至於有冇人違反BMO 呢一樣嘢,我 12 想問你哋點去確定冇違反有關嘅條文?如果你睇到有關嘅投訴之後? 13 柯煒姸女士:因為佢嗰個投訴內容係話「獲取授權文書」,咁其實授權文書本身係一個文 14 件,係當業主唔能夠親身出席業主大會嘅時候,佢可以授權佢信任嘅人出席一個大 15 會,代替佢,履行佢嘅權利。咁所以我冇--即係喺嗰個電郵裏面,我冇一個具體嘅 16 違反呢一個... 17 杜淦堃資深大律師:或者咁講好唔好呢?如果去咁樣理解啱唔啱呢?有啲指控就係話有某些 18 區議員就用一啲方法去誘使啲居民畀咗個授權票佢,或者有啲居民就話,有啲區員 19 畀咗啲不當嘅壓力或者用啲不當嘅手法去攞啲授權票,呢啲係咪你哋會調查嘅範圍 20 嚟㗎? 21 柯煒姸女士:如果我有具體而明確嘅資訊嘅話,我哋就會再做進一步嘅跟進。 22 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白。 23 柯煒姸女士:其實喺呢一個指控裏面,因為其實我冇收到即係授權出去嗰位業主向我求助。 24 杜淦堃資深大律師:係。 25 柯煒姸女士:所以變咗呢一個位置,即係喺人哋有一個指控嘅情況下,我冇一個明確嘅資 26 訊,其實我好難做一個進一步嘅跟進。 27 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白,至於有指控話有議員去擺街站問其他人攞授權票,喺擺街站嘅時 28 候,用一啲不當嘅手法獲取到授權票,呢個我相信你嘅答案會同頭先一樣喇,如果 29 你有--嗰個投訴人本身講得清晰少少,就係如果佢話佢畀人呃咗,你哋會跟進,但 30 係冇投訴人本身嚟搵你哋,你嘅講法係咪咁? 31 柯煒姸女士:係,因為我哋其實一般都會收到好多即係查詢電話或者呢一啲內容,就係話聽 32 到居民咁樣,有居民咁樣,但係冇實質明確嘅投訴人嗰個資料,或者我可以打去同 33 佢再了解一下個情況,其實我哋好難可以喺呢一個位置進一步跟進。 34 杜淦堃資深大律師:我睇番個電郵,如果响842 呢,我哋見到佢亦都有一啲錄音係喺個底部 35 嗰度,喺個電郵嗰度有啲附件嘅。你見到上高寫住喇,拉票時有啲錄音嘅,你哋有 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第二十天

61 本謄本由Epiq 編製 冇去聽過嗰啲錄音?睇下有冇證據。 1 柯煒姸女士:呢個file 我當時開唔到,所以聽唔到。 2 杜淦堃資深大律師:所以冇跟進? 3 柯煒姸女士:聽唔到呢一個位置。 4 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁你有冇問番投訴人,可唔可以畀番--即係跟進呢件事話「可唔可以畀 5 --我開唔到,畀番我」? 6 柯煒姸女士:呢一個位置我冇致電。 7 杜淦堃資深大律師:另外我想同你講番就開會時候嘅爭議,你跟住亦都講過1044 頁,如果 8 我哋睇番,你有個詳細嘅紀錄,你見到呢度就話,下低都講到,如果睇番落啲,最 9 低嗰段,「司儀邀請喺在場兩名嘉賓同兩名業主嘅監票,監察組要求律師代表一同 10 監票,法團顧問就詢問代表是否業主」,跟住然之後有一啲嘅爭議,咁最終喺在場 11 嘅檔主,見唔見到? 12 柯煒姸女士:「業主要求下」。 13 杜淦堃資深大律師:「業主要求下」。係,「由會計師、雙方律師同埋兩名嘉賓,跟住六名 14 業主一同監票,另外亦有在場業主要求直播點票,法庭技術上就配合唔到」。我想 15 問下你監票嘅人士啫,呢度有兩名嘉賓,係講唔講到咩嘢人監票? 16 柯煒姸女士:我冇印象。 17 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白。你--民政事務處對呢啲嘅爭議,會唔會畀任何意見畀啲居民? 18 柯煒姸女士:要視乎現場個情況。 19 杜淦堃資深大律師:嗰一次呢? 20 柯煒姸女士:嗰一次我印象中佢哋最後有達成到共識嘅,所以我哋冇特別去提供協助。 21 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋知道點票之後就有50%嘅人贊成,決定即係就要根據佢哋5%業主嘅 22 要求,咁就罷免法團嗰個議程,就進行咗投票。我哋見到你之後都作出一啲紀錄 23 嘅,1045 頁,你見到喺嗰個--你個列表底下,「在第一個會議結束後,法團律師 24 向在場業主講解罷免管委會嘅後果,在場業主就鼓噪」嘅,我哋見到。可唔可以講 25 一講就係當時嗰個情況係點?即係佢哋點解咁不滿? 26 柯煒姸女士:當時在場嘅業主想儘快繼續進行其後嘅議程,但係法團嘅律師就有一啲講解, 27 所以在場嘅業主就想佢快啲完成佢嘅講解,咁就可以繼續進行下一個議程。 28 杜淦堃資深大律師:跟住我哋見到黎經理就提醒啲業主,「換屆可能影響市建局嗰個資助計 29 劃嘅進度」,然之後亦都講到「個大維修戶口係十二屆法團設立,轉屆會凍結戶 30 口,銀行轉名嘅手續都可能得到--有延誤嘅」,當時大家嘅反應係點? 31 柯煒姸女士:都係鼓噪。 32 杜淦堃資深大律師:即係嗰個會議係基本上喺爭議聲中進行嘅? 33 柯煒姸女士:係。 34 杜淦堃資深大律師:跟住我哋見到你記錄咗議程二嘅,下低,就係舊法團即係嗰個罷免過 35 程。跟住然之後,「在通過議程一和二後,法團宣布因為學校租用嘅時間到晚上10 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第二十天

62 本謄本由Epiq 編製 點,跟住就其他就唔做嘞,就反應激動」,呢個係你頭先講嗰個情況,係咪? 1 柯煒姸女士:係。 2 杜淦堃資深大律師:跟住你就講,基本上就你哋去協調之下,就可以繼續會議? 3 柯煒姸女士:延長租用時間至... 4 杜淦堃資深大律師:見到「上任主席在多名民建聯區議員陪同下離場」,即係現屆主席當時 5 就唔繼續主持會議,佢走咗? 6 柯煒姸女士:係,鄧國權佢當時離開咗現場。 7 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,跟住你就叫--基本上你就建議咗啲業主... 8 柯煒姸女士:可以引用,係。 9 杜淦堃資深大律師:...可以引用《建築物管理條例》附表3 嘅權力,就繼續開會? 10 柯煒姸女士:係,喺與會嘅業主裏面揀一位業主繼續主持餘下嘅議程。 11 杜淦堃資深大律師:咁你解釋呢個情況,我哋就係想問番你嘅,就係咁當時就係啲區議員就 12 陪咗鄧國權就離開咗? 13 柯煒姸女士:係。 14 杜淦堃資深大律師:係全部區議員走晒,係咪? 15 柯煒姸女士:呢個我... 16 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔記得,okay。 17 柯煒姸女士:係。 18 杜淦堃資深大律師:你就繼續留低喺度觀察個會議同埋做紀錄,係咪? 19 柯煒姸女士:係。 20 杜淦堃資深大律師:柯小姐,多謝你,我冇其他問題想問你。多謝主席。 21 陸啟康法官:各位涉事方有冇問題?孫大律師。 22 孫靖乾資深大律師:係,主席,我會有少少問題。 23 柯小姐,你好,有幾方面想同你再去跟進。咁就第一樣嘢就係,頭先杜大律師 24 就有問過你民政處其實嗰個角色嘅,咁你亦都有即係解釋過,咁你頭先亦都即係有 25 講過話,之前你就未轉去大埔區嘅時候,咁原本你喺沙田區,就甚至乎負責更多嘅 26 其他嘅跟一啲嘅法團嘅情況。 27 我都想問一問,即係喺譬如話一啲咁樣嘅業主或者唔同嘅大廈有業主嘅一啲-- 28 佢哋需要進行一啲嘅會議,或者等等嘅情況,其實你可唔可以再解釋多少少,其實 29 民政處嗰個角色?同埋會唔會有啲唔同類型嘅情況,咁就會係嗰個你哋民政處即係 30 可能去做嘢嘅時候,或者去輔助佢哋會做嗰個角色會有所唔同? 31 柯煒姸女士:其實《建築物管理條例》就應用喺全港好多唔同種類嘅屋宇,法--居民組織 32 度,咁其實我之前嘅崗位有試過去即係負責一啲單棟樓嘅法團嘅,咁其實因為有一 33 啲嘅單棟樓嘅法團,佢可能本身嗰個配套,即係嗰個佢哋未必有管理公司,咁可能 34 就淨係靠法團嘅委員去做呢個大廈管理嘅事務。咁其實我哋民政處喺接觸佢哋唔同 35 嘅居民組織嘅時候,都會了解,睇下佢哋需要咩嘢程度嘅協助,咁我哋就會即係幫 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第二十天

63 本謄本由Epiq 編製 佢哋搵番一啲相關嘅支援服務。 1 咁好似宏福苑咁,因為當初我哋嘅(English Spoken)就係見到佢係一個 2 即係都頗--有--可以運--即係運作得,即係法團都係有一個良好--即係有一個持 3 續嘅運作,而且佢都有個有規模嘅管理公司去幫手。咁而喺招標,嗰個大維修工程 4 嗰方面,我哋都見到佢有搵市建局嗰邊幫手嘅,所以即係我哋當初嘅(English 5 Spoken)就係見到呢一個宏福苑佢嘅--即係我哋就會主要將嗰個資源集中喺嗰個 6 會議嘅程序,或者《建築物管理條例》相關嘅建議方面。 7 孫靖乾資深大律師:好,明白。即係換言之就要睇情況,即係譬如如果有啲單棟樓,佢可能 8 冇咁多資源,亦都唔一定有管理公司,咁就可能你哋會做嘅嘢就會更加即係會唔 9 同,咁宏福苑嚟講,你頭先就講咗話見到即係有管理公司,佢亦都有市建局嘅一啲 10 招標妥嘅即係參與等等,咁你就話所以嗰個資源就可能比較就會集中番,就係睇番 11 嗰個叫做即係《建築物管理條例》,即係(English Spoken)下面嘅程序。 12 咁可唔可以都解釋下,即係譬如--如果譬如舉例,你去列席嗰個會議嘅時候, 13 咁其實--頭先杜大律師都有問你,咁其實最主要你會做啲咩嘢?可唔可以都即係講 14 下譬如話舉例,其中即係每一次會議,通常譬如話你會唔會提前去到,你會做啲乜 15 嘢等等,可唔可以解釋下都? 16 柯煒姸女士:其實一般我出席呢啲法團會議嘅時候,好似我頭先解釋,我都會首先睇一睇呢 17 個法團嘅背景,又或者佢係有邊一個程度嘅支援已經有,咁我一般如果出席呢一啲 18 法團會議嘅話,我會早十五分鐘去做,行一行個圈,睇下其實佢有冇按照條例嘅規 19 定去設置一啲嘅要求,例如好似張貼嗰個授權文書嘅名單清單,咁好似1 月28 號 20 嗰個會議,其實佢因為要通過嗰個承建商嘅選擇,咁我都見到佢有列晒五十七個嘅 21 承建商嘅選擇喺度。 22 孫靖乾資深大律師:係,明白。 23 柯煒姸女士:咁我亦都會去巡視一下,睇一睇佢哋嗰啲登記入場嘅安排係咪順暢,亦都即係 24 有冇令到我生疑嘅地方,又或者有冇按照即係佢哋有做一個登記入場咁樣。 25 孫靖乾資深大律師:好,明白。跟住我再有可能多兩三個問題同你跟進嘅啫。就第一個就係 26 關於嗰個2024 年嗰個9 月6 號嗰個會議,頭先你都有講到,就話去到九點幾嘅時 27 候,即係當時鄧國權主席就有講過話係要押後嗰個會議。我就想你睇一睇,就係純 28 粹睇番有兩份文件,一個就喺G1-1/1043 頁,咁呢個就係你去做嘅嗰個報告,咁 29 就係關於嗰個9 月6 號嘅會議。 30 如果我哋就去到1045 頁,咁1045 頁就我哋而家見到就喺下面睇落去嘅屘二 31 嗰段,就有寫話「在本處協調下,就校方」--或者我哋前面嗰度都可能讀一讀,就 32 係「在通過議程一和二後,晚上9 時35 分,法團宣布因學校租用時間只到晚上10 33 時,餘下議程將於延會商討,在場業主反應激動,要求法團繼續會議」,呢個就係 34 頭先你講話即係會有啲爭端嘅地方,咁你就講到話「本處」,亦即係話民政處, 35 「協調下面,校方係同意延長租用時間至晚上11 時,咁而上任主席喺多名嘅民建 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第二十天

64 本謄本由Epiq 編製 聯區議員陪同下離場」,咁佢哋就離開,然之後「在場嘅業主就引用《建築物管理 1 條例》附表3 嘅第1(c)條,就喺在場業主同意之下,就由江祥發先生就擔任呢 2 個主持,就繼續餘下嘅議程」。即係呢個就係你頭先解釋就話發生嘅情況,亦都即 3 係民政事務處係咪即係你哋都有係提供一啲嘅意見,即係話佢哋可以用呢個方式係 4 繼續進行嗰個會議? 5 柯煒姸女士:係,其實我哋民政處一般喺出席呢一啲會議嘅時候,其實都會因應我哋收集到 6 嘅居民嘅意見,又或者現場嘅情況其實即時會提供一啲嘅建議嘅。好似呢一個9 月 7 6 號會議之前,其實我哋收到有好多業主就向我哋即係表示擔憂,因為嗰個業主會 8 議時間其實係晚上7 點鐘,咁佢哋都有向我哋表示擔心個會議太早,即係可能啲業 9 主未趕得切放工返嚟參加個會議,亦都有向我哋表達嗰個業--即係可能會有好多業 10 主想親身出席呢一個嘅會議。 11 所以其實我哋知道居民同埋業主嘅呢一啲嘅憂慮嘅時候,其實我哋喺現場嘅情 12 況會按照現場嘅判斷去做一啲嘅建議嘅。好似喺9 月6 號呢一個會議咁,其實我哋 13 晚上7 點嘅時候,其實我本人有主動落去留意一下嗰個業主嗰個登記入場嘅情況, 14 咁我留意到當時都仲有一條即係為數不少嘅隊伍喺度等候緊入場。所以其實我哋民 15 政處當時係有主動建議法團延後個會議時間,就等可以嗰啲隊伍都可以消化埋,入 16 埋場先至進行一個嘅會議。 17 咁同埋其實因為每一個會議、每一個法團,佢哋嘅運作模式或者嗰個現場嘅情 18 況都唔一樣,咁我哋其實要視乎當時嘅情況去做,即係我哋會去留意一啲位置,譬 19 如好似呢一個9 月6 號嗰個會議,因為好似我話齋,其實呢一個會議出席嘅人數係 20 比較多嘅,咁當時佢出席會議嘅人數多到係淨係個禮堂係冇辦法容納嘅,咁而下面 21 2 樓嗰個雨天操場其實都係作為一個第二嘅會場去進行一個會議。 22 咁其實喺法團舉行呢一個會議之前,我哋都已經留意到有呢一個可能性,所以 23 我哋其實都有同法團建議可能要做一啲嘅現場直播,即係等當嗰個會議場地唔夠容 24 納嘅時候,都可以去到雨天操場嗰度繼續,咁而譬如好似去到進行議程嘅時候,咁 25 我哋都知道好多時可能喺收集,即係入票落去個票箱嘅時候,選票入票箱嘅時候, 26 可能都有一啲爭端,所以其實我哋民政處,即係我本人主動都有跟住個票箱落去雨 27 天早場嗰邊,等現場--即係視乎現場嘅情況,喺適時我哋覺得有需要嘅時候可以同 28 法團提出一個意見,又或者當場業主可以搵到我哋民政處做一啲查詢或者協助咁 29 樣。 30 孫靖乾資深大律師:好,明白。因為頭先講到呢個9 月6 號嗰個會議,其實頭先杜大律師都 31 有問到你,就係兩個時段都有一啲多--即係不少於百分之五嘅業主就要求鄧國權先 32 生就係去開會。咁一啲就比較早,就2024 年即係我見到2 月、3 月份嘅時候,首 33 先講嗰個,你記唔記得當時2 月、3 月後,你哋畀咗啲勸喻畀鄧主席之後,咁其實 34 嗰個會議最屘嗰個要求去開個會議,有冇繼續進行,或者有冇繼--即係係咪繼續係 35 有個咁嘅要求,你記唔記得? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第二十天

65 本謄本由Epiq 編製 柯煒姸女士:其實當時我哋處理呢一個過程,我知道佢哋其中一個--當時嗰個處理最後係嗰 1 個5%嘅召集人,佢撤銷咗呢一個召開會議嘅要求。 2 孫靖乾資深大律師:係,即係嗰個年頭嗰個就撤銷咗? 3 柯煒姸女士:係,佢哋自己撤銷咗。 4 孫靖乾資深大律師:咁係--明白。到後來就去到9 月份嗰個會,咁就之前亦都係同樣地係有 5 不少於5%嘅業主佢哋要求。咁你頭先就--杜大律師問你就係,譬如係畀你睇,或 6 者你可以睇其中一個例子,係G1-1 嘅1319 頁,咁呢個就係你發出畀呢個鄧國權 7 先生嘅一封信,咁1319 頁,如果我哋去睇一睇,可能去到下一頁1320 頁嘅時 8 候,咁我哋見到呢一封信就喺2024 年嘅7 月份你發出,然之後上面就係亦都有講 9 到,就係--冇錯,而家呢段我哋可能喺1319 嘅尾嗰度就話「喺本處與你於21 同 10 埋25 號嘅面談,表示係仍係對該聯署業主嘅身分係物色一個合適場地舉行業主大 11 會」,即係呢個就係你頭先講到話,其實9 月份嗰個會議就係好多人出席嘅,所以 12 就喺嗰個物色嗰個適合嘅場地嗰度係用咗啲時間? 13 柯煒姸女士:係。 14 孫靖乾資深大律師:咁頭先你講到話,需要一啲現場直播嘅一啲嘅設備,嗰度有冇一啲即係 15 關係?即係如果佢係--即係據你所記得,即係佢需要用多啲時間去開嗰個會議? 16 柯煒姸女士:根據我當時同當時嘅法團主席嘅了解,其實因為本身佢哋法團管委會係冇呢一 17 啲嘅設備嘅,所以佢哋要為咗呢一個會議特--要去做一啲嘅採購嘅工序,咁去即係 18 聘請一啲嘅服務,當時做呢一個嘅直播同埋--係,做一個直播同埋收音相關嘅採購 19 服務。 20 孫靖乾資深大律師:明白。咁我純粹想同你確定番,就係如果你睇一睇1044 頁。1044 21 頁,如果我哋睇番最上面嗰度,我哋應該可以睇得到,其實呢個會議當時出席嗰個 22 業主嗰個人數係講緊--即係可能包括埋授權票係有1243 個人,即係其實都係好-- 23 比起以往嘅會議,我記得頭先講緊2024 年1 月就係五百幾,呢個其實係兩倍以上 24 嘅。 25 柯煒姸女士:係。 26 孫靖乾資深大律師:咁同埋就睇到呢度有講個場地,就係你頭先講緊嘅禮堂就係一個第一個 27 會議嘅場所,就可以容納六百個人,然之後第二會議嘅場所就係個雨天操場,就會 28 有一個電視直播嘅設備,就可以容納四百個人,呢個就係你頭先所講嗰個情況? 29 柯煒姸女士:係。 30 孫靖乾資深大律師:咁頭先另外講到話你話有一個係較早啲,即係2024 年嗰個係撤銷咗嗰 31 個要求開會個申請嘅,咁嗰個就應該你可以睇埋1222 頁,即係呢個應該就係你頭 32 先講嗰個撤銷申請嘅嗰個... 33 柯煒姸女士:聯絡報告。 34 孫靖乾資深大律師:嘅文件? 35 柯煒姸女士:係。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第二十天

66 本謄本由Epiq 編製 孫靖乾資深大律師:係,好。最後我想你睇一睇,就你頭先講過話一啲授權票嘅時候,就其 1 實都係由嗰個主席去處理嗰個授權票,嗰個我想你睇番嗰個都係BMO,即係話嗰個 2 《建築物管理條例》嘅附表3 嘅,就麻煩你去一去睇呢個G1-1 嘅第152 頁。 3 咁我哋呢度睇到,其實就係喺附表3 嘅第4 條就講到關於一個嘅業主立案法團 4 佢哋開會時候,咁就係業主可以係自己親身去投票,又或者係可以係透過一啲嘅授 5 權票。然後如果我哋去睇一睇,就係譬如第2 條就有一個要求,佢哋係要某一個格 6 式,第三就係話要喺最少四十八小時前就係要去交嗰個授權票。 7 然之後我哋再睇一睇下一頁,153 頁。咁你就會可以睇得到,就係其實如果係 8 喺第(5)嗰度,就講過如果一啲嘅授權票係即係收到嘅時候,(b)嗰個條款就有 9 講過就話其實嗰個嘅業主立案法團或者管委會嘅主席,又或者係即係如果佢唔在場 10 嘅時候就係主理嗰個會議嘅人士,就應該係決定嗰個授權票,即係嗰個(English 11 Spoken)嘅嗰個有效性。我想問你頭先講到話其實決定嗰個授權票嘅有效性,其 12 實都係由嗰個嘅主席去決定,嗰個依據係咪其實就係你而家我哋睇到嗰個附表3 裏 13 面嘅條款? 14 柯煒姸女士:冇錯,根據《建築物管理條例》。 15 孫靖乾資深大律師:好,唔該晒,柯小姐,我冇其他問題。 16 陸啟康法官:冇覆問,唔該晒你,柯小姐,你作供完畢㗎嘞,唔該。 17

18 15 時59 分民政事務總署大埔民政事務處聯絡主任(5A)證人柯煒姸女士作供完畢 19

20 杜淦堃資深大律師:主席,今日最後一位證人係陳巧敏女士。 21 係,陳女士,你好,麻煩你都企喺起將你面前個聲明讀一讀出嚟。 22

23 16 時00 分時任民政事務總署大埔民政事務專員證人陳巧敏女士開始作供 24

25 陳巧敏女士:本人陳巧敏聲明本人所作的證供盡本人所知、所悉及所信,均屬真實。 26 杜淦堃資深大律師:請坐。就今次我哋呢個聽證會你做咗一份證人陳述書,喺WS1/501 27 頁,相信你睇過裏面內容同埋可以確定,係咪? 28 陳巧敏女士:可以確定。 29 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋知道你係大埔民政專員,你係個任期由幾時到幾時? 30 陳巧敏女士:我由2018 年開始喺大埔民政處做大埔專員,就直至2026 年1 月。 31 杜淦堃資深大律師:我想了解一下就你呢個身分,其實你喺區裏面法團事務你有咩嘢角色嘅 32 呢?或者會做啲咩嘢嘅呢? 33 陳巧敏女士:明白。因為大廈管理係民政處嘅工作之一,所以作為民政專員,我哋成個民政 34 事務處都會為區裏面嘅居民,如果佢哋有關大廈管理嘅事務,無論係佢哋有查詢或 35 者投訴,我哋會處理。另外,就係如果佢哋本身係有業主立案法團的話,如果係佢 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第二十天

67 本謄本由Epiq 編製 哋需要召開譬如業主會議或者係相關嘅程序,咁我哋會提供協助。如果喺區裏面, 1 如果係有啲未有業主組織嘅大廈或者係啲屋苑,咁希望成立業主立案法團,咁我哋 2 都會協助。 3 杜淦堃資深大律師:就你本身,我哋知道你都有處理過或者你嘅下屬喺你指示底下都處理過 4 一啲有關宏福苑嘅投訴,就做緊大維修嘅屋苑其實要處理嘅事情比較多,都係常見 5 嘅,係咪? 6 陳巧敏女士:係常見嘅。 7 杜淦堃資深大律師:相關嘅投訴亦都好多時都有嘅? 8 陳巧敏女士:係。 9 杜淦堃資深大律師:我見到你嘅紀錄提到你哋就一共收到四十四宗關於宏福苑維修或者其他 10 問題嘅投訴,你喺證人供詞裏面有一個列表,就係WS1/526,我見到你都列咗出嚟 11 嘅? 12 陳巧敏女士:係。 13 杜淦堃資深大律師:喺你大埔民政事務處服務嘅時候,呢個屋苑嘅投訴算唔算特別多? 14 陳巧敏女士:喺我接觸即係單一屋苑要處理嘅投訴佢嘅數量算係多嘅。 15 杜淦堃資深大律師:好,我都想問一問你,就係譬如開業主大會嘅時候,你哋個角色,有時 16 你都會被邀請去出席呢啲業主大會嘅,係咪? 17 陳巧敏女士:佢哋會邀請民政處派代表。 18 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係你通常你都唔會出席嘅,係咪? 19 陳巧敏女士:會由我哋嘅聯絡主任同事出席。 20 杜淦堃資深大律師:係頭先嘅柯小姐就係處理宏福苑嘅同事? 21 陳巧敏女士:冇錯。 22 杜淦堃資深大律師:我見到你喺證人供詞第7 段嗰度你都解釋咗你哋嘅角色嘅,或者呢一方 23 面你都可以講一講畀大家聽你哋嘅立場,好讓大家知道你嘅供詞係乜嘢? 24 陳巧敏女士:好,好似頭先咁講,因為大廈管理係民政處嘅工作之一,所以我哋係會為居民 25 提供就住大廈管理相關嘅協助,如果係好似宏福苑呢一種佢本身已經有業主立案法 26 團,而且亦都係係有一個有規模嘅持牌物業管理公司去幫佢營運嘅話,咁喺呢方面 27 我哋通常喺物業管理或者係大廈管理方面嘅協助,好多時首先就係佢哋嘅業主大 28 會,咁我哋都會派同事去參與、去出席。 29 另外,就係譬如如果有喺佢哋安排業主大會或者相關嘅過程裏面佢哋需要協 30 助,譬如頭先都有提到,咁有多我哋會收到就係如果有多過5%嘅業主佢哋聯署希望 31 召開一啲特別嘅業主大會,如果其中我哋觀察到係有同《建築物條例》有嘅規定裏 32 面係未完全符合,我哋都會提供協助。 33 另外,就如果有相關嘅投訴或者查詢,咁嚟到民政署我哋都會處理嘅。 34 杜淦堃資深大律師:你有提過,你嘅證人供詞裏面就一個保持中立嘅問題,好多時業主法團 35 裏面都有啲爭議嘅,對於居民之間嘅爭議相信你都會同意,你亦都解釋過,你哋作 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第二十天

68 本謄本由Epiq 編製 為民政事務處,你哋就保持中立,其實應該就唔會就某方面嘅立場去可能進行啲遊 1 說或者幫人攞票,呢啲唔會係你哋嘅工作? 2 陳巧敏女士:呢啲唔係我哋嘅工作嚟嘅。因為即係大廈管理其實係各個業主佢哋嘅權利,亦 3 都係佢哋嘅義務,至於佢哋即係點樣樣去做選擇,包括係如果佢哋做大維修,如果 4 係佢哋揀嗰個即係幫佢哋做承辦個承辦商或者佢哋個工程嘅內容,咁呢個係業主佢 5 哋嘅決定,咁呢個我哋作為民政處,我哋必須要尊重業主佢哋嘅選擇同埋決定。但 6 係如果相關嘅程序或者安排係同《建築物條例》有抵觸嘅,咁呢個我哋係會就指出 7 同埋提供幫助。 8 杜淦堃資深大律師:我都想你幫一幫我哋,你有另外一個身分嘅,因為你除咗係大埔嘅民政 9 專員之外,你都係兼任個區議會主席嘅,係咪? 10 陳巧敏女士:係。 11 杜淦堃資深大律師:喺2024 年1 月開始應該,係咪? 12 陳巧敏女士:係。 13 杜淦堃資深大律師:直至到你離任都係扮演呢個角色嘅? 14 陳巧敏女士:冇錯。 15 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋知道《區議會條例》裏面講咗區議員嘅職責,譬如喺4A 條,佢哋 16 應該就一啲民生、居住該區福𧘲嘅事務,接受政府諮詢,聽聽民意,同埋向你哋遞 17 交,即係反映有關人士嘅意見,係咪? 18 杜淦堃資深大律師:亦都協助地區人士嘅利益相關嘅服務,呢啲係條例底下似乎佢哋嘅職責 19 嚟嘅。如果係咁,我相信你都會同意,其實基本上該區區議員嘅責任其實係服務晒 20 整個社區嘅居民,就宏福苑而言,佢哋會服務裏面所有嘅居民。 21 陳巧敏女士:同意。 22 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋宏福苑呢件事件裏面你都知道,其實就前換法團、開會,對於區議 23 員個角色都有啲爭議,我就係想問一問你,就係我哋見到譬如呢一個例子裏面,舊 24 管委會同埋新管委會開會嘅時候都有大埔區區議員列席嘅,呢個都係常見嘅我相 25 信,係咪? 26 陳巧敏女士:係。 27 杜淦堃資深大律師:佢哋開會有冇扮演啲咩嘢特別嘅角色?據你所知。 28 陳巧敏女士:好似頭先杜大狀講,區議員嘅工作其實係包括各方面嘅地區事務,而區裏面如 29 果係有大廈做緊大維修,咁住喺裏面嘅居民一定會非常之關注個大維修嘅進度情 30 況,所以正如我理解,好多知法團佢哋都會邀請番即係相關嘅區議員出席個會議, 31 讓區議員都可以了解多啲,或者係有第一身嘅資料去知道究而家嗰個法團同埋即係 32 相關嘅維修工程嗰個進度,咁佢哋如果係接到即係相關居民如果有查詢或者各方面 33 事情安排,佢哋都可以即係有第一身嘅信息,亦都可以協助跟進。 34 而且區議員其實同即係法團個管委會其實都係有一個好緊密嘅聯繫,就係好多 35 時喺法團裏面,就算佢唔係做大維修,其實喺番即係地區事務嗰度,其實都會同區 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第二十天

69 本謄本由Epiq 編製 議員有好多嘅接觸,所以即係區議員去親身了解番大廈管理嗰個即係進度或者重大 1 嘅事情,咁呢個其實係區議員工作嘅一個部分添。 2 杜淦堃資深大律師:有一個觀點我想睇下你同唔同意?就係其實區議員履行佢哋嘅職責同你 3 哋民政事務署處一樣,其實佢哋都應該保持中立,因為佢係為整體啲居民去服務, 4 係咪? 5 陳巧敏女士:區議員我哋理解,即係好似頭先咁講,即係促進一個良好嘅大廈管理,其實係 6 區議員嘅工作之一,而且即係區議員喺地區服務都相當長嘅一段時間,佢一定係對 7 即係個地區嘅網路、個人脈,佢哋即係個地區區情即係有佢哋嘅掌握。佢哋好多時 8 可能喺啲大廈管理嘅事務上面可能(English Spoken)包括係有乜嘢人選係會 9 比較適合去參與個大廈管理或者管委會嘅唔同崗位等等,佢哋可能係會有即係個人 10 嘅意見或者建議,咁喺呢一方面我哋對於區議員喺呢方面嘅工作,咁我哋係尊重 11 嘅。 12 杜淦堃資深大律師:我諗我哋唔可以距離我哋--或者我哋咁講,我哋唔可以同我哋今次委員 13 會處理問題嘅焦點走得太遠,我哋走番返嚟。其實我哋係要處理喺我哋範疇裏面, 14 有譬如大廈喺呢啲開會投標嘅事情係唔係穩妥,亦都有一啲圍標嘅指控,所以對於 15 呢啲開會有爭議嘅時候,可能居民都會就呢啲問題有意見同比較敏感。所以喺呢一 16 個大前提底下,我都想問下你,有證據顯示有區議員係獲取咗若干數量嘅授權票, 17 而且係唔少嘅,對於呢一個做法,你覺得同佢哋嘅職責有冇扺觸呢? 18 陳巧敏女士:喺授權票方面,其實授權票呢個工具我哋理解喺《建築物條例》之下係容許 19 嘅,某程度上其實呢個亦都係業主佢去參與個大廈管理事務嘅一個方式,因為最好 20 當然我哋係鼓勵業主係可以親身去參與無論係業主大會,或者各個同大廈管理或者 21 係大維修有關嘅決定,如果佢可以親身參與,呢個當然係最好最好個選擇。但係如 22 果有部分業主佢係未必能夠親身出席所有嘅業主大會,咁授權票其實係其中一種工 23 具,佢都可以參與,因為授權票其實係業主佢去反映佢嘅個人選擇同埋意願嘅一個 24 工具嚟嘅,咁佢必須要選擇一個佢可以信任嘅人,授權畀佢去幫佢喺個會議上面做 25 業主希望做嘅決定。所以授權票本身喺《建築物條例》之下係一個容許嘅工具嚟 26 嘅。而我相信杜大狀嗰個重點應該係究竟係唔係用一個正確嘅方法或者係一個法律 27 容許嘅方法嚟獲取授權票。 28 如果頭先講到,如果我哋係講即係有啲傳聞話部分人士係用一個欺詐嘅手段去 29 攞授權票,咁呢個係一個非常嚴重嘅指控嚟嘅,如果民政處係有具體嘅投訴或者有 30 業主係嚟民政處同我哋講佢被授權,或者係有即係因為欺詐成份而被騙取授權嘅 31 話,咁呢一個我哋必定會轉交畀執法部門去做跟進,因為呢個係一個好嚴重嘅指 32 控,係需要即係執法部門去作出跟進。 33 杜淦堃資深大律師:或者可能係我問方法嘅問題,或者試下咁樣問你。我相信你喺回答我之 34 前嗰個問題嘅時候,你都會同意區議員其實都要有一個中立嘅角色,可能喺有啲居 35 民之間嘅糾紛裏面,佢都唔應該去偏幫某一面,我相信你會同意嘅,係咪? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第二十天

70 本謄本由Epiq 編製 陳巧敏女士:區議員嘅... 1 陸啟康法官:其實呢個係政治問題,抑或係... 2 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔係,唔係,呢個係關於我哋之前提過《區議會條例》4A 相關嘅問題。 3 陸啟康法官:Okay。 4 杜淦堃資深大律師:政治問題我諗我哋處理唔到。 5 陳巧敏女士:係,我諗即係頭先--我再講一講,就係即係區議員如果即係透過佢喺地區上面 6 掌握地區嘅脈絡個區情,佢如果係對有一啲大廈管理嘅做法或者係一啲安排,佢係 7 會有一啲睇法或者有一啲個人意見嘅,咁而呢一個佢嘅建議係喺個法律框架下面或 8 者喺現行法例之下係容許嘅話,咁呢一啲嘅安排我哋係即係尊重佢作為區議員嘅工 9 作之一。 10 杜淦堃資深大律師:如果個事實只係有一個區議員譬如佢攞咗大量嘅授權票本身,你哋會唔 11 會主動去調查呢件事,或者如果冇其他嘅指控,你哋會點處理呢? 12 陳巧敏女士:我聽到呢個係一個假設性嘅問題,即係話假設... 13 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢個係,冇錯。 14 陳巧敏女士:...我哋知道有一位人士或者一位區議員佢係有好多授權票,意思就即係話有 15 好多居民都授權佢... 16 杜淦堃資深大律師:我哋就當佢係假設性嘅問題咁去回答咗先。 17 陳巧敏女士:係,即係話有好多居民都授權同一位... 18 杜淦堃資深大律師:講區議員。 19 杜淦堃資深大律師:...人士或者同一位區議員代表佢去參與呢個會議,首先就係頭先我提 20 到,如果呢一個獲取授權或者相關嘅業主去給予授權佢嗰個方法係符合條例嘅話, 21 咁喺即係之前,喺當時嘅法例裏面其實呢個係冇抵觸嘅情況。不過,我哋知道喺即 22 係而家各方同總署就住《建築物條例》都做緊呢啲檢討嘅,咁其中亦都有包括就係 23 究竟即係合唔合適就係有太集中嘅授權票,即係話究竟一個人應唔應該有一個上 24 限,即係去攞授權票嘅上限,或者喺一個會議裏面究竟係唔係應該為有--即係個授 25 權票嘅安排係唔係即係應該有一啲檢討,咁我知道呢一樣嘢係進行緊嘅。 26 杜淦堃資深大律師:或者咁樣講啱唔啱呢?如果我冇理解錯,頭先我哋提到如果有啲指控真 27 係有證據講話某位人士用一啲不當嘅手段去獲取授權票,你哋有相關嘅資料,你哋 28 係會徹查嘅? 29 陳巧敏女士:因為我哋係大埔民政處,因為民政處就我哋會受獲授權範圍所限嘅,但係如果 30 我哋頭先提到係一啲不法嘅手段去獲取授權嘅話,咁呢個資料嚟到我哋度,我哋一 31 定會搵相關嘅部門跟進,咁我哋理解如果係講緊用不法嘅手段去獲取授權,呢個應 32 該我哋轉介畀警務處嘅跟進應該係合適嘅。 33 杜淦堃資深大律師:但係如果就單單譬如某一位人士,當時法律底下,你嘅意思就係冇限制 34 佢可以攞幾多授權票出席,所以就授權票多少本身似乎個解釋就係因為呢個唔牽涉 35 一個違法嘅行為,咁呢個就唔構成一個你哋調查嘅目標,可唔可以咁講? 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第二十天

71 本謄本由Epiq 編製 陳巧敏女士:可以咁講,但我都想補充一點,就係如果就住區議員方面,其實區議員係有一 1 個好嚴謹嘅利益申報嘅機制,如果即係區議員喺佢嘅工作上面係有任何嘅利益衝 2 突,佢必須要透過呢個利益申報嘅機制係要作出申報。 3 杜淦堃資深大律師:唔該晒你。 4 主席,我冇其他問題。 5 陸啟康法官:各個涉事方有冇提問?如果冇,孫大律師。 6 孫靖乾資深大律師:我哋都冇提問。 7 陸啟康法官:冇覆問? 8 杜淦堃資深大律師:冇覆問。 9 陸啟康法官:Okay。陳女士,你作供完畢,唔該晒你。 10 陳巧敏女士:唔該。 11

12 16 時18 分時任民政事務總署大埔民政事務專員證人陳巧敏女士作供完畢 13

14 陸啟康法官:今日就完咗我哋今日嘅四位證人, 15 杜淦堃資深大律師:主席,我哋早咗十分鐘完。 16 陸啟康法官:咁我哋星期四,我哋係? 17 杜淦堃資深大律師:10 點。 18 陸啟康法官:我哋星期四10 點鐘繼續。 19

20 16 時18 分聆訊押後 21 (聆訊將於2026 年4 月30 日10 時00 分繼續) 22

FD06260 | 2025_港澳台_香港宏福苑大火_Transcript-(Chinese)_20260715.pdf

分类:06_境外及港澳台调查报告 | 年份:2025 | 地域:香港 | 严重程度: | 场所: | 起火原因: | 来源格式:pdf

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第二十八天

本謄本由 Epiq 編製,於聽證會中使用的部分英文詞句由獨立委員會秘書處補充。 就大埔宏福苑火災成立的獨立委員會

聽證會

高等法院原訟法庭陸啟康法官 陳健波議員 歐陽伯權博士

日期:

第二十八天 2026 年7 月15 日

杜淦堃資深大律師、俞匡庭大律師、李澍桓大律師、馮天榮大律師、張天 風大律師及李俊軒大律師代表獨立委員會

卓元暢資深大律師、孫靖乾資深大律師、陸栩然大律師及劉逸冲大律師代 表政府

呂世杰資深大律師及阮文躍大律師代表市區重建局

律政司代表

競爭事務委員會代表

李峰琦大律師代表宏褔苑居民

何卓衡大律師及楊志聰大律師代表置邦興業有限公司

柯愷欣大律師代表宏福苑業主立案法團第十二屆管理委員會

關有禮大律師及陳熾龍大律師代表梁秉基

宏泰消防工程有限公司代表

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第二十八天

1 本謄本由 Epiq 編製,於聽證會中使用的部分英文詞句由獨立委員會秘書處補充。

以下內容乃聽證會數碼錄音謄本 1

2 上午10 時00 分聽證會恢復 3

4 陸啟康法官:各位,今日起一連三日呢,獨立委員會係會聽取各方嘅口述總結陳詞,喺開始 5 陳詞之前我先係簡介一下相關嘅安排。根據呢個聽證會程序規則嘅第23 條,獨立 6 委員會嘅大律師同埋各個涉事方嘅大律師係可以向獨立委員會提交書面嘅總結陳 7 詞,以及係作出口述嘅總結陳詞。除咗獨立委員會大律師嘅書面總結陳詞之外,我 8 哋喺較早時候已經係收到8 個嘅涉事方提交嘅書面總結陳詞,包括係政府、競委 9 會、市建局、9 位宏福苑嘅居民,即係李國鴻先生、羅曉琪女士、羅曉健先生、葉 10 家駒先生、葉信霆先生、葉信賢先生、蘇曉峯先生、鍾小碧女士以及係江祥發先 11 生。 12 另外,我哋亦都收到宏福苑業主立案法團第12 屆管理委員會,亦即係聽證會 13 期間稱嘅「新管委會」,另外,我哋亦都係收到置邦興業有限公司、宏泰消防工程 14 有限公司以及係中華發展工程有限公司董事梁秉基先生嘅書面陳詞。當中,宏泰消 15 防工程同埋宏福苑新管委會已經係表示佢哋只係提交書面嘅總結陳詞,並唔會喺聽 16 證會入面作出口述嘅陳詞。至於口述陳詞嘅先後次序,今日我哋上晝係會首先聽取 17 置邦興業有限公司大律師嘅陳詞。其後依次將會係梁秉基先生、市建局、競委會、9 18 位宏福苑嘅居民、政府、同埋獨立委員會嘅大律師。 19 鑒於我哋要相就各個代表大律師嘅日程嘅安排,我哋預計今日我哋聽證會就會 20 喺1 點鐘之前完結,因為我哋要就佢哋個日程,我哋會喺聽日10 點鐘先會繼續聽 21 取總結陳詞嘅。或者預計一下,我哋而家收到嘅陳詞,政府代表嘅陳詞係有接近 22 400 頁,我哋嘅委員會大律師嘅陳詞係600 幾頁,為咗方便大家去理解總結陳詞嘅 23 內容,我亦都唔相信佢哋係會喺呢個聽證會入面逐段讀出嚟,所以為咗方便各位, 24 各個涉事方嘅書面陳詞將會喺當日作出口述陳詞之前,即係喺早上9 點30 分就會 25 上載到委員會嘅網站,咁明日同埋後日亦都會採用同樣嘅安排,而宏泰消防工程同 26 埋宏福苑新管委會嘅書面陳詞已經喺今日早上係已經上載咗。喺未來三日,獨立委 27 員會同埋各個涉事方嘅代表大律師就會就佢哋針對大火同埋相關嘅事宜,或者係不 28 同持份者喺當中嘅角色係作出總結,亦可能會提出一啲嘅改善建議。 29 我想喺度強調,就未來數日聽到嘅立場、分析同埋建議,獨立委員會都會喺完 30 成聽證會之後,連同之前聽證會聽到嘅證供以及其他收到嘅書面資料作獨立同埋整 31 體嘅考慮。委員會最終就職權範圍下嘅事宜作出嘅研判、結論同埋改善建議,會喺 32 呢個委員會之後向行政長官提交嘅報告入面係詳細交代。有關建議方面,我哋需要 33 顧及不同嘅考量,包括資源配套、具體嘅操作細節、市民嘅承受能力,各個持份者 34

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第二十八天

2 本謄本由 Epiq 編製,於聽證會中使用的部分英文詞句由獨立委員會秘書處補充。 嘅角色同埋市場嘅情況等。因此我哋預期獨立委員會最終就職權範圍嘅事宜所作出 1 嘅改善建議總體嚟講係應該較為方向性嘅。咁如果冇其他事項呢,我哋現在就會邀 2 請置邦興業有限公司代表大律師開始作出口述嘅總結陳詞。 3

4 上午10 時05 分何卓衡大律師代表置邦興業有限公司開始結案陳詞 5

6 何卓衡大律師:主席、兩位委員,正如我哋喺聽證會嘅開場陳詞所講,置邦對於呢場嘅火災 7 悲劇表示極度悲痛。置邦係完全明白今次獨立調查嘅重要性同埋其涉及嘅巨大公眾 8 利益,我哋亦都感謝委員會同埋佢哋律師團隊嘅努力,去嘗試還原事件嘅真相。另 9 外,置邦亦都感激宏福苑多名嘅居民同埋受害者家屬,就聽證會所提供證據同埋資 10 料,令到委員會同各個涉事方可以更全面咁了解火災嘅始末。置邦喺呢場聽證會一 11 直以虛心嘅心態聆聽各方嘅證供,包括咗專家證供同埋佢哋具有建設性嘅建議,置 12 邦係希望透過今次嘅調查思考是否就某些方面有任何嘅改善空間,同埋避免同類悲 13 劇再次發生。置邦亦都留意到,政府係有宣佈會對《消防條例》同埋相關嘅附屬法 14 例作出修例嘅建議,包括加強對註冊消防裝置承辦商嘅規管,我哋係歡迎所有有效 15 而且可行嘅方法去減低同類悲劇再次發生嘅風險。我哋喺我哋嘅書面總結陳詞就著 16 牽涉物管公司嘅議題作出咗相關嘅觀察,我哋希望透過今次嘅口頭結案陳詞闡述五 17 個議題:第一,置邦作為物管公司喺宏福苑大維修嘅角色;第二,喺呢次事件上關 18 於宏福苑唔同承辦商處理消防裝置嘅協調問題;第三,關於置邦喺業主大會可以做 19 到嘅角色;第四,我哋提到可以改善嘅方向同埋措施;同埋第五,置邦員工就住今 20 次大火嘅應對。 21 第一個要帶出嘅議題係置邦喺宏福苑嘅角色係物業管理公司,我哋想特別指出 22 嘅係,置邦喺大維修係冇被委任為任何顧問或者監督嘅角色,如果我哋可以睇番屋 23 苑管理合約,即係文件夾H1-1,由第1 頁開始,如果我哋去第3 頁,你會見到 24 2.1 條嗰度呢,置邦每月嘅經理人酬金為港幣24,210 元,加一個行政費用 25 13,400 元,呢個係當然撇除開支同埋員工開支。要特別指出嘅係置邦係冇就大維 26 修收取任何額外嘅費用,置邦亦都冇根據呢份合約嘅2.2 條被法庭委任為大維修工 27 程監督或者顧問,亦都冇就此收取任何相關嘅費用。 28 我哋懇請委員會從實際角度考慮置邦喺合同下嘅角色,以及喺呢個角色之下就 29 某啲問題所面對嘅實際限制。其中一個相關嘅現實限制係置邦處理一啲居民關於大 30 維修嘅投訴時可以作出嘅跟進行動。我哋喺我哋嘅書面結案陳詞第28 段講述咗置 31 邦唔同層級嘅職員都有盡佢哋嘅能力將居民嘅投訴,包括咗工人吸煙嘅投訴反映咗 32 畀宏業同鴻毅聽。亦有喺屋苑範圍放置「不可吸煙」嘅告示。我哋亦都聽到前線員 33 工,例如高級管理員黃百盛先生係會阻止工人食煙,而佢見到工人食煙嘅時候係會 34 大叫制止佢哋嘅。呢個係黃先生嘅供詞第10 段,我畀埋個reference 係 35 WS2/1239 頁。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第二十八天

3 本謄本由 Epiq 編製,於聽證會中使用的部分英文詞句由獨立委員會秘書處補充。 但係切實面對置邦嘅困難,係置邦冇任何合同或者法律嘅權力去執行嗰啲嘅規 1 定。正如我哋喺書面陳詞第29.1 段所講,喺相關嘅大維修合同係將大維修監督嘅 2 權力賦予咗畀宏業同鴻毅。置邦嘅物業主任鄭芷盈小姐亦都喺佢口頭作供時提過, 3 置邦係控制唔到宏業嗰啲工人嘅。因為置邦冇係權去炒佢,而管理公司只能夠作出 4 勸喻,而冇執法嘅權力。 5 喺呢件事上,吸煙投訴始終係一個執法嘅問題。牽涉嘅議題係點樣迫使工人同 6 埋聘用佢哋嘅承辦商正視同埋杜絕工地吸煙嘅情況。委員會律師喺佢嘅書面結案陳 7 詞第849.4 段提到置邦喺大火發生之前可以主動將有關吸煙嘅投訴轉介到勞工 8 處。我哋係明白委員會律師嘅出發點,但事實上勞工處已經收到9 宗有關嘅投訴, 9 並多次係派佢嘅調查人員去到宏福苑調查,遺憾嘅係每次嘅調查結果都只係投訴不 10 能確立。同樣地,委員會律師喺佢嘅書面結案陳詞第850.4 段提到置邦喺大火發 11 生之前可以主動將有關生口嘅投訴轉介到ICU,但係我哋喺ICU 證人得知佢哋其實 12 係當時有睇過生口嘅相片,當中係包括ICU 嘅高級屋宇保養測量師容兆倫先生,而 13 佢哋都具有評估風險嘅知識同經驗,但係佢哋喺視察之後都冇提到任何火警風險。 14 所以喺呢個議題之上,置邦係歡迎委員會提出能夠改善執法效果嘅建議。 15 第二個議題,我想講嘅係置邦同宏福苑其他承辦商之間嘅協調,特別係關於處 16 理消防裝置方面嘅協調,委員會會記得宏福苑係同時有兩個註冊消防裝置承辦商, 17 第一個就係置邦代表法團委聘Victory Fire,即係宏泰消防作為處理消防裝置 18 年檢嘅承辦商,亦都係處理年檢之後執修嘅承辦商。第二就係大維修其中一部分係 19 要維修消防水缸,特別就住呢個部分,宏業係自己委聘咗(English 20 Spoken),即係中華發展,作為相關嘅註冊消防裝置承辦商。 21 喺今次嘅事件上,其中一個不幸嘅地方係置邦嘅電工羅師傅喺協助宏業將消防 22 水缸嘅水放水嘅時候,係唔知道呢個消防泵總電掣同時控制住消防火警警報系統嘅 23 情況之下係熄咗呢個消防泵總電掣。委員會聽到嘅證據顯示,管理處職員喺宏業要 24 求之下出咗工作單畀工程部嘅員工,要求佢哋協助宏業為消防缸放水。如果我哋可 25 以睇一睇其中一張工作單係H2/6779 頁,係嘞,你會見到手寫嗰度,中間嗰個 26 (English Spoken)寫住「宏道消防缸放水,2025 年7 月14 號上午9 點30 27 分喺宏道地下大堂等宏業職員」。我哋想講嘅係,呢個工作單本身係冇問題嘅,因 28 為工程部其中一個協助嘅工作係幫手開消防泵房嘅門,同埋如果喺放水嘅時候,嗰 29 一刻係有註冊消防裝置承辦商在場,羅師傅佢根據合規格人士嘅指示作出幫忙,例 30 如係提供相關嘅工具,都唔係一個問題,而事實上置邦當時係冇理由懷疑宏業唔會 31 叫埋佢哋委任嘅註冊消防裝置承辦商去現場嘅。 32 好不幸地,喺放水嘅時候係冇任何註冊消防裝置承辦商在場,而宏業委任為有 33 關放水事宜嘅承辦商,中華發展更加係完全係不見影蹤。羅師傅喺冇專業指導嘅情 34 況之下,根據佢以往見到其他註冊消防裝置承辦商處理嘅方式呢,熄咗消防泵電 35 掣,根據羅師傅嘅解釋「唔咁熄嘅話會令到個泵空轉,受到損壞,同埋有火警風 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第二十八天

4 本謄本由 Epiq 編製,於聽證會中使用的部分英文詞句由獨立委員會秘書處補充。 險」。 1 就住火警鐘失效一事,委員會大律師喺佢嘅書面結案陳詞第801 段講到有關置 2 邦嘅情況,喺呢個議題上羅師傅嘅唔小心固然令人遺憾,但係值得注意嘅係,正如 3 我方書面結案陳詞所指,委員會係需要全面咁考慮火警鐘失效有關嘅實際情況,而 4 當中包括咗四個重要嘅問題。問題一,點解大維修消防水缸嘅註冊消防裝置承辦商 5 中華發展係不在現場嘅呢?正如我哋喺書面結案陳詞第18 段中提到,中華發展嘅 6 梁秉基先生承認係完全冇去過宏福苑現場視察。如果當時中華發展代表在場,我哋 7 深信羅師傅嘅意外係唔會發生。 8 問題二,羅師傅最後一次協助宏業放水係8 月嘅事,同大火相距三個月嘅時 9 間,點解中間三個月嘅時間係冇人發現呢個消防電掣係熄咗嘅呢?我哋喺結案陳詞 10 第19 段中提到,最少喺大火前一星期,Victory Fire 嘅職員係有留意到消防 11 電掣係熄咗嘅,佢哋都明白到消防電掣熄咗係代表火警系統失靈,但係佢哋係冇進 12 一步嘅行動,包括自己開番個掣或者係通知中華發展個掣熄咗。 13 委員會會記得喺我哋結案陳詞第22 段中提到,Victory Fire 嘅鍾傑文先 14 生講過,佢認為行業有個心態,「唔係自己嘅嘢就唔好教人做嘢」。呢個心態,我 15 哋嘅陳詞係令人費解嘅,亦都側面印證咗政府打算加強監管註冊消防裝置承辦商嘅 16 做法係正確嘅。 17 喺離開Victory Fire 呢個議題之前,我哋都想帶委員會去睇我哋嘅結案陳 18 詞第20 段,如果我哋可以放出嚟。喺Victory Fire 鍾傑文先生作供期間,鍾 19 先生係嘗試將責任轉移去到置邦身上,包括咗聲稱大火前係有要求置邦嘅物業主任 20 鄭芷盈小姐提供有關消防水缸維修嘅(English Spoken),鄭小姐係明言否認 21 有關嘅說法,亦講出咗重要嘅一點,嗰啲嘅(English Spoken)都係電子存檔 22 嘅,所以如果鍾先生真係有作出呢個要求,又或者係Victory Fire 嘅其他員工 23 真係有作出呢個要求,係可以好快畀到Victory Fire 嘅。更重要嘅係喺聽證會 24 期間,鍾先生根據佢自己嘅電話紀錄聲稱佢喺11 月21 日一個同鄭小姐嘅九秒通 25 話,就係佢要求鄭小姐提供(English Spoken)嘅通話,但係當鄭小姐提供證 26 明,證據去證明嗰個根本係(English Spoken)嘅時候,即係根本上嗰個通話 27 係冇發生嘅時候,鍾先生就搦住佢自己嘅電話紀錄,去推論一個冇電話號碼顯示嘅 28 六秒時間嘅(English Spoken)就係相關嘅請求。喺呢度,我哋必須指出鍾先 29 生相關嘅證據係信口雌黃,同埋完全不可信嘅。最起碼,喺常識角度而言,鍾先生 30 能夠喺六秒時間之內簡介自己同埋提出有關提供(English Spoken)嘅要求, 31 本身係不合常理嘅。 32 問題三,如果最新版本嘅保養守則係有被遵守嘅話,以至總電掣旁邊係有相關 33 嘅警告,我哋深信羅師傅嘅意外係好有可能唔會發生。如果我哋可以睇Bundle 34 2/912 頁,你會見到呢個係保養守則嘅附錄四,(English Spoken),咁喺消 35 防處助理處長姜世明先生作供期間,佢都確認咗如果呢個版本嘅保養守則係適用嘅 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第二十八天

5 本謄本由 Epiq 編製,於聽證會中使用的部分英文詞句由獨立委員會秘書處補充。 話,呢啲規定係適用於年檢嘅,換言之年檢嘅時候,註冊消防裝置承辦商係要根據 1 呢份嘅(English Spoken),呢份嘅清單去睇嗰啲消防裝置嘅。 2 如果我哋去睇919 頁,落少少睇第3.8.2 嗰度,呢度,委員會會見到呢度係 3 有規定,所有嘅電掣旁邊都必須有警示牌警告會影響火警警報系統,如果喺最底嗰 4 度,委員會都會見到條文都有規定警告標示必須嘅大細。喺呢次事件上,如果係有 5 個大大嘅警告牌提醒嗰個刀掣會影響火警警報系統嘅話,我哋深信羅師傅係唔會掂 6 咗嗰個電掣。 7 問題四,根據消防處嘅證供,宏福苑係有七座嘅火警警報系統嘅保險絲係斷咗 8 嘅,呢一個係姜先生嘅第三份證供第6.2 段,同埋我哋可以睇消防處嘅初步報告, 9 我哋如果淨係睇一頁,就係B2/1893 頁開始,呢一個係關於嗰個宏福苑嘅消防裝 10 置嘅報告,如果落啲去睇就係講關於每一座大廈嘅情況同埋佢個保險絲嘅情況,如 11 果我哋去睇第1 頁,最頂嗰度,你會見到喺190 頁最頂嗰度係講關於宏志閣H 座 12 係冇被大火影響嘅,但係佢嘅火警警報系統嘅保險絲依然係斷咗。換言之,喺咁嘅 13 情況之下,刀掣有冇熄,個火警鐘都唔會響。 14 陸啟康法官:但係係咪有證據話有兩座嗰個--我哋有證據話有兩座嗰個嘅火警鐘係響過喎。 15 何卓衡大律師:A 座同C 座係有短暫咁響過嘅,咁但係... 16 陸啟康法官:係,咁如果係真係之前壞咗,咁又點解釋? 17 何卓衡大律師:係,但係所以呢一個係一個需要研究嘅議題,因為我哋會特別見到係H 座縱 18 然係冇被大火影響,佢嗰個保險絲都係斷咗,咁即係話呢個保險絲嘅斷應該就唔關 19 大火事,咁喺咁嘅情況之下,如果保險絲斷咗嘅話,正常嚟講,刀掣有冇熄,就住 20 H 座而言,都似乎個火警鐘係唔會響。咁個問題--個真係個問題就係話,點解會有 21 呢個情況?因為會有令人一個擔心嘅情況,就係話其實刀掣有冇熄都好,其實個火 22 警鐘都係唔會響嘅,即係嗰個邏輯上似乎嗰個情況係咁樣樣嘅。咁我哋當然就會深 23 信呢個應該係消防處之後要研究嘅議題,但係我哋喺6 月嘅聽證會得知,雖然消防 24 處喺佢哋嘅初步報告發現咗呢個問題,佢哋暫時係未有再作相關嘅進一步研究嘅。 25 陸啟康法官:可能要喺之後嘅民事訴訟嗰陣時可能要研究呢啲問題。 26 何卓衡大律師:係,咁當然我哋嗰個說法就係話,就住點樣去改善或者係去防止呢件事進一 27 步發生,喺其他情況之下,因為就住呢一個保險絲喺你冇被大火影響之下都係斷 28 咗,係一個--原則上都係一個令人擔憂嘅問題,所以從委員會嘅角度,呢個都可能 29 係需要委員會去探討嘅問題嚟嘅。咁我哋都希望委員會個報告提出嘅建議,同埋政 30 府提出嘅修例都可以有效咁處理到呢四個問題。 31 第三個我想講嘅議題係講關於置邦喺業主大會可以做到嘅角色,我哋喺我哋嘅 32 書面結案陳詞第33 段講--提到置邦有作出嘅幫手,我哋都留意到委員會大律師喺 33 佢嘅書面結案陳詞第1462 段提到一啲物管公司可能可以採取嘅措施,令到可以確 34 保投票過程更為公平,包括咗一啲可以核實居民身分嘅措施。 35 置邦對於改善投票公平性嘅建議係持歡迎嘅態度嘅,唯一要留意嘅係喺現有法 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第二十八天

6 本謄本由 Epiq 編製,於聽證會中使用的部分英文詞句由獨立委員會秘書處補充。 律框架之下,置邦作為物管公司係冇法定嘅權力,係難以執行嗰啲嘅建議。所以如 1 果能夠引入相--有關《建築物管理條例》嘅修例,賦予物管公司監察投票公正性嘅 2 建議,呢個係會令到物管公司可以更有效地擔當把關者嘅角色,同埋減輕物管公司 3 單靠自願措施嘅局限。 4 第四個我想講嘅議題係剛才提及嘅問題嘅一啲改善建議,我哋喺我哋嘅書面陳 5 詞第G 部分列出咗一啲我哋嘅建議,我係唔打算口頭重複嗰啲內容,我哋會邀請委 6 員會喺撰寫報告時候作出參考。口頭上我想特別提及嘅係關於保養守則適用版本嘅 7 問題,我哋喺我哋嘅書面陳詞第42 段提到呢個問題,正如頭先我講到,最新版本 8 嘅保養守則係有規定消防電掣旁邊係要有警告標示,而如果呢一個標示喺宏福苑存 9 在嘅話,好大可能係唔會發生羅師傅唔小心熄咗火警鐘電掣呢個意外。 10 喺口頭作證期間,消防處姜助理處長係有承認相關嘅標示係會減低唔關消防裝 11 置嘅風險,但係佢嘅證據就話,喺現有制度之下,適用嘅保養守則應該係宏福苑建 12 成年份適用嘅版本,而唔係最新嘅版本。 13 我哋嘅團隊反復研究過之後,對姜助理處長嘅說法係有保留,我哋喺我哋嘅書 14 面陳詞第42 段解釋咗我哋嘅法律分析,我哋係口頭上有三點係想帶委員會去睇 15 嘅,第一點,如果我哋睇番文件冊E2/第180 頁最底部,呢一個係《消防(裝置及 16 設備)規例》第10 條,你會見到11 條就係處長係應該--如果最頂嗰度,第11 17 條,「處長可以藉」--10(1),「處長係可以藉憲報公布,訂明守則,對消防裝 18 置或設備嘅檢查和測試賦予以規管。」而根據條款(3),就係呢啲守則須每年至少 19 憲報刊登一次,呢個係10(3)(a)條款。咁呢度似乎法例嘅規定似乎講緊係最 20 新嘅標準。 21 另一個文件我想睇就係呢一個嘅保養守則,第883 頁,第1.14 條,呢一度似 22 乎佢呢個1.14 條係分兩部分嘅,頂嗰部分係似乎講關於設備守則,下面嗰部分係 23 講關於保養守則,而佢呢一個--呢一頁上面之下其實係有個分野嘅,因為如果你見 24 上面嗰度(i),佢講嗰個設備守則就係講緊係樓宇建成年份所適用嘅設備守則,但 25 係當係講下面保養守則嘅時候係冇咗嗰句嘅,(i)嘅時候佢就咁講呢一個設備-- 26 呢個保養守則,同埋如果你睇(iii)嘅時候,佢講呢個年檢嗰個檢查嗰個清單就 27 係消防處處長不時公布嘅年檢清單。所以似乎根據呢一個保養守則呢一條嘅正確解 28 讀,其實係有個分別嘅,呢個設備守則就係用番樓宇建成年份適用嘅守則嘅版本, 29 保養守則應該係用最新版本。 30 第三個我想帶委員會睇嘅文件係一個FS251 嘅一個字眼,如果我哋用一個例 31 子,就係用R1/657 頁作一個例子,如果你睇番最底部,放大少少去睇,左邊嗰度 32 佢係有一個聲明,呢一個係註冊消防裝置承辦商必須簽署嘅聲明,個聲明講係左 33 邊,係「本人藉此證明以上之消防裝置及設備經試驗,證明性能良好,符合消防處 34 處長不時公布嘅守則」,我哋想特別係指出係「不時公布」呢幾隻字,所以變咗其 35 實睇番嗰啲文件,似乎正確嘅分析應該係保養應該係跟番最新嘅守則。但係姑勿論 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第二十八天

7 本謄本由 Epiq 編製,於聽證會中使用的部分英文詞句由獨立委員會秘書處補充。 正確法律分析係點,消防處嘅立場即係保養同年檢係跟一個四十年前嘅標準,呢個 1 說法我哋係話令人感到詫異嘅。喺最低限度而言,(English Spoken)嘅鍾先 2 生話行業間對適用標準都係唔清晰同埋有混淆,而消防處係冇一份文件明文指明適 3 用標準都係極度唔理想,同埋需要迫切改善嘅地方。 4 最後一個我想提及嘅議題就係置邦員工就住大火嘅應對。我哋喺我哋嘅書面陳 5 詞第(e)部分詳盡解釋咗置邦如何應對大火同埋協助居民疏散,直到最後一刻,呢 6 度都包括咗有作供嘅員工嘅,F 座宏昌閣管理員鍾瑞霞女士,鍾女士係嘗試打響火 7 警鐘同埋跑上樓叫居民離開,佢之後留守喺大堂,直到大火係攻到大堂為止。高級 8 管理員黃百盛先生,黃先生得知大火之後,係由管理處跑咗到去宏昌閣,跑咗六層 9 樓拍門叫人疏散,黃先生係去到6 樓見到濃煙攻陷,先至係落番去大堂。工程主任 10 林文欣先生,林先生一得知大火,即刻跑咗去A 座宏仁閣啟動火警鐘,當發現唔響 11 嘅時候,就嘗試去消防泵房檢查同埋開番個刀掣,林先生係同時跑埋去B 座宏道同 12 埋C 座宏新嘅泵房做同樣嘅動作,而似乎A 座同C 座嘅火警鐘至少有短暫響過。 13 咁當然呢度就去番頭先主席所講個問題,就係消防處嘅證供似乎顯示,火警系 14 統嘅一啲保險絲斷咗,同埋一啲大火冇受影響嘅大廈嘅保險絲都係斷咗嘅,所以有 15 個可能就係話刀掣有冇熄,對個火警鐘有冇響,呢個嗰個關係係點樣樣都係需要進 16 一步研究嘅議題。 17 但係我哋想帶出嘅係,聽證會嘅證據顯示置邦員工都有盡佢哋嘅能力,盡力協 18 助居民疏散。佢哋甚至係置佢哋自身安全於不顧,留守到最後一刻先至離開屋苑範 19 圍,去到隔籬嘅社區會堂繼續協助同埋服務受影響居民。 20 今次嘅大火固然係一個沉痛悲劇,但係亦都反映咗好多人無私嘅付出,當然包 21 括咗最重要嘅前線消防員以及物管公司嘅前線職員,置邦係會虛心接納委員會將會 22 作出嘅建議,同埋盡我哋嘅能力減低同類事故再次發生嘅風險。如果之後有任何跟 23 進研究,包括法例完善嘅討論,置邦都會盡力參與同埋提出適當嘅反饋,感謝委員 24 會。 25

26 上午10 時33 分何卓衡大律師代表置邦興業有限公司結案陳詞完畢 27

28 陸啟康法官:唔該何大律師,跟住想請代表梁秉基先生嘅大律師陳詞,唔該。 29 關有禮大律師:(English Spoken)(「主席,各位委員,各位,主席許可嘅話,我係 30 想用英語發言嘅,因為我係唔能夠咁快轉到台,即係用英文嚟到轉到中文。咁我哋 31 其實都已經係事先知會咗有關律師㗎嘞。」) 32 陸啟康法官:(English Spoken)(「係,你知會咗我哋㗎嘞。我嘗試說服你用中文嚟 33 到去發言,因為有部分嘅參與者,即係唔喺呢個場地,喺其他嘅場地,佢哋係未必 34 有即時傳譯服務嘅。咁所以,如果你用英語發言嘅話,喺中央圖書館嘅聽眾就未必 35 係聽得明你講乜嘢嘅。咁你可唔可以考慮即係用粵語發言得唔得?可唔可以?」) 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第二十八天

8 本謄本由 Epiq 編製,於聽證會中使用的部分英文詞句由獨立委員會秘書處補充。 關有禮大律師:(English Spoken)(「係非常難,非常困難,主席。我好快啫,唔會 1 講好多嘅。」) 2 杜淦堃資深大律師:主席,我哋可唔可以提議如果畀關大律師少少時間,或者可以同我哋調 3 一調啲次序,等佢有啲時間去準備或者可能請其他涉事方就做咗陳詞先,起碼佢有 4 一個鐘頭再去整理一下,用中文整理一下佢嘅陳詞。 5 關有禮大律師:好,我會盡我嘅能力,主席。 6 陸啟康法官:你會嘗試用中文,係咪? 7 關有禮大律師:我會盡我嘅能力用中文。 8 陸啟康法官:好,唔該你。因為我諗即係始終我諗--我明嘅,即係我對於你嚟講,咁我哋好 9 多其實我哋嘅陳詞都係用英文嘅,所以其實我諗你哋--即係我哋始終讀法律係用英 10 文嘅時候,咁可能就用英文表達會快啲。 11 關有禮大律師:係。 12 陸啟康法官:但係即係我諗今次嗰個嘅即個特別嘅情況,如果你可以用中文,我都想請你用 13 中文。 14 關有禮大律師:好。 15 陸啟康法官:如果你同意嘅話,咁我或者請下一位市建局嘅代表佢畀佢嘅陳詞先,好嘛?唔 16 該。呂大律師。 17

18 上午10 時36 分呂世杰資深大律師代表市區重建局開始結案陳詞 19

20 呂世杰資深大律師:主席、委員,我打算喺我嘅口頭總結陳詞嗰度都係扼要咁樣講番嗰啲書 21 面嘅陳詞嘅要點,市建局喺今次為咗協助獨立委員會出席呢個聽證會,全面同埋坦 22 誠咁樣提供相關資料,解釋其法定嘅角色同埋職權。同時市建局用虛心、務實、謙 23 卑嘅態度喺呢場事件之中汲取經驗,務求喺佢哋權限同埋能力嘅範圍之內,加強喺 24 進行大型樓宇復修工程時候可以對業主提供嘅保障。 25 我唔打算重複「招標妥」嗰個背景,但係我都想簡單咁講番「招標妥」到目前 26 為止向市民大眾所提供嘅一啲針對圍標行為嘅一啲工具、一啲服務。市建局喺 27 2016 年5 月10 日推出「招標妥」,包含三項核心服務,第一,自助工具手冊; 28 第二,委派獨立顧問;第三,成立電子招標平台,其核心同埋貫徹始終嘅宗旨,過 29 去同埋現在都係為咗減低業主同埋業主立案法團面對圍標嘅風險。「招標妥」三項 30 核心服務中嘅每一項都係針對當年或者咁多年嚟市建局觀察得到業主喺進行大型維 31 修嘅時候面對嘅問題同埋常見嘅圍標行為,例如合約條款唔公平,工程金額估算缺 32 乏可靠依據,僅有少數嘅承建商能夠得到標書,截標之後,標書嘅失竊、干擾投標 33 者入標、開標紀錄遺失,或者遭到篡改等等。《自助工具》手冊縮窄咗業主同埋服 34 務提供者之間嘅資訊差距,並且提供招標文件嘅標準範本同埋條款,以減低招標文 35 件被操縱嘅可能。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第二十八天

9 本謄本由 Epiq 編製,於聽證會中使用的部分英文詞句由獨立委員會秘書處補充。 獨立顧問,獨立顧問喺關鍵嘅階段,例如評估工程金額會向業主提供獨立嘅第 1 三方專業意見,我哋見到委員會大律師團隊就獨立顧問嗰個角色同埋職能上面嘅一 2 啲建議、一啲觀察,我哋係絕對歡迎嘅。 3 第三,電子招標平台就可以徹底咁杜絕咗選擇性派發招標資訊嘅情況,所有已 4 經登記嘅承建商需要透過平台收取招標邀請,所有有興趣嘅承建商亦都可以得到標 5 書。所有投標必須親身遞交到市建局指定嘅辦事處投標箱。所有投標者喺開標之前 6 亦都要保持匿名,開標過程由專業會計師在場之下進行,並且設有錄影,喺2024 7 年2 月開始更加持有網上直播。 8 另外,市建局喺咁多年推行「招標妥」嘅過程中,見到市場上嘅持份者對於呢 9 個工具其實嘅反映係正面嘅。市建局另外一個重要嘅做咗嘅事,就係採納標準嘅 10 「不合謀條款」同埋「不合謀投標證明書」,所有透過「招標妥」進行嘅投標嘅招 11 標一定要載有不合謀條款,而且投標者一定要簽署同埋提交不合謀投標證明書,呢 12 一項嘅措施嘅採納意義重大。凡係標書載有已經簽署咗嘅不合謀投標證明書,而該 13 證明書因為合謀而變為虛假嘅話,或者任何知情參與合謀嘅人士都可能會就串謀、 14 詐騙而負上刑事責任。 15 當然咁多年嚟,「招標妥」並唔係萬無一失,但係證據顯示有好多犯罪集團都 16 想儘量去避免去用「招標妥」,呢個正正係反映咗「招標妥」係有一定嘅阻嚇作 17 用。呢個亦都係市建局一直就「招標妥」所主張嘅功能,佢唔係能夠杜絶罪案嘅保 18 證,但係一定係對於圍標同埋相關不當行為嘅一道屏障。喺我哋書面陳詞嗰度D 嘅 19 部分講咗,簡單咁闡述咗「招標妥」歷年以嚟嘅變化,我唔打算再重複呢啲細節。 20 喺聽證會較早前透過證人,我哋向委員會同埋大眾解釋咗「招標妥」嘅一啲資 21 源上、制度上嘅局限,我哋聽到一啲社會上嘅聲音或者各位一啲居民、大律師團隊 22 嘅一啲陳述話市建局矮化自身嘅職能,我哋唔完全同意,我哋去向委員會闡述呢啲 23 局限唔係為咗逃避責任,亦都更加唔可能係矮化自身嘅職能,我哋只係想向委員會 24 解釋咁多年嚟我哋市建局遇到嘅困難,從而讓委員會可以喺一個更加客觀嘅事實基 25 礎底下探討、建議點樣去強化市建局嘅角色。稍後我會簡單咁都會提及呢個強化版 26 嘅「招標妥」。 27 喺咁嘅情況底下,我想好簡單講一講我哋曾經透過證據向委員會闡述嘅一啲局 28 限。第一,市建局並唔係執法機構,市建局喺法律框架底下係一個促進者,佢唔係 29 一個負責打擊圍標嘅執法機構,市建局嘅職能係減低圍標嘅風險,令到圍標更加難 30 發生,而唔係百分百取替咗圍標。我再重申,我哋嘅說服唔代表話市建局喺打擊圍 31 標嘅,政府要做嘅嘢係冇一個角色。市建局唔係搜證專家,亦都到冇足夠嘅資源進 32 行調查,「招標妥」嘅目的係減低業主面對圍標嘅風險,減低發生嘅嘅可能性,令 33 到佢更加難發生。 34 第二,係偵測圍標嘅固有困難。樓宇複修業內嘅犯罪活動,貪污、未申報嘅利 35 益衝突、欺詐、圍標往往隱藏喺層層中間人同埋空殼公司嘅背後,內訌同埋糾紛令 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第二十八天

10 本謄本由 Epiq 編製,於聽證會中使用的部分英文詞句由獨立委員會秘書處補充。 到問題更加複雜。非法款項慣常用現金支付,潛在嘅證人尤其涉及三合會嘅時候, 1 常常會因為恐懼報復而唔願意挺身而出去舉報圍標嘅事情。 2 第三,係市建局本身資源嘅局限。市建局喺大規模運作「招標妥」嘅時候,實 3 際可以動用嘅資源,無論人力同埋金錢都係有限。舉幾個例子,「招標妥」電子招 4 標平台每年接收17,000 份招標書,而登記用戶承建商有442 間,要喺當中交叉 5 核對股東同埋董事牽涉浩大嘅工作,市建局並冇資源去進行呢啲咁全面逐一核對嘅 6 系統性調查。事實上,呢啲資料隨時可以被更改,喺資源限制底下,市建局實在難 7 以進行定期嘅調查。委員會喺聽證會之前都聽過一啲證供,市建局唔係完全冇喺佢 8 知情情況之下,或者有懷疑情況之下做過核對,但係佢哋唔能夠做到就係一個系統 9 性嘅調查。呢類嘅困難唔代表市建局無所作為,市建局曾經翻查紀錄,亦都查過是 10 否存在令人關注嘅圍標模式。例如如果某一個顧問取得合約,某一個承建商就會幾 11 乎肯定咁得到其後嘅工程合約,然而資源所限,市建局無法全面咁進行交叉核對所 12 需嘅系統性工作。 13 另外,仲有一個係再多資源都未必能夠完全克服嘅一個局限,「招標妥」無法 14 防止法團委員同埋承建商或者顧問同承建商私下嘅串通,凡投標者同埋有關人士私 15 下串通,變咗「招標妥」嘅平台嘅匿名性,標書嘅集中收集同埋獨立會計師嘅參 16 與,其實都有一定嘅難度去偵測同埋打擊呢啲不法行為。誠如王思敬先生坦白咁承 17 認市建局未冇關於呢啲串通嘅具體資料。市建局嘅職員亦都未受過特別嘅訓練去識 18 別呢啲不法嘅行為,呢啲喺目前為止,誠如係「招標妥」個原先嘅設計未必能夠做 19 到嘅事。 20 另外,最後一個局限亦都係市建局立場上嘅取態,我哋同一時間亦都聽到委員 21 會律師佢哋對於我哋咁多年嚟市建局覺得唔可以去干預業主嘅決定嘅一啲評價,我 22 哋亦都係歡迎。但係事實係喺現行「招標妥」安排底下,市建局喺招標程序中係唔 23 會參與訂立標書、評核准則同埋評分制度,呢啲事情係由業主或者業主立案法團同 24 埋所聘嘅顧問公司處理。 25 獨立顧問亦都只係能夠確保維修工程最終可以符合強制驗樓嘅命令,至於任何 26 超出訂明項目以外嘅工程或者物料嘅選擇,獨立顧問唔能夠,亦都唔會干預業主對 27 於非強制性工程嘅決定,關鍵在於呢啲都係業主或者法團嘅決定,市建局或者獨立 28 顧問唔能夠推翻或者甚至去指示業主應該去揀啲咩嘢物料,呢啲就係我哋到目前為 29 止市建局行事方面嘅一啲實際局限。 30 市建局喺今次事件汲取好多經驗同埋探討可以改善嘅方向,亦都承認喺若干方 31 面有進步嘅空間,亦都承諾會全面檢討同埋喺一啲地方作出改善。正如發展局局長 32 喺2026 年2 月4 日向立法會公布發展局同埋市建局合作推出加強版嘅「招標 33 妥」,加強版「招標妥」將會協助法團同埋業主喺日後建立嘅「預審名單」裏面聘 34 用顧問公司同埋承建商,從而妥善咁進行樓宇復修工程。為此政府已經喺2027 年 35 至2028 年嘅財政預算裏面,申請咗向市建局撥款合共3 億元港幣,當中1 億元係 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第二十八天

11 本謄本由 Epiq 編製,於聽證會中使用的部分英文詞句由獨立委員會秘書處補充。 起動資金,畀市建局成立一個子公司,專責提供加強版「招標妥」嘅服務,並且令 1 到間子公司有足夠嘅起始資金去推出新服務;另外2 億元就係為咗使用加強版「招 2 標妥」服務嘅業主提供該服務嘅費用寬減資助。 3 加強版「招標妥」個內容包括推出更加嚴格嘅顧問公司同埋承建商嘅「預審名 4 單」,譬如由市建局去監督所有開標,或者亦都去監督所有評標流程等等。透過優 5 化「招標妥」嘅安排,市建局同埋政府希望盡可能進一步降低圍標嘅風險,同時透 6 過提供更加積極、主動嘅協助,譬如協助業主去評估標書,以及向業主或者業主立 7 案法團去推薦特定嘅顧問或者承建商,希望促進業主同埋業主嘅維修工程。 8 有兩點係關於喺招標過程裏面,市建局認為可以改善得到嘅,係透過加強版 9 「招標妥」改善得到嘅。第一個,就係過低嘅顧問標價同埋被抬高嘅承建商價格, 10 市場上似乎有一啲不當嘅做法,一啲不良嘅顧問用異常嘅低標價先取得顧問合約, 11 然後再喺招標過程同埋施工期間同承建商進行一連串違反業主利益嘅不法勾當,呢 12 啲問題喺加強版「招標妥」裏面會得到正面、積極嘅處理。加強版「招標妥」裏 13 面,市建局會代表業主進行招標同埋評核標書,以委聘顧問同埋承建商,與其喺市 14 建局去強化自身嘅角色同埋功能嘅情況底下,預計將會難以接納落入合理範圍以外 15 嘅一啲投標,無論個價錢係過低或者過高。 16 第二方面,就係一啲刑事紀錄嘅核查,「招標妥」嘅設計係由顧問負責去制訂 17 標書文件,市建局並唔擔當監察嘅角色,承建商只係需要持有有效嘅商業登記證同 18 埋相關牌照,就可以參與「招標妥」嘅競投,但係喺2018 年嘅9 月之後,市建局 19 得悉有關顧問公司同埋承建商--如果市建局得悉有關顧問或者承建商因為觸犯《防 20 止賄賂條例》或者《競爭條例》下嘅任何罪行被檢控或者定罪,市建局會暫停或者 21 移除佢哋嘅登記,至於其他刑事同埋紀律處分就唔係喺考慮之列。呢個問題同時間 22 喺加強版「招標妥」亦都會得到正面嘅處理。市建局將會設立一個更加嚴格嘅顧問 23 同埋承建商「預審名單」,令到只有呢啲預審合資格嘅各方先至可以喺電子招標平 24 台上面投標。 25 喺呢個階段,主席同兩位委員,因為政府其實同市建局喺呢個階段依然仲係關 26 於強化版「招標妥」嘅細節,依然都係討論緊,所以誠如我只係講唔能夠向各位大 27 眾而家去好仔細咁去透露或者甚至去講任何加強版「招標妥」嘅細節。我見到委員 28 會大律師團隊喺佢哋嘅書面陳詞裏面有好多建議,同市建局有關嘅,我哋市建局原 29 則上完全支持。但係市建局同政府需要再攜手深入咁研究每一個建議嘅細節,特別 30 係個可行性,同埋資源上、人手上嘅調配能夠做唔做得到,我好相信,亦都代表市 31 建局咁講,佢哋一定會盡自己所能喺現有已經增派咗嘅一啲資源,無論金錢定係人 32 力物力等等,會去盡力將呢啲好有意義嘅一啲建議去推行。政府同埋市建局亦都係 33 要審慎咁再規劃後續工作,以造福整體嘅社區。 34 最後,誠如獨立委員會主席提出,市建局喺個別範疇上面可以做得更加好,但 35 係感激主席亦都去睇得到我哋嘅難處所在,我哋今次呢個聽證會嘅最後嘅建議係想 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第二十八天

12 本謄本由 Epiq 編製,於聽證會中使用的部分英文詞句由獨立委員會秘書處補充。 重視未來個方向。市建局喺今次宏福苑嘅參與,喺投標過程嘅參與唔係全部都有參 1 與嘅,我哋係喺承建商嗰個部分先至參與,咁所以我哋唔想再重提太多喺過往嗰個 2 投票情況嘅一啲細節。 3 市建局面對最大嘅困難其實就係無法憑一己之力完全去杜絶圍標同埋貪污行 4 為,居民同埋執法機構嘅合作不可或缺,市建局未來嘅任務係透過加強版「招標 5 妥」做得更多,做得更好,亦都更加要向公眾清楚咁講明加強版「招標妥」能夠做 6 到乜嘢,唔能夠做到乜嘢,令到業主繼續保持警覺。 7 當年推出「招標妥」嘅目的係為咗大廈復修市場帶來秩序,喺過去嗰十幾年裏 8 面已經提升咗招標程序嘅競爭性同埋透明度,但係招標妥並唔係杜絶圍標或者罪犯 9 嘅完整答案,正如我之前所講,佢係一道屏障,而唔係堡壘,更加唔係我喺開案陳 10 詞講嘅所謂靈丹妙藥。 11 市建局喺冇執法嘅權力同埋有限嘅資源嘅情況之下,一路都係用促進者嘅法定 12 職權範圍內盡其本分,不斷力求進步,我哋市建局會繼續用坦誠同埋謙卑嘅態度汲 13 取經驗,積極咁加強對進行樓宇維修工程嘅業主提供全面實際嘅支援。 14 市建局將會繼續同政府同埋所有持份者合作,以加強保障大型樓宇復修工程嘅 15 所有業主。多謝各位。 16

17 上午10 時54 分呂世杰資深大律師代表市區重建局結案陳詞完畢 18

19 陸啟康法官:唔該晒,呂資深大律師。我就建議我哋不如而家早休。咁就因為既然都講到圍 20 標嘅事情,我諗返嚟應該第一個我哋聽就係競委會嘅陳詞,然後跟住就到梁秉基先 21 生代表律師嘅陳詞。 22 關有禮大律師:主席。 23 陸啟康法官:係。 24 關有禮大律師:為咗省卻時間,(English Spoken)同我一齊做呢單案件,就願意用中 25 文嚟進行個結案陳詞咁樣。 26 陸啟康法官:係,好,我哋就--我今日擺你最後,我聽咗競委會先,然後跟住就到你哋。今 27 日就因為我哋要就一就嗰啲律師嘅行程--嘅日程,我哋聽日先至會係聽其實會兩份 28 非常之長嘅最後陳詞,包括係聽日我哋會係聽--預告就聽日朝頭早會我哋會聽九位 29 嘅居民代表嘅陳詞,然後跟住就到政府嘅代表律師嘅陳詞,就會係用聽日整日。咁 30 然後星期五會就係我哋嘅委員會嘅律師團隊嘅陳詞,預計時間係咁樣樣,咁我喺呢 31 度預告一下先。 32 我哋而家首先會早休十五分鐘,然後跟住返嚟我哋會聽埋競委會同埋梁秉基先 33 生嘅代表律師嘅陳詞。 34

35 上午10 時56 分聽證會押後 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第二十八天

13 本謄本由 Epiq 編製,於聽證會中使用的部分英文詞句由獨立委員會秘書處補充。

1 上午11 時11 分聽證會恢復 2

3 上午11 時11 分李曉亮先生代表競爭事務委員會開始結案陳詞 4

5 陸啟康法官:競委會嘅代表大律師。 6 李曉亮先生:係,主席,兩位委員,午安。我謹代表競委會希望今日作出一個非常之簡短嘅 7 口頭陳詞,我唔預計我自己會講多過十分鐘。喺今次嘅獨立委員會聆訊裏面,競委 8 會總共係入咗四份嘅書面陳詞書,當然我唔會今日係逐份陳詞書咁樣喺度重複嘅。 9 不過,我希望藉住今日呢個機會,就住三點作出一個非常之簡短嘅口頭陳詞,第一 10 點,我希望藉住今次嘅機會將我哋競委會見到同其他執法部門同埋涉事方意見同埋 11 觀察一致嘅事宜就講畀委員會聽。第二,就住圍標應否刑事化,同埋點樣將現行嘅 12 民事起訴程序優化,我都希望作出簡短嘅陳詞。第三,競委會希望就住呢個價目 13 表,即係(English Spoken)方面作出一個簡短嘅陳詞。 14 首先,就住競委會同埋其他執法部門,同埋涉事方意見一致嘅地方,競委會係 15 見到有三個重要嘅事項我哋係意見一致,首先第一,就係關於圍標或者呢啲反競爭 16 行為喺香港嘅普及性、普遍性,委員會可以見到其實所有嘅執法部門,甚至乎有啲 17 涉事方意見都係一致嘅,呢一啲陋習、呢啲行為係喺市場上長期、廣泛、有系統性 18 咁出現,而呢啲行為嘅目標往往就係希望令到呢啲參與圍標嘅人士可以謀取暴利, 19 佢哋謀取暴利嘅辦法可以係首先喺工程裏面,將一啲唔需要嘅項目加入去工程裏面 20 做,及/或就住現有嘅工程項目,應該要做嘅項目嘅價格就提高。而競委會同埋各 21 個嘅執法部門同埋有啲涉事方亦都意見一致嘅地方,就係香港的而且確存在圍標集 22 團或者有系統性嘅圍標做法,而呢一啲集團有時係有三合會領導,有時係有三合會 23 嘅輔助嘅,呢個係第一個我哋見到大家有共識嘅地方。 24 第二個競委會見到係有共識嘅地方就係其實處理圍標或者處理呢啲反競爭行 25 為,呢個唔係一個淨係《競爭法》嘅一個問題,圍標嘅手法層出不窮,參與圍標嘅 26 人亦都無所不用其極,佢哋相關嘅手法有一般嘅反競爭行為喇,即係舉個例合謀定 27 價、瓜分市場、掩護式投標、壓抑投標。佢哋亦都有時會從事一啲行賄嘅行為,呢 28 一個亦都係喺委員會律師書面陳詞第1340 段截錄咗廉政公署呢方面嘅證據,呢啲 29 行賄行為有時係會針對物管公司,有時係會針對業主立案法團裏面嘅要員,但係簡 30 單啲嚟講,所有嘅行為都係令到喺招標過程之中激烈競爭應該呈現嘅好處係被剝奪 31 嘅。 32 第三,當然就係有使用暴力嘅一個做法,競委會喺我哋嘅5 月嗰個陳詞書嘅第 33 一個案例亦都指出,競委會曾經喺我哋調查之中見到有案件係有一個承辦商係透過 34 黑社會,或者一個自稱黑社會嘅人士去對佢嘅競爭者施加暴力,從而勸退佢去入 35 標。而我哋亦都喺委員會律師嘅書面陳詞1328.1 段,亦都見到有一啲案例係截咗 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第二十八天

14 本謄本由 Epiq 編製,於聽證會中使用的部分英文詞句由獨立委員會秘書處補充。 出嚟,就係可能喺揀選或者遴選顧問嗰陣時,見到有一啲不法之徒佢哋係嘗試去將 1 呢啲揀選過程去擾亂嘅。 2 第四,我哋見到有一個幽靈標嘅做法,呢個做法簡單啲嚟講係當有一個業務實 3 體喺市場上成立若干嘅唔同嘅公司,但係佢哋全部都係受同一個人控制或者同一班 4 人控制,而就住一份標書或者一系列嘅標書,佢哋一齊入標,從而營造一個激烈競 5 爭嘅假像,呢個我哋都見到係有發生嘅。而我哋見到委員會嘅書面陳詞亦都有提及 6 類似嘅做法。 7 第五,當然我哋就見到有圍標集團將上述所有嘅陋習或者所有嘅行為都一併咁 8 樣去使用。 9 主席、委員,打擊圍標集團其實大家都又係一致認同係真係有挑戰性,點解? 10 因為當一個行業,當一個陋習係恆久咁樣喺一個行業嗰度出現,你要去將呢啲陋習 11 去擊破或者撥亂反正係相當之難,而競委會喺我哋自己嘅調查經驗亦都見到相關嘅 12 圍標集團,其實佢哋嘅做事方式靈活性高、機動性大。今日我都希望有兩個新嘅案 13 例可以話畀委員會聽,去闡述我頭先所講嘅陳詞。第一,喺競委會嘅調查當中,其 14 中有一件案件,我哋見到一個圍標集團將自己旗下控制嘅承辦商借給或者登記給另 15 外一個圍標集團,等呢個另外一個圍標集團可以措人數,可以更加就住一份標書裏 16 面入更多掩護式嘅標書。呢一個範疇或者呢一個牽涉嘅承辦商數量非常之多,但係 17 由於案件仲喺調查當中,我亦都唔方便呢度透露太多。 18 第二個競委會嘅調查裏面我哋見到發生嘅事宜,諷刺嘅係有少少滑稽嘅,容許 19 我咁講。就係有一個招標過程嘅初期,我哋見到有一個圍標集團希望就住呢一個招 20 標落手,佢除咗招攬佢旗下嘅承辦商嘗試圍標之外,佢亦都喺市場上接觸咗其他集 21 團以外嘅承辦商,希望一齊去圍標。但係當佢作出呢啲接觸嗰陣時佢得番嚟嘅答覆 22 就係啲承辦商話番畀個圍標集團聽,「我哋已經畀另外一個圍標集團登記咗,我哋 23 已經準備就住呢份標書去入標。」 24 主席,呢啲聽落好似好滑稽嘅事,但係其實引伸有兩個好重要嘅問題出現,第 25 一個問題就係你會見到其實呢個問題嗰個廣泛性同埋參與呢個不法手段嘅人士嗰種 26 明目張膽嘅程度係可以去到邊度,佢哋係明刀明槍咁樣問一啲集團以外嘅承辦商 27 「你想唔想參與圍標?」而嗰啲承辦商亦都係好直話直說咁話番畀佢聽「我已經參 28 與緊圍標嘞,對唔住,我幫唔到你。」第二個問題就係我哋... 29 陸啟康法官:咁做市民我哋有冇啲--應該有啲希望可以睇到個曙光呢? 30 李曉亮先生:呢個我陣間就會就住建議上面,我會作出一系列嘅陳詞。 31 陸啟康法官:Okay。 32 李曉亮先生:第二,就係正如我頭先所講,我哋見到其實參與圍標呢啲集團嘅承辦商顧問又 33 好,佢哋有相當大嘅機動性、相當大嘅靈活性。最後,委員會可能會見到我哋競委 34 會同埋例如警方,我哋一致認為就係現有現存嘅法律框架同埋刑罰係並不足以構成 35 有效嘅阻嚇作用嘅,呢個我哋都抱歉咁樣指出呢一點向委員。我哋睇到就住各個執 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第二十八天

15 本謄本由 Epiq 編製,於聽證會中使用的部分英文詞句由獨立委員會秘書處補充。 法部門入嘅證據嚟講,主要嘅原因可能有三個,第一,就係參與圍標往往得到嘅潛 1 在利益非常之龐大,呢一點,當然大家試諗下,當一份標書可能價值成千萬上億嘅 2 時候,中間犯罪集團可以攞嘅油水係何其地多呢? 3 第二點就係就住《競爭條例》嚟講,坊間的而且確係有個說法,就係只不過係 4 民事性質,呢一個睇落或者聽落係有礙《競爭條例》喺相關人士裏面達致一個阻嚇 5 作用嘅信息,呢個我哋競委會我哋都接納嘅呢個。而到到最後就係當然呢一啲嘅合 6 謀行為、圍標行為嘅秘密性,同埋若然需要去喺刑事檢控嘅基礎下面將呢啲人繩之 7 於法嘅難度,呢個競委會亦都係同例如警方同埋廉政公署嘅睇法係一致嘅。 8 有見及此,競委會嘅建議如下,首先就住圍標能夠帶嚟潛在嘅巨大經濟利益, 9 競委會嘅書面陳詞亦都非常之清楚咁指出,競委會建議立法者應該考慮喺《競爭條 10 例》下面清晰咁樣寫明就住啲嚴重反競爭行為,或者就住一般,甚至乎一般嘅反競 11 爭行為嘅罰款程序嚟講,相關嘅舉證標準應該係民事嘅舉證標準。呢一個除咗係將 12 香港同埋國際成熟嘅司法管轄區看齊之外,呢啲司法管轄區包括英國、加拿大、紐 13 西蘭、澳洲,亦都相信會帶畀現在或者潛在參與呢啲合謀行為嘅人士一個清楚嘅信 14 息,若然將來你哋東窗事發,畀競委會捉到你哋係參與圍標嘅,你將會面對巨大罰 15 款嘅機會而家係大大咁提高。而法庭嘅案例亦都非常之清晰咁指出,罰款嘅原因、 16 罰款嘅標準除咗要確保呢啲參與合謀行為嘅人士唔能夠透過佢哋嘅合謀行為能夠獲 17 取任何嘅得益,佢哋每呃嘅一鈫佢哋都要畀番出嚟之外,亦都需要確保相關嘅罰款 18 係達致個別及一般性嘅阻嚇作用。 19 第二點,就住競委會見到或者坊間嘅說法,就係《競爭條例》下面嘅刑罰都只 20 不過係民事,所以唔係咁有牙力,呢個說法。委員會亦都見到競委會清晰咁樣指 21 出,就係競委會希望建議立法者考慮將所有牽涉標書或者招標過程嘅嚴重反競爭行 22 為刑事化。就住刑事化本身嗰個法律責任係點,競委會嘅建議係可以參考《競爭條 23 例》現有嘅91 條,因為現有嘅91 條係已經將個人責任係清晰咁樣寫咗喺《競爭條 24 例》下面,只不過現有犯咗91 條嘅人士,佢哋面對嘅罰款,的而且確係淨係--容 25 許我咁講,用一個民事性質去處理。第二,就係當然透過呢一個做法將參與圍標人 26 士嘅風險成本大大提高,而家參與圍標嘅人士佢唔單止要面對罰款咁簡單,亦都將 27 來可能會面對監禁。到到最後就係關於合謀行為係秘密咁處理,令到呢啲行為非常 28 之難去偵測咁樣。 29 委員會同埋各個涉事方亦都可能會睇到,其實就住打擊圍標或者處理呢呢啲相 30 關嘅顧問、承辦商又好,其實競委會係聯同其他執法部門係聯手作為一系列調查同 31 埋一系列嘅行動。正如今年競委會3 月喺審裁處提交嗰個案件,呢個係競委會同埋 32 廉政公署一個嘅合力嘅調查嘅成果。而我哋亦都之後見到今年6 月,警方同埋廉政 33 公署亦都合力咁樣將有關嘅工程顧問同埋承辦商係作出起訴。呢個係絕對有效或者 34 更加有效咁樣處理呢啲圍標集團嘅秘密性,而透過呢一啲合作去將佢哋瓦解。到到 35 最後,主席、兩位委員,我希望就住價目表事宜作出... 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第二十八天

16 本謄本由 Epiq 編製,於聽證會中使用的部分英文詞句由獨立委員會秘書處補充。 陸啟康法官:我想問一問刑事化嗰度呢,咁你擔唔擔心其實如果係刑事化咗,因為個舉證就 1 變咗係刑事標準。 2 李曉亮先生:係。 3 陸啟康法官:咁亦都係因為咁嘅情況之下,可能帶來你去舉證--因為其實而家我哋大家都好 4 清楚,執法部門其實遇到個困難就係嗰個搜集證據同埋呢個去--攞到去法庭,或者 5 即係民事又好、刑事都好,咁但係刑事就變咗嗰個舉證責任更加高,咁你哋對於呢 6 方面,你個睇法係點樣樣? 7 李曉亮先生:簡單嚟講,我哋嘅睇法就係執法者或者立法者可以考慮用一個「雙軌制」嘅形 8 式處理相關嘅法律事宜。譬如如果同一個反競爭行為,如果證據確鑿或者牽涉重大 9 公眾利益嘅情況之下,可以有一個刑事嘅形式去處理,但係當中亦都保留彈性,就 10 係如果相關嘅行為、相關嘅證據考慮過之後覺得其實都係反而應該用民事嘅性質去 11 處理嘅話,呢一個彈性本身我哋認為係足以有一個有效嘅阻嚇作用。我唔知答唔答 12 到主席你。 13 陸啟康法官:答到,答到。我亦都知道有雙軌,但係我諗都可以畀公眾人士多啲了解嗰個雙 14 軌嗰個運作係點樣樣。唔該晒。 15 李曉亮先生:係,感謝主席。到到最後,我希望就住價目表事宜上面作出非常之簡短嘅陳 16 詞,簡單啲嚟講,其實競委會係明白嘅,即係點解概念上有價目表,好似看似係一 17 個好簡單直接嘅一個辦法去解決居民可能對究竟個市價,究竟入標嗰個價啱唔啱市 18 價,呢一個資訊不相稱嘅問題。但係處理價目標嘅時候呢,競委會覺得係需要小心 19 處理。 20 首先第一,競委會係覺得價目表本身或者撰寫價目表本身,唔應該成為競爭者 21 合謀嘅一個藉口或者一個辦法,如果你係畀競爭者去決定自己應該喺相關市場收嘅 22 價目或者嘅價格應該係點樣嘅話,我哋覺得呢個並唔係一個最有利消費者嘅一個做 23 法。 24 第二,如果相關嘅價目表係由獨立第三方去撰寫,而佢撰寫嘅模式係參考市場 25 價格嘅形式去做嘅話,競委會亦都想指出呢個做法都要小心,因為如果相關嘅市場 26 上面長期出現譬如圍標嘅陋習嘅話,市場上出現嘅參考價本身未必係反映一個喺激 27 烈競爭下面應該呈現嘅價格,而呢個我亦都見到喺委員會律師嘅結案陳詞1517 段 28 係有作出類似嘅睇法嘅。 29 而到到最後,當然就係我哋想指出,用價目表本身唔應該係唯一一個盡職審查 30 嘅一個辦法。當然,有時候一個承辦商可能想激烈競爭,特登佢入嘅價係比較低 31 嘅,呢個絕對係有機會係有合理嘅解釋。同樣,雖然一個承建商佢入嘅標或者顧問 32 佢入嘅標係符合嗰個價目表裏面嗰個(English Spoken),呢個並不代表呢個 33 顧問本身係冇問題嘅,一定要就住盡職審查嗰方面再做多幾步。 34 主席、兩位委員,到到最後,競委會希望藉住今日都同委員會同埋同市民大眾 35 講,競委會明白嘅,處理圍標係競委會嘅主要嘅執法嘅職權範圍之一,就算將來有 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第二十八天

17 本謄本由 Epiq 編製,於聽證會中使用的部分英文詞句由獨立委員會秘書處補充。 冇--立法者又好,委員會又好,有冇接納到競委會嘅建議都好,競委會將會繼續去 1 喺相關市場上面做調查、做起訴,從而擊破呢啲圍標集團,擊破呢啲參與圍標嘅人 2 士,希望從而將有關嘅陋習撥亂反正。 3 主席、兩位委員,我--除非有其他地方可以協助到大家,如果唔係,謹此陳 4 詞。 5

6 上午11 時28 分李曉亮先生代表競爭事務委員會結案陳詞完畢 7

8 上午11 時28 分陳熾龍大律師代表梁秉基先生開始結案陳詞 9

10 陸啟康法官:好多謝你嘅陳詞,亦都多謝你嘅陳詞畀我哋睇到有啲曙光。跟住我哋請下一位 11 請梁秉基先生嘅代表大律師。 12 陳熾龍大律師:多謝主席。咁梁先生都明白主席嘅疑慮,所以我哋都願意用中文嘅形式作呢 13 個結案陳詞嘅。咁我相信我大概需要十五分鐘左右,咁為咗去幫助呢個委員會去尋 14 求真相,梁先生亦都係自願咁樣樣就做咗三份嘅證人供詞,而佢自己亦都係有親身 15 作供嘅,佢亦都係有將佢手頭上所有關事嘅文件同資料亦都係畀咗委員會做參考, 16 因為佢都明白呢件係一件正確嘅事嚟嘅。 17 咁我哋唔重複我哋嘅書面陳詞,咁喺口頭陳詞方面就有五點我想強調嘅,第一 18 點就係要回覆番委員會就住梁先生喺佢作供期間有少少指控嘅,咁我有四個觀察。 19 第一就係梁先生嘅(English Spoken),我哋係需要澄清,就係佢從來都冇話 20 過喺消防工程入面係完全唔需要消防承辦商嘅參與嘅,而佢嘅證供亦都係話喺呢啲 21 消防工程入面,消防承辦商一係係需要實際咁樣去進行個工程,或者個工程係喺消 22 防承辦商嘅監督下進行嘅。佢亦都唔係話如果一個消防承辦商簽咗例如SDN 或者 23 FS251,而個工程係另一位消防承辦商做嘅話,咁簽紙嗰個就可以免受任何刑責, 24 呢個亦都唔係佢嘅立場嚟嘅。 25 第二個觀察,就係委員會都應該會記得梁先生喺佢作供期間,咁委員會嘅大律 26 師就指出咗,梁先生呢個行為會唔會係一個「橡皮圖章式」咁樣嘅做法?咁委員會 27 都會記得梁先生係同意嘅,但係我哋想委員會留意番個前文後理,就係喺梁先生答 28 呢個答案嘅時候,咁其實委員會嘅大律師係有叫梁先生「你唔好諗你個解釋住,我 29 哋之後再探討」,所以我哋睇咗前文後理就會明白到,其實梁先生去承認佢係一個 30 橡皮圖章嘅時候,其實佢係刻意冇理到佢嘅解釋嘅,就淨係喺我哋叫(English 31 Spoken)咁去睇番佢個行為嘅時候,呢個行為算唔算橡皮圖章?梁先生係同意 32 嘅,但係佢答嘅時候係冇考慮到佢嘅解釋嘅,咁詳情可以睇番我哋嘅書面陳詞。 33 陸啟康法官:但係如果唔係佢--唔好講佢嘅答覆,咁事實上都係吖。 34 陳熾龍大律師:梁先生係同意事實--(English Spoken)係嘅。 35 陸啟康法官:即係佢基本上佢簽咗,但係佢冇理。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第二十八天

18 本謄本由 Epiq 編製,於聽證會中使用的部分英文詞句由獨立委員會秘書處補充。 陳熾龍大律師:呢個-- 梁先生嘅立場係呢一個「橡皮圖章」呢個形容係(English 1 Spoken)係正確嘅,喺形容個行為方面,係,喺唔考慮佢嘅解釋嘅情況下。咁我 2 哋嘅立場都係希望委員會可以考慮晒前文後理先至考慮呢個答案,係。 3 咁第三個觀察,就係委員會嘅大律師就喺梁先生作供期間就話「梁先生嘅第一 4 份同埋第二份證人供詞入面係有(English Spoken)嘅地方嘅」,咁當時就係- 5 -我哋喺第九十--即係謄本嘅93 頁嘅第13 行至22 行,咁委員會大律師嘅理解就 6 係,喺第一份證人供詞入面,梁先生就話,梁先生覺得佢幫宏業去做呢件事係冇問 7 題嘅,因為宏業已經去(English Spoken)咗另一個嘅消防承辦商。咁而喺第 8 二份證人供詞,梁先生就話佢覺得佢幫宏業係冇問題嘅,因為宏業本身都係一個消 9 防承辦商。 10 咁樣梁先生個立場就係,其實第一份嘅證人供詞就並唔係正如委員會大律師咁 11 嘅理解嘅,因為其實第一份證人供詞其實係梁先生係答緊(English Spoken) 12 嘅嗰封信嘅第四題嘅,咁而嗰個第四題,我已經係(English Spoken)咗喺我 13 哋嘅書面嘅結案陳詞嘅第53 段。咁簡單而言,其實(English Spoken)係問 14 緊(English Spoken )點解會喺 Victory Fire 已經畀人(English 15 Spoken)個情況之下,亦都再畀人(English Spoken )咁樣樣嘅,係,我哋 16 而家睇番(English Spoken)咗嗰個第四題嗰度,係。咁簡單而言,咁就係問 17 「Victory Fire 已經畀人(English Spoken )咗,點解(English 18 Spoken)仲需要畀人(English Spoken)?」咁樣樣。所以梁先生喺佢嘅第 19 一份證人供詞個答案其實就想解釋番,點解佢--點解(English Spoken)仲需 20 要畀人(English Spoken)咁樣樣,咁佢就冇嘗試去解釋點解佢覺得佢幫宏業 21 呢件事係冇問題嘅。所以簡單嚟講就係第一份證人陳述書同第二份係答緊唔同嘅問 22 題,所以中間係冇任何(English Spoken)嘅情況出現嘅。 23 第四個觀察,就係我哋啱啱收到委員會大律師嘅書面結案陳詞,其中嘅第789 24 段,就話梁先生嘅證供喺第一同第二份中間就有好根本性嘅轉變,(English 25 Spoken ),咁而梁先生喺第二份證人陳述書嘅解釋就係一個(English 26 Spoken),即係一個最近捏造出嚟嘅一個解釋嚟嘅。 27 咁首先,“(English Spoken)”係一個好嚴重嘅指控,但係梁先生喺作 28 供期間就冇畀人當面咁樣提出過呢件事,即係我哋行內俗語就係冇畀人(English 29 Spoken)到呢個(English Spoken)嘅,咁呢件事就對梁先生係好不公,因 30 為梁先生係冇機會去解釋到底發生過咩嘢事嘅。 31 第二,就係其實就正如頭先上一個觀察一樣,就係其實第一份證人陳述書同第 32 二份證人陳述書係答緊唔同嘅問題嘅,喺唔同嘅階段。喺第一份證人陳述書嗰度, 33 同樣地梁先生係答緊(English Spoken )嘅嗰封信嘅,咁(English 34 Spoken)嗰封信喺--個問題嗰陣時就係問,係一個好事實嘅一個問題嚟,佢就搵 35 緊到底當時發生咩嘢事,嗰個問題係(English Spoken)10.1,(English 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第二十八天

19 本謄本由 Epiq 編製,於聽證會中使用的部分英文詞句由獨立委員會秘書處補充。 Spoken)嘅嗰封信。其實佢個問題就係問,到底係邊一個閂咗嗰個消防警報系 1 統,事實上邊個關咗,所以梁先生亦都答咗佢就係唔係佢閂嘅。咁佢冇嘗試去解 2 釋,亦都冇嘗試去(English Spoken)佢點解做過啲乜,總之佢就答事實上唔 3 係佢閂嘅咁樣樣。 4 咁當時,喺嗰個階段,(English Spoken )嗰個(English Spoken ) 5 嗰度,就住對梁先生嘅指控其實唔清楚嘅,所以梁先生亦都冇作更多嘅解釋。咁直 6 至到去委員會大律師嘅開案陳詞嘅時候,咁對梁先生嘅指控就比較清晰,咁既然清 7 晰咗之後,梁先生亦都係做咗第二份嘅證人供詞,因為我哋由委員會開案陳詞就見 8 到,委員會就對以下嘅有疑問嘅,就係到底(English Spoken)去幫宏業去申 9 請嗰個-- 我哋提及過嘅 SDN ,到底呢件事係得唔得嘅?同埋(English 10 Spoken)到底係有冇做到監督嘅角色定還是純粹係掛名嘅?梁先生知道委員會呢 11 個疑問之後,佢就隨即亦都準備咗第二份嘅證人供詞,咁佢第二份證人供詞佢就去 12 解釋到底點解佢覺得(English Spoken)去幫宏業去申請SDN 呢件事係冇問題 13 嘅。 14 最後第三點就係(English Spoken)去幫宏業去申請SDN 呢件事,就並唔 15 係喺第二份證人供詞嗰度(English Spoken)嘅,因為其實喺第一份證人供詞 16 嘅時候,梁先生已經有提及過,(English Spoken )之前已經有被宏業 17 (English Spoken )咗去做兩個(English Spoken ),分別就係 18 (English Spoken)同埋呢個(English Spoken),就係佢--同樣地,都 19 係(English Spoken)就幫宏業去申請呢個SDN 嘅。 20 好,而家去到第二點,我哋最近收到何建業先生嘅第二份證人供詞,上個禮拜 21 收到嘅,咁樣其中何先生有兩個指控係關(English Spoken)事嘅,就係分別 22 係第 21 至 22 段,佢就話宏業係(English Spoken )咗(English 23 Spoken)去進行(English Spoken),就做咗呢三樣嘢嘅,就住宏福閣呢個 24 工程。而第二個指控就係第26 至27 段,何先生就話佢冇收到任何通知就係個消防 25 栓同埋嗰個喉轆系統係需要被關,而消防處亦都係冇被通知嘅。 26 就此,梁先生有三個回應。第一,就係喺(English Spoken)畀宏業嘅報 27 價單嗰度其實已經好清楚咁樣指明,(English Spoken )係會申請呢個 28 (English Spoken)嘅,咁而喺嗰個報價單嗰度,亦都有宏業嘅呢個公司印, 29 所以宏業其實係好清楚係會有(English Spoken )嘅呢個(English 30 Spoken)嘅。咁而呢個報價單亦都係冇寫到話會有(English Spoken )同埋 31 (English Spoken)嘅。所以呢個就同何先生嘅指控就有出入。 32 第二就係同樣地,喺同一個報價單嗰度,就係包括咗有要畀16--sorry,要 33 畀120 個嘅(English Spoken),即係嗰啲滅火桶嘅,咁其實點解要咁多個滅 34 火桶,其實就係正正係因為個消防栓系統係(English Spoken),所以就需要 35 有呢啲咁嘅應對嘅措施咁樣樣。所以都好明顯,就係宏業係知道個消防栓系統係 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第二十八天

20 本謄本由 Epiq 編製,於聽證會中使用的部分英文詞句由獨立委員會秘書處補充。 (English Spoken)嘅。 1 咁第三個觀察就係其實(English Spoken )係一直都有同宏業係透過 2 WhatsApp 保持聯繫嘅,咁我哋喺WhatsApp group 嗰度咁都見到,其實 3 (English Spoken)係不斷有將SDN 嘅(English Spoken)嗰啲係send 4 畀宏業嘅,所以如果話宏業係唔知道有任何消防系統係需要關閉嘅話,呢件事係難 5 以令人信服嘅。 6 第三個點,就係消防工程嘅分工合作,我哋英文用咗個(English 7 Spoken)係“(English Spoken)”。其實姜Sir 喺委員會作供嘅時候亦都 8 同意咗呢個做法係可以嘅,咁而法律上,我哋見到--我哋已經成日--最近都望到就 9 係香港法例第第95A 章《消防(裝置承辦商)規例》嘅第6A(3)嗰度,佢嘅用字 10 亦都好明顯係見到佢係預示到一個消防裝置承辦商係會幫另一個消防承辦商做嘢 11 嘅,咁而佢嘅用字亦都係預示--亦都係(English Spoken)咗我哋叫做,就係 12 一個消防承辦商幫另一個消防承辦商做嘢呢件事係(English Spoken),亦都 13 係一個好普遍嘅做法嚟嘅。就住個(English Spoken)1/2021 嗰度,梁先生 14 嘅立場就係就住而家呢個情況,嗰封信--呢個(English Spoken)作用就不大 15 嘅,個參考作用就不大嘅,點解呢?因為嗰封信係冇就住如果有多過一個消防承辦 16 商參與同一個消防工程嘅情況下作出解釋嘅,嗰個信係冇(English Spoken) 17 到呢個內容嘅,所以梁先生嘅立場就係嗰封信係用途不大嘅。 18 第四點,就係(English Spoken)同埋佢喺呢一個宏福苑嘅工程嘅角色, 19 咁喺考慮(English Spoken)喺呢一個工程嘅角色嘅時候,梁先生有七個觀察 20 係希望委員會可以考慮嘅。第一,就係梁先生係真誠相信宏業係一個消防承辦商嚟 21 將,雖然最後佢發現原來呢個並不係事實嚟嘅,咁但係雖然並不係事實,但佢佢亦 22 都有(English Spoken)去做呢個--即係有呢個(English Spoken)嘅, 23 點解呢?就係第一,何先生係一直都有同梁先生講宏業係一個消防承辦商嚟嘅。第 24 二,喺(English Spoken)嘅時候,梁先生亦都係見到有文件係寫住宏業係一 25 個消防承辦商嚟嘅,咁而梁先生亦都係有查過嗰個消防承辦商嘅名冊,亦都有見到 26 「宏業」呢個字出現咗喺嗰個表上面嘅,雖然佢事後就發現原來涉案嘅宏業就唔係 27 喺嗰個列表上嘅宏業,而係另一個--喺個列表上嘅宏業係一個差唔多名,但係唔一 28 樣嘅公司嚟嘅,佢事後亦都係發現咗。咁但係梁先生相信宏業係消防承辦商呢件 29 事,喺佢作供嘅時候亦都係畀人挑戰咗,但係雖然佢不斷畀人挑戰,但係梁先生個 30 答案亦都係好清楚,就係話佢當時真係相信宏業係一個消防承辦商嚟嘅。第二,就 31 係宏業同埋(English Spoken)其實喺之前嘅消防工程已經係有合作過,咁樣 32 佢哋合作亦都相安無事,咁呢個亦都係令到梁先生覺得之前合作相安無事嘅話,咁 33 呢一個project 都--即係宏福苑呢個工程亦都係唔會有啲咩嘢大問題嘅。 34 跟住就係委員會可能都記得喺梁先生作供期間,委員會嘅大律師就有挑戰過梁 35 先生嘅講法,就係「如果你真係打咗咁多個電話畀宏業嘅話,咁點解冇提供到任何 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第二十八天

21 本謄本由 Epiq 編製,於聽證會中使用的部分英文詞句由獨立委員會秘書處補充。 通話紀錄?」咁樣樣,咁而有鑑於此,梁先生喺佢作供之後,亦都做咗第三份嘅證 1 人陳述書,咁樣就佢係畀咗好多嘅通話紀錄,而呢個通話紀錄亦都係顯示到喺 2 2025 年嘅3 月中至到11 月,梁先生係打咗八十五個電話畀宏業嘅張先生嘅,咁 3 張先生就係宏業嘅(English Spoken)。 4 跟住就住個工程長度方面,姜Sir 喺佢作供期間亦都係同意咗,維修水缸呢件 5 事係有機會係需要好幾個月嘅,咁呢個亦都印證咗點解梁先生覺得個工程整咗幾個 6 月都係冇問題,正正就係因為整幾個月呢件事係冇問題嘅,所以梁先生亦都係冇原 7 因去懷疑張先生係有呃佢或者講咗任何唔準確嘅資訊畀佢聽嘅。 8 而至於宏業話佢冇足夠人手去處理呢個十四天嘅續期申請,咁梁先生亦都係邀 9 請委員會就係去考慮,就係其實梁先生當呢刻係冇任何原因去質疑呢個說法嘅,雖 10 然我哋而家知道原來宏業係接咗一個$3 億嘅工程,咁點解冇少少--冇人手去處理 11 個區區十四天嘅續期申請咁樣樣,但係我哋考慮番梁先生嘅角度,喺當時--喺當呢 12 刻嘅期間,其實梁先生係完全冇任何原因去質疑宏業嘅說法嘅。 13 同樣地,喺報價單嗰度我哋見到(English Spoken )係收咗個固定嘅金 14 額,就係56,000 鈫,就係去幫宏業進行呢個SDN 嘅(English Spoken)同 15 埋FS251 嘅(English Spoken)嘅。梁先生作供嘅時候都有話呢個數係不論續 16 期申請嘅數量或者嘅次數咁講,亦都係會收呢個數嘅。梁先生嘅角度就係呢一個係 17 好普通商業嘅做法,咁收一個固定嘅數亦都唔係一個好特別嘅事,亦都唔 18 (English Spoken)任何不當嘅(English Spoken),我哋嘅講法就係。 19 咁樣最後一個(English Spoken),就住個消防警報系統嘅,梁先生係同 20 意如果嗰個警報系統喺火災當中係有著嘅話,係有機會可以減低人命傷亡嘅。但係 21 喺考慮消防警報系統嘅效用之前,梁先生亦都希望委員會可以考慮以下幾個因素 22 嘅。第一,就係喺呢一個慘劇嗰度,我哋見到其實逃離嘅時間個窗口其實好短嘅, 23 咁我哋以宏昌閣做例子,咁喺跨部門小組嗰個報告嗰度,我哋見到就係佢話係有一 24 個不多於十分鐘嘅時間窗口去畀啲居民逃離嘅,咁呢十分鐘係點樣得出嚟嘅呢,就 25 係喺14:48 時間嘅時候,個保安就嘗試手動去響嗰個火警鐘,但係唔成功。跟住 26 喺十分鐘之後,即係14:58,咁個樓梯間就變得(English Spoken),即係成 27 條都唔可以再用咁樣樣,所以跨部門專案小組就覺得有一個不多過於十分鐘嘅逃離 28 時間,咁但係我哋角度就係可能喺實際嚟講,居民係少過呢個時間去逃離嘅。 29 陸啟康法官:你唔好話畀我聽消防鐘冇用。 30 陳熾龍大律師:我絕對唔係咁嘅意思嘅,絶對唔係。 31 陸啟康法官:即係我諗你想講,即係話有頭嗰兩座其實就即係時間好短,但係如果你話畀我 32 聽消防鐘冇用,我諗呢度冇人會同意你嘅講法我相信。我會明,我會明白,即係你 33 話可能頭一兩座即係嗰個逃離時間短,但係我諗你唔係話消防鐘冇用? 34 陳熾龍大律師:絕對唔係嘅,主席,絶對唔係嘅,係。而事實上梁先生喺佢作供嘅時間亦都 35 有同意到消防鐘係有用嘅,係有響嘅話係可以減低人命傷亡嘅,只係喺考慮效果嘅 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第二十八天

22 本謄本由 Epiq 編製,於聽證會中使用的部分英文詞句由獨立委員會秘書處補充。 時候,我哋有幾個因素想即係畀委員會參考下咁解。第一,就係個逃離時間係好短 1 咁樣樣,詳細嘅時間嗰啲數字方面,我亦都喺個書面嘅陳述書嗰度--書面嘅結案陳 2 詞嗰度講咗,咁亦都我唔再重複,時間點方面。 3 另一個觀察就係嗰個發泡膠遮咗個窗嗰度,我哋嘅立場就係當一個居民聽到個 4 火警鐘嘅時候,當然佢係需要睇下--要諗下到底係唔係應該逃離,咁諗下應唔應該 5 逃離嘅時候,就其實係需要例如睇下有冇火,或者睇下會唔會有濃煙咁樣樣,咁但 6 係嗰個發泡膠遮咗個窗呢件事就影響佢哋做呢個判斷嘅。 7 陸啟康法官:因為你自己諗下,就算係宏昌、宏泰係有人走得到嘅。 8 陳熾龍大律師:係嘅,閣下,係。 9 陸啟康法官:即係如果個警鐘係早啲響嘅時候,可能你多兩層樓都好,即係個鐘係有用嘅, 10 上面可能真係好--即係所以我覺得就即係呢個說法就--如果你哋希望用呢個減低你 11 哋嗰個錯誤嗰個責任就即係抱歉,呢個我覺得都幾難接受。 12 陳熾龍大律師:明白嘅,閣下,純粹係即係畀多少少因素委員會參考咁嘅意思。我哋即係重 13 申一點,梁先生亦都係覺得消防鐘係真係有用嘅,響咗嘅話真係會減低人命傷亡 14 嘅,呢個亦都係梁先生一貫以嚟嘅立場嚟嘅。 15 最後,就係想講一講個消防系統嗰個到底係唔係(English Spoken)。因 16 為我頭先提及過,就係有幾座--有幾個單位喺事後嘅調查嗰度就見到呢個警報系統 17 其實唔會著,同埋嗰個保險絲係除咗宏昌閣之外,其實已經係燒咗。咁一個好簡單 18 嘅觀察,就係我哋委員會唔可以假設如果嗰個刀掣係著咗嘅話,咁喺火警期間嗰個 19 火警警報系統就會著,就未必可以咁簡單做咗呢個假設,就係咁。 20 真係最後最後,梁先生亦都希望透過我就去強調佢對呢件事係深表遺憾同歉 21 意,亦都係希望所有受影響嘅人可以早日走出傷痛,咁亦都希望梁先生對例如佢提 22 供嘅文件,佢提供嘅證據可以幫到委員會係尋求到真相嘅即係。有勞主席。 23

24 上午11 時55 分陳熾龍大律師代表梁秉基先生結案陳詞完畢 25

26 陸啟康法官:唔該晒,陳大律師。我哋今日因為個日程嘅安排,我哋今日聽咗都係幾個嘅涉 27 事方,佢哋似乎係即係都會比較針對特別即係一部分嘅議題,咁聽日、後日其實就 28 會長好多,我諗大家都聽到佢哋講,我哋委員會嘅大律師佢哋(English 29 Spoken)到已經係一千五百幾段,所以我諗呢兩日都可以預告畀大家聽,聽日同 30 後日我哋就會即係有長啲嘅陳詞亦都係會,可能佢哋嘅陳詞包括政府方面亦都係, 31 委員會嘅大律師係會,即係各方面都會,咁所以各方面嘅事實都會講嘅,所以佢哋 32 嘅陳詞會比較耐少少,所以聽日同後日我哋都一定需要整天嘅時間係聽取呢個陳詞 33 嘅。咁今日我哋就會早少少完結,我哋聽日10 點鐘係會繼續。亦都係同樣聽日九 34 點半,我哋會將聽日嘅陳詞係會上載到各網站,嗰度大家可以睇得到嘅,咁變咗大 35 家都唔需要,係即係即時可以--即係知道代表律師個陳詞係乜嘢嘢,所以就我哋而 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第二十八天

23 本謄本由 Epiq 編製,於聽證會中使用的部分英文詞句由獨立委員會秘書處補充。 家今日會早啲完,咁聽日就會10 點鐘繼續。 1

2 上午11 時56 分聽證會押後 3 (聽證會將於2026 年7 月16 日10 時00 分繼續) 4

FD06261 | 2025_港澳台_香港宏福苑大火_Transcript-(Chinese)_20260716.pdf

分类:06_境外及港澳台调查报告 | 年份:2025 | 地域:香港 | 严重程度: | 场所: | 起火原因: | 来源格式:pdf

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第二十九天

本謄本由 Epiq 編製,於聽證會中使用的部分英文詞句由獨立委員會秘書處補充。 就大埔宏福苑火災成立的獨立委員會

聽證會

高等法院原訟法庭陸啟康法官 陳健波議員 歐陽伯權博士

日期:

第二十九天 2026 年7 月16 日

杜淦堃資深大律師、俞匡庭大律師、李澍桓大律師、馮天榮大律師、張天 風大律師及李俊軒大律師代表獨立委員會

卓元暢資深大律師、孫靖乾資深大律師、陸栩然大律師及劉逸冲大律師代 表政府

阮文躍大律師代表市區重建局

律政司代表

競爭事務委員會代表

譚俊傑大律師及李峰琦大律師代表宏褔苑居民

何卓衡大律師及楊志聰大律師代表置邦興業有限公司

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第二十九天

1 本謄本由 Epiq 編製,於聽證會中使用的部分英文詞句由獨立委員會秘書處補充。

以下內容乃聽證會數碼錄音謄本 1

2 10 時00 分聽證會恢復 3

4 陸啟康法官:請譚大律師。 5

6 10 時00 分譚俊傑大律師代表宏褔苑居民開始結案陳詞 7

8 譚俊傑大律師:係,主席、兩位委員,首先感謝委員會遷就我嘅日子,我係代表九位嘅宏福 9 苑嘅居民,其實亦都即係代表緊八位嘅死者家屬,我哋已經係入咗一個書面陳詞, 10 同埋建議嘅方案嘅。簡單而言呢,居民方係認為呢一次嘅火災係因為環環嘅即係涉 11 事方喇,嘅一啲失誤或者意外而產生嘅。咁就住宏業喇,當然,我哋係會簡略嘅, 12 因為我哋都明白係有其他一啲法律嘅案件係進行中,我哋喺個書面陳詞都寫得好清 13 楚,我哋唔會要求即係聽證會係去處理嗰方面嘅責任,當然係應該法庭去處理。 14 就住宏業,明顯喇,宏業最明顯就係關於嗰個不具阻燃性能嘅棚網喇,同埋喺 15 呢個獨立審查組巡查期間,我哋講法係刻意魚目混珠,去掩飾呢個用一啲不具阻燃 16 性能嘅棚網,當然亦都有好多嘅證據證明棚網--不具阻燃性能嘅棚網係導致呢個大 17 火係迅速蔓延嘅原因喇。另外,當然亦都係就住吸煙嗰方面呢,其實居民方已經有 18 好多次嘅投訴喇,但係宏業對呢啲嘅投訴呢,都係冇乜特別嘅去--即係去認真咁樣 19 去處理嘅。咁關於鴻毅同埋吳曜,其實鴻毅作為呢個顧問公司呢,基本上係冇真正 20 做到一個監察嘅工作,吳曜基本上就見唔到,吳曜基本上冇真係落過去宏福苑,只 21 係似係一個橡皮圖章,淨係簽署一啲嘅文件。同埋即係起碼喺火災前嘅整個做法 22 呢,其實好多方呢,例如市建局等等,都係會依賴呢個鴻毅係會去監察住整個嘅工 23 程,所以喺鴻毅呢一方如果佢哋做唔到一個監察嘅角色,當然亦都可能有一啲圍標 24 等等嘅情況喇,我哋一陣間再講喇。喺呢個咁嘅情況之下,基本上係完全辜負咗居 25 民對鴻毅專業嘅信任嘅。 26 當然,喺鴻毅我哋另外亦都想特別提出喇,就係佢哋刻意隱瞞宏業過往涉及嘅 27 訴訟紀錄喇,呢個令到宏業可以獲得較高嘅分數,跟住之後最終係中標嘅。喺呢啲 28 咁嘅情況都係我哋見到呢,如果係屬實嘅話已經係喺度操縱緊一個評審程序,呢個 29 亦都可能會係我哋以後就算喺一啲建議上面都要睇下點樣可以改善呢一個情況。 30 咁就住中華發展工程有限公司呢,當然就係關於嗰個關閉消防裝置通知書或者 31 我哋成日叫嘅SDN 喇,其實會見到佢一開始報價已經係即係報咗呢一個系統係要停 32 一年㗎嘞,另外,其實亦都做過,即係申請咗好多次,八十多次,申請過延期十六 33 次,喺宏志閣同埋宏泰閣,同埋實際上亦都冇真係派遣一啲合資格嘅人士去視察個 34

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第二十九天

2 本謄本由 Epiq 編製,於聽證會中使用的部分英文詞句由獨立委員會秘書處補充。 消防水缸嘅維修工程,亦都冇親自檢查嗰啲消防栓、喉轆等等。我有睇到昨日嘅謄 1 本嘅,所以我相信委員會對於橡皮圖章嗰一個部分已經知道我嘅陳詞㗎嘞,我只不 2 過係想再重申係梁秉基先生自己承認個過程基本上係一個橡皮圖章嚟嘅,係嘞,我 3 唔再重複。 4 宏泰嗰邊面呢,即係Victory Fire,宏泰消防工程,咁佢哋簡單啲嚟到講 5 呢,其實有幾次嘅機會,包括喺10 月16 號2025 年,已經知道嗰八座大廈係進 6 行緊維修工程,咁係基本上亦都知道個消防供水系統唔係喺一個正常嘅運作狀態 7 嘅。同埋到最後喺大火前嘅一星期,2025 年11 月19 日,亦都已經發現咗八座大 8 廈嘅消防系統總電掣已經被關閉,但係好明顯佢哋嘅做法都係話「行規就唔好教人 9 做嘢喇,通知管理處已經係多事」。所以點解我哋就都有一個建議呢,就係可能應 10 該要考慮統一一啲大型維修工程消防系統管理嘅責任,等佢哋唔好即係左推右,右 11 推左咁樣嘅情況會再次發生嘅。 12 咁就住置邦,係,就住置邦,係嘞,置邦當然當日有一啲嘅前線嘅員工佢哋有 13 盡力去協助疏散居民,呢方面我哋當然係知道,亦都明白嘅。係嘞,但係我哋最主 14 要都係講喺當日之前發生嘅嘢,例如授權票,坦白講如果打個交叉都當簽名,呢個 15 我哋真係認為係不能接受嘅,係嘞。 16 另外,其實亦都喺火災之前喇,已經係有一啲投訴關於授權票嘅問題喇,但係 17 睇嚟置邦係完全冇對啲授權票係作出任何嘅抽查嘅。咁另外一個就係啲居民已經喺 18 工程會上面係對大維修有一啲嘅安全嘅隱憂係有反映過嘅,但係似乎呢,置邦係有 19 一啲指引嘅,即係喺我嘅書面結案陳詞我都有講到,公平啲。但係睇嚟呢,前線嘅 20 員工好似對於啲指引唔係特別清楚,咁所以我相信喺關於呢個培訓方面呢,係監察 21 不足。 22 當然我哋一開頭講到喇,尤其關於某一啲嘅涉事方好明顯就誤導政府喇,呢個 23 我哋接受,亦都係知道嘅。但係我哋亦都認為政府各部門亦都有一啲嘅責任,包括 24 房屋局嘅獨立調查組,獨立調查組,當然吳曜係一個橡皮圖章,但係其實獨立調查 25 組我哋嘅說法都係其實冇真係直接同吳曜聯絡,當然我哋有見過一啲電郵嘅資料, 26 但係啲電郵睇嚟都係去個一般嘅--即係鴻毅嘅一個電郵地址嘅啫。 27 另外一個,我哋當然喺我哋作出詢問嘅時候都係一個比較關注一點,就係預約 28 通知呢一個情況,預約通知呢個情況,當然間接喇,即係當然唔係特登喇,但係間 29 接就令到呢個有一啲嘅涉事方就嘗試魚目混珠換咗一啲嘅非阻燃網。呢一方面我哋 30 係認為要改變嗰個巡查嘅原則,所以我哋亦都作出咗建議,應該係--最主要係應該 31 做一啲突擊嘅巡查,我哋亦都見到委員會嘅律師佢哋都有一個相類似嘅建議,即係 32 都係以突擊檢查為基礎,除非有特殊嘅情況。 33 咁另外一個嘅問題,我哋認為就係過度依賴或者相信承建商提交嘅相關證書 34 喇,呢個唔止係喺獨立調查組出現,喺勞工處都有出現,就係原來只不過係交番一 35 張舊嘅或者再交多一次同一張嘅證書,但係就冇去核實係咪嗰張證書同而家使用嘅 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第二十九天

3 本謄本由 Epiq 編製,於聽證會中使用的部分英文詞句由獨立委員會秘書處補充。 棚網批次係咪講緊同一堆嘅棚網。 1 跟住,當然對於獨立調查組,我哋關於嗰個處理投訴都係有意見嘅,其中一位 2 嘅居民江先生亦都曾經係向個獨立調查組去反映過關於啲棚網阻燃性嘅關注,因為 3 華懋大火之後。我知道獨立調查組到最後係有去檢查,呢個我當然明白喇,但係從 4 佢回覆中,電郵回覆中完全冇即係提及過或者點樣去處理個火災風險嘅投訴呢,其 5 實可以見到其實佢哋當時獨立調查組嘅著眼點根本就唔係火災風險,唔重視,如果 6 唔係唔會喺個電郵嘅回覆入面完全唔記得咗呢件事。 7 跟住亦都係另外一點呢,就係關於獨立調查組係好多時都係依賴一個文件嘅審 8 查喇,咁往往係居民投訴先至安排實地視察,呢一個即係淨係依賴顧問公司嘅可靠 9 性呢一個,我諗係從今次事件見到並不切實可行。另外當然就係關於屋宇署同埋獨 10 立調查組嘅關係喇,咁首先竟然容兆論係話佢大火發生後,先至發現屋宇署原來兩 11 年半前已經修訂咗個工地監察組手冊呢,應該要有20%進行實地嘅巡查,呢一個當 12 然係一個好大嘅漏洞喇。其實我哋係有一個建議嘅,當然,我留意到委員會律師都 13 話應該有一啲跨部門嘅守則,關於溝通嘅守則,呢個我哋當然都認為係合適喇。但 14 係就住獨立調查組同埋屋宇署,其實係咪仍然應該分開兩個部門去處理呢?呢一方 15 面我哋係有一個睇法,我哋認為呢,如果既然係有咁嘅可能存在一啲溝通同埋協調 16 嘅問題,倒不如就係由一個部門去處理,避免架床疊屋,因為其實我諗證據上都見 17 到其實獨立調查組亦都需要番一啲屋宇署嘅官員又要調番過獨立調查組,去協助獨 18 立調查組嘅,可能簡單啲就係全部都係納入喺屋宇署嘅管轄範圍。 19 勞工處,勞工處最主要就係關於食煙嘅投訴,食煙投訴我哋係認為如果即係影 20 得好清楚嘅一啲嘅相片或者係一啲嘅片段,咁其實應該都要已經係足以係可以去進 21 行呢一個嘅檢控,咁呢一方面話,如果勞工處嘅職員見唔到啲工友喺地盤度食煙就 22 等於唔可以檢控,呢個我哋認為係唔可以接受嘅。當然,我都留意到好似立法會昨 23 天係有一個法案嘅通過,以我理解就係地盤應該係全面禁煙,我留意到嘅,係嘞, 24 希望咁樣亦都會幫助到勞工處更加容易執法,係關於喺地盤入面吸煙嘅情況。當 25 然,關於巡查,我哋都係有一啲睇法喇,即係如果只係通常都係喺地盤巡查呢,有 26 需要先去天台呢,未必係可以係一個好有效嘅一個巡查嚟嘅。 27 轉介,轉介方面呢,其實就我諗即係呢個喺消防,例如都已經係講咗㗎嘞,即 28 係佢哋而家係會主動走去即係跟進一啲轉介喇,希望各個部門都會,呢個喺好多部 29 門都可能會出現嘅,所以希望嗰個部門都會有一個相同嘅機制喇。 30 棚網,我已經講咗嘞,棚網係同一份棚網嗰度冇留意到,呢個係不能夠接受 31 嘅,即係用同一張證書重複使用,呢個係不能夠接受嘅。 32 消防處喇,消防處頭先講到,因為其實係我另外一位代表居民蘇先生都有曾經 33 致電消防處去問過啲發泡膠,我諗大家都記得嗰方面嘅證據,但係當時就冇作出一 34 個進一步嘅跟進同埋個轉介安排,呢個係唔理想嘅。咁跟住之後當然就係--另外一 35 個就係關於嗰個樓梯通道開口嘅投訴,竟然話唔係消防處嘅職權範圍呢,呢個都係 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第二十九天

4 本謄本由 Epiq 編製,於聽證會中使用的部分英文詞句由獨立委員會秘書處補充。 唔理想嘅。下一個FS251 或者消防裝置同埋設備證書嘅流程嗰方面呢,咁我相信 1 消防處已經接受咗當時嘅做法係差㗎嘞,所以消防處其實已經改咗,而家全部都要 2 電子咁樣去提交喇。但係我哋亦都想講就係消防處另外一個我哋認為做得不足嘅地 3 方,就係關於對嗰啲SDN 嘅監測喇,因為其實個消防系統竟然喺宏志閣同宏泰閣係 4 停咗成七個月,同埋個機制睇嚟都幾相信啲承辦商。咁呢個我哋喺宏福苑呢件事已 5 經見到,只係單憑相信承辦商,個火災風險係明顯地繼續存在嘅。咁跟住呢,或者 6 巡查,巡查嘅內容冇特別去檢查個消防警鐘或者喺個加壓泵房入面做檢查呢,呢一 7 方面我哋都認為係有做得不足嘅之處嘅。 8 講完政府呢,下一個就係關於市建局,市建局呢,我哋認為其實喺市區重建局 9 條例入面嘅5A 同埋6(1)其實係定咗一個幾闊嘅法例,賦予市建局一個幾闊嘅權力 10 嘅,因為其中一項嘅宗旨就佢負責透過進行鼓勵推廣同埋促進市區重建,同埋有權 11 進行任何有利於達到頭先我所講宗旨嘅事情。同埋關於反圍標,我淨係想提一提番 12 當時點解有「招標妥」係因為翠湖花園事件,翠湖花園事件其實就係要去打擊反圍 13 標,所以其實市建局當然對反圍標應該就有一個嘅--即係政府係希望市建局可以做 14 到一個關於反圍標嘅一個情況喇。 15 同埋我另外一個想講就係,即係我哋聽到一啲證據,可能就算見到嗰啲維修顧 16 問費係特別地低呢,即係其實喺之前有一啲嘅報告都已經講過㗎嘞,就係如果以工 17 程顧問以極低標價贏得項目再去串謀承建商高價中標,係一個好普遍嘅反競爭行為 18 嚟嘅。所以其實喺今次嘅事件亦都見到鴻毅用嘅即係中標嘅錢係市建局都認為睇落 19 去數字上係平嘅,係嘞。咁喺呢個情況之下,係咪都應該同法團講,就算唔係話影 20 響法團嗰個選擇,都應該話畀法團聽呢個係比平均價或者一個市價係特別低,呢一 21 樣嘢唔會影響--即係唔會話直接去影響個法團嘅選擇,希望以後市建局都可以咁樣 22 做到。 23 另外一個當然就係關於即係有冇留意到啲投標者,宏福苑項目嘅投標者有就檢 24 控同埋定罪紀錄提供一啲涉嫌虛假嘅資料,嗰方面我哋認為市建局都有做得不足, 25 佢哋係有方法可以去查到一啲檢控或者定罪紀錄,但係佢哋冇做到。 26 另外,市建局都可能有陣時會收到一啲投訴嘅,呢個亦都有證供喇,佢哋就會 27 話「你可以同相關部門提出喇」,我亦都希望,既然政府都會係去主動將一啲投訴 28 轉介,亦都會跟進,亦都希望市建局可以咁樣做到,即係因為淨係講相關部門提出 29 喺嗰次嘅事件重要係話,應該唔難諗到係屋宇署,可能對於一般小市民投訴嚟到講 30 係有啲難度嘅,即係知道原來係邊一個政府部門,但係我諗唔係淨係話番畀佢聽邊 31 個政府部門,應該好似政府而家嘅做法咁樣去主動跟進,睇下會去咗--應該去邊個 32 部門同埋嗰個部門有冇去跟進。因為當然,我哋相信市建局都要諗下「招標妥」嘅 33 獨立顧問嘅角色喇,我諗大家都記得即係關於一個富邦嘅比喻喇,咁就係富邦可能 34 喺第一個工程做球證,第二個工程做球員。我唔係話富邦,即係我哋有啲咩證據話 35 佢有問題,嗰個只係一個我諗大家都記得可能係委員會資深大律師問嘅時候嘅一個 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第二十九天

5 本謄本由 Epiq 編製,於聽證會中使用的部分英文詞句由獨立委員會秘書處補充。 比喻,個問題都顯而易見嘅,所以喺「招標妥2.0」嘅時候,希望市建局都會就住 1 呢一方面有所嘅改變。 2 我哋都有作出咗十一項嘅建議嘅,係嘞,咁喺其中一項嘅建議,其實亦都同呢 3 個前法團或者鄧國權有相關,就係我哋都會建議呢,我諗大家--我直接啲講喇,呢 4 個火燒連環船都係好顯而易見,即係令到個大火係迅速蔓延嘅其中一個原因。所以 5 我哋見到就係呢,有啲證據呢,當時鄧國權已經同意任內係八座一齊搭建棚架,本 6 來其實係話可能分開兩期,就四座四座咁樣。其實專家--委員會嘅專家都有同樣嘅 7 一個建議喇,明顯地如果咁頻密地八座一齊咁樣去搭棚網係會影響嗰個--係會增加 8 火災風險嘅。 9 陸啟康法官:(English Spoken) 10 譚俊傑大律師:我哋嘅建議,我頭先講過嘅我唔重複嘞。我另外有一個建議呢,當然就係關 11 於授權票呢,我哋都建議呢,係應該要業主提供簽名式樣喇,同埋可能對於授權票- 12 -我明白,即係作出一個上限,起碼都會令到即係如果有人要去攞好多嘅授權票呢, 13 都有更加多嘅難處。 14 陸啟康法官:譚大律師,你講嗰啲建議就係你較早時交畀委員會嘅建議? 15 譚俊傑大律師:係,係。 16 陸啟康法官:你喺呢度冇再提嘅? 17 譚俊傑大律師:係,因為我已經喺之前... 18 陸啟康法官:唔明白。 19 譚俊傑大律師:...另外一份已交咗一啲嘅建議㗎嘞。 20 陸啟康法官:我哋睇下有冇辦法可以將你啲建議都擺上網咁樣。 21 譚俊傑大律師:好呀,唔該晒法官閣下,唔該晒主席。係,我相信最主要嘅嗰啲建議我都已 22 經講咗,可能最後一個就係要列明番個顧問公司同埋註冊檢驗人員嘅關係,因為實 23 際負責嘅係註冊檢驗人員,但係好多時居民知道嘅就只係嗰間顧問公司。所以呢一 24 方面,可能都應該喺--可能應該喺一啲合約條款都要寫番清楚,究竟個註冊檢驗人 25 員嘅身份喇。 26 主席,我諗我最後淨係想好簡單咁樣去總結番呢件事,大火喺11 月發生,由 27 3 月聽證會開始,其實當然唔係全部人我代表,但係有好多居民都係好強忍悲痛咁 28 出嚟畀口供。同埋其實我諗委員會都會留意到有一啲居民其實佢哋每日都嚟,係 29 呀,佢哋係好--即係我會覺得--我會相信係一件好痛苦嘅事,每一日都聽番個大火 30 點樣發生,佢哋有啲人親歷其境,有啲人屋企人親歷其境,每一日都聽番可能關於 31 屋企人過咗身嘅情況,呢啲全部都係一啲我係好難以想像嘅一啲痛嚟嘅,但係有陣 32 時喺個聽證會入面有一啲證人,唔係所有,有一啲證人我哋都聽到,好似淨係想推 33 卸個責任,係其他持份者嘅問題,唔係我嘅問題,所以有陣時我都明白點解佢哋會 34 忍唔住有一啲嘅怒火。同埋咁樣推卸責任對於委員會或者整個香港去尋找今次事件 35 嘅真相係冇幫助嘅。雖然我哋好悲憤,又冇咗屋企,但係我哋相信委員會係可以還 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第二十九天

6 本謄本由 Epiq 編製,於聽證會中使用的部分英文詞句由獨立委員會秘書處補充。 原真相,幫番啲受難者、死者一個公道,亦都期盼委員會會提供一啲嘅即係當然切 1 實可行嘅建議,令到即係其他各個持份者唔好再有咁多藉口,深刻反省,承擔以後 2 嘅責任。係,呢個就係我嘅結案陳詞,唔該晒。 3 陸啟康法官:唔該晒,譚大律師。我哋下一位係政府孫大律師,代表政府嘅孫御用大律師, 4 請孫大律師。 5

6 10 時26 分譚俊傑大律師代表宏褔苑居民結案陳詞完畢 7

8 10 時27 分靖乾資深大律師代表政府相關決策局與部門開始結案陳詞 9

10 孫靖乾資深大律師:主席、兩位委員,早晨,今日我係會代表政府同埋相關嘅決策局同部 11 門,就會進行口頭嘅總結嘅陳詞,我都會預計大約會用今日嘅時間喇,當然我哋會 12 有小休同埋有午休嘅時間。我哋其實之前亦都已經係按照委員會嘅指示係提交咗一 13 個好詳細嘅英文書面總結陳詞,我哋亦都準備咗一份中文嘅一個總結陳詞嘅綱要 14 喇,咁我哋都理解到喺今日嘅早上已經係上載到委員會嘅網頁,係可以令到即係相 15 關嘅人士同埋公眾去參考,所以我今日唔打算就係就每一個論點或者每一個細點都 16 去重複,咁我亦都好同意頭先譚大律師所講,就係希望即係委員會能夠即係還原真 17 相,我哋去審視即係各方喺呢一件事裏面所擔當嘅角色,然之後係令到--對居民、 18 對公眾係有一個交代。 19 咁基於以上嘅前提,我今日嘅陳詞主要就會分做係八個部分,第一個部分就係 20 一個嘅引言,包括就係政府嘅立場、委員會嘅調查精神同埋方向;第二個部分就係 21 宏福苑嘅背景同埋相關嘅監管制度同架構;第三個部分就係大火嘅起因,火勢蔓延 22 同埋造成重大傷亡嘅有六個嘅促成嘅因素;第四個部分亦都係同第三個部分係即係 23 緊緊相扣,就係相關嘅專業人士同埋其他嘅一啲嘅私營持份者嘅喺系統性方面嘅一 24 個機制嘅濫用;第五個部分,我哋會去睇一睇嗰個救火同埋救援工作嘅檢視;而第 25 六個部分,我哋都會睇一睇個規管架構裏面有啲乜嘢嘅弱點同埋可以改善嘅地方, 26 以及--亦都會去睇一睇政府已經推行或者係即將推行嘅一啲嘅改善措施;而第七個 27 部分亦都會係去講到一個職權範圍(二)嘅議題,而最後我會作一個比較簡短嘅總 28 結。 29 咁首先喺第一方--第一個部分方面,咁喺嗰個引言同埋政府嘅立場,我會分六 30 個方面就係同委員會有一個簡要嘅一個探討。第一個部分,就係關--第一方面就係 31 關於嗰個調查精神同埋政府嘅配合,其實我喺開場嘅陳詞嘅時候亦都有提到呢幾點 32 嘅,咁我喺度就想係再重溫一下。 33 第一個就係喺去年11 月嘅火災之後,好快喺12 月嘅時候,特首就係宣布成立 34 呢個獨立委員會,去徹查呢個宏福苑嘅大火,當時亦都有表明係一定要調查到底, 35 無論係涉及乜嘢人都係要一查到底,同埋追責到底,認真去改革,咁係希望真相可 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第二十九天

7 本謄本由 Epiq 編製,於聽證會中使用的部分英文詞句由獨立委員會秘書處補充。 以水落石出,令到公義得以伸張,讓逝者安息,讓生者係安心。 1 而政府嘅相關部門喺委員會工作啟動以嚟,一直係全力配合調查嘅工作,採取 2 全面嘅開誠佈公嘅態度,喺回答委員會嘅各項問題,同埋向委員會提交證據嘅時 3 候,無論情況,又或者證據係對有關嘅部門係有利定係不利,都係毫無隱瞞。而行 4 政長官喺2025 年12 月2 日嘅時候亦都宣布係成立咗三個跨政策局係專責小組去 5 處理今次嘅事件,咁我喺度好簡單地去講一講,第一個就係由政務司司長領導嘅調 6 查同埋規管工作組,係負責統籌同埋協調技術同埋規管層面嘅調查,包括成立跨部 7 門火警調查嘅專責小組,以及制訂改善嘅措施,去強化現有嘅規管制度。第二個係 8 由政務司副司長領導嘅緊急支援同埋募捐工作組,成立大埔宏福苑嘅援助基金,咁 9 包括係向每戶發放10,000 元應急津貼,實施一戶一社工模式,由專責社工協調福 10 利、服務、輔導同埋行政支援等等。而第三個係由財政司副司長領導嘅應急住宿安 11 排工作組,處理數以千計居民嘅臨時住宿,包括係青年旅舍、營地、酒店房間、過 12 渡性嘅房屋,又或者係房協提供嘅單位,而數以萬計嘅物資亦都已經係分發予受災 13 嘅居民。 14 事實上喺大火發生之後,特區政府亦都隨即係成立咗嗰個跨部門嘅調查專組, 15 召集各政府嘅相關部門,以及呢個獨立嘅專家,全速全面去徹查大火嘅起因,以及 16 迅速蔓延最後造成嚴重傷亡嘅原因,而調查專組經過數個月嚟嘅調查同埋其他嘅一 17 連串嘅實驗,亦都喺今年5 月完成咗最終嘅調查報告,同埋提交咗畀委員會,亦都 18 喺6 月份嘅時候係喺聽證嘅時候係作供嘅。 19 而再加上政府相關部門亦都係就回應委員會各項提問所提交嘅證人供詞同埋文 20 件證據,咁係分別有嚟自六個政府部門同埋專責小組,總共有31 名嘅證人係喺13 21 個聆訊日裏面係出庭作供,咁亦都有更多其他嘅證人係亦都有作出咗一啲嘅證人嘅 22 供詞,咁至今,委員會係共接獲超過100 萬份嘅文件,而數據嘅總量亦都超過2TB 23 嘅,所以呢度都可以見到政府喺協助委員會嘅工作上面,我哋都係盡力,不遺餘力 24 嘅。 25 毋庸置疑,今次嘅大火係令到政府同埋整個社會都係感到非常之沉痛,我哋喺 26 度係會再次向各受災嘅居民、佢哋嘅家屬,係致以最深切嘅慰問。同時亦都向呢一 27 個嘅殉職嘅消防隊目何偉豪先生及其家人致以最崇高嘅敬意。 28 咁喺第二個方面,我想講嘅就係關於一個公平、公正嘅調查。政府當然係非常 29 之明白,唔單只係受災者,社會各界都非常之希望委員會嘅調查可以係儘快係有呢 30 個結果,而特首一開始亦都話希望係喺九個月內係可以有一個嘅調查嘅報告,咁今 31 次其實嘅聽證會,我哋嗰個嘅進度亦都係即係非常之迅速嘅,我哋由今年3 月開 32 始,至到今--而家差唔多四個月,咁亦都係聽取咗好多唔同嘅證供,咁當然,傳媒 33 同埋其他人士對研訊嘅內容表達強烈嘅關注係可以理解嘅,但係主席亦都有喺聆訊 34 期間有多次表示過,係我哋係一定要對所有嘅涉事者係保持一個公道,既需要對受 35 害人公平,亦都需要對各涉事者係公平,而委員會以至社會各界係會--亦都需要保 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第二十九天

8 本謄本由 Epiq 編製,於聽證會中使用的部分英文詞句由獨立委員會秘書處補充。 持一個客觀、持平嘅態度,去認真咁審視各項嘅證據,嚴謹去處理各涉事方佢哋嘅 1 回應,去仔細分析佢哋喺事件中擔當嘅角色同埋責任。 2 咁嚟到而家嘅總結陳詞階段,我亦都相信社會同埋公眾係睇到委員會係致力確 3 保喺公平、公正以及公開嘅情況下,係客觀地完成呢個聽證嘅程序,我哋都相信同 4 埋係有信心委員會係會依據各項相關證據,就大火嘅起因、佢迅速蔓延嘅同埋造成 5 重大傷亡嘅各項嘅因由係作出一個裁決。 6 而第三方面,就係關於委員會決定唔轉做法定調查委員會嘅呢一件事,咁呢度 7 其實政府係都想表明個立場,就委員會決定不請求行政長官行使權力,就呢一次事 8 件成立一個法定嘅獨立調查委員會,呢個決定我哋係理解同埋尊重嘅。咁首先,即 9 使有部分嘅涉事者,尤其係譬如宏業同埋鴻毅,佢哋拒絕或者冇去參與聽證會嘅聆 10 訊同埋作供,但係委員會其實亦都可以從其他嘅涉事者所提供嘅資料同埋書面嘅供 11 詞,以及係呢一個嘅政府,或者係呢個獨立委員會嘅代表大律師,佢哋提交嘅好多 12 嘅資料裏面,係可以作出相關嘅事實嘅裁斷。 13 正如主席喺今年嘅聽證會6 月22 日嘅時候解釋,即使涉事方係放棄喺公眾面 14 前作出一個解釋同埋作供嘅機會,委員會係仍然可以根據已有嘅資料對佢哋去作出 15 一個嘅裁斷,甚至係一個不利嘅裁斷。換言之,證人拒絕或者選擇唔出席聽證會聆 16 訊作供,並不等於委員會唔可以係針對佢哋去作出一啲相應嘅判斷或者一個裁斷。 17 當然,與此同時,我哋亦留意到法庭以及其他嘅一啲嘅相關組織,係會按佢哋 18 既定嘅程序同埋適用嘅法律,無論喺民事定係刑事方面係發揮佢哋相應嘅職能。委 19 員會嘅調查同該等嘅法律程序係並行,兩者唔應該亦都唔會係發生一個衝突,各自 20 有唔同嘅目的同埋標準。而委員會嘅職能係在於查明火災嘅相關事實,識別制度上 21 面嘅弱點,提出改善建議。而其他相關法律程序就會按佢哋各自嘅舉證標準係去處 22 理佢哋相應嘅法律嘅責任。 23 此外,政府亦都理解,如果轉為法定調查委員會,會因為嗰個程序嘅複雜性或 24 者其他嘅程序嘅原因,係會延長咗成個時間表,會令到對公眾嚟講可能係要等候即 25 係甚至乎係--唔單只係數月,可能係數年嘅時間,亦都有可能係會影響緊正喺度進 26 行嘅刑事或者其他嘅民事嘅訴訟程序,所以而家現有嘅運作嘅模式其實除咗係更加 27 係時間上有一個彈性同埋靈活性之外,亦都有個開放性嘅。咁相關嘅議題,由於主 28 席之前已經係有做過一個詳細嘅解釋,咁我哋就唔會喺度再重複,我哋係會接納同 29 埋尊重嘅。 30 而第四個方面,我想去講一講就係關於一個直接責任同埋一個監管制度上面嘅 31 一個分野。政府希望大家係可以理解嘅一點,就係喺今次嘅聽證會裏面,政府相關 32 嘅部門積極咁樣去協助委員會同埋參與聽證會嘅聆訊,既提供咗大量嘅文件信息, 33 亦都透過好多唔同嘅部門嘅同事,係做咗證人嘅供詞同埋作證。由於聽證會主要參 34 與嘅係政府嘅相關部門,社會各界往往係會將嗰個焦點係放咗喺政府有關部門之 35 上,政府對此係理解嘅。但係如果因為咁樣樣,社會人士係忽略咗其他嘅涉事方, 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第二十九天

9 本謄本由 Epiq 編製,於聽證會中使用的部分英文詞句由獨立委員會秘書處補充。 包括一啲冇出席聽證會嘅涉事方嘅責任,甚至只係將嗰個焦點全部係聚焦或者係針 1 對政府嘅話,又或者認為有關部門係大火嘅始作俑者嘅話,則難免係會即係有所偏 2 頗,無論係對政府或者公眾利益,以至係對審視成個事件而言,呢種嘅觀感同埋睇 3 法係片面而唔公平。 4 恰恰相反,正正係因為宏業同埋鴻毅等主要嘅涉事方,佢哋選擇唔出席聽證會 5 嘅聆訊,而政府部門全力嘅配合,呢個對比本身其實亦都能夠說明咗個問題,負有 6 首要責任嘅一啲承建商或者係一啲其他嘅專業人士,佢哋選擇去沉默,選擇去迴 7 避,呢啲係委員會同埋公眾我哋希望都能夠理解嘅一個背景。 8 當然,政府並唔係要推卸其監管、監督層面上面嘅責任,呢一個我哋之前喺開 9 場陳詞嘅時候已經係好清楚咁樣表達,我哋只係想強調嘅係委員會以及社會各界唔 10 應該將事件裏面嘅一啲直接嘅責任同埋系統上、執行上嘅一啲嘅弱點係混為一談。 11 舉一個例子,有一啲嘅傳媒嘅報導,佢哋係將個火災嘅責任係完全係歸咎政府,係 12 認為係因為呢個政府嘅部門係最終釀成大禍。姑勿論呢一個咁嘅講法係咪事實,咁 13 樣樣嘅寫法就正正係將兩層嘅責任係完全混為一談,係將一啲系統上、執行上面嘅 14 弱點係將佢變成咗一個火警嘅直接嘅成因,呢個係不符事實,亦都係有欠公允。 15 咁我哋亦都係睇過、審閱過委員會代表嘅大律師嘅書面嘅結案陳詞,當然佢哋 16 係會對各涉事方都提出一啲唔少嘅觀點甚至係批判,但係我哋亦都留意到,似乎喺 17 佢哋嘅嗰個陳詞裏面就冇好明確係去釐清一個直接責任同埋監管責任嘅一個分野, 18 所以我哋就呢個機會就喺度係向公眾同埋向委員會係去澄清同強調。而呢一個分野 19 無論喺事實嘅證據、專家證據,其實我哋都可以係顯示得到,關於呢兩層嘅責任, 20 簡單嚟講,直接嘅責任就即係話導致到火災發生、蔓延同埋造成重大傷亡嘅一啲嘅 21 直接原因,呢啲最主要就係一啲嘅承建商,或者係一啲嘅專業人士,我哋叫做私營 22 嘅持份者佢哋嘅一啲違法、違規嘅行為。而另一個就係監管制度上面嘅弱點,雖然 23 係令到呢啲嘅相關私營嘅持份者係違法、違規嘅行為未有被及時發現嘅一個因素, 24 但係並唔能夠係等同於導致火災嘅一個直接嘅原因。 25 而相關地,政府亦都希望就委員會法律團隊總結陳詞針對政府相關部門嘅整體 26 分析方向就係講幾句。政府注意到委員會大律師嘅分析,相當程度上係以一個事後 27 嘅角度去審視各政府部門喺大火前嘅行動同決定,政府理解呢一種嘅方法,或者呢 28 種嘅分析係其中一種對委員會職權範圍所需要審視嘅問題嘅處理方式,亦都留意到 29 委員會法律團隊嘅相關嘅分析嘅,政府自身嘅書面陳詞亦都已經指出咗好多嘅改善 30 空間,我哋亦都會喺後續嘅時間係進一步就呢一方面係作出陳詞。 31 但係與此同時,我哋希望委員會作出裁斷嘅時候可以考慮以下幾點,第一,如 32 果以事後嘅結果去評價事前嘅制度同決定係需要謹慎嘅,我哋係需要明白,所有嘅 33 制度嘅決定其實都係建基於一個風險同埋一個資源之間嘅一個平衡。正如主席亦都 34 喺聆訊裏面係觀察過,即使有最完善嘅法規,其實仍然可能會發生一啲嘅事故。而 35 喺大火之前,相關嘅制度同埋設計,同埋佢嘅執行,其實都係基於當時嚟講社會嘅 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第二十九天

10 本謄本由 Epiq 編製,於聽證會中使用的部分英文詞句由獨立委員會秘書處補充。 一啲嘅認知、資源同埋共識,呢個制度喺大多數嘅情況下係有效運作嘅。而宏福苑 1 出現嘅問題或者嘅情況,非常重要嘅背景就係喺制度之下出現咗一啲嘅極端或者係 2 異常嘅情況,亦即係話多個獲委以一啲法定,係法定嘅責任嘅一啲專業人士同埋承 3 建商,當中亦都包括係去監察一啲承建商嘅一啲嘅專業人士,佢哋有蓄意或者係佢 4 哋一啲嘅忽略、違法、合謀、欺詐等等嘅行為,所以呢個亦都係令到我哋而家去審 5 視番成個制度嘅時候,發覺佢有啲咩嘢地方係有弱點嘅其中一個重要嘅背景。 6 或者我舉一個例去解釋下,譬如我哋而家知道喺最新嘅,我哋叫PNRC85,亦 7 即係話嗰個註冊承建商嘅作業備考85,就係規定咗,喺大火之後,有關嘅註冊承建 8 商係需要對嗰個棚網係進行一個採樣,同埋係要做一個驗證,所以喺棚網採購同埋 9 上架之前嘅準備方面嘅時間,或者嗰個價格、成本等等係會有相應嘅增加嘅,呢個 10 亦都係大火之後社會同埋大眾對建築專業人士同埋承建商失去信心之下,大家嘅共 11 識所作出嘅一個決定。 12 試想想如果我哋回到嗰個制度設計嘅初期,當時社會同大眾仍然認為建築專業 13 人士同埋承建商佢哋係可以係信賴,如果當時係實行好似而家呢個作業備考85 比 14 較嚴格嘅規定,係有可能係會引來業界或者係社會嘅一啲嘅質疑或者反響,因為最 15 終嗰個成本亦都可能會轉嫁畀呢個業主。 16 故此,委員會喺--嘅大律師喺結案陳詞嘅第859 段裏面嘅其中一啲嘅說法, 17 包括就係呢個承建商或者係其他嘅專業人士,佢哋嘅欺詐行為之所以得逞,其實係 18 因為呢個監管機構自身嘅做法令到佢哋變成可能,呢個我哋覺得係可能有欠公允, 19 因為欺詐嘅本質正正就係繞過同埋穿透整個制度而行,而我稍候亦都會再係返番去 20 呢個觀點作進一步嘅陳詞。 21 第二,政府喺大火之後推行嘅各項嘅改善措施,反映嘅係我哋所有嘅人,政 22 府、業界、社會、市民係共同希望建立一個更加完善嘅系統嘅一個意願,呢啲嘅改 23 善措施唔應該簡單直接被理解為等同於係大火前嘅所有嘅做法或者制度,本身係有 24 失誤或者失責,任何制度喺面對重大事件之後當然係需要係檢討同埋去改進,呢個 25 亦都係負責任嘅管治嘅應有嘅態度。而正如委員會法律團隊喺佢哋嘅書面嘅總結陳 26 詞第30 至第31 段裏面,佢哋都認同尤其係針對一啲嘅救火、救援嘅工作嘅分析, 27 佢哋嘅目的係為咗我哋嘅未來去汲取嗰個教訓,英文佢哋個講法係話“(English 28 Spoken)”,而唔係去否定一啲嘅前線人員佢哋嘅努力。我哋認為委員會亦都可 29 以以一個相類似嘅邏輯去審視譬如政府部門或者喺制度上面嘅種種嘅弱點嘅地方。 30 第三,委員會法律團隊嘅書面總結陳詞喺佢哋嘅第13 段亦都有形容到,大火 31 係各方面都有直接嘅一啲嘅促成因素,亦都有提到一啲嘅所謂系統性嘅失效,佢哋 32 尤其係點名去批評就係宏業、鴻毅、註冊嘅檢驗人員即係吳躍先生、中華發展、宏 33 泰、置邦。政府係尊重委員會法律團隊嘅分析,不過喺度係我希望再次係去強調, 34 係委員會係要留意去區分兩類截然不同嘅因素,就係頭先我講嘅直接導致火災發 35 生、蔓延同造成傷亡嘅行為,亦即係話承建商以及專業人士嘅一啲蓄意違法行為, 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第二十九天

11 本謄本由 Epiq 編製,於聽證會中使用的部分英文詞句由獨立委員會秘書處補充。 而另一個就係出於未能夠及時發現該等違法行為嘅監管改善空間,兩者當然係同時 1 亦都係值得去檢視,但係性質同埋嚴重程度係有一個根本上嘅分野,佢哋嘅責任亦 2 都唔應該係被放喺同一個天秤上面。 3 而正如委員會大律師喺結案陳詞嘅680 段裏面所指出,關於一啲嘅承建商,以 4 及一啲私人嘅涉事方,佢哋嘅違法同埋欺詐嘅行為,係理應受到獨立委員會最強烈 5 嘅譴責,而佢哋英文裏面係咁講,就話“(English Spoken)”。 6 第五個方面,我亦都會想簡單地講講嗰個相關制度嘅設計嘅背景嘅。咁呢度, 7 首先我就係要特別針對嗰個制度嘅一個政策原意同埋嘅設計,係去作出一個簡單嘅 8 陳述。咁總共係分三點,第一,有關嘅規管嘅制度其實佢哋係源於好多年前嘅一啲 9 嘅政策嘅發展。舉個例,消防處嘅一啲火警安全嘅政策其實可能早喺1960 年代開 10 始已經發展,屋宇署以及呢個嘅ICU,亦即係話呢個獨立審查組,佢哋嘅授權安排 11 其實係1992 年開始到而家,已經係沿用咗超過三十年。呢啲嘅制度大部分係經過 12 當時嘅立法機關係去仔細去審議,亦都係經歷過多年嘅發展同埋係調整,佢哋係反 13 映咗當時社會各界以至係立法機關,對於喺規管、監督同埋專業自治之間,所取得 14 嘅一個適當嘅平衡嘅一個共識。 15 第二樣嘢就係政府就不同嘅範圍嘅管理同埋監督,喺唔同嘅政策局同埋政府部 16 門之間係有一個--作出一個分工,呢樣嘢本身並唔係有一啲不妥嘅地方,正如我喺 17 開場陳詞裏面所講,問題其實並唔係需唔需要或者應唔應該有分工,係點樣樣可以 18 令到呢個分工係做得更好、更全面同埋係更具彈性,就唔好僵化,令到政府嘅唔同 19 部門係可以各施其職,互補不足。呢個亦都係世界各地跨部門分工嘅正常嘅行政運 20 作,對提升效率係可以話係理所當然或者係實屬必需嘅。 21 第三樣嘢就係嗰個相關制度嗰個核心嘅設計,其實係將嗰個工程安全同埋質素 22 嘅首要責任,明確咁施加咗喺一啲嘅註冊嘅專業人士同埋承建商嘅身上,呢個係基 23 於當時嚟講一個合理嘅前提,就係話呢啲嘅專業人士佢哋係唔單只具備專業嘅知 24 識,佢哋亦都係有同埋應該有一個專業嘅操守,係受到相關嘅專業操守嘅守則係約 25 束嘅,佢哋無論係佢哋嘅資歷,以至係聲譽亦都受到制約,亦都係因此係可以被合 26 理期望同埋倚賴佢哋去遵守相關法律同埋規管嘅要求,呢個前提喺絕大多數嘅情況 27 下係有效嘅。而事實上,政府喺制訂政策嘅時候,亦都冇理由係假設相關嘅持份者 28 係會蓄意去違法或者濫用個制度。 29 而如果用一個數字嚟講,舉一個例,關於呢個小型工程嘅監管制度,自從實施 30 以嚟,每年所處理嘅小型工程由最初大約係35,000 宗,係增加到現時係大約係 31 15 萬宗,即係每一年,呢個增長本身亦都係反映出呢個制度由起初實施以嚟,係獲 32 得業界以至係社會公眾人士佢哋廣泛嘅接受同埋使用。 33 喺絕大多數嘅情況下,呢一個制度係行之有效,佢哋嘅運作係正常嘅。問題係 34 在於喺一啲情況之下,面對蓄意合謀同埋有組織嘅欺騙,就會暴露出呢個制度信任 35 同埋依賴相關專業人士,同埋其他嘅一啲嘅承建商等等嘅一個弱點。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第二十九天

12 本謄本由 Epiq 編製,於聽證會中使用的部分英文詞句由獨立委員會秘書處補充。 我喺度亦都再次強調,呢啲制度以及操作層面方面嘅弱點本身,唔應該被等同 1 於火災嘅直接成因,而委員會法律團隊喺佢嘅書面嘅總結陳詞亦都有指出,政府各 2 項制度信任同埋倚賴相關專業人士同埋其他嘅非政府方,係令到專業人士同埋其他 3 嘅非政府方合謀瞞騙政府成功嘅原因,政府理解呢一個觀點背後嘅關注,但係都希 4 望委員會係去考慮,正如我頭先都講過,任何嘅規管制度喺某程度上都係建基於對 5 受規管者嘅一個合理嘅信賴,如果制度嘅設計前設係假定所有嘅專業人士都會違 6 規,唔會受到專業操守所約束嘅時候,咁嗰個制度喺設計、邏輯同埋個執行上面將 7 會係完全唔同,而呢個亦都係當年社會各界喺討論同埋制訂相關政策嘅時候嘅期望 8 同埋方向,佢哋嗰個制度設計係考慮過多方面嘅因素,以及從中去取得一個適當嘅 9 平衡。 10 況且亦都正如獨立委員會嘅專家亦都指出有關嘅重點往往並唔係樣樣嘢或者每 11 一樣嘢都去依賴一個政府干預同埋規管,而係註冊專業人士同埋承建商嘅自覺、自 12 律,係務求令到佢哋喺每個工程施工之前都進行一個適當嘅風險評估,係希望唔會 13 或者係可以避免只求表面上係符合晒有關嘅規定,但係係妄顧咗一啲其他嘅安全風 14 險嘅評估,而導致事故係發生嘅。換言之,如果只係憑一個規管,而係好似一個即 15 係我哋叫做一個清單,係去睇下表面上係咪滿足嘅話,咁呢個其實亦都唔一定係可 16 以係杜絕事故再次發生,因為每一次可能都會有一個唔同嘅情況。 17 頭先我亦都講過,就係委員會嘅法律團隊對於政府部門之間嘅分工係作出一啲 18 批評,包括有啲係涉及到部門對有關嘅監管框架、法律條文嘅演繹同埋理解,亦都 19 有一啲係涉及到部門將收到嘅投訴或者查詢轉介到其他嘅政府部門等等。我同意各 20 相關部門係可以做得更好,頭先譚大律師亦都有講過而家一啲嘅政府嘅做法、改善 21 措施,咁不過重申嘅係呢個都唔能夠抹殺就係話部門分工係佢嘅一個重要性,咁呢 22 度我喺稍後係會進一步去闡述嘅。 23 第六方面,就係政府已經推行嘅一啲改善措施。政府經整合大火之後所採取嘅 24 改善措施之後,亦都喺今年嘅6 月15 號係向委員會提交咗一個詳細列出已採取或 25 者即將採取嘅改善措施嘅。而值得留意嘅就係當中有唔少喺聆訊期間被提及或者建 26 議,或者係正喺度研究嘅改善措施,其實係喺我哋6 月15 號提交嘅嗰個列表裏面 27 已經係落實咗。政府嘅態度可以話係爭分奪秒,我哋並唔係等候委員會最後報告先 28 至去採取呢啲嘅改善措施,而係可以做到嘅就儘快去做。而亦都可以舉例,就大火 29 凸顯出嘅一啲工地吸煙嘅問題,勞工及福利局喺大火之後好快就已經係提出咗一啲 30 修改法例嘅建議,之後亦都全速去進行呢個工地禁煙嘅相關法律嘅修訂工作,有關 31 嘅工作亦都趕及喺立法會暑假休會之前完全審議,相關修訂其實已經係由立法會喺 32 昨日係通過,而工地禁煙係會喺7 月17 日,亦即係話聽日就會係正式生效。 33 當然,喺委員會完成同埋發表調查報告之後,政府亦都必定會仔細去研究報告 34 中所列嘅各項建議,詳加考慮係咪有需要去研究同埋推出進一步嘅改善措施,特別 35 係一啲好可能會對日後一啲嘅工程成本、施工嘅時間,或者其他實際上嘅考慮帶來 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第二十九天

13 本謄本由 Epiq 編製,於聽證會中使用的部分英文詞句由獨立委員會秘書處補充。 一啲影響嘅建議,政府係會同業界同埋其他嘅持份者作出一個適當嘅諮詢,尋求共 1 識嘅。 2 之後我就嚟到第二個部分,咁可能我第二個部分,之後我哋就可以有個小休 3 嘅。 4 第二部分就係關於呢個宏福苑同埋大火嘅背景,同埋相關監管嘅制度。當然, 5 我理解到之前喺開場嘅陳詞,無論係代表政府或者係獨立委員會代表大律師亦都已 6 經有相當嘅討論,但係為咗便利公眾嘅理解,同埋等到我哋係有一個比較清楚嘅背 7 景,咁我都希望喺呢度作出一個扼要嘅陳述。 8 宏福苑就係位於新界大埔一個居屋嘅屋苑,總共有八棟喺1983 年落成嘅住宅 9 大廈,樓高31 層,共有1,984 個單位,而根據2021 年人口普查嘅數據,大約係 10 有4,600 名嘅居民,當中有超過三分之一係年齡係喺65 歲或者以上,呢個人口結 11 構亦都係對居民喺應對火警同埋疏散嘅速度其實係有相當嘅影響,我哋喺專家報告 12 裏面亦都睇得到嘅。 13 而大廈裏面嘅設計其中一個關鍵嘅特徵就係喺兩翼之間嘅一啲垂直嘅「內 14 角」,我哋英文叫做“(English Spoken)",又或者係「光井」,由1 樓延 15 伸至到嗰個天台。委員會聽取咗嘅專家證據係發現呢個好似煙囪咁樣嘅結構係會引 16 導咗一啲上升嘅煙、熱氣,令到佢哋嘅上升活動集中同埋去導引,而最後令到嗰個 17 火勢係能夠咁迅速去蔓延,同埋喺短時間內係波及多個樓層。 18 大火發生嘅時候,宏福苑八棟大廈正進行緊呢個外牆維修,以及翻新嘅工程, 19 大廈係由地面至到上層都係被竹棚同埋保護網去包圍,工程係喺2024 年7 月展 20 開,合約嘅造價係3.36 億港元。而宏福苑係由呢個ICU,亦即係獨立審查組,係 21 喺屋宇署署長嘅授權之下,係進行《建築物條例》下面嘅一啲法定監管,呢度可能 22 有三點我係呢度簡單係去重申嘅。 23 第一點,就係呢個授權其實係由來已久,總共有超過三十年嘅歷史。剛才亦都 24 講過係早喺1992 嘅時候,其實屋宇署已經係將出售居屋屋苑嘅建築物管制權係授 25 予咗呢個房屋署嘅相關人員行使。至到2000 年嘅時候,呢個ICU 就正式成立,而 26 2004 年開始,有關嘅建築物管制嘅授權就轉咗係指定由ICU 嘅人員去行使,而 27 ICU 而家都係直接向房屋局嘅常任秘書長去匯報,以確保佢嘅獨立性,咁所以呢個 28 係歷史上係有超過三十年。 29 第二個,就係喺嗰個授權範圍方面,其實ICU 佢哋喺獲授權嘅範圍裏面,所行 30 使嘅權力係同屋宇署係完全一樣嘅,亦都係話包括譬如處理一啲建築圖則、結構嘅 31 圖則提交,同意申請,實施強制驗樓嘅計劃、小型工程監管制度等等,佢哋都係行 32 使緊平衡同埋相同嘅權力。除咗係喺《建築物條例》第40 條下嘅一啲檢控嘅權 33 力,以及第7,以及第13 條下面嘅一啲紀律處分嘅權力就沒有授予畀ICU,而仍 34 然係由呢個屋宇署去行使嘅。當然如果係ICU 係識別到有任何違規係會進行呢個調 35 查,並將一啲相關嘅個案轉介畀屋宇署考慮進行呢個檢控同埋紀律處分。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第二十九天

14 本謄本由 Epiq 編製,於聽證會中使用的部分英文詞句由獨立委員會秘書處補充。 第三樣嘢,就係屋宇署同ICU 之間係有一個恒常嘅溝通嘅機制,包括係每半年 1 向屋宇署提供一啲嘅進度報告,同埋舉行一啲管理層聯絡嘅會議,而每一個工作層 2 面嘅相對應嘅小組之間亦都係有一個聯絡嘅會議,以及屋宇署係會向ICU 借調3 名 3 高級專業人員去提供一個指導,呢啲嘅借調嘅人員喺ICU 裏面就係擔任一啲橋樑嘅 4 角色,去協助佢哋去詮釋《建築物條例》嘅條文,以及立法要求,同埋傳達一啲屋 5 宇署嘅指引,以確保ICU 維持嘅審查標準係同呢個屋宇署一致嘅。所以基於頭先我 6 所講嘅一啲嘅歷史嘅安排,佢哋行使權力上嘅一致,以至話係佢哋嘅嗰個恒常嘅溝 7 通嘅機制去確保佢哋嘅審查標準嘅一致,所以如果ICU 係去跟隨屋宇署嘅做法,本 8 身呢樣嘢其實係並冇不妥,實際上係應該去咁樣做嘅。 9 所以我亦都希望委員會係喺呢一個嘅歷史背景之下,去考慮委員會大律師佢哋 10 喺結案陳詞第884 段就呢個ICU 所作出嘅批評。委員會嘅法律團隊佢哋一邊廂喺 11 結案陳詞第884 段係批評ICU 係盲目去跟隨呢一個屋宇署嘅做法,佢哋喺盤問時 12 候所用嘅字眼就係話係「依書直說」嘅,但係另一邊廂佢哋喺第903 至928 段裏 13 面,又批評呢個ICU 係未有去跟隨屋宇署嘅做法,即係咁樣講其實某程度上即係好 14 似係有一啲嘅雙重標準,所以頭先我解釋就係話基於個歷史背景,大家行使權力嘅 15 一致,其實佢哋係應該係維持一個相同嘅審查標準。 16 跟住我要講嘅就係宏福苑係喺2014 年就係被選定為「強制驗樓計劃」嘅目標 17 樓宇,2019 年嘅1 月,鴻毅係獲委任做檢驗嘅顧問。其後,由呢個2024 年開 18 始,維修嘅工程主要係依據小型工程嘅監管制度去進行,毋須事先係取得呢個建築 19 事務監督嘅批准。呢度當中係牽涉咗有兩個嘅制度,一個就係小型工程嘅監管制 20 度,另外一個就係嗰個強制驗樓嘅計劃,而呢兩個制度嘅共同特點就係佢哋都係經 21 過立法會詳細嘅審議同埋仔細嘅討論。小型工程就係2010 年,強制驗樓計劃就係 22 2012 年,所以亦都係基於一個深思熟慮嘅政策判斷,亦即係話喺規管、監督同埋 23 專業自治之間,當時立法會或者係社會亦都係佢哋有個共識去取得一個適當嘅平 24 衡。而呢個依賴專業人士自我規管嘅制度係一個經過考量嘅政策規定,喺業界、立 25 法會同公眾持續要求簡化規管程序,降低合規成本嘅背景下面作出嘅。呢啲決定係 26 基於一個當時被認為合理嘅前提,亦即係話受註冊制度約束嘅專業人士一般係會按 27 照佢哋嘅專業操守行事,而審查、抽查同紀律嘅機制係可以作為足夠嘅保障。 28 我喺政府嘅開場陳詞已經係詳細咁解釋過小型工程監管制度嘅背景同埋原意, 29 我喺呢度唔會再重複。簡單嚟講嚟,佢哋都係為一啲性質比較相對地簡單嘅工程係 30 提供一個簡化嘅法定嘅程序,而制度嘅核心就係側重於業界自律同埋專業人士嘅監 31 管,減免政府直接介入,呢個制度嘅設計係符合當時社會各界嘅廣泛共識。而喺呢 32 個小型工程監管制度推出之前,當時嘅法例,亦即係話《建築物條例》下面樓宇嘅 33 管制制度係適用於所有嘅建築工程,不論佢哋嘅複雜程度。而正如當年係向立法會 34 所解釋,去遵從呢啲嘅要求所涉嘅費用同埋時間,好多時係同工程唔成比例,亦都 35 係因為咁樣,令到有好多嘅小型建築工程係冇去遵守到《建築物條例》嘅情況下面 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第二十九天

15 本謄本由 Epiq 編製,於聽證會中使用的部分英文詞句由獨立委員會秘書處補充。 進行,而成為咗一啲違例嘅建築工程,呢個係一個有法不依嘅現實嘅問題,往往並 1 唔係因為業主存心去違法,而係因為監管嘅門檻同工程唔成正比,所以先至導致一 2 個有法不依嘅現實嘅情況。 3 咁喺小型工程監管制度2010 年年底全面實施,就正正係為咗便利市民合法地 4 喺私人樓宇進行小型工程,透過簡化嘅程序去改善香港嘅樓宇安全。正如我頭先所 5 講,呢個制度嘅核心思路係透過倚賴註冊專業人士嘅監管,去替代政府嘅一啲事前 6 嘅審批,當時嘅睇法係能夠平衡公眾利益,亦都能夠回應業界嘅訴求。 7 同樣地,強制驗樓計劃喺2012 年全面實施,背景亦都係樓宇失修一直係香港 8 嘅長期問題,缺乏適當保養、維修嘅老化樓宇,對住客、對公眾都構成一啲潛在嘅 9 危險同威脅,制度嘅目的係確保業主承擔保持樓宇良好狀況嘅責任,包括承擔財政 10 上嘅負擔,而呢個制度亦都係同樣係倚賴註冊專業人士進行檢驗同埋監督呢個維修 11 嘅工程。 12 主席、兩位委員,咁喺交代咗嗰個制度背景,而去進入討論我頭先所講第三部 13 分,即係話有六個促成火災嘅因素之前,我亦都想喺呢度係簡單咁去講一講各個持 14 份者嘅角色。呢啲喺我哋政府嘅書面總結陳詞F 嘅部分,我哋係有詳細去交代,喺 15 度我只會係概括性咁樣去講嘅。 16 核心嘅一點就係喺每一個相關嘅範疇,其實嗰個首要責任係落咗喺獲業主委聘 17 以及信賴嘅一啲專業人士同埋承建商身上,政府嘅角色係促進或者係一個監督嘅性 18 質,都係呢一個我哋話第二層嘅一個角色,而呢個係制度設計嘅根本邏輯。舉例嚟 19 講有四方面,第一個方面,小型工程嘅監管制度下面,註冊承建商係負有法定首要 20 責任,去確保工程安全同埋物料係合規嘅。第二方面,喺強制驗樓計劃下面,就係 21 呢個註冊嘅檢驗人員係負有法定責任去監督工程同埋確保物料係符合所有相關法例 22 嘅要求。第三個方面,註冊嘅消防裝置承辦商亦都係負有法定責任去維護消防裝 23 置。而第四個方面,物業管理公司係根據物業管理嘅服務條例以及相關嘅守則,亦 24 都有責任協助業主,以及業主嘅立案法團去確保消防裝置保持有效運作,包括係監 25 察一啲消註冊防裝置承辦商嘅工作進度,跟進維修事宜及保存相關文件,就消防裝 26 置維修同埋關閉嘅事宜都係負有一啲監管上面責任。 27 呢度我亦都想就頭先所講嘅一啲持份者嘅角色再作一啲補充,我就會想分為五 28 個方面。第一個,就消防風險嘅管理同埋消防裝置嘅維護方面嚟講,其實嗰個監管 29 架構可以大約大致上係分為我哋所講被動式嘅消防安全措施,以及主動式消防安全 30 措施。被動式消防安全措施即係包括譬如一啲嘅逃生嘅通道、防火嘅間隔、防煙 31 門、防火結構嘅設計、建造等等,主要係由屋宇署或者係ICU(即獨立審查組)負 32 責去規管。而主動式嘅消防安全嘅措施,亦即係消防嘅警報系統,即係警鐘、消防 33 栓、喉轆系統、灑水系統等等,主要係由消防處去負責規管。呢個並唔係政府部門 34 之間一個推卸責任,而反之呢個分工其實反映番唔同嘅政府部門佢哋有唔同嘅專業 35 嘅範疇,確保由最具相關專業知識嘅部門去處理番相應嘅事宜,而呢個分工係有彈 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第二十九天

16 本謄本由 Epiq 編製,於聽證會中使用的部分英文詞句由獨立委員會秘書處補充。 性,唔係僵化嘅。 1 而正如消防處處長喺作供嘅時候亦都確認,消防處嘅法定權力當然亦都並不限 2 於主動式嘅消防裝置,根據《消防條例》第7(c)條,消防處係有手責任係就消防 3 措施同埋火警危險因素係提供意見嘅。 4 第二方面,就消防裝置嘅擁有權同埋保養責任嚟講,根據《消防(裝置及設 5 備)規例》第8 條,消防裝置嘅擁有人係有法定嘅責任時刻去保持嗰個裝置處於有 6 效運作嘅狀態,呢個擁有人亦即係話相關嘅業主、業主立案法團,佢哋亦都需要安 7 排註冊嘅消防裝置承辦商至少每十二個月係檢驗一次,咁個法定嘅責任頭先所講, 8 就係落咗喺業主身上,而物業管理公司根據物業管理服務管理局嘅守則係有責任去 9 監督承辦商嘅工作進度,跟進一啲缺陷嘅維修、修復,跟進消防承辦商係咪已經向 10 消防處通報任何消防裝置嘅停用,以及喺消防人員到場嘅時候係提供一個協助。 11 第三方面,就呢個監察樓宇消防裝置同埋設備方面,消防處採取嘅策略係喺當 12 時嚟講,係優先處理一啲未有進行周年嘅檢查,即係年檢;又或者已經知道有消防 13 裝置損壞,但係完全沒有一啲註冊嘅消防裝置承辦商去跟進嘅樓宇,因為呢啲嘅樓 14 宇佢哋嘅相對嗰個風險係較高。至於有註冊消防裝置承辦商去跟進檢查、維修同埋 15 保養嘅樓宇,消防處認為其風險相對地理應較低,原因係承辦商係理應履行其專業 16 及法定嘅責任,倘若發現有任何嘅問題,亦都應該按既定嘅機制作一出一個通報同 17 埋處理。換言之,喺當時嘅制度下面,消防處係倚賴註冊消防裝置承辦商以及物業 18 管理公司各自履行其專業及法定責任,作為監管機制嘅一部分。然而,喺宏福苑嘅 19 個案嚟講,有關嘅承辦商同埋物業公司並冇充分去履行佢哋嘅責任,令到宏福苑實 20 際上係處於一個消防裝置失效嘅狀態而未被發現。 21 第四,就一啲施工嘅方法以及一啲物料嘅規管嚟講,《建築物(建造)規例》 22 第3 條,係要求所有用喺建築工程嘅物料係需要適合佢嘅用途同埋品質同埋品質, 23 並需要經過認可嘅測試,充分去檢驗。而第16 條亦都要求喺進行建築工程嘅時 24 候,係要採用適當嘅建造方法同埋程序,並且係需要採取適當嘅預防嘅措施,呢啲 25 係具有一般適用性嘅條文,亦都適用喺建築工程裏面使用嘅物料。而喺《建築物條 26 例》第30D 條之下,受委任嘅註冊檢驗人員係負有法定嘅責任去確保維修物料並非 27 欠妥,並且係符合所有相關條例嘅要求。 28 第五,就係關於一啲嘅所謂職業安全同埋健康,勞工處嘅首要職責就係保障僱 29 員或者係工人嘅職業安全同埋健康,佢哋嘅專業範疇係在於職業安全,包括高空工 30 作墮落嘅風險、棚架安全、安全帶嘅使用等等,咁勞工處亦都係會進行相關嘅巡 31 查。 32 而頭先我所講嘅以上五個方面制度框架同埋核心嘅邏輯,就係政府會去設定一 33 啲相應嘅標準,維持番一啲註冊名冊,亦都會進行一啲審核嘅抽查以及巡查,處理 34 投訴同埋查詢,並且喺發現有違規嘅時候去採取執法嘅行動。首要嘅責任包括確保 35 工程安全、物料合規、消防裝置有效運作,喺法律上喺明確咁施加喺獲業主委聘嘅 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第二十九天

17 本謄本由 Epiq 編製,於聽證會中使用的部分英文詞句由獨立委員會秘書處補充。 專業人士同承建商身上,呢個亦都係當時相關法例嘅共同設計邏輯。 1 而喺呢一個背景之下,我亦都想講一講,就係喺宏福苑大火之前,2023 年係 2 有一個海員俱樂部嘅大火以及2025 年10 月華懋大火,佢哋都涉及到一啲嘅棚架 3 高層建築物嘅起火,而當時政府亦都係以相同嘅一個制度或者制度嘅邏輯係採取咗 4 一啲嘅措施。譬如喺海員俱樂部大火之後,屋宇署喺2023 年3 月21 日係向所有 5 嘅認可人士,亦即係(English Spoken),咁認可人士即係包括可能係一啲嘅 6 建築師,或者係結構工程師等等,以及一啲註冊嘅承建商係發出咗一個通告嘅函 7 件,明確咁要求佢哋要安裝喺建築物外牆嘅保護網、保護膜、防水油布或者係一啲 8 塑膠嘅帆布,都係需要具有符合認可標準嘅阻燃性質。並且亦都列出咗三個認可標 9 準例子,包括我哋所謂叫國標,即係呢個GB 5725/2009 年,亦都有一啲嘅譬如 10 話係英國嘅標準,BS 5867 跟住係2008 嘅2,以及呢個NFPA 701-2019 年。 11 而消防處亦都係喺2024 年3 月係發出咗個通函,引入咗樓高30 米或以上,喺建 12 高層建築物時候嘅一啲消防保護措施修訂嘅要求。 13 2025 年10 月18 日華懋大廈大火之後,同樣地屋宇署亦都係喺10 月21 日 14 係發出咗進一步嘅通告函件,亦都係要求番認可人士註冊嘅承辦商去即時採取行 15 動,去巡查同埋確認佢哋負責嘅工程中嘅外牆保護物料嘅阻燃性能。而ICU(即獨 16 立審查組)亦都係主動係喺10 月23 號,以及10 月27 號係向當時有五個正在進 17 行維修工程嘅屋苑,包括係宏福苑嘅註冊檢驗人員去發出一啲提醒嘅電郵,提醒佢 18 哋係要確保棚網嘅狀況良好,以及個阻燃性能係要完全去符合呢個法定嘅要求。而 19 ICU 嘅同事亦都喺10 月28 號係去到宏福苑進行呢個巡查,去對棚網係進行進一 20 步嘅快速燃燒嘅測試。呢啲嘅事件無論係一啲通告提醒或者巡查,都係可以體驗到 21 當時個制度下面,係將相關嘅責任係亦都會係好明確咁樣樣,係會針對呢個相關嘅 22 承建商同埋專業人士,而且係透過通函、通告提醒巡查,係去加強番監管嘅關注程 23 度,令到大家嘅安全意識係相應去提升。 24 所以喺呢度,我可能喺我哋有個早休之前,就我第二部分就係想講嘅,就係話 25 政府希望委員會法律團隊書面陳詞裏面嘅一點觀點,我希望係好簡要咁去澄清,就 26 係話佢哋喺第859 段同885 段裏面係關於佢哋就係話,其實有關嘅欺詐行為佢哋 27 之所以成功,就係因為呢一個嘅(English Spoken )嘅(English 28 Spoken),亦即係話關於呢個規管嘅機構係令到佢哋能夠咁樣做,咁呢個其實我 29 哋認為咁樣講法係有欠公允,就係頭先我所講。 30 咁喺呢度我建議我哋有個小休,然之後我會繼續餘下嘅部分。 31 陸啟康法官:唔該晒你。咁我哋而家小休十五分鐘。 32

33 11 時24 分聽證會押後 34 11 時39 分聽證會恢復 35

36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第二十九天

18 本謄本由 Epiq 編製,於聽證會中使用的部分英文詞句由獨立委員會秘書處補充。 陸啟康法官:係,孫大律師。 1 孫靖乾資深大律師:係,主席同兩位委員,咁我而家就會進入第三部分,亦都我哋認為係一 2 個核心嘅部分,就係關於大火起因、火勢蔓延同埋造成呢個重大傷亡有六個促成嘅 3 因素。不過,喺講到嗰六個嘅促成因素之前,我係會想就嗰個火警係有少少嘅背景 4 係會想補充先。其實個跨部門嘅專責小組,之前我頭先提過,就係由政府相關部 5 門,包括消防處、警務處、屋宇署、機電工程署、ICU、勞工處、政府化驗所,以 6 及呢個袁國傑嘅教授係組成,而佢哋嘅調查方法係非常之嚴謹。正如佢哋喺作供嘅 7 時候亦都有講過,嗰個專責小組其實係參照咗一個國際嘅標準,係包括咗呢個美國 8 國家消防協會嘅NFPA 921 火警及爆炸調查嘅指南,亦都有其他嘅一啲國家標準係 9 進行呢個調查。佢哋所收集到嘅樣本係提交畀一啲認可嘅實驗室係進行一個化學嘅 10 分析、物料嘅測試同埋有一啲係燃燒特性嘅測試,同時佢哋亦都係做咗一個,我哋 11 叫做一個檯面嘅實驗,有一啲電腦嘅流體力學嘅模擬,亦都係喺呢個四川係進行咗 12 一個全尺寸實體嘅火災測試。四川嗰個全尺寸嘅火災測試其實正如袁教授喺作供嘅 13 時候亦都有解釋,佢係按照宏福苑嗰個內角,即係個(English Spoken),佢 14 嘅位置嘅實際嗰個尺寸喇,同埋嗰個配置模擬係去搭建,使用咗唔同組合嘅棚網, 15 即係有啲可能係有阻燃性,有啲係不具阻燃性嘅棚網,以及帆布嘅樣本係進行一個 16 燃燒嘅測試,係用一個科學嘅方式去驗證呢個專責小組關於嗰個火勢蔓延機制嘅一 17 啲唔同嘅假設,而測試嘅結果係全面,亦都係印證咗專責小組嘅一啲分析。所以呢 18 個唔係淨係基於一個推測嘅結論,而係經過一個嚴格嘅科學驗證嘅一個發現嚟嘅。 19 而經過幾個月嘅調查研究,首先其中一個結論就係火災最有可能係屬一個意外 20 性質,係由一個我哋叫做熱源,熱嘅源頭,例如係一個未熄滅嘅香煙,點燃咗喺一 21 個宏昌閣104 同埋105 室外面平台上面一啲可燃嘅物料,譬如可能係一啲嘅紙皮 22 等等所引起。然後當火勢發展咗之後,因為其實都需要啲時間去發展,跟住就可能 23 係燃燒到其他嘅譬如棚網等等呢,然之後就係急速係沿住嗰個所謂嘅光井嘅位置係 24 垂直咁樣蔓延,而係有一個煙囪嘅效應,好快咁樣就去到天台。 25 而造成嗰個重大傷亡,根據嗰個專家嘅報告其實係有五個關鍵嘅因素喇,即係 26 包括就係嗰個火勢係好迅速咁蔓延,令到嗰個逃生時間,嗰個即係窗口係好短嘅。 27 第二個就係一啲喺度燃燒緊嘅可燃物,尤其係一啲嘅竹枝,佢哋塌下係堵塞咗嗰個 28 出口,第三個就係嗰個火警個警報系統係失效,令到啲居民係唔知道係有火警發 29 生。第四個亦都係有相關嘅,就係嗰個發泡膠,佢係遮蔽咗居民嘅視線,亦都係延 30 誤咗個反應,當然,個發泡膠對於嗰個火警嘅蔓延本身亦都係有一個影響。第五, 31 就係嗰個走火樓梯幾個逃生通道因為設置咗嗰個生口,而嗰個生口無論係用木板又 32 或者係用鋁塑板都好,其實都係會令到嗰個走火樓梯失去咗嗰個防護嘅功效。 33 而委員會本身佢哋亦都委聘咗兩位獨立嘅專家,佢哋同頭先我所講嘅專責小組 34 嘅專家係分別大家係獨立咁去進行研究,而且佢哋係有採用一啲可能唔同嘅方法去 35 做個研究。而雖然佢哋可能採用咗唔同嘅實驗或者方法,但係重要嘅就係佢哋喺一 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第二十九天

19 本謄本由 Epiq 編製,於聽證會中使用的部分英文詞句由獨立委員會秘書處補充。 啲最關鍵嘅事項上面都得出一個大致係相同嘅結論,所以呢個亦都印證咗其實佢哋 1 兩個團隊嘅專家,佢哋得出嘅結論其實係相當係有一個可靠性,係可以去支持、有 2 說服力嘅。而且佢哋兩個團隊都同意棚網同埋帆布缺乏阻燃性,係令到或者導致嗰 3 個火災嘅一個好重要嘅因素,若果係使用具有阻燃性嘅物料,包括係具有阻燃性嘅 4 棚網同埋呢個帆布,咁喺初期嘅火勢,即係個火勢未係發展到一發不可收拾之前, 5 係有可能係會自行熄滅嘅。 6 我喺分析嗰六個促成因素之前,我亦都想用少少時間係講一講嗰個火勢發展嘅 7 實際情況,因為呢個亦都可以有助去理解點解嗰個傷亡係會咁嚴重,大家都記得就 8 係喺當日,去年11 月26 號,喺2 點51 分嘅時候就係有第一個999 嘅call, 9 五分鐘後第一部消防車14 點56 分到達,到達嘅時候,其實嗰個宏昌閣後方棚架已 10 經係有相當規模嘅火勢,而實際上嗰個火勢嘅發展嘅速度係非常之驚人,喺第一部 11 消防車到達之後,途人就係隨即帶領呢個消防員就係去到呢個宏昌閣嘅後方,而當 12 消防員去到嗰個宏昌閣後方嘅時候,當時棚架嘅火勢已經蔓延至到宏昌閣嘅8 至9 13 樓左右。而去到三分鐘之後,亦即係話14:59 嘅時候,火勢亦都已經係蔓延到宏 14 昌閣嘅西面外牆,而去到3 點鐘,亦即係話首輛消防車抵達四分鐘後,個火勢亦都 15 已由宏昌閣蔓延到去宏泰閣嘅東面嘅外牆,而火勢係經過唔同嘅方式去蔓延,包括 16 係譬如沿住嗰個光井嘅位置急速咁樣垂直去蔓延喇,又或者係透過一啲窗戶嘅開口 17 由外牆轉為一個室內嘅火災,亦即係話當嗰啲窗係因為高溫爆裂之後,咁個火屑係 18 去咗室內。又或者係有一啲嘅分散嘅火屑,無論係燃燒緊嘅棚網、可能發泡膠板等 19 等,佢哋再引發所謂嘅二次著火,即係我哋叫做(English Spoken)。呢啲都 20 唔係一個本身獨立嘅現象,即係話頭先嗰幾樣嘢佢哋係可以互相促進、互相去加 21 劇,形成一個自我強化嘅一個循環。換語之,垂直蔓延產生猛烈嘅熱力同埋火焰穿 22 過窗戶係轉化成室內火災,而室內火災繼而透過影響單位嘅窗戶,點燃一啲之前未 23 影響嘅外牆,即係話有外至內,跟住由內至外。而持續加劇嘅火勢產生嘅一啲燃燒 24 嘅碎片,又再點燃一啲其他附近光井嘅可燃物,啟動新一輪嘅火勢發展。所以專家 25 小組係形容呢一個係令到--要控制一個--令到佢哋變成一個--控制一個極其困難 26 嘅自我強化嘅循環。所以去到嗰個火災最後總共係錄得12 次,喺個光井裏面係有 27 嗰個垂直火勢嘅蔓延嘅。 28 而專責小組嘅火災嘅嚴重程度分析亦都顯示,淨係喺四川嗰個三層高嘅模型裏 29 面,嗰個最高峰嘅時候嘅一個熱嘅釋放率已經達到我哋所講29 個兆瓦,而係相當 30 於一輛巴士或者重型火車喺隧道裏面起火嘅一個高峰值嘅熱釋放率。但係當然我哋 31 知道實際上嗰個宏福苑嘅內角佢哋係總共有31 層樓高,而且佢哋含有比四川個模 32 型裏面更多嘅可燃燒物,所以實際嘅火災嚴重程度係會遠遠超過嗰個模型所示。而 33 兩個專家團隊佢哋嘅電腦模擬亦都獨立咁確認,如果係對一個31 層高嘅建築物, 34 嗰個熱釋放率係可以達到700 至到834 個兆瓦,亦即係話頭先我所講嘅29 兆 35 瓦,起碼係要再多二三十倍嘅。呢啲嘅數字係會可以幫助我哋理解到,點解嗰個火 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第二十九天

20 本謄本由 Epiq 編製,於聽證會中使用的部分英文詞句由獨立委員會秘書處補充。 災一旦佢係發展咗起嚟之後,就幾乎係--可以話係即係一發不可收拾,好難去控 1 制。 2 咁跟住我就會想講一講嗰個--我頭先講有六個唔同促成嗰個大火嘅一個因素, 3 嗰六個因素我就會逐個逐個去講,分別就係工人,第一個就係工人喺工地範圍裏面 4 吸煙喇;第二個就係一啲未經阻燃性能嘅棚架同埋--嘅保護網喇;第三個就係使用 5 發泡膠去封蓋個窗戶;而第四個就係一啲其他非阻燃嘅建築物料;第五個就係嗰個 6 走火樓梯開設嘅生口;而最後第六個就係嗰個消防警鐘嘅失效。我都知道其實主席 7 同埋兩位委員其實經過聽證會,對呢六個方面嘅促成大火嘅因素都已經有相當嘅理 8 解,不過可能即係容許我作為代表政府方嘅大律師,都希望就呢六方面針對一啲相 9 關嘅證據,我都會想作一個即係陳述、作一個補充,好讓即係大眾,尤其喺聽咗咁 10 多日證據之後都能夠有一個總結,有一個歸納嘅。 11 第一個,工地吸煙,專責小組嘅結論係火災最有可能係由一個熱嘅源頭,例如 12 一個未熄滅嘅香煙點燃起嗰個--喺嗰個起火源頭平台上面嘅其他可燃物,例如紙皮 13 等等。呢個結論係基於咗第一,係佢排除咗一啲其他可能性嘅起因,包括蓄意縱 14 火、電力故障等等。亦都佢喺嗰個起火嘅源頭,亦即係話宏昌閣104、105 平台嗰 15 度實際上亦都係事後係有發現有啲煙頭嘅情況,所以呢啲嘅環境證供都係印證咗佢 16 哋嘅一個推論。而工人喺宏福苑嘅工地範圍裏面吸煙嘅情況亦都有一個相當充分嘅 17 證據紀錄,譬如居民亦都有多次透過唔同嘅渠道去投訴,物業管理公司嘅保安人員 18 亦都有目睹一啲工人嘅食煙喇,亦都有保安員係確認接到多宗嘅投訴,親眼係見到 19 工人喺棚架附近食煙,亦都有閉路電視係睇到喺天台上面有建築工人係吸煙嘅。工 20 程會議嘅紀錄亦都反覆提及到一啲吸煙嘅問題等等。呢一個喺工地裏面吸煙嘅問 21 題,毋庸置疑,我哋認為呢個承建商宏業係應該要負上首要嘅責任,而根據呢個 22 《工廠及工業經營條例》嘅第6A 條以及呢個職業安全同埋健康條例第6(1)條,宏 23 業作為呢個總承建商,佢哋係對嗰個工地安全嘅管理係負有首要嘅法定責任,無論 24 嗰個工人係佢自己聘請定係話經過啲二判、三判都好。 25 而宏業明知道工人吸煙問題持續,透過譬如居民嘅投訴、工程會議紀錄等等, 26 但係都未能夠即係有效去制止。而且2025 年嘅3 月份,亦都係業主立案法團亦都 27 係畀宏業一個月嘅期限去改善,之後似乎亦都睇唔到有啲乜嘢重大嘅改善。所以呢 28 個從證據上嚟睇並非一個偶然嘅疏忽,而係一個長時間持續管理嘅失當,由工程開 29 始持續到大火當天。咁而且重點係宏業嘅失責唔係淨係喺嗰個控制吸煙方面,因為 30 可能大家聚焦嘅時候都係睇緊呢個工人吸煙嘅情況,但係我哋亦都睇到其實從專家 31 嘅證據裏面係所講,其實譬如一啲煙頭佢本身唔一定會導致咁大嘅火災,都要睇下 32 附近有冇一啲可燃燒物,呢方面嚟講呢,其實我哋可以有證據睇得到其實宏昌閣 33 104、105 室外嘅平台亦都係堆積咗大量可燃嘅譬如建築廢料,係包括一啲嘅紙皮 34 箱、或者係一啲紙皮石佢哋嘅一啲背後嘅紙皮、發泡膠板、棚網等等,而呢啲物料 35 嘅堆積本身亦都構成嚴重嘅火災隱患。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第二十九天

21 本謄本由 Epiq 編製,於聽證會中使用的部分英文詞句由獨立委員會秘書處補充。 宏業作為總承建商係有責任去確保係要頻繁咁樣去清除呢啲可燃嘅廢料,令到 1 佢哋唔好堆積,但係證據顯示佢哋都係冇咁樣做到。呢個可燃物料嘅堆積再結合埋 2 嗰個吸煙嘅呢個問題,就會令到係有一個持續嘅火源加上大量嘅可燃物料,去構成 3 咗火災發生嘅一個條件。所以工地管理嘅不當就並非只係反映喺工人吸煙問題上 4 面,亦都係頭先我所講嘅一啲可燃物嘅堆積。而證據亦有顯示宏業被勞工處檢控嘅 5 紀錄,而呢個亦都可以體現到佢哋喺工地管理方面嘅水平嘅不足。而勞工處亦都就 6 高處工作違規對宏業同埋佢嘅棚架分包商,亦即係話盈利豐棚業有限公司係提出過 7 三項嘅控罪。宏業係喺2025 年嘅10 月3 號被裁定罪名成立,而盈利豐亦都係被 8 裁定罪名成立。呢啲都顯示其實勞工處亦都有就一啲其他職安範疇嘅違規係採取咗 9 執法嘅行動。針對呢個吸煙嘅問題呢,除咗宏業之外,咁置邦本身亦都有一個角 10 色,佢哋嘅跟進主要係限於將投訴係轉達畀宏業,冇採取一啲其他嘅進一步嘅行 11 動。保安員亦都有確認管理處主要扮演一個傳話嘅角色,但係置邦喺佢哋嘅合約上 12 面,佢哋其實係有責任係去記錄、調查、聯絡同埋跟進呢啲火災風險投訴,呢方面 13 亦都係委員會係可以去作出一個審視嘅。 14 咁有關政府喺吸煙方面嘅行動嚟講,證據亦都睇到勞工處喺2024 年7 月至到 15 2025 年11 月期間係進行咗有16 次嘅突擊巡查喇,亦都有1 次就係突擊嘅監察, 16 而嗰個頻率係相較於一般工地嚟講其實係為之高,而且勞工處亦都曾經發出過好幾 17 份建築地盤嘅巡查報告去提醒番呢一個承建商係要--提醒宏業喇,勞工處喺上述嘅 18 巡查同埋突擊嘅監察之後,係並未有就工人吸煙係採取一個執法嘅行動,呢個喺我 19 哋政府嘅嗰個書面陳詞裏面亦都有解釋過,除咗係佢哋喺巡查期間並未有目擊工人 20 吸煙之外,呢個只係其中一方面喇,亦都係更加主要嘅原因其實係因為勞工處受到 21 大火之前工地吸煙嘅一啲監管嘅框架所限,而根據建築安全條例第53 條,如果喺 22 任何建築地盤使用或者係而使用一啲易燃嘅液體或者涉及火警危險嘅物質,勞工處 23 嘅處長就可以書面發出禁止吸煙嘅命令,除咗呢啲受禁止吸煙命令規管嘅工地裏 24 面,喺大火之前嘅監管框架,工人喺工地吸煙本身就並不違反職安健條例。呢個亦 25 都大火前嗰個規管架構上面嘅一個結構性嘅設計。呢個亦都解釋咗點解喺大火之 26 後,其實我頭先所講亦都係針對呢一個喺工地吸煙係有一個法例上嘅修訂,亦都相 27 關嘅法例修訂係會喺明天就會係生效。 28 第二個促成呢個火勢、火災或者蔓延嘅一個原因,就係一啲未經阻燃性能認證 29 嘅棚網,呢個係令到火勢迅速去蔓延嘅關鍵因素,而無論係獨立委員會嘅專家喇, 30 以至係呢一個專責報告嘅專家,佢哋嘅團隊都認為如果嗰個棚網係使用咗阻燃嘅物 31 料嘅話,個火勢係唔一定會發展到如此嚴重嘅大火,無論係宏昌閣又或者係其後蔓 32 延至另外嗰六座嘅樓宇都好。而呢度我亦都想特別去強調,呢個並唔係一個純粹係 33 疏忽嘅問題,又或者係對一個相應嘅標準係有一個不同理解嘅問題。因為我哋喺呢 34 個相關嘅證據係清楚睇到,呢個係一個蓄意喇、有計劃喇、同埋有組織嘅欺詐嘅行 35 為,目的係為咗節省成本,係犧牲數以千計居民嘅安全。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第二十九天

22 本謄本由 Epiq 編製,於聽證會中使用的部分英文詞句由獨立委員會秘書處補充。 我喺度好扼要咁樣講一講,因為書面陳詞裏面無論係政府或者係獨立委員會嘅 1 書面陳詞都非常非常之詳細咁係作出交代,所以我暫時喺呢度就好重點咁講一講。 2 主要係有兩個事件我哋睇得到,就係譬如喺2025 年7 月,大家都會記得當時係颱 3 風韋帕係侵襲香港,之後就有好多棚網係破壞或者破損,而當時有證據係顯示宏業 4 嘅董事何建業先生明確係指示供應商陳耀輝先生係去購買一啲非阻燃嘅棚網,而陳 5 耀輝先生佢本身嘅證人供詞亦都記錄咗係何建業先生嘅原話,呢個我亦都喺開場陳 6 詞,獨立委員會嘅代表大律師有講過。個講法係話「叫你訂就訂,唔使講咁多,你 7 訂阻燃網都唔會找數畀你」。而呢一句說話嘅含義係清晰嘅,即係話何建業先生明 8 明知道係需要阻燃網,呢個係一個法定嘅一個要求,知道兩者嘅區別。但係為咗慳 9 錢、係為咗慳成本而入係挺而走險,選擇非阻燃網。 10 而陳耀輝先生向另一個董事侯華健提出呢個問題嘅時候,侯華健先生亦係叫佢 11 跟從何建業先生嘅指示。而且呢個模式唔係一個單一嘅事件,因為過多兩個月, 12 2025 年9 月另一個颱風樺加沙襲港之後,亦都係需要更換一啲損壞嘅棚網,而何 13 建業先生亦都係再次指示係去購買4,500 張非阻燃嘅棚網。陳耀輝再次同何建業 14 解釋阻燃網嘅價格其實分別都唔係咁大,但係何建業先生依然堅持要普通網。呢個 15 反覆嘅模式顯示嘅係一個深思熟慮嘅決定,唔係一時嘅疏忽,而政府亦都留意到何 16 先生最近係向獨立委員會提供咗第二份嘅證人供詞,但係當中並未有對以上嘅文件 17 紀錄作出任何正面嘅回應。 18 無論如何,何先生亦都冇出席聽證會作證。而更加嚴重嘅呢就係宏業為咗欺騙 19 監管機構而採取嘅蓄意行為,2025 年10 月27 日,亦即係話ICU 巡查之前嘅一 20 日,宏業嘅員工譚先生係透過一個WhatsApp 就向侯華健發出一個訊息。然之後就 21 係咁講嘅,就話「不公開,明天下午如ICU 到地盤需要燒棚網,check 定邊啲 22 okay」。呢個訊息嘅含義就係好清楚,即係話宏業知道現場嘅棚網並非具有阻燃 23 性,所以需要事先檢查下有啲乜嘢嘅棚網係可以通過燃燒嘅測試,而隨後亦都指示 24 陳耀輝係緊急去購入一啲具有阻燃性嘅棚網,係喺ICU 巡查之前選擇性去替換部分 25 棚網,呢個係一個蓄意欺騙監管機構嘅直接證據。 26 事後政府化驗所嘅李詠文博士就係從宏昌閣係取得有五個棚網嘅樣本,進行呢 27 個獨立嘅測試,其中四個,亦即係話80%嘅殘燃時間係超過咗國標嘅標準下面嘅四 28 秒嘅門檻,而且李博士亦都解釋過,由於一啲嘅非阻燃棚網喺火災裏面佢哋係更加 29 容易被完全燒毀,亦即係話喺宏福苑嘅大火裏面,如果係一啲非阻燃性質嘅棚網, 30 好可能大部分已經係經過嗰場火災已經燒咗㗎嘞,所以剩番落嚟嘅殘餘嘅樣本,本 31 身可能已經係更加傾向係會係通過標準,即係有一個-- 我哋叫做一個即係 32 (English Spoken),即係因為如果係不具阻燃性,好可能已經燒咗。所以咁 33 樣樣,即係話意味住如果係實際使用嘅嗰個非阻燃網嘅比例,有可能係較測試嘅結 34 果更高。 35 而專責小組袁教授亦都進行咗個比較測試,喺冇受到火災波及嘅宏志閣所收集 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第二十九天

23 本謄本由 Epiq 編製,於聽證會中使用的部分英文詞句由獨立委員會秘書處補充。 嘅一啲嘅棚網嘅樣本,其實係同其他嘅棚網嘅燃燒表現作對比,結果顯示其實呢一 1 個宏志閣嘅棚網嘅樣本嘅火勢或者火焰嘅蔓延速度,甚至乎係比一啲非阻燃嘅棚網 2 係更快。而且喺測試結束嘅時候,係甚至係完全被焚毀、燒毀,呢個亦都係進一步 3 印證現場使用嘅棚網阻燃性嘅問題。 4 陸啟康法官:孫大律師。 5 孫靖乾資深大律師:係。 6 陸啟康法官:我諗你遲啲你會講嗰個--因為其實嗰個係有蓄意欺騙,但係就有事先通知巡 7 查。 8 孫靖乾資深大律師:係。 9 陸啟康法官:咁呢個個--你會喺下一部分你會講,係咪? 10 孫靖乾資深大律師:冇錯,冇錯。 11 陸啟康法官:Okay,唔該。 12 孫靖乾資深大律師:係。咁我繼續可能返番嗰個阻燃性同埋非阻燃性棚網嘅因果關係,就想 13 引用番專責小組,以及委員會嘅獨立專家亦都一致確認,如果係使用阻燃物料,初 14 期火勢或者可以自行熄滅,電腦模擬亦都顯示喺小型火災嘅情況之下,使用阻燃棚 15 網火勢係無法係自我去維持,但係如果使用呢個非阻燃棚網就會導致顯著嘅火勢嘅 16 蔓延同埋嚴重嘅火勢嘅發展嘅。 17 咁就首要嘅責任嚟講,頭先我都講過,建築物嘅建造規例有兩條,第3 條以及 18 第16 條,咁都係有要求所有用於建築工程嘅物料係需要適合其用途,並且係經認 19 可測試嘅。咁亦都有一啲其他嘅作業備考係有特別係對棚網嘅嗰個阻燃性質係有相 20 應嘅要求。而《建築物條例》第30D 條下面,註冊檢驗人員亦都有法定嘅責任去確 21 保物料係符合所有相關條例嘅要求。 22 咁頭先我講嗰個作業備考裏面,係亦都有列出一啲例子係有三個係一個認可嘅 23 標準,係方便係承建商以及呢個註冊嘅專業人士係容易去跟進。但係可以睇到,宏 24 業係蓄意使用一啲非阻燃嘅棚網,並且係提供一啲不可靠嘅測試嘅證書,以魚目混 25 珠同埋去掩飾佢哋嘅違規,呢個唔係就咁普通嘅一個疏忽或者違法,而係蓄意嘅欺 26 詐,係目的係為咗謀取更高利潤同時去欺騙一個監管嘅機構。 27 至於鴻毅同埋呢個吳躍,無論佢哋係作為顧問,或者係作為呢個註冊檢驗人員 28 嘅身分,佢哋都係冇採取到任何適當嘅步驟係去核實嗰個棚網嘅阻燃性質,係咪能 29 夠符合咗屋宇署嘅通告函件,同埋勞工處嘅工作守則裏面列明嘅認可嘅標準,佢哋 30 亦都係完全漠視咗自己嘅監督嘅職責。 31 而尤其我頭先亦都有提過就係分別喺2023 年以及2025 年係發生咗另外兩 32 個,即係一個海員大廈同埋嗰個華懋大廈嘅火災之後,其實屋宇署亦都係有特別針 33 對呢啲嘅承建商,或者係一啲嘅認可人士,又或者係一啲嘅註冊檢驗人員有發信或 34 者係發出一啲嘅通函,去要求佢哋係去跟進。咁呢啲好明顯睇到佢哋都係冇去遵 35 守,冇去盡到佢哋嘅職責。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第二十九天

24 本謄本由 Epiq 編製,於聽證會中使用的部分英文詞句由獨立委員會秘書處補充。 咁而第三個嗰個促成火災嘅個因素,就係使用嗰個發泡膠去封蓋呢個窗戶。呢 1 個促成嘅因素嘅背景,係喺維修工程中,為咗保護住戶嘅窗戶免受工程期間一啲打 2 鑿碎片嘅損壞,咁承建商係使用咗一啲臨時嘅保護物料,當然個關鍵就係佢使用一 3 啲乜嘢嘅物料去作呢個臨時保護,而且亦都係要睇埋佢個使用嘅範圍,以及佢個持 4 續使用嘅時間,而我哋可以睇得到就喺2024 年6 月嘅工程會議,其實當時已經係 5 有警告過話發泡膠板係一個可燃物,但係宏業仍然係堅持去使用,而分包商亦都確 6 認係受到宏業嘅何建業先生嘅口頭指示,係以發泡膠板係封蓋所有嘅住戶嘅窗戶, 7 而訂購嘅發泡膠板亦都明確標明係非阻燃。咁宏業嘅董事何建業先生,亦都有係指 8 示一啲分包商以發泡膠板係封蓋所有住戶窗戶,而且要喺任何其他外牆工程開始之 9 前完成封窗,而分包商就喺2024 年9 月去訂購咗嗰個發泡膠板,明確標明係非阻 10 燃。 11 咁宏業同埋法團主席嘅WhatsApp 對話裏面亦都確認到,其實宏業係知道第一 12 期已經安裝咗嘅發泡膠板係並不具有阻燃嘅性能,但係佢哋係仍然表示係會繼續用 13 番嗰啲已經採購咗係不具阻燃性能嘅發泡膠板。 14 咁另外有一個關鍵嘅事實,就係喺2024 年10 月28 號,就係呢個ICU,亦 15 即係話呢一個獨立審查組嘅同事,就去到宏福苑進行現場視察嘅時候發生嘅情況, 16 當時ICU 嘅同事係向承建商提出發泡膠板可能帶嚟火險嘅關注,而宏業嘅代表係向 17 ICU 作出陳述。第一,佢哋係會使用非易燃嘅發泡膠板;第二,佢哋係會每次三層 18 咁樣去做呢個打鑿工程;第三,就係話完成之後,佢哋就會即刻去拆除嗰啲發泡膠 19 板。但係呢啲嘅陳述係完全虛假嘅,實際上佢哋宏業係有使用一啲非阻燃嘅發泡膠 20 板,而且呢啲發泡膠板喺全個屋苑嘅範圍裏面大規模使用超過一年,並唔係好似向 21 ICU 陳述所講,係每三層、三層咁樣去做嗰個打鑿工程。 22 而發泡膠板對於火災所造成嘅雙重影響喺兩個方面都係有直接同埋重大嘅因果 23 嘅關係,第一個方面就係頭先我都有講過,佢會遮蔽咗居民嘅視線,同埋延誤逃生 24 嘅反應,專責小組係佢哋有一個發現,就係喺291 份嘅證人陳述書裏面,其實只係 25 有43 人,亦即係話14.7%,係一個相對地係出乎意料地低嘅一個百分比,佢哋係 26 有講到話佢哋見到火或者煙,而喺579 份問卷之中,係只係有48 名嘅受訪者,亦 27 即係話8.3%,咁即係不足10%係表示係目擊嗰個火災。而對於一場涉及七棟大 28 廈,持續咗總共係43 小時嘅大火嚟講,呢個數字亦都係可以話係出乎意料地低 29 嘅。專責小組嘅結論就係呢個發泡膠板係極可能係嚴重咁阻礙咗住戶去察覺單位外 30 面嘅情況,而延誤咗嗰個逃生嘅時間。 31 第二方面就係發泡膠板本身係促進火勢蔓延,同埋佢亦都會產生一啲有毒嘅氣 32 體,而窗戶上面嘅發泡膠板喺著火之後,係會可以產生一啲嘅燃滴,另外亦都可以 33 導致窗戶本身爆裂,從而令到火焰同埋煙霧直接進入單位,而發泡膠板嘅燃滴亦都 34 有可能係會透過啲二次嘅燃點,係會去蔓延到其他嘅地方。而發泡膠板產生嘅有毒 35 氣體,特別係呢個一氧化碳亦都係致命嘅。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第二十九天

25 本謄本由 Epiq 編製,於聽證會中使用的部分英文詞句由獨立委員會秘書處補充。 咁關於嗰個首要嘅責任嚟講,頭先講過,宏業向ICU 人員所作嘅陳述完全虛 1 假,構成對監管機構蓄意誤導。而鴻毅亦都作為負責監督工程嘅顧問,早喺2024 2 年6 月,佢哋已經知道發泡膠板係可燃,並且佢哋亦都曾經係就此係同呢個宏業係 3 作出呢一個嘅交涉,但係之後就係冇再就發泡膠板嘅廣泛同埋長期使用係提出任何 4 嘅關注或者採取任何嘅監督嘅行動,而至於嗰個註冊檢驗人員吳躍亦都係完全冇去 5 跟進過呢一件事,係反映到佢哋亦都係漠視咗自己嘅監督嘅職責。 6 第四個促成因素就係一啲... 7 陸啟康法官:或者係講番--孫大律師,講番呢個發泡膠,我哋--佢話有不可燃嘅--具備不 8 燃燒嘅性能,我哋有冇標準㗎? 9 孫靖乾資深大律師:有冇標準?主席,我哋其實相信並冇--當時嚟講就冇一個標準嘅,呢個 10 第一。第二,就係的而且確喺市面上,係有存在有一啲係相對地係冇咁可燃嘅發泡 11 膠板,你都會見... 12 陸啟康法官:即係我以為發泡膠全部都燒得著㗎嘛。 13 孫靖乾資深大律師:全部都燒得著嘅。 14 陸啟康法官:係。 15 孫靖乾資深大律師:只不過就係話,當時後來火災之後,李詠文博士亦都係發現現場有兩款 16 唔同嘅發泡膠板,有一啲就係有個回字,... 17 陸啟康法官:唔,係,明白。 18 孫靖乾資深大律師:...有啲就係有一個--係類似一個--你當係好似一個... 19 陸啟康法官:回字,一個菱形。 20 孫靖乾資深大律師:...菱形咁樣樣嘅,咁佢發現係即係回字嗰啲佢哋係會燒得特別快嘅, 21 菱形嗰個其實都會燒,但係會燒得慢啲。但係一旦如果係著咗火之後,佢哋其實都 22 係會--即係都係會燃點嘅,所以而家我哋最新嗰個我哋睇到嘅一啲嘅作業備考,亦 23 都有講話直情係即係唔會容許用任何嘅發泡膠,無論佢哋係咪所謂具備一個阻燃 24 性,即係可能燒得快啲、燒得慢啲都好,係。但係當然,即係如果喺當時嚟講,佢 25 的而且確係用咗一啲較具阻燃性嘅發泡膠板,又係三層三層咁樣做,咁肯定對嗰個 26 火災嘅影響就一定會係冇而家咁嚴重。 27 接住落嚟,我就去講到第四個因素,第四個因素就係一啲其他非阻燃嘅建築物 28 料,咁呢個係包括喺工地裏面或者係喺嗰個棚架上面,除咗係有呢一個嘅棚網之 29 外,亦都有一啲嘅譬如係塑料嘅帆布,亦都有其他譬如包括一啲嘅踢腳板,踢腳板 30 係塑膠去做,橙色嗰啲嘅踢腳板,亦都有一啲嘅木板,亦都有一啲我哋叫做係尼龍 31 繩,或者我哋叫竹篾,嗰啲係黑色,其實都係用塑膠造,去綁住啲竹枝嘅尼龍繩, 32 嗰個最大嘅問題,如果睇番嗰個專家嘅報告,就係因為佢哋好容易去燃燒,咁一燃 33 燒咗之後,其實就唔能夠再綁住啲竹枝,令到好多竹枝其實喺大火嘅時候都係下 34 墮,咁阻塞咗嗰個出入口嘅。 35 咁頭先我想講就係呢啲嘅非阻燃性嘅一啲建築物料,其實亦都係提供咗令到宏 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第二十九天

26 本謄本由 Epiq 編製,於聽證會中使用的部分英文詞句由獨立委員會秘書處補充。 福苑多個樓層大火嘅一啲連續嘅燃燒嘅原料或者材料嘅。咁李博士,即係頭先我所 1 講政府化驗所李博士,佢亦都有喺佢嘅一啲嘅化驗或者係實驗裏面係分析確認,喺 2 宏福苑所使用嘅兩類嘅帆布,咁最主要就係用一啲塑膠,化學嘅名稱就係一啲嘅聚 3 乙烯或者係一啲叫做聚乙烯同聚乙烯嘅混合物去製成,甚至乎係比棚網係更加容易 4 去持續去燃燒,亦都會產生一啲燃燒嘅一啲嘅液--燃燒嘅液滴嘅,而李博士喺佢嘅 5 口頭證供中係形容呢啲嘅帆布嘅燃燒表現係危險,因為佢描述就算嗰個火源移走咗 6 之後,佢係會繼續燃燒,而且係會向側面同埋上方係蔓延,亦都可以見到嗰個火焰 7 同埋嗰啲燃滴係不斷咁樣去滴落,直到整個帆布完全燒毀為止。 8 而專責小組喺四川嘅嗰個火災測試亦都係有進一步去證實呢啲帆布嘅作用,而 9 測試結果顯示用同一批次嘅一啲宏志閣收集嘅棚網進行嘅測試,嗰個叫測試12 係 10 使用一啲嘅阻燃嘅帆布,同埋測試13 係使用非阻燃嘅帆布,產生嘅係有一個幾唔 11 同嘅結果嘅。因為喺呢個使用到阻燃帆布嘅測試12 裏面,嗰個熱嘅釋放率係0.62 12 兆瓦嘅,但係--而且嗰個竹枝係未受影響。但係喺嗰個測試13,亦即係話係用咗 13 一啲非阻燃帆布嘅熱嘅釋放率係高達11.58 兆瓦,而且嗰啲竹枝係被點燃嘅,咁 14 呢個亦都清楚顯示到,非阻燃帆布係將火升級為大範圍猛烈火災嘅一個加速原因。 15 咁除咗帆布之外,頭先亦都講過嘅譬如踢腳板、木板等等,佢哋雖然唔係一個 16 主要嘅燃燒嘅材料,因為如果相較嚟講,其實竹枝佢哋嗰個熱釋放量就會係比較 17 大,係為78%,但係因為佢哋係嘅燃燒個時間比較短,亦都係早過啲竹枝嘅著火, 18 佢係某程度上即係好似一個引燃物,即係佢哋嘅著火係會最後係產生一個足夠高嘅 19 溫度,令到嗰啲嘅竹枝作為呢個主要燃料都係最終係會被點著。因為其實竹枝相對 20 起其他嘅物料嚟講,其實係冇咁快去被燃點嘅。 21 咁關於嗰個首要責任,都係同樣地宏業以及鴻毅,同埋吳躍先生,作為承建商 22 註冊嘅檢驗人員,佢哋都係負有確保建築物料符合《建築物(建造)規例》第3 23 條、第16 條嘅法定責任,而相關嘅作業備考同埋通告函件亦都有要求係所有喺外 24 牆裝設嘅塑膠帆布都其實係要具備適當嘅阻燃嘅特性,符合認可嘅標準。而喺宏福 25 苑裏面使用咗呢個非阻燃嘅帆布亦都係違反咗呢方面嘅要求。 26 第五個因素就係喺... 27 陸啟康法官:我諗或者--孫大律師。 28 孫靖乾資深大律師:係。 29 陸啟康法官:我諗你--因為帆布呢樣嘢。 30 孫靖乾資深大律師:係。 31 陸啟康法官:其實就我哋好--喺嗰個聆訊嘅後期,即係嗰個重點就會喺個帆布嗰度。 32 孫靖乾資深大律師:係。 33 陸啟康法官:即係有講到帶出呢個問題,咁喺即係建築署同埋呢個ICU 嘅證供度,都冇特別 34 好著重去提呢一樣嘢嘅。 35 孫靖乾資深大律師:係。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第二十九天

27 本謄本由 Epiq 編製,於聽證會中使用的部分英文詞句由獨立委員會秘書處補充。 陸啟康法官:其實我都諗緊即係需唔需要叫進一步嘅證供,但係我諗喺你嗰個第47 條嗰 1 度,你哋亦都講出咗你哋處理嗰個嘅立場同埋個情況係點樣樣。 2 孫靖乾資深大律師:冇錯,冇錯。 3 陸啟康法官:咁我就想問一樣嘢啫,就係話嗰個--而家嚟講,呢個發展局回覆我哋就話啲踢 4 腳板嗰啲嘢係冇--即係嗰啲竹枝或者嗰啲板係冇... 5 孫靖乾資深大律師:即係踢腳板、竹篾等等。 6 陸啟康法官:係,就冇--即係冇一啲作業規則規管嘅。 7 孫靖乾資深大律師:係。 8 陸啟康法官:我哋係靠第3 同第16 條,就話你要使用安全嘅建築物料。 9 孫靖乾資深大律師:唔嗯。 10 陸啟康法官:但係我就想問帆布,即係特別講帆布,因為帆布,我想睇你哋嗰個政府嘅立場 11 係乜嘢,帆布我就覺得係嗰啲藍白嗰啲,成日都見到,喺啲... 12 孫靖乾資深大律師:冇錯,冇錯。 13 陸啟康法官:係嘞,藍白我就見到你哋就話擺咗喺嗰個棚架嗰度,你哋就係咪根據作業守則 14 嗰個70 嗰度,你就當佢嗰啲係需要有防--即係呢個阻燃,要根據嗰三個標準,即 15 係國標、美標、英標嗰個標準,你--而用嗰啲帆布唔係喺個棚網嗰度,佢譬如用嚟 16 喺個棚嗰度𢫏住一啲建築物料,唔好𢱕濕咁樣樣,咁嗰個係咪唔屬於呢個作業規則 17 入面嘅監管? 18 孫靖乾資深大律師:係。 19 陸啟康法官:係可唔可以... 20 孫靖乾資深大律師:可以。 21 陸啟康法官:...你澄清番你哋嗰個--對於嗰個作業守則第70 條嗰三個標準係用於帆布, 22 個帆布係--個適用範圍係淨係喺棚網上面嗰啲所謂(English Spoken)嗰啲帆 23 布,抑或係我喺個棚入面,我愛嚟遮垃圾嗰啲都係受於嗰個作業監管所--可唔可以 24 澄清一下? 25 孫靖乾資深大律師:可以,可以。好,首先多謝主席嘅問題先,咁我知道相關嗰個作業備考 26 其實就喺B2/1332 頁,即係我相信頭先主席問嘅問題亦都係衍生喺呢一個作業備 27 考裏面。 28 陸啟康法官:B? 29 孫靖乾資深大律師:係,B2。 30 陸啟康法官:B2。 31 孫靖乾資深大律師:嘅1332 頁。咁我哋可以見到,就係如果我哋睇一睇第4 條,係,可能 32 喺畫面上面睇一睇第 4 條,咁第 4 條裏面個講法就係話,英文就係話 33 “(English Spoken)”,跟住(a)嗰度就話“(English Spoken)”, 34 咁如果中文嘅意思即係話,如果佢係有用到一啲譬如話係一啲(English 35 Spoken )或者係一啲塑膠,譬如帆布,係去覆蓋一啲嘅(English 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第二十九天

28 本謄本由 Epiq 編製,於聽證會中使用的部分英文詞句由獨立委員會秘書處補充。 Spoken),即係話一啲棚架嘅話,咁其實就係要採用一啲係具有阻燃性嘅一啲嘅 1 帆布。我哋政府嗰個理解就係話,如果只要係喺嗰個外牆,即係話棚架範圍裏面係 2 有用到嗰個嘅帆布嘅話,無論譬如話你係用嚟係當係遮蓋嗰個棚架,或者係遮蓋個 3 棚架裏面嘅其他嘅物件,其實應該都會係受到呢一個作業備考嘅管制,呢個係第 4 一。 5 第二就係,無論嗰個作業備考就算撇除我頭先所講嘅立場,因為頭先主席都有 6 講過,其實作業備考之外,其實都有嗰個嘅相關嗰個《建築物(建造)規例》嘅第 7 16 條,都係話係要採取一啲嘅即係適當嘅預防措施,所以如果你呢啲嘅臨時嘅物 8 料,包括呢個帆布,就算只不過係譬如話喺嗰個木板上面有啲建築材料,佢用嚟係 9 去𢫏住佢,咁同樣地佢係咪適當與否,有冇具有阻燃性,呢個應該都會係受到嗰個 10 第16 條嘅管制。 11 所以我諗我哋嘅立場就係話,如果係喺嗰個嘅棚架上面或者喺個外牆嘅出面, 12 其實嚴格上嚟講,即係話佢係包圍住個大廈嘅,咁呢啲其實佢嗰個精神都係話,如 13 果你係包圍住個大廈,係需要具備一個阻燃嘅效能嘅時候,其實所針對嘅亦都係 14 話,如果包圍住嗰個大廈嘅一啲嘅物料或者建築物料,佢哋係會有造成火災嘅危險 15 嘅時候,就應該係要針對佢哋有一個相應嘅要求。 16 如果從呢個咁嘅角度去出發,無論你話係嗰個第16 條又好,又或者你話作業 17 備考,其實應該都係會包含一啲係包圍住嗰個大廈去使用個帆布,因為你個帆布就 18 算話係純粹喺個木板上面嘅一啲材料,你𢫏住佢,其實整個都係其實包圍住個大廈 19 嘅,係。 20 陸啟康法官:嗰三個標準係之後講番呢一樣嘢㗎嘛,應該係咪85?應該係咪... 21 孫靖乾資深大律師:係。 22 陸啟康法官:提一提我,嗰三個標準係應該喺2023 年嗰個... 23 孫靖乾資深大律師:冇錯,嗰三個標準其實亦都係會包括埋即係帆布亦都可以係適用,嗰三 24 個亦都係一個... 25 陸啟康法官:可唔可以... 26 孫靖乾資深大律師:可以。 27 陸啟康法官:...擺喺度?可唔可以畀我睇睇? 28 孫靖乾資深大律師:好,請等等。應該係B2 嘅1326。 29 陸啟康法官:B2 嘅1326。 30 孫靖乾資深大律師:咁B2 嘅1326 就係頭先我哋有講到,喺2023 年... 31 陸啟康法官:所以其實呢個就係講番APP70 嘅(English Spoken)應該係咩嘢?標準, 32 係。 33 孫靖乾資深大律師:冇錯,係,呢度只不過就係羅列咗有三個其實都係我哋認為係可以適用 34 嘅標準,當然亦都唔一定係限於呢三個標準,但係呢三個即係變咗我哋係羅列咗嘅 35 時候就方便業界人士容易啲係去遵守嘅。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第二十九天

29 本謄本由 Epiq 編製,於聽證會中使用的部分英文詞句由獨立委員會秘書處補充。 陸啟康法官:因為我就覺得你呢個好似有少少唔係好清楚就話,即係“ (English 1 Spoken)”,咁佢未必係(English Spoken)個(English Spoken),佢 2 可能淨係擺喺度--擺喺嗰個--即係擺--係咪?即係你可能淨係擺喺度用,或者佢 3 喺嗰個棚架入面,佢唔係(English Spoken)個(English Spoken),佢 4 只係擺喺個棚架嘅。 5 孫靖乾資深大律師:明白,主席。我諗呢方面嚟講,當然如果再寫得清楚啲,一定係更好 6 嘅。 7 陸啟康法官:明白。 8 孫靖乾資深大律師:即係當然而家如果主席問我或者係政府嘅立場,我哋會認為如果從嗰個 9 即係精神去睇,就冇理由係咁--即係字面上局限咗,因為其實你嗰個針對,都係針 10 對你包圍住嗰個大廈外牆以外嘅物料,咁所以冇理由係如果佢唔係覆蓋,即係你就 11 咁話擺喺度,或者如果咁講,咁踢腳板係咪等於唔係包圍呢?我就咁擺喺個可能嗰 12 個棚架嘅側近。即係我諗如果我哋係用一個咁咬文嚼字嘅詮釋嘅方式,我哋就唔認 13 同,咁但係我哋都會同意如果係寫得更加清楚,咁滴水不漏,永遠更好。 14 陸啟康法官:因為我哋擔心就係帆布藍白嗰啲周圍都係嘅,即係我自己大廈都見,即係我哋 15 覺得好似習以為常應該喺度嘅嘢,其實係好危險嘅。 16 孫靖乾資深大律師:係,明白。 17 陸啟康法官:咁所以我哋就覺得點解好似--即係係咪應該有多啲清晰啲嘅指引? 18 孫靖乾資深大律師:因為我都歡迎即係委員會可能喺呢戶面係去考慮,咁當然主席頭先提到 19 嘅時候,我哋就算唔等到即係委員會最終係出個調查報告,咁呢個都係一個非常之 20 即係有用嘅意見,我哋亦都會參考。 21 陸啟康法官:即係我諗都要即係教育公眾,或者即係將個問題攞出嚟,因為其實原來呢啲藍 22 白膠布係危險嘅。 23 孫靖乾資深大律師:危險嘅,冇錯。 24 陸啟康法官:咁所以我諗即係變咗你其實擺邊度都有一個火災嘅風險喺度,咁所以可能即係 25 呢樣嘢都要大家即係要留意下。 26 孫靖乾資深大律師:同意,唔該晒主席,係。 27 好,我頭先就係去到第五個嘅因素,就係講關於嗰個嘅「生口」。咁呢個促成 28 嘅因素嘅嚴重性,就其實大家都而家經過聽取咁多證供之後都係好清楚,因為嗰個 29 走火樓梯係居民逃生最後一道防線,佢嘅設計原意就係話即使有火災,咁走火樓梯 30 個內部仍然係可以保持安全,透過一個防火嘅結構,防煙門同埋玻璃窗係將火係隔 31 絕喺樓梯之外嘅。當然喺今次呢個宏福苑嘅火災之前,好多時即係嗰個走火樓梯, 32 其實佢哋嗰個設計原意或者針對性就係一啲喺大廈裏面發生嘅一啲火警,咁但係今 33 次事件令到我哋係充分睇得到如果喺外牆起火嘅時候,其實嗰個走火樓梯能夠保持 34 一個完整性同埋安全係非常之重要。而呢個宏業喺嗰八棟大廈裏面係嘅走火樓梯, 35 大約每五層係系統性咁開設生口,亦都係直接破壞咗呢個走火樓梯嘅防火功能。而 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第二十九天

30 本謄本由 Epiq 編製,於聽證會中使用的部分英文詞句由獨立委員會秘書處補充。 呢個亦都係一個有系統性嘅安排,因為我哋見到係每五層咁樣做,亦都係所有八棟 1 大廈統一嘅做法,咁亦都只有係因為呢一個宏業作為呢個總承建商,佢嘅指示或者 2 允許先至會存在嘅。而呢個生口雖然佢話個目的係為咗方便工人出入,但係唔應該 3 因為呢個原因而係去淩駕咗嗰個走火樓梯作為呢個逃生嘅嗰個工具或者逃生通道嘅 4 嗰個功能。 5 而有關設立生口做法嘅後果係非常之嚴重,我哋喺證據裏面睇到,譬如喺宏泰 6 閣裏面,咁係有多名嘅居民亦都係喺呢個梯間同埋公共地方裏面不幸係罹難,咁呢 7 個亦都係顯示出其實嗰個走火通道係完整不受呢個煙霧影響嘅重要性。而專責小組 8 亦都係將嗰個頭先我所講喺走火樓梯裏面有多人罹難係歸咎於走火樓梯中受損嘅開 9 口,令到嗰個濃煙同埋熱力滲入,因為本身嗰個樓梯裏面係並冇其他嘅燃燒物或者 10 可疑物嘅。 11 而屋宇署亦都確認走火樓梯開設生口係違反咗多項法例嘅規定,包括係《建築 12 物(建造)規例》嘅第16 條,亦都係違反咗建築物消防安全守則裏面嘅F5.6 13 (a)條,裏面係規定所有嘅逃生途徑必須經常保持暢通無阻。咁亦都喺強制驗樓計 14 劃同埋強制驗窗計劃作業守則係明確要求,註冊檢驗人員係要識別同埋向建築事務 15 監督報告,如果喺一啲出口路線嘅圍封牆,或者係呢個分割牆、樓層、天花板係一 16 啲冇防護嘅開口,亦都係要係向嗰個建築事務監督作出報告。鴻毅同吳躍先生就完 17 全冇履行到呢個明確嘅法定責任,佢哋即係因此亦都違反咗佢哋法律上係要求佢哋 18 去盡嘅一個責任同義務嘅。 19 最後一個嘅促成因素就係嗰個消防警鐘嘅失效,咁宏福苑嘅消防栓同埋喉轆同 20 埋消防警鐘,佢哋呢個系統係共用一個嘅主電源,亦即係我哋所謂嘅嗰個刀掣,咁 21 之前都有好多嘅證據我哋都聽取過。而關閉呢個嘅開關,亦即係話所謂嘅刀掣,就 22 係會同時令到兩個系統係失效。而重要嘅就係排放消防水缸嘅技術操作其實係無需 23 要關閉到呢個主電源嘅開關,只係需要係關閉就係其他一啲嘅譬如排水閥,又或者 24 就算真係因為驚係有其他譬如話會影響到嗰個泵,或者係話嗰個所謂嘅行一個空嘅 25 泵嘅情況,而係要關閉個消防栓系統都好,亦都其實可以透過嗰個控制板上面有一 26 個嘅分隔器係做得到,就唔需要係去控制到嗰個主電源或者嗰個刀掣嘅。 27 咁喺呢度亦都要特別指出,就係喺所有向消防處去申報嘅一啲停用消防裝置嘅 28 通知表格裏面,其實涉及到火警警報系統,亦即係話個警鐘嗰一欄,全部都係都係 29 空白,即係冇去打上一個「剔」號嘅,咁亦都從來冇任一份嘅申報係有講過火警嘅 30 警報系統已經停用,因此消防處喺收到口嘅嗰個通知裏面,係只係知道係消防栓同 31 埋喉轆系統停用,完全無法得知呢個消防嘅火警系統係同時失效。而呢個後果就係 32 消防處無法就火警警報系統本身係採取任何嘅加強措施或者跟進嘅行動,而居民亦 33 都無法係得知原來嗰個警鐘或者係火警警報系統係失效。 34 而喺呢度其實我哋亦都從證據睇到,第一,中華發展同埋宏業佢哋都係要負上 35 責任,因為中華發展係獲宏業聘用去提交一啲嘅SDN,亦即係話嗰個火警裝置停用 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第二十九天

31 本謄本由 Epiq 編製,於聽證會中使用的部分英文詞句由獨立委員會秘書處補充。 嘅通知。但係無論係中華發展同埋宏業都清楚知道,其實中華發展本身只係負責去 1 遞交呢啲表格,中華發展係唔會亦都冇去到現場去評估關閉嘅需要同埋後果,亦都 2 冇自己親身去進行嗰個關閉。而我哋都聽取咗佢嘅董事梁秉基先生嘅證供,佢承認 3 佢哋--佢自己就好似一個橡皮圖章。昨天佢嘅大律師喺呢個口頭陳詞裏面亦都承認 4 客觀上嚟講,其實中華發展亦的而且確係一個橡皮圖章。 5 咁呢度我可能純粹好簡短地就係針對中華發展提交咗一啲嘅陳詞裏面係作出一 6 個好簡單嘅回應。因為代表涉--代表梁秉基先生嘅書面總結陳詞裏面,首先佢就有 7 聲稱,就話消防處係會接受由一名註冊消防裝置承辦商去代另一名承辦商去簽呢啲 8 咁樣嘅SDN,即係咁嘅通知,而且佢話佢係真誠相信宏業係消防裝置承辦商一事, 9 咁我喺呢度係會作一個回應。 10 第一,就係我哋嘅陳詞裏面亦都有講過,佢呢個咁嘅講法個可信性我哋係質 11 疑,因為佢嘅第一同第二份嘅口供亦都係前後矛盾,咁我呢度唔會詳細講。但係更 12 加重要嘅係無論如何,根據消防裝置承辦商嘅規例,亦即係第95A 章嘅第6A 條, 13 一名註冊嘅消防裝置承辦商,如果係話要代另一名同級別承辦商去承擔工程,只係 14 限於後者因病或因不在香港而無法履行其職責嘅情況。所以個法例係寫得非常之清 15 楚,中華發展如果以呢個規例係去代其他公司去提交SDN,肯定係唔符合相關法例 16 嘅適用條件。 17 而其次,消防處亦都明確表示由一名註冊消防裝置承辦商去簽發呢個SDN,但 18 係實際上係由另一名註冊消防裝置承辦商去進行嘅話,呢個都唔能夠接受,更唔好 19 話實際嘅情況根本上係唔單止,實際情況係呢一個宏業本身唔係,亦都冇去聘用一 20 個註冊消防裝置承辦商去進行嗰個工程,即係同埋係進行相關嘅嗰個關閉動作。我 21 哋亦都要喺呢度去強調,所有同消防裝置相關嘅工程,包括檢查又好,包括維修都 22 好,亦都應該由註冊消防裝置承辦商親自去進行,而中華發展由頭到尾係冇去到現 23 場去檢查同埋評估,卻簽發咗多份呢啲嘅SDN,同埋另外有一個FS251 嘅表格。 24 就算好似佢所講,佢只係倚賴宏業嘅陳述,但係因為宏業本身亦都唔係註冊嘅消防 25 裝置承辦商,佢正確嘅做法係應該係要中華發展自己親自去到現場勘察,同埋去停 26 用消防系統嘅相關裝置,而唔係交由其他人去負責。 27 宏業喺呢件事上面嘅角色亦都係非常之嚴重嘅,因為佢係明知道自己並非註冊 28 消防裝置承辦商,但係佢亦都係去指示一啲非註冊承辦商係進行呢一個消防裝置嘅 29 工程,包括就係去排放呢個消防水缸,而佢亦都明知佢所聘用嘅中華發展係只會係 30 做一個提交文件嘅橡皮圖章,去製造一個虛假合規嘅形象。 31 另外,喺宏泰消防方面,佢哋亦都有一個相當重要嘅責任同埋角色,根據消防 32 處嘅通函就係1/2021 號,宏泰消防作為受聘維修火警警報系統註冊消防裝置承辦 33 商,佢喺維修工程期間,無論係2025 年10 月,又或者係2025 年11 月,佢發 34 現呢個消防水缸清空,亦都發現嗰個主電源嘅開關已經被關閉,亦即係話佢知道嗰 35 個火警警報系統係停止運作可能已經超過一個月,但係佢都冇去通知消防處,亦都 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第二十九天

32 本謄本由 Epiq 編製,於聽證會中使用的部分英文詞句由獨立委員會秘書處補充。 冇去向中華發展作出任何嘅查詢,呢啲我哋認為都係一啲唔能夠接受嘅行為。 1 而宏泰消防喺佢哋書面陳詞裏面聲稱,就話嗰個1/2021 嘅通函係冇對其施加 2 責任,而冇要求就另一個承辦商所造成嘅消防警鐘系統停用去通知消防處,亦都冇 3 一個協調嘅責任,我哋都想作出一個回應。 4 第一,根據嗰個通函,承辦商如果係受聘去保養、檢查、改進或者去修例相關 5 嘅消防裝置,而有關嘅工程預計係需要通宵進行或者持續超過24 小時嘅時候,承 6 辦商係應該係要儘快通知消防處,而且係要喺24 小時之內咁樣去做。而宏泰正正 7 受聘於進行火警警報系統維修工程嘅承辦商,所以當佢知道喺進行有關工程期間亦 8 都必須關閉電源總掣,而佢亦都知道呢個總掣其實已經係由一個第三方關閉嘅時 9 候,咁佢亦都同樣地其實係有責任係要向消防處去提供呢一個--去通知,因為佢亦 10 都係嗰個火警警報系統嘅相關承辦商嚟嘅。 11 而且宏泰從來未喺火警前發出嘅FS251 表格裏面確認個工程完成,因為喺 12 2025 年11 月26 日火警發生當日,有關嘅工程其實仍然係進行之中,咁所以根據 13 番嗰個通函裏面嘅規定。佢既然已經係作為受聘進行火警警報系統嘅承辦商,而佢 14 又知悉有關工程尚未完工,亦都同時知悉到相關嗰個火警警報系統係處於關閉或者 15 係失效嘅狀態,所以無論第三方嘅責任係點樣都好,宏泰本身一定有一個責任係去 16 提交一個關閉通知書,或者適當咁去通知消防處。 17 宏泰亦都進一步喺書面陳詞聲稱係冇一個渠道係向消防處去呈報由他人所造成 18 嘅一個消防裝置關閉事宜,我哋認為呢個係錯重點,因為重點並唔係關閉行為係邊 19 個去做,而係宏泰作為受聘維修火警警報系統嘅註冊承辦商,喺工程期間如果係因 20 為嗰個電源總掣關閉係處於失效,或者唔係有效操作狀態嘅時候,已經產生佢嘅情 21 報責任,佢絕對唔能夠以缺乏渠道為由去推卸佢嘅責任,無論如何佢一定可以用譬 22 如電話、書面,或者任何合理嘅方式去通知消防處。 23 最後,宏泰講到話消防處證人對有關責任嘅詮釋存在不一致之處亦都係唔成立 24 嘅,因為其實消防處嘅證人嘅供詞同埋作供都係重申,承辦商喺本身嘅專業範圍裏 25 面,對佢哋發現消防系統問題係負有佢哋專業嘅責任。而宏泰亦都有講到話即使向 26 消防處通報,消防處只會額外放置滅火桶,而根據專責小組報告,額外滅火桶喺實 27 際情況下係唔會產生一個實質嘅分別,呢一點我亦都需要作出一個回應。 28 第一,宏泰本身並冇就嗰個火警警報系統關閉係提交過SDN,咁所以佢嘅後果 29 就係令到無論消防處、居民同埋物管公司都未有通過一個正式嘅機制知道原來除咗 30 個消防栓之外,係嗰個警鐘都唔係有效操作,而呢個通報嘅意義絶對唔只於嗰個額 31 外放置滅火桶嘅。因為嗰個額外放置滅火桶嗰個係針對消防栓或者係消防唳喉轆系 32 統當時嘅一個替代措施,所以如果而唔係針對火警警報系統,倘若消防處得悉係火 33 警警報系統停用嘅時候,無論針對替代措施或者係一個跟進,即係譬如話個停用時 34 間嘅長短都係一定會有一個唔同嘅考慮嘅。而且除咗消防處之外,頭先講過亦都係 35 關乎居民能唔能夠及時獲悉個風險去作出自我保護,如果居民知道火警警報系統並 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第二十九天

33 本謄本由 Epiq 編製,於聽證會中使用的部分英文詞句由獨立委員會秘書處補充。 非係正常操作嘅話,呢個亦都係會對佢哋無論事前或者事發嘅時候係肯定亦都會有 1 相關嘅影響,所以我哋係絕對唔同意宏泰方面嘅書面陳詞。 2 最後,就係亦都會想講到火災失效嘅火警警報系統,呢個置邦亦都係有一個不 3 能夠忽視嘅一個責任,我諗置邦佢哋亦都承認佢哋嘅職員,尤其係羅師傅,佢哋雖 4 然係冇一個註冊消防裝置承辦商嘅資格,但係佢哋就為配合咗呢個宏業嘅水缸工 5 程,而係擅自關閉咗消防加壓泵房裏面嘅總掣,亦都因此同時係關閉咗嗰個火警警 6 報系統,令到火警時候,係火警警報系統就未能夠發揮嗰個作用。咁呢個法律上其 7 實係非常之清楚,除咗係一個嘅消防裝置承辦商之外,其他人士係不得係去對呢啲 8 咁嘅消防裝置去作出任何嘅操作嘅。咁所以無論置邦佢有啲其他嘅辯護理由都好, 9 咁其實都不能夠否認就係佢係違反咗法例上面嘅規定。 10 當然我亦都留意到置邦喺佢哋嘅結案陳詞裏面有爭論到,就係話究竟適用於宏 11 福苑相關嘅嗰個守則究竟版本係點樣樣?咁但係即係我哋呢方面,我哋都認為就算 12 有唔同嘅詮釋空間都好,無論如何其實首要嚟講,佢唔係一個註冊承辦商嘅話,其 13 實就唔應該係去操作相關嘅嗰個消防裝置,呢個就一定係即係最重要嘅原則。當然 14 我哋唔會否認就係話如果有更好或者更新嘅守則,如果可以係適用或者日後係喺呢 15 方面我哋進行一個檢討嘅時候,咁肯定亦都係會對件事有進一步嘅幫助,咁呢度我 16 哋喺其他嘅一啲改善措施裏面亦都有提及。頭先講到就係話無論個總掣上面有冇警 17 告標籤都好,我哋都係會再次強調係一定要由一個具有資格嘅註冊消防裝置承辦商 18 先至可以去操作呢啲消防裝置,先至係萬無一失嘅。 19 我亦都留意到無論係置邦又或者係其他,譬如話中華發展,佢哋亦都有喺嗰個 20 總結陳詞裏面係去聲稱,就係話即使嗰個刀掣處,亦即係個主電源係處於一個開啟 21 嘅狀態,都唔一定係會令到嗰個火警警報系統係可以運作正常,係因為發覺事後有 22 一啲嘅證據顯示相關保險絲係熔斷,而令到系統未能啟動。主席,喺昨天亦都提及 23 到,起碼喺現場嚟講,我哋留意到當時係置邦嘅林文恩先生,佢亦都係嘗試去啟動 24 番個刀掣嘅時候,起碼有其中兩座似乎係能夠令到嗰個警報系統能夠令到佢係重新 25 啟動。 26 至於嗰個火警個保險絲熔斷,呢個會唔會係因為可能係火災嘅影響,呢個當然 27 亦都係其中一個可能性。但係無論如何我哋唔應該因為佢呢啲咁樣嘅情況,而去忽 28 略呢個火警警報系統嘅重要性,因為佢嘅存在一定係有非常重大嘅功能同埋意義 29 嘅,唔能夠因為即係可能會唔會有其他因素令到佢都有可能唔運作,而係去對相關 30 人士嘅責任係將佢--即係忽視咗佢哋嘅責任嘅。 31 所以我諗總括頭先嗰六個促進火災嘅原因,我哋政府認為係相關嘅一啲承建商 32 同埋專業嘅人士,佢哋都係違反咗或者未有履行法例上賦予畀佢哋嘅責任,同埋專 33 業或者法定責任,加上有一啲係物管人員擅自操作,而最後亦都係令到嗰個火災係 34 發生同埋有咁急速嘅蔓延,咁呢個就係第三部分。 35 主席,我留意到嗰個時間,咁... 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第二十九天

34 本謄本由 Epiq 編製,於聽證會中使用的部分英文詞句由獨立委員會秘書處補充。 陸啟康法官:我見你而家係咪到第17 頁已經講到,其實剩番就係應該你嗰個... 1 孫靖乾資深大律師:係,其實跟住我相信應該係仲有幾個部分,但係相對比之前就會簡短一 2 啲嘅。 3 陸啟康法官:總之今日都完得到? 4 孫靖乾資深大律師:會完得到嘅。咁可能而家都係一個適當嘅時間,咁我哋可以有一個午休 5 嘅。 6 陸啟康法官:我哋押後到2 點15 分。 7

8 12 時54 分聽證會押後 9 14 時15 分聽證會恢復 10

11 陸啟康法官:係,孫大律師。 12 孫靖乾資深大律師:好,主席,兩位委員,喺午休前我就講咗係六個促成呢個火災嘅因素。 13 咁而家我就去到第四部分,就係好簡要去講講呢六個因素係點樣係會製造咗一個系 14 統性嘅機制濫用。今次嗰個火災就並非係一個單一嘅疏忽或者單一嘅制度弱點嘅結 15 果,而係有多個持份者佢哋有蓄意違法嘅行為引致。頭先所講到譬如包括宏業嘅行 16 為呢,其實係橫跨我較早前講嘅嗰六個嘅促成因素,佢都有有份參與嘅,呢個亦都 17 唔係一個純粹個別嘅失誤,係一個全面嘅失責。而鴻毅同埋吳曜先生佢哋亦都冇去 18 盡到佢哋嘅監督嘅職責,而且我哋亦都睇到證據,吳曜先生佢嘅角色似乎純粹係簽 19 署文件,喺譬如個半月之內佢有簽署過係涉及到56 個不同項目嘅84 份嘅表格。而 20 中華發展、宏泰消防同埋置邦都有佢哋唔同嘅方式係促成或者係令到嗰個消防系統 21 嘅全面失效。而呢每一個促成嘅因素其實都可以追溯番係該等嘅私營持份者佢哋嘅 22 作為或者不作為。更甚嘅呢,就係有一啲違法嘅行為涉及到一啲刻意嘅規避同埋破 23 壞現有嘅制度框架,係嚴重去阻礙同削弱咗政府嘅監管嘅功能。而呢個系統性嘅濫 24 用有兩個顯著嘅特點係需要強調,第一個就係涉及財務誘因嘅規模,頭先亦都講過 25 宏福苑嘅維修合約個造價係3.36 億港元,面對如此巨大嘅潛在回報,而家現行法 26 例嘅阻嚇力,即係包括一啲嘅安全法例下嘅最高罰款呀,或者係《建築物條例》下 27 可施加嘅紀律處分、職安法例下嘅檢控等等,似乎同違規所能夠獲取嘅利潤相比呢 28 係顯得係微不足道。當濫用制度嘅潛在收益係遠超過合規成本同埋被處分嘅風險嘅 29 時候,似乎對一啲無良嘅行為者嚟講,濫用制度嘅經濟誘因係大過遵守制度,即係 30 以公眾安--健康同埋安全就作為一個代價。 31 第二個特點,就係呢啲咁樣嘅濫用行為嘅共謀性質,亦即係話唔係由單一嘅人 32 士,係由多位人士或者多位嘅一個團體,或者係一個單位,佢哋一齊去犯事。而呢 33 個規管架構嘅保障機制係有賴獲施加責任嘅一啲專業人士之間嘅操守同埋佢哋相互 34 嘅監督。但係喺宏福苑,佢哋係選擇咗合謀,而唔係去互相制衡,互相監測。當本 35 應監督工程嘅註冊檢驗人員成為承建商嘅共謀者,而非制衡者,又或者當本應認證 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第二十九天

35 本謄本由 Epiq 編製,於聽證會中使用的部分英文詞句由獨立委員會秘書處補充。 消防裝置嘅註冊消防裝置承辦商,成為一啲虛假通知嘅付費管道,又或者一啲嘅監 1 察消防安全嘅物業管理公司淪為被動嘅工作指示發出者。整個商戶制衡嘅制度就會 2 失去咗功能,嚴重咁去削弱咗監管㗎構喺保護公眾方面嘅作用,而呢個後果係嚴重 3 嘅,正如專責小組嘅分析,由於呢啲咁樣嘅情況以及我喺午休前講到嘅六個促成火 4 災嘅因素係大幅咁樣樣縮短咗市民、居民可以用嘅安全逃生時間,亦即係話專家講 5 嘅“(English Spoken)”,同時亦都延長咗所需要嘅安全逃生時間,亦即係 6 專家講嘅“(English Spoken)”,兩者嘅結合係令到嗰個逃生窗口變得極為 7 狹窄,尤其係喺宏昌閣、宏泰閣嘅住戶,令到佢哋喺火勢發展嘅早期階段,其實個 8 逃生通道已經變得係即係名存實亡或者係被損壞。 9 有鑒於呢個事情嘅嚴重性,喺本年嘅6 月10 日,警方同埋廉政公署亦都係做 10 咗一個執法行動,對7 名個人以及2 間嘅公司提出合共25 項嘅控罪,確認對主要 11 嘅私營持份者存在至少有表面證據嘅嚴重刑事不當行為。呢啲嘅控罪具體係包括誤 12 殺、串謀詐騙、處理已知道或者相信為代表從可訴罪行嘅得益嘅財產、企圖妨礙司 13 法公正同埋逃稅等等,涉及嘅有7 名個人亦都係同埋2 間公司,係包括宏業、鴻 14 毅,佢哋嘅董事,以及註冊嘅檢驗人員吳曜先生等。雖然定罪與否,最後當然係要 15 由法庭去定奪,但係提出呢啲嘅控罪本身係意味住對呢啲主要私營持份者存在至少 16 有表面證據嘅嚴重嘅刑事嘅不當行為,政府當然留意到相關嘅調查係仍然繼續,有 17 關嘅詳情我就唔會喺度繼續去交代。 18 咁接住落嚟我就會去到第五個部分,係關於救火同埋救援工作嘅檢視。政府嘅 19 立場係今次嘅救火同埋救援工作係喺一個前所未有嘅條件下係專業地進行,充分體 20 現咗前線消防人員嘅專業精神同埋無私奉獻,有關嘅詳情其實喺開場陳詞都已經有 21 交代,我就唔會詳細再喺度重複,我淨係想係就其中一啲嘅幾點去補充。第一個就 22 係今次嗰個調動方面個規模係前所未有,總共係出動咗174 輛消防車,47 輛救護 23 車同埋989 名消防人員,即係講緊喺高峰嘅期間,咁而累計嚟講係有581 輛嘅消 24 防車,217 輛救護車,同埋3,531 名嘅消防人員。亦都有愈100 人係獲消防處救 25 出,亦都係喺消防處嘅支援中心撥出咗係接近1,500 個回撥嘅電話,係為被困嘅 26 居民提供一啲持續嘅安全嘅指引同埋情況更新,咁相信主席同兩位委員喺聽證會裏 27 面亦都有聽過一啲相關嘅證供,主席亦都有表達對回撥機制嘅成效係予以肯定嘅。 28 而有一個重要嘅事實,就係實際上消防處佢哋一直都係大幅超前喺正式火警級 29 別提升之前係作出一個部署,數字之前亦都交代過,譬如火警升至三級嘅時候,其 30 實嗰個部署已經係達到三級標準嘅約80%,即係未升到三級之前。而升到四級嘅時 31 候,亦即係15:34,其實部署嘅消防人員已經係相當於五級火警標準嘅兩倍,如 32 此類推,我喺度就唔重複。最屘去到晚上10 嘅時候,其實個部署係989 名,係五 33 級標準嘅9 倍。 34 而消防人員喺火場裏面亦都面對一個極其嚴峻嘅挑戰,詳情我亦都唔會交代, 35 但係總共歸納可以講係有四個方面,第一個方面或者第一個挑戰就係嗰啲燃燒嘅竹 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第二十九天

36 本謄本由 Epiq 編製,於聽證會中使用的部分英文詞句由獨立委員會秘書處補充。 棚塌下,而去堵塞嗰個入口同埋緊急車輛通道,呢個除咗係令到無論係消防員或者 1 係居民嘅疏散都係有困難之外,亦都係有消防員係喺周邊工作嘅時候,因為啲墮落 2 物被擊中而係需要入院係接受治療。 3 第二個挑戰就係嗰個濃煙同埋高溫,經走火樓梯嘅生口,同埋打開嘅電梯大堂 4 嘅窗戶就滲入咗大廈,呢個亦都係影響呢個居民嘅逃生以及消防員嘅救援工作。而 5 且亦都有證據係顯示,係話部分燃燒嘅單位或者係樓梯,佢哋嘅溫度係去到攝氏嘅 6 800 度,走廊亦都係去到攝氏400 度等等,呢個都係一個好大嘅挑戰。 7 第三個挑戰就係當時嗰個消防栓及喉轆系統係失效,當然係可以用街井嘅水, 8 但係啲水壓往往可能係譬如去到大約去20 樓,20 樓以上就係需要用一啲便擕式嘅 9 水泵去加壓,咁呢個都係對嗰個救援工作係造成一定嘅影響嘅。 10 而第四個挑戰就係嗰個火警嘅規模喇,史無前例咁有多座大廈同時外牆起火, 11 咁呢個亦都係喺本港前所未有。所以綜合以上嗰四個挑戰,消防人員喺今次嘅火災 12 裏面係面對一個前所未有嘅困境,而走廊同樓梯空間狹窄、煙霧瀰漫、溫度極高, 13 大量燃燒碎片持續墮下,堵塞出入口等等,呢啲都係令到實際上嗰個救火同埋係救 14 災係遇上困難。再加上就係頭先我講嘅嗰六個促成嘅因素,呢啲都係令到呢個火災 15 係發展到咁嚴重唔同嘅原因。咁呢度我亦都想講喺我哋政府嘅書面陳詞其實亦都有 16 就消防處嘅救火工作有詳細嘅交代,以及係警方嘅工作亦都有所交代,包括喺呢個 17 災難遇害者嘅辨認組嘅工作喇,警務處嘅傷亡查詢組嘅工作喇,以及譬如話一啲警 18 務人員,包括一啲衝鋒隊、機動部隊嘅工作,咁喺呢度我就唔再重複嘞。 19 當然,政府明白到喺發生咗火災之後,正如獨立委員會亦都會係希望去檢視下 20 救援工作係咪有一啲可以改善嘅空間。咁喺呢度,我亦都留意到喺聽證會期間係有 21 一啲被受關注嘅議題,喺度我都想係概括歸納一下政府方面嘅立場或者一啲回應。 22 總共係有八個方面,有八點我簡要咁講一講。 23 第一個,就係集中人手控制火勢,而唔係去部署人手疏散嘅問題。當時消防處 24 喺大火初段係決定集中資源喺宏昌閣同埋宏泰閣去滅火,而警方亦都有協助附近範 25 圍嘅疏散,呢個都係消防處同警方之間一個行之有效嘅協作嘅安排,警方人員係有 26 利用一啲譬如擴音系統等等係協助呢個疏散,而呢個PTU 嘅人員亦都有進入宏志閣 27 同宏仁閣去協助疏散,成功帶領一啲嘅居民離開。當然我哋留意到當時嚟講,有關 28 消防人員面對兩難,一個就係集中資源去滅火,由警方協助疏散,第二就係去抽調 29 部分嘅消防人手去其他大廈去主動疏散居民,但係代價可能係會令到火勢蔓延得更 30 快。呢個其實都係喺當時嚟講係唔容易做嘅一個決定,但係當然,我哋亦都即係明 31 白當時消防處喺當時嚟講已經係盡佢哋所能去做佢哋認為最適合嘅選擇。 32 而第二個就係關於火警升級時間嘅問題,各次升級都係顯示實際部署,其實係 33 已經大幅超前於正式嘅火警級別,事後回顧可以話較早升為譬如四級或者會有一啲 34 嘅幫助,但係呢個都係一個前所未有嘅情況,未有一啲過往嘅經驗可以指導呢一種 35 規模嘅火警應該幾時去升級,同埋升級嘅實際效果主要係觸發自動預定出動嘅人 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第二十九天

37 本謄本由 Epiq 編製,於聽證會中使用的部分英文詞句由獨立委員會秘書處補充。 數,但係今次嘅事件其實各崗位指揮官已經係可以隨時額外要求資源,而事實上亦 1 都已經咁做。當然我哋認為喺未來嚟講,喺呢一方面係進行一個檢討亦都係適當同 2 埋係一件好事嚟嘅。 3 第三方面就係關於呢個999 電話處理嘅問題,當時嚟講,消防通訊中心經設立 4 支援中心之後,平均係喺約一分鐘之內係接聽一啲轉介嘅電話喇,警方同消防處之 5 間有一啲情況係以譬如話傳真去傳送部分嘅資訊,政府都承認有關做法係唔適合去 6 處理大規模嘅事故,而消防處亦都已經同警方係進行聯合檢討去優化一啲信息交流 7 嘅機制。 8 第四樣就係關於呢個EAS,即係話緊急警示系統嘅問題,咁證據顯示該系統曾 9 被考慮,但係當時未有去使用,而當時個系統未配置作地區性嘅使用,而且亦都係 10 缺乏一個公眾嘅教育,即係話居民受到警示之後係應該點樣去做。咁顧慮到如果居 11 民收到警示之後嘗試逃走,但係若果逃生路線已經被煙霧充斥,反而有可能令到佢 12 哋置於更大嘅危險,呢啲亦都係可能係其中嘅考慮之一。但係無論如何,政府而家 13 亦都已經係啟動咗將呢個EAS 嘅系統配置為可以地區性使用,同埋係可以更快地去 14 被使用,亦都有去設計一啲相關嘅公眾教育嘅計劃去配合嘅。 15 第五就係關於呢個消防人員安全嘅問題,消防員嘅定位系統喺當時嚟講如果係 16 高於約23 樓以上嘅話,地面嘅接收器會因為一啲混凝土嘅干擾係無法收取訊號, 17 而家新嘅消防員定位系統已經係在採購之中,咁而新嘅呼吸器系統亦都喺2026 年 18 1 月投入使用,所以喺一啲硬件方面,其實我哋消防處亦都係會作出一個提升嘅。 19 另外仲有三點,就係都係公眾係關注,其中第六點就係有一啲嘅公眾嘅關注係 20 咪應該首先去拆除咗嗰個竹棚,當時嚟講,即係喺火災嘅時候,當時嚟講消防處嘅 21 專業嘅評估就係喺操作上係唔可行,亦都會適得其反,仲有可能會大幅增加一啲碎 22 片墮下嘅風險,係打擊消防人員同埋疏散嘅居民,而且如果拆落嘅大量燃燒嘅竹枝 23 亦都會喺地面造成更嚴重嘅堵塞。所以當時都係採取嘅就係話做得嘅就做咗先。 24 跟住第七樣嘢就係話係咪應該用直升機灑水,亦都有消防處嘅同事畀過證供去 25 解釋過,喺高處灑落嘅水係無法穿透到建築物內部火災嘅位置,而且直升機佢有一 26 個下旋嘅氣流,而嗰個氣流係可能會令到嗰啲煙霧係迫番入嗰個建築物裏面,令到 27 個火勢係為佢提供額外嘅空氣或者即係氧氣,而且個水彈從高處釋放亦都有可能會 28 損壞一啲其他嘅臨時結構。 29 跟住最後第八樣就係話關於係咪應該接受內地額外嘅消防人手,咁亦都有消防 30 處嘅同事解釋過,基於場地嘅容量嘅限制,同埋大家雙方嗰個操作係嘅不兼容性, 31 包括譬如呼吸器嘅程序、求救嘅程序、疏散信號、消防栓嘅接入系統、便攜式嘅水 32 泵嘅設計嘅差異等等。不過雖然係咁,有啲跨境嘅設備嘅支援,包括有十部嘅無人 33 機,同埋有二十套嘅叫做外骨骼嘅裝備,亦都係的而且確係喺現場獲得接受去使用 34 嘅。 35 另外我亦都想就消防隊目何偉豪先生殉職一事,係想作一個補充,證據都顯示 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第二十九天

38 本謄本由 Epiq 編製,於聽證會中使用的部分英文詞句由獨立委員會秘書處補充。 當時佢係奉命係去前往宏昌閣2701 室係進行救援工作,但係途中佢因為協助居民 1 去包括一--係一名坐輪椅嘅長者,係同隊伍分離,咁就錯誤走入咗去宏泰閣。而閉 2 路電視亦都顯示,佢係喺大約係15:16 嘅時間進入咗宏泰閣,其後佢係發出求救 3 嘅信息,最後就係不幸就係被發現倒臥喺宏泰閣對出嘅一啲燃燒嘅碎片上面。 4 而專責小組佢哋認為,何消防隊目配備適當嘅個人防護裝備同埋呼吸器,佢係 5 有能力從宏泰閣去逃生,所以有理由相信當時佢繼續留喺宏泰閣,其實係希望嘗試 6 去繼續嗰個救援工作,而政府亦都認同專責小組嘅評語,何消防隊目係展現咗非凡 7 嘅勇氣同崇高嘅使命感,儘管面對極其艱難同埋危及生命嘅環境,佢仍然係將佢個 8 人嘅安全係置於--將他人嘅安全置於佢個人自身之上,係體現咗最高標準嘅無私奉 9 獻同埋忠於職守。 10 講到呢度,主席、兩位委員,事後嘅回顧當然係顯示有若干嘅範疇係有一啲嘅 11 改善嘅空間,咁消防處亦都係成立咗一個特大型嘅火警事故策略督導委員會,去全 12 面去檢討滅火同埋救援嘅策略,裝備同埋科技嘅應用。而與此同時,政府亦都會想 13 強調,委員會嘅專家佢哋嘅結論就係當時嚟講,喺消防處現場實際可以採取嘅額外 14 行動亦都係極為有限,不足以實質去改變個結果,造成傷亡嘅根本原因其實都係我 15 之前早上嘅時候講過嘅六個促成因素。 16 而我哋亦都留意到委員會法律團隊就救火同埋救援工作嘅分析,同政府嘅評估 17 亦都係大致係相若一致嘅。咁委員會嘅法律團隊亦都確認前線人員面對嘅係前所未 18 有嘅一個災難或者一個火災,正如佢哋喺佢哋嘅書面陳詞第582 段裏面係咁樣講 19 嘅,佢話佢哋對行動嘅檢視係絕對唔等於佢哋漠視咗對消防人員嘅高度嘅敬意,英 20 文係話“(English Spoken)”,咁政府對呢方面都係完全係同意嘅。 21 接住落嚟第六個部分,我就會想講一講喺呢個規管架構裏面嘅弱點同埋一啲嘅 22 改善嘅措施,咁政府係會坦誠面對制度上以及操作層面嘅問題,我哋喺我哋嘅書面 23 陳詞裏面亦都有詳細嘅交代,總結嚟講,我哋可以話係識別到有五個重點嘅,系統 24 性嘅弱點。 25 第一個就係話制度嘅設計係依賴專業人士嘅操守同埋能力,故此係未能足以去 26 防範蓄意合謀等不法嘅行為。就小型工程嘅監管制度本身,就正如屋宇署嘅手冊亦 27 都指出,呢個係一個自律嘅制度,佢嘅設計係基於一個合理假設,即係獲註冊嘅專 28 業人士會以符合佢哋專業操守嘅方式行事,呢個係喺絕大多數情況下係呢個假設係 29 有效。但係面對宏福苑所發生嘅情況,亦即係註冊嘅承建商蓄意去違法,本應監督 30 住佢哋嘅註冊檢驗人員完全漠視職責,甚至成為共謀者,呢啲咁樣嘅有關嘅違法同 31 濫用行為難以被有關當局發現,所以呢個自律嘅模式喺呢個情況下並不足以去保障 32 公眾。 33 第二,就係統計抽樣為基礎嘅一啲審核機制,亦都不足以去偵測一啲蓄意嘅隱 34 瞞。抽樣比率對一般合規嘅專業人士群體嚟講,應該係一個合理嘅質量嘅保證工 35 作,但係面對一啲蓄意同有組織嘅欺騙,例如宏業選擇性去更換棚網以應對巡查, 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第二十九天

39 本謄本由 Epiq 編製,於聽證會中使用的部分英文詞句由獨立委員會秘書處補充。 咁呢啲統計抽樣本身並不足以去偵測有關嘅違法同埋濫用行為,而正如證人所講, 1 我哋係無法想像當時一啲註冊檢驗人員或者承建商會不斷欺騙政府部門,或者透過 2 一啲選擇性嘅更換棚網嘅蓄意嘅計算行為去咁樣做。 3 而喺度亦都可以去強調一點,根據委員會所索取嘅證據,目前好清楚係不能夠 4 證明政府人員係同一啲承建商或者檢驗人員有任何嘅串通,呢個指控喺聆訊之初曾 5 經被渲染,但係係冇一個客觀嘅支持或者根據,相反我哋見到政府部門係有主動隨 6 機位置進行一啲快速測試,亦都有檢驗一啲測試嘅證書,喺華懋大廈嘅火災之後亦 7 都有再三向一啲檢驗嘅人員發出一啲提醒嘅電郵,呢啲都係一個積極履行職責嘅監 8 督機構嘅行為。當然,面對一啲蓄意欺騙嘅時候,現有嘅工具係未足以去杜絕同埋 9 偵測有關違法同埋濫用嘅行為。 10 第三,喺相關嘅程序指引同埋工作守則亦都係存在一啲嘅改善嘅空間。舉例, 11 喺火災之前,就冇一啲好具體嘅特定嘅法例,或者係工作守則或者作業備考,就一 12 啲臨時嘅窗戶嘅保護物料,譬如發泡膠,又或者一啲其他嘅棚架嘅組件,譬如踢腳 13 板、木板、尼龍繩等等,去定一啲嘅要求或者一啲具體嘅阻燃嘅標準,咁呢度亦都 14 係令到監管嘅部門未有或者難以去採取一個果斷嘅即時嘅執法嘅行動。 15 第四,跨部門溝通機制亦都存在一啲嘅弱點,授權安排下,屋宇署同埋ICU 之 16 間嘅內部溝通係未能確保新採納嘅一啲操作做法及時傳達,而警方同消防處喺緊急 17 來電處理同埋救援資訊共享方面嘅協調,亦都有改善嘅空間。多個部門各自處理居 18 民投訴嘅時候缺乏統一嘅跨部門協調機制,令到投訴未能夠及時轉介到最適當嘅部 19 門去跟進。此外,政府同居民之間對外溝通亦都有改善空間,居民多個月嚟向多個 20 部門投訴安全問題,但係未獲得足夠透明同埋具針對性嘅回覆,呢種種都係政府而 21 家喺度持續檢視,亦都有已經提出一啲嘅改善措施所覆蓋嘅。 22 第五,就係喺呢個硬體方面或者科技方面亦都存在咗一啲嘅滯後,譬如喺呢個 23 消防裝置嘅監管、建築物料嘅驗證、工地巡查位置嘅選擇、消防行動信息嘅傳遞等 24 等嘅範疇,都係我哋會有所體現。 25 咁喺講相關政府嘅針對以上一啲嘅弱點嘅改善措施之前,我係喺度亦都想係有 26 四點嘅一個綜合觀察。第一個,就係呢啲嘅系統性嘅弱點,我哋係需要係要睇番佢 27 哋嘅一啲嘅歷史背景,從中去理解。頭先我都講過,就話譬如消防嘅裝置嘅規管自 28 1960 年代起發展,而關於屋宇署同ICU 嘅授權就自1992 年起沿用,小型工程嘅 29 監管、強制驗樓計劃,分別係2010、2012 年實施,佢哋全部都係經過審慎嘅制 30 訂,亦都係大部分經過立法會嘅審議,反映當時規管、監督同埋專業自治之間所取 31 得嘅一個適當平衡嘅深思熟慮嘅政策決定。所以呢個弱點嘅存在係唔係因為制度設 32 計嘅粗疏或者草率,而係因為制度當時設計嘅前提,亦即係專業人士係會普遍按操 33 守行事。 34 第二,就係委員會嘅獨立專家亦都觀察到,就係消防處喺現場,就算佢哋有再 35 強或者再快嘅反應,呢個其實都唔能夠完全去彌補或者補償建築物嘅設計、維護、 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第二十九天

40 本謄本由 Epiq 編製,於聽證會中使用的部分英文詞句由獨立委員會秘書處補充。 管理同使用方面嘅一啲弱點,所以呢個觀察嘅含意就係話改善嘅措施嘅重心,係應 1 該放喺防止或者係預防火災發生,或者限制佢最初階段嘅發展,即係相較係單單去 2 提升一啲事後滅火嘅能力。 3 第三樣嘢就係正如主席喺聆訊中都有所觀察,就係話就算有完善嘅法規,仍然 4 有可能係發生一啲事故。而英國嘅(English Spoken),即係呢個格蘭菲爾塔 5 嘅教訓亦都可以印證呢一點,呢個教訓亦都同樣適用於我哋宏福苑嘅大火,單靠合 6 規可能係唔足夠嘅,需要嘅係因應每一個工程、項目,係要有一個具體嘅風險組合 7 同埋風險嘅評估。無論如何,當然喺宏福苑嚟講,實際上亦都有好多嘅相關規例其 8 實亦都係被違反咗。 9 第四,就係其實呢啲唔同嘅弱點之間,其實都係互相關聯,咁佢哋疊埋一齊嘅 10 時候,個整體效果就係如果有人係蓄意去合謀,去規避監管制度,嗰個制度係唔會 11 有足夠嘅交叉檢驗嘅機制,喺合理時間內係偵測到有關嘅違法同濫用行為。 12 咁當然政策始終係為人所採用,並加以執行,而相關政策嘅原意同埋機制,頭 13 先我已經講過,係喺專業人士及其他私營持份者依法適當採用同埋執行嘅情況下, 14 就冇一個根本性嘅問題,而政府部門之間嘅分工亦都係一個--頭先我所講,係一個 15 --有一個需要性,但係整體而言,個弱點係在於冇一個足夠嘅機制係對呢啲咁樣嘅 16 蓄意合謀或者完全怠忽職守嘅情況係去針對性係去處理。 17 咁針對以上嘅五個弱點,政府係已經推行一啲全面嘅改善措施,詳細就喺政府 18 喺2026 年6 月15 號提交嘅改善措施嘅一覽表裏面已經羅列,我喺呢度就係會係 19 簡單咁樣樣係再介紹一下,即係好讓公眾亦都係得知嗰個相關嘅內容。咁總共係有 20 七個方面,第一個方面就係關於一啲消防裝置,而消防裝置嘅重點改善措施就包括 21 (一)SDN,即係話嗰個消防裝置暫停通知書係由嗰個通報係改為呢個審批嘅機 22 制,要求一啲主要消防系統喺停用嘅時候都需要事先批准,而唔係只係事先通知, 23 而現時消防處亦都嚴格執行一個60 日嘅上限,亦即係話如果係一過咗期嘅時候, 24 就會發出一個火警危險嘅消務通知書,而政府亦都喺2026 年5 月26 日係進行咗 25 刊憲,係去做一個公眾嘅諮詢。 26 而就九位宏福苑居民嘅書面結案陳詞建議(11),「提出大型維修工程期間, 27 應只聘用一間註冊消防裝置承辦商,以避免多間承辦商之間溝通失誤」呢一件事 28 情,政府認為上述嘅關於呢個SDN 嘅審批機制同埋改革,連同其他嘅改善措施係應 29 該可以有效減低因多間承辦商參與,而產生嘅溝通同埋協調風險,未必需要係一刀 30 切,限制只能夠聘用單一嘅承辦商,當然,最後都係留待委員--留待主席同埋兩位 31 委員再從詳去考慮;第二樣嘢,就係亦都有消防處係強制呢個電子方式去提交呢個 32 FS251,係以去杜絕一啲嘅滯後嘅。咁呢個已經喺2026 年7 月1 日係生效,去消 33 除紙本處理嘅時間差別;第三,亦都係引入咗物業管理公司嘅法定嘅管理責任,將 34 物管公司納入法定責任嘅規管範圍;第四,就係註冊嘅消防裝置承辦商由呢個永久 35 嘅註冊就改為續期制,咁呢個變咗可以加強就係喺每一個續期期間嘅一個檢視同埋 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第二十九天

41 本謄本由 Epiq 編製,於聽證會中使用的部分英文詞句由獨立委員會秘書處補充。 呢個資格嘅審查;第五,亦都係大幅咁樣去提高咗同消防裝置問題相關嘅罰則。 1 喺第二方面,係關於建築物料安全,重點嘅改善措施包括以下,第一,就係屋 2 宇署所發布嘅作業備考85,係落實咗棚網就地抽樣檢查嘅新嘅制度,包括要規定一 3 啲數碼嘅檢查嘅測試報告,上架前係採樣去檢驗,隨機去實地抽查,咁樣係會為所 4 有其他會查證書嘅部門都提供咗一個清晰一致嘅查驗證書流程準則,將被騙嘅可能 5 性係減至最低;第二,2026 年3 月嘅通告函件亦都明確禁止喺外牆或窗戶係使用 6 一啲可燃嘅物料,呢個就係頭先主席亦都有問到嘅發泡膠嘅問題,即係就算無論有 7 冇阻燃嘅特性,如果係可燃嘅物料嘅時候亦都會係不被容許;第三,就係考慮修訂 8 《建築物條例》規定指定建築物料需要符合指明嘅安全標準,呢個亦都會係繼續去 9 跟進嘅。 10 第三方面就係關於強制驗樓計劃同埋小型工程。咁第一,ICU 係引入大型嘅維 11 修項目,至少每四個月都會有一個嘅工地巡查,亦都會對一啲大型嘅翻新工程進行 12 一個整體嘅風險評估;第二,亦都因應委員會嘅法律團隊之前都有提到,ICU 可以 13 提供到嘅工地巡查或者投訴處理紀錄係非常之有限,幫唔到委員會去了解當時實際 14 嘅情況,例如同承建商代表之間嘅具體溝通內容,睇咗啲乜嘢嘅證書等等。所以 15 ICU 亦都係已經喺內部強化咗一啲製備巡查紀錄嘅要求,務求係要有一個書面嘅紀 16 錄;第三,剛才喺午休之前主席亦都有問到,就係關於嗰個ICU 預約巡查嘅問題, 17 我哋都喺證據上睇到,ICU 喺呢一方面嘅做法係明顯同呢個屋宇署係有出入,並不 18 符合呢個MOU,即係佢哋嗰個(English Spoken)條款下面嘅要求,而事實上 19 亦都係製造咗一啲空間,係畀承建商去魚目混珠。當然當時ICU 嘅做法,佢哋都解 20 釋過,即係佢哋希望一啲嘅承建商去跟進,亦都係基於佢當時對承建商或者係呢個 21 嘅註冊檢驗人員嘅一個信賴,但係喺今次事件之後,ICU 亦都已經改變咗有關嘅做 22 法,唔再進行預約,係堵塞咗呢個喺制度上被濫用嘅可能性同埋漏洞;第四,屋宇 23 署亦都係有加強突擊巡查大型樓宇維修工程地盤,亦都係至少係每六個月一次;第 24 五,亦都係會有研究喺大型維修工程棚架安全相隔嘅距離要求。 25 此外,喺強制驗樓計劃同埋小型工程計劃嘅執行制度之下,我哋亦都見到ICU 26 旗下嘅相關部門喺處理跟進承建商,實際上係譬如點樣使用呢個發泡膠封窗,或者 27 點樣去處理一啲快速測試係可能會引起嘅疑問嘅測試結果,以及進行譬如好似一啲 28 叫做AFC 嘅一啲文件審查嘅時候,審閱小型工程相關文件嘅認知度同埋嚴謹性,呢 29 啲嘅具體操作上嘅問題亦都係會有嚴謹嘅檢視同埋跟進嘅需要,呢個政府亦都係確 30 認嘅。 31 第四方面,就係關於呢個專業人士規管方面。第一,係會檢視《建築物條例》 32 以加強紀律處分同埋註冊續期考量,亦都會考慮賦予屋宇署就專業人士違反譬如 33 《防止賄賂條例》同埋《競爭條例》嘅情況,直接除牌。第二,ICU 亦都會要求註 34 冊檢驗人員提交定期現場嘅監督紀錄。第三,ICU 亦都會定期同註冊檢驗人員同承 35 建商進行面對面會議,確保佢哋係有去履行佢哋嘅責任。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第二十九天

42 本謄本由 Epiq 編製,於聽證會中使用的部分英文詞句由獨立委員會秘書處補充。 第五方面,喺跨部門溝通嘅層面,特別係屋宇署同埋ICU 之間,就應用工作準 1 則同埋做法嘅更新同埋溝通上面,一,ICU 同埋屋宇署係會加強一啲定期舉行嘅工 2 作層級嘅聯絡會議,係會用一個季度嘅會議去取代年度嘅會議,亦都會指定高級嘅 3 專業聯絡人員,互派人員借調機制,相信可以有效去防止日後再次出現今次事件 4 中,ICU 喺一段時間之後先至知道屋宇署更新咗嘅做法,即係話屋宇署進行呢個工 5 地實地巡查嘅要求呢個唔理想嘅情況,亦都會強化就諮詢,包括係口頭諮詢,準備 6 一啲妥當紀錄嘅機制以供日後參考。第二,ICU 同埋消防處亦都會建立一個雙向嘅 7 溝通機制。第三,勞工處、屋宇署、消防處亦都會發展一個聯合巡查安排。四,消 8 防處亦都會優化一啲個案轉介機制,對涉及其他部門專業範疇嘅消防案件會主動去 9 轉介,同埋要確認接手跟進至完成,如果部門之間有爭議就會升級到助理處長或者 10 副處長層面去協調。就九位元宏福居民喺書面結案陳詞建議,提出一個優化投訴處 11 理流程嘅建議,政府認為上述消防處優化個案轉介機制應該係可以回應到佢哋嘅有 12 關嘅關注,而目標就係確保涉及消防安全嘅投訴唔會因為部門嘅分工而未獲得適當 13 嘅跟進。 14 至於第六面,就係呢個工地安全嘅方面,咁一,就係頭先亦都有講過,就係全 15 面去禁止建築地盤嘅吸煙,呢亦都係喺2026 年5 月19 號向立法會提交咗三項嘅 16 修例嘅草案,咁係修訂呢個《吸煙(公眾衞生)條例》,將所有建築地盤列為禁煙 17 區,有定額罰款3,000 元;修訂《定額罰款(吸煙罪行)條例》賦予職安主任發 18 出定額罸款通知書;亦都有修訂《建築地盤(安全)規例》第53 條,施加正面嘅責 19 任喺承建商,呢個修例嘅效果可以係根本性嘅。即係話勞工處人員即使唔能夠目擊 20 工人吸煙或者有足夠嘅證據,如果承建商未能採取合理措施防止吸煙,亦都可以同 21 樣被檢控,咁亦都會係修--而呢個相關嘅修訂亦都已經係通過咗,會喺明天係生 22 效。亦都會係考慮去修訂一啲工作嘅守則,為譬如踢腳板等等物料係去制訂一啲嘅 23 要求。 24 跟住第七,就係喺呢個科技方面,咁舉例嚟講,消防處而家已經喺度開發第四 25 代嘅調配系統,亦都會將來電線路增至100 條,並且會自動將資訊係同步傳送至各 26 指揮官嘅便攜裝置。二,新嘅消防員定位系統係會採用雙頻訊號,包括低頻,以更 27 佳同埋更好去穿透一啲嘅混凝土,測試確認係可以喺23 樓成功接收訊號。此外, 28 電子嘅入場控制板將會取代紙本嘅呼吸器嘅紀錄系統,以消除一啲人手記錄嘅錯 29 誤。亦都喺緊急嘅警示系統係會配置可以作地區性使用嘅,以備日後類似事件中能 30 夠向特定地域,係向居民去發出一啲嘅警示。 31 以上種種改善嘅措施都係希望制度能夠抵禦宏福苑所發生嘅一啲有組織、合謀 32 同埋蓄意嘅濫用行為,同時亦都可以係加強香港樓宇管理制度同埋佢哋所建基於嘅 33 私人業權同埋專業責任嘅基本原則。 34 咁喺呢度,我亦都留意到喺講咗頭先火災嘅促成因素,以及一啲嘅救火、救援 35 工作嘅檢視,同埋政府部門嘅一啲制度上嘅弱點之後,咁我亦都想係針對委員會法 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第二十九天

43 本謄本由 Epiq 編製,於聽證會中使用的部分英文詞句由獨立委員會秘書處補充。 律團隊嘅結案陳詞第七章裏面嘅部分嘅內容係純粹提出一個好概括性嘅回應。政府 1 係留意到委員會法律團隊係針對譬如ICU、屋宇署、消防處同埋勞工處提出咗一啲 2 係具體嘅批評,咁政府嘅書面總結陳詞亦都坦誠係各項系統性同埋操作層面嘅改善 3 空間,所以我哋唔打算喺呢度係逐一去重複。 4 咁政府只係認為係有需要就委員會法律團隊佢哋嘅分析涉及三個共通嘅議題係 5 提供一啲嘅背景同埋澄清,係確保委員會有一個係完整同埋平衡嘅圖畫或者畫面 6 嘅。第一個,就係委員會嘅法律團隊佢哋有個共通主題嘅,就係政府部門係接受咗 7 一啲受規管者嘅陳述、證書或者文件,係未有獨立去核實嘅,包括嘅例子譬如ICU 8 係會接受咗承建商提供嘅一啲棚網證書,未有去核實到相關嗰個證書譬如個簽發機 9 構。消防處接受咗嗰個叫做SDN,即係消防裝置停用嘅通知書裏面嘅報告內容,而 10 未有入去個泵房裏面去核實。又或者譬如勞工處亦都係接受咗嗰個棚網嘅證書,冇 11 再進一步係要求一啲其他嘅佐證等等。 12 咁呢度政府承認呢啲都係一啲需要改善嘅地方,不過政府亦都希望委員會就係 13 同時亦都考慮以下嘅一啲背景。頭先我亦都講過就係喺任何規管嘅制度當中,某程 14 度上監管者都係需要倚賴受規管者去提供一啲信息嘅,呢個係一個唔係可以完全去 15 消除嘅特徵,而係規管制度嘅一個基本運作邏輯。當然個關鍵係在於呢啲雖然係一 16 個合理嘅前提,亦都係受法定責任約束,受專業操作嘅守則去規管,面對紀律處分 17 風險嘅註冊專業人士,佢哋一般係應該會如實報告。 18 咁頭先亦都講喺宏福苑所出現嘅問題,就係呢啲咁樣嘅前提係被有組織地、系 19 統性地去顛覆咗,咁吸收教訓,政府亦都接受制度係需要有更加有效嘅驗證機制, 20 而呢個亦都正正係頭先我講嘅一啲各項改善措施嘅其中一個方向,即係包括就係頭 21 先講嘅作業備考85,係要求一啲實驗室係去抽樣測試嘅制度,SDN 由通報改為要 22 預審等等。 23 第二個,委員會法律團隊嘅共通批評就係好多政府部門喺收到居民嘅投訴之 24 後,未能夠有效去跟進,投訴喺部門之間流轉,而最終冇人係實質去處理。咁呢度 25 我亦都希望委員會可以考慮,部門同部門之間本身有一個分工,各自有其專業範疇 26 同埋管轄權限,呢個並唔係一定係一個--本身並唔係一個問題。因為譬如消防處基 27 於一啲專業技能,譬如將結構性嘅問題轉介畀屋宇署,又或者係譬如呢個勞工處因 28 應問題涉及到一啲建築物料,係將嗰個投訴轉介番畀ICU 等等,即係呢個可以話係 29 某程度上都係一個嘅技術同埋專業上嘅分工,係有佢實際嘅需要性嘅。 30 問題係當投訴涉及跨部門事項嘅時候,或者係需要一個更加有效嘅機制去確保 31 投訴係真係會被轉介至最適當嘅部門,並且係會獲得實質嘅跟進,而呢個亦都係剛 32 才我講政府已經係落實去推行嘅改善措施所針對,即係唔係淨係話畀市民知你可以 33 向另一個部門去投訴,而係好似消防處咁優化嘅個案轉介機制,係會確保嗰個投訴 34 最終係會獲適當嘅部門去跟進為止。亦都有一啲譬如話跨部門聯合巡查嘅安排等等 35 都係去確保接手同埋跟進至完成嘅流程。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第二十九天

44 本謄本由 Epiq 編製,於聽證會中使用的部分英文詞句由獨立委員會秘書處補充。 第三方面,委員會嘅法律團隊亦都有一個共通嘅議題,就係話各部門之間佢哋 1 嘅分工係令到冇一個部門係對宏福苑嘅整體火災嘅風險有全面嘅掌握,而呢個風 2 險,委員會嘅法律團隊認為係可以預見嘅。咁譬如佢喺(English Spoken), 3 即係格倫菲爾塔涉及係一個永久性外牆嘅包層,大火之後各地嘅應對,包括香港都 4 係集中檢查同移除呢類永久性嘅可燃嘅包層,而消防處處長亦都喺香港進行全面嘅 5 相應部署。又或者譬如喺海員俱樂部大火同華懋大火之後,對呢一類風險嘅認知有 6 所提升,政府亦都有作出相應嘅回應。 7 就委員會律師講到話跨部門嘅分工,以至能唔能夠令各部門對事宜有全面嘅掌 8 握而言嘅呢個概念,咁我哋會想再次強調兩點。第一,實際操作裏面,部門之間有 9 效合理嘅分工係任何有效行政系統嘅必要特徵,最終嘅目標係希望每個範疇都有明 10 確嘅負責部門,有暢通嘅轉介渠道,以及係當問題被發現時候,係有人跟進到底。 11 第二,政府亦都已經係推行咗多個跨部門嘅協調措施去針對呢一個目標,咁所以我 12 哋都係希望係可以儘量係去改善制度上面嘅弱點。總括嚟講,政府希望委員會喺作 13 出裁斷嘅時候能夠公平咁區分事前基於合理認知嘅制度運作,以及事後基於完整信 14 息嘅判斷,亦都應該要區分直接導致火災嘅一啲蓄意違法行為,以及未能及時偵測 15 該等違法行為嘅監管弱點。 16 另外,我亦都會想再喺結束呢個第六部分之前,係想就委員會嘅獨立專家同埋 17 法律團隊嘅建議係講幾句。實際上兩個專家團隊佢哋都係匯聚喺一個核心嘅原則, 18 就係話風險評估係應該成為日後規管有人入駐建築物臨時工程嘅組織性原則。委員 19 會嘅專家建議係需要有制訂一套經過深思熟慮、設計完善嘅風險為本嘅方法論,以 20 審批香港所有建築物嘅維修翻新工程,使到每一棟嘅建築物都能夠因應佢哋嘅具體 21 情況同埋佢哋嘅實施,係度身訂做一啲臨時工程嘅方案同埋適當嘅安全措施。而袁 22 國傑教授亦都同意呢個原則,佢喺作供嘅時候亦都指出,喺風險評估呢個範疇係認 23 為呢個應該係被納入監察、設計同埋執行工程嘅過程,令到各方都能夠對風險有所 24 警覺,從而防止事故發生。 25 而主席亦都喺喺聆訊中觀察,規管本身並唔係一個終點,即使通過法規亦都仍 26 然有發生事故嘅可能性,所以(English Spoken)教授亦都指出,風險係等於 27 一個叫做或然率或者嗰個概率((English Spoken ))乘以後果,個 28 (English Spoken)嘅一個結果嚟嘅。所以你唔能夠只係透過譬如降低火災發 29 生嘅概率,即係個機會率,就認為風險已經處理咗,如果大火一旦發生嘅後果係災 30 難性嘅話,咁風險嘅管控就唔單只要求淨係降低個發生事故嘅概率,亦都可能係包 31 括係要檢視後果,同埋其他係可以儘量去減低嗰個後果嘅一啲措施或者可能性。 32 當然主席亦都有表示委員會嘅最終建議係唔應該過分離地或者係脫離現實,咁 33 政府係理解同埋同意呢個務實嘅態度,建議必須係要以實際可行性作為其中一個嘅 34 考量或者係基礎。同時亦要去汲取教訓處理呢場大火所曝露嘅風險,而政府亦都會 35 繼續秉持呢啲考慮,喺收到委員會最終報告之後,係會著手研究委員會建議,係儘 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第二十九天

45 本謄本由 Epiq 編製,於聽證會中使用的部分英文詞句由獨立委員會秘書處補充。 量加強同埋去考慮相關嘅風險。 1 而政府亦都留意得到委員會嘅專家佢哋嘅若干建議同政府已經推行或者正在推 2 行嘅改善措施嘅方向係一致嘅,包括譬如屋宇署喺2026 年3 月嘅通函,明文禁止 3 喺外牆或者將會使用一啲可燃物料,跨部門嘅協調機制嘅建立,加強工地巡查制度 4 等等。與此同時,政府亦強調一啲涉及較長期政策研究範疇,尤其係一啲可能會牽 5 涉其他社會持份者嘅一啲措施,政府係會繼續喺委員會報告發表後儘速推進相關嘅 6 檢討同改進工作。 7 而委員會獨立專家嘅建議之外,我亦都留意到委員會法律團隊喺佢哋書面陳詞 8 亦都有提出一系列嘅即時同埋長期嘅改善建議,涉及嘅範圍亦都係廣泛嘅。而當中 9 部分嘅建議唔只於整體嘅政策改善方向,而係嗰句針對性,我哋當然係會預期亦都 10 歡迎委員會就呢次事件作出改善嘅建議。同時亦都會重申主席喺昨天所強調講法, 11 亦即係話委員會提出嘅建議會係比較係方向性,同時需要考慮一啲資源配套、具體 12 操作嘅細節同埋市民嘅承受能力,各持份者嘅角色同埋市場情況等等嘅因素。 13 主席,咁我建議有一個小休,然之後我就會再完成係關於第七部分職權範圍 14 (二),以及我會作一個簡短嘅總結。 15 陸啟康法官:你都應該休息一下。咁我哋休息十分鐘,唔該。 16

17 15 時10 分聽證會押後 18 15 時20 分聽證會恢復 19

20 陸啟康法官:係,孫資深大律師。 21 孫靖乾資深大律師:好,唔該晒主席、兩位委員。咁我剛才就已經係就職權範圍(一)嘅議 22 題,就分開前後有六個部分,就係進行咗一個口頭嘅總結陳詞,接住下來我就會相 23 當地可能比較簡短,就會去到職權範圍(二)嘅議題,就作為第七個部分,然之後 24 就最後有一個簡短嘅總結。 25 就呢個職權範圍(二)嘅議題,包括競爭事務委員會、廉政公署同埋警方佢哋 26 提供嘅證據都一致顯示,其實大型樓宇嘅維修,業界嘅圍標問題係相當普遍。咁我 27 哋昨天亦都有聽取過係競爭事務委員會嘅口頭嘅陳詞,亦都係有喺呢方面就係有一 28 再強調,呢個係屬於一個系統性嘅積弊。而競委會嘅報告明確指出,佢哋相信部分 29 樓宇維修承建商之間,確實係存在一啲廣泛、系統性同埋長期嘅做法,以影響樓宇 30 維修工程投標嘅結果。而相關行為嘅具體手法係多樣同埋複雜,咁正如競委會亦都 31 有喺佢哋嘅陳詞講過,係有包括一啲叫做壓低投標,即係圍標者就唔入標,咁又或 32 者一啲叫掩護式嘅標書,即係預定勝出者以外嘅承辦商刻意以較差嘅條件去入標, 33 輪流嘅圍標,即係集團成員裏面輪流去勝出,瓜分市場或者係按地域去分配一啲嘅 34 佢哋嘅標書,信息嘅交換,共用一啲嘅資歷,即係話一間公司將文件嘅範本,可能 35 係會交畀另一間,以營造一個競爭嘅假像,以及一啲嘅虛構嘅投標,即係話同一個 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第二十九天

46 本謄本由 Epiq 編製,於聽證會中使用的部分英文詞句由獨立委員會秘書處補充。 業務實體成立多間表面上係獨立嘅公司一齊去入標等等。 1 有組織嘅犯案集團透過圍標、賄賂、操控委任代表文書及利益衝突等等嘅手 2 段,係侵蝕咗呢個樓宇維修嘅採購過程。而競委會嘅證據顯示呢啲嘅圍標集團嘅運 3 作係具有高度嘅組織性嘅,佢哋會有佢哋嘅主腦、有頭目,亦都會有一個所謂「派 4 功課」嘅系統,而當集團嘅頭目見到一個佢哋想贏取嘅招標項目嘅時候,就會安排 5 集團旗下承辦商根據指示去入標,確保擬定勝出者係順利跑出,甚至亦都會有多個 6 圍標嘅集團之間係會互相合作,或者係互相借用旗下嘅承辦商。 7 而呢啲嘅行為並唔係近期先至出現,做法似乎係喺市場上面出現咗一段時間。 8 就宏福苑嚟講,宏福苑亦都係競委會喺2026 年3 月向競爭事務審裁處提出嘅一宗 9 法律程序嘅十一個屋苑之一,而涉及嘅合約總值喺裏面估計係達致7 億港元,而招 10 標期間,亦都嗰個係時間係2022 年4 月至到2023 年9 月,亦都係正正係對應番 11 宏福苑承建商招標嘅時間。 12 而事實上,顧問公司同埋註冊嘅檢驗人員嘅角色亦都係尤為關鍵,競委會同廉 13 署嘅證據都顯示到一個典型嘅模式,就係顧問係會以一個低於成本嘅費用投標,以 14 取得委任,然後將維修嘅合約導向一啲相關聯嘅承建商,而係藉住嗰個維修合同有 15 天價嘅合同,咁從中係會收取一啲回佣嘅。 16 而廉署確認喺若干嘅調查個案裏面,顧問公司委任嘅註冊檢驗人員實際上只係 17 一個空殼,對項目幾乎不進行監督,僅僅係為咗滿足一啲《建築物條例》嘅表面上 18 嘅一啲法定嘅要求而受聘。廉署嘅整體評估係大型樓宇維修行業喺好大程度上係建 19 基於信譽嘅制度,包含固有同埋明顯嘅結構性嘅漏洞,形成自我延續嘅一個惡性循 20 環,有道德嘅專業人士係退出進一步扭曲生態嘅系統,限制業主嘅選擇,並進一步 21 鞏固咗有問題嘅服務者去提供嘅主--作為提供者嘅一個主導嘅地位。呢個惡性循環 22 如果冇針對性去干預,係冇辦法去打破同埋逆轉。 23 而針對以上嘅情況,政府同埋相關嘅機構都有佢哋嘅角色同埋一啲嘅改善措 24 施,咁總括嚟講係可以分做六個方面。第一個就係市區重建局,佢係喺2016 年推 25 出咗呢個「招標妥」嘅計劃,係以減低一個圍標嘅風險。而喺火災之後,我哋亦都 26 聽到市建局嘅昨天嘅口頭陳詞,佢哋亦都喺度開發呢個加強版嘅「招標妥」2.0。 27 第二方面就係競委會,競委會由2022 年至今,係有五個調查進行裏面,都係 28 涉及到68 個私人屋苑、15 個工業大廈同埋64 間公司,而正如剛才所講,喺今年 29 嘅2026 年3 月,佢哋亦都係有向呢一個競爭事務審裁處係提出咗一個牽涉到圍標 30 嘅法律程序。 31 第三,廉政公署喺過往三年接獲239 宗涉及樓宇維修嘅貪污投訴,當中有220 32 宗,亦即係話92%係獲正式調查,有137 人被捕,廉署除咗執法之外,亦都有透過 33 早期嘅介入機制,主動向業主預警風險,並阻撓犯罪集團嘅計劃,過去三年係進行 34 咗20 次嘅早期介入,涵蓋32 棟樓宇同埋屋苑。 35 第四,就係警務處,警務處透過「復安居計劃」,自2013 年起進行宣傳,教 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第二十九天

47 本謄本由 Epiq 編製,於聽證會中使用的部分英文詞句由獨立委員會秘書處補充。 育同埋預防犯罪嘅工作,至到2026 年1 月,曾經到訪7,100 棟樓宇,警方亦都 1 建議加強成員之間嘅信息交流,設立具刑事罰則嘅專門法例,以及引入免罪條款同 2 埋法定保護舉報人。 3 第五,就係民政事務處,而民政事務處喺大廈嗰個管理方面嘅角色係屬於促進 4 同埋推動嘅性質,佢嘅職責範圍係限於《建築物管理條例》下,大廈管理程序嘅事 5 宜,並不延伸到監督施工工程、物料或者消防安全嘅。而大埔民政事務處喺處理咗 6 44 宗涉及宏福苑嘅相關投訴,亦都有發出多封勸喻嘅信函,亦都有出席多次嘅業主 7 大會,並亦都有就《建築物管理條例》嘅程序提供建議。 8 一個值得特別提及嘅例子係喺2024 年9 月6 日嘅特別業主大會上面,當時嘅 9 法團主席離場,並企圖去終止會議,民政事務處嘅代表係即時介入,並且係有向業 10 主說明喺呢個《建築物管理條例》下面佢哋有嘅權利,以確保個會議可以合法繼續 11 去進行,呢個亦都體現咗民政事務處喺一啲比較困難嘅情況下,係積極去履行佢個 12 促進者角色嘅態度。 13 而針對《建築物管理條例》方面嘅修訂,民政及青年事務局而家係正進行五大 14 嘅修訂方向,喺2026 年2 月份已經係諮詢立法會,而公眾諮詢就計劃喺2026 年 15 中係進行,咁係有幾方面,第一,就係提高大型維修工程同埋大額採購決定嘅出席 16 同埋投票門檻,包括嗰個親身投票嘅門檻,同時係會規定喺議決大型維修工程嘅業 17 主大會舉行前,係要召開簡介會,以確保業主係可以充分了解到工程嘅詳情嘅。 18 第二,就係去完善嗰個委任代表文書嘅制度,包括就係設立一個限制持有代表 19 文書嘅上限,代表文書即係嗰啲(English Spoken),進一步增設一啲嘅公開 20 張貼,以簽署委任代表文書業主名單嘅要求,同埋容許委任人自願註明投票意向, 21 加入聲明條款,呢啲都係希望去完善呢啲咁樣嘅即係叫做代表文書或者(English 22 Spoken)嘅制度嘅一啲嘅建議嘅措施。 23 第三,就係要去完善嗰個利益嘅申報系統或者制度,包括係尤其係顧問、承建 24 商,係一定要披露佢哋嘅利益衝突,而如果佢哋有一個虛假嘅申報,係會屬刑事嘅 25 罪行。 26 第四,進一步保障業主喺業主大會嘅召開議程、取消、延期或者暫停等會議程 27 序上嘅權益,同埋確保法團係可以依法去行事,包括係賦予呢一個賦權--賦予權力 28 畀呢個民青局嘅局長,係去指派指定人士去召開業主大會,咁呢個亦都係可以有效 29 係去減低一啲會議嘅延誤。 30 第五,就係會加強個主管當局嘅權力,喺特殊情況下亦都可以去介入、去協 31 助。 32 另外,第六方面,就係商務及經濟發展局亦都同競委會合作,正正從多個角度 33 去研究《競爭條例》嘅立法修訂需要。咁呢個昨天競委會嘅口頭陳詞裏面亦都有提 34 及,咁我亦都唔會喺度詳細再重複,即係包括佢哋提及即係會唔會係考慮將部分嘅 35 行為刑事化,以及就係將一啲嘅可能係一啲民事嘅程序,或者係嗰個嘅一啲嘅罰款 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第二十九天

48 本謄本由 Epiq 編製,於聽證會中使用的部分英文詞句由獨立委員會秘書處補充。 嘅嗰個舉證責任,係將佢係清楚列為喺個民事嘅舉證責任,令到係更加容易去舉 1 證,同埋增加個阻嚇性等等。咁亦都建造業嘅議會亦都係制訂緊一個大型樓宇維修 2 業界嘅良好作業嘅指引,佢哋預計係會喺2026 年內係會公布。即係呢種種其實都 3 係希望可以去針對一啲職權範圍(二)嘅議題裏面嘅問題,係儘量係去減低或者係 4 去杜絕佢哋嘅。咁以上就係政府就職權範圍(二)議題嘅一啲嘅口頭嘅陳詞,其他 5 我就會倚賴番我哋嘅書面陳詞。 6 咁最後嘅第八部分,就係呢個一個總結。咁首先我可以喺度講嘅,就係針對一 7 啲嘅承建商同埋專業人士,我可以用四個字喺度講,就係「證據確立」,喺今次嘅 8 案件裏--或者今次呢個嘅研訊裏面。因為從今次嘅聽證會嘅眾多文件、證人供詞, 9 以至係證供,都係顯示獲委以首要嘅責任嘅專業人士同埋承建商,佢哋係濫用咗旨 10 在保障公眾嘅機制,亦都係辜負咗政府、規管架構以及市民對佢哋嘅信任同埋期 11 望,並且佢哋透過一啲蓄意嘅違法行為,濫用機制同埋嚴重嘅疏忽,造就咗呢一場 12 嘅大火。呢啲嘅私營持份者嘅行為,即係呢啲嘅專業人士同埋承建商,佢哋係形成 13 一個互相配合、互相強化嘅違法行為模式,使到每一層應該保障公眾嘅安全嘅私營 14 責任同時失效。 15 面對住一啲咁樣嘅行為,政府坦誠現行嘅規管同埋監督架構係需要加強嗰個監 16 管嘅強度,同埋喺呢個精簡規管程序之間要再重新去尋找一個平衡,亦都接受現行 17 嘅規管同埋監督架構係存在弱點以及可改善嘅空間,特別係喺專業自律制度嘅監 18 管,審查--審核同埋抽查嘅密度同埋深度,程序指引嘅具體性、跨部門溝通,以至 19 科技應用等等。 20 兩個獨立專家嘅團隊、委員會嘅專家同埋專責小組嘅專家,佢哋亦都匯聚喺一 21 個核心嘅原則,風險評估係應該成為日後規管嘅組織性原則。 22 政府自火災之後亦都有迅速採取行動,就多個關鍵範疇,檢討措施同做法,主 23 動推行全面嘅改善措施,喺現有改善措施之上,政府當然亦會繼續檢視並積極推行 24 進一步嘅改善措施,以處理委員會適時識別嘅問題。 25 與此同時,我哋亦都留意到委員會法律團隊建議,必須要以實際可行性為基 26 礎,政府係會繼續秉持呢啲考慮,並喺收到委員會嘅報告嘅時候,會係--同埋建議 27 嘅時候,會積極同埋儘快去考慮同埋落實。 28 最後,政府懇請獨立委員會按其認為適當嘅方式,根據證據作出事實嘅裁斷同 29 埋建議,咁政府係會承諾對獨立委員會嘅建議作出實質嘅回應同埋跟進嘅。而我亦 30 都喺度再次係會代表政府向各個因為今次大埔宏福苑火災失去至親或者家園嘅家 31 庭,致以最深切嘅慰問。喺度再一次感謝主席同埋兩位委員。 32

33 15 時36 分孫靖乾資深大律師代表政府相關決策局與部門結案陳詞完畢 34

35 陸啟康法官:唔該晒,孫資深大律師。咁我哋今日就完咗政府嗰部分,咁我哋聽日就到我哋 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第二十九天

49 本謄本由 Epiq 編製,於聽證會中使用的部分英文詞句由獨立委員會秘書處補充。 委員會嘅律師團隊嘅陳詞,咁我哋就會押後到明天嘅十點鐘,我哋會繼續。 1

2 15 時36 分聽證會押後 3 (聽證會將於2026 年7 月17 日10 時00 分繼續) 4

FD06262 | 2025_港澳台_香港宏福苑大火_Transcript-(Chinese)_20260717.pdf

分类:06_境外及港澳台调查报告 | 年份:2025 | 地域:香港 | 严重程度: | 场所: | 起火原因: | 来源格式:pdf

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第三十天

本謄本由 Epiq 編製,於聽證會中使用的部分英文詞句由獨立委員會秘書處補充。 就大埔宏福苑火災成立的獨立委員會

聽證會

高等法院原訟法庭陸啟康法官 陳健波議員 歐陽伯權博士

日期:

第三十天 2026 年7 月17 日

杜淦堃資深大律師、俞匡庭大律師、李澍桓大律師、馮天榮大律師、張天 風大律師及李俊軒大律師代表獨立委員會

卓元暢資深大律師、孫靖乾資深大律師、陸栩然大律師、劉逸冲大律師及 胡穎雯大律師代表政府

阮文躍大律師代表市區重建局

律政司代表

競爭事務委員會代表

譚俊傑大律師代表宏褔苑居民

何卓衡大律師及楊志聰大律師代表置邦興業有限公司

柯愷欣大律師代表宏福苑業主立案法團第十二屆管理委員會

宏泰消防工程有限公司代表

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第三十天

1 本謄本由 Epiq 編製,於聽證會中使用的部分英文詞句由獨立委員會秘書處補充。

以下內容乃聽證會數碼錄音謄本 1

2 10 時00 分聽證會恢復 3

4 10 時00 分杜淦堃資深大律師代表獨立委員會開始結案陳詞 5

6 陸啟康法官:係,杜資深大律師。 7 杜淦堃資深大律師:主席--兩位委員,喺我開始我哋最後嘅陳詞之前,我有兩點係想喺呢度 8 先提出嘅。因為我哋係委員會嘅代表律師,我哋覆蓋嘅題目個範圍係比其他涉事方 9 廣,所以你見到我哋嘅書面陳詞係有600 幾頁,唔可能喺今日嘅時間就每一個範疇 10 都好全面咁去解釋,所以有好多範疇其實我哋只可以扼要咁去講,但係希望大家明 11 白,每一個市民、每一個單位向我哋提交嘅資料、文件,我哋都係有細心咁去睇 12 過,所以雖然我今日唔可以就每一位宏福苑嘅居民提供畀我哋嘅資料好詳盡咁去分 13 析,但係我可以好確確實實咁同佢哋講,我哋係冇忽略佢哋嘅感受同埋佢哋嘅睇 14 法。第二,亦都係今日用嘅時間可能會比較長,所以可能今日我哋係要會用一整天 15 嘅。 16 陸啟康法官:我亦都喺度想你講呢,就係我睇過你嘅最後陳詞,其實我發覺有幾個嘅章節, 17 特別喺呢一個即係關於維修工程之前嘅關係,嗰日維修工程地盤嗰個狀況,同埋當 18 日發生嘅事,同埋呢啲嘢都係基本上報告寫得--你哋個陳詞非常之詳細,我哋都預 19 計可能喺個報告書度,其實我哋都會--因為呢啲事實都係冇爭議嘅,我哋都會喺個 20 報告書入面係列番呢係就呢幾個層面,即係嗰日發生嘅時序,一啲火災發生嘅原 21 因,或者係令到--因為呢啲都唔係爭議嘅。 22 杜淦堃資深大律師:明白。 23 陸啟康法官:咁如果唔係爭議呢,咁嗰時候呢,我哋好多時我哋發覺嗰個陳詞嘅內容係非常 24 之豐富,亦都係好詳盡嘅,我亦都會喺度預告一下,其實有幾個章節我哋會用呢一 25 個委員會律師嘅嗰個事實嘅陳述係寫番落個報告書度。 26 杜淦堃資深大律師:知道,主席,我哋亦都今日會精簡咁樣樣去同大家解釋一次。事不宜 27 遲,我哋而家正式開始。大家都知道喺2025 年11 月26 日,宏福苑嘅一場大火 28 係香港有史以嚟最嚴重嘅災難之一。事隔七個月,呢場災難嘅規模,168 人嘅喪 29 生,一個幾千人生活嘅社區一夜之間毀於一旦,直至今日我哋都係難以想像、難以 30 接受。委員會喺過去二十幾日裏面聽到嘅證供,我哋亦都唔會忘記。失去至親嘅家 31 屬,冒住生命危險入火場嘅消防員,仲有啲街坊喺佢哋鄰居最需要嘅時候打開門收 32 留咗其他宏福苑嘅居民,呢啲令人心碎嘅證據提醒我哋委員會工作嘅莊嚴,咁大規 33 模嘅災難本來就唔應該發生,以後亦都絕對唔可以再發生,社會理所當然咁期望真 34

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第三十天

2 本謄本由 Epiq 編製,於聽證會中使用的部分英文詞句由獨立委員會秘書處補充。 相要清楚,責任要有人承擔,教訓必須從速汲取,措施必須快速落實。委員會嘅工 1 作補償唔到喪失嘅寶貴生命,但係我哋希望委員會調查嘅結果同建議可以為受影響 2 嘅每一位帶嚟一啲嘅交代。委員會聽取過超過70 位事實證人嘅口頭證供,包括居 3 民、承建商、物管職員、前線消防員以及相關政府部門同法定機構嘅人員,喺起火 4 原因同蔓延方面,委員會亦都收到大量嘅專家證據,一邊係政府成立嘅跨部門火災 5 調查專組,聯同佢哋委任嘅袁國傑教授,另一邊係委員會委任嘅(English 6 Spoken)同埋江黎明教授,佢哋獨立咁進行分析,而有關嘅重點我哋幾個禮拜前 7 係喺聽證會度聽過,我一陣間都會略略咁去介紹。 8 我重申主席對每一位協助過委員會人士嘅感謝,特別係嗰啲企出嚟作供嘅居 9 民,有啲哀悼緊至親,有啲甚至乎喺聽證會度自責,雖然悲劇嘅發生其實根本上唔 10 係佢哋嘅錯,委員會今日可以查明宏福苑嘅真相,好大程度係因為佢哋嘅堅持。火 11 災之前,佢哋堅持投訴,火災之後佢哋堅持作證。有好少數嘅人拒絕協助委員會, 12 佢哋擺明居馬咁抗拒一個明顯符合公眾利益嘅調查,令人遺撼。但係佢哋唔合作, 13 唔代表我哋束手無策,佢哋喺維修工程入面角色同責任,文件證據寫得清清楚楚, 14 亦都冇認真爭拗嘅餘地。有需要嘅話,我哋唔止會懇請委員會對佢哋作出不利嘅推 15 論,喺最終報告裏面亦會記低佢哋嘅所作所為。亦都有啲人士冇喺聽證會度作供, 16 但係佢哋有應委員會嘅邀請,同佢哋有關嘅指控提供咗書面證據,當中包括王碧嬌 17 女士同梅少峰先生,現時喺委員會面前嘅證據冇顯示到佢哋有份參與圍標或者反競 18 爭行為,但係重要嘅係任何人--任何個人嘅民事或者刑事責任都唔係委員會嘅職權 19 範圍之內。喺佢哋嘅書面回應連同針對佢哋嘅指稱,喺我哋嘅書面陳詞裏面亦都有 20 一一列出,稍候我都會略略咁去交代。 21 喺我去解釋或者去總結今次調查結論之前,我想再一次強調委員會法律團隊角 22 色嘅問題,喺今次嘅調查裏面,法律團隊並冇任何預定嘅立場,我哋嘅工作係將搜 23 集到嘅資料、證據用有系統而且公平、公開、公正嘅原則底下全盤展示畀委員會考 24 慮。我哋知道公眾必然關注委員會就所涉及嘅議題上面嘅睇法同埋委員會將來嘅建 25 議。正因為咁,我必須再一次解釋,而家委員會法律團隊所提交嘅總結陳詞入面嘅 26 所有睇法、評論同埋所作出嘅建議,通通都係我哋法律團隊向你哋嘅陳述。作為日 27 後委員會去考慮相關議題,並且撰寫報告嘅一啲資料。所以公眾必須謹記明白我哋 28 而家嘅書面同口頭陳詞嘅內容並唔代表主席同兩位委員最後嘅既訂立場。 29 喺以下我想略略咁帶大家去--或者去解釋一下我哋今次嘅結論。綜合所有證 30 據,我哋認為結論好清楚,宏福苑呢場火絕對可以防範得到,但冇被防範。亦都可 31 以預見得到,但冇被預見,證據清楚顯示成個樓宇維修工程嘅制度從上而下都有漏 32 洞,而每一個漏洞對火勢急速蔓延,對史無前例嘅傷亡都有各自嘅因果關係。至於 33 唔同持份者嘅角色,以宏業為首嘅承建商明知故犯,違反規例,喺宏福苑外牆用非 34 阻燃物資,製造咗一個巨大嘅火警危險。佢哋為咗節省成本,並且一次又一次蓄意 35 咁樣樣去欺騙政府部門去逃避監管,工人工地食煙佢哋唔理,可燃嘅廢料堆積喺棚 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第三十天

3 本謄本由 Epiq 編製,於聽證會中使用的部分英文詞句由獨立委員會秘書處補充。 架度佢哋冇去清,更離譜嘅係為咗方便工人出入,佢哋喺居民逃生嘅主要嘅防煙樓 1 梯開設生口,破壞咗樓梯嘅防護結構。 2 對處理消防裝置嘅時候,宏業搵咗一間註冊消防承辦商中華發展純粹用嚟遞交 3 文件畀消防處,一次現場審查都冇做過。佢哋嘅大律師喺星期三上高亦都講到實際 4 上佢用“(English Spoken)”呢個字,中華發展佢哋同意其實係一個橡皮圖 5 章,宏業再搵宏福苑物業管理公司置邦幫手做消防水缸嘅放水,但置邦嘅職員根本 6 就冇資格做,結果置邦嘅羅師傅熄咗火警警報系統,而佢完全唔知道自己犯咗一個 7 幾嚴重嘅錯誤。警報系統熄咗,另一間喺宏福苑做嘢嘅承辦商宏泰消防喺火警前冇 8 耐其實已經見到,佢哋冇認真咁樣去查,亦都冇通知消防處。結果係直至火警嗰 9 日,全苑嘅消防警鐘形同虛設。呢一切本來應該由法團聘用,負責獨立監督宏業嘅 10 鴻毅把關,令人遺憾嘅係鴻毅乜都冇做,更惡劣嘅係鴻毅搵嚟嗰位法定嘅監督工程 11 嘅註冊人員吳躍先生亦都係一個紙上嘅RI,吳躍先生,唔好意思,佢收錢係為咗簽 12 名,從來冇認真咁樣去履行佢嘅職責。呢班承建商同顧問視消防安全如無物,宏福 13 苑嘅居民真金白銀買佢哋嘅專業,結果換嚟嘅係畀佢哋辜負。呢一連串嘅失當結果 14 係宏福苑每一道用嚟保護人命嘅消防防線喺火警當日全部失效。 15 政府嗰邊又點呢?喺講各部門情況之前要幾點可能要對政府公道一啲,喺呢度 16 強調,第一,正如主席6 月22 日講過,政府同其他嘅執法部門喺今次嘅調查裏面 17 係有全面咁樣去配合,主動提交咗好多可能對佢哋自己不利嘅資料。驗棚網嘅影 18 片、部門內部嘅溝通紀錄在內,正如我哋書面陳詞第11 段講,我哋認同主席對協 19 助調查各方嘅感謝,包括政府傳召嘅證人,好多時佢哋係有坦白承認不足。我哋以 20 下指出嘅缺失好多正正係由呢啲資料裏面睇到。第二,我哋亦都樂見政府部門喺書 21 面陳詞裏面亦都同意一系列嘅監管問題同埋弱點。大家對問題喺邊度其實係有相當 22 嘅共識。第三,我哋喺第8 章同埋第10 章亦都係用咗基於政府近月已經公佈嘅一 23 系列措施去向委員會建議可以改進嘅地方。今次,佢哋係有從速咁去檢討同埋提出 24 一啲可行嘅做法,對委員會工作亦都係有好大嘅幫助。雖然係咁,事實亦都證明政 25 府各部門嘅機制同埋運作亦都有環環緊扣嘅不足。好多制度性嘅問題唔係今時今日 26 先至存在,而係一路冇被發現,遺憾嘅係係要等到有一場咁大型嘅災難先至令到呢 27 啲問題浮現。 28 政府制訂咗一個依賴承建商自我監管嘅誠信制度,陳詞裏面叫做“(English 29 Spoken)”,我哋認為實際上係有非常大嘅漏洞,表格收咗,證書冇核實,有啲 30 巡邏預先通知,承建商就有機會魚目混珠,監管機構咁信任被監管嘅人,結果就係 31 明顯嘅火警隱患冇人去查。就算有居民主動投訴,好多時都係冇部門跟進。本來有 32 充分機會糾正嘅隱患冇好好咁把握。我哋並唔係話有關部門係今次大火嘅始作俑 33 者,但係市民以為制度可以保護佢哋,呢個期望係相當合理,但係似乎呢個同現實 34 有相當大嘅落差。 35 代表政府嘅大律師琴日講到我哋書面陳詞第859 段可能有欠公允,第859 段 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第三十天

4 本謄本由 Epiq 編製,於聽證會中使用的部分英文詞句由獨立委員會秘書處補充。 講到監管者嘅做法令到行騙者有機可乘,我哋並唔係將監管機構同被騙者相提並 1 論,蓄意欺詐嘅責任,我哋喺書面陳詞第6 章已經清楚咁寫出嚟,係喺有關承建商 2 同埋其他公司或者個人身上。我哋亦都向委員會明確咁表示,係需要予以最強烈嘅 3 譴責。但係喺陳詞第859 段講嘅係另一個問題,就係點解呢啲壞分子有機會得逞。 4 我哋對於呢啲問題嘅回答亦都係基於一啲我哋喺聽證會聽到嘅事實。 5 對於呢啲證據同埋事實,政府嘅書面陳詞其實已經坦白咁樣樣去承認自身監管 6 架構存在系統性上高嘅運作弱點,包括過分依賴專業人士自我監管,假設佢哋嘅合 7 規而唔核實,審查同埋實地嘅巡查範圍同埋頻率有限,有某啲建築材料嘅訂明標準 8 不足,部門之間溝通有代改善,成個監管架構根本唔係設計嚟應付一啲各方有合謀 9 嘅隱瞞。作為設計同埋營運監督嘅一方,制度容許咗呢場火警嘅發生,我哋認為有 10 關部門要負上一份嘅責任。 11 代表政府嘅大律師琴日亦都提到依賴承建商自我監管嘅制度係多年以嚟一路咁 12 使用,委員會唔應該用事後嘅角度審視,但係今次重大災難嘅發生,委員會係正正 13 需要以事後個角度去檢討,考慮火災研究揭示咗咩嘢制度上高嘅問題。我哋當然明 14 白政府設立嘅監管架構有佢嘅邏輯,甚至乎當時係有立法會小心咁去審議,但我哋 15 而家去認真檢討嘅係當時嘅設計到今日係咪都係恰當,同時政府分別沿用一啲例如 16 喺1960、1990、2021 年代設立嘅監管制度,一直冇與時並進都係一個問題。 17 琴日亦都提到我哋嘅書面陳詞可能冇釐清直接責任同監督責任,呢個我哋唔認 18 同。書面陳詞嘅架構本身其實係咁劃分嘅,第6 章關於直接造成火警危險嘅承判商 19 責任同埋顧問,我哋用咗唔少段落明確提到宏業、鴻毅需要負主要責任,英文係 20 “(English Spoken)”。主席,有關嘅陳詞喺我哋嘅書面陳詞嘅第736 段、 21 744、768、774 同781 段可以搵到。至於第7 章監管,關於監管部門,章題已經 22 寫明喺監督層面嘅責任,作為設計同埋營運成套規管制度嘅一方,政府就今次火災 23 需要承擔我哋嘅講法係一部分嘅責任。雖然承建商、顧問等壞分子嘅行為係今次火 24 災嘅直接成因,需要負主要責任。我哋相信政府做好監管,避免大型災難,保護市 25 民性命亦都係責無旁貸。 26 仲有一點令今次嘅結論更加沉重,嚴格嚟講,宏福苑呢種大型外牆急速向上蔓 27 延嘅火災唔係史上第一次,(English Spoken)亦都喺聽證會上高親口同我哋 28 講,宏福苑其實唔係呢類型火災嘅第一次,但係佢嘅嚴重程度係史無前例,佢提到 29 1987 年倫敦國王十字站嘅大火,31 人死亡;1996 年嘉利大廈嘅大火,41 人死 30 亡;2017 年英國格蘭菲爾大廈大火,72 人死亡。 31 喺高樓大廈外牆用可燃物料嘅危險,火勢沿煙囪式嘅結構向上蔓延嘅風險,警 32 號一次又一次咁響過,但係呢啲警示似乎冇人理會。宏福苑八座嘅外牆,包括每座 33 轉角位嗰個半圍封嘅光井被可燃物完全包圍。火喺光井裏入面以前所未有嘅速度直 34 沖上天,變成一條嘅火龍,全苑32 條光井,12 條出現咗垂直嘅火龍,令火勢一發 35 不可收拾,連接光井嘅防煙樓梯,大家都知道開咗生口,濃煙從外面灌入樓梯,截 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第三十天

5 本謄本由 Epiq 編製,於聽證會中使用的部分英文詞句由獨立委員會秘書處補充。 斷咗居民嘅逃生路線。當然仲有居民懵然不知嘅係火警警報系統一早被不恰當咁去 1 關掉咗,令到佢哋嘅逃生時間大大減少。 2 主席、兩位委員,大家可能睇過我哋嘅書面陳詞一共十一章,今朝亦都係喺委 3 員會嘅網站上載。今日嘅口頭陳詞目的係向公眾扼要咁去交代第2 至第12 章嘅重 4 點,為咗方便理解我哋今日嘅次序同書面陳詞可能有少少唔同,一共分為六部分, 5 第一部分係書面陳詞嘅第3 至第4 章,場火點樣起、點解蔓延得咁快、點解會有咁 6 多人命傷亡。第二部分係陳詞嘅第5 章,火災當日嘅緊急應變,包括消防員何偉豪 7 殉職嘅事件。第三部分係書面陳詞嘅第2 同埋第6 章,維修工程各方,承建商、顧 8 問、專業人士做過乜嘢,責任誰屬。第四部分,即係書面陳詞嘅第7 章,各政府部 9 門嘅角色同埋責任。第五部分係書面陳詞第8 章,消防安全方面嘅建議。而第六部 10 分,即係我哋書面陳詞第9 同第10 章,圍標同相關不當行為以及呢方面嘅建議。 11 首先我哋而家開始第一部分,而家我哋想將11 月26 日嘅情況用一個簡單嘅方 12 法去重溫,好快咁由頭到尾行一次。大家螢光幕上高睇到係一條時間線,用一個資 13 訊圖表嘅方式去處理,有關嘅模型係俞匡庭大律師用人工智能協助底下準備嘅。佢 14 哋會顯示到宏福苑八座個位置,每一步關鍵嘅時間,事實同書面陳詞嘅出處,我哋 15 都會儘量同步咁去顯示,每一條火柱、每一道被封死嘅門、每一座樓梯幾時佈滿濃 16 煙,都會喺呢個文件上高睇到。 17 我哋首先講第一步,14:30 至14:40,嗰個橙點就係大火嘅火源大家見到, 18 宏昌閣104 至105 號室出面嘅平台,14:33 開始,單車棚上高嗰個鏡頭已經影 19 到濃煙係從嗰個位置飄出嚟。 20 去到14:42,第一點火光屏幕上高嘅說話,係生口上高嘅閉路電視影到有工 21 人講「喂,邊個食煙,煙頭焫著咗啲嘢」,我哋見到工友照開工,直至到14:46 22 先至驚覺走避。 23 第三步14:50,到呢個時候有人報警,報警嘅唔係地盤工人,而係一位途人 24 葉輝先生,佢喺元洲仔嗰面見到個火,打999,大家都會睇過嗰段嘅片段同埋街坊 25 喺錄音裏面錄到「點解冇警鐘?搞錯呀」。 26 跟住去到第四步就係14:56,消防5 分05 秒到場,佢哋到場嗰一刻面對已 27 經係一個平台,但係已經唔係一個小嘅火源。 28 第五步接報後七分鐘,第一條火柱喺我哋證據裏面嘅F1 嗰個位置出現,由光 29 井地下直捲頂樓,一分鐘左右已經燒到頂。同一時間著火嘅竹枝跌落嚟堆喺後門出 30 口,宏昌閣嘅樓梯喺嗰陣時其實已經滿布咗濃煙。 31 第六步,14:58,同一分鐘,火已經飛緊去第二座宏泰閣嘅天台。14:58 已 32 經有冒煙同埋有啲碎屑係跌落嚟,去到呢一刻全苑嘅警鐘一下都冇響過。 33 第七步係去到15:02,火警升到三級,差唔多同一間,即係大概15:02 至 34 15:04,宏昌閣第二條火柱F2 冒起,大概15:05 宏昌閣正門都被封死,所以見 35 到宏昌閣當時其實係前後兩條出路都被封咗。呢個喺報警之後唔夠十五分鐘之內發 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第三十天

6 本謄本由 Epiq 編製,於聽證會中使用的部分英文詞句由獨立委員會秘書處補充。 生,全部切斷。稍候講逃生時間嗰陣,大家會再聽到我哋去講最多十四分鐘呢一個 1 數。 2 到第八步係去到15:09,宏昌閣第三條火柱冒起,同一時間第三座,即係宏 3 盛閣嘅棚架都已經著咗火。 4 到第九步係15:11 至15:25,宏新閣、宏建閣嘅棚架相繼著火,大家會記 5 得隨風飄散嘅火屑就係咁樣一座一座咁傳落去。 6 到第十步15:16 至15:17,宏泰閣兩條火柱喺15:16 一分鐘之內相繼冒 7 起,15:17 宏泰閣嘅樓梯其實已經滿布咗濃煙。 8 到第十一步係15:18 至15:30,宏泰閣嘅兩條出路好快都封咗。15:20 9 正門畀跌落嚟畀棚架、燃燒物同埋雜物封閉咗。15:30,後門都封埋。 10 到第十二步,15:34,火警當時升至四級,火已經燒到第五座宏新閣。 11 到第十三步係16:06 至16:11,宏新閣嘅火柱C1 喺90 秒內其實已經去到 12 31 層,10 分鐘後宏道閣正面嘅光井亦都出現火柱。到16:42,我哋見到宏盛亦 13 都充滿咗大量嘅濃煙,16:22 就見到火柱,去到16:36 宏新閣嘅第二條火柱亦 14 都出現。之後如果我哋睇到16:43,宏新閣第三條火柱出現。換句話講,喺兩小 15 時之內,十一條火柱,喺16:45 宏新閣嘅成排竹棚亦都係跌咗落嚟。到18: 16 22,火警升至五級,係2008 年以嚟香港第一次。10 分鐘之後18:32,宏仁閣 17 出現第十二條火柱,亦都係最後一條,八座之中宏志閣完全冇事,宏建閣棚架著 18 火,但係冇火柱。 19 到最後一步,第十九步,場火燒足43 小時,係1 月28 日朝早10:18 先至 20 撲滅,螢幕上每座嘅顏色深淺表示咗內部嘅損毀程度,而每座上高嘅亦都顯示咗有 21 關大廈嘅死亡數字,最終有168 名人士罹難。 22 呢條時間線上高每一個時間、每一件事都有喺書面陳詞同證據裏面列出,喺屏 23 幕上高我哋都逐步咁講咗。而家我哋想抽幾樣嘢出嚟深入啲咁去講,包括火警嘅起 24 因,點解燒得咁猛烈,每一座居民嚟講究竟其實佢哋係有幾多時間去逃生嘅呢? 25 起火嘅原因同蔓延嘅模式,當時我哋開案陳詞雖然有提過,但係當時冇專家證 26 據嘅分析,大家都會記得幾個禮拜前我哋聽咗,跨部門專組同袁國傑教授一隊,委 27 員會嘅兩位專家另一隊,兩隊消防工程專家雖然獨自咁樣去--獨立咁樣去研究,但 28 係相信喺呢方面嘅結論係冇爭議嘅,起火位置其實係直指宏昌閣104 同105 號出 29 面嘅光井平台,起火嘅原因同埋--嘅火源同埋時間,我哋亦都交代咗。 30 我當日喺盤問嘅時候有向政府化驗所嘅李詠文博士指出,除咗104 同埋105 31 號光井位置,我哋問過佢搵唔搵到其他地方係可能係呢一次火警嘅源頭,大家會記 32 得佢嘅答案係「其實係搵唔到」。石屎剝落留低嘅痕跡話畀我哋知,火係由光井燒 33 入單位,唔係由單位燒出嚟。起火原因佢哋亦都排除咗其他常見嘅原因,燒焊、自 34 燃、電力故障、氣體洩漏、縱火,證據上高最有可能似乎真係一個煙頭跌咗落平台 35 上高,引燃咗喺嗰度嘅紙皮。呢一個結論亦都有物證支持,調查人員喺挖掘起火地 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第三十天

7 本謄本由 Epiq 編製,於聽證會中使用的部分英文詞句由獨立委員會秘書處補充。 點嗰度,大家會記得搵到幾個煙頭,一個燒燶咗嘅煙頭嘅殘骸,同埋一啲燒燶咗嘅 1 紙皮,至於地盤有工人食煙嘅證據,我相信我哋唔使再去重溫。 2 袁國傑教授仲有一點好重要嘅,起火嗰一刻差不多係冇人察覺到,佢只係有啲 3 滴落咁樣去滴出嚟,所以火警起初發生嘅時候極有可能係一個好細嘅火種。 4 當然,大家會問嘅就係之後點發展成一場大火,大家喺時間線見到個火柱喺12 5 條裏面,有11 條發生嘅時間係喺兩小時之內,用(English Spoken )嘅原 6 話,呢種火勢急速向上蔓延,對於重大樓宇結構嘅火災嚟講係前所未見。啲火噴湧 7 而上,好似火山咁樣樣,係佢嘅講法。座與座之間主要係靠隨風飄散嘅火屑同埋呢 8 啲碎片,乘住當日每小時14 公里嘅風勢,當時係吹東至東南風,一座一座咁傳, 9 呢個亦都解答到喺時間線最後嗰個問題,宏志閣其實係喺上風位,火屑吹唔到佢。 10 宏建閣處於一個迴流區,火屑飛到佢嗰度其實已經凍咗,所以點解佢哋受嘅影響係 11 喺八座裏面算係咁低。至於點解火勢咁猛烈,專家亦都分析咗呢個同佢哋係一個半 12 煙囪,包住成座大廈,塞滿咗燃燒物嘅包括棚網、帆布、發泡膠呢啲可燃物,為火 13 龍提供咗大量嘅燃料。 14 專家實驗嘅細節,我哋唔會再重溫。但係大家會記得以下嘅結論,喺四川嘅全 15 尺寸實驗裏面,大家都會記得同一個棚,用非阻燃嘅網燒出嚟嘅能量係用阻燃網嘅 16 27 倍,因為佢本身係其實係唔易燒到啲竹枝,所以如果係用阻燃網嘅話,個效果會 17 完全唔一樣。 18 根據電腦模型所做出嚟嘅結論,火勢嘅峰值係35 兆瓦,宏福苑實際用非阻燃 19 棚網去燒嘅話就係700 兆瓦。我哋亦都問過袁國傑教授,假設當日所有因素不變, 20 唯一改變係棚網、帆布全部係用阻燃,宏昌閣嘅光井係會唔會出現咁猛烈嘅火龍, 21 袁教授嘅答案係「基於我哋嘅科學分析,係唔會嘅」。 22 主席你會記得你問咗一個問題「非阻燃棚網本身就係令火龍發生嘅一個非常重 23 大嘅因素」,袁教授當日係同意你呢個講法,委員會嘅專家亦都同意袁教授嘅講 24 法,可能佢哋措詞上高係多咗一份嘅謹慎,但係佢哋同意棚網如果用咗有阻燃效能 25 嘅棚網或者帆布,最初起火嘅時候可能自行熄滅,而火勢嘅蔓延規模會細好多,唔 26 會有咁多大廈著火。當然,(English Spoken)強調咗「可能」兩個字,佢亦 27 都講--喺佢嘅口供裏面講咗,當中可能係有啲不確定性,但係無論邊種講法結論都 28 係一個細火同一場168 人喪生嘅大火之間,好可能就係𧶄咗棚網。 29 非阻燃嘅物料仲有一種特性,大家會記得令到呢場火沒完沒了嘅,熔咗嘅棚網 30 同發泡膠係會一滴一滴咁滴落嚟,可以喺光井其實火勢減退之後50 分鐘至兩個鐘 31 再次引起第二次嘅燃燒起火,所以隨風飄動嘅火屑物先可以一座傳一座,講到呢一 32 度,大家都會記得,專家亦都提到其實呢啲咁嘅資料,如果有詳細咁去研究過往嘅 33 大火,亦都可能會有一啲嘅啟示。 34 之後,我哋想講嘅就係一啲可能大家喺之前冇留意嘅數字,點解會有咁嚴重嘅 35 傷亡,答案要係由時間講起,呢部分嘅分析其實我哋綜合咗閉路電視、居民嘅證供 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第三十天

8 本謄本由 Epiq 編製,於聽證會中使用的部分英文詞句由獨立委員會秘書處補充。 同埋專家證人嘅證供去估算。至於大火入屋嘅路徑、光井入面嘅火龍,首先係燃燒 1 貼住光井客窗嘅玻璃嘅,如果大家記得,宏昌閣係由8 樓到31 樓,每一層5 號單 2 位客廳玻璃全部都爆晒,所以562 個嚴重燒毀嘅單位入面,有518 個係貼住光 3 井,當火燒入單位,會燒穿大門出走廊,再跳去其他嘅單位。 4 對於逃生嚟講,當然大家知道最致命嘅唔係火,係煙,而大家亦都聽過,琴日 5 孫大律師亦都提過有關嘅消防概念,可用疏散時間(English Spoken)同埋所 6 屬疏散時間(English Spoken)。簡單講,走火通道由幾時開始行唔到,決定 7 居民有幾多時間走。逐座睇樓梯幾時佈滿濃煙,地下幾時被封,頭先嘅時間軸其實 8 都列咗出嚟,全部都係出自我哋書面嘅陳詞嘅第466 段,呢啲估算主要靠閉路電視 9 同證人證供,佢哋唔係完整嘅消防工程可行性分析,未必百分百準確,但係我哋覺 10 得已經足夠解釋點解各座嘅傷亡有咁大嘅差距。 11 喺呢度仲有一個補充,呢啲時間講係走火通道幾時行唔到,大家都知道單位入 12 面其實係有唔少嘅居民係可以逃過一劫嘅,呢個當然係要睇有關單位嘅情況,大家 13 記得有啲居民可能係比較幸運,加上臨時嘅冷靜同埋佢哋嘅急智避開咗濃煙,一直 14 捱到消防員嚟救佢哋。 15 講番各座居民有幾多時間可以逃生,由消防14:51 接報計起,到地下出入口 16 被跌落嚟嘅燃燒物封閉,宏昌閣居民其實最多係得14 分鐘逃生,宏泰閣最多39 分 17 鐘,實際時間可能更短,點解我咁講?因為其實樓梯畀樓梯攻陷,係比出入口封死 18 嘅時間係較早。宏昌閣樓梯喺14:58 已經佈滿咗濃煙,即係其實係接報後嘅7 分 19 鐘。如果樓梯啲窗全部係防火窗,宏昌閣嘅居民本來應該係有多7 分鐘可以走,直 20 至到15:05 正門被封。宏泰閣嘅樓梯喺15:17 年佈滿濃煙--15:17 時,如果 21 樓梯嘅窗係冇被改成生口,樓梯根本係可以安全通行,樓梯冇煙嘅話,行後樓梯走 22 嘅居民本來係會有多13 分鐘,直至到15:30 後門先被封死。行前樓梯嘅都會有 23 多4 分鐘,直至到正門喺15:21 畀火焰吞噬。喺樓梯罹難嘅人之中,如果樓梯係 24 多幾分鐘嘅話,其實喺樓梯遇難嘅人係有機會走得甩。 25 當然,警鐘唔響,窗門畀發泡膠遮住,居民連開始計時都唔知。如果警報系統 26 係冇熄嘅話,根據證人嘅口供,宏昌閣警鐘最遲喺14:54 其實響過。宏泰閣嘅警 27 鐘--唔係,sorry,14:54 係有撳響。宏泰閣嘅警鐘一見到火勢由宏昌閣蔓延過 28 嚟,大約喺15:00 就應該響,咁樣宏泰閣嘅居民就應該會再有15 至20 分鐘逃 29 走,即係換句話講,如果火警鐘係冇被閂掉嘅話,喺呢兩座大廈,警鐘係會被撳 30 響,而佢哋係會多啲時間走。 31 大家都聽過一啲歷歷在目嘅證供,包括宏昌閣808 號室羅曉琪女士憶述佢同媽 32 媽嘅最後一段對話,嗰個時間係15:03,嗰陣起火之後半個鐘唔夠。宏昌閣2701 33 室,蘇曉峯先生嘅媽媽喺15:07 打畀佢,話同爸爸落緊樓,冇幾耐佢話佢聽到媽 34 媽講「今次死嘞」,之後我哋再聽唔到電話裏面嘅聲音。當然我哋亦都冇唔記得喺 35 宏泰閣嘅白瑞蓮女士,佢留低逐家逐戶咁叫街坊走,佢自己不幸罹難。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第三十天

9 本謄本由 Epiq 編製,於聽證會中使用的部分英文詞句由獨立委員會秘書處補充。 大家都知道嗰晚警鐘係有響過嘅,大家會記得林文欣先生喺危急嘅關頭走番去 1 消防泵房,其實係手動咁開番總掣。宏仁閣同宏新閣嘅警鐘曾經短暫咁響過,但係 2 全苑約450 份收番嚟嘅問卷裏面,宏道、宏建、宏泰、宏昌、宏盛、宏志,冇一個 3 填問卷嘅居民話聽過火警鐘。 4 傷亡數字亦都話到畀我哋聽一啲嘅資料,168 人喪生,79 人受傷,罹難者最 5 細係七個月大,最年長98 歲,114 位係65 歲以上嘅人士,37 個家庭失去兩位以 6 上嘅家人,仲有一位當然係英勇殉職嘅消防員何偉豪。時間線最後嗰版大家會見 7 到,宏昌閣86 人,宏泰閣82 人,合共163 人,呢啲佔全部罹難者嘅97%,宏昌 8 閣嘅死者之中,57 位喺自己單位入面罹難。我哋講到最後最多14 分鐘嘅意思就係 9 咁,其實好多人連走出屋門嘅機會其實都係冇。 10 同樣受火災嚴重重創嘅宏新閣,大家知道有一個強烈嘅對比,宏新閣嘅居民係 11 由一個--由第一個999 電話計起,其實有54 分鐘可以疏散,喺每一分鐘都係關乎 12 人命入面,呢段時間其實可以起到重要嘅作用。證據顯示呢段時間令宏新閣嘅居民 13 可以透過新聞報導、家人街坊嘅緊急電話通知有火,知道火警嚟緊。最重要嘅係宏 14 新閣其實全苑係--喺全個屋苑裏面,係其中兩個有警鐘響過嘅大廈。呢啲因素可以 15 解釋點解宏新閣有超過70 個單位嘅居民能夠及時離開,雖然全座每一個單位都有 16 唔同程度嘅損毀,但係罹難嘅只有兩位。 17 我哋睇樓宇嘅損毀裏面,其實最後嘅時間,大家會睇到呢一頁裏面深淺嘅顏色 18 已經話咗畀大家知,越深色內部損毀嚴重,宏昌、宏泰、宏新其實三座係首當其 19 衝,詳情嘅情況喺我哋嘅結案陳詞嘅402 段裏面已經詳盡咁去講咗。 20 主席、兩位委員,我哋喺第一部分嘅小結,我想借用我哋409 段嘅講法,工人 21 地盤食煙,防煙門--防煙樓梯被人擅自開咗生口,火警警報系統畀人熄咗,呢啲全 22 部避過監管耳目嘅事情,令一個細細局部嘅火變成一場史無前例嘅悲劇,各人嘅角 23 色就係今日如下我哋會探討嘅問題。 24 下一部分我哋會講到火災當日嘅緊急應變。委員會嘅專家亦都檢視過救火當日 25 嘅時序,大家知道消防員係五分鐘到場,佢(English Spoken)嘅講法就係反 26 映前線消防員應變工作效率,而且係高效。呢場火嘅規模同埋情況都係前所未見, 27 佢講到實際上其實消防處可以再額外做嘅工作其實好有限,係好難咁樣樣對於結果 28 有重大嘅改變。 29 我想喺呢度同大家重溫幾個關鍵嘅時間,等大家去再諗一諗當日嘅困難。14: 30 50,第一個999 電話,14:51 派車,14:56 第一批消防員到場,前後5 分05 31 秒,因為宏福苑有應變計劃,消防一早知道消防栓同埋喉轆系統停用,首批派出其 32 實已加強到16 架消防車,之後15:02 升三級,15:34 升四級,18:22 升五 33 級。當晚10 點半一共有174 架消防車,989 名消防人員同埋救護員行動,係五級 34 火嘅標準配置嘅9 倍。 35 前線嘅消防員面對個環境,大家都會記得,消防栓同喉轆系統冇水,有消防員 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第三十天

10 本謄本由 Epiq 編製,於聽證會中使用的部分英文詞句由獨立委員會秘書處補充。 要孭住80 公斤嘅手動泵一層一層咁行上去,有隊員一個定額29 分鐘嘅氣樽足足用 1 咗47 分鐘,即係冒險喺火場儘量唔用氣樽,好等火場留到消防員真係唔可以接受 2 嘅時間,希望留得最耐。喺呢個條件底下,消防一共救出咗62 名生還者,大家都 3 會記得有部分嘅生還者係畀過證供。值得提嘅係其實喺第二日淩晨2 點仲有兩位工 4 人係靠無人機定位,喺宏泰閣嘅天台獲救。 5 警方方面,喺16:00 之前已經有145 名警員到場,三日內動員3,694 人 6 次,並且喺宏仁閣同宏志閣協助疏散,直到下午16:50,因為安全嘅理由撤離。 7 消防員何偉豪,我哋喺書面嘅陳詞都用咗相當嘅篇幅去講佢當時嘅情況。大家 8 都會記得喺聽證會上高我哋都睇過有關嘅錄影,而琴日亦都提到,其實當時佢係停 9 低咗幫一名坐輪椅嘅長者,先至同隊友走散。詳情我哋唔再提,但係好籠統咁講, 10 我哋覺得有三個教訓。第一,消防員失散嘅問題,喺咁嘅火場,幾秒鐘嘅分頭行動 11 亦都會可以致命,認錯大廈,喺濃煙混亂八座外形差唔多嘅大廈入面,其實佢哋係 12 無法去辨認自己喺邊一座。第三,大家都會記得隨身嘅遇險發射器由頭到尾都冇啟 13 動過,所以隊員喺發出(English Spoken)信號之後,其實係搵佢唔到。呢啲 14 問題其實喺2016 年淘大工業大廈嗰個迷你倉大火之後其實已經提出過。 15 對於消防嘅當日嘅表現,整體嚟講消防處嘅證人喺聽證會上高,佢哋嘅答案大 16 致上係坦誠,冇迴避問題,時任大埔消防局局長張樂恒坦然,呢一場火嘅蔓延速度 17 去到一個地步,一啲既定嘅搜救策略其實已經超出咗佢哋嘅應付範圍。而消防處副 18 處長行動陳慶勇先生亦都承認,事後回望,當然早啲升四級火當然會有幫助,但係 19 佢亦都補充,同事當時嘅判斷係基於當時資訊下,佢哋認為最合適嘅。喺呢個基礎 20 上高,我哋指出咗一啲日後可以改善嘅地方,要講清楚我哋唔係話每一個嘅不足係 21 導致傷亡嘅理由,但係當然呢啲係要考慮嘅事情。我哋嘅提議就火警級別幾時升 22 級,疏散嘅安排,亦都係有詳盡嘅分析嘅。 23 就疏散方面,大家都會記得當日其實係冇一個有效嘅渠道去通知居民要走火, 24 因為火警鐘熄咗,到場嘅消防車亦都按慣例熄埋佢哋嘅警號。而大家都會記得,緊 25 急警示系統嗰個新冠疫情令全香港嘅手機都有響過嘅系統,按當時嘅指引根本用唔 26 著。 27 我哋亦都特別關注到喺大火當日疏散宏昌、宏泰以外幾座嘅可行性,我哋冇忘 28 記喺呢幾座嘅死者,當中包括其中一名涉事方鍾小碧女士嘅母親楊奐英(譯音)女 29 士,消防處處長陳慶勇作供時其實講到,火警初時人手有限,消防處集中資源控制 30 宏昌、宏泰嘅火勢,未能調派人手去疏散其他座,陳副處長當然亦都講咗,「當時 31 係咪如果早啲升級,有機會幫到手?」去確保呢類型嘅事情唔會再發生,日後當然 32 需要去做一啲嘅檢討。 33 999 求助當日超出負荷,同埋當時消防員溝通嘅方法,我哋亦都喺聆訊裏面探 34 討過,大家都會記得當時佢哋用嘅科技好似我哋用WhatsApp 咁,要影低一張一張 35 相發番去畀總部--發番去畀前線,我哋陳詞裏面形容呢啲嘅做法當然係效率唔高, 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第三十天

11 本謄本由 Epiq 編製,於聽證會中使用的部分英文詞句由獨立委員會秘書處補充。 亦都係有待改善。事後回撥1,581 個求助電話,有840 個係冇人接聽。喺今次嘅 1 聆訊裏面,我哋都提過無人機、直升機、內地增援嘅方案,結論係喺當日嘅條件 2 下,呢啲嘅方法係唔可行,明顯嘅答案其實係在於防犯。消防處處長楊恩健先生有 3 一段證供喺呢度值得特別記低,佢咁講嘅,「以當日嘅火勢並唔存在明顯更好嘅滅 4 火方法,所以策略嘅重心應該係放喺點樣樣由救熄一場已經全面發展嘅大火,轉移 5 到點樣防止佢嘅發生」,呢個講法我哋絕對同意。 6 但係如果講防止,我哋必須去面對一個事實,呢場火嘅每一道防線都因為嚴重 7 嘅失當失守,跟住落嚟我哋會探討有關嘅問題。喺離開當日嘅情況之前,我諗我哋 8 都--大家都會明白我哋想不厭其煩咁去講出當日消防面對嘅情況,當然係史無前 9 例,對於當時前線嘅消防員嘅英勇同埋犧牲咗嘅何偉豪,佢哋係非常之值得我哋嘅 10 敬佩。 11 主席、兩位委員,我跟住會去到第三部分,係承建商同埋工程顧問各方嘅問 12 題,呢個亦都係今次聽證會裏面其中一個最重要部分。造成呢個局面責任喺邊個 13 度?書面陳詞第2 章記錄咗維修工程事實經過;第6 章分析咗各方嘅責任。我而家 14 合併嚟講,喺呢個工程裏面其實牽涉到好多唔同嘅人物,大家會喺我哋書面陳詞裏 15 面,第21 至24 裏面我哋有一個撮要,每一個持份者佢哋嘅角色,我哋都一一列 16 出,裏面嘅名稱相信大家都熟悉,我唔喺呢度再讀一次出嚟。 17 我想強調嘅係宏福苑嘅居民真金白銀咁攞咗$3 億3 千6 百萬出嚟,佢哋完全 18 有合理期望,希望宏業信守合約嘅承諾。合約寫得好清楚,宏業要負責統籌同埋加 19 強防火措施;棚架連棚網打風爛咗要自費修復;工地要日日清走廢料,文明禁止積 20 聚;所有物料需經鴻毅批准先可以用;合約仲要要求喺出入口嘅上蓋起一啲鋼製行 21 人通道,保護居民出入。大家都會記得呢樣嘢冇做過。 22 第一部分講過宏昌閣、宏泰閣嘅地下出口正正係畀呢啲大火跌落嚟嘅雜物封 23 死,呢一部分嘅結論讓我開宗明義咁講,今次嘅事件唔係普通嘅疏忽大意,證據顯 24 示係偷工減料,加上一場對監管機構、對業主嘅持續欺騙,懷疑造假證書,巡查嘅 25 時候更換棚網魚目混珠,直接講大話;仲有一批收錢掛名嘅人士做橡皮圖章,佢哋 26 為咗節省成本,落足工夫逃避監管,罔顧宏福苑居民嘅安危。我哋書面陳詞裏面有 27 講承建商、顧問呢一種行為值得委員會最嚴厲嘅斥責。 28 我哋探討宏業點樣去組織去欺騙各個政府部門,我哋想首先提三個整體嘅失 29 當。第一,拒絕分期施工,八座大廈同時搭棚,同時包上可燃物料,呢一個係令呢 30 場大火可以火燒連環船嘅前提。大家會記得徐滿柑先生喺2024 年9 月出任法團主 31 席之後,其實隨即要求咗佢哋分期做,做完一期先做下一期,而且明明白白向宏業 32 轉達咗居民對火警嘅憂慮,宏業拒絶,理由係供其成本同埋人手,我哋認為呢個藉 33 口完全站唔住腳,提供足夠人手係宏業自己嘅合約責任。合約價已經封咗頂,消防 34 安全嘅重要性唔需要再重複。宏業又話舊法團一早批咗每座流水式重疊維修嘅做 35 法,但係我哋睇番有關嘅紀錄,其實舊法團批過嘅只係棚架分三期搭,宏業、鴻毅 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第三十天

12 本謄本由 Epiq 編製,於聽證會中使用的部分英文詞句由獨立委員會秘書處補充。 從來冇攞出嚟講過,亦都冇提過話八座同時包住可燃物會有任何嘅後果。消防風險 1 呢一點,專業人士從來冇擺過上檯畀法團考慮,亦都冇顯示鴻毅曾經行使合約嘅權 2 力要求宏業分期咁去做。 3 第二,禁煙,喺第一部分講過,亦都喺聽證會上高講過好多次,呢個宏業有責 4 任,而佢哋嘅缺失我唔再重複。 5 第三,冇消防培訓,呢一點直接關乎人命,宏昌閣低層工人大家都知道喺14: 6 42 已經發現火警,佢哋用咗九分鐘喺度嘈邊個食煙,自己試下撲滅,最終去到 7 14:51 先有一位途人打999,專組講過早幾分鐘報警可能足以令消防嘅火勢初期 8 受到控制。要對工人公道咁講,呢個唔係淨係工人嘅問題,我哋冇睇到有安全講座 9 教過工人點樣應變火警,成個地盤八座擠滿咗可燃物,亦都冇人監察火警危險。仲 10 有棚架、光井平台積聚嘅垃圾,大家會記得起火嘅平台305 室樓上,其實日日都聽 11 到有雜物跌落嚟,李詠文博士喺事後就搵到一啲紙皮箱、發泡膠、膠樽同埋一啲即 12 棄嘅餐具,可燃物、火種其實樣樣齊。大家會記得有一位居民謝玉華女士嘅作供, 13 佢提到佢好少開窗,因為棚架上面嘅垃圾積聚,出面嘅環境基本上唔可以令到佢開 14 窗,出面太惡劣,垃圾,宏業係有合約責任去清,佢哋明顯冇做到。 15 我哋而家講最核心嘅棚網,邊個負責選購非阻燃棚網同埋佢哋點樣去隱瞞呢個 16 題目。證據顯示佢哋明顯知道法例嘅要求,大家會記得喺2024 年5 月30 日工程 17 會議,宏業自己承諾外牆棚網具有阻燃性。6 月17 日鴻毅提醒宏業必須嚴格按照 18 屋宇署《作業守則APP-70》方面嘅規定,並提交帆布、棚網嘅耐燃證書。盈利豐 19 張報價單大家都會記得係話要用阻燃網,冇人可以話唔知道阻燃嘅要求。2024 年 20 10 月28 日ICU 喺宏福苑做快速測試,幅網用火燃燒咗十五秒,之自己後繼續燃 21 燒咗十秒先畀人吹熄。證書點寫呢?續燃時間零秒,測試唔合格,宏業都係零跟 22 進。更離譜嘅係下一步,宏業法團同埋置邦流傳嘅測試影片全部都刷走咗,大家會 23 記得最後嗰十秒,只有ICU 自己影嗰條片影到,開案陳詞播過,我唔再播,推論只 24 有一個,有人剪咗最後嗰十秒。 25 大家亦會記得打風之後嘅情況,2025 年韋帕、樺加沙兩個十號風球令到棚網 26 嚴重損毀,換網係宏業合約責任,費用一早包咗喺合約入面,但係盈利豐嘅負責人 27 陳耀輝先生嘅證供提到,宏業經理何建業,大家會記得人稱Gordon 哥,指示佢用 28 非阻燃網,大家會記得佢嘅講法「叫你訂就訂,唔使講咁多,你訂阻燃網都唔會找 29 數畀你。」陳先生打番電話畀侯華健得到嘅指示係「照Gordon 哥講咁去做。」動 30 機好簡單,慳錢。陳耀輝先生同何建業先生嘅呢段嘅對話當然係冇當場錄音,但係 31 我哋會請委員會留意一點,何建業先生喺2026 年7 月2 號交咗佢嘅第二份證人陳 32 述書,對於呢一個我哋向佢提出嚴重嘅指控,佢係冇否認嘅。 33 非阻燃網嘅規模到底有幾大呢?呢一點我哋之前可能係冇全面咁樣喺聽證會度 34 分析過,陳詞裏面大家會見到一啲嘅相片,見到起火個位置,宏昌閣光井用咗唔少 35 明顯較淺色、較疏嘅棚網,證據顯示呢一啲較淺色、較疏嘅應該係非阻燃棚網。另 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第三十天

13 本謄本由 Epiq 編製,於聽證會中使用的部分英文詞句由獨立委員會秘書處補充。 外,我哋睇到書面陳詞嘅另外一張圖,見到喺2025 年10 月8 日有好大面積棚網 1 損毀需要更換,相片嘅左手面見到大量較淺色棚網,我哋亦都相信係非阻燃棚網。 2 我哋喺書面陳詞嘅第2 段,其實係有逐張單咁去跟,打完風,其實2025 年7 月到 3 10 月盈利豐先後向供應商林記訂咗900 件,再訂咗1,400 件換網,每件54 鈫; 4 另外佢哋向內地嘅供應商濱州市源進訂咗2,500 件。報嘅時候寫明「非阻燃」, 5 前後合共4,800 件,覆蓋嘅面積以數十萬平方米計。阻燃之後訂咗幾多?喺10 月 6 27 號為咗應付ICU 嘅巡查,買咗一批115 件,每件100 鈫,非阻燃棚網平一 7 半,大家會明白點解佢哋訂咁少。所以我哋會建議委員會明確咁樣去裁定火災嗰日 8 包住宏福苑嘅棚網相當大比例係非阻燃,呢個情況唔可以接受,亦都係令火勢蔓延 9 嘅主因。 10 頭先講到宏業點樣應付ICU 巡查,叫盈利豐買咗一批115 件嘅阻燃棚網去魚目 11 混珠,原因係ICU 喺10 月27 日通知咗鴻毅話之後嗰日要試棚網,大家都會記得 12 即日傳到去宏業嘅(English Spoken)嗰度,佢喺同同事發出嚟呢個訊息寫明 13 「不公開,明日下午預ICU 到地盤,預要check 棚網,check 定邊啲okay。」 14 同日,宏業叫咗盈利豐訂115 件,換上架係乜嘢呢?最低嗰幾層佢哋預咗ICU 會 15 喺嗰度測試。主席、兩位委員,其實個訊息本身都睇到,其實佢哋係明知故犯同埋 16 魚目混珠。大家會記得我問過ICU 嘅古小平先生同意,如果唔係將下面嗰啲換咗, 17 呢個騙局係咪有機會發現到,佢同意有機會。仲有一個受害者大家要記住,喺11 18 月8 號鴻毅向法團報告ICU 上星期巡查期間測試棚網阻燃合乎標準,換句話講,呢 19 一個陳述證明佢哋係有心呃宏福苑居民。 20 講到證書嘅問題,最初棚網嘅阻燃證書登記嗰個名,我哋知道喺2019 年已經 21 改咗,證書裏面嘅係舊名。我亦都問過古小平先生,佢亦都同意,其實ICU 收證書 22 嘅時候係冇考慮邊個出嘅,大火之後,其實佢哋有查證書上高嘅編號,發現同機構 23 差咗兩個字,當然及後ICU 都同意嗰張證書係假。當然故事未完,大家都會記得 24 11 月20 日勞工處巡查,指明要嚟用替換新棚網嘅證書,宏業點做?同一張證書喺 25 相關2024 年1 月8 日嘅舊證書原封不動咁畀咗勞工處,勞工處嘅林秀青女士喺聽 26 證會亦都承認檔案入面明明有之前嗰張,但係佢哋冇對比過。所以個結果係咩嘢 27 呢?一張懷疑造假嘅證書用嚟呃完ICU,過咗一段時間再呃勞工處,佢哋用一張證 28 書呃咗兩個部門。 29 最令人唏噓嘅亦都有,大家會記得舊年10 月18 號,其實中環華懋大廈嘅棚架 30 大火,全香港都睇到。10 月21 日其實屋宇署係發出咗通函,提醒咗業界阻燃棚網 31 嘅要求。宏福苑嘅居民大家記得有其實係有喺Facebook 討論過呢件事,佢哋咁講 32 嘅,居民嘅帖文裏面講到「如果大維修大廈同大火可以造成幾百人一同葬生火海, 33 一位街坊睇到一單新聞,其實佢都了解到相關嘅風險。 34 火災之後大家會記得,我哋喺開案陳詞播過盈利豐嘅陳先生收到太太鍾鳳平發 35 畀佢嘅訊息,大家都會記得佢哋咁講「我哋後期送過去嘅棚網,阿添(譯音)叫你 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第三十天

14 本謄本由 Epiq 編製,於聽證會中使用的部分英文詞句由獨立委員會秘書處補充。 解畫,夾好口供解話,打畀佢,因為我哋嗰啲唔係阻燃嘅棚網。」呢段嘅訊息畀我 1 哋知道兩樣嘢,第一,明顯知道棚網唔阻燃;第二,到當時仲想夾口供欺騙有關嘅 2 部門。 3 基於上述嘅理由,我哋懇請委員會裁定非阻燃棚網嘅替換,宏業同盈利豐要負 4 主要責任,非阻燃棚網宏業要有最終嘅責任,鴻毅--sorry,帆布要有最終責任, 5 宏業、鴻毅監督失職。要補充一句公道嘅說話,雖然喺最初嘅證據裏面唔清楚新舊 6 法團佢哋知道幾多,但係我哋可以--而家可以睇到,其實法團同居民應該係由頭到 7 尾都畀有關嘅承判商係瞞騙。 8 跟住落嚟我哋想講發泡膠,發泡膠嘅問題開案陳詞講過,我想集中講責任。我 9 哋亦都睇番2024 年6 月17 日嘅會議紀錄,白紙黑字,鴻毅表明「發泡膠為易燃 10 物品,並於火災時產生大量濃煙。」鴻毅--宏業就話用夾板保護唔夠好,堅持用發 11 泡膠,鴻毅最後一句「如果承建商堅持用,必須自行考慮風險,並制訂應變方 12 案。」一個月後,鴻毅就180 度轉身,宏業喺7 月17 日去信鴻毅申請用發泡膠板 13 封窗,鴻毅喺合上簽咗“(English Spoken)”,隻字冇提風險。幾個禮拜之 14 內點解佢哋改變咗立場呢?冇人講得出原因。 15 到9 月居民見到發泡膠著火嗰段片段,投訴四起,鴻毅就索性點做呀?出咗一 16 份意見書,應對管委會嘅質疑。大家螢光幕上高睇到,鴻毅話法例冇要求棚網以外 17 嘅保護物料阻燃,話現樓外牆一般唔構成嚴重火警風險或發泡膠比棚網更加難傳 18 火,鴻毅呢個講法唔只唔能夠接受,大家都會知道亦都唔合常理。第一,佢嘅講法 19 同屋宇署嘅立場我哋而家當然完全唔同;第二,大家知道格蘭菲爾之後,用易燃物 20 料包住大廈外牆係有危險,唔使法例寫明,承建商、行內人冇理由完全唔知。其間 21 居民同法團亦都唔係冇問過發泡膠阻燃嘅問題,大家會知道喺2024 年9 月12 號 22 嘅會議,管委會攞住居民影發泡膠燒嗰條片問宏業呢啲物料係咪易燃,宏業嘅解釋 23 係咩嘢?佢哋咁講「現時使用封窗嘅物料是不會因煙頭接觸而燃燒起,但如果用明 24 火持續就另作別論。」呢個解釋我哋覺得係完全唔成立。大家知道一個煙頭其實可 25 以引起棚架上高其他嘅物料燃燒,正正係因為咁,喺工地裏面係有機會有持續嘅明 26 火。今次場火亦都係咁樣開始,而當居民問可唔可以轉用較阻燃物料嘅時候,何建 27 業喺工程組嘅WhatsApp 咁講「如果要更換物料,要待第二期才可用,因為第一期 28 嘅保護工程已進行中,物料已到地盤。」佢等於間接承認市面上其實係有一啲更加 29 阻燃嘅物料,不過裝咗唔用。 30 至於發泡膠鋪天蓋地、常年累月呢係封咗宏福苑單位嘅窗,大家都知道。工人 31 嘅證供打鑿完樓層,上頭吩咐係唔准拆嘅,結果全座封晒,封足成年,居民就喺封 32 咗嘅窗後面生活。大家亦都會記得佢哋同監管機構講嘅大話,2024 年10 月28 日 33 ICU 落嚟巡查,古小平其實係對住宏業表示,發泡膠板可能對居民構成火警風險, 34 宏業點答佢呀?「啲板只係鑿磚嘅期間用,一次三層,鑿完就拆。」我哋而家知道 35 呢一個保證--呢一個講法係咩?係一個徹頭徹尾嘅大話,事實係整座封住,封足一 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第三十天

15 本謄本由 Epiq 編製,於聽證會中使用的部分英文詞句由獨立委員會秘書處補充。 年,直到火警當日。 1 而呢個大廈亦都講咗一樣嘢,正如--呢個大廈亦都講明咗一樣嘢,正如我哋喺 2 書面陳詞第767.2 段提到,一個冇嘢隱瞞嘅承建商,其實佢唔會淡化佢哋自己嘅 3 工程安排,去安撫一個監管機構。宏業向ICU 描述局部封窗、即封即拆其實正正咪 4 係一個比較安全嘅做法,即係話佢哋完全知道應該點做,但係唔去做。對於呢個大 5 話有幾容易拆穿,我諗問一問宏福苑每位嘅居民,佢哋都可以講到畀你聽。我哋懇 6 請委員會裁定發泡膠板係不當使用,宏業同鴻毅要負主要責任。 7 跟住我講埋樓梯生口,生口嘅致命後果,我哋大家都知道,火災當日其實全苑 8 嘅樓梯裏面嘅窗其實已經全部都改咗做防火窗,所以換窗工程其實做晒,換句話嚟 9 講,其實除咗嗰啲生口,嗰條走火樓梯係唔會廢咗武功。呢啲生口當然我哋知道係 10 宏業開,負責宏建閣、宏泰、宏昌嘅分判商吳培坤先生對委員會講,宏業係叫佢每 11 五層後樓梯開一個生口,佢問過「得唔得?」個答案係「叫你就做。」佢承認生口 12 純粹係為咗方便工人,技術上唔需要。我哋問到佢有冇諗過會影響逃生,佢話「呢 13 啲我唔識。」鴻毅又點?一如既往零監管。宏業8 月1 號申請15 樓開生口,鴻毅 14 點呢?即日批。8 月22 日再申請,5、10、20、25 樓亦都即日批准。批得咁快顯 15 示咗啲咩嘢?其實根本完全冇諗過呢個問題。開生口其實只不過係為咗方便出入。 16 最諷刺嘅係2024 年8 月7 號,其實當時時任嘅管委會主席鄧國權先生,佢當 17 時係話咩?佢係一個外行人,但係佢喺WhatsApp 群組裏面佢都咁講「該窗位應否 18 選用防火或耐火物料?」一個外行人諗到嘅風險,點解啲專業人士冇諗過? 19 換窗嘅工程,大家可能喺聽證會裏面聽過呢啲名,但係我哋冇詳細咁樣去談 20 及。負責入則嘅係志富建築同埋動感室內訊計,佢哋認只係受聘做乜嘢?簽表,工 21 程一啲都冇份做過,監工計劃書寫嘅兩位隸屬承建商工作班子嘅監督人員,其實係 22 邊個?鴻毅嘅(English Spoken )--sorry ,宏業嘅(English 23 Spoken)。佢哋嘅認可人士黎家榮同結構工程師戚務堅,佢哋話乜嘢呢?佢哋話 24 佢哋有定期巡查。委員會其實唔需要去作出一啲事實嘅裁定去決定佢哋係咪真係有 25 查過,因為佢哋嘅證據裏面提到一點好清楚,佢哋兩個都承認見到有生口,但係覺 26 得冇問題,理由係咩嘢?佢哋話因為原本嗰啲窗都唔防火,所以個生口冇令到個情 27 況更差,呢個解釋我相信大家今日聽到都會嬲,點解換防火窗呢個項目有需要,其 28 實咪去保護條後樓梯,點解專業人士可以咁講?基於呢個原因,我哋覺得冇需要再 29 花時間傳召佢哋出嚟作供都可以下以下定論。持牌專業人士見到防煙樓梯開咗個 30 窿,佢哋唔覺得係一個問題,淨係呢一點已經完全唔可以接受。 31 基於以上嘅基礎,我哋會懇請委員會去裁定宏業下令開生口,鴻毅秘速嘅批 32 核,兩者負主要責任。志富、動感、黎家榮先生同戚務堅先生淨係需要跟番佢哋書 33 面陳詞,其實已經完全知悉相關嘅問題,因為佢哋明知道有生口,其實佢哋一粒聲 34 都冇出過,佢哋亦都應該負上責任,佢哋唔係旁觀者,佢哋係簽名向ICU 表示樓梯 35 工程安全嘅合規持牌人。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第三十天

16 本謄本由 Epiq 編製,於聽證會中使用的部分英文詞句由獨立委員會秘書處補充。 主席,我跟住會去講消防系統,呢個可能係一個好嘅時間做一個簡短早上嘅小 1 息。 2 陸啟康法官:我諗呢個陳詞都即係非常之沉重,我諗我哋都真係需要時間休息一下,咁我哋 3 而家就休息十五分鐘。 4 喺休息之前,我亦都提醒其實杜資深大律師嗰個最後陳詞入面嘅,首先我再講 5 第2 同埋第3 章其實已經將好多事實佢已寫吴出嚟,咁亦都佢頭先嗰啲其實都會喺 6 嗰度,咁嗰啲其實好多係冇爭議嘅,如果真係覺得有咩嘢爭議,你哋覺得係有爭議 7 就早啲通知,一星期之內通知我哋嗰個,如果唔係嘅話,其實我哋發覺第2、第3 8 章入面所有事實係冇咩嘢爭議嘅,咁所以亦都因為基於冇爭議,咁所以我哋都會將 9 嗰部分係節錄番喺嗰個嘅最後個報告嗰度。所以如果各位覺得嗰兩部分嘅事實,當 10 然喺所有嘅責任研判嗰啲我哋一定要獨立作出研判,但係嗰個事實嗰個基礎方面, 11 如果係冇爭議,我哋就會寫番喺個報告度,請大家留意第2、第3 同埋第4 章。 12 咁而家休息十五分鐘。 13

14 11 時20 分聽證會押後 15 11 時35 分聽證會恢復 16

17 杜淦堃資深大律師:主席。 18 陸啟康法官:係,請繼續。 19 杜淦堃資深大律師:各位委員,我哋仲喺第三部分,而家都係分析緊承建商同埋顧問同工程 20 嘅各方責任問題。跟住我哋會去睇消防系統,消防裝置點解會熄,證據好清楚,我 21 哋可以用幾分鐘去總結。宏福苑每年一驗嘅消防承辦商係宏泰消防,年檢之後有維 22 修未完成,同一時間宏業話要幫消防水缸鋪磚,要清空啲缸,宏業就搵咗中華發展 23 做承辦商,功能係咩嘢呢?向消防處掛牌,實際落手放水嘅大家都會記得係置邦電 24 工羅國瑞先生,因為要放水佢閂咗八座嘅總掣,一併熄埋火警警報,佢自己係唔知 25 道呢個情況。由嗰陣時警鐘一直關閉,10 月中,宏泰消防嘅唐慶麟先生見到宏仁、 26 宏道、宏新嘅水缸乾晒,11 月19 號佢哋發現總掣熄咗,問置邦點解,答案係另一 27 間承辦商做緊嘢。再問攞張掛牌文件,當日攞唔到出嚟。到兩日之後,11 月21 號 28 佢哋嘅技工李俊賢先生喺宏志閣見到個總掣仲係熄咗嘅,做完自己份維修,佢走 29 咗。同一日,置邦將一批由8 月到11 月中不等嘅舊相發畀宏泰消防,話水缸滿番 30 水,可唔可以簽完工證明。 31 大家都會記得喺聆訊嘅過程裏面我哋都用咗啲時間其實嘗試去調查下呢件事嘅 32 來龍去脈,但係而家我哋知道嘅係喺五日之後,11 月26 號個掣都冇開番。我啱啱 33 講嘅呢一系列嘅事件可以引申出四個重點,第一,中華發展係一間掛名嘅承辦商, 34 佢哋請番嚟基本上係做一樣嘢,就係向消防處遞交表格,前前後後九十三張停用通 35 知書。而梁秉基先生亦都喺書面承認冇一個職員落過場。就呢一方面我哋前日聽到 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第三十天

17 本謄本由 Epiq 編製,於聽證會中使用的部分英文詞句由獨立委員會秘書處補充。 佢法律代表嘅陳詞,佢哋咁講嘅,佢哋話「雖然係嗰個描述佢哋嘅做法真係好似一 1 個橡皮圖章咁,但係佢哋係有解釋嘅」。主席應該記得佢個解釋基本上就係話中華 2 發展其實以為宏業已經係註冊嘅消防承辦商,所以佢覺得中華發展淨係做呢個橡皮 3 圖章嘅工作係冇問題嘅。 4 我哋嘅睇法係,呢個講法本身係無稽,何況我哋有理由相信呢個講法亦都唔係 5 事實。佢哋嘅法律代表講「梁先生喺第一份證人供詞其實都係淨係回應我哋嘅指示- 6 -委員會嘅代表律師羅文錦律師樓嘅問題,所以就冇將後來嘅解釋講出嚟。」作為一 7 個出發點,呢個藉口冇可能成立。第一份證人陳述書,其實佢都係認晒佢哋係齋簽 8 表格,冇做過檢查,寫得出咁樣樣你都會知道之後有人會批評你。如果你當時你係 9 有一個站得住腳嘅解釋,你冇理由第一時間唔講出嚟。佢哋而家依賴嘅解釋,其實 10 大家會記得係喺第二份陳述書,即係佢哋畀口供之前嘅幾日先至提交畀委員會。唔 11 單止係咁,佢哋嘅法律代表亦都提到一樣嘢,大家會記得佢前日話,我哋盤問嘅時 12 候就冇向當事人指出佢呢個解釋係捏造出嚟嘅。我哋行內嗰個講法就話「我哋冇 13 (English Spoken)」。 14 我哋呢個委員會當然唔係法庭,冇當面質疑呢個規範,何況其實呢個有關嘅要 15 求背後嘅理念係咩嘢呢?要等個證人真係有機會去解釋佢嘅案情,對有關指控作出 16 回應。我哋睇番當時嘅謄本,當日我係咁問佢嘅,我同佢指出「你兩份口供有前後 17 矛盾」,我原話係咁講「你見唔見到個矛盾呀?我而家畀個機會你解,點解有個咁 18 嘅矛盾?你解唔解到?」我亦都質疑梁先生話宏業係第二間嘅註冊承辦商,所以佢 19 覺得okay 呢個講法係一個禮拜之前先講㗎咋,唔係當時佢做呢件事上高嘅諗法。 20 我哋畀足機會佢去解,佢冇一個好嘅合理解釋。 21 有牌嘅冇落場,邊個落咗去做嘢?當然,我哋明白當時嘅情況,真係閂咗嗰個 22 刀掣嘅羅師傅其實佢都係唔想嘅,佢係唔明白當時嗰個後果。但係一個完全冇資格 23 處理嘅電工,入咗泵房閂咗八座嘅總掣,呢一個做法大家都會了解係完全唔可以接 24 受。佢喺聽證會上高亦都好坦白,結果大家都知道有資格嘅冇落場,冇資格嘅就入 25 咗場去閂掣。第三,我哋有理由相信個工程本身都係多餘嘅,宏泰消防年檢前後並 26 冇發現個水缸明顯有滲漏,鋪瓷磚呢個項目由頭到尾個需要性亦都係存疑。而為咗 27 呢單多餘嘅工程,宏泰閣嘅消防喉轆由2025 年4 月7 號一直到火災,即係234 28 日一路都係閂咗,17 張續期嘅掛牌。 29 第四,最後一個情況亦都係一個唔可以接受嘅情況,點解有人見到冇出聲?宏 30 泰消防喺2025 年10 月已經發現咗水缸乾咗塘。11 月19 號發現個總掣熄咗,佢 31 哋唔係外行嚟,行內人見到呢個情況,知道水缸工程根本係唔需要熄個總掣,佢哋 32 亦應該知道個事態嚴重,佢哋同置邦之間,鍾傑文先生同置邦嘅鄭芷盈女士,邊個 33 講過啲乜,有冇攞過個牌出嚟係有一個事實上高嘅爭議,大家會記得佢哋個講法係 34 有啲唔同嘅。當然,兩個證人講法唔同未必有一個係講緊大話,有好多理由,之後 35 我哋法庭經驗話畀我哋知,好多個月出嚟講番件事有唔同,可能係正常嘅,但係無 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第三十天

18 本謄本由 Epiq 編製,於聽證會中使用的部分英文詞句由獨立委員會秘書處補充。 論如何書面陳詞我哋亦都講得好清楚,宏泰消防同置邦各執一詞,其實係改變唔到 1 任何人嘅責任,委員會嘅結論亦都係唔需要建基於呢個爭拗之上,無論邊個版本, 2 宏泰消防點都應該做嘢,佢攞唔到張掛牌紙,即係嗰張SDN,唔等於你可以企喺度 3 乜都唔做㗎嘛,相反見到警鐘閂咗,管理處又畀唔到嗰張SDN 你睇,唔係應該盡快 4 報畀消防話畀佢哋知有問題咩?或者另外一樣嘢佢哋可以做嘅,你識去開番個掣㗎 5 嘛,但係一樣都冇做過囉。消防處畀我哋嘅文件睇到,其實喺消防處個通函2021 6 年嘅1 號裏面,喺相關嘅段落,即係喺B2/1303,其實講咗如果發現可能令全棟 7 大廈嘅火警時陷入危險嘅情況,你係必須通知消防處。而大家記得鍾傑文先生喺聽 8 證會上高講咗當時嘅心態,佢已經搵咗另外一間做,「唔好教人做嘢,唔係自己嘅 9 嘢,我自己覺得係唔妥都好」,相信各位都唔覺得呢一個解釋係可以接受。 10 呢一次嘅結論喺陳詞入面亦都係一個相當沉重嘅結論,如果宏泰消防同置邦當 11 日係盡咗責,火警警報系統係有機會回復正常運作,我哋今日第一部分睇過宏新閣 12 嘅數字,警鐘一響,其實個傷亡可能會好唔同。至於置邦嘅整體責任,佢係物管, 13 投訴簿一早記錄咗有人食煙,生口亦都一直望住開咗,我哋覺得佢嘅態度始終係被 14 動,雖然公道啲咁講,佢哋唔係消防專家,唔係工程嘅主責方,但係業主同埋承建 15 商、顧問同埋政府部門之間,佢哋其實都係扮演咗一個橋樑。工人食煙、樓梯開生 16 口、警鐘熄咗,作為業主嘅管理人,佢本應主動去跟進。就呢一方面,置邦嘅大律 17 師喺陳詞嗰度佢咁講嘅「置邦員工派工單要求協助宏業放咗防火水缸嘅水係冇問題 18 㗎,因為佢哋預咗宏業會搵註冊嘅消防承辦商在場吖嘛」,呢一個答案恐怕我哋都 19 係唔能夠接受,置邦係清楚知道羅師傅閂咗嗰個刀掣嗰一日,中華發展嗰日唔喺度 20 㗎嘛,如果真係有消防承辦商在場,羅師傅唔使自己去掂嗰個掣喇。退一步講,置 21 邦最少有一個失責,就係冇好好培訓或者指示過佢嘅員工,無論我哋講嘅係羅師傅 22 或者駱小姐都好,其實喺任何情況之下都唔可以操作消防泵房裏面嘅任何設施。更 23 重要嘅係羅師傅自己嘅證供,佢喺佢嘅證供第19 段咁講,「我也向管理處嘅同事 24 駱倩盈小姐提出,處理消防水缸係需要有消防牌照才能操作,駱倩盈小姐向我指出 25 由於我是電工,而且是宏業的要求,因此我需要陪同宏業的工作人員,以協作宏業 26 將消防水缸放水」。所以佢明知要牌,亦都講咗出口,公司照樣叫佢做。置邦嘅大 27 律師亦都有另外一個講法,佢哋話「基本上話因為消防處事後發現咗嗰個保險絲燒 28 咗,所以警鐘咪唔響囉」。當然,佢哋亦都明白呢個係一個可能性嘅問題,但係呢 29 一個講法我哋亦都覺得唔可以接受。 30 第一,火災之後發現保險絲燒咗,呢個唔等於大火之前已經燒咗㗎嘛,消防處 31 姜世明先生其實同鍾傑文博士佢哋都解釋過,呢套消防系統其實係串聯嘅電流路徑 32 嘅,電路任何一點受損可能會造成短路,受火嘅幾座保險絲可能係因為大火嘅高溫 33 燒斷,呢個亦都係合乎常理嘅講法,就算冇技術背景,我哋都會明。 34 第二,宏泰消防唔夠六個月之前其實先檢驗咗完成套系統㗎咋喎,當時運作係 35 正常喎。姜先生亦都應置邦嘅提問講過,燒保險絲嘅情況其實甚少遇到,如果唔係 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第三十天

19 本謄本由 Epiq 編製,於聽證會中使用的部分英文詞句由獨立委員會秘書處補充。 有個火,其實燒呢個(English Spoken)或者叫做,唔係經常發生,話八座嘅 1 保險絲喺火災之前已經全部燒咗呢個係極不可能。 2 第三,主席前日亦都提到喺火災當日,其實最重要嘅證據就係林文欣先生自己 3 去開番兩座嗰個警鐘㗎嘛,置邦自己證人證供係咁講嘅,亦都有人聽到嗰啲警鐘 4 嘅,所以其實嗰兩座本身係冇事嘅,即係話如果唔係畀人閂咗個掣,當日個警鐘有 5 可能,就算唔係全部,大部分都會響到。個保險絲亦都唔會係第一時間就燒咗,個 6 警鐘最少可以響一段時間,我哋而家講唔到幾耐,但係響過一定好過冇響。 7 跟住我會去探討其他專業人士去咗邊,呢個掛名文化嘅問題,呢個部分可能係 8 最令人咋舌嘅發現。就係喺呢個監管嘅過程裏面,一個一個持牌嘅把關人,其實佢 9 哋只係簽名機器,當然代表人物係註冊檢驗人員吳躍先生。大家會記得個時序係咁 10 嘅,鴻毅原本嘅RI,大家記得叫沈鉅忠,佢喺2022 年7 月已經離世,法例要求 11 幾耐通報?七日,鴻毅做咗啲乜嘢呀?冇報喇。ICU 兩年之後靠一宗投訴知道咗, 12 喺2024 年7 月工程開始時候,其實根本上係冇RI。拖到10 月10 號ICU 一再 13 追問,鴻毅先至交份表格攞咗吳躍呢個名出嚟。再令人覺得離譜啲嘅就係呢位吳先 14 生佢做過啲咩嘢呀?警方喺佢手機裏面檢獲到有關嘅WhatsApp,佢自己寫低咗嘅 15 交代就係咁嘅,佢有全職工作,同時掛名做緊幾多個項目呀?大家記得,50 個項 16 目,鴻毅每個月畀15,000 鈫加花紅,借出簽名同承責,合同收咗$19 萬,佢自認 17 參與係主要限於簽署法定表格同埋檢驗報告,佢甚至話表格上高嘅簽名嘅真確性佢 18 都有懷疑。地盤冇人見過佢,ICU 冇同佢見過面,收過佢一封電郵,ICU--嗰封電 19 郵唔係佢自己發出嚟嘅,係公司發出嚟㗎咋。ICU 約佢巡樓,鴻毅點答呀? 20 “(English Spoken)”,連法團主席徐滿柑先生都話從來都唔識呢個人。有 21 兩點可能我哋要對吳先生公道一啲,佢懷疑法定表格上高個簽名未必係佢親筆簽 22 名,但係委員會唔需要去考慮呢個係咪一個偽造-- 即係偽簽嘅簽名,因為佢 23 WhatsApp 裏面佢自己都講得好清楚,就算張表格唔係佢簽,都係佢授權人代佢 24 簽,收錢承責。 25 仲有一段對話其實係亦都可以識破嘅,鴻毅嘅黃俠然先生喺成個工程裏面搵咗 26 佢幾多次呢?紀錄裏面睇到,有次係為咗個冷氣機罩附加工程,喺WhatsApp 問過 27 佢一次問題,跟住WhatsApp 我哋睇到啲咩嘢紀錄呀?淨係得收錢紀錄。仲有下文 28 嘅,就係2025 年11 月,吳躍同中間人有傾另外一單佢哋叫做「齋簽」嘅交易, 29 $15 萬簽晒所有文件,屋宇署嚟巡就扮嘢。佢開價$18 萬,對話問「肯唔肯簽倒簽 30 日期嘅文件?」即係我哋叫(English Spoken),咁呀可以考慮個價。佢點做 31 呀?佢應承,為咗十幾萬倒簽日期,矇騙屋宇署嘅文件,佢都應承,佢嘅底線喺邊 32 度,我相信委員會心中有數。 33 所以其實真相係宏福苑呢項三億幾嘅工程,由頭到尾冇一日有過一個真正嘅RI 34 履行職務。而呢個唔係唯一嘅例子,中華發展齋交表,置富同動感齋簽則,成個制 35 度依賴專業把關,喺宏福苑其實只係一個集體嘅借名遊戲。喺呢一個部分,我哋想 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第三十天

20 本謄本由 Epiq 編製,於聽證會中使用的部分英文詞句由獨立委員會秘書處補充。 用我哋書面陳詞嘅原話嚟做一個小結,呢種由宏業、鴻毅同一眾註冊人士持續進行 1 嘅欺騙,令到佢哋嘅違規避過咗每一個監管機構嘅耳目,呢一種行為亦都係值得委 2 員會最嚴厲嘅譴責。 3 跟住我哋會嚟到第四部分,政府部門嘅角色。我哋剛剛講咗承建商同顧問點蓄 4 意欺騙監管機構,我哋形容佢哋嘅責任係主要責任,政府代表大律師所講嘅直接責 5 任其實我哋喺書面陳詞亦都係講得好清楚,我哋嘅講法就係監管嘅做法亦都可以令 6 到騙徒有機可乘,點解我哋咁講?其實係基於喺委員會席前見到嘅證據。其實喺聽 7 證會嘅第十七日,委員會各成員亦都有就呢一個題目問咗一啲問題,主席指出居民 8 消防設施投訴個案入面,似乎跌咗入一個灰色地帶。歐陽伯權博士指出一般嘅市民 9 其實自然搵消防處,佢哋唔會識分搵邊個部門負責辦。陳健波議員就問「可唔可以 10 有一個人兜底嘅制度?因為冇嘅話,一宗投訴喺部門之間推嚟推去,冇人去處理, 11 結果就不了了之」。 12 主席、兩位委員,我哋明白世界上好少滴水不漏嘅制度,我哋亦都明白我哋今 13 時今日見到嘅問題唔係一朝一夕,現屆政府面對嘅問題,可能係積累咗好多年嘅歷 14 史問題,但係既然各執法部門異口同聲同我哋講「圍標、黑社會滲透大維修市場, 15 各持份者其實經常用一啲不當嘅手法去經營大維修項目」,咁點解一場世紀大火發 16 生咗之後,大家先至會覺得大維修嘅各持份者係有問題,佢哋係可以自我監管。 17 政府嘅證人唔同意「監管真空」呢個講法,但係事實上我哋認為冇一個部門係 18 有效咁監督咗宏福苑嘅火警風險,居民嘅投訴係跌入咗主席所講嘅灰色地帶。大家 19 會知道委員會嘅職權範圍其實係要求我哋審視各個環節嘅監管人員,包括政府部門 20 人員,佢哋嘅角色同埋責任承擔,所以我哋有必要逐個部門去分析佢哋嘅角色同埋 21 責任,正如較早前講過,政府喺書面陳詞其實已經坦白咁承認咗自身嘅監管框架係 22 有系統性弱點,主動向委員會提咗較--對自身不利嘅資料,而政府嘅證人喺聽證會 23 上高亦都大致係坦誠咁作供,承認咗一啲嘅不足。雖然係咁,我哋都要探討下其實 24 喺個制度上高究竟發生咗啲咩嘢事? 25 第一個講嘅係ICU,宏福苑係已出售嘅居屋,屋宇署將呢一類型居屋嘅管制職 26 能授權咗畀房屋署轄下嘅獨立審查組,即係話喺宏福苑ICU 就係履行咗屋宇署嘅監 27 管角色。ICU 點樣理解自己嘅角色?時任總監劉輔國先生喺聽證會上同意委員會代 28 表大律師嘅講法,ICU 呢方面,其實係依書直說,盲目咁跟從咗BD 嘅做法。呢一 29 個係劉先生同意咗盤問佢嘅俞大律師嘅講法。安全審查呢個問題,我哋嘅睇法係 30 ICU 其實責無旁貸,唔可以淨係依賴屋宇署。講句公道話,劉先生補充話ICU 嘅盲 31 點,其實火災之後佢哋有積極去改善,呢個我哋係見到嘅。 32 其實一個監管機構可唔可以照跟另外一個部門,就算正正因為承建商、RI,唔 33 係每位都奉公守法,我哋見到有人偷工減料、有人會出術,監管機構其實係咪應該 34 不斷咁檢視自己嗰套做法,問一句「現時監管手法有冇漏洞?有冇盲點?有冇乘虛 35 而入?」如果從來都唔問呢個問題嘅監管架構,其實係唔會發現有人去逃避監管, 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第三十天

21 本謄本由 Epiq 編製,於聽證會中使用的部分英文詞句由獨立委員會秘書處補充。 更遑論個制度畀人濫用。我哋同意亦都明白喺現實嘅操作上其實係有好多痛點,亦 1 都有好多困難,尤其是你係去面對一啲唔誠實嘅持份者,所以我哋唔係去講ICU 處 2 理嘅工作係相當容易,或者有關嘅問題係非常之容易去解決,我哋嘅講法唔係咁。 3 但係ICU 佢哋亦都有承認,佢哋政策上高係跟從屋宇署嘅做法,甚至乎講係--講 4 得唔好聽啲就係盲跟。 5 但係個問題就係佢哋跟亦都冇跟足,大家知道ICU 喺宏福苑嘅施工期間,其實 6 係零實地安全巡查嘅,呢一方面同屋宇署嘅小型工程嘅做法,大家知道係截然不 7 同,呢個講法當然冇抵觸,咩嘢會觸發ICU 落場?似乎係有人投訴,冇投訴就冇巡 8 查,例如我覺得最好嘅例子,而家睇番包住成個宏福苑嗰啲帆布,大家知道喺棚上 9 高有,有啲亦都係遮蓋咗部分嘅物料。阻唔阻燃呢個問題喺火災之前似乎冇人關 10 注,因為冇人投訴過,居民亦都唔識投訴。對ICU 嚟講,似乎冇人投訴過,個問題 11 就一直喺度,冇人會發現到。 12 唔靠落場查,咁點樣去監管?佢哋靠睇文件,靠註冊驗樓人員,靠個RI。古小 13 平先生喺聽證會上高同我探討過呢個問題,齋係睇文件唔會睇到嗰個過程真係點 14 做,如果個RI 同個承建商佢講一套做一套,ICU 喺大維修入面有冇可能發現?佢 15 嘅答案亦都好坦白,佢話其實當時嘅制度上係睇唔到嘅。咁監察RI 同承建商呢個 16 責任變相落咗喺邊個度?落咗喺宏福苑嘅居民嗰度。 17 我亦都同佢探討過制度嘅設計係RI 去監察承建商,業主請RI,咁個RI 邊個 18 去監管?佢同意應該係有人監管,但係佢亦都承認喺報告完成之前,到--或者係進 19 行工程期間,大維修嘅時候,其實係冇一個監察嘅機制喺度。施工做幾耐,其實都 20 冇人監管過RI,古先生話喺制度上高當時係咁。我哋知道宏福苑嘅RI 出咗啲咩嘢 21 事,點解會有個咁嘅情況。 22 至於我頭先提過話沈先生喺2022 年,沈鉅忠先生過咗身,ICU 去到2024 年 23 10 月先知道。如果大家記得當時嘅文件紀錄,ICU 其實係去信咗鴻毅,佢講乜 24 嘢,佢話「工程由6 月起,一直冇RI」,仲另明--RI--ICU 咁講,「RI 正式委 25 任之前,其實你係唔應該做修葺工程嘅」。所以理論上高,ICU 係同佢講咗「你真 26 係要有個有效嘅RI 喺度嘅」。佢點做?佢初初唔答,跟住ICU 幾番追問之後,佢 27 終於交咗個表,佢就話「沈先生離世之後,已經即時將監督嘅工作交咗畀吳躍」。 28 我哋而家睇番,呢個係一個徹頭徹尾嘅大話。公司紀錄顯示沈先生死咗之後七 29 個月,其實鴻毅先係搵咗另一位RI 陳兆華先生做董事嘅,再過多十個月,先至到 30 吳躍接手,所以嗰個即時交接,前後17 個月,其實ICU 即係呢個講法其實係冇可 31 能成立。ICU 當時知唔知?ICU 係冇查過鴻毅呢個講法,佢哋亦都喺聽證會度承認 32 當時關心嘅係嗰張(English Spoken )嘅表格仲未交,紀錄上高有冇一個RI 33 嘅名。所以一個靠RI 自我監管嘅制度,撞正一個死咗冇即時更換嘅RI,換句話就 34 更換咗一個咩嘢RI?就淨係一個齋簽名嘅RI,所以其實成--如果講得俗少少,成 35 單嘢其實就係冇RI,亦都冇人監管過有冇RI。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第三十天

22 本謄本由 Epiq 編製,於聽證會中使用的部分英文詞句由獨立委員會秘書處補充。 喺一個冇投訴唔落場嘅情況底下,投訴嘅處理當然係唯一揭示問題嘅方法, 1 ICU 喺2024 年2 月到2025 年11 月收到其實約41 宗投訴同埋查詢,ICU 點樣 2 處理?我哋書面陳詞歸納咗四類回應,呢個喺陳詞嘅933 段,一,ICU 話有啲事情 3 係唔關佢哋事;第二,直接轉介鴻毅;第三,叫申請人--叫投訴人自己搵法團、物 4 管或者承建商,如果投訴係匿名、冇聯絡嘅方式,佢哋就唔受理。 5 主席、兩位委員,我哋喺書面陳詞嘅第937 段我哋係咁總結嘅,投訴喺ICU 6 當時機制主要嘅安全網,但係--係主要嘅安全網,但係實質處理手法方面,ICU 嘅 7 處理手法係被動,係靠一位從來冇見過嘅RI,法團主席徐滿柑先生其實喺2025 年 8 6 月喺WhatsApp 群組裏面咁樣講過,亦都好能夠代表居民嘅心情。佢本來希望 9 ICU 會跟進投訴,睇落去似乎佢哋唔會理。 10 另外,書面陳詞亦都有探討ICU 喺小型工程抽查制度嘅問題,其中比較重要嘅 11 抽查係關於宏昌閣同埋宏志閣嘅樓梯工程,大家會記得有關嘅表格其實夾咗一啲開 12 工前嘅相片,或者我哋可以睇一睇7.1 或者7.2 我哋嘅結案陳詞嗰啲相。395、 13 398。係,大家都會記得呢啲相片,大家見到咩嘢?見到樓梯本應係窗嘅位置其實 14 已經改咗生口,H 座個門仲係打開嘅。F 座嗰啲有鎖、有危險嘅貼紙、有警告圖 15 案,有幾頁嘅。 16 ICU 小型工程組睇完,佢哋係--大家知道佢哋係批咗嘅,佢哋話係妥當。當然 17 大家會問,ICU 嘅人員睇過啲相,會睇到啲生口,因為份檢查清單問嘅係--唔係- 18 -或者咁講,如果講得仔細一啲,其實應該咁講,大家會懷疑點解ICU 嘅職員睇完 19 之後佢哋唔發覺有問題,當時嘅解釋就係佢哋其實唔係去睇相裏面有啲咩嘢,其實 20 係睇有冇相,清唔清楚,有相,睇得清楚,似乎就過到關。 21 負責把關嘅高級專業人員,大家會記得有位容兆倫先生佢喺書面證供承認,當 22 時冇諗到啲係特登開嚟畀工人出入嘅生口,大家記得喺聽證會上高,我哋一張一張 23 相咁畀佢睇過,五層開一個生口呢個規律,佢當時承認其實佢冇留意,有鎖嗰張 24 相,我問「如果係用嚟保護個爛窗,其實--即係如果係旨在有個保護,點解有個鎖 25 喺度?」佢答「如果好留意去睇,係嘅。」 26 再睇埋明顯有道門開咗嗰張,佢就話其實佢係同意冇可能係用嚟做保護嘅,所 27 以書面陳詞嘅總結係呢啲相片,其實如果當時有專業知識嘅人員認真去睇,其實佢 28 哋係會知道有問題。 29 關於呢啲小型工程嘅審查,ICU 自己嘅手冊亦都寫明,「基本審查若發現明顯 30 違規,其實就應該做實地審查」,相片影住嘅其實正正就係明顯嘅違規,因為ICU 31 冇人員認真望,實地審查從來都冇發生過,所以呢個就正正反映咗冇投訴就唔落場 32 嘅問題。變咗其實個生口嘅問題,一般嘅市民如果唔識投訴,而好老實咁講,如果 33 唔係今次嘅聽證會,相信一般嘅市民都唔會留意到其實走火樓梯開咗個窿,個問題 34 喺邊度?即係冇專業知識嘅人士係唔會識投訴。 35 當然,我哋知道而家政府都同意,呢種審查程序查內容嘅--唔查內容嘅審查設 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第三十天

23 本謄本由 Epiq 編製,於聽證會中使用的部分英文詞句由獨立委員會秘書處補充。 計係一個弱點喇,所以就呢方面嘅問題,我哋同政府嘅睇法其實係一樣。 1 跟住我想講發泡膠板嘅問題,呢個亦都係值得我哋仔細啲咁去探討,第一個投 2 訴,2024 年9 月,經1823 系統嚟嘅,居民自己燒過,發現啲發泡膠易燃,管委 3 會話會貼喺每戶嘅窗上高嘅,當時,F、G、H 座旁邊已經其實大家記得堆--相片顯 4 示,堆住咗好多發泡膠,即係話呢啲易燃物嘅規模好明顯地係全苑嘅,亦都打算廣 5 泛使用,呢啲嘢ICU 佢睇到嘅話,冇可能唔知道。 6 古小平先生喺9 月25 日係有落場嘅,佢親眼見到大批發泡膠,亦都親眼見到 7 有窗係封咗嘅。10 月28 日,佢亦都同宏業講「發泡膠可能對居民構成火警危險 8 喎。」我哋頭先都講過,宏業就呃佢,話其實一次做三層,做完就拆嘅。有一個問 9 題喺呢度我哋要去記錄嘅,佢呢啲嘅對話我哋都係喺個聽證會之後先見到,當時係 10 冇做記錄。 11 中間大家會記得有一段插曲,ICU 嘅古小平先生話其實佢喺9 月尾曾經口頭請 12 教過屋宇署借調到ICU 嗰位謝錦明先生,Franko Tse,佢話對方嘅回覆係「臨 13 時封窗就唔算建築工程,冇阻燃要求,唔屬可執管嘅事項。」謝先生係唔認同呢個 14 講法,佢嘅講法係佢做過格蘭菲爾大廈嗰個火警嘅跟進工作之後,話自己對外牆嘅 15 發泡膠物料非常敏感,唔可能咁答,佢形容呢個係對佢唔公平嘅指控。 16 但係其實佢兩位都同意一點嘅,呢次口頭質詢其實古先生係冇畀過啲相、啲投 17 訴,或者封咗幾多隻窗,或者封咗幾耐,呢啲資料其實佢冇畀謝先生嘅。所以我哋 18 而家嘅睇法就係,其實呢段口頭對話實質上佢哋講咗啲乜嘢,或者佢哋有啲唔同嘅 19 記憶,呢個都唔係一個關鍵,關鍵其實喺邊度,關鍵其實係ICU 當時其實根本上冇 20 掌握發泡膠板用到幾廣泛,會用幾耐,所以古先生知道--唔知道--其實當時我哋亦 21 都問過佢,佢唔知道全苑其實千九幾戶都係封咗足足15 個月嘅。 22 謝先生亦都喺聽證會確認咗一樣好重要嘅嘢,大規模長時間咁封窗係冇可能符 23 合建築物建造嘅規例第16 條,第16 條我哋睇過好多次,亦都同好多證人探討過。 24 其實真正嘅問題係跟住落嚟嗰15 個月,ICU 從來冇問宏業攞過任何發泡膠嘅證 25 書、測試報告或者物料嘅規格,從來冇問過每段打鑿做幾耐,啲發泡膠板留幾耐。 26 2024 年11 月18 日,最後一次就發泡膠嘅跟進係問宏業自己有冇跟進,宏業話 27 有,ICU 似乎收咗貨。 28 之後喺11 月,ICU 收到啲投訴嘅相片,1 月自己影咗一啲巡邏嘅相片,3 月 29 喺鴻毅嚟嘅簡報裏面,入面有21 張相同埋有條片,6 月佢哋自己再影,7 月 30 WhatsApp 再收到啲相,其實大家喺聽證會度都睇咗,其實張張都有影住啲發泡膠 31 封窗。ICU 似乎冇人問過一句「點解啲發泡膠過咗咁多個月仲喺度嘅?唔係三層、 32 三層咁做㗎咩?」古小平先生喺聽證會上高承認冇人再投訴,喺ICU 冇跟進,呢個 33 係主因。 34 跟住我哋會問,似乎發泡膠,好多市民都會覺得係易燃嘅,即係同個生口唔 35 同,生口可能佢哋唔識,但係發泡膠好多人覺得會係常識,咁點解冇人投訴?呢個 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第三十天

24 本謄本由 Epiq 編製,於聽證會中使用的部分英文詞句由獨立委員會秘書處補充。 我哋覺得好可能因為其實ICU 回覆市民嘅投訴嘅時候,佢哋亦都自己講過話發泡膠 1 係冇法例規管嘅,而家我哋大家都知道呢個唔係一個正確嘅講法,當時我哋喺陳詞 2 970 段提到,佢哋叫投訴人自己搵番宏業,相反我哋用呢一個去對比屋宇署嘅立 3 場,屋宇署講得好清楚,大規模用發泡膠封窗其實違反咗16 條,亦都違反咗採光 4 通風嘅規例。換句話講,其實ICU 當時嘅理解係唔準確,而你咁同咗啲居民講,啲 5 居民點解會去再投訴?呢個我哋覺得亦都對居民嚟講造成咗好大嘅問題。 6 至於ICU 畀宏業呃咗話發泡膠只係臨時使用呢個大話,其實全屋苑啲居民其實 7 開窗,或者開唔到窗,應該咁話,都知道係假嘅,所以其實我哋就呢一方面,政府 8 嘅陳詞裏面佢哋都承認,ICU 對發泡膠嘅一事多次巡查抽檢之後,都冇主動徹底咁 9 跟進,政府亦都好坦誠咁,其實喺佢哋嘅結案陳詞第589 段係同意咗呢一樣嘢嘅。 10 跟住講番棚網,ICU 當然我哋知道有預先通知巡查,我哋--我想講清楚嘅就 11 係,我哋冇證據,我哋都唔係話有關嘅負責嘅ICU 嘅職員係有任何收受利益,或者 12 有任何串謀,或者佢哋同承建商打龍通,冇證據顯示到呢啲嘢,我哋講嘅其實只係 13 話,呢個做法其實係畀咗個機會承建商魚目混珠,我哋大家都已經睇過好多次相關 14 嘅證據,佢哋唔做突擊檢查,其實同時個問題係咩嘢,佢哋唔做,但係其他部門有 15 做個喎,所以嗰一個唔吻合嘅地方顯而易見。 16 另外ICU 用打火機做快速測試,大家亦都知道呢個唔可靠、唔科學,屋宇署其 17 實根本唔會採用呢個方法去做測試,我哋喺陳詞嘅1021.7 段都講到。至於2024 18 年10 月28 號嗰個測試,其實最困擾大家嘅地方就係明明已經見到棚網燒足咗十 19 秒,古小平先生其實向屋宇署嘅匯報係冇提過呢件事嘅。最後打風之後個更換棚網 20 嘅證書,ICU 由頭到尾都冇攞過,古先生嘅解釋係宏業呃咗佢,話嗰兩批棚網其實 21 係同一個生產商出產嘅,咁古先生聽到就收咗貨,冇質疑、冇跟進,亦都冇要佢哋 22 攞出證明。 23 當然,我哋而家知道大火之後,其實當局係有急起直追,屋宇署推出咗新嘅作 24 業備考(English Spoken )85,以後棚網嘅證書由政府指定嘅認可實驗室核 25 實,全港嘅私人樓宇其實做咗一輪嘅檢查嘅,檢查到發現啲咩嘢?230 棟大廈嘅棚 26 網因為唔達標要即時咁樣去拆除。即係話其實宏福苑呢個問題其實唔係--應該唔係 27 單一嘅個案。 28 喺ICU 責任方面,或者我哋可以咁樣去總結,喺關鍵嘅施工期間,ICU 其實冇 29 提供過任何有效嘅監管,居民一次又一次提出嘅憂慮,ICU 似乎一次又一次錯過 30 咗。非阻燃棚網同生口嘅重要性同埋嘅影響,我相信我哋唔需要再重複。 31 跟住我哋想討論屋宇署,屋宇署當然唔係前線,因為佢哋授權咗ICU 之後,佢 32 哋嘅角色係點?屋宇署授權文件同一個備忘錄MOU 本身係有一套確保水準一致嘅機 33 制,包括屋宇署可以喺有需要嘅時候,其實審核ICU 嘅工作。既然有呢個機制,大 34 家會問「咁有冇做過?做過幾多次?」大家會記得助理處長張玉清女士喺聽證會上 35 高佢承認,據佢嘅認知,強制驗樓呢方面我哋冇抽佢哋嘅工作嚟做嘅,我問點解, 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第三十天

25 本謄本由 Epiq 編製,於聽證會中使用的部分英文詞句由獨立委員會秘書處補充。 佢話佢呢個位置答唔到。係嘅,因為呢個係另外一個同事嘅範疇。 1 ICU 嘅劉輔國先生都有確認,屋宇署其實從來係冇審核過ICU 喺強制驗樓方面 2 嘅工作。有一個亦都係比較殘酷嘅結論,如果佢哋審核過相關嘅工作,結果會唔會 3 唔一樣? 4 頭先提及屋宇署自己係喺2023 年4 月實施,喺進行緊嘅第一級小型工程抽 5 20%做實地安全檢查,但係屋宇署冇話畀ICU 知,大家都知道嗰個溝通嘅問題喺邊 6 度,ICU 幾時知道呢個政策?2025 年12 月22 號,大火之後,容兆倫先生承認如 7 果ICU 早啲知道呢個政策跟住做,佢嘅講法就係發現到生口嘅機會相當高。 8 講埋棚網嘅阻燃證書,屋宇署自己嘅做法雖然都係紙上嘅審查,但係佢哋起碼 9 會查發證機構,係咪認可嘅實驗室,係咪喺互認名單之內,即係話當日負責收宏福 10 苑張證書嘅係屋宇署,唔係ICU 嘅話,佢哋會可能查下,「呢個機構係咪存在 11 㗎?」呢個基本動作其實可能已經發現到個機構個名似乎有啲唔妥,張證書可能有 12 問題。當然,真正有效嘅方法可能就係而家PM85 嗰個場內抽樣實驗室化驗。 13 最後喺小型工程分類嘅問題,大家都知道從開案陳詞,大家都有一路討論呢個 14 問題,一項3 億3 千萬,八層樓--八座高樓大廈,住幾千人嘅屋苑入面,做外牆個 15 維修如果喺法律上高分類仍然係小型工程,我哋相信呢一個唔合理,而就呢一方 16 面,喺政府提交嘅改善措施裏面其實已經針對咗。 17 主席、兩位委員,跟住我會講消防處。就消防處,我哋嘅陳詞就係喺監管火警 18 危險方面,其實佢哋有權力咁去做。但係當時嘅情況似乎係喺佢哋嘅認知同埋佢哋 19 嘅分工嘅時候,有啲事情係交咗畀房屋署同埋ICU。我哋探討過《消防條例》第7 20 條,消防處嘅職責包括滅火,喺火警時保護生命及財產,同埋最緊要嘅就係就防火 21 嘅措施及火警危險提供建議。第2 條,將火警危險定義得好闊,任何實質上增加火 22 警危險或其他災難發生的可能性的其他事物或情況,其實都係計算在內嘅。第8 23 (1)(c)條,畀處長權力隨時入樓查明有冇火警危險,而處長楊恩健先生喺聽證 24 會上高亦都有同意,消防處嘅權力其他部門係未必有。喺第9 條,佢哋可以發出消 25 除火警危險通知書,即係我哋所講嘅(English Spoken),唔執法,其實消防 26 處仲可以自己動手清除。 27 我同處長睇過,大家都會記得(English Spoken)嗰個法庭嘅案例講得好 28 清楚,消防處長嘅職能廣泛而全面,唔係淨係管主動嘅消防裝置,就算屋宇署喺樓 29 宇消防上有角色,呢個唔等於消防處唔使理。我同處長睇咗判詞好幾個段落,佢同 30 意嘅地方包括係唔可以一刀切話被動嘅消防設施唔關消防處事。當然,呢個理解同 31 當時實際嘅運作係有出入嘅。處長喺證供裏面提到屋宇署同埋消防處有明確嘅分 32 工,助理處長翁錦雄就話建築物料、被動消防設施、棚網,佢哋認為係歸屋宇署或 33 者ICU,佢哋亦都承認當時嘅分工喺《消防條例》裏面就係搵唔到嘅,而問到一道 34 被打開頂住防煙門嘅被動消防裝置,佢話消防處當時--消防處會當火警危險去處 35 理。其實我哋而家去睇番,就係當時佢哋就呢個分工亦都係自己設立咗一啲限制畀 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第三十天

26 本謄本由 Epiq 編製,於聽證會中使用的部分英文詞句由獨立委員會秘書處補充。 自己,顯而易見係由2022 年到2025 年嘅11 月,消防處係收到至少二十宗關於 1 宏福苑嘅消防設施同投訴,但係其實係冇一宗採取過執法行動。 2 講到呢一度,我都想回應其中琴日孫大律師提到一點,我哋明白同埋同意係需 3 要有分工,政府各部門嘅分工好多時亦都係好仔細,當然有分工就可能會有盲點或 4 者痛點,所以呢個反映就係部門之間嘅溝通其實相當重要。我諗我哋要防止嘅就係 5 正如主席同兩位委員所講,分工時候一定要清晰,一定要有人有兜底責任,呢個喺 6 我哋之後講建議嘅時候,我哋會重複。 7 陸啟康法官:其實喺嗰個(English Spoken )嗰個(English Spoken)入面,嗰個 8 (English Spoken)法官喺引用番嗰陣時,睇番個立法背景嘅時候,其實係強 9 調咗部門個溝通係重要嘅,即係喺立法嗰陣時,其實已經有講過呢一樣嘢,咁即係 10 所以其實都值得深思嘅呢樣嘢。 11 杜淦堃資深大律師:冇錯,我哋明白政府其實係一個好龐大嘅機構,其實有好多事情係需要 12 分工,而喺處理事情上高遇到有盲點同痛點呢個係不足為奇嘅,但係呢件事件嘅教 13 訓就係喺呢啲事情上高,其實係真係要努力啲去深思熟慮。 14 陸啟康法官:唔係,我諗如果係即係個溝通係非常之重要,可能即係如果尤其是兩個部門一 15 齊管嘅時候,咁就即係其實個案例係立法原意嗰陣時都有講過。 16 杜淦堃資深大律師:如果我哋繼續去睇另外一個喺聽證會上高大家可能會覺得有問題嘅題 17 目,就係嗰個掛牌制度。根據大火前嘅制度,消防設施停用通知書一張可以延期14 18 日,到期可以一續再續,其實係冇上限嘅。從落實到執行大家都會聽過呢啲數位, 19 但係呢啲數位望落去,其實真係令人咋舌。中華發展交咗93 張SDN,當中85 張 20 延期,消防處收到SDN 都有到場做風險評估,但26 次到場冇一個消防人員係入過 21 消防泵房睇下消防栓嘅系統係咪關閉。不幸嘅係其實我諗如果佢哋係有入到嗰個泵 22 房,個結果可能會好唔同。當然冇入泵房個後果係唔知道一個掣控制兩個系統,但 23 係其實消防處內部嘅紀錄當時係寫「情況與通知書所述相同」。結果宏泰閣停咗 24 234 日,17 張掛牌嘅續期,消防處當時其實係冇問過點解停咁耐。 25 主席,我明白處理呢啲維修嘅個案亦都涉及一個政府資源同埋佢哋執法先後嘅 26 問題。姜世民助理處長喺我同佢探討嘅時候,佢都提出咗一個可能大家之前冇留意 27 嘅地方,香港好多舊式大廈樓宇嘅維修你有法團,有註冊消防承辦商,呢啲可能已 28 經係一個比較妥當嘅情況。因為佢哋其實執法嗰個優先,好多時放咗喺一啲佢哋叫 29 做「三無大廈」,你又冇法團,又冇註冊嘅消防承辦商,有好多呢啲舊式大廈其實 30 個情況係更加嚴重同冇人理。最近亦都有媒體就呢一件事做過一啲嘅調查,可能大 31 家都留意過,其實個情況係嚴重。所以我哋明白其實執法先後當然係有佢嘅困難喺 32 度,但係呢個唔代表當時嘅制度係冇問題。14 日內要提交完工證明,中華發展大家 33 會記得發生咗咩嘢事呢?佢遲交咗半年。在消防處其實係幾時呢?佢遲咗兩個月先 34 入個落個系統嗰度,法例要求14 日提交證明,其實係八個月先處理。 35 最後喺制度方面,消防處同埋屋宇署當時可能真係冇留意到大維修嘅各種風 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第三十天

27 本謄本由 Epiq 編製,於聽證會中使用的部分英文詞句由獨立委員會秘書處補充。 險,八座31 層高住滿人嘅大廈做緊大維修,竹棚、棚網、發泡膠可燃物料包住; 1 似乎係有大量嘅工人食煙而被投訴;消防栓系統停咗幾個月。主席問過姜世明先 2 生,「大維修工程地盤危險之外,仲有人住喺度,火警風險係咪差唔多最高?」佢 3 嘅答案你會記得,佢話「今日嚟睇,同意係。」 4 再講遠少少,其實格蘭菲爾研訊,大家知道係分階段出報告,喺佢第一階段嘅 5 報告裏面,入面有三項嘅裁斷,其實同今次宏福苑我哋要處理嘅問題,其實都係有 6 相當大嘅關連。第一,外牆可燃物乘火勢急速蔓延嘅主因。第二,消防員唔知相關 7 物料可燃,冇為呢類嘅火制訂應變。第三,維修期間對到過現場嘅隊伍冇受過相關 8 調查嘅訓練。呢一啲都係大家需要深思熟慮嘅問題。 9 公道啲咁講,其實格蘭菲爾之後,消防處同屋宇署的確有做過檢討嘅,佢哋全 10 港搜查咗有可燃外牆覆蓋嘅樓宇,其實係有制訂咗應變,嗰次嘅檢討其實係針對樓 11 宇採用嘅永久物料,但係當時就冇人諗到維修期間用嘅臨時物料。但係正如 12 (English Spoken)係講過一句「如果睇番呢類型嘅火警,真係唔係第一次發 13 生,係冇人將過往火災嘅重點連成一條線咁去諗,火警風險佢嘅原話係『預見得 14 到,但冇人預見』。」消防處同屋宇署作為設計樓宇防火制度嘅主要部門,其實佢 15 哋就呢件事係責無旁貸。 16 最後,我哋陳詞亦都有講,係喺1132 段,以上嘅批評其實完全唔係針對撲救 17 宏福苑大火嘅消防員,佢哋嘅勇氣,包括何偉豪消防員其實係最值得我哋最深切嘅 18 敬意。喺講到呢度,喺火災之後嘅嗰套執法制度,其實同火災之前我哋知道已經有 19 好大嘅分別,但係喺火災之前似乎有關嘅制度係預測唔到或者避免唔到相關隱患。 20 最後,我想講--唔係最後,最後一個比較主要要提嘅係勞工處。勞工處個角色 21 畀我提及過其他部門相對少。勞工處管職安健,地盤工人嘅火警風險喺佢哋嘅職權 22 之內,勞工處嘅執法工具其實唔少嘅大家知道,檢控、停工通知、改善通知、警告 23 信。維修期間,勞工處其實係去宏福苑巡邏咗17 次,包括初次嘅巡查、每一兩個 24 月一次嘅例行巡查,同埋一啲投訴巡查。宏福苑咁多宗投訴,雖然佢哋有做巡查, 25 但係我哋知道係冇檢控。食煙我哋知道可能係火警嘅原因,居民喺十六個月裏面向 26 勞工處投訴咗9 次,9 次嘅結果全部都係不能確立,呢個可能同佢哋嘅執法方式有 27 極大嘅關係。工人見到有關勞工處嘅人員嚟到現場,當然佢哋唔會吸煙,如果用呢 28 個方法去做,可能實質上嘅執法亦都係唔係太有效。法例本身喺53 條有禁煙令, 29 勞工處嘅解讀我哋都係覺得相當狹窄,佢哋話棚架上高有大量可燃物,唔算涉及火 30 警危險物質或者物品,所以由頭到尾一張禁煙令其實都係冇出過。 31 剛才提到勞工處嘅角色唔係停喺呢度,佢哋其實係收過棚網嘅證書,收到同一 32 張兩次都冇發覺問題,先後嘅唔同佢哋係睇唔到。仲有林秀青女士回覆個居民話棚 33 網冇阻燃標準,我哋亦都係覺得呢個明顯地係錯,顯示有關部門其實對法例嘅理解 34 亦都係有問題。 35 至於樓梯生口,勞工處嘅17 次巡查過,亦都未有去過走火樓梯。佢哋話相關 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第三十天

28 本謄本由 Epiq 編製,於聽證會中使用的部分英文詞句由獨立委員會秘書處補充。 嘅《勞工法例》係唔適用於有人住嘅樓宇,呢個講法我哋係唔能夠同意,走火樓梯 1 其實喺著火嗰陣,其實工人都係會用嚟走火。所以勞工處喺處理呢個事件上高,雖 2 然佢哋嘅角色比其他部門係較少,但係亦都有可以改進嘅地方。 3 另外有其他政府部門有參與,為求全面,我簡單交代。警務處喺火災前對樓宇 4 工程、消防裝置冇任何法定嘅監管角色,佢哋嘅角色係當日應變。民政總署負責樓 5 宇嘅管理政策,唔係消防監管者,轉介投訴上嘅角色,佢哋其實係負責統籌大廈嘅 6 管治。市建局唔係樓宇管制或者消防當局,佢哋其實主要參與係「招標妥」呢一個 7 問題,我哋之後會探討。 8 主席、兩位,綜合我頭先一個多小時嘅陳詞,我哋有以下嘅總結。喺委員會席 9 前嘅政府之中,喺消防安全嘅監管上高嘅責任,其實係在於ICU、房屋署、消防 10 處,以及就職業火警風險而言,勞工處。其實貫穿呢一張,個問題可能都係個人 11 「信」字。ICU 信咗RI,消防處信咗承辦商,勞工處同ICU 佢哋信咗張證書,屋 12 宇署信咗ICU 個誠信制度,遇著冇誠信嘅壞分子,制度全面瓦解。我哋呢方面嘅陳 13 詞係有關嘅問題係系統性同埋遍及嗰個層面,改革唔可以小修小補,係需要結構性 14 咁做。下一部分我哋會講建議。 15 就消防安全建議方面,我諗我哋可以比較簡短咁去講,大原則,喺我哋陳詞第 16 8 章載有我哋喺消防安全方面嘅建議,三個大原則我哋想講清楚嘅。第一,每項建 17 議完全基於聽證會聽到嘅證據同埋委員會職權範圍裏面牽涉嘅問題。第二,政府近 18 日已經公佈一系列措施,積極堵塞火災暴露出嚟嘅明顯漏洞,我哋嘅建議亦都係基 19 於呢啲措施,再睇下可唔可以行多一步,或者提一啲嘅建議等政府可以再去探討同 20 諮詢。第三,有啲措施可能大家會覺得係額外審慎嘅,嗰啲通常係一啲臨時嘅措 21 施,即係我哋唔預見呢啲措施係會長期使用,但係關乎人命嘅事情,我諗大家都會 22 同意寧緊勿鬆,日後經過諮詢同埋研究,可能得出嚟嘅結論係唔同,亦可能係可以 23 用其他嘅方法去處理。 24 我哋首先講一講三項即時或者臨時嘅措施,呢啲係對168 條人命,嗰三個直接 25 嘅造成嘅因素提出嘅。大家都會記得(English Spoken)講過,佢哋認為應該 26 即時禁止喺光井等高危嘅外牆位置使用可燃嘅臨時物料;亦都禁止喺地下嘅出入口 27 擺放呢啲易燃嘅物料;禁止使用發泡膠封窗,理由係基本上呢啲物料一著火,其實 28 大家都知道會熔化做一啲滴落,連本來比較難燒著嘅竹棚喺高溫下都會變成燃料。 29 有關嘅解決方案就係減少外牆、光井、出口嘅可燃物料。 30 第二,屋宇署喺2026 年3 月嘅通函已經行出咗第一步,屋宇署同ICU 亦已 31 經開始就外牆可燃物料做突擊調查,政府亦都係檢討緊《建築物條例》,將物料安 32 全標準直接寫入法例,違者刑事處分,我哋亦都支持呢個做法,我哋覺得有迫切 33 性。 34 第二,其實係即時禁止走火通道開任何生口,大家會記得宏福苑嘅問題,走火 35 嘅通道嘅重要性大家唔使再提。我哋覺得樓梯同埋𨋢大堂嘅窗,其實係亦都應該係 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第三十天

29 本謄本由 Epiq 編製,於聽證會中使用的部分英文詞句由獨立委員會秘書處補充。 一律用達標嘅防火玻璃。順帶一提,一啲舊樓嘅樓梯窗同埋𨋢嘅大堂本身可能有啲 1 可以打開嘅窗,居民係咪應該即時關好呢啲窗,而長遠做一啲密封嘅防火窗,呢個 2 係消防處應該考慮嘅問題。 3 另外有一個喺宏福苑大火之後,公眾普遍都會問過嘅問題。多座屋苑嘅外牆工 4 程係咪一定要分開做?大家知道今次有個火燒連環船嘅問題,當然每一個屋苑情況 5 唔同,而有啲情況如果唔一齊搭棚可能係有成本嘅問題,我哋完全理解。但係最重 6 要嘅係個做法會唔會有助火警嘅蔓延。喺宏福苑呢個例子如果係分期進行,結果會 7 相當唔同,呢個係--呢啲係幾個我哋覺得重要同埋迫切嘅問題。 8 長遠嘅改革,書面陳詞分咗十一個範疇幾十項建議,我唔會逐個探討,我想只 9 係喺度講幾個重點。第一,物料嘅測試同埋認證,巡查改做突擊,唔預先通知,證 10 書一律由認可嘅實驗室獨立咁核實,再唔係承建商交乜信乜,屋宇署火災後嘅《作 11 業備考85》行出咗第一步,證書要由政府只定嘅認可實驗室發出同核實,我哋希望 12 政府可以考慮係咪需要行多步,場外抽樣,批次同棚網上高要做到對號,我哋杜絕 13 嘅係你驗一批,但係其他佢係掛第二批。 14 竹棚同尼龍網,研究同埋資助業界過渡去金屬棚架、玻璃纖維或者其他唔助燃 15 嘅物料,當然我哋唔係話要一刀切咁去改變,但係呢方面嘅研究係喺長遠嚟講係需 16 要去做。全面檢視SDN 掛牌制度,呢個消防處係同意同埋係會去做。推行電子系統 17 嘅FS251,2026 年7 月1 日起已經強制使用,遲交、唔交一眼睇晒,取消終身 18 牌,承建商五年一續。發現消防裝置失效,24 小時內必須上報,我哋覺得呢個係絕 19 對嘅責任。另外一啲例如喺總掣上高一啲加上防干預嘅封條,相信呢一個亦都係最 20 近已經係開始咗做,而我哋覺得係有必要。 21 另外,就係賦予消防處對於一啲高風險,有人居住嘅大廈樓宇維修,消防處可 22 以要求做一個幹化嘅工程評估。專家喺聽證會上高同意取得一個平衡嘅,就唔係話 23 你做咩嘢工程你都要做一個風險評估,我哋明白呢個涉及成本嘅,即係我哋都要實 24 際咁去做,所以亦都唔係話以後要好劃一嘅標準去處理所有問題,但係一旦有咗標 25 準化同科學化風險評估架構,亦都可以用我哋本案做過一啲嘅測試去考慮下相關嘅 26 規例應該係點樣去制訂。 27 第九,地盤禁煙,大家知道琴日立法會亦都有相關法例通過,又係即時生效。 28 跨部門協作,訂立跨部門嘅擬訂書,資料庫互通,屋宇署嘅備忘錄行常審核。ICU 29 聯合嘅突擊檢查,目標係就好簡單,以後每一宗消防嘅投訴,其實我哋覺得需要有 30 一個部門去兜底。 31 另外,關於修訂《建築物條例》,我哋知道呢個亦都係被考慮同埋甚至乎係進 32 行中。規管臨時建築物料,大型外牆工程由II 級升到第I 級小型工程,三億幾嘅 33 維修工程唔可以叫做小型。用不合格物料嘅時候亦都應該考慮係咪應該直接刑事 34 化,提高刑事罰則。仲亦都要考慮光井係咪應該好似嘉利大廈大火之後,用𨋢槽嘅 35 規管辦法,因為其實兩個唔同嘅情況亦都有佢哋相似嘅地方。重建RI 制度,呢個 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第三十天

30 本謄本由 Epiq 編製,於聽證會中使用的部分英文詞句由獨立委員會秘書處補充。 係一個唔容易嘅做法,我哋亦都諮詢咗業界,RI 嘅實地監督責任其實唔可以轉售, 1 我哋要杜絕一啲RI 借名嘅做法。 2 其實喺政策嘅層面上一定要搵到適當人選,而喺個人紀律、罰款上高,我哋覺 3 得亦都需要提高。科技,科技其實貫穿咗我哋提過好多唔同嘅問題,由檢查、抽樣 4 調查、救火,其實每一個範疇都應該多運用而家嘅科技,我哋探討使用智能嘅感應 5 器、居民手機嘅火警警示程式,去堵塞呢啲知道起火太遲嘅缺口。至於政府巡查嘅 6 文化,其實我哋覺得亦都係要訂立一啲最低巡查嘅比率。強制驗樓可以考慮做有一 7 系列嘅里程碑,例如ICU 廢除16 宗調查嘅上限,改番用屋宇署自己開嘅ISO 8 2859-1 抽樣標準。消防處評估風險應該亦都要實地驗證消防措施嘅狀態,包括進 9 入泵房。滅火同埋疏散亦都係消防處要考慮嘅範疇,今次宏福苑嘅問題係大家冇遇 10 到疏散嗰個困難。 11 喺呢方面如果可以容許我作出以下嘅小結,我哋明白喺過往嘅委員會調查裏 12 面,其實有一啲嘅提議係好仔細嘅,我哋喺書面陳詞裏面其實亦都有一啲例子,提 13 出咗係咪可以仔細啲咁去做一啲嘅建議。譬如有一啲罰則我哋覺得大量提高,可能 14 我哋寫做一個數,但係我哋明白其實委員會嘅建議應該係方向性,同埋有啲事情真 15 係要再諮詢業界,政府亦都要考慮可行性同平衡各樣嘅因素。但係對於大廈嘅安 16 全,對於防火而言,呢啲事情係唔等得,所以我哋希望所有檢討都係從速咁去做, 17 我哋見到過去呢幾個月有啲有建設性嘅做法已經做咗。 18 主席、兩位委員,跟住我會去到第六部分,係圍標同埋相關嘅不當行為。或者 19 我哋可以早五分鐘午飯,我午飯之後再探討呢啲問題。 20 陸啟康法官:好,我哋而家押後到2 點15 分。 21

22 12 時52 分聽證會押後 23 14 時15 分聽證會恢復 24

25 杜淦堃資深大律師:主席、兩位委員,跟住會嚟到第六部分,係涉及圍標同埋相關嘅不當行 26 為。職權範圍第二段要求委員會研究大型樓宇維修招標入面嘅圍標、貪污,同其他 27 不當行為嘅普遍性。開始之前,我哋必須要講清楚,之前亦都講過㗎嘞,宏福苑本 28 身嘅招標有冇圍標,呢個唔係委員會需要認定嘅問題。相關嘅刑事程序其實大家都 29 知道已經係進行中,唔應該受到任何干預。我哋嘅做法係將有關大家喺今次聽證會 30 收到或者睇到嘅呢啲證據展示出嚟,睇下職權範圍第二段底下係唔係存在一啲系統 31 性嘅問題。 32 首先喺市場層面,我哋想同大家講一講呢一個問題有幾普遍,執法機構畀委員 33 會嘅證據顯示,其實圍標喺樓宇維修嘅市場唔係偶然發生,係常態。競委會,之前 34 大家都聽過佢哋嘅陳詞,佢哋歸納咗七種唔同手法,我唔需要再重複。佢哋提供嘅 35 案例研究裏面有承建商係唔肯合作圍標,結果被有三合會背景人士毆打。有啲 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第三十天

31 本謄本由 Epiq 編製,於聽證會中使用的部分英文詞句由獨立委員會秘書處補充。 WhatsApp 群組叫做圍標做功課嘅群組,有啲單一招標,廿幾個投標者入面其實有 1 唔同嘅集團喺度角力,呢一啲嘅證據我哋喺競委會嘅陳詞裏面可能都會留意到。 2 廉政公署方面,佢哋嘅分析就解釋咗其實點解咁難去察覺同埋執法,呢一類嘅 3 貪污冇案發現場、冇報案人,各個參與者都多時都係得益者。掛名嘅RI 係圍標項 4 目嘅標準配件,請個假嘅檢驗人員返嚟簽名,令到個項目睇落合法,亦都有物管公 5 司係收承建商3%至5%嘅回佣,甚至乎有三合會滲透。 6 除咗執法機構嘅證據,其實委員會都收到好多市民呈交嘅資料,幾個其他屋苑 7 嘅業主亦都主動向委員會講述自己屋苑維修招標嘅類似經歷,好明顯宏福苑唔係孤 8 島,係一個全港性嘅市場問題。而大家可能喺媒體度睇到事態嘅最新發展,大家都 9 知道競委會2026 年3 月採取行動,點名11 個屋苑,涉及合約總值7 億元,宏福 10 苑係其中一個。火災之後,警方同廉署亦都有聯合行動,已經有7 個人同埋2 間公 11 司被落案起訴25 項控罪,包括誤殺,呢啲刑事程序將會繼續落去。 12 我哋跟住落嚟會去睇下宏福苑自己嘅招標過程,我想將宏福苑嘅情況同我哋喺 13 有關機構收返嚟,一啲平時有違規嘅情況嘅例子擺埋一齊睇下,我哋先將整個過程 14 講一次,當然事實嘅部分喺書面陳詞第2 章C 節有詳細嘅記述。情況係咁嘅,喺宏 15 福苑嚟講,2018 年法團就參加市建局嘅「招標妥」計劃,市建局亦都係委任咗呢 16 個獨立嘅顧問係富邦測量師行做初步評估,強制驗樓必要維修工程嘅基本做價,大 17 家記得當時嘅做價係--個估值係$1 億208 萬。之後嗰年嘞,2019 年1 月25 日 18 嘅業主大會,鴻毅用咗222,000 鈫中咗強制驗樓嘅嗰張標,嗰一次一共有24 張 19 標,標價由$88,000 到$108 萬,平均價大概$50 萬。呢度有兩個細節我哋想提 20 一提,盤問嘅時候可能大家都會記得,第一,鴻毅本來開價$24 萬,法團冇要求底 21 下佢哋自己減價到$222,000,解釋係話要盡社會責任。而佢哋嘅標價其實仲貴過 22 第二名嘅遠東測量師樓,遠東其實係$188,000 ,結果係點大家會記得,2,999 23 票,即係67.5%對342 票7.7%,換句話講佢哋係壓倒性咁樣樣去贏咗呢張標。 24 大勝之後又點呢?授權記票嘅紀錄亦都顯示咗一啲大家可能留意過嘅嘢,時任 25 主席鄧國權先生佢當日投票嘅時候手持71 張授權票,副主席陳德誠64 張,秘書陳 26 萬祥先生51 張,另外有委員洗麗媚女士12 張,其實四個人合共代表2,575 個業 27 權份數投票,呢一個授權票對於鴻毅嘅委任起咗關鍵嘅作用。而市建局喺呢一關其 28 實做過啲乜嘢呢?RI 招標當年係未有電子平台,市建局提供咗做一個DIY 嘅工作 29 包同埋一張標價一覽表,標價合唔合理佢哋係唔會畀意見,到管委會開會討論標書 30 嘅時候,佢哋亦都會離場,佢哋嘅講法係要避嫌。書面陳詞我哋喺1,360 段指出 31 咗呢一步其實錯失咗一個關鍵嘅機會,RI 係成個工程項目嘅把關人,如果呢個RI 32 唔妥當咁就接咗單工程,就等於成場波個球證畀人收買咗,之後啲單如果係搞到越 33 嚟越大,好多時都係由RI 去擺佈。 34 到2021 年12 月11 日,鴻毅再用$308,000 中埋工程顧問嘅招標。有一點 35 要留意嘅,「招標妥」其實只係涵蓋承建商嗰一關,檢驗招標同埋顧問招標唔喺計 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第三十天

32 本謄本由 Epiq 編製,於聽證會中使用的部分英文詞句由獨立委員會秘書處補充。 劃嘅範圍,市建局對呢個招標價嘅合理性亦都唔會畀意見。跟住去到2023 年,承 1 建商招標,99 間公司下載咗標書,57 間入標,14 間入圍面試。2024 年1 月28 2 日業主大會通過最昂貴嘅方案三,亦通過聘請宏業,同年嘅4 月16 日簽約,大家 3 都記得,作價三億三千六百多萬,六年嘅時間,獨立顧問富邦初步評估一項一億多 4 少少嘅維修工程變成三億三嘅工程,每一步都有專業把關,而呢啲把關嘅角色亦都 5 喺我哋嘅書面陳詞裏面帶出咗四個我哋想強調嘅問題。 6 第一個問題,一個基本上平到冇辦法解釋嘅顧問標價。鴻毅自己估算嘅184 日 7 工作期,$308,000 嘅顧問費,做呢個工程,如果你除番開當然呢個係一個粗略嘅 8 計算,每座每日209 蚊,呢個價可能連提供最基本嘅顧問服務嘅成本都唔知夠唔 9 夠,點解有人肯做呢?跟住發生嘅事可能會畀我哋一啲嘅啟示,工程範圍不斷擴 10 大,有必要維修變成$3.36 億嘅大工程,而冇任何人當時真係獨立咁去評估過邊一 11 個項目真係要做,一定要做。我哋喺聽證會嘅時候都睇到喇,我諗今朝講嘅水缸就 12 係一個好好嘅例子。邊個定工程範圍,邊個為57 份標書評分?正正係嗰位日薪 13 1,674 鈫嘅顧問。 14 競委會喺2016 年嘅市場研究,一早就其實描述過呢一個劇本,而呢一個劇 15 本,同我哋呢一套戲都非常之相似,顧問以超低價搶到「睇門口」個位,然之後同 16 相熟嘅承建商合作,令對方抬高中標研究期裏面有關嘅價錢。超過65%嘅顧問標價 17 其實係低過最基本嘅成本,即係換句話講喺競委會研究裏面睇到,大部分嘅人係蝕 18 本做㗎喎,委員會唔需要去考慮宏福苑係唔係呢一個普遍嘅情況,個情況當然啱啱 19 講過,超低價中標,範圍膨脹高價嘅工程標,但係我哋睇到競委會所描述嘅情況同 20 今日宏福苑嘅情況非常之相似。 21 第二個問題,我哋今朝探討過一個掛名嘅RI,呢個我哋唔需要再重複。第三個 22 問題,一份嚴重誤導嘅標書分析報告,業主投票其實係靠鴻毅份標書分析報告,份 23 報告喺業主大會張貼咗,亦都有向住戶派發,呢份報告係點樣樣嘅呢?初稿2023 24 年9 月18 日,大家記住呢份初稿係吳躍簽嘅,而公司註冊處嘅紀錄顯示,佢係三 25 個月之後入先至入股做鴻毅嘅董事,份報告冇披露宏業同至少五個其他投標者有關 26 連,包括萬嘉建築、民星營造、偉利建築工程、新開明建築工程、信豪(集團)工 27 程,佢哋全部同邊個有關係?侯華健,業主以為有57 個獨立嘅競爭者入面揀選佢 28 哋嘅承建商,其實當時似乎係有兩個協調緊嘅群組,有兩個我哋俗稱“(English 29 Spoken)”。最嚴重嘅係大家會記得宏業嘅訴訟紀錄,大家記得佢係攞滿分嘅, 30 而事實喺2017 至2023 年佢有多項嘅職安健定罪,2023 年8 月仲啱啱畀屋宇署 31 紀律處分,罰款停接小型工程四個月,時任鴻毅嘅項目經理孔世傑喺畀警方嘅口供 32 提到,其實報告初本呢,本來宏業喺呢一個項目嘅評分係零分,之後畀人改咗滿 33 分。大家亦都可能會記得份報告裏面亦都有提到一封律師信,嗰封律師信寫得好奇 34 怪,淨係話七年內冇被法團或管理公司民事索償,我哋火災之後查一查宏業嘅司法 35 紀錄係有108 項結果,換句話講佢有多宗官司。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第三十天

33 本謄本由 Epiq 編製,於聽證會中使用的部分英文詞句由獨立委員會秘書處補充。 第四個問題,高度集中授權票,鴻毅中檢驗標,鴻毅中顧問標,宏業中工程 1 標,三次關鍵嘅表決都係靠時任主席鄧國權先生同佢嘅副手陳德誠先生手持大量嘅 2 授權票通過。授權票集中本身唔係一定有問題,但係宏福苑業主大會正正就係喺授 3 權票爭拗不斷嘅情況之下通過。跟住我想講業主大會同集中講授權票嘅問題,大家 4 會記得2024 年1 月28 日嘅業主特別大會,有三個方案,就通過咗方案三,當時 5 係有80.5%嘅人支持,委聘咗宏業喇,現場出席嘅業主大約有293 位,但係選票 6 有570 張,換句話講個差額就係授權票。 7 聽證會亦都提到,聽到唔少嘅市民投訴話授權票可能係假嘅,有榜上有名嘅業 8 主提過自己冇授權畀人哋,呢啲指控亦都係基於我哋今次職權範圍二個調查方法, 9 我哋唔使下最終嘅定論,但係亦都揭露咗有關機制可能有見到嘅問題,呢個機制本 10 身有咩問題呢?當時其實係冇任何法定嘅上限,一個人係搦幾多張授權票嚟,至於 11 核實方面亦都係有待改善嘅。置邦鄭芷盈女士好坦白,佢同我哋講嘅就係佢會對番 12 單位同業主個名,簽名就實在冇個式樣可以做,即係話其實都係對下張票上高嗰個 13 名同個單位業主係咪同一個--喺紀錄上高係咪同一個人。 14 至於授權票制度仲有咩其他嘅問題呢?第一,置邦嘅把關,授權票喺開會前14 15 日以匿名嘅方法投入收集箱,冇人見證簽署,冇人核實真偽。置邦事後其實只會將 16 一張回條放入有關單位嘅信箱,隨機打電話核實,除非份表格係填漏嘢,其實佢哋 17 係唔會打嘅平時。書面陳詞指出簡單得多嘅保障,其實一直存在,例如好似要求業 18 主親身交或者由代交嘅人出示身份證留紀錄,呢啲可能用嘅方法或者喺其他地方用 19 嘅方法一路都係冇做。 20 居民亦都口頭投訴過箍票嘅問題,鄭芷盈女士亦都承認有聽過居民講,但係冇 21 收過信而入投訴簿,亦都冇檢討個程序,三億幾嘅表決其實用嚟處理有關投票個方 22 法同授權票嘅方法,我哋覺得係草率。佢都承認雖然有人投訴,其實係冇加強過。 23 仲有喺1 月28 日嗰個特別業主大會正式點票結果,大家都會記得,其實大家係睇 24 唔到親身投票同授權票嗰個百分比同埋有幾多票嘅。我哋都要對鄭女士講句公道說 25 話,宏福苑係佢第一次處理咁大型嘅維修嘅招標,置邦亦都冇畀過一啲特別嘅指引 26 或者培訓佢。 27 最後,我哋撇開所有懷疑唔講,制度本身其實已經容許咗授權票集中嘅極少數 28 人士可以左右到大局,呢個我哋頭先講咗喇。雖然我哋亦都再強調,授權票呢個制 29 度本身係冇問題嘅,但係用喺呢啲比較多爭議嘅情況底下,有關嘅機制其實真係有 30 改善嘅空間。喺呢度,我哋要處理一個公眾高度關注嘅議題,區議員黃碧嬌女士嘅 31 角色。我哋明白火災之後社會上有好多關於黃女士嘅討論同埋揣測,委員會嘅做法 32 我哋都係儘量畀個回應,我哋亦都將有關嘅指控原原本本咁樣樣,全面咁樣樣邀請 33 佢回答,佢有兩次提交咗陳述,證據係咁嘅,佢承認喺2021 年11 月起應時候主 34 席嘅電話邀請擔任管委會顧問,冇報酬、冇正式程序、冇簽署利益申報,但係佢否 35 認參與過揀承建商評標,否認火災之前識得宏業或者侯華健,否認以任何禮物嚟換 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第三十天

34 本謄本由 Epiq 編製,於聽證會中使用的部分英文詞句由獨立委員會秘書處補充。 取選票。主席可能會記得呢個係當時其中一個嘅講法。 1 授權票方面,佢最初係承認兩次收過約20 張授權票,用嚟投票反對撤換舊管委會。其後負 2 責處理會議文件嘅合安公司嘅紀錄入面,我哋搵到一個Excel 檔案叫做「授權黃 3 碧嬌的單位」,裏面有記載咗有131 張授權票,大部分都唔係寫佢做授權人,我哋 4 亦都有向佢追問,隨後佢確認2021 年嗰次佢係協助收集咗131 張授權票,2024 5 年嗰次有148 張,佢嘅解釋話只係經管委會成員、義工同街坊收集,交畀管理處, 6 否認向陌生人索取。呢啲嘅授權書--授權票佔咗2021 年嗰次會議全部授權票大概 7 25%,2024 年嗰次嘅20%,佢本人喺兩次會議都有手持授權票,而佢嘅授權票係 8 第五多嘅。聽證會上有幾位證人曾經指出佢有帶外人出席重要會議,有人甚至講佢 9 恐嚇想發言嘅街坊,話佢派義工拍門收集授權票,一邊幫居民填政府嘅津貼表格, 10 一邊收授權票,呢啲嘅指控佢喺佢嘅書面證供裏面全面否認。 11 我哋仲有得到一段嘅錄音,9 月6 日撤換管委會表決之前,黃議員係向居民表 12 示撤換會拖慢工程,可能令佢哋損失樓宇更新大行動2.0 計劃嘅兩成資助,市建局 13 嘅王思敬先生喺聽證會上澄清咗,市建局其實係冇呢個政策嘅,工程完成資助就會 14 照發,延誤唔會扣減資助,只有延誤至極之嚴重嘅情況,先會取消整個計劃嘅資 15 助。黃女士回應話無意錯誤描述計劃,佢嘅提醒係出於對居民福祉嘅關心。 16 另外一位被議論嘅係區議員梅少峰先生,委員會同樣邀請佢回應,佢話自己只 17 係以區議員身分獲邀列席,冇參與任何實質討論,冇索取或行使過授權票。 18 正如我今朝所講,委員會收到嘅文件裏面,我哋冇證據顯示到佢哋真係實在有 19 參加過圍標或者反競爭行為,呢啲嘅題目,有關嘅涉事人其實大家都知道,亦都有 20 一啲唔同嘅調查做緊,但係我哋今日所關心嘅議題,而我哋收到嘅證據,暫時顯示 21 嘅只係咁多,日後有冇其他呢個單位去跟進,呢個就係執法部門嘅要處理嘅問題。 22 但係我哋收到嘅資料顯示咗,最起碼顯示咗啲咩嘢,其實喺香港大廈管理,尤 23 其是大型維修嘅情況底下,其實係好多時都係有非常之多嘅爭拗,主席你都會知道 24 其實業主立案法團打官司係我哋喺法院常見嘅事,一位社區人脈嘅深度加入喺呢個 25 背景上高,可能令到爭議係更加尖銳,民政總署畀嘅證供係咁,佢哋話區議員喺大 26 廈管理上係唔需要保持中立,佢哋可以有立場,可以表達包括支持邊個管委會。委 27 員會對呢啲嘅題目,我哋係無需要去定位,因為我哋針對嘅係職權範圍(二)所牽 28 涉嘅問題。區議員本身嘅角色喺我哋今次嘅調查職權範圍(二)裏面,我哋唔需要 29 去探討,但係呢個反映咗啲咩嘢?我相信呢個反映咗,其實投票程序嘅公正唔可以 30 靠拉票嘅人或者有同居民有關係嘅人自我克制去處理,我哋必須有一套措施去保障 31 居民嘅權益,而相關嘅投票程序其實係需要去探討。 32 跟住我會想同大家探討「招標妥」嘅局限,市建局喺自己嘅結案陳詞亦都確 33 認,呢個計劃貫徹始終嘅宗旨,過去同現在都係為咗減低業主同埋業主立案法團面 34 對圍標嘅風險,好多業主亦都係咁理解嘅,參加咗「招標妥」就有市建局把關,但 35 係市建局喺聽證會亦都講得好清楚,佢哋由頭到尾,佢哋話自己係一個「促進 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第三十天

35 本謄本由 Epiq 編製,於聽證會中使用的部分英文詞句由獨立委員會秘書處補充。 者」,王思敬先生講得好坦白,佢話「我哋嘅任務係減低被圍標風險,政府冇要求 1 我哋去打擊圍標同反圍標。」咁大家可能會問,咁呢個審查呢個標書?佢就話「我 2 哋都係信賴顧問公司做嘅,呢個係成個「招標妥」計劃嘅制度」,至於投標者之間 3 嘅關連,佢就咁講「市建局真係無能為力去check (English Spoken )同 4 (English Spoken )係有一個聯繫,(English Spoken )同(English 5 Spoken)。」 6 投標者嘅定罪紀錄,我哋知道市建局係唔查。投標者之間嘅關連,我哋知道市 7 建局都係唔查。預防合謀似乎係靠投標者嘅自我申報,呢個制度又靠--似乎係靠有 8 機會做錯事嘅人自己去提供資料。至於評分準則喺2023 年3 月,鴻毅將評分準則 9 嘅文件交咗畀市建局審閱,市建局回覆電郵,佢嘅證人喺聽證會上亦都確認,佢哋 10 只係就呢個措詞同埋時間表畀意見。準則本身合唔合理,一概唔會過問,就算有關 11 要求,我哋用咗一個比較誇張嘅例子,如果話要個承建商高大、靚仔,你會唔會 12 問?佢話佢哋都唔會過問。但係喺管委會嘅角度,佢哋認為市建局對鴻毅嘅評分準 13 則有某程度上嘅認可,通過咗呢套準則,市建局冇審閱過嘅嘢喺居民嘅眼中,喺業 14 主嘅眼中,好不幸地就變咗市建局審批過嘅嘢。 15 星期三嘅時候,市建局嘅代表大律師佢咁講嘅,「『招標妥』唔會參與同埋訂 16 立評標準則,獨立顧問亦都唔會干預業主就非強制工程嘅決定,但係市建局同獨立 17 顧問最低限度其實係可以就評分準則做出一啲嘅提議」,我哋唔覺得畀呢啲嘅意見 18 等同干預業主嘅決定。換句話講,用番我哋嘅例子,如果個評分準則裏面真係有啲 19 明顯嘅問題,點解唔提出? 20 「招標妥」入面仲有一個角色,聽個名好似好有保障嘅「獨立顧問」,市建局 21 話獨立顧問向業主提供獨立嘅第三方專業意見,特別喺造價方面。喺宏福苑呢個獨 22 立顧問嘅角色,大家知道係由富邦擔任,佢實際上做咗啲乜嘢?第一,造價把關, 23 佢喺2018 年,頭先講過,估價一億零二百多萬,2022 年11 月招標前評估變咗 24 兩億二千四百幾萬,翻咗一倍多。市建局嘅證人話呢個嘅增加係唔出奇嘅,因為鴻 25 毅起草標書嘅時候加大咗嗰啲度身訂做嘅項目,範圍大咗,估價自然高咗。 26 但大家諗深一層,我哋聽過競委會提供嘅資料,同埋廉政公署提供畀我哋嘅一 27 啲實質個案,顧問低價接咗個工程之後,將工程費無端端膨脹,正正係圍標嘅經典 28 先兆。而無論市政局定係獨立工程顧問,都唔會有人因為呢個評估,因為新增咗呢 29 啲項目嘅必要性去進行任何嘅探討。富邦係咁樣回覆委員會嘅,「工程範圍多餘嘅 30 項目向業主提供意見唔屬於我哋嘅合約職權範圍。」 31 跟住,覆核標書嘅分析,回標嘅分析,57 份標書,鴻毅份報告就係由富邦覆 32 核,份覆核講咗啲咩嘢?計錯數,打錯字嘅形式,冇實質內容畀意見。侯華健同五 33 間公司嘅關連當然冇發現。宏業有冇定罪,冇發現。市建局嘅證人喺聽證會上接受 34 呢份覆核,對業主防範圍標提供唔到任何嘅實質幫助。富邦自己承認冇做過任何獨 35 立市場調查或者背景審查,一切靠鴻毅,理由又係嗰句「合約範圍之外」。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第三十天

36 本謄本由 Epiq 編製,於聽證會中使用的部分英文詞句由獨立委員會秘書處補充。 另外第四點,我哋喺盤問嘅時候都提過,球證同埋球員嘅問題,我哋唔係因為 1 呢排世界盃先講呢個--用呢個比喻,我哋一路都係覺得呢個比喻係最恰當。當時全 2 港「招標妥」嘅獨立顧問來來去去都係得三間,冇任何規定阻止佢哋今日喺一個屋 3 苑度做球證,聽日喺隔籬屋苑嗰度落場做球員。市建局承認阻止唔到,仲有市場圍 4 標價呢個長期被抬高,變相獨立顧問估價都會跟住拉高咗呢個問題,似乎亦都冇辦 5 法。 6 如果咁總結,我相信大家都會明白,業主以為獨立把關嘅係富邦,佢就話把關 7 嘅工作其實唔喺我哋嘅合約裏面。「招標妥」另外一個局限就係市建局同獨立顧問 8 唔會提供顧問費用嘅獨立估算同埋參考收費,王思敬先生喺聽證會上高解釋,點解 9 市建局唔可以就顧問收費提供參考準則,佢當時畀咗兩個理由我哋嘅,第一,話會 10 犯競爭法,但係《競爭條例》第3 條寫明,條條例唔適用於法定機構。第二,話會 11 畀申訴專員批評。佢畀完證供之後,申訴專員喺今年嘅5 月4 日其實去信咗市建 12 局,正面反駁咗呢個講法,佢當--申訴專員當時話呢個講法冇事實嘅根據,純屬呢 13 個佢哋嘅猜測,亦都覺得呢個講法唔負責任。市建局喺5 月13 號回信,收回王先 14 生嘅言論,解釋佢作供期間其實係承受緊相當大嘅壓力。 15 我哋嘅理解係,競委會嘅代表律師並唔係否定公布收費指引或者參考價目嘅作 16 用,佢提出嘅關注正正係市場價格可能係被圍標者長期扭曲,價目唔應該代表唯一 17 嘅盡職審查工具,喺呢個問題,競委會可以聯同市建局同埋獨立顧問緊密合作,其 18 實係去檢視參考嘅機制,旨在希望幫到市民搵出一個合理嘅價錢。 19 總括而言,「招標妥」制度可能畀到業主一個假像,就係市建局同獨立顧問會 20 盡力咁樣去檢視招標過程嘅每一個部分,為佢哋把關。但係實際上,市建局同獨立 21 顧問冇做過真正嘅審查,反而有咗「招標妥」呢個標籤,幫助到圍標分子加強--加 22 咗一層認受性,呢個唔係原本嘅意思。 23 第9 章嘅結論,就係喺宏福苑招標過程似乎存在咗不規範嘅情況,有理由令人 24 懷疑圍標同埋反競爭行為,之前都講過委員會唔應該對宏福苑嘅招標指控作判斷, 25 呢個應該係留番司法程序,而我哋知道司法程序係進行中,但係我哋唔難見到似乎 26 業主嘅利益完全冇有效嘅保障情況之下,暴露咗圍標風險裏面嘅問題。大型屋苑維 27 修市場嘅圍標風險,我哋用宏福苑呢個例子亦都顯而易見。 28 跟住我哋想略略咁講一講一啲嘅建議,當然詳情亦都係我哋書面陳詞裏面第10 29 章提到,我哋希望儘量杜絕圍標風險,唔會喺下一個屋苑嘅大型維修重演。核心嘅 30 一步,我哋認為政府已經行咗,撥款1 億元建立市建局嘅專責子公司,目標喺 31 2026 年第四季推出加強版嘅「招標妥」,我哋嘅建議係呢一個機構必須放棄中立 32 促進者嘅定位,變成主動嘅把關者,幫業主草擬章程同埋標書要求,實質審視標 33 書,提供預先審查嘅承建商名單,對顧問嘅問標價嘅合理性作出意見,機構有權索 34 取文件,暫停程序,轉介競委會同埋執法機構,虛假申報者取消資格。 35 我哋亦都作出咗一系列配套建議嘅,我略略咁講一講幾點,係只係摘要。獨立 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第三十天

37 本謄本由 Epiq 編製,於聽證會中使用的部分英文詞句由獨立委員會秘書處補充。 顧問公司唔准落場投工程標,要擴大獨立顧問公司嘅法定職能,加入強制性誠信審 1 查公司登記,查關連性,要負責提供合理性嘅意見。第二,設立檢驗顧問、監工顧 2 問、承建商嘅預審名單,要榜上有名,有良好嘅紀錄,包括警方同廉政公署嘅審 3 查,財政狀況同過往嘅表現亦都需要考慮。超過一定規模嘅工程要--需要強制使用 4 預審嘅顧問名單、承建商。利益申報亦都需要升格,而家嘅利益申報係喺工程完結 5 之後,冇理由可以咁--冇理由係咁樣做,我哋認為應該喺工程開始之前做出所有嘅 6 申報。異常低標、雙重審查,如果價格低過中位數嘅五成,應該自動觸發專業小組 7 覆核,工程量度清單亦都需要標準化。我哋都提議不合謀投標嘅確認書應該升格做 8 一個法定嘅聲明。最後我哋都提議咗統一紀律資料庫,唔好有個情況就係話,唔知 9 去邊度查,或者查呢啲資料嘅成本係非常之高。 10 至於法律阻嚇方面,我哋認為應該由而家嘅情況,令圍標變成一宗蝕本嘅生 11 意。執法層面喺我哋都有三項嘅建議,釐清競爭審裁程序嘅舉證標準,引入法定推 12 定,例如證明到投標者之間互相交換過報價資料,就假設有合謀,將舉證責任反轉 13 等執法唔再舉報,令到執法有現時有嘅困難。當然,亦都有提過係將圍標刑事化。 14 而家嘅框架其實已經有一定嘅「牙力」,但刑事化同除牌先至係真正嘅分水 15 嶺,目標令到係圍標變成隨時入獄、隨時除牌嘅蝕本生意,並唔係一啲做生意嘅成 16 本。當然,有關呢啲題目,最應該去研究嘅,我哋同意係競委會,我哋知道競委會 17 而家亦都有著手研究呢啲問題。 18 最後投票制度,我哋希望每一張嘅授權票都真係業主嘅一票,考慮嘅題目包括 19 親身投下授權--投票,我哋建議提高現時嘅規定,最高提高到10%或者150 名親 20 身投票嘅投票者。表決之前最少有7 日,亦都需要開簡介會,等佢哋知道投票嘅內 21 容。投票權嘅法定上限需要考慮,而每張授權票亦都可以考慮附上指示,同虛假授 22 權嘅刑責警告。另外,授權票嘅登記亦都可以考慮喺投票前48 個小時喺大廈張貼 23 有關嘅通告,畀大家知道有幾多張授權票,業主一睇就知道自己張票會唔會喺其他 24 人嘅手上。 25 其他嘅建議,亦都係喺我哋嘅第10 章裏面詳細咁樣樣去列咗出嚟,主席,我 26 唔打算重複。 27 主席、兩位委員,嚟到最後呢個階段,我想同大家咁樣去總結我哋今次面對嘅 28 情況。喺今次嘅聽證會裏面,我哋經常提到格蘭菲爾大火見到嘅問題,汲取到嘅教 29 訓。喺英國嗰一個調查裏面,大家螢光幕見到係格蘭菲爾大火調查裏面代表委員會 30 大律師製作咗張圖表,總結各方面自己認為究竟責任誰屬嘅說法。呢個大家喺公開 31 嘅資料裏面會搵到嘅。 32 喺我哋香港呢個情況,其實我哋亦都有一個差唔多嘅問題,如果我哋用番我哋 33 聽證會睇到嘅資料,大家會見到另外一張圖,我哋見到今次喺聽證會唔同嘅單位喺 34 大火前、大火後都對其他嘅個體或者人士作出一啲嘅批評,我哋唔係話呢啲批評唔 35 成立,我哋亦都唔係話批評冇道理,當中一啲嘅指控非常之有道理,但係呢張圖顯 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第三十天

38 本謄本由 Epiq 編製,於聽證會中使用的部分英文詞句由獨立委員會秘書處補充。 示咗啲咩嘢呢?呢張圖顯示咗宏福苑大維修過程中真係有好多機構、不同嘅單位都 1 有自己嘅角色,政府部門、承建商、顧問、物業管理公司,任何一個當時做嘅嘢有 2 唔同,如果當時佢哋係做多一啲,今次嘅傷亡係有機會減少。今次嘅災難,大家都 3 會知道冇一個簡單嘅理由,冇一個單位係要負上全部嘅責任,好明顯係涉及好多個 4 唔同嘅個體同埋環環緊扣嘅問題。 5 主席,我哋嘅結案陳詞裏面對唔少嘅人士同單位作出咗一啲嚴厲嘅批評,呢啲 6 批評冇一項係輕率咁樣去作出,每一位被批評嘅人士都獲得充分機會解釋佢自己嘅 7 立場,有啲人雖然選擇唔回應,但係每一項批評都係基於扎扎實實嘅證據,我哋認 8 為佢哋係冇得抵賴。 9 我哋喺開案陳詞度講過,今日結案陳詞再講一次,呢場悲劇嘅教訓會係艱難同 10 沉重,但係我哋只有正視呢啲嘅教訓,我哋先可以令香港變成一個更加安全嘅地 11 方。對罹難者最好嘅悼念就係將宏福苑嘅教訓一項一項不折不扣咁儘快落實,香港 12 唔可以再有另一個社區經歷同樣嘅悲劇。 13 對於痛失至親嘅家庭、對倖存者,委員會嘅報告將會係呢場悲劇點樣發生最權 14 威嘅紀錄。對香港呢個係一個改革嘅基石,政府代表大律師琴日對委員會承諾事實 15 嘅裁斷同建議,佢哋會作出實質嘅回應同埋跟進,我哋對此表示歡迎,我相信全香 16 港嘅市民都會共同監察呢個承諾嘅兌現。我哋希望委員會嘅報告可以為問責、改革 17 同埋法律後果提供一個堅實嘅基礎。 18 最後,我哋向呢場大火入面罹難嘅168 位人士,包括殉職嘅消防員何偉豪再一 19 次致以最深切嘅哀悼。一如以往,歷次重大災難之後,法官主持嘅調查,罹難者嘅 20 完整名單將會記載入委員會嘅正式紀錄,永誌不忘。 21 主席、各位委員,以上係委員會代表大律師嘅結案陳詞。 22

23 15 時00 分杜淦堃資深大律師代表獨立委員會結案陳詞完畢 24

25 陸啟康法官:或者押後五分鐘先,好嘛?唔該。 26

27 15 時00 分聽證會押後 28 15 時05 分聽證會恢復 29

30 陸啟康法官:好多謝委員會律師團隊非常之詳盡嘅陳詞。咁喺結束之前,我都想講幾句說話 31 嘅。今日係我哋獨立委員會聽證會最後一日,咁過去三日我哋聽取咗委員會大律師 32 同埋各個涉事方大律師嘅陳詞,總結咗聽證會我哋收到嘅證據同埋佢哋嘅論點。 33 大埔宏福苑火災係香港近年一個非常之嚴重嘅事故,不僅令到眾多家庭留下難 34 以磨滅嘅創傷,亦都令全港市民深感痛心。我代表委員會再次向所有死傷者家屬同 35 埋因為火災而受到影響嘅人士致以最深切、最誠摯嘅慰問。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第三十天

39 本謄本由 Epiq 編製,於聽證會中使用的部分英文詞句由獨立委員會秘書處補充。 成立委員會嘅目的係查明今次事件原因,經過相關制度同埋監管方面嘅問題, 1 並向行政長官提出建議避免同類型悲劇再次發生,而追究個人法律責任同政府內部 2 問責唔係獨立委員會嘅工作範圍。喺調查嘅過程之中,我哋一直按住公平、公開同 3 埋不偏不倚嘅原則工作,並細心審視同埋考慮各方提交嘅每一項資料,務求向社會 4 同埋宏福苑嘅居民交出--交代真相,我亦都相信如果冇一個完整同埋有事實支持嘅 5 交代,所有嘅慰問都係空談。 6 獨立委員會喺2025 年12 月19 日正式展開工作,喺3 月19 日開始聽證 7 會,為籌備聽證會,獨立委員會喺律師團隊嘅協助之下,分析咗大量由宏福苑居 8 民、政府同埋其他相關團體提交嘅大量文件、影片、通訊紀錄、圖片等資料,同時 9 亦都聯絡各個涉事方同埋證人,以安排作證。至今,我哋係舉行咗一共30 場嘅聽 10 證會,聽取咗80 位證人口述證供。 11 獨立委員會感謝各個持份者喺聽證會嘅不同階段作出嘅配合,包括係涉事方、 12 律師團隊、專家、市民、團體,我哋秘書處嘅工作人員,以及各個為場地提供各種 13 支援嘅政府部門等,令到聽證會係可以如期順利完成。我哋亦都感謝城市大學嘅建 14 築學及土地工程學系同埋媒體與傳播系,喺極短時間之內協助委員會律師團隊製作 15 喺開場陳詞所用嘅電腦3D 模型同埋圖表。今次聽證會見證咗香港市民喺不同崗位 16 均希望能夠協助我哋找出真相,唔再重蹈覆轍。 17 喺獨立委員會工作開展以嚟,我哋尤其係感謝宏福苑居民提交咗大量重要嘅資 18 料,對我哋還原真相發揮咗關鍵嘅作用。有啲居民更願意親身出席聽證會提供口述 19 證供,帶住沉重嘅心情向我哋講番佢哋喺大火之中嘅經歷,同埋對大維修工程嘅觀 20 察。我哋深深明白每一份嘅證供都承載著再一次面對失去至親同埋家園嘅傷痛,因 21 此,獨立委員會定必謹記居民對我哋嘅信任同埋耐性,繼續盡力完成我哋嘅工作。 22 過去三日,我哋聽取咗獨立委員會同埋各個涉事代表大律師嘅陳詞,就佢哋針 23 對大火同埋相關事宜,或者係不同持份者喺當中嘅角色作出總結,個別涉事方亦都 24 提出改善建議,供獨立委員會考慮。 25 另外,我亦都喺5 月8 日聽證會作出指示,涉事方可以喺限期之前向獨立委員 26 會以書面形式提交有關職權範圍(一)同埋(二)嘅事宜嘅改善建議。我哋收到九 27 位宏福苑嘅居民、政府以及競委會嘅建議,並會喺今日稍後將相關文件上載至獨立 28 委員會嘅網站。 29 聽證會結束之後,獨立委員會亦都要處理書面嘅證供同埋其他陸續收到嘅大量 30 資料,喺唔影響其他程序,即係例如刑事調查或者考慮個人私隱嘅前提之下,我哋 31 會陸續將相關證人嘅供詞上載至到獨立委員會嘅網站。我哋嘅原則係一定以公開為 32 最,任何其他嘅考慮都會係可能因為一啲法律嘅問題,唔想影響其他法律程序,我 33 哋先至會有其他嘅決定。而呢個情況係需要一個過程,亦都係要各方嘅考慮,所以 34 我哋係會喺稍後將我哋認為可以公開,我哋都會儘量公開嘅一啲證人工資上載到我 35 哋獨立委員會嘅網站。 36

就大埔宏福苑火災的聽證會 第三十天

40 本謄本由 Epiq 編製,於聽證會中使用的部分英文詞句由獨立委員會秘書處補充。 接下嚟,撰寫報告係整個調查過程之中極為關鍵嘅一環,我哋需要收--已收到 1 海量資料為基礎,有系統咁整合一個完整嘅事實框架,作出研判同埋結論,同埋提 2 出獨立委員會嘅改善建議。正如我喺早前提到有關嘅建議方面,我哋需要顧及不同 3 嘅考量,包括資源配套、具體操作嘅細節、市民嘅承受能力、各個持份方嘅角色同 4 埋市場嘅情況等,因此,我哋預期獨立委員會最終就職權範圍下嘅事宜作出嘅改善 5 建議,總體嚟講係應該會係較方向性嘅。獨立委員會會建基於穩固嘅證據同埋分 6 析,研判事件中工程顧問、工程承辦方、消防裝置承辦商、物業管理人、政府部門 7 以及其他相關持份者嘅角色同埋責任,並作出結論。 8 正如一啲死者家屬喺聽證會所講,我哋為咗今次嘅慘劇付出嘅代價係非常之 9 大,我哋希望通過今次嘅公開調查同埋聽證總結經驗,防止類似嘅悲劇再次發生, 10 呢個亦都係我哋對死難者作出嘅一個交代。 11 我哋再喺度今日多謝各位參與我哋嘅聽證會,我哋嘅聽證會正式完畢,大家保 12 重。 13

14 15 時14 分聽證會完畢 15

FD06263 | 2025_港澳台_香港宏福苑大火_独立委员会聆讯笔录_20260319.pdf

分类:06_境外及港澳台调查报告 | 年份:2025 | 地域:香港 | 严重程度: | 场所: | 起火原因: | 来源格式:pdf

Evidential Hearing in relation to fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po

A Court Reporting Transcript by Epiq 1

就大埔宏福苑火災成立的獨立委員會

聽證會

高等法院原訟法庭陸啟康法官 陳健波議員 歐陽伯權博士

日期

第一天 2026 年3 月19 日

杜淦堃資深大律師, 李澍桓大律師, 俞匡庭大律師, 馮天榮大律師, 張天風大 律師, 李俊軒大律師, 陳佩恩律師, 許振軒律師 (受羅文錦律師樓指示代表 獨立委員會)

許偉強資深大律師代表置邦興業有限公司

孫靖乾資深大律師, 卓元暢大律師及劉逸冲大律師代表政府

李律仁資深大律師及柯愷欣大律師代表宏福苑業主立案法團第十二屆管理 委員會

Evidential Hearing in relation to fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po

A Court Reporting Transcript by Epiq 2

呂世杰資深大律師及阮文躍大律師代表市區重建局

何卓衡大律師代表置邦興業有限公司

劉思遠先生、張錦慧女士代表律政司

李曉亮先生代表競爭事務委員會

林子衡律師(受胡關李羅律師行指示) 代表合安管理有限公司

梁采寧律師及黎麗珊律師(受文禮律師行指示)代表宏泰消防工程有限公司

關有禮大律師代表梁秉基先生

鐘浩怡律師及何光偉律師(受韓潤燊律師樓指示) 代表黃俠然先生

譚俊傑大律師及李峰琦大律師代表宏福苑居民

Evidential Hearing in relation to fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po

A Court Reporting Transcript by Epiq 3

1 以下內容乃聆訊數碼錄音謄本 2

3 陸啟康法官:今日係正式開始大埔宏福苑大火獨立委員會嘅聽證會。今日係3 月19 日,剛剛3 4 個月之前我哋嘅獨立委員會係正式開始工作,並且召開咗第一次嘅會議。喺呢三個月嘅 5 時間,委員會同埋佢哋的律師嘅團隊做咗大量嘅工作,準備今日嘅聽證會。我哋需要向 6 各個相關嘅政府部門、非政府嘅團體,同埋個人索取資料。當然,我哋都要畀佢哋雖然 7 係好短嘅時間,但係亦都係一個合理嘅時間,等佢哋可以向委員會提交資料。各方提交 8 咗證人供詞、文件同埋資料之後,委員會同埋佢哋嘅律師團隊就要審視呢啲資料是否足 9 夠,是否需要澄清?進而喺決定需唔需要呢啲部門、團體或者人士咧係提交進一步嘅資 10 料。喺呢三個月嘅時間,我哋都需要畀政府嘅部門完成佢哋有關嘅調查工作,我哋亦都 11 要安排委員會嘅獨立專家審視同埋調查起火同埋火勢蔓延嘅原因,其他嘅工作亦都包 12 括,因為呢個係一個公眾諮詢,我哋都要安排公眾人士,包括宏福苑嘅災民同埋其他公 13 眾人士,如果佢哋就今次嘅調查想發表、提供資料或者意見,我哋都要作出相應嘅安 14 排。我哋都要處理為數不少,各方面成為呢個聽證會涉事方嘅申請,我哋亦都要對今日 15 呢一個聽證會嘅各項細節作出安排。我哋可以喺度大膽咁講,鑑於今次嘅調查嘅範圍之 16 廣,事情嘅複雜性,相比以往香港同埋海外嘅同類調查,要喺3 個月之內、3 個月之內 17 可以開到呢個聽證會確實係唔容易。大家都知道委員會係需要喺9 個月之內向行政長官 18 提交報告,9 個月對於呢個大型嘅調查嚟講係非常進取嘅目標。英國格蘭威爾大廈嘅火 19 災就用咗7 年嘅時間提交最終嘅報告。但大家都要明白,我哋今次嘅調查喺時間上有一 20 定的急切性。首先,我哋係要儘早向死者嘅家人同埋受災嘅人士交代,等佢哋早日可以 21 得知家人離開同埋痛失家園嘅原因。第二,我哋香港嘅好多嘅樓宇都係樓齡唔細嘅,呢 22 啲樓宇都係急於做一些嘅樓宇維修嘅工程,因為宏福苑嘅大火,其實好多呢啲工程都而 23 家係擱置,係唔知道何去何從,咁所以佢哋都要等待呢個調查嘅結果,咁所以咧呢個調 24 查係有一定嘅急切性。第三,我哋係要儘早向政府提交報告,希望政府係可以儘快進行 25 跟進嘅工作,包括係進行所需要嘅改革同埋處理一啲人事嘅事宜。所以我哋委員會相信 26 儘早提交報告係合乎公眾嘅利益。但即使時間係緊密都好,調查必須係全面,故此,委 27 員會係要求相關人士必須喺係短時間之內完成佢哋嘅工作,包括我哋嘅律師團隊、受查 28 嘅各方、各個涉事方,災民同埋公眾提交資料同埋意見嘅人士,我哋對所有人都係提出 29 同一個要求,包括我哋自己。係要喺儘快嘅時間完成我哋嘅工作,委員會喺現階段感謝 30 各方面嘅理解同埋配合,令到我哋嘅聽證會喺咁短嘅時間之內召開。可是因為呢嗰時間 31 係比較禁逼,所以有啲調查同埋提交文件嘅工作未必喺現階段完成嘅。咁以往嘅調查都 32 係會出現同樣嘅情況,咁所以喺聽證會入面嘅一啲安排,包括作供嘅人數,或者佢哋確 33

Evidential Hearing in relation to fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po

A Court Reporting Transcript by Epiq 4

實喺邊一日作供咧,我哋而家現階段都未必確實。但喺呢嗰嘅聽證會進行期間,呢啲嘢 1 就會慢慢落實,我哋一落實之後亦都會盡早向公眾公佈嘅。因為今次調查之廣,同埋嗰 2 個複雜性咧,我哋今次會有好多證人喺會作供嘅,其中的人數我哋未可以落實。雖然我 3 哋嘅調查係要全面,但係我哋嘅律師團隊都發現咧,其實有一啲證供係重複嘅,咁所以 4 咧我哋都會係呢啲證供入邊做一啲整合,希望聽證會係可以更加有效咁進行。我哋今日 5 開始嘅聽證會其實係會包括我哋所調查嘅所有範疇,即係包括我喺指示會議所講嘅兩大 6 範疇:即係第一個範疇就係起火嘅原因、火勢蔓延嘅原因同埋相關嘅責任問題。而第二 7 個調查嘅範疇就係就香港所有嘅大型維修工程有冇涉及圍標同埋不當嘅行為?我哋早前 8 已經完成咗第一個範疇嘅公眾諮詢,而第二個範疇嘅公眾諮詢會係下個星期開始,咁秘 9 書、委員會嘅秘書處亦會適時作出公佈。咁關於第二個範疇嘅聽政方式咧,其實有關執 10 法部門已經向委員會提交咗報告,就香港嘅圍標同埋有冇不當行為咧作出一哋嘅報告。 11 咁除非係呢啲報告嘅內容係涉及一啲嘅敏感資料,即係包括可能係影響刑事檢控或者係 12 調查工作,呢啲報告嘅結論都係會公開嘅。委員會係會聽取咗各方嘅陳詞之後,有咗呢 13 啲初步嘅結論,我哋再會決定第二階段或者第二範疇嘅聽證方式係會點樣進行。等一陣 14 律師團隊、各個涉事方嘅律師團隊會作出開場、開案嘅陳詞,咁首先就係委員會嘅律師 15 團隊。咁我哋得知佢哋的陳詞會比較詳細,佢哋希望儘早畀公眾知道我哋委員會而家現 16 階段掌握到嘅證據,我哋亦都同意呢一個做法,我哋都希望如果喺公眾知道有關嘅證據 17 之後,我哋希望日後聆訊可以更加有效咁樣進行。調查嘅過程咧,其實係我哋要將事實 18 還原,喺還原嘅過程之中咧,可能有啲證據係會對公眾特別係死者嘅家人造成不安。但 19 係我哋覺得有呢啲證據嘅披露咧係有需要的,因為可以畀公眾瞭解到當時大廈發生嘅情 20 況同埋個火蔓延嘅情況。但係即使係咁,我哋都、委員會都作出咗決定,我們指示咗我 21 哋嘅律師團隊咧對呢啲證供咧係作出一啲嘅處理,包括係一啲嘅錄影嘅、錄影,我哋可 22 能會用相片嘅方式去陳述出嚟,而係呢啲嘅相片,或者呢啲嘅影像入邊咧,所有在場人 23 士咧我哋都會係掩蓋嘅。但即使呢啲證供有咁嘅處理都好咧,我哋相信係今次嘅聆訊, 24 或者我哋會講出嚟嘅事實咧係咪一定會對某啲公眾或者係受災人士會作出有啲困擾,我 25 哋希望將呢啲困擾減到最低。但係呢啲可能、呢啲咁嘅造成嘅效果,我哋亦都係好難避 26 免,亦都係希望各位理解同埋明白。如果有需要嘅時候,請尋求呢嘅專業嘅協助。委員 27 會深知道死難者嘅家屬、受災人士同埋公眾對我哋嘅工作有非常之大嘅期望,希望委員 28 會係以公開公平,同埋不偏不倚嘅情況去揾出事實嘅真相。對於今次咁嚴重嘅火災,奪 29 取咗咁多條嘅性命,我哋覺得呢啲期望係理所當然嘅。係委員會去安排今次聽證會的過 30 程中,我哋做咗不少非常困難嘅決定,調查要全面,亦都係要…嘅同時,我哋都係希望 31 聆訊係有效咁去進行,我哋委員會一定以頭先所講嘅原則,公開公平、不偏不倚,盡我 32 哋所有嘅能力去完成我哋嘅調查工作。咁呢個就係我今日喺呢個聆訊開始之前作出嘅説 33 話,咁而家現階段我會交畀我哋嘅各個涉事方作出呢個嘅開案陳詞,首先我想請我哋委 34

Evidential Hearing in relation to fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po

A Court Reporting Transcript by Epiq 5

員會嘅律師,我哋首席嘅律師杜淦堃資深大律師係就委員會嘅律師嘅團隊係作出開案陳 1 詞,唔該。 2 杜淦堃資深大律師:多謝主席,兩位委員。2025 年11 月26 日,宏福苑嘅大火係香港歷史以來最 3 嚴重嘅災難之一,亦都係自1948 年以嚟本港傷亡最慘烈嘅火災,火災燃燒43 個小時, 4 席捲七座住宅,168 人不幸罹難,逾4000 名居民流離失所。火災發生幾個月以來,香港 5 社會上下甚至世界各地無不為罹難者哀悼祭奠。呢場大火喺我哋香港人嘅集體回憶裏面 6 亦都留下咗難以磨滅嘅傷痕。今次嘅災難不禁叫人發問,其實規模好似咁龐大嘅火災點 7 解可以係一個先進嘅城市,一個以世界級基建見稱嘅香港發生?點解消防裝備未能發揮 8 作用?可燃物嘅使用又係由邊個去監督同埋予以批准?各項缺失同埋失誤點解未被承建 9 商同埋政府部門所察覺?公眾尤其是喺火災嘅倖存者理所當然想得到答案。期盼獨立委 10 員會嘅工作可以釐清事實,為事件帶來清晰嘅交代同埋應有嘅問責。我哋唔可以讓呢啲 11 悲劇再次發生,今次嘅火災提醒咗我哋,香港建築物存在各種各樣的火災風險,不容忽 12 視。世界上亦都好少有地方嘅高樓大廈好似香港一樣咁密集,亦都只係喺香港我哋會見 13 到數以百萬計長期居於被綠色棚網包圍嘅大廈之中,我哋嘅市民就喺呢啲大廈裏面繼續 14 生活,動以數月,甚至經年。宏福苑嘅大火正係一記沉重同埋清晰嘅警號,促使我哋正 15 視係香港迫切嘅火災風險,同埋大型樓宇維修工程裏邊更深層次嘅問題,社會必須從中 16 吸取沉重嘅教訓。喺呢個過程裏面,或許會好艱難同埋沉重,但係正是過去嘅失誤先至 17 可以令香港成為一個更加安全嘅城市。喺呢個背景之下,行政長官喺2025 年12 月12 18 日宣佈成立獨立委員會,就大埔宏福苑火災展開調查。委員會嘅職權範圍喺今年2 月5 19 日嘅指示聆訊上高已經宣讀咗出來同埋解釋咗了,我喺呢度唔再重複。簡單嚟講,職權 20 範圍嘅手段旨在查明喺去年11 月26 日宏福苑大火發生嘅經過、慘劇成因以及導致重大 21 傷亡嘅各項因素。第二段就係要求委員會審視樓宇維修同埋翻新行業裏邊係咪存在更廣 22 泛嘅制度性問題。第三同埋第四段關乎現行規管制度同埋懲罰係咪足夠?並要求就任何 23 嘅事情提出改革建議。獨立委員會嘅工作一直係同刑事調查同步進行,公眾查詢並唔係 24 裁定任何民事或者刑事責任嘅地方,民事責任應該由民事法院去裁定,而刑事嘅調查同 25 埋檢控則由執法機關。執法機關若提出檢控,被告人嘅罪責嘅裁決當然係會由我哋嘅刑 26 事法庭去處理。呢一點喺職權範圍中亦都強調咗,職權範圍中清楚訂明:“凡涉及相關 27 人士嘅法律責任均不屬獨立委員會嘅職權範圍。”委員會亦都明白,我哋都唔可以干預 28 日後嘅檢控工作或者其他法律程序,委員會亦都唔希望見到我哋嘅調查會影響之後嘅民 29 事責任或者刑事、要負刑事責任者,讓佢哋有機會逍遙法外。作為獨立委員會嘅法律代 30 表,我哋嘅職責在於協助委員會理解證據、質詢證人同埋專家、同埋就職權範圍各項事 31 情陳詞。我想而家停一停,似乎技術上高我哋有啲問題要處理。我繼續,獨立委員會唔 32 止喺行政事務同埋證據蒐集上高獲得我哋嘅秘書處同埋我哋嘅事務律師團隊全力支持, 33 係佢哋協助下,委員會其實已經向多方發出信件,索取有關嘅資料同埋文件。大家可以 34

Evidential Hearing in relation to fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po

A Court Reporting Transcript by Epiq 6

想象到其實我哋收集到嘅文件係海量嘅,委員會已經從政府部門、執法機關、承建商同 1 埋公眾人士收集咗超過100 萬份嘅檔案,包括相片啦、影片啦、文件啦,所收集嘅資料 2 總量係超越咗1 個(English Spoken),1 個TB,資料涵蓋火災當日嘅閉路電視片段以 3 及居民就翻新工程向物業管理處、承建商同埋政府部門所提出的投訴。其中都包括政府 4 就樓宇監督工程工作同埋居民嘅投訴嘅回應啦,同埋一啲從未披露嘅內部記錄,亦都包 5 括執法機構喺火災現場、物業管理公司嘅地方啦收集到嘅文件啦,甚至承建商之間嘅通 6 信,例如一啲嘅WhatsApp 嘅通信記錄,直接承認咗當日喺現場使用嘅係非防火棚網。 7 我哋資料亦都包括咗數百名居民、保安員、建築工人、警務人員同埋消防員嘅證供。總 8 而言之,喺而家有嘅材料其實可以講已經係相當充分,足以查明至少與火災有關嘅相關 9 事實,委員會將會全面審視所有證據,並考慮大家嘅陳詞先至作出有關嘅結論。即使如 10 此,我哋可以明確指出,根據現有嘅材料顯示,火災當日幾乎全部保障生命嘅消防措施 11 全部都因為人為因素徹底失效。就以下幾個方面出現咗嚴重嘅問題,其中一部分當然已 12 經有傳媒係較早披露或者探討過,我舉幾個例子:第一,火警警報系統,喺8 座樓宇之 13 中7 座的火警警報系統,即係火警鐘被關閉,呢個失誤延誤咗向居民發出火警警示,亦 14 都大幅縮短了可以讓居民疏散嘅時間。第二,樓梯同埋走廊方面,樓梯同埋走廊嘅窗户 15 當時係被拆除,喺用來開設通道方便工人出入外牆嘅棚架,呢啲佢哋俗稱係“生口”, 16 現在有證據顯示呢啲所謂嘅“生口”使得濃煙及火勢得以進入到居民去依賴逃生嘅通 17 道,並且裏面迅速蔓延令到大量嘅居民被困。第三,消防栓同埋喉轆系統、消防栓同埋 18 喉轆系統係案發時被關閉。儘管有規定有關係統停用一般唔可以超過14 日,但係承建商 19 一再向消防署申請停用限期,令到有關的消防栓同埋喉轆系統關閉數月。第四,棚架同 20 埋窗户上高嘅可燃物,證據顯示棚架同埋窗户上高擺放咗大量嘅可燃物。尤其係兩次十 21 號風球信號過後,有部分嘅阻燃棚網被更換為一哋非阻燃嘅棚網,而法律規定嘅阻燃棚 22 網係喺多處都係並冇使用。此外,大家都知道居民嘅窗户亦都係被可燃嘅發泡膠遮蓋, 23 可能促使火勢蔓延去單位裏邊。最後,工地吸煙,有證據顯示棚架上同埋懷疑係火源嘅 24 光井平台留有大量嘅煙頭,居民多次就工地吸煙向有關方面嘅投訴亦都未得到正視。喺 25 呢一個階段,我哋都想強調其實有關火災嘅成因,佢嘅蔓延同埋令到有咁巨大嘅傷亡, 26 就現證據嚟睇係多項因素重疊嘅後果,至於每一個因素喺整件事嘅角色,之後嘅專家證 27 供會逐一探討。主席、兩位委員,接下嚟我將先會向大家解釋宏福苑一啲基本嘅資料, 28 可能某方面大家已經知道或者聽過,但係我哋都想簡略啲解釋有關嘅情況。宏福苑係由 29 房委會1983 年興建嘅居屋,佢哋座落於大埔河口的填海地段,東面高架路同埋元洲仔 30 公園與吐露港相隔,北面同西面有廣福邨同埋大埔會浸信公立學校,南面就連接了吐露 31 港。宏福苑嘅發展項目由8 座樓宇組成,逆時針方向環繞一週,向迴旋處圍繞一週分別 32 為A 座嘅宏仁閣、B 座嘅宏道閣、C 座宏新閣、D 座宏建閣、E 座宏泰閣、F 座宏昌閣、G 33 座宏盛閣,同埋F 座宏志閣,各座樓宇樓高樓高31 層,每層設8 個單位,合共1984 個 34

Evidential Hearing in relation to fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po

A Court Reporting Transcript by Epiq 7

單位。大家可以睇到各座樓宇嘅平面佈局其實係大致相同,我哋先由火災嘅起源宏昌閣 1 作例,接住落嚟我哋會睇到一啲截圖,係來自城市大學為委員會製作宏昌閣嘅3D 模型。 2 委員會可能會注意到呢個模型其實係用建設圖則做出嚟嘅,所以未必每一個細節都係最 3 精準。但我哋考慮過同埋參照過現場嘅情況係冇明顯嘅分別。大家見到8 個單位沿用U 4 型走廊成隊咁排列嘅,U 形走廊嘅中間、中央係設有三部升降機,服務單數同埋雙數樓 5 層。大家見到走廊嘅後面就有兩條俗稱“鉸剪樓梯”,兩條樓梯其實都可以由31 樓通去 6 地面,但係其中只有一條可以通往天台。大堂就位於樓宇地面層嘅中央,周圍就設有單 7 車停泊位同埋機房,有一條樓梯係直通大堂,另一條樓梯就會向樓宇嘅後方。委員會可 8 以留意到大廈右側嘅泵房以及正面對出嘅消防泵房。值得留意嘅係每座大廈嘅四周都有 9 四個光井,我哋俗稱“天井”,係位於各單位之間,每個光井嘅底部為一樓嘅平台,呢 10 個平台就用一對金屬嘅閘門去圍封嘅,有個閘喺個平台嘅口嗰度。我哋稍候會説明,火 11 災其實懷疑係由宏昌閣104 同埋105 號單位外嘅光井底部平台所起火,大家見到一個紅 12 色箭嘴。我哋會、而家播放一段我哋用3D 模型製作嘅影片,可能令大家更直接睇到個光 13 井嘅位置。(播放影片)如果用火災嘅角度去睇,光井兩邊就係104 同埋105 單位。根 14 據2021 年人口普查數據,宏福苑住户逾4,600 人,其中三分一以上,即係大概1,700 15 名住户係年約65 歲嘅長者,約十分之一大概420 名年齡係喺14 歲以下。接住落嚟,我 16 會簡述其實宏福苑維修工程嘅始末,係2016 年嘅6 月,宏福苑業主立案法團或者我哋 17 俗稱、或者簡稱IO 啦,就接獲強制驗樓計劃,即係亦都英文嘅簡稱係MBIS 嘅法定通 18 知,要求業主立案法團聘請註冊嘅檢驗人員,檢驗喺8 座樓宇裏面嘅建築結構,並聘請 19 註冊嘅承建商進行審查後所需嘅維修工程。喺2019 年嘅1 月25 日,業主立案法團就舉 20 行咗業主大會,並且投票決定委任鴻毅建築師有限公司作為註冊嘅檢驗人員,委任係喺 21 招標程序後作出嘅。嗰次嘅招標收到24 份標書,投標價為港幣88,000 元到1080,000 22 不等。鴻毅嘅投標價係222,000 元,排名第六低,最終獲67.5%嘅有效票通過。樓宇嘅 23 檢驗就喺2019 年3 月至8 月期間進行,鴻毅喺2019 年嘅11 月提交咗報告,建議對宏 24 福苑進行多項嘅維修工程。喺2021 年12 月11 日業主立案法團特別大會上高,業主立 25 案法團投票決定委任鴻毅作為之後的顧問,負責處理聘用承建商嘅過程同埋管理維修工 26 程。同樣地,委任喺招標程序後作出,有35 名承建商提、提交標書,標價係由港幣 27 45,000 元到2280,000 不等。鴻毅嘅投標價係308,000,排第11 低,最終亦都係獲得 28 56.69%嘅選票通過。喺2022 年至2023 年嘅5 月期間,業主立案法團喺鴻毅嘅協助下制 29 定咗宏福苑維修工程嘅招標文件,喺2023 年嘅7 月,業主立案法團收到57 份嘅標書, 30 投標價就由港幣22,221,078 元到港幣229,793,082 不等。業主立案法團就喺2024 年 31 嘅1 月28 號嘅會員大會上高決定委任宏業工程有限公司,最終以54.79%嘅選票通過。 32 招標嘅程序同委任宏業一事,大家都知道喺居民之間引起咗極大嘅爭議,我哋稍候會喺 33 開案陳詞職權範圍嘅第2 段嗰個範圍再探討呢個題目,但可能喺後日我哋先有時間去到 34

Evidential Hearing in relation to fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po

A Court Reporting Transcript by Epiq 8

嗰個環節,應該係第三日,唔係後日,補充更正一點。宏福苑嘅維修工程就喺2024 年6 1 月展開,最終嘅合約價係336,000,000,平均每個單位就用咗港幣約170,000。棚架喺 2 2024 年6 月至7 月期間喺8 座樓宇上高搭建完成。我而家會轉述火災當日發生嘅情況, 3 正如主席剛剛提到,我哋所展示一啲嘅證據可能會令在座嘅人士感到不安,秘書處安排 4 咗專業人士喺我哋呢個場館同埋中央圖書館觀景廳駐守,如果有需要協助,請同工作人 5 員聯絡。喺我哋睇有關嘅證據之前,有兩點我想大家留意嘅:第一就係今次嘅大火其實 6 係一個外牆嘅、首先喺外牆發生嘅火警,技術上高英語亦都叫做“(English 7 Spoken)”,火勢係由外面嘅棚架燒入樓宇裏面,所以火同埋煙換句話講係由外面攻入 8 室內。第二個,大家都知道而非常不幸嘅特點,就係火勢由第一座樓宇迅速咁樣向其他 9 樓宇蔓延,所以大家亦都會睇到有關嘅火勢點樣由第一座先起火嘅樓宇一路咁樣去其他 10 6 座傳播。喺舊年嘅11 月26 日,當日宏福苑嘅居民如常咁前往,返學嘅返學,返工嘅 11 返工。工人亦都如常咁去抵達咗工地進行宏福苑嘅維修工程。當時樓宇內部嘅油漆同埋 12 修復工程其實大致上已經完成,亦8 座樓宇外牆瓷磚嘅更換係正在進行中。大家可能亦 13 都之前留意過當日嘅天氣係非常乾燥,初時係有微風,大約下午3 點,當時的相對濕度 14 只有40%,吹東南風,風速約每小時14 公里,天文台當日係發出咗紅色火災危險警告。 15 嗱,首個有記錄嘅火災跡象係喺當日下午2 點40 分發出,閉路電視監察嘅畫面顯示是 16 有物料從宏昌閣,即係頭先我們睇到嘅F 座後方跌落去地面嘅。大家睇到嘅係我哋叫做 17 宏昌閣4 樓嘅閉路電視,係而家見到係有個紅圈嗰個地方。我哋檢視咗喺呢個角度嘅閉 18 路電視,我哋建議委員會同埋大家留意影片裏面嘅若干片段,我哋會參照喺左上角所顯 19 示嘅,喺右上角顯示嘅時間標記去説明嘅,我哋開始睇呢條片(播放影片),大家見到 20 2 點11 分,大家見到右上角有途人走過。去到33 分,如果大家細心留意,你哋會見到 21 有啲灰燼或者碎片會開始喺右手邊你會見到係掉落。我哋加速咗呢個畫面嘅,之後大家 22 會慢慢細心就會留意到,會見到喺光井裏面其實會逐漸見到一啲嘅煙霧。或者我哋再睇 23 多一次(播放影片),我建議委員會可能及後喺一個較黑嘅環境再睇一次呢條片段會更 24 加清楚。如果去到43 分,大家會見到畫面右側圈住嗰度有一啲細小嘅閃光,係疑似燃燒 25 緊嘅灰燼,係畫面嘅右上角大家會見到會有較大嘅閃光。跟住去到44 分至45 分,會出 26 現進一步嘅閃光,跟住之後就會持續會有幾下。右下角,我哋而家會以加快速度播放鏡 27 頭,影到最後、呢條片最後嘅3 分鐘,直到畫面喺2 點48 分02 秒中斷。宏昌閣所有閉 28 路電視嘅畫面其實亦都喺同一時間中斷,所以我哋相信喺嗰個時候火災可能係切斷咗電 29 纜或者數據傳送嗰啲嘅輸送線。嗱,頭先睇嘅閉路電視雖然未有錄音,但係我哋喺另一 30 部由承建商安裝喺5 樓棚架嘅監控攝影機嗰度係有一啲當時嘅音頻,我哋留意畫面同埋 31 聽一聽當時錄到嘅情況,我哋會由2 點42 分55 秒開始播放(播放影片),會、關鍵位 32 會有啲字幕,令大家睇得更加清晰。我哋之後會跳到去10…2 點45 分10 秒,你哋會聽 33 到一啲工人嘅驚慌叫聲,同埋睇到其實有關嘅火焰之後攻陷咗有關嘅鏡頭。我哋播多次 34

Evidential Hearing in relation to fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po

A Court Reporting Transcript by Epiq 9

頭先最重要嗰個位。各位喺呢啲錄音我哋可以推斷到其實火警係喺當日下午2 時42 分 1 至2 時45 分期間首先被工人發現嘅,呢個推斷亦都在場嘅工人,一位叫鄭石宏(音) 2 先生嘅口供相符,我們稍候係火災成因嘅時候會再探討鄭先生嘅口供。下一段嘅錄影係 3 當日下午2 時50 分43 秒,呢段嘅影片喺由一位途人葉輝(音)先生所拍攝,其實呢段 4 片係網上已經廣泛流傳,但係呢個係一個非常重要嘅證據,當中嘅時間,嗰個數據其實 5 係條片嘅數據顯示嚟嘅,片長其實係6 秒嘅啫,(播放影片)。大家見到其實呢個顯示 6 嘅就係1 樓嗰個天井平台,畫面嘅右邊嘅火焰滴落就係我哋頭先一開始睇到嗰條閉路電 7 視嘅影片,所以我們見到初初右邊嗰啲火花其實就喺係呢個位嘅下邊。當日差不多同一 8 時間2 時25 分,警方收到第一個999 電話嘅求救(播放錄音),喺3 分鐘之後,葉輝 9 先生亦都拍攝咗一系列嘅影片,佢嘅拍攝位置當時就係元洲仔公園,我哋可以推斷其實 10 當時就係宏昌閣東面嘅光井(播放短片)。大家留意到當時佢提到係未有聽到任何火警 11 鐘,喺大概3 分鐘之後,其實嗰個火焰已經沿住東向嗰個天井一路蔓延咗好多層,以下 12 一段片大家會見到當時嘅火勢同埋消防員到達現場。呢次消防員到達現場距離第一個 13 999 電話其實係6 分鐘嘅,同時大家喺呢段片亦都可以睇到喺當時,呢個外牆嘅竹棚亦 14 都開始跌落嚟(播放短片)。主席或者兩位留意到當時竹枝跌落嚟嘅情況,我哋跟住會 15 睇差不多同步,2 點57 分到2 點58 分,我哋見到其實棚架嘅結構已經破裂咗,當時棚 16 架跌落嚟嘅情況係更加嚴重,呢一個喺之後嘅證據你哋會聽到對於消防員嘅救火工作造 17 成極大嘅困難(播放影片)。我哋喺呢一度如果停一停,咁去分析呢一件事,喺呢一個 18 階段雖然喺宏昌閣嘅火勢係好犀利,當時似乎係未有波及去其他幾棟大廈,係嗰個時間 19 點樣疏散,或者可不可以疏散係之後嘅題目。火災最初蔓延嘅情況亦都係有另一位居民 20 係咪宏福苑南面、南側嘅一位市民拍攝咗一系列嘅片段嘅,接下嚟大家睇到嘅會係3 點 21 02 分開始,當時宏昌閣已經陷入咗火海嘅喇。當時咧,其實唔到1 分鐘之後咧,大家接 22 下來會睇到咧,宏昌閣另一個南面嗰個南面嗰個光井,另外一個光井亦都係由地面燒到 23 咗去天台,係完全着火嘅(播放影片)。主席、兩位,呢個係3 點03 分,你見到呢個 24 火勢咁犀利唔係起火嗰一個光井嚟嘅,即係已經蔓延到第二個。喺下午嘅3 點09 分, 25 由另外一個角度我哋都睇到宏昌閣嘅火勢,有兩點我想大家留意嘅,第一就係地面嗰層 26 火嘅範圍咧,其實係、大家見到其實係宏昌閣嘅大堂嚟嘅,所以意味着居民其實係果陣 27 嗰個主要嘅逃生嘅路口喺3 點09 分已經、已經堵塞咗。大家第二樣嘢可以亦都見到, 28 之後係畫面裏邊顯示得好清楚,其實只係用咗30 秒,個火係燒咗好多層(播放短片)。 29 主席、兩位,如果概括而言,大家可以留意到就係嗰個火勢蔓延嘅情況,下午2 點42 30 至45 分被工人發現,不足15 分鐘,即係2 點58 分,其實嗰度火處已經喺東面光井差 31 唔多燒曬整棟嘅大廈。再過咗5 分鐘,即係3 點03 分火柱已經完全咁樣去吞沒咗南面 32 嘅光井,再過多5 分鐘,即係換句話講,3 點08 分咧其實火勢已經蔓延到宏昌閣另外一 33 半嘅範圍,即係我哋啱啱見到喺大堂外面當時已經係一個幾大規模嘅火災。主席、兩 34

Evidential Hearing in relation to fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po

A Court Reporting Transcript by Epiq 10

位,雖然我哋因為時間嘅關係,只係畀大家睇以上幾分鐘嘅片段,但係法律團隊喺過去 1 嘅幾個月我哋參考咗超過400 條唔同嘅露營片段,佢哋大部分都係由市民提供畀警方 2 嘅,我哋想多謝各位市民,呢啲影片其實畀我哋可以重組番當日嘅情況,呢啲只係部分 3 有關嘅片段。以下落嚟,我哋會探討火勢由宏昌蔓延去宏泰閣嘅情況。我哋會播一條閉 4 路電視嘅畫面,呢個係2 點58 分,即係距離發現個火警大概十多分鐘之後,大家會喺 5 呢條片度睇到其實有碎片咧,已經是有關嘅火勢喺宏泰閣嗰邊發現,我哋會用2 倍嘅速 6 度播放,因為不想咗大家嘅時間。有關嘅錄影其實係喺宏泰閣嘅CCTV 嗰度影到嘅,陣 7 間我哋會、會顯示有關嘅位置(播放短片),大家開始見到有煙喇,而家大家見到紅圈 8 嗰度就係頭先閉路電視嗰個位,其他閉路電視亦都睇到宏泰閣其時嘅棚架喺3 點02 分 9 已經開始燃燒了嘅(播放短片)。而家見到呢個係04 分嘅,呢、呢一個蔓延嘅時間其實 10 同我哋收到高級消防隊長許健安(音)嘅證據,佢嘅供詞亦都係吻合嘅,佢嘅、根據佢 11 當時提供嘅證供,其實火勢大概3 點由宏昌蔓延到宏泰閣嘅東面。去到跟住我哋睇3 點 12 16 分,其實情況同宏昌閣係相似,宏泰閣亦都係個光井位出現火柱。右邊係宏昌,左邊 13 係宏泰,嗰條火柱係宏泰嘅火柱嚟嘅。大家去到再睇1 分鐘之後,當時我哋見到宏泰閣 14 南向光井亦都全面着火,所以大家見到其實個火勢嘅蔓延同燃燒最嚴重個位,似乎每一 15 座大廈都係嗰個光井。根據消防處提供嘅證據咧,有關火勢蔓延嗰個時間同埋嗰個次 16 序,喺嚟緊、喺嗰5 座大廈嗰度係、係以下咁樣嘅,宏盛閣係3 點20 分,宏建閣同宏 17 新閣係3 點25 分,宏道閣係3 點39 分,而宏仁閣係4 點04 分。當然,大家都係用緊 18 手頭上嘅證據去分析蔓延嘅時間,我哋睇到嘅片段裏面咧,個蔓延嘅時間同埋速度可能 19 比消防嗰個講法仲快少少嘅,我們可以睇其實喺3 點10 分我哋亦都見到宏盛閣,即係 20 宏昌閣右邊嘅其實已經着咗火嘅啦,大家可以睇一睇呢條片(播放影片),大家見唔見 21 到其實個棚網上高已經有啲火種。閉路電視嘅畫面顯示,其實燃燒嘅碎片喺3 點12 分 22 亦都跌咗落去宏新閣嗰度嘅,大家之前睇過差不多嘅片斷,雖然火勢未係好大,但係大 23 家應該見到火種(播放短片)。大家見到呢一個係喺宏新閣30 號鏡頭,紅圈嗰個位。跟 24 住大家,我想畀大家睇一睇嘅係一條喺廣福邨,即係喺附近屋邨廣麗樓拍攝,我哋可以 25 見到喺宏建閣其實喺3 點20 分都出現咗火苗嘅(播放短片)。主席、兩位,我想你留 26 意呢一個位置,其實我哋喺嗰度都見到火種。同一個位置拍攝嘅影片顯示,喺5 分鐘之 27 後,3 點25 分火勢其實蔓延去右側,下一座宏新閣(播放短片),大家見到個火種。另 28 一條影片我哋睇到喺下午3 點59 分宏新閣嘅火災影片,呢個係至今我哋睇過嘅片裏 29 邊,最清晰咁顯示到火柱點樣可以喺分半鐘裏面由地下快速咁燃燒上去天、最高層嘅地 30 方(播放短片)。大家見到短短其實3 分鐘度嘅情況就已經係咁,最後我哋睇下一個較 31 遠嘅拍攝距離,下午4 點11 分,火勢其實已經蔓延到宏道同埋宏仁閣,到呢個時候宏 32 福苑8 座入面7 座已經着火。(播放短片)嗱,我哋剛剛睇過嘅係外牆嘅火勢,而家我 33 哋想轉播就係一段有線新聞嘅攝影片段,見到火勢點樣由大廈嘅外牆迅速伸延到大廈內 34

Evidential Hearing in relation to fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po

A Court Reporting Transcript by Epiq 11

部嘅單位。喺影片裏面我哋可以睇到樓宇由左至右分別係宏仁、宏道、宏新、宏建、宏 1 泰同埋宏昌,而家係下午5 點半,其實大部分棚架已經完全燒燬(播放短片)。我想大 2 家留意見到其實有啲單位裏面當時係明顯地係燒緊嘅,特別係宏道、宏建同埋宏泰。同 3 一條片下午6 點嘅情況,我哋見到6 座樓宇裏面更多單位係被燃燒嘅(播放短片)。去 4 到32 分,我哋跟住,大家會再見到光井裏面亦都會再出現一啲火柱(播放短片)。大家 5 留意有線新聞嗰個左上角嗰條火柱,睇下嗰個大廈嘅左邊,我哋唔能夠完全見到,但你 6 會見到嗰啲火勢。至於去到當晚嘅9 點半,其實情況同之前相比冇太大嘅改變,但大家 7 見到嘅就係好多內部單位入部都起咗火(播放短片),燒緊嘅係…大家見到係好多居民 8 嘅客廳、睡房同埋廚房,喺呢個時候火災確認咗有9 名人士死亡。之後可以好簡短咁, 9 大家再睇一睇之後嘅情況。火勢大家知道係、其實係整晚都係繼續燃燒啦。香港01 嘅影 10 片顯示咗喺凌晨2 點嘅時候,大家見到宏新、宏泰、宏昌好多單位內部其實係猛烈燃 11 燒,當時確定嘅死亡人數係36 人(播放短片)。跟住我哋睇5 點,朝頭早嘅時候喇, 12 當時火勢可以話係減弱,但係宏新閣好多單位其實都仲係燒得好犀利嘅,跟住之後我哋 13 會睇7 點,到7 點個情況有明顯改善,當時確認係44 人死亡。之後嘅火勢有記錄,但 14 係去到當晚嘅7 點,大家仍然見到有啲單位仲係燒緊,救火行動係仍然繼續(播放短 15 片)。跟住我哋去之後凌晨1 點,仲係燒緊嘅,當時,當時嘅火災其實已經釀成咗83 16 嘅死亡。記錄話畀我哋知消防行動最終係喺2025 年11 月28 日1018,10 點18 分宣佈 17 結束,火災歷時43 小時。主席、兩位,之後我會向大家解釋而家我哋睇到起火嘅原因, 18 可能呢個係一個合適嘅時候作出一個小休。 19 陸啟康法官:好吖,而家我哋10 分鐘嘅小休。 20

21 11 時16 分聆訊押後 22 11 時25 分聆訊繼續 23

24 陸啟康法官:係,請繼續。 25 杜淦堃資深大律師:係,接下嚟我哋想同委員會講解一下我哋對起火成因嘅初步瞭解。我哋已經 26 收到一份由消防處牽頭,跨部門調查專組準備嘅初步調查報告,報告係由政府嘅專家撰 27 寫,當中包括將會係聽證會提供證據嘅政府化驗所嘅李永民(音)博士。在作出任何結 28 論之前,當然委員會會考慮跨部門調查專組嘅最終報告啦,同埋由委員會聘請嘅獨立專 29 家,理工大學嘅(English Spoken)同埋江黎明教授嘅調查報告,喺呢個前提底下我哋 30 會先審視政府化驗所同埋跨部門調查專組嘅、提供嘅初步嘅一啲嘅睇法。首先,所有證 31 據都係顯示起火嘅地點係宏昌閣104 同埋105 號單位外面光井嘅底部平台,即係我哋頭 32 先睇過呢一個3D 模型所顯示嘅呢個位。我哋亦都睇到由途人葉輝拍攝嘅影片同埋閉路電 33 視嘅畫面去確認火災嘅起火嘅地點。李博士喺去年提交嘅證人陳述書裏邊亦都提交咗一 34

Evidential Hearing in relation to fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po

A Court Reporting Transcript by Epiq 12

啲詳細嘅分析嘅。係圖1,即係第3 頁裏邊大家睇到樓層嘅平面圖,顯示咗104 同105 1 單位之間嘅光井底部嗰啲混凝土平面係受到最嚴重嘅火災損害。喺嗰個地方、嗰個金屬 2 圍欄咧嗰個變形都可以反映到當時嗰個火災嗰個嚴重性嘅,大家可能各位去過、去現場 3 做考察嘅時候大家都會記得呢一個位置。接住落嚟,我哋都想畀委員會睇一睇當中有 4 關、大家留意到當中有關呢啲嘅圖片顯示呢度嘅情況,大家會見到一啲冇燒到嘅發泡膠 5 同埋似乎係煙頭嘅,喺呢個位。政府跨部門的調查專組認為起火嘅原因最有可能係有人 6 燃點香煙引致呢個光井嘅底部同埋平台嘅可燃物燃燒。係呢個階段我哋想強調,當然我 7 哋未必會揾到直接嘅證據去證明最初嘅起火原因啦,當火災係被發現嘅時候,嗰個火勢 8 大家見到已經係唔細,而且距離點火嘅時間已經過咗數分鐘,但係…所以單憑呢啲間接 9 嘅證據,我哋可能未必百分之一百知道嗰個起火最精準嘅原因。有鑑於此,我哋亦都轉 10 術政府跨部門專組對起火原因嘅初步調查結果,正如李博士喺佢嘅證人陳述書第2.19 11 至2.22 條入邊所述,宏昌閣104 同105 號單位外面呢個光井嗰個表層瓦礫,警方其實 12 亦都係喺挖掘之後發現到大量係燒焦的紙箱殘骸以及垃圾,包括一哋嘅手套啦、膠樽 13 啦,飲料罐、匙羹,同埋亦都有兩個煙頭。跨部門調查專組嘅初步調查報告亦都提及, 14 嗰個光井裏邊係似乎有有人食煙嘅證據,報告指出最可能、個可能性係燃點呢個有關可 15 燃物嘅火源,應該會係一啲煙頭焫着咗一哋嘅紙箱。除咗係104、105 單位外邊發現咗 16 煙頭,其實亦都有其他間接嘅證據去指向吸煙同埋煙頭係、可能係今次起火嘅原因。 17 嗱,大家會記得我哋啱啱,今早睇過係宏昌閣5 樓棚架外邊當起火嘅時候有一啲嘅錄 18 音,當然當時有人提到係唔係有人食煙啊、邊個食煙啊?咁呢啲雖然未係最直接嘅證 19 據,但係同其他嘅證據加埋一起,其實有關嘅情況、亦都係有相當嘅情況去顯示呢一點 20 嘅。我哋亦都有現場嘅工人,我頭先提到一位鄭石宏先生佢畀警方嘅證據亦都係相符 21 嘅,他講係當時晏晝2 點40 分佢係5 樓工作嘅時候,亦都曾經聽到有人嗌話邊個食 22 煙,樓下起火呢一啲嘅情況。係火災當日亦都有直接嘅證據顯示工人喺當日喺工地有抽 23 煙嘅。喺宏昌閣嘅頂樓譬如,喺下午嘅2 點10 分同埋2 點43 分,我哋都有閉路電視嘅 24 片段係影到有人食煙,大家見到呢個係2 點10 分,大家見到呢位工人,去到2 點40。 25 陸啟康法官:係邊個?邊個?呢個係宏… 26 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢個係宏昌閣頂樓。 27 陸啟康法官:宏昌,唔該。 28 杜淦堃資深大律師:2 點43 分會睇得更加清楚。當然,我所強調即係唔係同一個位置,我哋唔係 29 話呢一位工人燃點嘅香煙會引起呢一個火警,但呢一個只係當日喺宏昌閣喺有工人食煙 30 嘅證據。而當時亦都有大量嘅證據顯示,其實吸煙嘅情況長期以嚟一直都係居民投訴嘅 31 問題,喺稍候嘅陳詞裏邊我哋會睇一睇呢啲嘅投訴。係呢個階段我都想亦都指出,跨部 32 門調查專組亦都排除咗其他嘅起火嘅的原因嘅,專組認為火警其實不係太可能由電氣故 33 障引起,因為機電工程署喺火災後亦都去現場進行調查,冇發現光井裏面有任何電氣或 34

Evidential Hearing in relation to fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po

A Court Reporting Transcript by Epiq 13

者電線。機電工程署亦都查咗、調查咗附近兩邊104、105 嗰兩個單位,同埋光井旁邊 1 嗰個單車停泊區,亦都未有發現有任何電氣故障嘅跡象,短路、短路器嗰個、嗰個運作 2 其實當時亦都係正常嘅。顯示其實係火災當日104、105 單位就冇發生我哋大家都經歷 3 過嗰個短路,專組亦都排除咗燃氣泄露引起火災呢一個原因嘅。光井裏邊係有中石化經 4 營嘅液化石油氣管道嘅,當時。佢哋嘅調查指出,首先火災後機電工程署發現嗰個主燃 5 嘅管道當然係有燒焦同埋變形,但係管道嘅結構本身係完整,亦都未見到有啲穿孔、裂 6 紋或者有啲腐蝕嘅跡象。其次係火災、如果火災係管道破裂引起咧,起火嘅火焰應該會 7 有一啲噴射式情況出現嘅,因為嗰啲氣會喺管道度噴出來,而大家一路睇到嘅所有片 8 段、所有證據顯示咧,火焰喺光井平台一開始時候嗰個燃燒係比較慢嘅,係後來過咗一 9 段時間先出現嗰個火柱,所以呢一個同氣管出現問題,漏氣引起嘅火警咧似乎係唔吻合 10 嘅。至於機電建築工程產生引致嘅火警,喺現階段專組認為都唔係太大可能,好多時地 11 盤火警係因為一啲燒焊嘅工程引起嘅,而當時進行係外牆一啲嘅瓷磚嘅修補工程,呢啲 12 唔涉及明火或者應該係唔會產生火花嘅,所以初步證據顯示火災係冇透過以上嘅原因引 13 起。佢哋亦都係排除咗係一啲、透過一啲助燃劑或者易燃氣體引起呢一個火警。因為佢 14 哋指出咗喺現場並冇發現任何助燃劑嘅痕跡。政府化驗所都化驗咗平台光井有關嘅混凝 15 土,亦都未見到有被易燃液體嚴重燒灼嘅痕跡,所以佢哋都排除咗呢個可能性。當然, 16 我喺呢個階段想再一次重申,因為吸煙呢一個係居民投訴咗好耐嘅問題,有關工人食煙 17 喺呢件事件有相當嘅證據,但係喺如果從證據層面來講,我哋可能真係未必揾到,有直 18 接嘅證據揾到最終嘅原因,更惶論去揾到係邊個食煙而引起今次嘅火警。但係直至今日 19 嘅證據嚟睇,光井平台似乎真係被工人用作休息同埋儲物嘅地方,喺嗰個位置入面的的 20 確確係有一啲易燃物、有一啲嘅垃圾。工人本身應該係喺宏福苑一啲指定嘅吸煙區裏邊 21 吸煙嘅,如果佢哋要咁做,但係證據都顯示呢個規則係冇被遵守嘅,呢啲有關嘅題目我 22 哋係之後陳詞會再一次探討。之後我想講一講今次火災嗰個傷亡情況,雖然委員會喺聽 23 證會過程裏面會聽取更加多有關起火原因嘅證據,但係我想強調唔係所有…當然唔係所 24 有火災都會造成咁大嘅傷亡。就算係籠統啲咁講,燒到咁犀利嘅火災亦都未必有咁多嘅 25 死傷。依據常理同埋數據顯示,大部分火源係一般嘅火警其實係意外造成的,我哋唔可 26 以徹底…喺任何一個工地或者喺任何一個火災裏面,我哋唔可以徹底咁排除所有潛在起 27 火嘅來源。嗱,講一講香港嘅情況,根據消防處顯示,喺2024 年消防處共接報咗 28 37,828 宗嘅火警,其中5,222 宗為成災嘅火警,就係唔係一啲比較細,好快破滅嘅。當 29 年火災共釀成咗33 人死亡同埋449 人受傷,大部分嘅火災其實屬意外造成,主要可能 30 係一啲廚房烹調嘅意外喇,或者疏忽處理一啲明文物品,例如煙頭,可能一啲嘅蠟燭造 31 成嘅意外,亦都有一啲係電器故障。如果同我哋見到過往嘅數據相比,宏福苑火災造成 32 嘅傷亡的確係令人震驚,委員會係有必要調查重點放在咁大傷亡嘅原因,去釐清呢一場 33 不幸嘅悲劇裏面我哋可以吸取到一啲乜嘢嘅教訓。亦都透過檢視造成重大傷亡嘅原因, 34

Evidential Hearing in relation to fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po

A Court Reporting Transcript by Epiq 14

我哋可以期望、可以攝取有關火災預警、火勢壓制同埋削弱喇,以及一啲安全疏散呢啲 1 題目中嘅教訓,我哋都要就有住户住喺大廈裏面嘅外牆維修工程,從構思、批准嘅全面 2 一個流程裏面去檢視一下點樣去減睇將來同類事情發生嘅風險。我哋收到警方同埋消防 3 處提供有關火災死亡裏邊死亡同埋受傷人數嘅大量嘅證據,我哋希望向火災裏面不幸喪 4 生同埋遭受創傷嘅人士致以哀悼,我們代表整個法律團隊向每一個受影響嘅家庭送上最 5 深切的慰問。大家知道火災造成168 人死亡,79 人受傷,有一啲資料我哋喺呢一個階段 6 係可以向大家公開,168 名死者裏面包括150 名宏福苑嘅住户、9 名外傭,7 名裝修建築 7 工人、1 名訪客,而當然大家亦都知道有1 名消防員。據我哋嘅統計,有37 户家庭係失 8 去2 名以上嘅成員,裏面有夫妻、父母、子女、兄弟姐妹,死者裏面有58 名係男性, 9 110 名女性。年齡係由6 個月到98 歲不等,其中114 人年滿65 歲或以上,7 人未滿18 10 歲。我哋喺資料裏面見到好多令人心碎同埋有關喪失家庭成員嘅故事,同埋一啲比較壯 11 烈犧牲嘅事蹟,有啲、喺宏泰閣有一啲家庭,祖父、祖母同埋1 歲大嘅孫女同埋外傭都 12 係同一時間逝世,宏昌閣裏面有個家庭係一對夫婦同埋佢哋6 個月大嘅孫女係離世,有 13 一户家庭亦都喪失咗母親同埋兩名女兒,嗰兩名小朋友分別係12 同埋13 歲。未來嘅數 14 日,宏福苑一啲生還嘅居民佢哋會嚟到聽證會里邊作供,到時大家會聽到更加多當時嘅 15 情況同佢哋嘅經歷。我哋係呢度都想向火葬裏邊喪生嘅外傭致以,當中佢哋大部分都係 16 留喺單位裏面照顧長者同埋兒童,喺盡忠職守的情況之下同埋僱主家庭一同不幸罹難。 17 受傷人士則由3 個月至87 歲不等,當中13 位係消防員或者救護員,56 位係居民,居民 18 嘅傷勢多數都是因為吸入濃煙所致。而前線救護人員主要是受到身體嘅創傷,熱力造成 19 的衰竭同埋燒傷。我哋掌握到有關宏福苑嘅死亡同埋受傷嘅人數嘅分佈,我哋可以睇番 20 城市大學為我哋去準備嘅圖解,大家見到絕大部分嘅死亡個案同埋受傷個案都發生喺宏 21 昌同埋宏泰閣,黃色標誌咗兩座嘅樓宇E 同F。宏昌閣共有80 人死亡,33 人受傷(更 22 正:81 人死亡,33 人受傷),大部分死者係死於單位裏面。宏泰閣共有80 人死亡,14 23 人受傷,大量死者係被發現喺樓梯、樓梯間嗰度。至於其他宏福苑嘅大廈方面,宏建閣 24 冇發現死亡或者受傷個案,宏盛閣有1 人死亡,2 人受傷,宏新有2 人死亡,宏道閣有 25 9 人受傷,2 人死亡,宏仁閣有1 名傷者。我哋將進一步聽取市民、消防員同埋警方就 26 搜索被困住户、追查失蹤人士,同埋宏福苑遺體回收行動作出嘅證供。喺呢一個階段我 27 哋有以下幾個觀察:死亡同受傷個案絕大多數集中喺最先起火嘅宏昌同宏泰閣,呢個大 28 家頭先都會睇到。宏新閣即係頭先大家見到嘅C 座,佢哋其實大廈係燒得最嚴重,佢內 29 部嘅損毀程度同埋宏昌同埋宏泰其實係相約嘅,但係嗰死亡人數就淨係得2 位,造成比 30 較低死亡人數嘅原因之一可能係因為當時火警鐘係運作嘅,喺嗰座大廈。我哋稍候會探 31 討呢一個問題。宏盛閣共有1 人死亡同埋2 人受傷,喺而家嘅資料裏面睇到居民大致係 32 能夠逃離宏盛閣,因為火勢嘅蔓延其實係比較遲先去到宏盛閣。宏建同埋宏仁冇死亡個 33 案,傷者亦都極少,個原因係因為宏建閣其實未受火勢影響,至於宏仁閣雖然火勢頗為 34

Evidential Hearing in relation to fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po

A Court Reporting Transcript by Epiq 15

猛烈,我哋初步觀察就係可能因為火警鐘其實係有響過,同埋有人用擴音器,即係攞住 1 手提嘅喇叭去提醒居民要疏散,加上火勢其實係喺6 點半先到樓上蔓延,所以住户當時 2 係有時間離開。死亡嘅個案裏面,證據顯示有100 名死者死於單位內,從此可以推斷大 3 部分人嘅罹難原因係火勢及濃煙進入咗單位所致。同時有可能係因為居民見到走廊或者 4 出了門口之後睇到樓梯其實已經畀濃煙攻陷咗,或者畀火勢吞沒,所以其實佢哋冇辦法 5 咁安全再逃離佢哋所居住嘅單位,被逼留在家中。在生還者方面我哋掌握到宏福苑一啲 6 住户係點樣去逃離火場,喺而家嘅證據裏面我哋可以歸納以下嘅資訊,全部8 座樓宇裏 7 面超過220 個單位嘅住户係當日自行乘搭升降機咁樣去離開火場,約150 個單位嘅住户 8 係用樓梯嘅,所以搭𨋢走嘅人係比較多。消防處係宏福苑裏邊35 個不同地點係救出咗 9 50 名人士,當中10 位係喺公用嘅地方,即係樓梯啊、走廊裏邊獲救,其餘係喺佢哋居 10 住或者身處嘅單位裏面獲救。值得留意嘅係至少有900 個單位嘅住户,即係佔我哋後來 11 去調查受訪者嘅6 成,係火災嘅時候唔係宏福苑裏面,當時佢哋可能出去工作、上學或 12 者係出外辦事,所以如果呢場火災發生喺夜晚,大家可以想象到嗰個情況會係幾咁嚴 13 重。至於各個單位嘅損毀,值得留意嘅係有啲單位當然係被完全燒燬,另一方面有啲單 14 位基本上係未受火勢影響嘅。主席同兩位委員你哋會記得喺我哋第一次去到宏福苑做考 15 察嘅時候,我哋係被帶到去當時起火旁邊104 同埋105 號單位,大家而家喺熒幕上高睇 16 到嘅係105 號單位,嗰個火災損毀嘅程度係非常嚴重,其實簡單咁講其實係燒曬嘅。 17 陸啟康法官:我諗嗰個好似唔係好清楚,我呢個、我呢個熒幕就比較清楚啲,不過唔緊要啦,你 18 有冇得補救?如果冇… 19 杜淦堃資深大律師:等一等,我哋處理到,可能。而家可能好少少,基本上105 嗰單位係嚴重燒 20 燬。但我哋被帶到去同一層隔、隔壁嘅單位,呢個、呢個係103,呢個係火災之後同我 21 哋當日去做考察嘅情況基本上冇分別,大家見到其實大火係冇影響到同一層隔壁嘅單 22 位。大家見到裏邊其實所有用紙做嘅嘢都冇受影響,有紙巾、有報紙。所以火勢點樣喺 23 外牆進入單位,呢個係專家調查嘅重點範圍。正如我哋所、頭先所講大部分罹難嘅住户 24 都係死喺單位裏面。由於火災最初係外牆嘅大火,所以外部燃燒入單位內部,呢一個情 25 況可唔可以防止?其實係值得深究嘅。特別係其實窗户上高擺設咗發泡膠,會唔會造成 26 火勢由棚架燃燒至室內嘅單位咧?呢個係另一個我哋要探討嘅問題。值得留意嘅係,縱 27 觀近年其實發生過一啲外牆嘅火災嘅,呢個唔罕見,但係好少好似今次咁造成咁大嘅傷 28 亡,我想大家睇下以下呢一條片(播放短片),呢一個係喺2023 年喺天津發生嘅一場 29 嚴重火災,大家見到其實咧,第一,呢個外牆火災同埋佢有同樣嘅煙囱效應嘅,大家見 30 到嗰條火龍。大家見到單位裏面嘅辦公嘅人士其實係、似乎係冇受影響,呢場火災冇造 31 成任何死亡。當時似乎濃煙同埋火勢係冇由外牆攻入單位裏面。消防處向我哋提供咗每 32 一個單位裏面嘅照片,亦都提供咗佢哋嘅評估,整體而言咧,喺受影響嘅7 座樓宇共 33 1,736 個單位裏面有924 個單位,即係大概53%遭受咗唔同程度嘅損毀,其餘812 個係 34

Evidential Hearing in relation to fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po

A Court Reporting Transcript by Epiq 16

並未有受影響。嗱,就宏昌閣而言咧,呢個可能係會一目瞭然,幾乎所有1 號同埋3 1 號,3 號至8 號嘅單位都受咗不同程度嘅影響。63%嘅單位受到極嚴重嘅損毀,即係基本 2 上完全焚燬嘅,或者嚴重的損毀,即係大面積嘅碳化或者變形,大部分嘅燃燒物被燃 3 燒。我哋去睇一睇宏泰,喺宏泰閣幾乎所有1 至5 號,同埋8 號嘅單位都受影響,58% 4 嘅單位遭到極嚴重或者嚴重嘅損毀。跟住我哋睇宏建,宏建嘅情況自然不同,其實淨係 5 得少數單位受影響,其實得一個單位遭到較嚴重嘅損壞。跟住睇宏新,宏新閣嘅每個單 6 位都有啲唔同程度嘅受損喇,其中58%嘅單位遭到嚴重嘅損毀。跟住睇宏道,宏道閣2 7 號室同3 號室嘅單位,我哋見到幾乎都全部有嚴重嘅或者極嚴重嘅損毀,其餘大部分單 8 位就係幾乎未受呢個受損嘅。宏仁咧,有相似嘅地方。宏盛,大家見到係6 號室嘅單位 9 受嚴重影響,其他單位幾乎未受影響。我哋都睇過曬全部樓梯有生口嘅照片,喺宏仁、 10 宏道、宏建同埋宏志嘅樓梯基本上係冇受損嘅,而宏新、宏泰、宏昌嘅樓梯全部都被火 11 燒燬,呢個情況係同7 座樓宇嘅火勢蔓延,裏面我哋睇到其他嘅證據其實係吻合嘅。接 12 下嚟,我想向委員會陳述所有被動同埋主動防火措施失效嘅情況。死亡同埋受傷個案集 13 中喺宏昌同宏泰,呢個情況我哋會作出進一步嘅調查。其中一個特別重要嘅議題當然係 14 檢視其實住户透過嗰個樓宇逃生的途徑設立當時嗰個能力。喺聽證會里面,我哋會評估 15 住户喺火災裏面撤離可用嘅時間,以及不同因素去限制咗佢哋有關撤離嘅時間。呢一個 16 概念我哋可以睇下《建築物消防安全守則》裏面,我哋而家睇到嘅係2011 版,2024 年 17 修訂咗裏面G1 圖表。螢幕上見到顯示咗守則上邊嘅中文版本。大家見到喺時間軸上方顯 18 示咗一個叫做,我哋通常叫做“(English Spoken)逃生可用時間”,中間就顯示咗 19 “(English Spoken)逃生所需時間”。(English Spoken)是指逃生途徑可達不可 20 耐受情況的所需時間,換言之(English Spoken)是指逃生嘅途徑裏邊嘅環境條件變得 21 再不安全,疏散者再無法利用呢個、無法逃離嗰個可用時間。我哋會見到如果逃生通 22 道,即係樓梯或者走廊有大量熱力或者濃煙滲入,呢個會大大縮短嗰個逃生可用時間, 23 即係我哋而家見到最上方(English Spoken)嗰個時間。當然呢個會大大削弱咗住户能 24 夠避免受傷或者佢哋逃生嘅時間。我哋喺證據裏面睇到逃生通道尤其是樓梯,其實喺火 25 災嘅初期已經畀濃煙攻陷,停一停喺呢度,呢個亦都可能會解釋到其實好多人用𨋢走而 26 唔係用樓梯走。時間軸下方RSET,基於火災開始嘅時候,視被發現嘅時間去計算嘅話, 27 如果常用嘅警示信號,例如警鐘係延遲或者失效嘅話,呢個會增加RSET,即係亦都係住 28 户透過逃生通道撤離所需嘅時間。喺證據裏面嚟睇宏福苑好多住户喺我哋嘅調查裏面話 29 畀我哋知佢哋未聽到、當日冇聽到火警鐘,因為…當然而家我哋知道係火警系統失效 30 啦。此外,其實警鐘唔係佢哋唯一發現有火警嘅方法啦,但係因為當時佢哋嘅窗户畀個 31 發泡膠板遮住,所以其實佢睇唔到外邊嘅煙霧或者火勢,呢個亦都影響咗佢哋嗰個要逃 32 走嗰個意識。嗱,正如我哋之前所講,宏福苑逃生嘅途徑係一個U 型公共走廊同埋鉸剪 33 樓梯,火警當日走廊及樓梯其實冇有效咁阻隔煙火,我哋可以話其實呢一啲嘅逃生嘅措 34

Evidential Hearing in relation to fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po

A Court Reporting Transcript by Epiq 17

施,當日係未有發揮佢應有嘅作效。嗱,至於走廊同埋嗰升降機大堂本身,宏福苑升降 1 機大堂同樓梯窗户其實係開得嘅,喺火災期間咧,有部分分層嘅走廊窗户係開咗,咁大 2 家可以想象到如果係開咗嘅時候,棚架外邊嘅濃煙會迅速嘅進入升降機大堂同埋走廊, 3 呢個係當然係會影響撤離嘅時間。呢一段嘅、大家而家睇到呢一段片係大概3 點18 分 4 前、大概3 點18 分前喺宏泰閣31 樓拍攝,我哋可以確定嗰地點同時間,因為有關嘅閉 5 路電視顯示咗同一羣人升降機度地面嘅,所以我哋用唔同嘅證據去確定番呢條片嗰個時 6 間係正確嘅(播放短片)。我哋可以睇到其實當時個濃煙正從呢個升降機大堂嗰個窗嗰 7 度湧入嚟。委員會其中一個工作係要審視適用嘅設施、適用嘅設施,例如有關嘅窗户對 8 逃生路徑影響、有關嘅規定。至於樓梯嘅問題,呢個係更加令人感到不、不安嘅,喺搭 9 建棚架嘅時候有好多樓梯裏邊嘅窗户其實係被拆除,改裝所做一些可燃嘅木質嘅出入 10 口。大家可以睇到而家圈住咗嘅係工人同埋承建商改裝咗俗稱嘅生口,呢啲生口其實用 11 嚟做乜?其實用嚟方便方便工人係建築物內部出入個棚架。委員會參考咗宏泰閣閉路電 12 視片段就會更加理解當時嘅情況(播放短片)。得唔得?大家見到啲工人喺後樓梯生口 13 裏面出入嘅情況,我哋將展示一啲臨時生口嘅圖片。我哋相信呢啲臨時嘅生口係唔符合 14 《建築物消防守則》第F5.6(a)條嘅規定,我哋稍候亦都會審視呢啲生口係咪令到火 15 勢同濃煙由棚架迅速涉入梯間,而去阻止咗住户逃生嘅路徑,或者等一等,Okay.為咗 16 評估宏昌閣同埋宏泰閣裏面重大傷亡嘅原因,我哋亦都會審視火災發生時候各座樓宇嘅 17 內部情況,尤其是宏昌閣同宏泰閣嘅情況係特別需要注意嘅。我哋想喺呢度強調,就大 18 火時候,大廈內部嘅影片,我哋淨係掌握咗有限嘅影片,呢個唔係因為每座大廈…唔係 19 因為佢哋冇安裝閉路電視,而大部分係因為、而係大部分大廈嘅閉路電視大家會明白喺 20 火災時候係中斷咗。咁另外一個辦法就係嘗試用999 救助電話,或者單位裏邊個保安攝 21 影機,以及住户提供嘅一啲影片,去整合番當時嘅情況。我哋先睇一睇宏昌閣,宏昌閣 22 而言,警方係喺下午2 點52 分57 秒接到第一個喺宏昌閣內打出嚟嘅求救電話,呢個差 23 唔多係工人首次發現濃煙後嘅10 分鐘左右,而發現火警途人第一個999 電話大家之前 24 聽過,呢個大概喺2 分鐘之後,喺2 點52 分我哋見到10 樓嘅樓梯咧,其實係已經充滿 25 咗濃煙味,成個走廊其實都係煙㗎喇(播放錄音)。我哋理解致電者係一位王家阮 26 (音)小姐,佢係少數能夠通過樓梯逃離宏昌閣住户之一。佢畀警方嘅口供裏面,佢都 27 澄清喺下午大概2 時50 分係10 樓樓梯聞到煙味,但冇見到有煙或者火嘅,佢係聞到味 28 先。王小姐喺下午2 點25 分成功(口誤),Sorry,2 點55 分咁成功逃離咗宏昌閣,顯 29 示當時其實個樓梯係仍然一個可以接受嘅情況。佢、我哋預期王小姐係會喺我哋呢個程 30 序裏面出嚟向大家解釋當時嘅情況。喺下午2 點59 分55 秒,喺2701 號單位嘅住户亦 31 都致電報警,佢同時報告喺28 樓發生火警,其實煙霧已經充滿咗單位,火屑就喺單位裏 32 面,喺外邊。我哋、可惜我哋相信2701 單位嘅住户係罹難嘅(播放錄音)。主席、兩 33 位,點解我哋播啱啱嗰幾分鐘,除咗反映當時嗰層嗰情況之外,當然處理999 電話求助 34

Evidential Hearing in relation to fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po

A Court Reporting Transcript by Epiq 18

有既定嘅程序,之後亦都有證據去、去…大家去考慮一下當時處理呢啲求助電話個情況 1 實際上係點樣樣?有冇改善嘅空間咧?或者處理嘅方法係咪恰當咧?有證據去處理呢一 2 啲嘅問題嘅,所以呢個係一個例子,之後我哋唔會有太多呢啲嘅錄音播出嘅。我哋亦都 3 掌握咗宏昌閣係15 樓嘅拍攝影片,喺火災初期其實都係喺網上高廣泛留傳嘅,我哋將影 4 片播放同埋停喺2 點53 分,大家見到2 點53 分大廈走廊係冇煙嘅,去2 點54 分15 秒 5 (播放短片)。需要少少時間,可能我哋要重新開啓嗰個系統,得唔得?由頭播,都係 6 唔得(播放短片)。或者我哋就宏昌、宏泰閣呢一條嘅片,我哋暫時係跳過咗佢先。都 7 唔得係嘛?得唔得?我諗我哋想喺呢條片上面,雖然有啲、有啲障礙,大家可以睇到個 8 重點就係宏昌閣嘅樓梯喺2 點,大概2 點55 分係被濃煙攻陷,而走廊係大約3 點變成 9 濃煙密佈。在宏泰閣方面,首鍾999 求助係喺下午3 時19 分,當時係由2307 號單位撥 10 出嘅,我哋都聽一聽呢個電話(播放錄音),兩點:第一,佢確實確認咗當時係聽唔到 11 火警鐘;第二,從個時間推斷,其實當時聽電話嘅係999 中心嘅,佢係唔知道係宏泰 12 嘅,即係當時亦都有一個混亂就係邊一座有點着火,嗰個對救援行動亦都當然有影響。 13 嗱,但係呢位姚先生其實佢係喺下午大概26 日下午11 時40 分,佢喺單位被發現,其 14 實係由消防員救出咗嘅,所以呢個係一個生還者嚟嘅。喺宏泰閣1606 單位安裝咗保安 15 攝影嘅片段,我哋喺下晝3 點17 分我哋就見到其實有多層都出現咗濃煙嘅,呢度我哋 16 推斷咗當時嘅情況,或者我哋睇一睇當時條片,左上角時間標記15 點16 分,攝影機拍 17 攝到係住户向外張望嘅情況,當時就未有煙嘅。我哋去3 點17 分,其實當時已經攻陷 18 咗喇。我哋已經睇過31 樓嘅片段,當時係喺呢一個3 點18 分之前冇幾耐,而嗰啲濃煙 19 係由走廊攻入去大堂。之後,我哋會顯示兩個影片嘅截圖,因為擔心會令到在場人士不 20 安,我哋唔會播放有關嘅影片,但係我哋會想委員會睇一睇相關嘅截圖,因為佢哋係有 21 關樓宇內部濃煙蔓延嘅時間最直接嘅證據嚟嘅。我哋睇過來自宏泰閣一部升降機裏面嘅 22 閉路電視影片,時間嗰標記喺右上角,大家見到當時係3 點17 分嘅。當時其實係有人 23 喺升降機裏面,即係…但係冇需要睇佢哋當時嘅情況,佢哋都係隨住升降機返回地面同 24 埋各樓層好幾次嘅,直至升降機去到11 樓,下一張截圖係3 點18 分42 秒,我哋見到 25 11 樓都係好清楚,冇煙嘅。再去到下一張截圖,我哋睇到升降機上到23 樓,當時係一 26 打開門係被濃煙攻陷咗,咁呢個係第一個影片裏面我哋做出嚟嘅截圖啦。第二段影片係 27 來自宏泰閣另一部升降機,我哋先睇一睇3 點14 分,升降機喺18 樓打開,當時走廊係 28 清晰冇煙,去到14 分,呢個14 分02 秒,我哋去到14 分19 秒,係15 樓打開,當時走 29 廊已經有煙霧喇。去到3 點14 分50 秒,呢個去到地下雖然有煙霧,但係仍然可以見到 30 升降機當時係有人離開嘅。再去到3 點15 分31 秒,升降機喺27 樓打開,27 樓當時係 31 清晰嘅。再過多一陣16 分25 秒9 樓打開,你見到、當時我哋見到有煙。再過多大概20 32 多秒,去到16 分49 秒,升降機嘅地面打開,有啲煙,錄像可以見到有人向外張望,跟 33 住決定唔離開。而升降機喺17 分24 秒翻返咗18 樓,走廊有煙,當時我哋觀察到升降 34

Evidential Hearing in relation to fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po

A Court Reporting Transcript by Epiq 19

機裏面其實個煙霧開始變得、令到裏面變革渾濁。去到18 分04 秒喺27 樓打開,當時 1 濃煙湧入升降機。再過多大概40 秒落番地下,大家見到圖嘅上方其實當時充滿咗煙霧。 2 最後去到24 樓,大家見到當時係19 分29 秒,呢個就濃煙已經覆蓋咗電梯喇,當時。 3 我哋留意到喺升降機入面嘅人喺3 點14 分決定唔係宏泰閣嘅地面樓層離開,我哋相信 4 當時其實火勢已經蔓延到宏泰閣地面嘅附近,所以先有咁嘅反應。而宏泰閣是面向宏昌 5 閣嘅,當時宏泰閣正門嘅情況其實已經非常惡劣,我哋會播放宏泰閣大堂正門閉路電視 6 嘅影片(播放短片)。喺3 點到3 點09 分咧,其實我哋見到住户都係陸續從正門離開 7 嘅。我哋用快鏡睇,因為慳番啲時間。去到3 點09 分咧,我哋留意到係個閘門上高反 8 映到外邊嘅火光,我哋睇唔到個火,但係見到嗰個倒影嘅其實。大家見唔見到個閘嘅右 9 上角,可能見到係有啲係光咗嘅位。去到3 點13 分,明顯地大家見到已經充滿煙霧, 10 有更多人、住户從正門離開啦。大家見到而家嘅係消防員何偉豪,係後來英勇殉職嘅消 11 防員,當時佢喺3 點15 分進入宏泰閣。我哋見到如果一路播落去,去到3 點18 分,最 12 後一批市民經正門離開宏泰閣(播放短片),仲有人走到,到19 分咧,大家會見到個火 13 屑就蔓延到我哋呢個畫面嘅邊緣開始。Okay,綜合我哋睇到嘅影片,我哋推斷到宏泰閣 14 嘅走廊係自3 點14 分開始充滿咗濃煙,直至下午3 時18 分,至少喺27 樓已經唔可以 15 離開。最後一批居民應該喺3 點18 分從正門離開。因此,委員會需要考慮喺下午大約2 16 點52 分發現宏昌閣火警,即係首宗999 電話求助,喺嗰之後其實係咪可以採取更多措 17 施去疏散宏泰閣嘅居民?同時火警警報失效延誤咗佢哋嘅撤離,我哋會喺陳詞稍候再帶 18 大家睇有關呢方面嘅證據。跟住我哋睇宏盛,就宏盛而言,我哋掌握到嘅閉路電視片斷 19 可以追溯到晏晝4 點30 分,我哋可以睇到喺大約4 點仍然有人可以用升降機離開宏盛 20 閣嘅。大家都知道其實宏盛閣嗰個情況係冇咁嚴重,只有一宗嘅死亡個案。我哋跟住去 21 睇宏建,宏建係冇任何傷亡,從閉路電視我哋可以睇到宏建嗰個其實係火勢較輕嘅,喺 22 4 點嘅時候仍然有人可以坐升降機逃離啦,而且走廊睇出來,睇起上嚟未充滿濃煙。跟 23 住去到宏新,宏新,就宏新閣而言,我們掌握到喺樓梯影片可以追溯到晏晝3 點20 24 分,影片就顯示當時樓梯、部分嘅樓梯仍然係冇煙霧嘅。嗱,大家見到呢位人士當時係 25 仲可以走到嘅。但係我哋喺火災後拍、拍攝嘅照片顯示,其實宏新閣嘅樓梯3 號附近基 26 本上係完全燒曬嘅。證據顯示,其實喺大約3 點50 分,呢一座樓宇部分走廊已經充滿 27 咗濃煙,我哋從一名住户家屬提供到當時嘅憶述,就係喺大家見到呢個係佢提供畀委員 28 會嘅證據,佢話“3 點48 分,佢仲聯絡到佢媽媽嘅時候,佢話當時走廊有煙,冇樓梯, 29 走唔到。3 點52 分嘅留言裏邊就聽到有警鐘聲,佢唔確定係咪因為有咗警鐘,所以就冇 30 咗樓梯,但是佢媽媽都係走不到,咁佢一直有同佢母親聯絡。4 點27 分咧佢同佢嘅兄長 31 仍然可以同佢媽媽有個視像嘅對話。”咁當時就做好準備救援嘅,但佢兄長見到大廳裏 32 有煙,在場係在場嘅就會用毛巾同埋去遮蓋門檻,同埋嘗試用水降温,但係4 點半之後 33 佢哋就同家人失去聯絡。喺宏新有兩個死亡個案,其中一個就係1405 呢一個單位。喺 34

Evidential Hearing in relation to fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po

A Court Reporting Transcript by Epiq 20

宏道而言,宏道嘅走廊至少係下午4 點嘅時候我哋見到都係冇煙嘅,我哋掌握嘅閉路電 1 視影片可以追索到16:09,4 點09 分先至中斷,這個係喺大概係第一條火柱係宏道閣 2 蔓延嘅時候。我哋喺3 點59 分,我哋見到有一個住户都係可以離開,搭𨋢離開到大廈 3 嘅。根據證人憶述,煙霧大概喺下午4 點湧入單位,嗰時火柱已經將個樓宇包圍咗㗎 4 喇。分別我哋睇到嘅證據,譬如1304 號單位嘅住户,佢話當時佢同佢嘅妻子係喺宏道 5 閣1304 喇,下晝4 點佢見到有煙係屋企大門外邊進入,打開見到有煙,於是佢同太太 6 就刪門,喺單位裏邊等待救援。另外喺1704 單位裏邊嘅生還者,佢話佢同佢先生想開 7 門離開嘅時候,佢發現走廊都係4 點充滿咗濃煙,冇辦法逃生,所以佢哋關上大門報警 8 求助嘅。正如之前我哋所講,宏道係有兩名死亡個案。係宏仁方面,宏仁在火災初期相 9 對保持冇煙嘅狀態,佢升降機同閉路電視影像去到晏晝嘅6 點20 分,火屑先至係沿住 10 樓宇嘅光井慢慢咁冒升啦,呢個可以解釋點解當時係嗰個畫面係中斷咗嘅。從我哋所見 11 宏仁嘅走廊大致冇煙,所以有較多嘅時間可以用升降機逃生。而我哋都揾到當時居民喺 12 譬如5 點09 分,係喺24 樓喺冒煙嘅情況之下去到地下嘅。有證據,當然因為可能求助 13 人士對於嗰個實際時間嗰個…因為當時混亂嘅情況未必報得係最準,所以當中可能有少 14 少出入啦。但係大致嘅情況,我哋知道1704 單位係晏晝嘅5 點51 分啦,有999 求助電 15 話,佢話佢爸爸係屋裏邊當時已經有呼吸嘅困難啦。求助人士嘅爸爸係李振邦先生啦, 16 咁佢係喺當日嘅、當晚10 時30 分係被消防員救出嘅。大家會記得宏仁有一個受傷個 17 案,冇死亡個案。兩位,呢個綜合咗當時我哋揾到而家最關鍵每一座大廈內部幾時畀濃 18 煙攻陷嘅情況啦、當中一啲最關鍵嘅生還者提供到嘅證據組合番嗰個時間唔同嘅段落, 19 當然當中可能未能夠、可能未能夠完全準確,但係大致嗰個時間,我哋都係揾到嘅。我 20 想轉去講另一個話題,即係考慮到宏福苑我哋所稱係「主動嘅防火措施」。消防處方面 21 提供咗一份非常之有參考價值嘅摘要啦,大家見到每一座大廈會有火警警告系統、消防 22 喉轆系統,同埋每層都有火警玻璃報警器同埋消防鍾。每層走廊亦有設有住户可以使用 23 嘅消防喉轆,以及每層都有消防喉轆嘅接口啦,呢個接口係由樓宇頂部嗰個水箱供水 24 嘅,每層都防咗滅火筒。係樓宇維修期間每層亦都增設咗滅火筒嘅其實,每隔一層。但 25 係好不幸地,證據顯示當時大部分嘅防火設備係、其實係未能正常運作嘅。首先喺火災 26 期間,大廈消防喉轆系統係被關閉嘅,供應消防喉轆同埋消防喉轆接駁口嘅水箱完全冇 27 水。關於消防喉轆同消防喉轆接駁口各方面所需要承擔嘅責任咧我哋稍候會再作出陳 28 詞,但係個結果係當時係有人嘗試使用消防喉轆,但係大家都知道,亦都係網上睇過有 29 一啲片斷,當時係運作不到嘅。我們有一條影片都係喺網上高有流傳過嘅(播放短 30 片)。主席同埋兩位委員,有關裝置嘅失靈當然會帶來一系列唔同嘅影響啦,喺今次火 31 災裏面當然亦都有佢哋嘅責任,但係有一點需要考慮嘅就係,大家睇到呢條影片,其實 32 居民嘗試啓動或者運用呢啲失效嘅防火措施其實都耽誤咗佢哋逃離現場嘅時間。接下 33 嚟,我想講一講火警警報器即係警鐘當日嘅情況,據資料顯示,火災期間只有宏新閣C 34

Evidential Hearing in relation to fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po

A Court Reporting Transcript by Epiq 21

座同埋宏仁閣A 座有火警鐘被啓動。物業管理公司ISS 嘅員工林文恩(音)先生,係佢 1 嘅口供裏邊指出,當他知道發生火災嘅時候,佢發現咗打破其實嗰個消防按手嗰玻璃其 2 實無法操作之後咧,佢就係消防泵房啓動咗宏仁閣手動主開關掣,聽見宏仁閣嘅消防鍾 3 係響起嘅。佢跟住去咗宏仁閣同宏新閣嘅加壓泵房,啓動相關樓宇嘅手動開關主掣,先 4 係宏道閣、後係宏新閣,他成功啓動咗宏仁閣同埋宏新閣嘅消防警鐘。但係並未能夠啓 5 動宏道閣嘅消防警鐘,之後佢嘗試去宏建閣啓動消防警鐘嘅時候,可能因為當時火勢嘅 6 情況,佢被一名警員阻止。可以留意到嘅就係從林文恩先生嘅證據睇到咧,林先生介入 7 之前,其實佢到訪嗰個3 棟樓宇嘅消防警鐘嘅主開關掣係處於關閉嘅狀態。至於宏新閣 8 嘅火警警報系統嗰個警鐘嘅啓動時間咧,我哋知道嗰個啓動時間唔可能早於3 點20 分 9 嘅,因為係閉路電視嗰個錄音我哋可以知道,當時就聽唔到消防嘅警鐘。另外都有證人 10 提供證據顯示,宏新閣嗰個警鐘喺3 點23 分之後某個時段係曾經運作嘅,我哋有一名 11 係姓曾嘅先生嘅電話記錄啦,佢話佢當日喺晏晝3 點23 分,屋企人打畀佢,佢就知道 12 有個火警嘅情況,佢同屋企人講唔好驚,返入去嗰單位嗰度,拎番單位嘅地契同銀行存 13 摺。有啲溝通話叫佢哋返去喇,但係當時嘅證據顯示,佢就係拎緊嘢嘅時候宏新閣嘅警 14 鐘先至響起嘅,所以嗰個時間點從呢個證據裏邊我哋可以睇到。就宏仁閣嘅警鐘有冇啓 15 動,另一座咧,有啲互相矛盾嘅證據嘅,我哋掌握到多名宏仁閣嘅住户嘅證據,就表示 16 咗佢哋係聽到有火警鐘嘅,呢個同林文恩先生嘅證據相同,但係我哋都有警方提供一啲 17 WhatsApp 嘅證據,就顯示當日居民喺3 點27 分嘅時候,當時先係聽到宏仁閣嘅火警警 18 鐘。然而消防處嘅證據顯示,其實當日下午4 點去測試宏仁閣嘅火警警報系統嘅時候, 19 其實係啓動唔到嘅,我哋之後會喺聆訊證據階段進一步探討呢個情況。至於其他嘅大 20 廈,其實好清楚咁樣睇到火災當日係冇警鐘嘅,我哋掌握到多名住户嘅證據咧,都係不 21 約而同咁講佢哋嘗試啓動大廈嘅火警警鐘,但係未曾成功啓動。我哋都睇過啱啱15 樓宏 22 昌佢哋都嘗試啓動警鐘嘅影片喇。而家有證據顯示,除咗林先生成功咁啓動咗兩座大廈 23 嘅警鐘,其實其他全部都係未能正常運作或者被關閉,原因係因為各大廈嘅消防間泵房 24 嗰主要嘅開關制當時係被關閉,至於各承建商同相關人士喺呢個範疇嘅責任問題,我哋 25 稍候會作出進一步嘅陳詞。喺離開呢一個範疇之前,我想都提一提,就係我哋亦都將會 26 與消防處探討,如果火警個主制未被開關,火警警鐘嗰個正常運作係咪有可能做到咧? 27 技術上高係點樣嘅咧?呢哋題目消防處畀到啲答案我哋。接下嚟,主席、兩位,我想概 28 述一下我哋收到相關消防處當日應變嘅證據,當時佢哋係點樣部署,喺收到第一個電話 29 之後。正如我哋今朝聽到喇,喺2 點50 分收到第一個999 嘅求助電話,2 點51 分7 部 30 消防車被派往宏福苑,包括1 部嘅油壓升降台、3 部泵車、2 部搶救車同一部37 米嘅雲 31 梯,佢哋分別來自大埔、沙田同埋馬鞍山嘅消防局。根據宏福苑接報火警嘅標準應變, 32 派出咗4 部嘅消防車。而係宏福苑呢個特別嘅情況,因為佢做緊維修工程,所以消防處 33 其實好早已經啓動咗應變計劃,其實係派多咗兩部嘅,即係本來應該派4 部。而當時亦 34

Evidential Hearing in relation to fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po

A Court Reporting Transcript by Epiq 22

都係因為佢哋知道消防喉轆同消防接駁口停用,當時已經加咗一部泵車。嗱,我哋見到 1 影片裏邊上述消防車輛其實係2 點56 分到3 點01 分佢哋陸續抵達咗現場,喺2 點54 2 分消防處就額外派出咗5 部嘅消防車。喺2 點56 分首批消防員抵達宏昌閣4 號同5 號 3 起火地點嘅時候,其實嗰個火勢已經去到10 樓咁高。同日嘅3 點02 分,我哋知道個火 4 警被升為三級,有關3 點11 分,即係大概9 分鐘嘅情況,之後嘅情況我哋可以睇到呢 5 條片,大家播呢條片大家都可以睇到當時消防車到達現場同埋喺有關嘅位置(播放短 6 片)。大家可以見到其實當時除咗消防車分佈咗喺街道嗰度,喺3 點12 分其實已經有 7 向火場啓動咗灌救。喺3 點34 分大火升為四級,有三部雲梯喺下晝5 點鐘,喺大埔 8 道、我們見到大埔道對開嗰火場、向火場噴水(播放短片)。大家知道喺當日嘅6 點22 9 分大火升為五級,呢個係喺2008 年以嚟香港首宗嘅五級火。消防處嘅證據指出,直至 10 晚上10 時30 分,消防處共派出咗174 部消防車輛同埋47 部支援車輛,涉及989 名消 11 防員,呢個數字係五級火派出人員數目嘅9 倍。當時警方亦都係被派往現場協助,首批 12 警員係晏晝2 點59 分到達現場。至於應急求助電話嚟講,警方同消防處嘅證據顯示, 13 係11 月26 日,佢哋共接獲406 宗與火災有關嘅999 電話求助。接獲最多999 電話求助 14 嘅時段係晏晝3 點到4 點,共有111 宗。係整個火災期間,消防處總共處理咗373 宗嘅 15 獨立求助,當中有59 人獲獎,同埋喺現場移走咗100 具遺體。我哋喺聽證會會進一步 16 探討上述嘅事項,但係目前有一啲值得關注嘅範疇希望大家會留意。首個關注嘅範疇涉 17 及疏散同埋住户獲通知火警嗰個方法、嗰方式,我哋審閲咗大概1,400 個住户向警方提 18 交嘅問卷,喺火災當日大概有450 個單位裏面超過100 個單位即係20%,20%係由鄰居首 19 次告知有火警。而約有130 個單位,即係大概25%係由家人首次通知有火警,另外有大 20 概100 個單位,即係25%嘅住户係親眼目擊火警或者爆裂嘅聲音,或者聞到煙味先至知 21 道有火警。最後只係有40 名住户透過火警鐘得悉火警,有30 名嘅住户係透過消防車的 22 警笛聲得知有火警。喺證據裏面亦都顯示管理公司ISS 曾經使用呢個擴音嘅喇叭通知所 23 有住户要疏散。呢個做法喺宏仁同埋宏道閣之間區域嘅進行,但並未有喺其他樓宇嗰度 24 用呢個措施。我哋睇過450 名、450 份問卷裏面,其實只有1 名住户表示佢係透過呢啲 25 揚聲器獲知有火警。喺市民或者傳媒裏面亦都提出過一個問題,就係政府係咪應該使用 26 緊急警示系統,向市民嘅流動電話、我哋嘅手提電話發放呢個緊急嘅信息?大家可能記 27 得喺疫情嘅時候,可能我們在座每一位都收過、記得收過呢個信息。政府回應“呢件事 28 件唔符合啓用緊急事件嘅標準。”我哋係聽證會嘅過程裏邊都會探討相關嘅理由,呢個 29 係咪合理?同埋有冇其他方法可以讓住户尤其係宏昌閣以外樓宇的住户喺早啲嘅時間獲 30 知有火災,同埋喺早啲嘅時間可以疏散。第二個我想提出要關注嘅範疇係涉及緊急求助 31 電話嘅處理。剛才大家聽過幾個緊急求助電話嘅錄音,我哋喺999 電話錄音裏邊得知當 32 市民打999 同埋提及有火災嘅時候,警方係會同消防處嗰邊做一個三方電話會議,大家 33 都聽到頭先嘅錄音裏邊有轉駁去消防處嘅情況。證據顯示喺火災初期,消防處求助中心 34

Evidential Hearing in relation to fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po

A Court Reporting Transcript by Epiq 23

理所當然係接到大量嘅電話,有啲求助電話其實係等咗4 分鐘都係冇被接聽,呢個當然 1 對嗰救火嘅工作或者疏散係有影響。第三個關注嘅範疇係涉及實際嗰滅火嘅過程,當 2 然,有人質疑我哋香港嘅滅火資源係咪足夠啦?尤其是我哋最高嘅雲梯係得58 米,呢個 3 只係去到宏福苑樓宇高度嘅一半。喺當日係咪應該派出更加多雲梯去救火?呢個當然係 4 一個疑問。尤其是我哋睇到火場大部分火屑嘅大部分數量其實係遠多於當時救緊火水柱 5 嘅數量,就呢方面,消防處嘅證供係會相當關鍵。主席,容許我用多幾分鐘去完成最後 6 一方面,今早最後一方面嘅陳詞。今早最後一個議題係一個比較沉重嘅議題,關於消防 7 員何偉豪先生,何先生嘅罹難令到大家相當痛心,我哋都用呢個機會對佢再一次致敬, 8 表揚佢喺執行任務期間英勇殉職。我哋其實係掌握到有關何偉豪先生最後喺當時嗰個行 9 蹤嘅一啲資料,基本嘅事實應該係相當清楚嘅。消防員何偉豪當時喺37 歲,佢駐守沙田 10 消防局,隸屬世昌九隊(音)。其實佢係首批派往宏福苑嘅消防員之一。當日沙田世昌 11 九隊喺2 點51 分被派往宏福苑,佢哋喺10 分鐘之後到達現場。我哋有一段片係、可以 12 睇到其實係抵達現場之後,何偉豪同埋兩名同事被派往宏昌閣2701 單位處理一個救援 13 嘅。喺前往嗰個單位嘅途中咧,佢哋係經過咗宏泰閣嗰個單車棚。我哋喺、我哋喺CCTV 14 睇到圈咗紅色就是當日,我們而家會睇到CCTV 片段拍攝嘅地方。我哋喺晏晝3 點13 分 15 20 秒睇到,我哋見到有消防員喺大概嗰個時間經過,再有消防員,嗱,我哋頭先見到最 16 後一名消防員係喺15 時13 分50 秒就跟住咗佢哋嘅同事,跟住係向右轉嘅。跟住我如 17 果去到13 點(口誤),15 點15 分,我哋見到一名消防員走入畫面,我哋相信呢個係剛 18 才片段裏面第三名消防員,呢位應該係何偉豪。跟住喺閉路電視嘅片段,我哋都睇到喺 19 當時咧,係有一名消防員,大家見到佢左手手持一個鐵錘進入升降機,在頭上高會睇到 20 有一個記號寫住“ST”,呢個代表沙田。佢當時係喺…大家稍候會睇到佢係宏泰閣25 21 樓離開升降機。喺呢度我哋可以去釐清其實係有三部𨋢嘅,宏福苑,分別係3 層停一停 22 嘅,即係第一部就係3 樓,第二部就係(English Spoken)4 樓,係咁樣去安排。根據 23 消防處嘅證據,我哋頭先見到何消防員嘅影像應該係我哋揾到、見到佢最後嘅影像嚟 24 嘅。我哋知道根據其實滅火操作嘅規定,消防員係唔會直接乘搭升降機去求助嗰個樓 25 層,因為可能呢個會造成危險。我哋頭先提到佢係收到27 樓求助,所以佢喺25 樓嗰度 26 離開咗有關升降機,呢個係完全符合當時嘅守則嘅。有關嘅情況似乎係何消防員其實係 27 當時以為自己係正在前往宏昌閣27 樓處理求助,但係實際上其實因為當時嘅情況混亂, 28 佢係去咗宏泰閣,喺宏泰閣嘅25 樓離開。我哋之後知道嘅就係大概係喺3 點22 分,即 29 係我哋頭先見到嗰個影像嘅7 分鐘之後,就傳出咗呢個搶救嘅信號,根據證據顯示,當 30 時何偉豪喺佢嘅通信系統裏面話“(English Spoken),我係沙田世昌救護隊員18469 31 何偉豪,我而家被困喺30 樓。”佢當時係講唔到佢喺邊座大廈嘅30 樓,呢個當然亦都 32 造成一啲嘅困難。喺同日嘅3 點55 分,他被發現喺宏泰閣大堂外空闊嘅地方,隨後被 33 送往威爾士親王醫院,佢係同日嘅4 點41 分證實死亡。消防員何偉豪被發現嘅時候佢 34

Evidential Hearing in relation to fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po

A Court Reporting Transcript by Epiq 24

仍然戴着頭盔同埋着住制服,佢嘅左手手套同埋消防靴當時係唔見咗嘅。當時佢並未戴 1 有呼吸器同埋面罩,頭先大家見到佢手中嗰個鐵錘亦都唔喺佢身邊,佢制服有多處明顯 2 燒傷嘅痕跡。佢嘅左手手套、呼吸器同埋嗰個面罩,之後喺31 樓嘅升降機大堂被發現, 3 嗰個位置係喺一個截斷咗嘅梯嗰個地方嘅,即係喺一個、喺一個已經…應該係喺室外嘅 4 棚架,而當時嗰棚架已經損毀咗㗎喇。佢嘅靴之後喺宏泰閣嘅其他位置被發現,但係其 5 實已經被燒到爛曬喇。驗屍報告顯示:其實佢吸入咗大量嘅一氧化碳,全身亦都有多處 6 嘅燒傷、割傷,同埋有骨折。我哋現階段其實確定唔到佢最終點解會被發現喺宏泰閣大 7 堂外邊嘅空曠地帶,但係我哋可以核實嘅事實就係當日嘅3 點15 分佢係25 樓,22 分佢 8 去到30 樓,亦都曾經去到31 樓。當時我哋知道其實22 分宏泰閣高層嘅情況已經係相 9 當惡劣,因此最可能發生嘅情況係消防員何偉豪喺、當時喺惡劣嘅情況之下除低咗呼吸 10 器同埋手套,打破31 樓嘅窗户,嘗試喺嗰一度離開,最後係墮樓身亡。對於佢嘅離世, 11 當然係我哋呢一個調查嘅範圍裏邊,係證據嘅核實裏邊會不會可能會作出一啲事實嘅釐 12 定?當時佢嘅遭遇,我們再次向消防處、向佢個家人表達我哋嘅慰問。三位,呢個可能 13 係一個合適嘅時間作出我哋中午午飯嘅休息。 14 陸啟康法官:我諗我哋會完咗今朝嘅聽證會,我哋下晝再開始喇。咁我諗我哋今朝都相當之沉 15 重,即係睇到好多當時案發、即係重新重組呢件事,但我希望大家認同我哋好認真去, 16 同埋大家都睇到我哋調查範圍係好廣泛,包括係當時嘅應對措施同埋嗰個火勢蔓延嘅措 17 施。所以有啲證據雖然我哋而家會造成一啲困擾,但係我哋都有需要將呢啲事實攞番出 18 嚟,亦都我希望各位亦都同意咧,我哋嘅調查真係全面同埋我哋真係公開嘅。咁但係呢 19 個亦都會有問題出來,會造成對大家可能有啲困擾,我希望大家都要勇敢睇番我哋還原 20 嘅事實,呢個係我哋委員會嘅責任,所以我希望大家都可以勇敢咁去面對番,然後我哋 21 會盡力去揾番事發嘅原因。我哋下晝,你哋需唔需要多啲時間食飯? 22 杜淦堃資深大律師:(搖頭) 23 陸啟康法官:唔需要,2 點15 分。 24

25 13 時07 分聆訊押後 26 14 時17 分聆訊恢復 27

28 陸啟康法官:係,請吖杜資深大律師繼續。 29 杜淦堃資深大律師:主席、兩位委員,我哋今日下午將會集中討論火災中各方嘅責任同埋角色。 30 特別係有關維修工程係咪符合相關法律同埋規例?有關工程係咪受到充分監督以確保妥 31 善遵從相關嘅規定?以及現有關於建築安全同埋標準嘅監管制度係咪足夠?喺考慮呢啲 32 問題嘅時候,我諗當時嘅情況係需要去重複一次。喺大火嘅當日,大家都會明白到宏福 33 苑嘅居民其實已經被棚網、被髮泡膠遮住嘅大廈裏面生活咗18 個月,有關棚網嘅問題、 34

Evidential Hearing in relation to fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po

A Court Reporting Transcript by Epiq 25

有關發泡膠嘅問題,同埋有關工地工人吸煙嘅問題,其實佢哋已經多次向有關方面投 1 訴,我哋陣間會睇到可能有一啲當時嘅投訴記錄啦,有一啲佢哋上載咗喺社交媒體佢哋 2 自己做嘅測試啦,我諗我哋要將自己掟喺佢哋嘅立場去睇一睇當時佢哋嘅投訴係咪合 3 理,同時有關部門嘅處理手法。當然每個部門有佢哋自己要考慮嘅因素,佢哋稍候亦都 4 有充分嘅機會去就佢哋嘅立場作出辯解。大家記得喺指示聆訊嘅時候,我哋曾經指出, 5 根據我哋嘅初步分析,已經見到喺火災裏面揭露咗一系列唔可以接受同埋唔可以忽視嘅 6 系統性問題。喺今日嘅開案陳詞裏面,我哋就會喺以下各方面涉及系統性嘅違規同埋系 7 統性嘅缺失去探討相關嘅證據,而主要嘅範疇包括:一、工地吸煙;二、建築物料,包 8 括棚架同埋發泡膠;三、消防裝置包括火警警告系統,消防栓以及消防喉轆系統;以及 9 四、逃生樓梯,頭先我哋見到所謂生口嘅裝置。以上各項嘅違規同埋缺失係咪導致今次 10 重大傷亡嘅主因?委員會有啲咩建議?當然要依賴、依賴專家證據去作出進一步嘅分 11 析。而喺及後嘅階段,專家亦都會出席聆訊去解釋佢哋嘅觀點。我們已經提及咗係火警 12 調查工作小組嘅初步看法就係火警的源頭有可能係煙頭導致嘅意外引致,雖然我哋喺現 13 階段冇辦法確定係咪由煙頭引起,但係工地吸煙嘅問題亦都係一個重要的議題。正如我 14 頭先所講,宏福苑嘅居民多番投訴,有關嘅問題一直未受到妥善嘅處理。證據顯示雖然 15 承建商曾經訂立禁止吸煙嘅規定,但相關嘅規定明顯未得到遵守。嗱,我哋可以睇一睇 16 其實工地裏面的的確確喺有一啲圖片顯示張貼咗一啲禁止吸煙嘅標誌,並且亦都列明咗 17 違規嘅處理方法,第一,首次違規係罰款1,000 元,同埋警告一次。第二次違規者將會 18 被解僱嘅。亦都有證據顯示宏業曾經向二、三判強調,佢哋務必令到啲工人明白工地吸 19 煙嘅危險,同埋工地嘅嚴禁吸煙嘅,大家見到當時一啲WhatsApp 嘅記錄啦,同埋當時 20 有啲證據顯示可能有人被罰款。除咗宏業或者鴻毅去執行工地禁止吸煙嘅規定,我哋探 21 討嘅有關嘅資料亦都睇到咧物業管理公司ISS 責任嘅問題,根據ISS 嘅保安手冊第二章 22 A2 條,即係有關文件嘅第6 頁“保安人員巡查大樓嘅其中一個職責係負責防止及偵測潛 23 在嘅火警危險。”對於ISS 喺禁煙問題上高嘅證據,都係佢哋提供嘅證人供詞裏邊有以 24 下嘅解釋,我哋睇到鄭紫盈(音)女士嘅證人陳述書裏面第36、48 至51 段喺有提到以 25 下嘅事情嘅。第一,如果ISS 獲居民有關就吸煙有投訴嘅話咧,佢嘅職員會通知宏業, 26 就由宏業跟進投訴;喺投訴登記簿裏邊我們而家見到,我們可以見到實際嘅情況都係如 27 佢哋所述咁樣。如果ISS 職員發現有工人吸煙,佢哋會要求有關工人立即停止,同時 28 ISS 亦都會張貼告示將有關規定係再一次咁去提醒大家。鄭女士嘅證人陳述書亦都提到 29 值得關注嘅一點,就係透露咗ISS 嘅職員其實早已知悉工地裏邊嘅維修工程嘅人員其實 30 係有持續吸煙嘅情況,有關嘅問題其實喺多次嘅工程會議上高都有被反覆咁去討論。而 31 事實上我哋掌握到嘅證據亦都睇到,工地禁止吸煙嘅規定其實喺好多時候都冇被遵守 32 嘅,嗱,我哋睇過係有關天井、瓦礫裏邊發現嘅煙頭,我哋都睇到閉路電視見到有人食 33 煙喇,亦我哋可以睇到,除此之外亦都有一系列顯示居民投訴嘅記錄嘅。我而家想播放 34

Evidential Hearing in relation to fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po

A Court Reporting Transcript by Epiq 26

嘅就係…嗱,呢啲係喺社交媒體上面居民上載嘅影片、膠片,顯示工人喺棚架外面,即 1 係呢啲係由佢哋屋頂影出嘅棚架見到有人食煙。跟着有啲居民亦都拍攝咗一啲影片,顯 2 示工地係有工人喺棚架外面食煙嘅(播放短片)。另外,正如江長髮(音)先生嘅證人 3 陳述書所講咧,宏福苑嘅居民曾經喺佢哋嘅Facebook 羣組,一個叫做「宏福苑居民交 4 流羣組」,以及與宏業嘅Facebook 羣組投訴工地吸煙嘅問題,江先生係第11 屆同12 5 屆法團嘅成員,大家可以見到相關嘅記錄。有關嘅投訴當然唔係淨係喺呢一啲嘅層面, 6 其實亦都有上達政府尤其係勞工署。其中一個例子,我哋見到投訴係通過勞工署網上職 7 業安全同埋健康平台提交,呢個係2024 年7 月20 日。如果我哋睇投訴嘅第2 頁,你會 8 見到“建築工人於工作期間吸煙,枉顧消防安全條例,置大廈居民安全之不理。”第4 9 頁,其實佢哋係夾咗有啲工人吸煙嘅膠片,我哋唔需要再睇啦。勞工署亦都其實喺以下 10 嘅日期接獲咗有關施工工程係、工人喺棚架吸煙嘅進一步嘅投訴,其實係非常之多嘅, 11 舉例我哋見到就係2024 年開始,8 月1 號、14 號、10 月16 號、10 月18 號、10 月19 12 號,到2025 年2 月24 號,4 月30,到去年嘅11 月11 日、12 日都係有提交嘅。另外 13 房屋署… 14 陸啟康法官:杜大律師,你遲啲係會有一個列表,將呢個啲投訴過? 15 杜淦堃資深大律師:其實已經有一個列表㗎喇,不過因為時間關係我哋冇… 16 陸啟康法官:不緊要,呢啲唔需要而家畀我睇。 17 杜淦堃資深大律師:可以打出來,其實已經有呢個列表㗎喇。喺房屋署獨立調查組,我哋及後 18 會、會有好多時間都有提到嘅ICU 呢個組織里邊,佢哋都接獲咗多宗有關工人係棚架吸 19 煙嘅投訴,證據顯示喺24 年嘅8 月、10 月,到25 年嘅2 月、去到6 月都係陸續有投 20 訴。警方亦都有向我哋提供咗佢哋喺宏業同埋佢哋嘅分判商之間嘅WhatsApp 羣組裏邊 21 檢取到嘅記錄。記錄顯示喺自2024 年7 月起,係一年半嘅時間裏面,喺羣組裏面嘅對 22 話有超過80 次係提到地盤有工人吸煙,有人投訴,提醒工人唔可以吸煙呢個信息,平均 23 每個禮拜多過一次。事實上喺火警嘅當日下晝2 點45 分,宏業同鴻毅之間嘅一個 24 WhatsApp 羣組裏邊亦都流傳咗一段顯示宏盛閣樓梯梯間有大量煙頭嘅影片(播放短 25 片)。為咗瞭解我哋啱啱提到呢啲投訴嘅情況,我諗首先,我哋想向委員會去陳述就係 26 有關工地吸煙相關嗰個規管架構。根據建築地盤安全條例,即係香港法例第59(I)章 27 第53(1)條“勞工署始終有權發出書面嘅命令,禁止喺任何地盤裏面吸煙或者使用無 28 遮蓋嘅燈火。”易燃其實是指地盤裏存有易然液體,例如天拿水或者油漆,或者任何喺 29 勞工署署長判斷下涉及火警危險嘅物質或者物品嘅時候,勞工署先會發出有關嘅命令。 30 勞工署署長其實從未就宏福苑發出過呢啲禁煙令。勞工署其中一位證人李萬邦(音)喺 31 佢嘅證人陳述書第44 段中亦都好坦率咁講出發出呢啲《禁煙令》其實係相當罕見。勞工 32 署另一名證人林秀青女士喺佢嘅證人陳述書嘅第96 段中表明:宏福苑嘅吸煙問題未達致 33 發出《禁煙令》嘅門檻。勞工署就有關吸煙投訴嘅跟進先後有16 次去到宏福苑進行調查 34

Evidential Hearing in relation to fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po

A Court Reporting Transcript by Epiq 27

嘅,值得留意嘅就係喺16 次調查入面,勞工署人員從未表示見到有工人喺棚架上高…唔 1 好意思,佢哋表示咗從未見過工人喺棚架上高吸煙嘅情況,佢哋亦都多次作出結論,係 2 指有關吸煙嘅投訴未能成立,原文係英文嘅“(English Spoken)”。有幾個例子我想 3 大家去睇一睇嘅,我哋睇到譬如以2024 年7 月20 日投訴為例,勞工署喺7 月22 日係 4 曾經派員到場巡查嘅,嗰次調查係勞工署內部嘅備忘錄裏邊我哋睇到咧,當中記錄咗有 5 關調查人員巡查時候嘅觀察同埋發現,如果我哋睇第三段你會睇到“(English 6 Spoken)”,如果睇第4 頁你會見到個記錄,基本上嚟講就係話佢哋喺巡查嘅期間冇發 7 現有工人喺地盤食煙喇,喺被投訴位置冇發現煙頭喇,地盤裏邊未有發現易燃物質或者 8 物料,喺現階段淨係進行緊棚架嘅工程,而該工程係唔需要使用易燃物料物質喇。同埋 9 佢哋都提到,其實地盤入邊都配備着滅火筒同埋消防喉。個報告就因此認為個投訴未能 10 成立,而喺建議用口頭嘅方式回覆,投訴人亦被記錄為對回覆基本上滿意。大家見到 11 “(English Spoken)”,值得提醒嘅係投訴人其實係提供咗一張工人實際喺棚架上高 12 吸煙嘅照片嘅,雖然勞工署嘅人員未必係親眼睇到食煙,但當然呢個唔代表工人冇人吸 13 煙喇。針對另一宗投訴,勞工署喺2024 年8 月8 日亦都去咗宏福苑進行咗巡查,呢一 14 次勞工署林秀清女士亦都係致函畀投訴人,大家可以睇到呢個電郵嘅內容,而大家可能 15 睇到最尾嗰段,裏面咁講嘅“(English Spoken)勞工署係有責任執行(English 16 Spoken)的職業安全同埋系統條例,以及工廠及工業經營條例,以及有關僱主條例去確 17 保員工嘅安全同埋職業健康,但係以上嘅法例並不適合公共安全嘅事宜,如果任何關於 18 公共安全嘅事項請聯絡有關部門進行跟進。”喺引述咗有關條例之後,佢哋嘅講法係話 19 佢哋當然要保障僱員係工作期間嘅職業安全同埋健康啦,但公眾安全事項唔係上述法規 20 嘅範圍,所以有關呢啲問題請聯絡相關部門。當然,林女士就冇明確指出去邊一個部門 21 度跟進啦,事實上到目前為止咧,其實我哋都唔係可以好清楚咁講得出有邊個部門喺記 22 錄上高係有承擔責任嘅。例如係2024 年7 月22 日,勞工署就將早前宏福苑吸煙嘅投訴 23 咧轉交咗畀消防處,亦都特別註明呢啲投訴係屬於公眾安全投訴。嗱,消防處當日就用 24 電郵回覆,就話…大家見到喇“(English Spoken)以上嘅事項並非消防處嘅範疇,請 25 將個案轉到有關嘅部門。”你可以揾有關嘅部門”,嗱,如果勞工署唔處理棚架上高吸 26 煙所帶來嘅公眾安全風險,而消防處亦都唔承擔嘅話,我相信投訴人其實都好難再去跟 27 進。此外咧,其實林女士嘅回覆,當然並未充分反映勞工署事實上喺2024 年8 月8 日 28 後巡查,確定投訴未能成立嘅。我哋可以睇下勞工署巡查嘅結果,大家亦都見到喇,亦 29 都係再一次咁講啦,佢哋話:“揾唔到人食煙,見唔到煙頭,冇可燃物。”咁跟住最尾 30 亦都講,根據管工譚先生所講咧,承建商就訂立咗規則去處理呢啲問題,亦都講咗第一 31 次就罰錢,第二次就唔準員工工作。嗱,呢啲事件連續發生咗幾多次咧?16 次,每一次 32 勞工署巡查之後都係裁定咗吸煙嘅投訴未能成立,令人遺憾嘅係勞工署似乎每一次投 33 訴,每一次嘅處理手法都係相同,而佢哋似乎當時嗰個睇法咧,就係呢個係消防處嘅責 34

Evidential Hearing in relation to fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po

A Court Reporting Transcript by Epiq 28

任喇。當然,我哋消防處嘅態度我哋都睇到喇。嗱,我們雖然唔可以好準確咁係呢個階 1 段講到呢個火警一定係食煙同埋煙頭引起,但係工地吸煙嘅風險我諗係顯而易見嘅,呢 2 個問題當然必須得到妥善嘅解決啦。承建商同政府部門,我相信而家大家都會理解其實 3 喺呢件事件發生之後,當然對於食煙嘅問題有加強監管同埋監督啦,但是呢個喺工地吸 4 煙而導致火災嘅問題其實從來都係一個唔應該同埋唔可以忽視嘅問題。我們樂見政府書 5 面開案陳詞所講,勞工署正在修訂法例去落實建築地盤全面禁煙,並對違規者設立罰 6 款。委員會嘅工作當然要去考量呢一個做法係咪足夠?同埋呢個係咪一個穩妥嘅做法。 7 食煙,我諗我哋講到呢一度,接下落嚟我想探討一下宏福苑呢啲大型維修工程所使用嘅 8 建築物料相關嘅問題,主席你會記得職權範圍規定,委員會係要檢視現行安全標準用料 9 清單是否全面,以及相關嘅驗證同埋檢測制度是否有效。所以現階段我哋要分析呢啲標 10 準係咪的確有不足嘅地方?有關建築材料嘅分類其實可以分為兩類嘅,首先係結構工程 11 完成後嘅樓宇嘅一部、作為樓宇一部分嘅物料,我哋呢啲叫做「永久工程材料」,呢個 12 係第一類。第二類係一啲用於施工,但係唔構成結構本身嘅臨時輔助材料,好似啲棚 13 架、棚網、發泡膠就屬於第二類嘅物料。就永久工程物料亦都係有一個小型同埋非小型 14 工程嘅制度存在嘅。嗱,我哋睇永久物料喇,納入員工結構嘅物料講起,喺小型工程裏 15 面第一類同埋標準非小型工程呢個區分裏邊咧,首先對於標準非小型工程,好似我哋起 16 一座新嘅摩天大廈或者我哋對於一啲主要結構拆卸工程,或者涉及呢啲建築物有重大改 17 動或者加建改動、改建嘅工程,喺呢一方面其實法例係採取咗一啲非常嚴格嘅制度,有 18 關嘅制度或者嗰個叫法、個講法係“(English Spoken)批准及同意嘅制度”。喺呢個 19 制度之下,建築專業人士英文叫做(English Spoken),我們簡稱(English 20 Spoken),同埋註冊承建商(English Spoken),簡稱RLC,佢哋需要制定一啲詳細嘅 21 圖則,明確標示符合所有安全標準嘅主要工程物料喇,我們諗到嘅例子可能係一啲鋼筋 22 嘅結構、混凝土,呢啲圖則係要交畀建築事務監督審核。而承建商係政府正式書面批准 23 圖則同意之前咧,係法律上高係唔應該開工嘅。政府批准圖則而開工之後,法例規定亦 24 都需要剛才提及嘅兩組私人註冊嘅專業人士對工程進行嚴格嘅監督,而且要簽署確認書 25 去確認係符合有關規定嘅。RLC 本身負責實際施工嘅公司啦,實際、實際去進行工程嘅 26 公司啦,註冊專業人士,包括認可專業人士、結構工程師,或者註冊嘅岩土工程師,佢 27 哋亦都需要定期監督工程,去確保承建商係根據有關圖則同根據有關嘅圖則、根據有關 28 嘅安全規定去施工。喺新嘅建築物竣工之後,RLC 同埋(English Spoken)亦都需要去 29 簽署證明書,去聲明其實已經符合咗建築物條例規定,完全按照批准嘅施工圖則同埋確 30 保有關結構係安全嘅。嗱,喺另一邊廂,上述嘅程序可以同一啲我們叫做小型工程監督 31 制度,英文係(English Spoken),去做一個比較。宏福苑呢一個3.3 億嘅樓宇維修工 32 程係屬於MWCS 呢一個工程底下嘅豁免工程,所以其實係可以繞過用於大型嘅標準,我 33 哋頭先所講嗰個批准及同意嘅制度係唔適用嘅。小型工程監督制度係2010 年推出,其 34

Evidential Hearing in relation to fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po

A Court Reporting Transcript by Epiq 29

實嗰目的係想簡化程序,去幫啲業主去解決安全問題啦,同埋快速咁樣去進行、為呢啲 1 小型工程進行審批,其實嗰特點就有以下幾點嘅:第一,承建商唔駛等到建築事務監督 2 批准、去批嗰啲有關的圖則先去開工,呢個係有關嘅建築物使用工程規例裏邊第二至第 3 四條已經講得好清楚。喺呢個小型工程嘅制度下,承建商係提交嘅建築材料嘅選用或者 4 使用咧亦都唔需要經政府嘅批准同埋審核,承建商其實只要透過一啲法定嘅表格同埋用 5 一啲嘅相片、一啲技術嘅圖則向政府作出通知,呢啲文件主要其實用嚟存檔同埋日後隨 6 機抽查去檢驗有關合規嘅。小型工程嘅監管制度其實係依賴承建商嘅自律,私人註冊嘅 7 檢驗人員大家可能係這幾個月大家聽過這個角色“(English Spoken)”,同埋註冊承 8 建商“(English Spoken)”係需要承擔主要責任,確保所有其實嘅物料係冇缺陷啦, 9 同埋遵守建築物條例嘅規定。政府係唔就每一份提交嘅文件進行批准,亦係依靠隨機抽 10 查、審計檢查裏邊嘅方法去處理呢啲問題。其中就包括咗審計基本嘅檢查啦,就係以呢 11 啲文書嘅批核去確保其他有關嘅表格、圖則,或者相片係完整同埋一致。如果政府喺隨 12 機抽樣嘅時候見到一啲唔合規嘅地方,佢哋會發出警告信要求糾正。當然,如果你不理 13 呢啲嘅警告可能會帶嚟檢控。另外還、仲有一類嘅叫做豁免工程,豁免工程就係建築工 14 程裏邊審批程序裏邊最簡單嘅一種。根據建築物條例第41 段(3),如果建築工程係僅 15 在建築物裏邊進行,而唔涉及建築物嘅結構,喺法律上可以被歸類為豁免工程。呢個同 16 小型工程係唔同,業主喺法律上高係無須聘用註冊嘅建築師啦、工程師或者註冊承建商 17 進行工程。承建商亦都唔需要喺工程前,或者工程中或者之後向屋宇署或者ICU 提交任 18 何嘅表格、圖則或者通知嘅。嗱,有呢幾類嘅審批制度同埋工程,我哋睇一睇宏福苑當 19 時嘅情況,喺呢個案例裏面維修工程嘅核心內容包括咗啲乜嘢咧?包括咗拆除現有外牆 20 嘅覆蓋物啦,一些舊嘅瓷磚或者灰泥啦,進行混凝土修復,添加防水層,以及用紙皮石 21 鋪喺建築物嘅外牆。雖然我哋睇緊呢個工程造價高達3.3 億港元,加上呢個工程對建築 22 物同埋有關住户造成非常重大嘅影響,政府其實都係根據檢測人員嘅報告界定咗呢個工 23 程屬於小型工程同埋豁免工程,所以咧有關嘅工程嗰個處理方法係用我剛才解釋嘅小型 24 工程監管制度下的工程去處理。喺呢個制度之下,當然都係要提交有關嘅文件,而喺宏 25 福苑工程一共係收到48 份有效嘅小型工程提交文件,當中分咗做兩類:第一係第二級別 26 嘅小型工程,所謂係「中等風險」,呢類嘅工程涵蓋咗大部分嘅外牆維修工程,承建商 27 就拆除舊有外牆嘅覆蓋物啦,鋪設新嘅紙皮石同埋牆磚,進行一般混凝土嘅修復同埋更 28 換外部排水管呢啲嘅範疇係按照第二級別小型工程嘅規定提交咗相關嘅表格同埋文件 29 嘅。好喇,另外仲有一啲係被界定為第一級小型工程,呢個係屬於高風險嘅。呢個係包 30 括宏福苑樓梯窗嗰個改動項目,我哋見到ICU 為咗宏福苑法定建築、作為佢哋法定建築 31 嘅規管部門,其實嗰個理由係咁樣嘅,因為宏福苑係由房委會興建,係屬於我哋大家都 32 知道嘅“居者有其屋”計劃,即係簡稱居屋。根據建築物條例第41 條(1)(aa),房 33 委會喺興建房屋其實係無須受建築物條例去規管,所以屋宇署,即係(English 34

Evidential Hearing in relation to fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po

A Court Reporting Transcript by Epiq 30

Spoken)並未有參與宏福苑嘅設計同埋施工嘅,一開始。當居屋單位後來喺私人市場轉 1 售嘅時候咧,嗰個單位就會納入建築物條例嘅規管範圍,但係其實喺執法嘅層面,執法 2 嘅職責就唔會因為咁轉咗去屋宇署嗰度,而係繼續由建築事務監督,即係BA 啦去委派獨 3 立審查組,即係ICU 去負責。所以喺宏福苑法定監管呢個問題上高,ICU 仍然係有責 4 任,責任並唔喺屋宇署,佢嘅職責是監督小型工程、處理小型工程提交文件同埋去勘察 5 未經批准嘅建築工程。但係與此同時咧,屋宇署即係BA 仍然負責根據建築物條例提起檢 6 控,以及對註冊嘅檢測人員,即係我哋頭先講嗰啲(English Spoken)同埋註冊承建商 7 進行紀律處分嘅,所以兩個部門係有不同嘅責任。個結果係點咧?個結果就係喺宏福苑 8 呢一個工程裏面,ICU 其實並冇對宏福苑嘅工程進行任何實地嘅檢測,佢哋嘅巡查其實 9 針對於居民就特定事項作出嘅投訴,可能棚網出現咗問題,稍候我哋會睇到啲證據。根 10 據ICU 證據,係施工前工地審查嘅目的、嘅目標每年其實只係25 宗,呢個佔有關小型 11 工程提交嘅總數其實係0.1 個percent。呢一個做法我哋見到其實同屋宇署嘅指引係有 12 相違背嘅地方。喺2023 年屋宇署修訂咗佢哋內部嘅工程監察組手冊,採取咗更加嚴格 13 的做法。佢哋嘅講法係對於負有監督計劃嘅第一級別嘅小型公司,屋宇署係會親自巡查 14 工地同埋隨機抽取案件,至少有20%作出安全檢查。而ICU 嘅證據顯示,屋宇署係未有 15 將呢個重要嘅政策改動,通知ICU。所以ICU 基本上係依照舊有嘅做法繼續履行佢哋嘅 16 職責,似乎佢哋覺得係屋宇署嘅問題。發生咗咩事咧?喺宏福苑大火之後,去年12 月 17 22 日,ICU 就正式咁樣去接獲有關新增嘅檢測通知要求,即係換句話講,喺火災之後大 18 概一個月,ICU 改變咗佢哋嘅做法。呢個顯示咗啲咩咧?呢個顯示咗就承建商就宏福苑 19 嗰個樓梯窗改動,即係第一級別嘅小型工程提交文件嘅時候,屋宇署並唔知道、ICU 並 20 唔知道屋宇署改變咗政策,係要求實地檢測,所以ICU 只係對提交嘅文件進行書面嘅檢 21 測。除咗處理居民投訴之外,佢哋冇去過工地作出檢測。呢一個問題喺邊度?顯而易 22 見。今朝我哋用咗若干嘅時間去討論生口嘅問題,而生口嘅問題就正正喺呢啲窗户改動 23 嘅問題。接住落嚟我哋會討論施工嘅臨時物料監管,唔係一啲永久嘅物料,只係工程中 24 間所使用嘅物料。證據顯示其實喺宏福苑使用嘅物料,其實好多都係具可燃性,竹棚、 25 棚架、木板、一啲腳板、帆布、尼龍帶、發泡膠板。呢啲材料當然稱之為臨時,因為做 26 完之後佢哋會被移走。我哋稍候將會去探討對於棚架使用安全網嗰啲保護板、帆網,塑 27 膠板,相關嘅物料,有關佢哋嘅防火功能嘅有關嘅規定。但係除此之外根據我哋嘅理 28 解,其實冇特定嘅法規去規定喺工地使用嘅臨時物料應該有啲乜嘢防火準則。嗱,雖然 29 冇特定嘅防火標準規管,工地使用嘅臨時物料當然要符合一般嘅安全標準,而呢個一般 30 嘅安全標準係乜嘢咧?喺建築物建造條例,即係香港法例第123(Q)章第八部分,規定 31 要求外牆同埋遮蓋層應該使用一啲唔可燃嘅物料嘅。喺第16 條規定咗承建商喺進行建築 32 工程嘅時候係需要用適當嘅建造方法同埋程序,亦都要採取適當嘅預防措施。如果違反 33 有關嘅條例咧,屋宇署可以採取執法行動,包括根據建築物條例23 條提出停止工程令 34

Evidential Hearing in relation to fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po

A Court Reporting Transcript by Epiq 31

啦,根據有關條例嘅40 條,對註冊承建商或者建築專業人士提起刑事檢控,亦都可以對 1 違規嘅承建商或者專業人士採取一啲紀律處分。特別想提到就係喺40(2)(a)條規 2 定,任何直接參與工程嘅註冊承建商或者專業人士如果允許批准使用任何未妥、欠妥或 3 不符合本條文、條例條文嘅物料咧,呢個係屬刑事罪行。根據第40(2)(b)條嘅規 4 定,若以相當可能導致任何人受傷或財務損毀的危險的方法進行工程,或者批准其他人 5 進行工程,呢個都係即屬違法。我哋認為,其實呢啲條文有理由係適用於具有火警危險 6 嘅施工臨時物料,例如宏業用嚟遮蓋大廈窗嘅發泡膠板。但係就呢個議題,而家睇番當 7 時嘅溝通,政府部門對於法定要求嘅立場似乎係有分歧。我哋睇到屋宇署嘅證人陳述, 8 用一啲可燃嘅發泡膠板大面積咁去遮蓋窗户帶嚟嘅額外火警風險可能係違反法定要求, 9 呢個係屋宇署嘅立場。然而,獨立審查組ICU 嘅立場就係施工用嘅臨時材料,例如呢啲 10 發泡膠板係唔屬於建築工程,而且對呢啲嘅臨時物料咧,嘅防火性咧係冇法例嘅嚴格規 11 定。我哋之後會特別就發泡膠呢個議題進行分析,我哋都會對ICU 呢一個立場進行分 12 析。至於消防處嘅立場,消防處嘅講法就係佢哋嘅職權係僅限於監管主動消防安全範 13 疇,即係例如呢個噴水嘅防火系統、警報器、消防喉呢啲嘅火警時會啓動嘅系統。消防 14 處嘅講法就係屬於呢啲被動嘅安全範圍嘅事項,即係透過建築物本身嘅設計,或者構造 15 發揮防火功能呢一方面咧,呢啲應該係屬於屋宇署或者ICU 嘅職權範疇。綜觀以上三個 16 立場,難免令人感到憂慮,如果部門之間嘅立場不同,亦都冇部門覺得呢一個係佢哋嘅 17 責任嘅話,咁投訴人應該點樣去處理佢哋嘅、點樣去投訴?而對於佢哋嘅投訴未得到理 18 會,佢哋可以點樣跟進咧?嗱,未受規管嘅臨時施工物料嘅範圍當然唔係淨係發泡膠, 19 可能仲包括竹棚、木板、腳板,同埋尼龍帶。大家係今朝播放嘅片斷裏邊見到,其實係 20 大火時候全部呢啲物料都係被燒着,而且對於火警嘅發展係有影響,稍候專家會對各種 21 物料進行分析。發展局亦都有佢哋嘅立場,我哋可以睇到發展局嘅回覆就係勞工署同埋 22 屋宇署就表示“目前就冇任何規例或者指引,規定竹結構嘅固定方式,工作平台上使用 23 嘅通道及腳板必須符合特定嘅防火標準”,委員會要考慮呢個情況係咪理想,甚至乎係 24 咪可以接受。上述嘅臨時建築材料其實基本上喺每一個維修,香港而家每一個維修工程 25 都有被使用,喺一啲大型住宅嘅維修工程,大家都可以隨處可見繼續咁用緊咁樣嘅材 26 料,如果政府部門好似ICU 咁認為呢啲材料喺使用上高完全唔受消防安全框架規管,咁 27 樣再出現問題嘅時候,我哋應該去揾邊個部門去問責咧?除此之外專家亦都指出,喺宏 28 福苑翻新工程裏面用咗很多臨時嘅施工措施嘅。我哋嗱,頭先睇過一系列嘅物料,基本 29 上縱觀政府嘅專家同埋我哋同專家嘅溝通,每一種物料當然有佢嘅特性,但係每一種物 30 料都可以稱之為可燃嘅物料,喺火勢嘅蔓延裏邊有獨特的角色。我想係呢度強調,當然 31 社會里面有好多討論,譬如棚網同竹棚嘅討論比較多啦,我哋唔係話因為物料本身係可 32 燃,委員會就一定要作出一個結論,就係“我哋要禁用”,例如香港有好多翻新嘅工程 33 係使用竹棚,呢係一個普遍嘅做法,咁唔代表每一個工程都有同樣嘅火警風險,每一個 34

Evidential Hearing in relation to fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po

A Court Reporting Transcript by Epiq 32

工程嘅規模唔一樣,獨特嘅地方亦都可能唔同。隨着火警風險之外,亦都有好多其他因 1 素喺現實世界裏面大家會考慮嘅。經濟效益啦、成本啦,同埋有冇其他嘅方法去繼續使 2 用或者保留有關嘅物料?例如其實好多人都提過係咪一定淨係用竹棚咧?會唔會有些情 3 況你係可以金屬棚,但係金屬棚某些部位變為竹棚呢?呢個做法喺香港嘅工程裏面係有 4 使用嘅。所以就可燃物料帶嚟嘅風險,同埋審視相關嘅風險,去減睇有關風險嘅措施, 5 我哋相信委員會會根據專家嘅證據喺稍候嘅時間作出進一步嘅分析。接住落嚟,我想講 6 一講棚網嘅問題,大家都知道宏福苑好似同好多被維修、進行維修工程嘅大廈一樣,被 7 竹棚同埋綠色嘅棚架包圍,聽證會後續嘅部分我哋會聽取專家嘅意見去考慮相關可燃性 8 嘅問題。但係重點同埋出發點可能就會係相關嘅法規。我哋首先想審視有關嘅法律同埋 9 規則,因為棚架、棚架嘅保護網長期以嚟其實都係受到監管,防火嘅功能亦都係監管嘅 10 一部分。屋宇署其實係制定咗相關嘅規則,主要嘅法定文件有以下幾個:第一,屋宇署 11 喺1995 年5 月發出咗兩份作業備考,分別就係認可人士及註冊結構工程師備考,佢哋 12 叫做(English Spoken),同埋(English Spoken),明確咁規定咗以膠布覆蓋樓宇 13 外牆嘅時候,膠布必須具耐燃性,並應該儘量避免阻礙有居住樓宇居民嘅通風同埋採 14 光。當以膠布去遮蓋,圍繞樓宇外牆搭建嘅時候應該採用以下嘅預防措施:一,採用耐 15 燃嘅遮布。二,係可能嘅情況下儘快避免用膠布去遮蓋正在進行樓宇維修同埋有人居住 16 嘅樓宇,以免阻礙空氣流通同埋光線嘅照射。而喺另外一個通過函件我們叫做 17 (English Spoken)裏面,有關嘅通告其實係喺海員之家大廈四級大火之後發出嘅,所 18 以呢個係比較新,2023 年3 月二十幾號發出嘅通道,呢個進一步規定咗“所有為遮蓋其 19 外牆而裝設嘅保護網、保護膜、防水油布同埋塑膠帆布均應具備適當嘅阻燃特性。”並 20 且係列出咗有關嘅標準嘅。直至到大家會記得係宏福苑大火之前嘅幾個禮拜,其實我哋 21 喺中環華懋大廈亦都發生咗另一宗比較大嘅棚架火警嘅,屋宇署喺2025 年10 月21 22 日,即係我哋呢場火警之前大概一個月亦都發出咗另外一份通告函件,指示咗所有承建 23 商立即檢視佢哋嘅工地,確保棚架保護網具有所需嘅阻燃性,以防止火勢蔓延。嗱,呢 24 啲嘅作業備考同埋通告函當然本身唔具備法律效力,佢哋係作為遵守建築物條例同埋建 25 築物建造規則嘅技術指引來嘅。但係唔遵守呢一啲嘅規定咧可能產生一啲法律效果,譬 26 如喺刑事或者民事嘅程序裏面,如果承建商未有遵照屋宇署嘅指引可能會、可能有關嘅 27 違規可能被用嚟作出一啲證據,證明整體上高、專業人士處理有關事情上高有一啲疏 28 忽、失職啦,或者違反一啲具體嘅法律責任。而特別想提到就係屋宇署係舊年10 月21 29 日嗰個通報,即係華懋大火之後嗰一個,佢哋都講咗如果承建商被發現違反有關嘅所制 30 定嘅阻燃標準,佢哋會根據建築物條例採取適當嘅行動,大家見到有關嘅文件。正如我 31 頭先所講,所謂嘅適當行動包括停工令啦,包括有關建築物條例40 條嘅刑事檢控啦,同 32 埋一啲紀律處分嘅。嗱,我哋正如頭先所講,呢啲、處理呢啲投訴同監督嘅問題係屬於 33 ICU 嘅責任,唔係屋宇署嘅責任,但係屋宇署仍然擁有根據建築物條例對呢啲事項違規 34

Evidential Hearing in relation to fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po

A Court Reporting Transcript by Epiq 33

可以作出刑事檢控同埋紀律處分,佢哋嘅權限喺嗰一度。另一方面,勞工署啦,勞工署 1 係規管棚架同埋保護網方面其實亦都承擔一定嘅職責,因為勞工署其實係負責保障工人 2 同埋職業安全,所以勞工署亦都發出過棚架、竹棚架工作安全守則嘅,而喺有關嘅第四 3 版裏面有一個2017 年版,第4.4.4(d)條有咁樣嘅講法:“棚架面上應該裝置適當而 4 且並由延遲燃燒物料造成嘅保護網,如使用油布作為保護膜嘅物料,油布嘅延遲燃燒性 5 質符合英國標準(English Spoken),即係佢哋叫(English Spoken)嘅性能要求, 6 或其他等同嘅國家或者國際標準規定。”所以呢個係有相關嘅監管同埋要求。當然啦, 7 呢一個守則嘅規定其實只係屬於佢哋所講嘅油布,唔係對其他保護網作出嘅規定。但係 8 喺2024 年我哋見到勞工署就更新咗呢個竹棚架工作安全守則,同埋同屋宇署係2023 年 9 嘅3 月21 日發出嘅通告函要求其實係一致嘅,係守則嘅第五版規定,我們見到所有竹 10 棚架上邊嘅保護網、保護膜、防水油布或者塑膠帆布應該具有適當嘅耐燃特質,符合認 11 可嘅標準,當中亦都有提到相關嘅英國標準。相關嘅規定,呢個第五版嘅規定喺2024 12 年5 月可見,但守則嘅第五版喺2024 年10 月19 日先至生效嘅。我哋亦都想指出,喺 13 回應2024 年9 月一封電郵查詢時,勞工署林秀青女士喺10 月4 號曾經有咁樣去回覆 14 嘅,她話:“根據現時勞工署所執行,適用於建築地盤安全條例裏面冇涵蓋關於棚網或 15 者任何物料嘅阻燃標準,棚網發生火災嘅風險相對較低。”林女士嘅證人陳述書現在有 16 呢一個解釋,佢話回覆上述嘅原因係因為直至2024 年10 月4 日咧,頭先我們所睇到嘅 17 竹棚架工作安全守則因為第五版未生效,所以佢就用舊版嘅準則去回覆喇。解釋我哋覺 18 得比較難接受,1995 年5 月開始,其實我哋頭先見到嘅作業備考都規定咗棚架覆蓋物需 19 要有耐然性,單憑缺乏具體標準,認為保護網係無須具耐燃性呢一個邏輯我哋覺得係有 20 問題嘅。而且林女士喺2024 年10 月4 日作出呢個回覆嘅時候,屋宇署唔係2023 年3 21 月已經發出咗通告、發出咗函件,提咗具體嘅阻燃標準咩?再者,佢應該好清楚嘅知道 22 竹棚架工作安全守則,我哋頭先睇到嗰第五版,喺佢回覆之後嘅兩個星期都會生效。 23 嗱,無論如何,雖然安全守則本身冇法律效力,佢哋嘅遵守應該都係由勞工署署長根據 24 工場同埋工業經營條例第7(a)條發出,而根據第7(a)條第4 同埋第5 款,如果承 25 建商違反整體安全法例而被提出檢控,法院可以將佢嘅未遵守嘅行為作為傾向確定其法 26 律責任嘅依據,所以呢個係絕對佢哋嘅、或者佢哋冇遵守相關嘅守則,其實係有法律, 27 喺法律上高係會有效力同埋影響。最後勞工署發現承建商如果違反安全守則,例如如果 28 唔符合、使用唔符合阻燃標準嘅保護網,亦都可以採取法律行動,對於輕微嘅違規佢哋 29 可以用由職業安全主任發出書面通告,嚴重嘅違規勞工署可以發出檢控,指佢哋未能確 30 保一個安全嘅工作環境。喺審視相關嘅條例後,我哋之後嘅時間會去向大家陳處棚網承 31 建商嘅角色,以及勞工署同埋ICU 對棚網進行嘅審查。我哋將會用一個順時序嘅方法去 32 帶大家睇有關嘅證據。主席,我相信你下午想有一個小休,可能呢個係一個適當嘅時 33 間。 34

Evidential Hearing in relation to fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po

A Court Reporting Transcript by Epiq 34

陸啟康法官:我哋休息10 分鐘。 1

2 15 時13 分聆訊押後 3 15 時24 分聆訊繼續 4

5 陸啟康法官:喺未繼續陳詞之前咧,我想做一個時間嘅、即係估計。因為我諗我哋仲有其他嘅、 6 即係涉事方咧,其實係可能…因為我哋要安排證人,咁我想問下其實你估吖、杜資深大 7 律師你仲要用幾耐到咧? 8 杜淦堃資深大律師:我相信聽日,用埋聽日一整日,大部分嘅陳詞係會完成。去到下星期,相信 9 早上可能我要、而家嘅估計,可能我再需要多一個小時。 10 陸啟康法官:嗯,咁其他跟住有各方嘅,嗯,我哋係喇,現階段係政府嗰邊嗰個嘅律師團隊,宏 11 福苑嘅、嗯、以前嘅(English Spoken)啦,就(English Spoken),即係市區重建 12 局、(English Spoken)、ISS 同埋合安,咁你估、我想問你哋嘅陳詞,如果喺嗰日你 13 哋會唔會完得到,你哋會唔會講得多過半個鍾?唔會。 14 孫靖乾資深大律師:係,主席,我諗可能代表政府嗰度咧,我哋可能會需要多少少時間,但係我 15 諗相信都應該係唔會多過一個小時,但我哋儘可能會再少啲啲,如果有需要,即係… 16 陸啟康法官:其他咧?會唔會有啲要諗住多過半個小時口架?如果冇,我諗其實都可能第三日都 17 安排、唔應該安排證人,我哋應該係第四日,好冇吖?咁我哋、我哋無論嗰日我哋幾早 18 完都好啦,我哋就…我哋希望儘量嗰日要完啦,即係完曬開案陳詞,咁就應該係下個星 19 期二,即係下個禮拜四。 20 孫靖乾資深大律師:四。 21 陸啟康法官:咁我哋開始聽證人,好冇?咁我哋咁樣去安排啦,好嗎?Okay,好,請繼續。 22 杜淦堃資深大律師:多謝主席。接下落嚟,我想帶大家睇一睇嘅就係其實承建商本身,其實佢哋 23 對於棚網互燃呢一個題目,佢哋嘅態度係點,佢哋知唔知道自己嘅責任?宏福苑嘅棚架 24 第一階段其實喺2024 年7 月搭建,喺呢個搭建日期之前,其實棚網嘅耐燃性已經最少 25 有兩次嘅會議裏面被討論:第一次係2024 年5 月30 日嘅工程會議裏面,前業主立案法 26 團、ISS、鴻毅同宏業嘅代表都有出席,喺會議裏面,宏業向與會人士表示外牆嘅棚網 27 將採用具耐燃性嘅物料。跟住喺2024 年嘅6 月17 日舉行咗下一次嘅工程會議記錄,呢 28 個記錄尤為重要。大家睇到會議記錄嘅第9 段,當時鴻毅提醒咗宏業必須嚴格遵守屋宇 29 署嘅實務指引APP70 嘅相關要求,並提交棚網嘅耐燃證書,如果情況許可最好喺現場進 30 行棚網嘅耐燃測試。由此可見,其實喺工程嘅初期,宏業已經被提醒棚網必須符合屋宇 31 署實務指引APP70 所訂立嘅耐燃要求。之後第一期嘅工程,即係喺FGH、宏昌、宏盛同 32 宏志閣嘅棚架,有關工程係喺24 年7 月16 日展開。宏業當時就聘用咗盈利豐棚業有限 33 公司作為呢個宏福苑棚架工程嘅二判,每座大廈嘅合約價係港幣315 萬。盈利豐棚業有 34

Evidential Hearing in relation to fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po

A Court Reporting Transcript by Epiq 35

限公司就喺5 月29 日發出一個報價單,大家可以睇到“第三項係列明安裝嘅棚網係阻 1 燃網”。我哋估計頭嗰三個字應該係話“鋪雙層阻燃網,雙砧阻燃網”,所以盈利豐棚 2 業有限公司嘅主要負責人陳耀輝先生,喺佢就本次聆訊裏面提交嘅證人陳述書,其實喺 3 第6 段佢自己都承認,根據同埋宏業嘅合約,三個階段嘅搭棚工程必須包括使用助燃功 4 能(口誤),具助燃功能嘅(口誤),阻燃功能嘅安全網。跟住我哋會轉去睇一睇勞工 5 署同埋ICU 嘅巡查。喺早期政府部門,即係勞工署同埋ICU 其實對棚架進行、係有進行 6 調查,當然,呢啲調查係咪足夠就成疑啦。我哋可以用三次巡查作為例子:第一個例子 7 係勞工署喺2024 年7 月22 號進行嘅調查,根據勞工署嘅林秀青女士證人陳述書,當勞 8 工署代表去現場進行實地巡查嘅時候咧,其實係有要求提供棚網嘅耐燃證書嘅。隨後 9 咧,宏業喺7 月24 日係提供咗有關嘅證書,亦都附上咗,其實當日嘅,佢哋收到嘅送 10 貨單,大家見到有關而家熒光幕上見到嘅文件,其實大家會見到係山東宸旭化纖繩網有 11 限公司,有關嘅棚網係送到去大埔宏福苑。嗱,阻燃證書嘅日期係2024 年嘅1 月8 12 日,上高顯示山東有關公司嘅名稱係,佢哋係申請人,而佢哋亦都係向宏福苑提供棚網 13 嘅公司。大家可能留意到有傳媒早前報道話呢個阻燃證書可能係一個偽造嘅證書,原因 14 係證書上高列出嘅檢測中心名稱,大家可以睇到咧,放大唔到,可以放大睇一睇。大家 15 可以睇到嗰個證書檢測中心嘅名稱係“國家勞動保護用品質量監督檢驗中心”,喺個頂 16 嗰度。但係有關嘅單位其實喺2019 年有報道指已經改咗名做“國家保護用品檢、質量 17 檢測檢驗中心”,所以係由“監督”變咗“檢測”。嗱,至於呢個係咪真係一份偽造嘅 18 文件咧,我哋之後會有證據。勞工署對棚網嘅阻燃性嘅調查,我哋知道係僅限於文件嘅 19 審閲,佢哋未對棚網進行任何實地嘅檢測。佢哋對咗嗰個阻燃證書啦,而勞工署嘅證人 20 係指出,佢哋係缺乏棚網測試標準所須嘅專業知識,佢哋嘅理解就係有關嘅責任咧,嗰 21 個權責係喺屋宇署嗰度。嗱,我哋而家轉一轉去睇下ICU 嘅巡查工作,正如剛剛所講, 22 宏福苑所使用嘅棚網安全係咪符合屋宇署嗰個要求咧,係屬於ICU 嘅職權範疇,而非屋 23 宇署。而ICU 喺2024 年10 月28 日係進行咗一次調查,當日咧,ICU 係對宏福苑其中 24 一座大廈嘅屋頂啦,同埋底層棚網進行調查。參與調查嘅ICU 代表包括高級屋宇保養測 25 量師古小平先生(English Spoken);屋宇保養測量師劉嘉敏小姐,一位(English 26 Spoken)。同埋另外一位譯音李家豪(音)先生,李先生,呢個喺古先生嘅證人陳述書 27 裏面有一一咁列出。ICU 亦都提供有關嘅錄影,我哋將會播放其中一段喺屋頂記錄當時 28 檢測嘅影片畀大家睇。(播放短片)我想我哋再睇一次頭段,我想大家留意時間同埋第 29 一次點火之後,個火係點解會熄?(播放短片)我哋嘅觀察就係棚網被打火機去燒咗大 30 概15 秒之後,着咗火,繼續燒咗10 秒,直至到有人吹熄嗰個火。喺呢一個測試之後, 31 ICU 嘅人員似乎認為棚網係具耐阻燃性嘅。古小平先生喺佢第一份證人陳述書第48 32 (i)段,佢就咁講嘅,佢話“承建商隨後喺屋頂剪咗一塊棚網,疑似較小風力嘅角度性 33 測試”,佢話“首次測試中,觀察到棚網燃燒10 秒後着火,承建商隨後用同一塊棚網進 34

Evidential Hearing in relation to fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po

A Court Reporting Transcript by Epiq 36

行了兩次重測,去證明其耐燃性,負責人冇發現任何問題”,咁我哋可以之後再探討點 1 解會吹熄咗同埋呢個係咪一個問題?我哋睇到嘅印象就係ICU 似乎對呢個首次測試嘅結 2 果並唔感到詫異,亦都有關嘅測試失效亦都未引起佢哋嘅關注。另外值得留意嘅係古先 3 生嘅第一份證人陳述書裏邊係注備5 裏邊提到:“針對棚網所進行嘅快速測試並無任何 4 標準可遵從。”如果係咁,我哋相信呢個係需要糾正嘅問題。同時留意到ICU 喺進行調 5 查,如果係用宏業提供阻燃證書上高嘅標準進行咧,我哋覺得個結果應該係唔符合相關 6 嘅標準嘅。嗱,巡查當日咧,宏業係透過WhatsApp 去向ICU 發放信息嘅。其實佢哋都 7 有畀過、之前喺1 月8 號嗰個阻燃證書,ICU 收到證書嘅副本,標示咗第3 頁第10 項顯 8 示棚網嘅耐燃時間(口誤)係0 秒,續燃時間係0 秒。所謂續燃時間係指規定喺實驗嘅 9 條件下而隨着火源之後咧,燃料繼續燃燒嘅現象。而喺第四欄所標示嘅要求就係續燃時 10 間須少於4 秒。如果根據ICU 提供嘅影像,我哋頭先睇到嗰個續燃時間至少…我哋唔好 11 理有冇人去吹熄佢都有10 秒,所以喺呢個情況之下,繼續燒嘅時間應該會係更長。呢個 12 明顯同宏業提供嗰阻燃證書上高標識嘅結果不符。好喇,ICU 之後再向屋宇署就報告 13 啦,喺2024 年10 月29 號我哋見到古先生有一個電郵,大家可以睇到他喺最後嗰段 14 話,第3 段提到有關嘅檢測啦,佢哋話到有關嘅承建商就畀咗一個報告喇,就話對於有 15 關App70 嘅要求係符合咗啦,有關嘅RI 亦都話畀佢哋知喺在場嘅測試就係去睇下佢哋 16 係咪真係阻燃,佢哋就話亦都做咗一啲(English Spoken)抽樣檢查,佢哋話根據上述 17 嘅情況咧就冇證據顯示棚網、棚架嘅保護網不符合耐燃要求。嗱,呢封電郵裏面冇提及 18 我哋之前指出嘅令人關注嘅地方,亦都冇提到當然大家之前見到係咪可以、係咪應該繼 19 續燒10 秒,係咪有人吹熄?而就算用10 秒呢個標準都唔符合有關嘅要求。有關測試當 20 然會由古先生向委員會進一步去解釋啦,而我哋對於ICU 嘅回應同埋之後後續佢哋行 21 動,相關嘅議題都會係有一啲嘅疑問嘅。嗱,另外同樣令人關注嘅事就係其實承建商對 22 於頭先嗰個測試所截錄嘅片段嘅處理手法,佢哋有冇隱瞞相關嘅情況咧?點解我咁講 23 咧,我哋從法團、前業主立案法團、ISS 同埋宏業都睇到同一次棚網測試嘅錄影,嗰 24 個…佢哋向委員會提交嘅錄影嘅內容係完全相同嘅,所以我哋相信應該係宏業提供相關 25 嘅錄影畀ISS 同埋法團,我哋會連同大家頭先見睇過嘅片斷同一時間播放一次,大家會 26 睇到嗰個分別(播放影片)。頭先唔係右邊嘅熒幕出現咗問題,而係個錄影其實就省略 27 咗ICU 所提供錄影裏面嘅其中一部分。即係換句話講佢哋提供嗰條片唔係全部嘅錄影, 28 由於我哋收到嘅內容相同,我哋有理由相信係宏業提供畀ISS 同埋前法團。至於呢一個 29 行為係咪隱瞞有關事實嘅全部或者隱瞞證據咧?之後我哋可以喺呢個聆訊裏邊可以再作 30 出探討。最後我想簡略咁説明,ICU 喺11 月18 日嘅巡查作出咗另外一次巡查,呢次巡 31 查嘅起因係因為收到、喺11 月11 號收到勞工署署長嘅一個備忘錄。呢個備忘錄係咁講 32 嘅,署長講到:“就宏福苑收到相關嘅查詢同埋投訴説明以下嘅事項,備受關注嘅議題 33 包括棚架嘅保護網是否符合阻燃性能嘅標準,鑑於上述涉及公眾安全問題,現轉交貴 34

Evidential Hearing in relation to fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po

A Court Reporting Transcript by Epiq 37

組,請酌情采取任何必要行動。”ICU 後來作出咗回應,同一個團隊,即係古先生、劉 1 女士同埋李先生喺11 月18 日再次進行咗巡查,今次佢哋係自己去,而唔係將個責任交 2 畀勞工署嘅。呢度顯示,ICU 接獲投訴時候其實你見到其實佢哋係有意識,佢哋對於呢 3 個棚網嘅問題係應該負上若干嘅責任。古先生嘅證據就講到今次嘅巡查裏面,ICU 要求 4 承建商喺C、E、F、G 同埋H 座、各座剪取12 塊小型棚架樣板用打火機去燃燒,再次檢 5 測後,佢哋嘅結論都係“沒有特別問題”。古先生嘅證據亦都指出,6 座大廈嘅測試都 6 係大廈底層或者屋頂進行。ICU 選擇咗當然一啲比較容易進行測試嘅地方啦,如果承建 7 商可以自己去攞呢啲樣本畀ICU 去測試,呢一個做法對結果有冇影響?喺邊一個位置安 8 裝邊類型嘅棚網,承建商會唔會有機會去作出一啲手腳?呢一個都係我哋關注嘅地方。 9 之後我哋會帶大家去睇一啲其他嘅漏洞同埋其他相關嘅證據。大家都知道棚網喺颱風之 10 後,大家會記得舊年我哋係有兩次大規模嘅颱風。有關嘅證據顯示盈利豐其實喺2025 11 年嘅7 月21 號、24 號,8 月16 號同9 月3 號向一間林記建築材料訂購咗一啲嘅棚網, 12 林記亦都有配合我哋嘅調查。根據林記提供嘅證據,每一次盈利豐落嘅訂單都係不具備 13 阻燃功能嘅棚網。林記作為棚網嘅供應商,會根據客户規格去交付,當然去供應有關嘅 14 棚網。林記對委員會亦都回答咗一啲我哋比較針對性嘅問題,佢哋嘅講法係咁樣嘅,而 15 家喺、有關節錄喺熒幕上高打出嚟。佢哋話:“每次客户購買時都會明確説明防護網所 16 需要嘅尺寸同品質要求。盈利豐公司曾於2025 年10 月27 日向林記訂購一批有阻燃功 17 效嘅防護網送到宏福苑,其他宏福苑嘅訂單客户指明不需要阻燃功效的保護網。”3.8 18 佢哋就講到:“客户曾向林記訂購不具備阻燃功效嘅保護網,因這是客户要求。”之後 19 佢嘅答案講到就係:“具備阻燃功能嘅棚網係港幣100 蚊/張,不具備阻燃功能係港幣 20 54 蚊/張,兩者成本價格相差人民幣30 蚊。”佢哋都提到,阻燃防護網可減緩火勢蔓 21 延,並在離火後幾秒內熄滅,非阻燃防護網則沒有此性能,遇火會迅速燃燒,直至燃燒 22 耗盡。”簡單咁講,林記表示基本上盈利豐係買咗一啲平啲,同埋唔具備阻燃功能嘅棚 23 網。盈利豐亦都有配合我哋嘅調查,佢哋嘅負責人陳耀輝先生喺提供咗證人陳述書,喺 24 第14 段佢有呢個以下嘅講法:2025 年7 月份打完第一次10 號風球后,棚網嚴重損毀, 25 Gordon 打電話跟我聯絡,希望可以協助他揾代工去宏福苑修補棚網。當時我把盈利豐倉 26 存嘅100 多張阻燃功能棚網運至宏福苑,當日目測棚網損毀十分嚴重,100 多張阻燃功 27 能網不足夠修補棚網,Gordon 在宏福苑現場詢問我為何棚網會損壞得這麼嚴重?我向他 28 解釋由搭棚2024 年7 月開始,到2025 年7 月已經一年時間,阻燃網經過一年日曬雨 29 淋、風吹雨打,加上阻燃網本身比較容易老化,所以打風之後會出現這種情況。當時 30 Gordon 同我講,宏福苑工程預計在2025 年12 月第一期已經完全完工,可以拆棚,中間 31 只有5 個月時間,用普通圍網便可以,並叫我去幫宏業代購普通圍網作修補之用。但我 32 向Gordon 解釋宏福苑工程是要用阻燃網,如果用普通圍網好像不太適合。當時他回答 33 我:「叫你訂就訂,唔使講咁多,你訂阻燃網都得,我唔會找數畀你。」我離開宏福苑 34

Evidential Hearing in relation to fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po

A Court Reporting Transcript by Epiq 38

之後覺得Gordon 做法有問題,所以便致電給侯先生並重復了Gordon 啲要求及解釋不恰 1 當的地方,但侯先生叫我跟隨Gordon 指示。隨後佢講,於是我叫太太向林記幫宏業訂 2 購450 張普通網及運送至宏福苑收,這批訂單由盈利豐代購併向宏業上單找數。”喺呢 3 個階段,我哋釐清唔到其實係由陳耀輝先生決定訂呢啲不具阻燃功能嘅棚網,定係何建 4 業先生代表宏業作出呢個決定?稍候當然我哋會有、就呢個問題會有其他嘅證據。我哋 5 所知道嘅係2025 年7 月25 日,Sorry,7 月20 日,隨着颱風威帕襲港,天文台掛咗十 6 號風球嘅。原有嘅棚網當然喺颱風中有受損,正如陳耀輝先生所講,似乎訂購不阻燃棚 7 網嘅原因係為咗節省成本。到9 月,2 個月後,大家會記得再有超強颱風華加沙9 月24 8 日襲港,宏福苑嘅棚網又再一次被更換,而所採購亦都係不阻燃功能嘅棚網。我哋知道 9 嘅係9 月25 號,即係颱風襲港嘅第二日,盈利豐聯絡濱州市源進化纖繩網有限公司訂 10 購咗一啲新嘅棚網,我哋會喺呢度播放由警方提供喺陳耀輝先生手機裏邊得到佢同埋盈 11 利豐之間嘅相關微信嘅對話記錄。Sorry,盈利豐同源進之間,應該係,大家留心聽一 12 聽(播放短片)。大家可以留意到上高頭先嘅信息裏面,佢所訂購嘅係“綠色不阻 13 燃”,而錄影顯示棚網每單位嘅售價係人民幣24 蚊。同時我哋知道係25、26 同埋30 14 日,盈利豐亦都再次向林記訂購棚網,根據林記提供嘅記錄,所訂購嘅棚網都係唔具備 15 阻燃功能。陳耀輝先生對有關嘅證據,當然其實係相當之坦誠,佢都沒爭議,佢嘅證人 16 陳述書16 段基本上亦都承認咗係宏業代表何建業先生嘅指示,向林記訂購不具備阻燃功 17 能嘅阻燃網,合共4,500 張,呢個證據十分清楚。有關棚網,我哋蒐集到嘅證據唔單止 18 剛剛委員會睇過嘅,接住落嚟仲有其他嘅證據。喺2025 年9 月27 日,係一次工作會議 19 上高,即係華加沙吹襲香港之後嘅幾日,業主立案法團其實查詢棚網需唔需要更換?宏 20 業嘅回覆表示佢哋會更換部分損毀嘅棚網。之後業主立案法團要求鴻毅發出書面嘅函件 21 證明啲棚網係應唔應該繼續使用嘅。而根據有關嘅會議記錄咧,江長髮先生,我哋頭先 22 已經提過佢係IO 嘅委員啦,係嗰次工作會議裏邊,佢係曾經喺會上向鴻毅查詢,鴻毅係 23 咪有審閲過棚網相關嘅證明文件?佢嘅記憶係“當時鴻毅未能就此事作出回應。”而根 24 據警方檢獲喺宏業、喺宏福苑臨時辦公室嘅電腦裏邊,回應業主立案法團嘅查詢嘅時候 25 咧有以下嘅動作:第一,喺2025 年10 月2 日11 時41 分,有人係宏業嘅電腦裏邊截取 26 咗我哋頭先見到由國家勞動保護用品質量監督檢測中心簽發嗰一份1 月8 號嘅阻燃證書 27 嘅截圖,當時大家、而家大家都會見到了,嗰個依據、檢測依據就係嗰個大家見到呢個 28 寫住“GB5720”嗰個標準進行,紫色嗰度。呢一個、大家見到紫色嗰一段咧,唔係我哋 29 為咗大家留意嗰一段而去將佢變成紫色嘅,而截取攞番嚟嘅有關資料已經係紫色㗎喇, 30 所以係有人之前已經將呢個塗咗紫色。跟住有人喺下午12 時31 分,有人喺宏業嘅電腦 31 裏邊截取咗一個叫做PNAP APP-23 嘅截圖,喺裏面標示咗“棚網應具符合供應標準嘅適 32 當防火性能。”呢個亦都係有關嘅文件上高,我哋見到有人係…Sorry,用紫色嚟塗咗 33 相關嘅部分,即係證明有人考慮過相關嘅段落。喺幾分鐘之後,喺12 時37 分有人亦都 34

Evidential Hearing in relation to fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po

A Court Reporting Transcript by Epiq 39

喺宏業嘅電腦裏邊截取咗屋宇署喺2023 年3 月21 日發出嘅通函嘅截圖,而通函亦都規 1 定咗棚網應該符合嘅防火標準:GB5725-2009 嘅標準,大家見到喺有關文件嘅較下嘅部 2 分。嗱,我哋將會睇到隨後宏業提供日期為2024 年1 月8 日嘅、嘅阻燃證書咧,其實 3 就聲稱咗阻燃證書可以證明棚網嘅防火性能,但係從邊個角度去睇,其實有關證書都係 4 過期嘅。因為點解有份過期嘅證書咧?大家都會知道因為訂嘅棚網根本上唔具阻燃功 5 能。同日喺10 月2 日嘅下午,勞工署人員係去咗宏福苑進行調查,喺調查記錄睇到, 6 勞工署亦都提醒咗承建商應該注意棚架相關安全事項,大家見到第二段有關嘅部分。同 7 日,我哋知道林記就交咗新一批不具阻燃功能嘅棚網啦。去到大概10 日之後,10 月13 8 號,盈利豐嘅陳耀輝先生佢哋再次通過WhatsApp 聯絡進源(口誤,應為源進), 9 WeChat,大家可以喺有關嘅WeChat 片段,大家可以喺有關嘅對話裏邊聽到相關嘅詢問 10 (播放短片)“我想問下,而家呢個網掛、掛上去有冇呢個阻燃劑可以賣畀我?” 11 “冇,唔可以後加阻燃劑嘅。” 12 基本上我哋看到和聽到嘅就係陳先生就問進源(口誤,應為源進)可唔可以單獨出售一啲阻燃 13 劑,或者將呢啲阻燃劑噴返上嗰棚網上高?源進嘅回覆就係產品完成之後咧,佢哋唔可 14 以再係棚網嗰度添加啲阻燃劑。呢個係10 月13 號,去到大約兩星期,10 月25 號係嗰 15 工作會議上高,宏業就報告受損嘅棚網除了雨水棚同車棚外,其餘全部都修復啦。當然 16 喺有關嘅工作報告裏邊唔提過佢哋訂咗一啲不具阻燃功能嘅棚網啦。去到10 月27 號兩 17 日之後,宏業嘅員工喺佢哋嘅WhatsApp 羣組裏邊發出咗以下信息:啲信息係存放在警 18 方扣查咗侯華健先生嘅手機裏邊攞到嘅。而侯先生收到一個叫做(English Spoken)譚 19 先生嘅訊息,內容係咁樣嘅:明天下午預ICU 到地盤,預要燒棚網,Check 定邊啲 20 ok。”大家留意喺呢個一系列嘅對話上高有一段括弧寫住“不公開”,宏業點解之前會 21 有消息,知道ICU 會喺第二日作出調查咧?我哋頭先講嘅27 日的早上9 點54 分,我哋 22 後來知道嘅就係同日嘅早上8 點50 分,ICU 嘅劉嘉敏女士透過WhatsApp 其實向鴻毅嘅 23 楊子文先生髮出訊息,要求喺28 嘅下午對棚網進行查詢。大家可以睇到呢度係咁講: 24 “早晨,我記得Andy Sir 11 月3 號開始放假,Andy Sir 主要想睇睇宏福苑啲棚網, 25 因為近期收到嘅業户的查詢,主要擔心舊棚網脆弱,不能保護棚網。”“明白, 26 (English Spoken)明天睇宏福,(English Spoken)”。“下午可以,上午去收 27 驗。”“明天下午我們都Okay,煩請安排宏業阿譚出席,我們想了解舊棚網與新棚網的 28 規格與阻燃能力。” 29 陸啟康法官:對唔住,可唔可以重複呢個係邊個send 畀邊個㗎? 30 杜淦堃資深大律師:呢個對話係劉嘉敏小姐,ICU 嘅劉嘉敏小姐send 畀楊子民先生,楊子民先生 31 係鴻毅嘅人。喺同日嘅上午10 時10 分,大家見到調查嘅目的亦都好清楚咁講咗畀鴻毅 32 聽。到下一個證據,喺10 月28 日嘅巡查,係回應我哋頭先提過江長髮先生自2025 年9 33 月29 日向政府提供嘅一系列投訴,尤其是江先生其實喺10 月13 號咧提交咗近期中環 34

Evidential Hearing in relation to fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po

A Court Reporting Transcript by Epiq 40

發生棚架大火,所有棚網都助燃,火勢一發不可收拾,令居民對棚網嘅易燃性高度關 1 注,其實佢已經講得好清楚個問題喺邊度。所以其實大家睇到今次巡查嘅目的係ICU 收 2 到有關安全違規嘅投訴之後,到場去睇一睇有冇違規嘅情況。常理咁樣去睇其實好多其 3 他政府部門嘅巡查都係事先冇通知或者可能通知時間比較少。但係呢一次嘅巡查其實喺 4 較早嘅時間已經係約定或者事先披露巡查嘅目的,所以承建商當然有機會去清理任何違 5 規嘅行為。之後大家會睇到證據顯示就係,其實ICU 亦都就呢個阻燃性被誤導。我哋去 6 返2025 年10 月,陳耀輝先生嘅證供指出,其實喺10 月27 號,佢收到宏業嘅 7 WhatsApp 發出嘅信息,要求購買115 張阻燃嘅棚網,佢嘅講法就係“急訂115 張阻燃 8 網,以更換棚網底部嘅普通棚網。”即係更換網腳嗰啲棚網,佢話宏業提出嘅要求係因 9 為有勞工署巡查。如果呢個講法屬實嘅話其實亦都係相當令人關注,大家可以睇到有關 10 嘅調查引至相關嘅行為,至於呢啲行為有冇誤導ICU 嘅成分?之後委員會可以作出相關 11 嘅定論。我哋知道盈利豐喺10 月17 號向林記訂購棚網,而根據林記所述,呢次係盈利 12 豐唯一一次訂購具阻燃功能嘅棚網,而呢個單價係100 蚊。我哋相信,呢批棚網其實係 13 喺ICU 巡查之前就送咗去宏福苑,ICU 嘅古小平先生提供嘅證據就講出佢當時同劉小 14 姐、同李先生進行咗簡單嘅測試,用打火機燃燒棚網,包括新批未開封嘅棚網卷以及兩 15 個舊嘅樣本,分別喺一座次大廈同一座易取位置及另一座屋頂,佢哋話“測試結果並冇 16 特別問題”,咁我諗委員會知道點解當日嘅測試冇問題啦。呢件事件,我哋現階段嘅講 17 法就反映咗巡查工作的確存在咗系統性問題,如果承建商一早就知道、有收到消息幾時 18 會去巡查,而有足夠嘅時間可以畀佢哋買一啲新嘅棚網去提供畀相關機構巡查,呢個做 19 法嘅問題顯而易見,而我哋相信呢個唔係單一嘅事件。我哋檢視咗警方提供嘅WhatsApp 20 記錄,都發現咗有其他嘅情況顯示宏業喺巡查前嘅前一日咧,其實都係會畀ICU 告知 21 嘅。ICU 提前通知巡查呢個做法我哋覺得係令人相當擔心。而你哋見到我頭先所講話另 22 外一啲係事前已經話畀佢哋知幾時會巡查嘅記錄,相關嘅ICU 有關嘅代表,都係我哋先 23 前提過嘅劉嘉敏女士(English Spoken)。喺去到2025 年嘅11 月8 日,宏福苑亦都再 24 次舉行咗一次維修工程進度會議,出席者就包括咗法團、鴻毅、宏業、ISS,會上鴻毅 25 報告指出ICU 上星期到地盤尋常,期間測試棚網嘅阻燃性能符合標準,居民明顯地被誤 26 導。而呢啲唔具備阻燃功能嘅棚網刻意隱瞞嘅事件其實一路都冇停,去到11 月20 號, 27 勞工署進行巡查嘅期間,勞工署亦都有要求棚網嘅耐燃證書,原因係因為勞工署就話知 28 悉部分棚網喺颱風期間受損,之後就被更換。喺當日稍候宏業點做呢?佢哋攞番國家勞 29 動保護用品質量監督測試中心,日期亦都係2024 年1 月8 號嗰阻燃證書提供畀勞工 30 署,大家都知道呢個證書其實係唔適用嘅。嗱,無論邊個送出呢個證書畀勞工署,佢一 31 定知道呢個最多都係涉及舊嘅棚網,其中好多其他嘅棚網都係新訂,亦都唔具備阻燃功 32 能。同樣令人關注就係警方係宏福苑嗰個臨時辦公室檢獲嘅電腦裏面,亦都發現另外一 33 個檔案,檔案自稱為另一塊阻燃網嘅阻燃證書,大家睇到,呢個同我哋之前見過嘅阻燃 34

Evidential Hearing in relation to fire at Wang Fuk Court in Tai Po

A Court Reporting Transcript by Epiq 41

證書唔同嘅,個受查單位一格咧,放大,左上角見到係冇資料嘅。我哋對於呢份文件嘅 1 真實性亦都係有質疑。點講都好,呢份新嘅阻燃證書可能都係因為應付勞工署倚賴喺 2 2024 年1 月8 日嘅舊證書提出質疑所事先預備嘅。嗱,勞工署冇就提供嘅證書作出質 3 疑,林秀青小姐亦都有解釋,喺佢嘅證人供詞咁講,我讀出嚟,佢話“收到測試報告嘅 4 時候,我哋關注嘅係測試結果,卻未注意到當時收到的報告與勞工署於2024 年7 月24 5 日收到嘅報告是同一份。”英文就係“(English Spoken)”,我諗用番原文去讀: 6 “當收到報告嘅時候,我哋就着眼於報告嘅結果,並未留意到收到嘅時候其實就係勞工 7 署喺2024 年7 月24 號(口誤),2024 年7 月20 號收到啲嗰份係一樣。”我哋勞工署 8 其實係咪真係對阻燃證書進行妥善嘅核查?呢一點我哋都係覺得值得深究。有關呢方面 9 嘅問題相信勞工署嘅證人會向委員會解釋。我哋亦都有證據顯示盈利豐嘅負責人喺得知 10 宏福苑大火之後嘅反應,我哋將會播出一個語音信息,呢個係鍾鳳萍(音)女士,呢個 11 即係陳耀輝先生嘅太太,她喺火警當日發畀佢先生嘅一個語音記錄,鍾女士係盈利豐嘅 12 股東同埋董事,我想大家聽一聽呢段信息(播放錄音)。委員會而家睇到嘅當然只係一 13 部分嘅證據,因為時間嘅問題,我哋唔將所有有關嘅證據喺現階段展述,但總結我哋就 14 喺今日下午見到嘅問題,我哋可以歸納兩個重點:第一,我哋知道受損嘅棚網被更換為 15 價格較低、不具阻燃功能嘅棚網,有人刻意隱瞞呢件事,並且向業主立案法團同埋政府 16 嘅部門作出一啲失實嘅陳述,聲稱佢哋使用咗阻燃嘅棚網。其次,我哋都見到ICU 同勞 17 工署並未能夠發現使用不具阻燃功能嘅棚網嘅情況,而係呢方面至少會有以下幾點憂 18 慮:第一,ICU 對進行棚網快速測試嘅睇法就係冇任何既定嘅標準或者政策,其中一次 19 巡查裏面ICU 進行嘅棚網快速測試,棚網燃燒咗10 秒,呢個明顯係唔過關嘅,但ICU 20 似乎對於呢一點並唔感到關注。第三,ICU 提前通知承建商巡查嘅時間,亦都選擇咗比 21 較方便嘅位置去進行巡查,呢個係讓宏業有機會,基本上喺佢哋提供嘅樣本里面講得俗 22 啲“做手腳”。最後勞工署冇察覺新一批換嚟嘅、更換受颱風損毀嘅棚網,承建商係提 23 交咗之前同一份耐燃證書,舊網、新網都用咗同一份,對於佢哋冇察覺到呢一點,當然 24 亦都係極之唔理想。至於我哋盡日晏晝探討過係一啲系統性嘅問題或者個別人為嘅因 25 素,委員會到最後當然睇曬所有證據之後會另作別論。當然無論點講都好,棚網嘅問題 26 就今日我哋睇過嘅證據亦都有好多個令人憂慮嘅地方。主席,我知道只係4 點15 分, 27 但我之後會討論發泡膠板嘅問題,而呢個係一個比較長嘅題目。基於我哋嘅進度,我提 28 議我哋聽日繼續。 29 陸啟康法官:唔該曬,咁我哋今日就會早少少完結,我哋聽日10 點鐘繼續我哋嘅聽證會。 30

31 16 時17 分聆訊押後 32 (聆訊將於2026 年3 月20 日10 時00 分繼續) 33

FD06264 | 2026_港澳台_火灾相关性筛选清单.md

分类:06_境外及港澳台调查报告 | 年份:2026 | 地域: | 严重程度: | 场所: | 起火原因:燃气/爆炸 | 来源格式:md

火灾相关性筛选清单(分析产物)

生成时间:2026-08-02 15:17 | 判定依据:PDF 元数据 Title + 正文前 5 页火灾/爆炸关键词(pypdf) 物理处置(方案 B:非火灾嫌疑隔离)已执行:非火灾嫌疑已移至 非火灾类事故报告/<来源>/,主目录仅保留火灾相关与无法判定(扫描件)。本清单为筛选记录,供审计与召回参考。

一、分类汇总(全量)

主目录(美国_NTSB_火灾爆炸调查, 英国_AAIB_航空事故调查, 英国_RAIB_铁路事故调查, 英国_MAIB_海事事故调查)87555161432
非火灾类事故报告/(已隔离)——15541554
合计87555115542980

火灾相关 875 份(高置信,标题或正文命中火灾/爆炸词,保留于主目录);无法判定 551 份(NTSB 扫描件,无文本层且无元数据标题,需 OCR/人工);非火灾嫌疑 1554 份(已物理隔离至 非火灾类事故报告/,不删除、可溯源)。

二、明确火灾相关(875 份,保留于主目录)

美国_NTSB_火灾爆炸调查(274)

英国_AAIB_航空事故调查(519)

英国_RAIB_铁路事故调查(10)

英国_MAIB_海事事故调查(72)

三、无法判定 · 扫描件(551 份,需 OCR/人工,保留于主目录)

美国_NTSB_火灾爆炸调查(551)

四、非火灾嫌疑 · 已隔离(1554 份,位于 非火灾类事故报告/)

上述文件已由 move_nonfire.py 物理移至 非火灾类事故报告/<来源>/,主目录不再混入。如需召回(如 OCR 后发现实为火灾),从对应子目录移回即可。

五、处置结果说明

由 fire_filter.py + gen_fire_manifest.py 生成;fire_class.json 仅覆盖主目录来源,已隔离数由 非火灾类事故报告/ 实盘统计。

FD06265 | 2026_港澳台_采集进度实时清单.md

分类:06_境外及港澳台调查报告 | 年份:2026 | 地域: | 严重程度: | 场所: | 起火原因:燃气/爆炸;危化/自燃 | 来源格式:md

国外及港澳台火灾/事故调查报告 — 采集进度实时清单

生成时间:2026-08-02 15:17 | 目标总数:≥ 1000 份 | 当前累计:3112 份 | 完成度:311.2%

一、各来源汇总

台湾_消防署灾害事故调查台湾消防署(灾害事故调查报告)00.0%待补(本机跑)
美国_CSB_化工安全调查CSB 美国化工安全与危害调查委员会(化学品火灾/爆炸/泄漏事故调查)1284.1%已完成
美国_NFPA_消防研究10.0%已完成
美国_NTSB_火灾爆炸调查NTSB 美国运输安全委员会(航空/公路/铁路/船舶/管道/危化品事故报告,全量枚举)82526.5%采集进行中
美国_USFA_火灾技术调查USFA 美国消防署(重大火灾技术调查系列)00.0%待补(本机跑)
英国_AAIB_航空事故调查AAIB 英国航空事故调查处(航空事故报告,多含坠机后火灾)51916.7%采集进行中
英国_HSE_事故调查报告HSE 英国健康安全执行局(重大工业事故/化工火灾爆炸调查)30.1%采集进行中
英国_MAIB_海事事故调查MAIB 英国海事事故调查处(船舶事故/火灾报告)722.3%采集进行中
英国_RAIB_铁路事故调查RAIB 英国铁路事故调查处(铁路事故报告)100.3%采集进行中
非火灾类事故报告火灾相关性筛选中「非火灾嫌疑」隔离区(碰撞/脱轨/沉没/失控等,按来源镜像,不删除)155449.9%已完成
合计3112100%

二、命名规范

三、数据来源与说明

四、采集管线与续传(跨会话可恢复)

管线脚本与断点持久化于项目目录:/Users/simon/WorkBuddy/2026-08-01-11-50-21/采集管线/

五、1000 份目标与多源路线图

六、如何快速跑完剩余(本机 macOS 执行,推荐)

沙箱硬约束:单进程约 60s 被回收、出口带宽约 0.48MB/s(全局共享),导致沙箱内只能涓流下载。本机无 60s 限制、满带宽,几分钟刷完。

PIPE="$HOME/WorkBuddy/2026-08-01-11-50-21/采集管线" ROOT="$HOME/消防智库/材料区/新消防智库/火灾调查/国外及港澳台火灾调查报告" cd "$PIPE"

1) NTSB 全量枚举续传(已下自动跳过)

python3 ntsb_brute.py

2) 英国三分支事故报告续传

python3 uk_branch_crawl.py aaib python3 uk_branch_crawl.py raib python3 uk_branch_crawl.py maib

3) HSE 等手动清单

python3 ms_dl.py hse_urls.json

4) 待补来源(沙箱 SSL 挂死/404,仅本机 macOS 跑)

python3 mac_usfa.py 2200 # USFA 美国消防署(已就绪,直接跑) python3 mac_taiwan.py # 台湾消防署(先改脚本内 START_URL 为真实列表页) python3 mac_hk.py # 香港消防处(先改脚本内 START_URL 为真实列表页)

5) 刷新本清单

python3 gen_index.py

本清单由 gen_index.py 自动生成,每次采集后重跑刷新。进度 3112/1000。

FD06266 | 2026_港澳台_香港_宏福苑大火中文翻译版_火灾_调查报告.md

分类:06_境外及港澳台调查报告 | 年份:2026 | 地域:香港 | 严重程度: | 场所: | 起火原因:吸烟 | 来源格式:md

香港宏福苑大火事故调查报告(中文翻译版)

文档来源: 大埔宏福苑火灾独立委员会

更新日期: 2026年07月25日

文件格式:PDF

本中文译本依据所提供的英文 PDF 文件制作,供阅读、研究及工作参考;如涉及正式法律用途,应以英文原文为准。

译文保留原文的章节层级、法律段落编号、图表、文件册及誊本引注。原页下注已转换为Word 原生脚注,脚注编号与英文原文保持一致。图片已按原文相应位置保留。图片内部的英文标识、截图文字或现场标志属于原始证据图像的一部分,未作替换或改写。

本译本采用简体中文,并对消防、建筑、招标及香港法定机构术语作了统一处理。遇难者及其他外文姓名如无官方中文写法,按原文罗马拼写保留,不作音译。

香港宏福苑大火事故调查报告(英文原版)

文本预览

仅提取页面文字内容,供快速阅读使用。

大埔宏福苑火灾独立委员会独立委员会法律团队结案陈词 中文译本(全文) Closing Submissions of Counsel for the Independent Committee 依据英文原文全文翻译并重新排版

本中文译本依据所提供的英文 PDF 文件制作,供阅读、研究及工作参考;如涉及正式法律用途,应以英文原文为准。 译文保留原文的章节层级、法律段落编号、图表、文件册及誊本引注。原页下注已转换为 Word 原生脚注,脚注编号与英文原文保持一致。

图片已按原文相应位置保留。图片内部的英文标识、截图文字或现场标志属于原始证据图像的一部分,未作替换或改写。 本译本采用简体中文,并对消防、建筑、招标及香港法定机构术语作了统一处理。遇难者及其他外文姓名如无官方中文写法,按原文罗马拼写保留,不作音译。

第 1 章引言 1 A. 序言 1 B. 取证听证会 1 C. 本结案陈词的结构 5 第 2 章宏福苑楼宇维修及翻新工程 10 A. 概述 10 B. 各方及其角色 11 C. BMR 工程招标程序 18 D. 截至火灾当日的 BMR 工程进度 32 第 3 章火灾当日 78 A. 起火位置及火灾发现经过 78 B. 宏昌阁(F 座)火势迅速蔓延 84 C. 火势蔓延至其他楼宇 88 D. 各楼宇内部状况及逃生途径 98 E. 事故期间启用消防装置的尝试 121 F. 死亡及伤亡情况 124 G. 财产损失 130 第 4 章火灾、火势蔓延及重大伤亡的成因 134 A. 概述 134 B. 起火位置 135 C. 起火原因 138 D. 火势蔓延分析 142 E. 重大伤亡成因 149

第 5 章火灾当日的应急行动 156 A. 灭火行动 156 B. 警方参与 166 C. 求助请求的接收及处理 168 D. 消防员何伟豪 171 E. 灭火、疏散及紧急呼叫行动评估 178 F. 结论 205 第 6 章承建商及工程相关私人一方的责任 206 A. 概述 206 B. PC&E 及鸿毅的整体失当 206 C. 临时建筑材料及防护措施 216 D. 楼梯通道口(生口) 227 E. 停用火警警报系统及消防栓/喉辘系统 230 F. 置邦(ISS) 244 第 7 章政府机关的责任与问责 247 A. 概述 247 B. 独立审查组(ICU) 248 C. 屋宇署(BD) 283 D. 消防处(FSD) 287 E. 劳工处(LD) 305 F. 警方 314 G. 证据提及的其他政府部门 315 第 8 章消防安全事宜建议 317 A. 引言 317 B. 即时实施建议 318

C. 长期及系统性政策改革建议 320 第 9 章围标及相关不当行为 345 A. 引言 345 B. 围标及反竞争行为在市场中普遍存在 345 C. 宏福苑涉嫌围标及其他违规行为 352 D. 防止操纵投票程序 378 E. 市建局 Smart Tender 计划的局限 384 第 10 章关于围标及相关不当行为的建议 391 A. 引言 391 B. 市场诚信及把关 391 C. 加强法律威慑及专业纪律 400 D. 代表权及投票问题 403 第 11 章结论 408

第 1 章引言

A. 序言

B. 取证听证会

超过 1tb 的个人文件。由于在整个取证听证会期间继续提出进一步的信息和披露要求,委员会获得的证据范围远远超过 100 万份文件和 2 tb。

  1. 正如我们在开幕致辞中所述,委员会可获得的证据包括(i)在火灾发生前、期间和之后拍摄的影像和录像;(ii)警方向火灾当天在场的居民和其他人士索取的证人陈述书和问卷;(iii)居民向承建商、物业管理和政府投诉的记录;以及(iv)查获的承建商之间的聊天记录。
  2. 委员会现已收到 70 多名证人在 22 天内就事实提供的口头证据。他们包括亲身经历翻修工程及火灾的居民、承建商、物业管理人员、前线消防员,以及有关政府及法定机构的公务员。

9. 委员会还收到了关于火灾起因和蔓延的大量专家证据。

  1. 1. 政府于 2025 年 11 月 28 日成立的跨部门火灾调查专责小组(“IFITF”)编制了一份全面报告

(“IFITF Final Report”)。1

  1. 2. 跨部门火灾调查专责小组(IFITF)的代表分别来自消防处(“FSD”)、香港警务处(“Police”)、屋宇署(“BD”)、机电工程署(“EMSD”)、房屋局常任秘书长办公室的独立审查组、劳工处

(“LD”)及政府化验所。工程师袁国杰教授也在科学事务上协助他们,他根据试验台试验、在四川理工大学进行的全尺寸火灾试验和计算流体动力学模拟编写了一份报告(“袁教授的最终专家报告”)。 9.3. 委员会的专家Asif Sohail Usmani 教授和蒋黎明教授还根据火灾的照片和录像证据、燃烧试验和计算流体动力学模拟进行了单独分析,并编写了一份单独的报告(“IC 专家报告”)。

  1. 委员会所获证据的广度和深度,为委员会就火灾的起因及其迅速蔓延、参与宏福苑楼宇翻新工程的人士的责任,以及围标及其他在香港普遍存在的楼宇翻新工程违规情况,作出调查提供了坚实的基础。
  2. 在这方面,我们谨恭敬地赞同主席对协助委员会进行调查的所有人所表示的感谢。我们特别注意到那些坦率承认缺点或提供不利于其个人利益的证据的实体和个人(包括政府提供的证 人)。我们还要特别感谢宏福苑的居民、现场的建筑工人和物业管理人员,他们勇敢地接受

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了我们的邀请,提供了有关火灾当天的证据。对他们来说,在公开的公众听证会上重温他们生命中最痛苦的事件之一并不容易。 2

  1. 只有少数个人和实体拒绝与委员会的工作合作。令人遗憾的是,他们公然反对一项明显符合公众利益的调查。但它们的不合作并未影响委员会的工作。他们各自在楼宇维修工程中的角色和责任,均有书面证据充分证明,不得提出任何严重的争议。在必要的情况下,委员会也可以作出对它们不利的推论。
  2. 有了所有这些证据,很明显,2025 年 11 月 26 日宏福苑的火灾是可以预防但不能预防的,是可以预见但不能预见的。证据非常清楚地表明,整个建筑翻新工程制度存在许多缺陷,每一个缺陷都是导致火灾迅速蔓延和伤亡人数空前的明显原因:
  3. 1. 由宏业建筑工程有限公司(“PC&E”)领导的承建商在宏福苑的表面使用非阻燃材料,故意违反适用法规,造成了巨大的火灾风险。他们至少部分是出于经济动机,并试图通过反复的故意欺骗来逃避侦查。
  4. 2. 他们未能解决工人在现场吸烟和在棚架上处理可燃建筑垃圾的问题。更糟糕的是,为了工人的方便,他们损害了受保护楼梯作为居民的主要逃生途径的完整性。
  5. 3. 当处理消防装置时,PC&E 聘请了注册消防装置承办商(“RFSIC”),中华发展工程有限公司

(“中华发展”),纯粹是向消防处提交表格,而不是进行任何现场检查。PC&E 随后向宏福苑的物业经理置邦兴业有限公司(“ISS”)寻求帮助,以处理排放 FS 水箱存水(“FS 水箱”)的实际任务,这项任务其员工没有资格执行。在这样做的过程中,一名置邦工程技术人员在没有意识到他的错误的严重性的情况下禁用了火警警报系统。 13.4. 火警警报系统的失活实际上是由宏泰消防工程有限公司(“宏泰消防”)发现的,另一个在火灾前不久一直在宏福苑工作的 RFSIC。然而,当局并没有充分调查停运的原因,或通知消防处有关情况。结果是火警警报系统在火灾当天仍然处于禁用状态。

2 [T25/3:8-27]

  1. 5. 所有这些问题都应该由鸿毅建筑师有限公司(“鸿毅”)面对,业主立案法团(“IO”)委托业主立案法团(“IO”)独立监督 PC&E 并代表其管理改造工程。遗憾的是,鸿毅什么也没做。更令人震惊的是,鸿毅, 吴跃雇用的注册检验人员(“RI”),在法律上有义务监督这些作品,只存在于纸上:他得到的报酬只是签署表格,从未试图履行他的职责。
  2. 6. 这些承建商和顾问的失败暴露了一些行为者的存在,他们表现出令人震惊的缺乏诚信和对消防安全的无情漠视。宏福苑的居民为他们的专业知识付钱,但却被他们辜负了。
  3. 这一连串故障的结果是,每一个旨在保护宏福苑生命的消防安全措施——内部防火分隔、受保护楼梯、火警警报系统以及消防栓和喉辘系统——都未能在火灾期间按设计运行。
  4. 至于政府,它建立了一个“诚信制度”,依赖于承建商的“自我监管”,实际上使他们没有受到监督。表格和证书不经核查就被接受,承建商的陈述毫无怀疑,检查在某些情况下是预先宣布的。由于不加批判地依赖其监管对象的诚信,负责监管的机构没有调查和解决明显的火灾隐患。
  5. 即使在居民试图提出担忧的地方,政府机构也没有对宏福苑的火灾风险采取有效的所有权。政府有充分的机会发现和纠正宏福苑的火灾风险,但没有采取任何行动。这些投诉人中有些人在火灾中失去了家人,他们没有得到系统的帮助。
  6. 面对证据,政府承认存在“自身监管框架的系统性和操作性弱点”3,包括,除其他外,“过度依赖专业人员的自我监管,其合规是假设而不是核实的,审计检查和现场检查的范围和频率有限;某些建筑材料的规定标准不足;需要改进部门间沟通的领域;监管架构的设计并不是为了解决协作和协调隐瞒问题。”作为设计和操作整个监管框架的机构,政府对允许发生宏福苑火灾负有责任。 4
  7. 当人们回想起乌斯马尼教授和江教授的口头证据,即宏福苑火灾并不是严格意义上的第一次火 灾时,上述结论尤其发人深思;史无前例的是其规模之大。自 1987 年的国王十字车站火灾、

3 政府结案§1118 4 第 77 条

1996 年的加里大厦火灾和 2017 年的格伦费尔大厦火灾以来,人们已经很好地了解了在高层 建筑立面上使用可燃材料所固有的危险,以及火灾蔓延到烟囱状结构的风险。 5

19. 然而,没有注意到这些悲剧的警钟。结果是:

  1. 1. 宏福苑中所有八个区块的表面,包括每个区块的凹入位,都完全被可燃材料覆盖。重新进入 的空间,通常被通俗地称为光井,是每个楼宇角落的梯形半封闭空间,毗邻单个公寓的厨房。可燃材料使火柱以前所未有的速度和强度冲向凹入位。在宏福苑的 32 个凹入位中,这些快速垂直的火灾占据了 12 个,导致大火无法控制地蔓延。
  2. 2. 直接连接到这些凹入位的楼梯被为方便工人而创建的入口洞口所破坏。当火灾迅速蔓延到建筑物时,烟雾通过这些入口充满了楼梯,使居民无法逃生。
  3. 3. 居民不知道的是,火警警报系统被不恰当地、不必要地禁用,延迟了他们对火灾的意识,减少了他们可用的逃生窗口。

20. 。由于这些令人无法接受的失败,168 人丧生。

C. 本结案陈词的结构

21. 本结案陈词正文分为以下九章。

在第 2 章中,我们列出了火灾前在宏福苑进行的楼宇维修及翻新工程的关键事实。

我们首先介绍所涉及的承建商,各种建筑材料的供应商,以及所涉及的关键人物。然后描述了改造工程的招标程序。最后,我们详细介绍了从 2024 年 7 月开工到 2025 年 11 月的施工进度:使用和更换棚网,用发泡胶板覆盖窗户,在楼梯上创建通道开口,以及禁用火警警报系统。

这些事实大多是由现有的书面证据直接证明的,没有任何一方对此提出异议。如果证据中存在冲突,则具体指出,提请委员会注意。

5 [T27/9:22-12:9]

在第三章中,我们列出了 2025 年 11 月 26 日火灾蔓延的详细年表。我们总结了居民和目击者关于火灾发展、烟雾渗入建筑物内部以及消防装置在建筑物中的状态的证据。然后描述和分析火灾造成的伤亡和财产损失。

本章总结的证据读起来令人痛苦。大火以惊人的速度从单个楼宇蔓延到其他楼宇。公共走廊和楼梯在几分钟内充满了浓烟。那些能够逃脱的人作证说,他们离开大楼时只有几分钟的空闲时间。那些在建筑物内存活了足够长的时间才获救的人描述说,随着大火的燃烧,烟雾弥漫的环境变得越来越不适宜居住。

在第四章中,我们列出了关于可能原因和起火位置以及导致大量死亡的因素的专家证据。

排除了所有其他常见的火灾原因后,有证据表明,火灾是由一个单一的发光源引起的,可能是一支香烟,这支香烟被不当地丢弃在宏昌阁(F 座)公寓 104 和 105 之间的平屋顶上。对于火灾的蔓延,专家的实验和计算模拟表明,选用非阻燃临时材料进行改造工程,对火灾起到了明显的助燃和促进作用。特别是,在非阻燃棚网和塑料布以及它们的阻燃等同物之间的选择,可能意味着吞噬了七个楼宇的灾难性火灾和会自行熄灭的火灾之间的区别。

最后,死亡人数是由于居民可利用的逃生窗口极为有限,特别是宏昌阁(F 座)和宏泰阁(E 座) 的逃生窗口。火势迅速蔓延,穿过 7 个楼宇,烟雾通过改装过的窗户进入了逃生途径,燃烧的碎片堵塞了建筑出口。由于覆盖在每个楼宇窗户上的火警警报系统和发泡胶板失效,居民 对火灾的意识受到阻碍。在宏昌阁的情况下,居民只有大约七分钟的时间逃离:从消防处在14:51 收到最初的火灾报告到 14:58 楼梯充满烟雾。即使他们设法逃到了一楼,直到 15 点 05 分左右,宏昌阁的两个入口都被封锁了,才有可能安全撤离。

。在第五章,我们描述消防处和警方在火灾当日的紧急应变,以及与何伟豪 (" Fn Ho ")死亡有关的证据。我们充分认识到我们的应急人员当天面临的前所未有的挑战,确定了今后需要吸取的教训,以及为加强其能力而必须进行的审查。 6

我们在本章的大部分分析都是基于消防处证人的坦率证据,与政府自己在结案陈词中的评估一致。我们亦对消防处致力检讨和改善其程序,以应对宏福苑火灾期间所面临的操作挑战感到鼓舞。7

在第六章中,我们对参与宏福苑改造工程的各承建商和其他相关方的责任进行了评估。

第 2 章中列出的事实使这成为一项直截了当的工作。在宏福苑的棚架上使用非阻燃材料,用发泡胶板聚苯乙烯覆盖窗户,在楼梯上创建通道开口,这些都是 PC&E 和鸿毅的责任,这些都直接违反了适用的规定。对于失效的火警警报系统, ISS 在其员工缺乏操作消防装置的知识和资格的情况下,协助 PC&E 处理 FS 水箱的排水是错误的。对于宏泰消防而言,它知道火警警报系统已关闭,但无法恢复它们或通知 FSD 关闭。

吴耀信先生和中华发展甚至没有开始履行他们的职责。他们只是充当橡皮图章,在需要他们的时候签署文件。他们未能分别履行注册检验人员和注册消防装置承办商所要求的专业责任。

在第七章,我们会讨论负责监督翻新工程的各政府机构的角色和责任。政府将其结论“概括地描述为架构设计或执行方面有待改进的地方,而不是对个别决策局或部门的判断”。8然而,根据其职权范围,委员会须评估在所有阶段担任监督角色的人员(包括政府人员、获授权专业人员、承建商和其他人员)各自的角色和责任。因此,本章的分析是参照每一个政府机构, 以及在适当情况下担任监督角色的政府官员进行的。

政府机构的系统性失灵是普遍存在的。它们的不足之处有一些共同之处:过度依赖承建商和顾问的“自我监管”,缺乏适当的抽样或核查,缺乏有效的部门间沟通,以及在处理居民投诉时严格遵循官僚主义。然而,特别值得一提的是,特别检控组和消防处有特别明显的失误: 36.1. 独立审查组前任主管承认,独立审查组在处理法定楼宇管制事宜时,在没有进行独立检讨的情况下,盲目遵从屋宇署的做法。然而,独立审查组并不知道,自 2023 年起,屋宇署本身

7 政府关门§§781,883 8 政府结案§970

的做法是在进行小型工程时进行工地视察。检控组本身在工程期间没有进行现场视察,除非收到投诉。它完全依靠居民的投诉,相信承建商和注册检验人员(RI)能够自我监管。 9 36.2. 与屋宇署就投诉进行突击检查的做法(消防处和劳工处在类似情况下的做法)不同,独立审查组在进行检查时,会预先通知承办商。在宏福苑的情况下,这给了承建商足够的时间来采购阻燃棚网,以便在 ICU 检查期间进行合规。 36.3. 即使投诉来了,回应也不充分。ICU 没有采取足够的步骤来验证棚网在宏福苑是否符合安全标准。它接受了所提供的证书,但没有对发证机构的名称进行基本的桌面检查。它进行了几乎没有证据价值的快速测试,即使样品明显没有通过测试,也没有采取任何后续步骤。 36.4. ICU 没有采取任何有意义的措施来解决居民对使用发泡胶板的担忧。ICU 在检查期间看到并拍摄了工人使用发泡胶板遮盖窗户的照片。然而,检控组除了敷衍地询问承办商外,并没有追究此事。 36.5. 最后,ICU 审查了提交的楼梯照片,这些照片显示修改的通道开口明显违反了适用法规。尽管审查了这些照片,加审法院确认提交的材料是正确的。 36.6. 消防处对所有火灾风险享有管辖权,并拥有广泛权力减低火警风险。然而,它的运作基础是, 所有被动消防安全规定和建筑材料,包括通道开口和发泡胶板,都不在其管辖范围内。 36.7. 消防处在处理由注册消防装置承办商发出的关闭通知时,亦采取了过于宽松的方法。它没有充分监测停工的时间长短或这种停工的必要性。虽然它在每次关闭通知后都访问了宏福苑, 但它没有对 FS 泵房或 FS 水箱进行任何检查,以核实关闭通知中报告的信息的准确性。由于这些原因,消防处没有注意到宏福苑的火警警报系统被禁用。

  1. 我们结束对第 8 章《职权范围》第 1 段提出的问题的分析,提出委员会可能希望根据证据提出的建议。值得注意的是,近几个月来,政府公布了一系列措施,以解决现行规管制度中明显的漏洞和不足,这些漏洞和不足在火灾中暴露出来。本章的分析以这些最新措施为基础,并请委员会考虑是否有必要或适当采取进一步措施。

9 [T24/30:36-31:26]

在第 9 章中,我们转向职权范围第 2 段规定的问题,即审查围标的普遍性,大规模楼宇维修及翻新工程招标程序中的腐败和其他违规行为。

执法机构提供的证据表明,围标和其他反竞争行为在楼宇维修及翻新工程中广泛发生,往往具有三合会的影响。虽然《职权范围》没有要求委员会对宏福苑案件中是否存在这些问题进行调查,但仍有迹象表明委员会存在可疑的不当行为,如鸿毅提出的不合理的投标价格、PC&E 在投标中与其他投标人的联系、鸿毅隐瞒 PC&E 的诉讼记录等。采购过程也受到许多关于代理不规范、缺乏适当信息和敌对居民阵营之间冲突的投诉。

监管框架让居民暴露在这些风险之下。ISS 没有适当的系统来验证代理投票的真实性。由市区重建局(“URA”)操作的 Smart Tender 方案(“URA”)是为了降低围标的风险而实施的,在实现这一目的方面根本无效。相反,它给居民一种虚假的安全感,认为采购过程是在独立专业人员的监督下进行的,而实际上并没有进行真正的审查。

41. 我们就职权范围第 2 段下的问题提出的建议载于第 10 章。

第 2 章宏福苑楼宇维修及翻新工程

A. 概述

43. 本章的结构如下:

43.1. 第B 部分:识别有关各方及其各自在 BMR 工程中的角色;

43.2. C 部分:BMR 工程的招标程序;

  1. 3. D 部分:火灾发生前 BMR 工程的状态,包括棚架上的材料状况、楼梯通道的创建以及消防装置的运行状态。
  2. 2014 年,宏福苑被选为强制验楼计划(“MBIS”)下的目标建筑。根据《建筑物条例》(第 123 章)第 30B 条发出的法定通知随后于 2016 年 6 月 10 日发出,规定宏福苑的业主立案法团安排检查和维修宏福苑所有八个楼宇的公用地方及外墙。10
  3. 2019 年进行并完成了检查,并确定了必要的维修。随后在 2021 年任命了一名顾问来设计和监督 BMR 工程。2024 年,指定主承建商执行BMR 工程。BMR 工程于 2024 年年中开始,并一直进行到 2025 年 11 月 26 日火灾当天。本章第 B 节和第 C 节列出了与 BMR 工程相关的全面事件时间表。 11 12 13 14
  4. BMR 工程并不仅仅是火灾的背景。C 节中描述的招标程序存在争议,引起了对围标和串通的担忧。D 部分涉及 BMR 工程的现状,这对于理解一个楼宇立面的局部火灾如何以前所未有的速度和规模吞没宏福苑八个住宅楼宇中的七个至关重要。到火灾发生时,BMR 工厂已经将

10 例如:MBIS 关于宏仁阁的法定通知[I1-2/1863-1866] 11 [T2/21:30-32] 12 [T2/22:12-14] 13 [T2/27:21-24] 14 [T1/8:1]

所有八个楼宇都包裹在一个可燃外壳中:竹棚架包裹在棚网中,可燃发泡胶板放置在窗户上。本章第 D 节探讨了这些材料是如何选择的,以及为什么它们中的大部分不符合阻燃要求。

  1. BMR 作品在另一个方面与悲剧有关。在工程过程中,大约每隔五层楼梯就会产生工人通道口。消防装置中的宏福苑,特别是为块服务的火警警报系统,被禁用了。D 部分探讨了围绕这些关键的消防安全缺陷的情况。
  2. 本章涉及的是确定事实,而不是解决因果关系或责任问题。可燃包壳对火灾蔓延的贡献,以及工人通道口和失效火灾报警器对生命损失的贡献,在第 3 章和第 4 章中进行了讨论。各利益相关者的责任将在第 6 章和第 7 章进行审查。

B. 各方及其角色

49. 参与BMR 工程和宏福苑(“FSI”)工程的主要公司是:

49.1. 鸿毅建筑师有限公司(“鸿毅”): BMR 工程顾问;

  1. 2. 宏业建筑工程有限公司(“PC&E”): BMR 工程的主承建商;

49.3. 置邦兴业有限公司(“ISS”): 宏福苑的物业管理公司;和

  1. 4. 宏泰消防工程有限公司(“宏泰消防”)和中华发展工程有限公司(“中华发展”): 注册消防装置承办商(RFSIC)从事 FSI 检测及相关工作。
  2. 在法定制度下,根据《建筑物条例》(第 123 章)第 3 条备存的检验人员名册上,必须有一名“检验人员”,即一名个人而非商号,进行订明检验检验。此外,根据第 30D 条,任何订明修葺必须由注册承建商(“RC”)在注册检验人员 (RI)的监督下执行。与 BMR 工程相关的记录 RI 在宏福苑在每个阶段不同:15
  3. 1. 在订明检验期间:沈巨忠,他是鸿毅的股东和董事,直到他于 2022 年 7 月 15 日去世。
  1. 2. 订明修葺工程期间:吴跃,他于 2023 年 12 月 12 日成为鸿毅的股东兼董事。

15 鸿毅股东及董事表[WS2/1298]

51. 与上述公司有关的主要人员载列于下表:

表 2-1:宏福苑的主要人员及其各自的角色

鸿毅-顾问 黄侠然(Wong Hap Yin Jason) 鸿毅董事、股东 吴跃(Ng Yeuk Wilson) 自 2023 年 12 月 12 日和 2024 年 10 月 10 日起,分别负责订明修葺工程在宏福苑的监管工作 孔世杰(Hung Sai Kit) 助理项目经理谁编制投标分析 蔡国兴(Steven Choi) 工程经理参加棚网的检查 杨子文(Yeung Tsz Man) 工程经理/ 工程监督,崔国兴下属,曾参加棚网的检查 沈巨忠(Shum Kui Chung) 在 2022 年 7 月 15 日去世前,曾任注册检验人员(RI) 主任,负责宏福苑的订明检验 洪国伟(Hung Kwok Wai) 将吴耀威介绍给黄合贤杰森,并以名义上的注册检验人员(RI)员身份向吴耀威提供报酬的中间人 PC&E -总承建商 侯华建(Hau Wa Kin) PC&E 的董事和主要股东 张燕琴(Cheung Yin Kam) 侯华健的妻子兼文书主任 何建业(Gordon Ho) 经理, 2008 年起担任 PC&E 董事,直到 2026 年 1 月 13 日 黄忠基(Wong Chung Kee Steve) PC&E 的授权签署人,虽然受房屋署聘用为牛池湾合约楼宇维修测量师 谭隽生(Sam Tam) 宏福苑的领班 张耀荣(Cheung Yiu Wing Jason) 宏福苑的领班 张宝忠(Chong Po Chung Mansfield) 宏福苑的主管,负责客户投诉和 FSI 表格的处理 梁丽斯(Leung Lai Sze) 现场文员(宏福苑) 黄兆泰(Wong Siu Tai Arthur) 宏福苑的现场安全主管,自 2024 年 9 月起受聘于卓迪国际有限公司

黄碧仪(Wong Pik Yi Karen) 负责投标的文书人员 叶均雅(Yip Kwan Nga Sophie) 负责准备报告的文书人员 ISS -物业管理公司 黎永利(Lai Wing Lee) 驻苑经理 郑芷盈(Cheng Tsz Ying) 物业主任自 2014 年 8 月起生效 林世文(Lam Sai Man) 副物业主管自 2025 年 8 月起生效 林文欣(Lam Man Yan) 工程主任(适用于 2025 年 4 月至 2025 年 8 月) 罗国瑞(Law Kwok Shui) 工程技术员,持牌电工 李承富(Lee Shing Foo) 工程技术员、木匠 钟瑞霞(Chung Sui Ha) 宏昌阁(F 座)的白班楼服务员 黄百盛(Wong Pak Shing) 高级楼务员 骆倩盈(Lok Sin Ying) 文员(中文)在黎永利及郑子英手下工作 宏泰消防- RFSIC 钟杰文(Chung Kit Man) 宏泰消防董事兼工程师 黄健华(Wong Kin Wa) 电工于 2025 年 3 月在宏福苑对 fsi 进行年检,并于 2025 年 11 月 19 日对 fsi 进行维修工作 李俊贤(Li Chun Yin) 电工于 2025 年 3 月在宏福苑对消防装置进行年检,并 于 2025 年 11 月 19 日和 21 日对消防装置进行维修工作 唐庆麟(Tong Hing Lun) 于 2025 年 10 月 16 日及 17 日在宏福苑进行消防装置维修工程的水喉匠 中华发展- rfsic16 梁秉基(Leung Ping Kay Ivan) 中华发展主管,宏福苑关停通知的联系人 严财华(Yim Choi Wah Alex) 中华发展主任,为宏福苑签署了 FS251 证书和一些关闭通知

  1. PC&E 雇佣了一系列的分包商和次级分包商。他们的作用和代表载于下表:

表 2-2:BMR 工程中的分包商和分分包商

分包商——公司 盈利丰棚业有限公司(“盈利丰”) PC&E 分包商负责搭建棚架 新南方建筑有限公司(“新南方”) 负责宏新阁(C 座)、宏盛阁(G 座)和宏志阁(H 座) 外墙工程的分包商 海德营造工程有限公司(“海德”) 负责宏建阁(D 座)、宏泰阁(E 座)和宏昌阁(F 座) 外墙工程的分包商,由 Jacky Yin 控制(他也控制恒丰, 见下表 2-3) 承造工程有限公司(“Shing Construction”) 负责宏仁阁(A 座)和宏道阁(B 座)外墙工程的分包商 发利建设工程公司(“Fred & Willie”) 分包商负责拆除外墙的现有覆层和清除建筑碎片 天雄工程公司(“天雄”) 分包商负责宏仁阁(A 座)、宏昌阁(F 座)、宏盛阁(G 座)和宏志阁(H 座)上的抹灰工程、油漆工程和水箱的翻新工程 太阳建设(亚洲)工程有限公司(“Red Sun”) 负责宏道阁(B 座)、宏新阁(C 座)、宏建阁(D 座)、宏泰阁(E 座)内部结构工程和油漆工程的分包商 满昌工程有限公司(“Wealth Pinnacle”) 分包商负责更换窗户,包括更换带有防火窗的楼梯窗 分包商——个人/代表 盈利丰 陈耀辉(Chan Yiu Fai) 盈利丰的操作符 钟凤平(Zhong Fengping) 盈利丰的名义董事及股东,陈耀辉之妻 杨志添(Yeung Chi Tim Andy) 盈利丰独立分分包商的棚架工程 新南方 卢家明(Lo Ka Ming) 导演,罗平南之子 卢炳南(Lo Ping Nam) 导演,罗家明的父亲 海德 张苇鸿(Cheung Wai Hung) 导演,尹学友的亲戚 严楚基(Jacky Yin) 海德和恒丰的控制器和操作员

盛建设 姚锦辉(Yiu Kam Fai) 运营商 弗雷德和威利 曾伟杰 总监/建筑师 曾伟杰 太阳建设(Red Sun) 吴日照(Wu Rizhao) 运营商 分包商——个人 王联权(Wong Luen Kuen)(以“很慢很慢很慢很慢很慢很慢很慢很慢很慢很慢很慢很慢很慢很慢很慢很慢很慢很慢很慢很慢) 分分包商被盛建聘从事宏仁阁(A 座)的工作 张明海(Zhang Minghai)(以“明”运作) 分分包商被盛建聘从事宏道阁(B 座)的工作 王华添(Wang Wa Tim)(按“中文名称”操作) 新南方聘请的分包商从事宏新阁(C 座)和宏盛阁(G 座)的工作 王志鑫(Wong Chi Yam)(以“安昌工程有限公司”名义经营) 新南方聘请的从事宏新阁(C 座)和宏志阁(H 座)工作的分包商 吴培坤(Ng Pui Kwan)(按“”操作) 海德聘请的分包商,负责宏建阁(D 座)、宏泰阁(E 座)和宏昌阁(F 座)的工作 分包商——从事小型楼梯工程的公司 联合建筑师工程师有限公司(简称“联合建筑师”) 满昌聘用的分分包商,提供有关更换楼梯窗工程的服务 动机设计有限公司(“动机设计”) 获黎家荣聘用的注册小型工程承建商,就 A 座及 B 座更换楼梯窗的小型工程提交小型工程意见书及地盘监督图则(王岩及王涛) 驰富建设有限公司(简称“驰富建设”) 由满昌委任的注册一般建筑承建商,负责提交小型工程意见书及更换楼梯窗的小型工程的现场监理图则 C 座至 H 座(王孙、王健、王泰、王畅、王盛及王驰) 从事小型楼梯工程的建筑专业人员

黎家荣,李志强 获联合建筑师聘请的认可人士,负责监督所有八个楼宇的楼梯窗更换小型工程 戚务坚(Chi Wuh Jian Joseph Duncan) (" Joseph Chi ") 获联合建筑师聘用的注册结构工程师,负责监督及提供所有八个楼宇的楼梯窗更换小型工程的结构计算

53. 分包商从各种供应商处采购棚网、发泡胶板和其他建筑材料,包括:

表 2-3:BMR 工厂的材料供应商

供应商-公司 林记建筑材料(Lam Kee Construction Materials)(“林记”) 棚网至盈利丰供应商 山东辰旭新材料有限公司(以下简称“山东辰旭”) 棚网至盈利丰供应商 滨州远锦化纤绳网有限公司(以下简称“滨州远锦”) 棚网至盈利丰供应商 恒丰建筑工程有限公司(简称“恒丰”) 公司由严楚基控制,出售发泡胶板给新南方 武汉汉素新材料有限公司(“武汉汉素”) 盛建发泡胶板供应商 湖北宇博节能新材料有限公司(“湖北宇博”) 发泡胶板至海德供应商 供应商-个人 王志明(Wong Chi Ming) 姚锦辉的侄子将他介绍给武汉汉塑(见上文)作为发泡胶板的供应商 杨耀飞(Yang Yao Fei) 湖北宇博的老板 张结玲(Zhang Jieling) 湖北宇博联系人 54.1. 前 IO 主席是邓国权,自 1997 年以来一直是 IO 的成员,自 2012 年起担任主席,并于 2024 年 9 月卸任。

  1. 2. 徐满柑接替邓国权先生,于 2024 年 9 月至 2026 年 1 月 6 日担任法团新任主席。
  1. 3. 江祥发在 2024 年 5 月 25 日至 2026 年 1 月 6 日期间在 IO 上服务。他曾是由邓国权先生和徐文辉先生担任主席的法团成员,并出席了法团的大部分重要会议。
  1. 1. 市建局协助法团选择“Smart Tender”计划下的顾问及总承建商。市建局聘请富邦测量师行

(“RS 测量师”)为法团就注册承建商招标程序项目的独立顾问。 56.2. 屋宇署署长16就楼宇维修计划下的检查及维修发出法定通知书,接收小型工程(包括更改楼梯窗)的意见书,并前往工地回应投诉。

56.3. 劳工处及消防处亦前往工地跟进有关 BMR 工程的投诉。

  1. 4. 民政事务总署 (" HAD ")协助法团处理有关楼宇管理的事宜、出席业主会议及接收居民投诉。

57. 在火灾发生前直接参与宏福苑的政府及法定机构职员及官员如下:

表 2-4:政府及法定机构的职员及官员参与“隧道隧道”工程及有关投诉

URA 所言 陈怡和、“陈宗衡” 个案经理(楼宇复修)负责处理 Smart Tender 方案下的宏福苑文件,并准备投标价格摘要 任立贤,任志刚(“任志刚”) 助理经理出席业主立案法团会议及处理业主查询 加护病房 顾小平,顾小平(“顾小平”) 高级维修测量师及 MBIS 小组组长,就宏福苑居民的投诉进行现场视察 容兆伦,尼克(“容兆伦”) 高级屋宇保养测量师兼小型工程队主管,审阅宏福苑表格中有关楼梯窗改建的小型工程 谢锦明,谢霆锋(“谢霆锋”) 从屋宇署借调的前高级屋宇测量师/楼宇管制,涉嫌获顾兆平就使用发泡胶板号来覆盖宏福苑号的窗户一事谘询

16 房屋事务监察小组由房屋局常任秘书长办公室辖下成立,并受建筑事务监督授权,负责对房屋委员会辖下楼宇进行规管。

刘嘉雯、刘慧卿(“刘慧卿”) 屋宇保养测量师在古德华的监督下回应居民的投诉,并与古德华及李家豪一同视察工地 LD 林秀青(Lam Sau Ching) 分区职业安全主任(小型翻新及维修工程)负责整个BMR 工程的宏福苑,监督视察工地的职业安全主任,并处理向劳工处提出的投诉 女性性功能障碍 贺俊维(DO Hor Herman) 前大埔消防局总指挥官,负责监督处理有关宏福苑消防安全查询 伍永光(SStnO Ng Wing Kwong) 大埔消防局高级消防队长处理有关在宏福苑使用的发泡胶板易燃程度的查询 许健安(SStnO Hui Kin On) 大埔消防局高级消防队长处理一宗有关工人在宏福苑吸烟的投诉,其后出任宏福苑火灾的初期事故指挥官 有 柯炜妍(Or Wai Yin) 民政事务总署大埔民政事务处联络主任(5A)出席在宏福苑举行的业主会议,并接受投诉

C. BMR 工程招标程序

C1. 招标程序概览及市建局和遥感测量师的角色

  1. 继 ICU 于 2016 年 6 月 10 日根据楼宇管理系统发出法定公告后,17法团于 2018 年 2 月 2 日申请加入市建局运作的“Smart Tender”计划。
  2. Smart Tender 方案是一个电子平台和支持服务,旨在减少建筑物所有者对围标的暴露。18

17 法团提出了 13 项申请,要求延长遵守法定通知的时间[1-2/1855-1862]。 18 王 se King Peter WS§13 [WS1/411];(T21/49:29-33) 19 [E1-1/1214-1216]

  1. 1. 向注册检验人员(RI)提供自助工具,协助注册检验人员(RI)委任注册检验人员(RI),并指定一名独立顾问为注册检验人员(RI)提供意见。
  2. 2. 与独立顾问联络,向法团提供意见,审阅法团的调查报告、投标文件及成本估算,并在有需要时出席法团会议。
  3. 3. 为总承建商提供电子招标平台,以发出招标文件及收取标书,并委任独立专业人士开标及记录标书。
  4. 市建局委任土地测量师为独立顾问,向法团提供意见。20 RS 测量师向市建局确认,代理宏福苑项目并无利益冲突。21
  5. 由市建局、土地测量师及市建局签署于 2018 年 6 月 16 日的三方协议:22
  1. 1. RS 测量师同意进行现场调查,并拟备初步评估报告,确定所需的 MBIS 工程,以及有关工程的成本估算。
  2. 2. 根据本处拟备的投标文件草稿,测量师同意拟备一份标前评估报告和一份独立的成本估算, 该报告将保密,直至开标为止。

62.3. 标书开标后,测量师同意就国际测量学会的标书分析报告发表意见。

20 市建局有一个由三名独立审查组成的小组(万邦测量师行、富邦测量师行和杰施筑量有限公司),市建局委任他们轮流担任独立顾问:Wong Se King Peter WS§§31-32 [WS1/415]。 21 [E1-1/1190] 22 投标者以 RI 及顾问的身份提交的标书,市建局并没有就投标价格的合理性作出评论。市建局解释,现时的 Smart Tender 计划只包括甄选承建商的招标活动,并没有扩展至甄选承建商及顾问公司。[28] [23] [26] [27] 23 初步评估报告[E1-1/1474];虽然初步评估报告的日期为 2018 年 8 月 9 日,但市建局的收据章显示,市建局直到 2019 年 1 月 18 日才收到初步评估报告的定稿[E1-1/1467];[T21/7:1-13]。 24 王世金彼得 WS§23 [WS1/413]

因此,在宏福苑项目的招标书及顾问投标书中,测量师或市建局并没有就顾问报价的合理性提出意见。25

黄锡金先生(“黄锡金”)(市建局楼宇复修总监)承认,现行制度多年来未能有效解决业主以不合理的低出价获得合约,从而协助承建商抬高工程项目价格的已知问题。他承认 Smart Tender 方案在这方面没有提供有效的解决办法。26 27 C2. 为 MBIS 检查的目的而委任 RI

法团于 2018 年 9 月 3 日公开招标委任验楼主任,负责验楼计划下的楼宇。市建局在其楼宇复修平台网站公布招标公告。28招标时间为 2018 年 9 月 3 日至 26 日。29

据置邦的郑子英女士介绍,置邦总部郑日佳工程部的一名员工协助业主立案法团(IO)准备标准格式的投标文件,以选择置邦。郑子英女士和她在 ISS 管理的员工负责行政工作,包括准备文件(投标文件除外),参加会议登记,收集和处理代理表格,撰写会议纪要。30 31

共收到 24 份投标书,价格由 8.8 万港元至 108 万港元不等。平均投标价约为 50 万港元。32

作为投标要求的一部分,2018 年 9 月 22 日,鸿毅及其沈巨忠签署了遵守道德承担要求的声明、33和完整性和诚信及反围标条款确认书声明。34 鸿毅在同一天进一步签署了一份不合谋投标确认书。35

2019 年 1 月 25 日,宏福苑的所有者投票决定任命鸿毅执行 MBIS 下的订明检验。鸿毅获得了

67.5%的选票,而第二名的得票率仅为 7.7%。36

25 [T21/52:8-12] 26 [T21/56:11-19] 27 竞争事务委员会,住宅建筑改造维修市场各方面研究报告,§§10,27[71 / 11,15] 28 陈逸豪马修 WS§19 [WS1/434] 29 [E1-1/1511] 30 郑子英 WS§25 [WS2/1264] 31 [T8/45:22-46:8] 32 市建局拟备的投标价格摘要[E1-1/1508] 33 [E1-4/8308] 34 [E1-1/1501] 35 [E1-4/8310–8312]

C3. 委任注册会计师监督工程

11 位,为 30.8 万港元。平均投标价约为 55 万港元。42

77. 鸿毅投标价格明细如下:43

  1. 1. 在 308,000 港元的投标总价中,有 60,000 港元拨作“综合维修计划”下的强制修葺工程以外的工程。
  2. 2. 余下的 248,000 港元拨作强制修葺工程,包括:(i)初步规划 15 天工程所需的 28,000 港元;(ii)为总承建商草拟招标文件共 23 天,费用为港币 40,000 元;(iii)港币 32,000 元,为期 19 天

36 [E1-1/1515];实际上,鸿毅的投标价格高于“中国企业”(188,000 港元)。 37 [E1-1/1535]。 38 [I1-2/1885, 2561, 3249, 3981]; [I1-3/4742, 5579, 6440, 7280] 39 宏盛阁(G 座)的检验报告未注明日期[1-3/6438]。G 批检验报告的早期版本日期为 2019 年 7 月 30 日[E1-3/4496]。 40 [I1-2/1881, 2558, 3245, 3977]; [I1-3/4738, 5575, 6436, 7276] 41 陈逸豪马修 WS§31 [WS1/436] 42 市建局拟备的投标价格摘要[E1-4/8317] 43 [E1-4/8281-8282]

的投标分析及意见;( iv )港币 20,000 元, 用于起草修葺工程合约, 为期 9 天;(v) HK$100,000 用于 68 天的工程检查和监督;及(vi)支付 15 天跟进工作费用港币 28,000 元。

  1. 因此,鸿毅建议根据“综合维修计划”进行共 149 天的强制维修工程,收费总额为 248,000 港元, 即每天 1,664 港元。鸿毅在其投标书中表示,RI 将亲自进行与MBIS 维修有关的总共 46 天的工作。44
  2. 作为顾问任命的招标程序的一部分,鸿毅于 2020 年 1 月 15 日签署了进一步的道德承诺要求声明和反串谋投标确认书。45
  3. 在一封日期为 2020 年 2 月 28 日的致 IO 的信中,鸿毅解释说,由于它参与了 MBIS 检查,它熟悉宏福苑的站点,因此能够收取相对较低的费用。46
  4. 在 2020 年 5 月 11 日至 13 日期间,法团采访了 14 名招标顾问。市建局并没有参与任何访谈。

47

48 49 C4. 总承建商的任命

  1. 随后是指定总承建商的招标程序。不同于选择承建商及顾问的程序,主要承建商的招标程序是根据市建局的 Smart Tender 计划进行的。在这个过程中:
  2. 1. 鸿毅作为项目顾问,负责起草招标文件和招标规则,并对招标承建商的投标进行评标。居民们依靠鸿毅的专业建议。

44 [E1-4/8281] 45 [E1-4/8379];(e1 - 4/8359 - 8360);两份文件均非沈葵涌先生或任何其他扶轮社员签署。 46 [E1-4/8399-8400] 47 [T21/6:7-10]工程造价评估报告,该报告由沈葵涌先生签署。[55]这些文件已传递给 RS 测量师。 48 [E1-4/8352-8411] 49 [G1-2/1478-1481]

  1. 2. 如上所述,根据 Smart Tender 计划,市建局同意提供电子招标平台,以发出招标文件及接收投标书。RS 测量师亦同意在开标后,就投标文件草稿向法团提供意见,并就鸿毅的投标分析提出意见。
  2. 鸿毅于 2022 年 8 月 23 日向市建局提交招标文件初稿。50市建局于 2022 年 9 月 29 日收到 Will

的意见书

  1. 1. 市建局的证据是,测量师并没有评估投标文件拟稿是否包括任何多余的工作。由此可见,RS Surveyors 并没有告知 IO 是否鸿毅可能故意扩大工程范围以抬高合同价格。 54
  2. 2. RS 测量师的评估仅基于目视检查,没有任何测试或实验室分析,也没有覆盖隐藏或无法进入的位置。55
  3. 3. 标前评估报告第 4 段提供的测量师成本评估为港币 224,916,383 元。这是其最初估计的102,077,704 港元的两倍多。56 RS 测量师对这一增长的解释是,鸿毅的投标文件提出了与 RS 测量师初步评估报告中假设的不同和额外的维修项目。57 58

50 陈逸豪马修 WS§41 [WS1/438] 51 [T21/17:17-26] 52 [O2/831] 53 [T21/17:30-18:3] 54 [T21/19:27-20:12] 55 标前评估报告(第一部分)§§3.3-3.4 [E1-4/8599] 56 初步评估报告[E1-1/1474] 57 标前评估报告(第 1 部分)§2.3 [E1-4/8598] 58 标前评估报告(第 1 部分)§4 [E1-4/8600]

  1. 1. 招标承建商“公司背景”的拟议评分标准包括但不限于以下方面的评分:(i)获得许可证、ISO 认证、财务报表和资金证明;(ii)有大型合约工程的经验;(iii)律师确认过去 2 年内无诉讼;

(四)近 8 年内的诉讼记录。63

  1. 2. 市建局任志刚先生于二零 2023 年三月十五日透过电邮,就鸿毅建议的评分准则的措辞发表意见。市建局的陈茂波作证说,这些意见是他与任志刚讨论后的结果,并只基于评分准则的措辞和时间表。他证实市建局不会评论评分标准是否有效、合理或符合惯例。事实上,即使评分标准完全不合理,市建局也不会作出评论。64 65 66
  2. 2023 年 3 月 17 日,IO 的管理委员会召开会议,讨论并批准了鸿毅提出的投标评分标准。会议记录显示,市建局已被征询意见,但对整体评分架构没有意见。67

59 陈逸豪马修 WS§§46-47 [WS1/439] 60 [E1-4/8613];陈逸豪马修 WS§49 [WS1/439] 61 [G1-2/1505] 62 [E1-4/8761] 63 [E1-4/8764] 64 例如,一个评分标准要求承建商“又高又帅”[T21/23:32-33]。 65 (e1 - 4/8762 - 8764) 66 [T21/22:10-30] 67 [E1-4/8773]

  1. 1. 在招标文件中,最重要的一个方面的工程涉及“外墙马赛克瓷砖重新装修工程”。本次招标基于该部分工程的三种备选方案:70 (a)方案一:修补马赛克瓷砖并应用透明保护涂层()。(b)选项 2:修复的马赛克瓷砖和应用彩色涂层(纸皮石修补+颜色面油保护方案)。(c)选项 3:完成外墙石膏的重新批荡和马赛克瓷砖的重新铺贴()。
  2. 2. 投标者还被要求在使用“AKA”或“SKK”品牌材料之间进行选择。71

在 2023 年 4 月 19 日,测量师发出标前评估报告(第二部分),确认投标文件符合市建局在“综合楼宇复修援助计划”下的要求 94.1. r.r.测量师会根据外墙工程的三个方案中选择哪一个方案,来评估 BMR 工程的成本。如采用方案一,项目总成本估计约为港币 1.44 亿元。方案三的总成本估计约为 3.6 亿港元。72 94.2. 独立造价估算包含一些警告,包括RS Surveyors 的成本估算不能完全依赖,仅供一般参考。73

独立造价估算于 2023 年 7 月 4 日装在密封信封内放入市建局投标箱,待开标后开封。74

市建局于 2023 年 5 月 16 日在 Smart Tender 电子平台刊登招标公告,并向所有注册承建商网站发出招标公告。最终,99 家承建商下载了招标文件。75

投标(连同RS Surveyors 的独立造价估算)已于 2023 年 7 月 5 日开标,由市建局人员及一名独立的注册会计师监督。该项目共有 57 家承建商投标。投标书交由鸿毅进行投标分析。 76

2023 年 9 月 18 日,鸿毅提交了其第一份草案承建商投标分析报告。它据称是由吴耀信先生签署的,他后来成为唯一拥有鸿毅的国际注册会计师。然而,77公司注册处的记录显示,吴先 68 [E1-4/8778-8939]方案,[77],并附上一份基于最终招标文件的独立造价估算。在独立造价估算中:[78] 69 陈逸豪马修 WS§52 [WS1/440] 70 [E1-4/8878-8883]. 71 [E1-4/8878-8883] 72 (e1 - 4/8947 - 8948);(T21/25:29-35) 73 独立造价估算§§3.3-3.5 [e1-4/8944] 74 陈逸豪马修 WS§53&§56 [WS1/440] 75 陈逸豪马修 WS§54 [WS1/440] 76 陈逸豪马修 WS§57 [WS1/440]

生于 2023 年 12 月 12 日才加入鸿毅作为股东和董事。78 鸿毅适用于 2023 年 3 月 17 日 IO 批准的投标评分标准。

  1. 根据市建局提供的证据,市建局并没有查核竞标者之间是否有关联,亦没有调查承建商投标分析报告是否含有误导资料,包括与诉讼记录有关的资料。它依靠鸿毅来处理这些问题。79
  2. 在 2023 年 10 月 14 日和 16 日,管理委员会和鸿毅对 14 个入围承建商进行了采访。市建局并没有参加上述的面试,但承认面试是招标程序的重要一环。80 81
  3. 2023 年 11 月 27 日,RS 测量师就鸿毅草案承建商投标分析报告、82的内容准备了一份评估报告,并于 2023 年 12 月 4 日发送给 IO 供其参考。83 101.1. RS 测量师编制的评估报告只有几页长,除了指出其中一份标书中的项目与独立成本有明显偏差之外

101.2. 评估报告没有解决可能帮助业主预防围标的问题。84

77 [E3/9557];(T21/26:10-16) 78 [WS2/1298];参考 Ng Yeuk Wilson 先生的 WhatsApp 消息,表明他自 2023 年 3 月 9 日起成为鸿毅的股东和董事 [A2/170]。 79 [t21 /26:19- 36,33:5 -34:15]估计,[91]它集中在鸿毅草案承建商投标分析报告中的计算错误和排版错误。[92] 80 [T21/27:27-28:14] 81 [G1-2/1506] 82 [E1-4/9139-9153] 83 陈逸豪马修 WS§61 [WS1/441] 84 [T21/29:12-15] 85 [E1-4/9154-9156]律师声明其在过去两年没有诉讼。PC&E 提交了一份律师事务所的信函,其中确认 PC&E“在过去七年中没有被业主立案法团和管理公司起诉的记录”。[100]此确认的框架很窄。它显然不包括刑事起诉、纪律处分或其他类型原告提起的诉讼。[99] 86 [E1-4/8980-8983]

()评分标准的最高 6 分。87 102.3. 按照“无诉讼记录”的标准,投标人提交执业证书可得 3 分 88 89

  1. 4. 承建商投标分析报告没有披露,在 2023 年 8 月,PC&E 受到了在屋宇署网站和政府宪报上公布的注册承建商纪律委员会的纪律处分。它也没有披露,从 2001 年到 2023 年,PC&E 因违反职业安全和健康立法被起诉 112 次,被定罪 98 次。90 91
  2. 据年表的招标程序由前管理委员会宏福苑(流程记录),一系列步骤被通知业主招标的 IO: 92 103.1. 鸿毅于 2023 年 10 月 2 日和 6 日举行了咨询会议(www.cn.咨),会上对承建商投标分析报告和 BMR 工作进行了解释。民政事务总署的何伟贤女士证实,她从民政事务总署的记录得知,谘询会已在特别会议之前举行。93

(“承建商投标价格摘要”)。94记录,根据鸿毅的评分,PC&E 是背景标准中排名最高的投标人。 95

  1. 3. 另一次业主简介会于 2024 年 1 月 6 日举行。所有 57 家承建商的投标资料已于 2024 年 1 月

15 日至 17 日在法团会议室展出。2024 年 1 月 18 日,鸿毅代表回答业主查询。

87 [E1-4/8971] 88 [A2/158] 89 [E1-4/8994] 90 [D1/1964] 91 [J1-3/6264] 92 [G1-2/1505–1506] 93 [T20/56:7-15] 94 (g1 - 1/1018 - 1020);[H1-1/581-583]并无问答环节,有出席的船东对此表示不满。 95 [G1-1/1020]; [H1-1/583] 96 [T5/9:8-17]

C5. 于 2024 年 1 月 28 日举行股东大会

  1. 在 2024 年 1 月 28 日,法团举行了特别会议,正式投票决定三个外墙维修方案和 BMR 工程的主承建商。
  2. 根据 HAD 的 EGM 报告:97106.1. 业主特别大会在庄园的篮球场举行。下午二时,司仪宣布业主特别会议开始,并指出共有二百九十三名业主出席,并达到法定人数。他说,由于时间紧迫,将会
  3. 2. 当日,“警民关系主任”及“大埔黄碧娇”(“黄碧桥女士”)、“梅少峰”、“罗晓枫”及“余智荣”应法团邀请,以观察员身份出席特别会议。区议员监督了点票过程。
  4. 3. 鸿毅向业主讲解Smart Tender 流程及评分机制,包括公司背景考核、招标定价、面试评分。会场内的布告栏也显示了承建商投标价格总额一览表。98
  5. PC&E 的发牌状况和纪律记录在特别会议之前和期间都是有争议的事项:107.1. 二零 2024 年一月二十三日,即特别代表大会召开前五天,ISS 的黎永利先生发电子邮件给市建局,指出邓国权(当时的管理委员会主席)发现网上有一篇文章指称:(i) PC&E 已于二零 2023 年八月受到注册承建商纪律委员会的正式纪律处分;(ii) PC&E 的注册承建商许可证将于 2024 年 3月 8 日到期;及(iii)市建局代表任志刚曾表示,若承建商在合约执行前遗失牌照,居民将需要重新启动招标程序。99 107.2. 任志刚在同日代表市建局答复,建议鸿毅应告知业主有关所有承办商的最新资料,包括他们的牌照详情和不足之处。100
  6. 3. 特别会议记录记录了鸿毅在会议上的解释。鸿毅指出,每个投标人的许可证到期信息已在承建商投标分析报告中列出,截止日期为 2023 年 7 月 4 日。经进一步审查,截至 2024 年 1 月 23 日,全达建筑有限公司和Polyfair Construction & 宝发建筑工程有限公司两个投标人的

97 [G1-1/1005-1011] 98 [G1-1/1026-1028] 99 [E1-4/9446–9447] 100 [E1-4/9446]进一步指称 PC&E 参与了翠湖花园在沙田的围标案。[115]

许可证不再存在,而 9 个投标人已获得续期。鸿毅建议业主可以自由投票给任何一家公司, 但两家牌照已失效的投标者除外。101 107.4. 根据市建局陈茂昌先生的证词,在黄侠然会议期间,他提出了有关 PC&E 的牌照状况的问题, 并作出了解释。不过,陈振聪不记得当时讨论的是盈科电子的诉讼或纪律处分记录。由于临 时政府不允许提问,一些不满的居民被保安建议离开。Kong bbbbo Fat 先生也对盈科的不利 诉讼或纪律处分记录在业主特别大会上被讨论没有印象。102 103

  1. 业主特别大会结束后,有关个人电脑及电子设备的投诉继续增加:108.1 宗。在一名居民的投诉中,提到了PC&E 的许可状态以及纪律和诉讼记录,事实确实如此
  2. 2. 在另一宗投诉中,一名市民从公开资料中注意到,PC&E 被检控或处分的次数超过 140 次。他指称,鸿毅和市建局未能在投标分析过程中充分告知居民。104
  3. 关于特别代表大会的另一个有争议的问题是获得代理的方式。109.1.在特别代表大会举行后, 多名居民向民政事务总署投诉,指称特别代表大会开始时约有 293 人亲自或委托他人出席, 但其后约 570 票被统计而未有解释。105 109.2. ISS 的郑子英女士回应了这一指控,她解释说, 当一位选民来领取他们的选票时,选票上有一张考勤单。工作人员会先收集一批票,然后交 给点票公司进行电脑点票,这可能会让票主产生错误的印象,以为记录投票总数突然激增。 106 109.3. 根据一名市民的投诉,据报道,没有指定任何代理人的居民看到他们的单位被列为已指定代理人。Kong b 张Fat 先生还回忆起一起事件,一名船东的选票被另一名船东盗用 107

101 [G1-2/1498] 102 [T15/6:23-36] 103 [T21/31:4-32:10] 104 于二零一四年三月十七日送交屋宇署及民政事务总署等部门的投诉[E1-4/9457] 105 二零一四年二月九日及四月五日送交民政事务总署的投诉[g1 -1/ 633,716] 106 [T8/52:35-53:5] 107 于 2024 年 3 月 23 日送交民政事务总署的投诉[G1-1/684]

  1. 4. 没有任何业主向委员会提供第一手证据,证明他或她在代理表格上的签名是伪造的,或未经授权使用代理。孔令辉承认,尽管存在虚假代理投票的指控,但没有找到实质性证据来证明这一点。108
  2. 5. 第十二届管理委员会第二届主席徐文辉先生介绍了收集委托书的做法。简而言之,在会议召开前 14 天左右,业主以匿名的方式将委托书存入一个收集箱。代理没有在 IO 或 ISS 在场的情况下签名,并且没有人验证代理或其上签名的真实性。ISS 将向提交代理表格的单位的邮箱发出收据。在会议上,业主和代理人出示了身份证,并在投票前与单位记录进行了核对。会场上张贴了一份提交委托书的单位汇总名单,列出了提交委托书的单位,但没有显示委托书持有人的身份。109 110
  3. 6. 徐锦江证实,在其委员会于二零 2024 年九月六日成立前后,收集代表的做法并无改变。值得注意的是,尽管孔令辉先生和新委员会的其他成员有所疑虑 111
  4. 7. 根据徐文辉先生向民政事务总署提交的投诉,区议员亦涉嫌以协助居民申请资助为幌子,接 近和收集他们的代表。王碧娇女士参与为 2021 年 12 月 11 日和 2024 年 9 月 6 日的会议收集代理人一事无争议,正如她在给委员会的书面答复中所接受的那样。112这留下了一个问题, 即是否有任何代理表格是通过欺骗或其他不当手段获得的。虽然这个问题将在第 9 章中加以审查,但在此需要指出的是,没有船东对此提供第一手证据。 113
  5. 在这方面,特别工作组会议记录了下列决议:114 110.1. 业主以 80.5%的多数票通过了方案 3, 即完全重新批荡外墙并重新铺上马赛克瓷砖()。115 110.2. 以 76.82%的多数票,业主决定用防火窗()替换现有的应急楼梯窗户。116

108 [T15/7:18-36] 109 [T14/16:1-14] 110 [T14/15:12-34] 111 [T14/15:12-14] 112 黄碧娇女士书面答复第 15 条[WS10/2006-2007] 113 徐先生于 2024 年 9 月 3 日向民政事务总署提出的投诉[G1-1/787-788] 110.3. 业主以 54.79%的多数同意委任盈科 机电为主要承建商[130],合约金额约为港币 3.3 亿元。[131] 114 [G1-2/1495-1506] 115 [G1-2/1497]

C6. 替换管理委员会

  1. 在特别代表大会之后,居民多次试图召开会议,以取消指定PC&E 为主要承建商的决议。117

116 [G1-2/1497] 117 陈皓文 WS§§20-21 [WS1/510-511] 3 及 7)、169,654 港元(2、4、6 及 8 号单位)及 182,702 港元(1 及 5 号单位), 分 6 期在 7 个月内缴交。[137] 118 [G1-1/715] 119 [G1-1/1312-1316] 120 [E1-4/9316] 121 [E1-4/9418] 122 [t14/11:23-12:9] [au:]徐先生的证据是以前的管理委员会没有任何形式的移交。没有传递任何文件,两个委员会之间的关系仍然很差。然而,新的管理委员会迅速采取行动,建立了一个工程小组来监督 BMR 工程。2024 年 9 月 7 日,他们用鸿毅、PC&E 和 ISS 开了一个 WhatsApp 群(group)。

唐先生又一次未能在法律规定的 14 天内接受申请。投诉向民政事务总署提出,民政事务总署向邓先生发出四封谘询信。其中一份信件指出,一些居民计划向土地审裁处提出诉讼。123 124

最终,在 2024 年 9 月 6 日举行了一次业主特别大会。业主决定撤除原来的管理委员会,并选 出由徐文辉先生担任主席的新管理委员会。孔先生是前管理委员会唯一一位仍留在委员会的 成员。会议变得很有争议。约晚上 9 时 35 分,即将离任的主席邓先生宣布租用场地已届满, 会议须延期,引起在场业主的抗议。在民政事务总署的协助下,会场同意延长租期,会议于 晚上 10 时 55 分结束。125 126 新的管理委员会试图提高与居民的透明度,举行了 44 次会议,包括每周六向居民开放的工作会议。127

新的管理委员会继承了已经执行的工程合同。因此,Tsui 先生认为不可能移除 PC&E 和鸿毅。虽然新的管理委员会对PC&E 和鸿毅不满意,但他们不得不依靠它们来完成 BMR 工作。128

在这些限制条件下,新的管理委员会协商减少某些工程项目。2024 年 11 月 13 日,他们与PC&E 和鸿毅讨论了从 BMR 工程范围中减少单个项目的问题。减少的工作项目最终在 2025 年 3 月 21 日的业主特别大会上提交给业主。129 130

尽管有这些削减,工程合同继续为进行 BMR 工程提供基础,下节将对此进行说明。

D. 截至火灾当日的 BMR 工程进度

D1. PC&E 和鸿毅的承包工作和职责

  1. 工程合同为理解BMR 工程的范围以及PC&E 和鸿毅的职责提供了起点。

123 [G1-1/1320] 124 [G1-1/1317-1321] 125 [T20/54:24-34]; [G1-1/1045] 126 [G1-2/1516-1517] 127 [t14/27:1-28:2, 69:32-34] 128 [T14/52:12-20] 129 [G1-2/1525] 130 [H1-3/6033–6036]

131 [F1/4] 132 本工程范围包括公共外、内墙、走廊、内外楼梯、甲板、中电变电站、所有公共设施用房(包括泵房、电梯机房)、混凝土水箱的外部,以及公共设施的墙壁、天花板、梁、托梁、边界墙、柱、结构构件等;但不包括主屋顶、所有外墙上的混凝土窗户遮盖板,以及混凝土水箱的顶部和内部。 133 工程量清单规定水箱的维修属于第 6 项[F1/101]。 134 工程合同第 3 部分第 SC9(vii) 3.7.1 条[F1/22] 135 工程合同[F1/28]第 4 部分第 5.8 (COT/04)条负责台风对棚架造成的所有损坏,以及相关的维修费用已包含在投标价格中。这个的相关性稍后会变得清楚,因为在宏福苑的棚网已经被多次台风破坏。[156] 136 例如第 5 部《工程合约》第 13 条[F1/45-46] 137 [F1/52-82] 138 [F1/83-110] 139 工程合约第 6 部第 1(2)条[F1/53]

  1. 2. 说明书还需要 PC&E 安装临时钢覆盖的人行道(临时钢铁有盖行人通道顶盖)。火灾发生时, 这些钢盖人行道还没有建成。140 141
  2. 3. 在外墙翻新方面,PC&E 有责任采取适当措施保护建筑物,并提供足够的保护板。142
  1. 4. 就水箱的翻新工程而言,工程合约第 6 部第 13 条的规格规定,除非另有指明,否则水箱的翻新工程须包括消防水箱、淡水水箱及冲洗水箱。如有需要,PC&E 须提供一个容量相当的临时水箱,以便在有关的水箱进行防水和重新铺瓦期间维持供水,并在完成后将管道重新连接至翻新的水箱,并拆除临时水箱。143
  2. 1. PC&E 每周向鸿毅提供一份工程进度的书面报告,以便监督工程。在完成一项特定工作后, PC&E 必须获得鸿毅对这些工作的批准,才能进行下一项工作。此外,用于修复工程的材料必须首先通过鸿毅批准。144
  3. 2. 鸿毅有权要求PC&E 停止雇用任何表现或行为不令人满意的建筑工人。145

D2. 工程的分期

  1. 在被任命为总承建商之前,PC&E 发布了一份日期为 2023 年 11 月 10 日的文件,回答了鸿毅就拟议工程提出的问题。工程建议分两阶段进行,先在四座楼宇安装棚架,然后在其余楼宇安装棚架。146
  2. 随后,工程合约订明一份临时计划,工程将分三期进行,但须视乎法团的最终决定而定。第一阶段将开始翻新一个楼宇,第二阶段将翻新另外三个楼宇,第三阶段将翻新

140 [T14/46:11-18];有证据表明,IO 拒付是因为没有建造钢盖天篷[H1-3/6035] 141 工程合同[F1/53]第 6 部分第 1(1)、(3)条鸿毅作为顾问,有责任审查和监督维修工程。以下条款表明,鸿毅在工程合同下的作用是持续的、密切的监督: [161] 142 第 6 部工程合约第 2(4)(vi)条[F1/57] 143 工程合约第 6 部第 13 条[F1/79] 144 工程合约第 4 部第 4.4-4.6 (COT/03-04)条[F1/27-28] 145 第 5 部工程合约第 24 条[F1/48] 146 [O1/701]

在 2024 年 5 月 9 日的工作会议上讨论了分阶段的方法,前 IO, ISS, 鸿毅和 PC&E 的代表参加了会议。该工程拟以“3-3-2”分割方式分三期进行,第一期涉及王畅、王盛和宏志阁 (F、G、H 区块),第二期涉及王孙、王健和宏泰阁 (C、D、E 区块),第三期涉及王岩和宏道阁 (a、B 区块)。147

-3-2 滚动分阶段方法在 2024 年 5 月 30 日的后续工作会议上获得批准。会议还一致同意,工程将于 2024 年 7 月 16 日正式开始,初步工作(如安装临时办公室和厕所)将于 2024 年 6 月中旬开始。148

工程及机电由 2024 年 8 月 15 日至 2025 年 11 月 22 日所拟备的进度报告,定期记录工程在三个滚动阶段的实际进行情况。在由 PC&E、鸿毅、ISS、IO 和居民参加的工程进度会议上,提交并讨论了进度报告。149

关于第一期工程的进度,即王畅、王城和宏志阁 (F、G、H 座):133.1. 第一期的棚架于 2024 年 7 月 16 日开始搭建。150

  1. 3. 用发泡胶板覆盖窗户作为工程量清单第 1.8 项下的保护工程。根据 PC&E 于 2024 年 8 月 23 日发布的通知,宏昌阁(F 座)的居民被告知,从 2024 年 8 月 30 日至 2024 年 10 月 31 日, 将进行工程,用保护性的发泡胶板覆盖窗户,并锯切窗户侧的混凝土。151 152
  2. 4. 保护工程,包括用发泡胶板覆盖窗户,在 2024 年 11 月 9 日的那一周完成了 100%的一期单元。153

147 [H1-3/6126] 148 [H1-3/6135]. 149 例:2024 年 11 月 16 日工作进度会议纪要[H1-3/6037] 150 [M1/896] 151 [F1/212-213] 152 [F1/189];工程合同[F1/86]第 7 部分第 1.8 项第二期保护工程,包括用发泡胶板覆盖窗户,在 2025 年 1 月 11 日当周 100%完成。[177] 153 [M1/1010]

  1. 2. 此外,2025 年 11 月 22 日的最终进度报告显示,第一期尚未完成批荡、瓷砖和空调混凝土罩工程。162

154 [M1/1002, 1006] 155 [M1/956] 156 [M1/1048] 157 [m1/1085, 1090] 158 [M1/1141] 159 [m1/1076]进度报告及现场情况清楚显示,第二期及第三期的实质工程早在第一期的实质工程完成前就已展开。 当第三期棚架工程于 2024 年 12 月 3 日开始时,第一期拆除工程完成了 95%,第二期拆除工程完成了 25%,其余大部分工作项目尚未在所有八个楼宇开始。[184] 160 直到 2025 年 5 月,保护工程的进度仍保持在 30% [M1/1228],这与证据相反,很可能是错误的。 161 [M1/1144];比较(M1/1133) 162 [M1/1391]

(Tse Yuk Wa)的居民作证说,一旦安装了发泡胶板,她就很少打开窗户,因为往外看只会看到垃圾和碎片,外面的环境太差了,根本无法打开窗户。163

  1. 重要的是,在相当长的一段时间内,所有八个楼宇都用可燃材料同时封闭,这产生了明显的火灾危险。
  2. 徐文辉先生的证据是,在 2024 年 9 月任命新的管理委员会后不久,它询问 PC&E 是否可以在下一阶段开始之前完成每一阶段。提出这一要求的一个原因是,在所有八个楼宇同时进行的工程引起了安全问题。PC&E 的拒绝是基于由此导致的延误、额外的担保和保险费用,以及失去其经验丰富的棚架工作人员的风险,这些人员在后期阶段可能无法使用。PC&E 声称之前的管理委员会已经批准了一起进行的工程。164
  3. 一个相关的问题是,一旦外墙的切割工作完成,是否可以从窗户上移除发泡胶板: 140.1. 证据表明,第一阶段的切割工作在 2024 年 12 月 14 日的那一周完成,第二阶段的切割工作在2025 年 3 月 29 日的那一周完成,第三阶段的切割工作在 2025 年 4 月 26 日的那一周完成。165 140.2. 负责“宏道阁(B 座)”拆装工程的分判商张明海先生作证称,他曾获盛建的姚锦辉先生指示,在拆装工程完成后,不得将“发泡胶板”从窗户上拆下。166 140.3. 徐文辉先生作证说,发泡胶板在拆除后并没有被拆除,因为它们是用来保护窗户不受剩余工程(例如空调平台上的工程)所移动的石头和碎片的影响。他事后承认,新的管理委员会没有探索一次进行一个立面(即建筑物的一个立面)的切割,并在每个立面完成时拆除发泡胶板。167

D3. 外墙上的作品

163 [T3/37:2-5] 164 [T14/21:7-22:18]约占合同总价的三分之二。这些工程是由 PC&E 聘用的分包商进行的。 165 [M1/1061, 1162, 1217] 166 [T13/47:7-14] 167 [T14/29:14-35]

将要进行的外墙工程的顺序涉及十二个步骤,可以大致分为三个阶段:168 142.1. 原外墙瓷砖的拆装和空调机组的拆除;142.2.底层混凝土的修补和批荡(包括防水);和 142.3。外墙瓷砖的重新铺设,空调的重新安装,墙面的清洗。

外墙工程打算分阶段进行。第一阶段(王昌、王盛和宏志阁)计划于 2024 年 10 月 8 日开始, 第二阶段(王孙、王健和宏泰阁)计划于 2024 年 12 月 18 日开始,第三阶段(王岩和宏道阁)计划于 2025 年 2 月 15 日开始。169 170 171

根据 PC&E 的进度报告,工程并没有严格遵守这个时间表。外墙工程的实际进度如下:

第一阶段,删节工作:145.1. 到 2024 年 9 月 27 日,第一阶段旧瓷砖的切割完成了 11%。172

  1. 3. 到 2025 年 2 月 21 日,第一阶段 100%完成,第二阶段 83%完成,第三阶段 19%完成。173
  1. 4. 到 2025 年 4 月 26 日,所有区块的切割工作已 100%完成。174

4 日,第一期的锤击和混凝土修复工程 100%完成,防水批荡完成 22%。第二期的锤击及混凝土修葺工程已完成 20%。176 146.4. 2025 年 2 月 21 日工作进度报告中的工程描述发生了变化。“锤丝锥及混凝土修补”项目更名为“外墙”。该项目的完成率在第一阶段保持 100%,在第二阶段保持 20%。“Ext 177 168 2024 年 8 月 15 日进展报告[M1/903];工程合同,第七部分[F1/87-92] 145.2. 到 2024 年 12 月 7 日,第一阶段切割完成了 95%,第二阶段切割完成了 25%。[196] 169 [F1/191] 170 [F1/189] 171 [F1/190] 172 [M1/958] 173 [M1/1130]《墙》工作项目包括“外墙混凝土修补”和“交流通风柜混凝土修补”两个子项目。第一期项目的完成率分别为 70%和 30%。 174 [M1/1217] 175 [M1/1050] 176 [M1/1085] 177 [M1/1130]

  1. 5. 鸿毅随后报告说,在拆卸工作之后,发现窗户遮盖板()有严重的剥落和钢筋不足。在二零一五年三月二十一日召开的特别管理会议上,业主决定按其现有情况修理通风柜(92.26%),并分别决定以一笔上限港币一千六百五十万元(89.45%)重建严重破旧的通风柜。178
  2. 6. 在 2025 年 3 月 29 日的工程会议上,盈科机电申请延长工程期限,以执行业主的决议,维修通风柜。179
  3. 7. 同一日期(2025 年 3 月 29 日)的进度报告将防水批荡项目记录为所有阶段的“-”。180这反映了在批荡可以继续之前需要完成引擎盖修复。
  4. 8. 到 2025 年 4 月 12 日,第一期的防水批荡达到 3%,这表明批荡工作已经恢复。截至 2025 年

5 月 9 日,第一期的防水批荡率保持在 3%,第二期和第三期的“-”保持在 3%。181

  1. 9. 进度报告的格式从 2025 年 5 月 24 日起有所改变。在新格式下,完成工作的百分比不再列出, 而项目
  2. 10. 到 2025 年 7 月 5 日,混凝土修复不再被列为任何阶段“将在未来两周内进行的工程”下的工作项目。可以推断,所有楼宇的混凝土修复过程已经完成。同时,三个阶段的批荡工作仍在继续。 182
  3. 11. 2025 年 11 月 22 日的最终进度报告继续将“批荡”()列为未来两周内所有三个阶段要进行的工作。该报告还包括以单元为基础列出剩余批荡和铺砖工作的图表。183 184
  4. 至于最后阶段的外部工程,即马赛克瓷砖的重新铺贴和洗石:147.1. 到 2025 年 5 月 9 日,第一阶段的“铺贴”首次被列入“即将在未来两周内进行的工程”。到 2025 年 5 月 24 日,铺贴也被列入第二阶段。185 186

178 [G1-2/1527-1528]的描述不同。工程进度仍可从题为“未来两周内进行的工程”的表格中确定。[207] [206] 179 [H1-3/6079] 180 [M1/1162] 181 [M1/1228] 182 [m1/1263]截至 2025 年 9 月 13 日,按单位进度图显示,第三期楼宇的铺砖工程已展开,而第一期及第二期的铺砖工程仍在继续。[213] 183 [M1/1396-1405] 184 [M1/1391]

  1. 3. 最后进度报告显示,截至 2025 年 11 月 21 日,瓦片工程仍在进行中。可以推断,这样的工作一直持续到火灾发生的那一天。 187
  2. 4. 由于宏昌阁(F 座)外墙上平的 2-3 面已经铺好瓷砖,直到火灾发生那天,这些面都在进行洗石工作。188但是,只有 F 块的一部分外墙达到了最后的阶段,其余块的外墙还没有完成瓷砖。
  3. 综上所述,截至火灾发生当日,所有楼宇的切割工作已完成,但大部分楼宇仍在进行批荡和铺砖工作。

149. 以下各节将更详细地介绍与消防安全有关的工程的具体方面。

D4. 棚网, 塑料布和踢脚板的使用

  1. 棚网、塑料布和踢脚板在宏福苑中用于防止工具、材料和杂物从棚架上掉下来。

棚网:文件和证人证据

  1. 棚网为阻燃的要求在搭建棚架之前进行了讨论。在这种情况下,阻燃性是指一种材料的特性, 使其能够在外部热源被移除后抵抗着火并自熄,而不是维持和传播火焰。189 151.1. 在 2024 年 5 月 30 日的工作会议上,PC&E 通知与会者,棚网将具有阻燃质量。190 151.2. 在 2024 年

6 月 17 日的工作会议上,鸿毅提醒 PC&E 严格遵守 BD 的作业备考 APP-70 的要求,并提交棚网的防火证书。PC&E 也被要求进行现场测试的阻燃棚网(“工程顾问提醒承建商必须严格按照屋宇署作业守则 app - 70 方面的规定并提交遮布棚网耐燃证书,如合适最好于现场进行

185 [M1/1239] 186 [M1/1231] 187 [M1/1397] 188 黄祖连证据[t4 /46:15- 17,47:1 -3];[ie2-2-10 89] 189 IC 专家报告§3.6.7 [ER3/2181]每块港币 315 万。[220] 190 [H1-3/6134-6135]

测试”)。191 151.3. 屋宇署于 1995 年 5 月发出的作业备书 APP-70 规定,覆盖棚架的塑料布必须具有阻燃性,并应尽可能避免妨碍建筑物的自然通风和采光。192

  1. 三天后,即 2024 年 6 月 20 日,PC&E 与盈利丰(盈)签订了一份分包合同,将宏福苑的棚架工程分包给盈利丰,合同价格为

152.1. 分包合同要求盈利丰遵守有关棚网的适用法律法规。193

  1. 2. 分包合同中附有盈利丰的报价,报价日期为 2024 年 5 月 29 日,其中规定盈利丰安装双层阻燃棚网(砧)。194
  2. 3. 条款条件第 12 条进一步规定盈利丰负责棚架的维护和维修。会议同意,在台风季节,盈利丰必须立即采取适当措施,并对棚架和棚网的状态进行跟踪。这些额外的维护和修理费用由盈利丰承担,他不能向PC&E 索赔。195
  3. 盈利丰的负责人是陈耀辉,他提供了证人证词。陈先生承认所使用的棚网必须具有阻燃品质。他的证据与上述盈利丰于 2024 年 5 月 29 日发布的报价一致。196
  4. 2024 年 7 月,盈利丰向山东宸旭化纤绳网有限公司购买了第一批棚网一期区块。陈先生的证据是,盈利丰从山东晨徐购买了 1,500 套阻燃棚网,用于
  5. 根据一份日期为 2024 年 1 月 8 日的阻燃证书,山东晨旭向国家劳动防护产品质量监督检验中心(北京)提交了棚网进行检测。197证书注明:(i)耐火性能按国家标准 GB5725-2009 标准进行测试;(ii)试验结果为棚网在后焰试验中被点燃 0 秒(即通过了火源移除后 4 秒内火焰自熄的试验)。

191 [H1-3/6131] 192 [J1-1/688] 193 [Q1/8] 194 [Q1/11];也(M1/167) 195 [Q1/9] 196 陈耀辉 WS§§6 & 8 [WS2/1432-1434] 197 [D1/1599-1601]

日期为 2024 年 1 月 8 日的防火证书的真伪已发布:156.1. 证书以“国家劳动防护用品质量监督检验中心(北京)”的名义颁发。然而,这是该机构以前的名字。在颁发证书之前,该中心采用了新名称“中国中央通信技术有限公司”,并从其名称中省略了“中国通信技术有限公司” 两个字符。198真正的证书不太可能包含颁发者的过时名称。156.2.ICU 的顾德华先生承认, 虽然 ICU 在收到证书时没有人注意到证书的差异,但在火灾发生后,ICU 检查了认证编号 156.3. 此外,ICU 在 2024 年 10 月 28 日对棚网进行了一次现场燃烧测试。一项测试表明,棚网在从网中取出打火机并不得不吹灭后继续燃烧超过 10 秒。政府化验室的李永文博士作证说, 根据当天的检测录像,她认为有理由在化验室进行后续检测。199 200 201

陈先生耀辉声称,2024 年 9 月,盈利丰获得额外阻燃网从一个新的供应商,滨州 Yuanjin(滨州市源进化纤绳网有限公司),是用于二期棚架工程。他认为从滨州远锦买的网质量很好。202

在 2025 年,香港分别于 7 月 20 日及 9 月 24 日受到两场 10 号台风韦帕及桦加沙袭击。两次台风都对棚网造成了严重破坏。每次台风过后,盈利丰都会进行修复工作,更换受损的棚网。

159. 特别是在 2025 年 7 月 20 日台风“威帕”袭击后:

  1. 1. 根据陈耀辉先生的陈述,203他曾受 PC&E 何高敦先生要求购买非阻燃棚网以更换损坏的网。陈先生回忆一个特定的对话,他解释说,何鸿燊,这是不适当的使用非阻燃网,何鸿燊的指示他当他被告知,指出盈利丰不会报销如果下令阻燃棚网(叫你订就订,唔使讲咁多,你订阻燃网都唔 会找数俾你)。
  2. 2. 委员会并无陈耀辉先生与何高敦先生的谈话的同期记录。尽管如此,委员会大律师在开庭陈述中提到了这段对话,何鸿燊也有机会就陈先生的证据作出回应。

198 [T1/35:17-18]名称的变更由国家市场监督管理总局根据 2021 年 3 月 31 日发布的“(2021)16 号公告”指示进行。 199 [T25/46:6-8] 200 [A2/94] 201 包括在第一次尝试失败后对同一块棚网进行的重新测试,李博士观察到,在远离火源的角度和距离进行的测试, 与实验室设置相比,这使得它更难以点燃[T25/46:17-23]。 202 陈耀辉 WS§10 [WS2/1434-1435] 203 陈耀辉 WS§14 [WS2/1437]

  1. 3. 何鸿燊的两份证人证词与陈振聪的说法并不矛盾。何猷龙在二零一六年七月二日提交的最新证人陈述书中承认,棚网在七月台风过后被更换,而另一次更换是在九月台风过后进行的。他无法说明网的百分比来自这批但相信第一批构成最大的部分。因此,他声称“大多数棚网都是高质量的,价格高于标准产品的水平”。这一声明值得注意,因为何先生并没有否认替换损坏棚网的棚网不阻燃这一事实。 204
  2. 4. 盈利丰于 2025 年 7 月 22 日和 24 日、8 月 16 日和 9 月 3 日从林记建筑材料订购了总共 900 套 180 米× 1800 米的棚网,每套价格为 54 港元,来自山东晨旭的另一家供应商,棚网的初始供应商。205
  3. 5. 信的答复委员会 Lam 凯解释说,所有棚网都卖的根据客户规范,除了一个后续订单 2025 年 10 月 27 日,所有的订单由盈利丰明确了非阻燃网(其他宏福苑的订单客户均指明不需要阻燃效能的防护网)。陈耀辉先生亦承认曾安排其妻子钟凤平向林记购买非阻燃棚网。206 207
  4. 超级台风拉格沙于 2025 年 9 月 24 日登陆后:160.1. 陈耀辉先生的证据是,超级台风“拉格沙” 对棚网造成的破坏比台风“威帕”更严重。陈署长承认,根据何高东的指示,在超强台风“嘉沙”后订购更换受损棚网的棚网并非阻燃。208 160.2. 盈利丰于 2025 年 9 月 25 日、26 日、30 日及 10 月 2 日向林记进一步订购共 1,400 个 180 米x 1800 米的非阻燃棚网,单价为港币 54 元。209 160.3. 从滨州 Yuanjin 盈利丰进一步购买更换网(滨州市源进化纤绳网有限公司)。陈先生于 25 日与滨州元进的代表进行讨论

× 17m /台,价格为 24 元/台。210

204 何高敦 2nd WS§§32-33 [WS24/2634] 205 [S1/1-5]和 2025 年 9 月 28 日的记录显示,陈先生订购了 2500 台 1.8 米的绿色非阻燃棚网 206 陈耀辉 WS§14 [WS2/1437-1438] 207 林基致委员会第 3.1 条的信[WS2/1557] 208 陈耀辉 WS§16 [WS2/1438-1439] 209 [S1/6-9] 210 [a2/111] 162.3. ICU 于 2025 年 10 月 27 日发出电子邮件,提醒鸿毅遵守屋宇署的通函。[245]

  1. 4. 2025 年 9 月 27 日,IO、PC&E、鸿毅和置邦之间举行了一次工程进展会议。在会议上,PC&E 确认他们只会更换已经损坏和失去保护功能的棚网,而不会更换整个小区的所有棚网。没有披露使用非阻燃网的事实。 211
  2. 2025 年 10 月 13 日,陈耀辉先生通过 b 微信向滨州元进的代表发送语音信息,询问是否可以购买阻燃代理(),将网改为阻燃网。滨州元进回答说不可能。212
  3. 陈振聪的调查很及时:162.1. 2025 年 10 月 18 日,位于干诺道中 162.2 号的华懋大厦的棚架发生火灾。这促使屋宇署于 2025 年 10 月 21 日发出通函,呼吁注册建筑专业人士和注册承建商立即采取行动,检查和确定安装在建筑物正面的防护网、屏风、防水布和塑料布具有符合认可标准的阻燃性能,并提醒他们,如果发现使用了不符合阻燃性能的材料,可能会受到纪律处分。213
  4. 华懋大厦的火灾引发了居民的严重不安。在宏福苑居民的 Facebook 群里,一名用户提到(在一段现在让人感到不安的有先见之明的评论中),如果在宏福苑发生类似的火灾,可能会把几百人送进火海中丧生。214
  5. 孔先生于 2025 年 10 月 23 日向 ICU 的刘慧仪女士发出电子邮件,跟进他早前发出的投诉(ICU 于 2025 年 10 月 3 日通过 1823 收到有关215的投诉),涉及台风过后受损的棚网。他指出,在华懋大厦大火后,居民对棚网恶化的状况感到担忧,并敦促 ICU 进行检查。216
  6. 2025 年 10 月 25 日,PC&E 在由 IO、PC&E、鸿毅和 ISS 参加的工作进度会议上报告说,损坏的棚网(除雨篷和捕获扇外)已经完全更换。没有向置邦(ISS)披露替换网是非阻燃。217

211 [H1-3/6116-6117] 212 [A2/111] 213 [J1-2/6192-6193] 214 [O1/54] 215 [O1/52-53][I1-4/8689-8700] 216 [O1/52];有关透过 1823 发出的类似查询/投诉,请参阅[01 /48]。 217 [H1-3/6124]

PC&E 参加了检查,并注意到 ICU 希望了解旧网和台风后安装的新网的规格和防火性能 ),进一步指出Andy Ku 先生希望在每个区块进行抽样测试()。218

  1. 2. 到上午 9 点 54 分,Sam Tam 先生给 Hau Wa Kin 先生发了信息,明确标记为“不披露”(ok),

ICU 将于第二天下午到现场进行烧网测试。219

  1. 3. 陈耀辉先生的证据是,在同一天(即 2025 年 10 月 27 日),他收到 PC&E 的Gordon Ho 先生的指示,要求他紧急更换位于棚架底部的非阻燃网()为阻燃网,因为他预计会受到220海关的检查
  2. 4. 据此,盈利丰于 2025 年 10 月 27 日以每套港币 100 元的价格,向林记购入 115 套 180 米x18 米的阻燃网。林记确认,这是唯一一批出售给盈利丰的阻燃批次,价格差异(100 港元对每单位 54 港元)反映了阻燃代理在阻燃网的注册。221 222
  3. 根据古先生所提供的证据,监察小组于 2025 年 10 月 28 日进行视察:

167.2. 加护病房认为,快速检查没有引起具体关切。223

  1. 3. 顾先生作证说,如果地面网没有被调换,PC&E 的欺骗行为可能会被发现。224
  1. 4. 顾先生还证实,ICU 要求但没有提供新棚网的防火证书。他解释说,这是因为鸿毅向 ICU 表示,新旧棚网是由同一供应商提供的,并且使用了同一证书。225

218 [1-4/8766-8767]此次检查遵循了 ICU 的快速测试方法——用打火机烧网。这些棚网是从屋顶和地面上容易到达的地点取样的。[255] 219 [A2/95] 220 陈耀辉 WS§17 [WS2/1439-1440] 221 [WS2/1557] 222 [S1/12] 223 Ku Siu Ping 3rd WS§41 [WS14/2142]是从不同的[261]供应商处购买的,明确符合非阻燃规格,价格较低,反映了缺乏阻燃处理。如果替换网实际上是阻燃, PC&E 可以简单地为新批次出具证书。 224 [T22/60:19-20]

2025 年 11 月 20 日,劳工处视察了该地点,并要求提供更换网的防火证书。PC&E 提供了相同的证书,日期为 2024 年 1 月 8 日,据称是由国家劳动防护产品质量监督检验中心(北京) 颁发的226,该证书 PC&E 已经在大约 16 个月前向劳工处提供了该证书。林秀清女士承认劳工处没有人将本证书与存档的副本进行比较。227

向 ICU 和LD 表示旧网和新网使用相同的防火证书是虚假的。的替代品

考虑到上述证据,请委员会发现,在火灾发生时,包围在宏福苑的 8 个楼宇的棚网网中,有相当大一部分是为替换在台风中损坏的网而购置的非阻燃网:170.1. 陈耀辉先生的证据是, 台风“威帕”对棚网()造成了严重的破坏,而超级台风“拉加萨”造成了更严重的破坏。正如陈先生所承认的,除了林基于 2025 年 10 月 27 日订购 115 套以供监察小组翌日视察外,用于更换损坏的棚网的新棚网没有一套是阻燃。228 170.2. 仅购买记录就表明,在 2025 年 7 月至 10 月期间,至少购买了 4,800 套非阻燃棚网,每套尺寸为 1.8 米× 17 米或 18 米。这些网的总表面积约为 15 万平方米,无论以何种标准衡量都是一个特别大的表面积。170.3.相比之下,陈耀辉先生的证据显示,第一期工程的首批据称为阻燃的棚网只有 1,500 个单位。229 230

  1. 4. 如果只有一小部分或可忽略不计的棚网被替换,PC&E 和盈利丰在接到 ICU 计划于 2025 年10 月 28 日进行检查的通知后,就没有必要在可到达的地点紧急用阻燃网替换棚网。紧急更换的事实和时机表明他们自己的理解,当时包围庄园的网将无法检查。
  2. 照片证据进一步证实了广泛使用非阻燃替代网。在靠近宏昌阁(F 座)的起火点地区,可以看到明显较浅颜色和更大透明度的棚网(根据证据,这些特征区分了台风231之后安装的替换 网)。

225 [T22/56:19-35] 226 [D1/1685-1687] 227 [T16/21:8-36] 228 [S1/12] 229 陈耀辉 WS§8 [WS2/1433-1434] 230 陈耀辉 WS§§14,16 [ws2 / 1437,1438 -1439] 231 高宜理的证据[T3/45:28-30];叶家逵[T5/7:21-23];罗德培[T5/18/5-8];[T15/33:13-15]

图 2-1:宏昌阁火灾初期棚网的照片(现场工作人员拍摄) 232

图 2-2:2025 年 10 月 8 日拍摄的超级台风拉加莎过后的233的情况

棚网:专家证据

232 [O2/1532];Kong 张 Fat 2nd WS§61(6)[WS11/2060] 233 [O2/1511];第 2 版WS§61(4)[WS11/2058-2059]

李博士解释说,国家标准 GB5725-2009 规定,水平和纵向燃烧试验的续焰时间在火源被清除后不超过 4 秒。 然而,该标准要求足够数量的标本:条件 a 为 10 个标本,条件b 为 5 个标本 234

据 Lee 博士说,她的试验在样本量(因为棚网的很大一部分被大火烧毁)和网的质量(因为剩余的棚网的质量可能受到火灾的影响)两方面都有局限性。235例如:175.1. 对于宏昌阁(F 座), Dr Lee 获得了棚网的 5 个样品,其中 4 个后焰测试不合格。然而,李博士指出,由于上述局限性,这并不一定意味着 F 块中 80%的棚网是非阻燃。236 175.2. 李博士对从宏泰阁 (E 座)提取的样本进行的测试给出了同样的解释,两个样本都未能通过后焰测试。237 175.3. 对于宏新阁(C 座),没有足够的样本进行横向和纵向测试。238 175.4. 另一方面,对于其余的块,虽然看起来大约 80%的样品的后焰时间不超过 4 秒,但这并不能确定这些块上的大多数棚网都是阻燃。当有人向她提出,这些结果可能反映了“生存偏差”时,李博士更倾向于将同一点描述为地点的限制 239

至于袁国强教授的证据:176.1. 在四川进行的比较(i) 阻燃、棚网、(ii) 非阻燃网、240网和(iii) 从宏志阁(H 座)采样的网的特性的测试表明,从宏志阁采样的网表现出最快的火势蔓延速度,并最终被大火吞噬。241

234 [ER2-1/487] 235 [T25/43:13-22]条件。无论哪种方式,提交的结果都是一样的:被火灾烧毁最彻底的网在样品中代表性不足,因此测试结果不能被解读为火灾前安装的棚网的代表。[274] 236 [T25/46:28-47:15] 237 [ER2-1/476]; [T25/47:35-36; 48:1-5] 238 [ER2-1/476] 239 [ER2-1/516-517] 240 这些未经认证的棚网,通过加热和干燥人为变质,确认为非阻燃[ER2-2/1429-1431]。 241 袁教授最后专家报告§2.8.4 [ER2-2/1201];(T26/22:10-14)

图 2-3:显示阻燃网(左)和宏志阁网(右)242网上火势蔓延的照片

  1. 3. 根据他的科学分析,元教授同意委员会大律师的意见,即假设宏福苑的所有其他变量保持不变-唯一的区别是棚网和现场使用的画布具有阻燃属性-沿着宏昌阁再入道的快速垂直火灾不

242 袁教授最后专家报告第 2.8.3 条(图 2-9(a)及(b)) [ER2-2/1200]

会发展。袁教授也同意资深主席的观点,即非阻燃网本身是宏昌阁内垂直火势迅速蔓延的一个非常重要的因素。243 244

  1. Usmani 教授和 Jiang 教授得出了类似的结论:177.1. 在对从宏志阁(H 座)收集的棚网样品进行的实验中,他们观察到,在火源被扑灭后,网产生滴火并非常迅速地传播点火,这是非阻燃材料的行为。另一方面, 245
  2. 2. 根据他们的模拟,非阻燃网作为一个连续的垂直灯芯,使火焰能够在 31 层中传播。246
  1. 3. Usmani 教授和Jiang 教授同意袁教授的观点,即如果宏福苑的棚网和帆布具有阻燃性,那么最初的火灾“可能”已经自行熄灭。他们一致认为,竹竿网的行为在点火释放竹竿内的能量方面发挥了重要作用。然而,乌斯马尼教授强调,这里的关键字是“可能”,即247,并且存在不确定性因素。248 249
  2. 科学证据并没有确定火灾当天阻燃和非阻燃棚网的确切比例。特别是李永文博士,由于场地条件的限制,无法就从现场取得的棚网样品的阻燃性发表结论性意见。尽管如此,上文第(i) 段所载的证据,包括林记和陈耀辉先生的供述、二零 2024 年一月八日的证书多次被出示, 但似乎并非真实,以及显示两次台风过后更换棚网规模的照片,均为委员会在没有实验室精度的情况下作出相关结论提供了足够的基础。

179. 综合所有线索,请委员会得出结论认为,棚网中包含八个块的很大一部分

243 [T26/21:11-14] 244 [T26/19:18-24] 245 [T27/60:4-14] 246 IC 专家报告§6.3.1 [ER3/2245];(T27/59:17-60:3) 247 [T27/62:6-20, 63:4-6] 248 [T27/85:5-24] 249 IC 专家报告§6.3.3 [ER3/2246]

(iii) 塑料布和帆布

181. 除了棚网外,各种类型的塑料布,也被称为帆布(),也被用于棚架周围。

图 2-4:塑料布的照片和宏福苑的画布(摘自李永文博士的演讲)250

消防处机场分区指挥官杜志荣博士作证说,在每座大厦一楼的平屋顶上发现了塑料布和帆布 (用作覆盖存放于该等地点的建筑材料),并安装在扇上。251

在 2023 年 3 月 21 日的 BD 通函中,252指出,用于覆盖正在维修或小型工程的建筑物正面的防护网,屏风,防水布/ 塑料布应具有符合公认标准的适当阻燃属性,包括GB 5725-2009, BS 5867-2:2008 (B 型)和 NFPA 701:2019 作为示例。

李永文博士作证说,国家标准 GB 5725-2009 可能不适用于棚网以外的材料,而英国标准 BS 5867-2:2008 (B 型)将适用于塑料布和帆布。253

李永文博士于 2026 年 6 月 25 日提交了一份进一步的声明:185.1. 李博士解释说,根据 BS 5867-2:2008 (B 型)的要求,当火焰在受控条件下对样品施加 15 秒时,任何孔的任何部分或任何火焰的最低边界都不得到达样品的顶部边缘或垂直边缘,并且不得有燃烧的碎片液滴

250 [ER4/2474];参见[ER2-1/503] 251 [T26/32:34-33:6] 252 [B2/1326]样品在试验中完全消耗(见§3.8)。Lee 博士得出结论,这些样品很容易被具有显著蔓延的小火焰点燃,以及产生有助于火势蔓延的燃烧液滴(见§4.2)。[296] 253 [T25/49:2-7, 57:22-58:27]

分离。254 185.2. 李博士测试了从宏志阁获得的四个塑料布样本。这些样品的测试结果表明, 除了一个样品外,火焰或孔到达样品的上部或垂直边缘,因此255不符合 BS 5867-2:2008 (B 型)的要求。大部分的测试 256

  1. 李永文博士的证据是,对现场发现的塑料布进行的测试比安全防护网257更严重,并且所有这些样品都不符合适用的阻燃标准(无论采用哪种标准)。258
  2. 此外,据袁教授介绍,在四川进行的大规模火灾试验表明,非阻燃棚网与非阻燃帆布相结合, 产生的热量足以点燃竹竿。这表明,非阻燃帆布在加速火灾生长方面发挥了关键作用,将有 限和局部的火灾转变为广泛而强烈的火灾,沿着重新进入的 31 层。259
  3. 根据专家证据,请委员会发现塑料布和火灾当天宏福苑的棚架上的帆布不是阻燃,并促成了火灾的迅速蔓延。

(iv) 踢脚板

  1. 脚踢脚板()是低的,垂直的屏障,沿着棚架水平平台的边缘安装在宏福苑处。李永文博士测试了从不同区块获得的踢脚板样本
  2. 根据李永文博士进行的实验室测试,所有的踢脚板样品在去除火焰的直接源后很容易点燃, 持续燃烧并产生燃烧液滴(见§§3.7 和 4.2-5.2)。样品没有表现出自熄的迹象。因此请委员会发现,宏福苑中使用的踢脚板是非阻燃。 260 261

D5. 发泡胶板及相关护窗材料

254 [C19/2830] 255 C19/2831-2832 256 [C19/2827] 257 [ER2-1/486] 258 [T25/38:25-39:6, 48:23-25] 259 袁教授最后专家报告§§4.2.12-4.2.13 [ER2-2/1277] 260 [ER2-1/470-471] 261 [ER4/2481]

早在 2024 年 6 月 17 日的工程会议上,就提出了关于提议用作窗户保护的发泡胶板可燃性的担忧。262 192.1. 鸿毅注意到发泡胶板很容易被点燃,并且在燃烧时会产生大量的烟雾。它建议使用胶合板作为替代材料。PC&E 回复该替代材料的防护功能较发泡胶板差。192.2.最后, 鸿毅观察到每个产品都有其优点和缺点,但坚持使用发泡胶板的观点 PC&E 坚持使用发泡胶板,必须考虑相关风险并采取相应措施。

2024 年 7 月 17 日,PC&E 向鸿毅发出一封信(复制 IO 和 ISS),指出在 2024 年 7 月 16 日的工作会议上已经批准使用发泡胶板作为窗户遮盖板。虽然在 2024 年 7 月 16 日的任何会议上都没有批准记录,但鸿毅在 2024 年 7 月 18 日批准了该信函的内容并加盖了印章和签名。信中没有记录PC&E 提出任何措施来解决使用发泡胶板的消防安全风险。 263

此后,发泡胶板的第一批订单从 2024 年 8 月下旬开始:194.1. 海德(海德营造工程有限公司), 分包商负责抹王亲属的外墙,王 Tai 和宏昌阁(块 D F),放置三个订单发泡胶板(挤塑板)来自湖北Yubo(湖北宇博节能新材料有限公司)8 月 26 日,3 9 月和 2024 年 9 月 19 日。264 194.2. 在 2024 年 9 月 19 日的命令中指出,发泡胶板不是阻燃 (())。另外两个订单没有说明所订购的发泡胶板是否为阻燃,但发泡胶板的单价与 2024 年 9 月 19 日的订单相同(rmb350 -360 / m 265)。266 267

通过四张日期为 2024 年 8 月 27 日,9 月 3 日,9 月 9 日和 9 月 17 日的发票,恒丰营造工程有限公司,一个相关的 王孙、王盛和宏志阁(C、G、H 座)。268

262 [H1-3/6131] 263 [F1/297]公司的海德, on-sold 部分发泡胶板给新南方,分包商为外墙维修 264 [C1-2/1099-1127]

266 [C1-2/1113, 1121] 267 [C1-2/1099] 268 [c1 - 2/1128 - 1135]。

图 2-5:在宏福苑找到的两种类型的发泡胶板的例子(摘自李永文博士的声明)272

  1. 2. 李博士观察到,火灾后在宏福苑发现的大多数发泡胶板都被压印成方形中方形图案(),并发现这些图案比具有菱形图案()的发泡胶板更容易点燃。273方形中方形图案的发泡胶板很容易点燃,火焰施放 16 - 19 秒内火焰蔓延超过 150mm,并在规定的测试周期内燃烧,产生燃烧液滴。274

269 [F4/1016] 270 [F1/212-213] 271 [T25/51:22-52:13] 272 [ER2-1/472] 273 [T25/53:6-14] 274 [ER2-1/469]

  1. 3. 居民提供的证据也表明,2025 年 2 月之前供应的发泡胶板的图案与随后的发泡胶板的菱形图案不同。早期的发泡胶板有一个方形中的方形图案和“CO2”标记。275

图 2-6:发泡胶板于 2024 年 9 月 28 日拍摄的照片 276

279 201.1. PC&E 的 Sam Tam 于 12:38 向 WhatsApp 群发送了视频,声称要证明发泡胶板不会被烟头点燃。他指出,如果使用明火,许多材料都可能被点燃,包括竹棚架和棚网。280

275 第 2 版WS§61(2)[WS11/2056] 276 [02 /1445] 2014。2024 年 9 月 13 日,PC&E 和 IO 代表继续在他们的 WhatsApp 群中讨论发泡胶板的使用: 277 [T14/30:19-24] 278 [F4/1029] 279 [H1-3/6019] 280 [f4/1033 - 1034];视频(f1/24.2 - 25.7)

  1. 2. IO 仍然担心这些视频不会安抚居民。中午 12 点 44 分,管理委员会的一名成员向PC&E 推荐了一段 Facebook 视频,视频显示发泡胶板是易燃的。徐先生亦要求向消防处及屋宇署查询, 以确认是否可接受发泡胶板物料。281
  2. 3. 何鸿燊在下午 1 时 28 分表明了盈科的立场。如果置邦(ISS)希望更换保护窗户遮盖板的材料,则必须等到第二期,因为第一期的发泡胶板已经到达现场,保护工作正在进行中。282
  3. 4. 当晚 10 时 31 分,黄合贤先生传阅鸿毅的书面意见。鸿毅断言,没有法律要求外墙装修工程中使用的防护材料(除了棚网)必须为阻燃;现有楼宇的外部修葺工程一般不会构成严重的火警风险;发泡胶板比棚网更不可能传播火灾。因此,它推断,只有棚架 283
  4. PC&E 的进度报告表明,到 2024 年 9 月 17 日,发泡胶板已经安装在一些窗口上,284和第一期的保护工程已经完成了 15%。285
  5. 2024 年 9 月 17 日,鸿毅的 Steven Choi 先生在WhatsApp 群中报告说,他打电话给消防处询问发泡胶板的使用情况,并被消防处告知,没有法律规定发泡胶板是否可以使用。286
  6. 鸿毅的解释并没有减轻 IO 的担忧。2024 年 9 月 19 日,徐先生要求鸿毅以书面形式向居民解释为什么它接受使用发泡胶板(不是阻燃)作为保护材料。287
  7. 鸿毅从未向居民发出书面解释。取而代之的是,居民们在 2024 年 9 月 28 日和 29 日举行的简报会上收到了口头解释,在此期间,PC&E 接受了发泡胶板可以用明火点燃。288 289
  8. 法团最终于 2024 年 10 月 4 日(透过副主席麦鸿崧先生)以电邮向消防处查询,强调“大多数

281 2024 年 9 月居民拍摄到的其他可燃发泡胶板视频见[01 /A11.1, A11.2]。棚网受屋宇署作业备考 APP-70 规管。鸿毅得出结论,有效防止火势蔓延需要表面上的所有临时材料都具有阻燃性,而要求发泡胶板单独具有阻燃性是不现实的想法。[325] 282 [F4/1034-1045] 283 [O2/1154];请注意,同样的消息没有出现在 Mr Tsui Moon Come Tony [F4/1039]提供的 WhatsApp 群消息副本中。 284 [M1/937] 285 窗户的[327] [M1/932]被发泡胶板覆盖,居民“处于高风险中,因为发泡胶板被发现是高度易燃的”。消防处的回应是让麦鸿崧向屋宇署及劳工处征询意见[332] [333] 286 [F4/1057] 287 [F4/1063] 288 [F4/1108] 289 [T14/34:29-35:2];徐文来 WS§51 [WS12/2085]

同时,考虑了窗防护的备选方案。207.1.徐先生的证据是,IO 考虑从发泡胶板转换为瓦楞塑料布。IO 用打火机测试了这种材料的样品,发现它相对于阻燃。但是 PC&E 拒绝用瓦楞纸板代替发泡胶板,理由是瓦楞纸板较硬,现场难以切割。290 207.2. 2024 年 10 月 2 日,何鸿燊私下致电徐先生,询问法办会否考虑在第二期及三期工程中用 2.5 毫米瓦楞塑胶板取代发泡胶板。徐先生回应,要求源发泡胶板 PC&E 能否不容易点燃,并要求何鸿燊电影燃烧试验证明发泡胶板会自动灭火(影段片,烧完会自己熄就可以),在这种情况下不需要证书(不用 cert)。291 207.3. 当被问及这些信息时,徐先生作证说,PC&E 和鸿毅一再告诉他,发泡胶板没有认证系统,这就是他这样提出要求的原因。这些信息显示,他向何鸿燊发送了一个供应商视频的链接,以证明具有阻燃属性的发泡胶板是可商用的。他告诉何鸿燊,PC&E 自己的测试视频不应该像 发泡胶板应该燃烧更长时间,以表明它可以自行熄灭。292

最终,PC&E 在发泡胶板旁边使用了波纹塑料布(但不是代替它们)来保护窗户。根据 PC&E 于 2024 年 10 月 2 日发布的描述外墙维修工作流程的文件:293 208.1. 发泡胶板将首先放置在所有单位的玻璃窗上,以保护它们免受损坏。208.2.位于正在进行外部切割工程的地板上的窗户将通过额外的薄木板或波纹塑料布获得额外的临时保护层。208.3.额外的木板或波纹塑料布将在该特定楼层的工程完成后立即拆除。208.4.相比之下,即使打凿工作完成,发泡胶板也会留在窗口上:参见上面的§140。

大约在这个时候(即 2024 年 10 月初),IO 和 PC&E 同意在第二和第三阶段订购具有改进阻燃性的新批次发泡胶板。294 209.1. PC&E 在 2024 年 10 月 19 日的工作会议上表示,新一批发泡胶板将在下周到达,并且它将对这些板进行燃烧测试。295

290 [T14/31:9-28] 291 [A2/119] 292 [T14/37:12-39:17] 293 [F1/231] 294 [T14/33:23-24] 295 [F1/299]第一期[343]随后,海德将部分新发泡胶板出售给新南方。[344]

  1. 2. 2024 年 10 月 26 日,PC&E 在进一步的工作会议上表示,第二批发泡胶板已经到达,PC&E 用打火机对它们进行了测试,结果表明它们是阻燃。296
  2. 3. 与此同时,有证据显示,在 2024 年 10 月初,承造工程有限公司的姚锦辉先生从其供应商武汉汉塑新材料有限公司处获得了发泡胶板样品。该批次产品有湖北省建材节能检测中心有限公司(简称“湖北省建材节能检测中心”)颁发的所谓阻燃证书作为支持。297
  3. 4. 进一步的发泡胶板在 2024 年 11 月 20 日被收购,当时海德向武汉汉苏订购了发泡胶板。此订单明确为阻燃发泡胶板,单价为 16.5 元/ 0.02m 298,是湖北宇博订购的非阻燃发泡胶板单价的两倍多 299
  4. 5. 盛建的姚锦辉先生于 2024 年 12 月 16 日向武汉汉苏订购了额外的发泡胶板。这些发泡胶板附有所谓的防火证书。300 301
  5. 虽然新批次的发泡胶板打算用于第二期和第三期,但有证据表明,分包商并没有特别注意在现场收集的哪一批发泡胶板用于安装在哪些楼宇。302
  6. 后续批次的发泡胶板用菱形图案压花。如上所述,李博士翼人观察到易燃发泡胶板类型越多,即初始批量浮雕图案的广场在广场(回),更广泛了
  7. 李博士还认为,后续批次的发泡胶板(菱形图案)具有阻燃的性质。303这似乎与一些新批次所附的所谓阻燃证书一致。然而,重要的是要注意,在李博士看来,如果连续的火源应用于

296 [F1/301] 297 [C1-1/797-800]

299 [C1-2/1087-1098] 300 [C1-1/800] 301 [C1-1/799] 302 [T13/34:29-31] 303 [ER2-1/469]

发泡胶板(无论哪种类型),发泡胶板将继续燃烧。袁教授亦认为,发泡胶板一旦被点燃,会产生燃烧液滴及危险的有毒烟雾。304 305 306

  1. 有证据表明,在火灾当天,发泡胶板基本上仍然贴在楼宇各个单元的窗户上,除了:213.1. 根据受雇清洗外墙的分包商提供的证据,宏昌阁(F 座)公寓 2 号和 3 号公寓窗户上的发泡胶板标志在火灾发生前已被拆除,因为外墙的这些部分的工程基本上已经完成,目前正在进行清洁工作。307 213.2. ISS 的钟瑞霞女士(F 座的建筑管理员)从居民那里得知,只有一小部分发泡胶板被移除。308

图 2-7:图片显示发泡胶板和瓦楞塑料布在宏志阁的混合使用(摘自李永文博士的演讲)309

304 袁教授最后专家报告§2.11.9 [ER2-2/1222] 305 [14] [j]。如上所述,波纹塑料布被用来为窗户提供临时的第二层保护,在特定楼层的切割工作完成后将其拆除。此外,李博士的证据是,宏福苑的一些窗户也被半透明的波纹塑料布覆盖。 306 [T25/52:1-6] 307 [T4/47:4-6] 308 [T7/27:1-3] 309 [ER4/2480] 310 [ER4/2481]; [ER2-1/470-471]

D6. 棚架上的可燃垃圾和碎片

  1. 在火灾发生之前,可燃垃圾和碎片在棚架平台和采光井上的堆积一直是一个问题:216.1. 位于起火点正上方的宏昌阁(F 座) 305 单位的居民吴爱诗女士作证说,她在施工期间几乎每天都能听到建筑材料从高处坠落的声音,她的单位外的棚架上散落着建筑垃圾,包括发泡胶板、尼龙条和纸张。311 216.2. 住在宏昌阁号 207 号单位的周志伟先生也描述了他窗外棚架平台上堆积的垃圾。他作证说,工人们经常把马赛克瓷砖上的底纸撕掉,然后从棚架上扔下去, 但从来没有扫过。垃圾堆积在较低的楼层和平顶,就像垃圾场一样。312 216.3. 宏泰阁(E 座) 较低楼层的住户郑景黑先生也发现,他的卧室窗户外有大量垃圾,包括剩余物。他向 PC&E 投诉没有清理垃圾,PC&E 两次清理了垃圾和剩下的发泡胶板。313 216.4. 棚架上堆积的垃圾是人们不断抱怨的根源。IO 和 PC&E 之间的 WhatsApp 组记录了许多此类投诉,包括 2024 年 10 月 3 日(在窗口外留下的发泡胶板), 2024 年 10 月 5 日 314
  2. 5. 2024 年 10 月 7 日,置邦注意到PC&E 同意每周清理一次平屋顶上的垃圾。随后,在 2025 年

9 月 27 日的工程会议上,IO 要求PC&E 每天清理棚架上的垃圾。315 316

  1. 6. 徐文辉先生承认,尽管采取了这些措施,垃圾的堆积仍然存在,这是一个不断重复出现的问题,从未得到彻底解决。317
  2. 火灾前拍摄的照片证实了证人的证据,照片显示棚架上有大量可燃废物。318

311 [t4 /4:1- 4,24 -33] (宏志阁(H 座) [361]平顶垃圾堆积),2024 年 11 月 12 日(宏志阁下一层[362]发现垃圾和烟 头),2025 年 7 月 24 日(棚架上的垃圾[363]), 2025 年 8 月 18 日(瓷砖残留垃圾[364]), 2025 年 8 月 20 日(宏 盛阁(G 座) [365]), 2025 年 9 月 20 日(棚架上的垃圾[366]),2025 年 10 月 8 日(发现工人在棚架上小便和扔垃圾[367])。 312 [T5/30:15-30] 313 [T4/29:18-33] 314 [F4/1119] 315 [H1-3/6117] 316 [F4/1126] 317 [T14/51:25-52:7] 318 [O2/1423-1437]

图 2-8:2025 年 8 月 20 日拍摄的照片(显示纸箱纸、底纸和发泡胶板堆积在棚架平台上)319

图 2-9:从出土的起火点(摘自李永文博士的报告)321拍摄的照片

D7. 工人楼梯通道口(生口)

319 [O2/1435] 320 [T25/31:4-21, 34:17-35:26] 321 [er4/2479] 223。分包商的证据是,PC&E 要求他们每隔五层开一个出入口,除了已经在第十五层开的出入口。例如:

  1. 1. 吴佩钧先生作证说,他受机电指示,每隔五层楼在后楼梯上开一个工人通道,但十五楼的通道已预留。当他询问是否允许创建这些开口时,他被告知可以这样做(嗌)。吴佩钧先生在向警方提供的声明中表示,他在宏昌阁(F 座)开设的入口是在 2024 年 10 月之前开设的。

325 326 223.2. 黄连权先生的证据是,他于 2025 年 1 月 3 日开始在宏仁阁(A 座)的楼梯上制作工人通道口。一位场地经理指示他在第 5 层、第 10 层、第 20 层和第 25 层设置入口,如果他不确定如何设置入口,他应该参考第 15 层已有的入口。327

  1. 因此,工人通道口是在为每个楼宇搭建棚架后不久创建的,并在相当长的一段时间内一直保留到火灾当天。

322 黄连权警方声明[C1-1/843-844] 323 [O2/944] 324 [O2/1081] 325 [C1-1/833] 326 [T13/31:31-32:3] 327 [C1-1/840-841]

图 2-10:工人通道口的照片(摘自 IFITF 最终报告) 328

楼宇 楼梯 位置 宏仁阁 后楼梯 在三楼和四楼之间 前楼梯 在 8 楼和 9 楼之间 后楼梯 15 楼至 16 楼之间 后楼梯 在 19 楼和 20 楼之间 前楼梯 在 24 楼和 25 楼之间 前楼梯 在 28 楼和 29 楼之间 宏道阁 前楼梯 在四楼和五楼之间

328 IFITF 最后报告,图 4-9(a)至(c) [ER1/34]

楼宇 楼梯 位置 前楼梯 在 10 楼和 11 楼之间 楼宇 楼梯 位置 前楼梯 在 20 楼和 21 楼之间 前楼梯 在 26 楼至 27 楼之间 宏新阁 后楼梯 在五楼和六楼之间 前楼梯 在 10 楼和 11 楼之间 后楼梯 15 楼至 16 楼之间 后楼梯 在 19 楼和 20 楼之间 前楼梯 在 24 楼和 25 楼之间 宏建阁 前楼梯 在四楼和五楼之间 后楼梯 在九楼和十楼之间 后楼梯 15 楼至 16 楼之间 后楼梯 在 19 楼和 20 楼之间 前楼梯 在 24 楼和 25 楼之间 宏泰阁和宏昌阁 后楼梯 在五楼和六楼之间 前楼梯 在 10 楼和 11 楼之间 后楼梯 15 楼至 16 楼之间 前楼梯 在 20 楼和 21 楼之间 后楼梯 25 楼至 26 楼之间 宏盛阁 后楼梯 在三楼和四楼之间 后楼梯 在九楼和十楼之间 前楼梯 14 楼至 15 楼 后楼梯 在 19 楼和 20 楼之间

楼宇 楼梯 位置 前楼梯 在 24 楼和 25 楼之间 宏志阁 前楼梯 在四楼和五楼之间 后楼梯 在九楼和十楼之间 前楼梯 14 楼至 15 楼 后楼梯 在 19 楼和 20 楼之间 前楼梯 在 24 楼和 25 楼之间 图 2-11:工人通道口位置总结表(摘自 IFITF 最终报告)329

无论如何,有证据表明,工人通道口对于外墙工程来说是不必要的:226.1. 虽然吴佩权表示, 辟设通道是一种常见做法,但他同意,这只是方便工人的一种措施,并不是进行伐木工程所必需的。330 226.2. 同样,张明海先生也认为,他在外墙上的工作没有必要开入口,这纯粹是为了方便工人。他补充说,许多外部装修没有入口。331

在火灾发生前,没有人向消防处或 ICU 投诉或查询工人通道口的火灾风险。前屋宇署署长刘夫国先生(下称“刘夫国先生”)承认,当时的系统是依靠承建商和专业人士的自我监督,以及居民的投诉,但没有建筑专业知识的居民不会意识到楼梯开口有火警危险或需要投诉。332 333

这是有证据证明的。除了一个例外,证据表明,当时参与其中的人没有意识到火灾的危险。例如:228.1. 吴佩坤先生作证说,他没有理解或理解工人通道口对楼梯的影响是安全的逃生途径()。334 228.2. 徐文辉先生亦表示,虽然有居民质疑是否有必要辟设通道,但335确实有

329 IFITF Final 最终报告[ER1/30] 330 [T13/33:1-9] 331 [T13/41:19-27]没有出现新的管理委员会通道开口会引起火灾危险的情况。[389] 332 [T24/35:29-36] 333 [T17/29:23-27]; [T22/24:35-25:1] 334 [T13/31:24-28] 335 [F4/1178]

  1. 3. 同样,郑子英女士承认 ISS 知道每五层楼的楼梯窗户被改造成入口,但不知道这种做法会引起火灾。336
  2. 关于工人通道口提出消防安全问题的唯一实例来自一个外行人——但是他的查询没有被承建商 或顾问采纳:229.1. 根据 PC&E 与前管理委员会之间的 WhatsApp 群消息,2024 年 8 月 7 日, 自称外行的唐国权先生询问窗口位置是否应该使用阻燃或耐火材料()。337 229.2. Kong b 张 Fat 先生(当时是管理委员会的成员)承认,除了这句话外,所披露的材料显示没有进一步讨论工人通道口的火灾风险。338

D8. 标准防火窗

230. 与工人通道口相关的是用防火窗替换现有楼梯窗的小工程。

在 2019 年 12 月提交的鸿毅检查报告中,指出了建筑物消防安全设施的问题。尤其是威尔

在鸿毅于 2023 年 3 月 27 日发布的最终招标文件中,所有 1 至 31 层逃生楼梯窗户的翻新被列为翻新工程的一部分(项目 7.4A)。339

屋宇署并没有强制要求更换楼梯窗户。因此,是否应该把楼梯窗换成防火窗的问题在居民中进行了投票。

在 2024 年 1 月 28 日的特别会议上,鸿毅解释说,没有强制性要求更换窗户,因为宏福苑尚未收到《消防安全(建筑物)条例》(第 572 章)下的消防安全指示。尽管如此,业主还是以 76.82%的多数票决定用防火窗替换现有的应急楼梯窗户。340

更换具有防火窗(耐火时间不少于 30 分钟)的楼梯窗已正式纳入工程合同(第 4.1 项)。341

336 [T8/26:3-16] 337 [O2/840] 338 [T15/36:8-24] 339 [E1-4/8896]要求建筑专业人员和承建商按指定频率水平进行现场检查。[399] 340 [G1-2/1497] 341 [F1/95]

  1. 3. 另一方面,动机设计由黎家荣先生委任。根据 Motive Design 的说法,实际的窗户更换工作是由 Wealth Pinnacle 进行的。347
  2. 4. 据黎家荣先生介绍,财富顶峰聘请联合建筑事务所提供有关楼梯窗工程的服务。随后,联合建筑事务所聘请他为其服务。他声称已审阅提交独立审查组的意见书,并亲自每周进行实地视察,以核实更换窗户工程大致符合意见书的要求。348
  3. 5. Joseph Chi 先生证实,他是根据一份口头协议被联合建筑事务所聘用的。他声称在提交给

ICU 之前已经核实了图纸和结构计算,并亲自进行了现场视察。349 342 [I1-3/7960] 343 [I1-3/7978] 344 [I1-2/2439, 3126] 345 [I1-2/3808, 4569]; [I1-3/5380, 6215, 7084, 7886] 346 [M1/210-217] 347 [WS21/2375] 348 [WS21/2386-2387] 349 [WS21/2403-2405]

动机设计、志富建筑、黎家荣先生及志尧先生均确认知悉工人通道口: 239.1. 提交给 ICU 的次要作品包含工人通道口的照片。据黎家荣先生说,他从这些意见书中发现,在他参与之前, 一些原有的窗户已经被拆除并被木板覆盖。然而,他声称不知道这些通道的开放可能涉及非法行为, 350 239.2. Joseph Chi 先生在答复委员会时证实,他注意到每五层楼拆掉楼梯窗户。然而,他并不认为这些开口与更换工程前的可开窗有什么不同。351 239.3. 动机设计回复说,当财富顶峰进入网站时,工人通道口已经存在。动机设计意识到通道开口, 但不认为这是一个问题。352志富建筑也意识到通道开口被创建,并指出这是一个常见的程序。 353

楼梯窗的更换工程最初计划分阶段进行。第一期(F - H 座)计划于 2025 年 1 月 20 日展开, 第二期(C - E 座)计划于 2025 年 2 月 24 日展开,第三期(A - B 座)计划于 2025 年 5 月 2 日展开。354

开始进行楼梯窗工程的第一个记录是在 2025 年 2 月 21 日的进度报告中,其中“更换楼梯窗”列在“FS 装置改善工程”下,据称第一期工程已完成 25%。355

到 2025 年 3 月 29 日,一份进度报告显示,除了第一期的工人通道口楼层外,楼梯窗更换工程基本完成。356

第二期楼梯窗更换工程在 2025 年 4 月 12 日的进度报告中首次列为“将于未来两周内进行的工程”。截至 2025 年 6 月 7 日进度报告时,除工人通道口楼层外,第二期楼梯更换工程已基本完成。357 358

350 E.g. [I1-3/7971] 351 [WS21/2406-2407] 352 [WS21/2378] 353 [WS21/2367] 354 [F1/189-191] 355 [M1/1131] 356 [M1/1170] 357 [M1/1252]

D9. 水箱工程

246. 争议的焦点是每栋楼的屋顶水箱(包括 FS 水箱)的翻新工程。

(i)初步规划水缸工程

  1. 在宏福苑中,每个楼宇的屋顶包含三个公共水箱,分别是消防缸,一个淡水水箱(缸)和一个咸水水箱或冲洗水箱(缸)。
  2. 鸿毅在 2019 年 12 月提交的检验报告中,发现屋顶水箱存在缺陷,包括水箱内壁严重锈斑和裂缝,FS 水箱水银浮子开关生锈。因此建议修理水箱。 362
  3. “所有公共混凝土水箱”(缸)的翻新工程随后被列入最终招标文件363的清单工程(项目 7.3A) 的一部分,并被保留为工程合同(项目 6.2A)的清单工程的一部分。364
  4. 工程合同中的具体规范规定,除另有规定外,水箱的防水和瓷砖工程的范围包括所有屋顶公共水箱,包括淡水水箱、冲洗水箱和 FS 水箱(www.hkhkhk.gov.hk.缸,www.hkhkhk.gov.hk. 缸,www.hkhk.gov.hk.缸)。365

358 [m1/1209] [au:]有证据表明,火灾当天,许多金融安全研究所都没有发挥作用。以下各节将探讨金融服务局储罐的翻新是如何导致金融服务局关闭的。 359 [M1/1292] 360 [M1/1239] 361 [T25/23:20-34] 362 [1-2/1891, 2567, 3255, 3987];[1-3/4748, 5585, 6446, 7286]将现有的饰面、批荡和防水层切割到混凝土表面(凿) 363 [E1-4/8895] 364 工程合约第 7 部第 6.2A 项[F1/101-102] 365 工程合约第 6 部第 13 条[F1/79]

252. 水箱维修的关键步骤涉及如下:366 至混凝土面);

252.2. 在完成此步骤后,使用防水层()进行水测试;和

252.3. 所有储罐表面均贴有白色琉璃瓦(缸)。

在这方面,委员会可注意到钟杰文的建议,即 FS 水箱没有必要铺上白色琉璃瓦,而这通常是用于卫生目的的淡水储罐所需要的。在这个节骨眼上对这一点作出结论是没有必要的。值得注意的是,FS 水箱的铺砖和防水是工程合约下商定工程的一部分。 367

254. 储罐的维修工作最初计划于 2024 年 12 月 2 日开始。368

PC&E 在 2024 年 11 月 13 日由 IO, ISS 和鸿毅参加的工程会议上指出,应首先进行 FS 水箱的翻新工程,然后是盐水和淡水储罐。这是为了允许 FS 水箱(一旦翻新)作为临时的淡水储罐,而原始的淡水储罐正在维修())。369

因此,考虑到消防水罐的储水功能在消防水罐本身的翻新期间之后将继续暂停。但没有解决的问题是暂停将持续多久。370

孔炳发同意,当时并没有讨论是否有必要将 FS 水缸改为临时食水缸,也没有讨论是否可以另设一个临时水缸。Mr Tsui Moon Come Tony 也承认这些事情没有被考虑。尽管 PC&E 有合同义务在必要时提供一个临时水箱,但371和鸿毅早前表示可以提供一个纤维临时水箱。372 373 374

366 工程合约第 7 部第 6.2A 项[F1/101] 367 [T6/13:36-14:4, 15:13-15] 368 [F1/189] 369 [H1-3/6034];亦有乐善营的证据[T7/3:32-36];(T7/4:1-2) 370 [T15/39:36-40:13] 371 工程合约第 6 部第 13 条[F1/79] 372 [T15/18:12-23, 39:22-25] 373 [T15/39:29-35]暂时停止运作,关闭通知将提交消防处。[434] 374 [T14/44:3-10]

在 2025 年 3 月 15 日的工程会议上,PC&E 表示他们将继续进行 FS 水箱翻新工程(估计持续

1.5 个月)。375

(ii)水缸工程的展开及进度

FS 水箱的维修由PC&E 的两个分包商进行,每个分包商处理四个区块:红太阳(B, C, D 和 E)和天雄工程公司(A, F, G 和H)。

在 2025 年 3 月 29 日由 IO, 鸿毅, PC&E, ISS 和一些居民参加的工程会议上,PC&E 报告说, FS 水箱翻新工程将于 2025 年 4 月 7 日开始在宏泰阁和宏志阁 (E 座和 H 座)进行。据报道, FS 坦克会

从现有的 PC&E 进度报告中可以看出,“水箱防水”在 2025 年 4 月 26 日首次被列为“将在未来两周内进行的工程”,用于第一期和第二期。376

到 2025 年 7 月 19 日,位于王金、王台、王城和宏志阁 (D、E、G 和H 座)的 FS 水箱的改造工程已经达到了水测试阶段(www.gov.hk 缸 gov.hk)。进度报告显示,王涛和宏新阁 (B 座和 C 座)FS 水箱的翻新工程已经开始。377

在 2025 年 8 月 30 日举行的工程会议上,IO、鸿毅、PC&E、ISS 和部分居民出席。PC&E 和鸿毅报告说,王城和宏志阁 (G 座和 H 座)的 FS 水箱翻新工程已经完成,他们将与 ISS 商讨安排将 FS 水箱改装为临时淡水水箱。他们报告说,王健、王泰和宏昌阁 (D 至 F 座)的 FS 坦克翻新工程仍在进行中。378

该报告与 2025 年 9 月 13 日的进度报告一致。2025 年 9 月 27 日的进度报告是 PC&E 最后一次在正式进度报告中报告 FS 坦克改造进度。379 380

375 [H1-3/6077] 376 [M1/1220] 377 [M1/1271] 378 [H1-3/6113] 379 [M1/1315];进度报告记录王盛和宏志阁的 FS 水箱(G 座和 H 座)的翻新工程已经完全完成(已铺上白色琉璃瓦),王金和宏泰阁的 FS 水箱(D 座和 E 座)的水测试(操作水)已经完成。

  1. 1. 王涛、王孙、王金、王台、宏盛阁座 FS 水箱(B、C、D、E、G 座)改造工程已全部完成。
  1. 2. 王岩、王畅、宏志阁(A、F、H 座)有优秀的作品,包括批荡面漆()和白釉瓷砖的瓷砖。

381

  1. 3. 尽管仍在进行工程,但所有的 FS 水箱都在某个时间点进行了水测试。

380 [m1/1305]警方在 PC&E 临时办公室检获的文件包括一份日期为 2025 年 11 月 19 日的内部工程进度报告。报告记录了 FS 坦克工程的进一步进展:[441] [440] 381 值得注意的是,截至 2025 年 9 月 27 日,宏志阁(H 座)号 FS 水箱的翻新工程被记录为完全完成,而 2025 年 11 月 19 日同一区块的未完成工程被记录为未完成。如下所述,似乎随后在宏志阁的 FS 水箱中发现了漏水。 382 吕仕龙[C1-2/1179]及吴日照[C1-2/1191]警方口供 383 同兴纶 WS§6 [WS2/1542] 384 [H6/6820-6834]

排干,并开始铺瓦工程。268.4.如前所述,所有 FS 坦克都在 2025 年 11 月 19 日之前的某个 时间点进行了水测试。这些照片很可能是在这些试验期间拍摄的。 385 386

D10. FSI 关闭

这些听证会的中心问题之一涉及火灾当天金融服务系统的关闭,特别是火警警报系统(“FAS”) 和消防栓/软管卷(“栓/辘”)(“FH/HR”)系统。每个区块配备一个 FAS 和 FH/HR 系统。

FSI 系统的机制已在 FSD 的宏福苑 FSI 报告中描述。387该账户与黄健华提供的以下总结一致, 宏泰消防雇用的电工:270.1. 在每一层的走廊上都有一个火警警铃和一个玻璃破碎呼叫点 (扲)。打碎玻璃会启动消防增压泵运行,并发出警铃(泵)。每层楼道都有一个软管卷轴 (辘)。在每层楼的后楼梯上也有一个消防栓出口(栓),当发生火灾时,消防队员用它在楼梯上取水。388 270.2. 地下一层有两个泵房:(i)一个泵房(泵)容纳淡水和盐水上送泵以及 FS 上送泵(泵),后者从地下一层 FS 中抽取水,向屋顶上的 FS 水箱补充水 装有两个 FS 增压泵(泵),用于提高消防用 FH/HR 系统中的水压。389

在 FS 泵房中,有一个主控面板和一个相邻的包含主电源开关的盒子(泵/)。

385 [T9/3:31-5:15];同兴纶 WS§5 [WS2/1542] 268.5. 为了完整起见,根据消防处在 2025 年 11 月 28 日至 12 月 1 日期间的检查,观察到 FS 水箱除 Wang Tao 和宏盛阁(block B 和G)外均为空。[448] 386 [C4/2359] 387 [ER2-4/1800-1806] 388 [T5/42:17-30];水来自消防处的设备,这些设备通过位于每幢建筑物地下的消防处进水口向建筑物供水[ER2- 4/1804]。 389 [T5/42:25-45:11]

图 2-12 宏仁阁 390 FS 泵房主控面板(左)和总电源开关(右)照片

  1. 1. 据黄建华先生介绍,总开关为警铃、碎玻璃呼叫点以及安全系统增压泵供电。换句话说,关闭主电源开关使FAS 和 FS 增压泵都失效。391
  2. 2. 宏泰消防的主任钟吉文博士大致同意黄先生的证据,但他补充说,FS 泵房的总开关只控制

FS 增压泵和 FAS,而不控制上行泵(在另一个泵房)。392

  1. 3. 消防处的证据(通过助理署长(牌照和认证)姜世明)也表明,FAS 和 FH/HR 系统的总开关是相同的。393
  2. 为了进行 FS 水箱维修工程,FS 水箱必须排水。大量证据表明,关闭主电源开关——以及与之配套的 FAS——并不需要达到这个目的:272.1. 钟洁文博士的证据是必须关闭升压泵,但并不一定要关闭 FS 增压泵。然而,在实践中,FS 增压泵通常也会被关闭,因为运行 FS 增压泵会损坏它。394 272.2. 要关闭 FS 增压泵,不需要关闭主电源开关。黄建华先生解释说,消防

390 [C1-2/1524] 391 [T5/50:17-18] 392 [T6/7:15-20] 393 [T10/6:6-8] 394 [T6/16:4-25];钟博士举了一个例子,在没有供水的情况下,有人打碎一个玻璃破碎装置,就可以启动 FS 增压泵。

泵房的主控制面板有一个水泵 1 隔离开关和一个水泵 2 隔离开关,使两个消防增压泵分别独立关闭。395

图 2-13 宏志阁 FS 泵房主控面板特写(绿色标注)396

  1. 3. 助理局长姜世明还作证说,排空 FS 水箱只需要关闭 FS 增压泵的泵隔离开关(泵),而不需要关闭主电源开关。姜锦洪同意,这是一个RFSIC 的基本知识。397
  2. 另一方面,ISS 的电工罗国瑞持有不同的理解:273.1. 罗启光明白,排空油缸需要三个步骤: 关闭泵房的上水泵、松开排水阀的手轮,然后关闭油缸泵房的总电源开关()。398
  3. 2. 罗启光认为,必须关掉空勤队泵房的总电源开关,以防止空勤队增压泵干涸。重要的是,他不知道关闭主电源开关也会禁用 FAS,他也不知道 FS 增压泵可以通过主控制面板上的泵隔离开关关闭。399

395 [T5/48:18-49:13] 396 [C1-2/1641] 397 [T10/9:25-28, 10:2-4];亦作姜世明 WS§10.3 [WS1/138] 398 Law Kwok Shui WS§21 [WS2/1234] 276.2. 其中一份工作命令是由乐善英女士(hk: hkhk)发出的 399 [T7/46:16-34]

由于罗先生并无资格操作消防站,所以消防处及宏泰消防有关关闭消防站增压泵的正确方法的证据是优先考虑的。

罗国水先生承认,他是根据他对排水系统水箱所需步骤的理解而采取行动(消防处和宏泰消防的证据表明,他的理解是错误的),关闭了所有八个大楼的消防系统泵房的总电源开关。 400

罗先生执行排 FS 水箱的工作,因为他收到置邦的“工作命令”,要求他协助 PC&E 排 FS 水箱: 276.1. 根据李盛富先生(ISS 的木匠)的说法,在 2025 年 5 月至 8 月期间,管理处发出了 8 份工作命令,指示 ISS 工程部的同事协助PC&E 排放 FS 水箱存水。401 盈),指示置邦工务部门的工作人员将 FS 抽干 2025 年 7 月 14 日在宏道阁(B 座)。402

  1. 3. 由于水系统水缸是水系统/人力资源系统的一部分,水系统水缸的排水工作应由水系统污水处理中心负责,而不是由不合格的人员负责。罗国瑞先生接受李盛富先生告诉他,只有本地服务提供者才能操作水罐,而这符合他自己的理解。他声称,他曾向管理处的乐善英女士询问他是否适合在没有牌照的情况下操作 FS 储油罐,而她只是指示他协助 PC&E。403
  2. 4. 陆女士给出了不同的说法。他们相互竞争的账户、角色和责任将在第 6 章中讨论。 404

泵房的总电源开关即可。 400 [T7/50:8-17];罗国水 WS 第 22 条[WS2/1234] 401 [T7/36:32-35]; [C1-2/1265-1267] 402 [C1-2/1267] 403 [T7/47:25-48:29]. 404 [T6/81:16-17].

405 [T5/66:4-67:24]

第 3 章火灾当日

A. 起火位置及火灾发现经过

图 3-1:宏昌阁后部自行车棚上方摄像头拍摄的闭路电视静止图像(14:33:00)408

406 IFITF 最终报告§6.1.9 [ER1/74];IFITF 最终报告§7.3.2.1 [ER1/113] 283。监控摄像头的位置如下图所示(CCTV 4 号摄像头)。 407 根据警方提供的资料[A2/5],监控录像中显示的时间比实际时间提前了 42 秒。

图 3-2:CCTV 摄像机409位置示意图

图 3-3:宏昌阁后部自行车棚上方摄像头拍摄的闭路电视静止画面(14:43:00,14:45:30)410

吗?”(你食烟咋嘛). 过了一会儿,有人问:“它在哪里?”(边个位置啫?) “谁负责那个区域?”(边个做个位?). 411

  1. 与此同时,工人们继续工作和交谈。直到 14:46:45,他们才终于意识到形势的严重性。尖叫声不绝于耳。14 时 48 分,灰尘、烟雾和火焰笼罩了整个地区。视频在 14:48:03 终止。

图 3-4:在 14:47:56 和 14:47:59 412, 宏昌阁 5 - 6 层后楼梯外的摄像头拍摄到的 CCTV 静止画面

411 火灾期间,闭路电视录像被损坏,导致音频和视频输入不同步。视频提要的时间戳基于视频上显示的时间戳, 而音频提要的时间戳基于实际播放时间。

图 3-5:叶辉先生于 14:50,14:53 414拍摄的静止影像

委员会没有收到任何其他录像或照片表明在宏昌阁(F 座)有一个备选起火位置。IFITF 证人李永文博士证实,没有发现其他可能的起火地点(见下文第 4 章)。结论很明确:火灾开始于宏昌阁的 104 和 105 公寓外的平屋顶。 415 414 [A2/8, 10]

消防处迅速作出反应。第一辆消防车于 14:56:22 到达现场,距离消防处于 14:51:17 首次接到报警后 5 分 5 秒。消防操作将在下面的第 5 章中详细说明。 416

B. 宏昌阁(F 座)火势迅速蔓延

图 3-6:叶辉先生和其他路人拍摄的视频的静态图像,转载于集成电路专家报告419

415 [T25/41:14-24] 416 [b13/5734 - 5735] 417 IC 专家报告§3.3.2 [ER3/2168] 418 [A2/11, 12] 419 IC 专家报告图 3-4 [ER3/2169]

图 3-7:叶辉先生拍摄的视频的静态图像(14:56:58,14:57:38 和 14:57:57)420

许健安(“SStnO Hui”)的证据是,这些燃烧的物品堆积起来,堵塞了宏昌阁面向岛屋巷的后门。 421

在 15:02 左右,大火吞噬了宏昌阁上 6 号和 7 号422公寓之间的第二个重返者。

图 3-8:从 15:02 到 15:08 之间拍摄的视频的静态图像,在 IC 专家报告423中复制 424

420 [A2/11, 12] 421 Hui Kin On WS §10 [WS2/989] 422 IC 专家报告§3.3.3 [ER3/2169] 423 IC 专家报告图 3-5 [ER3/2169] 424 [A2/13, 14]

图 3-9:叶辉先生拍摄的静止影像(15:04:35)426

图 3-10:来自宏昌阁第三次再入火视频的静态图像,在 IC 专家报告428中转载

425 [T5/4:6-19] 426 [C1-1/475] 427 IC 专家报告§3.3.4 [ER3/2169]

根据 IFITF 的调查结果,大约 15:05,倒塌的燃烧的竹子挡住了宏昌阁的正门。15:09 的静态图像证实,入口外的区域迅速变成了一个巨大的地狱(见上面的图 3-8)。429 430

前入口和后出口是宏昌阁中唯一的逃生途径。到 15:05,两条路线都被燃烧的碎片堵塞

这些迅速高耸的火柱并不是孤立的事件。它们在宏福苑重新进入的轨道上共发生了 12 次。委员会专家乌斯马尼教授认为,在重大建筑火灾的历史上,这种蔓延速度是前所未有的。其中一次重返大气层的火焰达到了每秒 10 米的最大速度。相比之下,格伦费尔大厦的火势以每分钟 8 米的速度蔓延。431

C. 火势蔓延至其他楼宇

C1. 宏泰阁(E 座)

  1. 在接到第一个紧急呼叫后的几分钟内,火势向西蔓延到宏泰阁(E 座),这是西边最近的邻近楼宇。闭路电视摄像机早在 14:58 就捕捉到了宏泰阁屋顶上冒烟的碎片。

428 IC 专家报告图 3-6 [ER3/2170]参见 IC 专家报告[ER6/2690]。在第一个紧急报警电话发出不到 15 分钟后,逃离的居民面临着一个不可逾越的障碍。 429 据宏志阁(H 座)号 1607 单位外的建筑工人曾家乐先生说,大约在这个时候,一个黑色燃烧物体也落在回旋处的建筑废物收集点上,并将其点燃[ER2-1/703]。 430 IFITF 最终报告§10.3.3 [ER1/208];惠建安 WS§§14-15 [WS2/990] 431 [T27/49:14-20]

图 3-11:宏泰阁屋顶的闭路电视画面(14:58:39)432

大约 15 时许,sst Hui 也观察到宏泰阁东侧的棚架上有火焰斑点。433

宏泰阁和宏昌阁正门之间的空地很快就亮了起来。15 点 11 分,位于入口处的闭路电视摄像机捕捉到金属门反射出明亮的火焰。在 15:11 到 15:18 之间,雾霾和烟雾逐渐充满了开阔的区域。434

图 3-12:宏泰阁正门外的闭路电视画面(15:09:11,15:16:03)435

432 [A2/16] 433 [T11/15:26-33] 434 监控录像中的时间戳比参考时间[ER1/178]晚了大约 2 分钟。 435 [C6/2440]

图 3-13:来自宏泰阁的再入火焰视频的静态图像,在 IC 专家报告436中复制

图 3-14:宏泰阁自行车棚内的闭路电视画面(15:17:02)438

436 IC 专家报告图 3-7 [ER3/2170]火焰继续吞噬着宏泰阁前门外的区域。15 点 21 分左右,前门被火焰完全封锁,闭路电视画面也在此时终止。 437 监控录像中的时间戳比参考时间[A2/5]晚了大约 1 分钟。 438 [A2/63]

图 3-15:宏泰阁正门外的闭路电视画面(15:19:17)439

C2. 宏盛阁(G 座)

439 [C6/2440]。镜头中显示的时间比参考时间晚了大约 2 分钟[ER1/178]。 440 IFITF 最终报告§10.3.3 [ER1/208]

图 3-16:15:09 左右441在宏建阁外拍摄的宏盛阁和宏昌阁的视频片段的静止图像

证人证词表明,火势可能比照片证据显示的更早达到宏盛阁。早在 15 时,黄伟森先生便观察到棚网的燃烧碎片从宏昌阁(F 座)漂移,并在宏盛阁(G 座)上点燃火焰。谢玉华女士和叶嘉葵先生证实了这一点,他们都作证说看到燃烧的碎片和棚网从宏昌阁飞出来,并在15:05 降落在宏盛阁上。442

消防处的前线观察证实,火情已于 15 时 20 分蔓延至宏盛阁。林健钧(新界南消防处副处长) 为 IFITF 作证时证实,这一观测结果代表了火势蔓延的最新时间。443 444

313. 在宏盛阁点,火势迅速垂直蔓延的时间要晚得多,大约在 16:22 分。

C3. 其他模块

441 [IE4/1510] 442 [T3/40:24-29]; [T5/3:26-36] 443 [T25/28:13-15] 444 IFITF 最终报告§5.2.4.1 [ER1/60]

图 3-17:闭路电视拍摄的宏新阁屋顶的静止图像(15:12:21)和在广福村拍摄的视频片段,大约 15:25 445朝向宏新阁

消防处的前线观察结果一致证实,大火在 15 时 25 分前已蔓延至宏新阁。446

宏新阁的第一次快速重返火灾发生在大约半小时后,在 2 号和 3 号公寓楼之间。目击者在 16 点拍摄的视频片段显示,火焰在大约 1.5 分钟的时间内爬上了整个 31 层楼的高度。

进一步的火柱在 16:36(在 Flats 1 和 8 之间)和 16:43(在 Flats 4 和 5 之间)上升到宏新阁。

445 [A2/21, 23] 446 IFITF 最终报告§5.2.4.1 [ER1/60]

图 3-18:从宏新阁以外捕获的视频片段中截取的静态图像,在 IC 专家报告447中转载

318. 在 16:45 左右,竹棚架从宏新阁坠落到下面的地面上。448

447 IC 专家报告图 3-8 [ER3/2171] 448 [C11/2603] 449 [T5/32:11-30]

图 3-19:在广福村拍摄的静止影像,朝向宏建阁(D 座) 450

  1. 3. 消防处的前线观察证实,火情已于 15 时 25 分蔓延至宏建阁。451

450 [A2/22] 451 IFITF 最终报告§5.2.4.1 [ER1/60] 452 再循环区是流体速度局部反转方向并形成循环回路的区域。气流不是向下游移动,而是逆流而上,形成了一个类似旋涡的结构。 453 IFITF 最终报告§7.3.2.6 [ER1/117] 454 [ER2-1/635]解释了为什么宏建阁在很大程度上没有受到火灾的损害,详见下文。 455 IFITF 最终报告§5.2.4.1 [ER1/60]

图 3-20:从宏道阁和宏仁阁的火灾视频片段中拍摄的静态图像,在 IC 专家报告456中转载

图 3-21:在 19:00:00 457的 i-Cable 新闻镜头的静态图像

C4. 关于火灾向外蔓延的观察

324. 可以对火灾的蔓延进行一些概括性的观察。

456 IC 专家报告图 3-9 [ER3/2171] 457 [A2/26]

图 3-22:宏福苑垂直火灾示意图,摘自 IC 专家 2026 年 6 月 25 日458的演讲

(F 座)北部的宏志阁(H 座)完全没有受到火灾的影响。IFITF 基于 CFD 模型的模拟显示, 当天风并没有将余烬带向宏志阁。459 宏建阁(D 座)发现自己处于宏新阁(C 座)和宏泰阁 (E 座)之间的再循环区,460也遭受了相对最小的损害。 458 [ER6/2685];有关对宏道阁(B 座)平面数字的微小更正,请参见[ER8/2750] 459 IFITF Final Report§7.3.2.4 [ER1/117]入口直接连接到宏昌阁的楼梯。[525] 460 IFITF 最终报告§7.3.2.6 [ER1/117]

D. 各楼宇内部状况及逃生途径

D1. 宏昌阁(F 座)内部条件

快速重新进入的火灾与内部破坏程度之间存在显著的相关性。在宏福苑遭受严重或极其严重 火灾损害的 562 个单位中,518 个单位(92%)位于重新进入的附近,观察到火势迅速蔓延。 461

电梯大堂走廊的情况也与走廊连接的重新进入通道的火势迅速蔓延密切相关。因此,可以合理地推断,连接被火柱吞没的凹入位的楼梯也会迅速被烟雾和热量穿透。设法逃离火灾的住户的证词证实了这一推断。 462

宏昌阁(F 座)的居住者证实,可供逃跑的窗口非常有限。在发现火灾的几分钟内,烟雾弥漫在单个公寓、公共走廊和楼梯上:330.1. 到 14:59,4 号和 5 号公寓外的东部重新通道内的快速垂直火力已经完全发展起来。关键是,这个重 330.2. 此外,到 15 点 05 分,一楼的逃生途径被坠落的碎片堵塞。463

在宏昌阁大厦当值的大厦护工钟穗厦女士表示,她最初是由一名并非宏昌阁住户的人士向她 发出火警警报,而该名人士亦非身穿 PC&E 制服的建筑工人。当她到达楼宇后面时,她看到104 号和 105 号公寓外的平屋顶上有小火焰。随后,她通过对讲机向管理处通报了火灾情况。 464

将钟女士的证词与叶辉先生拍摄的录像(465)和乐善英女士在接到钟女士的报告后不久于 14:52 拨打 999 的证据(466)进行对比,可以推断钟女士在 14:50 左右首次得知火灾。

发现火情后,钟女士随即返回宏昌阁启动火警。由于大堂没有碎玻璃板,她上了 1 楼,但没能触发警报。然后她又上到三楼去拿破碎的玻璃板,但同样没有成功。上楼时,楼梯上还没

461 IFITF 最终报告§8.3.1.2 [ER1/132] 462 姚门杨 4 号WS§32 [WS6/1853] 463 Hui Kin On WS §§14-15 [WS2/990] 464 [T7/31:4-32:8] 465 [A2/10] 466 [WS2/1227]

有烟,但她能听到噼里啪啦的声音,看到窗外有火焰。当她到达 3 楼时,烟雾已经开始从更 高的楼层充满楼梯,可能来自 5 楼楼梯上的工人通道口。于是她回到大堂,向郑子英女士报告情况。她继续疏散居民,直到大厅

  1. 单元(起火点正上方)的居民谢玉华女士作证说,在火灾的最初阶段,烟雾开始从厨房窗户渗透进来。根据她当时拍摄的照片,这发生在 14:53 左右。当谢女士打开前门去清除公寓里的烟雾时,她发现公共走廊开始变得雾蒙蒙的。当她在 15 点左右离开公寓时,楼梯已经被烟雾笼罩,窗外可以看到巨大的火焰,墙壁正在辐射热量。当她离开大楼时,浓烟从大厅滚滚而出,弥漫到周围地区。467

467 [T3/38:26-40:29]

图 3-23:谢玉华女士于 14:53 468于 204 单位拍摄的静止影像

468 [IE3/1362] 469 [T4/18:2-19:11]

图 3-24:高仪吕女士于 15 时 03 分在472外拍摄

470 [T4/6:25-8:3] 471 [T3/42:32-44:11] 472 [IE3/1167]

下降到 30%到 40%。楼梯井里的情况非常糟糕,当他在 14 点 57 分左右到达 14 楼时,他被迫暂时离开楼梯喘口气。473

  1. 据李先生说,在他待在 14 楼的大约 30 秒内,楼梯被黑烟吞没,无法进入。观察到电梯仍在运行,他决定使用电梯代替,并在 15:01 退出宏昌阁。474
  2. 最终,很少有人能够从宏昌阁成功撤离。谢玉华女士作证说,她除了在一楼楼梯口遇见一名老妇人外,并没有在楼梯口或一楼大堂遇见其他人。高宜吕女士也作证说,她乘电梯到一楼时没有遇到任何人。475陈传乔先生下楼时遇到另一名从楼梯逃跑的居民,但他表示,当他到达地下大堂时,周围几乎没有人,他只数了不到 10 人从宏昌阁逃跑。由于浓烟和大火迅速蔓延,绝大多数人被困在大楼内。 476 477
  3. 单位的住户周志伟先生作证说,他第一次注意到起火是在 15 时左右,当时他所在单位的一扇窗户开始发出红色的红光,并从他的单位外面发出巨大的噼啪声。这是可以解释的,因为他的公寓与第二个被火柱吞没的重返者相邻。过了一会儿,盖在他主卧室窗户上的发泡胶板着火了,玻璃窗碎了。他试图用莲蓬头灭火,但最终不得不逃离。当他和他的妻子离开他们的公寓时,公共走廊已经被烟雾笼罩到了令人难以忍受的地步。离他们公寓最近的楼梯也无法通行。他们被邻居李卓林先生(Li Cheuk Lim)救出,他把他们安置在自己的公寓里,直到他们最终被消防员救出(大约 17:00)。478
  4. 当时在宏昌阁 2703 单位外工作的瓷砖工人黄祖莲女士和姚顺友先生作证说,他们

473 [IE2-2/1094-1095] 474 [IE2-2/1094-1095]听到工人们大喊“着火了!”,就跑到 4 号公寓附近的噪声源去调查。他们闻到了烟味,看到浓 烟从入口升起。他们决定爬上棚架逃到屋顶。当他们到达屋顶时,他们看到 4 号和 5 号公寓之间的入口有浓浓的火焰和烟雾。他们试图打开通往楼梯的门,但门已经被黑烟吞没,无法进入。因此,他们呆在屋顶上等待救援,第二天救援就开始了。[543] 475 [T3/44:12-19] 476 [T3/40:3-5] 477 [T4/19:15-17, 20:3-23] 478 [T5/28:11-30:1]

479 [T4/55:6-26] 480 [A2/45] 481 [T5/25:18-26] 482 李国雄 WS§§6-8 [WS2/1377];(T13/48:13-52:33)

图 3-25:平面 2603 483内的闭路电视画面

图 3-26:14:54:15 和 15:00:23 从486 15 楼 CCTV 录像中截取的静止图像,由 The Collective 转载

483 [O1/259]; [O2/1727-1728] 484 [C6/2456-2459] 485 [C6/2463-2465] 486 [A2/46]

大约有 20 人能够在没有帮助的情况下从宏昌阁撤离,没有 10 楼以上的居民能够通过楼梯 撤离。消防处仅从宏昌阁救出 32 名住户。

D2. 宏泰阁(E 座)内部条件

  1. 一旦火势蔓延,宏泰阁(E 座)同样经历了可持续性条件的迅速恶化。但相对于宏昌阁(F

座),居民的逃生时间相对较多。

图 3-27:宏泰阁电梯内闭路电视静止图像,显示 17 楼走廊情况(15:03:49 488

487 [T5/1:32-2:27] 488 [A2/49] 489 [T5/14:1-15:24]

490 [T5/14:19-25] 491 姚门杨 4 号WS§§27-29 [WS6/1849-1850] 492 录像的时间可以通过交叉比对录像中出现的个人和电梯里的闭路电视监控录像来确定。

图 3-28:橙报493上传的 31 层电梯大堂窗口视频画面

493 [A2/41] 494 监控录像记录的时间戳比参考时间晚了 2 分钟:IFITF 最终报告 fn 123 [ER1/178]

图 3-29:宏泰阁电梯内闭路电视静止图像显示的地下大厅情况(15:14:50,15:18:19,15:18:49) 495

358.2. 楼电梯大堂走廊(15:16、15:19):

495 [A2/49-50]

图 3-30:宏泰阁电梯内闭路电视静止图像显示 18 楼走廊情况(15:14:02,15:17:24) 496

358.3. 楼电梯大堂走廊(15:17、15:20)

图 3-31:宏泰阁电梯内闭路电视静止图像显示 27 楼走廊情况(15:15:31,15:18:04) 497

到 15 点 21 分,多个楼层的公共走廊显然无法维持,因为走廊和电梯本身都被烟雾所笼罩。

359.1.23 层电梯大堂走廊(15:21):

496 [A2/50] 497 [A2/50]

图 3-32:宏泰阁电梯内闭路电视静止图像,显示 23 楼走廊情况(15:19:25) 498

359.2. 楼电梯大堂走廊(15:21):

图 3-33:宏泰阁电梯内闭路电视静止图像,显示 24 楼走廊情况(15:19:29) 499

498 [A2/49] 499 [A2/50]

图 3-34:500在 15:13:45 和 15:18:30 在 2407 平面闭路电视录像中的静止图像

图 3-35:501在 15:16:23 的平板 2906 上拍摄的静态图像

  1. 1. 宏泰阁的正门和后门分别在 15:20 和 15:30 左右被燃烧的碎片堵塞。502 362.2. 到 15:30,

500 [C19/2847-2854] 501 [C20/2871] 502 IFITF 最终报告§10.3.3 [ER1/208]

第三个火柱吞没了 4 号和 5 号公寓之间的西通道。这个可重入式直接连接到宏泰阁的楼梯。 503

图 3-36:505在 15:16:10 和 15:17:12 在 Flat 1006 的闭路电视录像中的静止图像

503 IFITF 最终报告§9.3.2.4 [ER1/197] 504 [T4/21:12-26:26] 505 [A2/48]

  1. 2. 当他们在公寓里等待救援时,烟雾渗入了客厅和厨房,迫使他们撤退到厕所和卧室。他们最终在 20 点左右获救。当消防队员破门而入时,一股辐射热涌进了房间。当他们被消防队员抬下楼梯时,热水从楼梯井里冲下来,栏杆滚烫。506
  2. 3. 单位的单善兴女士作证说,她在下午 3 时左右准备离开单位时,看到走廊上冒出黑烟。因此, 她决定留在自己的公寓里等待救援。烟雾继续从门框的缝隙中渗入她的公寓。她打开电扇, 把烟吹出窗外。在此期间,她注意到由于隔壁公寓的高温,她墙上的油漆开始开裂。当她最 终被消防队员救出时,走廊里一片漆黑,非常热。她发现邻近的一套公寓已经完全被烧毁, 前门上有一个相当大的洞。507
  3. 4. 住在 1907 号楼的李振浩先生,就他的母亲叶碧仪女士、哥哥李振文先生、侄女李彦荣女士 和他们的家庭佣工 Erawati 女士所遭受的磨难,提供了证词,他们都不幸在火灾中丧生。他 第一次打电话给他的母亲大约是在 16 点,当时她告诉他,他们的公寓充满了浓烟。随后, 李先生和其他家庭成员每 15 分钟给叶女士打一次电话,其间她注意到她的公寓没有水电供应。在一次视频通话中,Lee 看到他的兄弟在黑暗的公寓里拍着他们的母亲,让她保持清醒。在大约 21:30 与母亲的最后一次通话中,他听到了母亲的呼救声,并在屏幕上目睹了弟弟的倒下。在此期间,李先生多次请求消防员和现场警察的帮助,但被告知消防员无法进入 14 楼以外的地方。508
  4. 5. 委员会亦收到袁玲议员提供的书面证据,她于火灾当日与郑海扬先生、任婷女士及任权女士 在 3008 单位参加朋友聚会。这四个人发现火灾时,他们观察到大量的烟雾沿着建筑物的外 部上升。他们打电话给管理办公室询问烟雾,并被告知没有必要担心,因为火灾是在宏昌阁, 留在他们的公寓是安全的。大约 5 分钟后,他们的公寓外面出现了火焰,烟雾开始从厨房窗 户渗入公寓。因此,他们决定离开该处。509

506 [T4/21:12-26:26] 507 [T4/12:11-15:14] 508 [T13/1:29-3:34] 509 [IE2-1/617-619]

  1. 6. 到达楼梯后,他们看到浓烟和火花从较低的楼层上升,促使他们切换到另一个楼梯,虽然很黑,但站住脚。韩女士和郑先生到达屋顶,并于翌日凌晨二时获救。在此过程中,他们与任婷女士和任权女士失散,任婷女士和任权女士不幸在火灾中丧生。510

D3. 宏建阁(D 座)内部条件

宏建阁(D 座)保持相对无烟状态,并且维持的时间明显更长。如上所述,宏建阁没有经历任何垂直火灾蔓延,内部火灾损害最小。

住户黄伟森先生是 1807 单位的住户,他的妻子于 15 时许首先向他报火警,并听到巨响及烟味。当他们打开起居室的窗户去调查时,他们看到宏盛阁(G 座)上有火焰,宏昌阁(F 座) 上有大量的烟雾。他们都乘电梯下了楼,并在 15:10 左右离开了大楼。他说宏建阁当时没有受到火灾的影响。511 512

366. 其他居民直到大火达到宏建阁时才意识到情况的严重性。

公寓的居民文家春先生作证说,他第一次闻到烟味是在 15 点 05 分到 15 点 10 分之间,之后他听到消防车的警报声,并注意到棚网在他的公寓外面燃烧。当他第一次打开前门时,他没有看到任何烟雾,当他进入楼梯井时,楼梯井仍然没有烟雾。然而,在到达较低楼层时,他发现了缕缕白烟,并看到楼梯窗外有明显的火焰。在下楼的过程中,他每到一层楼都会停下来,提醒其他居民注意火灾。在此期间,公共走廊仍然没有烟雾和火焰。他在 15 点 40 分左右到达了一楼的电梯大厅。513

单位的居民黄成健先生作证说,他在 15 时 14 分左右首先听到巨大的噪音,然后是烟雾。他试图向窗外望去,调查骚乱的起因,但没有看到任何着火的迹象。一两分钟后,他的邻居, 2107 公寓的黄女士(音译)告诉他,她的厨房外有大约 10 厘米宽 10 厘米高的火焰。然后他们试图扑灭火焰,但未能成功操作 FH/HR 系统。他们还用光了地板上的便携式灭火器。

510 [IE2-1/617-619] 511 [IE1/462] 512 [T5/34:19-35:21] 513 [IE1/13.1/142-1-142-3]; [T4/37:9-39:24]

在观察到火焰已经蔓延到邻近的单位后,他决定从楼梯撤离。他大约在 16:10 离开了他的公寓。根据他的证词,当时楼梯井基本上是干净的,但当他离开现场时,他意识到他的面罩被烟灰熏黑了。514 D4. 宏新阁(C 座)内部条件

图 3-37:宏新阁楼梯内部的闭路电视画面(15:22:32) 515

514 [T5/32:11-33:22] 515 [A2/51] 516 [IE2-2/887-889] 517 [IE2-2/900-902]

374. 然而,到 15 点 45 分,多个楼层的公共走廊已经被烟雾笼罩。

根据消防处提供的证据,大约在 15 时 45 分,马文豪、冯家荣及高子俊乘电梯至 10 楼,目的是向邻近大楼(宏建阁(D 座))正面的火场喷水。当电梯门在那一层打开时,他们遇到了严重的情况,烟雾积聚在公共走廊的上半部分。然后他们乘电梯下到 8 楼,但门一打开,烟雾就涌进了电梯。他们大约在 15:50 撤离了大楼。519

宗小柏女士与已故母亲杨云英女士住在 1405 室,她向委员会提交证据解释,她的家人在 14 时 59 分首先得知宏昌阁发生火灾,但直到 15 时 20 分左右,火势才迅速蔓延至宏昌阁(F 座)和宏泰阁(E 座),才意识到情况的严重性。他们试图联系杨女士,但当他们终于在 15:48 找到她时,杨女士告诉他们走廊已经被烟雾笼罩,电梯也无法使用。16 时 27 分,杨女士还能接听钟女士哥哥的视频电话,但那时她已经回到卧室,用湿毛巾封住了门框的缝隙, 因为她的客厅已经被烟雾笼罩。那是钟女士和她的家人最后一次与杨氏夫人通话。520 D5. 宏道阁(B 座)内部条件

宏道阁(B 座)在大约 16:00 之前保持相对无烟状态。闭路电视画面显示,多名居民通过电梯撤离,而走廊仍然畅通。然而,到了 16:09(视频终止前不久,与第一次垂直迅速蔓延到宏道阁的时间相吻合),可以看到居民们捂着脸,这表明烟雾已经开始渗入大楼。

518 [IE2-2/903-904] 519 [C19/2836-2837]; [C20/2855-2861] 520 [IE1/4]

图 3-38:宏道阁电梯内闭路电视静止图像(16:08:46) 521

D6. 宏仁阁(A 座)内部条件

图 3-39:宏仁阁电梯内闭路电视静止图像(18:21:02)523

521 [C20/2863] 522 [IE2-2/846, 849] 523 [C20/2862]

D7. 宏盛阁(G 座)内部条件

  1. 最后,证据表明宏盛阁(G 座)内部的条件一直维持到 16:20 左右。这与 6 号和 7 号公寓之间的入口处在 16 点 22 分左右发生的垂直火灾的照片证据是一致的。524
  2. 来自宏盛阁的闭路电视录像显示,在 16:16 左右,电梯仍然没有烟雾。直到 16 点 20 分左右, 居民才得以从正门撤离。

图 3-40:宏盛阁电梯内和出入口的闭路电视静止图像(16:16:40,16:20:28) 525

524 IC 专家报告图 3-9 [ER3/2171] 525 [C20/2864]

在 16 点 21 分左右离开公寓时,他所在楼层的公共走廊和楼梯上已经冒出了浓浓的白烟。 526

图 3-41:宏盛阁平面 303 外的闭路电视画面(16:21:54)527

E. 事故期间启用消防装置的尝试

(F 座),林先生只好跑到宏仁阁(A 座),并试图启动玻璃破碎报警器,但未能正常工作。然后他去了 FS 泵房,发现主电源开关处于“OFF”位置。将其移至“ON”位置后,宏仁阁的火灾报警声响起。528 385.3. 然后林先生继续到宏道阁(B 座)和宏新阁(C 座),在那里他重复了这个过程。他无法激活宏道阁中的火灾报警器,但成功激活了宏新阁中的火灾报警器。然 526 [T3/32:20-34:21] 527 [IE6/1522] 528 Lam Man Yan WS §§19-20 [WS2/1217]

后他前往宏建阁(D 座),但被警察拦住,警察指示他离开该地区。529 385.4. 经对比林先生的证词与其他证人的证词,以及委员会所取得的同时期证据,证据显示宏仁阁的火警警报器是在约 15 时 20 分至 15 时 27 分首次启动的。530至于宏新阁,火警会在 15:23(曾惠泰女士回到 104 单元的住所收拾行李时)和 15:35(她离开大楼时)之间的某个时间被激活。531 385.5. 与林先生的证词相反,消防处的证据是石艺春警官发现宏仁阁(A 座)号 FS 泵房的主电源开关在 2025 年 11 月 26 日约 16 时处于“OFF”位置。532由于发现 FS 泵房的门未锁,因此不能排除有人进入 FS 泵房并使主电源开关失效的可能性。此外,在现场的 55 名宏仁阁居民提供的证据证实了林先生的证据,他们向警方提交的调查问卷表明,火警警报器确实被激活了。

  1. 至于其他楼宇,证据清楚地表明,FAS 和 FH/HR 系统在火灾当天没有启动。事实上,一些居民试图使用这些消防装置,不幸地推迟了他们的撤离。386.1.ISS 的钟瑞霞女士作证说,她无法启动宏昌阁(F 座)一楼和三楼的火警警报器。我们还观察到一名居民试图激活 15 楼的火灾报警器,但没有成功。 533

图 3-42:14:54:12 从宏昌阁 15 楼 CCTV 录像中截取的静止图像,由 The Collective 534转载

529 Lam Man Yan WS §§21-23 [WS2/1217-1218] 530 [A2/59] 531 [IE2-2/888] 532 姜世明 3rd WS§5.1 [WS4/1801-1802] 533 [T7/32:15-29] 534 [A2/46]系统扑灭他们公寓外的火灾。这一事件被 21 楼的门上摄像机拍了下来。[603]

  1. 2. 谢玉华女士、柯宜蕾女士、陈全先生、乔先生及周志伟先生均作证说,他们在撤离宏昌阁

(F 座)时没有听到火警。535 Lo Hiu Kei Phyllis 女士亦证实,她在最后一次与住在宏昌阁公寓 808 的母亲通电话时,并没有听到火警。536

  1. 3. 罗德培先生于约 14 时 55 分从宏泰阁(E 座)撤离,林仁明女士则于 15 时 12 分从宏泰阁逃离。他们作证说,他们没有听到火警。537
  2. 4. 文家椿先生作证说,当他从宏建阁(D 座)的 30 楼走下楼梯时,他走到每层楼去触发火警。这些尝试每次都不成功。他亦发现 21 楼有两名人士(现知悉为 2108 室的黄成健先生及2107 室的黄女士)企图使用 FH/HR,但未能成功

图 3-43:15 时 24 分左右,宏建阁在 21 楼的闭路电视录像中拍摄的静止图像,由 Tagline HK 538转载

  1. 5. 梁浩显先生作证说,他在从宏盛阁(G 座)撤离的过程中没有听到任何火警。他观察到一对夫妇在 15 点 28 分左右试图使用 FH/HR 系统,但没有成功。539
  2. 事实上,在大约 450 名宏福苑的居民中,他们在火灾现场并完成了警方的调查问卷,没有人听到宏道阁(B 座)、宏建阁(D 座)、宏泰阁(E 座)、宏昌阁(F 座)、宏盛阁(G 座)和宏志阁(H 座)内的火警。只有宏仁阁(A 座)和宏新阁(C 座)的居民听到了火警。这再次证实了 ISS 林文彦先生的证据。

535 [T3/39:20-21, 45:5-6]; [T4/19:12-13]; [T5/28:16-17] 536 [T4/55:27-28] 537 [T5/15:8-9, 18:12-13] 538 [A2/57] 539 [T3/33:11, 20-24]

消防处消防装置监管科于 11 月 26 日及 27 日视察位于宏福苑的 FAS 及 FH/HR 系统

他们观察到所有块(除宏新阁(C 座)外)的主电源开关都处于“OFF”位置,并且所有块(除宏昌阁(F 座)外)的控制保险丝都被熔断。

消防处尝试通过更换保险丝并将开关移动到“ON”位置来重新激活消防装置在宏仁阁(A 座),宏道阁(B 座), 宏新阁(C 座), 宏建阁(D 座), 宏盛阁(G 座)和宏志阁(H 座),但他们只能成功激活宏志阁的火灾报警器。以下是消防处调查结果的汇总表。 540 表 3-1:火灾后消防装置在宏福苑的状态

楼宇 消防泵/中间增压泵 控制熔丝 主电源开关 宏仁阁 更换保险丝后仍不能启动 烧断 关闭 宏道阁 不能启动 烧断 关闭 宏新阁 不能启动 烧断 开启 宏建阁 不能启动 烧断 关闭 宏泰阁 由于泵房积水,未进行测试 烧断 关闭 宏昌阁 由于泵房积水,未进行测试 正常 关闭 宏盛阁 不能启动 烧断并发霉 关闭 宏志阁 着火时不能启动,在调查时更换保险丝能够启动 烧断 关闭

F. 死亡及伤亡情况

540 [B11/5643] 541 [B13/5721-5733]

人、1 名访客及 1 名消防员,即消防员何伟浩(Fn Ho)。37 个家庭失去了 2 个或更多的成员。 390.3.大部分死亡集中在宏昌阁(F 座)(81 人死亡)和宏泰阁(E 座)(82 人死亡)。宏建 阁(D 座)无死亡病例,而宏道阁(B 座)和宏新阁(C 座)各有 2 例死亡病例,宏盛阁 (G 座)有 1 例死亡病例。390.4.伤者 45 男 34 女,年龄从 3 个月到 87 岁不等。他们包括56 名居民、13 名消防处人员、1 名新闻记者、3 名访客、3 名建筑及装修工人,以及 3 名邻近广福村的居民。损伤同样集中在宏昌阁(F 座)(33 例)和宏泰阁(E 座)(14 例)。宏盛阁(G 座)有 2 例损伤,宏道阁(B 座)有 9 例损伤,宏仁阁(A 座)有 1 例损伤,宏新阁 (C 座)和宏建阁(D 座)均无损伤。

391. 消防处拟备的伤亡地点图示如下:

图 3-44:伤亡位置示意图542

值得注意的是,对于宏昌阁(F 座), 81 例死亡中有 57 例(70%)是在公寓内发现的,其余 24 例是在楼梯和走廊中发现的。

对于宏泰阁(E 座), 82 例死亡中有 41 例(50%)发生在公寓内,而其余 41 例发生在公共空间。

这说明,对于宏昌阁(F 座),火灾发生得如此之快,以至于居住者在被烟雾淹没之前没有机会逃离。相比之下,宏泰阁(E 座)的大部分住户发现了火灾,并开始从他们的公寓撤离, 但随后被楼梯上的烟雾淹没。543

根据验尸报告和公共停尸房进行的尸检,544 91 人的死亡是由于吸入火气造成的。他们血液中的碳氧血红蛋白水平升高,从 15%到 80%的饱和度(50%的饱和度通常被认为是危及生命的, 并与深度昏迷、痉挛、心血管衰竭和心脏骤停有关)。

Usmani 教授和 Jiang 教授分析了宏昌阁(F 座)中五个人是如何在完全完好无损的情况下死亡的,即宏昌阁的 1202 单元中的四个人和同一楼宇的 2602 单元中的一个人。这些死亡人数

542 [B13/5728-5733] 543 [ER5/2648] 544 共进行了 25 宗尸体解剖,批出 143 宗豁免书:见[C14/2804]

是由两种不同的烟雾传播方式造成的:宏昌阁户型 1202,烟雾从门缝渗入机组,机组入口门厅吊顶有较重的烟尘沉积。烟雾很可能来自 1201 单元,该单元遭受了严重的火灾破坏, 并且该单元的前门完全被烧毁。545 396.2. 而对于宏昌阁的 2602 单元,正门面向走廊区域的积灰较少。由于窗户被发现是开着的,人们认为烟雾是从外面通过开着的窗户进入房间的。546

  1. 这些例子证明了未被火灾损坏的单位的烟雾的致命影响。还有许多其他未受火灾损害的单位或公共区域死亡的例子。说明烟雾在楼宇内蔓延的程度:397.1. 宏道阁(B 座)公寓 2206 和 2207 有 2 人死亡,完全没有受到火灾的破坏。这些住户的死亡原因是吸入了火灾烟雾。547 397.2. 宏泰阁(E 座)毒株 306、2107 和宏盛阁(G 座)毒株 2802 各有 1 例死亡。他们的死因同样是吸入了烟雾。397.3.Usmani 和 Jiang 教授还观察到,很大一部分死亡发生在楼梯和公共走廊,这些地方没有任何可燃燃料来产生火焰或热量。这意味着吸入烟雾可能是这些地点的死亡原因。548 549
  2. 另有 12 人的死亡被确定是由于吸入烟雾和烧伤和/或多种医疗原因(如心脏病)共同造成的。

550

至于在火灾中受伤的人士,79 名伤者中有 50 人(63%)因吸入伤、呼吸短促、体温过低或换气过度而入院,3 人因烧伤入院,26 人因各种情况入院,包括中暑、身体受伤或轻微情况。 551

最后,我们必须赞扬消防处和警方的灾难受害者鉴定组在火灾现场找到和找回死者遗体的工作。消防处人员在二零一五年十一月二十九日至十二月九日的搜救行动中,在现场捡获 106

545 IC 专家报告§§4.3.12-4.3.13 [ER3/2227-2229] 398。另有 65 人死于“火灾的不利影响”,即遗体被严重烧伤,严重烧焦或腐烂,无法确定具体死因。然而,鉴于火灾的间接证据,他们的死亡很可能是由一种或多种典型死亡原因造成的,即烧伤、高温、吸入一氧化碳或其他有毒物质、创伤和/或先前存在的疾病,如自然疾病或其他伤害。[616] 546 IC 专家报告§§4.3.14-4.3.16 [ER3/2230] 547 [B13/5721-5722] 548 IC 专家报告§4.2.4 [ER3/2217-2218] 549 [ER2-1/626] 550 IFITF 最终报告§9.3.1.3 [ER1/195] 551 IFITF 最终报告§9.4.2 [ER1/201]

具尸体,而调查小组则在现场捡获经确认属于 61 名死者的尸体部分。法医病理学家于 2025 年 12 月 19 日确定了最后的死亡病例。对于那些参与演习的人来说,这是一项痛苦而吃力 不讨好的任务。 552

G. 财产损失

图 3-45:宏昌阁 556公寓和公共空间损坏示意图

  1. 3. 宏泰阁(E 座)遭受了类似的损失。145 个单位(58%),29 层的公共走廊(94%)和 34 层
  1. 4. 与宏昌阁一样,值得注意的是,宏泰阁朝北的 6 号和 7 号公寓基本上没有损坏。

552 郑家纯 2nd WS [WS10/1951-1953] 553 (er2 - 1/606 - 638) 554 表示完全燃尽状态,所有可燃物全部消耗或转化为灰,具有广泛的炭化和变形[ER2-1/619]。楼梯段(55%)被评估为极度严重损坏或严重损坏。 555 表示严重的燃尽,大部分可燃材料被破坏,广泛的炭化和变形[ER2-1/619]。 556 [ER2-1/621]

图 3-46:宏泰阁 557公寓和公共空间损坏示意图

  1. 5. 宏建阁(D 座)基本上没有损坏。只有 16 楼的一个单位受损严重,其他 7 个单位(2.8%) 受损轻微,其中 4 个在同一层。只有 16 楼的公共走廊发生火灾,其他走廊及楼梯均未受影响。

图 3-47:宏建阁 558公寓和公共空间损坏示意图

  1. 6. 相比之下,宏新阁(C 座)受到了严重的破坏,每个公寓都受到了一定程度的破坏。总共有146 个单位(58%)、31 层楼的公共走廊(100%)和 50 段楼梯(81%)被评估为严重受损或严重受损。

557 [ER2-1/622] 558 [ER2-1/623]

图 3-48:宏新阁 559公寓和公共空间损坏示意图

  1. 7. 在宏道阁(B 座)中,只有 40 个单位(16%)、14 层的公共走廊(45%)和 1 段楼梯(1.6%)被评估为极严重或严重损坏。受损集中在朝南的 2 号和 3 号公寓,这是靠近重新进入的公寓,在 16:11 左右经历了快速的垂直蔓延。

图 3-49:宏道阁 560公寓和公共空间损坏示意图

  1. 8. 宏仁阁(A 座)中的位置也是类似的。52 个单位(21%)、21 层的公共走廊(68%)及 2 段楼梯(3.2%)被评估为损毁极为严重或严重。大部分受损的单位是 2 号和 3 号单位,即靠近重返入口的朝南单位,垂直方向迅速蔓延。

559 [ER2-1/624] 560 [ER2-1/626]

图 3-50:宏仁阁 561公寓和公共空间损坏示意图

  1. 9. 最后,宏盛阁(G 座)相对不受影响。21 个单位(8.5%)、10 层楼的公用走廊(32%)及 2段楼梯(3.2%)受损极为严重或严重。破坏主要集中在南向的 6 号和 7 号公寓,这些公寓与重新进入的公寓相邻,经历了快速的垂直蔓延。

图 3-51:宏盛阁 562公寓和公共空间损坏示意图

561 [ER2-1/627] 562 [ER2-1/625]

第 4 章火灾、火势蔓延及重大伤亡的成因

A. 概述

国际乒联和委员会专家提供的证据对火灾的起因、迅速蔓延和重大伤亡提供了清晰的科学描述。他们的意见为委员会提供了科学依据,以便评估各方的责任,并就今后如何防止这种悲剧提出建议。

正如委员会从取证听证会中看到的那样,专家报告中的结论是详细审查火灾及其后果的摄影和录像证据、全面火灾试验和燃烧试验的实验数据以及计算流体动力学模拟的结果。国际乒联和委员会的专家各自独立工作,但得出了大致相似的结论。这给他们的结论增加了很大的分量。 563

本章旨在总结专家证据的主要方面。请委员会审议全面的专家报告。专家的意见、假设和方法在口头证据中没有受到实质性的挑战。

为方便委员会参考,关键字专家报告如下:406.1. IFITF 最终报告[ER1/1-239],包括附录:(a) 工程师袁国杰教授最终专家报告[ER2-2/1174-1502]。(b)政府化验所法证科学部药物、毒理学及文件组总化验师李永文博士的声明[ER2-1/460-549]。564 406.2. Asif Sohail Usmani 和蒋立明教授的 IC 专家报告[ER3/2154-2282]。

第二章规定,这八个楼宇被可燃材料包围了一年多。易燃垃圾和碎片堆积在棚架平台和采光井内。要求为阻燃的材料-主要是棚网和塑料布 -基本上没有。这一结论是根据承建商自己的

563 [T27/84:3-9] 564 李永文博士已在[C14/2801-2802]提交补充声明;[C16/2812-2814],以及关于塑料布 [C19/2826-2835]测试方法的声明。分钟。实验证明,警方从宏志阁(H 座)缴获的非阻燃网,即使在火源被扑灭后,仍能产生滴落火焰,并迅速传播点火。当被一个小的局部火源(0.09 MW)燃烧时,非阻燃网滴下火焰并将火焰分布到纸板和木板上,使火焰变得足够大,点燃竹棒。相比之下,阻燃网没有表现出这些特征。[634]

承认、购买记录和其他书面和间接证据得出的。第二章分析了从现场查获的材料的阻燃性的专家证据,与这一结论相一致。565

  1. 专家们对可燃材料和非阻燃材料对火灾迅速蔓延所起作用的分析,对于委员会审查 BMR 工程的标准和监督是否适当以及测试和核查系统是否有效的任务特别重要。Usmani 和 Jiang 教授论证了:408.1. 返回站内的快速垂直火灾主要是由于返回站内存在连续可燃材料,包括大量的竹子、不耐火网、帆布、踢脚板和发泡胶板。566 408.2. 非阻燃棚网作为连续的垂直灯芯, 使火焰能够在 31 层楼内传播
  2. 3. 发泡胶板在受到强烈加热时迅速熔化并从玻璃板上脱落。一旦脱落,发泡胶板将持续火焰传播到其他可燃物上。567
  3. 4. 对于竹子,试验表明,它不能被少量的热量点燃,但在高加热条件下,可以发生快速热解和燃烧。568
  4. 专家们关于起火位置和重大伤亡的证据同样突出了逃避监管审查的松散建筑做法的危险,包括工人在现场吸烟、未经授权拆除受保护楼梯的窗户和使火警警报系统失去功能。再加上上文所述的可燃外壳,这些将一场小规模的局部火灾变成了一场前所未有的悲剧。

B. 起火位置

证据表明,火灾很可能是由一个发光源引起的,很可能是香烟,点燃了平屋顶上的纸材料

李永文博士解释说,第 104 和 105 号单位之间的光井所受的损害,比该区其他光井所受的损害严重得多。由于火灾损害的严重程度反映了该地区受火灾影响的时间长度,569这表明 104 和 105 号公寓之间的光井比其他光井燃烧的时间更长,更强烈。

565 袁教授、Usmani 教授及蒋教授所作的实验证实了上述结论,而李永文博士对棚网的实验则因样本限制而未有定论。 566 IC 专家报告§§3.7.16,6.3.1 [ER3/2191, 2245] 567 IC 专家报告§§3.6.2-3.6.3 [ER3/2179-2180] 568 IC 专家报告§3.6.12 [ER3/2183] 569 [T25/40:13-26]

图 4-1:宏昌阁 105 号平面的照片,转载自李永文博士于 2026 年 6 月 22 日570的演讲

图 4-2:宏昌阁一楼走廊照片,转载自李永文博士于 2026 年 6 月 22 日的演讲571

570 [ER4/2455] 571 [ER4/2458]

图 4-3:从宏建阁外 15:15 左右572拍摄的视频片段拍摄的静态图像

  1. 2. 宏建阁外部的火灾相对较小,仅限于前部。上图中火焰附近的公寓都没有受到任何内部火灾的损害。这支持了这个结论,即这是外部火灾蔓延的产物,而不是单独的火源。

572 [IE6/1523]

  1. 3. 根据 IFITF 进行的计算流体动力学模拟,根据当时的风力条件,宏昌阁的再入火的飞行余烬可能已经到达宏建阁的西表面。

图 4-4 2025 年 11 月 26 日573风况计算流体力学模拟

C. 起火原因

C1. 可能的原因是现场吸烟

418. 有几类证据表明点燃的香烟是引起火灾的原因。

573 袁教授最后专家报告附录 D [ER2-2/1492]图 8 574 [T25/41:20-24]

进他们公寓的香烟烟雾。575 419.2. 管理处保存的投诉日志记录了对工人在棚架上吸烟的持续 投诉。例如,参见以下投诉:2024 年 7 月 29 日(在搭建棚架576期间吸烟)、2024 年 10 月 9 日(工人在棚架577上丢弃点燃的烟头)、2024 年 12 月 24 日(工人经常在走廊和道路上吸烟) 578 579

  1. 3. 政府部门收到了十多起有关工人吸烟的投诉。事实上,就在火灾发生前两星期,劳工处及消防处接获投诉,指有工人在棚架上吸烟,引起人们对发生棚架火灾的担忧。580
  2. 4. 徐文辉先生(新管理委员会的主席)作证说,尽管管理委员会多次向 PC&E 提出有关现场吸烟的问题,但问题并没有得到圆满解决,投诉一直持续。581
  3. 这种情况一直持续到火灾那天:420.1. 起火点上方的闭路电视录像的音频记录显示,当火灾开始时,棚架上的工人认为烟雾是由工人不正确地处理香烟引起的:见第三章 a 节。582 420.2. 2025 年 11 月 26 日 14:45,在 PC&E 和宏盛阁(G 座)之间的 WhatsApp 群中发送了一段视频,视频显示宏盛阁(G 座)的楼梯上有许多香烟。

575 [T3/45:31-46:5]; [T4/6:15-18] 576 [C1-1/749] 577 [C1-1/749] 578 [T3/37:19-22]棚架[648]), 2025 年 2 月 24 日(工人在棚架[649]吸烟)。 579 [T4/27:11-23] 580 [D1/1411]; [B6/4512-4513] 581 [T14/48:33-51:4] 582 [A2/7]

图 4-5:583于 2025 年 11 月 26 日 14:45 在 PC&E 和之间的 WhatsApp 群中流传的宏盛阁 11-12/F 的视频片段的静止图像

  1. 3. 在口头开幕词期间,委员会还看到了闭路电视录像,显示一名穿着 PC&E 制服的工人在宏昌阁(F 座)的屋顶上吸烟。这段视频是在发现火灾前不久拍摄的。

图 4-6:14:44(参考时间 14:45 左右)从宏昌阁屋顶拍摄的闭路电视静止图像 584

(ii)一个烟头烧焦的残余物,以及(iii)大量部分燃烧的材料(包括纸箱和马赛克瓷砖的 583 [A2/73] 584 [A2/30];IFITF 最后报告 f66 [ER1/78]

底纸,以及踢脚板的碎片和塑料布)。如果纸板接触到没有熄灭的烟头,它会闷烧(即燃烧时不被注意,没有任何火焰)一段时间,然后点燃并变成火焰燃烧。585

  1. 李永文博士解释说,这些可燃物很可能离最初的火源很近,当其他可燃物从高处坠落时,这些可燃物被保存在部分燃烧的状态,在最初点燃的地方窒息了火。586
  2. 如第 2 章第 D6 节所述,在棚架平台和平台上乱扔可燃碎片和材料的情况普遍存在。火灾后对棚架和宏志阁(H 座)的检查还发现,工作平台上到处都是烟头。587
  3. 火灾时的低湿度水平(在 40%到 50%之间)降低了材料中的水分含量,使它们更容易燃烧,并促进了闷烧火灾的发展。588

C2. 消除其他潜在原因的原因

  1. 第三,在宏福苑的情况下,IFITF: 425.1 已经排除了其他几个典型的火灾原因。高温工作产生的火花:不太可能是由焊接等高温工作产生的火花引起的。唯一在起火点附近进行的工作是外墙马赛克瓷砖的重新铺贴,没有涉及任何焊接。这与第 2 章 D3 节中检查的工程进度一致, 其中得出的结论是,所有区块的切割工作已经完成,并且大多数区块正在进行批荡和铺砖过程。425.2.自燃:在宏福苑的情况下,由于没有证据表明这些材料存在于平屋顶区域,因此在室温下暴露在空气中可能燃烧的材料(如锂电池,堆肥或干草)已被排除。589 425.3. 电气故障:机电工程署电力法例科检查了怀疑为起火点的光井平台,并没有发现任何电气装置或产品。在离怀疑火源最近的地方,包括自行车棚和 104 及 105 号公寓,并没有发现电力装置有故障的迹象。这样,就排除了由电气故障引起火灾的可能性。590 591 592 593

585 [ER4/2465-2467]; [T25/34:17-35:36] 586 [T25/41:3-13] 587 [ER2-1/608] 588 IFITF 最终报告§6.1.9 [ER1/74] 589 [T26/35:16-20] 590 [ER2-1/656] 591 IFITF 最终报告§6.1.3 [ER1/73] 425.4 气体泄漏:液化石油气是通过位于宏昌阁(F 座)的 104 号和 105 号 Flats 之间的回口右侧的重型钢管供应的。在火警发生后,机电工程署气体标准处进行的检查并没有发现管道破裂的情况。在火灾发生前的三个月内,并没有接获怀疑石油气泄漏的报告。火灾当天也没有任何异常的燃气消耗。此外,火灾

图 4-7:IFITF 最终报告594中重新进入的 LPG 立管示意图

  1. 5. 使用助燃剂纵火:李永文博士测试在宏昌阁 104 及 105 号单位外平屋顶发现的碎片是否有可燃液体残留物,但没有发现。李博士还检查了平屋顶的混凝土表面,并注意到它没有受到火灾的影响,没有混凝土剥落,而这通常是由助燃剂引起的。因此,得出的结论是,火灾不太可能是由使用助燃剂引起的。 595

D. 火势蔓延分析

的视频片段没有显示任何与液化石油气泄漏引起的火焰有关的特征。因此,机电工程署排除煤气泄漏是起火的原因。 [664] 592 [ER2-1/655] 593 [ER2-1/645-654] 594 图一,机电工程署调查报告[ER2-1/662] 595 [T25/41:36-42:7]

两组专家一致认为,火灾的发展涉及三种主要模式,即(i)火焰迅速垂直蔓延到再入层,(ii)火焰从再入层蔓延到个别公寓,以及(iii)由表面可燃材料引起的二次点火。596 D1. 垂直火势蔓延

第三章描述了宏昌阁返回舱的局部火灾是如何在几分钟内发展成一个高耸的火柱的。迅速的垂直火灾随后吞没了另外 11 个凹入位。

此外,第 3 章分析的证据表明,快速重新进入火灾与内部破坏程度之间存在显著相关性,以及重新进入火灾附近楼梯和走廊的可持续性受到损害。

430. 专家们分析了导致火焰沿着再入轨道快速上升的关键因素。

正如乌斯马尼和姜教授所解释的那样,重返大气层的几何形状强烈影响了火焰的高度和速度。在烟囱效应(或烟囱效应)下,热燃烧气体在竖井或半封闭空间内上升,在底部产生负压, 增加空气流入以增强氧气供应,从而加速燃烧。重新进入的几何形状导致它们充当部分烟囱, 允许火焰和烟雾快速垂直传播。597

模拟表明,如果火灾发生在一个平坦的墙壁上,甚至是一个角落,火焰就不会达到宏昌阁的全部高度,蔓延的速度也会慢得多。598

同样,IFITF 发现,重新进入的竖井,就像电梯竖井等其他结构竖井一样,“自然地引导上升的烟雾和热气”,使火灾在短时间内迅速吞没多个楼层。599

然而,仅仅是重返大气层的几何形状不可能导致火势迅速蔓延。专家们一致认为,再入物内部大量可燃物的积累是导致局部火灾迅速发展为垂直火灾的关键因素。600 434.1. 可燃材料提供了丰富的燃料负荷,以维持和加剧火灾。601

596 IFITF 最终报告,第 8 章[ER1/127-174];集成电路专家报告,第三章[ER3/2166-2208] 597 IC 专家报告,附录 A§1.2 [ER3/2267-2268] 598 IC 专家报告,附录 A§§1.3-1.4 [ER3/2269-2271] 434.2. 此外,当大量可燃材料存在于一个凹入位时,烟囱效应将推动火焰向上,点燃更多的可燃沿着凹入位。这个过程产生了一个反馈循环,以指数速度加速了垂直火势的蔓延和热气的向上流动。[673] 599 IFITF 最终报告§§6.2.1.6,10.2.3 [er1 / 80,203]

435. 最后一个关键因素是非阻燃棚网和画布的存在。

正如第二章所述,袁教授的意见是,如果宏福苑的棚网和帆布具有阻燃性,那么最初的火灾 “应该会自行熄灭”,而不会导致重返舱内的可燃材料着火。因此,他同意委员会律师的意见, 即在现场所有其他条件保持不变的情况下,如果现场使用的棚网和画布具有阻燃属性,则沿 着宏昌阁凹入位的快速垂直射击就不会发展。602 603

乌斯马尼教授和蒋教授对袁教授的分析大致同意。然而,Usmani 教授表达了他的观点更加谨慎,如果棚网是阻燃,最初的火“可能”已经自行熄灭。604

乌斯马尼教授采取谨慎态度是合理的。由四川科技与工程大学的 IFITF 进行的全尺寸火灾试验表明,如果火灾规模足够大,无论是否为阻燃,再入层内的所有可燃材料都可能被消耗。605 袁教授在证据中澄清,这些大火的规模很大

2. 兆瓦。606

因此,袁教授的结论取决于宏昌阁点火源的大小。在这方面,袁教授同意火灾很可能是从一个小点火源开始的。他认为,视频显示,大火在开始时基本上没有被注意到,这强烈表明这是一场小规模的火灾。这与我们在上面C 节的结论是一致的。 607

在小型点火源的情况下,非阻燃棚网可能在火灾的发展中发挥了关键作用:440.1. IFITF 和委员会专家进行的实验都表明,当接触到一个小点火源608时(i) 阻燃棚网会自动熄灭;而(ii) 非阻燃棚网继续蔓延火焰并产生燃烧的液滴。609 440.2. 在四川的火灾试验中,当非阻燃棚网和

600 IFITF 最终报告§8.2.7.1 [ER1/132];IC 专家报告§§3.10.3-3.10.7 也 6.3.1 [ER3/2205-2207, 2245] 601 IFITF 最终报告§8.4.6.4 [ER1/164] 602 [T26/19:18-24] 603 袁教授最后专家报告§2.13.3 [ER2-2/1250] 604 [T27/62:6-63:9, 86:5-10] 605 袁教授最后专家报告§2.10.7 [ER2-2/1216] 606 袁教授最终专家报告§2.7.2 [ER2-2/1197];袁教授澄清说,2.5 兆瓦的热量释放率是在重返大气层中测量的[t26 /16:15- 24,19:8 -12]。 607 [T26/18:17-25] 367.65 MJ,其中阻燃棚网和画布使用-代表 27 倍的增长。[683] 608 袁教授最后专家报告§2.7.2 (1.5 MW) [ER2-2/1197];IC 专家报告§3.6.8 (90 kW 或 0.09 MW) [ER3/2181-2182] 609 袁教授最后专家报告§2.13.3 [ER2-2/1250];IC 专家报告§3.6.8 [ER3/2181-2182]

画布接触到一个小火源时,它们导致火灾蔓延到可燃物,导致竹材着火。该测试(测试 13) 产生的总能量释放为 10,155.92 兆焦耳,而总能量释放为 440.3. 四川的试验说明了非阻燃材料在释放竹子所含能量方面的作用,竹子不容易点燃,但如果暴露在高温下就会点燃。610 440.4. 委员会的专家还进行了实验,结果表明,警方从宏志阁(H 座)缴获的非阻燃网滴下火焰, 并将火焰分散到可燃材料上,使火焰变得足够大,足以点燃竹子。611 440.5. 袁教授的计算流体力学模拟亦比较了在 700 千瓦小型点火源下的阻燃网与非阻燃网。当使用阻燃网时,模拟显示,在重新进入时,火灾没有快速蔓延,峰值为 35 MW,这表明阻燃网抑制了早期的火灾增长。相比之下,当使用非阻燃网和宏志阁网时,发生了大的再入火灾, 峰值超过 700 MW。612

  1. 最终,Usmani 教授和 Jiang 教授同意袁教授的结论,即棚网和帆布缺乏阻燃质量是导致火势迅速蔓延的重要原因。613

D2. 大火蔓延至公寓

442. 专家们还讨论了火灾从 farade 向个别公寓的横向蔓延问题。

610 [T27/61:2-6] 611 [T27/60:4-21];IC 专家报告§3.6.21 [ER3/2186] 612 袁教授最后专家报告,附录 D§4.2 [ER2-2/1497-1499] 613 [T27/62:6-63:9, 86:5-10] 614 IFITF 最终报告§8.3.4.5 [ER1/137] 615 IFITF 最终报告§8.3.2.1 [ER1/136];袁教授最后专家报告§2.6.15 [ER2-2/1195]

部没有严重受损的单位,例如宏仁阁(A 座)的 Flat 2004。火势很可能从其他单元通过破坏入口门向内部蔓延。616 617

  1. 委员会的专家还详细分析了外部火灾是如何通过靠近凹入位的起居室窗户渗透到内部单元的, 这些窗户被迅速的垂直火灾吞没。
  2. 证据表明,重新进入的快速火灾的热量足以打破紧挨着重新进入的起居室的窗户。值得注意的是,公寓 5 从 8 楼到 31 楼的所有客厅窗户
  3. 起居室大窗户的朝向和内部损伤程度之间也有明显的相关性。例如,宏昌阁公寓 5 的客厅窗户紧挨着凹入位。这些单元遭受的破坏比 4 号单元严重得多,4 号单元与再出入口的距离相等,但在再出入口附近只有小的浴室窗户。618

图 4-8:重入式配置示意图,摘自 IC 专家 2026 年 6 月 25 日619的演示

616 IFITF 最终报告§8.3.6 [ER1/148-157] 617 的宏昌阁(F 座)和宏道阁(B 座)的 8/F 至 31/F 的 Flat 2 的 IFITF Final Report§8.3.2.1 [ER1/136]在火灾中被破坏。[692] 618 [ER6/2695, 2698] 619 [ER6/2693]

但厨房窗户附近的区域通常不会有可燃物。另一个可能的原因是,宏福苑的厨房门是按照 1976 年《火灾时提供逃生途径的操作规范》和《盟军要求》建造的 30 分钟防火门。620 621

如上所述,IFITF 还观察到,与凹入位相邻的公寓所遭受的破坏不对称,这“可能是由于客厅的窗户开口较大,而该空间内的火灾负荷较高”。IFITF 指出,这种不对称似乎与厨房无关。622

一旦火势从内部蔓延到室内,就可能通过前门蔓延到邻近的单元。如上所述,IFITF 引用了火灾蔓延到宏仁阁(A 座)的 Flat 2004 的例子。江教授提到大火从宏昌阁(F 座)的 2704 单元前门向 2703 单元内部蔓延,623注意到 2703 单元没有暴露在重新进入的火灾中。624 625

另一种火势蔓延的方式是“蛙跳”。当内部火灾进入轰燃时,它们可能会冲破一扇窗户,导致火焰跳出窗户,粘在墙上并打破上面房间的窗户。视频画面显示,从房间喷出的火焰通过这个装置将火焰蔓延到上面的公寓。626 627

公寓内的燃油负荷继续助长了火势的横向和纵向蔓延,延长了火势。正如江教授所描述的,

这些多点的房间火灾很难控制。这也许可以解释,尽管最后一次快速重返火灾发生在 2025 年11 月 26 日 18 时 32 分,但628消防行动一直持续到 2025 年 11 月 28 日 10 时 18 分,近 40 小时后。

620 IC 专家报告§3.9.3 [ER3/2204] 621 [t27 /17:9- 17,19:12 -20:16] 622 IFITF 最终报告§8.3.4.5 [ER1/137] 623 [T27/23:1-9] 624 [ER6/2700] 625 IFITF 最终报告§8.3.6 [ER1/148-157]在重新进入的垂直火灾发展为房间火灾后,上述各种火灾蔓延方式导致火灾发展为多点单元火灾。[703] 626 [ER6/2699] 627 [T27/9:10-20];IC 专家报告§2.3.1(b) [ER3/2165] 628 IC 专家报告图 3-3 [ER3/2168]

D3. 二级发动机

  1. 二次点火问题很重要。如上所述,它解释了一场小的局部火灾是如何发展成一场足够大的火 灾,从而引发一场快速的再入火灾。二次点火也解释了火灾如何沿着棚网蔓延到不同的位置, 并最终跨越多个建筑物。
  2. 快速重返大气层的火焰只持续了几分钟就进入了衰变阶段。然而,材料的二次点火使衰减的火焰蔓延到新的区域,点燃可燃物,并可能引发下一次重新进入的火灾。 629
  3. IFITF 在四川的实验表明,即使在再入大气层的火焰开始衰减时,在使用缺乏阻燃性能的棚网进行测试时,也会发生二次点火。据观察,火灾沿着非阻燃棚网传播,在重新进入的火灾进入衰减阶段后的 50 至 120 分钟内,在棚架上的各个位置导致二次点火。火会的 630
  4. 发泡胶板也在火势蔓延中发挥了作用。Usmani 教授和 Jiang 教授进行的实验表明,窗户上的发泡胶板在加热时会熔化并脱落。发泡胶板产生的燃烧液滴有助于二次点火,以及有毒烟雾。袁教授亦观察到,从窗户脱落的发泡胶板,会成为新的火源。631 632
  5. 乌斯马尼教授和姜教授还观察到,火灾从第一个重新进入的人蔓延到同一建筑物内的其他建筑物,随后蔓延到邻近的建筑物,因为空中的余烬高速喷涌,足够轻,可以被大风吹到很远的地方而不会熄灭。他们认为,所有可燃物(包括非阻燃网)都可能是造成这些可燃物的原因。633

629 IC 专家报告§3.3.3 [ER3/2169] 630 袁教授最后专家报告§§2.3.4-2.3.5 [ER2-2/1180-1181] 631 袁教授的最终专家报告§2.11.5 [ER2-2/1220]于 2025 年 11 月 26 日 15 时在大埔滘录得的速度约为每小时 14 公里。风为火焰提供了额外的氧气,增加了火焰的热量,从而加剧了火势的发展,并进一步将燃烧的建筑材料碎片带到了 相当远的地方。[715] [714] 632 IC 专家报告§§3.6.1-3.6.5,3.9.4 [ER3/2179-2180, 2204]。 633 IC 专家报告§7.2.8 [ER3/2251]

同样,IFITF 也认为,重返大气层的火焰将余烬提升到很高的高度,使它们能够随风移动相当长的距离,然后坠落。如果再入大气层的火焰将余烬和燃烧的碎片推到其他再入大气层的物体上,这可能会在这些再入大气层的物体中引发另一次快速的火灾蔓延。634 635

459. 最后,当天的低湿度和大风等外部因素进一步加剧了事件链。636平均风速

E. 重大伤亡成因

E1. 导致重大伤亡的因素

(F 座)和宏泰阁(E 座): 460.1 中。火势垂直蔓延的极端速度增加了被困的风险,因为浓烟阻碍了疏散工作。637 460.2. 燃烧的竹子和其他碎片堆积在地面上,挡住了建筑物的入口。 638 460.3. 逃生途径也受到了损害,因为可打开的电梯大厅窗户和楼梯上的工人通道口允许烟雾在早期阶段渗透到受保护的逃生途径。639

  1. 2. 居民的证据显示,大约 14:58,楼梯完全充满了浓烟,切断了他们的主要逃生途径。到那时, 宏昌阁中乘员的可用安全出口时间已经有效地减少到零。640
  2. 3. 火灾后对防火楼梯门附近的火焰和烟灰沉积模式的检查显示,这些门是关闭的,并经受住了公共走廊的火焰。因此,楼梯里的烟雾是通道开口直接造成的。 641

634 IFITF 最终报告§8.4.5.2 [ER1/161] 635 IFITF 最终报告§8.4.4.1 [ER1/158] 636 IC 专家报告§7.2.9 [ER3/2251] 637 IFITF 最终报告§10.2 [ER1/203-207] 638 IFITF 最终报告§10.3 [ER1/208-214] 639 IFITF 最终报告§10.6 [ER1/225-235] 640 IC 专家报告§4.4.15 [ER3/2235] 461.5. 委员会专家提供的证据效果很好。他们的计算流体动力学模拟模拟了带有通道开口的楼梯,结果表明,烟雾“在火灾发生的几分钟内”进入了楼梯,并在一分钟后超过了可持续性限制。烟雾可以通过工人通道口活动板的缝隙和孔洞渗透到楼梯中,甚至在它们完全烧毁之前。他们的结论是“木板和铝板都不适合保护楼梯开口”。[725]

  1. 4. 来自 IFITF 的证据是,作为 BMR 工程一部分安装的宏昌阁楼梯中的防火窗能够承受凹入位的快速垂直射击。642防火窗户将楼梯内部温度保持在 56°C,尽管重新进入的火灾温度达到1061°C。相比之下,用铝复合面板取代的窗户,内部温度达到 605°C。643

图 4-9 烟雾渗透的计算流体力学模拟

!

楼梯644

  1. 其他影响居民对火灾意识的关键因素包括覆盖窗户的不透明的发泡胶板, 645和火警警报系统的关闭。这些因素延迟了居民的反应和疏散。 646

E2. 预计逃生时间

  1. IFITF 确定的导致重大伤亡的因素可以参照可用安全撤离时间(ASET)和所需安全撤离时间

(RSET)的概念进行分析。消防处助理处长杨耀文解释,ASET / RSET 计算只适用于采用性

641 [T26/47:21-29] 642 唯一损坏的防火窗是消防员在后来的消防行动中采取措施从楼梯排烟的结果[T26/41:6-15]。 643 IFITF 最终报告§10.6.2.3 [ER1/230] 644 [ER6/2727] 645 IFITF 最终报告§10.5 [ER1/217-224] 646 IFITF 最终报告§10.4 [ER1/215-217]

能设计的楼宇,以证明住户在发生火警时可以安全逃生。然而,IFITF 和委员会的专家都提到了这个概念,它有助于说明在火灾期间居民疏散的可用时间。 647

  1. 对于任何给定的火灾,只有当疏散所需的总时间——探测火灾、决策和身体移动——小于可用的安全出口时间——即疏散通道变得无法维持或无法通行之前的时间,才能实现成功的疏散。

648

图 4-10:说明 ASET/RSET 概念的时间轴分析,摘自 IC 专家在 2026 年 6 月 27 日649的演讲

(F 座):大约 14:58,当第一次重新进入火灾完全发展时,楼梯和走廊已经成为烟雾,650,最迟在 15:05 左右,两条地面逃生途径被燃烧的碎片阻塞。651 466.2. 652:大约 15 点 17 分, 楼梯和走廊都被浓烟笼罩,最迟在 15 点 30 分左右,两条地面逃生途径都被燃烧的碎片堵 塞。653 466.3. 654:在 15:22 之后的某个时候,当闭路电视视频输入终止时,可能直到大约 647 [T26/41:33-36] 648 IC 专家报告§4.4 [ER3/2232-2235] 649 [ER6/2681] 650 IC 专家报告图 3-4 [ER3/2169] 651 当居民被困在他们的公寓时,他们的脸和周围。[740] 652 b 张 Chi Lim George 先生的证据[04:23:6 -34] 653 IFITF 最终报告§10.3.3 [ER1/208] 654 宏新阁的楼梯监控录像[A2/51]

15:45,当消防员报告走廊被烟雾记录时。655 466.4. 宏道阁(B 座):大约 16:09 时,闭路电 视视频停止播放,看到居民们在掩护 656

466.5. 宏盛阁(G 座):大约 16:21,走廊和楼梯开始冒烟。657

  1. 6. 宏仁阁(A 座):大约 18:32,当最后一次快速再入火灾发生时。658
  1. 7. 宏建阁(D 座):该楼宇没有经历快速的火势蔓延,疏散可能会持续更长的时间,如果不是在整个消防过程中。与火灾初期闭路电视画面被切断的其他楼宇不同,警方能够从宏建阁上的一些摄像头中恢复连续的闭路电视画面,直到第二天,可以看到消防员自由进出。659

466.8. 宏志阁(H 座):不受火灾影响。

由于没有足够的资料从消防工程的角度进行可行性分析,这些估计数主要是根据闭路电视录像和证人证据得出的,可能不能准确反映逃生途径的实际可行性。尽管如此,它们为理解在宏福苑不同区块的人员伤亡差异提供了基础。

468. 根据我们对第 3 章 F 节死伤情况的分析:

  1. 2. 宏新阁(C 座)也遭受了严重的内部火灾破坏,宏道阁(B 座)和宏仁阁(A 座)有垂直快速火灾的凹入位附近的公寓严重受损。然而,在宏新阁(C 座)中只有两人死亡,在宏道阁

(B 座)中有两人死亡,在宏仁阁(A 座)中没有死亡。

655 警察局长何马文的声明[C19/2836-2837] 656 宏昌阁[01 /259]平板 2603 闭路电视录像;[o2/1727 - 1728] 657 宏盛阁[T3/32:20-33:32]居民梁浩显先生的证明;(IE6/1522) 658 IC 专家报告图 3-9 [ER3/2171] 659 [A2/5]

住户将有另外 7 分钟的时间在 15 点 05 分左右前门被碎片堵塞之前逃离。(b)同样,对于宏 泰阁,证据显示楼梯在 15 时 17 分左右被烟熏着。如果楼梯窗户没有被改成工人通道口, 这是不太可能发生的。如果楼梯没有烟雾,从通往后门的楼梯逃生的居民将有 13 分钟的时 间(后门直到 15:30 才被封锁),从通往前门的楼梯逃生的居民将有 4 分钟的时间(前门在 15:21 左右被火焰吞没)。由此可见,如果楼梯在这额外的几分钟内仍然可以通行,一些在 楼梯中丧生的人很可能已经逃脱了。 660 661

  1. 3. 逃生的窗口也较窄,因为火警警报不起作用,而发泡胶板挡住了他们的视线,居民甚至在时钟开始运行时都没有意识到火灾。(a)如果没有关闭火警警报,宏昌阁的火警警报最迟会在 14 时 54 分被 15 楼的居民激活,而/或更早由钟瑞霞女士激活。662 (b)对于宏泰阁,当火灾明显从宏昌阁蔓延时,火灾警报应该被激活,大约 15:00 时,第一个燃烧的液滴到达宏泰阁。如果做到了这一点,宏泰阁的居民将有大约 15 到 20 分钟的时间逃离。
  2. 1. 在一个每分钟都很重要的过程中,这额外的时间可能会产生影响。上文第 3 章总结的委员会收到的证据表明,这段额外的时间使宏新阁居民能够通过新闻报道和家庭成员和邻居的紧急电话了解火灾及其从楼宇到楼宇的蔓延。
  3. 2. 同样重要的是,宏新阁是仅有的两个发出火警警报的楼宇之一。这些特征可以解释为什么在宏新阁有 70 多个单元的居民能够逃脱,为什么尽管楼宇的每个单元都遭受了一定程度的火灾,但只有两名居民死亡。 663
  4. IFITF 还将宏新阁的低死亡人数归因于这样一个事实,即与楼梯相连的凹入位的垂直火势只发生在 16:41,比最初的火灾报告晚了近两个小时。664 471.1. 由此可见,在此之前,与宏昌阁和宏泰阁相比,楼梯可能没有那么多烟雾,在火灾的早期点,在楼梯附近经历了重新进入的火灾。471.2.然而,有证据表明,在垂直火势蔓延之前,宏新阁的多个楼层的走廊在 15:45

660 [04:23 . 6 . 34] [au:]根据上面的估计,宏新阁(C 座)的居民从第一个 999 电话开始撤离最多需要 54 分钟。 661 [C6/2440]。镜头中显示的时间比参考时间晚了大约 2 分钟[ER1/178]。 662 [T7/32:15-29] 663 IFITF 最终报告§10.4.9 [ER1/216] 664 IFITF 最终报告§10.4.9 [ER1/216]

左右就开始冒烟了。665 471.3. 看到烟雾弥漫的走廊的居民可能不敢冒险走出他们的公寓,因 此不知道楼梯是站住脚的。此外,委员会收到的证据并不表明居民在 15:45 之后仍然能够逃离宏新阁- -如第 3 章所述,最后一次已知逃离宏新阁是在 15:35 左右。

  1. 所有其他楼宇的居民都有一个多小时(在大多数情况下要长得多)的时间被警告火灾并撤离。这很容易解释为什么这些楼宇的死亡人数很少。
  2. 这些时间估计涉及通过逃生途径疏散的可行性。根据建筑物内特定房间或隔间的情况,居民可能会在建筑物内停留较长时间。委员会已经听取了一些居民的证据,他们通过运气和动态决策的结合,设法在室内避免烟雾,直到被消防员救出。666

E3. 有更多时间疏散的楼宇的死亡人数

  1. 个人逃生的可行性也取决于他们的年龄、行动能力、健康状况和意识。虽然宏道阁(B 座)、王孙(C 座)和宏盛阁(G 座)的住户有更多的时间撤离,但这些楼宇仍有人员死亡。474.1. 宏道阁(B 座)有两人死亡,一名 75 岁女子住在 2206 号单位李丽雯女士,另一名 89 岁女子住在 2207 号单位何美宝女士。

(一)李女士及其丈夫朱兆雄先生约于 15 时 30 分发现起火,并决定在公寓内等待救援。朱先生在烟雾中幸免于难,并于第二天下到一楼时获救,但他的妻子不幸因吸入烟雾而死亡。667

(二)至于何女士,她是坐在轮椅上,因吸入烟雾和缺血性心脏病而死亡。她的公寓可能弥漫着烟雾,因为她的家庭帮佣苏帕蒂尼女士在等待救援时失去了意识。668

  1. 2. 宏新阁(C 座)有两宗死亡个案:一名 83 岁女子(住在 1405 室)梁婉英女士,及一名 40

岁男子(住在 604 室)洪景良先生。如第三章所述,杨女士于 15 时 48 分左右被困在公寓

665 [C19/2836-2837]; [C20/2855-2861] 666 例如,b 张 Chi Lim George 先生的证据[T4/21:12-26:26] 667 [c21/2873 - 2878] 668 [c21/2879 - 2884]

内,当时她所在楼层的公共走廊已被烟雾笼罩。她的公寓也被大火严重损坏。至于洪先生, 他的公寓遭受了极其严重的火灾,他被发现时已面目全非。669 670 671 474.3. 宏盛阁(G 座)有一名死亡个案,死者为 2802 室的一名 77 岁男子。他的死因被确定为吸入烟雾和慢性阻塞性肺病。672

669 [B13/5722] 670 [ER2-1/624] 671 [ER2-1/624] 672 [B13/5722]

第 5 章火灾当日的应急行动

A. 灭火行动

A1. 14:51 ~ 14:55:初始部署

  1. 第一个报警电话是 14 点 50 分一位路人打的。电话于 14:50:07 由一名警方接线员接听,并于

28 秒后的 14:50:35 接通消防处消防通讯中心。673

  1. 3. 根据消防处 al 政策指令,由于 FH/HR 系统在宏福苑处通知关闭,又派遣了一个主泵。677

673 [A2/9] 674 邓永华 WS§§8-11 [WS1/40] 675 [B2/2106] 676 根据主要维修工程§5.6 [B2/2645]对宏福苑的应急计划,当时,面对回旋处的正面没有火灾或烟雾。他在路人的带领下,通过与宏盛阁(G 座)相邻的通道来到宏昌阁(F 座)的后立面,在那里他看到棚架结构被完全点燃,火焰蔓延到了八层或九层。[764] 677 DPI/IV/4.2.16 §3.1.2 [B2/2186]

:54:40, FSCC 又派出 4 架消防车到现场,包括 1 个搜救队(“SAR 队”),包括 1 个液压平台,1个轻型救援车和 1 个备用重型泵。这是《消防处通则》下的标准程序,当有两个或两个以上的呼叫者报告楼宇火警时。

消防处在接到首次 999 报警电话后的五分钟内,共派出 11 辆消防车和一辆救护车,由 61 名消防处人员驾驶。678 A2. 14:56 到 15:02:初步的消防工作

第一辆抵达现场的消防车是大埔消防局的液压平台。船员于 14:56:22 到达宏福苑回旋处。最初部署的其余六架消防车在 14:57:30 和 15:04:00 之间到达。679

在到达事故现场后,根据消防处的规定,许总警长担任事故指挥官。警长许家辉作证

时 57 分许院士向 FSCC 报告观测结果。他的讯息是:“一幢面积约 30 x 25 米的 31 层碾压混凝土住宅大厦(宏昌阁)外墙约 8 米宽、30 米高的棚架(朝港岛屋巷一侧)已被点燃。1 覆盖在宏昌阁”以外的露天场地使用的喷气机。680

据副局长许国辉说,他指示工作人员在最初的起火点位置放置两个喷水口进行消防。14:59 左右,他回到宏昌阁(F 座)外的环形交叉路口,在那里他看到一大片烟雾在宏昌阁上空升起。他还观察到,在 15 时左右,大火从宏昌阁的后方 farade 蔓延到宏泰阁(E 座)的西部farade 和东部 farade。681

时 02 分许局长将火灾升级为三级警报。他在证据中解释说,他这样做是因为当时烟雾和火焰几乎吞没了整个宏昌阁(F 座),并有蔓延到其他建筑物的危险。此外,碎片已经开始堵塞宏昌阁的入口,将乘客困在里面。因此,他评估说,最初的参加人数不足以应付这种规模的火灾。682

678 邓永华 WS§14 [WS1/41];(B5/4325) 679 Hui Kin On WS §8 [WS2/987]; [B13/5735-5738] 680 [B13/5735] 681 Hui Kin On WS §11 [WS2/989]; [T11/11:20-27] 682 [T11/13:34-14:3], Hui Kin On WS§12 [WS2/990]

也被派往了现场。683 A3. 15:02 到 15:35:3 号警报

  1. 警务处处长 b 张前往现场,而在 3 号火警初期,警务处处长许国荣继续担任事故指挥官。许局长解释说,在 15 点 05 分左右,他在宏昌阁(F 座)和宏泰阁(E 座)的环岛上又部署了3 个喷水口,并指示消防员清理堵塞宏昌阁入口的碎片,协助居民撤离。约 15 时 20 分,他指示从大埔东消防局新抵达的 37 米转盘梯上的船员将水监控器安装在当时已着火的宏盛阁

(G 座)上。684

ADO b 张于 15:19:49 到达现场,并于 15:19:58 担任事件指挥官。他作证说,他于 15:23 在宏泰阁附近的环形交叉路口遇到了 SStnO Hui, SStnO Hui 向他介绍了消防工作,包括 SStnO Hui 在 15:22 左右收到的求救信息。ADO b 张指示 SStnO Hui 继续灭火工作和Mayday 行动,并指示船员在宏建阁(D 座)和宏新阁(C 座)额外敷设两个消防软管,使总数达到 7 个软管。 685 686

沙田消防局一架 55 米高的转盘梯亦于 15 时 23 分抵达现场。它位于大埔路元洲仔宏泰阁(E 座)外。

683 [B13/5738] 684 Hui Kin On WS §§14-17 [WS2/990-991] 685 张乐行 WS§§6-8 [WS2/995-996] 686 [B13/5746]

图 5-1:地图显示了大约 15:23 687的消防水管、喷水头和转台梯的位置和位置

与地面情况同步,消防处处长杨仁坚于 15 时 14 分接获火警通知,并于 15 时 20 分启动处长指挥站。

消防处副处长霍俊明在火灾当日带领区警。他作证说,消防处处长是消防处处长的最高指挥中心,负责协调消防处的应变工作,并与其他政府决策局和部门联络。由于情况严重,警司直接由二级警司(包括两名高级警官、五名下级警官和四名其他成员)负责,并由一名助理警司(比通常负责警司的高级警司高两级)指挥。688

在紧急救援计划启动后,紧急救援计划额外部署了 10 支搜救队,包括 20 支消防车和 105 名人员,以处理激增的救援电话。警务处还设立了一个支助中心,设有 18 条电话线,以便为援助请求提供回拨机制,详情如下。689

消防处于 15 时 19 分 12 分通知水务署,水务署随即派当值人员赶赴现场。值班人员在 16 时到达后,打开了所有相关的总水管阀。水务署巡查街道消防栓时,录得持续供水量为 7 至

7.5 巴,远高于消防处的最低要求 1.7 巴。690

687 [B10/5556] 688 霍春明 WS§§5-7 [WS2/1014-1016] 689 霍春明 WS§§9-10 [WS2/1016-1017]军官,相对于由高级师长或师长指挥的 3 号火警。[779] 690 邓永华 WS§§4-6 [WS2/966-967]

A4. 15:35 - 16:35: 4 号警报的初始阶段

3 号警报火灾,以便在火灾升级为 4 号警报时能够尽快承担事件指挥官的角色。15 时 11 分, 他接到 FSCC 的火警通知,赶赴现场,当时火灾仍是三级警报。694 695

697 691 [T11/46:4-10] 692 [B13/5752] 693 [B13/5756] 694 黄景文 WS§5 [WS2/1006-1007] 695 [B13/5757] 696 黄景文 WS§§6-8 [WS2/1007-1008] 697 黄景文 WS§12 [WS2/1009]

16:10 到达。698

499. 在 4 号火警剩余的过程中,唐署长和陈署长采取了以下措施。

时 13 分,邓署长指示林度夫点名,以确保在找到何鸿燊后,没有其他船员下落不明。点名工作顺利完成。699

时 18 分,唐副官担任事件指挥官。在陈总司长(行动)的指示下,他指示总队调派新界北及新界南总区所有可用的高级人员赶赴现场。700

时 23 分,邓署长指派副首席财务官黄国明为搜救主任,负责所有搜救行动。701

时 28 分,隔间消防专家小组到达现场,并被部署到宏昌阁(F 座)协助灭火行动。702

从 16 时 30 分左右开始,消防处部署了具有直播和热成像功能的无人机,以覆盖火灾。703

A5. 16:35 以后:4 号警报后期

698 [B13/5769];(B13/5780) 699 唐永华 2nd WS§11 [WS2/968] 700 邓永华 2nd WS§14 [WS2/969];[B13/5784]。 701 邓永华 2nd WS§12 [WS2/968] 702 邓永华 2nd WS§13 [WS2/969] 703 邓永华 3 号WS§13 [WS6/1864] 704 德里克·阿姆斯特朗陈 WS 12 [WS8/1924-1925]。

图 5-2:在 18:00 706左右显示消防水管、喷水头和转台梯的位置和位置的地图

705 邓永华 2nd WS§17 [WS2/970] 706 [B10/5557] 707 Hui Kin On WS §17 [WS2/991]; [T19/11:23-33] 708 [t11/23:32-24:13, 33:6- 7,46:4 - 10,48:35 -49:1];邓永华 3 号WS§§15-16 [WS6/1865-1866] 509。在这种情况下,直 到 17 时 30 分,也就是消防处最初到场后大约两个半小时,消防处才得以清理出一条通往宏昌阁(F 座) 2/F 的通道。通道清理完毕后,消防队员于 17:40 从 202 单元救出了三名居民。[799] [798] 709 [T19/10:4-11:8] 710 邓永华 3 号WS§§17-19 [WS6/1866-1867]

漫的楼梯和较低楼层的大火也减慢了救援进度,在消防员向上推进之前,必须控制住火势, 以免他们的撤退路线被切断。711 A6. 18:22 以后:5 号警报

:22, DD(Ops) Chan 将火灾升级为 5 级警报。这是香港自 2008 年以来首次发生五级火灾。

陈司长解释说,为了部署更多的资源,不需要进行升级。当时,共有 116 辆消防车和 37 辆救护车和 718 名机组人员被派往现场。这大约是预定的 5 号火警出勤率的 6.5 倍。相反,升级为 5 级警报的主要目的是通过亲自控制消防工作来增强指挥权威。DD(Ops) Chan 解释说, 18:22 是一个合适的升级时间,因为情况越来越严重,加上夜幕降临,前线人员面临的风险增加。712

陈署长于 18 时 30 分在消防处的事故发生记录中报告,消防队员正在扑灭所有七个楼宇的大火。宏仁阁(A 座)和宏道阁(B 座)的地下和外墙、宏新阁(C 座)的地下、宏建阁(D 座)的地下、宏泰阁(E 座)的地下至 6 层、宏昌阁(F 座)的地下至 2 层和宏盛阁(G 座) 的地下至 1 层正在进行灭火。消防队员也在宏盛阁的地下层喷洒灭火喷雾,以防止火势蔓延到宏志阁(H 座)。713

在升级为 5 级火警后,尽管较低楼层的情况仍然严峻,消防队员还是成功地对较高楼层的住户进行了几次抢险救援。例如,消防队员于约 20 时成功救出位于宏泰阁(E 座) 1006 单位的志林乔治先生、他的妻子刘春雨女士及邻居叶锦芳女士,并于约 21 时成功救出位于宏泰阁 1406 单位的冼善兴女士。714

711 [T18/19:26-20:2] 712 陈·德里克·阿姆斯特朗 WS §24 [WS8/1930-1931];[T18/17:22-18:10] 713 [b13/5822]IFITF 认为前线人员成功地克服了消防站/人力资源系统关闭所带来的困难,因此对灭火行动的影响微乎其微。[805] 714 邓永华第三 WS§20 [WS6/1867]

5 号火警预定出勤率的 9 倍。 719 715 陈德里克·阿姆斯特朗 WS §20 [WS8/1929];[T18/20:20-30] 716 邓永华 2nd WS§31 [WS2/974-975] 717 [B9/4623] 718 董永基 WS§8.2 [WS4/1812];(T18/20:8-13) 719 邓永华 3 号WS§8 [WS6/1861-1862]

图 5-3:5 号报警火灾720时消防水管、喷水头和转台梯的位置和放置示意图

A7. 2025 年 11 月 27 日

520. 消防处于 2025 年 11 月 27 日逐步控制火势。

720 [B10/5558] 721 [B5/4392-4394] 722 [B13/6035] 723 [B13/6050]机组人员留在现场完成减振工作,并处理未完成的援助请求。[817]

点 31 分,陈署长宣布火势已被包围,这意味着火势不太可能蔓延到未受影响的单位。消防工作于 23:00 宣布完成。宏泰阁(E 座)、宏建阁(D 座)、宏新阁(C 座)和宏仁阁(A 座) 的灭火工作仍在继续。724 725 A8. 11 月 28 日 2025

大火于 2025 年 11 月 28 日 03:15 被宣布得到控制。其余区块的消防工作在以下几个小时内完成:宏建阁(D 座) 04:00, 宏仁阁(A 座) 05:00, 宏泰阁(E 座)和宏新阁(C 座)各08:00。726 727

:18, DD(Ops) Chan 发出了“停止”消息。这表明现场有足够的资源,不需要进一步的动员。当时,消防车为 143,消防车为 635

B. 警方参与

526. 警方亦参与紧急应变工作。

第一批警察于 14:59 到达现场。在 14:50 至 16:00 之间,共有 145 名警察对该事件作出反应并抵达现场。所有可用的警察战术部队(“PTU”)排都被指挥到现场,并于 17:30 到达。他们协助控制警戒线、清理伤亡人员、现场交通管理、与遇难者亲属沟通、记录伤亡情况和接待媒体。728 729

在 2025 年十一月二十六日至二十八日期间,警方共部署了 3,694 名警务人员处理事件。730

值得注意的是,在 16 时 13 分至 16 时 40 分之间,在宏志阁(H 座)和宏仁阁(A 座)部署了四队警察部队军官疏散居民。他们搜查了宏仁阁的 27 楼至 31 楼和宏志阁的 22 楼至 31 楼,

724 [B13/6086] 725 [B13/6076]; [T18/23:11-28] 726 [B13/6103, 6105, 6116-6117] 727 [B13/6099]; [T18/23:15-28] 728 余兆泉 WS§17 [WS2/1178] 729 林永诗 Emma 2nd WS [WS2/1208-1212] 730 黎咏诗 Emma WS 附件 2 [WS2/1166-1168]

成功疏散了 6 个公寓的 9 名居民。然而,行动被叫停,出于安全考虑,警察们在 16 点 50 分左右被命令撤离。731

  1. 2. 大埔分区助理分区指挥官高级督察林光财于 15 时 15 分在现场担任战术指挥官。大埔区副总警司黎豪辉于 15 时 44 分接班,总警司刘景麟于 18 时接班。732

(a) 196 起病例,涉及 166 人,已证实死亡; (b) 40 起案件,涉及 37 人受伤;

(c) 184 个病例涉及经确认安全的个人;

(d) 37 宗与事件发生前已去世或离港人士有关的个案;

(e) 31 人因资料不足而被列为无法追查;和

(f) 1 宗个案涉及一名无意报案的来电者。

731 张雷 WS [WS17/2203-2207] 732 余少泉 WS§§8,16 [WS2/1172-1174, 1178] 733 余少泉 WS§§11,18 [WS2/1176, 1179] 734 [T12/70:16-19] 735 曾淑贤 WS§§20-25 [WS1/238]

  1. 3. 时 23 分,还动员了一个伤亡记录小组前往医院协助医院查询。736
  1. 4. 在 2025 年 11 月 26 日晚上,政府动员了灾难受害者身份鉴定组(DVIU)来寻找和识别火灾中的遇难者。执法部共部署了 605 名警官。737

C. 求助请求的接收及处理

533. 在火灾过程中,警方及消防处接获并处理了大量的协助要求。

C1. 999 个电话

736 余少泉§8 [WS2/1173] 737 郑家纯 WS§17 [WS1/274-275] 738 黄思璐 Sunny WS§4.2.3 [WS1/161-162] 537。根据火灾发生时有效的人员配备安排,消防服务中心设有 30 条电话线,白天有 37 名人员,夜间有 31 名人员。[835] 739 何洁仪 WS§§10-11,附件 3 [WS2/1061-1062, 1133]

名。740平均等待时间在 16:00 到 16:59 之间减少到 23 秒,然后在 17:00 到 17:59 之间减少到 7 秒。在此期间,RCCC NT 在任何时候都没有达到 69 个呼叫的最大处理能力。741 742

740 周永仪 WS§15 [WS2/1139-1140] 741 周永仪 WS§15 [WS2/1139-1140] 742 何洁仪 WS 附件 3 [WS2/1133] 743 [T12/17:1-33, 58:7-9] 744 [C9/2576-2578] 745 黄世禄阳光 2nd WS§4.5.1 [WS1/164] 746 [T12/51:5-9, 53:14-24] 747 [T12/53:36-54:4]

600 多个援助请求。在重复数据删除后,这些请求被确认仅与 309 个单独的位置相关。 748 C2. 其他沟通渠道

个求助请求(警备中心从保安局辖下的电子保安系统等不同来源获取资料)。749 C3. 处理协助要求

在重复数据删除后,消防处共接获 373 宗个别协助要求,涉及 347 个单位。750

鉴于上述具有挑战性的条件,在火灾的最初阶段,只能处理有限数量的援助请求。那些基本上未受火灾影响的楼宇(对居民的直接危险较低)的请求在此期间没有得到响应,因为资源优先用于最危险的楼宇。

因此,来自宏志阁(H 座)和宏建阁(D 座)的一些援助请求只在请求后 9 个小时才得到处理。在事件最严重的时候,积压了 174 项未处理的援助请求。751

549. 火警期间接获和处理的援助请求数目载列于下表:

表 5-1:消防处在救援行动中接获及处理的援助要求

时间 收到请求 处理请求 11 月 26 日 14:51 - 15:59 55 0 16:00 - 17:59 33 6 18:00 - 19:59 82 5 20:00 - 21:59 9 16

748 黄世禄 Sunny 2nd WS§4.7.4 [WS1/165-166] 749 [T17/52:13-27] 750 邓永华 WS§47 [WS1/49-50] 751 [B13/6185-6201]

时间 收到请求 处理请求 22:00 - 23:59 17 18 11 月 27 日 00:00 - 03:59 34 38 04:00 - 07:59 71 68 08:00 - 11:59 13 33 12:00 - 15:59 7 60 16:00 - 19:59 33 62 20:00 - 23:59 10 25 11 月 28 日 00:00 - 03:59 1 16 04:00 - 07:59 1 4 08:00 - 11:59 7 11 12:00 - 15:59 0 2

  1. 消防处在事故现场共救出 62 人,并打捞出 106 名遇难者。消防处亦搜获 60 只宠物及 62 具宠

物尸体。752

D. 消防员何伟豪

752 [B13/6153-6155, 6185-6201] 753 邓永华 3 号WS§13 [WS6/1864]

何峰是沙田消防局的一名消防员。当时他 37 岁。何俊峰于当日 09:00 开始轮班,并与 Fn 17569 杨程(“Fn Yeung”)和 Fn 22662 萧梓浩(“Fn Siu”)一起被分配到轻型救援部队。754

按照消防处的常规程序,何鸿燊于每日九时三十分对他的呼吸器装置进行测试。没有发现缺陷。作为同一测试过程的一部分,他记录了气瓶的剩余空气含量为 285 巴,这将提供大约30 分钟的工作时间。755

在一号火警发生后,沙田轻型救援队是首批被派往现场的消防车消防车之一。它于 15:01:34 到达现场。756

:03, SStnO Hui 收到来自 FSCC 关于宏昌阁(F 座) 2701 单元的协助请求的消息。许仕仁警长命令沙田消防局主要泵房主管廖孔立见习主任(“廖警长”)

按照廖局长的指示,15 时 15 分左右,何峰、杨峰和肖峰朝宏昌阁(F 座)方向前进。他们经过了一个自行车棚,那里有一些居民,包括一位坐轮椅的老人。 757

当他们经过时,何芳、杨芳和萧芳示意居民向宏建阁(D 座)方向撤离。何鸿燊停下来帮助坐轮椅的老人。杨芳和萧芳继续穿过自行车棚朝宏昌阁(F 座)方向前进,没有注意到何芳被落在后面。以下图片描绘了(i)三名消防员进入自行车棚,(ii)- (iii)杨惠芬和萧惠芬穿过自行车棚前往宏昌阁,以及(iv)何惠芬协助轮椅上的老人。

754 [WS2/990] 755 [B9/4820] 756 [B13/5734, 5736] 757 监控录像中的时间戳比参考时间晚了大约两分钟。

图 5-4:宏泰阁 (15:13:26, 15:13:29, 15:13:34, 15:13:41) 758监控录像中的静止图像

758 [A2/62-63] 759 [WS15/2185-2192]

图 5-5:宏泰阁自行车棚、正门、电梯(15:13:49,15:13:53,15:15:00,15:15:54)闭路监控录像中的静止图像 760

761 760 [A2/49, 63]; [C6/2440] 761 Hui Kin On WS §19 [WS2/991]

许局长认为有一名消防员被困在宏昌阁(F 座)内,于是组成 4 个应急小组,畅通进入宏昌阁内部的通道。许副局长随后与廖副局长会面,廖副局长告知许副局长,发出求救讯息的是何鸿燊。 廖国荣司长受许国荣司长指示,为何鸿燊成立第五个应急小组。762

大约 15:55,DO Lam 注意到几名消防员正在清理宏泰阁(E 座)前门外的空地上的碎片。当他到达那个地点时,他看到Fn Ho 一动不动地躺在一堆燃烧的竹子和碎片上。763

Fn Ho 从废墟中被救出,交给现场的救护人员照顾。他被送往威尔士亲王医院,并于 16 时 41 分被宣布死亡。 764

法医病理科高级医疗卫生主任郭家麒医生拟备的尸检报告显示(i)何鸿燊身体各部位大面积皮肤烧伤;(ii)包括头部在内的多处瘀伤和撕裂伤;(iii)脊柱、左侧肋骨、左侧骨盆、左肩、左臂骨和左前臂骨骨折;以及(iv)脑出血。这些伤口表明身体左侧受到坚硬表面的撞击, 比如在坠落时。在他肺部的小气道中也有烟灰沉积,碳氧血红蛋白含量为 26%,表明他在火灾时还在呼吸,还活着,在现场吸入了一氧化碳烟雾。尸检确定 Fn Ho 的死因是吸入烟雾和大面积烧伤,头部和颈部受伤是主要原因。765

当 Fn Ho 位于宏泰阁(E 座)外时,他穿着标准的 t 恤和裤子,PBI 矩阵裤子,防闪光罩,无线电话,右手戴着阻燃手套。他的

在 31 楼电梯大堂发现了 Fn Ho 的呼吸器、头盔和口罩。他左手的手套和锤子被发现在同一电梯大厅的窗台上,在一扇破碎的窗户前。他的靴子在宏泰阁外的地面上找到了。

762 Hui Kin On WS§§20-21 [WS2/992]的衣服有多处烧焦和撕裂,他的左手手套、头盔、锤子、呼吸器、面罩和胶靴都不见了。 763 林浩春 WS§10 [WS2/1002] 764 林浩春 WS§11 [WS2/1003] 765 [ER2-3/1600]

图 5-6:宏泰阁 31 层电梯大厅窗台照片及发现 Fn Ho 消防靴766位置地图

随后对 Fn Ho 的呼吸器套装及配套设备进行检查和测试,发现:573.1. Fn Ho 的呼吸器包布袋破损,气瓶阀门破损,气瓶空。767 573.2. Fn Ho 的 alphaSCOUT 设备(一种附加在呼吸器上的电子设备,用于记录气体消耗并在检测到没有运动时发出噪音)由于浸入水中而导致数据丢失。768 573.3. 与 Fn Ho 的呼吸器相连的消防员定位系统(“FLS”)的个人发射器(发出无线电信号,使搜救队能够定位遇险的消防员)没有启动,因为红色激活键仍然插入单元中。 769

根据现行程序,消防队员在入口管制站取下所附的红色激活钥匙,并将其交给入口管制主任, 即可启动外援的个人发射器。然而,由于 Fn Ho 在进入宏泰阁(E 座)时没有通过任何入境

766 [ER1/189] 767 [b9/4791-4792] 575。董栋梁作证说,消防处对汽缸阀如何受损没有明确的假设。他指出,这种情况非常罕见, 因为钢瓶阀是由耐用的金属制成的,并由橡胶减震器保护。一种可能是它被硬撞击损坏了。然而,无法确定撞击发生的时间。遗憾的是,没有数据可以从 alphaSCOUT 中恢复,结果是消防处很少看到 Fn Ho 的最后时刻。[870] 768 [B9/4799] 769 [B9/4795, 4798]

控制点,红色激活密钥从未从他的个人发射器中取出。SStnO Hui 解释说,他们的意图是在宏昌阁(F 座)内建立一个入口控制点,但由于入口受阻,消防员无法进入该楼宇。无论如何,Fn Ho 没有输入宏昌阁,而是输入了宏泰阁。 770

  1. 然而,委员会已收到间接证据,可能使它能够重现胡民的最后活动。可能是何某打破了宏泰阁(E 座) 31 楼电梯大堂的玻璃窗,脱下他的呼吸器,爬上棚架,试图逃离宏泰阁较高楼层的生命危险,因此他从高处坠落。
  2. 最后,助理处长Yiu Men Yeung 作证说,Fn Ho 到达宏泰阁 25 楼时,他的气缸仍有约 30 分钟的工作时间,如果他选择这样做,这足以使他撤回安全。他没有。相反,证据表明他继续向上,并极有可能留在宏泰阁的高层,以帮助被困在那里的居民。771所有证据表明,Fn Ho 在履行职责时牺牲了自己的生命,在非常危险的情况下,同时试图拯救他人。

E. 灭火、疏散及紧急呼叫行动评估

E1. 概观

  1. 宏福苑的火灾在规模和情况上都是前所未有的。在最近的记忆中,没有其他火灾吞没了多栋高层建筑的前部,更不用说以这样的速度了。 772
  2. 消防处在火灾当天面临着一项艰巨的任务,由于坠落的碎片、失效的火警警报器和受保护楼梯中的修改过的工人通道口,任务变得更加困难。最初的事故指挥官之一 ADO b 张承认, 消防处的行动策略根本不是针对这种性质的火灾而设计的。773
  3. 委员会听到了许多消防员为了拯救生命而置个人安全于不顾的例子。他们在如此危险的情况下表现出的英雄主义应该受到赞扬。 774

770 Hui Kin On 2nd WS §6 [WS15/2194] 771 [T26/45:27-31] 772 [T27/45:6-7]火势迅速蔓延,造成人员伤亡和财产损失,并在这方面提出建议。这项任务需要对消防处和警方在火灾当天的反应进行批判性评估,以确保吸取教训,以备将来之需。这一评价丝毫没有减损我们对救火消防员的英勇、奉献和个人牺牲的集体感激。 773 [T11/34:35-35:11]

E2. 初始反应和升级

DD(Ops) Chan 在他的证据和政府在其结案陈词: 778 585.1 中公平地承认了这一点。消防处的 《升级火警警报指引》指出,“若火警未能由最初到场人员有效处理”,则应将 1 级或 2 级火 警升级为 3 级火警。到达事故现场后,事故指挥官必须估计他所掌握的资源是否足以有效和及时地处理事故。值得注意的是,“除非[事故指挥官]充分了解火灾的大小和位置,并确信 火灾可以在短时间内被控制以消除对居住者的风险,否则火灾应立即升级”(强调原文)。779 585.2. 该指南总结了一条“黄金法则”,其中指示事件指挥官“如果有疑问,就在安全的一边犯错, 并发出警报”(强调添加)。 774 董永基 WS§8.2 [WS4/1812];(T18/20:8-13) 775 [T12/62:27-63:1] 776 杨仁坚安迪 2nd WS§§5-6 [WS2/1028-1029] 777 [B13/5734] 778 [T18/27:34-28:18];政府关门§§805-811 779 [B9/4854-4858]

  1. 3. 许副警长于 14 时 57 分向消防总队报告时,火势已达 8 米宽,30 米高。他还注意到,宏昌阁(F 座)的后门被碎片堵住了。到 14 点 59 分,大火也迅速蔓延到整个重返大气层。正如陈署长接受的那样,在当时已经有足够的理由将警报升级为 3 号警报。

图 5-7:叶辉先生拍摄的视频静止图像(14:56:58,14:57:38 和 14:57:57)780

  1. 4. 同样,在火势共蔓延至 5 个楼宇后,781在垂直火势蔓延至 6 个重新进入通道后,宏昌阁和宏泰阁入口完全被碎片堵塞后,火灾才升级为 4 级警报。到目前为止,消防处已经收到 37 份援助请求。此外,消防处亦接到何鸿燊的求救电话,需要调拨其他工作的资源。这种情况证明在较早阶段升级警报是合理的。
  2. 虽然差异可能只有几分钟,但这些决定直接影响了消防车和人员在火灾早期关键阶段到达现场的速度。每一秒都很重要:如果能在火势迅速发展之前就把它控制住,结果可能会有所不同。782
  3. 事实上,火灾初期的人手不足,令消防处在灭火行动中不得不作出艰难的取舍。587.1.陈署长

(行动)承认,消防处初期的工作重点是扑灭 F 座和 E 座宏昌阁和宏泰阁的大火,未能腾出人手逐层疏散其他楼宇。消防处的证据是,这种资源的优先级“可能延迟了火势的蔓延[到其

780 [a2 / 11,12]初始阶段的工作主要集中在清理进入王畅和地面宏泰阁的入口。无论如何,这些决定不可避免地导致其他楼宇的一些受害者家属,例如母亲在火灾中丧生的钟萧培女士,质疑消防处是否没有适当地优先照顾他们的亲人。[885] 781 [B13/5756] 782 副消防处处长林健钧证言[T25/26:1-4]

他楼宇]”,但这可能是值得怀疑的,因为火灾主要是通过飞行的余烬和高空碎片传播的,而消防处的灭火工作 783 784 587.2. 甚至在后来的火灾中,也有人力紧张的情况。民政首席财务官黄国强解释说,搜救队根据受火灾影响的严重程度被分配到不同的地区,导致宏志阁(H 座)和宏建阁(D 座)的一些救援请求需要超过 9 个小时才能处理。785

  1. 所有这些意见都没有减损事故指挥官在现场所面临的极其困难的情况。然而,消防处有责任检讨指引,并加强对可能担任事故指挥官职务的人员的培训,以确保在遇到类似性质的火灾时,及早升级处理。委员会指出,政府在其结案陈词中承诺进行这样一项审查。786
  2. 消防处认识到 BMR 工程会带来极大的火灾风险,因此亦应审慎检讨这些火灾的预定上座率是否足够。因此,酒店火灾、医院火灾、供水有限场所火灾、危险品火灾等其他高风险火灾, 预先确定为 2 号报警火灾:589.1. 目前,消防处将正在进行翻新的建筑物的火灾列为一级火警,但提供额外的消防车作为应急计划。陈署长的证据显示,他们目前的做法为消防处提供了更大的灵活性。787
  3. 2. 鉴于正在进行楼宇管理系统工程的楼宇有严重的火警风险,在这些情况下,将楼面火警分类为二级或以上火警,既可提供最低标准的火警反应,又可避免负责制订应变计划的人员作出不一致的决策。我们欢迎政府支持对正在进行大规模翻新工程的楼宇的警报级别制度进行具体检讨。788
  4. 3. 委员会将注意到,宏福苑的应急计划规定,在发生火灾时,在不区分内部和外部火灾、一天中的时间和受影响的建筑物数目的情况下,再部署一个大型水泵和轻型救援股,所有这些都可能影响到所需灭火行动的规模。消防处不妨考虑应否检讨有关制订应变计划的指引。 789

783 [T18/26:9-28] 784 [ER1/198] 785 [T11/58:5-23] 786 政府结案§815。 787 [T18/28:35-29:11] 788 政府结案陈词第 818 条。 789 [B2/2645]

  1. 2. 当天的消防行动并没有动用消防处当天的全部资源,而且由于场地的限制,这样做也不实际。
  2. 3. 此外,有证据显示,在有需要时,消防处确实调配了超出 5 级警报的资源。在消防处行动最繁忙的时候,人员人数超过预定的 5 级警报出勤率约 9 倍。
  3. 最后,消防处在这次火灾中采取的行动策略,可为日后的火灾提供有用的经验。例如,委员会听取的证据显示,消防处采用逐栋指挥策略,以配合每个楼宇的不同情况,这在消防处的行动历史上是前所未有的。消防处在进行整体检讨时,不妨考虑是否应将这些措施纳入多幢楼宇火灾的标准程序。 791

E3. 部署消防器材及设备

592. 委员会在听取证据的过程中探讨了消防处行动能力的几个方面。

(i)转盘梯子

  1. 公众讨论的一个关键问题是唱盘梯(也称为空中设备)的使用。如上所述,第一架云梯于

15:02 到达现场。在灭火行动最激烈的时候,共使用了 8 架转台云梯。

790 [B2/2089] 791 [T18/40:11-13];邓永华 WS§50.5 [WS1/51]

蒸发水产生的蒸汽可能会危及建筑物内等待救援的人员和消防员。因此,外部水监控器通常用作水帘和洒水装置,以防止火势蔓延,而不是直接扑灭火灾。792

  1. 消防处目前使用的最高的设备是 56 米高的转盘梯,大约有 17 层楼高。这是消防处的证据: 793 595.1. 到达的高度受香港紧急车辆通道 es 的设计限制,该设计要求宽度不少于 6 米,承重能力为 30 吨。595.2.虽然市面上有 100 米的转台梯,但这种设备重达 60 吨,需要 10 米的外伸臂,因此在香港大多数 zterm00002se 上操作是不切实际的。就宏福苑而言,部署

100 米高空梯平台的最近可行地点是大埔路元洲仔,距离宏新阁约 46 米。在这个距离上, 救援笼不可能接近建筑物进行空中救援,而且水柱会受到很大的偏转。

  1. 在评估消防处的解释时,我们必须注意到消防处确实在火灾当天部署了转台云梯进行外部灭火。外部消防在宏福苑中很重要,以控制沿建筑物正面迅速蔓延的火势。
  2. 此外,消防处自己的证据是,由于王畅和宏泰阁(F 座和 E 座)的入口受到阻碍,内部灭火工作被推迟。因此,消防处只能在行动初期进行外部灭火行动。794
  3. 由于外部灭火是有效的,而且在火灾初期是唯一可用的灭火方式,因此人们有理由质疑消防处是否应该在火灾初期部署更多的转台云梯,以限制外部火势蔓延的速度和范围。
  4. 与源自建筑物内部的火灾相比,外墙火灾具有明显更高的迅速和不受控制的火势蔓延的风险。这一风险可能证明有必要加强预先确定的空中设备部署,以应对可疑的前部火灾,以便尽早 进行有效的外部灭火。有人认为,消防处应制订具体的程序,以处理上文所述的事项,以应 付郊区火灾。
  5. 消防处亦应不断检讨其转台云梯的数目和规格,以及有关紧急车辆通道的标准,以确保其能力能配合科技和社会的发展,并在香港这样一个人口密集的城市环境下,足以应付复杂的高层楼宇火灾。

792 黄世禄 Sunny WS§8.1 [WS1/65-66];邓永华 3rd WS§35 [WS6/1872-1873] 793 黄世禄 Sunny WS§8.2-8.4 [WS1/66-69] 794 IFITF 最终报告§5.2.2.7-5.2.2.8 [ER1/45]

(ii) 水压

  1. 委员会听取了居民的指控,他们说,在火灾的最初阶段,由于水压不足,消防反应受到阻碍, 而且水柱无法到达宏昌阁(F 座)的一楼以外。795
  2. 当 SStnO Hui 在他的证词中被问及这一点时,他作证说,当天的供水充足,水压没有问题,因为水通常通过消防车泵入软管,以确保足够的压力。正如上文所述,消防处亦引述证据显示, 水务署在约 16 时曾派人手到现场,将水压提高至约 7 至 7.5 巴。796 797
  3. 委员会收到的照片和录像证据表明,前线人员能够部署水管和水监测仪(例子如下)。没有直接证据表明水压不足,或者这阻碍了消防行动。

795 [T4/9:33-10:5] 796 邓永华 WS§§4-6 [WS2/966-967] 797 [T11/22:33-35, 27:30-36]

图 5-8:旁观者拍摄的静止图像(大约 15:11,15:16,15:45)和宏泰阁自行车棚的闭路电视录像(15:17:42)798

(iii) 呼吸器及其他设备

  1. 委员会听取了关于消防员个人装备是否充足的证据。消防员提供的证据表明,这些规定是高标准的,并不断得到审查和改进。799
  2. 董东东特别解释说,消防处已于 2014 年 5 月用 8 升 7.3 公斤的 MSA 气瓶取代原来的 6.7 升
  3. 5 公斤气瓶,以增加储气量,同时减轻气瓶的重量。在二零二六年一月,MSA 的气瓶进一步更换为 8 升 7.1 公斤的 Interspiro 气瓶,这些气瓶还配备了“TeamTalk”功能,以方便团队内部的沟通,并配备了紧急呼吸安全系统,使团队成员之间能够共享空气。因此,消防处多年来减少了消防员使用的呼吸器气瓶的重量,而不影响空气容量。800
  4. 董德东亦解释说,消防处虽然备有双缸呼吸器灭火器材,可让消防队员在现场多待 20 分钟,

但这些器材较笨重(分别为 20.5 公斤和 14.5 公斤),消防队员很难把器材搬上搬下楼梯。 其他形式的呼吸器,如闭路呼吸器(具有 3 小时的理论工作时间)和客机(具有理论上无限

798 [A2/60]; [C20/2872]; [IE4/1466]; [A2/63] 799 [T11/26:32-27:3, 61:32-62:1] 800 董永基 2nd WS§§5-9 [WS15/2196-2197]

的持续时间)同样不适合-前者不能暴露在明火或辐射热中,而后者要求消防员连接到最大长度为 90 米的空气软管。801

  1. 最后,董栋梁解释,将消防人员的工作时间限制在 33 分钟,也有实际的安全原因,即担心疲劳和热应力。802
  2. 由于这些原因,有人认为,宏福苑消防队员使用的个人设备是足够的,并不是消防处当天行动的限制因素。

E4. 呼吸器操作日志

相反,这次火灾暴露了消防处在记录和记录消防行动方面的现有程序的局限性。

根据消防处的操作指引,所有消防员在进入火灾现场前,必须经过一个入口管制站(以琥珀色闪烁灯标示)。在入境控制点,作为入境控制员的团队成员被要求为团队成员完成入境前检查清单,并在入境控制日志上记录详细信息。FS 手册第 6 章§5.16 规定:“将保存每位通过入境控制点的佩戴者的记录,并将这些信息转发到各自的站点以进入 FS 91”。803

董东东承认,在消防行动期间生成的呼吸器作业日志表不完整。航海日志是手写的。在日志表用完后,一些条目管理人员删除了以前的条目,并用新的记录覆盖它们。董东东承认“在某些情有可原的情况下,该程序可能没有得到充分遵守”。804

呼吸器操作日志的不准确性和不完整性令人不满意,即使没有显示操作困难导致了这种情况。这些日志对于跟踪火灾现场的消防队员是必不可少的,对于事后重建操作顺序也很重要。值 得欢迎的是(董东东在证词中证实),消防处正推行电子入库管制日志,以减少日后出现人 为失误的风险。805

801 董永基 2nd WS§§10-13 [WS15/2197-2198] 802 [T18/3:8-12] 803 [b2/2349]首先,消防处需要考虑采取措施,减少消防员在火灾现场与其他工作人员分开的风险。这可能需要采取措施,使消防员能够识别和跟踪他们的团队成员。 804 董永基 WS§8 [WS4/1811-1813] 805 [T18/13:7-11]

E5. 操作安全——从何鸿燊事件中吸取的教训

  1. 我们也可以从何鸿燊的悲惨死亡中吸取痛苦的教训。消防处的评估认为“[何鸿燊或其团队成员] 并无疏忽或不遵守程序”。806显示,问题可能更深层地存在于现有程序本身。
  2. 证据表明,何鸿燊只花了几秒钟就与队友分开了。附近的其他消防员也穿着相同的装备,这意味着杨惠芬和萧惠芬没有意识到何惠芬失踪了。807
  3. 第二,消防处需要考虑如何确保在多幢住宅屋苑救火的消防员能够区分不同的楼宇。

图 5-9:宏泰阁改造前入口照片和宏昌阁改造时入口照片808

806 IFITF 最终报告§9.2.7.4 [ER1/193] 807 [WS15/2185-2192] 808 [C7/2540, 2542]

收到的唯一援助请求是关于宏昌阁(F 座)的。那名消防员在电梯大厅被大火吞噬之前侥幸逃脱了宏泰阁。 809

图 5-10:宏泰阁入口 CCTV 静止画面(15:16:37,15:17:17) 810

端机获取现场的地理空间地图。此外,机动指挥单位(第一批于 15:42 到达现场)也可以显示个别屋苑的布局图。811

809 监控录像里的时间戳比参考时间晚了两分钟。 810 [C6/2440] 811 [T11/3:18-24, 18:1-3];黄景文 WS§11 [WS2/1008]

显的标志,以识别每幢楼及其出入口,而该等标志须在为工程而竖立棚架或网的情况下仍然清晰可见。

  1. 第三,在Fn Ho: 621.1 的情况下,用于定位遇险消防员的设备和程序被证明是不够的。如上所述,当他进入宏泰阁时,Fn Ho 在他的呼吸器上佩戴了消防员定位系统(FLS)个人发射器。消防队员必须在入口控制点激活他们的个人发射机,从个人发射机上取下红色的激活钥匙, 并将钥匙交给入口控制人员。在个人发射器被激活后,如果消防员静止 45 秒或手动激活报警按钮,个人发射器将发出声音和视觉警报,并发送具有唯一标识符的无线电信号,消防员可以使用手持接收器检测到该信号。然后,紧急救援队就可以依靠无线电信号来确定遇险船员的位置。812 621.2. 由于 Fn Ho 在进入宏泰阁时没有通过任何入境控制点,因此他的 FLS 个人发射器未被激活,无法用于定位他。
  2. 3. 陈司长作证说,对于单一单位的火灾,入口管制站通常会设在受影响单位的两层楼以下,不受烟雾影响的地方。因此,Fn Ho 只有在到达宏泰阁的 25 楼时才会意识到没有入境控制点。

813

  1. 4. 如果是这样,消防处在以下方面的程序仍有改善的空间:(i)如何设立入境管制站;(ii)如何向消防队员通报入境管制站的位置;以及(iii)无法找到入境管制站的消防队员是否应撤退及/或立即启动个人发射机。
  2. 5. 此外,消防处的现行程序只规定“入口管制站须设于安全及方便的地方,尽量靠近受影响处所的入口,但不受烟雾或烟雾影响”。814并没有就如何进行评估提供指引。事后看来,如果在受影响的建筑物外设立Fn Ho 的入境控制点(就像另一个被指派响应相同援助请求的单位

812 董永基 WS§§7.1-7.4 [WS4/1809-1810] 813 [T18/34:10-26]控制点]程序"。虽然实地的情况肯定是困难和混乱的,但在我们看来,这似乎是一个不令人满意的答案,因为入境管制程序的性质是在紧急情况下实施的。尽管如此,政府已在其结案陈词文件中证实,消防处正在检讨入境管制站的程序,以专门处理多楼宇火灾,并改善前线人员的楼宇识别机制。这当然是受欢迎的。 [917] [918] 814 [B2/2346]

所做的那样),815他的个人发射器可能已经按照入境控制程序被激活,然后他的同事可能已经能够找到他。 621.6. 政府在其结案陈词文件中指出,Fn Ho 的 FLS 失效是“初期阶段的速度和混乱”的结果,而不是“进入的系统性失败”

  1. 这并不是第一次发生由于发射机失效而无法定位遇险消防员的情况。2016 年 6 月 21 日,阿莫

伊坎工业中心 4 号报警器发生火灾,造成两名消防员不幸丧生,其中一名消防员在没有启动alphaSCOUT 设备的情况下进入火灾现场。该事件的 IFITF 指出,未能激活该设备“将对搜索和救援行动产生重大影响”,以确定消防员的位置。令人遗憾的是,在香港最近发生的两起消防人员死亡事件中,旨在定位遇险消防员的操作安全系统并没有投入运作。 816 817

  1. 另外,消防处的证据显示,即使何鸿燊的个人发射器被激活,其信号也可能无法到达地面上

的应急反应小组。董栋梁表示,在高层楼宇内,个人发射机信号的实际范围约为 23 层。在一个高楼林立的城市,这是消防处需要解决的技术限制。董栋梁证实消防处有 E6. 疏散

(我)概述

624. 宏福苑居民的撤离由于他们对火灾的延迟意识而受到阻碍。

815 负责处理宏昌阁 2701 单位救援要求的小沥源站灯光救援队,于约 15 时 01 分在大埔浸信会学校旁设立入境管制站[C6/2442]。 816 [B5/3016]。在该事件发生时,消防员还没有配备消防员定位系统,只配备了 alphaSCOUT,该系统在遇险时会发出声音警告系统。 817 §7.1.5.2 [B5/3016]

人员也赶到现场,并试图激活宏仁阁(A 座)、宏道阁(B 座)和宏志阁(H 座)的火灾报警器,但没有成功。818 819 820 821

  1. 由于 8 个楼宇中有 6 个楼宇的火警警报器不起作用,大多数居民从邻居、家人或朋友那里, 从烟雾中,或从火灾的声音和紧急车辆的警报器中得知火灾的消息。国际乒联根据证人陈述和调查问卷汇编的以下摘要说明了这一点:822

发现方式 居民证人陈述书 百分比 居民问卷 百分比 目击火灾或烟雾 43 14.8% 48 8.3% 闻到了烟 48 16.5% 110 19.0% 听到燃烧的声音 10 3.4% 12 2.1% 听到警报声/看到消防车 32 11.0% 30 5.2% 听到火警警报 1 0.3% 39 6.7% 被他人告知 157 54.0% 340 58.7% 总计 291 100% 579 100%

  1. 鉴于上述情况,有一个合理的问题是,一旦火灾明显从一个楼宇蔓延到另一个楼宇,消防处是否可以而且应该采取更多措施疏散宏福苑所有楼宇的居民。即使如政府在其结案陈词文件中所提出的那样,飞行余烬蔓延火势的可能性“从一开始就无法预测”,但在 15 时火势蔓延

到宏泰阁(E 座)时,这种可能性当然是可以预测的。 823

818 姜世明 3rd WS§4 [WS4/1799-1801] 819 [T11/12:7-13] 820 此限定是指在 15:35 时,宏新阁的火警警报器应已由林文仁先生启动:见[IE2-2/887-889]。 821 [T11/22:22-25] 822 [ER1/218] 823 政府结案§801

这些楼宇的三人死亡。同样,对于宏新阁(C 座),如果林文仁先生更早触发火警(在824的 15 点 23 分至 15 点 35 分之间),可能会使杨云英女士和洪敬良先生在他们仍然能够撤离大楼的时候意识到火灾。

  1. 正如上文所述,陈署长的证据是,消防处把现有的资源集中在扑灭旺昌和宏泰阁(F 座和E 座) 的大火上,无法腾出人手疏散其他座的居民。虽然警方确实进行了疏散行动,但只限于王岩 和宏志阁的几层楼(A 和 H 座),直到 16:13 才开始疏散,此时大多数其他楼宇已经被烟雾 吞没。 825
  2. 这些证据只突显出,如果消防处在当天更迅速地加强反应和部署,行动可能会更有效。此外, 消防处和警方亦有需要制订更清晰和全面的程序,以便日后在处理楼宇火警初期,疏散住户, 而不是在火警发生后才临时采取行动。消防处可能还需要考虑更清晰的协议,以便在发现有 故障的火警警报系统或其他消防装置时升级其响应。

(2)塞壬

  1. 消防处可能需要检讨的另一项事项是有关在消防车上使用警报器的政策。正如保安局局长许国强及林涛证实,消防处现行政策规定消防车在抵达时必须关掉警报器,以减低噪音。826
  2. 虽然这种做法通常是有道理的,但在火灾报警器关闭的情况下,警报器可以提醒居民注意火灾。多位居民称火灾现场出奇地安静。除了竹子燃烧的噼啪声,什么也听不见。因此,公寓里的居民可能意识到有什么不对劲时,已经太晚了。消防处不妨考虑修订其政策,以便在建筑物的火警警报器不起作用时,消防车应保持警报器的鸣响,以最大限度地提醒住户。

824 [IE2-2/888] 825 [T18/25:36-26:8] 826 [t11/7:24-8:5, 48:9-12]宏福苑的应急计划规定,“当在事故附近行驶时,消防车应该只打开闪光灯。”警报器只能在必要的情况下使用”[B2/2646]。

(三)紧急警报系统

827 [T18/30:4-35:19] 828 [B2/1323] 829 [B2/1319] 830 [T18/31:2-7] 831 政府改善措施表第 A12(iv)条

E7. 处理协助要求

(i)与“999”呼叫者的通讯

  1. 火警发生初期,消防中心无法处理大量的 999 电话。对于苦恼的来电者来说,等待 15 分钟是令人不满意的,而等待时间导致一些来电者在电话被接听之前就挂断了。
  2. 的确,当时现场的情况使消防员无法进入建筑物进行救援。然而,FSCC 的及时建议很可能会影响居民的决定,是留在原地还是撤离。
  3. 因此,我们非常需要和欢迎消防处在取证听证会中公布的紧急电话处理系统的改进措施。消

防处已将可用线路增加至 68 条,并预期在第四代调派系统于明年推出后,可进一步增加至 100 条。如果要避免火灾当天的情况再次发生,这些改进将需要与适当的人员配备和激增能 力相结合。 832

832 政府改善措施表第 A12(ii)条 833 [A2/45] 834 [B3/2709]

(ii) 向前线人员传递信息

647. 在核对援助请求并将其转交给现场人员的方式方面也有改进的余地。

835 [T12/39:22-44:8] 836 Cf. [T12/48:2-15] 837 政府公告§825-826 838 例如,FSA-066 与 2025 年 11 月 26 日 15 点 53 分消防处接到的 999 电话有关,但在 16 点 23 分才被消防处记录; FSA-184 与警方在 21:26 接到的 999 报警电话有关,但消防处在 22:11 才接到现场人员的报警电话。火灾当天的 CMS 界面。这种费力而简陋的传递生命攸关信息的方式存在人为失误的风险,导致多次重复的援助请求,并占用了

瑞琳女士的查询,而消防处则于约 58 分钟后的 19 时 39 分才首次记录有关她的协助要求。在三起案件中,金融稳定委员会的协助请求是在首次向中央行政小组提出查询后一天多才提出的。840 841

843

(三)回调机制

前线工作人员本可以投入救援工作的宝贵时间。政府在其结案陈词中坦率地承认,这是“信息传递机制的弱点”,迫切期待改进。[946] [947] 839 [t12 /17:1- 9,58:7 -16] 840 FSA-314, FSA-318, FSA-344 841 [T5/5:20-24]; [T12/74:35-75:9] 842 [T12/54:36-55:5] 843 [T19/35:28-36:12]

最多只有 18 条电话线,可以随时使用。844 656.2. 消防处的运作程序规定,在等候救援的人 士获救或被带到安全地点之前,消防处须每隔 15 至 20 分钟与他们联络。由于消防处面临大量的援助请求,这一目标没有达到。事实上,一些被困的居民在他们的请求被记录下来几个小时后才接到电话。845 656.3. 在消防处接获的 373 宗援助申请中,只有约一半(188 宗) 申请获退回。至于其余的个案,消防处则没有任何联络资料,不论是举报人或任何可能被困在屋内的人士。消防处日后必须考虑如何有系统地收集这些资料,以最大限度地发挥其回拨的效用。 846 656.5. 给被困居民的建议各不相同。虽然消防处建议大多数居民避开烟雾,并用湿毛巾封住门缝, 但并不是所有居民都被问及周围的烟雾情况——尽管根据消防处的政策,居民应该被建议检查走廊和楼梯是否无烟,如果没有,就试图逃生。消防处亦不妨考虑向致电者询问他们是否“安全”的一般性问题,如果困在燃烧的建筑物内的人无法直接回答“是”或“否”,是否可取。 847 656.6. 消防处有一些被困人士的联络资料,但就现有纪录而言,消防处并没有尝试透过回叫机制联络这些人士。848

844 [T12/55:15-29] 845 例如,就 FSA-209 而言,消防处于 2025 年 11 月 27 日 01:36 首次记录了协助请求,但直到 17:08 才在回拨机制下拨打了电话。 846 [B3/2708] 847 例如:CB052。 848 CB371

  1. 7. 信息也以随意的方式从回调机制传回前线。根据民政事务总监黄志明表示,由于资料安全问题,支援中心只有一名职员可以将资料输入系统。另外,支援中心的工作人员也会亲自向支援中心提供资料,支援中心位于同一幢大楼内,比支援中心高四层。849这必然影响

E8. 替代消防策略

(i)消防无人机

图 5-11:无人机拍摄的宏泰阁在 2025 年 11 月 27 日 00:25 左右的静止图像 851

659. 火灾当天使用的无人机并没有用于实际灭火。

849 [T12/56:26-33] 850 邓永华 3 号WS§13 [WS6/1864] 851 [B17/6398]

消防处的证据是,消防无人机技术仍处于研究和发展阶段,并没有已知的消防部门在实际事故中使用无人机灭火的案例。消防无人机的有效性受到其承载能力的固有限制。消防处使用的水管重量超过商用无人机的起重能力。852

根据消防处与领先的无人机制造商大疆的会议记录,大疆当时的旗舰工业型号 FC 100 的最大 起重能力约为 85 公斤,仅由中国内地消防救援队测试过 40 毫米软管。853 662。此外,为了携带更大的载荷而建造的无人机反过来会产生危险的下降气流,这可能会加剧火势的蔓延。 854

简而言之,证据表明,在目前的技术发展状态下,消防无人机不可能在解决宏福苑火灾中发挥任何实质性作用。消防处首席财务官黄志明证实,消防处正在试验各种其他形式的消防技术(例如消防机器人),以使其能力现代化。855

我们希望科技的进步,在日后的行动中,能加强公众安全和前线人员的工作效率。

(2)直升机

852 [T12/58:18-33] 853 [B2/2610] 854 [T12/59:1-11] 855 [T12/67:10-30] 856 [B2/2607] 857 黄世禄阳光§10.2 [WS1/73]

图 5-12:由 GFS 858提供的宏福苑火场航拍照片

消防处也从嘉利大厦火灾中吸取了以往的行动经验。在该宗火警调查委员会的最终报告中, 吴法官(当时的法官)指出,消防处动用直升机营救被困在楼顶的四名人士,结果导致冲下的水产生烟雾,松散的物体掉落地面,以及噪音干扰消防处的地面行动。859

668. 因此,有证据表明,在火灾当天,空中水轰炸不是一种可行的灭火策略。

(iii) 内地的人力支援

以及 20 套外骨骼设备,用于灭火工作。860 858 [B2/2608] 859 [B2/2613-2614] 860 黄世禄 Sunny WS§11 [WS1/74-79]

消防处进一步解释说,在任何时候,在香港执勤的约 1,700 名人员中,约有 980 名人员被派往 现场。换句话说,消防处本身仍然有足够的人力在必要时调派到现场。 861

相反,能够在现场有效部署的人员数量受到宏福苑的物理尺寸和每个楼宇的内部区域的限制。楼梯和走廊又黑又窄(有些只有一米宽),消防队员在其中铺设了多根水管。烟雾、极端高 温和不断从台阶上喷涌而下的水使情况变得更糟。862

消防处亦指出,香港与中国内地在设备标准、操作程序和消防系统方面存在显著差异。如果进行联合行动,这将增加所有相关人员的风险,并可能导致灾难性后果。正如 DCFO Sunny Wong 解释的那样:863 672.1. 香港和中国内地的消防员使用不同的术语和通讯协议,包括不同的遇险信号和紧急疏散信号。在紧急情况下,消防员有可能无法识别同行发出的遇险或紧急信号,这可能会造成致命的后 果。 672.2. 香港和中国内地的消防员使用不同品牌的呼吸器,没有交叉兼容的应急送风机构。在消防员紧急情况下,其他消防员将无法执行基本的紧急空气共享程序,从而危及消防员的安全。 672.3. 香港和内地的消防装置及街道消防栓的安装标准不同:本地供水口采用符合英国标准的瞬时接头,而内地的供水口则采用符合国标标准的 Storz 接头。因此,如果没有专门的适配器, 内地人员和消防车将无法从香港的消防栓系统中取水。 672.4. 最后,内地的消防队员并没有接受香港消防队员使用的手提泵的操作训练(由于 FH/HR 系统无法运作,在宏福苑的较高楼层使用)。由不熟悉的控制和不同的压力设置引起的操作错误是危险的,可能导致泵故障和供水中断。

因此,到目前为止,跨境演习仅限于应对地震和洪水等自然灾害,而内地和香港的设备和协议之间的兼容性问题较少。尽管如此,消防处解释说,从长远来看,他们希望有跨境合作协议,以防此类大规模火灾再次发生。864

861 [T12/65:12-17] 862 [T12/60:2-11]; [T19/8:33-9:2]

F. 结论

864 [T12/66:3-12] 865 政府结案§781

第 6 章承建商及工程相关私人一方的责任

A. 概述

B. PC&E 及鸿毅的整体失当

B1. PC&E

在开始时,考虑到PC&E 和鸿毅在项目中的核心角色,从分析它们的一般职责和失败开始是合适的。

委员会熟悉管理BMR 工程的法律框架。有关BMR 工程的规管架构,以及参与工程的持份者的法定及规管责任,载于政府结案文件的第 F 部分。这些问题在政府证人的证言中得到全面处理。这些意见书不打算重复这些事项,除非某项具体规定与下文的分析有直接关系。

PC&E 是注册承建商 (RC)的总承建商,获批价值港币 3.36 亿元的工程合约。该署负责设计、进行及监督翻新工程,并有责任确保工程符合所有有关法例及规例(例如《建筑物条例》 (第 123 章)及其附属规例所订明的法例及规例),以及纠正发现的违规情况。866

此外,PC&E 也有合同义务遵守其在工程合同下的所有义务。在与 PC&E 签订工程合约时,宏福苑的居民承诺向 PC&E 支付 3.36 亿港元的巨额款项,他们完全有权期望 PC&E 履行其合同承诺。除其他义务外,PC&E 在合同上被要求遵守所有相关法律法规,加强了在一般法律下遵守这些法律法规的责任(第 11 条)。工程合同项下 PC&E 的合同义务已在第 2 章中说明。 867

PC&E 作为对整个项目负有全面责任的一方,应该在工程的每个层面上保持适当的监督,以确保其监管和合同义务都得到履行。证据表明,PC&E 远远没有履行这些职责。它的失败和欺骗行为贯穿于本章的每一节。 B2. 鸿毅

关于 MBIS 下的订明修葺, 注册检验人员(RI)负责对订明修葺进行适当的监督,确保维修材料没有缺陷并符合所有相关法律法规,并确保建筑物是安全的或已被赋予安全。注册会计师监督注册会计师的职责主要源自《建筑物条例》(第 123 章)第 30D 条。 868

如第 2 章所述,监理员是姓名出现在建筑事务监督根据第 3 条备存的监理员登记册上的自然人。因此,RI 不是鸿毅。

然而,对于鸿毅来说,说法定责任落在注册检验人员(RI)个人身上并不是答案。鸿毅受业主委托提供注册检验人员(RI)的服务,并负责在其组织内提供符合法定职责的注册检验人员 (RI)。

866 彭玉龙,Michael WS§7(c) [WS1/708] 867 [F1/26] 868 [10]吴玉青,陈志强,陈志强,等。[WS1/785-786]

年 6 月中旬开始。870

691. 工程展开时,鸿毅的前任董事沈奎宗先生已于两年前去世。871

根据《建筑物(检验及维修)规例》(第 123P 章)第 27 条,如建筑事务监督不愿或不能行事, 他必须在其停止行事之日起计 7 天内,以书面通知建筑事务监督。

沈葵中先生已去世,鸿毅有责任通知 ICU 有关事实。然而,鸿毅没有向 ICU 报告沈先生的死亡。 ICU 在两年多后才收到一份投诉,才发现沈先生的死讯。872

在 2024 年 10 月 10 日,鸿毅迟交了一份 MBI1 表格,声称委任吴耀威先生为宏福苑的国际注册会计师,而873只是在 ICU 多次追求者之后才被委任。874

通过允许维修工程于 2024 年 7 月开始(并在一个月前进行初步工程),而没有 RI 监督工程,鸿毅在工程开始时就放弃了其职责。

本章讨论了大量证据,证明鸿毅未能在与消防安全有关的许多问题上监督 PC&E。鸿毅让居民自生自灭。

除了消防安全问题,居民们也经常担心鸿毅在工程的其他方面与 PC&E 站在一边:698.1. Tai Chi Man 先生描述了居民如何对拟议的太阳能电池板提出问题,他们认为太阳能电池板是非强制性的增加,将家庭成本推到了无法忍受的水平。他们怀疑 PC&E 是成本上升的幕后推手。

869 [F1/32] 870 [h1-3/6135] 696。在 2024 年 10 月 10 日之后,鸿毅负责确保其董事吴耀威先生履行其作为注册检验人员(RI) 的法定职责。然而,有证据显示,吴立胜只是在橡皮图章文件上以 RI 名义出借,实际上并没有亲自进行任何检查。这是鸿毅在对 PC&E 工作的许多方面提供独立监督方面普遍失败的症状。吴先生的职责将在下文阐述。 871 [I1-4/8776-8778]; [O2-831] 872 [T22/26:1-12] 873 [I1-2/1839-1841] 874 [T22/26:13-32]

875 698.2. 叶家奎先生作证说,在整个过程中,鸿毅在选择材料方面站在了 PC&E 的一边。当有人提议用替代瓷砖替换马赛克瓷砖时,居民怀疑这是一个错误的前提,即该小区原有的马赛克瓷砖已经“停产”,鸿毅提出了一个比较,显示新瓷砖明显优于马赛克瓷砖。876 698.3. 更 换瓷砖材料的建议在 2024 年 10 月 5 日的临时股东大会上提交给业主投票。鸿毅声明的立场是,除非无法采购原始材料,否则工程应按其原始合同条款进行。 然而,鸿毅在会议上告诉业主的内容却指向了另一个方向。它解释说,从马赛克瓷砖的转换将花费更多的PC&E 的数字,但PC&E 以书面形式同意吸收差额,以便合同价格保持不变。PC&E 提议的瓷砖更换将是无成本、安全、合法的。居民们仍然投票反对这一改变。877 698.4. 李国雄先生对鸿毅允许 PC&E 违反各种书面合同条款而不发出任何专业谴责表示失望。他就 PC&E 未能遵守工程合约提出多项投诉。878无被鸿毅占用。

B3. 吴 yeuk Wilson 代表注册检验人员(RI)

  1. 吴耀信先生于 2024 年 10 月 10 日获委任为宏福苑的董事总经理。因此,根据《建筑物条例》

第 30D(4)条,他有个人责任监督订明修葺。 879

700. 因此,他对监督修葺工程负有个人法定责任。他是监管框架的核心人物。

702. 吴耀威先生在履行其法定职责时究竟做了些什么,令人严重质疑。

875 [T13/17:25-32, 35-36, 18:18-24] 876 [T5/10:4-12] 877 [g1-2/1521-1522] 703。考虑吴先生是否在宏福苑担任总干事,必须考虑到有证据表明他是全职雇员(他曾受雇于 太古地产[989]),并同时担任超过 50 个项目的总干事。因此,他不可能适当地履行他的法定职责。 878 [T13/54:10-25] 879 [I1-2/1840-1841] 880 [E1-4/8281] 881 这些信息可以在[A2/170, 171, 172, 173]找到。 这些信息中,吴立胜首先表示,他希望提供他参与宏福苑火灾的“事实说明”。他为没有向雇主申报自己在宏福苑的角色和报酬而道歉。(a)他承认 MBI1 表格将他列为 RI,但“怀疑签名的合法性”,说他不知道何时或如何执行。(b)他承认他与鸿毅有联系:在原来的注册检验人员(RI)去世后,鸿毅的一名主任找到他,以自由身份担任注册检验人员(RI)。他的月薪为 1.5 万港元,外加奖金,因为他“在我的签名和责任下担任注册检验人员(RI)长”。他总 共收到了 19 万港元。 882

(c)他说,他的参与“主要限于签署规定的表格和检查报告”,而不是进行任何实际的 MBIS 检查或监督。 704.3. 由于吴耀信先生是鸿毅的唯一一名国际注册会计师,也是自 2024 年 10 月以来唯一一名以宏福苑注册的国际注册会计师,因此这一承认令人深感不安。事实是没有一个合格的注册检验人员(RI)监督过这些工程。 704.4. 吴立胜缴获的移动设备发出的其他 WhatsApp 信息表明,宏福苑并不是他唯一的“假”RI 角色。在这些信息中,吴立胜试图在 2025 年 11 月谈判一项新的自由职业者安排。拟议的交易包括向吴先生支付 15 万港元,让他签署摆在他面前的任何文件,并在屋宇署检查期间“假装”。当吴先生还出 18 万港元时,中间人问他是否愿意签署过期的文件,因为这样会使吴先生的报价更有吸引力。吴立胜表示同意。883

  1. 委员会可能注意到吴耀威信先生声称他在法定表格上的签名可能是伪造的。不请委员会作出任何伪造的发现,而可以简单地指出,他的一些签名可能是由其他人签署的。
  2. 然而,吴立胜在上面看到的 WhatsApp 消息中对其雇主的承认清楚地表明,他同意在宏福苑被任命为 RI。即使他没有亲自在一份或多份有他签署的法定表格上签署,他也会授权他人代表他签署,以收取费用。
  3. 吴立胜知道自己参与了宏福苑,这一事实得到了吴立胜与鸿毅的 Wong Hap Yin Jason 之间的

WhatsApp 交流的支持。在这些留言中,黄鹤贤就一个狭窄的问题征询了吴若信的意见:与

882 [A2/170] 883 [A2/171]

空调通风柜有关的额外工程。除了那次交流之外,没有证据表明吴先生对宏福苑维修工程提供了任何实质性的投入。重要的是,最后的信息是发给吴立胜的付款记录,这加强了他只是被付钱借给他的名字和签名的推断。这些同时期的记录直接反驳了吴立胜所说的他不知道自己在项目中所扮演的角色的说法。 884

  1. 没有其他证据显示吴耀信先生曾以国际注册会计师身分在宏福苑计划中进行任何实际工作。没人在网站上见过他。ICU 从未亲自见过吴立胜,也没有收到他的电子邮件。试图联系他, 比如给他发邮件安排关键的现场巡视,但都没有得到回复。2024 年 10 月 23 日,联检组试

图安排 2024 年 10 月 28 日的视察。回复的是鸿毅的黄合贤杰森先生,他告诉 ICU“我们的 RI 吴先生不在”。885 886

709. 徐文辉先生始终如一地作证说,他不认识吴耀威先生,也从未见过他。887

B4. 监管机构和业主的欺骗

  1. 证据表明,PC&E 和鸿毅在许多方面偷工减料。这些直接导致了火灾和重大伤亡。在其他失败中:PC&E 采购了非阻燃棚网,为了方便工人而创建了楼梯通道口,允许可燃垃圾积聚在棚架上
  2. 更糟糕的是,PC&E 和鸿毅欺骗了监管者和所有者。PC&E 生产了怀疑伪造的防火证书,并就另一批棚网将相同的防火证书回收给 ICU 和 LD。在收到 ICU 打算在检查中测试棚网的提前通知后,PC&E 紧急订购了 115 张符合要求的棚网,以达到合规要求。PC&E 向 ICU 保证,发泡胶板只会在打凿工作期间临时使用,而实际上它们在窗户上粘贴了一年多。
  3. PC&E 和鸿毅的严重失败和欺骗行为将在本章和第七章中详细讨论。

884 [A2/172]和轻型平屋顶,在窗户上安装了已知易燃的发泡胶板,未能遏制现场工人持续吸烟。鸿毅一次也没有介入这些事情。[997] 885 [I1-4/8752-8753] 886 [T22/29:24-30:2] 887 [T14/52:34-36, 73:2-8]

证据还显示,许多注册承建商和建筑专业人士没有进行任何实质性工作,而是利用其注册身 份签署法定表格,以换取费用。如下所述,鸿毅错误地告诉 ICU,在沈葵中先生去世后,吴若信先生立即接任注册检验人员(RI)长。这不仅是不真实的,实际上吴立胜根本没有工作, 888只是在他面前的法定表格上盖章。

同样,中华发展的工作纯粹是向消防处提交停工通知,志富建筑和动机设计承认,他们的工作只是签署楼梯工程的 MW 文件,而这些工程实际上是由财富顶峰进行的。

PC&E、鸿毅和其他注册人员的这种持续欺骗行为向每一个监管机构隐瞒了他们的违规行为, 应受到委员会最强烈的谴责。 B5. 未能实施工程的分阶段进行

取证听证会的大部分证据都集中在使用各种临时建筑材料和保护措施的适当性,临时通道开口的创建和 FAS 的关闭。PC&E 和鸿毅在这些问题上负有主要责任。PC&E 和鸿毅在这些不同问题上的失败和欺骗行为将在本章的 C 节中讨论。

在我们转向这些主题之前,PC&E 和鸿毅的总体失败可归因于这两家公司在指导和监督工作方面的总体责任。

第一个问题是是否应该在所有八个楼宇内同时架设棚架和施工。这个问题很重要,因为棚网 和发泡胶板同时用棚架围住了所有八个楼宇,导致宏福苑的火势迅速蔓延。718.1.第 2 章论述了维修工程分滚动阶段进行的证据,889在实践中意味着,虽然棚架是分三个连续阶段搭建的,但三个阶段的实质性工程重叠,并同时进行了近一年,直到火灾发生的那一天。该工程在相当长的一段时间内同时在所有八个楼宇上进行(用棚架围起来)。718.2.在徐文辉先生 于 2024 年 9 月 6 日出任法团主席后不久,新法团要求盈科分阶段进行工程,即第二期工程

888 除了回答 Wong Hap Yin Jason 先生的 WhatsApp 问题[A2/172]。 889 [H1-3/6126]

须在第一期工程完成后展开,而第三期工程则须在第二期工程完成后展开。特别是,新的 IO 告诉PC&E,居民担心同时用棚架和棚网包围所有八个楼宇会产生消防安全风险。890 891

  1. 3. PC&E 并没有遵从新条例的要求,而是以各种成本和劳工问题为借口,拒绝了该要求。这个借口完全没有道理。PC&E 有责任提供足够的劳动力进行工程(第 4.3 条),并按工程合约规定的上限或固定合约价格港币 3.36 亿元(除有限例外情况外)完成工程。在任何情况下, 这两种担忧都不足以抵消重大的火灾安全风险。 892 893
  2. 4. 此外,PC&E 断言,旧 IO 已经批准了以重叠方式进行各阶段的计划。这种说法,即使是正确的,也是站不住脚的,因为 IO 目前对工程合同项下的工程时间表有最终决定权。在任何情况下,事实前提都没有建立:新的 IO 没有根据记录验证 PC&E 的索赔,894和会议纪要记录的只不过是批准安装棚架的滚动顺序 895 896
  3. 鸿毅和 RI 没有履行其监督职责。没有证据显示他们曾指示 PC&E 按照工程合约的规定遵从新法团的要求。鸿毅也没有解决居民对消防安全的担忧,允许 PC&E 的行为在不促进居民利益的情况下通过。897
  4. 委员会并没有被邀请对旧法团作出调查结果,只是因为盈科及电力公司声称已批准在所有八个楼宇以重叠方式进行工程的计划。没有记录表明旧的 IO 被要求考虑——更不用说批准了

——所有八个楼宇同时被可燃棚架、棚网和发泡胶板包围的消防安全影响。在这些问题上, PC&E 和鸿毅有责任向 IO(无论是旧的还是新的)提供建议,但他们没有这样做。

890 [T14/21:15-24] 891 [T14/21:1-7] 892 [t14 /21:8- 10,30 -35;22:12-15] 893 [F1/27] 894 [T14/22:2-8] 895 对第 12 条管理委员会§19(2)[WS3/1660]条款的答复。[1007]它们不能证明旧 IO 决定所有实质性工作都应该同时在所有八个区块上进行。 896 根据工程合约的附录,翻新工程须按实际情况由法团决定,分阶段进行,第一期为 1 座,第二期为 3 座,第三 期为 4 座[F1/41]。 897 [T14/22:12-18]

B6. 未能监测和控制吸烟

  1. PC&E 和鸿毅的另一个主要失败是未能控制现场工人吸烟。上文第 4 章所述的专家证据表明, 在这种情况下,点燃的烟头很可能是引起火灾的原因。吸烟问题很重要,因为它是火灾最可能的原因,也是居民不断投诉的主题。
  2. 第 4 章 C1 节总结了工人在棚架上吸烟的证据。这是居民们不断抱怨的问题。PC&E 和鸿毅知道这些投诉(其中许多都有照片和视频支持),尤其是因为这些投诉是通过管理委员会在他们的 WhatsApp 群中转发给他们的。棚架内和周围的工人吸烟很普遍,PC&E 和鸿毅知道这一点。 898
  3. 有证据表明PC&E 指定了特定的吸烟区。证据还显示,当局有一项政策,对在棚架内或周围吸烟的工人进行处罚,第一次违规者将被警告并罚款 1,000 港元,第二次违规者将被终止雇佣

关系。第一次违例的罚款其后于 2025 年 3 月或前后提高至港币 2,000 元。899 900

B7. 没有进行消防安全简报和安排消防值班

898 [f4/1041, 1269, 1285] 899 [A2/65/224] 900 [A2/64/221] 901 [F4/1041, 1269, 1285] 902 [T14/49:17-50:25] 903 [T14/48:33-51:4]

这个问题很重要,因为有证据表明宏昌阁较低楼层的工人在大约 14:42 发现了火灾。IFITF 认 为,如果这些工人立即拨打紧急电话,消防处至少可以在 14 时 51 分收到最初的 999 电话之前几分钟收到通知。即使是额外的几分钟,对于消防处在火势发展的较早阶段控制火势, 从而限制随后火势的迅速蔓延,也可能是至关重要的。904 905

委员会听取了各种建筑工人的证词。他们作证说,他们收到的安全简报没有涉及与消防安全有关的问题906,简报只持续了几分钟,他们无法回忆细节。907

从宏昌阁 5 楼出入口的闭路电视画面可以看到,908建筑工人在 14:42 - 14:45 左右发现了火灾。然而,他们花了宝贵的时间讨论火灾的原因(一个工人问是谁把东西点燃的),并试图扑灭大火(徒劳)。如果他们立即通知消防处,这额外的五分钟左右可能对控制火势至关重要。 909

与此相关的是,没有证据表明PC&E 指派或维护任何火灾监视来探测火灾危险或在发生火灾时发出警报,尽管将八个已占用的楼宇包裹在可燃材料中会产生明显的风险。结果是当火灾发生时,现场的人毫无准备。最初向消防处报案的人是一名路人,因此消防处得到通知的时间较晚,延误了灭火行动的展开。 B8. 未能清除棚架上积聚的可燃物

PC&E 和鸿毅的另一个失败方面是建筑材料,碎片和垃圾在棚架内和周围的积累。732.1.根据工程合同第 13 条,PC&E 有明确义务保持工地清洁,并从工地清除所有碎片和材料,并将其存放在指定地点;并明确禁止堆积碎片。910 732.2. 证据表明,PC&E 未能充分清理可燃垃圾, 鸿毅未能对其进行监督。例如,根据居住在王昌 305 单元(即据信起火的平屋顶上方几层)

904 IFITF 最终报告§§5.1.3-5.1.8 [ER1/40-41];[T25/25:12-26] 730。公平地说,他们是面临突发紧急情况的劳动者。尽管如此,PC&E 和鸿毅的职责是在安全主任 Wong Siu Tai Arthur 先生(他是 PC&E 聘请的,但由 Excel Target International Limited 雇用)的协助下,培训工人并确保在发生火灾时采取适当的规程。 905 [A2/7] 906 [T4/45:8-15; 52:1-9] 907 [T13/25:8-21] 908 [A2/7] 909 [T1/8:31-34] 910 [F1/45-46]

的一名居民的证据,平屋顶上堆积了大量的碎片,她每天都听到碎片(如混凝土和其他建筑材料)被倾倒到平屋顶上。911 732.3. 这与李永文博士的观察结果一致,她发现平屋顶上堆积了很多碎片,包括装瓦片的纸箱、发泡胶板、塑料瓶、用过的一次性餐具和一个烟头。除了平屋顶外,李永文博士亦观察到在棚架的不同层面上有许多碎片,包括在接风扇附近的纸板箱。912 913

  1. 这些只是PC&E 和鸿毅未能正确监督和监督整个项目的一些例子。本章的其余部分将考虑与消防安全高度相关的工程方面,这些方面在取证听证会中进行了广泛的探讨。

C. 临时建筑材料及防护措施

正如第 4 章所解释的那样,使用大量没有阻燃质量的临时建筑材料对火灾的蔓延起了重要作用。

导致这种危险状态的各方各自的责任和失败将在下文加以说明。特别关注的是 PC&E 和鸿毅, 它们的代表显然意识到所实施措施的危险性,但仍然指示或允许使用这些措施。 C1. 棚网和塑料布

作为工程的总承建商和顾问,PC&E 和鸿毅对确保棚架工程以及用于棚架的相关材料的安全进行负有主要责任。他们非常清楚棚网必须是阻燃的要求,并且也必须知道同样的要求也适用于塑料布: 736.1. 在 2024 年 5 月 30 日的工作会议上,PC&E 表示棚网将具有阻燃的质量。914 736.2. 在随后的 2024 年 6 月 17 日的工作会议上,鸿毅提醒 PC&E 严格遵守屋宇署的实践笔记 APP-70 的要求,并提交棚网()的阻燃证书。915 736.3. 明确引用APP-70 很重要。该练习备卷规定了“屏幕、风扇、接球平台或类似的保护措施”,如聚氯乙烯和塑料布。它建议这种

911 [T4/4:1-12] 912 [T25/36:36-37:6] 913 [T25/34:29-33; 35:1, 23-26] 914 [H1-3/6134-6135] 915 [H1-3/6131]

薄板应具有阻燃性。有 APP-70 明确提请他们注意,PC&E 和鸿毅必须已经意识到,不仅棚网, 而且塑料布和任何类似的保护材料必须是阻燃质量。 916 736.4. 置邦和置邦的代表出席了这两次会议,并且也意识到棚网和塑料布阻燃性的必要性。

棚架分包商盈利丰在其 2024 年 5 月 29 日发布的报价第 3 项中明确表示将安装阻燃棚网()。根据 PC&E 与盈利丰之间的棚架分包合同,还声明棚网必须遵守所有相关法律法规。陈耀辉先生的证据是,他知道该合同包括要求棚网具有阻燃质量。917 918

738. 在此背景下,分析将分为 2025 年中期台风前和台风后两个部分。

就台风前而言:739.1. 如第 4 章所述,ICU 于 2024 年 10 月 28 日在宏福苑的一个楼宇的屋顶 和地面检查了棚网。进行的快速测试表明,棚网的一部分被打火机点燃了 15 秒,随后着火 并继续燃烧 10 秒,直到有人吹灭火焰以扑灭它。PC&E 和鸿毅的代表都出席了会议。919 739.2. 从这个快速测试中可以得出两点。首先,根据相关阻燃证书,棚网的续燃时间()应为零秒。快速测试的结果与920相差很大 739.3. 接下来发生的事情更加令人震惊。PC&E 和鸿毅没有对快速测试结果进行跟进,以确保棚网是阻燃,而是对居民隐瞒了测试失败的结果。PC&E、IO 和 ISS 制作的快速测试视频中没有显示 10 秒后焰时间的部分,而 ICU 制作的视频中有。921 739.4. 推断是PC&E 或鸿毅在将视频发送到 IO 和 ISS 之前删除了部分视频(显示失败的快速测试的部分)。无论如何,没有证据显示他们曾向法团披露失败的结果。

转到台风后,在连续的台风破坏棚网后,PC&E 决定购买非阻燃棚网作为替代。第二章详细叙述了这些事件。证据显示,PC&E 和鸿毅故意决定这样做,以牺牲居民的安全为代价,以节省成本。740.1.根据工程合同第 4 条,PC&E 有责任不时修理棚架和棚网,包括如果棚架和

916 [J1-1/688] 917 陈耀辉 WS§6 [WS2/1432] 918 [Q1/11]证书表面所写的内容。然而,没有证据表明 PC&E 或鸿毅有任何后续行动。 919 顾绍平 WS§48 [WS1/640-642];[i - 1 / 4/8988](视频名称为“1_20241028_RF”) 920 [D1/1601] 921 [I1-4/8988]

棚网被台风损坏,并且这种修理的费用已经包含在合同价格中,PC&E 无权向 IO 寻求进一步的报销。922 740.2. Lam Kee(替换网的供应商)的证据是,出售给盈利丰的替换网中没有一个是阻燃(除了 2025 年 10 月 27 日订购的一批以达到要求)。此声明由盈利丰的陈耀辉先生接受。他解释说,他订购非阻燃棚网是由 PC&E 的何高登先生指示的,并断言何高登对他说:“如果我让你订购,那就订购吧,没有必要说那么多,如果你订购了阻燃棚网,你就不会得到报销。”923 740.3. 委员会并无陈耀辉先生与何高敦先生的谈话的同期记录。然而,何鸿燊在其 2026 年 7 月 2 日的证人陈述中并没有对陈先生的说法提出异议。924

  1. 4. 根据陈耀辉先生的说法,他曾打电话给 PC&E 的侯华健先生,说明他与何猷君的交流,侯华健先生指示他遵照戈登的指示行事。陈先生因此安排订购非阻燃网。 925
  2. 5. 由此可以推断,PC&E 指令盈利丰使用非阻燃网是为了削减成本而深思熟虑的决定。阻燃网的价格大约是非阻燃网的两倍。926
  3. 6. 在 2025 年 10 月 27 日,鸿毅的杨先生收到鉴证组的通知,表示顾德华先生打算于翌日下午到宏福苑进行视察,以检查棚网的防火性能。然后,这被转发给了 Mr 927

“(不公开)明天下午预 ICU 到地盘预要烧棚网检查定边啲好)”

“(不透露)明天下午——预计 ICU 会到达现场;预计棚网将进行烧损测试;提前检查一下哪些是可以的。” 740.7. 陈耀辉先生的证据是,在同一天,PC&E 紧急指示他订购一批 115 台阻燃棚网。他被指示更 换棚架底部的棚网,因为预计劳工处即将进行检查(陈先生显然不知道检查将由 ICU 进行)。 928

922 [F1/53-54] 923 [1039] Chan Yiu Fai WS§14 [WS2/1437] PC&E 的 Sam Tam,他预先警告他的同事即将到来的检查:[1039] 924 何高敦 2nd WS§§32-33 [WS24/2634] 925 陈耀辉 WS§14 [WS2/1437] 926 [S1/1, 12] 927 [A2/96]

  1. 8. 这些事情证明了 PC&E 完全知道当时安装的棚网不会通过检查。否则就不需要“检查哪些是ok 的”,更不需要紧急指示盈利丰下 115 台阻燃的小订单。相比之下,其他更换棚网的订单总共为 1 400 套,价格是棚网价格的一半。929 930
  2. 9. 证据显示 PC&E 通过订购一部分阻燃棚网并将其放置在预计 ICU 将会放置的战略位置来欺骗

ICU,这是一种愤世嫉俗的企图

  1. 10. PC&E 继续故意隐瞒非阻燃网络的使用。2025 年 11 月 20 日,劳工处在检查时,要求提供最新一批更换网的阻燃标准证书,因为他们知道“有些网在台风期间损坏,后来更换了”。931
  2. 11. 当天晚些时候,PC&E 向 LD 发送了一份棚网第一批(而不是替换网)获得的证书副本。隐含的表示是旧批次和新的替换批次是相同的。这种说法显然是错误的。 932
  3. 盈利丰不能通过责备PC&E: 741.1 来逃避责任。陈耀辉先生承认他知悉棚网必须符合阻燃品质的规定。作为一名经验丰富的棚架承建商,他一定知道这不仅是合同的要求,也是法律和监管的要求。他本可以(也应该)拒绝何鸿燊先生和侯华健先生购买非阻燃质量的替换网的指示。741.2.根据 PC&E 与盈利丰之间的分包合同第 25 条,分包合同价格包括以下工作范围: (i)搭建棚架;(ii)在外墙工程完成后,对棚架进行补修;(iii)拆除棚网。盈利丰的陈耀辉先生表示,该次一次性维修已于 2025 年 5 月完成,除了最后拆除棚架外,盈利丰的合约责任

亦已完成。933 934

  1. 3. 因此,根据陈先生自己的证据,盈利丰没有合同义务同意 PC&E 购买替换网的要求。陈振聪的解释是,他同意了盈科的要求,因为盈科威胁不给他钱。换句话说,陈先生最终将自己的经济利益置于居民的安全之上。 935

928 陈耀辉 WS§17 [WS2/1439-1440] 929 [S1/6-9] 930 [S1/12] 931 林秀清 WS 第 83 条[WS1/379] 932 [D1/1685-1689] 933 陈耀辉 WS§11 [WS2/1435] 934 [Q1/10] 鸿毅不知道棚网的状态,因为与原始批次相比,它们的颜色和透明度不同。 935 陈耀辉 WS§14 [WS2/1437]

  1. 4. 此外,火灾后,陈先生收到妻子钟凤平语音信息说:936“我哋后期送啲网过去,阿添叫你解画,夹好口供解话打俾佢,因为我哋啲唔系阻燃网嚟㗎”“一件事——关于网我们后期:交货啊蒂姆已经要求你给一个帐户。在你给他回电话之前,我们先把我们的故事讲清楚如何解释,因为我们的网不是阻燃。”
  2. 5. 这不仅暴露了盈利丰知道使用非阻燃棚网是非法的,而且还表明可能试图误导调查火灾的当局。
  3. 鸿毅也不能否认责任。742.1.鸿毅参与了欺骗性的合规阶段,于 2025 年 10 月 28 日误导了 ICU。这很难想象
  4. 2. 如果鸿毅不知道这些网的阻燃性,这种可能性很小,那么这显然等于玩完了对 PC&E 使用的 材料进行认证的监督职责。工程合同规定,所有用于修复工程的材料必须先经鸿毅(“鸿毅”) 批准(“鸿毅”)。937
  5. 尽管关于塑料布和帆布的采购和使用的证据较少,但 PC&E 和鸿毅都知道阻燃性的要求。李永文医生在火灾后进行的测试显示,这些产品不符合上述标准。由此推断,就塑料布而言, PC&E 和鸿毅未能符合这些标准。
  6. 由于这些原因,请委员会发现PC&E 和盈利丰主要负责采购和使用非阻燃棚网来替换被两次台风损坏的棚网。PC&E 对非阻燃塑料布的使用也负有最终责任。最后,鸿毅对其未能监督PC&E 和材料的选择负有责任。
  7. 为了完整起见,没有证据表明 IO(无论是旧 IO 还是新 IO)知道上述不正当行为。证据表明, IO 本身被误导了。例如,在 2025 年 11 月 8 日举行的装修工程进度会议上,鸿毅报告说, ICU 检查了棚网,并确认它们符合阻燃标准

。938

936 [A2/112] 937 工程合约第 4 部第 4.4-4.6 (COT/03-04)条[F1/27-28] 938 [F1/321]

941 C2. 发泡胶板

  1. 工程合同要求PC&E 对建筑物实施适当的保护措施,例如覆盖和保护建筑物。工程中使用的所有材料必须符合工程合同的要求和/或经鸿毅批准。942 943
  2. 此外,根据工程合同,鸿毅有权,除其他外,指导PC&E 对工程,包括对工程所用材料的质量。

944

可能使用的替代品:945 750.1. 在会议上,鸿毅对发泡胶板的可燃性及其产生大量烟雾的倾向表示了特别关注。PC&E 回应说,“董事会”不如发泡胶板防护,并坚持使用后者(承建商表示甲板对窗户保护能力欠佳,相反发泡胶效果较佳)。750.2.鸿毅随后回答说,每种材料都有其优点和缺点,但仍然认为发泡胶板具有更大的风险 939 [T22/51:26-29, 52:11-20] 940 [T25/43:13-22] 941 [D1/1599] 942 [F1/46] 943 [F1/57],如果 PC&E 继续使用发泡胶板,它应该考虑这些风险并实施适当的措施 944 [F1/32, 34] 945 [H1-3/6131]

好坏处,但始终认为发泡胶板存在较大风险,如承建商坚持使用,必须自行考虑风险及制定应变方案).

  1. 尽管鸿毅要求PC&E 考虑使用发泡胶板和实施适当措施的风险,但没有证据表明这样做了。相反,PC&E 向鸿毅发送了一封日期为 2024 年 7 月 17 日的信,寻求其批准使用发泡胶板作为临时保护覆盖物。那封信由鸿毅会签,上面写着“审核通过”。这封信没有提出任何措施来减轻使用可燃发泡胶板的火灾风险。除了 2024 年 6 月 17 日讨论的内容外,没有证据表明鸿

毅严格审查了该提案。946 947

正如孔令辉所说,这是几周内突然而彻底的立场逆转。948在发泡胶板上的头寸逆转没有明显或合理的原因。

然后工程继续进行。如第 4 章所述,发泡胶板是在 8 月底订购的。其中至少有一部分不是阻 燃。发泡胶板于 2024 年 9 月中旬开始放置在第一期的住户窗户上,即王畅、王盛和宏志阁 (F、G、H 座)。

与此同时,对发泡胶板可燃性的担忧继续在居民中回响,在 2024 年 9 月 12 日举行的会议上提出了一些投诉并进行了讨论。在会议上:754.1. 管理委员会通知 PC&E,他们收到了居民燃烧发泡胶板的视频,并询问了材料的可燃性。949 754.2. 作为回应,PC&E 解释说,发泡胶板不会着火,如果他们进来接触香烟的火焰,但情况会有所不同, 如果存在连续裸火焰(宏业解释现时选用的封窗物料是不会因烟头接触而燃烧起来,但如用明火持续燃烧则另作别论)。950

这不是一个令人满意的解释。即使假设发泡胶板不会因为一个点燃的烟头而着火,这也不是引发火灾的唯一可能原因。在任何情况下,单个点燃的烟头都可能点燃积聚在棚架内和周围

946 [H1-3/6131] 947 [M1/240] 948 [T15/22:30-32] 949 [H1-3/6019] 950 [H1-3/6019]

的可燃碎片和建筑材料(包括纸箱和马赛克瓷砖的底纸),并引起更大的火灾,从而点燃发泡胶板。

  1. 鉴于居民的持续关注,法团要求使用阻燃性更好的替代材料。然而,戈登先生何解释 2024 年 9 月 13 日 WhatsApp 组“宏福苑大维修集团”,涉及管理委员会, PC&E, 鸿毅 ISS,替代材料,如塑料瓦楞板只能用于第二阶段的工作,现有的材料已经到达现场,安装(如要更换物料,要待第 2 期

才可用,因第 1 期保护工程已进行中及物料已到地盘)。951

  1. 2. 其次,何鸿燊给出的理由是,没有更换不同的护窗材料,实际上是为了节省成本。如果承建商获得的建筑材料不适合用途,而且可能是非法的,则承建商有责任自费纠正这种情况。利润再次以牺牲居民的安全和生命为代价。
  2. 3. 第三,鸿毅知道(并在一开始就建议952) 发泡胶板是易燃的——但没有干预。更糟糕的是, 鸿毅继续支持PC&E 使用易燃的发泡胶板。
  3. 4. 于 2024 年 9 月 13 日晚上 10 时 31 分,黄合贤先生传阅鸿毅对此事的书面意见。他断言,没有法律规定外墙装修工程中使用的防护材料(除了棚网)必须为阻燃;现有楼宇的外部修葺工程一般不会构成严重的火警风险;发泡胶板比棚网更不可能传播火灾。953 954
  4. 5. 这是一个不合逻辑的结论。正如委员会将指出的那样,法律立场的陈述是不正确的,并没有反映屋宇署的立场。但是,即使对使用发泡胶板的合法性存在怀疑,在格伦费尔大厦之后, 在建筑物正面使用易燃覆层的危险是众所周知的。鸿毅必须知道,使用聚苯乙烯等易燃材料来覆盖窗户会产生

951 [F4/1035] 952 [H1-3/6131]不可接受的火灾风险,无论是否存在针对该特定类型材料的特定法规。 953 [O2/1403] 954 [O2/1154];请注意,同样的讯息并没有出现在 Mr Tsui Moon Come Tony [F4/1039]提供的 WhatsApp 群组讯息副本中;书面意见[02 /1403]。

根据 Mr Kong b 张 Fat, PC&E 给出的使用发泡胶板的另一个原因是发泡胶板批次已经被之前的IO 批准。然而,孔令辉并不能说明该批准是否确实是由老 IO 作出的,因为他在任职期间并没有亲自参与该决定。另一方面,徐文辉先生误以为他已获发一份批准书副本,并已将副本提交委员会。自那以后,Tsui 先生一直没有认出他所指的文件。 955 956 957

旧 IO 批准了发泡胶板的观点在 WhatsApp 的记录中得到了一些支持。鸿毅,准备简报会议的居民(解说会)2024 年 9 月下旬解释说,旧的 IO 已经证实发泡胶板的顺序,如果替代材料被使用, 这将需要额外费用(早前经上届管委会确认收宏业已订料,现时转换可能涉及额外费用,需由宏业提供其他物料选择,如需要额外费用,可能需要业户投票)。958

当由于 PC&E 违反工程合同959,未能提供适当的窗户遮盖板材料而导致需要更换时,PC&E 没有理由向业主收取更换费用。此外,鸿毅有权力指示 PC&E 删除不合格材料并替换相同的材料 支持PC&E 站不住脚的立场,并试图劝阻居民继续要求更换材料。

下一个重大事件是 2024 年 10 月初何鸿燊和徐文辉在 WhatsApp 上的私人对话。960 761.1. 记录 显示,何鸿燊于 2024 年十月二日下午十二时三十分向徐先生询问,鉴于居民对发泡胶板有 重大关注,第二期及第三期是否应使用瓦楞塑胶板,而非发泡胶板。徐先生在中午 12 点 31 分回复,询问是否可以继续使用发泡胶板,尽管不那么易燃。761.2.徐先生解释说,早在 2024 年 9 月,PC&E 就已经拒绝改用波纹塑料布,因为它们更坚硬,在现场很难切割。然而, 徐先生承认,PC&E 的解释很难令人信服,因为 PC&E 可以事先按照宏福苑的标准尺寸切割木板。无论如何,何鸿燊本人在他的 WhatsApp 消息中建议改用瓦楞塑料布,这表明他认为 他提到的关于材料刚性的实际困难是可以解决的。961 761.3. 公平地说,他曾积极寻找阻燃窗

955 [t15/22:25-29] [qh][1073]不调用合同条款,鸿毅 956 [T15/23:19] 957 [T14/36:16-19] 958 [F4/1072] 959 [F1/57] 960 [A2/119] 961 [T14/31:22-28]

套,并建议使用具有阻燃品质的发泡胶板。这些信息显示,他向何鸿何发送了一个供应商视频的链接,以证明具有阻燃属性的发泡胶板是可商用的。奥崔 962 他指给何先生看。

  1. 4. 何猷龙回答说,他会按照建议进行,如果他能订到这种阻燃性更强的发泡胶板,他会在第二期和第三期使用,但不会在第一期取代旧的发泡胶板。
  2. 徐锦江是个门外汉。他有权依靠鸿毅和PC&E 的专业知识。当两者的反应都表明他们不关心消防安全时,他研究了(尽他作为一个外行人所能)更阻燃的替代材料。最终的结果是,他要求 PC&E 收购阻燃发泡胶板。
  3. 证据表明,PC&E 确实继续收购具有一些阻燃品质的发泡胶板,但没有完全遵循 Tsui 先生的指示:763.1. 正如李永文博士所观察到的,现场有两种类型的发泡胶板,一种是菱形图案,另一种是方形图案中的方形,后者(使用更广泛)更易燃,会燃烧
  4. 2. 有证据显示,菱形图案的发泡胶板是在何先生与徐先生于 2024 年 10 月初交换后,为第二期及三期订购的阻燃。
  5. 3. 然而,李博士观察到,具有正方形中正方形模式的发泡胶板被更广泛地发现,这表明 PC&E 甚至在第二和第三阶段使用了第一批非阻燃发泡胶板。如果第二阶段和第三阶段全面使用阻燃发泡胶板,那么可以预期现场发现的大多数发泡胶板都具有菱形图案。
  6. 4. 事实上,证据表明,分包商并没有特别注意在现场收集的哪一批发泡胶板用于安装在哪些楼宇。963
  7. 5. 由此推断,PC&E 未能履行其对徐先生的承诺,在整个第二期和第三期工程中使用新材料。原因很明显:阻燃发泡胶板的新订单价格是湖北宇博一期订购的非阻燃发泡胶板的单价的两倍以上:见第二章 D5 节。

962 [T14/37:12-14] 963 [T13/34:29-31]

(就工程的其他方面所做的那样)。然而,当时唯一考虑的替代窗户遮盖板材料是一种瓦楞塑料布。瓦楞纸板的阻燃比发泡胶板更不明显。根据李永文博士的实验室测试,她观察到所有在现场发现的瓦楞塑料布持续燃烧,2mm 和 5mm 瓦楞板进一步产生燃烧液滴,没有自行熄灭的迹象,而 9mm 瓦楞板则不太容易着火。964

  1. 4. 当有人向徐锦江提出这个建议时,他认为一个可行的解决办法是分阶段进行工程,即先完成一边(例如北、南、西、东)的工程,然后再进行另一边的工程。尽管如此,PC&E 从未向管理委员会提出这一选项。969

964 [ER4/2481];[ER2-1/470-471]没有进行凿除工程,以免其他楼层的工程碎片砸破窗户。[1085] 965 [T13/29:14-30] 966 [T13/36:23-37:3] 967 [T13/29:31-32] 968 [F4/1028] 969 [T14/29:29-35]

在打凿工作期间临时使用(一次三层),打凿完成后将立即移除。970 767.2. 这种保证显然是错误的:发泡胶板被安装在整个楼宇,并在火灾发生当天保持了一年多的时间。但保证也说明了 PC&E 意识到广泛和长期使用发泡胶板来覆盖窗户的风险。一个没有什么可隐瞒的承建商 971

  1. 由于上述原因,请委员会发现PC&E 和鸿毅对发泡胶板的不当使用负有主要责任。

D. 楼梯通道口(生口)

在楼梯上设置非法通道也是一个重要问题。到火灾发生时,除了通道开口外,所有楼梯窗户都转换为防火窗。如果用这些防火窗保护楼梯免受正面火灾的伤害,那么这些楼梯可以在更长的时间内使用逃生途径。许多人的生命本可以得到挽救。因此,通道开口的设置是火灾当天造成重大伤亡的主要原因:见第 4 章。

证据显示,第一个入口是在每个楼宇的第十五层创建的。然后,PC&E 指示分包商在每五层楼梯上设置入口。例如:770.1. Ng 先生 Pui 关颖珊(sub-subcontractor 块D, E 和 F)说 PC&E 告诉他打开一个工人检修孔在后面楼梯每五层(叫我每隔五层楼就喺后楼梯开一个生口位),而当他问这是否允许“告诉”(我有问过佢,佢嗌我做)。972 770.2. 吴培俊承认,开放通道是一项方便工人的措施,虽然这是惯例,但在技术上并无必要。他没有考虑打破后楼梯对逃生途径的影响 ——他说“这些事情我不明白”。973

鸿毅了解并批准了 PC&E 创建入口的建议。771.1.第一份提案的日期是 2024 年 8 月 1 日。PC&E 建议在每个楼宇的 15 层创建一个楼梯开口。鸿毅在同一天对提交进行了批复。没有证据表明鸿毅对所涉及的明显风险有任何考虑,或者实际上根本没有考虑到访问打开的必要性。如上文所述,负责拆卸工程的分判商承认,他们不需要使用入口开口来进行工作。974 771.2.

970 顾小平 3 WS§§61-63 [WS14/2150-2151] 971 顾兆平 3rd WS§63 [WS14/2151] 972 [T13/31:16-19, 32:3] 973 [T13/31:26-32:25]风险。发生在一个自称外行的人身上的风险没有被专业人士解决。 [1095] 974 [T13/33:1-9, 41:19-27]

2024 年 8 月 22 日,PC&E 写信给鸿毅,要求其批准在每个楼宇的第五层、第十层、二十层和二十五层进一步创建工人通道口。鸿毅也在同一天进行了批复。鸿毅给予批准的速度是缺乏严格审查的一个指标。 975 976

  1. 通道开口的火灾风险在早期就引起了 PC&E 和鸿毅的注意。PC&E 与前管理委员会之间的

WhatsApp 群消息记录显示,在 2024 年 8 月 7 日,唐国权先生询问窗口位置应该使用阻燃 还是防火材料()。没有关于火灾的任何进一步讨论的记录 977

第 2 章列出。这些工程被分包给财富顶峰。根据志富建筑的资料,富富建筑随后受聘为王孙向宏志阁 (C 至 H 座)提交 MW 设计方案,而动机设计则受聘于黎家荣先生,负责余下的大厦(A 座及B 座)。

975 [O2/944] 976 [O2/1081] 977 [O2/840] 978 [T14/48:2-7] 979 参见[1-2/2484、2486、2490、3902、3904、2908]

980 [WS21/2378] 981 [WS21/2367] 982 驰富建设致委员会的信§§1,2,8 (b) [WS21/2367];Motive Design 给委员会§§2(d)、2(e)、7、8(c)、8(d)、8(e)的信 [WS21/2375-2378],用临时通道开口替换原来的窗户并没有使情况恶化。[1103] 983 [I1-2/2490, 3177, 3908, 4668]; [I1-3/5480, 6268, 7207, 8008] 984 [I1-2/4678, 4682] 985 [T25/23:20-34]

和注册状态,向上诉委员会表示,楼梯工程是安全进行的,并符合有关的法律和规例,但事实并非如此。

E. 停用火警警报系统及消防栓/喉辘系统

986 IFITF 最终报告§5.4.7 [ER1/71-72] 987 IFITF 最终报告§10.4 [ER1/215] 988 梁平凯 WS§36 [WS2/1515],因为他被告知物业的物业管理将处理此事,并且在任何情况下都不会允许中华发展进入其处所。然而,在他的第二次证人陈述中,他说他认为 PC&E 是一个 RFSIC,并且认为 FSD 可以接受中华发展

宏福苑,以便直接了解现有的 FH / HR 系统、建议在那里进行的相关翻新工程、关闭 FH / HR 系统进行此类翻新工程的必要性……”;989 787.2. “(Leung Ping Kay Ivan 先生)没有参加宏福苑亲自关闭 FH / HR 系统,(他理解)中华发展的人员没有这样做”;990和 787.3。“(梁平凯先生)在 FH / HR 系统关闭期间,没有对宏福苑进行任何检查。”[他的]理解是,中华发展的人员在此期间没有这样做”。991

  1. 中华发展的代表 Leung Ping Kay Ivan 先生向委员会提供证据,并试图为中华发展的行为辩护。他的证据不能令人满意。
  2. 首先,他的证据在他的两个证人证词之间发生了根本性的变化,这损害了他的可信度。最初, 在他的第一份证人陈述中,他说他没有亲自参加网站的关闭
  3. 其次,他的解释令人难以置信。790.1.对于第一种解释,鉴于其作为 RFSIC 的职责是对金融服务机构的关闭进行适当的监督和处理,那么显而易见的反应(如果中华发展被告知不能进入 宏福苑)将是拒绝提交 sdn。790.2.至于第二种解释,不单是私隐及私隐服务事实上并非“特别服务提供者”,而且所谓的做法在任何情况下都不会为消防处所接受。根据消防处第1/2021 号通函,FSI 业主将聘请992作为 FSI,检查 FSI 是否需要关闭以进行维护,修改或维修, “因此,RFSIC 是通知消防处的最合适人选”。790.3.通函第(A)段进一步订明:“当指定流动物料供应中心负责维修/检查/修改/修理下列流动物料供应中心,而该等流动物料供应中心预 计须在夜间或连续进行超过 24 小时的工作时,须在确定有缺陷后的 24 小时内尽快通知消防处”(重点加)。

提交 sdn 而不实际监督关闭,只要另一个 RFSIC(即 PC&E)进行监督。这是一个完全不同的解释,他的第一反应中没有,这表明这是最近捏造的。[1111] [1112] 989 梁平凯 WS§30 [WS2/1514] 990 梁平凯 WS§35 [WS2/1515] 991 梁平凯 WS§48 [WS2/1517] 992 [B2/1302]

  1. 4. 此外,通函第(G)段亦规定:“另一方面,如不再聘用流动服务中心人员从事有关工程,应在原定完成日期前以书面通知消防处,并应立即通知流动服务中心的业主关闭流动服务中心的详情。”
  2. 5. 最后,通函第(I)段规定:“[合资格人士]/[授权签署人]应审慎审查是否需要延长关闭消防装置, 并在书面通知中亲自确认是否需要/恢复消防装置。”
  3. 6. 上述第 1/2021 号通函的段落明确指出,提交 sdn 的 RFSIC 必须与亲自关闭相关金融机构并严格审查关闭必要性的 RFSIC 相同。
  4. 7. 至于为何负责金融服务机构(梁振英的帐目是 PC&E)工作的金融服务机构不能自行提交SDN,而需要依靠另一个金融服务机构代其提交 SDN,当局并没有提供可信的解释。
  5. 鉴于中华发展作为提交 SDN 的 RFSIC 的角色,它在火灾报警和 FH/HR 系统的功能方面负有重大责任。然而,它并不是唯一负责任的一方。以下各节将进一步考虑其他各方的责任。

E1. 对 FS 坦克进行改造的必要性

792. 从逻辑上讲,这些工程对 FS 坦克的必要性是首先要考虑的问题。

出现的一个关键问题是 FS Tanks 是否泄漏,因此需要 FS Tank 工作。这方面的证据如下。

首先,根据鸿毅的检验报告,他们对各区块 FS 罐的结论如下:A 座(报告日期 2019 年 4 月 3 日):观察到屋顶水箱的各种盖子不符合相关法律法规(缸),FS 水箱脏污()。建议一般将与 fsi 相关的事项(包括上料泵、FH/HR 系统和控制面板)作为“非核心”项目的一部分进行工作。993 794.2. B 座(报告日期为 2019 年 4 月 3 日):观察到屋顶水箱的各种盖子不符合相关法律法规(http://www.chinesechinese.com/org/缸)。具体来说,FS 水箱的入口有混凝土脱落,内壁有锈迹,信号线的金属盒腐烂发霉(缸缸,)。建议一般将与 fsi 相关的事项(包括上料泵、FH/HR 系统和控制面板)作为“非核心”项目的一部分进行工作。994 794.3. C 座

993 [E1-2/1581] 994 [E1-2/2040]

(报告日期为 2019 年 4 月 3 日):观察到屋顶水箱的各种盖子不符合相关法律法规 (http://www.chinesechinac.org/缸)。有 995 996

  1. 4. D 座(报告日期为 2019 年 7 月 30 日):观察到屋顶水箱的各种盖子不符合相关法律法规

(http://www.chinesechinady.org/缸)。具体而言,就 FS 水箱而言,汞容器严重生锈。在建议中,既没有就与金融设施有关的事项进行的工作提出一般性建议,也没有就金融设施储罐的具体工作提出建议。997 998 794.5. E 块(2019 年 7 月 30 日的报告):意见和建议与 d 块的意见和建议在实质上相同。 [11221123]

  1. 6. 第 F 部分(2019 年 7 月 30 日的报告):观察结果和建议与第 d 部分的基本相同 [11241125]
  1. 8. H 块(2019 年 7 月 30 日的报告):观察结果和建议与 d 块的基本相同[11281129]

FS 水箱工程的 PC&E 分包商之一红日水泥工人吴日照先生指出,FS 水箱的条件非常差,存 995 [E1-2/1579]没有对 FS Tank 进行具体观察。[1118]既没有对与燃料储罐有关的事项进行工程的一般性建议(与 a 和 B 座的检查报告相反),也没有对燃料储罐进行具体工程的建议。[1119] 996 [E1-2/2038] 997 [e1-2/2987] 794.7. G 块(2019 年 7 月 30 日的报告):观察结果和建议与 d 块的基本相同。[11261127] 998 [E1-2/2984] 999 [H1-1/31-34] 1000 [C1-2/1149] 1001 [H1-3/6693-6710] 1002 [H1-3/6702]

在泄漏和结构问题,储罐中收集了大量沉积物()。1003 796.2. 然而,吴先生的观察是在大约 2025 年中期进行的,当时翻新工程正在顺利进行。当他观察到 FS 水箱漏水时,是在放水以方便工程进行,在这种情况下,很难区分放水是作为工程过程的一部分,还是结构漏水。796.3.根据中华发展为所有八个区块颁发的 FS251 证书,记录 FS 水箱有“水” 796.4. 为了完整起见,置邦的郑子英女士不确定 FS 水箱是否有漏水的问题。她只收到 31 楼住户的投诉,说屋顶漏水,31 楼住户也受影响,但她无法确认漏水的原因。1004

  1. 总的来说,证据表明 FS 坦克没有明显的结构缺陷。宏仁阁(A 座)中的 FS Tank 最多被描述为

“肮脏”。宏道阁(B 座)中 FS 坦克的状态相对而言比其他区块更差,但即使如此,从鸿毅 的检查报告中也不清楚对Block B FS 坦克(被描述为“非核心”项目)的维修是否真的有必要。对于其余楼宇的 FS 坦克,证据更清楚:这些坦克没有明显的结构缺陷。

  1. 即使 FS 坦克存在结构缺陷,问题是究竟需要什么样的修理。798.1.根据工程合约,所有位于八座大厦天台的水缸(包括 FS 水缸)须按下列顺序进行维修:(i)凿除内墙;(ii)修补底层水泥结构及防水层;(iii)测试新的防水层;(四)新内墙用白色瓷砖铺贴。1005
  2. 2. 根据宏泰消防的钟洁文博士的说法,FS 水箱一般不需要铺砖。储存在 FS 水箱中的水是用于消防的。FS 水箱不需要为清洁而铺上瓷砖,也不需要达到饮用标准。钟博士不知道为什么要安排 FS 储油罐铺上瓷砖。然而,他补充了他的证据,说他的公司不进行 FS 坦克的维修。

1006 1007

  1. 3. 根据钟博士所提供的证据,我们怀疑工程合约所规定的 FS 水箱的内墙及防水层的维修是否真的有必要(也许除了宏道阁(B 座))。
  2. 4. 此外,正如第 2 章所述,PC&E 并没有提供任何临时水箱,而是选择使用翻新后的 FS 水箱作为临时淡水水箱,同时进行翻新。这违反了消防安全规定,因为它导致 FH/HR 长时间关闭,

1003 [C1-2/1191] 1004 [T8/66:13-20, 23-24; 68:31-33] 1005 [F1/101]临时水箱的替代方案是违反法律重新使用 FS 水箱,临时水箱显然是必要的。 1006 [T6/15:6-9] 1007 钟洁文 WS§19 [WS2/1535];[T6/13:36;14:1-4;15:11-15]

这是不可接受的。如果不是将 FS Tanks 改造为淡水的计划,至少这些 block 的 FS Tanks 在火灾当天可能已经恢复运行。 1008 798.5. PC&E 决定将翻新后的 FS 水缸改作淡水水缸,亦违反了工程合约。合约规定,如有需要, PC&E 须提供一个临时水缸,供有关水缸翻新期间使用。1009如果

虽然将改造后的 FS 水箱作为临时淡水储罐的计划已向新的 IO 和 ISS 披露并知晓,但1010双方都不应对这方面的工作负责。799.1.就新法团而言,徐先生解释说,新法团并没有考虑按照工程合约的规定提供临时水缸。这是可以理解的,因为新的 IO 必须依靠 PC&E 和鸿毅的专业判断来最好地开展工作。799.2.至于 ISS,罗善英女士回忆说,在不同的工作进度会议(至少有居民和PC&E 参加)上,有讨论临时水箱的安排,但她不记得讨论的细节。1011 1012 E2. FAS 系统完全没有必要关闭

正如第 2 章所解释的,FS 泵房的主电源开关是如何关闭的证据是清楚的。总而言之:800.1. PC&E 要求 ISS 协助排空 FS 水箱。随后,ISS 发出多项工作指令,指示罗国瑞先生(ISS 的电工)和李盛富先生(ISS 的木匠)协助 PC&E。为配合工作命令及协助个人电脑及电子工程, 罗先生关掉了所有八座楼宇的总电源开关,从而关闭了 FH/HR 及 FAS 系统。 800.2. 通过关闭主电源开关来关闭 FH/HR 和 FAS 系统是不必要的。为了排出 FS 水箱,FAS 系统不需要关闭。虽然在排空 FS 水箱的过程中必须关闭 FS 增压泵,但这只需要关闭 FS 泵房内主面板上的泵隔离开关。

鉴于罗国水先生(ISS 雇员)承认曾关闭总电源开关,ISS 对火警警报器失灵负有重大责任。特别是 801.1。罗国瑞先生表示,当他收到各项工作订单时,发现其中包括与金融服务局油罐有关的工作,这些油罐属于金融服务局。由于他知道只有持牌人士才可操作金融仪器,他便向罗善英女士(金融仪器办公室文员)询问他是否仍可执行工作指令。据他说,乐女士的回

1008 [T10/76:1-14] 1009 [F1/79] 1010 [H1-3/6034, 6077, 6113] 1011 [T7/4:3-5] 1012 [T14/45:9-14]

应是,既然他是一名电工,而这是盈科的要求,他应该陪同盈科的工作人员并协助。因此, 罗先生遵从工作命令,尽管他没有所需的牌照,仍继续协助排空消防系统的水缸。801.2.据她说,PC&E 问她 ISS 的工作人员是否可以协助 FS 水箱的排水。她不知道 ISS 的工作人员需要提供哪些步骤或什么样的帮助,所以她问罗先生和李先生是否愿意提供帮助,他们很乐意这样做。1013 1014 1015

801.3. 委员会应在听取罗先生及骆女士的证词后,决定信谁。

  1. 4. 然而,无论人们接受哪一种说法,置邦显然都无法逃避责任。罗先生及骆女士均受雇于 ISS, ISS 须为他们的作为及不作为代负法律责任。ISS 还负有培训和指导其员工不操作或与任何金融机构打交道的主要责任。

802. PC&E, 鸿毅和中华发展也要承担责任。

1013 报价中的[1151] [T6/81:3-19]可能是,双方预先确定需要长时间关闭的事实也被 PC&E 与中华发展之间的WhatsApp 通信所证实。在他们的消息中,中华发展在 14 天的截止日期即将到期时自动发送 sdn,而不质疑延长的必要性。在某些情况下,中华发展一次发送了三个月关闭期间所需的多个文档。PC&E 必须知道,中华发展只是一个橡皮图章,不会严格评估继续关闭的必要性。[1154] [1155] 1014 罗国水 WS§19 [WS2/1233];[T7/47:25-26;48:1-8] 1015 [T6/82:29-34] 1016 [R1/1] 1017 Leung 先生表示,报价(b)项的措辞只是为了避免不必要的复杂性,以他自己的记录和一般理解为目的,但并未表示或暗示中华发展将自动提交一年的 sdn: Leung Ping Kay 2nd WS§§48-52 [WS7/1884]。

  1. 3. 梁炳基先生解释说,他在提交 SDNs 前曾与 PC&E 的“张先生”(即 Chong Po Chung 先生)交谈。然而,他随后承认他只是偶尔联系“张先生”(即不是就每个 SDN)。在任何情况下,与总承建商进行电话询问都不可能履行 RFSIC 进行检查的义务。 1018
  2. 对于鸿毅,作为监管PC&E 的实体,未能阻止与中华发展明显不负责任的安排的发生。再一次, 鸿毅没有对 PC&E 进行任何监督。
  3. 最后,消防处共接获 93 份有关在同一期间内,消防系统因意外关闭而导致火警装置失灵的个案报告:

座 名称 SDN 总数 停用起始时间 距火灾时长 A 宏仁阁[1157] 6 2025 年 9 月 4 日 83 天 座 名称 SDN 总数 停用起始时间 距火灾时长 B 宏道阁[1158] 10 2025 年 7 月 11 日 139 天 C 宏新阁[1159] 11 2025 年 7 月 4 日 146 天 D 宏建阁[1160] 14 2025 年 5 月 16 日 195 天 E 宏泰阁[1161] 17 2025 年 4 月 7 日 234 天 F 宏昌阁[1162] 6 2025 年 9 月 4 日 83 天 G 宏盛阁[1163] 12 2025 年 6 月 16 日 164 天 H 宏志阁[1164] 17 2025 年 4 月 7 日 234 天 总: 93 最长的关闭: 最长的关闭: 7 年 4 月 7 日至 234 天 234 天 2025 年 11 月 26 日

  1. 2025 年 10 月 3 日,中华发展通知PC&E, FSD 要求它提交 FS251 证书,随每个 SDN 一起提交。在 WhatsApp 消息中,中华发展敦促 PC&E 尽快恢复 fsi 的操作,因为它无法再拖延 FSD

(搅)。1019 1020

1018 [T9/79:13-25]

在解释这则 WhatsApp 消息时,梁先生表示,在 WhatsApp 长时间关闭后,消防处开始担心。这意味着 PC&E 和中华发展都知道他们长时间的关闭对于 FSD 来说是不可接受的。然而,这种安排一直持续到火灾发生的那天。 1021 E3. 为什么在火灾发生前没有纠正 FAS 关闭?

证据表明,FAS 系统的错误关闭可以而且应该在火灾发生之前被识别和纠正。

正是在这种背景下,置邦聘请的对金融服务机构进行年度检查和整改的金融服务机构宏泰消防的作用是相关的。

在 2025 年 3 月 24 日至 26 日对宏福苑进行年检后,宏泰消防注意到与:810.1 有关的各种缺陷。某些区块的 FH/HR 系统的管道(例如“HR 闸阀 x1 号”)。“有缺陷”为宏仁阁(A 座)) (“管道缺陷”)。1022 810.2. FAS(例如:“警报器 x 1 号”)。宏道阁(B 座))(“报警缺陷”)中注明“有缺陷”。1023 810.3. 防火梯内的照明(例如“应急荧光灯 x 9 号”)宏新阁(C 座)) (“照明缺陷”)中注明了“s 缺陷”。

宏泰消防向 ISS 提供了对宏福苑所有八个楼宇(“管道维修”、“报警器维修”和“照明维修”,统称为“FSI 维修”)进行管道缺陷、报警器缺陷和照明缺陷维修的报价。1024被委托进行 FSI 维修,于 2025 年 10 月和 11 月完成。

水管维修工程由汤兴麟先生、汤兆明先生及蔡锦龙先生于 2025 年 10 月 16 及 17 日进行。

照明维修由宏泰消防的分包商 Leung Man Zong 先生于 2025 年 11 月 17 日至 19 日、22 日、24 日至 26 日进行。 1025

1019 [R1/48] 1020 署理助理处长姜世明证明消防处没有人追赶中华发展以提交 FS251 证书[t10 /70:18- 32,71:8-15]。 1021 [T9/82:11-17] 1022 [H1-3/6702] 1023 [H1-3/6703] 1024 [R1/751-760] 1025 童兴伦 WS§§5-6 [WS2/1542]

警报维修由黄建华先生及李俊贤先生于 2025 年 11 月 19 日及李俊贤先生本人于 2025 年 11 月 21 日进行1026。1027

汤兴伦先生于 2025 年 10 月 16 日首次发现王岩、王涛及宏新阁的 FS 油罐(A 至C 座)是空的。特别是,当他试图测试 A 至 C 楼宇管道维修新修复的部分时,他发现 FH/HR 系统没有水流 出。因此,他开始检查这些楼宇屋顶上的 FS 水箱,发现它们是空的。1028

据汤显明透露,他在二零一五年十月十六日发现位于 A 至 C 座的 FS 水箱是空的,便通知钟洁文博士,钟洁文博士指示汤显明向 ISS 的林文仁先生询问是否已提交 SDN。1029

汤显明的证据是,他随后向 ISS 的林文仁先生询问,并被告知已提交 SDNs 以进行所有八个大楼的 FS 水箱的翻新工程,而 FS 水箱内的所有水已被排干。林先生没有否认这次谈话。汤显明说,他随即把这个讯息转述给钟博士。1030 1031 1032

在这个阶段,宏泰消防已经陷入僵局,无法完成管道维修。维修的最后阶段需要宏泰消防颁发 FS251 证书,这只有在对 FH/HR 系统的新维修部件进行测试并使用 FS 水箱供水后才能完成。

我们转而研究宏泰消防为确保它能够尽快完成修复工作(包括测试)而采取的步骤。

钟博士与 ISS 的郑子英女士于 2025 年 10 月 9 日在 WhatsApp 上的谈话记录显示,消防处已敦促 ISS 尽快完成年检中发现的维修工程。1033

1026 梁文宗 WS§4 [WS2/1550] 1027 李春银 WS§§5-6 [WS2/1538] 1028 通兴论 WS§5 [WS2/1542] 818。第二天,即 2025 年 10 月 17 日,这三个人又前往 D 至 H 座完成这些大楼的水管修理工作。当他们试图测试这些楼宇管道维修新修复的部分时,他们注意到没有水从 FH/HR 系统中流出。鉴于 ISS 前一天告诉 Tong 先生的情况,他们没有去检查那些 block 的 FS Tanks,留下了宏福苑。[1179] 1029 [T9/7:27-33] 1030 [T9/8:1] 1031 童兴纶 WS§5 [WS2/1542];(T9/7:34-35) 1032 [T7/79:3-6] 1033 [H4/6802]

据钟博士说,当他在 2025 年 10 月 16 日获唐先生告知 FS 水箱已空后,他推断 FS 水箱的上水泵已被关闭(否则水会从输送水箱中抽走,并填满 FS 水箱),而 FS 水箱的泵很可能也已关闭(这是惯常做法)。1034

钟博士进一步解释说,他于 2025 年十月十七日下午十二时零六分致电 ISS 的郑子英女士,询问是否已提交 SDN。据他说,郑女士的回答是肯定的,并解释说有工程给 FS 坦克。 钟博士随后要求郑汝骅在油罐工程完成后,向他提供一份 SDN 副本(连同核实恢复 FSI 的完整第三部分)及相关的 FS251 证书。根据郑女士的通话记录,她确实曾于 2025 年 10 月 17 日与钟 医生通话约 1 分 6 秒。然而,程女士记不起那通电话的内容。1035 1036

毫无疑问,在 2025 年 10 月 17 日,钟医生并没有收到郑女士的任何 SDN。1037

郑汝骅于 2025 年十月二十二日向钟博士寄去一份消防处的信件照片,信中要求尽快修复消防处的故障及恢复消防处的服务。钟博士回答说“理解”。1038

2025 年 10 月 28 日,郑女士与钟博士跟进,询问宏泰消防何时可以到宏福苑完成维修。钟博士随即询问是否已将 FS 水箱重新注满水,因为没有上述程序,维修工作便无法完成。郑汝瑛回答说,FS 水箱已重新注满水。在该阶段并没有向钟博士提供 FS 水箱重新充注的证据。 1039

钟医生承认,在 2025 年 10 月 17 日(他与郑女士谈话时)至 2025 年 11 月 17 日(余下的维修工作开始时)期间,他并没有向郑女士索取 SDN 的副本。1040

根据 WhatsApp 的记录,钟博士于 2025 年 11 月 5 日通知郑女士,FSI 维修的剩余部分(即

1034 [T6/16:8-12; 19:3-13] 1035 [T8/34:20-22]照明维修和报警维修将于 2025 年 11 月 14 日左右进行。这些修理分别于 2025 年 11 月 17 日和 19 日开始。[1188] 1036 [T6/19:26-36;20:1-4] 1037 [T6/41:1-35] 1038 [H4/6804] 1039 [H4/6804-6805] 1040 [T6/41:24-35]

于 2025 年 11 月 19 日,黄建华先生及李俊贤先生抵达宏福苑进行警报器维修。为了避免触电, 他们去 FS 泵房关掉了总电源开关。然而,当李春银进入 FS 所有 8 个楼宇的泵房时,他发现总电源开关已经关闭。1041

因此,黄先生和李先生当时都明白 FH/HR 系统和 FAS 系统已被禁用。1042发现后,李先生在WhatsApp 群中向梁文宗(宏泰消防的另一名工作人员)和张女士(宏泰消防的一名职员) 报告,至少有七个楼宇的 FS 水泵被关闭。1043

据钟医生说,b 张女士随后与李先生交谈,然后专门向钟医生转达了这一信息。他指示他的员工继续进行警报修复。然而,他明白宏泰消防将无法测试修复的部件(因此完成修复)。1044 1045

在此期间,黄建华先生亦发现 G 座的升压泵已被拆卸,而至少 F 座、G 座及 h 座的升压泵开关已被关闭。他录下上述情况。钟博士已知悉此事。他作证说,他当时意识到,在宏福苑向FSI 提供的作品并不存在 1046

其后,黄先生作证说,他曾向郑汝桦询问有关情况,而郑汝桦告诉他,他们正在对 FSI 进行工程,所以总电源开关已关闭。据黄志光透露,郑汝桦通知他,盈科已自行找了应急服务中心 关闭系统。黄先生说,他问他们是否提交了 SDN,并要求查看副本。他说程女士当时找不到。 1047

郑女士承认于 2025 年 11 月 19 日曾与黄先生有过谈话,但否认黄先生曾要求查阅该文件的副本。她接受宏泰消防作为遗产的常规 RFSIC,应该被给予 SDN 的权限。然而,她并没有想到要提供它。1048 1049

1041 黄建华 WS§6 [WS2/1546];李春银 WS§5 [WS2/1538] 1042 黄建华 WS§6 [WS2/1546];李春银 WS§5 [WS2/1538]仅限于 FS 坦克,但由于他不确定正在进行什么工作,他指示他的工作人员将他们的发现通知程女士。[1195] 1043 [R1/686-692] 1044 [T6/24:34] 1045 [T6/23:32-36; 24:4-7] 1046 [R1/835-836] 1047 [T5/60:16-30] 1048 [T8/38:2-6] 1049 [T8/37:19-25]

2025 年 11 月 21 日,李春寅先生回到宏福苑进行宏志阁(H 座)的报警维修。那天,他注意 到宏志阁的主电源开关仍然处于关闭状态。修理完毕后,他于下午 3:30 离开。1050

大约在同一时间,即 2025 年 11 月 21 日下午 2 时 20 分,郑女士通过WhatsApp 向钟博士发送: (i) 15 张照片,并附上信息,这些照片显示 FS 水箱已重新装满水,并询问宏泰消防是否可以完成 FSI 维修和

钟医生的证据是,他在 2025 年 11 月 21 日下午 3 时 20 分,亲自致电郑汝骅,要求取得 SDN。 1051但是,同期的记录显示并非如此。郑女士的电话记录显示,在二零 2025 年十一月二十一日下午三时二十分,钟医生只打了一个电话,而且是未接来电。钟博士自己的电话记录显示, 这通电话(也是在下午 3 点 20 分)只持续了 9 秒,更像是未接来电,而不是正常的电话交 谈。1052 1053

在面对这些通话记录时,钟医生声称郑女士在下午 4 时 57 分给他回了一个电话。然而,他自 己的通话记录显示,所谓的通话只持续了 6 秒,比所谓的下午 3:20 的通话时间还要短,因此更不可能发生任何实质性的谈话。1054

因此,委员会谨此拒绝钟博士的证据,即他曾于 2025 年 11 月 21 日致电郑汝桦要求获得特别 提款权。然而,这一发现并不适用于黄先生。他要求在 2025 年 11 月 19 日看到 SDN 的证据是另一种情况。在这种情况下,rssic 显然需要一份SDN 的副本。

在此,需要指出的是,郑女士于 2025 年 11 月 21 日发给钟博士的照片,实际上是在 2025 年 8 月 20 日至 11 月 13 日期间拍摄的 FS 坦克照片。1055

钟博士作证说,当他收到照片时,他意识到照片已经过时,但他并没有要求黄建华先生或李俊贤先生检查 FS 水箱,因为水泵已经关闭,因此 FH/HR 系统在任何情况下都不会运作。1056

1050 李春银 WS§6 [WS2/1538] 1051 从他们的脸上可以明显看出有些照片已经过时了。此外,童兴伦先生于 2025 年 10 月 16 日观察到,至少王岩、王涛和宏新阁的 FS 坦克(A 至 C 座)是空的。 1052 [R2/851] 1053 [H5/6815] 1054 [T9/33:25-34] 1055 [H6/6820-6834]

  1. 2. 宏泰消防于 2025 年 10 月发现 FS 水箱为空后,未能确保看到相关 SDN 的副本,以确保另一间 FS 水箱审核委员会确实在监督 FS 水箱的相关工程,并由该审核委员会评估相关的消防安全风险,并通知消防处。
  2. 3. 关于宏泰消防是否曾经要求获得 SDN 的副本,存在事实争议。尽管情况很严重,但宏泰消防从未认为以书面形式提出 SDN 请求是合适的。
  3. 4. 此外,如果宏泰消防确实请求了 SDN,但没有提供,宏泰消防应该主动向 FSD 报告此事或采取措施恢复 FH/HR 和 FAS 系统。
  4. 5. 宏泰消防发现 FS 泵房的主电源开关在 2025 年 11 月 19 日被关闭。宏泰消防知道 FS Tank 维修不需要关闭主电源开关。这是一个严重的危险信号,应该立即采取积极行动。如果 ISS 没有及时提供支持文件(包括提供 SDN 的副本),宏泰消防应该向消防处报告此事。
  5. 6. 钟博士本人的话最能概括宏泰消防的态度。他说,既然有另一个 RFSIC 负责,他就不应该干涉了()。尽管他感觉到“有些不对劲”,但他还是这么做了。1058 844.7.

1056 [T9/25-26] 1057 [T8/36:16-18] 1058 [T6/46:32-33]

该决定违反了第 1/2021 号通函的规定,该规定规定,如果 RFSIC 发现“可能在发生火灾时使整个建筑物处于危险之中”的情况,则必须向消防处提交书面通知。1059 844.8. 宏泰消防知道FAS 和 FH/HR 系统已关闭。钟博士感觉出了问题。在最高的情况下,宏泰消防所做的只是请求另一个 RFSIC 提交的 SDN 副本。这显然是不够的,尤其是因为(这是无可争议的)ISS 在火灾前从未给过宏泰消防任何 SDN 的副本。如果宏泰消防履行了它的职责,它应该设法暂时重新启动 FAS 系统,直到完全了解情况为止,或者至少应该通知消防处火警警报器显然已经关闭了很长一段时间。如果这两件事都做到了,FAS 就可以在火灾当天投入使用。

  1. 至于置邦,它不应该仅仅依赖于宏泰消防。撇开罗国瑞先生不应该触碰 FS 泵房的总电源开关不谈,ISS 对以下故障负有责任:首先,置邦应该确保,在多个承建商参与的情况下,他们每个人都知道工程的状态。无论宏泰消防是否要求获得 SDN 副本,ISS 都应主动以书面形式告知宏泰消防工作进展情况,并向宏泰消防提供 SDN 和任何其他官方记录,以便其了解立场。这显然是管理处应该做的、负责任的事情。845.2.其次,至少可以说,在 2025 年 11 月

21 日向钟博士发送过时的照片是没有帮助的。向消防处报告的机制并非只是填纸工作,而是确保消防处已真正维修完毕,而消防处的消防安全风险评估小组亦已适当评估。 845.3. 如果 ISS 能够更主动地确保宏泰消防了解 FS 水箱所做工作的范围和状态,这将有助于宏泰消防了解关闭各种 FS 水箱的必要性。

  1. 如果宏泰消防和ISS 履行了他们的职责,FAS 极有可能在火灾当天恢复运作。

F. 置邦(ISS)

847. 本节将考虑ISS 与宏福苑改造工程有关的责任的另外两个方面。

1059 [B2/1303]

29 日就记录吸烟投诉的条目(条目号:5:“有住户投诉有棚工人在起棚时吸烟”)至少到 2025 年 2 月 24 日(条目号 391 年:“投诉有工人在棚内吸烟,要求宏业回复,不要只系劝喻,要有罚则, 否则不满意”),与处理条目通常阅读”已通知宏业”(“通知 PC&E”)或“通知宏业及法团”(“通知PC&E 和 IO”)。1060 849.2. ISS 的警卫被指示要求工人在巡逻时停止吸烟,公共区域的警卫以及 PC&E 在棚架和外墙上张贴了“禁止吸烟”的通知。1061 849.3. 不过,郑子英女士承认,情况并没有改善。她认为,一线员工没有权力,实际上也无法控制 PC&E 建筑工人的行为。1062 849.4. 置邦对吸烟投诉的回应再次反映了一种被动的态度。简单地把抱怨转述给 PC&E 是没有意义的。如果 ISS(以位于宏福苑的物业管理公司(“PMC”)的身份)主动向劳工处报告工人吸烟的普遍情况,它就会使投诉更具合法性,并使劳工处知道这是一个严重的、反复出现的问题。这可能导致劳工处采取执法行动。

  1. 二是准入开放问题。ISS 的证据是,他们知道在宏福苑: 850.1 中使用了访问开口。郑女士说, 她大约在 2024 年 8 月得知 PC&E 已将一些楼梯窗户改为通道开口。她解释说,置邦对警卫的唯一指示是,如果发现没有上锁,就把门锁上,这是出于安全考虑,而不是出于消防安全考虑。1063 850.2. 郑女士亦承认,ISS 并没有特别意识到这些通道开口可能带来的消防安全风险,因为鸿毅已被聘请为顾问,相信鸿毅会就任何此类风险行使其专业判断。1064
  2. 3. ISS 依赖鸿毅的专业判断是可以理解的。然而,置邦仍然应该警惕火灾的风险。根据 ISS 的安全手册,大厦服务员巡逻的目的是预防和发现火灾风险。有人指出,巡逻的楼管人员应特别注意有棚架的地方。1065

1060 [C1-1/749, 759, 766] 1061 [T8/72:10-15] 1062 [T8/25:23-30] 1063 郑子英 WS§§46-47 [WS2/1267-1268] 1064 [T8/26:15-20] 1065 [H1-3/6639-6640]

  1. 4. 此外,根据同一份《保安手册》,巡查楼宇人员应特别注意的事项之一,是检查通往防火梯的防火门是否全部妥善关闭。1066这样做的目的是为了确保消防逃生楼梯仍然是一个封闭的区域,可以适当地为居民提供一个安全的通道,以便在火灾中逃生。通道开口会破坏这个功能,置邦应该对这个问题保持警惕。ISS 可以并且应该至少提出新的 IO, PC&E 和/或鸿毅的问题-如果失败,它应该向ICU 报告问题。

850.5. 然而,置邦对通道开放没有采取任何行动。

1066 [H1-3/6640]

第 7 章政府机关的责任与问责

A. 概述

本章从职权范围第 1 段的角度,分析参与监管北隧工程的各政府机构的责任和问责。

委员会收到的证据表明,宏福苑居民向各政府部门提出了大量投诉。负责监督的机构是否对普通公民认为有火灾风险的危险进行了充分调查,这是一个严重的问题。投诉从一个政府部门转到另一个政府部门,最终没有得到令人满意的解决。

因此,证据证明委员会成员在取证听证会第 17 天提出的关切是合理的,这些关切贯穿于本章所审议的问题:854.1. 这位学识渊博的主席指出,在处理本宗个案中居民的消防安全投诉时, 已陷入灰色地带,而这次火灾则充分暴露了这一灰色地带。1067 854.2. 欧阳健博士指出,消 防处自然是普通市民了解消防安全的第一站,但一般市民并不知道各部门之间的分工。1068 854.3. 陈建波先生问,是否可以建立一个系统,让某个人最终对严重的火灾风险负责(兜人去处理…结果就不了了之). 1069

虽然政府的证人否认在火灾发生前在宏福苑存在有关火灾风险的监管真空的建议,但1070的最终结果是没有政府部门采取有效的所有权,而关于火灾危险的投诉恰恰属于这种真空。

大部分政府部门认为 ICU 对位于宏福苑(即棚网、发泡胶板及工人通道口)的翻新工程所产生的火警风险负有主要责任。然而,ICU 将其监督职能外包给(i)居民的投诉,以及(ii) 注册承建商 (RC)和注册检验人员 (RI)的自我监管。这显然是不够的:居民缺乏识别许多危害的专业知识,而违反规定的 RC 或 RI 也不能指望自己报告。更糟糕的是,当工人通道口的照片在一份小型作品提交中通过 ICU 的手中时,其高级工作人员看着它们并没有注意到什么。

1067 [T17/16:15-19] 1068 [T17/26:12-17] 1069 [T17/27:3-13] 1070 容锦洪的证据[T17/17:3-12];杨仁健,[T19/26:17-25]

同样的主题也出现在有关消防处监管活跃金融机构宏福苑的证据中。消防处依靠注册消防装置承办商 (RFSIC)的自我监管,接受他们的证书,并陈述了在没有充分现场核查的情况下关闭fsi 的原因。因此,消防处直到火灾当天才知道火警警报系统已被禁用。

在本章所考察的其他部门中,同样的模式也很明显。BD 将其对宏福苑的建筑控制职能委托给ICU,从未审计过 ICU 在 MBIS 事务方面的工作。海关接受了表面价值的阻燃证书- -对于替换的棚网,它收到了 16 个月前为原始网颁发的相同证书,而没有注意到这一点(见下文第 E4 (ii)节)。

这也不是承建商和顾问们故意欺骗监管机构的答案。欺诈之所以成功,是因为监管机构自己 的做法使其成为可能:ICU 的检查是预先宣布的,这给了合规阶段时间,而且在多个部门之间,所依赖的文件是由接受审查的各方提供的,并且未经核实就被接受了。在每一个案例中, 监管机构都依赖于被监管方的诚信,而没有对明显的火灾隐患进行调查。如果一个监管体系 被其监管对象的一意孤行击垮,它就不是一个有效的监管体系。

因此请委员会认为,本章所指出的缺点是系统性的和普遍的。正如委员会律师在指示会议和开幕词中所预示的那样,这些材料揭露了一系列不可接受的系统问题,不容忽视。委员会收到的证据证实了这一点。因此,迫切需要进行结构改革。第 8 章的建议是针对这些问题的。

B. 独立审查组(ICU)

B1. 设立重症监护室和建筑控制职责

房屋署署长于 2000 年 11 月成立独立审核小组,就房屋委员会的发展进行客观的第三方审核。政府总部重组后,由二〇二二年七月一日起,独立审查组并入房屋局常任秘书长办公室。 1071

根据屋宇署与房屋委员会于 2022 年 7 月 1 日签订的谅解备忘录第 2.1 至 2.2 条,成立独立审核组是为了确保独立审核房委会项目符合屋宇署的做法。这也是 BD 对 ICU 角色的理解。1072 1073

此外,根据谅解备忘录第 2.4 条,审控小组根据屋宇署署长的授权,对部分或全部出售的居者有其屋计划(居屋)楼宇(例如宏福苑)行使法定楼宇管制。1074

根据谅解备忘录第 3 条,1075存在几种机制,以确保 ICU 的标准与 BD: 864.1 保持一致。屋宇署 借调高级专业人员到上诉法庭履行衔接职能,并听取屋宇署的指引(第 3.1 条)。864.2.检控 组人员在屋宇署辖下各委员会任职(第 3.1 条)。864.3.检控组每六个月向屋宇署提交进度报 告;屋宇署可在有需要时对屋宇署进行审核,以确保标准的一致性(第 3.2 条)。

ICU 向 BD 提交的半年度进度报告(例如,第 41 号报告)1076侧重于政策或总体操作问题,而没有捕获单个项目的细节,包括宏福苑。屋宇署明确表示,虽然这些报告和联络会议不需要讨论每一个个案,但可提出需要屋宇署关注或需要屋宇署提供意见的个案 1077

此外,屋宇署与审裁处定期举行会议,确保审裁处与屋宇署的标准和做法保持同步。

最后,审规组承认,除其他外,它有责任在宏福苑中实施 MBIS,在必要时对改建和增建工程 (“A&A”)和小型工程(“MW”)进行现场监测,并处理根据小型工程监管制度提交的 MW (“MWCS”)。1078

政府证人提供的证据是一致的。在宏福苑: 868.1 的大规模改造中,ICU 负责被动消防安全和建筑材料的监管。屋宇署:根据屋宇署强制验楼署助理署长俞静女士(下称“俞静女士”)的说法,屋宇署已就宏福苑向审控组授权,而监督 RC 和 RI 在每个阶段是否妥善履行其职责是审

1072 [t20 /14:3- 8,30 -34]供讨论。然而,对个别案例的讨论似乎很少。 [1228] 1073 [j1-1/2043, 2045] 1074 [J1-1/2046] 1075 [J1-1/2047] 1076 [I1-4/9175] 1077 刘富国 WS§21 [WS1/613]

控组的责任,而不是屋宇署的责任。1079868.2. 当被问及检控组是否会将有关复检人员或复检人员的纪律事宜转介屋宇署时,她的回答是肯定的,但她补充说,检控组必须完成自己的调查,然后才会将案件转交屋宇署 1080 868.4. 消防处助理处长(消防安全)容金雄(“容金雄”)同意,如果住户发现宏福苑出现在楼梯、1081、发泡胶板覆盖窗户、1082或棚网、1083出现问题,均应向 ICU 报告。他认为消防处与屋宇署/屋宇署之间的被动消防供应责任分工十分明确。1084

  1. 特别地,审控小组在遵守《建筑物(建造)规例》(第 123Q 章)方面担当监督的角色。特别是:869.1. 有否按照第 16 条的规定,采用适当的建造方法及程序进行工程,以及有否采取“适当的预防措施”;1085和 869.2。根据第 3(1)及(2)条,建筑工程所使用的所有材料,其性质及品质是否适合其预期用途或目的,并经足够的认可测试核实。1086

870. 然而,下文会就消防处的责任解释,消防处亦应负责火灾风险

B2. 独立审查组证人的个人角色

(i)鲁道夫·刘

鲁道夫·刘先生于 2022 年 7 月至 2026 年 2 月担任 ICU 的负责人,由 Haroon Hamidah 女士接替。

因此,在宏福苑进行实际翻修工程期间,他一直是 ICU 的负责人。1087

监察组共有 333 名员工,其中 154 名负责法定建筑物管制,包括建筑师、测量师和其他专业人员。1088刘先生最终负责管理和监督这些员工。

1079 [T20/12:32-35] 1080 [T20/12:36-13:6] 1081 [T17/3:19-20] 1082 [T17/3:21-25]由位于宏福苑的 BMR 工程引起的火警,只要该等事宜构成《消防条例》(第 95 章)第 2、7 及 9 条所指的“火警危险”,而消防处同时拥有消减该等火警的权力。 1083 [T17/3:28-33] 1084 [T17/6:8-10] 1085 [B2/661] 1086 [B2/653] 1087 刘富国 WS§1 [WS1/599]

刘先生作为 ICU 院长的职责包括:1089 874.1. 研究、制订及发展有关房委会项目符合规管规定的政策,包括谘询屋宇署的意见;874.2.对所有提交和批准的文件进行审查并制定独立的检查方法;874.3.制订检控组适当的组织架构、人手需求和工作模式;874.4.根据屋宇署署长 的授权,监督居屋屋苑的楼宇管制工作。 (ii) 顾德华

顾德华先生于 2014 年加入 ICU。2018 年加入房屋署,任高级维修测量师。他于 2024 年 1 月 4 日重新加入重症监护室,尽管他自 2018 年 3 月以来一直担任现职。他提交了三份证人陈述。 1090 1091

在宏福苑改造期间至火灾发生之日,库先生带领 ICU 的 MBIS 团队,负责监督宏福苑的强制验楼和BMR 工程。1092

具先生的MBIS 团队由 5 名专业人员和 12 名非专业人员组成。1093

顾先生的其中一位下属是屋宇保养测量师刘嘉雯女士。刘慧卿没有提交证人陈述书,也没有在听证会上提供证据。如下所述,她曾在顾先生的监督下,亲自处理与宏福苑的 BMR 工程有关的各项事宜。 (iii) 容智健

容祖健先生于 2020 年 10 月 14 日加入 ICU。他于 2024 年 9 月 26 日加入 ICU 的小型工程队 (“MW 队”)。容先生为高级屋宇保养测量师。他提交了两份证人陈述。1094

1088 刘富国 WS§16 [WS1/607] 1089 刘富国 WS§1 [WS1/599-600] 1090 [WS1/621, 673]; [WS14/2127] 1091 [T22/1:19-33];顾绍平,王志强,王志强,等。容先生领导设计小组,负责管理和监督与小型工程有关的建议书, 包括审核工作。[1247] 1092 顾兆平 WS§1(a) [WS1/621];(T22/2:14-20) 1093 顾兆平 3 号WS§7 [WS14/2129] 1094 [WS1/654]; [WS14/2116]

1095 (iv) 谢伟霆

B3. ICU 的策略级失败 (i) ICU 未能检讨其本身的做法

1095 容少麟 WS§32 [WS1/666] 1096 [WS3/1682-1688]; [WS16/2199-2202] 1097 [T24/31:18-28]

(ii) 施工期间没有进行现场安全检查

  1. 在火灾发生前,来自 ICU 证人 Andy Ku 先生和 Nick Yung 先生的证据证实了以下几点:在 MBIS 工程和 MW 建设期间,ICU 没有进行任何现场安全检查。888.2.ICU 在竣工前未要求进行任何现场安全检查。它只会在收到投诉后访问一个网站。888.3.ICU 的审查工作主要包括文件审查,抽样文件以检查文件表面上是否完整。
  2. 因此,容伟光同意,虽然大型翻新工程的建筑物周围有棚架和可燃物料,会造成严重的火警 风险,但审控组在工程完成后才进行工地视察,因此无法在翻新工程期间发现建筑安全问题。

1098

就不可能发现承建商在施工期间是否遵守《建筑物(建造)规例》第 16 条的规定,包括是否使用危险的方法或材料。

1098 [T23/12:22-34] 1099 [T23/21:31-22:4] 1100 [T22/24:8-31] 1101 [T24/35:9-12, 36:14-16] ICU 不应该将其监督职能委托给普通居民。894.2.至于扶轮社和扶轮社,如果他们违反法律 (有意或无意),我们有理由认为他们不会向检控组等政府机构举报。894.3.一个例子是塑料布和在宏福苑使用的画布的处理。火灾发生前,ICU 没有对这些材料的阻燃性进行调查。只是在专家提出证据证明它们缺乏阻燃性之后,它们才成为政府关注的焦点。可能的解释很简单:由于没有居民抱怨它们,在投诉驱动的方法下,塑料布和画布的阻燃性未经检查。对ICU 来说,没有投诉意味着没有问题。 1102

  1. 监管组将监管责任有效地移交给普通市民,并依靠承建商和专业人士自律,未能履行其监管责任的一个重要方面。

(iii) 小型工程审核量-最少的审核范围

  1. 在 2025 年,设计小组共收到 27,585 份小型作品。总审计目标为 1275。这意味着大约 95%的人没有接受任何形式的审计。1103
  2. 在被审计的 1 275 份中:897.1.1070 份是审计基本检查(只审查桌面文件-没有实地视察)的对

象。1104 897.2.180 为现场审核检查(仅限竣工后现场检查)。1105 897.3.25 是开工前现场审计检查(“PSAC”)(检查的唯一目的是检查承建商是否在开工时“操之过过早”,法律要求承建商在提交 MW 后等待 7 天才能开工)。1106

  1. 正如下文所述,屋宇署在 2023 年采取了一项进行现场安全检查的政策,而 ICU 直到宏福苑火灾之后才意识到这一点。因此,在工程进行期间,审控组并没有对小型工程进行实地视察。然而,即使采用屋宇署 2023 年的政策,也只有约 0.8%的意见书会被选中进行实地视察。这个百分比是否足够,这是一个严重的问题。

1102 [T24/35:29-36:9] 1103 杨少伦 WS§24 [WS1/663] 899.1. 初步检查(所有提交):仅核实注册检验人员(RI)注册状态及签名。 1104 容少麟 WS§14 [WS1/660] 1105 容少麟 WS§15 [WS1/661] 1106 容少麟 WS§17 [WS1/661]

(iv) MBIS 检查-依赖 RI 而不进行验证

  1. ICU 的 MBIS 小组对检查报告的审查基本上是一种书面作业:1107
  1. 2. 审计检查(固定在每月 16 个投票案件):这 16 个案件中只有三分之一进行现场审计。现场审核只检查条件是否与注册检验人员(RI)的检查报告大体一致。换句话说,现场审计只是根据 MBIS 的订明检验检查建筑物的状况,而不是在实际工程开始后进行现场检查以确保现场安全。1108 1109
  2. 3. 基础检查(未选择审核检查的提交):仅确认报告提交、填写和签名,未验证内容的真实性。

因此,如上文所述,在楼宇维修计划制度下,除非楼宇维修计划小组收到投诉,否则审控组 无须对实际装修工程进行现场视察。政府还指出,MBIS 制度被设计为一个“两点监测机制”, 国际监督组在提交检查报告和完成检查时监测 RI(但不是在两者之间,除非收到投诉)。换句话说,ICU 在进行工作期间必须依靠 RI 来监督 RC。 1110 1111

901. 然而,ICU 与RI 在宏福苑的关系的特点是完全脱离:

  1. 2. 2024 年 10 月 8 日,ICU 写信给鸿毅,强调自 2024 年 6 月以来一直在宏福苑进行维修工作, 没有任何 RI,并继续要求提交表格 MBI1 以更改 RI。情况被认为是严重的,因为独立审查组

(ICU)指示在正式任命独立审查组(ICU)之前不应执行订明修葺工程。1112 1113

  1. 3. 经过多次提醒,鸿毅于 2024 年 10 月 10 日提交了表格 MBI1,要求由吴耀信先生代替注册检验人员(RI)。鸿毅的信声称,在沈先生去世后,宏福苑的维修工程的监督工作已立即移交给吴先生。1114

1107 顾绍平 WS§§29-33 [WS1/632-634] 1108 [T22/15:23-25, 30:19-27] 1109 顾绍平 WS§31 [WS1/633] 901.1. 原注册检验人员(RI)长沈奎锺先生于 2022 年 7 月逝世。ICU 在两年后,即 2024 年 9 月,通过投诉才得知此事-表明 ICU 与沈先生没有联系。[1266] [1265] 1110 [T22/15:23-25, 30:19-27] 1111 政府结案§523 1112 [I1-4/8776] 1113 [I1-4/8776-8777] 1114 [I1-2/1839]

  1. 4. 这是一个谎言:鸿毅远非立即移交,而是首先用另一个陈兆华取代沈先生,后者于 2023 年2 月 28 日成为董事和股东,大约在沈先生去世 7 个月后。2023 年 12 月 12 日,也就是沈葵涌先生去世约 17 个月后,陈振聪将他持有的 20,000 股股份转让给他,吴耀才成为鸿毅的董事和股东。1115
  2. 5. 尽管如此,ICU 还是毫无疑问地接受了鸿毅的陈述。尽管知道工程已经进行了
  1. 6. ICU 从未亲自见过 Ng Yeuk 先生,从未直接收到他的电子邮件,也从未核实鸿毅代表是否真正获得他的授权。当 ICU 试图在 2024 年 10 月 23 日安排一次检查时(最终于 2024 年 10 月28 日进行),是鸿毅的 Wong Hap Yin Jason 先生回复的。1116 1117
  2. 根据《建筑物条例》(第 123 章)第 30D 条,订明修葺工程必须由注册名册上的自然人(而非公司)注册检验人员监管。尽管完全依赖注册检验人员(RI)来规范自己和注册检验人员

(RI),国际 ICU 从未证实注册检验人员(RI)的实际参与。 1118

B4. ICU 与 BD 实践的差异

(i) 2023 年现场安全检查政策

审核的个案)进行现场安全检查。独立审查组的立场是,它直到 2025 年 12 月 22 日才意识到这项工地安全检查政策——在屋宇署采用这项政策近三年之后。1119

1115 [WS2/1298] 1116 [I1-4/8752-8754] 1117 [T22/29:24-30:2] 1118 [B2/256, 402] 1119 容少麟 WS§42 [WS1/670] 1120 [I1-4/8982]

和/或电子邮件,BD 的 SMS 从 2023 年 4 月开始对 I 级 MW 站点进行现场审核,直到您的电子邮件日期为 2025 年 12 月 22 日。”

  1. 屋宇署最终于 2026 年 1 月 6 日将反映这一安排的最新《工地监察手册》通知屋宇署。1121

1121 [I1-4/8986] 1122 刘富国 WS§§21-23 [WS1/613-614] 1123 [I1-4/9179] 1124 [A8/879] 1125 [T24/43:3-36]

预先通知视察

  1. 2. 屋宇署的小型工程现场监测手册(2025 年 4 月)规定,现场审计检查和定期安全检查必须是“事先不通知AP / RSE / RGE / RC”的突击检查(第 1.1 条)。屋宇署的突击检查安排,也适用于在接获投诉后进行的现有楼宇检查,包括有关地盘安全的投诉,以及有关注册商和注册商的不当行为的投诉。1129 1130
  2. 3. 屋宇署收到投诉后,会先前往有关地点,查明情况,然后如有需要,才会联络扶轮社及扶轮社跟进。1131

1126 [T24/44:7-12] 1127 政府结案第 648 条 1128 余泽生 2nd WS§7 [WS14/2171-2172] 1129 余泽生 2nd WS§8(I)(a) [WS14/2172-2173] 1130 [j /7919] 915。突击检查的目的是在检查人员到达之前,不让承建商有机会假装遵守或隐瞒不遵守。这符合常识。 [1291] 1131 [T20/30:34-31:15, 32:5-10]

其他政府部门也采取了同样的做法:914.1. 消防处助理处长姜世明表示,消防处在处理投诉时, 不会事先通知任何人士,以避免影响调查的公正性和公正性。1132 914.2. 劳工处的林秀清女士表示,所有在宏福苑进行的检查都是在没有事先通知 RC、RI 或管理处的情况下进行的。 1133

Andy Ku 先生承认,预先通知是 ICU 对大多数病例的长期做法,而不是针对具体病例的决定 (哋)。1134

说句公道话,当有人向顾先生提出预先通知会给注册检验人员(RI)或注册检验人员(RI)隐瞒违规行为的机会时,他没有接受。据顾先生说,独立审查组通知注册检验人员(RI),注册检验人员(RI)的职责是监督注册检验人员(RI)。因此,注册检验人员(RI)不应该通知扶轮理事会有关预先通知,而扶轮理事会被通知的风险只是在理论上出现。1135

然而,这种解释是站不住脚的。实际上,ICU 不仅提前通知注册检验人员(RI)视察,而且还 要求注册检验人员(RI)通知注册检验人员(RI)视察的情况。刘慧玲女士与鸿毅于 2025 年 10 月 27 日的讯息显示:在上午 10 时 10 分,刘慧玲女士要求鸿毅的杨先生安排 PC&E 的 谭三生先生(即委员会)出席视察。1136 918.2. 这种解释也是有问题的,因为它假设注册检验人员(RI)总是恰当地独立于注册检验人员(RI)行使其监督角色。情况并非总是如此。

政府已相当接受上述的不一致是“实务上的差异需要改进的工作范畴”,而检控组的实务“是出于诚意”

ICU 方法的改变是朝着正确方向迈出的一步。然而,它也提出了一个问题,即既然两个政府机构之间有许多沟通渠道,为什么首先会出现分歧,特别是与屋宇署的做法不同。

1132 姜世明第 4 期WS§4 [WS8/1909] 1133 林秀清 2nd WS§5 [WS13/2107] 1134 [T22/33:1-35:5];也参见[T22/42:30-32] 1135 [T22/36:16-20] 1136 [I1-4/8766-8767]

审计抽样方法

  1. 屋宇署采用ISO-2859-1 国际标准,在其MBIS 随机审核检查中确定样本大小,并根据批量大小调整样本大小。1137
  2. 相比之下,ICU 的计算机系统只是通过投票选择每月固定的 16 个案件进行审计,而不管该月收到多少提交的案件。1138
  3. 独立审查组的证人不认为这与屋宇署的做法有任何分歧。刘鲁道夫的证据是,每月 16 宗的数

字是根据屋宇署根据国际标准化组织(ISO)制定的约 1725 宗年度审计目标而调整的,而独立审查组的个案量约为屋宇署的四分之一。此外,由于提交的个案有所减少,现时的有效抽样率已高于国际标准化组织(ISO)的比例。1139

  1. 这些解释未能解决潜在的批评,这是一种方法论而不是算术。根据 BD 的方法(遵循 ISO-2859-

1),样本量响应批量大小。按照 ICU 的做法,这是不可能的。提交数量的激增会悄无声息地稀释采样率,而没有机制来检测不足。

  1. 此外,独立独立审查组不能两全其美:如果它的任务是毫无疑问地遵循屋宇署,那么显然的做法是采用屋宇署以 iso 为基础的方法本身,而不是从中得出一个固定的配额,然后随着情况的变化而保持数字不变。

(iv) ICU 与 BD 实践的差异总结

  1. 证据表明ICU 的实践至少在以下关键方面与 BD 的标准存在重大差异:927.1. 投诉检查的预先通知;927.2.施工过程中的现场安全检查;927.3.每月抽样审核;927.4.了解使用发泡胶板遮盖窗户的合法性(见下文第 B7(v)节);和 927.5。使用“快速测试”在现场刻录棚网(见下文第 B8(iv)节)。

1137 [T20/9:3-12];张 Yuk Ching WS§61 [WS1/799-800] 1138 Haroon Hamidah WS§7 [WS1/596];顾兆平 WS§29 [WS1/632] 1139 [T24/44:26-45:17]

B5. ICU 收到的投诉 (i)概览:ICU 只受理投诉的检查政策

  1. 证据表明,ICU 只对投诉进行现场检查的政策不仅是系统内的盲点(1140),而且与 BD 随机抽取不少于 20%的一级 MW 案例(监管计划提交审核)进行现场安全检查的做法不一致。1141
  2. 因此,在 ICU 采用的投诉驱动系统中,一切都取决于如何处理投诉。如果只有在居民投诉时才进行现场检查,那么这些投诉就是该制度下审查的唯一触发因素。
  3. ICU 确实收到了大量来自宏福苑居民的投诉。只对投诉进行检查的监管机构至少必须对其收到的投诉进行适当调查。ICU 没有。它对收到的投诉的答复是不充分的:有许多没有进行充分调查的情况,在这些情况下,ICU 只是接受了 RC 和国际RI 的表面解释。

投诉的数量和性质

根据现有记录,在 2024 年 2 月至 2025 年 11 月期间,ICU 收到或参与了大约 41 起单独的投诉或调查。1142

ICU 的标准回应分为以下几类:(i)告诉投诉人该事项“与 ICU 无关”;(ii)在未经独立核实的情况下将投诉转交给鸿毅;(iii)告知投诉人直接与业主立案法团、管理公司或承办商联络;或(iv)未提供联系方式的结案案件。

934. 具体涉及消防安全问题的投诉包括:

日期 投诉 对 ICU 的回应发表评论 /跟踪

1140 [T24/35:9-12, 36:14-16] 1141 容少麟 WS§42 [WS1/670] 1142 (i1 - 4/8138 - 8743)

日期 投诉 对 ICU 的回应发表评论 13 年 9 月 13 日至 10 月 17 日 发泡胶板-至 ICU: 1304 年 9 月 17 日,1305 年 9 月 23 日,1306 年 10 月 16 日,2024.1307 年 10 月 17 日 ICU 在 20241308 年 11 月 7 日的回复中提到了棚网,并将吸烟提到了LD,但未能解决发泡胶板。 5 年 10 月 5 日- 2025 年 10 月 23 日 棚网可燃性-至少三个投诉:-对 ICU: 20241309 年 10 月 5 日;2025 年 9 月 29 日;13102025 年 10 月 23 日 (明确指华懋大厦火灾及 处理方式如下。 日期 投诉 对 ICU 的回应发表评论 /跟踪 警告网是可燃的) 6 年 11 月 6 日(火灾前 20 天) 棚架安全——高处坠石;关注老化棚网.1312 ICU 向鸿毅转达了投诉;鸿毅附加事件报告 2024 年 8 月 11 日 吸烟——在建筑工地吸烟 没有任何 ICU 随访记录。

935. 总体情况是,居民在很长一段时间内反复对宏福苑的消防安全发出警报。

(iii) ICU 对投诉的处理不当

在 2024 年 9 月 17 日结案了一起关于发泡胶板的匿名投诉,因为没有提供个人联系方式, 尽管该投诉引起了消防安全问题,无论是否可以联系到投诉人,都需要进行调查。同样,当Kong b 张 Fat 先生在 2025 年 10 月 23 日的投诉中提到华懋大厦棚架火灾并警告宏福苑的网可能是可燃的时,1143 ICU 在 2025 年 10 月 24 日回复只是说 ICU 有 1144 936.2. 将投诉人引导回投诉对象:在 ICU 对发泡胶板投诉的答复中,ICU 建议,如果有进一步的查询,居民可以直接联系 IO、管理公司或承建商()。1145在 2024 年 10 月 22 日,ICU 向鸿毅发送了一封电子邮件,要求 RI (Mr Ng Yeuk)解决有关发泡胶板和棚网阻燃性的问题。1146 1143 [I1-4/8700] 1144 [I1-4/8221-8228] 1145 [I1-4/8251]

  1. 3. 未能解决投诉中的所有问题:2024 年 10 月 2 日收到的投诉提出了有关棚网、工人吸烟和发泡胶板的问题。ICU 在 2024 年 11 月 7 日的答复解决了棚网问题,并将吸烟问题提交给 LD, 但未能完全解决发泡胶板问题。1147 1148
  2. 4. 拒绝披露注册检验人员(RI)信息:在收到关于注册检验人员(RI)身份的询问后,1149 ICU 拒绝披露,因为鸿毅表示:“我们不想向任何第三方询问披露注册检验人员(RI)的细节”。由于 ICU 没有对注册检验人员(RI)进行监督,同时又不让公众知道注册检验人员(RI)是谁以及如何联系他,居民无法行使 1150
  3. 5. 推卸责任:此外,ICU 也经常拒绝处理它认为超出其职权范围的投诉,即使这些投诉与它负责监督的装修项目有关。

日期 投诉 ICU 的反应/随访 2024 年 3 月 17 日 刘博士- PC&E 及鸿毅.1324 所作的虚假陈述 它回答说:“它不会回答,因为它与他们无关。” 2025 年 1 月 17 日 Mr b 张- IO 关于维修项目的违规行为 回答说:“提出的问题与 ICU 无关。” 2025 年 3 月 18 日 林女士-结构缺陷 回复是“无法处理提出的问题”。 2025 年 5 月 12 日 陈先生-结构缺陷 回复是“无法处理提出的问题”。 2025 年 9 月 6 日 匿名-涉嫌非法劳工 1328 回复此事“应向相关部门提出”。

  1. 综上所述,这些缺陷掏空了国际上诉法院的投诉驱动系统所依赖的一个保障。投诉在没有调 查的情况下结案,在没有解决所提出的关切的情况下得到答复,或者被转到被投诉的当事方。投诉是 ICU 采取行动的唯一诱因,然而当投诉提出时- -正如它们在宏福苑时一再发生的那样

1146 [I1-4/8753-8754]对 ICU 系统交给他们的现场监督的基本监督。 1147 [I1-4/8285] 1148 [I1-4/8281] 1149 [I1-4/8445] 1150 [I2/9716]

B6. ICU 没有注意到工人通道口 (i)创建工人通道口的做法

  1. 第二章研究了工人通道口被称为“saang hau”的创造,大约每隔五层楼梯,通过拆除窗户并用木制或铝复合板代替它作为门。
  2. 这些工人通道口是一个明显的火灾安全隐患,一个称职的监管机构行使普通的注意应该已经

识别和预防。第 4 章审查了这些开口如何在宏福苑造成大量伤亡。

(b)第 E13.1(a)条要求逃生楼梯围护墙满足表 E1 第 A1 项的不燃要求。1154 941.4. 《MBIS 操作规范》(2023 版)§3.5.2(E)要求 RI 通知建筑主管部门,除其他外,出口路线的围墙上未受保护的开口以及导致消防安全缺陷的逃生途径变更。1155

  1. Karen 张女士代表屋宇署确认,拆除防火楼梯窗户以制造工人通道口显然是违法的,违反《建筑物(建造)规例》及《建筑物消防安全实务守则》。1156

1151 [J1-2/5751] 1152 [B2/661] 1153 [B2/1158] 1154 [B2/1139-1140]基本检查(AFC)。两个被选中的提交是 MWBO2504820 和 MWBO2504821,涉及宏昌阁和宏志阁 (区块 F 和 H)。[1338] 1155 [J1-2/4881-4882] 1156 [T20/27:3-29]

健承认,在火灾发生前,ICU 并没有把注意力转向工人通道口的问题。1157 1158 (ii) ICU 审计检查未发现工人通道口

1157 [T23/19:11-14] 1158 [T23/19:16; 20:21-28] 1159 [I1-3/6212, 7954] 1160 [I1-3/7971]

图 7-1:MWBO2504820 1162提交文件中包含的宏昌阁楼梯开工前照片

的平面图/照片”)。1163 ICU 勾选“是”。有人可能会质疑审计的效用,这种审计只询问是否提供了平面图或照片,而且是否清楚,而不审查显示明显火灾危险的照片的内容。 1164

  1. 然而,容伟光先生解释说,MW01 表格内的动工前照片显示,工程可能在七天通知期届满前就已动工(即承建商可能已提早动工)。如果是 PSAC,这将是一个危险信号。但是,由于MW01 表格是在 afc 而不是 psac 下进行抽样审计的,因此没有发现违规行为。因此,严格的审计类别意味着文件上明显的不正常之处被忽略了,仅仅因为它属于不同的分类。而且这个鸽子笼非常小:监察局每年最多进行 25 次 psac 检查,这意味着绝大多数工程都不会因为开工前的违规行为而接受现场检查。 1165
  2. 因此,MWMS 记录确认“提交已按顺序检查,并支持主题审计评估的‘PASS’建议”。作为高级专业干事(SMS/ICU3)的容先生赞同这项建议。他作证说,他亲自检查了所有文件,发现MW 提交的文件通过了检查。1166 1167
  3. 正如容智勇承认的那样,“事后看来,有人注意到,有一些毕业典礼前的照片……显示某些窗户被木板覆盖着。”正如他接着承认的那样,“当时我并没有想到这些开口是专门为工人进出棚架而设置的。”1168 1169
  4. 容先生在取证听证会的证据是,他确实看过入口的照片,但不知道它们是工人进出的入口。他相信窗户是坏的
  5. 1. 随后,容智健被出示了他所审阅的作品中的几张照片,照片上每五层就有一个开口。他承认他在审查时没有注意到这种模式。1170

1163 [I1-3/6370] 1164 容少麟 WS§34 [WS1/666-667] 1165 容兆伦 WS§41 [WS1/670]破损,因此使用临时覆盖物来保护它们。那个解释在他的口头证词中不成立。[1350] 1166 [T23/15:29-16:1] 1167 [I1-3/6372] 1168 容少麟 2nd WS§28 [WS14/2125] 1169 容少麟 WS§40 [WS1/669]

  1. 2. 然后向他展示了宏昌阁中一个入口的照片,左边有一个锁,右边有一个警告标签(见图 7-1

(右))。委员会律师向容先生建议,如果临时盖是用来保护破窗,就不需要加锁。荣智健对此表示赞同:“我同意。”1171 1172 951.3. 最后,荣智健另一张照片显示,同意窗口覆盖实际上是能开的门,他不可能得出结论,这些封面只有保护 windows(如果你有心睇一啲开到,摆到明系一个出入口嘅相,你就冇可能觉得系爱嚟做保护㖞…同意)。1173

图 7-2:MWBO2504821 1174提交的楼梯的开工前照片

1171 [T23/22:5-17] 1172 [I1-3/6227] 1173 [T23/22:18-22] 1174 [I1-3/7971]

§10)。这些照片恰恰揭露了如此明显的违规行为,但由于没有人费心去检查照片所显示的内容,因此没有进行现场审计检查。 1176

B7. 发泡胶板 (i) ICU 对发泡胶板使用的了解

  1. ICU 于 2024 年 9 月首次收到关于发泡胶板用于覆盖宏福苑的窗口的信息。如上所述,ICU 在

2024 年 9 月至 10 月期间至少收到了四起关于发泡胶板的直接投诉。

957. 通过 1823 系统的第一个投诉是:1180

(宏福苑目前正在进行重大改造。大量泡沫存放在 F、G 和 h 座旁边。居民测试了碎片,发现它们是可燃的,没有阻燃属性……业主的管理委员会说这些发泡胶板将适用于每个家庭的窗户保 护。)

  1. 从最初的投诉中,ICU 知道:(i) 发泡胶板是易燃的;(ii)它们是用于“每户的窗户”(),即打算在该邨的所有 1984 个单元中广泛使用;(三)大量就地储存。

1176 [I1-1/525] 1177 [T17/29:23-27]; [T22/24:35-25:1]; [T24/35:29-36] 1178 [t23/22:2-4] "这是一个很好的例子。有居民自行拿了屋旁的碎料发泡胶进行测试,发现这些发泡胶是易燃物料, 不是有阻燃的特性…管委会说会使用这些发泡胶,贴在每户的窗上做保护” 1179 政府结案§653 1180 [I1-4/8230]

ICU 的视察和观察

  1. 2024 年 9 月 25 日,顾德华先生和刘慧玲女士在宏福苑进行了 ICU 的首次现场视察。据顾先生说:1181959.1. 他观察到大量的发泡胶板材料储存在地面上,包装上标有“CO 1182。”照片证实了现场的大量数量。1183 959.2. 他乘电梯上了一层楼,看到电梯大厅的一扇玻璃窗上贴着一个发泡胶板。1184
  2. 2024 年 10 月 28 日,古先生进行了进一步的视察。他告诉 PC&E,他担心发泡胶板“可能对居民造成火灾危险”。他还表示担心发泡胶板会影响自然采光和通风。PC&E 回应称,发泡胶板仅在打凿工作期间临时使用(一次三层),打凿完成后将立即移除。PC&E 还表示,未来将使用不燃材料。这次检查和这些讨论没有书面记录。 1185 1186

(iii) 据称与谢伟霆进行口头协商

  1. 古耀邦先生声称,在 2024 年九月二十五日视察后不久,他曾就使用发泡胶板的事宜,口头谘询谢耀邦先生(借调至 ICU 的屋宇署人员)。根据顾先生:1187961.1. 谢霆锋表示,临时使用发泡胶板遮盖窗户不被视为建筑工程;961.2.对所使用的发泡胶板的阻燃属性没有要求;和961.3。由于这些用途不会被视为违例建筑工程,因此不会被视为“可采取行动”。
  2. 这次谈话没有书面记录。谢先生表示,顾先生没有向他提供投诉、照片、现场视察观察或任

何有关发泡胶板使用规模的细节。顾先生自己也承认,他没有告诉谢霆锋有多少扇窗户 1188 1189

1181 顾小平 3 WS§§51-52 [WS14/2146-2147]

1183 [I1-4/8991, 8992, 8997, 8999] 1184 [I1-4/8994] 1185 顾绍平 3 WS§63 [WS14/2151] 1186 Ku Siu Ping 3rd WS§§61-63 [WS14/2150-2151]覆盖或多长时间。这与谢先生自己的回忆相符,他根本没有收到详细的信息。[1371] [1370] 1187 顾兆平 WS§60(i) [WS1/650];顾兆平 3 号WS§57 [WS14/2149] 1188 顾先生的证据是,ICU 的指导没有要求为这些口头谈话准备书面记录,这不是标准做法[T22/65:31-34]。

(建筑)规例》第 16 条适用于在建筑工程期间采取的“预防措施”,不论该措施是否构成“建筑工程”。 (iv) ICU 在火灾发生前未能跟进

1189 [T20/44:10-24] 1190 [WS3/1683] 1191 [WS3/1683] 1192 [T20/45:15-47:34] 1193 [T20/44:10-31]

PC&E 是否跟进了 2024 年 10 月 28 日承诺的事项。PC&E 的回答是肯定的。ICU 没有证实这一说法。1194

  1. 顾德华先生的证据,如上所述,是PC&E 向他保证,发泡胶板是临时的,只在打凿工作期间到位。Ku 先生承认,由于在 2024 年 10 月之后没有收到进一步的投诉,ICU 认为没有“强有力的证据”与 PC&E 的保证相矛盾。顾先生在他的口头证词中承认,没有投诉是在发泡胶板问题上没有采取更多行动的主要原因。对 ICU 来说,没有投诉意味着没有问题。 1195 1196 1197
  2. 但没有进一步的投诉是 ICU 自己造成的:970.1. 上诉委员会在 2024 年 11 月 12 日对申诉人的答复中声称,没有任何规定要求临时材料为阻燃,并指示任何进一步的查询向上诉委员会、管理公司或承建商进行。ICU 不仅错误地向投诉人陈述了法律立场(即没有规定要求发泡胶板为阻燃),而且还将投诉人引导回了作为投诉主体的当事人。970.2.正如顾先生所接受的那样,这一回复的效果是,居民不再向 ICU 抱怨发泡胶板。1198 2024 年 10 月 19 日之后没有

居民对发泡胶板的进一步投诉。1199 1200

结果是,ICU 仍然不知道数千名居民每天可以观察到的与承建商向 ICU 保证的情况相反的情况。

实际上,发泡胶板从 2024 年 8 月下旬开始一直被贴上,直到 2025 年 11 月大火,大约持续了 15 个月。他们的持续和广泛的使用是任何人都可以看到的,所有的居民都知道。PC&E 的保证

ICU 显然有办法调查发泡胶板是否比 PC&E 所声称的使用范围更广、使用时间更长。ICU 所需要做的就是访问宏福苑,并询问任何居民有多少扇窗户被覆盖了,覆盖了多长时间。确定使用的范围并不困难。

1194 顾绍平 2 WS§10 [WS1/676-677];顾兆平 3 号WS§66 [WS14/2152] 1195 顾小平 3 WS§§61-63 [WS14/2150-2151] 1196 顾兆平 2nd WS§35 [WS1/686]向 ICU 提出的关于发泡胶板的临时性质是错误的,并且对于任何费心去看的人来说, 这种虚假都是显而易见的——因为 ICU 尽管在那 15 个月里多次访问了现场,但从未这样做过。 1197 [T22/77:8-12] 1198 [T22/74:24-75:9, 77:23-78:10] 1199 [D1/1122] 1200 [I1-4/8251]

在随后的几个月里,ICU 收到了大量的照片证据,清楚地显示发泡胶板覆盖窗户-但没有注意 到:974.1. 2024 年 11 月 11 日,ICU 收到了显示发泡胶板的投诉照片。顾先生事后承认,他 后来才意识到窗户被发泡胶板覆盖。1201 974.2. 2025 年 1 月 21 日,联检组自己的视察照片 清楚地显示为发泡胶板。顾先生事后承认这些很可能是。1202 974.3. 2025 年 3 月 12 日,鸿毅向 ICU 发送了一个 ppt 演示1203和两个视频。至少有 21 张照片清楚地显示了发泡胶板。视频也清楚地显示了发泡胶板。1204 1205 1206 1207 974.5. 2025 年 6 月 27 日和 7 月 2 日,PC&E 和鸿毅的代表通过 WhatsApp 向 ICU 发送了照片,其中 8 张照片显示的是发泡胶板。1208

尽管有照片作为证据,ICU 没有人问一个明显的问题:为什么发泡胶板还在那里?他们会待多久?这种用法已经成为永久性的了吗?有多少扇窗户被盖住了?

原因出现在口头证据中。独立审查组没有保留独立审查组与PC&E 讨论的书面记录,独立审查组承认他可能只是忘记了这一点。ICU 承认的唯一触发因素是投诉,而它自己的回复确保了没有人会投诉。在这方面,鉴于证据,政府不得不接受,独立审查组(ICU)“尽管在 2024 年 10 月之后多次检查和收到文件,但没有彻底跟进发泡胶板问题”。1209 1210

(v)非法使用发泡胶板作为窗户遮盖板

  1. 经多位证人证实,商务部的立场是,在外墙和窗户上广泛使用发泡胶板违反了法律:

1201 顾绍平 2nd WS§7 [WS1/675-676] 1202 顾兆平 WS§16 [WS1/679] 1203 [I2/9634] 1204 [I2/C(2)23B. 250312] 1205 [I1-4/8467] 1206 [1-4/9066] 974.4. 2025 年 6 月 3 日,ICU 自己的检查照片清楚地显示窗户上贴着发泡胶板。检查目的(检查空调罩)必然涉及到查看窗户附近的结构。[1391] 1207 [I2/9665-9666, 9668-9670, 9672, 9674-9684, 9708, 9710-9712] 1208 [I1-4/8876-8880] 1209 政府结案§589 1210 [T22/78:21-23]

  1. 2. Karen b 张女士在聆讯上表示,屋宇署认为该等用途不符合《建筑物(建造)规例》第 16 条的规定。她进一步指出,覆盖窗户的发泡胶板也违反了《建筑物(规划)规例》(第 123F 章) 第 30 条,因为它们不能满足照明和通风的要求。1211 1212
  2. 3. 《建筑物消防安全实务守则》(2011 年版)第 F5.6(f)条规定:“任何存放于建筑物内的易燃及可燃物料,均应妥善保管,避免积聚过多。”在 windows 上大规模使用发泡胶板违反了这一要求。 1213
  3. 4. 作业备考 APP-70(1995)要求覆盖外墙的材料不得妨碍自然通风和采光。不透明的发泡胶板覆盖窗户违反了这一要求,也会阻止居民观察外面的火灾情况。 1214
  4. 因此,古先生在其证据中的立场-“我们不能推断使用发泡胶板违反 B(C)R 第 16 条”1215 -与屋宇署的观点相反,并反映了对有关规例的过分狭隘的解释。
  5. 如果对该立场有任何疑问,ICU 可以咨询 BD。然而,ICU 从未正式将发泡胶板问题提交给 BD 征求其意见,也没有书面记录显示 ICU 就此问题咨询了 BD。尽管顾先生承认,上诉法庭“应遵从屋宇署作为《行政条例》下的检控当局的意见,考虑使用发泡胶板是否违反《行政条例》第 16 条。”1216
  6. 此外,尽管发泡胶板是检查的主题之一,但 ICU 在 2024 年 10 月 29 日发给 BD 的报告 2024 年

10 月 28 日检查的电子邮件中没有提及发泡胶板问题。ICU 只报告棚网测试结果。 1217

1211 [B2/547]; [T20/24:9-25:10] 1212 [t20/23:20-33]值得注意的是,顾先生承认,如果他知道发泡胶板的使用如此广泛,就会考虑发出停工令。这一承认削弱了他的立场,即发泡胶板的使用不受监管——如果它真的不受监管,那么根据什么发布停工令? [1401] 1213 [B2/1159] 1214 [J1-1/688] 1215 顾绍平 WS§59 [WS1/648-649] 1216 顾绍平 WS§59 [WS1/648-649] 1217 [I1-4/8252]

B8. 棚网

(i)防火标准

  1. 多种监管工具要求棚网拥有阻燃属性:984.1. 实践笔记 APP-70(1995):用于覆盖棚架的塑料布必须具有阻燃属性。1219 984.2. 2023 年 3 月 21 日的 BD 通函:安装在外墙上的所有防护网、 屏风、防水布或塑料布应具有符合公认标准的适当阻燃性能,包括 GB 5725-2009、BS 5867- 2:2008 和 NFPA 701:2019。1220 984.3. 屋宇署于 2025 年 10 月 21 日发出的通函(在华懋大厦 棚架火灾后发出):所有订明建筑专业人员(“pbp”)和 rc 应“立即采取行动,检查和确定”防 护材料具有适当的阻燃属性。1221 984.4. 根据屋宇署的证据,1222 棚网也构成《建筑物(建造) 规例》第 16 条下的“预防措施”。1223
  2. 5. 根据建筑法规第 3(1)-(2)条,pbp(包括 RIs)和 rc 有责任确保棚网符合阻燃标准,并通过认可实验室的证书进行验证。1224

(ii)关于棚网的投诉

台风后棚网网受损,并附上新旧网的不同照片。1226 985.3. 2025 年 10 月 23 日,孔令辉提出后续投诉,明确提及中环华懋大厦大火 1218 [B13/5718] 1219 [J1-1/688-689] 1220 [J1-2/5915] 1221 [J1-2/6192] 1222 曰翟唱 WS§28 [WS1/819]中环发生棚架大火,所有棚网都助燃,另火势一发不可收拾, 1223 [B2/661] 1224 余泽生 WS§35 [WS1/823] 1225 [I1-4/8255-8256] 1226 [O1/45-47]

本屋苑居民十分担心). 1227

  1. 4. 2025 年 11 月 6 日,孔先生投诉石头从高处落下,引发了人们对棚网老化的担忧。1228

尽管居民的警告不断升级,最后的投诉在火灾发生前三周才到达,但 ICU 的回应仍然不足,详情如下。 预先通知视察及其后果

ICU 在宏福苑进行了三次棚网检查:2024 年 10 月 28 日,2024 年 11 月 18 日和 2025 年 10 月 28 日。1229每次都事先通知了鸿毅和 PC&E。

2025 年 10 月 28 日的事件证明了预先通知的后果。这些事件已在前面的章节中讨论过,现再次总结如下:988.1. 2025 年 10 月 27 日(检查前一天),ICU 的 Amanda Lau 女士通过 WhatsApp 通知鸿毅, ICU 希望了解台风后更换的新旧网的规格和阻燃性,而 Andy Ku 先生希望在每个楼宇安排抽样测试。1230 988.2. PC&E 几乎立即收到了检查通知。到上午 9 点 54 分,Sam Tam 在一个标记为“不披露”的WhatsApp 群组聊天中给 Hau Wa Kin 发信息说 988.3. 陈耀辉先生表示,在同一天,他收到 PC&E 的通知,要求他紧急订购 115 张阻燃网,以应付检查(他认为是劳工处的检查)。1231

因此,预先通知直接使 PC&E 能够在检查之前用符合要求的材料替换不符合要求的材料——这正是突击检查旨在防止的结果。

古永锵先生事后解释预先通知的理由是:“注册检验人员(RI)和注册承建商(RC)必须集中精力,就棚架安全的具体问题采取有针对性的适当跟进行动。”这个解释不能令人信服。顾

1227 [1-4/8700] ICU 将于第二天下午到现场进行烧网测试(ok)。[1417] 1228 [O1/59-62] 1229 顾小平 WS§48 [WS1/640] 1230 [I1-4/8766-8767] 1231 陈耀辉 WS§17 [WS2/1439-1440]

先生本人承认,ICU 的标准做法总是预先通知——这不是一个需要特别理由的个案决定。 1232

(RC)采取后续行动的关切之间并不矛盾。ICU 本可以:(i)进行一次突击检查,然后指示现场领班协助取样以供实验室测试;或(ii)进行突击检查,拍摄场地情况,然后通知注册检验人员(RI)需要进行实验室测试,并将突击检查期间观察到的实际情况与发出通知后提交的情况进行比较。1233

(四)ICU 的快速烧伤试验——方法不充分

ICU 在现场使用点烟器对棚网进行了“快速测试”。屋宇署的 Karen 张女士确认屋宇署从未对棚网进行现场测试,因为阻燃性测试标准要求在特定的受控实验室环境中进行测试。1234

“然而,值得注意的是,与严格按照既定标准在受控环境中进行的实验室测试不同,现场快速 测试没有公认的行业标准。” 1235

ICU 偏离 BD 的做法——使用科学上不可靠的快速检测而不是实验室检测——是不合理的,可能给居民带来了一种虚假的安全感。

此外,在进行快速检测的所有情况下,ICU 只在一楼和屋顶检测棚网,这是最容易到达的地点。 ICU 从未在建筑物的中层测试过棚网。

这种可预测的模式使 PC&E 很容易将兼容的网络置于可访问的级别。PC&E 只需要确保地面和屋顶的网络能够通过。国际监护委员会提前通知其检查工作,使这一漏洞更加严重。

1232 顾兆平 3rd WS§38 [WS14/2141-2142] 1233 后者确实是 BD 的做法[T20/32:1-16] 1234 [T20/19:30-36] 1235 顾兆平 3 号WS§21 [WS14/2135-2136]

(v) 2024 年 10 月 28 日屋顶试验

  1. 2024 年 10 月 28 日,屋顶试验视频清晰显示:1236 998.1. 棚网在接触较轻的火焰约 15 秒后起火;998.2.火焰被移走后,网继续燃烧了大约 10 秒;和 998.3。有人把火吹灭了。
  2. PC&E 向 ICU 提供的阻燃证书第 10 项规定,后焰时间为 0 秒,标准要求不到 4 秒。然而,观

察到的后焰时间至少是 10 秒——与证书完全不符。1237

1236 [i - 1 / 4/8988](视频名称为“1_20241028_RF”) 1237 [I1-4/8793] 1238 顾小平 3 号WS§26 [WS14/2137] 1239 [T25/46:6-8]进行随访快速试验。然而,更合适的后续行动应该是送样本去实验室测试(李永文博士也认为这是值得的)。 [1431] 1240 顾兆平 WS§48(i) [WS1/642] 1241 [I1-4/8252]

明这些防护网也符合阻燃标准。鉴于上述情况,目前没有证据表明这些防护网不符合阻燃要求。”

  1. 该报告没有透露,在三次测试中,有一次显示网燃烧超过 10 秒,需要有人吹灭火焰。如果这样做,屋宇署很可能会建议加护组取得样本进行化验(正如李永文医生在观看加护组快速化验录像时所建议的那样)。1242
  2. 政府现在承认 2024 年 10 月 28 日的快速测试有“改进的空间”,并强调 2024 年 11 月 18 日的快速测试有“改进空间”

(vi)无法验证证书(2024 年 10 月)

  1. 在 2024 年 10 月 28 日的检查当天,PC&E 通过 WhatsApp 提供了日期为 2024 年 1 月 8 日的阻燃证书。1243
  2. ICU 的文件审核仅包括检查证书是否符合 GB 5725-2009 的要求。1244 ICU 未进行进一步验证:
  3. 1. 与屋宇署的一贯做法不同,检控组并没有核实该化验所是否为政府指定或香港实验所认可计划认可的化验所。1245 1008.2. ICU 没有联系实验室核实证书的真实性。1008.3.ICU 没有检查(例如核对发货记录)使用的棚网批次是否与认证批次相对应。
  4. 如第 2 章所述,PC&E 提交的防火证书可能不是真的。顾德华先生承认,火灾发生后,ICU 检查了证书上的认可编号,并注意到签发机构名称的差异(即:与之相对的是:与之相对的是: 与之相对的是

证书不是真的。1246

1242 [T25/46:6-8] 1243 [I1-4/8790-8791] 1244 [T22/51:1-3]; [I1-4/8792] 1245 [T20/18:11-26] 1246 [t22 /51:26- 29,52:11 -20]阻燃证书特别重要,因为(正如现在的证据所显示的)新一批替换网实际上不是阻燃。

向重症监护室发现证书是伪造的相同检查本可以在火灾发生前完成。他们所需要的只是一个 课桌练习,实际上是火灾后重症监护室做的。如果在 2024 年 10 月第一次收到证书时就进行了这一演习,那么欺诈行为将在火灾发生一年多前暴露出来。

(七)新网未取得合格证(2025 年 10 月)

到 2025 年 10 月 28 日的检查,ICU 意识到棚网在被超级台风 Ragasa 损坏后被替换。居民们 注意到,更换后的棚网颜色较浅。孔先生在 2025 年 10 月 2 日通过 1823 的查询中特别指出, 颜色较浅的是新更换的网()。ICU 自己的照片显示了色差。1247 1248

尽管知道棚网已被更换(即与先前认证的棚网不同的批次),但 ICU 没有为新批次申请阻燃证书。2024 年 1 月的证书显然不适用于 2025 年 10 月采购和安装的棚网。

顾先生的证据是,ICU 在评估阻燃性时“主要依靠测试证书”。然而,对于新棚网,ICU 从未检查过任何更换棚网的证书,这意味着根本没有采用主要的核查方法。这次视察失败又引起了新的火灾 1249

顾先生的解释是,ICU 要求但没有提供新网的防火证书。他解释说,这是因为鸿毅向 ICU 表示,新旧网是由同一家供应商提供的,并且使用了相同的证书。1250

然而,PC&E 出具的证书的日期是 2024 年 1 月 8 日,比检查早了近 22 个月,而且是在台风更换之前很久就提供的。此外,新网和旧网在颜色和透明度上明显不同。因此,有充分的理由测试鸿毅的表示,而不是接受它的表面价值。

然而,顾先生承认,ICU 从未考虑过该证书是否与悬挂在棚架上的1251网相符,也没有采取任何形式的证明文件——没有交货单,没有供应商详细信息。只要要求出示证明更换网来自同

1247 [I1-4/9100] 1248 [O1/47] 1249 顾兆平 3 号WS§21 [WS14/2135-2136] 1250 [t22/56:19-35]根据承建商的解释,自上个月台风后,他们已逐步修复受损的棚架及棚网, 现场可见许多棚网已更换。就上述问题,本组已指示承建商尽快完成修复,并由合资格人士检验及签发证明,证实棚架安全后方可使 用。” 1251 [T22/50:19-24]

一制造商的文件,就会暴露出虚假:更换网是从不同的供应商那里购买的,并明确订购为非阻燃。 1252 (viii) 上诉法庭对投诉人的答复(2025 年 10 月)

2025 年 10 月 28 日检验后,ICU 对原告说:1253”针对你的反映,本组已联同注册检验人员进行实地视察,并向承建商了解情况。视察发现,部分外墙保护设施仍有欠妥之处, (我们的小组与注册检验人员(RI)进行了实地视察,并向承建商进行了查询。检查发现缺陷, 包括棚网上的洞。根据承建商的说法,自上个月的台风以来,他们已经逐步更换了损坏的棚网。 我们已指示承建商完成维修,并有合格人员证明棚架安全。)

申诉人的实际问题是关于阻燃性的——网子是否能经受住火灾,指的是华懋大厦的大火。ICU 的回复提到了物理损坏和漏洞,但没有提到网是否符合阻燃标准。因此,提出的具体安全问题没有得到解决。政府承认在这方面还有改进的余地。1254 (ix) 火灾后的发展(PNRC 85)

2025 年 12 月 19 日,BD 发布了注册承建商(“PNRC”)85 的实践备考,引入了一个新的制度 来解决欺诈测试报告的问题:1255 1019.1. 在安装防护材料前,研究中心必须安排第三方随机 抽取材料样本,并将样本送交政府指定的实验所认可实验所。目前有 17 个这样的实验室拥 有这个称号。 1256

1019.2. 如果任何样品不合格,整批样品不能使用。1257

  1. 3. 屋宇署会在不同楼层和不同位置随机抽取样本,送到政府化验室进行实地检查。1258

1252 [T22/50:33-36] 1253 [I1-4/8706] 1254 政府结案§539 1255 [J1-2/6200] 1256 [J1-2/6202] 1257 [J1-2/6203] 1258 [J1-2/6203]

B9. ICU 的失败总结

  1. 证据表明,ICU 与宏福苑火灾有关的失败是系统性和多方面的:1021.1. 未能进行系统性的现场检查:ICU 在施工阶段没有现场安全检查机制。唯一的原因是公众的投诉,但这些投诉处理不当。1021.2.完全脱离注册检验人员(RI):国际监督委员会从未与注册检验人员(RI) 会面、联系或证实注册检验人员(RI)的存在或参与,也未能将明显的危险信号视为审查的 理由。1021.3.被忽视的警告数量:ICU 收到了许多关于宏福苑的消防安全问题的投诉和询问。尽管如此,ICU 未能识别或解决火灾当天出现的任何火灾风险。1021.4.未能发现工人通道口: 尽管在 MW01 提交的文件中有明确的工人通道口照片证据,但 MW 团队未能注意到消防安 全漏洞。
  2. 5. 未能解决发泡胶板的使用问题:ICU 接受了PC&E 的保证,即发泡胶板仅在剽窃作品期间使用,这是现场条件和大量照片证据暴露的谎言。重症监护病房一直没有跟进,他们认为病人 已经不再抱怨了。但他们的沉默是 ICU 自己造成的:ICU 告诉居民,发泡胶板没有受到监管, 这是法律上错误的立场,从而阻止了居民的投诉。
  3. 6. 棚网检查不充分: ICU 预先通知检查,未能核实证书,未能要求更换网的证书。
  1. 7. 与 BD 的沟通失败: ICU 对BD 的现场安全检查政策不了解近三年,未能采用 BD 的突击检查做法,对发泡胶板的合法性与 BD 的观点不同,并对棚网采用了一种不可靠,不科学且未被BD 使用的快速现场燃烧测试一下。
  2. 这些失败共同意味着 ICU 在关键施工期间没有对宏福苑改造提供有效的监管监督。居民们一再提出担忧,但 ICU 一再未能进行调查。鉴于非阻燃棚网和工人通道口对宏福苑重大伤亡的因果影响(参见第 2 章和第 4 章),这些系统性故障的后果是灾难性的。

C. 屋宇署(BD)

C1. BD 的角色、对 ICU 的授权和监督职责

  1. 屋宇署是本港负责楼宇管理的主要当局。屋宇署负责执行《建筑物条例》(第 123 章)及其附属法例,包括《建筑物(建造)规例》(第 123Q 章)。
  2. 正如上文所述,屋宇署已根据正式的授权文书,将其楼宇管制权力下放给审裁处。1259
  1. 1. 屋宇署派三名高级专业人员永久前往 ICU 履行衔接职能(第 3.1 条)。Karen b 张女士还将他们的角色描述为确保两个组织之间一致性的桥梁。1261 1025.2. ICU 每六个月提交一次进度报告(第 3.2 条)。1025.3.BD“必要时可对 ICU 进行审计检查”(第 3.2 条)。1262

的标准与 BD 的标准保持一致。因此,BD 1264 C2. BD 未能审核 ICU 或沟通策略

(i) BD 从未审计 ICU

  1. 根据谅解备忘录第 3.2 条,屋宇署可在有需要时对审裁处进行审核,以确保标准的一致性。凯伦张女士证实,她的知识,ICU 的 BD 从未审计可以发行工作(据我嘅认知,譬如好似系个强制验楼底下,我哋冇抽佢哋啲工作嚟做(审计)嘅)。1265

1259 [T20/12:22-31] 1260 [J1-1/2043]在 ICU 的政策制定和适当监管方面负有责任。 1261 [T20/14:1-8] 1262 [J1-1/2047] 1263 [T20/14:21-28] 1264 [T20/13:32-34] 1265 [T20/35:5-6]

当被问及为什么,鉴于谅解备忘录明确规定了这种审计时,b 张女士无法回答。1266

刘志强亦同意,据他所知,屋宇署从未审核 ICU 的 MBIS 工作。1267

由此可见,屋宇署并没有在《谅解备忘录》下就楼宇管理系统的工作履行其审计职能,而审控组亦没有主动检讨其工作方式,以确保与屋宇署保持一致。

如果屋宇署在任何时候行使其审核职能,它很可能会发现审控组存在上述的系统性缺陷,包括在第一类小型工程期间进行零工地安全检查,以及在进行投诉检查前发出通知。 (ii) BD 未能传达 2023 年的政策

如上所述,监察小组的证据是,监察小组在 2025 年 12 月 22 日才得知屋宇署在 2023 年 4 月 采取了一项政策,即选择 20%的 I 级 MW 进行现场安全检查,并附有监督计划。Nick Yung 先生的证据是,如果 ICU 知道这项政策,那么通过现场检查发现工人通道口的“几率相当高”。 1268 1269

在向审裁处出示证据后,Karen 张女士承认,如果有更好的沟通是必要的,但她无法解释为什么审裁处不知道屋宇署的工地监管政策。对于未能将 BD 的现场监督政策传达给 ICU,没有提供充分的理由。 1270 C3. 屋宇署将大型翻新工程分类为小型工程

(i) 小型工程监管制度 -分类问题

  1. 宏福苑翻新工程总值约为 3.3 亿港元,涉及对八座高层住宅大厦进行全面外墙翻新工程,这些大厦共有数千名居民居住。这项工程被列为小型工程,而非需获审委会批准和同意的大型工程。

1266 [T20/35:11] 1267 [T24/40:21-41:3] 1268 容少麟 WS§43 [WS1/671] 1269 杨少伦 WS§42 [WS1/670-671] 1037。刘慧玲女士解释,简化小型工程程序是为了方便业主。[1461]目标当然是 1270 [T20/30:6-10]

屋宇署地盘监察组手册第 2 节第 11 号指示将需要“整幢建筑物包括外立面翻新”的外部&a 工程列为“高风险”地盘。1271但相同的工程在宏福苑被视为低风险的小工程。 对于真正的小作品是合法的。但适用于宏福苑的 BMR 工程,该分类取消了具有这种风险级别的项目所要求的事先批准和监督保障措施。

正如这位学识渊博的主席所说,宏福苑的大规模翻新工程是最危险的一种工程,因为有人住在工地内,但适用的监管可能比新大楼的建筑工地更宽松,因为那里根本没有人住。b 张女士承认这一担忧。 1272

将BMR 工程分类为小型工程令委员会感到困扰。欧阳博士向屋宇署追问,这种规模的工程项目是否应适当地界定为小型工程,因为这种区分直接关系到需要事先批准和监督的程度。 1273

在回应欧欧阳博士的提问时,林郑月娥证实,在火灾后修订法例,会将大型燃料堆工程提升至第 I 类小型工程,即1274: 1040.1. 要求由独立于 RC 的第三方 AP 监督;1040.2.要求提交详细说明工作程序和保护措施的指明图则;和 1040.3。开工前需要 BD/ICU 批准。1275 C4. BD 依靠棚网防火证书

Karen b 张女士证实,在火灾发生之前,BD 自己对棚网的做法仅限于审查证书,它没有为随后的实验室测试进行现场抽样。她的证词的意思是,屋宇署会在火警发生前,查核证书是由哪间实验所发出,以及该实验所是否获实验所认可或相互认可。有关屋宇署火灾前工作的描述已提交给顾先生,顾先生并没有提出异议,但他指出,屋宇署在火灾前发出的指引或作业备考中并没有说明。1276 1277

1271 [I3/9878-9879] 1272 [T20/37:21-24] 1273 [T20/36:36] 1274 [T20/37:9-13] 1275 [T20/8:3-11] 1276 [T22/53:2-11] 1277 [T20/17:16-18, 18:11-32]

C5. BD 的机构责任——结论

(Grenfell Tower)就是近期最突出的例子。格伦费尔大厦事件的核心教训是,一栋被占用的 1278 余泽生 WS§53 [WS1/829];(J1-2/6205)

高层建筑外部的可燃材料可能会使一场局部火灾演变成一场灾难,这一教训已被屋宇署和消防处研究过。

  1. 宏福苑的危害有增无减,不是因为它们是新奇的,而是因为没有部门(包括屋宇署)意识到同样的现象可能在建筑翻新工程中再次发生。未能预见到可预见的事情,既是屋宇署的责任, 也是消防处的责任。 1279

D. 消防处(FSD) D1. 消防处的整体角色及法定责任法定职责

任何合理时间进入任何处所,以确定是否存在火警危险。1282 1052.2. 第 9 条:消防处处长可发出“消减火灾危险通知书”(“消减火灾危险通知书”),要求任何人消减火灾危险。1283 1052.3. 《消防(消减火情)规例》(第 95F 章)第 4 条:如该人未能减低火情,消防处处长可进行所需工程以减低火情。1284 1279 [T27/9:22-25, 11:14-12:9] 1280 [B2/82] 1281 [B2/77]可燃材料的数量,消防处是有权根据第 9 条送达 FHAN 而采取执法行动的部门。[1477] 1282 [B2/83] 1283 [B2/89] 1284 [B2/190]; [T19/21:17-22]

消防处处长杨仁坚在口头证词中证实了这些权力的广度。他同意第 8(1)(c)条的进入权是其他 部门可能没有的。他同意,一栋楼的公共区域有很大的空间 1285

根据《消防(装置及设备)规例》(第 95B 章)第 8 条的规定,楼宇业主须负法律责任,使消防装置保持有效的工作状态。业主必须聘请 RFSIC (注册消防装置承办商)至少每 12 个月检查一次 FSI。1286

消防处监察流动举报中心的主要机制是 FS251 证书:流动举报中心在检查后,必须在 14 天内发出证书,说明系统是否有效运作,并将一份副本送交署长。1287 (ii) 消防处的权力并不局限于在职消防处处长

在 U Storage Group Ltd 诉消防处处长[2020]HKCFI 2114 案中,法官陈伟信驳回消防处的权力只限于消防装置或非建筑工程的论点。博学的法官认为:12881056.1. 从《消防条例》的标题及第 7 条可见,消防处处长有广泛而全面的职责和权力,以保障和促进消防安全。此类职责和 权力不限于消防装置和设备或“非建筑工程”(见§38)。1289

  1. 3. 虽然屋宇署在楼宇消防安全方面确实有责任,但这并不意味着消防处处长不必关注同样的主题(第 57 条)。在这方面,BD 不具备必要的专业知识来确定,例如,什么会“在发生火灾时严重阻碍消防处履行其职责”(第 52 条)。1290 1291
  2. 4. 根据消防处向法庭提交的资料,消防处处长是具有灭火专业知识的法定机构,并就防火措施和火灾危险提供意见。消防处处长的专门任务是运用其专业知识制定适当的防火措施(第134(1)条)。1292

1285 [T19/20:28-36] 1286 姜世明 WS§§5.3.1,5.5.1 [ws1 /104- 105,108] 1287 姜世明 WS§5.4.2 [WS1/106] 1288 [A5/769] 1289 [A5/792] 1290 [A5/799] 1291 [A5/802-803] 1292 [A5/837]

  1. 3. 他同意,严格规定被动金融服务机构不属于消防处的管辖范围是不对的。1294

(iii) 消防处与屋宇署的分工

1058. 尽管有这些广泛的权力,但有证据表明,消防处与屋宇署有明确的分工。

Michael Yung 先生作证说,所有建筑材料(棚网, 发泡胶板)和被动FSIs(例如楼梯)都是屋宇署/ICU: 1059.1 的责任。他的证据是明确的:居民对发泡胶板、棚网和楼梯通道口的担忧 都应该去 ICU。1295 1059.2. 他同意在《消防条例》中没有明确的分工。1296 1059.3. 不过,容闳同意消防处会把撑开的烟门(被动防火装置)视为火灾隐患处理。这似乎与他的明确证据相矛盾,即被动金融服务机构将由 BD/ICU 处理。 1297

1060. 消防处处长杨仁坚的证词则更为微妙:

相互补充。相比之下,屋宇署已根据《建筑物消防安全实务守则 2011(2024 年版)》(“FS 守则”)规管1298及通道开口,因此消防处的执法工作将与屋宇署的角色相同。1299 1060.2. 不过,他同意消防处可以规管这些事宜,如果分工达成一致,消防处也不介意承担责任。 1300

1293 [T19/23:22-36] 1294 [T19/27:11-14] 1295 [T17/3:19-33] 1296 [T17/15:21-24] 1297 [T17/6:12-13] 1298 [T19/38:14-17] 1299 容智健表示,消防处同事如知悉有关事宜,会将有关事宜转介屋宇署[1493] [1498] 1300 [T19/27:7-10]

中可以看出分工。1301 1061.2. 容先生亦获介绍消防处向屋宇署转介违例建筑工程的标准备忘 录模板。其中一项转介事项是“楼梯口”。1302 1303

  1. 3. 当被问及《消防条例》、《财政司守则》和部门间备忘录是否有相对明确的职责分工时,消防处处长表示同意。1304
  2. 请委员会审议这种分工是否足以处理火灾安全风险,以及文件是否实际上支持证人所断言的那种明确的分工:1062.1. 参考的资料是屋宇署的金融服务守则和消防处的转介模板。政府并没有发现两个部门签署任何联合备忘录或协议,记录消防处与屋宇署/屋宇署商定的执法 责任分工。1062.2.即使存在这样的工具,劳动分工也只会为部门所知,而不是为公众所知。 欧阳博士指出,消防处自然是普通市民了解消防安全的第一站,但普通市民永远不会知道各 部门之间的职责分配。1305 1062.3. 学识渊博的主席同样指出,本案中的消防安全问题属于灰色地带。陈建波先生问,是否可以建立一个最终由某人负责的系统(兜),否则投诉可能会 发生 1306
  3. 4. 这些担忧是有根据的。无论消防处和屋宇署/ICU 之间的精确分配如何,本章的证据表明, 宏福苑的消防安全风险在实践中处于真空状态。
  4. 5. 以一个模板项目为例:“楼梯围合的开口”。转介机制以消防处注意到有关事项为前提,然后转介屋宇署。只有消防处先检查楼梯、寻找火警隐患,并确定通道开口,转介机制才可运作。否则就没有什么可参考的了。 1307
  5. 6. 如果有什么不同的话,消防处自己的转介模板中的“楼梯围合处开口”一栏,就是承认这些

开口是消防处的业务,是屋宇署的业务。然而,正如下文分析的证据所示,消防处在 26 次视察中,一次也没有视察宏福苑的楼梯。根本就没有采用转诊机制。

1301 [T17/27:23-29:22] 1302 [B6/4469] 1303 [B2/1154] 1304 [T19/45:4-14] 1305 [T17/26:12-17] 1306 [T17/16:24-25] 1307 [B6/4469]

  1. 7. 屋宇署可能更有能力采取执法行动,但这并不妨碍消防处进行例行检查,以发现火警隐患, 包括被动消防安全装置和建筑材料。重叠警戒是健全系统的一个特点。正如乌斯马尼教授在 另一种情况下所认为的那样,关注潜在火灾风险的人越多,早期发现火灾的可能性就越大。

1308

福苑寻找这些火灾隐患。如果消防处在 26 次巡查中有一次检查楼梯,就不会错过工人通道口。看到这些楼梯后,消防处就会有两种选择:自行减轻火灾危险,或根据转介模板将其转介给屋宇署。 D2. 消防处处理投诉的方法 (i)分类制度

  1. 消防处的投诉处理系统要求将所有收到的通讯首先分类为投诉(需要实地视察)或查询。将某一事项归类为“查询”的实际效果是消防处不会前往该处所。1309
  2. 消防处的《部门政策指示》将“有关消防安全事宜的投诉”定义为“有关火警隐患或需要调查的违反危险品/消防安全法例的举报或指控”。超出此定义的事项被归类为“查询”,没有现场出席。 1310
  3. 高优先级的投诉——那些“声称在发生火灾的情况下,居住者……可能无法逃到安全的地方”—

—必须在 24 小时内进行调查。1311

1308 IC 专家报告§7.4.4 [ER3/2255] 1309 霍春明 2 WS§§5-8 [WS2/1042-1044] 1310 [B2/2168] 1311 [B2/2172]

(ii) 发泡胶板投诉-消防处拒绝管辖

  1. 消防处接获多宗有关易燃发泡胶板的投诉,地点为宏福苑。在每宗个案中,消防处不是放弃管辖权,就是没有采取实质行动,或是在没有进行有意义的调查的情况下结案。以下是此类投诉的非详尽例子:

日期 投诉 消防处的回应/跟进 2024 年 9 月 13 日 发泡胶板.1508 阻碍逃生途径 消防处当天进行检查,发现建筑材料不在宏志阁范围内,但结论是: “地点不是 MoE 或EVA。”因此,申诉是不合理的"消防处向管理处提供了未指明的“消防安全建议”,并结案。消防处忽略了大量的发泡胶板所造成的火灾危险。 2024 年 9 月 13 日 用发泡胶板.1510 覆盖窗户的风险 消防处的接线员回答说:没有具体的规定来规管窗户上的材料。 2024 年 9 月 18 日 关于“火灾危险问题”的投诉,称居民已经测试了发泡胶板碎片,发现它们是易燃的。问及消防处是否有指引及有关安排是否符合消防安全标准 9 月 25 日(即一周多后)进行了检查,注意到“现场没有发现 FS 违规行为”,并于 2024 年 10 月 3 日结案。消防处的检查并没有评估发泡胶板的可燃性或火灾危险。 2024 年 9 月 30 日 2024 年 9 月 13 日的同一申诉人再次打来电话。消防处给出了同样的回答,并指示他向屋宇署查询 消防处坚持其立场,认为发泡胶板与消防处无关,并指示该居民前往屋宇署。 2024 年 10 月 4 日 管理委员会副主席(麦鸿崧)致消防处的电邮指出:“由于大部分窗户都被发泡胶板覆盖,我们处于高度危险之中,因为发泡胶板被发现是高度易燃的。 在 10 月 6 日的电话回复中,建议投诉人“向屋宇署寻求专业意见”,但没有提供具体的“消防安全意见”,并没有采取进一步行动消防处将此列为 “调查”而非“ 日期 投诉 消防处的回应/跟进 再加上工匠吸烟带来的危害。我们迫切需要你在现场检查和材料测试方面的帮助 “投诉”,意思是没有进行现场视察。

日期 投诉 消防处的回应/跟进 2024 年 10 月 16 日 电话查询有关该单位所有窗户的发泡胶板。大约两周后,消防处回复说:“没有任何规管窗户遮盖板的条例。 消防处的立场似乎是没有这宗投诉或查询的记录。

(iii) 吸烟投诉-管辖权混淆

1068. 消防处接获多宗有关工人在棚架上吸烟的投诉。以下是一些不详尽的例子:

日期 投诉 消防处的回应/跟进 2024 年 7 月 20 日 一名市民通过政府的职业安全与健康投诉平台投诉工人在棚架上吸 烟。劳工处已于 7 月 22 日转交消防处,因为它涉及火险 消防处于同日驳回投诉:“有关事项不在消防处管辖范围内。你不妨将此案提交有关部门处理 2024 年 8 月 11 日 给 ICU(显然还有消防处)发邮件抱怨在建筑工地吸烟 消防处在同一天答复说,吸烟是卫生部烟草控制办公室的责任 2024 年 10 月 11 日 以电邮通知消防处火警风险,包括工人吸烟及吸烟 消防处回应:许警长于 日期 投诉 消防处的回应/跟进 棚架上残留的垃圾 他在电话中“建议他们加强安全巡 逻,并通过禁止工人吸烟来加强翻新现场的管理”消防处并没有前往工地,亦没有将此事转介劳工处,亦没有采取执法行动。 2025 年 11 月 12 日 就在火灾发生前两周,一名宏昌阁居民给包括消防处在内的多个部门发了电子邮件,附上了工人在棚架上吸烟的照片。他表示害怕“棚架着火” 消防处于十一月十四日答复:“工地安全”及建筑工地的“吸烟活动”“不在消防处管辖范围内”。1523 消防处并没有将投诉转介其他部门,因为电邮已抄送劳工处及控烟办事处。

(iv) 火警通道投诉

  1. 从 2022 年到 2024 年,消防处收到了许多关于宏福苑防火通道受阻的投诉,包括 2022 年 5

月 7 日、2022 年 5 月 12 日、2022 年 5 月 16 日、2023 年 1 月 12 日、2023 年 6 月 6 日、 2023 年 7 月 20 日、2024 年 9 月 2 日、2024 年 9 月 2 日、2024 年 11 月 17 日、2024 年 11 月 19 日、2024 年 12 月 23 日。1312 1313 1314 1315 1316 1317 1318 1319 1320 1321 1322

没有证据显示消防处在回应这些投诉时检查过楼梯。楼梯通道口对居住者构成了迫在眉睫的危险,但从未被任何部门发现。 (v)摘要:投诉处理失败的模式

投诉记录显示了一致的模式:1072.1. 发泡胶板投诉(在 2024 年 9 月至 10 月期间向消防处提 出至少 7 宗投诉/查询):消防处对每宗投诉/查询均放弃管辖权,并告知居民与屋宇署或劳 工处联络,亦从未调查火警隐患。1072.2.吸烟投诉(在 2024 年 7 月至 2025 年 11 月期间向 消防处投诉至少 5 宗):消防处处理这些投诉不一致,但从未处理过

  1. 3. 消防梯投诉(在 2022 年至 2024 年期间向消防处投诉至少 12 起):消防处检查了一些,但没有发现障碍物。工人通道口从未被检测到。
  2. 消防处助理处长姜世明在回答主席的提问时表示,大型 BMR 工程的火警风险已接近最高水平。

1323

1312 [B2/1674-1676] 1313 [b2/1711 - 1715] 1314 [b2/1716 - 1728] 1315 [b2/1729 - 1730] 1316 [b2/1520 - 1532] 1317 [b2/1586 - 1594] 1318 [b2/1733 - 1736] 1319 [B2/1378-1380]专门针对吸烟风险开展执法行动或实地考察。 1320 [B2/1381-1383] 1321 [B2/1353-1366] 1322 [B2/1386-1387] 1323 [T10/51:31-33]

D3. 消防处未能监察消防处的关闭情况 (i) 消防栓/喉辘系统如何工作

  1. 宏福苑的每个区块都有一个 FH/HR 系统(消防栓和喉辘系统),包括:1076.1. 一个连接主供水系统的地面水塘(2,000 升);1076.2.消防上水泵,从 FS 中转水箱抽水至屋顶 FS 水箱; 1076.3.一个屋顶 FS 水箱(18,200 升),直接向每层的消防水管供水;和 1076.4。消防加压泵,确保整个建筑物有足够的水压。1325
  2. 如第 2 章所述,每个楼宇的 FS 泵房都有一个主电源开关(北向),同时控制 FH/HR 系统和

FAS(火警警报系统)的电源。将这个主开关切换到“OFF”将同时关闭两个系统。1326

1324 [T27/70:5-9] 1325 [B11/5628-5633] 1326 姜世明 WS§10.3 [WS1/138] 1327 姜世明 WS§10.3 [WS1/138] 1328 [t10 . 15:18 . 16:13] [au:]宏福苑没有这样的警告标签。如果是这样,置邦的工作人员或承建商可能会意识到,关闭主开关会使火灾报警器失效。

(ii) 电源总开关未正确关闭

  1. 火警后调查显示,在 8 座楼宇中,有 7 座楼宇的 FS 泵房总电源开关处于“OFF”位置。这意味着 FH/HR 系统和 FAS 都被停用。1329
  2. 第 2 章讲述 ISS 的电工罗国瑞先生是如何关闭总电源开关,而没有注意到这将使 FAS 失效, 从而协助排干 FS 水箱。罗先生并不是合格人员,亦没有资格操作总电源开关。
  3. 如果这项工作是由 RFSIC 进行或监督的,承建商就会知道使用泵隔离开关关闭 FH/HR 系统, 使 FAS 继续工作。助理局长姜伟强证实,罗先生的行为是一个低级错误。1330
  4. 消防处的《装置和设备检查、测试和维护工作守则》(2022 年版)(“2022 年工作守则”)附录

4 要求在同时控制火警警报系统的主开关附近贴上警告标签,说明:“警告:此开关同时控制火警警报系统电源”(见§3.8.2)。1331

  1. 消防处的立场是,2022 年工作守则下的标签要求不适用于宏福苑。1332

然而,2022 年业务守则第 1.14 条区分了:(i)“金融服务设施的提供和规范”(遵循建筑图则首次提交时有效的业务守则);及(ii)“检查、测试及维修”(遵循现行实务守则)。由于标签要求出现在附录 4 中,并且与维护和检查有关,根据 2022 年操作规范的一种解释,它应适 用于所有建筑物,无论其年龄如何。 1333

无论正确的法律立场是什么,消防处承认,一个警告标签可以减少不合格人员意外关闭总电源开关的机会。1334

在这种情况下,消防处应发出更明确的指引,要求所有楼宇,不论楼龄,均须贴上警告标签, 而楼宇内的消防/消防及消防系统均由单一电源开关控制。

1329 姜世明 WS§10.3 [WS1/138] 1330 [T10/10:24-26] 1331 [B2/919] 1332 [T10/78:36-79:4] 1333 [B2/883] 1334 [T10/79:5-13]

(iii) SDN 系统-结构缺陷

  1. 关机通知(SDN)系统受第 1/2021 号通函管辖。其目的是确保消防处“在消防处消防系统关闭的情况下,及时得到通知,以便消防处各单位制定适当的应变计划,并建议业主/占用 人……在关闭期间采取额外的消防安全措施。”1335
  2. 然而,该系统仅仅是一个通知系统,而不是一个批准系统。1336 RFSIC 关闭或延长关闭不需要消防处的许可。RFSIC 对关闭负有最终责任。
  3. 该系统的结构缺陷包括:如果RFSIC 的 SDN 只表示 FH/HR 系统关闭,而FAS 也受到影响,那么 FSD 就不会知道。消防处的工作假设是,SDN 中未提及的系统仍可运作。1091.2.消防处并没有核实船舶安全中心所提供的关闭原因(例如 FS251 证书所载的水箱漏水)是否准确。宏福苑的风险评估访问不包括检查水箱。1091.3.SDN 扩展可以重复提交,每次 14 天,而无需 FSD 要求证明或证明修复 FSI 关闭的进展。
  4. 消防处处长杨仁坚的证据证实了 SDN 系统存在漏洞。他承认结构性地依赖 RFSIC 的自我报告 是有缺陷的。他承认,在 2026 年之前,消防处依靠提交 SDN 的 RFSIC 来判断是否有一个或两个系统受到影响。他证实,当一名同事在收到 SDN 后出席现场时,重点是替代措施(例如,是否放置了灭火器),而不是装置本身被关闭。政府现在也承认这些是监督机制的弱点。

1337 1338 1339

1335 [B2/1302] 1336 姜世明第 4 期WS§9 [WS8/1911] 1337 政府关闭§760 1097。在实践中,宏福苑的这些“风险评估”只涉及: 1338 [T19/41:3-4] 1339 [T19/33:9-11]

后,消防处可发出 FHAN、1340及(v)根据出席情况,消防处会检查受影响的系统,而不是依靠RFSIC。1341

  1. 重要的是,助理处长强赛明证实,将修订法例,把 SDN 制度由通知制度改为须经消防处事先批准才可关闭消防装置。1342

1095. 每次改革都解决了宏福苑工作时存在的缺陷。下面将讨论这些问题。

(iv) 消防处的实地风险评估探访不足

“现场风险评估”。1343

1097.1. 打电话给 RFSIC 询问情况;

1097.2. 拜访并向管理办公室递交一封标准的咨询信;和

1097.3. 检查灭火器是否放置在隔层。

性或断言关闭冯钰麟的原因(“StnO Fung”)对警方于 2025 年 4 月 8 日到访的回答如下:问: 你是否检查了大厦的 FSI?A:检查临时放置的灭火器。问:你是否检查了 FH/HR 系统的状态?有供水系统吗?A:没有检查。问:你检查火警了吗?它有效吗?A:没有检查。问: 你进入 FS 泵房了吗?答:不是。问:你知道主电源开关的状态吗?A:不知道。问:你知道 增压泵和火警共用一个总开关吗?A:不知道。问:管理处有提到火警关闭了吗?答:不是。问:你是否注意到任何张贴在显眼位置的关闭通知?A:我没注意到。” 1344 1340 [T19/45:33-46:5] 1341 [T19/41:21] 1342 [T10/19:1-4] 1343 [B2/2186];姜世明 WS§§6.3,8.3 [WS1/111, 120] 1344 [C3-1/1826]

然而,StnO Fung 在综合发牌、消防安全及检控系统(“LIFIPS”)中记录“FH/HR 系统的缺陷被发现与有关关闭通知上所述的相同”。1345但是什么都没有“发现”:StnO Fung 没有检查任何一个 FSIs,更没有检查缺陷,也没有进入 FS 泵房。他只是重复了RFSIC 的说法。

关于 2025 年 9 月 9 日的现场风险评估,吴振中向一名警官给出了相同的答案:他没有检查FH/HR 系统,没有检查火警,没有进入泵房,不知道主开关状态,不知道系统共用一个开关。然而他在 LIFIPS 中记录:“发现情况与 RFSIC 的描述相符。”1346应用了相同的公式。 1347

助理署长强赛明在 2025 年 9 月 9 日对现场风险评估的描述证实了视察的不足:1348“[T]除了随机抽样检查消防水带(www.辘)以确定灭火器作为备用手段是否到位外,没有检查任何 FSI。根据他获得的信息,该官员没有检查其他 FSI(包括 FAS),因为他当时没有理由落后或怀疑 他所得到的积极代表。”

这重复了 ICU 对 RCs 和 RIs 的监督中所看到的相同主题。消防处根据消防中心就关闭消防中 心的需要和原因所作的陈述。消防处没有独立核实这些说法,也没有评估是否真的需要关闭, 如果需要关闭多久。

消防处于 2025 年 10 月 19 日访问了宏福苑,这是一项基于风险的建筑物消防安全访问,与 sdn 严格无关

第 6 章讨论了 rfsic(主要是中华发展)如何利用 SDN 系统。消防处的回答是,它没有理由怀疑金融服务机构对金融服务机构状况的陈述。它没有理由怀疑,因为它从来没有怀疑过自己。不检查金融稳定机构所谓缺陷的现场评估永远不会发现任何值得质疑的地方。消防处的官员 从未被要求深入了解 RFSIC 所说的内容,并只从表面上看。

1345 [B2/1606]工作人员可以更好地掌握建筑物的状况。然而,在这次访问中,只对紧急车辆通道和消防栓进行了目视检查。消防处的值班人员证实,在这次访问期间,船员没有进入任何消防处泵房,不知道任何总电源开关的状态, 不知道消防系统的电气配置,也没有注意到张贴在显眼位置的任何关闭通知。[1563] [1561] [1562] 1346 [B2/1649] 1347 [C3-1/1805-1806] 1348 姜世明第 4 期WS§16 [WS8/1916]

根据 SDN 制度,现场评估是进行独立核查的唯一机会。消防处人员检查的是应急措施,特别是确保备用灭火器就位,以及处理发生火灾时与行动部署有关的事宜。1349未进行其他现场评估。他们从未核实的是关闭本身的必要性,哪些消防装置关闭了,是否需要关闭,关闭多长时间。 1350 (v)没有执行消防处政策所规定的时限

根据消防处第 1/2021 号通函,“不当、任意或故意拖延消防处工程”可能构成不当行为或疏忽, 须转介纪律委员会处理。1351

消防处自己的政策(DPI/IV/4.2.16)规定:1352 1107.1. 无合理理由,FH/HR 系统的关闭不得超过两个月(见§3.4.5(a))。1107.2.60 天未完成或未获得 FS251 证书后,消防处应考虑采取必要的执法行动(见§3.4.7)。1107.3.消防站应定期与业主、管理公司和 RFSIC 保持联系,以监测工程的进度(见§3.4.4)。

尽管如此,宏泰阁(E 座)的 FH/HR 系统从 2025 年 4 月 7 日起关闭,直到火灾发生当天, 连续提交了 17 个 sdn。在这七个月期间:1108.1. 消防处没有要求当局就长时间停工作出详细的书面解释;1108.2.消防处没有进行任何实地视察,以核实是否有需要继续关闭污水处 理厂;1108.3.消防处没有考虑采取执法行动,尽管 60 天期限已两次过去(不过,公平地说, 助理处长强赛明的证据是,只有在举报承办商有不当行为时,才会触发 60 天的规定);1353

  1. 4. LIFIPS 的记录显示,消防处只指出“需要 4 个月的时间来审查情况”,并于 2025 年 10 月 23

日将审查推迟一段时间;1354和

  1. 5. 中华发展直到 2025 年 10 月 3 日才提交了一份识别缺陷的 FS251 证书,距离第一个 SDN 提

交近 6 个月。1355

1349 [T10/41:17-25] 1350 [T10/42:23-25] 1351 [B2/1307] 1352 [B2/2189-2190] 1353 [T10/58:20]是不需要的。他最终承认,在开火前机制下,无论提交了多少 sdn,消防处都没有任何机制来跟进任何持续一年以下的关闭,这种情况是不令人满意的。[1574] [1573] 1354 [B2/1611]

(vi) FS251 证书处理-延迟和空白

检查消防装置,须在完成工作后 14 天内发出证明书,并将副本送交消防处。1358该证书称为 FS251 证书。

1112. 证据显示,消防处在处理 FS251 证书方面存在三大不足。

块的 FS251 证书,证明 FH/HR 系统处于正常工作状态。仅仅 7 天后,即 2025 年 4 月 7 日, 中华发展提交了一份 SDN,声明由于水箱泄漏,FH/HR 系统需要关闭。1359 1113.2. 消防处在几天内相继收到了这些文件,但并没有指出明显的差异。宏泰阁的 LIFIPS 记录显示 FS251 被记录为“FS251 审计” 1360

1355 [B2/1628] 1356 [T10/64:3-5] 1357 [T10/75:9-25] 1358 [B2/179] 1359 [B2/1612] 1360 [B2/1440-1441; 1483-1484; 1513-1514; 1578-1579; 1645-1646; 1670-1671; 1706-1707; 1769-1770]

漏水-直到 2025 年 10 月 3 日,即近六个月后才到达消防处。1361 1114.2. 姜志强承认,在这六个月期间,消防处没有人可以透过证书来确定故障的性质及是否严重。尽管如此,他的调查显示,消防处根本没有人为了 FS251 证书而追捕中华发展。委员会律师对他说,这是一个严重的问题:六个月过去了,甚至没有人注意到 FS251 证书不见了。江先生承认这个职位并不令人满意。1362

  1. 第三,消防处 FS251 证书的数据输入系统长期延迟:1115.1. 在一个例子中,由宏泰消防在

2023 年 12 月签署的 FS251 直到 2024 年 8 月 2 日才传真给消防处,这比本应在 14 天内提交 的证书晚了 8 个月。证书上的消防处自己的印章显示,消防处在 2024 年 11 月才处理过 FS251。1363

上述情况的实际后果是,法定要求消防服务中心在 14 天内提交 FS251 证书是没有意义的:消防处从未跟进延误的 FS251 证书,而当收到证书时,又花了几个月的时间来处理信息。姜锦洪承认,这些延误绝对令人不满意,延误的后果可能很严重。1364 D4. 结果是:人们没有注意到通道开口和失灵的火警

审查的证据表明,在消防处参加宏福苑的每一次活动中,无论是每次SDN 之后的现场风险评估,还是 2025 年 10 月 19 日基于风险的消防安全访问,都没有人员进入消防处泵房。没有人看到总电源开关。因此,消防处没有注意到最重要的 FSI 系统的禁用。保护 8 个被占用楼宇的火警警报器一直被悄无声息地关闭,直到火灾发生那天才停止。

如果消防处在 26 次检查中检查楼梯,它不可能错过工人通道口。消防处是监管火警的法定机构,其人员均为训练有素的消防员。正如容闳接受的那样,任何看到这些通道开口的官员都会立即意识到有些不对劲。1365

1361 [B2/1628] 1362 [T10/70:18-32, 71:8-15] 1363 [B2/1596]; [T10/53:20-54:7] 1364 [T10/54:1-13] 1365 [T17/21:27-30]

如果向消防处报告了这类空缺,根据消防处自己的指导方针,它们将在所有消防安全投诉中被列为最优先事项,即“在下列情况下发生的迫在眉睫的危险?

消防处与屋宇署的分工意味着,消防处将受保护楼梯视为屋宇署/ ICU 的职权范围。基于上述理由,该部门并没有免除消防处进行例行检查以发现火警隐患的责任。重叠警惕性是健全系统的一个特点,而消防处自己的转介模板(将“楼梯围板开口”列入转介给屋宇署的事项)预设了消防处人员会寻找这些问题。1366

结果是,根据《消防条例》负有主要责任查明和扑灭火警危险的部门,未能注意到至少两项危及生命的火警危险,即火警警报器失灵和切断逃生楼梯,而这两项都导致了宏福苑的灾难性生命损失。

此外,如果消防处人员在实地进行风险评估时调查储水池的状况,并进行查询,他们可能会发现,正如调查处和 ISS 所知,PC&E 的计划是先维修储水池,然后暂时将其用作淡水水池 (而住宅的淡水水池则在维修期间)。这一计划将进一步推迟 FH/HR 系统的恢复,显然是不适当的。消防救援用水和居民用水分开是一项基本要求。 1367 1368 D5. 宏福苑风险的可预见性

截至 2025 年 11 月,消防处已全面掌握宏福苑的火灾风险概况:1123.1. 8 栋 31 层住宅进行重大改造,大量使用竹子、棚网等可燃材料;1123.2.关于易燃发泡胶板窗户的多次投诉 (2024 年 9 月至 10 月);1123.3.关于工人在棚架上吸烟的多起投诉(2024 年 7 月至 2025年 11 月);1123.4.FH/HR 系统在多个区块关闭数月;1123.5.2025 年 10 月的华懋大厦火灾凸显了棚架火灾的风险;和 1123.6。消防处的应变计划承认有火警风险及供水有限。1369

大型生物燃料堆工程的火灾风险较高是大家的共识。正如主席所观察到的,而助理署长姜西明也同意,由于建筑地盘的火灾危险叠加在满是住户的建筑物上,因此在大型 BMR 工程期

1366 [B6/4469] 1367 [H1-3/6034] 1368 姜世明 5 号WS§29 [WS9/1946] 1369 [B2/2642-2649]

间的火灾风险接近最高。以主席和消防处所认识到的风险来衡量,消防处的 26 次出席根本 没有答案。 1370

苑: 1372 1126.1. 外墙上的可燃材料是导致火势迅速蔓延的主要原因(见§33.6);1126.2.消防队员没有意识到这些材料的可燃性,无法为这类火灾制定应急计划(见§33.9);和 1126.3。在建筑物翻新期间访问建筑物的工作人员没有接受过正确执行检查的培训(见§33.11)。

1370 [T10/51:31-33] 1371 [T27/9:22-25, 11:14-12:9] 1372 [A4/700-707] 1373 [T19/18:3-12] 1374 [T27/9:22-25, 11:14-12:9]

D6. 消防处火灾前的失误摘要

  1. 消防处在火灾前的失误是系统性的:1131.1. 自行限制职权范围:消防处自行限制其在减少火灾危险、处理建筑材料、建筑火灾危险和被动火灾装置方面的职责,只由屋宇署/屋宇组负责。结果是没有针对这些危险的定期检查。1131.2.投诉处理失败:在 2022 年至 2025 年 11

月期间,消防处至少收到 20 宗有关宏福苑的消防安全投诉和查询。有关发泡胶板的投诉被视为超出消防处的管辖范围而不予受理。对吸烟问题的处理前后不一,效率低下。火警梯的投诉并没有导致对楼梯的检查。没有一个投诉导致持续的执法行动。1131.3.SDN 系统故障: FSD 允许 FH/HR 系统在没有验证、执行或有意义的监督的情况下关闭数月。消防处的现场风险评估访问并没有核实所谓的 FSI 缺陷。消防处只是从字面上理解了中华发展这个词。 1131.4. 火警未被侦测到:消防处从未发现火警警报系统已被侦测到。根据消防处人员的陈述,他们在任何一次出勤时都没有进入消防处泵房。 1131.5. FS251 处理失败:数据输入的长期延迟和丢失的 FS251 证书的后续处理使得法定的 14 天提交要求毫无意义。

  1. 必须强调的是,上述提交的材料不是针对,也不暗示批评在宏福苑灭火的消防员。他们的勇气和自我牺牲精神,包括何鸿燊的勇气和自我牺牲精神,值得我们最深的敬意。相反,本节 的批评涉及火灾前的检查和执法系统,该系统使火灾危险积累起来,并促成了宏福苑的灾难。

E. 劳工处(LD) E1. 劳工处的角色及法定责任法定任务

劳工处负责管理和执行职业安全及健康法例,主要是《职业安全及健康条例》(第 509 章) 和《工厂及工业经营条例》(第 59 章)及其附属规例,包括《建筑地盘(安全)规例》(第 59I 章)。

宏福苑的装修工程属于法例意义上的建筑工程,属于劳工处的规管范围。劳工处收到工程开始通知书,并负责进行视察,以确保工人的安全。

LD 的执行权包括:1375 1135.1. 刑事诉讼;1135.2.发出暂停工程通知书(要求停止工程:第 509 章第 10 条);1135.3.发出改善通知书(要求在限期内进行整改:第 509 章第 9 条);和

1135.4。发出警告信和施工现场检查报告。

劳工处的内部议事规则编号 C-2(2023 年 11 月 13 日)按严重程度对情况进行分类:1376 1136.1. 第 1 组:可能立即造成死亡或严重人身伤害的危险工作:应发出暂停通知和起诉。 1377 1136.2. 第 2 组:可能造成严重人身伤害或严重火灾危险的违规行为:须立即检控及发出 改善通知书。1378 1136.3. 第三组:不太严重的违约:需要改进通知。第 4 组:通常不会引起迫在眉睫或严重风险的违规行为:只需发出警告。 (ii) LD 在宏福苑的检验

在整修期间,劳工处在宏福苑进行了 17 次检查。这些检查包括初始检查、正常检查(每 1-2 个月一次)、投诉调查和一次加强突击监督访问。 1379

所有的检查都是突击检查。1380林秀静女士证实,劳工处人员曾穿便衣出席,起初并未惊扰任何人,后来才在有需要时联络承建商的地盘代表。1381

1375 李万邦 WS§§12-14 [WS1/336] 1376 [D1/1724] 1377 [D1/1738] 1378 [D1/1739] 1379 林秀清 2nd WS§7 [WS13/2108] 1380 Lam Sau Ching 2nd WS§§5-6 [WS13/2107-2108];[T16/3:33-36]发现可燃物质或材料。劳工处的结论是,投诉是不合理的。[1607] 1381 [T16/4:7-15]

E2. 劳工处未能解决在棚架上吸烟的问题

(i)吸烟投诉的数量

  1. 劳工处在 2024 年 7 月至 2025 年 11 月期间收到九宗有关工人在宏福苑的棚架上吸烟的正式投诉。这些是 LD 汇总表上的第 5、8、11、22、24、26、31、33 和 39 条投诉。1382
  2. 本处收到的吸烟投诉包括:1140.1 宗。2024 年 7 月 20 日,一名匿名投诉建筑工人在工作期

间吸烟。申诉人提供了一名工人在棚架上吸烟的照片。劳工处于 2024 年 7 月 22 日进行了 检查,但没有发现工人在现场吸烟。没有发现烟头。否 1383 1384

  1. 2. 在 2024 年 8 月 1 日,有一个关于工人在竹棚架上吸烟的投诉。LD 警告了负责人。然而,

它得出的结论是,投诉是不合理的。 1385 1386

  1. 3. 在 2024 年 8 月 14 日,劳工处收到一份关于在竹棚架上吸烟的投诉。LD 警告了负责人。它

再次得出结论,认为投诉是不合理的。 1387 1388

  1. 4. 在 2024 年 9 月 6 日,1389劳工处收到一宗有关吸烟的投诉,并有多次跟进查询。劳工处作

了若干实质性答复。投诉再次被认定为不合理。 1390

  1. 5. 在 2024 年 10 月 19 日,劳工处收到一份关于发泡胶板、工人吸烟和在建筑工地留下烟头以

及工人在没有安全带和头盔的情况下进行工作的投诉。劳工处答复说,申诉无法成立。1391 1392

  1. 6. 2025 年 2 月 24 日,1393有一个关于工人在建筑工地吸烟和在没有安全装置的情况下工作的投诉

1382 [D1/896-905] 1383 [D1/925–930] 1384 [D1/928] 1385 [d1/965 - 967] 1386 [D1/1455] 1387 [d1/987 - 992] 1388 [D1/1455] 1389 [D1/1026-1046]头盔。劳工处表示,在突击检查后,投诉无法成立。[1617] 1390 [D1/1461-1470] 1391 [D1/1497-1502] 1392 [D1/1120-1126]

  1. 7. 2025 年 4 月 30 日,有关于工人在建筑工地吸烟、不系安全带施工以及涉嫌非法工人的投

诉。劳工处再次指出,申诉无法成立。1394 1395

  1. 8. 一九 2025 年十一月十二日,即火灾发生前两星期,劳工处接获一宗有关工人在工地吸烟的

投诉。劳工处说,检查后申诉无法成立。1396 1397

(ii) 每宗被认为“不合理”的吸烟投诉

  1. 尽管在 16 个月内收到了这些吸烟投诉,其中至少有一个案例有工人在棚架上吸烟的照片证

据支持,劳工处在每个案例中都得出结论,认为投诉“不合理”。 1398

林秀清女士作证说,这一结论意味着劳工处人员在巡视时并没有亲眼目睹吸烟,也没有在巡视时发现吸烟的证据。1399

委员会听取了居民的大量证据,并看到了多张照片、视频和 WhatsApp 消息,证实在宏福苑的棚架上吸烟是一个普遍和持久的问题(见第 4 章)。劳工处一再认为投诉“不合理”,这与实际情况完全相反。 (iii) 劳工处的执法方法在实践上不可行

劳工处的执法方法要求警务人员在突访期间亲眼目睹工人吸烟。这实际上是不可能的,因为: 工人看到不熟悉的人接近时,会立即熄灭香烟;1145.2.当 LD 人员进入现场时,工人们可以很容易地互相提醒;1145.3.劳工处人员穿着便衣出席,但只限于地面观察;和 1145.4。访问的时间必然是有限的。

劳工处的李文邦先生证实,劳工处从未就宏福苑的吸烟问题采取执法行动。只发出了警告信。 1400

1393 [D1/1308-1310] 1394 [d1/1535-1539] 1143。她同意,“不正当”并不意味着没有在棚架上吸烟。[1624] 1395 [d1/1345 - 1351] 1396 [D1/1548] 1397 [D1/1409-1413] 1398 [D1/928] 1399 [T16/6:34-7:2]

(iv) 劳工处未能使用现有权力

  1. 根据《建筑地盘(安全)规例》(第 59I 章)第 53 条:1401“凡在任何建筑地盘使用或拟使用专员认为有火警危险的任何易燃液体或含有任何该等液体或物质或物品的任何混合物,专员可藉书面命令禁止在该建筑地盘吸烟及使用无灯。”
  2. 李文邦的立场是,发布禁烟令“相当罕见”,因为它要求现场存在易燃物质。他认为发泡胶板

不是第 53 条意义上涉及火灾危险的物质或事物。 1402

正如上文所述,消防处助理处长姜世明同意主席的意见,即大型堆燃炉工程的火警风险已接近最高水平。宏福苑的外墙覆盖着竹棚架,网,木板,纸板和发泡胶板,所有可燃材料,如果被烟头点燃,会维持和加速火灾。 1403

劳工处对规例第 53 条的狭义解释,要求使用易燃液体,而不承认更广泛的类别“…涉及火灾危险的物质或物品”,这是不适当的限制,未能解决实际出现的明显火灾风险。

即使没有禁烟令,劳工处也可以根据《职业安全及健康条例》(第 509 章)第 6(d)(i)条进行执法。根据该条,雇主有责任在合理可行的范围内,保持工作场所处于安全和不危害健康的状况。在被可燃材料包围的棚架上持续吸烟显然涉及这一义务。 1404 即将修订的立法

袁子乐先生确认劳工处正计划修订以下法例:14051152.1. 修订《吸烟(公众卫生)条例》(第 371 章),指定建筑地盘为禁烟区;1152.2.修订《定额罚款(吸烟罪行)条例》(第 600 章),规定 3,000 元定额罚款;和 1152.3。修订《建筑地盘(安全)规例》(第 59I 章)第 56 条, 规定承建商须采取一切合理措施,确保工地内不吸烟。

1400 [T16/37:27-34] 1401 [D1/186] 1402 李文邦 WS§44 [WS1/347] 1403 [T10/51:31-33] 1404 [D1/19] 2024 年 11 月 11 日,劳工处写信给 ICU,退回了投诉,只注意到它已经解决的棚架问题。发泡胶板火灾隐患被送回 ICU, LD 没有提供任何意见或建议。[1633] 1405 [T16/54-55]

然而,有人担心,如果劳工处的立场仍然是必须让劳工处人员观察吸烟情况,才有理由采取执法行动,法例修订将面临同样的实际执法困难。需要考虑其他证明侵权的措施,包括接受居民提供的照片和视频证据,以及使用无人机。 E3. LD 未能解决发泡胶板火灾隐患

当 2024 年 10 月的投诉特别提出了发泡胶板的可燃性作为一个关注,1406的 LD 的反应是只调查棚架的安全问题。它根本没有解决发泡胶板问题。1407

林秀清女士证实,发泡胶板并非屋宇署检查的重点,因为建筑材料不在该署的监察范围内。 1408

然而,在工人每天操作的棚架附近的外墙上使用发泡胶板对工人本身构成了火灾风险。LD 认为建筑材料不在其范围内的立场也与其《竹棚架安全操作规范》不一致,该规范要求棚网符合阻燃标准。如果 LD 负责确保棚网是阻燃以保护工作者,那么相同的逻辑应该应用于发泡胶板。 E4. LD 未能验证棚网阻燃性

(i)劳工处的做法:不经核实的证书

  1. 就棚网而言,劳工处监督其阻燃性的方法仅限于要求承建商提供阻燃证书。李文邦先生确认:

1409 1157.1. 劳工处如察觉有火警危险或接获有关棚架有火警危险的投诉,便会要求劳工处提供证明书;1157.2.如承建商未能提供证明书,劳工处会将个案转介审裁处或屋宇署;1157.3. 劳工处不会核实证书的内容或真伪,因为“由于缺乏这方面的专业知识,oso 核实或核实证书真伪的能力受到限制。”

1406 [D1/1120-1126] 1407 [T16/14:33-35; 15:1-2] 1408 [T16/17:3-5] 1409 李文邦 WS§§28-30 [WS1/341-342]

2024 年 7 月,LD 向PC&E 要求并收到了阻燃证书和交货单。该证书与ICU 现在认为是伪造的日期为 2024 年 1 月 8 日的证书相同。 1410 2025 年 11 月的证书-重新提交相同的文件

2025 年 11 月 20 日(火灾发生前六天),在台风破坏和更换棚网之后,劳工处要求为更换棚网签发新的证书。1411

PC&E 提供的证书实际上与 16 个月前的 2024 年 7 月提供的证书相同。该证书不可能证明 2025 年年底采购的替换网:见上文第 B8(vi)节。 1412

林秀清女士承认,她和同事都没有注意到这是同一份证书,并表示她只关注考试结果。政府 承认,没有注意到同一证书是一个有待改进的地方。1413 1414

此外,劳工处并没有要求新一批棚网的送货单。没有办法将证书连接到实际使用的网络。

(iii)林女士对一名居民的答复

  1. 2024 年 10 月 4 日,张灼华分 Ching 批准回复询问居民棚网阻燃:1415“根据现时劳工处所执行适用于建筑地盘的安全条例中,并没有涵盖于棚网或任何物料的阻燃标准。此外,根据本处人员对该地盘视察所得,该维修工程并不需要在竹棚架上进行热工序、 使用火或易燃物品等等,而地盘内亦有提供合适的灭火设施。 根据LD 适用的建筑工地安全规定,棚网或任何材料都没有阻燃标准。此外,维修工程不需要进行高温工程,也不需要在棚架上使用火或易燃物品,工地亦设有适当的灭火设施。因此,棚网火灾的风险相对较低。)
  2. 这个答复是不准确的。如林秀清女士在取证听证会: 14161164.1 确认。第 4 版操作规范(当时生效)确实要求所有棚架防护屏由阻燃材料制成。这一要求不仅适用于防水油布。1164.2.

1410 [d1 /1599- 1600,1604] 1411 林秀清 WS 第 83 条[WS1/379] 1412 [D1/1685-1686] 1413 政府结案§543 1414 [T16/21:20-24] 1415 [D1/1462] 1416 [T16/27:15-16; 28:1-8]

第五版(2024 年 10 月 19 日生效)将使这一点更加明确。1164.3.自 2024 年 7 月以来,LD 一直在向PC&E 申请阻燃证书。这与告诉居民没有适用的标准是不一致的。 1417 1164.4. 鉴于随后发生的事件,有关火灾风险“相对较低”的说法显然是错误的。

E5. LD 无法解决工人通道口

  1. 《建筑工地(安全)规例》(第 59I 章)第 54 条规定:1419“(1)负责建筑工地的承建商须在发生火灾时保持所有逃生途径及在该建筑工地提供的所有消防器具处于良好状态和不受阻 碍……(2)任何人不得故意改变、损坏、阻碍或以其他方式损害任何该逃生途径或消防器具。”
  2. 李文邦先生的立场是,第 54 条只适用于无人居住的建筑地盘(例如兴建中的新楼宇)。对于正在进行翻新的被占用楼宇,劳工处认为安全通道的完整性应由屋宇署或消防处负责。1420
  3. 这一区别在第 54 条的案文中没有根据,它适用于没有资格的“建筑工地”。宏福苑在翻修工程期间属于“建筑工地”,劳工处对该工地的其他安全事宜行使管辖权时已证实这一点。
  4. 此外,工人自己也需要使用楼梯。工人通道的开口损害了工人(而不仅仅是居民)在紧急情况下疏散通道的消防安全。火灾发生时,两名工人姚顺攸和黄祖莲被困在屋顶上,因为楼梯被浓烟笼罩,无法逃生。1421
  5. 袁永明甚至表示,劳工处并不反对建立工人通道口的做法,认为它们具有合法的职业安全目的(允许工人避免广泛攀爬棚架)。然而,他证实,决定在哪里以及如何创造开口需要适当的风险评估,并咨询顾问或相关政府部门。1422 1423

1417 [D1/654] 1418 [T16/28:1-2] 1419 [D1/186] 1420 李曼邦 WS§§49-50 [WS1/348-349];(T16/46:1-12) 1421 [T4/53:23-26] 1422 [T16/58:10-22] 1423 [T16/58:6-22]

其他证据证实,楼梯通道口远非不可或缺。屋宇署在火警后发现,在其他约 400 幢进行大修 的楼宇中,只有 8 幢设有出入口。对于这些维修工程的绝大部分,工人们能够从屋顶和领奖台上到达棚架。的确,在宏福苑,工人们最初是从屋顶上下来的棚架。在房屋署的作品中, 贡多拉是分阶段使用的,公共区域的可打开窗户也起到了同样的作用。1424 1425 1426

尽管在宏福苑进行了 17 次检查,但劳工处官员从未检查过楼梯的消防安全问题,也从未注意到工人通道口,更不用说评估这些开口是否危及逃生途径。 E6. 跨部门推荐

劳工处对宏福苑投诉的处理显示了一个令人担忧的模式,即劳工处将与火灾有关的问题提交 给其他部门,而没有确保这些问题得到实际解决:1173.1. 吸烟:劳工处于 2024 年七月二十二日将吸烟投诉转介消防处。FSD 拒绝了它,因为它不在其管辖范围内。这两个部门都没有有效地处理投诉。1173.2.发泡胶板:2024 年 10 月关于发泡胶板的投诉部分涉及到 ICU 的棚网问题。1427 发泡胶板问题本身没有被 LD 解决,并且(如上所述)ICU 没有充分调查。1173.3.棚网:劳工处在 2024 年 11 月给独立审查组(ICU)的备忘录中指出,棚网阻燃性引 发了公共安全问题,超出了劳工处的工人安全任务,建议独立审查组(ICU)采取平行行动。 1428但是,LD 没有跟进确认 ICU 采取了行动。 1429

结果是,宏福苑的消防安全问题在部门之间的裂缝中被忽视了。劳工处只处理个别工人的职安健事宜,但对同样影响工人的与火灾有关的危险概不负责。

1424 [T23/21:9-12] 1425 [T20/26:13-26] 1426 [T13/28:12-18] 1427 [D1/1162] 1428 [D1/1162] 1429 [D1/930]

E7. LD 点火前故障总结

  1. LD 的故障总结如下:1175.1. 禁烟执法失败:虽然在 16 个月内有 9 宗投诉,但每宗投诉均不合理。劳工处的执法方法要求警务人员亲自目睹吸烟,这实际上是行不通的,并没有有效地执法,而这种做法很可能是导致火灾的原因。
  2. 2. 未能使用禁烟令权力:劳工处对第 53 条的解释过于狭隘,拒绝承认棚架上大量可燃材料构成有火灾危险的物质或物品。结果是劳工处并没有发出禁烟令。
  3. 3. 棚网证书失败:LD 要求证书但无法验证,不知情的接受了两次相同的证书,没有要求更换网的交货文件。
  4. 4. 对居民的不准确答复:LD 告诉居民棚网没有阻燃标准——即使在第 4 版业务规范下,这一声明也是不准确的,与 LD 自己请求证书的做法不一致。
  1. 6. 工人通道打开失败:LD 没有检查逃生楼梯,没有检测到工人通道口,并采取了不合理的法

律立场,认为法规 54 不适用于已占用的建筑物。尽管事实上,通道开口损害了楼梯的可持续性,工人可以使用楼梯在发生火灾时逃生。 1175.7. 部门间的失职:劳工处将与火灾有关的事宜转介其他部门处理,而没有跟进,造成监管真空,导致火灾隐患未得到解决。

  1. 总而言之,如果民航局更有力地行使其权力,它本可以为防止或减轻这场灾难作出贡献。

F. 警方

警方在规管建筑工程、消防装置或消防安全方面没有法定角色。在这些提交的文件中审查的火灾前监管失败- 工人通道口, 发泡胶板, 棚网,失效的火警警报系统,在棚架上吸烟-都不属于警方的职权范围。

警方的作用仅在于火灾当天的紧急反应,这一点已在上文第 5 章中加以审查。

在那里进行的调查显示,证据表明,火灾现场的责任分工是很容易理解的。消防处主要负责 灭火和救援,警方则协助疏散附近居民。警方亦设有伤亡查询组及罹难者身份查证组。 1430

关于疏散问题,我们已经注意到,是否有更多的警察人员被指示疏散尚未受影响的楼宇,例如,在下午 3:30 至 4:30 之间的一个小时窗口,当时宏新阁(C 座)和宏道阁(B 座)可能 已经完全疏散。主席问,鉴于这些楼宇容易成为火场,警察是否应该进入这些楼宇进行疏散。1431 1181。更广泛的问题是,应对措施是否可以更快地从尚未受影响的楼宇疏散更多的居民, 这在很大程度上是消防处的业务问题。 1432

G. 证据提及的其他政府部门

G1. 民政事务总署 (HAD)

  1. 民政事务总署负责制订有关楼宇及物业管理的政策,并协助业主及业主立案法团履行管理责任。易志宏确认其角色是建筑和物业管理政策,1433和民政事务总署的角色是协助和协调业主进行楼宇管理工作。1434
  2. 民政事务总署并非消防安全监管机构。它在火灾前与宏福苑的直接关系涉及建筑管理治理, 而不是消防安全。这些管理和采购事项不属于本章的消防安全范围,这里不再讨论。

G2. 市区重建局 (URA)

1430 [T11/12:20-21] 1431 [T18/37:27-28] 1432 [T18/26:23-25] 1433 [T24/1:17] 1434 [T24/11:29-30] 1435 [T21/34:27-28; 38:9]

1186. 因此,市建局对宏福苑的消防安全没有规管责任。

G3. 结论

  1. 因此,委员会请委员会发现,在委员会辖下的政府机构中,消防安全失误的责任在于屋宇署、消防处和劳工处(就职业火警风险而言)。

第 8 章消防安全事宜建议

A. 引言

在调查取证听证会期间,委员会审查了围绕宏福苑火灾的情况:其起因、其迅速和破坏性的发展,以及消防处和其他应急人员在随后的几分钟和几小时内采取的行动。委员会还审议了在高层建筑火灾方面向一线官员提供的培训是否足够;识别、评估和升级被占用建筑物的消防安全风险的系统;以及业主、承建商和公共当局履行各自责任的监管框架。

虽然委员会的职权范围是针对单一事件,但证据表明,系统缺陷和监管失误对多层建筑中居民的安全具有更广泛的意义。

核心参与者、专家证人和专业机构提出了大量建议。他们的建议范围广泛,从有针对性的运营改革到高层住宅的监管、审批和管理方面的更多结构性改革。正如在这类问题上经常发生的那样,所表达的观点远非一致。 1436

我们审议了所有这些建议,但本委员会提出的任何建议必须完全以事实为依据

因此,下文的建议完全以所听取的证据和职权范围所涵盖的问题为依据。它们并不打算预测可能在其他论坛上出现的进一步证据,也不试图解决没有经过详细审查的问题。在确定现阶段应该适当推荐的措施时,这些提交的意见集中在能够对高层建筑中居民的安全做出有意义和直接贡献的措施上。

在考虑改善高层建筑的消防安全时,必须牢牢地考虑到某些现实情况。在宏福苑看到的这种火灾是罕见的,但在外部工程中增加使用可燃材料,现代建筑系统的复杂性,以及在被占用的建筑物中普遍进行翻新活动,都引入了新的风险载体。加强监管,对材料进行更严格的测

1436 其中包括政府的改善措施表、九名宏福苑居民于 2026 年 6 月 15 日提交的改善建议(“居民建议”),以及香港测 量师学会于 2026 年 6 月 30 日发出的建议(“香港测量师学会建议”)。我们也考虑了有关各方在其结案陈词中提出的建议。有证据证明,他们有能力赢得在该领域有实际经验的人的信任。

试和认证,并明确业主、承建商和监管机构之间的责任界限,对于减轻这些风险至关重要。以下建议旨在确保负责高层建筑的设计、审批、管理和应急响应的人员能够满足这一要求。

  1. 我们的以下建议分为两类:需要立即实施的建议和需要考虑的较长期结构改革建议。这一结构旨在帮助决策者优先考虑能够迅速带来安全效益的措施,同时为更全面的改革奠定基础。

B. 即时实施建议 1437

B1. 立即禁止在高风险场地进行易燃临时工程

在高层建筑的翻新中,承建商通常会将整个建筑包裹在棚网和帆布中,以防止掉落的灰尘和碎片。正如第四章所分析的,当这些临时工程由可燃材料制成时,它们形成了一个连续的垂直燃料源。如果在栅栏上着火,网和画布就会剧烈燃烧并融化,产生“燃烧的液滴”——一种向下倾泻的液体火雨,点燃较低海拔地区,困住居民。1438

这种机制是宏福苑快速垂直蔓延的核心。可燃物棚网和帆布极大地加速了火势的向上蔓延。专家们一致认为,如果使用了阻燃网和帆布,最初的火灾可能会自行熄灭,而不会垂直蔓延。相反,高温触发了热解,使结构性的竹棚架成为大规模的燃料源。1439 1440

同样,有证据表明,用于覆盖居民窗户的高度易燃的发泡胶板是火灾从一层蔓延到另一层的 重要因素。这些发泡胶板在受到冲击时迅速熔化并从玻璃板上脱落 1441

因此,我们建议立即禁止:1198.1. 使用可燃临时材料(如非阻燃棚网、塑料布和发泡胶板) 在可重新进入的空间内或附近。通过禁止在邻近区域使用这些材料,燃料的连续路径被打破。

1437 这些立即提出的建议是暂时的,对于目前正在使用和正在维修的建筑物来说是“格外谨慎”的保障措施。他们是有意保护的,在安全方面犯了错误。正如专家们所解释的那样,一旦政府进行了彻底的公众咨询并设计了量身定制的长期措施,这些严格的临时措施可以在适当情况下逐步放宽:[T27/52:12-53:3, 61:17-62:5]。 1438 袁教授最终专家报告§2.13.3 [ER2-2/1250];IC 专家报告§3.6.8 [ER3/2181-2182] 1439 IFITF 最终报告§6.2.1.11 [ER1/82];IC 专家报告§§3.6.7-3.6.9,3.6.19-3.6.23,3.8.4-3.8.5 [ER3/2181-2183, 2186-2187, 2200, 2245];(T27/59:17-60:3) 1440 袁教授最终专家报告§2.13.3 [ER2-2/1250];[T26/19:18-24];[t27 /62:6-63: 9,86:5-10]强烈的加热。木板一旦脱落, 就会将持续的火焰传播到其他可燃物上。[1668] 1441 [T27/86:11-87:17]

1442 1198.2. 在紧急情况下,在地面出口上方储存易燃临时材料、木板或结构棚架材料,以防 止掉落的碎片困住居民或阻挡消防员。1443 1198.3. 可燃材料(如发泡胶板)在窗户和外墙上的使用。

  1. 这些建议的目的是防止火灾有一个容易的、不间断的易燃材料传播的路径-无论是在建筑物之间,出口上方,还是穿过窗户和墙壁-以便居民有时间逃离,消防员可以安全地履行职责。
  2. 令人鼓舞的是,自火灾发生以来,屋宇署和屋宇署已展开突击检查,检查外墙和窗户是否贴有发泡胶板等可燃材料。现要求 RIs 和 rc 严格“禁止将可燃材料(如发泡胶板)粘贴到外墙和

B2. 立即禁止进入

  1. 为了方便工人在混凝土楼梯和竹棚架之间移动,宏福苑的承建商每隔五层拆除楼梯窗户,创建临时开口,通常称为通道开口。然后用薄木板和铝板覆盖这些开口,这些材料没有有效的防火性能。
  2. 这些通道的开放对悲剧规模的贡献是无可争议的。正如第 4 章所分析的那样,证据表明,在临时板烧毁之前很久,烟雾就已经从缝隙中渗透进来了,1444,而适当的防火窗户即使在重新进入的火灾超过 1000°C 时也能保持内部温度。由于铝板和木板失效,烟雾迅速渗透,减少了居民安全疏散的时间。 1445
  3. 因此,我们建议立即禁止在所有逃生途径使用通道开口,包括楼梯和电梯大厅。此外,逃生途径上的所有窗口都应该安装

1442 IC 专家报告§7.3.1(e) [ER3/2253]。正如专家在听证会上澄清的那样,如果棚架完全远离凹入位,则可能没有必要在所有棚架上完全禁止可燃物。一旦在每个项目的基础上建立了标准化的、科学的风险评估框架,如果热力学模拟 证明烟囱效应风险得到控制,承建商就可以被允许使用经过认证的阻燃材料:[t27 /31:3- 16,60:22-62: 5,75:11-21]。 窗口”。这些来自于商务部 2026 年 3 月的通告,[1672]明确禁止在外墙或窗户上使用此类材料。我们进一步了解到, 政府一直在检讨《建筑物条例》(第 123 章),直接在法例中订立订明的物料安全标准,把不遵守规定列为刑事罪行;我们同意这样的审查是必要的,并支持设立这一罪行。[1673] [1671] 1443 [T27/54:2-9] 1444 袁教授最终专家报告§§2.6.6-2.6.7 [ER2-2/1190-1191];IC 专家报告§6.5.1 [ER3/2246-2247] 1445 IFITF 最终报告§10.6.2.3 [ER1/230]

与此相关的是,我们注意到一些较旧的建筑物保留了带有上部通风板的楼梯窗户,这些窗户可以打开,以及带有可打开窗户的电梯大堂。我们建议,如果存在类似的设计,应发出临时警告,以保持这些窗口关闭,从长远来看,应进行审查,以确定是否应该用密封的防火窗取代它们。 B3. 立即实施分阶段维修多幢楼宇的外墙

我们同意政府的建议,即对于涉及法院一幢以上建筑物的大规模翻修,“所有外墙的修复都必须分阶段进行”。1446

通过要求承建商分阶段修复房产,承建商可以避免将多个住宅楼宇包裹在一个由可燃棚架和 塑料网组成的单一连续外壳中(这在任何情况下都应被禁止:见上文第 1198 条)。这种结构限制了任何潜在的火灾蔓延到一个孤立的楼宇。

C. 长期及系统性政策改革建议

C1. 建筑材料的防火安全测试和认证

  1. 委员会收到的明确证据表明,在火灾发生前的一段时间内,建筑控制系统基本上是在被动的、基于文件的合规模式下运作的。ICU 和 LD 检查员严重依赖承建商提交的测试证书,没有独立的验证。PC&E 反过来又通过提供可疑的证书(ICU 未能核实)和操纵现场轻型测试来误导两个部门。有证据表明,监管过程假设诚实,却招致剥削。
  2. 现场测试的方式也存在严重缺陷。正如我们所看到的,ICU 的视察员试图进行非正式的“快速测试”,使用手持打火机燃烧小片网。这个过程本质上是不科学的,很容易被操纵。当样品点燃十秒钟后不合格时,承建商只需将检查人员引导到另一个阻燃的地点进行“重新测试”, 然后接受测试。显而易见的是,这种测试不能提供可靠的防火性能指示,并造成一种虚假的保证感。

1446 政府改善措施表§B3(v)。另见第 56-57 页《香港科学学会建议》,其中强调“步步为营,步步为营”原则,并建议分阶段完成非紧急工程。

(包括塑料布,防水油布和踢脚板)都要经过与棚网同样严格的测试和认证标准。这与政府的建议是一致的。1447 1210.3. 禁止使用现场打火机测试作为符合防火性能标准的证据。这些测试是武断的,容易被操纵, 并可能造成一种危险的顺从幻觉。消防性能的核实必须完全依靠认可实验所认可计划的实验 室测试。

1447 政府改进措施表§E2 不诚实的承建商可能能够将数字标签从符合要求的材料转移到不符合要求的替代品上。在这种情况下,政府应考虑采取哪些进一步的保障措施,以确保在实验室测试的材料与最终安装在工厂上的材料相同。1448 [J1-2/6200]。另见政府结案文件§§544-548,了解各公共机构如何实施 PNRC 85 的要求。 1449 政府改善措施表§C1 1450 [J1-2/6202]。另见余泽生 WS§55(d) [WS1/830]

  1. 3. 此外,PNRC 85 目前要求建署在进行随机现场审核之前,最多提前三个工作日通知承建商, 因为建署依靠承建商自己的棚架来攀爬和切割样品。这个通知期为承建商提供了三天的机会, 用符合要求的棚网替换不合格的棚网。 1451
  2. 4. 为确保突击检查的完整性,政府可考虑保留独立的支架队。理想情况下,BD 和 ICU 的检查员应该能够在没有通知的情况下进入任何地点,立即登上棚架,并在现场随机取样。尽管防火性能的科学测定最终必须在受控的实验室条件下进行(如上所述),但未经通知的现场选择可以确保所测试的材料是实际用于建筑立面的材料。

C2. 竹和塑料网:在适当的情况下可能过渡到不燃材料

  1. 传统的竹网和可燃塑料网相对便宜且适应性强。但有证据表明,宏福苑的 farade 火灾产生的热量引发了竹棚架的热解,有效地将整个外包壳转变为垂直燃料源。一旦热解开始,棚架结构本身对火灾的强度和向上蔓延起了重要作用。
  2. 委员会将认识到,减少对竹棚架的依赖的问题是复杂的,在某些方面是有争议的。彻底的禁令将带来严重的财政和后勤后果。在某些情况下,竹子仍然是实用的、安全的,甚至是必要的——例如,较小规模的工程或位于狭窄街道上的场地,无法部署金属系统。因此,任何可能的过渡都需要一种平衡的、以证据为基础的方法。 1452
  3. 因此,我们建议探索(并可能资助和补贴)从传统的竹棚架和可燃塑料包装的潜在过渡。这 可能包括,在适当的情况下,更多地使用金属棚架系统来代替竹棚架,以及用防火玻璃纤维 网、不锈钢网包或阻燃防水油布取代可燃塑料网或包。政府应与行业利益相关者建立一个战 略工作组,研究、发展和支持这一潜在的长期过渡。委员会将注意到,发展局和建造业议会 已开始就“从竹棚架过渡到金属棚架的路线图”进行正式讨论,在结构和后勤方面都是适当的。

1453 1454

1451 见《注册承建商(PNRC) 85 作业备考中棚架防护材料检验暂行指南》§2.4 [I3/9891];余泽生 2 .7 [WS14/2176]。 1452 参见 Bernadette Linn 女士在 2025 年 11 月 27 日的新闻稿[J1-3/7840]和 Yue Chak Sang WS§§58-61 [WS1/831-832] 中的评论摘要。 1453 政府改善措施表§G2

C3. 消防安全系统和 sdn

  1. 暂停使用通知书是由消防装置中心向消防处递交的正式通知书,说明建筑物的消防装置将暂时停止使用以进行维修。它旨在成为一种行政保障:一种使

消防处会在建筑物的消防系统失效时收到警报。

关闭期限应严格限制在 60 天以内,并须说明原因,并经消防处审查。这将法律从被动通知模式转变为严格的开工前批准制度,并规定了建筑物的 fsi 在进行维修期间可以保持不工作的最长时间。1456 1219.2. 制定新的法律,惩罚那些为并非亲自执行或直接监督的作品提交 SDN 或签署 FS251 证书的 RFSIC。 1454 根据 IC 专家的建议:[ER6/2746]。 1455 关于关闭消防装置的现场风险评估的建议将在下文进一步阐述。 1456 参见 Keung Sai Ming 4th WS§25 [WS8/1919]。也参见[B14/6272];政府关门§§771- 772,981

  1. 3. 根据政府在其建议中提出的有益建议,在法定的“财务服务责任人”制度下,为管理公司引入管理刑事责任。pmc 应承担直接的、不可委托的责任,协调现场安全,特别是确保 fsi

(包括 FAS)在整个重大翻新工程期间保持全面运作。 1457

  1. 4. 强制所有高层 FSI 泵房的防篡改密封。在正常情况下,主电源开关应使用序列化的绿色防篡改封条锁定在“ON”位置。如果密封破裂,就会露出一个白色的“VOID”指示器。法律应规定 管委会大厦服务员在每日巡逻时检查封条,并在两小时内向消防处和管委会报告任何违规情况。我们注意到消防处已通过第 1/2026 号通告实施了类似的措施。1458
  2. 5. 要求在 FSI 电气面板上刻制醒目的红色警告标签。证据表明,宏福苑的开关没有警告,它们也控制着火警警报系统,并且存在不确定性(特别是在宏泰消防方面),关于包含此类要求的 2022 年操作规范1459是否适用于像宏福苑这样的 80 年代庄园。需要澄清。所有类似年份的建筑物都应加装双语警告:“警告:此开关也控制火警警报系统的电源供应。”在进行常规泵/罐维护时不要关闭。” 1460
  3. 6. 发出消防处通告,规定在泵液位隔离足够的情况下,RFSIC 允许或执行主电源关闭属于违纪行为。
  4. 7. 将《消防(装置及设备)规例》(第 95B 章)第 8 条的罚则提高至 50 万元及监禁 12 个月, 违例人士如擅自关闭或更改建筑物的主要消防系统。目前的第五级罚款(港币五万元)很难起到足够的震慑作用,特别是对大型承建商而言。1461
  5. 我们还支持政府提出的立法修正案,以提高不合规行为的法律和财务风险:1462

1457 政府改善措施表§A1. 又见姜世明第四届 WS§25 [WS8/1919];《消防条例(第 95 章)及其相关附属法例建议修订谘询文件》(二零二六年五月)(“谘询文件”)§§34-35 [B14/6287-6288]。另见《政府结案》第 774.4、981 条; [B14/6275]。 1458 [C3-1/1979] 1459 参见[B2/919/§3.8.2] 1460 [T6/51:25-52:11];1220.1 [T10/21:1-22:16]。将发出虚假或具误导性的 FS251 证书的最高刑罚由港币 50,000 元提高至港币 3,000,000 元及监禁三年。 1461 助理局长姜世明在口头作证时承认这一点:[T10/11:16-31]。 1462 政府改善措施表§A10(iii)-(v);谘询文件§§19,34- 35,43 (b) [B14/6278, 6287-6288, 6295]

  1. 2. 执行有关董事、获授权签署人及合资格人士在其同意、纵容、疏忽或不作为下触犯金融安

全罪行时,须负个人责任的条文。参见上文第 1219.3 条。

1220.3. 取消永久牌照,改为须经警方和廉署严格审核的强制性五年续期牌照。

1463 政府改善措施表§A8;谘询文件第 11 条[B14/6273-6274] 1464 政府改善措施表§A9;政府关门§§761,960,981

将清单与 FS251 证书交叉引用。这一差异会被标记出来,引发实体审计,并可能揭示大楼的 FAS 在火灾发生前几个月就已经停用了。 1465

  1. 3. 此外,虽然政府正在探索1466普遍缩短 14 天的提交窗口,但我们建议,如果一个主要的高层 FSI 被关闭或发现有缺陷,任何临时检查或不完整的维修状态必须在 24 小时内以电子方式报告。在这样的规则下,当宏泰消防的技术人员在 2025 年 11 月 19 日进入泵房并发现总

开关关闭时,他们将被要求在 24 小时内提交临时电子状态更新-在火灾发生之前提醒消防处关闭火灾报警器。 1224.4. 同样重要的是,消防处应该审查其协议并实施一个强大的 FS251 审核系统,该系统可以(i) 自动标记不一致的证书,(ii)在法定的 14 天(或 24 小时)期限内未收到证书时触发迅速的跟进,以及(iii)确保及时的电子处理。火灾前的安排未能发现快速连续提交的宏泰消防和中华发展证书之间的不一致,1467允许丢失的证书被忽视半年1468,并且处理其他证书延迟了许多个月,使法定提交要求无效。一个现代化的核查系统对于确保识别金融稳定机构的缺陷并立即采取行动至关重要。 C4. 在适当的情况下进行具体的工程风险管理

1465 [T10/35:5-15] 1466 政府改进措施表§A9 1467 2025 年 3 月 31 日,宏泰消防提交了所有 8 个区块的 FS251 证书,证明 FH/HR 系统处于正常工作状态。仅仅 7 天后,即 2025 年 4 月 7 日,中华发展提交了一份 SDN,声明由于水箱泄漏,FH/HR 系统需要关闭。消防处并没有就两份在短时间内提交的 sdn 的描述不一致提出任何疑问。 1468 中华发展于 2025 年 4 月 7 日提交了宏泰阁的第一个 SDN。然而,相应的 FS251 证书-确定缺陷为 FS 水箱漏水-直 到 2025 年 10 月 3 日才到达消防处,将近六个月后。 1469 [T27/72:5-18]

表现出灾难性的行为。因此,理想情况下,在搭建棚架之前,应该提前对所有临时材料对特定建筑几何结构的影响进行工程风险评估。

  1. 委员会还听到有证据表明,现行《建筑规范》的基准是以适用于典型空置建筑工地的一般社区期望和成本效益假设为前提的。他们不考虑在成千上万的居民仍被占领的情况下进行重大 的、高风险的翻新工程。规管架构必须认识到,已占用建筑物的翻新工程所固有的风险增加。

1470

1470 主席在听证会上指出:[T27/74:3-16]。另见 2011 年《建筑物消防安全实务守则》第 G2.1 条关于“被认为符合”的规定[B2/1168]。 1471 [T27/57:12-25]。参见他们对政策层面变化的建议[ER6/2747];和 IC 专家报告§7.5 [ER3/2255]

被视为一种可选的替代方案,通常仅在出现“特殊危险”的不寻常或复杂的新发展时才会调用, 其中“在遵守本守则中被视为遵守的规定方面存在真正的困难”。1472

  1. 消防处在批准某些风险较高的已占用高层楼宇的翻新和修复工程时,应考虑要求达到这种科学严谨程度。审批程序应确保适用于新建筑的分析原则适用于可能使居民面临重大火灾风险的临时工程。

C5. 禁烟令

(i) 拟议立法

  1. 委员会得悉,政府已正式建议在所有建筑地盘全面实施法定禁烟令。截至提交意见书之日, 这些建议正在立法程序中取得进展,但尚未完全生效。
  2. 我们支持并采纳政府在二零一六年五月提出的立法建议:《二零二六年建筑地盘(安全)(修订)规例》、《二零二六年吸烟(公众卫生)条例(修订附表 2)令》及《二零二六年定额罚款(吸烟罪行)(修订)公告》。1473
  3. 特别值得注意的是,政府提议在所有情况下全面禁止在所有建筑工地吸烟,取消了以前证明存在“易燃液体”或其他特定火灾危险的要求。1474地址 a
  4. 我们建议尽快制定和实施这些修订,以便在香港所有高层建筑和楼宇维修工地全面禁止吸烟。

草的第 53 条法规要求承建商“采取一切合理步骤”,确保没有人在现场吸烟或携带点燃的指 定吸烟产品。从长远来看,在考虑到新规例 53 的有效性后,政府可考虑是否可能以严格的法律责任标准取代该标准,类似于《职业安全及健康(显示屏设备)规例》(第 509B 章) 1472 [b2/1175 - 1176]。总之,对于有特别危险的建筑物,建筑事务监督可以接受以性能为本的设计作为“替代方案”。目前,这要求开发商提交一份名为消防安全评估报告(FSAR)的庞大而昂贵的文件。消防安全子系统见[B2/1181]。 《建筑地盘(安全)规例》(第 59I 章)旧规例第 53 条的长期欠缺,即只有在地盘内积极使用或存放易挥发的液体或物质,才可发出禁止吸烟通知书。 1473 [D4/1988-2004] 1474 立法会参考资料摘要修订条例草案第 7-14 条[D4/1990]

第 11 条下现有的严格法律责任罪行。承建商不应依靠通用的安全简报或警告标志来免除责任。更严格的标准将强制实施积极的、实际的进入现场控制(例如在门口没收打火机和香 烟)。1236.2.在任何情况下,即使要采用合理的标准,也应要求主承建商对进入工地的每一个工人进行一次消防安全诱导,并每周举行一次专门针对禁烟的情况介绍会。这些简报的书面日志必须由工人签名,并在随机审核时提供给劳工处的检查员。 1475 1476 1236.3. 任何根据修订规例第 53 条被定罪的承建商或分判商,或其工人在同一地盘多次接获定额罚款通知书,均应在屋宇署管理的中央资料库自动累积记分。该安全纪录应直接与市建局的“Smart Tender”招标平台(见下文第 9 章)相连,确保疏忽的承建商不得竞投公营及私营住宅翻新工程,以免承担经济后果。 1236.4. 最高 40 万港元的罚款,可能无法有效震慑总承建商进行价值数百万港元的翻新工程。我们 建议将违反规例第 53 条的承办商的最高罚款额按简易程序定罪增至港币 3,000,000 元,按 起诉增至港币 10,000,000 元,以配合《工厂及工业经营条例》(第 59 章)一般责任条文的严重性。1477 无人机空中监视

1475 立法会参考资料摘要修订条例草案第 7(b)条[D4/1991];政府结案§482.3 1476 [D1/589] 1477 [D1/414] 1478 政府改善措施表§E1. 另见政府结束语第 986 条。

  1. 2. 显而易见的原因是,工人们不会在步行到工地的检查员面前吸烟。无人机可以绕过这个限制。从工地边界外发射,它们可以监控高空的外部棚架,并在工人有时间隐藏香烟之前捕捉到违规行为的直接证据。
  2. 3. 虽然居民可能也会看到工人直接在窗外吸烟,但很多人会担心,如果他们被看到拍摄工人或提出投诉,会遭到报复,这是可以理解的。将监视转移到无人机(通常不太可预测,不会使居民暴露在对抗中)可能有助于产生威慑效果,减少直接报告的需要。 1479
  3. 为了加强政府的提议,我们建议考虑为用于安全监视的无人机配备热成像能力,而不是仅仅依赖标准的视觉摄像头。工人经常在厚厚的绿网后面吸烟,塑料布,或者在深的凹入位里面吸烟。标准相机可能无法穿透这些材料。采用热传感器成像可以使监管者检测到点燃的烟头

(或未经授权的焊接火花)的温度特征,甚至通过沉重的网。然而,鉴于监视将在被占领的建筑物内进行,应考虑到居民的隐私。 1480

(三)吸烟的照片和录像证据

我们建议劳工处修订执法指引,明确接受居民或屋苑保安人员提交的高分辨率、带时间戳的照片和视频证据,作为发出定额罚款通知书的有效和充分依据。居民们也提出了这项改革。 1481

如果需要修订立法或管理条例,就应毫不拖延地进行。毕竟,执法人员并不总是能够及时赶到现场(或者无人机可能没有部署),以见证违规行为。在这种情况下,投诉人提供的经适当认证的照片或录像证据应视为足以证明投诉属实,以便发出定额罚款通知书。

1479 [T14/49:28-50:2] 1480 在这方面,请参阅政府关于消防处配备热成像功能的无人机在救援行动中用于空中监视的关闭§§872,875。 1481 居民建议§§12-16

C6. 加强政府机构之间的合作

  1. 宏福苑火灾暴露了负责建筑安全、临时工程监管、劳工执法、消防安全和装修监督的政府机构之间协调的系统性失败。没有任何一个部门能够充分认识到在前线积累的风险。各部门各自为政,不存在交叉核查信息、升级关切或联合干预的机制。1482
  2. 这一悲剧表明,如果政府机构孤立运作,就不可能实现安全。必须要求他们在一个统一的、连续的安全循环中共享数据、投诉和检查记录。
  3. 因此,我们建议订立一份正式的跨部门沟通和执法程序,由屋宇署、审控小组、消防处、劳工处和民政事务总署共同参与。下面的例子只是说明性的,需要在更广泛的综合监管框架下进一步探索。
  4. 首先,应采取措施加强 BD、ICU、消防处和LD 之间的数字集成和信息共享。无论是通过单一的中央注册表还是通过增强现有数据库之间的互操作性来实现,目标都是一样的:确保关键安全信息(FSI 关闭通知、棚架记录、MW 数据、LD 的检查结果等)在统一的数据共享框架内跨部门访问。 1483
  5. 改进的数字集成将使风险信号能够立即相互参照,并直接解决根深蒂固的“沟通差距”。例如, 听证会显示,监察组完全不知道屋宇署工地安全审核协议的重大变化,因为各部门只举行了 很少的正式联络会议。在加强的数据共享系统下,任何对屋宇署审核指引的修订或不合规承 建商的注册都应立即向 ICU 公布,确保私营和公共房屋部门在建筑安全控制方面的一致性和 一致性。
  6. 第二,就独立审查组和屋宇署而言,我们进一步建议停止倚赖非正式的“口头意见”。正如政府所建议的那样,两个部门之间的所有协商都应由一名首长级官员批准,并记录在一个中央数据库中。此外,令人鼓舞的是,联络会议已由每年一次增加至每季度一次,屋宇署和检控

1482 如香港教育学会建议第 4-5 页所述 1483 ICU 向 BD 的报告中似乎讨论了 ICU 与 BD 之间的实时数据共享,参见[J1-3/6674/§23]。

组的人员亦已互相借调,以配合监察工作。这些措施早就该采取了;令人遗憾的是,在宏福苑工程期间没有采取类似的措施。1484

  1. 至于联络会议本身,有证据表明,实际上很少讨论个别案件。重要的是,我们建议,鉴证组适当地利用这些会议,提请屋宇署注意特定项目中出现的问题,特别是涉及消防安全问题的问题。屋宇署亦应借此机会向监察小组通报其政策的任何重大变化,例如有关工地安全检查的政策。 1485
  2. 与此相关,我们建议屋宇署根据谅解备忘录第 3.2 条行使其审计职能,定期对 ICU 的 MBIS 工 作进行有文件记录的审计。证据表明,在宏福苑从未进行过此类审计,而这一失败使得系统 缺陷,包括在第一类小型工程期间没有进行现场安全检查和事先通知投诉检查,没有被发现。屋宇署定期进行的审计,将为检控组的工作提供必要的外部检查,并确保两个部门保持一致 的标准。1486
  3. 第三,就屋宇署和消防处的分工而言,我们建议两个部门联合发出一份公开备忘录,列明各自在消防安全执法方面的责任,包括主动和被动消防装置和建筑材料。目前的安排以内部规范和转诊模板为基础,在实践中证明是不明确的,使消防安全风险陷入真空。 1487
  4. 第四,政府应彻底检讨及重组所有楼宇管制及消防安全部门处理投诉及转介的工作流程,以消除根深蒂固的沟通隔阂。
  5. 正如居民在提交的文件1488中提出的那样,任何部门收到的任何安全投诉都应该自动登录到一个共享系统上,并直接发送给适当的执法机构,以便采取协调行动。行政协议应明确规定, 一个部门如何在其管辖范围之外将公民的投诉转交给正确的当局,确保没有信息丢失、延迟或循环重定向。我们也注意到消防处最近实施了一项优化的个案转介制度,在投诉人同意的

1484 政府结案§985 1251。我们认为,备忘录应规定互相重叠的警惕性:换句话说,两个部门都应就所有火警隐患 (无论是屋宇署或消防处的主要责任)进行例行检查,而其中任何一个部门发现的任何风险,都应触发明确的文件转介途径。这将确保没有投诉或危险在部门之间传递而不采取行动。 1485 彭玉龙,Michael WS§60 [WS1/735] 1486 [T20/34:26-35:17] 1487 [T20/11:13-27] 1488 居民建议§§31-33

情况下,任何非消防处的危险(例如外墙材料)都会被转介到正确的部门,进行追踪,并在有争议的情况下升级到首长级。这些步骤对于缓解宏福苑案例中出现的部门旋转木马非常重要。 1489

  1. 但更根本的是,在正确的权限不明确的情况下(或者由于管辖权边界尚未解决而导致投诉未能在规定的时间范围内得到解决),应该有一种机制来触发联合的、多部门的突击现场访问,而不是等待解决管辖权边界。证据显示,当宏福苑的居民在 2024 年底和 2025 年向劳工处和屋宇署投诉工人吸烟和有缺陷的棚网时,两个部门花了数周时间来回传送文件。本应立即 派出联合特遣部队。
  2. 无论采用何种机制(自动转介到正确的主管部门或联合检查协议),这些投诉都不能被允许落空。必须有人负责检查、跟踪和关闭每一个安全问题的循环。如果出现部门职责重叠的情况,所有相关部门都应该负责解决问题,而不是一个都没有。
  3. 第五,无人机部署(上文已经讨论过)将受益于统一的跨部门方法。政府可考虑建立“统一的无人机安全队”,而非劳工处、屋宇署及独立审查组分别采购无人机队。BD 和 ICU 已经维持了无人机操作人员的功能。单个自动飞行可以执行多用途审计:检查 BD/ICU 的未经授权的楼梯窗移动(通道开口),同时扫描 LD 的棚架高度以检查吸烟违规。 1490
  4. 更广泛地说,在这种情况下,技术的使用应遵循同样的原则:应鼓励政府部门整合现代技术和人工智能工具,无缝共享数据,并采用协调的数字监控和分析系统,作为统一技术综合执法框架的一部分。

C7. 修订《建筑物条例》(及有关法例)

对《建筑物条例》(第 123 章)的有关条文及相关规例的解释、适用及执行,在多个方面令人不满意。宏福苑事件暴露了在执行、监督和对立法计划的实际理解方面的系统性弱点。 1489 政府关门§§947-949 1490 See e.g. [I1-4/9188] at §47

些材料可用于第 16 条下的临时预防措施。上述修订可能旨在立法规定,所有临时表面覆盖层(棚网和塑料布)必须符合严格的阻燃标准,并由实验所认可计划实验室进行批量测试, 如上文所述。

1491 下文第 C8 节讨论了有关 rbp 和承建商的建议。 1492 政府改善措施表§§B2(ii)及(v) 1493 IC 专家报告§7.1.3 [ER3/2249] 1494 政府改进措施表§B2(i)。另见刘玉青女士的口供[T20/36:33-37:13] 1266.1. 管理委员会必须聘请注册第三方专业人士,如授权人士或注册结构工程师。

法律不要求订明建筑专业人员。其结果是,高风险的改造工程在没有独立的专业监督的情况下进行,这种做法根本不符合被占用建筑物翻修工程的实际情况。 1495

  1. 今后,这些工程必须根据《建筑物(小型工程)规例》(第 123N 章)被列为第 I 类小型工程, 这在法律上要求在建筑工程开始前:1496
  2. 2. 专业人士必须直接向屋宇署或屋宇署提交订明的建造计划及详细的地盘监察计划。

1266.3. 工程须经建筑事务监督覆核图则及发出正式书面同意后才能展开。

第三,我们建议在《建筑物条例》(第 123 章)内引入直接刑事罪行,惩罚使用或批准不符合法定消防安全标准的临时防护材料的注册建筑专业人士或承建商。

在现行制度下,如果承建商使用不符合规定的物料,很难根据《建筑物条例》对其提出检控。政府需要依靠模糊和间接的罪行,例如第 40(2A)条下使用“有缺陷的材料”的罪行。1497需要直接犯罪。如果检查员进行未经通知的审核,发现有问题的材料,建筑事务监督应有法定 权力立即发出停止工程令,并对承建商和获授权签署人提起刑事诉讼。

第四,如上所述,两个专家小组得出结论,宏福苑再入层的建筑设计限制了散热。密闭的空间将热量困住,导致上升的过热气体在垂直通道上剧烈加速,产生不受控制的垂直火焰喷射 (“烟囱效应”)。 1498

在这方面,我们可以看到,在一九九六年嘉利大厦大火后,香港禁止在电梯井内使用可燃材料,并规定设置物理屏障,以防止火势沿电梯井垂直蔓延。正如 Usmani 教授在听证会上解释的那样,宏福苑的火灾表明,凹入位的行为方式与外部电梯井类似:如果凹入位面临与garley 后的电梯井相同的限制,这场悲剧很可能被避免。 1499

1495 如 Pang Yuk Lung, Michael WS§21(b)所述[WS1/717] 1496 政府结案文件第 984 条指出,政府正“检讨《建筑物条例》,并考虑修订法例,要求由第三方专业人士监管大型楼宇修葺工程,并在工程动工前提交订明图则和监管图则”。 1497 彭玉龙,Michael WS§144(c) [WS1/773] 1498 [T27/84:24-85:2] 1499 [T27/71:6-72:4]

因此,我们建议政府考虑修订建筑物规例,按照专家的建议,对半封闭式建筑凹入位(或轻型井)采用与内部竖井(例如升降机井)同样严格的消防安全规定,禁止在这些热力通道内进行易燃的临时工程。1500 C8. 加强对注册建筑专业人员和承建商1501的监管

要解决私人楼宇翻新市场的系统漏洞,就必须彻底改变注册建筑专业人士和承建商在《建筑物条例》下的监管、发牌和纪律处分。虽然该制度的许多方面都需要重新考虑,但我们的建议侧重于改革 MBIS,加强RIs 的作用,并使纪律和许可框架现代化。

(一)改革城市综合管理系统,提升城市综合管理系统的作用

首先,听证会暴露了一种普遍而危险的做法:被任命的国际注册会计师(如宏福苑项目中的吴 yeuk Wilson 先生)很少出席建筑工地,将关键的实物监督和材料核查委托给不合格、未经审查的公司助理。实际上,注册检验人员(RI)充当了一个“橡皮图章”,提供法定认证而不执行法定监督。

《建筑物条例》第 30D 条将适当监督及亲自核实维修物料是否有瑕疵的责任,完全落在个别注册检验人员(RI)身上。

为了加强这一点,我们建议立法明确禁止 RIs 将关键里程碑检查委托给初级代表,并明确规定现场监督的法定职责是个人不可委托的。法律应要求注册检验人员(RI)亲自操办、记录并签署这些里程碑的现场日记。如果不这样做,将自动构成专业行为不端,并立即被停职。

其次,在宏福苑火灾之前,政府对风险投资机构的监管基本上是被动的。独立审查组和屋宇署只在两个固定的时间点检讨研究所的工作:提交初步检查报告时(表格 MBI3)和收到最后完成报告时(表格 MBI4)。在进行积极的高风险建筑工作的几个月或几年期间,政府没有

1500 [ER6/2745/§2] 1501 关于工作前冲突声明的建议也见第 10 章。

进行例行的现场视察,也没有与国际劳工组织进行沟通,而是完全依靠以荣誉为基础的制度和居民对国际劳工组织进行监测。 1502

  1. 据我们了解,检控组自那以后至少每六个月对正在进行大规模维修的建筑物进行一次额外的现场检查,并定期与建筑督察举行会议和审查监督记录。虽然这无疑是朝着正确方向迈出的一步,但六个月的间隔时间可能太短,无法探测到主动危险,例如未密封的楼梯逃生途径。政府可考虑要求注册机构定期向屋宇署/监察小组提供监察记录,并缩短开会时间,以发现新出现的风险。 1503
  2. 第三,有证据显示,在香港约 600 家注册机构中,只有 128 家表示有兴趣实际提供 MBIS 下的服务。这种窄池扭曲了市场,推高了成本,使该行业容易受到恐吓、出价操纵和卡特尔的影响(详见下文第 9 章)。 1504
  3. 因此,我们建议屋宇署设立快速培训和认证计划,让合资格、有操守的年轻专业人士安全地 进入 MBIS 市场,而不必担心业界的压力。正如廉政公署所指出的,1505的目标是扩大在职督察的人数,并削弱犯罪集团垄断或胁迫该行业的能力。其中一种可能性是,建筑师、结构工 程师和测量师的专业注册续期,须以完成公共 MBIS 或建筑物修复工程的强制性配额为条件。然而,任何这类计划的可行性显然都需要进一步研究和协商。

改革登记、发牌和纪律制度

  1. 首先,证据显示现行《建筑物条例》的核心存在结构性缺陷:注册专业人士和承建商无限期保留其身份,而续期则被视为被动的行政手续。这使得承建商即使在积累了大量的安全和劳工犯罪之后也能保持许可状态。有效永久的注册制度不能提供可信的监管保证。 1506

1502 [T22/24:26-31] 1503 刘富国 WS§30(c) [WS1/617];余泽生 2nd WS§8(I)(c) [WS14/2174];政府改善措施表§B(3)(ii) 1504 [t2/33:5-6] 1281。正如上文第 1220.3 条所述,根据拟议的消防处修订,消防处正在用强制性的五年续期制度取代永久注册的消防人员,但须经过“适当”评估,包括刑事定罪和专业失当记录。 1505 廉政公署向独立委员会提交的报告(二零二六年一月)第 100 条[WS20/2288] 1506 参见 PNRC 38§§2,8 [j1 -1/ 74,750]附录 J;彭玉龙,Michael WS§133 [WS1/765]

我们建议屋宇署对所有注册一般建筑承建商、注册小型工程承建商和建筑专业人士(注册承建商、认可人士和注册结构工程师)采用消防处的五年更新模式,适用于整个《建筑物条 例》。首次登记和随后的续签应经过严格的“适当”评估,通过多部门数据库评估刑事定罪、违反劳动安全规定和纪律记录。

第二,纪律责任必须直接延伸到个别关键人员和技术人员。取证听证会表明,承建商可以通过空壳公司或关联公司的网络开展业务。在实践中,辛迪加可以通过将资产、人员和“证书共享”模板转移到联盟实体来逃避有意义的纪律处分,从而允许同一团队以不同的公司名称继续竞标数百万美元的项目。1507

为了解决这个问题,消防处将纪律责任扩展至个别合资格人士及注册消防装置技术员。1508

我们建议屋宇署在处理《建筑物条例》时,复制这种做法。纪律责任和检控应延伸至承建商的授权签署人、技术总监和监督专业人员(授权人士和认可人士)。例如,如果发现承建商使用伪造的测试证书或操纵测试,纪律委员会应有权撤销个别董事和签署者的注册,防止他们以新的公司名称重新注册。

第三,委员会得悉政府已就规管建筑工程的立法计划提出以下修订建议:1509 1286.1. 发展局建议将直接参与建筑工程造成严重伤亡的注册建筑专业人士或承建商的最高刑事罚款由一百万元提高至一千万元。1286.2.纪律委员会的最高罚款将由 25 万港元增至 40 万港元,并有权同时发出多项制裁(例如重罚及将其除名)。1286.3.大规模的维修将升级为需要第三方专业人员的监督,并在任何工作开始之前提交规定的计划和监督计划。

我们支持这些修订,特别是同时实行制裁,避免在罚款和撤职之间进行人为的“非此即彼”的选择。

然而,我们建议,应以有意义的方式提高《建筑物条例》对企业的最高纪律罚款(例如 100 万港元),以反映在已占用的装修工程中生命安全风险的严重性。40 万港元可能不足以吓阻

1507 在[WS22/2445]中解释了“凭据共享”和“幽灵投标”的概念。 1508 谘询文件第 29(a)条[B14/6283] 1509 政府改善措施表§B2

企业承办商。在宏福苑的一个 3.36 亿港元的翻新项目中,40 万港元的罚款可能会被视为仅仅是“做生意的成本”。

  1. 我们亦建议采用消防处精简的文件处理和缺席程序规则,以防止承办商故意拖延程序而延长纪律调查。1510

制备过程。使用更智能的技术

  1. 3. 然而,上述措施需要仔细评估其实用性和操作负担,包括成本和监管机构实施这些措施的能力。

1510 咨询文件§29(d) [B14/6283]火灾隐患视频(例如,工人在棚架或未密封的楼梯窗户上吸烟)。如果主楼的火灾警报因承建商的关闭通知而暂时关闭,该应用程序将充当故障安全装置,直接向居民的移动设备发出即时、局部的疏散警告。这将关闭致命的“通知差距”,导致生命损失在宏福苑。[1745] 1511 一个例子是由 RGC 资助的“SureFire”(智能城市韧性和消防)项目;参见 IC 专家报告§8.2 [ER3/2258]。 1512 IC 专家报告§§7.4.5,8.2.3 [ER3/2255, 2258-2259]

C10. 投诉、检查和其他政府做法

  1. 宏福苑悲剧暴露了政府对装修工程的监管做法,特别是在检查、投诉处理和临时工程监督方面存在严重的系统性缺陷。
  2. 虽然政府的作法有许多方面可能需要改革,但委员会不可能也不适当试图详尽地列出每一项可能的改进。因此,我们集中于查明有证据表明最迫切需要改革的主要领域。

(i) ICU 和 BD 1513

(建造)》第 16 条的规定。 1513 虽然由于宏福苑最初是房屋委员会的项目,这些听证会必然更关注 ICU,但必须记住,MBIS 适用于屋宇署监管的广泛私人建筑物。因此,这里揭露的问题是系统性的,而不是部门性的。有意义的改革必须解决整个政府在 BD 和 ICU 的政策和实践。 1514 余泽生第 2 版WS§8(II)(e) [WS14/2180]施工期间的规定,包括是否使用了危险的方法或材料。 1515 [T22/42:20-35] 1516 居民建议§§28-30 1517 容少麟 WS§24 [WS1/663]

ICU 在宏福苑收到了许多关于消防安全问题的投诉和询问,MW01 提交的材料中有楼梯通道 1518 顾绍平 WS§43 [WS1/638]协议。审计的数量应该随着香港正在进行的、已占用的高层翻新工程的数量自动增加, 而不是受到一个严格的上限的限制。动态抽样模型确保了监管监督与实际风险成比例地扩大。[1754] 1519 [T22/24:27-29] 1520 ICUG(B)18“MBIS 对提交的初步、基本和审计检查”(2022 年 12 月)§9 [I1-1/325] 1521 政府关门§§657,983;杨少麟[j]。然而,值得注意的是,监控处新的 30%现场安全检查做法仅适用于有监理计划的第一类小型工程,而不是所有小型工程。

口的清晰照片证据。然而,ICU 没有发现或解决火灾当天出现的任何火灾风险,MW 团队同样未能发现违反消防安全要求的情况。这种情况必须改变。 (2) 女性性功能障碍

  1. 在火灾前制度下,消防处实行被动的、依赖纸张的审计制度。区域物流中心完成了年度检查, 但只要求“应要求”提供检查清单。消防处的记过制度很落后:只有在承建商完成现场检查后 才会进行现场检查 1522
  2. 这种系统的不足之处在宏福苑的案例中暴露无遗。消防处收到正式通知,说大厦的房屋/人力资源系统因维修而停用,但只进行了粗略的初步视察。这名官员依靠口头描述,而不是亲自核实缺陷,也没有检查是否提供了强制性安全通知或备用设备。在接下来的几个月里,中华发展多次延长关闭通知,但没有人回来重新验证该网站。
  3. 消防处必须采取更积极的措施。我们建议检查员应该亲自检查相关的 FSIs,并积极核实和测试它们,而不是依赖口头保证或敷衍的外观检查。每次评估都应确认哪些金融系统宕机,是否必须宕机,宕机多长时间,并应包括进入金融系统泵房,检查主电源开关和系统配置。此外,不事先通知的视察应成为常态,任何超过 30 天的去功能化都应触发现场核查。1523
  4. 如前所述,如果承建商在未安装冗余备份安全措施的情况下伪造检查清单或停用高层建筑的

FAS,他们应立即受到最高记分,并自动暂停其营业执照。

1522 姜世明第 4 期WS§21 [WS8/1918] 1523 这符合政府的最新措施:政府关闭§776;[T19/33:9-14]。在接收到一个 FSI 系统(例如水箱)的 SDN 后,消防处现在将进行实地检查,以独立验证其他相关的 FSI 系统(如玻璃破碎报警器)是否仍处于活动状态。rfsic 必须报告任何系统“连锁效应”故障[B14/6249]。

(3) LD

的是,正如上文第 1240 条所建议的那样,宏福苑的经验表明,地政处(以及所有其他建筑物管理机构)必须从根本上修改其执法指南,以接受居民提交的照片和视频证据,作为证实安全投诉和发起检控的有效和充分的依据。投诉不应仅仅因为劳工处检查员没有亲眼目睹工人吸烟或再次违反职安健规定而被驳回。这些变化是必不可少的,如果立法修订吸烟有真正的效果。

C11. 消防的建议

1524 李文邦 WS§10 [WS1/335] 1525 李文邦第 3 号WS§5(ii) [WS13/2113]

  1. 2. 至于消防员安全系统,鉴于何鸿燊不幸丧生,我们建议应加强使用消防员定位技术,并全面检讨进入管制程序。
  2. 3. 证据显示,许多居民早早被困,警报失灵,疏散不一致。因此,我们建议采用明确的大规模疏散标准,并修订使用EAS 处理重大火灾的政策。
  3. 4. 正如政府承认的那样,在火灾当天,在处理和传播信息方面存在不足之处。消防处的资讯系统必须升级和现代化,其程序也必须检讨,以尽量减少人工处理。

第 9 章围标及相关不当行为

A. 引言

B. 围标及反竞争行为在市场中普遍存在

B1. 围标为反竞争行为

1319. 简要概述在BMR 工程中操纵投标的含义可能会有所帮助。

在正常运行的招标程序中,承建商通过独立计算其最低可行价格并提供最佳条款来竞争。这种竞争原则确保房主获得公平的市场价格。1526

围标破坏了这个过程。当两个或两个以上的竞标者秘密同意不竞争时,就会发生这种情况。 1527根据《竞争条例》(第 619 章)第 2 条,围标可视为“严重反竞争行为”。1528

从法律上和实践上讲,围标发生在承建商达成秘密协议,在不告诉要求投标的人(建筑物所有者)的情况下做以下任何一件事:同意根本不投标。1322.2.同意撤回他们已经提交的报 价。 1529

围标的最终目标是操纵结果,以便预先选定的承建商以人为抬高的价格赢得项目,从而损害房主的利益。

操纵投标是更广泛的反竞争行为中的一种技术。“反竞争行为”包括任何旨在或实际上妨碍、限制或扭曲香港正常竞争的协议、一致做法或行为。

1530(“CC”)在其向委员会提交的报告和材料中指出,建筑维修市场受到高度复杂和系统形式的反竞争行为的困扰。CC 将这些行为分类为几个重复出现的模式:1531 1325.1. 价格垄断: 指竞争对手暗中同意固定、维持、提高或控制其服务的价格。即使他们不同意谁将赢得一个特定的竞标,他们也同意设定一个高的基准价格,这样无论谁赢得竞标,都将获得一笔可观的、不公平的利润。1325.2.市场分享(或区域分配):这涉及到承建商同意在他们自己之间瓜分市场。例如,一个卡特尔可能同意只接受项目

1526 260325_CTEA 1 of 2026 -申请§52 [U2/94] 1322.3. 提交通过秘密协议达成的报价(例如,秘密地事先商定每个人的报价)。 1527 在[U1/4]定义“围标”;亦参阅物业管理服务管理局发出的《行为守则》第 4 条[G1-1/447] 1528 立法会楼宇维修业报告(2016 年 5 月)§31 [U1/17] 1529 [U1/4] 1530 CC 的开幕致辞日期为 2026 年 3 月 9 日(“CC 开幕致辞”),CC 的报告日期为 2026 年 5 月 14 日§19(“CC 5 月报 告”),CC 的建议日期为 2026 年 6 月 17 日(“CC 6 月建议”)九龙,而另一个则是新界,确保它们实际上不会相互竞争。 1531 CC 开放地址§3(2)-(4)[WS3/1727-1728];CC 五月报告§§12-14 [WS22/2451-2455];以及 CC 的结案§§5-20

  1. 3. 掩护竞价(或“浅层竞价”):这是一种精心策划的策略,一个集团指定一个“主角”(被选中的赢家)和几个“帮助者”。这些帮助者故意提交过于昂贵或没有吸引力的报价——通常是基于策划者分发的精确定价说明或“作业”。这就产生了一种错误的错觉,即“主角”的高价出价实际上是最好的交易。
  2. 4. 抑制投标:竞争对手同意其中一个或多个不投标或退出竞标,以确保指定的获胜者没有真正的挑战者。
  3. 5. 幻影竞标:策划者设立多个空壳公司或表面上独立的承建商,这些公司都在他们的秘密控制之下。然后,策划者让这些假公司相互竞标,制造出一种竞争性招标程序的完全假象。
  4. 6. 凭证共享:承建商将其公司的正式信笺、凭证和电子邮件帐户借给竞争对手。然后,竞争对手使用借来的身份提交虚假报价,作为自己报价的“掩护”。
  5. 7. 信息交换:即使承建商没有明确同意操纵投标,简单地秘密分享竞争敏感信息(如他们计划的定价或报价策略)也可以消除市场的不确定性,限制竞争。

B2. 围标在市场上的插图

1326. 显然,上述串通投标行为是香港楼宇维修市场的特有特征。

1532 参见 CC 收盘§§5-20 1328.2. 另一份意见书[1770]建议使用顾问评分和代理投票来阻挠大富的任命 1533 委员会尚未听取关于其中许多事项的直接证据,重要的是,委员会不应将下列情况视为确定的调查结果。它们只是说明了公众所关注的问题。

身开始,1534的一份提交文件声称,一名与三合会有联系的个人(后来被廉政公署起诉)试图通过恐吓和代理收集来影响顾问和承建商的选择。据称,他带着武装人员参加会议,当他的首选顾问没有得到任命时,他就打断会议进程,后来又提拔了一名出价远高于市建局基准的承建商。提交的文件进一步指称有人企图推翻 IO 并索要回扣,甚至推测随后的火灾与敲诈勒索有关。 )在得宝花园,业主选择的承建商。它指控该咨询公司的董事存在利益冲突,在 CC 调查中依赖咨询公司自身的负面“同行评议”,以及由大量可疑代理人推动的最终投票。 1328.3. 另一份意见书指称,委员会成员将清丽苑的重要工作拖延了多年,毫无理由地撤回了一份已完成的 MBIS 报告,并以高昂的成本任命了一家咨询公司 RS Surveyors。据说,承建商的选择受到了促销活动的影响,其次是为了避免业主的批准而分批授予“附加”工程。1535 1536 1328.4. 1537提交的一份文件对建煌华厦一期顾问任命中的违规行为表示关切。虽然市建局平台甄选了六间合资格的公司,而管理委员会则甄选了四间进行面试,但在两名拥有集中投票权的业主介入后,股东大会最终选定了鸿毅,尽管鸿毅并非入围竞标者,也不是最便宜的。提交的材料声称鸿毅没有经过审查或面谈。 1328.5. 更广泛地说,公开意见书指出了便于抓捕卡特尔的核心弱点。在法定框架下,投票单不需要包括“反对”选项。如果一个人投票

  1. 这些例子令人震惊。它们反映出,在这个市场上,胁迫、代理收获、顾问俘获和结构性漏洞结合在一起,为卡特尔行为提供了肥沃的土壤,并突显出进行有意义的监管和结构性改革的紧迫性。

1534 [IE7/1558] 1535 [IE7/1532] 1536 如下所述,RS 测量师亦担任宏福苑翻新工程的独立顾问。 1537 [IE7/1552]

B3. 抗击围标的特殊挑战

  1. 《竞争条例》禁止损害竞争的协议或合谋行为:《第一行为准则》第 6 条规定了压制投标、掩护投标、轮流投标和其他形式的串通投标。被发现违反该条例的经营者每三年将面临最高达其香港营业额 10%的罚款。就个人而言,律政司的立场是法定最高限额不设上限。董事也可能被取消资格,最长可达五年。1538
  2. 自条例实施以来,律政司一直采取持续的执法行动。在 2016 年至 2019 年期间,它对 18 家

企业和 5 名个人提起了 3 起案件,涉及装饰装修行业的价格操纵和市场份额,并获得了申 报,处罚和董事资格取消令。从 2022 年起,该科与警方有组织罪案及三合会调查科合作, 就楼宇维修招标展开了五项大型调查。这些调查涉及至少 68 个住宅小区、15 个工业小区和64 家公司。1539

  1. 2026 年 3 月,欧盟委员会首次针对大型建筑维修中的价格操纵、串通投标和市场份额行为提

起了执法行动。宏福苑是一个主要的围标集团所针对的 11 个屋苑之一。该集团劫持的合约总值估计接近七亿港元。值得注意的是,宏福苑的每份咨询公司和承建商投标书都包含非串通条款和非串通投标证书。相关行为者签署了这些文件,明确表示他们没有串通。如该等陈述是虚假的,该等行为可构成串谋诈骗。1540

  1. 此外,在宏福苑火灾发生后,警方与廉署展开联合调查,拘捕七名人士及两间公司,并以二十五项刑事罪名(包括误杀、串谋诈骗及逃税)起诉。1541
  2. 即便如此,执行也并非一帆风顺。委员会收到了于二零二六年一月发布的廉政公署(“廉政公署”)报告(“廉政公署报告”)。该报告以鲜明的方式阐述了建筑和装修市场中根深蒂固的腐败模式。就目前而言,下列特点值得特别强调。 1542 1543

1538 CC 五月报告§§15-20 [WS22/2455-2456] 1539 CC 5 月报告§§9-11 [WS22/2450] 1540 [U2/164];以及政府结案§§1009-1010。 1541 政府的结案陈词第 72 条 1542 关于围标的执法和政府/公共机构的参与,请参见政府结案文件§§1027-1060。

安全和建筑标准。但廉政公署第 95 1545号报告显示,在这些被操纵的项目中,腐败的顾问故意任命“假”的顾问。这些实质上是假检查员,他们被雇佣来只是在政府文件上签名,让项目看起来合法,而对现场发生的实际建设工作没有真正的监督。这就解释了为什么危险的建筑行为会在地面上完全不受限制。正如第六章所审查的证据所证实的那样,这正是吴耀威在宏福苑所扮演的角色。

  1. 1. 信誉良好的建筑公司因担心遭到报复而不愿进入装修市场。这个领域被犯罪集团瓜分,他们几乎没有面临任何有意义的竞争。
  2. 2. 即使当业主或初级工人发现不法行为时,许多人也不敢站出来。他们的不情愿使得起诉异常困难,而潜在的行为仍然被隐瞒。

1543 [WS10/1954];以及市建局结案文件第 17 条 1544 廉政公署报告第 6 条[WS10/1958] 1545 [WS10/1979];以及政府结案§§903,1008 1546 廉政公署报告§§70,96 [ws10 / 1976,1980]

1547 林启乔 WS§§28-31 [WS1/287] 1548 廉政公署报告第 70 条[WS10/1976] 1549 廉政公署报告第 84 条[WS10/1978] 1550 ICAC Report§73 [WS10/1977];URA 所言的关闭§11 日指出,“有证据显示,有犯罪集团“恕尽办法避免使用它”“1344。第 2 章提供了招标程序在火灾前进行的翻新工程的完整帐户。以下是对这些事实和证据的总结,并补充了与操纵投标风险和可能导致这些风险的结构性弱点有关的证据。 1551 CC 结案§23

C. 宏福苑涉嫌围标及其他违规行为

C1. 概述

考虑到上述内容,可以方便地转到宏福苑的情况。必须强调的是,委员会在此的职权范围不是调查是否确实发生了任何特定的串通投标、串通投标或不当行为。相反,引用宏福苑的目的是为了说明大规模建筑改造市场中可能存在的那种系统性脆弱性。 C2. 委任土地测量师为独立顾问

2016 年 6 月 10 日,ICU 对 MBIS 下的宏福苑的所有八个区块发布了法定通知。

因应这些通知,法团于 2018 年 2 月 2 日申请加入市建局的 Smart Tender 计划。

1347. 2018 年 6 月 16 日,法团与市建局签订合约。1552

港币 102,077,704 元。1556 1552 (e1 - 1/1200 - 1220) 1553 市建局有一个由三名独立审查组成的小组(万邦测量师行、富邦测量师行和杰施筑量有限公司),市建局委任他们轮流担任独立顾问[T21/62:20-26]。 1554 [e1-1/1190] 1351。如下图所示,市建局及测量师在选择“宏福苑”的土地注册处及顾问公司的招标程序中,只发挥有限的作用。明显的原因是,在当时,该办法仅适用于选择承建商的投标活动,而没有扩大到任命高级顾问和顾问。[1796] [1795] 1555 [E1-1/1429-1466] 1556 初步评估报告[E1-1/1474];虽然初步评估报告的日期为 2018 年 8 月 9 日,但市建局的收据章显示,市建局直到 2019 年 1 月 18 日才收到最终的初步评估报告[E1-1/1467]。

C3. 招标程序中指定鸿毅作为 MBIS 检查的 RI

  1. 作为该过程的一部分,IO 需要指定一个注册检验人员 (RI)来执行 MBIS 检查。公开招标于

2018 年 9 月 3 日发布。市建局在其楼宇复修平台网站公布招标公告。1557招标时间为 2018 年 9 月 3 日至 26 日。1558

这次招标吸引了 24 个投标。市建局的投标价格摘要显示,鸿毅的出价为港币 222,000 元,是投标价第六低的竞投单位。1559

虽然投标价格不可避免地反映了市场情况和商业判断,但从投标价格摘要可以清楚地看出, 鸿毅的投标价格远低于平均水平,即 50 万港元左右。1560

证据亦显示,虽然业主立案法团并没有要求折扣,但 22 万 2 千港元的数字本身已较最初 24 万港元的价格有所降低。折扣被描述为考虑到鸿毅的运营情况后实施的措施

作为投标要求的一部分,2018 年 9 月 22 日,鸿毅及其沈巨忠签署了一份遵守道德承担要求的声明、1561和一份完整性和诚信及反围标条款确认书声明。鸿毅在同一天进一步签署了一份不合谋投标确认书。然而,如下所述,有媒体报道表明鸿毅实际上与宏福苑的其他咨询投标人有联系。 1562 1563

2019 年 1 月 25 日,业主投票决定任命鸿毅为MBIS 检查员。会议纪要记录了支持的明显多数: 2999 票(67.5%),第二高的投标人只获得 342 票(7.7%)。值得注意的是,鸿毅的投标价格 实际上高于排名第二的公司,后者的投标价格为 18.8 万港元。1564

有证据表明,鸿毅的压倒性胜利可能是精心策划的代理投票收集的产物:1358.1. 代理表格记 录显示,现任主席邓国权先生为本次会议持有 71 份代理委托书,现任陈德诚持有 64 份代

1557 陈逸豪马修 WS§19 [WS1/434] 1558 [E1-1/1511] 1559 [E1-4/8317] 1560 市建局拟备的投标价格摘要[E1-1/1508] 1561 [E1-4/8308] 1562 [E1-1/1501] 1563 [E1-4/8310–8312] 1564 [E1-1/1515]

理委托书,现任秘书陈万祥持有 51 份代理委托书,管理委员会成员之一冼丽媚持有 12 份 代理委托书。他们的代理人总共持有宏福苑的 2,575 股未分割股票。

  1. 2. 在这方面,物业主任郑子英女士也作证说,在推选顾问及督察的会议上,我们收集了超过一百张代理投票。她证实这些选票高度集中,主要由管理委员会的主席、副主席或秘书持有。

1565 1566

  1. 3. 郑女士同意管理处只在土地登记册上核实单位编号和列印的名称。没有采取任何步骤来核实签名的真实性,也没有联系所有者以确认他们已授权代理。对于一个决定数百万美元项目治理的过程来说,这种有限的验证显然是不够的。 1567
  2. 4. 香港居民及前管理委员会成员冯耀丹先生作证称,管理委员会成员的妻子及其他特工会聚集在广福村社区会堂,大批填写代理表格。他还指出,一份代理文书允许持有人任命最多 18 名委员会成员,使一名代理持有人能够对董事会的组成施加不成比例的影响。1568 1569
  3. 1. 市建局个案经理陈茂昌先生作证说,在 2018 年,市建局并没有使用Smart Tender 计划的电子招标平台,聘请一名注册会计师。市建局只提供“DIY 工具包”和标准模板供管理委员会采用。1570
  4. 2. 当管理委员会在 2018 年 9 月收到 24 份关于RI 角色的投标书时,市建局的参与仅限于编制投标价格摘要-一个数字电子表格。1571陈茂昌承认市建局没有就投标金额的合理与否提供意见,让非专业业主自行判断选择法定专业人士。1572
  5. 3. 市建局的任志刚进一步作证说,在讨论这些标书的关键会议上,市建局的代表离开了会议室。他解释说,这是根据市建局的规则,旨在避免对业主的选择进行干预或提供意见。1573

1565 [T8/48:13] 1566 [08 /48:3-4] [au:]有关市建局在现阶段的角色,亦有几点值得关注。正如政府所指出的,市建局“只提供有限的协助进行重建”:[1812] 1567 [T8/48:10] 1568 [T13/11:6-9] 1569 [T13/15:15-22] 1570 陈逸豪马修 WS§§19-21 [WS1/434] 1571 [E1-1/1508] 1572 陈逸豪马修 WS§§22-23 [WS1/435]

市建局完全缺乏对委任国际建筑师的监督,错失了减少围标风险的机会。扶轮社是法定的监 察机构,其任务是检查建筑物并决定需要进行哪些维修。如果一个腐败的注册检验人员(RI) 被安插,辛迪加 C4. 招标程序中指定鸿毅为顾问

截至 2019 年底,鸿毅已完成实物检验。鸿毅如期出具检验报告。2019 年 12 月 9 日,沈奎中先生(作为委任的注册会计师)向审控组提交检验报告及表格 MBI 3,报告楼宇需要维修。 1574

下一阶段要求业主指定一名建筑师来设计和监督维修项目。1362.1.2020 年 1 月 2 日,iio 发 布了顾问角色的招标。市建局在其网站张贴招标公告,但并未提供任何实质协助。收到1575 1362.2.35 份标书。根据市建局公布的订明修葺阶段的投标价格摘要,鸿毅是 35 家投标者中 第 11 低的投标。投标价格为港币 308,000 元。值得注意的是,鸿毅的出价远低于约 55 万港 元的平均投标价格。1576 1362.3. 30.8 万港元的投标价格细目显示,24.8 万港元已分配给与 MBIS 有关的维修顾问工作。拨款如下:1577 (a) 28 000 港元,用于 15 天的初步规划;(b)港币 40,000 元,供 23 天拟备投标文件;

(d) 港币 20,000 元,用于 9 天草拟修葺工程合约;

(e) 68 天的检查和监督费用为港币 100,000 元;和

(f) 跟进工作 15 天的费用为港币 28,000 元。

  1. 4. 鸿毅建议在 MBIS 维修阶段共 149 天的工作费用为 248,000 港元,实际费率为每日 1,664 港元。鸿毅在其投标书中表示,RI 将亲自进行与 MBIS 维修有关的总共 46 天的工作。1578

1573 [T21/45:31] 1574 [1-2/1881, 2558, 3245, 3977];1-3/4738, 5575, 6436, 7276为期 19 天的投标分析和咨询费用为 32,000 港元; 1575 陈逸豪马修 WS§31 [WS1/436] 1576 市建局拟备的投标价格摘要[E1-4/8317] 1577 [E1-4/8281-8282] 1578 [e1-4/8281] 1362.8. 从 2020 年 1 月开始招标,到 EGM 于 2021 年 12 月 11 日任命顾问,这段时间有很大的延迟, 间隔了近两年。置邦的郑女士表示,这一延误主要是由于 COVID-19 大流行的限制,禁止举行大型业主大会。[1825]

  1. 5. 鸿毅还试图证明低费用的合理性:在其 2020 年 2 月 28 日致 IO 的信中,1579解释说,由于参与了订明检验,它已经熟悉宏福苑网站。
  2. 6. 作为顾问任命的招标程序的一部分,鸿毅于 2020 年 1 月 15 日签署了进一步的道德承诺要求声明和反串谋投标确认书。1580
  3. 7. 2021 年 12 月 11 日,业主举行了业主特别大会。他们投票指定鸿毅作为顾问,合同于 2021

年 12 月 22 日执行。鸿毅获得 4,636 票(56.69%),亚军获得 2,851 票(34.86%)。1581

Constructive 公司秘书,直至 2012 年辞职,并于 2014 年加入鸿毅董事会。 1365.1. 同样,鸿毅的创始人之一据说在 2006 年创立了鸿毅,次年辞职,然后创立了 VIM,后者后 来在 2020 年提交了 45000 港元的宏福苑咨询报价(该轮最低报价)。

  1. 2. 陈兆华, 2017 年辞职的 Mega Consultant 前董事,于 2023 年 2 月被任命为鸿毅的董事,并

于 2023 年 12 月再次辞职。1583

1579 [E1-4/8399] 1580 [E1-4/8379];(e1 - 4/8359 - 8360);两份文件均非沈葵涌先生或任何其他扶轮社员签署。 1581 [G1-2/1479-1480]

1582 例如,报道在宏福苑调查 1 |查阅近 2000 文件追踪投标商影子关连逾三成对手是前同事(“宏福苑调查 1 |回顾近 2000 个文档 , 跟 踪 竞 标 者 “ 影子连接 ”: 超过 30% 的竞争对手是前同事 ”), 集体 ,2026 年 3 月 20

日,https://thecollectivehk.com/宏福苑调查 1 |查阅近-2000 -文件% E3 % 80% 80 追踪投标商影子关连/。这些是咨询投 标[E1-4/8317]的投标人 5 号、14 号和 22 号。 1583 [WS2/1298]

  1. 3. 更令人不安的是,有报道称,鸿毅在其他 8 个庄园的投标失败,其中 7 个庄园的投标中,

有 5 家公司反复与鸿毅一起出现——这种模式表明,这个问题并不局限于宏福苑。

有必要在现阶段回到市建局的角色,特别是考虑到证据中存在潜在的操纵投标的迹象: 1366.1. 陈茂波作证说,市建局的参与亦只限于将三十五份投标书辑录成“投标价格摘要”。 他承认市建局只提供数字比较,即使价格完全不合理,他们也会保持沉默。1584 1366.2. 当被问及市建局为何没有提醒业主,如此规模的项目,30 万 8 千港元的出价低得令人怀疑时, 陈茂波解释说,市建局刻意避免评估顾问费用在商业上是否合理。他解释说,他们“不会阻碍[IO]选择任何顾问……这是他们的自主权”。他进一步承认,他没有考虑鸿毅是否可能亏损经营,并指出评估顾问定价的串谋投标风险并不属于市建局的职权范围,市建局“不会考虑” 任何基于这些数字的“玩忽职守或围标的风险”。1585 1586 1366.3. 黄志光亦承认,市建局虽然为承建商的投标提供独立的成本估算,但并没有为顾问公司提供相应的成本估算。更重要的是,他观察到 Smart Tender 没有机制来防止顾问和承建商之间的勾结,他说:“我们对勾结无能为力……在这一点上,我们没有能力覆盖这些”()。1587 1588

2020 年 5 月 11 日至 13 日期间,管理委员会和 ISS 的代表会见了包括鸿毅在内的 14 个投标 人。市建局并没有参加这些面试,也没有被邀请参加面试,也没有收到关于这 14 家公司入 围的原因或面试如何进行的信息。1589 1590

在 2021 年 12 月 11 日举行的 EGM 上,业主以 56.69%的多数票投票决定任命鸿毅作为顾问进 行维修工程。1591咨询合同于 2021 年 12 月 22 日由鸿毅和 IO 签署。市建局任志刚出席会议, 但只回答有关政府资助的问题。他作证说,市建局代表必须先于居民离开房间 1592

1584 Matthew WS§32 [WS1/436];(T21/11:8-10) 1585 [T21/13:16-19] 1586 [T21/9:18] 1587 [T21/76:28-30]对顾问进行讨论和投票。因此,市建局并没有参与评估顾问公司甄选过程的公正性,把决定权几乎完全交给业主。[1837] 1588 [T21/53:7-15] 1589 陈一何马修 WS§§35,38 [WS1/437] 1590 [T21/6:7-10] 1591 [G1-2/1478-1481]

C5. 招标程序中指定 PC&E 为总承建商

  1. 这一进程的下一阶段涉及任命总承建商。与选择承建商及顾问公司的过程不同,主要承建商的招标程序是根据市建局的 Smart Tender 计划进行的。
  2. 在这方面,鸿毅作为顾问负责起草招标规则,对竞争的建筑公司进行评估,并对承建商的工 作进行监督。居民有权依靠鸿毅获得独立的、专业的建议——正如下面的证据所表明的那样, 这个前提经不起推敲。
  3. 鸿毅于 2022 年 8 月 23 日向市建局提交招标文件初稿。1593市建局于 2022 年 9 月 29 日收到由鸿毅提交的工程成本估算报告,该报告由沈葵宗先生签署。1594这些文件已传递给 RS 测量师。
  4. 鸿毅的RI 代表沈奎锺先生于 2022 年 7 月 15 日逝世。然而,市建局及测量师在收到据称由沈

先生签署的工程造价估算报告时,并不知悉沈先生的死讯。1595 1596

  1. 1. 审查鸿毅的投标文件草案是否存在差异、遗漏或技术缺陷,特别是在投标文件的工程范围内是否遗漏了 MBIS 规定的强制性维修工程;和
  2. 2. 将 RS 测量师自己的独立成本估算与鸿毅的成本估算进行比较,标记差异为 30%或更多的项目。
  3. 关于《标前评估报告(第一部分)》,请注意以下几点:市建局的证据是,测量师并没有评估投标文件拟稿是否包括任何多余的工作。由此可见,RS Surveyors 并没有告知 IO 是否鸿毅可能故意扩大工程范围以抬高合同价格。1374.2.RS 测量师的评估仅基于目视检查,没有任何测试或实验室分析,也没有覆盖隐藏或无法进入的位置。1597 1374.3. 标前评估报告第 4 段提

1592 [E1-4/8352-8411] 1593 陈逸豪马修 WS§41 [WS1/438] 1594 [E1-4/8578-8579] 1595 [T21/17:17-26] 1596 [O2/831] 1597 标前评估报告(第一部分)§§3.3-3.4 [E1-4/8599]

供的测量师成本评估为港币 224,916,383 元。这是其最初估计的 102,077,704 港元的两倍多。 RS 测量师在鸿毅的基础上解释了这一增长 1598 1599 1600

在 2022 年 11 月 25 日,招标前评估报告(第一部分)已提交给法团,但报告第 4 段载有注册测量师的独立成本估算。为了防止围标, IO、鸿毅和所有潜在的承建商都保留了这一段。 1601

鸿毅在考虑了标前评估报告(第一部分)后,于 2022 年 12 月 30 日向法团及市建局提交了修订后的标书初稿。1602

根据宏福苑的前身管理委员会,由 2023 年 1 月 19 日起,招标文件及市建局的评估报告(理解为标前评估报告(第一部分))的副本,已放置于八座大厦的大堂内。1603

在二零 2023 年三月四日的业主特别大会上,宏福苑的业主确认投标文件,并由市建局及测量师进行最后覆核。1604

同时,鸿毅向市建局及市建局建议其标书评分准则:1379.1,供随后的标书分析阶段使用。建议的投标承建商“公司背景”评分标准包括以下方面的评分:(i)获得许可证、ISO 认证、财务报表和资金证明;(ii)有大型合约工程的经验;(iii)律师的确认 1379.2. 市建局任志刚先生于二零 2023 年三月十五日透过电邮,就鸿毅建议的评分准则的措辞发表意见。市建局的陈茂波作证说,这些意见是他与任志刚讨论后的结果,并只基于评分准则的措辞和时间表。1605 1606 1379.3. 陈茂波证实,市建局不会就评分标准是否有效、合理或符合惯例发表评论。1607

1598 [T21/19:27-20:12] 1599 标前评估报告(第 1 部)§4 [E1-4/8600] 1600 初步评估报告[E1-1/1474] 1601 陈逸豪马修 WS§§46-47 [WS1/439] 1602 (e1 - 4/8613 - 8758);陈逸豪马修 WS§49 [WS1/439] 1603 [G1-2/1505] 1604 [E1-4/8761] 1605 [T21/22:18-30]方案,[1859],并附上一份基于最终招标文件的独立造价估算。在独立造价估算中:[1860] 1606 (e1 - 4/8762 - 8764) 1607 [T21/23:32-33]

2023 年 3 月 17 日,IO 的管理委员会召开会议,讨论并批准了鸿毅提出的投标评分标准。会议记录显示,市建局已被征询意见,但对整体评分架构没有意见。1608

市建局已于 2023 年 3 月 27 日向市建局提交最终投标文件1609及认可的投标评分准则。1610

在 2023 年 4 月 19 日,测量师发出标前评估报告(第二部分),确认投标文件符合市建局在 “综合楼宇复修援助计划”下的要求

  1. 1. 住宅测量师根据外墙工程选择的三个方案,评估翻新工程的成本。至于业主后来选择的方

案(即方案三),项目总成本估计约为 3.6 亿港元。1611

  1. 2. 独立造价估算包含一些警告,包括 RS Surveyors 的成本估算不能完全依赖,仅供一般参考。

1612

独立造价估算于 2023 年 7 月 4 日装在密封信封内放入市建局投标箱,待开标后开封。1613

市建局于 2023 年 5 月 16 日在 Smart Tender 电子平台刊登招标公告,并向所有注册承建商网站发出招标公告。最终,99 家承建商下载了招标文件。1614

投标(连同RS Surveyors 的独立造价估算)已于 2023 年 7 月 5 日开标,由市建局人员及一名 独立的注册会计师监督。共有 57 家承建商提交了投标 1615

鸿毅于 2023 年 9 月 18 日向市建局和市建局提交了承建商投标分析报告的初稿。该报告据称 由吴 yeuk Wilson 先生签署。然而,1616公司注册处的记录显示,吴先生于 2023 年 12 月 12 日才加入鸿毅作为股东和董事。1617

1608 [E1-4/8773] 1609 [E1-4/8778-8939] 1610 陈逸豪马修 WS§52 [WS1/440] 1611 (e1 - 4/8947 - 8949);[T21/25:29-35]这个项目。投标书交由鸿毅进行投标分析。 1612 独立造价估算§§3.3-3.5 [e1-4/8944] 1613 陈逸豪马修 WS§§53-56 [WS1/440] 1614 陈逸豪马修 WS§54 [WS1/440] 1615 陈逸豪马修 WS§57 [WS1/440] 1616 [e3/9557] 1390。在其修订后的承建商投标分析报告(于 2023 年 12 月 11 日提交)中,[1869] 鸿毅采用了基于公司背景和价格分析的评分系统。

这才是真正有意义的一点。正如第六章所分析的,证据显示吴耀威先生并没有在宏福苑计划中进行任何实质性的注册检验人员(RI)工作,而只是签署了摆在他面前的文件。他的参与只是名义上的。

另一个问题是,市建局并没有查核竞标者之间是否有关联,亦没有调查承建商投标分析报告是否含有误导信息,包括与诉讼记录有关的信息。相反,它依赖于鸿毅来解决这些问题。我们现在要讨论的就是这个问题。 C6. 对承建商投标分析报告中定罪记录的误导性陈述

鸿毅采用 2023 年 3 月 17 日 IO 批准的投标评分标准,筛选了 14 家承建商(于 2023 年 10 月 14 日和 16 日进行)1618,并向居民展示了这些选择。这个候选名单是从一项分析和评分工作中得出的,正如现在的证据所显示的那样,这种分析和评分工作极具误导性。

在背景分析中,PC&E 在“无诉讼记录”()和“近 8 年无诉讼记录”()中获得了满分 6 分。 1619按照承建商投标分析报告的评分标准,近 8 年无诉讼可得 3 分,近 2 年出具无诉讼律师 证明可得 3 分。1620

因此,PC&E 在背景分析中获得了 20 分,其中 6 分与“无诉讼记录”有关,使其成为得分最高的投标人,也是唯一一家被评为 B 级的公司,没有一家公司被评为 a 级 1621

但现实完全不同。PC&E 在相关期间确实有诉讼和定罪记录。1393.1.劳工处每季度公布定罪 记录。这些记录显示,在 2017 年至 2023 年期间,PC&E 因违反职业安全和健康规定被定罪 24 次,包括未能防止从高处坠落和未能确保使用安全帽。1622

1617 [WS2/1298];参考 Ng Yeuk Wilson 先生的 WhatsApp 消息,表明他自 2023 年 3 月 9 日起成为鸿毅的股东和董事 [A2/170]。 1618 市建局并没有参加这些面试,但认为面试是招标程序的重要一环[T21/27:27-28:14]。 1619 [e1-4/8971] 1393.2. 此外,在 2023 年 8 月,也就是在提交承建商投标分析报告文件的一个月前,屋宇署纪律委员会裁定 PC&E 在违例建筑工程方面有不当行为。PC&E 被罚款港币五万元,并禁止进行小型工程四个月。该命令已在政府宪报及屋宇署网页刊登。[1874] 1620 [E1-4/8969] 1621 [E1-4/8994]

如果承建商投标分析报告反映了 PC&E 真实的诉讼和定罪历史,那么它的背景分数将减少 6 分,降至 14 分。尽管 PC&E 在价格上被评为 A 级,但其他 20 多家竞标者也是如此。夸大的背景分数对鸿毅推荐 PC&E 作为“首选”有实质性的(如果不是决定性的)影响。

特别令人不安的是,有证据表明,在报告发布之前,承建商投标分析报告中关于 PC&E 的定罪记录被故意更改。1395.1.根据鸿毅的项目经理、承建商投标分析报告第一版的起草者洪 锡杰先生的警方证人陈述,他后来审阅的版本已被更改:删除了有关 PC&E 诉讼和负面新闻报道的内容,其诉讼得分已从零改为满分。1623 1395.2. 如果洪先生的说法属实,这表明鸿毅的 Wong Hap Yin Jason 故意删除了 PC&E 的定罪历史,并修改了其诉讼评分,以确保 PC&E 排名第一。

一个公共记录的问题——PC&E 的定罪——可以用这种方式操纵,这是非同寻常的。如果不能信任承建商和顾问对基本事实的坦诚,政府必须考虑加强其监督和执法机制。居民永远不应该被置于这样的境地:他们可能在基本的、可公开获取的信息(如定罪记录)上被误导。

1397. 这就引出了市建局的角色。

市建局的证据是,该局并没有独立核实彭建熙的定罪或违纪纪录。它没有查阅屋宇署的宪报 公告或劳工处公开的定罪记录。相反,它接受了一份日期为 2023 年 3 月 7 日的律师事务所Messrs Pansy Leung Tang & Chua 的信,信中称PC&E“在过去七年中没有被业主立案法团和管理公司起诉的记录”。1624

这封信的遗漏之处引人注目。它的起草框架很窄,以避免提及 PC&E 在同一七年期间的纪律调查结果和安全定罪,以及任何其他不是由业主立案法团或管理公司进行的诉讼。从本质上讲,这是一份措辞谨慎的声明,它掩盖的东西比它揭示的要多。

1622 [d1/1927 - 1931];从 2001 年至 2025 年 11 月,PC&E 因违反职业安全和健康法规被起诉 114 次,并被定罪 99 次: [D1/1964]。 1623 [C1-1/78-79] 1624 [E1-1/903]

  1. 3. 黄志光最初声称,市建局“不知道是否有可靠的市场来源提供完整的检控及定罪纪录”,因此“没有留意其他投标者是否……提供虚假信息”。当有人向他提出屋宇署确实会公布定罪记录时,他最终接受,如果市建局去看的话,可以很容易地找到这些记录。1627 1628
  2. 4. 火灾发生后,市建局指示另一间律师事务所在大厦大厦进行适当的诉讼搜查。该搜索返回

了 108 个结果,其中大部分是对劳工和安全违法行为的判决和判决。但是,这些信息在事 件发生后可以很容易地获得,这一事实强调了在事件发生前也可以很容易地获得。 1629 C7. 宏福苑招标承建商之间的联系

  1. 有媒体报道称,在修订后的承建商投标分析报告第 4 至 6 页列出的 57 个投标人中,1630中有几个似乎与最终被选中的承建商 PC&E 有关联。1631举例:

(“超级赞”)。原名“PC&E”

(国际)有限公司”,其前身与 PC&E 的名称相同,只是增加了“国际”。该公司于 2015 年更名, 当时林卓宣(Lam Cho Sun)作为投资者加入。公司注册处的文件显示,林先生的注册地址为殷锦女士(盈科电器董事及大股东侯华健先生的妻子)或其公司工具所拥有的物业。Mega Praise 自己的注册办公室同样位于一处通过 b 张公司结构拥有的房产内。

1625 [T21/72:25-28] 1626 [T21/33:19] 1627 [T21/75:5-8] 1628 [T21/73:27-34] 1629 黄世王彼得 WS§76 [WS1/425] 1630 [e3/9560-9562] 1401.1. 兆赞建设工程有限公司 1631 例如,正如《IO 起诉业主:富嘉大厦重大翻新;PC&E 的 Hau Wa Kin 同时代表中标者和落标者》,HK01, 2026 年 1 月 23 日所报道的那样,网址:https://www.hk01.com/

  1. 2. 民星营造有限公司(“Man Sing”)。其大股东谭志文(Tam Chee Man Richie)先生于 2018 年

9 月与侯先生共同成立富盈发展有限公司(“富盈”),各持有 50%股份。富盈与万盛拥有相同的注册办事处。至于万成的少数股东(黄小雄),他似乎成立了另一家公司,而刘亦菲是该公司的股东。 1401.3. 广建& 伟利建筑工程有限公司(“广建”)。其中一名董事梁炳耀先生自 2005 年左右起担任 PC&E 董事达 9 年之久。在大约四年的时间里,他同时担任 PC&E 和wide 的董事。

人证词。他的解释可以概括如下。 1632 1402.1. 大型赞美。Hau 表示,他与 Mega Praise 之间的关系仅限于房东/租客关系(§27)。这一解释明显缺乏说服力。他没有解释 Mega Praise 是如何从他那里租用场地的,也没有解释这种关系是如何产生的。在同一份宏福苑招标中,一家从侯耀辉那里租用物业的公司恰好也是竞标者,这很难被认为仅仅是巧合。 1402.2. 人唱歌。侯先生说,万星的董事谭志文里奇先生曾是他的雇主,侯先生后来离职创立了PC&E。这并不能解释为什么多年后,他与谭咏麟共同成立了富盈公司。他证实,他的妻子投资了一家与万盛集团少数股东有关的公司,但没有提供进一步的解释(§28)。 1402.3. Widely。Hau 先生承认梁炳耀先生在 2005 年至 2014 年期间担任PC&E 的董事,但他说他们的关系恶化了,梁炳耀先生离开了 PC&E,他将其描述为竞争对手(§26)。那是赤裸裸的断 言。值得注意的是,广益公司负责牛头角安基苑的大型翻新工程,鸿毅是获委任的顾问公司。 1633

1632 [WS2/1310-1321] 1633 据媒体报道:参见例如:“宏福苑火:在鸿毅担任顾问的 Kay Court 上,今天早上突然删除了其棚网 -前一天的示范燃烧未能熄灭”),HK01, 2025 年 12 月 2 日,可在 https://www.hk01.com/上获取。 1634 媒体报道的:例如宏见福苑安基苑同一顾问评分迥异入标公司称无交过资料(“房地产违规行为:相同的顾问给了不 同的分数宏福苑和凯法院”;招标公司说他们从未提交信息),HK01, 2026 年 1 月 14 日,可以在https://www.hk01.com/01 侦查/ 60302812 /。

  1. 1. 新开明建筑工程有限公司。其董事兼股东之一 Li Chik Hoi 先生曾与 Hau 先生共同担任炽烈边缘有限公司(“炽烈边缘”)的董事兼股东。
  2. 2. Sunarts(集团)工程有限公司(信豪(集团)工程有限公司)。该公司的董事兼股东之一崔万明

(Choi Man Ming)也曾与侯耀辉一起担任《炽热边缘》的联合董事兼股东。

图 9-1:侯华健先生与其他竞标者宏福苑 1635的关系图

  1. 1. 为了在不引起怀疑的情况下操纵投标,辛迪加必须制造竞争激烈的假象。CC 将这种做法称为“掩护投标”,即一名策划者指定一名“主要人物”中标,而几名“助手”则提交人为抬高或故意不具竞争力的报价,通常遵循被称为“家庭作业”的精确定价指示。1636
  2. 2. 在这里,57 个竞标者的存在表面上表明竞争是健康的。实际上,这种竞争可能是虚幻的。这些证据令人怀疑,一个财团在投标箱中塞满了附属公司,使其能够控制价差并操纵结果。

1635 [A2/158] 1636 原申请通知书(CTEA 1/2026),日期为 2026 年 3 月 25 日§29 [U2/86]

在修订后的承建商投标分析报告中,鸿毅没有披露各承建商之间的联系。也没有证据表明承建商本身披露了他们的相关角色或利益。

当被问及为何市建局没有发现这些公司之间的关联时,陈茂波表示,市建局没有责任检查这 些公司之间的关联,并补充说,市建局不会把这 57 份标书“放在显微镜下”。1637

在二〇二六年三月,律政司根据《竞争条例》,就十一份为 BMR 工程提供建筑服务的投标展开法律程序。宏福苑投标就是其中之一。1638 1408.1. 在原始通知中,CC 声称张熠权精心策划了围标安排,旨在使他的一家公司俊豪建筑工程有限公司(“Smart Goal”),1639 赢得宏福苑招标。被指控的阴谋涉及张先生的同伙向竞争对手分发定价指示(“作业”),以便 Smart Goal 最终在这些竞标者中获得最低的出价(§§25- 27,134 -137)。1640 1641

  1. 2. 例如,CC 指控艺林建筑工程有限公司提交的出价与张先生的同伙指示其提交的“家庭作业” 价格相匹配(§135)。祥利建筑公司提交的投标中的个别价格项目也与“作业”(§134)相匹配。1642 1643
  2. Smart Goal 在竞标中输给了 PC&E。总商会的指控仍未得到证实,正在进行法律诉讼。然而, CC 的指控引发了一个严重的问题,即宏福苑投标是否被多个串通投标方作为目标。如果这些指控成立,将意味着投标书向业主展示了一幅虚假的竞争图景——竞争领域的表象本身就是操纵的产物。

C8. 2024 年 1 月 28 日在特别大会上的争论

1637 [T21/26:29-31] 1638 [U2/83-84] 1639 [U2/84] 1640 [U2/84-86, 122-125] 1641 Smart Goal 在承建商投标分析报告 [E1-4/9081] 1410.1 中被列为投标人#18。鸿毅于 2 日和 6 日举行了咨询会议 (http://www.tingplany.咨) 1642 [u2/122 - 123];承建商投标分析报告 [E1-4/9081]中第 17 号投标人 1643 [u2/123 - 124];承建商投标分析报告 [E1-4/9084]中投标人#51 1644 [G1-2/1505–1506]

2023 年 10 月,会上解释了承建商投标分析报告和改造工程。民政事务总署的何惠贤女士证实,她从民政事务总署的记录得知,谘询会已在特别会议之前举行。1645 1410.2. 2023 年 12 月 19 日,将承建商投标价格总额一览表分发到每户的邮箱。记录显示,根据鸿 毅的评分,PC&E 是与公司背景相关的标准中排名最高的投标人。1646 1647

  1. 3. 另一次业主简介会于 2024 年 1 月 6 日举行。所有 57 家承建商的投标资料已于 2024 年 1 月

15 日至 17 日在法团会议室展出。2024 年 1 月 18 日,鸿毅代表回答业主查询。

  1. 1. 业主特别大会在庄园的篮球场举行。下午二时,司仪宣布业主特别会议开始,并指出共有二百九十三名业主出席,并达到法定人数。他表示,由于时间紧张,不会举行问答环节,有出席的业主对此表示不满。
  2. 2. 鸿毅向业主讲解 Smart Tender 流程及评分机制,包括公司背景考核、招标定价、面试评分。会场内的布告栏也显示了价格总额一览表。1649
  3. 3. 一开始出席会议的人数,无论是亲自出席还是代表出席,大约有 293 人。然而,在计票时,

出现了 570 张选票。一些居民报告说,他们没有委任任何代理,但代理表格却存在,声称

1645 [t20/56:7-15] [qh]居民的投诉,以及民政事务总署关于特别监察委员会[1901]的报告显示,会议是在有争议的情况下进行的: 1646 [G1-1/1020]; [H1-1/583] 1647 [G1-1/1018-1020]; [H1-1/581-583] 1648 [T5/9:8-17] 1649 [G1-1/1026-1028]

已获得他们的授权。居民还报告说,他们不允许在特别会议上提问;不允许有问答环节。 1650

  1. 4. 据称,区议员黄碧娇及其团队以协助申请资助为借口,向居民拉票,而实际上是收集代理

人。例如,冯耀丹作证说,有人看见黄碧侨女士的团队成员在会场排队 1651

  1. 5. 居民们还对 PC&E 的纪律历史表示担忧。一名居民于 2024 年 2 月 21 日致信屋宇署,表示居民已在网上发现PC&E 的牌照过期及纪律处分情况,但法团或顾问并未披露。1652
  2. 6. 居民还观察到PC&E 参与了沙田翠湖花园的围标案。1653
  1. 7. 特别会议记录记录了鸿毅在会议上的解释。鸿毅指出,每个投标人的许可证到期信息已在

承建商投标分析报告中列出,截止日期为 2023 年 7 月 4 日。经进一步审查,截至 2024 年 1 月 23 日,全达建筑有限公司和Polyfair Construction & 宝发建筑工程有限公司两个投标人的许可证不再存在,而 9 个投标人已获得续期。鸿毅建议业主可以自由投票给任何一家公司, 但两家牌照已失效的投标者除外。1654 1413.8. 根据市建局陈茂昌先生的证词,在特别会议期间,黄合贤先生提出了盈科电子的牌照状况, 并作出了解释。然而,陈振聪并没有回忆起正在讨论的盈科电子的诉讼或纪律处分记录。由 于临时政府不允许提问,一些不满的居民被保安建议离开。同样的效果, 1655

  1. 特别代表大会进行表决。业主以 5,971 票(80.5%)通过了方案 3(拆除所有现有的外部覆层并安装新的马赛克瓷砖)。通过 3,866 票(54.79%),他们投票指定 PC&E 为主承建商,第二名获得 2,044 票(28.97%)。合约金额约为港币 3.3 亿元。1656 1657 1658 1659

1650 二零一四年二月九日及四月五日送交民政事务总署的投诉[g1 -1/ 633,716 -717] 1651 梅少峰, 罗晓枫和余智荣。 1652 [J1-3/6229-6230] 1653 [J1-3/6226] 1654 [G1-2/1498] 1655 [T21/30:10-32:10] 1656 [G1-2/1504] 1657 (g1 - 2/1495 - 1504) 1658 [G1-2/1497] 1659 (g1 - 2/1498 - 1500)

投票结果显示,业主赞成“方案 3”,即最昂贵、最广泛的翻新方案,而不是较便宜的方案。有人提出疑问,为什么宏福苑业主大声疾呼翻修成本高昂,却投票选择最昂贵的维修方案。李国雄对这一结果是否通过代理投票强行通过表示担忧。1660

投票记录显示,分别持有 583 票和 535 票的两个人投票给了 PC&E。由于只有现任主席邓国权先生和现任副主席陈德成先生持有如此数量的代理投票(1661),因此可以推断,这些票是由他们投给 PC&E 的。1662

在 EGM 之后,鸿毅起草了最终的工程合同。工程合同于 2024 年 4 月 16 日执行,最终合同金额为 制备过程。政府对投诉的回应

1418. 在特别会议后,居民向多个政府部门提出投诉。

屋宇署的立场是,宏福苑作为一个前公共屋邨,属于 ICU 的管辖范围。市建局在 Smart Tender 计划下招标所产生的任何事宜,均不在其法定职权范围内。1663

民政事务总署收到了有关虚假代理和操纵投标的投诉,但没有进行调查。相反,它将投诉转介给市建局、行政协调会,甚至转回法团,尽管法团本身就是投诉的对象。居民被建议寻求 独立的法律意见。例如,民政事务总署于 2024 年 3 月 19 日发出电邮,将投诉转交屋宇署, 并要求屋宇署跟进。同样,民政事务总署于 2024 年 2 月 16 日告诉另一名投诉人,他的关 注应向法团提出。1664 1665

1660 [t13/56:31-36] hk $336,616,277。工程合约由唐国权先生(代表法团)、侯华健先生(代表盈科及电器)及黄合贤先生(代表鸿毅)签署。[1919] [1918] 1661 邓国权先生获得 144 个单位的代理投票,合共 1,865 票;陈德成先生获得 48 个单位的代理投票,共 627 票;次 高的代表投票由单丽梅女士获得,她共获得 12 个单位的 151 票。 1662 [N1/9] 1663 E.g. [J1-3/6229] 1664 [G1-1/633] 1665 [J1-3/6245]

  1. 2. 当被问及为何市建局没有对此进行调查时,个案经理陈茂昌解释说,核实顾问的分析是否含有误导或不准确的信息,“不在市建局的调查范围内”。市建局回复居民说,就过去检控承办商一事,“市建局不会取代顾问的角色”。1666 1667
  2. 3. 市建局局长黄志光亦表示,现时并无可靠的市场来源来查核犯罪纪录,而查核犯罪纪录亦

不在市建局的职权范围内。他表示市建局完全仰赖顾问的评估。1668 1669 1421.4. 李开元认为,这些标准缺乏可信度,被“严重扭曲”,似乎是为了偏袒某些投标人而设计的。 任志刚的回应是建议任何有关准则的问题应直接向顾问咨询。 1670

  1. 5. 对于那些最关心顾问的中立性的居民来说,这根本不是答案。当被问及他是否考虑过这一点时
  2. 由于任何部门都没有令人满意的解决方案,业主在 2024 年 2 月至 5 月期间援引了他们的权利,并召集了所需的 5%的人,要求召开紧急会议,重新选举管理委员会,解雇物业经理, 并推翻工程合同。1671主席邓国权先生拒绝在 14 天的法定期限内召开会议。居民的征用最终

在 2024 年 5 月 3 日之前的某个时间被撤回。1672

1666 [E1-4/9456] 1667 [T21/34:13-15]问题,任志刚回应市区重建局“受职权范围限制”。[1929] 1668 [T21/72:27] 1669 王世金彼得 WS§76 [WS1/425] 1670 [E3/9829] 1671 陈皓文 WS§§22-23 [WS1/510-511] 1672 [G1-1/715]在某种程度上不利于那些寻求合规的人,并使他们没有实际的补救措施。 1673 大埔民政事务处于 2024 年 2 月至 5 月共接获 9 宗投诉:陈孝文 WS§26 [WS1/512];(g1 - 1/632 - 719)。 1674 [G1-1/1312]

会的主席负责召集会议。他补充说,根据现行法例,如主席拒绝召开会议,业主应向土地审裁处提出诉讼,并“向土地审裁处申请”法庭命令。1675 1423.2. 其影响是结构性的:监管框架将诉讼的责任推给了个人房主(通常是外行),以行使其作为业主的基本权利。在存在有组织抵抗的情况下,这一框架可以发挥作用 1423.3. 至于民政事务总署的法定权力,邝其志指出,民政事务总署严格把这项权力视为“最后手段”。他的证据是,民政事务总署必须在公众利益和尊重“私有产权”之间“取得平衡”。1676

  1. 负责处理宏福苑居民投诉的民政事务总署联络主任何伟贤女士证实,她曾四次致函主席,并与主席口头联络。她指出,主席说找不到地点是妨碍他举行会议的一个困难。当被问到“如果主席拒绝召开会议,你就无能为力了吗?”, Or 女士回答说:“是的,你可以这么说。”1677 1678

1425. 业主团体的召集人最终撤回了召开会议的要求。

C10. 2024 年 9 月 6 日更换管理委员会型

  1. 在二零 2024 年六月,代表业主立案法团的律师致函业主,要求业主在七个月内分六期缴付

BMR 工程的款额,分别为 156,602 港元(第 3 及 7 个单位)、169,654 港元(第 2、4、6 及 8 个单位)及 182,702 港元(第 1 及 5 个单位)。1679

长付款时间表。邓国权先生再次未能在法定的 14 天期限内召开会议。1680 1675 [T24/8:8-15] 1676 居民们在附近的一个操场上设立了摊位,收集 5%的签名,以强制举行会议。[1939] 1677 [T20/57:33-35] 1678 [T20/58:28-59:1] 1679 [G1-2/2202] 1680 Kong 张 Fat WS§23 [WS23/2620];[G1-2/2215]业主会议,成功安排在 2024 年 9 月 6 日举行。[1945]

居民们再次向民政事务总署求助。1429.1.在二 oo2024 年六月至九月期间,民政事务总署辖下的大埔民政事务处共接获 19 宗书面投诉,涉及会议程序、工程范围及委托书违规行为。 其中 7 个投诉是专门针对 5%的请愿被忽视的。1681 1429.2. 民政事务总署联络主任何伟贤女士作证说,民政事务总署在回应这些投诉时,“采取了与二月时相同的方法”。他们又给唐先生发了四封顾问信,口头督促他遵纪守法。1682 1429.3. 廖女士表示,在民政事务总署的追问 下,邓先生声称他找不到一个足够大的场地,以容纳预计会出席的大量业主。1683 1429.4. 为了解决这个问题,民政事务总署与附近一所学校合作,租用中华基督教会冯良吉纪念中学的礼堂 1684

2024 年 9 月 6 日的会议出席人数空前,有 1243 名业主亲自或通过代理出席。由于学校礼堂太小,民政事务总署不得不建议在学校有盖的操场设置户外直播,以容纳过多的观众。多名区议员亦出席,包括黄碧侨女士及梅少峰先生。1685 1686 1687

现任主席邓国权获得 187 个单位共 2,414 张代表票。现任立法会副主席陈德成获得 91 个单位 共 1,185 张代表票。徐文辉先生获 26 张代表票,合共 342 票;黄碧侨女士获 24 张代表票, 合共 318 票。1688

最终,业主以 8,717 票(56.54%)赞成和 6,701 票(43.46%)反对投票取代管理委员会。现 任主席、副主席及其代理人本人占反对免职票数的一半以上。 1689

随着会议的进行,邓国权先生试图使会议停止。1690 1433.1. 奥尔女士作证说,在晚上 9 点 35 分,在仅仅完成了两个议程项目之后,管理委员会宣布

1681 陈浩文 WS§26 [WS1/512, 521];(g1 - 1/720 - 855) 1682 [G1-1/1319] 1683 [T20/58:28-35] 1684 [T20/58:8] 1685 [G1-2/1515] 1686 [T20/59:2-4] 1687 [T20/64:24-25]学校场地租赁将于晚上 10 点到期,因此会议的其余部分需要推迟。 1688 [N1/1-5] 1689 [G1-1/1045] 1690 [G1-1/1045]; [T20/61:32-62:21]

  1. 2. 居民们表示反对,要求会议继续进行。民政事务总署职员随即介入,与学校协商,将场地租期延长至晚上十一时。
  2. 3. 尽管会议延期,但唐英年和几名区议员中途离席,放弃了会议。梁女士作证说,民政事务总署职员随后建议其余业主援引《建筑物管理条例》附表 3 第 3(1)(c)段的法定故障安全措施, 该措施允许业主在主席缺席的情况下选举另一名主席。
  3. 4. 民政事务总署指示居民遵守这项条文,使会议得以在邓先生不在场的情况下合法地继续进行。
  4. 如上所述,业主投票决定解散旧的管理委员会,并选出一个由徐文辉先生领导的新的 14 人委员会。孔先生是前管理委员会唯一一位仍留在委员会的成员。1691
  5. 徐先生的证据是以前的管理委员会没有任何形式的移交。文件没有相互传递,两个委员会之间的关系仍然很差。1692
  6. 新的管理委员会继承了已经执行的工程合同。因此,徐先生认为不可能移除 PC&E 或鸿毅。虽然新的管理委员会对 PC&E 和鸿毅不满意,但他们别无选择,只能依靠他们来完成改造工程。1693
  7. 在这些限制条件下,新的管理委员会设法协商减少某些工作项目。2024 年 11 月 13 日,他们与 PC&E 和鸿毅讨论了从装修工程范围中减少单个项目的问题。减少的工作项目最终在 2025 年 3 月 21 日的业主特别大会上提交给业主。1694 1695
  8. 随着翻修工程于 2024 年 7 月 16 日正式开始,投诉不断浮出水面,反映出居民中越来越多的不安。除消防安全方面的投诉在其他章节中处理外,有关工程的投诉包括:1438.1. 反对繁

1691 [G1-2/1516-1517] 1692 [T14/27:1-8] 1693 [T14/52:12-20] 1694 [G1-2/1525] 1695 [H1-3/6033-6036]全程未检查。无论从合同合规、安全、定价还是居民投诉的角度来看,上述模式都揭示了一种监督关系,即承建商的利益高于业主的利益——而鸿毅旨在保护业主的利益。

重的付款时间表。1696 1438.2. 担心 PC&E 在没有咨询居民的情况下将外部瓷砖规格从马赛克瓷砖更改为不同类型的瓷砖。1697 1438.3. 反对鸿毅试图收取额外费用的工作居民认为完全在原合同范围内。1698

  1. 这些抱怨反映了一种更广泛的看法,即鸿毅似乎与 PC&E 保持一致,而不是维护其被任命为顾问的所有者的利益。在第 6 章中检查的证据证明了这种看法是正确的,该证据表明鸿毅如何放弃其作为独立顾问的角色,有效地离开了 PC&E
  2. 关于前管理委员会的另一个问题涉及陈家强先生的角色,他长期参与宏福苑的治理,被一些 居民称为“影子主席”。1440.1.陈先生曾多次担任主席、副主席和委员会成员。根据孔富发先 生的说法,虽然邓国权先生是前管理委员会的主席,但陈先生经常坐在他旁边,有效地指导 讨论、指导决策和主持会议。1699 1440.2. 孔令辉作证说,陈振聪创建了 WhatsApp 群“王福革新四方会谈”(简称“王福革新四方会谈”)。置邦的内部通信显示,置邦的黎永利先生经常复 制作为顾问的陈先生的行政草案、议程和预算,而唐先生经常以“已批准,已与 KK 讨论过” 回应置邦的询问。1700 1440.3. 虽然陈先生不是民选议员,但他在 2024 年 5 月 25 日主持了第十二届管理委员会的选举。在随后的会议中,孔令辉指出,陈振聪以“顾问”的身份出席会议, 经常调解纠纷,实际上担任事实上的主席,而唐英年则很少发言。1701 1702
  3. 4. 2024 年 8 月,当居民收到律师的来信,要求他们在紧迫的时间内支付超过 17 万港元的装

修费用后,他们提出抗议,陈振聪分发了一份题为“第 2 期 2024.08 V4.pdf”的文件,后来作 为官方的宏福苑通讯(第 2 期)发布。Kong bbbbo Fat 指出,这是一份有偏差的“民意调查”, 似乎是为了平息异见,推迟召开业主特别大会的呼吁。1703

1696 [G1-1/728] 1697 [G1-1/796] 1698 [G1-1/858-859] 1699 Kong 张 Fat 2nd WS§§80-81 [WS11/2064] 1700 [V1/251] 1701 Kong 张 Fat 2nd WS§87 [WS11/2065];[T15/9:4-27;42:31-43:10] 1702 [O2/833] 1703 Kong 张 Fat 2 WS§88 [WS11/2065];也(O2/841)

2026 年 6 月 15 日,陈考强先生向委员会提出书面答复,拒绝接受孔先生的说法。1704 1441.1. 陈振聪声称,从 2014 年起,别有用心的个人开始散布匿名指控,散发误导性传单,并试图推翻管理委员会。他解释说,他被邀请担任无薪顾问,是因为他过去的经验和他在维护业主利益方面的声誉。1441.2.他驳斥了孔炳发的批评,声称民政事务总署已证实没有程序上的 不当行为。他也叙述了与孔先生和其他人的分歧,并为自己的行为辩护,称其符合公契。值得注意的是,尽管他否认有不当行为,但他承认,招标结果的某些方面给了他一种操纵投标的“感觉”。

现有的证据集中在陈家强涉嫌在前管理委员会中扮演影子角色或施加影响,并不能证明陈家强在招标期间与 PC&E、鸿毅或其他竞标者串通。关于影子影响的指控可能暴露出前管理委员会在治理方面的脆弱性。然而,在这方面作出调查结果不在委员会的职权范围之内。 C11. 宏福苑的结论

综合这些线索,这些证据为推断招标程序中的不规则性提供了合理的基础,并合理地引起了对围标和反竞争行为的怀疑。请委员会注意到这些不正常现象和怀疑,但如上文所述,也请委员会不要就这些问题作出调查结果。

首先,鸿毅被委任为宏福苑的顾问,费用为港币 308,000 元。根据鸿毅自己估计的 184 天的 工作,这相当于每天 1,674 港元。鸿毅的费用很可能低于为这种规模的项目提供基本咨询服 务的最低成本。 1705

鸿毅以极低的出价确保了监管机构的角色,使自己处于确定工程范围和中标的关键地位,最 终获得了一份 3.36 亿港元的建筑合同。

1704 [WS21/2439-2443] 1705 (e1 - 4/8281 - 8282);在第二章中,我们注意到,仅就 MBIS 工程而言,鸿毅的投标价格细目显示,进行 149 天的工作需要 248,000 港元,即每天 1,664 港元。鸿毅招标文件中提出的维修项目。从来没有人评估过这些额外的物品是否必要。一个合理的推论是,鸿毅扩大了工程的范围,以膨胀其随后将监督的合同的价值。[1968]

这种不符合商业价值的低费用购买了对项目本身规模的控制权。合约金额由最初估计的 1.02 亿港元(为符合 MBIS 标准所需的基本维修工程)1706增加至最终价格 3.36 亿港元。RS 测量师将其估算值的增加归因于不同的和额外的

结果是鸿毅的亏损可以在下游得到弥补。没有直接证据表明任何付款或利益从 PC&E 转移到鸿毅。但正如 CC 所观察到的那样,亏损经营在商业上是没有意义的,除非顾问希望“通过其他(可能是邪恶的)手段获得报酬”。1707

甚至在宏福苑投标之前,顾问和承建商之间的勾结问题就已经很普遍了。2016 年 5 月,CC 发布了一份关于住宅建筑翻新和维护市场的研究报告:1448.1. 投诉委员会描述了一种操纵投标的做法,即顾问和承建商相互串通,使顾问赢得监督工程招标的投标,有时以极低的价格获得咨询服务,然后组织联合承建商以虚高的价格赢得装修工程的投标(第 10 条)。1708 1448.2. 统计数字显示,在评审期间,超过 65%的顾问提交的投标低于提供最基本顾问服务的估计最低成本。这表明,咨询公司可能通过极低的报价赢得项目,并随后从将工作授予特定承建商中获益(§27)。1709

委员会不应发现在宏福苑发生了这种情况。但是,上述事件的顺序与 CC 确定的操纵实践相对应:一个极低的咨询报价,一个扩大的工程范围,一个承建商赢得了虚高的下游合同。

其次,有证据表明,注册检验人员(RI)在宏福苑的作用仅仅是一个“虚拟”的作用。

首任注册检验人员(RI)长沈奎锺先生于 2022 年 7 月去世。因此,工程于 2024 年年中开始, 唯一有记录的 RI 已去世。鸿毅没有向 ICU 报告沈先生的死亡,ICU 在两年多后通过投诉发现了这一事实。事实上,工程可以在已故注册检验人员(RI)员名义上的监督下进行,这表明 该角色并不涉及实际监督。 1710 1711

1706 初步评估报告[E1-1/1474] 1707 最高法院对 IC§7(1)的书面开放[WS3/1732] 1708 [U1/11] 1709 [U1/15] 1710 [O2/831] 1711 [T22/26:1-11]

业主依靠鸿毅对投标者的评分和排名,其结果在分发给每个家庭的承建商投标价格摘要1714 中进行了复制,并于 2024 年 1 月 28 日在 EGM 会场内的公告板上展示。鸿毅也在那次 EGM 上向业主解释了公司背景的评分机制和考核。因此,投标分析和评分的完整性对业主的投票决策至关重要。 1715

  1. 2. 鸿毅编写的承建商投标分析报告未能披露 PC&E 与至少五个其他投标人的关系,如上文第C7 节根据公开记录确定的。在提交给业主的 57 家独立竞争对手中,实际上包括至少 5 家与侯华健有关的公司,而在中交所的案例中,还有第二个协调集团。
  2. 3. 更糟糕的是,证据表明鸿毅故意隐瞒 PC&E 的不良安全和法律记录,以人为地提高其分数。结果是,就其公司背景而言,PC&E 被推荐为最佳竞标者。

1712 [A2/170, 171, 172, 173] 1713 [WS10/1979];以及政府结案§§903,1008 1714 [G1-1/1018-1020]; [H1-1/581-583] 1715 [G1-1/1026-1028] 1716 [E3/9557]

D. 防止操纵投票程序

D1. 在代理收集和相关过程中缺乏保障

  1. 3. 联络专员何伟贤女士收到徐文东先生的投诉电邮,电邮中载有录音,据称录得个人

1717 [T15/3:16-4:11];江先生承认他不认识船东,亦没有参与其后的解决事宜。 1718 [T24/26:23-27, 26:31-27:2]

以不当方式获取选票。她作证说她无法打开音频文件,因此没有听。当被问及她是否跟进申诉人以获取可查阅的文件时,她说她没有。1719 1720 1461.4. 姚女士进一步作证说,她出席业主会议只是为了旁听和记录出席情况。虽然她注意到在监督投票方面存在重大争议,但她承认民政事务总署没有提供任何协助来解决这些争议。1721

  1. ISS 则认为,它的作用仅限于为会议提供行政支助。然而,在 3.3 亿港元的投标中,物业管理公司是唯一与业主保持日常联系并保管代理和投票机器的专业机构。如果 PMC 对该过程的完整性不承担责任,那么其他专业方也不承担责任:1462.1. 即使按照它自己的描述,ISS 也是负责处理所有代理投票的看门人。证据表明,这种把关功能是最小的。如上文第 1358.3 条所述,郑子英女士接受管理处只核对单位编号与登记册上的印刷名称。没有对签名进行核 查。1462.2.在宏福苑,业主在会议召开前 14 天左右以匿名方式将代理表格存入一个收集箱。代理没有在 IO 或 ISS 在场的情况下签名,并且没有人验证代理或其上签名的真实性。尽管如此,还是有简单的保护措施。委托书可能要求所有者亲自提交 1722
  2. 3. 如果保留收集箱方法,则对已提交代理的所有者的随机样本进行验证调用只会带来适度的管理负担,同时增加检测未授权代理的可能性。然而,郑女士的证据是,除非表格明显不完整,否则 ISS 不会给业主打电话核实。1723
  3. 4. 证据进一步表明,ISS 收到代理表格后,在据称提交代理表格的单位的邮箱里放了一张回复条。1724对于老年人、不知情或不定期检查邮件的居民,这种方法提供的保护很少,导致未授权的代理无法被发现。

1719 [T20/61:2-7] 1720 [G1-1/841-842]到管理处。如果代理表格是由业主以外的人提交的,管理处可以要求出示身份证明文件,并保留该文件的记录——这一步骤将阻止欺诈性的代理提交。 1721 [T20/61:21] 1722 [T14/15:12-34] 1723 [T8/48:8-10] ISS 准备的投票结果不区分亲自投票和代理投票。通过合并这些数字,ISS 使居民(或任何随后的审查人员,包括本委员会)无法确定会议由代理持有人主导的程度。虽然 ISS 当时确实没有法律义务将这些数据分开, 但考虑到代理投票固有的风险,以及透明度对保护房主的重要性,这样做显然是一种良好的做法。[1991] 1724 [T14/15:29-34]

尽管有许多居民投诉代理收款不当,但 ISS 没有跟进。郑子英女士承认她“从居民那里听说过”,但由于 ISS“没有收到任何信件”,投诉没有进入官方日志,也没有对代理程序进行审查。当被问及 ISS 是否考虑到这项耗资 3.3 亿港元的工程的规模和争议,采取了加强的保障措施时,郑汝桦回答说,我们采取了同样的措施。1725 1726

置邦的记录保存也导致缺乏透明度。在 2024 年 1 月 28 日选定承建商的EGM 之后,官方

值得注意的是,宏福苑是郑子英女士首次发布涉及如此规模翻新工程的帖子。ISS 没有向她提供关于大型翻新项目招标管理的培训或指导方针。委员会似可考虑是否适宜由置邦指派一名相对缺乏经验的干事在没有任何正式准备或支助的情况下管理一项庞大、复杂和有争议的招标程序。 1727

即使不考虑非常规代理的情况,当时的监管制度也使代理集中在少数人手中,使他们对会议的结果有很大的影响力。这是该系统的一个特点,值得仔细审查和改革。

现任主席邓国权先生是委任代表的最大单一持有人。然而,当他自己的地位受到挑战时,他没有让老板们的投票走自己的路。如上所述,他在将近六个月的时间里拒绝召开最终于2024 年 9 月 6 日举行的特别会议。

即使假设现任的管理委员会的动机与装修工程无关,证据表明,现有的建筑管理流程可以很容易地被现任者利用,以巩固他们的控制。 D2. 区议员的参与

自火灾发生以来,公众一直在讨论长期担任大埔区议员的黄碧娇女士是否参与宏福苑的事务。许多评论集中在她出席业主会议以及她对前管理委员会的影响力上。

争议并不局限于王碧侨女士。与她有关系的政界人士,包括大埔南区分区委员会委员梅小凤先生及大埔南区议员,他亦曾与黄碧娇女士一同出席多次业主会议。

1725 [T8/52:16] 1726 [T8/53:22-23] 1727 [T8/43:31-44:14]

下:她表示,她于 2021 年 11 月 17 日被任命为宏福苑管理委员会的顾问。她承认这不是正式程序的结果;她应前主席邓国权先生电话邀请。她将自己的角色描述为无偿、自愿和咨询 ——她说,这是典型的区级社区工作——并表示她没有决策权,也不需要签署利益冲突声明 (§§4-6)。 1728 1472.2. 她否认参与选择承建商、评标或编制预算。她还否认在火灾发生前认识 PC&E 或其董事侯华健先生,称她只是从事后的新闻报道中得知他的存在(§§8-12)。 1472.3. 她否认用礼物换取选票,声称她在 2022 年和 2024 年的社区礼物分配与翻新事宜无关 (§§13-15)。

  1. 4. 然而,她明确承认两次获得代理投票:2021 年 12 月 11 日会议的约 20 份代理投票,以及

2024 年 9 月 6 日会议的另外 20 份代理投票。她说,她收到这些代理权是因为一些居民在这些会议上反对以决议取代以前的管理委员会,并希望她投票反对取代这些决议。因此,她出席了两次会议并投了票。然而,她否认曾代表居民就这些会议上通过的其他决议(包括在2021 年 12 月 11 日会议上任命鸿毅为顾问的决议)投票(§§13-16)。

  1. 在黄碧桥女士作出回应后,委员会收到了合安在 2019 年 1 月 25 日(其中鸿毅被任命为 RI)、

2021 年 12 月 11 日(其中鸿毅被任命为工程顾问)、2024 年 1 月 28 日(其中 PC&E 被任命 为承建商)和 2024 年 9 月 6 日(其中前管理委员会被免职)会议上提交的委托书的记录。 1729

议上被 29 名业主(373 股未分割股份)任命为代理,在 2024 年 9 月 6 日的会议上被 24 名 1728 [WS10/2004-2010] 1729 [N1/1-14]

业主(318 股未分割股份)任命为代理。但是 Hop On 的记录中还包含一个名为“委托给黄女士代理的单位”的 Excel 文件 1730 包含 2021 年 12 月 11 日会议的 131 份代表表格,其中大部分没有将王碧桥女士列为其代理人。

债务。1731 1475.2. 前管理委员会成员冯耀丹先生表示,黄碧侨女士出席重要会议时,会由一组外界人士陪同。他回忆起试图恐吓试图说话的居民,并指出一些人在会场用塑料瓶制造噪音。冯先生进一步作证称,黄碧侨女士有广泛的关系,包括在建造业。1732 1475.3. Kong bbbbfat 指称,王碧侨女士带一队义工去敲居民的门招揽 1733 1475.4. 在大埔街市工作的黄淑兰女士作证说,经常有邻居聚集在她的摊位前,抱怨黄碧侨女士及其义工进行的代办集会活动。她说,一些老年居民只是为了避免麻烦而交出了他们的代理人。黄女士亦描述了黄碧侨的团队与其他居民在翻新事宜上的矛盾。1734 1475.5. 徐文辉先生提供了一份王碧侨女士在 2024 年 9 月 6 日会议前不久与居民谈话的录音。在该录音中,黄女士呼吁居民投票反对更换旧的管理委员会,并解释说,更换旧的管理委员会会导致项目工程延误,并可能没收市建局实施的“楼宇明亮行动 2.0”计划 20%的补贴。 1475.6. 不过,市建局的立场已由王志强澄清。他解释说,市建局并没有这样的政策,只要工程完 成,就会按照“光明楼宇 2.0 行动”的条款发放补贴,而延误并不会导致补贴金额减少。然而, 如果延误确实严重,市建局会完全取消补助金的资格。1735 1730 [n1 /10- 11,1 -2]代理。何猷龙亦作证称,黄碧侨女士在协助居民填写政府资助表格的同时,寻求他们的代理。 [2000] [1999] 1731 [T4/16:4-25] 1732 [T13/13:12-13] 1733 [T13/11:32-12:1] 1734 [T4/41:31-42:8]; [WS21/2412] 1735 [T21/75:20-76:2]

  1. 1. 王碧娇女士证实,她曾协助收集 2021 年 12 月 11 日会议的 131 份代表表格及 2024 年 9 月

6 日会议的 148 份代表表格(虽然她只分别在 29 份及 24 份代表表格上被指定为代表)。她解释说,她通过管理委员会的成员、志愿者和社区内的其他熟人收集这些表格,只是为了把它们交给管理处。她否认曾向任何陌生人或不熟悉的人索取代理表格(§§5- 10,26)。 1476.2. 黄碧侨女士否认曾误导居民投票反对更换旧的管理委员会。她表示,她无意曲解“楼宇亮亮行动 2.0”资助计划的性质,她对居民的警告是出于对他们福祉的真正关心。她解释说,银行和政府更新管理委员会签署方的程序通常需要 1-2 个月,可能会冻结账户并延迟承建商付款 (§§27-29)。

  1. 3. 至于冼女士的证据,黄女士否认曾为任何诉讼人支付法律费用。她叙述了两起 LDBM 案件

(2006 年和 2012 年),但声称没有参与资助。在 2006 年的案件中,她说她只是通过集体筹款帮助陷入困境的居民组织起来解决费用(§§11-17)。 1476.4. 她证实自己是 2024 年 9 月徐锦江制作的录音中的演讲者之一。她表示,她是在街头摊位上提供市建局的资助资料。她指出,录音记录了她在被问及代理时的说法,即居民可以参加会议,也可以直接将代理放入庄园的邮箱。她否认将补贴援助与代理催收捆绑在一起(§§18- 20)。

  1. 为完整起见,委员会亦邀请梅少峰先生就对他的指控作出回应。他于 2026 年 5 月 18 日作出

答复。1736 1477.1. 梅先生表示,他只以应邀出席管理委员会的会议,通常是以区议员或分区 委员会委员的身份出席。他说,他没有参与有关 3.3 亿港元工程的任何实质性讨论、决策或建议。他否认与 PC&E 或其董事有任何关系。1477.2.他坚持认为,他没有征求代理人或行使任何代理投票。他声称,只有在居民要求时,他才协助居民提交代理。他的参与仅限于行政协助,例如帮助管理委员会获得 2024 年 9 月 6 日 EGM 的场地。

  1. 值得强调的是,向委员会提交的证据并不表明黄碧娇女士或梅少峰先生亲自参与围标或反竞争行为。在任何情况下,任何个人的民事或刑事责任不在本职权范围内。

1736 [WS21/2419-2423]

证据显示,香港的楼宇管理事务,特别是大型翻新工程,可能会引发激烈的争议和争议。

黄碧桥女士的参与程度加剧了这场争议。她协助收集的委托书占 2021 年 12 月 11 日会议 520 份委托书的 25%,占 2024 年 9 月 6 日会议 746 份委托书的 20%。在两次会议上,她个人的代理权数量都排在第五位。

陈皓文女士的证据是,与民政事务总署不同(民政事务总署的人员必须在业主会议上严格保持公正),1737区议员并不需要在大厦管理事宜上保持中立。他们可能持有并表达个人观点, 包括谁应该坐在管理委员会上。委员会不必质疑这一立场,这反映了区议员作用的政治性质。 1738

然而,结果是,投票过程的完整性不能依赖于竞选者的自我克制。它必须由投票机制本身来保证。在任何表决前核查委托书和透明地披露所持委托书都是加强这一机制的措施。这些措施和其他措施将在第 10 章进行探讨。

E. 市建局 Smart Tender 计划的局限

E1. 市建局扮演“推动者”的角色,造成虚假的安全感

市建局的角色至关重要。1739旨在作为一种保障措施,减少建筑装修行业的投标操纵风险,为长期以来被认为容易受到操纵的市场提供结构、透明度和专业监督。正如市建局在其结案陈词§7 中所认识到的,Smart Tender 的一贯目的是降低业主和业主立案法团面临的围标风险 团面对围标的风险).

在宏福苑出现的困难表明 Smart Tender 方案的操作存在重大限制。该计划旨在加强程序的完整性,但这里的事件表明,其保护措施并没有像预期的那样有效。而且由于Smart Tender 是作为防止操纵投标的有力保障向公众展示的,因此房主们产生了一种虚假的安全感。该计划恰恰为该体系旨在防范的行为者披上了一层合法性的外衣。

1737 陈孝文 WS§7 [WS1/504-505] 1738 [T20/69:13-70:10] 1739 正如陈一和先生在[21/16:11-14]

  1. 2. 市建局本身的做法,驳斥了有关出版收费指引反竞争的说法。市建局亦透过在楼宇复修平台下设立的成本参考中心,公布典型的现场维修工程的详细参考单位收费。如果作品的出版参考费率是不受反对的,那么顾问的参考费用就不能适用不同的原则。 1743

1740 参见[T21/71:1;76:10] 1486。市建局在结案陈词和[2010]文件中重申了这种不干涉原则,这导致市建局无法在宏福苑文件中发现任何违规行为和串谋投标的迹象。 1741 [T21/51:8];cf。[T21/15:13-17],陈振聪同意这个建议,“而其实因为大维修工程里面呢啲围标嘅情况普遍,所以市建局先至设立咗”招标妥”去打击呢啲问题嘅,呢一点大家都知道嘅”。 1742 [T21/53:16-20, 55:4-6] 1743 CC 六月建议书§§5(3),23-29

黄志光亦建议,市建局不能就投标提供意见,以免招致申诉专员的批评。他认为,这样做会招致申诉专员公署的指责,认为违反了公正原则。1744

司法特派员本人断然拒绝了这一要求。申诉专员公署在二六年五月四日致市建局的信中指出, 黄先生的言论“完全没有事实根据,纯属猜测”。市建局明确表示,从未就 Smart Tender 向市建局表达过这样的意见。委员会强调,其法定职权涉及行政失当,而非黄志光所指的“公正” 问题。信中指出,这些言论是“不负责任和不正确的”,可能会损害办事处的声誉。

市建局在 2026 年 5 月 13 日的回复中,收回了黄志光的评论,并解释说,他在取证听证会期间承受了相当大的压力,如果他的回应引起误解,这是“不幸的”。市建局证实并没有就Smart Tender 的事宜谘询申诉专员。

市建局在投标定价方面的被动态度并非个例。这是一种更广泛的机构心态的一个例子:核查的责任总是在别人身上。

同样的心态也解释了本章前面提到的问题:市建局没有查阅公开的定罪记录,也没有查阅竞标者之间的联系记录,并且对国际建筑师协会和顾问给予绝对的信任。市建局亦证实,在火灾发生前,加入Smart Tender 的承建商无须申报任何定罪或诉讼纪录。为满足反串谋要求, 市建局依靠自行声明表格。实际上,它运行的系统依赖于违法者自愿披露他们的不当行为。 1745 1746

市建局对承建商投标分析报告草案的态度进一步说明了这种心态。1496.1.2023 年 3 月,鸿毅向市建局提出其投标评分准则,以供检讨。居民自然认为市建局会审查评审标准是否公平、有效,以及是否能避免人为操纵。1496.2.市建局于 2023 年 3 月 15 日以电邮回复,提供意见。陈茂波作证说,这些评论只是基于评分标准的措辞和时间框架。他证实市建局不会评论

1744 [T21/54:12-22, 54:36-55:3] 1745 [21/58:26-32] [au:]实际情况是,居民将市建局的答复理解为认可鸿毅提出的评分制度的公平性和充分性。这确 实反映在 2023 年 3 月 17 日管理委员会会议的记录中,在批准准则时明确引用了市建局的“认可”。业主所不知道的是,市建局拒绝审查可能发生串谋投标的评分机制。[2014] [2018] 1746 See e.g. [E1-4/8308, 8310, 8359, 8379]

评分标准是否有效、合理或符合惯例。事实上,即使评分标准明显不合理,例如要求承建商 “高大英俊”的评分标准,市建局也不会发表评论。1747 1748

委员会会记得黄志光先生的声明:“我们相信顾问所作的评估;这就是 Smart Tender 系统的机制”。但是这种信任很难证明,因为顾问本身的招标程序几乎没有受到审查。正如政府在提交的意见书中所承认的那样,建筑维修和翻新一直是在行政“诚信制度”下运作的,这一制度在很大程度上依赖于注册承建商和RIs 的自我监管、职业道德和诚信。1749 1750

1498. 宏福苑火灾充分暴露了这种依赖在实践中是多么脆弱。

E2. 独立顾问

  1. 一个有关的问题涉及独立顾问。在 Smart Tender 框架下,RS Surveyors 被任命为宏福苑的独立顾问。原则上,这个角色是作为一个棚网——一个中立的监督者,负责监督遗产选择的顾问, 并确保招标程序不被操纵。正如市建局所指出,独立顾问是为业主提供独立的第三方专业意 见

在关键阶段,特别是在成本估算上。1751

在实践中,证据表明 RS 测量师的作用受到了严重的限制。有几个例子说明了这一点。

首先,RS 测量师的核心职责之一是准备一份标前评估报告(第一部分),将鸿毅的成本估算 与他们自己的独立估值进行比较。装修工程估算成本的通货膨胀是操纵投标的典型危险信号。 1752

在 RS 测量师于 2022 年 11 月的标前评估报告(第一部分)中,他们对该项目的估值为 2.249 亿港元。然而,他们在 2018 年 8 月的早期估值为 1.02 亿港元。1753 1754

1747 [T21/23:32-33] 1748 [T21/22:18-30] 1749 政府关门§§65-66,71 1750 [T21/72:27-28] 1751 市建局的收盘价§8(b)旨在抬高合同价格),那么它将无法充分履行其作为独立监管机构的角色。 1752 陈逸豪马修 WS§§43-45 [WS1/438] 1753 [E1-1/1474]

市建局的陈茂波在作证时表示,他对测量师将估价翻倍并不感到意外。最初的 1.02 亿港元预算只反映了独立顾问根据 MBIS 目测到的必要工程。鸿毅后来在起草招标文件时,增加了许多“量身定制项目”,大大扩大了工程范围。因此,RS 测量师必须根据扩大的工程范围提高他们的估计。1755

RS 测量师估算的目的是提供一个客观的基准,让业主了解项目的成本,以及他们是否被多收费。

如果 RS 测量师在房地产顾问添加明显多余的“定制物品”时提高其估值(而且有可能)

陈茂波承认,勘测测量师并没有评估建议的工程是否真的有需要,这更加深了人们的关注。如果鸿毅在合约中加入许多昂贵和多余的项目,市建局和土地测量师都不会介入或警告业主。陈振声解释说,作品的范围属于管理委员会的自主范围。陈家强承认,我们关注的是建议工 程是否符合“市区重建局计划”的规定:市建局和测量师都不会建议业主选择更经济的方案。 1756

同样,RS Surveyors 的立场是,它“没有合同义务”就鸿毅建议的“备选/最小工程范围”向业主提供建议。它证实,其中没有包括关于缩小鸿毅提议的工作范围的可能性的评论。1757

如上所述,顾问和友好承建商之间的勾结是一种常见的投标操纵行为。目前的案例正好说明了这一点:鸿毅是在一个极低的咨询报价的基础上被任命的,继续扩大工程范围,并被怀疑协助PC&E 赢得了虚增的下游合同。Smart Tender 计划通过 RS 测量师的独立造价估算计划使该夸大的合约价格具有合法性,而居民完全不知道 RS 测量师认为工程范围超出了其职权范围。

其次,RS 测量师在任命 PC&E 时所扮演的角色也值得审查。在收到 57 份施工标书后,鸿毅编制了其承建商投标分析报告推荐 PC&E。RS 测量师随后负责审查承建商投标分析报告,以确保它是正确和可靠的。

1754 [E1-4/8600] 1755 [T21/18:9-19:22] 1756 [T21/19:23-20:10] 1757 RS 测量师于二零二六年六月四日致 Lo & Lo(“LL”)的函件(第 3(d)条)[WS21/2341]

如前所述,在 57 份投标中,侯华健先生与至少 5 家其他投标公司有关联,而鸿毅在没有提及其定罪的情况下,给了PC&E 一个满分。

RS 测量师在他们的审查中没有发现任何这些问题。他们的评估报告日期为 2023 年 11 月 27 日1758是敷衍的,几乎完全集中在计算错误和排版上——形式问题而不是实质问题。当有人向陈茂波提出,测量师的报告“对防止业主串谋投标没有任何帮助”,而有关事宜“超出测量师的考虑范围”时,陈茂波表示同意。1759 1760 1761

在对委员会的答复中,1762 RS 测量师证实,他们没有对任何投标人进行独立的市场研究或背景调查。他们完全依靠鸿毅来确保投标评估的完整和准确,并认为鸿毅的唯一专业责任是就投标人历史或市场状况产生的风险向业主提供建议。他们的理由是合同性质的:他们表示, 任何独立调查都“超出了我们的合同职责范围”。

值得注意的是,测量师亦表示,“除非市建局特别提请我们注意”,否则他们不会审阅个别投标者提交的证明文件。现实情况是,RS 测量员认为他们的角色不是积极的保障,而是一个狭隘的

第三,另一个结构性问题是市建局独立顾问的组成。正如王志强证实的,市建局在整个 Smart Tender 计划中,依靠三家小型顾问公司(包括 RS 测量师)担任独立顾问。1763

没有什么可以阻止像 RS 测量师这样的公司在星期一担任市建局一个屋苑的“裁判”(独立顾问),而在星期二担任另一个屋苑的“选手”(投标顾问或 RI)。当有人向黄志光提出这个可能性时,他承认市建局无法阻止其独立顾问承接外部项目。1764

如果独立顾问是由市建局自行提名,业主会认为委任具有合法性。因此,更加重要的是,必须维持独立的表象和现实。

1758 [E1-4/9139] 1759 [T21/29:12-15] 1760 [E1-4/9140-9142],主要是行政审查人员,其职权范围不扩大到赋予独立顾问意义的检查。 1761 承建商投标分析报告§§2.1.2,2.1.10 评估报告[E1-4/9140-9141] 1762 RS 测量师于 2026 年 6 月 4 日致 LL 的函件§5 [WS21/2342-2343] 1763 [T21/62:16-63:1] 1764 [T21/63:12]

独立顾问公司作为市场参与者的参与带来了另一个问题,黄志光先生接受了这个问题。他们的成本估算是基于市场价格。在围标辛迪加持续抬高装修工程价格的地方,“市场”本身就受到了污染,独立的估价也随之被拉高。因此,为保护业主免受虚高报价的影响而部署的基准可能本身就包含了它想要检测的通胀。 1765

因此,独立顾问作为一个活跃的市场参与者的作用产生了可靠性和冲突的困难:它的估计吸收了由围标造成的市场扭曲,它的商业利益在于它所从事的仲裁市场。 E3. 改革的必要性

委员会当然会注意到市建局运作所受的资源限制1766,以及各机构需要共同努力,解决建造业的串通投标问题。但宏福苑事件清楚地表明,需要进行系统性调整。

因此,令人鼓舞的是,市建局正在考虑一系列改革,包括:17671520.1. 市建局建议加强承建商资格预审名单。黄志光解释说,承建商须申报没有贪污纪录、反竞争行为或致命意外,并 须接受警方和廉署的背景审查,才可列入名单。其目的是一旦新框架到位,最终淘汰现有的、未经检查的 Smart Tender 列表。1768 1520.2. 市建局亦打算直接审核投标书。黄志光表示,市建局会“自行处理”,自行审核已密封的标书,而不是完全依靠地产顾问。一个内部小组将审 查所有提交的投标书,然后向居民推荐三份。1769

这些建议是向前迈出的有意义的一步。但它们的成功将取决于执行的严格程度。目前的改革方案没有解决与投票有关的脆弱性,包括代理安排。加强对承建商的审查显然是必要的,但如果投票机制本身仍然容易受到控制,这是不够的。

1522. 我们的详细建议载于第 10 章。

1765 [T21/69:17-19] 1766 关于该条款见市建局交割协议§§18-19 1520.3. 市建局支持为承建商设立检控及定罪纪录的中央资料库,或将无犯罪纪录作为发牌规定,由屋宇署执行[2040] 1767 市建局结束交易§§30-33 1768 [T21/59:16-60:26, 77:22-29] 1769 [T21/77:33]

第 10 章关于围标及相关不当行为的建议

A. 引言

这些建议处理上文第 9 章前面分析过的根据职权范围第 2 段查明的不足之处。该章涉及的问题是,串通投标、腐败或类似的违规行为是否影响了建筑工程的投标。

委员会的任务是从证据中——特别是在宏福苑的事件中,但从核心参与者、专业机构和政府部门分享的更广泛的经验中——提取出需要紧急关注的系统性缺陷。委员会已从广泛的观点 1770中受益,我们已充分考虑到这些观点。接下来的内容必然是广泛的,但针对的是最迫切 需要改革的领域,即使政策制定者在适当的时候需要对其进行改进。

在接下来的章节中,我们按主题安排了我们的建议,反映了与之相关的行为和监督的不同方面。1771

B. 市场诚信及把关

B1. 增强“Smart Tender”和审查子公司1772

1770 除其他材料外,这些材料包括政府的改善措施表; [2041] 居民建议;委员会六月的建议书,连同委员会较早的意见书和报告;及香港教育资讯学会的建议。我们亦考虑了各方在最后提交的意见书中提出的建议。 1771 本章不涉及有关 RIs 监管的建议。[2042] 关于这一点见第 8 章。 1772 香港资讯学会建议设立一个中央法定机构,即楼宇维修保养管理局,以监管承建商和顾问的注册,对可疑投标进行独立的成本审计,并对高风险项目行使“介入权”。然而,创建如此规模的权威机构将引发监管设计、资源和机构重叠等复杂问题。在很大程度上取决于政府最终在多大程度上实施这些意见书中其他地方提出的更广泛的一整套措施。如果这些改革得到足够严格的实施,它们可能会减轻许多潜在的风险,而无需建立一个新的法定机构。无论如何,这是政府的问题;鉴于所涉及的复杂性,这些意见书不适合就 BRMA 的设立提出具体建议。

无法拒绝看似可疑的投标,也无法调查积极串通的迹象。这种姿态造成了危险的真空。它使腐败分子能够利用 Smart Tender 作为合法性的标志,而所有者则被哄骗到一种虚假的安全感中。

  1. 自火灾发生以来,政府已在 3 亿港元的拨款中拨款 1 亿港元,让市建局成立一个专门的附属机构,以运作具有主动审批功能的改进后的 Smart Tender 计划。增强型Smart Tender 的目标是在 2026 年第四季度推出。1773
  2. 我们同意,如果要将 Smart Tender 转变为有意义的保障措施,这种资助是必要的。尤其重要的是,市建局的新附属机构必须摆脱“中立便利”的立场。它的任务必须是肯定的和干预的。 几个核心区域值得进一步探索:1774 1529.1. 市建局应全权负责草拟标书规格、进行电子投标、内部评估投标,以及编制经预先筛选、值得信赖的承办商名单,供业主选择。它必须仔细审 查公共记录,以筛选隐藏的股权联系和竞购者之间的可疑关联。1529.2.应要求市建局就重 建及顾问投标在商业上是否可行发表意见。证据表明,Smart Tender 并没有有意义地解决RI/顾问的选择问题,也没有为宏福苑的低报价提供解决方案。今后,改进后的计划应涵盖 注册检验人员(RI)/顾问的投标,包括密封的成本估算、独立的价格基准,以及标记可疑 投标模式的能力。1529.3.证据亦显示,市建局历来视 Smart Tender 为一项自愿性便利服务, 无权介入。这种情况必须改变。该附属机构应有权索取文件、询问投标者、在必要时暂停程 序,并在出现串谋迹象时强制转到协调委员会和/或其他执法机构。它还应该有权取消诚信 声明不实的投标人的资格。 1775

1773 发展局对独立委员会要求在大埔宏福苑处进行火灾的答复(“发展局答复”)第 6 条[WS23/2473];政府改善措施表§F1. 另见 Peter Wong 先生的证据[T21/77:22-78:11] 1774 政府的改善措施表已处理了其中一些特点。另见政府结案陈词第 1110 条。 1775 根据居民的建议:参见居民建议§§17-23。

  1. 4. 顾问公司及承建商亦须在关键时刻,特别是在工程范围或成本有变动时,向市建局报告, 以便向业主提供适当的意见。1776
  2. 我们进一步建议政府考虑扩大经加强的 Smart Tender 计划的适用范围。按照目前的建议,改进方案(特别是新的三家公司推荐入围名单)似乎只适用于接受公共维修补贴的建筑物。市建局的一个可行办法是扩大计划的范围,让私人业主可以选择参与,如果他们希望从计划的保障措施中获益的话。这将允许非补贴建筑的业主获得同样的保护和支持,而无需强制实施全面的要求。 1777
  3. 我们也建议市建局实施技术解决方案,以算法检测围标和其他不当行为。实时分析将使我们能够尽早发现问题,并减少对举报人的依赖。在这方面,市建局与立法会亦应保持联络。
  4. 居民亦建议政府考虑成立一个专门的多学科谘询小组,就大型工程在技术、财务及法律等方面的复杂事宜,为非专业业主提供指引。我们同意。不应让房主不经审查就依赖可能存在冲突或两面派的顾问(进一步见下文第 1549 条)。 1778
  5. 我们进一步建议市建局考虑发挥更积极的教育作用,为全港的管理委员会 s 举办技术研讨会, 并(清楚及提前)订明
  6. 同样,市建局不妨探讨加强对法团成员的培训,让他们了解核心管治主题:投标程序、串谋指标和 MBIS 责任。同样,有组织的培训要求将有助于确保负责作出采购决定的人员至少具有最低水平的技术和管理知识,从而减少有冲突的顾问或掠夺性承建商操纵的余地。

B2. 独立顾问

  1. 鉴于在宏福苑、1779的经验,我们建议政府考虑有意加入市建局独立顾问名册的公司,是否应更明确地划分角色。法律应禁止任何此类公司投标、设计或监督私人建筑维修工程。那些负

1776 DEVB 答复§5(d) [WS23/2473]在采购开始前区分强制性安全工程和可选的美学增强。正如香港资讯学会所指出的, 船东必须对安全及合规性方面必须采取的措施,以及可自行决定的改善措施,有一个基本的认识,以免他们在没有 帮助的情况下解决这些问题。[2050] 1777 DEVB 回复§§5(b), 5(d),指出它仅适用于“接受政府维修补贴的业主”[WS23/2472-2473]。 1778 [T15/38:5-11]

责提供独立审查的机构,不应同时充当他们理应监管的市场的积极参与者。此外,正如下面 §§1538-1539 所指出的,关于这个审计职能最终应该设在哪里,存在一个长期的问题。一种可能性是市建局将工作交由内部进行(这实际上会取消独立顾问的角色);另一个办法是政府考虑一个单独的机构,专门负责监督建筑物维修的完整性,是否会提供一个更清洁和更持久的结构。无论哪种方式,根本目标都是确保真正的独立,而不仅仅是名义上的独立。 1780

  1. 独立顾问的作用也必须得到加强。证据表明,在审核宏福苑的投标时,RS Surveyors 将其审查限于鸿毅准备的文件摘要。他们没有指出盈科董事侯华健(Hau Wa Kin)与其他可能的竞标者之间的企业联系;他们没有收到有效的纪律处分记录,包括屋宇署在 2023 年 8 月发现的对 PC&E 的不当行为。明显的原因是,独立的市场研究、背景调查和诉讼核实不在 Smart Tender 规定的 RS 测量师合同角色的“范围”之内。1781
  2. 因此,我们建议扩大独立顾问的法定工作范围,以包括强制性的廉正审查职责。至少,独立顾问应对所有投标人进行公司注册处搜索,以确定重叠的董事、影子董事和潜在的卡特尔网络。独立顾问应根据正在进行的起诉和纪律处分的中央联合机构数据库检查每个投标人。独立顾问应提出书面的合理性意见(而非只是密封的预算),市建局须检讨这些意见,作为其审核职能的一部分。
  3. 展望未来,政府和市建局亦不妨考虑,在较长期内,是否由市建局即将成立的一亿港元附属公司进行独立审计,聘请受薪的公众测量师和工料测量师。将这项工作纳入市建局,可以减少商业冲突的风险,并提供一个更稳定、更负责任的审计职能。
  4. 更广泛地说,在未来几年,这些职能应该如何组织,这是一个更广泛的问题。应考虑到未来职能的分配和责任组织的结构。一个问题是,与 MBIS 相关的诚信监督是否应该留在市建局内部。一个想法是建立一个单独的机构,专门从事这方面的工作。考虑到目前的资金水平, 成立一个专门机构专注于审计、审查和市场诚信职能,让市建局专注于其核心的重建任务,

1779 RS Surveyors 是宏福苑的独立顾问 1780 [T21/65:4-13] 1781 RS 测量师于 2026 年 6 月 4 日致 LL 的函件§§5(b)-5(c), 5(e), 7 [WS21/2342-2343]

或许是可行的。这样一个机构是否可取,将取决于政策设计、资源分配和机构结构等更广泛的问题,并最终将由政府进行评估。1782 B3. 资格预审名单(顾问及承建商)

1782 如前所述,香港金融学会已建议成立一个新的法定机构,即金融市场管理协会。 1783 政府改善措施表§F1;[T21/58:14-23;76:21-34;77:22-27];DEVB 答复§§5(a), 6- 7,24 [ws23 /2472- 2474,2483];政府结 案§1110 1784 师建议在 p 43:“现时市建局维修顾问及维修工程承建商名册准入准则门槛偏低,背景审查不足,不良公司容易透过转型或“洗白”重新入场,重新 1785 [T21/58:10-12]

项目的投标。我们亦注意到,屋宇署计划由二〇二六年第四季起,直接与市建局及专业注册委员会分享违反《建筑物条例》的定罪及纪律纪录,以确保有问题的公司被列入黑名单。 1786 1787

无论是通过中央网关还是其他部门间协议实现,关键是与完整性相关的信息必须在整个系统 中快速可靠地流动,以便那些违反公共安全或竞争法的人不能继续肆无忌惮地投标。订立专 属维修顾问及维修工程承建商名册制度,并订立清晰、更严格的准入准则, 包括专业资历、过往项目经验、财务能力纪律记录及利益冲突申报要求。符合准则的维修顾问及维修工程承 建商方可入册参与投标,从而提升市场参与者的整体质素,并为日后进一步加强监管奠定基 础”.

在这方面,香港资讯系统已表示愿意在遵守资料私隐规定的前提下,与市建局建立直接的资讯分享渠道。这些机构内部档案的纪律处分结果(无论是谴责、暂停或其他专业渎职处分) 将直接纳入市建局的资格预审制度,如上所述,必须积极管理和处理。我们建议,任何面临这种纪律处分的从业人员,在恢复其地位之前,都应理所当然地被禁止投标。 1788 B4. 强制专业顾问(RI 或 AP)在开工前申报利益冲突,并进行独立监督

根据现行的《建筑物(检验及修葺)规例》(第 123P 章),注册会计师只需要在工程完成后提交利益冲突声明。到那时,物理修复已经完成,商业关系已经结束,任何串通安排都可以自由发挥。

发展局已表示有意修订《建筑物条例》,规定在进行修葺工程前,再建商及重建计划必须声明没有任何利益冲突。我们同意修正是必要的:诚信保障必须在前端起作用,而不是事后。 1789

1786 政府关门§§935.3,984 1787 DEVB 回复§7 [WS23/2474],指出资格预审名单将要求查阅政府内外各方持有的定罪和纪律记录。 1788 香港教育学会于 2026 年 6 月 15 日致 LL 的函件§7.2 [WS21/2358] 1789 发展局答复§21 [WS23/2481]

我们进一步建议根据《刑事罪行条例》(第 200 章)第 36 条,将这项开工前声明提升至法定声明的地位,以确保任何虚假声明都具有实际的刑事后果。这反映了 CC 对投标人声明的建议:见下文§1559。

同时,我们建议在增强型 Smart Tender 方案中立法禁止角色倍增。与独立顾问的同等禁令 (见上文第 1535 条)一样,应禁止任何具有进行初步建筑检查资格的 RI 或项目顾问1790担任监督或执行同一遗产的后续维修工程的角色。同样,他们也应被禁止与指定的工程承建商有任何公司或个人关系。这一劳永逸地切断了历史上使共谋得以蓬勃发展的垂直利益链。 1791

如果采用这样的标准,重要的是,它将从个人专业人员扩展到任何相关公司或附属机构。例如,新法律可能会参照最终受益所有人来定义“关联公司”,这样就不能利用空壳公司结构来规避规则。法律必须能够触及辛迪加传统上借以隐藏其关系的网络。 B5. 收费标准、审核和标准化工程量清单

卡特尔经常利用老板省钱的本能。一种熟悉的模式如下:测量公司以低得无法实际支持工作的费用获得顾问投标;业主只看到表面上的节省,就接受了;然后,顾问将他们引导到一个虚高的承建商报价上,结束这个循环,并在其他地方恢复利润。这种模式在宏福苑中确实可以观察到。

为了解决这个问题,我们了解到市建局已就楼宇复修平台设立了一个自愿性成本参考中心, 提供常用维修项目的过去平均单位价格。然而,CC 警告说,尽管这些基准可以帮助识别看似便宜得令人难以置信的出价,但它们本身可能会受到历史勾结的扭曲;一些真正的低出价可能只是反映了新进入者扰乱了市场。1792 1793

1790 鸿毅等于宏福苑。 1791 发展局答复§22 [WS23/2481] 1792 CC 六月建议§30 1793 CC 六月建议书§28

1794 师建议在 p 43(“优化招标文件及合约条款技术细则”)1558。同样重要的是“水平”维度。竞标者本身必须真正相互独立,这样最初的投标才不会被一个卡特尔悄悄策划。 1795 也就是说,付款和最终合同价格是根据实际完成的工作量计算的,而不是预先商定的固定费用。 1796 HKIS 建议第 13 页(“”)

数投标,让业主有更清晰、可核实的基础,以比较投标。也就是说,该提议的实用性需要业界进一步考虑。 B6. 法定整合增强的 NCC/ ntc 和有关投标人的誓言

  1. 我们已经在上面§1546 中提到,专业主管(AP 或 RI)需要在一开始就确认他们完全独立于承担工程的承建商。简而言之,裁判不应该对球员感恩戴。
  2. 自 2017 年以来,CC 已经发布了非串通条款(“NCCs”)和非串通投标证书(“NCTCs”)范本。委员会现在提出了一套增强的 NCC/NCTC 套件,并提出了一份形式法定声明,供采购商纳入其招标文件,要求投标人宣誓确认他们没有从事反竞争行为。1797 1798
  3. 我们同意。此外,政府亦应考虑修订《建筑物管理条例》,规定所有大型楼宇维修工程(不论是私营或公营机构)的投标书,均须附上一份经妥善执行的法定声明,以确认符合工程谘询委员会的《维修工程谘询委员会》及《维修工程谘询委员会》模式。未作上述声明的投标将无效;IO 将无法接受它。
  4. 因此,如果竞标人作出这样的声明,而后来发现竞标人参与了串谋定价、串通或掩护投标,

当然应根据《刑事罪行条例》第 36 条以作出虚假法定声明而受到检控。这将避免竞争执法的漫长程序,使操纵市场的人直接承担刑事后果。尽管目前的制度可以说已经导致了刑事责任——违反 NCC 或 ntc 可能导致根据普通法串谋诈骗罪被起诉——我们同意 CC 的观点,即更直接的法定途径将是有益的。1799 B7. 统一学科数据库

  1. 证据显示出一个反复出现的结构性缺陷:每个监管机构都在自己的车道上运作。屋宇署备存一般建筑承建商及专门承建商名册;消防处负责管理 RFSIC 资料库;劳工处备存有关职业安全及健康罪行的检控纪录;CC 追踪卡特尔案件;警方则监察三合会的参与情况。然而,这

1797 CC 六月建议书§§3(4),32-33;政府结案§1010 1798 最高法院判例第 4(7)条[WS3/1729] 1799 最高法院可报告第 3(8)(b)(ii)条[WS22/2448]

些系统中没有一个能相互交流。结果是显而易见的。一个承建商可能会因违反监管规定而被一个机构反复起诉,而另一个机构则继续更新其许可证,就好像什么都没发生过一样。

  1. 发展局已同意研究建立一套集中处理系统,收集渎职行为的调查结果和定罪个案,使各部门能即时分享资料。1800
  2. 我们支持政府考虑这个方向,并在可行的情况下尽快落实。具体的体系结构可以稍后确定—

—是单一的共享平台、联邦数据库还是另一种完全不同的机制。但重要的是及时的数据共享。理想情况下,一旦注册检验人员(RI)、授权签署人或承建商触犯《建筑物条例》、《防止贿 赂条例》、《竞争条例》或职业安全及健康法例,系统应立即在其所有部门的牌照上登记污点, 以防止他们提交小型工程表格、提交停用申请,或参与公开或私人招标。在这方面,如下文 第 1576 条所述,政府可考虑修订《建筑物条例》,赋予建筑事务监督法定权力,撤销根据 《防止贿赂条例》被判有贿赂罪行或根据《竞争条例》被判有串谋行为的注册人及承办商的牌照。这将确保一个监管机构实施的制裁得到所有监管机构的认可并采取行动。

  1. 与此相关,我们建议屋宇署扩展其专业转介制度,让所有因《建筑物条例》而被定罪的人士自动转介专业注册委员会(建筑师、工程师及测量师),以加快取消其专业资格。据我们了解,BD 已经在这方面采取了措施。 1801

C. 加强法律威慑及专业纪律

C1. 《竞争条例》下的证据问题

1800 发展局答复§23 [WS23/2482] 1801 发展局答复§16 [WS23/2479] 1802 CC 五月报告第 19 条[WS22/2456]

因此,我们建议政府考虑是否应修订现行法例(例如《条例》第 93 条),以明确民事标准-概 率平衡-适用于审裁处的法律程序。这将使香港与可比司法管辖区的做法保持一致。尽管如 此,我们明白举证标准的问题在香港是有争议的,并吸引了不同的意见;这一领域的任何改 革都需要仔细协商——包括考虑潜在的宪法问题,如果将串通投标定为刑事犯罪(见下文)。 1803

另一个困难在于证明串通投标案件中的意图或因果关系。卡特尔在极度保密的情况下运作; 其目的的直接证据很少得到。政府似可根据 CC. 1804的建议,借鉴已确立的海外判例(包括美国的权力界限),探讨引入明确的法定推定

在这种模式下,如果 CC 证明实际或潜在的竞争对手交换了竞争性敏感信息(定价文件、“作业”或类似信息),法律将假定该交换旨在影响市场行为。然后,责任就会转移到承建商身上,以证明一个合法的、独立的商业理由。

同样,关于围标的定义,根据现行法律,CC 必须证明是否定的:即串通安排“不让招标人知道”。我们建议政府考虑修改这一规定,以便如果承建商希望辩称他们向业主披露了他们的串通交易,承建商有举证责任证明这种积极的披露。同样,必须根据潜在的宪法限制来评估任何此类改革。 1805 C2. 将围标,个人责任,与营业额相关的罚款和注销定为刑事犯罪

宏福苑的事件再次引发了人们对串通投标是否应被定为刑事犯罪的关注。1806

最高法院观察到,刑事定罪原则上是一个健全的步骤,但前提是犯罪行为被设计成反映调查 中发现的现实世界的行为。楼宇维修行业的卡特尔行为很少局限于《竞争条例》第 2 条对串通投标的狭义定义。它可能涉及信息交换、市场

1803 CC 五月报告§29(1)[WS22/2459];政府结案§1042 1804 CC 五月报告§29(2)[WS22/2459]共享,凭证共享,虚假投标,顾问勾结,甚至三合会协调投标操纵。[2079] 1805 CC 五月报告第 29(3)条[WS22/2459] 1806 目前, 围标本身( 即所谓的竞争企业同意不相互竞争以响应招标) 不属于刑事犯罪: CC 五月报告§21 [WS22/2457]。

因此,我们同意 CC 的观点,即任何刑事犯罪都应被广泛地起草,以涵盖所有旨在影响投标结果的行为,而不是仅仅关注于对操纵投标的狭隘法定定义。当然,具体的立法方案将由中央行政委员会、政府和立法机关考虑。提出具体措辞不属于我们的职权范围,我们认识到, 任何此类行动都必须涉及更广泛的政策、执法和利益相关者的考虑。 1807

如果通过,根据该条例,串通投标、操纵价格和分享市场行为将成为针对自然人(个别董事和执行人员)的可起诉罪行,而不是单独构成民事违法行为的一部分。在这方面,政府可考虑是否应在整个竞争法框架内引入“管理刑事责任”的规定,借鉴消防处拟议的立法修正案 1808所反映的方法。这样做是为了确保,当卡特尔行为在高级人员知情或默许的情况下发生 时,他们不会躲在公司的面纱后面。

至于罚款,条例第 93(3)条规定,对公司串通投标的民事罚款上限为香港营业额的 10%,最长为三年。对于大型辛迪加来说,这样的罚款很可能被作为经营成本吸收。因此,我们建议政府

另外,我们支持发展局考虑修订《建筑物条例》的建议,以便赋予建筑事务监督明确的法定权力,撤销或在适当情况下永久撤销根据《防止贿赂条例》被定罪犯有贿赂罪行或根据《竞 争条例》被定罪犯有串谋行为的注册局和牌局的牌照。在基本的刑事定罪已经确立的情况下, 应当避免冗长的纪律诉讼程序。 1809

1807 我们注意到, CC 一直在咨询各利益相关方,并打算在适当的时候提出一套立法改革: CC 5 月报告§34 [WS22/2461];CC 六月建议书第 33(3)条。 1808 政府改善措施表第 A10(iv)条有关管理层刑事责任的条文。 1809 发展局答复第 3(d)条[WS23/2470]

D. 代表权及投票问题

D1. 根据《建筑物管理条例》亲身投票

宏福苑暴露了《建筑物管理条例》(第 344 章)的结构性弱点。大型维修合同花费了业主数百万美元,并具有多年的约束力,几乎完全可以通过书面代理来批准。这使得有组织的团体很容易制造法定人数,并在没有居民自己有意义参与的情况下通过夸大的投标。

最近对该条例的修订对此作出了回应,在大规模维修采购中引入了有投票权的人员要求。必须有至少 5%或 100 名业主(以较少者为准)出席并亲自投票,决议才有效。1810

%的门槛是一个进步,但对于大型地产来说,这个门槛仍然很低。在一个规模为宏福苑的开发项目中,100 名业主仅占社区人口的 5%——一个纪律严明的财团完全可以对付。

因此,我们建议政府考虑是否有必要对重大采购设定更高的人数限额——例如 10%的业主或 150 名业主(以较低者为准)。长远而言,正如民政事务总署所建议的,政府可考虑采用“分层投票门槛”,使每业主成本较高的工程项目,相应须有较高的法定人数和到场投票要求, 以防止少数人通过重大的翻新工程法案。与此相关的是,应要求 IOs 在投票会议前至少七天举行正式的项目说明会,确保非专业居民在做出决定之前掌握必要的学科知识。1811

具体机制最终要由政策制定者来解决。但任何改革都应确保这种规模的决策反映出真正的、广泛的参与,而不能由暗地里运作的小团体操纵。 D2. 法定代理权上限

有证据表明,某些人(例如管理委员会成员或地区议员)出席会议时持有相当数量的代理权, 将本应是审议大会的会议变成了接近一边倒的做法。当时的《建筑物管理条例》(第 344 章) 并没有限制个人可以拥有多少份代理人。显然,必须确保没有任何个人可以通过大规模收集 的代理人来主导会议,并鼓励与更广泛的常驻机构进行真正的接触,而不是依赖于签名收集。

1810 王智 WS§§26-29 [WS1/493-494] 1811 政府关闭§1104.1;[g5/2742 - 2743]

有法律效力。 1812 D3. “代理注册表”、投票说明和紧急干预权力的布告板张贴

  1. 委员会已经听到证据表明,私人管理公司倾向于将代理注册表视为内部文件,援引隐私问题将其置于公众视线之外。在实践中,这意味着在会议结束和计票之前,居民没有任何有意义的机会来发现代理欺诈。 1813
  2. 我们同意民政事务总署的建议,即在建筑物内显示已递交的委任文书的状态(“阳光政策”)。

政府不妨考虑采取进一步行动。物业管理公司应在股东大会召开前 48 小时,在每个楼宇地下大堂的显著告示板上编制并张贴一份完整的“代理注册表”。附表应以简单表格列明单位编号、登记拥有人名称及委任代理持有人的名称。 1814

  1. 这为居民提供了一个有意义的 48 小时窗口来检查条目,识别违规行为(比如看到自己的单位被列入名单,而他们从未
  2. 此外,我们同意 HAD 的意见,代理表格应该有一个“投票说明”部分,在那里所有者可以确切地指定他们的代理必须如何投票。应在表格中加入强制性的“声明”部分,警告提交虚假代理是一种刑事犯罪。1815
  3. 最根本的是,我们也同意民政事务总署的意见,即如果管理委员会主席拒绝召开会议,尽管有 5%的业主申请,民政及青年事务局局长应该被授权(根据 10%的业主申请)指示 PMC 或指定的人召开会议,重新安排会议时间,并主持会议。1816

1812 [[2086]]王志强。WS§31(2)[WS1/495]。另见[G5/2743]和政府结案§1104.2,建议(a)对于 50 个或更少单元的建筑 物,每个人只能持有 1 份代理文书;(二)在超过 50 个单位的楼宇中,任何人不得持有超过总拥有人百分之二或二十份代理,两者以较少者为准。签署代理书),并通知管委会或民政事务处,以便在会议前冻结任何欺诈代理书。1813 [T24/25:32-35] 1814 the Chi Wang WS§31(2)[WS1/495];[T24/25:18-28];政府结案§1140.2 1815 政府结案§1140.2;[g5/2743 - 2744]

D4. 验证协议和 PMC 责任

  1. 宏福苑的经验表明,一个不受保护的代理系统是多么容易被滥用。在会议前两周,代理人被匿名放入一个收集箱,并且没有在置邦或置邦面前签署。在取证听证会, ISS 的物业主任郑子英女士承认,物业管理公司对委托书的“核实”只不过是一种行政上的打勾——工作人员在电子表格上核对业主的名字和单位号码,根本不检查签名;“签名,我们很难核实”。没有现场调查,没有身份检查,也没有有意义的核实。这是一个建立在信任基础上的系统,而且只有信任。 1817
  2. 有鉴于此,我们建议政府考虑加强《建筑物管理条例》(第 344 章)及《物业管理服务条例》

(第 626 章)(及/或其他相关法例)对物业管理公司施加的法定核实责任,以及适用的实务指引。具体细节稍后再定,但核心要素可能包括: 1590.1. 私人管理公司将被要求检查每份代理表格上的签名,而不是将其视为一种形式。

  1. 2. 对所有提交代理的指定比例(例如 20%)进行强制性随机审计。PMC 将呼叫已注册的所有者,口头确认代理是自愿执行的,并将呼叫记录在审计日志中。1818
  2. 3. 如果在抽样审计期间出现违规行为,PMC 将升级为对所有代理的全面审查。如怀疑有欺诈行为,应将有关事宜转介警方处理,以防涉嫌伪造。1819
  3. 4. 如果物业管理公司未能进行所需的审计,并允许投下虚假的代理,政策制定者不妨考虑是否应暂停物业管理公司根据《物业管理服务条例》所持的牌照。
  4. 在这方面,如第 9 章所述,可以采取一些简单的步骤来防止代理收集。1591.1.委托书可由业主亲自到管理处提交。如果委托书不是由委托方提交的,办公室可以要求提供身份证明文件, 并对其进行简要记录。1591.2.但是,如果要保留收集箱方法,如上所述,pmc 应该对已提

1816 政府关门§§1104.4-1104.5;[g5/2744 - 2745]。参见[T24/8:11-15]。 1817 [T8/48:5-7] 1818 如本委员会在[T24/25:36-26:21] 1819 见廉政公署报告第 72 条[WS3/1777]

交代理的所有者的随机样本进行验证调用。在宏福苑,除非表单明显不完整,否则 ISS 不会进行验证调用。 1591.3. 这些都是适度而实际的措施。它们不需要立法改革;它们只需要收养它们的意愿。鉴于在宏福苑发生的情况,政府不妨考虑将这种保障措施作为标准做法,这将使欺诈性提交的文件更难执行。

  1. 此外,正如香港信息学会所建议的,我们建议将现场风险监测和事件报告正式写入标准的

PMC 服务合同,并附有上述法定责任条款。1820

更普遍的是,由于私营企业在运营上与企业特别代表、投票登记机构和投标箱开箱处关系密切,它们历来是犯罪集团贿赂和提供便利的目标。因此,我们欢迎政府修订《2024 年建筑物管理(修订)条例》,规定所有负责管理大型维修采购的楼宇管理公司人员,在招标承办商或供应商时,必须正式声明有任何金钱或个人利益。1821 D5. 向集中电子投票过渡

一般来说,数字凭证比纸质凭证更难以伪造或大量获取。香港资讯系统促请政府致力发展一个集中的电子投票平台,支持直接投票、核实代理,并在一个透明的门户网站上存放投标文件、更改订单和付款记录。1822 1595.1. 根据《建筑物管理条例》(第 344 章)的规定,超过规定门槛(例如每单位港币 30,000 元) 的私人翻新工程,可透过单一电子入门网站进行法定投票,而不必使用纸张表格。 1595.2. 选民将使用生物识别系统或唯一密码进行登记和投票,确保每张选票与经过验证的个人绑定。

1820 在 pp 44-45 [2094]师建议(“清晰界定物业管理公司在楼宇维修期间的角色及责任”)1595。我们建议政府考虑建立一个资金充足、法律支持的集中式数字投票系统。这类系统可以包含以下几个关键特征: 1821 另见政府结案案§§1023-1025;廉政公署报告书 fn 26 [WS20/2286] 1822 HKIS 建议书第 45 页(“中文中文”)

  1. 3. 对于没有智能手机的业主,在大厦大堂的指定终端,由民政事务处或物业管理公司管理, 可以允许使用实体香港身份证进行安全的面对面投票,完全不需要纸质代理。
  2. 4. 该系统将对所有投票进行时间戳和存档,使代理收集和伪造变得更加困难。

第 11 章结论

1596. 请委员会认真审查上述总结的证据,并考虑根据我们的分析提出的建议。

有 1984 个流离失所的家庭,他们的生活在一个下午就被颠覆了。我们再次感谢来到委员会面前提供证据的居民- -有些人是在悲痛中,另一些人则为根本不是他们的失败而自责。委员会能听到宏福苑发生的事情的真相,很大程度上是因为他们在火灾前坚持控诉,在火灾后坚持作证。 1823 政府结案§1121

IP Ka-lee CHIANG Wing-kam IP Lai-man CHIU Yuet-ngor IP Ping-tau CHOI Lai-ping KAM Kit-ying CHOI Man-ying KEE Lai-ming CHOI Suet-chun KO Kam-seung CHOI Wing-tak KO Mei-ling CHONG Shiu-ki KONG King-tin CHOW Wing-kwong KWOK Wai-yan Sandy CHOY Sheung-him LAI Chi-kwong CHU Cheuk-kuen LAI Hoi-ki CHUNG Kan-hoe LAI Kam-hung CHUNG Sau-chun LAI Nai-yuet CHUNG Siu-king LAM Fong CHUNG Yin-wah LAM San-nog DARWATI LAM Sheung DINA-Martiana LAU Ding-kar ERAWATI LAU Man-kong ESTEBAN Maryan Pascual LAU Mei-kam HO Mee-bo LAU Sau-yin HO Suk-fun Hester LAU Yuen-min

HO Tsz-yan LAW Mei-ying HO Wah-sing LAW Shui-sin HO Wai-ho LEE Chuen-cheung HON Kit-ling LEE Chun-man HUA Hao-ngoc LEE Fong-yau HUANG Hsiu-fei NG Wan-ho LEE Fung NG Woon-chi LEE Lai-chu NG Yuk-chun LEE Lai-man NOVITA LEE Sit-ming PAK Shui-lin

LEE Yan-wing POON Kim-ngan LEUNG Lai-ching PUN Kai-fong LEUNG Pik-see SHEK Kwai-fong LEUNG Sek-ho SIN Lai-fun LEUNG Soo-mui SING Suk-ching LEUNG Yin-wah SITI Fatonah LI Kin-yuk SITI-KHOTIMAH

LI Koon-wah SO Siu-hung Peter LI Kwok-wai SO Wai-fan Philip LI Ping-wai SO Wing-kuen LIN Chi-fai SO Yan-yip LIU Chunye SRI-Wahyuni LIU Sau-fong TAM Hoi-sing

LO Cheuk-ming TAM Hong-chung LO Ying TAM Lai-mai LUI Kin-cheung TAM Wei-ping MAK Lo-yan TAM Yun-shong MAK Wai-lan TANG Suk-ching MAN Ho-fai Lawrence TANG Suk-ping MIU Siu-king TANG Tat-yi MO Suet-lin TANG Wai-yin MOK Ka- bo TANG Yan-tung

MOK Kam-lam TANG Yuk-ping NG Kam-ha TO Yuen-chuen NG Wai-chun WONG Wai-ching TONG Yim-fong WONG Yan-cho TSANG Lai-hing WU Yiu-fai TSANG Lai-wah XUE Aihua

TSANG Wai-han YAM Kuen TSANG Yuet-oi YAM Ting TSANG Yuk-may YAN Pun-hing WIDYANA Desy YASMIATI WONG Hang-mui YEUNG Lai-sim WONG Ka-sing YEUNG Suk-hing WONG Kam-wah YEUNG Tung-ying WONG Lai-kuen YIP Pik-yi WONG Mei-mei YIU Wing-lung WONG Po-ying YU So-ying WONG Sau-wan YUEN Shiu-cheung

WONG Sze-yee 日期:2026 年 7 月 13 日

Victor Dawes, S.C. S.W. Lee Jason Yu Brian Lee John Cheung Jonathan Fung

委员会法律团队(Counsel for the Committee):Lo & Lo

委员会事务律师(Solicitors of the Committee)

中文译本完

正式法律用途以英文原文为准

47151沈阳市沈阳商业城特…

46626上海静安区高层住宅…

29412北京凯迪克大酒店火…

29043洛阳市东都商厦特大…

23387兴化化工公司甲醇储…

20165河南省焦作市天堂录…

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FD06267 | 1987_英国_伦敦地铁_国王十字_火灾调查报告(英文).md

分类:06_境外及港澳台调查报告 | 年份:1987 | 地域: | 严重程度: | 场所:交通/车辆 | 起火原因:吸烟 | 来源格式:md

一、基本情况

1987年11月18日晚约19:25–19:30,伦敦King's Cross地铁站Piccadilly线4号木质自动扶梯发生火灾,火焰于19:45窜入售票大厅。事故造成31人死亡(含一名高级消防员Station Officer Colin Townsley),多人重伤。伦敦消防局出动逾150名消防员、30台消防车。

二、起火原因

一名乘客在扶梯上点燃火柴(1985年起站内已禁烟但执行不力),火柴由踏步与裙板间因扶梯“crabbing”位移产生的缝隙(约30%防火隔板缺失,更易坠落)掉入踏步下方运行轨道。轨道长期未清洁,积有油脂与杂物(油污“种床”),火柴引燃油脂阴燃。火焰在扶梯“沟槽”内呈躺卧状加速上窜——即后世命名的“沟槽效应”(trench effect,康达效应+烟囱效应叠加),约40秒烧至扶梯顶并闪燃冲入售票大厅。

三、责任与致灾因素

四、整改与教训(Fennell调查 157项建议)

Fennell调查提出157项建议(33项最重要、59项重要),核心包括:以金属扶梯替换木质自动扶梯;禁烟范围扩至全站;加装热量与烟气探测器;为英国交通警察(BTP)配备与LFB兼容的地下无线电;改善地下消防员通信;复审训练与个人防护装备(PPE);并将计划存放于站外约定位置。英国据此于1989年出台《地铁站火灾预防条例》(Fire Precautions (Sub-surface Railway Stations) Regulations)。

FD06268 | 1992_英国布雷福德一发生火灾_7·21_火灾_调查报告.md

分类:06_境外及港澳台调查报告 | 年份:1992 | 地域: | 严重程度: | 场所: | 起火原因: | 来源格式:md

一、事故概况及经过

1992年7月21日,英国联合科劳兹公司的布雷福德工厂发生火灾。火灾后,英国卫生和安全执行局(HSE)对火灾进行调查,调查集中在反应性化学品偶氮二异丁腈(AIDN)。AIDN贮存在公司专用于氧化剂贮存的仓库内。火灾当天下午1:30,AIDN过热,释放出粉尘。不知什么原因过硫酸氨(APS)贮存在该仓库内。APS和AIDN是可燃的,使烈火迅速蔓延。大火直至第二天才被扑灭,参加灭火的34人眼睛受到刺激,数名消防队员受伤。

该厂生产用于印刷、纺织、除草剂和涂料工业用的有机化学品。据估计大火造成损失为6百万英磅。

英国国家河流管理局也调查了被火灾污染的河流。据调查,当地两条河流艾尔和科尔德河已被污染,一些地方毒死了当地的野生生物。

二、事故原因分析

据调查,这次火灾涉及到两种化学品,AIDN是属于4.1类易燃物品,而APS是5.1类氧化剂,根据HSE建议书,二者不应贮存在一起。

FD06269 | 2005_UK_2005_Buncefield_Explosion_First_Progress_Report.pdf

分类:06_境外及港澳台调查报告 | 年份:2005 | 地域: | 严重程度: | 场所: | 起火原因: | 来源格式:pdf

The Buncefield Investigation Progress report

The Buncefield Investigation Contents Foreword 3 Part 1 The Investigation so far 4 1.1 The incident 4 1.2 What is known about the explosions and fire 9 1.3 The continuing Investigation 12 1.4 Review of HSE/EA roles in regulating activities at Buncefield 14 1.5 Major Incident Investigation Board 15 Part 2 Background 16 2.1 Site description 16 2.2 Regulation of high-hazard sites 19 Annexes 1 Background to the COMAH Regulations 21 2 HSE’s current approach to land use planning 22 3 Investigation terms of reference 25 4 Major Incident Investigation organogram 26 5 Further information 27 Glossary 28 Photographs are courtesy of the Chiltern Air Support Unit and Hertfordshire County Council 2

The Buncefield Investigation Foreword At the first meeting of the Major Incident Investigation Board (MIIB) on 24 January I was asked to prepare, for the second (10 February) meeting, a progress report on the Buncefield Major Incident Investigation by the Health and Safety Executive (HSE) and the Environment Agency (EA). This was to bring together relevant background material and to cover progress with the investigation and such facts as have been established to this point. The MIIB said that this progress report would not constitute the ‘initial report’ required by Terms of Reference 6, since some of the main facts have yet to be established. This progress report is a stepping stone towards the initial report. The report describes the incident and the nature of the site and surrounding communities and the initial responses by EA and HSE. Importantly, the report describes the most likely nature of the explosion and fires that have so far been ascertained from eyewitness statements and CCTV records. The explanation of what the investigation team believes is most likely to have led to the devastation of the area is not yet verified by scientific modelling and other evidence but I have sufficient confidence in the evidence to believe on balance it should be made public. The report does not describe how what happened occurred. This is because I am not in a position to say anything with sufficient confidence for it to be other than a line of inquiry amongst others. Speculating publicly on causation would be undesirable because I am not in a position to confirm the likelihood of the theory, nor to deal authoritatively with the implications arising out of the theory. It may also lead to nugatory remedial actions by depot operators. I believe verification is required from records of fuel movement and storage to confirm any theory related to loss of containment, not least of all because this may alter the balance between system and mechanical failure, and this knowledge is vital in formulating a competent response to the Buncefield incident. Taf Powell Buncefield Investigation Manager and Member of Buncefield Major Incident Investigation Board 3

The Buncefield Investigation Figure 1 This photograph shows the Buncefield site on the first day of the fire. The Northgate building can be seen burning towards the lower left corner of the photograph. Part 1 The Investigation so far 1.1 The incident 1 At around 06.001 on Sunday 11 December 2005, a number of explosions occurred at Buncefield Oil Storage Depot, Hemel Hempstead, Hertfordshire. At least one of the initial explosions was of massive proportions and there was a large fire, which engulfed over 20 large fuel storage tanks over a high proportion of the site.2 There were 43 people injured in the incident, none seriously. There were no fatalities. Significant damage occurred to both commercial and residential properties in the vicinity and a large area around the site was evacuated on emergency service advice. About 2000 people were evacuated. Sections of the M1 motorway were closed. 1 Preliminary analysis of seismic records published by the British Geological Survey indicates that the initial explosion event occurred at 06:01 GMT. 2 Figure 5 on page 8 shows the damaged area. For a description of the site see Part 2.1 of this report. 4

The Buncefield Investigation Figure 2 This photograph shows the fire-fighting operation in progress with the appliance in the avenue between bunds ‘A’ and ‘B’ 2 The fire burned for several days, destroying most of the site and emitting large clouds of black smoke into the atmosphere, dispersing over southern England and beyond. Large quantities of foam and water were used to control the fire, with risks of contaminating water courses and ground water (see Figure 2). Emergency response 3 The emergency services (primarily the Fire and Rescue Service and the police) led the initial response to the incident and its immediate aftermath. As a Category 1 responder under the Civil Contingencies Act, EA worked closely with the Fire and Rescue Service, the police, the Health Protection Agency (HPA) and the Strategic Health Authority, including advising on the water pollution aspects of the fire­ fighting activities. HSE is a Category 2 responder, so during the early phase of the incident stood ready to provide advice and expertise on request in support of the emergency services and EA. 4 Hertfordshire Police co-ordinated the emergency response and worked closely with other responders including the Hertfordshire Fire and Rescue Service, Hertfordshire County Council, Dacorum Borough Council, EA and HPA. The police 5

The Buncefield Investigation set up an exclusion zone around the site which remained in position for several days. The Hertfordshire Fire and Rescue Service was supported by staff drafted in from many other brigades and used equipment and foam brought in from around the country. Shortly before Christmas the police were able to hand back the security of the site to the depot operators but the fire service retained a presence on site until the New Year as quantities of uncontained fuel remained on site. 5 At the peak of the incident – on Monday lunchtime, 12 December – there were 26 Hertfordshire pumps on site, 20 support vehicles and 180 firefighters. More than 250 000 litres of foam concentrate were used, together with 25 million litres of water and 30 km of high-volume hose. 6 The investigation team wishes to acknowledge the work of the emergency services and especially the invaluable support given to HSE and EA in securing vital evidence in the initial period when the site was dangerous and under the control of the emergency services. Securing the site 7 Once the Buncefield fire had been extinguished, HSE issued formal notices on the two operators of the part of the depot that had suffered the greatest damage. Prohibition Notices were served on both Hertfordshire Oil Storage Ltd (HOSL)3 and British Pipeline Agency Ltd (BPA) on 16 December 2005 prohibiting operations on site under their control unless appropriate risk assessments had been agreed with HSE. Each of these operators were also served with Notices requiring that the parts of the depot under their control were left undisturbed. The Notices were issued to ensure that key pieces of evidence remained in place for examination by the investigation team and that the clear up operations were carried out in a safe manner. The operators have co-operated with HSE and EA to achieve these goals. Water pollution 8 EA worked with the Fire and Rescue Service to develop a plan that minimised the potential for firewater run-off. This included recirculating cooling water. The main concern was the containment of liquid on site due to the presence of a drinking water aquifer nearby. Some material did leave the site into Three Cherry Trees Lane. EA believe most of this was contained by the natural contours of the land, which prevented it reaching surface waters. Pollution of the River Ver is low and no impact on its fish and animal life has been seen. 9 From the start of the incident both the Meteorological Office (using a long- range pollution dispersion model) and EA (using a short-range model) worked to model the plume and provided data to HPA on likely plume direction and ground level concentrations. On the advice of HPA a number of schools were closed as a precaution. 10 Air pollution in London and the Home Counties was measured by four regional air quality monitoring networks managed by King’s College, London, and comprising over 130 local authority monitoring sites. A number of parameters were measured including particulates. Air samples were sent for particulate analysis and the results are awaited. 3 For more details of the HOSL and BPA sites see Part 2.1 of this report. 6

The Buncefield Investigation Social and economic impact Figure 3 The smoke plume rising and spreading above the Buncefield site. 11 The Buncefield Depot is close to the Maylands Industrial Estate, home to some 630 businesses employing about 16 500 people. All businesses were disrupted by the explosions and fire, some severely. The premises of 20 businesses employing 500 people were destroyed; the premises of 60 businesses employing 3500 people are under repair and not yet usable. Most businesses face difficulties in delivering pre-incident levels of service from dispersed and temporary accommodation. Reduced trading and supply disruptions have affected businesses over a wider area. Impact on employment has been limited so far, but job losses could become significant over the next few months. 7

The Buncefield Investigation Figure 4 Depot and surroundings prior to incident Lagoon Bund A Catherine House Fuji building Keystone House Northgate building N Thre e C he rr y Trees Lane T h r e e Ch erry Tree s L an e Boundary Wa y Boundary Way Bun c efield La ne Buncefield Lane High Grange Fircones The Cottage Tank 12 Bund B British Pipelines Agency Figure 5 Layout of Depot 3-Com building RO building Loading gantry Hertfordshire Oil Storage Ltd (West and East) and surroundings also showing limit of flammable mixture indicated by burned Local area features Buncefield depot sites material Site features Extent of burn damage 8

The Buncefield Investigation 12 The incident also damaged nearby housing, mainly in Dacorum district, but also in St Albans district. Some houses closest to the site suffered significant structural damage; several families are living in temporary accommodation while their houses are repaired. At least 300 houses suffered lesser damage. 13 The incident disrupted fuel supply to London and South-East England. Remedial measures by the industry have restored supplies of road transport, commercial and domestic fuels generally back or close to pre-incident levels. However, supplies to Heathrow remain disrupted. This has required fuel rationing by the BAA to allow the airport to function normally, with no flight cancellations. For all supplies the industry is trying to find permanent solutions to replace the current transitional arrangements. 1.2 What is known about the explosions and fire 14 Evidence obtained so far points to the formation of a flammable mixture of petrol, or similar spirit, and air that ignited, leading to the explosions and fire. The flammable mixture appears associated with a visible mist. This evidence includes reports from eyewitnesses, CCTV records and forensic material, as briefly summarised below. Eyewitness reports 15 On-site at the west side of the tanker loading gantry on HOSL West site: ■ Witnesses describe seeing mist at about 05:50 GMT in the vicinity of one of the tanks in bund A4 (see Figure 4). They also describe a mist variously between one and three feet in height rolling from bund A towards the tanker loading gantry. Witnesses also report a moving mist near the trees (along Buncefield Lane to the west of the site) about one and a half feet high and wisps of vapour on the ground near the end of the loading bay. ■ These witnesses mention a strong smell at this time, variously described as petrol or aviation gasoline. ■ None of the witnesses describe the flames reaching them as they moved from the tanker loading gantry towards the site exit. None of them report having suffered burn injuries. 16 Off-site in the vicinity of the Fuji building carpark to the west of the site: ■ Witnesses describe a thick fog ‘above head height’ or ‘between 15 and 20 feet high’ between 05:50 and 06:00 GMT. This was first seen near the junction where Three Cherry Trees Lane meets Buncefield Lane. The fog continued to spread to the west towards Catherine House. ■ These witnesses noticed a strong smell, but were not certain of its nature and in general there is a degree of disagreement among witnesses as to the nature of the smell. These witnesses also describe various responses from their car engines including ‘revving uncontrollably’, ‘running rough’ and ‘stalling’. ■ From the witness statements and lack of burn injuries, the flame does not appear to have travelled as far as Boundary Way. CCTV records 17 Examination of CCTV images for the HOSL site and for the RO building off-site has provided the following evidence. 4 A bund is an enclosure designed to contain fluids should they escape from the tank or vessel inside the bund. 9

The Buncefield Investigation 18 HOSL West ■ Before the event there was no evidence of mist or fog at ground level showing on any of the camera images. This includes the surface of the fire water lagoon in the north-west corner of the HOSL West site. ■ The first unusual indication was at 05:38 GMT, 23 minutes before the explosion. At the north-west corner of bund A, a light mist is seen flowing from inside bund A towards the west. This is at the north-west corner of bund A. The mist is low-lying and about one metre deep. Its appearance is consistent with a mist that is denser than the surrounding air. ■ During the next few minutes mist is seen flowing towards Three Cherry Trees Lane via the lagoon and flowing out of bund B at the north-east edge of the site, along the roadway on-site. ■ Cameras at the eastern edge of the HOSL site adjacent to the BPA site first show the mist eight minutes after its first appearance crossing the wall of bund A. ■ By this time, the cameras along the western edge of the site, along Buncefield Lane, show that the mist has thickened to about two metres deep. It is now so dense that it is not possible to see through it. It appears to flow away from bund A in all directions. ■ There is no indication on the cameras that the visible mist has spread as far south as the tanker filling gantry. ■ All the cameras stopped recording at the time of the explosion. 19 HOSL East ■ There is no evidence of the mist seen on the HOSL West site having reached as far as any of the cameras on the HOSL East site. The cameras show evidence of the fire, but it is not possible to learn anything of significance. 20 RO building ■ This building is to the south of the Northgate building, approximately level with the tanker loading gantry on the HOSL West site. There is no evidence of the mist having reached as far as any of the cameras at this building. The images show a flash of light at the time of the explosion, followed by evidence of Figure 6 HOSL West gates explosion damage. 10

The Buncefield Investigation Initial forensic examination 21 Initial examination of the evidence of damage around the site by the Health and Safety Laboratory (HSL) allows the approximate extent of the flammable mixture to be judged from the effects of the flash fire on vulnerable surfaces: ■ Scorched vegetation on a row of trees between the Northgate building and the 3-Com building. ■ Scorched leaves underneath these trees. ■ Scorched upholstery to unignited cars at this location. 22 In addition the north-east corner of the Northgate building has been on fire. There are burnt cars and trees between the Northgate building and the Fuji building. 23 Cars on Three Cherry Trees Lane near to Catherine House were set on fire and vegetation along the side of Three Cherry Trees Lane was scorched at this location. 24 Evidence of the extent of any flammable mixture over the HOSL site is masked by damage from the resulting tank and bund fires. Initial conclusions regarding the extent of the flammable mixture. 25 The explosion(s) that caused the extensive damage on and off site, and the early fires, can probably be ascribed to the ignition of a flammable mixture that is thought to have been associated with the visible mist reported by eyewitnesses and visible on CCTV records. 26 Initial indications are that the flammable mixture of fuel and air extended to the west almost as far as Boundary Way in the gaps between the 3-Com, Northgate and Fuji buildings. To the north-west it extended as far as the nearest corner of Catherine House. 27 It may have extended to the north of the HOSL site as far as BPA tank 12. It may have extended across part of the HOSL site, but there is no evidence of it having spread as far south as the tanker filling gantry, although the visible mist had just started to reach this point. Figure 5 shows the most likely extent of the flammable mixture based on the investigation so far. 28 The visible mist seen in the CCTV records and described by witnesses is assumed to arise from the evaporation of the more volatile fractions of an escape of fuel. This evaporating fuel would be cold compared to the surrounding air, which is known from weather records to have had high humidity. The cooling would result in the condensation of water in the air. The visible mist thus indicates the approximate extent of the fuel air mixture. 29 The source of the fuel release is not yet known, although the CCTV records indicate that it was in the vicinity of bund A on the HOSL West site. The most plausible scenarios involve large-scale loss of containment of vessels or pipework within bund A. Resources are being directed to clarify these early indications and to find out what underlying causes there may have been. 11

The Buncefield Investigation Initial findings regarding the explosion 30 It is clear from the witness accounts and the evidence of damage both on and off site that there was a massive explosion early in the developing incident. There appear to have been several explosions, but the exact sequence of events has not yet been established. Initial indications from examination of the explosion damage are that the main explosion event appears to have been located in the area of the car parks between the HOSL West site and the Fuji and Northgate buildings. The heaviest damage can be seen in this area. This does not necessarily mean that the ignition of the flammable mixture occurred here, but that the highest flame speeds were in this location. The mechanism for this is not yet understood. This forms part of the ongoing investigation. Initial advice to duty holders 31 In response to the incident HSE will advise duty holders what steps to take in the light of what is known so far about the nature of the Buncefield explosion. The advice will be systematically followed up with duty holders by HSE inspectors. 1.3 The continuing Investigation 32 Immediately after the incident HSE and EA set up a joint investigation team under the leadership of HSE. The Investigation team was tasked with finding out what had happened, including the factors leading up to it and the root causes. The full terms of reference are at Annex 3. 33 The team divided the Investigation into a number of strands and assigned specialist staff to take each one forward. The Investigation is led by specialists in inspection and investigation. The main technical strands are in mechanical engineering, process engineering, fire and explosion engineering, control and instrumentation, and environmental impact assessment. Human factors experts will be increasingly involved as more evidence becomes available concerning the operation of the site. The site has been segmented into areas to assist the early Investigation. 34 The team commissioned staff from the HSL to assess the damage caused by the explosion. This assessment has enabled the team to determine the approximate location and extent of the flammable mixture that had formed, and the probable sources of ignition that led to both the fire and the explosion. 35 Work is continuing to find out the exact nature and composition of the flammable mixture and to determine the precise mechanism which led to such a violent explosion. This includes establishing the nature and composition of the fuel from which the mixture was formed. Priority is being given to this work so that HSE’s advice to local planning authorities about developments adjacent to Buncefield and other fuel storage sites can be reviewed and, if necessary, amended. Site surveys have been carried out to enable the team to determine the volume and physical and chemical properties of the flammable mixture; this important work is continuing. 36 Inspectors are continuing painstaking work to restore and view CCTV evidence from the site and adjacent premises. There is a large amount of electronic evidence relevant to the operation of the depot and much of this was contained in buildings severely damaged by the blast. As much of this as possible has now been secured and work continues to restore and then examine these highly specialist electronic records to determine the operating conditions before and at the time of the incident. 12

The Buncefield Investigation 37 The Investigation team is also examining the detailed technical documentary records relating to plant design and operation. Examination of the damage to plant on site and forensic examination of key parts of tanks and pipework is only just commencing. Following the extensive damage and contamination of bunds with fuel products and run-off fire water, access to many parts of the site has been restricted. Priority has been given to making these areas safe and only recently have inspectors been able to turn their attention to this aspect of the investigation. 38 On environmental issues the team has focused on containment of products and fire-fighting materials on site and releases to the environment. It is working to identify pathways of pollutants into the environment and to quantify the scale of impact to the environment both on and off site with regard to land and water. As the clean-up operation has progressed samples have been taken from lagoons, boreholes and surrounding watercourses and gaining photographic evidence of the developing situation both on and off site. Staff are also obtaining documentary evidence of how containment was designed, constructed and maintained on site, including the provision for containing fire-fighting water. 39 The Investigation team continues to investigate the scale of environmental impact from the liquids released from the site, as well as closely monitoring the clean-up work. Team members are working to identify the root causes of any containment failings as well as identifying where measures on site have prevented greater impact. Ongoing objectives 40 The Investigation is at a very early stage. The team has yet to start examining previous inspection reports and assessments of safety reports. This will be necessary to identify whether any issues linked to the root causes of this incident had been raised previously with the operators and if so what the operators had done about them. The investigation will also examine the on- and off-site emergency plans. 41 A critically important focus for the site Investigation is to find out why and where there was a release of hydrocarbons. It is therefore vital to continue work on the examination of pipework and storage tanks to ascertain the precise source of the release and the mechanism of formation of the flammable mixture and why preventive control measures were inadequate. 42 The Investigation still needs to establish whether the incident has caused serious danger to the environment, as set out in the definition of a ‘major accident’ affecting the environment in the Control of Major Accident Hazards Regulations 1999 (COMAH). 43 Work on all strands of the Investigation is continuing. Further work is needed before a clear and definitive picture will emerge, both of how and why there was a release of fuels on 11 December 2005 and of the underlying reasons for it. 44 As part of the Investigation, the team will also examine all this collective evidence against the standards required by the COMAH Regulations and other health, safety and environmental legislation. Emergency plans 45 The COMAH Regulations require on- and off-site emergency plans for the Depot (see Part 2.2). HSE and EA are examining the adequacy of these plans in conjunction with the operators and the emergency services. The plans will be compared to the operational response and lessons drawn for the future. 13

The Buncefield Investigation Figure 7 The area prior to incident Developments around the Buncefield Site 46 COMAH sites are subject to a special planning regime which is described in Part 2.2. At Buncefield this resulted in zones being drawn around the site within which HSE was consulted on developments by the local planning authorities. The outer zone (the ‘consultation distance’) was set at approximately 190 metres from the perimeter of the site. The investigation will examine the history of planning applications within the vicinity of the site and in particular, when the precise nature of the explosion and fire has been determined, will address the question of whether or not advice to local planning authorities at Buncefield and similar sites should be changed. 1.4 Review of HSE/EA roles in regulating activities at Buncefield 47 Point 3 of the Buncefield Investigation terms of reference (Annex 3) requires the Investigation to examine HSE’s and EA’s role in regulating the activities on this site under the COMAH Regulations, considering relevant policy guidance and intervention activity. HSE and EA together form the Joint Competent Authority for the regulation of major hazard sites (such as Buncefield) under the COMAH Regulations. 48 This review will address both the nature of the compliance with policy and procedures for regulating health, safety and environmental matters, and the efficacy of the policy and procedures. 49 HSE and EA will initially conduct separate reviews, sharing findings and aligning outputs as necessary. The final product will be a single report of the regulation of the Buncefield site together with recommendations arising out of the review. 50 Review teams have been set up in both organisations, site visits undertaken and plans for reviewing documentation and previous regulatory involvement have been drawn up. 51 The review findings on the HSE and EA roles will be subject to full scrutiny by the independent members of the Major Incident Investigation Board (see Part 1.5). 14

The Buncefield Investigation 1.5 Major Incident Investigation Board 52 On 12 January 2006 HSC appointed a six-person Board to oversee the formal Investigation. This Board comprises an independent non-executive Chairman, two independent experts, one in fire safety, the other in occupational and environmental medicine, and three senior regulatory operations managers, two from HSE and one from EA. 53 In broad terms the purpose of the Board is to oversee the Investigation and ensure that: ■ the Investigation is carried out effectively and the best professional advice is used in establishing causation; ■ the confidence of the public is maintained in the work and findings of the Investigation; ■ the eight points of the terms of reference (Annex 3) are met, even if in some cases delivery is the responsibility of other parties; ■ information is made public in a timely way, but subject to legal considerations. 15

The Buncefield Investigation Part 2 Background 2.1 Site description 54 Buncefield Oil Storage Depot is a large strategically important fuel storage site (known as a tank farm) operated by a number of companies. Figure 5 shows the layout of the site and its immediate surroundings. 55 The Depot receives petrol, aviation fuel, diesel and other fuels by pipeline. It stores and then distributes these fuels by pipeline and road tanker to London and South- East England, including to Heathrow Airport. The UK Petroleum Industry Association (UKPIA) reports that, prior to the events of 11 December 2005, Buncefield handled 8% of overall UK oil supplies into the market, including 20% of supply to consumers in the South East. The terminal acted as a main pipeline transit point to meet 40% of Heathrow’s demand for aviation fuel. On 11 December the site held over 35 million litres of petrol, diesel and aviation fuel. 56 The Depot contains three sites which are so-called ‘top-tier’ sites under the COMAH Regulations (see Part 2.2 of this report on regulation of high-hazard sites), although the HOSL and BP sites did not acquire top-tier status until changes were made to the Regulations in July 2002. This required submission of safety reports for these sites by July 2003: ■ Hertfordshire Oil Storage Ltd (HOSL) – a joint venture between Total UK Ltd (60%) and Texaco Ltd (40%). This site is in two sections, HOSL East and HOSL West. HOSL West was at the centre of the fire. The site had consent to store 34 000 tonnes of motor spirit and 15 000 tonnes of kerosene. The COMAH safety report assessment process had not been completed. ■ British Pipeline Agency Ltd (BPA) – a joint venture between Shell and BP that operates the site and the pipeline system, while the assets are owned by UK Oil Pipelines Ltd (UKOP). This site is split between the ‘North’ (or ‘Cherry Tree Farm’) section and the main section. It was substantially damaged by fire. It had consent to store 70 000 tonnes of motor spirit and other fuels. The COMAH safety report assessment process had been completed. ■ BP Oil Ltd. The BP facility to the south of the Depot was furthest from the fire and appears to have escaped with superficial damage. It is out of operation while the full extent of damage is assessed. It has consent to store 75 000 tonnes of motor spirit, all product being received from the BPA site pipelines. The COMAH safety report assessment process had been completed. 57 The fuels arrive at the sites in batches through a system of three pipelines, namely: ■ One 10” diameter pipeline (‘FinaLine’) from Lindsey Oil Refinery, Humberside, terminating in the HOSL West site. ■ One UKOP 10” diameter pipeline (‘Mersey-Buncefield’) from Stanlow refinery, Merseyside terminating in the BPA North site ■ One UKOP 14” diameter pipeline (‘Thames-Buncefield’) from Shell Haven and Coryton Refinery terminating in the BPA main site. 58 After separation of the multi-fuel product entering the sites from the pipelines, the fuel is stored in tanks individually dedicated to specific product types. Product then leaves the sites either by road tanker or, in the case of aviation jet fuel, via two dedicated 6” and 8” pipelines from the BPA site into the West London Walton Gatwick pipeline system. Fuel leaving the site by road is loaded by dedicated vehicle loading facilities at HOSL West, BP and to a lesser extent BPA. 16

The Buncefield Investigation 59 There are also fire-fighting facilities on site, some of which are shared. The site water treatment is operated by BPA, collecting run-off water from the whole site into a water treatment plant in the north-east corner of the Depot. 60 For land use planning purposes the Depot is surrounded by a consultation distance of 190 metres (see page 22). The local planning authority must consult HSE about developments within that distance, but not those outside it. Site conditions at the time of the incident 61 Information provided by HOSL indicates that during the hours leading up to the explosion, the HOSL site was importing unleaded petrol through the FinaLine pipeline from the Lindsey Oil Refinery. In addition, unleaded petrol was being imported through the Thames pipeline and diesel through the Mersey line. Unleaded petrol was being exported from the site by filling road tankers at the gantry on the HOSL West site. Weather conditions 62 Meteorological Office records have been obtained for two sites at Luton Airport (13 km to the east-north-east) and Northolt (24 km to the south). These indicate that during the early morning of 11 December 2005 the weather was calm, cold, stable and humid. Atmospheric stability at Northolt was stable (Pasquill stability category F). The relative humidity was recorded as 99%. The air temperature was –1.7 oC at Northolt and 1 oC at Luton. There was no wind recorded at Northolt, while Luton recorded an average wind speed of 6 knots (approximately 3 metres per second) during the 10 minutes before 06:00 GMT. The average wind direction was recorded as 280 degrees measured from true north (this is the direction from which the wind was blowing). 63 At Luton there was a light wind west to east. Further south there was no wind. Geology 64 The Buncefield Depot and the immediate surrounding area are positioned on a variable layer of clay with flints over Upper Chalk. The clay with flints layer is classified as a low permeability surface deposit and is believed to be present at a variable thickness of between 2 m and 10 m. This layer should inhibit the vertical and lateral migration of contaminants and protect the chalk aquifer below where present in sufficient depth. 65 The Upper Chalk is classified as a major aquifer, which provides water supplies regionally. The Depot is located within the catchment of a ground water abstraction point located to the south and east of the Depot. Ground water is present typically at a depth of 45 metres below ground level and flow is generally towards the south-east. Natural holes in the chalk which allow quicker water flow than normal may be present, but none have been positively identified in the immediate area. 66 Within the Depot site boundary a layer of made-ground, comprising a sand clay dominated soil mixture, overlies the clay. Water 67 A local ground water abstraction point that is used as cooling water is located approximately 500 m south of the Depot. 68 The River Gade is located approximately 3 km to the south-west and the River Ver approximately 3.5 km east of the Depot. 17

The Buncefield Investigation Figure 8 Buncefield Oil terminal - Immediate surroundings of the complex 69 During normal operation, surface water from the Depot drains to the Depot effluent treatment plant. It is then pumped into the public surface water system at Pratts Dell to the north-west of the Depot. This in turn drains to the surface water- balancing pond at Redbourne Road and subsequently to the River Red, a tributary of the River Ver. 70 Maylands pond is another surface water-balancing pond situated to the south­ west of the Depot. It was used as a source of fire-fighting water during the incident. General background 71 Land to the west and north of the Depot is largely used for the growing of arable crops. 72 There are no listed buildings within 1 km of the Depot and no recorded monuments within 500 m of the Depot. 73 The Depot is not located within a 100-year flood plain as defined by the EA flood maps. 74 There are no sites of special scientific interest within 2 km of the Depot and the nearest site designated under the Habitats Directive is Ashridge Common Special Area of Conservation, approximately 8 km north-west of the Depot. 18

The Buncefield Investigation 2.2 Regulation of high-hazard sites 75 The regulatory framework for sites, such as Buncefield, which pose potential major accident hazards comprises requirements imposed on the site operators under both health and safety and environmental legislation, complemented by the requirements of planning law. In particular the COMAH Regulations apply. Health and safety law 76 Operators in the process industries are subject to the requirements of the Health and Safety at Work etc Act 1974 (HSW Act) and the Management of Health and Safety at Work Regulations 1999 (MHSWR) which require, respectively, safety policies and risk assessments covering the whole range of health and safety risks. Control of Major Accident Hazards Regulations 1999 (COMAH) 77 COMAH’s main aim is to prevent and mitigate the effects of those major accidents involving dangerous substances, such as chlorine, liquefied petroleum gas, and explosives which can cause serious damage/harm to people and/or the environment. The COMAH Regulations treat risks to the environment as seriously as those to people. They apply where threshold quantities of dangerous substances identified in the Regulations are kept or used. There are two thresholds, known as ‘lower-tier’ and ‘top-tier’. Annex 1 gives a brief background to the origins of these Regulations. The requirements of COMAH are fully explained in A guide to the Control of Major Accident Hazards Regulations 1999 (COMAH). Guidance on Regulations L111 HSE Books 1999 ISBN 0 7176 1604 5. 78 The COMAH Regulations are enforced by a joint Competent Authority (CA) comprising HSE and EA in England and Wales, and HSE and the Scottish Environment Protection Agency (SEPA) in Scotland. Operators will generally receive a single response from the CA on all matters to do with COMAH. The CA operates to a Memorandum of Understanding which sets out arrangements for joint working. 79 The COMAH Regulations require operators of top-tier sites to submit written safety reports to the CA. Operators of top-tier sites must prepare adequate emergency plans to deal with the on-site consequences of possible major accidents and to assist with off-site mitigation. Local authorities for areas containing top-tier sites must prepare adequate emergency plans to deal with the off-site consequences of possible major accidents, based on information supplied by site operators. 80 The COMAH Regulations place duties on the CA to inspect activities subject to the Regulations and prohibit the operation of an establishment if there is evidence that measures taken for prevention and mitigation of major accidents are seriously deficient. The CA also has to examine safety reports and inform operators about the conclusions of its examinations within a reasonable time period. Environmental legislation 81 Some of the establishments regulated under the COMAH Regulations are also regulated by EA and SEPA (the Agencies) under the Pollution Prevention and Control Act 1999 (PPC) or Part I of the Environmental Protection Act 1990 (EPA 90). The regime under EPA 90 is gradually being replaced by the PPC regime and will be fully replaced by 2007. 19

The Buncefield Investigation 82 While the purpose of the COMAH Regulations (the prevention of major accidents) differs from that of IPC/PPC or LAPC (the prevention of pollution), the means to achieve them are almost identical. They require industry to have good management systems to control risk. PPC includes a specific duty to prevent and mitigate accidents to the environment which is complementary to the main COMAH duty. The Agencies manage this overlap between their different regimes following the principle that accident prevention work on COMAH sites is generally more significant because of the greater risks. Land use planning 83 The land use planning aspects of the Seveso II Directive are given effect in the UK by the Planning (Hazardous Substances) Regulations 1992. Under these Regulations the presence of hazardous chemicals above specified thresholds requires consents from the Hazardous Substances Authority (HSA), usually the local planning authority. HSE is a statutory consultee on such occasions. The role of HSE is to consider the hazards and risks which would be presented by the hazardous substances to people in the vicinity, and on the basis of this advise the HSA whether or not consent should be granted. HSE will also supply a consultation distance around the site. Any future developments in these zones require HSE to be consulted. 84 The aim of health and safety advice relating to land use planning is to mitigate the effects of a major accident on the population in the vicinity of hazardous installations, by following a consistent and systematic approach to provide advice on applications for planning permission around such sites. 85 Historically, HSE has based its land use planning advice on the presumption that site operators are in full compliance with the HSW Act. Section 2 of the Act places a duty on an employer to ensure, so far as is reasonably practicable, the health and safety of his employees. There is a corresponding duty in Section 3 to ensure, so far as is reasonably practicable, that others (which includes the public) are not exposed to risks to their health and safety. These duties are goal-setting and operators are expected to determine the most appropriate means to comply with them, without the need for detailed approval from HSE. 86 Annex 2 sets out HSE’s current approach to land use planning advice. 87 Under the General Development Procedure Order 1995, both HSE and EA are statutory consultees for: ■ the development of a new major accident hazard site; or ■ developments on an existing site which could have significant repercussions on major accident hazards; or ■ other developments in the vicinity of existing establishments, where the siting or development is such as to increase the risk or consequences of a major accident. 20

The Buncefield Investigation Annex 1 Backgound to the COMAH Regulations 1 Certain industrial activities involving dangerous substances have the potential to cause accidents that give rise to serious injury to people or damage to the environment both close to and further away from the site of the accident. Such activities are known as major accident hazards. Flixborough 2 In Great Britain, a disastrous explosion at a chemical plant at Flixborough in 1974 profoundly influenced the approach to regulating major hazards. There were 28 workers killed, the plant was destroyed and there was extensive damage to property off site. Following that accident, a committee of experts, the Advisory Committee on Major Hazards (ACMH), was appointed by the Health and Safety Commission to consider the problems of major accident hazards and make recommendations. They proposed a three-part strategy: (a) identification of the sites; (b) control measures to prevent major accidents; and (c) mitigatory measures to limit the effects of any accidents which do occur. European Union Directive 3 Other major accidents occurred in Europe during the 1970s, the most significant of which took place in Seveso, Italy in 1976. Here, the accidental production and release of a dioxin as an unwanted by-product from a runaway chemical reaction led to widespread contamination. Such incidents, and the recognition of the differing standards of controls over industrial activities within the European Community, led the European Commission to propose a Directive on the control of major industrial accident hazards. The three-part strategy proposed in the UK was highly influential in shaping the Directive. The Directive on the Major Accident Hazards of Certain Industrial Activities (82/501/EEC) was adopted on 24 June 1982, and is generally known as the Seveso Directive. 4 Following a complete review of the Directive by the European Commission a new one, now known as Seveso II, was adopted in 1996. The Seveso II Directive retained the basic principles of major accident hazard controls set out in the original Seveso Directive but addressed some weaknesses and omissions. The new Directive followed a review carried out by the European Commission in conjunction with the Committee of Competent Authorities for the Seveso Directive (made up of representatives of all Member States’ governmental bodies enforcing the Seveso Directive). It came into force on 3 February 1997 and was implemented in Great Britain on 1 April 1999 by the COMAH Regulations, except for land use planning requirements (article 12) which were implemented by changes to planning legislation. 5 An amending Directive in 2003 was implemented by changes to the COMAH Regulations. These came into force on 30 June 2005. 21

The Buncefield Investigation Annex 2 HSE’s current approach to land use planning Policy and practice 1 Under the Planning (Hazardous Substances) Regulations, the presence of hazardous chemicals above specified threshold quantities requires consent from the Hazardous Substances Authority (HSA), which is usually also the local planning authority (LPA). HSE is a statutory consultee on all hazardous substances consent applications. HSE’s role is to consider the hazards and risks which would be presented by the hazardous substance(s) to people in the vicinity, and on the basis of this to advise the HSA whether or not consent should be granted. 2 In advising on consent, HSE may specify conditions that should be imposed by the HSA, over and above compliance with statutory health and safety requirements, to limit risks to the public (eg limiting which substances can be stored on site, or requiring tanker delivery rather than on-site storage). HSAs should notify HSE of the outcome of all applications for consent and where consent has been granted should supply copies of the site plans and conditions. 3 HSE uses the information contained in consent applications to establish a consultation distance (CD) around the installation. This usually comprises three zones (or ‘risk contour areas’) – see paragraph 6. The CD is based on the maximum quantity of hazardous substance(s) that the site is entitled to have under its consent. HSE notifies the LPAs of all CDs in their areas. The General Development Procedure Order 1995 requires the LPA to consult HSE about certain proposed developments (essentially those that would result in an increase in population) within any CD. 4 HSE advises the LPA on the nature and severity of the risks presented by the installation to people in the surrounding area so that those risks are given due weight by the LPA when making its decision. Taking account of the risks, HSE will advise against the proposed development or simply note that it does not advise against it. This advice balances the ACMH principle of stabilising and not increasing the numbers at risk, with a pragmatic awareness of the limited land available for development in the UK. 5 HSE’s role in the land use planning system is advisory. It has no power to refuse consent or a planning application. It is the responsibility of the HSA or LPA to make the decision, weighing local needs and benefits and other planning considerations alongside HSE advice, in which case they should give HSE advance notice of that intention. LPAs may be minded to grant permission against HSE’s advice. In such cases HSE will not pursue the matter further as long as the LPA understands and has considered the reasons for HSE’s advice. However HSE has the option, if it believes for example that the risks are sufficiently high, to request the decision is ‘called in’ for consideration by the Secretary of State, in England and Wales (a very rare situation). In Scotland, if the planning authority is minded to grant permission they have to notify the Scottish Ministers who can decide to call in the application. Consultation distances and risk contours 6 Using consent information, HSE undertakes a detailed assessment of the hazards and risks from the installation and produces a map with three risk contours representing defined levels of risk or harm which any individual at that contour 22

The Buncefield Investigation would be subject to. The risk of harm to an individual is greater the closer to the installation. In each case the risk relates to an individual sustaining the so-called ‘dangerous dose’ (see Figure 9) or specified level of harm. The three contours represent levels of individual risk of 10 cpm (chances per million), 1 cpm and 0.3 cpm per year respectively of receiving a dangerous dose or defined level of harm. The contours form three zones (see left), with the outer contour defining the CD around major hazard sites. The LPA consults HSE on relevant proposed developments within this CD. Figure 9 Dangerous dose would lead to: ■ severe distress to all; ■ a substantial number requiring medical attention; ■ some requiring hospital treatment; and ■ some (about 1%) fatalities. COMAH site Consultation Distance (CD) Inner Zone Outer Zone Middle Zone Figure 10 How HSE gives advice 7 When consulted, HSE firstly identifies which of the three defined zones the proposed development is in. Secondly, the proposed development is classified into one of four ‘Sensitivity Levels’. The main factors that determine these levels are the number of people at the development, their sensitivity (vulnerable populations such as children, old people) and the intensity of the development. With these two factors known, a simple decision matrix is used to give a clear ‘Advise Against’ (AA) or ‘Do not Advise Against’ (DAA) response to the LPA, as shown below: The ‘PADHI’ system 8 The decision matrix above was developed taking into account the experience of 30 years of HSE advice on land use planning. It is built into a software tool known as PADHI (Planning Advice for Developments near Hazardous Installations) introduced in late 2002. PADHI deals with the vast majority of consultations and is operated by staff in local HSE field offices, significantly speeding up responses from previous arrangements which required some specialist HSE resource. 23

The Buncefield Investigation Figure 11 Level of sensitivity Development in Development in Development in Inner zone Middle zone Outer zone 1 DAA DAA DAA 2 DAA DAA 2 4 Sensitivity level 1 Example Factories Sensitivity level 2 Example Houses Sensitivity level 3 Example Sensitivity level 4 Example DAA means Do not Advise Against the development AA means Advise Against the development AA AA AA DAA

AA AA AA

Vulnerable members of society eg primary schools, old people’s homes Football ground/large hospital Technical assumptions underpinning HSE methodology for land use planning 9 The installation The quantities and properties of hazardous substances, and the descriptions of storage and process vessels, are assumed to be in accordance with the ‘hazardous substances consent’ entitlement for the site since this represents a duty holder’s declaration of their entitlement to store such substances which could be introduced at any time. For each type of development HSE’s advice to planning authorities will take account of the maximum quantity of a hazardous substance permitted by a hazardous substances consent and any conditions attached to it. Best cautious, but not pessimistic, assumptions concerning substances, locations, operating conditions and surroundings are used. For operations not described in the consent (eg numbers and sizes of road tanker operations, pipework diameters, pumps and other fittings) site-specific values are obtained as necessary. 10 Hazardous events All foreseeable major accidents are considered and a representative set of events which describe a set of circumstances which, for that installation, could lead to an accidental release of hazardous substances. 11 Consequences The previously described ‘dangerous dose’ concept is generally used to describe the extent of the impact of any hazardous event on the surrounding population. Protection provided to people by being sheltered within buildings is generally taken into account by the approach, as is the likelihood of people being outdoors at the time of the incident. 12 Ambient conditions Local weather data is used to provide wind and stability information around the installation. Further, the surroundings are generally assumed to be flat although ground roughness can be taken into account where circumstances require it. 13 Risk assessment The calculations produce contours of the frequency that a typical house resident would be exposed to a dangerous dose or worse. This is generally expressed in terms of ‘chances per million per annum’ or cpm for short, eg 10 cpm, 3 cpm and 0.3 cpm. 24

The Buncefield Investigation Annex 3 Investigation terms of reference 1 To ensure the thorough investigation of the incident, the factors leading up to it, its impact both on and off site, and to establish its causation including root causes. 2 To identify and transmit without delay to duty holders and other appropriate recipients any information requiring immediate action to further safety and/or environmental protection in relation to storage and distribution of hydrocarbon fuels. 3 To examine the Health and Safety Executive’s and the Environment Agency’s role in regulating the activities on this site under the COMAH Regulations, considering relevant policy guidance and intervention activity. 4 To work closely with all relevant stakeholders, both to keep them informed of progress with the investigation and to contribute relevant expertise to other inquiries that may be established. 5 To make recommendations for future action to ensure the effective management and regulation of major accident risk at COMAH sites. This should include consideration of off-site as well as on-site risks and consider prevention of incidents, preparations for response to incidents, and mitigation of their effects. 6 To produce an initial report for the Health and Safety Commission and the Environment Agency as soon as the main facts have been established. Subject to legal considerations, this report will be made public. 7 To ensure that the relevant notifications are made to the European Commission. 8 To make the final report public. 25

The Buncefield Investigation Annex 4 Major Incident Investigation organogram Dr Graham EA lead Primary Investigation lead HSE lead Phil Kemball Legal advice David Ashton HSE Dr Paul Leinster EA Dr Peter Baxter Health expert Dougal Drysdale Engineering expert Investigation manager Chair MIIB Green-Buckley Regulatory review Bob Woodward Paul Woodhouse Regulatory review MIIB Secretary Richard Turfitt from HSE representative representative Professor Fire Safety Taf Powell Lord Newton 26

The Buncefield Investigation Annex 5 Further information Useful links Dacorum Borough Council www.dacorum.gov.uk Tel: 01442 228000 St Albans District Council www.stablans.gov.uk Tel: 01727 866100 Hertfordshire County Council www.hertsdirect.org Tel: 01483 737555 Hertfordshire Chamber of Commerce www.hertschamber.com Tel: 01727 813680 Government links Government Office for the East of England www.go-east.gov.uk Environment Agency www.environment-agency.gov.uk Department of Trade and Industry – Oil and Gas Directorate www.og.dti.gov.uk Health and Safety Executive www.hse.gov.uk Industry links United Kingdom Petroleum Association (UKPIA) www.ukpia.com Tel: 020 72400289 Chemical Industries Association www.cia.org.uk Tel: 020 78343399 Useful sources of information Dacorum Borough Council Digest newsletter, available monthly Dacorum Borough Council Buncefield Update Newsletter 27

The Buncefield Investigation Glossary The Health and Safety Commission (HSC) is responsible for health and safety regulation in Great Britain. The Health and Safety Executive (HSE) (and local authorities) are the enforcing authorities who work in support of the HSC. Both are statutory bodies, established under the Health and Safety at Work etc Act 1974 (the HSW Act). HSC’s statutory functions include conducting and sponsoring research; promoting training; providing an information and advisory service; and submitting proposals to Ministers for new or revised regulations and approved codes of practice. HSC has a chair plus nine members nominated by organisations representing employers, employees, local authorities and others. They are appointed by the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions. HSE is a body of three people appointed by HSC with the Secretary of State’s approval. HSE advises and assists HSC and has specific statutory responsibilities of its own, notably for enforcing health and safety law. HSE’s staff of around 4000 (inspectors, policy advisors, technologists, scientific and medical experts etc) is collectively known as HSE. HSE regulates health and safety in factories, farms, mines, nuclear installations, offshore installations, hospitals, schools and many other sectors. Local authorities are responsible for enforcement in offices, shops and other services. The Environment Agency (EA) is the lead regulator in England and Wales with responsibility for protecting and enhancing the environment. It was set up by the Environment Act 1995 and is a non-departmental public body, largely sponsored by the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (DEFRA) and the National Assembly for Wales (NAW). EA’s prime responsibilities include flood risk management, tackling pollution incidents, reducing industry’s impact on the environment, restoring and improving rivers, coastal waters, contaminated land, and wildlife habitats. EA also advises on sustainable drainage, water conservation and management, planning issues, nature conservation and waste management. The Control of Major Accident Hazards Regulations (COMAH) are enforced by a joint Competent Authority (CA) comprising HSE and EA in England and Wales, and HSE and the Scottish Environment Protection Agency (SEPA) in Scotland. 3-com A business whose premises were effected by the Buncefield incident ACMH Advisory Committee on Major Hazards Aquifer A water-bearing stratum of porous rock, gravel or sand BAA BAA plc operate airports, including London Heathrow Boreholes A cylindrical shaft drilled into the ground, often for geological exploration or extraction of resources Bund An enclosure designed to contain fluids should they escape from the tank or vessel inside the bund Catherine A building effected by the Buncefield incident House 28

The Buncefield Investigation COMAH The Control of Major Accident Hazards Regulations 1999 Regulations (COMAH). See annex 1 COMAH sites A site to which the COMAH Regulations apply Competent The COMAH Regulations are enforced by a joint Competent Authority Authority (CA) comprising HSE and EA in England and Wales, and HSE and the Scottish Environment Protection Agency (SEPA) in Scotland. The CA operates to a Memorandum of Understanding which sets out arrangements for joint working dangerous A dose large enough to lead to: severe distress to all; a dose substantial number requiring medical attention; some requiring hospital treatment; and some (about 1%) fatalities dioxin Toxic chemical by-products of incineration and some industrial processes that use chlorine duty holder In the context of this report, any person or organisation holding a legal duty – in particular those placed by the HSW Act, the MHSWR, and the COMAH Regulations fire water Water stored for use during, and used during, fire-fighting operations foam In the context of this report, a concentrate used during concentrate operations to extinguish hydrocarbon fires Fuji A business whose premises were effected by the Buncefield incident hazard Anything with the potential to cause harm human factors HSE has defined human factors (also known as Ergonomics) as the environmental, organisational and job factors, and human and individual characteristics which influence behaviour at work hydrocarbon An organic chemical compound of hydrogen and carbon. There are a wide variety of hydrocarbons such as crude oil (basically a complex mixture of hydrocarbons), methane, propane, butane, etc. They are often used as fuels Northgate A business whose premises were effected by the Buncefield incident on- and off-site Operators of top-tier COMAH sites must prepare adequate and emergency emergency plans to deal with the on-site consequences of plans possible major accidents and to assist with off-site mitigation. Local authorities for areas containing top-tier COMAH sites must prepare adequate emergency plans to deal with the off-site consequences of possible major accidents, based on information supplied by site operators particulates Fine particles (liquid or solid) suspended in the air such as dust, smoke, fumes, and so on 29

The Buncefield Investigation Pasquill stability A category within a classification scheme used to category describe the degree of atmospheric turbulence pollution A model used to describe the transport and diffusion of dispersion pollutants in the atmosphere model Prohibition Issuing improvement or prohibition notices are some of the range Notice of means which enforcing authorities use to achieve the broad aim of dealing with serious risks, securing compliance with health and safety law and preventing harm. A prohibition notice stops work in order to prevent serious personal injury responder Under the Civil Contingencies Act 2004, EA is a Category 1 responder, and HSE is a Category 2 responder. These categories define the roles played by each body in response to a major incident risk The likelihood that a hazard will cause a specified harm to someone or something RO A business whose premises were effected by the Buncefield incident run-off Uncontained liquid, either deposited on-site as rain, or in the context of the Buncefield incident, fuel and/or fire water not contained as part of the operation to control the incident safety reports The COMAH Regulations require operators of top-tier sites to submit written safety reports to the Competent Authority tier The COMAH Regulations apply where threshold quantities of dangerous substances identified in the Regulations are kept or used. There are two thresholds, known as ‘lower-tier’ and ‘top­ tier’. Annex 1 gives a brief background to the origins of these Regulations volatile A substance which evaporates readily, even below its boiling temperature watercourses A natural or man-made channel along which water flows Published 02/06 30

FD06270 | 2005_UK_2005_Buncefield_Explosion_Initial_Report.pdf

分类:06_境外及港澳台调查报告 | 年份:2005 | 地域: | 严重程度: | 场所: | 起火原因: | 来源格式:pdf

a BUNCEFIELD MAJOR INCIDENT INVESTIGATION Initial Report to the Health and Safety Commission and the Environment Agency of the investigation into the explosions and fires at the Buncefield oil storage and transfer depot, Hemel Hempstead, on 11 December 2005 Buncefield Major Incident Investigation Board

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BUNCEFIELD MAJOR INCIDENT INVESTIGATION Initial Report to the Health and Safety Commission and the Environment Agency of the investigation into the explosions and fires at the Buncefield oil storage and transfer depot, Hemel Hempstead, on 11 December 2005 Buncefield Major Incident Investigation Board i

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Contents Executive summary iv Introduction 1 Part 1 – Summary of the incident and subsequent Investigation 5 M Overview of Buncefield operations 5 M Timeline of key events 7 M Emergency response to the Buncefield incident 10 M The Investigation 11 Part 2 – Issues of concern arising from the Investigation to date 18 M Design and operation of storage sites 18 M Emergency response to incidents 21 M Advice to planning authorities 23 Annexes 1 Terms of reference and progress 24 2 Members of the independent Board 27 3 Planning history of Buncefield site and neighbouring developments 28 4 UK petroleum refinery, pipeline and storage system 35 5 Incidents that have similarities with the Buncefield incident 37 6 Fire and explosion hazards from petrol 39 7 Product composition at Buncefield 44 8 Regulatory framework for high hazard sites 46 9 Regulation of perfluorooctane sulphonates (PFOS) 49 10 Legal considerations 51 Glossary 54 Further information 58 iii

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Executive summary The terms of reference of the Investigation directed by the Health and Safety Commission into the explosions and fires at the Buncefield oil storage and transfer depot, Hemel Hempstead, on 11 December 2005 require an initial report to be produced for the Health and Safety Commission and the Environment Agency when the main facts of the incident have been established. The independent Board set up to supervise the Investigation has previously published three Progress Reports submitted to the Board by the Investigation Manager. The Initial Report presents the Board’s view that enough of the facts have been established, as described in the Progress Reports, to set out with reasonable confidence the sequence of events leading to the incident on 11 December. This also allows the Board to identify several issues of concern for the effective regulation of fuel storage sites such as Buncefield. Summary of the incident and subsequent investigation The Initial Report summarises and updates material from the Progress Reports on the nature of operations at Buncefield, the timeline of key events, the emergency response and the progress of the Investigation. Evidence shows that the main explosion probably resulted from the ignition of a vapour cloud emanating from Tank 912 in Bund A in the Hertfordshire Oil Storage Limited West site, most likely resulting from an overfill of unleaded petrol. The probable mechanism for the creation of the vapour cloud is described, though uncertainty remains about why the explosion was so violent. Main findings since the publication of the Third Progress Report relate to the functioning of the systems used to shut down fuel delivery when a tank is full; the likely composition of the fuel released from Tank 912; and the ongoing monitoring of the environmental impact of the incident, particularly in relation to groundwater contamination. In this last regard, the incident has now been declared a Major Accident to the Environment (MATTE). The Investigation continues. Issues of concern arising from the Investigation to date Though knowledge of the Buncefield incident is still incomplete, enough is known for the Board to draw broad conclusions about the need for action in three areas: M Design and operation of storage sites. M Emergency response to incidents. M Advice to planning authorities. Design and operation of storage sites The Buncefield incident involved failures of the means provided to contain fuel and water used in fire-fighting (known as ‘fire-water’) at three levels: primary, secondary and tertiary. The paramount need is to ensure the integrity of the primary means of containment, ie to make sure that fuel does not escape from the vessels in which it is normally contained. Further precautions need to be considered to prevent this happening and, should it still occur, to inhibit the formation of a flammable vapour. 1

This does not however lessen the need for effective secondary and tertiary containment (bunds and drains, mainly) that prevent pollutants from escaping the site and contaminating the environment should primary containment be lost. Emergency response to incidents Overall, the response to the incident was very impressive. The incident has highlighted the need to have effective emergency arrangements, both on and off site, in the event of a major incident of this kind. Lessons from Buncefield provide a very important opportunity to bring about improvements in emergency preparedness of resilience groups throughout Britain, and further afield. There are a number of reviews into the effectiveness of the emergency response to Buncefield being carried out by the agencies concerned, and the Board intends to return to this important area in the future. Advice to planning authorities The Buncefield incident poses fundamental questions about residential and commercial developments around sites like Buncefield. Continuing uncertainty in this area creates serious problems for local communities, particularly those directly affected by the Buncefield incident. This is a complex issue requiring a balance to be made between the risks and benefits of development. The Board intends to address these issues in detail once the preliminary conclusions of HSE’s current review of its advice to planning authorities are known. A measured approach is justified since the likelihood of a similar explosion remains low, and should be made lower still by a programme of actions designed to increase the reliability of primary containment. In our view, the importance of reaching conclusions that are considered, costed and sustainable greatly outweighs any benefit that might be derived from coming to summary judgements. 2

Introduction 1 This report is the ‘initial report’ required by the terms of reference of the Investigation into the explosions and fires at the Buncefield oil storage and transfer depot, Hemel Hempstead, Hertfordshire on 11 December 2005.1 The Investigation was directed by the Health and Safety Commission (HSC) using its powers under section 14(2)(a) of the Health and Safety at Work etc Act 1974. 2 The Investigation is being carried out jointly by the Health and Safety Executive (HSE) and the Environment Agency. HSC appointed an independent Investigation Board, chaired by Lord Newton of Braintree, to supervise this investigation.2 This report has been prepared by the Investigation Board, based on information arising from the continuing HSE/Environment Agency Investigation. Throughout the Investigation, the Board has been supplied with Progress Reports from the Investigation Manager, Taf Powell, which the Board has published.3 3 This report does not repeat all the material contained in the Progress Reports, which should be read for a fuller understanding of the Investigation up to May

  1. Part 1 summarises, and updates where necessary, key points of the

Investigation for completeness and to aid in understanding the Investigation Board’s initial conclusions set out in Part 2. The Board has included significant new findings from the Investigation that have emerged since the publication of the Third Progress Report on 9 May. Other new material is contained in the annexes to this report. 4 The Investigation terms of reference require an initial report to be submitted to HSC and the Environment Agency as soon as the main facts of the incident have been established. The Investigation is still continuing. Nevertheless, the Investigation Board considers that, with publication of the Third Progress Report in May, enough facts have been established to set out with reasonable confidence the sequence of events leading to the incident on 11 December. In particular, enough is known for the Board to be able to identify several issues of concern for the effective regulation of fuel storage sites such as Buncefield. As well as the main facts of the incident, the Board has included in Part 2 of this report its emerging thoughts about future action to address these issues of concern. 5 The Investigation Board plans to give further consideration to these issues. 3 1 The full terms of reference are reproduced in Annex 1. Term of reference 6 requires an initial report. 2 The Members of the Investigation Board are listed in Annex 2. 3 Details of the three published Progress Reports are contained in Further information.

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Part 1 - Summary of the incident and subsequent investigation 6 This section summarises information contained in the three Progress Reports to the Board published between February and May 2006. Full details can be found in the reports, which are available on the Investigation website.4 Where necessary, this information has been updated in this report and supplemented by new findings from the Investigation. Other new information is contained in the annexes, referenced as appropriate in the text below. Overview of Buncefield operations 7 The Buncefield oil storage and transfer depot is a large tank farm occupied by three companies. These are: Hertfordshire Oil Storage Limited, a joint venture between Total UK Limited and Chevron Limited; United Kingdom Oil Pipelines Limited and West London Pipeline and Storage Limited, whose site is operated by British Pipeline Agency Limited; and British Petroleum Oil UK Limited.5 Each site is classified as a ‘top-tier’ site under the Control of Major Accident Hazards (COMAH) Regulations 1999.6 8 Figure 1 shows the layout of the Buncefield depot and its surroundings. The Buncefield depot forms part of a national petroleum refinery, pipeline and storage system, described in Annex 4. Fuel products were supplied to Buncefield by three pipeline systems: M 10” pipeline (FinaLine) from Lindsey Oil Refinery on Humberside, terminating in the Hertfordshire Oil Storage Limited West site; M 10” pipeline from Merseyside to Buncefield (M/B pipeline), terminating in the British Pipeline Agency Limited-operated Cherry Tree Farm site; M 14” pipeline from Thames (Coryton) to Kingsbury, Warwickshire, with a spur line to Buncefield (T/K pipeline), terminating in the British Pipeline Agency Limited-operated main site. 9 The three pipelines all transported fuel products in discrete batches, separated by an interface or buffer of mixed product. At the terminal, the operators monitored the arrival of the various grades of fuel and separated them out into dedicated tanks by fuel type. The interface of mixed fuel was diverted to special small tanks to be reinjected into the main large storage tanks, if the fuel specification allowed, or transported back to the refinery as ‘slops’ for re-refining. 5 4 Details of the three published Progress Reports are contained in Further information. These reports have not been revised to take account of more recent findings. 5 Texaco Limited became Chevron Limited on 3 July 2006. 6 The regulatory framework for high hazard sites, including the main requirements of COMAH, is summarised in Annex 8.

Figure 1 Pre-incident layout of Buncefield depot and immediate surroundings 6

10 The separated products left the depot either by road tanker or, in the case of the majority of aviation fuel, via two dedicated pipelines from the British Pipeline Agency Limited main site into the West London Pipeline system, which supplies Heathrow and Gatwick Airports. Tankers operating from Buncefield were of 44 or 18 tonnes capacity and were increasingly operated by specialised transport operators. Timeline of key events 10 December 2005 M Around 19.00, Tank 912 in Bund A at the Hertfordshire Oil Storage Limited West site started receiving unleaded motor fuel from the T/K pipeline, pumping at about 550 m3/hour (flow rates are variable within limits). 11 December 2005 M At approximately midnight (00.00) the terminal was closed to tankers and a stock check of products was carried out. When this was completed at around 01.30, no abnormalities were reported. From approximately 03.00, the level gauge for Tank 912 recorded an unchanged reading. However, filling of Tank 912 continued at a rate of around 550 m3/hour. M Calculations show that at around 05.20 Tank 912 would have been completely full and starting to overflow. Evidence suggests that the protection system which should have shut off the supply of petrol to the tank to prevent overfilling did not operate. From this time onwards, continued pumping caused fuel to cascade down the side of the tank and through the air, leading to the rapid formation of a rich fuel/air mixture that collected in Bund A. M At 05.38 vapour from the escaping fuel is first visible in CCTV footage from a camera looking down the western edge of Bund A, flowing out of the north- west corner of Bund A towards the west.7 M At 05.46 the vapour cloud had thickened to a depth of about 2 m and was flowing out of Bund A in all directions. M By 05.50 the vapour cloud had started flowing off site near the junction of Cherry Tree Lane and Buncefield Lane, following the ground topography. It spread west into Northgate House and Fuji car parks and towards Catherine House. M Between 05.50 and 06.00 the pumping rate down the T/K pipeline to Hertfordshire Oil Storage Limited West, and onwards to Tank 912, gradually rose to around 890 m3/hour. M By 06.01 the vapour cloud extended to the west almost as far as Boundary Way in the gaps between the 3-Com, Northgate and Fuji buildings; to the north-west it extended as far as the nearest corner of Catherine House. It probably extended to the north of the Hertfordshire Oil Storage Limited site as far as Tank 12, operated by British Pipelines Agency Limited, and probably extended south across part of the Hertfordshire Oil Storage Limited site, but not as far as the tanker filling gantry. To the east it reached the British Pipeline Agency Limited site. M At 06.01 the first explosion occurred, followed by further explosions and a large fire that engulfed over 20 large storage tanks. The main explosion event appears to have been centred on the car parks between the Hertfordshire Oil Storage Limited West site and the Fuji and Northgate buildings. 7 7 Timings deduced from CCTV footage have been corrected for any inaccurate setting of the CCTV timers.

M At 06.08 an emergency services major incident was declared and operational command and control was set up near the incident site within minutes. M At 09.00 Strategic Co-ordinating Group (‘Gold’ command’) convened for the first time. M An extensive plume of smoke from the burning fuel dispersed over southern England and beyond.8 The plume could be seen from many kilometres away, and was also clearly identified in satellite images. 12 December 2005 M Noon. Peak of the fire. 25 Hertfordshire pumps were on site with 20 support vehicles and 180 fire-fighters. M There was some loss of secondary containment, as the bunds were unable to fully contain the escaped fuel and water used in fire-fighting (known as ‘fire- water’), which ‘overtopped’ (ie spilled over the top of) the bund walls. 14 December 2005 M HSE assumed control of the Investigation from Hertfordshire Constabulary. M Damage to bunds caused by the intense heat of the fire caused significant loss of secondary containment on the Hertfordshire Oil Storage Limited West and British Pipeline Agency Limited sites. There was also extensive loss of tertiary containment at the site boundaries and large amounts of contaminated liquids escaped off site. The fire service recovered as much of the contaminated run off as possible, but was unable to prevent contamination of groundwater and surface water. 15 December 2005 M ‘Fire all out’ declared by the Fire Service. M 786 000 litres of foam concentrate and 68 million litres of water (53 million ‘clean’ and 15 million recycled) were used overall to contain the incident during the period of fire-fighting operations. M Strategic Co-ordinating Group (‘Gold’ command) convened for the last time. 16 December 2005 M The on-site investigation started (the preliminary planning and information gathering had commenced earlier). HSE issued notices to secure the site, to ensure both that evidence was left undisturbed and that clean up operations were conducted safely. Key parts of the site remained too dangerous for investigators to access for weeks or months. 18 December 2005 M Hertfordshire Oil Storage Limited started surveying roads and buildings on the site. 8 8 Monitoring by the Meteorological Office showed that the visible plume was mainly black carbon (soot). Full details of the plume and related air quality monitoring arrangements are given in the Department for the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs’ Initial review of the air quality aspects of the Buncefield oil depot explosion, available at www.defra.gov.uk/environment/airquality/buncefield/index.htm.

20 December 2005 M HSC formally directed HSE and the Environment Agency to investigate the incident and to make a special report. HSE appointed Taf Powell, Director of HSE’s Offshore Division, to be the Investigation Manager. HSC also announced the appointment of an independent Board to supervise the Investigation. M The control room on the Hertfordshire Oil Storage Limited West site was sufficiently structurally sound to allow entry for gathering records and other evidence. 23 December 2005 M The Investigation team, with assistance from Hertfordshire Constabulary and Hertfordshire Fire and Rescue Service, recovered computers from damaged offices and placed them in safe storage. 5 January 2006 M Hertfordshire Fire and Rescue Service handed control of the site over to the Investigation team. Hertfordshire Constabulary and Hertfordshire Fire and Rescue Service continued to give invaluable support to the Investigation team that was working to gather and secure evidence. 12 January 2006 M HSC appointed Lord Newton of Braintree to chair the independent Board. February 2006 M All fire-water had been removed from site and stored, pending safe disposal. The area around the loading gantry had been made safe for access and tankers, which were present at the time of the incident, were removed. M Investigating personnel gained access to Bund A for the first time. M Internal roadways were cleared and limited work started on removing debris from Bund A. Sampling of fuel in pipework was carried out prior to safe disposal. As fuel residues still remained in interconnecting pipework and damaged tanks, monitoring for flammable vapour was routinely carried out. 9

Emergency response to the Buncefield incident 11 The co-ordination and management framework at any incident identifies three levels of interlinked leadership and co-ordination.9 They are: M Strategic - Gold M Tactical - Silver M Operational - Bronze 12 The emergency services (primarily the Fire and Rescue Service and the police) led the initial response to the incident and its immediate aftermath. Representation of all agencies deployed to resolve the Buncefield incident was established through a meeting process known as the Strategic Co-ordinating Group, also known as Gold command. This included the Environment Agency as a Category 1 responder under the Civil Contingencies Act 2004.10 The Strategic Co-ordinating Group made decisions to ensure that the implementation of strategic aims was delivered by the tactical (Silver) and operational (Bronze) commands. 13 The Strategic Co-ordinating Group had its first multi-agency meeting at 09.00 on 11 December at Hertfordshire Police Headquarters, chaired by the Police Strategic Co-ordinating Group Commander. A decision was made at this meeting to evacuate those with damaged homes and workplaces, and to tell everyone in the immediate vicinity to shelter – ‘go in, stay in, tune in’. 14 The Strategic Co-ordinating Group remained in place until 18:30 on Thursday 15 December. Disposal of fire-water 15 The contaminated fire-water was removed from the site during the first three weeks following the fire, although an unknown quantity contaminated the surface waters and groundwater. Following the event, further contaminated water resulting from rainfall or cleaning operations was removed from the site by tanker and stored along with the fire-water in a number of locations around the country. 16 The fire-water remains in temporary storage, and it is important for this matter to be resolved. The Board understands that the decontamination of fire-water on such an unprecedented scale may require the use of several processes to render the water suitable for its return to the environment. The oil companies are developing options to achieve this, which will be assessed by the Environment Agency to ensure that they have the minimum impact possible on the environment. 17 On 21 June 2006, the Environment Agency was informed that some 800 000 litres of this contaminated water had been released inadvertently from storage into a sewage treatment plant and thereafter into the River Colne, a tributary of the River Thames. The Environment Agency launched an investigation with the assistance of Thames Water Utilities Limited, who operate the storage facility and associated sewage treatment works. This investigation has yet to be concluded. 10 9 UK Resilience. Management and co-ordination of local operations, available at www.ukresilience.info/ccact/errpdfs/err_chap_04.pdf. 10 Other Category 1 responders included the Health Protection Agency (HPA) and the Strategic Health Authority. The Environment Agency’s role was to minimise the risks of environmental damage. HSE is a Category 2 responder, so during the early phase of the incident stood ready to provide advice and expertise on request.

The Investigation 18 Progress Reports 1-3 detail four key aspects of the Investigation, briefly summarised below: M Loss of fuel containment. M Formation of the vapour cloud. M The explosions. M Environmental monitoring. Loss of fuel containment 19 The first Progress Report indicated that the explosion probably resulted from ignition of a vapour cloud emanating from the vicinity of Bund A in the Hertfordshire Oil Storage Limited West site. The Investigation Manager was sufficiently confident in the investigation findings to state in the Third Progress Report that the initial loss of containment which created the vapour cloud occurred from Tank 912 in Bund A, most likely resulting from an overfill of unleaded petrol. 20 To understand how the fuel escaped, the Investigation examined how Tank 912 and its instrumentation and control systems functioned at the time. This examination suggested further lines of inquiry, involving aspects of the automatic tank gauging system, and the high-level alarm system. Investigators wanted to ascertain how the gauging system performed and why automatic shutdown of delivery did not take place as intended when the tank’s ‘ultimate high level’ (ie the specified maximum capacity) was reached. 21 The Third Progress Report detailed findings about instrumentation and control systems on Tank 912. These include the product monitoring systems both for level and temperature, and the ‘ultimate high-level switch’, which was part of the system to prevent overfilling of the tank. As the Third Progress Report explained, from about three hours before the incident, the level gauge remained static, although the tank continued to fill. 22 The ultimate high-level switch should, if triggered, cause an alarm to sound and shut down the supply of fuel to the tank. Since publication of the Third Progress Report, most of the ultimate high-level switch from Tank 912 has been recovered, along with other parts of the instrumentation systems on this and other tanks, for examination. 23 Further investigation into the design of the ultimate high-level switch indicated that the position of a test lever or plate fitted to the switch is critical to ensure continued effective operation. While the relevance of this feature to the Buncefield incident has still to be determined, one of the issues that has arisen from these enquiries relates to the reliance on this type of switch at many similar installations throughout the UK and worldwide. 24 The Competent Authority has taken action to bring this issue to the urgent attention of operators of similar sites in the UK through a Safety Alert.11 The Alert applies to a particular kind of switch used in ultimate high-level alarm systems. Improvement Notices have also been issued, requiring the suppliers to contact users or installers of these switches to alert them to this issue and provide revised instructions and labelling on the safe use, setting, cleaning and maintenance of the switches. The Board notes the continuing co-operation of the suppliers in that process. 11 11 Sites like Buncefield are regulated by a ‘Competent Authority’, as detailed in Annex 8. The full text of the Safety Alert can be found on HSE’s website at www.hse.gov.uk/comah/alerts/sa0106.htm.

Formation of the vapour cloud 25 The Third Progress Report described extensive tests undertaken to model the behaviour of fuel escaping from Tank 912 during overfilling. Tank 912 was fitted with a deflector plate, installed to direct water from sprinklers on the tank’s top to its sides to provide cooling in the event of fire. The tests demonstrated that the deflector plate channelled some of the escaped fuel onto the tank wall, but the rest ran over the top of the plate, fragmenting into droplets that cascaded through the air. Most of the fuel running down the wall hit a wind girder (a structural stiffening ring) and detached from the tank wall, creating a second cascade of droplets. 26 These conditions would promote the evaporation of the lighter components of petrol, eg butanes, pentanes and hexanes. The free-fall of droplets leads to entrainment of air and mixing between the air and fuel vapour, and the formation of a rich fuel/air mixture. Cooling of the surrounding air, already saturated with water vapour by the evaporation, would cause some of the water content to precipitate as an ice mist, which is consistent with the cloud of mist visible on 12 Figure 2 The pattern of fuel dispersion (for illustration only) Not to scale

CCTV. The fuel/air mixture and its accompanying ice mist were heavier than air and so were initially contained within the bund. As the volume of the mixture grew from the continuing overfilling of the tank, it flowed out of the bund, dispersing and flowing off site. Further mixing with the air would have reduced the vapour concentration to the point where significant volumes of the mixture could support an explosion.12 27 Since publication of the Third Progress Report, further work to simulate the overflow of liquid from the full height of Tank 912 has confirmed the pattern of fuel dispersal and vaporisation shown in Figure 2. The explosions 28 The Third Progress Report described a number of potential ignition sources of the main explosion that occurred at 06.01 on 11 December. The prime candidate appears to be an explosion within the emergency generator cabin on the south side of the Northgate building; this is consistent with the site of the main explosion event. However, further study of the CCTV evidence shows a sudden illumination of the east face of the Fuji building, consistent with an explosion or a flash fire at the location of the pumphouse to the east of the lagoon on the Hertfordshire Oil Storage Limited West site. This illumination was recorded by a camera before it was destroyed by the overpressure, suggesting that this explosion or flash fire occurred before the main explosion at 06.01. The pumphouse is the subject of continuing forensic investigation. 29 Much uncertainty remains about why the explosion was so violent, generating overpressures of a magnitude much greater than current understanding of vapour cloud explosions would predict. For example, a method in current use would predict overpressures of 20-50 millibar (mbar) in the open areas of the Northgate and Fuji car parks. The current best estimates of the overpressures that actually occurred in these areas are of 700-1000 mbar, leading to extensive damage to adjacent buildings. Annex 6 describes the mechanics of fire and explosion hazards from fuels such as petrol, as currently understood. 30 Continuing work relevant to gaining a better understanding of the explosion has included extensive sampling to identify the composition of the released fuels, as well as to verify the product distribution throughout the depot. It shows that the released fuel probably had a butane content of 10% and consequently would have had a high vapour pressure, ie it would be capable of evaporating rapidly to produce a flammable vapour. The total butane content is specified in the standard, and depends on whether the product is winter or summer grade. For winter grade petrol the vapour pressure limits are defined as 70-100 kiloPascals (kPa) and for summer they are reduced to 45-70 kPa. See Annex 7 for further information about standards and fuel composition. 31 Further research is needed to try to discover the actual mechanism for generating the unexpectedly high overpressures seen at Buncefield. The Board refers to this again in paragraph 76, and in relation to terms of reference 1 and 5 in Annex 1. 32 The number and severity of injuries at Buncefield was low compared to some other major incidents involving explosions, and there were no fatalities. Annex 6 provides more information about explosion overpressures, and includes tables which show the levels of damage or injury that would normally be expected to result from different overpressures. 13 12 The explosive properties of petrol, including the significance of vapour concentrations, are explained in Annex 6.

Environmental monitoring Air quality 33 An initial report on the results of the air quality monitoring and the impact of the plume on human health and vegetation was published by the Department for the Environment, Food, and Rural Affairs (DEFRA) in May 2006.13 Overall, the report concluded ‘there are unlikely to have been widespread air quality impacts at ground level due to pollutants emitted from the Buncefield fires.’ It went on to say that ‘overall it was concluded that the fire at Buncefield Oil Depot did not result in substantial pollution of soil and grasses’ and ‘that pollutant levels were, in general, unexceptional and typical of UK urban environments.’ 34 The prevailing meteorological conditions at the time of the incident and the high buoyancy of the smoke plume from the fire resulted in most of the plume material reaching a high altitude in the atmosphere. It then dispersed over a wide area with minimal mixing down to ground level. Land investigations 35 Trial pits were excavated starting in February on and surrounding the site to assess the impact on land. The initial findings indicate that the surface layer is contaminated with fuel and fire-fighting products. 36 The extent and degree of the contamination of the land within the Buncefield depot is continuing to be established. Many trial pits have been excavated to investigate the soil beneath the concrete hardstanding and under the bases of the bunds. All of this information will inform the continuing Investigation and allow the Environment Agency to assess the oil companies proposed remediation of the contamination when that is formally submitted to the Competent Authority. Surface water and groundwater monitoring 37 Extensive surface water monitoring immediately following the incident was carried out at a number of locations, as detailed in the Second Progress Report. Monitoring will continue for the foreseeable future at these locations to determine any long-term effects on the aquatic environment. 38 The Environment Agency started to monitor the groundwater under and around the Buncefield site soon after the incident. This monitoring has shown that there is contamination of the groundwater by fire-fighting products, fuels, and fuel-related products. This has been reported in the previous Progress Reports and on the Environment Agency website. 39 Following the detection of contamination, the Environment Agency reviewed the sampling locations for the existing groundwater monitoring network (details of which were reported in the Second Progress Report) and concluded that further monitoring boreholes were required at specified locations. Some of the new boreholes are already installed. 14 13 This report presents and summarises the air quality measurements made during the Buncefield incident, and includes results obtained from targeted local monitoring, measurements from long-term monitoring networks, the modelling undertaken by the Meteorological Office, and emissions estimates of the pollutants from the fire. See Further information for further details.

40 The new monitoring boreholes will ensure that the extent of pollution is understood. Also, the increased groundwater monitoring network will improve the understanding of flow and contaminant transport within the chalk aquifer. 41 In addition to the extensive sampling that is currently underway, the Environment Agency is developing a groundwater conceptual model to assist in understanding the movement of pollutants within the groundwater and aquifer so that it may assess the likely extent of contamination. This model is a conceptual representation of the environment (in this case an aquifer) and the interactions within it. 42 All of the above will aid the assessment of the impact of the contamination on the environment and to human health. It will also assist in determining the best solutions for the clean up of the groundwater and the aquifer. Perfluorooctane sulphonates (PFOS) 43 Perfluorooctane sulphonates are a group of chemicals, collectively identified as PFOS, which have been shown to be hazardous (persistent, bioaccumulative and toxic). PFOS chemicals have been used in a diverse range of applications, including as an additive to aid the spreading properties of fire-fighting foam. PFOS does not appear to degrade in the natural environment. Due to this stability, it has now become widespread both in humans and in the environment. Annex 9 describes the environmental hazards presented by PFOS and the current approach to its regulation. 44 PFOS was not routinely monitored and analysed in any surface water or groundwater in the UK prior to the Buncefield incident. Sampling and analysis for PFOS are not straightforward and until very recently there has been no recognised recommended limit for PFOS levels in groundwater or drinking water against which to assess any results. 45 PFOS was present in some of the foam used to combat the Buncefield fire. At the start of the Buncefield incident, PFOS in the fire-water was recognised as an important potential contaminant for land, surface water and groundwater. The Environment Agency and others have sampled groundwater and surface water extensively for PFOS and other contaminants both on and off site from soon after the explosion. The Board notes that it is the responsibility of the local water company to monitor the quality of drinking water (as opposed to groundwater and rivers), and that the Drinking Water Inspectorate (DWI) regulates the activities of water companies in relation to drinking water quality. Results of monitoring 46 PFOS was detected in the Rivers Ver and Colne in the days immediately following the incident, however, these levels dropped below the lowest threshold detectable by the Environment Agency after a short period. Ongoing testing still shows sporadic detection of PFOS in the rivers. No direct impact has been detected either at the time or in the intervening months on fish or other aquatic species in these waters. Only long-term monitoring will identify if there has been a lasting environmental consequence of the presence of PFOS and its associated fluorinated compounds. 47 Results to date (six months since the incident) of groundwater monitoring have shown the presence of fuels, fuel-related products and residues from the fire- fighting foams in groundwater at a number of locations, but they are most prevalent under and close to the site. 15

48 Although PFOS above the level of three microgrammes per litre (which is the advisory level set by the DWI for PFOS in drinking water) has been detected in environmental monitoring samples, these levels have not been detected in samples of drinking water. 49 It could be many months before the full extent of the contamination of the groundwater is known. The Environment Agency is working with DWI and the local water supply companies to ensure that they are fully aware of sampling results, and are able to act appropriately to safeguard public water supplies. Further monitoring 50 In view of the apparent widespread occurrence of trace quantities of PFOS around the Hemel Hempstead area, some apparently unconnected with Buncefield, the Environment Agency is conducting a targeted national groundwater sampling exercise to investigate the wider prevalence of PFOS and related compounds in groundwater. 51 The initial monitoring programme is being carried out in the period April to July 2006. Groundwater is being sampled at selected sites on the Environment Agency’s national groundwater monitoring network. A range of sites have been selected in rural, urban and industrial areas. Some sites are where fire-fighting foams may have been used, eg fire stations, airbases etc, while others are where such use is not suspected. Approximately 150 sites will be sampled as a part of this programme. 52 If perfluorosurfactant compounds are detected in groundwater, repeat sampling will be carried out to verify the initial results and to investigate persistence. If widespread detection occurs, the programme will be extended beyond July and, if necessary, selected compounds added to the routine monitoring programme. A similar sampling exercise is planned for surface waters to take place over the period July to December 2006. Notification to the European Commission 53 The Competent Authority (at Buncefield, jointly HSE and the Environment Agency) is required under regulation 21(1) and (2) of the COMAH Regulations to inform the European Commission of any major occurrence on a COMAH site. HSE, on behalf of the Competent Authority, issued a short report on 10 March 2006 for inclusion on the Major Accident Reporting System. As further information of international significance becomes known, the Competent Authority will also pass this on to the European Commission and hence the international community. 54 DEFRA has established threshold criteria defining a Major Accident To The Environment (MATTE), based on Schedule 7 (part 1) of the COMAH Regulations. The Environment Agency, using these criteria, has determined that the Buncefield incident is a MATTE, and the Competent Authority has recently reported this to the European Commission. This determination is based on the results of Environment Agency monitoring of groundwater beneath and in the vicinity of the Buncefield site, which has been shown to be contaminated with fuels and fire- fighting foam by-products. This area of contamination is deemed to extend over the one hectare threshold described in the Regulations. The reporting of this MATTE to the European Commission has no impact on the continued monitoring and remediation programme that is already taking place. 16

The continuing Investigation 55 Work continues on the Investigation to ensure that all reasonable lines of enquiry are followed. Evidence continues to be gathered from different sources. The emerging information contributes to a greater understanding of the underlying root causes, and will allow the Investigation team to refine its enquiries further and to bring into focus elements such as wider management systems and organisational factors. 56 Almost all the plant and equipment required for forensic examination has been recovered from the Buncefield site, which will allow the operators to demolish buildings, tanks and bunds. However, further investigation work will be carried out on the integrity of the floors of the bunds together with environmental monitoring of the ground underneath, in particular where tanks were located. 57 The Investigation has also considered previous incidents which may have similarities to the events at Buncefield. These are summarised in Annex 5. Work is in hand to identify other incidents that may be relevant. 17

Part 2 - Issues of concern arising from the Investigation to date 58 Knowledge of the Buncefield incident is still incomplete, but enough is known to draw some broad conclusions about actions which might be taken to improve health, safety and environmental protection at or near oil storage sites, including areas where further work is needed. The Board does not intend to make any comment at this stage on possible legal proceedings. The initial observations set out here concern broader issues. The Board will continue to ensure that information is made publicly available, either through its own reports or via the Competent Authority, where it is necessary to ensure continued safety, while also attempting to preserve the integrity of any future criminal proceedings that might be brought by the relevant enforcing authorities. 59 The Board’s observations and conclusions at this stage fall into three areas, which are considered further below: M Design and operation of storage sites. M Emergency response to incidents. M Advice to planning authorities. 60 We believe these, together with our examination of HSE’s and the Environment Agency’s roles in regulating the activities on the Buncefield site, will form the broad scope of our further work. Design and operation of storage sites 61 The Buncefield incident involved failures of primary, secondary and tertiary means to contain fuel and associated fire-waters. M Primary means are the tanks, pipes and vessels that hold liquids, and the devices fitted to them to allow them to be safely operated. M Secondary means are enclosed areas around storage vessels (often called bunds), created usually by concrete or earth walls. Their purpose is to hold any escaping liquids and any water or chemicals used in fire-fighting. M Tertiary means are things such as drains designed to limit the passage of chemicals off site, raised kerbs to prevent liquids that have breached the bunds from escaping into the general area around the site, etc. 62 The Board has already seen sufficient information from the Investigation to be able to express an obvious, but nonetheless important opinion that safety, health and environmental protection are of paramount importance at sites like Buncefield. We would expect this point to be uppermost in the mind of the industry-chaired task group recently convened by HSE to pursue improvements to safety and environmental protection at fuel depots. 18

63 The occurrence of a massive fuel vapour explosion confirms the overriding need to ensure the integrity of the primary means of containment; in other words, to make sure that liquid does not escape from the vessels in which it is normally meant to be confined. 64 Safety and planning assumptions at fuel depots like Buncefield have until now been based upon fires in pools of escaped liquid, held in check by bunds while the emergency services establish control. The formation of a huge vapour cloud from tank storage was not considered a sufficiently credible scenario for land use planning purposes.14 One particular lesson from the Buncefield incident is therefore that such a cloud can form while a highly flammable liquid such as unleaded petrol is escaping from primary containment in a storage tank, and where the path of escape involves cascading, fragmenting and dispersing the liquid from height (eg from the vents in the top of a tank that is being overfilled). 65 The Investigation has demonstrated that ‘overtopping’ a tank with highly flammable fuel is more likely to produce a potentially explosive mixture than pooling from a lower level escape, such as may result from a tank failure. The Investigation has also shown that the design of the tank itself may have contributed to the vapour formation at Buncefield. This suggests that design and construction of tanks and pipework that could be favourable to the formation of flammable vapours should be discouraged. 66 Secondary and tertiary means of containment are vital for environmental protection. However, the secondary containment provided by bunds around tanks is of lesser value where there is rapid formation of vapour that will fairly quickly overflow the bund wall. Tertiary containment also has little effect against a cloud of vapour, as it is intended to intercept and hold liquid flowing along the ground. It is the Board’s view that the ineffectiveness of customary means of secondary and tertiary containment against migration of large volumes of vapour re-emphasises that the most urgent focus of attention should be on preventing loss of primary containment and, should that occur, inhibiting rapid large-scale vaporisation and any subsequent dangerous migration of a flammable vapour. 67 The Investigation also revealed that the fire pumphouse that provided the means to distribute cooling water for the whole Buncefield site was immediately adjacent to, and downhill from, Bund A. As described in paragraph 28, recent CCTV analysis has identified this pumphouse as a likely source of one of the early ignitions of the flammable vapour. The loss of the pumphouse, probably from an internal explosion of vapour that had entered from the surrounding cloud, immediately rendered inoperative the fire-fighting provisions for the site. It is foreseeable that flammable vapour in an enclosure could, if ignited, cause damage within that enclosure. The risk of flammable vapour reaching fire pumps increases the closer the pumps are to tanks containing volatile flammable liquids. The industry-chaired task group may want to review whether current guidance related to the siting and/or means of protection of emergency response facilities is suitable at sites such as Buncefield. 68 Following publication of the Investigation Manager’s first Progress Report in February 2006, the Competent Authority (HSE with the Environment Agency in England and Wales, and with the Scottish Environment Protection Agency in Scotland) began a programme of site inspections to ensure operators reviewed key design and operational aspects of their sites, a process supported by the findings of subsequent Progress Reports. 19 14 At Buncefield, the formation of a flammable vapour cloud at the tanker loading gantry, as opposed to the tank storage areas, was considered by the Competent Authority and site operators, but the level of off-site hazard this would pose was judged to be lower than a large pool fire originating from the tank storage area.

69 The preliminary findings of the Competent Authority programme were published on 13 June 2006.15 As a result of the programme, three Improvement Notices have been served. The Board welcomes this initiative and looks forward to the publication of the detailed findings of the Competent Authority programme of inspection this autumn. The Board notes the industry’s efforts in working with the Competent Authority to review the findings from both the Investigation and the Safety Alert review, and to make recommendations to the joint industry/regulator task group regarding action needed to improve risk control. In particular, the Board notes that part of this work will be to review and revise published guidance on handling flammable liquids at storage sites by mid-2007, and expects this work to be pursued with vigour. 70 That guidance should be the culmination and record of a substantial effort by the industry, working with the regulators, and begun at once, to develop and implement better methods for handling flammable liquids at storage sites, particularly where volatile fuels are handled, with the principal aim of safely confining them in the vessels intended for that purpose. By ‘methods’ the Board means the plant, equipment, management systems, operational procedures and working practices provided to achieve safe operation and the ongoing verification by operators, supported by the Competent Authority, that all these control measures are effective. 71 In summary, the Investigation has revealed a number of matters concerning the design and operation of sites such as Buncefield where improvements to maintaining primary containment must be considered by the industry, working closely with the Competent Authority. These matters include: M the electronic monitoring of tanks and pipework, and associated alarms that warn of abnormal conditions; M the detection of flammable vapours in the immediate vicinity of tanks and pipework; M the response to the detection of abnormal conditions, such as automatic closure of tank inlet valves and incoming pipeline valves; M the extent to which the exterior construction of tanks (eg tank top design) inhibits, or contributes to, flammable vapour formation; M the siting and/or means of protection of emergency response facilities; and M the recording of monitoring, detection and alarm systems and their availability (eg off site) for periodic review of the effectiveness of the control measures by the operator and the Competent Authority, as well as in root cause analysis should there be an incident. 72 Where a need for additional systems is identified, HSC and the Competent Authority should satisfy themselves that current legal requirements are robust enough, and supported with sufficient resources, to ensure that these systems are provided and maintained at every fuel storage site where the risks require them, without relying upon voluntary compliance. It has not been established whether changes in the law or in the resources available to the Competent Authority are required to achieve this end. The Board is, however, clear that the severity of the Buncefield incident makes a compelling case for any such changes to be made as a matter of very high legislative priority, should the need be identified. 20 15 The full report is available on HSE’s website at www.hse.gov.uk/comah.

73 As well as ensuring the effectiveness of primary containment, the industry, working with the Competent Authority, should embark on a review of the purpose, specifications, capacity, construction and maintenance of secondary and tertiary containment, and in particular the bunds around tanks. This work should lead to revised guidance, either as part of that referred to in paragraphs 69 and 70, or produced separately – but on at least as rapid a timescale. Again, the necessary standards should be capable of being insisted upon by law. 74 The Board is clear that it will wish to offer further advice when the Investigation is further advanced. This might deal with, for instance, the human and organisational factors that contribute to the safe operation of a major hazard site such as a fuel storage depot. Such factors include, for example, job organisation, management of organisational change, monitoring and supervision, training and control room layout. 75 In the longer term, it may prove necessary to consider additional standards for the overall layout of storage sites. 76 The system for delivering fuel safely around the country depends on good communications between those responsible for delivery and those responsible for receiving the delivered batches, to ensure site receiving fuel are able to accept deliveries safely. The adequacy of existing safety arrangements, including communications, may also need to be reviewed. The Board expects to return to these and other matters in due course. 77 Further work is needed to research the actual mechanism for generating the unexpectedly high explosion overpressures seen at Buncefield. This is a matter of keen international interest, and participation from a broad range of experts, as well as the industry, is essential to ensure the transparency and credibility of any research programme. The Board will consider further recommendations about the nature and scope of such work. Emergency response to incidents 78 Improving the arrangements to prevent fires and explosions in no way lessens the need to have effective emergency arrangements in the event of an incident. This covers both planning for emergencies and the effectiveness of the response. Operators of top-tier COMAH sites are required by law to prepare adequate emergency plans to deal with the on-site consequences of possible incidents, and they must also provide local authorities with information to enable them to prepare emergency plans to deal with the off-site consequences. The adequacy of these plans depends, among other things, on a full appreciation of the potential for major accidents. In the light of the emerging findings: M Operators of oil storage depots should review their on-site emergency plans and the adequacy of information they supply to local authorities to ensure zthey take full account of the potential for a vapour cloud explosion, as well as fires. From the ‘forthwith actions’ taken by depot operators and the Competent Authority in response to the Competent Authority’s Safety Alert of 21 February 2006, responsible operators should have already undertaken such reviews. The Competent Authority must ensure that this is the case and work with the industry to ensure that all learning is fully shared. 21

M The public health implications of potential vapour cloud explosions must be considered in both on-site and off-site emergency plans. Though the public health impact of Buncefield appears to have been minimal, this may not necessarily have been the case under different conditions.16 M As with on-site protective systems, HSC and the Competent Authority bodies should satisfy themselves that legal requirements are robust enough to ensure any necessary changes to emergency plans are duly made. 79 Several separate reviews are looking at the effectiveness of the emergency response to Buncefield. The emergency services, particularly the fire and police services, responded impressively and on a massive scale that was almost certainly unprecedented in modern times. Inevitably there are lessons to be learned from such an exceptional event. This is particularly important given the newness of the local, regional and national resilience arrangements tested at Buncefield. The Board intends to return to this topic when more information is available from those reviews. Meanwhile the Board has the following observations: M Given the huge cost of the Buncefield incident, it is essential not to miss any of the lessons it has provided for emergency response. Like the response itself, this is a multi-agency task that requires a clear lead. It will be part of the Board’s ongoing work to establish a clear picture of the lead provided by central Government for first responders. M The public health impacts of Buncefield appear to have been minimal. Nevertheless, the incident has revealed the importance of prompt, useful advice to early responders such as the Fire and Rescue Services, and to the public. There may also be scope to improve the co-ordination of sampling and monitoring activities, particularly in the early stages of major incidents. The Board welcomes the establishment of a Health Protection Agency-led working group aiming to establish frameworks and agreed working practices for any future post-incident environmental sampling, and awaits with interest the results of this work. The Board also welcomes the steps being taken by the Health Protection Agency to draw to the attention of regional resilience fora in Britain the immediate lessons of Buncefield for the provision of health protection advice during a major incident. M The local residential and business communities have interests to be considered, eg the maintenance of employment and support in effecting a rapid return to social normality. This appears to be both a regional and, on the scale of Buncefield, a national issue. It is not clear to the Board how far emergency planning arrangements have taken account of this aspect in the past. The Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government, through the Government Office for the East of England, recently established a task force to investigate options for Government support to businesses and local economies in the period following an exceptional disaster. This initiative is very welcome and the Board hopes swift progress will be made in this work. 22 16 The low impact on public health of the Buncefield incident is an initial conclusion of the Health Protection Agency. Their review of the health effects of the Buncefield fire is available at www.hpa.org.uk/explosions/hemel.htm.

Advice to planning authorities 80 One of the starkest issues raised by the Buncefield explosion is the location of sites with such major hazard potential alongside neighbouring commercial and residential development. The situation poses the fundamental planning question that all parties have to address – quite simply, what to do about such development. 81 The Board is acutely aware of the problems that planning uncertainties cause for local communities, particularly those directly affected by the Buncefield incident. Decisions about rebuilding businesses near the Buncefield depot – crucial to the livelihood of those who work in those businesses and to the local economy in general – hinge on decisions about rebuilding the whole of the area, including the depot itself. 82 A key element of the land use planning process for developments around Buncefield and many similar sites is the advice HSE provides to planning authorities. The Board, in its statement of 9 May on publishing the Third Progress Report, indicated its view that enough information had emerged at that stage to enable HSE to review as a matter of urgency the basis and standard of the advice it provides. The Board notes that HSE has acted on that challenge and expects to produce some preliminary conclusions in the autumn of this year. 83 The Board recognises that this is a complex issue for which there are no simple solutions. There is a need to balance the risks and benefits of development – a judgement made no easier by technical and scientific uncertainties. This is illustrated by the fact that HSE’s advice on this site was based on a representative ‘worst credible scenario’ of a major liquid fuel pool fire. A vapour cloud explosion was initially considered, but arising from tanker loading operations and not tank storage. A pool fire was assessed as presenting the greater off-site hazard. The Buncefield incident brings into question the assessment policy for many oil/fuel depot sites, and the zone setting method which it informs. 84 The Board intends to address these issues in more detail, but not before seeing the preliminary conclusions of HSE’s review. A measured approach is justified since the likelihood of a similar explosion remains low, and should be made lower still by a programme of actions designed to increase the reliability of primary containment. In our view, the importance of reaching conclusions that are considered, costed, and sustainable greatly outweighs any benefit that might be derived from coming to summary judgements. 85 We will be interested to know HSE’s views on the desirability and feasibility of an approach to advise on developments around sites like Buncefield based more on consideration of risk. Under such an approach, the likelihood of major incidents, taking into account all the measures in place against them, would play a more explicit part than hitherto in determining planning advice. 86 The Board has also noted the incremental development around Buncefield (and presumably other sites).17 Given that most planning advice currently focuses on specific developments subject to planning approval, this could mean that in the future, more attention should be paid to the total population at risk from a major hazard site. The Board welcomes the Ministerial Statement laid in the House of Commons on 15 May, which referred to cross-Government work on this issue currently being co-ordinated by the Cabinet Office, and to which HSE is making an important contribution, and looks forward to the consultation with stakeholders expected later this year. 23 17 The history of development within a 3 km radius of the Buncefield depot site between 1966 and 2005 is shown in Figure 5, Annex 3.

Annex 1 Terms of reference and progress This annex sets out the eight terms of reference for the Investigation and explains the progress that is being made towards accomplishment of each of them. 1 To ensure the thorough investigation of the incident, the factors leading up to it, its impact both on and off site, and to establish its causation including root causes The Board has published three Progress Reports from the Investigation Manager. These have revealed the main facts of the incident, but have not speculated on why control of the fuel was lost. The explosion mechanism, ie the means by which unexpectedly high overpressures were generated, is subject to significant further investigation. This may require wider expert consultation and research. The criminal investigation is pursuing all reasonable lines of inquiry into the facts and causes of the incident to enable the Competent Authority (HSE and the Environment Agency) to take a view on legal proceedings. 2 To identify and transmit without delay to duty holders and other appropriate recipients any information requiring immediate action to further safety and/or environmental protection in relation to storage and distribution of hydrocarbon fuels The Competent Authority issued a Safety Alert to around 1100 COMAH duty holders on 21 February 2006. Special attention was paid to 108 fuel depot owners storing COMAH quantities of fuel in Great Britain, seeking a review of arrangements for detecting and dealing with conditions affecting containment of fuel. Most duty holders responded to the alert by the Easter deadline. Meanwhile, the Competent Authority visited all 108 depots to follow up the alert. An interim report was published on 13 June and is available at www.hse.gov.uk/comah/alert.htm. The Environment Agency issued further advice to its inspectors to investigate secondary (bunding) and tertiary (drains and barriers) containment at depots in England and Wales in response to the Second Progress Report. The Environment Agency is expected to publish a report in the summer. The Environment Agency also continues to monitor the effects of Buncefield on the surrounding environment and to issue updates on its website, www.environment-agency.gov.uk. The initiative is being handled separately for Scotland by the Scottish Environment Protection Agency, with joint inspections undertaken with HSE covering primary, secondary and tertiary containment, and management systems. However, it is intended that an overall view of the situation in Britain will be available this summer. On 16 June investigators served two Improvement Notices on the manufacturers of the high-level alarm switch installed on Tank 912, having identified a potential problem at other sites related to the setting of the switch for normal operations following testing. This was followed up by a Safety Alert from HSE on 4 July alerting operators relying on such switches of the potential problem. 24

The Chairman of the Buncefield Board wrote to the Chief Executive of the Health Protection Agency on 3 July enquiring into progress with informing regional resilience groups of early lessons learned from Buncefield, focusing on public health issues in the immediate aftermath of a major airborne incident. 3 To examine the Health and Safety Executive’s and the Environment Agency’s role in regulating the activities on this site under the COMAH Regulations, considering relevant policy guidance and intervention activity Work is progressing steadily on both parts of the review, concerning respectively HSE’s and the Environment Agency’s prior regulatory activities at Buncefield. The full findings of the review will be incorporated into the Board’s final report (see term of reference 8). Any immediate important lessons from the examination of the Competent Authority’s prior role will be incorporated into the lessons learned programme under term of reference 5. 4 To work closely with all relevant stakeholders, both to keep them informed of progress with the Investigation and to contribute relevant expertise to other inquiries that may be established The ongoing impact on residents and businesses of the Buncefield incident has been reported in all three Progress Reports. The Board has maintained an active interest in releasing as much new information as possible to the community and its representatives, such as the local MP Mike Penning, to assist in understanding the events of 11 December 2005, and to maintain public confidence that progress is being made with the Investigation. Residents and businesses have shown remarkable resilience in great adversity. Dacorum Borough Council in particular, but also St Albans and Hertfordshire Councils, have performed extremely effectively in very difficult circumstances, and have supported the Board in its engagement with residents and businesses, as has Mike Penning MP. The Board has also kept key Government stakeholders informed of the Investigation’s progress, and has maintained its interest in developments that have taken place since Buncefield to help manage the aftermath and support a return to normality for residents and businesses. The Board has engaged with all the public sector agencies involved in the emergency response to Buncefield and has met with a number of the key agencies, particularly the Category 1 (Gold) responders. This is not an issue in which the Board has primary responsibility but, as reported in this Initial Report, the Board is giving further consideration to emergency response and emergency preparedness issues, and will say more on this later. The Buncefield Major Incident Investigation made presentations to two multi- agency debriefing sessions on 21 and 28 June to inform regional resilience groups around Britain of the response to the Buncefield incident. 25

5 To make recommendations for future action to ensure the effective management and regulation of major accident risk at COMAH sites. This should include consideration of offsite as well as onsite risks and consider prevention of incidents, preparations for response to incidents, and mitigation of their effects HSE, the Environment Agency and the Health Protection Agency are contributing to this work to assist the Board to make sensible, practical and affordable recommendations for improvements in the light of the Buncefield incident. Key workstreams are in environmental protection; land use planning; fire and explosion mechanisms; control and instrumentation; human and organisational factors; health; emergency response and preparedness; and regulatory impact. HSE has convened an industry-chaired task group that includes the Environment Agency and the Scottish Environment Protection Agency, to consider design and operation issues. The Board is considering how to make suitable arrangements for further research and modelling of explosion mechanisms in flammable vapour clouds. HSE has begun work on changes to land use planning advice and is working closely with a Cabinet Office-led team on applying new knowledge of risks to society in the planning system. The Health Protection Agency is consulting key agencies to improve public health advice and support during significant pollution events. 6 To produce an initial report for the Health and Safety Commission and the Environment Agency as soon as the main facts have been established. Subject to legal considerations, this report will be made public This element is discharged by the publication of this report. 7 To ensure that the relevant notifications are made to the European Commission A report from the Environment Agency and HSE was made to the European Commission on 10 March. Subsequently, the Environment Agency declared Buncefield a Major Accident To The Environment (MATTE), and the Competent Authority has recently reported this to the European Commission. 8 To make the final report public The timing for the publication of the final report remains uncertain and is of course linked to progress on the main terms of reference and to any decision on any criminal proceedings that might be considered. The possibilities include a further interim report or reports; decisions must necessarily depend on the timing of developments and consideration of the public interest. 26

Annex 2 Members of the independent Board The Rt. Hon. Lord Newton of Braintree has been a life peer since 1997 after spending 23 years as a Conservative Member of Parliament for Braintree, Essex. From 1982 to 1988 he held ministerial positions at the Department of Health and Social Security. In 1988 he joined the Cabinet as Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster and Minister at the DTI. He then held the post of Secretary of State for Social Security from 1989 to 1992 when he was appointed Leader of the House of Commons, which he held until 1997. In 2002 he chaired the Committee that reviewed the operation of the Anti-Terrorism, Crime and Security Act 2001. Professor Dougal Drysdale is one of the leading international authorities in Fire Safety Engineering. He was the Chairman of the International Association of Fire Safety Science until September 2005 and is currently the editor of the leading scientific journal in the field, Fire Safety Journal. His wide range of research interests includes the ignition characteristics of combustible materials, flame spread and various aspects of fire dynamics. He is a Fellow of the Royal Society of Edinburgh and a Fellow of both the Institution of Fire Engineers and the Society of Fire Protection Engineers. Dr Peter Baxter is a Consultant Physician in Occupational and Environmental Medicine at Cambridge University and Addenbrooke’s Hospital, Cambridge. In the past he has advised the Government on the impacts on public health relating to air quality standards, major chemical incidents, natural disasters and climate change. Taf Powell is Director of HSE’s Offshore Division. He graduated in Geology and Chemistry from Nottingham University. His oil field career has been split between working in the UK and abroad in offshore exploration and development and regulation of the sector in licensing, well operations, policy and safety regulation. In 1991 he joined HSE’s Offshore Division from BP and started work to develop the new offshore regulatory framework, one of Lord Cullen’s recommendations following his inquiry into the Piper Alpha disaster. As HSE’s Operations Manager, based in Aberdeen, he then led inspection teams and well engineering specialists responsible for enforcing the new regulations until 2000 when he took up his current role. Dr Paul Leinster is Director of Operations at the Environment Agency. Up until March 2004 he was the Director of Environmental Protection, having joined the Agency in 1998. Prior to this he was the Director of Environmental Services with SmithKline Beecham. Previous employers also include BP International, Schering Agrochemicals and the consultancy firm Thomson-MTS where he was Managing Director. Paul has a degree in Chemistry, a PhD in Environmental Engineering from Imperial College and an MBA from the Cranfield School of Management. Paul has worked for 30 years in the health and safety and environmental field. David Ashton is Director of HSE’s Field Operations North-West and Headquarters Division. He joined HSE in 1977 as an inspector in the west of Scotland where he dealt with a wide range of manufacturing and service industries, including construction, engineering and the health services. In 1986 he joined Field Operations HQ to deal with machinery safety. He then held the post of Principal Inspector of manufacturing in Preston for two years, before being appointed as a management systems auditor to examine offshore safety cases in the newly formed Offshore Division. In 1993 he became Head of HSE’s Accident Prevention Advisory Unit, looking at the management of health and safety in organisations. Between 1998 and 2003 David was HSE’s Director of Personnel, before being appointed to his current position. 27

Annex3 Planning history of Buncefield site and neighbouring developments 1 Planning permission was granted in 1966 to Shell Mex and BP Limited, Regent Oil Co Limited, Mobil Oil Co Limited, and Petrofina (GB) Limited to develop 91 acres of land at Buncefield for the construction of a storage and distribution depot for petroleum products. St Albans Rural District Council initially refused the application on the grounds that it was an inappropriate development in the Green Belt and would have a detrimental effect on the amenity of the locality. On appeal, the Minister of Housing and Local Government granted permission subject to a number of conditions relating to design of the site, tree planting and restrictions on the size of office premises. 2 At the time that the terminal was built in 1968, the site was well screened by hedges and trees, but there were about nine dwellings on the periphery of the site to the north whose amenities were affected by the site, and a farm to the south. One of the nine dwellings to the north was converted in 2000 to create five separate properties. Since 1968 there has been general encroachment and development of adjacent land. This can be seen on the map in Figure 5. The majority of this building development took place during the period from the mid 1960s to the early 1980s, comprising the construction or redevelopment of residential properties and a number of schools and industrial premises to the west of the site, all of which fell within a 3 km radius as shown on the map. Between 1990 and 2006, a few additional industrial premises were built around the site. 3 Dacorum Borough Council is the principal planning authority for the site, but a small section to the north of Cherry Tree Lane falls to St Albans District Council. 4 The local planning authority decides whether developments can go ahead. But arrangements have existed since 1972 for local planning authorities to obtain consultee advice from HSE and its predecessors about the safety implications for developments from risks associated with major hazards. Between 1991 and 2005, 28 applications were passed to HSE for advice relating to a variety of commercial or residential developments around the Buncefield site. HSE advised against four of these proposals and advised that seven others could be allowed subject to certain conditions. As far as is known, the local authority followed HSE’s advice in these cases. 5 In addition to these specific developments on which HSE was a statutory consultee, HSE is from time to time consulted on other matters. For example, HSE was consulted on four local structure plan revisions. 6 The complex began operations in 1968 after a pipeline was constructed to link two Shell refineries at Stanlow at Ellesmere Port in Cheshire and Shell Haven on the Thames Estuary at Stanford-le-Hope in Thurrock. The depot operated originally under licence given under the Petroleum (Consolidation) Acts 1928 and

  1. The Planning (Hazardous Substances) Act 1990 and subsequent statutory

provisions, the Planning (Hazardous Substances) Regulations 1992 (PHS Regulations) and later the Planning (Control of Major Accident Hazards) Regulations 1999 introduced new procedures for consent to be sought from the hazardous substances authority to store hazardous substances. 28

7 The consent identifies the hazardous substances and their location on site and defines certain conditions of use such as maximum size, temperature and pressure of storage vessels. Figure 6 contains some details of consents obtained for the Buncefield depot. The consents for Shell UK Oil Limited have been included in this table as they have not been revoked, although Shell no longer operates from this site. HSE’s role in land use planning 8 HSE’s specific role in land use planning is twofold: M Under the PHS Regulations, the presence of hazardous chemicals above specified threshold quantities requires consent from the local hazardous substances authority, which is usually also the local planning authority. HSE is a statutory consultee on all hazardous substances consent applications. Its role is to consider the hazards and risks which would be presented by the hazardous substance(s) to people in the vicinity, and on the basis of this to advise the hazardous substances authority whether or not consent should be granted. In advising on consent, HSE may specify conditions that should be imposed by the hazardous substances authority, over and above compliance with statutory health and safety requirements, to limit risks to the public (eg limiting which substances can be stored on site, or requiring tanker delivery rather than on-site storage). Hazardous substances authorities should notify HSE of the outcome of all applications for consent, and where consent has been granted should supply copies of the site plans and conditions. M HSE uses the information contained in consent applications to establish a consultation distance around the installation. This usually comprises three zones or risk contour areas. The consultation distance is based on the maximum quantity of hazardous substance(s) that the site is entitled to have under its consent. HSE notifies the local planning authorities of all consultation distances in their areas. The General Development Procedure Order 1995 requires the local planning authority to consult HSE about certain proposed developments (essentially those that would result in an increase in population) within any consultation distance. HSE advises the local planning authority on the nature and severity of the risks presented by the installation to people in the surrounding area so that those risks are given due weight by the local planning authority when making its decision. Taking account of the risks, HSE will advise against the proposed development or simply note that it does not advise against it. 9 HSE’s approach to land use planning is set out in more detail in Annex 2 of the first Progress Report. Some of this process is now being devolved to certain local planning authorities. 10 The consultation distance represents the furthest distance at which HSE wishes to be consulted about developments near hazardous installations/major accident hazard pipelines. This does not mean that there is no risk beyond the consultation distance, just that the predicted risks are sufficiently low that they need not be part of a planning decision. 11 Within the consultation distance, HSE undertakes an assessment of the hazards and risks from the installation and produces a map with three contours representing defined levels of harm or risk which any individual at that contour would be subject to, based on information relating to the hazardous substances consent. The harm or risk to an individual is greater the closer to the installation. 29

The contours form three zones, with the outer contour defining the consultation distance around major hazard sites. The local authority consults HSE on relevant proposed developments within this consultation distance. 12 When a planning application is received, HSE or the local planning authority first identifies in which of the three zones the proposed development is located. Secondly, the proposed development is classified into one of four ‘sensitivity levels’. The main factors that determine these levels are the number of people at the development, their sensitivity (vulnerable populations such as children, old people) and the intensity of the development. With these two factors known, a simple decision matrix is used to give a clear ‘Advise Against’ or ‘Do not Advise Against’ response to the local planning authority, as shown below: 13 More comprehensive guidance on the allocation of sensitivity levels is given on the Planning Advice for Developments near Hazardous Installations website (www.hse.gov.uk/landuseplanning/padhi.pdf). 30 Figure 3 Consultation distance and zones Figure 4 Land use planning ‘sensitivity levels’ and decision matrix Level of sensitivity Development in Development in Development in inner zone middle zone outer zone 1 DAA DAA DAA 2 AA DAA DAA 3 AA AA DAA 4 AA AA AA Sensitivity level 1 Example Factories Sensitivity level 2 Example Houses Sensitivity level 3 Example Vulnerable members of society eg primary schools, old people’s homes Sensitivity level 4 Example Football ground/large hospital DAA means Do not Advise Against the development AA means Advise Against the development

History of the consultation distance around the Buncefield site 14 HSE has had arrangements with local planning authorities for consultation around developments in the vicinity of major hazards since the early 1970s, although it was not until the implementation of the Notification of Installations Handling Hazardous Substances Regulations 1982 (NIHHS Regulations) in 1983 that HSE first received notification from Shell Mex and BP of the terminal as a major hazard. A generic non-site specific consultation distance of 250 m from the boundary of the site was set for consultation purposes and the relevant local planning authority was notified. At that time it was customary to issue a generic consultation distance without performing a site-specific assessment. This consultation distance was based upon the assumption that the main hazard was from thermal radiation following a major fire within the bund. 15 In 1992 the site expanded and Mobil and Shell sent another notification and application for consent to store certain amounts of flammable material. The existing consultation distance was maintained at a generic 250 m from the site boundary. There are no records of the technical assessments that were performed when the local planning authority sought advice on developments within the vicinity of the site, but early assessments were based then, as now, upon a pool fire following loss of containment of a substantial quantity of flammable liquid. However, for tanks that were bunded there was a continuing assumption that any subsequent fire would be within the confines of the bund. 16 In 1996 a site-specific reassessment was performed based upon consented amounts of flammable material, and the consultation distance was reduced from 250 m to 190 m. The original 250 m was set in the early days of HSE giving land use planning advice, to ensure that all developments that might be advised against would be subject to consultation. By 1996, technical policy and methodology had been reviewed. In addition, three-zone maps were now being produced so that development control advice could be given more quickly and efficiently. The new policy assumed that the bund would not be able to contain the full contents of a tank following a sudden, catastrophic failure. It was assumed that the bund would be overtopped and the resulting pool fire would extend beyond the confines of the bund. 17 In July 2001 another consultation distance was calculated due to an extensive reassessment of the hazards from the site following the submission of a batch of new consent applications from the oil companies. The regulations requiring consent to store flammable substances were changed in 1999 to include additional flammable materials. The consultation distance was reduced from 190 m to 185 m. This was unchanged following a further consent application on 8 July 2005 from BP. The presence of the additional material did not alter the main basis of the calculation which assumed the worst-case event was the catastrophic failure of the largest tank containing gasoline. The consultation distance was reduced slightly owing to a slight change to the inputs in the model used to perform the calculations. See Figure 7 for a representative plan of the site showing the consultation distance since July 2001. 31

32 Figure 5 Developments within 3 km of the Buncefield site between 1966 and 2005

Some details of hazardous substances consents issued for the Buncefield oil storage and transfer depot Operator Hazardous Substances Consent applications Texaco Limited 19 September 1983: 10 571 tonnes motor spirit Mobil Oil Co Limited 8 November 1983: 17 650 tonnes petrol Hertfordshire Oil 30 November 1992: 34 020 tonnes motor spirit Storage Limited 18 October 1999: 15 314 tonnes kerosene BP Oil UK Limited 18 November 1992: 17 650 tonnes gasoline in name of Mobil Oil Co Limited 26 October 1999: 15 080 tonnes automotive petrol and other petroleum spirits 21 October 2003: 15 200 tonnes automotive petrol and 10 522 tonnes petroleum products classified as dangerous for the environment (most likely to be gasoline or diesel) 3 May 2005: 26 900 tonnes automotive petrol and 10 522 tonnes petroleum products classified as dangerous for the environment (most likely to be gasoline or diesel) British Pipeline 26 October 1999: 70 000 tonnes automotive petrol and other Agency Limited petroleum spirits Shell UK Oil Limited 19 September 1983*: 37 397 tonnes HFLs Class 4 and 42 561 tonnes kerosene and white oils 30 November 1992: 34 013 tonnes petroleum spirit and 39 000 tonnes diesel, gas oil and kerosene 1999: 33 000 tonnes motor spirit and 17 000 tonnes kerosene

place, ie these were notifications under NIHHS and consent was not required. 33 Figure 6 Hazardous substances consents issued

34 Figure 7 Plan representing the hazardous substances consents and consultation area around the Buncefield depot since July 2001 (for illustration only)

Annex4 UK petroleum refinery, pipeline and storage system Refineries 1 Petroleum products in the UK are predominantly supplied from nine refineries where crude oil is refined into liquified petroleum gas (LPG), petrol, diesel, aviation fuel, gas oil, heating oil and residual bitumen. From a typical barrel of North Sea crude oil, approximately 3% becomes LPG, 37% petrol, 25% diesel, 20% kerosene (aviation fuel/heating oil) and 12% fuel oil (for power generation). Figure 8 shows the location of the refineries. They are sited on the coast or on estuaries so that they can receive crude oil by ship. 35 Figure 8 UK oil refinery and pipeline network

2 Storing, moving and delivering these fuels to the end user are important elements of the UK economy. Each year approximately 75 million tonnes of petroleum products are moved around the UK. 3 All nine main refineries in the UK have substantial storage for finished products coming out of the refinery. However, given the location of refineries, there are also large storage terminals around the country, generally near major conurbations. These terminals are mainly supplied from the refineries by pipeline, rail and sea. Often they are run as joint ventures between a number of oil companies. Commercial arrangements are commonly negotiated between companies to draw products on exchange from another company’s terminal. This avoids the need to transport products over long distances from one terminal to another. Figure 9 shows the place of oil storage and transfer depots in the UK oil distribution system. Petroleum pipelines 4 The UK mainland has a network of approximately 1500 miles of petroleum pipelines. Some of them are owned by individual oil companies dedicated to supplying their own terminals, and some are owned by joint ventures such as United Kingdom Oil Pipelines Limited (UKOP). Others belong to the Government. Once installed, underground pipelines offer substantial environmental and safety benefits, not least from the elimination of road tanker journeys or transportation by rail or sea. 5 These pipelines are used to transport a variety of fuels, including petrol, diesel, heating oil and aviation fuel. After a batch of predetermined volume of one fuel has been delivered through the pipeline, a different fuel may be transported. As the fuels travel along the pipeline, a relatively small degree of mixing will occur at the interface. As this volume of mixed fuels has to be reprocessed, the pipeline operator manages the flow rates continually to minimise these interfaces to reduce wastage. Around 30 million tonnes of fuel are moved around the UK in this way in a year. 36 Figure 9 The UK oil distribution system

Annex 5 Incidents that have similarities with the Buncefield incident Note: The root cause of each of the above incidents was the spillage (loss of containment) of a large quantity of gasoline (eg >100 tonnes) due to overfilling of a tank, or failure of pipework inside a bund. In each case, the windspeed was very low, or zero, and a significant vapour cloud was able to form. The feature of the Buncefield explosion that appeared unique was the apparent lack of obstacles which could induce turbulence and thereby lead to rapid flame propagation, sufficient to produce the high overpressures recorded. Accordingly, incidents 2, 4 and 5 may not be relevant. As the ‘lack of confinement’ cannot be quantified, the relevance of the other incidents might be superficial. More information is required. Work is in hand to identify other incidents that may be relevant. 37 Location 1 Houston, Texas, USA 2 Baytown, Texas, USA 3 Texaco, Newark, New Jersey, USA 4 Naples Harbour, Italy 5 St Herblain, France 6 Jacksonville, Florida, USA 7 Laem Chabang, Thailand Date and time April 1962 27 January 1977 7 January 1983 After 00.00 hrs 21 December 1985 7 October 1991 04:00 hours 2 January 1993 03:15 hours 2 December 1999 23:25 hours Comments – background ‘Severe leak’ from a gasoline tank. Almost windless conditions. Ignition near adjacent highway. Overfilling of a ship with gasoline. Overfilling of a tank containing unleaded gasoline. 114-379 m3 (80-265 tonnes) of gasoline released. Slight wind, ignition source 300 m away. Overfilling of a tank containing unleaded gasoline. 700 tonnes escaped. Low wind speed (2 m/s). Leak of gasoline from a transfer line into a bund. Wind 48 kPa). Presence of parked petrol tankers may have been sufficient to generate turbulence. High overpressures produced, but not quantified. High overpressure produced, but not quantified. High overpressure produced, but not quantified. Relatively low congestion in the area. Ref see over 1 1 2 3 4 5 6

References Lenoir EM and Davenport JA ‘A survey of Vapor Cloud Explosions: Second Update’ Process Safety Progress 1993 12 (1) 12-32 Bouchard JK Gasoline Storage Tank Explosion and Fire: Newark NJ January 7, 1983 National Fire Protection Association (NFPA) Summary Investigation Report (in co-operation with Federal Emergency Management Agency/United States Fire Administration and National Bureau of Standards/Center for Fire Research) Maremonti M, Russo G, Salzano E et al ‘Post-accident Analysis of Vapour Cloud Explosions In Fuel Storage Areas’ Trans IChemE 1999 77 (B) 360-365 Lechaudel JF and Mouilleau Y ‘Assessment of an accidental vapour cloud explosion. A case study: Saint Herblain, October the 7th 1991, FRANCE’ Loss Prevention and Safety Promotion in the Process Industries 1995 1 377-388 Edited from a report prepared by Lt Lorin L Mock, Training Division, Jacksonville Fire and Rescue Department ‘Covered Floater in Jacksonville: Steuart Petroleum Bulk Storage Tank Fire’ Industrial Fire Safety May/June 1993 17-32 THAIOIL Fire: A whiff of oil, then a thundering explosion Witness Accounts, Bangkok Post (FBKP) 5 December 1999 Page 1 38

Annex 6 Fire and explosion hazards from petrol Introduction 1 This annex sets out a general explanation of the fire and explosion hazards from fuels such as petrol, as currently understood. It is not limited to the circumstances of the Buncefield incident. Flashpoint 2 The physical properties of highly flammable liquids, such as petrol, are such that if they are mishandled or released they present a significant risk of fire or explosion. In this context, perhaps the most important property of petrol is its high volatility. At normal ambient temperatures, the vapour released by simple evaporation from the fuel surface can readily be ignited as it mixes with air. It is classified legally as a Highly Flammable Liquid, ie it has a flashpoint (measured in a ‘closed cup’ apparatus) below 32 oC. 3 ‘Flashpoint’ is used to define the hazard associated with liquid fuels and to help determine safe working conditions. The flashpoint is defined as the minimum temperature at which a liquid fuel produces sufficient vapour to form a flammable or ignitable mixture with air. Petrol has a flashpoint of around minus 40 oC, well below normal (ambient) temperatures, and can be ignited very easily. It is the vapour that ‘burns’, releasing heat, some of which is transferred to the surface of the fuel, thus increasing the rate of evaporation that supplies the flame with fuel vapour. Paragraph 7 of this annex provides more information about fuel fires. 4 Not all concentrations of fuel vapour in air are flammable, ie capable of being ignited by a small ignition source such as a spark or a flame. Ignition can only occur if the mixture of flammable vapour in air falls within certain concentrations, known as the lower and upper explosion (or flammability) limits. For petrol vapour, concentrations below 1.4% in air are too lean to burn, while those above 7.6% are too rich.18 At all concentrations between these two limits, known as the flammable range, the mixtures will burn, in that a flame will propagate away from the ignition source. 5 The flash point and the flammable range are determined by standard test methods. 6 Whether an ignition can give rise to a fire, an explosion or a combination of both depends on a number of factors, including the conditions prevailing at the time and the immediate surroundings of the release, but particularly on the amount of vapour present and how it is able to mix or diffuse with air. Fires 7 In a fire, the vapour evolved from spilt or released material is ignited and continues to burn above the fuel surface where the vapour mixes with the surrounding air. This type of flame is known as a diffusion flame as the fuel vapour 39 18 The concentration of petrol vapour in a partially full petrol tank is above the upper explosive limit and therefore too rich too burn.

and air mix by diffusion, and it is the type of flame associated with fires involving liquid and solid fuels. Heat transferred from the flame to the fuel provides the energy required to maintain the flow of fuel vapours that support the flame. The flames associated with a liquid pool fire will completely cover the surface and will continue to burn as long as there is fuel remaining. The flames of a petrol pool fire will extinguish when all the petrol is consumed, or if air can be excluded from the flames, or if the vapour release can be prevented or inhibited (as happens when the liquid surface is completely covered with a layer of fire-fighting foam). 8 With large hydrocarbon pool fires such as those at Buncefield, the flames are so large that mixing of fuel vapour and air is not efficient. This leads to the formation of species within the flame that cause the release of copious amounts of black smoke. The immediate precursors of the smoke are minute soot particles which radiate, producing the characteristic yellow colour associated with almost all diffusion flames. The hazards arising from such fires are due to heat transfer by radiation to neighbouring surfaces and to the hot fire products (rich in smoke and toxic gases) carried aloft by buoyancy. Pressure effects are negligible and could not cause structural damage, but heat transfer to structures immersed in the flames will cause weakening and eventual collapse. Explosions 9 For an explosion involving petrol vapour to occur, the vapour/air mixture must be within its flammable range when it encounters a potential source of ignition. A flame will propagate rapidly, spreading spherically from the ignition source throughout the entire flammable mixture. The heat released as the fuel is consumed causes the gases to expand as a result of the associated temperature rise. If confined, eg if the mixture is contained within a building, the gases cannot expand freely and the pressure will rise until parts of the confining structure (such as the windows of a building) fail and relieve the pressure. This is normally a violent event and may produce a shock wave that can cause remote damage. 10 High temperature effects from the explosion are transient, but they will ignite highly flammable liquids and can ignite lightweight combustible solids (eg tissue paper). Some can be left burning after the explosion has passed. The flame created by an explosion of petrol vapour in air is blue or very pale yellow, depending on the fuel/air mixture. It is known as a premixed flame as the fuel vapour and air are mixed before ignition occurs. The amount of smoke produced is negligible compared to that produced in a fire. 11 In general terms, overpressures are not developed if an unconfined petrol vapour/air mixture is ignited because the gases can expand freely. However, the speed at which the flame travels through the flammable mixture can vary considerably, depending on a number of different factors. If the flame speed is very high, some overpressure will be created as the expansion cannot occur rapidly enough, despite the (apparent) lack of confinement. Factors that affect the speed with which a flame will travel through a flammable mixture include: M composition of the mixture; M amount of vapour and size of the flammable cloud; M strength of the ignition source; M degree of confinement within the flammable cloud (‘partial confinement’); M turbulence created within the mixture as the flame front forces the unburnt mixture through a partially confined space. 40

12 The term ‘partial confinement’ is used to describe a situation in which obstacles lie in the path of the advancing flame. As the (as yet) unburnt mixture is forced past these obstacles, turbulence is produced. The flame will travel much more rapidly through a turbulent mixture than through a quiescent one. 13 The flame speed may vary from a few metres per second (m/s) to sonic velocities (340 m/s). Under certain conditions, supersonic velocities may be reached. If the velocity is subsonic the propagating flame is termed a deflagration. If the flame speed is greater than the speed of sound the explosion is termed a detonation. The faster a flame travels, the greater the overpressure produced. A cloud of petrol vapour in the open without any turbulence creating obstructions, such as complex pipe racks or congested plant, would on ignition produce a deflagration with a relatively slow flame speed (eg 10 m/s). Such an event would give rise to overpressures of about 0.2 psi (14 mbar). For a flame to accelerate beyond this and create higher overpressures, some or all of the factors mentioned above would have to play a part. A flame would not accelerate to detonation unless it was confined in a long narrow structure such as a pipeline. 14 As indicated above, if a flammable mixture is ignited within an item of enclosed plant or equipment, the pressure will build up until the plant either fails or a purpose-built vent or explosion relief panel opens. Storage tanks, for example, are normally designed with a weak roof joint so that in the event of an internal explosion, the explosive forces are vented upwards without the rest of the tank failing. Without any venting, and provided that the item of plant does not fail, an internal deflagration from hydrocarbon vapours could theoretically give a maximum pressure rise of approximately 130 psi (8.9 bar). Flash fires 15 A flash fire can occur if a vapour rich cloud spreads from its release point, undergoing some dilution at the interface between the cloud and the surrounding air so that a flammable mixture exists only at the interface. The cloud still has a fuel-rich core. Upon ignition the flame front will rapidly propagate through the flammable regions of the cloud and the fuel-rich region will burn more slowly as it mixes with air. The flames will eventually become established as an ordinary diffusion flame at the point of origin. Flash fires do not usually generate any appreciable overpressure effects. Overpressure 16 The pressure wave created by an explosion can have an effect on people, plant or property, in addition to the harmful effects from the burning vapour. The greatest effects from the pressure wave will be at the closest point to the explosion. Previous work to categorise the damage from blast overpressure has mainly considered the effects from conventional explosives and nuclear bomb tests, rather than the type of incident that occurred at Buncefield. Explosions are often classified according to their TNT equivalent, with an ‘efficiency factor’ used to compensate for the lower efficiency of an igniting vapour cloud in converting chemical energy into blast energy. 17 Another difference is that the blast from a conventional explosive has a high peak pressure over a short period of time, when compared to a hydrocarbon cloud which generates a lower peak pressure but of longer duration. The longer duration creates a higher impulse and therefore a different damaging effect than the same energy release from a high explosive. A further problem with using this information to analyse vapour cloud explosion events is the fact that conventional explosives have a point source, whereas a vapour cloud occupies a large volume. 41

18 The following table lists commonly accepted damage figures from blast overpressure and can be used for comparative purposes. However, care has to be taken in using this data as it does not take into account the duration of the pressure wave. Commonly accepted damage figures from blast overpressure Source: HSE Specialist Inspector Report Number 37 – Simplified calculations of blast induced injuries and damage 42 Pressure (psi) 0.02 0.10 0.15 0.30 0.40 0.5-1.0 0.75 0.9 1.0 1.0-2.0 2.0 3.0 3.0-4.0 4.0-5.0 5.0 7.0-9.0 8.0-10

10

70 Pressure (millibar) 1.4 7 10 21 28 34-70 52 63 70 70-140 140 210 210-280 280-350 350 490-630 560-700

700

4900 Damage Annoying noise, if of low frequency Breakage of small windows under strain Typical pressure for glass failure Damage to some ceilings Minor structural damage Large and small windows shattered, damage to window frames Minor damage to houses, 20-50% of tiles displaced Roof damage to oil storage tanks Houses made uninhabitable Asbestos cladding shattered, fastenings of corrugated steel panels fail, tiled roof lifted and displaced Partial collapse of walls and roofs of houses, 30% of trees blown down 90% of trees blown down, steel framed buildings distorted and pulled away from foundations Rupture of oil tanks Severe displacement of motor vehicles Wooden utility poles snapped Collapse of steel girder framed buildings Brick walls completely demolished Complete destruction of all unreinforced buildings Collapse of heavy masonry or concrete bridges

Commonly accepted figures for direct harm to people from blast overpressure 19 HSE uses the following levels of overpressure for providing land use planning advice around hazardous installations. These are based on estimates of fatalities within occupied buildings. 43 Pressure (psi) 2 1.5-2.9 10-15 12-15 30-34 Pressure (millibar) 138 103-200 690-1035 830-1035 2068-2400 Direct harm to people Threshold for eardrum rupture People knocked down or thrown to the ground 90% probability of eardrum rupture Threshold of lung haemorrhage Near 100% fatality from lung haemorrhage Pressure (psi) 8.6 2 1 Pressure (millibar) 600 140 70 Direct harm to people 50% fatalities for a normal population Threshold of fatality (1-5%) for a normal population Threshold of fatality (1-5%) for a vulnerable population

Annex 7 Product composition at Buncefield 1 Extensive sampling of the various petroleum products at the Buncefield depot has been carried out to verify the product distribution through the site from the different supply pipelines, and also to identify the composition of the released materials. The majority of the samples were taken from the Hertfordshire Oil Storage Limited site but samples were also taken from the two pipelines feeding unleaded petrol to the site, the United Kingdom Oil Pipelines Limited T/K pipeline and the FinaLine pipeline from the Lindsey refinery. 2 As a release of unleaded petrol is considered to be the initiating event for the explosion and subsequent fire, all petrol samples have been tested against the standard BS EN 228 for automotive fuels, together with a full chemical analysis by an independent accredited test house.19 Samples of other products handled on site including diesel, aviation fuel and gas oil have been subject to simple laboratory tests to confirm their identity. Product identification 3 The test results from the samples taken on site are consistent with the product type identified from the site plans or by the company as being contained or held within any particular plant or section of pipework. Many of the samples showed degradation or contamination caused by heat-damaged plant or open pipework as a result of the incident. This degradation is particularly noticeable by the loss of the more volatile components, including butane, from many of the samples. 4 The loss of volatile components from the samples has made a direct comparison of their analytical results and subsequent tracking of the different product sources through the site extremely difficult. In addition representative samples from Tank 912 after the incident are not available as this tank completely burnt out, and only fire-damaged residues consisting mainly of water could be extracted from the tank bottom. The samples of the material feeding Tank 912, taken by the operator prior to the incident and retained on site, were destroyed during the incident. Product composition 5 The evidence to date is consistent with the release of petrol from Tank 912 while it was being fed from the British Pipeline Agency Limited manifold. Petrol is a blend of many different hydrocarbons, each of which will have an impact on the vapour pressure. The British Pipeline Agency Limited manifold feeding Tank 912 was being supplied by a parcel of unleaded petrol from the British Petroleum PLC oil refinery at Coryton, Essex. That in turn was made up from the feed from four separate tanks. No sample of the parcel is available as the part-batches from the feeder tanks are not blended and tested as a composite batch before being pumped from site. British Petroleum PLC has provided the Conformity Certificates for the individual feeder tanks showing their analysis against the British Standard. The British Standard is a performance specification and only details specific limits for 44 19 BS EN 228: 2004 Automotive fuels. Unleaded petrol. Requirements and test methods. Available online at www.bsonline.bsi-global.com.

the chemicals lead and benzene. By way of example, the standard does not specifically limit the content of butane, which comprises a mixture of butanes and butenes, and therefore the presence and levels of these individual components are not routinely determined. The total butane content, however, will affect the vapour pressure and this is specified in the standard depending on whether the product is marketed as winter or summer grade. For winter grade petrol the vapour pressure limits are defined as 70-100 kPa and for summer they are reduced to 45-70 kPa. 6 The Conformity Certificates show that the vapour pressure for the four part- batches were all at or very close to 100 kPa. This was corroborated by evidence obtained from the British Pipeline Agency Limited site after the incident. This corresponded to a total butane content of 10.0%. By contrast, other samples of petrol taken from the site after the incident and which had been degraded by exposure to the fire were found to have lower vapour pressures and correspondingly lower butane levels. Therefore the product released on site was at the top end of the winter grade limit for vapour pressure. A reasonable estimate of the butane content of the released material is 10% by weight. 45

Annex 8 Regulatory framework for high hazard sites 1 The regulatory framework for sites such as Buncefield, which present potential major accident hazards, comprises requirements imposed on the site operators under both health and safety and environmental legislation, complemented by the requirements of planning law. In particular, the Control of Major Accident Hazards Regulations 1999 (COMAH) apply. Health and safety law 2 Operators in the process industries are subject to the requirements of the Health and Safety at Work etc Act 1974 (the HSW Act) and the Management of Health and Safety at Work Regulations 1999 which require, respectively, safety policies and risk assessments covering the whole range of health and safety risks. Control of Major Accident Hazards Regulations 1999 (COMAH) 3 COMAH’s main aim is to prevent and mitigate the effects of those major accidents involving dangerous substances, such as chlorine, liquefied petroleum gas and explosives which can cause serious damage/harm to people and/or the environment. The COMAH Regulations treat risks to the environment as seriously as those to people. They apply where threshold quantities of dangerous substances identified in the Regulations are kept or used. There are two thresholds, known as ‘lower-tier’ and ‘top-tier’. The requirements of COMAH are fully explained in The requirements of COMAH are fully explained in A guide to the Control of Major Accident Hazards Regulations 1999 (COMAH). Guidance on Regulations L111 HSE Books 1999 ISBN 0 7176 1604 5. 4 The COMAH Regulations are enforced by a joint Competent Authority comprising HSE and the Environment Agency in England and Wales, and HSE and the Scottish Environment Protection Agency (SEPA) in Scotland. Operators will generally receive a single response from the Competent Authority on all matters to do with COMAH. The Competent Authority operates to a Memorandum of Understanding, which sets out arrangements for joint working. 5 The COMAH Regulations require operators of top-tier sites to submit written safety reports to the Competent Authority with the purpose, among others, of demonstrating that major accident hazards have been identified and that the necessary measures have been taken both to prevent such accidents and to limit any consequences. Operators of top-tier sites must also prepare adequate emergency plans to deal with the on-site consequences of possible major accidents, and to assist with off-site mitigation. Local authorities for areas containing top-tier sites must prepare adequate emergency plans to deal with the off-site consequences of possible major accidents, based on information supplied by site operators. 6 The COMAH Regulations place duties on the Competent Authority to have in place a system of inspections for establishments subject to the Regulations, and to prohibit the operation of an establishment if there is evidence that measures taken for prevention and mitigation of major accidents are seriously deficient. The Competent Authority also has to examine safety reports and inform operators about the conclusions of its examinations within a reasonable time period. 46

7 The inspection plan for a particular establishment is drawn up by inspectors from the Competent Authority based on previous interventions at the site and on information gained from the assessment of the safety report. The inspection programme requires input from a range of inspectors with specialist knowledge and identifies and prioritises issues. The focus of the programme is to ensure that the key risk control measures for preventing and mitigating major hazards are maintained. 8 The adequacy of this process and its application at Buncefield by HSE and Environment Agency inspectors is subject to a review under term of reference 3. Environmental legislation 9 Some of the establishments regulated under the COMAH Regulations are also regulated by the Environment Agency and SEPA (the Agencies) under the Pollution Prevention and Control Act 1999 (PPC) or Part I of the Environmental Protection Act 1990 (EPA 90). The regime under EPA 90 is gradually being replaced by the PPC regime and will be fully replaced by 2007. 10 While the purpose of the COMAH Regulations (the prevention of major accidents) differs from that of PPC, the means to achieve them are almost identical. They require industry to have good management systems to control risk. PPC includes a specific duty to prevent and mitigate accidents to the environment which is complementary to the main COMAH duty. The Agencies manage this overlap between their different regimes following the principle that accident prevention work on COMAH sites is generally more significant because of the greater risks. Supporting guidance and standards 11 The legal requirements are supported by a large body of guidance and standards that set out recognised good practice in the control of major accident hazards. This includes national and international standards, industry guidance and guidance published by the Competent Authority. Examples of the latter are Reducing error and influencing behaviour HSG48 (Second edition) HSE Books 1999 ISBN 0 7176 2452 8 and Successful health and safety management HSG65 (Second edition) HSE Books 1997 ISBN 0 7176 1276 7. Land use planning 12 The land use planning aspects of the Seveso II Directive are given effect in the UK by the Planning (Hazardous Substances) Regulations 1992, as amended in

  1. Under these Regulations the presence of hazardous chemicals above specified

thresholds requires consent from the hazardous substances authority, usually the local planning authority. HSE is a statutory consultee on such occasions. The role of HSE is to consider the hazards and risks which would be presented by the hazardous substances to people in the vicinity, and on the basis of this advise the hazardous substances authority whether or not consent should be granted. HSE will also supply a consultation distance around the site. Any future developments in these zones require HSE to be consulted. 13 The aim of health and safety advice relating to land use planning is to mitigate the effects of a major accident on the population in the vicinity of hazardous installations, by following a consistent and systematic approach in providing advice on applications for planning permission around such sites. 14 Historically, HSE has based its land use planning advice on the presumption that site operators are in full compliance with the HSW Act. Section 2 of the Act places a duty on an employer to ensure, so far as is reasonably practicable, the 47

health and safety of his employees. There is a corresponding duty in section 3 to ensure, so far as is reasonably practicable, that others (including the public) are not exposed to risks to their health and safety. These duties are goal-setting and operators are expected to determine the most appropriate means to comply with them, without the need for detailed approval from HSE. 15 Under the General Development Procedure Order 1995, both HSE and the Environment Agency are statutory consultees for: M the development of a new major accident hazard site; or M developments on an existing site which could have significant repercussions on major accident hazards; or M other developments in the vicinity of existing establishments, where the siting or development is such as to increase the risk or consequences of a major accident. 48

Annex 9 Regulation of perfluorooctane sulphonates (PFOS) 1 Perfluorochemicals are a family of chemicals used in products designed to repel dirt, grease and water, including kitchenware, carpet treatments, food wrappers, sprays for leather and other clothing, paints and cleaning products. 2 A group of these substances, perfluorooctane sulphonates (collectively identified as PFOS), has been shown to be hazardous (persistent, bioaccumulative and toxic). PFOS has been used in a diverse range of applications, from fire- fighting foam additives to use as a mist suppressant in chromium plating. PFOS was also used in common household anti-soil treatments often referred to by the trade name ‘Scotchgard’ (a trademark of 3M PLC). 3 The UK Committee on Toxicity of Chemicals in Food, Consumer Products and the Environment (COT), an independent scientific committee that provides advice to the Food Standards Agency, the Department of Health and other Government Departments and Agencies on matters concerning the toxicity of chemicals - is currently evaluating PFOS, most recently in May 2006.20 4 On the basis of the preliminary COT discussions, the Health Protection Agency advised the Drinking Water Inspectorate in March 2006 that, ‘It appears unlikely that a lifetime’s consumption of drinking water containing concentrations up to three microgrammes (of PFOS) per litre would harm human health’ and that ‘drinking-water concentrations of PFOS should not exceed three microgrammes per litre.’ The Health Protection Agency will review its advice when COT has finalised its assessment of PFOS. 5 In the light of current Health Protection Agency advice, the Drinking Water Inspectorate’s view (29 March 2006) is that to safeguard human health, PFOS should not be present in drinking water supplies above three microgrammes/litre (µg/l). 6 PFOS does not appear to undergo any degradation in the natural environment. Due to this extreme stability it has now become widespread both in man and the environment. The biological persistence of PFOS in living organisms is high, with an estimated elimination half-life for humans of the order of four to eight years. 7 These concerns resulted in the principal manufacturer of PFOS (3M) announcing a voluntary phase-out of PFOS manufacture from 2001 onwards. PFOS, however, continues to be produced by some companies and is used in some industrial processes, for example semiconductor production and chromium plating. PFOS was used as an ingredient in some AFFF Class B fire-fighting foam concentrates until a few years ago. These concentrates have a shelf life of at least ten years and remaining stocks will therefore continue to be available for use on oil fires. 8 DEFRA consulted on a national action to restrict the use of PFOS and substances that may degrade to PFOS in October 2004. This included proposals to phase out the use of PFOS in fire-fighting foams. In December 2005, the European Commission issued a proposal for a Directive restricting the marketing and use of PFOS. In this draft Directive PFOS used in fire-fighting foams as well as 49 20 The COT minutes and background working paper are available from www.food.gov.uk/science/ouradvisors/toxicity/cotmeets/cot2006/334454.

photolithography, photographic coats, chromium plating and hydraulic fluids for aviation would be allowed to continue. 9 The Environment Agency has conducted a national environmental risk assessment of PFOS.21 This concluded that there was an environmental risk for all PFOS uses. For now, the drive to minimise PFOS in the environment and drinking water has to be reconciled with its continued use in some industrial sectors. 10 The risk reduction strategy proposed by DEFRA would have phased out PFOS use in chrome plating two years after the legislation came into force, and in fire- fighting foam and most other applications five years after the legislation came into force. The draft EU Directive (December 2005) on PFOS does not phase out the use of PFOS in these applications. The EU has now prohibited the UK from imposing unilateral restrictions on the use of PFOS and any action to restrict the use of PFOS will now proceed at an EU level. The Environment Agency’s approach 11 The Environment Agency’s policy aim is to progressively reduce and ultimately phase out the discharge of PFOS to controlled waters. However, the Environment Agency does not regulate all users and, due to its widespread presence, it is not feasible to prevent all discharges of PFOS into controlled waters. When calculating acceptable concentrations of PFOS in consented effluent discharges to surface water the Environment Agency will aim to prevent detectable emissions where possible. As PFOS is a List I substance under the Groundwater Directive, the Environment Agency cannot authorise its disposal to groundwater. 50 21 Brooke D, Footitt A and Nwaogu TA Environmental risk evaluation report: perfluorooctane sulphonate (PFOS) Research Contractor: Building Research Establishment Ltd. Risk and Policy Analysts Ltd.

Annex 10 Legal considerations Prosecution decision making 1 The Board is aware that the process of making enforcement decisions is complex. Every duty holder and situation is unique. The prosecution decision can only be considered once the criminal investigation is fully complete, ie all reasonable lines of enquiry have been followed (in line with the Code of Practice issued pursuant to the Criminal Procedure and Investigations Act 1996). In the case of HSE, the HSC Enforcement Policy Statement sets out the approach to be followed, in accordance with the aims of the Government’s ‘Principles of Good Enforcement’ and requires HSE to apply the Code for Crown Prosecutors (The Code). 2 The Environment Agency has its own Enforcement and Prosecution Policy, which also relies on those principles and commits the Agency to take account of the Code. Each case is unique and will be considered on its own merits. Any prosecution decision requires a careful balancing of individual factors present in that particular case and will be taken by a lawyer who is independent of the Investigation. 3 The Code states that the decision-maker (prosecutor) must be fair, independent and objective. It is their duty to review cases and to ensure that the law is properly applied, that all relevant evidence is put before the court and that obligations of disclosure are complied with. The prosecutor will also ensure that the investigators have identified any material that might undermine the prosecution case or assist the defence, and that they have acted in compliance with the Human Rights Act

  1. The more complex the circumstances of a case and/or the technical evidence,

the longer this process may take. Evidential stage 4 There is a strict order in which the prosecutor must apply the two stages which form the Full Code Test under the Code. The prosecutor must first consider the evidential stage. If there is not the required level of evidence then no prosecution can go ahead, no matter how important the case or how strong the public interest is in favour of prosecution. The prosecutor must be satisfied that the evidence is admissible to meet the evidential test. 5 To pass the evidential stage the Approval Officer must be satisfied that there is enough evidence to form ‘a realistic prospect of conviction’ against each defendant on each charge. This is a different test to the one that magistrates or juries have to apply. This is not simply a case of percentages. The evidential stage is met if there is ‘sufficient evidence to ensure that a jury or bench of magistrates, with a correct understanding of the law, is more likely than not to convict the defendant of the alleged charge.’ 51

6 The prosecutor’s considerations will include: M Is there any evidence which might support or detract from the reliability of an admission? M What explanation has the suspect given? M Is the character of any of the witnesses likely to weaken their evidence? M Does the witness have a motive that might influence his or her evidence? M Is there any concern over the accuracy or credibility of a witness? If so, what is the basis for that concern? Public interest stage 7 If the case meets the standard required by the evidential stage, only then can the prosecutor consider whether a prosecution is required in the public interest. The prosecutor has to balance the factors for and against prosecution very carefully. The decision must not be affected by improper or undue pressure from any source. 8 For HSE, the HSC Enforcement Policy Statement sets out the common health and safety public interest factors, which, if one or more is present, HSC expects should lead to a prosecution, eg where: M death was a result of the breach of legislation; M the gravity of an alleged offence, taken together with the seriousness of any actual or potential harm, or the general record and approach of the offender, warrants it; M there has been a reckless disregard for health and safety requirements, repeated breaches which give rise to significant risk, or persistent and significant poor compliance; M work has been carried out in serious non-compliance with an appropriate licence or safety case; M a duty holder’s standard of managing health and safety is found to be far below what is required by health and safety law and to be giving rise to significant risk; M there has been a failure to comply with an improvement or prohibition notice, or there has been a repetition of a breach that was subject to a formal caution; M false information has been supplied wilfully, or there has been an intent to deceive, in relation to a matter which gives rise to significant risk; M inspectors have been intentionally obstructed in the lawful course of their duties. 9 The list is not exhaustive. The Enforcement Policy Statement acknowledges that there may be occasions where these factors may be present but that the public interest does not require a prosecution. 52

10 The Environment Agency will consider the environmental effect of the alleged offence, the foreseeability of the offence or the circumstances leading to it, the intent of the offender, any history of offending, the attitude of the offender, whether a prosecution is required in order to ensure deterrence, and the personal circumstances of the offender. Again the list is not exhaustive. 11 There is a presumption that the Environment Agency will prosecute where one or more of the following are present: M Incidents or breaches that have significant consequences for the environment, or which have the potential for such consequences. M Operations have been carried out without a licence. M There have been excessive or persistent breaches of regulatory requirements. M There has been a failure to comply or to comply adequately with formal remedial requirements. M There has been reckless disregard for management or quality standards. M There has been a failure to supply information without reasonable excuse, or knowingly or recklessly supplying false or misleading information. M Agency staff have been obstructed. M There has been an attempt to impersonate Agency staff. 12 The Code for Crown Prosecutors also lists other relevant factors for and against prosecution, which again are not exhaustive. The prosecutor balances the factors for and against prosecution. Views of the victim(s) (part of the public interest stage) 13 The prosecutor will also take into account the consequences for the victim of the decision to prosecute or not to prosecute, and any views expressed by the victim or the bereaved. While the prosecutor will ‘take into account’ their views, neither enforcement authority is bound to follow those views when reaching the final decision on enforcement. 53

Glossary ambient temperature The temperature of the surrounding air aquifer A water-bearing stratum of porous rock, gravel or sand bar and millibar Although a bar is not a measure in the International System of Units (SI), it is one of the units used in meteorology when describing atmospheric pressure. The SI unit for measuring pressure is the pascal (Pa). A millibar is equal to 1/1000 of a bar, or 100 pascals (a hectopascal) bioaccumulative Literally, to accumulate in a biological system. It is commonly taken to measure the uptake over time of toxic substances that can stay in a biological system borehole A cylindrical shaft drilled into the ground, often for geological exploration or extraction of resources Bronze command The working name for the operational command level during a Major Incident bund An enclosure designed to contain fluids should they escape from the tank or vessel inside the bund, as well as any additional materials added to the container area such as fire-fighting water and foam, etc COMAH See Control of Major Accident Hazards Regulations 1999 COMAH sites A site to which the Control of Major Accident Hazards Regulations 1999 apply Competent Authority The Control of Major Accident Hazards Regulations (COMAH) are enforced by a joint Competent Authority comprising the Health and Safety Executive (HSE) and the Environment Agency in England and Wales, and HSE and the Scottish Environment Protection Agency in Scotland Control of Major Accident Hazards Regulations 1999 The main aim of these Regulations is to prevent and mitigate the effects of those major accidents involving dangerous substances, such as chlorine, liquefied petroleum gas, and explosives which can cause serious damage/harm to people and/or the environment. The Regulations treat risks to the environment as seriously as those to people. They apply where threshold quantities of dangerous substances identified in the Regulations are kept or used. See also Seveso II duty holder In the context of this report, any person or organisation holding a legal duty – in particular those placed by the HSW Act, the Management Regulations, and the COMAH Regulations Environment Agency The Environment Agency is the lead regulator in England and Wales with responsibility for protecting and enhancing the environment. It was set up by the Environment Act 1995 and is a non-departmental public body, largely sponsored by the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs and the National Assembly for Wales 54

fire-water Water stored for use during, and used during, fire-fighting operations foam In the context of this report, a foam used during operations to extinguish hydrocarbon fires forthwith action The Investigation terms of reference require the Investigation team and Board to ‘identify and transmit without delay to duty holders and other appropriate recipients any information requiring immediate action to further safety and/or environmental protection in relation to storage and distribution of hydrocarbon fuels.’ This is referred to as ‘forthwith’ action for both the Investigation, the Competent Authority, and duty holders Gold command The working name for the strategic command centre during a Major Incident - also known as the Strategic Co-ordinating Group groundwater All water below the water-table, as opposed to ‘ground waters’, which include groundwater but also sub-surface water above the water-table. The term ‘ground water’, where used in the previous progress reports, should normally have read ‘groundwater’ hazard Anything with the potential to cause harm Health and Safety Commission The Health and Safety Commission is a statutory body, established under the Health and Safety at Work etc Act 1974, responsible for health and safety regulation in Great Britain Health and Safety Executive The Health and Safety Executive is a statutory body, established under the Health and Safety at Work etc Act 1974. It is an enforcing authority working in support of HSC. Local authorities are also enforcing authorities under the Health and Safety at Work etc Act 1974 HSC See Health and Safety Commission HSE See Health and Safety Executive hydrocarbon An organic chemical compound of hydrogen and carbon. There are a wide variety of hydrocarbons such as crude oil (basically a complex mixture of hydrocarbons), methane, propane, butane etc. They are often used as fuels Improvement Notice Improvement Notices are one of a range of means which enforcing authorities use to achieve the broad aim of dealing with serious risks, securing compliance with health and safety law and preventing harm. An Improvement Notice allows time for the recipient to comply kiloPascal Pascals (Pa) are the unit of pressure in the International System of Units (SI). A kiloPascal (kPa) is equal to 1000 Pa. Although bar are not units within SI, they are sometimes used as units to measure atmospheric pressure. 1 kPa = 10 bar. See also bar and millibar kPa See kiloPascal lower-tier See tier 55

Major Accident To The Environment DEFRA has established threshold criteria defining a ‘Major Accident To The Environment’ (MATTE), based on Schedule 7 (part 1) of the Control of Major Accident Hazards Regulations 1999. The Environment Agency, using these criteria, has determined that the Buncefield incident is a MATTE, and the Competent Authority has recently reported this to the European Commission MATTE See Major Accident To The Environment millibar See bar and millibar overpressure For a pressure pulse (or blast wave), the pressure developed above atmospheric pressure perfluorooctane sulphonates A group of chemicals, collectively identified as PFOS, which have been shown to be hazardous (persistent, bioaccumulative and toxic). PFOS chemicals have been used in a diverse range of applications, including as an additive to aid the spreading properties of fire-fighting foam perfluorosurfactant In the context of the Buncefield incident, a surfactant is a chemical added to fire-fighting foam which allows the foam to form a thin sealing film over the burning fuel. Perfluorosurfactants are a type of surfactant PFOS See perfluorooctane sulphonates pool fire A fire over a pool of fuel and/or water or other liquids primary containment The tanks, pipes and vessels that normally hold liquids, and the devices fitted to them to allow them to be safely operated pumphouse In the context of this report, the structure enclosing the pumping equipment used to move water around the Buncefield site prior to the incident. It principally stored water intended for fire-fighting operations risk The likelihood that a hazard will cause a specified harm to someone or something run off Uncontained liquid, either deposited on site as rain, or in the context of the Buncefield incident, fuel and/or fire-water not contained as part of the operation to control the incident Safety Alert Where the Competent Authority considers that an issue poses significant risk, it can choose to issue a Safety Alert to operators of COMAH sites informing them of the issue and possibly requiring them to undertake certain activity SCG See Strategic Co-ordinating Group Scottish Environment Protection Agency The public body which is responsible for the protection of the environment in Scotland secondary containment Enclosed areas around storage vessels (often called bunds), created usually by concrete or earth walls. Their purpose is to hold any escaping liquids and any water or chemicals used in fire-fighting SEPA See Scottish Environment Protection Agency 56

Seveso II In 1976, a major accident occurred in Seveso, Italy, where the accidental production and release of a dioxin as an unwanted by-product from a runaway chemical reaction led to widespread contamination. A number of such incidents, and the recognition of the differing standards of controls over industrial activities within the European Community, led the European Commission to propose a Directive on the control of major industrial accident hazards. The Directive on the Major Accident Hazards of Certain Industrial Activities (82/501/EEC) was adopted on 24 June 1982, and is generally known as the Seveso Directive. Following a complete review of the Directive by the European Commission a new one, now known as Seveso II, came into force on 3 February 1997 and was implemented in Great Britain on 1 April 1999 by the Control of Major Accident Hazards Regulations 1999, except for land use planning requirements, which were implemented by changes to planning legislation Silver command The working name for the tactical command centre during a Major Incident Strategic Co-ordinating Group Representation of all agencies deployed to resolve the Buncefield incident was established through a meeting process known as the Strategic Co-ordinating Group, also known as Gold Command surface water Water that sits or flows above land, including lakes, seas, rivers and streams tank farm A facility where hazardous substances, very often petroleum products, are stored in tanks tertiary containment The site surface and associated drainage, boundary walls, roads, containment kerbs and any features such as road humps that can provide some retention of liquids. Proper design of drainage systems will limit loss of product out of the site and prevent lost product permeating into the ground with the potential risk that it can migrate to groundwater, or contaminate surface waters and land tier The Control of Major Accident Hazards Regulations 1999 apply where threshold quantities of dangerous substances identified in the Regulations are kept or used. There are two thresholds, known as ‘lower-tier’ and ‘top-tier’, and COMAH sites fall into one or other of these topography The physical configuration of the surface of the land, including its elevation, slope, and orientation top-tier See tier ultimate high-level switch Part of the system to prevent overfilling of the tank, the ultimate high-level switch is an independent mechanism which should be triggered when the ‘ultimate high level’ (ie the specified maximum capacity) is reached in a tank to which it is fitted, causing an alarm to sound and should shut downshutting down the supply of fuel to the tank vapour pressure A measure of the tendency of a material to form a vapour. The higher the vapour pressure, the higher the potential vapour concentration volatility The readiness of a substance to evaporate wind girder Structural stiffening ring attached to the tank side wall 57

Further information Useful links Buncefield Major Incident Investigation Marlowe Room, Rose Court 2 Southwark Bridge London, SE1 9HS Tel: 020 7717 6909 Fax: 020 7717 6082 E-mail: buncefield.inforequest@hse.gsi.gov.uk Web: www.buncefieldinvestigation.gov.uk Community/Business support Dacorum Business Contact Centre Tel: 01442 867 805 Business Link Helpline Tel: 01727 813 813 Hertfordshire Chamber of Commerce Tel: 01727 813 680 Dacorum Community Trust Mayor’s Fund To apply, call the freephone helpline on 0800 131 3351. Lines are open 9.30 am-4.30 pm, Monday to Friday Dacorum Borough Council Tel: 01442 228 000 Web: www.dacorum.gov.uk Hemel Hempstead Citizens Advice Bureau 19 Hillfield Road, Hemel Hempstead HP2 4AA Tel: 01442 213368 Local authorities and emergency services Dacorum Borough Council Tel: 01442 228 000 Web: www.dacorum.gov.uk (Dacorum Borough Council Digest newsletter, available monthly Dacorum Borough Council Buncefield Update Newsletter) St Albans District Council Tel: 01727 866 100 Web: www.stalbans.gov.uk Hertfordshire County Council Tel: 01483 737 555 Web: www.hertsdirect.org 58

Hertfordshire Fire and Rescue Service Web: www.hertsdirect.org/yrccouncil/hcc/fire/buncefield Hertfordshire Constabulary Web: www.herts.police.uk/news/buncefield/main.htm Hertfordshire Chamber of Commerce Tel: 01727 813 680 Web: www.hertschamber.com Government links Department for Communities and Local Government Fire and Resilience Directorate Web: www.communities.gov.uk Government Office for the East of England Web: www.go-east.gov.uk Environment Agency Web: www.environment-agency.gov.uk Department of Trade and Industry Oil and Gas Directorate Web: www.og.dti.gov.uk Health and Safety Executive Hazardous Installations Directorate Web: www.hse.gov.uk/hid Control of Major Accident Hazards Web: www.hse.gov.uk/comah Department for the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Web: www.defra.gov.uk Health Protection Agency Web: www.hpa.org.uk Food Standards Agency Web: www.food.gov.uk Drinking Water Inspectorate Web: www.dwi.gov.uk Industry links United Kingdom Petroleum Industry Association (UKPIA) Tel: 020 7240 0289 Web: www.ukpia.com Chemical Industries Association Tel: 020 7834 3399 Web: www.cia.org.uk Three Valleys Water Tel: 0845 782 3333 Web: www.3valleys.co.uk 59

Investigation reports Buncefield Major Incident Investigation: M Progress Report, published 21 February 2006 M Second Progress Report, published 11 April 2006 M Third Progress Report, published 9 May 2006 Available from www.buncefieldinvestigation.gov.uk DEFRA: Initial review of Air Quality aspects of the Buncefield Oil Depot Explosion www.defra.gov.uk/environment/airquality/buncefield/buncefield-report.pdf Hertfordshire Fire and Rescue Service’s Report into the ‘Fire Response’ – to be published in November 2006 Angus Fire, Buncefield Oil Terminal Incident December 2005: Review of part played by Angus Fire and lessons learned www.angusfire.co.uk Other related reports/information East of England Development Agency – report by SQW, Economic Developments Consultants on: The Buncefield Oil Depot Incident: Economic and Business Confidence Impact Study, June 2006 www.eeda.org.uk Swiss Fire Service: Quick Look Report – Buncefield Fire 11 December 2005 Contract research reports for HSE M W.S. Atkins Science and Technology: Derivation of fatality probability functions for occupants of buildings subject to blast loads Phases 1, 2, & 3 - 147/1997 and Phase 4 - 151/1997 M Biomedical Sciences Chemical and Biological Defence Sector Defence Evaluation and Research Agency: Review of blast injury data and models 192/1998 Available from: www.hsebooks.com Government Advisory Bodies M Committee on mutagenicity of chemicals in food, consumer products and the environment (COM) M Committee on carcinogenicity of chemicals in food, consumer products and the environment (COC) M Committee on toxicity of chemicals in food, consumer products and the environment (COT) www.advisorybodies.doh.gov.uk/coc/ 60

HSE priced and free publications are available by mail order from HSE Books, PO Box 1999, Sudbury, Suffolk CO10 2WA Tel: 01787 881165 Fax: 01787 313995 Website: www.hsebooks.co.uk (HSE priced publications are also available from bookshops and free leaflets can be downloaded from HSE’s website: www.hse.gov.uk.) For information about health and safety ring HSE's Infoline Tel: 0845 345 0055 Fax: 0845 408 9566 Textphone: 0845 408 9577 e-mail: hse.infoline@natbrit.com or write to HSE Information Services, Caerphilly Business Park, Caerphilly CF83 3GG. British Standards are available from BSI Customer Services, 389 Chiswick High Road, London W4 4AL Tel: 020 8996 9001 Fax: 020 8996 7001 e-mail: cservices@bsi-global.com Website: www.bsi-global.com © Crown copyright This publication may be freely reproduced, except for advertising, endorsement or commercial purposes. First published 07/06. Please acknowledge the source as HSE. 07/06 C10 Printed and published by the Health and Safety Executive 61

FD06271 | 2005_UK_2005_Buncefield_Explosion_Second_Progress_Report.pdf

分类:06_境外及港澳台调查报告 | 年份:2005 | 地域: | 严重程度: | 场所: | 起火原因: | 来源格式:pdf

The Buncefield Investigation Second progress report

Contents Foreword 3 Part 1 Progress with the primary investigation 4 1.1 Loss of containment of fuel and contaminants 4 Background 4 Loss of fuel from vessel(s) 4 Loss of fuel and contaminants from bunds 7 Loss of contaminants from the site 9 1.2 Monitoring of environmental impact 12 Air quality 12 Surface water 12 Ground water 14 Drinking water 16 Land investigations 16 Disposal of fire water 17 1.3 Progress with other aspects of the major investigation 18 Acting on Regulatory advice 18 Working with others and communities 18 Report to the European Commission 18 Part 2 Current business and community issues 19 Part 3 Further work 20 3.1 Explosion and fire 20 3.2 Environmental impact 20 Annexes 1 Further information 21 2 Investigation terms of reference 23 3 Site maps 24 Glossary 25 The Buncefield Investigation: Second progress report 2

Foreword I present a second progress report that focuses mainly on the environmental impact on land, surface water and ground water of the fuel and fire water that escaped from the Buncefield site. It is important, in my view, that the vital work being done by the Environment Agency and others is brought to public attention. My report also contains for completeness a brief update on progress with the investigation into how fuel escaped, thereby breaching the primary containment barriers. It reveals that cloning of a number of important computer records has been successful and that vapour formation modelling is underway. Although briefly stated, this is important new information – it was quite possible that these disks would be too badly damaged for the information on them to be recovered. The report is, as I say, mainly a description of loss of containment of fuel and fire water from bunds (secondary containment) and from the site itself (tertiary containment). There are important early observations that sealant used in some bund walls was not capable of withstanding fires and/or the hydraulic pressure in bunds or adjacent tanks. Bund performance during the incident forms an important but as yet inconclusive aspect of the investigation. There was extensive loss of containment at the site boundaries and fuel and fire water escaped from the site to the surrounding lands. The report describes the monitoring work by the Environment Agency and others to identify whether or not short and long-term pollution of watercourses and ground waters has or is likely to occur, particularly potential contamination of the important chalk aquifer that underlies Buncefield. The pathways for pollutants are still being investigated. It is important to emphasise that if contamination of the aquifer occurs from the Buncefield incident, it could take months or years to materialise. However, we have been reassured by Three Valleys Water Company and the Drinking Water Inspectorate that drinking water is of a high quality and has not been affected by this incident. A further report to the Board on the means of escape of the fuel and the formation of flammable vapours is suggested as possible within a month of this report, provided we are able to continue the good rate of progress that the investigation is making. Taf Powell Buncefield Investigation Manager and Member of Buncefield Major Incident Investigation Board The Buncefield Investigation: Second progress report 3

Part 1 Progress with the primary investigation 1.1 Loss of containment of fuel and contaminants Background 1 Fuel depots such as Buncefield are strategic centres for the distribution of liquid fuels such as diesel, unleaded petrol and aviation fuel. Fuel comes to depots via pipelines from refineries and is stored according to fuel type before being distributed to other places (typically points of use, such as petrol stations and airports) either by road tanker, by rail, or by dedicated pipeline. 2 Fuel depots are designed to keep fuel within the vessels and pipework that store and distribute them. Should fuel escape, there needs to be provision for ensuring that fuels, and the contaminants associated with any emergency response to a fuel escape or fire, are prevented from running off site so as to protect the surrounding environment. The provisions for keeping escaped fuel and other contaminants within the site (referred to as containment) is described in the safety report that operators of large sites such as Buncefield must submit to the Environment Agency (EA) and the Health and Safety Executive (HSE) (the ‘Competent Authority’). 3 There are typically three levels of containment. Primary containment relates to the equipment and facilities that have direct contact with the products (eg tanks and pipework), and their operation and management. 4 Secondary containment relates to both the control of the product in the primary containment facilities (eg the provision of tank high-level alarms to prevent loss through overfilling) and any contingency provisions for the failure of the primary containment. The most important of these provisions are bunds, which are enclosures capable of holding liquids that may escape from the vessels and pipes within the bund wall. 5 There are a number of types of bunds across the Buncefield Depot, ranging from earth banks with earth bases to concrete walls with concrete bases. In the area most affected by the fire, the bunds were predominantly of concrete construction, although some had concrete walls and clay floors. 6 Tertiary containment relates to the site surface and associated drainage, boundary walls, roads, kerbs and any features such as road humps that can provide some retention of liquids. Proper design of drainage systems will limit loss of product out of the site and prevent lost product permeating into the ground with the potential risk that it can migrate to ground water, or contaminate surface waters and land. 7 At Buncefield, the site slopes downwards in a north-easterly direction towards Cherry Tree Lane, a public road running between the main site and the British Pipeline Agency Ltd (BPA) tank 12, at the north of the depot. There is a general slope from west to east. Cherry Tree Lane has a depression about half way along its length near to the to BPA’s tank 12 area, before sloping away to the east and the junction of Green Lane and Hogg End Lane. Loss of fuel from vessel(s) 8 The first progress report1 noted that the explosions and fires on 11 December 2005 were the result of a massive escape of fuel in the vicinity of bund A on the Hertfordshire Oil Storage Ltd (HOSL) West part of the site. This escaped fuel formed The Buncefield Investigation: Second progress report 4 1 www.buncefieldinvestigation.gov.uk

The Buncefield Investigation: Second progress report 5 SHELL BP HOSL West BPA HOSL East N Cherry Tree Lane

C her ry Tre e Lane

Cherry Tree Lane

Buncefiel d Lane

Bun cefield Lane Green Lane

Green Lane

Boundary Way HOSL lagoon Pump house HOSL West Bund A BPA Tank 12 BPA lagoon Effluent plant BP oil HOSL West Bund B HOSL West Bund C Figure 1 Site map showing bunds a flammable mixture with the air. Little was known about how primary containment was lost or how the escaping fuel formed into a flammable mixture. (Figure 1 shows a schematic of the bunds.) 9 Progress has been made in determining the main source of escaped fuel. CCTV recordings recovered from the south side of the BPA site show the visible mist, associated with the loss of containment of the fuel, drifting eastwards onto the site from the adjacent HOSL West site shortly before the first explosion. This is consistent with the evidence obtained from other CCTV coverage and detailed in

the first progress report, and appears to confirm that the initial escape of fuel was from the HOSL West site. CCTV records from the Northgate building provide further confirmation of the spread of the flammable cloud away from the HOSL West site. This information also supports the initial forensic conclusions about the extent of the flammable cloud in this vicinity. 10 A significant amount of information has now been obtained from the extensive electronic equipment used to control and monitor the operations on site. Much of the equipment was housed in damaged buildings and great care had to be taken to ensure its safe removal and subsequent restoration and examination. This has revealed important information on key parameters such as fuel levels in tanks, flow rates and valve positions. Work is continuing to extract this information and to examine it in detail so as to conclude with confidence how the fuel escaped. It is hoped this work will be completed within five weeks of this report. 11 A key aspect of the investigation is to determine how the escaping fuel vaporised so rapidly. Work has been commissioned from the Health and Safety Laboratory (HSL) to assist with this. The work is being carried out as quickly as possible to enable feedback to the investigation team within the next month. In particular, priority is being given to the composition of the fuel and to modelling how the escaping fuel could have been vapourised under the prevailing weather conditions. This work should provide a link between the possible release events indicated by the control and instrumentation records and the clear evidence of mist formation coming from witness statements and CCTV records. The Buncefield Investigation: Second progress report 6 N A B 0 A B 100 200 300 400 500 532 100 134 m 132 m 130 m 128 m 126 m 124 m 0 200 300 400 500 532m B A Bu ncefiel d Lane

Cherry Tree Lane Cherry Tree Lane

Cherr

y Tre e Lane Figure 2 Schematic of topography at Cherry Tree Lane Ground profile along Cherry Tree Lane (West to East)

12 In parallel with the work on vapour cloud formation, HSL is helping to determine the exact nature and composition of the flammable mixture and to determine the precise mechanism for generating such a violent explosion within an apparently unconfined vapour cloud. This work is supported by analysing other incidents from around the world and assimilating technical information from them. 13 Good progress on damage assessment, both on and off site, has given added momentum to the work to explain the high level of blast damage caused by the explosion. 14 A systematic fuel sampling programme is being carried out to confirm the composition of products being stored and transferred on site in tanks or pipes. This programme has had to be fitted into the remediation work being carried out on site by the operators, under the control of two Prohibition Notices issued by HSE. Loss of fuel and contaminants from bunds 15 There was significant loss of secondary containment related to the bunds on the HOSL West and BPA sites. Investigators have not been able to gain access to every part of the sites, in particular to some of the bunded areas, because of continuing safety concerns. It has been possible, however, to identify some key issues related to the condition of the bunds after the fire. A more systematic examination of the bunds will be completed only when it is safe to do so, following final removal of product from a number of pipework sections. 16 While the bunds substantially remained standing throughout the incident, their ability to fully contain the fuel and fire waters was lost as a result of the explosion and subsequent fires. Figure 3 shows the damage caused to bund walls as a consequence of the incident. Pools of fuel were burning in the bunds as a result of loss of fuel from the tanks, along with fires from the tanks themselves. Figures 4 and 5 show a bund, where the concrete panels had been infilled with a joint sealant. This sealant has been lost as a result of the fire and/or hydraulic pressure within the bund. The Buncefield Investigation: Second progress report 7 Figure 3 Figure 4

The Buncefield Investigation: Second progress report 8 Figure 7 Figure 8 Figure 5 Figure 6 17 Many of the bunds around the site have suffered varying degrees of sealant damage. Figure 6 shows fire water and product leaking from such a joint in the later stages of the incident. 18 Another two leakage mechanisms can be seen in Figure 7. Here a corner joint has opened up, releasing fire water and product. Visible along the lower edge of the bund wall, a ‘tide mark’ shows where liquids were seen to seep through the concrete itself. 19 Figure 8 shows the base of a bund where the concrete panels have undergone significant ‘heave’ which has resulted in the escape of product and fire water.

20 Figure 9 shows the inclusion of penetrating pipework in the construction. Here the sealing material surrounding the pipes has been lost. Loss of contaminants from the site 21 There was extensive loss of tertiary containment and large amounts of contaminant went off site. The burning fuel formed an extensive plume of smoke. Ground and water contaminants include fuel and products of its degradation in the fire – hydrocarbons and polycyclic aromatic compounds (a group of chemicals commonly found in residues from burning coal, fuel and oil). 22 Some fire-fighting foam concentrate contains zinc (to act as a heat resistor) and a chemical called perfluorooctane sulphonate (PFOS), which is a surfactant to aid the spreading properties of the foam. Zinc and PFOS are useful tracers for the movement of fire-related contaminants off site. 23 There are lagoons on the site which provide a reserve of fire water for use in emergencies. One of the lagoons (to the north of bund A) shows evidence of significant damage to the lining that may have resulted from the explosion or the fire. 24 As a result of the breach to the lining, some of the liquids in the lagoon, which included contaminated run-off liquids from the bunds and fire fighting, may have escaped into the ground. The natural clay layer beneath the site would have helped to minimise the extent of any contamination of the ground from this source. 25 The pumphouse to the north of bund A, adjacent to the lagoon, was destroyed by the explosions. The control of water on the site was dependent on the use of the pumps located within the pump house. Because the initial explosions destroyed all of the fire-fighting equipment in the affected area, the lagoons were never brought into use and the fire services had to establish alternative arrangements. The Buncefield Investigation: Second progress report 9 Figure 9 Figure 10

26 During the incident, the internal roadways were submerged by fire water and fuel flowing to the lowest point. Fire water and fuels flowed through the site drainage and along the roads within the site perimeter. At the low point on the site perimeter the flows overtopped the road edge, which was not kerbed, and flowed into Cherry Tree Lane. The Buncefield Investigation: Second progress report 10 Figure 12 Figure 11 The three parallel bars show where the pumphouse stood before the incident

27 A large pool of liquid, consisting of fire water and fuels that escaped from tanks and pipes, collected in Cherry Tree Lane. It is estimated that this pool was 200 m in length and between 10 and 20 m wide. Road tankers removed the liquids in the pool by the first week in January this year. 28 The investigation has highlighted a number of potential pathways by which fuel and contaminated water could have entered the environment. Within the site, shallow boreholes of 4-5 m depth exist within the terminal, and a deep borehole is located in the Chevron/Texaco tanker park, directly due south of the HOSL and BPA sites that were on fire. This borehole is 42 m deep, extending into the chalk layer. 29 A number of places where contaminants could penetrate the ground have been found around the perimeter of the site: on the northern and southern verges of Cherry Tree Lane; on the western verge of Buncefield Lane; and the southern verge of Hogg End Lane. These drains and chambers were either submerged in fire water and fuel or had drains connected to them that delivered such contaminants. 30 Cherry Tree Lane has a number of road drains, some of which are connected to deep chambers. At the bottom of one appears to be a borehole at least 40 m deep penetrating the chalk aquifer. For a description of the local geology and aquifer, see paragraph 41. The Buncefield Investigation: Second progress report 11 Figure 13

  1. 2 Monitoring environmental impact

Air quality 31 Monitoring air quality impact of the incident was carried out by a number of organisations. The Health Protection Agency was chiefly responsible for organising the air quality monitoring in the vicinity of the Buncefield site. The Agency received the support of HSL and, via the Hertfordshire Fire Brigade, the London Fire Brigade Scientific Advisers. A Meteorological Office (Met Office)/Natural Environment Research Council aircraft also sampled the plume. This was supplemented by local monitoring organised by the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (DEFRA). DEFRA’s Automatic Urban and Rural Network (AURN) and local authority air monitoring networks monitored the impact on air quality over the wider region of southern England, including London. French regional air networks monitored potential impacts in northern France. In addition, the Met Office carried out modelling of the plume and DEFRA’s air quality information service published regular reports on air quality. The Environment Agency also carried out modelling of the short range impacts in support of the Met Office, which was used by the Health Protection Agency in part to develop the strategy for subsequent sampling of grass and soil. 32 DEFRA is planning to publish a report on Air quality impact of the Buncefield Oil Depot explosion in May. This report will describe the monitoring carried out in England and France during the incident, and assess the air quality impacts. It will also describe the modelling of the plume and estimate the emission of pollutants released in the fire. This will inform the considerations as to whether the Buncefield incident will be designated a major accident to the environment (MATTE) under COMAH as a result of the impact of the smoke plume. 33 DEFRA is keeping the Board informed of progress with its findings. DEFRA’s website can be found at www.defra.gov.uk. The Health Protection Agency is also keeping the Board informed of progress of its findings. HPA’s website can be found at www.hpa.org.uk. Surface water 34 Extensive sampling of surface and ground waters around the site has been carried out to assess the environmental impact of the incident. Samples of liquids and contaminated soils have been sent to Environment Agency laboratories around the country for analysis. 35 Surface water monitoring has concentrated on the River Ver, as it receives surface water from the Buncefield site. Two balancing tanks (which provide buffers to prevent uncontrolled surges of water), the Maylands and Redbourn lagoons, receive surface water from the site and the surrounding area, and subsequently discharge into the River Ver. 36 The River Ver was monitored daily in the first two weeks after the incident. Two sites, one upstream and one downstream of the Maylands tank outfall, were tested. The balancing tanks and outfalls were also subject to daily sampling and analysis. The initial focus was on potential fuel and fire-fighting foam contamination which could impact on the ability of fish and other organisms to live in the river and on drinking water. 37 Two additional monitoring sites were added at the end of December, both on the River Colne, which is a tributary of the River Ver. These were both south of St Albans, 7 and 11 km downstream of the Maylands outfall. All of these points were sampled for PFOS. The Buncefield Investigation: Second progress report 12

The Buncefield Investigation: Second progress report 13 N St Albans Hemel Hempstead 0 1000m 2000m 3000m 4000m 5000m Ver at Gorehambury Ver at St Michaels Bridge Ver below Park Street Ver above Colne Redbourne Tank Outfall Effluent River Ver Urban areas Rivers Redbourne Road Tank Maylands Tank Maylands Outfall Figure 14 38 No direct impact of spills was found in the first days after the incident. By the third day of the incident, detectable but low concentrations of PFOS were noted in the balancing lagoons, at the Maylands outfall and in the River Ver downstream of the outfall. In addition, there was an increase in zinc above background concentrations. 39 PFOS was identified at all monitoring points, including in the River Colne. The PFOS concentrations, however, were less than the provisional water quality threshold concentration specified by the Drinking Water Inspectorate (DWI) and no identifiable environmental consequences have been observed in the river habitat. 40 Levels of PFOS started to drop in the River Ver in the middle of January, falling below detectable limits in February. The flow of water from the Maylands outfall stopped in February. However, the water that remains within this lagoon has low concentrations of PFOS.

Ground water Geology 41 The Buncefield Depot and the immediate surrounding area are positioned on a variable layer of clay with flints over Upper Chalk. The clay with flints layer is classified as a low permeability surface deposit and is believed to be present at a variable thickness of between 2 and 10 m. This layer should inhibit the vertical and lateral migration of contaminants and protect the chalk aquifer below, where present in sufficient depth. 42 The Upper Chalk is classified as a major aquifer, which provides water supplies regionally. The Depot is located within the catchment of a ground water abstraction point located to the south and east of the depot. Ground water is present typically at a depth of 45 m below ground level and flow is generally towards the south- east. Natural holes in the chalk rocks, which allow quicker than normal water migration, may be present, but none have been positively identified in the Buncefield area. Ground water is water held naturally in the chalk rocks underground. This can be abstracted for drinking water and other purposes. 43 Regional ground water in the vicinity of the Buncefield site flows to the south east but there are possibly some local variations or preferential flow along dry valleys that may put Bow Bridge, Mud Lane/Holywell and Hunton Bridge pumping stations at a higher risk of contamination. Monitoring 44 Ground water and ground water abstraction boreholes have been monitored up to 9 km surrounding the site. These include six pumping stations operated by Three Valleys Water Company, two private boreholes and a number of Environment Agency monitoring sites. 45 Three new observation boreholes have been drilled closer to the Buncefield site to provide early detection of any ground water pollution: Butlers Farm (between Buncefield and Bow Bridge Pumping Station); Breakspear House (south of Buncefield); and Hogg Lane (on the east boundary of Buncefield – see Figure 16). This is part of an ongoing monitoring regime that will provide further boreholes surrounding the site. They have each been sampled once, along with drinking water boreholes, and analysed for pollutants. The Buncefield Investigation: Second progress report 14 Figure 15 Picture of Maylands Tank outfall into River Ver

N St Albans Hemel Hempstead 0 1000m 2000m 3000m 4000m 5000m Plaistowes Farm Marlows, HH Hunton Bridge, Watford Holywell Mud Lane Bowbridge, St Albans Bricket Wood BH1 102 Butlers Farm BH1 103 Westwick Row BH1 101 Hogg End Lane Piccots End, HH Nash Mills, Sappi Ground water PS 3V Urban areas On site and new boreholes Ground water private boreholes Rivers The Buncefield Investigation: Second progress report 15 Figure 17 A new borehole at Cherry Tree Lane Figure 16 Map of ground water boreholes

Results of monitoring 46 It is too early to rule out potential contamination of the ground water, as it can take many months or years for water to drain through the ground into the chalk aquifer. Overall, the results received to date do not suggest any identifiable contamination pattern which is directly attributable to pollution from the incident. 47 A limited number of results have indicated the presence, at limits just above detection, of PFOS and other contaminants such as oil or polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons. These results need to be considered in relation to the overall picture for the whole of the aquifer, especially as the ground-water flow has not been established. 48 The 42 m deep borehole located on the Chevron/Texaco lorry park on the Buncefield site, south of HOSL West has been sampled (see paragraph 28). Initial results indicate fuel is present at low concentrations. It is not yet known if this contamination is historic or a result of the incident. Investigations continue. 49 The four points of ground penetration around the perimeter of the site reported in paragraph 29 are being investigated. Some of the chambers and deep boreholes associated with these entry points may contain contaminants from the incident. Drinking water 50 The closest drinking water abstraction point to the Buncefield site is the Bow Bridge pumping station approximately 3 km due east. Drinking water was not being pumped from here prior to the incident and the station remains out of operation as a precautionary measure. As a further safeguard, non-return valves have been fitted to prevent any possible backflow of water from the site. Changes have also been made to the supply arrangements to ensure drinking water supplies are maintained. The other drinking water abstractions are located in a ring around Buncefield at a distance of more than 5 km. 51 Water supply in the area is the responsibility of Three Valleys Water Company which has the detailed operational knowledge required to manage the local response. The regulation of drinking water quality is the responsibility of DWI. 52 Three Valleys Water Company and DWI are working closely together to ensure that drinking water supplies remain of the highest quality. Water companies treat and monitor the quality of water before it is distributed to the public as drinking water, thus providing reassurance of its quality. Land investigations 53 Investigations to assess the extent of land contamination started in February 2006 along Cherry Tree Lane. Trial pits were excavated at points along the Lane and on site and a number of samples taken for laboratory analysis. The locations of the trial pits are indicated in Figure 18. 54 The initial findings indicate that the surface layer of the soils, the top 30 cm approximately, was contaminated with fuel and fire-fighting products. No visible free product was detected in any of the trial pits at depth. PFOS, hydrocarbons and polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons have been reported in the laboratory analysis. The Buncefield Investigation: Second progress report 16

The Buncefield Investigation: Second progress report 17 N Cherry Tree Lane

C her ry Tre e Lane

Cherry Tree Lane

Buncefiel d Lane

Bun cefield Lane Green Lane

Green Lane

Boundary Way On site surface water On site ground water On site soil Figure 18 Location of trial pits Disposal of fire water 55 All contaminated fire water has been removed from the site and is being safely and securely stored at a number of sites around the country. Thames Water holds the largest quantities. There are approximately twelve million litres at Maple Lodge Sewage Treatment works near Rickmansworth and four million litres at Blackbirds Treatment near Radlett.

56 The disposal of these fire waters is the responsibility of the oil companies. The Environment Agency await definitive risk assessments from the companies on their proposed best practicable disposal options to avoid risk of contamination of the environment. 57 Rainfall will give rise to more contaminated water within the Buncefield site. This will be contained on site before being safely removed. 1.3 Progress with other aspects of the major investigation Acting on regulatory advice (Investigation term of reference two) 58 HSE issued an alert to fuel depot operators on 21 February 2006 in response to the first progress report to the Board, seeking a response from depot operators by Easter 2006. The Competent Authority has also begun a programme of depot inspections targeting the key findings in the first progress report. A report of the programme’s findings is expected in late May. This will be of importance in improving the control of major hazards at fuel depots. Working with others and communities (Investigation term of reference four) 59 Lord Newton has written to other agencies and authorities that may undertake reviews of the Buncefield incident. The investigation team is actively engaged with communities and businesses in the Buncefield area. See Part 2 of this progress report for further information on this aspect. Report to the European Commission (Investigation term of reference seven) 60 A report has been sent to the European Commission by the Competent Authority to discharge a responsibility under the Control of Major Accident Hazards (COMAH) Regulations 1999. The Buncefield Investigation: Second progress report 18

Part 2 Current business and community issues 61 Four months on from the incident, the local community is still facing a variety of difficulties. In these challenging circumstances both individuals and businesses have demonstrated remarkable resilience. 62 The incident has had significant impact on some individuals’ day-to-day lives, leading to changed circumstances, including in some cases unemployment. These factors contribute to heightened levels of stress and anxiety. 63 A number of properties that sustained significant structural damage are still being repaired, and in some cases residents are as yet unable to return home. 64 Many businesses forced to relocate away from Maylands Estate in the immediate aftermath of the incident are still facing challenges to deliver pre-incident levels of service. Some businesses based beyond Maylands have seen an associated drop in their levels of business. 65 The uncertain future of the Buncefield Oil Depot continues to cause concern to local businesses, employees and residents. 66 Dacorum Borough Council is working with community and voluntary sector organisations to provide a wide range of services, including advisory and training, to people affected by the incident. Business advice and support is being provided by both the Council and Hertfordshire Chamber of Commerce. 67 Board members have also met with local residents at Woodhall Farm and at Leverstock Green and will repeat the exercise at Adeyfield. A meeting with the Maylands business community will take place in April. The investigation team and Members of the Board have also met with representatives from Dacorum Borough Council, St Albans District Council and Hertfordshire County Council, as well as with Mike Penning (the local Member of Parliament), local councillors, Hertfordshire Police and Hertfordshire Fire and Rescue Service. 68 The investigation team and Dacorum Borough Council are working to ensure progress with the investigation is widely available to residents and businesses. Details of the first progress report were explained in Council newsletters to residents and business, such as Dacorum Digest, Buncefield Update and Business Update. The investigation team will continue to look for new and more effective means of communicating with people and businesses affected by the Buncefield incident. 69 An Investigation website contains useful information about the Investigation and the Board at

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